Week Ending January 10, 1998

X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 03:20:40 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: You can't hit me! 
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At 04:00 PM 1/3/98 -0800, Captain Spith wrote: 
>   ...In 'Combat'.  Skill levels can be stated to be continually 
>allotted in on configuration throughout a combat, or for that matter, 
>throughout every combat in a campaign, but when walking around town 
>shopping, the character would not have the DCV levels active, unless the 
>player were willing to keep track of every single phase of his 
>character's exsistance. 
 
I didn't see anything in the description which states that combat skill 
levels EVER go inactive.  I allocate them in a given fashion at the 
beginning of a Phase, and they stay that way until I reallocate them, 
whether that's 1 Phase, 1 Turn, or 1 year.  Those levels remain in existence 
whether I'm micromanaging my time (i.e. "in combat time") or not. 
 
> Combat Skill Levels (of which DCV is one) are for combat only (which 
 
As far as I can tell from the rulebook, CSLs are "for combat only" as much 
as Energy Blast is for energy attacks only.  They apply whenever and 
wherever they are needed, subject to allocation limits.  And since DCV only 
levels have only one valid purpose, they are automatically allocated when 
purchased -- there's no point to declaring where you're using them, since 
they can only be put in one place. 
  
> would include making any attack outside of an actual adversarial 
> situation), thus the character would still be at risk for a surprise 
> attack out of combat. 
 
The risks of a surprise attack out of combat are already represented by 
halving DCV (including the extra DCV from levels).  Sufficient levels can 
render even 1/2 DCV impassable. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Resent-Date: 4 Jan 1998 11:27:28 -0000 
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Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well  
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 11:27:28 +0000 
From: wish@dumain.PCUG.COM 
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>The Touch group definitely needs defining. That'd be: Pressure Sense, Heat 
>Sense, Pain Sense, and Balance Sense for the Touch Group, IMHO. Maybe even 
>Limb Location Sense - flashing this particular one would put Octopus Man in 
>deep trouble :-) 
Actually it would put anyone in trouble.  I saw a TV program a couple 
of months ago about a couple of people who had lost their awareness 
of the location of their body parts.  
 
Initially they were both confined to bed/wheelchair.  The younger one  
eventually managed to train himself to keep track of his limbs by sight 
but the initial effect was still fairly devestating. 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 98 14:02:50  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
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On Sat, 3 Jan 1998 22:15:33 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
 
>However, if you adjust STR cost, then you will balance non-super games 
>while unbalancing super games. Not a big benefit, given that most Hero 
>players still play Champions. 
 
I'd like to see some justification of this - the EC given earlier is 
not valid as you wouldn't have such an EC in a non-super game. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 06:48:00 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Music in Hero 
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At 12:24 PM 1/3/98 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>A few suggestions. Some skills should be done similarly to vehicles. 
>For example: Musician. Characters with Musician are musicians, and 
>automatically have familiarity with one instrument. Then, buy 
>Instrument Familiarity. For one point, you can use an instrument, for 
>two you can use an instrument family. You could do the same with 
>Chemistry, with Science Familiarity used the same way for various 
>types of chemistry. 
 
   It's time for me to come out of the closet as a musician.  Music was my 
major at college.  I play saxophone, flute, and bassoon, and have some 
familiarity with piano/keyboard and Latin percussion, as well as both sing 
(baritone) and rap.  I have done numerous compositions and arrangements, 
though only two compositions have ever been performed in public; I am 
considering, however, putting together a one-minute "theme song" when it 
comes time to do Chaos Theory and seeing if Bruce will put it on the Hero 
Plus disks. 
   With that, I can say that it would be much more realistic to treat 
instruments as languages, at least as far as familiarity goes.  For most 
games, they could just max out at a two-point level (since it's not a 
full-fledged language with nuances and slang and such), but the method of 
similarity runs very close to languages. 
   For example, I started with saxophone.  I started with alto and later 
went to tenor, expanding to baritone and soprano (this kind of thing could 
be considered different "dialects").  Moving to flute, I found that the 
fingerings were *almost* identical, and of course the embouchure (the way 
the player holds his mouth) was very different; it was like a language with 
four points of similarity.  Bassoon was rather different, with fingerings 
that essentially reversed hands for any given note, and I had to learn to 
read bass clef instead of treble, though many of the principles were 
different; this was like a language with 2 points of similarity. 
   In college, I had to learn the principles of clarinet in woodwind class; 
the embouchure is somewhere between saxophone and bassoon, and fingerings 
are like the sax for one register and like bassoon for the other (unlike 
most instruments, which has registers an octave apart, the clarinet's are 
one and a half octaves apart), so it was like having 3 points of similarity 
to each of those two.  I later took brass class and learned trumpet, which 
was quite different, with 1 point of similarity (if that).  [I never stuck 
with either instrument, and wouldn't be able to remember anything about 
them today, so I don't really count myself as a player.] 
   Piano and Latin percussion are things I just picked up along the way, 
and I am at best mediocre at them.  (Percussion, incidentally, tends to use 
a single-line clef with a slightly different notation system -- something 
like learning the Greek alphabet when you know the Roman one, but not as 
severe.) 
   Now, in all likelihood, an Instrument Familiarity chart like the one you 
propose, Filk, would be adequate for most campaigns, and one like the 
Lanugage Chart would only be called for where music was an important part 
of the campaign (not necessarily a Music Hero kind of game, but one where 
musicianship played a large role -- maybe one where the PCs are superheroes 
who are musicians in their Civilian IDs). 
   I might even be convinced to post an Instrument Similarity Chart on my 
website, if I could figure out how to do it. 
   (Betcha this thread's dead by next week....)   :-] 
   I tend to agree re: Chemistry, but would defer to a chemist. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 07:01:55 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
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At 05:35 AM 1/3/98 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>At 03:46 PM 1/2/98 -0800, Opal wrote: 
>?> I can't help but notice that God, in his infinite wisdom, has placed a  
>?> number larger than 3, but smaller than 5. This number also happens to 
>?> match the cost of plain-vanilla extra DC as bought in Martial Arts. 
>>  
>>Good Point, Martial Arts DC's should be 5pt each too!  
> 
>Wherefore? Martial Art "DC's" are really more extra STR with a limitation 
>"Only apply to Martial Arts (-1/4)" (after all, they can be applied to 
>non-damaging "exert" maneuvers).  They could only be considered to be worth 
>5 pts each if one is in favor of bumping up the cost of STR, which I didn't 
>think you were. 
 
   Pardon the nitpick, but Extra DCs are STR, 0 END, No Figured 
Characteristics, Only for Martial Arts.   :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: HayVern <HayVern@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 12:57:43 EST 
Subject: Re: Fantasy Magic - Skill Rolls 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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ust to add my two cents to this string.  
 
What I have done in my campaign to differentiate the types of magic, is used a 
system like this: 
 
There are three classes of magic users in my world. the first would be 
elemental type magic. I put restrictions on these characters much like what a 
magic user in D&D would have, No armor, and limited amount of metal that can 
be carried on their person, however I give these characters less restrictions 
in other areas to account for this. Normally in the terms of their spells 
having reduced End cost, and most of their spells are the most destructive and 
powerful. 
 
Next comes the clerical classes, which derive their powers from a diety, or 
some oher outside source. This usually requires a limitation that the 
character needs to be in his dietty's good favor. Thus a cleric of the god of 
mercy and healing that went around blasting people with firebolts from the sky 
would not be able to do that long. If I have a player who knows Hero system 
well. I often allow him to put his spells in a power pool, thus letting him do 
pratically anything he wants within his power framework. I also put the 
restriction of not wearing any metallic armor.  
 
The last type of power class I use in what I call Mentalist magic. These would 
be your classic Psionic character in D&D (First Edition Rules) These 
characters can have any type of spells they want, wear anytype of armor they 
want, but cannot wear any head gear while casting. They also have limitations 
od concentration, Increased END, and always a skill roll with side effects for 
failure. (Usually End loss, and a number of dice stun taken.) I usually allow 
them to have single phase casting times, and casting without incantations or 
gestures, or components. 
 
This system allows a player to do anything they want if they can justify it. 
In example, how would a mage that deals with elemental magic more than 
anything handle a healing spell? If a player could rationalize it to my 
satisfaction, then it couls happen.  
 
A clerical type character that wants to throw Lightning bolts, would be 
restricted in his healing capabilities because he would need to worship a god 
of war of some kind. But it could happen. 
 
A mentalist can justify about anything at all, but he needs to be aware that 
he's not going to be able to go spell to spell against a mage or even a cleric 
without some sort of help, or else he'll be laying on the groung panting from 
exhaustion while the mage slams him time after time with fire bolts. 
 
The one thing I learned about this system, is that for every restriction you 
give a character class, it is nice to allow them an advantage to overcome 
that, and this is especially true in the case of magic. 
 
If you tell a mage that he cannot wear armor, and can only weild a short sword 
or smaller, then he needs spells to defend himself. At the same time if you 
let a mentalist choose just about any spell effect he wants, and allow hime to 
wear plate mail armor, then his spells needs to be either weaker, or harder to 
come by. 
 
Just my two cents that actually take up five dollars worth. 
 
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 13:09:14 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
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On Fri, 2 Jan 1998, qts wrote: 
 
> >>Because it's the best and usual way of modelling it. Think about it: 
> >>suppose I was able to transport you to me just by saying, "Hastur! 
> >>Hastur! Hastur!" You'd be pretty inconvenienced, wouldn't you? 
> > 
> >I certainly would, especially with Hastur appearing at the same 
> >time.<G> 
>  
> By which time I'd have TPorted away, leaving you as the sacrifice :}. 
> Unfortunately Big H only appears when Betelgeuse (or is it The Hyades?) 
> is above the horizon. 
 
Nope, it's Aldebaran. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
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Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 14:20:36 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
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On Sat, 3 Jan 1998, Filksinger wrote: 
 
> >> Excellent. Then, without the "munchkiny" construct in question, 
> >> create a character who is truly invulnerable to all fire. 
> > 
> >Completely trivial. Buy enough rED only vs fire to be immune to 
> >whatever the maximum amount of fire you're even vaguely likely to 
> >encounter is, and call the special effects "true invulnerability to 
> >all fire". 
>  
> Unfortunately, what was asked for from the begining was true 
> invulnerability, 
 
Which is exactly what I provided. Read that last bit again. 
 
> not a sufficiently close approximation. Personally, I probably wouldn't 
> allow it in my campaign at all, but some people want it, and your method 
> doesn't actually give it. 
 
You apparently missed the rule about how special effects can allow 
minor benefits not directly represented by the mechanics. If you buy 
enough defense to stop 99.9999% of the appropriate attacks, being immune 
to that one-in-a-million shot is the minor benefit of the SFX "truly 
invulnerable". 
 
> >What "Density Reduction" problem? 
>  
> An argument that went through here recently was about how to create a 
> character with reduced density. Some people wanted "Shrinking, does 
> not get smaller". Others argued that you couldn't do this, and offered 
> various inadequate constructs, mostly based upon Desolidification, 
> none of which did a good job of simulating "styrofoam man". 
 
Err... try a low DEF and BODY. If there are supposed to be actual benefits 
to being made out of styrofoam or the like, tell me what they are and I'll 
tell you which mechanics I'd use to build them. 
 
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 14:26:08 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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On 2 Jan 1998, Opal wrote: 
 
>  > The only reason to keep the cost of Strength as is, is legacy.  That  
>  > is why it was not changed in the fourth edition, and that is why the 
>  > costs of other powers were not adjusted.  If this hypothetical 5th 
>  > edition is supposed to be "Hero done right", then the cost should be 
>  > changed to reflect its usefulness.  
>   
> Well the 5th Edition is supposed to be "Hero cleaned up a little but  
> basicly compatible with 4th Ed, because we still have a lot of old  
> 4th Ed stuff to sell..."  
 
Given that you could replace the cost of each characteristic with a 
random number and it wouldn't effect the compatibility of most 4th Ed 
products one single iota, I can't imagine what your point is. 
 
> Increasing the cost of STR will literally break the system ...  
 
STR _as it is_ breaks the system. How many times has this been 
demonstrated? 
 
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 14:29:26 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: You can't hit me! 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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On Thu, 1 Jan 1998, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
 
> >Please let me know of some other ways to simulate this "Karma" power. I 
> >know Icould of  bought her DCV levels but the ability I was looking for 
> >work when the character wasn't even thinking about it. 
>  
> And DCV levels don't?  To the best of my knowledge, unless you apply a 
> limitation to say otherwise, DCV levels are "persistent". 
 
They're skills, Vox. That pretty strongly implies that they require 
conscious use, even if they're technically classified as Persistent. 
 
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 14:37:44 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
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On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Lizard wrote: 
 
> There should be a way to summon specific individuals. Sorcerors call up 
> demons by name. The witches on 'Bewitched' could get Ben Franklin or Abe 
> Lincoln. (Which brings up another point -- can you buy Summoning with 
> Transdimensional to Summon beings from different times?) 
 
<shrug> That rule is there to prevent use of Summon as a cheap version 
of UAO Teleport... as far as I'm concerned, any character who's _only_ 
active in the campaign when Summoned isn't really a "specific character" 
for the purposes of this restriction. This should be more clearly spelled 
out, though. 
 
 
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 14:51:50 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
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On Sun, 28 Dec 1997, Bryce Berggren wrote: 
 
> (Bryce shakes off the fine coat of ashes that represent what's left of his 
> clothing after the dynamite exploded, Looney-Toons style). 
>  
> OK, I stand corrected. The desirability of changing STR's cost does not 
> have a consensus. 
 
I knew as soon as you said that that you weren't being precise. Now, if 
you'd just said "Amongst those whose arguments make any sense at all, it's 
near-unanimous that STR's cost needs to be changed", no-one could argue. 
 
And if anybody wants to take issue with that, I'm still waiting for an 
explanation for why high strength should be a Disadvantage. Please. 
Explain to me, in plain English, why it makes sense that a high STR 
costs fewer points that a low STR. 
 
> On the subject of HA ... I've been doing some thinking on this. Most people 
> think that keeping HA at 3 pts./die leads to ridiculously low active-point 
> costs (agreed). However, jumping it to 5 pts./die without changing STR's 
> cost results in penalizing players arbitrarily on concept 
 
I disagree. What we need is a HA at 5/die to complement HKA; players 
who don't need the damage-conversion ability of HA could just take  
STR, only to deal damage. 
 
> I can't help but notice that God, in his infinite wisdom, has placed a number 
> larger than 3, but smaller than 5. 
 
Well, yeah, but while costing it at Pi per die would be aesthetically 
pleasing, it might be annoying to calculate. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Double Energy per DC? 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 04 Jan 1998 14:03:59 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "SW" == Stirling Westrup <sti@CAM.ORG> writes: 
 
SW> The above sounds reasonable, and I've been using a very similar rule 
SW> for my own calculation. Just today though I noticed that on page 203 of 
SW> the BBB, 1 stick of Dynamite is listed as doing 5d6 EX while 2 sticks 
SW> do 7d6 and 4 sticks do 9d6. Whats going on here? 
 
What is going on is that "the above" ignores the fact that DCs are not 
linear.  Adding 1DC roughly doubles the energy: 10DC is roughly double the 
energy of 9DC; 20 Strength is twice the strength of 15 Strength. 
 
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
From: "Jeff O'Connor" <jtoc@msn.com> 
Subject: unsubscribe 
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 12:11:03 -0700 
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unsubscribe 
 
 
 
 
Reply-To: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com> 
From: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com> 
Subject: Re: Need help with an item 
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 15:33:37 -0500 
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I'd like to thank everyone for their ideas and advice.  I've got a much 
better idea now of how I'm going to deal with the problem of having wounds 
that can't be healed by artificial means. 
 
 
Lisa 
 
Reply-To: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com> 
From: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com> 
Subject: Re: Need help with Heromaker drivers 
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 15:50:05 -0500 
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<<I had to buy a new mouse because my old one decided to die on me.  I 
installed the new mouse following all the instructions and Heromaker doesn't 
seem to recognise it - I can't move the pointer around at all.  The new 
mouse is a StarMouse and I have the driver disk, but I can't figure out 
what's wrong.  Yeah, I know, StarMouse is a cheap one, but it was the only 
one that we had enough money for in an emergency.>> 
 
I just wanted to let everyone know that I got the mouse driver problem 
solved. 
 
 
Thanks!! 
 
 
Lisa 
 
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 13:03:31 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
Subject: Re: Derived stats 
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> << I'm refering to published stuff here, not web-page stuff.>> 
> 
>   Like I said, the Fuzion rules were changed slightly (or, the text was) after 
> the BGC book was printed. Some refinements were made. 
 
    Still not in my copy of Champions: New Millenium. 
It tells me I can trade option points for characteristic points. 
It never tells me how much it costs to buy up a derived stat. I had 
to wait for Alliances to find that. 
Actually, section 5 of page 116 almost seems to say that I can't even modify a 
primary stat. 
If my own common sense didn't correct for that typo, I'd be a heap of trouble. 
But I can see people thinking that means experience points can never be used on 
stats. 
 
 
-- 
Rook 
 
Super Hero Links Page: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
 
My Champions Webpage is at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Editor of the Super-Hero Networld project for Living Legends at: 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/liv_leg.htm 
 
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 04 Jan 98 13:11:02 -0800 
Subject: Knockback Table 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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To: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com>  
 r > Here's a multi-use table for determining Knockback and  
 r > throwing distances, which  
  
Thanks!  Hopefully I can put this to good use.  
  
BTW, why is it that doubling the amount of jules doesn't  
double the velocity?  
  
Doesn't an object going twice as fast have twice as much  
energy?  
  
I ask only out of physics ignorance...  :)  
  
--  
Opal  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"Michael Surbrook\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org> 
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 98 21:24:42  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 4 Jan 1998 13:09:14 -0500 (EST), Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
>On Fri, 2 Jan 1998, qts wrote: 
> 
>> >>Because it's the best and usual way of modelling it. Think about it: 
>> >>suppose I was able to transport you to me just by saying, "Hastur! 
>> >>Hastur! Hastur!" You'd be pretty inconvenienced, wouldn't you? 
>> > 
>> >I certainly would, especially with Hastur appearing at the same 
>> >time.<G> 
>>  
>> By which time I'd have TPorted away, leaving you as the sacrifice :}. 
>> Unfortunately Big H only appears when Betelgeuse (or is it The Hyades?) 
>> is above the horizon. 
> 
>Nope, it's Aldebaran. 
 
Yes, I was mixing him up with Cthugha 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 04 Jan 98 13:53:04 -0800 
Subject: Fantasy Magic - Skill Ro 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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 d >  
 d > Now the questions;  
 d > 1) I want Secular magic and Religious magic to have a different  
 d > flavour,> but if a player can make up his own spells, what is to prevent  
 d > Wizard  type character from having the exact same powers, advantages and  
 d > limitations as a Cleric type character?  How do I make the two  
 d > different enough that one can tell which type of magic is being used?  
  
You can require certain limitations - for instace a wizard might  
have to always use Incantations or Gestrues, while a priest would  
always need a holy symbol.  
  
The special effects can be different as well - wizard spells could  
come personally from the wizard (you can see the energy flowing  
from him), while priest spells have the power centered on a holy  
symbol or sacred area.  
  
Also, sence priest magick comes from the diety in question, you  
might give them a specific spell list.  If you want to go the  
D&D route you could give them healing spells and disallow wizards  
from designing such spells...  
  
 d > 2)  I am not sure I want to have the Skill roll limitation on  
 d > religious magic.  After all clerics are supposed to be representatives  
 d > deities, and it hardly looks good to potential worshippers if your  
 d > cleric powers fail.  
  
Well, if you still want it to be learned magick, you should keep  
the roll... perhaps the gods of your world are picky or simply  
don't hear prayers/rituals that aren't properly conducted.  
  
You might give priests a burnout roll instead - there powers work  
until they screw up in some way, then they have to perform some  
sort of atonement.  That way it's clear that it's the mortal vessle  
that failed, not the diety.  
  
 d > But If I remove the skill roll limitations then yo  
 d > wizard who can cast a spell that sometimes fails, and a cleric who can  
 d > the same spell and have it always work.  Why would anyone play the  
 d > wizard?  
  
Well, if you use one of the ideas above, Wizards can design thier  
own spells & priests just use what is orthodox to thier religion. 
 
That would balance out, I think.  
  
 d > single spell, still fumbling a simple light spell.  What I am looking  
 d > allowing characters to buy off the skill roll limitation with earned  
 d > experience.  All spells would start with a skill roll, but with  
 d > experienc= d > could become second nature.  I want to prevent characters 
fr  
 d >  
  
 d > 4) I like the flexibility of the hero system, and don=92t plan on  
 d > I need some way so that a fire  
 d > specialist, for example, would be better at fire magic that an  
 d > ordinary  
 d > spell caster?  
 d >  
  
Well, on one extreme, you could give him an Elemental Control.  
Or, you could just let him buy a 'Fire Magic' KS, and roll it  
as complementary to his Magic Skill - that way, he generally  
does better with fire-spells.  
  
 d > 5) Finally, What about skill rolls on linked powers.  To get the  
 d > want, some spells will require more that one power.  If multiple  
 d > linked, all with the skill roll limitation, does the player roll  
 d > multiple  
 d > relatively easy skill rolls or one much more difficult skill roll?  
 d >  
  
My guess would be one difficult one.  Usually, if you have to use  
several 'requires skill roll' powers in the same phase, the penalty  
on the second one is cumulative... (could be mis-remembering this,  
but I seem to remember coming up against it a few times).  
  
 d > Any help from the list would be greatly appreciated.  
 d >  
 d > Daniel Flacks      dflacks@ican.net  
 d > ---  
  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 04 Jan 98 14:10:06 -0800 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it rea 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 f > Try this. Roll damage for killing attacks as if they were normal  
 f > attacks, 1d6 per DC. Now, subtract the target's resistant defense from  
 f > the BODY of the killing attack. If the BODY gets through, then the  
 f > target subtracts only resistant defenses from the STUN. If the BODY is  
 f > stopped, then the target subtracts non-resistant defenses as well.  
 f >  
  
The only problem with this is that it would make KA clearly more  
effective than Normal Attacks:  When used against a target with  
all resistant def, a KA is identical to a normal attack, otherwise,  
it's better.  And, if you make 'Killing' an advantage, then normal  
attacks actually become better at killing normals (or, rather, there's  
a threshold based on the size of the advantage and PD/ED of the victim).  
  
For instance, if 'Killing' is a +1/4 advantage, then a 50 Apt EB,  
and a 50 Apt (8d) 'Killing' EB will both average the same 8 BOD of  
damage to a normal.  At higher active points the normal attack actually  
becomes more deadly, while at lower point levels, the difference is  
still small (4d 'K' EB will do 4 BOD, vs 3 for the 5d EB...).  Not  
a problem with buffed 4-8 PD/ED normals, though.  
  
 f > This will help simulate the effect pretty well, I suspect. A more  
 f > complex method would be to subtract the largest dice of damage from  
 f > the attack as their BODY is used up. Then, the BODY that gets through  
 f > does STUN without defenses, while the BODY that doesn't get through  
 f > does STUN with all defenses, resistant or not. After all, there is no  
 f > reason why the STUN  that corresponds to the BODY that gets through  
 f > should be resisted at all, as it is primarily the shock of the BODY  
 f > damage that creates the STUN.  
 f >  
 f > Filksinger  
 f > ---  
  
  
That second bit probably is too complex.  What level of Advantage  
would the KA be?  Or, if it should be 5pts/die, what's the downside 
 
that balances it?  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 18:14:47 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sat, 3 Jan 1998, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
 
> The cost-effectiveness of STR is real.  The balance is not; it's an illusion 
> created by mental inertia ("well, that's just the way it's always been 
> done") and overemphasis on superheroic/comicbook genres (for example, the 
> argument that "it's balanced against frameworks" goes right out the window 
> in a fantasy campaign that typically doesn't USE frameworks of any kind). 
 
Genre is irrelevant; that argument goes right out the window if you just 
think about it for a couple of seconds. If you break the system in two 
different places, it becomes fixed? Patently absurd. 
 
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 04 Jan 98 14:36:08 -0800 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 > >  
 > >Good Point, Martial Arts DC's should be 5pt each too!  
 >  
 > Wherefore? Martial Art "DC's" are really more extra STR with a  
 > limitation  
 > "Only apply to Martial Arts (-1/4)" (after all, they can be applied to  
 > non-damaging "exert" maneuvers).  They could only be considered to be  
 > worth  
 > 5 pts each if one is in favor of bumping up the cost of STR, which I  
 > didn't  
 > think you were.  
  
They don't cost END.  So tack on zero END.  Also, they can add to  
martial NND attacks (and any others with the 'STR doesn't add'  
element)... so they're more versatile than STR.  So, it would be  
more like STR 'doesn't add to figured Char -1/2' only for martial  
manuevers (-0 - because there are some martial manuevers that DCs  
add to, and STR deosn't) and 0 END +1/2.  
  
 > >Well, just for myself, I'm a Hero fanatic - it *should* be 5 Apts per  
 > >die!  Maybe HA, as written is worth 3 or 4 points - to me that just  
 > >means we need a better HA that would be worth the 5 Apts.  
 > >We all know the one I'd prefer.  :)  
 >  
 > If you were a "HERO fanatic", wouldn't the one you prefer be the one  
 > have? Seems to me you're a HERO revisionist. :/  
 >  
  
Darn, you found me out.  :)  
  
 > The plain fact is, the system doesn't need your HA write-up to  
 > function, and  
  
Of course not.  Doesn't need the current HA either (Hero did without  
HAs for almost 10 years, after all).  For that matter it doesn't  
need sepparate powers for Armor, Force Field, and Damage Resistance...  
  
 > your HA write-up has more than one unsightly burps (for one, there's  
 > reason to assume that HAs ARE "somewhat separate from the character"  
  
I Dumped that the last revision I posted.  :)  
I *do* take to heart what I hear on this list.  
Please point out mor unsightly burps!  
  
 > -- what  
 > about superdense skin or superspeed punches?) which makes the current  
 > version actually preferable to it.  
  
As far as I can see, it works flawlessly for both of those F/X  
(depending on how you visualize 'superdense skin' you might want  
a 'Beam' (have to come up with a better name for that one) Limitation).  
  
Just in case you haven't seen my current revision, here it is.  
*Please* do tear it apart and site any problems, either with the  
balance (is it worth 5 pts, is it balanced with EB & HKA?), or  
the wording, or anything else.  
  
Thanks in Advance!  
  
HTH Attack  
  
Hand-to-Hand (normal) Attack: A character with this Standard  
Power can increase the amount of normal damage he does in  
hand-to-hand combat. For 5 Character Points, the character  
can buy +1d6 HA. The HA must be defined as physical or energy,  
normalor stun-only. Strength adds directly to the damage of any  
type of HA just as it does with a hand-to- hand killing attack -  
no more than doubling the DCs of the attack. Alternately a small  
HA can be added directly to STR damage with any kind of striking  
maneuver as long as the HA is defined as doing normal physical  
damage with no advantages that would have to be extended to  
strength.  
  
Though it cannot be 'spread' in the manner of an Energy  
Blast, an HA can be manipulated to improve OCV at the price of  
damage. Each 1d6 of damage sacrificed gives a +1 OCV. Likewise,  
the power of an HA can be used to Block an opponent's attack. The  
character can be considered armed and has a +1 OCV per 3d6 of HA  
employed. If the character does not want to be able to switch  
dice of his HA to improving OCV, he can take the -1/4 'Beam'  
limitation.  
  
Hand-to-Hand Attack cost: +1d6 HA per 5 Apts, minimum cost  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58 * I am not a Rules Lawyer...I'm a Rules Activist.  
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org> 
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> 
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting 
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:47:51 +0000 
Subject: Re: Double Energy per DC? 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
So Sayeth Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net&> 
 
> >>>>> "SW" == Stirling Westrup <sti@CAM.ORG> writes: 
>  
> SW> The above sounds reasonable, and I've been using a very similar rule 
> SW> for my own calculation. Just today though I noticed that on page 203 of 
> SW> the BBB, 1 stick of Dynamite is listed as doing 5d6 EX while 2 sticks SW> 
> do 7d6 and 4 sticks do 9d6. Whats going on here? 
>  
> What is going on is that "the above" ignores the fact that DCs are not 
> linear.  Adding 1DC roughly doubles the energy: 10DC is roughly double the 
> energy of 9DC; 20 Strength is twice the strength of 15 Strength. 
 
Um. The "the above" that you elided specifically stated that DCs are not  
linear.  What I wanted to know was why if +1 DC is double energy, 2 sticks of  
dynamite are listed as 3 DCs higher than 1 stick???  As I see it, the  
possibilities are: 
 
1) We're wrong about +1 DC being roughly 2x energy. 
2) The table for explosive damage was calculated wrong. 
3) There is something subtle going on that I missed. 
 
Frankly, I suspect #2, but I thought I would ask the list just to make sure it  
wasn't #3. 
 
--  
 Stirling Westrup  |  Use of the Internet by this poster 
 sti@cam.org       |  is not to be construed as a tacit 
                   |  endorsement of Western Technological 
                   |  Civilization or its appurtenances. 
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 04 Jan 98 14:49:10 -0800 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 > From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>  
 >  
 > At 07:48 PM 1/2/98 -0800, Opal wrote:  
 > >Whoa! Stop!  Think about this for a minute:  you know how people  
 > >are always saying STR is over-priced?  That's because they haven't  
 > >looked at EC.  Power Frameworks (esp EC) are needed to keep the  
 > >game balanced.  You could do away with them in a total re-write  
 > >(like Fuzion), but otherwise, it's a bad idea.  
 >  
 > Wrong-o. This person who's said STR is over-priced HAS looked at EC,  
 > and also found it wanting.  
  
So, STR is broken because it saves you pionts and EC is likewise  
broken because it saves you points...  
  
I can see how this can be distasteful, but it is balanced.  
  
 > Remember, Power Frameworks are ALREADY an optional rule  
  
In the sense that all the rules are....  
  
 > (they only apply to superheroic campaigns, usually), so they're a  
 > pretty p*ss-poor way to keep the game balanced.  And at least  
  
Well, in the typical Heroic level games that disallow Power  
Frameworks, you have Characteristic Maxima as well, so the  
cost of STR is increased in the absence of EC.  Sounds reasonably  
well-though out to me.  
  
Of course, any GM is free to set campaign guidelines that aren't  
perfectly balanced - such as doubling the cost of STR while  
allowying power frameworks, or dis-allowing EC in a superhero  
game.  But, the 'default' games are pretty much balanced.  
  
 > Multipowers  
 > and VPPs have a functionality issue -- they can be considered very  
 > strange  
 > forms of "power limitations", insofar as they actually create a  
 > mechanical  
 > difference in the way you're allowed to use your Powers.  
  
True, though how significant that is with attack powers depends  
on how you interpret the rules.  
  
> ECs are just freebie point break.  
  
Not quite free - the powers have to 'fit' the F/x - only a minor  
restriction but it's there.  Likewise, the point savings from STR aren't  
free, you get a specific set of characteristics for each 5 pts.  So in  
both cases you trade some versatility in character design for a point  
discount.  
  
So yes, you could eliminate ECs, bump the cost of STR, and probably,  
restrict other Power Frameworks.  But then, you'd have a game very  
different from Hero - and rather similar to Fuzion.  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: You can't hit me! 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 04 Jan 1998 18:03:10 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "VL" == Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> writes: 
 
VL> I didn't see anything in the description which states that combat skill 
VL> levels EVER go inactive. 
 
Again, technically speaking, a character's CSLs must be allocated at the 
start of the character's action phase.  The implication here is that combat 
skill levels that are not allocated at this time are not allocated at all. 
 
Again, however, CSLs that may be applied to only a single factor of combat, 
be it a character's Energy Blast or his DCV, never anything else, it is not 
unreasonable for the player to inform the GM that those levels are always 
applied unless otherwise specified. 
 
As for the applicability of CSLs out of combat time, by the book they do 
not apply, as they require a 0-phase action to allocate. 
 
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Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 04 Jan 98 15:06:12 -0800 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 > From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>  
 > >Sure, it doesn't *seem* balanced if you compare it to EB or a  
 > >hypothetical 5Apt HA, but that's because it's not a power... it's  
 > >a characteristic, and one that's effectively bundled with other  
 > >characteristics.  Compare the point saving you get with STR to  
 > >those you get with EC.  Then compare the potential range of what  
 > >you can get with a STR based character vs an EC based one.  
 >  
 > 1) ECs are pure point crocks that arguably in and of themselves abuse  
 > game balance, AND they're an option that does not apply to all campaigns;  
 > STR, as the first Characteristic on your sheet, is EVERYWHERE. ECs make a d  
 > lousy defense for STR's cost.  
 >  
  
ECs are not an optional rule, except in the sense that all the rules  
are optional.  Those games that disallow Power Frameworks also,  
increase the cost of STR (automatic Characteristic Maxima).  So  
balance is maintained.  
  
The idea that 'ECs are a point crock' ignores the cost breaks inherent  
in characteristics.  The idea the STR is overpriced ignores the costs  
breaks inherent in ECs and ther versatility of other Power Frameworks.  
  
Yes, a game with no Power Frameworks, and increased STR cost would  
be balanced.  It would even be balanced on a simpler level - you  
wouldn't have inexperienced players builing highly inefficient  
characters, for instance.  But, I really don't think such a radical  
change is called for, considering that the current setup is also  
balanced.  
  
 > 2) STR doesn't *seem* balanced because it mathematically contains more  
 > points worth of powers than its own cost, even *moreso* than an EC  
 > would.  
  
It's also much more restrictive than an EC - you get a big point  
discount, but you always get the same set of characteristics for  
it.  With ECs you can have a braoder menu to choose from...  
  
 > Or, in other words, because it's NOT balanced.  As John D. Barrow puts  
 > it,  
 > mathematics is the analogy that never breaks down; that's kinda why  
 > the vast  
 > majority of RPGs are based on it. :]  
  
Points in a game system don't follow simple mathmatical principles,  
if they did, a character who put all 250pts into stretching, or  
Recovery, or ED, would be perfectly balanced with a character who  
bought a more ballanced set of abilities.  Why?  Is the game inherently  
flawed?  No.  The mathematical criteria you're using are inadequate -  
you need to consider things like diminishing marginal utility.  How  
much a power or stat is 'worth' to a character depends on what else  
he has:  If STR is so underpriced, how come there are so many non-  
brick characters out there?  
  
Now, if you could buy down any number of figured characteristics -  
the way you could in 1st Ed, STR would be ginuinely underpriced,  
but you can't.  We're arguing over a problem that was fixed years  
ago.  
  
  
  
  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 04 Jan 98 15:32:14 -0800 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 > >> 1) More to the point, the usefulness of figured CHAR doesn't  
 > >> disappear just because "I didn't want that".  A point is a point is  
 > >> point (or at least, it should be if points are supposed to mean'  
 > >> anything).  
 > >  
 > >Yep.  And a character with 60 pts of Stretching is as effective as  
 > >a character with 60pts of TK...  
 >  
 > If you've read my posts, you'd know I'm vehemently in favor of  
 > cheapening Stretching, for the exact same reason: points should be reasonab  
 > consistent.  You're just using one demonstrably broken bit to defend  
 > another demonstrably broken bit.  
 >  
  
Fine, if 'a point is a point' then a character who puts *all* his points  
into STR should be superior to all other possible character, because  
he's taken the biggest point crock to it's maximum potential.  Yet,  
this is clearly not the case.  
  
It's important for a character to be reasonable well-rounded, STR  
gives you a cheap, defined package of abilities.  You sacrifice  
versatility.  The same is true, to a lesser extent with EC.  
  
 > > > more accurate to say that "STR pays for itself, it just does so in  
 > > > currency of high figured CHAR".  
 > >  
 > >Actually, it does, because you can't buy down more than 1 Figured  
 > >Characteristic.  STR is a package deal.  An even more restricted one  
 > >than EC (EC can have anything in it as long as the F/X are  
 > consistent)  
 > >STR always gets you precisely the same thing).  And the point savings  
 > >for STR and EC are similar.  
 >  
 > Of course, STR is even BETTER than an Elemental Control:  
 >         [1]        1 pt. EC: Strength-Like Abilities  
 >         [1]        a) +2 PD  
 >         [3]        b) +2 REC  
 >         [4]        c) +5 STUN  
 >         [1]        d) +2" Superleap  
 >         [5]        e) +2d6 HA  
 > Total Cost= 15 pts.  
 >  
  
So EC dosen't simulate STR.  Big deal - does STR give you Flight?  
Desolidfication?  Invisibility?  No.  It's less versatile a construct  
so it saves you more points.  Mind you, not a lot more.  The EC  
above is an insane construct.  
  
 > EC is*already* a pure point crock (i.e. "points for nothing"), which is why  
 >  
  
Listen to your self:  EC is a point crock!  STR is overpriced!  
  
 > >HA absolutely belongs as an attack power.  Mind you, not as it's  
 > >written now - where all it ever does is increase your STR damage.  
 > >Rather, an apropriate 5 Apt HA would fill in the normal-damage  
 > >equivalent of HKA - with STR adding to the HA.  HA's that merely  
 > >add to STR would be a special case of HA - one that does simple  
 > >normal physical damage (as opposed to Energy, AP, etc..)  
 >  
 > The problem is that "HAs that merely add to STR" isn't a special case,  
 > it's the default, the most common application.  To me, the fact that you  
  
Better to have a balanced 5Apt power that can represent both 'the  
most common application' and less common ones.  Than a broken, 3pt  
one that can only do the former.  
  
 > There are basically two reasons to desire a more independent HA power.  
 > first is the ability to get no-ranged energy attacks; this is already  
 > covered by EB, No Range.  The second is due to the awkwardness of  
  
Doesn't cut it.  Why should you have to buy more dice of a no  
range EB, than an HKA to get the same DC's?  This, alone justifies  
the existance of an HA.  
  
 > buying  
 > Advantages on HA; I see no reason why HA can not bear a similar  
 > restriction  
 > on Advantages relative to STR that Damage Resistance does to its own  
 > part-and-parcel partner characteristics PD & ED.  
 >  
  
That is a reasonable change to make to HA, and one that I have seen  
a few times.  
  
 > >The cost-effectiveness of STR is absolutely real.  It's just  
 > >balanced in the context of the system as a whole...  
 >  
 > The cost-effectiveness of STR is real.  The balance is not; it's an  
 > illusion created by mental inertia ("well, that's just the way it's always  
 > done")  
  
Obviously, as someone who frequently proposes changes to the system,  
I'm not just a knee-jerk defender of the status quo.  If there was  
a real problem with STR, that increasing the cost would fix, I'd  
be all for it.  
  
Frankly, even if you want to re-balance the system to eliminate  
point crocks, upping the cost of STR wouldn't be the way to go -  
dropping the figured characteristics would.  That way STR keeps  
the 5 Apts per DC standard.  
  
 > argument that "it's balanced against frameworks" goes right out the  
 > window in a fantasy campaign that typically doesn't USE frameworks of any  
 > kind).  
  
And that does impose Characteristic Maximums.  I think the window is  
intact on that one.  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 04 Jan 98 15:34:16 -0800 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 > At 04:57 PM 1/2/98 -0800, Opal wrote:  
 > >And, how do I deliver a normal energy damage attack that my STR  
 > >adds to... You *can* do this with Killing Damage, why not  
 > >Energy? -  Because HA is the missing power, and STR doesn't  
 > >fill the bill  (STR can't do energy damage, doesn't fit  
 > >well in power frameworks - it's either disalowed or automatically  
 > >gets no fig characteristics, and putting Advantages like AP or  
 > >AE on STR can be problematical).  A version of HA that works  
 > >like HKA - STR adds to it - would certainly be viable.  
 >  
 > To be frank, I don't think you should be able to do it with HKA -- as  
 > say, "STR can't do energy damage", which I think is just plain common  
  
Well that certainly clarifies that bit of your objection...  So,  
we need to dump HKAs, Power Frameworks, and Double the cost of  
STR...  Anything else?  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58 
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 04 Jan 98 15:42:18 -0800 
Subject: Haymaker Revised 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 r >  
 r > An across the board STR boost for a Haymaker, say +10 STR for any  
 r > regardless of his STR stat, puts a real crimp in the damage potential  
 r > bricks.  My inclination is to modestly graduate the Haymaker boost,  
 r > that heroes with superhuman STR are so well practiced and so intensely  
 r > trained in the use of their inhuman might they can come significantly  
 r > to tapping their full muscle potential energy with a blow, unlike mere  
 r > mortals.  Call it a +10 STR boost for characters up to 20 STR, +15 STR  
 r > 40 STR, and +20 STR above 40 STR.  No Haymakers possible for those  
 r > STR.  And NPC beasts and animals regardless of STR don't get more than  
 r > a +10 STR Haymaker boost, unless they get to work out every day in a da  
 r > room.  
 r > Len Carpenter  
 r > redlion@early.com  
 r > ---  
  
  
You've been posting some of the most interesting stuff I've seen here  
in years.  Keep it up.  
  
It has been sugested that Haymakers add dice, like martial manuevers  
do.  This makes a great deal of sense when you think back to earlier  
editions of the game.  Both martial manuevers, and standard manuevers  
multiplied STR damage.  Martial Punch was x1.5 and Martial Kick x2,  
while Haymaker (and a long-gone manuever called Kick) did x1.5.  
  
Since Martial Arts have been modified, it makes since to do the same  
with Haymaker.  Martial Punches now do +2d, while Martial Kicks do +4.  
Logically, a Haymaker could do +2 dice.  I think it would be more  
fun to bring back kick and and have:  
  
Kick -2 OCV -2 DCV +2d  
and  
Haymaker -0 OCV -5 DCV, +4d, +1 segment  
  
or something like that....  It's been discussed a few times  
as '0pt' or 'everyman' martial arts manuevers.  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 04 Jan 98 15:45:20 -0800 
Subject: Characteristics Max Disa 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
To: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com>  
 r >  
 r > An open question to the mailing list:  Has anyone ever experimented  
 r > with enforcing the Normal Characteristic Maxima disadvantage for all  
 r > characters in a superhero campaign, regardless of origin?  I can see  
 r > a GM trying this in a campaign where he wants to enforce a grittier,  
 r > more street-level feel, or where he wants to better define the  
 r > boundary between the merely human and the superhuman.  
 r >  
  
Though I allow the Disad, I have never enforced it in a Super  
Hero game...  
  
 r >  
 r > Do any other powers seem underpriced with such a change?  How  
 
 
No, but you'd definitely want to dissallow Elemental Control, and  
probably other Power Frameworks as well, this will lead to simpler,  
'grittier' powered characters who probably have only one major  
power... instead of a menue of attacks in a Multipower or VPP or  
a set of potent abilities in an EC.  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 04 Jan 98 15:46:00 -0800 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>However, if you adjust STR cost, then you will balance non-super games 
>while unbalancing super games. Not a big benefit, given that most Hero 
>players still play Champions. 
 
 q> I'd like to see some justification of this - the EC given earlier is 
 q> not valid as you wouldn't have such an EC in a non-super game. 
 q> qts 
 
Well, all the Hero games that dissallow EC sofar, also require 
Characteristic Maxima, which has the effect of increasing STR 
cost... 
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 04 Jan 98 15:49:02 -0800 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  > edition is supposed to be "Hero done right",  
>  > then the cost should be 
>  > changed to reflect its usefulness.  
>   
> Well the 5th Edition is supposed to be "Hero cleaned up a little but  
> basicly compatible with 4th Ed, because we still have a lot of old  
> 4th Ed stuff to sell..."  
 
 t> Given that you could replace the cost of each characteristic with a 
 t> random number and it wouldn't effect the compatibility of most 4th Ed 
 t> products one single iota, I can't imagine what your point is. 
   
That the 5th Ed isn't going to be 'Hero done right'  and changing 
the cost of characteristics will change the point totals of all 
the characters built with those stats.  That will affect a *lot* 
of players....  and make the extant books 'less useful' (to people 
who care about NPC point costs, which may not be you or me, but there  
are some who do). 
   
> Increasing the cost of STR will literally break the system ...  
 
 t> STR _as it is_ breaks the system. How many times has this been 
 t> demonstrated? 
 
Never.  Sure, people complain about the point discount, but in all 
the years I've played Hero, I have never seen STR-based characters 
dominate a game.  I have seen problems with Mentalists, VPPs, and 
(of course) exotic power constructions, but never with bricks.   
(oh, and Powered Armor characters and Vehicles...) 
   
The only time bricks seem overpowered is when they dust off the 
Haymakers and start doing 15 and 18 dice. :)   
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 04 Jan 98 15:54:22 -0800 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 On 01-03-98 filkhero@usa.net wrote to All...  
  
 f > >At 09:21 PM 1/1/98 -0800, you wrote:  
 f > >>Additionally, the Hero System is supposed to be universal. In a  
 f > >>superhero campaign, a hero being hit with a Light Antitank Weapon  
 f > >>living may be acceptable, but it just doesn't cut it in a  
 f > >>campaign. Live, maybe, but minimal and no damage results get  
 f > downright  
 f > >>silly.  
 f > >  
 f >  
 f > Wilhelm the VIPER agent beads down on Joe the P.I. with his LAW  
 f > rocket. Joe has been a real pain in the butt recently and Wilhelm  
 f > isn't taking any more chances with him. He isn't the world's greatest  
 f > shot, but figures that with an anti-tank weapon, simply hitting Joe  
 f > should be sufficient. Wilhelm fires, and watches as the LAW rocket  
  
Well, not if you just hit him in the hand....  
  
 f > slams into Joe's shoulder.  
 f >  
  
OK, that's not the hand  
  
 f > Joe is wearing his trusty ballistic vest, made of the latest (real  
 f > world) Spectra material. It is worth 4 PD resistant, does not affect  
 f > STUN. Wilhelm's LAW rocket rolls a 6 in damage. The vest absorbs 2  
  
6?  on 4d Killing, that's a pretty lousy roll, heck that's the kind of  
damage a bullet normally does... maybe the darn thing failed to  
detonate, or something?  
  
 f > points of BODY. Because Joe has resistant defenses, his PD of six  
 f > resists the STUN damage and stops an additional 3 pts of STUN. Using  
 f > the Hit Location chart, we see that the missile does 4 pts BODY and 21  
 f > STUN.  
 f >  
 f > What was that about realism?  
 f >  
  
Realism is for people who want to go out on the battlefield and  
get hit by rocket launchers and heavy machine guns.  I'd rather  
play a nice, unrealistic RPG...  
  
 f > And I'm not. I like the option of having realism in my games if I want  
 f > it. If I told the player of Joe that, because of realism, his  
 f > character was dead, even after he saw my rolls, he would have the  
 f > right to be a bit ticked off. If I choose to run realistic campaigns,  
 f > I want rules to do so. Especially as I cannot determine what  
 f > non-realistic genre convention is being followed by allowing  
 f > occasional rolls to be ridiculously low. I don't recall many heroes  
 f > defined as physically normal shrugging off direct hits by anti-tank  
 f > weapons in _any_ genre. Colossus may be all right, but Cyclops would  
 f > not be.  
 f > Filksinger  
 f > ---  
 
 
Well, OK, that's your perogative.  There are plenty of more Realistic  
games out there than Hero System.  GURPS, for instance does 'reality  
checks' on any of it's rules that it can (obvioulsy they can't fire  
LAW rockets at people, but they do pretty well).  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 04 Jan 98 16:02:02 -0800 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 t> And if anybody wants to take issue with that, I'm still waiting for an 
 t> explanation for why high strength should be a Disadvantage. Please. 
 t> Explain to me, in plain English, why it makes sense that a high STR 
 t> costs fewer points that a low STR. 
 
It makes no sense, and it's not true.  If you want to buy up your  
STR it costs points.  Even if you buy down one of your Figured  
Charactersitcs.  There is no situation in which buying up STR will 
save you points - OK, there is one:  if you buy up *all* the stats 
that STR adds to, then buying more STR will save you points - but that's 
just an example of a badly designed character.  Just like if you 
were to try to build the Human Torch without using any kind of Power 
Framework.  Another way to think of it:  STR isn't underpriced, the 
stats it adds to are overpriced.  Anyway.  If you realy percieve it 
as a problem, the obvious solution is to stop give figured stats 
for STR (at least it keeps STR at 5 Apts/d6 like other attack powers) 
   
 t> I disagree. What we need is a HA at 5/die to complement HKA; players 
 t> who don't need the damage-conversion ability of HA could just take  
 t> STR, only to deal damage. 
 
Agreed.  STR is not the thing to go comparing HA to.  Whether its because 
you think STR is overpriced, or I think it balances with Frameworks.  
Either way, HA should be measured against other attack powers like 
EB and HKA. 
 
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 19:22:58 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, qts wrote: 
 
> >> By which time I'd have TPorted away, leaving you as the sacrifice :}. 
> >> Unfortunately Big H only appears when Betelgeuse (or is it The Hyades?) 
> >> is above the horizon. 
> > 
> >Nope, it's Aldebaran. 
>  
> Yes, I was mixing him up with Cthugha 
 
Uh... no, that's Fomalhaut. 
 
I can't find any listing for Betelgeuse in "Call of Cthulhu". 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org> 
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> 
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 02:31:40 +0000 
Subject: Re: Double Energy per DC? 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
So Sayeth Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net&> 
 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> >>>>> "SW" == Stirling Westrup <sti@CAM.ORG> writes: 
>  
> SW> Um. The "the above" that you elided specifically stated that DCs are 
> SW> not linear. 
>  
> I read it as "DCs are linear", at something like 50 or 100 Joules per DC. This 
> comparison is seriously flawed. 
 
The formula implied was that energy in joules = 50 * 2^(DC-1), this is not a  
linear function. 
 
> SW> What I wanted to know was why if +1 DC is double energy, 
>  
> It isn't; +1 DC is double the damage. 
 
I'm not saying that you're wrong, but what real-world units do you propose to  
measure damage in?  Myself, I don't think that BODY of damage rolled equates  
to the same thing real-world as BODY characteristic in a person/object, but I  
am interested in how they relate. 
 
> SW> 2 sticks of dynamite are listed as 3 DCs higher than 1 stick???  As I SW> 
> see it, the possibilities are: 
>  
> SW> 1) We're wrong about +1 DC being roughly 2x energy. 
>  
> As previously mentioned, +1 DC does not equal 2x energy, it equals 2x 
> damage. 
>  
> Damage is a function of energy; but that function squares the energy, so 
> the ratio is non-linear.  Working from the basic momentum formula 
> (F=0.5mv^2), if mass remains constant and you double velocity (thus double 
> kinetic energy) you increase momentum (damage) by a factor of the square root 
> of ((2v)^2-(v)^2) -- clearly not a 1:1 ratio. 
 
Actually, thats the basic Kinetic Energy formula, and its measured in Joules.  
Momentum is just mv and isn't important enough to have its own unit.  
However, you are right, and that is the reason that the throwing distances  
don't double with each +1 DC. That, however, is beside my point. My point was: 
 
The energy released by a single stick of Dynamite is some amount X. The  
amount released by 2 sticks is 2 X. Now, you claim above that +1 DC equals  
double the damage, and since the table on Page 203 of the BBB gives a  
difference of 3 damage classes between 1 stick and 2 sticks of dynamite, one  
gets the paradoxical effect that doubling the energy released octuples the  
damage inflicted. I, on the other hand, was equating each +1 DC with double  
the energy, producing the even-more paradoxical result that doubling the  
energy released octuples the energy released... Either way, something seems to  
be broken somewhere. 
 
Now, my guess is that the table on page 203 is just plain wrong. There are a  
number of places in the BBB where you can get evidence for a doubling of energy  
(or arguably damage) for every DC. Examples include: 
 
- The +1 Advantage for Area Effect Radius make sense, since it doubles the DC  
  of an attack and therefore squares the energy. 
 
- The amount of wall blown through doubles per extra BODY inflicted. 
 
No where can I see a justification for doubling the number of sticks of  
Dynamite adding 3 DCs to the effect. 
--  
 Stirling Westrup  |  Use of the Internet by this poster 
 sti@cam.org       |  is not to be construed as a tacit 
                   |  endorsement of Western Technological 
                   |  Civilization or its appurtenances. 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Fantasy Magic - Skill Rolls 
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 19:15:15 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Saturday, January 03, 1998 8:22 AM, dflacks wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>Todayís topic: Fantasy Magic 
 
<snip> 
>Now the questions; 
>1) I want Secular magic and Religious magic to have a different 
flavour, 
>but if a player can make up his own spells, what is to prevent a 
Wizard 
>type character from having the exact same powers, advantages and 
>limitations as a Cleric type character?  How do I make the two 
different 
>enough that one can tell which type of magic is being used? 
 
 
SFX is one. Limit certain Advantages to one character class, or 
certain types of spells. Require one or the other (or both) to take 
certain Limitations (Gestures could be for Secular magic, "Must be 
approved by Deity" for Religeous) 
 
>2)  I am not sure I want to have the Skill roll limitation on 
religious 
>magic.  After all clerics are supposed to be representatives of their 
>deities, and it hardly looks good to potential worshippers if your 
clericís 
>powers fail.  But If I remove the skill roll limitations then you 
have a 
>wizard who can cast a spell that sometimes fails, and a cleric who 
can cast 
>the same spell and have it always work.  Why would anyone play the 
wizard? 
 
It doesn't fail because of a failed skill roll, it fails because the 
God disapproves. This gives a different flavor. Use of Healing magic 
on a group of another god's worshipers might fail en mass, another 
group might be generally approved of. A combat is either approved of, 
so your spells work, or isn't, so they fail. Spells could be linked to 
a Detect that detects things your god approves/disapproves of, so if 
the spell fails, you know the target is X. 
 
>The power and influence of clerics would far outstip all others, and 
I do 
>not want to run a religously based  campaign.  I need a way to make 
secular 
>magic and religious magic different while keeping the two in balance. 
 
 
Religeous magic could have different limitations. If not, many people 
wouldn't play clerics because wizards, having limitations, have 
greater power. Additionally, some Advantages on cleric's spells might 
be required. This reduces the amount of power available while fitting 
a god. Difficult to Dispel comes to mind. "I can do nothing about this 
curse, my friend. You need a more powerful wizard than me to undo the 
work of a god." 
 
>3) I have a problem with an archmage capable of destroying a castle 
with a 
>single spell, still fumbling a simple light spell.  What I am looking 
at is 
>allowing characters to buy off the skill roll limitation with earned 
>experience.  All spells would start with a skill roll, but with 
experience 
>could become second nature.  I want to prevent characters from buying 
off 
>the skill roll on the most powerful spell while having their simplest 
>spells still fail.  Should all lower points spells have to be bought 
off 
>first?  Perhaps a limit on the maximum active point level that can be 
>bought off?  If so what limit? 
 
Try this: 
60   VPP Pool (60) 
15   Control Cost on 10 pts of pool, Cosmic 
17   Control Cost on 50 pts of pool, Requires skill roll to use (-1/2) 
(Note: This requires a skill roll to switch powers _and_ to use them 
in combat. This wizard will be well advised to adjust his pool to 
emergency combat powers when just wandering around.) 
 
Thus, you have a wizard who can do any 10 point effect at will, 
(though it may disturb other powers, forcing them to be rerolled 
before he can switch back), and can prepare with either time or a 
skill roll greater powers that require skill to control. 
 
>4) I like the flexibility of the hero system, and donít plan on 
restricting 
>characters to one college or school of magic, so I will not be using 
a 
>college system.  Never the less, if a player want to voluntarily 
restrict 
>himself to one special effect, he should get some compensation for 
the 
>increased vulnerability that entails.  I need some way so that a fire 
>specialist, for example, would be better at fire magic that an 
ordinary 
>spell caster? 
 
 
Better skill rolls. Additionally, magicians using fire magic have a 
small bonus on their VPPs because of the limit of only being able to 
create fire magic. Also, give specialists EC that match their 
abilities. A fire wizard could have defenses against fire, Life 
Support vs fire, the ability to detect fires, Clairvoyance, only to 
see and hear things near a fire, and the ability to attack people from 
their campfires. Lastly, allow some effects only if it fits a 
specialty. Indirect could be forbidden, for example, unless it fits 
your specialty. Thus, a fire mage's energy blast leaps from a fire, a 
water wizard's could shoot from a pool of water. Used with the 
Clairvoyance, it could be used to attack people within a castle. Other 
forbidden things might include Life Support or Summoning. 
 
>5) Finally, What about skill rolls on linked powers.  To get the 
effect I 
>want, some spells will require more that one power.  If multiple 
powers are 
>linked, all with the skill roll limitation, does the player roll 
multiple 
>relatively easy skill rolls or one much more difficult skill roll? 
 
 
GM call. Rule according to the effect you want. 
 
<snip> 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:45:29 EST 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 98-01-03 16:57:15 EST, ludator@mail.softfarm.com wrote:  
 
> At 07:33 PM 1/2/98 -0800, Opal wrote: 
>  >Sure, it doesn't *seem* balanced if you compare it to EB or a  
>  >hypothetical 5Apt HA, but that's because it's not a power... it's  
>  >a characteristic, and one that's effectively bundled with other  
>  >characteristics.  Compare the point saving you get with STR to  
>  >those you get with EC.  Then compare the potential range of what  
>  >you can get with a STR based character vs an EC based one.  
>   
>  1) ECs are pure point crocks that arguably in and of themselves abuse game 
>  balance, AND they're an option that does not apply to all campaigns; STR, 
as 
>  the first Characteristic on your sheet, is EVERYWHERE. ECs make a damn 
lousy 
>  defense for STR's cost. 
>   
>  2) STR doesn't *seem* balanced because it mathematically contains more 
>  points worth of powers than its own cost, even *moreso* than an EC would. 
>  Or, in other words, because it's NOT balanced.  As John D. Barrow puts it, 
>  mathematics is the analogy that never breaks down; that's kinda why the 
vast 
>  majority of RPGs are based on it. :] 
 
OK, I'm going to agree that STR is undoubtedly and mathematically provably 
overpriced compared to what one gets for it - and then I'm going to argue that 
this doesn't mean that the cost of STR should be changed. How's that for a 
neat trick?  
:-) 
 
There seems to be a lot of internal evidence floating around that the 
designers of HERO intended "packages" of abilities to be discounted by a 
little under 50% compared to the individual components bought 'a la carte' 
This applies not only to STR, but to the other primary Characteristics as well 
- and also to ECs. So if the cost of STR needs to be doubled for the sake of 
balance then so do the costs of *all* the other primary Characterstics.  
 
As I see it, the problem isn't to make the cost of STR (and other primary 
characteristics) 'balanced' since the imbalance is something built-in as a 
'feature' of the system. Rather, the problem is to discourage people from 
buying more STR than their character conception calls for while not 
restricting those whose concepts need the STR. My personal solution is to play 
with the END costs: I charge END for 'using' STR on every phase that a 
character is active in combat i.e. not at 1/2 or 0 DCV due to being out of 
combat, con-stunned, recovering, etc. - (I rationalize that characters in 
combat are using their full Strength to fling themselves about on the 
battlefield even if they aren't throwing punches.) I also double the advantage 
cost for buying down the END cost of STR (the same as the way Autofire is 
treated), and round *up* the END cost for odd STR scores (i.e. those that end 
in a '5'). 
 
I put a similar patch on Hand Attacks: In my campaign, Hand Attacks cost 5 pts 
per die, but cost no END to use (above the END cost of the underlying 
Strength). 
 
(For those of you who know how much I hate EC's and absolutely forbid them in 
my campaigns, a word of explaination: Partly it's a matter of EC's being too 
flexible, a 'non-package package' consisting of 'whatever the player can talk 
the GM into giving away.' But a large part of my antipathy toward EC's comes 
from their sheer ugliness, the way they push players toward choosing 'all same 
size' powers for no good reason I can see. Worse, they push players to *leave 
out* Powers that ought by rights belong inside the EC simply because the Power 
is of the 'wrong' size (i.e. too small). I find this last bit to be just too 
hideous to tolerate.) 
 
As for the argument that EC's are an option not generally allowed in Heroic- 
level campaigns: True. But in those campaigns STR costs twice as much 
Endurance to use (1 END/5 pts STR vs 1 END/10 pts STR in Superheroic 
campaigns) so Strength in Heroic games *is* more expensive than in Superheroic 
ones. Also, STR in Heroic campaigns is normally capped by a Normal 
Characteristic Maxima. 
 
Erol K. Bayburt 
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 19:49:02 -0800 
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On Sunday, January 04, 1998 1:20 PM, qts wrote: 
 
 
>On Sat, 3 Jan 1998 22:15:33 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
> 
>>However, if you adjust STR cost, then you will balance non-super 
games 
>>while unbalancing super games. Not a big benefit, given that most 
Hero 
>>players still play Champions. 
> 
>I'd like to see some justification of this - the EC given earlier is 
>not valid as you wouldn't have such an EC in a non-super game. 
 
 
You misunderstand. In fact, what you said is the basis for the 
argument. 
 
Case 1: If you have a game with frameworks, then STR is probably 
balanced by frameworks. 
 
Case 2: If you have a game without frameworks, then STR is probably 
unbalanced. 
 
If you correct STR to be balanced in case 2, then it will be 
unbalanced in case 1. If you set STR to be balanced in case 1, then it 
will be unbalanced in case 2. 
 
Assuming, of course, that STR's cost effectiveness equates to 
unbalancedness in the first place. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 22:52:10 -0500 
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net 
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood 
Subject: Re: Characteristics Max Disadvantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
Len Carpenter wrote: 
 
> An open question to the mailing list:  Has anyone ever experimented 
> with enforcing the Normal Characteristic Maxima disadvantage for all 
> characters in a superhero campaign, regardless of origin?  I can see 
> a GM trying this in a campaign where he wants to enforce a grittier, 
> more street-level feel, or where he wants to better define the 
> boundary between the merely human and the superhuman. 
 
  I ran a very successful campaign where I told the players to think of 
themselves as normals with powers. This was a super campaign with the 
emphasis on characters not powers. (I had a 40 AP max on powers). I got a 
swashbuckling fencer, a psychic detective, a self styled Ocean King, and 
sonic energy projector. None of them would I consider Super(the threats 
were equally powered down) The difference was really evident when I ran 
my Chrismas Crossovers(every year I let players bring their favorite PC 
from any of my campaigns to help save Christmas) These low powered 
characters were the favorites of their players even though they paled 
next to a standard superhero. 
 
 
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:54:57 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified) 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
><shrug> That rule is there to prevent use of Summon as a cheap version 
>of UAO Teleport...  
 
Heh. Summon isn't a cheap substitute for anything. For 30 points you get a 
single 0 point entity. That you don't even control. :-/ 
 
I want to summon a riding horse, that's what, 30+(97/5)= 50 points. Seems a 
bit too steep in my mind. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 20:04:24 -0800 
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On Sunday, January 04, 1998 2:27 PM, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
 
 
>On Sat, 3 Jan 1998, Filksinger wrote: 
> 
>> >> Excellent. Then, without the "munchkiny" construct in question, 
>> >> create a character who is truly invulnerable to all fire. 
>> > 
>> >Completely trivial. Buy enough rED only vs fire to be immune to 
>> >whatever the maximum amount of fire you're even vaguely likely to 
>> >encounter is, and call the special effects "true invulnerability 
to 
>> >all fire". 
>> 
>> Unfortunately, what was asked for from the begining was true 
>> invulnerability, 
> 
>Which is exactly what I provided. Read that last bit again. 
 
 
I read it. However, I wanted the character tournament legal, and this 
depends upon a GM judgement call. 
 
That is only true invulnerability if the GM so allows. If I dropped 
the invulnerable character into a fire so intense that it overwhelmed 
his defenses in spite of the initial design, then you might say, "He's 
invulnerable, so he isn't hurt", but many GMs wouldn't. Such a 
character is invulnerable as a practical manner, but not technically 
_unless specifically so indulged by the GM_. 
 
>> not a sufficiently close approximation. Personally, I probably 
wouldn't 
>> allow it in my campaign at all, but some people want it, and your 
method 
>> doesn't actually give it. 
> 
>You apparently missed the rule about how special effects can allow 
>minor benefits not directly represented by the mechanics. If you buy 
>enough defense to stop 99.9999% of the appropriate attacks, being 
immune 
>to that one-in-a-million shot is the minor benefit of the SFX "truly 
>invulnerable". 
 
 
The benefits of special effects are decided by the GM. Some GMs, given 
such a character, would refuse to allow the SFX to have that effect. 
Thus, he may be invulnerable in a particular campaign, but if I 
announced a tournament, a player bringing that character could not be 
assured that it would, in fact, be invulnerable. 
 
>> >What "Density Reduction" problem? 
>> 
>> An argument that went through here recently was about how to create 
a 
>> character with reduced density. Some people wanted "Shrinking, does 
>> not get smaller". Others argued that you couldn't do this, and 
offered 
>> various inadequate constructs, mostly based upon Desolidification, 
>> none of which did a good job of simulating "styrofoam man". 
> 
>Err... try a low DEF and BODY. If there are supposed to be actual 
benefits 
>to being made out of styrofoam or the like, tell me what they are and 
I'll 
>tell you which mechanics I'd use to build them. 
> 
 
Walking on rickety floors, always floats, falls slowly in atmosphere, 
resistant to being thrown or knocked back great distances in 
atmosphere (while being easier to knock back in the first place), etc. 
Sure, you could simulate those, and allow the more minor effects as 
SFX, but a number of people wanted a better method. 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
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>>>>> "JaRP" == John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> writes: 
 
JaRP> I want to summon a riding horse, that's what, 30+(97/5)= 50 
JaRP> points. Seems a bit too steep in my mind. 
 
Not when you figure that you do not have to worry about things like range 
or line of sight.  Summoning a 250-point entity costs what, 80 points? 
That is a lot cheaper and more accurate than attempting to teleport half- 
way around the world -- or across the galaxy. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
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>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
 
F> Case 1: If you have a game with frameworks, then STR is probably 
F> balanced by frameworks. 
 
Using frameworks as a benchmark is absurd; there is no basis for making 
such comparisons. 
 
Frameworks are, by their definition, unbalancing.  They "reward" a 
character because the player picked a coherent set of special effects for 
the character.  What makes them reasonable within a campaign is that most 
other characters also have frameworks, not their cost structure. 
 
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 20:23:11 -0800 
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On Sunday, January 04, 1998 2:28 PM, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
 
 
>On Sun, 28 Dec 1997, Bryce Berggren wrote: 
> 
>> (Bryce shakes off the fine coat of ashes that represent what's left 
of his 
>> clothing after the dynamite exploded, Looney-Toons style). 
>> 
>> OK, I stand corrected. The desirability of changing STR's cost does 
not 
>> have a consensus. 
> 
>I knew as soon as you said that that you weren't being precise. Now, 
if 
>you'd just said "Amongst those whose arguments make any sense at all, 
it's 
>near-unanimous that STR's cost needs to be changed", no-one could 
argue. 
 
 
Of suppose not. Such an argument is so severely biased that I would 
not expect to be able to argue with you, even if I considered my 
arguments to be perfect, unassailable works of art, subject to formal 
proof. 
 
>And if anybody wants to take issue with that, I'm still waiting for 
an 
>explanation for why high strength should be a Disadvantage. Please. 
>Explain to me, in plain English, why it makes sense that a high STR 
>costs fewer points that a low STR. 
 
 
What are you talking about? I am afraid that I cannot explain anything 
of the sort to you until I understand why you think a high STR costs 
fewer points than a low STR. 
 
>> On the subject of HA ... I've been doing some thinking on this. 
Most people 
>> think that keeping HA at 3 pts./die leads to ridiculously low 
active-point 
>> costs (agreed). However, jumping it to 5 pts./die without changing 
STR's 
>> cost results in penalizing players arbitrarily on concept 
> 
>I disagree. What we need is a HA at 5/die to complement HKA; players 
>who don't need the damage-conversion ability of HA could just take 
>STR, only to deal damage. 
 
 
In what way is STR, only to deal damage different than the present HA? 
 
>> I can't help but notice that God, in his infinite wisdom, has 
placed a number 
>> larger than 3, but smaller than 5. 
> 
>Well, yeah, but while costing it at Pi per die would be aesthetically 
>pleasing, it might be annoying to calculate. 
> 
 
I don't consider 3.14159265358979 to be aesthetically pleasing. (Yes, 
I did that from memory. Not something I'm proud of, but a curse I 
bear.) 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it rea 
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 20:41:09 -0800 
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On Sunday, January 04, 1998 3:21 PM, Opal wrote: 
 
 
> f > Try this. Roll damage for killing attacks as if they were normal 
> f > attacks, 1d6 per DC. Now, subtract the target's resistant 
defense from 
> f > the BODY of the killing attack. If the BODY gets through, then 
the 
> f > target subtracts only resistant defenses from the STUN. If the 
BODY is 
> f > stopped, then the target subtracts non-resistant defenses as 
well. 
> f > 
> 
>The only problem with this is that it would make KA clearly more 
>effective than Normal Attacks:  When used against a target with 
>all resistant def, a KA is identical to a normal attack, otherwise, 
>it's better. 
 
Only if the BODY penetrates. Otherwise, yes, it would be the same as a 
normal attack. 
 
>  And, if you make 'Killing' an advantage, then normal 
>attacks actually become better at killing normals (or, rather, 
there's 
>a threshold based on the size of the advantage and PD/ED of the 
victim). 
> 
>For instance, if 'Killing' is a +1/4 advantage, then a 50 Apt EB, 
>and a 50 Apt (8d) 'Killing' EB will both average the same 8 BOD of 
>damage to a normal.  At higher active points the normal attack 
actually 
>becomes more deadly, while at lower point levels, the difference is 
>still small (4d 'K' EB will do 4 BOD, vs 3 for the 5d EB...).  Not 
>a problem with buffed 4-8 PD/ED normals, though. 
 
 
Given that normals survive super-level damage much more frequently in 
Champions than they do in comics, I don't necessarilly find this a 
problem. Normals are frequently casually killed by supervillains in 
comics. The normal dies with a fair degree of reliability. In 
Champions, a completely average normal hit with a 12d6 EB will die 
only slightly more than half the time, without optional rules or GM 
help. 
 
I still recall a DI game where my players were supposed to be up 
against the world's greatest assassin. One of the players picked up 
the bag the assassin had dropped, only to find that it had a booby 
trap and four sticks of dynamite in it. The character had a NCM limit 
of 8 PD. He took no damage from the resulting explosion. 
 
> f > This will help simulate the effect pretty well, I suspect. A 
more 
> f > complex method would be to subtract the largest dice of damage 
from 
> f > the attack as their BODY is used up. Then, the BODY that gets 
through 
> f > does STUN without defenses, while the BODY that doesn't get 
through 
> f > does STUN with all defenses, resistant or not. After all, there 
is no 
> f > reason why the STUN  that corresponds to the BODY that gets 
through 
> f > should be resisted at all, as it is primarily the shock of the 
BODY 
> f > damage that creates the STUN. 
> f > 
> f > Filksinger 
> f > --- 
> 
> 
>That second bit probably is too complex.  What level of Advantage 
>would the KA be?  Or, if it should be 5pts/die, what's the downside 
> 
>that balances it? 
 
 
The downside suggested in Digital Hero was that killing attacks were 
"Beam" attacks, unable to spread. Of course, technically this would 
also make them unable to bounce, making simulating trick shot 
character's a bit problematic. Also, the ability of bullets to bounce 
can grant a considerable advantage at times, even in a heroic campaign 
without trick shot maneuvers. 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Double Energy per DC? 
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>>>>> "SW" == Stirling Westrup <sti@CAM.ORG> writes: 
 
SW> Um. The "the above" that you elided specifically stated that DCs are 
SW> not linear. 
 
I read it as "DCs are linear", at something like 50 or 100 Joules per DC. 
This comparison is seriously flawed. 
 
SW> What I wanted to know was why if +1 DC is double energy, 
 
It isn't; +1 DC is double the damage. 
 
SW> 2 sticks of dynamite are listed as 3 DCs higher than 1 stick???  As I 
SW> see it, the possibilities are: 
 
SW> 1) We're wrong about +1 DC being roughly 2x energy. 
 
As previously mentioned, +1 DC does not equal 2x energy, it equals 2x 
damage. 
 
Damage is a function of energy; but that function squares the energy, so 
the ratio is non-linear.  Working from the basic momentum formula 
(F=0.5mv^2), if mass remains constant and you double velocity (thus double 
kinetic energy) you increase momentum (damage) by a factor of the square 
root of ((2v)^2-(v)^2) -- clearly not a 1:1 ratio. 
 
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From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: Re: Knockback Table 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 01:08:20 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
  
> To: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com>  
>  r > Here's a multi-use table for determining Knockback and  
>  r > throwing distances, which  
>   
> Thanks!  Hopefully I can put this to good use.  
>   
> BTW, why is it that doubling the amount of jules doesn't  
> double the velocity?  
>   
> Doesn't an object going twice as fast have twice as much  
> energy?  
>   
> I ask only out of physics ignorance...  :)  
>   
> --  
> Opal  
>   
 
Thanks for the complement on my posts. 
 
Simple momentum, mass times velocity, doubles if either mass or 
velocity doubles.  But kinetic energy is one-half mass times 
velocity-squared (or (m*v^2)/2), so a doubling of mass doubles 
kinetic energy, while a doubling of velocity quadruples energy.  A 
doubling of energy when mass remains constant means that velocity is 
multiplied by the square-root of 2. 
  
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 01:26:28 EST 
Subject: Str Cost (long) 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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I would be interested in seeing a civilized discussion on what would happen if 
the cost of Str were to be increased. 
 
But first, a little background.   I have to say off the top that I think the 
cost of Str is fine as it is now, if used in the right way, and that it 
balances out with the rest of the system.   I think Str is priced the way it 
is to balance Bricks with the other character types, as has been said before, 
*but* there is a lot of room for abuse in non-Brick characters.  (just like 
there is a lot of room for abuse in *any* character type)  And *that* is where 
the GM has to step in and keep players from buying a high Str on a character 
whose concept doesn't call for it, just to get figured Characteristics 
cheaper.  I've been playing Champions for 13 years, and I have yet to see a 
situation where a Brick had *any measurable* advantage, in the terms of power 
level and overall character effectiveness, over another character type. 
Actually, it's seemed to be the opposite.  True Brick characters are most 
often the least fleshed out characters on the team, since they have to spend 
so many points on so many Characteristics (with little to no Limitation 
potential), that once they are to the point that they are balanced with the 
other characters, they have almost no points left to spend on Skills and such. 
Given 250pts and a competent GM, all the character types will balance out. 
Just look in the HSR book examples.  So IMHO, if you raise the cost of Str, 
you are going to make the Brick weaker.   Anyway, here we go.... 
 
I got to thinking (dangerous, I know) about what would happen if the cost of 
Str were to be raised.  Say you make Str cost 2/1... that means that the 
team's resident Brick would be limited to a 30 Str in a 60 Active Point limit 
campaign.     That's 6d6 for a punch, vs the team's Energy Blaster's 10-12d6 
Blast.  That doesn't seem fair at all.  So then we decide on 1.5/1, which 
results in a 40 Str Brick, throwing 8d6 punches.  Still way unbalanced, not to 
mention very ungenre, since the strongest member of your team would have 
trouble lifting a bus.   
 
That leads to a second alternative...  redifining what Str gets you in the way 
of Figured Characteristics.  But changing anything here would affect *every* 
character type across the board.  You could make Str add Str/5 for Stun 
instead of Str/2.  Fine, everybody gets 3 less Stun per 10 Str.  That would 
make a true Brick like Ogre have a 47 Stun... 8 points higher the teenage girl 
Icicle on the next page.  And for a Brick that gets hit alot, 47 Stun doesn't 
make him balanced.   
 
Another alternative could be to change the Active Point limit to a Dice of 
Damage limit so that the Brick can still throw a comparable amount of dice, 
but this opens an ugly can of worms.  This way you could charge 2/1 for Str, 
and the limit would be 12d6 in a 12 DoD limit campaign, but then you're 
forcing the Brick to spend 100pts to get to that point vs 60 points for the 
rest of the team.  But worse, you've also opened up vicious attack 
possibilities, since the limit is now not based on AP or DC, but just total 
dice.  Insert outrageous 12d6 Advantage/Advantage/Advantage combo here. 
 
I'm not trying to insult anyone who (apparently very strongly) believes that 
Str comes too cheaply.  I would just like to take it to the next level though, 
and have an open discussion to see what would happen to the balance of the 
game if the price of Str was increased.  If anyone has already changed the way 
Str works in their campaign, I'd be interested in the results, too. 
 
'Lynx 
 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: Re: Double DC  
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 03:44:34 -0500 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
>>>>> "SW" == Stirling Westrup <sti@CAM.ORG> writes: 
 
SW>> Um. The "the above" that you elided specifically stated that DCs are 
SW>> not linear. 
 
Stainless Steel Rat responds: 
 
SSR> I read it as "DCs are linear", at something like 50 or 100 Joules per DC. 
SSR> This comparison is seriously flawed. 
 
SW>> What I wanted to know was why if +1 DC is double energy, 
 
SSR> It isn't; +1 DC is double the damage. 
 
SW>> 2 sticks of dynamite are listed as 3 DCs higher than 1 stick???  As I 
SW>> see it, the possibilities are: 
 
SW>> 1) We're wrong about +1 DC being roughly 2x energy. 
 
SSR> As previously mentioned, +1 DC does not equal 2x energy, it equals 2x 
SSR> damage. 
 
SSR> Damage is a function of energy; but that function squares the energy, so 
SSR> the ratio is non-linear.  Working from the basic momentum formula 
SSR> (F=0.5mv^2), if mass remains constant and you double velocity (thus double 
SSR> kinetic energy) you increase momentum (damage) by a factor of the square 
SSR> root of ((2v)^2-(v)^2) -- clearly not a 1:1 ratio. 
 
 
Stainless Steel Rat seems to be confusing his definitions and equation symbols 
in physics. 
 
The momentum equation is mass times velocity, or p = mv.  In the mks system, 
this is measured in kg*(meters/second).  
 
The kinetic energy equation is one-half mass times velocity-squared, or K = 
0.5mv^2.  This is measured in kg*(m^2/sec^2), or joules. 
 
The equation for force is mass times acceleration, or F = ma.  This is 
kg*(m/sec^2), or newtons.  In Earth's gravity well, 1 pound is about 4.5 
newtons of force. 
 
My personal view on treating damage is to consider damage dice to be roughly 
equivalent to the energies involved in an attack, be it a vehicle collision, a 
fall, a flame, a lightning bolt, a laser beam, or whatever.  It's simple to 
handle energy, and simple to convert energy from one unit to another, from 
joules to calories and back again, or to consider the energy transferred by 
electrical power, watts (joules of energy per second). 
 
I ignore momentum because it cannot be so readily translated into units of 
heat, temperature, and electrical power, and because I can't get a good grasp 
on it's applicability in so many problems.  I read that the explosion of 1 gram 
of TNT releases about 1 kilocalorie of energy (1 kcal = 4,187 joules).  What 
does that mean in terms of the momentum of the pressure wave of air that 
expands out from the center of the explosion?  Beats me.  I'm no engineer.  I 
can easily grasp what it means in terms of raw energy, however. 
 
I'm not scientist enough to prove that energy is usually preferable to momentum 
as a measure of potential physical damage to flesh or bone or brick--I've heard 
arguments either way, but can't cite a textbook that clearly shows which is 
more accurate.  (Years ago, there was a debate on this very issue in the pages 
of DRAGON Magazine over how to calculate falling damage in AD&D.  An article 
argued in favor of momentum, a critical response said energy.)  I use energy as 
the basis of damage dice because it's easy, and because it readily lends itself 
to the logarithmic scale of the game, from the kinetic energy of a agent's fist 
blow to the heat at the core of a star. 
 
Damage dice and its corresponding energy represents only potential damage, 
though.  To find out what how damage is actually inflicted, you gotta roll the 
bones.  Where physical attacks are concerned, pressure is perhaps the most 
accurate way to measure damage inflicted, so I interpret actual BODY damage 
suffered or absorbed to be more a measure of pressure than anything else.  
Pressure is a force applied to a unit of area, measured in pounds per 
square-inch (psi), atmospheres, or in the mks system, pascals (newtons of force 
per square-meter). 
 
The strength or hardness of materials is measured by pressure, whether it's 
testing the tensile strength in psi of steel bolts or the hardness of gemstones 
using the Knoop scale.  Strength can be measured in different ways, 
though--tensile, compressive, shearing--so the physics can get complicated.  To 
overcome a material's strength or hardness in order to deform or puncture or 
shatter it, you have to do enough BODY damage to it--pressure greater than it 
can withstand. 
 
Pressure is very messy to calculate where collisions are concerned, since in 
order to know the force involved, you have to know the time span involved.  
Throw a rock at someone hard enough to hurt.  You know the rock's mass and how 
many square inches of surface area it strikes.  But how rapidly does the rock 
decelerate once it hits the person?  A man falls from a ten-story building.  
How long does it take him to decelerate to a downward velocity of 0.0 m/sec 
once he hits the concrete?  Calculating the kinetic energy of a thrown rock or 
a falling character is far simpler. 
 
So I keep coming back to energy.  If there's a scientist or engineer out there 
who can guide my steps better, I sure would like to hear from you. 
 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 98 09:00:21 GMT 
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk 
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness) 
Subject: GAZZA located... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Hi Folks, 
 
Happy New Year to everyone, I'm not re-subscribed yet but I remember before  
the break there were a few people looking to get hold of GAZZA. Well, as a  
subscriber to the Glorantha list I came across a message from GAZZA who  
seems to have taken up RQ in the time he's been gone. His e-mail address is  
as follows 
 
gazza@wantree.com.au 
 
Hope you get back in touch. 
 
 
Stephen 
 
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 02:35:08 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
wish@dumain.PCUG.COM wrote: 
>  
> >The Touch group definitely needs defining. That'd be: Pressure Sense, Heat 
> >Sense, Pain Sense, and Balance Sense for the Touch Group, IMHO. Maybe even 
> >Limb Location Sense - flashing this particular one would put Octopus Man in 
> >deep trouble :-) 
> Actually it would put anyone in trouble.  I saw a TV program a couple 
> of months ago about a couple of people who had lost their awareness 
> of the location of their body parts. 
>  
> Initially they were both confined to bed/wheelchair.  The younger one 
> eventually managed to train himself to keep track of his limbs by sight 
> but the initial effect was still fairly devestating. 
 
   Excellent point;  have you ever tried to walk on a leg that has 'gone 
to sleep' and was completely numb?  It really makes clear how useful out 
involuntary/'automatic' muscles are.... 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 02:41:00 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sunday, January 04, 1998 7:36 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> 
>F> Case 1: If you have a game with frameworks, then STR is probably 
>F> balanced by frameworks. 
> 
>Using frameworks as a benchmark is absurd; 
 
I didn't claim they were a benchmark. 
 
>there is no basis for making 
>such comparisons. 
 
Now that is absurd. The objection to STR is that it gives excess value 
for the cost, no? This claim is justified by showing how many points 
are saved if I use STR. 
 
Frameworks also save points. Since the arguments against STR are that 
it is too cost efficient, saving too many points, then a comparison to 
other point saving measures is valid. The erstwhile purpose of the 
saving methods is not sufficient reason to not compare them. 
 
>Frameworks are, by their definition, unbalancing.  They "reward" a 
>character because the player picked a coherent set of special effects 
for 
>the character.  What makes them reasonable within a campaign is that 
most 
>other characters also have frameworks, not their cost structure. 
 
 
What makes cost saving features of any sort reasonable within a 
campaign is that most other characters also have cost saving features, 
not their cost structure. 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 06:53:31 EST 
Subject: To spam or not to spam... 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
  I just wantred to invite folks here to join our electronic customer PR list. 
 
  "But why have a separate list, Mark? Why not just send the stuff to this 
list?" 
 
  The reason is simple; we have occasional announcements, offers and so forth 
unrelated to Hero System products, including Fuzion (gasp!) and other game 
systems. I don't consider all of those messages appropriate for this list 
(those that *are* appropriate will still be sent here). Therefore, I am 
invited any interested parties ot drop me an e-mail with "Subscribe CUST" in 
the subject line. 
 
  Thank you. We now return you to your regularly scheduled Hero Mailing List. 
;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
  http://members.aol.com/goldrushg 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 06:24:08 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:22 PM 1/4/98 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, qts wrote: 
> 
>> >> By which time I'd have TPorted away, leaving you as the sacrifice :}. 
>> >> Unfortunately Big H only appears when Betelgeuse (or is it The Hyades?) 
>> >> is above the horizon. 
>> > 
>> >Nope, it's Aldebaran. 
>>  
>> Yes, I was mixing him up with Cthugha 
> 
>Uh... no, that's Fomalhaut. 
> 
>I can't find any listing for Betelgeuse in "Call of Cthulhu". 
 
   Yeah, you'll get a completely different effect from saying "Betelgeuse" 
three times (depending on how you pronounce it). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 06:43:21 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:26 PM 1/4/98 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>> Increasing the cost of STR will literally break the system ...  
> 
>STR _as it is_ breaks the system. How many times has this been 
>demonstrated? 
 
   I know!  I know! 
   Zero!   :-] 
   I mean, after all, it gives Bricks a point break in superheroic games 
that keeps them competitive with other types who also get point breaks 
(what with Power Frameworks, Martial Arts adders, Limitations on 
Battlesuits, and such). 
   In a heroic game, where Normal Characteristic Maxma take effect, it only 
gives a point break for a whopping 10 points' worth, which wouldn't be 
enough to unbalance hardly anything.  I once GMed over a character with 20 
STR *and* Boxing in a heroic level campaign (for a maximum attack of 8d6), 
and sure he was heck to beat in a fistfight, but he was nigh useless in a 
firefight.  (That's why guns were called "The Great Equalizer" in the Old 
West!) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 06:48:33 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:51 PM 1/4/98 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>And if anybody wants to take issue with that, I'm still waiting for an 
>explanation for why high strength should be a Disadvantage. Please. 
>Explain to me, in plain English, why it makes sense that a high STR 
>costs fewer points that a low STR. 
 
   In what game system?  This is the *Hero* Mailing List, Trev.  A high STR 
costs *more* points than a low STR in Hero -- and, in fact, in any 
point-based system I've ever seen. 
 
>> On the subject of HA ... I've been doing some thinking on this. Most people 
>> think that keeping HA at 3 pts./die leads to ridiculously low active-point 
>> costs (agreed). However, jumping it to 5 pts./die without changing STR's 
>> cost results in penalizing players arbitrarily on concept 
> 
>I disagree. What we need is a HA at 5/die to complement HKA; players 
>who don't need the damage-conversion ability of HA could just take  
>STR, only to deal damage. 
 
   On that, I think there is a consensus. 
   One thing on which I think I disgree is the oft-stated maxim that HA 
should be the normal-damage equivalent of HKA.  I think that this would be 
taking the wrong approach to fixing the problem, and the reason that HA has 
been such a pain in the butt for so long.  What HA should be viewed (IMO) 
as is the hand-to-hand equivalent of Energy Blast.  Simply start with EB, 
trade Range for STR Adds, allow STR to more than double the attack in 
exchange for not being able to Bounce (believe it or not, this is much 
closer to balanced than one might think), and there you go!  In fact, I 
think that this is largely what Opal did with his version of HA, and it's 
part of why I like it so much. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 06:54:59 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:49 PM 1/4/98 -0800, Opal wrote: 
>Never.  Sure, people complain about the point discount, but in all 
>the years I've played Hero, I have never seen STR-based characters 
>dominate a game.  I have seen problems with Mentalists, VPPs, and 
>(of course) exotic power constructions, but never with bricks.   
>(oh, and Powered Armor characters and Vehicles...) 
 
   TUSV will make vehicles both better in terms of balance, and worse.  I 
don't want to go into detail explaining that, but I think the folks who got 
eval copies will tend to agree....   :-] 
 
>The only time bricks seem overpowered is when they dust off the 
>Haymakers and start doing 15 and 18 dice. :) 
 
   Or do Superleaping Move Throughs on squads of agents.  (I had that 
happen once, but when another PC took that offending PC to the agents' 
funerals, that brick had a Radiation Accident on his Psych Limits, so it 
turned out to be a really great thing in terms of plot....) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 10:48:29 -0500 
From: Bruce Crow <BCROW@cnmc.org> 
Subject: eMail addresses -Reply 
Content-Disposition: inline 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Here is what I have 
 
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 10:09:48 -0600 
From: Robert Kemp <baron@stlnet.com> 
Organization: The Creative Couple 
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Firelynx16 wrote: 
>  
> I would be interested in seeing a civilized discussion on what would happen if 
> the cost of Str were to be increased. 
> Civilized?... You sure you have the right list *smile* (Jus' kiddin') 
 
> But first, a little background.   I have to say off the top that I think the 
> cost of Str is fine as it is now, if used in the right way, and that it 
> balances out with the rest of the system. *snip* 
 
Ack, I don't. 
 
>  
> I got to thinking (dangerous, I know) about what would happen if the cost of 
> Str were to be raised.  Say you make Str cost 2/1... that means that the 
> team's resident Brick would be limited to a 30 Str in a 60 Active Point limit 
> campaign.   
 
Actually 40 because you were forgetting the free 10 he gets. 
This results in a character that can throw an 8d6 punch and lift about 7 tons and then  
he can push his strength (Which bricks often do in comics, in my opinions (thats why you  
see them straining)) and lift up to about 25 tons. WITHOUT pushing, however, the brick  
still has several options including Martial Arts and Hand Attacks to increase his damage  
all the way up to the dreaded 12d6 "Whap o' Doom" and then there's the Haymaker... lets  
not even go there. The point is not how much damage but the total package that Strength  
gives you. It gives you PD, Stun, Recovery, up close damage and even ranged attack if  
you can find a handy manhole cover.  
 
For 10 points of Strength you get: 
2 PD					2 pts. 
2 Rec					4 pts. 
5 Stun					5 pts. 
2d6 DC					8 pts. 
2d6 EB (Only if prop present -1/2, 
	Dam only up to Def/Bdy 
	 of prop -1/2)			5 pts. 
			---------------------- 
Total					24 pts. 
 
This doesn't really even count the ability to throw items or foes far, far away (which  
I've seen a brick to to a foe with a viscious NND (tee-hee)). Strength packs a lot of  
punch per point. Conversely, Energy Blasts only have one job and that is to do damage at  
range, they are very limited and hence cheaper. You can get more out of Strength for  
your investment. 
 
>  
> That leads to a second alternative...  redifining what Str gets you in the way 
> of Figured Characteristics.  But changing anything here would affect *every* 
> character type across the board.  You could make Str add Str/5 for Stun 
> instead of Str/2.  Fine, everybody gets 3 less Stun per 10 Str.  That would 
> make a true Brick like Ogre have a 47 Stun... 8 points higher the teenage girl 
> Icicle on the next page.  And for a Brick that gets hit alot, 47 Stun doesn't 
> make him balanced. 
> I agree that is a bad idea. 
 
 
> I'm not trying to insult anyone who (apparently very strongly) believes that 
> Str comes too cheaply.  I would just like to take it to the next level though, 
> and have an open discussion to see what would happen to the balance of the 
> game if the price of Str was increased.  If anyone has already changed the way 
> Str works in their campaign, I'd be interested in the results, too. 
>  
> 'Lynx 
 
I don't allow EC's in my game and have tried to increase the price of Str but the  
players said it wasn't champs because I also had to reprice Growth and Density Increase  
which are also over priced. I'd like to see the 5th edition have some alternate prices.  
You could have "standard" cost which everyone is more familiar with and "Balanced" cost  
which would be only optional but thoroughly explored, at least within the confines of a  
section in the glossary.  
 
And, no, I don't want to play Fuzion because it sucks. It doen't have a lot of the  
elegant balancing mathematics that I find refreshingly challenging when making a  
character. Its clunky system and horridly illustrated. Nuff Said. 
 
I don't want to change the world, just give a new perspective to it. 
 
Rob K. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 05 Jan 1998 11:39:50 -0500 
Lines: 27 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
 
F> What makes cost saving features of any sort reasonable within a 
F> campaign is that most other characters also have cost saving features, 
F> not their cost structure. 
 
But in the case of a high Strength this is not the case.  Most characters 
that are not bricks tend not to have high Strength scores.  Thus they have 
to pay for things like defenses, things that a brick gets for free. 
 
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Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 11:40:29 -0500 
From: Bruce Crow <BCROW@cnmc.org> 
Subject: Fantasy Magic - Skill Rolls -Reply 
Content-Disposition: inline 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>> "dflacks" <dflacks@ican.net> 01/03/98 11:58am >>> 
 
Sorry about that other post. Groupwise was giving me fits. 
 
>1) I want Secular magic and Religious magic to have a different flavour, 
but if a player can make up his own spells, what is to prevent a Wizard 
type character from having the exact same powers, advantages and 
limitations as a Cleric type character?  How do I make the two different 
enough that one can tell which type of magic is being used?< 
 
Don't start with the mechanics of the system. If you want the flavour to 
be different, decide in what ways you want it different first. In my 
campaign, healing can only be cast by priests while in turn they cannot 
cast spells (prayers) that cause damage (the reverse is true for evil 
priests). Define first what special effects are restricted to priests only 
and what is restricted to mages only. 
 
>2)  I am not sure I want to have the Skill roll limitation on religious 
magic.  After all clerics are supposed to be representatives of their 
deities, and it hardly looks good to potential worshippers if your cleric*s 
powers fail.  But If I remove the skill roll limitations then you have a 
wizard who can cast a spell that sometimes fails, and a cleric who can 
cast the same spell and have it always work.  Why would anyone play 
the wizard?  
The power and influence of clerics would far outstip all others, and I do 
not want to run a religously based  campaign.  I need a way to make 
secular magic and religious magic different while keeping the two in 
balance.< 
 
I still have priest roll a faithfulness roll to determine sucess or failure. 
Based on EGO instead of INT (oh ye of little faith). 
 
>3) I have a problem with an archmage capable of destroying a castle 
with a single spell, still fumbling a simple light spell.  What I am looking at 
is allowing characters to buy off the skill roll limitation with earned 
experience.  All spells would start with a skill roll, but with experience 
could become second nature.  I want to prevent characters from buying 
off the skill roll on the most powerful spell while having their simplest 
spells still fail.  Should all lower points spells have to be bought off 
first?  Perhaps a limit on the maximum active point level that can be 
bought off?  If so what limit?< 
 
I always require a skill roll of some kind, albeit the failure rate for a simple 
spell is far lower than it is for a powerful spell. 
 
>4) I like the flexibility of the hero system, and don*t plan on restricting 
characters to one college or school of magic, so I will not be using a 
college system.  Never the less, if a player want to voluntarily restrict 
himself to one special effect, he should get some compensation for the 
increased vulnerability that entails.  I need some way so that a fire 
specialist, for example, would be better at fire magic that an ordinary 
spell caster?< 
 
I don't care for the college system either. Colleges in my world are more 
like organizations/secret brotherhoods. College loyalty is very important. 
"Souriel of Altendorf. The Guild of Pyromancy finds you guilty of seeking 
out and learning spells of Hydromancy. You are henceforth forbidden to 
enter guild halls, use guild libraries, or deal with other mages of the Guild. 
The Guild will no longer offer protection from the king's anti-wizard laws. 
(a long list of more sanctions)" You get the idea. 
 
>5) Finally, What about skill rolls on linked powers.  To get the effect I 
want, some spells will require more that one power.  If multiple powers 
are linked, all with the skill roll limitation, does the player roll multiple 
relatively easy skill rolls or one much more difficult skill roll?< 
 
Actually, I've never had a player try it, or even ask about it, yet, so I 
haven't given it much thought. But I will now. 
 
I've noticed that many GMs use VPP to simulate fantasy magic (so do I). 
Is this really as common as it seems to be? Is there a published 
supplement that advocates this? Note, I don't have many supplements so 
forgive me for my ignorace in advance. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Double Energy per DC? 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 05 Jan 1998 12:12:25 -0500 
Lines: 73 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "SW" == Stirling Westrup <sti@CAM.ORG> writes: 
 
SW> The formula implied was that energy in joules = 50 * 2^(DC-1), this is 
SW> not a linear function. 
 
Hmmm... I managed to miss that, then.  Sorry.  It is still wrong, though 
(keep reading). 
 
[...] 
 
SW> I'm not saying that you're wrong, but what real-world units do you 
SW> propose to measure damage in? 
 
If you are serious about this... "damage" is a function of force over area 
modified by the time required to transfer energy. 
 
Seriously, though, I do not think it is necessary to be that detailed about 
it.  The Hero unit of damage is the DC, which subsumes and abstracts all 
that into a value that one can play with. 
 
[...] 
 
SW> Actually, thats the basic Kinetic Energy formula, and its measured in 
SW> Joules.  Momentum is just mv and isn't important enough to have its own 
SW> unit. 
 
Hmmm... Newton-meters/s^2.  What I get for posting at midnight. :) 
 
[...] 
 
SW> The energy released by a single stick of Dynamite is some amount X. The 
SW> amount released by 2 sticks is 2 X. 
 
Right... but let me interject again that 2x energy != 2x damage.  2x energy 
increases damage by a factor of ((2v)^2-(v)^2). 
 
SW> Now, you claim above that +1 DC equals double the damage, and since the 
SW> table on Page 203 of the BBB gives a difference of 3 damage classes 
SW> between 1 stick and 2 sticks of dynamite, one gets the paradoxical 
SW> effect that doubling the energy released octuples the damage 
SW> inflicted. 
 
This is not pardoxical.  "Damage" is a function of the square of the 
energy.  Remember, the mass part of the equation -- the air displaced by 
the explosion, the thing that does the damage to something nearby -- 
remains constant.  So, if you double the energy, the velocity of the 
displaced air is ((2v)^2-(v)^2)^0.5 greater, and it does that much more 
damage. 
 
To plug some simple numbers in, start with a velocity of "8" (assume that 
the displaced air has a mass of "1" to keep the math simple).  This is the 
1 stick of dynamite.  This generates a force of 32.  Double the energy, two 
sticks: 16.  This generates a force of 128.  Double again, four sticks: 32, 
generates a force of 512.  Double again, 8 sticks: 64, generates a force of 
2048. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org> 
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> 
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 19:04:06 +0000 
Subject: Re: Double Energy per DC? 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
So Sayeth Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net&> 
 
> >>>>> "SW" == Stirling Westrup <sti@CAM.ORG> writes: 
>  
> SW> I'm not saying that you're wrong, but what real-world units do you 
> SW> propose to measure damage in? 
>  
> If you are serious about this... 
 
Actually, I am serious. The discussion on this list has gotten me to dust off  
a project I first conceived of on the day I bought my copy of the BBB.  
Its a supplement called Meta-Hero, and is an explanation of how the Hero System  
Rules work. (Not, you note, how the system works, but how the rules for the  
system work.) The intent is to boil the entire system down to a bare list of  
meta-rules and meta-mechanics from which the entire rules system was put  
together. This would: 
 
1) show up all of the current inconsistencies in the rules 
2) show what logical gaps exist in the rules 
3) give guidelines for fixing 1) and filling 2) 
4) give give one a set of guidelines for extending the rules with new abilities  
   and powers, while making sure that these additions were in harmony.  
 
As such, I'm finding a number of discussions on this list, like the question of  
STR costs, the Incomplete Character rules, and the nuances of various powers to  
be very interesting and relevant to the project. And, of course, the question  
of how to interpret things like Damage Classes and rolled body is crucial.  
(BTW, I know there isn't much of a market for such a thing, but I think the  
analysis will greatly help my own worldbuilding efforts, since I so often have  
to tweak rules to get the results I want.) 
 
Anyway, back to the discussion... 
 
>                                   "damage" is a function of force over area 
> modified by the time required to transfer energy. 
 
This tells you how hard you hit something, not how much damage you did. I  
vaguely recall that pressure times time had some special term all its own.  
'Impulse' or something. All I remember from physics class was it was awful  
messy to calculate with, so I can see why one might shy away from it. I really  
should go look it up. Good thing I kept all of my physics texts. 
 
BTRC, by the way, uses energy per area as a unit for damage, and call it  
DV. The BTRC supplement Guns! Guns! Guns! gives a conversion from DV to Joules,  
and an empirical conversion to Hero DCs that was found by doing a match against  
the gun charts in the BBB. They find that 1 DC (of killing damage) is somewhere  
between 40 and 80 joules, and doubles with every DC. 
 
> Seriously, though, I do not think it is necessary to be that detailed about 
> it.  The Hero unit of damage is the DC, which subsumes and abstracts all that 
> into a value that one can play with. 
 
Agreed. Actually, I like to think of a DC as potential damage. 
 
> SW> The energy released by a single stick of Dynamite is some amount X. The 
> SW> amount released by 2 sticks is 2 X. 
>  
> Right... but let me interject again that 2x energy != 2x damage.  2x energy 
> increases damage by a factor of ((2v)^2-(v)^2). 
 
You doubled the velocity, not the energy. Remember, if E=.5*M*V^2, then V =  
sqr(2*E/M) and so doubling the energy gives you: 
 
	V-final = sqr(2*(2E)/M) 
                = sqr(2)*sqr(2E/M) 
                = sqr(2)*V 
                ~ 1.4 V 
 
So, doubling the energy of, for example, a projectile, multiplies its velocity  
by 1.4, and this, you are claiming, does 8 times the damage? 
 
Anyway, I don't believe that the KE formula for projectiles is appropriate for  
modeling a chemical explosion anyway. However, here's another take on the same  
problem:  
 
Ultimately, 'damage' is a disruption of physical structure, including warping,  
deformation and the breaking of molecular and intermolecular bonds. All of  
these are measured in terms of energy per unit of volume or mass. As such, it  
isn't possible to do 8 times the damage with 2 times the energy. In fact, in  
something like an explosion, where the person hit by the shockwave doesn't  
intercept all of the energy anyway, each doubling of the amount of  
dynamite should less than double the amount of Damage. 
 
> SW> Now, you claim above that +1 DC equals double the damage, and since the 
> SW> table on Page 203 of the BBB gives a difference of 3 damage classes  
> SW> between 1 stick and 2 sticks of dynamite, one gets the paradoxical  
> SW> effect that doubling the energy released octuples the damage  
> SW> inflicted. 
>  
> This is not paradoxical.  "Damage" is a function of the square of the 
> energy.  Remember, the mass part of the equation -- the air displaced by 
> the explosion, the thing that does the damage to something nearby -- 
> remains constant.  So, if you double the energy, the velocity of the 
> displaced air is ((2v)^2-(v)^2)^0.5 greater, and it does that much more 
> damage. 
 
As I said above, you are using this formula wrong. You are calculating a  
difference in Energy from a doubling of velocity and claiming it to be a  
difference of velocity from a doubling of energy. Not only that, but it is  
hardly correct to state that the mass of air displaced by a large explosion is  
the same as that displaced by a smaller one. 
 
> To plug some simple numbers in, start with a velocity of "8" (assume that the 
> displaced air has a mass of "1" to keep the math simple).  This is the 1 stick 
> of dynamite.  This generates a force of 32.  Double the energy, two sticks: 
> 16.  This generates a force of 128.  Double again, four sticks: 32, generates 
> a force of 512.  Double again, 8 sticks: 64, generates a force of 2048. 
 
Even if this were correct, which I don't believe, then each doubling of sticks  
would square the damage, and thus double the number of DCs. The table in the  
BBB would then go something like: 
 
	1 stick  Dynamite:  5d6 EX 
        2 sticks Dynamite: 10d6 EX 
        4 sticks Dynamite: 20d6 EX 
 
This isn't how the table goes, and definitely isn't how it should go. 
 
So, I reiterate, how does one get an *8-fold* increase in potential damage from  
a doubling in energy released, since this is what the BBB gives for chemical  
explosives. 
--  
 Stirling Westrup  |  Use of the Internet by this poster 
 sti@cam.org       |  is not to be construed as a tacit 
                   |  endorsement of Western Technological 
                   |  Civilization or its appurtenances. 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 98 20:03:03  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 04 Jan 98 15:46:00 -0800, Opal wrote: 
 
>>However, if you adjust STR cost, then you will balance non-super games 
>>while unbalancing super games. Not a big benefit, given that most Hero 
>>players still play Champions. 
> 
> q> I'd like to see some justification of this - the EC given earlier is 
> q> not valid as you wouldn't have such an EC in a non-super game. 
> q> qts 
> 
>Well, all the Hero games that dissallow EC sofar, also require 
>Characteristic Maxima, which has the effect of increasing STR 
>cost... 
 
Which book says this? Anyway, an EC is perfect for a character who has 
a small number of powers more than one of which can be continuously in 
effect - eg a Paladin, or a magic item (qv one of the spellbooks in one 
of the HSAs). 
 
Anyway, in most Fantasy Hero games (which is my main interest), the 
only stat which exceeds 20 with any regularity is INT, because of which 
I've been thinking about the relative cost of stats over 20 - mayhap 
they should be quadrupled instead of doubled? 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"Stainless Steel Rat\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 98 20:04:37  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 05 Jan 1998 11:39:50 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
> 
>F> What makes cost saving features of any sort reasonable within a 
>F> campaign is that most other characters also have cost saving features, 
>F> not their cost structure. 
> 
>But in the case of a high Strength this is not the case.  Most characters 
>that are not bricks tend not to have high Strength scores.  Thus they have 
>to pay for things like defenses, things that a brick gets for free. 
 
Err, not really he doesn't, leastwise not Resistant defenses. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 98 20:22:57  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 5 Jan 1998 01:26:28 EST, Firelynx16 wrote: 
 
>I would be interested in seeing a civilized discussion on what would happen if 
>the cost of Str were to be increased. 
> 
>But first, a little background.   I have to say off the top that I think the 
>cost of Str is fine as it is now, if used in the right way, and that it 
>balances out with the rest of the system.   I think Str is priced the way it 
>is to balance Bricks with the other character types, as has been said before, 
>*but* there is a lot of room for abuse in non-Brick characters. 
 
Slightly off-beat reply, as I favour Fantasy Hero, but Str is priced 
just fine. The one that is too cheap seems to be INT. Reasoning: 
mage-types tend not to worry about Str, but warrior-types need to worry 
about Int, and both warriors and thieves need points left after paying 
for Dex. To those who say, 'Str gives you PD, the ability to wield 
bigger swords and wear heavier armour, HA, and Stun', well the first 
doesn't help you against a sword-thrust or other KA, and the last 
barely makes a difference. The HA effect is not so great as nearly 
everyone is within 2 DC of each other, and the ability to wield that 
big sword mandates losing the shield, and what of that wizard who's 
tossing 3d6+1RKA fireballs? Oh, you need a big sword when piercing the 
dragonlet's DEF 10 skin. 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 98 20:23:48  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 4 Jan 1998 14:26:08 -0400 (AST), Trevor Barrie wrote: 
 
>On 2 Jan 1998, Opal wrote: 
> 
>>  > The only reason to keep the cost of Strength as is, is legacy.  That  
>>  > is why it was not changed in the fourth edition, and that is why the 
>>  > costs of other powers were not adjusted.  If this hypothetical 5th 
>>  > edition is supposed to be "Hero done right", then the cost should be 
>>  > changed to reflect its usefulness.  
>>   
>> Well the 5th Edition is supposed to be "Hero cleaned up a little but  
>> basicly compatible with 4th Ed, because we still have a lot of old  
>> 4th Ed stuff to sell..."  
> 
>Given that you could replace the cost of each characteristic with a 
>random number and it wouldn't effect the compatibility of most 4th Ed 
>products one single iota, I can't imagine what your point is. 
> 
>> Increasing the cost of STR will literally break the system ...  
> 
>STR _as it is_ breaks the system. How many times has this been 
>demonstrated? 
 
No. See my earlier post. 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"Michael Surbrook\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org> 
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 98 20:26:24  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 4 Jan 1998 19:22:58 -0500 (EST), Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
>On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, qts wrote: 
> 
>> >> By which time I'd have TPorted away, leaving you as the sacrifice :}. 
>> >> Unfortunately Big H only appears when Betelgeuse (or is it The Hyades?) 
>> >> is above the horizon. 
>> > 
>> >Nope, it's Aldebaran. 
>>  
>> Yes, I was mixing him up with Cthugha 
> 
>Uh... no, that's Fomalhaut. 
> 
>I can't find any listing for Betelgeuse in "Call of Cthulhu". 
 
I think that clearly demonstrates that I need to reread the books! 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 12:26:53 -0800 (PST) 
From: Steven Wells <slwells@ucdavis.edu> 
X-Sender: szwells@dilbert.ucdavis.edu 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 5 Jan 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> F> What makes cost saving features of any sort reasonable within a 
> F> campaign is that most other characters also have cost saving features, 
> F> not their cost structure. 
>  
> But in the case of a high Strength this is not the case.  Most characters 
> that are not bricks tend not to have high Strength scores.  Thus they have 
> to pay for things like defenses, things that a brick gets for free. 
 
Ummmm....  This is more or less for my own clarification, but aren't the 
following the basic premises? 
 
Bricks buy lots of STRENGTH, combat levels/maneuvers, a smattering of 
other powers and a skill or three.  Some characteristics are "free." 
 
Almost all other characters buy numerous powers most often times using 
FRAMEWORKS (EC's, VPP's and MP's), combat levels/maneuvers, a skill or 
three and perhaps a few points of additional strength.  Some power costs 
are "free." 
 
I think the point being stressed is that both get cost breaks for their 
PRIMARY POWERS and as such, the system is more-or-less balanced. 
 
Yes, a brick *could* have an EC to put other useful things in, but the 
number of points saved will not be as great as a pyrokinetic projectilist 
or a mage or whatever could achieve due to a lower number of points left 
after buying strength and other characteristics (which are normally 
excluded from power frameworks) to allocate to such a construct. Likewise, 
a mentalist or a thief could increase their strength to gain some 
advantages with their other figured characteristics, but the gains would 
again not be as great. YMMV....  
 
-------------------------- 
Steven L. Wells 
slwells@ucdavis.edu 
Member Team OS/2 
-------------------------- 
 
Reply-To: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com> 
From: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com> 
Subject: Weapons in Heromaker 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:51:50 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Has anyone made up stats for various normal weapons in Heromaker in a .cha 
file?   I'd rather not have to do it myself if I can avoid it. 
 
 
 
Lisa Hartjes 
beren@unforgettable.com 
Home:  http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/daniken/79 
"You met these things before.  What did you do?" 
<said with a grin>"I died." 
(Alien Resurrection) 
 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it rea 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 98 16:16:58 -0500 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 1/2/98 9:37 PM, Opal (Opal@october.com) Said: 
 
> 
>As you probably know, a modern bulletproof vest will often stop the  
>bullet from penetrating, but still allow you to get some awful bruising  
>and probably even a broken rib or something.  So, BOD damage is involved -  
>and the energy in a pistol round and a solid punch are comprable...  
>  
This reminded me of something I saw on TV once... 
 
A reporter was talking about a new type of bulletproof vest that the  
police departments around here were getting, how safe they were, and how  
they would save lives, yaddda, yadda, yadda. At on point he states the  
the vest "would render the officer completely safe from a hangun at close  
range, by dispersing the energy of the bullet." Another reporter then  
steps in and fires a .32 into the first reporters belly (he was wearing  
the vest). Reporter one drops to his hands and knees and begins screaming  
obscenities and yelling about how much pain he was in. 
 
So much for "dispersing the energy"! 
 
I laugh about that every time I think about it. 
 
                                         |  David A. Fair 
        Think Different                  |  SDS International 
                                         |  dfair@sdslink.com 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 16:34:24 -0500 (EST) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> Anyway, in most Fantasy Hero games (which is my main interest), the 
> only stat which exceeds 20 with any regularity is INT, because of which 
> I've been thinking about the relative cost of stats over 20 - mayhap 
> they should be quadrupled instead of doubled? 
> qts 
>  
 
How about for each point above 20, the cost doubles?  INT, for 
instance, would cost 1 pts per point up untilt 20, 2pts for 21, 
4pts for 22, etc... 
 
-Eric 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 05 Jan 1998 16:49:12 -0500 
Lines: 25 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "SW" == Steven Wells <slwells@ucdavis.edu> writes: 
 
SW> I think the point being stressed is that both get cost breaks for their 
SW> PRIMARY POWERS and as such, the system is more-or-less balanced. 
 
Aside from the fact that the math says otherwise, two broken mechanics do 
not fix anything. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun lotto 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:06:42 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Saturday, January 03, 1998 9:06 PM, HayVern wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
>There are few possibilities that could be overlooked in this 
scenario. First 
>is that the rocket COULD HAVE simply grazed Joe's shoulder. I could 
see a 
>person living through such a thing without too many regrets. 
 
True. The original poster was questioning my objections to the "BODY 
lotto" in the Hero System. In order to prove their point, they a) 
completely ignored the BODY lotto, by assuming average damage, and b) 
used the Hit Location system at its most extreme in order to make the 
attack even more deadly, and thus fit their scenario better. 
 
I wasn't really trying to create a good scenario, I was criticizing 
theirs. 
 
>That is one thing 
>I kind of like about the system. No matter how good one character is. 
A lowly 
>incompetant normal could get a lucky shot and kill a hero, (not 
necessarily a 
>super-hero). Unlike other systems where a first level character is 
dog meat 
>going up against a thirteenth level, at least there could be a 
chance, even a 
>slight one in Hero System. 
 
Absolutely. That was one of the reasons I dropped D&D the moment I met 
Hero. 
 
Of course, this has nothing to do with a "BODY lotto". Assuming 
firearms are utilized on normals and not supers, they can kill heroes 
quite nicely in the HERO system. 
 
 
>A word to all GM's, I do not let the player's see most of my dice 
roles. I 
>have saved the lives of many a player character that way, and I make 
sure that 
>if my roll does kill a character, I make sure the player does see 
those rolls 
>only if the character's death could somehow be a contribution to the 
>storyline. 
 
That's not a bad idea, but some players may object. 
 
As far as the "BODY lotto" goes, I would probably find it acceptable 
if all damage was rolled like killing attacks. I just can't figure out 
why killing attacks have this "feature" and normal attacks do not. 
A12d6 normal attack has about the same chances as a killing attack of 
grazing someone, yet it has an enormously lesser chance of doing low 
damage. 
 
However, lets avoid any biased examples, and go straight for the 
facts. In Champions, if I fire a 4d6 RKA at a normal man using the 
present rules, the average damage is 14 BODY. This will kill most 
normals after a short period of bleeding heavily, and optional rules 
allow for it to kill the normal outright. 
 
However, there is a problem. The chances of rolling a 9 are very 
significant. A hit in the shoulder, chest, stomach, or thigh with such 
a shot will not kill even with hit locations, and will not kill period 
without. This is assuming a perfectly normal man with no resistant 
defenses. If he wears the vest in the previous example, then even an 
armor piercing 4d6 RKA will not kill him, on a 11 or less. A very 
significant chance of failure. 
 
In real life, people who are hit with .50 cal machine gun rounds (3d6) 
in the chest die as a rule. A system where they won't die in over one 
third of all hits, even without quick medical attention, is just a bit 
to loose, if I want a realistic game. 
 
Please, people, none of this "If you want realism, go to GURPS." If 
Champions is universal, I should be able to play a realistic game. 
Even if I throw in all the optional rules, the chances of surviving 
this one are just a bit high, especially as the hit location chart 
balances overall. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:10:21 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Monday, January 05, 1998 12:50 AM, Captain Spith wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
>   Excellent point;  have you ever tried to walk on a leg that has 
'gone 
>to sleep' and was completely numb?  It really makes clear how useful 
out 
>involuntary/'automatic' muscles are.... 
> 
 
 
Yes, that is something I won't forget. I woke up early to get a menial 
labor job at a temporary service that sent people out the same day, if 
they got calls for jobs. I fell asleep on the bench. When no calls 
came in for extra people, they decided to let me sleep. 
 
When I woke up, I looked at the clock, discover it was nearly ten, 
jumped to my feet, and fell straight to the floor. I then dragged 
myself to the bench. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 18:37:02 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 4 Jan 1998, Opal wrote: 
 
> So yes, you could eliminate ECs, bump the cost of STR, and probably,  
> restrict other Power Frameworks.  But then, you'd have a game very  
> different from Hero - and rather similar to Fuzion.  
 
"Fusion is bad. Fusion does X. Therefore X is bad." is not valid 
reasoning. 
 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:58:55 -0800 
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On Monday, January 05, 1998 7:56 AM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
<snip> 
> 
>F> What makes cost saving features of any sort reasonable within a 
>F> campaign is that most other characters also have cost saving 
features, 
>F> not their cost structure. 
> 
>But in the case of a high Strength this is not the case.  Most 
characters 
>that are not bricks tend not to have high Strength scores.  Thus they 
have 
>to pay for things like defenses, things that a brick gets for free. 
 
 
I didn't say, "What makes STR's cost saving features reasonable within 
a campaign", I said, "What makes cost saving features of any sort 
reasonable within a campaign. Those character's without a high STR 
tend to save points by using other cost saving features not generally 
applicable to bricks. Thus, they both have "cost saving features" that 
tend to balance out, making them fairly reasonable. 
 
All you did was point out that non-bricks don't have the brick's "cost 
saving features". I didn't say they did. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 19:12:11 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 4 Jan 1998, Opal wrote: 
 
>  t> And if anybody wants to take issue with that, I'm still waiting for an 
>  t> explanation for why high strength should be a Disadvantage. Please. 
>  t> Explain to me, in plain English, why it makes sense that a high STR 
>  t> costs fewer points that a low STR. 
>  
> It makes no sense, and it's not true. 
 
It most assuredly is. I can't count the number of times I've had a 
character who by conception should have had a 10-ish STR, but in 
order to free up enough points to fit in some other things which 
fit the concept, I had to take a 13, 15, 18, or even 20 STR. This is 
a ridiculous situation. 
 
(The first person who suggests I buy "STR, does not increase physical 
strength" will be shot through the head. Friendly warning.:)) 
 
(Although, based on what I've heard about Steve Long's work, I wouldn't 
be shocked to see this become an official suggestion in Fifth Edition...) 
 
> There is no situation in which buying up STR will save you points - OK, 
> there is one:  if you buy up *all* the stats that STR adds to, then buying 
> more STR will save you points 
 
In other words, virtually every character in existence (bearing in mind 
that you actually only need to buy up all of those stats except one). Look 
at the "Characters" section of the BBB - ignoring the 2 who bought their 
STR "Doesn't affect Figured", 12 out of the remaining 14 characters would 
have a lower point cost if they took a higher STR while keeping the rest 
of their stats the same. Characters who have to pay extra points for the 
priviledge of a low STR are the rule, not the exception. 
 
> but that's just an example of a badly designed character. 
 
A "well designed" character is one for whom the mechanics do a good job of 
reflecting the concept. It isn't one which is extremely point-efficient; 
in a good system, there's no such thing. 
 
> Anyway.  If you realy percieve it as a problem, the obvious solution is  
> to stop give figured stats for STR (at least it keeps STR at 5 Apts/d6 
> like other attack powers) 
 
Yes - the last time the STR issue came up, I agreed that ditching the 
idea of figured characteristics is the best solution. They just add 
complexity without any corresponding increase in utility, and ditching 
them would handle the STR issue more cleanly (if you literally increased 
STR's cost, you'd probably need to add a clause stating that its' Active 
Cost should be considered equal to its value for some purposes.) 
 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:13:30 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Hero Games at Cons... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Hey everyone, over the course of the last month we have had various  
conversation.  Some commented on the official presence of Hero Games and  
Gold Rush Games at Cons.  Well, just thought I'd let you know, I just got  
back from GeorgeCon over the weekend and Ray Greer "The Third Hero" of Hero  
Games was there and pushing not only Fuzion but 4th/5th Edition material.   
For those of you with negative thoughts about Hero Games only pushing  
Fuzion, I hope to dispel these thoughts.  Ray pushed 4th/5th as much, if not  
more than Fuzion.  He ran a 4th Ed. Game which I played and enjoyed greatly,  
good turn out for it too.  He did run a Fuzion game, which I wanted to join,  
but was already involved in another game.  He was readily listening to  
comments from everyone about Hero Games and Fuzion.  Kudos to Hero Games for  
selecting a great ambassador for Cons.  Ray is a friendly, fun, and  
energetic guy to talk with and a great representive and creator for Hero  
Games.  You know if Hero Games and Gold Rush Games keep up this kind of good  
publicity and all, well, we might be seeing a great turn-around from the  
"negativity" on the list.  If Hero Games is listening say hi to Ray for my  
wife and me, we both had a great time. 
 
Joe and Amy Sansone 
 
 
Sparx 
 
===================================================== 
 He who laughs last thinks slowest! 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:15:39 -0800 
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Frankly, I am not certain why I am posting this. My opponents have 
made it quite clear that they have no intention of even admitting that 
the other side has any points at all. I have been quite willing to 
admit that my opponents have good arguments, but they are not. I am 
quite certain that the people who posted things like, "all reasonable 
arguments agree with me" won't even give it a fair shake. 
 
However, I am going to try, anyway. 
 
It has been suggested that STR is unbalanced in the HERO System. That 
it is too cost efficient and should be changed to create a new cost, 
to reflect its efficiency. 
 
I got into this debate by correcting a deliberately bad example of why 
STR was superior in cost savings to EC. The response I got was that 
comparing STR to EC was a bad way to prove balance. Prove an example 
wrong, and watch your opponent declare the example's basis to be 
meaningless and invalid.:) 
 
In fact, I hadn't really set my position at the time I posted this. I 
refused to retroactively change every character I had in every 
campaign and supplement in order to correct an "imbalance" that 
somehow never showed up in actual play. However, I hadn't yet decided 
if STR was underpriced to begin with. 
 
I finally came to a conclusion. I should have known better than to 
bolster up other people's arguments. There are much better arguments 
for this than "Frameworks vs STR efficiency". 
 
DEX: Buy a 20 DEX for 30 pts. Get +4 levels in DCV, 20 pts. +4 levels 
in OCV, 20 pts., +2 levels in DEX based skills, 6 pts. +2 levels with 
DEX rolls, 4 pts (iffy, I know, but I don't know how else to simulate 
this without buying DEX), Lightning Reflexes (I don't know the cost), 
+1 SPD, 10 pts. 
 
Total Savings: 30 pts+. Over 2 pts for every 1 spent. 
 
CON: Buy a 20 CON for 20 pts. Get +5 STUN, 5 pts., 10 PD, 10 ED Armor, 
only to prevent Stunning (-1), 15 pts. +10 EGO Defense, only to 
prevent Stunning (-1), 5 pts., +1 PD, 1 pt., +2 REC, 4 pts. Additional 
minor benefits. 
 
Total Savings: 10 pts, plus resistance to disease and other sundry 
ills applicable to your campaign. 1.5 pts for every 1 spent. 
 
BODY: Buy a 20 BODY for 20 pts. Get +10 STUN, 10 pts., 10 PD, 10 ED 
Armor, doesn't stop STUN(-1/2), 20 pts. 
 
Total Savings: 10 pts. 1.5 pts for every 1 spent. 
 
INT: +2/ INT-based skills, 4 pts., +2 PER, 6 pts., +2 w/INT rolls, +4 
(See DEX, above). 
 
Total Savings: 4 pts. 1.4 pts for every 1 spent. 
 
EGO: +4 lvls EOCV, 20 pts., +4 lvls EDCV, +20 pts., +2 w/ EGO rolls, 
+4 pts. (see DEX, above), +10 MD, doesn't effect EGO Attack (-1/2), 7 
pts. 
 
Total Savings: 31 pts. 2.55 pts. for every 1 spent. 
 
Presence can't be properly calculated. 
 
Comeliness can't be properly calculated, as it has no real value in 
game mechanics at all. However, it does give us a value for simply 
having a characteristic with no real purpose: 2/1 pt. spent. Anyone 
who wishes can add this to the above characteristics. 
 
_ALL_ characteristics are a "point crock". 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 19:23:38 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: [HS5]Powers/Concepts Hero doesn't handle well 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, Filksinger wrote: 
 
> >> >Completely trivial. Buy enough rED only vs fire to be immune to 
> >> >whatever the maximum amount of fire you're even vaguely likely to 
> >> >encounter is, and call the special effects "true invulnerability 
> >> >to all fire". 
 
[...] 
 
> I read it. However, I wanted the character tournament legal, and this 
> depends upon a GM judgement call. 
 
What doesn't? 
 
> The benefits of special effects are decided by the GM. Some GMs, given 
> such a character, would refuse to allow the SFX to have that effect. 
> Thus, he may be invulnerable in a particular campaign, but if I 
> announced a tournament, a player bringing that character could not be 
> assured that it would, in fact, be invulnerable. 
 
I'm not sure what you mean by a "tournament"... Champions is an RPG, 
not a strategy game. If you're talking about one of those pure combat 
things, I don't think character concept is a major concern, so the 
possibility that your character may turn to be only effectively 
invulnerable when you wanted to be truly invulnerable doesn't seem like 
a makor concern. 
 
> >Err... try a low DEF and BODY. If there are supposed to be actual 
> >benefits to being made out of styrofoam or the like, tell me what they 
> >are and I'll tell you which mechanics I'd use to build them. 
>  
> Walking on rickety floors, always floats, falls slowly in atmosphere, 
> resistant to being thrown or knocked back great distances in 
> atmosphere (while being easier to knock back in the first place), etc. 
> Sure, you could simulate those, and allow the more minor effects as 
> SFX, but a number of people wanted a better method. 
 
"Better" in what sense? There are plenty of SFXes which require multiple 
Powers to build; I don't see why Density Reduction is too good for this 
method. 
 
 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 19:30:14 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, Filksinger wrote: 
 
> In what way is STR, only to deal damage different than the present HA? 
 
Higher active points. (Possibly higher actual cost as well, depending 
on what's done with STR.) The low active cost is the main problem 
with HA as it stands. 
 
> >Well, yeah, but while costing it at Pi per die would be aesthetically 
> >pleasing, it might be annoying to calculate. 
>  
> I don't consider 3.14159265358979 to be aesthetically pleasing. 
 
But 3.14159265358979 is just a crude decimal approximation of the beauty 
of Pi. 
 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org> 
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> 
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 23:34:54 +0000 
Subject: Re: Double Energy per DC? 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
So Sayeth Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net&> 
 
> Then I strongly suggest you acquire a copy of 3G^3 (Guns! Guns! Guns!) 
> (oops! I see you already have :). 
 
Yup. A highly recommended book. 
 
> >> "damage" is a function of force over area modified by the time required 
> >> to transfer energy. 
>  
> SW> This tells you how hard you hit something, not how much damage you did. 
>  
> When you factor in time of energy transfer it becomes "damage".  I can lean 
> against a wall all day and impart more energy into it that way than a bullet 
> from a .45.  The .45 still does more damage because of the time factor. 
 
No, thats how hard you are hitting the wall. The bullet hits hard, and you  
leaning against the wall hits soft. You continuing to lean against the wall  
all day, BTW, imparts no extra energy at all, just applies a constant force. 
 
> SW> So, I reiterate, how does one get an *8-fold* increase in potential 
> SW> damage from a doubling in energy released, since this is what the BBB  
> SW> gives for chemical explosives. 
>  
> I wish I knew the math well enough that I could give you a solid answer. 
> Been a long time since I mucked around with this stuff for real.  All I can 
> say at this point is that the ratio of energy to damage is non-linear, and 
> what appears to be an 8-fold increase in potential damage is actually a factor 
> of a squared value.  It appears to be an 8-fold increase because you have not 
> extended the curve far enough to see its true nature. 
>  
 
I have no trouble with the damage being a non-linear function of energy. I just  
have a trouble with the energy required to do the indicated damage being larger  
than the total available energy. I'm willing to concede that I can be looking  
at this from the wrong angle, but I still haven't been able to come up with  
a better explanation than the table in question just being wrong. 
 
--  
 Stirling Westrup  |  Use of the Internet by this poster 
 sti@cam.org       |  is not to be construed as a tacit 
                   |  endorsement of Western Technological 
                   |  Civilization or its appurtenances. 
 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 19:39:48 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Firelynx16 wrote: 
 
> And *that* is where the GM has to step in and keep players from buying a 
> high Str on a character whose concept doesn't call for it, just to get 
> figured Characteristics cheaper. 
 
Which gives those characters whose concept does allow a high (not 
necessarily brick-level) STR a bit of an unfair edge over those whose 
doesn't, no? 
 
> I got to thinking (dangerous, I know) about what would happen if the cost of 
> Str were to be raised.  Say you make Str cost 2/1... that means that the 
> team's resident Brick would be limited to a 30 Str in a 60 Active Point limit 
> campaign. 
 
Sorry, I had thought it went without saying that no matter what's done 
to STR's cost, it would still be considered to have an active cost equal 
to its point value when considered as an attack power. (Heck, active 
point limits aren't even part of the rules per se.) 
 
> That's 6d6 for a punch, vs the team's Energy Blaster's 10-12d6 Blast. 
> That doesn't seem fair at all. 
 
Therefore, I imagine most GMs would allow STRs up to 60 in a 60 AP 
campaign, no matter what they charge for STR. 
 
> That leads to a second alternative...  redifining what Str gets you in the way 
> of Figured Characteristics.  But changing anything here would affect *every* 
> character type across the board.  You could make Str add Str/5 for Stun 
> instead of Str/2.  Fine, everybody gets 3 less Stun per 10 Str.  That would 
> make a true Brick like Ogre have a 47 Stun... 8 points higher the teenage girl 
> Icicle on the next page.  And for a Brick that gets hit alot, 47 Stun doesn't 
> make him balanced.   
 
So he should buy up his STUN then, shouldn't he? 
 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:43:07 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: STR Cost (Re: Announcement: Hero S) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>There's no consensus on STR.  It is *NOT* overpriced.  It's cost is  
>>balanced with Power Frameworks.   I'm glad it won't be changed, it  
>>would, litterally, break the system.  
> 
>Um ... you get literally more than you pay for.  It is thus, by definition, 
>overpriced.  Arguments that "it's balanced so that bricks can compete with 
>energy projectors" are sophistry, because this isn't AD&D -- under the 
>current system, I can have an energy-projecting brick, AND THERE'S NO REASON 
>NOT TO! STR pays for itself -- why not jack it up as high as possible? 
 
I too have to agree that STR is not overpriced.  I would have to say H5  
shouldn't make me go back and rebuild my character to adjust for an  
increased STR or whatever other cost point SOME feel are too cheap.  Sure  
you could alwasy do the grandfather clause H4 works in H5 but you couldn't  
recreate it, so this will split players into two camps again and H5 would  
suffer for it.  No, costs shouldn't be change.  The reason you shouldn't buy  
STR up as high as possible is because this game isn't AD&D.  In no way do I  
mean to offend AD&D, I enjoy it, my point being is that Champions is not a  
Hack and Slash game, nor are all AD&D campaigns, but bear with me here.   
Since it is not a Hack and Slash campaign, the fact that you CAN buy it up  
as high as possible doesn't mean you HAVE to buy it up as high possible.   
Champions is a game for the more mature player in some forms.  Sure I could  
have a brick with a 100 STR and throw on some HTH to boot and probably fit  
it in under the 300 point mark of my campaign, but why?  So I can be mean  
and big?  But what if I want to really role play and stick to that forsaken  
idea of character concept?  Maybe a brick is exactly what I want, maybe an  
energy projector, maybe a mixture of both, you can actually sell back some  
of the bonuses STR gives you if you want you know.  It isn't to cheap, just  
abused, there is a difference.  Take it easy and talk at you later. 
 
 
Sparx 
 
===================================================== 
 He who laughs last thinks slowest! 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 16:52:30 -0800 
From: mcallahan <mcallahan@home.com> 
Reply-To: mcallahan@home.com 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it rea 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>A reporter was talking about a new type of bulletproof vest that the  
>police departments around here were getting, how safe they were, and how  
>they would save lives, yaddda, yadda, yadda. At on point he states the  
>the vest "would render the officer completely safe from a hangun at >close  
>range, by dispersing the energy of the bullet." Another reporter then  
>steps in and fires a .32 into the first reporters belly (he was wearing  
>the vest). Reporter one drops to his hands and knees and begins screaming  
>obscenities and yelling about how much pain he was in. 
 
>So much for "dispersing the energy"! 
 
So much for "dispersing the energy"!?!? 
 
This guy gets shot in the stomach at close range and instead of bleeding 
all over the place and having to worry about perotinits (sp?) and dying 
and all that jazz, he just falls down and curses. I'd call that 
dispersing the energy pretty damn well. The reporters just taken a 
bullet to the gut, and is fundamentally unhurt, if it were a combat 
situation he would be quite capable of either running for cover or 
shooting back, compaired to fallind down and bleeding I'd call this 
quite "safe". 
 
Let's look at this in game terms for a sec.  
The reporter took a 1d6 killing attack to the stomach (*4 stun mult) 
while supprised out of combat (*2 stun) for between 8 and 48 stun 
lets assume a roll of 3, a def 6 jacket, and a 2pd reporter. 
The reporter takes 16 stun, enough to stun him (and to make him fall to 
hands and knees) but not enought to knock him out (thus leaving him free 
to curse mightly about how much that hurt). He also took 0 body. With 
out the vest he would have taken 24 stun and 3 body,and be stunned, 
knocked out and bleeding. Once again a pretty good job of "dispersing 
the energy" 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Double Energy per DC? 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 05 Jan 1998 21:08:44 -0500 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
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>>>>> "SW" == Stirling Westrup <sti@CAM.ORG> writes: 
 
>> If you are serious about this... 
 
SW> Actually, I am serious. The discussion on this list has gotten me to 
SW> dust off a project I first conceived of on the day I bought my copy of 
SW> the BBB. 
 
Then I strongly suggest you acquire a copy of 3G^3 (Guns! Guns! Guns!) 
(oops! I see you already have :). 
 
[...] 
 
>> "damage" is a function of force over area modified by the time required 
>> to transfer energy. 
 
SW> This tells you how hard you hit something, not how much damage you did. 
 
When you factor in time of energy transfer it becomes "damage".  I can lean 
against a wall all day and impart more energy into it that way than a 
bullet from a .45.  The .45 still does more damage because of the time 
factor. 
 
[...] 
 
SW> So, I reiterate, how does one get an *8-fold* increase in potential 
SW> damage from a doubling in energy released, since this is what the BBB 
SW> gives for chemical explosives. 
 
I wish I knew the math well enough that I could give you a solid answer. 
Been a long time since I mucked around with this stuff for real.  All I can 
say at this point is that the ratio of energy to damage is non-linear, and 
what appears to be an 8-fold increase in potential damage is actually a 
factor of a squared value.  It appears to be an 8-fold increase because you 
have not extended the curve far enough to see its true nature. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: STR Cost (Re: Announcement: Hero S) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 05 Jan 1998 21:11:03 -0500 
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Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
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>>>>> "S" == Sparx <psansone@i1.net> writes: 
 
S> I too have to agree that STR is not overpriced.  I would have to say H5  
S> shouldn't make me go back and rebuild my character to adjust for an  
S> increased STR or whatever other cost point SOME feel are too cheap. 
 
The one does not follow from the other.  Just because you paid X points now 
does not mean that X is the most reasonable cost. 
 
Besides, you had to do it for your 3rd edition characters when you 
converted to the 4th edition.  What is the big deal?  If you do not want to 
do the conversion, do not convert your game to the new edition.  It really 
is that simple. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 05 Jan 1998 21:15:13 -0500 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
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>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
 
F> Frankly, I am not certain why I am posting this. My opponents have 
F> made it quite clear that they have no intention of even admitting that 
F> the other side has any points at all. 
 
I do agree that you have a point: the status quo is often difficult to 
change, and changing the cost structure of Strength is a significant change 
for the system. 
 
My point, and that of several others, is that there are serious problems 
with some of the cost structures in Hero as it exists today.  As previously 
stated, using one such broken structure to validate another is absurd. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 18:28:45 -0800 
From: mcallahan <mcallahan@home.com> 
Reply-To: mcallahan@home.com 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun lotto 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>In real life, people who are hit with .50 cal machine gun rounds (3d6) 
>in the chest die as a rule. A system where they won't die in over one 
>third of all hits, even without quick medical attention, is just a bit 
>to loose, if I want a realistic game. 
> 
>Please, people, none of this "If you want realism, go to GURPS." If 
>Champions is universal, I should be able to play a realistic game. 
>Even if I throw in all the optional rules, the chances of surviving 
>this one are just a bit high, especially as the hit location chart 
>balances overall. 
 
I love seeing the words "GURPS" "realism" and ".50 cal machine gun" 
all together, here's why. 
Over in gurps armor has 2 components, Passive defence which modifies 
peoples to hit rolls (like in D&D) and Damage resistance, which stops 
incoming dammage (like in champions). A leather Jacket has a Pd of 1 and 
a DR of 1 (source GURPS Basic set 3rd edition) thus if you are shooting 
a .50 cal gun at a guy in a leather jacket and you would normally have a 
11- to hit it's reduecd to 10- if you roll an 11 then the jacket 
completly stoped to .50 cal round. Yet more, lets say a guy has a health 
of 17 (ludicrisly expensive,  but less that 20 and thus still "human") 
he gets shot by a H&H express .600 rifle (the biggest gun I have stats 
for) it does 10d6 thus on average the guy is at -18 ht, what happens 
then,  he is unconscious, and he has to make one 17- roll to stay alive. 
under the optional bleeding rules (all bleeding is optional in gurps) 
every minute he must roll 10- or lose a body to bleeding ( as he bleeds 
this roll gets worse). death comes at -85 body ( alowing no critical 
sucess or falures on the bleeding roll, death comes in about an hour and 
a half) one sucessful first aid roll (there are no penalties no matter 
how badly a person is injured) stops the bleeding (first aid defaults to 
5- for int 10 (base int) and takes 1 minute to use (chance of rolling 5- 
in 90 tries 98.6%)  
GURPS isn't any more realistic than Hero is, it's just broken in 
different areas. 
 
Same example in champions: 17 body guy takes 3d6K with no Resistant Def. 
Allow a roll of 11 on the killing attack. With the optional bleeding 
rules every post seg 12 he takes 3d6 stun nnd and has a .42% chance of 
loosing a body, unless the bleeding stops he's dead in 8 minutes. 
Paramedic defaults to 8- with a minus 5 for the 11 body an average 
person has a 3- to stop the bleeding (with the phase, turn, minute, 5 
minute nature of skills and the advance of bleeding he has 3 chances to 
stop the bleeding 3- at 1 phase, 4- at 1 turn, and 4-(ish) at one minute 
for a chance for about a 4% chance of saving the guy. 
 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:57:32 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: STR Cost (Re: Announcement: Hero S) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>S> I too have to agree that STR is not overpriced.  I would have to say H5  
>S> shouldn't make me go back and rebuild my character to adjust for an  
>S> increased STR or whatever other cost point SOME feel are too cheap. 
> 
>The one does not follow from the other.  Just because you paid X points now 
>does not mean that X is the most reasonable cost. 
> 
>Besides, you had to do it for your 3rd edition characters when you 
>converted to the 4th edition.  What is the big deal?  If you do not want to 
>do the conversion, do not convert your game to the new edition.  It really 
>is that simple. 
 
Actually, since I came in at 4th Edition, no I did not.  Second, with that  
kind of attitude, why don't I just switch game systems altogether?  X may  
not be the most reasonable cost, but X is a fair cost for balancing out the  
game, or at least it has been in every campaign I've ever played in ( a good  
many over the years).  Call it character conception, GM limits enforced, or  
fair players, but I've never had a problem with Aid, Strength, Linked,  
Transform, or Hand Attack that seem to spark constant debate on this list.   
I'm not going to get into a fight on any of the subjects and that is why you  
won't see much from me about it.  I plan on filling out the survey as I see  
fit when it hits the web, not discuss it here in open forum.  This is  
because I don't want to fight about it.  Many don't agree with me and that  
is fine, I'm sure I won't be the swinging vote, so don't go into panic about  
me.  Maybe there are some that feel as I do, who knows.  I just feel if you  
make a quantum leap in point cost from 4th to 5th you won't fix anything  
major and you'll still have die hard 4th players who won't buy the 5th  
edition thus causing three camps, 4th, Fuzion, and 5th with products now  
spread out among three types of the "same" game.  Like I said, don't worry  
about me, but it is odd that those who scream about Fuzion not being good  
also scream about major changes in 5th being good, makes me wonder if  
calling Fuzion, 5th Edition wouldn't have been a bad idea.  *Shrug*.  I'm  
not going to fight about it.  I very seldom even look at the typical debates  
that pop up every other month.  Of course, I think the main problem here is  
it seems everyone on the list doesn't agree with each other 100% and each  
would like to see something different or some changes made but not  
necessarily the same changes.  My vote is to just leave it 4th Ed. and start  
improving on that.  I'd like to see a 4th Ed. Reprint or Revised, but I'm  
not hoping for conversions of any sort on my characters or every character  
my players have.  That would take months for me to convert 300+ characters  
and I'm not sure how long for the rest of you.  And of course, I could just  
ignore it, but some on this list find that "Just don't worry about it"  
theory to be quite disturbing.  After all, why buy a book if I'm not going  
to use it?  *Shrug*  Have to wait until I see it before I make the decision  
I suppose, but my decision will be based on the final product, not the  
arguements on the list before the product.   
 
 
Sparx 
 
===================================================== 
 He who laughs last thinks slowest! 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:52:37 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> On 04 Jan 98 15:46:00 -0800, Opal wrote: 
 
>>> However, if you adjust STR cost, then you will balance non-super games 
>>> while unbalancing super games. Not a big benefit, given that most Hero 
>>> players still play Champions. 
>> 
>> q> I'd like to see some justification of this - the EC given earlier is 
>> q> not valid as you wouldn't have such an EC in a non-super game. 
>> q> qts 
>> 
>> Well, all the Hero games that dissallow EC sofar, also require 
>> Characteristic Maxima, which has the effect of increasing STR 
>> cost... 
 
On January 5, 1998, qts replied: 
 
> Which book says this? Anyway, an EC is perfect for a character who has 
> a small number of powers more than one of which can be continuously in 
> effect - eg a Paladin, or a magic item (qv one of the spellbooks in one 
> of the HSAs). 
> 
> Anyway, in most Fantasy Hero games (which is my main interest), the 
> only stat which exceeds 20 with any regularity is INT, because of which 
> I've been thinking about the relative cost of stats over 20 - mayhap 
> they should be quadrupled instead of doubled? 
> qts 
> 
>Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
 
I've experimented with an alternative to the Normal Characteristics Maxima 
disadvantage for heroic campaigns, to make close-to-the-max stats more rare and 
above-the-max stats quite costly.  The cost for the primary characteristics up 
to 15 (or 16, in the case of COM) is left the same.  From 15-20 (or 16-20, in 
the case of COM), the cost is doubled.  Above 20, the cost is tripled.  Above 
25, if the GM permits such exalted characteristics, the cost is quadrupled.  So 
a knight's impressive 20 STR costs 5+10=15 points, a barbarian's mighty 25 STR 
5+10+15=30 points.  A wizard who wants an awe-inspiring 28 INT would have to 
pay 5+10+15+12=42 points. 
 
This mandatory disadvantage used for heroic-level characters only would be 
worth 10-20 points, depending on how much the GM wants to discourage a 
character from having too many stats close to their maxima.  The cost of this 
disadvantage would not be counted against the point maximum for 
disadvantages--I would do the same for profession package bonuses to encourage 
their use.  So in a 75+75 campaign and a value of 10 points for this 
disadvantage, a character might be built on 163 points if he takes one 
profession package deal.  A further possibility is to limit beginning 
characters to having no primary stat higher than 18.  Buying above this must be 
done with experience points--it gives a character something to look forward to. 
 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: Re: Haymaker Revised 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:56:42 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 r >>  
 r >> An across the board STR boost for a Haymaker, say +10 STR for any  
 r >> regardless of his STR stat, puts a real crimp in the damage potential  
 r >> bricks.  My inclination is to modestly graduate the Haymaker boost,  
 r >> that heroes with superhuman STR are so well practiced and so intensely  
 r >> trained in the use of their inhuman might they can come significantly  
 r >> to tapping their full muscle potential energy with a blow, unlike mere  
 r >> mortals.  Call it a +10 STR boost for characters up to 20 STR, +15 STR  
 r >> 40 STR, and +20 STR above 40 STR.  No Haymakers possible for those  
 r >> STR.  And NPC beasts and animals regardless of STR don't get more than  
 r >> a +10 STR Haymaker boost, unless they get to work out every day in a   
 r >> danger room.  
 r >> Len Carpenter  
 r >> redlion@early.com  
 r >> ---  
  
On January 4, 1998, Opal replied: 
  
> It has been sugested that Haymakers add dice, like martial manuevers  
> do.  This makes a great deal of sense when you think back to earlier  
> editions of the game.  Both martial manuevers, and standard manuevers  
> multiplied STR damage.  Martial Punch was x1.5 and Martial Kick x2,  
> while Haymaker (and a long-gone manuever called Kick) did x1.5.  
  
> Since Martial Arts have been modified, it makes since to do the same  
> with Haymaker.  Martial Punches now do +2d, while Martial Kicks do +4.  
> Logically, a Haymaker could do +2 dice.  I think it would be more  
> fun to bring back kick and and have:  
  
> Kick -2 OCV -2 DCV +2d and  
> Haymaker -0 OCV -5 DCV, +4d, +1 segment  
  
> or something like that....  It's been discussed a few times  
> as '0pt' or 'everyman' martial arts manuevers.  
  
I also miss the old distinction between a Kick maneuver and a Haymaker.  I'd 
like to see the Kick brought back as an increased damage maneuver that isn't 
the same as the all-out-attack, defense-be-damned Haymaker. 
 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
X-Sender: mactyre@mail.aci.net 
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 20:06:15 -0800 
From: Matthew Mactyre <mactyre@aci.net> 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun lotto 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
At 02:06 PM 1/5/98 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>>There are few possibilities that could be overlooked in this 
>scenario. First 
>>is that the rocket COULD HAVE simply grazed Joe's shoulder. I could 
>see a 
>>person living through such a thing without too many regrets. 
> 
>True. The original poster was questioning my objections to the "BODY 
>lotto" in the Hero System. In order to prove their point, they a) 
>completely ignored the BODY lotto, by assuming average damage, and b) 
>used the Hit Location system at its most extreme in order to make the 
>attack even more deadly, and thus fit their scenario better. 
> 
>I wasn't really trying to create a good scenario, I was criticizing 
>theirs. 
 
Actually, I wasn't questioning your objections to anything.  I was 
just relaying a story that I had found amusing.  The last paragraph 
explains that I find the Hero System... well... heroic in a cinematic 
way.   
 
Lethality and realism is a two edged sword.  I like for the characters 
I play to be able to take a hit and keep going.  The LAW rocket 
example was a bit extreme, but then it actually happened in a game.  
I'm not interested in modifying the 4th edition rules; if I want a 
more lethal game, I'll use the hit location rules straight out of the 
book. 
 
BTW:  Below is the complete text of my first post. 
 
Matthew 
 
______________________ 
This is a little off topic, but reminds me of a Chessman game where we 
were fighting Raven.  Raven had captured an alien starship and was 
using it to blackmail the governments of the Earth.  They had used the 
main ship's guns and had already destroyed Star City in Russia and 
were targeting several other juicy targets on Earth. 
 
Several Knights had penetrated the ships defense and had made their 
way to the bridge.  Catching the Supreme Raven (we had dubbed "Big 
Bird") and his minions by surprise, we started trashing the bridge.  
Big Bird was trying to make it to the control panel to engage the fire 
control, when one of the Knights (played by Marcus Hodges) shot him in 
the head with a LAW rocket he has picked up along the way.  THIS 
DIDN'T KILL OR EVEN STUN HIM!  We ended up by finally subduing him and 
caused the ship to self-destruct.  We were expecting a heroic death, 
but the GM allowed us to escape via lifeboats located on the bridge.   
 
I remember Marcus being angry because we lost brownie points due to 
using lethal force.  We all thought that saving the Earth should have 
been worth something.  <grin> 
 
I've long since given up arguing about the lethality of Champions.  I 
just attribute its lack of lethality to the genre, and am not willing 
to modify the rules.  The hit location rules can make it somewhat more 
realistic, but let's face it folks -- in comic books both villains and 
heroes take tremendous amounts of punishment and still show up in the 
next issue. 
_____________________  
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Matthew Mactyre 
mcm@mactyre.net 
http://www.mactyre.net 
Join us on IRC Dalnet #gurpschat to discuss GURPS 
Join us on IRC Dalnet #herochat to discuss Hero games 
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 05 Jan 98 20:48:02 -0800 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 > From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>  
 >  
 > >>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:  
 >  
 > F> Case 1: If you have a game with frameworks, then STR is probably  
 > F> balanced by frameworks.  
 >  
 > Using frameworks as a benchmark is absurd; there is no basis for  
 > making  
 > such comparisons.  
 >  
  
Hmm... STR 'saves you points'  
Frameworks 'save you points'  
  
looks like a basis of comparison right there.  How many points  
can you save with STR vs say, EC?  They come out comprable.  
  
 > Frameworks are, by their definition, unbalancing.  They "reward" a  
  
Oh, yeah, just like STR...  but you can't possibly compare the two,  
that would be absurd.  
  
 > character because the player picked a coherent set of special effects  
 > the character.  What makes them reasonable within a campaign is that  
 > other characters also have frameworks, not their cost structure.  
 >  
  
And other characters have STR.... or Martial Arts... or limitations  
on all thier powers... That is just so wrong, isn't it?  
  
I guess we should change Hero around to eliminate all these darn  
point crocks...  We'll have to fix it so that you can't abuse  
figured characteristics... and eliminate ECs... and get rid of  
Limitaions...  But C:tNM is already out, so there's no need for  
that is there?  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 21:50:48 -0700 
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> >>>>> "SW" == Steven Wells <slwells@ucdavis.edu> writes: 
>  
> SW> I think the point being stressed is that both get cost breaks for their 
> SW> PRIMARY POWERS and as such, the system is more-or-less balanced. 
>  
> Aside from the fact that the math says otherwise, two broken mechanics do 
> not fix anything. 
>  
So anything that allows a character to save points is broken? I 
understand about trying to limit munchkinism but this seems a bit 
obssessive. 
--  
-Mhoram 
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your 
 two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright 
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 05 Jan 98 21:01:04 -0800 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 f > Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>  
 f > >And if anybody wants to take issue with that, I'm still waiting for  
 f > >explanation for why high strength should be a Disadvantage. Please.  
 f > >Explain to me, in plain English, why it makes sense that a high STR  
 f > >costs fewer points that a low STR.  
 f >  
 f > What are you talking about? I am afraid that I cannot explain anything  
 f > of the sort to you until I understand why you think a high STR costs  
 f > fewer points than a low STR.  
 f >  
  
Well, if you buy up all the apropriate figured characteristics really  
high, it can save you points to buy up your STR.  
  
Say you have:  
  
STR 10  
PD  20  
REC 10  
STN 40  
  
(and all your other stats are 10 - this is just an example..)  
  
You spent 50 points.   Say you buy your STR up to 40, this costs  
you 30 points for the STR, but, now your REC and STN are up to  
10 & 35 for no points, you spend a total of 47 points instead of  
50, you got 3 points for buying your STR up by 30 pts.  
  
 f > >I disagree. What we need is a HA at 5/die to complement HKA; players  
 f > >who don't need the damage-conversion ability of HA could just take  
 f > >STR, only to deal damage.  
 f >  
 f >  
 f > In what way is STR, only to deal damage different than the present HA? 
 
 f >  
  
It costs a little more END because of the Apt difference.  
  
  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:13:36 EST 
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long) 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
<< > And *that* is where the GM has to step in and keep players from buying a 
  > high Str on a character whose concept doesn't call for it, just to get 
  > figured Characteristics cheaper. 
   
  Which gives those characters whose concept does allow a high (not 
  necessarily brick-level) STR a bit of an unfair edge over those whose 
  doesn't, no? 
  
 The same could be said for those whose concept allowed for a high Dex giving 
them an unfair advantage in terms of a cheaper Spd, or a higher Con in terms 
of its Figured Characteristics.   
   
  > I got to thinking (dangerous, I know) about what would happen if the cost 
of 
  > Str were to be raised.  Say you make Str cost 2/1... that means that the 
  > team's resident Brick would be limited to a 30 Str in a 60 Active Point 
limit 
  > campaign. 
   
  Sorry, I had thought it went without saying that no matter what's done 
  to STR's cost, it would still be considered to have an active cost equal 
  to its point value when considered as an attack power. (Heck, active 
  point limits aren't even part of the rules per se.) 
  
 That's not fair to everyone else who will be limited by Active Cost.  So 
Bricks get to base theirs on dice, but someone building an attack with few 
dice, but lots of Advantages has to base theirs on Active Cost?  Not fair at 
all.  If the Brick gets to base his on dice alone, then you'd also have to 
allow an Energy Blaster to have a 12d6 EB, One Hex Area Effect, Armor 
Piercing.  The whole point of Active Cost limits it to try and balance 
everyone's 'power level'... and a 12d6 punch from a Brick isn't equal in power 
to a 12d6 One Hex A/E, Armor Piercing.  I don't see how one could say it would 
have an active cost equal to its point value.  And yes, Active Point limits 
aren't core rules, but they seem to find their way into most games, in some 
form. 
  
 The best and truest test on whether Str is too cheap is to conduct battles 
with the 250pt characters in the HSR and see if the Bricks win in a 
disproportionate manner.  In the games I've played in, there is no such 
margin.  But I may have just had good GM's.  In the games I run, Energy 
Blasters actually have a slight edge, but that may just be because one of the 
EBers has the luckiest die rolls sometimes. :) 
  
   
  > That leads to a second alternative...  redifining what Str gets you in the 
way 
  > of Figured Characteristics.  But changing anything here would affect 
*every* 
  > character type across the board.  You could make Str add Str/5 for Stun 
  > instead of Str/2.  Fine, everybody gets 3 less Stun per 10 Str.  That 
would 
  > make a true Brick like Ogre have a 47 Stun... 8 points higher the teenage 
girl 
  > Icicle on the next page.  And for a Brick that gets hit alot, 47 Stun 
doesn't 
  > make him balanced.   
   
  So he should buy up his STUN then, shouldn't he? 
   
 That was my point... if he buys up his Stun, then he's going to have to take 
away points from his already skin and bones Skills/Powers that most true 
Bricks don't have much in anyway.  Remember, he's got to stay at 250 pts to 
enter the game.  Any increase in the cost of Str that you make, you've got to 
pay for from some other place on his character sheet.  And for Bricks, there's 
not a lot to choose from. 
  
 Later, 
 'Lynx  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 05 Jan 98 21:20:06 -0800 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 b > From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>  
 b >  
 b >    On that, I think there is a consensus.  
 b >    One thing on which I think I disgree is the oft-stated maxim that  
 b > should be the normal-damage equivalent of HKA.  I think that this  
 b > taking the wrong approach to fixing the problem, and the reason that  
 b > been such a pain in the butt for so long.  What HA should be viewed  
 b > as is the hand-to-hand equivalent of Energy Blast.  Simply start with  
 b > trade Range for STR Adds, allow STR to more than double the attack in  
 b > exchange for not being able to Bounce (believe it or not, this is much  
 b > closer to balanced than one might think), and there you go!  In fact,  
 b > think that this is largely what Opal did with his version of HA, and  
 b > part of why I like it so much.  
 b > ---  
 b > Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  
 b > ---  
  
I have to remember to say lotsa nice things about TUSV when it comes  
out.  :)  
  
Actually, what I did was to enforce the 'only-up-to-double' HKA-type  
rule, only when the STR damage was being 'transformed' - ie when the  
HA had an advantage like AP, or Ranged, or Area Effect, or was Energy  
or (and I'm surprised no one has objected to this) Stun-only.  
  
When the HA is just a plain vanilla, normal physical HA, it adds to  
STR.  Seemed like the only reasonable way to do it, to me.  
  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 05 Jan 98 21:24:08 -0800 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 > >>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:  
 >  
 > F> What makes cost saving features of any sort reasonable within a  
 > F> campaign is that most other characters also have cost saving  
 > features,  
 > F> not their cost structure.  
 >  
 > But in the case of a high Strength this is not the case.  Most  
 > characters  
 > that are not bricks tend not to have high Strength scores.  Thus they  
 > have  
 > to pay for things like defenses, things that a brick gets for free.  
  
Yes, Rat, defenses - like a force field, or armor, or damage reduction -  
in a Power Framework, which (gasp!) saves points!  
  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58 * --------------------------------------------------  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 05 Jan 98 21:28:10 -0800 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 q > From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>  
 q > >  
 q > >Well, all the Hero games that dissallow EC sofar, also require  
 q > >Characteristic Maxima, which has the effect of increasing STR  
 q > >cost...  
 q >  
 q > Which book says this? Anyway, an EC is perfect for a character who has  
 q > a small number of powers more than one of which can be continuously in  
 q > effect - eg a Paladin, or a magic item (qv one of the spellbooks in  
 q > one  
 q > of the HSAs).  
  
No book says 'this must be so' it's just that, so far, all the Blank  
Hero Books, and sample campaigns that use automatic Characteristic  
Maxima, also dissallow Power Frameworks.  
  
And, yes an EC would be perfectly reasonable for some magic F/X in  
a Fantasy Hero game.  
  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 05 Jan 98 21:41:12 -0800 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 f > Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>  
 f > In real life, people who are hit with .50 cal machine gun rounds (3d6)  
 f > in the chest die as a rule. A system where they won't die in over one  
 f > third of all hits, even without quick medical attention, is just a bit  
 f > to loose, if I want a realistic game.  
 f >  
  
If you (normal 10 BOD, no resistant DEF), are reduced to zero BOD, you  
bleed to death in oh... 2 minutes, right?  That would make you DOA in  
just about any modern situation, unless there's someone with paramedics  
*right there*.  With a .50 cal, this happens over half the time, when  
you're hit anywhere except the etremities (even thighs & shoulders have  
a x1 multiple).  With the bleeding rule, any reasonable amount of  
BOD can also be fatal, given a little more time.  
  
This actually sounds pretty realistic to me.  Afterall, even .50 cal  
machine gun bullets aren't unerringly lethal.  True, some people buy  
up thier BOD, but the typical normal doesn't even usually have a 10,  
8 is more common, 5 probably isn't exactly rare.  
  
Years ago, when I first started participating in this list, someone  
was saying that a .50cal machine gun should do 10d Killing, to be  
'realistic...'  
  
 f > Please, people, none of this "If you want realism, go to GURPS." If  
 f > Champions is universal, I should be able to play a realistic game.  
 f > Even if I throw in all the optional rules, the chances of surviving  
 f > this one are just a bit high, especially as the hit location chart  
 f > balances overall.  
 f >  
 f > Filksinger  
  
The optional rules do get pretty nasty... I don't have the statistics  
to back it up (maybe someone out there does - mortality stats for  
GSWs anyone?), I think you might be overestimating the lethality of  
firearms just a bit.  Besides, I like a game where your chances of  
surviving are unrealisticly high, you're s'posed to be the Hero, right?  
:)  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun lotto 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:45:34 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Monday, January 05, 1998 5:44 PM, mcallahan wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
>Same example in champions: 17 body guy takes 3d6K with no Resistant 
Def. 
>Allow a roll of 11 on the killing attack. With the optional bleeding 
>rules every post seg 12 he takes 3d6 stun nnd and has a .42% chance 
of 
>loosing a body, unless the bleeding stops he's dead in 8 minutes. 
>Paramedic defaults to 8- with a minus 5 for the 11 body an average 
>person has a 3- to stop the bleeding (with the phase, turn, minute, 5 
>minute nature of skills and the advance of bleeding he has 3 chances 
to 
>stop the bleeding 3- at 1 phase, 4- at 1 turn, and 4-(ish) at one 
minute 
>for a chance for about a 4% chance of saving the guy. 
 
First of all, a nit-pick. That shouldn't be a .42%, it should be a 
42%, 100 times greater. 
 
Second of all, your example is way off. For the initial roll, and for 
every roll after that one until the character takes an additional -4 
BODY, the character has a .375, or 38% chance of rolling to stop the 
bleeding, not counting the paramedic. Thus, if this character actually 
loses a BODY a Turn automatically, every time the bleeding doesn't 
stop, he still has a .847 probability, or 85%, that the bleeding will 
stop before reaching the next level of bleeding. The odds per turn go 
up from there. Even though he has only two rolls left at this rate 
before reaching 0 BODY, he still has a good chance of saving himself. 
 
He will most likely not bleed to death. This example is broken in both 
systems. 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 05 Jan 98 21:51:14 -0800 
Subject: Re: Meta-Hero 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 s > Its a supplement called Meta-Hero, and is an explanation of  
 s > Rules work. (Not, you note, how the system works, but how the rules  
 s > system work.) The intent is to boil the entire system down to a bare  
 s > meta-rules and meta-mechanics from which the entire rules system was  
 s > together. This would:  
 s >  
  
Sounds interesting...  
  
 s > 1) show up all of the current inconsistencies in the rules  
 s > 2) show what logical gaps exist in the rules  
 s > 3) give guidelines for fixing 1) and filling 2)  
 s > 4) give give one a set of guidelines for extending the  
 s > rules with new abilities  
 s >    and powers, while making sure that these additions were in harmony.  
 s >  
  
You realize that you're basicly reverse-engineering George McDonalds  
brain, right.  :) :)  
  
 s >  
 s > As such, I'm finding a number of discussions on this list,  
 s > STR costs, the Incomplete Character rules, and the nuances  
 s > be very interesting and relevant to the project. And, of course, the  
 s > of how to interpret things like Damage Classes and rolled body is  
 s > (BTW, I know there isn't much of a market for such a thing, but I  
 s > analysis will greatly help my own worldbuilding efforts,  
 s > since I so often have  
 s > to tweak rules to get the results I want.)  
  
Yep, that's a suplement that would sepparate the casual role-players  
from the complete fanatics....  
  
I'd love to see it.  :)  
  
Seriously, if you ever make serious progress on it, send it to me,  
I'd be happy to give you some imput.  If you ever finish it, be  
sure to put it on the web (if you don't have a page we could U/L  
it to Red October).  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 05 Jan 98 22:00:46 -0800 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> there is one:  if you buy up *all* the stats that  
> STR adds to, then buying 
> more STR will save you points 
 
 t> In other words, virtually every character in existence (bearing in mind 
 t> that you actually only need to buy up all of those  
 t> stats except one). Look 
   
So everyone should be buying down the allowed one figured characteristic? 
That's getting to 'efficient' even for my taste :)    
   
 t> character who by conception should have had a 10-ish STR, but in 
 t> order to free up enough points to fit in some other things which 
 t> fit the concept, I had to take a 13, 15, 18, or even 20 STR. This is 
 t> a ridiculous situation. 
 
I've only come up with that problem once (out of hundreds of characters) 
- the concept included a 30 REC :).  Maybe it's a matter of style, I  
never buy up STN or END, just take what the CON & STR I figure I shoudl 
have gives me.  I've never had a problem being STN or END light... 
hmm... and I hardly ever buy up REC... so, yeah, I'd never come up 
against that.... 
  
 t> A "well designed" character is one for whom the  
 t> mechanics do a good job of 
 t> reflecting the concept. It isn't one which is  
 t> extremely point-efficient; 
 t> in a good system, there's no such thing. 
 
Then there's no such thing as a good system...  there are always 
efficiencies, even if there a result of diminishing marginal  
utility...  I guess if you have a character concept that cried out 
for a 10 STR, moderate CON, high PD (rather than base PD + FF or 
Armor - in a Framework, of course), high REC (but not a high enough 
CON to give it to you), and high STN (without enough BOD & CON to 
give it to you), then yes, the system doesn't represent that character 
as well as it could.  Seems like a very unusual circumstance to me... 
but then I've been playing so long that min/maxing is a involuntary 
reflex. :) 
> Anyway.  If you realy percieve it as a problem,  
> the obvious solution is  
> to stop give figured stats for STR (at least it  
> keeps STR at 5 Apts/d6 
> like other attack powers) 
 
 t> Yes - the last time the STR issue came up, I agreed that ditching the 
 t> idea of figured characteristics is the best solution. They just add 
 t> complexity without any corresponding increase in utility, and ditching 
 t> them would handle the STR issue more cleanly (if you  
   
Of course, you'd want to dump all the Figured Stats.  And, at that 
point, probably dump ECs as well, possibly restrict the other two 
Frameworks.  And, to keep characters at a similar power level, increase 
point totals by 50-100 points (actually, you'd probably want to  
reduce the value of limitations too... I'm not so sure about that 
part), maybe 150+150 or 200+150 or something... 
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 05 Jan 98 22:16:48 -0800 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> So yes, you could eliminate ECs, bump the cost of STR, and probably,  
> restrict other Power Frameworks.  But then, you'd have a game very  
> different from Hero - and rather similar to Fuzion.  
 
 t> "Fusion is bad. Fusion does X. Therefore X is bad." is not valid 
 t> reasoning. 
 
Actually, Fuzion isn't bad.  But it exists... I don't think we 
need Hero to become like Fuzion.  Hero should retain it's uniqueness. 
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 05 Jan 98 22:25:16 -0800 
Subject: Re: STR Cost (Re: Announ 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 p > improving on that.  I'd like to see a 4th Ed. Reprint or Revised, but  
 p > not hoping for conversions of any sort on my characters or every  
 p > my players have.  That would take months for me to convert 300+  
 p > characters and I'm not sure how long for the rest of you.  And of cours  
  
I *still* haven't converted all of my characters to 4th ed...  
It's been, what, 8 years?  
  
<sigh>  
  
Actually, with all the complaining about 4th Ed, I'd like to take  
a moment to consider all the good changes that have happened since  
1st Ed.  
  
Lets see....  
  
- You can't buy down more than 1 figured characteristic, that fixed  
  the problem with CON and STR.  
  
- You can't use limitations to stuff a 180 Apt power into a 60 Apt  
  multipower slot.  
  
- END Cost is always 1/10pts, instead of 1/10 for movement and 1/5  
  for everything else.  (I remember *always* having to buy 1/2 END -  
  ugh!)  
  
- Vehicles aren't *as* rediculous as they were in Champions II  
  (Remember the Exhaust 'Limitation' or that darn 'waste space'  
  result on vehicle hit locations - grrr!)  
  
- No more END Batteries!  They were so anoying...  
  
- Killing Attacks cost END.  
  
- STR can only double HKAs.  (In first ED, STR added 1d HKA/ 20 STR -  
  Armadillo's 1d KA claws were nasty...)  
  
- Elemental Controls are a lot easier than 1st Ed... (1st Ed ECs  
  were confusing...)  
  
- No more Transforms or Drains with 'Stun Multiples'  
  
- Extra Limbs:  Centipedes no longer cost 1000pts  
  
- Growth & DI - 5pts per level instead of 10 (Godzilla's still  
  hard to build though)  
  
- Requiring a reasonably common attack that affects Desolid.  
  
- Requiring a reasonably common defense for Useable Against Others  
  (Used to be mass...)  
  
- Package Deals aren't such an increadible deal (in 3rd you could 
 
  'hide' disads in them and get huge - ok 10 pts or so - package  
  bonuses)  
  
- Unifying the Chamions, DI, and 'Blank' Hero rules into the HSR!  
  (Finally, Hero was a truly universal system!)  
  
- Clearer version of VPP and Multipower  
  
- Requiring that all EC powers be 'complete' powers... used to be  
  you could stuff a few low-point special powers into one slot.  
  
- Clasifying Standard vs Special Powers...  
  
- Sense Groups  (Senses made so little sense before...)  
  
- Mental Powers: much improved!  
  
- Finally (Ninja Hero) letting us know how to do those wierd  
  'Danger International' Martial Arts (manuevers? extra dice? 
 
  what happened to multiples?  how do you design these things?)  
  
- Consolidating all those skills and talents into 1 book.  
 
 
- Max Disads per type instead of halving values of Disads  
  after the first 2 per type (then quartering...)  
  
- 75 + 75 Heroic games instead of those awfull half-the-points  
  Disads from DI & Justice Inc.  (I'd been running 75+75 games  
  for years, but it was great to see it official)  
  
- No more Mental Paralysis!  
  
- Requiring reasonably common ways to stop Uncontrollable powers  
  and Continuing Charages.  
  
... lots more things I can't think of off the top of my head.  
  
Champions was a great game, and it's amazing how much better  
it is now!  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
Subject: Long-Range Teleportation 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:25:53 -0600 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<x-html><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> 
<HTML> 
<HEAD> 
 
<META content=text/html;charset=iso-8859-1 http-equiv=Content-Type><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> 
<META content='"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=GENERATOR> 
</HEAD> 
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff> 
<DIV><FONT face="" size=3>In my game we have been using FTL w/Desolidification  
for long time as a means of long-range teleportation, either within or without  
the atmosphere.&nbsp; A strict interpretation of the rules says this is not  
allowed.&nbsp; We don't mind changing rules to suit our purposes but we wondered  
if there shouldn't be some way within the rules to allow for long-range  
teleportation.&nbsp; To stay within our point and DC limits we can only achieve  
a couple of hundred miles.</FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT face="" size=3></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV><FONT face="" size=3>I was curious as to what the other list subscribers  
use to achieve this effect, if anything.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> 
</x-html>From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: Re: Double Energy per DC? 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 01:35:53 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
Joining in the debate between Stirling Westrup and Stainless Steel Rat: 
 
>>>>> "SW" == Stirling Westrup <sti@CAM.ORG> writes: 
 
SSR>>> If you are serious about this... 
 
SW>> Actually, I am serious. The discussion on this list has gotten me to 
SW>> dust off a project I first conceived of on the day I bought my copy of 
SW>> the BBB. 
 
SSR> Then I strongly suggest you acquire a copy of 3G^3 (Guns! Guns! Guns!) 
SSR> (oops! I see you already have :). 
 
> [...] 
 
SSR>>> "damage" is a function of force over area modified by the time required 
SSR>>> to transfer energy. 
 
SW>> This tells you how hard you hit something, not how much damage you did. 
 
SSR> When you factor in time of energy transfer it becomes "damage".  I can 
lean 
SSR> against a wall all day and impart more energy into it that way than a 
SSR> bullet from a .45.  The .45 still does more damage because of the time 
SSR> factor. 
 
In a sense, I see Stainless Steel Rat's point here.  I interpret pressure as a 
crucial part if not the deciding measure of damage suffered by an object or 
character.  Pressure is how the strength or hardness of materials is measured, 
after all.  Steady, continuous pressure is easy to measure in lab tests, but 
damned difficult to measure in collision situations because of the problem of 
estimating the time involved.  The shorter the contact time, the greater the 
average force involved.  The difference between a collision occurring in 0.1 
second and it happening in 0.01 second is a whole order of magnitude in the 
difference of the force/pressure.  That's why I stick with energy as potential 
damage--much simpler.  
 
When you lean against a wall all day, you're body imparts only modest pressure 
to the wall.  Only a fraction of the force of your body's weight presses 
against the wall, the rest down through your feet to the floor.  Your body's 
weight is also spread over many square inches or cm, so the modest pressure 
means little to the wall. 
 
However, I don't understand what Stainless Steel Rat means by "imparting 
energy" into the wall by leaning on it.  What kind of energy?  Heat energy from 
your body?  Is the wall steadily sagging throughout the day under the weight of 
your body?  If the part of the wall you're leaning against isn't moving any 
distance, then, regardless of the force and pressure, no work is being done to 
the wall (W=Fd).  No work done, no energy imparted.   
 
When a bullet strikes the wall, the surface area impacted is quite small.  The 
collision also occurs in a very short span of time, so the force involved is 
tremendous.  If the bullet had the same mass and velocity but a greater surface 
area, like a steel sheet instead of a steel slug, the pressure on the wall 
would be much less.  Discounting air resistance, it's the same momentum, same 
kinetic energy, same force, but a tiny fraction of the pressure.  So the steel 
bullet has the penetrating power the steel sheet lacks.  Pressure can mean the 
difference between a normal attack and a killing attack, an AP attack and a 
non-AP.  All very complicated. 
 
> [...] 
 
SW>> So, I reiterate, how does one get an *8-fold* increase in potential 
SW>> damage from a doubling in energy released, since this is what the BBB 
SW>> gives for chemical explosives. 
 
SSR> I wish I knew the math well enough that I could give you a solid answer. 
SSR> Been a long time since I mucked around with this stuff for real.  All I 
can 
SSR> say at this point is that the ratio of energy to damage is non-linear, and 
SSR> what appears to be an 8-fold increase in potential damage is actually a 
SSR> factor of a squared value.  It appears to be an 8-fold increase because 
you 
SSR> have not extended the curve far enough to see its true nature. 
 
I don't grok the points Stainless Steel Rat has been trying to make with 
explosion energy.  I'd like to see the math.  Until then, I'm left puzzled. 
 
If you, SSR, do have some tables or figures on damage energies or forces or 
whatever, comparable to some of the things I've posted, I'd like to see them to 
compare methods.  
 
I'll be taking this up further in a post on explosives. 
 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 01:03:42 -0600 
From: James Van Sickle <khaine@swbell.net> 
Subject: Unsubscribe 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Please unsubscribe me from this mailing list. 
 
Sorry boys and girls.  Time to make my departure. 
 
-James 
 
 
 
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 23:43:46 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
Subject: Autofire Damage Shield? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Hello; 
    I'm trying to simulate the effect of a speedster who does a 
whirlwind of multiple 
punches at lightspeed, and anyone who gets too close gets hit by them 
over and over 
again. 
 
    Just by title, a combination of Autofire and Damage Shield seems to 
make sense. 
However Autofire needs an attack roll to figure out the number of hits. 
Yet Damage 
Shield uses no attack roll and simply does the damage to the offending 
victim. 
 
    So I considered an Amor Piercing Damage Shield. With the special 
effect being 
that AP is being used to simulate hundreds of multiple hits. 
 
    Any other takes? Suggestions? 
 
 
-- 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing 
 
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at 
 
some point. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
 
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 01:40:27 -0800 
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@sprynet.com> 
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com 
Organization: None 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist part 2 of 2 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
Captain Spith wrote: 
 
> 
> 
>    As far as examples go, I would definitely like to see the Major 
> Archetypes displayed, as well as some unique, non-'standard' types to 
> demonstrate the more unique powers, and alternate applications of 
> standard ones. 
>    Ideally, I would like to see - though this may be considered 
> excessive, at least from a publishing standpoint - at least two clear 
> examples for every power and talent application; one to show the basic, 
> straightforward use, and one to show an alternative or unique 
> apoplication of the mechanic.  This would help encourage use of the 
> versatility of the system. 
> 
> -- 
>    -Capt. Spith 
>    Savior of Humanity 
>    Secular Messiah 
 
  Boy do I agree with that! 
 
Chad Riley 
Savior of Very Little If Anything.... 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 03:59:18 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:51 PM 1/4/98 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>I disagree. What we need is a HA at 5/die to complement HKA; players 
>who don't need the damage-conversion ability of HA could just take  
>STR, only to deal damage. 
 
There IS no damage conversion ability of HA.  HA does the exact same damage 
as STR.  STR can, for all intents and purposes, be considered to "contain" 
+1d6 HA per 5 points. 
 
Characters who "need" to convert STR damage to an /advantage/ should buy 
that advantage on their STR *and* any extra HA dice; this is no more 
illogical than the requirement that Damage Resistance have the same 
advantages as the PD and ED below it. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 03:59:20 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
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At 02:49 PM 1/4/98 -0800, Opal wrote: 
>So, STR is broken because it saves you pionts and EC is likewise  
>broken because it saves you points...  
>  
>I can see how this can be distasteful, but it is balanced.  
 
No, both are broken because they save you points WITHOUT REASON.  If you 
omit those last two words, then you've fundementally misunderstood the whole 
thrust of my statements.  There's nothing wrong with "saving points" -- 
that's what Disadvantages and Power Limitations do, after all.  But the idea 
behind both is that you take a (pro-rated) gutpunch for the points you get back. 
 
Elemental Controls reduce the point cost of an ability without reducing its 
utility one iota.  Ergo, it is a "pure point crock".  Whether or not there 
are other crocks does not make this right -- the fact remains that we now 
have a system where two characters with the exact same game abilities can 
have radically different costs.  The other two frameworks aren't pure 
crocks, since they actually alter the utility of one's powers. 
 
Similarly, STR is a point crock as well, since it gives you a set of 
abilities for a radically cheaper price than their ostensible point value, 
without limiting their effect in play. 
 
>So yes, you could eliminate ECs, bump the cost of STR, and probably,  
>restrict other Power Frameworks.  But then, you'd have a game very  
>different from Hero - and rather similar to Fuzion.  
 
1) I wouldn't eliminate ECs, just change them to make them functional (i.e. 
actually having a game effect rather than just a cost break). 
2) As I've said many times, I have no objection to the other frameworks, 
since they actually DO something. 
3) HERO is *already* "rather similar to Fuzion", by intent and design of the 
latter; of the differences between the two systems, the lack of frameworks 
pales in comparison to, oh, the single-digit characteristics & skills or the 
semi-open aim-high die rolls. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
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Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 03:59:23 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
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At 03:34 PM 1/4/98 -0800, Opal wrote: 
>> To be frank, I don't think you should be able to do it with HKA -- as  
>> say, "STR can't do energy damage", which I think is just plain common  
>  
>Well that certainly clarifies that bit of your objection...  So,  
>we need to dump HKAs, Power Frameworks, and Double the cost of  
>STR...  Anything else?  
 
You seem to have "Psych Lim: Must exaggerate Vox's opinions to the point of 
libel (inf,s)".   
 
To the best of my knowledge, I've never said anything about "dumping" HKAs 
or Power Frameworks.  I've said that I don't think HKAs should be capable of 
doing energy damage, and that I think Elemental Controls (*a* framework, not 
*all* frameworks) should be either fixed (i.e. made to have an actual effect 
on the utility of its member powers), or dropped if it proves impossible to fix. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
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Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 03:59:25 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
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At 04:02 PM 1/4/98 -0800, Opal wrote: 
>It makes no sense, and it's not true.  If you want to buy up your  
>STR it costs points.  Even if you buy down one of your Figured  
>Charactersitcs.  There is no situation in which buying up STR will 
>save you points - OK, there is one:  if you buy up *all* the stats 
>that STR adds to, then buying more STR will save you points - but that's 
>just an example of a badly designed character.  Just like if you 
>were to try to build the Human Torch without using any kind of Power 
>Framework. 
 
Assuming that the character conception calls for those stats to be bought 
separately, it's only "badly designed" on account of not exploiting existing 
point crocks.  No matter how you slice it, the fact remains that a character 
is forced to pay MORE points for the privilege of having/wanting less actual 
lifting ability, throwing distance, etc.   
 
>Agreed.  STR is not the thing to go comparing HA to.  Whether its because 
>you think STR is overpriced, or I think it balances with Frameworks.  
>Either way, HA should be measured against other attack powers like 
>EB and HKA. 
 
I beg to differ.  For one, HA isn't (currently) an attack power, in the 
sense of "a power that can be considered synonymous with an attack 
maneuver".  It's a power that augments a different attack (namely, your 
STR-based combat maneuvers), much the same as Stretching (one gives extra 
damage, the other gives extra range).   
 
HA doesn't say "A character with this Standard Power can attack in 
hand-to-hand combat", which would make it parallel to EB and HKA ... for 
obvious reasons: every character can already attack in hand-to-hand combat, 
USING STR.  Ergo, "A character with this Standard Power can increase the 
amount of damage he does in hand to hand combat". Since that damage comes 
from STR, HA must be compared to STR. 
 
The "power" you're looking for to measure up to EB and HKA -- a "Hand Energy 
Blast", if you will -- simply doesn't exist in current HERO mechanics ... 
and, it probably shouldn't.  Powers, if you recall, are "abilities beyond 
those of mortal men"; making hand-to-hand attacks are something mortal men 
have been able to do since the beginning of evolution (or Creation, for the 
fundementalists amongst us).  The "power" that does this is the Strike 
maneuver, in combination with the STR Characteristic -- in essence, that 
"power" is a hardcoded function of the game mechanics. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
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Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 03:59:28 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
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At 03:49 PM 1/4/98 -0800, Opal wrote: 
>That the 5th Ed isn't going to be 'Hero done right'  and changing 
>the cost of characteristics will change the point totals of all 
>the characters built with those stats.  That will affect a *lot* 
>of players....  and make the extant books 'less useful' (to people 
>who care about NPC point costs, which may not be you or me, but there  
>are some who do). 
 
Actually, I'd think a lot of us who think the price of STR should be 
increased DO care about NPC point costs.  Really, that's been the crux of my 
feelings on any "point crock" matter.  I want those NPCs to have honest 
point totals -- to know that any two 100* point characters have a reasonable 
PLAY balance of abilities.  The more "free points" that are available in the 
system, the less trustworthy final totals are -- is character A really 
weaker than character B, or did he just exploit the system better? 
 
* As a sign of how untrustworthy those points already are ... why is it that 
HERO players talk in term of gross rather than net points? This is always 
struck me as a sign that maybe we're not being brutally fair in regards to 
the Basic Law of Disadvantages. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
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Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 03:59:31 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: A Sample Character 
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        I sat down and spun a character off the top of my head to see just 
how hard it WOULD be to design a brick with 2 pt. STR.  The character below 
looks good to me ... but then again, I have the benefit of knowing my GM has 
deflated the DEX/SPDs of printed characters to fit the mortal paradigm (no 
normal humans with 30+ stats, please), so he's probably going to seem slow 
to some people.   
 
Just some food for thought. 
 
IMPACT 
        * Characteristics (148) 
        ======================= 
[80]    STR: 60 
[15]    DEX: 15 
[26]    CON: 23 
[6]     BOD: 13 
[5]     INT: 15 
[2]     EGO: 11 
[5]     PRE: 15 
[2]     COM: 14 
[0]     PD:  12 
[4]     ED:   9 
[5]     SPD:  3 
[-4]    REC: 15 
[2]     END: 50 
[0]     STN: 55 
 
        * Powers (45) 
        ============= 
[45]    +15 DEF Armor 
 
        * Skills, Talents, & Perks (47) 
        =============================== 
[12]    Boxing Style (Jab, Cross, Block) 
[2]     KS: Boxing 
[15]    +3 w/HTH Combat 
[6]     Combat Driving 12-, Computer Programming 12- 
[6]     Paramedic 12-, Persuasion 12- 
[4]     AK: Campaign City 11-, PS: Keyboardist 11- 
[2]     SS: Chemistry 8-, Medicine 8- 
 
        * Disadvantages (140) 
        ===================== 
[-5]    DF: Inhuman physiology (ec, n) 
[-10]   DF: Boxing Style (c,n) 
[-15]   Hunted: Der Sinn 11- (ap) 
[-10]   Hunted: Bearsark 8- (ap) 
[-10]   Watched: U.S. Government 8- (mp, nci) 
[-5]    Phys: Doubled metabolism (inf, s) 
[-20]   Psych: Code vs. Killing (c, t) 
[-15]   Psych: Trusts authority (c, s) 
[-15]   Psych: Chivalrous (c, s) 
[-10]   Rep: "Solid citizen" hero 11- 
[-15]   Secret Identity (Lance Arthur) 
[-10]   x2 vs. toxin attacks 
 
BACKGROUND: Lance Arthur is a student in the pre-med program at Campaign 
City University, who fell victim to the plans of Der Sinn (The Mind), the 
evil scientist whose plots once fueled the Third Reich's war machine. Used 
as a test subject for Sinn's "Parabolic Steroid", his physical strength and 
durability were augmented to superhuman proportions; escaping with the help 
of a federal agent tracking Sinn's activities, he used his new power to foil 
Sinn's schemes at the college, and forged the costumed identity of Impact to 
continue his heroic career.  In his brief career to date, he's earned the 
enmity of Bearsark, another product of Sinn's engineering with a far more 
bloodthirsty attitude. 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
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Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 03:59:34 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
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At 06:48 AM 1/5/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   One thing on which I think I disgree is the oft-stated maxim that HA 
>should be the normal-damage equivalent of HKA.  I think that this would be 
>taking the wrong approach to fixing the problem, and the reason that HA has 
>been such a pain in the butt for so long.  What HA should be viewed (IMO) 
>as is the hand-to-hand equivalent of Energy Blast.  Simply start with EB, 
>trade Range for STR Adds, allow STR to more than double the attack in 
>exchange for not being able to Bounce (believe it or not, this is much 
>closer to balanced than one might think), and there you go!  In fact, I 
>think that this is largely what Opal did with his version of HA, and it's 
>part of why I like it so much. 
 
The reason why HA has been a pain in the butt so long is that comparing it 
to *any* existing Power is the wrong approach.  The ability to do normal 
damage attacks in hand to hand combat doesn't QUALIFY as a Power.  It's 
already integrated into the system, because anyone can do it.  This is why 
the HA Power exists in its current state: all that is necessary is a power 
to adjust the damage of those hand-to-hand attacks which every character is, 
by necessity, already capable of making. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
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Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 03:59:37 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
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At 03:15 PM 1/5/98 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>I got into this debate by correcting a deliberately bad example of why 
>STR was superior in cost savings to EC. The response I got was that 
>comparing STR to EC was a bad way to prove balance. Prove an example 
>wrong, and watch your opponent declare the example's basis to be 
>meaningless and invalid.:) 
 
First of all, the "opponent" declaring the example's basis to be meaningless 
and invalid was different from the one who made it in the first place (i.e. me). 
 
Secondly, calling my example "deliberately bad" is a little strong, and a 
lot presumptive.  I wanted to show that STR was a point crock, i.e. that you 
get a higher "Active Cost" than "Real Cost" without actually limiting the 
effects in any fashion. I did so by demonstrating that it actually costs 
less than an Elemental Control with the same abilities, working off the 
postulate that Elemental Control already IS, by its very purpose, a point 
crock (same definition as before). 
 
Whether it's possible to construct an Elemental Control that exploits the 
system better than STR wasn't really necessary or relevant, so I didn't do 
it. I'm not trying to say "STR busted because it's better than ECs!"  If I 
was, an in-depth analysis of the two in comparison would have been 
appropriate. I was just saying "STR gives you more points than its worth -- 
see, the cost is less than the same abilities in an EC, which we KNOW costs 
less than its worth!"  Got it? 
 
>_ALL_ characteristics are a "point crock". 
 
For the record, you're right -- this is a better argument than "no, it's 
balanced because of frameworks".  I believe Erol Bayburt suggested the same 
thing very recently. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
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Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 03:59:39 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
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At 09:50 PM 1/5/98 -0700, Curtis Gibson wrote: 
>So anything that allows a character to save points is broken? I 
>understand about trying to limit munchkinism but this seems a bit 
>obssessive. 
 
No, anything that allows a character to save points WITHOUT PENALTY is 
broken.  Power Limitations and Disadvantages, for example, do not do this -- 
you get points back in exchange for accepting some headache in use. 
 
-- 
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do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
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Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 03:59:41 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
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At 10:00 PM 1/5/98 -0800, Opal wrote: 
>as well as it could.  Seems like a very unusual circumstance to me... 
>but then I've been playing so long that min/maxing is a involuntary 
>reflex. :) 
 
Good, good.  The first step to overcoming a personal flaw is admitting that 
you have the problem. :^] 
 
-- 
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do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
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Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 03:59:43 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: STR Cost (Re: Announ 
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At 10:25 PM 1/5/98 -0800, Opal wrote: 
>- Package Deals aren't such an increadible deal (in 3rd you could 
>  'hide' disads in them and get huge - ok 10 pts or so - package  
>  bonuses)  
 
There's reason to believe this is still the case. 
   
>- Requiring that all EC powers be 'complete' powers... used to be  
>  you could stuff a few low-point special powers into one slot.  
 
Well, now you can still do that, you just have to Link them all. :/ 
  
>- No more Mental Paralysis!  
 
Some players (not me) would consider this a flaw. 
  
>Champions was a great game, and it's amazing how much better  
>it is now!  
 
This would be more accurate to say "The HERO System was a great game, 
especially its Champions segment, and it's amazing how much better it is 
now".  Remember, "Champions" is more a genre label than a game rules label 
(thus, both HERO 4th Edition and Fuzion's The New Millenium are "Champions"). 
 
-- 
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do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
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Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 03:59:45 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: My 5th Ed. Wishlist (w/a surprise) 
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Since it's the season for soul-baring :], I thought I'd jot down my thoughts 
on a 5th edition.  I'll put the surprise up front: NOT on this wishlist is 
any change to the cost of STR (or any other Characteristic). Yes, I know 
I've argued a lot that the cost of STR is too low.  But cost issues in HERO 
just aren't important in a publication sense to me -- as someone else 
pointed out, you could randomly jumble up all the CHAR costs, and the game 
would still PLAY the same, it just wouldn't account the same. 
 
So, here's what I *would* like to see, listed in general order of 
preference.  It's a rather short list. :]  
 
*       Clarify the following grey areas -- I'll be perfectly happy no 
        matter what the ruling is, so long as there IS a ruling on: 
        - Linked.  Not just the limitation -- a long while back, when 
        I first got involved in The Dread Linked debate, Steve Peterson 
        made the cryptic statement that there was actually more than one 
        way to link powers, and that all those ways were prohibited in 
        Elemental Controls.  I'd love to know what those other ways were, 
        even if its just "a slip of the tongue on Steve P.'s part". 
 
        - "Attack Powers".  I know Rat's religious conviction that there 
        is no such thing as an "attack power", and I'd love to agree with 
        him (since we've been on a roll lately). But the trouble is, the 
        authors of the BBB seem a little confused on this issue, 
        especially in the Advantages section, where they use the terms 
        "Power", "offensive Power", and "attack" pretty much  
        interchangeably (cf. "AVLD", "Continuous", "Does Knockback",  
        "No Range Penalty", and "NND"). I'd like this cleaned up -- it 
        seems that the intent of certain Advantages is to only be applied 
        to powers that require an Attack Roll to use, i.e. "attack  
        Powers", but if so this should be outlined more clearly. 
 
        - "Other Maneuver".  Related to both the "Linked" and "Attack 
        Power" issues is the occasional use of Power names in place of 
        Combat Maneuvers.  To use "Energy Blast" or "Mind Control" in 
        a manner equivalent to "Strike" or "Grab" implies that each such 
        Power is its own Maneuver, and can't be combined with each other 
        -- and yet does not entirely eliminate that possibility. This  
        forms the core of the arguments over "stacking" Powers, and 
        should be outlined one way or the other in the rules. 
 
        - Package Deals.  Do Package Disadvantages count against the 
        character's total Disadvantages, or is the Package Cost a lump 
        sum? 
 
*       Break apart the DCV, PER, and KB effects from Density Increase 
        and/or Size Powers.  These things should be consistent functions 
        of size and/or weight, regardless of the source.  In other words, 
        a 400 kg something-or-other should take -2" of KB whether it's 
        a character with 2 levels of Density Increase or just a rock that 
        the GM says weighs 400 kg.  Furthermore, DCV and PER should be 
        based on /relative/ size. Godzilla should have roughly the same 
        shot to hit or notice Gamera that I do hitting a guard dog (i.e. 
        each target is about half the attacker's size). 
 
*       DON'T change Mind Scan to a Constant Power, unless all Mental 
        Powers are similarly altered.  Mind Scan does not "ought" to be 
        Constant any moreso than Mind Control, Mental Illusions, or 
        Telepathy -- figure out how you want the paradigm to work, and 
        stick with it for the whole group. 
 
*       Use the same revision to Regeneration that Steve Peterson 
        suggested for Fuzion some time ago (I have no idea whether 
        it ever got into print): 5 pts. (HERO) to move BODY recovery  
        time up one level on the time chart). 
 
*       Make Elemental Controls DO something.  The other two frameworks 
        are based on the concept of multiple powers sharing the same 
        "pool" of points, a kind of "timeslicing" for points.  EC appears 
        on the surface to work similiarly, but in practice there's no 
        restriction on the member slots access to those points -- all the 
        powers get to use all the "reserve" points at the same time.  At 
        this point in time, the best fix I could think of is to make the 
        SFX restriction tighter -- that EC slots don't represent "similar 
        special effects" but rather =the same effect=, i.e. all the slots 
        are different facets of a single ability -- and then instate the 
        "Adjustment Powers can hit the reserve and affect all slots" bit. 
        I'm open to any other reasonable idea, though. 
 
*       Include the martial arts design rules as "core mechanics", which 
        they most certainly are (after all, they underlie nearly all the 
        current maneuvers).  They're useful in just about any non-modern 
        campaign setting, and really shouldn't be broken off into a 
        supplement. 
 
*       Nix "Affects Desolid".  It's an arbitrary, game-mechanic-minded 
        concept that's neither really necessary (given the current rules 
        for Desolid) nor appropriate (given the unlikeliness of any 
        attack's special effect being able to nail ALL conceivable  
        Desolid special effects). 
 
*       Really, really look hard at the +20 Immune to Mental Powers 
        element of Desolid and ask yourself if it's appropriate.  I'm not 
        saying it is or it isn't, just expressing a little doubt -- after 
        someone groused about it to me earlier this week, I've found 
        myself unable to think of an SFX which I can say "Huzzah! This is 
        definitely in need of that construction!" 
 
--      
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 03:59:51 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
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At 11:27 AM 1/6/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>O> Frameworks 'save you points'  
> 
>Frameworks reward a good character concept. 
 
To be more accurate, Elemental Controls reward a *uniform* character 
concept.  Whether it's "good" or not is a matter of opinion. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
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Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 03:59:54 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: AutoFire Martial Arts? 
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At 12:30 PM 1/6/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>No.  You cannot put advantages on martial arts skills. 
> 
>You can buy powers with similar effects, and put advantages on those, 
>however. 
 
And, if your GM wishes to allow it, you may buy "naked advantages" on the 
final effect of a Martial Arts maneuver.  Which is to say, a player with a 
10 STR character who wanted to make a Martial Strike Maneuver Armor Piercing 
or Autofire would first run to his GM and beg, then pay 10 points (+1/2 on 
the final 4d6 Strike, /not/ the 4 pts. of the Maneuver). 
 
This option is detailed in "The Ultimate Martial Artist", and I've seen it 
used successfully in the "Arcade Kumite" events a friend ran at GenCon. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
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Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 04:49:59 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>  
> On 4 Jan 1998, Opal wrote: 
>  
> > So yes, you could eliminate ECs, bump the cost of STR, and probably, 
> > restrict other Power Frameworks.  But then, you'd have a game very 
> > different from Hero - and rather similar to Fuzion. 
>  
> "Fusion is bad. Fusion does X. Therefore X is bad." is not valid 
> reasoning. 
 
   As you configure the arguement, sure - faulty logic.  However, 
forgive me if I overstep my bounds, but I believe Opal's arguement was 
more accurately; 
   "Fusion is bad _because_ Fusion does X.  Therefore X is what was bad 
in the first place. 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: TUSV: Monster Trucks 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:25:27 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Bob, 
 
I'd like to see rules for stunt vehicles and monster trucks. Do you plan 
to include rules for driving up a ramp and jumping over five cars? How 
far can my motorcycle jump? How do I aim at the other ramp? What happens 
to me if I fall? 
 
How about rules for a monster truck running over / climbing over a 
normal vehicle and crushing it? What damage is done? I'd suggest using 
my "weight damage" rules from the Walking Tall section of 
http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1905/haym15a.html combined with 
move by. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:01:04 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Subject: Re: Autofire Damage Shield? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Rook wrote: 
 
>     Just by title, a combination of Autofire and Damage Shield seems to 
> make sense. 
> However Autofire needs an attack roll to figure out the number of hits. 
> Yet Damage 
> Shield uses no attack roll and simply does the damage to the offending 
> victim. 
 
I'm under the impression that autofire attacks that don't require normal 
rolls to hit (or are applied against limited defenses) are an additional 
+1 advantage. This is stated near the end of the autofire advantage 
description. I think if you apply the autofire damage shield with this 
additional advantage, all shots connect--so the GM has to be careful to 
limit the number of shots bought or make sure it stays an END-draining 
procedure. 
 
For you Champions gurus, does this additional +1 advantage on autofire 
apply to area effect attacks? Explosions? 
 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 06:14:34 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Monday, January 05, 1998 9:43 PM, Opal wrote: 
 
 
> f > Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
> f > In real life, people who are hit with .50 cal machine gun rounds 
(3d6) 
> f > in the chest die as a rule. A system where they won't die in 
over one 
> f > third of all hits, even without quick medical attention, is just 
a bit 
> f > to loose, if I want a realistic game. 
> f > 
> 
>If you (normal 10 BOD, no resistant DEF), are reduced to zero BOD, 
you 
>bleed to death in oh... 2 minutes, right?  That would make you DOA in 
>just about any modern situation, unless there's someone with 
paramedics 
>*right there*.  With a .50 cal, this happens over half the time, when 
>you're hit anywhere except the etremities (even thighs & shoulders 
have 
>a x1 multiple).  With the bleeding rule, any reasonable amount of 
>BOD can also be fatal, given a little more time. 
 
 
If hit with an 8 BODY (1 chance in 4, roughly), you will, even with 
bleeding rules, survive better than half the time. 
 
>This actually sounds pretty realistic to me.  Afterall, even .50 cal 
>machine gun bullets aren't unerringly lethal.  True, some people buy 
>up thier BOD, but the typical normal doesn't even usually have a 10, 
>8 is more common, 5 probably isn't exactly rare. 
 
 
Dead average for an adult male, age 17-50, is supposed to be 10, dead 
average for all adults is supposed to be 8. An average soldier 
probably has 11 or 12, as they start at 10 on the average, then 
eliminate the sickly ones. 
 
>Years ago, when I first started participating in this list, someone 
>was saying that a .50cal machine gun should do 10d Killing, to be 
>'realistic...' 
 
 
Now, that's just plain ridiculous. I have to assume that this person 
knows very little about weapon lethality. He obviously didn't put any 
thought into the effect on inanimate objects. 
 
> f > Please, people, none of this "If you want realism, go to GURPS." 
If 
> f > Champions is universal, I should be able to play a realistic 
game. 
> f > Even if I throw in all the optional rules, the chances of 
surviving 
> f > this one are just a bit high, especially as the hit location 
chart 
> f > balances overall. 
> f > 
> f > Filksinger 
> 
>The optional rules do get pretty nasty... I don't have the statistics 
>to back it up (maybe someone out there does - mortality stats for 
>GSWs anyone?), I think you might be overestimating the lethality of 
>firearms just a bit. 
 
With modern medical attention, people shot in the torso in the United 
States with a pistol today have about an 85% survival rate. This 
includes everything from a .22 to a .44 Magnum. 
 
Rifle survival rates for torso hits, OTOH, are significantly less than 
50%. These vary typically from a .22 long rifle to .30-06. Much higher 
than that is very rare. 
 
A .50 cal machine gun hit to the torso is considerably worse than this 
average. I don't have statistics, but it is very bad. 
 
I don't have too much trouble with the lethality rate in Hero, once 
you figure in Hit Locations and Bleeding. Modern medicine has changed 
the fatality rates for that enormously. My problems here are twofold- 
first, that a .50 cal machine gun bullet can graze you fairly often, 
but a car can't (killing lotto vs normal stability), and second, that 
people die too damn fast in Hero. In Hero, if you have time to make it 
to the hospital, don't bother, you lived. 
 
The dramatically lower lethality rate for firearms in the last half of 
the twentieth century are due to advanced techniques, pioneered on 
battlefields. These aren't first aid, they can't be carried about in a 
bag, and in Hero they can never be anything but a plot device. 
 
Maybe what I really want is to roll normal damage like killing damage, 
and make Bleeding by minutes or tens of minutes. 
 
>Besides, I like a game where your chances of 
>surviving are unrealisticly high, you're s'posed to be the Hero, 
right? 
>:) 
 
Yah, I guess so. The only game I can think of where high lethality is 
required for proper play is Paranoia, which is also the only game I GM 
using its own rules. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 06:23:54 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Autofire Damage Shield? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:43 PM 1/5/98 -0800, Rook wrote: 
>Hello; 
>    I'm trying to simulate the effect of a speedster who does a 
>whirlwind of multiple 
>punches at lightspeed, and anyone who gets too close gets hit by them 
>over and over 
>again. 
> 
>    Just by title, a combination of Autofire and Damage Shield seems to 
>make sense. 
>However Autofire needs an attack roll to figure out the number of hits. 
>Yet Damage 
>Shield uses no attack roll and simply does the damage to the offending 
>victim. 
> 
>    So I considered an Amor Piercing Damage Shield. With the special 
>effect being 
>that AP is being used to simulate hundreds of multiple hits. 
> 
>    Any other takes? Suggestions? 
 
   How about Area Effect (Radius, with a Limitation to reduce the radius to 
only the hexes including and surrounding the character), Autofire, 
Continuous, No Range? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it rea 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 98 09:26:21 -0500 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>A reporter was talking about a new type of bulletproof vest that the  
>>police departments around here were getting, how safe they were, and how  
>>they would save lives, yaddda, yadda, yadda. At on point he states the  
>>the vest "would render the officer completely safe from a hangun at >close  
>>range, by dispersing the energy of the bullet." Another reporter then  
>>steps in and fires a .32 into the first reporters belly (he was wearing  
>>the vest). Reporter one drops to his hands and knees and begins screaming  
>>obscenities and yelling about how much pain he was in. 
> 
>>So much for "dispersing the energy"! 
> 
>So much for "dispersing the energy"!?!? 
> 
Maybe I should have said "So much for being completely safe".  :-| 
 
>Let's look at this in game terms for a sec.  
>The reporter took a 1d6 killing attack to the stomach (*4 stun mult) 
>while supprised out of combat (*2 stun) for between 8 and 48 stun 
 
He was not surprised; it was planned and set-up. And a .32 handgun is  
usually a  
1d6+1k, which gives you 2-7 body and 8-42 stun 
 
>lets assume a roll of 3, a def 6 jacket, and a 2pd reporter. 
>The reporter takes 16 stun, enough to stun him (and to make him fall to 
>hands and knees) but not enought to knock him out (thus leaving him free 
>to curse mightly about how much that hurt). He also took 0 body. With 
>out the vest he would have taken 24 stun and 3 body,and be stunned, 
>knocked out and bleeding. Once again a pretty good job of "dispersing 
>the energy" 
 
lets assume a roll of 4 (4.5 is average) a DEF of 5 (since light kevlar  
is listed as DEF 3, Kevlar listed as DEF 5, and Heavy Kevlar listed as  
DEF 7 in the BBB, and I really don't know what kind they were showing)  
and a PD 2 reporter. The reporter will take 0 Body, and 9 STUN, and  
furthermore, unless he is out of shape, will not even be stunned.  
 
HOWEVER, The implication of the reporters statements was that the he  
would take _NO_ stun or body. 
 
                                         |  David A. Fair 
        Think Different                  |  SDS International 
                                         |  dfair@sdslink.com 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 06:28:02 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Long-Range Teleportation 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<x-rich>At 12:25 AM 1/6/98 -0600, Remnant wrote:  
 
>>>> 
 
<excerpt><fontfamily><param></param>In my game we have been using FTL 
w/Desolidification for long time as a means of long-range teleportation, 
either within or without the atmosphere.  A strict interpretation of the 
rules says this is not allowed.  We don't mind changing rules to suit our 
purposes but we wondered if there shouldn't be some way within the rules 
to allow for long-range teleportation.  To stay within our point and DC 
limits we can only achieve a couple of hundred miles. 
 
</fontfamily>   
 
<fontfamily><param></param>I was curious as to what the other list 
subscribers use to achieve this effect, if anything. 
 
</fontfamily> 
 
</excerpt><<<<<<<< 
 
 
  I think that the "common wisdom" on the list is to use a variant on 
Extra-Dimensional Movement for long-range teleportation. 
 
--- 
 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
 
</x-rich> 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 06:31:51 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Str Cost 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:39 PM 1/5/98 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Firelynx16 wrote: 
> 
>> And *that* is where the GM has to step in and keep players from buying a 
>> high Str on a character whose concept doesn't call for it, just to get 
>> figured Characteristics cheaper. 
> 
>Which gives those characters whose concept does allow a high (not 
>necessarily brick-level) STR a bit of an unfair edge over those whose 
>doesn't, no? 
 
   But how much? 
   If STR is so horribly underpriced, then why isn't Obsidian so much more 
powerful than the rest of the beginning-level Champions?  He actually seems 
about on par with Seeker, Quantum, Defender, Solitaire, and even Jaguar 
(who not only doesn't even have a point-saving structure at all, but has a 
Multiform soaking up more points to boot). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:33:36 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 06:14 AM 1/6/98 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>On Monday, January 05, 1998 9:43 PM, Opal wrote: 
> 
> 
>> f > Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
>> f > In real life, people who are hit with .50 cal machine gun rounds 
>(3d6) 
>> f > in the chest die as a rule.  
 
Just as a side note to this thread, The Geneva Convention made the fireing 
of a 50 cal at a human target a "War Crime" as a 50 cal is considered a 
Vehicular weapon not anti-personnel.  That means that a hit on a human from 
50 cal is considered lethal all the time. 
 
Most of the time a shoulder hit from a 50 cal would leave the victim with 
out an arm and usually with out life. 
 
Alas the Hero System isn't perfect... 
 
Michael 
 
Rising Force Publications 
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine... 
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
"You have never lived until you have almost died.  
And for those who fight for it, life has a 
flavor the protected never know"  
- anonymous 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 06:37:34 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:30 PM 1/5/98 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>> >Well, yeah, but while costing it at Pi per die would be aesthetically 
>> >pleasing, it might be annoying to calculate. 
>>  
>> I don't consider 3.14159265358979 to be aesthetically pleasing. 
> 
>But 3.14159265358979 is just a crude decimal approximation of the beauty 
>of Pi. 
 
   Personally, I prefer cake.   ;-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 06:42:22 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:20 PM 1/5/98 -0800, Opal wrote: 
> b > From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>  
> b >  
> b >    On that, I think there is a consensus.  
> b >    One thing on which I think I disgree is the oft-stated maxim that  
> b > should be the normal-damage equivalent of HKA.  I think that this  
> b > taking the wrong approach to fixing the problem, and the reason that  
> b > been such a pain in the butt for so long.  What HA should be viewed  
> b > as is the hand-to-hand equivalent of Energy Blast.  Simply start with  
> b > trade Range for STR Adds, allow STR to more than double the attack in  
> b > exchange for not being able to Bounce (believe it or not, this is much  
> b > closer to balanced than one might think), and there you go!  In fact,  
> b > think that this is largely what Opal did with his version of HA, and  
> b > part of why I like it so much.  
>  
>I have to remember to say lotsa nice things about TUSV when it comes  
>out.  :)  
 
   In public.  Preferably a magazine.  Do a review in Dragon or something. 
Tell them all what a wonderful addition it would be for their AD&D game, 
with just a little bit of extra work.   ;-] 
 
>Actually, what I did was to enforce the 'only-up-to-double' HKA-type  
>rule, only when the STR damage was being 'transformed' - ie when the  
>HA had an advantage like AP, or Ranged, or Area Effect, or was Energy  
>or (and I'm surprised no one has objected to this) Stun-only.  
 
   The *effect*, though, at least appears to fit my philosophy that HA is 
the No Range equivalent of EB more than the assumption that HA is the 
Normal Damage equivalent of HKA (a little less now that you've decreased 
the utility of Spreading and a few other things, though I approve of the 
change as a logical and sensible one). 
  
>When the HA is just a plain vanilla, normal physical HA, it adds to  
>STR.  Seemed like the only reasonable way to do it, to me. 
 
   I tend to agree. 
   Another point I think I'd add is something that I think was in TUMA: if 
HA has an Advantage, then the STR added is pro-rated so that the value of 
STR adds to Active Points of HA, and not the actual dice.  Thus 30 STR adds 
4d6 to an AP HA, not 6d6. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: ghost@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 08:49:10 -0600 
From: Bryce Berggren <ghost@softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:38 PM 1/6/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>At 03:38 PM 1/6/98 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>>A DEX of 15 and SPD 3 is a bit low for most superhero games I have been 
>>in.  Usually we shoot for DEX 18 SPD 4 at the low end. 
> 
>   In TUSV, I recommend 15/3 for vehicle operators in a superhero world, 
>given that they tend to dish out as well as absorb more damage.  Low-level 
>agents also tend atoward the 15/3 range.  Otherwise I'm with you, Michael; 
>18/4 is about the lowest one should go for a brick in an average superhero 
>campaign.  (23/5 is average for most types, and 26/6 for martial artists 
>and speedsters, at least in my observation.) 
 
Pity Vox. You see, he started playing Champions under my GMship, and I started 
GMing with the poor, tragic delusion that when the book said "normal human" 
was 10 DEX, 2 SPD, that's actually what they meant. Therefore, bricks in my 
campaign at the low end run around with 7-8 DEX (not a typo), 2 SPD, and make 
up the difference in OCV with combat levels and large chunks of pavement. 
 
I'm sorry, but every time I hear that "18/4" is the MINIMUM a brick should 
have, I keep seeing Ben Grimm doing pirouettes around the poor befuddled 
Green Berets, and then I have to take my pills and lie down for several 
minutes. :-/ 
 
 
H. G. 
 
He beats his fists against the posts 
and still insists he sees the ghosts 
 
X-Originating-IP: [206.88.2.1] 
From: "Todd Hanson" <badtodd@hotmail.com> 
Subject: Re: Autofire Damage Shield 
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 09:16:28 CST 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:43 PM 1/5/98 -0800, Rook wrote: 
>Hello; 
>    I'm trying to simulate the effect of a speedster who does a 
>whirlwind of multiple 
>punches at lightspeed, and anyone who gets too close gets hit by them 
>over and over 
>again. 
> 
>    Just by title, a combination of Autofire and Damage Shield seems to 
>make sense. 
>However Autofire needs an attack roll to figure out the number of hits. 
>Yet Damage 
>Shield uses no attack roll and simply does the damage to the offending 
>victim. 
> 
>    So I considered an Amor Piercing Damage Shield. With the special 
>effect being 
>that AP is being used to simulate hundreds of multiple hits. 
> 
>    Any other takes? Suggestions? 
 
how about a simple 'xd6 EB damage shield' with the special effect being  
'you got too close, so I hit you a bunch of times'. 
 
No reason to make it overly complicated. Just because the special effect  
says you hit him a bunch of times doesnt mean that you have to use  
autofire. 
 
Todd 
 
______________________________________________________ 
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com 
 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:37:07 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Monster Trucks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
 
> Bob, 
>  
> I'd like to see rules for stunt vehicles and monster trucks.  
 
I can see it now: 
 
MONSTER TRUCKS IN TUSV!!!   
 
SUNDAY!!!  SUNDAY!!! SUNDAY!!! 
 
See a monster truck run Seeker into the ground, see Obsidian try and 
Haymaker a monster truck into orbit, see Defnder's new monster truck power 
armor, see Solitaire discover Ego Attacks don't do squat against vehicles! 
 
SUNDAY!!!  SUNDAY!!! SUNDAY!!! 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Double Energy per DC? 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 06 Jan 1998 11:21:12 -0500 
Lines: 31 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "LC" == Len Carpenter <redlion@voicenet.com> writes: 
 
LC> However, I don't understand what Stainless Steel Rat means by 
LC> "imparting energy" into the wall by leaning on it. 
 
I apply a force to the wall, force over time.  A bullet applies a force to 
the wall, force over time.  Assuming I am pressing with my finger, both 
area and the *total* energy implied is the same, but the time is different. 
In the case of the wall, it dissipates the energy outwards, converting it 
to heat, but because the transfer is so slow it appears that nothing 
happens.  In the case of the bullet, the energy transfer occours so quickly 
that the wall cannot dissipate all the energy as heat; most of it remains 
kinetic and bits of wall "explode" outwards. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNLJZ9Z6VRH7BJMxHAQFSIwP+Jp6b5rZr8VZYSiBovRTiC7RNypGT1mJi 
tjw7eFWDpKTv/3Cesw9t+JRaXLNszMuDCwpUKtt6rvaNgouoH/CLxCuHuaSY/3Xj 
5y5+HQqzuQoNxhkRM6HdKy5jAkspZ+5io4OzIRNF7HYaJ2N+F3x+Rd2ywJ+1pCeo 
h3+4VIiQLkQ= 
=XdIt 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 06 Jan 1998 11:25:08 -0500 
Lines: 28 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "TB" == Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> writes: 
 
TB> In other words, virtually every character in existence (bearing in mind 
TB> that you actually only need to buy up all of those stats except one). 
 
In fact, go take a look at Champions II, in which "Ray Greer" goes on at 
length on the benefits of buying up one's Strength for exactly this reason. 
To paraphrase, if you buy up more than two of your PD, REC, END or STUN, 
you should buy more Strength instead.  It will cost you less, and you will 
get a higher total on the figured characteristics you did not buy up. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core, 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should 
                                    \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 06 Jan 1998 11:26:15 -0500 
Lines: 27 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "CG" == Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> writes: 
 
>> Aside from the fact that the math says otherwise, two broken mechanics 
>> do not fix anything. 
 
CG> So anything that allows a character to save points is broken? 
 
No, anything that allows a character to get more than he pays for is 
broken. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core, 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should 
                                    \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 06 Jan 1998 11:27:16 -0500 
Lines: 27 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "O" == Opal <Opal@october.com> writes: 
 
O> Hmm... STR 'saves you points'  
 
Strength gives you more points than you spend on Strength. 
 
O> Frameworks 'save you points'  
 
Frameworks reward a good character concept. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 08:55:54 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
Subject: AutoFire Martial Arts? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Hello; 
    Back to my speedster again. 
 
Is Autofire on Martial arts legal? 
 
    I'm trying to do a DC style Speedster on a less than DC point level 
(ie, under 3 million points 
please :) ) So the concept seemed logical and I applied it to the basic 
strike and offensive strike. 
I considered getting area effect selective on the legsweep, but haven't 
gone that way yet. 
 
    However, as a long time GM myself, the idea of putting an advantage 
or limitation on a skill seems 
dubious at best. 
 
    Any other opinions? 
 
    One other thing, my character has to say a special mathimatical 
equation to activate her connection to 
the mysterious "Speed Force". I got that as 'Incantations" on Instant 
Change (All other powers and 
even some stats having Only in Hero ID). 
    Considering the games advice on Incantations, would this one be 
better off with 'visible' on Instant Change? Or no limitation at all. 
    According to the rules on Special Effects, Instant Change is 
normally invisible effects... Which I guess 
just means you normally can't tell how or why it happens. (Page 52, 56) 
 
 
-- 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing 
 
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at 
 
some point. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:02:10 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Reply-To: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Subject: Re: Autofire Damage Shield 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Todd Hanson wrote: 
 
> >    Just by title, a combination of Autofire and Damage Shield seems to 
> >make sense. 
> >However Autofire needs an attack roll to figure out the number of hits. 
> >Yet Damage 
> >Shield uses no attack roll and simply does the damage to the offending 
> >victim. 
> >    So I considered an Amor Piercing Damage Shield. With the special 
> >effect being 
> >that AP is being used to simulate hundreds of multiple hits. 
> how about a simple 'xd6 EB damage shield' with the special effect being  
> 'you got too close, so I hit you a bunch of times'. 
> No reason to make it overly complicated. Just because the special effect  
> says you hit him a bunch of times doesnt mean that you have to use  
> autofire. 
 
Although, I like this power concept and I think autofire is the way to go.  
It simulates some of the expected mechanics well... for example against 
defenses, it's a lot more like getting hit multiple times. If someone can 
shrug off one of my punches, he can shrug them all off. If my punches only 
bruise someone a little, then they'll get a lot of little bruises. Also, 
this whirlwind sounds like it's pretty END-draining, and autofire 
simulates that well too. Also, the character can control his spinning 
speed (and END expenditure) by setting the number of "shots" fired. 
 
However, damage shield may not be the best choice, although it's not bad.  
I liked the earlier idea of a continuous area-effect radius no-range 
attack, limited to one-hex radius. With damage shield, the character pays 
END but not actions to keep up the attack, plus someone actually has to 
touch him (or he has to grab someone) for the punches to hit. The CAER 
approach is more expensive, but more versatile and I think simulates a few 
more things better. With this model the character spins around really fast 
making punches and moves in a tight circle within each hex, thus reaching 
out to adjacent hexes for the attack. As per the special effects 
requirements, if they get too close, their DCV won't matter. Now I forget, 
does the character spend a half-phase action each phase to keep up a 
continuous attack? If so, that makes sense, because it's like he's putting 
half of his movement into spinning and can only make half-moves. But this 
shouldn't be a problem for our speedster. 
 
So are you gonna use HA for the base power? Huh? huh? 
 
From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:17:43 EST 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 98-01-05 23:38:42 EST, tbarrie@ibm.net wrote:  
   
>  It most assuredly is. I can't count the number of times I've had a 
>  character who by conception should have had a 10-ish STR, but in 
>  order to free up enough points to fit in some other things which 
>  fit the concept, I had to take a 13, 15, 18, or even 20 STR. This is 
>  a ridiculous situation. 
 
I found this impossible to imagine until I went into Heromaker and played 
around with some of the BBB sample characters. You're right, with many 
characters cranking up STR while holding the figured characteristics the same 
will save a few points.  
  
>  (The first person who suggests I buy "STR, does not increase physical 
>  strength" will be shot through the head. Friendly warning.:)) 
 
The Long Heresy. Right.  
 
[snip] 
   
>  > Anyway.  If you realy percieve it as a problem, the obvious solution is  
>  > to stop give figured stats for STR (at least it keeps STR at 5 Apts/d6 
>  > like other attack powers) 
>   
>  Yes - the last time the STR issue came up, I agreed that ditching the 
>  idea of figured characteristics is the best solution. They just add 
>  complexity without any corresponding increase in utility, and ditching 
>  them would handle the STR issue more cleanly (if you literally increased 
>  STR's cost, you'd probably need to add a clause stating that its' Active 
>  Cost should be considered equal to its value for some purposes.) 
 
I could go for ditching the idea of figured characteristics in 5th ed. But I'd 
throw in a plea to halve the cost of those characteristics (with the exception 
of Speed).  
 
But if 5th ed. is going to keep figured characteristics, I really don't want 
to see the cost of STR increased. I'd rather try to deal with the brokeness of 
cheap STR (e.g. by playing around with the END costs of using STR) than deal 
with the messiness created by an increased STR cost.  
 
Erol K. Bayburt 
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Autofire Damage Shield 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 06 Jan 1998 12:29:40 -0500 
Lines: 27 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "DPL" == Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> writes: 
 
DPL> Although, I like this power concept and I think autofire is the way to 
DPL> go. 
 
Ugh... Autofire without an attack roll. 
 
Just by a larger base attack, since the desired result is to do more 
damage anyway. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: AutoFire Martial Arts? 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 06 Jan 1998 12:30:16 -0500 
Lines: 26 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "R" == Rook <rook@infinex.com> writes: 
 
R> Is Autofire on Martial arts legal? 
 
No.  You cannot put advantages on martial arts skills. 
 
You can buy powers with similar effects, and put advantages on those, 
however. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:43:24 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Len Carpenter wrote: 
 
> I've experimented with an alternative to the Normal Characteristics Maxima 
> disadvantage for heroic campaigns, to make close-to-the-max stats more rare and 
> above-the-max stats quite costly.  The cost for the primary characteristics up 
> to 15 (or 16, in the case of COM) is left the same.  From 15-20 (or 16-20, in 
> the case of COM), the cost is doubled.  Above 20, the cost is tripled.  Above 
> 25, if the GM permits such exalted characteristics, the cost is quadrupled.  So 
> a knight's impressive 20 STR costs 5+10=15 points, a barbarian's mighty 25 STR 
> 5+10+15=30 points.  A wizard who wants an awe-inspiring 28 INT would have to 
> pay 5+10+15+12=42 points. 
>  
> This mandatory disadvantage used for heroic-level characters only would be 
> worth 10-20 points, depending on how much the GM wants to discourage a 
> character from having too many stats close to their maxima.  The cost of this 
> disadvantage would not be counted against the point maximum for 
> disadvantages--I would do the same for profession package bonuses to encourage 
> their use.  So in a 75+75 campaign and a value of 10 points for this 
> disadvantage, a character might be built on 163 points if he takes one 
> profession package deal.  A further possibility is to limit beginning 
> characters to having no primary stat higher than 18.  Buying above this must be 
> done with experience points--it gives a character something to look forward to. 
 
I like your method. I run and play in a variety of low-powered 
Champions/Hero games, and am familiar with all the graininess (as opposed 
to breakage) of the system when you zoom in on the lower end. I play in a 
campaign where the maximum starting characteristic was 18, and 
furthermore, only 2 characteristics could have such a high rating. My 
character had a DEX of 18 and a PRE of 18, although I talked the GM into 
also allowing a COM of 18. We've been playing for over a year and a half  
and last weekend I got my 20 DEX. I'm so happy! 
 
The point-increase encouragement is also a good idea, especially since you 
offset it with "off-budget" mandatory disads. This makes characters work 
hard for their characteristics. And characteristics are more than just 
mechanics shortcuts, figured characteristic package deals, and skill 
bonuses. They're for straight-up role-playing, too. BTW, some sort of 
doubling/tripling/quadrupling point costs for buying down characteristics 
might be a good idea too. Offhand, I would double anything bought down 
from 10-5, and triple it from 5-0. But such character weaknesses, while 
given a little incentive, must be role-played!  
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: Re: Autofire Damage Shield 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:18:27 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>a combination of Autofire and Damage Shield seems to make sense. 
>However Autofire needs an attack roll to figure out the number of hits. 
 
How about using the amount that they hit you by? That would make some 
interesting combats. The enemy knows that putting too many levels in his 
OCV will get him hit too much, and always tries to just barely hit you. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 98 18:31:41  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Autofire Damage Shield? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 05 Jan 1998 23:43:46 -0800, Rook wrote: 
 
>Hello; 
>    I'm trying to simulate the effect of a speedster who does a 
>whirlwind of multiple 
>punches at lightspeed, and anyone who gets too close gets hit by them 
>over and over 
>again. 
> 
>    Just by title, a combination of Autofire and Damage Shield seems to 
>make sense. 
>However Autofire needs an attack roll to figure out the number of hits. 
>Yet Damage 
>Shield uses no attack roll and simply does the damage to the offending 
>victim. 
> 
>    So I considered an Amor Piercing Damage Shield. With the special 
>effect being 
>that AP is being used to simulate hundreds of multiple hits. 
> 
>    Any other takes? Suggestions? 
 
AOE 1 hex, Selective Attack. You may need Personal Immunity. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 98 18:32:58  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: AutoFire Martial Arts? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 06 Jan 1998 08:55:54 -0800, Rook wrote: 
 
>Hello; 
>    Back to my speedster again. 
> 
>Is Autofire on Martial arts legal? 
> 
>    I'm trying to do a DC style Speedster on a less than DC point level 
>(ie, under 3 million points 
>please :) ) So the concept seemed logical and I applied it to the basic 
>strike and offensive strike. 
>I considered getting area effect selective on the legsweep, but haven't 
>gone that way yet. 
> 
>    However, as a long time GM myself, the idea of putting an advantage 
>or limitation on a skill seems 
>dubious at best. 
> 
>    Any other opinions? 
> 
>    One other thing, my character has to say a special mathimatical 
>equation to activate her connection to 
>the mysterious "Speed Force". I got that as 'Incantations" on Instant 
>Change (All other powers and 
>even some stats having Only in Hero ID). 
>    Considering the games advice on Incantations, would this one be 
>better off with 'visible' on Instant Change? Or no limitation at all. 
>    According to the rules on Special Effects, Instant Change is 
>normally invisible effects... Which I guess 
>just means you normally can't tell how or why it happens. (Page 52, 56) 
 
Try modelling the MA attacks with a Multipower instead. Look up Wild 
Martial Arts in Ninja Hero. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:36:48 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Subject: Episodic Champions Villian Campaign (fwd) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
This is my e-mail advertisement/invitation for a new campaign I'm running 
in Houston (with a twist!). Thought people on the list would be 
interested in seeing it. 
 
---------- Forwarded message ---------- 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:08:35 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Subject: Episodic Champions Villian Campaign 
 
Ever feel an inexplicable urge to do EVIL? 
Bent on world domination since you were left at the altar? 
Seeking power, influence, and opportunity for maniacal laughter? 
Then we've got the organization for you! 
EVIL (EVIL Villian Integration League) seeks upwardly-mobile, ruthless 
super-villians to do organization dirty work. Must not let anything stand 
in the way, including police or superhero do-gooders. Deathtrap building 
experience a plus. Interested call 1-800-555-EVIL or fax resumes to 
1-800-FAX-EVIL. 
... 
 
I think it would be fun to run a Champions villian campaign, where the PCs 
get the be the bad guys. We would play infrequently (once every 2 weeks or 
so, weekday or weekend), so that some of our strapped-for-time bretheren 
can join. Furthermore, since the campaign will be largely episodic, you 
can skip a session if you have to without much worry. 
 
This will be straight-up Champions, no mucking around with rules changes 
or mechanics. You'll be super-villians, in the genre that Hero System does 
its best. Okay maybe a few differences: 
 
1) You know how things always round in the players' favor? Well, now 
you're the bad guys, and things always round *away* from your favor. Sucks 
to have bad karma. 
 
2) The good news is that villians aren't limited by arbitrary standards of 
heroism. Plus, you have thugs and evil organization resources behind you.  
The bad news is that Fate is on the side of Good. That means you're 
working against Fate. Fate is what saved your sorry asses when you played 
heroes and it looked like all was lost. Fate works for Them now. (Although 
I heard sometimes Fate saves a popular villian who couldn't possibly have 
survived...  so long as no hero is looking.)  
 
3) Villians don't get experience points. Sorry. But you do get Villiany 
Points (VP) for acts of evil, treachery, deceit, and all-around good 
villiany. They'll be awarded throughout an adventure, and the amount might 
vary from player to player. Ever wonder why villians set up complex 
deathtraps, explain it to the hero, and then leave to pursue other plans?  
It's worth more Villiany Points, that's why! Even a well-timed greedy 
backstab of your own teammate is worth Villiany Points. Of course, they'll 
be thinking the same thing. 
 
4) Villians have a high Thwartage Rate. So be prepared. Have at least 3 
villians ready for play, in case some get captured and put away. When you 
get Villiany Points, they apply to all your characters. And dying isn't so 
bad, as long as it's an infamous one... it might be worth villiany points 
for your other characters! 
 
5) The good news is... you get a villian bonus! (What you always wanted!)  
The bad news is, you have to take a villian package deal to get it. The 
good news is, the package includes EVIL contacts, resources, access to 
thugs, and everything else a self-respecting super-villian needs! The bad 
news is, it also contains cliche villian compulsive behavior habits. Of 
course, if you're willing to spend the points, you can buy them off.  
Villians with Resistance to Taunting Heroes When It's Probably 
Inappropriate (15 points) have a potent ability. 
 
6) I swear by all that is evil, that we will see a Champions combat run 
smoothly and reasonably quickly! More fun for everyone! (I've really 
immersed myself in Champions rules and rulings lately.) 
 
You'll have 100 base points, 100 potential points from disadvantages (the 
possibilities...), and a 50 point villian bonus. 60 AP power limit, except 
with permission. Please forward this message along to other Champions 
gamers whose e-mail addresses I don't know, and let people without e-mail 
know. This is a chance for some cathartic fun and really getting into the 
role-playing without worrying (too much) about the consequences. Plus, 
you'll get to play a variety of character concepts that you've always 
wanted to explore, but never got the chance. 
 
Give me a beat on the interest level and times people are available to 
play... the setting is ready to go, and I'll have a packet out by the end 
of the week.  
 
Get it? 
 
Got it? 
 
Evil. 
 
 
 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:16:22 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Subject: This STR/HA argument 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I'm not sure I really understand the HA argument. But I found this on the 
newsgroup and wondered if people on the list had seen it. Does this help 
or hurt or has it already been pointed out? 
 
---------- Forwarded message ---------- 
Date: 14 Dec 1997 20:14:12 GMT 
From: Hero Games <herogames@aol.com> 
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.super-heroes 
Subject: Re: Should I buy the NEW Champions RuleBook??? 
 
My official errata for 4th Edition Hero System: Aid should be 10 pts. per 1 d6, 
and cross out Hand Attack as a power. If you want to add extra dice, buy STR 
with a -1/2 Limitation (only for extra dice) or Energy Blast (-1/2, no range). 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games, www.herogames.com 
<Send email with your postal address to herogames@aol.com to get on the Hero 
Plus mailing list; you'll get all the latest Hero news!> 
 
 
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 11:57:23 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Weapons in Heromaker 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
The fantasy Hero disk put out by Hero Plus does contain some 'items' on it. 
I believe they're lists of magic items though. 
 
Haven't made any of my own, as I almost never make gadgeteers. 
(which means I ought to, just to fill out my collection.) 
 
 
Lisa Hartjes wrote: 
 
> Has anyone made up stats for various normal weapons in Heromaker in a .cha 
> file?   I'd rather not have to do it myself if I can avoid it. 
> 
> Lisa Hartjes 
> beren@unforgettable.com 
> Home:  http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/daniken/79 
> "You met these things before.  What did you do?" 
> <said with a grin>"I died." 
> (Alien Resurrection) 
 
 
 
-- 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing 
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at 
some point. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
 
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long) 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Date: 06 Jan 1998 15:06:15 -0500 
Lines: 43 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes: 
 
q> To those who say, 'Str gives you PD, the ability to wield bigger swords 
q> and wear heavier armour, HA, and Stun', well the first doesn't help you 
q> against a sword-thrust or other KA, 
 
It does when you are wearing armor, because that PD will count against the 
Stun damage.  The Strength also allows you to wear heavier armor, thus more 
protection against the Body damage. 
 
q> and the last barely makes a difference. 
 
Two points of Stun can make the difference between consciousness and, well, 
being killed next time your opponent's action phase comes around. 
 
q> The HA effect is not so great as nearly everyone is within 2 DC of each 
q> other, 
 
And it adds to your sword's damage. 
 
q> and the ability to wield that big sword mandates losing the shield, and 
q> what of that wizard who's tossing 3d6+1RKA fireballs? 
 
Why is an FH mage throwing around 50 AP attacks (aside from the fact that 
the GM failed to keep control over his game)? 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
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z3AI36s3IPmAMVt9tlAWppKFBCfsiR4o+3Duk+RtrA/usYT4E4mQxKd8y1W1eQlB 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 15:37:16 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 6 Jan 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> q> The HA effect is not so great as nearly everyone is within 2 DC of each 
> q> other, 
>  
> And it adds to your sword's damage. 
 
Hmmm... I, for one, have never felt any sort of HA can be used to add to 
an HKA.  I doubt most of the people in my group would play it that way 
either.  OTOH, we usually build HAs as weapons (staff, club, etc) or 
combine them with "STR does not add" (-1/2) to build Wild Martial Arts 
Powers. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 15:38:17 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
A DEX of 15 and SPD 3 is a bit low for most superhero games I have been 
in.  Usually we shoot for DEX 18 SPD 4 at the low end. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:02:28 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 6 Jan 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> >> No, anything that allows a character to get more than he pays for is 
> >> broken. 
>  
> JL> So, any CHA like DEX, CON, BODY, etc are all broken? 
>  
> None of these give you more than you pay for.  To wit, you will pay less to 
> increase your Speed by buying more Speed than you will by buying more 
> Dexterity.  Similarly, it will cost fewer points to increase the 
> characteristics figured from Constitution and Body than it will to get the 
> same values by increasing CON and Body. 
 
Actually, CON is as guilty as STR in this regard... with 10 CON (20 pts), 
you get 20 END (10 pts), 2 ED (2 pts), 2 REC (4 pts), and 5 STUN (5 pts), 
a total of 21 pts. CON doesn't get as much attention as STR because it 
doesn't do very much other than provide figured characteristics, whereas 
STR is extremely useful in addition to costing nothing. 
 
As an aside, I'm inclined to think that DEX at an effective cost of 2x 
is underpriced as well, but at least it costs _something_. 
 
 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:17:29 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: My 5th Ed. Wishlist (w/a surprise) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
 
> *       Make Elemental Controls DO something.  The other two frameworks 
>         are based on the concept of multiple powers sharing the same 
>         "pool" of points, a kind of "timeslicing" for points.  EC appears 
>         on the surface to work similiarly, but in practice there's no 
>         restriction on the member slots access to those points -- all the 
>         powers get to use all the "reserve" points at the same time.  At 
>         this point in time, the best fix I could think of is to make the 
>         SFX restriction tighter -- that EC slots don't represent "similar 
>         special effects" but rather =the same effect=, i.e. all the slots 
>         are different facets of a single ability -- and then instate the 
>         "Adjustment Powers can hit the reserve and affect all slots" bit. 
>         I'm open to any other reasonable idea, though. 
 
Well, to some extent an EC does limit you - somebody with multiple Powers 
with the same SFX is less able to take advantage of opponent's 
Vulnerabilities or deal with an opponent who's resistant to a specific 
SFX. But of course the cost savings of EC are a lot larger than this 
fairly meagre drawback would merit. I'm not sure if the Adjustment Power 
idea would be enough to balance it, either (especially since it would 
logically have to include Aid). 
 
> *       Include the martial arts design rules as "core mechanics", which 
>         they most certainly are (after all, they underlie nearly all the 
>         current maneuvers).  They're useful in just about any non-modern 
>         campaign setting, and really shouldn't be broken off into a 
>         supplement. 
 
I'm assuming you meant to say "modern". 
 
> *       Nix "Affects Desolid".  It's an arbitrary, game-mechanic-minded 
>         concept that's neither really necessary (given the current rules 
>         for Desolid) nor appropriate (given the unlikeliness of any 
>         attack's special effect being able to nail ALL conceivable  
>         Desolid special effects). 
 
If they do deside to leave it in, expand it some; Affects Desolid makes 
a lot more sense than Hardened as the Advantage which allows barriers 
to block Teleport or Indirect attacks. 
 
> *       Really, really look hard at the +20 Immune to Mental Powers 
>         element of Desolid and ask yourself if it's appropriate.  I'm not 
>         saying it is or it isn't, just expressing a little doubt -- after 
>         someone groused about it to me earlier this week, I've found 
>         myself unable to think of an SFX which I can say "Huzzah! This is 
>         definitely in need of that construction!" 
 
Well, I assume it was included because in the previous edition Desolid 
always protected you from Mental Powers (unless Limited otherwise, of 
course), and they didn't want to change too much too quickly. 
 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:25:40 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
 
> >I disagree. What we need is a HA at 5/die to complement HKA; players 
> >who don't need the damage-conversion ability of HA could just take  
> >STR, only to deal damage. 
>  
> There IS no damage conversion ability of HA. 
 
An HA which acted as the normal-damage equivalent to HKA would have such 
an ability. 
 
> Characters who "need" to convert STR damage to an /advantage/ should buy 
> that advantage on their STR *and* any extra HA dice; 
 
This would require them to use the Advantage for any strike. Buying 15 
pts gives you the _option_ of using 15 pts of your STR as killing damage, 
but you can still use it for normal damage. Similarly, buying AP HA 
should give you the ability to use an equivalent amount of your STR as 
AP damage while still allowing you to use it normally if you want. 
 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 98 16:27:07 -0500 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 1/6/98 4:59 AM, Vox Ludator! (ludator@mail.softfarm.com) Said: 
 
>IMPACT 
>        * Characteristics (148) 
>        ======================= 
>[80]    STR: 60 
This would take him over many campaigns active point limits, assuming  
that they use those instead of DC limits. 
>[15]    DEX: 15 
>[26]    CON: 23 
>[6]     BOD: 13 
>[5]     INT: 15 
>[2]     EGO: 11 
>[5]     PRE: 15 
>[2]     COM: 14 
>[0]     PD:  12 
>[4]     ED:   9 
>[5]     SPD:  3 
I think this is fine, probably , as you say, slow for most campaigns, but  
I don't like speed 5 agents anyhow. 
>[-4]    REC: 15 
>[2]     END: 50 
>[0]     STN: 55 
> 
>        * Powers (45) 
>        ============= 
>[45]    +15 DEF Armor 
> 
>        * Skills, Talents, & Perks (47) 
>        =============================== 
>[12]    Boxing Style (Jab, Cross, Block) 
>[2]     KS: Boxing 
>[15]    +3 w/HTH Combat 
>[6]     Combat Driving 12-, Computer Programming 12- 
>[6]     Paramedic 12-, Persuasion 12- 
>[4]     AK: Campaign City 11-, PS: Keyboardist 11- 
>[2]     SS: Chemistry 8-, Medicine 8- 
Wow, an effective character with background skills and everything. What  
will they think of next. 
 
 
                                         |  David A. Fair 
        Think Different                  |  SDS International 
                                         |  dfair@sdslink.com 
 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:30:54 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
 
> The "power" you're looking for to measure up to EB and HKA -- a "Hand Energy 
> Blast", if you will -- simply doesn't exist in current HERO mechanics ... 
> and, it probably shouldn't.  Powers, if you recall, are "abilities beyond 
> those of mortal men"; making hand-to-hand attacks are something mortal men 
> have been able to do since the beginning of evolution 
 
Running and Swimming are both "Powers", Vox. 
 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:37:02 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, ErolB1 wrote: 
 
> I could go for ditching the idea of figured characteristics in 5th ed. But I'd 
> throw in a plea to halve the cost of those characteristics (with the exception 
> of Speed).  
 
Hmmm. Don't think that would be a good idea for PD and ED; for 
consistency's sake you'd need to adjust the costs of the other basic 
defense Powers, and they seem okay as they are. REC, END, and STUN are 
harder to gauge; halving their cost might work. (END is currently pretty 
pitiful next to END Reserve as of now.) 
 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:39:00 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 6 Jan 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> TB> In other words, virtually every character in existence (bearing in mind 
> TB> that you actually only need to buy up all of those stats except one). 
>  
> In fact, go take a look at Champions II, in which "Ray Greer" goes on at 
> length on the benefits of buying up one's Strength for exactly this reason. 
 
I thought that was "The Goodman School of Cost-efficiency". 
 
> To paraphrase, if you buy up more than two of your PD, REC, END or STUN, 
> you should buy more Strength instead.  It will cost you less, and you will 
> get a higher total on the figured characteristics you did not buy up. 
 
STR doesn't affect END. In order to be "inefficient", you only need to buy 
up 2 of REC, PD, and STUN. 
 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:54:32 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Autofire Damage Shield? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Rook wrote: 
 
>     I'm trying to simulate the effect of a speedster who does a 
> whirlwind of multiple punches at lightspeed, and anyone who gets too 
> close gets hit by them over and over again. 
> 
>     Just by title, a combination of Autofire and Damage Shield seems to 
> make sense. However Autofire needs an attack roll to figure out the number 
> of hits. Yet Damage Shield uses no attack roll and simply does the damage 
> to the offending victim. 
 
Well, remember that Autofire includes that additional +1 for attacks which 
don't involve a normal attack roll. This means that an Autofire Damage 
Shield is a total +2 Advantage, so if we go with a 60 Active Point Power, 
you're looking at 4D6. 5 4D6 shots won't do any damage at all to most 
characters at the superhero level, so I wouldn't consider this 
over-powered. (OTOH, bear in mind that this attack will totally maim 
normals.) 
 
>     So I considered an Amor Piercing Damage Shield. With the special 
> effect being that AP is being used to simulate hundreds of multiple hits. 
 
IMO, AP is almost exactly the wrong modifier to use. A flurry of small 
attacks, compared to a single large attack of comparable cost, should 
be more effective against lower defense characters and less so against 
high defenses; AP gives the opposite effect. 
 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 18:02:32 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 5 Jan 1998, Opal wrote: 
 
> > there is one:  if you buy up *all* the stats that  
> > STR adds to, then buying more STR will save you points 
>  
>  t> In other words, virtually every character in existence (bearing in mind 
>  t> that you actually only need to buy up all of those  
>  t> stats except one). Look 
>    
> So everyone should be buying down the allowed one figured characteristic? 
 
No, IMO they _shouldn't_ have to bother with figured characteristics at 
all. But they _can_ buy down one, and you can't ignore that fact when  
discussing STR's efficiency. 
 
>  t> character who by conception should have had a 10-ish STR, but in 
>  t> order to free up enough points to fit in some other things which 
>  t> fit the concept, I had to take a 13, 15, 18, or even 20 STR. This is 
>  t> a ridiculous situation. 
 
> I've only come up with that problem once (out of hundreds of characters) 
> - the concept included a 30 REC :). 
 
Once out of every few hundred is way too many. 
 
>  t> Yes - the last time the STR issue came up, I agreed that ditching the 
>  t> idea of figured characteristics is the best solution. They just add 
>  t> complexity without any corresponding increase in utility, and ditching 
>  t> them would handle the STR issue more cleanly (if you  
>    
> Of course, you'd want to dump all the Figured Stats.  And, at that 
> point, probably dump ECs as well, 
 
Dump them or fix them. 
 
> possibly restrict the other two Frameworks. 
 
Why? They're fine... they actually give reduced utility for their reduced 
cost. 
 
> And, to keep characters at a similar power level, increase 
> point totals by 50-100 points 
 
I agree with those who say that this should have been done for 4th, 
actually, to allow for the expanded skill list. 
 
> (actually, you'd probably want to reduce the value of limitations too...  
 
Why? 
 
 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 18:13:54 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Firelynx16 wrote: 
 
>   Sorry, I had thought it went without saying that no matter what's done 
>   to STR's cost, it would still be considered to have an active cost equal 
>   to its point value when considered as an attack power. (Heck, active 
>   point limits aren't even part of the rules per se.) 
>   
>  That's not fair to everyone else who will be limited by Active Cost. 
 
HUH? I thought you were arguing for leaving STR as is... now you're saying 
that treating STR's active cost as being equal to its value (like it is 
now) is unfair to non-bricks? That makes no sense. 
 
> So Bricks get to base theirs on dice, but someone building an attack with few 
> dice, but lots of Advantages has to base theirs on Active Cost?  Not fair at 
> all.  If the Brick gets to base his on dice alone, then you'd also have to 
> allow an Energy Blaster to have a 12d6 EB, One Hex Area Effect, Armor 
> Piercing. 
 
Why on earth would I have to do that? 
 
>   So he should buy up his STUN then, shouldn't he? 
>    
>  That was my point... if he buys up his Stun, then he's going to have to take 
> away points from his already skin and bones Skills/Powers that most true 
> Bricks don't have much in anyway. 
 
He's got the highest movement of any 250-pt character in the section (only 
Icicle comes close), the highest STUN, the highest REC, the highest base 
defenses except Icicle, the highest total defenses (including his hardened 
and lack of weakness), the largest attack (18D6 Haymaker)... seems to me 
he can shave a few points off here or there without becoming below 
average. (Plus, he's got 8-pt Combat Skill Levels, which are just 
completely pointless at DEX's current cost.) 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 14:29:23 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Monster Trucks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:25 AM 1/6/98 -0500, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
>Bob, 
> 
>I'd like to see rules for stunt vehicles and monster trucks. Do you plan 
>to include rules for driving up a ramp and jumping over five cars? How 
>far can my motorcycle jump? How do I aim at the other ramp? What happens 
>to me if I fall? 
 
   I'll make sure that this is included, if not specifically under this 
heading then somewhere where it can be interpreted for it -- clearly and 
consistently, or at least I hope so.   :-] 
 
>How about rules for a monster truck running over / climbing over a 
>normal vehicle and crushing it? What damage is done? I'd suggest using 
>my "weight damage" rules from the Walking Tall section of 
>http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1905/haym15a.html combined with 
>move by. 
 
   I've printed this out, and I'll include and/or adapt what I can.   :-] 
   Thanks! 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 14:38:13 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:38 PM 1/6/98 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>A DEX of 15 and SPD 3 is a bit low for most superhero games I have been 
>in.  Usually we shoot for DEX 18 SPD 4 at the low end. 
 
   In TUSV, I recommend 15/3 for vehicle operators in a superhero world, 
given that they tend to dish out as well as absorb more damage.  Low-level 
agents also tend atoward the 15/3 range.  Otherwise I'm with you, Michael; 
18/4 is about the lowest one should go for a brick in an average superhero 
campaign.  (23/5 is average for most types, and 26/6 for martial artists 
and speedsters, at least in my observation.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 14:47:03 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: AutoFire Martial Arts? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:55 AM 1/6/98 -0800, Rook wrote: 
>Hello; 
>    Back to my speedster again. 
> 
>Is Autofire on Martial arts legal? 
 
   Per TUMA, no.  Buy HA or HKA with Autofire, set to do no more damage 
than the character's usual Martial Arts damage, and preferably one or two 
DCs lower. 
 
>    I'm trying to do a DC style Speedster on a less than DC point level 
>(ie, under 3 million points 
>please :) ) So the concept seemed logical and I applied it to the basic 
>strike and offensive strike. 
>I considered getting area effect selective on the legsweep, but haven't 
>gone that way yet. 
 
   Can't help ya here.  I'd be interested in seeing what others come up 
with, though. 
 
>    However, as a long time GM myself, the idea of putting an advantage 
>or limitation on a skill seems 
>dubious at best. 
> 
>    Any other opinions? 
 
   I tend to agree, at least where Martial Arts are concerned.  Advantages 
and Limitations on Skills can be legitimate, if the special effects are 
sound and the mechanic isn't abused.  (Cyberware from Cyber Hero is a good 
example; it must be one of the few parts of the published work that 
actually was in the credited authors' manuscript.) 
 
>    One other thing, my character has to say a special mathimatical 
>equation to activate her connection to 
>the mysterious "Speed Force". I got that as 'Incantations" on Instant 
>Change (All other powers and 
>even some stats having Only in Hero ID). 
 
   I'll second that idea.  (Who is this -- Joanie Swift?) 
 
>    According to the rules on Special Effects, Instant Change is 
>normally invisible effects... Which I guess 
>just means you normally can't tell how or why it happens. (Page 52, 56) 
 
   For superheroes, I would just say that the change happens so quickly 
that nobody notices that it's the same person.  ("Hey, look, Barry!  It's 
the Flash!...  Uh, Barry?  Now, where did that guy go?") 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 14:49:06 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: AutoFire Martial Arts? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:59 AM 1/6/98 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>At 12:30 PM 1/6/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>No.  You cannot put advantages on martial arts skills. 
>> 
>>You can buy powers with similar effects, and put advantages on those, 
>>however. 
> 
>And, if your GM wishes to allow it, you may buy "naked advantages" on the 
>final effect of a Martial Arts maneuver.  Which is to say, a player with a 
>10 STR character who wanted to make a Martial Strike Maneuver Armor Piercing 
>or Autofire would first run to his GM and beg, then pay 10 points (+1/2 on 
>the final 4d6 Strike, /not/ the 4 pts. of the Maneuver). 
 
   But, of course, this "naked Advantage" could not be put into a Framework 
(I guess because Frameworks are considered to be family establishments). 
 
>This option is detailed in "The Ultimate Martial Artist", and I've seen it 
>used successfully in the "Arcade Kumite" events a friend ran at GenCon. 
 
   While by no means absolute, successful use in practice is a good support 
for any game mechanic. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 15:00:26 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: My 5th Ed. Wishlist (w/a surprise) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:59 AM 1/6/98 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>Since it's the season for soul-baring :], I thought I'd jot down my thoughts 
>on a 5th edition.  I'll put the surprise up front: NOT on this wishlist is 
>any change to the cost of STR (or any other Characteristic). Yes, I know 
>I've argued a lot that the cost of STR is too low.  But cost issues in HERO 
>just aren't important in a publication sense to me -- as someone else 
>pointed out, you could randomly jumble up all the CHAR costs, and the game 
>would still PLAY the same, it just wouldn't account the same. 
 
   That's not what's *really* surprising. 
   What's *really* surprising is that I agree completely with everything 
you had to say on this post. 
   It didn't always look like I would, but you gave enough explanation in 
each case that I ended up saying, "Yes, that's a good idea," in every case. 
   I have never seen a full list of change ideas for the Hero System before 
where I agreed with everything. 
   Now we just have to determine whether our agreement here is a good thing 
or not! 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford) 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 23:00:38 GMT 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 06 Jan 1998 11:26:15 -0500, you wrote: 
 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "CG" == Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> writes: 
> 
>>> Aside from the fact that the math says otherwise, two broken mechanics 
>>> do not fix anything. 
> 
>CG> So anything that allows a character to save points is broken? 
> 
>No, anything that allows a character to get more than he pays for is 
>broken. 
 
So, any CHA like DEX, CON, BODY, etc are all broken? After all, these 
characteristics all allow you to "get more than you pay for" by having 
figured characteristics based on them. 
 
John Lansford 
 
http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/intro.htm 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long) 
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>>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes: 
 
q> The HA effect is not so great as nearly everyone is within 2 DC of each 
q> other, 
 
MS> On 6 Jan 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>> And it adds to your sword's damage. 
 
MS> Hmmm... I, for one, have never felt any sort of HA can be used to add to 
MS> an HKA. 
 
No, but the "HA effect" of Strength certainly can be. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
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>>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes: 
 
MS> A DEX of 15 and SPD 3 is a bit low for most superhero games I have been 
MS> in.  Usually we shoot for DEX 18 SPD 4 at the low end. 
 
Maybe... but not for a true brick with little experience.  Speed 4 is what 
"normal" people that have dedicated their lives to a physical combat art 
may have.  "Impact" does not seem to be that sort of person. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 15:09:37 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Monster Trucks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:37 AM 1/6/98 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
> 
>> Bob, 
>>  
>> I'd like to see rules for stunt vehicles and monster trucks.  
> 
>I can see it now: 
> 
>MONSTER TRUCKS IN TUSV!!!   
> 
>SUNDAY!!!  SUNDAY!!! SUNDAY!!! 
> 
>See a monster truck run Seeker into the ground, see Obsidian try and 
>Haymaker a monster truck into orbit, see Defnder's new monster truck power 
>armor, see Solitaire discover Ego Attacks don't do squat against vehicles! 
> 
>SUNDAY!!!  SUNDAY!!! SUNDAY!!! 
 
   I think that this can quickly get out of hand. 
   In my world, of course, any measure of silliness getting out of hand is 
a good thing. 
   A new idea for a campaign just came to mind, where investigators of the 
supernatural (a la X-Files) hunt down demons who haunt pickups -- they 
really are Monster Trucks!   :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Date: 06 Jan 1998 18:15:40 -0500 
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>>>>> "JL" == John Lansford <johnl@vnet.net> writes: 
 
>> No, anything that allows a character to get more than he pays for is 
>> broken. 
 
JL> So, any CHA like DEX, CON, BODY, etc are all broken? 
 
None of these give you more than you pay for.  To wit, you will pay less to 
increase your Speed by buying more Speed than you will by buying more 
Dexterity.  Similarly, it will cost fewer points to increase the 
characteristics figured from Constitution and Body than it will to get the 
same values by increasing CON and Body. 
 
On the other hand, buying the characteristics figured from Strength costs 
*more* to buy than they would by buying up Strength. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net> 
Subject: Skills Speciallization 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 18:20:16 -0600 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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I think the idea of skill speciallization might allow characters to be 
better defined. If a characater choses Area Knowledge New York City, he 
would have to pay more points than for the same roll with Area Knowledge New 
York City Restraunts. This would allow characters with the sames skills to 
have differences without having to pay a lot for little skills. 
 
 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:50:11 -0800 
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger) 
Subject: Re[2]: TUSV: Monster Trucks 
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part 
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     Bob wrote: 
     <A new idea for a campaign just came to mind, where investigators of  
     the supernatural (a la X-Files) hunt down demons who haunt pickups --  
     they really are Monster Trucks!   :-]> 
      
     Actually, there is a cartoon which features blood-sucking aliens from  
     another world who look exactly like large Vans. 
      
     That's right...Van-Pires.  
      
     Hey, they wrote it, not me.  
      
     (Although I have been toying with the idea of a serial killer's ghost  
     possessing a car...imagine a transformer as designed by H.R. Giger.  
     Should be fun ;) 
      
     Richard 
 
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 16:51:50 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: re-suscribe 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-- Can I be added to the list again? 
 
  Thank you 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 20:09:00 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 6 Jan 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> >>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes: 
>  
> MS> A DEX of 15 and SPD 3 is a bit low for most superhero games I have been 
> MS> in.  Usually we shoot for DEX 18 SPD 4 at the low end. 
>  
> Maybe... but not for a true brick with little experience.  Speed 4 is what 
> "normal" people that have dedicated their lives to a physical combat art 
> may have.  "Impact" does not seem to be that sort of person. 
 
<shrug> then chalk it up to a matter of taste.  Everyone has a slightly 
different view of how to play the game.   
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 20:13:24 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Bryce Berggren wrote: 
 
> Pity Vox. You see, he started playing Champions under my GMship, and I started 
> GMing with the poor, tragic delusion that when the book said "normal human" 
> was 10 DEX, 2 SPD, that's actually what they meant. Therefore, bricks in my 
> campaign at the low end run around with 7-8 DEX (not a typo), 2 SPD, and make 
> up the difference in OCV with combat levels and large chunks of pavement. 
 
Really. 
  
> I'm sorry, but every time I hear that "18/4" is the MINIMUM a brick should 
> have, I keep seeing Ben Grimm doing pirouettes around the poor befuddled 
> Green Berets, and then I have to take my pills and lie down for several 
> minutes. :-/ 
 
Meaning what?  All the games I've been in were horribly over-powered?  I 
see nothing wrong with Ben having a 4 SPD and an 18 DEX.  I mean, he 
usually takes on gobs of goons and comes out okay. 
 
Like I told rat, it is all a matter of taste and setting.   
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 06 Jan 1998 20:27:44 -0500 
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>>>>> "BB" == Bryce Berggren <ghost@softfarm.com> writes: 
 
BB> Pity Vox. You see, he started playing Champions under my GMship, and I 
BB> started GMing with the poor, tragic delusion that when the book said 
BB> "normal human" was 10 DEX, 2 SPD, that's actually what they 
BB> meant. 
 
It is.  You see, 10 DEX, 2 SPD is the average that a normal human will 
have.  DEX, at least, is a bell curve.  Most people are between 8 and 12. 
Speed is more of a function of combat training, which most people do not 
have, so they get the "average" 2. 
 
BB> Therefore, bricks in my campaign at the low end run around with 7-8 DEX 
BB> (not a typo), 2 SPD, and make up the difference in OCV with combat 
BB> levels and large chunks of pavement. 
 
Good for you. 
 
BB> I'm sorry, but every time I hear that "18/4" is the MINIMUM a brick 
BB> should have, I keep seeing Ben Grimm doing pirouettes around the poor 
BB> befuddled Green Berets, and then I have to take my pills and lie down 
BB> for several minutes. :-/ 
 
Any brick that needs an 18/4 does not have sufficiently high defenses for 
the campaign. 
 
By the way, Bruce Lee was an 18/4 human being (or at least he looked it on 
screen). 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Skills Speciallization 
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>>>>> "MS" == Marc Seebass <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net> writes: 
 
MS> I think the idea of skill speciallization might allow characters to be 
MS> better defined. 
 
Um... this is already inherent in the system.  Because of the abstract 
nature of the skill system, it is up to the GM to be fair about what a 
character knows. 
 
MS> If a characater choses Area Knowledge New York City, he would have to 
MS> pay more points than for the same roll with Area Knowledge New York 
MS> City Restraunts. 
 
One problem here is that the first skill is an area knowledge but the 
second is a "general" knowledge skill. 
 
The second is that AK: NYC is not more useful than knowledge of the city's 
eateries.  What is different is the scope.  Both skills at 11- cost the 
same.  But where the former is a general knowledge of the layout of the 
city and where important things are, the latter is a very specific 
knowledge of where good and bad places to eat are located (okay, I'm trying 
to work with the idea of this as an AK :). 
 
What the GM should do -- this is in the BBB, mind -- is weight the 
usefulness of the skill against the task, and either assign a small bonus 
to a specialized skill or provide more information to a successful use of a 
specialized skill than a more general skill would provide. 
 
For example, assuming an 11- skill roll: 
 
AK Boston: a general idea of how to get around the 13 neighborhoods that 
comprise the City of Boston.  You know where the main and secondary roads 
are and the locations of the more obvious landmarks.  You might even know 
that the Pearl is one of the best Chinese restaurants in the area. 
 
AK Downtown Boston: what most call "Boston", a much smaller area.  You get 
all the above, but generally limited to that area.  Additionally, you know 
which side streets are one way only.  You tend to use landmarks instead of 
street names when navigating or giving directions.  You've eaten at the 
Pearl or Kyoto. 
 
AK Chinatown: "You will never find a more wreched hive of scum and 
villany."  Okay, Chinatown is *not* that bad, especially now that the 
Combat Zone no longer exists.  You know every alley, and maybe a few 
rooftops as well.  You know where the best food is, from the Eatery to the 
Pearl. 
 
All three have similar worth to a character, but they all trade off between 
depth and breadth.  That keeps their costs the same. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
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Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 18:05:47 -0800 
From: mcallahan <mcallahan@home.com> 
Reply-To: mcallahan@home.com 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun lotto 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>First of all, a nit-pick. That shouldn't be a .42%, it should be a 
>42%, 100 times greater. 
 
Oops, that was a transcription error 
 
>Second of all, your example is way off. For the initial roll, and for 
>every roll after that one until the character takes an additional -4 
>BODY, the character has a .375, or 38% chance of rolling to stop the 
>bleeding, not counting the paramedic. Thus, if this character actually 
>loses a BODY a Turn automatically, every time the bleeding doesn't 
>stop, he still has a .847 probability, or 85%, that the bleeding will 
>stop before reaching the next level of bleeding. The odds per turn go 
>up from there. Even though he has only two rolls left at this rate 
>before reaching 0 BODY, he still has a good chance of saving himself. 
> 
>He will most likely not bleed to death. This example is broken in both 
>systems. 
> 
>Filksinger 
 
Ok, yes I was ignoring the chance for the bleeding to stop on its own in 
champions (but i was also ignoring the chance for the bleeding to stop 
on it's own in gurps as well). 
In a bizzare turn, the worse you are bleeding the more likely you are to 
stop bleeding. The numbers are: 
1d6 bleeding stops on a 1, 16.66% chance to stop bleeding 
2d6 bleeding stops on a 2-5, 27.77% chance to stop bleeding 
3d6 bleeding stops on a 3-9, 37.5% chance to stop bleeding 
 
This is obviously wrong. 
 
I would suggest for 5th edition the numbers be changed to 
1d6 bleeding stops on a 1 
2d6 bleeding stops on a 2-3 
3d6 bleeding stops on a 3-5 
4d6 bleeding stops on a 4-7 
5d6 bleeding stops on a 5-9 
6d6 bleeding stops on a 6-11 
thus the worse you are hurt the less the chance that the bleeding will 
stop on it's own. 
 
I would also suggest that at the heroic level at least 2 members of any 
party should have paramedic. 
 
While I'm at it I would also suggest that the free familiarity in 
paramedic that you get as an everymas skill fall in the same category as 
the free PS, and AK you get that you really get a free point in it, and 
that you be able to upgrade it to and 11- for 1 more point (2 total), or 
an INT roll for 2 more points (3 total), or at least make the 11- level 
available (for 2 points). 
 
mcallahan@home.com 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes: 
 
MS> Meaning what?  All the games I've been in were horribly over-powered? 
MS> I see nothing wrong with Ben having a 4 SPD and an 18 DEX.  I mean, he 
MS> usually takes on gobs of goons and comes out okay. 
 
He takes them on with durability and sweeping punches -- OCV skill levels 
rather than agility.  An 18 DEX is what girl that has been performing 
gymnastics or ballet for the past 10 years has.  Or, at least, given Hero's 
description and range for what is "normal" this is the case. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 18:23:49 -0800 
From: mcallahan <mcallahan@home.com> 
Reply-To: mcallahan@home.com 
Subject: more thoughts on bleeding 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Earlier (in a post that was subjected: stun lotto but has wandered) 
I sugested that the optional bleeding rules chance to stop bleeding be 
altered. 
 
Upon further thought I also sugest that bleeding should happen every 
minute, but multiple rolls of 6 cause a character to lose multiple body. 
This (along with the much reduced chance for bleeding to stop on it's 
own) would mean that a character who gets no medical attention will 
reliably bleed to death, but it will take long enought that there will 
be time for paramedics to arrive and save the character. 
 
The revised bleeding numbers are 
1d6 bleeding stops on a 1 
2d6 bleeding stops on a 2-3 
3d6 bleeding stops on a 3-5 
4d6 bleeding stops on a 4-7 
5d6 bleeding stops on a 5-9 
6d6 bleeding stops on a 6-11 
 
mcallahan@home.com 
 
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 22:30:46 -0500 
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net 
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Monster Trucks 
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Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    A new idea for a campaign just came to mind, where investigators of the 
> supernatural (a la X-Files) hunt down demons who haunt pickups -- they 
> really are Monster Trucks!   :-] 
 
It's been done. Watch Van-pyres on Saturday morning. 
Kev 
 
 
 
X-Sender: ghost@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 04:08:42 -0600 
From: Bryce Berggren <ghost@softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I love working a graveyard shift job. Send off mail, head to work, come home, 
catch some Z's, wake up, and -bam- that one little message has already advanced 
into a thread you're way behind on. :-/ 
 
At 09:59 AM 1/7/98 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>IMO, the whole DEX/SPD argument seems pointless.  Everything is relative. 
>Is SSR, Vox and Bryce want to use DEX 7-12 Bricks and pretty much stop 
>most humans at 20, let them.  If someone else says that the Thing has a 
>DEX of 20, so be it.  If a DEX 18 SPD 4 brick is 'too fast' I'm sorry. 
>I've never seen an arms race start in any of the games I was in, where DEX 
>& SPD spiraled upwards constantly.  Just about everyone in my local group 
>has the same sort of design idea where Bricks are SPD 4 DEX 18-23, Energy 
>Projectors SPD 4+ and DEX 21+ and martial artists are SPD 5+ DEX 24+. 
> 
>No one has ever seemed to dominate over the other. 
 
First off, I never meant to place my views as canon. Heck, Sean Fannon 
implied in the Mutant File that low DEX/SPD games were unworkable, so what 
do I know? :-/ 
 
I agree with the relativity statement. I know many people feel that the 
DEX/SPD boost is an effective way of creating the feel of "you're just 
a mundane, I've got this costume, therefore I trump you" that seems 
often a part of the genre. I prefer to handle that with CSLs and 
CON/STUN differentials, as I could just never reconcile to the idea that 
competence directly equalled agility/quickness. Now, that hardly means your 
campaign, or Fannon's or Allston's or Bill Tracy's or Quentin Tarantino's 
campaign is a disaster because they don't see things the same way I do (OK, 
so Tarantino's campaign would probably be a disaster, what with it taking  
him 3 months just to get the right soundtrack for the gaming session and  
all, but I digress :) :) ). 
  
>What I don't like is the somewhat arrogant attitude some people have on 
>this list about such things.  It's not like we're arguing about the 
>validity of SPDs of 13+ or the usefulness of a 50 DEX.  It's like all the 
>heat Sam Bell takes for his adaptions.  If it works for you so be, just 
>accept that everyone has their own view of what's right. 
 
People take arrogant attitudes on everything. (If you're not low on 
thermal underwear, check back in on that STR/HA thing). I've got this 
theory ... that everybody on the HERO list has a theory. No, wait, that 
was a different one. :) Seriously, I think HERO's greater complexity 
and completeness calls forth a different sort of gamer than the kind of 
person who worships, say, Senzar ... and that one of the side effects of 
this is that you've got an AWFUL lot of dogma, that whether it's the case 
or not /believes/ it's been exhaustively researched. 
 
>Finally, though, I will admit to looking through "Classic Enemies" and 
>seeing a _lot_ of DEX/SPD numbers that made me scratch my head.  Thunder & 
>Lighting stand out as some of the worst.  Where in their orgins do we see 
>an explination for DEXs of 20+ and a SPD of 5?  And don't even talk about 
>Eurostar (average DEX is... what?  29, 30?  Low of 20, high of 35). 
>Actually, there are a lot of things in CE that I have to wonder about... 
>And yes, when adapting many published characters to my own games I usually 
>dropped the DEX & SPD down a notch or two (and it usually didn't affect 
>the usefulness of the character at all). 
 
Speaking as somehow who has complete rewrites of every published character 
he has access to, simply because of the vast difference between DEX/SPD/DEF 
in the apparent default campaign and my own, I agree completely. :) The worst 
in CE, actually, was probably Rainbow Archer's 35 DEX for a normal human. 
 
Part of the problem, as pointed up glaringly by Eurostar, was that CE seemed 
to be written with the idea that the best way to show that a character was 
truly powerful and dangerous was to jack up the DEXes and SPDs to make sure 
they'd always outgun the PCs. I'd have preferred they'd fleshed them out 
laterally instead. 
  
 
H. G. 
 
He beats his fists against the posts 
and still insists he sees the ghosts 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 03:53:55 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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On Tuesday, January 06, 1998 2:29 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "JL" == John Lansford <johnl@vnet.net> writes: 
> 
>>> No, anything that allows a character to get more than he pays for 
is 
>>> broken. 
> 
>JL> So, any CHA like DEX, CON, BODY, etc are all broken? 
> 
>None of these give you more than you pay for.  To wit, you will pay 
less to 
>increase your Speed by buying more Speed than you will by buying more 
>Dexterity.  Similarly, it will cost fewer points to increase the 
>characteristics figured from Constitution and Body than it will to 
get the 
>same values by increasing CON and Body. 
> 
>On the other hand, buying the characteristics figured from Strength 
costs 
>*more* to buy than they would by buying up Strength. 
 
 
In limited cases, involving certain breakpoints, this is true. It 
obviously isn't true always, or else everyone who wanted all of those 
characteristics high would simply buy STR up to the maximum of the 
campaign. 
 
I noted that your assumption assumes that _only_ characteristics count 
in this cost comparison. Thus, if a characteristic gives you the 
abilities of a power or skill level, those saved points don't count. 
 
I also noted that you claim that your objection is that STR gets more 
in Figured CHA's than its value (true in limited cases). Very well. I 
take it then that if STR were rewritten to give you 9 pts in figured 
characteristics for every 10 you spend on STR, that this would be 
acceptable. 
 
If not, please show me 1) how many points saved by buying Base rather 
than Figured is acceptable, and 2) please show me why points 
effectively gained in skill levels and powers don't count as 'points' 
in determining if you get more than you pay for. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 04:00:50 -0800 
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On Tuesday, January 06, 1998 5:10 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
>By the way, Bruce Lee was an 18/4 human being (or at least he looked 
it on 
>screen). 
> 
 
 
In real life, Bruce Lee was so fast that he slowed down for the 
camera, so that everyone could get a good look at what he did. His 
bodyguard used to talk about how martial artists on the streets of 
Hong Kong would take up a "challenge" stance every day, everywhere he 
went. If the guy looked good, Lee would excuse himself, walk over to 
the guy, take him down, and continue with the conversation. According 
to the bodyguard, it took about three seconds, tops, for the whole 
thing. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 06:12:49 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 08:49 AM 1/6/98 -0600, Bryce Berggren wrote: 
>At 02:38 PM 1/6/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>At 03:38 PM 1/6/98 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>>>A DEX of 15 and SPD 3 is a bit low for most superhero games I have been 
>>>in.  Usually we shoot for DEX 18 SPD 4 at the low end. 
>> 
>>   In TUSV, I recommend 15/3 for vehicle operators in a superhero world, 
>>given that they tend to dish out as well as absorb more damage.  Low-level 
>>agents also tend atoward the 15/3 range.  Otherwise I'm with you, Michael; 
>>18/4 is about the lowest one should go for a brick in an average superhero 
>>campaign.  (23/5 is average for most types, and 26/6 for martial artists 
>>and speedsters, at least in my observation.) 
> 
>Pity Vox. You see, he started playing Champions under my GMship, and I 
started 
>GMing with the poor, tragic delusion that when the book said "normal human" 
>was 10 DEX, 2 SPD, that's actually what they meant. Therefore, bricks in my 
>campaign at the low end run around with 7-8 DEX (not a typo), 2 SPD, and make 
>up the difference in OCV with combat levels and large chunks of pavement. 
> 
>I'm sorry, but every time I hear that "18/4" is the MINIMUM a brick should 
>have, I keep seeing Ben Grimm doing pirouettes around the poor befuddled 
>Green Berets, and then I have to take my pills and lie down for several 
>minutes. :-/ 
 
   Actually, Bryce, I'm rather with you for the purposes of logic; but 
Champions history is what it is, and it's too late to change that now. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 06:17:20 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 45 
 
At 08:27 PM 1/6/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>BB> I'm sorry, but every time I hear that "18/4" is the MINIMUM a brick 
>BB> should have, I keep seeing Ben Grimm doing pirouettes around the poor 
>BB> befuddled Green Berets, and then I have to take my pills and lie down 
>BB> for several minutes. :-/ 
> 
>Any brick that needs an 18/4 does not have sufficiently high defenses for 
>the campaign. 
 
   Depends on GM's taste, really. 
 
>By the way, Bruce Lee was an 18/4 human being (or at least he looked it on 
>screen). 
 
   I'd call him more like 23/6. 
   I saw him on the Mike Douglas Show when he was first bringing movies to 
the United States, shortly before the Green Hornet.  After a clip of some 
martial arts fighting where he held off a ring of about 12 guys, Mike asked 
him if he was sped up for the camera; Bruce said that the producers usually 
had to slow him down to make it look realistic. 
   Just a minor anecdote.... 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 06:24:03 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 52 
 
At 06:15 PM 1/6/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "JL" == John Lansford <johnl@vnet.net> writes: 
> 
>>> No, anything that allows a character to get more than he pays for is 
>>> broken. 
> 
>JL> So, any CHA like DEX, CON, BODY, etc are all broken? 
> 
>None of these give you more than you pay for.  To wit, you will pay less to 
>increase your Speed by buying more Speed than you will by buying more 
>Dexterity.  Similarly, it will cost fewer points to increase the 
>characteristics figured from Constitution and Body than it will to get the 
>same values by increasing CON and Body. 
> 
>On the other hand, buying the characteristics figured from Strength costs 
>*more* to buy than they would by buying up Strength. 
 
   There's more to DEX than just the SPD bonuses.  There's Lightning 
Reflexes, OCV, DCV, and Skill Levels with DEX-based Skills, just for 
starters. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 06:42:19 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: My 5th Ed. Wishlist (w/a surprise) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 05:17 PM 1/6/98 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
> 
>> *       Make Elemental Controls DO something.  The other two frameworks 
>>         are based on the concept of multiple powers sharing the same 
>>         "pool" of points, a kind of "timeslicing" for points.  EC appears 
>>         on the surface to work similiarly, but in practice there's no 
>>         restriction on the member slots access to those points -- all the 
>>         powers get to use all the "reserve" points at the same time.  At 
>>         this point in time, the best fix I could think of is to make the 
>>         SFX restriction tighter -- that EC slots don't represent "similar 
>>         special effects" but rather =the same effect=, i.e. all the slots 
>>         are different facets of a single ability -- and then instate the 
>>         "Adjustment Powers can hit the reserve and affect all slots" bit. 
>>         I'm open to any other reasonable idea, though. 
> 
>Well, to some extent an EC does limit you - somebody with multiple Powers 
>with the same SFX is less able to take advantage of opponent's 
>Vulnerabilities or deal with an opponent who's resistant to a specific 
>SFX. But of course the cost savings of EC are a lot larger than this 
>fairly meagre drawback would merit. I'm not sure if the Adjustment Power 
>idea would be enough to balance it, either (especially since it would 
>logically have to include Aid). 
 
   Have you seen my suggestion for handling Adjustment Powers versus Powers 
in an Elemental Control?  On that system, the only Aid that would be 
affected by this would be an Aid that was restoring points that have 
already been Drained. 
 
>> *       Nix "Affects Desolid".  It's an arbitrary, game-mechanic-minded 
>>         concept that's neither really necessary (given the current rules 
>>         for Desolid) nor appropriate (given the unlikeliness of any 
>>         attack's special effect being able to nail ALL conceivable  
>>         Desolid special effects). 
> 
>If they do deside to leave it in, expand it some; Affects Desolid makes 
>a lot more sense than Hardened as the Advantage which allows barriers 
>to block Teleport or Indirect attacks. 
 
   I'd just include Affects Teleport as a new Advantage (and have it affect 
most applications of Indirect as well). 
 
>> *       Really, really look hard at the +20 Immune to Mental Powers 
>>         element of Desolid and ask yourself if it's appropriate.  I'm not 
>>         saying it is or it isn't, just expressing a little doubt -- after 
>>         someone groused about it to me earlier this week, I've found 
>>         myself unable to think of an SFX which I can say "Huzzah! This is 
>>         definitely in need of that construction!" 
> 
>Well, I assume it was included because in the previous edition Desolid 
>always protected you from Mental Powers (unless Limited otherwise, of 
>course), and they didn't want to change too much too quickly. 
 
   I personally can't think of an SFX (other than Steve Long's suggestion 
in TUM) where Desolid vs Mental Powers makes sense. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 08:46:07 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:20 PM 1/6/98 -0800, mcallahan wrote: 
>>IMPACT 
>>        * Characteristics (148) 
>>        ======================= 
>>[80]    STR: 60 
>If Str is 2pts then shouldn't this be [100] (or str 50, but all the 
>figureds seem to be calculated from 60str) 
 
Ack.  My bad -- this is what happens when you scribble notes off the top of 
your head and then post them. Somewhere in the middle of character 
generation, I got muddled between buying a 50 and 60 STR.  
 
>>[12]    Boxing Style (Jab, Cross, Block) 
>>[2]     KS: Boxing 
>>[15]    +3 w/HTH Combat 
>Ah, levels, the great equalizer, with the jab, and the levels on ocv you 
>have an ocv of 10, of course your dcv is 6 (stay away from games using 
>the hit by half crit rules) or you could have a 7ocv and a 9 dvc, not 
>bad, but I belive this is also a little low (just what is the average 
>OCV and DCV these days, this is a serious question, what are the average 
>cvs out there?). 
>The cross gives you a 14d6 strike which violates many games DC limits 
 
Yes, but if you lower the STR to its proper value of 50, you no longer 
violate that limit. :] 
 
> 
>>[6]     Combat Driving 12-, Computer Programming 12- 
>>[6]     Paramedic 12-, Persuasion 12- 
>>[4]     AK: Campaign City 11-, PS: Keyboardist 11- 
>>[2]     SS: Chemistry 8-, Medicine 8- 
>> 
>>        * Disadvantages (140) 
>If you up the disads to 150 points then you only need to shave 10 points 
>off to balance the character, which seems to be the point, if you raise 
>the cost of str then bricks will have to scrimp some place else, in this 
>case dex and spd. 
 
Which would fit the genre.  That's part of the reason why we call them 
"bricks".  As has been pointed out before, when the big bruisers are pushing 
the stated maximum for human agility, it waters down the meaning of the stat. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 08:46:10 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: My 5th Ed. Wishlist (w/a surprise) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:17 PM 1/6/98 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>> *       Include the martial arts design rules as "core mechanics", which 
>>         they most certainly are (after all, they underlie nearly all the 
>>         current maneuvers).  They're useful in just about any non-modern 
>>         campaign setting, and really shouldn't be broken off into a 
>>         supplement. 
> 
>I'm assuming you meant to say "modern". 
 
Uh, no, I meant non-modern.  In a "real world, 20th century campaign, I can 
get away with saying "Ok, I'll just use the prewritten martial arts styles". 
But if I'm making a fantasy campaign or a 30th century space opera game, 
then chances are karate and kung fu won't fit the mix -- I'll want to create 
new martial arts styles to match the campaign setting. 
 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 08:46:12 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:04 AM 1/7/98 -0600, bobby farris wrote: 
>	Okay, I am going to step into this one. The purpose of an Elemental 
>Control(EC) is to award players that come up with a good character idea. 
>It is for players that come up with powers grouped around a SFX.  
>	It is to give players that come up with a consistent idea and 
>background a reward.  
 
I do not accept the notion that a character *deserves* a reward merely 
because the SFX of his powers all match.  The Human Torch is not 
automatically a concept preferable to Batman, Iron Man, or Green Lantern. 
 
> Note that this means the GM has the right to deny a player the use of 
> the EC if the GM feels that player is just using it as a point crock  
> as you put it. 
 
Since EC has no mechanical effect, it's always just used as a point crock. 
It's merely a point crock which many people feel is forgivable. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 08:46:15 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:52 PM 1/7/98 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote: 
>Stephen McGinness wrote:  
>> I think the main thing that convinced me that the cost isn't really 
>> broken was the one about whether we saw a rush for brick type  
>> characters in the games we play. I certainly don't. In fact if there  
>> is preponderance of anything it tends to be martial artist type 
>> characters, perhaps there is something broken there!!? :-) 
>  
>Yeah, but how strong are the martial artists ?  15, 18, 20 Strength ? 
>Do their character conceptions really justify them being that strong ? 
 
Right on the money.  The effect of cheap strength to look for is not "is 
everyone playing bricks" but "how many *non-bricks* have higher than 
expected STR"? (Say, like Seeker, Quantum, Cheshire Cat, and El Muerto Obscuro). 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 06:47:30 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: NOT Re:The  STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 49 
 
At 07:09 AM 1/7/98 +0100, Roger A. Wesson, Jr. wrote: 
>  I am putting together a supervillain, well maybe he's just misunderstood 
:^p 
>tenatively named Minotaur.  Now in keeping with this concept I want him 
>to be able to a-Maze people. 
> 
>  He will be able to entrance people into believing that they are lost in 
a maze 
>and that they must find their way out.   
>  I was thinking along the lines of: 
> 
>     xd6 Entangle, AoE radius, No Range, INT attacks do BODY to Entangle 
> 
>  By INT attacks, I mean to use INT in the same manner STR is currently 
>used to damage Entangles. 
> 
>  I was wondering how to handle the mental delusion of being in a maze. 
>Is it just SFX, a linked Mental Illusion, etc?  All comments welcome. 
> 
>  In case you were wondering, I am still debating on giving the Entangle 
>Personal Immunity, or buying INT, Only to Escape 'Maze' 
 
   From what I can tell, what you're after could best be done with a big 
Mental Illusions, Limited to "Only To Create a Maze" (and with other 
appropriate Modifiers as well).  Never mind the Mental Entangle; with a 
sufficiently high Roll, the target stands stock-still, not interacting with 
his real environment. 
   The Personal Immunity is unnecessary in this case; Minotaur would be 
able to escape simply by turning the Mental Illusion off. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 06:54:34 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
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At 10:44 PM 1/6/98 -0800, Opal wrote: 
> > From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>  
> > At 10:00 PM 1/5/98 -0800, Opal wrote:  
> > >as well as it could.  Seems like a very unusual circumstance to me...  
> > >but then I've been playing so long that min/maxing is a involuntary  
> > >reflex. :) 
> 
> >  
> > Good, good.  The first step to overcoming a personal flaw is admitting  
> > that  
> > you have the problem. :^]  
> > --  
>  
>Hi, my name is Opal, I'm a tweaked-out Champions character,  
>I admit this freely...  
 
   [All in unison] Hi, Opal... 
 
>I have not one, but two Elemental Controls,  
>  
>One of them has a Life Support slot <siff>,  
>  
>Both include Absorbtion... that goes to my defenses,  
>  
>AND, I have a VPP...  
>  
>I have a 30 STR, and my CON & INT are bought to break-points,  
>  
>I didn't buy up any figured characteristics that my STR adds  
>to except PD  (but, at least I didn't buy one down).  
>  
>But, I still have some dignity - I never bought my DEX up to  
>that seductive 23 break-point.  
>  
>Thank You.... 
 
   [Sounds of applause] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 06:56:19 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
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At 10:29 PM 1/6/98 -0800, Opal wrote: 
> > There IS no damage conversion ability of HA.  HA does the exact same  
> > damage  
> > as STR.  STR can, for all intents and purposes, be considered to  
> > "contain"  
> > +1d6 HA per 5 points.  
> >  
>  
>Exactly why we need a good 5pt HA.  :)  
 
   With abilities that STR doesn't have (the problem with earlier versions). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:59:24 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
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On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
 
> At 03:38 PM 1/6/98 -0500, you wrote: 
> >A DEX of 15 and SPD 3 is a bit low for most superhero games I have been 
> >in.  Usually we shoot for DEX 18 SPD 4 at the low end. 
>  
>  
> Why?  A brick that is half again as fast as a normal and twice as 
> dextrous is not good enough for you? 
 
Why don't you read what I wrote before you start getting nasty.  I said 
that is was low for the games I had been in.  I didn't say it was wrong, 
inferior or improperly built. 
 
IMO, the whole DEX/SPD argument seems pointless.  Everything is relative. 
Is SSR, Vox and Bryce want to use DEX 7-12 Bricks and pretty much stop 
most humans at 20, let them.  If someone else says that the Thing has a 
DEX of 20, so be it.  If a DEX 18 SPD 4 brick is 'too fast' I'm sorry. 
I've never seen an arms race start in any of the games I was in, where DEX 
& SPD spiraled upwards constantly.  Just about everyone in my local group 
has the same sort of design idea where Bricks are SPD 4 DEX 18-23, Energy 
Projectors SPD 4+ and DEX 21+ and martial artists are SPD 5+ DEX 24+. 
 
No one has ever seemed to dominate over the other. 
 
As to super hero characteristics vs normal humans, it become very 
relative.  If the GM decides that everyone is SPD 2 unless you're a 
trained fighter(ie. SPD 3) and SPD 4 is for experienced martial artists; 
and SPD 5+ is only for true superhuman speedsters then yes, people are 
going to have low DEX and SPD and get by on Levels and DEF. 
 
OTOH, if I'm in a more free wheeling game then your are going to see 
'fast' bricks and superhumanly quick martial artists.  It's the nature of 
the game. 
 
What I don't like is the somewhat arrogant attitude some people have on 
this list about such things.  It's not like we're arguing about the 
validity of SPDs of 13+ or the usefulness of a 50 DEX.  It's like all the 
heat Sam Bell takes for his adaptions.  If it works for you so be, just 
accept that everyone has their own view of what's right. 
 
Finally, though, I will admit to looking through "Classic Enemies" and 
seeing a _lot_ of DEX/SPD numbers that made me scratch my head.  Thunder & 
Lighting stand out as some of the worst.  Where in their orgins do we see 
an explination for DEXs of 20+ and a SPD of 5?  And don't even talk about 
Eurostar (average DEX is... what?  29, 30?  Low of 20, high of 35). 
Actually, there are a lot of things in CE that I have to wonder about... 
And yes, when adapting many published characters to my own games I usually 
dropped the DEX & SPD down a notch or two (and it usually didn't affect 
the usefulness of the character at all). 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 10:03:20 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
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On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> At 08:27 PM 1/6/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
> >By the way, Bruce Lee was an 18/4 human being (or at least he looked it on 
> >screen). 
>  
>    I'd call him more like 23/6. 
>    I saw him on the Mike Douglas Show when he was first bringing movies to 
> the United States, shortly before the Green Hornet.  After a clip of some 
> martial arts fighting where he held off a ring of about 12 guys, Mike asked 
> him if he was sped up for the camera; Bruce said that the producers usually 
> had to slow him down to make it look realistic. 
>    Just a minor anecdote.... 
 
I have heard a similar story, this time in relation to some of his fight 
scenes on "Enter the Dragon".  His moves were just too fast for the camera 
to fully capture on film. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 10:35:28 EST 
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long) 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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In a message dated 98-01-05 11:15:28 EST, you write: 
 
<< > I got to thinking (dangerous, I know) about what would happen if the cost 
of 
 > Str were to be raised.  Say you make Str cost 2/1... that means that the 
 > team's resident Brick would be limited to a 30 Str in a 60 Active Point 
limit 
 > campaign.   
  
 Actually 40 because you were forgetting the free 10 he gets. 
 This results in a character that can throw an 8d6 punch and lift about 7 tons 
and then  
 he can push his strength (Which bricks often do in comics, in my opinions 
(thats why you  
 see them straining)) and lift up to about 25 tons. >> 
 
That's not correct.  Though the 10 base points are free to the character, they 
still count towards Active Point costs.  Otherwise, in a 60 AP limit game, 
Bricks could have 70Str and could throw around 14d6 punches.  Also, Adjustment 
powers work on the Active Point cost, and they drain all the way to zero, not 
stopping at the base of 10, and beyond zero in some cases, on Characteristics. 
So we're back to the 6d6 punch, equal in dice to the 6d6 NND that would be 
considered 'equal' Active Point wise in the campaign.  Somehow, I don't thing 
being able to do 6d6 vs no defense (most of the time) is equal to doing 6d6 vs 
full defense.   
 
'Lynx 
 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 10:04:42 -0600 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net 
Organization: Redbow Antiques 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
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Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>  
>  There's nothing wrong with "saving points" -- 
> that's what Disadvantages and Power Limitations do, after all.  But the idea behind both is that you take a (pro-rated) gutpunch for the points you get back. 
>  
> Elemental Controls reduce the point cost of an ability without >reducing its utility one iota.  Ergo, it is a "pure point crock".  >Whether or not there are other crocks does not make this right -- the >fact remains that we now have a system where two characters with the >exact same game abilities can have radically different costs.   
 
	Okay, I am going to step into this one. The purpose of an Elemental 
Control(EC) is to award players that come up with a good character idea. 
It is for players that come up with powers grouped around a SFX.  
	It is to give players that come up with a consistent idea and 
background a reward.  
	Note that this means the GM has the right to deny a player the use of 
the EC if the GM feels that player is just using it as a point crock as 
you put it. 
 
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 98 16:39:31 GMT 
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk 
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness) 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
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At 10:04 AM 7/1/98 -0600, redbf@net.ldd wrote: 
>	Okay, I am going to step into this one. The purpose of an Elemental 
>Control(EC) is to award players that come up with a good character idea. 
>It is for players that come up with powers grouped around a SFX.  
>	It is to give players that come up with a consistent idea and 
>background a reward.  
>	Note that this means the GM has the right to deny a player the use of 
>the EC if the GM feels that player is just using it as a point crock as 
>you put it. 
 
You seem to think that the GM is incapable of denying a player the right to  
have superhuman strength when the concept does not warrant its use. As has  
been pointed out strength might be considered a special framework where the  
concept of being extremely strong is accompanied by increased durability and  
stamina (not unreasonable in my eyes). 
 
I was unsure where I stood on this but after the last couple of days I am  
quite happy to see strength remain at 1 point per point and use my own  
judgement when to allow increased strength etc. I can see the need for major  
adjustments in active point costs and everything else if strength costs are  
changed. 
 
I think the main thing that convinced me that the cost isn't really broken  
was the one about whether we saw a rush for brick type characters in the  
games we play. I certainly don't. In fact if there is preponderance of  
anything it tends to be martial artist type characters, perhaps there is  
something broken there!!? :-) 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:39:58 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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On Tuesday, January 06, 1998 5:38 PM, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>>  t> character who by conception should have had a 10-ish STR, but 
in 
>>  t> order to free up enough points to fit in some other things 
which 
>>  t> fit the concept, I had to take a 13, 15, 18, or even 20 STR. 
This is 
>>  t> a ridiculous situation. 
> 
>> I've only come up with that problem once (out of hundreds of 
characters) 
>> - the concept included a 30 REC :). 
> 
>Once out of every few hundred is way too many. 
 
 
Really? Then in my experience, AP, NND, AVLD, Transformation, Mental 
powers, telepathy, multipowers, VPP, and frankly, virtually all powers 
in the game are messed up. They have all caused me trouble at one 
point or another. Certainly once out of every few hundred. 
 
<snip> 
>> possibly restrict the other two Frameworks. 
> 
>Why? They're fine... they actually give reduced utility for their 
reduced 
>cost. 
 
 
Ridiculous. Lets take a quick look at Multipower. 
 
50 Multipower 
5u 10d6 EB 
5u 5d6 Flash 
5u 3d6+1 RKA 
Total cost: 65 
 
25 10d6 EB, cannot be fired with other attacks (-1) 
25 5d6 Flash, cannot be fired with other attacks (-1) 
25 3d6+1 RKA, cannot be fired with other attacks (-1) 
Total cost: 75 
 
So with the ridiculous Limitation value of -1 for not being able to 
fire non-linked attacks together, you still don't come close to the 
cost savings of Multipower. 
 
The reduced utility isn't even fractionally close to equalling the 
reduced cost. 
 
I might point out that once you put enough powers into a multipower to 
come close to simulating the variability of a VPP, so they can be 
compared, the Multipower is a) still more efficient a point crock, and 
b) more expensive than a VPP. 
 
Filksinger 
 
<snip> 
 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 09:20:04 -0800 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
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At 10:04 AM 1/7/98 -0600, bobby farris wrote: 
 
>	Okay, I am going to step into this one. The purpose of an Elemental 
>Control(EC) is to award players that come up with a good character idea. 
>It is for players that come up with powers grouped around a SFX.  
>	It is to give players that come up with a consistent idea and 
>background a reward.  
 
This might have made sense in 1981, when Hero first appeared. The problem 
is that in todays world, it is *expected* that you'll have a consistent 
background and powers -- your character should simply be disallowed if he 
doesn't. 
 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 10:02:09 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Characteristics Max Disadvantage 
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Len Carpenter wrote: 
>  
> An open question to the mailing list:  Has anyone ever experimented 
> with enforcing the Normal Characteristic Maxima disadvantage for all 
> characters in a superhero campaign, regardless of origin?  I can see 
> a GM trying this in a campaign where he wants to enforce a grittier, 
> more street-level feel, or where he wants to better define the 
> boundary between the merely human and the superhuman. 
>  
> This might be a way to deal with the seeming cheapness of high STR 
> for the benefits it provides, along with curtailing the stat 
> inflation of so many characters where every Daredevil or Batman 
> wannabe has a superhuman DEX and a PD that makes Muhammad Ali's look 
> wimpy.  Some changes in power costs may now become essential or at 
> least more strongly warranted for the sake of balance, though, such 
> as a 5-point cost per 1d6 of HtH Attack or 10 points per 1d6 of Aid. 
>  
> Do any other powers seem underpriced with such a change?  How 
> carefully does the GM have to monitor the use of characteristics as 
> powers, especially when placed into a power framework?  Do characters 
> not dependent on high stats gain too great an edge? 
 
   First of all, lemme state that I do NOT believe in nearly any of the 
claims abounding that STR is horribly underpriced (which people kept 
typing in as 'overpriced') or that ECs are meaningless freebie points, 
etc.  I simply stay out of the discussions because nobody is ever going 
to change their minds, and usually things start getting personal (take a 
look at the strings now....) 
 
   Anyway, several years ago, I wanted to run a 'heroic'-level supers 
game, where the PCs were among the first generation of paranormals 
appearingin the world.  I wanted the PCs to have a single or limited set 
of paranormal ability(s), but be otherwise normal, so I set the level at 
100 base + 50 disads, with NCM for free. 
 
   Then I applied NCM to power frameworks as well as CHAR.  This, I 
felt, reflected the feel of a significant trade-off between power and 
flexibility. 
   A character could buy, say, a single EB as high as (s)he wished at 
1:1, but buying a few powers in a MP or EC or VPP required the Active 
cost of the power(s) and pool(s) to be doubled in cost over 20 act. 
before Framework point savings were taken. 
 
   Now - as is my bent - I had and still have no idea how mathematical 
comparisons stack up, whether the syatem was 'fair' or balanced for 
everyone, or anything like that, but All the characters in the game 
certainly seemed generally balanced through play.  I had a brick, an 
un-frameworked flying EBer, a VPP EGOist and a trained normal.  It 
worked out really well for all involved and seemed a good system - at 
least at that point level. 
 
   I also put a kibosh on the DEX/SPD lottery by halving the turn length 
to only 6 phases.  This really had no effect on the dynamics of combat; 
a 4 SPD still acted 4 times a turn.  The only difference was that there 
were more phases shared by different SPD characters, and the 'SPD Scale' 
was percieved to be much lower; a 6 SPD was considered insanely fast, 
acting every phase.  I had about an even mix between 2 and 3 SPDs.  
Which kept the normals competitive, and a concern for the heroes. 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 10:35:52 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: STR Cost (Re: Announ 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Opal wrote: 
 
> Actually, with all the complaining about 4th Ed, I'd like to take 
> a moment to consider all the good changes that have happened since 
> 1st Ed. 
 
   First of all,  THANK YOU for taking a moment to remind folks that 
there ARE many good things in the system.  (Actually, people wouldn't 
fight so passionately over the 'faults' of the system if they didn't 
love the rest of it so much....) 
 
> Lets see.... 
 
   <<....>> 
 
> - END Cost is always 1/10pts, instead of 1/10 for movement and 1/5 
>   for everything else.  (I remember *always* having to buy 1/2 END - 
>   ugh!) 
 
   Hey!  here's where we can help 'balance' STR!  Simply require that 
STR pay 1/5 END instead of 1/10!  This will create a limitation to pay 
for all of STRs 'freebie' points, and will effectively raise STR's basic 
cost by 25% to make it equal in END cost to other powers!  No, really, 
this is GENIUS! 
 
   On another note, I have to admit that I actually liked the idea that 
Reduced END in the old days would just keep halving the cost until less 
than 1/2(thus making it 0).  I have always felt that Endurance was a 
vital difference between Hero and most other systems, and that 0END 
abilities should be well paid for.  I strongly believe in the goodness 
of paying END for your powers.... 
 
> - No more END Batteries!  They were so anoying... 
 
   Technically, they were simply transformed (Major Transformation, 
cumulative) into END reserves. 
  
> - Elemental Controls are a lot easier than 1st Ed... (1st Ed ECs 
>   were confusing...) 
 
   Especially considering that ECs were listed as a POWER rather than a 
Modifier or even Advantage. 
 
> - Extra Limbs:  Centipedes no longer cost 1000pts 
 
  I still think that Xtra limbs sholud have different costs based on 
different levels of usefulness (two extra arms are more useful than a 
single prehensile tail), but 10 points per limb was just a TAD much.  
Though each one did give you +1 OCV in HTH.... 
  
> - Growth & DI - 5pts per level instead of 10 (Godzilla's still 
>   hard to build though) 
 
   Actually, I liked the old ones.  I consider the 4th ed. versions as 
'weak' growth/DI, but primarily use (slightly modified) 3rd ed. Growth 
and DI for 10 points.  I actually like having both versions, since the 
10 point versions actually give much more benefit than the 5 point 
versions, so they are not so much 'fixed' or 'cleaned up' as they were 
outright changed. 
  
> - Max Disads per type instead of halving values of Disads 
>   after the first 2 per type (then quartering...) 
 
   I think that balance-wise, it's 6 of one, half-a-dozen.... but the 
current rule is much cleaner! 
  
> - 75 + 75 Heroic games instead of those awfull half-the-points 
>   Disads from DI & Justice Inc.  (I'd been running 75+75 games 
>   for years, but it was great to see it official) 
 
   Big Yes!  The biggest hurdle to the system's actual Universality was 
varying Disad bonuses for different genres 
  
> - No more Mental Paralysis! 
 
   Now Mind Control, telepathic contact, one command; 'Freeze!' 
 
> Champions was a great game, and it's amazing how much better 
> it is now! 
 
   And the best thing is that Anal Retentive Pack Rats (as opposed to 
Stainless Steel ones) can collect everything to have an evolutionary 
scale of the game's development! 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 10:40:08 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: STR Cost (Re: Announ 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Vox Ludator! wrote: 
 
> >Champions was a great game, and it's amazing how much better 
> >it is now! 
>  
> This would be more accurate to say "The HERO System was a great game, 
> especially its Champions segment, and it's amazing how much better it is 
> now".  Remember, "Champions" is more a genre label than a game rules label 
> (thus, both HERO 4th Edition and Fuzion's The New Millenium are "Champions"). 
 
   Except that actually, Champions was originally a stand-alone 
SuperHero game, and only later branched out to become a universal 
system.  Interestingly, the Hero system has always translated to 
'normal-level' gaming much better than most other 'universal' systems 
translate their 'normal-level' based systems to SuperHero gaming.... 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"Eric Burns\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 98 18:40:28  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
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On Mon, 5 Jan 1998 16:34:24 -0500 (EST), Eric Burns wrote: 
 
>> Anyway, in most Fantasy Hero games (which is my main interest), the 
>> only stat which exceeds 20 with any regularity is INT, because of which 
>> I've been thinking about the relative cost of stats over 20 - mayhap 
>> they should be quadrupled instead of doubled? 
 
>How about for each point above 20, the cost doubles?  INT, for 
>instance, would cost 1 pts per point up untilt 20, 2pts for 21, 
>4pts for 22, etc... 
 
That gets very expensive very rapidly, but I like the idea. Perhaps 
another multiple or doubling every 5 pts? I'd need to number crunch 
this. 
 
Let's see: 
 
2x at 20, 3x at 25, 4x at 30 
 
or 
 
2x at 20, 4x at 25, 6x at 30 
 
INT is a frighteningly useful stat... 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 10:47:07 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
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Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>  
> On Tue, 6 Jan 1998, Bryce Berggren wrote: 
>  
> > Pity Vox. You see, he started playing Champions under my GMship, and I started 
> > GMing with the poor, tragic delusion that when the book said "normal human" 
> > was 10 DEX, 2 SPD, that's actually what they meant. Therefore, bricks in my 
> > campaign at the low end run around with 7-8 DEX (not a typo), 2 SPD, and make 
> > up the difference in OCV with combat levels and large chunks of pavement. 
>  
> Really. 
>  
> > I'm sorry, but every time I hear that "18/4" is the MINIMUM a brick should 
> > have, I keep seeing Ben Grimm doing pirouettes around the poor befuddled 
> > Green Berets, and then I have to take my pills and lie down for several 
> > minutes. :-/ 
>  
> Meaning what?  All the games I've been in were horribly over-powered?  I 
> see nothing wrong with Ben having a 4 SPD and an 18 DEX.  I mean, he 
> usually takes on gobs of goons and comes out okay. 
>  
> Like I told rat, it is all a matter of taste and setting. 
 
   There seem to be besically two schools of thought Re:Dex and SPD.  
Some folks want Normals to be the benchmark to guage relative values for 
heroes, and like to keep values lower.  Others tend to think that the 
very fact of SuperHero-ness puts characters above normals at their 
minimum, and work from there. 
   Admittedly, it can be difficult to be playing a 3 SPD character in a 
combat with 5s and 6es running around. 
 
   Like Micheal told Rat, it is all a matter of taste and setting. 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"Len Carpenter\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 98 18:51:00  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:52:37 -0500, Len Carpenter wrote: 
 
> 
>> On 04 Jan 98 15:46:00 -0800, Opal wrote: 
> 
>>>> However, if you adjust STR cost, then you will balance non-super games 
>>>> while unbalancing super games. Not a big benefit, given that most Hero 
>>>> players still play Champions. 
>>> 
>>> q> I'd like to see some justification of this - the EC given earlier is 
>>> q> not valid as you wouldn't have such an EC in a non-super game. 
>>> q> qts 
>>> 
>>> Well, all the Hero games that dissallow EC sofar, also require 
>>> Characteristic Maxima, which has the effect of increasing STR 
>>> cost... 
> 
>On January 5, 1998, qts replied: 
> 
>> Which book says this? Anyway, an EC is perfect for a character who has 
>> a small number of powers more than one of which can be continuously in 
>> effect - eg a Paladin, or a magic item (qv one of the spellbooks in one 
>> of the HSAs). 
>> 
>> Anyway, in most Fantasy Hero games (which is my main interest), the 
>> only stat which exceeds 20 with any regularity is INT, because of which 
>> I've been thinking about the relative cost of stats over 20 - mayhap 
>> they should be quadrupled instead of doubled? 
>> qts 
>> 
>>Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
> 
> 
>I've experimented with an alternative to the Normal Characteristics Maxima 
>disadvantage for heroic campaigns, to make close-to-the-max stats more rare and 
>above-the-max stats quite costly.  The cost for the primary characteristics up 
>to 15 (or 16, in the case of COM) is left the same.  From 15-20 (or 16-20, in 
>the case of COM), the cost is doubled.  Above 20, the cost is tripled.  Above 
>25, if the GM permits such exalted characteristics, the cost is quadrupled.  So 
>a knight's impressive 20 STR costs 5+10=15 points, a barbarian's mighty 25 STR 
>5+10+15=30 points.  A wizard who wants an awe-inspiring 28 INT would have to 
>pay 5+10+15+12=42 points. 
> 
>This mandatory disadvantage used for heroic-level characters only would be 
>worth 10-20 points, depending on how much the GM wants to discourage a 
>character from having too many stats close to their maxima.  The cost of this 
>disadvantage would not be counted against the point maximum for 
>disadvantages--I would do the same for profession package bonuses to encourage 
>their use.  So in a 75+75 campaign and a value of 10 points for this 
>disadvantage, a character might be built on 163 points if he takes one 
>profession package deal.  A further possibility is to limit beginning 
>characters to having no primary stat higher than 18.  Buying above this must be 
>done with experience points--it gives a character something to look forward to. 
 
If it's a mandatory disad, then it shouldn't be worth any points in 
such a campaign. But the concept sounds very suitable for a low-fantasy 
campaign, except that it does penalise DEX based characters. 
 
Just had a thought: why use *multipliers*? How about *adding* points at 
set intervals? 
 
Say we add 2 pt to the cost of every point over 20? Hmm... 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:52:55 -0600 (CST) 
Subject: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
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Stephen McGinness wrote:  
> From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness) 
>  
> I think the main thing that convinced me that the cost isn't really broken  
> was the one about whether we saw a rush for brick type characters in the  
> games we play. I certainly don't. In fact if there is preponderance of  
> anything it tends to be martial artist type characters, perhaps there is  
> something broken there!!? :-) 
>  
Yeah, but how strong are the martial artists ?  15, 18, 20 Strength ? 
Do their character conceptions really justify them being that strong ? 
 
Curt Hicks  
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 98 19:07:58  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Cost of Str 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I touched on it in another message, but I think it deserves to be made 
explicitly: 
 
Q: How many skills does STR affect? Very few. 
 
Q: How many skills do INT and DEX affect? VERY many. 
 
Put another way, a character who buys up STR gets very little benefit 
to his Skill Rolls. A character who buys up INT, DEX, and PRE gets lots 
of benefits. 
 
The other useless stats from a skill POV are BODY and CON. 
 
Someone who increases the non-skill stats by one each spends 5 points, 
likewise someone who increases the skill stats spends 6 points. The 
former guy will also increase DEX by one for a total of 8 pts 
 
Oh look, we have a dichotomy between combat stats and non-combat stats! 
The former group gets stat benefits, the latter gets skill benefits. Do 
you guys think that this might *just possibly* be deliberate? 
 
<sarcasm added for the humour impaired> 
 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 98 19:18:49  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Fantasy Magic - Congregations (Long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:32:25 -0500, dflacks wrote: 
 
>4) Most of the responses recomended some form of complementory skill roll.  
>This makes sense but I do not like having too many dice rolls.  Lord Dire 
>has kidnapped the Lady Apple of Crumble, and the valiant heroes are tring 
>to rescue her.  Tension is high,  George's character, Gonuts the beserker 
>barbarian has charged Lord Dire while Andrew's character Amous the average 
>archer tries to shoot Lord Dire for some mien damage.<g>  Matt's character 
>Magnus the Magnificent mage cast a fire bolt spell.  While the other 
>characters have only their attack roll, Magnus would roll his familiar's 
>complementary skill roll, his complementry fire magic skill roll, his magic 
>skill roll and his attack roll.  Four rolls for one attack.  By the time he 
>is done, George and Andrew have planned a coordinated stragegy and gone to 
>the kitchen for more munchies.  Repeated instances of such multiple rolls 
>would slow the system to a crawl.  
 
Oh, no! Gonuts will be screaming and roaring - doing a Presence attack 
- while Amous will be doing Find Weakness or some such (and Setting and 
Bracing so he doesn't hit Gonuts), and you only get ONE complementary 
roll. And if you want to speed things up, just make the comp skill roll 
(in secret) once per combat.   
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 98 19:24:41  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Fantasy Magic - Congregations (Long) 
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On Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:32:25 -0500, dflacks wrote: 
 
>Today new topic:  Congergations and familiars. 
> 
>1) In most fantasy literature, wizards do not cooperate to cast spells.  
>The only help a wizard can get is from his familiar.  I plan to have 
>familiars in this campaign.  The most logical method is to give the 
>familiar a magic skill and have them roll a complementry skill roll (but 
>only when in physical contact with the wizard.)  The only problem is this 
>increases the number of rolls per spell again.  If anyone can think of a 
>better way for a familiar to boost the wizards magic skill without 
>requiring an additional dice roll I would love to see it. 
 
Buy an Aid for the familiar, or make all spells have a Limitation: XYZ 
without familiar. 
 
>2) On the other hand, Fantasy literature clerics and cults are often 
>casting complicated rituals that require multiple clerics.  I am allowing 
>clerics to cast spells together. 
> 
>The most powerfull cleric is usually the focus cleric.  The real point cost 
>of the ritual must be able to fit in the focus cleric's power poll.  Each 
>cleric beyond the focus, would add +1 to everyones skill roll.  Each cleric 
>beyond the focus would roll a complementry skill roll and add the bonus to 
>the focus cleric's roll.  If a contributing cleric fails, then a penalty is 
>subtracted from the focus cleric's roll.  One off key singer reduces the 
>effect of the entire choir.  Each cleric beyond the focus would increase 
>the maximum active cost that can cast by the amout of their respective 
>worship rolls.   All the clerics must pay the END cost for the spell.  
>Finally if the ritual has a side effect and the adjusted skill roll fails, 
>all the clerics suffer the side effect. 
 
Again, this is just an Aid (if cast by the juniors) or an AOE Transfer 
from the juniors to the principal (usualy Static OAF Independent Altar) 
 
>I am not to worried about extra rolls here as this sort of combining is not 
>something that is often done during combat.  Most Gamer groups are not made 
>up exclusivly of cleric type characters. 
 
It can be fun. 
 
>There is one other effect I would like to simulate here.  I want have an 
>increase in the focus cleric's skill roll based on the number of Devout 
>Believers he has in his congregation.  Any suggestions? 
 
See Transfer above. 
 
>To cast a powerfull ritual, Sandra the head preistes and her four 
>underpriests all combine their efforts, bosting Sandra's skill roll.  The 
>ritual is an hour long prayer session (extra time, gestures, invocations) 
>and requires a holy focus, the bones of saint cinnoman (OAF.)  The ritual 
>is done before a full church congregation.  If this congregation contains 
>50 devout believers, (and 150 other is various stages of belief and 
>disbelief,) then some bonus would also be applied for the congregation, but 
>what? 
 
If you want to give a non-cost game effect, give a +1 per 5x - ie +1 
for 5, +2 for 25, +3 for 125... 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 15:29:50 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Filksinger wrote: 
 
> Frankly, I am not certain why I am posting this. My opponents have 
> made it quite clear that they have no intention of even admitting that 
> the other side has any points at all. I have been quite willing to 
> admit that my opponents have good arguments, but they are not. I am 
> quite certain that the people who posted things like, "all reasonable 
> arguments agree with me" won't even give it a fair shake. 
 
The fact that no arguments I'd seen to date made any sense to me hardly 
implies that no future ones will. (And what's this "people"? Who else has 
been as abrasive as me?) 
 
> I got into this debate by correcting a deliberately bad example of why 
> STR was superior in cost savings to EC. The response I got was that 
> comparing STR to EC was a bad way to prove balance. Prove an example 
> wrong, and watch your opponent declare the example's basis to be 
> meaningless and invalid.:) 
 
If you group everybody who disagrees with you together conceptually, I 
suppose this could seem contradictory. 
 
> DEX: Buy a 20 DEX for 30 pts. Get +4 levels in DCV, 20 pts. +4 levels 
> in OCV, 20 pts., +2 levels in DEX based skills, 6 pts. +2 levels with 
> DEX rolls, 4 pts (iffy, I know, but I don't know how else to simulate 
> this without buying DEX), Lightning Reflexes (I don't know the cost), 
> +1 SPD, 10 pts. 
 
I don't think it's meaningful to take things which are a part of the 
definition of DEX (that being agility and reaction time), splitting them 
up, and show that they total more than DEX's cost; this is tantamount to 
claiming EB is over-powered because 30 pts of it get you 24 pts of "EB, 
doesn't work in darkness" and 20 pts of "EB, only in darkness". 
 
STR is different; with STR, you get things which aren't directly a part of 
STR's definition (the amount of HTH damage you can do and the amount you 
can lift, carry or throw), and the value of those things is more than the 
cost of the STR itself. In effect, the actual physical strength costs 
nothing. 
 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 14:30:54 -0500 
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net 
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood 
Subject: Re: NOT Re:The  STR & HA Worms 
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Kevin J. McClain wrote: 
 
> Roger A. Wesson, Jr. wrote: 
> 
> >   I am putting together a supervillain, well maybe he's just misunderstood :^p 
> > tenatively named Minotaur.  Now in keeping with this concept I want him 
> > to be able to a-Maze people. 
> > 
> >   He will be able to entrance people into believing that they are lost in a maze 
> > and that they must find their way out. 
> >   I was thinking along the lines of: 
> > 
> >      xd6 Entangle, AoE radius, No Range, INT attacks do BODY to Entangle 
> > 
> >   By INT attacks, I mean to use INT in the same manner STR is currently 
> > used to damage Entangles. 
> > 
> >   I was wondering how to handle the mental delusion of being in a maze. 
> > Is it just SFX, a linked Mental Illusion, etc?  All comments welcome. 
> 
> The whole thing could be handle with Mental illusion alone. Just stipulate that they 
> use an Int roll instead of an Ego roll to break out. The illusion itself separates 
> them from reality (I think it is EGO +20) they could just stand still thinking that 
> they are moving around a maze. Eventually it will degrade to the point where the 
> will get free unless you dont want the illusion to degrade in which case they stand 
> there until they figure it out. 
> 
> Kev 
 
 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
>> On the other hand, buying the characteristics figured from Strength costs 
>> *more* to buy than they would by buying up Strength. 
 
BG>    There's more to DEX than just the SPD bonuses.  There's Lightning 
BG> Reflexes, OCV, DCV, and Skill Levels with DEX-based Skills, just for 
BG> starters. 
 
Be careful: most of these are the primary purpose of Dexterity, not its 
secondary effects. 
 
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Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 15:45:27 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Str Cost 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Firelynx16 wrote: 
 
> On the one hand you're saying Str should cost more, 
 
Actually, I've said before that I think dropping the figured 
characteristics is a cleaner solution than increasing STR. 
 
> but on the other you're saying it's value or worth respective to other 
> attacks should remain unchanged.  And that doesn't make sense. 
 
If STR were _only_ an attack power, it wouldn't make sense. But if you 
insist that buying 60 STR should continue to get you 66 pts worth of 
defenses with it, STR is going to need to be more expensive... 
but the actual physical strength is still really only a 60 AP Power, and 
GMs should take that into account. 
 
As an analogy, if a character has an Energy Blast in an Elemental Control, 
would you add up the total cost of the EC and treat that as the EB's 
Active Cost for purposes of END use and campaign limits? 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
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>>>>> "TM" == Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> writes: 
 
TM> Why is a girl who has been practicing gymnastics for 10 years going to 
TM> have a naturally easy time hitting people and dodging punches? 
 
Because the training that has made her so agile can be easilly "tuned" into 
combat technique. 
 
TM> The easy comparison people make is Dex seems to equal gymnastic 
TM> ability.  It's really kind of a composite stat that covers manual 
TM> dexterity, agility, reaction time and reflexes. 
 
Reaction time is Speed; otherwise I agree. 
 
TM> And just IMHO, if Bruce Lee was only an 18 Dex, then level 20 is beyond 
TM> Human Max, it's mythical/cinematic. 
 
Remember that most of the thugs he fights are 12/2 or 13/2.  At 18/4 he is 
twice as fast and has an natural 2-point CV bonus.  Then factor in his 
superior combat skills, and you see a roughly 6-point CV difference, give 
or take depending on whatever maneuvers he uses.  If he fights defensively 
he can push the DCV difference upwards of 10 points.  And when the rare 
"sergeant" at 15/2 or 13/3 appears, the fight shifts from mass-melee to a 
one-on-one. 
 
20+ is not mythical, just damn hard to achieve.  Lee's focus was not on raw 
speed but versatility and balance.  So I put him at 18, which I think is 
reasonable if the GM keeps a tight leash on his thugs and PCs. 
 
For a martial artist I would tend to reserve DEX 20+ for those who have 
mastered and actively practice Iaijutsu or similar arts. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
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>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
 
F> In real life, Bruce Lee was so fast that he slowed down for the 
F> camera, so that everyone could get a good look at what he did. 
 
It makes good press copy, I will admit.  But *I* can snap my fist out and 
back so fast that it appears a blur to a camera rolling at 16-24fps, and 
unless you are crippled you can do the same. 
 
[...] 
 
F> According to the bodyguard, it took about three seconds, tops, for the 
F> whole thing. 
 
Yup... a real fight will last about that long.  One solid hit to the head 
and down he goes with a concussion.  Doesn't take more than a second to 
connect once or twice. 
 
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From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character (Inflation!) 
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 14:58:45 -0500 (EST) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> >A DEX of 15 and SPD 3 is a bit low for most superhero games I have been 
> >in.  Usually we shoot for DEX 18 SPD 4 at the low end. 
>  
>    In TUSV, I recommend 15/3 for vehicle operators in a superhero world, 
> given that they tend to dish out as well as absorb more damage.  Low-level 
> agents also tend atoward the 15/3 range.  Otherwise I'm with you, Michael; 
> 18/4 is about the lowest one should go for a brick in an average superhero 
> campaign.  (23/5 is average for most types, and 26/6 for martial artists 
> and speedsters, at least in my observation.) 
> --- 
> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
 
I know this is largely a matter of genre convention and personal taste, 
but this seems absolutely ridiculous to me!  Bricks are the SLOW ones, 
right?!  A speed of 4 is twice as fast as an average human, 1 higher than 
an olympic gymnist, and the same level of the three best martial artists 
in the world.  An 18 dexterity is gold-winning olympic level.  I don't 
remember reading the issue of Fantastic Four when the Thing walks a 
tightrope!  A 23 DEX is almost at the very peak of human achievement. 
Maybe 5 normal humans in history had a 23 DEX.  And a Speed of 5 will 
let you run super-humanly fast.  Looking at some of the character 
examples in the BBB, I'm beginning to think points inflation is a major 
problem in the 4th ed. 
 
-Eric (with a DEX of 8 and a Speed of 2) 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 07 Jan 1998 14:59:32 -0500 
Lines: 29 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "CS" == Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> writes: 
 
CS>    Admittedly, it can be difficult to be playing a 3 SPD character in a 
CS> combat with 5s and 6es running around. 
 
If the GM keeps a tight leash on things, this is not a problem.  Sure, a 
Speed 6 martial artist will make twice as many attack rolls as a Speed 3 
brick.  But the brick should have some OCV skill levels or maybe a 1 Hex 
AoE on his Strength -- special effect: huge fists.  You'd be amazed at how 
effective the brick can be if you do that, without pumping his DEX and 
Speed up. 
 
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Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 16:26:19 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Filksinger wrote: 
 
> >On the other hand, buying the characteristics figured from Strength 
> >costs *more* to buy than they would by buying up Strength. 
>  
> In limited cases, involving certain breakpoints, this is true. It 
> obviously isn't true always, 
 
It obviously _is_ true always. Just do the math. 
 
> or else everyone who wanted all of those characteristics high would simply 
> buy STR up to the maximum of the campaign. 
 
Presumably, they don't do so because their concept calls for a lower 
value. Unfortunately, the system is currently set up so that they have to 
pay extra points for the priviledge of a low STR. 
 
I'll point again to the Characters chapter in the BBB. Ignoring the people 
who bought their STR "Doesn't affect figured chars", there are 14 
characters. 12 of them would have a lower cost if they took a higher STR 
and kept the rest of their stats the same. The other 2 couldn't actually 
decrease their costs with more STR, but they could take more STR for no 
cost (and get a +2 STUN or +1 REC to boot). 
 
OTOH, whoever did the Champions & Asesinos was a more skilled rules-rapist 
(I've always found Defender's "PRE, does not affect figured chars" 
particularly delightful.:)) Of the 12 characters under consideration 
(again ignoring "Doesn't affect figured" users, and the page describing 
Seeker and Obsidian fell out of my copy of the BBB long ago), 3 have their 
STR perfectly optimized for their figured chars, 5 could take more for 
free, and only 4 could actually decrease their cost with more STR. 
 
> I also noted that you claim that your objection is that STR gets more 
> in Figured CHA's than its value (true in limited cases). 
 
Always true. 
 
> Very well. I take it then that if STR were rewritten to give you 9 pts 
> in figured characteristics for every 10 you spend on STR, that this would 
> be acceptable. 
 
It would still be underpriced IMO (1 pt for 10 STR?), but it wouldn't be a 
totally broken, absolutely-must-be-fixed item like it is now. (Sort of 
like DEX.) 
 
> If not, please show me 1) how many points saved by buying Base rather 
> than Figured is acceptable 
 
Not the right way to look at it. Decide how much you think the 
characteristic alone is worth, and make sure the cost of the base 
characteristic minus the figured characteristics gained equals this 
amount. (Obviously, this calculation is easiest to make if you make the 
amount gained in figured chars 0.) 
 
> 2) please show me why points effectively gained in skill levels and powers 
> don't count as 'points' in determining if you get more than you pay for. 
 
Because skill levels are effectively just characteristics with a 
limitation "only for certain skills". A bonus to DEX-based skills, for 
example, isn't something you get _along with_ DEX; it _is_ DEX. 
 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"Stainless Steel Rat\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 98 20:28:21  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 06 Jan 1998 15:06:15 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes: 
> 
>q> To those who say, 'Str gives you PD, the ability to wield bigger swords 
>q> and wear heavier armour, HA, and Stun', well the first doesn't help you 
>q> against a sword-thrust or other KA, 
> 
>It does when you are wearing armor, because that PD will count against the 
>Stun damage. 
 
Only an extra point or two. 
 
> The Strength also allows you to wear heavier armor, thus more 
> protection against the Body damage. 
 
Not really - even a STR 5 weakling can wear DEF 8 plate. 
 
>q> and the last barely makes a difference. 
> 
>Two points of Stun can make the difference between consciousness and, well, 
>being killed next time your opponent's action phase comes around. 
 
It's CON that's more important here, to prevent you being stunned as 
(opposed to being unconcious). The high Stun numbers which crop up mean 
thatif you're going to go under, then go under you will. 
 
>q> The HA effect is not so great as nearly everyone is within 2 DC of each 
>q> other, 
> 
>And it adds to your sword's damage. 
 
Again, minimally - 1 or 2 DC. 
 
>q> and the ability to wield that big sword mandates losing the shield, and 
>q> what of that wizard who's tossing 3d6+1RKA fireballs? 
> 
>Why is an FH mage throwing around 50 AP attacks (aside from the fact that 
>the GM failed to keep control over his game)? 
 
Outside a framework, a 50 AP attack costs very little: 
 
OAF (-1), Concentrate+Gestures+Incantations (-1), Side Effects (-1/2), 
-1 worth of assorted Limiteds, RSR (-1/2). Total -4. 
 
gives a Real Cost of 10 pts. 
 
And he may have a familiar giving him a boost, too. 
 
This is a secondary reason why I use VPPs - mages pay the full whack up 
front and this limits them to 30-35 pts in a 75+75 pt game. Just enough 
to be good, as it should be, on a par with those warriors with their 
2d6KA bows and swords. It's still more or less even if you count the 
cost of the extra Str vs the Control Cost of the VPP. 
 
A seasoned mage will be better. A mage who picks up 2 pts every session 
will end up with a 50 pt VPP very quickly. The warriors build up Spd, 
Con, and Body (not Str <g>). At the end of a 3 year campaign, my PCs 
had picked up 200 pts. 
 
Power levels tend to be: Apprentice (Low Fantasy PC) 15 pts, Adept 
(Sword & Sorcery PC) 35 pts, Wizard 60-70 pts, Archmage 100 pts. 
 
One of the reasons I went the Expertise route is to mitigate this - PCs 
get more by putting points in skills - which I tend to emphasise 
anyway. This is because some of the nastier effects require high skill 
rolls, thus giving them a wider range. 
 
See also my earlier post about treating the VPP as a restricted Cosmic 
Pool if one's skill roll in the relevant school of magic is high 
enough. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 16:28:44 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, bobby farris wrote: 
 
> 	Okay, I am going to step into this one. The purpose of an Elemental 
> Control(EC) is to award players that come up with a good character idea. 
 
This fails on two points: 1) _Every_ character should have a good 
character idea anyway, and 2) Having all of your powers have one SFX 
isn't necessarily a better concept than having a variety of SFX in any 
event. 
 
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 16:38:34 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Filksinger wrote: 
 
> On Tuesday, January 06, 1998 5:38 PM, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
 
> >>  t> character who by conception should have had a 10-ish STR, but 
> >>  t> in order to free up enough points to fit in some other things 
> >>  t> which fit the concept, I had to take a 13, 15, 18, or even 20 STR. 
> > 
> >> I've only come up with that problem once 
> > 
> >Once out of every few hundred is way too many. 
>  
> Really? Then in my experience, AP, NND, AVLD, Transformation, Mental 
> powers, telepathy, multipowers, VPP, and frankly, virtually all powers 
> in the game are messed up. They have all caused me trouble at one 
> point or another. Certainly once out of every few hundred. 
 
More than one out of every few hundred Telepathy users finds themselves in 
a position where taking more dice of Telepathy costs them fewer points? I 
don't see how that could happen. (Unless it's bought in an Elemental 
Control - EC's share this problem with STR.) 
 
> >> possibly restrict the other two Frameworks. 
> > 
> >Why? They're fine... they actually give reduced utility for their 
> >reduced cost. 
>  
> Ridiculous. Lets take a quick look at Multipower. 
>  
> 50 Multipower 
> 5u 10d6 EB 
> 5u 5d6 Flash 
> 5u 3d6+1 RKA 
> Total cost: 65 
>  
> 25 10d6 EB, cannot be fired with other attacks (-1) 
> 25 5d6 Flash, cannot be fired with other attacks (-1) 
> 25 3d6+1 RKA, cannot be fired with other attacks (-1) 
> Total cost: 75 
>  
> So with the ridiculous Limitation value of -1 for not being able to 
> fire non-linked attacks together, you still don't come close to the 
> cost savings of Multipower. 
 
You know, if you call your _own_ assumptions ridiculous, you're not going 
to convince anybody.:) You're right; a -1 for "cannot be used with 
certain other powers" is ridiculous; according to my BBB (pp 114-115), 
it's a -9 Limitation, except you need to pay full price for one of those 
powers. 
 
(Which isn't exactly right, but you get my point). 
 
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 14:52:58 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: NOT Re:The  STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> >     xd6 Entangle, AoE radius, No Range, INT attacks do BODY to Entangle 
> > 
> >  By INT attacks, I mean to use INT in the same manner STR is currently 
> >used to damage Entangles. 
> 
> This is a toughy actually because the maze stuff is often more effective the 
> more intelligent you are, whereas your construct will work better the less 
> intelligent you are...... 
 
 
	Huh?  Oh.  It works better if you're smart.  I don't recal it 
working like that in AD&D -- a higher INT resulted in raster excape from 
the maze.  But then again, what's AD&D as a source? 
 
	This would seem to me a classic situation for XDM, UAO.  With 
ranged taked on, of course.  Define the dimention as automatically 
expelling visitors as soon as they finish the maze.  Of course, this 
assumes the victims actually disappear.  If they don't, well, a more 
difficult construct is needed.  (One I don't want to go into right now.) 
 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 15:11:52 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Reply-To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> Do people with high STR dominate your games? Do power gamers in your 
> games gravitate towards bricks? 
 
	Nope.  Nope. 
 
> In other words, do you have any reason taken from _play_ to show that 
> STR doesn't balance? 
 
	Nope. 
 
> I've been gaming for some time, and I have never noticed such a 
> phenomenon. Have you actually seen evidence that characters with high 
> STR do not have a reasonable PLAY balance of abilities? 
 
	Yup.  They're generally less effective than the other character 
types, especially someone with a nice-sized HA with good CVs. 
 
 
	Now to disagree with you a bit: 
 
> Gross points vs net points? Do you mean Active vs. Real? 
 
	Definately not.  I think he means a 250-pt book character vs a 
well-designed 250-pt homemade character.  Assuming the same AP and RP and 
DC limitations.  While the points are the same, the effectiveness is 
generall not.  To be fair, this is not unique to Hero.  Most systems that 
are non-random in character generation have inequities in effeciency. 
Look at Battletech's Book Mechs vs Home Made Mechs. 
 
> Active points are a measure of the power of a character's powers, not 
> a measure of usefulness. If two powers both have a 30 pt Real cost, 
> and one has a 30 pt Active and the other a 60 pt active, the second 
> power is not necessarily a better power, but its more forceful-- more 
> 'powerful'. 
 
	I'd have to disagree again.  RPs and APs are not enough to 
compare.  DCs are a different measure.  The recent argument that STR at 2 
pts per die would be ranked differently DC-wise is bull.   Look at DC 
effectiveness.  Even though  an HA can fit 20 dice into 60 AP, that's 20 
DCs.  Way more than I'd allow.  Paying 100 pts for 60 pts of STR still 
only gives 12 DCs.  Thbe rest of the cost is for STR's other varied 
effects. 
 
	Note, however, this would make any advantage on STR too expensive 
for its actualy value.  AP on STR just wouldn't be worth it.  Another nice 
arguement to keep STR where it is. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 15:23:23 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> Finally, though, I will admit to looking through "Classic Enemies" and 
> seeing a _lot_ of DEX/SPD numbers that made me scratch my head.  Thunder & 
> Lighting stand out as some of the worst.  Where in their orgins do we see 
> an explination for DEXs of 20+ and a SPD of 5?  And don't even talk about 
> Eurostar (average DEX is... what?  29, 30?  Low of 20, high of 35). 
 
	Combat effectiveness and panel saturation.  How are they in 
combat, over all.  Do they seem to attack a lot?  Do they hit pretty often 
while avoiding getting hit.  Do they always seem to get the jump on the 
normals, no matter how "slow" they are compared to other heroes.  How do 
they compare to other supers?  Always faster and better in combat 
effectiveness? 
 
	Also, look at how often they'd appear in a comic.  What kind of 
proportion of the panels would they be in? 
 
	DEX is not just Acrobatics, something that everyone seems to miss. 
It is mostly a combat stat with some minor non-combat uses.  I've rarely 
seen a situation where even the "slow" supers aren't at least twice as 
fast and effective as normals. 
 
 
 
			-Tiom Gilberg 
 
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 15:30:25 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> have superhuman strength when the concept does not warrant its use. As has 
> been pointed out strength might be considered a special framework where the 
> concept of being extremely strong is accompanied by increased durability and 
> stamina (not unreasonable in my eyes). 
 
	Good point.  This also is true for any framework or limitation. 
If it doesn't fit, the GM can disallow this.  I persoanlly don't heve much 
problem with most heroes having a 13 or 15 STR.  They can usually punch a 
little harder, throw and jump a little further, etc, that normals. 
 
	The various "crocks" balance out, when looked at from many 
sessions of game play, but YMMV. 
 
> I think the main thing that convinced me that the cost isn't really broken 
> was the one about whether we saw a rush for brick type characters in the 
> games we play. I certainly don't. In fact if there is preponderance of 
> anything it tends to be martial artist type characters, perhaps there is 
> something broken there!!? :-) 
 
 
	Nope, they just have a bit more "coolness" factor.  I've got a few 
players who like the idea of being the "Ninja with sword" archetype. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 15:33:03 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
> This might have made sense in 1981, when Hero first appeared. The problem 
> is that in todays world, it is *expected* that you'll have a consistent 
> background and powers -- your character should simply be disallowed if he 
> doesn't. 
 
 
	Why?  Jack-of-all-trades types really do exist.  Many characters 
have different enough abilities not to get a framework, but the character 
conception still works.  Incidentally, the increased utility of differing 
abilities is usually pretty usefull, expecially when the GM allows for the 
usage of all of a character's powers. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
 
Reply-To: <dflacks@ican.net> 
From: "dflacks" <dflacks@ican.net> 
Subject: Hero Games Web Update 
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 16:38:59 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Netminder just sent me a notice saying that the hero games web site has 
been update.  I have looked over the web site and can not find anything 
different.  Does anyone on the list know what, if anything, has actually 
changed. 
 
Give me ambiquity or give me something else 
dflacks@ican.net 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 14:50:47 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:52 PM 1/7/98 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote: 
> 
>Stephen McGinness wrote:  
>> From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness) 
>>  
>> I think the main thing that convinced me that the cost isn't really broken  
>> was the one about whether we saw a rush for brick type characters in the  
>> games we play. I certainly don't. In fact if there is preponderance of  
>> anything it tends to be martial artist type characters, perhaps there is  
>> something broken there!!? :-) 
>>  
>Yeah, but how strong are the martial artists ?  15, 18, 20 Strength ? 
>Do their character conceptions really justify them being that strong ? 
 
   In many cases, yes, or darn close.  Many real life martial also do some 
extensive weight training, and while 20 is arguably excessive even in a 
superhero world (where they have to be prepared to fight "true" 
superhumans), it does reflect the tendency of martial artists to go beyond 
mere general fitness. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 14:57:19 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
  
> > Gross points vs net points? Do you mean Active vs. Real? 
>  
>         Definately not.  I think he means a 250-pt book character vs a 
> well-designed 250-pt homemade character.  Assuming the same AP and RP and 
> DC limitations.  While the points are the same, the effectiveness is 
> generall not.  To be fair, this is not unique to Hero.  Most systems that 
> are non-random in character generation have inequities in effeciency. 
> Look at Battletech's Book Mechs vs Home Made Mechs. 
 
   Actually, Gross pts. vs. Net pts. would refer to Total Char Cost vs. 
(Disads-Total Char Cost).  The theory goes that any character built on 
100 Base (free) points should be competitive with any other character 
built on 100 base points; the Disadvantages should equalize or 'cancel 
out' the points gained from them in powers/stuff. 
 
   I.E. MondoDude has 100 base points and 75 points in Disads and total 
CHAR cost is 175.  LittleDude hase 100 base points and 10 points in 
Disads and a total CHAR cost of 110.  They both have the same NET cost, 
since Total CHAR Cost - Disads = 100 in both cases.  Theoretically, over 
the course of a campaign, they should be equally competitive.  This is 
probably seldom so.  It is also probably seldom so that GMs are strictly 
"By the Book" with all of every character's disads.  Quite frankly with 
- say - five 250-point characters in a game, there wouldn't be any time 
to do anything else BUT play everyones' disads if all were STRICTLY 
adhered to. 
 
   This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it is where the strict math 
breaks down. 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 15:06:58 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Monster Trucks 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:30 PM 1/6/98 -0500, Kevin J. McClain wrote: 
> 
> 
>Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>>    A new idea for a campaign just came to mind, where investigators of the 
>> supernatural (a la X-Files) hunt down demons who haunt pickups -- they 
>> really are Monster Trucks!   :-] 
> 
>It's been done. Watch Van-pyres on Saturday morning. 
 
   Argh.  And here I thought I was being clever.... 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 15:15:24 -0800 
From: mcallahan <mcallahan@home.com> 
Reply-To: mcallahan@home.com 
Subject: Re: more thoughts on bleeding 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>This is seductive, I want to do a probability check on these numbers but  
>haven't really got the time to do it properly.  As far as I can see just now  
>there is an decreasing probability of stopping bleeding, is this what you want?? 
> 
>For 1d6 you have a 1 in 6 chance to stop bleeding (~17%) 
>For 2d6 you have a 1 in 12 chance to stop bleeding (8.5%) 
>For 3d6 you have a 1 in 36 chance to stop bleeding (~3%) 
> 
>There is virtualy no chance to stop bleeding on 4d6 to 6d6. 
> 
>Probability gets mean quickly!! 
 
The chance to stop bleeding should get worse, the worse you are injured, 
If you are bleeding at the 4d6 level you've taken at least 16 body, at 
that point the chances to just stop bleeding should be nil (16 body 
would be the average roll for a 4 1/2 d6 killing attack, this is an 
attack bigger than a law rocket). With these bleeding rules and average 
shot from a 1d6 killing attack (small hand gun, knife) will probably 
stop bleeding, a hit from a 2d6 killing attack (big gun, rifle, sword) 
might stop bleeding, and a hit from anything bigger (.50 cal, law 
rocket) will kill a character dead (unless a paramedic helps him). This 
would seem to be an appropriate level of lethality. This also leads to 
characters being removed from combat after one solid hit from a killing 
attack as and amount of body taken becomes a major concern (no more of 
this "so what if I'm down 10 body, I've got 5 left, no way they can do 
that in one shot thru my armor, I keep fighting" nonsense).  
It is way more lethal, that's why it's important to move bleeding to 
once a minute, so the paramedics (or corpsman, or cleric, or whatever) 
have time to arive.  
And in the more book keeping department, I also make players keep track 
of how much body they have lost due to bleeding because they can get 
back the entire amount at the hospital when the doctors pump them full 
of whole blood (or half the amount if all they can get is plasma). 
 
X-Sender: wbandsis@mail.westco.net 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 18:24:59 -0500 
From: "C. Badger" <wbandsis@westco.net> 
Subject: Re: Hero Games Web Update 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 16:38 01/07/98 -0500, dflacks wrote: 
>Netminder just sent me a notice saying that the hero games web site has 
>been update.  I have looked over the web site and can not find anything 
>different.  Does anyone on the list know what, if anything, has actually 
>changed. 
 
Most of the updates have been in the digital hero portion of their site. 
----- 
C. Badger 
 
My Feet hurt and I've forgotten how to dance. 
			Londo 
			Babylon 5 
 
 
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:40:36 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character (Inflation!) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Eric Burns wrote: 
 
> I know this is largely a matter of genre convention and personal taste, 
> but this seems absolutely ridiculous to me!  Bricks are the SLOW ones, 
> right?!  A speed of 4 is twice as fast as an average human, 1 higher than 
> an olympic gymnist, and the same level of the three best martial artists 
> in the world.  An 18 dexterity is gold-winning olympic level.  I don't 
> remember reading the issue of Fantastic Four when the Thing walks a 
> tightrope!  A 23 DEX is almost at the very peak of human achievement. 
> Maybe 5 normal humans in history had a 23 DEX.  And a Speed of 5 will 
> let you run super-humanly fast.  Looking at some of the character 
> examples in the BBB, I'm beginning to think points inflation is a major 
> problem in the 4th ed. 
 
Look, I'm nopt trying to start a flame war here, but I find your values a 
little ridiculous.  Don't you think it is a bit silly to claim that 
'maybe 5 normal humans in history had a 23 DEX'?  We have no real way to 
measure any of the numbers you have given, so why get all bent out of 
shape? 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
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*************************************************************************** 
 
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 18:03:31 -0600 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Speedster alternative...but not a good one 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
While the speedster described here is absurdly complicated, and in several 
cases violates the intent if not the letter if the 4th Edition rules and 
power descriptions, I leave it here in hopes you may find some kernel of 
inspiration in some part of the character concept.  This character ran (pun 
intentional) in a campaign I was in several years ago.   
 
The GM and I worked her out jointly, but as he's not here to defend 
himself, I'll shoulder all the blame for this horror.  In my defense I can 
only say that the quest to create speedster characters with point costs 
that approach that of other common 
super-types can do strange things to a player's mind.  I do not pretend to 
have noted all the flaws herein.  Those of you who hemmorage internally at 
the sight of rules- abuseing characters...you've been warned. 
 
ATALANTA 
13 STR    3 
23 DEX    17 [see notes below] 
15 CON    10 
13 BODY   6 
15 INT    5 
13 EGO    6 
18 PRE    8 
18 COM    4 
 3 PD     0 
 3 ED     0 
12 SPD    39 [see notes below] 
10 REC    8 
48 END    9 
40 STUN   12 
- - - - - - -  
TOTAL =  127 
 
DEX cost: Each set of 3 pts. of DEX over 10 is bought with the following 
limitations: Linked to SPD (-1/2), Burnout 11- (-3/4).  So the cost of DEX 
points 11-13 is 9 / 2.25 = 4; ditto the cost of points 14-16, 17-19, and 
20-22.  Point 23 is bought alone, 
rather than boost her DEX up to 25; by itself it has a cost of 1 after the 
limitations are applied, so the total cost for 13 points of DEX is 17. 
 
SPD cost: Atalanta's base SPD is 3.3, which would round down to 3.0, but 
she spends 7 points to bring it up to 4.0 before that happens.  (Allowing 
players to do this may have been a house rule at the time.)  Each of the 
eight remaining SPD points is bought 
with the following limitations: Uses END (-1/2), Burnout 11- (-3/4).  Each 
point of speed above 4 costs 4 points, for a total of 32. 
 
Every time Atalanta pushes her SPD to maximum (12, to start with) she has 
to make a Burnout roll.  If her 12 SPD burns out, she has a maximum SPD of 
11 for the rest of the adventure.  The first time (after SPD 12 burns out) 
that she uses SPD 11, another 
burnout roll is required.  Once her maximum available SPD drops below 10, 
her DEX (linked to SPD, remember?) drops to 22.  As her maximum available 
SPD drops, her DEX drops as shown:  
 
MAX. SPD       DEX 
- - - - - - - - - - 
    12          23 
    11          23 
    10          23 
     9          22 
     8          19 
     7          16 
     6          13 
     5          10 
     4          10 
 
Note that her OCV and DCV will drop with her DEX; she has no real combat 
training (though she works out and lifts weights to get that STR), and 
relies on her sheer speed to get past her opponent's defenses and evade his 
attacks. 
 
Her primary power is running, but as is common, it's based on Flight.  She 
has Enhanced Senses which kick in only when she's running (Telescopic 
Vision used to offset range penalties for sight) so she can perceive 
obstacles earlier than normal and avoid running into them.  She also 
generates a Force Field when she runs, that provides PD at his speeds.  The 
strength of the Force Field increases with her speed, and is worth 28 PD/0 
ED at speeds of 350 mph or more.  This is one of the more obvious flaws in 
the character concept, by the way: the Force Field provides no ED at any 
speed, but presumably protects the character against damage from the 
wind/air resistance/drag effects she herself creates while running (she is 
after all encountering wind force greater than that of a hurricane when she 
runs that fast). The cost breaks down as follows: 
 
40" of Flight.  Instant Acceleration/Deceleration (+1/2), No Turn Mode 
(+1/4), 3 continuing recoverable charges (one minute each, must eat after 
use) +0; Feet must touch some surface (-1/2), Cannot climb or dive (-1/4), 
Cannot run up vertical surfaces at 
less than 100 mph (-1/4), Running surface must be able to support her mass 
at speeds less than 175 mph (-1/4) REAL COST: 62 points/.  (She can run up 
the side of a building at 100 mph or better and run on water at 175 mph or 
better.) 
 
The Force Field is linked to Flight, has 3 continuing recoverable charges, 
and strengthens based on her velocity: 
 
     25-49 mph       2 PD, bought with -1/4 limitation 
     50-99 mph      +4 PD, bought with -1/2 limitation 
     100-174 mph    +6 PD, bought with -3/4 limitation 
     175-349 mph    +2 PD, bought with -1 limitation 
     350+ mph       +14 PD, bought with -1 1/4 limitation 
 
(Another flaw in the character concept; the PD does not increase in a 
logical progression.)  REAL COST is 18 points. 
 
Depending on her velocity, she can have up to +16 to offset visual range 
penalties.  Using the same mph breakpoints as above, she gets +8 at 25 mph, 
then +2 at each level thereafter.  REAL COST is 11 points. 
 
Total Real Cost for Superspeed Running with Force Field and Telescopic 
Vision is 91 points.  All her remaining speedster powers are in a 45 point 
Multipower.  All slots are fixed, and none of them may be used at a SPD of 
less than 10 (-1 1/2 limitation). 
 
Slot 1: Extra-Dimensional Movement (through time, to previous phase) 45 AP. 
 Cannot undo/alter anything done in the past, cannot travel back more than 
one phase (- 1/2) 
 
Slot 2: +2d6 HTH Attack. Area of Effect: Any Area (+1 3/4), Selective 
Targets (+1), Autofire up to 5 shots (+1/2) 
 
Slot 3: Missile Deflection (bullets & shrapnel) at range (75") +3 to 
Deflection roll 
 
Slot 4: Molecular Vibration (Desolidification, character is affected by 
sonic attacks), Extra Time (full phase) 
 
Total cost for the multipower, including fixed slots: 22 points.  The uses 
of the last three slots shouldn't cause too much heartburn to anyone 
familiar with speedsters.  The first slot is the single most convoluted 
part of the whole character concept, and was a blatant attempt to get as 
many actions as possible into a single combat phase while paying the fewest 
points possible.  No actual time travel is involved, it's just a way to 
simulate the character being in several places at once.  Duplication may 
work better, I can't remember why I didn't use it at the time. 
 
Combat is bizarre for this character.  Assuming she has a 12 SPD available 
and begins with her full 48 END, she will throw up to 5 punches using the 
Autofire/Selective Target/Area Effect: Any Area advantages on her HTH 
Attack, or take some other single-phase action. Next phase, use 
Extra-Dimensional Movement to return to the previous phase to take 
additional actions.  Remember, no time travel is really involved, so she 
won't truly experience that second phase again, though her combat sequence 
makes it look as if she does.  Because on top of everything else Atalanta 
is using END to use any SPD higher than 4, she would up having to take 
recovery phases in 4 out of 12 combat phases, in addition to the post-12 
recovery.  Starting with SPD 12 and 48 END, she'd exhaust all END after the 
first turn of combat; then a repeating cycle began with the second turn. 
The repeating pattern wound up being: 
 
Phase 1 - Take a recovery; post-12 wasn't quite enough 
Phase 2 - Take 4 single phase actions, using up at least 8 END points for 
the SPD being used at that point. 
Phase 3 - Use Extra-Dimensional Movement three times, allowing a total of 4 
actions in the previous phase.  EDM cannot be used a fourth time, due to 
insufficient END remaining.    
Phase 4 - Take a recovery. 
Phase 5 - Take 3 single-phase actions. 
Phase 6 - Use EDM twice to account for those three actions. 
Phase 7 - Recover. 
Phase 8 - Take 4 single-phase actions. 
Phase 9 - Use EDM three times to account for those four. 
Phase 10 - Recover. 
Phase 11 - Take 3 actions. 
Phase 12 - Use EDM twice. 
 
The above applied to every even-numbered turn; in every odd-numbered turn 
after the first, the sequence was as above, but the number of actions taken 
was 4,4,3,4 rather than 4,3,4,3 as a result of how the REC and END 
interacted.  Most of this activity 
could be worked out in advance of the game, much less the combat, and put 
into a chart or table.  All that had to be done during the actual combat 
(assuming she had her full SPD and END) was to take multiple actions during 
phases 2,5,8 and 11, and no action 
at other times.   
 
Besides the Superspeed Running (w/ Force Field and Telescopic Vision) and 
the multipower described above, Atalanta had Instant Change (any set of 
clothes, clothes must be on hand -1/4), and Regeneration (1 BODY/hr, 3 
shifts down the time chart -3/4) with 
a Side Effect: 3d6 Drain vs. END -1/2, Won't work if Drain total exceeds 
END -1/4), Sleight of Hand, Cramming, Defense Maneuver, Lightning 
Calculator and Speed Reading. 
 
The total real cost of the character at the time of her creation was 380 
points, and was paid for with a base of 100 points, plus an absurd number 
of Disads. One potentially interesting one was her hyper metabolism: she 
cannot drop her SPD below 4 (which 
could be bad if she's bleeding or drowning) has weird reactions to common 
drugs, has to eat every couple of hours, has unusual sleep patterns, etc. 
We gave her 10 points for all that.  The GM also allowed her to sell back 
her "normal" 6" of Running for 12 
points.   
 
Damon 
wishing something 4th Edition would be done to update/support Star HERO 
 
 
 
 
	 
 
------------------------ 
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability  
of the human mind to correlate all its contents. 
			-- H.P. Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu" 
 
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 19:03:35 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
> > Finally, though, I will admit to looking through "Classic Enemies" and 
> > seeing a _lot_ of DEX/SPD numbers that made me scratch my head.  Thunder & 
> > Lighting stand out as some of the worst.  Where in their orgins do we see 
> > an explination for DEXs of 20+ and a SPD of 5?  And don't even talk about 
> > Eurostar (average DEX is... what?  29, 30?  Low of 20, high of 35). 
>  
> 	Combat effectiveness and panel saturation.  How are they in 
> combat, over all.   
 
Panel Saturation should be used to gauge SPD not DEX.  For example, 
regardless of what *DEX* you give the Flash from Kingdom Come, he has a 12 
*SPD*. 
 
> Do they seem to attack a lot?  Do they hit pretty often 
> while avoiding getting hit.  Do they always seem to get the jump on the 
> normals, no matter how "slow" they are compared to other heroes.  How do 
> they compare to other supers?  Always faster and better in combat 
> effectiveness? 
 
Meaning what?  That Batman *should* have a 30 DEX and a 6 SPD?  Also a lot 
of what you have written here can be better represented by CSLs. 
  
> 	Also, look at how often they'd appear in a comic.  What kind of 
> proportion of the panels would they be in? 
 
Okay, but this is Eurostar from CE.  Why is the *whole* team DEX 26+? 
(sorry, Mentalla DEX 20, Durak DEX 23...) 
  
> 	DEX is not just Acrobatics, something that everyone seems to miss. 
> It is mostly a combat stat with some minor non-combat uses.  I've rarely 
> seen a situation where even the "slow" supers aren't at least twice as 
> fast and effective as normals. 
 
I won't go that far, but yeah, in most games I've been in, almost *anY* PC 
starts at or near DEX 18 SPD 4 and works his way up. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 18:34:06 -0800 
From: mcallahan <mcallahan@home.com> 
Reply-To: mcallahan@home.com 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>If Str is 2pts then shouldn't this be [100] (or str 50, but all the 
>>figureds seem to be calculated from 60str) 
> 
>Ack.  My bad -- this is what happens when you scribble notes off the top of 
>your head and then post them. Somewhere in the middle of character 
>generation, I got muddled between buying a 50 and 60 STR.  
 
I understand how this goes, just the other day I posted a message where 
I said .42% when I ment 42% 
 
>>The cross gives you a 14d6 strike which violates many games DC limits 
> 
>Yes, but if you lower the STR to its proper value of 50, you no longer 
>violate that limit. :] 
 
And you pd drops to 28 (total) your rec to 13 and your stun to 50 
 
>>off to balance the character, which seems to be the point, if you raise 
>>the cost of str then bricks will have to scrimp some place else, in this 
>>case dex and spd. 
> 
>Which would fit the genre.  That's part of the reason why we call them 
>"bricks".  As has been pointed out before, when the big bruisers are pushing 
>the stated maximum for human agility, it waters down the meaning of the >stat. 
 
Agreed point: Bricks should have lower than average Dex& Spd 
Point of GM Preference: What the average SPD should be. 
 
Based entirely on my personal experience a majority of champion games 
appear to be based on average Dex23/spd5 (this may not be true but it's 
where I'm starting from, if it's wrong my argument still works just in 
the opposite direction). In a 23/5 game this character is very slow. 
In a game where 15/3 is good for a brick, an energy projector can get 
away with a 18 or 20 dex and a 4 spd. The energy projector will then 
have extra points available because of the 3 or 5  points of dex and the 
point of speed he didn't have to buy. 
 
A possible solution for the cost of str, have STR not provide any 
damage, base hth damage would have to be bought for 5 pts per d6 (and 
base hth dc's add to HKA's), I personally wouldn't do this, but it does 
seem like a logical solution for people who don't like the cost of str. 
 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 18:49:09 -0800 
From: mcallahan <mcallahan@home.com> 
Reply-To: mcallahan@home.com 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>Panel Saturation should be used to gauge SPD not DEX.  For example, 
>regardless of what *DEX* you give the Flash from Kingdom Come, he has a 12 
>*SPD*. 
Panel saturation mostly gauges who's book it is, otherwise you could say 
that Norman McCay is one of the fastest characters in Kingdom Come 
 
And on the subject of DC speedsters, they are out of scale like superman 
is. I'd give The flash a speed of 144 (yes 144) and extend the speed 
chart down into 1/12 second incraments.  There are whole fight sceenes 
where speedsters fight, and the normals around them don't move at all 
(like the fight between wally and the "speed ninjas" at the begining of 
dead heat). 
Dc speedsters don't model well in normal champion games 
 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-5,7-13,19-20,22-24 
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts) 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 22:15:53 EST 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>> > rather than agility.  An 18 DEX is what girl that has been 
>> performing 
>> > gymnastics or ballet for the past 10 years has.  Or, at least, 
>> given Hero's 
>> > description and range for what is "normal" this is the case. 
 
Or, she's got a 13 DEX and several points spent on Acrobatics (and 
possibly Breakfall). 
 
>    The easy 
>comparison people make is Dex seems to equal gymnastic ability.  It's 
>really kind of a composite stat that covers manual dexterity, agility, 
>reaction time and reflexes. 
 
Absolutely!  I've been working in stained glass for several years, and 
have yet to carve myself up with either the glass cutter or the glass 
edges.  I can handle an x-acto knife without danger to fingers or craft 
project.  However, if you average in everything that DEX covers, there's 
no way I rate anything over 10.  I don't have some of the other facets of 
that stat, and that counterbalances my hand-eye coordination. 
 
(BTW, please forgive any incoherancy in this post.  I've been pulling 
double shifts at work because several people are out sick.) 
 
Leah 
 
X-Sender: jrc@pop1.nai.net (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 22:25:05 -0500 
From: "Joe Claffey Jr." <jrc@mail1.nai.net> 
Subject: Re: Champions 5th Edition 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Gold Rush Games asked, 
>  That brings up another question: What kind of illo would you folks like to 
>see for the cover? A collage of different scenes? A comic-booky sort of illo 
>(usually a fight scene)? 
 
 Well, if it's the HERO rules (no set genre), then a collage of different 
genres would be best. The system is flexible, the cover should show just 
what it can do. 
 
>  One other note. Keep in mind that, primarily because of financial 
>considerations, we are looking at printing the Hero System rules book 
>separately, with Champions being a genre book. Champions would have the super 
>power rules in there, as well as a *much* better treatment of the genre, 
>examples, no "official universe" inside (rather examples and notes on creating 
>several different types, etc., but the Hero System "core" rules would be in 
>the Hero System rules book. 
 
 The power creation rules *are* part of the core rules. You can't play any 
genre without them (well, except maybe "Accounting HERO"). :-) The 
reprinted HSR should have what the old HSR had. 
 
 What would be nice (and would justify a higher price tag) is a few "sample 
genres" in the back. It wouldn't be much, but 4-6 pages on bending the 
rules into a particular genre (and a sample character) would help novice 
HERO GMs get a feel for the system, and whet their appetite for the full 
genre book. 
 
>  In addition, future genre books would be published like the "new" Champions 
>book, and we may even be able to publish revisions of older genre books 
>(Fantasy Hero, anyone?). 
 
 Good. I'd pay for a consolidated and corrected version of Fantasy Hero. 
:-) Anyways, the genre books are the perfect place to put rules that have 
little application outside a particular genre (martial arts creation, magic 
systems, starship design, etc). 
 
  Joe Claffey               | "In the end, everything is a gag." 
  jrc@ct1.nai.net           |               - Charlie Chaplin 
 
 
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:00:22 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified) 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Speedster alternative...but not a good one 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>DEX cost: Each set of 3 pts. of DEX over 10 is bought with the following 
>limitations: Linked to SPD (-1/2), Burnout 11- (-3/4).  So the cost of DEX 
>points 11-13 is 9 / 2.25 = 4; ditto the cost of points 14-16, 17-19, and 
>20-22.  Point 23 is bought alone, 
>rather than boost her DEX up to 25; by itself it has a cost of 1 after the 
>limitations are applied, so the total cost for 13 points of DEX is 17. 
> 
>SPD cost: Atalanta's base SPD is 3.3, which would round down to 3.0, but 
>she spends 7 points to bring it up to 4.0 before that happens.  (Allowing 
>players to do this may have been a house rule at the time.)  Each of the 
>eight remaining SPD points is bought 
>with the following limitations: Uses END (-1/2), Burnout 11- (-3/4).  Each 
>point of speed above 4 costs 4 points, for a total of 32. 
 
>Every time Atalanta pushes her SPD to maximum (12, to start with) she has 
>to make a Burnout roll.  If her 12 SPD burns out, she has a maximum SPD of 
>11 for the rest of the adventure.  The first time (after SPD 12 burns out) 
>that she uses SPD 11, another 
>burnout roll is required.  Once her maximum available SPD drops below 10, 
>her DEX (linked to SPD, remember?) drops to 22.  As her maximum available 
>SPD drops, her DEX drops as shown:  
 
Ah, no, every time she would have to make a Burnout roll for EVERY point of 
SPD over 4 and every 3 points of DEX over 10. This is the most laughable 
construct I've ever seen! 
 
>40" of Flight.  Instant Acceleration/Deceleration (+1/2), No Turn Mode 
>(+1/4), 3 continuing recoverable charges (one minute each, must eat after 
>use) +0; Feet must touch some surface (-1/2), Cannot climb or dive (-1/4), 
>Cannot run up vertical surfaces at 
>less than 100 mph (-1/4), Running surface must be able to support her mass 
>at speeds less than 175 mph (-1/4) REAL COST: 62 points/.  (She can run up 
>the side of a building at 100 mph or better and run on water at 175 mph or 
>better.) 
 
Well, a lot of this is egregious 'point shaving', but aside from the house 
rules (instant accel, no turn modes), not too abusive. 
 
>The Force Field is linked to Flight, has 3 continuing recoverable charges, 
>and strengthens based on her velocity: 
> 
>     25-49 mph       2 PD, bought with -1/4 limitation 
>     50-99 mph      +4 PD, bought with -1/2 limitation 
>     100-174 mph    +6 PD, bought with -3/4 limitation 
>     175-349 mph    +2 PD, bought with -1 limitation 
>     350+ mph       +14 PD, bought with -1 1/4 limitation 
> 
>(Another flaw in the character concept; the PD does not increase in a 
>logical progression.)  REAL COST is 18 points. 
 
Note that it's not really an ascending limitation, as the player gets MORE 
utility out of flight with MORE velocity. And since it's on charges, there's 
no reason to not run at top speed, especially with 'instant acceleration' 
and 'no turn modes'. Values of these limitations? -1/4, TOTAL. 
 
>Depending on her velocity, she can have up to +16 to offset visual range 
>penalties.  Using the same mph breakpoints as above, she gets +8 at 25 mph, 
>then +2 at each level thereafter.  REAL COST is 11 points. 
 
Ditto. 
 
>Total Real Cost for Superspeed Running with Force Field and Telescopic 
>Vision is 91 points.  All her remaining speedster powers are in a 45 point 
>Multipower.  All slots are fixed, and none of them may be used at a SPD of 
>less than 10 (-1 1/2 limitation). 
 
Given that your 'concept' of how the burnout would work, she'd get at least 
two turns of speedster tricks, right? Value of limitation? -1/2 at best. 
 
>Slot 1: Extra-Dimensional Movement (through time, to previous phase) 45 AP. 
> Cannot undo/alter anything done in the past, cannot travel back more than 
>one phase (- 1/2) 
 
Wierd. What good is it? 
 
>Slot 2: +2d6 HTH Attack. Area of Effect: Any Area (+1 3/4), Selective 
>Targets (+1), Autofire up to 5 shots (+1/2) 
 
Oooh, with a piddly STR, she pro-rates to what, 2D6 HA? Scary.... 
 
I suggest you go re-read "Burnout" and "Activation". All those DEX and SPD 
'nuggets' would require their own activation rolls, and would burn out 
pretty darn fast at 11-... 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 07 Jan 98 20:28:00 -0800 
Subject: Re: STR Cost (Re: Announ 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 > This would be more accurate to say "The HERO System was a great game,  
 > especially its Champions segment, and it's amazing how much better it  
 > is  
 > now".  Remember, "Champions" is more a genre label than a game rules  
 > label  
 > (thus, both HERO 4th Edition and Fuzion's The New Millenium are  
 > "Champions").  
  
Nope, when Champions came out, it was just Champions....  
though that's certainly true now.  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long) 
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 20:38:16 -0800 
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On Tuesday, January 06, 1998 8:35 PM, Firelynx16 wrote: 
 
<snip> 
>Sorry for the confusion.  I am saying Str should be left as is. 
> 
>On the one hand you're saying Str should cost more, but on the other 
you're 
>saying it's value or worth respective to other attacks should remain 
>unchanged.  And that doesn't make sense.  Character points in Hero 
reflect the 
>overall value of a power or skill compared to other powers and skills 
in the 
>game.  That's why you can say 12d6 EB is comparable to a 4d6 KA.   So 
if Str 
>costs 2/1, then 30 Str would be equal to 12d6 EB.  If you don't think 
that 30 
>Str is an even value swap with 12d6 EB, then Str doesn't need to be 
priced at 
>2/1. 
> 
>What I was trying to show is that you'd be using a different 
measuring stick 
>for Bricks than you'd be using for everybody else, and that'd be 
wrong.  You 
>either base the campaign limits on Active Points for everybody, or 
damage dice 
>for everybody.  (or whatever the GM decides upon)   Giving one group 
a 
>different barometer isn't fair.  So if a Brick spends 100 points to 
get 50 
>extra Str his total Active Point cost would be 120 (100 + 20 base). 
If this 
>was an Active Point campain, then everyone should get 120 points as 
their 
>limit.  If you're going to base it on damage dice, like you're 
suggesting, 
>then you've got to allow the rest of the characters to buy things 
like 12d6 
>Armor Piercing One Hex Area Effect, since that too is a 12d6 attack, 
and costs 
>the exact same as the 60 Str. 
> 
 
 
Actually, the BBB recommends two possible comparisons-- Active Points 
and Damage Class. Thus, 60 STR, no matter what it cost, is still DC 
12. Your Armor Piercing One Hex Area Effect is 1d6/2DC, and therefore 
would not be comparable. 
 
Damage dice is worthless as a comparison, the way you are using it. DC 
is the way to go, and balances 60 STR to 12d6 EB, no matter what the 
price of STR. 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 07 Jan 98 20:39:02 -0800 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 > From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>  
 >  
 > JL> So, any CHA like DEX, CON, BODY, etc are all broken?  
 >  
 > None of these give you more than you pay for.  To wit, you will pay  
.......  
 > same values by increasing CON and Body.  
 >  
 
 
10 CON  20pts  
  
 2 ED    2  
 2 REC   4  
20 END  10  
 5 STN   5  
        --  
        21 points.  
  
This was an infamous way of getting infinite points back in the  
early days of 1st Ed, whe you weren't specifically prohibited from  
buying down multiple figured characteristics.  Why STR didn't gain  
similar notoriety at the time, I have no idea.  
  
 > On the other hand, buying the characteristics figured from Strength  
 > costs  
 > *more* to buy than they would by buying up Strength.  
  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun lotto 
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 20:43:10 -0800 
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On Tuesday, January 06, 1998 8:37 PM, Tokyo Mark wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
>Secondly, remember, hit locations are still fairly general.  A .357 
magnum 
>shot to the head that rolls two 1's can be a graze along the side of 
the 
>head.  I admit I'm occasioanlly annoyed by the degree of randomness 
in 
>killing attacks.  I always hate to see a grenade fall at someone's 
feet, 
>then roll snake eyes.  But I'd rather see that than see something 
that 
>makes death easy. 
> 
Actually, that is a problem I have with Hero simulating the cinematic 
heroic genre. Using the Hit Location chart, it is impossible to get 
the effect of, "The bullet knocked him out when it grazed the skull, 
but he's all right." Without the Hit Location chart, the Stun lotto 
can give you this effect, but it is impossible to get the effect, "I 
shot him in the head with a single round from a ..357 Magnum. He's 
dead." In fact, you _can't_ kill him with a single round from a .357, 
if he has 10 BODY. 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 07 Jan 98 20:52:04 -0800 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 t > > possibly restrict the other two Frameworks.  
 t >  
 t > Why? They're fine... they actually give reduced utility for their  
 t > reduced  
 t > cost.  
 t >  
  
Well, it depends on how attacks work, if you can stack them, sure,  
otherwise, what's the downside to a Multipower full of attacks -  
you can only use them what at a time anyway.  
  
And then VPPs can be compared to a Multipower with an unlimited  
number of slots.... since they don't cost infinite points....  
  
Niether are as significant as EC.  
 
 
 t > > And, to keep characters at a similar power level, increase  
 t > > point totals by 50-100 points  
 t >  
 t > I agree with those who say that this should have been done for 4th,  
 t > actually, to allow for the expanded skill list.  
 t >  
 t > > (actually, you'd probably want to reduce the value of limitations  
 t > too...  
 t >  
 t > Why?  
  
It's pretty easy to put a large portion of your powers under a +1/4  
or +1/2 limitation without being horribly inconvenienced (OIHID, for  
instance).  By increasing the point totals, you magnify the effect  
of such things.  
  
For instance a 250pt character with an 'overall' +1/4 lim (which is  
extreme, I need a simple example) saves around the same 60 points  
as a STR or EC based character.... So, a simple, no-limitations  
brick is competative in a game that includes powered armor characters  
and the like.  After you fix STR, that's less likely to be the  
case.  It's not an insurmountable problem, but something that should  
be considered.  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 00:13:35 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>   
> Personally, I like playing towards the human end of the DEX/SPD  
> scale.  DEX & SPD are expensive, so I have more points for powers  
> levels, and skills.  
>   
> But there is a rationale for having most super-beings having relatively  
> high Dex/SPD:  they end up fighting super-humanly fast characters fairly  
> often... at that point you just have to stretch....  
 
I think everyone has their own tastes and it often depends on what type of 
game they like.  I'm usually slightly on the higher end since I like to 
run games that are more outrageous.  In my current Ancient China Kung Fu 
game I kept Human Char Max, but freely let people buy above 20 if they 
really wanted to pay double. 
 
As a result, half the characters have one stat above 20.  But the range of 
dex and sped is from 13/3 to 23/5.  In my own personal opinion I prefer 
speeds to be relatively close together.  When I'm a 4 and everyone else is 
a five or six (as I was in a recent super hero level game) it's not much 
fun. 
 
TokyoMark 
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 07 Jan 98 21:14:00 -0800 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
To: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>  
 l > At 10:04 AM 1/7/98 -0600, bobby farris wrote:  
 l >  
 l > > Okay, I am going to step into this one. The purpose of an Elemental  
 l > >Control(EC) is to award players that come up with a good character  
 l > idea.  
 l > >It is for players that come up with powers grouped around a SFX.  
 l > > It is to give players that come up with a consistent idea and  
 l > >background a reward.  
 l >  
 l > This might have made sense in 1981, when Hero first appeared. The  
 l > problem  
 l > is that in todays world, it is *expected* that you'll have a  
 l > consistent  
 l > background and powers -- your character should simply be disallowed if  
 l > he  
 l > doesn't.  
 l > ---  
  
  
A character with a consistent background can easily have powers with  
several different special effects...  You don't have to look to hard  
to find characters who are say, mutants, and cybernetically enhanced,  
and master martial artists, for instance...  
  
ECs do tie up a lot of points, so a EC based character is pretty much  
gauranteed to have a single special effect on all his major powers,  
which can be a disadvantage when you come up against someone who is  
resistant to the F/X or has one of those icky +2 advantaged Adjustment  
Powers...  
  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 07 Jan 98 21:17:02 -0800 
Subject: Re: STR Cost (Re: Announ 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 c > > - END Cost is always 1/10pts, instead of 1/10 for movement and 1/5  
 c > >   for everything else.  (I remember *always* having to buy 1/2 END -  
 c > >   ugh!)  
 c >  
 c >    Hey!  here's where we can help 'balance' STR!  Simply require that  
 c > STR pay 1/5 END instead of 1/10!  This will create a limitation to pay  
 c > for all of STRs 'freebie' points, and will effectively raise STR's  
 c > basic  
 c > cost by 25% to make it equal in END cost to other powers!  No, really,  
 c > this is GENIUS!  
 c >  
  
That's actually another thing that gets done in the Heroic Level  
settings...  
  
 c >    On another note, I have to admit that I actually liked the idea  
 c > that  
 c > Reduced END in the old days would just keep halving the cost until  
 c > less  
 c > than 1/2(thus making it 0).  I have always felt that Endurance was a  
 c > vital difference between Hero and most other systems, and that 0END  
 c > abilities should be well paid for.  I strongly believe in the goodness  
 c > of paying END for your powers....  
 c >  
  
It certainly helped keep the lid on Apts...  
  
  
  
 c > > Champions was a great game, and it's amazing how much better  
 c > > it is now!  
 c >  
 c >    And the best thing is that Anal Retentive Pack Rats (as opposed to  
 c > Stainless Steel ones) can collect everything to have an evolutionary  
 c > scale of the game's development!  
  
:)  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 07 Jan 98 21:19:04 -0800 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 c >  
 c >    There seem to be besically two schools of thought Re:Dex and SPD.  
 c > Some folks want Normals to be the benchmark to guage relative values  
 c > heroes, and like to keep values lower.  Others tend to think that the  
 c > very fact of SuperHero-ness puts characters above normals at their  
 c > minimum, and work from there.  
 c >    Admittedly, it can be difficult to be playing a 3 SPD character in  
 c > a  
 c > combat with 5s and 6es running around.  
 c >  
 c >    Like Micheal told Rat, it is all a matter of taste and setting.  
 c > --  
  
Personally, I like playing towards the human end of the DEX/SPD  
scale.  DEX & SPD are expensive, so I have more points for powers  
levels, and skills.  
  
But there is a rationale for having most super-beings having relatively  
high Dex/SPD:  they end up fighting super-humanly fast characters fairly  
often... at that point you just have to stretch....  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 00:19:12 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  e > >  
>  e > Yeah, but how strong are the martial artists ?  15, 18, 20 Strength ?  
>  e > Do their character conceptions really justify them being that strong ?  
>  e > ---  
 
In general, serious martial artists will have a pretty good strength, and 
good physical stats in general.  Weight training and lifting is a standard 
part of most competative MMA (Mixed Martial Art) fighters. 
 
>   
> 15 - 30, in my experience.  Though, martial arts are good for rounding  
> out a character that doesn't have any attack powers that fit their  
> concept (I don't even like martial arts, and I end up taking them  
> fairly often for that reason)  
 
I usually draw a distinction between martial artists and characters with 
martial arts.  Alot of characters might buy martial arts because they are 
so efficient, but martial artists base their whole concept around martial 
arts.  I've played alot of these because I'm heavily into martial arts.:) 
 
TokyoMark 
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 07 Jan 98 21:22:06 -0800 
Subject: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
To: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>  
 e > > I think the main thing that convinced me that the cost isn't really  
 e > broken  
 e > > was the one about whether we saw a rush for brick type characters in  
 e > the  
 e > > games we play. I certainly don't. In fact if there is preponderance  
 e > of  
 e > > anything it tends to be martial artist type characters, perhaps  
 e > there is  
 e > > something broken there!!? :-)  
 e > >  
 e > Yeah, but how strong are the martial artists ?  15, 18, 20 Strength ?  
 e > Do their character conceptions really justify them being that strong ?  
 e > ---  
  
15 - 30, in my experience.  Though, martial arts are good for rounding  
out a character that doesn't have any attack powers that fit their  
concept (I don't even like martial arts, and I end up taking them  
fairly often for that reason)  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 07 Jan 98 21:25:08 -0800 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 > >> On the other hand, buying the characteristics figured from Strength  
 > costs  
 > >> *more* to buy than they would by buying up Strength.  
 >  
 > BG>    There's more to DEX than just the SPD bonuses.  There's  
 > Lightning  
 > BG> Reflexes, OCV, DCV, and Skill Levels with DEX-based Skills, just  
 > for  
 > BG> starters.  
 >  
 > Be careful: most of these are the primary purpose of Dexterity, not  
 > its  
 > secondary effects.  
  
Another thing Hero gives costs breaks on is generalization...  
buying levels with several different types of skills, & your combat  
powers & DCV is very expensive compared to buying up the stats or  
picking up an Overall Level.  So, when you break down DEX into things  
like 'Lighting Reflexes' and combat & skill levels, you coming up  
against that, as well.  
  
Personally, I think it's a good thing... you should be able to take  
generall levels - buying up skill individually would be prohibitively  
expensive.  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: "Mikhael Weitzel" <weitzelg@softdisk.com> 
Subject: unsubscribe 
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:26:29 -0600 
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</x-html>Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:29:47 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Subject: STR: Underpriced? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Darn. It's true. I didn't really care much about this thread, then on a 
whim I pulled out my favorite character, a psionic/thief in a fantasy hero 
campaign. He had  10 STR, and I had already bought *down* stun, so I 
figured this wholeSTR cost thing only applied to superheroes and stuff. 
 
Egad! I could have had 20 STR--for free! Absolutely nothing would have 
changed, but I would have been four times stronger! At other "breakpoints"  
I would have saved 1 or even 2 points. And... I would have ended up with 
more REC.  Darn. Darn darn darn. That hurts. Of *course* my GM won't let 
me suddenly raise my STR *now*. And while 20 might have been excessive, I 
could have at least gotten away with a 15 for my stealth-type. Darn.  
 
I bought up both REC and PD. That was my fatal mistake. I'm not taking any 
sides.... I'm just saying--all this abstract argumentation usually means 
nothing to me, but now this one hit home. We really could have used that 
STR in the last adventure. 
 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 07 Jan 98 21:37:10 -0800 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 t > You know, if you call your _own_ assumptions ridiculous, you're not  
 t > going  
 t > to convince anybody.:) You're right; a -1 for "cannot be used with  
 t > certain other powers" is ridiculous; according to my BBB (pp 114-115),  
 t > it's a -9 Limitation, except you need to pay full price for one of  
 t > those  
 t > powers.  
 t >  
 t > (Which isn't exactly right, but you get my point).  
 t > ---  
  
And, if you don't take that 'limitation?'  
  
ie:  What's the point of buying two attack powers at full price?  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 00:48:30 EST 
Subject: Re: Str Cost 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 98-01-07 19:55:27 EST, you write: 
 
<< > On the one hand you're saying Str should cost more, 
  
 Actually, I've said before that I think dropping the figured 
 characteristics is a cleaner solution than increasing STR. 
 
I agree with you here, that if any change must be made, it shouldn't be made 
to the cost of Str, but to the figured characteristics.  Though I'm really 
reluctant to make a change in this area.  Another list member made a very good 
point however that I hadn't considered before.  While Str adds what some 
people consider too much to the figured characteristics, Dex and Int also do 
the same thing, giving the character higher base rolls for all their Skills 
that are based on Dex or Int. 
  
 > but on the other you're saying it's value or worth respective to other 
 > attacks should remain unchanged.  And that doesn't make sense. 
  
 If STR were _only_ an attack power, it wouldn't make sense. But if you 
 insist that buying 60 STR should continue to get you 66 pts worth of 
 defenses with it, STR is going to need to be more expensive... 
 but the actual physical strength is still really only a 60 AP Power, and 
 GMs should take that into account. 
 
This is where I have a problem.  It isn't only a 60 AP point power.  It's a 
120 AP power. (Or whatever you would boost the cost of Str to)  You have to 
spend 100 (plus 20 base AP) points to get that 60 Str, and you're setting a 
double standard if you hold everybody else strictly to a 60 AP limit.   
 
In Champions, IMHO, the cost of the power/skill/characteristic is the value 
assigned to the importance, or 'power level' of that particular item.  Points 
are just like dollars.  If something is more powerful, it gets a higher point 
cost to reflect that.  So by valuing Str at 2/1 (or whatever), you're saying 
that it's more valuable than Int, or Stun, or Energy Blast, point per point. 
And since the Active Point limit is there to keep everyone around the same 
value of damage or effectiveness, you would need to keep the same limit on Str 
as everything else.     
  
 As an analogy, if a character has an Energy Blast in an Elemental Control, 
 would you add up the total cost of the EC and treat that as the EB's 
 Active Cost for purposes of END use and campaign limits? 
  >> 
 
I'm a little confused at what you're trying to show here.  Though it may just 
be because I'm dead tired. :)  The AP limit applies just to the power(s) that 
is used as the attack.  12d6 EB, wherever it's located, is still a 12d6 EB, 
and a 60 Str punch is still just a 12d6 punch, both have 60 APs.   
 
'Lynx 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Speedster Character so far 
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:49:25 -0800 (PST) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Hello; 
 
	Just want to let everyone know the speedster I've 
been getting advice for is now up on my webpage. 
At http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/cast.html 
Look for Tao Kuai, the first one listed. 
 
(To anyone who knows Mandarin, is Tao Kuai proper? or Kuai Tao? And anyone 
else know how to put a ' thingy on top of the letter 'a' on an english ascii 
keyboard?) 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
Arcady on #HeroRPG, the democratic chat channel for Hero System discusion. 
 (http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/HeroRPG.html) 
 
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 00:59:28 EST 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 98-01-05 23:38:42 EST, you write: 
 
<< In other words, virtually every character in existence (bearing in mind 
 that you actually only need to buy up all of those stats except one). Look 
 at the "Characters" section of the BBB - ignoring the 2 who bought their 
 STR "Doesn't affect Figured", 12 out of the remaining 14 characters would 
 have a lower point cost if they took a higher STR while keeping the rest 
 of their stats the same. Characters who have to pay extra points for the 
 priviledge of a low STR are the rule, not the exception. 
  >> 
 
This isn't true, because you can only buy down one figured characteristic.  So 
if they spend more points on Str, they'd end up with higher stats, and less 
points to spend elsewhere. 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:59:51 -0800 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wednesday, January 07, 1998 10:57 AM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>BG>    There's more to DEX than just the SPD bonuses.  There's 
Lightning 
>BG> Reflexes, OCV, DCV, and Skill Levels with DEX-based Skills, just 
for 
>BG> starters. 
> 
>Be careful: most of these are the primary purpose of Dexterity, not 
its 
>secondary effects. 
 
 
If I created a power whose primary purpose included abilities that 
could be bought under the present system readily, but which cost only 
half as much using the new power, you would scream bloody murder. 
Primary vs Secondary has nothing to do with whether or not it has a 
balanced cost. 
 
If every one of the freebies you get with STR were primary effects of 
STR, would you then declare it balanced? 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 22:02:32 -0800 
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@sprynet.com> 
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com 
Organization: None 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> ********* 
 
  okay, here I am jumping in a little late but with my two cents prominately 
flashing in front of me like a certain star stangled hero's shield (only, I gues 
there's two of them...)at any rate, I'd like to point out to everyone that this is 
all my opinion (just like everything here) and that rabid disagreement with me is 
allowed but won't necesarily be listened to. 
 
Only in games does balance seem to be an important factor. Bricks in comics are 
often super fast as well (Superman and all his clones in DC and Spiderman the 
shinging example in Marvel). To pigeon hole every one with super human strength as 
a lumbering brute is pretty silly.... 
 
And another thing while I am at it....why do all player charaters have to be equal 
in combat? I'm not saying that you all think that they do, but I sometimes get 
that impression. Just like writers of comics need to figure a way to make all the 
charaters seem important, so does a gm. 
 
From: "Matt Korth" <korthmat@cps.msu.edu> 
Organization: I don't think so, Tim. 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 02:03:06 -0400 
Subject: Re: Godzilla any tips?? 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> >  8 10 Mental Defense 
>    Should be much higher, his non-human brain 
> functions would make controling him nearly 
> imposable.  Plus if this is for a super hero game 
> you wouldn't want and egoist makig the big G it's 
> slave.  Menton "Look Doctor I have a new pet." Dr Destroyer "Uhhh, yes, 
> very nice, let's see, sick him on the Champions base." 
 
Or just use the (admittedly optional) rules regarding classes of minds  
from the _Ultimate Mentalist_ book--to wit, Menton's abilities are defined  
by default to act against human (and human-like) minds.  Since Godzilla's  
mind is an animal mind, Menton would have no effect on him. 
 
Of course, if you don't want to use anything from UM, then you'd have to  
raise Godzilla's MD. 
 
> >  86 40" Running (Radiation),has turn    
> >    mode,0 END(+1/2)                  0 
> If you are useing the scale hexes combined with his growth this is way 
> too much movement.   
 
Under 4th Edition rules, Growth does not add any additional movement.   
Reach, yes; movement, no. 
-- 
korthmat@cps.msu.edu   http://www.cps.msu.edu/~korthmat 
*** People who send me UBE/UCE will be crucified. *** 
"Believe me, Mike, I calculated the odds of this succeeding 
versus the odds that I was doing something incredibly stupid... 
and I went ahead anyway."  --Crow, _MST3K: The Movie_ 
 
From: KaosTym <KaosTym@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:06:59 EST 
Subject: Godzilla any tips?? 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
     GODZILLA ( POST 1985 - Pre Destroyah) 
   115 Strength                        
   10 Dexterity                                       
   60 Constitution      
   70 Body                
    7 Intelligence        
    8 Ego                   
   60 Presence          
    4 Comeliness        
   40 Physical Defens   
   30 Energy Defense   
    3 Speed             
   40 Recovery          
  120 Endurance        
  170 Stun          
 
 
DISADVANTAGES         BASE: 100+PTS     
Physical Lim,"Animal             25 
 Intelligence",all the time,       
 fully                                  
Berserk,"When takes Body",very   35   
 common,occur 14-,recover 8-             
Hunted,"G Force ",less           20      
 powerful,non-combat influence,       
 harsh,appear 14-                       
Rep,"Radioactive Reptile",occur  20      
 14-,extreme reputation            
Distinctive,"Radioactive         15 
Kaiju Bonus                     969 
                    
 PTS             POWERS              END 
 140 21 LVLS Growth (stats already       
     included),Always On(-1/2),0 END     
     Persistent(+1)                    0 
 264 8D6 RKA,"Radioactive Breath Lim     
     :  last 2d6 vs. Inanimate           
     objects",-1/2 Var Lim(-1/4),Area    
     Effect(+1 1/2),cone,x4 Increased    
     Area,1/2 END(+1/4)               16 
  75 20D6 HA,"Tail Sweep",1/2 END        
     (+1/4)                            3 
  8 10 Mental Defense                   
 64 6D6 Absorption (Radiation),         
    "Radiation",4 Max Increase,vs       
    SFX (all powers),Always On(-1/2)    
  86 40" Running (Radiation),has turn    
    mode,0 END(+1/2)                  0 
  40 75% Damage Reduction (PD)          
     (Radiation),resistant,Always On   
     (-1/2)                             
  40 75% Damage Reduction (ED)           
    (Radiation),resistant,Always On     
    (-1/2)                          
  25 +38" SWIM (Radiation),doesn't       
     add to figured                     
  22 11" KB Resist (Radiation)           
 
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:20:13 EST 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 98-01-07 16:17:35 EST, you write: 
 
<< 	I'd have to disagree again.  RPs and APs are not enough to 
 compare.  DCs are a different measure.  The recent argument that STR at 2 
 pts per die would be ranked differently DC-wise is bull.   Look at DC 
 effectiveness.  Even though  an HA can fit 20 dice into 60 AP, that's 20 
 DCs.  Way more than I'd allow.  Paying 100 pts for 60 pts of STR still 
 only gives 12 DCs.  Thbe rest of the cost is for STR's other varied 
 effects. >> 
 
Damage Class is based on Active Points divided by 5.  HSR pg158.   20 Dice of 
HA is 60 AP equals 12 DC.  In a 2/1 Str system, 60 Str is 120 AP equals 24 DC. 
 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 00:35:28 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Subject: Re: Godzilla any tips?? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>    8 Ego   Depending on your source material this should be at least 10, 
maybe              higher.                  
>  8 10 Mental Defense    Should be much higher, his non-human brain 
functions would                           make controling him nearly 
imposable.  Plus if this is for a                         super hero game 
you wouldn't want and egoist makig the big G                         it's 
slave.   
Menton "Look Doctor I have a new pet." 
Dr Destroyer "Uhhh, yes, very nice, let's see, sick him on the Champions base." 
 
>  86 40" Running (Radiation),has turn    
>    mode,0 END(+1/2)                  0 
If you are useing the scale hexes combined with his growth this is way too 
much movement.   
 
All in all a very good work up... 
Michael 
Rising Force Publications 
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine... 
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
"You have never lived until you have almost died.  
And for those who fight for it, life has a 
flavor the protected never know"  
- anonymous 
 
From: Fvigil <Fvigil@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:35:33 EST 
Subject: Re: Characteristics Max Disadvantage 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 98-01-03 20:40:15 EST, redlion@voicenet.com writes: 
 
> An open question to the mailing list:  Has anyone ever experimented 
>  with enforcing the Normal Characteristic Maxima disadvantage for all 
>  characters in a superhero campaign, regardless of origin?  I can see 
>  a GM trying this in a campaign where he wants to enforce a grittier, 
>  more street-level feel, or where he wants to better define the 
>  boundary between the merely human and the superhuman. 
> 
>  This might be a way to deal with the seeming cheapness of high STR 
>  for the benefits it provides, along with curtailing the stat 
>  inflation of so many characters where every Daredevil or Batman 
>  wannabe has a superhuman DEX and a PD that makes Muhammad Ali's look 
>  wimpy.  Some changes in power costs may now become essential or at 
>  least more strongly warranted for the sake of balance, though, such 
>  as a 5-point cost per 1d6 of HtH Attack or 10 points per 1d6 of Aid. 
>   
>  Do any other powers seem underpriced with such a change?  How 
>  carefully does the GM have to monitor the use of characteristics as 
>  powers, especially when placed into a power framework?  Do characters 
>  not dependent on high stats gain too great an edge? 
 
I've done this in my current campaign which has been running every week or so 
for around 5 years now.  It has been very sucessful for me.  For one thing it 
keeps the characters in a slightly tighter range for most characteristics - 
with the variations being primarily focused on character specialties.  I find 
this especially advantageous on Dex (now 6 pts a pop after 20 helping to 
contain OCV and DCV) and Speed (at 20 points a pop, where no individual wants 
to play a hero who is more than a couple of points slower than the others). 
 
It has also helped on keeping the Strength cost in line.  A 50 STR costs 70 
points (10 free + 10 at 1/pt + 30 at 2/pt) which I feal balances out some of 
the other extras STR gives.  (I should point out that I don't allow ECs as I 
feal they have no game effect beyond shaving points)  One problem with using 
NCM to keeps STR costs in line is powers that give free STR (Density Increase 
+ Growth) but at least they don't give figured characteristics.  My solution 
is to 1/2 the extra STR given once the Character has reached the NCM. 
 
>  Unlike the 
>  description of the Normal Characteristic Maxima disadvantage, 
>  movement rates above the normal maxima aren't penalized, as they are 
>  really covered under the Running and Swimming powers. 
 
I also do not enforce the NCM on running.  
   
>  To balance the higher cost of stats that affect skills, I'd change 
>  the formula for skill and characteristic rolls to 8 + (CHA/3), as 
>  I've seen done in at least one PBEM campaign.  That gives the human 
>  max in a stat a base 15- roll and a 29 stat a base 18-, so a 
>  character doesn't have to buy his INT into the 40's to think like a 
>  Mr. Fantastic-type supergenius. 
 
  I have not found this to be needed. 
 
   Fernando 
 
From: KaosTym <KaosTym@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:48:37 EST 
Subject: Re: Godzilla any tips?? 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
The Mental Defense was justified as this : Godzilla Vs. Space Godzilla, GFORCE 
(Anti-Godzilla Force) using telepathy controlled Godzilla... making it easy 
for them kinda to do so.. 
 
the running.. represents his huge stride 
 
From: Fvigil <Fvigil@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 02:21:09 EST 
Subject: Re: stun lotto/is it rea 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 98-01-04 23:53:41 EST, filkhero@usa.net writes: 
 
> Normals are frequently casually killed by supervillains in 
>  comics. The normal dies with a fair degree of reliability. In 
>  Champions, a completely average normal hit with a 12d6 EB will die 
>  only slightly more than half the time, without optional rules or GM 
>  help. 
 
   Actually they die almost all the time.  12D EB averages 12 Body. 
Subtracting the normal's 2 PD leaves 10, which equals the average normal's 
Body.  So, this would mean they would die only about 1/2 the time IF it was 
not fo good old Knockback.  The average KB will be 5" (12 - 2D) so the normal 
ends up at -3 Body  - Dead without medical attention. 
 
   Fernando 
 
From: Fvigil <Fvigil@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 02:59:54 EST 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
ratinox writes: 
 
> Frameworks reward a good character concept. 
 
   Say What?  MPs have no concept requirement.  Nor do many VPPs.  As for ECs, 
well we used to play a game around here where the idea was to try and name 3 
powers which were unlikely to be seen together, and then the other person had 
to come up with an EC "concept" to justify them.  It was seen as a joke just 
how easy it was.   
 
   By the way, does Superman have an EC of Kryptonian powers?  If so could not 
the original authors have decided that Kryptonians had another random 
collection of powers - any powers? 
 
   Fernando  
 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 98 09:20:29 GMT 
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk 
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness) 
Subject: Tying up the strength threads.....  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:52 PM 7/1/98, Curt Hicks wrote: 
>Yeah, but how strong are the martial artists ?  15, 18, 20 Strength ? 
>Do their character conceptions really justify them being that strong ? 
 
At 02:50 PM 7/1/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   In many cases, yes, or darn close.  Many real life martial also do some 
>extensive weight training, and while 20 is arguably excessive even in a 
>superhero world (where they have to be prepared to fight "true" 
>superhumans), it does reflect the tendency of martial artists to go beyond 
>mere general fitness. 
 
At 08:46 AM 7/1/98 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>Right on the money.  The effect of cheap strength to look for is not "is 
>everyone playing bricks" but "how many *non-bricks* have higher than 
>expected STR"? (Say, like Seeker, Quantum, Cheshire Cat, and El Muerto  
Obscuro). 
 
At 09:22 PM 7/1/98 -0800, Opal wrote: 
>15 - 30, in my experience.  Though, martial arts are good for rounding  
>out a character that doesn't have any attack powers that fit their  
>concept (I don't even like martial arts, and I end up taking them  
>fairly often for that reason)  
 
Tricky argument huh? Obviously the focus is on strength and its cost but I  
asked the martial arts question as a joke but it seems to me that it is  
perhaps a closely related topic. 
 
Curt and Vox ask how many martial artists take higher than justified  
strength to benefit their secondary characteristics for free and use that to  
justify their anti strength argument while Bob reckons that 20 isn't really  
stretching the case too far. Opal however rocks the boat by claiming to use  
martial arts to aid the combat effectiveness of non-martial artists. 
 
I think the points saved by martial artists having STR 20 instead of a more  
realistic 14 or 15 are not an issue, nor are the benefits given by martial  
arts to people whose concept does not have them had enough training to  
justify it. 
 
The whole strength thing again can come to definition. I've lsot track of  
who posted what on how DEX actually contributes more to the game than just  
combat and speed and if this is taken into account then you get more points  
worth than you paid for. 
 
At 03:29 PM 7/1/98, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>STR is different; with STR, you get things which aren't directly a part of 
>STR's definition (the amount of HTH damage you can do and the amount you 
>can lift, carry or throw), and the value of those things is more than the 
>cost of the STR itself. In effect, the actual physical strength costs 
>nothing. 
 
At 04:26 PM 7/1/98, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>Because skill levels are effectively just characteristics with a 
>limitation "only for certain skills". A bonus to DEX-based skills, for 
>example, isn't something you get _along with_ DEX; it _is_ DEX. 
 
But it is also a bonus that comes along naturally because you are dextrous.  
An increased endurance recovery and durability are usually gained with an  
increase in strength. Why do martial artisits do weight training?? Not just  
because it will improve their damage capability but because it helps their  
stamina, and their capacity to recieve damage. I'd be careful about trying  
to dissociate too many things from strength without strengthening the case  
for dissociating many of the skills from characterisitics too. 
 
I'd say that if there are people out there benefitting from a misuse of  
strength then rather than changing the costs or the whole basis of figured  
characteristics that there should be a looking glass on STR, and perhaps on  
CON as well.  
 
Perhaps a fifth edition should include a section on standard abuses of the  
system?? 
 
Anyone want to write that one??  :-) 
 
 
Stephen 
 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 98 09:23:43 GMT 
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk 
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness) 
Subject: Re: NOT Re:The  STR & HA Worms 
Cc: champ-l@org.omg 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:52 PM 7/1/98, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>> This is a toughy actually because the maze stuff is often more effective the 
>> more intelligent you are, whereas your construct will work better the less 
>> intelligent you are...... 
> 
>	Huh?  Oh.  It works better if you're smart.  I don't recal it 
>working like that in AD&D -- a higher INT resulted in raster excape from 
>the maze.  But then again, what's AD&D as a source? 
 
Now you have me puzzling!! If you had asked me where I remembered that from  
I would have said AD&D but perhaps I'm wrong. I know that it sounds right to  
me, the more intelligent you are the easier it is to trap you into  
overthinking, and that it is useless on beings such as dogs etc. Perhaps I'm  
thinking RQ Befuddle or something. 
Perhaps I should check my facts before I post!! ;-) 
 
 
>			-Tim Gilberg 
 
 
Stephen 
 
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford) 
Subject: Re: STR: Underpriced? 
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 10:40:27 GMT 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:29:47 -0600 (CST), you wrote: 
 
>Darn. It's true. I didn't really care much about this thread, then on a 
>whim I pulled out my favorite character, a psionic/thief in a fantasy hero 
>campaign. He had  10 STR, and I had already bought *down* stun, so I 
>figured this wholeSTR cost thing only applied to superheroes and stuff. 
> 
>Egad! I could have had 20 STR--for free! Absolutely nothing would have 
>changed, but I would have been four times stronger! At other "breakpoints"  
>I would have saved 1 or even 2 points. And... I would have ended up with 
>more REC.  Darn. Darn darn darn. That hurts. Of *course* my GM won't let 
>me suddenly raise my STR *now*. And while 20 might have been excessive, I 
>could have at least gotten away with a 15 for my stealth-type. Darn.  
> 
>I bought up both REC and PD. That was my fatal mistake. I'm not taking any 
>sides.... I'm just saying--all this abstract argumentation usually means 
>nothing to me, but now this one hit home. We really could have used that 
>STR in the last adventure. 
> 
But what reason could you have given for your thief to be one of the 
strongest people on the planet? Adding STR just because "the point 
buyback allows me to get it for free" is the excuse rules-rapists use 
to justify getting away with this. 
 
IMO, all this argument about "STR is broken" is silly. Either your 
character should have a 20 STR or not, or a 30 PD or not. If it does, 
pay the points (one way or another). If not, then don't give him a 
higher STR just because you can get away with it. 
 
John Lansford 
 
http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/intro.htm 
 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 98 11:42:33 GMT 
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk 
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness) 
Subject: Re: STR: Underpriced? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:40 AM 8/1/98 GMT, John Lansford wrote: 
>IMO, all this argument about "STR is broken" is silly. Either your 
>character should have a 20 STR or not, or a 30 PD or not. If it does, 
>pay the points (one way or another). If not, then don't give him a 
>higher STR just because you can get away with it. 
 
Gosh John, you can't say things like that!! before you know it people will  
be saying things _just_ because they make sense!!!! And _then_ where will  
the list be?? 
 
:-) 
 
>John Lansford 
 
 
Stephen 
 
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 07:18:47 -0700 
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>  
> At 12:52 PM 1/7/98 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote: 
> >Yeah, but how strong are the martial artists ?  15, 18, 20 Strength ? 
> >Do their character conceptions really justify them being that strong ? 
>  
> Right on the money.  The effect of cheap strength to look for is not "is 
> everyone playing bricks" but "how many *non-bricks* have higher than 
> expected STR"? (Say, like Seeker, Quantum, Cheshire Cat, and El Muerto Obscuro). 
>  
> -- 
 
To draw a tenous parallel; in an old book "how to draw comics the Marvel 
way" they have a picture of a fairly muscular young man, drawn fairly 
accurately. Then they place him next to Cap. The fairly muscular young 
man looks like a _wimp_. The book goes on to state that in drawing 
comics one must exagerate such things because those being drawn are 
Super heroes.. not just run of the mill heroes. 
 
In most cases I think that the higher than expected strength on a non 
brick character is just that; the player wanting his _super_ hero to be 
better than average. It's done out of character ego, and player desire 
for color; not just for 'point-crockiness'. (note earier in this 
paragraph I did say 'in most cases'). 
 
When I look over the characters that I have built, both PC and NPC when 
someone has a 15 or 20 STR and doesn't strictly 'deserve' it I think to 
when I built that particular individual and the reason is usually to 
make them 'better' than someone at a lower STR. 
 
But then, this is merely flavor and style, much like the discussion on 
dex and speed occupying other thread pieces. 
 
 
--  
-Mhoram 
Why is it a penny for your thoughts, but you have to put your 
 two cents in. Somebody's makin' a penny somewhere. -Stephen Wright 
 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:29:35 -0500 
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org> 
Subject: STR: Underpriced? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> But what reason could you have given for your thief to be one of the 
> strongest people on the planet? Adding STR just because "the point 
> buyback allows me to get it for free" is the excuse rules-rapists use 
> to justify getting away with this. 
 
1) Not all thieves are physical wimps -- even in D&D. 
 
2) Are you saying you couldn't come up with a concept involving a thief who's 
really really strong? I could think of some interesting plot hooks right off 
the bat.  
 
3) No one should be /penalized/ by the rules by having a weaker concept cost 
more points.  
 
> IMO, all this argument about "STR is broken" is silly. Either your 
> character should have a 20 STR or not, or a 30 PD or not. If it does, 
> pay the points (one way or another). If not, then don't give him a 
> higher STR just because you can get away with it. 
 
Cost will affect characters: not all the time, but a lot of the time.  
 
 
IMO, the STR cost problem is worse in Fantasy Hero than in Champions, because 
the range is smaller and a couple points of STR can make a lot of difference. 
 
Geoff Speare 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 06:57:13 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wednesday, January 07, 1998 11:19 AM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
> 
>F> In real life, Bruce Lee was so fast that he slowed down for the 
>F> camera, so that everyone could get a good look at what he did. 
> 
>It makes good press copy, I will admit.  But *I* can snap my fist out 
and 
>back so fast that it appears a blur to a camera rolling at 16-24fps, 
and 
>unless you are crippled you can do the same. 
 
 
True. The problem was not that the punches looked blurred, the problem 
was that his overall motion was so quick that he looked like the film 
was sped up, and many of his punches weren't even clearly seen. 
 
Boxers fight at full speed on film all the time, but boxers do not 
look fake when on TV or film as opposed to live. Bruce Lee did.The 
problem was not that the punches looked blurred, because most fast 
motion on a film is somewhat blurred, the problem was that his overall 
motion was so quick that he looked like the film was sped up, and many 
of his punches weren't even clearly seen. 
 
Remember the "Ghost Punch" from one of Muhammed Ali's bouts? People at 
_ringside_ couldn't agree as to whether or not the punch was even 
thrown, even though the other boxer went down. The film itself doesn't 
settle the matter without a frame by frame examination. Even then, all 
you see is a blur approaching the jaw and one leaving it. If you watch 
the film at full speed, you can't be sure the punch was thrown. 
 
Such blows are not common in boxing, even the very fast bouts of 
lightweight world championships, but they were common with Bruce Lee. 
 
>[...] 
> 
>F> According to the bodyguard, it took about three seconds, tops, for 
the 
>F> whole thing. 
> 
>Yup... a real fight will last about that long.  One solid hit to the 
head 
>and down he goes with a concussion.  Doesn't take more than a second 
to 
>connect once or twice. 
 
Sure, you _can_ win that fast. However, between skilled fighters in 
good shape, it can take a lot longer, and usually does. This isn't a 
case of someone being blindsided, this is a case of two skilled 
fighter facing each other, expecting to be attacked. 
 
Jiu-jitsu is a serious and effective fighting art. Jiu-jistu matches 
(not judo, these are much more brutal) do not take three seconds. 
Neither do bouts in most martial arts, no matter how serious. 
 
 
Ever see the Vale Tudo? How about the Ultimate Fighting championships? 
The Vale Tudo has been running in Brazil for 70 years. The idea is to 
recreate a street fight, without anyone getting hit with chairs or 
bottles.Two men get into a ring and attempt to beat each other into 
submission. There are some conventions, like no eye gouging, but very 
few. 
 
Kidney punch? Legal. Kick the guy in the kneecaps? Legal. Jiu-jitsu 
joint breakers, punches to the throat, all legal. 
 
The bouts are frequently not timed. Nevertheless, they often last for 
fifteen or twenty minutes. These people are serious, and are highly 
skilled fighters. The most popular fighting arts are jiu-jutsu 
variations, though everything from Sambo to Greco-Roman wrestling is 
employed. 
 
Even if for some reason you do not consider these people to be among 
the greatest fighters on Earth, it is definitely true that they are 
skilled fighters serious about hurting each other, but their bouts do 
_not_ last three seconds. 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:07:28 EST 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 98-01-06 21:47:44 EST, ratinox@peorth.gweep.net wrote:  
 
> >>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes: 
>   
>  MS> Meaning what?  All the games I've been in were horribly over-powered? 
>  MS> I see nothing wrong with Ben having a 4 SPD and an 18 DEX.  I mean, he 
>  MS> usually takes on gobs of goons and comes out okay. 
>   
>  He takes them on with durability and sweeping punches -- OCV skill levels 
>  rather than agility.  An 18 DEX is what girl that has been performing 
>  gymnastics or ballet for the past 10 years has.  Or, at least, given Hero's 
>  description and range for what is "normal" this is the case. 
 
OTOH there's no reason why a big strong guy couldn't have an 18 DEX, even in 
the real world (Michael Jordan, for example). IMHO, "jockishness" implies both 
an above-average STR *and* above-average DEX.  
 
Personally I'd rate Ben Grimm at SPD 3 DEX 14 - and note that he's *not* at 
the minimum SPD/DEX for a brick - he is a jockish type (remember, he was a 
college football hero). One could make a case for SPD 4 DEX 18, but I'd take 
that as implying a campaign with somewhat inflated SPD and DEX scores. If SPD 
4 DEX 18 is given as the *minimum* for a brick, then Ben Grim would be higher 
than this - something like SPD 4-5 DEX 20-23+ - and I'd ask Ghost@softfarm.com 
to lend me some of his pills :-) 
 
Erol K. Bayburt 
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 07:11:30 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wednesday, January 07, 1998 12:42 PM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> Now to disagree with you a bit: 
> 
>> Gross points vs net points? Do you mean Active vs. Real? 
> 
> Definately not.  I think he means a 250-pt book character vs a 
>well-designed 250-pt homemade character.  Assuming the same AP and RP 
and 
>DC limitations.  While the points are the same, the effectiveness is 
>generall not.  To be fair, this is not unique to Hero.  Most systems 
that 
>are non-random in character generation have inequities in effeciency. 
>Look at Battletech's Book Mechs vs Home Made Mechs. 
 
 
Hmm. I've never heard of that refered to as gross points vs net 
points. How would you measure the difference in points? 
 
>> Active points are a measure of the power of a character's powers, 
not 
>> a measure of usefulness. If two powers both have a 30 pt Real cost, 
>> and one has a 30 pt Active and the other a 60 pt active, the second 
>> power is not necessarily a better power, but its more forceful-- 
more 
>> 'powerful'. 
> 
> I'd have to disagree again.  RPs and APs are not enough to 
>compare.  DCs are a different measure.  The recent argument that STR 
at 2 
>pts per die would be ranked differently DC-wise is bull.   Look at DC 
>effectiveness.  Even though  an HA can fit 20 dice into 60 AP, that's 
20 
>DCs.  Way more than I'd allow.  Paying 100 pts for 60 pts of STR 
still 
>only gives 12 DCs.  Thbe rest of the cost is for STR's other varied 
>effects. 
 
 
Certainly. I added that comment about DC to a different part of this 
thread. I was refering to the same power, in one case limited, in the 
other not. I was assuming that "gross points" was Active and "net 
points" were real and trying to show that the frequent use of both of 
them was not because of an imbalance in the system. 
 
> Note, however, this would make any advantage on STR too expensive 
>for its actualy value.  AP on STR just wouldn't be worth it.  Another 
nice 
>arguement to keep STR where it is. 
 
True, and a good one. Given the general take on this thread, however, 
I think that proving that it is worth its points is the only way to 
go. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 09:26:54 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Godzilla any tips?? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:35 AM 1/8/98 -0600, Michael Nunn wrote: 
>>    8 Ego   Depending on your source material this should be at least 10, 
>maybe              higher.                  
>>  8 10 Mental Defense     
>Should be much higher, his non-human brain functions would make controling 
> him nearly imposable.   
 
That would be represented by using the "class of mind" rules from The 
Ultimate Mentalist (see, Tim, I don't think everything Long wrote was bad :]). 
 
> Plus if this is for a super hero game you wouldn't want and egoist makig 
> the big G it's slave.   
> Menton "Look Doctor I have a new pet." 
> Dr Destroyer "Uhhh, yes, very nice, let's see, sick him on the Champions 
> base." 
 
Why not?  You've just described a classic use of the beast -- that exact 
tactic has been done more than once in the movies (GODZILLA V. MONSTER ZERO 
and DESTROY ALL MONSTERS, for example). 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 09:26:57 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:18 AM 1/8/98 -0700, Curtis Gibson wrote: 
>To draw a tenous parallel; in an old book "how to draw comics the Marvel 
>way" they have a picture of a fairly muscular young man, drawn fairly 
>accurately. Then they place him next to Cap. The fairly muscular young 
>man looks like a _wimp_. The book goes on to state that in drawing 
>comics one must exagerate such things because those being drawn are 
>Super heroes.. not just run of the mill heroes. 
 
This *is* a tenuous parallel, because even Cap -- with his colossally 
impressive and exaggerated musculature -- is explicitly a 20 STR (800 lb. 
maximum).  Created by a HERO player, he'd probably have a 30. :/ 
 
>In most cases I think that the higher than expected strength on a non 
>brick character is just that; the player wanting his _super_ hero to be 
>better than average. It's done out of character ego, and player desire 
>for color; not just for 'point-crockiness'. (note earier in this 
>paragraph I did say 'in most cases'). 
 
I have no objections to being higher than average.  I have an objection to 
being higher than MAXIMUM, when we're still talking about ostensibly 
"normal" humans. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 09:27:10 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Wish: Benchmarks (was: A Sample Character) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:51 PM 1/8/98 -0500, aregalad@miami.edu wrote: 
>DRAGONFLY'S ARGUMENT FOR BENCHMARKS 
 
Yeah, I realized after everyone had a chance to quibble on my original wish 
list that I'd forgotten at least two significant wishes.  One was 
benchmarks; the other was to give INT a value and meaning more in keeping 
with its description by using INT, not EGO, for determining mental combat 
initiative and changing the SPD formula to (DEX+INT)/10 instead of (DEX/10)+1. 
 
>Now lets take INT. The only in-play significance of INT is INT and PER 
>rolls. If you use the same breakdown that you do with DEX, you will have 
>ranges that don't do anything. Not good, IMO. SO...to make INT benchmarks 
>work, they would have to look something like this. 
> 
>Everyman:	8-12 
>Competent:	13-17 
>Heroic:		18-22 
>Incredible:	23-27 
>Legendary:	28-32 
> 
>I know people who prefer low stats will look at this and say "CUCAMANGA!! 
>This is obscene!," but its the only way that it makes sense to me. Trust 
>me, I tried to make it as close to 20 as possible, but it didn't work. The 
>only way around this in MY mind is to invent more uses for INT. 
 
Well, yes, but inventing more uses for INT would be a good thing -- either 
that, or find a way to increase the granularity of the system (I personally 
like Erol K. Bayburt's "Percentile HERO" rules, but I wouldn't recommend it 
for a 5th Edition revision). 
 
>PARTING THOUGHTS 
> 
>1) Hi Vox, Hi Phantom. Drop me a line! 
 
It's the Champions List and Lonely Hearts Club! :] 
 
>2) I'm with Vox, Phantom and Rat on the DEX/SPD debate. The ranges they 
>are pushing for have worked beautifully in my running campaigns and I 
>think they are far more realistic as well as true to the genre. 
 
Screw the genre.  I think they're more honest TO THE GAME.  All Phantom did 
for his own campaign was say "They're calling a 10 average and 20 maximum 
for humans? Okay, let's see what we get, then!" 
 
>4) Someone mentioned that they agreed with Vox's logic, but disagreed with 
>changing longstanding HERO convention. Why bother with a 5th Edition then? 
>The point of new editions is to modify the system towards perfection after 
>continued playtesting (which has gone on for over 15 years now). 
 
Well, yes, but for the record, VOX agrees with Vox's logic but disagrees 
with changing longstanding convention -- at least, I'm not going to scream 
at Hero Games to correct the cost of STR. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 09:27:13 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Wish: Benchmarks (was: A Sample Character) 
Cc: Hero System Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:58 PM 1/8/98 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Thu, 8 Jan 1998 aregalad@miami.edu wrote: 
>> benchmarks, but it has two problems. The first of these is that HERO 
>> asserts that characters that are normal humans by conception can buy 
>> stats above the listed "maxima" - they just have to pay double for it. 
>> Since no other limits exist, a patient player will buy a 40 DEX for a 
>> "normal human" and claim that he is still within conception because he 
>> paid double for it.  
> 
>Except someone with NCM _can't_ buy any primary characteristic beyond 30. 
 
HELL-o! Where in Samhaine did you get this idea?!? I don't ever recall 
reading ANY absolute limit on buying characteristics over NCM -- they just 
cost more. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
From: "Roger A. Wesson, Jr." <uraeus@bunt.com> 
Subject: Converting Movement to Real World (" to kph) 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:47:56 +0100 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
  OK, I was wondering if anyone out there has developed a chart 
that converts Movement speeds (with and without NCM) to a real 
world value (kph or mph).  Either value, mph/kph is fine by me, I 
am very familar with converting betwenthe two. 
 
  I find this really helpful when recreating a character from a concept. 
 
"I want BusBoy, NY's fastest waiter to have an average combat move 
but a NCM equal to the average speed of a city bus (say 35 to 40mph) 
What should his Running be and with what NCM multiple?" 
  
  I know that I could easily use Exel to create a little program to do 
this. But, if anyone already has this produced in a text file or on a 
Web page, it saves me that much time. 
 
    Thanks, 
    -Roger 
 
 
 
**************************************************************** 
"We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a 
million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire  
works of Shakespeare.  Now, thanks to the Internet,  
we know this is not true." 
             - Professor Robert Wilensky 
**************************************************************** 
 
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 10:57:08 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@omg.org" 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>OTOH there's no reason why a big strong guy couldn't have an 18 DEX, even in 
>the real world (Michael Jordan, for example). IMHO, "jockishness" implies both 
>an above-average STR *and* above-average DEX. 
>Erol K. Bayburt 
 
	Ahhh... But even with a high DEX *and* STR, could the "jocks" play 
baseball using the HERO system? 
 
From: "Roger A. Wesson, Jr." <uraeus@bunt.com> 
Subject: RE: NOT Re:The  STR & HA Worms 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:05:44 +0100 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
  I had intended on the effect that higher INT would allow for quicker resolution 
of the 'maze'.  However, your comment about it not affecting dogs, etc, does 
bring up a good point. 
  I think I will use Mental Illusions power alone as suggested by Kevin McClain. 
 
  My current plan is to use this construct: 
 
	xd6 Mental Illusions, AoE rad, No Range, INT roll used to disbelieve 
			    , Does not affect beings with INT 3- 
 
  And perhaps also the Reduced By Range limitation to lower the real cost 
because it will require a high MI power to consistently overwhelm normals 
(EGO+30 for no interaction with real world). 
 
  Again, any comments and suggestions welcome, and thanks to those who 
have already responded. 
 
  -Roger 
 
---------- 
From: 	Stephen McGinness[SMTP:smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk] 
Sent: 	Thursday, January 08, 1998 10:23 AM 
 
At 02:52 PM 7/1/98, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>> This is a toughy actually because the maze stuff is often more effective the 
>> more intelligent you are, whereas your construct will work better the less 
>> intelligent you are...... 
> 
>	Huh?  Oh.  It works better if you're smart.  I don't recal it 
>working like that in AD&D -- a higher INT resulted in raster excape from 
>the maze.  But then again, what's AD&D as a source? 
 
Now you have me puzzling!! If you had asked me where I remembered that from  
I would have said AD&D but perhaps I'm wrong. I know that it sounds right to  
me, the more intelligent you are the easier it is to trap you into  
overthinking, and that it is useless on beings such as dogs etc. Perhaps I'm  
thinking RQ Befuddle or something. 
Perhaps I should check my facts before I post!! ;-) 
 
 
>			-Tim Gilberg 
 
 
Stephen 
 
 
 
From: "Roger A. Wesson, Jr." <uraeus@bunt.com> 
Subject: Military HEROs 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:18:10 +0100 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
  I was just going thru the 175, or so, messages from the list from the 
last couple of days, and someone mentioned that they had previous 
military experience (sorry I don't remember who, and I *really* don't 
want to go thru all those messages again!  8^P). 
  Anyway, I was wondering who else on the list is military, currently 
or previously? 
  I am a currently in the  Air Force, with plans to separate this summer. 
 
  If you don't want to take up list bandwidth with replies on this, please 
send to my personal address. 
  -Roger 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 12:20:32 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: STR Cost (Re: Announ 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Captain Spith wrote: 
 
>    Hey!  here's where we can help 'balance' STR!  Simply require that 
> STR pay 1/5 END instead of 1/10!  This will create a limitation to pay 
> for all of STRs 'freebie' points, and will effectively raise STR's basic 
> cost by 25% to make it equal in END cost to other powers!  No, really, 
> this is GENIUS! 
 
Hmm. So, under the current system, if I take an extra 10 STR, it reduces 
my characteristic cost by 1, and if I need to use that extra STR it'll 
cost me 1 END. With this change, if I take an extra 10 STR, it reduces my 
characteristic cost by 1, and if I need to use that extra STR it'll cost 
me 2 END. 
 
To be honest, I don't see how that fixes much of anything. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 12:24:31 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Characteristics Max Disadvantage 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Captain Spith wrote: 
 
>    First of all, lemme state that I do NOT believe in nearly any of the 
> claims abounding that STR is horribly underpriced (which people kept 
> typing in as 'overpriced') or that ECs are meaningless freebie points, 
> etc.  I simply stay out of the discussions because nobody is ever going 
> to change their minds, 
 
Nonsense. Do you think I sprang from the womb with my opinions on such 
matters as the Great Linked Debate and the STR problem fully-formed? 
People on the list convinced me. 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: more thoughts on bleeding 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 08:32:32 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wednesday, January 07, 1998 2:37 PM, mcallahan wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
>The chance to stop bleeding should get worse, the worse you are 
injured, 
>If you are bleeding at the 4d6 level you've taken at least 16 body, 
at 
>that point the chances to just stop bleeding should be nil (16 body 
>would be the average roll for a 4 1/2 d6 killing attack, this is an 
>attack bigger than a law rocket). With these bleeding rules and 
average 
>shot from a 1d6 killing attack (small hand gun, knife) will probably 
>stop bleeding, a hit from a 2d6 killing attack (big gun, rifle, 
sword) 
>might stop bleeding, and a hit from anything bigger (.50 cal, law 
>rocket) will kill a character dead (unless a paramedic helps him). 
This 
>would seem to be an appropriate level of lethality. 
 
I like it. It adds a lot to the optional "reality rules". 
 
One thing I think you should add. Bleeding should be independent of 
the amount of Body due to Bleeding. For example, if I take 12 BODY, 
the Bleeding roll should be 3d6. However, if I take 4 BODY, and I 
bleed 8 BODY to 12 BODY, I should only roll 1d6. 
 
>This also leads to 
>characters being removed from combat after one solid hit from a 
killing 
>attack as and amount of body taken becomes a major concern (no more 
of 
>this "so what if I'm down 10 body, I've got 5 left, no way they can 
do 
>that in one shot thru my armor, I keep fighting" nonsense). 
>It is way more lethal, that's why it's important to move bleeding to 
>once a minute, so the paramedics (or corpsman, or cleric, or 
whatever) 
>have time to arive. 
 
Good idea. There should also be rules showing why doctors, field 
surgeons, and similar people can help more than a good first aid roll, 
in the long run. 
 
>And in the more book keeping department, I also make players keep 
track 
>of how much body they have lost due to bleeding because they can get 
>back the entire amount at the hospital when the doctors pump them 
full 
>of whole blood (or half the amount if all they can get is plasma). 
> 
 
Under my suggestion, they also would Bleed slower if they remember how 
much damage was from the Bleeding, as that damage doesn't accelerate 
Bleeding. 
 
BTW, "Bleeding", IMHO, would also include things like shock. IOW, you 
don't just bleed to death, a variety of things happen that could 
result in death. However, most of them, not counting the initial 
damage, are things you recover from readily, once properly treated, 
and thus you recover the lost Body in the hospital. Blood replacement 
is a part of this. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Hero Games Web Update 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 08:35:59 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wednesday, January 07, 1998 2:52 PM, C. Badger wrote: 
 
 
>At 16:38 01/07/98 -0500, dflacks wrote: 
>>Netminder just sent me a notice saying that the hero games web site 
has 
>>been update.  I have looked over the web site and can not find 
anything 
>>different.  Does anyone on the list know what, if anything, has 
actually 
>>changed. 
> 
>Most of the updates have been in the digital hero portion of their 
site. 
 
 
I didn't find any new Digital Hero this time. I think they updated the 
convention listing. 
 
Which reminds me, Rustycon is this weekend... 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 08 Jan 1998 12:04:46 -0500 
Lines: 30 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
 
F> If I created a power whose primary purpose included abilities that 
F> could be bought under the present system readily, but which cost only 
F> half as much using the new power, you would scream bloody murder. 
F> Primary vs Secondary has nothing to do with whether or not it has a 
F> balanced cost. 
 
Okay... so lets just toss all the game mechanics out the window and play 
Amber instead. :) 
 
That said, Characteristics are not Powers. 
 
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Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: Godzilla any tips?? 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 12:16:58 -0500 (EST) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>     4 Comeliness        
 
Hey, what are you talking about?  Godzilla's a babe magnet! 
 
Can't wait for the movie, btw... 
 
-Eric 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:22:41 -0800 
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On Wednesday, January 07, 1998 3:58 PM, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
 
 
>On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Filksinger wrote: 
> 
>> On Tuesday, January 06, 1998 5:38 PM, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
> 
>> >>  t> character who by conception should have had a 10-ish STR, 
but 
>> >>  t> in order to free up enough points to fit in some other 
things 
>> >>  t> which fit the concept, I had to take a 13, 15, 18, or even 
20 STR. 
>> > 
>> >> I've only come up with that problem once 
>> > 
>> >Once out of every few hundred is way too many. 
>> 
>> Really? Then in my experience, AP, NND, AVLD, Transformation, 
Mental 
>> powers, telepathy, multipowers, VPP, and frankly, virtually all 
powers 
>> in the game are messed up. They have all caused me trouble at one 
>> point or another. Certainly once out of every few hundred. 
> 
>More than one out of every few hundred Telepathy users finds 
themselves in 
>a position where taking more dice of Telepathy costs them fewer 
points? I 
>don't see how that could happen. (Unless it's bought in an Elemental 
>Control - EC's share this problem with STR.) 
 
 
Ah. Well, if that type of trouble is the only one that causes you 
problems, then I would have to cut it down to all Frameworks and CON. 
 
>> >> possibly restrict the other two Frameworks. 
>> > 
>> >Why? They're fine... they actually give reduced utility for their 
>> >reduced cost. 
>> 
>> Ridiculous. Lets take a quick look at Multipower. 
>> 
>> 50 Multipower 
>> 5u 10d6 EB 
>> 5u 5d6 Flash 
>> 5u 3d6+1 RKA 
>> Total cost: 65 
>> 
>> 25 10d6 EB, cannot be fired with other attacks (-1) 
>> 25 5d6 Flash, cannot be fired with other attacks (-1) 
>> 25 3d6+1 RKA, cannot be fired with other attacks (-1) 
>> Total cost: 75 
>> 
>> So with the ridiculous Limitation value of -1 for not being able to 
>> fire non-linked attacks together, you still don't come close to the 
>> cost savings of Multipower. 
> 
>You know, if you call your _own_ assumptions ridiculous, you're not 
going 
>to convince anybody.:) You're right; a -1 for "cannot be used with 
>certain other powers" is ridiculous; according to my BBB (pp 
114-115), 
>it's a -9 Limitation, except you need to pay full price for one of 
those 
>powers. 
> 
>(Which isn't exactly right, but you get my point). 
> 
 
If your point is that you agree with me that Multipower is also a 
"point crock", and is not significantly better than EC in this 
respect, then yes, I do.:) 
 
I don't necessarily think that this means it needs to be thrown out, 
however, or that it is necessarily broken. Taking advantage of the 
system so that things work better is a part of life, whether you are 
talking about engineering or bureaucracy. 
 
A character who increases their Figured Characteristics via STR is 
taking advantage of how STR works, both in the game and real life. If 
I decided to get harder to knock out, more resistant to blunt impacts, 
and increase my ability to recover from fatigue, strength building 
exercises would be a major part of it. In fact, I'm not certain how I 
would go about building up those three in the real world without it. 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character (Inflation!) 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 12:28:47 -0500 (EST) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
> Look, I'm nopt trying to start a flame war here, but I find your values a 
> little ridiculous.  Don't you think it is a bit silly to claim that 
> 'maybe 5 normal humans in history had a 23 DEX'?  We have no real way to 
> measure any of the numbers you have given, so why get all bent out of 
> shape? 
>  
 
Well, I'm not really bent out of shape.  I'm just expressing how I see the 
numbers scale in champs.  If you look at the strength scale and see how 
much weight a 23 strength character can lift (I don't have the BBB in 
front of me) I suspect you will find a figure that the strongest man 
in the world could not lift.  Probably "only 5 people in history" was 
and overstatement, but to make that the average dex in a campaign 
seems a bit much.  Of course, as I said before, this has a lot to do 
with genre convention and personal taste. 
 
-Eric  
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:30:49 -0800 
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On Wednesday, January 07, 1998 3:57 PM, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
 
 
>On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Filksinger wrote: 
> 
>> Frankly, I am not certain why I am posting this. My opponents have 
>> made it quite clear that they have no intention of even admitting 
that 
>> the other side has any points at all. I have been quite willing to 
>> admit that my opponents have good arguments, but they are not. I am 
>> quite certain that the people who posted things like, "all 
reasonable 
>> arguments agree with me" won't even give it a fair shake. 
> 
>The fact that no arguments I'd seen to date made any sense to me 
hardly 
>implies that no future ones will. 
 
Depends upon a) the quality of the arguments, and b) the way in which 
you dismiss them. If you are sufficiently contemptuous of reasonable 
though flawed arguments, then it does tend to imply this. 
 
>(And what's this "people"? Who else has 
>been as abrasive as me?) 
 
 
I didn't want to a) look through all the past posts for specific 
people, or b) make it a direct, personal attack. If a person didn't 
write things like that, I wasn't talking about them. If they did, I 
wanted their attention.:) 
 
>> I got into this debate by correcting a deliberately bad example of 
why 
>> STR was superior in cost savings to EC. The response I got was that 
>> comparing STR to EC was a bad way to prove balance. Prove an 
example 
>> wrong, and watch your opponent declare the example's basis to be 
>> meaningless and invalid.:) 
> 
>If you group everybody who disagrees with you together conceptually, 
I 
>suppose this could seem contradictory. 
 
I did put a smiley in there for a reason. 
 
>> DEX: Buy a 20 DEX for 30 pts. Get +4 levels in DCV, 20 pts. +4 
levels 
>> in OCV, 20 pts., +2 levels in DEX based skills, 6 pts. +2 levels 
with 
>> DEX rolls, 4 pts (iffy, I know, but I don't know how else to 
simulate 
>> this without buying DEX), Lightning Reflexes (I don't know the 
cost), 
>> +1 SPD, 10 pts. 
> 
>I don't think it's meaningful to take things which are a part of the 
>definition of DEX (that being agility and reaction time), splitting 
them 
>up, and show that they total more than DEX's cost; this is tantamount 
to 
>claiming EB is over-powered because 30 pts of it get you 24 pts of 
"EB, 
>doesn't work in darkness" and 20 pts of "EB, only in darkness". 
> 
 
Two reasons why I added all of the additional aspects of DEX into the 
equation. First, some people had included such things as HA and EB, 
only with focus of opportunity to STR, in an effort to make it look 
more expensive. 
 
The second reason is more complex. If 1 DEX cost 10 pts, people would 
scream about how overpriced it is. How would they be able to prove 
this? By comparing it to other ways to buy all of its abilities, and 
show how many points buying them saves. Similarly, if you wished to 
prove that 
a characteristic or power is underpriced, you make a similar 
comparison (Stretching vs. TK, for example.) If DEX cost only 2 points 
for each point of DEX, this is how you would determine that it was 
underpriced. The difference between 
inherent abilities and side effects is only a matter of degree-- both 
can make an ability over or underpriced. 
 
>STR is different; with STR, you get things which aren't directly a 
part of 
>STR's definition (the amount of HTH damage you can do and the amount 
you 
>can lift, carry or throw), and the value of those things is more than 
the 
>cost of the STR itself. In effect, the actual physical strength costs 
>nothing. 
 
STR is a characteristic, not a power. It _is_ an inherent property of 
STR, when not a super power, that it makes you 
more resistant to injury and generally fitter, and this quality would 
tend to be reflected in superstrength as well. The figured 
characteristics that STR provides are a normal part of what being 
strong does for you. There isn't a clear-cut, fundamental difference 
between the two. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 11:34:58 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 09:00 PM 1/8/98 -0500, TokyoMark wrote: 
>> 
>>This *is* a tenuous parallel, because even Cap -- with his colossally 
>>impressive and exaggerated musculature -- is explicitly a 20 STR (800 lb. 
>>maximum).  Created by a HERO player, he'd probably have a 30. :/ 
> 
>I agree it's tenous. But yes, I'd give Captain America higher than 20 
>strength, except during those periods when he's not enhanced by the super 
>soldier formula.  I did him once for a campaign I ran years ago in 
>university and gave him a 25 strength.  But I don't see the HCM as the 
>absolute a human in TV, movies, whatever, can reach.  With tremendous 
>training they can go higher.  The peak of human physical ability, like 
>Capt. A, is above 20. 
 
The problem with this is that STR is the one stat which is NOT subject to 
argument.  A mere 22 STR is the capacity to cleanly lift over 1000 lbs (and 
this is *before* accounting for pushing) -- to the best of my knowledge, a 
feat physically impossible for any human being without assistance.  20 is 
generous enough for a "human peak", 21 if you want to press your luck a bit. 
 
>>I have no objections to being higher than average.  I have an objection to 
>>being higher than MAXIMUM, when we're still talking about ostensibly 
>>"normal" humans. 
> 
>If that was truly meant as the absolute MAXIMUM, then why are human's 
>allowed to buy above it at double cost?  It's not even listed as an 
>optional rule, it's the standard way to handle it. 
 
Because occasionally, campaigns with normal human characteristic maxima in 
place will have non-normal humans or non-human characters, who must still 
purchase their statistics from the human model (because humans wrote the game). 
 
> I have no trouble with campaigns that use lower limits.  There are alot 
> of pluses to do so.  But there is nothing wrong with a game that uses 
> higher characteristics, either.  It's simply a matter of what type of  
> game you want. 
 
There is at least one thing wrong with a game with higher limits: "normal" 
humans can huck Yugos. :] 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
X-Sender: jjerles@pacificnet.net 
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 09:45:10 -0800 
From: John Jerles <jjerles@pacificnet.net> 
Subject: Re: Military HEROs 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:18 PM 1/8/98 +0100, Roger A. Wesson, Jr. wrote: 
>  Anyway, I was wondering who else on the list is military, currently 
>or previously? 
>  I am a currently in the  Air Force, with plans to separate this summer. 
 
 Air Force 1982-1986.  Aircraft Armement Systems Specialist.  (Fancy name 
for bomb loader, or 'muzzle fucker' as we were affectionatly called.)  1 
Year Hill AFB in Utah, and 3 Years Woodbridge AFB in England (With about 2 
years of that speant at various temorary duties all around the globe.) 
 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:53:20 -0800 
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell) 
Subject: Re: Converting Movement to Real World (" to kph) 
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
-> From uraeus@bunt.com Thu Jan  8 07:38:35 1998 
->  
->   OK, I was wondering if anyone out there has developed a chart 
-> that converts Movement speeds (with and without NCM) to a real 
-> world value (kph or mph).  Either value, mph/kph is fine by me, I 
-> am very familar with converting betwenthe two. 
->  
->   
->   I know that I could easily use Exel to create a little program to do 
-> this. But, if anyone already has this produced in a text file or on a 
-> Web page, it saves me that much time. 
->  
 
Here is all you need to know: 
 
1" Champions = 2m 
There are ~1609m in one mile 
There are 1000m in one kilometer 
1 segement = 1 second 
There are 3600 seconds in one hour 
 
Now you can figure out any movement/speed combo you want with a simple hand 
calculator. No need for a program or website. No need for the calculator either, 
if you're reasonably handy with numbers. 
 
								-Sam 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 12:58:15 -0500 (EST) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> At 03:38 PM 1/6/98 -0500, you wrote: 
> >A DEX of 15 and SPD 3 is a bit low for most superhero games I have been 
> >in.  Usually we shoot for DEX 18 SPD 4 at the low end. 
>  
>  
> Why?  A brick that is half again as fast as a normal and twice as 
> dextrous is not good enough for you? 
>  
> Everybody in the campaign doesn't need to have the DEX and SPD of 
> a martial artist.  You can conduct a perfectly fun and entertaining 
> game by giving a more realistic spread to the characteristics  
> values.  And by keeping numbers no higher than they need to be, 
> you free up a lot of points for attributes that are more important 
> to the character. 
>  
 
This is what I was trying to say in my other post, but Mike said it 
better than I did.  I wish I read this before I posted my message 
so I could have screamed "Ditto!" at the top of my lungs. 
 
-Eric 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
From: "Michael Nunn" <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Organization:  Rising Force Publications 
Date:          Thu, 8 Jan 1998 18:26:09 +0000 
Subject:       Re: Military HEROs 
Reply-to: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net 
Priority: normal 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I am former Military,  
 
Army, I served with the 101st Airborne with short stints with 5th  
Group Special Forces and the 75th Ranger Bat. 
 
Michael 
 
 
 
"Herozine" Rising Force Publications "SUPER" RPG 'zine, 
check out our web site at:    
http://users.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 11:00:46 -0800 
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On Wednesday, January 07, 1998 6:42 PM, Leah L. Watts wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>Absolutely!  I've been working in stained glass for several years, 
and 
>have yet to carve myself up with either the glass cutter or the glass 
>edges.  I can handle an x-acto knife without danger to fingers or 
craft 
>project.  However, if you average in everything that DEX covers, 
there's 
>no way I rate anything over 10.  I don't have some of the other 
facets of 
>that stat, and that counterbalances my hand-eye coordination. 
 
 
Absolutely. That is one of the reasons I like some aspects of 
characteristics in Fuzion. The idea that all people who have good 
balance and kinesthetics should also have good manual dexterity is one 
of the weaknesses of Champions for use in heroic-level games. 
 
Filksinger 
 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:44:35 -0500 (EST) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
> Absolutely. That is one of the reasons I like some aspects of 
> characteristics in Fuzion. The idea that all people who have good 
> balance and kinesthetics should also have good manual dexterity is one 
> of the weaknesses of Champions for use in heroic-level games. 
>  
> Filksinger 
>  
 
Well, I take your point and partly agree with you (I always like it when 
game systems seperate agility from manual dexterity), but I think that 
if Champs added another characteristic, it would get too confusing. 
I think one of the weaknesses of Fuzion is the deluge of characteristics 
and optional characteristics that a GM must familiarize himself with. 
 
-Eric 
 
From: Doc Tough <DocTough@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:44:51 EST 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist part 1 of 2 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Doc sez... 
 
     The Doctor is very happy to see the process of a fifth edition of the 
Hero System starting.  And while I knows that few if any of my revisions will 
be adopted or even considered, I find that the concept of Hero Games opening 
the floor to those of us on the 'List is great. 
     Any way on to this posting.... 
 
In a message dated 98-01-02 14:46:49 EST, Eric Burns wrote: 
 
<< Here is my list of suggestions for changes to the powers section 
 for the 5th edition.  Sorry it's a bit long, but I'm on winter  
 break and have too much time on my hands 
 -=- 
 A "Density Reduction" power is needed.  2pts per 1/2x mass, maybe? 
 Shrinking with the "Mass Reduction Only" limitation is an ugly 
 kludge and should not be necessary.>> 
 
     I would go even farther by suggesting new powers for Gravity and Mass 
control.  I instituted a Mass stat in my campaign to begin to address these 
issues.  "Kludged" powers (those that are cobbled together from existing 
powers and numerous Advantages and Limitations) are bad and often, IMHO, 
usually indicate a need for a "real" base power to simulate the desired 
effect. 
 -=- 
 <<The Enhanced Senses power "Detect" has too vague a description.  It 
 needs to be stated clearly what sort of detects are allowable and 
 which ones aren't, and how accurate they are.  The accuracy and 
 usefulness of a detect should also figure into its cost.>> 
 
     Of course, no Detect should simulate an existing power.  I usually base 
the accuracy on the roll, not the cost.  The cost of Detects shouldn't be 
altered.  The usefulness of a Detect is up to the player and the GM.  If it is 
viewed as being important enough to have in the first, then the PC should pay 
the listed costs.   
 -=- 
<< You need to add a Touch sense group.>> 
 
     Yes, and generally an expanded listing of "Sense Groups" including 
optional "Sense Groups" like Magical, incorporating the idea that certain 
effects can be detected by more than one SG.  I have included magical, 
tactile, and Position as viable SGs. 
 -=- 
 <<Force Wall is too expensive in it's current cost construction.  You 
 should be able to buy the strength of the wall and the size of the 
 wall seperately.  It's too inflexible to have the size of the wall 
 directly dependant on the active points.>> 
 
     Agreed. 
 -=- 
<< A Life Support vs. Violent death (character will recover BODY at  
 normal rate no matter how low it is) would help make a lot of 
 character concepts more possible.  I liked the suggestion that 
 someone made that it should cost 30 pts for full immunity, and 
 20 pts for immunity with exceptions (like stake though the heart 
 or sunlight for vampires).>> 
 
     A very interesting concept, but also very open to abuse.  I would also 
shy away from any power that provides absolute immunity to what is basically a 
effect of combat and adventuring and campaigning.    
 -=- 
<< Regeneration is far too cheap.  I like the suggestion that has been  
 made to base regeneration on the time chart so that 10 pts of regen  
 means that you get your REC in body back every week, 20 pts means  
 every day and so forth.  Regeneration should also have an advantage 
 to allow you to grow back limbs and lost body parts.>> 
 
     While I could agree that the ability to alter the Time Interval is 
useful, having the first Interval at one week defeats the purpose of Regen. 
Its function is to provide the power to heal back lost BODY rapidy. 
 -=- 
 <<Shape Shift should have a (+1/2) advantage that you can buy that would 
 allow you to exactly duplicate the appearance of  person or object (of  
 a type you could normally shape shift into) without a disguise roll.   
 Characters with an inherant ability to exactly duplicate another's  
 appearance are not necessarily masters of disguise (with knowledge of  
 makeup, costume, etc) and this seems a less kludgy way to do  
 Mystique-type characters.  It also should be stated that, dependinding  
 on the special effects, Shape Shift allows small changes in mass and  
 size (within the same mass and size class).>> 
 
     Interesting. 
 -=- 
 <<Under Shrinking, you should introduce the limitation "Weak Shrinking" 
 a la Dave Mattingly's Power Points article.  Weak Shrinking would be 
 a -1 Limitation that would decrease your STR by 5pts for every level 
 you shrink.  Maybe this limitation should affect movement rates, ED, 
 and/or PD as well.  Also, when any two characters of different sizes 
 fight, the smaller character should get DCV and OCV advantages, and 
 the larger character should get DCV and OCV penalties.>> 
 
     An offensive version of shrinking with a debilitating effect on the 
target could be worth a separate power just to prevent the Kludges. 
 -=- 
 <<There should be a "Slipping" power to cause people to fall over if they 
 move too fast.  This is one of the few powers that seem impossible to 
 do under the current rules.>> 
 
     Agreed. 
 -=- 
 <<Stretching is ridiculously expensive.  Try 2pts or 3pts per 1".  Also, 
 it should be clearly stated that stretching allows you to stretch 
 around walls and such to reach a hex (unless you take a limitation 
 to restrict this).>> 
 
     I would like to see an expanded section on the rules for Stretching 
overall. 
 -=- 
 <<For Telepathy, you need to more clearly state what each effect 
 level means.  What's the difference between a "surface thought", a 
 "deep, hidden thought", a "memory", and a "subconscious" thought??!   
 Give examples.  You should also introduce a "senses feed" option 
 whereby you could see, hear, etc whatever the target is experiencing 
 (+5 pts per sense, +10 pts per sense group) if you make telepathic  
 contact.  Using Clairsentience to simulate this ability is far too 
 expensive for what it's worth.>> 
 
     I think the levels are well defined already.  the "Sense Feed" is 
something to think about. 
 -=- 
 <<Teleportation is too expensive, especially long-range teleportation. 
 Long range NCM Teleportation won't help you in combat, so there is 
 no harm in making it much cheaper.  2x distance shouldn't cost more 
 than 2pts per doubling.  Also, introduce a Gateway advantage that  
 would make the teleportation work by way of a portal that anyone could  
 walk through.>> 
 
     An overall revision of T-Port is in order to allow greater porting 
distances but to limit the accuracy and ability to 'port in to a location.  I 
often have to prevent PCs from attempting to 'port right into the villain 
base. 
 -=- 
 <<The Transform power needs a complete rewrite!  It is far too vague, and 
 has some problems.  First of all, it needs to be clearly stated whether, 
 how, and by how much the point total of a victim can be changed as a 
 result of each type of transform.  Secondly powers that are more useful 
 should cost more, so that turning someone into a marble statue (major 
 transform) should cost more than blinding someone (major transform). 
 Thirdly, this power is the most likely to confuse or be misused, so you 
 need to have LOTS AND LOTS OF EXAMPLES.  Don't be afraid to fill up two  
 pages on the description of this power!>> 
 
Agreed. 
 -=- 
 <<Almost every power needs a more detailed description with MORE EXAMPLES!>>. 
 
     This would consume a lot of space and probably result in less rules and 
mechanics. 
 -=- 
 <<Add some new Area of Effect advantages like AoE: Two Targets (to  
 simulate things like a pair of guns, each fired at a different 
 target).  Also, you need to be explicit about how existing AoE's 
 operate within 3d Space: is AoE: Radius a disk or a sphere, for 
 instance?>> 
 
     Of course, AoE effects should be considered 3-d. 
 -=- 
 <<Invisible Power Effects should be cheaper, at least for non-attack 
 powers.>> 
 
     I have so few players buy Invisible Power Effects, I can't really worry 
about this issue. 
 -=- 
 <<Linked needs a much clearer description.  You need to be brave and 
 take sides in the GLD!  This issue must be settled!>> 
 
Agreed. 
  
<< -Eric>> 
 
Doc Tough  
 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:12:57 -0500 
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org> 
Subject: Con Games 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>> What I liked in particular about many of these games is that they used the 
>> Hero System, but were extremely light on mechanics while you were 
>> playing. My psi game was like that; players didn't even get HSR writeups of 
>> their powers, so that the mechanics wouldn't get in the way. Hopefully, 
>> they had a good time regardless. :-) 
 
> OK:  tell us how you did this...  This is my major beef with HERO; it 
> totally ruins the fantasy feel, for example, for the players to be  
> immersed in mechanics.  Give us some details! 
 
The short answer is: judiciously glossing over Hero mechanics, or putting 
mechanics in the hands of the GM rather than the player. The result may seem 
(as some have noted) "less than Hero", but it's far more conducive to 
roleplaying without losing any of Hero's flexibility.  
 
Less important encounters, or encounters where the outcome is near-certain, 
are the places to gloss over rules. For example, don't require dice for a PER 
roll; just tell the player what he sees without dice (either roll beforehand 
or decide what the character is likely to see). If someone with 20d6 Mind 
Control tries to take over a normal, don't roll dice, just let him do it. This 
keeps you focussed on roleplay rather than mechanics, and sets a tone for the 
game. When you do get to the final encounter, you can require players to roll 
dice, but they will (hopefully) be in a more roleplay-esque state of mind. 
 
In our con game, there was one fight per session. One was the fight we had 
(more or less) expected to happen, the other was...improvised. :-) In both 
cases, the GMs took care of segment/phase stuff (I just called out who was 
next, and when holding players had to act or lose their next action). The GMs 
always rolled damage (we never skipped this; I think we even used hit 
location), and described the effect to the players. We didn't let people take 
more than a few seconds to move; because of the type of game it was, people 
weren't looking in the rulebook or asking how certain maneuvers would 
work. They just acted.  
 
I run Fantasy Hero a lot, and I've found that giving players explanatory text 
in place of or alongside mechanics is a surefire way to get away from 
roll-playing. The players need something to latch on to; just telling them to 
move away from game mechanics is not enough. 
 
Hope this helps, 
 
Geoff Speare 
 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 12:18:05 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Godzilla any tips?? 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
KaosTym writes: 
>      GODZILLA ( POST 1985 - Pre Destroyah) 
Hm...I have some pre-85 writeups of godzilla and a few relatives, posted them a 
year or two back.  Some comments, though: 
>     DISADVANTAGES         BASE: 100+PTS     
You left out 'attracted by birds' ;)                
>  PTS             POWERS              END 
>  140 21 LVLS Growth (stats already       
>      included),Always On(-1/2),0 END     
>      Persistent(+1)                    0 
>From the stats I have, the G:85 godzilla was 80 meters tall and 50,000 tons 
(the earlier one was 50/20kT). That works out to 16 levels of growth and 3 
levels of density increase (part of it is just being kind of wide, though).  He 
may have gotten bigger in later movies, however. 
>   75 20D6 HA,"Tail Sweep",1/2 END        
>      (+1/4)                            3 
Um...his 'tail sweep' should do _less_ damage than his normal strike, not 43 
dice.  Tail sweep is basically adding spreadable to his strength. 
>   8 10 Mental Defense                   
>  64 6D6 Absorption (Radiation),         
>     "Radiation",4 Max Increase,vs       
>     SFX (all powers),Always On(-1/2) 
It's more than just radiation; he's been known to absorb electricity as well. 
>   86 40" Running (Radiation),has turn    
>     mode,0 END(+1/2)                  0 
That's a bit fast.  I'd go with only 20" 
>   40 75% Damage Reduction (PD)          
>      (Radiation),resistant,Always On   
>      (-1/2)     
Always on isn't a limitation on damage reduction (in general, it isn't a 
limitation on any power which is by default persistent). 
>   25 +38" SWIM (Radiation),doesn't       
>      add to figured   
There's no such thing as figured swim.                   
>   22 11" KB Resist (Radiation)           
 
Does he really need more than his natural 21"?  Giant monsters tend to knock 
each other about just fine. 
 
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 20:26:22 +0000 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
Subject: Re: Godzilla any tips?? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
One thing I didn't see in the write up was any resistant defenses. Unless you 
count the Damage reduction, but that still makes him fodder for the army. 
 
And I have a beef with Damage reduction that has the limitation "Always On" 
 
40 75% Damage Reduction (PD)          
     (Radiation),resistant,Always On   
     (-1/2)                             
 
-Mark 
 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:29:53 -0500 
From: Geoffrey Speare <geoff@omg.org> 
Subject: 5th Edition: Summon 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
I was thinking about powers which could use minor revision for 5th Edition, 
and Summon came to mind. Summon is a Fantasy Hero which didn't appear in the 
"core" rules until 4th edition; as such, I think still needs a little 
generalizing to make it as useful as possible.  
 
Changes to Summon:  
 
1) Characters should be limited to the number of Summoned creatures they can 
   have; if you buy Summon 16 creatures, you can have 16 summoned tops, not 16 
   per Phase until you fill up the earth. :-) 
 
2) The current assumption that summoned entities are hostile is troublesome; 
   instead, the character should be able to purchase the appropriate 
   attitude. Something like this:  
 
   (table from BARNESD@ccfa.nawc-ad-indy.navy.mil Wed May 25 10:27:54 1994) 
 
   Normal Attitude towards Summoner           Lim/Adv 
   ----------------------------------------------------- 
   Violent    (equals a Total    PsychLim)     -  1 
   Hostile    (equals a Strong   PsychLim)     - 1/2 
   Annoyed    (equals a Moderate PsychLim)     - 1/4 
   Neutral                                      + 0 
   Friendly   (equals a Moderate PsychLim)     + 1/4 
   Dedicated  (equals a Strong   PsychLim)     + 1/2 
   Slavish    (equals a Total    PsychLim)     +  1 
 
   This also lets you summon EGO-less objects (cars, etc.) for an appropriate 
   Advantage/Limitation (usually +1, unless you summon things which you can't 
   use or which hurt you). 
 
3) This power could then be used for characters with Followers and/or Vehicles 
   who don't want to lose the points if their Follower/Vehicle is 
   destroyed. Just Summon another one...and limit the Summon to represent the 
   time and other real-world considerations involved in replacing what was 
   lost. 
 
Geoff Speare 
 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net> 
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net> 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:34:53 +0000 
Subject: Re: Long-Range Teleportation 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> In my game we have been using FTL w/Desolidification for long time 
> as a = means of long-range teleportation, either within or without 
> the = atmosphere.  A strict interpretation of the rules says this is 
> not = allowed.  We don't mind changing rules to suit our purposes 
> but we = wondered if there shouldn't be some way within the rules to 
> allow for = long-range teleportation.  To stay within our point and 
> DC limits we can = only achieve a couple of hundred miles. =20 I was 
> curious as to what the other list subscribers use to achieve this = 
> effect, if anything. 
 
The draft of what was supposed to be the new Star Hero suggested the  
use of "Mega Hexes", and buying a +2 Advantage to Teleportation using  
mega hexes to decrease the cost.  The mega hex idea would have  
covered more than just teleportation, it also would have simplified  
starship combat for example.  Basically, you have 1000 hexes  
equalling one megahex, and so on similar to the metric system.  You  
increase or decrease the Advantage based on how far you expand the  
alternate hex sizes--this is something like how they handle hex sizes  
in Battle Tech for large vs small objects (a Mech Hex is equal to 30  
hexes for example for a normal sized human). 
 
It was a nifty idea that never got off the ground alas. 
 
---------------- 
Theala Sildorian 
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html 
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page! 
 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 98 20:36:02  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Summon 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:29:53 -0500, Geoffrey Speare wrote: 
 
> 
>I was thinking about powers which could use minor revision for 5th Edition, 
>and Summon came to mind. Summon is a Fantasy Hero which didn't appear in the 
>"core" rules until 4th edition; as such, I think still needs a little 
>generalizing to make it as useful as possible.  
> 
>Changes to Summon:  
> 
>1) Characters should be limited to the number of Summoned creatures they can 
>   have; if you buy Summon 16 creatures, you can have 16 summoned tops, not 16 
>   per Phase until you fill up the earth. :-) 
> 
>2) The current assumption that summoned entities are hostile is troublesome; 
>   instead, the character should be able to purchase the appropriate 
>   attitude. Something like this:  
> 
>   (table from BARNESD@ccfa.nawc-ad-indy.navy.mil Wed May 25 10:27:54 1994) 
> 
>   Normal Attitude towards Summoner           Lim/Adv 
>   ----------------------------------------------------- 
>   Violent    (equals a Total    PsychLim)     -  1 
>   Hostile    (equals a Strong   PsychLim)     - 1/2 
>   Annoyed    (equals a Moderate PsychLim)     - 1/4 
>   Neutral                                      + 0 
>   Friendly   (equals a Moderate PsychLim)     + 1/4 
>   Dedicated  (equals a Strong   PsychLim)     + 1/2 
>   Slavish    (equals a Total    PsychLim)     +  1 
> 
>   This also lets you summon EGO-less objects (cars, etc.) for an appropriate 
>   Advantage/Limitation (usually +1, unless you summon things which you can't 
>   use or which hurt you). 
> 
>3) This power could then be used for characters with Followers and/or Vehicles 
>   who don't want to lose the points if their Follower/Vehicle is 
>   destroyed. Just Summon another one...and limit the Summon to represent the 
>   time and other real-world considerations involved in replacing what was 
>   lost. 
 
I LIKE this, though I'd double the cost of the advantages - otherwise 
everyone will go for them. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 14:36:13 -0600 
From: Alex Rojas <rojasa@uthscsa.edu> 
Subject: Godzilla any tips?? 
X-Sender: rojasa@arwen.uthscsa.edu 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>From:	"KaosTym@aol.com"  "KaosTym"  8-JAN-1998 00:17:01.18 
>To:	"champ-l@omg.org" 
>CC:	 
>Subj:	Godzilla any tips?? 
> 
>     GODZILLA ( POST 1985 - Pre Destroyah) 
>   115 Strength                        
>   10 Dexterity                                       
>   60 Constitution      
>   70 Body                
>    7 Intelligence        
>    8 Ego                   
>   60 Presence          
>    4 Comeliness        
>   40 Physical Defens   
>   30 Energy Defense   
>    3 Speed             
>   40 Recovery          
>  120 Endurance        
>  170 Stun          
> 
> 
>DISADVANTAGES         BASE: 100+PTS     
>Physical Lim,"Animal             25 
> Intelligence",all the time,       
> fully                                  
>Berserk,"When takes Body",very   35   
> common,occur 14-,recover 8-             
>Hunted,"G Force ",less           20      
> powerful,non-combat influence,       
> harsh,appear 14-                       
>Rep,"Radioactive Reptile",occur  20      
> 14-,extreme reputation            
>Distinctive,"Radioactive         15 
>Kaiju Bonus                     969 
>                    
> PTS             POWERS              END 
> 140 21 LVLS Growth (stats already       
>     included),Always On(-1/2),0 END     
>     Persistent(+1)                    0 
> 264 8D6 RKA,"Radioactive Breath Lim     
>     :  last 2d6 vs. Inanimate           
>     objects",-1/2 Var Lim(-1/4),Area    
>     Effect(+1 1/2),cone,x4 Increased    
>     Area,1/2 END(+1/4)               16 
>  75 20D6 HA,"Tail Sweep",1/2 END        
>     (+1/4)                            3 
>  8 10 Mental Defense                   
> 64 6D6 Absorption (Radiation),         
>    "Radiation",4 Max Increase,vs       
>    SFX (all powers),Always On(-1/2)    
>  86 40" Running (Radiation),has turn    
>    mode,0 END(+1/2)                  0 
>  40 75% Damage Reduction (PD)          
>     (Radiation),resistant,Always On   
>     (-1/2)                             
 
Having Damage Reduction always on is not a limitation. 
 
>  40 75% Damage Reduction (ED)           
>    (Radiation),resistant,Always On     
>    (-1/2)                          
 
See above. 
 
>  25 +38" SWIM (Radiation),doesn't       
>     add to figured                     
 
Swimming doesn't have any additional figured characteristics. 
 
>  22 11" KB Resist (Radiation)           
 
Godzilla costs enough, you don't need to 'save' 53 points that way. 
Otherwise, looks good.  You might want to rais the COM though, other 
monsters seem to like him and come to his aid.  Or maybe he has good 
conversation skills :) 
 
 
Alex 
 
X-Sender: scm@mail.aci.net 
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 13:25:50 -0800 
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <scm@mactyre.net> 
Subject: Bruce Harlick to appear on #herochat 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Greetings, folks!  
 
Bruce Harlick will be making an appearance on #herochat on dal.net on 
Sunday, January 18, from 1-2 p.m PST.  He'll be talking about the future of 
Hero Games, upcoming products, and Champions 5th edition.  Here's your 
chance to get the scoop!  
 
For more information, check out the #herochat homepage at 
http://www.mactyre.net/scm/Herochat.html; if you've never done IRC before, 
drop me a line and we'll get you set up.  Hope to see y'all there!  
 
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre 
http://www.mactyre.net 
 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Cc: "'scm@mactyre.net'" <scm@mactyre.net> 
Subject: Re: Bruce Harlick to appear on #herochat 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:59:10 -0500 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I won't be able to make it. Will someone be logging the chat? 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
X-Sender: shelley@mail.mactyre.net 
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 14:07:09 -0800 
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <scm@mactyre.net> 
Subject: Re: Bruce Harlick to appear on #herochat 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 04:59 PM 1/8/98 -0500, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
>I won't be able to make it. Will someone be logging the chat? 
 
Sure, I'll log it and post it from the #herochat homepage.  We should be 
having a number of guests show up, and we'll make those conversations 
available as well.  Sound like a plan?  
 
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre 
http://www.mactyre.net 
 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:29:44 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Subject: GRG: Still here? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I just noticed something... 
 
is Mark from Gold Rush still about, or did he decide to leave? 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 14:38:25 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Champions Survey 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
   On page S22 of Champions Fourth Edition, the results of a survey of 
Champions players and GMs are printed, giving the stats of the average 
Champions character. 
   As an experiment, with the Fifth Edition of the Hero System coming 
around, I'd like to try a similar survey for the list. 
   Please reply directly to me (without CC:ing to the list, unless your 
software won't have it any other way) the following statistics for your 
campaign.  The first section is for beginning superhero characters, PC and 
NPC alike; the second is for agent-level NPCs in a superhero world. 
   I'll cover heroic-level campaigns a bit later. 
 
   Average Damage Class of a beginning character's main attack: 
   Average Damage Class of "desperation" attacks (such as a Haymaker, or 
any heavily-Limited Power): 
   Average beginning total PD/ED: 
   Average beginning DEX: 
   Average beginning SPD: 
   Average beginning EGO: 
   Average number of beginning Skills: 
   Starting base points: 
   Average beginning Disadvantage total: 
 
   Average Damage Class of an NPC agent's main attack: 
   Average NPC agent total PD/ED: 
   Average NPC agent DEX: 
   Average NPC agent SPD: 
   Average NPC agent base points: 
   Average NPC agent Disadvantage total: 
 
   I'll return the results to the list, and forward them to Steven Long in 
case he's interested. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 19:46:09 -0500 
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net 
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
Bryce Berggren wrote: 
 
>  ... and that one of the side effects of 
> this is that you've got an AWFUL lot of dogma, that whether it's the case 
> or not /believes/ it's been exhaustively researched. 
> 
 
I dont anymore.(sniff) My Karma ran over my Dogma : ) 
 
 
 
 
From: aregalad@miami.edu 
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 19:51:50 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: 5th Edition Wish: Benchmarks (was: A Sample Character) 
Cc: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Reply-to: aregalad@miami.edu 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Howdyho! 
 
I have alot to say about this subject so here it goes: 
 
DRAGONFLY'S ARGUMENT FOR BENCHMARKS 
 
 I've been following the "Sample Character" thread since the beginning and 
have realized the futility of the discussion. Nobody can win this debate 
because HERO has never established clearly defined benchmarks for the HERO 
system. Some people will assert that the human average is a benchmark we 
can use, and I would agree, but HERO has never truly defined how high 
stats can rate before the character ceases to be human. What about the 
Normal Characteristic Maxima disadvantage? It sort of gives us rough 
benchmarks, but it has two problems. The first of these is that HERO 
asserts that characters that are normal humans by conception can buy stats 
above the listed "maxima" - they just have to pay double for it. Since no 
other limits exist, a patient player will buy a 40 DEX for a "normal 
human" and claim that he is still within conception because he paid double 
for it.  
 
This is problematic for various reasons: 
 
1) Inconsistency: Since their are no benchmarks, published characters 
don't compare well - often times within the same sourcebook. This means 
alot more work for GMs who want to use the published work, it leads to a 
gross lack of compatiblity among Champions campaigns, and it fosters long 
drawn-out (although quite entertaining) e-mail discussions about who has 
an overpowered campaign and what stats mean. 
 
2) Added Complexity: Numbers without benchmarks mean little to new 
players. I should know, I have introduced an entire gaming group to 
Champions these past few years (about 8 players) and they all had a hard 
time grasping what their characteristics meant. Their favorite question 
was "I have a __ in ___. Is that good?" I have since developed a benchmark 
table, and now they all know where they stand. Some of them actually 
lowered stats because they felt the description didn't match their 
concept! 
 
3) IT DON'T ADD UP!! After a certain point high stats just don't make 
sense - I don't care if you DID pay double for it. Most of the time people 
argue over DEX or SPD. We can't seem to agree on whether a 30 DEX is 
reasonable for a normal human being. Lets take STR, though. Would anybody 
here allow a character who is conceptually a normal human to have a 50 
STR for 70 points? I think not. All stats should have reasonable and 
consistent upper limits. 
 
So here is my official plea: 
 
Please, HERO GAMES. Pretty please with sugar on top. PLEASE give us 
benchmarks with HERO 5th. 
 
HOW BENCHMARKS SHOULD BE APPROACHED 
 
In reality, HERO GAMES has already done the work. Although I am not a big 
fan of FUZION, it DOES have a pretty nice benchmark table for stats AND 
skills. The different levels of effectiveness and aptitude have already 
been defined. The only thing that needs to be done is to assign HERO 
numbers to those categories. 
 
There are two things I think should NOT be done. 
 
1) HERO should NOT use their conversions from FUZION to arrive at these 
numbers. The stats should be considered purely as Champions stats and 
decisions should be made on this basis. 
 
2) HERO should NOT stick to Normal Characteristic Benchmark Disadvantage 
from 4th Edition HERO for all characterisitics. Each characteristic should 
be judged seperately. 
 
The reason for this last point is that I believe each benchmark level 
should make a difference in play, and with some stats this would not work 
with 20 as a max (or near max). 
 
EXAMPLE: 
 
Fuzion has 5 levels for benchmarks in the human range: 
 
Everyman - joe blow off the street 
Competent - joe competent off the street 
Heroic - real life heroes 
Incredible - elite real life heroes or fictional heroic characters 
Legendary - purely the stuff of comicbooks, myth or legend 
Paranormal - well beyond human range 
 
These are VERY simplified, but I don't have my books with me. They shold 
do for the example. 
 
 
Anyway, assuming that HERO sticks with this breakdown for 5th edition 
rules (and I'm only assuming that for the example) - each of these levels 
should make a significant difference in game play. With DEX this 
difference can be CV, and if you use this criteria the benchmarks would 
look something like this: 
 
Everyman:	10-11 
Competent:	12-14 
Heroic:		15-17 
Incredible:	18-20 
Legendary:	21-23 
Paranormal:	24- 
 
This way each level peaks at a CV increase, while each point in the spread 
makes a difference in initiative. Its pretty close to the 20 that Normal 
Characteristic Maxima suggests. 
 
Now lets take INT. The only in-play significance of INT is INT and PER 
rolls. If you use the same breakdown that you do with DEX, you will have 
ranges that don't do anything. Not good, IMO. SO...to make INT benchmarks 
work, they would have to look something like this. 
 
Everyman:	8-12 
Competent:	13-17 
Heroic:		18-22 
Incredible:	23-27 
Legendary:	28-32 
 
I know people who prefer low stats will look at this and say "CUCAMANGA!! 
This is obscene!," but its the only way that it makes sense to me. Trust 
me, I tried to make it as close to 20 as possible, but it didn't work. The 
only way around this in MY mind is to invent more uses for INT. 
 
Actually, INT is probably the most problematic. All the other stats have 
their uses at the lower ranges. STR gives you damage increases, every 
point of CON counts for stunning purposes (and you get figured stats), EGO 
has ECV, every point of BODY is precious, and PRE does count for defense 
against presence attacks (although in my benchmark tables I didn't think 
this sufficient, so I put it on the same scale as INT). 
 
The last thing to consider are the figured stats. I did this for myself 
and used the same basic design philosophy, but there were some kinks that 
took me a while to work out to my satisfaction. 
 
SO, that about sums it up for now. I don't know how much more I'll be able 
to write on the subject because I'm really busy these days. 
 
PARTING THOUGHTS 
 
1) Hi Vox, Hi Phantom. Drop me a line! 
 
2) I'm with Vox, Phantom and Rat on the DEX/SPD debate. The ranges they 
are pushing for have worked beautifully in my running campaigns and I 
think they are far more realistic as well as true to the genre. 
 
3) Someone mentioned that in Marvel the Thing has a low Agility stat, but 
I high Fighting stat and this justifies a higher DEX. I think it justifies 
a lower DEX. I always took the Fighting stat to be more akin to combat 
levels than anything else. 
 
4) Someone mentioned that they agreed with Vox's logic, but disagreed with 
changing longstanding HERO convention. Why bother with a 5th Edition then? 
The point of new editions is to modify the system towards perfection after 
continued playtesting (which has gone on for over 15 years now). 
 
5) If anybody is interested in seeing my benchmarks I can post the Web 
Address where they reside. 
 
 
See ya in the funny pages, 
 
 
Dragonfly 
 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 19:58:21 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero System Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Wish: Benchmarks (was: A Sample Character) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 8 Jan 1998 aregalad@miami.edu wrote: 
 
<snip> 
 
> benchmarks, but it has two problems. The first of these is that HERO 
> asserts that characters that are normal humans by conception can buy stats 
> above the listed "maxima" - they just have to pay double for it. Since no 
> other limits exist, a patient player will buy a 40 DEX for a "normal 
> human" and claim that he is still within conception because he paid double 
> for it.  
 
Except someone with NCM _can't_ buy any primary characteristic beyond 30. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 20:15:57 -0500 
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net 
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood 
Subject: Re: Godzilla any tips?? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Looks pretty tough. I am glad you added the damage reduction. My mistake 
was not having reduction and a Wolverine Wannabee maxed on his kill and 
STUNNED Godzilla. Boy was my face red. They made quick work of him after 
that so I had him fall on the heros. : -) 
 
Kev 
 
 
KaosTym wrote: 
 
>      GODZILLA ( POST 1985 - Pre Destroyah) 
>    115 Strength 
>    10 Dexterity 
>    60 Constitution 
>    70 Body 
>     7 Intelligence 
>     8 Ego 
>    60 Presence 
>     4 Comeliness 
>    40 Physical Defens 
>    30 Energy Defense 
>     3 Speed 
>    40 Recovery 
>   120 Endurance 
>   170 Stun 
> 
> DISADVANTAGES         BASE: 100+PTS 
> Physical Lim,"Animal             25 
>  Intelligence",all the time, 
>  fully 
> Berserk,"When takes Body",very   35 
>  common,occur 14-,recover 8- 
> Hunted,"G Force ",less           20 
>  powerful,non-combat influence, 
>  harsh,appear 14- 
> Rep,"Radioactive Reptile",occur  20 
>  14-,extreme reputation 
> Distinctive,"Radioactive         15 
> Kaiju Bonus                     969 
> 
>  PTS             POWERS              END 
>  140 21 LVLS Growth (stats already 
>      included),Always On(-1/2),0 END 
>      Persistent(+1)                    0 
>  264 8D6 RKA,"Radioactive Breath Lim 
>      :  last 2d6 vs. Inanimate 
>      objects",-1/2 Var Lim(-1/4),Area 
>      Effect(+1 1/2),cone,x4 Increased 
>      Area,1/2 END(+1/4)               16 
>   75 20D6 HA,"Tail Sweep",1/2 END 
>      (+1/4)                            3 
>   8 10 Mental Defense 
>  64 6D6 Absorption (Radiation), 
>     "Radiation",4 Max Increase,vs 
>     SFX (all powers),Always On(-1/2) 
>   86 40" Running (Radiation),has turn 
>     mode,0 END(+1/2)                  0 
>   40 75% Damage Reduction (PD) 
>      (Radiation),resistant,Always On 
>      (-1/2) 
>   40 75% Damage Reduction (ED) 
>     (Radiation),resistant,Always On 
>     (-1/2) 
>   25 +38" SWIM (Radiation),doesn't 
>      add to figured 
>   22 11" KB Resist (Radiation) 
 
 
 
 
 
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 20:34:17 -0500 
From: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: KevLord@worldnet.att.net 
Organization: Courts of Kirkwood 
Subject: Duplicates appear. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I like the idea of a character that can summon temporal copies of 
themself from the future. Obviously Duplication is the method of choice. 
But I would like the "copies" to "pop" into  existence and not 
necessarily in the same hex as the prime character. Many times it would 
be helpful to "pop" in behind someone, or in another room(all within 
line of sight). Now Summon starts to look pretty good. Does anyone have 
a similar hero/villain and how do/would you represent this ability? 
 
Kev 
 
OBTW:If you have a character feel free to email me the stats. 
 
 
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net 
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 21:00:57 -0500 
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> 
>This *is* a tenuous parallel, because even Cap -- with his colossally 
>impressive and exaggerated musculature -- is explicitly a 20 STR (800 lb. 
>maximum).  Created by a HERO player, he'd probably have a 30. :/ 
 
I agree it's tenous. But yes, I'd give Captain America higher than 20 
strength, except during those periods when he's not enhanced by the super 
soldier formula.  I did him once for a campaign I ran years ago in 
university and gave him a 25 strength.  But I don't see the HCM as the 
absolute a human in TV, movies, whatever, can reach.  With tremendous 
training they can go higher.  The peak of human physical ability, like 
Capt. A, is above 20. 
 
> 
>I have no objections to being higher than average.  I have an objection to 
>being higher than MAXIMUM, when we're still talking about ostensibly 
>"normal" humans. 
 
If that was truly meant as the absolute MAXIMUM, then why are human's 
allowed to buy above it at double cost?  It's not even listed as an 
optional rule, it's the standard way to handle it. 
 
I have no trouble with campaigns that use lower limits.  There are alot of 
pluses to do so.  But there is nothing wrong with a game that uses higher 
characteristics, either.  It's simply a matter of what type of game you want. 
 
TokyoMark 
 
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net 
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 21:33:29 -0500 
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net> 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>Sure, you _can_ win that fast. However, between skilled fighters in 
>good shape, it can take a lot longer, and usually does. This isn't a 
>case of someone being blindsided, this is a case of two skilled 
>fighter facing each other, expecting to be attacked. 
> 
>Jiu-jitsu is a serious and effective fighting art. Jiu-jistu matches 
>(not judo, these are much more brutal) do not take three seconds. 
>Neither do bouts in most martial arts, no matter how serious. 
> 
 
I agree, but in all fairness, grappling matches will almost always go 
longer than striking matches.  Striking, Bruce lee's strength, can end a 
match fairly fast, especially if one striker is much better than the other. 
 
Tank Abbott, the foremost practitioner of Bubba Fu, almost always wins in 
two minutes or less, when he wins at all. 
 
>The bouts are frequently not timed. Nevertheless, they often last for 
>fifteen or twenty minutes. These people are serious, and are highly 
>skilled fighters. The most popular fighting arts are jiu-jutsu 
>variations, though everything from Sambo to Greco-Roman wrestling is 
>employed. 
 
Especially Brazilian Jujutsu, Luta Livre, and also Muy Thai.  Someday I'll 
get off my butt and finish typing up Sambo, then move on to some other of 
these styles. 
 
> 
>Even if for some reason you do not consider these people to be among 
>the greatest fighters on Earth, it is definitely true that they are 
>skilled fighters serious about hurting each other, but their bouts do 
>_not_ last three seconds. 
 
There are several MMA fighters I'd call among the best in the world because 
they have proved their skills against various styles. 
 
TokyoMark 
 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 21:07:54 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
> Personally I'd rate Ben Grimm at SPD 3 DEX 14 - and note that he's *not* at 
> the minimum SPD/DEX for a brick - he is a jockish type (remember, he was a 
> college football hero). One could make a case for SPD 4 DEX 18, but I'd take 
> that as implying a campaign with somewhat inflated SPD and DEX scores. If SPD 
> 4 DEX 18 is given as the *minimum* for a brick, then Ben Grim would be higher 
> than this - something like SPD 4-5 DEX 20-23+ - and I'd ask Ghost@softfarm.com 
> to lend me some of his pills :-) 
 
 
	Ugh.  The last is a bit high for my tastes.  He'd be somewhere 
between 15 and 18 DEX and 3 or 4 SPD.  The brick minimum, of course, is 0 
DEX and 1 SPD.  Of course, I've never seen anyone actually _take_ that. 
I've seen the occasional 10 DEX 2 SPD character, however. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 22:56:35 EST 
Cc: Champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long) 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 98-01-08 02:03:54 EST, you write: 
 
<< Actually, the BBB recommends two possible comparisons-- Active Points 
 and Damage Class. Thus, 60 STR, no matter what it cost, is still DC 
 12. Your Armor Piercing One Hex Area Effect is 1d6/2DC, and therefore 
 would not be comparable. 
  
 Damage dice is worthless as a comparison, the way you are using it. DC 
 is the way to go, and balances 60 STR to 12d6 EB, no matter what the 
 price of STR. 
  
 >> 
 
Damage Class is determined by taking the Active Points and dividing by five... 
HSR pg 158.  So no, it's not correct to say that no matter what a 60 Str cost, 
it would still be equal to a 12d6 EB.  If Str were to cost 2/1, then a 60 Str 
would be 24 Damage Classes, vs a 12d6 EB of 12 Damage Classes... not an 
allowable disparity in most games.  The 12d6 EB Armor Piercing, One Hex Area 
Effect would, though, cost the same 24 Damage Classes.  Which was why I was 
offering that if Str was 2/1, and a GM allowed a 60 Str, then it would seem 
that he would be bound by either the Active Point *or* the Damage Class limits 
and would have to allow *any* 24 Damage Class construct in his/her game.   
I'm not trying to make a big fuss over this, I'm just trying to show that by 
raising the cost of Str, you're going to upset the way GM's use limits to keep 
balance in their campaigns.  I just can't buy the "well, Str is an 
exception... Bricks get 120 Active Points (or 24 DC), everybody else gets half 
that." 
 
'Lynx 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Hero Games Web Update 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:36:41 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
On Thursday, January 08, 1998 9:00 AM, Filksinger 
 
 
<snip> 
>I didn't find any new Digital Hero this time. I think they updated 
the 
>convention listing. 
> 
>Which reminds me, Rustycon is this weekend... 
> 
 
Uh, for any people in the Seattle area who are confused, that should 
be _next_ weekend. Please don't hurry down to the Tacoma Sheraton. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 21:03:39 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thursday, January 08, 1998 11:12 AM, Eric Burns wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
>Well, I take your point and partly agree with you (I always like it 
when 
>game systems seperate agility from manual dexterity), but I think 
that 
>if Champs added another characteristic, it would get too confusing. 
>I think one of the weaknesses of Fuzion is the deluge of 
characteristics 
>and optional characteristics that a GM must familiarize himself with. 
 
 
I considered that possibility and dismissed it over ten years ago. I 
don't want to add new characteristics. I don't mind Fuzion's system, 
though, since it starts with only about the same number of stats as 
hero. Only when you get to optional stats does it get excessive, and 
you can just not use them. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 00:09:29 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero System Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Wish: Benchmarks (was: A Sample Character) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
 
> At 07:58 PM 1/8/98 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
> >On Thu, 8 Jan 1998 aregalad@miami.edu wrote: 
> >> benchmarks, but it has two problems. The first of these is that HERO 
> >> asserts that characters that are normal humans by conception can buy 
> >> stats above the listed "maxima" - they just have to pay double for it. 
> >> Since no other limits exist, a patient player will buy a 40 DEX for a 
> >> "normal human" and claim that he is still within conception because he 
> >> paid double for it.  
> > 
> >Except someone with NCM _can't_ buy any primary characteristic beyond 30. 
>  
> HELL-o! Where in Samhaine did you get this idea?!? I don't ever recall 
> reading ANY absolute limit on buying characteristics over NCM -- they just 
> cost more. 
 
IT'S right here!  On page... uh... lemme see... Wait!  It's in Fantasy 
Hero!  Uh... DI?  3rd Edition Champs?  Uhmm...  hmmm where did I see that? 
Did I ever see that?   
 
Okay, so somewhen I must have confused the stat lists.  Still, I was 
pretty positive I saw that somewhere.  Doesn't make a bad houserule IMO. 
 
I think I'll just go back to eating Cheesiepoofs on the couch. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
From: HayVern <HayVern@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 00:23:12 EST 
Subject: Re: Military HEROs 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I was the one who said he had prior military experiance. 
 
U.S. Navy Seabees for five and 1/2 years of sheer bliss. last 1 1/2 years 
spent teaching combat defensive tactics to the rest of the West Coast 
Battalions. 
 
From: HayVern <HayVern@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 00:36:03 EST 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun lotto 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>Without the Hit Location chart, the Stun lotto 
>can give you this effect, but it is impossible to get the effect, "I 
>shot him in the head with a single round from a ..357 Magnum. He's 
>dead." In fact, you _can't_ kill him with a single round from a .357, 
>if he has 10 BODY. 
 
Actually a .357 does 1 1/2d6. Considering the most often rolled number is 7 on 
2d6. We'll say that you rolled a 3 on the full die, and a 4 on the 1/2 die. 
 
That would make a roll of five. Consulting the hit location chart we find that 
BodyX for the head is X2. That would make 10 body to the target. Effectively 
rendering him 0 body. That would be good enough for dead on any NPC that I may 
have, and would require a paramedic to keep him alive otherwise. Don't forget 
the impairment and disabling rules sections either. 
 
I like the way the system plays out. I played Twilight 2000 for a long time, 
and found that that game is pretty deadly if played correctly. At times almost 
too deadly. I like the fact a Player Character could take a hit to the head 
wearing Armor, and be able to function. It is deadly enough still that it 
creates a challenge for the players as well. Knowing that one bad move could 
off their character. 
 
And remember guys, if you are the gamemaster you don't have to let the 
player's see your rolls. If you want to keep a player alive that would have 
otherwise been dead, then you have that power. It's tougher to kill a 
character in that matter. I will never fudge a dice roll as a GM to off a 
character. An actual roll that kills a character will always be revealed and 
shown to that player to let him know, if I want to kill him. 
 
From: "Roger A. Wesson, Jr." <uraeus@bunt.com> 
Subject: Finding Other Gamers 
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 07:15:35 +0100 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
  I was wondering if any one with a web site has put together a listing 
of gamers, HERO or otherwise. 
  It would be nice if you were looking for players, or a GM, to go to a list 
and see if there is anyone in your area. 
 
  If anyone was thinking of starting such a list, I would recommend only 
listing a person's email address or the email address thru which they can 
be contacted, and NOT any actual home addresses or phone numbers. 
  Then people could be lumped together by state or overall region, and 
folks could email them to find out more. 
 
-Roger 
 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Finding Other Gamers 
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 22:49:43 -0800 (PST) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
>   I was wondering if any one with a web site has put together a listing 
> of gamers, HERO or otherwise. 
>   It would be nice if you were looking for players, or a GM, to go to a list 
> and see if there is anyone in your area. 
> 
 
	http://www.webrpg.com 
 
It has a listing for players and gamemasters throughout the world. 
 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 02:53:37 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net> 
> Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 9:00 PM 
>  
> > 
> >This *is* a tenuous parallel, because even Cap -- with his colossally 
> >impressive and exaggerated musculature -- is explicitly a 20 STR (800 lb. 
> >maximum).  Created by a HERO player, he'd probably have a 30. :/ 
>  
> I agree it's tenous. But yes, I'd give Captain America higher than 20 
> strength, except during those periods when he's not enhanced by the super 
> soldier formula.  I did him once for a campaign I ran years ago in 
> university and gave him a 25 strength.  But I don't see the HCM as the 
> absolute a human in TV, movies, whatever, can reach.  With tremendous 
> training they can go higher.  The peak of human physical ability, like 
> Capt. A, is above 20. 
 
I agree with TokyoMark on Cap's STR.  The ability to lift a given mass is not 
the same thing as pressing that mass, which is how TOHOTMU estimates a hero's 
strength.  That final press of a couple feet above the shoulders to full arm 
extension can be a killer.  On my old job at a home center store, I sometimes 
had to lift, carry, and load into vehicles objects exceeding 100 lbs., but I 
sure wouldn't have attempted pressing such weights above my head by myself to 
put the load onto a high tier or shelf.  I wasn't that eager to earn workers 
comp. 
 
If Cap can press 800 lbs., he should be able to simply lift and support quite a 
bit more.  I also recall an old Avengers issue when Cap strained his way 
through a workout of doing 500-lb. curls.  Incidentally, I do sometimes wonder 
what secret ninja training Seeker went through that can rival the effects of 
the super-soldier serum.  
 
I'd rate the Kingpin at about a 23 STR and Wolverine a 20.  But aside from 
these rare examples of truly unusual persons, I think it's hard to justify 
phenomenally athletic normals who are not the huge fellows who compete in 
"World's Strongest Man" contests, athletes like Daredevil, the Punisher, or 
Batman, as having a STR above 18. 
 
For the sake of comparison, does anyone know what is the world record for the 
military press? 
 
>  
> > 
> >I have no objections to being higher than average.  I have an objection to 
> >being higher than MAXIMUM, when we're still talking about ostensibly 
> >"normal" humans. 
>  
> If that was truly meant as the absolute MAXIMUM, then why are human's 
> allowed to buy above it at double cost?  It's not even listed as an 
> optional rule, it's the standard way to handle it. 
>  
> I have no trouble with campaigns that use lower limits.  There are alot of 
> pluses to do so.  But there is nothing wrong with a game that uses higher 
> characteristics, either.  It's simply a matter of what type of game you want. 
>  
> TokyoMark 
>  
 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 04:03:10 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> I'd rate the Kingpin at about a 23 STR and Wolverine a 20.  But aside from 
> these rare examples of truly unusual persons, I think it's hard to justify 
> phenomenally athletic normals who are not the huge fellows who compete in 
> "World's Strongest Man" contests, athletes like Daredevil, the Punisher, or 
> Batman, as having a STR above 18. 
>  
> For the sake of comparison, does anyone know what is the world record for the 
> military press? 
 
Well, I know in Olympic weight lifting, where you are required to lift the 
weight above your head, in the 1992 games Aleksandr Chemerkin managed to 
lift 450 kgs, over 900 pounds.  And this was not a world record. 
 
TokyoMark 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 07:42:25 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Characteristics Too High 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:26 AM 1/8/98 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>At 07:18 AM 1/8/98 -0700, Curtis Gibson wrote: 
>>To draw a tenous parallel; in an old book "how to draw comics the Marvel 
>>way" they have a picture of a fairly muscular young man, drawn fairly 
>>accurately. Then they place him next to Cap. The fairly muscular young 
>>man looks like a _wimp_. The book goes on to state that in drawing 
>>comics one must exagerate such things because those being drawn are 
>>Super heroes.. not just run of the mill heroes. 
> 
>This *is* a tenuous parallel, because even Cap -- with his colossally 
>impressive and exaggerated musculature -- is explicitly a 20 STR (800 lb. 
>maximum).  Created by a HERO player, he'd probably have a 30. :/ 
 
   Question:  Is this 800 lbs a bench press, or a dead lift?  The things I 
know about weightlifting could be counted on one's fingers, but one of them 
happens to be that what one can bench press is typically about half what 
one can dead lift.  If that 800 pound max is a bench press, then Cap's STR 
would come to about 25, which is what I'd give him from observation and such. 
 
>>In most cases I think that the higher than expected strength on a non 
>>brick character is just that; the player wanting his _super_ hero to be 
>>better than average. It's done out of character ego, and player desire 
>>for color; not just for 'point-crockiness'. (note earier in this 
>>paragraph I did say 'in most cases'). 
> 
>I have no objections to being higher than average.  I have an objection to 
>being higher than MAXIMUM, when we're still talking about ostensibly 
>"normal" humans. 
 
   I don't object to higher than maximum, but I do object to *a lot* higher 
than maximum unless there's a logical cause for it.  In my campaigns, a 
character with NCM may spend *no more* than 40 points total (after the cost 
doubling) in Characteristics above the max. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 07:43:03 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: INT Benchmarks/Granularity 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:27 AM 1/8/98 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>>Now lets take INT. The only in-play significance of INT is INT and PER 
>>rolls. If you use the same breakdown that you do with DEX, you will have 
>>ranges that don't do anything. Not good, IMO. SO...to make INT benchmarks 
>>work, they would have to look something like this. 
>> 
>>Everyman: 8-12 
>>Competent: 13-17 
>>Heroic:  18-22 
>>Incredible: 23-27 
>>Legendary: 28-32 
>> 
>>I know people who prefer low stats will look at this and say "CUCAMANGA!! 
>>This is obscene!," but its the only way that it makes sense to me. Trust 
>>me, I tried to make it as close to 20 as possible, but it didn't work. The 
>>only way around this in MY mind is to invent more uses for INT. 
> 
>Well, yes, but inventing more uses for INT would be a good thing -- either 
>that, or find a way to increase the granularity of the system (I personally 
>like Erol K. Bayburt's "Percentile HERO" rules, but I wouldn't recommend it 
>for a 5th Edition revision). 
 
   One thing I do to increase the "granularity" of INT is to regard some 
things that are "one per 5 points of INT" as "one per 5 *full* points of 
INT."  For example, Powers that can be active at one time.  Granted, this 
particular one is a minor consideration (especially since it's an optional 
rule recommended only for heroic-level fantasy campaigns), but it's a start. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 07:46:15 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 04:03 AM 1/9/98 -0500, Tokyo Mark wrote: 
>> I'd rate the Kingpin at about a 23 STR and Wolverine a 20.  But aside from 
>> these rare examples of truly unusual persons, I think it's hard to justify 
>> phenomenally athletic normals who are not the huge fellows who compete in 
>> "World's Strongest Man" contests, athletes like Daredevil, the Punisher, or 
>> Batman, as having a STR above 18. 
>>  
>> For the sake of comparison, does anyone know what is the world record 
for the 
>> military press? 
> 
>Well, I know in Olympic weight lifting, where you are required to lift the 
>weight above your head, in the 1992 games Aleksandr Chemerkin managed to 
>lift 450 kgs, over 900 pounds.  And this was not a world record. 
 
   The last world record for lifting (just plain lifting off the ground) 
was nigh upon 1100 pounds the last time I checked, and that was before 
Champions was published. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 08:05:03 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun lotto 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:36 AM 1/9/98 EST, HayVern wrote: 
>>Without the Hit Location chart, the Stun lotto 
>>can give you this effect, but it is impossible to get the effect, "I 
>>shot him in the head with a single round from a ..357 Magnum. He's 
>>dead." In fact, you _can't_ kill him with a single round from a .357, 
>>if he has 10 BODY. 
> 
>Actually a .357 does 1 1/2d6. Considering the most often rolled number is 
7 on 
>2d6. We'll say that you rolled a 3 on the full die, and a 4 on the 1/2 die. 
> 
>That would make a roll of five. Consulting the hit location chart we find 
that 
>BodyX for the head is X2. That would make 10 body to the target. Effectively 
>rendering him 0 body. That would be good enough for dead on any NPC that I 
may 
>have, and would require a paramedic to keep him alive otherwise. Don't forget 
>the impairment and disabling rules sections either. 
 
   Forget an average roll; take the maximum roll.  Assume two 6's, which 
would give a BODY score of 9.  Apply to the head, x2 BODY, for 18 BODY. 
The 10 BODY character is now at -8 BODY.  Unless someone makes a Paramedic 
Roll on this guy within a two Turns (or the optional Bleeding rules are 
used and he is rather lucky on his 4d6 Bleeding Rolls), he's dead, Jim. 
   Back to your average Roll, though, he could survive that, though he'd 
certainly suffer from Disabling effects if those rules are used. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 08:11:38 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:34 PM 1/8/98 -0500, Kevin J. McClain wrote: 
>I like the idea of a character that can summon temporal copies of 
>themself from the future. Obviously Duplication is the method of choice. 
>But I would like the "copies" to "pop" into  existence and not 
>necessarily in the same hex as the prime character. Many times it would 
>be helpful to "pop" in behind someone, or in another room(all within 
>line of sight). Now Summon starts to look pretty good. Does anyone have 
>a similar hero/villain and how do/would you represent this ability? 
 
   I don't have any chasacters currently in my stable that do anything like 
this, but I have in the past.  I'd represent this as Summon with Range. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 08:35:46 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:22 AM 1/8/98 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>A character who increases their Figured Characteristics via STR is 
>taking advantage of how STR works, both in the game and real life. If 
>I decided to get harder to knock out, more resistant to blunt impacts, 
>and increase my ability to recover from fatigue, strength building 
>exercises would be a major part of it. In fact, I'm not certain how I 
>would go about building up those three in the real world without it. 
 
   Well, the body builds up something through use.  Recovery from fatigue 
can be increased, for example, by getting fatigued and letting your body 
recover from it; this can be done by jogging.  Similarly, the other two 
could be built up by having a couple of friends come over two or three 
times a week and beat you into unconsciousness (though personally I'd opt 
for the weight training). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net 
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 11:38:59 -0500 
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> 
Subject: Re: Finding Other Gamers 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:15 AM 1/9/98 +0100, Roger A. Wesson, Jr. wrote: 
>  I was wondering if any one with a web site has put together a listing 
>of gamers, HERO or otherwise. 
>  It would be nice if you were looking for players, or a GM, to go to a list 
>and see if there is anyone in your area. 
 
 
Roger, 
 
I've recently started such a page at  
http://www.concentric.net/~Cypriot/gaming/m_player.html 
 
So far, it's only intended for the Atlanta area, mostly because  
people read my web page and want to get involved in our game.   
After a while, we can only hold so many people, so I put up these 
addresses for everybody else. 
 
 
======================  ================================================= 
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed  
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is  
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead 
======================  ================================================= 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Cc: "Hero Games" <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 98 17:35:11  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Wish: Benchmarks (was: A Sample Character) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 08 Jan 1998 19:51:50 -0500 (EST), aregalad@miami.edu wrote: 
 
<snip> 
 
>Now lets take INT. The only in-play significance of INT is INT and PER 
>rolls. If you use the same breakdown that you do with DEX, you will have 
>ranges that don't do anything. Not good, IMO. SO...to make INT benchmarks 
>work, they would have to look something like this. 
 
What about all those INT based skill rolls? This completely invalidates 
what follows. 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: KaosLlama <KaosLlama@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:37:33 EST 
Subject: Create a New Netbook? 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
What about it? I think we all can contribute... 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"KevLord@worldnet.att.net\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 98 17:38:03  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 08 Jan 1998 20:34:17 -0500, Kevin J. McClain wrote: 
 
>I like the idea of a character that can summon temporal copies of 
>themself from the future. Obviously Duplication is the method of choice. 
>But I would like the "copies" to "pop" into  existence and not 
>necessarily in the same hex as the prime character. Many times it would 
>be helpful to "pop" in behind someone, or in another room(all within 
>line of sight). Now Summon starts to look pretty good. Does anyone have 
>a similar hero/villain and how do/would you represent this ability? 
 
Try adding the advantage Indirect 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 98 17:43:29  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: STR: Underpriced? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:29:35 -0500, Geoffrey Speare wrote: 
 
>IMO, the STR cost problem is worse in Fantasy Hero than in Champions, because 
>the range is smaller and a couple points of STR can make a lot of difference. 
 
My experience is that it is not a problem at all. Heracles types 
excepted, STR tends to be purchased at a particular level and stays 
there. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 98 17:50:52  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 07 Jan 98 20:52:04 -0800, Opal wrote: 
 
> t > > possibly restrict the other two Frameworks.  
> t >  
> t > Why? They're fine... they actually give reduced utility for their  
> t > reduced  
> t > cost.  
> t >  
>  
>Well, it depends on how attacks work, if you can stack them, sure,  
>otherwise, what's the downside to a Multipower full of attacks -  
>you can only use them what at a time anyway.  
>  
>And then VPPs can be compared to a Multipower with an unlimited  
>number of slots.... since they don't cost infinite points....  
>  
>Niether are as significant as EC.  
 
VPPs have one vital ingredient that the others don't: you can CHANGE 
the power. Also, where ECs fall down is that for maximum benefit, all 
powers in the EC must be of roughly the same AP. This does not hold for 
a MP or VPP. This can be said to be self-limiting. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"Vox Ludator!\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 98 17:59:05  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 07 Jan 1998 08:46:12 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
 
>At 10:04 AM 1/7/98 -0600, bobby farris wrote: 
>>	Okay, I am going to step into this one. The purpose of an Elemental 
>>Control(EC) is to award players that come up with a good character idea. 
>>It is for players that come up with powers grouped around a SFX.  
>>	It is to give players that come up with a consistent idea and 
>>background a reward.  
> 
>I do not accept the notion that a character *deserves* a reward merely 
>because the SFX of his powers all match.  The Human Torch is not 
>automatically a concept preferable to Batman, Iron Man, or Green Lantern. 
> 
>> Note that this means the GM has the right to deny a player the use of 
>> the EC if the GM feels that player is just using it as a point crock  
>> as you put it. 
> 
>Since EC has no mechanical effect, it's always just used as a point crock. 
>It's merely a point crock which many people feel is forgivable 
 
It only has no mechanical effect if you as the GM say so. I seldom use 
ECs, and don't play with large ones a la Champions, but it has 
previously been suggested that once a power within the EC has been 
Drained to the point where the EC bonus is counted (usually half) then 
the other EC powers should suffer equally sounds fine to me. 
 
Example: Ice Girl has a 25 AP ice EC with two 50 AP powers and a 60 AP 
power. Power #1 is drained 25 AP without affecting the other powers, 
but once it's drained 26 AP, powers 2 and 3 each lose 1 AP. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"Vox Ludator!\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 98 18:03:08  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 08 Jan 1998 11:34:58 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
 
>There is at least one thing wrong with a game with higher limits: "normal" 
>humans can huck Yugos. :] 
 
Only with the aid of a bargepole... 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 13:21:29 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Create a New Netbook? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, KaosLlama wrote: 
 
> What about it? I think we all can contribute... 
>  
Uh... about what? 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:49:34 -0800 
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger) 
Subject: Re: New Netbook... 
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
     I think it's a great idea! I can see it now... 
      
     The Ultimate Super Net. 
      
     Rules for entangles, only to catch fish. 
     Rules for force wall, only to stop volleyballs and badminton birdies. 
     LS: Self-contained hair, OIF: Hairnet 
      
     Anything else? 
      
     Richard 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: aregalad@miami.edu 
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 14:32:20 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Wish: Benchmarks (was: A Sample Character) 
Cc: "aregalad@miami.edu" <aregalad@miami.edu&> 
        "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org&> Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> >Now lets take INT. The only in-play significance of INT is INT and PER 
> >rolls. If you use the same breakdown that you do with DEX, you will have 
> >ranges that don't do anything. Not good, IMO. SO...to make INT benchmarks 
> >work, they would have to look something like this. 
>  
> What about all those INT based skill rolls? This completely invalidates 
> what follows. 
 
 
Actually, you have just proved my point and validated my observations 
about INT. You are right about ONE thing. When I said INT is only good for 
Perception and INT rolls I neglected to mention skill rolls (I kind of 
lumped them with INT rolls - my bad). The thing is that skills based on 
INT and INT rolls have the same breakdown - hence they have the same 
problem. Nothing about my argument is invalidated. Allow me to 
illustrate: 
 
First benchmarks that work (IMO). 
 
Proposed DEX Benchmarks: 
 
DEX	Label		CV	ROLL 
9-11	Everyman	3-4	 11< 
12-14	Competent	4-5	 11< - 12< 
15-17	Heroic		5-6	 12< 
18-20	Incredible	6-7	 13< 
21-23	Legendary	7-8	 13< - 14< 
 
You will note that every level of DEX means gives an increase in CV (at 
the high end). Furthermore, every point of DEX counts for initiative. The 
DEX roll (and the Roll for all DEX skills) does NOT change every level, 
but thats okay because you get plenty more for the points you spend on 
DEX. 
 
Now lets assume that HERO uses these benchmarks and apply's the same 
breakdown for INT. 
 
INT		LABEL		ROLL 
9-11		Everyman	11< 
12-14		Competent	11< - 12< 
14-17		Heroic		12< 
18-20		Incredible	13< 
21-23		Legendary	13< - 14< 
 
Unfortunately INT does nothing more than provide Rolls of some sort 
whether they be INT rolls, PER rolls and yes SKILL rolls as well. Right 
off the bat you have the problem that there are "useless" points of INT in 
terms of game-play. Why have a 10 if you can have a 9 and have the same 
effect? You will also note that there is absolutely NO difference between 
having a HEROIC INT and having a COMPETENT INT (at the upper ranges). This 
makes for ineffective benchmarks since (IMO) every benchmark level should 
make a quantifiable difference in game play. The only way to achieve this 
(without adding new uses for INT - something I am NOT opposed to) is to 
make the breakoff points for the INT benchmarks be the important numbers - 
the ones that make a difference in INT, PER, and SKILL Rolls. The table 
would HAVE to look something like this. 
 
INT	LABEL			ROLL 
8-12	Everyman		11< 
13-17	Competent		12< 
18-22	Heroic			13< 
23-27	Incredible		14< 
28-32	Legendary		15< 
 
You will note that each level starts with an increase in INT, PER and 
SKILL Roll. There are still alot of "useless" numbers, but there is no 
overlap between categories. 
 
I hope this has clarified my point somewhat and will allow you to consider 
my thoughts more deeply. 
 
FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO WANT TO SEE MY BENCHMARK TABLES. 
 
1) I am embarassed to say that I have lost my own web address. Its still 
up, but I don't know how to call it up. It got lost while I was shifting 
desks (and cleaning out my computer) at work. I will try to get it off one 
of my friends tonight and will post it tomorrow. 
 
2) My benchmarks go beyond the human range. They are heavily based off of 
the DC Heroes, Marvel Super Heroes and Fuzion benchmarks. One encouraging 
thing was to see that these VERY different RPGs actually agreed to a large 
extent on what the breakdown of stats should be - especially within the 
human range. 
 
SOME OTHER THOUGHTS 
 
Vox's suggestions for new INT uses were clever. I don't think HERO would 
do anything so drastic, but if they did I would rethink my INT Benchmarks 
in a second. I'd really prefer to keept them as close to 20 as possible. 
 
 
Take care, 
 
 
Dragonfly 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:34:36 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Done to death dept. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Okay... I know this has been done a lot before, but this time, I'm trying 
to design the character and I don't have all the previous power ideas 
handy.  So... 
 
The character is one of those 'can't die' types.  He cannot be killed by 
any means (short of serious magical power). 
 
The character Regenerates very quickly, and can re-attach lost limbs (or 
regrow new ones).  Even loosing the head won't kill him.  The character is 
immune to disease and poisons and can be burned to ashes and still reform. 
 
Finally, the character has some control over severed limbs, beig able to 
control them at a short distance. 
 
My power ideas: 
 
+30 Body, Invisible Power Effects Sight (+1/2), Does not Affect Figured 
(-1/2), Only to stave off point of death (-2) 
 
Does not bleed 
 
LS: Immune to aging, disease (& posions), radiation, does not eat or 
sleep. 
 
Damage Reduction (Phys and energy) vs Stun only 
 
+10 CON, not vs figured (-1/2) Only to resist stunning (-0) 
 
Regeneration (A huge amount).  Now, this being a camapaign specific power, 
would it be unbalancing to allow the Regen as written to re-attach, regrow 
limbs?  If not, any suggested Advantage value to do that? 
 
I was also considering a Body Aid to instantly regrow limbs.  Does this 
sound like a good/bad idea? 
 
And using severed limbs at range?  Is this an odd form of TK? 
 
Thanks. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:40:28 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: New Netbook... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote: 
 
>      I think it's a great idea! I can see it now... 
>       
>      The Ultimate Super Net. 
>       
>      Rules for entangles, only to catch fish. 
>      Rules for force wall, only to stop volleyballs and badminton birdies. 
>      LS: Self-contained hair, OIF: Hairnet 
>       
>      Anything else? 
>       
 
Rules for when you're hit by an Aid and a Drain to the same 
characteristic at the same time, and which don't completely balance out. 
You know, net gains and net losses. 
 
Also, special rules for acrobatics without a net. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net 
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 15:53:18 -0500 
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> 
Subject: Re: Done to death dept. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:34 PM 1/9/98 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>Okay... I know this has been done a lot before, but this time, I'm trying 
>to design the character and I don't have all the previous power ideas 
>handy.  So... 
> 
>The character is one of those 'can't die' types.  He cannot be killed by 
>any means (short of serious magical power). 
> 
 
You're right ... we've seen this thread before.  But that doesn't 
mean we can't go through it again.  There's new people on the list 
all the time. 
 
You will get lots of suggestions for this sort of character, ranging 
from Life Support to everybody's favorite fall-back, Transform. 
 
IMHO, the easiest and cheapest way is to just agree between you and 
your GM that this character WILL NOT DIE.  Just make it a special 
effect.  Then buy enough body to cover you for normal damage  
situations.   
 
This way, you can go into battle knowing that no matter how ridiculously 
overmatched you are, tactics, strategy, teamwork, backup, etc. are not 
necessary because you cannot be killed. 
 
In fact, since you have the regen and can't-be-killed characteristics, 
you may as well just go ahead and fix it so he can't be knocked out 
either.  God himself could attack and he'll withstand it.  
 
For the sake of the world, I hope this guy has heroic values! 
 
 
======================  ================================================= 
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed  
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is  
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead 
======================  ================================================= 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 14:58:09 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:59 PM 1/9/98, qts wrote: 
>It only has no mechanical effect if you as the GM say so. I seldom use 
>ECs, and don't play with large ones a la Champions, but it has 
>previously been suggested that once a power within the EC has been 
>Drained to the point where the EC bonus is counted (usually half) then 
>the other EC powers should suffer equally sounds fine to me. 
 
Incorrect.  The proper way to say this is "it only HAS a mechanical effect 
if you as the GM say so" (emphasis mine) -- no mechanical effect is the 
by-the-book interpretation, whereas the Adjustment Power effects are a house 
ruling. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 13:19:44 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Character so far 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:49 PM 1/7/98 -0800, Brian Wong wrote: 
>Hello; 
> 
> Just want to let everyone know the speedster I've 
>been getting advice for is now up on my webpage. 
>At http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/cast.html 
>Look for Tao Kuai, the first one listed. 
 
   Looks pretty good to these tired eyes.  Only a few quibbles: 
   1) I think Disadvantages that are part of a package are supposed to be 
in the Disdvantages column. 
   2) Consider Personal Immunity for the Shockwave Vibrations Power. 
   3) The connection to the Speed Force might be better represented with 
Dependence rather than Susceptibility. 
   4) Does that Reputation really need to be that high?  I know I'd think 
twice about allowing a beginning character with a Reputation Roll of 14-. 
(I might do it; I'd just think twice about it.) 
   Others might have additional beefs, but those are my only real concerns. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:45:32 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: KAs and the Stun Lotto 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> Not to disparage you - it is a good idea - but it's the 'Restricted 
> Stun Multiple' - I first saw it at a DunDraCon in... I think it was 
> '87. 
 
	Predates me.  I wasn't even started on D&D at that time. 
 
>  t > stopping power.  Notice, however, we still don't have the real upper 
>  t > end. 
>  t > Just an increased chance for the 4* multiplier. 
>  t > 
> 
> OK, this is new.  I like it. 
 
	Thanks, so do I.  My favorite part of this system is how it makes 
increased Stun mult more effective while making it less obscene. 
 
>  t >  And so on, adding 1's to the bottom.  I'd perhaps change the cost 
>  t > to -1/4, or else a high BOD. low STUN KA gets too cheap.  The 
>  t > "decreased 
>  t > mult" is one of the possibly unbalancing parts of this power. 
>  t > 
> 
> Well no Stun Mult is supposed to be a -1/2 (or was it 3/4?) .. 
 
	I'd actually make it worth more, perhaps -1, perhaps -1 1/2.  That 
really loses a lot. 
 
> I used - or at least advocated, when I wasn't running - the Restricted 
> Stun Multiple for a few years after I first heard of it.  This version 
> looks even better because of the way you're adding Increased STNx - 
> I'm not sure I understand the progression though... but it looks good.  :) 
 
 
	Hmmm.  Lets see if I can describe it a little better.  Look at all 
the possible Stun multiples as a set of numbers working like this: 
 
	. . 1 . 1 . 2 . 2 . 3 . 3 . 4 . 4 . 5 . 5 . 6 . 6 . . 
 
	Attacks at the normal level use the set from the last one to the 
first 4, ie:  1 . 2 . 2 . 3 . 3 . 4. 
 
	However, any increased or decreased multipliers merely remove one 
number from one end and add one to the other ende.  Increased Stun mults 
take away from the low end and add to the high.  The thing to remember is 
that there is always going to be either two of each multiple, or two 
once-appearing multiples at either end: 1 . 1 . 2 . 2 . 3 . 3 
						or 
					1 . 2 . 2 . 3 . 3 . 4 
						or 
					2 . 2 . 3 . 3 . 4 . 4 
						or 
					2 . 3 . 3 . 4 . 4 . 5 
 
	Do you see?  The set is just shifting left. 
 
	Ok.  Now have any of the number crunchers figured the percentages 
on this creation?  I'd like to know how it compares to KAs with the 
regular Stun Mult and/or normal attacks. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: ghost@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 15:55:20 -0600 
From: Bryce Berggren <ghost@softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: INT Benchmarks/Granularity 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:43 AM 1/9/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>At 09:27 AM 1/8/98 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>>Well, yes, but inventing more uses for INT would be a good thing -- either 
>>that, or find a way to increase the granularity of the system (I personally 
>>like Erol K. Bayburt's "Percentile HERO" rules, but I wouldn't recommend it 
>>for a 5th Edition revision). 
> 
>   One thing I do to increase the "granularity" of INT is to regard some 
>things that are "one per 5 points of INT" as "one per 5 *full* points of 
>INT."  For example, Powers that can be active at one time.  Granted, this 
>particular one is a minor consideration (especially since it's an optional 
>rule recommended only for heroic-level fantasy campaigns), but it's a start. 
 
I don't really see how this does anything to /increase/ granularity; instead 
of 3, 18, 23, etc. being the only INT scores with a point, 10, 15, 20, etc. 
become the only INT scores with a point. 
 
I already know the reaction to this will be loud shouts of how stupid this is, 
but I'll throw it out there anyway: what about changing the skill base from 
(CHAR/5)+9 to (CHAR/3)+8? 
 
INT/DEX         Old Base        New Base 
  3                      9       9 
  5                     10      10 
  8                     11      11 
 10                     11      11 
 13                     12      12 
 15                     12      13 
 18                     13      14 
 20                     13      15 
 23                     14      16 
 25                     14      16 
 28                     15      17 
 30                     15      18 
 
Combined with Vox's suggestion of moving mental combat initiative to be based 
on INT (which makes sense considering INT's description as a Characteristic), 
this has a lot of advantages. It increases the distinction of INT scores to a 
manageable degree. The skill scores don't really rocket out of reasonableness 
until you're in truly superhuman territory (at which point it makes sense 
anyhow), and it's similar to CV, which should make the change easier for 
people to adjust to than other possible fixes. 
  
 
H. G. 
 
He beats his fists against the posts 
and still insists he sees the ghosts 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:02:59 -0800 
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On Thursday, January 08, 1998 4:48 PM, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
>This *is* a tenuous parallel, because even Cap -- with his colossally 
>impressive and exaggerated musculature -- is explicitly a 20 STR (800 
lb. 
>maximum).  Created by a HERO player, he'd probably have a 30. :/ 
 
 
Actually, Cap's 800 lb maximum is how much he can _press_, while in 
Hero they go by how much you can deadlift. The press, which was 
removed from weightlifting, is described as a straight lift. I take 
this to mean that however you get it over your head is legal. 
 
A quick search of the web finds that the world record for the deadlift 
as 406.0 kg, or 893.2 lbs. However,  weightlifting over your head (C & 
J) gives a maximum weight of 260kg (572 lbs) over the head. 
 
Since the lift over the head is weightlifting and the other is 
powerlifting, it is true to say that the very best in one is probably 
not the very best in another. A typical human being can probably lift 
over his head no more than half what he can lift in a deadlift. (If 
you want better details than that, 
go to a gym.) 
 
If you assume that Hero's max lift for a given STR is a press, then 
you are working with a system where an average human can lift 100kg 
(220 lbs) over his head. Using this as a benchmark, the 400 kg (880 
lbs) given for a 20 STR is ludicrous, a figure that no human comes 
close to, while Joe Blow clearly works out a lot. 
 
If you assume that Hero's max lift for a given STR is a deadlift, then 
the world record of 893.2 lbs is about a 20 STR. 
 
If the max lift for a given STR in Hero is lifting over the head, then 
Cap's STR is a 20, and no real world human gets above a 17 or 18. If 
you assume that it is a deadlift, Cap makes a considerable leap to a 
23, assuming an increase from press to deadlift of x2. 
 
Additionally, I seem to recall that the Kingpin could lift even more, 
he just moves much more slowly and with far less agility because he is 
muscle-bound. IIRC, he could press about 1000 lbs., which puts him at 
about a 21 if you use 
press as the measure, and between 26 and 27 STR using deadlift as a 
measure. I could be wrong, of course, as I haven't seen the Marvel 
Universe comics in ages, and the 
books for the game don't separate normals by enough to show a 
difference, I suspect. 
 
>>In most cases I think that the higher than expected strength on a 
non 
>>brick character is just that; the player wanting his _super_ hero to 
be 
>>better than average. It's done out of character ego, and player 
desire 
>>for color; not just for 'point-crockiness'. (note earier in this 
>>paragraph I did say 'in most cases'). 
> 
>I have no objections to being higher than average.  I have an 
objection to 
>being higher than MAXIMUM, when we're still talking about ostensibly 
>"normal" humans. 
 
Agreed. I would like it if Hero defined maximum human a bit better, 
and preferably put it within spitting range of real world people. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: alternative to stun lotto 
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:07:59 -0800 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thursday, January 08, 1998 9:56 PM, HayVern wrote: 
 
 
>>Without the Hit Location chart, the Stun lotto 
>>can give you this effect, but it is impossible to get the effect, "I 
>>shot him in the head with a single round from a ..357 Magnum. He's 
>>dead." In fact, you _can't_ kill him with a single round from a 
.357, 
>>if he has 10 BODY. 
> 
>Actually a .357 does 1 1/2d6. Considering the most often rolled 
number is 7 on 
>2d6. We'll say that you rolled a 3 on the full die, and a 4 on the 
1/2 die. 
> 
>That would make a roll of five. Consulting the hit location chart we 
find that 
>BodyX for the head is X2. That would make 10 body to the target. 
Effectively 
>rendering him 0 body. That would be good enough for dead on any NPC 
that I may 
>have, and would require a paramedic to keep him alive otherwise. 
Don't forget 
>the impairment and disabling rules sections either. 
 
 
Reread my post. I stated "Without using the Hit Location chart...." 
The point was that if you use the Hit Location chart, you cannot knock 
someone out without doing a lot of Body, but if you don't, you can't 
kill them. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 20:06:21 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>Agreed. I would like it if Hero defined maximum human a bit better, 
>and preferably put it within spitting range of real world people. 
 
Indeed. As it stands, a 'normal' human can lift 100kg without pushing. I 
suppose they arrived at this number because: 
 
A.) They claim that a 'normal' human weighs 100kg, and 
B.) People generally don't need to 'push' their STR to climb stuff. 
 
Which is, of course, a crock. The average person does not weigh 100kg (try 
more like 60-70kg, and you shouldn't count your own body mass when lifting 
things. 
 
Oh, and people who have to climb stuff with just their arms generally do 
have to push their STR at least a little. 
 
I really think the whole scale should be 'cranked back' by a couple steps. 
Give the average joe the ability to lift 25kg without pushing. I'd reckon 
that most people could carry around 25kg for a good long period of time 
without exhausting themselves. 
 
Then a 20 STR person could lift 100kg without pushing (imagine carrying 
around another person plus for a while without too much difficulty), and 
could push up to 30 STR (400kg), or golly, darn near the established human 
maximums! 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 17:08:06 -0800 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Friday, January 09, 1998 12:17 AM, Tokyo Mark wrote: 
 
 
>> I'd rate the Kingpin at about a 23 STR and Wolverine a 20.  But 
aside from 
>> these rare examples of truly unusual persons, I think it's hard to 
justify 
>> phenomenally athletic normals who are not the huge fellows who 
compete in 
>> "World's Strongest Man" contests, athletes like Daredevil, the 
Punisher, or 
>> Batman, as having a STR above 18. 
>> 
>> For the sake of comparison, does anyone know what is the world 
record for the 
>> military press? 
> 
>Well, I know in Olympic weight lifting, where you are required to 
lift the 
>weight above your head, in the 1992 games Aleksandr Chemerkin managed 
to 
>lift 450 kgs, over 900 pounds.  And this was not a world record. 
> 
Actually, that figure is the total for both the snatch and the clean 
and jerk added together. The world record at this time is 205kg for 
the snatch, 260kg for the clean and jerk. The press as used in the 
Marvel Universe stats is a no longer used lift, for which I cannot 
find a clear definition. It is described as a straight lift. It is not 
the military press. 
 
I found the stats for the military press earlier today on the web, but 
now I can't find them. 
 
Here's a thought. The deadlift, squat, or clean and jerk may be 
interesting, but they aren't necessarily what is being used in the STR 
chart. A number of people have demonstrated the ability to lift 
weights much greater than the squat or deadlift. They place their 
shoulders under something and lift it by an inch or so, or use a 
harness for lifting a similar amount. I recall one man who, every 
birthday, would lift a weight considerably more than 1,000 lbs once 
for each year old he is. He was 72 last I checked. 
 
If we could find out the absolute maximum that any human has ever 
gotten off the ground, that may be what we want to use to bring the 
STR chart back in line. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 18:12:51 -0800 
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger) 
Subject: Re[2]: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
     John wrote: 
     <quote> 
     I really think the whole scale should be 'cranked back' by a couple  
     steps. Give the average joe the ability to lift 25kg without pushing.  
     I'd reckon that most people could carry around 25kg for a good long  
     period of time without exhausting themselves. 
      
     Then a 20 STR person could lift 100kg without pushing (imagine  
     carrying around another person plus for a while without too much  
     difficulty), and could push up to 30 STR (400kg), or golly, darn near  
     the established human maximums! 
     </quote> 
      
     But isn't that was casual strength is for? I thought that if I, at  
     STR 10, tried to pick something up that weighed 100kg, it took my  
     entire STR for that phase. In real life, I can fairly easily pick up  
     another person, but I won't be able to walk around carrying them for  
     long, because I'm burning END. 
      
     But I would be able to carry around a 25kg sack of flour for extended  
     periods of time, because my casual strength was higher than that.  
     Thus, casual STR shouldn't cost END. (Does it? I don't have my BBB  
     handy.) 
      
     If I had to, I probably could pick up two people. But I wouldn't be  
     able to do much with them. Maybe stagger a few steps ;) 
      
     Something that I have seen done (albeit only with body) is to have the  
     stats of the actual baseline normal NPC be a couple points below 10.  
     Thus, every Shmoe off the street is defined as having a 5 or an 8  
     BODY, rather than a 10. Maybe this should be expanded to cover all of  
     the characteristics. This might have two advantages: 
      
     1) With all stats bought back two points, the NPC will have more  
     points to buy all of those skills that they need. Thus, the average  
     Lawyer or Doctor won't have to be built on 150 points, like some  
     people feel they should. Note: This harkens back to the discussion of  
     how many points we on the list would be built on...I remember some  
     point totals nearing that of Dr. Destroyer's ;) 
      
     2) It would make the baseline PC just a little better than the average  
     person. Thus, without spending any points, my PC is stronger, smarter,  
     faster, harder to kill, etc., than most everyone else. This seems very  
     fitting for most genres...When was the last time you saw any superhero  
     outshone by a secretary, or a check-out boy? Action movies and fantasy  
     novels are full of this type of thing, too.  
      
     What does anyone think? 
      
     Richard 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 98 02:17:04  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Help : Marvel Conversions & stats for the ELEMENTALS 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sat, 10 Jan 1998 02:00:48 EST, KaosLlama wrote: 
 
>HELP!!!! 
> 
 
You've lost me here.  Are you looking for Marvel Super Heroes RPG stats for Bill  
WIllinghams Elementals (in which case you're probably asking the wrong group) or are  
you looking for Champions stats for a Marvel group I've never heard of called the  
Elementals? If the latter, who are they? 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Announcement: Hero S 
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:57:24 -0800 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thursday, January 08, 1998 8:20 AM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
<snip> 
>F> If I created a power whose primary purpose included abilities that 
>F> could be bought under the present system readily, but which cost 
only 
>F> half as much using the new power, you would scream bloody murder. 
>F> Primary vs Secondary has nothing to do with whether or not it has 
a 
>F> balanced cost. 
> 
>Okay... so lets just toss all the game mechanics out the window and 
play 
>Amber instead. :) 
 
 
Why? 
 
>That said, Characteristics are not Powers. 
 
 
True. 
 
If DEX had no figured characteristics, but cost only 1 pt per 1 pt, we 
would be arguing that it was too cheap. If CON did not resist STUN to 
calculate when you were Stunned, and cost 3 pts., it would be 
overpriced. 
 
Whether or not it is overpriced or underpriced has nothing to do with 
primary vs secondary effects of a characteristic. Secondary 
characteristics can leave a power overpriced or underpriced, primary 
characteristics can do the same. 
 
Additionally, I wasn't aware that there were such things in Champions 
as primary and secondary effects, by the book. If this isn't by the 
book, then the question becomes a) which are which (I could argue that 
all of those figured characteristics are part of the primary purpose, 
for example), and b) how do you compare the two to determine over or 
underpricedness. Is one point of overpricedness in a secondary purpose 
as bad as two in a primary purpose? 
 
Maybe we can compare the points saved in Primary and Secondary 
purposes (whatever those are), and thus come to a reliable measure of 
how much a characteristic is worth in each. Then we could determine 
what you think is reasonable in points saved by taking a Base 
Characteristic over Figured, skill levels, etc. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 98 04:08:40  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Help : Marvel Conversions & stats for the ELEMENTALS 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sat, 10 Jan 1998 02:32:44 EST, KaosLlama wrote: 
 
>In a message dated 98-01-10 02:30:58 EST, John.Desmarais@ibm.net writes: 
> 
><< On Sat, 10 Jan 1998 02:00:48 EST, KaosLlama wrote: 
>  
> >HELP!!!! 
> > 
>  
> You've lost me here.  Are you looking for Marvel Super Heroes RPG stats for 
>Bill  
> WIllinghams Elementals (in which case you're probably asking the wrong group) 
>or are  
> you looking for Champions stats for a Marvel group I've never heard of called 
>the  
> Elementals? If the latter, who are they? 
>  >> 
>I am looking to convert marvel to champions and the stats for willingham's 
>elementals for champions 
> 
 
Well, George MacDonald (one of the chaps that wrote Champions) wrote an article for  
issue 5 of the now defuct Adventurers Club Quarterly (Fall 1984) which detailed his  
suggestions for how do convert Marvel RPG stats to Champions.  If you can't find a  
copy of the magazine in your local game store (ad it is difficult to find) perhaps some  
kind soul on the list here has (if Mr. MacDonald permits) an electronic copy of the  
various charts that can be e-mailed to you (there wasn't just a straight multiply this stat  
by this much to convert, it was a series of charts, one for each stat). 
 
As for stats on the Elementals, can't help there - I don;t remember enough about the  
characters to convert them.  Try the Net Book of Real Heroes or The Champions  
Write-up Page (altough I don't remember seeing them there).  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 23:26:23 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Done to death dept. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
 
> At 02:34 PM 1/9/98 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
> >Okay... I know this has been done a lot before, but this time, I'm trying 
> >to design the character and I don't have all the previous power ideas 
> >handy.  So... 
> > 
> >The character is one of those 'can't die' types.  He cannot be killed by 
> >any means (short of serious magical power). 
>  
> You're right ... we've seen this thread before.  But that doesn't 
> mean we can't go through it again.  There's new people on the list 
> all the time. 
>  
> You will get lots of suggestions for this sort of character, ranging 
> from Life Support to everybody's favorite fall-back, Transform. 
>  
> IMHO, the easiest and cheapest way is to just agree between you and 
> your GM that this character WILL NOT DIE.  Just make it a special 
> effect.  Then buy enough body to cover you for normal damage  
> situations.   
 
Well,  
 
1) I am the GM. 
2) The write-up is for a worldbook on my web page.  I want to create a 
common set of powers for this type of person to buy that defines their 
immortality. 
3) I may make "does not die" a special effect.  But I still need to 
defeine some of the other powers. 
  
> This way, you can go into battle knowing that no matter how ridiculously 
> overmatched you are, tactics, strategy, teamwork, backup, etc. are not 
> necessary because you cannot be killed. 
 
Not die, yes... not mangled into a pulp?  No. 
  
> In fact, since you have the regen and can't-be-killed characteristics, 
> you may as well just go ahead and fix it so he can't be knocked out 
> either.  God himself could attack and he'll withstand it.  
 
Nope.  Don't work that way.  Get hit with a big enough attack and you will 
pass out from pain. 
  
> For the sake of the world, I hope this guy has heroic values! 
 
Some do and some don't.  Depends on the particualr version ofthe 
character. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 98 04:51:48  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: INT Benchmarks/Granularity 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 09 Jan 1998 15:55:20 -0600, Bryce Berggren wrote: 
 
>At 07:43 AM 1/9/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>At 09:27 AM 1/8/98 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>>>Well, yes, but inventing more uses for INT would be a good thing -- either 
>>>that, or find a way to increase the granularity of the system (I personally 
>>>like Erol K. Bayburt's "Percentile HERO" rules, but I wouldn't recommend it 
>>>for a 5th Edition revision). 
>> 
>>   One thing I do to increase the "granularity" of INT is to regard some 
>>things that are "one per 5 points of INT" as "one per 5 *full* points of 
>>INT."  For example, Powers that can be active at one time.  Granted, this 
>>particular one is a minor consideration (especially since it's an optional 
>>rule recommended only for heroic-level fantasy campaigns), but it's a start. 
> 
>I don't really see how this does anything to /increase/ granularity; instead 
>of 3, 18, 23, etc. being the only INT scores with a point, 10, 15, 20, etc. 
>become the only INT scores with a point. 
 
You didn't read Bob's post correctly.  He said [regard SOME things that are "one per 5  
points of INT" as "one per 5 *full* points of INT."]  The key word there is "some" as  
opposed to all.  The effect of this is that the key values for INT become 3, 5, 8, 13, 15,  
18, 23.  Although his method has no effect on the granularity of any particular skill,  
power, or whatnot; across the entire use of INT it does have some effect. 
 
 
>I already know the reaction to this will be loud shouts of how stupid this is, 
>but I'll throw it out there anyway: what about changing the skill base from 
>(CHAR/5)+9 to (CHAR/3)+8? 
 
It's not stupid, it's just out of whack with the standard Hero "5 points to the next level of  
effect" that is shared by almost everything in the Hero system. 
 
 
-=>John D. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 98 05:23:55  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Out of order messages 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 9 Jan 1998 22:07:34 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
 
>Is anyone else receiving messages that are replies to messages they 
>don't get until later? I have recently received a spate of messages 
>that are arriving out of order. 
> 
 
Frequently - I've just learned to ignore it. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear. 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 10 Jan 1998 00:44:23 -0500 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "KJM" == Kevin J McClain <KevLord@worldnet.att.net> writes: 
 
KJM> Many times it would be helpful to "pop" in behind someone, or in 
KJM> another room(all within line of sight). 
 
"Teleportation" is the power you are looking for. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 10 Jan 1998 00:51:05 -0500 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes: 
 
>> It does when you are wearing armor, because that PD will count against the 
>> Stun damage. 
 
q> Only an extra point or two. 
 
It still adds... and at 15-20 Strength it is more like three or four. 
 
>> The Strength also allows you to wear heavier armor, thus more 
>> protection against the Body damage. 
 
q> Not really - even a STR 5 weakling can wear DEF 8 plate. 
 
I would double-check that if I were you. 
 
[...] 
 
q> It's CON that's more important here, to prevent you being stunned as 
q> (opposed to being unconcious). The high Stun numbers which crop up mean 
q> thatif you're going to go under, then go under you will. 
 
Stunned means your CV is pathetic... but you still have one.  Unconscious 
means your CV is 0. 
 
[...] 
 
>> And it adds to your sword's damage. 
 
q> Again, minimally - 1 or 2 DC. 
 
And again, it still adds, and at 15-20 Strength it is more like 3-4DC.  The 
point is not the the ammount Strength adds; the point is that it *does* 
add, and that it adds much more than the character paid for. 
 
[...] 
 
>> Why is an FH mage throwing around 50 AP attacks (aside from the fact that 
>> the GM failed to keep control over his game)? 
 
q> Outside a framework, a 50 AP attack costs very little: 
 
The real cost is not in question; what is in question is the ammount of 
damage being done in an heroic-level campaign. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 10 Jan 1998 00:59:21 -0500 
Lines: 47 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "F" == Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> writes: 
 
F> Damage Class is determined by taking the Active Points and dividing by 
F> five...  HSR pg 158. 
 
Not quite; you did not read/cite far enough.  1 DC has a cost that is 
*usually* equal to 5 Active Points.  However, because there are modifiers 
that will affect a power's active cost without altering its ability to do 
damage, you only factor in those aspects of a power or modifer that affect 
its ability to do damage.  For instance, Armor Piercing increases the DCs 
of an Energy Blast; Zero Endurance does not, even if the active cost is the 
same. 
 
F> So no, it's not correct to say that no matter what a 60 Str cost, it 
F> would still be equal to a 12d6 EB. 
 
But the *damage* would be.  That is what Damage Classes are for.  They 
separate the ammount of damage a power can do from its active point cost. 
In the case of Strength, at 2/1 you effectively have half of that going 
into damage while the other half covers figured characteristics, lifting 
capacity, etc.  When figuring the DCs of Strength, you factor only that 
which actually does damage. 
 
F> If Str were to cost 2/1, then a 60 Str would be 24 Damage Classes, vs a 
F> 12d6 EB of 12 Damage Classes... not an allowable disparity in most 
F> games. 
 
In other words, no, it would not.  A 60 Strength is 12DCs -- and does 12D6 
damage -- regardless of its active point cost. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Out of order messages 
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 22:07:34 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Is anyone else receiving messages that are replies to messages they 
don't get until later? I have recently received a spate of messages 
that are arriving out of order. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 09 Jan 98 22:14:00 -0800 
Subject: Tying up the strength th 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 >  
 > Perhaps a fifth edition should include a section on standard abuses of  
 > the  
 > system??  
 >  
 > Anyone want to write that one??  :-)  
 >  
 >  
 > Stephen  
 > ---  
  
Maybe they should just reprint and update the  
Goodman School of Cost Effectiveness.  :)  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 09 Jan 98 22:19:02 -0800 
Subject: Re: STR: Underpriced? 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 j > But what reason could you have given for your thief to be one of the  
 j > strongest people on the planet? Adding STR just because "the point  
 j > buyback allows me to get it for free" is the excuse rules-rapists use  
 j > to justify getting away with this.  
 j >  
 j > IMO, all this argument about "STR is broken" is silly. Either your  
 j > character should have a 20 STR or not, or a 30 PD or not. If it does,  
 j > pay the points (one way or another). If not, then don't give him a  
 j > higher STR just because you can get away with it.  
 j >  
 j > John Lansford  
  
I agree... I think the characters that end up being able to get  
'free strength' when thier STR just shouldn't be that high, have  
probably taken thier figured stats up too high...  I mean, if your  
thief isn't meant to be all that strong, why can he jump of a  
castle wall without breaking something (high PD: ~5)?  
  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Reply-To: <> 
From: "Jim Dickinson" <champion@cyberhighway.net> 
Cc: <champ-l@omg.org> 
Subject: Re: Finding Other Gamers 
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 22:24:20 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Funny you should mention this (well, funny to me, at least) because I have 
recently been talking to Bruce H about this, and I offered to create a 
web-based database that basically did this.  Information I was planning to 
include was Name, email, city, state, country, and other optional contact 
methods (net identities), like UIN, IRC Nick, etc. 
 
I would welcome discussion about good fields to use in the database.  Would 
"Genre" and "GM/Player" fields be good too?  What else? 
 
Of course, this will be searchable, and so on.  I have a Cold Fusion server 
on my web server so I thought I would take advantage of it. 
 
---------- 
> From: Roger A. Wesson, Jr. <uraeus@bunt.com> 
> To: champ-l@omg.org 
> Subject: Finding Other Gamers 
> Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 10:15 PM 
>  
>   I was wondering if any one with a web site has put together a listing 
> of gamers, HERO or otherwise. 
>   It would be nice if you were looking for players, or a GM, to go to a 
list 
> and see if there is anyone in your area. 
>  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 09 Jan 98 22:26:04 -0800 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character ( 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 > Well, I'm not really bent out of shape.  I'm just expressing how I see  
 > numbers scale in champs.  If you look at the strength scale and see  
 > much weight a 23 strength character can lift (I don't have the BBB in  
  
I seem to remember from a much, much earlier post (ie years ago)  
that the typical Olympic wieght-lifters (in some sort of specific  
competition, don't remember the details), would need STR around  
25 - though I don't remember if that took heroic Ego-roll pushing  
into account.  
  
 > front of me) I suspect you will find a figure that the strongest man  
 > in the world could not lift.  Probably "only 5 people in history" was  
 > and overstatement, but to make that the average dex in a campaign  
 > seems a bit much.  Of course, as I said before, this has a lot to do  
 > with genre convention and personal taste.  
 >  
 > -Eric  
  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 09 Jan 98 22:40:06 -0800 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Wish: Be 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 >  
 > Yeah, I realized after everyone had a chance to quibble on my original  
 > list that I'd forgotten at least two significant wishes.  One was  
 > benchmarks; the other was to give INT a value and meaning more in  
 > with its description by using INT, not EGO, for determining mental  
 > initiative and changing the SPD formula to (DEX+INT)/10 instead of  
 > (DEX/10)+1.  
 >  
  
At which point, you'd have to increase the cost of INT, because anyone  
who bought up thier SPD would be getting INT for 'free.'  <sigh>  
  
 > >2) I'm with Vox, Phantom and Rat on the DEX/SPD debate. The ranges  
 > >are pushing for have worked beautifully in my running campaigns and I  
 > >think they are far more realistic as well as true to the genre.  
 >  
  
DEX/SPD inflation bothers me too.  The problem is that the only  
meaningful reference with DEX/SPD is to other characters in the  
game... with other stats you can have an outside reference:  
STR, how much you can lift, defenses, CON, BOD, STN: the amount  
of damage guns et al, do, etc...  So, keeping the sample characters  
in line is the only way to relieve the problem...  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 09 Jan 98 22:41:08 -0800 
Subject: Duplicates appear. 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
To: "Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net>  
 > I like the idea of a character that can summon temporal copies of  
 > themself from the future. Obviously Duplication is the method of  
 > choice.  
 > But I would like the "copies" to "pop" into  existence and not  
 > necessarily in the same hex as the prime character. Many times it  
 > would  
 > be helpful to "pop" in behind someone, or in another room(all within  
 > line of sight). Now Summon starts to look pretty good. Does anyone  
 > have  
 > a similar hero/villain and how do/would you represent this ability?  
 >  
 > Kev  
  
Yes, I put 'useable at range' on the Duplication.  
 
 
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 09 Jan 98 22:47:10 -0800 
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long) 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 F >  
 F > Damage Class is determined by taking the Active Points and dividing by  
 F > five...  
 F > HSR pg 158.  So no, it's not correct to say that no matter what a 60  
 F > Str cost,  
  
You realize that the very existance of Martial Arts DC for 4 points a  
pop throws a big wet blanket on this idea.  
  
 F > it would still be equal to a 12d6 EB.  If Str were to cost 2/1, then a  
 F > 60 Str  
 F > would be 24 Damage Classes, vs a 12d6 EB of 12 Damage Classes... not  
  
Though I *hate* the idea of increase STR costs, I can't agree.  12d  
of Normal damage is 12 DCs.  8d of AP normal damage is 12 DC... and  
if you ask me 8d of 0 END normal damge is 8DCs.. if it doesn't matter  
to they guy you're hitting, and advantage (or higher or lower cost)  
doesn't mean much in terms of DCs either... thus a 20d HA is darn-  
well 20 DCs!  
  
 F > I'm not trying to make a big fuss over this, I'm just trying to show  
 F > that by  
 F > raising the cost of Str, you're going to upset the way GM's use limits  
 F > to keep  
 F > balance in their campaigns.  I just can't buy the "well, Str is an  
 F > exception... Bricks get 120 Active Points (or 24 DC), everybody else  
 F > gets half  
 F > that."  
  
Some GMs do like to use Apt limits, rather than DCs so your argument's  
still valid, even if DCs aren't strictly determined by Apts...  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 01:55:02 EST 
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long) 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 98-01-10 01:12:56 EST, you write: 
 
<<  
 F> Damage Class is determined by taking the Active Points and dividing by 
 F> five...  HSR pg 158. 
  
 Not quite; you did not read/cite far enough.  1 DC has a cost that is 
 *usually* equal to 5 Active Points.  However, because there are modifiers 
 that will affect a power's active cost without altering its ability to do 
 damage, you only factor in those aspects of a power or modifer that affect 
 its ability to do damage.  For instance, Armor Piercing increases the DCs 
 of an Energy Blast; Zero Endurance does not, even if the active cost is the 
 same. 
 
Agreed. 
  
 F> So no, it's not correct to say that no matter what a 60 Str cost, it 
 F> would still be equal to a 12d6 EB. 
  
 But the *damage* would be.  That is what Damage Classes are for.  They 
 separate the ammount of damage a power can do from its active point cost. 
 In the case of Strength, at 2/1 you effectively have half of that going 
 into damage while the other half covers figured characteristics, lifting 
 capacity, etc.  When figuring the DCs of Strength, you factor only that 
 which actually does damage. 
 
Disagreed.   For one thing, the above exception to Damage Class math applies 
to *Advantages*, and Advantages only.  Strength is a Characteristic, not an 
Advantage.   
Second, if Str was 2/1, and you spent 5 points on Str, you'd get 1/2 die of 
Str, and one DC, not a whole die.  If you spent 10 points, you'd get a whole 
die, and two DCs.  There is nothing in the rules that says that half of the 
cost of Str goes towards damage and half goes towards figured characteristics 
or such.  If there was, and here's the kicker... 
 
Then right now, playing under the current rules, a Brick would be able to 
throw a 24d6 Punch in a 12 DC limit game.  Reason?  Well, you stated that 
effectively half of the cost of Str goes into damage.  So if I spent 110 
points on Str, getting a 120 total, then, using your logic, I've only spent 60 
points on the damage side!  Which fits snugly right at the 12 DC limit.  So, 
right now, I can build Bricks with 120 Str, throwing 24 dice of damage, and be 
completely legit!  (sounds of rushing out to destroy all my non Brick 
characters)  :)   
  
 F> If Str were to cost 2/1, then a 60 Str would be 24 Damage Classes, vs a 
 F> 12d6 EB of 12 Damage Classes... not an allowable disparity in most 
 F> games. 
  
 In other words, no, it would not.  A 60 Strength is 12DCs -- and does 12D6 
 damage -- regardless of its active point cost. >> 
 
Not by the above example.   A 60 Str (in a 2/1 world) would cost 10 pts per 
die, just like Drain.  6d6 Drain is 12 Damage Classes.  6d6 Strength would 
also be 12 DCs. 
 
Later, 
'Lynx 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: KaosLlama <KaosLlama@aol.com> 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 02:00:48 EST 
Subject: Help : Marvel Conversions & stats for the ELEMENTALS 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
HELP!!!! 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: KaosLlama <KaosLlama@aol.com> 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 02:32:44 EST 
Subject: Re: Help : Marvel Conversions & stats for the ELEMENTALS 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 98-01-10 02:30:58 EST, John.Desmarais@ibm.net writes: 
 
<< On Sat, 10 Jan 1998 02:00:48 EST, KaosLlama wrote: 
  
 >HELP!!!! 
 > 
  
 You've lost me here.  Are you looking for Marvel Super Heroes RPG stats for 
Bill  
 WIllinghams Elementals (in which case you're probably asking the wrong group) 
or are  
 you looking for Champions stats for a Marvel group I've never heard of called 
the  
 Elementals? If the latter, who are they? 
  >> 
I am looking to convert marvel to champions and the stats for willingham's 
elementals for champions 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 02:36:23 EST 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long) 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 98-01-10 01:43:42 EST, you write: 
 
<< F >  
  F > Damage Class is determined by taking the Active Points and dividing by  
  F > five...  
  F > HSR pg 158.  So no, it's not correct to say that no matter what a 60  
  F > Str cost,  
   
 You realize that the very existance of Martial Arts DC for 4 points a  
 pop throws a big wet blanket on this idea.  
 
Someone told me once that the Martial Arts DCs are different form the DCs 
under Determing Damage, but if not, I'm stumped. 
   
  F > it would still be equal to a 12d6 EB.  If Str were to cost 2/1, then a  
  F > 60 Str  
  F > would be 24 Damage Classes, vs a 12d6 EB of 12 Damage Classes... not  
   
 Though I *hate* the idea of increase STR costs, I can't agree.  12d  
 of Normal damage is 12 DCs.  8d of AP normal damage is 12 DC... and  
 if you ask me 8d of 0 END normal damge is 8DCs.. if it doesn't matter  
 to they guy you're hitting, and advantage (or higher or lower cost)  
 doesn't mean much in terms of DCs either... thus a 20d HA is darn-  
 well 20 DCs!  >> 
 
The point here is that if Str were to increase twofold, one die of Str damage 
would cost 10 points.   Str would now be on the same point cost level as 
Drain, 10/die.  And you certainly wouldn't allow 12d6 of Drain.  The fact that 
you count the damage the exact same way has no bearing on the level of DC it's 
worth.  You count the dice in the 'normal' way on an EB with Armor Piercing, 
Area Effect on it also.   
Yes, there are exceptions to how DC is calculated.  The exceptions like 0 End 
*are* listed as exceptions under Damage Class... but the  exceptions are for 
*Advantages* only.  Otherwise, DC is determined by AP/5.  So 20 HA does equal 
12DCs.  (another reason to do away with HA?)  I'm not saying this because I 
believe it's the way it should be done, it's the way the rules are written. 
Which is where house rules come in and do exactly what you're suggesting. 
(because it makes sense to me for the most part... but I still have a problem 
with allowing twice the AP and DC for Str and then turning around and strictly 
enforcing the 60/12 limit for everybody else. 
 
By the way, if you're still not convinced that DC is AP/5, ask yourself 
this... if the Active Points limit and Damage Class limit are yardsticks used 
to keep everybody at the same (or as close as you can get it) power level, 
wouldn't it make sense that if two powers were 'equal' when comparing them by 
Active Points, that they should also then be equal when comparing by DC level? 
 
  Ex:  60 AP of EB equals 12d6 damage equals 12 Damage Classes. 
         60 AP of Armor Piercing EB equals 8d6 damage equals 12 Damage 
Classes. 
         60 AP of No Normal Defense EB equals 6d6 damage equals 12 Damage 
Classes 
          
 So it can be shown that when you have powers of equal APs, their Damage 
Classes *also* will be equal. 
 
So, in a 2/1 Str world.... 
 
          60 AP of Str equals 6d6 damage equals 12 Damage Classes 
        120 AP of Str equals 12d6 damage equals 24 Damage Classes 
 
 
 
I'm sorry if I've caused grief over this thread.  The only reason I kept 
pointing out the limit breaking is to show that raising the cost of Str isn't 
the best way to fix this 'problem'.  If people absolutely believe that Str is 
underpriced, then the best way to fix it is by trimming what each point of Str 
gets you in figured characteristics.  If you raise the cost of Str, you create 
a bigger problem with Active Point/DC limits. 
And like another poster said, it's all moot, as Steve already said that 5th ed 
won't touch the costs of Characteristics. 
 
Later, 
'Lynx 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Character so far 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 00:16:14 -0800 (PST) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
> At 09:49 PM 1/7/98 -0800, Brian Wong wrote: 
> >Hello; 
> > 
> > Just want to let everyone know the speedster I've 
> >been getting advice for is now up on my webpage. 
> >At http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/cast.html 
> >Look for Tao Kuai, the first one listed. 
>  
>    Looks pretty good to these tired eyes.  Only a few quibbles: 
>    1) I think Disadvantages that are part of a package are supposed to be 
> in the Disdvantages column. 
 
	I've always played it as part of the package. Otherwise many 
packages are not worthwhile, such as non-humans. Heromaker seems to 
support this, and the rules have both views. 
 
>    2) Consider Personal Immunity for the Shockwave Vibrations Power. 
 
	That may be a good idea. 
 
>    3) The connection to the Speed Force might be better represented with 
> Dependence rather than Susceptibility. 
 
	The connection is normally always there. Much like the speedsters of 
the DC universe. Dependance seems to only work for something you have 
to go out and get. 
 
>    4) Does that Reputation really need to be that high?  I know I'd think 
> twice about allowing a beginning character with a Reputation Roll of 14-. 
 
	Beginning in a game is not nessessarily beginning in career. 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing 
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at 
some point. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions Survey 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 00:30:43 -0800 (PST) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
>    On page S22 of Champions Fourth Edition, the results of a survey of 
> Champions players and GMs are printed, giving the stats of the average 
> Champions character. 
>    As an experiment, with the Fifth Edition of the Hero System coming 
> around, I'd like to try a similar survey for the list. 
> 
	Despite the request, I'm going to do this to the list as I'm 
curious not just of averages but of particular's of people's games, so 
I'll start with my own style. 
  
>    Average Damage Class of a beginning character's main attack: 
	10 
>    Average Damage Class of "desperation" attacks (such as a Haymaker, or 
> any heavily-Limited Power): 
	12 
>    Average beginning total PD/ED: 
	10-20 depending on DCV 
>    Average beginning DEX: 
	20-24 
>    Average beginning SPD: 
	6 
>    Average beginning EGO: 
	10.5 
>    Average number of beginning Skills: 
	20+ points 
>    Starting base points: 
	No value specified, I set a power level limit, not a point limit. 
>    Average beginning Disadvantage total: 
	No value specified, I set a power level limit, not a point limit. 
>  
>    Average Damage Class of an NPC agent's main attack: 
>    Average NPC agent total PD/ED: 
>    Average NPC agent DEX: 
>    Average NPC agent SPD: 
>    Average NPC agent base points: 
>    Average NPC agent Disadvantage total: 
> 
	I've never used agents save for one game in 1985. In that 
game they where 50+50 pointers and had from 6 to 8 DC if I recall 
correctly. 
 
 	I generally don't like the marvel feel, so I avoid agents in a combat 
role. 
	My flavor is closer to that of DC with it's JLA. My ideal is Astro 
City, which has a JLA like org, but also a Shield like org. 
 
Rook 
 
Arcady on #HeroRPG, DALnet's democratic chat channel 
http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/HeroRPG.html 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 00:33:45 -0800 
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@sprynet.com> 
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com 
Organization: None 
Subject: Character Problems 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Not to interupt the really facinating 3 Spd brick lines... ;>) but, I 
was wondering if y'all could help me with this nagigng little problem of 
mine. I'm trying to make a hi-tech hero who has an AI in his battle suit 
(a la Booster Gold), would it be a follower? It is (at this time anyway) 
limited to his battle suit. It also can only control Life Support & 
Force Field. I don't want any  "Yeah I'm unconscious but the suit if 
fighting by it self...." hassles yet. 
 
Any Ideas.. 
 
Chad 
with Three p's and a silent Q.... 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa  
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 04:23:48 -0500 
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On January 9, I asked:  
 
>>> For the sake of comparison, does anyone know what is the world 
>>> record for the military press? 
 
 
And Tokyo Mark answered:  
 
>> Well, I know in Olympic weight lifting, where you are required to 
>> lift the weight above your head, in the 1992 games Aleksandr 
>> Chemerkin managed to lift 450 kgs, over 900 pounds.  And this was 
>> not a world record. 
 
 
To which Filksinger replied: 
 
> Actually, that figure is the total for both the snatch and the clean 
> and jerk added together. The world record at this time is 205kg for 
> the snatch, 260kg for the clean and jerk. The press as used in the 
> Marvel Universe stats is a no longer used lift, for which I cannot 
> find a clear definition. It is described as a straight lift. It is 
> not the military press. 
> 
>I found the stats for the military press earlier today on the web, but 
>now I can't find them. 
> 
>Here's a thought. The deadlift, squat, or clean and jerk may be 
>interesting, but they aren't necessarily what is being used in the STR 
>chart. A number of people have demonstrated the ability to lift 
>weights much greater than the squat or deadlift. They place their 
>shoulders under something and lift it by an inch or so, or use a 
>harness for lifting a similar amount. I recall one man who, every 
>birthday, would lift a weight considerably more than 1,000 lbs once 
>for each year old he is. He was 72 last I checked. 
> 
> If we could find out the absolute maximum that any human has ever 
> gotten off the ground, that may be what we want to use to bring the 
> STR chart back in line. 
> 
> Filksinger 
 
 
I don't think such absolute max figure would be very useful, considering the 
sometimes elaborate means used to achieve such lifts and the very limited 
usefulness of such lifting methods.  Leafing through my old 1985 edition of 
the Guinness Book of World Records, I see that Paul Anderson, in 1957, once 
raised 6,270 lbs. using a back lift (weight raised off trestles).  Going back 
to 1895, a Mrs. Josephine Blatt once raised 3,564 lbs. using a 
hip-and-harness lift (whatever that is.) 
 
My take on the game's lift figures is that they're a measure of useful work 
can be done with STR, such as picking up and carrying a person or object of 
up to the maximum mass--albeit carrying the person at far from top speed--or 
carrying that maximum mass in gear well-distributed over the body.  A 
character with a 10 STR could, with effort, pick up and carry a man weighing 
up to 220 lbs. from a burning building, carrying him the way firefighters are 
taught, using the strength of the entire body, not just the arms.  If the 
victim to be rescued weighs more than this, the rescuer would have to get 
another person's help, drag the heavy victim, or try Pushing his STR. 
 
As Filksinger mentioned in another post, the weight a character can press 
could be viewed as roughly half what he can lift.  That's a rule-of-thumb 
I've used every since I started converting Marvel characters into Champions 
stats several years ago.  Hence, a 23 STR hero could safely press 300 kg, a 
25 STR man 400 kg.       
 
Note the adverb "safely."  Since Tokyo Mark's response, I've been thinking a 
bit about the use of STR in athletic contests like weightlifting.  Let's say 
that the amount of mass a character can press above his head without worry of 
injuring himself is indeed half what he can normally lift.  A 20 STR 
character could press 400/2 = 200 kg without risk of injury. 
 
Now place him in a contest where the stakes are high, as in going for the 
gold, but it's not a life-or-death matter.  He tries to Push his STR.  An 
automatic STR boost of +5 with a successful EGO roll in such a contest isn't 
warranted, but perhaps a graduated STR boost is.  So for every two points by 
which he makes his EGO roll, he gains a +1 STR Push. 
 
This Push entails a risk of injury, though.  He now must make a CON roll at 
-1 per point of STR Pushed.  If he fails, he suffers, say, 1d6 or 2d6 of 
normal damage to an appropriate body location, with no subtraction from this 
damage for his PD.  If he fails the modified CON roll by 5 or more, he 
suffers 3d6 or 4d6 damage (again ignoring his PD) and an automatic impairing 
injury to the body location--he throws his back out, tears a bicep muscle, 
and so on. 
 
For example, an 18 CON weightlifter has Pushed his STR by +4, so his modified 
CON roll is 13-4=9 or less.  If he rolls a 14 or higher, he suffers the 
impairing injury. 
 
The body location injury should be reasonable, of course.  ("Let's see, you 
rolled a 3 for body location . . . okay, I rule your character strained 
himself so badly he accidentally bit the tip of his tongue off.") 
 
In fact, some form of self-injury rule could apply any time a character 
Pushes his STR or  another power, depending on the power's SFX.  Maybe there 
should be a small chance of burning out an EB that is Pushed, or some such 
restriction.  So in addition to expending END at a higher rate, the character 
who performs a Push under any circumstance risks his personal well-being. 
 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: Re: INT Benchmarks/Granularity 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 04:33:55 -0500 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> From: Bryce Berggren <ghost@softfarm.com> 
> Date: Friday, January 09, 1998 4:55 PM 
>  
> At 07:43 AM 1/9/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> >At 09:27 AM 1/8/98 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
> >>Well, yes, but inventing more uses for INT would be a good thing 
-- either 
> >>that, or find a way to increase the granularity of the system (I 
personally 
> >>like Erol K. Bayburt's "Percentile HERO" rules, but I wouldn't 
recommend it 
> >>for a 5th Edition revision). 
> > 
> >   One thing I do to increase the "granularity" of INT is to 
regard some 
> >things that are "one per 5 points of INT" as "one per 5 *full* 
points of 
> >INT."  For example, Powers that can be active at one time.  
Granted, this 
> >particular one is a minor consideration (especially since it's an 
optional 
> >rule recommended only for heroic-level fantasy campaigns), but 
it's a start. 
>  
> I don't really see how this does anything to /increase/ 
granularity; instead 
> of 3, 18, 23, etc. being the only INT scores with a point, 10, 15, 
20, etc. 
> become the only INT scores with a point. 
>  
> I already know the reaction to this will be loud shouts of how 
stupid this is, 
> but I'll throw it out there anyway: what about changing the skill 
base from 
> (CHAR/5)+9 to (CHAR/3)+8? 
 
(material snipped)  
 
This change in the skill base formula is one I like and have 
suggested a couple of times.  I recall seeing this house rule used in 
a PBEM campaign run by Mike Lehmann.     
 
 
> Combined with Vox's suggestion of moving mental combat initiative 
to be based 
> on INT (which makes sense considering INT's description as a 
Characteristic), 
> this has a lot of advantages. It increases the distinction of INT 
scores to a 
> manageable degree. The skill scores don't really rocket out of 
reasonableness 
> until you're in truly superhuman territory (at which point it makes 
sense 
> anyhow), and it's similar to CV, which should make the change 
easier for 
> people to adjust to than other possible fixes. 
   
 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 04:39:49 -0500 
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>In fact, some form of self-injury rule could apply any time a character 
>Pushes his STR or  another power, depending on the power's SFX.  Maybe there 
>should be a small chance of burning out an EB that is Pushed, or some such 
>restriction.  So in addition to expending END at a higher rate, the character 
>who performs a Push under any circumstance risks his personal well-being. 
> 
 
I'm not sure I'd use this as a rule, but it's not unrealistic.  A number of 
people have been injured in weight lifting.  Sometimes sickeningly.  I'll 
never forget watching one of those 'World's Strongest Man' shows on ESPN 
(It was an old one with Ken Patera).  In the last event (The refrigerator 
carry) one of the lifters very obviously blew out his knee. 
 
TokyoMark 
 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"aregalad@miami.edu\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 98 11:56:13  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Wish: Benchmarks (was: A Sample Character) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 09 Jan 1998 14:32:20 -0500 (EST), aregalad@miami.edu wrote: 
 
>> >Now lets take INT. The only in-play significance of INT is INT and PER 
>> >rolls. If you use the same breakdown that you do with DEX, you will have 
>> >ranges that don't do anything. Not good, IMO. SO...to make INT benchmarks 
>> >work, they would have to look something like this. 
>>  
>> What about all those INT based skill rolls? This completely invalidates 
>> what follows. 
> 
> 
>Actually, you have just proved my point and validated my observations 
>about INT. You are right about ONE thing. When I said INT is only good for 
>Perception and INT rolls I neglected to mention skill rolls (I kind of 
>lumped them with INT rolls - my bad). The thing is that skills based on 
>INT and INT rolls have the same breakdown - hence they have the same 
>problem. Nothing about my argument is invalidated.  
 
Actually it was, but if you add in INT based skills, then yes, it makes 
a VAST difference, and as far as you go, I agree with you, but there 
are alternatives. 
 
>Allow me to illustrate: 
> 
>First benchmarks that work (IMO). 
> 
>Proposed DEX Benchmarks: 
> 
>DEX	Label		CV	ROLL 
>9-11	Everyman	3-4	 11< 
>12-14	Competent	4-5	 11< - 12< 
>15-17	Heroic		5-6	 12< 
>18-20	Incredible	6-7	 13< 
>21-23	Legendary	7-8	 13< - 14< 
> 
>You will note that every level of DEX means gives an increase in CV (at 
>the high end). Furthermore, every point of DEX counts for initiative. The 
>DEX roll (and the Roll for all DEX skills) does NOT change every level, 
>but thats okay because you get plenty more for the points you spend on 
>DEX. 
> 
>Now lets assume that HERO uses these benchmarks and apply's the same 
>breakdown for INT. 
> 
>INT		LABEL		ROLL 
>9-11		Everyman	11< 
>12-14		Competent	11< - 12< 
>14-17		Heroic		12< 
>18-20		Incredible	13< 
>21-23		Legendary	13< - 14< 
> 
>Unfortunately INT does nothing more than provide Rolls of some sort 
>whether they be INT rolls, PER rolls and yes SKILL rolls as well. Right 
>off the bat you have the problem that there are "useless" points of INT in 
>terms of game-play. Why have a 10 if you can have a 9 and have the same 
>effect? You will also note that there is absolutely NO difference between 
>having a HEROIC INT and having a COMPETENT INT (at the upper ranges). This 
>makes for ineffective benchmarks since (IMO) every benchmark level should 
>make a quantifiable difference in game play. The only way to achieve this 
>(without adding new uses for INT - something I am NOT opposed to) is to 
>make the breakoff points for the INT benchmarks be the important numbers - 
>the ones that make a difference in INT, PER, and SKILL Rolls. The table 
>would HAVE to look something like this. 
> 
>INT	LABEL			ROLL 
>8-12	Everyman		11< 
>13-17	Competent		12< 
>18-22	Heroic			13< 
>23-27	Incredible		14< 
>28-32	Legendary		15< 
 
Alternatively, as in the example of the Repartee rules, you can have an 
INT CV, which would be appropriate for many mental powers, and, in a FH 
game, you can allow wizards to have INT/3 spells active instead of the 
INT/5 that is more appropriate for the modern era. 
 
Anyway, as I stated earlier, INT is very cheap for its utility. 
 
 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 08:43:13 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 7 Jan 1998, Opal wrote: 
 
> Well, it depends on how attacks work, if you can stack them, sure,  
> otherwise, what's the downside to a Multipower full of attacks -  
> you can only use them what at a time anyway.  
 
Well, yes. If you don't allow an attack to consist of multiple Powers by 
default, then of course putting attack-oriented Powers into a Multipower 
is a point crock which completely beggars anything else discussed in this 
thread. 
 
> And then VPPs can be compared to a Multipower with an unlimited  
> number of slots.... since they don't cost infinite points....  
 
The idea, presumably, is that a cosmic VPP should cost the same as a 
Multipower with so many slots that it may as well be infinite. The costs 
currently in use are arguably off, but the concept is sound. 
 
> It's pretty easy to put a large portion of your powers under a +1/4  
> or +1/2 limitation without being horribly inconvenienced (OIHID, for  
> instance). 
 
If you're getting significant point breaks without corresponding 
drawbacks, your GM simply isn't following the fundamental rule of 
Limitations. I _certainly_ don't agree that somebody who buys all of their 
powers OIHID isn't horribly inconvenienced. 
 
> For instance a 250pt character with an 'overall' +1/4 lim (which is  
> extreme, I need a simple example) saves around the same 60 points  
> as a STR or EC based character.... So, a simple, no-limitations  
> brick is competative in a game that includes powered armor characters  
> and the like.  After you fix STR, that's less likely to be the  
> case.  It's not an insurmountable problem, but something that should  
> be considered.  
 
A character who takes a lot of Limitations _should_ be more powerful than 
a non-limited character, when their Limitation isn't screwing them up. 
That's sort of the point. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"Michael Surbrook\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 98 12:59:00  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Done to death dept. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:34:36 -0500 (EST), Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
>Okay... I know this has been done a lot before, but this time, I'm trying 
>to design the character and I don't have all the previous power ideas 
>handy.  So... 
> 
>The character is one of those 'can't die' types.  He cannot be killed by 
>any means (short of serious magical power). 
 
<snip> 
 
This is very like the Troll example given in the Spirit rules, with 
Regeneration. 
 
If you want to do it more normally, any of the ro 
 
Regeneration normally allows regrowing of limbs. 
 
Severed limbs at range is Ranged, Indirect. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:05:40 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, Firelynx16 wrote: 
 
> << In other words, virtually every character in existence (bearing in mind 
>  that you actually only need to buy up all of those stats except one). Look 
>  at the "Characters" section of the BBB - ignoring the 2 who bought their 
>  STR "Doesn't affect Figured", 12 out of the remaining 14 characters would 
>  have a lower point cost if they took a higher STR while keeping the rest 
>  of their stats the same. Characters who have to pay extra points for the 
>  priviledge of a low STR are the rule, not the exception. 
>   >> 
>  
> This isn't true, because you can only buy down one figured characteristic. 
 
I was fairly obviously taking this into account, 'Lynx. Otherwise, _every_ 
character in existence could reduce their total with higher STR. (An 
infinite STR would cause -infinity points.) 
 
> So if they spend more points on Str, they'd end up with higher stats, and  
> less points to spend elsewhere. 
 
Yes, there a couple of characters in the Champions who bought their STR to 
the point of maximum efficiency with regard to their chosen figured stats. 
But these are the exception, not the rule; well over 90% of the sample 
characters could take a higher STR either for no cost or would get points 
back for it. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 98 13:07:15  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: INT Benchmarks/Granularity 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 09 Jan 1998 15:55:20 -0600, Bryce Berggren wrote: 
 
>At 07:43 AM 1/9/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>At 09:27 AM 1/8/98 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>>>Well, yes, but inventing more uses for INT would be a good thing -- either 
>>>that, or find a way to increase the granularity of the system (I personally 
>>>like Erol K. Bayburt's "Percentile HERO" rules, but I wouldn't recommend it 
>>>for a 5th Edition revision). 
>> 
>>   One thing I do to increase the "granularity" of INT is to regard some 
>>things that are "one per 5 points of INT" as "one per 5 *full* points of 
>>INT."  For example, Powers that can be active at one time.  Granted, this 
>>particular one is a minor consideration (especially since it's an optional 
>>rule recommended only for heroic-level fantasy campaigns), but it's a start. 
> 
>I don't really see how this does anything to /increase/ granularity; instead 
>of 3, 18, 23, etc. being the only INT scores with a point, 10, 15, 20, etc. 
>become the only INT scores with a point. 
> 
>I already know the reaction to this will be loud shouts of how stupid this is, 
>but I'll throw it out there anyway: what about changing the skill base from 
>(CHAR/5)+9 to (CHAR/3)+8? 
> 
>INT/DEX         Old Base        New Base 
>  3                      9       9 
 
This should be           10       9 as you round up. 
 
>  5                     10      10 
>  8                     11      11 
> 10                     11      11 
> 13                     12      12 
> 15                     12      13 
> 18                     13      14 
> 20                     13      15 
> 23                     14      16 
> 25                     14      16 
> 28                     15      17 
> 30                     15      18 
 
 
>Combined with Vox's suggestion of moving mental combat initiative to be based 
>on INT (which makes sense considering INT's description as a Characteristic), 
>this has a lot of advantages. It increases the distinction of INT scores to a 
>manageable degree. The skill scores don't really rocket out of reasonableness 
>until you're in truly superhuman territory (at which point it makes sense 
>anyhow), and it's similar to CV, which should make the change easier for 
>people to adjust to than other possible fixes. 
 
This would tone down the power wars quite a bit if generally applied, 
and would be very useful for FH. It also makes Normals much nastier as 
they can buy their prime stats down to 8 without affecting stat rolls, 
and thus permit extra skills or BODY or Stun. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"John Desmarais\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 98 13:15:50  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: INT Benchmarks/Granularity 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sat, 10 Jan 98 04:51:48, John Desmarais wrote: 
 
>>I already know the reaction to this will be loud shouts of how stupid this is, 
>>but I'll throw it out there anyway: what about changing the skill base from 
>>(CHAR/5)+9 to (CHAR/3)+8? 
> 
>It's not stupid, it's just out of whack with the standard Hero "5 points to the  >next level of effect" that is shared by almost everything in the Hero system. 
 
Actually, it isn't. Most skills are 3 pts, 2 pts for +1, HA is 1d6 for 
3pts. Figured stat divisors vary from /2 to /10. Dispel, to cite one 
power, is 3 pts/1d6. And don't forget that Limitations get applied to 
powers. 
 
This is a very interesting idea, but I'd like to hear more and do a bit 
of number-crunching. 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"Richard G Schwerdtfeger\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 98 13:19:39  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 9 Jan 1998 18:12:51 -0800, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote: 
 
>     But I would be able to carry around a 25kg sack of flour for extended  
>     periods of time, because my casual strength was higher than that.  
>     Thus, casual STR shouldn't cost END. (Does it? I don't have my BBB  
>     handy.) 
 
But you'd be sore pressed to carry that sack all day, wouldn't you? So 
it does cost END, but as long as the END cost is less than your REC, 
then you're only worried about the LTE cost, which is as it should be. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:32:50 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Tying up the strength threads.....  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, Stephen McGinness wrote: 
 
> I think the points saved by martial artists having STR 20 instead of a more  
> realistic 14 or 15 are not an issue, 
 
I can't imagine how it could fail to be an issue. 
 
> >Because skill levels are effectively just characteristics with a 
> >limitation "only for certain skills". A bonus to DEX-based skills, for 
> >example, isn't something you get _along with_ DEX; it _is_ DEX. 
>  
> But it is also a bonus that comes along naturally because you are dextrous.  
 
No, it isn't. It's the game mechanical representation of being dextrous. 
If being better at skills requiring co-ordination (including combat) is 
a bonus you get along with becoming more dextrous, then what does being 
dextrous in and of itself mean? 
 
> An increased endurance recovery and durability are usually gained with an  
> increase in strength. 
 
Yes, high PD and REC have a certain correlation with high STR. So do high 
CON and BODY, but I don't hear anybody saying you should get those for 
free when you buy STR. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:52:14 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, Filksinger wrote: 
 
> >More than one out of every few hundred Telepathy users finds 
> >themselves in a position where taking more dice of Telepathy costs 
> >them fewer points? I don't see how that could happen. (Unless it's 
> >bought in an Elemental Control - EC's share this problem with STR.) 
>  
> Ah. Well, if that type of trouble is the only one that causes you 
> problems, then I would have to cut it down to all Frameworks and CON. 
 
It's hardly the only thing which gives me trouble, but it's several orders 
of magnitude worse than a simple case of a cost being "off". One can 
accept that no point system is going to be perfect. However, it's far from 
unreasonable to expect as a bare minimum that the system be able to 
distinguish between a useful ability and a drawback. 
 
(And this is something like the 20th or 30th time somebody in this thread 
has said "Frameworks" when they mean "Elemetal Control", and it's getting 
bloody annoying.) 
 
> >> So with the ridiculous Limitation value of -1 for not being able to 
> >> fire non-linked attacks together, you still don't come close to the 
> >> cost savings of Multipower. 
> > 
> >You know, if you call your _own_ assumptions ridiculous, you're not 
> >going to convince anybody.:) You're right; a -1 for "cannot be used with 
> >certain other powers" is ridiculous; according to my BBB (pp 114-115), 
> >it's a -9 Limitation, except you need to pay full price for one of 
> >those powers. 
> > 
> >(Which isn't exactly right, but you get my point). 
>  
> If your point is that you agree with me that Multipower is also a 
> "point crock", and is not significantly better than EC in this 
> respect, then yes, I do.:) 
 
How on earth could that possibly have been my point, when it's the exact 
opposite of what I said? 
 
My point was that Champions specifies a certain amount of point break for 
the drawback of not being able to use Powers simultaneously. Inventing 
your own mechanic to do this, assigning a cost to it which is sometimes 
higher than the cost of Multipower, and using this to attempt to show that 
Multipower is underpriced is a pretty feeble argument IMO. 
 
> A character who increases their Figured Characteristics via STR is 
> taking advantage of how STR works, both in the game and real life. If 
> I decided to get harder to knock out, more resistant to blunt impacts, 
> and increase my ability to recover from fatigue, strength building 
> exercises would be a major part of it. In fact, I'm not certain how I 
> would go about building up those three in the real world without it. 
 
I don't see the relevance here at all. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 10:06:36 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, Filksinger wrote: 
 
> If 1 DEX cost 10 pts, people would scream about how overpriced it is. 
 
Probably. 
 
> How would they be able to prove this? By comparing it to other ways to 
> buy all of its abilities, and show how many points buying them saves. 
 
Yes. Similarly, if buying an Energy Blast not usable at night and an 
Energy Blast only usable at night cost a total amount less than just 
buying a straight Energy Blast, there would be a problem. 
 
> If DEX cost only 2 points for each point of DEX, this is how you would 
> determine that it was underpriced. 
 
It does, actually. And yeah, I think it is underpriced at that cost. 
 
> >STR is different; with STR, you get things which aren't directly a 
> >part of STR's definition (the amount of HTH damage you can do and the 
> >amount you can lift, carry or throw), and the value of those things is 
> >more than the cost of the STR itself. In effect, the actual physical 
> >strength costs nothing. 
>  
> STR is a characteristic, not a power. 
 
Yes, what of it? 
 
> It _is_ an inherent property of STR, when not a super power, that it 
> makes you more resistant to injury and generally fitter, and this 
> quality would tend to be reflected in superstrength as well. 
 
These things most certainly are not an inherent property of the ability to 
exert more physical force. They may correlate strongly with it, but this 
is immaterial. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 10:12:30 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, Filksinger wrote: 
 
> >This *is* a tenuous parallel, because even Cap -- with his colossally 
> >impressive and exaggerated musculature -- is explicitly a 20 STR (800 
> >lb. maximum).  Created by a HERO player, he'd probably have a 30. :/ 
>  
> Actually, Cap's 800 lb maximum is how much he can _press_, while in 
> Hero they go by how much you can deadlift. 
 
Where is this spelled out? I've combed the rules before trying to find 
where it says what type of lift the STR charts represent, and I haven't 
been able to.  
 
> If you assume that Hero's max lift for a given STR is a deadlift, then 
> the world record of 893.2 lbs is about a 20 STR. 
 
OTOH, somebody going for a world record is likely to be pushing his or her 
STR, which would mean that the record setter had noticeably below 20 STR. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 10:17:53 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> >KJM> Many times it would be helpful to "pop" in behind someone, or in 
> >KJM> another room(all within line of sight). 
> > 
> >"Teleportation" is the power you are looking for. 
>  
>    Teleportation, Usable Against Others, Indirect, Transdimensional, Self 
> Only? 
 
As soon as you put "Usable Against Others" and "Self Only" on the same 
Power, it's a good sign that you're talking nonsense.:) Teleport, only 
usable as soon as generated is the ability you want (for the Duplicates); 
no other modifiers are required. 
 
>    No thank you.  Duplication at Range is much simpler and more direct. 
 
Does it make more sense for the cost of this ability to be related to the 
point cost of the duplicate, or the distance at which the character can do 
it? IMO it's definitely the latter. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 07:22:46 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
"Kevin J. McClain" <KevLord@worldnet.att.net> sed; 
 
> I like the idea of a character that can summon temporal copies of 
> themself from the future. Obviously Duplication is the method of 
> choice. 
> But I would like the "copies" to "pop" into  existence and not 
> necessarily in the same hex as the prime character. Many times it 
> would 
> be helpful to "pop" in behind someone, or in another room(all within 
> line of sight). Now Summon starts to look pretty good. Does anyone 
> have 
> a similar hero/villain and how do/would you represent this ability? 
> 
> Kev 
 
   I had a character once with a vaguely similar ability; He could 
duplicate into two half-size versions of himself at range.  I basically 
bought the Duplication linked together with teleportation.  Thus the 
only application of his T-port was for the purpose of duplicating - of 
course in my case every T-port would either duplicate or combine him, 
depending on his current state. 
 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
 
   "The amazing Shrinking, Duplicating, Teleporting Brick" 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: aregalad@miami.edu 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 10:41:44 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Wish: Benchmarks (was: A Sample Character) 
Cc: Hero System Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Howdy, 
 
> >Actually, you have just proved my point and validated my observations 
> >about INT. You are right about ONE thing. When I said INT is only good for 
> >Perception and INT rolls I neglected to mention skill rolls (I kind of 
> >lumped them with INT rolls - my bad). The thing is that skills based on 
> >INT and INT rolls have the same breakdown - hence they have the same 
> >problem. Nothing about my argument is invalidated.  
>  
> Actually it was, but if you add in INT based skills, then yes, it makes 
> a VAST difference, and as far as you go, I agree with you, but there 
> are alternatives. 
 
I'm sorry - when you say "Actually it was," what do you mean? Did you mean 
that something was invalidated about my argument, and if so - what? I 
honestly don't see it. As far as INT based skills making a huge difference 
- not really, at least not relative to other characteristic rolls and the 
skills they modify. 
 
As far as other alternatives - I'm dealing with INT as it is now and 
assuming that HERO is not going to add uses for INT (even though I think 
it would be a good thing). I've already said that I would modify my 
benchmarks if HERO officially modify's the effectiveness of INT. 
 
> Alternatively, as in the example of the Repartee rules, you can have an 
> INT CV, which would be appropriate for many mental powers, and, in a FH 
> game, you can allow wizards to have INT/3 spells active instead of the 
> INT/5 that is more appropriate for the modern era. 
 
We could, but we don't. :] I want benchmarks (they don't have to be mine - 
of course - but benchmarks of some sort) to be an official part of 5th Ed. 
HERO. For this to be the case they have to be based on official rules - 
not house rules or genre specific rules (as good as they may be). 
 
> Anyway, as I stated earlier, INT is very cheap for its utility. 
 
I'm not at all concerned with cost. 
 
Take care, 
 
Dragonfly 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 08:11:17 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Character Problems 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:33 AM 1/10/98 -0800, Chad Riley wrote: 
>Not to interupt the really facinating 3 Spd brick lines... ;>) but, I 
>was wondering if y'all could help me with this nagigng little problem of 
>mine. I'm trying to make a hi-tech hero who has an AI in his battle suit 
>(a la Booster Gold), would it be a follower? It is (at this time anyway) 
>limited to his battle suit. It also can only control Life Support & 
>Force Field. I don't want any  "Yeah I'm unconscious but the suit if 
>fighting by it self...." hassles yet. 
> 
>Any Ideas.. 
 
   If the computer is really this limited, then I'd just put a Trigger on 
the Force Field (and the Life Support if it Costs END or something) and 
call the AI a Special Effect.  If the computer has knowledge databases, 
control of multiple Powers, and stuff of that order, then buy it as a 
Follower. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 08:15:58 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:44 AM 1/10/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "KJM" == Kevin J McClain <KevLord@worldnet.att.net> writes: 
> 
>KJM> Many times it would be helpful to "pop" in behind someone, or in 
>KJM> another room(all within line of sight). 
> 
>"Teleportation" is the power you are looking for. 
 
   Teleportation, Usable Against Others, Indirect, Transdimensional, Self 
Only? 
   No thank you.  Duplication at Range is much simpler and more direct. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"Stainless Steel Rat\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 98 16:19:40  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 10 Jan 1998 00:51:05 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes: 
> 
>>> It does when you are wearing armor, because that PD will count against the 
>>> Stun damage. 
> 
>q> Only an extra point or two. 
> 
>It still adds... and at 15-20 Strength it is more like three or four. 
 
Not so: PD has a base of STR/5, so 10 Str gives a PD of 2 and 20 Str 
gives a PD of 4, a difference of *2* points. 
 
 
>>> The Strength also allows you to wear heavier armor, thus more 
>>> protection against the Body damage. 
> 
>q> Not really - even a STR 5 weakling can wear DEF 8 plate. 
> 
>I would double-check that if I were you. 
 
Page 150 of the HSR. Apart from the encumbrance END cost table, Str 0-4 
requires x2 End, Str 5-9 requires x1.5. No weight restrictions are 
listed. 
 
>[...] 
> 
>q> It's CON that's more important here, to prevent you being stunned as 
>q> (opposed to being unconcious). The high Stun numbers which crop up mean 
>q> thatif you're going to go under, then go under you will. 
> 
>Stunned means your CV is pathetic... but you still have one.  Unconscious 
>means your CV is 0. 
 
Not much difference in FH games. 
 
>[...] 
> 
>>> And it adds to your sword's damage. 
> 
>q> Again, minimally - 1 or 2 DC. 
> 
>And again, it still adds, and at 15-20 Strength it is more like 3-4DC.  
 
We're clearly reading from different rulebooks. Added Str gives 1d6 per 
5 pts, so a Str 20 person does 4d6 and a Str 10 person 2d6, a 
difference of *2*d6. A Str 10 person can wield a Shortsword doing 1d6k, 
a Str 20 person a Greatsword doing 2d6k, but that Str 20 person will 
only do 1 1/2 d6K with the shortsword. 
 
>The 
>point is not the the amount Strength adds; the point is that it *does* 
>add, 
 
That's not in question. 
 
> and that it adds much more than the character paid for. 
 
Not so, IME. As I've said before, Str tends to be the characteristic 
that is not increased. 
 
>[...] 
> 
>>> Why is an FH mage throwing around 50 AP attacks (aside from the fact that 
>>> the GM failed to keep control over his game)? 
> 
>q> Outside a framework, a 50 AP attack costs very little: 
> 
>The real cost is not in question; what is in question is the amount of 
>damage being done in an heroic-level campaign. 
 
It was my campaign and it worked fine: it put the fear of god into my 
players. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 08:21:57 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: INT Benchmarks/Granularity 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:55 PM 1/9/98 -0600, Bryce Berggren wrote: 
>At 07:43 AM 1/9/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>At 09:27 AM 1/8/98 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>>>Well, yes, but inventing more uses for INT would be a good thing -- either 
>>>that, or find a way to increase the granularity of the system (I personally 
>>>like Erol K. Bayburt's "Percentile HERO" rules, but I wouldn't recommend it 
>>>for a 5th Edition revision). 
>> 
>>   One thing I do to increase the "granularity" of INT is to regard some 
>>things that are "one per 5 points of INT" as "one per 5 *full* points of 
>>INT."  For example, Powers that can be active at one time.  Granted, this 
>>particular one is a minor consideration (especially since it's an optional 
>>rule recommended only for heroic-level fantasy campaigns), but it's a start. 
> 
>I don't really see how this does anything to /increase/ granularity; instead 
>of 3, 18, 23, etc. being the only INT scores with a point, 10, 15, 20, etc. 
>become the only INT scores with a point. 
 
   3, 8, 13, 18, 23, etc., are still the breakpoints for INT Rolls, Skill, 
and PER Rolls.  The breakpoints of 5, 10, 15, 20, etc., are used only for 
quantifications of "one per five points of INT." 
   In some games, there may also be a use for Intelligence Combat Value 
(ICV) -- again, an obscure use, but it exists. 
 
>I already know the reaction to this will be loud shouts of how stupid this 
is, 
>but I'll throw it out there anyway: what about changing the skill base from 
>(CHAR/5)+9 to (CHAR/3)+8? 
 
   Indeed, this has been discussed before.  I rather like it, and so do 
several others, though I think it's too profound of a change for 5th 
Edition. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"Vox Ludator!\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 98 16:22:12  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 09 Jan 1998 14:58:09 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
 
>At 05:59 PM 1/9/98, qts wrote: 
>>It only has no mechanical effect if you as the GM say so. I seldom use 
>>ECs, and don't play with large ones a la Champions, but it has 
>>previously been suggested that once a power within the EC has been 
>>Drained to the point where the EC bonus is counted (usually half) then 
>>the other EC powers should suffer equally sounds fine to me. 
> 
>Incorrect.  The proper way to say this is "it only HAS a mechanical effect 
>if you as the GM say so" (emphasis mine) -- no mechanical effect is the 
>by-the-book interpretation, whereas the Adjustment Power effects are a house 
>ruling. 
 
I'll grant you that. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 08:25:15 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Out of order messages 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:07 PM 1/9/98 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>Is anyone else receiving messages that are replies to messages they 
>don't get until later? I have recently received a spate of messages 
>that are arriving out of order. 
 
   It happens to me occasionally, and has since I first joined the list 
years ago (right after Bruce made mention of it in Adventurer's Club).  I 
think it's just one of the oddities one encounters in this kind of thing. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: aregalad@miami.edu 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:54:30 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re: INT Benchmarks/Granularity 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Howdy! 
 
> I already know the reaction to this will be loud shouts of how stupid this is, 
> but I'll throw it out there anyway: what about changing the skill base from 
> (CHAR/5)+9 to (CHAR/3)+8? 
 
I'm assuming you mean for ALL skill bases - not just INT. Personally - 
AAHAHAHAHIIII LIKE IT!  :] 
 
I also don't think it wold be too drastic a change for a 5th Edition. 
 
 
Is that the reaction you expected? :] 
 
Take care, 
 
Dragonfly 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:12:47 EST 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 98-01-10 12:26:51 EST, you write: 
 
<< > << In other words, virtually every character in existence (bearing in 
mind 
 >  that you actually only need to buy up all of those stats except one). Look 
 >  at the "Characters" section of the BBB - ignoring the 2 who bought their 
 >  STR "Doesn't affect Figured", 12 out of the remaining 14 characters would 
 >  have a lower point cost if they took a higher STR while keeping the rest 
 >  of their stats the same. Characters who have to pay extra points for the 
 >  priviledge of a low STR are the rule, not the exception. 
 >   >> 
 >  
 > This isn't true, because you can only buy down one figured characteristic. 
  
 I was fairly obviously taking this into account, 'Lynx. Otherwise, _every_ 
 character in existence could reduce their total with higher STR. (An 
 infinite STR would cause -infinity points.) 
  
 > So if they spend more points on Str, they'd end up with higher stats, and  
 > less points to spend elsewhere. 
  
 Yes, there a couple of characters in the Champions who bought their STR to 
 the point of maximum efficiency with regard to their chosen figured stats. 
 But these are the exception, not the rule; well over 90% of the sample 
 characters could take a higher STR either for no cost or would get points 
 back for it. 
  
  
  >> 
 
Yeah, I misunderstood your post and realized it just about 3/10 of a second 
after I hit that darned 'Send' button.   
 
I agree with you that Str can be misused to get points for free, but almost 
anything in the game can be misused.  It's up to the GM to keep players in 
line on all points, not just whether someone bought up Str when their concept 
doesn't call for it, just to get less expensive Figured Characteristics.  Just 
as the GM keeps the players from abusing Power Frameworks, he/she has the same 
responsibility when dealing with Str. 
 
That said, then if the GM *is* doing his/her job and keeps Str from being 
abused, there really shouldn't be a problem.    
 
I have a question for you now...  Have you really seen it to be true that 
Bricks (PC Bricks, who are built for concept) are *really* more powerful in 
head to head combat with other character types?  I just haven't found that to 
even come close to the case.  And again, maybe I'm just coming from a 
different gaming experience, but almost all of the Brick PCs that I've seen 
are, overall, the weakest character type in the game.  It seems that they have 
to spend a very high percentage of their points on their Characteristics just 
to make them combat balanced with the other characters, (combat balanced, not 
more powerful) and they have little points left to flesh out their characters. 
That results in a lot of non-combat adventure time spent following PCs around 
who actually had the points to get all those valuable non-combat Skills and 
such.  So you can see why I'm reacting so strongly against the proposal that 
Str needs to be more costly.  I guess the best analogy would be for the mayor 
to say the poor need more taxes placed upon them.  (that's an exaggeration, of 
course, but it shows my perspective.) 
 
Take care, 
'Lynx  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:49:23 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Military HEROs 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-- 12 and 1/2 years in the RAAF as an avionics tech working on Iroquois  
and Squirrels.  Now working for a civilian company doing the same thing  
in the same place. 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"aregalad@miami.edu\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Cc: "Hero System Mailing List" <champ-l@omg.org> 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 98 20:42:22  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Wish: Benchmarks (was: A Sample Character) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sat, 10 Jan 1998 10:41:44 -0500 (EST), aregalad@miami.edu wrote: 
 
>Howdy, 
> 
>> >Actually, you have just proved my point and validated my observations 
>> >about INT. You are right about ONE thing. When I said INT is only good for 
>> >Perception and INT rolls I neglected to mention skill rolls (I kind of 
>> >lumped them with INT rolls - my bad). The thing is that skills based on 
>> >INT and INT rolls have the same breakdown - hence they have the same 
>> >problem. Nothing about my argument is invalidated.  
>>  
>> Actually it was, but if you add in INT based skills, then yes, it makes 
>> a VAST difference, and as far as you go, I agree with you, but there 
>> are alternatives. 
> 
>I'm sorry - when you say "Actually it was," what do you mean? 
 
Invalidated, totally. 
 
> As far as INT based skills making a huge difference 
>- not really, at least not relative to other characteristic rolls and the 
>skills they modify. 
 
The invalidation because there are camapigns which emphasise skills 
rather than powers, and in such campaigns, INT is very effective. 
 
>As far as other alternatives - I'm dealing with INT as it is now and 
>assuming that HERO is not going to add uses for INT (even though I think 
>it would be a good thing). I've already said that I would modify my 
>benchmarks if HERO officially modify's the effectiveness of INT. 
> 
>> Alternatively, as in the example of the Repartee rules, you can have an 
>> INT CV, which would be appropriate for many mental powers, and, in a FH 
>> game, you can allow wizards to have INT/3 spells active instead of the 
>> INT/5 that is more appropriate for the modern era. 
> 
>We could, but we don't. :] 
 
Why not try it? I'm not running a Hero campaign at the moment, but it 
strikes me as being eminently sensible for non-superhero campaigns. 
 
>I want benchmarks (they don't have to be mine - 
>of course - but benchmarks of some sort) to be an official part of 5th Ed. 
>HERO. For this to be the case they have to be based on official rules - 
>not house rules or genre specific rules (as good as they may be). 
 
That I agree with 
 
>> Anyway, as I stated earlier, INT is very cheap for its utility. 
> 
>I'm not at all concerned with cost. 
 
! 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Egyptoid <Egyptoid@aol.com> 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:36:01 EST 
Subject: Cloven Hooves Clacking with Joy 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Well now I am just the happiest little pig on the whole farm. 
 
After much digging and rooting, and getting my snout dirty 
in weirdly named files such as "autoexec.bat" and "config.sys", 
I was greeted by the sweetest truffle I had tasted in a long time. 
 
The prize you ask? 
 
I got HERO-MAKER to work on my Mac!  
 
Yes it's true. That old work-horse DOS program now resides in a little 
RealPC emulation window and I can now produce and track characters on 
my Power-Mac. Like with point totals and balancing and everything! 
 
Now if I could only remember some campaign and character concepts... 
--  
Egyptoid 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Egyptoid <Egyptoid@aol.com> 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:36:05 EST 
Subject: Re:  Re: Out of order messages 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 1/10/98 5:38:19 AM, John.Desmarais@ibm.net wrote: 
>>Is anyone else receiving messages that are replies to messages they 
>>don't get until later? I have recently received a spate of messages 
>>that are arriving out of order. 
>Frequently - I've just learned to ignore it. 
 
I may be wrong, but I believe the phenomenon arises from 
the people responding being in a different time zone. Or maybe 
it's a routing issue  :) 
-- 
Ell-Man, recently back from the West Coast.... 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 17:29:15 -0500 
From: Gypsy <klgeorge@gte.net> 
Subject: Re: Out of order messages 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
Filksinger wrote: 
 
> Is anyone else receiving messages that are replies to messages they 
> don't get until later? I have recently received a spate of messages 
> that are arriving out of order. 
> 
> Filksinger 
 
I have that problem all the time. I thought it had something to do with 
my server. 
 
Gypsy 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff@netcom.com> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:24:50 -0800 (PST) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
> At 09:22 AM 1/8/98 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
> >A character who increases their Figured Characteristics via STR is 
> >taking advantage of how STR works, both in the game and real life. If 
> >I decided to get harder to knock out, more resistant to blunt impacts, 
> >and increase my ability to recover from fatigue, strength building 
> >exercises would be a major part of it. In fact, I'm not certain how I 
> >would go about building up those three in the real world without it. 
 
Bob Greenwade writes:  
>    Well, the body builds up something through use.  Recovery from fatigue 
> can be increased, for example, by getting fatigued and letting your body 
> recover from it; this can be done by jogging.  Similarly, the other two 
> could be built up by having a couple of friends come over two or three 
> times a week and beat you into unconsciousness (though personally I'd opt 
> for the weight training). 
 
     Well, if you want to build up your ability to withstand blunt 
impact, try taking up boxing :-).  I'm more than half serious.  A lot 
of the "knockout" effect from blunt impact is shock - and one of the 
best ways to get used to being hit a lot is to go out and get hit a 
lot. 
 
     For fatigue training, try taking up wrestling.  In scientific 
studies (I'll have to bug my brother to find out exactly which) they 
compared the endurance of numerous professional atheletes.  Marathon 
runners were the highest, but second highest were wrestlers. 
 
Steven J. Owens 
puff@netcom.com 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:45:12 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:17 AM 1/10/98 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>> >KJM> Many times it would be helpful to "pop" in behind someone, or in 
>> >KJM> another room(all within line of sight). 
>> > 
>> >"Teleportation" is the power you are looking for. 
>>  
>>    Teleportation, Usable Against Others, Indirect, Transdimensional, Self 
>> Only? 
> 
>As soon as you put "Usable Against Others" and "Self Only" on the same 
>Power, it's a good sign that you're talking nonsense.:) Teleport, only 
>usable as soon as generated is the ability you want (for the Duplicates); 
>no other modifiers are required. 
 
   To word it more precisely:  UAO, Only vs Alternate Selves in Other 
Universes and/or Timelines. 
 
>>    No thank you.  Duplication at Range is much simpler and more direct. 
> 
>Does it make more sense for the cost of this ability to be related to the 
>point cost of the duplicate, or the distance at which the character can do 
>it? IMO it's definitely the latter. 
 
   Seems to me, about equally strongly, the former. 
   It really depends on the player's and GM's conception of the power, 
though. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff@netcom.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions Survey 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:48:16 -0800 (PST) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Bob Greenwade writes: 
 
> campaign.  The first section is for beginning superhero characters, PC and 
> NPC alike; the second is for agent-level NPCs in a superhero world. 
 
     I mostly run superheroes.  Agents are developed either as cannon 
fodder, in which case I tend to set their stats by estimating how many 
shot it would take to take them out, or as minor characters, in which 
case they tend to have lots 'n lots of development. 
 
     I can give "averages", but really these are just "poles" that the 
numbers cluster around.  Typically, the higher you go in one area, the 
lower you are in another.  E.g. bricks might have 50 STR but only 3 
SPD. 
 
>    Average Damage Class of a beginning character's main attack: 
 
     8 dice. 
 
>    Average Damage Class of "desperation" attacks (such as a Haymaker, or 
> any heavily-Limited Power): 
 
     Up to 12 dice, but typically they involve serious drawbacks (e.g. 
a "lightning strike" that sucks up all available END). 
 
>    Average beginning total PD/ED: 
 
     20 PD/20 ED 
 
>    Average beginning DEX: 
 
     23 Dex 
 
>    Average beginning SPD: 
 
     4, usually, assuming some training.  Characters with exceptional 
attacks or defenses are usually required to take 3. 
 
>    Average beginning EGO: 
 
     13-18, depending on the character.  More often 13 than 18, more's 
the pity. 
 
>    Average number of beginning Skills: 
 
     About 30 points worth. 
 
>    Starting base points: 
>    Average beginning Disadvantage total: 
 
     100 + 150 or, sometimes, 150 +100, for campaigns where the characters 
are a little more powerful or more experienced. 
 
>    Average Damage Class of an NPC agent's main attack: 
 
     Agent, 6 to 8 dice.  Essentially, with 6 dice you're going to 
average 21 points damage, which will *barely* get through the typical 
defenses.  Depending on the caliber of the agents (and the amount of 
preparation they get - they'll haul out the heavier weapons if they 
know they're going to be attacked by heroes) they may have either more 
dice, or advantages (like the armor piercing rounds...).  Typically I 
prefer agents ot have more sophisticated weapons at lower dice, as 
that makes them more interesting but not as much of a threat. 
 
>    Average NPC agent total PD/ED: 
 
     Again, depends on the grade of the agent and the situation. 
Typical agents will be one or two punches.  Since the average hero 
attack is 8 dice, which is average 28 stun, the agent will have 13 to 
18 points of armor.  Two average shots getting in will take out the 
high range of this.  Higher grade agents will typically have access to 
more expensive equipment, with higher defenses, not to mention being a 
bit tougher all-around, requiring maybe three to four punches. 
 
     Agents engaging in a planned assault will wear heavier armor 
(harder to conceal, harder on endurance, though this seldom comes up). 
Agents engagning in a planned defense will wear even heavier armor 
(since they don't have to worry as much about hampered movement) and 
often use barriers, emplaced weapons, etc. 
 
>    Average NPC agent DEX: 
 
     I decide this similar to the damage/defense issue, save that 
because we're on a bell curve, it's a bit trickier.  I usually don't 
bother to calculate, just assign by feel.  The average hero attacking 
the average normal (e.g. dex 10) has a 14- hit roll.  The average 
agent has at least 12 or 13 DEX, taking this down to 13-.  Elite 
agents will have 15 DEX or higher, taking it down to 12-, and the 
highest will get as high as 18 DEX, though at this point they start 
looking like low-level supers.   
 
     Typically elite agents at the highest levels are indeed low-level 
supers, created by some mastermind as cyborg shock troops or the like. 
Depending, again, on the nature of the organization and the level of 
challenge I want to create, the agents may well use excellent tactics 
and teamwork to be even more deadly. 
      
>    Average NPC agent SPD: 
 
     3 SPD average, 4 SPD for high elites. 
 
>    Average NPC agent base points: 
 
     50 to 100 to 150, depending on how much fleshing out each agent 
gets.  The faceless legions will get 50, members of agent teams will 
typically get 100, long-running agents will get 150.  Some agents tend 
to have more depth and breadth than super PCs (not surprising). 
 
>    Average NPC agent Disadvantage total: 
 
     Varies as above. 
 
>    I'll return the results to the list, and forward them to Steven Long in 
> case he's interested. 
 
     Go right ahead.  Hm.  I'm going to CC this to the list as well, it 
might provoke some interesting conversations. 
 
Steven J. Owens 
puff@netcom.com 
puff@rt1.net 
http://www.rt1.net/puff 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net> 
Subject: Damage Benchmarks 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 19:30:01 -0600 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I would like to see something that listed benchmarks for Damage in terms of 
volts or amps, pounds TNT,  and so on. It could give a better idea of how to 
translate things, and also let the characters know just how powerfull that 
12d6 EB is. 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 19:59:25 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Subject: Re: STR: Underpriced? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 9 Jan 1998, Opal wrote: 
 
>  j > But what reason could you have given for your thief to be one of the  
>  j > strongest people on the planet? Adding STR just because "the point  
>  j > buyback allows me to get it for free" is the excuse rules-rapists use  
>  j > to justify getting away with this.  
>  j >  
>  j > IMO, all this argument about "STR is broken" is silly. Either your  
>  j > character should have a 20 STR or not, or a 30 PD or not. If it does,  
>  j > pay the points (one way or another). If not, then don't give him a  
>  j > higher STR just because you can get away with it.  
>  j >  
>  j > John Lansford  
>   
> I agree... I think the characters that end up being able to get  
> 'free strength' when thier STR just shouldn't be that high, have  
> probably taken thier figured stats up too high...  I mean, if your  
> thief isn't meant to be all that strong, why can he jump of a  
> castle wall without breaking something (high PD: ~5)?  
 
Well, at first pass I'll mention that making this character was my 
introduction to Champions. It was difficult to grasp at first what all the 
different stats meant and what benefit I could get. I got to look over a 
BBB for a little while, but mostly I had to use HEROMAKER. Having few 
Fantasy-type sample characters to look at, I had no idea what a "good" 
value was. But if something were called "Physical Defense," I figured I 
should put some points into it. 
 
As it turned out, my character had the highest PD of the group, including 
the tough barbarian-type. However, in justification of my PD value (8), I 
assume it represents his incredible slipperiness and ability to "roll" 
with punches (or even, perhaps, the ground). He's not a tough guy--I 
bought CON and BODY to 9. However, as a psionic, I needed to buy up his 
REC as well--otherwise he wouldn't be able to stay invisible, etc., 
for long without passing out--his END is nothing to speak of, and he's 
speed 4 (*extremely* fast in this campaign.) 
 
Assuming those are the values I wanted (they've become a part of my 
character through years of play), I find it a little--frustrating, in 
retrospect, that as some have put it "I paid points for a low STR."  
Furthermore, I could have saved lives last session, including one of the 
PCs, if only I had a few more points of STR. I guess I'm just pointing out 
that these abstract, mathematical arguments about point costs and such 
aren't just tidbits of intellectual trivia, they affect real people 
playing in real campaigns. I can see how the current STR situation bothers 
people, and how it's not always enough to say "play it your way in your 
campaign," since not everyone has the time or motivation to examine the 
system in every detail. 
 
I probably shouldn't, but I feel like I built a "bad" character, and 
someone else had to pay the price. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-9,14-16 
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts) 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 21:12:04 EST 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>     Something that I have seen done (albeit only with body) is to  
>have the  
>     stats of the actual baseline normal NPC be a couple points below  
>10.  
>     Thus, every Shmoe off the street is defined as having a 5 or an 8  
> 
>     BODY, rather than a 10. Maybe this should be expanded to cover  
>all of  
>     the characteristics. 
 
I was poking through my copy of Lands of Mystery the other day, and Aaron 
Allston suggested in there that generic natives have straight 8s in their 
primary characteristics, with the shaved points going toward the skills 
they _had_ to have to survive.  I think this was used in another Justice 
Inc. book as well (if I ever get them back from my brother, I'll check). 
 
Leah 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear. 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 10 Jan 1998 21:18:16 -0500 
Lines: 27 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
>> "Teleportation" is the power you are looking for. 
 
BG>    Teleportation, Usable Against Others, Indirect, Transdimensional, 
BG> Self Only? 
 
No, the duplicate has Teleportation.  For himself.  Nothing wrong with 
that. 
 
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Charset: noconv 
 
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q955jo8z3490T8ZLqwj/v2jm8CsX9/UqLO2uX+Fpjellv5sXN+HWVowAM8BiWv46 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 10 Jan 1998 21:20:06 -0500 
Lines: 26 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "F" == Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> writes: 
 
F> Disagreed.  For one thing, the above exception to Damage Class math 
F> applies to *Advantages*, and Advantages only.  Strength is a 
F> Characteristic, not an Advantage. 
 
Martial Arts damage classes cost 4 points per DC.  HA costs 3 points per 
DC.  There are a number of cases where DC does not equal active points. 
 
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 20:39:27 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Subject: STR Cost + 5th Ed. Suggestion 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Firelynx16 wrote: 
 
> I agree with you that Str can be misused to get points for free, but almost 
> anything in the game can be misused.  It's up to the GM to keep players in 
> line on all points, not just whether someone bought up Str when their concept 
> doesn't call for it, just to get less expensive Figured Characteristics.  Just 
> as the GM keeps the players from abusing Power Frameworks, he/she has the same 
> responsibility when dealing with Str. 
>  
> That said, then if the GM *is* doing his/her job and keeps Str from being 
> abused, there really shouldn't be a problem.    
 
This is a fair statement (to which someone will respond by saying anyone 
can "reverse engineer" concept in order to attain GM approval), but I 
should also point out that the more of these things a system has, the more 
cumbersome, confusing, and challenging it is to GM. It's exactly that kind 
of inaccessibility that makes something like Fuzion seem like a good idea 
to salespeople. 
 
GMs, especially new GMs, need some help if they are expected to enforce 
the spirit over the letter of the rules. It would help if they didn't have 
to guess at the spirit of the rules. For instance, it could say in the 
BBB:  
 
"You might notice that STR and some other characteristics give you 
more than their points' worth in figured characteristics and other 
effects. It might seem that you're getting more than you pay for. It is 
for exactly this reason that characters are forbidden to buy down more 
than one figured characteristic--not enforcing such a rule would allow 
characters to gain infinite points! However, characteristics are intended 
to represent a package of effects associated with the basic abilities of a 
character. We made figured characteristics more difficult to buy up 
individually to discourage buying the characteristics' effects "a la 
carte." GMs should keep a close watch on characteristic values in their 
campaigns, and make sure that they are believable given the concept of the 
character. If characteristic values are left unchecked, some players will 
buy them up to unreasonable levels out of pressure to compete--leaving 
precious few points remaining for unique abilities and skills that will 
help differentiate the characters, making them more realistic and 
enjoyable to play. It is a good idea to encourage players to have both 
strong and weak characteristics. Furthermore, GMs should warn players who 
buy up more than a few figured characteristics that they're probably not 
doing themselves a favor... it's best to leave these values near where the 
characteristics "figure" they should be." 
 
I *DEFINITELY* want to see a lot of this in 5th edition--otherwise, we'll 
be getting another set of rules whose spirit perhaps only veterans 
understand. Although, given many of the debates on this list, even that is 
in question. 
 
GURPS had sidebars on every page--but their sidebars were places where 
they threw more discontiguous rules at you. How about having sidebars that 
explain some of the rationale and spirit behind the rules on the same 
page? That way, the rules are all available as reference, without the 
meta-discussion directly in the way, while at the same time, the spirit 
of the law is right there by the letter there for all to see.  
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: mlknight@pop.mindspring.com 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 22:38:34 -0500 
From: Michelle Knight <mlknight@mindspring.com> 
Subject: Re: Finding Other Gamers 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Hello there, 
 
 
   I just found this site about a week or two ago.  Check it out.  I 
believe it's 
what you're looking for. Then again, I could be wrong. :) 
 
 
http://www.accessdenied.net 
 
 
 
Michelle 
 
 
>> From: Roger A. Wesson, Jr. <uraeus@bunt.com> 
>> To: champ-l@omg.org 
>> Subject: Finding Other Gamers 
>> Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 10:15 PM 
>>  
>>   I was wondering if any one with a web site has put together a listing 
>> of gamers, HERO or otherwise. 
>>   It would be nice if you were looking for players, or a GM, to go to a 
>list 
>> and see if there is anyone in your area. 
 
==================================================== 
Michelle Knight                            Main:  mlknight@mindspring.com 
Winston-Salem, NC USA              Backup: MLKnight01@aol.com 
                                                   ICQ: 2083514/AIM: Mystic302 
   
  Everyone's ignorant; just on different subjects.  --Albert Eintsein 
==================================================== 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Characteristics Too High 
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 22:25:21 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Friday, January 09, 1998 9:56 PM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
 
>At 09:26 AM 1/8/98 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
<snip> 
>>This *is* a tenuous parallel, because even Cap -- with his 
colossally 
>>impressive and exaggerated musculature -- is explicitly a 20 STR 
(800 lb. 
>>maximum).  Created by a HERO player, he'd probably have a 30. :/ 
> 
>   Question:  Is this 800 lbs a bench press, or a dead lift?  The 
things I 
>know about weightlifting could be counted on one's fingers, but one 
of them 
>happens to be that what one can bench press is typically about half 
what 
>one can dead lift.  If that 800 pound max is a bench press, then 
Cap's STR 
>would come to about 25, which is what I'd give him from observation 
and such. 
 
 
It isn't a benchpress, its an old lift that was used in the days 
before clean and jerk and snatch. The press, as best as I can tell, 
was simply getting it from the ground to your head. 
 
<snip> 
 
Filksinger 


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