Week Ending January 17, 1998
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From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:54:45 EST
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long)
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In a message dated 98-01-10 21:31:43 EST, you write:
Martial Arts damage classes cost 4 points per DC. HA costs 3 points per
DC. There are a number of cases where DC does not equal active points. >>
I've seen the MA DC costing 4, but where does it say that each 3pt HA equals
one DC?
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From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 02:05:24 EST
Subject: Re: STR Cost + 5th Ed. Suggestion
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In a message dated 98-01-10 21:51:21 EST, you write:
<< On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Firelynx16 wrote:
> I agree with you that Str can be misused to get points for free, but almost
> anything in the game can be misused. It's up to the GM to keep players in
> line on all points, not just whether someone bought up Str when their
concept
> doesn't call for it, just to get less expensive Figured Characteristics.
Just
> as the GM keeps the players from abusing Power Frameworks, he/she has the
same
> responsibility when dealing with Str.
>
> That said, then if the GM *is* doing his/her job and keeps Str from being
> abused, there really shouldn't be a problem.
This is a fair statement (to which someone will respond by saying anyone
can "reverse engineer" concept in order to attain GM approval), but I
should also point out that the more of these things a system has, the more
cumbersome, confusing, and challenging it is to GM. It's exactly that kind
of inaccessibility that makes something like Fuzion seem like a good idea
to salespeople.
GMs, especially new GMs, need some help if they are expected to enforce
the spirit over the letter of the rules. It would help if they didn't have
to guess at the spirit of the rules. For instance, it could say in the
BBB:
"You might notice that STR and some other characteristics give you
more than their points' worth in figured characteristics and other
effects. It might seem that you're getting more than you pay for. It is
for exactly this reason that characters are forbidden to buy down more
than one figured characteristic--not enforcing such a rule would allow
characters to gain infinite points! However, characteristics are intended
to represent a package of effects associated with the basic abilities of a
character. We made figured characteristics more difficult to buy up
individually to discourage buying the characteristics' effects "a la
carte." GMs should keep a close watch on characteristic values in their
campaigns, and make sure that they are believable given the concept of the
character. If characteristic values are left unchecked, some players will
buy them up to unreasonable levels out of pressure to compete--leaving
precious few points remaining for unique abilities and skills that will
help differentiate the characters, making them more realistic and
enjoyable to play. It is a good idea to encourage players to have both
strong and weak characteristics. Furthermore, GMs should warn players who
buy up more than a few figured characteristics that they're probably not
doing themselves a favor... it's best to leave these values near where the
characteristics "figure" they should be."
I *DEFINITELY* want to see a lot of this in 5th edition--otherwise, we'll
be getting another set of rules whose spirit perhaps only veterans
understand. Although, given many of the debates on this list, even that is
in question.
GURPS had sidebars on every page--but their sidebars were places where
they threw more discontiguous rules at you. How about having sidebars that
explain some of the rationale and spirit behind the rules on the same
page? That way, the rules are all available as reference, without the
meta-discussion directly in the way, while at the same time, the spirit
of the law is right there by the letter there for all to see.
>>
>From one Texan to another, I like this a lot. They could even use the three
analysts from later Champions supplements to explain things like this in the
sidebars. In addition to examples, examples, examples!!!
It wasn't until I joined this list that I realized just how disparate the
'understanding' of the rules among the different GMs was. The different
groups I've been in all had a couple of new takes on the rules, but they were
minor, and otherwise very consistant. Seeing the extremely wide range of
'takes' on the system just points out how vague and open to interpretation
they really are. And how futile arguments about those vague rules can be. :)
'Lynx
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From: Doc Weird <DocWeird@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 02:40:43 EST
Subject: Re:.STR Cost + 5th Ed. Suggestion
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In a message dated 98-01-11 02:22:11 EST, Firelynx16@AOL.COM writes:
<< Seeing the extremely wide range of
'takes' on the system just points out how vague and open to interpretation
they really are. And how futile arguments about those vague rules can be. :)
'Lynx
>>
You must realize that this is the LOVE OF "DEBATE" that spurs some of
these ideas as much as Love of the Game
--------------------------------------------------------Doc
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Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:49:43 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa
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At 03:03 AM 1/11/98 -0800, Captain Spith wrote:
> In fact, there ARE Adjustment Power effects that are canon by the
>BBB. I know it may seem paltry to those in the 'point crock' camp, but
>that nifty little adjustment power advantage of "affects all powers of a
>give sfx" applies EXACTLY in this instance. If the attack is bought to
>drain/supress/whatever all powers of X SFX at once, an entire EC - by
>definition - will be affected across the board. I have always used this
>as a defining point for ECs; by definition of an EC, an attack vs. SFX
>will apply to all EC powers. I'm sure there are also other game effects
>which work on this.
Yes, but this is a consequence of the Power (which had to buy a +2 Advantage
for the privilege), not of the EC. I could design the character without the
EC and the same consequence would still follow.
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 00:17:08 -0800
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On Saturday, January 10, 1998 12:43 AM, Len Carpenter wrote:
<snip>
>To which Filksinger replied:
<snip>
>>
>>Here's a thought. The deadlift, squat, or clean and jerk may be
>>interesting, but they aren't necessarily what is being used in the
STR
>>chart. A number of people have demonstrated the ability to lift
>>weights much greater than the squat or deadlift. They place their
>>shoulders under something and lift it by an inch or so, or use a
>>harness for lifting a similar amount. I recall one man who, every
>>birthday, would lift a weight considerably more than 1,000 lbs once
>>for each year old he is. He was 72 last I checked.
>>
>> If we could find out the absolute maximum that any human has ever
>> gotten off the ground, that may be what we want to use to bring the
>> STR chart back in line.
>>
>> Filksinger
>
>
>I don't think such absolute max figure would be very useful,
considering the
>sometimes elaborate means used to achieve such lifts and the very
limited
>usefulness of such lifting methods. Leafing through my old 1985
edition of
>the Guinness Book of World Records, I see that Paul Anderson, in
1957, once
>raised 6,270 lbs. using a back lift (weight raised off trestles).
Going back
>to 1895, a Mrs. Josephine Blatt once raised 3,564 lbs. using a
>hip-and-harness lift (whatever that is.)
Thanks for the figures. The hip-and-harness lift I believe is when a
heavy harness is fitted to your hips and shoulders, and a hook between
your legs is attached to the weight.
>My take on the game's lift figures is that they're a measure of
useful work
>can be done with STR, such as picking up and carrying a person or
object of
>up to the maximum mass--albeit carrying the person at far from top
speed--or
>carrying that maximum mass in gear well-distributed over the body. A
>character with a 10 STR could, with effort, pick up and carry a man
weighing
>up to 220 lbs. from a burning building, carrying him the way
firefighters are
>taught, using the strength of the entire body, not just the arms. If
the
>victim to be rescued weighs more than this, the rescuer would have to
get
>another person's help, drag the heavy victim, or try Pushing his STR.
The shoulder lift is a useful lift. Imagine you are under a car with
your leg trapped. A shoulder lift could be used to move the car, even
if no one on earth could deadlift it. Additionally, even if it
couldn't be deadlifted by the definition of the various power lifting
rules, it might be lifted just enough using a deadlift-style lift.
>As Filksinger mentioned in another post, the weight a character can
press
>could be viewed as roughly half what he can lift. That's a
rule-of-thumb
>I've used every since I started converting Marvel characters into
Champions
>stats several years ago. Hence, a 23 STR hero could safely press 300
kg, a
>25 STR man 400 kg.
>
>Note the adverb "safely." Since Tokyo Mark's response, I've been
thinking a
>bit about the use of STR in athletic contests like weightlifting.
Let's say
>that the amount of mass a character can press above his head without
worry of
>injuring himself is indeed half what he can normally lift. A 20 STR
>character could press 400/2 = 200 kg without risk of injury.
>
>Now place him in a contest where the stakes are high, as in going for
the
>gold, but it's not a life-or-death matter. He tries to Push his STR.
An
>automatic STR boost of +5 with a successful EGO roll in such a
contest isn't
>warranted, but perhaps a graduated STR boost is. So for every two
points by
>which he makes his EGO roll, he gains a +1 STR Push.
>
>This Push entails a risk of injury, though. He now must make a CON
roll at
>-1 per point of STR Pushed. If he fails, he suffers, say, 1d6 or 2d6
of
>normal damage to an appropriate body location, with no subtraction
from this
>damage for his PD. If he fails the modified CON roll by 5 or more,
he
>suffers 3d6 or 4d6 damage (again ignoring his PD) and an automatic
impairing
>injury to the body location--he throws his back out, tears a bicep
muscle,
>and so on.
>
>For example, an 18 CON weightlifter has Pushed his STR by +4, so his
modified
>CON roll is 13-4=9 or less. If he rolls a 14 or higher, he suffers
the
>impairing injury.
>
>The body location injury should be reasonable, of course. ("Let's
see, you
>rolled a 3 for body location . . . okay, I rule your character
strained
>himself so badly he accidentally bit the tip of his tongue off.")
>
>In fact, some form of self-injury rule could apply any time a
character
>Pushes his STR or another power, depending on the power's SFX.
Maybe there
>should be a small chance of burning out an EB that is Pushed, or some
such
>restriction. So in addition to expending END at a higher rate, the
character
>who performs a Push under any circumstance risks his personal
well-being.
>
This is all very interesting, but it makes the initial problem worse,
not better. Presently, the best deadlift in the world is roughly
equivalent to a 20 STR lift. If weightlifters used even a small push
to reach that 20 STR, then the world's best wouldn't even be a twenty,
they'd be less. This puts us in the position that the world's best
weightlifters are only about an 18 STR, making even characters with 19
or 20 technically superhuman.
My suggestion was intended to tweak the chart a bit. As it stands now,
the best humans should clearly be capable of having a 30 INT, EGO, and
PRE. Where the best humans are for lifting STR, assuming a deadlift,
is a 20 if you forbid pushing, lower if you allow it. The best CON,
DEX, and BODY are rather difficult to determine.
Another problem we have is that the fastest normal human on earth,
assuming a 20 DEX, is barely superior to anyone else when it comes to
feats of dexterity. If an average man can do it fifty percent of the
time, our fastest human can only make it just more than 75% of the
time. It becomes impossible to impress people with your speed, as your
chances of failing are just too great.
If the lifting weight on the STR chart were a shoulder lift, the
strongest man ever would have a 34 or 35 STR. This is too high. It is
also six times the world's best deadlift, and then some. However, it
does give us a possibility.
Let us assume that the most that a person could lift by a measurable
amount, under ideal conditions, is 2.5 times the most _useful_ lift
you could get. Since the best ever was 6,270 lbs, this amount divided
by 2.5 gives a maximum lift of 2,508 lbs, or 1,140 kg. If this number
is compared to the Champion's lifting range, we get a 28 STR. Some
heroes, with GM permission, could be even stronger without being
superhuman, particularly in the superhero genres. Captain America is a
perfect example.
If this were done, then it gives less granularity at heroic levels. It
would make a greater, more significant difference between average and
very good. It would also bring most of the published characters back
into a reasonable range.
Filksinger
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Rick Holding\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 98 10:27:11
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long)
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On Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:39:07 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
>Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
><<Snipped>> <<But nothing wrong with what you said>>
>> q> It's CON that's more important here, to prevent you being stunned as
>> q> (opposed to being unconcious). The high Stun numbers which crop up mean
>> q> thatif you're going to go under, then go under you will.
>>
>> Stunned means your CV is pathetic... but you still have one. Unconscious
>> means your CV is 0.
>
> CV is halved if stunned
And in FH, it usually isn't that great to start with
>> >> And it adds to your sword's damage.
>>
>> q> Again, minimally - 1 or 2 DC.
>>
>> And again, it still adds, and at 15-20 Strength it is more like 3-4DC. The
>> point is not the the ammount Strength adds; the point is that it *does*
>> add, and that it adds much more than the character paid for.
>
> I've forgotten if the start of this was referring to FH. If it was,
>then strength minimums apply and you need that 18 strength to swing that 2
>handed sword. If you are using a long sword (strength min 13) then 18-20
>stregnth will only give 1 DC.
Correct.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 02:42:42 -0800
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On Saturday, January 10, 1998 1:03 AM, TokyoMark wrote:
>>In fact, some form of self-injury rule could apply any time a
character
>>Pushes his STR or another power, depending on the power's SFX.
Maybe there
>>should be a small chance of burning out an EB that is Pushed, or
some such
>>restriction. So in addition to expending END at a higher rate, the
character
>>who performs a Push under any circumstance risks his personal
well-being.
>>
>
>I'm not sure I'd use this as a rule, but it's not unrealistic. A
number of
>people have been injured in weight lifting. Sometimes sickeningly.
I'll
>never forget watching one of those 'World's Strongest Man' shows on
ESPN
>(It was an old one with Ken Patera). In the last event (The
refrigerator
>carry) one of the lifters very obviously blew out his knee.
Just last weekend, one of the top weightlifters in the world had a
heart attack and died during a lift. It is not a safe sport.
Filksinger
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Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 03:03:16 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa
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Vox Ludator! wrote:
>
> At 05:59 PM 1/9/98, qts wrote:
> >It only has no mechanical effect if you as the GM say so. I seldom use
> >ECs, and don't play with large ones a la Champions, but it has
> >previously been suggested that once a power within the EC has been
> >Drained to the point where the EC bonus is counted (usually half) then
> >the other EC powers should suffer equally sounds fine to me.
>
> Incorrect. The proper way to say this is "it only HAS a mechanical effect
> if you as the GM say so" (emphasis mine) -- no mechanical effect is the
> by-the-book interpretation, whereas the Adjustment Power effects are a house
> ruling.
In fact, there ARE Adjustment Power effects that are canon by the
BBB. I know it may seem paltry to those in the 'point crock' camp, but
that nifty little adjustment power advantage of "affects all powers of a
give sfx" applies EXACTLY in this instance. If the attack is bought to
drain/supress/whatever all powers of X SFX at once, an entire EC - by
definition - will be affected across the board. I have always used this
as a defining point for ECs; by definition of an EC, an attack vs. SFX
will apply to all EC powers. I'm sure there are also other game effects
which work on this.
For example, an Ice-powered character in the desert will have ALL
his/her powers affected by the heat/dryness. A non-frameworked
character may on the other hand have some ice abilities and some nonice
abilities, thus be less affected by the situation. The GM has at
his/her disposal unlimited possibilities for putting characters in
situations and/or environments in which their SFX are played upon, in
fact, this is the GM's job.
Also, as long as I'm blathering about it already, it is significant
to note that ECs offer a SMALLER point break than other frameworks, thus
should be less limiting. It has also been pointed out that perhaps ALL
frameworks are point crocks. And perhaps STR is a point crock. And
Martial Arts is probably a point crock....
I think that perhaps everything taken together may not be quite as
broken as some think. Maybe there are - in fact - actually only a few
aspects which are instead OVERpriced, rather than the seeming
unbelievable percentage of the system being UNDERpriced.... Just a
couple o' thoughts....
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
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Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 03:17:44 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Characteristics Max Disadvantage
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Trevor Barrie wrote:
>
> On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Captain Spith wrote:
>
> > First of all, lemme state that I do NOT believe in nearly any of the
> > claims abounding that STR is horribly underpriced (which people kept
> > typing in as 'overpriced') or that ECs are meaningless freebie points,
> > etc. I simply stay out of the discussions because nobody is ever going
> > to change their minds,
>
> Nonsense. Do you think I sprang from the womb with my opinions on such
> matters as the Great Linked Debate and the STR problem fully-formed?
> People on the list convinced me.
I am just hypothesizing that there was some passage of time between
the springing from the womb and your joining the list. Just possibly.
My point was simply that through all the dozens and scores of posts
that _I_ personally have read I have not noticed any (I'm not saying
there never _were_ any) converts to a new opinion on the matter(s).
Just for the record, the moment *I* sprang from the womb, I thought
that STR cost WAS a point crock, but before I joined the list, I had
decided for myself that it was not. No arguement given by the list so
far has changed my mind.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 03:22:14 -0800
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On Saturday, January 10, 1998 9:47 AM, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, Filksinger wrote:
>
<snip>
>> Ah. Well, if that type of trouble is the only one that causes you
>> problems, then I would have to cut it down to all Frameworks and
CON.
>
>It's hardly the only thing which gives me trouble, but it's several
orders
>of magnitude worse than a simple case of a cost being "off". One can
>accept that no point system is going to be perfect. However, it's far
from
>unreasonable to expect as a bare minimum that the system be able to
>distinguish between a useful ability and a drawback.
>
>(And this is something like the 20th or 30th time somebody in this
thread
>has said "Frameworks" when they mean "Elemetal Control", and it's
getting
>bloody annoying.)
I did _not_ say Frameworks when I meant Elemental Control. I said "all
Frameworks", so obviously I was admitting there was more than one.
Multipower can easily be a far greater point crock than EC, and VPP
can be even worse.
>> >> So with the ridiculous Limitation value of -1 for not being able
to
>> >> fire non-linked attacks together, you still don't come close to
the
>> >> cost savings of Multipower.
>> >
>> >You know, if you call your _own_ assumptions ridiculous, you're
not
>> >going to convince anybody.:) You're right; a -1 for "cannot be
used with
>> >certain other powers" is ridiculous; according to my BBB (pp
114-115),
>> >it's a -9 Limitation, except you need to pay full price for one of
>> >those powers.
>> >
>> >(Which isn't exactly right, but you get my point).
>>
>> If your point is that you agree with me that Multipower is also a
>> "point crock", and is not significantly better than EC in this
>> respect, then yes, I do.:)
>
>How on earth could that possibly have been my point, when it's the
exact
>opposite of what I said?
I said "if" for a reason.
>My point was that Champions specifies a certain amount of point break
for
>the drawback of not being able to use Powers simultaneously. Inventin
g
>your own mechanic to do this, assigning a cost to it which is
sometimes
>higher than the cost of Multipower, and using this to attempt to show
that
>Multipower is underpriced is a pretty feeble argument IMO.
I'm afraid I don't understand. I gave the Limitation the ridiculously
high figure of -1. You point out that it is closer to -9, yet you are
arguing that this is _not_ a point crock?
I don't understand this at all. The BBB gives STR a value of 1 STR per
5 pts., and you say that STR costs too little. I point out that
Multipower saves way to much, and you argue that I am wrong because
the BBB says so?
A value of -1 for that Limitation is ridiculous. A value of -9 is
_LUDICROUS_.
>> A character who increases their Figured Characteristics via STR is
>> taking advantage of how STR works, both in the game and real life.
If
>> I decided to get harder to knock out, more resistant to blunt
impacts,
>> and increase my ability to recover from fatigue, strength building
>> exercises would be a major part of it. In fact, I'm not certain how
I
>> would go about building up those three in the real world without
it.
>
>I don't see the relevance here at all.
All Base Characteristics (except PRE and COM) are cheaper than what it
costs to buy up their various abilities with Figured Characteristics,
skill levels, and powers. This is realistic, as in real life it is
these Base Characteristics that are usually exercised in order to
improve these abilities.
It is obvious from comparing the various characteristics to the cost
of buying what they do separately that characteristics are _supposed_
to be more efficient-- they always are. The separate components are
supposed to cost more than the characteristic. STR merely shows this
in Figured characteristics, other characteristics show this elsewhere.
Filksinger
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 03:46:24 -0800
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On Saturday, January 10, 1998 9:53 AM, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, Filksinger wrote:
>
>> If 1 DEX cost 10 pts, people would scream about how overpriced it
is.
>
>Probably.
Well, at least we agree on something.
>> How would they be able to prove this? By comparing it to other ways
to
>> buy all of its abilities, and show how many points buying them
saves.
>
>Yes. Similarly, if buying an Energy Blast not usable at night and an
>Energy Blast only usable at night cost a total amount less than just
>buying a straight Energy Blast, there would be a problem.
As above. This is a good sign, if not for this argument, then for
future discussions.
>> If DEX cost only 2 points for each point of DEX, this is how you
would
>> determine that it was underpriced.
>
>It does, actually. And yeah, I think it is underpriced at that cost.
>
>> >STR is different; with STR, you get things which aren't directly a
>> >part of STR's definition (the amount of HTH damage you can do and
the
>> >amount you can lift, carry or throw), and the value of those
things is
>> >more than the cost of the STR itself. In effect, the actual
physical
>> >strength costs nothing.
>>
>> STR is a characteristic, not a power.
>
>Yes, what of it?
>
>> It _is_ an inherent property of STR, when not a super power, that
it
>> makes you more resistant to injury and generally fitter, and this
>> quality would tend to be reflected in superstrength as well.
>
>These things most certainly are not an inherent property of the
ability to
>exert more physical force. They may correlate strongly with it, but
this
>is immaterial.
By this argument, no Figured Characteristics are valid. Are you
arguing that STR is overpriced, or that Figured Characteristics
shouldn't exist?
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"cptspith@teleport.com\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 98 12:13:50
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sun, 11 Jan 1998 03:03:16 -0800, Captain Spith wrote:
> Also, as long as I'm blathering about it already, it is significant
>to note that ECs offer a SMALLER point break than other frameworks, thus
>should be less limiting.
The benefit of an EC increases with the points in the EC, plus you can
have all effects in the EC active simultaneously, which is not true of
the MP
> I think that perhaps everything taken together may not be quite as
>broken as some think. Maybe there are - in fact - actually only a few
>aspects which are instead OVERpriced, rather than the seeming
>unbelievable percentage of the system being UNDERpriced.... Just a
>couple o' thoughts....
You do realise that you're going to be burned at the stake for heresy?
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 98 12:15:43
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Characteristics Too High
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On Sat, 10 Jan 1998 22:25:21 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>On Friday, January 09, 1998 9:56 PM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>
>>At 09:26 AM 1/8/98 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote:
><snip>
>>>This *is* a tenuous parallel, because even Cap -- with his
>colossally
>>>impressive and exaggerated musculature -- is explicitly a 20 STR
>(800 lb.
>>>maximum). Created by a HERO player, he'd probably have a 30. :/
>>
>> Question: Is this 800 lbs a bench press, or a dead lift? The
>things I
>>know about weightlifting could be counted on one's fingers, but one
>of them
>>happens to be that what one can bench press is typically about half
>what
>>one can dead lift. If that 800 pound max is a bench press, then
>Cap's STR
>>would come to about 25, which is what I'd give him from observation
>and such.
>
>
>It isn't a benchpress, its an old lift that was used in the days
>before clean and jerk and snatch. The press, as best as I can tell,
>was simply getting it from the ground to your head.
I've always viewed the weight you can lift based on STR to be a dead lift (lift from
ground to thigh level) - based on it being the maximum you could lift (and I can dead lift
weight that I haven't a chance of getting over my head).
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:58:24 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Filksinger wrote:
> By this argument, no Figured Characteristics are valid. Are you
> arguing that STR is overpriced, or that Figured Characteristics
> shouldn't exist?
I take it you haven't been reading the entire thread. (Which probably
makes you a tad more sensible than those of us who have...) I've mentioned
a couple of times that I'd like to see Figured Characteristics get the
axe; not only is it a good idea in its own right, but it's the cleanest
way of handling the STR/CON problem and it just generally makes it easier
to gauge the real cost of the Primary Characteristics.
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 07:02:03 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 01:46 PM 1/11/98 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>Another thing that cannot be properly simulated in Champions. No
>matter how good my hold, you still get a roll every phase. Assuming
>anything like a fair competition, you will escape within well under a
>minute, most of the time. OTOH, some judo holds, once successfully
>executed, are all but inescapable.
In my experience (given, wrestling, not judo), no hold is truly inescapable
-- not because of any flaws in technique, but simply due to the "penny
effect". Hold a penny at arm's length -- you'll find that after a minute or
so, it feels like it weighs about 20 lbs. On a similar principle, your
ability to hold an opponent degrades as you get fatigued from staying in
relatively the same position for long periods of time.
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:11:43 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Filksinger wrote:
> >> Ah. Well, if that type of trouble is the only one that causes you
> >> problems, then I would have to cut it down to all Frameworks and
> >> CON.
[...]
> I did _not_ say Frameworks when I meant Elemental Control. I said "all
> Frameworks", so obviously I was admitting there was more than one.
> Multipower can easily be a far greater point crock than EC, and VPP
> can be even worse.
Can you get into situations with Multipower and VPP where reducing the
level of an ability results in a higher cost? (Or vice-versa) I haven't
been able to find any.
> >My point was that Champions specifies a certain amount of point break
> >for the drawback of not being able to use Powers simultaneously.
> >Inventing your own mechanic to do this, assigning a cost to it which
> >is sometimes higher than the cost of Multipower, and using this to
> >attempt to show that Multipower is underpriced is a pretty feeble
> >argument IMO.
>
> I'm afraid I don't understand. I gave the Limitation the ridiculously
> high figure of -1.
That's not ridiculously high, it's ridiculously low.
> You point out that it is closer to -9, yet you are arguing that this is
> _not_ a point crock?
Correct. Do you have an argument for _why_ the "+0.1 Advantage on one
Power, -9 Limitation on the rest" set-up is under-costed? It seems fine to
me: if you want a character who can only have 60 pts worth of Power active
at a given time, it's going to cost you 60 pts plus some change, with the
amount of change proportional to the amount of versatility you have.
Perfectly reasonable.
> I don't understand this at all. The BBB gives STR a value of 1 STR per
> 5 pts.,
Assuming you mean 1 per 1.
> and you say that STR costs too little. I point out that Multipower
> saves way to much, and you argue that I am wrong because the BBB says
> so?
It's the nature of the argument that's different. If I said, "Look, here's
a new stat called 'FORCE': costs 10x, allows a character to lift 2^(FRC/5)
* 25 kg and do (FRC/5)d6 in hand-to-hand... hey STR is a lot cheaper than
that; STR must be broken", I don't imagine many people would listen.
Similarly, inventing a new Limitation to duplicate Multipowers, giving it
a cost higher than Multipower, and using this to attempt to show that
Multipowers are under-priced doesn't strike me as much of an argument.
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:22:34 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >> Teleportation, Usable Against Others, Indirect, Transdimensional, Self
> >> Only?
[...]
> To word it more precisely: UAO, Only vs Alternate Selves in Other
> Universes and/or Timelines.
To which I suppose the only real response is "HUH???". What on Earth are
all those Modifiers supposed to do, and why do you find them preferable to
simple Teleport, only when first appears?
> >> No thank you. Duplication at Range is much simpler and more direct.
> >
> >Does it make more sense for the cost of this ability to be related to the
> >point cost of the duplicate, or the distance at which the character can do
> >it? IMO it's definitely the latter.
>
> Seems to me, about equally strongly, the former.
Do you feel, then, that every character with Teleport should have to pay a
cost proportional to their total point cost? If not, how is this case any
different?
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From: LBoyd67730 <LBoyd67730@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:37:13 EST
Subject: Re: Military HEROs
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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To: champ-l@omg.org
i am active duty navy. electrican's mate nuclear powerd qualified
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:39:22 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Firelynx16 wrote:
> I agree with you that Str can be misused to get points for free, but
> almost anything in the game can be misused. It's up to the GM to keep
> players in line on all points, not just whether someone bought up Str
> when their concept doesn't call for it, just to get less expensive
> Figured Characteristics. Just as the GM keeps the players from abusing
> Power Frameworks, he/she has the same responsibility when dealing with
> Str.
You know, every time the STR problem comes up, somebody (usually 2 or 3
somebodies) comes out with the observation that players shouldn't take
STR's higher than their concept mandates. So, I'm going to ask, as
politely as I can, for somebody to explain how this relates even _vaguely_
to the issue at hand. Pretty please?
> That said, then if the GM *is* doing his/her job and keeps Str from
> being abused, there really shouldn't be a problem.
HOW? How does the GM only allowing some players access to the crock in any
way deal with the basic problem that STR _shouldn't_ be a Disadvantage?
> I have a question for you now... Have you really seen it to be true
> that Bricks (PC Bricks, who are built for concept) are *really* more
> powerful in head to head combat with other character types?
They are, of course, but I don't see the point in discussing it. When
mathematical evidence is available, anecdotal evidence is weak to the
point of being completely irrelevant.
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Subject: Heromaker questions
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:16:08 EST
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
A friend and I are working on an article on handicapped gamers. I have a
couple questions about the Heromaker software:
1. Does it let you save character sheets (or anything else it generates)
as a text file, or does it only output in some custom format?
2. Is the interface heavy on graphics like the AD&D CD-ROM that TSR put
out, or is it more text-based?
3. Related to question 2, is there a demo version out there on the net
someplace?
Feel free to respond privately unless you think the list would be
interested.
Leah
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 07:34:18 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear.
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At 09:18 PM 1/10/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>
>>> "Teleportation" is the power you are looking for.
>
>BG> Teleportation, Usable Against Others, Indirect, Transdimensional,
>BG> Self Only?
>
>No, the duplicate has Teleportation. For himself. Nothing wrong with
>that.
I think the original intent was to have the Duplicate's pop in at range
on his *initial* appearance, not the following Phase.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long)
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 11 Jan 1998 11:07:35 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "F" == Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> writes:
F> In a message dated 98-01-10 21:31:43 EST, you write:
F> Martial Arts damage classes cost 4 points per DC. HA costs 3 points per
F> DC. There are a number of cases where DC does not equal active points. >>
Fix your citation scheme; I wrote this, not you.
F> I've seen the MA DC costing 4, but where does it say that each 3pt HA
F> equals one DC?
Look at the Damage Class table, the row that says "1DC" = 1 pip of killing
damage or 1d6 normal damage. HA costs 3 points per 1d6 of normal damage.
1d6 of normal damage is 1DC. Therefore HA costs 3 points per 1DC. QED.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
\
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear.
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 11 Jan 1998 11:21:18 -0500
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
BG> I think the original intent was to have the Duplicate's pop in at
BG> range on his *initial* appearance, not the following Phase.
Yeah, and the only power in the book that allows anything to "appear" on
the other side of an opaque, solid wall is Teleportation; the Ranged
advantage will not cut it as it requires line of sight. Work with it a
bit.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
\
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear.
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 11 Jan 1998 11:40:58 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "Rat" == Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes:
Rat> Yeah, and the only power in the book that allows anything to "appear"
Rat> on the other side of an opaque, solid wall is Teleportation; the
Rat> Ranged advantage will not cut it as it requires line of sight. Work
Rat> with it a bit.
By the way, here is a hint:
You can activate as many powers during your action phase as you can afford
the Endurance cost, so long as you make only one attack.
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Reply-To: <dflacks@ican.net>
From: "dflacks" <dflacks@ican.net>
Subject: Fantasy Magic - Multiple Clerics
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:44:03 -0500
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Thanks to qts and E. David Miller for responding to my last question. I
still have some quesitons about multiple clerics though.
FAMILIARS
I now know what I am going to do with familiars. The familiar will have
it’s own magic skill roll and the GM (meaning me) will roll the skill.
That roll will act as a complementary skill roll, giving the wizard a
positive modifier if it is made. The modifier will be in effect so long as
the familiar is in physical contact with the wizard. If the familiar stays
in contact with the mage thru the course of several spells, the modifier
would apply to all of them. If the familiar breaks contact with the mage
the modifier instantly stops. When, and if, contract is resumed a new
skill roll will be made.
The problem with using an AID is that I only what the familiar’s bonus to
the wizard’s magic skill roll to apply when the wizard is in physical
contact with the familiar. The bonus should continue to apply so long as
he is in physical contact with the familiar. This continuous, abruptly
ending feature plays havoc with the fade rate portion of the AID power. To
avoid a confusing kludge I am not going to use the AID power. A Familiar
complementarily skill is easier for me to manage and price, after all the
player has to pay points for his or her character’s familiar.
Most familiars will be small. Since thier ability to boost magic skill
rolls is useful during combat, players may want them there. A small
familiar, like a cat, is small enough to fit inside a wizard’s defensive
mystic force field. After all if this force field can protect his
backpack, than it should be able to cover a small animal. However, a large
familiar, like a horse, would be outside a force field, (not a force wall
though,) As such it would be more vulnerable. If the familiar is to break
contact with the wizard it must move far enough to forfeit the wizard’s
force field protection. Mystic protection not withstanding, small animals
are easier to kill that heroes, so the wizard may want to send his familiar
away before the battle.
Familiars also have a mind link with their wizards, allowing them to act as
scouts, even if the wizard doesn’t know a use familiar’s senses clarisense
spell.
CONGREGATIONS
I like the idea of a +1 per every 2x the number of Devout Believers, as
well as taking the number of non-believers into account. What I will use
is a bonus or penalty based on the total number of devout believers and
non-believers. The total number of devout believer minus the number of
non-believers give the congregation number. This number results in a
modifier based on the +/- 1 per 2x formula. If the congregation number was
9 then the cleric would get + 4. (+1 at 1, 2, 4, 8) If the congregation
number was -9 the cleric would have a -4 modifier (-1 at 1, 2, 4, 8). A
member of the congregation is defined as someone who participates, or
pretends to participate in the ritual. IE. During the course of the spell
the congregation must respond with appropriate incantation words, like
amen, or supercalafagalistick expealadoshus.
This actual fits well with the cinematic version of fantasy. The heroes
infiltrate knock out some cultists, steal their robes, and infiltrate the
ceremony. When the cultists start chanting, the heroes mumble along. As
the high priest approaches the sacrifice (which always seems to be female,
attractive, and emotionally involved with the heroes, if not one of them
herself) he suddenly screams, “There are unbelievers amongst us” (He senses
the reduced worship skill modifier). The high priest then calls on his
deity to reveal the unbelievers (casting a detect non-believer ritual).
Scanning the crowd he quickly points at the heroes and yells ‘There are the
non-believers, get them!.
Actually, the above example also fits well with the way I am planning to
handle resurrection in my campaign. So that is an added bonus.
MULTIPLE CLERICS - Still not sure what to do.
I am still considering some kind of multiple complementary skill rolls, but
I do like QTS’s suggestion of an AID spell cast by the junior clerics.
This would seem to work well, except for a few questions. The AID would be
towards the focus cleric’s worship skill. Enabling him or her to cast a
more powerful spell successfully. Since the maximum active cost of a spell
in the focus cleric’s power pool is to be 3 times the worship skill,
increasing the skill will allow a higher active point spell than normal to
be used. Since the actual value of the power pool is not changed, the
higher active point spell will require more limitations to fit, such as
extra time, side effect, OAF bones of a saint, etc. The same AID could be
used when the focus cleric is trying to learn the ritual.
Questions and clarifications
1) The AID should be towards the worship skill for a particular spell only.
What kind of a limitation is that worth?
2) I do not what a bunch of clerics to be able to power up the focus cleric
then leave. That means the AID must have a fade rate high enough so that
it doesn’t lose all it’s bonus if the ritual has extra time, but it also
must only be available while the junior clerics are present. How do I
model this, after all the characters will have to learn and cast these
rituals.
3) If the spell has a side effect, then the junior clerics should be
effected by it as well. How do I model this?
4) Since increases in worship skill roll are +1 for 2 points, a little AID
can go a very long way. Four junior clerics each cast 4d6 AID spells. 4d6
have a statistical average of 14, so that would give our four juniors an
average of 56 points aid or +28 to the worship skill roll. The maximum
would be 96 poits or +48 to the worship skill roll. This example is with
just 4d6 AID. What if the junior clerics had 8d6 AID. That would be an
average of +56 with a max of +96. That's a lot of plusses. I am not sure
the really powerfull rituals should be that easy to cast, and +96 to
worship skill makes anything easy to cast.
OTHER THOUGHTS
Another thing I am considering is restricting healing magic only to
religious rituals. This would help distinguish between secular and
religious magic. I am not sure if I will do this. It’s probably just a
hold over from my many years of AD&D, and I am not sure if it is a good
idea for Fantasy Hero.
After I have resolved these issues it may be awhile before I ask another
question. I will be busy designing a reasonably sized list of magic
specializations, a grimoire of sample spells, the various churches and some
sample rituals. If that goes without a hitch <LOL> then the next topic I
am likely to run into trouble with is Package deals and Fantasy martial
arts.
Thanks again for the inspirations.
Daniel Flacks dflacks@ican.net
Give me ambiguity or give me something else
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:49:19 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> Let us assume that the most that a person could lift by a measurable
> amount, under ideal conditions, is 2.5 times the most _useful_ lift
> you could get. Since the best ever was 6,270 lbs, this amount divided
> by 2.5 gives a maximum lift of 2,508 lbs, or 1,140 kg. If this number
> is compared to the Champion's lifting range, we get a 28 STR. Some
> heroes, with GM permission, could be even stronger without being
> superhuman, particularly in the superhero genres. Captain America is a
> perfect example.
That's good! Basically an argument here to allow up to 30 for
"normal" humans in most stats. Something I can live with, personally.
The only Stat I'd have a problem with is BOD. It's tough to convince me
that any "normal" character will have more than _maybe_ 15.
> If this were done, then it gives less granularity at heroic levels. It
> would make a greater, more significant difference between average and
> very good. It would also bring most of the published characters back
> into a reasonable range.
Don't you mean _more_ granularity? And I like how it adds more
difference between "average" "good" and "excellent" but still allows for
"superhuman".
Benchmarks somewhere around these should be adopted for 5th
edition. Great job.
-Tim Gilberg
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 98 19:04:08
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Fantasy Magic - Multiple Clerics
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On Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:44:03 -0500, dflacks wrote:
>Thanks to qts and E. David Miller for responding to my last question. I
>still have some quesitons about multiple clerics though.
>
>FAMILIARS
>I now know what I am going to do with familiars. The familiar will have
>it s own magic skill roll and the GM (meaning me) will roll the skill.
>That roll will act as a complementary skill roll, giving the wizard a
>positive modifier if it is made. The modifier will be in effect so long as
>the familiar is in physical contact with the wizard. If the familiar stays
>in contact with the mage thru the course of several spells, the modifier
>would apply to all of them. If the familiar breaks contact with the mage
>the modifier instantly stops. When, and if, contract is resumed a new
>skill roll will be made.
This puts familiars in a tricky situation when the fireballs start
flying. I would suggest the AD&D method of being within a (short) range
or having plenty of BODY.
>The problem with using an AID is that I only what the familiar s bonus to
>the wizards magic skill roll to apply when the wizard is in physical
>contact with the familiar. The bonus should continue to apply so long as
>he is in physical contact with the familiar. This continuous, abruptly
>ending feature plays havoc with the fade rate portion of the AID power. To
>avoid a confusing kludge I am not going to use the AID power. A Familiar
>complementarily skill is easier for me to manage and price, after all the
>player has to pay points for his or her character s familiar.
Actually, all you need to do is purchase the Aid as below.
1d6 Aid, Affects All Magic (+2), Continuous (+1), 0 End (+1/2), IPE
(+1), Always On (-1/4), for a cost of 21 pts per 1d6. You could also
add Only to boost Master's Spells (-1/4), which would prevent the PC
'lending' his familiar to others. Note that this is purchased by the
familiar, not the mage (but does increase the cost of the familiar to
the mage).
>Most familiars will be small. Since their ability to boost magic skill
>rolls is useful during combat, players may want them there. A small
>familiar, like a cat, is small enough to fit inside a wizard s defensive
>mystic force field. After all if this force field can protect his
>backpack, than it should be able to cover a small animal. However, a large
>familiar, like a horse, would be outside a force field, (not a force wall
>though,) As such it would be more vulnerable. If the familiar is to break
>contact with the wizard it must move far enough to forfeit the wizard s
>force field protection. Mystic protection not withstanding, small animals
>are easier to kill that heroes, so the wizard may want to send his familiar
>away before the battle.
Yes. Beware of wizards whose familiars are Triceratops!
>Familiars also have a mind link with their wizards, allowing them to act as
>scouts, even if the wizard doesn t know a use familiar s senses clarisense
>spell.
Standard Mind Link?
>CONGREGATIONS
>I like the idea of a +1 per every 2x the number of Devout Believers, as
Wow! You're going to get hefty bonuses pretty quickly. I'd strongly
suggest the +1 per 5x version. A normal congregation (25) will give you
+2, the largest (a city, approx 5^5 will give +5). But this doesn't
work for the 'secret cult', so make the number variable, depending upon
the occasion and the deity.
Remember that in a polytheistic society, each individual believed in
many gods - it wasn't a case of 'I believe in X, not Y'. Even
full-fledged priests sought blessings from other deities. In essence
the priest is a priest of a *pantheon*, not a deity.
A Roman priestess of Athena might have the following skills
10 Pre 20
11 Worship Athena ((9+Pre/5)+4) 17-
9 Worship Juno 16-
9 Worship Artemis 16-
7 Worship Jupiter 15-
1 Fam/w Worship other Roman Deity 8-
Now, when she calls upon Athena (eg skill in battle) for something her
Magic Skill is 'Worship Athena'; when she calls upon Juno (eg for safe
delivery of a child), her Magic Skill is 'Worship Juno'.
This mechanism allows you to roleplay the conflict between the gods -
eg Jupiter and Juno did *not* get on, so Juno might be more difficult
to call on if the priestess has paid more attention to Jupiter
recently. Conversely, she might get a bonus so that Juno scores a point
over Jupiter, 'You wouldn't help a faithful priestess? Tsk, tsk. Just
as well I took care of it.' Also, a deity is less likely to answer a
follower who's not followed their precepts - eg Artemis, a virgin
goddess, would have scant time for a follower who'd just come from a
Dionysian orgy.
>well as taking the number of non-believers into account. What I will use
>is a bonus or penalty based on the total number of devout believers and
>non-believers. The total number of devout believer minus the number of
>non-believers give the congregation number. This number results in a
>modifier based on the +/- 1 per 2x formula. If the congregation number was
>9 then the cleric would get + 4. (+1 at 1, 2, 4, 8) If the congregation
>number was -9 the cleric would have a -4 modifier (-1 at 1, 2, 4, 8). A
>member of the congregation is defined as someone who participates, or
>pretends to participate in the ritual. IE. During the course of the spell
>the congregation must respond with appropriate incantation words, like
>amen, or supercalafagalistick expealadoshus.
Try 'Open Sesame' :}
>This actual fits well with the cinematic version of fantasy. The heroes
>infiltrate knock out some cultists, steal their robes, and infiltrate the
>ceremony. When the cultists start chanting, the heroes mumble along. As
>the high priest approaches the sacrifice (which always seems to be female,
>attractive, and emotionally involved with the heroes, if not one of them
>herself) he suddenly screams, There are unbelievers amongst us (He senses
>the reduced worship skill modifier). The high priest then calls on his
>deity to reveal the unbelievers (casting a detect non-believer ritual).
>Scanning the crowd he quickly points at the heroes and yells There are the
>non-believers, get them!.
Sounds good.
>Actually, the above example also fits well with the way I am planning to
>handle resurrection in my campaign. So that is an added bonus.
Do tell!
>MULTIPLE CLERICS - Still not sure what to do.
>I am still considering some kind of multiple complementary skill rolls, but
>I do like QTS s suggestion of an AID spell cast by the junior clerics.
>This would seem to work well, except for a few questions. The AID would be
>towards the focus cleric s worship skill.
I was thinking of the Aiding the Spell, not the Skill.
>Enabling him or her to cast a
>more powerful spell successfully. Since the maximum active cost of a spell
>in the focus cleric s power pool is to be 3 times the worship skill,
>increasing the skill will allow a higher active point spell than normal to
>be used.
Only if you're Aiding the Pool as well.
> Since the actual value of the power pool is not changed, the
>higher active point spell will require more limitations to fit, such as
>extra time, side effect, OAF bones of a saint, etc. The same AID could be
>used when the focus cleric is trying to learn the ritual.
The problem here is that you're allowing the priest to cast a spell
more easily (increasing the Skill Roll), not allowing the priest to
cast a more powerful spell (increasing the Active Points). It is the
Active Points of the Spell that must fit in the Pool, not the Real
Points.
>Questions and clarifications
>1) The AID should be towards the worship skill for a particular spell only.
> What kind of a limitation is that worth?
If you're Aiding the high priest's Worship skill, then you have no
Limitation (and no Advantage), but that's ridiculously cheap. A 15 AP
(2d6 Aid Ranged) spell will increase the Skill Roll by 3 pts. But see
below.
>2) I do not what a bunch of clerics to be able to power up the focus cleric
>then leave. That means the AID must have a fade rate high enough so that
>it doesn t lose all it s bonus if the ritual has extra time, but it also
>must only be available while the junior clerics are present. How do I
>model this, after all the characters will have to learn and cast these
>rituals.
Make it Continuous (+1) and Continuous Incantations (-1/2), with a
normal fade rate, so that it stays while the juniors are there, but
dissipates rapidly when they stop chanting.
>3) If the spell has a side effect, then the junior clerics should be
>effected by it as well. How do I model this?
Area Effect Feedback!
>4) Since increases in worship skill roll are +1 for 2 points, a little AID
>can go a very long way. Four junior clerics each cast 4d6 AID spells. 4d6
>have a statistical average of 14, so that would give our four juniors an
>average of 56 points aid or +28 to the worship skill roll. The maximum
>would be 96 poits or +48 to the worship skill roll. This example is with
>just 4d6 AID. What if the junior clerics had 8d6 AID. That would be an
>average of +56 with a max of +96. That's a lot of plusses. I am not sure
>the really powerfull rituals should be that easy to cast, and +96 to
>worship skill makes anything easy to cast.
Not quite: there's the Maximum Aid. If the juniors are casting a bare
4d6 Aid, then the maximum they can Aid is 24 AP. This is still +12 to
the skill roll.
But given that you're already giving a bonus to the skill roll for the
number present, I think you may have the Skill Roll and Active points
mixed up. As noted above, you're making the spell easier to cast, not
more powerful. To make the spell more powerful, you need an Aid All
Magic based upon below for each participant:
1d6 Aid, +5 limit (10 base), All Magic (+2), Constant (+1), Ranged
(+1/2) (45 Active), Concentrate 1/2 DCV throughout (-1/2), Incantations
throughout (-1/2), OAF Unholy Symbol (-1), Only in Temple (-1), Only to
Aid another Priest (-1/2), RSR (-1/2) = 9 Real.
Here the more priests there are, the more quickly the high priest will
be boosted, but
Alternatively the temple can buy something like
1d6 Transfer End to High Priest's Magic Effect, +35 to limit (50 Base),
Constant (+1), All Magic Effect (+2), AOE: Temple (+1), 0 End (+1/2)
(275 Active) OASF Blood Drenched Altar (-2), Only willing participants
(-1/2), Independent (-2), Only from participants chanting correct
responses throughout (-1/2), Only with Deity's Permission (-1/2),
Concentrate 0 DCV to cast(-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4),
Only When Virgin Sacrifice Made/Only When 'The Stars are Right' (-1)
yadda yadda
This boosts the celebrant's VPP by 50 less the control cost.
I've chosen End as the stat transferred to represent celebrants
becoming unconscious from religious ecstacy when they start burning
Stun as End
>OTHER THOUGHTS
>Another thing I am considering is restricting healing magic only to
>religious rituals. This would help distinguish between secular and
>religious magic. I am not sure if I will do this. It s probably just a
>hold over from my many years of AD&D, and I am not sure if it is a good
>idea for Fantasy Hero.
:}
Do let us know how you get on.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 11 Jan 98 11:32:00 -0800
Subject: Re: Characteristics Too
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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b >
b > I don't object to higher than maximum, but I do object to *a lot*
b > higher
b > than maximum unless there's a logical cause for it. In my campaigns,
b > a
b > character with NCM may spend *no more* than 40 points total (after the
b > cost
b > doubling) in Characteristics above the max.
b > ---
b > Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
b > ---
I can see that... by then they've 'bought off' the Disad anyway
(spent an extra 20pts on characteristics...)
___
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 11 Jan 98 11:42:02 -0800
Subject: Champions Survey
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
b > Please reply directly to me (without CC:ing to the list, unless
b > your software won't have it any other way) the following statistics for
b >
It's worse than that - I'm going to have to post it to the list,
forward to you, and then try to kill it before it goes out.... my
appologies if this makes it onto hero-l.
b > Average Damage Class of a beginning character's main attack:
12
b > Average Damage Class of "desperation" attacks (such as a Haymaker,
b > or any heavily-Limited Power):
14
b > Average beginning total PD/ED:
25
b > Average beginning DEX:
20
b > Average beginning SPD:
4
b > Average beginning EGO:
15
b > Average number of beginning Skills:
10
b > Starting base points:
100
b > Average beginning Disadvantage total:
150
b > Average Damage Class of an NPC agent's main attack:
(I assume by "agent" you mean a normal trained & equiped to
fight supers...)
9
b > Average NPC agent total PD/ED:
8
b > Average NPC agent DEX:
14
b > Average NPC agent SPD:
3
b > Average NPC agent base points:
50
b > Average NPC agent Disadvantage total:
50
b > I'll return the results to the list, and forward them to Steven
b > Long in
b > case he's interested.
b > ---
b > Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
b > http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
b > Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
b > http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
b >
b >
b >
b > ---
b > * Origin: Red October Gateway (1:143/241.0)
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 11 Jan 98 11:51:04 -0800
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long)
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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F > From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com>
F >
F > Though I *hate* the idea of increase STR costs, I can't agree. 12d
F > of Normal damage is 12 DCs. 8d of AP normal damage is 12 DC... and
F > if you ask me 8d of 0 END normal damge is 8DCs.. if it doesn't matter
F > to they guy you're hitting, an advantage (or higher or lower cost)
F > doesn't mean much in terms of DCs either... thus a 20d HA is darn-
F > well 20 DCs! >>
F >
F > The point here is that if Str were to increase twofold, one die of Str
F > damage
F > would cost 10 points. Str would now be on the same point cost level
F > as
F > Drain, 10/die. And you certainly wouldn't allow 12d6 of Drain. The
....
F > Yes, there are exceptions to how DC is calculated. The exceptions
F > like 0 End *are* listed as exceptions under Damage Class... but the ex
F > are for *Advantages* only. Otherwise, DC is determined by AP/5. So 20
I'm certain that is the 5th Ed were so foolish as to double STR cost -
which I'm confident from the comments about it won't be the case - they'd
have the forsight to add STR to that list of exception on calculating
DCs.
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 11 Jan 98 11:59:06 -0800
Subject: Character Problems
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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c > From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@sprynet.com>
c > Not to interupt the really facinating 3 Spd brick lines... ;>) but, I
c > was wondering if y'all could help me with this nagigng little problem
c > mine. I'm trying to make a hi-tech hero who has an AI in his battle
c > suit (a la Booster Gold), would it be a follower? It is (at this time
c > anyway)
Computers, including AIs are bought as followers. There are no rules
as to how big an AI must be, or whether it can move around, so I assume
you'd just define it as being in the suit - obviously, no OIF limitation
on the follower.
c > limited to his battle suit. It also can only control Life Support &
c > Force Field. I don't want any "Yeah I'm unconscious but the suit if
c > fighting by it self...." hassles yet.
c >
I was going to say make the LS & FF 'useable by others' so the AI
could activate it for you, but that's not quite right.... a small
advantage, simillar to Triggered for 'can be controlled by AI'
should be OK.
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 11 Jan 98 12:27:08 -0800
Subject: Re: Tying up the strengt
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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t > On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, Stephen McGinness wrote:
t >
t > > I think the points saved by martial artists having STR 20 instead of
t > a more
t > > realistic 14 or 15 are not an issue,
t >
t > I can't imagine how it could fail to be an issue.
t >
Because you're talking about a character shaving a point or picking
up an extra DC.... for 150pt or 250pt character it's just not that
significant. Unless you find saving points morally reprehensible -
in which case you have to completely re-work the rules because there
are *so many* ways of doing it - or are stickler for realism (and
as long as Hero wants to simulate heroic & superheroic genres, it's
going to be a little light on realism).
t > > >Because skill levels are effectively just characteristics with a
t > > >limitation "only for certain skills". A bonus to DEX-based skills,
t > > >example, isn't something you get _along with_ DEX; it _is_ DEX.
t > >
Hardly, the points don't work out for one thing.... How do you get
DEX, no figured characteristics, only to increase DCV to equal out to
a 5pt DCV level?
t > > But it is also a bonus that comes along naturally because you are
t > dextrous.
t >
t > No, it isn't. It's the game mechanical representation of being
t > dextrous.
t > If being better at skills requiring co-ordination (including combat)
t > a bonus you get along with becoming more dextrous, then what does
t > being dextrous in and of itself mean?
The only thing that DEX does, that isn't represented by another
mechanic is the affect on combat order (lighting reflexes or whatever
are explicitly limmitted DEX) everything else is covered by levels...
So comparing the cost of what DEX gives you to the cost of DEX
is just as valid as comparing the cost of what STR gives you
to that of STR.
Which is to say that's it's not valid at all.
Cost breaks are inherent in the Hero System, and they balance
out just fine. The only drawback is that it is easy for a new
player to inadvertently 'waste points' until they become
more familliar with the rules.
That's exactly the problem the Fuzion addressed. Hero 5th
(or 6th, or whatever) doesn't need to go through those same
motions and make itself Fuzion with all the points multiplied
by 5. Hero & Fuzion are already going to be competing with
eachother, no need to make them more simillar (in fact, I think
every effort should be made to keep Fuzion simple, and Hero
detailed, so that they are as differentiated as possible).
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 11 Jan 98 12:44:10 -0800
Subject: Re: STR: Underpriced?
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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To: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
c > >
c > > I agree... I think the characters that end up being able to get
c > > 'free strength' when thier STR just shouldn't be that high, have
c > > probably taken thier figured stats up too high... I mean, if your
c > > thief isn't meant to be all that strong, why can he jump of a
c > > castle wall without breaking something (high PD: ~5)?
c >
c > Well, at first pass I'll mention that making this character was my
c > introduction to Champions. It was difficult to grasp at first what all
.....
c > Assuming those are the values I wanted (they've become a part of my
c > character through years of play), I find it a little--frustrating, in
c > retrospect, that as some have put it "I paid points for a low STR."
c > Furthermore, I could have saved lives last session, including one of
.....
c > I probably shouldn't, but I feel like I built a "bad" character, and
c > someone else had to pay the price.
c > ---
Your story is typical... when I first designed a brick character I gave
him a 40 STR and relatively low CON, and very high STN & REC... then I
realized how much END he'd use in combat, and bought up his END...
horribly inefficient.
And that's what you created , a somewhat inefficient character. It's one
of the pitfalls of being new to Hero. I can see how you've become attached
to the character's odd stats, though. I'm very fond of a 22 DEX character
of mine... :)
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From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:31:49 EST
Subject: Re: STR Cost (Re: Announ
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
In a message dated 98-01-09 17:28:06 EST, tbarrie@ibm.net writes:
> On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Captain Spith wrote:
>
> > Hey! here's where we can help 'balance' STR! Simply require that
> > STR pay 1/5 END instead of 1/10! This will create a limitation to pay
> > for all of STRs 'freebie' points, and will effectively raise STR's basic
> > cost by 25% to make it equal in END cost to other powers! No, really,
> > this is GENIUS!
>
> Hmm. So, under the current system, if I take an extra 10 STR, it reduces
> my characteristic cost by 1, and if I need to use that extra STR it'll
> cost me 1 END. With this change, if I take an extra 10 STR, it reduces my
> characteristic cost by 1, and if I need to use that extra STR it'll cost
> me 2 END.
>
> To be honest, I don't see how that fixes much of anything.
I don't either, which is why in my own house rules I ended up grossly
expanding what counts as "using" STR:
***begin house rules exerpt***
3. END Costs for Strength (and Superleaping, Swimming and Running)
Using Strength costs 1 END per 5 pts of STR, just like in Heroic-level games.
Reduced END Cost for STR costs double, much as it does for Autofire attacks:
Reducing the END Cost to 1 END per 10 STR is a +1/2 Advantage, and reducing it
to Zero END is a +1 Advantage.
Characters are considered to be "using" their STR whenever they are in
physical combat - tensed up and ready to fight if not actually dodging attacks
- and not just when they make STR based attacks. Characters at full DCV are
considered to be using their full STR, and characters at 1/2 DCV are
considered to be using at least half their STR.
Leaping characters pay the END costs for the STR used when leaping, but do
not pay any extra END for any extra inches of Superleaping they use.
Running and Swimming also count as "using" STR: The END costs of these powers
are based on the character's STR scores (at 1 END per 5 STR) rather than on
the points in Running or Swimming. Characters using less than their full
movement spend proportionally less END unless they are also using their STR
for other things. Characters can buy Reduced END on their Running and Swimming
at the normal cost. This will reduce the END costs of Running or Swimming, but
not of other uses of STR. Buying Reduced END on STR itself will also reduce
the END costs of Running and Swimming.
***end house rules exerpt***
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 13:46:57 -0800
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On Saturday, January 10, 1998 2:48 PM, Steven J. Owens wrote:
<snip>
>
> Well, if you want to build up your ability to withstand blunt
>impact, try taking up boxing :-). I'm more than half serious. A lot
>of the "knockout" effect from blunt impact is shock - and one of the
>best ways to get used to being hit a lot is to go out and get hit a
>lot.
True. I had considered this. However, bag work is actually a good
strength workout, so you'd still build up STR. Similarly, when solidly
hit on the corner of the jaw, the thing that prevents a knockout is
your neck muscles.
> For fatigue training, try taking up wrestling. In scientific
>studies (I'll have to bug my brother to find out exactly which) they
>compared the endurance of numerous professional atheletes. Marathon
>runners were the highest, but second highest were wrestlers.
>
It works similarly with judo matwork. In ordinary competition,
throwing an opponent to the ground can win the match. With matwork,
you continue until one of you cannot move.
Another thing that cannot be properly simulated in Champions. No
matter how good my hold, you still get a roll every phase. Assuming
anything like a fair competition, you will escape within well under a
minute, most of the time. OTOH, some judo holds, once successfully
executed, are all but inescapable.
Filksinger
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [5th ed] Wishlist pa
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:00:38 -0800
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On Saturday, January 10, 1998 9:03 PM, Rick Holding wrote:
>Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote:
><<Snipped>>
>> Something that I have seen done (albeit only with body) is to
have the
>> stats of the actual baseline normal NPC be a couple points
below 10.
>> Thus, every Shmoe off the street is defined as having a 5 or
an 8
>> BODY, rather than a 10. Maybe this should be expanded to cover
all of
>> the characteristics. This might have two advantages: I
remember way back in the good old days, a normal human had all stats
>of 8. Heroes or trained normals had base stats of 10, a case of
"being better
>than normal". This got dropped in the 4th edition so that normal
humans had
>base 10 stats.
>
That was one thing they said. Another rulebook said that the average
normal was an 8 for all base stats, but that the average _adult_
between the ages of 17 and 50 was a 10.
Filksinger
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear.
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:22:39 -0800
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On Sunday, January 11, 1998 7:01 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 09:18 PM 1/10/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>>
>>>> "Teleportation" is the power you are looking for.
>>
>>BG> Teleportation, Usable Against Others, Indirect,
Transdimensional,
>>BG> Self Only?
>>
>>No, the duplicate has Teleportation. For himself. Nothing wrong
with
>>that.
>
> I think the original intent was to have the Duplicate's pop in at
range
>on his *initial* appearance, not the following Phase.
Exactly. Duplication linked to Teleportation. When Duplication is
fired, the character also Teleports. SFX, the Duplicate arrives
elsewhere.
Filksinger
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear.
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:27:06 -0800
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On Sunday, January 11, 1998 7:27 AM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>
>BG> I think the original intent was to have the Duplicate's pop in
at
>BG> range on his *initial* appearance, not the following Phase.
>
>Yeah, and the only power in the book that allows anything to "appear"
on
>the other side of an opaque, solid wall is Teleportation; the Ranged
>advantage will not cut it as it requires line of sight. Work with it
a
>bit.
>
The original poster specified that the other room had to be in line of
sight. Pay attention.:)
Filksinger
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Characteristics Too High
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:30:55 -0800
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On Sunday, January 11, 1998 8:32 AM, John Desmarais wrote:
>On Sat, 10 Jan 1998 22:25:21 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>
>>On Friday, January 09, 1998 9:56 PM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>
>>
<snip>
>>>
>>> Question: Is this 800 lbs a bench press, or a dead lift? The
>>things I
>>>know about weightlifting could be counted on one's fingers, but one
>>of them
>>>happens to be that what one can bench press is typically about half
>>what
>>>one can dead lift. If that 800 pound max is a bench press, then
>>Cap's STR
>>>would come to about 25, which is what I'd give him from observation
>>and such.
>>
>>
>>It isn't a benchpress, its an old lift that was used in the days
>>before clean and jerk and snatch. The press, as best as I can tell,
>>was simply getting it from the ground to your head.
>
>I've always viewed the weight you can lift based on STR to be a dead
lift (lift from
>ground to thigh level) - based on it being the maximum you could lift
(and I can dead lift
>weight that I haven't a chance of getting over my head).
>
The lifts in Hero are generally assumed to be dead lifts. However, the
press used by Marvel comics to describe Cap's strength is not, it is
an over the head lift.
Filksinger
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:43:27 -0800
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On Sunday, January 11, 1998 8:48 AM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> Let us assume that the most that a person could lift by a
measurable
>> amount, under ideal conditions, is 2.5 times the most _useful_ lift
>> you could get. Since the best ever was 6,270 lbs, this amount
divided
>> by 2.5 gives a maximum lift of 2,508 lbs, or 1,140 kg. If this
number
>> is compared to the Champion's lifting range, we get a 28 STR. Some
>> heroes, with GM permission, could be even stronger without being
>> superhuman, particularly in the superhero genres. Captain America
is a
>> perfect example.
>
> That's good! Basically an argument here to allow up to 30 for
>"normal" humans in most stats. Something I can live with,
personally.
>The only Stat I'd have a problem with is BOD. It's tough to convince
me
>that any "normal" character will have more than _maybe_ 15.
>
That's my biggest problem with this, too. However, virtually no one
buys NCM for BODY. It would be a theoretical problem rather than a
real one.
>> If this were done, then it gives less granularity at heroic levels.
It
>> would make a greater, more significant difference between average
and
>> very good. It would also bring most of the published characters
back
>> into a reasonable range.
>
>
> Don't you mean _more_ granularity?
Nope.
Granularity is a term from geology that went into photography, and
went on from there. If something is "grainy", it is course. The finer
the divisions of something, the less grainy it is, and thus the less
granularity you have.
Therefore, the more divisions you can put into a given span or area,
such as the surface of a rock, the picture on a photograph, or the
span of human capability, the less granular it is.
>And I like how it adds more
>difference between "average" "good" and "excellent" but still allows
for
>"superhuman".
>
> Benchmarks somewhere around these should be adopted for 5th
>edition. Great job.
>
>
Thank you.
Bet you someone will hate it.:)
Filksinger
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:52:19 -0800
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On Sunday, January 11, 1998 8:48 AM, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Filksinger wrote:
>
>> By this argument, no Figured Characteristics are valid. Are you
>> arguing that STR is overpriced, or that Figured Characteristics
>> shouldn't exist?
>
>I take it you haven't been reading the entire thread. (Which probably
>makes you a tad more sensible than those of us who have...) I've
mentioned
>a couple of times that I'd like to see Figured Characteristics get
the
>axe; not only is it a good idea in its own right, but it's the
cleanest
>way of handling the STR/CON problem and it just generally makes it
easier
>to gauge the real cost of the Primary Characteristics.
>
My name is Filksinger, and I've read the entire thread. (SOB!) <Hi,
Filksinger!> :)
I just can't keep it straight, sometimes, who is in favor of what.
That said, I think that eliminating the figured part of Figured
Characteristics might be a good idea, but I don't want to see the
whole system retconned this way.
Filksinger
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: Character Problems
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 17:07:25 -0600
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From: Opal <Opal@october.com>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 4:10 PM
Subject: Character Problems
> c > From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@sprynet.com>
> c > Not to interupt the really facinating 3 Spd brick lines... ;>) but, I
> c > was wondering if y'all could help me with this nagigng little problem
> c > mine. I'm trying to make a hi-tech hero who has an AI in his battle
> c > suit (a la Booster Gold), would it be a follower? It is (at this time
> c > anyway)
>
>Computers, including AIs are bought as followers. There are no rules
>as to how big an AI must be, or whether it can move around, so I assume
>you'd just define it as being in the suit - obviously, no OIF limitation
>on the follower.
>
> c > limited to his battle suit. It also can only control Life Support &
> c > Force Field. I don't want any "Yeah I'm unconscious but the suit if
> c > fighting by it self...." hassles yet.
> c >
>
>I was going to say make the LS & FF 'useable by others' so the AI
>could activate it for you, but that's not quite right.... a small
>advantage, simillar to Triggered for 'can be controlled by AI'
>should be OK.
To achieve this effect fully it will be necessary to give the AI not only
its own defenses, LS & FF, but the same or similar amount "Usable Against
Others." So that the AI will be in control of the power. In my campaign we
allow beneficial powers to used "against" others with the useable "by"
others advantage. To do this with UAO is quite expensive but since
followers are so cheap it is very reasonable and can even be *too* cheap.
Another question this brings to my mind is that I though all followers were
assumed to be human-sized unless Growth or Shrinking were bought.
Alan
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 15:18:13 -0800
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On Sunday, January 11, 1998 8:48 AM, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Filksinger wrote:
>
>> >> Ah. Well, if that type of trouble is the only one that causes
you
>> >> problems, then I would have to cut it down to all Frameworks and
>> >> CON.
>
>[...]
>
>> I did _not_ say Frameworks when I meant Elemental Control. I said
"all
>> Frameworks", so obviously I was admitting there was more than one.
>> Multipower can easily be a far greater point crock than EC, and VPP
>> can be even worse.
>
>Can you get into situations with Multipower and VPP where reducing
the
>level of an ability results in a higher cost? (Or vice-versa) I
haven't
>been able to find any.
No, but I can find places where you save more with multipower than you
do with EC, enough more to make up the lack of utility (if any, as the
GLD is not settled) and still save more points than an EC.
>> >My point was that Champions specifies a certain amount of point
break
>> >for the drawback of not being able to use Powers simultaneously.
>> >Inventing your own mechanic to do this, assigning a cost to it
which
>> >is sometimes higher than the cost of Multipower, and using this to
>> >attempt to show that Multipower is underpriced is a pretty feeble
>> >argument IMO.
>>
>> I'm afraid I don't understand. I gave the Limitation the
ridiculously
>> high figure of -1.
>
>That's not ridiculously high, it's ridiculously low.
Assume that there were no "Multipower", or any other frameworks. Now,
a player comes to you and says, "I have 8 attack powers. I want to
limit them so that they cannot be fired at the same time. I think this
is worth a -1 Limitation." Would you agree?
I wouldn't. A -1/4 or maybe a -1/2, but definitely not a -1.
>> You point out that it is closer to -9, yet you are arguing that
this is
>> _not_ a point crock?
>
>Correct. Do you have an argument for _why_ the "+0.1 Advantage on one
>Power, -9 Limitation on the rest" set-up is under-costed? It seems
fine to
>me: if you want a character who can only have 60 pts worth of Power
active
>at a given time, it's going to cost you 60 pts plus some change, with
the
>amount of change proportional to the amount of versatility you have.
>Perfectly reasonable.
If I buy a Multipower with three ultra slots, I get a "Limitation"
value on the powers of .6, greater than one half. If I buy a
Multipower with six ultra slots, I get a value of 3.8. I'd give that
Limitation a value of .5, at best.
As I have rarely had a player who wanted to do multiple attacks in the
same phase, and never had a character ask to have them separate rather
than in a Multipower so that they could do so, I have to assume that
a) it isn't worth much of a Limitation, and b) my players think that
it is more useful to have a Multipower than to be able to fire two
attacks at the same time.
The only reason why Multipowers balance is that you can compare them
to EC. Without EC, multipowers, even with their reduced utility, are
even _more_ attractive.
If EC is such a point crock, why is Multipower so much more popular?
Most players I've talked to think a Multipower is superior, because it
saves so many more points.
You may not like the way that EC saves points, but it doesn't seem to
be broken, based on the points saved.
>> I don't understand this at all. The BBB gives STR a value of 1 STR
per
>> 5 pts.,
>
>Assuming you mean 1 per 1.
>
>> and you say that STR costs too little. I point out that Multipower
>> saves way to much, and you argue that I am wrong because the BBB
says
>> so?
>
>It's the nature of the argument that's different. If I said, "Look,
here's
>a new stat called 'FORCE': costs 10x, allows a character to lift
2^(FRC/5)
>* 25 kg and do (FRC/5)d6 in hand-to-hand... hey STR is a lot cheaper
than
>that; STR must be broken", I don't imagine many people would listen.
>Similarly, inventing a new Limitation to duplicate Multipowers,
giving it
>a cost higher than Multipower, and using this to attempt to show that
>Multipowers are under-priced doesn't strike me as much of an
argument.
I wasn't trying to show that a new Limitation didn't save as much as a
Multipower. I was trying to show that a (to me) ridiculously high
value for such a limitation still didn't equal Multipower-- that
Multipower saved more points than the limits on it were worth.
Both EC and Multipower save more points than the limitations they
incur are worth. EC saves some points for no limitation, Multipower
saves much more for a minor limitation.
If this very small limitation is sufficient to balance multipower,
then I can only assume that your argument against EC is that it gives
_no_ limitation. Fine. Then we add the house rule concerning
Adjustment powers and EC, and then it has a very small limitation and
considerable point break. Multipower has a somewhat larger limitation
and a much bigger point break.
Am I correct in assuming that this would satisfy your objections, or
am I missing something?
Filksinger
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From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 18:38:12 EST
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long)
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In a message dated 98-01-11 11:10:02 EST, you write:
> F> I've seen the MA DC costing 4, but where does it say that each 3pt HA
> F> equals one DC?
>
> Look at the Damage Class table, the row that says "1DC" = 1 pip of killing
> damage or 1d6 normal damage. HA costs 3 points per 1d6 of normal damage.
> 1d6 of normal damage is 1DC. Therefore HA costs 3 points per 1DC. QED.
Since HA is basically Str with a Limitation, I can buy this because it would
mean that the AP/5 is still being satisfied.
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From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 19:03:33 EST
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms
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In a message dated 98-01-11 12:43:37 EST, you write:
> You know, every time the STR problem comes up, somebody (usually 2 or 3
> somebodies) comes out with the observation that players shouldn't take
> STR's higher than their concept mandates. So, I'm going to ask, as
> politely as I can, for somebody to explain how this relates even _vaguely_
> to the issue at hand. Pretty please?
Certainly, since you asked nicely. There are many things in Champions (since
I've played less than five games of FH, Champions is my reference point) that
give players more bang for their buck. Frameworks (yes, more than just ECs)
some Primary Characteristics, and Limitations are the big ones, and they are
the nature of the beast. What it seems to me is that you're targeting Str as
being unique. What I was trying to show was that there are *many* places
where Power Gamers, Minmaxers, etc can take advantage of the way the points
sometimes fall in their favor. It's been said before, but I'll say it again,
I believe the cost of Str is the way it is to make Bricks able to build
compatible characters compared with the other character types. But in order
to do so, it leaves room open for *other* characters to make use of the
Brick's 'framework'. That's why the GM's role is important.
>
> > That said, then if the GM *is* doing his/her job and keeps Str from
> > being abused, there really shouldn't be a problem.
>
> HOW? How does the GM only allowing some players access to the crock in any
> way deal with the basic problem that STR _shouldn't_ be a Disadvantage?
The same way the GM doesn't allow what some people perceive as a crock
(Frameworks) from being abused.
> > I have a question for you now... Have you really seen it to be true
> > that Bricks (PC Bricks, who are built for concept) are *really* more
> > powerful in head to head combat with other character types?
>
> They are, of course, but I don't see the point in discussing it. When
> mathematical evidence is available, anecdotal evidence is weak to the
> point of being completely irrelevant.
>
Your opinion, and you're welcome to it, but it doesn't make fact. (neither
does mine) I would have really prefered your experience of 'real world
examples' over number crunching, since, after all, that's where it matters the
most.
Take care,
'Lynx
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Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:04:43 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Characteristics Too
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At 11:32 AM 1/11/98 -0800, Opal wrote:
> b >
> b > I don't object to higher than maximum, but I do object to *a lot*
> b > higher
> b > than maximum unless there's a logical cause for it. In my campaigns,
> b > a
> b > character with NCM may spend *no more* than 40 points total (after the
> b > cost
> b > doubling) in Characteristics above the max.
> b > ---
> b > Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
> b > ---
>
>I can see that... by then they've 'bought off' the Disad anyway
>(spent an extra 20pts on characteristics...)
Precisely. I give a few other limitations as well, such as being
subject to heroic-level Pushing rules and not being allowed superhuman
Powers without a Focus (with things like "non-powered Powers" and special
martial arts abilities as an exception, but only if well justified within
the character concept).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
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Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:06:41 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear.
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At 11:21 AM 1/11/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>
>BG> I think the original intent was to have the Duplicate's pop in at
>BG> range on his *initial* appearance, not the following Phase.
>
>Yeah, and the only power in the book that allows anything to "appear" on
>the other side of an opaque, solid wall is Teleportation; the Ranged
>advantage will not cut it as it requires line of sight. Work with it a
>bit.
Well, I'd have to check to be 100% sure, but I think what was originally
said was that the Duplicate could pop in behind another target, not behind
a wall.
Even so, Indirect (plus Range) could bring the Duplicate in behind the
wall.
---
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Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:11:26 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear.
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At 09:22 AM 1/11/98 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote:
>On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> >> Teleportation, Usable Against Others, Indirect, Transdimensional,
Self
>> >> Only?
>[...]
>> To word it more precisely: UAO, Only vs Alternate Selves in Other
>> Universes and/or Timelines.
>
>To which I suppose the only real response is "HUH???". What on Earth are
>all those Modifiers supposed to do, and why do you find them preferable to
>simple Teleport, only when first appears?
The original question, IIRC, was how to make the Duplicate initially
appear behind another target. Giving the Teleportation to the Duplicate
would enable the Duplicate to go behind the target *after* first appearing
next to the original character. The only way to allow the Duplicate to
*initially* appear at range is to either buy Range on Duplication, or give
the heavily-modified Teleportation (which is, at best, a kludge that would
arguably be better applied to XDM) to the original character in addition to
the Duplication.
>> >> No thank you. Duplication at Range is much simpler and more direct.
>> >
>> >Does it make more sense for the cost of this ability to be related to the
>> >point cost of the duplicate, or the distance at which the character can do
>> >it? IMO it's definitely the latter.
>>
>> Seems to me, about equally strongly, the former.
>
>Do you feel, then, that every character with Teleport should have to pay a
>cost proportional to their total point cost? If not, how is this case any
>different?
Uh... I honestly don't see whatever connection you're making between the
cost of Duplication and that of Teleportation.
---
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Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:13:59 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Champions Survey
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> On page S22 of Champions Fourth Edition, the results of a survey of
> Champions players and GMs are printed, giving the stats of the average
> Champions character.
> As an experiment, with the Fifth Edition of the Hero System coming
> around, I'd like to try a similar survey for the list.
> Please reply directly to me (without CC:ing to the list, unless your
> software won't have it any other way) the following statistics for your
> campaign. The first section is for beginning superhero characters, PC and
> NPC alike; the second is for agent-level NPCs in a superhero world.
> I'll cover heroic-level campaigns a bit later.
>
> Average Damage Class of a beginning character's main attack: 12 max for 250 points, 12 average for our 300 point immortals
> Average Damage Class of "desperation" attacks (such as a Haymaker, or
> any heavily-Limited Power): no real difference from above
> Average beginning total PD/ED: ranges from 10 to 20 for most, no more than 30
> Average beginning DEX: 15
> Average beginning SPD: 3-4, very few have 5. (I made my first 6 spd 3 months ago after 15
years)
> Average beginning EGO: 12-13
> Average number of beginning Skills: ranges between 20 to 40 points worth not counting combat skills
> Starting base points: 250
> Average beginning Disadvantage total: 150
> Average Damage Class of an NPC agent's main attack: 8 to 10
> Average NPC agent total PD/ED: 10 to 12
> Average NPC agent DEX: 14
> Average NPC agent SPD: 3
> Average NPC agent base points: 75 or 100
> Average NPC agent Disadvantage total: generally don't bother
--
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Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:28:34 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Out of order messages
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-- Filksinger wrote:
>
> Is anyone else receiving messages that are replies to messages they
> don't get until later? I have recently received a spate of messages
> that are arriving out of order.
>
> Filksinger Its to do with the different time zones and date-time groups
applied to your packets. Nothing you can do about it unless everybody
uses GMT.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:32:43 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [5th ed] Wishlist pa
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Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote:
<<Snipped>>
> Something that I have seen done (albeit only with body) is to have the
> stats of the actual baseline normal NPC be a couple points below 10.
> Thus, every Shmoe off the street is defined as having a 5 or an 8
> BODY, rather than a 10. Maybe this should be expanded to cover all of
> the characteristics. This might have two advantages: I remember way back in the good old days, a normal human had all stats
of 8. Heroes or trained normals had base stats of 10, a case of "being better
than normal". This got dropped in the 4th edition so that normal humans had
base 10 stats.
--
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Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
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Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:39:07 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long)
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
<<Snipped>> <<But nothing wrong with what you said>>
> q> It's CON that's more important here, to prevent you being stunned as
> q> (opposed to being unconcious). The high Stun numbers which crop up mean
> q> thatif you're going to go under, then go under you will.
>
> Stunned means your CV is pathetic... but you still have one. Unconscious
> means your CV is 0.
CV is halved if stunned
> >> And it adds to your sword's damage.
>
> q> Again, minimally - 1 or 2 DC.
>
> And again, it still adds, and at 15-20 Strength it is more like 3-4DC. The
> point is not the the ammount Strength adds; the point is that it *does*
> add, and that it adds much more than the character paid for.
I've forgotten if the start of this was referring to FH. If it was,
then strength minimums apply and you need that 18 strength to swing that 2
handed sword. If you are using a long sword (strength min 13) then 18-20
stregnth will only give 1 DC.
--
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Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 98 09:32:45 GMT
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness)
Subject: Re: STR Cost
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In a message dated 98-01-09 17:28:06 EST, tbarrie@ibm.net writes:
> On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Captain Spith wrote:
>
> > Hey! here's where we can help 'balance' STR! Simply require that
> > STR pay 1/5 END instead of 1/10! This will create a limitation to pay
> > for all of STRs 'freebie' points, and will effectively raise STR's basic
> > cost by 25% to make it equal in END cost to other powers! No, really,
> > this is GENIUS!
>
> Hmm. So, under the current system, if I take an extra 10 STR, it reduces
> my characteristic cost by 1, and if I need to use that extra STR it'll
> cost me 1 END. With this change, if I take an extra 10 STR, it reduces my
> characteristic cost by 1, and if I need to use that extra STR it'll cost
> me 2 END.
>
> To be honest, I don't see how that fixes much of anything.
Partially because you insist on emphasising buying 10 STR as reducing
characteristic cost by 1.
Under the current system you take an extra 10 STR which also brings you 2
PD,2 REC, and 5 STUN. Sure this would cost 11 points normally but you don't
reducce characteristic cost by one, you raise the characteristic costs by a
minimum of 5, unless of course you had already gone out and bought all of
that PD, REC, and STUN beforehand.
What it means is that under certain circumstances STR is more expensive than
it currently is to balance out the fact that _under certain circumstances_
STR currently often comes at a reduced cost.
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 06:07:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions Survey 1 more question
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On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Brian Wong wrote:
> Hello;
>
> I think one more important question needs to be added to this survey:
>
>
> Do you read comics?
Yes.
> If yes, how often and what flavor?
As the titles come out (I usually make a weekly visit to the store).
Titles include: Mage II, Blade of the Immortal, Gunsmith Cats... actually,
I read just about all of Dark Horse's translated manga titles. (I got
really tired of most mainstream superhero titles several years ago.
> If no why?
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 03:58:38 -0800
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On Sunday, January 11, 1998 8:39 PM, Len Carpenter wrote:
>
>On January 10, 1998, Filksinger replied to my previous post:
<snip>
>
>True, a 20 DEX doesn't seem so impressive with the official formula
for
>characteristic and skill rolls, and a 30 INT is needed just to have a
base
>15- with INT skills. Change the formula to 8+(CHA/3), and a 20 stat
gives
>you a base 15- roll, a 30 stat an 18- roll. I'd rather change the
formula
>than encourage characteristic inflation by thinking of 30 as the
human best.
>A push up to 30 STR when the stakes are high I can accept, but not a
normal
>30 STR where a character can safely and routinely lift and carry
about
>economy cars. A normal human having any primary stat as high 30
makes me
>squirm, while a 30 BODY makes me gag.
I don't have any objection to your suggestion for skill rolls, though
it changes the value of skills and skill levels vs characteristics,
making characteristics even more efficient than they are now.
<snip>
>> Let us assume that the most that a person could lift by a
measurable
>> amount, under ideal conditions, is 2.5 times the most _useful_ lift
>> you could get. Since the best ever was 6,270 lbs, this amount
divided
>> by 2.5 gives a maximum lift of 2,508 lbs, or 1,140 kg. If this
number
>> is compared to the Champion's lifting range, we get a 28 STR. Some
>> heroes, with GM permission, could be even stronger without being
>> superhuman, particularly in the superhero genres. Captain America
is a
>> perfect example.
>
>These figures go too high for my taste, so I'll reconsider the STR
study I
>did in my post on revising the Haymaker, looking at the maximum
potential
>muscle energy of a character based on his STR. If a 10 STR person
can lift
>and carry 100 kg on his shoulder, raising it to a height of nearly 2
meters
>for a tall person, that gives him a maximum potential energy (from
PE=mgh) of
>100*10*2 = 2,000 joules, with a bit more muscle energy to spare so he
can
>carry this load at half his normal movement rate and chew gum at the
same
>time. If the character does nothing but lift, attempting no other
effort
>like walking with the load, his total potential lift energy rises to
maybe
>2,500 joules, perhaps more. I don't know much about sports medicine,
though;
>I'm just guessing at what the lift energy gained might be by not
using the
>body's muscles to walk as well.
Unfortunately, at a 20 STR, this would allow a person to lift to his
shoulder and carry, while walking, 400 kg. No human on Earth can lift
such a weight to his own shoulder. Even a world-class weightlifter
cannot do that. The best that could be done is to lift it to waist
height (roughly a meter), or to get into a fairly deep crouch, get
your shoulders under it, and stand upright (also roughly a meter).
This matches fairly well with the maximums that can be done with a
squat or a deadlift.
>If he can lift 100 kg by 2 meters yet still walk, then he can lift
200 kg by
>1 meter, 400 kg by 0.5 meters, 800 kg to 0.25 meters, and so on.
(Yes, I
>know this isn't accurate physiology, humans being far more messy and
complex
>than the ideal cranes and pulley systems used in high school physics
>problems. I'm simplifying things terribly, I admit it. I'm also
introducing
>the notion of an infinite distance regression where a baby can lift
the
>Eiffel Tower micrometers off the ground, but that isn't a practical
problem
>worth troubled thoughts.) If he chooses not to move with the load,
focusing
>all his strength on lifting, these figures rise by about one-quarter.
Lets start with a 20 STR. This allows a weight equal to 400 kg to be
lifted 1 meter, assuming a squat or a deadlift. This would allow a
person who was lifting the weight by .25 meters, given your
suggestion, of 1600 kg, or 3200 kg by .125 meters. This equates well
with the present real world records of a squat or deadlift vs a
minimal shoulder lift.
So far, your analysis seems to be pretty good.
>So a 15 STR character has a potential lift energy of about 5 kJ and a
20 STR
>man 10 kJ, assuming he's doing nothing but lifting. That 20 STR man,
>remaining stationary, could safely lift 500 kg by 2 meters, 1000 kg
by 1
>meter, 2000 kg by 0.5 meters, and so forth.
That should be 400 kg, not 500. Additionally, that should be
>Judging by the photo in the 1985
>edition of the Guinness Book of World Records where Paul Anderson
lifts 6,270
>lbs. (2,850 kg)
HOLD IT! 2,850 kg is _not_ 6,270 lbs. Was this initial figure given in
lbs or kg? If kg, we need to start over, as neither one of us has been
doing this correctly.
>using a back lift, he's raised and supported the tortured
>barbell at not-quite waist height, no more than 1 meter, giving it a
>potential energy of roughly 26-30 kJ. Say he was inspired enough to
push his
>STR by +5 for this record. If his normal STR is 23, his pushed STR
of 28
>gives him a potential energy of about 30 kJ. He may still be able to
lift
>this much weight with a pushed 26-27 STR, so a normal STR of 22-23
isn't
>unreasonable for him.
A back lift is with your back under the barbell. The picture you
describe is a deadlift. The world record, today, for a deadlift is 406
kg, or 892 lbs.
There is no way the picture that you are looking at is him breaking
this particular record. This record is a back lift, which consists of
a barbell placed just above shoulder height. He places his shoulders
under it and lifts, six inches, tops. He may have been breaking some
other record that has now fallen by the wayside, but not the back
lift.
>As another example from Guinness, a Mrs. Max Hermann is reputed to
have once
>shouldered a 1,200-lb. cannon from the tailboard of a circus wagon.
Call
>that a potential energy of 550 kg * 10 m/s^2 * 1.5 m = 8.3 kJ.
That's within
>the safe potential of a 20 STR character, and an 18 STR character
could
>accomplish that with a modest push.
>
>Of course, with the margins for error inherent in these estimates,
I'm not
>proving much of anything--just trying to justify to myself a
pre-existing
>judgement of how high normal human STR should go.
Fair enough. Using minor adjustments based upon types of lifts, and a
few technical errors, this is not a bad analysis.
My suggestion, however, is not impacted by your analysis. Using your
analysis, lets go to my suggestion _merged_ with your suggestion.
First, the present lift cannot be a "to the shoulder from the ground
lift". No human on record has ever done anything close to what would
be required for a 20 STR. If we assume that the best in the world a)
do not push when lifting, and b) the present lift is a deadlift, the
most any human on record has done is lift from the ground to his
waist, roughly, about the same amount as the lift given for a 20 STR,
or placed that weight at just below shoulder height, lifted it, did a
deep squat, and stood back up again.
However, while it cannot be that _high_ (all the way onto the
shoulder) a lift, it could be lower. You suggested that, if a person
could lift an object 2 meters normally, that he could lift twice as
much half as high. Let us see what happens when we declare that the
STR chart's lifting column is telling us how much a given STR can lift
1/4th meter, or about 10 inches.
If that is what the lifting weight in the STR chart refers to, then
the strongest men in the world could, by your analysis, lift as much
as a 30 STR, using a back lift, and only lifting about ten inches.
I realize that you consider this too high for human, though it isn't
as bad as it looks. If we view that chart as being how much a man
could lift ten inches with his shoulders, then this is something that
normal world power lifters can do.
Now comes your suggestion for pushing STR. The power lifters do not
have a 30 STR. They have a 25 STR. When really trying, they push their
STR to 30, in order to get those records. This explains why no
weightlifter, desparate to win, has suddenly lifted twice what the
others were lifting. This explains why such extreme lifts are so very
exhausting. And using your idea, this allows for a 25 STR to be the
highest human STR in the real world and a 30 STR to be allowed for
normal (but very exceptional) humans in the super hero world. Lastly,
using your idea, it also explains why such lifts sometimes injure
people severely.
>> If this were done, then it gives less granularity at heroic levels.
It
>> would make a greater, more significant difference between average
and
>> very good. It would also bring most of the published characters
back
>> into a reasonable range.
>
>> Filksinger
>
>
>Len Carpenter
>redlion@early.com
>
Filksinger
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Champions Survey 1 more question
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 05:52:16 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> << Given that the survey is for gaming in the Superhero genre, it helps to
> know
> how many people read the source material, and what styles they go for. >>
>
> The survey is for the 5th Ed. Hero System, not just for Champions. It is for
> any genre. Just FYI.
>
> Mark @ GRG
>
Actually that's not true.
The survey as posted so far was set for questions on the super hero genre.
It specifically asked for super hero power levels, and agent power levels.
I suppose a later survey might ask for other power levels.
Perhaps another survey question is then what genre's do you use Hero for?
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:12:05 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Champions Survey (long)
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I did something like this several years back. Here were my results.
(I have more sympathy now for whoever it was that asked that responses
be mailed privately.)
Curt Hicks
----------------------------------------------------------------
Well here are the survey results, only about 6 months late.
Much thanks to all who responded.
What point levels can starting characters begin at ?
- 25 responses, average 280, high 450, low 235
What is the average DEX and SPD ?
- DEX 26 responses, average 24, high 29, low 15
- SPD 26 responses, average 5.5, high 6, low 3
What's the average EGO ?
- 20 responses, average 12.8, high 18, low 10
How common are mentalists ?
-"very rare to uncommon" Highest mentioned was 1 per team.
What is the maximum, if any, DEX and SPD ?
Does this vary for any types of
characters, e.g. speedsters or martial artists ?
- DEX 14 responses, average 26.4, high 38, low 20
- SPEED 15 responses, average 6.5, high 8, low 5
- Speedsters 3 responses for speed, average 7.7, high 9, low 7
- Martial Artists - 3 responses, all 30 DEX and 6 speed
- One response used Normal CHA maxima, but changed the max to
speed to 6, not 4 and based speed on 2 + DEX/10
- One response indicated that for characters with STR > 40,
the MAX speed was 5
What's the average PD and ED including force fields and armor ?
- PD 26 responses, average 23, high 35, low 12.5
- ED 26 responses, average 22, high 35, low 12.5
Average resistant PD and ED ?
- PD 22 responses, average 15, high 23, low 5
- ED 22 responses average 14.6, high 23, low 5
What's the maximum PD and ED ? Does this vary for types of character ?
- No distinction between PD and ED reported
- 6 responses - No maximums
- 17 other responses - average 31, high 40, low 25
- This didn't seem to vary by character type
- One response stated a requirement that a character be stunned
by an attack doing 60 Stun
- Another had a maximum SUM of PD & ED = 50
Maximum resistant PD and ED ?
- No distinction reported
- 2 responses - No maximums
- 10 other responses - average 27, high 30, low 20
What's the average STR for 'Brick-type' characters ?
- 20 responses, average 55, high 75, low 40
For martial artists ?
- 18 responses, average 22, high 35, low 15
What's the maximum STR allowed ?
- 15 responses, average 70, high 100, low 50
What's the active point range for attacks ?
- 6 answered without a range - average 60, high 75, low 50
- 14 other responses LOW END- average 50, high 75, low 30
- HIGH END- average 65, high 100, low 50
- greatest range was from 30 to 60,
there was another couple of 25 point ranges
Is there a limit for any type of attack ?
- 2 responses said none
- 8 other responses, average 72, high "21 damage classes" low 50
- One response limits by damage classes, not Points
- One response states the Damage Class is linked to the CV,
presumably inversely proportional
How many regular players do you have ?
- 25 responses, average 5.5., high 12, low 3
How many regular Characters ?
- 23 responses, average 7, high 18, low 3
If any, how many NPC heroes are on the team ?
- 9 responses said 0
- 9 other responses, average 1.8, high 3, low 1
What percentage original NPC's, 'Champions products' NPC's, comic book
company NPC's or villains ?
- 12 responses, average 75% original, high 99% original, low 20% original
What percentage original scenarios vs. 'modules' ?
- 23 responses, average 88% original, high 100% original, low 20% original
What's the average experience given out per episode ?
- 24 responses, average 2.7, high 5, low 1.5
How long has your game been running ?
- 21 responses, average 28.6 Months, high 8 Years, low 2 weeks
How much experience has the top character received ?
- 20 responses, average 121, high 360, low 4
I realize this is pretty much meaningless unless factored by
number of sessions. The low is for the two weeks game,
and the 360 is for a 7 year old game.
How often, if at all, do the player characters 'lose' ?
- 9 responses I felt I could put percentages on:
average 19% losses, high 33%, low .5%
- other responses ranged from "Mostly" to "Not Very Often"
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 07:29:45 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Champions Survey 1 more question
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At 09:38 PM 1/11/98 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>Hello;
>
> I think one more important question needs to be added to this survey:
>
>
>Do you read comics?
>
>If yes, how often and what flavor?
>
>If no why?
>
>
>Given that the survey is for gaming in the Superhero genre, it helps to know
>how many people read the source material, and what styles they go for.
That's for a different survey. :-]
Plus, there are other sources for superhero input. I'm a boob tube boob
more than a comix freak, myself.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 07:30:53 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Champions Survey 1 more question
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At 02:07 AM 1/12/98 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< Given that the survey is for gaming in the Superhero genre, it helps to
>know
>how many people read the source material, and what styles they go for. >>
>
> The survey is for the 5th Ed. Hero System, not just for Champions. It is
for
>any genre. Just FYI.
The survey as I was taking it was for Champions. I'll be turning to
heroic-level games a little later.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 07:37:53 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear.
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At 02:22 PM 1/11/98 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>On Sunday, January 11, 1998 7:01 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>
>>At 09:18 PM 1/10/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>
>>>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>>>
>>>>> "Teleportation" is the power you are looking for.
>>>
>>>BG> Teleportation, Usable Against Others, Indirect,
>Transdimensional,
>>>BG> Self Only?
>>>
>>>No, the duplicate has Teleportation. For himself. Nothing wrong
>with
>>>that.
>>
>> I think the original intent was to have the Duplicate's pop in at
>range
>>on his *initial* appearance, not the following Phase.
>
>Exactly. Duplication linked to Teleportation. When Duplication is
>fired, the character also Teleports. SFX, the Duplicate arrives
>elsewhere.
But duplicate can't have Duplication Linked to Teleportation (or the
other way around, which is what I think you meant). The original character
has Duplication, while under this proposal the duplicate has Teleportation.
AFAIK a Hero entity can't have a Power that's Linked to another entity's.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:32:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Damage Benchmarks
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Marc Seebass writes:
> I would like to see something that listed benchmarks for Damage in terms of
> volts or amps, pounds TNT, and so on. It could give a better idea of how
> to translate things, and also let the characters know just how powerfull
> that 12d6 EB is.
>
Well, there isn't a strict corrolation between 'damage' and energy. For
physical attacks, figure E = 10*2^dice for normal attacks; treat killing
attacks as 2 dice larger. For explosions, E will be _much_ higher; treat as
8-10 dice larger.
For energy attacks, this becomes harder to measure, since we have no way of
comparing the listed damage for attacks with any real-world equivalents; in
addition, thermal effects really aren't the most efficient way of killing
someone. In general, treat as 0-10 dice larger, depending what you're using
(basically, if it kills people with simple heat, add 10 dice; other methods
will be more efficient).
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From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:57:41 -0500
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On January 12, 1998, 7:26 AM, Filksinger replied:
(Material snipped)
FS>>> Let us assume that the most that a person could lift by a measurable
>>> amount, under ideal conditions, is 2.5 times the most _useful_ lift
>>> you could get. Since the best ever was 6,270 lbs, this amount divided
>>> by 2.5 gives a maximum lift of 2,508 lbs, or 1,140 kg. If this number
>>> is compared to the Champion's lifting range, we get a 28 STR. Some
>>> heroes, with GM permission, could be even stronger without being
>>> superhuman, particularly in the superhero genres. Captain America is a
FS>>> perfect example.
LC>> These figures go too high for my taste, so I'll reconsider the STR
>> study I did in my post on revising the Haymaker, looking at the maximum
>> potential muscle energy of a character based on his STR. If a 10 STR person
>> can lift and carry 100 kg on his shoulder, raising it to a height of nearly
2
>> meters for a tall person, that gives him a maximum potential energy (from
>> PE=mgh) of 100*10*2 = 2,000 joules, with a bit more muscle energy to spare
so
>> he can carry this load at half his normal movement rate and chew gum at the
>> same time. If the character does nothing but lift, attempting no other
>> effort like walking with the load, his total potential lift energy rises to
>> maybe 2,500 joules, perhaps more. I don't know much about sports medicine,
>> though; I'm just guessing at what the lift energy gained might be by not
LC>> using the body's muscles to walk as well.
FS> Unfortunately, at a 20 STR, this would allow a person to lift to his
> shoulder and carry, while walking, 400 kg. No human on Earth can lift
> such a weight to his own shoulder. Even a world-class weightlifter
> cannot do that. The best that could be done is to lift it to waist
> height (roughly a meter), or to get into a fairly deep crouch, get
> your shoulders under it, and stand upright (also roughly a meter).
> This matches fairly well with the maximums that can be done with a
FS> squat or a deadlift.
If so, then no 10 STR fireman can lift to his shoulder and carry, while walking
awkwardly, a 100-kg fire victim. This is what I've assumed a 10 STR allows,
provided that he does get his shoulder under the load and straightens up as
best as he can. This is not a true 2-meter lift, of course. But if he can
pull a limp body from the ground, place it over his shoulder, and walk, and if
the man is quite tall but not so tall that he has one level of Growth, a
potential muscle energy of 1,500-2,000 joules for this lift isn't too bad an
estimate. I err on the high side as the heights of people of normal STR can
vary so widely.
Another take: A 10 STR man could shoulder a 70 or 80 kg person, while a fireman
would have to have a 13 STR to shoulder-carry a 100 kg person. That places a
10 STR at more like a 1,500-joule potential energy. In your view, how heavy a
person could that 10 STR fireman be able to shoulder-carry a short distance?
LC>> If he can lift 100 kg by 2 meters yet still walk, then he can lift 200 kg
>> by 1 meter, 400 kg by 0.5 meters, 800 kg to 0.25 meters, and so on.
>> (Yes, I know this isn't accurate physiology, humans being far more messy
>> and complex than the ideal cranes and pulley systems used in high school
>> physics problems. I'm simplifying things terribly, I admit it. I'm also
>> introducing the notion of an infinite distance regression where a baby can
>> lift the Eiffel Tower micrometers off the ground, but that isn't a
>> practical problem worth troubled thoughts.) If he chooses not to move
>> with the load, focusing all his strength on lifting, these figures rise by
LC>> about one-quarter.
FS> Lets start with a 20 STR. This allows a weight equal to 400 kg to be
> lifted 1 meter, assuming a squat or a deadlift. This would allow a
> person who was lifting the weight by .25 meters, given your
> suggestion, of 1600 kg, or 3200 kg by .125 meters. This equates well
> with the present real world records of a squat or deadlift vs a
> minimal shoulder lift.
>
FS> So far, your analysis seems to be pretty good.
LC>> So a 15 STR character has a potential lift energy of about 5 kJ and a
>> 20 STR man 10 kJ, assuming he's doing nothing but lifting. That
>> 20 STR man, remaining stationary, could safely lift 500 kg by 2 meters,
LC>> 1000 kg by 1 meter, 2000 kg by 0.5 meters, and so forth.
FS> That should be 400 kg, not 500. Additionally, that should be
Here, I was making the distinction between a shoulder-carry while walking and a
stationary lift that permits a somewhat greater load to be lifted, crudely
approximating. We could shave the 15 STR energy down to 3.5-4 kJ and 20 STR
down to 7-8 kJ, instead, which are likely more realistic figures.
LC>> Judging by the photo in the 1985 edition of the Guinness Book of World
LC>> Records where Paul Anderson lifts 6,270 lbs. (2,850 kg)
FS> HOLD IT! 2,850 kg is _not_ 6,270 lbs. Was this initial figure given in
> lbs or kg? If kg, we need to start over, as neither one of us has been
FS> doing this correctly.
Yes, there are 2.205 lbs. per kg in Earth's gravity well. 6,270 lbs. divided
by 2.205 is 2,843.5 kg.
LC>> using a back lift, he's raised and supported the tortured
>> barbell at not-quite waist height, no more than 1 meter, giving it a
>> potential energy of roughly 26-30 kJ. Say he was inspired enough to
>> push his STR by +5 for this record. If his normal STR is 23, his
>> pushed STR of 28 gives him a potential energy of about 30 kJ. He
>> may still be able to lift this much weight with a pushed 26-27 STR,
LC>> so a normal STR of 22-23 isn't unreasonable for him.
FS> A back lift is with your back under the barbell. The picture you
> describe is a deadlift. The world record, today, for a deadlift is 406
> kg, or 892 lbs.
>
> There is no way the picture that you are looking at is him breaking
> this particular record. This record is a back lift, which consists of
> a barbell placed just above shoulder height. He places his shoulders
> under it and lifts, six inches, tops. He may have been breaking some
> other record that has now fallen by the wayside, but not the back
FS> lift.
You're right; I wrote that part in haste. The photo depicts not his record
setting back-lift, but a sample deadlift of an unspecified barbell weight.
I'll revise. Now if he did raise that 6,270-lb. weight a mere six inches, then
he changed the energy state of that weight by 2,850 kg * 10 m/s^2 * .15 m = 4.3
kJ. That's on a par with changing the energy state of a 400 kg mass by raising
it a little over 1 meter. So a 20 STR is good enough. That certainly appears
way off, if a 15 STR man can Push his STR by +5 and match that amazing feat.
Now we're into the messy science of equating the mechanical act of
weightlifting with physiological work, where a person's muscles must strain
just to support a given mass even if it isn't displaced by a single millimeter.
I have no numbers to throw out regarding the potential or peak power output of
the human body. So I just guestimated that physiological work can be crudely
approximated by measuring gravitational potential energy from the floor--which
is where the weight will crash to when fatigue sets in and the person can no
longer maintain the physiological process of converting chemical energy into
mechanical energy to generate the force that supports the weight. This seemed
more reasonable than going by a change in potential energy when a weight is
raised by but a few inches.
And that's another reason why I didn't want to consider Anderson's
record-setting lift as a guideline for STR figures in the first place--so many
factors involved, and so much about human physiology I know nothing about. I'd
rather stick with the plain-old press above the head and a simple
estimation--50 kg for 10 STR, up to 400 kg for Captain America's 25 STR.
Anything better than that for a non-superhuman is a Push.
LC>> As another example from Guinness, a Mrs. Max Hermann is reputed to
>> have once shouldered a 1,200-lb. cannon from the tailboard of a
>> circus wagon. Call that a potential energy of
>> 550 kg * 10 m/s^2 * 1.5 m = 8.3 kJ. That's within the safe
>> potential of a 20 STR character, and an 18 STR character
>> could accomplish that with a modest push.
>>
>> Of course, with the margins for error inherent in these estimates,
>> I'm not proving much of anything--just trying to justify to myself a
LC>> pre-existing judgement of how high normal human STR should go.
FS> Fair enough. Using minor adjustments based upon types of lifts, and a
> few technical errors, this is not a bad analysis.
>
> My suggestion, however, is not impacted by your analysis. Using your
> analysis, lets go to my suggestion _merged_ with your suggestion.
>
> First, the present lift cannot be a "to the shoulder from the ground
> lift". No human on record has ever done anything close to what would
> be required for a 20 STR. If we assume that the best in the world a)
> do not push when lifting, and b) the present lift is a deadlift, the
> most any human on record has done is lift from the ground to his
> waist, roughly, about the same amount as the lift given for a 20 STR,
> or placed that weight at just below shoulder height, lifted it, did a
FS> deep squat, and stood back up again.
I'll buy that.
FS> However, while it cannot be that _high_ (all the way onto the
> shoulder) a lift, it could be lower. You suggested that, if a person
> could lift an object 2 meters normally, that he could lift twice as
> much half as high. Let us see what happens when we declare that the
> STR chart's lifting column is telling us how much a given STR can lift
> 1/4th meter, or about 10 inches.
>
> If that is what the lifting weight in the STR chart refers to, then
> the strongest men in the world could, by your analysis, lift as much
> as a 30 STR, using a back lift, and only lifting about ten inches.
>
> I realize that you consider this too high for human, though it isn't
> as bad as it looks. If we view that chart as being how much a man
> could lift ten inches with his shoulders, then this is something that
> normal world power lifters can do.
>
> Now comes your suggestion for pushing STR. The power lifters do not
> have a 30 STR. They have a 25 STR. When really trying, they push their
> STR to 30, in order to get those records. This explains why no
> weightlifter, desparate to win, has suddenly lifted twice what the
> others were lifting. This explains why such extreme lifts are so very
> exhausting. And using your idea, this allows for a 25 STR to be the
> highest human STR in the real world and a 30 STR to be allowed for
> normal (but very exceptional) humans in the super hero world. Lastly,
> using your idea, it also explains why such lifts sometimes injure
FS> people severely.
Makes sense. I certainly can buy Anderson as having a 23 STR and having pushed
it to 28 when he back-lifted that mighty load. I like setting Cap at a 25 STR
and treating Anderson as a little under that--Anderson's a big guy, but not as
impressive looking as Cap.
Let me through out another suggestion. Some folks on the list who figure they
have about a 10 STR can do some testing of their strength at a gym--press,
benchpress, deadlift, shoulder-lift, back-lift, and so on. They posts their
results, and we average them. Then we can extrapolate the numbers upward to
two-, four-, eight-, and sixteen-times a healthy human's lift in each category.
Sounds like a whole lotta fun, don't it?
Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com
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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:38:38 -0800
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: TK question...
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I just started playing a character with TK, and the GM and another
player (both of who have been playing Champions for *ever*) informed
me of an aspect of the power that I wasn't aware of. I went along
with the ruling for the game, but I wanted to run it by the list.
They stated that, without something to brace against, it is impossible
to break free of telekinesis. Thus, assuming that I had enough
strength to lift someone a few feet off the ground, I could
conceivably hold them there forever, no matter how strong they were.
The went on to mention that this has happened fairly often in the
comics, using Juggernaut as an example. He has been shown getting
picked up by Jean Grey's TK, and not being able to break out.
So, what about this? Is this the way it should be played, or a house
rule, or an earlier version of TK? (Note: This radically improves the
power, IMHO, perhaps unbalancing it completely.)
Richard
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: TK question...
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "RGS" == Richard G Schwerdtfeger <RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com>
>>>>> writes:
RGS> They stated that, without something to brace against, it is
RGS> impossible to break free of telekinesis.
No Champions book has ever had this restriction. In fact, it violates a
fundamental premise of the game: there is always a defense.
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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:04:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: TK question...
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Richard G Schwerdtfeger writes:
> I just started playing a character with TK, and the GM and another
> player (both of who have been playing Champions for *ever*) informed
> me of an aspect of the power that I wasn't aware of. I went along
> with the ruling for the game, but I wanted to run it by the list.
>
> They stated that, without something to brace against, it is impossible
> to break free of telekinesis. <zappp>
> So, what about this? Is this the way it should be played, or a house
> rule, or an earlier version of TK? (Note: This radically improves the
> power, IMHO, perhaps unbalancing it completely.)
This is a house rule. A TK grab is a grab, and can be broken out of like any
other grab. Note that arguably there _should_ be an effect like what they
describe, it does sometimes fit the genre, but TK doesn't do this, and it would
be a fairly large advantage on TK to let it work this way. Also, since
grabbing someone with TK ends your action, they generally will have a phase to
break free.
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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:08:58 -0800
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com>
Subject: Re: TK question...
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At 01:58 PM 1/12/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "RGS" == Richard G Schwerdtfeger <RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com>
>>>>>> writes:
>
>RGS> They stated that, without something to brace against, it is
>RGS> impossible to break free of telekinesis.
>
>No Champions book has ever had this restriction. In fact, it violates a
>fundamental premise of the game: there is always a defense.
>
Yeah, that's a house rule that you need something to push against to resist
TK. The Hero System rules give a STR vs STR roll to break free, there are
no special requirements.
Most GMs I've played with view it like this, TK is like a hand (claw, fist,
whatever) you apply your strength against it's, if you break free, you drop
to the ground and can continue on.
-Nic
+-------------------------------------------------+
| naneiden@iswest.com |
| http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/ |
| "Kame...hame..ha!" - Goku, Gohan & Goten |
+-------------------------------------------------+
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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:13:39 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: TK question...
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At 10:38 AM 1/12/98 -0800, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote:
> I just started playing a character with TK, and the GM and another
> player (both of who have been playing Champions for *ever*) informed
> me of an aspect of the power that I wasn't aware of. I went along
> with the ruling for the game, but I wanted to run it by the list.
>
> They stated that, without something to brace against, it is impossible
> to break free of telekinesis. Thus, assuming that I had enough
> strength to lift someone a few feet off the ground, I could
> conceivably hold them there forever, no matter how strong they were.
> The went on to mention that this has happened fairly often in the
> comics, using Juggernaut as an example. He has been shown getting
> picked up by Jean Grey's TK, and not being able to break out.
>
> So, what about this? Is this the way it should be played, or a house
> rule, or an earlier version of TK? (Note: This radically improves the
> power, IMHO, perhaps unbalancing it completely.)
>
Hmmm...
There's a certain logic to it. Most TK FX are intangible...magnetic fields,
winds, pure mental energy, etc, and there isn't anything to push against.
You would just flail around inside the field. If there's solid ground, you
might be able to push yourself out of the field, but in midair? Hm.
But it DOES make it very powerful...a person can be STR 90 and still only
weigh 100 kg or so, making it possible for a STR 20 TK to hold Superbrick
wih ease.
Unbalancing, but logical. This being hero, point balance is more important. :)
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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:16:10 -0500 (EST)
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From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Re: TK question...
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 10:38 AM 1/12/98 -0800, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote:
> So, what about this? Is this the way it should be played, or a house
> rule, or an earlier version of TK? (Note: This radically improves the
> power, IMHO, perhaps unbalancing it completely.)
>
> Richard
>
>
I would say this is a fairly unbalancing way to look at TK. 10 str Tk is
enough to lift just about anyone, baring density increase or growth and not
terribly expensive. This also seems to assume the sfx of the telekinsis is
"mental force" when it can be just about anything. Even then, in comics,
psychokinetics typically visualize there power as an "invisble hand" I don't
see any reason why someone held by it, can't fight aginst it.
I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
But it sure feels good!
Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior
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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:36:59 +0000
From: Chris Brecken <Christopher.Brecken@sunderland.ac.uk>
Subject: Bugs
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Has anyone ever created any electronic location bugs.
The best idear i could come up with was 'Detect' bug, at range !!!
Anyone got any better sujestions please
Chris
--
"Don't put your trust in foolish promises sworn.
Nor cryptic message scrawled upon every wall"
Tony Clarkin,
The Spirit
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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:48:46 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: Bugs
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<x-rich>At 07:36 PM 1/12/98 +0000, Chris Brecken wrote:
>Has anyone ever created any electronic location bugs.
>
>The best idear i could come up with was 'Detect' bug, at range !!!
>
>Anyone got any better sujestions please
What's wrong with "Detect bugs at range"? It works well IMC.
Scott
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Since then, at an uncertain hour,
That agony returns:
And till my ghastly tale is told,
This heart within me burns."
<bold>Samuel Taylor Coleridge - </bold><italic>The Rime of the Ancient
Mariner
</italic>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
nolan@erols.com
</x-rich>
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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:09:09 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Bugs
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On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Chris Brecken wrote:
> Has anyone ever created any electronic location bugs.
>
> The best idear i could come up with was 'Detect' bug, at range !!!
>
> Anyone got any better sujestions please
Soudns good to me. That's what detect is there for. In heroic games,
though, characters with "Bugging" skill or perhaps "Security Systems"
might get such standard equipment for free.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Bugs
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "CB" == Chris Brecken <Christopher.Brecken@sunderland.ac.uk> writes:
CB> Has anyone ever created any electronic location bugs.
CB> The best idear i could come up with was 'Detect' bug, at range !!!
If by "bug" you mean "homing beacon", a ranged detect should serve
reasonably well. A hidden beacon would be considered "Inobvious" as per
Focus rules (and would probably require some form of Concealment skill roll
to properly hide). GMs should be reasonable with ranges. A transmitter
the size of a dime is not going to have a range greater than a few hundred
yards.
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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:51:56 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: TK question...
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> They stated that, without something to brace against, it is impossible
> to break free of telekinesis. Thus, assuming that I had enough
> strength to lift someone a few feet off the ground, I could
> conceivably hold them there forever, no matter how strong they were.
Um. While this may be part of a SFX, it is not part of TK as
written. Whoever was targeted by that TK was flat out screwed.
> The went on to mention that this has happened fairly often in the
> comics, using Juggernaut as an example. He has been shown getting
> picked up by Jean Grey's TK, and not being able to break out.
Yup. But that doesn't mean that the Champions power includes that
ability. That would be a much larger expenditure of points, possibly some
Flight, UAO linked to the TK?
> So, what about this? Is this the way it should be played, or a house
> rule, or an earlier version of TK? (Note: This radically improves the
> power, IMHO, perhaps unbalancing it completely.)
This shouldn't be played this way, even with a house rule. It
very much unbalances the power. Possibly I could see allowing an
advantage to half someone's escape STR without something to brace against,
otherwise . . . well, someone with, say, 10 STR TK could lift and hold
any normal human indefinately. For 15 pts. Unblancing as all hell.
-Tim Gilberg
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear.
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:54:24 -0800
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On Monday, January 12, 1998 7:19 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 02:22 PM 1/11/98 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>>On Sunday, January 11, 1998 7:01 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>
>>
>>>At 09:18 PM 1/10/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
<snip>
>>>>No, the duplicate has Teleportation. For himself. Nothing wrong
>>with
>>>>that.
>>>
>>> I think the original intent was to have the Duplicate's pop in
at
>>range
>>>on his *initial* appearance, not the following Phase.
>>
>>Exactly. Duplication linked to Teleportation. When Duplication is
>>fired, the character also Teleports. SFX, the Duplicate arrives
>>elsewhere.
>
> But duplicate can't have Duplication Linked to Teleportation (or
the
>other way around, which is what I think you meant). The original
character
>has Duplication, while under this proposal the duplicate has
Teleportation.
> AFAIK a Hero entity can't have a Power that's Linked to another
entity's.
Actually, it would be like this. I have Duplication, with
Teleportation linked to Duplication. I summon a duplicate, and
teleport to the other location simultaneously. SFX, the duplicate
arrives at a distance.
Alternately, and needed if the Duplicate is not identical to the
original (aside from the Teleportation and Duplications), then the
Duplicate can have Teleportation, Triggered by coming into existence.
Otherwise, you have a power that is virtually identical to
teleportation, but because it is created by an Advantage whose Range
is based upon Active points in the power, it will always be _cheaper_
than Teleportation.
Look at these figures. For 25 pts., Duplication, 100 pt duplicate,
Ranged (+1/4). This gives you 125" Teleportation AND Duplication.
This same Teleportation, without the Duplication, costs 250 pts. TEN
TIMES CHEAPER.
Not in my campaign, buster.
Filksinger
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: TK question...
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
TRG> Yup. But that doesn't mean that the Champions power includes that
TRG> ability. That would be a much larger expenditure of points, possibly
TRG> some Flight, UAO linked to the TK?
Or perhaps Jean's TK is more powerful than you may think.
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and
\ kept under refrigeration.
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:19:48 -0800
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On Monday, January 12, 1998 3:35 AM, Filksinger wrote:
<snip>
>>Judging by the photo in the 1985
>>edition of the Guinness Book of World Records where Paul Anderson
>lifts 6,270
>>lbs. (2,850 kg)
>
>HOLD IT! 2,850 kg is _not_ 6,270 lbs. Was this initial figure given
in
>lbs or kg? If kg, we need to start over, as neither one of us has
been
>doing this correctly.
This is what I get for getting up early and posting. 2,850 kg _is_
6,270 lbs.
_DOH!_ (Smack head.)
Filksinger
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear.
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
F> Actually, it would be like this. I have Duplication, with Teleportation
F> linked to Duplication. I summon a duplicate, and teleport to the other
F> location simultaneously. SFX, the duplicate arrives at a distance.
Workable if the duplicate is identical to the original.
However, the more I think about it, the more I find Ranged + Indirect at
the highest level to be the cleanest solution. Very expensive, though...
but it should be.
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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:02:26 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: TK question...
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> TRG> Yup. But that doesn't mean that the Champions power includes that
> TRG> ability. That would be a much larger expenditure of points, possibly
> TRG> some Flight, UAO linked to the TK?
>
> Or perhaps Jean's TK is more powerful than you may think.
Nope. I'd personally spend enough on her TK to easily hold Juggy,
but that's not the point. There does exist decidedly weaker TK, say on
the 30-40 STR level, that has demonstrated the ability to hold someone
indefinately if they can't brace against something to get free. This
would best be represented by some Flight, UAO or some new advantage on TK
to allow for some different mechanic to break free.
-Tim Gilberg
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: aregalad@miami.edu
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:19:44 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Wish: Benchmarks (was: A Sample Character)
Cc: Hero System Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org&>
"aregalad@miami.edu" <aregalad@miami.edu>
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Howdy,
> >> >Actually, you have just proved my point and validated my observations
> >> >about INT. You are right about ONE thing. When I said INT is only good for
> >> >Perception and INT rolls I neglected to mention skill rolls (I kind of
> >> >lumped them with INT rolls - my bad). The thing is that skills based on
> >> >INT and INT rolls have the same breakdown - hence they have the same
> >> >problem. Nothing about my argument is invalidated.
> >>
> >> Actually it was, but if you add in INT based skills, then yes, it makes
> >> a VAST difference, and as far as you go, I agree with you, but there
> >> are alternatives.
> >
> >I'm sorry - when you say "Actually it was," what do you mean?
>
> Invalidated, totally.
Hmmm...I'm afraid we are just going to have to disagree. I honestly can't
even begin to see how this is the case.
> > As far as INT based skills making a huge difference
> >- not really, at least not relative to other characteristic rolls and the
> >skills they modify.
>
> The invalidation because there are camapigns which emphasise skills
> rather than powers, and in such campaigns, INT is very effective.
My only point here is that there are skills based on PRE, DEX, STR just as
there are skills based on INT. Because of this - even in a game that
emphasizes skills over powers - INT is no more important than the other
stats. Even if it were, this beside the point. I never said
INT wasn't effective. My point is that if you are going to break down the
effectiveness of ALL characteristics these categories need to make
sense and to do so they should each make a difference in game play
(otherwise the categories mean nothing).
> >> Alternatively, as in the example of the Repartee rules, you can have an
> >> INT CV, which would be appropriate for many mental powers, and, in a FH
> >> game, you can allow wizards to have INT/3 spells active instead of the
> >> INT/5 that is more appropriate for the modern era.
> >
> >We could, but we don't. :]
>
> Why not try it? I'm not running a Hero campaign at the moment, but it
> strikes me as being eminently sensible for non-superhero campaigns.
It might be sensible. I'm not saying its a bad idea - I'm just saying that
for the purpose of my benchmarks I'd rather stick to the official
characteristic rules.
> >I want benchmarks (they don't have to be mine -
> >of course - but benchmarks of some sort) to be an official part of 5th Ed.
> >HERO. For this to be the case they have to be based on official rules -
> >not house rules or genre specific rules (as good as they may be).
>
> That I agree with
Cool.
> >> Anyway, as I stated earlier, INT is very cheap for its utility.
> >
> >I'm not at all concerned with cost.
> !
Heh, your exclamation mark response leads me to believe that you
have not fully understood my argument (probably my fault for not being
clear enough). I have NEVER said that INT wasn't cost effective. I'm just
saying that if you make 20 near human maximum, there is not enough
granularity to make a convincing set of benchmarks. Most benchmark tables
I've seen break stats down into aproximately 5 categories between average
and human maximum. Fuzion's are pretty standard. Again, they are:
Everyman, Competent, Heroic, Incredible and Legendary. If 20 is near
maximim you only have 3 breakdown points: 11<, 12< and 13<.
Can you see this? Does this make sense?
Let me try to give an example. I'm making Doc Genius in a campaign that
heavily emphasizes skills over powers. I decide to look at my 5th Edition
HERO book and find that they have a handy dandy benchmark table that looks
something like this:
10-12 Everyman 11<
13-14 Competent 12<
15-16 Heroic 12<
17-18 Incredible 13<
19-20 Legendary 13<
Cool, well Doc Genius is the brightest there is, so I buy him a 20 INT.
Now he has a 13< in his 50 science skills.
Now my friend Mike is making a character named Mr. Pedantry. This guy is
pretty smart (although a show-off) but Mike decides that he is not as
smart as Doc Genius. Because of this he buys Mr. Pedantry an 18 INT. Now
the base Mr. Pedantry's 10 science skills is ...... 13<! Wait! That's the
same as Doc Genius' Legendary INT.
Now, I'm not really complaining about my skill base. I mean, 13 or less in
50 sciences is pretty good. I DO, however, think the benchmarks don't make
sense. Why does somebody with a Legendary INT have the same skill base as
somebody with an Incredible INT? Why buy a Legendary INT at all?
That is why I can't understand why you feel my argument has been refuted
somehow. All I was arguing is that HERO needs to take these discrepancies
into consideration when they make their benchmark tables (if they make
'em). They either need to make the human maximum for INT (and maybe PRE)
much higher to give the granularity such benchmark tables need - or they
need to redefine the way INT works (all of Vox and Phantom's suggestions
were good, IMO).
Well, that is about as clear as I can be. If you still can't see my point,
I would appreciate an explanation of yours. I'd honestly be interested in
hearing your logic. Thanks for your time.
Dragonfly
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: aregalad@miami.edu
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:25:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Damage Benchmarks
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> I would like to see something that listed benchmarks for Damage in terms of
> volts or amps, pounds TNT, and so on. It could give a better idea of how to
> translate things, and also let the characters know just how powerfull that
> 12d6 EB is.
I agree:
Damage Benchmarks would be cool too (as would benchmarks for skills and
levels).
Dragonfly
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:40:14 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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OK, one more question for help regarding The Ultimate Super Vehicle.
I need help from those who are better informed than I about what
equipment should be considered "standard" for all vehicles of various
types. I especially need help with air and water vehicles, since it's been
several years since I've been aboard either where I could get a clear of
the controls, and the fershlugginer Britannica doesn't have this
information (I remember that my old World Book did; I miss it).
These are the lists as I currently have them:
Air Vehicles:
Altimeter
Beacon Lights
Climate Control
Fuel Gauge
Interior Lights
Radar (360 degree, non-Discriminatory, non-Targeting)
Radio (2-way)
Running Lights
Seat Belts
Ground Vehicles:
Air Conditioning (except motorcycles)
Cigarette Lighter
Dome Light
Engine Thermometer
Fuel Gauge
Headlights
Locks for all doors
Lock for the ignition
Lock for the trunk
Odometer
Radio (AM/FM)
Seat Belts & Air Bag
Speedometer
Turn Signals
Windshield Wipers
Water Vehicles:
Fuel Gauge
Interior Lights
Lock for the ignition
Running Lights
Seat Belts
Speedometer
As you can see, I'm going to need some help with correct terminology
here as well as the equipment itself.
Keep in mind that this is equipment other than that directly associated
with moving, turning, and so forth.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:49:23 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 07:36 PM 1/12/98 +0000, Chris Brecken wrote:
>Has anyone ever created any electronic location bugs.
>
>The best idear i could come up with was 'Detect' bug, at range !!!
>
>Anyone got any better sujestions please
In TUSV, I'm also using Detect at Range, though I call the Sense "Detect
Selected Target." Optional elements are Sense, Discriminatory, Targeting,
Telescopic, and 360 Degree, and IAF, Continuing Charges, and Requires an
Attack Roll (-1/2) are also applied.
(The Attack Roll is made when the bug is planted, and does not suffer
penalties for Active Points.)
Of course, as with everything else in TUSV, this has yet to pass muster
with the Line Edtior (Mr. Harlick).
---
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:45:00 -0800
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Re: TK question...
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Lots of people responded to my question, saying virtually the same
thing. Thanks to all. Let's take one response, for example:
Tim Gilberg wrote:
>I wrote:
>>They stated that, without something to brace against, it
>>is impossible to break free of telekinesis. Thus, assuming
>>that I had enough strength to lift someone a few feet off
>>the ground, I could conceivably hold them there forever, no
>>matter how strong they were.
>Um. While this may be part of a SFX, it is not part of TK as
>written. Whoever was targeted by that TK was flat out screwed.
That would have been Fiacho. I was very lucky to hit him, rolling a
six, and he was in the air for the rest of combat. (Note: this is a
30 STR TK that I used.)
>>They went on to mention that this has happened fairly often in the
>>comics, using Juggernaut as an example. He has been shown getting
>>picked up by Jean Grey's TK, and not being able to break out.
>Yup. But that doesn't mean that the Champions power includes that
>ability. That would be a much larger expenditure of points, possibly
>some Flight, UAO linked to the TK?
Exactly what I suggested to them. Plus, Jean's TK is pretty hefty.
She's been shown picking up the Blackbird, hasn't she? Maybe she also
has some additional TK STR, only to continue holding someone. What
kind of limitation would that be?
>>So, what about this? Is this the way it should be played, or a house
>>rule, or an earlier version of TK? (Note: This radically improves
>>the power, IMHO, perhaps unbalancing it completely.)
>This shouldn't be played this way, even with a house rule. It
>very much unbalances the power. Possibly I could see allowing an
>advantage to half someone's escape STR without something to brace
>against, otherwise . . . well, someone with, say, 10 STR TK could
>lift and hold any normal human indefinitely. For 15 pts. Unblancing
>as all hell.
That's exactly the way I felt, too. And the reason I brought it up
here. I didn't want to stop the game to argue the rules, so I just let
it run. But I think that I will talk to the GM before the next game,
and see if we can correct this.
The funny thing about this is that this is a GM decision that's
completely unbalancing *IN MY FAVOR*, and I'm still fighting it!
Am I a moron or what? ;)
One last question: So TK is performed like a normal grab, right? Well,
does it take the normal CV modifiers that the grab maneuver takes (-2
to OCV, IIRC)? Or is it easier to use because it is a power?
Richard
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X-Sender: jrc@pop1.nai.net
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:19:52 -0500
From: "Joe Claffey Jr." <jrc@mail1.nai.net>
Subject: Re: Magic Shapeshifting Potions
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"Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> asks,
>
>So how do you model the classical fantasy 'magic potion', such that a player
>character can find one in a chest and be able to use it. Drinking it lets the
>hero turn into any animal he wants, for up to 1 hour.
Usually a VPP: Animal Powers, used with a Universal Expendable Focus.
>And after you've modeled the potion, how do you model the alchemist who
>makes a
>living creating and selling such potions?
>
>This problem seems to be a perennial one in Fantasy Hero games.
The system that I'm working on treats the potions as Universal Expendable
Foci. They take a lot of Extra Time to create (typically a week). Many
require ingredients that are difficult to find.
Joe Claffey | "In the end, everything is a gag."
jrc@ct1.nai.net | - Charlie Chaplin
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From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com>
Subject: Explosives
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:53:30 -0500
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Stirling Westrup recently kicked off a debate on TNT sticks damage in the
thread "Double Energy per DC?" I agree with his assessment of the problem
with the official rules. Examining the tables and equations on cutting
charges in a military field guide (wonderful, the things you can pick up
in used book store), where it's recommended to roughly double the charge
for every doubling of the mass to be effected, I don't buy the rule that
doubling the number of TNT sticks increases damage by +2d6.
Detailed info on demolitions can be found in the engineering field manual
at
www.atsc-army.org/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/5-34/toc.htm.
Another quibble with the official table: Many have questioned whether
firearms in the game do unrealistically low damage amounts. To me, this
pales in comparison to the problem of the wimpy damage done by high
explosives. 5d6 EX with a dynamite stick? You couldn't K.O. Sugar Ray
Leonard with one of those.
Here's my approach. The explosion of one gram of TNT releases about 1
kilocalorie of energy (1 kcal = 4,187 joules). C-4 explosive is 1.34
times as effective as TNT. Exploding one gram of nitroglycerine releases
about 6,300 joules, but it's nastier to work with than TNT.
Assuming that 1 DC is about 50 joules with a doubling of energy for every
additional DC, that puts one gram of TNT at about 7d6 damage, provided the
character takes the full brunt of the blast.
That rarely happens, though, unless you have a guy like the Tick, who just
might throw himself on or even swallow a bomb to save Arthur. An
explosion's energy is dissipated into every possible direction, even into
directions where there's nothing worth blowing up. Packing an explosive
charge into the material to be cut or breached, and so confining the rapid
expansion of gasses, is far more effective than merely placing the charge
right next to the object or wall. As a rule of thumb, to judge the
effective energy of a charge when it explodes next to or near its target,
or within the same hex as the target, divide the total energy released by
five.
So that 1 gm of TNT exploding in the open has an effective blast energy of
just 4,200/5 = 800 joules directed at any single nearby target, for a 5d6
EX. 500 gm (or 1 lb.) would do 14d6 EX, 1 kg 15d6, 1 ton 25d6, 1 kiloton
35d6, and 1 megaton 45d6.
Some more fun facts:
When the pressure wave of an explosion can reflect off a solid surface,
its pressure may be multiplied several times. A shock wave that might
cause minimal injury to a person in the open can cause severe trauma to a
victim standing beside a stone wall.
A powerful shock wave may be accompanied by transient winds that can
accelerate small objects to velocities of hundreds of meters per second.
A missile traveling at 15 m/sec can easily penetrate human skin, while one
moving at 120 m/sec can enter any of the major body cavities, causing
serious internal injury.
The ear is very sensitive to blast energies. A pressure of just 5-7 psi
above atmospheric pressure can rupture the tympanic membrane, resulting in
ringing in the ear, pain, and some loss of hearing. So a Flash Attack vs.
hearing may be appropriately linked to typical explosions, with a
permanent deafness Transform possible with very powerful blasts.
To get even more realistic with explosives, the damage dice should not
drop off as rapidly as with the basic Explosion Advantage. For persons in
the open, the minimum safe distance in meters is 100 * the cube-root of
the weight of the TNT in pounds. So for just 1 pound, this recommended
distance is 100 meters. For 500 pounds, 800 meters. Treating explosives
as dropping of by -1 DC per 3" or 4" distance gives a more threateningly
realistic blast radius.
An explosion shock wave will travel much faster and farther in water than
in air, so the blast damage will fall off even more gradually, perhaps by
-1 DC per 6"-8" distance from the blast center.
Fragmentation bombs involve something more. They do damage both from the
concussive blast of the charge and from the fragments or shrapnel sent
flying at great speed. I would treat that as an autofire RKA explosion
linked to the explosive charge, to represent the multiple fragments that
may strike every target within the blast radius. Typical fragmentation
grenades might be a 10d6 or 11d6 EX, -1 DC per 3," with a 1-1/2d6 or 2d6
autofire RKA EX, -1 DC per 2", linked to it.
Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com
Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:07:08 -0800
From: mcallahan <mcallahan@home.com>
Reply-To: mcallahan@home.com
Subject: Re: TK question...
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To: champ-l@omg.org
The GM's decision was flat wrong, basic TK is directly resisted by
Strength. For the "I can lift you of the ground and since you have
nothing to push against you can't move" type of TK try buying TK AVLD
versus flight used as strength (as per Page 142 of the BBB 2" of fligt
can be used as 1 pt of STR), and teleportation escapes automaticly,
still ugly, but at least its expensive.
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Explosives
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>>>>> "LC" == Len Carpenter <redlion@voicenet.com> writes:
LC> Stirling Westrup recently kicked off a debate on TNT sticks damage in
LC> the thread "Double Energy per DC?" I agree with his assessment of the
LC> problem with the official rules. Examining the tables and equations on
LC> cutting charges in a military field guide
Are *COMPLETELY* different from TNT. There are basically two types of
explosives: those that cut and those that "explode".
C4 does not explode. It creates tremendous localized shock that literally
causes the thing to which it is attached to shake itself apart. Stand a
few feet away and you'll catch some buffetting and maybe some shrap.
TNT does explode, great gouts of fire pushed by a large shock wave,
completely different effect.
One should not be used as a benchmark for another.
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: TK question...
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 01:14:32 -0800
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On Monday, January 12, 1998 5:25 PM, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote:
> Lots of people responded to my question, saying virtually the
same
> thing. Thanks to all. Let's take one response, for example:
>
> Tim Gilberg wrote:
> >I wrote:
<snip>
> >>So, what about this? Is this the way it should be played, or a
house
> >>rule, or an earlier version of TK? (Note: This radically
improves
> >>the power, IMHO, perhaps unbalancing it completely.)
>
> >This shouldn't be played this way, even with a house rule. It
> >very much unbalances the power. Possibly I could see allowing
an
> >advantage to half someone's escape STR without something to
brace
> >against, otherwise . . . well, someone with, say, 10 STR TK
could
> >lift and hold any normal human indefinitely. For 15 pts.
Unblancing
> >as all hell.
>
> That's exactly the way I felt, too. And the reason I brought it
up
> here. I didn't want to stop the game to argue the rules, so I
just let
> it run. But I think that I will talk to the GM before the next
game,
> and see if we can correct this.
Try this for the TK described- TK, NND. True, it isn't how NND is
usually used, but TK has two effects here, grabbing and damaging.
Neither, one, or both could be NND. (An example of an NND TK for
damage would be someone grabbing your heart, or squeezing your lungs
directly.)
Filksinger
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Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 07:44:58 -0500
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Bugs
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At 07:36 PM 1/12/98 +0000, Chris Brecken wrote:
>Has anyone ever created any electronic location bugs.
>
>The best idear i could come up with was 'Detect' bug, at range !!!
>
>Anyone got any better sujestions please
>
This is one of those seemingly simple everyday items which should
be simple to make, but for some reason always come out costing 40
points in Champions rules.
Anyway, I think there's a discussion of bugs in the Dark Champions
book. You can also use Detect, Clairsentience or Radio Hearing, I
suppose.
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Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 05:59:58 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear.
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At 01:54 PM 1/12/98 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>>>>>No, the duplicate has Teleportation. For himself. Nothing wrong with
>>>>>that.
>>>>
>>>> I think the original intent was to have the Duplicate's pop in at range
>>>>on his *initial* appearance, not the following Phase.
>>>
>>>Exactly. Duplication linked to Teleportation. When Duplication is
>>>fired, the character also Teleports. SFX, the Duplicate arrives
>>>elsewhere.
>>
>> But duplicate can't have Duplication Linked to Teleportation (or the
>>other way around, which is what I think you meant). The original character
>>has Duplication, while under this proposal the duplicate has Teleportation.
>> AFAIK a Hero entity can't have a Power that's Linked to another entity's.
>
>Actually, it would be like this. I have Duplication, with
>Teleportation linked to Duplication. I summon a duplicate, and
>teleport to the other location simultaneously. SFX, the duplicate
>arrives at a distance.
That *might* work; however:
>Alternately, and needed if the Duplicate is not identical to the
>original (aside from the Teleportation and Duplications), then the
>Duplicate can have Teleportation, Triggered by coming into existence.
This makes much more sense to my mind, even if the Duplicate is
identical to the original. However, it would have to be Limited so that
*only* the activation of the Duplicate could set it off.
>Otherwise, you have a power that is virtually identical to
>teleportation, but because it is created by an Advantage whose Range
>is based upon Active points in the power, it will always be _cheaper_
>than Teleportation.
>
>Look at these figures. For 25 pts., Duplication, 100 pt duplicate,
>Ranged (+1/4). This gives you 125" Teleportation AND Duplication.
>This same Teleportation, without the Duplication, costs 250 pts. TEN
>TIMES CHEAPER.
>
>Not in my campaign, buster.
Did you take into account: 1) Ranged is a +1/2 Advantage. 2) Ranged
still requires an Attack Roll vs the target hex, with Range Modifiers. 3)
That Teleport is Linked to Duplication.
There may be other elements to consider as well; these are just the ones
that came to my attention right off.
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Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:16:26 EST
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> Ground Vehicles:
>Air Conditioning (except motorcycles)
What about a heater for cold climates?
>Cigarette Lighter
According to an article in my local paper's auto section, this one is on
its way out as standard equipment. You can still get one installed for
newer cars, but it might cost more.
Leah
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From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:48:24 -0500
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Leah says:
>>Cigarette Lighter
>this one is on its way out as standard equipment.
But I wouldn't be surprised if they left the jack in, though, since
there are so many device adapters that plug into the lighter jack.
Dave Mattingly
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From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 9:13:47 CST
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> OK, one more question for help regarding The Ultimate Super Vehicle.
> I need help from those who are better informed than I about what
> These are the lists as I currently have them:
>
> Ground Vehicles:
> Air Conditioning (except motorcycles)
> Cigarette Lighter
> Dome Light
> Engine Thermometer
> Fuel Gauge
> Headlights
> Locks for all doors
> Lock for the ignition
> Lock for the trunk
> Odometer
> Radio (AM/FM)
> Seat Belts & Air Bag
> Speedometer
> Turn Signals
> Windshield Wipers
CB radio vs. cellular phone?
For all of this, you might look in a local library for the "Jane's"
series of books for various vehicles.
DonM.
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= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 =
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CC: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
From: Joshua Krage <jkrage@access.digex.net>
Date: 13 Jan 1998 10:15:52 -0500
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Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
> These are the lists as I currently have them:
> Air Vehicles:
> Altimeter
> Beacon Lights
> Climate Control
> Fuel Gauge
> Interior Lights
> Radar (360 degree, non-Discriminatory, non-Targeting)
> Radio (2-way)
> Running Lights
> Seat Belts
All Contemporary Planes:
Choke/Throttle
Attitude Gauge (pitch, roll, yaw)
Transponder
Navigational Radio/Aids (VOR, compass)
various Checklists (takeoff, maintenance, startup, etc)
(manuevering) Yoke, Trim, Flaps, Rudder
Commercial/Big Planes:
Instrument Landing System (ILS)
Hijack Alarm
Public Address System
various hydraulic readouts/controls
more readouts/controls for control sub-systems
more readouts/controls in general :)
Landing Gear
Land-steering wheel
Air braking system (pops up to increase air resistance)
Collision alarm (radar based)
Military:
HUD
Stick instead of Yoke (fighters/bombers)
Encrypted Radio & Transponder
Fancy Navigational and Weapons Computers
Systems hardened against EMP
GPS
IFF (Identify Friend or Foe)
Missile Lock Warning
ECM/ECCM
Mid-Air refueling equipment (both giving and receiving)
> Ground Vehicles:
> Air Conditioning (except motorcycles)
> Cigarette Lighter
> Dome Light
> Engine Thermometer
> Fuel Gauge
> Headlights
> Locks for all doors
> Lock for the ignition
> Lock for the trunk
> Odometer
> Radio (AM/FM)
> Seat Belts & Air Bag
> Speedometer
> Turn Signals
> Windshield Wipers
Normal:
Engine Tachometer (not everywhere)
Motorcycles _do_ exist with A/C, and radio (non-helmet)!
Airbag
Anti-lock brakes
Child locks
Power locks, windows
Sun/Moon roof
Hatchback vs trunk
Trip-ometer (resettable)
Mirrors (rear & side)
Optional Accessories:
Tape Deck
CD Player (including multi-CD systems usually in the trunk)
GPS
HUD (for speed)
Navigational Systems
Internet Access
Mobile phone
Television/VCR/Satellite feed
Jakuzi (limos only)
4-wheel drive
All wheel drive
Rear A/C
> Water Vehicles:
> Fuel Gauge
> Interior Lights
> Lock for the ignition
> Running Lights
> Seat Belts
> Speedometer
Optional:
GPS
Radio
Radar
Fish-locator
Sonar (both low and military grades)
Tachometer
Submarines (both research & military):
Sonar
Air Supply
Periscope
Radio with retrievable buoy antenna
I assume you're going to cover the really exotic stuff elsewhere. :)
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Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
From: Joshua Krage <jkrage@access.digex.net>
Date: 13 Jan 1998 10:27:15 -0500
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Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> writes:
> Leah says:
> >>Cigarette Lighter
> >this one is on its way out as standard equipment.
> But I wouldn't be surprised if they left the jack in, though, since
> there are so many device adapters that plug into the lighter jack.
This is actually what they're doing. My (new) car comes with the
lighter jack, but no lighter. Its just covered by a rubber cap that I
can remove to plug in a CD player or something. If I wanted to get a
lighter, then I would have to special order from the dealer and pay
the big bucks for it.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Bugs
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Date: 13 Jan 1998 10:57:03 -0500
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
BG> and Requires an Attack Roll (-1/2) are also applied.
BG> (The Attack Roll is made when the bug is planted, and does not suffer
BG> penalties for Active Points.)
Since "Requires a Skill Roll" does have active point penalties and is worth
- -1/2, having a similar roll but not having active point penalties should be
worth less of a bonus.
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Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 08:11:12 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
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At 09:16 AM 1/13/98 EST, Leah L Watts wrote:
>
>> Ground Vehicles:
>>Air Conditioning (except motorcycles)
>
>What about a heater for cold climates?
Basically the same function. (I'll make sure that's clear, though.)
>>Cigarette Lighter
>
>According to an article in my local paper's auto section, this one is on
>its way out as standard equipment. You can still get one installed for
>newer cars, but it might cost more.
I think I'll include it on the list for now anyway (because it's used as
an electrical plug for some items), but make a note of that.
---
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:15:17 -0600 (CST)
Subject: TUSV: Boats got seatbelts ?
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>
> Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
> > These are the lists as I currently have them:
>
>
> > Water Vehicles:
> > Fuel Gauge
> > Interior Lights
> > Lock for the ignition
> > Running Lights
> > Seat Belts
> > Speedometer
>
Boats have seatbelts as standard equipment ? TUSV is going to cover
jet ski's and water scooters right ?
Curt
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Subject: Re: STR Cost + 5th Ed. Suggestion
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 98 16:38:19 -0000
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From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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> GURPS had sidebars on every page--but their sidebars were places where
> they threw more discontiguous rules at you. How about having sidebars that
> explain some of the rationale and spirit behind the rules on the same
> page? That way, the rules are all available as reference, without the
> meta-discussion directly in the way, while at the same time, the spirit
> of the law is right there by the letter there for all to see.
Woow hooo. A good use for sidebars. I usually hate them because they are
over used (GURPS) or they are underused (one of the Ultimates). This
would be a VERY good addition to the 5th Ed. IMO.
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Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:51:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
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On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> Ground Vehicles:
> Air Conditioning (except motorcycles)
> Cigarette Lighter
> Dome Light
> Engine Thermometer
> Fuel Gauge
> Headlights
> Locks for all doors
> Lock for the ignition
> Lock for the trunk
> Odometer
> Radio (AM/FM)
> Seat Belts & Air Bag
> Speedometer
> Turn Signals
> Windshield Wipers
>
You may want to mention something about devices that aren't entirely
standard, but are pretty frequent and minor options. It probably
wouldn't be too unbalancing to give tape decks or CD players for no point
cost, though I'd be inclined to charge for a cellular phone.
An 8-track player is probably a physical limitation. 8-<)>
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Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:32:08 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: TUSV:Radically changing vehicle costs...
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When I was using Champions for a space opera game, one thing I noticed was
that humongous battlewagons were far too cheap relative to grav cars, tramp
freighters, and jet belts. Then I found a very reasonable way to balance
this, at the cost (as it were) of making large vehicles very expensive:
Buy all powers (armor, running, flight, life support) with enough area
effect to cover the vehicle. (Or not...buy life support only for the crew
quarters, for example.)
This makes buying a Star Destroyer a LOT more costly, points-wise, than
buying an X-Wing.
Also for TUSV:Crew requirements, with the 'Large Crew' limitation and
'Small Crew' advantage. Possibly even base crew requirements off the active
cost for powers (say, 1 person/20 active points, with adjustments for tech
level, etc?) So that your super-mega-death-cannon, 10d6 KA, needs a crew of
seven to man it? (That's a bit high, actually, so my numbers might be
off...maybe 1 person/40 active points? I dunno. That's why YOU'RE the writer!)
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Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:34:42 -0800
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Re[2]: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
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Bill Svitavsky wrote:
<quote>
You may want to mention something about devices that aren't entirely
standard, but are pretty frequent and minor options. It probably
wouldn't be too unbalancing to give tape decks or CD players for no
point cost, though I'd be inclined to charge for a cellular phone.
</quote>
This is a good point. I don't want to have to buy windshield wipers as
+1d6 HA, AoE one hex, only vs. raindrops. Virtually everything in a
car should just be special effects. Including those "1d6 EB, AoE:cone,
does no stun, does no body, does no KB" headlights that someone
designed awhile back.
Richard
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Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:50:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Duane Morris <duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
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On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> OK, one more question for help regarding The Ultimate Super Vehicle.
> I need help from those who are better informed than I about what
> equipment should be considered "standard" for all vehicles of various
> types. I especially need help with air and water vehicles, since it's been
> several years since I've been aboard either where I could get a clear of
> the controls, and the fershlugginer Britannica doesn't have this
> information (I remember that my old World Book did; I miss it).
> These are the lists as I currently have them:
>
> Air Vehicles:
Don't forget the emergency beacon, and some sort of eidetic memory <the
various black boxes> and a trim indicator.
> Ground Vehicles:
> Air Conditioning (except motorcycles)
<who get it at velocity for free..> (:
Another possibility is a tachometer.
Duane.
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Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:05:18 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
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At 09:50 AM 1/13/98 -0800, Duane Morris wrote:
>On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> Air Vehicles:
>
>Don't forget the emergency beacon, and some sort of eidetic memory <the
>various black boxes> and a trim indicator.
As to the first two, I'm of a mind that these should be paid for, though
they are cheap and it shouldn't be too much of a quibble. On the other
hand, I'm not fully convinced of it.
As to the trim indicator... pardon my ignorance, but what is it?
>> Ground Vehicles:
>> Air Conditioning (except motorcycles)
><who get it at velocity for free..> (:
>
>Another possibility is a tachometer.
I'm not convinced that it's really common enough to be "everyvehicle,"
though at the same time I'm even less convinced that it's useful enough to
not be. I think I'll put it in.
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Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:13:40 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
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At 10:15 AM 1/13/98 -0500, Joshua Krage wrote:
>All Contemporary Planes:
> Choke/Throttle
> Attitude Gauge (pitch, roll, yaw)
> Transponder
I need help identifying what this one is/does....
> Navigational Radio/Aids (VOR, compass)
> various Checklists (takeoff, maintenance, startup, etc)
> (manuevering) Yoke, Trim, Flaps, Rudder
Choke/Throttle and Yoke/Trim/etc. are part of the basic makeup of the
vehicle, and I don't think I could figure out how to make a vehicle pay
points for those cheklists (unless it was through a KS). The rest look fine.
>Commercial/Big Planes:
> Instrument Landing System (ILS)
> Hijack Alarm
> Public Address System
> various hydraulic readouts/controls
> more readouts/controls for control sub-systems
> more readouts/controls in general :)
> Landing Gear
> Land-steering wheel
> Air braking system (pops up to increase air resistance)
> Collision alarm (radar based)
>
>Military:
> HUD
> Stick instead of Yoke (fighters/bombers)
> Encrypted Radio & Transponder
> Fancy Navigational and Weapons Computers
> Systems hardened against EMP
> GPS
> IFF (Identify Friend or Foe)
> Missile Lock Warning
> ECM/ECCM
> Mid-Air refueling equipment (both giving and receiving)
Out of these, most of what isn't part of the basic operation of the
vehicle (like the land-steering wheel) should probably have points paid for
them, however few that may be. I may, in a draft after the first, create
some equipment packages for various uses.
>Normal:
> Engine Tachometer (not everywhere)
> Motorcycles _do_ exist with A/C, and radio (non-helmet)!
> Airbag
> Anti-lock brakes
> Child locks
> Power locks, windows
> Sun/Moon roof
> Hatchback vs trunk
> Trip-ometer (resettable)
> Mirrors (rear & side)
Mostly the same kind of story. Airbag was on the list, tachometer is
being added, and the rest is mostly a matter of construction.
>> Water Vehicles:
>Submarines (both research & military):
> Sonar
> Air Supply
> Periscope
> Radio with retrievable buoy antenna
Again, these are things that should probably be paid for with points....
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Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:52:40 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Bugs
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At 10:57 AM 1/13/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>
>BG> and Requires an Attack Roll (-1/2) are also applied.
>BG> (The Attack Roll is made when the bug is planted, and does not suffer
>BG> penalties for Active Points.)
>
>Since "Requires a Skill Roll" does have active point penalties and is worth
>- -1/2, having a similar roll but not having active point penalties should be
>worth less of a bonus.
It doesn't have Active Point penalties, but does suffer from a Range
Modifier when performed at range, can be Dodged, and may be subject to
other penalties that a straight Required Skill Roll wouldn't suffer.
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Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:54:15 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Boats got seatbelts ?
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At 10:15 AM 1/13/98 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote:
>> Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>> > These are the lists as I currently have them:
>> > Water Vehicles:
>> > Fuel Gauge
>> > Interior Lights
>> > Lock for the ignition
>> > Running Lights
>> > Seat Belts
>> > Speedometer
>
>Boats have seatbelts as standard equipment ? TUSV is going to cover
>jet ski's and water scooters right ?
Answering the questions in order: oops, I don't think they do; and yes.
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Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:56:00 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
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At 11:51 AM 1/13/98 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>You may want to mention something about devices that aren't entirely
>standard, but are pretty frequent and minor options. It probably
>wouldn't be too unbalancing to give tape decks or CD players for no point
>cost, though I'd be inclined to charge for a cellular phone.
The "minor" equipment you're talking about really is minor. As I have
it now, there will be a point cost for these "optional extras," but most of
the constructs (such as the examples you give) will be 1 point, or
occasionally 2.
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Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:20:06 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV:Radically changing vehicle costs...
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At 09:32 AM 1/13/98 -0800, Lizard wrote:
>When I was using Champions for a space opera game, one thing I noticed was
>that humongous battlewagons were far too cheap relative to grav cars, tramp
>freighters, and jet belts. Then I found a very reasonable way to balance
>this, at the cost (as it were) of making large vehicles very expensive:
>
>Buy all powers (armor, running, flight, life support) with enough area
>effect to cover the vehicle. (Or not...buy life support only for the crew
>quarters, for example.)
>
>This makes buying a Star Destroyer a LOT more costly, points-wise, than
>buying an X-Wing.
It's also a bit much, especially considering that in most campaigns the
vehicles battling each other would be comparable in size and class.
There's also the rule (mostly new) that an organization can buy 2X the
number of an identical class of vehicle for +5 points. So if the Star
Destroyer is built on 500 base points and the X-Wings are built on 200
each, that Star Destroyer had better be comparable to... well, *lots and
lots* of X-Wings! (Though this balances out partially, because any given
X-Wing can only do so much damage.)
>Also for TUSV:Crew requirements, with the 'Large Crew' limitation and
>'Small Crew' advantage. Possibly even base crew requirements off the active
>cost for powers (say, 1 person/20 active points, with adjustments for tech
>level, etc?) So that your super-mega-death-cannon, 10d6 KA, needs a crew of
>seven to man it? (That's a bit high, actually, so my numbers might be
>off...maybe 1 person/40 active points? I dunno. That's why YOU'RE the
writer!)
The basic crew for a vehicle is one person, who must have the proper
class of Vehicle Familiarity; a Crew Disadvantage is built from there. 2X
required Crew is +5 points; 3X points in required Skills is +5 points. I
also have other modifiers for how well the Vehicle runs with a skeleton crew.
As for number of people required to operate a single device,
multi-person firing crews were (IIRC) introduced in the VIPER sourcebook,
which gives a -1 Limitation for "Two-Man Firing Crew." I'd be for giving
an additional -1/2 for each additional person in the required firing crew.
However, as a matter of taste, I'd make it a Limitation of the weapon, not
part of a Disadvantage (YMMV).
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Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:03:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Explosives
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Len Carpenter writes:
<some stuff zapped>
> Another quibble with the official table: Many have questioned whether
> firearms in the game do unrealistically low damage amounts. To me, this
> pales in comparison to the problem of the wimpy damage done by high
> explosives. 5d6 EX with a dynamite stick? You couldn't K.O. Sugar Ray
> Leonard with one of those.
A stick of dynamite a meter away (same hex) probably _isn't_ all that deadly.
>
> Here's my approach. The explosion of one gram of TNT releases about 1
> kilocalorie of energy (1 kcal = 4,187 joules). C-4 explosive is 1.34
> times as effective as TNT. Exploding one gram of nitroglycerine releases
> about 6,300 joules, but it's nastier to work with than TNT.
>
> Assuming that 1 DC is about 50 joules with a doubling of energy for every
> additional DC, that puts one gram of TNT at about 7d6 damage, provided the
> character takes the full brunt of the blast.
That assumption is really only valid for bullets. On the one hand, a STR 13
guy with a broadsword (1d+1) is _not_ swinging the sword for 400 joules, he
probably isn't even swinging it for 200 joules. This is even more notable for
punches and kicks, even someone pretty strong and trained in martial arts isn't
going to be hitting for a lot over 100 joules. OTOH, a tablespoon of boiling
water will deliver around 3000 joules of thermal energy into you if you pour it
over your hand, and that isn't a 7d6 energy blast ;). DCs don't measure heat,
they measure destructive ability.
> So that 1 gm of TNT exploding in the open has an effective blast energy of
> just 4,200/5 = 800 joules directed at any single nearby target, for a 5d6
> EX. 500 gm (or 1 lb.) would do 14d6 EX, 1 kg 15d6, 1 ton 25d6, 1 kiloton
> 35d6, and 1 megaton 45d6.
Let's reality-check these numbers. One gram of TNT is roughly equivalent to
the propellant charge behind a .30 caliber rifle; actually, I think it is a bit
less. Therefore, if we just take a blank .30 cartridge and set it off in open
air, it will do 5d6 to someone a meter away. Hm...I think not. Thus, let's
fix some numbers.
1) A human of fairly typical proportions actually will be hit by about 3% of
the force of the shockwave at one meter (that 1/5 rule has to do with somewhat
different issues). For 1/4 kilo of TNT (1 stick dynamite) this works out to
around 30,000 joules.
2) Shockwaves aren't actually all that efficient at delivering energy into
someone; figure its roughly equivalent to hitting water. A three meter fall
into water is fairly painful if you hit badly, quite possibly capable of
stunning an average person, so calling this 3d6N or 4d6N is about right. For
an 80 kilogram man this is around 2400 joules. 30,000 joules is about +3.5
damage classes relative to this, so calling a stick of dynamite 7d6N sounds
about right, which is about 6d6 less than your numbers. I think I've usually
set a kilo of high explosives at 10d6N, which is slightly higher, but 15d6 is
quite a bit out of line.
> To get even more realistic with explosives, the damage dice should not
> drop off as rapidly as with the basic Explosion Advantage. For persons in
> the open, the minimum safe distance in meters is 100 * the cube-root of
> the weight of the TNT in pounds. So for just 1 pound, this recommended
> distance is 100 meters. For 500 pounds, 800 meters. Treating explosives
> as dropping of by -1 DC per 3" or 4" distance gives a more threateningly
> realistic blast radius.
Hm...this definition sounds like 'distance at which you cannot possibly be
hurt, even if you get really really unlucky'. My traditional answer to area
effect for explosions was -1/hex out to 4 hexes, and beyond that use (-4 +
range penalty). This is actually a bit off, due to the way shockwaves
propagate in air; its closer to -3d6 per doubling in range than -2d6.
> Fragmentation bombs involve something more. They do damage both from the
> concussive blast of the charge and from the fragments or shrapnel sent
> flying at great speed. I would treat that as an autofire RKA explosion
> linked to the explosive charge, to represent the multiple fragments that
> may strike every target within the blast radius. Typical fragmentation
> grenades might be a 10d6 or 11d6 EX, -1 DC per 3," with a 1-1/2d6 or 2d6
> autofire RKA EX, -1 DC per 2", linked to it.
Shrapnel generally has lower penetration than a pistol round. Try 1d6, but
instead of reducing damage with range, give shrapnel an activation roll (maybe
about 14- at 1 meter) which is reduced by range.
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Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:03:30 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
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> You may want to mention something about devices that aren't entirely
> standard, but are pretty frequent and minor options. It probably
> wouldn't be too unbalancing to give tape decks or CD players for no point
> cost, though I'd be inclined to charge for a cellular phone.
Hmm. I allow them for free for characters, so I don't see why I'd
charge for vehicles.
-Tim Gilberg
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From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:45:54 CST
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Oh - don't forget about "extra speakers" (sound images, or a cosmetic
change enviornment) - a guy we used to game with liked mounting extra
speakers on his battle suits and going into combat with the theme from
2001 playing LOUDLY.
Fortunately, the GM made him the target of much of the opposition, on
the grounds of good taste. Still, for the bad guy who wants to color
his vehicle with the confederate flag and play that horn thing from
"the Dukes of Hazzard"...
DonM.
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Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:20:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Duane Morris <duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
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On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 09:50 AM 1/13/98 -0800, Duane Morris wrote:
> >On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >> Air Vehicles:
> >
> >Don't forget the emergency beacon, and some sort of eidetic memory <the
> >various black boxes> and a trim indicator.
>
> As to the first two, I'm of a mind that these should be paid for, though
> they are cheap and it shouldn't be too much of a quibble. On the other
> hand, I'm not fully convinced of it.
Well, AFAIK the emergency beacon is something that is required on all
aircraft, but then I could be wrong.. (:
> As to the trim indicator... pardon my ignorance, but what is it?
I think I got the terminology right, but what I was refering to was an
indicator of the angle between the wing position and horizontal <I forget
if that is yaw, roll or pitch..> (:
Duane.
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:27:28 EST
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< I need help from those who are better informed than I about what equipment
should be considered "standard" for all vehicles of various types. >>
<< Air Vehicles: >>
<< Radar (360 degree, non-Discriminatory, non-Targeting) >>
360 degree radar is not, I don't believe, standard on all aircraft. For
starters, there are a few small planes that do not have radar. Those aside,
the radar I'm thinking of (such as on airliners and fighters) is directional;
the coverage can be altered (e.g., 60 degree cone to 180 degree front, etc.)
but I don't think it has 360 coverage. That's a mighty powerful radar blowin'
through the pilot, mate! ;) True, certain aircraft, like the AWACS and the
Orion, would have 360 degree radar, but this wouldn't be "EveryVeh" equipment,
IMO.
<< Ground Vehicles:>>
<< Air Conditioning (except motorcycles) >>
This may sound really nitpicky, but I wouldn't list AC as EV equipment for
ground vehicles. For one thing, it's not part of most "stock" cars as they
roll off the line (i.e., it costs more to buy one with AC <G>). Consider,
also, the older tanks, dragsters, and the like. No AC in them...
<< Cigarette Lighter >>
My car didn't have a cig lighter in it, and neither did my Hummvee in Desert
Storm. ;) Not EV equipment, IMO.
<< Dome Light >>
Ditto. No dome lights in dragsters, hummers...
<< Engine Thermometer >>
Thermostat
<< Locks for all doors / Lock for the ignition / Lock for the trunk >>
FYI; the military version hummer has none of these.
<< Radio (AM/FM) >>
Plenty of ground vehicles have no radio. If they want it, let them buy it.
;)
<< Seat Belts & Air Bag >>
A hummer with airbags would be nice... Even the manufacturers are making
airbags optional now. ;) Not worth making it EV equipment, IMO.
Mark @ GRG
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From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Fifth Edition (idea we can ALL help with)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:38:02 CST
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OK:
I'd like to make a suggestion that I think all of us can work on.
Let's take the existing edition of the rules, and build a set of
examples for each power, and fit into them the more "difficult to
understand" constructions. This includes examples of contradicting
intrepretations, so we'd have (at least) two examples of linked,
for example.
DonM.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Explosives
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "AJ" == Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> writes:
AJ> Therefore, if we just take a blank .30 cartridge and set it off in open
AJ> air, it will do 5d6 to someone a meter away. Hm...I think not.
Um... I suggest you go talk to Brandon Lee about that comment. Oh, wait,
he's dead due to a blank fired at almost point-blank range into his head.
Admittedly, the range was probably a bit closer, but the shell in question
was less powerful.
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From: Miq Millman <miq@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Explosives
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:04:07 -0800 (PST)
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Stainless Steel Rat says:
> AJ> air, it will do 5d6 to someone a meter away. Hm...I think not.
>
> Um... I suggest you go talk to Brandon Lee about that comment. Oh, wait,
> he's dead due to a blank fired at almost point-blank range into his head.
> Admittedly, the range was probably a bit closer, but the shell in question
> was less powerful.
Actually, Brandon Lee was killed from a stomace wound. He was hit by a
slug that was part of a "show round", a lead bullet attached to an empty
case with no powder or detonator. The slug caught in the chamber of the
pistol when it was being unloaded and blanks were inserted. So instead of
a "harmless" blank, the pistol now had a lead slug infront of a live
cartridge. Pretty similar to a black powder gun, which is rather deadly.
The blank in the temple fellow, was a different actor and happened a number
of years ago. I can't recall the fellow's name, but he played Boz or Bog
on that time traveling show with the kid and the nifty pocket watch.
One of my wife's friends was/is married to the prop-master from the Crow
movie, so I know about the incident sort of first hand.
--
__
Miq Millman miq@teleport.com
Tualatin, OR
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Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:46:18 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
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At 05:27 PM 1/13/98 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< I need help from those who are better informed than I about what equipment
>should be considered "standard" for all vehicles of various types. >>
><< Air Vehicles: >>
><< Radar (360 degree, non-Discriminatory, non-Targeting) >>
>
> 360 degree radar is not, I don't believe, standard on all aircraft. For
>starters, there are a few small planes that do not have radar. Those aside,
>the radar I'm thinking of (such as on airliners and fighters) is directional;
>the coverage can be altered (e.g., 60 degree cone to 180 degree front, etc.)
>but I don't think it has 360 coverage. That's a mighty powerful radar blowin'
>through the pilot, mate! ;) True, certain aircraft, like the AWACS and the
>Orion, would have 360 degree radar, but this wouldn't be "EveryVeh"
equipment,
>IMO.
Okay, I'll scratch the 360 degree (I was visualizing the control tower
screens anyway); a Physical Limitation can be taken for not having it.
Or do you think this should be a "pay the points" thing?
><< Ground Vehicles:>>
><< Air Conditioning (except motorcycles) >>
>
> This may sound really nitpicky, but I wouldn't list AC as EV equipment for
>ground vehicles. For one thing, it's not part of most "stock" cars as they
>roll off the line (i.e., it costs more to buy one with AC <G>). Consider,
>also, the older tanks, dragsters, and the like. No AC in them...
It's just common enough that I think I'd include it as the standard.
Those that don't have it can, as above, get points back.
><< Cigarette Lighter >>
>
> My car didn't have a cig lighter in it, and neither did my Hummvee in
Desert
>Storm. ;) Not EV equipment, IMO.
>
><< Dome Light >>
>
> Ditto. No dome lights in dragsters, hummers...
Ditto my above comment for both.
><< Engine Thermometer >>
>
> Thermostat
Thermo*stat*? Maybe I gotta check my dictionary, but that seems kinda
odd....
><< Locks for all doors / Lock for the ignition / Lock for the trunk >>
>
> FYI; the military version hummer has none of these.
>
><< Radio (AM/FM) >>
>
> Plenty of ground vehicles have no radio. If they want it, let them buy it.
>;)
On these two, echo my above sentiment.
><< Seat Belts & Air Bag >>
>
> A hummer with airbags would be nice... Even the manufacturers are making
>airbags optional now. ;) Not worth making it EV equipment, IMO.
Yeah, you're right here; they're uncommon enough that I think I'll
strike the bags and let them be a "pay the points" item. (Then I gotta
figure out how to build them... I'm thinking of a Limited sort of Knockback
Resistance.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org>
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG>
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 00:39:44 +0000
Subject: Re: Meta-Hero
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 52
So Sayeth Opal <Opal@october.com&>
> s > Its a supplement called Meta-Hero, and is an explanation of
> s > Rules work. (Not, you note, how the system works, but how the rules
> s > system work.) The intent is to boil the entire system down to a bare
> s > meta-rules and meta-mechanics from which the entire rules system was
> s > together. This would:
> Sounds interesting...
> s > 1) show up all of the current inconsistencies in the rules
> s > 2) show what logical gaps exist in the rules
> s > 3) give guidelines for fixing 1) and filling 2)
> s > 4) give one a set of guidelines for extending the
> s > rules with new abilities
> s > and powers, while making sure that these additions were in harmony.
> s >
>
> You realize that you're basicly reverse-engineering George McDonalds
> brain, right. :) :)
Yeah, I guess so. Actually, so a certain extent I'm reverse engineering the
team that did the 4th edition rules. They were the first set of rules that I
thought were consistant enough to make reverse engineering worth-while.
> s > As such, I'm finding a number of discussions on this list,
> s > STR costs, the Incomplete Character rules, and the nuances
> s > be very interesting and relevant to the project. And, of course, the
> s > of how to interpret things like Damage Classes and rolled body is
> s > (BTW, I know there isn't much of a market for such a thing, but I
> s > analysis will greatly help my own worldbuilding efforts,
> s > since I so often have
> s > to tweak rules to get the results I want.)
>
> Yep, that's a suplement that would sepparate the casual role-players
> from the complete fanatics....
'Fraid so. I personally know about 5 people who would buy one, out of a pool of
some 15 to 20 gamers.
> I'd love to see it. :)
>
> Seriously, if you ever make serious progress on it, send it to me,
> I'd be happy to give you some imput. If you ever finish it, be
> sure to put it on the web (if you don't have a page we could U/L
> it to Red October).
I do have a web-site, but it currently sucks. When I've got it cleaned up, it
should have a gaming section where I'll eventually publish the Meta-hero stuff.
When that happens I'll be sure to post the URL to this list. After all, where
else am I going to find a bunch of fanatics to help me proof the thing?
--
Stirling Westrup | Use of the Internet by this poster
sti@cam.org | is not to be construed as a tacit
| endorsement of Western Technological
| Civilization or its appurtenances.
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Fifth Edition (idea we can ALL help with)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:45:39 -0600
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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-----Original Message-----
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 4:48 PM
Subject: Fifth Edition (idea we can ALL help with)
>OK:
>
>I'd like to make a suggestion that I think all of us can work on.
>Let's take the existing edition of the rules, and build a set of
>examples for each power, and fit into them the more "difficult to
>understand" constructions. This includes examples of contradicting
>intrepretations, so we'd have (at least) two examples of linked,
>for example.
This isn't a bad idea. Why don't we try making a few ECs and MP combinations
to simulate comun sets of powers that require them (weather control for
example) and let people vote on the best results. Just and idea.
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Reply-To: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com>
From: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com>
Subject: Using TUSM
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 21:05:21 -0500
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I'd like to know how people have adapted the information in The Ultimate
Super Mage into their campaigns, especially those who don't run their games
in the Champions Universe.
I'm interested not only in the different magic styles, but also the
dimension information.
Lisa Hartjes
beren@unforgettable.com
Home: http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/daniken/79
"You met these things before. What did you do?"
<said with a grin>"I died."
(Alien Resurrection)
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org>
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG>
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 02:09:52 +0000
Subject: Re: more thoughts on bleeding
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 58
So Sayeth Stephen McGinness <smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk&>
> At 06:23 PM 6/1/98 -0800, mcallahan@com.home wrote:
> >The revised bleeding numbers are
> >1d6 bleeding stops on a 1
> >2d6 bleeding stops on a 2-3
> >3d6 bleeding stops on a 3-5
> >4d6 bleeding stops on a 4-7
> >5d6 bleeding stops on a 5-9
> >6d6 bleeding stops on a 6-11
>
> This is seductive, I want to do a probability check on these numbers but
> haven't really got the time to do it properly. As far as I can see just now
> there is an decreasing probability of stopping bleeding, is this what you want??
>
> For 1d6 you have a 1 in 6 chance to stop bleeding (~17%)
> For 2d6 you have a 1 in 12 chance to stop bleeding (8.5%)
> For 3d6 you have a 1 in 36 chance to stop bleeding (~3%)
In case folks find it useful, I calculated an <N>D6 probability table for N
from 1 to 12 a few years ago. Here it is:
CUMULATIVE DICE PROBABILITIES TO 4 DECIMAL PLACES
-------------------------------------------------
DICE ROLL PROB. DICE ROLL PROB. DICE ROLL PROB.
---- ----- ------ ---- ----- ------ ---- ----- ------
1D6 1 0.1667 8D6 8 0.0000 11D6 11 0.0000
1D6 1- 2 0.3333 8D6 8- 9 0.0000 11D6 11-12 0.0000
1D6 1- 3 0.5000 8D6 8-10 0.0000 11D6 11-13 0.0000
1D6 1- 4 0.6667 8D6 8-11 0.0001 11D6 11-14 0.0000
1D6 1- 5 0.8333 8D6 8-12 0.0003 11D6 11-15 0.0000
1D6 1- 6 1.0000 8D6 8-13 0.0008 11D6 11-16 0.0000
8D6 8-14 0.0018 11D6 11-17 0.0000
2D6 2 0.0278 8D6 8-15 0.0038 11D6 11-18 0.0001
2D6 2- 3 0.0833 8D6 8-16 0.0074 11D6 11-19 0.0002
2D6 2- 4 0.1667 8D6 8-17 0.0137 11D6 11-20 0.0005
2D6 2- 5 0.2778 8D6 8-18 0.0237 11D6 11-21 0.0009
2D6 2- 6 0.4167 8D6 8-19 0.0389 11D6 11-22 0.0018
2D6 2- 7 0.5833 8D6 8-20 0.0607 11D6 11-23 0.0034
2D6 2- 8 0.7222 8D6 8-21 0.0907 11D6 11-24 0.0059
2D6 2- 9 0.8333 8D6 8-22 0.1298 11D6 11-25 0.0100
2D6 2-10 0.9167 8D6 8-23 0.1789 11D6 11-26 0.0163
2D6 2-11 0.9722 8D6 8-24 0.2377 11D6 11-27 0.0254
2D6 2-12 1.0000 8D6 8-25 0.3054 11D6 11-28 0.0385
8D6 8-26 0.3802 11D6 11-29 0.0562
3D6 3 0.0046 8D6 8-27 0.4595 11D6 11-30 0.0797
3D6 3- 4 0.0185 8D6 8-28 0.5405 11D6 11-31 0.1097
3D6 3- 5 0.0463 8D6 8-29 0.6198 11D6 11-32 0.1467
3D6 3- 6 0.0926 8D6 8-30 0.6946 11D6 11-33 0.1910
3D6 3- 7 0.1620 8D6 8-31 0.7623 11D6 11-34 0.2424
3D6 3- 8 0.2593 8D6 8-32 0.8211 11D6 11-35 0.3004
3D6 3- 9 0.3750 8D6 8-33 0.8702 11D6 11-36 0.3637
3D6 3-10 0.5000 8D6 8-34 0.9093 11D6 11-37 0.4308
3D6 3-11 0.6250 8D6 8-35 0.9393 11D6 11-38 0.5000
3D6 3-12 0.7407 8D6 8-36 0.9611 11D6 11-39 0.5692
3D6 3-13 0.8380 8D6 8-37 0.9763 11D6 11-40 0.6363
3D6 3-14 0.9074 8D6 8-38 0.9863 11D6 11-41 0.6996
3D6 3-15 0.9537 8D6 8-39 0.9926 11D6 11-42 0.7576
3D6 3-16 0.9815 8D6 8-40 0.9962 11D6 11-43 0.8090
3D6 3-17 0.9954 8D6 8-41 0.9982 11D6 11-44 0.8533
3D6 3-18 1.0000 8D6 8-42 0.9992 11D6 11-45 0.8903
8D6 8-43 0.9997 11D6 11-46 0.9203
4D6 4 0.0008 8D6 8-44 0.9999 11D6 11-47 0.9438
4D6 4- 5 0.0039 8D6 8-45 1.0000 11D6 11-48 0.9615
4D6 4- 6 0.0116 8D6 8-46 1.0000 11D6 11-49 0.9746
4D6 4- 7 0.0270 8D6 8-47 1.0000 11D6 11-50 0.9837
4D6 4- 8 0.0540 8D6 8-48 1.0000 11D6 11-51 0.9900
4D6 4- 9 0.0972 11D6 11-52 0.9941
4D6 4-10 0.1590 9D6 9 0.0000 11D6 11-53 0.9966
4D6 4-11 0.2392 9D6 9-10 0.0000 11D6 11-54 0.9982
4D6 4-12 0.3356 9D6 9-11 0.0000 11D6 11-55 0.9991
4D6 4-13 0.4437 9D6 9-12 0.0000 11D6 11-56 0.9995
4D6 4-14 0.5563 9D6 9-13 0.0001 11D6 11-57 0.9998
4D6 4-15 0.6644 9D6 9-14 0.0002 11D6 11-58 0.9999
4D6 4-16 0.7608 9D6 9-15 0.0005 11D6 11-59 1.0000
4D6 4-17 0.8410 9D6 9-16 0.0011 11D6 11-60 1.0000
4D6 4-18 0.9028 9D6 9-17 0.0024 11D6 11-61 1.0000
4D6 4-19 0.9460 9D6 9-18 0.0046 11D6 11-62 1.0000
4D6 4-20 0.9730 9D6 9-19 0.0085 11D6 11-63 1.0000
4D6 4-21 0.9884 9D6 9-20 0.0149 11D6 11-64 1.0000
4D6 4-22 0.9961 9D6 9-21 0.0247 11D6 11-65 1.0000
4D6 4-23 0.9992 9D6 9-22 0.0392 11D6 11-66 1.0000
4D6 4-24 1.0000 9D6 9-23 0.0596
9D6 9-24 0.0871 12D6 12 0.0000
5D6 5 0.0001 9D6 9-25 0.1228 12D6 12-13 0.0000
5D6 5- 6 0.0008 9D6 9-26 0.1672 12D6 12-14 0.0000
5D6 5- 7 0.0027 9D6 9-27 0.2204 12D6 12-15 0.0000
5D6 5- 8 0.0072 9D6 9-28 0.2819 12D6 12-16 0.0000
5D6 5- 9 0.0162 9D6 9-29 0.3504 12D6 12-17 0.0000
5D6 5-10 0.0324 9D6 9-30 0.4239 12D6 12-18 0.0000
5D6 5-11 0.0588 9D6 9-31 0.5000 12D6 12-19 0.0000
5D6 5-12 0.0980 9D6 9-32 0.5761 12D6 12-20 0.0001
5D6 5-13 0.1520 9D6 9-33 0.6496 12D6 12-21 0.0001
5D6 5-14 0.2215 9D6 9-34 0.7181 12D6 12-22 0.0003
5D6 5-15 0.3052 9D6 9-35 0.7796 12D6 12-23 0.0006
5D6 5-16 0.3997 9D6 9-36 0.8328 12D6 12-24 0.0011
5D6 5-17 0.5000 9D6 9-37 0.8772 12D6 12-25 0.0021
5D6 5-18 0.6003 9D6 9-38 0.9129 12D6 12-26 0.0037
5D6 5-19 0.6948 9D6 9-39 0.9404 12D6 12-27 0.0064
5D6 5-20 0.7785 9D6 9-40 0.9608 12D6 12-28 0.0105
5D6 5-21 0.8480 9D6 9-41 0.9753 12D6 12-29 0.0166
5D6 5-22 0.9020 9D6 9-42 0.9851 12D6 12-30 0.0254
5D6 5-23 0.9412 9D6 9-43 0.9915 12D6 12-31 0.0377
5D6 5-24 0.9676 9D6 9-44 0.9954 12D6 12-32 0.0543
5D6 5-25 0.9838 9D6 9-45 0.9976 12D6 12-33 0.0760
5D6 5-26 0.9928 9D6 9-46 0.9989 12D6 12-34 0.1036
5D6 5-27 0.9973 9D6 9-47 0.9995 12D6 12-35 0.1376
5D6 5-28 0.9992 9D6 9-48 0.9998 12D6 12-36 0.1783
5D6 5-29 0.9999 9D6 9-49 0.9999 12D6 12-37 0.2256
5D6 5-30 1.0000 9D6 9-50 1.0000 12D6 12-38 0.2792
9D6 9-51 1.0000 12D6 12-39 0.3381
6D6 6 0.0000 9D6 9-52 1.0000 12D6 12-40 0.4011
6D6 6- 7 0.0002 9D6 9-53 1.0000 12D6 12-41 0.4667
6D6 6- 8 0.0006 9D6 9-54 1.0000 12D6 12-42 0.5333
6D6 6- 9 0.0018 12D6 12-43 0.5989
6D6 6-10 0.0045 10D6 10 0.0000 12D6 12-44 0.6619
6D6 6-11 0.0099 10D6 10-11 0.0000 12D6 12-45 0.7208
6D6 6-12 0.0197 10D6 10-12 0.0000 12D6 12-46 0.7744
6D6 6-13 0.0359 10D6 10-13 0.0000 12D6 12-47 0.8217
6D6 6-14 0.0608 10D6 10-14 0.0000 12D6 12-48 0.8624
6D6 6-15 0.0965 10D6 10-15 0.0000 12D6 12-49 0.8964
6D6 6-16 0.1446 10D6 10-16 0.0001 12D6 12-50 0.9240
6D6 6-17 0.2058 10D6 10-17 0.0003 12D6 12-51 0.9457
6D6 6-18 0.2794 10D6 10-18 0.0007 12D6 12-52 0.9623
6D6 6-19 0.3631 10D6 10-19 0.0015 12D6 12-53 0.9746
6D6 6-20 0.4536 10D6 10-20 0.0029 12D6 12-54 0.9834
6D6 6-21 0.5464 10D6 10-21 0.0053 12D6 12-55 0.9895
6D6 6-22 0.6369 10D6 10-22 0.0094 12D6 12-56 0.9936
6D6 6-23 0.7206 10D6 10-23 0.0157 12D6 12-57 0.9963
6D6 6-24 0.7942 10D6 10-24 0.0252 12D6 12-58 0.9979
6D6 6-25 0.8554 10D6 10-25 0.0390 12D6 12-59 0.9989
6D6 6-26 0.9035 10D6 10-26 0.0580 12D6 12-60 0.9994
6D6 6-27 0.9392 10D6 10-27 0.0834 12D6 12-61 0.9997
6D6 6-28 0.9641 10D6 10-28 0.1160 12D6 12-62 0.9999
6D6 6-29 0.9803 10D6 10-29 0.1565 12D6 12-63 0.9999
6D6 6-30 0.9901 10D6 10-30 0.2050 12D6 12-64 1.0000
6D6 6-31 0.9955 10D6 10-31 0.2611 12D6 12-65 1.0000
6D6 6-32 0.9982 10D6 10-32 0.3240 12D6 12-66 1.0000
6D6 6-33 0.9994 10D6 10-33 0.3921 12D6 12-67 1.0000
6D6 6-34 0.9998 10D6 10-34 0.4637 12D6 12-68 1.0000
6D6 6-35 1.0000 10D6 10-35 0.5363 12D6 12-69 1.0000
6D6 6-36 1.0000 10D6 10-36 0.6079 12D6 12-70 1.0000
10D6 10-37 0.6760 12D6 12-71 1.0000
7D6 7 0.0000 10D6 10-38 0.7389 12D6 12-72 1.0000
7D6 7- 8 0.0000 10D6 10-39 0.7950
7D6 7- 9 0.0001 10D6 10-40 0.8435
7D6 7-10 0.0004 10D6 10-41 0.8840
7D6 7-11 0.0012 10D6 10-42 0.9166
7D6 7-12 0.0028 10D6 10-43 0.9420
7D6 7-13 0.0061 10D6 10-44 0.9610
7D6 7-14 0.0121 10D6 10-45 0.9748
7D6 7-15 0.0221 10D6 10-46 0.9843
7D6 7-16 0.0379 10D6 10-47 0.9906
7D6 7-17 0.0612 10D6 10-48 0.9947
7D6 7-18 0.0939 10D6 10-49 0.9971
7D6 7-19 0.1372 10D6 10-50 0.9985
7D6 7-20 0.1917 10D6 10-51 0.9993
7D6 7-21 0.2572 10D6 10-52 0.9997
7D6 7-22 0.3322 10D6 10-53 0.9999
7D6 7-23 0.4142 10D6 10-54 1.0000
7D6 7-24 0.5000 10D6 10-55 1.0000
7D6 7-25 0.5858 10D6 10-56 1.0000
7D6 7-26 0.6678 10D6 10-57 1.0000
7D6 7-27 0.7428 10D6 10-58 1.0000
7D6 7-28 0.8083 10D6 10-59 1.0000
7D6 7-29 0.8628 10D6 10-60 1.0000
7D6 7-30 0.9061
7D6 7-31 0.9388
7D6 7-32 0.9621
7D6 7-33 0.9779
7D6 7-34 0.9879
7D6 7-35 0.9939
7D6 7-36 0.9972
7D6 7-37 0.9988
7D6 7-38 0.9996
7D6 7-39 0.9999
7D6 7-40 1.0000
7D6 7-41 1.0000
7D6 7-42 1.0000
--
Stirling Westrup | Use of the Internet by this poster
sti@cam.org | is not to be construed as a tacit
| endorsement of Western Technological
| Civilization or its appurtenances.
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org>
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG>
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 02:24:25 +0000
Subject: Re: A Sample Character
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 60
So Sayeth Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com&>
> >By the way, Bruce Lee was an 18/4 human being (or at least he looked it on
> >screen).
>
> I'd call him more like 23/6.
> I saw him on the Mike Douglas Show when he was first bringing movies to
> the United States, shortly before the Green Hornet. After a clip of some
> martial arts fighting where he held off a ring of about 12 guys, Mike asked
> him if he was sped up for the camera; Bruce said that the producers usually
> had to slow him down to make it look realistic.
> Just a minor anecdote....
I have an aquaintance who is a martial artist and a martial arts choreagrapher
for the movies. (He claims, BTW that the two fields have almost nothing in
common). He's told me that ALL fight scenes take place at about 1/4 realistic
speed, since the average audience does not have the training to watch and
understand faster fights. A 'fast' character will sometimes go as high
as 1/2 speed to emphasize how fast he is. In shakespeares day, apparantly, most
of the audience was expected to know how to fence, or at least would know
enough of the salient points to watch a sword fight at close to normal speed.
So, its hardly surprising that Bruce Lee had to go slow in the movies...
OB HEROSYS:
IMHO the reason that no one uses the 'standard' 2 speed for normals is that the
next speed increment gives 1.5 times the number of attacks. That is a
sufficiently huge disad in Hero Sys that no one wants it. If the formula for
speed was something like 3+(Dex/10), with a human max of 6, then a marginally
faster character would have 1.2 times the attacks per turn, and a marginally
slower-than-average character would be livable. Far fewer characters would then
spend the points for an extra 4 levels of speed.
--
Stirling Westrup | Use of the Internet by this poster
sti@cam.org | is not to be construed as a tacit
| endorsement of Western Technological
| Civilization or its appurtenances.
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:10:54 -0800
From: mcallahan <mcallahan@home.com>
Reply-To: mcallahan@home.com
Subject: Re: Explosives
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 36
>Um... I suggest you go talk to Brandon Lee about that comment. Oh, wait,
>he's dead due to a blank fired at almost point-blank range into his head.
>Admittedly, the range was probably a bit closer, but the shell in question
>was less powerful.
No, Brandon Lee is dead because of the following complex chain of
events.
1. Movie director wants a sceen where the camera can film down the
barrel of the gun and see the bullet.
2. prop guy takes a live bullet and removes the slug, dumps the powder
and remounts the bullet.
3. actor pulls the trigger, the primer charge (the one at the back of
the shell that ignites the powder) pushes the bullet into the barrel of
the gun (but not out of the barrel)
4. the gun is loaded with blank shells (not low power blanks, but real
bullets that have had the slug revoved and the case sealed with cardbord
(because it was cheeper than buying "real" blanks).
5 the gun was fired again, the charge of the blank propelling the first
slug into Brandon Lee.
John Eric Hexsum (not sure of the spelling on that) was killed by a
blank round, he was fooling around on set put the barrel of the gun to
his head and pulled the trigger.
At point plank range the ENTIRE force of the explosion was applied to
his head.
As distance from the explosion doubles the force of the explosion that
impacts an object is reduced by its cube root. At one meter the force of
a blank round going off is roughly compareable to a strong breeze,
unless you get hit by the cardboard being propelled by the explosion you
will barely feel it (and the cardboard wouln't cdo that much damage
because its mass to surface area is so low it will rapidly lose velocity
to air resistance.
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:19:07 -0500 (EST)
From: John Fabian Ceballos <ceballos@eecs.umich.edu>
cc: John EDS email <John_Ceballos@xn.xerox.com>
Subject: subscribe
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Please put me back on this list. Thanks!
--
John Fabian Ceballos
ceballos@eecs.umich.edu
http://www.eecs.umich.edu/~ceballos
PGP fingerprint: 5D D1 50 7E 0B C7 BA 5A A3 5B 60 F4 6A 1A 25 04
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 13 Jan 98 19:55:00 -0800
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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> From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
> > In fact, there ARE Adjustment Power effects that are canon by the
> >BBB. I know it may seem paltry to those in the 'point crock' camp,
> >that nifty little adjustment power advantage of "affects all powers
> >give sfx" applies EXACTLY in this instance. If the attack is bought
> Yes, but this is a consequence of the Power (which had to buy a +2
> Advantage
> for the privilege), not of the EC. I could design the character
> without the
> EC and the same consequence would still follow.
> --
Not exactly. You could design a character without an EC who has
the same powers with different special F/X and the consequence
would not follow. With EC you do not have that option.
Minor quibble, but the "affects all powers of given F/X" advantage
on adjustment powers still hardly justifies the cost break on EC...
at least not by itself.
___
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 13 Jan 98 20:07:02 -0800
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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t > From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
t >
t > > I have a question for you now... Have you really seen it to be true
t > > that Bricks (PC Bricks, who are built for concept) are *really* more
t > > powerful in head to head combat with other character types?
t >
t > They are, of course, but I don't see the point in discussing it. When
t > mathematical evidence is available, anecdotal evidence is weak to the
t > point of being completely irrelevant.
t > ---
Well, there's anecdotal, and there imperical (sp?). "I ran a game
with a brick and there was no problem" isn't very meaningful, neither
is "I ran this game and the brick was really gross" OTOH, "I've been
playing Champions for 15 years, played in multiple groups, and at
Conventions, and built hundreds of characters, and never once seen
evidence that the cost of STR makes Bricks overpowered" is a bit more
legitimate, though still hardly proof.
As for the mathematical evidence, it's based on the assumption that
1 point of any given characteristic or power is always exactly as
desireable as 1 point of any other... which, in spite of Hero being
a point-based system, is simply not true.
___
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:08:09 EST
Subject: Re: Explosives
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<< Um... I suggest you go talk to Brandon Lee about that comment. Oh, wait,
he's dead due to a blank fired at almost point-blank range into his head.
Admittedly, the range was probably a bit closer, but the shell in question was
less powerful. >>
Brandon Lee was killed by a *projectile*, not by gases. I had heard that the
gun was not safety checked and that an actual .44 round hit him (in the torso,
not the head; you're thinking of that actort from "Voyagers"). As far as
blanks go, they do fire a small paper or cloth wad, so they are not entirely
"safe" to fire at close range by any means. And by "pojectiles" I mean both
wads and lead.
Mark @ GRG
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:11:58 EST
Subject: Re: Explosives
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<< The slug caught in the chamber of the pistol when it was being unloaded and
blanks were inserted. So instead of a "harmless" blank, the pistol now had a
lead slug infront of a live cartridge. >>
Sounds like a cover story. Anyone who knows about the way a handgun
(revolver *or* semi-auto) functions knows what I'm referring to. The
difference in pressure/force between the blank and a "real" round is
substantial. I doubt a blank round could project a lead projectile out the
barrel, through a grocery bag and into a victim. Especially if it was "stuck"
in the barrel as you noted. Just my opinion, of course, but a skeptical one
backed by many years of experience working with and handling weapons.
Mark @ GRG
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 13 Jan 98 20:18:04 -0800
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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t > From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
t >
t > > I did _not_ say Frameworks when I meant Elemental Control. I said
t > "all
t > > Frameworks", so obviously I was admitting there was more than one.
t > > Multipower can easily be a far greater point crock than EC, and VPP
t > > can be even worse.
t >
t > Can you get into situations with Multipower and VPP where reducing the
t > level of an ability results in a higher cost? (Or vice-versa) I
t > haven't
t > been able to find any.
t >
Let's see:
40 Multipowr
4 u 20" Flight
14 u 20/20 Force field, 1/2 END
24 u 12d EB
--
82
vs
60 Multipower
6 u 30" Flight
5 u 20/20 FF, 1/2 END
6 u 12d EB
--
77
Saves 5 points and gives you and extra 10" flight 'free'
Of course the difference is because the first Multipower is
(for lack of a better way of putting it) bought inefficiently.
You can come up with badly-built examples to back up any point -
there all equally invalid.
___
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 13 Jan 98 20:32:06 -0800
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms
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f > All Base Characteristics (except PRE and COM) are cheaper than what it
f > costs to buy up their various abilities with Figured Characteristics,
f > skill levels, and powers. This is realistic, as in real life it is
f > these Base Characteristics that are usually exercised in order to
f > improve these abilities.
f >
f > It is obvious from comparing the various characteristics to the cost
f > of buying what they do separately that characteristics are _supposed_
f > to be more efficient-- they always are. The separate components are
f > supposed to cost more than the characteristic. STR merely shows this
f > in Figured characteristics, other characteristics show this elsewhere.
f >
f > Filksinger
f > ---
Very good! In fact, it's part of a broader scheme of 'volume discounts'
that's inherent in the Hero System. Look at levels. Say you have a
character with some nasty 8-slot attack mulitpower. (Ignoring the
efficiencies of a multipower), say you want a +3 OCV with each of
the attacks. Do you buy +3 OCV Level for 15 points or +3 OCV
with each power sepparately for 64 points? The cheaper option, BTW,
also gives you a +3 OCV on anything you might have outside the
Multipower. What a point crock! This system is hopelessly broken...
___
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Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:42:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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> << The slug caught in the chamber of the pistol when it was being unloaded and
> blanks were inserted. So instead of a "harmless" blank, the pistol now had a
> lead slug infront of a live cartridge. >>
>
> Sounds like a cover story. Anyone who knows about the way a handgun
> (revolver *or* semi-auto) functions knows what I'm referring to. The
> difference in pressure/force between the blank and a "real" round is
> substantial. I doubt a blank round could project a lead projectile out the
> barrel, through a grocery bag and into a victim. Especially if it was "stuck"
> in the barrel as you noted. Just my opinion, of course, but a skeptical one
> backed by many years of experience working with and handling weapons.
This is also the first I've heard of this story. Most accounts I read
mentioned nothing about a real lead slug. But then, there is somethign
creepy about the whole thing and simularities with one of Bruce Lee's
movies.
TokyoMark
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 13 Jan 98 20:44:08 -0800
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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f >
f > Another thing that cannot be properly simulated in Champions. No
f > matter how good my hold, you still get a roll every phase. Assuming
f > anything like a fair competition, you will escape within well under a
f > minute, most of the time. OTOH, some judo holds, once successfully
f > executed, are all but inescapable.
f >
f > Filksinger
f > ---
If it's in the midst of combat with multiple participants, I can
see the standard rule - you can't afford to concentrate exclusively
on the hold, but in a duel or match, I could see shifting to the
time chart when trying to break out, much like breaking out of
mental powers.... Or, you could dissallow further attempts if
the held character blows his attempt to escape very badly.
The other odd thing is that the character could, in less than a
minute easily knock themselves out trying to break or maintain
the hold. Now that I think about it, this how un-equal holds
usually go in my experience, one character pushes a few times
trying to get out, fails, and runs out of END.
___
* OFFLINE 1.58
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Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:50:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
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Subject: Re: Explosives
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On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Tokyo Mark wrote:
<stuff about the death of Brandon Lee snipped>
> This is also the first I've heard of this story. Most accounts I read
> mentioned nothing about a real lead slug. But then, there is somethign
> creepy about the whole thing and simularities with one of Bruce Lee's
> movies.
I also understand the constat use of rain in all the scenes ended up
electrocuting two people. Fatally, I believe. All-in-all, _The Crow_
didn't sound like the best run moive, prop wise...
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:52:49 -0600
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
Subject: Re: Point Crocks??????
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At 12:44 AM 1/14/98 -0600, Remnant wrote:
>If your definition of "point crock" is "Anything that is more effective for
>less points, is a point crock." If you think "point crocks" are a bad
>thing. Then I am surprised that you even play Hero. The number places
>where you can "save" points in Hero that don't limit your character that
>much are numerous. This is and has been part of the game forever.
To use an exaggerated example: murder has been part of the human condition
"forever". I'm still going to do everything in my power to prevent it from
occurring. :/
"Saving" points without any limiting factor to justify it may be a "part of
the system", but it's not really part of the system's PHILOSOPHY. Things
like the Basic Law of Disadvantages/Power Limitations express a clear desire
from the system creators that You Get What You Pay For.
> I know that doesn't make it right, but it does make it part of the system.
> I have always assumed that every character has equal access to the many
> and varied "point crocks" of the system. In this case, to me, Equal
> equates to equitable. 8-)
Every character has "equal access" only if you're willing to shift your
character concept to conform to the maximum number of exploitable "bugs".
Simply put, there should be no "bad design" that didn't come from a "bad
concept".
>Similar to a bug in a computer program. If you know it is there and it has
>a useful purpose, it isn't a bug it is simply an undocumented feature.
These bugs don't serve a useful purpose. In fact, they detriment the
"program" by degrading the ability of point totals to serve as an accurate
measure of character ability.
>If you think that the "point crocks" are not such that every character can
>access them equally, then you have one of the most realistic game systems
>ever developed. Imagine a game system the simulates real life so well that
>it isn't fair either.
You achieve the same effect via random character generation. Anyone takers
for randomized HERO? :/
>I have not been following the current arguments about STR and points very
>closely because my game is strange and we don't worry much over points. But
>the "hopelessly broken" comment got me. I don't care if STR is overpriced,
>underpriced , or even interdimensionally priced cause I really don't care
>about points. HERO IS GREAT.
HERO is great, but it's not perfect. It can be better.
And if you don't worry much over points, why worry about any changes to the
costs? :/
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 13 Jan 98 21:23:10 -0800
Subject: Re: Bugs
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
>
> >>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>
> BG> and Requires an Attack Roll (-1/2) are also applied.
> BG> (The Attack Roll is made when the bug is planted, and does not
> suffer
> BG> penalties for Active Points.)
>
> Since "Requires a Skill Roll" does have active point penalties and is
> worth
> - -1/2, having a similar roll but not having active point penalties
> should be
> worth less of a bonus.
First off, Activation Rolls certianly don't conform to this. Second,
the power in question is likely to be low Apts, so a skill roll would
be pretty easy, whereas an Attack roll can be quite difficult...
___
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 13 Jan 98 21:26:12 -0800
Subject: TUSV:Radically changing
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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To: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
l >
l > When I was using Champions for a space opera game, one thing I noticed
l > that humongous battlewagons were far too cheap relative to grav cars,
l > freighters, and jet belts. Then I found a very reasonable way to
l > this, at the cost (as it were) of making large vehicles very
l > expensive:
l >
Actually, no, I haven't noticed this. What I have noticed is that
large vehicles are pop targets - you can't much more than punch
through a bulkhead without destroying the vehicle, and that a tiny
vehicle has a great advantage in combat, unless you tie Apts to
mass somehow.
l > Buy all powers (armor, running, flight, life support) with enough area
l > effect to cover the vehicle. (Or not...buy life support only for the
l > quarters, for example.)
l >
In some instances, this can make sense. I'd like to see the vehicle's
BOD count for each hex or something like that, too. That would help
justify the huge cost.
___
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 13 Jan 98 21:30:14 -0800
Subject: Re: TUSV:Radically chang
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
b >
b > It's also a bit much, especially considering that in most campaigns
b > vehicles battling each other would be comparable in size and class.
b > There's also the rule (mostly new) that an organization can buy 2X
b > number of an identical class of vehicle for +5 points. So if the Star
Um... aren't vehicles bought as followers? That would be standard then,
or is it can only get 2x number for +5 pts if the vehciles are an identical
class?
b > Destroyer is built on 500 base points and the X-Wings are built on 200
b > each, that Star Destroyer had better be comparable to... well, *lots
b > lots* of X-Wings! (Though this balances out partially, because any
b > X-Wing can only do so much damage.)
b >
b > The basic crew for a vehicle is one person, who must have the
b > class of Vehicle Familiarity; a Crew Disadvantage is built from there.
b > 2X required Crew is +5 points; 3X points in required Skills is +5 point
b > I also have other modifiers for how well the Vehicle runs with a
b > skeleton crew.
Sounds good...
b > As for number of people required to operate a single device,
b > multi-person firing crews were (IIRC) introduced in the VIPER
b > which gives a -1 Limitation for "Two-Man Firing Crew." I'd be for
b > an additional -1/2 for each additional person in the required firing
b > crew.
Hmmm... I can see the -1, it's similar to OAF. But I think requiring
more crew should be a very small lim, maybe -1/4 per x2 people...
___
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 13 Jan 98 21:50:18 -0800
Subject: TUSV: Targets
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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Hey Bob! Something else occured to me... there are some
vehicles that I think TUSV should just have to be able
to do (ie the ones I've always had trouble building).
I think a really good Vehicle system should be able to
do all of these:
Derigibles, and other lighter-than-air-crafts
Modern Jet fighters
Hovercraft
Submarines
The Death Star (and *really* big vehicles in general)
'Warp Drive' starship (ie manuevering at FTL speeds like Star Trek)
'Jump Drive' starship (disapears in one part of the galaxy, reapears
many LY's away)
The TARDIS (bigger on the inside)
Transforming Vehicles (including Combining ones)
Living Vehicles
and...
Speed Racer's Mach 5 :)
Any others?
___
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Point Crocks??????
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 00:44:09 -0600
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>From Opal:
>Very good! In fact, it's part of a broader scheme of 'volume discounts'
>that's inherent in the Hero System. Look at levels. Say you have a
>character with some nasty 8-slot attack mulitpower. (Ignoring the
>efficiencies of a multipower), say you want a +3 OCV with each of
>the attacks. Do you buy +3 OCV Level for 15 points or +3 OCV
>with each power sepparately for 64 points? The cheaper option, BTW,
>also gives you a +3 OCV on anything you might have outside the
>Multipower. What a point crock! This system is hopelessly broken...
Please don't be offended if you were being facetious above, I haven't been
following you previous mailings enough to be able to tell. I know that you
have probably hit that "why can't they see my point?", place in the
arguments that get started on this list and seem to go on forever. Anybody
want to talk "Linked" Just kidding....back away from the gun....please it
was just a joke.....AAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHH
Okay I'm back now and properly chastised.
If your definition of "point crock" is "Anything that is more effective for
less points, is a point crock." If you think "point crocks" are a bad
thing. Then I am surprised that you even play Hero. The number places
where you can "save" points in Hero that don't limit your character that
much are numerous. This is and has been part of the game forever. I know
that doesn't make it right, but it does make it part of the system. I have
always assumed that every character has equal access to the many and varied
"point crocks" of the system. In this case, to me, Equal equates to
equitable. 8-)
Similar to a bug in a computer program. If you know it is there and it has
a useful purpose, it isn't a bug it is simply an undocumented feature.
If you think that the "point crocks" are not such that every character can
access them equally, then you have one of the most realistic game systems
ever developed. Imagine a game system the simulates real life so well that
it isn't fair either. (Sometimes I crack myself up.) hahahahahahahaha While
I'm talking about "point crocks" and cracking myself up, anyone ever had a
player who after taking the disad: extra damage from guns, think that it
applied only to guns, not bullets. Bwaaahhhahaha
I have not been following the current arguments about STR and points very
closely because my game is strange and we don't worry much over points. But
the "hopelessly broken" comment got me. I don't care if STR is overpriced,
underpriced , or even interdimensionally priced cause I really don't care
about points. HERO IS GREAT. It was the best in the early eighties when I
started playing and it has gotten better and stayed the best. HERO FOREVER.
I have to go now before I get digital tears stains on my e-mail. Thanks for
your time. Let the attacks commence, I can handle it
FOR, I AM MIGHTY.
And remember, BE A HERO.
Alan
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Nuclear weapons, revisited.
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:56:08 -0800
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Some time ago, there was a discussion on here concerning the
real-world effects of nuclear weapons, so that they could be modeled
in Champions and built on points. Reference was made to a book (one I
always liked), "The Effects of Nuclear Weapons". Remembering that my
local library system had it somewhere in the county, I put in a
request for it.
When I got it, it was the holidays, and I was too busy to read it and
post about it. Now, I find that I have it overdue.
So, without further adieu, the effects of an air-burst 10 kt nuclear
weapon (Hiroshima-size). Some of these are statistics from Hiroshima,
others are models created by building houses, etc., in the desert, and
then detonating a nuke in their neighborhood.
The book has an interesting "computer", one of those plastic wheels.
It tells you virtually all the figures you could want about a blast of
any particular size, from peak overpressure to wind speed to caloric
energy to how fast you will fly backwards if hit by the blast.
Comparing the results from this computer and various charts in the
book,I came up with these results. Remember, these are my attempts to
read a sometimes vague device that was a rough estimate to begin with.
To begin with, fatalities. Listed are the ranges at which 50% of the
people survived at Hiroshima for 20 days, under various levels of
cover.
Cover Distance in miles
Overall 0.8
Concrete
Buildings 0.12
School
Personnel:
Indoors 0.45
Outdoors 1.3
Burns
For a blast of this size, it is estimated that there will be third
degree burns on exposed skin at up to a distance of about 1.3-1.4
miles, second degree at 1.5-1.6, and first degree at 2.2 miles.
This, however, assumes a clear day. A little bit of haze makes a big
difference, and clouds severely cut down on the amount of direct heat
damage.
Buildings
On page 215, the amount of damage done to various types of buildings
at various distances from various weapons is laid out in a chart. You
line up the building type with either weapon yield or distance in
feet, and the chart will give you the missing element. This chart
gives both moderate (building badly damaged, askew but standing) and
severe (building falling over). The results are rather rough.
I have created a key for this drastically diminished version of the
chart.
Type 1, multistory reinforced concrete building with reinforced
concrete walls, designed to resist blast.
Type 3, brick apartment house type, up to three stories
Type 5, Wood frame house
Type 9, Earthquake resistant office building between three and ten
stories.
Type 10, Non-earthquake resistant office building between three and
ten stories.
Damage from ten megaton blast:
Distance
from blast
in feet
Building
Type Severe Damage Moderate Damage
1 1200' 1500'
3 4500' 5500'
5 5500' 7000'
9 1300' 1600'
10 1600' 2000'
Anyone who wants to try to model this in Champions, feel free. Anyone
who wants more data, get the book yourself.:)
Filksinger
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:03:10 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
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How much would skills levels to offset time penalties on a task cost?
--
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at
some point.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Magic Shapeshifting Potions
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:15:21 -0800
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On Wednesday, December 31, 1997 7:16 PM, Stirling Westrup wrote:
<<So Sayeth Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net&>
> On Monday, December 29, 1997 3:22 PM, Stirling Westrup wrote:
> That said, do not put points from a VPP into an Independent, one
> charge only forever Focus. That is just a way to waste points. One
> charge, perhaps, but not Independent, and definitely not one charge
> only forever.
So how do you model the classical fantasy 'magic potion', such that a
player
character can find one in a chest and be able to use it. Drinking it
lets the
hero turn into any animal he wants, for up to 1 hour.
And after you've modeled the potion, how do you model the alchemist
who makes a
living creating and selling such potions?
This problem seems to be a perennial one in Fantasy Hero games.>>
Try this.
An alchemist can create a potion via two methods. He can create it as
a disposable focus, and cost himself a fortune. This represents an
alchemist who places his own life energy into a potion to make it
work.
Most alchemists won't do this, for obvious reasons. For these
alchemists, try Transfer. The GM declares that various rare objects
have points in them that an alchemist can use. The alchemist then uses
Transfer to move the points from the materials to the potion, and then
the points are spent on the power, with appropriate limitations.
The Transfer may be only workable on "proper" items. Thus, Transfer to
get points for healing may come from the horn of a unicorn, but not
from the teeth of a dragon.
Expanding your Transfer power, in both strength and flexibility, is
the product of experience and learning/formulating new potions. The
Transfer can be short lived, to represent potions that go bad quickly,
or very long lived, for long lasting potions that are carefully
preserved. The character can have a Multipower full of Transfers,
while really skilled alchemists have VPPs.
Quests can exist for getting substances that contain many points.
Other quests can be started for items that are appropriate for a
potion the GM wants to be rare. Alchemists become useful, both as PCs
and NPCs.
Filksinger
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From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Explosives
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 04:33:25 -0500
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(material snipped)
>> Assuming that 1 DC is about 50 joules with a doubling of energy for every
>> additional DC, that puts one gram of TNT at about 7d6 damage, provided the
>> character takes the full brunt of the blast.
On January 13, 1998, Anthony Jackson replied:
> That assumption is really only valid for bullets. On the one hand, a STR 13
> guy with a broadsword (1d+1) is _not_ swinging the sword for 400 joules, he
> probably isn't even swinging it for 200 joules. This is even more notable
for
> punches and kicks, even someone pretty strong and trained in martial arts
> isn't going to be hitting for a lot over 100 joules. OTOH, a tablespoon of
> boiling water will deliver around 3000 joules of thermal energy into you if
> you pour it over your hand, and that isn't a 7d6 energy blast ;). DCs don't
> measure heat, they measure destructive ability.
I'll say this once again to the mailing list: Where kinetic attacks are
concerned, pressure is often a more reliable measure of damage than raw energy.
Unfortunately, force and pressure can be so damn difficult to estimate, the
physics of inelastic collisions being such a messy business. To know the force
involved, you have to know the time over which the collision occurs. For
example, when a human body falls from a height and hits solid concrete, it
takes perhaps .01 to .03 seconds for the body to decelerate to a downward
velocity of 0.0 m/sec, so you can measure the forces and pressures applied in
such falls (about 48 g for a 1-story fall, 95 g for a 2-story fall).
Estimating forces and pressures applied to both elastic and inelastic materials
for so many different types of collisions is a hairy problem. Working with
energy is a helluva a lot simpler.
In the case of a sword cut, no, the sword likely doesn't have as high a kinetic
energy as 400 J, but the force of the blow is applied over the blade's edge, a
very small surface area, hence great pressure. Bullets also strike with small
surface area/high pressure. That's why bullets and swords are killing attacks,
and punches and concussive shockwaves are normal attacks--greater surface area,
lower pressure.
100 J of KE is a reasonable punch or kick for a normal person, hence I treat it
as a 2d6 normal attack. If you like, scale 2d6 back to just 50 J, and set 1d6
at 25 J. In the case of a martial artist, he both a) knows how and where to
strike his target for best effect, and b) learns to tap a greater portion of
the power potential of his body than someone with no martial training is
capable of harnessing. Consider, for example, the angular momentum and KE of
Chuck Norris's spinning back kick, or Bruce Lee's famous one-inch punch, where
years of training permitted him to harness every bit of energy he could into a
focused blow.
Translating damage dice into heat energy is something I thrashed out in a post
for the benefit of Bob Greenwade about a month ago. Your example of a teaspoon
of boiling water again shows the trouble with considering raw energy alone.
Now if every calorie of heat in that water were transferred to the flesh it
touched, it would leave considerable burn damage, provided the person's ED
wasn't too far above the human average. Of course, if the person flinches his
hand away as the water touches it, then only a fraction of the thermal energy
will be transferred to his flesh, so the actual damage is much less than 7d6.
>> So that 1 gm of TNT exploding in the open has an effective blast energy of
>> just 4,200/5 = 800 joules directed at any single nearby target, for a 5d6
>> EX. 500 gm (or 1 lb.) would do 14d6 EX, 1 kg 15d6, 1 ton 25d6, 1 kiloton
>> 35d6, and 1 megaton 45d6.
> Let's reality-check these numbers. One gram of TNT is roughly equivalent to
> the propellant charge behind a .30 caliber rifle; actually, I think it is a
> bit less. Therefore, if we just take a blank .30 cartridge and set it off in
> open air, it will do 5d6 to someone a meter away. Hm...I think not. Thus,
> let's fix some numbers.
> 1) A human of fairly typical proportions actually will be hit by about 3% of
> the force of the shockwave at one meter (that 1/5 rule has to do with
somewhat
> different issues). For 1/4 kilo of TNT (1 stick dynamite) this works out to
> around 30,000 joules.
A sound criticism. I was trying to keep the math simple, making a comparison
with timber cutting charges, rather than, say, considering the surface area of
a human-sized target relative to that of a sphere of 1-meter radius. This
leads to the possibility that a person with several levels of Growth will take
more damage from the shock wave, a person with several levels of Shrinking less
(though more Knockback). I also didn't want to plug in a rule where an
explosion within the same hex as a target is treated differently from placing
the charge right next to the target--I'm not about to quibble over 1 or 2 feet
of distance from a blast center.
Divide the energy delivered by 1/10 or 1/20 for that 1 meter distance from the
blast center, and you get energies of 400 J or 200 J, which a human with a
decent PD could soak up without too severe an injury. He should worry more
about his hearing than his flesh and bones. You get a base 4d6 or 3d6 damage
for 1 gm of TNT exploding in the open, then, or about 13d6 for a kilo of HE.
If you like, increase damage by +1d6 or +2d6 for a demolition charge placed
next to or strapped to an object or wall.
> 2) Shockwaves aren't actually all that efficient at delivering energy into
> someone; figure its roughly equivalent to hitting water. A three meter fall
> into water is fairly painful if you hit badly, quite possibly capable of
> stunning an average person, so calling this 3d6N or 4d6N is about right. For
> an 80 kilogram man this is around 2400 joules. 30,000 joules is about +3.5
> damage classes relative to this, so calling a stick of dynamite 7d6N sounds
> about right, which is about 6d6 less than your numbers. I think I've usually
> set a kilo of high explosives at 10d6N, which is slightly higher, but 15d6 is
> quite a bit out of line.
When using HE for demolition work, 10d6N for a kilo seems too low for me, and
7d6 very problematic. You certainly have to keep the rD and BODY figures for
walls and objects low--which in turn leads to trouble when a character with a
20 STR who can do 8d6 damage with an offensive strike can shatter trees and
punch through brick walls. A 1/2-lb. TNT charge will reliably cut down a 5"
diameter tree, cut through a steel cross-section 1/2" thick by 3" wide, or cut
through high-carbon steel rod or cable 3/4" in diameter. Treat these as 7d6
attacks (or maybe as 8d6 or 9d6 attacks if you want to account for the charge
being closely placed) and you get martial artists who can easily match or even
surpass that destructive capability. I don't like that. I think hard targets
should be difficult for normal humans to destroy, so HE damage is kept high to
put it well above what Daredevil or Batman can do with a punch or kick.
>> To get even more realistic with explosives, the damage dice should not
>> drop off as rapidly as with the basic Explosion Advantage. For persons in
>> the open, the minimum safe distance in meters is 100 * the cube-root of
>> the weight of the TNT in pounds. So for just 1 pound, this recommended
>> distance is 100 meters. For 500 pounds, 800 meters. Treating explosives
>> as dropping of by -1 DC per 3" or 4" distance gives a more threateningly
>> realistic blast radius.
> Hm...this definition sounds like 'distance at which you cannot possibly be
> hurt, even if you get really really unlucky'.
Correct.
> My traditional answer to area effect for explosions was -1/hex out to 4
hexes,
> and beyond that use (-4 + range penalty). This is actually a bit off, due to
> the way shockwaves propagate in air; its closer to -3d6 per doubling in range
> than -2d6.
Again, trying to keep the rule simple. I don't want to drag out a calculator
and work out cube-root equations for every explosion. Your approach makes
sense.
>> Fragmentation bombs involve something more. They do damage both from the
>> concussive blast of the charge and from the fragments or shrapnel sent
>> flying at great speed. I would treat that as an autofire RKA explosion
>> linked to the explosive charge, to represent the multiple fragments that
>> may strike every target within the blast radius. Typical fragmentation
>> grenades might be a 10d6 or 11d6 EX, -1 DC per 3," with a 1-1/2d6 or 2d6
>> autofire RKA EX, -1 DC per 2", linked to it.
> Shrapnel generally has lower penetration than a pistol round. Try 1d6, but
> instead of reducing damage with range, give shrapnel an activation roll
(maybe
> about 14- at 1 meter) which is reduced by range.
And pistol rounds at close range do too little damage for my taste. But then,
maybe I just like to make a campaign world dangerous, be it bullets,
explosions, or high falls.
Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 98 09:38:19 -0000
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From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 1/13/98 11:45 PM Bob Greenwade (bob.greenwade@klock.com) Said:
>> A hummer with airbags would be nice... Even the manufacturers are making
>>airbags optional now. ;) Not worth making it EV equipment, IMO.
>
> Yeah, you're right here; they're uncommon enough that I think I'll
>strike the bags and let them be a "pay the points" item. (Then I gotta
>figure out how to build them... I'm thinking of a Limited sort of Knockback
>Resistance.)
I would probably put it as armor, "only to protect occupants (not
vehicle)" and "only in a crash", since most crashes are not done as
knockback damage (unless you have crash rules that make them work that
way).
IMO,
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 06:05:09 -0800
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On Tuesday, January 13, 1998 3:45 PM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 05:27 PM 1/13/98 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
<snip>
>><< Engine Thermometer >>
>>
>> Thermostat
>
> Thermo*stat*? Maybe I gotta check my dictionary, but that seems
kinda
>odd....
>
<snip>
Actually, the temperature _control_ device is called a thermostat, and
the engine temperature sensor is called an engine temperature sensor.
No thermometer, largely because almost none of them tell you the
actual temperature.
Filksinger
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Explosives
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 06:12:15 -0800
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On Tuesday, January 13, 1998 8:08 PM, Tokyo Mark wrote:
>> << The slug caught in the chamber of the pistol when it was being
unloaded and
>> blanks were inserted. So instead of a "harmless" blank, the pistol
now had a
>> lead slug infront of a live cartridge. >>
>>
>> Sounds like a cover story. Anyone who knows about the way a
handgun
>> (revolver *or* semi-auto) functions knows what I'm referring to.
The
>> difference in pressure/force between the blank and a "real" round
is
>> substantial. I doubt a blank round could project a lead projectile
out the
>> barrel, through a grocery bag and into a victim. Especially if it
was "stuck"
>> in the barrel as you noted. Just my opinion, of course, but a
skeptical one
>> backed by many years of experience working with and handling
weapons.
>
>This is also the first I've heard of this story. Most accounts I
read
>mentioned nothing about a real lead slug.
The accounts I read did. There was quite a mystery for a little while
about where it came from.
>But then, there is somethign
>creepy about the whole thing and simularities with one of Bruce Lee's
>movies.
>
The story of a slug falling loose into the barrel, getting stuck, and
then being fired into Brandon Lee's stomach was the official finding
of the inquest. It is less unbelievable than it looks. First, the
bullet wasn't 'stuck', exactly. Bullets not being pushed by gases will
stay in a barrel. Second, the impact was in the stomach. Third, it may
have been weaker than a normal .44 magnum round, but the size and
power of a .44 magnum, combined with the power of Hollywood blanks (so
as to supply smoke and flash) was sufficient to give it a momentum
similar to a .22 round, which can kill.
Filksinger
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 07:20:39 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
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At 11:03 PM 1/13/98 -0800, Rook wrote:
>How much would skills levels to offset time penalties on a task cost?
On a specific task? I'd say 1 point each (the only cost less than
general Skill Levels to a single Skill).
On any task? I'd call it 5 points. Call it Overall Skill Levels, with
a -1 Limitation "Only to Offset Time Penalties."
---
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Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 07:27:59 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
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At 05:53 PM 1/14/98 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
>> Air Vehicles:
>> Altimeter Plus airspeed indicator, vertical speed indicator, compass
system,
>attitude indicator (which way is up?). All of these are considered basic
>flight instruments.
Yeah, I'd missed the attitude indicator somehow, even though the whole
time I was writing it I was visualizing its appearance.
>> Beacon Lights Called Anti-collision lights or anti-collision strobes
combined with
>position lights ( the red and green lights that are at the left and right
>extremities of the aircract)
Thanks for the clarification. On both this as the attitude indicator, I
was blanking out on the correct terminology.
>> Climate Control Not always
Common enough to include on this list.
>> Fuel Gauge If you are going into fuel gauge level, include engine
performance
>moniters (engine speed, engine exhaust tempeture, power (or torque)
supplied,
>fire detection)
Good call.
>> Radio (2-way) Actually, two or three seperate radios plus some
navigation beacon
>receivers
One is enough for game purposes.
>> Running Lights Helicopters also have searchlights that are rotatable as
standard fit.
That's a big enough thing that points should be paid for it.
>> Seat Belts
>
> Another component that is required to be able to fly is an IFF
>transponder to enable air traffic control to know who is flying in their
>airspace. It also tells them how high the aircraft is.
Got that now; thanks. :-]
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Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 07:28:36 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
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At 06:00 PM 1/14/98 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> Yeah, you're right here; they're uncommon enough that I think I'll
>> strike the bags and let them be a "pay the points" item. (Then I gotta
>> figure out how to build them... I'm thinking of a Limited sort of Knockback
>> Resistance.)
>
> How about 1/2 damage reduction, normal physical only, only from the
>front.
Sounds reasonable, unless someone comes up with a better idea.
---
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Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 07:49:13 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Radical Changes
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At 09:30 PM 1/13/98 -0800, Opal wrote:
>To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
> b >
> b > It's also a bit much, especially considering that in most campaigns
> b > vehicles battling each other would be comparable in size and class.
> b > There's also the rule (mostly new) that an organization can buy 2X
> b > number of an identical class of vehicle for +5 points. So if the Star
>
>Um... aren't vehicles bought as followers? That would be standard then,
>or is it can only get 2x number for +5 pts if the vehciles are an identical
>class?
To the first question, no. They're bought in the same manner as
Followers, but in the BBB they are their own Perk and not actually Followers.
To the second question, yes. You only get 2X per +5 points if the
vehicles are an identical class. A 100-point Starfury and a 100-point
X-Wing, even if owned by the same organization, would have to be bought
altogether separately.
And to avoid confusion, this rule is only applicable to organizations (a
version of my Organization Construction rules are in an Appendix, pared
down enough to be barely recongizable) and not to regular characters.
>b > As for number of people required to operate a single device,
> b > multi-person firing crews were (IIRC) introduced in the VIPER
> b > which gives a -1 Limitation for "Two-Man Firing Crew." I'd be for
> b > an additional -1/2 for each additional person in the required firing
> b > crew.
>
>Hmmm... I can see the -1, it's similar to OAF. But I think requiring
>more crew should be a very small lim, maybe -1/4 per x2 people...
The way I'm seeing it is as a -1/2 per person, including the first, for
needing more than one (a sort of "Weapons of Opportunity" variant).
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Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 07:51:43 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Targets
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At 09:50 PM 1/13/98 -0800, Opal wrote:
>Hey Bob! Something else occured to me... there are some
>vehicles that I think TUSV should just have to be able
>to do (ie the ones I've always had trouble building).
>
>I think a really good Vehicle system should be able to
>do all of these:
>
>Derigibles, and other lighter-than-air-crafts
There shouldn't be much trouble there. I was struggling for a while
with how to represent the oversized gas balloon, but I'm now leaning toward
using a Physical Limitation.
>Modern Jet fighters
>
>Hovercraft
>
>Submarines
These will be *no* trouble. The main emphases in the book are, in
approximate order, superhero vehicles, giant robots, "Space Opera" ships,
and conventional combat craft. And whether your vision of hovercraft is
duct fan ground-hoverers or true flying vehicles, that will be covered.
>The Death Star (and *really* big vehicles in general)
That should be doable. In fact, I'm thinking of including such a vessel
in the Sample Characters and Vehicles chapter.
>'Warp Drive' starship (ie manuevering at FTL speeds like Star Trek)
>
>'Jump Drive' starship (disapears in one part of the galaxy, reapears
> many LY's away)
You should be satisfied here.
>The TARDIS (bigger on the inside)
I've come up with an unusual way of doing this. It's a little long to
go into right at this time, but the feedback I've gotten from reviewers has
been positive, so I think you'll like it.
>Transforming Vehicles (including Combining ones)
Absolutely! :-] I've carried forward the method of Combining from the
old Robot Warriors game, though I understand that The Ultimate Shape
Shifter is using a method for Combine based on Duplication instead of
Multiform, so I may end up using that technique (depending on what the
final editorial decision is).
>Living Vehicles
That's in there. I need to expand the coverage a tad, though; you may
even find a wholly new alien race that uses living space vehicles (which,
BTW, are built like regular characters with appropriate abilties and such).
>Speed Racer's Mach 5 :)
I'm sure Michael Surbrook would be happy to post Speed Racer and the
Mach 5 after TUSV comes out. Or maybe he won't wait that long, since he
has an eval copy of the rough draft....
Heck, just to make sure everyone's satisfied, I'm going to rent
"Goldfinger" before I send in the first draft just to make sure that
there's at least a token representation of funky automotive spy gear (like
those rotating license plates) in the Equipment Sourcebook. :-]
---
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:05:04 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 06:05 AM 1/14/98 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>On Tuesday, January 13, 1998 3:45 PM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>At 05:27 PM 1/13/98 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><snip>
>>><< Engine Thermometer >>
>>>
>>> Thermostat
>>
>> Thermo*stat*? Maybe I gotta check my dictionary, but that seems
>kinda
>>odd....
>>
><snip>
>
>Actually, the temperature _control_ device is called a thermostat, and
>the engine temperature sensor is called an engine temperature sensor.
>No thermometer, largely because almost none of them tell you the
>actual temperature.
That's probably more like it.
Hm.... perhaps an actual thermometer should be Detect with
Discriminatory and Exact Measure?
---
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:05:11 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
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On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Rick Holding wrote:
> Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> > Yeah, you're right here; they're uncommon enough that I think I'll
> > strike the bags and let them be a "pay the points" item. (Then I gotta
> > figure out how to build them... I'm thinking of a Limited sort of Knockback
> > Resistance.)
>
> How about 1/2 damage reduction, normal physical only, only from the
> front.
Charges (1). Triggered.
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Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:10:39 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
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At 09:38 AM 1/14/98 -0000, David Fair wrote:
>On 1/13/98 11:45 PM Bob Greenwade (bob.greenwade@klock.com) Said:
>
>>> A hummer with airbags would be nice... Even the manufacturers are making
>>>airbags optional now. ;) Not worth making it EV equipment, IMO.
>>
>> Yeah, you're right here; they're uncommon enough that I think I'll
>>strike the bags and let them be a "pay the points" item. (Then I gotta
>>figure out how to build them... I'm thinking of a Limited sort of Knockback
>>Resistance.)
>
>I would probably put it as armor, "only to protect occupants (not
>vehicle)" and "only in a crash", since most crashes are not done as
>knockback damage (unless you have crash rules that make them work that
>way).
Having seen computerized recreations and live simulations (with dummies)
of what happens to unrestrained passengers in a collision, I think I will
call it Knockback damage. I don't remember offhand whether I have it
marked that way, but now that I'm thinking about it I'll go check it and
make sure.
(I'm thinking most specifically of the [I *think*] Failure Analysis
recreation of Princess Diana's crash, showing how her position would have
given her the safest spot in the car had she been wearing her safety belt,
but gave her the deadliest because she was not -- she literally became a
human missile, flying through the suddenly stationary car at 110 mph,
headfirst. With the safety belt, they concluded, she would likely have
been treated at the scene, held at a hospital for observation, and released
the next day.)
---
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:36:08 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Hurting yourself
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A while back the list had a discussion about Champions' lack of rules to
cover the 'effect' of punching something and accidentally hurting yourself.
Here's a try:
A.) In all cases, if the attack does knockback (or knockdown), the attacker
shouldn't damage himself.
B.) Similarly, if the attacker damages a target (does BODY damage), he
should not damage himself (target absorbs some of the punishment).
C.) If A.) and B.) are not satisified, compare the DEF of the attacker and
the DEF of the object/target. If the attacker's DEF is higher, the attacker
does not take damage from the attack.
D.) If the target's DEF is higher, the attacker takes (Target DEF - Attacker
DEF)D6 of normal attack, up to the number of dice of attack.
E.) This works for weapons attacks too, but use the weapon's DEF in place of
attacker's DEF, and the damage is applied to the weapon.
F.) Martial Artists use DEFx1.5 to calculate their 'simulated' DEF when
using martial arts attacks (they're used to hitting things) - this is
partially balanced by the fact that MA attacks do less Knockback.
G.) Certain martial arts attacks that do not do damage through brute force
(nerve strike, legsweep) should not be subject to these rules.
Examples:
Green Dragon (PD 10) uses his Martial Strike (9D6) on Ogre (PD 28), and
fails to do any knockback. Green Dragon suffers a (28-[10x1.5])=13D6 Attack,
lowered to 9D6 b/c that's the maximum. Owch!
Seeker tries the same stunt (only he has 15PD and a 7D6 Martial Strike) on
Ogre, and fails to do KB or BODY. 28-(15x1.5)=5 1/2D6 Normal Attack on
Seeker. It'll sting a little, but not too bad.
Joe Normal (PD 2) punches Green Dragon (PD 10) with his fist (2D6). Joe
Normal fails to do any knockback and suffers (10-2)=8D6, lowered to 2D6 b/c
that's the maximum. That stings - the normal only has 2 PD (decent chance of
doing himself BODY damage).
Green Dragon uses his Martial Strike on Seeker (PD 15) and once again fails
to do knockback. 15-(10x1.5)= 0, no damage.
Seeker swings his Katana at Ogre, doing no knockback or BODY. The Katana is
a 25 AP focus, so it has 5 DEF. 28-5=23D6, but the attack has a 10DC
capacity. The Katana suffers a 10D6 normal attack, probably shattering it
completely.
Comments? This should keep martial artists from using 'brute force' on
bricks - they're liable to hurt themselves. Not to mention break all their
shiny toys.
I might also suggest that only the outermost defenses be counted for these
purposes. i.e. if somebody hit Solitare with her FF up, they'd be facing a
13PD rather than a 21 PD, b/c it isn't all really the same defense. Perhaps
just the biggest single defense power/characteristic involved - to avoid the
'Grond in a suit of chainmail, so it's safer to punch him' problem. Also,
certain Armor SFX could render the point moot - nobody hurts his hand
punching FluffyMan (30 DEF, but soft and fluffy).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:44:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: TUSV: Targets
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On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >Speed Racer's Mach 5 :)
>
> I'm sure Michael Surbrook would be happy to post Speed Racer and the
> Mach 5 after TUSV comes out. Or maybe he won't wait that long, since he
> has an eval copy of the rough draft....
Uh... no. I can't stand that show and have _no_ desire of writing up
anything associated with it.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Point Crocks??????
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:50:34 -0600
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-----Original Message-----
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Wednesday, January 14, 1998 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: Point Crocks??????
>At 12:44 AM 1/14/98 -0600, Remnant wrote:
>>If your definition of "point crock" is "Anything that is more effective
for
>>less points, is a point crock." If you think "point crocks" are a bad
>>thing. Then I am surprised that you even play Hero. The number places
>>where you can "save" points in Hero that don't limit your character that
>>much are numerous. This is and has been part of the game forever.
>
>To use an exaggerated example: murder has been part of the human condition
>"forever". I'm still going to do everything in my power to prevent it from
>occurring. :/
Bad anaology. The use of saving points in Hero is basically a reward for a
cohearent character. Package deals reward you for having a concept, and
alow you to afford usefull noncombat skill that might otherwise be left
behind. ECs and MPs allow characters to afford cohearent sets of powers,
that would otherwise be imposible to make. Immagine the point cost on any
low level character without frameworks. Quantum and Starburst would rocket
up. If we were to drop these point savers, energy projectors would end up
with two powers, flight and EB. This is not a good thing as it would make
the game less fun. Abuses to the system are one thing, but those are going
to happen regaurdless of the rules. The GM must be vigialent and can't
expect the system to do his job for him. Anyone who thinks otherwise
probably aslo believes that the V-chip will make a good babysiter.
>
>"Saving" points without any limiting factor to justify it may be a "part
>of
The limiting factor is conecept.
>the system", but it's not really part of the system's PHILOSOPHY.
CHARACTER CONCEPT IS THE BASIC PHILOSOHPY OF THE GAME!!!!
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:32:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Explosives
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Len Carpenter writes:
> I'll say this once again to the mailing list: Where kinetic attacks are
> concerned, pressure is often a more reliable measure of damage than raw
> energy. Unfortunately, force and pressure can be so damn difficult to
> estimate, the physics of inelastic collisions being such a messy business.
Actually, 'damage' is probably most closely related to linear penetration,
which isn't a function of pressure per se; for a bullet it's generally
proportional to momentum divided by area. Realistically, someone with a level
of density increase would probably do more damage with a punch than someone of
identical strength without density increase.
> a hairy problem. Working with energy is a helluva a lot simpler.
True. Just add a fudge-factor for various _kinds_ of energy -- not all forms
of energy are equal.
>
> 100 J of KE is a reasonable punch or kick for a normal person.
No, its actually a damned _impressive_ punch for a normal person. A normal
person probably punches for closer to 20 joules.
>
> Translating damage dice into heat energy is something I thrashed out in a
> post for the benefit of Bob Greenwade about a month ago. Your example of
> a teaspoon of boiling water again shows the trouble with considering raw
> energy alone. Now if every calorie of heat in that water were transferred
> to the flesh it touched, it would leave considerable burn damage, provided
> the person's ED wasn't too far above the human average. Of course, if the
> person flinches his hand away as the water touches it, then only a fraction
> of the thermal energy will be transferred to his flesh, so the actual damage
> is much less than 7d6.
Um, my energy example assumes 100C water, which cools by 50 degrees on striking
flesh. The real heat transfer might be less, call it 25 degrees if you take
that tablespoon of water and pour it somewhere (say, over the back of your
hand, without flinching). First-degree burns over 50-100 square centimeters of
flesh are not a 6d6 energy blast.
>
> A sound criticism. I was trying to keep the math simple, making a
> comparison with timber cutting charges, rather than, say, considering the
> surface area of a human-sized target relative to that of a sphere of 1-meter
> radius. This leads to the possibility that a person with several levels of
> Growth will take more damage from the shock wave, a person with several
> levels of Shrinking less (though more Knockback).
Realistically, I'd probably subtract a die of damage from explosions per level
of shrinking, and add a die per 3 levels of growth, with an upper limit.
> When using HE for demolition work, 10d6N for a kilo seems too low for me,
> and 7d6 very problematic.
Using explosives for demolitions work is a _lot_ more effective than using it
for open charges. For a properly tamped high explosive, add about 5d6 to its
damage. For an expert, you could add the effects of a single use of find
weakness.
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:37:03 EST
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< I would probably put it as armor, "only to protect occupants (not vehicle)"
and "only in a crash">>
Or more accurately, "Only from front-end impact" ;)
Mark @ GRG
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:46:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Duane Morris <duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca>
Reply-To: Duane Morris <duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
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On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Rick Holding wrote:
> Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> > Yeah, you're right here; they're uncommon enough that I think I'll
> > strike the bags and let them be a "pay the points" item. (Then I gotta
> > figure out how to build them... I'm thinking of a Limited sort of Knockback
> > Resistance.)
>
> How about 1/2 damage reduction, normal physical only, only from the
> front.
Are you talking about damage only from going forwards, or from collisions
from the front of the car... I know that airbags are only supposed to
inflate if there is a collision within 10 degrees of headon <I may be
wrong on that figure, though>.
I would also be tempted to add some sort of damage shield/NND to it...
Duane.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Duane Morris <duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca> Dept. of Technical Services
Faculty of Pure and Applied Science Petrie Science Stores
York University, North York, Ontario M3J 1P3, CANADA
Voice: (416) 736-5244; Fax: (416) 736-5516
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:51:01 EST
Subject: Re: Nuclear weapons, revisited.
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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<< Some time ago, there was a discussion on here concerning the real-world
effects of nuclear weapons, so that they could be modeled in Champions and
built on points. >>
This was done in Hero System Almanac 2, I believe. :/
Mark @ GRG
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "aregalad@miami.edu" <aregalad@miami.edu&>
"Hero System Mailing List" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 98 19:05:40
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Wish: Benchmarks (was: A Sample Character)
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On Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:19:44 -0500 (EST), aregalad@miami.edu wrote:
>Howdy,
>
>> >> >Actually, you have just proved my point and validated my observations
>> >> >about INT. You are right about ONE thing. When I said INT is only good for
>> >> >Perception and INT rolls I neglected to mention skill rolls (I kind of
>> >> >lumped them with INT rolls - my bad). The thing is that skills based on
>> >> >INT and INT rolls have the same breakdown - hence they have the same
>> >> >problem. Nothing about my argument is invalidated.
>> >>
>> >> Actually it was, but if you add in INT based skills, then yes, it makes
>> >> a VAST difference, and as far as you go, I agree with you, but there
>> >> are alternatives.
>> >
>> >I'm sorry - when you say "Actually it was," what do you mean?
>>
>> Invalidated, totally.
>
>Hmmm...I'm afraid we are just going to have to disagree. I honestly can't
>even begin to see how this is the case.
>
>> > As far as INT based skills making a huge difference
>> >- not really, at least not relative to other characteristic rolls and the
>> >skills they modify.
>>
>> The invalidation because there are camapigns which emphasise skills
>> rather than powers, and in such campaigns, INT is very effective.
>
>My only point here is that there are skills based on PRE, DEX, STR just as
Which skills are based on Str?
>there are skills based on INT. Because of this - even in a game that
>emphasizes skills over powers - INT is no more important than the other
>stats.
This is not so at all, in my experience.
> Even if it were, this beside the point. I never said
>INT wasn't effective.
Agreed, but you vastly underrated its effectiveness in your original
statement.
>My point is that if you are going to break down the
>effectiveness of ALL characteristics these categories need to make
>sense and to do so they should each make a difference in game play
>(otherwise the categories mean nothing).
I can agree with that, but it didn't come out in your original post.
>> >> Alternatively, as in the example of the Repartee rules, you can have an
>> >> INT CV, which would be appropriate for many mental powers, and, in a FH
>> >> game, you can allow wizards to have INT/3 spells active instead of the
>> >> INT/5 that is more appropriate for the modern era.
>> >
>> >We could, but we don't. :]
>>
>> Why not try it? I'm not running a Hero campaign at the moment, but it
>> strikes me as being eminently sensible for non-superhero campaigns.
>
>It might be sensible. I'm not saying its a bad idea - I'm just saying that
>for the purpose of my benchmarks I'd rather stick to the official
>characteristic rules.
Fair enough.
>> >> Anyway, as I stated earlier, INT is very cheap for its utility.
>> >
>> >I'm not at all concerned with cost.
>
>> !
>
>Heh, your exclamation mark response leads me to believe that you
>have not fully understood my argument (probably my fault for not being
>clear enough). I have NEVER said that INT wasn't cost effective. I'm just
>saying that if you make 20 near human maximum, there is not enough
>granularity to make a convincing set of benchmarks. Most benchmark tables
>I've seen break stats down into aproximately 5 categories between average
>and human maximum. Fuzion's are pretty standard. Again, they are:
>Everyman, Competent, Heroic, Incredible and Legendary. If 20 is near
>maximim you only have 3 breakdown points: 11<, 12< and 13<.
>
>Can you see this? Does this make sense?
>
>Let me try to give an example. I'm making Doc Genius in a campaign that
>heavily emphasizes skills over powers. I decide to look at my 5th Edition
>HERO book and find that they have a handy dandy benchmark table that looks
>something like this:
>
>
>10-12 Everyman 11<
>13-14 Competent 12<
>15-16 Heroic 12<
>17-18 Incredible 13<
>19-20 Legendary 13<
>
>Cool, well Doc Genius is the brightest there is, so I buy him a 20 INT.
>Now he has a 13< in his 50 science skills.
>
>Now my friend Mike is making a character named Mr. Pedantry. This guy is
>pretty smart (although a show-off) but Mike decides that he is not as
>smart as Doc Genius. Because of this he buys Mr. Pedantry an 18 INT. Now
>the base Mr. Pedantry's 10 science skills is ...... 13<! Wait! That's the
>same as Doc Genius' Legendary INT.
>
>Now, I'm not really complaining about my skill base. I mean, 13 or less in
>50 sciences is pretty good. I DO, however, think the benchmarks don't make
>sense. Why does somebody with a Legendary INT have the same skill base as
>somebody with an Incredible INT? Why buy a Legendary INT at all?
>
>That is why I can't understand why you feel my argument has been refuted
>somehow. All I was arguing is that HERO needs to take these discrepancies
>into consideration when they make their benchmark tables (if they make
>'em). They either need to make the human maximum for INT (and maybe PRE)
>much higher to give the granularity such benchmark tables need - or they
>need to redefine the way INT works (all of Vox and Phantom's suggestions
>were good, IMO).
What you're not seeing is that Hero is really designed as a *SuperHero*
game, where one hero will have Int 15 and another Int 40. In Heroic
campaigns, then the reduced differential is reflected - see my seperate
argument about Str.
>Well, that is about as clear as I can be. If you still can't see my point,
>I would appreciate an explanation of yours. I'd honestly be interested in
>hearing your logic. Thanks for your time.
Simply that in your original post you vastly underestimated the value
of Int. You have since corrected this.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 98 19:19:48
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Magic Shapeshifting Potions
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On Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:19:52 -0500, Joe Claffey Jr. wrote:
>"Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> asks,
>>
>>So how do you model the classical fantasy 'magic potion', such that a player
>>character can find one in a chest and be able to use it. Drinking it lets the
>>hero turn into any animal he wants, for up to 1 hour.
Can you cite any sources? Usually the potion lets you assume the form
of a *particular* animal.
A potion is usualy a collection of Effects with the Advantage 'Trigger'
(being consumed).
> Usually a VPP: Animal Powers, used with a Universal Expendable Focus.
Try Summon, and make an Ego Roll to avoid going wild.
qts
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 98 19:24:31
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms
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On 13 Jan 98 20:18:04 -0800, Opal wrote:
> t > From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
> t >
> t > > I did _not_ say Frameworks when I meant Elemental Control. I said
> t > "all
> t > > Frameworks", so obviously I was admitting there was more than one.
> t > > Multipower can easily be a far greater point crock than EC, and VPP
> t > > can be even worse.
> t >
> t > Can you get into situations with Multipower and VPP where reducing the
> t > level of an ability results in a higher cost? (Or vice-versa) I
> t > haven't
> t > been able to find any.
> t >
>
>Let's see:
>
>40 Multipowr
> 4 u 20" Flight
>14 u 20/20 Force field, 1/2 END
>24 u 12d EB
>--
>82
This should cost a max of 52 = 40 + (3x(40/10))
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 98 19:28:19
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:27:28 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< I need help from those who are better informed than I about what equipment
>should be considered "standard" for all vehicles of various types. >>
><< Air Vehicles: >>
><< Radar (360 degree, non-Discriminatory, non-Targeting) >>
>
> 360 degree radar is not, I don't believe, standard on all aircraft. For
>starters, there are a few small planes that do not have radar. Those aside,
>the radar I'm thinking of (such as on airliners and fighters) is directional;
>the coverage can be altered (e.g., 60 degree cone to 180 degree front, etc.)
>but I don't think it has 360 coverage. That's a mighty powerful radar blowin'
>through the pilot, mate! ;) True, certain aircraft, like the AWACS and the
>Orion, would have 360 degree radar, but this wouldn't be "EveryVeh" equipment,
>IMO.
The Awacs has a huge radar blind spot - underneath. TTBOMK the British
Nimrod is the only one with 360 degree coverage, because it has radars
fore and aft.
qts
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: A Sample Character
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>>>>> "SW" == Stirling Westrup <sti@CAM.ORG> writes:
SW> I have an aquaintance who is a martial artist and a martial arts
SW> choreagrapher for the movies. (He claims, BTW that the two fields have
SW> almost nothing in common).
He is 100% correct.
SW> He's told me that ALL fight scenes take place at about 1/4 realistic
SW> speed, since the average audience does not have the training to watch
SW> and understand faster fights.
Again, he is 100% correct.
Stage fighting is a beautiful art when done properly, but it bears little
resemblance to a real fight. Real fights are boring to watch if you do not
know what you are seeing. For instance, in "The Seven Samurai", the
shortest fight is comprised of about 20 seconds of staredown, half a second
of action, and one samurai is dead. The fight was over before the "action"
had began, but an untrained fighter will not see it.
For those who happen to be at Arisia this weekend, watch for TJ Glenn's
panel on stage fighting, probably Sunday morning.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Bugs
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>>>>> "O" == Opal <Opal@october.com> writes:
O> First off, Activation Rolls certianly don't conform to this.
No, but they do have a lower "base" roll for the same value limitation than
Requires Skill Roll.
O> Second, the power in question is likely to be low Apts, so a skill roll
O> would be pretty easy, whereas an Attack roll can be quite difficult...
Depends on the target in question. Kind of hard to miss a parked car at
point-blank range, no?
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
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>>>>> "R" == Rook <rook@infinex.com> writes:
R> How much would skills levels to offset time penalties on a task cost?
Um, no.
The "base time" to make a roll is the minimum (reasonable) time required to
accomplish the task. Failed rolls, and the extra time requirements to
reattempt the rolls, increase the time taken.
If a character performs spectacularly (ie, the player rolls a 3) then the
GM may decide that it takes half as much time as normally required (the
character lucks out somehow). This not something that a character should
be able to buy.
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:25:01 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Hurting yourself
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At 11:36 AM 1/14/98 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>A while back the list had a discussion about Champions' lack of rules to
>cover the 'effect' of punching something and accidentally hurting yourself.
>Here's a try:
Actually I've put in some rules to this effect in TUSV, appearing in the
First Draft like so:
Self-Inflicted Damage
Occasionally in comics and other sources of fiction a character attacks
another character and ends up actually doing more damage to himself than to
his target. This is usually done for comic effect; however, it's also
reasonably realistic. After all, if you punch a brick wall with all your
might, the only thing you're likely to break is your hand.
In hand-to-hand giant robot combat, this can be represented as shown
below. However, it should only be used when the robot is using its bare
"hands" — that is, when it's using part of itself as a weapon (so kicks
would count in this as well, even for less-than-humanoid robots). The GM
may make "hand"-held weapons subject to this rule, though the damage in
this case would be taken by the weapon, not by the vehicle.
When a hand-to-hand attack is completely absorbed by a target's DEF,
subtract the amount of BODY that was actually done from the DEF and divide
by two. This is the number of dice (including halves) of Normal damage
that the attacking vehicle will take, up to the same Damage Class of the
attack it was attempting. If Hit Locations are being used, the location
will automatically be the same "body" part that was being used for attack.
Notably, in vehicle combat this will only rarely do any real damage to the
attacker unless the target is considerably tougher.
The Move By and Move Through maneuvers have their own rules for
calculating damage done to the attacker. Those rules should generally be
used for those maneuvers. The GM may, however, elect to inflict the damage
done by whichever rule causes the most damage (though it will be rather
rare that this rule causes more).
As a further option, this rule may also be used on characters attacking
each other. As noted above, however, it's best reserved for realistic
campaigns, or when a humorous effect is desired.
I'm thinking of modifying this according to your suggestions:
>A.) In all cases, if the attack does knockback (or knockdown), the attacker
>shouldn't damage himself.
I'll halve the damage in this case. That way, damage will be minimal if
not absorbed altogether in most instances, though it can still happen.
>B.) Similarly, if the attacker damages a target (does BODY damage), he
>should not damage himself (target absorbs some of the punishment).
I think that's covered.
>C.) If A.) and B.) are not satisified, compare the DEF of the attacker and
>the DEF of the object/target. If the attacker's DEF is higher, the attacker
>does not take damage from the attack.
I'm not sure that's appropriate. Most of them time, if a high DEF
character attacks and does no damage, he takes no self-inflicted damage
because he was able to absorb the "backlash," not because he's tougher than
the target.
>D.) If the target's DEF is higher, the attacker takes (Target DEF - Attacker
>DEF)D6 of normal attack, up to the number of dice of attack.
As you can see, I relate the "backlash" damage to the original attack.
>E.) This works for weapons attacks too, but use the weapon's DEF in place of
>attacker's DEF, and the damage is applied to the weapon.
Good rule!
>F.) Martial Artists use DEFx1.5 to calculate their 'simulated' DEF when
>using martial arts attacks (they're used to hitting things) - this is
>partially balanced by the fact that MA attacks do less Knockback.
Suggestion: make that DEFx1.5 for Martial Arts attacks that do not
intrinsically add damage, DEFx2 for +2d6 attacks, DEFx2.5 for +4d6 attacks.
(I still use DEF to defend against the damage, and that's where I'd apply
the multipliers.)
>G.) Certain martial arts attacks that do not do damage through brute force
>(nerve strike, legsweep) should not be subject to these rules.
I'd say only those that roll Normal or Killing damage. A legsweep would
probably be subject to it -- though a throw would probably not.
>Examples:
And applying my rules to those examples:
>Green Dragon (PD 10) uses his Martial Strike (9D6) on Ogre (PD 28), and
>fails to do any knockback. Green Dragon suffers a (28-[10x1.5])=13D6 Attack,
>lowered to 9D6 b/c that's the maximum. Owch!
(28-9)/2 = 19/2 = 9; Green Dragon still gets 9d6. But he gets 20 PD to
defend against it (Martial Strike does +2d6, a 2X multiplier), so it'll
sting, but not too badly (11.5 STUN on an average roll).
>Seeker tries the same stunt (only he has 15PD and a 7D6 Martial Strike) on
>Ogre, and fails to do KB or BODY. 28-(15x1.5)=5 1/2D6 Normal Attack on
>Seeker. It'll sting a little, but not too bad.
(28-7)/5 = 21/2 = 10.5; Seeker gets the maximum 7d6. He gets 30 PD to
defend against it, so probably doesn't feel anything.
>Joe Normal (PD 2) punches Green Dragon (PD 10) with his fist (2D6). Joe
>Normal fails to do any knockback and suffers (10-2)=8D6, lowered to 2D6 b/c
>that's the maximum. That stings - the normal only has 2 PD (decent chance of
>doing himself BODY damage).
(10-2)/2 = 8/2 = 4; Joe takes the maximum 2d6, but only his 2 PD to
defend. (In other words, same end result.)
>Green Dragon uses his Martial Strike on Seeker (PD 15) and once again fails
>to do knockback. 15-(10x1.5)= 0, no damage.
(15-9)/2 = 6/2 = 3; he takes 3d6, which is guaranteed to bounce off the
20 PD he uses to defend.
>Seeker swings his Katana at Ogre, doing no knockback or BODY. The Katana is
>a 25 AP focus, so it has 5 DEF. 28-5=23D6, but the attack has a 10DC
>capacity. The Katana suffers a 10D6 normal attack, probably shattering it
>completely.
(28-10)/2 = 18/2 = 9; same probable result.
>Comments? This should keep martial artists from using 'brute force' on
>bricks - they're liable to hurt themselves. Not to mention break all their
>shiny toys.
I think my system is a little less harsh, but still will have the same
general result (and is arguably more realistic).
>I might also suggest that only the outermost defenses be counted for these
>purposes. i.e. if somebody hit Solitare with her FF up, they'd be facing a
>13PD rather than a 21 PD, b/c it isn't all really the same defense. Perhaps
>just the biggest single defense power/characteristic involved - to avoid the
>'Grond in a suit of chainmail, so it's safer to punch him' problem. Also,
>certain Armor SFX could render the point moot - nobody hurts his hand
>punching FluffyMan (30 DEF, but soft and fluffy).
That's a rule for some discussion....
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
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Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:41:03 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Targets
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 11:44 AM 1/14/98 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> >Speed Racer's Mach 5 :)
>>
>> I'm sure Michael Surbrook would be happy to post Speed Racer and the
>> Mach 5 after TUSV comes out. Or maybe he won't wait that long, since he
>> has an eval copy of the rough draft....
>
>Uh... no. I can't stand that show and have _no_ desire of writing up
>anything associated with it.
Oh, all right. We'll make Opal do it himself. :-]
---
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Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:41:03 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Targets
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 11:44 AM 1/14/98 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> >Speed Racer's Mach 5 :)
>>
>> I'm sure Michael Surbrook would be happy to post Speed Racer and the
>> Mach 5 after TUSV comes out. Or maybe he won't wait that long, since he
>> has an eval copy of the rough draft....
>
>Uh... no. I can't stand that show and have _no_ desire of writing up
>anything associated with it.
Oh, all right. We'll make Opal do it himself. :-]
---
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:48:07 -0800 (PST)
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>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "R" == Rook <rook@infinex.com> writes:
>
> R> How much would skills levels to offset time penalties on a task cost?
>
> Um, no.
>
> The "base time" to make a roll is the minimum (reasonable) time required to
> accomplish the task. Failed rolls, and the extra time requirements to
> reattempt the rolls, increase the time taken.
>
Here I disagree.
A character who can react to the world at light speed, and do in a mere
second what a normal can do in months, is a common special effect in speedster
comics.
If you can move and think at such speeds, you can do much more in a
shorter time. The question then becomes what is the best way to represent it
in Hero terms.
I already have an 8" radius change environment to let me do in one
second within an 16 meter radius anything I could accomplish normally in an
entire lifetime.
(I used this in our last game to read the public library for info on
the guy we were interviewing between sentences of the others, slowed only by
my running speed of 308.7 mph due to Hero's no FTL in atmosphere rule. Other
than that running limit, I can do most of the DC speedster tricks.)
> If a character performs spectacularly (ie, the player rolls a 3) then the
> GM may decide that it takes half as much time as normally required (the
> character lucks out somehow). This not something that a character should
> be able to buy.
>
Oh but it is. It's a common effect in the genre. Therefore it needs
a way of being represented.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at
some point.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:59:17 -0800 (PST)
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
>
> At 11:03 PM 1/13/98 -0800, Rook wrote:
> >How much would skills levels to offset time penalties on a task cost?
>
> On a specific task? I'd say 1 point each (the only cost less than
> general Skill Levels to a single Skill).
> On any task? I'd call it 5 points. Call it Overall Skill Levels, with
> a -1 Limitation "Only to Offset Time Penalties."
That sounds about right. Let me clarify what I'm trying to do:
Basically I can move at lightspeed, and can take more time to think and
analyze a situation due to this.
Two constructs seem to best represent this in Hero:
Change environment to do anything you could normally do in a given area all in
one instant. I have this.
And skill levels to offset time penalties to let you do a task that would
take days or weeks in a second.
The third option, which is not really an option, is to buy a 3000+ speed :) .
The question on these two options is, are they mutally exclusive? Or
do they both achieve the same ends. In other words, if I have the change
environment, do I need the skill levels?
My opinion is that I may need the skill levels to handle the mental
tasks. But I'm not fully sure here.
If I buy it for only mental tasks, something I would only do if it is
seen as obvious that 1) the change environment negates the need for physical
task adjustments, and 2) the change environment gives me no help on 'taking
time out to think'; then, as limited to mental, would the cost stay the same?
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at
some point.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 15:02:51 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 03:13 PM 1/14/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "R" == Rook <rook@infinex.com> writes:
>
>R> How much would skills levels to offset time penalties on a task cost?
>
>Um, no.
>
>The "base time" to make a roll is the minimum (reasonable) time required to
>accomplish the task. Failed rolls, and the extra time requirements to
>reattempt the rolls, increase the time taken.
>
>If a character performs spectacularly (ie, the player rolls a 3) then the
>GM may decide that it takes half as much time as normally required (the
>character lucks out somehow). This not something that a character should
>be able to buy.
It a trick is done fairly regularly by speedsters in the comics, and is
not (as far as I can tell) unbalancing to the system nor much of a plot
spoiler, and thus should be allowed.
"The mechanics of the game work a different way, so this can't be done"
is, as a rule, not a good argument. Doing a country mile worth of
Knockback is the only thing I've seen to date where I'd say that the system
is so weighted against it that it just can't be done without a full
alteration of the rules that affect it.
---
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Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:18:45 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> Um, no.
Here we go again.
> The "base time" to make a roll is the minimum (reasonable) time required to
> accomplish the task. Failed rolls, and the extra time requirements to
> reattempt the rolls, increase the time taken.
But the reasonable time is allowed to be decreased with penalties.
That's in there somewhere, I'll find it. If so, it is merely a penalty
that can be counteracted with levels like any other penalty.
> If a character performs spectacularly (ie, the player rolls a 3) then the
> GM may decide that it takes half as much time as normally required (the
> character lucks out somehow). This not something that a character should
> be able to buy.
Why? Because Rat says so? Doesn't work that way. This is the
best way to achieve many desired effects, effects that are part of the
source literature. Why do you want to disallow valid concepts?
-Tim Gilberg
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:20:51 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> >Let's see:
> >
> >40 Multipowr
> > 4 u 20" Flight
> >14 u 20/20 Force field, 1/2 END
> >24 u 12d EB
> >--
> >82
>
> This should cost a max of 52 = 40 + (3x(40/10))
Where do you get that? It's allowable for slots in a MP to be
worth more points than the active, in which case the slot ends up paying
for the amount that the MP doesn't cover. This is a valid, though terribly
inefficient, construction.
-Tim Gilberg
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:31:55 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Hurting yourself
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
>
> A while back the list had a discussion about Champions' lack of rules to
> cover the 'effect' of punching something and accidentally hurting yourself.
> Here's a try:
>
I like it. I had heard of somebody's house rule earlier where it was
'no damage' i.e. body or stun, but think it works better as just no body
with the adjustment for martial arts.
>
> Comments? This should keep martial artists from using 'brute force' on
> bricks - they're liable to hurt themselves. Not to mention break all their
> shiny toys.
>
Or for that matter, trying to punch their way out of cells, through walls,
etc. etc.
Curt
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From: aregalad@miami.edu
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 18:42:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Wish: Benchmarks (was: A Sample Character)
Cc: "aregalad@miami.edu" <aregalad@miami.edu&>
"champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Howdy!
> >My only point here is that there are skills based on PRE, DEX, STR just as
>
> Which skills are based on Str?
Hmmm...I don't have my book on me, and I honestly can't remember, but is
Climbing still based on STR? It was under 2nd Edition rules.
> >there are skills based on INT. Because of this - even in a game that
> >emphasizes skills over powers - INT is no more important than the other
> >stats.
>
> This is not so at all, in my experience.
Let me correct myself. There are probably more INT based skills than there
are skills based on any other characteristic. Still - INT is not the only
characteristic that affects skills, so the difference isn't as big as I
think you suggested.
> > Even if it were, this beside the point. I never said
> > INT wasn't effective.
>
> Agreed, but you vastly underrated its effectiveness in your original
> statement.
Perhaps. I know I didn't do so conceptually, but its possible that I did
so in writing. Seriously - thanks for taking the time to discuss it with
me. I'll definitely keep this in mind for future discussions.
> >My point is that if you are going to break down the
> >effectiveness of ALL characteristics these categories need to make
> >sense and to do so they should each make a difference in game play
> >(otherwise the categories mean nothing).
>
> I can agree with that, but it didn't come out in your original post.
Hmmm...well it WAS the crux of my argument (or it was meant to be).
> >That is why I can't understand why you feel my argument has been refuted
> >somehow. All I was arguing is that HERO needs to take these discrepancies
> >into consideration when they make their benchmark tables (if they make
> >'em). They either need to make the human maximum for INT (and maybe PRE)
> >much higher to give the granularity such benchmark tables need - or they
> >need to redefine the way INT works (all of Vox and Phantom's suggestions
> >were good, IMO).
>
> What you're not seeing is that Hero is really designed as a *SuperHero*
> game, where one hero will have Int 15 and another Int 40. In Heroic
> campaigns, then the reduced differential is reflected - see my seperate
> argument about Str.
I'm all too aware of HERO's origins and what the game was designed for.
I've been with the system since 1982. I also know that this initial design
shapes how the system plays out in all other genres. I'll agree with you
to that point. I don't agree that the reduced differential is reflected -
and I have not seen your seperate argument about STR. How do you see the
reduced differential being reflected?
> >Well, that is about as clear as I can be. If you still can't see my point,
> >I would appreciate an explanation of yours. I'd honestly be interested in
> >hearing your logic. Thanks for your time.
>
> Simply that in your original post you vastly underestimated the value
> of Int. You have since corrected this.
Well, I'm glad that through discussion we have been able to come to a
closer understanding of what I've been trying to communicate. As I said
earlier - In my mind I have never underestimated INT, but it is possible
that I wasn't clear enough in communicating my concerns.
Take care,
Dragonfly
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:10:33 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Kg to lbs (and back again)
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-- Filksinger wrote:
>
> HOLD IT! 2,850 kg is _not_ 6,270 lbs. Was this initial figure given in
> lbs or kg? If kg, we need to start over, as neither one of us has been
> doing this correctly.
Sorry, Filksinger, old son. 2850 kg x 2.2 (the conversion for
kilos to pounds) gives 6270 lbs with useable accuracy.
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
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Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:53:11 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> OK, one more question for help regarding The Ultimate Super Vehicle.
> I need help from those who are better informed than I about what
> equipment should be considered "standard" for all vehicles of various
> types. I especially need help with air and water vehicles, since it's been
> several years since I've been aboard either where I could get a clear of
> the controls, and the fershlugginer Britannica doesn't have this
> information (I remember that my old World Book did; I miss it).
> These are the lists as I currently have them:
>
> Air Vehicles:
> Altimeter Plus airspeed indicator, vertical speed indicator, compass system,
attitude indicator (which way is up?). All of these are considered basic
flight instruments.
> Beacon Lights Called Anti-collision lights or anti-collision strobes combined with
position lights ( the red and green lights that are at the left and right
extremities of the aircract)
> Climate Control Not always
> Fuel Gauge If you are going into fuel gauge level, include engine performance
moniters (engine speed, engine exhaust tempeture, power (or torque) supplied,
fire detection)
> Interior Lights
> Radar (360 degree, non-Discriminatory, non-Targeting) Again, not always.
> Radio (2-way) Actually, two or three seperate radios plus some navigation beacon
receivers
> Running Lights Helicopters also have searchlights that are rotatable as standard fit.
> Seat Belts
Another component that is required to be able to fly is an IFF
transponder to enable air traffic control to know who is flying in their
airspace. It also tells them how high the aircraft is.
>
> Ground Vehicles:
> Air Conditioning (except motorcycles)
> Cigarette Lighter
> Dome Light
> Engine Thermometer
> Fuel Gauge
> Headlights
> Locks for all doors
> Lock for the ignition
> Lock for the trunk
> Odometer
> Radio (AM/FM)
> Seat Belts & Air Bag
> Speedometer
> Turn Signals
> Windshield Wipers
>
> Water Vehicles:
> Fuel Gauge
> Interior Lights
> Lock for the ignition
> Running Lights
> Seat Belts
> Speedometer ANCHOR!!!!
>
> As you can see, I'm going to need some help with correct terminology
> here as well as the equipment itself.
> Keep in mind that this is equipment other than that directly associated
> with moving, turning, and so forth.
--
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Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
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Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 18:00:45 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Yeah, you're right here; they're uncommon enough that I think I'll
> strike the bags and let them be a "pay the points" item. (Then I gotta
> figure out how to build them... I'm thinking of a Limited sort of Knockback
> Resistance.)
How about 1/2 damage reduction, normal physical only, only from the
front.
--
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Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 06:21:19 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear.
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At 07:53 PM 1/14/98 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>On Tuesday, January 13, 1998 5:42 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>
><snip>
>>
>> Did you take into account: 1) Ranged is a +1/2 Advantage. 2)
>Ranged
>>still requires an Attack Roll vs the target hex, with Range
>Modifiers. 3)
>>That Teleport is Linked to Duplication.
>
>Ok, we'll go that route, if you insist. You forgot the 0 END on the
>Teleport.
>
>Duplication, 100 pt. duplicate, Ranged, No Range Modifier, 40 pts. +15
>OCV w/Duplication, 30 pts. Total: 70 pts.
>
>Duplication, 100 pt. duplicate, Linked to teleportation, 14 pts. 125"
>Teleportation, 0 END, 375 pts. Total: 389 pts.
>
>OK, so it is only 5.6 times more than the Teleportation.
>
>> There may be other elements to consider as well; these are just
>the ones
>>that came to my attention right off.
>
>
>You can add in Indirect, if you wish, I suppose. It won't help nearly
>enough, however.
Well, the Teleport method is still 'way too expensive, expecially
considering that the character would probably never use more than 20-25" of
it. I'd say go with the Ranged method.
---
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 06:24:26 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Radiation Mutation??
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At 09:30 PM 1/14/98 EST, KaosLlama wrote:
>one of my players wanted to know what the chance of random mutation would be
>under the correct ideals.. any ideas?
In real life, it's a hard call. I think even geneticists and
radiological scientists don't quite know the answer.
For game purposes, call it Plot Device -- it happens if the GM feels
like it (generally, but not necessarily, subject to the player's approval).
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 06:58:43 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
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At 09:25 PM 1/14/98 -0500, Daniel Pawtowski wrote:
>>
>> That's probably more like it.
>> Hm.... perhaps an actual thermometer should be Detect with
>> Discriminatory and Exact Measure?
>
> It is going to be tricky if you try to buy every gauge individually.
That's why I'm lumping a lot of this into Everyvehicle Equipment. :-]
>Here's an idea: How about have an airliner buy PS: Commercial Aircraft
>(or a ship/fighter/etc buy the appropriate one) to represent the
>engine monitoring gear? If you want to determine what the engine temp
>is, have the character operating it make an appropriate roll, and
>the vehicle's skill is complimentary. Highly automated vehicles
>would have a higher roll. Things like determining fuel remaining in
>normal cruise would require no roll. Something like using the
>engine diagnostics to determine which piston the Desolid gremlin is
>hiding inside would take penalties.
This, I think, is an idea for Diagnostic systems such as might be found
on the Enterprise (or even certain real-world vehicles, methinks).
> Along these lines, I usually buy a toolbox as a Mechanic Skill rather
>than Fine Manipulation No-Range TK, or whatever.
A toolbox IMO is Levels with Mechanics, but not the Skill itself. :-]
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 07:07:08 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
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At 08:56 PM 1/15/98 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
>-- Due to some really crappy translation from what I typed to what I
>sent, there was something that I had written as standard equipment for
>water craft that was made to look like part of the quote.
>
> The equipment? Boat anchors. In a push, any old computer will
>do.
An anchor... on a speedboat?
Hm. I wonder how an anchor would be written up in Hero terms?
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Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 15:28:51 -0000
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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>>> The power is called "Change Environment", or maybe a Transformation
>>> attack, depending on what it is he is doing.
>
>BG> So would a lightning-fast Lockpicking ability be Transform (locked
>lock
>BG> to unlocked lock)? If so, why would it be more difficult to pick a lock
>BG> with high BODY than one with low BODY?
>
>Note that I said, "or maybe a Transformation attack, depending on what he
>is doing." This is not me saying that Transformation is the way to do
>everything, this is me sayign that Transformation may be appropriate for
>something unusual.
Well sir, if you won't allow skill levels, "only to offset time
penalties", how would _you_ simulate someone who can do things
extrodinarily fast? This would include using his skills as well as
generic "Change Environment" type effects.
On a Side Note:
Now, I'm not saying that you do this but...
Simply saying someone else's idea is not valid is little help.
Telling the list the alternatives that you feel simulate the construct in
question is of immense help.
Just a general reminder, and not to single anyone out.
David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:18:30 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
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At 11:02 AM 1/15/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "BW" == Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes:
>
>BW> A character who can react to the world at light speed, and do in a
>BW> mere second what a normal can do in months, is a common special effect
>BW> in speedster comics.
>
>The power is called "Change Environment", or maybe a Transformation attack,
>depending on what it is he is doing.
So would a lightning-fast Lockpicking ability be Transform (locked lock
to unlocked lock)? If so, why would it be more difficult to pick a lock
with high BODY than one with low BODY?
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:18:59 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
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At 11:07 AM 1/15/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>TRG> Why? Because Rat says so? Doesn't work that way. This is the
>TRG> best way to achieve many desired effects, effects that are part of the
>TRG> source literature. Why do you want to disallow valid concepts?
>
>Because it is not a valid concept -- normals can buy skill levels, but not
>use them to make them go faster. If you allow speedsters to buy "skill
>levels: decreased time", you have radically changed how the system works
>for a limited category of characters. That is blatantly unfair to everyone
>else.
Aren't a lot of mechanics limited to a limited category of characters?
Things like STR, EC, Multipower, Martial Arts....
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:34:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Radiation Mutation??
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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KaosLlama writes:
> one of my players wanted to know what the chance of random mutation would
> be under the correct ideals.. any ideas?
>
Huh? This is a somewhat unclear question (correct ideals). In any case, the
odds of a specific individual having a random mutation approach 100%. The odds
of a specific person having a mutation that _does_ anything are much lower.
The odds of radiation exposure causing mutations in cells also approaches 100%;
the odds of a detectable mutation roughly matches the odds of developing
cancer, as there is essentially zero chance of a detectable mutation _other_
than cancer.
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:21:09 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
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On 15 Jan 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> TRG> Why? Because Rat says so? Doesn't work that way. This is the
> TRG> best way to achieve many desired effects, effects that are part of the
> TRG> source literature. Why do you want to disallow valid concepts?
>
> Because it is not a valid concept -- normals can buy skill levels, but not
> use them to make them go faster. If you allow speedsters to buy "skill
> levels: decreased time", you have radically changed how the system works
> for a limited category of characters. That is blatantly unfair to everyone
> else.
I think what Rat is getting at is that since skill levels don't have as
one of their abilities "do job X in less time," it's not correct to
"limit" the skill level by saying "only to speed up job X." Although you
could limit a skill level "only vs. time *penalties*"--for those uncommon
instances in play where the GM says something like "you're at -4 because
you're trying to get done in a half-hour what should be done in an hour."
But these situations are fuzzy GM-declared penalties. The rules don't make
clear that there is a reverse of "extra time"--and to me, the penalties
would be much greater for each step *down* the time chart (1/5th the
normaltime!)--*if* I would allow them at all.
In other words, Skill levels have one ability: to give +1 to a skill roll.
I think Rat is pointing out that while you can limit the circumstances
under which you get the +1... like "only in darkness" or "only when used
to offset time penalties." However, under the most salient interpretation
of the rules, +1 one to a skill roll does not equate to a faster result,
it simply means a better result, or more specifically a greater chance for
success.
Now, that's the rules as they currently stand. Don't confuse it with my
opinion of how things *should* be. Remember, earlier we talked about a
skill system in which the skill roll determined how long the job took.
Some of us found the example in the book distasteful (Chiron takes an hour
because he's in no hurry to pick the lock that would normally take 12
seconds, so he gets a +3--page 18). That's because, in reality we don't
say "I'm gonna spend, um..., an hour on this," then at the end, see if we
were successful. In reality, we start working until we succeed or realize
we're not getting anywhere.
What's needed for the skill levels vs. time to work is a mechanic like the
one I was looking for, where the more you make your roll by, the less time
the job takes, and if you miss it, you can keep working until the roll
says you succeed. Mark suggested that for each 2 you make the roll by,
step down on the time chart, for each 2 you miss by, step up on the time
chart. The GM would obviously have to make these rolls and tick off time
telling the player he's still working on it, until the player says he
wants to stop, or the GM tells the player he's successful. This also helps
the try, try again syndrome some players exhibit when they fail rolls,
since there is not much penalty if any for retries, where possible, in the
hero system.
However, the time chart makes steps in order of magnitude, and that's a
little too hefty for my tastes. Someone who could do job X in half the
time is probably considered significantly more skilled than someone who
did it in the "par" time, but our time chart doesn't allow that kind of
flexibility. Furthermore, even the mechanic of the year can fix your car
in a phase if the default time was 1 hour. So my complex first pass at a
suggestion that for each 1 you make the roll by, subtract 10% from the par
time, cumulative. This generates more realistic results, but still the GM
must step in and cap the possibilities by what is physically possible. For
each 1 you miss the roll by, double the time (cumulative). This way
players can pick up more reasonable extra time bonuses continuously, if
they are willing and able to keep working until they succeed. That is--if
it's that kind of job. Most of the time, real-world contraints dictate how
long someone can spend on a task.
This new approach to defining how +1 to a skill correlates with time may
or may not help your speedster. Rat points out that speedsters are a
different class from normals, but the system has to work for both. It's
not correct to say "if normals can't buy it, it's not legal," since
normals usually can't buy superpowers at all. But the skill system has to
work for both, since it's shared territory. So if I make my skill roll by
6 or 7, I'm getting close to doing a job in half par time in my
suggestion--but that rapidly gets expensive for speedsters. That's because
I use skill levels to represent expertise, not a manifestation of power
(although the SFX on a skill level can be whatever you want, that
underlying concept model on the pricing, etc., will still be there--that's
the "spirit" behind the letter of the system.) So, as others suggested, I
think your speedster effects are best represented by a power. You need a
power that will shift the par time to perform a task down by orders of
magnitude. Speed already does this, sort of (unless we think of speed as
just a "combat" thing) But like levels, each doubling gets more and more
obscenely expensive--even if you were to limit the speed "only to perform
noncombat skills in less time, -5" it would be very expensive. The problem
is that even at speed 12 you are considered to act only 6x faster than the
normal man (and are entitled to only 1 "par time" bump on the time chart.)
We must turn to the powers of last resort, CE and Transform, if you want
to be "Pure HERO." CE looks good. Get the reasonable area, and define your
CE as "any noncombat actions my character could perform in X time", and
limit it, extra time: 1 phase.
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "aregalad@miami.edu" <aregalad@miami.edu&>
"champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 19:08:28
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Wish: Benchmarks (was: A Sample Character)
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On Wed, 14 Jan 1998 18:42:01 -0500 (EST), aregalad@miami.edu wrote:
>Howdy!
>
>> >My only point here is that there are skills based on PRE, DEX, STR just as
>>
>> Which skills are based on Str?
>
>Hmmm...I don't have my book on me, and I honestly can't remember, but is
>Climbing still based on STR? It was under 2nd Edition rules.
Try *none* (HSR pp 19-20)
>> >there are skills based on INT. Because of this - even in a game that
>> >emphasizes skills over powers - INT is no more important than the other
>> >stats.
>>
>> This is not so at all, in my experience.
>
>Let me correct myself. There are probably more INT based skills than there
>are skills based on any other characteristic. Still - INT is not the only
>characteristic that affects skills, so the difference isn't as big as I
>think you suggested.
But it's the cheapest. to increase the stat to give a +1 in all INT
based skills you have to spend 5 points on INT, likewise a +1 in PRE
based skills cost 5 pts, but for DEX based skills it costs 15 pts.
>> > Even if it were, this beside the point. I never said
>> > INT wasn't effective.
>>
>> Agreed, but you vastly underrated its effectiveness in your original
>> statement.
>
>Perhaps. I know I didn't do so conceptually, but its possible that I did
>so in writing. Seriously - thanks for taking the time to discuss it with
>me. I'll definitely keep this in mind for future discussions.
>
>> >My point is that if you are going to break down the
>> >effectiveness of ALL characteristics these categories need to make
>> >sense and to do so they should each make a difference in game play
>> >(otherwise the categories mean nothing).
>>
>> I can agree with that, but it didn't come out in your original post.
>
>Hmmm...well it WAS the crux of my argument (or it was meant to be).
>
>> >That is why I can't understand why you feel my argument has been refuted
>> >somehow. All I was arguing is that HERO needs to take these discrepancies
>> >into consideration when they make their benchmark tables (if they make
>> >'em). They either need to make the human maximum for INT (and maybe PRE)
>> >much higher to give the granularity such benchmark tables need - or they
>> >need to redefine the way INT works (all of Vox and Phantom's suggestions
>> >were good, IMO).
>>
>> What you're not seeing is that Hero is really designed as a *SuperHero*
>> game, where one hero will have Int 15 and another Int 40. In Heroic
>> campaigns, then the reduced differential is reflected - see my seperate
>> argument about Str.
>
>I'm all too aware of HERO's origins and what the game was designed for.
>I've been with the system since 1982. I also know that this initial design
>shapes how the system plays out in all other genres. I'll agree with you
>to that point. I don't agree that the reduced differential is reflected -
>and I have not seen your seperate argument about STR. How do you see the
>reduced differential being reflected?
I'm having serious thoughts about the Stat/3 power curve suggested -
after all we are precedented with DEX and CV.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>> The power is called "Change Environment", or maybe a Transformation
>> attack, depending on what it is he is doing.
BG> So would a lightning-fast Lockpicking ability be Transform (locked lock
BG> to unlocked lock)? If so, why would it be more difficult to pick a lock
BG> with high BODY than one with low BODY?
Note that I said, "or maybe a Transformation attack, depending on what he
is doing." This is not me saying that Transformation is the way to do
everything, this is me sayign that Transformation may be appropriate for
something unusual.
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:13:54 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> TRG> Why? Because Rat says so? Doesn't work that way. This is the
> TRG> best way to achieve many desired effects, effects that are part of the
> TRG> source literature. Why do you want to disallow valid concepts?
>
> Because it is not a valid concept -- normals can buy skill levels, but not
> use them to make them go faster. If you allow speedsters to buy "skill
> levels: decreased time", you have radically changed how the system works
> for a limited category of characters. That is blatantly unfair to everyone
> else.
However, any skill comes with a set amount of time to do it in.
It is permissable to take less time with skill penalties or more time with
skill bonuses. There exists the mechanic for doing any type of normal
skill more quickly than normal. Skill levels can be used to add generally
to the roll of a skill, or to add points to counteract negative bonuses:
Things like, "only to offset darkness penalties", or "only to offset lack
of equipment penalties". Therefore, there should be no problem in a
Speedster buying skill levels, "only to offset penalties for time taken".
Why do you have a problem with this blatantly legal and fair
construction?
-Tim Gilberg
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
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>>>>> "DF" == David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> writes:
DF> Well sir, if you won't allow skill levels, "only to offset time
DF> penalties", how would _you_ simulate someone who can do things
DF> extrodinarily fast? This would include using his skills as well as
DF> generic "Change Environment" type effects.
With the aforementioned Change Environment. CE does not obviate the skill
roll; you still need to make it. What CE does is get the job faster than
possible for mortal man... such as assembling a car engine in 10 seconds.
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:43:03 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Erratum:
I wrote:
> However, the time chart makes steps in order of magnitude, and that's a
> little too hefty for my tastes. Someone who could do job X in half the
> time is probably considered significantly more skilled than someone who
> did it in the "par" time, but our time chart doesn't allow that kind of
> flexibility. Furthermore, even the mechanic of the year can fix your car
> in a phase if the default time was 1 hour.
The "can" in the last sentence should have been "can't." A big difference.
So my complex first pass at a
Addendum:
I wrote:
> We must turn to the powers of last resort, CE and Transform, if you want
> to be "Pure HERO." CE looks good. Get the reasonable area, and define
> your CE as "any noncombat actions my character could perform in X time",
> and limit it, extra time: 1 phase.
Your GM should be very careful in helping set the value of X. At the GM's
option, if X is 1 hour (so that you can in a phase do what mere mortals do
in an hour) and you do 1 phase worth of actions using your CE, then you
might get the +4 "extra time" bonus. A tradeoff is that moving so fast
costs you END. If only we had the variable CE on everybody's Christmas
list.
Frankly, I would fudge a bit and call the "area" the amount of time you
get to perform actions (although still limiting you to the radius of your
1-phase running speed). That way you can get faster by spending more
points, not wider. Each +5 points would be a step on the time chart rather
than a doubling of hex area, let's say. So X=1hour would be 20 points
base. This qualifies for the +1 "vary environment (within tight SFX)
"advantage listed under CE, so now we have 40 points, about right for the
potent ability. I would then, were I your GM, require you to take the
"increased END cost" limitation at x3 or higher. After all, you are
pushing yourself to a hyper-speed state. This makes the choice of how fast
you're going to go in your "time bubble" an issue, making for more
interesting play. You will also need No Range, since the effect is
centered on you. Were I your GM, I would further "coolify" the power by
requiring "Requires a skill roll" (!) with your CE. I would use the
results like a reverse complementary skill roll on your task. Failing the
CE skill roll would give you -1 per missed pip on all tasks performed
during hyperspeed time due to your inability to fully control your
superspeed state. This further encourages you to set variable amounts of
time usage, and not go "all out" all the time. Were I your GM.
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
TRG> However, any skill comes with a set amount of time to do it in.
Yes; this is the minimum ammount of time required to accomplish the task.
This is normally a significant chunk of one's action phase (check the BBB
for the exact timing).
TRG> It is permissable to take less time with skill penalties or more time
TRG> with skill bonuses. There exists the mechanic for doing any type of
TRG> normal skill more quickly than normal.
No, there exists a mechanic for doing any type of normal skill more
*slowly* than normal, but there is not one for performing it more quickly
outside of the GM's discretion.
TRG> Skill levels can be used to add generally to the roll of a skill, or
TRG> to add points to counteract negative bonuses: Things like, "only to
TRG> offset darkness penalties", or "only to offset lack of equipment
TRG> penalties". Therefore, there should be no problem in a Speedster
TRG> buying skill levels, "only to offset penalties for time taken".
TRG> Why do you have a problem with this blatantly legal and fair
TRG> construction?
Because neither you nor I can assemble a car engine, an 8-hour job, in 8
seconds, regardless of how many skill levels with Mechanics we buy, the
same skill levels that a speedster will buy. Why should the speedster, for
a *LIMITATION*, get more out of his skill levels than you or I, who paid
more for them?
That is blatantly *UN*fair, regardless of the mechanical legality.
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:47:35 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Superspeed power skill levels vs time
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Curt Hicks wrote:
> The last time this came up, I posted somebody's suggestion for a superspeed
> power. Basically, for every 10 points in 'Superspeed' it let you accomplish
> something out of combat at the next quicker interval on the time chart.
> I really liked the idea, unfortunately, I don't remember the author.
Good. I especially like how the points work out exactly with the
area->time CE approach. Is this a consensus in HERO?
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 22:01:56
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On 14 Jan 98 23:34:04 -0800, Opal wrote:
>Same goes for F/X, if Ice Knight has all ice-based powers, he's
>virtually helpless against the nefarious Defroster, while Equinox
>with both Fire- and Ice- based powers can torch Defroster like
>a Christmas tree in july. Ice Knight saves more points putting
>everything he has in an EC, while Equinox has his powers split
>up into an Ice-based Framework, and a Fire-based Framework, and
>doesn't save as many.
Actually, Equinox has one Framework, but VSFX (+1/4) on his powers.
This is very near the example given on p 99 of HSR
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 22:06:53
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:18:30 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 11:02 AM 1/15/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>>>>>> "BW" == Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes:
>>
>>BW> A character who can react to the world at light speed, and do in a
>>BW> mere second what a normal can do in months, is a common special effect
>>BW> in speedster comics.
>>
>>The power is called "Change Environment", or maybe a Transformation attack,
>>depending on what it is he is doing.
>
> So would a lightning-fast Lockpicking ability be Transform (locked lock
>to unlocked lock)? If so, why would it be more difficult to pick a lock
>with high BODY than one with low BODY?
How about using something along the lines of Extra-dimensional
Movement, Continuous
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 22:10:07
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:20:51 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>
>> >Let's see:
>> >
>> >40 Multipowr
>> > 4 u 20" Flight
>> >14 u 20/20 Force field, 1/2 END
>> >24 u 12d EB
>> >--
>> >82
>>
>> This should cost a max of 52 = 40 + (3x(40/10))
>
>
> Where do you get that? It's allowable for slots in a MP to be
>worth more points than the active, in which case the slot ends up paying
>for the amount that the MP doesn't cover. This is a valid, though terribly
>inefficient, construction.
Not according to my copy of the HSR (p114). What you can do is have
another power outside the MP which is Linked to the power in the MP.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 22:15:56
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On 14 Jan 98 23:14:02 -0800, Opal wrote:
> q > From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
> q > On 13 Jan 98 20:18:04 -0800, Opal wrote:
> q > > t > From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
> q > > t > > I did _not_ say Frameworks when I meant Elemental Control. I
> q > > t > > Frameworks", so obviously I was admitting there was more than
> q > > t > > Multipower can easily be a far greater point crock than EC,
> q > and VPP can be even worse.
> q > > t >
> q > > t > Can you get into situations with Multipower and VPP where
> q > reducing the
> q > > t > level of an ability results in a higher cost? (Or vice-versa) I
> q > > t > haven't
> q > > t > been able to find any.
> q > > t >
> q > >
> q > >Let's see:
> q > >
> q > >40 Multipowr
> q > > 4 u 20" Flight
> q > >14 u 20/20 Force field, 1/2 END
> q > >24 u 12d EB
> q > >--
> q > >82
> q >
> q > This should cost a max of 52 = 40 + (3x(40/10))
> q > qts
>
>Actually, it would be 74 - there's a 40, 50, & 60 pt slot each,
>not 3 40pt slots. But, though clearly ineficient, it is a legal
>construct....thus meeting tbarrie's challenge.
Where does it say that the points in a multipower power can exceed the
points in the multipower itself? One of the drawbacks of a MP is that
it limits the total AP of the effects within the MP.
Note the example on p114 of the HSR - when the player wishes to
increase the power of an effect by 2AP, he has to increase the size of
the MP by 2 pts.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 22:20:49
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Instead of having Everyvehicle equipment, why not do what another
poster does with his PCs, and allow them anything that the *vehicle's*
point level of wealth would allow? This neatly sidesteps the need for
the GM to define everything.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:21:45 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> DF> Well sir, if you won't allow skill levels, "only to offset time
> DF> penalties", how would _you_ simulate someone who can do things
> DF> extrodinarily fast? This would include using his skills as well as
> DF> generic "Change Environment" type effects.
>
> With the aforementioned Change Environment. CE does not obviate the skill
> roll; you still need to make it. What CE does is get the job faster than
> possible for mortal man... such as assembling a car engine in 10 seconds.
Really? That's interesting. I'm assuming you have a book quote
for this? As I really can't remember CE doing anything of the sort.
-Tim Gilberg
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
Mail-Copies-To: never
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
TRG> Really? That's interesting. I'm assuming you have a book quote
TRG> for this? As I really can't remember CE doing anything of the sort.
Mabe you should read the BBB sometime. Change Environment allows for
practically any change to the environment (surroundings). The only serious
restriction on it is that it cannot have more than a superficial effect on
combat.
The "10 seconds" example is flavor.
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:44:45 PST
From: "Ceballos,John" <John_Ceballos@xn.xerox.com>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
Posting-date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:50:01 -0500
Priority: normal
Hop-count: 3
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Please get rid of this address (John_Ceballos@xn.xerox.com) from the
list and replace it with ceballos@eecs.umich.edu. Thanks!
----------
From: owner-champ-l@omg.org
To: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
Date: Thursday, January 15, 1998 7:28AM
>>> The power is called "Change Environment", or maybe a Transformation
>>> attack, depending on what it is he is doing.
>
>BG> So would a lightning-fast Lockpicking ability be Transform (locked
>lock
>BG> to unlocked lock)? If so, why would it be more difficult to pick a lock
>BG> with high BODY than one with low BODY?
>
>Note that I said, "or maybe a Transformation attack, depending on what he
>is doing." This is not me saying that Transformation is the way to do
>everything, this is me sayign that Transformation may be appropriate for
>something unusual.
Well sir, if you won't allow skill levels, "only to offset time
penalties", how would _you_ simulate someone who can do things
extrodinarily fast? This would include using his skills as well as
generic "Change Environment" type effects.
On a Side Note:
Now, I'm not saying that you do this but...
Simply saying someone else's idea is not valid is little help.
Telling the list the alternatives that you feel simulate the construct in
question is of immense help.
Just a general reminder, and not to single anyone out.
David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:49:29 -0800 (PST)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> > TRG> Why? Because Rat says so? Doesn't work that way. This is the
> > TRG> best way to achieve many desired effects, effects that are part of the
> > TRG> source literature. Why do you want to disallow valid concepts?
> >
> > Because it is not a valid concept -- normals can buy skill levels, but not
> > use them to make them go faster. If you allow speedsters to buy "skill
>
> I think what Rat is getting at is that since skill levels don't have as
> one of their abilities "do job X in less time," it's not correct to
> "limit" the skill level by saying "only to speed up job X." Although you
> --and to me, the penalties
> would be much greater for each step *down* the time chart (1/5th the
> normaltime!)--*if* I would allow them at all.
>
[Major snip of lots of useful points]
>
> We must turn to the powers of last resort, CE and Transform, if you want
> to be "Pure HERO." CE looks good. Get the reasonable area, and define your
> CE as "any noncombat actions my character could perform in X time", and
> limit it, extra time: 1 phase.
>
I think you have a good point here.
So it seems a good choice would to be use Change Environment to allow me to
all the things I normally could given any amount of time in a single moment.
Then use a normal skill roll to see if I can suceed at those things
given my skill knowledge of them and ability to do the task in the first place.
I don't think the tranform would need to come into play here just yet.
Not unless I could do something 'unusual' given 'all that time'.
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at
some point.
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:51:36 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 02:16 PM 1/15/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>
>>> The power is called "Change Environment", or maybe a Transformation
>>> attack, depending on what it is he is doing.
>
>BG> So would a lightning-fast Lockpicking ability be Transform (locked
lock
>BG> to unlocked lock)? If so, why would it be more difficult to pick a lock
>BG> with high BODY than one with low BODY?
>
>Note that I said, "or maybe a Transformation attack, depending on what he
>is doing." This is not me saying that Transformation is the way to do
>everything, this is me sayign that Transformation may be appropriate for
>something unusual.
Well, I can't see a lightning-fast Lockpicking being a Change
Environment.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:04:38 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Superspeed power skill levels vs time
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
(pardon the possible repost, I haven't seen this show up yet.)
The last time this came up, I posted somebody's suggestion for a superspeed
power. Basically, for every 10 points in 'Superspeed' it let you accomplish
something out of combat at the next quicker interval on the time chart.
I really liked the idea, unfortunately, I don't remember the author.
Curt Hicks
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 15 Jan 1998 18:06:41 -0500
Lines: 42
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "BW" == Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes:
BW> I think you have a good point here.
BW> So it seems a good choice would to be use Change Environment to allow
BW> me to all the things I normally could given any amount of time in a
BW> single moment.
BW> Then use a normal skill roll to see if I can suceed at those things
BW> given my skill knowledge of them and ability to do the task in the
BW> first place.
This is almost exactly what I said, just a bit longer. :)
BW> I don't think the tranform would need to come into play here just yet.
BW> Not unless I could do something 'unusual' given 'all that time'.
A Transformation Attack could be used when you do not have the requisite
skill. To wit, lacking Lockpicking, you transform a locked lock into an
unlocked lock. To forestall the BODY question, the reason a bigger lock
(more BODY) is harder to open than a smaller one (less BODY) in this
fashion is because you are not picking the lock you are changing it at a
more fundamental level.
Anyone wondering how a "Wizard Lock" worked? Now you know; it is the
reverse of this.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 4.0 Business Edition
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNL6Wf56VRH7BJMxHAQFAWwQAhuUvnV35i08nGtd6Aoun9QocqU+qyZb6
RVThW2GYikBkc9YbWEHXCkP9n1/9aT2TnbsXh7FLToGEoIaHc14H2PCoWt9mH4UJ
0OnNHznXY5GvMxq0pxTDJHqUTDr4SogGiFZzf3E18WDaPvEyAObtEC86u/NCHcSu
EZHA7wmX3Bo=
=ZG8l
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
\
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:23:32 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> TRG> Really? That's interesting. I'm assuming you have a book quote
> TRG> for this? As I really can't remember CE doing anything of the sort.
>
> Mabe you should read the BBB sometime. Change Environment allows for
> practically any change to the environment (surroundings). The only serious
> restriction on it is that it cannot have more than a superficial effect on
> combat.
However, I have a real problem with CE affecting "objects". IE, I
can see it being used to straighten up a room or switching around a few
cards, but using it to chop down a tree or take apart an engine is too
powerful.
This power is designed to affect the "environment". The problem
is defining the environment. Could I, for example, write out a computer
program at incredible speed with this? Is the computer part of the
environment? How about picking the pockets of some nearby bystanders?
They're not part of the action, so there's no combat effect. Is this
permissible?
Your interpretation gives the power too much power, IMO.
-Tim Gilberg
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:28:52 -0800
matt@greenapple.com, david1001@geocities.com,
Hero Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org&>
Joel Greenwade <NOYZsYzOp@aol.com&> Kevin Walters <KWalt@aol.com&>
klockk@klock.com, "Michael L. Nunn" <MLNunn@scrtc.blue.net&>
rick@flyingbuffalo.com, sjgraves@coqui.net, sfannon@mail.ieidesign.com,
shelley@mactyre.net, Steve Today <sftoday@netwave.net&>
SteveL1979@aol.com, Will Austin <wga@po.cwru.edu&>
Erik Yocum <ecy@umich.edu&> Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com&>
"Stephen B. Mann" <smann@cnsvax.albany.edu&>
Leslie Richardson <lrichard@minn.net&>
Steve McGinness <smcginn@csm.exeter.ac.uk&>
Miq Millman <miq@teleport.com&> Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com&>
Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com&>
Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net&>
Charles Badger <wbandsis@westco.net&>
Steven Wells <slwells@ucdavis.edu&> Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@airmail.net&>
Brad Short <Firelynx16@aol.com&> "Keith E. Bryan" <Spobb@aol.com&>
Duane Morris <duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca&>
Doug Mowery <rlewis@lonestar.utsa.edu&>
Dwayne Tucker <dstucker@sprynet.com&>
Mark Barltrop <tachyon@kzin.softnet.co.uk&>
Len Undy <bryce144@fan.net.au&>
Larry Woestman <Larry@hpcvxljw.cv.hp.com&>
Chris Goodwin <archer@peak.org&>
Scott Nyquist <scott_nyquist@om.cv.hp.com>
From: Colleen Greenwade <colleen.greenwade@klock.com> (by way of Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com&>
Subject: Fw: A little one in need.....please help
Cc: brucehh@aol.com, mlnunn@aol.com
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>Reply-To: "James & Monique Doherty" <jdoherty@terrigal.net.au>
>From: "James & Monique Doherty" <jdoherty@terrigal.net.au>
>To: "Terri" <llibby@oz.net&> "Tabitha" <yel@bitstorm.net&>
> "Sueben" <sueben@n-link.com&>
> "Pam & Gordan Oates" <pamoates@gist.net.au&>
> "Margie" <duncanmp@southcom.com.au&>
> "Susan Logan" <tlogan@mindspring.com&>
> "Colleen Greenwade" <colleen.greenwade@klock.com&>
> "ECpert" <juliec@mail.chariot.net.au&>
> "Dreamsaver" <dreamsaver@webtv.net&>
> "Leah & calvin" <leahandcalvin@juno.com&>
> "Brenda" <luvmykdz@webtv.net&> "Mark & Lise Bower"
<mlbower@midco.net>
>Subject: Fw: A little one in need.....please help
>Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:38:02 +1100
>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3
>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Julie Chardon <juliec@mail.chariot.net.au>
>To: JeanBean1@webtv.net <JeanBean1@webtv.net>
>Date: Thursday, 15 January 1998 5:07
>
>
>>
>> >>> >Dear All,
>>> >>> >I just received this mail from a friend of mine
>>in my College. Please respond to it. It will just mean
>>employing a little bit of time and won't cost you a
>>penny. All it needs is the heart for you to send this
>>mail. PLEASE pass this mail on to everybody you know.
>>It is the request of a little girl who will soon leave
>>this world as she has been a victim of the terrible
>>disease called CANCER. Thank you for your effort, this
>>isn't a chain letter, but a choice for all of us to
>>provide some comfort to a little girl that's dying of a
>>serious and fatal form of cancer.
>> >Please send this to everyone you know... or don't know.
>>This little girl has 6 months left to live, and as her
>>dying wish,she wanted to send a chain letter telling
>>everyone to live their life to fullest, since she never
>>will. She'll never make it to prom, graduate from high
>>school, or get married and have a family of her own.
>>By you sending this to as many people as possible, you
>>can give her and her family a little hope, because with
>>every
>>name that this is sent to, The American Cancer Society
>>will donate 3 cents per name to her treatment and
>>recovery plan. One guy sent this to 500 people!!!!
>>So,I know that we can send it to at least 5 or 6. Come
>>on you
>>guys.... and if you're too selfish to take 10-15 minutes
>>scrolling this and forwarding it to EVERYONE, then you
>>are one sick person.
>> >Just think it could be you one day. It's not even
>>your_money_,just your time!!!
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > PLEASE PASS ON
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> >Dr. Dennis Shields
>>> >>> >Professor
>>> >>> >Department of Developmental and Molecular Biology
>>> >>> >Albert Einstein College of Medicine of Yeshiva
>>University
>>> >>> >1300 Morris Park Avenue
>>> >>> >Bronx, New York 10461
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 4,11,18,21,26-29
From: willypete1@juno.com (WILLIAM A PETERSON)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:55:52 EST
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
I've spent much time and effort trying to deal with the various
'point crocks' inherent to Champions, and all I can really say is that it
is a thankless task. No matter how you tweak it, you still can't please
everyone any of the time, and only rarely can you please even yourself
more than some of the time.
My current theory (as yet unproven), is that the best idea is to
limit character's Active point totals (after advantages, but before
limitations), and not place any limit(other than being able to pay for it
all) on 'Real' points. This still doesn't help things like hand-to-hand
attack or aid (where the wrong cost was assigned in the first place), and
I still am unsure as to what the 'Active' cost of a Framework should be,
but I think it is a good start.
The simple truth is that some game systems are much better at
modelling some things than others. The whole 'Speedster Tricks'
discussion would never have come up on the DC Heroes mailing list--just
give the character Superspeed, and you're all set. You don't have to
worry about using Transformation attacks, Skill Levels, or Change
Environment (of course, that's true of Champions, too--if you can afford
a Speed of 144!). Does this mean that DC Heroes is perfectly balanced?
Hah! Each game has it's own strong points, and I have yet to see one
game combine the strong points of both, without getting hopelessly
muddled.
Yes, Champions is hopelessly broken, in that it does not (and
never will) have a character generation system that satisfies everybody.
Once you get past character generation, though (and I know just how hard
that is), Champions is still one of the best games to play on this planet
or any other (and no, I don't include Fuzion in that comment).
Thank you,
William Anders Peterson
WillyPete1@juno.com
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Hurting yourself
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,4-7
From: willypete1@juno.com (WILLIAM A PETERSON)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:55:53 EST
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
It all depends on the 'feel' you want.
In the real world, people hurt themselves all the time...although trained
martial artists much less so. In the comic books, the only characters
who manage to do so are the ones with the large 'Kick Me' signs on thier
backs--the ones put there for comic relief.
Thank you,
William Anders Peterson
WillyPete1@juno.com
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:34:38 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Superspeed power skill levels vs time
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 05:04 PM 1/15/98 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote:
>
>(pardon the possible repost, I haven't seen this show up yet.)
>
>The last time this came up, I posted somebody's suggestion for a superspeed
>power. Basically, for every 10 points in 'Superspeed' it let you accomplish
>something out of combat at the next quicker interval on the time chart.
>I really liked the idea, unfortunately, I don't remember the author.
Literally seconds before I saw this post, this very thing occurred to
me. I was going to suggest 5 points per level, but 10 seems arguably more
reasonable.
Basically, though, I think we're going to wait until The Ultimate
Speedster and/or Fifth Edition Hero System come out to really have this
matter settled.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:05:56 -0500
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: A little one in need.....please help
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 08:15 PM 1/15/98 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>>>mail. PLEASE pass this mail on to everybody you know.
>>>>It is the request of a little girl who will soon leave
>>>>this world as she has been a victim of the terrible
>>>>disease called CANCER.
>
>This is an old, old HOAX that people keep perpetuating for some sick reason.
>There is no sick little girl who wants to start a chain letter. The American
>Cancer Society is not giving money away on a per letter basis - if they were
>smart people would be buying spam lists and making large sums of money.
>
Yeah, but ya know ... I just never get tired of hearing this one!
Hey, do you suppose next they could tell us the one about Internet
per-minute charges? I love that one!
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:15:54 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Hurting yourself
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>It all depends on the 'feel' you want.
>In the real world, people hurt themselves all the time...although trained
>martial artists much less so. In the comic books, the only characters
>who manage to do so are the ones with the large 'Kick Me' signs on thier
>backs--the ones put there for comic relief.
Not true. While a single example does not prove the rule, I can distintly
remember a case of Sabretooth punching Wolvie in the jaw and breaking his
own hand. The point is that in the comic books people usually are smart
about the things they punch - i.e. Daredevil doesn't try to deck Colossus.
Player characters won't necessarily be that smart - though it'll only take a
few broken knuckles to teach them better :-). In general, this rule will
only truly affect martial artists attacking high DEF structures/people -
every other character concept will generally have enough personal DEF to
avoid damage, or doesn't use hand to hand combat.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:15:59 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Fw: A little one in need.....please help
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
>>> >>> >Dear All,
>>>> >>> >I just received this mail from a friend of mine
>>>in my College. Please respond to it. It will just mean
>>>employing a little bit of time and won't cost you a
>>>penny. All it needs is the heart for you to send this
>>>mail. PLEASE pass this mail on to everybody you know.
>>>It is the request of a little girl who will soon leave
>>>this world as she has been a victim of the terrible
>>>disease called CANCER.
This is an old, old HOAX that people keep perpetuating for some sick reason.
There is no sick little girl who wants to start a chain letter. The American
Cancer Society is not giving money away on a per letter basis - if they were
smart people would be buying spam lists and making large sums of money.
Congradulations, you have been conned. Please inform all the people you just
inadvertantly lied to that this is indeed a hoax.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org>
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG>
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 02:10:04 +0000
Subject: Cost of Ego SPD?
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 8
I recently built a mentalist (something that I seldom do) and I ran into a
problem that I had never encountered before. The rules in the BBB say that a
mentalist has an 'Ego Speed' used for calculating when he gets to use EGO
powers. (Many GMs I know ignore this rule). The formula given is that
ESPD = 1 + (EGO/10), but there is no cost given for buying extra ESPD. Is it 1
per 1 as with normal SPD, or is it cheaper (since EGO is cheaper than DEX)?
--
Stirling Westrup | Use of the Internet by this poster
sti@cam.org | is not to be construed as a tacit
| endorsement of Western Technological
| Civilization or its appurtenances.
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org>
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG>
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 02:29:23 +0000
Subject: Re: Magic Shapeshifting Potions
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 9
So Sayeth Joe Claffey Jr. <jrc@mail1.nai.net&>
> "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> asks,
> >
> >So how do you model the classical fantasy 'magic potion', such that a player
> >character can find one in a chest and be able to use it. Drinking it lets the
> >hero turn into any animal he wants, for up to 1 hour.
>
> Usually a VPP: Animal Powers, used with a Universal Expendable Focus.
This is very expensive, since the VPP pool doesn't get the point break for
being a focus. Thus an independant 30pt VPP will cost the poor alchemist 30
EXPERIENCE POINTS to make the potion. No one would ever be willing.
> >And after you've modeled the potion, how do you model the alchemist who
> >makes a living creating and selling such potions?
> >
> >This problem seems to be a perennial one in Fantasy Hero games.
>
> The system that I'm working on treats the potions as Universal Expendable
> Foci. They take a lot of Extra Time to create (typically a week). Many
> require ingredients that are difficult to find.
I've considered this, but it has a side effect that if I have N charges, and I
sell 1/2 of my potions to a very cautious person who saves them 'just in case',
then I may be stuck unable to recover 1/2 my charges for the next 30 years
because they are lingering on someone's shelf. One could buy charges that
automatically decay over time. (Potion: Water Breathing, Best Before: June 8),
but then you would never find unspoiled potions in dusty old treasure-chests
guarded by dragons.
Anyway, I've been talking to a couple of the list members in private about this
problem, and I've come up with a fairly ricketty set of alchemist/builder rules
for building independant object that don't suffer these limitations. Once I get
them into a more stable and comprehensible shape, I'll publish them to this
list.
--
Stirling Westrup | Use of the Internet by this poster
sti@cam.org | is not to be construed as a tacit
| endorsement of Western Technological
| Civilization or its appurtenances.
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:48:06 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: TUSV:Radically changing vehicle costs...
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 09:32 AM 1/13/98 -0800, Lizard wrote:
>When I was using Champions for a space opera game, one thing I noticed was
>that humongous battlewagons were far too cheap relative to grav cars, tramp
>freighters, and jet belts. Then I found a very reasonable way to balance
>this, at the cost (as it were) of making large vehicles very expensive:
>
Well, done out in my own format humongous battlewagons were expensive
and TOUGH, and the more expensive a power the easier it was to hit.
>Buy all powers (armor, running, flight, life support) with enough area
>effect to cover the vehicle. (Or not...buy life support only for the crew
>quarters, for example.)
>
>This makes buying a Star Destroyer a LOT more costly, points-wise, than
>buying an X-Wing.
>
When designing my 3d combat system i required that all life support be
bought like this: AE for all aplicable hexes, same for force fields, ect.
>Also for TUSV:Crew requirements, with the 'Large Crew' limitation and
>'Small Crew' advantage. Possibly even base crew requirements off the active
>cost for powers (say, 1 person/20 active points, with adjustments for tech
>level, etc?) So that your super-mega-death-cannon, 10d6 KA, needs a crew of
>seven to man it? (That's a bit high, actually, so my numbers might be
>off...maybe 1 person/40 active points? I dunno. That's why YOU'RE the writer!)
>
If your interested in alternative combet rules, think around the idea of
each crewmember contributing their spd to the ship, and having to be qualified
in the area they 'staff'. . . yeah i know this makes them tougher again,
but we're talking about kilometer-long kablammo-class borg busters here, and
it will increase overall cost. .
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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:54:26 +1000
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Subject: Re: TUSV:Radically changing
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At 09:26 PM 1/13/98 -0800, Opal wrote:
>To: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
> l >
> l > When I was using Champions for a space opera game, one thing I noticed
> l > that humongous battlewagons were far too cheap relative to grav cars,
> l > freighters, and jet belts. Then I found a very reasonable way to
> l > this, at the cost (as it were) of making large vehicles very
> l > expensive:
> l >
>
>Actually, no, I haven't noticed this. What I have noticed is that
>large vehicles are pop targets - you can't much more than punch
>through a bulkhead without destroying the vehicle, and that a tiny
>vehicle has a great advantage in combat, unless you tie Apts to
>mass somehow.
>
wellllll, in my 3da system *each* hex has the base body of the ship, based on size.
hull and superstructure units have full body (base plus bonuses), but the ship
starts to 'shake apart' if too many hexes are destroyed. As for size, I set up powers
based on size, so that the more space it took up, the more of a limitation the power
got- 25% more hexes for a -1/4 for instance.
> l > Buy all powers (armor, running, flight, life support) with enough area
> l > effect to cover the vehicle. (Or not...buy life support only for the
> l > quarters, for example.)
> l >
>
>In some instances, this can make sense. I'd like to see the vehicle's
>BOD count for each hex or something like that, too. That would help
>justify the huge cost.
>
you see? you see??!! i'm not mad! (*l*)
>
>___
> * OFFLINE 1.58
>
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:13:00 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
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> TRG> However, any skill comes with a set amount of time to do it in.
>
> Yes; this is the minimum ammount of time required to accomplish the task.
> This is normally a significant chunk of one's action phase (check the BBB
> for the exact timing).
Yes, yes. You're on the right track.
> TRG> It is permissable to take less time with skill penalties or more time
> TRG> with skill bonuses. There exists the mechanic for doing any type of
> TRG> normal skill more quickly than normal.
>
> No, there exists a mechanic for doing any type of normal skill more
> *slowly* than normal, but there is not one for performing it more quickly
> outside of the GM's discretion.
Hmmm. Maybe just a logical conclusion I've been using. In any
case, the situation must exist where a character can perform a skill
quicker. It's in the literature: Character N needs to diffuse very
complex bomb; this would normally take 1 minute, the GM rules; however,
the timer is down to 3, meaning only 1 phase for Character N to act; the
GM says, "go for it" and assigns a penalty.
Now, the key here is deciding on a fair penalty structure. I
agree it should be pretty expensive for each step down the time chart. 2
pts per is OK, 3 sounds real good, 5 seems too expensive. I.E, a -2, -3,
or -5. Or possibly something like -2 for first step down, -4 for second,
-8 for third, etc.
Anyway, the need is there for an ordered mechanic to do this. As
a speedster can move faster than a normal, he/she should be better at
doing this, taking levels to counteract the penalties. Note that this
means some other people can do things quicker. Note, though, that this
penalty means things aren't achieved by as high a roll. I.E, the heart
surgeon moves things down a step and has to make a roll at 11- rather than
13-. He rolls the 11-. He does it, but it isn't the best job ever
leading to possible post-op complications. If he takes his time, the
cusion means things are fine.
> TRG> Skill levels can be used to add generally to the roll of a skill, or
> TRG> to add points to counteract negative bonuses: Things like, "only to
> TRG> offset darkness penalties", or "only to offset lack of equipment
> TRG> penalties". Therefore, there should be no problem in a Speedster
> TRG> buying skill levels, "only to offset penalties for time taken".
>
> Because neither you nor I can assemble a car engine, an 8-hour job, in 8
> seconds, regardless of how many skill levels with Mechanics we buy, the
> same skill levels that a speedster will buy. Why should the speedster, for
> a *LIMITATION*, get more out of his skill levels than you or I, who paid
> more for them?
But he has *less* ability with these skill levels. He can't use
them just as general plusses to his roll, etc. He won't be able to make
his roll by as much (achieving more), etc.
> That is blatantly *UN*fair, regardless of the mechanical legality.
I can see your point. It doesn't make sense to allow a normal to
do the same things with his/her skill levels. There is, however, a way to
justify the fact that the speedster has this ability: He has paid points
for powers and characteristics that represent a super speed character. As
he has done this, it is within concept and SFX to do the skill at this
speed, albeit with penalties. Its not that he's getting more for less, he
has paid quite a bit for his package.
I could see allowing the specialized skill levels at no
disadvantage level, that would seem to work. How's that sound?
-Tim Gilberg
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:17:26 -0600
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From: WILLIAM A PETERSON <willypete1@juno.com>
> I've spent much time and effort trying to deal with the various
>'point crocks' inherent to Champions, and all I can really say is that it
>is a thankless task. No matter how you tweak it, you still can't please
>everyone any of the time, and only rarely can you please even yourself
>more than some of the time.
I don't play or run Champions for thanks or even gratitude, since it is a
game I play it for fun/entertainment. Just like arguing on this list. :)
Thank you for putting "point crocks" in quotes. I always do because to me
it is a misnomer for: Useful Point Saving Feature.
> My current theory (as yet unproven), is that the best idea is to
>limit character's Active point totals (after advantages, but before
>limitations), and not place any limit(other than being able to pay for it
>all) on 'Real' points. This still doesn't help things like hand-to-hand
>attack or aid (where the wrong cost was assigned in the first place), and
>I still am unsure as to what the 'Active' cost of a Framework should be,
>but I think it is a good start.
Great idea, an improvement is to limit powers to Damage Classes, as well.
Please note: that I base Damage Classes on the damaging ability of the
power instead of the less than useful Active Points / 5 that is given as one
example in the book. That would fix your problem with HA attacks. If you
are dead certain that AID is too cheap or that it is too unbalancing of a
power to your game either increase the cost, impose manadatory limitations,
or eliminate it completely from your games. Your choice, part of the Beauty
that is, HERO!
> The simple truth is that some game systems are much better at
>modelling some things than others. The whole 'Speedster Tricks'
>discussion would never have come up on the DC Heroes mailing list--just
>give the character Superspeed, and you're all set. You don't have to
>worry about using Transformation attacks, Skill Levels, or Change
>Environment (of course, that's true of Champions, too--if you can afford
>a Speed of 144!). Does this mean that DC Heroes is perfectly balanced?
>Hah! Each game has it's own strong points, and I have yet to see one
>game combine the strong points of both, without getting hopelessly
>muddled.
Yes, you do see, you are possibly one of the chosen. (twinkling sound
effects or raspy voice.) :) Those lesser systems that build very useful
constructs like super-speed, do so by cutting down on the flexibility of the
system and limit the creativeness of the players and GMs.
> Yes, Champions is hopelessly broken, in that it does not (and
>never will) have a character generation system that satisfies everybody.
Understanding is a three-edged sword and you have just cut me or yourself
"hopelessly broken" and "doesn't satisfy everybody" do not go together in
the same sentence. I like chocolate, you like something else, Chocolate not
broken, Chocolate GOOD. Mongo like Chocolate. There are millions of people
in just this country, billions on this planet alone, who think that all
RPGs are either all-crock or Rocket Propelled Grenades. These people don't
like the "Chocolate" that is Hero. They may like the pistachio walnut cream
that is Golfing. More power to them, whatever floats their boat, tilts
their kilt, puts starch in their shorts or gives them the reason/excuse to
socialize and have a good time.
>Once you get past character generation, though (and I know just how hard
>that is), Champions is still one of the best games to play on this planet
>or any other (and no, I don't include Fuzion in that comment).
>Thank you,
No, William, Thank You. Although you have committed a near-sacrilege in
front of the gods of Hero, (by stating one of the best instead of The BEST)
, you have indeed shown that you possess the keys to enlightenment. Please
use them wisely and don't lock them in accidentally. (Notice that best and
beast are only one letter apart.)
I'm a Hero, you're a Hero, wouldn't you like to be a Hero too.
Alan
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From: "\"Jim Dickinson\" <champion@cyberhighway.net>&q>
<champion@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Re: A little one in need.....please help
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:18:13 -0800
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----------
> From: Colleen Greenwadeby way of Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
<colleen.greenwade@klock.com>
> To: champ-l@omg.org
> Cc: brucehh@aol.com; mlnunn@aol.com
> Subject: Fw: A little one in need.....please help
> Date: Thursday, January 15, 1998 9:01 PM
>
Just in case there is anyone else out there who doesn't know, the CIAC has
identified this and other chain letters and hoaxes for your information:
http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACChainLetters.html
http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html
This is the kind of email that should be forwarded to everyone you
know...so that everyone can become a little more well informed regarding
these Internet phenomena.
Have a better day!
Jim
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:39:18 -0600
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-----Original Message-----
From: Opal <Opal@october.com>
>To expand upon this slightly, the point savings you experience in
>Hero can also be a result of the system recognizing that several
>simillar abilities are not each as useful when taken together
>as any one of them is alone... That may be hard to follow but
>it's a simple principle of 'diminishing returns'
I follow your point, one wife good, two wives, better, but difference
between no wife and one wife bigger difference than difference between one
wife and two wife.
>For instance, in hero, having a 2d RKA is 30 pts better than not
>having one. So is a 6d EB (stun). Having both of them at once
>can also be pretty useful - you have the option of injuring or
>stunning your opponent. Still there will be times when you just
>want to *stop* the person you're blasting and are indiferent to
>how you do so. At times when either attack is equally useful,
>you're really on getting 30 pts worth of utility out of your 60pts
>in attacks. (this assumes that you come down on the side of the
>GLD that says you can't fire two unlinked attacks simultaneously -
>but, even if you do a 2d KA + 6d EB is decidedly inferior to a
>4d KA or 12d EB).
You said linked. You must be punished. :)
>But, it's contingent on knowing the system - if Ice Knight's
>player had no idea that he could buy an EC, he'd lose points
>compared to Equinox *and* run into the same problem with the
>Defroster.... Hero is a complicated game, and it works better
>if you know it really well - but I think the people who like
>Hero like it that way. For everyone else, there's Fuzion...
yyyyyyyyyeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaahhhhh. He's a believer, praise the power
points, I am so happy. Note: I am not being facetious or sarcastic.
An earlier reply in favor of believing that Hero is "hopelessly broke" used
an example that these imagined "point crocks" stopped characters from being
compared based on point value alone. He was of course correct. However, as
long as we allow flexibility, we are faced with different people building
their characters differently and for the same number of points being more or
less powerful. Points spent like money spent can only be a guesstimate of
actual value, it can never be an end-all, be-all power indicator. A student
of mine is buying a house that has 400 sq ft more than mine but costs almost
exactly what mine appraises for, in similar neighborhoods. He is getting a
deal, in other words. A Hero example would be One-Hit Boy. EB so strong
that it uses his entire END, lots of levels to OCV and a 12 SPD. But that
is okay, because he will almost always get hit and die if the villains hit
him first because of a low DCV and no defenses. One on one he will win
almost every time. Let him miss once or get taken by surprise, or try to
fight more than one villain, and he is toast. Is he more powerful, well
most of the time yes. He does win "fair" one-on-one combat nearly without
fail. But does he use more points than someone who spends their points more
wisely no. Same points, more power. The only way to stop it is to limit
flexibility. There are plenty of other games that limit flexibility. Hero
isn't it. If you want less flexibility, play Hero. Afterall, Hero is so
flexible that it allows you to make it less flexible. Truly the supreme
mother of all flexibility.
Hero is GRRRRREAT. (Yelled by large orange tiger.)
Alan
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: Point Crocks??????
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:45:32 -0600
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-----Original Message-----
From: Opal <Opal@october.com>
>I'm not, and I was. I was going to say so to, but I couldn't remember
>how to spell facetious. :)
I am glad, I couldn't help but think less of your reasoning abilities after
your initial post that got me started on my tirade. My chain has been
electronically yanked. But I'm getting better.
Thanks, Alan.
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 00:26:47 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
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> > I could see allowing the specialized skill levels at no
> > disadvantage level, that would seem to work. How's that sound?
> >
>
> Why should somebody take a penality to his effectiveness
> and not get any points back for it. Certainly if it is not a
> limitation, then sure. But if it limits his choices as to how the
> skill levels can be applied, he is entitled to a refund. How big?
Big enough to offset the advantage gained by being able to use
them in ways others cannot. You just wouldn't allow a normal to put
together an engine in 1 phase, skill levels or not. It is because of
their SFX that they are *allowed* to attempt to do these things. The
skill levels have this ability for everyone, only the speedsters can
utilize it. (That's not exactly true, I can think of a few other SFX that
can do the same sorts of things.)
I think that's enough to call the modifier a +-0 one.
-Tim Gilberg
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 01:38:22 -0600 (CST)
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From: Michael Nunn <mlnunnn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Shadis Article
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In the latest Shadis magazine they have a very cool article set up like a
catalogue full of anti-vampire weapons. They presented write-up's of these
for Vampire, Gurps, and Hunter's Inc. Since I am running a vampire slayer
game I converted these over to Hero. ***Note these are for the level of my
game not true conversions.***
Cost
24 9D6 Energy Blast,"Tunnel Rhino",vs physical defense, OAF(-1 1/2),
bulky,Extra Time(-1/4),only to start power, 6 Charges(-3/4),x1 Armor
Piercing(+1/2), Explosion (+1/2)
14 2 1/2D6 Killing Attack - Ranged,"Kaleshnikov IR Laser",OAF(-1 3/4),
bulky, fragile, 14- Activation(1/2),Affects Desolidified (+1/2),5-6
Charges(-3/4)
10 16" Change Environment,"SS-9000 Water Gun",Holy Water,OAF(-1),8
Charges(-1/2), continuing
16 2D6+1 Killing Attack - Ranged,"Splat-O Stake Injector",vs physical
defense,OAF(-1),1 Charges(-2), Reduced by Range (-1/4), Invisible Power
Effects(+1/2),Hearing Group, Penetrating (+1/2)
31 2D6+1 Killing Attack - Ranged,"Stake Night Machine Gun",vs physical
defense,OAF(-1),9-12 Charges (-1/4), x5 Autofire (+1/2),Penetrating(+1/2)
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 03:01:25 -0500 (EST)
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
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I can think of only one example of a human with skill levels vs.
time penalties...
Scotty from Star Trek. The ever popular 'That will take eight hours,
sir' "Do it in one" scenario comes to mind.
...actually, Kit Bashing, as it's called in Marvel, is commonly used by
Mr. Fantastic, the Leader, and a slew of other heroes/villians who don't
even have super speed.
...and skill in 'Jury Rigging' exist in Mekton and Cyberpunk for
Techies... who also don't have super speed.
Of course, such specialized skill levels in excess could prove to get
ridiculous. 'That will take five hours to do, sir' "Can you work any faster?"
'I could possibly have it done in twelve, sir.' "Minutes?" 'No, sir.
Twelve seconds.'
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 07:52:06 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
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On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Remnant wrote:
> You said linked. You must be punished. :)
Whoops! You said linked too, and now *you* must be... D'ohh!!!
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:43:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Hurting yourself
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> Subject: Re: Hurting yourself
> It all depends on the 'feel' you want.
> In the real world, people hurt themselves all the time...although trained
> martial artists much less so. In the comic books, the only characters
> who manage to do so are the ones with the large 'Kick Me' signs on thier
> backs--the ones put there for comic relief.
> Thank you,
> William Anders Peterson
> WillyPete1@juno.com
>
I don't agree that it's just comic relief. What about normals punching
Superman for instance ? I remember one Superman where Clark Kent was forced
into a boxing ring. In order to preserve his secret identity, he had to
dodge and run around the ring so the other guy never landed a blow on him.
Of course this reinforced his cowardly image.
Curt
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 15:10:27
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
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On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:39:18 -0600, Remnant wrote:
>I follow your point, one wife good, two wives, better, but difference
>between no wife and one wife bigger difference than difference between one
>wife and two wife.
Off-topic, but isn't the Japanese or Chines pictogram for discord 'two
women in the same house'?
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
TRG> However, I have a real problem with CE affecting "objects". IE, I
TRG> can see it being used to straighten up a room or switching around a few
TRG> cards, but using it to chop down a tree
If you stopped to think about this for a minute, you would realize that
chopping down a tree is a killing attack.
TRG> or take apart an engine is too powerful.
If not CE then a minor Transformation Attack.
TRG> This power is designed to affect the "environment". The problem
TRG> is defining the environment. Could I, for example, write out a
TRG> computer program at incredible speed with this?
Maybe... as things currently stand, there are no mechanics for writing
code: the Programming skill is more of a general operations skill than
coding. So the answer here is up to the individual GM. Still, since a
normal person cannot write huge ammounts of working code in seconds, a
speedster cannot unless he buys something extra that allows him to do so.
TRG> Is the computer part of the environment? How about picking the
TRG> pockets of some nearby bystanders?
TK, clear and simple.
TRG> They're not part of the action, so there's no combat effect. Is this
TRG> permissible?
No, because in most of your examples the effect can be achieved with
another power. If you had stopped to think about it for a minute I think
you would have realised this. This is basic Champions philosphy: do not
crock a power to do something that can be accomplished with another.
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 15:20:36
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
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On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:13:00 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> TRG> However, any skill comes with a set amount of time to do it in.
>>
>> Yes; this is the minimum ammount of time required to accomplish the task.
>> This is normally a significant chunk of one's action phase (check the BBB
>> for the exact timing).
>
> Yes, yes. You're on the right track.
>
>> TRG> It is permissable to take less time with skill penalties or more time
>> TRG> with skill bonuses. There exists the mechanic for doing any type of
>> TRG> normal skill more quickly than normal.
>>
>> No, there exists a mechanic for doing any type of normal skill more
>> *slowly* than normal, but there is not one for performing it more quickly
>> outside of the GM's discretion.
>
> Hmmm. Maybe just a logical conclusion I've been using. In any
>case, the situation must exist where a character can perform a skill
>quicker. It's in the literature: Character N needs to diffuse very
>complex bomb; this would normally take 1 minute, the GM rules; however,
>the timer is down to 3, meaning only 1 phase for Character N to act; the
>GM says, "go for it" and assigns a penalty.
>
> Now, the key here is deciding on a fair penalty structure. I
>agree it should be pretty expensive for each step down the time chart. 2
>pts per is OK, 3 sounds real good, 5 seems too expensive. I.E, a -2, -3,
>or -5. Or possibly something like -2 for first step down, -4 for second,
>-8 for third, etc.
ISTR that this is actually detailed in one of the ACs on Magic Item
creation, I think. The article talks about a mage needing to finish
enchanting a ring in a hurry because there's a demon ramaging through
the city.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 16 Jan 1998 10:21:00 -0500
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
TRG> I can see your point. It doesn't make sense to allow a normal to
TRG> do the same things with his/her skill levels. There is, however, a
TRG> way to justify the fact that the speedster has this ability: He has
TRG> paid points for powers and characteristics that represent a super
TRG> speed character.
No, he has taken a limitation on his skill levels. a limitation that gives
him the ability to do something that a normal person, without said
limitation, cannot. That is what I am saying is unfair, and there is no
way to rationalize around that.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 16 Jan 1998 10:25:42 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "AAM" == ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> writes:
AAM> ...actually, Kit Bashing, as it's called in Marvel, is commonly
AAM> used by Mr. Fantastic, the Leader, and a slew of other heroes/villians
AAM> who don't even have super speed.
Or "Jury Rig", or perhaps "hack" (read alt.hackers sometime).
The critical point here is that a jury-rigged "fix" is *NOT* doing it
right. Sure, it might work, and you might be able to get it working faster
that way, but the fix is not going to last, and it might cause all kinds of
other problems as the hack overstresses the rest of the system.
But even with such a skill, you are not going to see quite the degree of
time compression associated with speedsters. That rationally should be a
power, or better yet, a Multipower or VPP for "stupid speedster tricks".
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Cost of Ego SPD?
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>>>>> "SW" == Stirling Westrup <sti@CAM.ORG> writes:
SW> I recently built a mentalist (something that I seldom do) and I ran
SW> into a problem that I had never encountered before. The rules in the
SW> BBB say that a mentalist has an 'Ego Speed' used for calculating when
SW> he gets to use EGO powers.
There is no such animal in the fourth edition. Mentalists still act based
on their regular, DEX-based Speed. At the GM's discretion, the timing of
the use of mental powers within a segment of may be based on Ego rather
than Dexterity. To wit, use Ego instead of DEX when counting down the DEX
chart.
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:36:09 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
> Of course, such specialized skill levels in excess could prove to get
> ridiculous. 'That will take five hours to do, sir' "Can you work any faster?"
> 'I could possibly have it done in twelve, sir.' "Minutes?" 'No, sir.
> Twelve seconds.'
Right. That's why I wouldn't allow use of these levels to an
extreme degree without some sort of valid SFX to back them up; with points
spent on powers to suggest the ability.
-Tim Gilberg
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:36:56 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 07:52 AM 1/16/98 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Remnant wrote:
>
>> You said linked. You must be punished. :)
>
>Whoops! You said linked too, and now *you* must be... D'ohh!!!
This is starting to sound like the stoning scene from "The Life of
Brian."
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:38:26 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 10:18 AM 1/16/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Maybe... as things currently stand, there are no mechanics for writing
>code: the Programming skill is more of a general operations skill than
>coding. So the answer here is up to the individual GM. Still, since a
>normal person cannot write huge ammounts of working code in seconds, a
>speedster cannot unless he buys something extra that allows him to do so.
Any suggestions for what that "something extra" should be?
---
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:39:36 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 10:06 PM 1/15/98, qts wrote:
>> So would a lightning-fast Lockpicking ability be Transform (locked lock
>>to unlocked lock)? If so, why would it be more difficult to pick a lock
>>with high BODY than one with low BODY?
>
>How about using something along the lines of Extra-dimensional
>Movement, Continuous
I don't follow your line of thought here at all.
---
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:42:55 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 10:20 PM 1/15/98, qts wrote:
>Instead of having Everyvehicle equipment, why not do what another
>poster does with his PCs, and allow them anything that the *vehicle's*
>point level of wealth would allow? This neatly sidesteps the need for
>the GM to define everything.
Actually, defining every little sensor is mainly for those GMs who
*don't* want to allow Everyvehicle Equipment, or who want an "optional
extra" for a vehicle of a different type. (Do aircraft have ground
speedometers? Or how about a stunt car with an altimeter?)
---
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
Mail-Copies-To: never
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
BG> Any suggestions for what that "something extra" should be?
That is a very tough call, especially because I know "too much" about the
subject -- for instance, you are going to hit a brick wall, as a modern
keyboard cannot keep up with a typist going at more than 150wpm.
But this is four-color supers, and writing code quickly is generally not
something of great import in the genre, so keyboards can keep up no matter
how fast the typist. A power dedicated to just this task would cost much
more than its utility within the game. As such, like a weapon that a
character picks up off the battlefield, if you do it once you can get it
for free.
That said, I would still suggest using Change Environment with variable SFX
as the blanket "stupid speedster tricks" power. If CE can be used to write
a novel in minutes, it can be used to write several hundred thousand lines
of code in the same time. The only difference is the medium.
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 18:37:11
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:39:36 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 10:06 PM 1/15/98, qts wrote:
>>> So would a lightning-fast Lockpicking ability be Transform (locked lock
>>>to unlocked lock)? If so, why would it be more difficult to pick a lock
>>>with high BODY than one with low BODY?
>>
>>How about using something along the lines of Extra-dimensional
>>Movement, Continuous
>
> I don't follow your line of thought here at all.
Because you're continually moving through time at a different rate.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 18:38:31
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:42:55 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 10:20 PM 1/15/98, qts wrote:
>>Instead of having Everyvehicle equipment, why not do what another
>>poster does with his PCs, and allow them anything that the *vehicle's*
>>point level of wealth would allow? This neatly sidesteps the need for
>>the GM to define everything.
>
> Actually, defining every little sensor is mainly for those GMs who
>*don't* want to allow Everyvehicle Equipment, or who want an "optional
>extra" for a vehicle of a different type. (Do aircraft have ground
>speedometers? Or how about a stunt car with an altimeter?)
Fair enough. Personally, I'd rather concentrate on the story.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:00:03 -0600
From: Kevin Roberts <kr23st00@apex.net>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Cost of Ego SPD?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
Stirling Westrup wrote:
>
> I recently built a mentalist (something that I seldom do) and I ran into a
> problem that I had never encountered before. The rules in the BBB say that a
> mentalist has an 'Ego Speed' used for calculating when he gets to use EGO
> powers. (Many GMs I know ignore this rule). The formula given is that
> ESPD = 1 + (EGO/10), but there is no cost given for buying extra ESPD. Is it 1
> per 1 as with normal SPD, or is it cheaper (since EGO is cheaper than DEX)?
>
Snip snip..
Ok. I love mentalist type characters. Here is where and how you can
deal with this problem.
There is in "The Ultimate Mentalist" an add on book that deals with
just mental powers. In this book you will find how you can buy and
have an ego speed, and a dex speed. Yes two sets ot speeds for the
same character.
Diffent powers and expansion for mental character.
Yes, you do need to show and get approval by your GM on what you
want to do. But I see no problem in this. Just have fun with
him.
sig..
end of line............
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:15:19 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> That is a very tough call, especially because I know "too much" about the
> subject -- for instance, you are going to hit a brick wall, as a modern
> keyboard cannot keep up with a typist going at more than 150wpm.
>
> But this is four-color supers, and writing code quickly is generally not
> something of great import in the genre, so keyboards can keep up no matter
> how fast the typist.
Right.
> A power dedicated to just this task would cost much
> more than its utility within the game. As such, like a weapon that a
> character picks up off the battlefield, if you do it once you can get it
> for free.
Hmmm. I'd allow that, but the problem is the power for doing
stuff like this regularly.
> That said, I would still suggest using Change Environment with variable SFX
> as the blanket "stupid speedster tricks" power. If CE can be used to write
> a novel in minutes, it can be used to write several hundred thousand lines
> of code in the same time. The only difference is the medium.
Why can CE be used to write a novel? I really can't see allowing
the power to do more that change the _setting_ and _surroundings_. Not
have concrete effects on "things".
-Tim Gilberg
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:16:30 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
> >Whoops! You said linked too, and now *you* must be... D'ohh!!!
>
> This is starting to sound like the stoning scene from "The Life of
> Brian."
"The next person to say Jehova . . ." [loud thud]
-Tim Gilberg
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 14:28:19 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On 1/16/98 8:52 AM Darien Phoenix Lynx (chip@owlnet.rice.edu) Said:
>> You said linked. You must be punished. :)
>
>Whoops! You said linked too, and now *you* must be... D'ohh!!!
>
All *I* said was that pie was good enough for *Jehovah*!
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:36:37 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Cost of Ego SPD?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 01:00 PM 1/16/98 -0600, Kevin Roberts wrote:
>Stirling Westrup wrote:
>>
>> I recently built a mentalist (something that I seldom do) and I ran into a
>> problem that I had never encountered before. The rules in the BBB say
that a
>> mentalist has an 'Ego Speed' used for calculating when he gets to use EGO
>> powers. (Many GMs I know ignore this rule). The formula given is that
>> ESPD = 1 + (EGO/10), but there is no cost given for buying extra ESPD.
Is it 1
>> per 1 as with normal SPD, or is it cheaper (since EGO is cheaper than DEX)?
>>
>Snip snip..
>
>Ok. I love mentalist type characters. Here is where and how you can
>deal with this problem.
>
>There is in "The Ultimate Mentalist" an add on book that deals with
>just mental powers. In this book you will find how you can buy and
>have an ego speed, and a dex speed. Yes two sets ot speeds for the
>same character.
To repeat a question I posted earlier: where is this?
---
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:40:32 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
At 12:46 PM 1/16/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>
>BG> Any suggestions for what that "something extra" should be?
>
>That is a very tough call, especially because I know "too much" about the
>subject -- for instance, you are going to hit a brick wall, as a modern
>keyboard cannot keep up with a typist going at more than 150wpm.
>
>But this is four-color supers, and writing code quickly is generally not
>something of great import in the genre, so keyboards can keep up no matter
>how fast the typist. A power dedicated to just this task would cost much
>more than its utility within the game. As such, like a weapon that a
>character picks up off the battlefield, if you do it once you can get it
>for free.
>
>That said, I would still suggest using Change Environment with variable SFX
>as the blanket "stupid speedster tricks" power. If CE can be used to write
>a novel in minutes, it can be used to write several hundred thousand lines
>of code in the same time. The only difference is the medium.
And, of course, that's a big *if.* I don't think it's been established
yet that CE *can* be used to write a novel in minutes.
Me, I like the idea of having an all-new Power, Super-Speed, to knock
these tasks up one step on the Time Chart for every 10 points spent on the
Power. It honestly does make a lot more sense than my earlier proposal
based on Skill Levels.
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:45:13 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
At 10:36 AM 1/16/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> Of course, such specialized skill levels in excess could prove to get
>> ridiculous. 'That will take five hours to do, sir' "Can you work any
faster?"
>> 'I could possibly have it done in twelve, sir.' "Minutes?" 'No, sir.
>> Twelve seconds.'
>
> Right. That's why I wouldn't allow use of these levels to an
>extreme degree without some sort of valid SFX to back them up; with points
>spent on powers to suggest the ability.
Actually, I don't think any of us here would or should allow the use of
any Characteristic, Skill, Perk, Talent, Power, Advantage, Limitation,
Framework, or Disadvantage that didn't have a valid SFX.
Of course, this can be very easy to come up with in some cases ("Why
does Bodacious Dude have a COM 24, Biff?" "Uh, luck and really good
genes?" "OK, good enough...."), and more of a challenge in others ("How
does Bodacious Dude's surfboard turn him and itself Desolid?" "Uh, I'm not
sure, it just looked cool on the character sheet." "Spend the points
elsewhere.")
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:49:04 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
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At 06:37 PM 1/16/98, qts wrote:
>On Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:39:36 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>>At 10:06 PM 1/15/98, qts wrote:
>>>> So would a lightning-fast Lockpicking ability be Transform (locked lock
>>>>to unlocked lock)? If so, why would it be more difficult to pick a lock
>>>>with high BODY than one with low BODY?
>>>
>>>How about using something along the lines of Extra-dimensional
>>>Movement, Continuous
>>
>> I don't follow your line of thought here at all.
>
>Because you're continually moving through time at a different rate.
Oh, now I understand. I was relating your suggestion specifically to
Lockpicking and the BODY of a lock, but you were talking generally.
Yeah, this kind of thing could work; in fact, I've done something
similar in one of my past campaigns, and successfully. The big problem
with it is that, in order to interact with the real world while in another
dimension (even if it's a matching dimension that differs only in the
passage of time), the character still must buy Indirect and
Transdimensional (+3/4 total Advantage) on his STR, and any other Powers
that he wants to use on others.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:55:01 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
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> >
> >Whoops! You said linked too, and now *you* must be... D'ohh!!!
> >
> All *I* said was that pie was good enough for *Jehovah*!
As a large number of rocks convene on the speaker.
-Tim Gilberg
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:01:08 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
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> TRG> However, I have a real problem with CE affecting "objects". IE, I
> TRG> can see it being used to straighten up a room or switching around a few
> TRG> cards, but using it to chop down a tree
>
> If you stopped to think about this for a minute, you would realize that
> chopping down a tree is a killing attack.
If in combat. However, chopping down a large number of small
trees from the nearby forest and building a quick shelter to protect from
the cold is better simulated by some sort of building skill. It's just
that the speedster can do it in, oh, 4 or 5 seconds. Using KAs just
wouldn't fit the effect.
> TRG> or take apart an engine is too powerful.
>
> If not CE then a minor Transformation Attack.
Possible, but it's still doing the work of what a skill already
allows. You just have to use the skill at a quicker rate with appropriate
penalties.
> Maybe... as things currently stand, there are no mechanics for writing
> code: the Programming skill is more of a general operations skill than
> coding. So the answer here is up to the individual GM. Still, since a
Well, Programming is actually used for writing code and operating
computers. It does need to be split into two seperate skills, IMO.
> normal person cannot write huge ammounts of working code in seconds, a
> speedster cannot unless he buys something extra that allows him to do so.
He has. He's spent lots of points on powers that make up the SFX
of superspeed. Therefore, he can *attempt* to do a skill in less time
than a normal possible could. He still, however, has to deal with
considerable skill penalties.
> TRG> Is the computer part of the environment? How about picking the
> TRG> pockets of some nearby bystanders?
>
> TK, clear and simple.
Huh? How about the speedster trick of picking all the pockets in
the room in the blink of an eye, without being detected. This is
obviously slight of hand on a very fast scale.
> No, because in most of your examples the effect can be achieved with
> another power. If you had stopped to think about it for a minute I think
> you would have realised this. This is basic Champions philosphy: do not
> crock a power to do something that can be accomplished with another.
I'd turn around and say the same to you. Most of what you propose
needlessly utilizes a power to do what a skill can and should do. Haven't
you jumped on Steve Long for the very same thing?
-Tim Gilberg
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
TRG> Why can CE be used to write a novel? I really can't see allowing
TRG> the power to do more that change the _setting_ and _surroundings_. Not
TRG> have concrete effects on "things".
Then how about making a suggestion that makes sense, that does not crock
game mechanics in favor of certain "classes" of characters, instead of
shooting down everything I try to present? If you have nothing positive to
contribute, don't bother posting.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
>> If you stopped to think about this for a minute, you would realize that
>> chopping down a tree is a killing attack.
TRG> If in combat. However, chopping down a large number of small
TRG> trees from the nearby forest and building a quick shelter to protect
TRG> from the cold is better simulated by some sort of building skill.
This is two different things: 1) chopping down the trees and 2) building
the shelter. The former is a killing attack, regardless of combat time;
the latter is a Survival skill roll.
TRG> It's just that the speedster can do it in, oh, 4 or 5 seconds. Using
TRG> KAs just wouldn't fit the effect.
Oh, boy, then you come up with something rational.
TRG> or take apart an engine is too powerful.
>>
>> If not CE then a minor Transformation Attack.
TRG> Possible, but it's still doing the work of what a skill already
TRG> allows. You just have to use the skill at a quicker rate with
TRG> appropriate penalties.
That is exactly what the Transformation does: it changes the "state" of the
thing at a faster rate than just the use of the skill alone.
[...]
TRG> Huh? How about the speedster trick of picking all the pockets in
TRG> the room in the blink of an eye, without being detected. This is
TRG> obviously slight of hand on a very fast scale.
No, it is "obviously" TK with AoE, fine manipulation, and invisible power
effects.
[...]
TRG> I'd turn around and say the same to you. Most of what you propose
TRG> needlessly utilizes a power to do what a skill can and should do.
No ammount of "Mechanics" skill levels will allow me or you or anyone else
to assemble a car's engine in under 10 seconds. This is completely outside
the realm of skill levels. They do not allow you to perform tasks faster
(though they do reduce the number of times you may need to try), and adding
a limitation will not change that.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
BG> Me, I like the idea of having an all-new Power, Super-Speed, to knock
BG> these tasks up one step on the Time Chart for every 10 points spent on
BG> the Power. It honestly does make a lot more sense than my earlier
BG> proposal based on Skill Levels.
I can live with that. But for the record, I am trying to model "super
speed" with the extant mechanics without crocking them (or at leat not too
badly). With that in mind, you have to ask yourself, "is this task
critical to the plot?" If it is not, then the object of the task qualifies
as a "flat", part of the scenery. As such, Change Environment can affect
it. If it is, then the object qualifies as a "prop". That requires
something a bit more powerful, such as a Transformation Attack.
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:50:16 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Reply-To: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
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On 16 Jan 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
>
> TRG> Why can CE be used to write a novel? I really can't see allowing
> TRG> the power to do more that change the _setting_ and _surroundings_. Not
> TRG> have concrete effects on "things".
>
> Then how about making a suggestion that makes sense, that does not crock
> game mechanics in favor of certain "classes" of characters, instead of
> shooting down everything I try to present? If you have nothing positive to
> contribute, don't bother posting.
etc, etc...
Guys, guys! Stop the madness!
Tim, Rat has a point. Trying to model the potent effect of superspeed
skills as a "real" effect (costing points) rather than a "special" effect
makes sense. Rat is just trying to do it in the most orthodox way
possible. That doesn't mean it's the cleanest way, or the best way for
someone's campaign, but at least it is the most orthodox way. Rat is not
trying to say that the concept is invalid. Rat just wants any solution to
be "by the book," not fudged significantly. Rat believes that altering the
par times for skills is a significant fudge, and he especially doesn't
like not charging for it, or buying it as skill levels, etc.
Rat, Tim has a point. CE is a nebulous power that doesn't make clear what
kinds of "changes" to the environment are allowed. This is why so many of
us want to see a graduated CE like Transform. Tim is pointing out that a
skill still needs to be applied to perform these effects and that a CE or
a Transform shouldn't replace them. Tim also believes more in GM
sensibility than faithful adherance to the rules, and is willing to allow
"unorthodox" structures like skill levels vs. time penalties, or
superspeed as SFX.
Tim attacks Rat on the grounds that Rat's suggestions are just as "screwy"
as his own. Rat counters by saying that he's at least screwy the HERO way.
Muffled voices of passersby consider a new power, "Superspeed."
(sniff) and you're even both ignoring my suggestions.
HERO-VALID- SUGGESTION
O-METER
10 Rat: build separate powers to model each superspeed effect.
8 Darien: Orthodox CE: "Any noncombat actions I could do in
X time." (with the +1 advantage). GM sets X.
7 Tim: Skill levels, only to offset GM-called time penalties.
Needs a time penalty mechanic.
4 Darien: Unorthdox CE: Each +5 moves a step on time chart
rather than doubling area. With +1 advantage, 40 points to
do 1 hour's worth of nonombat work in 1 phase. Range
limited by 1 phase running distance.
2 Others: An all new power, Superspeed. 10 points per.
2 Darien: Any of above, but new skill-timing system. Rolls
determine how long job will take. Players pour in as much
effort as they want, but can stop at any time.
-10 Let's make up and play Fuzion.
Every GM has a rating on the Hero-Valid-o-Meter--the lower the number, the
more fudge they're willing to accept before gouging someone's eyes out.
Usually, with smart GMs who understand the spirit of the rules, the fudged
mechanics are cleaner and provide more satisfying modeled results.
Sometimes it helps to read good ol' BBB 208-209 again. But they're not as
much HERO as they are HouseRules(tm). I'm a big believer in discretionary
mechanics--but big responsibility comes with that great power. For one
thing, you really have to be sure you now the interdependencies and
principles behind the HERO system inside and out. If you don't, you'll be
making discontiguous modifications--and might break more than you fix.
That's why we should appreciate Rat and his tireless effort to model
everything on virgin rules. In my experience modifying the rules is
sometimes the best way to have the most fun. But it must be done
judiciously and in limited ways, with careful thought given to all
alternatives. Rat can think of all the kosher alternatives for you, and
even if they don't satisfy you, they can be a starting point for your
careful tweak.
Now, one last time. If Tim wants to tweak the system, that's okay. Tim is
probably an enlightened guy and will do something that makes good
sense--and the designers wanted it that way. If Rat says that you "can't
do it," he's not ordering you around, he's just pointing out that you're
tweaking the system and begins his crusade to see what the alternatives
are. This is valuable input, take notes. It's a common motif on this list
that someone has a difficult item to model, and gets a slew of responses,
some orthodox, some not-as-orthodox. Then the Holy War between HERO
Purists and HERO Envelope-Pushers begins anew. Why can't you guys just get
along. It's not like anyone said "linked" or anything...
D'ohh!!
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Subject: Re: Hurting yourself
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From: willypete1@juno.com (WILLIAM A PETERSON)
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 17:50:32 EST
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I hereby amend my statement:
People only hurt themselves when they are intended as comic relief, or
when they are trying to punch something that is so tough (like Superman
or Wolverine) that they should know better.
However--
A.) This is something REALLY tough, not just a brick wall, and
B.) The person doing so is NOT a trained martial artist.
Real-life martial artists punch through things like brick walls
all the time--once they've learned how. Untrained martial artists who
try to imitate the trained ones, however, become comic relief.
Thank you,
William Anders Peterson
WillyPete1@juno.com
On Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:43:37 -0600 (CST) Curt Hicks
<exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> writes:
>
>> Subject: Re: Hurting yourself
>
>> It all depends on the 'feel' you want.
>> In the real world, people hurt themselves all the time...although
>trained
>> martial artists much less so. In the comic books, the only
>characters
>> who manage to do so are the ones with the large 'Kick Me' signs on
>thier
>> backs--the ones put there for comic relief.
>> Thank you,
>> William Anders Peterson
>> WillyPete1@juno.com
>>
>
>I don't agree that it's just comic relief. What about normals
>punching
>Superman for instance ? I remember one Superman where Clark Kent was
>forced
>into a boxing ring. In order to preserve his secret identity, he had
>to
>dodge and run around the ring so the other guy never landed a blow on
>him.
>Of course this reinforced his cowardly image.
>
>Curt
>
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:06:52 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment
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-- Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>
> An anchor... on a speedboat?
> Hm. I wonder how an anchor would be written up in Hero terms?
It would probarly be some sort of clinging to the bottom
below the boat. Exceed the amount of clinging and the boat starts to
drift.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:31:01 -0800
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Re[2]: Hurting yourself
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Will Peterson wrote:
<quote>
I hereby amend my statement:
People only hurt themselves when they are intended as comic relief, or when
they are trying to punch something that is so tough (like Superman or
Wolverine) that they should know better.
However--
A.) This is something REALLY tough, not just a brick wall, and B.) The
person doing so is NOT a trained martial artist.
</quote>
Maybe the people who are so tough that it hurts to hit them should buy a
small damage shield? This way, they wouldn't just arbitrarily get a bonus
for SFX.
Richard
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:32:54 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> Because neither you nor I can assemble a car engine, an 8-hour job, in 8
> seconds, regardless of how many skill levels with Mechanics we buy, the
> same skill levels that a speedster will buy. Why should the speedster, for
> a *LIMITATION*, get more out of his skill levels than you or I, who paid
> more for them?
Because you ARE getting more for them. You have +4 skill levels as a
mechanic on your 11- base giving you 15- to repair the batmobile in 8 hours.
This gives you a 95% chance of getting the job done.
Ratchetman, the fastest spanner in the west, also has +4 skill levels as
a mechanic and a base 11- mechanic skill but can only use the skill levels to
decrease the time on the job. He has only a 50% chance of repairing the
batmobile but does it in 30 seconds, success or failure. He still did 8 hours
work, it only took him 30 seconds. This is, I believe, the premise behind many
speedsters, they do things faster than anybody else.
Other examples. Barry Allen, the Flash, in the middle of a
conversation, raced off to somebodies office across state, searched all their
paper files and returned in time to catch the object he tossed in the air.
Again, the Flash. Doing a Rubix Cube in less than a second.
All examples of speedsters doing things quicker than others. This is
their special effect, is it not? Why are you so against it. Are you against
Mentalists reading peoples minds, bricks lifting aircraft carriers?
--
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Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:43:35 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
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Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> I could see allowing the specialized skill levels at no
> disadvantage level, that would seem to work. How's that sound?
>
Why should somebody take a penality to his effectiveness
and not get any points back for it. Certainly if it is not a
limitation, then sure. But if it limits his choices as to how the
skill levels can be applied, he is entitled to a refund. How big?
Beats me.
--
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Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 17:43:49 -0600
From: Kevin Roberts <kr23st00@apex.net>
Subject: Re: Cost of Ego SPD?
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 01:00 PM 1/16/98 -0600, Kevin Roberts wrote:
> >Stirling Westrup wrote:
> >There is in "The Ultimate Mentalist" an add on book that deals with
> >just mental powers. In this book you will find how you can buy and
> >have an ego speed, and a dex speed. Yes two sets ot speeds for the
> >same character.
>
> To repeat a question I posted earlier: where is this?
OK it is in the Source book "The Ultimate Menalist" # 512 for fourth
edition
The explination on this and where it is is in Chaper 1. Page 11. Col 1.
3rd
Paragraph through to Col. 2. to the end of the 2nd Paragraph.
If you want to know more I suggest that you buy the book. It is a good
buy
and does have a lot of good thought out powers.
sig.
end of line........
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:46:12 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Cost of Ego SPD?
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At 05:43 PM 1/16/98 -0600, Kevin Roberts wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>
>> At 01:00 PM 1/16/98 -0600, Kevin Roberts wrote:
>> >Stirling Westrup wrote:
>
>> >There is in "The Ultimate Mentalist" an add on book that deals with
>> >just mental powers. In this book you will find how you can buy and
>> >have an ego speed, and a dex speed. Yes two sets ot speeds for the
>> >same character.
>>
>> To repeat a question I posted earlier: where is this?
>
>
>OK it is in the Source book "The Ultimate Menalist" # 512 for fourth
>edition
>The explination on this and where it is is in Chaper 1. Page 11. Col 1.
>3rd
>Paragraph through to Col. 2. to the end of the 2nd Paragraph.
>
>If you want to know more I suggest that you buy the book. It is a good
>buy
>and does have a lot of good thought out powers.
I've owned the book since shortly after its release, and just read the
passage in question. It makes no mention at all of a SPD Characteristic
based on EGO rather than DEX.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 19:19:50 -0600
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-----Original Message-----
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
>Off-topic, but isn't the Japanese or Chines pictogram for discord 'two
>women in the same house'?
I had heard it was in Chinese. I believe it refers to two women that are
not both your wife. A relative or friend, but not wife. It seems to work
out well for people whose religion or societal beliefs favor it. The above
opinions are mine and mine alone, and is not meant to represent the beliefs
of my wife....Oh, hi honey. What is that in your hand? Dear why do
you need a knife that large? HHHHEEEELLLLPPPPP!
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From: Wgauld <Wgauld@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:26:19 EST
Subject: campaign material
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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Any info on Champion games on or about the city of Boston.
thanks
Willie
Wgauld@aol.com
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 19:59:23 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Reply-To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
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> Actually, I don't think any of us here would or should allow the use of
> any Characteristic, Skill, Perk, Talent, Power, Advantage, Limitation,
> Framework, or Disadvantage that didn't have a valid SFX.
Right. And at the same time certain applications of skill and/or
characteristic I wouldn't allow to be done unless a character has some
power, etc to justify it. That's why SpeedBoy can do skills superfast
(albeit at a penalty) while normals cannot.
> does Bodacious Dude's surfboard turn him and itself Desolid?" "Uh, I'm not
> sure, it just looked cool on the character sheet." "Spend the points
> elsewhere.")
OK, his friend, TechGirl, made a really cool phase modulator for
it.
-Tim Gilberg
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From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG>
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 02:01:35 +0000
Subject: Re: Magic Shapeshifting Potions
Priority: normal
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So Sayeth Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net&>
> << So how do you model the classical fantasy 'magic potion', such that a
> player character can find one in a chest and be able to use it. Drinking
> it lets the hero turn into any animal he wants, for up to 1 hour.
>
> And after you've modeled the potion, how do you model the alchemist
> who makes a living creating and selling such potions?
>
> This problem seems to be a perennial one in Fantasy Hero games.>>
> Most alchemists won't do this, for obvious reasons. For these
> alchemists, try Transfer. The GM declares that various rare objects
> have points in them that an alchemist can use. The alchemist then uses
> Transfer to move the points from the materials to the potion, and then
> the points are spent on the power, with appropriate limitations.
>
> The Transfer may be only workable on "proper" items. Thus, Transfer to
> get points for healing may come from the horn of a unicorn, but not
> from the teeth of a dragon.
>
I like this, in general, but it needs a proper set of rules. For instance, how
do you model a Fletcher? He makes charges for bows. Are they independant? How
about a swordsmith. What's a sword cost in real points? 6 or 8? Why does it
take more/less time to make a 6-point sword than to make a 6-point potion?
Anyway, I think what is needed is a set of rules for determining how a
professional (or crafting) skill roll can be used to rework independant
materials into independant items that are them freely available for use. It
would take into account the different speeds of creation of different crafting
skills, and would set limits on how many points can be put into an object how
fast based on skill levels.
Its tricky though, so I don't expect to be happy with the rules I'm working
on for a while yet. For example, can a swordsmith make a 6d6K sword? Why
not? Would your reason also prevent 50 stonemasons from building a mighty
castle?
--
Stirling Westrup | Use of the Internet by this poster
sti@cam.org | is not to be construed as a tacit
| endorsement of Western Technological
| Civilization or its appurtenances.
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:01:50 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
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> And, of course, that's a big *if.* I don't think it's been established
> yet that CE *can* be used to write a novel in minutes.
My exact problem.
> Me, I like the idea of having an all-new Power, Super-Speed, to knock
> these tasks up one step on the Time Chart for every 10 points spent on the
> Power. It honestly does make a lot more sense than my earlier proposal
> based on Skill Levels.
Hmmmm. Would you allow the purchase of this power in frameworks?
If so, it may be too cheap, if not it's definately too expensive. 5-8 pts
might be OK, but I like a graduated scale better: ie +3 for the first
level, +5 for the second, +10 for the third, +20 for the fourth.
-Tim Gilberg
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:04:48 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> TRG> Why can CE be used to write a novel? I really can't see allowing
> TRG> the power to do more that change the _setting_ and _surroundings_. Not
> TRG> have concrete effects on "things".
>
> Then how about making a suggestion that makes sense, that does not crock
> game mechanics in favor of certain "classes" of characters, instead of
> shooting down everything I try to present? If you have nothing positive to
> contribute, don't bother posting.
Odd words for one who routinely shoots down nice ideas without any
alternative suggestions.
But I'm not just suggesting a power for classes of characters.
I'm suggesting that only characters who have purchased a coherent set of
SFX that would allow for certain tasks to be able to attempt certain
things with their skills -- things like doing something in 1 phase that
would normally take an hour. Note that this wouldn't just be speedsters
-- Time Power characters may be able to do this as well as some other SFX.
Give me time to think of them.
-Tim Gilberg
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From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG>
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 03:37:54 +0000
Subject: Re: Cost of Ego SPD?
Priority: normal
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So Sayeth Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net&>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "SW" == Stirling Westrup <sti@CAM.ORG> writes:
>
> SW> I recently built a mentalist (something that I seldom do) and I ran
> SW> into a problem that I had never encountered before. The rules in the
> SW> BBB say that a mentalist has an 'Ego Speed' used for calculating when
> SW> he gets to use EGO powers.
>
> There is no such animal in the fourth edition. Mentalists still act based
> on their regular, DEX-based Speed. At the GM's discretion, the timing of
> the use of mental powers within a segment of may be based on Ego rather
> than Dexterity. To wit, use Ego instead of DEX when counting down the DEX
> chart.
You're right. I read the phrase "within a phase" as "within a turn" and just
assumed it was the old system. Good. I never did like have two different speed
bases.
--
Stirling Westrup | Use of the Internet by this poster
sti@cam.org | is not to be construed as a tacit
| endorsement of Western Technological
| Civilization or its appurtenances.
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 23:00:58 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Hurting yourself
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> Real-life martial artists punch through things like brick walls
>all the time--once they've learned how. Untrained martial artists who
>try to imitate the trained ones, however, become comic relief.
Bwahahahahaha!!!!!
'Real Life' martial artists do NOT punch through brick walls. They punch
through single or stacked (and most importantly _separated_) bricks. There
is a BIG difference. For example, if I take a brick, lay it on something
that gives me 'space' below a good portion of the brick, and hit it with a
sledgehammer, it'll break. But if I select a brick at random sitting in a
brick wall, all the sledgehammer can do is grind the outer surface to dust
with repeated blows.
Martial artist break stuff is an impressive stunt, sure, but it doesn't take
a degree in physics to realize that wood has grain you can break along, and
that ceramics like brick will shatter before they will bend. You don't see
martial artists breaking steel plates, and with good reason, they'll just
deform slightly and rebound the force back into the hand/foot in question
(broken bones time). Some very dedicated/wierd/stupid martial artists
actually practice punching an iron or steel plate, but they _don't_ try
breaking it. A brick wall is similar. There's no room for the brick to
shatter and absorb the force like in a stack of separated bricks. Any wall a
martial artist _could_ punch through would be pretty damn flimsy (really bad
mortar, no support).
This is not to belittle the abilities of martial artists. I have a great
deal of respect for someone who can summon the willpower and confidence to
actually punch something really hard that _might_ not break. But I am
familiar with the mechanics of solids and the basics of physics - and that
breaking a brick wall with your bare hands and feet would be a bloody
miracle without a weak spot or bad mortar. A properly built brick wall is
TOUGH. It's not steel-reinforced concrete, but it's the next best thing.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power
to back up his sickening platitudes!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:58:17 -0800
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-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Friday, January 16, 1998 2:09 AM
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
>Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>>
>> Because neither you nor I can assemble a car engine, an 8-hour job,
in 8
>> seconds, regardless of how many skill levels with Mechanics we buy,
the
>> same skill levels that a speedster will buy. Why should the
speedster, for
>> a *LIMITATION*, get more out of his skill levels than you or I, who
paid
>> more for them?
>
> Because you ARE getting more for them. You have +4 skill levels as
a
>mechanic on your 11- base giving you 15- to repair the batmobile in 8
hours.
>This gives you a 95% chance of getting the job done.
>
> Ratchetman, the fastest spanner in the west, also has +4 skill
levels as
>a mechanic and a base 11- mechanic skill but can only use the skill
levels to
>decrease the time on the job. He has only a 50% chance of repairing
the
>batmobile but does it in 30 seconds, success or failure. He still
did 8 hours
>work, it only took him 30 seconds. This is, I believe, the premise
behind many
>speedsters, they do things faster than anybody else.
True. But the levels you described above aren't "Limited" at all. They
are intended to be, but you phrased the sentence wrong. You said, "can
only use the skill levels to decrease the time on the job", but you
meant, "only to negate penalties for insufficient time".
This character can take the actual 8 hours to do the job, but get a
bonus equal to taking a season, because he is "decreasing the time on
the job". This allows the character to have the option of taking the
proper amount of time, but getting a +4 bonus, or taking only a minute
with his normal skill roll. Those "limited" levels allow you to do the
job in less time (which other people cannot do), or do the job in the
same time with the same effect as normal levels.
Thus, your levels have an _Advantage_, not a disadvantage.
A normal man, no matter how many skill levels he has, cannot possibly
assemble a car from parts in 12 seconds. A speedster can. Therefore,
those "speedster" skill levels have an Advantage associated with them.
Now, if you declare that those levels also have a Limitation
associated with them, "Only to negate time penalties", then that would
limit these levels, but only after they received an Advantage that is
worth a significant amount, possibly more than the limitation.
I might also point out that the rules have no present "time
penalties". You can get a job done with greater chance of success by
taking extra time, but you cannot get a job done in less time. There
is no official mechanic for that.
However you do this, it would have to be a house rule. There is no
mechanic in the rule for getting a job done in less than the base time
set by the GM, and any "Skill Levels" that did so would have to have a
home-made Advantage to allow it. The penalty for doing it in less time
than normal could would only be able to apply to people who had those
additional skill levels. Everyone else would have to be limited to the
base time. Otherwise, a skilled mechanic could, on a good roll, remove
your car's engine in under a minute.
Filksinger
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 23:33:39 -0600
From: Kevin Roberts <kr23st00@apex.net>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Cost of Ego SPD?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 05:43 PM 1/16/98 -0600, Kevin Roberts wrote:
> >Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >>
> >> At 01:00 PM 1/16/98 -0600, Kevin Roberts wrote:
> >> >Stirling Westrup wrote:
> >
> >> >There is in "The Ultimate Mentalist" an add on book that deals with
> >> >just mental powers. In this book you will find how you can buy and
> >> >have an ego speed, and a dex speed. Yes two sets ot speeds for the
> >> >same character.
> >>
> >> To repeat a question I posted earlier: where is this?
> >
> >
> >OK it is in the Source book "The Ultimate Menalist" # 512 for fourth
> >edition
> >The explination on this and where it is is in Chaper 1. Page 11. Col 1.
> >3rd
> >Paragraph through to Col. 2. to the end of the 2nd Paragraph.
> >
> >If you want to know more I suggest that you buy the book. It is a good
> >buy
> >and does have a lot of good thought out powers.
>
> I've owned the book since shortly after its release, and just read the
> passage in question. It makes no mention at all of a SPD Characteristic
> based on EGO rather than DEX.
> --
Yes and no. It tell that the character can have two sets of speed.
It states that a character can have but should not buy speed character
points with a limitation useable only with mental powers. But it tells
on how you can have two sets of speed. It is hard to explain in this
post
but you have to read the section to understand the rules involved.
read the section. I am not going to post it.
so buy the book. The section I will admit can be read several ways
but it does state that two speeds are and can be possible.
end of line.......
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 98 10:00:04
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Magic Shapeshifting Potions
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On Sat, 17 Jan 1998 02:01:35 +0000, Stirling Westrup wrote:
>So Sayeth Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net&>
>
>> << So how do you model the classical fantasy 'magic potion', such that a
>> player character can find one in a chest and be able to use it. Drinking
>> it lets the hero turn into any animal he wants, for up to 1 hour.
>>
>> And after you've modeled the potion, how do you model the alchemist
>> who makes a living creating and selling such potions?
>>
>> This problem seems to be a perennial one in Fantasy Hero games.>>
>
>> Most alchemists won't do this, for obvious reasons. For these
>> alchemists, try Transfer. The GM declares that various rare objects
>> have points in them that an alchemist can use. The alchemist then uses
>> Transfer to move the points from the materials to the potion, and then
>> the points are spent on the power, with appropriate limitations.
>>
>> The Transfer may be only workable on "proper" items. Thus, Transfer to
>> get points for healing may come from the horn of a unicorn, but not
>> from the teeth of a dragon.
>>
>
>I like this, in general, but it needs a proper set of rules. For instance, how
>do you model a Fletcher? He makes charges for bows. Are they independant? How
>about a swordsmith. What's a sword cost in real points? 6 or 8? Why does it
>take more/less time to make a 6-point sword than to make a 6-point potion?
These aren't magic items
>Anyway, I think what is needed is a set of rules for determining how a
>professional (or crafting) skill roll can be used to rework independant
>materials into independant items that are them freely available for use. It
>would take into account the different speeds of creation of different crafting
>skills, and would set limits on how many points can be put into an object how
>fast based on skill levels.
Just use the Time Chart and set a base time. A master swordsmith can
make a sword much faster than an apprentice. (ie the apprentice has to
get Extra Time bonuses to be assured of success)
>
>Its tricky though, so I don't expect to be happy with the rules I'm working
>on for a while yet. For example, can a swordsmith make a 6d6K sword?
Sure, for a giant. For a human, he'd need to enchant it or use
enchanted ore, or be favoured by the gods.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 98 10:13:36
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:49:04 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 06:37 PM 1/16/98, qts wrote:
>>On Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:39:36 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>
>>>At 10:06 PM 1/15/98, qts wrote:
>>>>> So would a lightning-fast Lockpicking ability be Transform (locked lock
>>>>>to unlocked lock)? If so, why would it be more difficult to pick a lock
>>>>>with high BODY than one with low BODY?
>>>>
>>>>How about using something along the lines of Extra-dimensional
>>>>Movement, Continuous
>>>
>>> I don't follow your line of thought here at all.
>>
>>Because you're continually moving through time at a different rate.
>
> Oh, now I understand. I was relating your suggestion specifically to
>Lockpicking and the BODY of a lock, but you were talking generally.
> Yeah, this kind of thing could work; in fact, I've done something
>similar in one of my past campaigns, and successfully. The big problem
>with it is that, in order to interact with the real world while in another
>dimension (even if it's a matching dimension that differs only in the
>passage of time), the character still must buy Indirect and
>Transdimensional (+3/4 total Advantage) on his STR, and any other Powers
>that he wants to use on others.
My idea was that's where the Continuous comes in - he's *continually*
XDMing in time, not in any other axis, so because he's not actually
leaving the Real World, you don't need Indirect etc. This is one area
where the SFX give you a real cost break.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 06:17:51 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Cost of Ego SPD?
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 11:33 PM 1/16/98 -0600, Kevin Roberts wrote:
>> >If you want to know more I suggest that you buy the book. It is a good
>> >buy
>> >and does have a lot of good thought out powers.
>>
>> I've owned the book since shortly after its release, and just read the
>> passage in question. It makes no mention at all of a SPD Characteristic
>> based on EGO rather than DEX.
>
>Yes and no. It tell that the character can have two sets of speed.
>It states that a character can have but should not buy speed character
>points with a limitation useable only with mental powers. But it tells
>on how you can have two sets of speed. It is hard to explain in this
>post
>but you have to read the section to understand the rules involved.
>
>read the section. I am not going to post it.
>
>so buy the book. The section I will admit can be read several ways
>but it does state that two speeds are and can be possible.
Apparently, you didn't believe me when I said I already have the book.
Because of that, and your (understandable) refusal to post the section in
question, I will post it:
---
SPD and Mental Powers
You may want to design a character that can use mental powers more
frequently than they can act physically. After all, in the Hero System if
you increase a character's SPD then the character can operform any sort of
action more often, and then can also run much faster. This may seem odd
for a mentalist character, who may not be able to run faster than the
average person. Characters who want to have Phases on which they can only
use their Mental Powers should not buy extra points of SPD with some sort
of Limitation. This tends to create as many problems as it solves, and is
not the best solution for game balance. Instead, characters can simply
sell off some inches of Running. Here's how it works:
In the Hero System the Speed Characteristic is a reflection of your
mental ability to recognize and evaluate the proper action in a combat
situation. rather than a purely physical rating of your ability to move or
react quickly (which is mostly represented by Dexterity). So it's not
unreasonable at all to say that the ability to use mental powers four times
in a turn (as a SPD 4 character would) also means that the character could
take physical actions (like movement or attacks) four times in a turn
instead. Now, in the case of a character that's mostly spent points on
mental abilities, they won't have much of a chance to hit someone or hurt
them with a punch, but they could try that if necessary.
The only thing that may seem odd is that a SPD 4 character can run twice
as fast as a SPD 2 character (both move at 6" per phase; the SPD 4
character moves 24" in a turn, the SPD 2 character moves 12" in a turn). A
simple way to rectify this is for the SPD 4 character to sell off 3" of
Running, which gives them back 6 points. Then they only move 3" per phase,
or a total of 12" per turn, the same total movement as a SPD 2 character.
Thus you can have a mentalist who acts like a SPD 4 character, but only
runs as fast as a SPD 2 character. This technique can, of course, be used
for other SPD ratings.
---
Now, please point out to me the part of the above text which discusses
SPD which is based on EGO instead of DEX.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 14:26:47 +0000
From: Stephen McGinness <S.McGinness@csm.ex.ac.uk>
Reply-To: csm.ex.ac.uk@exeter.ac.uk
Organization: Camborne School of Mines
Subject: Re: Cost of Ego SPD?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
I had a friend who wanted hi menyalist to act more
often in a round if he was using his ego powers
than if he was just doing regular stuff. In teh
end what we came up with was buying his speed as
follows
regular speed 4
ego speed 7
This meant he had three extra phases a round, only
for ego power actions, so we took it to work like
he had fixed phases on
3,6,9 and 12 just like normal, then he had three
extra phases, one between 3 and 6, one between, 6
and 9, and one between 9 and 12. The speed was
bought as normal as we reckoned the limitation of
having the actions limited to ego powers were
offset by the utility of the floating phases.
Obviously he could not use a floating phase on the
same segment as one of his regular phases and
therefore get two attack actions in one segment.
Stephen
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From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG>
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:03:10 +0000
Subject: Re: Magic Shapeshifting Potions
Priority: normal
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
So Sayeth qts <qts@nildram.co.uk&>
> On Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:19:52 -0500, Joe Claffey Jr. wrote:
>
> >"Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> asks,
> >>
> >>So how do you model the classical fantasy 'magic potion', such that a player
> >>character can find one in a chest and be able to use it. Drinking it lets the
> >>hero turn into any animal he wants, for up to 1 hour.
>
> Can you cite any sources? Usually the potion lets you assume the form
> of a *particular* animal.
>
If you are talking fantasy literature, you are entirely correct. This thread
started as a discussion of the problems I was having translating the AD&D
treasure tables to Hero System, with emphasis on the difficulties of potions of
polymorph.
> A potion is usualy a collection of Effects with the Advantage 'Trigger'
> (being consumed).
>
> > Usually a VPP: Animal Powers, used with a Universal Expendable Focus.
>
> Try Summon, and make an Ego Roll to avoid going wild.
>
This is a novel use of Summon, but it does have real problems. You have to
summon something with a given form, but with all of your knowledge and skills,
and then *YOU* have to vanish. What is the limitation *I cease to exist while
power is in effect* worth? Sounds like about a -5 or so to me...
--
Stirling Westrup | Use of the Internet by this poster
sti@cam.org | is not to be construed as a tacit
| endorsement of Western Technological
| Civilization or its appurtenances.
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org>
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG>
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 16:01:37 +0000
Subject: Re: Magic Shapeshifting Potions
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
So Sayeth qts <qts@nildram.co.uk&>
> On Sat, 17 Jan 1998 02:01:35 +0000, Stirling Westrup wrote:
>
> >So Sayeth Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net&>
> >
> >
> >I like this, in general, but it needs a proper set of rules. For instance, how
> >do you model a Fletcher? He makes charges for bows. Are they independant? How
> >about a swordsmith. What's a sword cost in real points? 6 or 8? Why does it
> >take more/less time to make a 6-point sword than to make a 6-point potion?
>
> These aren't magic items
So what? In Heroic campaigns what in one genre is a mage PC creating wands for
the whole party is, in a different genre, a Techie creating bazookas for the
whole party... Different SFX, exact same rules problem.
> >Its tricky though, so I don't expect to be happy with the rules I'm working
> >on for a while yet. For example, can a swordsmith make a 6d6K sword?
>
> Sure, for a giant. For a human, he'd need to enchant it or use
> enchanted ore, or be favoured by the gods.
Why? I am looking for a rule system here, not a bunch of random
jurisprudence... IE, show me some mechanics other than "GM says". As has been
pointed out MANY times on this list, if thats all you need, then you don't need
Hero Sys rules at all.
--
Stirling Westrup | Use of the Internet by this poster
sti@cam.org | is not to be construed as a tacit
| endorsement of Western Technological
| Civilization or its appurtenances.
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 98 16:46:24
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: campaign material
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
On Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:26:19 EST, Wgauld wrote:
>Any info on Champion games on or about the city of Boston.
>
>thanks
>Willie
>Wgauld@aol.com
>
I found a great source of city info that can be used for gaming. Write to the Board of
Tourism in the city of choice (you just wouldn't believe the amount of info I got on New
Orleans this way)
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 14:09:27 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> No ammount of "Mechanics" skill levels will allow me or you or anyone else
> to assemble a car's engine in under 10 seconds. This is completely outside
> the realm of skill levels. They do not allow you to perform tasks faster
> (though they do reduce the number of times you may need to try), and adding
> a limitation will not change that.
But we are not talking about a normal person!!! Thats the entire point of
this discussion. Speedsters (people who do things faster than normal [running,
hitting, cleaning the room, setting the table]) don't take the same time to do
things which you or I do.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 98 22:16:59
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Magic Shapeshifting Potions
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
On Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:03:10 +0000, Stirling Westrup wrote:
>So Sayeth qts <qts@nildram.co.uk&>
>
>> On Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:19:52 -0500, Joe Claffey Jr. wrote:
>>
>> >"Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> asks,
>> >>
>> >>So how do you model the classical fantasy 'magic potion', such that a player
>> >>character can find one in a chest and be able to use it. Drinking it lets the
>> >>hero turn into any animal he wants, for up to 1 hour.
>>
>> Can you cite any sources? Usually the potion lets you assume the form
>> of a *particular* animal.
>>
>
>If you are talking fantasy literature, you are entirely correct. This thread
>started as a discussion of the problems I was having translating the AD&D
>treasure tables to Hero System, with emphasis on the difficulties of potions of
>polymorph.
True, but I was making the point that the AD&D effect was not true to
the source.
>> A potion is usualy a collection of Effects with the Advantage 'Trigger'
>> (being consumed).
>>
>> > Usually a VPP: Animal Powers, used with a Universal Expendable Focus.
>>
>> Try Summon, and make an Ego Roll to avoid going wild.
>>
>
>This is a novel use of Summon, but it does have real problems. You have to
>summon something with a given form,
You can use the +2 Advantage 'Summon Anything' here.
>but with all of your knowledge and skills,
>and then *YOU* have to vanish. What is the limitation *I cease to exist while
>power is in effect* worth? Sounds like about a -5 or so to me...
If you go this route, then I'd say it's a zero limitation, as the
advantages equal the disadvantages (who'd suspect that cat of being the
Dread Lord Ged?). I have to say that I'm not sure of this mechanism and
have not had cause to use it, as I normally play truer to type.
Hopefully the 5th Edition will work out this kink.
It's an interesting problem.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Magic Shapeshifting Potions
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 19:26:28 -0800
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On Friday, January 16, 1998 10:42 PM, Stirling Westrup wrote:
<snip>
<<I like this, in general, but it needs a proper set of rules. For
instance, how
do you model a Fletcher? He makes charges for bows. Are they
independant? How
about a swordsmith. What's a sword cost in real points? 6 or 8? Why
does it
take more/less time to make a 6-point sword than to make a 6-point
potion?>>
<snip>
<<Its tricky though, so I don't expect to be happy with the rules I'm
working
on for a while yet. For example, can a swordsmith make a 6d6K sword?
Why
not? Would your reason also prevent 50 stonemasons from building a
mighty
castle?>>
Simple.
Some things can be readily done in the real world. Some cannot. If
something cannot be readily done in the real world, then it needs an
SFX that allows it-- magic, super science, etc. If this SFX isn't as
readily available as normal technology is in, say, the US, then it
cannot be built by pure skill-- it requires that you create it with a
Power.
This power could be a VPP ("Like my Mega-Death Cannon? I built it out
of spare parts in my lab."), or it could be something different, such
as my construction. Allowed methods in a campaign are up to the GM.
Filksinger
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Date: Wednesday, April 14, 1999 11:37 AM