Week Ending January 17, 1998

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From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:54:45 EST 
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long) 
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In a message dated 98-01-10 21:31:43 EST, you write: 
 
 Martial Arts damage classes cost 4 points per DC.  HA costs 3 points per 
 DC.  There are a number of cases where DC does not equal active points. >> 
 
I've seen the MA DC costing 4, but where does it say that each 3pt HA equals 
one DC? 
 
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From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 02:05:24 EST 
Subject: Re: STR Cost + 5th Ed. Suggestion 
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In a message dated 98-01-10 21:51:21 EST, you write: 
 
<< On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Firelynx16 wrote: 
  
 > I agree with you that Str can be misused to get points for free, but almost 
 > anything in the game can be misused.  It's up to the GM to keep players in 
 > line on all points, not just whether someone bought up Str when their 
concept 
 > doesn't call for it, just to get less expensive Figured Characteristics. 
Just 
 > as the GM keeps the players from abusing Power Frameworks, he/she has the 
same 
 > responsibility when dealing with Str. 
 >  
 > That said, then if the GM *is* doing his/her job and keeps Str from being 
 > abused, there really shouldn't be a problem.    
  
 This is a fair statement (to which someone will respond by saying anyone 
 can "reverse engineer" concept in order to attain GM approval), but I 
 should also point out that the more of these things a system has, the more 
 cumbersome, confusing, and challenging it is to GM. It's exactly that kind 
 of inaccessibility that makes something like Fuzion seem like a good idea 
 to salespeople. 
  
 GMs, especially new GMs, need some help if they are expected to enforce 
 the spirit over the letter of the rules. It would help if they didn't have 
 to guess at the spirit of the rules. For instance, it could say in the 
 BBB:  
  
 "You might notice that STR and some other characteristics give you 
 more than their points' worth in figured characteristics and other 
 effects. It might seem that you're getting more than you pay for. It is 
 for exactly this reason that characters are forbidden to buy down more 
 than one figured characteristic--not enforcing such a rule would allow 
 characters to gain infinite points! However, characteristics are intended 
 to represent a package of effects associated with the basic abilities of a 
 character. We made figured characteristics more difficult to buy up 
 individually to discourage buying the characteristics' effects "a la 
 carte." GMs should keep a close watch on characteristic values in their 
 campaigns, and make sure that they are believable given the concept of the 
 character. If characteristic values are left unchecked, some players will 
 buy them up to unreasonable levels out of pressure to compete--leaving 
 precious few points remaining for unique abilities and skills that will 
 help differentiate the characters, making them more realistic and 
 enjoyable to play. It is a good idea to encourage players to have both 
 strong and weak characteristics. Furthermore, GMs should warn players who 
 buy up more than a few figured characteristics that they're probably not 
 doing themselves a favor... it's best to leave these values near where the 
 characteristics "figure" they should be." 
  
 I *DEFINITELY* want to see a lot of this in 5th edition--otherwise, we'll 
 be getting another set of rules whose spirit perhaps only veterans 
 understand. Although, given many of the debates on this list, even that is 
 in question. 
  
 GURPS had sidebars on every page--but their sidebars were places where 
 they threw more discontiguous rules at you. How about having sidebars that 
 explain some of the rationale and spirit behind the rules on the same 
 page? That way, the rules are all available as reference, without the 
 meta-discussion directly in the way, while at the same time, the spirit 
 of the law is right there by the letter there for all to see.  
  
  >> 
 
>From one Texan to another, I like this a lot.  They could even use the three 
analysts from later Champions supplements to explain things like this in the 
sidebars.  In addition to examples, examples, examples!!! 
 
It wasn't until I joined this list that I realized just how disparate the 
'understanding' of the rules among the different GMs was.  The different 
groups I've been in all had a couple of new takes on the rules, but they were 
minor, and otherwise very consistant.  Seeing the extremely wide range of 
'takes' on the system just points out how vague and open to interpretation 
they really are.  And how futile arguments about those vague rules can be. :) 
 
'Lynx 
 
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From: Doc Weird <DocWeird@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 02:40:43 EST 
Subject: Re:.STR Cost + 5th Ed. Suggestion 
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In a message dated 98-01-11 02:22:11 EST, Firelynx16@AOL.COM writes: 
 
<<  Seeing the extremely wide range of 
 'takes' on the system just points out how vague and open to interpretation 
 they really are.  And how futile arguments about those vague rules can be. :) 
  
 'Lynx 
  >> 
 
 
    You must realize that this is the LOVE OF "DEBATE" that spurs some of 
these ideas as much as Love of the Game 
 
--------------------------------------------------------Doc 
 
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Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:49:43 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
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At 03:03 AM 1/11/98 -0800, Captain Spith wrote: 
>   In fact, there ARE Adjustment Power effects that are canon by the 
>BBB.  I know it may seem paltry to those in the 'point crock' camp, but 
>that nifty little adjustment power advantage of "affects all powers of a 
>give sfx" applies EXACTLY in this instance.  If the attack is bought to 
>drain/supress/whatever all powers of X SFX at once, an entire EC - by 
>definition - will be affected across the board.  I have always used this 
>as a defining point for ECs; by definition of an EC, an attack vs. SFX 
>will apply to all EC powers.  I'm sure there are also other game effects 
>which work on this. 
 
Yes, but this is a consequence of the Power (which had to buy a +2 Advantage 
for the privilege), not of the EC.  I could design the character without the 
EC and the same consequence would still follow. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa  
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 00:17:08 -0800 
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On Saturday, January 10, 1998 12:43 AM, Len Carpenter wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>To which Filksinger replied: 
<snip> 
>> 
>>Here's a thought. The deadlift, squat, or clean and jerk may be 
>>interesting, but they aren't necessarily what is being used in the 
STR 
>>chart. A number of people have demonstrated the ability to lift 
>>weights much greater than the squat or deadlift. They place their 
>>shoulders under something and lift it by an inch or so, or use a 
>>harness for lifting a similar amount. I recall one man who, every 
>>birthday, would lift a weight considerably more than 1,000 lbs once 
>>for each year old he is. He was 72 last I checked. 
>> 
>> If we could find out the absolute maximum that any human has ever 
>> gotten off the ground, that may be what we want to use to bring the 
>> STR chart back in line. 
>> 
>> Filksinger 
> 
> 
>I don't think such absolute max figure would be very useful, 
considering the 
>sometimes elaborate means used to achieve such lifts and the very 
limited 
>usefulness of such lifting methods.  Leafing through my old 1985 
edition of 
>the Guinness Book of World Records, I see that Paul Anderson, in 
1957, once 
>raised 6,270 lbs. using a back lift (weight raised off trestles). 
Going back 
>to 1895, a Mrs. Josephine Blatt once raised 3,564 lbs. using a 
>hip-and-harness lift (whatever that is.) 
 
 
Thanks for the figures. The hip-and-harness lift I believe is when a 
heavy harness is fitted to your hips and shoulders, and a hook between 
your legs is attached to the weight. 
 
>My take on the game's lift figures is that they're a measure of 
useful work 
>can be done with STR, such as picking up and carrying a person or 
object of 
>up to the maximum mass--albeit carrying the person at far from top 
speed--or 
>carrying that maximum mass in gear well-distributed over the body.  A 
>character with a 10 STR could, with effort, pick up and carry a man 
weighing 
>up to 220 lbs. from a burning building, carrying him the way 
firefighters are 
>taught, using the strength of the entire body, not just the arms.  If 
the 
>victim to be rescued weighs more than this, the rescuer would have to 
get 
>another person's help, drag the heavy victim, or try Pushing his STR. 
 
 
The shoulder lift is a useful lift. Imagine you are under a car with 
your leg trapped. A shoulder lift could be used to move the car, even 
if no one on earth could deadlift it. Additionally, even if it 
couldn't be deadlifted by the definition of the various power lifting 
rules, it might be lifted just enough using a deadlift-style lift. 
 
>As Filksinger mentioned in another post, the weight a character can 
press 
>could be viewed as roughly half what he can lift.  That's a 
rule-of-thumb 
>I've used every since I started converting Marvel characters into 
Champions 
>stats several years ago.  Hence, a 23 STR hero could safely press 300 
kg, a 
>25 STR man 400 kg. 
> 
>Note the adverb "safely."  Since Tokyo Mark's response, I've been 
thinking a 
>bit about the use of STR in athletic contests like weightlifting. 
Let's say 
>that the amount of mass a character can press above his head without 
worry of 
>injuring himself is indeed half what he can normally lift.  A 20 STR 
>character could press 400/2 = 200 kg without risk of injury. 
> 
>Now place him in a contest where the stakes are high, as in going for 
the 
>gold, but it's not a life-or-death matter.  He tries to Push his STR. 
An 
>automatic STR boost of +5 with a successful EGO roll in such a 
contest isn't 
>warranted, but perhaps a graduated STR boost is.  So for every two 
points by 
>which he makes his EGO roll, he gains a +1 STR Push. 
> 
>This Push entails a risk of injury, though.  He now must make a CON 
roll at 
>-1 per point of STR Pushed.  If he fails, he suffers, say, 1d6 or 2d6 
of 
>normal damage to an appropriate body location, with no subtraction 
from this 
>damage for his PD.  If he fails the modified CON roll by 5 or more, 
he 
>suffers 3d6 or 4d6 damage (again ignoring his PD) and an automatic 
impairing 
>injury to the body location--he throws his back out, tears a bicep 
muscle, 
>and so on. 
> 
>For example, an 18 CON weightlifter has Pushed his STR by +4, so his 
modified 
>CON roll is 13-4=9 or less.  If he rolls a 14 or higher, he suffers 
the 
>impairing injury. 
> 
>The body location injury should be reasonable, of course.  ("Let's 
see, you 
>rolled a 3 for body location . . . okay, I rule your character 
strained 
>himself so badly he accidentally bit the tip of his tongue off.") 
> 
>In fact, some form of self-injury rule could apply any time a 
character 
>Pushes his STR or  another power, depending on the power's SFX. 
Maybe there 
>should be a small chance of burning out an EB that is Pushed, or some 
such 
>restriction.  So in addition to expending END at a higher rate, the 
character 
>who performs a Push under any circumstance risks his personal 
well-being. 
> 
 
This is all very interesting, but it makes the initial problem worse, 
not better. Presently, the best deadlift in the world is roughly 
equivalent to a 20 STR lift. If weightlifters used even a small push 
to reach that 20 STR, then the world's best wouldn't even be a twenty, 
they'd be less. This puts us in the position that the world's best 
weightlifters are only about an 18 STR, making even characters with 19 
or 20 technically superhuman. 
 
My suggestion was intended to tweak the chart a bit. As it stands now, 
the best humans should clearly be capable of having a 30 INT, EGO, and 
PRE. Where the best humans are for lifting STR, assuming a deadlift, 
is a 20 if you forbid pushing, lower if you allow it. The best CON, 
DEX, and BODY are rather difficult to determine. 
 
Another problem we have is that the fastest normal human on earth, 
assuming a 20 DEX, is barely superior to anyone else when it comes to 
feats of dexterity. If an average man can do it fifty percent of the 
time, our fastest human can only make it just more than 75% of the 
time. It becomes impossible to impress people with your speed, as your 
chances of failing are just too great. 
 
If the lifting weight on the STR chart were a shoulder lift, the 
strongest man ever would have a 34 or 35 STR. This is too high. It is 
also six times the world's best deadlift, and then some. However, it 
does give us a possibility. 
 
Let us assume that the most that a person could lift by a measurable 
amount, under ideal conditions, is 2.5 times the most _useful_ lift 
you could get. Since the best ever was 6,270 lbs, this amount divided 
by 2.5 gives a maximum lift of 2,508 lbs, or 1,140 kg. If this number 
is compared to the Champion's lifting range, we get a 28 STR. Some 
heroes, with GM permission, could be even stronger without being 
superhuman, particularly in the superhero genres. Captain America is a 
perfect example. 
 
If this were done, then it gives less granularity at heroic levels. It 
would make a greater, more significant difference between average and 
very good. It would also bring most of the published characters back 
into a reasonable range. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
 
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"Rick Holding\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 98 10:27:11  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long) 
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On Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:39:07 -0800, Rick Holding wrote: 
 
>Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
><<Snipped>>  <<But nothing wrong with what you said>> 
>> q> It's CON that's more important here, to prevent you being stunned as 
>> q> (opposed to being unconcious). The high Stun numbers which crop up mean 
>> q> thatif you're going to go under, then go under you will. 
>>  
>> Stunned means your CV is pathetic... but you still have one.  Unconscious 
>> means your CV is 0. 
> 
>	CV is halved if stunned 
 
And in FH, it usually isn't that great to start with 
 
>> >> And it adds to your sword's damage. 
>>  
>> q> Again, minimally - 1 or 2 DC. 
>>  
>> And again, it still adds, and at 15-20 Strength it is more like 3-4DC.  The 
>> point is not the the ammount Strength adds; the point is that it *does* 
>> add, and that it adds much more than the character paid for. 
> 
>	I've forgotten if the start of this was referring to FH.  If it was,  
>then strength minimums apply and you need that 18 strength to swing that 2  
>handed sword.  If you are using a long sword (strength min 13) then 18-20  
>stregnth will only give 1 DC. 
 
Correct. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa  
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 02:42:42 -0800 
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On Saturday, January 10, 1998 1:03 AM, TokyoMark wrote: 
 
 
>>In fact, some form of self-injury rule could apply any time a 
character 
>>Pushes his STR or  another power, depending on the power's SFX. 
Maybe there 
>>should be a small chance of burning out an EB that is Pushed, or 
some such 
>>restriction.  So in addition to expending END at a higher rate, the 
character 
>>who performs a Push under any circumstance risks his personal 
well-being. 
>> 
> 
>I'm not sure I'd use this as a rule, but it's not unrealistic.  A 
number of 
>people have been injured in weight lifting.  Sometimes sickeningly. 
I'll 
>never forget watching one of those 'World's Strongest Man' shows on 
ESPN 
>(It was an old one with Ken Patera).  In the last event (The 
refrigerator 
>carry) one of the lifters very obviously blew out his knee. 
 
Just last weekend, one of the top weightlifters in the world had a 
heart attack and died during a lift. It is not a safe sport. 
 
Filksinger 
 
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Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 03:03:16 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
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Vox Ludator! wrote: 
>  
> At 05:59 PM 1/9/98, qts wrote: 
> >It only has no mechanical effect if you as the GM say so. I seldom use 
> >ECs, and don't play with large ones a la Champions, but it has 
> >previously been suggested that once a power within the EC has been 
> >Drained to the point where the EC bonus is counted (usually half) then 
> >the other EC powers should suffer equally sounds fine to me. 
>  
> Incorrect.  The proper way to say this is "it only HAS a mechanical effect 
> if you as the GM say so" (emphasis mine) -- no mechanical effect is the 
> by-the-book interpretation, whereas the Adjustment Power effects are a house 
> ruling. 
 
   In fact, there ARE Adjustment Power effects that are canon by the 
BBB.  I know it may seem paltry to those in the 'point crock' camp, but 
that nifty little adjustment power advantage of "affects all powers of a 
give sfx" applies EXACTLY in this instance.  If the attack is bought to 
drain/supress/whatever all powers of X SFX at once, an entire EC - by 
definition - will be affected across the board.  I have always used this 
as a defining point for ECs; by definition of an EC, an attack vs. SFX 
will apply to all EC powers.  I'm sure there are also other game effects 
which work on this. 
   For example, an Ice-powered character in the desert will have ALL 
his/her powers affected by the heat/dryness.  A non-frameworked 
character may on the other hand have some ice abilities and some nonice 
abilities, thus be less affected by the situation.  The GM has at 
his/her disposal unlimited possibilities for putting characters in 
situations and/or environments in which their SFX are played upon, in 
fact, this is the GM's job. 
 
   Also, as long as I'm blathering about it already, it is significant 
to note that ECs offer a SMALLER point break than other frameworks, thus 
should be less limiting.  It has also been pointed out that perhaps ALL 
frameworks are point crocks.  And perhaps STR is a point crock.  And 
Martial Arts is probably a point crock.... 
   I think that perhaps everything taken together may not be quite as 
broken as some think.  Maybe there are - in fact - actually only a few 
aspects which are instead OVERpriced, rather than the seeming 
unbelievable percentage of the system being UNDERpriced....    Just a 
couple o' thoughts.... 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
 
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Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 03:17:44 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
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Subject: Re: Characteristics Max Disadvantage 
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Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>  
> On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Captain Spith wrote: 
>  
> >    First of all, lemme state that I do NOT believe in nearly any of the 
> > claims abounding that STR is horribly underpriced (which people kept 
> > typing in as 'overpriced') or that ECs are meaningless freebie points, 
> > etc.  I simply stay out of the discussions because nobody is ever going 
> > to change their minds, 
>  
> Nonsense. Do you think I sprang from the womb with my opinions on such 
> matters as the Great Linked Debate and the STR problem fully-formed? 
> People on the list convinced me. 
 
   I am just hypothesizing that there was some passage of time between 
the springing from the womb and your joining the list.  Just possibly. 
 
   My point was simply that through all the dozens and scores of posts 
that _I_ personally have read I have not noticed any (I'm not saying 
there never _were_ any) converts to a new opinion on the matter(s). 
 
   Just for the record, the moment *I* sprang from the womb, I thought 
that STR cost WAS a point crock, but before I joined the list, I had 
decided for myself that it was not.  No arguement given by the list so 
far has changed my mind. 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 03:22:14 -0800 
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On Saturday, January 10, 1998 9:47 AM, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
 
 
>On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, Filksinger wrote: 
> 
<snip> 
>> Ah. Well, if that type of trouble is the only one that causes you 
>> problems, then I would have to cut it down to all Frameworks and 
CON. 
> 
>It's hardly the only thing which gives me trouble, but it's several 
orders 
>of magnitude worse than a simple case of a cost being "off". One can 
>accept that no point system is going to be perfect. However, it's far 
from 
>unreasonable to expect as a bare minimum that the system be able to 
>distinguish between a useful ability and a drawback. 
> 
>(And this is something like the 20th or 30th time somebody in this 
thread 
>has said "Frameworks" when they mean "Elemetal Control", and it's 
getting 
>bloody annoying.) 
 
 
I did _not_ say Frameworks when I meant Elemental Control. I said "all 
Frameworks", so obviously I was admitting there was more than one. 
Multipower can easily be a far greater point crock than EC, and VPP 
can be even worse. 
 
>> >> So with the ridiculous Limitation value of -1 for not being able 
to 
>> >> fire non-linked attacks together, you still don't come close to 
the 
>> >> cost savings of Multipower. 
>> > 
>> >You know, if you call your _own_ assumptions ridiculous, you're 
not 
>> >going to convince anybody.:) You're right; a -1 for "cannot be 
used with 
>> >certain other powers" is ridiculous; according to my BBB (pp 
114-115), 
>> >it's a -9 Limitation, except you need to pay full price for one of 
>> >those powers. 
>> > 
>> >(Which isn't exactly right, but you get my point). 
>> 
>> If your point is that you agree with me that Multipower is also a 
>> "point crock", and is not significantly better than EC in this 
>> respect, then yes, I do.:) 
> 
>How on earth could that possibly have been my point, when it's the 
exact 
>opposite of what I said? 
 
 
I said "if" for a reason. 
 
>My point was that Champions specifies a certain amount of point break 
for 
>the drawback of not being able to use Powers simultaneously. Inventin 
g 
>your own mechanic to do this, assigning a cost to it which is 
sometimes 
>higher than the cost of Multipower, and using this to attempt to show 
that 
>Multipower is underpriced is a pretty feeble argument IMO. 
 
 
I'm afraid I don't understand. I gave the Limitation the ridiculously 
high figure of -1. You point out that it is closer to -9, yet you are 
arguing that this is _not_ a point crock? 
 
I don't understand this at all. The BBB gives STR a value of 1 STR per 
5 pts., and you say that STR costs too little. I point out that 
Multipower saves way to much, and you argue that I am wrong because 
the BBB says so? 
 
A value of -1 for that Limitation is ridiculous. A value of -9 is 
_LUDICROUS_. 
 
>> A character who increases their Figured Characteristics via STR is 
>> taking advantage of how STR works, both in the game and real life. 
If 
>> I decided to get harder to knock out, more resistant to blunt 
impacts, 
>> and increase my ability to recover from fatigue, strength building 
>> exercises would be a major part of it. In fact, I'm not certain how 
I 
>> would go about building up those three in the real world without 
it. 
> 
>I don't see the relevance here at all. 
 
 
All Base Characteristics (except PRE and COM) are cheaper than what it 
costs to buy up their various abilities with Figured Characteristics, 
skill levels, and powers. This is realistic, as in real life it is 
these Base Characteristics that are usually exercised in order to 
improve these abilities. 
 
It is obvious from comparing the various characteristics to the cost 
of buying what they do separately that characteristics are _supposed_ 
to be more efficient-- they always are. The separate components are 
supposed to cost more than the characteristic. STR merely shows this 
in Figured characteristics, other characteristics show this elsewhere. 
 
Filksinger 
 
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 03:46:24 -0800 
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On Saturday, January 10, 1998 9:53 AM, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
 
 
>On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, Filksinger wrote: 
> 
>> If 1 DEX cost 10 pts, people would scream about how overpriced it 
is. 
> 
>Probably. 
 
 
Well, at least we agree on something. 
 
>> How would they be able to prove this? By comparing it to other ways 
to 
>> buy all of its abilities, and show how many points buying them 
saves. 
> 
>Yes. Similarly, if buying an Energy Blast not usable at night and an 
>Energy Blast only usable at night cost a total amount less than just 
>buying a straight Energy Blast, there would be a problem. 
 
 
As above. This is a good sign, if not for this argument, then for 
future discussions. 
 
>> If DEX cost only 2 points for each point of DEX, this is how you 
would 
>> determine that it was underpriced. 
> 
>It does, actually. And yeah, I think it is underpriced at that cost. 
> 
>> >STR is different; with STR, you get things which aren't directly a 
>> >part of STR's definition (the amount of HTH damage you can do and 
the 
>> >amount you can lift, carry or throw), and the value of those 
things is 
>> >more than the cost of the STR itself. In effect, the actual 
physical 
>> >strength costs nothing. 
>> 
>> STR is a characteristic, not a power. 
> 
>Yes, what of it? 
> 
>> It _is_ an inherent property of STR, when not a super power, that 
it 
>> makes you more resistant to injury and generally fitter, and this 
>> quality would tend to be reflected in superstrength as well. 
> 
>These things most certainly are not an inherent property of the 
ability to 
>exert more physical force. They may correlate strongly with it, but 
this 
>is immaterial. 
 
 
By this argument, no Figured Characteristics are valid. Are you 
arguing that STR is overpriced, or that Figured Characteristics 
shouldn't exist? 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"cptspith@teleport.com\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 98 12:13:50  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 11 Jan 1998 03:03:16 -0800, Captain Spith wrote: 
 
>   Also, as long as I'm blathering about it already, it is significant 
>to note that ECs offer a SMALLER point break than other frameworks, thus 
>should be less limiting. 
 
The benefit of an EC increases with the points in the EC, plus you can 
have all effects in the EC active simultaneously, which is not true of 
the MP 
 
>   I think that perhaps everything taken together may not be quite as 
>broken as some think.  Maybe there are - in fact - actually only a few 
>aspects which are instead OVERpriced, rather than the seeming 
>unbelievable percentage of the system being UNDERpriced....    Just a 
>couple o' thoughts.... 
 
You do realise that you're going to be burned at the stake for heresy? 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 98 12:15:43  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Characteristics Too High 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sat, 10 Jan 1998 22:25:21 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
 
>On Friday, January 09, 1998 9:56 PM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
> 
>>At 09:26 AM 1/8/98 -0600, Vox Ludator! wrote: 
><snip> 
>>>This *is* a tenuous parallel, because even Cap -- with his 
>colossally 
>>>impressive and exaggerated musculature -- is explicitly a 20 STR 
>(800 lb. 
>>>maximum).  Created by a HERO player, he'd probably have a 30. :/ 
>> 
>>   Question:  Is this 800 lbs a bench press, or a dead lift?  The 
>things I 
>>know about weightlifting could be counted on one's fingers, but one 
>of them 
>>happens to be that what one can bench press is typically about half 
>what 
>>one can dead lift.  If that 800 pound max is a bench press, then 
>Cap's STR 
>>would come to about 25, which is what I'd give him from observation 
>and such. 
> 
> 
>It isn't a benchpress, its an old lift that was used in the days 
>before clean and jerk and snatch. The press, as best as I can tell, 
>was simply getting it from the ground to your head. 
 
I've always viewed the weight you can lift based on STR to be a dead lift (lift from  
ground to thigh level) - based on it being the maximum you could lift (and I can dead lift  
weight that I haven't a chance of getting over my head). 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:58:24 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Filksinger wrote: 
 
> By this argument, no Figured Characteristics are valid. Are you 
> arguing that STR is overpriced, or that Figured Characteristics 
> shouldn't exist? 
 
I take it you haven't been reading the entire thread. (Which probably 
makes you a tad more sensible than those of us who have...) I've mentioned 
a couple of times that I'd like to see Figured Characteristics get the 
axe; not only is it a good idea in its own right, but it's the cleanest 
way of handling the STR/CON problem and it just generally makes it easier 
to gauge the real cost of the Primary Characteristics. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 07:02:03 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:46 PM 1/11/98 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>Another thing that cannot be properly simulated in Champions. No 
>matter how good my hold, you still get a roll every phase. Assuming 
>anything like a fair competition, you will escape within well under a 
>minute, most of the time. OTOH, some judo holds, once successfully 
>executed, are all but inescapable. 
 
In my experience (given, wrestling, not judo), no hold is truly inescapable 
-- not because of any flaws in technique, but simply due to the "penny 
effect".  Hold a penny at arm's length -- you'll find that after a minute or 
so, it feels like it weighs about 20 lbs. On a similar principle, your 
ability to hold an opponent degrades as you get fatigued from staying in 
relatively the same position for long periods of time. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:11:43 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Filksinger wrote: 
 
> >> Ah. Well, if that type of trouble is the only one that causes you 
> >> problems, then I would have to cut it down to all Frameworks and 
> >> CON. 
 
[...] 
  
> I did _not_ say Frameworks when I meant Elemental Control. I said "all 
> Frameworks", so obviously I was admitting there was more than one. 
> Multipower can easily be a far greater point crock than EC, and VPP 
> can be even worse. 
 
Can you get into situations with Multipower and VPP where reducing the 
level of an ability results in a higher cost? (Or vice-versa) I haven't 
been able to find any. 
 
> >My point was that Champions specifies a certain amount of point break 
> >for the drawback of not being able to use Powers simultaneously. 
> >Inventing your own mechanic to do this, assigning a cost to it which 
> >is sometimes higher than the cost of Multipower, and using this to 
> >attempt to show that Multipower is underpriced is a pretty feeble 
> >argument IMO. 
>  
> I'm afraid I don't understand. I gave the Limitation the ridiculously 
> high figure of -1. 
 
That's not ridiculously high, it's ridiculously low. 
 
> You point out that it is closer to -9, yet you are arguing that this is 
> _not_ a point crock? 
 
Correct. Do you have an argument for _why_ the "+0.1 Advantage on one 
Power, -9 Limitation on the rest" set-up is under-costed? It seems fine to 
me: if you want a character who can only have 60 pts worth of Power active 
at a given time, it's going to cost you 60 pts plus some change, with the 
amount of change proportional to the amount of versatility you have. 
Perfectly reasonable. 
 
> I don't understand this at all. The BBB gives STR a value of 1 STR per 
> 5 pts.,  
 
Assuming you mean 1 per 1. 
 
> and you say that STR costs too little. I point out that Multipower  
> saves way to much, and you argue that I am wrong because the BBB says 
> so? 
 
It's the nature of the argument that's different. If I said, "Look, here's 
a new stat called 'FORCE': costs 10x, allows a character to lift 2^(FRC/5) 
* 25 kg and do (FRC/5)d6 in hand-to-hand... hey STR is a lot cheaper than 
that; STR must be broken", I don't imagine many people would listen. 
Similarly, inventing a new Limitation to duplicate Multipowers, giving it 
a cost higher than Multipower, and using this to attempt to show that 
Multipowers are under-priced doesn't strike me as much of an argument. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:22:34 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> >>    Teleportation, Usable Against Others, Indirect, Transdimensional, Self 
> >> Only? 
[...] 
>    To word it more precisely:  UAO, Only vs Alternate Selves in Other 
> Universes and/or Timelines. 
 
To which I suppose the only real response is "HUH???". What on Earth are 
all those Modifiers supposed to do, and why do you find them preferable to 
simple Teleport, only when first appears? 
 
> >>    No thank you.  Duplication at Range is much simpler and more direct. 
> > 
> >Does it make more sense for the cost of this ability to be related to the 
> >point cost of the duplicate, or the distance at which the character can do 
> >it? IMO it's definitely the latter. 
>  
>    Seems to me, about equally strongly, the former. 
 
Do you feel, then, that every character with Teleport should have to pay a 
cost proportional to their total point cost? If not, how is this case any 
different? 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: LBoyd67730 <LBoyd67730@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:37:13 EST 
Subject: Re: Military HEROs 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
i am active duty navy. electrican's mate nuclear powerd qualified 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:39:22 -0400 (AST) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Firelynx16 wrote: 
 
> I agree with you that Str can be misused to get points for free, but 
> almost anything in the game can be misused.  It's up to the GM to keep 
> players in line on all points, not just whether someone bought up Str 
> when their concept doesn't call for it, just to get less expensive 
> Figured Characteristics.  Just as the GM keeps the players from abusing 
> Power Frameworks, he/she has the same responsibility when dealing with 
> Str. 
 
You know, every time the STR problem comes up, somebody (usually 2 or 3 
somebodies) comes out with the observation that players shouldn't take 
STR's higher than their concept mandates. So, I'm going to ask, as 
politely as I can, for somebody to explain how this relates even _vaguely_ 
to the issue at hand. Pretty please? 
 
> That said, then if the GM *is* doing his/her job and keeps Str from 
> being abused, there really shouldn't be a problem. 
 
HOW? How does the GM only allowing some players access to the crock in any 
way deal with the basic problem that STR _shouldn't_ be a Disadvantage? 
 
> I have a question for you now...  Have you really seen it to be true 
> that Bricks (PC Bricks, who are built for concept) are *really* more 
> powerful in head to head combat with other character types? 
 
They are, of course, but I don't see the point in discussing it. When 
mathematical evidence is available, anecdotal evidence is weak to the 
point of being completely irrelevant. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Subject: Heromaker questions 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,4-5,7-8,10-11,13-15 
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts) 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:16:08 EST 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
A friend and I are working on an article on handicapped gamers.  I have a 
couple questions about the Heromaker software: 
 
1.  Does it let you save character sheets (or anything else it generates) 
as a text file, or does it only output in some custom format? 
 
2.  Is the interface heavy on graphics like the AD&D CD-ROM that TSR put 
out, or is it more text-based? 
 
3.  Related to question 2, is there a demo version out there on the net 
someplace? 
 
Feel free to respond privately unless you think the list would be 
interested. 
 
Leah 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 07:34:18 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:18 PM 1/10/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
> 
>>> "Teleportation" is the power you are looking for. 
> 
>BG>    Teleportation, Usable Against Others, Indirect, Transdimensional, 
>BG> Self Only? 
> 
>No, the duplicate has Teleportation.  For himself.  Nothing wrong with 
>that. 
 
   I think the original intent was to have the Duplicate's pop in at range 
on his *initial* appearance, not the following Phase. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 11 Jan 1998 11:07:35 -0500 
Lines: 32 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "F" == Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> writes: 
 
F> In a message dated 98-01-10 21:31:43 EST, you write: 
F>  Martial Arts damage classes cost 4 points per DC.  HA costs 3 points per 
F>  DC.  There are a number of cases where DC does not equal active points. >> 
 
Fix your citation scheme; I wrote this, not you. 
 
F> I've seen the MA DC costing 4, but where does it say that each 3pt HA 
F> equals one DC? 
 
Look at the Damage Class table, the row that says "1DC" = 1 pip of killing 
damage or 1d6 normal damage.  HA costs 3 points per 1d6 of normal damage. 
1d6 of normal damage is 1DC.  Therefore HA costs 3 points per 1DC.  QED. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear. 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 11 Jan 1998 11:21:18 -0500 
Lines: 27 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
BG>    I think the original intent was to have the Duplicate's pop in at 
BG> range on his *initial* appearance, not the following Phase. 
 
Yeah, and the only power in the book that allows anything to "appear" on 
the other side of an opaque, solid wall is Teleportation; the Ranged 
advantage will not cut it as it requires line of sight.  Work with it a 
bit. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear. 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 11 Jan 1998 11:40:58 -0500 
Lines: 29 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "Rat" == Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes: 
 
Rat> Yeah, and the only power in the book that allows anything to "appear" 
Rat> on the other side of an opaque, solid wall is Teleportation; the 
Rat> Ranged advantage will not cut it as it requires line of sight.  Work 
Rat> with it a bit. 
 
By the way, here is a hint: 
 
You can activate as many powers during your action phase as you can afford 
the Endurance cost, so long as you make only one attack. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
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Reply-To: <dflacks@ican.net> 
From: "dflacks" <dflacks@ican.net> 
Subject: Fantasy Magic - Multiple Clerics 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:44:03 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mail0.tor.acc.ca id MAA14266 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Thanks to qts and E. David Miller for responding to my last question.  I 
still have some quesitons about multiple clerics though. 
 
FAMILIARS 
I now know what I am going to do with familiars.  The familiar will have 
itís own magic skill roll and the GM (meaning me) will roll the skill.  
That roll will act as a complementary skill roll, giving the wizard a 
positive modifier if it is made.  The modifier will be in effect so long as 
the familiar is in physical contact with the wizard.  If the familiar stays 
in contact with the mage thru the course of several spells, the modifier 
would apply to all of them.  If the familiar breaks contact with the mage 
the modifier instantly stops.  When, and if, contract is resumed a new 
skill roll will be made. 
 
The problem with using an AID is that I only what the familiarís bonus to 
the wizardís magic skill roll to apply when the wizard is in physical 
contact with the familiar.  The bonus should continue to apply so long as 
he is in physical contact with the familiar.  This continuous, abruptly 
ending feature plays havoc with the fade rate portion of the AID power.  To 
avoid a confusing kludge I am not going to use the AID power.  A Familiar 
complementarily skill is easier for me to manage and price, after all the 
player has to pay points for his or her characterís familiar. 
 
Most familiars will be small.  Since thier ability to boost magic skill 
rolls is useful during combat, players may want them there.  A small 
familiar, like a cat, is small enough to fit inside a wizardís defensive 
mystic force field.  After all if this force field can protect his 
backpack, than it should be able to cover a small animal.  However, a large 
familiar, like a horse, would be outside a force field, (not a force wall 
though,)  As such it would be more vulnerable.  If the familiar is to break 
contact with the wizard it must move far enough to forfeit the wizardís 
force field protection.  Mystic protection not withstanding, small animals 
are easier to kill that heroes, so the wizard may want to send his familiar 
away before the battle. 
 
Familiars also have a mind link with their wizards, allowing them to act as 
scouts, even if the wizard doesnít know a use familiarís senses clarisense 
spell. 
 
CONGREGATIONS 
I like the idea of a +1 per every 2x the number of Devout Believers, as 
well as taking the number of non-believers into account.  What I will use 
is a bonus or penalty based on the total number of devout believers and 
non-believers.  The total number of devout believer minus the number of 
non-believers give the congregation number.  This number results in a 
modifier based on the +/- 1 per 2x formula.  If the congregation number was 
9 then the cleric would get + 4. (+1 at 1, 2, 4, 8)  If the congregation 
number was -9 the cleric would have a -4 modifier (-1 at 1, 2, 4, 8).  A 
member of the congregation is defined as someone who participates, or 
pretends to participate in the ritual.  IE. During the course of the spell 
the congregation must respond with appropriate incantation words, like 
amen, or supercalafagalistick expealadoshus. 
 
This actual fits well with the cinematic version of fantasy.  The heroes 
infiltrate knock out some cultists, steal their robes, and infiltrate the 
ceremony.  When the cultists start chanting, the heroes mumble along.   As 
the high priest approaches the sacrifice (which always seems to be female, 
attractive, and emotionally involved with the heroes, if not one of them 
herself) he suddenly screams, ďThere are unbelievers amongst usĒ (He senses 
the reduced worship skill modifier).  The high priest then calls on his 
deity to reveal the unbelievers (casting a detect non-believer ritual).  
Scanning the crowd he quickly points at the heroes and yells ĎThere are the 
non-believers, get them!. 
 
Actually, the above example also fits well with the way I am planning to 
handle resurrection in my campaign.  So that is an added bonus. 
 
MULTIPLE CLERICS - Still not sure what to do. 
I am still considering some kind of multiple complementary skill rolls, but 
I do like QTSís suggestion of an AID spell cast by the junior clerics.  
This would seem to work well, except for a few questions.  The AID would be 
towards the focus clericís worship skill.  Enabling him or her to cast a 
more powerful spell successfully.  Since the maximum active cost of a spell 
in the focus clericís power pool is to be 3 times the worship skill, 
increasing the skill will allow a higher active point spell than normal to 
be used.  Since the actual value of the power pool is not changed, the 
higher active point spell will require more limitations to fit, such as 
extra time, side effect, OAF bones of a saint, etc.  The same AID could be 
used when the focus cleric is trying to learn the ritual. 
 
Questions and clarifications 
1) The AID should be towards the worship skill for a particular spell only. 
 What kind of a limitation is that worth? 
2) I do not what a bunch of clerics to be able to power up the focus cleric 
then leave.  That means the AID must have a fade rate high enough so that 
it doesnít lose all itís bonus if the ritual has extra time, but it also 
must only be available while the junior clerics are present.  How do I 
model this, after all the characters will have to learn and cast these 
rituals. 
3) If the spell has a side effect, then the junior clerics should be 
effected by it as well.  How do I model this? 
4) Since increases in worship skill roll are +1 for 2 points, a little AID 
can go a very long way.  Four junior clerics each cast 4d6 AID spells.  4d6 
have a statistical average of 14, so that would give our four juniors an 
average of 56 points aid or +28 to the worship skill roll.  The maximum 
would be 96 poits or +48 to the worship skill roll.  This example is with 
just 4d6 AID.  What if the junior clerics had 8d6 AID.  That would be an 
average of +56 with a max of +96.  That's a lot of plusses.  I am not sure 
the really powerfull rituals should be that easy to cast, and +96 to 
worship skill makes anything easy to cast. 
 
OTHER THOUGHTS 
Another thing I am considering is restricting healing magic only to 
religious rituals.  This would help distinguish between secular and 
religious magic.  I am not sure if I will do this.  Itís probably just a 
hold over from my many years of AD&D, and I am not sure if it is a good 
idea for Fantasy Hero. 
 
After I have resolved these issues it may be awhile before I ask another 
question.  I will be busy designing a reasonably sized list of magic 
specializations, a grimoire of sample spells, the various churches and some 
sample rituals.  If that goes without a hitch <LOL> then the next topic I 
am likely to run into trouble with is Package deals and Fantasy martial 
arts. 
 
Thanks again for the inspirations. 
 
Daniel Flacks   dflacks@ican.net 
 
Give me ambiguity or give me something else 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:49:19 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> Let us assume that the most that a person could lift by a measurable 
> amount, under ideal conditions, is 2.5 times the most _useful_ lift 
> you could get. Since the best ever was 6,270 lbs, this amount divided 
> by 2.5 gives a maximum lift of 2,508 lbs, or 1,140 kg. If this number 
> is compared to the Champion's lifting range, we get a 28 STR. Some 
> heroes, with GM permission, could be even stronger without being 
> superhuman, particularly in the superhero genres. Captain America is a 
> perfect example. 
 
	That's good!  Basically an argument here to allow up to 30 for 
"normal" humans in most stats.  Something I can live with, personally. 
The only Stat I'd have a problem with is BOD.  It's tough to convince me 
that any "normal" character will have more than _maybe_ 15. 
 
 
> If this were done, then it gives less granularity at heroic levels. It 
> would make a greater, more significant difference between average and 
> very good. It would also bring most of the published characters back 
> into a reasonable range. 
 
 
	Don't you mean _more_ granularity?  And I like how it adds more 
difference between "average" "good" and "excellent" but still allows for 
"superhuman". 
 
	Benchmarks somewhere around these should be adopted for 5th 
edition.  Great job. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 98 19:04:08  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Fantasy Magic - Multiple Clerics 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:44:03 -0500, dflacks wrote: 
 
>Thanks to qts and E. David Miller for responding to my last question.  I 
>still have some quesitons about multiple clerics though. 
> 
>FAMILIARS 
>I now know what I am going to do with familiars.  The familiar will have 
>it s own magic skill roll and the GM (meaning me) will roll the skill.  
>That roll will act as a complementary skill roll, giving the wizard a 
>positive modifier if it is made.  The modifier will be in effect so long as 
>the familiar is in physical contact with the wizard.  If the familiar stays 
>in contact with the mage thru the course of several spells, the modifier 
>would apply to all of them.  If the familiar breaks contact with the mage 
>the modifier instantly stops.  When, and if, contract is resumed a new 
>skill roll will be made. 
 
This puts familiars in a tricky situation when the fireballs start 
flying. I would suggest the AD&D method of being within a (short) range 
or having plenty of BODY. 
 
>The problem with using an AID is that I only what the familiar s bonus to 
>the wizards magic skill roll to apply when the wizard is in physical 
>contact with the familiar.  The bonus should continue to apply so long as 
>he is in physical contact with the familiar.  This continuous, abruptly 
>ending feature plays havoc with the fade rate portion of the AID power.  To 
>avoid a confusing kludge I am not going to use the AID power.  A Familiar 
>complementarily skill is easier for me to manage and price, after all the 
>player has to pay points for his or her character s familiar. 
 
Actually, all you need to do is purchase the Aid as below. 
 
1d6 Aid, Affects All Magic (+2), Continuous (+1), 0 End (+1/2), IPE 
(+1), Always On (-1/4), for a cost of 21 pts per 1d6. You could also 
add Only to boost Master's Spells (-1/4), which would prevent the PC 
'lending' his familiar to others. Note that this is purchased by the 
familiar, not the mage (but does increase the cost of the familiar to 
the mage). 
 
>Most familiars will be small.  Since their ability to boost magic skill 
>rolls is useful during combat, players may want them there.  A small 
>familiar, like a cat, is small enough to fit inside a wizard s defensive 
>mystic force field.  After all if this force field can protect his 
>backpack, than it should be able to cover a small animal.  However, a large 
>familiar, like a horse, would be outside a force field, (not a force wall 
>though,)  As such it would be more vulnerable.  If the familiar is to break 
>contact with the wizard it must move far enough to forfeit the wizard s 
>force field protection.  Mystic protection not withstanding, small animals 
>are easier to kill that heroes, so the wizard may want to send his familiar 
>away before the battle. 
 
Yes. Beware of wizards whose familiars are Triceratops! 
 
>Familiars also have a mind link with their wizards, allowing them to act as 
>scouts, even if the wizard doesn t know a use familiar s senses clarisense 
>spell. 
 
Standard Mind Link? 
 
>CONGREGATIONS 
>I like the idea of a +1 per every 2x the number of Devout Believers, as 
 
Wow! You're going to get hefty bonuses pretty quickly. I'd strongly 
suggest the +1 per 5x version. A normal congregation (25) will give you 
+2, the largest (a city, approx 5^5 will give +5). But this doesn't 
work for the 'secret cult', so make the number variable, depending upon 
the occasion and the deity. 
 
Remember that in a polytheistic society, each individual believed in 
many gods - it wasn't a case of 'I believe in X, not Y'. Even 
full-fledged priests sought blessings from other deities. In essence 
the priest is a priest of a *pantheon*, not a deity. 
 
A Roman priestess of Athena might have the following skills 
 
10 Pre 20 
 
11 Worship Athena ((9+Pre/5)+4) 17- 
 9 Worship Juno 16- 
 9 Worship Artemis 16- 
 7 Worship Jupiter 15- 
 1 Fam/w Worship other Roman Deity 8- 
 
Now, when she calls upon Athena (eg skill in battle) for something her 
Magic Skill is 'Worship Athena'; when she calls upon Juno (eg for safe 
delivery of a child), her Magic Skill is 'Worship Juno'. 
 
This mechanism allows you to roleplay the conflict between the gods - 
eg Jupiter and Juno did *not* get on, so Juno might be more difficult 
to call on if the priestess has paid more attention to Jupiter 
recently. Conversely, she might get a bonus so that Juno scores a point 
over Jupiter, 'You wouldn't help a faithful priestess? Tsk, tsk. Just 
as well I took care of it.' Also, a deity is less likely to answer a 
follower who's not followed their precepts - eg Artemis, a virgin 
goddess, would have scant time for a follower who'd just come from a 
Dionysian orgy. 
 
 
>well as taking the number of non-believers into account.  What I will use 
>is a bonus or penalty based on the total number of devout believers and 
>non-believers.  The total number of devout believer minus the number of 
>non-believers give the congregation number.  This number results in a 
>modifier based on the +/- 1 per 2x formula.  If the congregation number was 
>9 then the cleric would get + 4. (+1 at 1, 2, 4, 8)  If the congregation 
>number was -9 the cleric would have a -4 modifier (-1 at 1, 2, 4, 8).  A 
>member of the congregation is defined as someone who participates, or 
>pretends to participate in the ritual.  IE. During the course of the spell 
>the congregation must respond with appropriate incantation words, like 
>amen, or supercalafagalistick expealadoshus. 
 
Try 'Open Sesame' :} 
 
>This actual fits well with the cinematic version of fantasy.  The heroes 
>infiltrate knock out some cultists, steal their robes, and infiltrate the 
>ceremony.  When the cultists start chanting, the heroes mumble along.   As 
>the high priest approaches the sacrifice (which always seems to be female, 
>attractive, and emotionally involved with the heroes, if not one of them 
>herself) he suddenly screams,  There are unbelievers amongst us  (He senses 
>the reduced worship skill modifier).  The high priest then calls on his 
>deity to reveal the unbelievers (casting a detect non-believer ritual).  
>Scanning the crowd he quickly points at the heroes and yells  There are the 
>non-believers, get them!. 
 
Sounds good. 
 
>Actually, the above example also fits well with the way I am planning to 
>handle resurrection in my campaign.  So that is an added bonus. 
 
Do tell! 
 
>MULTIPLE CLERICS - Still not sure what to do. 
>I am still considering some kind of multiple complementary skill rolls, but 
>I do like QTS s suggestion of an AID spell cast by the junior clerics.  
>This would seem to work well, except for a few questions.  The AID would be 
>towards the focus cleric s worship skill.   
 
I was thinking of the Aiding the Spell, not the Skill. 
 
>Enabling him or her to cast a 
>more powerful spell successfully.  Since the maximum active cost of a spell 
>in the focus cleric s power pool is to be 3 times the worship skill, 
>increasing the skill will allow a higher active point spell than normal to 
>be used. 
 
Only if you're Aiding the Pool as well. 
 
 
> Since the actual value of the power pool is not changed, the 
>higher active point spell will require more limitations to fit, such as 
>extra time, side effect, OAF bones of a saint, etc.  The same AID could be 
>used when the focus cleric is trying to learn the ritual. 
 
The problem here is that you're allowing the priest to cast a spell 
more easily (increasing the Skill Roll), not allowing the priest to 
cast a more powerful spell (increasing the Active Points). It is the 
Active Points of the Spell that must fit in the Pool, not the Real 
Points. 
 
>Questions and clarifications 
>1) The AID should be towards the worship skill for a particular spell only. 
> What kind of a limitation is that worth? 
 
If you're Aiding the high priest's Worship skill, then you have no 
Limitation (and no Advantage), but that's ridiculously cheap. A 15 AP 
(2d6 Aid Ranged) spell will increase the Skill Roll by 3 pts. But see 
below. 
 
>2) I do not what a bunch of clerics to be able to power up the focus cleric 
>then leave.  That means the AID must have a fade rate high enough so that 
>it doesn t lose all it s bonus if the ritual has extra time, but it also 
>must only be available while the junior clerics are present.  How do I 
>model this, after all the characters will have to learn and cast these 
>rituals. 
 
Make it Continuous (+1) and Continuous Incantations (-1/2), with a 
normal fade rate, so that it stays while the juniors are there, but 
dissipates rapidly when they stop chanting. 
 
>3) If the spell has a side effect, then the junior clerics should be 
>effected by it as well.  How do I model this? 
 
Area Effect Feedback! 
 
>4) Since increases in worship skill roll are +1 for 2 points, a little AID 
>can go a very long way.  Four junior clerics each cast 4d6 AID spells.  4d6 
>have a statistical average of 14, so that would give our four juniors an 
>average of 56 points aid or +28 to the worship skill roll.  The maximum 
>would be 96 poits or +48 to the worship skill roll.  This example is with 
>just 4d6 AID.  What if the junior clerics had 8d6 AID.  That would be an 
>average of +56 with a max of +96.  That's a lot of plusses.  I am not sure 
>the really powerfull rituals should be that easy to cast, and +96 to 
>worship skill makes anything easy to cast. 
 
Not quite: there's the Maximum Aid. If the juniors are casting a bare 
4d6 Aid, then the maximum they can Aid is 24 AP. This is still +12 to 
the skill roll. 
 
But given that you're already giving a bonus to the skill roll for the 
number present, I think you may have the Skill Roll and Active points 
mixed up. As noted above, you're making the spell easier to cast, not 
more powerful. To make the spell more powerful, you need an Aid All 
Magic based upon below for each participant: 
 
1d6 Aid, +5 limit (10 base), All Magic (+2), Constant (+1), Ranged 
(+1/2) (45 Active), Concentrate 1/2 DCV throughout (-1/2), Incantations 
throughout (-1/2), OAF Unholy Symbol (-1), Only in Temple (-1), Only to 
Aid another Priest (-1/2), RSR (-1/2) = 9 Real. 
 
Here the more priests there are, the more quickly the high priest will 
be boosted, but  
 
Alternatively the temple can buy something like 
 
1d6 Transfer End to High Priest's Magic Effect, +35 to limit (50 Base), 
Constant (+1), All Magic Effect (+2), AOE: Temple (+1), 0 End (+1/2) 
(275 Active) OASF Blood Drenched Altar (-2), Only willing participants 
(-1/2), Independent (-2), Only from participants chanting correct 
responses throughout (-1/2), Only with Deity's Permission (-1/2), 
Concentrate 0 DCV to cast(-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), 
Only When Virgin Sacrifice Made/Only When 'The Stars are Right' (-1) 
yadda yadda 
 
This boosts the celebrant's VPP by 50 less the control cost. 
 
I've chosen End as the stat transferred to represent celebrants 
becoming unconscious from religious ecstacy when they start burning 
Stun as End 
 
>OTHER THOUGHTS 
>Another thing I am considering is restricting healing magic only to 
>religious rituals.  This would help distinguish between secular and 
>religious magic.  I am not sure if I will do this.  It s probably just a 
>hold over from my many years of AD&D, and I am not sure if it is a good 
>idea for Fantasy Hero. 
 
:} 
 
Do let us know how you get on. 
 
 
 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 11 Jan 98 11:32:00 -0800 
Subject: Re: Characteristics Too 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 b >  
 b >    I don't object to higher than maximum, but I do object to *a lot*  
 b > higher  
 b > than maximum unless there's a logical cause for it.  In my campaigns,  
 b > a  
 b > character with NCM may spend *no more* than 40 points total (after the  
 b > cost  
 b > doubling) in Characteristics above the max.  
 b > ---  
 b > Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  
 b > ---  
  
I can see that... by then they've 'bought off' the Disad anyway  
(spent an extra 20pts on characteristics...)  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 11 Jan 98 11:42:02 -0800 
Subject: Champions Survey 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>  
 b >    Please reply directly to me (without CC:ing to the list, unless  
 b > your software won't have it any other way) the following statistics for  
 b >  
  
It's worse than that - I'm going to have to post it to the list,  
forward to you, and then try to kill it before it goes out.... my  
appologies if this makes it onto hero-l.  
  
 b >    Average Damage Class of a beginning character's main attack:  
  
12  
  
 b >    Average Damage Class of "desperation" attacks (such as a Haymaker,  
 b > or any heavily-Limited Power):  
  
14  
  
 b >    Average beginning total PD/ED:  
  
25  
  
 b >    Average beginning DEX:  
  
20  
  
 b >    Average beginning SPD:  
  
4  
  
 b >    Average beginning EGO:  
  
15  
  
 b >    Average number of beginning Skills:  
  
10  
  
 b >    Starting base points:  
  
100  
  
 b >    Average beginning Disadvantage total:  
  
150  
  
b >    Average Damage Class of an NPC agent's main attack:  
  
(I assume by "agent" you mean a normal trained & equiped to  
fight supers...)  
  
9  
  
 b >    Average NPC agent total PD/ED:  
  
8  
  
 b >    Average NPC agent DEX:  
  
14  
  
 b >    Average NPC agent SPD:  
  
3  
  
 b >    Average NPC agent base points:  
  
50  
  
 b >    Average NPC agent Disadvantage total:  
  
50  
  
 b >    I'll return the results to the list, and forward them to Steven  
 b > Long in  
 b > case he's interested.  
 b > ---  
 b > Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  
 b >    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm  
 b > Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?)  
 b >    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm  
 b >  
 b >  
 b >  
 b > ---  
 b >  * Origin: Red October Gateway (1:143/241.0)  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 11 Jan 98 11:51:04 -0800 
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long) 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 F > From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com>  
 F >  
 F >  Though I *hate* the idea of increase STR costs, I can't agree.  12d  
 F >  of Normal damage is 12 DCs.  8d of AP normal damage is 12 DC... and  
 F >  if you ask me 8d of 0 END normal damge is 8DCs.. if it doesn't matter  
 F >  to they guy you're hitting, an advantage (or higher or lower cost)  
 F >  doesn't mean much in terms of DCs either... thus a 20d HA is darn-  
 F >  well 20 DCs!  >>  
 F >  
 F > The point here is that if Str were to increase twofold, one die of Str  
 F > damage  
 F > would cost 10 points.   Str would now be on the same point cost level  
 F > as  
 F > Drain, 10/die.  And you certainly wouldn't allow 12d6 of Drain.  The  
....  
 F > Yes, there are exceptions to how DC is calculated.  The exceptions  
 F > like 0 End *are* listed as exceptions under Damage Class... but the  ex  
 F > are for  *Advantages* only.  Otherwise, DC is determined by AP/5.  So 20  
  
I'm certain that is the 5th Ed were so foolish as to double STR cost -  
which I'm confident from the comments about it won't be the case - they'd  
have the forsight to add STR to that list of exception on calculating  
DCs.  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 11 Jan 98 11:59:06 -0800 
Subject: Character Problems 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 c > From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@sprynet.com>  
 c > Not to interupt the really facinating 3 Spd brick lines... ;>) but, I  
 c > was wondering if y'all could help me with this nagigng little problem  
 c > mine. I'm trying to make a hi-tech hero who has an AI in his battle  
 c > suit (a la Booster Gold), would it be a follower? It is (at this time  
 c > anyway)  
  
Computers, including AIs are bought as followers.  There are no rules  
as to how big an AI must be, or whether it can move around, so I assume  
you'd just define it as  being in the suit - obviously, no OIF limitation  
on the follower.  
  
 c > limited to his battle suit. It also can only control Life Support &  
 c > Force Field. I don't want any  "Yeah I'm unconscious but the suit if  
 c > fighting by it self...." hassles yet.  
 c >  
  
I was going to say make the LS & FF 'useable by others' so the AI  
could activate it for you, but that's not quite right....  a small  
advantage, simillar to Triggered for 'can be controlled by AI'  
should be OK.  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 11 Jan 98 12:27:08 -0800 
Subject: Re: Tying up the strengt 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 t > On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, Stephen McGinness wrote:  
 t >  
 t > > I think the points saved by martial artists having STR 20 instead of  
 t > a more  
 t > > realistic 14 or 15 are not an issue,  
 t >  
 t > I can't imagine how it could fail to be an issue.  
 t >  
  
Because you're talking about a character shaving a point or picking  
up an extra DC.... for 150pt or 250pt character it's just not that  
significant.  Unless you find saving points morally reprehensible -  
in which case you have to completely re-work the rules because there  
are *so many* ways of doing it - or are stickler for realism (and  
as long as Hero wants to simulate heroic & superheroic genres, it's  
going to be a little light on realism).  
  
 t > > >Because skill levels are effectively just characteristics with a  
 t > > >limitation "only for certain skills". A bonus to DEX-based skills,  
 t > > >example, isn't something you get _along with_ DEX; it _is_ DEX.  
 t > >  
  
Hardly, the points don't work out for one thing....  How do you get  
DEX, no figured characteristics, only to increase DCV to equal out to  
a 5pt DCV level?  
  
 t > > But it is also a bonus that comes along naturally because you are  
 t > dextrous.  
 t >  
 t > No, it isn't. It's the game mechanical representation of being  
 t > dextrous.  
 t > If being better at skills requiring co-ordination (including combat)  
 t > a bonus you get along with becoming more dextrous, then what does  
 t > being dextrous in and of itself mean?  
  
The only thing that DEX does, that isn't represented by another  
mechanic is the affect on combat order (lighting reflexes or whatever  
are explicitly limmitted DEX) everything else is covered by levels...  
  
So comparing the cost of what DEX gives you to the cost of DEX  
is just as valid as comparing the cost of what STR gives you  
to that of STR.  
  
Which is to say that's it's not valid at all.  
  
  
Cost breaks are inherent in the Hero System, and they balance  
out just fine.  The only drawback is that it is easy for a new  
player to inadvertently 'waste points' until they become  
more familliar with the rules.  
  
That's exactly the problem the Fuzion addressed.  Hero 5th  
(or 6th, or whatever) doesn't need to go through those same  
motions and make itself Fuzion with all the points multiplied  
by 5.  Hero & Fuzion are already going to be competing with  
eachother, no need to make them more simillar (in fact, I think  
every effort should be made to keep Fuzion simple, and Hero  
detailed, so that they are as differentiated as possible).  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58 * --------------------------------------------------  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 11 Jan 98 12:44:10 -0800 
Subject: Re: STR: Underpriced? 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
To: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>  
 c > >  
 c > > I agree... I think the characters that end up being able to get  
 c > > 'free strength' when thier STR just shouldn't be that high, have  
 c > > probably taken thier figured stats up too high...  I mean, if your  
 c > > thief isn't meant to be all that strong, why can he jump of a  
 c > > castle wall without breaking something (high PD: ~5)?  
 c >  
 c > Well, at first pass I'll mention that making this character was my  
 c > introduction to Champions. It was difficult to grasp at first what all  
.....  
 c > Assuming those are the values I wanted (they've become a part of my  
 c > character through years of play), I find it a little--frustrating, in  
 c > retrospect, that as some have put it "I paid points for a low STR."  
 c > Furthermore, I could have saved lives last session, including one of  
.....  
 c > I probably shouldn't, but I feel like I built a "bad" character, and  
 c > someone else had to pay the price.  
 c > ---  
  
  
Your story is typical... when I first designed a brick character I gave  
him a 40 STR and relatively low CON, and very high STN & REC... then I  
realized how much END he'd use in combat, and bought up his END...  
horribly inefficient.  
  
And that's what you created , a somewhat inefficient character.  It's one  
of the pitfalls of being new to Hero.  I can see how you've become attached  
to the character's odd stats, though.  I'm very fond of a 22 DEX character  
of mine... :)  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:31:49 EST 
Subject: Re: STR Cost (Re: Announ 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
In a message dated 98-01-09 17:28:06 EST, tbarrie@ibm.net writes:  
 
> On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Captain Spith wrote: 
>   
>  >    Hey!  here's where we can help 'balance' STR!  Simply require that 
>  > STR pay 1/5 END instead of 1/10!  This will create a limitation to pay 
>  > for all of STRs 'freebie' points, and will effectively raise STR's basic 
>  > cost by 25% to make it equal in END cost to other powers!  No, really, 
>  > this is GENIUS! 
>   
>  Hmm. So, under the current system, if I take an extra 10 STR, it reduces 
>  my characteristic cost by 1, and if I need to use that extra STR it'll 
>  cost me 1 END. With this change, if I take an extra 10 STR, it reduces my 
>  characteristic cost by 1, and if I need to use that extra STR it'll cost 
>  me 2 END. 
>   
>  To be honest, I don't see how that fixes much of anything. 
 
I don't either, which is why in my own house rules I ended up grossly 
expanding what counts as "using" STR:  
 
***begin house rules exerpt*** 
	3. END Costs for Strength (and Superleaping, Swimming and Running) 
	Using Strength costs 1 END per 5 pts of STR, just like in Heroic-level games. 
	Reduced END Cost for STR costs double, much as it does for Autofire attacks: 
Reducing the END Cost to 1 END per 10 STR is a +1/2 Advantage, and reducing it 
to Zero END is a +1 Advantage. 
	Characters are considered to be "using" their STR whenever they are in 
physical combat - tensed up and ready to fight if not actually dodging attacks 
- and not just when they make STR based attacks. Characters at full DCV are 
considered to be using their full STR, and characters at 1/2 DCV are 
considered to be using at least half their STR. 
	Leaping characters pay the END costs for the STR used when leaping, but do 
not pay any extra END for any extra inches of Superleaping they use. 
	Running and Swimming also count as "using" STR: The END costs of these powers 
are based on the character's STR scores (at 1 END per 5 STR) rather than on 
the points in Running or Swimming. Characters using less than their full 
movement spend proportionally less END unless they are also using their STR 
for other things. Characters can buy Reduced END on their Running and Swimming 
at the normal cost. This will reduce the END costs of Running or Swimming, but 
not of other uses of STR.  Buying Reduced END on STR itself will also reduce 
the END costs of Running and Swimming. 
***end house rules exerpt*** 
 
Erol K. Bayburt 
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow 
 
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 13:46:57 -0800 
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On Saturday, January 10, 1998 2:48 PM, Steven J. Owens wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
>     Well, if you want to build up your ability to withstand blunt 
>impact, try taking up boxing :-).  I'm more than half serious.  A lot 
>of the "knockout" effect from blunt impact is shock - and one of the 
>best ways to get used to being hit a lot is to go out and get hit a 
>lot. 
 
 
True. I had considered this. However, bag work is actually a good 
strength workout, so you'd still build up STR. Similarly, when solidly 
hit on the corner of the jaw, the thing that prevents a knockout is 
your neck muscles. 
 
>     For fatigue training, try taking up wrestling.  In scientific 
>studies (I'll have to bug my brother to find out exactly which) they 
>compared the endurance of numerous professional atheletes.  Marathon 
>runners were the highest, but second highest were wrestlers. 
> 
It works similarly with judo matwork. In ordinary competition, 
throwing an opponent to the ground can win the match. With matwork, 
you continue until one of you cannot move. 
 
Another thing that cannot be properly simulated in Champions. No 
matter how good my hold, you still get a roll every phase. Assuming 
anything like a fair competition, you will escape within well under a 
minute, most of the time. OTOH, some judo holds, once successfully 
executed, are all but inescapable. 
 
Filksinger 
 
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:00:38 -0800 
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On Saturday, January 10, 1998 9:03 PM, Rick Holding wrote: 
 
 
>Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote: 
><<Snipped>> 
>>      Something that I have seen done (albeit only with body) is to 
have the 
>>      stats of the actual baseline normal NPC be a couple points 
below 10. 
>>      Thus, every Shmoe off the street is defined as having a 5 or 
an 8 
>>      BODY, rather than a 10. Maybe this should be expanded to cover 
all of 
>>      the characteristics. This might have two advantages: I 
remember way back in the good old days, a normal human had all stats 
>of 8.  Heroes or trained normals had base stats of 10, a case of 
"being better 
>than normal".  This got dropped in the 4th edition so that normal 
humans had 
>base 10 stats. 
> 
That was one thing they said. Another rulebook said that the average 
normal was an 8 for all base stats, but that the average _adult_ 
between the ages of 17 and 50 was a 10. 
 
Filksinger 
 
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear. 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:22:39 -0800 
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On Sunday, January 11, 1998 7:01 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
 
>At 09:18 PM 1/10/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>> 
>>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
>> 
>>>> "Teleportation" is the power you are looking for. 
>> 
>>BG>    Teleportation, Usable Against Others, Indirect, 
Transdimensional, 
>>BG> Self Only? 
>> 
>>No, the duplicate has Teleportation.  For himself.  Nothing wrong 
with 
>>that. 
> 
>   I think the original intent was to have the Duplicate's pop in at 
range 
>on his *initial* appearance, not the following Phase. 
 
 
Exactly. Duplication linked to Teleportation. When Duplication is 
fired, the character also Teleports. SFX, the Duplicate arrives 
elsewhere. 
 
Filksinger 
 
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear. 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:27:06 -0800 
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On Sunday, January 11, 1998 7:27 AM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
> 
>BG>    I think the original intent was to have the Duplicate's pop in 
at 
>BG> range on his *initial* appearance, not the following Phase. 
> 
>Yeah, and the only power in the book that allows anything to "appear" 
on 
>the other side of an opaque, solid wall is Teleportation; the Ranged 
>advantage will not cut it as it requires line of sight.  Work with it 
a 
>bit. 
> 
 
 
The original poster specified that the other room had to be in line of 
sight. Pay attention.:) 
 
Filksinger 
 
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Characteristics Too High 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:30:55 -0800 
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On Sunday, January 11, 1998 8:32 AM, John Desmarais wrote: 
 
 
>On Sat, 10 Jan 1998 22:25:21 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
> 
>>On Friday, January 09, 1998 9:56 PM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>> 
>> 
<snip> 
>>> 
>>>   Question:  Is this 800 lbs a bench press, or a dead lift?  The 
>>things I 
>>>know about weightlifting could be counted on one's fingers, but one 
>>of them 
>>>happens to be that what one can bench press is typically about half 
>>what 
>>>one can dead lift.  If that 800 pound max is a bench press, then 
>>Cap's STR 
>>>would come to about 25, which is what I'd give him from observation 
>>and such. 
>> 
>> 
>>It isn't a benchpress, its an old lift that was used in the days 
>>before clean and jerk and snatch. The press, as best as I can tell, 
>>was simply getting it from the ground to your head. 
> 
>I've always viewed the weight you can lift based on STR to be a dead 
lift (lift from 
>ground to thigh level) - based on it being the maximum you could lift 
(and I can dead lift 
>weight that I haven't a chance of getting over my head). 
 
> 
 
The lifts in Hero are generally assumed to be dead lifts. However, the 
press used by Marvel comics to describe Cap's strength is not, it is 
an over the head lift. 
 
Filksinger 
 
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa  
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:43:27 -0800 
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On Sunday, January 11, 1998 8:48 AM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
 
> 
>> Let us assume that the most that a person could lift by a 
measurable 
>> amount, under ideal conditions, is 2.5 times the most _useful_ lift 
>> you could get. Since the best ever was 6,270 lbs, this amount 
divided 
>> by 2.5 gives a maximum lift of 2,508 lbs, or 1,140 kg. If this 
number 
>> is compared to the Champion's lifting range, we get a 28 STR. Some 
>> heroes, with GM permission, could be even stronger without being 
>> superhuman, particularly in the superhero genres. Captain America 
is a 
>> perfect example. 
> 
> That's good!  Basically an argument here to allow up to 30 for 
>"normal" humans in most stats.  Something I can live with, 
personally. 
>The only Stat I'd have a problem with is BOD.  It's tough to convince 
me 
>that any "normal" character will have more than _maybe_ 15. 
> 
 
 
That's my biggest problem with this, too. However, virtually no one 
buys NCM for BODY. It would be a theoretical problem rather than a 
real one. 
 
>> If this were done, then it gives less granularity at heroic levels. 
It 
>> would make a greater, more significant difference between average 
and 
>> very good. It would also bring most of the published characters 
back 
>> into a reasonable range. 
> 
> 
> Don't you mean _more_ granularity? 
 
Nope. 
 
Granularity is a term from geology that went into photography, and 
went on from there. If something is "grainy", it is course. The finer 
the divisions of something, the less grainy it is, and thus the less 
granularity you have. 
 
Therefore, the more divisions you can put into a given span or area, 
such as the surface of a rock, the picture on a photograph, or the 
span of human capability, the less granular it is. 
 
>And I like how it adds more 
>difference between "average" "good" and "excellent" but still allows 
for 
>"superhuman". 
> 
> Benchmarks somewhere around these should be adopted for 5th 
>edition.  Great job. 
> 
> 
Thank you. 
 
Bet you someone will hate it.:) 
 
Filksinger 
 
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:52:19 -0800 
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On Sunday, January 11, 1998 8:48 AM, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
 
 
>On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Filksinger wrote: 
> 
>> By this argument, no Figured Characteristics are valid. Are you 
>> arguing that STR is overpriced, or that Figured Characteristics 
>> shouldn't exist? 
> 
>I take it you haven't been reading the entire thread. (Which probably 
>makes you a tad more sensible than those of us who have...) I've 
mentioned 
>a couple of times that I'd like to see Figured Characteristics get 
the 
>axe; not only is it a good idea in its own right, but it's the 
cleanest 
>way of handling the STR/CON problem and it just generally makes it 
easier 
>to gauge the real cost of the Primary Characteristics. 
> 
 
My name is Filksinger, and I've read the entire thread. (SOB!) <Hi, 
Filksinger!> :) 
 
I just can't keep it straight, sometimes, who is in favor of what. 
 
That said, I think that eliminating the figured part of Figured 
Characteristics might be a good idea, but I don't want to see the 
whole system retconned this way. 
 
Filksinger 
 
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
Subject: Re: Character Problems 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 17:07:25 -0600 
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From: Opal <Opal@october.com> 
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org> 
Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 4:10 PM 
Subject: Character Problems 
 
 
> c > From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@sprynet.com> 
> c > Not to interupt the really facinating 3 Spd brick lines... ;>) but, I 
> c > was wondering if y'all could help me with this nagigng little problem 
> c > mine. I'm trying to make a hi-tech hero who has an AI in his battle 
> c > suit (a la Booster Gold), would it be a follower? It is (at this time 
> c > anyway) 
> 
>Computers, including AIs are bought as followers.  There are no rules 
>as to how big an AI must be, or whether it can move around, so I assume 
>you'd just define it as  being in the suit - obviously, no OIF limitation 
>on the follower. 
> 
> c > limited to his battle suit. It also can only control Life Support & 
> c > Force Field. I don't want any  "Yeah I'm unconscious but the suit if 
> c > fighting by it self...." hassles yet. 
> c > 
> 
>I was going to say make the LS & FF 'useable by others' so the AI 
>could activate it for you, but that's not quite right....  a small 
>advantage, simillar to Triggered for 'can be controlled by AI' 
>should be OK. 
 
 
To achieve this effect fully it will be necessary to give the AI not only 
its own defenses, LS & FF, but the same or similar amount "Usable Against 
Others."  So that the AI will be in control of the power.  In my campaign we 
allow beneficial powers to used "against" others with the useable "by" 
others advantage.  To do this with UAO is quite expensive but since 
followers are so cheap it is very reasonable and can even be *too* cheap. 
 
Another question this brings to my mind is that I though all followers were 
assumed to be human-sized unless Growth or Shrinking were bought. 
 
Alan 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 15:18:13 -0800 
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On Sunday, January 11, 1998 8:48 AM, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
 
 
>On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Filksinger wrote: 
> 
>> >> Ah. Well, if that type of trouble is the only one that causes 
you 
>> >> problems, then I would have to cut it down to all Frameworks and 
>> >> CON. 
> 
>[...] 
> 
>> I did _not_ say Frameworks when I meant Elemental Control. I said 
"all 
>> Frameworks", so obviously I was admitting there was more than one. 
>> Multipower can easily be a far greater point crock than EC, and VPP 
>> can be even worse. 
> 
>Can you get into situations with Multipower and VPP where reducing 
the 
>level of an ability results in a higher cost? (Or vice-versa) I 
haven't 
>been able to find any. 
 
 
No, but I can find places where you save more with multipower than you 
do with EC, enough more to make up the lack of utility (if any, as the 
GLD is not settled) and still save more points than an EC. 
 
>> >My point was that Champions specifies a certain amount of point 
break 
>> >for the drawback of not being able to use Powers simultaneously. 
>> >Inventing your own mechanic to do this, assigning a cost to it 
which 
>> >is sometimes higher than the cost of Multipower, and using this to 
>> >attempt to show that Multipower is underpriced is a pretty feeble 
>> >argument IMO. 
>> 
>> I'm afraid I don't understand. I gave the Limitation the 
ridiculously 
>> high figure of -1. 
> 
>That's not ridiculously high, it's ridiculously low. 
 
 
Assume that there were no "Multipower", or any other frameworks. Now, 
a player comes to you and says, "I have 8 attack powers. I want to 
limit them so that they cannot be fired at the same time. I think this 
is worth a -1 Limitation." Would you agree? 
 
I wouldn't. A -1/4 or maybe a -1/2, but definitely not a -1. 
 
>> You point out that it is closer to -9, yet you are arguing that 
this is 
>> _not_ a point crock? 
> 
>Correct. Do you have an argument for _why_ the "+0.1 Advantage on one 
>Power, -9 Limitation on the rest" set-up is under-costed? It seems 
fine to 
>me: if you want a character who can only have 60 pts worth of Power 
active 
>at a given time, it's going to cost you 60 pts plus some change, with 
the 
>amount of change proportional to the amount of versatility you have. 
>Perfectly reasonable. 
 
 
If I buy a Multipower with three ultra slots, I get a "Limitation" 
value on the powers of .6, greater than one half. If I buy a 
Multipower with six ultra slots, I get a value of 3.8. I'd give that 
Limitation a value of .5, at best. 
 
As I have rarely had a player who wanted to do multiple attacks in the 
same phase, and never had a character ask to have them separate rather 
than in a Multipower so that they could do so, I have to assume that 
a) it isn't worth much of a Limitation, and b) my players think that 
it is more useful to have a Multipower than to be able to fire two 
attacks at the same time. 
 
The only reason why Multipowers balance is that you can compare them 
to EC. Without EC, multipowers, even with their reduced utility, are 
even _more_ attractive. 
 
If EC is such a point crock, why is Multipower so much more popular? 
Most players I've talked to think a Multipower is superior, because it 
saves so many more points. 
 
You may not like the way that EC saves points, but it doesn't seem to 
be broken, based on the points saved. 
 
>> I don't understand this at all. The BBB gives STR a value of 1 STR 
per 
>> 5 pts., 
> 
>Assuming you mean 1 per 1. 
> 
>> and you say that STR costs too little. I point out that Multipower 
>> saves way to much, and you argue that I am wrong because the BBB 
says 
>> so? 
> 
>It's the nature of the argument that's different. If I said, "Look, 
here's 
>a new stat called 'FORCE': costs 10x, allows a character to lift 
2^(FRC/5) 
>* 25 kg and do (FRC/5)d6 in hand-to-hand... hey STR is a lot cheaper 
than 
>that; STR must be broken", I don't imagine many people would listen. 
>Similarly, inventing a new Limitation to duplicate Multipowers, 
giving it 
>a cost higher than Multipower, and using this to attempt to show that 
>Multipowers are under-priced doesn't strike me as much of an 
argument. 
 
 
I wasn't trying to show that a new Limitation didn't save as much as a 
Multipower. I was trying to show that a (to me) ridiculously high 
value for such a limitation still didn't equal Multipower-- that 
Multipower saved more points than the limits on it were worth. 
 
Both EC and Multipower save more points than the limitations they 
incur are worth. EC saves some points for no limitation, Multipower 
saves much more for a minor limitation. 
 
If this very small limitation is sufficient to balance multipower, 
then I can only assume that your argument against EC is that it gives 
_no_ limitation. Fine. Then we add the house rule concerning 
Adjustment powers and EC, and then it has a very small limitation and 
considerable point break. Multipower has a somewhat larger limitation 
and a much bigger point break. 
 
Am I correct in assuming that this would satisfy your objections, or 
am I missing something? 
 
Filksinger 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 18:38:12 EST 
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long) 
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In a message dated 98-01-11 11:10:02 EST, you write: 
 
> F> I've seen the MA DC costing 4, but where does it say that each 3pt HA 
>  F> equals one DC? 
>   
>  Look at the Damage Class table, the row that says "1DC" = 1 pip of killing 
>  damage or 1d6 normal damage.  HA costs 3 points per 1d6 of normal damage. 
>  1d6 of normal damage is 1DC.  Therefore HA costs 3 points per 1DC.  QED. 
 
Since HA is basically Str with a Limitation, I can buy this because it would 
mean that the AP/5 is still being satisfied.   
 
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From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 19:03:33 EST 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
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In a message dated 98-01-11 12:43:37 EST, you write: 
 
   
>  You know, every time the STR problem comes up, somebody (usually 2 or 3 
>  somebodies) comes out with the observation that players shouldn't take 
>  STR's higher than their concept mandates. So, I'm going to ask, as 
>  politely as I can, for somebody to explain how this relates even _vaguely_ 
>  to the issue at hand. Pretty please? 
 
Certainly, since you asked nicely.  There are many things in Champions (since 
I've played less than five games of FH, Champions is my reference point) that 
give players more bang for their buck.  Frameworks (yes, more than just ECs) 
some Primary Characteristics, and Limitations are the big ones, and they are 
the nature of the beast.   What it seems to me is that you're targeting Str as 
being unique.  What I was trying to show was that there are *many* places 
where Power Gamers, Minmaxers, etc can take advantage of the way the points 
sometimes fall in their favor.  It's been said before, but I'll say it again, 
I believe the cost of Str is the way it is to make Bricks able to build 
compatible characters compared with the other character types.  But in order 
to do so, it leaves room open for *other* characters to make use of the 
Brick's 'framework'.  That's why the GM's role is important.   
>   
>  > That said, then if the GM *is* doing his/her job and keeps Str from 
>  > being abused, there really shouldn't be a problem. 
>   
>  HOW? How does the GM only allowing some players access to the crock in any 
>  way deal with the basic problem that STR _shouldn't_ be a Disadvantage? 
 
The same way the GM doesn't allow what some people perceive as a crock 
(Frameworks) from being abused.   
   
>  > I have a question for you now...  Have you really seen it to be true 
>  > that Bricks (PC Bricks, who are built for concept) are *really* more 
>  > powerful in head to head combat with other character types? 
>   
>  They are, of course, but I don't see the point in discussing it. When 
>  mathematical evidence is available, anecdotal evidence is weak to the 
>  point of being completely irrelevant. 
>   
 
Your opinion, and you're welcome to it, but it doesn't make fact.  (neither 
does mine)  I would have really prefered your experience of 'real world 
examples' over number crunching, since, after all, that's where it matters the 
most.    
 
Take care, 
'Lynx 
 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:04:43 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Characteristics Too 
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At 11:32 AM 1/11/98 -0800, Opal wrote: 
> b >  
> b >    I don't object to higher than maximum, but I do object to *a lot*  
> b > higher  
> b > than maximum unless there's a logical cause for it.  In my campaigns,  
> b > a  
> b > character with NCM may spend *no more* than 40 points total (after the  
> b > cost  
> b > doubling) in Characteristics above the max.  
> b > ---  
> b > Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  
> b > ---  
>  
>I can see that... by then they've 'bought off' the Disad anyway  
>(spent an extra 20pts on characteristics...) 
 
   Precisely.  I give a few other limitations as well, such as being 
subject to heroic-level Pushing rules and not being allowed superhuman 
Powers without a Focus (with things like "non-powered Powers" and special 
martial arts abilities as an exception, but only if well justified within 
the character concept). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
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Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:06:41 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear. 
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At 11:21 AM 1/11/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
> 
>BG>    I think the original intent was to have the Duplicate's pop in at 
>BG> range on his *initial* appearance, not the following Phase. 
> 
>Yeah, and the only power in the book that allows anything to "appear" on 
>the other side of an opaque, solid wall is Teleportation; the Ranged 
>advantage will not cut it as it requires line of sight.  Work with it a 
>bit. 
 
   Well, I'd have to check to be 100% sure, but I think what was originally 
said was that the Duplicate could pop in behind another target, not behind 
a wall. 
   Even so, Indirect (plus Range) could bring the Duplicate in behind the 
wall. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:11:26 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear. 
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At 09:22 AM 1/11/98 -0400, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>On Sat, 10 Jan 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>> >>    Teleportation, Usable Against Others, Indirect, Transdimensional, 
Self 
>> >> Only? 
>[...] 
>>    To word it more precisely:  UAO, Only vs Alternate Selves in Other 
>> Universes and/or Timelines. 
> 
>To which I suppose the only real response is "HUH???". What on Earth are 
>all those Modifiers supposed to do, and why do you find them preferable to 
>simple Teleport, only when first appears? 
 
   The original question, IIRC, was how to make the Duplicate initially 
appear behind another target.  Giving the Teleportation to the Duplicate 
would enable the Duplicate to go behind the target *after* first appearing 
next to the original character.  The only way to allow the Duplicate to 
*initially* appear at range is to either buy Range on Duplication, or give 
the heavily-modified Teleportation (which is, at best, a kludge that would 
arguably be better applied to XDM) to the original character in addition to 
the Duplication. 
 
>> >>    No thank you.  Duplication at Range is much simpler and more direct. 
>> > 
>> >Does it make more sense for the cost of this ability to be related to the 
>> >point cost of the duplicate, or the distance at which the character can do 
>> >it? IMO it's definitely the latter. 
>>  
>>    Seems to me, about equally strongly, the former. 
> 
>Do you feel, then, that every character with Teleport should have to pay a 
>cost proportional to their total point cost? If not, how is this case any 
>different? 
 
   Uh... I honestly don't see whatever connection you're making between the 
cost of Duplication and that of Teleportation. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:13:59 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Champions Survey 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
>    On page S22 of Champions Fourth Edition, the results of a survey of 
> Champions players and GMs are printed, giving the stats of the average 
> Champions character. 
>    As an experiment, with the Fifth Edition of the Hero System coming 
> around, I'd like to try a similar survey for the list. 
>    Please reply directly to me (without CC:ing to the list, unless your 
> software won't have it any other way) the following statistics for your 
> campaign.  The first section is for beginning superhero characters, PC and 
> NPC alike; the second is for agent-level NPCs in a superhero world. 
>    I'll cover heroic-level campaigns a bit later. 
>  
>    Average Damage Class of a beginning character's main attack:	12 max for 250 points, 12 average for our 300 point immortals 
 
>    Average Damage Class of "desperation" attacks (such as a Haymaker, or 
> any heavily-Limited Power):	no real difference from above 
 
>    Average beginning total PD/ED:	ranges from 10 to 20 for most, no more than 30 
 
>    Average beginning DEX:	15 
 
>    Average beginning SPD:	3-4, very few have 5.  (I made my first 6 spd 3 months ago after 15  
years) 
 
>    Average beginning EGO:	12-13 
 
>    Average number of beginning Skills:	ranges between 20 to 40 points worth not counting combat skills 
 
>    Starting base points:	250 
 
>    Average beginning Disadvantage total:	150 
 
>    Average Damage Class of an NPC agent's main attack:	8 to 10 
 
>    Average NPC agent total PD/ED:	10 to 12 
 
>    Average NPC agent DEX:	14 
 
>    Average NPC agent SPD:	3 
 
>    Average NPC agent base points:	75 or 100 
 
>    Average NPC agent Disadvantage total:	generally don't bother 
 
 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:28:34 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Out of order messages 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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-- Filksinger wrote: 
>  
> Is anyone else receiving messages that are replies to messages they 
> don't get until later? I have recently received a spate of messages 
> that are arriving out of order. 
>  
> Filksinger	Its to do with the different time zones and date-time groups  
applied to your packets.  Nothing you can do about it unless everybody  
uses GMT. 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:32:43 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote: 
<<Snipped>> 
>      Something that I have seen done (albeit only with body) is to have the 
>      stats of the actual baseline normal NPC be a couple points below 10. 
>      Thus, every Shmoe off the street is defined as having a 5 or an 8 
>      BODY, rather than a 10. Maybe this should be expanded to cover all of 
>      the characteristics. This might have two advantages:	I remember way back in the good old days, a normal human had all stats  
of 8.  Heroes or trained normals had base stats of 10, a case of "being better  
than normal".  This got dropped in the 4th edition so that normal humans had  
base 10 stats. 
 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:39:07 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Str Cost (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
<<Snipped>>  <<But nothing wrong with what you said>> 
> q> It's CON that's more important here, to prevent you being stunned as 
> q> (opposed to being unconcious). The high Stun numbers which crop up mean 
> q> thatif you're going to go under, then go under you will. 
>  
> Stunned means your CV is pathetic... but you still have one.  Unconscious 
> means your CV is 0. 
 
	CV is halved if stunned 
 
> >> And it adds to your sword's damage. 
>  
> q> Again, minimally - 1 or 2 DC. 
>  
> And again, it still adds, and at 15-20 Strength it is more like 3-4DC.  The 
> point is not the the ammount Strength adds; the point is that it *does* 
> add, and that it adds much more than the character paid for. 
 
	I've forgotten if the start of this was referring to FH.  If it was,  
then strength minimums apply and you need that 18 strength to swing that 2  
handed sword.  If you are using a long sword (strength min 13) then 18-20  
stregnth will only give 1 DC. 
 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 98 09:32:45 GMT 
X-Sender: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk 
From: smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk (Stephen McGinness) 
Subject: Re: STR Cost 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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In a message dated 98-01-09 17:28:06 EST, tbarrie@ibm.net writes:  
 
> On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Captain Spith wrote: 
>   
>  >    Hey!  here's where we can help 'balance' STR!  Simply require that 
>  > STR pay 1/5 END instead of 1/10!  This will create a limitation to pay 
>  > for all of STRs 'freebie' points, and will effectively raise STR's basic 
>  > cost by 25% to make it equal in END cost to other powers!  No, really, 
>  > this is GENIUS! 
>   
>  Hmm. So, under the current system, if I take an extra 10 STR, it reduces 
>  my characteristic cost by 1, and if I need to use that extra STR it'll 
>  cost me 1 END. With this change, if I take an extra 10 STR, it reduces my 
>  characteristic cost by 1, and if I need to use that extra STR it'll cost 
>  me 2 END. 
>   
>  To be honest, I don't see how that fixes much of anything. 
 
Partially because you insist on emphasising buying 10 STR as reducing  
characteristic cost by 1. 
 
Under the current system you take an extra 10 STR which also brings you 2  
PD,2 REC, and 5 STUN. Sure this would cost 11 points normally but you don't  
reducce characteristic cost by one, you raise the characteristic costs by a  
minimum of 5, unless of course you had already gone out and bought all of  
that PD, REC, and STUN beforehand. 
 
What it means is that under certain circumstances STR is more expensive than  
it currently is to balance out the fact that _under certain circumstances_  
STR currently often comes at a reduced cost. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 06:07:08 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Champions Survey 1 more question 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 11 
 
On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Brian Wong wrote: 
 
> Hello; 
>  
> 	I think one more important question needs to be added to this survey: 
>  
>  
> Do you read comics? 
 
Yes. 
  
> If yes, how often and what flavor? 
 
As the titles come out (I usually make a weekly visit to the store). 
Titles include: Mage II, Blade of the Immortal, Gunsmith Cats... actually, 
I read just about all of Dark Horse's translated manga titles.  (I got 
really tired of most mainstream superhero titles several years ago. 
  
> If no why? 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 03:58:38 -0800 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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On Sunday, January 11, 1998 8:39 PM, Len Carpenter wrote: 
 
> 
>On January 10, 1998, Filksinger replied to my previous post: 
<snip> 
> 
>True, a 20 DEX doesn't seem so impressive with the official formula 
for 
>characteristic and skill rolls, and a 30 INT is needed just to have a 
base 
>15- with INT skills.  Change the formula to 8+(CHA/3), and a 20 stat 
gives 
>you a base 15- roll, a 30 stat an 18- roll.  I'd rather change the 
formula 
>than encourage characteristic inflation by thinking of 30 as the 
human best. 
>A push up to 30 STR when the stakes are high I can accept, but not a 
normal 
>30 STR where a character can safely and routinely lift and carry 
about 
>economy cars.  A normal human having any primary stat as high 30 
makes me 
>squirm, while a 30 BODY makes me gag. 
 
 
I don't have any objection to your suggestion for skill rolls, though 
it changes the value of skills and skill levels vs characteristics, 
making characteristics even more efficient than they are now. 
 
<snip> 
>> Let us assume that the most that a person could lift by a 
measurable 
>> amount, under ideal conditions, is 2.5 times the most _useful_ lift 
>> you could get. Since the best ever was 6,270 lbs, this amount 
divided 
>> by 2.5 gives a maximum lift of 2,508 lbs, or 1,140 kg. If this 
number 
>> is compared to the Champion's lifting range, we get a 28 STR. Some 
>> heroes, with GM permission, could be even stronger without being 
>> superhuman, particularly in the superhero genres. Captain America 
is a 
>> perfect example. 
> 
>These figures go too high for my taste, so I'll reconsider the STR 
study I 
>did in my post on revising the Haymaker, looking at the maximum 
potential 
>muscle energy of a character based on his STR.  If a 10 STR person 
can lift 
>and carry 100 kg on his shoulder, raising it to a height of nearly 2 
meters 
>for a tall person, that gives him a maximum potential energy (from 
PE=mgh) of 
>100*10*2 = 2,000 joules, with a bit more muscle energy to spare so he 
can 
>carry this load at half his normal movement rate and chew gum at the 
same 
>time.  If the character does nothing but lift, attempting no other 
effort 
>like walking with the load, his total potential lift energy rises to 
maybe 
>2,500 joules, perhaps more.  I don't know much about sports medicine, 
though; 
>I'm just guessing at what the lift energy gained might be by not 
using the 
>body's muscles to walk as well. 
 
 
Unfortunately, at a 20 STR, this would allow a person to lift to his 
shoulder and carry, while walking, 400 kg. No human on Earth can lift 
such a weight to his own shoulder. Even a world-class weightlifter 
cannot do that. The best that could be done is to lift it to waist 
height (roughly a meter), or to get into a fairly deep crouch, get 
your shoulders under it, and stand upright (also roughly a meter). 
This matches fairly well with the maximums that can be done with a 
squat or a deadlift. 
 
 
>If he can lift 100 kg by 2 meters yet still walk, then he can lift 
200 kg by 
>1 meter, 400 kg by 0.5 meters, 800 kg to 0.25 meters, and so on. 
(Yes, I 
>know this isn't accurate physiology, humans being far more messy and 
complex 
>than the ideal cranes and pulley systems used in high school physics 
>problems.  I'm simplifying things terribly, I admit it.  I'm also 
introducing 
>the notion of an infinite distance regression where a baby can lift 
the 
>Eiffel Tower micrometers off the ground, but that isn't a practical 
problem 
>worth troubled thoughts.)  If he chooses not to move with the load, 
focusing 
>all his strength on lifting, these figures rise by about one-quarter. 
 
 
Lets start with a 20 STR. This allows a weight equal to 400 kg to be 
lifted 1 meter, assuming a squat or a deadlift. This would allow a 
person who was lifting the weight by .25 meters, given your 
suggestion, of 1600 kg, or 3200 kg by .125 meters. This equates well 
with the present real world records of a squat or deadlift vs a 
minimal shoulder lift. 
 
So far, your analysis seems to be pretty good. 
 
>So a 15 STR character has a potential lift energy of about 5 kJ and a 
 20 STR 
>man 10 kJ, assuming he's doing nothing but lifting.  That 20 STR man, 
>remaining stationary, could safely lift 500 kg by 2 meters, 1000 kg 
by 1 
>meter, 2000 kg by 0.5 meters, and so forth. 
 
That should be 400 kg, not 500. Additionally, that should be 
 
>Judging by the photo in the 1985 
>edition of the Guinness Book of World Records where Paul Anderson 
lifts 6,270 
>lbs. (2,850 kg) 
 
HOLD IT! 2,850 kg is _not_ 6,270 lbs. Was this initial figure given in 
lbs or kg? If kg, we need to start over, as neither one of us has been 
doing this correctly. 
 
>using a back lift, he's raised and supported the tortured 
>barbell at not-quite waist height, no more than 1 meter, giving it a 
>potential energy of roughly 26-30 kJ.  Say he was inspired enough to 
push his 
>STR by +5 for this record.  If his normal STR is 23, his pushed STR 
of 28 
>gives him a potential energy of about 30 kJ.  He may still be able to 
lift 
>this much weight with a pushed 26-27 STR, so a normal STR of 22-23 
isn't 
>unreasonable for him. 
 
 
A back lift is with your back under the barbell. The picture you 
describe is a deadlift. The world record, today, for a deadlift is 406 
kg, or 892 lbs. 
 
There is no way the picture that you are looking at is him breaking 
this particular record. This record is a back lift, which consists of 
a barbell placed just above shoulder height. He places his shoulders 
under it and lifts, six inches, tops. He may have been breaking some 
other record that has now fallen by the wayside, but not the back 
lift. 
 
>As another example from Guinness, a Mrs. Max Hermann is reputed to 
have once 
>shouldered a 1,200-lb. cannon from the tailboard of a circus wagon. 
Call 
>that a potential energy of 550 kg * 10 m/s^2 * 1.5 m = 8.3 kJ. 
That's within 
>the safe potential of a 20 STR character, and an 18 STR character 
could 
>accomplish that with a modest push. 
> 
>Of course, with the margins for error inherent in these estimates, 
I'm not 
>proving much of anything--just trying to justify to myself a 
pre-existing 
>judgement of how high normal human STR should go. 
 
 
Fair enough. Using minor adjustments based upon types of lifts, and a 
few technical errors, this is not a bad analysis. 
 
My suggestion, however, is not impacted by your analysis. Using your 
analysis, lets go to my suggestion _merged_ with your suggestion. 
 
First, the present lift cannot be a "to the shoulder from the ground 
lift". No human on record has ever done anything close to what would 
be required for a 20 STR. If we assume that the best in the world a) 
do not push when lifting, and b) the present lift is a deadlift, the 
most any human on record has done is lift from the ground to his 
waist, roughly, about the same amount as the lift given for a 20 STR, 
or placed that weight at just below shoulder height, lifted it, did a 
deep squat, and stood back up again. 
 
However, while it cannot be that _high_ (all the way onto the 
shoulder) a lift, it could be lower. You suggested that, if a person 
could lift an object 2 meters normally, that he could lift twice as 
much half as high. Let us see what happens when we declare that the 
STR chart's lifting column is telling us how much a given STR can lift 
1/4th meter, or about 10 inches. 
 
If that is what the lifting weight in the STR chart refers to, then 
the strongest men in the world could, by your analysis, lift as much 
as a 30 STR, using a back lift, and only lifting about ten inches. 
 
I realize that you consider this too high for human, though it isn't 
as bad as it looks. If we view that chart as being how much a man 
could lift ten inches with his shoulders, then this is something that 
normal world power lifters can do. 
 
Now comes your suggestion for pushing STR. The power lifters do not 
have a 30 STR. They have a 25 STR. When really trying, they push their 
STR to 30, in order to get those records. This explains why no 
weightlifter, desparate to win, has suddenly lifted twice what the 
others were lifting. This explains why such extreme lifts are so very 
exhausting. And using your idea, this allows for a 25 STR to be the 
highest human STR in the real world and a 30 STR to be allowed for 
normal (but very exceptional) humans in the super hero world. Lastly, 
using your idea, it also explains why such lifts sometimes injure 
people severely. 
 
 
>> If this were done, then it gives less granularity at heroic levels. 
It 
>> would make a greater, more significant difference between average 
and 
>> very good. It would also bring most of the published characters 
back 
>> into a reasonable range. 
> 
>> Filksinger 
> 
> 
>Len Carpenter 
>redlion@early.com 
> 
 
Filksinger 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions Survey 1 more question 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 05:52:16 -0800 (PST) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
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>  
> << Given that the survey is for gaming in the Superhero genre, it helps to 
> know 
> how many people read the source material, and what styles they go for. >> 
>  
>   The survey is for the 5th Ed. Hero System, not just for Champions. It is for 
> any genre. Just FYI. 
>  
>   Mark @ GRG 
>  
	Actually that's not true. 
The survey as posted so far was set for questions on the super hero genre. 
 
It specifically asked for super hero power levels, and agent power levels. 
 
I suppose a later survey might ask for other power levels. 
 
Perhaps another survey question is then what genre's do you use Hero for? 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:12:05 -0600 (CST) 
Subject: Champions Survey (long) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
I did something like this several years back.  Here were my results. 
(I have more sympathy now for whoever it was that asked that responses 
be mailed privately.) 
 
Curt Hicks 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Well here are the survey results, only about 6 months late. 
Much thanks to all who responded. 
  
What point levels can starting characters begin at ? 
- 25 responses, average 280, high 450, low 235 
  
What is the average DEX and SPD  ? 
- DEX 26 responses, average 24, high 29, low 15 
- SPD 26 responses, average 5.5, high 6, low 3 
  
What's the average EGO ? 
- 20 responses, average 12.8, high 18, low 10 
  
How common are mentalists ? 
-"very rare to uncommon"  Highest mentioned was 1 per team. 
  
What is the maximum, if any, DEX and SPD ? 
Does this vary for any types of 
characters, e.g. speedsters or martial artists ? 
- DEX 14 responses, average 26.4, high 38, low 20 
- SPEED 15 responses, average 6.5, high 8, low 5 
- Speedsters  3 responses for speed, average 7.7, high 9, low 7 
- Martial Artists - 3 responses, all 30 DEX and 6 speed 
- One response used Normal CHA maxima, but changed the max to 
  speed to 6, not 4 and based speed on 2 + DEX/10 
- One response indicated that for characters with STR > 40, 
  the MAX speed was 5 
  
What's the average PD and ED including force fields and armor ? 
- PD 26 responses, average 23, high 35, low 12.5 
- ED 26 responses, average 22, high 35, low 12.5 
  
Average resistant PD and ED ? 
- PD 22 responses, average 15, high 23, low 5 
- ED 22 responses average 14.6, high 23, low 5 
  
What's the maximum PD and ED ? Does this vary for types of character ? 
- No distinction between PD and ED reported 
- 6 responses - No maximums 
- 17 other responses - average 31, high 40, low 25 
- This didn't seem to vary by character type 
- One response stated a requirement that a character be stunned 
  by an attack doing 60 Stun 
- Another had a maximum SUM of PD & ED = 50 
  
Maximum resistant PD and ED ? 
- No distinction reported 
- 2 responses - No maximums 
- 10 other responses - average 27, high 30, low 20 
  
What's the average STR for 'Brick-type' characters ? 
- 20 responses, average 55, high 75, low 40 
  
For martial artists ? 
- 18 responses, average 22, high 35, low 15 
  
What's the maximum STR allowed ? 
- 15 responses, average 70, high 100, low 50 
  
What's the active point range for attacks ? 
- 6 answered without a range - average 60, high 75, low 50 
- 14 other responses LOW END- average 50, high 75, low 30 
 -                  HIGH END- average 65, high 100, low 50 
- greatest range was from 30 to 60, 
  there was another couple of 25 point ranges 
  
Is there a limit for any type of attack ? 
- 2 responses said none 
- 8 other responses, average 72, high "21 damage classes" low 50 
- One response limits by damage classes, not Points 
- One response states the Damage Class is linked to the CV, 
  presumably inversely proportional 
  
How many regular players do you have ? 
- 25 responses, average 5.5., high 12, low 3 
  
How many regular Characters ? 
- 23 responses, average 7, high 18, low 3 
  
If any, how many NPC heroes are on the team ? 
- 9 responses said 0 
- 9 other responses, average 1.8, high 3, low 1 
  
What percentage original NPC's, 'Champions products' NPC's, comic book 
company NPC's or villains ? 
- 12 responses, average 75% original, high 99% original, low 20% original 
  
What percentage original scenarios vs. 'modules' ? 
- 23 responses, average 88% original, high 100% original, low 20% original 
  
What's the average experience given out per episode ? 
- 24 responses, average 2.7, high 5, low 1.5 
  
How long has your game been running ? 
- 21 responses, average 28.6 Months, high 8 Years, low 2 weeks 
  
How much experience has the top character received ? 
- 20 responses, average 121, high 360, low 4 
 I realize this is pretty much meaningless unless factored by 
 number of sessions. The low is for the two weeks game, 
 and the 360 is for a 7 year old game. 
  
How often, if at all, do the player characters 'lose' ? 
- 9 responses I felt I could put percentages on: 
  average 19% losses, high 33%, low .5% 
- other responses ranged from "Mostly" to "Not Very Often" 
  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 07:29:45 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions Survey 1 more question 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:38 PM 1/11/98 -0800, Brian Wong wrote: 
>Hello; 
> 
> I think one more important question needs to be added to this survey: 
> 
> 
>Do you read comics? 
> 
>If yes, how often and what flavor? 
> 
>If no why? 
> 
> 
>Given that the survey is for gaming in the Superhero genre, it helps to know 
>how many people read the source material, and what styles they go for. 
 
   That's for a different survey.   :-] 
   Plus, there are other sources for superhero input.  I'm a boob tube boob 
more than a comix freak, myself. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 07:30:53 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions Survey 1 more question 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:07 AM 1/12/98 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< Given that the survey is for gaming in the Superhero genre, it helps to 
>know 
>how many people read the source material, and what styles they go for. >> 
> 
>  The survey is for the 5th Ed. Hero System, not just for Champions. It is 
for 
>any genre. Just FYI. 
 
   The survey as I was taking it was for Champions.  I'll be turning to 
heroic-level games a little later. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 07:37:53 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:22 PM 1/11/98 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>On Sunday, January 11, 1998 7:01 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
> 
>>At 09:18 PM 1/10/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>>> 
>>>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
>>> 
>>>>> "Teleportation" is the power you are looking for. 
>>> 
>>>BG>    Teleportation, Usable Against Others, Indirect, 
>Transdimensional, 
>>>BG> Self Only? 
>>> 
>>>No, the duplicate has Teleportation.  For himself.  Nothing wrong 
>with 
>>>that. 
>> 
>>   I think the original intent was to have the Duplicate's pop in at 
>range 
>>on his *initial* appearance, not the following Phase. 
> 
>Exactly. Duplication linked to Teleportation. When Duplication is 
>fired, the character also Teleports. SFX, the Duplicate arrives 
>elsewhere. 
 
   But duplicate can't have Duplication Linked to Teleportation (or the 
other way around, which is what I think you meant).  The original character 
has Duplication, while under this proposal the duplicate has Teleportation. 
 AFAIK a Hero entity can't have a Power that's Linked to another entity's. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:32:26 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Damage Benchmarks 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Marc Seebass writes: 
> I would like to see something that listed benchmarks for Damage in terms of 
> volts or amps, pounds TNT,  and so on. It could give a better idea of how 
> to translate things, and also let the characters know just how powerfull 
> that 12d6 EB is. 
>  
Well, there isn't a strict corrolation between 'damage' and energy.  For 
physical attacks, figure E = 10*2^dice for normal attacks; treat killing 
attacks as 2 dice larger.  For explosions, E will be _much_ higher; treat as 
8-10 dice larger. 
For energy attacks, this becomes harder to measure, since we have no way of 
comparing the listed damage for attacks with any real-world equivalents; in 
addition, thermal effects really aren't the most efficient way of killing 
someone.  In general, treat as 0-10 dice larger, depending what you're using 
(basically, if it kills people with simple heat, add 10 dice; other methods 
will be more efficient). 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:57:41 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On January 12, 1998, 7:26 AM, Filksinger replied: 
 
(Material snipped) 
 
FS>>> Let us assume that the most that a person could lift by a measurable 
>>> amount, under ideal conditions, is 2.5 times the most _useful_ lift 
>>> you could get. Since the best ever was 6,270 lbs, this amount divided 
>>> by 2.5 gives a maximum lift of 2,508 lbs, or 1,140 kg. If this number 
>>> is compared to the Champion's lifting range, we get a 28 STR. Some 
>>> heroes, with GM permission, could be even stronger without being 
>>> superhuman, particularly in the superhero genres. Captain America is a 
FS>>> perfect example. 
 
 
LC>> These figures go too high for my taste, so I'll reconsider the STR 
>> study I did in my post on revising the Haymaker, looking at the maximum 
>> potential muscle energy of a character based on his STR.  If a 10 STR person 
>> can lift and carry 100 kg on his shoulder, raising it to a height of nearly 
2 
>> meters for a tall person, that gives him a maximum potential energy (from 
>> PE=mgh) of 100*10*2 = 2,000 joules, with a bit more muscle energy to spare 
so 
>> he can carry this load at half his normal movement rate and chew gum at the 
>> same time.  If the character does nothing but lift, attempting no other 
>> effort like walking with the load, his total potential lift energy rises to 
>> maybe 2,500 joules, perhaps more.  I don't know much about sports medicine, 
>> though; I'm just guessing at what the lift energy gained might be by not 
LC>> using the body's muscles to walk as well. 
 
 
FS> Unfortunately, at a 20 STR, this would allow a person to lift to his 
> shoulder and carry, while walking, 400 kg. No human on Earth can lift 
> such a weight to his own shoulder. Even a world-class weightlifter 
> cannot do that. The best that could be done is to lift it to waist 
> height (roughly a meter), or to get into a fairly deep crouch, get 
> your shoulders under it, and stand upright (also roughly a meter). 
> This matches fairly well with the maximums that can be done with a 
FS> squat or a deadlift. 
 
 
If so, then no 10 STR fireman can lift to his shoulder and carry, while walking 
awkwardly, a 100-kg fire victim.  This is what I've assumed a 10 STR allows, 
provided that he does get his shoulder under the load and straightens up as 
best as he can.  This is not a true 2-meter lift, of course.  But if he can 
pull a limp body from the ground, place it over his shoulder, and walk, and if 
the man is quite tall but not so tall that he has one level of Growth, a 
potential muscle energy of 1,500-2,000 joules for this lift isn't too bad an 
estimate.  I err on the high side as the heights of people of normal STR can 
vary so widely. 
 
Another take: A 10 STR man could shoulder a 70 or 80 kg person, while a fireman 
would have to have a 13 STR to shoulder-carry a 100 kg person.  That places a 
10 STR at more like a 1,500-joule potential energy.  In your view, how heavy a 
person could that 10 STR fireman be able to shoulder-carry a short distance?  
 
 
LC>> If he can lift 100 kg by 2 meters yet still walk, then he can lift 200 kg 
>> by 1 meter, 400 kg by 0.5 meters, 800 kg to 0.25 meters, and so on. 
>> (Yes, I know this isn't accurate physiology, humans being far more messy 
>> and complex than the ideal cranes and pulley systems used in high school 
>> physics problems.  I'm simplifying things terribly, I admit it.  I'm also 
>> introducing the notion of an infinite distance regression where a baby can 
>> lift the Eiffel Tower micrometers off the ground, but that isn't a 
>> practical problem worth troubled thoughts.)  If he chooses not to move 
>> with the load, focusing all his strength on lifting, these figures rise by 
LC>> about one-quarter. 
 
 
FS> Lets start with a 20 STR. This allows a weight equal to 400 kg to be 
> lifted 1 meter, assuming a squat or a deadlift. This would allow a 
> person who was lifting the weight by .25 meters, given your 
> suggestion, of 1600 kg, or 3200 kg by .125 meters. This equates well 
> with the present real world records of a squat or deadlift vs a 
> minimal shoulder lift. 
> 
FS> So far, your analysis seems to be pretty good. 
 
 
LC>> So a 15 STR character has a potential lift energy of about 5 kJ and a 
>> 20 STR man 10 kJ, assuming he's doing nothing but lifting.  That 
>> 20 STR man, remaining stationary, could safely lift 500 kg by 2 meters, 
LC>> 1000 kg by 1 meter, 2000 kg by 0.5 meters, and so forth. 
 
 
FS> That should be 400 kg, not 500. Additionally, that should be 
 
 
Here, I was making the distinction between a shoulder-carry while walking and a 
stationary lift that permits a somewhat greater load to be lifted, crudely 
approximating.  We could shave the 15 STR energy down to 3.5-4 kJ and 20 STR 
down to 7-8 kJ, instead, which are likely more realistic figures. 
 
 
LC>> Judging by the photo in the 1985 edition of the Guinness Book of World  
LC>> Records where Paul Anderson lifts 6,270 lbs. (2,850 kg) 
 
 
FS> HOLD IT! 2,850 kg is _not_ 6,270 lbs. Was this initial figure given in 
> lbs or kg? If kg, we need to start over, as neither one of us has been 
FS> doing this correctly. 
 
 
Yes, there are 2.205 lbs. per kg in Earth's gravity well.  6,270 lbs. divided 
by 2.205 is 2,843.5 kg. 
 
 
LC>> using a back lift, he's raised and supported the tortured 
>> barbell at not-quite waist height, no more than 1 meter, giving it a 
>> potential energy of roughly 26-30 kJ.  Say he was inspired enough to 
>> push his STR by +5 for this record.  If his normal STR is 23, his 
>> pushed STR of 28 gives him a potential energy of about 30 kJ.  He 
>> may still be able to lift this much weight with a pushed 26-27 STR, 
LC>> so a normal STR of 22-23 isn't unreasonable for him. 
 
 
FS> A back lift is with your back under the barbell. The picture you 
> describe is a deadlift. The world record, today, for a deadlift is 406 
> kg, or 892 lbs. 
> 
> There is no way the picture that you are looking at is him breaking 
> this particular record. This record is a back lift, which consists of 
> a barbell placed just above shoulder height. He places his shoulders 
> under it and lifts, six inches, tops. He may have been breaking some 
> other record that has now fallen by the wayside, but not the back 
FS> lift. 
 
 
You're right; I wrote that part in haste.  The photo depicts not his record 
setting back-lift, but a sample deadlift of an unspecified barbell weight. 
 
I'll revise.  Now if he did raise that 6,270-lb. weight a mere six inches, then 
he changed the energy state of that weight by 2,850 kg * 10 m/s^2 * .15 m = 4.3 
kJ.  That's on a par with changing the energy state of a 400 kg mass by raising 
it a little over 1 meter.  So a 20 STR is good enough.  That certainly appears 
way off, if a 15 STR man can Push his STR by +5 and match that amazing feat.   
 
Now we're into the messy science of equating the mechanical act of 
weightlifting with physiological work, where a person's muscles must strain 
just to support a given mass even if it isn't displaced by a single millimeter. 
 I have no numbers to throw out regarding the potential or peak power output of 
the human body.  So I just guestimated that physiological work can be crudely 
approximated by measuring gravitational potential energy from the floor--which 
is where the weight will crash to when fatigue sets in and the person can no 
longer maintain the physiological process of converting chemical energy into 
mechanical energy to generate the force that supports the weight.  This seemed 
more reasonable than going by a change in potential energy when a weight is 
raised by but a few inches. 
 
And that's another reason why I didn't want to consider Anderson's 
record-setting lift as a guideline for STR figures in the first place--so many 
factors involved, and so much about human physiology I know nothing about.  I'd 
rather stick with the plain-old press above the head and a simple 
estimation--50 kg for 10 STR, up to 400 kg for Captain America's 25 STR.  
Anything better than that for a non-superhuman is a Push. 
 
 
LC>> As another example from Guinness, a Mrs. Max Hermann is reputed to 
>> have once shouldered a 1,200-lb. cannon from the tailboard of a 
>> circus wagon.  Call that a potential energy of  
>> 550 kg * 10 m/s^2 * 1.5 m = 8.3 kJ.  That's within the safe 
>> potential of a 20 STR character, and an 18 STR character 
>> could accomplish that with a modest push. 
>> 
>> Of course, with the margins for error inherent in these estimates, 
>> I'm not proving much of anything--just trying to justify to myself a 
LC>> pre-existing judgement of how high normal human STR should go. 
 
 
FS> Fair enough. Using minor adjustments based upon types of lifts, and a 
> few technical errors, this is not a bad analysis. 
> 
> My suggestion, however, is not impacted by your analysis. Using your 
> analysis, lets go to my suggestion _merged_ with your suggestion. 
> 
> First, the present lift cannot be a "to the shoulder from the ground 
> lift". No human on record has ever done anything close to what would 
> be required for a 20 STR. If we assume that the best in the world a) 
> do not push when lifting, and b) the present lift is a deadlift, the 
> most any human on record has done is lift from the ground to his 
> waist, roughly, about the same amount as the lift given for a 20 STR, 
> or placed that weight at just below shoulder height, lifted it, did a 
FS> deep squat, and stood back up again. 
 
 
I'll buy that.  
 
 
FS> However, while it cannot be that _high_ (all the way onto the 
> shoulder) a lift, it could be lower. You suggested that, if a person 
> could lift an object 2 meters normally, that he could lift twice as 
> much half as high. Let us see what happens when we declare that the 
> STR chart's lifting column is telling us how much a given STR can lift 
> 1/4th meter, or about 10 inches. 
> 
> If that is what the lifting weight in the STR chart refers to, then 
> the strongest men in the world could, by your analysis, lift as much 
> as a 30 STR, using a back lift, and only lifting about ten inches. 
> 
> I realize that you consider this too high for human, though it isn't 
> as bad as it looks. If we view that chart as being how much a man 
> could lift ten inches with his shoulders, then this is something that 
> normal world power lifters can do. 
> 
> Now comes your suggestion for pushing STR. The power lifters do not 
> have a 30 STR. They have a 25 STR. When really trying, they push their 
> STR to 30, in order to get those records. This explains why no 
> weightlifter, desparate to win, has suddenly lifted twice what the 
> others were lifting. This explains why such extreme lifts are so very 
> exhausting. And using your idea, this allows for a 25 STR to be the 
> highest human STR in the real world and a 30 STR to be allowed for 
> normal (but very exceptional) humans in the super hero world. Lastly, 
> using your idea, it also explains why such lifts sometimes injure 
FS> people severely. 
 
 
Makes sense.  I certainly can buy Anderson as having a 23 STR and having pushed 
it to 28 when he back-lifted that mighty load.  I like setting Cap at a 25 STR 
and treating Anderson as a little under that--Anderson's a big guy, but not as 
impressive looking as Cap. 
 
Let me through out another suggestion.  Some folks on the list who figure they 
have about a 10 STR can do some testing of their strength at a gym--press, 
benchpress, deadlift, shoulder-lift, back-lift, and so on.  They posts their 
results, and we average them.  Then we can extrapolate the numbers upward to 
two-, four-, eight-, and sixteen-times a healthy human's lift in each category. 
 
Sounds like a whole lotta fun, don't it? 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:38:38 -0800 
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger) 
Subject: TK question... 
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
     I just started playing a character with TK, and the GM and another 
     player (both of who have been playing Champions for *ever*) informed 
     me of an aspect of the power that I wasn't aware of. I went along  
     with the ruling for the game, but I wanted to run it by the list. 
      
     They stated that, without something to brace against, it is impossible  
     to break free of telekinesis. Thus, assuming that I had enough  
     strength to lift someone a few feet off the ground, I could  
     conceivably hold them there forever, no matter how strong they were.  
     The went on to mention that this has happened fairly often in the  
     comics, using Juggernaut as an example. He has been shown getting  
     picked up by Jean Grey's TK, and not being able to break out.  
      
     So, what about this? Is this the way it should be played, or a house  
     rule, or an earlier version of TK? (Note: This radically improves the  
     power, IMHO, perhaps unbalancing it completely.) 
      
     Richard 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: TK question... 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 12 Jan 1998 13:58:57 -0500 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "RGS" == Richard G Schwerdtfeger <RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com> 
>>>>> writes: 
 
RGS>      They stated that, without something to brace against, it is 
RGS>      impossible to break free of telekinesis. 
 
No Champions book has ever had this restriction.  In fact, it violates a 
fundamental premise of the game: there is always a defense. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:04:15 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: TK question... 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Richard G Schwerdtfeger writes: 
>      I just started playing a character with TK, and the GM and another 
>      player (both of who have been playing Champions for *ever*) informed 
>      me of an aspect of the power that I wasn't aware of. I went along  
>      with the ruling for the game, but I wanted to run it by the list. 
>       
>      They stated that, without something to brace against, it is impossible 
>       to break free of telekinesis. <zappp> 
>      So, what about this? Is this the way it should be played, or a house  
>      rule, or an earlier version of TK? (Note: This radically improves the  
>      power, IMHO, perhaps unbalancing it completely.) 
 
This is a house rule.  A TK grab is a grab, and can be broken out of like any 
other grab.  Note that arguably there _should_ be an effect like what they 
describe, it does sometimes fit the genre, but TK doesn't do this, and it would 
be a fairly large advantage on TK to let it work this way.  Also, since 
grabbing someone with TK ends your action, they generally will have a phase to 
break free. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: empulse@usa.net (Unverified) 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:08:58 -0800 
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com> 
Subject: Re: TK question... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:58 PM 1/12/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "RGS" == Richard G Schwerdtfeger <RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com> 
>>>>>> writes: 
> 
>RGS>      They stated that, without something to brace against, it is 
>RGS>      impossible to break free of telekinesis. 
> 
>No Champions book has ever had this restriction.  In fact, it violates a 
>fundamental premise of the game: there is always a defense. 
> 
 
Yeah, that's a house rule that you need something to push against to resist 
TK. The Hero System rules give a STR vs STR roll to break free, there are 
no special requirements. 
 
Most GMs I've played with view it like this, TK is like a hand (claw, fist, 
whatever) you apply your strength against it's, if you break free, you drop 
to the ground and can continue on. 
 
-Nic 
 
                +-------------------------------------------------+ 
                |               naneiden@iswest.com               | 
                |         http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/        | 
                |     "Kame...hame..ha!" - Goku, Gohan & Goten    | 
                +-------------------------------------------------+ 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:13:39 -0800 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: TK question... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:38 AM 1/12/98 -0800, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote: 
>     I just started playing a character with TK, and the GM and another 
>     player (both of who have been playing Champions for *ever*) informed 
>     me of an aspect of the power that I wasn't aware of. I went along  
>     with the ruling for the game, but I wanted to run it by the list. 
>      
>     They stated that, without something to brace against, it is impossible  
>     to break free of telekinesis. Thus, assuming that I had enough  
>     strength to lift someone a few feet off the ground, I could  
>     conceivably hold them there forever, no matter how strong they were.  
>     The went on to mention that this has happened fairly often in the  
>     comics, using Juggernaut as an example. He has been shown getting  
>     picked up by Jean Grey's TK, and not being able to break out.  
>      
>     So, what about this? Is this the way it should be played, or a house  
>     rule, or an earlier version of TK? (Note: This radically improves the  
>     power, IMHO, perhaps unbalancing it completely.) 
>     
 
Hmmm... 
 
There's a certain logic to it. Most TK FX are intangible...magnetic fields, 
winds, pure mental energy, etc, and there isn't anything to push against. 
You would just flail around inside the field. If there's solid ground, you 
might be able to push yourself out of the field, but in midair? Hm. 
 
But it DOES make it very powerful...a person can be STR 90 and still only 
weigh 100 kg or so, making it possible for a STR 20 TK to hold Superbrick 
wih ease. 
 
Unbalancing, but logical. This being hero, point balance is more important. :) 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:16:10 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net 
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> 
Subject: Re: TK question... 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:38 AM 1/12/98 -0800, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote: 
 
>     So, what about this? Is this the way it should be played, or a house  
>     rule, or an earlier version of TK? (Note: This radically improves the  
>     power, IMHO, perhaps unbalancing it completely.) 
>      
>     Richard 
> 
> 
 
I would say this is a fairly unbalancing way to look at TK. 10 str Tk is 
enough to lift just about anyone, baring density increase or growth and not 
terribly expensive. This also seems to assume the sfx of the telekinsis is 
"mental force" when it can be just about anything. Even then, in comics, 
psychokinetics typically visualize there power as an "invisble hand" I don't 
see any reason why someone held by it, can't fight aginst it.  
 
 
I know violence doesn't solve all problems... 
	But it sure feels good! 
		Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:36:59 +0000 
From: Chris Brecken <Christopher.Brecken@sunderland.ac.uk> 
Subject: Bugs 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Has anyone ever created any electronic location bugs. 
 
The best idear i could come up with was 'Detect' bug, at range !!! 
 
Anyone got any better sujestions please 
 
Chris 
--  
"Don't put your trust in foolish promises sworn. 
 Nor cryptic message scrawled upon every wall" 
 
  Tony Clarkin, 
  The Spirit 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:48:46 -0500 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com> 
Subject: Re: Bugs 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
<x-rich>At 07:36 PM 1/12/98 +0000, Chris Brecken wrote: 
 
>Has anyone ever created any electronic location bugs. 
 
> 
 
>The best idear i could come up with was 'Detect' bug, at range !!! 
 
> 
 
>Anyone got any better sujestions please 
 
 
What's wrong with "Detect bugs at range"?  It works well IMC. 
 
 
Scott 
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
 
"Since then, at an uncertain hour, 
 
That agony returns: 
 
And till my ghastly tale is told,  
 
This heart within me burns." 
 
	<bold>Samuel Taylor Coleridge - </bold><italic>The Rime of the Ancient 
Mariner 
 
</italic>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
 
Scott C. Nolan 
 
nolan@erols.com 
 
</x-rich> 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:09:09 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Subject: Re: Bugs 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Chris Brecken wrote: 
 
> Has anyone ever created any electronic location bugs. 
>  
> The best idear i could come up with was 'Detect' bug, at range !!! 
>  
> Anyone got any better sujestions please 
 
Soudns good to me. That's what detect is there for. In heroic games, 
though, characters with "Bugging" skill or perhaps "Security Systems" 
might get such standard equipment for free. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Bugs 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "CB" == Chris Brecken <Christopher.Brecken@sunderland.ac.uk> writes: 
 
CB> Has anyone ever created any electronic location bugs. 
CB> The best idear i could come up with was 'Detect' bug, at range !!! 
 
If by "bug" you mean "homing beacon", a ranged detect should serve 
reasonably well.  A hidden beacon would be considered "Inobvious" as per 
Focus rules (and would probably require some form of Concealment skill roll 
to properly hide).  GMs should be reasonable with ranges.  A transmitter 
the size of a dime is not going to have a range greater than a few hundred 
yards. 
 
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:51:56 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: TK question... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
>      They stated that, without something to brace against, it is impossible 
>      to break free of telekinesis. Thus, assuming that I had enough 
>      strength to lift someone a few feet off the ground, I could 
>      conceivably hold them there forever, no matter how strong they were. 
 
	Um.  While this may be part of a SFX, it is not part of TK as 
written.  Whoever was targeted by that TK was flat out screwed. 
 
 
>      The went on to mention that this has happened fairly often in the 
>      comics, using Juggernaut as an example. He has been shown getting 
>      picked up by Jean Grey's TK, and not being able to break out. 
 
	Yup.  But that doesn't mean that the Champions power includes that 
ability.  That would be a much larger expenditure of points, possibly some 
Flight, UAO linked to the TK? 
 
 
>      So, what about this? Is this the way it should be played, or a house 
>      rule, or an earlier version of TK? (Note: This radically improves the 
>      power, IMHO, perhaps unbalancing it completely.) 
 
 
	This shouldn't be played this way, even with a house rule.  It 
very much unbalances the power.  Possibly I could see allowing an 
advantage to half someone's escape STR without something to brace against, 
otherwise . . . well, someone with, say, 10 STR TK could lift and hold 
any normal human indefinately.  For 15 pts.  Unblancing as all hell. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear. 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:54:24 -0800 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Monday, January 12, 1998 7:19 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
 
>At 02:22 PM 1/11/98 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>>On Sunday, January 11, 1998 7:01 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>> 
>> 
>>>At 09:18 PM 1/10/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
<snip> 
>>>>No, the duplicate has Teleportation.  For himself.  Nothing wrong 
>>with 
>>>>that. 
>>> 
>>>   I think the original intent was to have the Duplicate's pop in 
at 
>>range 
>>>on his *initial* appearance, not the following Phase. 
>> 
>>Exactly. Duplication linked to Teleportation. When Duplication is 
>>fired, the character also Teleports. SFX, the Duplicate arrives 
>>elsewhere. 
> 
>   But duplicate can't have Duplication Linked to Teleportation (or 
the 
>other way around, which is what I think you meant).  The original 
character 
>has Duplication, while under this proposal the duplicate has 
Teleportation. 
> AFAIK a Hero entity can't have a Power that's Linked to another 
entity's. 
 
 
Actually, it would be like this. I have Duplication, with 
Teleportation linked to Duplication. I summon a duplicate, and 
teleport to the other location simultaneously. SFX, the duplicate 
arrives at a distance. 
 
Alternately, and needed if the Duplicate is not identical to the 
original (aside from the Teleportation and Duplications), then the 
Duplicate can have Teleportation, Triggered by coming into existence. 
 
Otherwise, you have a power that is virtually identical to 
teleportation, but because it is created by an Advantage whose Range 
is based upon Active points in the power, it will always be _cheaper_ 
than Teleportation. 
 
Look at these figures. For 25 pts., Duplication, 100 pt duplicate, 
Ranged (+1/4). This gives you  125" Teleportation AND Duplication. 
This same Teleportation, without the Duplication, costs 250 pts. TEN 
TIMES CHEAPER. 
 
Not in my campaign, buster. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: TK question... 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
TRG> 	Yup.  But that doesn't mean that the Champions power includes that 
TRG> ability.  That would be a much larger expenditure of points, possibly 
TRG> some Flight, UAO linked to the TK? 
 
Or perhaps Jean's TK is more powerful than you may think. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:19:48 -0800 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Monday, January 12, 1998 3:35 AM, Filksinger wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
>>Judging by the photo in the 1985 
>>edition of the Guinness Book of World Records where Paul Anderson 
>lifts 6,270 
>>lbs. (2,850 kg) 
> 
>HOLD IT! 2,850 kg is _not_ 6,270 lbs. Was this initial figure given 
in 
>lbs or kg? If kg, we need to start over, as neither one of us has 
been 
>doing this correctly. 
 
 
This is what I get for getting up early and posting. 2,850 kg _is_ 
6,270 lbs. 
 
_DOH!_ (Smack head.) 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear. 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes: 
 
F> Actually, it would be like this. I have Duplication, with Teleportation 
F> linked to Duplication. I summon a duplicate, and teleport to the other 
F> location simultaneously. SFX, the duplicate arrives at a distance. 
 
Workable if the duplicate is identical to the original. 
 
However, the more I think about it, the more I find Ranged + Indirect at 
the highest level to be the cleanest solution. Very expensive, though... 
but it should be. 
 
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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:02:26 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: TK question... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> TRG> 	Yup.  But that doesn't mean that the Champions power includes that 
> TRG> ability.  That would be a much larger expenditure of points, possibly 
> TRG> some Flight, UAO linked to the TK? 
> 
> Or perhaps Jean's TK is more powerful than you may think. 
 
 
	Nope.  I'd personally spend enough on her TK to easily hold Juggy, 
but that's not the point.  There does exist decidedly weaker TK, say on 
the 30-40 STR level, that has demonstrated the ability to hold someone 
indefinately if they can't brace against something to get free.  This 
would best be represented by some Flight, UAO or some new advantage on TK 
to allow for some different mechanic to break free. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: aregalad@miami.edu 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:19:44 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Wish: Benchmarks (was: A Sample Character) 
Cc: Hero System Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org&> 
        "aregalad@miami.edu" <aregalad@miami.edu> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Howdy, 
 
> >> >Actually, you have just proved my point and validated my observations 
> >> >about INT. You are right about ONE thing. When I said INT is only good for 
> >> >Perception and INT rolls I neglected to mention skill rolls (I kind of 
> >> >lumped them with INT rolls - my bad). The thing is that skills based on 
> >> >INT and INT rolls have the same breakdown - hence they have the same 
> >> >problem. Nothing about my argument is invalidated.  
> >>  
> >> Actually it was, but if you add in INT based skills, then yes, it makes 
> >> a VAST difference, and as far as you go, I agree with you, but there 
> >> are alternatives. 
> > 
> >I'm sorry - when you say "Actually it was," what do you mean? 
>  
> Invalidated, totally. 
 
Hmmm...I'm afraid we are just going to have to disagree. I honestly can't 
even begin to see how this is the case. 
 
> > As far as INT based skills making a huge difference 
> >- not really, at least not relative to other characteristic rolls and the 
> >skills they modify. 
>  
> The invalidation because there are camapigns which emphasise skills 
> rather than powers, and in such campaigns, INT is very effective. 
 
My only point here is that there are skills based on PRE, DEX, STR just as 
there are skills based on INT. Because of this - even in a game that 
emphasizes skills over powers - INT is no more important than the other 
stats. Even if it were, this beside the point. I never said 
INT wasn't effective. My point is that if you are going to break down the 
effectiveness of ALL characteristics these categories need to make 
sense and to do so they should each make a difference in game play 
(otherwise the categories mean nothing). 
 
> >> Alternatively, as in the example of the Repartee rules, you can have an 
> >> INT CV, which would be appropriate for many mental powers, and, in a FH 
> >> game, you can allow wizards to have INT/3 spells active instead of the 
> >> INT/5 that is more appropriate for the modern era. 
> > 
> >We could, but we don't. :] 
>  
> Why not try it? I'm not running a Hero campaign at the moment, but it 
> strikes me as being eminently sensible for non-superhero campaigns. 
 
It might be sensible. I'm not saying its a bad idea - I'm just saying that 
for the purpose of my benchmarks I'd rather stick to the official 
characteristic rules. 
 
> >I want benchmarks (they don't have to be mine - 
> >of course - but benchmarks of some sort) to be an official part of 5th Ed. 
> >HERO. For this to be the case they have to be based on official rules - 
> >not house rules or genre specific rules (as good as they may be). 
>  
> That I agree with 
 
Cool. 
  
> >> Anyway, as I stated earlier, INT is very cheap for its utility. 
> > 
> >I'm not at all concerned with cost.  
 
> ! 
 
Heh, your exclamation mark response leads me to believe that you 
have not fully understood my argument (probably my fault for not being 
clear enough). I have NEVER said that INT wasn't cost effective. I'm just 
saying that if you make 20 near human maximum, there is not enough 
granularity to make a convincing set of benchmarks. Most benchmark tables 
I've seen break stats down into aproximately 5 categories between average 
and human maximum. Fuzion's are pretty standard. Again, they are: 
Everyman, Competent, Heroic, Incredible and Legendary. If 20 is near 
maximim you only have 3 breakdown points:  11<, 12< and 13<. 
 
Can you see this? Does this make sense?  
 
Let me try to give an example. I'm making Doc Genius in a campaign that 
heavily emphasizes skills over powers. I decide to look at my 5th Edition 
HERO book and find that they have a handy dandy benchmark table that looks 
something like this: 
 
 
10-12 Everyman		11< 
13-14 Competent		12< 
15-16 Heroic		12< 
17-18 Incredible	13< 
19-20 Legendary		13< 
 
Cool, well Doc Genius is the brightest there is, so I buy him a 20 INT. 
Now he has a 13< in his 50 science skills. 
 
Now my friend Mike is making a character named Mr. Pedantry. This guy is 
pretty smart (although a show-off) but Mike decides that he is not as 
smart as Doc Genius. Because of this he buys Mr. Pedantry an 18 INT. Now 
the base Mr. Pedantry's 10 science skills is ...... 13<! Wait! That's the 
same as Doc Genius' Legendary INT. 
 
Now, I'm not really complaining about my skill base. I mean, 13 or less in 
50 sciences is pretty good. I DO, however, think the benchmarks don't make 
sense. Why does somebody with a Legendary INT have the same skill base as 
somebody with an Incredible INT? Why buy a Legendary INT at all?  
 
That is why I can't understand why you feel my argument has been refuted 
somehow. All I was arguing is that HERO needs to take these discrepancies 
into consideration when they make their benchmark tables (if they make 
'em). They either need to make the human maximum for INT (and maybe PRE) 
much higher to give the granularity such benchmark tables need - or they 
need to redefine the way INT works (all of Vox and Phantom's suggestions 
were good, IMO). 
 
Well, that is about as clear as I can be. If you still can't see my point, 
I would appreciate an explanation of yours. I'd honestly be interested in 
hearing your logic. Thanks for your time. 
 
 
Dragonfly 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: aregalad@miami.edu 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:25:01 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re: Damage Benchmarks 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> I would like to see something that listed benchmarks for Damage in terms of 
> volts or amps, pounds TNT,  and so on. It could give a better idea of how to 
> translate things, and also let the characters know just how powerfull that 
> 12d6 EB is. 
 
I agree: 
 
Damage Benchmarks would be cool too (as would benchmarks for skills and 
levels). 
 
Dragonfly 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:40:14 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
   OK, one more question for help regarding The Ultimate Super Vehicle. 
   I need help from those who are better informed than I about what 
equipment should be considered "standard" for all vehicles of various 
types.  I especially need help with air and water vehicles, since it's been 
several years since I've been aboard either where I could get a clear of 
the controls, and the fershlugginer Britannica doesn't have this 
information (I remember that my old World Book did; I miss it). 
   These are the lists as I currently have them: 
 
   Air Vehicles: 
Altimeter 
Beacon Lights 
Climate Control 
Fuel Gauge 
Interior Lights 
Radar (360 degree, non-Discriminatory, non-Targeting) 
Radio (2-way) 
Running Lights 
Seat Belts 
 
   Ground Vehicles: 
Air Conditioning (except motorcycles) 
Cigarette Lighter 
Dome Light 
Engine Thermometer 
Fuel Gauge 
Headlights 
Locks for all doors 
Lock for the ignition 
Lock for the trunk 
Odometer 
Radio (AM/FM) 
Seat Belts & Air Bag 
Speedometer 
Turn Signals 
Windshield Wipers 
 
   Water Vehicles: 
Fuel Gauge 
Interior Lights 
Lock for the ignition 
Running Lights 
Seat Belts 
Speedometer 
 
   As you can see, I'm going to need some help with correct terminology 
here as well as the equipment itself. 
   Keep in mind that this is equipment other than that directly associated 
with moving, turning, and so forth. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:49:23 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Bugs 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:36 PM 1/12/98 +0000, Chris Brecken wrote: 
>Has anyone ever created any electronic location bugs. 
> 
>The best idear i could come up with was 'Detect' bug, at range !!! 
> 
>Anyone got any better sujestions please 
 
   In TUSV, I'm also using Detect at Range, though I call the Sense "Detect 
Selected Target."  Optional elements are Sense, Discriminatory, Targeting, 
Telescopic, and 360 Degree, and IAF, Continuing Charges, and Requires an 
Attack Roll (-1/2) are also applied. 
   (The Attack Roll is made when the bug is planted, and does not suffer 
penalties for Active Points.) 
   Of course, as with everything else in TUSV, this has yet to pass muster 
with the Line Edtior (Mr. Harlick). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:45:00 -0800 
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger) 
Subject: Re: TK question... 
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
     Lots of people responded to my question, saying virtually the same  
     thing. Thanks to all. Let's take one response, for example: 
      
     Tim Gilberg wrote: 
     >I wrote: 
     >>They stated that, without something to brace against, it  
     >>is impossible to break free of telekinesis. Thus, assuming  
     >>that I had enough strength to lift someone a few feet off  
     >>the ground, I could conceivably hold them there forever, no  
     >>matter how strong they were. 
      
     >Um.  While this may be part of a SFX, it is not part of TK as 
     >written.  Whoever was targeted by that TK was flat out screwed. 
      
     That would have been Fiacho. I was very lucky to hit him, rolling a  
     six, and he was in the air for the rest of combat. (Note: this is a  
     30 STR TK that I used.) 
      
     >>They went on to mention that this has happened fairly often in the  
     >>comics, using Juggernaut as an example. He has been shown getting  
     >>picked up by Jean Grey's TK, and not being able to break out. 
      
     >Yup.  But that doesn't mean that the Champions power includes that 
     >ability.  That would be a much larger expenditure of points, possibly  
     >some Flight, UAO linked to the TK? 
      
     Exactly what I suggested to them. Plus, Jean's TK is pretty hefty.  
     She's been shown picking up the Blackbird, hasn't she? Maybe she also  
     has some additional TK STR, only to continue holding someone. What  
     kind of limitation would that be? 
      
     >>So, what about this? Is this the way it should be played, or a house  
     >>rule, or an earlier version of TK? (Note: This radically improves  
     >>the power, IMHO, perhaps unbalancing it completely.) 
      
     >This shouldn't be played this way, even with a house rule.  It 
     >very much unbalances the power.  Possibly I could see allowing an  
     >advantage to half someone's escape STR without something to brace  
     >against, otherwise . . . well, someone with, say, 10 STR TK could  
     >lift and hold any normal human indefinitely.  For 15 pts.  Unblancing  
     >as all hell. 
      
     That's exactly the way I felt, too. And the reason I brought it up  
     here. I didn't want to stop the game to argue the rules, so I just let  
     it run. But I think that I will talk to the GM before the next game,  
     and see if we can correct this. 
      
     The funny thing about this is that this is a GM decision that's  
     completely unbalancing *IN MY FAVOR*, and I'm still fighting it!  
      
     Am I a moron or what? ;) 
      
     One last question: So TK is performed like a normal grab, right? Well,  
     does it take the normal CV modifiers that the grab maneuver takes (-2  
     to OCV, IIRC)? Or is it easier to use because it is a power? 
      
     Richard 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: jrc@pop1.nai.net 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:19:52 -0500 
From: "Joe Claffey Jr." <jrc@mail1.nai.net> 
Subject: Re: Magic Shapeshifting Potions 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
"Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> asks, 
> 
>So how do you model the classical fantasy 'magic potion', such that a player 
>character can find one in a chest and be able to use it. Drinking it lets the 
>hero turn into any animal he wants, for up to 1 hour. 
 
 Usually a VPP: Animal Powers, used with a Universal Expendable Focus. 
 
>And after you've modeled the potion, how do you model the alchemist who 
>makes a 
>living creating and selling such potions? 
> 
>This problem seems to be a perennial one in Fantasy Hero games. 
 
 The system that I'm working on treats the potions as Universal Expendable 
Foci. They take a lot of Extra Time to create (typically a week). Many 
require ingredients that are difficult to find. 
 
  Joe Claffey               | "In the end, everything is a gag." 
  jrc@ct1.nai.net           |               - Charlie Chaplin 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: Explosives 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:53:30 -0500 
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Stirling Westrup recently kicked off a debate on TNT sticks damage in the 
thread "Double Energy per DC?"  I agree with his assessment of the problem 
with the official rules.  Examining the tables and equations on cutting 
charges in a military field guide (wonderful, the things you can pick up 
in used book store), where it's recommended to roughly double the charge 
for every doubling of the mass to be effected, I don't buy the rule that 
doubling the number of TNT sticks increases damage by +2d6. 
 
Detailed info on demolitions can be found in the engineering field manual 
at  
www.atsc-army.org/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/5-34/toc.htm.  
 
Another quibble with the official table:  Many have questioned whether 
firearms in the game do unrealistically low damage amounts.  To me, this 
pales in comparison to the problem of the wimpy damage done by high 
explosives.  5d6 EX with a dynamite stick?  You couldn't K.O. Sugar Ray 
Leonard with one of those. 
 
Here's my approach.  The explosion of one gram of TNT releases about 1 
kilocalorie of energy (1 kcal = 4,187 joules).  C-4 explosive is 1.34 
times as effective as TNT.  Exploding one gram of nitroglycerine releases 
about 6,300 joules, but it's nastier to work with than TNT. 
 
Assuming that 1 DC is about 50 joules with a doubling of energy for every 
additional DC, that puts one gram of TNT at about 7d6 damage, provided the 
character takes the full brunt of the blast. 
 
That rarely happens, though, unless you have a guy like the Tick, who just 
might throw himself on or even swallow a bomb to save Arthur.  An 
explosion's energy  is dissipated into every possible direction, even into 
directions where there's nothing worth blowing up.  Packing an explosive 
charge into the material to be cut or breached, and so confining the rapid 
expansion of gasses, is far more effective than merely placing the charge 
right next to the object or wall.  As a rule of thumb, to judge the 
effective energy of a charge when it explodes next to or near its target, 
or within the same hex as the target, divide the total energy released by 
five. 
 
So that 1 gm of TNT exploding in the open has an effective blast energy of 
just 4,200/5 = 800 joules directed at any single nearby target, for a 5d6 
EX.  500 gm (or 1 lb.) would do 14d6 EX, 1 kg 15d6, 1 ton 25d6, 1 kiloton 
35d6, and 1 megaton 45d6. 
 
Some more fun facts: 
 
When the pressure wave of an explosion can reflect off a solid surface, 
its pressure may be multiplied several times.  A shock wave that might 
cause minimal injury to a person in the open can cause severe trauma to a 
victim standing beside a stone wall. 
 
A powerful shock wave may be accompanied by transient winds that can 
accelerate small objects to velocities of hundreds of meters per second.  
A missile traveling at 15 m/sec can easily penetrate human skin, while one 
moving at 120 m/sec can enter any of the major body cavities, causing 
serious internal injury. 
 
The ear is very sensitive to blast energies.  A pressure of just 5-7 psi 
above atmospheric pressure can rupture the tympanic membrane, resulting in 
ringing in the ear, pain, and some loss of hearing.  So a Flash Attack vs. 
hearing may be appropriately linked to typical explosions, with a 
permanent deafness Transform possible with very powerful blasts. 
 
To get even more realistic with explosives, the damage dice should not 
drop off as rapidly as with the basic Explosion Advantage.  For persons in 
the open, the minimum safe distance in meters is 100 * the cube-root of 
the weight of the TNT in pounds.  So for just 1 pound, this recommended 
distance is 100 meters.  For 500 pounds, 800 meters.  Treating explosives 
as dropping of by -1 DC per 3" or 4" distance gives a more threateningly 
realistic blast radius. 
 
An explosion shock wave will travel much faster and farther in water than 
in air, so the blast damage will fall off even more gradually, perhaps by 
-1 DC per 6"-8" distance from the blast center. 
 
Fragmentation bombs involve something more.  They do damage both from the 
concussive blast of the charge and from the fragments or shrapnel sent 
flying at great speed.  I would treat that as an autofire RKA explosion 
linked to the explosive charge, to represent the multiple fragments that 
may strike every target within the blast radius.  Typical fragmentation 
grenades might be a 10d6 or 11d6 EX, -1 DC per 3," with a 1-1/2d6 or 2d6 
autofire RKA EX, -1 DC per 2", linked to it. 
 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
     
 
 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:07:08 -0800 
From: mcallahan <mcallahan@home.com> 
Reply-To: mcallahan@home.com 
Subject: Re: TK question... 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
The GM's decision was flat wrong, basic TK is directly resisted by 
Strength. For the "I can lift you of the ground and since you have 
nothing to push against you can't move" type of TK try buying TK AVLD 
versus flight used as strength  (as per Page 142 of the BBB 2" of fligt 
can be used as 1 pt of STR), and teleportation escapes automaticly, 
still ugly, but at least its expensive. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Explosives 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "LC" == Len Carpenter <redlion@voicenet.com> writes: 
 
LC> Stirling Westrup recently kicked off a debate on TNT sticks damage in 
LC> the thread "Double Energy per DC?" I agree with his assessment of the 
LC> problem with the official rules. Examining the tables and equations on 
LC> cutting charges in a military field guide 
 
Are *COMPLETELY* different from TNT.  There are basically two types of 
explosives: those that cut and those that "explode". 
 
C4 does not explode. It creates tremendous localized shock that literally 
causes the thing to which it is attached to shake itself apart.  Stand a 
few feet away and you'll catch some buffetting and maybe some shrap. 
 
TNT does explode, great gouts of fire pushed by a large shock wave, 
completely different effect. 
 
One should not be used as a benchmark for another. 
 
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--  
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: TK question... 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 01:14:32 -0800 
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On Monday, January 12, 1998 5:25 PM, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote: 
 
 
>     Lots of people responded to my question, saying virtually the 
same 
>     thing. Thanks to all. Let's take one response, for example: 
> 
>     Tim Gilberg wrote: 
>     >I wrote: 
<snip> 
>     >>So, what about this? Is this the way it should be played, or a 
house 
>     >>rule, or an earlier version of TK? (Note: This radically 
improves 
>     >>the power, IMHO, perhaps unbalancing it completely.) 
> 
>     >This shouldn't be played this way, even with a house rule.  It 
>     >very much unbalances the power.  Possibly I could see allowing 
an 
>     >advantage to half someone's escape STR without something to 
brace 
>     >against, otherwise . . . well, someone with, say, 10 STR TK 
could 
>     >lift and hold any normal human indefinitely.  For 15 pts. 
Unblancing 
>     >as all hell. 
> 
>     That's exactly the way I felt, too. And the reason I brought it 
up 
>     here. I didn't want to stop the game to argue the rules, so I 
just let 
>     it run. But I think that I will talk to the GM before the next 
game, 
>     and see if we can correct this. 
 
 
Try this for the TK described- TK, NND. True, it isn't how NND is 
usually used, but TK has two effects here, grabbing and damaging. 
Neither, one, or both could be NND. (An example of an NND TK for 
damage would be someone grabbing your heart, or squeezing your lungs 
directly.) 
 
Filksinger 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 07:44:58 -0500 
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> 
Subject: Re: Bugs 
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At 07:36 PM 1/12/98 +0000, Chris Brecken wrote: 
>Has anyone ever created any electronic location bugs. 
> 
>The best idear i could come up with was 'Detect' bug, at range !!! 
> 
>Anyone got any better sujestions please 
> 
 
This is one of those seemingly simple everyday items which should 
be simple to make, but for some reason always come out costing 40 
points in Champions rules. 
 
Anyway, I think there's a discussion of bugs in the Dark Champions 
book.  You can also use Detect, Clairsentience or Radio Hearing, I 
suppose. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 05:59:58 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear. 
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At 01:54 PM 1/12/98 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>>>>>No, the duplicate has Teleportation.  For himself.  Nothing wrong with 
>>>>>that. 
>>>> 
>>>>   I think the original intent was to have the Duplicate's pop in at range 
>>>>on his *initial* appearance, not the following Phase. 
>>> 
>>>Exactly. Duplication linked to Teleportation. When Duplication is 
>>>fired, the character also Teleports. SFX, the Duplicate arrives 
>>>elsewhere. 
>> 
>>   But duplicate can't have Duplication Linked to Teleportation (or the 
>>other way around, which is what I think you meant).  The original character 
>>has Duplication, while under this proposal the duplicate has Teleportation. 
>> AFAIK a Hero entity can't have a Power that's Linked to another entity's. 
> 
>Actually, it would be like this. I have Duplication, with 
>Teleportation linked to Duplication. I summon a duplicate, and 
>teleport to the other location simultaneously. SFX, the duplicate 
>arrives at a distance. 
 
   That *might* work; however: 
 
>Alternately, and needed if the Duplicate is not identical to the 
>original (aside from the Teleportation and Duplications), then the 
>Duplicate can have Teleportation, Triggered by coming into existence. 
 
   This makes much more sense to my mind, even if the Duplicate is 
identical to the original.  However, it would have to be Limited so that 
*only* the activation of the Duplicate could set it off. 
 
>Otherwise, you have a power that is virtually identical to 
>teleportation, but because it is created by an Advantage whose Range 
>is based upon Active points in the power, it will always be _cheaper_ 
>than Teleportation. 
> 
>Look at these figures. For 25 pts., Duplication, 100 pt duplicate, 
>Ranged (+1/4). This gives you  125" Teleportation AND Duplication. 
>This same Teleportation, without the Duplication, costs 250 pts. TEN 
>TIMES CHEAPER. 
> 
>Not in my campaign, buster. 
 
   Did you take into account:  1) Ranged is a +1/2 Advantage.  2) Ranged 
still requires an Attack Roll vs the target hex, with Range Modifiers.  3) 
That Teleport is Linked to Duplication. 
   There may be other elements to consider as well; these are just the ones 
that came to my attention right off. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-7,10-12 
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts) 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:16:26 EST 
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>   Ground Vehicles: 
>Air Conditioning (except motorcycles) 
 
What about a heater for cold climates? 
 
>Cigarette Lighter 
 
According to an article in my local paper's auto section, this one is on 
its way out as standard equipment.  You can still get one installed for 
newer cars, but it might cost more. 
 
Leah 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:48:24 -0500 
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Leah says: 
>>Cigarette Lighter 
>this one is on its way out as standard equipment. 
 
But I wouldn't be surprised if they left the jack in, though, since 
there are so many device adapters that plug into the lighter jack. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 9:13:47 CST 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
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>    OK, one more question for help regarding The Ultimate Super Vehicle. 
>    I need help from those who are better informed than I about what 
>    These are the lists as I currently have them: 
>  
>    Ground Vehicles: 
> Air Conditioning (except motorcycles) 
> Cigarette Lighter 
> Dome Light 
> Engine Thermometer 
> Fuel Gauge 
> Headlights 
> Locks for all doors 
> Lock for the ignition 
> Lock for the trunk 
> Odometer 
> Radio (AM/FM) 
> Seat Belts & Air Bag 
> Speedometer 
> Turn Signals 
> Windshield Wipers 
 
CB radio vs. cellular phone? 
 
For all of this, you might look in a local library for the "Jane's"  
series of books for various vehicles. 
 
 
DonM. 
 
-- 
========================================================================= 
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist         dmckinne@cmi.csc.com = 
= International Telecommunications Data Systems          (217) 239-8365 = 
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                          (217) 351-8250 = 
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 = 
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org    (217) 469-9917 =  
========================================================================= 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
CC: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
From: Joshua Krage <jkrage@access.digex.net> 
Date: 13 Jan 1998 10:15:52 -0500 
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Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
>    These are the lists as I currently have them: 
>    Air Vehicles: 
> Altimeter 
> Beacon Lights 
> Climate Control 
> Fuel Gauge 
> Interior Lights 
> Radar (360 degree, non-Discriminatory, non-Targeting) 
> Radio (2-way) 
> Running Lights 
> Seat Belts 
 
All Contemporary Planes: 
  Choke/Throttle 
  Attitude Gauge (pitch, roll, yaw) 
  Transponder 
  Navigational Radio/Aids (VOR, compass) 
  various Checklists (takeoff, maintenance, startup, etc) 
  (manuevering) Yoke, Trim, Flaps, Rudder 
 
Commercial/Big Planes: 
  Instrument Landing System (ILS) 
  Hijack Alarm 
  Public Address System 
  various hydraulic readouts/controls 
  more readouts/controls for control sub-systems 
  more readouts/controls in general :) 
  Landing Gear 
  Land-steering wheel 
  Air braking system (pops up to increase air resistance) 
  Collision alarm (radar based) 
 
Military: 
  HUD 
  Stick instead of Yoke (fighters/bombers) 
  Encrypted Radio & Transponder 
  Fancy Navigational and Weapons Computers 
  Systems hardened against EMP 
  GPS 
  IFF (Identify Friend or Foe) 
  Missile Lock Warning 
  ECM/ECCM 
  Mid-Air refueling equipment (both giving and receiving) 
 
 
>    Ground Vehicles: 
> Air Conditioning (except motorcycles) 
> Cigarette Lighter 
> Dome Light 
> Engine Thermometer 
> Fuel Gauge 
> Headlights 
> Locks for all doors 
> Lock for the ignition 
> Lock for the trunk 
> Odometer 
> Radio (AM/FM) 
> Seat Belts & Air Bag 
> Speedometer 
> Turn Signals 
> Windshield Wipers 
 
Normal: 
  Engine Tachometer (not everywhere) 
  Motorcycles _do_ exist with A/C, and radio (non-helmet)! 
  Airbag 
  Anti-lock brakes 
  Child locks 
  Power locks, windows 
  Sun/Moon roof 
  Hatchback vs trunk 
  Trip-ometer (resettable) 
  Mirrors (rear & side) 
 
Optional Accessories: 
  Tape Deck 
  CD Player (including multi-CD systems usually in the trunk) 
  GPS 
  HUD (for speed) 
  Navigational Systems 
  Internet Access 
  Mobile phone 
  Television/VCR/Satellite feed 
  Jakuzi (limos only) 
  4-wheel drive 
  All wheel drive 
  Rear A/C 
 
 
>    Water Vehicles: 
> Fuel Gauge 
> Interior Lights 
> Lock for the ignition 
> Running Lights 
> Seat Belts 
> Speedometer 
 
Optional: 
  GPS 
  Radio 
  Radar 
  Fish-locator 
  Sonar (both low and military grades) 
  Tachometer 
 
Submarines (both research & military): 
  Sonar 
  Air Supply 
  Periscope 
  Radio with retrievable buoy antenna 
 
I assume you're going to cover the really exotic stuff elsewhere. :) 
 
--  
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
jkrage@access.digex.net    UNIX and Networks and Computer Security, oh my! 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
From: Joshua Krage <jkrage@access.digex.net> 
Date: 13 Jan 1998 10:27:15 -0500 
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Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com> writes: 
> Leah says: 
> >>Cigarette Lighter 
> >this one is on its way out as standard equipment. 
> But I wouldn't be surprised if they left the jack in, though, since 
> there are so many device adapters that plug into the lighter jack. 
 
This is actually what they're doing.  My (new) car comes with the 
lighter jack, but no lighter.  Its just covered by a rubber cap that I 
can remove to plug in a CD player or something.  If I wanted to get a 
lighter, then I would have to special order from the dealer and pay 
the big bucks for it. 
 
--  
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
jkrage@access.digex.net    UNIX and Networks and Computer Security, oh my! 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Bugs 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
BG> and Requires an Attack Roll (-1/2) are also applied. 
BG>    (The Attack Roll is made when the bug is planted, and does not suffer 
BG> penalties for Active Points.) 
 
Since "Requires a Skill Roll" does have active point penalties and is worth 
- -1/2, having a similar roll but not having active point penalties should be 
worth less of a bonus. 
 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 08:11:12 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
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At 09:16 AM 1/13/98 EST, Leah L Watts wrote: 
> 
>>   Ground Vehicles: 
>>Air Conditioning (except motorcycles) 
> 
>What about a heater for cold climates? 
 
   Basically the same function.  (I'll make sure that's clear, though.) 
 
>>Cigarette Lighter 
> 
>According to an article in my local paper's auto section, this one is on 
>its way out as standard equipment.  You can still get one installed for 
>newer cars, but it might cost more. 
 
   I think I'll include it on the list for now anyway (because it's used as 
an electrical plug for some items), but make a note of that. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:15:17 -0600 (CST) 
Subject: TUSV: Boats got seatbelts ?  
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>  
> Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
> >    These are the lists as I currently have them: 
>  
>  
> >    Water Vehicles: 
> > Fuel Gauge 
> > Interior Lights 
> > Lock for the ignition 
> > Running Lights 
> > Seat Belts 
> > Speedometer 
>  
 
Boats have seatbelts as standard equipment ?   TUSV is going to cover 
jet ski's and water scooters right ? 
 
Curt 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Subject: Re: STR Cost + 5th Ed. Suggestion 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 98 16:38:19 -0000 
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From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
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> GURPS had sidebars on every page--but their sidebars were places where 
> they threw more discontiguous rules at you. How about having sidebars that 
> explain some of the rationale and spirit behind the rules on the same 
> page? That way, the rules are all available as reference, without the 
> meta-discussion directly in the way, while at the same time, the spirit 
> of the law is right there by the letter there for all to see.  
 
Woow hooo. A good use for sidebars. I usually hate them because they are  
over used (GURPS) or they are underused (one of the Ultimates). This  
would be a VERY good addition to the 5th Ed. IMO. 
 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:51:03 -0500 (EST) 
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
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On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>  
>    Ground Vehicles: 
> Air Conditioning (except motorcycles) 
> Cigarette Lighter 
> Dome Light 
> Engine Thermometer 
> Fuel Gauge 
> Headlights 
> Locks for all doors 
> Lock for the ignition 
> Lock for the trunk 
> Odometer 
> Radio (AM/FM) 
> Seat Belts & Air Bag 
> Speedometer 
> Turn Signals 
> Windshield Wipers 
>  
 
You may want to mention something about devices that aren't entirely 
standard, but are pretty frequent and minor options. It probably 
wouldn't be too unbalancing to give tape decks or CD players for no point  
cost, though I'd be inclined to charge for a cellular phone. 
 
An 8-track player is probably a physical limitation. 8-<)> 
 
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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:32:08 -0800 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: TUSV:Radically changing vehicle costs... 
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When I was using Champions for a space opera game, one thing I noticed was 
that humongous battlewagons were far too cheap relative to grav cars, tramp 
freighters, and jet belts. Then I found a very reasonable way to balance 
this, at the cost (as it were) of making large vehicles very expensive: 
 
Buy all powers (armor, running, flight, life support) with enough area 
effect to cover the vehicle. (Or not...buy life support only for the crew 
quarters, for example.) 
 
This makes buying a Star Destroyer a LOT more costly, points-wise, than 
buying an X-Wing. 
 
Also for TUSV:Crew requirements, with the 'Large Crew' limitation and 
'Small Crew' advantage. Possibly even base crew requirements off the active 
cost for powers (say, 1 person/20 active points, with adjustments for tech 
level, etc?) So that your super-mega-death-cannon, 10d6 KA, needs a crew of 
seven to man it? (That's a bit high, actually, so my numbers might be 
off...maybe 1 person/40 active points? I dunno. That's why YOU'RE the writer!) 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:34:42 -0800 
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger) 
Subject: Re[2]: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
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     Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
     <quote> 
     You may want to mention something about devices that aren't entirely  
     standard, but are pretty frequent and minor options. It probably 
     wouldn't be too unbalancing to give tape decks or CD players for no  
     point cost, though I'd be inclined to charge for a cellular phone. 
     </quote> 
      
     This is a good point. I don't want to have to buy windshield wipers as  
     +1d6 HA, AoE one hex, only vs. raindrops. Virtually everything in a  
     car should just be special effects. Including those "1d6 EB, AoE:cone,  
     does no stun, does no body, does no KB" headlights that someone  
     designed awhile back. 
      
     Richard 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:50:33 -0800 (PST) 
From: Duane Morris <duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
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On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    OK, one more question for help regarding The Ultimate Super Vehicle. 
>    I need help from those who are better informed than I about what 
> equipment should be considered "standard" for all vehicles of various 
> types.  I especially need help with air and water vehicles, since it's been 
> several years since I've been aboard either where I could get a clear of 
> the controls, and the fershlugginer Britannica doesn't have this 
> information (I remember that my old World Book did; I miss it). 
>    These are the lists as I currently have them: 
>  
>    Air Vehicles: 
 
Don't forget the emergency beacon, and some sort of eidetic memory <the 
various black boxes> and a trim indicator. 
 
>    Ground Vehicles: 
> Air Conditioning (except motorcycles) 
<who get it at velocity for free..> (: 
 
Another possibility is a tachometer. 
 
 
Duane. 
 
------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Duane Morris <duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca>   Dept. of Technical Services 
Faculty of Pure and Applied Science        Petrie Science Stores 
York University, North York, Ontario  M3J 1P3, CANADA 
Voice: (416) 736-5244; Fax: (416) 736-5516 
 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:05:18 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
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At 09:50 AM 1/13/98 -0800, Duane Morris wrote: 
>On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>    Air Vehicles: 
> 
>Don't forget the emergency beacon, and some sort of eidetic memory <the 
>various black boxes> and a trim indicator. 
 
   As to the first two, I'm of a mind that these should be paid for, though 
they are cheap and it shouldn't be too much of a quibble.  On the other 
hand, I'm not fully convinced of it. 
   As to the trim indicator... pardon my ignorance, but what is it? 
 
>>    Ground Vehicles: 
>> Air Conditioning (except motorcycles) 
><who get it at velocity for free..> (: 
> 
>Another possibility is a tachometer. 
 
   I'm not convinced that it's really common enough to be "everyvehicle," 
though at the same time I'm even less convinced that it's useful enough to 
not be.  I think I'll put it in. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:13:40 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
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At 10:15 AM 1/13/98 -0500, Joshua Krage wrote: 
>All Contemporary Planes: 
>  Choke/Throttle 
>  Attitude Gauge (pitch, roll, yaw) 
>  Transponder 
 
   I need help identifying what this one is/does.... 
 
>  Navigational Radio/Aids (VOR, compass) 
>  various Checklists (takeoff, maintenance, startup, etc) 
>  (manuevering) Yoke, Trim, Flaps, Rudder 
 
   Choke/Throttle and Yoke/Trim/etc. are part of the basic makeup of the 
vehicle, and I don't think I could figure out how to make a vehicle pay 
points for those cheklists (unless it was through a KS).  The rest look fine. 
 
>Commercial/Big Planes: 
>  Instrument Landing System (ILS) 
>  Hijack Alarm 
>  Public Address System 
>  various hydraulic readouts/controls 
>  more readouts/controls for control sub-systems 
>  more readouts/controls in general :) 
>  Landing Gear 
>  Land-steering wheel 
>  Air braking system (pops up to increase air resistance) 
>  Collision alarm (radar based) 
> 
>Military: 
>  HUD 
>  Stick instead of Yoke (fighters/bombers) 
>  Encrypted Radio & Transponder 
>  Fancy Navigational and Weapons Computers 
>  Systems hardened against EMP 
>  GPS 
>  IFF (Identify Friend or Foe) 
>  Missile Lock Warning 
>  ECM/ECCM 
>  Mid-Air refueling equipment (both giving and receiving) 
 
   Out of these, most of what isn't part of the basic operation of the 
vehicle (like the land-steering wheel) should probably have points paid for 
them, however few that may be.  I may, in a draft after the first, create 
some equipment packages for various uses. 
 
>Normal: 
>  Engine Tachometer (not everywhere) 
>  Motorcycles _do_ exist with A/C, and radio (non-helmet)! 
>  Airbag 
>  Anti-lock brakes 
>  Child locks 
>  Power locks, windows 
>  Sun/Moon roof 
>  Hatchback vs trunk 
>  Trip-ometer (resettable) 
>  Mirrors (rear & side) 
 
   Mostly the same kind of story.  Airbag was on the list, tachometer is 
being added, and the rest is mostly a matter of construction. 
 
>>    Water Vehicles: 
>Submarines (both research & military): 
>  Sonar 
>  Air Supply 
>  Periscope 
>  Radio with retrievable buoy antenna 
 
   Again, these are things that should probably be paid for with points.... 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:52:40 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Bugs 
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At 10:57 AM 1/13/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
> 
>BG> and Requires an Attack Roll (-1/2) are also applied. 
>BG>    (The Attack Roll is made when the bug is planted, and does not suffer 
>BG> penalties for Active Points.) 
> 
>Since "Requires a Skill Roll" does have active point penalties and is worth 
>- -1/2, having a similar roll but not having active point penalties should be 
>worth less of a bonus. 
 
  It doesn't have Active Point penalties, but does suffer from a Range 
Modifier when performed at range, can be Dodged, and may be subject to 
other penalties that a straight Required Skill Roll wouldn't suffer. 
--- 
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   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:54:15 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Boats got seatbelts ?  
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At 10:15 AM 1/13/98 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote: 
>> Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
>> >    These are the lists as I currently have them: 
>> >    Water Vehicles: 
>> > Fuel Gauge 
>> > Interior Lights 
>> > Lock for the ignition 
>> > Running Lights 
>> > Seat Belts 
>> > Speedometer 
> 
>Boats have seatbelts as standard equipment ?   TUSV is going to cover 
>jet ski's and water scooters right ? 
 
   Answering the questions in order: oops, I don't think they do; and yes. 
--- 
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Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:56:00 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
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At 11:51 AM 1/13/98 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote: 
>You may want to mention something about devices that aren't entirely 
>standard, but are pretty frequent and minor options. It probably 
>wouldn't be too unbalancing to give tape decks or CD players for no point  
>cost, though I'd be inclined to charge for a cellular phone. 
 
   The "minor" equipment you're talking about really is minor.  As I have 
it now, there will be a point cost for these "optional extras," but most of 
the constructs (such as the examples you give) will be 1 point, or 
occasionally 2. 
--- 
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   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:20:06 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV:Radically changing vehicle costs... 
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At 09:32 AM 1/13/98 -0800, Lizard wrote: 
>When I was using Champions for a space opera game, one thing I noticed was 
>that humongous battlewagons were far too cheap relative to grav cars, tramp 
>freighters, and jet belts. Then I found a very reasonable way to balance 
>this, at the cost (as it were) of making large vehicles very expensive: 
> 
>Buy all powers (armor, running, flight, life support) with enough area 
>effect to cover the vehicle. (Or not...buy life support only for the crew 
>quarters, for example.) 
> 
>This makes buying a Star Destroyer a LOT more costly, points-wise, than 
>buying an X-Wing. 
 
   It's also a bit much, especially considering that in most campaigns the 
vehicles battling each other would be comparable in size and class. 
   There's also the rule (mostly new) that an organization can buy 2X the 
number of an identical class of vehicle for +5 points.  So if the Star 
Destroyer is built on 500 base points and the X-Wings are built on 200 
each, that Star Destroyer had better be comparable to... well, *lots and 
lots* of X-Wings!  (Though this balances out partially, because any given 
X-Wing can only do so much damage.) 
 
>Also for TUSV:Crew requirements, with the 'Large Crew' limitation and 
>'Small Crew' advantage. Possibly even base crew requirements off the active 
>cost for powers (say, 1 person/20 active points, with adjustments for tech 
>level, etc?) So that your super-mega-death-cannon, 10d6 KA, needs a crew of 
>seven to man it? (That's a bit high, actually, so my numbers might be 
>off...maybe 1 person/40 active points? I dunno. That's why YOU'RE the 
writer!) 
 
   The basic crew for a vehicle is one person, who must have the proper 
class of Vehicle Familiarity; a Crew Disadvantage is built from there.  2X 
required Crew is +5 points; 3X points in required Skills is +5 points.  I 
also have other modifiers for how well the Vehicle runs with a skeleton crew. 
   As for number of people required to operate a single device, 
multi-person firing crews were (IIRC) introduced in the VIPER sourcebook, 
which gives a -1 Limitation for "Two-Man Firing Crew."  I'd be for giving 
an additional -1/2 for each additional person in the required firing crew. 
However, as a matter of taste, I'd make it a Limitation of the weapon, not 
part of a Disadvantage (YMMV). 
--- 
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:03:14 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Explosives 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
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Len Carpenter writes: 
<some stuff zapped> 
> Another quibble with the official table:  Many have questioned whether 
> firearms in the game do unrealistically low damage amounts.  To me, this 
> pales in comparison to the problem of the wimpy damage done by high 
> explosives.  5d6 EX with a dynamite stick?  You couldn't K.O. Sugar Ray 
> Leonard with one of those. 
A stick of dynamite a meter away (same hex) probably _isn't_ all that deadly. 
>  
> Here's my approach.  The explosion of one gram of TNT releases about 1 
> kilocalorie of energy (1 kcal = 4,187 joules).  C-4 explosive is 1.34 
> times as effective as TNT.  Exploding one gram of nitroglycerine releases 
> about 6,300 joules, but it's nastier to work with than TNT. 
>  
> Assuming that 1 DC is about 50 joules with a doubling of energy for every 
> additional DC, that puts one gram of TNT at about 7d6 damage, provided the 
> character takes the full brunt of the blast. 
 
That assumption is really only valid for bullets.  On the one hand, a STR 13 
guy with a broadsword (1d+1) is _not_ swinging the sword for 400 joules, he 
probably isn't even swinging it for 200 joules.  This is even more notable for 
punches and kicks, even someone pretty strong and trained in martial arts isn't 
going to be hitting for a lot over 100 joules.  OTOH, a tablespoon of boiling 
water will deliver around 3000 joules of thermal energy into you if you pour it 
over your hand, and that isn't a 7d6 energy blast ;).  DCs don't measure heat, 
they measure destructive ability. 
 
> So that 1 gm of TNT exploding in the open has an effective blast energy of 
> just 4,200/5 = 800 joules directed at any single nearby target, for a 5d6 
> EX.  500 gm (or 1 lb.) would do 14d6 EX, 1 kg 15d6, 1 ton 25d6, 1 kiloton 
> 35d6, and 1 megaton 45d6. 
 
Let's reality-check these numbers.  One gram of TNT is roughly equivalent to 
the propellant charge behind a .30 caliber rifle; actually, I think it is a bit 
less.  Therefore, if we just take a blank .30 cartridge and set it off in open 
air, it will do 5d6 to someone a meter away.  Hm...I think not.  Thus, let's 
fix some numbers. 
1)  A human of fairly typical proportions actually will be hit by about 3% of 
the force of the shockwave at one meter (that 1/5 rule has to do with somewhat 
different issues).  For 1/4 kilo of TNT (1 stick dynamite) this works out to 
around 30,000 joules. 
2)  Shockwaves aren't actually all that efficient at delivering energy into 
someone; figure its roughly equivalent to hitting water.  A three meter fall 
into water is fairly painful if you hit badly, quite possibly capable of 
stunning an average person, so calling this 3d6N or 4d6N is about right.  For 
an 80 kilogram man this is around 2400 joules.  30,000 joules is about +3.5 
damage classes relative to this, so calling a stick of dynamite 7d6N sounds 
about right, which is about 6d6 less than your numbers.  I think I've usually 
set a kilo of high explosives at 10d6N, which is slightly higher, but 15d6 is 
quite a bit out of line. 
 
> To get even more realistic with explosives, the damage dice should not 
> drop off as rapidly as with the basic Explosion Advantage.  For persons in 
> the open, the minimum safe distance in meters is 100 * the cube-root of 
> the weight of the TNT in pounds.  So for just 1 pound, this recommended 
> distance is 100 meters.  For 500 pounds, 800 meters.  Treating explosives 
> as dropping of by -1 DC per 3" or 4" distance gives a more threateningly 
> realistic blast radius. 
 
Hm...this definition sounds like 'distance at which you cannot possibly be 
hurt, even if you get really really unlucky'.  My traditional answer to area 
effect for explosions was -1/hex out to 4 hexes, and beyond that use (-4 + 
range penalty).  This is actually a bit off, due to the way shockwaves 
propagate in air; its closer to -3d6 per doubling in range than -2d6. 
 
> Fragmentation bombs involve something more.  They do damage both from the 
> concussive blast of the charge and from the fragments or shrapnel sent 
> flying at great speed.  I would treat that as an autofire RKA explosion 
> linked to the explosive charge, to represent the multiple fragments that 
> may strike every target within the blast radius.  Typical fragmentation 
> grenades might be a 10d6 or 11d6 EX, -1 DC per 3," with a 1-1/2d6 or 2d6 
> autofire RKA EX, -1 DC per 2", linked to it. 
Shrapnel generally has lower penetration than a pistol round.  Try 1d6, but 
instead of reducing damage with range, give shrapnel an activation roll (maybe 
about 14- at 1 meter) which is reduced by range. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:03:30 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
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> You may want to mention something about devices that aren't entirely 
> standard, but are pretty frequent and minor options. It probably 
> wouldn't be too unbalancing to give tape decks or CD players for no point 
> cost, though I'd be inclined to charge for a cellular phone. 
 
 
	Hmm.  I allow them for free for characters, so I don't see why I'd 
charge for vehicles. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
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From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com> 
Subject: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:45:54 CST 
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Oh - don't forget about "extra speakers" (sound images, or a cosmetic 
change enviornment) - a guy we used to game with liked mounting extra 
speakers on his battle suits and going into combat with the theme from 
2001 playing LOUDLY.   
 
Fortunately, the GM made him the target of much of the opposition, on 
the grounds of good taste.  Still, for the bad guy who wants to color 
his vehicle with the confederate flag and play that horn thing from  
"the Dukes of Hazzard"... 
 
 
DonM. 
-- 
========================================================================= 
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist         dmckinne@cmi.csc.com = 
= International Telecommunications Data Systems          (217) 239-8365 = 
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                          (217) 351-8250 = 
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 = 
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org    (217) 469-9917 =  
========================================================================= 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:20:54 -0800 (PST) 
From: Duane Morris <duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
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On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> At 09:50 AM 1/13/98 -0800, Duane Morris wrote: 
> >On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> >>    Air Vehicles: 
> > 
> >Don't forget the emergency beacon, and some sort of eidetic memory <the 
> >various black boxes> and a trim indicator. 
>  
>    As to the first two, I'm of a mind that these should be paid for, though 
> they are cheap and it shouldn't be too much of a quibble.  On the other 
> hand, I'm not fully convinced of it. 
 
Well, AFAIK the emergency beacon is something that is required on all 
aircraft, but then I could be wrong.. (: 
 
>    As to the trim indicator... pardon my ignorance, but what is it? 
 
I think I got the terminology right, but what I was refering to was an 
indicator of the angle between the wing position and horizontal <I forget 
if that is yaw, roll or pitch..> (: 
 
Duane. 
 
------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Duane Morris <duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca>   Dept. of Technical Services 
Faculty of Pure and Applied Science        Petrie Science Stores 
York University, North York, Ontario  M3J 1P3, CANADA 
Voice: (416) 736-5244; Fax: (416) 736-5516 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:27:28 EST 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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<< I need help from those who are better informed than I about what equipment 
should be considered "standard" for all vehicles of various types. >> 
<<    Air Vehicles: >> 
<< Radar (360 degree, non-Discriminatory, non-Targeting) >> 
 
  360 degree radar is not, I don't believe, standard on all aircraft. For 
starters, there are a few small planes that do not have radar. Those aside, 
the radar I'm thinking of (such as on airliners and fighters) is directional; 
the coverage can be altered (e.g., 60 degree cone to 180 degree front, etc.) 
but I don't think it has 360 coverage. That's a mighty powerful radar blowin' 
through the pilot, mate! ;) True, certain aircraft, like the AWACS and the 
Orion, would have 360 degree radar, but this wouldn't be "EveryVeh" equipment, 
IMO. 
 
<<   Ground Vehicles:>> 
<< Air Conditioning (except motorcycles) >> 
 
  This may sound really nitpicky, but I wouldn't list AC as EV equipment for 
ground vehicles. For one thing, it's not part of most "stock" cars as they 
roll off the line (i.e., it costs more to buy one with AC <G>). Consider, 
also, the older tanks, dragsters, and the like. No AC in them... 
 
<< Cigarette Lighter >> 
 
  My car didn't have a cig lighter in it, and neither did my Hummvee in Desert 
Storm. ;) Not EV equipment, IMO. 
 
<< Dome Light >> 
 
  Ditto. No dome lights in dragsters, hummers... 
 
<< Engine Thermometer >> 
 
  Thermostat 
 
<< Locks for all doors / Lock for the ignition / Lock for the trunk >> 
 
  FYI; the military version hummer has none of these. 
 
<< Radio (AM/FM) >> 
 
  Plenty of ground vehicles have no radio. If they want it, let them buy it. 
;) 
 
<< Seat Belts & Air Bag >> 
 
  A hummer with airbags would be nice... Even the manufacturers are making 
airbags optional now. ;) Not worth making it EV equipment, IMO. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com> 
Subject: Fifth Edition (idea we can ALL help with) 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:38:02 CST 
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X-UID: 32 
 
OK: 
 
I'd like to make a suggestion that I think all of us can work on. 
Let's take the existing edition of the rules, and build a set of 
examples for each power, and fit into them the more "difficult to  
understand" constructions.  This includes examples of contradicting 
intrepretations, so we'd have (at least) two examples of linked,  
for example. 
 
 
DonM. 
 
-- 
========================================================================= 
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist         dmckinne@cmi.csc.com = 
= International Telecommunications Data Systems          (217) 239-8365 = 
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                          (217) 351-8250 = 
= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 = 
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org    (217) 469-9917 =  
========================================================================= 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Explosives 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 13 Jan 1998 17:52:00 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "AJ" == Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> writes: 
 
AJ> Therefore, if we just take a blank .30 cartridge and set it off in open 
AJ> air, it will do 5d6 to someone a meter away.  Hm...I think not. 
 
Um... I suggest you go talk to Brandon Lee about that comment.  Oh, wait, 
he's dead due to a blank fired at almost point-blank range into his head. 
Admittedly, the range was probably a bit closer, but the shell in question 
was less powerful. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNLvwC56VRH7BJMxHAQFtZgP/akSSsttJc8W7xIccISLmwTycGyuy24jz 
B6dvS3k+gck2iNB9CbiJWqaGGRbstMvIqi1YdMPoB4bM01IYo/o5OoRC7w0RcvZ7 
MrdGwycQo0daPYM74clbIcRqWdlnKG/B3/duf4KQ0j6ajoHBRM62J50pO06XOx6Z 
xueAoIMZaoQ= 
=XcMy 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
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From: Miq Millman <miq@teleport.com> 
Subject: Re: Explosives 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:04:07 -0800 (PST) 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
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Stainless Steel Rat says: 
> AJ> air, it will do 5d6 to someone a meter away.  Hm...I think not. 
>  
> Um... I suggest you go talk to Brandon Lee about that comment.  Oh, wait, 
> he's dead due to a blank fired at almost point-blank range into his head. 
> Admittedly, the range was probably a bit closer, but the shell in question 
> was less powerful. 
 
Actually, Brandon Lee was killed from a stomace wound.   He was hit by a  
slug that was part of a "show round", a lead bullet attached to an empty 
case with no powder or detonator.  The slug caught in the chamber of the 
pistol when it was being unloaded and blanks were inserted.  So instead of 
a "harmless" blank, the pistol now had a lead slug infront of a live 
cartridge.  Pretty similar to a black powder gun, which is rather deadly. 
 
The blank in the temple fellow, was a different actor and happened a number 
of years ago.  I can't recall the fellow's name, but he played Boz or Bog 
on that time traveling show with the kid and the nifty pocket watch. 
 
One of my wife's friends was/is married to the prop-master from the Crow 
movie, so I know about the incident sort of first hand. 
 
 
--  
__ 
Miq Millman   miq@teleport.com   
Tualatin, OR 
 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:46:18 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 34 
 
At 05:27 PM 1/13/98 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< I need help from those who are better informed than I about what equipment 
>should be considered "standard" for all vehicles of various types. >> 
><<    Air Vehicles: >> 
><< Radar (360 degree, non-Discriminatory, non-Targeting) >> 
> 
>  360 degree radar is not, I don't believe, standard on all aircraft. For 
>starters, there are a few small planes that do not have radar. Those aside, 
>the radar I'm thinking of (such as on airliners and fighters) is directional; 
>the coverage can be altered (e.g., 60 degree cone to 180 degree front, etc.) 
>but I don't think it has 360 coverage. That's a mighty powerful radar blowin' 
>through the pilot, mate! ;) True, certain aircraft, like the AWACS and the 
>Orion, would have 360 degree radar, but this wouldn't be "EveryVeh" 
equipment, 
>IMO. 
 
   Okay, I'll scratch the 360 degree (I was visualizing the control tower 
screens anyway); a Physical Limitation can be taken for not having it. 
   Or do you think this should be a "pay the points" thing? 
 
><<   Ground Vehicles:>> 
><< Air Conditioning (except motorcycles) >> 
> 
>  This may sound really nitpicky, but I wouldn't list AC as EV equipment for 
>ground vehicles. For one thing, it's not part of most "stock" cars as they 
>roll off the line (i.e., it costs more to buy one with AC <G>). Consider, 
>also, the older tanks, dragsters, and the like. No AC in them... 
 
   It's just common enough that I think I'd include it as the standard. 
Those that don't have it can, as above, get points back. 
 
><< Cigarette Lighter >> 
> 
>  My car didn't have a cig lighter in it, and neither did my Hummvee in 
Desert 
>Storm. ;) Not EV equipment, IMO. 
> 
><< Dome Light >> 
> 
>  Ditto. No dome lights in dragsters, hummers... 
 
   Ditto my above comment for both. 
 
><< Engine Thermometer >> 
> 
>  Thermostat 
 
   Thermo*stat*?  Maybe I gotta check my dictionary, but that seems kinda 
odd.... 
 
><< Locks for all doors / Lock for the ignition / Lock for the trunk >> 
> 
>  FYI; the military version hummer has none of these. 
> 
><< Radio (AM/FM) >> 
> 
>  Plenty of ground vehicles have no radio. If they want it, let them buy it. 
>;) 
 
   On these two, echo my above sentiment. 
 
><< Seat Belts & Air Bag >> 
> 
>  A hummer with airbags would be nice... Even the manufacturers are making 
>airbags optional now. ;) Not worth making it EV equipment, IMO. 
 
   Yeah, you're right here; they're uncommon enough that I think I'll 
strike the bags and let them be a "pay the points" item.  (Then I gotta 
figure out how to build them... I'm thinking of a Limited sort of Knockback 
Resistance.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org> 
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> 
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 00:39:44 +0000 
Subject: Re: Meta-Hero 
Priority: normal 
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So Sayeth Opal <Opal@october.com&> 
 
>  s > Its a supplement called Meta-Hero, and is an explanation of  
>  s > Rules work. (Not, you note, how the system works, but how the rules  
>  s > system work.) The intent is to boil the entire system down to a bare  
>  s > meta-rules and meta-mechanics from which the entire rules system was  
>  s > together. This would:  
 
> Sounds interesting...  
 
>  s > 1) show up all of the current inconsistencies in the rules  
>  s > 2) show what logical gaps exist in the rules  
>  s > 3) give guidelines for fixing 1) and filling 2)  
>  s > 4) give one a set of guidelines for extending the  
>  s > rules with new abilities  
>  s >    and powers, while making sure that these additions were in harmony.  
>  s >  
>   
> You realize that you're basicly reverse-engineering George McDonalds  
> brain, right.  :) :)  
 
Yeah, I guess so. Actually, so a certain extent I'm reverse engineering the  
team that did the 4th edition rules. They were the first set of rules that I  
thought were consistant enough to make reverse engineering worth-while. 
 
>  s > As such, I'm finding a number of discussions on this list,  
>  s > STR costs, the Incomplete Character rules, and the nuances  
>  s > be very interesting and relevant to the project. And, of course, the  
>  s > of how to interpret things like Damage Classes and rolled body is  
>  s > (BTW, I know there isn't much of a market for such a thing, but I  
>  s > analysis will greatly help my own worldbuilding efforts,  
>  s > since I so often have  
>  s > to tweak rules to get the results I want.)  
>   
> Yep, that's a suplement that would sepparate the casual role-players  
> from the complete fanatics....  
 
'Fraid so. I personally know about 5 people who would buy one, out of a pool of  
some 15 to 20 gamers. 
 
> I'd love to see it.  :)  
>   
> Seriously, if you ever make serious progress on it, send it to me,  
> I'd be happy to give you some imput.  If you ever finish it, be  
> sure to put it on the web (if you don't have a page we could U/L  
> it to Red October).  
 
I do have a web-site, but it currently sucks. When I've got it cleaned up, it  
should have a gaming section where I'll eventually publish the Meta-hero stuff.  
When that happens I'll be sure to post the URL to this list. After all, where  
else am I going to find a bunch of fanatics to help me proof the thing?  
 
--  
 Stirling Westrup  |  Use of the Internet by this poster 
 sti@cam.org       |  is not to be construed as a tacit 
                   |  endorsement of Western Technological 
                   |  Civilization or its appurtenances. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net> 
Subject: Re: Fifth Edition (idea we can ALL help with) 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:45:39 -0600 
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-----Original Message----- 
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com> 
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org> 
Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 4:48 PM 
Subject: Fifth Edition (idea we can ALL help with) 
 
 
>OK: 
> 
>I'd like to make a suggestion that I think all of us can work on. 
>Let's take the existing edition of the rules, and build a set of 
>examples for each power, and fit into them the more "difficult to 
>understand" constructions.  This includes examples of contradicting 
>intrepretations, so we'd have (at least) two examples of linked, 
>for example. 
This isn't a bad idea. Why don't we try making a few ECs and MP combinations 
to simulate comun sets of powers that require them (weather control for 
example) and let people vote on the best results. Just and idea. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Reply-To: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com> 
From: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com> 
Subject: Using TUSM 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 21:05:21 -0500 
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I'd like to know how people have adapted the information in The Ultimate 
Super Mage into their campaigns, especially those who don't run their games 
in the Champions Universe. 
 
I'm interested not only in the different magic styles, but also the 
dimension information. 
 
 
Lisa Hartjes 
beren@unforgettable.com 
Home:  http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/daniken/79 
"You met these things before.  What did you do?" 
<said with a grin>"I died." 
(Alien Resurrection) 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org> 
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> 
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 02:09:52 +0000 
Subject: Re: more thoughts on bleeding 
Priority: normal 
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So Sayeth Stephen McGinness <smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk&> 
 
> At 06:23 PM 6/1/98 -0800, mcallahan@com.home wrote: 
> >The revised bleeding numbers are 
> >1d6 bleeding stops on a 1 
> >2d6 bleeding stops on a 2-3 
> >3d6 bleeding stops on a 3-5 
> >4d6 bleeding stops on a 4-7 
> >5d6 bleeding stops on a 5-9 
> >6d6 bleeding stops on a 6-11 
>  
> This is seductive, I want to do a probability check on these numbers but  
> haven't really got the time to do it properly.  As far as I can see just now  
> there is an decreasing probability of stopping bleeding, is this what you want?? 
>  
> For 1d6 you have a 1 in 6 chance to stop bleeding (~17%) 
> For 2d6 you have a 1 in 12 chance to stop bleeding (8.5%) 
> For 3d6 you have a 1 in 36 chance to stop bleeding (~3%) 
 
In case folks find it useful, I calculated an <N>D6 probability table for N  
from 1 to 12 a few years ago. Here it is: 
 
CUMULATIVE DICE PROBABILITIES TO 4 DECIMAL PLACES 
------------------------------------------------- 
 
DICE	 ROLL	 PROB.	   DICE	    ROLL    PROB.     DICE     ROLL    PROB. 
----	-----	------	   ----	   -----   ------     ----    -----   ------ 
 1D6	  1	0.1667	    8D6	     8	   0.0000     11D6     11     0.0000 
 1D6	 1- 2	0.3333	    8D6	    8- 9   0.0000     11D6    11-12   0.0000 
 1D6	 1- 3	0.5000	    8D6	    8-10   0.0000     11D6    11-13   0.0000 
 1D6	 1- 4	0.6667	    8D6	    8-11   0.0001     11D6    11-14   0.0000 
 1D6	 1- 5	0.8333	    8D6	    8-12   0.0003     11D6    11-15   0.0000 
 1D6	 1- 6	1.0000	    8D6	    8-13   0.0008     11D6    11-16   0.0000 
			    8D6	    8-14   0.0018     11D6    11-17   0.0000 
 2D6	  2	0.0278	    8D6	    8-15   0.0038     11D6    11-18   0.0001 
 2D6	 2- 3	0.0833	    8D6	    8-16   0.0074     11D6    11-19   0.0002 
 2D6	 2- 4	0.1667	    8D6	    8-17   0.0137     11D6    11-20   0.0005 
 2D6	 2- 5	0.2778	    8D6	    8-18   0.0237     11D6    11-21   0.0009 
 2D6	 2- 6	0.4167	    8D6	    8-19   0.0389     11D6    11-22   0.0018 
 2D6	 2- 7	0.5833	    8D6	    8-20   0.0607     11D6    11-23   0.0034 
 2D6	 2- 8	0.7222	    8D6	    8-21   0.0907     11D6    11-24   0.0059 
 2D6	 2- 9	0.8333	    8D6	    8-22   0.1298     11D6    11-25   0.0100 
 2D6	 2-10	0.9167	    8D6	    8-23   0.1789     11D6    11-26   0.0163 
 2D6	 2-11	0.9722	    8D6	    8-24   0.2377     11D6    11-27   0.0254 
 2D6	 2-12	1.0000	    8D6	    8-25   0.3054     11D6    11-28   0.0385 
			    8D6	    8-26   0.3802     11D6    11-29   0.0562 
 3D6	  3	0.0046	    8D6	    8-27   0.4595     11D6    11-30   0.0797 
 3D6	 3- 4	0.0185	    8D6	    8-28   0.5405     11D6    11-31   0.1097 
 3D6	 3- 5	0.0463	    8D6	    8-29   0.6198     11D6    11-32   0.1467 
 3D6	 3- 6	0.0926	    8D6	    8-30   0.6946     11D6    11-33   0.1910 
 3D6	 3- 7	0.1620	    8D6	    8-31   0.7623     11D6    11-34   0.2424 
 3D6	 3- 8	0.2593	    8D6	    8-32   0.8211     11D6    11-35   0.3004 
 3D6	 3- 9	0.3750	    8D6	    8-33   0.8702     11D6    11-36   0.3637 
 3D6	 3-10	0.5000	    8D6	    8-34   0.9093     11D6    11-37   0.4308 
 3D6	 3-11	0.6250	    8D6	    8-35   0.9393     11D6    11-38   0.5000 
 3D6	 3-12	0.7407	    8D6	    8-36   0.9611     11D6    11-39   0.5692 
 3D6	 3-13	0.8380	    8D6	    8-37   0.9763     11D6    11-40   0.6363 
 3D6	 3-14	0.9074	    8D6	    8-38   0.9863     11D6    11-41   0.6996 
 3D6	 3-15	0.9537	    8D6	    8-39   0.9926     11D6    11-42   0.7576 
 3D6	 3-16	0.9815	    8D6	    8-40   0.9962     11D6    11-43   0.8090 
 3D6	 3-17	0.9954	    8D6	    8-41   0.9982     11D6    11-44   0.8533 
 3D6	 3-18	1.0000	    8D6	    8-42   0.9992     11D6    11-45   0.8903 
			    8D6	    8-43   0.9997     11D6    11-46   0.9203 
 4D6	  4	0.0008	    8D6	    8-44   0.9999     11D6    11-47   0.9438 
 4D6	 4- 5	0.0039	    8D6	    8-45   1.0000     11D6    11-48   0.9615 
 4D6	 4- 6	0.0116	    8D6	    8-46   1.0000     11D6    11-49   0.9746 
 4D6	 4- 7	0.0270	    8D6	    8-47   1.0000     11D6    11-50   0.9837 
 4D6	 4- 8	0.0540	    8D6	    8-48   1.0000     11D6    11-51   0.9900 
 4D6	 4- 9	0.0972				      11D6    11-52   0.9941 
 4D6	 4-10	0.1590	    9D6	     9	   0.0000     11D6    11-53   0.9966 
 4D6	 4-11	0.2392	    9D6	    9-10   0.0000     11D6    11-54   0.9982 
 4D6	 4-12	0.3356	    9D6	    9-11   0.0000     11D6    11-55   0.9991 
 4D6	 4-13	0.4437	    9D6	    9-12   0.0000     11D6    11-56   0.9995 
 4D6	 4-14	0.5563	    9D6	    9-13   0.0001     11D6    11-57   0.9998 
 4D6	 4-15	0.6644	    9D6	    9-14   0.0002     11D6    11-58   0.9999 
 4D6	 4-16	0.7608	    9D6	    9-15   0.0005     11D6    11-59   1.0000 
 4D6	 4-17	0.8410	    9D6	    9-16   0.0011     11D6    11-60   1.0000 
 4D6	 4-18	0.9028	    9D6	    9-17   0.0024     11D6    11-61   1.0000 
 4D6	 4-19	0.9460	    9D6	    9-18   0.0046     11D6    11-62   1.0000 
 4D6	 4-20	0.9730	    9D6	    9-19   0.0085     11D6    11-63   1.0000 
 4D6	 4-21	0.9884	    9D6	    9-20   0.0149     11D6    11-64   1.0000 
 4D6	 4-22	0.9961	    9D6	    9-21   0.0247     11D6    11-65   1.0000 
 4D6	 4-23	0.9992	    9D6	    9-22   0.0392     11D6    11-66   1.0000 
 4D6	 4-24	1.0000	    9D6	    9-23   0.0596 
			    9D6	    9-24   0.0871     12D6     12     0.0000 
 5D6	  5	0.0001	    9D6	    9-25   0.1228     12D6    12-13   0.0000 
 5D6	 5- 6	0.0008	    9D6	    9-26   0.1672     12D6    12-14   0.0000 
 5D6	 5- 7	0.0027	    9D6	    9-27   0.2204     12D6    12-15   0.0000 
 5D6	 5- 8	0.0072	    9D6	    9-28   0.2819     12D6    12-16   0.0000 
 5D6	 5- 9	0.0162	    9D6	    9-29   0.3504     12D6    12-17   0.0000 
 5D6	 5-10	0.0324	    9D6	    9-30   0.4239     12D6    12-18   0.0000 
 5D6	 5-11	0.0588	    9D6	    9-31   0.5000     12D6    12-19   0.0000 
 5D6	 5-12	0.0980	    9D6	    9-32   0.5761     12D6    12-20   0.0001 
 5D6	 5-13	0.1520	    9D6	    9-33   0.6496     12D6    12-21   0.0001 
 5D6	 5-14	0.2215	    9D6	    9-34   0.7181     12D6    12-22   0.0003 
 5D6	 5-15	0.3052	    9D6	    9-35   0.7796     12D6    12-23   0.0006 
 5D6	 5-16	0.3997	    9D6	    9-36   0.8328     12D6    12-24   0.0011 
 5D6	 5-17	0.5000	    9D6	    9-37   0.8772     12D6    12-25   0.0021 
 5D6	 5-18	0.6003	    9D6	    9-38   0.9129     12D6    12-26   0.0037 
 5D6	 5-19	0.6948	    9D6	    9-39   0.9404     12D6    12-27   0.0064 
 5D6	 5-20	0.7785	    9D6	    9-40   0.9608     12D6    12-28   0.0105 
 5D6	 5-21	0.8480	    9D6	    9-41   0.9753     12D6    12-29   0.0166 
 5D6	 5-22	0.9020	    9D6	    9-42   0.9851     12D6    12-30   0.0254 
 5D6	 5-23	0.9412	    9D6	    9-43   0.9915     12D6    12-31   0.0377 
 5D6	 5-24	0.9676	    9D6	    9-44   0.9954     12D6    12-32   0.0543 
 5D6	 5-25	0.9838	    9D6	    9-45   0.9976     12D6    12-33   0.0760 
 5D6	 5-26	0.9928	    9D6	    9-46   0.9989     12D6    12-34   0.1036 
 5D6	 5-27	0.9973	    9D6	    9-47   0.9995     12D6    12-35   0.1376 
 5D6	 5-28	0.9992	    9D6	    9-48   0.9998     12D6    12-36   0.1783 
 5D6	 5-29	0.9999	    9D6	    9-49   0.9999     12D6    12-37   0.2256 
 5D6	 5-30	1.0000	    9D6	    9-50   1.0000     12D6    12-38   0.2792 
			    9D6	    9-51   1.0000     12D6    12-39   0.3381 
 6D6	  6	0.0000	    9D6	    9-52   1.0000     12D6    12-40   0.4011 
 6D6	 6- 7	0.0002	    9D6	    9-53   1.0000     12D6    12-41   0.4667 
 6D6	 6- 8	0.0006	    9D6	    9-54   1.0000     12D6    12-42   0.5333 
 6D6	 6- 9	0.0018				      12D6    12-43   0.5989 
 6D6	 6-10	0.0045	   10D6	    10	   0.0000     12D6    12-44   0.6619 
 6D6	 6-11	0.0099	   10D6	   10-11   0.0000     12D6    12-45   0.7208 
 6D6	 6-12	0.0197	   10D6	   10-12   0.0000     12D6    12-46   0.7744 
 6D6	 6-13	0.0359	   10D6	   10-13   0.0000     12D6    12-47   0.8217 
 6D6	 6-14	0.0608	   10D6	   10-14   0.0000     12D6    12-48   0.8624 
 6D6	 6-15	0.0965	   10D6	   10-15   0.0000     12D6    12-49   0.8964 
 6D6	 6-16	0.1446	   10D6	   10-16   0.0001     12D6    12-50   0.9240 
 6D6	 6-17	0.2058	   10D6	   10-17   0.0003     12D6    12-51   0.9457 
 6D6	 6-18	0.2794	   10D6	   10-18   0.0007     12D6    12-52   0.9623 
 6D6	 6-19	0.3631	   10D6	   10-19   0.0015     12D6    12-53   0.9746 
 6D6	 6-20	0.4536	   10D6	   10-20   0.0029     12D6    12-54   0.9834 
 6D6	 6-21	0.5464	   10D6	   10-21   0.0053     12D6    12-55   0.9895 
 6D6	 6-22	0.6369	   10D6	   10-22   0.0094     12D6    12-56   0.9936 
 6D6	 6-23	0.7206	   10D6	   10-23   0.0157     12D6    12-57   0.9963 
 6D6	 6-24	0.7942	   10D6	   10-24   0.0252     12D6    12-58   0.9979 
 6D6	 6-25	0.8554	   10D6	   10-25   0.0390     12D6    12-59   0.9989 
 6D6	 6-26	0.9035	   10D6	   10-26   0.0580     12D6    12-60   0.9994 
 6D6	 6-27	0.9392	   10D6	   10-27   0.0834     12D6    12-61   0.9997 
 6D6	 6-28	0.9641	   10D6	   10-28   0.1160     12D6    12-62   0.9999 
 6D6	 6-29	0.9803	   10D6	   10-29   0.1565     12D6    12-63   0.9999 
 6D6	 6-30	0.9901	   10D6	   10-30   0.2050     12D6    12-64   1.0000 
 6D6	 6-31	0.9955	   10D6	   10-31   0.2611     12D6    12-65   1.0000 
 6D6	 6-32	0.9982	   10D6	   10-32   0.3240     12D6    12-66   1.0000 
 6D6	 6-33	0.9994	   10D6	   10-33   0.3921     12D6    12-67   1.0000 
 6D6	 6-34	0.9998	   10D6	   10-34   0.4637     12D6    12-68   1.0000 
 6D6	 6-35	1.0000	   10D6	   10-35   0.5363     12D6    12-69   1.0000 
 6D6	 6-36	1.0000	   10D6	   10-36   0.6079     12D6    12-70   1.0000 
			   10D6	   10-37   0.6760     12D6    12-71   1.0000 
 7D6	  7	0.0000	   10D6	   10-38   0.7389     12D6    12-72   1.0000 
 7D6	 7- 8	0.0000	   10D6	   10-39   0.7950 
 7D6	 7- 9	0.0001	   10D6	   10-40   0.8435 
 7D6	 7-10	0.0004	   10D6	   10-41   0.8840 
 7D6	 7-11	0.0012	   10D6	   10-42   0.9166 
 7D6	 7-12	0.0028	   10D6	   10-43   0.9420 
 7D6	 7-13	0.0061	   10D6	   10-44   0.9610 
 7D6	 7-14	0.0121	   10D6	   10-45   0.9748 
 7D6	 7-15	0.0221	   10D6	   10-46   0.9843 
 7D6	 7-16	0.0379	   10D6	   10-47   0.9906 
 7D6	 7-17	0.0612	   10D6	   10-48   0.9947 
 7D6	 7-18	0.0939	   10D6	   10-49   0.9971 
 7D6	 7-19	0.1372	   10D6	   10-50   0.9985 
 7D6	 7-20	0.1917	   10D6	   10-51   0.9993 
 7D6	 7-21	0.2572	   10D6	   10-52   0.9997 
 7D6	 7-22	0.3322	   10D6	   10-53   0.9999 
 7D6	 7-23	0.4142	   10D6	   10-54   1.0000 
 7D6	 7-24	0.5000	   10D6	   10-55   1.0000 
 7D6	 7-25	0.5858	   10D6	   10-56   1.0000 
 7D6	 7-26	0.6678	   10D6	   10-57   1.0000 
 7D6	 7-27	0.7428	   10D6	   10-58   1.0000 
 7D6	 7-28	0.8083	   10D6	   10-59   1.0000 
 7D6	 7-29	0.8628	   10D6	   10-60   1.0000 
 7D6	 7-30	0.9061 
 7D6	 7-31	0.9388 
 7D6	 7-32	0.9621 
 7D6	 7-33	0.9779 
 7D6	 7-34	0.9879 
 7D6	 7-35	0.9939 
 7D6	 7-36	0.9972 
 7D6	 7-37	0.9988 
 7D6	 7-38	0.9996 
 7D6	 7-39	0.9999 
 7D6	 7-40	1.0000 
 7D6	 7-41	1.0000 
 7D6	 7-42	1.0000 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
--  
 Stirling Westrup  |  Use of the Internet by this poster 
 sti@cam.org       |  is not to be construed as a tacit 
                   |  endorsement of Western Technological 
                   |  Civilization or its appurtenances. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org> 
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> 
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 02:24:25 +0000 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 60 
 
So Sayeth Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com&> 
 
> >By the way, Bruce Lee was an 18/4 human being (or at least he looked it on 
> >screen). 
>  
>    I'd call him more like 23/6. 
>    I saw him on the Mike Douglas Show when he was first bringing movies to 
> the United States, shortly before the Green Hornet.  After a clip of some 
> martial arts fighting where he held off a ring of about 12 guys, Mike asked 
> him if he was sped up for the camera; Bruce said that the producers usually 
> had to slow him down to make it look realistic. 
>    Just a minor anecdote.... 
 
I have an aquaintance who is a martial artist and a martial arts choreagrapher  
for the movies. (He claims, BTW that the two fields have almost nothing in  
common). He's told me that ALL fight scenes take place at about 1/4 realistic  
speed, since the average audience does not have the training to watch and  
understand faster fights. A 'fast' character will sometimes go as high  
as 1/2 speed to emphasize how fast he is. In shakespeares day, apparantly, most  
of the audience was expected to know how to fence, or at least would know  
enough of the salient points to watch a sword fight at close to normal speed. 
 
So, its hardly surprising that Bruce Lee had to go slow in the movies... 
 
OB HEROSYS: 
 
IMHO the reason that no one uses the 'standard' 2 speed for normals is that the  
next speed increment gives 1.5 times the number of attacks. That is a  
sufficiently huge disad in Hero Sys that no one wants it. If the formula for  
speed was something like 3+(Dex/10), with a human max of 6, then a marginally  
faster character would have 1.2 times the attacks per turn, and a marginally  
slower-than-average character would be livable. Far fewer characters would then  
spend the points for an extra 4 levels of speed. 
--  
 Stirling Westrup  |  Use of the Internet by this poster 
 sti@cam.org       |  is not to be construed as a tacit 
                   |  endorsement of Western Technological 
                   |  Civilization or its appurtenances. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:10:54 -0800 
From: mcallahan <mcallahan@home.com> 
Reply-To: mcallahan@home.com 
Subject: Re: Explosives 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 36 
 
>Um... I suggest you go talk to Brandon Lee about that comment.  Oh, wait, 
>he's dead due to a blank fired at almost point-blank range into his head. 
>Admittedly, the range was probably a bit closer, but the shell in question 
>was less powerful. 
 
No, Brandon Lee is dead because of the following complex chain of 
events. 
1. Movie director wants a sceen where the camera can film down the 
barrel of the gun and see the bullet. 
2. prop guy takes a live bullet and removes the slug, dumps the powder 
and remounts the bullet. 
3. actor pulls the trigger, the primer charge (the one at the back of 
the shell that ignites the powder) pushes the bullet into the barrel of 
the gun (but not out of the barrel) 
4. the gun is loaded with blank shells (not low power blanks, but real 
bullets that have had the slug revoved and the case sealed with cardbord 
(because it was cheeper than buying "real" blanks). 
5 the gun was fired again, the charge of the blank propelling the first 
slug into Brandon Lee. 
 
John Eric Hexsum (not sure of the spelling on that) was killed by a 
blank round, he was fooling around on set put the barrel of the gun to 
his head and pulled the trigger.  
At point plank range the ENTIRE force of the explosion was applied to 
his head. 
As distance from the explosion doubles the force of the explosion that 
impacts an object is reduced by its cube root. At one meter the force of 
a blank round going off is roughly compareable to a strong breeze, 
unless you get hit by the cardboard being propelled by the explosion you 
will barely feel it (and the cardboard wouln't cdo that much damage 
because its mass to surface area is so low it will rapidly lose velocity 
to air resistance. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:19:07 -0500 (EST) 
From: John Fabian Ceballos <ceballos@eecs.umich.edu> 
cc: John EDS email <John_Ceballos@xn.xerox.com> 
Subject: subscribe 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 38 
 
 
Please put me back on this list. Thanks! 
 
-- 
John Fabian Ceballos 
ceballos@eecs.umich.edu 
http://www.eecs.umich.edu/~ceballos 
PGP fingerprint: 5D D1 50 7E 0B C7 BA 5A  A3 5B 60 F4 6A 1A 25 04 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 13 Jan 98 19:55:00 -0800 
Subject: Re: [5th ed] Wishlist pa 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 48 
 
 > From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com>  
 > >   In fact, there ARE Adjustment Power effects that are canon by the  
 > >BBB.  I know it may seem paltry to those in the 'point crock' camp,  
 > >that nifty little adjustment power advantage of "affects all powers  
 > >give sfx" applies EXACTLY in this instance.  If the attack is bought  
  
 > Yes, but this is a consequence of the Power (which had to buy a +2  
 > Advantage  
 > for the privilege), not of the EC.  I could design the character  
 > without the  
 > EC and the same consequence would still follow.  
 > --  
  
Not exactly.  You could design a character without an EC who has  
the same powers with different special F/X and the consequence  
would not follow.  With EC you do not have that option.  
  
Minor quibble, but the "affects all powers of given F/X" advantage  
on adjustment powers still hardly justifies the cost break on EC...  
at least not by itself.  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 13 Jan 98 20:07:02 -0800 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 49 
 
 t > From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>  
 t >  
 t > > I have a question for you now...  Have you really seen it to be true  
 t > > that Bricks (PC Bricks, who are built for concept) are *really* more  
 t > > powerful in head to head combat with other character types?  
 t >  
 t > They are, of course, but I don't see the point in discussing it. When  
 t > mathematical evidence is available, anecdotal evidence is weak to the  
 t > point of being completely irrelevant.  
 t > ---  
  
Well, there's anecdotal, and there imperical (sp?).  "I ran a game  
with a brick and there was no problem" isn't very meaningful, neither  
is "I ran this game and the brick was really gross"  OTOH, "I've been  
playing Champions for 15 years, played in multiple groups, and at  
Conventions, and built hundreds of characters, and never once seen  
evidence that the cost of STR makes Bricks overpowered" is a bit more  
legitimate, though still hardly proof.  
  
As for the mathematical evidence, it's based on the assumption that  
1 point of any given characteristic or power is always exactly as  
desireable as 1 point of any other... which, in spite of Hero being  
a point-based system, is simply not true.  
  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:08:09 EST 
Subject: Re: Explosives 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 40 
 
<< Um... I suggest you go talk to Brandon Lee about that comment.  Oh, wait, 
he's dead due to a blank fired at almost point-blank range into his head. 
Admittedly, the range was probably a bit closer, but the shell in question was 
less powerful. >> 
 
  Brandon Lee was killed by a *projectile*, not by gases. I had heard that the 
gun was not safety checked and that an actual .44 round hit him (in the torso, 
not the head; you're thinking of that actort from "Voyagers"). As far as 
blanks go, they do fire a small paper or cloth wad, so they are not entirely 
"safe" to fire at close range by any means. And by "pojectiles" I mean both 
wads and lead. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:11:58 EST 
Subject: Re: Explosives 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 39 
 
<< The slug caught in the chamber of the pistol when it was being unloaded and 
blanks were inserted.  So instead of a "harmless" blank, the pistol now had a 
lead slug infront of a live cartridge. >> 
 
  Sounds like a cover story. Anyone who knows about the way a handgun 
(revolver *or* semi-auto) functions knows what I'm referring to. The 
difference in pressure/force between the blank and a "real" round is 
substantial. I doubt a blank round could project a lead projectile out the 
barrel, through a grocery bag and into a victim. Especially if it was "stuck" 
in the barrel as you noted. Just my opinion, of course, but a skeptical one 
backed by many years of experience working with and handling weapons. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 13 Jan 98 20:18:04 -0800 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 51 
 
 t > From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>  
 t >  
 t > > I did _not_ say Frameworks when I meant Elemental Control. I said  
 t > "all  
 t > > Frameworks", so obviously I was admitting there was more than one.  
 t > > Multipower can easily be a far greater point crock than EC, and VPP  
 t > > can be even worse.  
 t >  
 t > Can you get into situations with Multipower and VPP where reducing the  
 t > level of an ability results in a higher cost? (Or vice-versa) I  
 t > haven't  
 t > been able to find any.  
 t >  
  
Let's see:  
  
40 Multipowr  
 4 u 20" Flight  
14 u 20/20 Force field, 1/2 END  
24 u 12d EB  
--  
82  
  
vs  
  
60 Multipower  
 6 u 30" Flight  
 5 u 20/20 FF, 1/2 END  
 6 u 12d EB  
--  
77  
  
Saves 5 points and gives you and extra 10" flight 'free'  
  
Of course the difference is because the first Multipower is  
(for lack of a better way of putting it) bought inefficiently.  
You can come up with badly-built examples to back up any point -  
there all equally invalid.  
  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 13 Jan 98 20:32:06 -0800 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 44 
 
 f > All Base Characteristics (except PRE and COM) are cheaper than what it  
 f > costs to buy up their various abilities with Figured Characteristics,  
 f > skill levels, and powers. This is realistic, as in real life it is  
 f > these Base Characteristics that are usually exercised in order to  
 f > improve these abilities.  
 f >  
 f > It is obvious from comparing the various characteristics to the cost  
 f > of buying what they do separately that characteristics are _supposed_  
 f > to be more efficient-- they always are. The separate components are  
 f > supposed to cost more than the characteristic. STR merely shows this  
 f > in Figured characteristics, other characteristics show this elsewhere.  
 f >  
 f > Filksinger  
 f > ---  
  
Very good!  In fact, it's part of a broader scheme of 'volume discounts'  
that's inherent in the Hero System.  Look at levels.  Say you have a  
character with some nasty 8-slot attack mulitpower.  (Ignoring the  
efficiencies of a multipower), say you want a +3 OCV with each of  
the attacks.  Do you buy +3 OCV Level for 15 points or +3 OCV  
with each power sepparately for 64 points?  The cheaper option, BTW,  
also gives you a +3 OCV on anything you might have outside the  
Multipower.   What a point crock!  This system is hopelessly broken...  
  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:42:08 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Explosives 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 41 
 
> << The slug caught in the chamber of the pistol when it was being unloaded and 
> blanks were inserted.  So instead of a "harmless" blank, the pistol now had a 
> lead slug infront of a live cartridge. >> 
>  
>   Sounds like a cover story. Anyone who knows about the way a handgun 
> (revolver *or* semi-auto) functions knows what I'm referring to. The 
> difference in pressure/force between the blank and a "real" round is 
> substantial. I doubt a blank round could project a lead projectile out the 
> barrel, through a grocery bag and into a victim. Especially if it was "stuck" 
> in the barrel as you noted. Just my opinion, of course, but a skeptical one 
> backed by many years of experience working with and handling weapons. 
 
This is also the first I've heard of this story.  Most accounts I read 
mentioned nothing about a real lead slug.  But then, there is somethign 
creepy about the whole thing and simularities with one of Bruce Lee's 
movies. 
 
TokyoMark 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 13 Jan 98 20:44:08 -0800 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 45 
 
 f >  
 f > Another thing that cannot be properly simulated in Champions. No  
 f > matter how good my hold, you still get a roll every phase. Assuming  
 f > anything like a fair competition, you will escape within well under a  
 f > minute, most of the time. OTOH, some judo holds, once successfully  
 f > executed, are all but inescapable.  
 f >  
 f > Filksinger  
 f > ---  
  
If it's in the midst of combat with multiple participants, I can  
see the standard rule - you can't afford to concentrate exclusively  
on the hold, but in a duel or match, I could see shifting to the  
time chart when trying to break out, much like breaking out of 
 
mental powers....  Or, you could dissallow further attempts if  
the held character blows his attempt to escape very badly.  
  
The other odd thing is that the character could, in less than a  
minute easily knock themselves out trying to break or maintain  
the hold.  Now that I think about it, this how un-equal holds  
usually go in my experience, one character pushes a few times  
trying to get out, fails, and runs out of END.  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:50:08 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Explosives 
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On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Tokyo Mark wrote: 
 
<stuff about the death of Brandon Lee snipped> 
 
> This is also the first I've heard of this story.  Most accounts I read 
> mentioned nothing about a real lead slug.  But then, there is somethign 
> creepy about the whole thing and simularities with one of Bruce Lee's 
> movies. 
 
I also understand the constat use of rain in all the scenes ended up 
electrocuting two people.  Fatally, I believe.  All-in-all, _The Crow_ 
didn't sound like the best run moive, prop wise... 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: ludator@mail.softfarm.com 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:52:49 -0600 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
Subject: Re: Point  Crocks?????? 
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At 12:44 AM 1/14/98 -0600, Remnant wrote: 
>If your definition of "point crock" is "Anything that is more effective for 
>less points, is a point crock."  If you think "point crocks" are a bad 
>thing.  Then I am surprised that you even play Hero.  The number places 
>where you can "save" points in Hero that don't limit your character that 
>much are numerous.  This is and has been part of the game forever. 
 
To use an exaggerated example: murder has been part of the human condition 
"forever".  I'm still going to do everything in my power to prevent it from 
occurring. :/ 
 
"Saving" points without any limiting factor to justify it may be a "part of 
the system", but it's not really part of the system's PHILOSOPHY.  Things 
like the Basic Law of Disadvantages/Power Limitations express a clear desire 
from the system creators that You Get What You Pay For. 
 
> I know that doesn't make it right, but it does make it part of the system. 
> I have always assumed that every character has equal access to the many  
> and varied "point crocks" of the system.  In this case, to me, Equal 
> equates to equitable.  8-) 
 
Every character has "equal access" only if you're willing to shift your 
character concept to conform to the maximum number of exploitable "bugs". 
Simply put, there should be no "bad design" that didn't come from a "bad 
concept". 
 
>Similar to a bug in a computer program.  If you know it is there and it has 
>a useful purpose, it isn't a bug it is simply an undocumented feature. 
 
These bugs don't serve a useful purpose.  In fact, they detriment the 
"program" by degrading the ability of point totals to serve as an accurate 
measure of character ability. 
 
>If you think that the "point crocks" are not such that every character can 
>access them equally, then you have one of the most realistic game systems 
>ever developed.  Imagine a game system the simulates real life so well that 
>it isn't fair either. 
 
You achieve the same effect via random character generation.  Anyone takers 
for randomized HERO? :/ 
 
>I have not been following the current arguments about STR and points very 
>closely because my game is strange and we don't worry much over points.  But 
>the "hopelessly broken" comment got me.  I don't care if STR is overpriced, 
>underpriced , or even interdimensionally priced cause I really don't care 
>about points.  HERO IS GREAT. 
 
HERO is great, but it's not perfect.  It can be better.  
 
And if you don't worry much over points, why worry about any changes to the 
costs? :/ 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 13 Jan 98 21:23:10 -0800 
Subject: Re: Bugs 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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 > From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>  
 >  
 > >>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:  
 >  
 > BG> and Requires an Attack Roll (-1/2) are also applied.  
 > BG>    (The Attack Roll is made when the bug is planted, and does not  
 > suffer  
 > BG> penalties for Active Points.)  
 >  
 > Since "Requires a Skill Roll" does have active point penalties and is  
 > worth  
 > - -1/2, having a similar roll but not having active point penalties  
 > should be  
 > worth less of a bonus.  
  
First off, Activation Rolls certianly don't conform to this.  Second,  
the power in question is likely to be low Apts, so a skill roll would  
be pretty easy, whereas an Attack roll can be quite difficult...  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 13 Jan 98 21:26:12 -0800 
Subject: TUSV:Radically changing 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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To: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>  
 l >  
 l > When I was using Champions for a space opera game, one thing I noticed  
 l > that humongous battlewagons were far too cheap relative to grav cars,  
 l > freighters, and jet belts. Then I found a very reasonable way to  
 l > this, at the cost (as it were) of making large vehicles very  
 l > expensive:  
 l >  
  
Actually, no, I haven't noticed this.  What I have noticed is that  
large vehicles are pop targets - you can't much more than punch  
through a bulkhead without destroying the vehicle, and that a tiny  
vehicle has a great advantage in combat, unless you tie Apts to  
mass somehow.  
  
 l > Buy all powers (armor, running, flight, life support) with enough area  
 l > effect to cover the vehicle. (Or not...buy life support only for the  
 l > quarters, for example.)  
 l >  
  
In some instances, this can make sense.  I'd like to see the vehicle's  
BOD count for each hex or something like that, too.  That would help  
justify the huge cost.  
  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 13 Jan 98 21:30:14 -0800 
Subject: Re: TUSV:Radically chang 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>  
 b >  
 b >    It's also a bit much, especially considering that in most campaigns  
 b > vehicles battling each other would be comparable in size and class.  
 b >    There's also the rule (mostly new) that an organization can buy 2X  
 b > number of an identical class of vehicle for +5 points.  So if the Star  
  
Um... aren't vehicles bought as followers?  That would be standard then,  
or is it can only get 2x number for +5 pts if the vehciles are an identical  
class?  
  
 b > Destroyer is built on 500 base points and the X-Wings are built on 200  
 b > each, that Star Destroyer had better be comparable to... well, *lots  
 b > lots* of X-Wings!  (Though this balances out partially, because any  
 b > X-Wing can only do so much damage.)  
 b >  
 b >    The basic crew for a vehicle is one person, who must have the  
 b > class of Vehicle Familiarity; a Crew Disadvantage is built from there.  
 b > 2X required Crew is +5 points; 3X points in required Skills is +5 point  
 b >  I also have other modifiers for how well the Vehicle runs with a  
 b > skeleton crew.  
  
Sounds good...  
  
b >    As for number of people required to operate a single device,  
 b > multi-person firing crews were (IIRC) introduced in the VIPER  
 b > which gives a -1 Limitation for "Two-Man Firing Crew."  I'd be for  
 b > an additional -1/2 for each additional person in the required firing  
 b > crew.  
  
Hmmm... I can see the -1, it's similar to OAF.  But I think requiring  
more crew should be a very small lim, maybe -1/4 per x2 people...  
  
___  
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Opal@october.com (Opal) 
Date: 13 Jan 98 21:50:18 -0800 
Subject: TUSV: Targets 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
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Hey Bob!  Something else occured to me... there are some  
vehicles that I think TUSV should just have to be able  
to do (ie the ones I've always had trouble building).  
  
I think a really good Vehicle system should be able to  
do all of these:  
  
Derigibles, and other lighter-than-air-crafts  
  
Modern Jet fighters  
  
Hovercraft  
  
Submarines  
  
The Death Star (and *really* big vehicles in general)  
  
'Warp Drive' starship (ie manuevering at FTL speeds like Star Trek)  
  
'Jump Drive' starship (disapears in one part of the galaxy, reapears  
                       many LY's away)  
  
The TARDIS (bigger on the inside)  
  
Transforming Vehicles (including Combining ones)  
  
Living Vehicles  
  
and...  
  
Speed Racer's Mach 5  :)  
  
  
Any others?  
  
___  
 * OFFLINE 1.58  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
Subject: Point  Crocks?????? 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 00:44:09 -0600 
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>From Opal: 
 
>Very good!  In fact, it's part of a broader scheme of 'volume discounts' 
>that's inherent in the Hero System.  Look at levels.  Say you have a 
>character with some nasty 8-slot attack mulitpower.  (Ignoring the 
>efficiencies of a multipower), say you want a +3 OCV with each of 
>the attacks.  Do you buy +3 OCV Level for 15 points or +3 OCV 
>with each power sepparately for 64 points?  The cheaper option, BTW, 
>also gives you a +3 OCV on anything you might have outside the 
>Multipower.   What a point crock!  This system is hopelessly broken... 
 
 
 
Please don't be offended if you were being facetious above, I haven't been 
following you previous mailings enough to be able to tell.  I know that you 
have probably hit that "why can't they see my point?", place in the 
arguments that get started on this list and seem to go on forever.  Anybody 
want to talk "Linked"  Just kidding....back away from the gun....please it 
was just a joke.....AAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHH 
 
Okay I'm back now and properly chastised. 
 
If your definition of "point crock" is "Anything that is more effective for 
less points, is a point crock."  If you think "point crocks" are a bad 
thing.  Then I am surprised that you even play Hero.  The number places 
where you can "save" points in Hero that don't limit your character that 
much are numerous.  This is and has been part of the game forever.  I know 
that doesn't make it right, but it does make it part of the system.   I have 
always assumed that every character has equal access to the many and varied 
"point crocks" of the system.  In this case, to me, Equal equates to 
equitable.  8-) 
 
Similar to a bug in a computer program.  If you know it is there and it has 
a useful purpose, it isn't a bug it is simply an undocumented feature. 
 
If you think that the "point crocks" are not such that every character can 
access them equally, then you have one of the most realistic game systems 
ever developed.  Imagine a game system the simulates real life so well that 
it isn't fair either. (Sometimes I crack myself up.) hahahahahahahaha  While 
I'm talking about "point crocks" and cracking myself up, anyone ever had a 
player who after taking the disad:  extra damage from guns, think that it 
applied only to guns, not bullets.  Bwaaahhhahaha 
 
I have not been following the current arguments about STR and points very 
closely because my game is strange and we don't worry much over points.  But 
the "hopelessly broken" comment got me.  I don't care if STR is overpriced, 
underpriced , or even interdimensionally priced cause I really don't care 
about points.  HERO IS GREAT.  It was the best in the early eighties when I 
started playing and it has gotten better and stayed the best.  HERO FOREVER. 
I have to go now before I get digital tears stains on my e-mail.  Thanks for 
your time.  Let the attacks commence, I can handle it 
FOR, I AM MIGHTY. 
 
And remember, BE A HERO. 
 
Alan 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Nuclear weapons, revisited. 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:56:08 -0800 
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Some time ago, there was a discussion on here concerning the 
real-world effects of nuclear weapons, so that they could be modeled 
in Champions and built on points. Reference was made to a book (one I 
always liked), "The Effects of Nuclear Weapons". Remembering that my 
local library system had it somewhere in the county, I put in a 
request for it. 
 
When I got it, it was the holidays, and I was too busy to read it and 
post about it. Now, I find that I have it overdue. 
 
So, without further adieu, the effects of an air-burst 10 kt nuclear 
weapon (Hiroshima-size). Some of these are statistics from Hiroshima, 
others are models created by building houses, etc., in the desert, and 
then detonating a nuke in their neighborhood. 
 
The book has an interesting "computer", one of those plastic wheels. 
It tells you virtually all the figures you could want about a blast of 
any particular size, from peak overpressure to wind speed to caloric 
energy to how fast you will fly backwards if hit by the blast. 
Comparing the results from this computer and various charts in the 
book,I came up with these results. Remember, these are my attempts to 
read a sometimes vague device that was a rough estimate to begin with. 
 
To begin with, fatalities. Listed are the ranges at which 50% of the 
people survived at Hiroshima for 20 days, under various levels of 
cover. 
 
Cover     Distance in miles 
 
Overall        0.8 
Concrete 
Buildings      0.12 
School 
Personnel: 
    Indoors    0.45 
    Outdoors   1.3 
 
 
 
 
Burns 
 
For a blast of this size, it is estimated that there will be third 
degree burns on exposed skin at up to a distance of about 1.3-1.4 
miles, second degree at 1.5-1.6, and first degree at 2.2 miles. 
 
This, however, assumes a clear day. A little bit of haze makes a big 
difference, and clouds severely cut down on the amount of direct heat 
damage. 
 
Buildings 
 
On page 215, the amount of damage done to various types of buildings 
at various distances from various weapons is laid out in a chart. You 
line up the building type with either weapon yield or distance in 
feet, and the chart will give you the missing element. This chart 
gives both moderate (building badly damaged, askew but standing) and 
severe (building falling over). The results are rather rough. 
 
I have created a key for this drastically diminished version of the 
chart. 
 
Type 1, multistory reinforced concrete building with reinforced 
concrete walls, designed to resist blast. 
 
Type 3, brick apartment house type, up to three stories 
 
Type 5, Wood frame house 
 
Type 9, Earthquake resistant office building between three and ten 
stories. 
 
Type 10, Non-earthquake resistant office building between three and 
ten stories. 
 
Damage from ten megaton blast: 
 
            Distance 
            from blast 
            in feet 
Building 
Type        Severe Damage    Moderate Damage 
 
1            1200'            1500' 
 
3            4500'            5500' 
 
5            5500'            7000' 
 
9            1300'            1600' 
 
10           1600'            2000' 
 
Anyone who wants to try to model this in Champions, feel free. Anyone 
who wants more data, get the book yourself.:) 
 
Filksinger 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:03:10 -0800 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
Organization: Sujin & Brian 
Subject: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
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How much would skills levels to offset time penalties on a task cost? 
 
 
-- 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing 
 
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at 
 
some point. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Magic Shapeshifting Potions 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:15:21 -0800 
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On Wednesday, December 31, 1997 7:16 PM, Stirling Westrup wrote: 
 
<<So Sayeth Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net&> 
 
> On Monday, December 29, 1997 3:22 PM, Stirling Westrup wrote: 
> That said, do not put points from a VPP into an Independent, one 
> charge only forever Focus. That is just a way to waste points. One 
> charge, perhaps, but not Independent, and definitely not one charge 
> only forever. 
 
So how do you model the classical fantasy 'magic potion', such that a 
player 
character can find one in a chest and be able to use it. Drinking it 
lets the 
hero turn into any animal he wants, for up to 1 hour. 
 
And after you've modeled the potion, how do you model the alchemist 
who makes a 
living creating and selling such potions? 
 
This problem seems to be a perennial one in Fantasy Hero games.>> 
 
Try this. 
 
An alchemist can create a potion via two methods. He can create it as 
a disposable focus, and cost himself a fortune. This represents an 
alchemist who places his own life energy into a potion to make it 
work. 
 
Most alchemists won't do this, for obvious reasons. For these 
alchemists, try Transfer. The GM declares that various rare objects 
have points in them that an alchemist can use. The alchemist then uses 
Transfer to move the points from the materials to the potion, and then 
the points are spent on the power, with appropriate limitations. 
 
The Transfer may be only workable on "proper" items. Thus, Transfer to 
get points for healing may come from  the horn of a unicorn, but not 
from the teeth of a dragon. 
 
Expanding your Transfer power, in both strength and flexibility, is 
the product of experience and learning/formulating new potions. The 
Transfer can be short lived, to represent potions that go bad quickly, 
or very long lived, for long lasting potions that are carefully 
preserved. The character can have a Multipower full of Transfers, 
while really skilled alchemists have VPPs. 
 
Quests can exist for getting substances that contain many points. 
Other quests can be started for items that are appropriate for a 
potion the GM wants to be rare. Alchemists become useful, both as PCs 
and NPCs. 
 
Filksinger 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
Subject: Re: Explosives 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 04:33:25 -0500 
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(material snipped) 
 
>> Assuming that 1 DC is about 50 joules with a doubling of energy for every 
>> additional DC, that puts one gram of TNT at about 7d6 damage, provided the 
>> character takes the full brunt of the blast. 
 
On January 13, 1998, Anthony Jackson replied: 
 
> That assumption is really only valid for bullets.  On the one hand, a STR 13 
> guy with a broadsword (1d+1) is _not_ swinging the sword for 400 joules, he 
> probably isn't even swinging it for 200 joules.  This is even more notable 
for 
> punches and kicks, even someone pretty strong and trained in martial arts 
> isn't going to be hitting for a lot over 100 joules.  OTOH, a tablespoon of 
> boiling water will deliver around 3000 joules of thermal energy into you if 
> you pour it over your hand, and that isn't a 7d6 energy blast ;).  DCs don't 
> measure heat, they measure destructive ability. 
 
I'll say this once again to the mailing list:  Where kinetic attacks are 
concerned, pressure is often a more reliable measure of damage than raw energy. 
 Unfortunately, force and pressure can be so damn difficult to estimate, the 
physics of inelastic collisions being such a messy business.  To know the force 
involved, you have to know the time over which the collision occurs.  For 
example, when a human body falls from a height and hits solid concrete, it 
takes perhaps .01 to .03 seconds for the body to decelerate to a downward 
velocity of 0.0 m/sec, so you can measure the forces and pressures applied in 
such falls (about 48 g for a 1-story fall, 95 g for a 2-story fall).  
Estimating forces and pressures applied to both elastic and inelastic materials 
for so many different types of collisions is a hairy problem.  Working with 
energy is a helluva a lot simpler. 
 
In the case of a sword cut, no, the sword likely doesn't have as high a kinetic 
energy as 400 J, but the force of the blow is applied over the blade's edge, a 
very small surface area, hence great pressure.  Bullets also strike with small 
surface area/high pressure.  That's why bullets and swords are killing attacks, 
and punches and concussive shockwaves are normal attacks--greater surface area, 
lower pressure.        
 
100 J of KE is a reasonable punch or kick for a normal person, hence I treat it 
as a 2d6 normal attack.  If you like, scale 2d6 back to just 50 J, and set 1d6 
at 25 J.  In the case of a martial artist, he both a) knows how and where to 
strike his target for best effect, and b) learns to tap a greater portion of 
the power potential of his body than someone with no martial training is 
capable of harnessing.  Consider, for example, the angular momentum and KE of 
Chuck Norris's spinning back kick, or Bruce Lee's famous one-inch punch, where 
years of training permitted him to harness every bit of energy he could into a 
focused blow. 
 
Translating damage dice into heat energy is something I thrashed out in a post 
for the benefit of Bob Greenwade about a month ago.  Your example of a teaspoon 
of boiling water again shows the trouble with considering raw energy alone.  
Now if every calorie of heat in that water were transferred to the flesh it 
touched, it would leave considerable burn damage, provided the person's ED 
wasn't too far above the human average.  Of course, if the person flinches his 
hand away as the water touches it, then only a fraction of the thermal energy 
will be transferred to his flesh, so the actual damage is much less than 7d6.   
  
 
>> So that 1 gm of TNT exploding in the open has an effective blast energy of 
>> just 4,200/5 = 800 joules directed at any single nearby target, for a 5d6 
>> EX.  500 gm (or 1 lb.) would do 14d6 EX, 1 kg 15d6, 1 ton 25d6, 1 kiloton 
>> 35d6, and 1 megaton 45d6. 
 
> Let's reality-check these numbers.  One gram of TNT is roughly equivalent to 
> the propellant charge behind a .30 caliber rifle; actually, I think it is a 
> bit less.  Therefore, if we just take a blank .30 cartridge and set it off in 
> open air, it will do 5d6 to someone a meter away.  Hm...I think not.  Thus, 
> let's fix some numbers. 
> 1)  A human of fairly typical proportions actually will be hit by about 3% of 
> the force of the shockwave at one meter (that 1/5 rule has to do with 
somewhat 
> different issues).  For 1/4 kilo of TNT (1 stick dynamite) this works out to 
> around 30,000 joules. 
 
A sound criticism.  I was trying to keep the math simple, making a comparison 
with timber cutting charges, rather than, say, considering the surface area of 
a human-sized target relative to that of a sphere of 1-meter radius.  This 
leads to the possibility that a person with several levels of Growth will take 
more damage from the shock wave, a person with several levels of Shrinking less 
(though more Knockback).  I also didn't want to plug in a rule where an 
explosion within the same hex as a target is treated differently from placing 
the charge right next to the target--I'm not about to quibble over 1 or 2 feet 
of distance from a blast center. 
 
Divide the energy delivered by 1/10 or 1/20 for that 1 meter distance from the 
blast center, and you get energies of 400 J or 200 J, which a human with a 
decent PD could soak up without too severe an injury.  He should worry more 
about his hearing than his flesh and bones.  You get a base 4d6 or 3d6 damage 
for 1 gm of TNT exploding in the open, then, or about 13d6 for a kilo of HE.  
If you like, increase damage by +1d6 or +2d6 for a demolition charge placed 
next to or strapped to an object or wall. 
 
> 2)  Shockwaves aren't actually all that efficient at delivering energy into 
> someone; figure its roughly equivalent to hitting water.  A three meter fall 
> into water is fairly painful if you hit badly, quite possibly capable of 
> stunning an average person, so calling this 3d6N or 4d6N is about right.  For 
> an 80 kilogram man this is around 2400 joules.  30,000 joules is about +3.5 
> damage classes relative to this, so calling a stick of dynamite 7d6N sounds 
> about right, which is about 6d6 less than your numbers.  I think I've usually 
> set a kilo of high explosives at 10d6N, which is slightly higher, but 15d6 is 
> quite a bit out of line. 
 
When using HE for demolition work, 10d6N for a kilo seems too low for me, and 
7d6 very problematic.  You certainly have to keep the rD and BODY figures for 
walls and objects low--which in turn leads to trouble when a character with a 
20 STR who can do 8d6 damage with an offensive strike can shatter trees and 
punch through brick walls.  A 1/2-lb. TNT charge will reliably cut down a 5" 
diameter tree, cut through a steel cross-section 1/2" thick by 3" wide, or cut 
through high-carbon steel rod or cable 3/4" in diameter.  Treat these as 7d6 
attacks (or maybe as 8d6 or 9d6 attacks if you want to account for the charge 
being closely placed) and you get martial artists who can easily match or even 
surpass that destructive capability.  I don't like that.  I think hard targets 
should be difficult for normal humans to destroy, so HE damage is kept high to 
put it well above what Daredevil or Batman can do with a punch or kick.        
 
>> To get even more realistic with explosives, the damage dice should not 
>> drop off as rapidly as with the basic Explosion Advantage.  For persons in 
>> the open, the minimum safe distance in meters is 100 * the cube-root of 
>> the weight of the TNT in pounds.  So for just 1 pound, this recommended 
>> distance is 100 meters.  For 500 pounds, 800 meters.  Treating explosives 
>> as dropping of by -1 DC per 3" or 4" distance gives a more threateningly 
>> realistic blast radius. 
 
> Hm...this definition sounds like 'distance at which you cannot possibly be 
> hurt, even if you get really really unlucky'. 
 
Correct. 
 
> My traditional answer to area effect for explosions was -1/hex out to 4 
hexes, 
> and beyond that use (-4 + range penalty).  This is actually a bit off, due to 
> the way shockwaves propagate in air; its closer to -3d6 per doubling in range 
> than -2d6. 
 
Again, trying to keep the rule simple.  I don't want to drag out a calculator 
and work out cube-root equations for every explosion.  Your approach makes 
sense.  
 
>> Fragmentation bombs involve something more.  They do damage both from the 
>> concussive blast of the charge and from the fragments or shrapnel sent 
>> flying at great speed.  I would treat that as an autofire RKA explosion 
>> linked to the explosive charge, to represent the multiple fragments that 
>> may strike every target within the blast radius.  Typical fragmentation 
>> grenades might be a 10d6 or 11d6 EX, -1 DC per 3," with a 1-1/2d6 or 2d6 
>> autofire RKA EX, -1 DC per 2", linked to it. 
 
> Shrapnel generally has lower penetration than a pistol round.  Try 1d6, but 
> instead of reducing damage with range, give shrapnel an activation roll 
(maybe 
> about 14- at 1 meter) which is reduced by range. 
 
And pistol rounds at close range do too little damage for my taste.  But then, 
maybe I just like to make a campaign world dangerous, be it bullets, 
explosions, or high falls. 
 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 98 09:38:19 -0000 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
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On 1/13/98 11:45 PM Bob Greenwade (bob.greenwade@klock.com) Said: 
 
>>  A hummer with airbags would be nice... Even the manufacturers are making 
>>airbags optional now. ;) Not worth making it EV equipment, IMO. 
> 
>   Yeah, you're right here; they're uncommon enough that I think I'll 
>strike the bags and let them be a "pay the points" item.  (Then I gotta 
>figure out how to build them... I'm thinking of a Limited sort of Knockback 
>Resistance.) 
 
I would probably put it as armor, "only to protect occupants (not  
vehicle)" and "only in a crash", since most crashes are not done as  
knockback damage (unless you have crash rules that make them work that  
way). 
 
IMO, 
 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 06:05:09 -0800 
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On Tuesday, January 13, 1998 3:45 PM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
 
>At 05:27 PM 1/13/98 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
<snip> 
>><< Engine Thermometer >> 
>> 
>>  Thermostat 
> 
>   Thermo*stat*?  Maybe I gotta check my dictionary, but that seems 
kinda 
>odd.... 
> 
<snip> 
 
Actually, the temperature _control_ device is called a thermostat, and 
the engine temperature sensor is called an engine temperature sensor. 
No thermometer, largely because almost none of them tell you the 
actual temperature. 
 
Filksinger 
 
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Explosives 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 06:12:15 -0800 
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On Tuesday, January 13, 1998 8:08 PM, Tokyo Mark wrote: 
 
 
>> << The slug caught in the chamber of the pistol when it was being 
unloaded and 
>> blanks were inserted.  So instead of a "harmless" blank, the pistol 
now had a 
>> lead slug infront of a live cartridge. >> 
>> 
>>   Sounds like a cover story. Anyone who knows about the way a 
handgun 
>> (revolver *or* semi-auto) functions knows what I'm referring to. 
The 
>> difference in pressure/force between the blank and a "real" round 
is 
>> substantial. I doubt a blank round could project a lead projectile 
out the 
>> barrel, through a grocery bag and into a victim. Especially if it 
was "stuck" 
>> in the barrel as you noted. Just my opinion, of course, but a 
skeptical one 
>> backed by many years of experience working with and handling 
weapons. 
> 
>This is also the first I've heard of this story.  Most accounts I 
read 
>mentioned nothing about a real lead slug. 
 
The accounts I read did. There was quite a mystery for a little while 
about where it came from. 
 
>But then, there is somethign 
>creepy about the whole thing and simularities with one of Bruce Lee's 
>movies. 
> 
 
The story of a slug falling loose into the barrel, getting stuck, and 
then being fired into Brandon Lee's stomach was the official finding 
of the inquest. It is less unbelievable than it looks. First, the 
bullet wasn't 'stuck', exactly. Bullets not being pushed by gases will 
stay in a barrel. Second, the impact was in the stomach. Third, it may 
have been weaker than a normal .44 magnum round, but the size and 
power of a .44 magnum, combined with the power of Hollywood blanks (so 
as to supply smoke and flash) was sufficient to give it a momentum 
similar to a .22 round, which can kill. 
 
Filksinger 
 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 07:20:39 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
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At 11:03 PM 1/13/98 -0800, Rook wrote: 
>How much would skills levels to offset time penalties on a task cost? 
 
   On a specific task?  I'd say 1 point each (the only cost less than 
general Skill Levels to a single Skill). 
   On any task?  I'd call it 5 points.  Call it Overall Skill Levels, with 
a -1 Limitation "Only to Offset Time Penalties." 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 07:27:59 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
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At 05:53 PM 1/14/98 -0800, Rick Holding wrote: 
>>    Air Vehicles: 
>> Altimeter Plus airspeed indicator, vertical speed indicator, compass 
system,  
>attitude indicator (which way is up?).  All of these are considered basic  
>flight instruments. 
 
   Yeah, I'd missed the attitude indicator somehow, even though the whole 
time I was writing it I was visualizing its appearance. 
 
>> Beacon Lights Called Anti-collision lights or anti-collision strobes 
combined with  
>position lights ( the red and green lights that are at the left and right  
>extremities of the aircract) 
 
   Thanks for the clarification.  On both this as the attitude indicator, I 
was blanking out on the correct terminology. 
 
>> Climate Control Not always 
 
   Common enough to include on this list. 
 
>> Fuel Gauge If you are going into fuel gauge level, include engine 
performance  
>moniters (engine speed, engine exhaust tempeture, power (or torque) 
supplied,  
>fire detection) 
 
   Good call. 
 
>> Radio (2-way) Actually, two or three seperate radios plus some 
navigation beacon  
>receivers 
 
   One is enough for game purposes. 
 
>> Running Lights Helicopters also have searchlights that are rotatable as 
standard fit. 
 
   That's a big enough thing that points should be paid for it. 
 
>> Seat Belts 
> 
> Another component that is required to be able to fly is an IFF  
>transponder to enable air traffic control to know who is flying in their  
>airspace.  It also tells them how high the aircraft is. 
 
   Got that now; thanks.   :-] 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 07:28:36 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
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At 06:00 PM 1/14/98 -0800, Rick Holding wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>>    Yeah, you're right here; they're uncommon enough that I think I'll 
>> strike the bags and let them be a "pay the points" item.  (Then I gotta 
>> figure out how to build them... I'm thinking of a Limited sort of Knockback 
>> Resistance.) 
> 
> How about 1/2 damage reduction, normal physical only, only from the  
>front. 
 
   Sounds reasonable, unless someone comes up with a better idea. 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 07:49:13 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Radical Changes 
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At 09:30 PM 1/13/98 -0800, Opal wrote: 
>To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>  
> b >  
> b >    It's also a bit much, especially considering that in most campaigns  
> b > vehicles battling each other would be comparable in size and class.  
> b >    There's also the rule (mostly new) that an organization can buy 2X  
> b > number of an identical class of vehicle for +5 points.  So if the Star  
>  
>Um... aren't vehicles bought as followers?  That would be standard then,  
>or is it can only get 2x number for +5 pts if the vehciles are an identical  
>class? 
 
   To the first question, no.  They're bought in the same manner as 
Followers, but in the BBB they are their own Perk and not actually Followers. 
   To the second question, yes.  You only get 2X per +5 points if the 
vehicles are an identical class.  A 100-point Starfury and a 100-point 
X-Wing, even if owned by the same organization, would have to be bought 
altogether separately. 
   And to avoid confusion, this rule is only applicable to organizations (a 
version of my Organization Construction rules are in an Appendix, pared 
down enough to be barely recongizable) and not to regular characters. 
 
>b >    As for number of people required to operate a single device,  
> b > multi-person firing crews were (IIRC) introduced in the VIPER  
> b > which gives a -1 Limitation for "Two-Man Firing Crew."  I'd be for  
> b > an additional -1/2 for each additional person in the required firing  
> b > crew.  
>  
>Hmmm... I can see the -1, it's similar to OAF.  But I think requiring  
>more crew should be a very small lim, maybe -1/4 per x2 people... 
 
   The way I'm seeing it is as a -1/2 per person, including the first, for 
needing more than one (a sort of "Weapons of Opportunity" variant). 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 07:51:43 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Targets 
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At 09:50 PM 1/13/98 -0800, Opal wrote: 
>Hey Bob!  Something else occured to me... there are some  
>vehicles that I think TUSV should just have to be able  
>to do (ie the ones I've always had trouble building).  
>  
>I think a really good Vehicle system should be able to  
>do all of these:  
>  
>Derigibles, and other lighter-than-air-crafts  
 
   There shouldn't be much trouble there.  I was struggling for a while 
with how to represent the oversized gas balloon, but I'm now leaning toward 
using a Physical Limitation. 
 
>Modern Jet fighters  
>  
>Hovercraft  
>  
>Submarines  
 
   These will be *no* trouble.  The main emphases in the book are, in 
approximate order, superhero vehicles, giant robots, "Space Opera" ships, 
and conventional combat craft.  And whether your vision of hovercraft is 
duct fan ground-hoverers or true flying vehicles, that will be covered. 
 
>The Death Star (and *really* big vehicles in general)  
 
   That should be doable.  In fact, I'm thinking of including such a vessel 
in the Sample Characters and Vehicles chapter. 
 
>'Warp Drive' starship (ie manuevering at FTL speeds like Star Trek)  
>  
>'Jump Drive' starship (disapears in one part of the galaxy, reapears  
>                       many LY's away)  
 
   You should be satisfied here. 
 
>The TARDIS (bigger on the inside)  
 
   I've come up with an unusual way of doing this.  It's a little long to 
go into right at this time, but the feedback I've gotten from reviewers has 
been positive, so I think you'll like it. 
 
>Transforming Vehicles (including Combining ones)  
 
   Absolutely!   :-]  I've carried forward the method of Combining from the 
old Robot Warriors game, though I understand that The Ultimate Shape 
Shifter is using a method for Combine based on Duplication instead of 
Multiform, so I may end up using that technique (depending on what the 
final editorial decision is). 
 
>Living Vehicles 
 
   That's in there.  I need to expand the coverage a tad, though; you may 
even find a wholly new alien race that uses living space vehicles (which, 
BTW, are built like regular characters with appropriate abilties and such). 
 
>Speed Racer's Mach 5  :) 
 
   I'm sure Michael Surbrook would be happy to post Speed Racer and the 
Mach 5 after TUSV comes out.  Or maybe he won't wait that long, since he 
has an eval copy of the rough draft.... 
   Heck, just to make sure everyone's satisfied, I'm going to rent 
"Goldfinger" before I send in the first draft just to make sure that 
there's at least a token representation of funky automotive spy gear (like 
those rotating license plates) in the Equipment Sourcebook.   :-] 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:05:04 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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At 06:05 AM 1/14/98 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>On Tuesday, January 13, 1998 3:45 PM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>At 05:27 PM 1/13/98 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
><snip> 
>>><< Engine Thermometer >> 
>>> 
>>>  Thermostat 
>> 
>>   Thermo*stat*?  Maybe I gotta check my dictionary, but that seems 
>kinda 
>>odd.... 
>> 
><snip> 
> 
>Actually, the temperature _control_ device is called a thermostat, and 
>the engine temperature sensor is called an engine temperature sensor. 
>No thermometer, largely because almost none of them tell you the 
>actual temperature. 
 
   That's probably more like it. 
   Hm.... perhaps an actual thermometer should be Detect with 
Discriminatory and Exact Measure? 
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:05:11 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
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On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Rick Holding wrote: 
 
> Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
> >    Yeah, you're right here; they're uncommon enough that I think I'll 
> > strike the bags and let them be a "pay the points" item.  (Then I gotta 
> > figure out how to build them... I'm thinking of a Limited sort of Knockback 
> > Resistance.) 
>  
> 	How about 1/2 damage reduction, normal physical only, only from the  
> front. 
 
Charges (1). Triggered. 
 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:10:39 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
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At 09:38 AM 1/14/98 -0000, David Fair wrote: 
>On 1/13/98 11:45 PM Bob Greenwade (bob.greenwade@klock.com) Said: 
> 
>>>  A hummer with airbags would be nice... Even the manufacturers are making 
>>>airbags optional now. ;) Not worth making it EV equipment, IMO. 
>> 
>>   Yeah, you're right here; they're uncommon enough that I think I'll 
>>strike the bags and let them be a "pay the points" item.  (Then I gotta 
>>figure out how to build them... I'm thinking of a Limited sort of Knockback 
>>Resistance.) 
> 
>I would probably put it as armor, "only to protect occupants (not  
>vehicle)" and "only in a crash", since most crashes are not done as  
>knockback damage (unless you have crash rules that make them work that  
>way). 
 
   Having seen computerized recreations and live simulations (with dummies) 
of what happens to unrestrained passengers in a collision, I think I will 
call it Knockback damage.  I don't remember offhand whether I have it 
marked that way, but now that I'm thinking about it I'll go check it and 
make sure. 
   (I'm thinking most specifically of the [I *think*] Failure Analysis 
recreation of Princess Diana's crash, showing how her position would have 
given her the safest spot in the car had she been wearing her safety belt, 
but gave her the deadliest because she was not -- she literally became a 
human missile, flying through the suddenly stationary car at 110 mph, 
headfirst.  With the safety belt, they concluded, she would likely have 
been treated at the scene, held at a hospital for observation, and released 
the next day.) 
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Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:36:08 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Hurting yourself 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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A while back the list had a discussion about Champions' lack of rules to 
cover the 'effect' of punching something and accidentally hurting yourself. 
Here's a try: 
 
A.) In all cases, if the attack does knockback (or knockdown), the attacker 
shouldn't damage himself. 
B.) Similarly, if the attacker damages a target (does BODY damage), he 
should not damage himself (target absorbs some of the punishment). 
C.) If A.) and B.) are not satisified, compare the DEF of the attacker and 
the DEF of the object/target. If the attacker's DEF is higher, the attacker 
does not take damage from the attack. 
D.) If the target's DEF is higher, the attacker takes (Target DEF - Attacker 
DEF)D6 of normal attack, up to the number of dice of attack. 
E.) This works for weapons attacks too, but use the weapon's DEF in place of 
attacker's DEF, and the damage is applied to the weapon. 
F.) Martial Artists use DEFx1.5 to calculate their 'simulated' DEF when 
using martial arts attacks (they're used to hitting things) - this is 
partially balanced by the fact that MA attacks do less Knockback. 
G.) Certain martial arts attacks that do not do damage through brute force 
(nerve strike, legsweep) should not be subject to these rules. 
 
Examples: 
 
Green Dragon (PD 10) uses his Martial Strike (9D6) on Ogre (PD 28), and 
fails to do any knockback. Green Dragon suffers a (28-[10x1.5])=13D6 Attack, 
lowered to 9D6 b/c that's the maximum. Owch! 
 
Seeker tries the same stunt (only he has 15PD and a 7D6 Martial Strike) on 
Ogre, and fails to do KB or BODY. 28-(15x1.5)=5 1/2D6 Normal Attack on 
Seeker. It'll sting a little, but not too bad. 
 
Joe Normal (PD 2) punches Green Dragon (PD 10) with his fist (2D6). Joe 
Normal fails to do any knockback and suffers (10-2)=8D6, lowered to 2D6 b/c 
that's the maximum. That stings - the normal only has 2 PD (decent chance of 
doing himself BODY damage). 
 
Green Dragon uses his Martial Strike on Seeker (PD 15) and once again fails 
to do knockback. 15-(10x1.5)= 0, no damage. 
 
Seeker swings his Katana at Ogre, doing no knockback or BODY. The Katana is 
a 25 AP focus, so it has 5 DEF. 28-5=23D6, but the attack has a 10DC 
capacity. The Katana suffers a 10D6 normal attack, probably shattering it 
completely. 
 
Comments? This should keep martial artists from using 'brute force' on 
bricks - they're liable to hurt themselves. Not to mention break all their 
shiny toys. 
 
I might also suggest that only the outermost defenses be counted for these 
purposes. i.e. if somebody hit Solitare with her FF up, they'd be facing a 
13PD rather than a 21 PD, b/c it isn't all really the same defense. Perhaps 
just the biggest single defense power/characteristic involved - to avoid the 
'Grond in a suit of chainmail, so it's safer to punch him' problem. Also, 
certain Armor SFX could render the point moot - nobody hurts his hand 
punching FluffyMan (30 DEF, but soft and fluffy). 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
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John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:44:59 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Targets 
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On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> >Speed Racer's Mach 5  :) 
>  
>    I'm sure Michael Surbrook would be happy to post Speed Racer and the 
> Mach 5 after TUSV comes out.  Or maybe he won't wait that long, since he 
> has an eval copy of the rough draft.... 
 
Uh... no.  I can't stand that show and have _no_ desire of writing up 
anything associated with it. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net> 
Subject: Re: Point  Crocks?????? 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:50:34 -0600 
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-----Original Message----- 
From: Vox Ludator! <ludator@mail.softfarm.com> 
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org> 
Date: Wednesday, January 14, 1998 9:05 AM 
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????? 
 
 
>At 12:44 AM 1/14/98 -0600, Remnant wrote: 
>>If your definition of "point crock" is "Anything that is more effective 
for 
>>less points, is a point crock."  If you think "point crocks" are a bad 
>>thing.  Then I am surprised that you even play Hero.  The number places 
>>where you can "save" points in Hero that don't limit your character that 
>>much are numerous.  This is and has been part of the game forever. 
> 
>To use an exaggerated example: murder has been part of the human condition 
>"forever".  I'm still going to do everything in my power to prevent it from 
>occurring. :/ 
Bad anaology. The use of saving points in Hero is basically a reward for a 
cohearent character.  Package deals reward you for having a concept, and 
alow you to afford usefull noncombat skill that might otherwise be left 
behind. ECs and MPs allow characters to afford cohearent sets of powers, 
that would otherwise be imposible to make. Immagine the point cost on any 
low level character without frameworks. Quantum and Starburst would rocket 
up. If we were to drop these point savers, energy projectors would end up 
with two powers, flight and EB. This is not a good thing as it would make 
the game less fun. Abuses to the system are one thing, but those are going 
to happen regaurdless of the rules. The GM must be vigialent and can't 
expect the system to do his job for him. Anyone who thinks otherwise 
probably aslo believes that the V-chip will make a good babysiter. 
 
> 
>"Saving" points without any limiting factor to justify it may be a "part 
>of 
The limiting factor is conecept. 
>the system", but it's not really part of the system's PHILOSOPHY. 
CHARACTER CONCEPT IS THE BASIC PHILOSOHPY OF THE GAME!!!! 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:32:37 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Explosives 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Len Carpenter writes: 
> I'll say this once again to the mailing list:  Where kinetic attacks are 
> concerned, pressure is often a more reliable measure of damage than raw 
> energy.  Unfortunately, force and pressure can be so damn difficult to 
> estimate, the physics of inelastic collisions being such a messy business. 
 
Actually, 'damage' is probably most closely related to linear penetration, 
which isn't a function of pressure per se; for a bullet it's generally 
proportional to momentum divided by area.  Realistically, someone with a level 
of density increase would probably do more damage with a punch than someone of 
identical strength without density increase. 
 
> a hairy problem.  Working with energy is a helluva a lot simpler. 
 
True.  Just add a fudge-factor for various _kinds_ of energy -- not all forms 
of energy are equal. 
>  
> 100 J of KE is a reasonable punch or kick for a normal person. 
No, its actually a damned _impressive_ punch for a normal person.  A normal 
person probably punches for closer to 20 joules. 
 
>  
> Translating damage dice into heat energy is something I thrashed out in a 
> post for the benefit of Bob Greenwade about a month ago.  Your example of 
> a teaspoon of boiling water again shows the trouble with considering raw 
> energy alone.  Now if every calorie of heat in that water were transferred 
> to the flesh it touched, it would leave considerable burn damage, provided 
> the person's ED wasn't too far above the human average.  Of course, if the 
> person flinches his hand away as the water touches it, then only a fraction 
> of the thermal energy will be transferred to his flesh, so the actual damage 
> is much less than 7d6.   
 
Um, my energy example assumes 100C water, which cools by 50 degrees on striking 
flesh.  The real heat transfer might be less, call it 25 degrees if you take 
that tablespoon of water and pour it somewhere (say, over the back of your 
hand, without flinching).  First-degree burns over 50-100 square centimeters of 
flesh are not a 6d6 energy blast. 
>  
> A sound criticism.  I was trying to keep the math simple, making a 
> comparison with timber cutting charges, rather than, say, considering the 
> surface area of a human-sized target relative to that of a sphere of 1-meter 
> radius.  This leads to the possibility that a person with several levels of 
> Growth will take more damage from the shock wave, a person with several 
> levels of Shrinking less (though more Knockback). 
Realistically, I'd probably subtract a die of damage from explosions per level 
of shrinking, and add a die per 3 levels of growth, with an upper limit. 
 
> When using HE for demolition work, 10d6N for a kilo seems too low for me, 
> and 7d6 very problematic. 
Using explosives for demolitions work is a _lot_ more effective than using it 
for open charges.  For a properly tamped high explosive, add about 5d6 to its 
damage.  For an expert, you could add the effects of a single use of find 
weakness. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:37:03 EST 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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<< I would probably put it as armor, "only to protect occupants (not vehicle)" 
and "only in a crash">> 
 
  Or more accurately, "Only from front-end impact"  ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:46:07 -0800 (PST) 
From: Duane Morris <duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca> 
Reply-To: Duane Morris <duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
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On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Rick Holding wrote: 
 
> Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
> >    Yeah, you're right here; they're uncommon enough that I think I'll 
> > strike the bags and let them be a "pay the points" item.  (Then I gotta 
> > figure out how to build them... I'm thinking of a Limited sort of Knockback 
> > Resistance.) 
>  
> 	How about 1/2 damage reduction, normal physical only, only from the  
> front. 
 
Are you talking about damage only from going forwards, or from collisions 
from the front of the car...  I know that airbags are only supposed to 
inflate if there is a collision within 10 degrees of headon <I may be 
wrong on that figure, though>. 
 
I would also be tempted to add some sort of damage shield/NND to it... 
 
Duane. 
 
------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Duane Morris <duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca>   Dept. of Technical Services 
Faculty of Pure and Applied Science        Petrie Science Stores 
York University, North York, Ontario  M3J 1P3, CANADA 
Voice: (416) 736-5244; Fax: (416) 736-5516 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:51:01 EST 
Subject: Re: Nuclear weapons, revisited. 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
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<< Some time ago, there was a discussion on here concerning the real-world 
effects of nuclear weapons, so that they could be modeled in Champions and 
built on points. >> 
 
  This was done in Hero System Almanac 2, I believe. :/ 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Cc: "aregalad@miami.edu" <aregalad@miami.edu&> 
        "Hero System Mailing List" <champ-l@omg.org> 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 98 19:05:40  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Wish: Benchmarks (was: A Sample Character) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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On Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:19:44 -0500 (EST), aregalad@miami.edu wrote: 
 
>Howdy, 
> 
>> >> >Actually, you have just proved my point and validated my observations 
>> >> >about INT. You are right about ONE thing. When I said INT is only good for 
>> >> >Perception and INT rolls I neglected to mention skill rolls (I kind of 
>> >> >lumped them with INT rolls - my bad). The thing is that skills based on 
>> >> >INT and INT rolls have the same breakdown - hence they have the same 
>> >> >problem. Nothing about my argument is invalidated.  
>> >>  
>> >> Actually it was, but if you add in INT based skills, then yes, it makes 
>> >> a VAST difference, and as far as you go, I agree with you, but there 
>> >> are alternatives. 
>> > 
>> >I'm sorry - when you say "Actually it was," what do you mean? 
>>  
>> Invalidated, totally. 
> 
>Hmmm...I'm afraid we are just going to have to disagree. I honestly can't 
>even begin to see how this is the case. 
> 
>> > As far as INT based skills making a huge difference 
>> >- not really, at least not relative to other characteristic rolls and the 
>> >skills they modify. 
>>  
>> The invalidation because there are camapigns which emphasise skills 
>> rather than powers, and in such campaigns, INT is very effective. 
> 
>My only point here is that there are skills based on PRE, DEX, STR just as 
 
Which skills are based on Str? 
 
>there are skills based on INT. Because of this - even in a game that 
>emphasizes skills over powers - INT is no more important than the other 
>stats. 
 
This is not so at all, in my experience. 
 
> Even if it were, this beside the point. I never said 
>INT wasn't effective.  
 
Agreed, but you vastly underrated its effectiveness in your original 
statement. 
 
>My point is that if you are going to break down the 
>effectiveness of ALL characteristics these categories need to make 
>sense and to do so they should each make a difference in game play 
>(otherwise the categories mean nothing). 
 
I can agree with that, but it didn't come out in your original post. 
 
>> >> Alternatively, as in the example of the Repartee rules, you can have an 
>> >> INT CV, which would be appropriate for many mental powers, and, in a FH 
>> >> game, you can allow wizards to have INT/3 spells active instead of the 
>> >> INT/5 that is more appropriate for the modern era. 
>> > 
>> >We could, but we don't. :] 
>>  
>> Why not try it? I'm not running a Hero campaign at the moment, but it 
>> strikes me as being eminently sensible for non-superhero campaigns. 
> 
>It might be sensible. I'm not saying its a bad idea - I'm just saying that 
>for the purpose of my benchmarks I'd rather stick to the official 
>characteristic rules. 
 
Fair enough. 
 
>> >> Anyway, as I stated earlier, INT is very cheap for its utility. 
>> > 
>> >I'm not at all concerned with cost.  
> 
>> ! 
> 
>Heh, your exclamation mark response leads me to believe that you 
>have not fully understood my argument (probably my fault for not being 
>clear enough). I have NEVER said that INT wasn't cost effective. I'm just 
>saying that if you make 20 near human maximum, there is not enough 
>granularity to make a convincing set of benchmarks. Most benchmark tables 
>I've seen break stats down into aproximately 5 categories between average 
>and human maximum. Fuzion's are pretty standard. Again, they are: 
>Everyman, Competent, Heroic, Incredible and Legendary. If 20 is near 
>maximim you only have 3 breakdown points:  11<, 12< and 13<. 
> 
>Can you see this? Does this make sense?  
> 
>Let me try to give an example. I'm making Doc Genius in a campaign that 
>heavily emphasizes skills over powers. I decide to look at my 5th Edition 
>HERO book and find that they have a handy dandy benchmark table that looks 
>something like this: 
> 
> 
>10-12 Everyman		11< 
>13-14 Competent		12< 
>15-16 Heroic		12< 
>17-18 Incredible	13< 
>19-20 Legendary		13< 
> 
>Cool, well Doc Genius is the brightest there is, so I buy him a 20 INT. 
>Now he has a 13< in his 50 science skills. 
> 
>Now my friend Mike is making a character named Mr. Pedantry. This guy is 
>pretty smart (although a show-off) but Mike decides that he is not as 
>smart as Doc Genius. Because of this he buys Mr. Pedantry an 18 INT. Now 
>the base Mr. Pedantry's 10 science skills is ...... 13<! Wait! That's the 
>same as Doc Genius' Legendary INT. 
> 
>Now, I'm not really complaining about my skill base. I mean, 13 or less in 
>50 sciences is pretty good. I DO, however, think the benchmarks don't make 
>sense. Why does somebody with a Legendary INT have the same skill base as 
>somebody with an Incredible INT? Why buy a Legendary INT at all?  
> 
>That is why I can't understand why you feel my argument has been refuted 
>somehow. All I was arguing is that HERO needs to take these discrepancies 
>into consideration when they make their benchmark tables (if they make 
>'em). They either need to make the human maximum for INT (and maybe PRE) 
>much higher to give the granularity such benchmark tables need - or they 
>need to redefine the way INT works (all of Vox and Phantom's suggestions 
>were good, IMO). 
 
What you're not seeing is that Hero is really designed as a *SuperHero* 
game, where one hero will have Int 15 and another Int 40. In Heroic 
campaigns, then the reduced differential is reflected - see my seperate 
argument about Str. 
 
>Well, that is about as clear as I can be. If you still can't see my point, 
>I would appreciate an explanation of yours. I'd honestly be interested in 
>hearing your logic. Thanks for your time. 
 
Simply that in your original post you vastly underestimated the value 
of Int. You have since corrected this. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 98 19:19:48  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Magic Shapeshifting Potions 
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On Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:19:52 -0500, Joe Claffey Jr. wrote: 
 
>"Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> asks, 
>> 
>>So how do you model the classical fantasy 'magic potion', such that a player 
>>character can find one in a chest and be able to use it. Drinking it lets the 
>>hero turn into any animal he wants, for up to 1 hour. 
 
Can you cite any sources? Usually the potion lets you assume the form 
of a *particular* animal. 
 
A potion is usualy a collection of Effects with the Advantage 'Trigger' 
(being consumed). 
 
> Usually a VPP: Animal Powers, used with a Universal Expendable Focus. 
 
Try Summon, and make an Ego Roll to avoid going wild. 
 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 98 19:24:31  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
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On 13 Jan 98 20:18:04 -0800, Opal wrote: 
 
> t > From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>  
> t >  
> t > > I did _not_ say Frameworks when I meant Elemental Control. I said  
> t > "all  
> t > > Frameworks", so obviously I was admitting there was more than one.  
> t > > Multipower can easily be a far greater point crock than EC, and VPP  
> t > > can be even worse.  
> t >  
> t > Can you get into situations with Multipower and VPP where reducing the  
> t > level of an ability results in a higher cost? (Or vice-versa) I  
> t > haven't  
> t > been able to find any.  
> t >  
>  
>Let's see:  
>  
>40 Multipowr  
> 4 u 20" Flight  
>14 u 20/20 Force field, 1/2 END  
>24 u 12d EB  
>--  
>82  
 
This should cost a max of 52 = 40 + (3x(40/10)) 
 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 98 19:28:19  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
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On Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:27:28 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
><< I need help from those who are better informed than I about what equipment 
>should be considered "standard" for all vehicles of various types. >> 
><<    Air Vehicles: >> 
><< Radar (360 degree, non-Discriminatory, non-Targeting) >> 
> 
>  360 degree radar is not, I don't believe, standard on all aircraft. For 
>starters, there are a few small planes that do not have radar. Those aside, 
>the radar I'm thinking of (such as on airliners and fighters) is directional; 
>the coverage can be altered (e.g., 60 degree cone to 180 degree front, etc.) 
>but I don't think it has 360 coverage. That's a mighty powerful radar blowin' 
>through the pilot, mate! ;) True, certain aircraft, like the AWACS and the 
>Orion, would have 360 degree radar, but this wouldn't be "EveryVeh" equipment, 
>IMO. 
 
The Awacs has a huge radar blind spot - underneath. TTBOMK the British 
Nimrod is the only one with 360 degree coverage, because it has radars 
fore and aft. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: A Sample Character 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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>>>>> "SW" == Stirling Westrup <sti@CAM.ORG> writes: 
 
SW> I have an aquaintance who is a martial artist and a martial arts 
SW> choreagrapher for the movies. (He claims, BTW that the two fields have 
SW> almost nothing in common). 
 
He is 100% correct. 
 
SW> He's told me that ALL fight scenes take place at about 1/4 realistic 
SW> speed, since the average audience does not have the training to watch 
SW> and understand faster fights. 
 
Again, he is 100% correct. 
 
Stage fighting is a beautiful art when done properly, but it bears little 
resemblance to a real fight.  Real fights are boring to watch if you do not 
know what you are seeing.  For instance, in "The Seven Samurai", the 
shortest fight is comprised of about 20 seconds of staredown, half a second 
of action, and one samurai is dead.  The fight was over before the "action" 
had began, but an untrained fighter will not see it. 
 
For those who happen to be at Arisia this weekend, watch for TJ Glenn's 
panel on stage fighting, probably Sunday morning. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Bugs 
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>>>>> "O" == Opal <Opal@october.com> writes: 
 
O> First off, Activation Rolls certianly don't conform to this. 
 
No, but they do have a lower "base" roll for the same value limitation than 
Requires Skill Roll. 
 
O> Second, the power in question is likely to be low Apts, so a skill roll 
O> would be pretty easy, whereas an Attack roll can be quite difficult... 
 
Depends on the target in question.  Kind of hard to miss a parked car at 
point-blank range, no? 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
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>>>>> "R" == Rook <rook@infinex.com> writes: 
 
R> How much would skills levels to offset time penalties on a task cost? 
 
Um, no. 
 
The "base time" to make a roll is the minimum (reasonable) time required to 
accomplish the task.  Failed rolls, and the extra time requirements to 
reattempt the rolls, increase the time taken. 
 
If a character performs spectacularly (ie, the player rolls a 3) then the 
GM may decide that it takes half as much time as normally required (the 
character lucks out somehow).  This not something that a character should 
be able to buy. 
 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:25:01 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Hurting yourself 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:36 AM 1/14/98 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
>A while back the list had a discussion about Champions' lack of rules to 
>cover the 'effect' of punching something and accidentally hurting yourself. 
>Here's a try: 
 
   Actually I've put in some rules to this effect in TUSV, appearing in the 
First Draft like so: 
 
Self-Inflicted Damage 
 
   Occasionally in comics and other sources of fiction a character attacks 
another character and ends up actually doing more damage to himself than to 
his target.  This is usually done for comic effect; however, it's also 
reasonably realistic.  After all, if you punch a brick wall with all your 
might, the only thing you're likely to break is your hand. 
   In hand-to-hand giant robot combat, this can be represented as shown 
below.  However, it should only be used when the robot is using its bare 
"hands" ó that is, when it's using part of itself as a weapon (so kicks 
would count in this as well, even for less-than-humanoid robots).  The GM 
may make "hand"-held weapons subject to this rule, though the damage in 
this case would be taken by the weapon, not by the vehicle. 
   When a hand-to-hand attack is completely absorbed by a target's DEF, 
subtract the amount of BODY that was actually done from the DEF and divide 
by two.  This is the number of dice (including halves) of Normal damage 
that the attacking vehicle will take, up to the same Damage Class of the 
attack it was attempting.  If Hit Locations are being used, the location 
will automatically be the same "body" part that was being used for attack. 
Notably, in vehicle combat this will only rarely do any real damage to the 
attacker unless the target is considerably tougher. 
   The Move By and Move Through maneuvers have their own rules for 
calculating damage done to the attacker.  Those rules should generally be 
used for those maneuvers.  The GM may, however, elect to inflict the damage 
done by whichever rule causes the most damage (though it will be rather 
rare that this rule causes more). 
   As a further option, this rule may also be used on characters attacking 
each other.  As noted above, however, it's best reserved for realistic 
campaigns, or when a humorous effect is desired. 
 
   I'm thinking of modifying this according to your suggestions: 
 
>A.) In all cases, if the attack does knockback (or knockdown), the attacker 
>shouldn't damage himself. 
 
   I'll halve the damage in this case.  That way, damage will be minimal if 
not absorbed altogether in most instances, though it can still happen. 
 
>B.) Similarly, if the attacker damages a target (does BODY damage), he 
>should not damage himself (target absorbs some of the punishment). 
 
   I think that's covered. 
 
>C.) If A.) and B.) are not satisified, compare the DEF of the attacker and 
>the DEF of the object/target. If the attacker's DEF is higher, the attacker 
>does not take damage from the attack. 
 
   I'm not sure that's appropriate.  Most of them time, if a high DEF 
character attacks and does no damage, he takes no self-inflicted damage 
because he was able to absorb the "backlash," not because he's tougher than 
the target. 
 
>D.) If the target's DEF is higher, the attacker takes (Target DEF - Attacker 
>DEF)D6 of normal attack, up to the number of dice of attack. 
 
   As you can see, I relate the "backlash" damage to the original attack. 
 
>E.) This works for weapons attacks too, but use the weapon's DEF in place of 
>attacker's DEF, and the damage is applied to the weapon. 
 
   Good rule! 
 
>F.) Martial Artists use DEFx1.5 to calculate their 'simulated' DEF when 
>using martial arts attacks (they're used to hitting things) - this is 
>partially balanced by the fact that MA attacks do less Knockback. 
 
   Suggestion:  make that DEFx1.5 for Martial Arts attacks that do not 
intrinsically add damage, DEFx2 for +2d6 attacks, DEFx2.5 for +4d6 attacks. 
 (I still use DEF to defend against the damage, and that's where I'd apply 
the multipliers.) 
 
>G.) Certain martial arts attacks that do not do damage through brute force 
>(nerve strike, legsweep) should not be subject to these rules. 
 
   I'd say only those that roll Normal or Killing damage.  A legsweep would 
probably be subject to it -- though a throw would probably not. 
 
>Examples: 
 
   And applying my rules to those examples: 
 
>Green Dragon (PD 10) uses his Martial Strike (9D6) on Ogre (PD 28), and 
>fails to do any knockback. Green Dragon suffers a (28-[10x1.5])=13D6 Attack, 
>lowered to 9D6 b/c that's the maximum. Owch! 
 
   (28-9)/2 = 19/2 = 9; Green Dragon still gets 9d6.  But he gets 20 PD to 
defend against it (Martial Strike does +2d6, a 2X multiplier), so it'll 
sting, but not too badly (11.5 STUN on an average roll). 
 
>Seeker tries the same stunt (only he has 15PD and a 7D6 Martial Strike) on 
>Ogre, and fails to do KB or BODY. 28-(15x1.5)=5 1/2D6 Normal Attack on 
>Seeker. It'll sting a little, but not too bad. 
 
   (28-7)/5 = 21/2 = 10.5; Seeker gets the maximum 7d6.  He gets 30 PD to 
defend against it, so probably doesn't feel anything. 
 
>Joe Normal (PD 2) punches Green Dragon (PD 10) with his fist (2D6). Joe 
>Normal fails to do any knockback and suffers (10-2)=8D6, lowered to 2D6 b/c 
>that's the maximum. That stings - the normal only has 2 PD (decent chance of 
>doing himself BODY damage). 
 
  (10-2)/2 = 8/2 = 4; Joe takes the maximum 2d6, but only his 2 PD to 
defend.  (In other words, same end result.) 
 
>Green Dragon uses his Martial Strike on Seeker (PD 15) and once again fails 
>to do knockback. 15-(10x1.5)= 0, no damage. 
 
   (15-9)/2 = 6/2 = 3; he takes 3d6, which is guaranteed to bounce off the 
20 PD he uses to defend. 
 
>Seeker swings his Katana at Ogre, doing no knockback or BODY. The Katana is 
>a 25 AP focus, so it has 5 DEF. 28-5=23D6, but the attack has a 10DC 
>capacity. The Katana suffers a 10D6 normal attack, probably shattering it 
>completely. 
 
   (28-10)/2 = 18/2 = 9; same probable result. 
 
>Comments? This should keep martial artists from using 'brute force' on 
>bricks - they're liable to hurt themselves. Not to mention break all their 
>shiny toys. 
 
   I think my system is a little less harsh, but still will have the same 
general result (and is arguably more realistic). 
 
>I might also suggest that only the outermost defenses be counted for these 
>purposes. i.e. if somebody hit Solitare with her FF up, they'd be facing a 
>13PD rather than a 21 PD, b/c it isn't all really the same defense. Perhaps 
>just the biggest single defense power/characteristic involved - to avoid the 
>'Grond in a suit of chainmail, so it's safer to punch him' problem. Also, 
>certain Armor SFX could render the point moot - nobody hurts his hand 
>punching FluffyMan (30 DEF, but soft and fluffy). 
 
   That's a rule for some discussion.... 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:41:03 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Targets 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:44 AM 1/14/98 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>> >Speed Racer's Mach 5  :) 
>>  
>>    I'm sure Michael Surbrook would be happy to post Speed Racer and the 
>> Mach 5 after TUSV comes out.  Or maybe he won't wait that long, since he 
>> has an eval copy of the rough draft.... 
> 
>Uh... no.  I can't stand that show and have _no_ desire of writing up 
>anything associated with it. 
 
   Oh, all right.  We'll make Opal do it himself.   :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:41:03 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Targets 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:44 AM 1/14/98 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>> >Speed Racer's Mach 5  :) 
>>  
>>    I'm sure Michael Surbrook would be happy to post Speed Racer and the 
>> Mach 5 after TUSV comes out.  Or maybe he won't wait that long, since he 
>> has an eval copy of the rough draft.... 
> 
>Uh... no.  I can't stand that show and have _no_ desire of writing up 
>anything associated with it. 
 
   Oh, all right.  We'll make Opal do it himself.   :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:48:07 -0800 (PST) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> >>>>> "R" == Rook <rook@infinex.com> writes: 
>  
> R> How much would skills levels to offset time penalties on a task cost? 
>  
> Um, no. 
>  
> The "base time" to make a roll is the minimum (reasonable) time required to 
> accomplish the task.  Failed rolls, and the extra time requirements to 
> reattempt the rolls, increase the time taken. 
> 
	Here I disagree. 
 
	A character who can react to the world at light speed, and do in a mere 
second what a normal can do in months, is a common special effect in speedster 
comics. 
	If you can move and think at such speeds, you can do much more in a 
shorter time. The question then becomes what is the best way to represent it 
in Hero terms. 
 
	I already have an 8" radius change environment to let me do in one 
second within an 16 meter radius anything I could accomplish normally in an 
entire lifetime. 
 
	(I used this in our last game to read the public library for info on 
the guy we were interviewing between sentences of the others, slowed only by 
my running speed of 308.7 mph due to Hero's no FTL in atmosphere rule. Other 
than that running limit, I can do most of the DC speedster tricks.) 
 
  
> If a character performs spectacularly (ie, the player rolls a 3) then the 
> GM may decide that it takes half as much time as normally required (the 
> character lucks out somehow).  This not something that a character should 
> be able to buy. 
>  
	Oh but it is. It's a common effect in the genre. Therefore it needs 
a way of being represented. 
 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing 
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at 
some point. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:59:17 -0800 (PST) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>  
> At 11:03 PM 1/13/98 -0800, Rook wrote: 
> >How much would skills levels to offset time penalties on a task cost? 
>  
>    On a specific task?  I'd say 1 point each (the only cost less than 
> general Skill Levels to a single Skill). 
>    On any task?  I'd call it 5 points.  Call it Overall Skill Levels, with 
> a -1 Limitation "Only to Offset Time Penalties." 
 
	That sounds about right. Let me clarify what I'm trying to do: 
 
Basically I can move at lightspeed, and can take more time to think and 
analyze a situation due to this. 
	Two constructs seem to best represent this in Hero: 
 
Change environment to do anything you could normally do in a given area all in 
one instant. I have this. 
 
And skill levels to offset time penalties to let you do a task that would 
take days or weeks in a second. 
 
The third option, which is not really an option, is to buy a 3000+ speed :) . 
 
	The question on these two options is, are they mutally exclusive? Or 
do they both achieve the same ends. In other words, if I have the change 
environment, do I need the skill levels? 
 
	My opinion is that I may need the skill levels to handle the mental 
tasks. But I'm not fully sure here. 
	If I buy it for only mental tasks, something I would only do if it is 
seen as obvious that 1) the change environment negates the need for physical 
task adjustments, and 2) the change environment gives me no help on 'taking 
time out to think'; then, as limited to mental, would the cost stay the same? 
 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing 
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at 
some point. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 15:02:51 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 03:13 PM 1/14/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>>>>> "R" == Rook <rook@infinex.com> writes: 
> 
>R> How much would skills levels to offset time penalties on a task cost? 
> 
>Um, no. 
> 
>The "base time" to make a roll is the minimum (reasonable) time required to 
>accomplish the task.  Failed rolls, and the extra time requirements to 
>reattempt the rolls, increase the time taken. 
> 
>If a character performs spectacularly (ie, the player rolls a 3) then the 
>GM may decide that it takes half as much time as normally required (the 
>character lucks out somehow).  This not something that a character should 
>be able to buy. 
 
   It a trick is done fairly regularly by speedsters in the comics, and is 
not (as far as I can tell) unbalancing to the system nor much of a plot 
spoiler, and thus should be allowed. 
   "The mechanics of the game work a different way, so this can't be done" 
is, as a rule, not a good argument.  Doing a country mile worth of 
Knockback is the only thing I've seen to date where I'd say that the system 
is so weighted against it that it just can't be done without a full 
alteration of the rules that affect it. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:18:45 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> Um, no. 
 
	Here we go again. 
 
> The "base time" to make a roll is the minimum (reasonable) time required to 
> accomplish the task.  Failed rolls, and the extra time requirements to 
> reattempt the rolls, increase the time taken. 
 
	But the reasonable time is allowed to be decreased with penalties. 
That's in there somewhere, I'll find it.  If so, it is merely a penalty 
that can be counteracted with levels like any other penalty. 
 
> If a character performs spectacularly (ie, the player rolls a 3) then the 
> GM may decide that it takes half as much time as normally required (the 
> character lucks out somehow).  This not something that a character should 
> be able to buy. 
 
 
	Why?  Because Rat says so?  Doesn't work that way.  This is the 
best way to achieve many desired effects, effects that are part of the 
source literature.  Why do you want to disallow valid concepts? 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:20:51 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
> >Let's see: 
> > 
> >40 Multipowr 
> > 4 u 20" Flight 
> >14 u 20/20 Force field, 1/2 END 
> >24 u 12d EB 
> >-- 
> >82 
> 
> This should cost a max of 52 = 40 + (3x(40/10)) 
 
 
	Where do you get that?  It's allowable for slots in a MP to be 
worth more points than the active, in which case the slot ends up paying 
for the amount that the MP doesn't cover. This is a valid, though terribly 
inefficient, construction. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:31:55 -0600 (CST) 
Subject: Hurting yourself 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
>  
> A while back the list had a discussion about Champions' lack of rules to 
> cover the 'effect' of punching something and accidentally hurting yourself. 
> Here's a try: 
>  
I like it. I had heard of somebody's house rule earlier where it was  
'no damage' i.e. body or stun, but think it works better as just no body 
with the adjustment for martial arts.  
>  
> Comments? This should keep martial artists from using 'brute force' on 
> bricks - they're liable to hurt themselves. Not to mention break all their 
> shiny toys. 
>  
Or for that matter, trying to punch their way out of cells, through walls, 
etc. etc.   
 
Curt 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: aregalad@miami.edu 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 18:42:01 -0500 (EST) 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Wish: Benchmarks (was: A Sample Character) 
Cc: "aregalad@miami.edu" <aregalad@miami.edu&> 
        "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Howdy! 
 
> >My only point here is that there are skills based on PRE, DEX, STR just as 
>  
> Which skills are based on Str? 
 
Hmmm...I don't have my book on me, and I honestly can't remember, but is 
Climbing still based on STR? It was under 2nd Edition rules.  
 
> >there are skills based on INT. Because of this - even in a game that 
> >emphasizes skills over powers - INT is no more important than the other 
> >stats. 
>  
> This is not so at all, in my experience. 
 
Let me correct myself. There are probably more INT based skills than there 
are skills based on any other characteristic. Still - INT is not the only 
characteristic that affects skills, so the difference isn't as big as I 
think you suggested. 
 
> > Even if it were, this beside the point. I never said 
> > INT wasn't effective.  
>  
> Agreed, but you vastly underrated its effectiveness in your original 
> statement. 
 
Perhaps. I know I didn't do so conceptually, but its possible that I did 
so in writing. Seriously - thanks for taking the time to discuss it with 
me. I'll definitely keep this in mind for future discussions. 
 
> >My point is that if you are going to break down the 
> >effectiveness of ALL characteristics these categories need to make 
> >sense and to do so they should each make a difference in game play 
> >(otherwise the categories mean nothing). 
>  
> I can agree with that, but it didn't come out in your original post. 
 
Hmmm...well it WAS the crux of my argument (or it was meant to be). 
 
> >That is why I can't understand why you feel my argument has been refuted 
> >somehow. All I was arguing is that HERO needs to take these discrepancies 
> >into consideration when they make their benchmark tables (if they make 
> >'em). They either need to make the human maximum for INT (and maybe PRE) 
> >much higher to give the granularity such benchmark tables need - or they 
> >need to redefine the way INT works (all of Vox and Phantom's suggestions 
> >were good, IMO). 
>  
> What you're not seeing is that Hero is really designed as a *SuperHero* 
> game, where one hero will have Int 15 and another Int 40. In Heroic 
> campaigns, then the reduced differential is reflected - see my seperate 
> argument about Str. 
 
I'm all too aware of HERO's origins and what the game was designed for. 
I've been with the system since 1982. I also know that this initial design 
shapes how the system plays out in all other genres. I'll agree with you 
to that point. I don't agree that the reduced differential is reflected - 
and I have not seen your seperate argument about STR. How do you see the 
reduced differential being reflected? 
 
> >Well, that is about as clear as I can be. If you still can't see my point, 
> >I would appreciate an explanation of yours. I'd honestly be interested in 
> >hearing your logic. Thanks for your time. 
>  
> Simply that in your original post you vastly underestimated the value 
> of Int. You have since corrected this. 
 
Well, I'm glad that through discussion we have been able to come to a 
closer understanding of what I've been trying to communicate. As I said 
earlier - In my mind I have never underestimated INT, but it is possible 
that I wasn't clear enough in communicating my concerns. 
 
Take care, 
 
 
Dragonfly 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:10:33 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Kg to lbs (and back again) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 53 
 
-- Filksinger wrote: 
 
>  
> HOLD IT! 2,850 kg is _not_ 6,270 lbs. Was this initial figure given in 
> lbs or kg? If kg, we need to start over, as neither one of us has been 
> doing this correctly. 
 
	Sorry, Filksinger, old son.  2850 kg x 2.2 (the conversion for  
kilos to pounds) gives 6270 lbs with useable accuracy. 
 
 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:53:11 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 55 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
>    OK, one more question for help regarding The Ultimate Super Vehicle. 
>    I need help from those who are better informed than I about what 
> equipment should be considered "standard" for all vehicles of various 
> types.  I especially need help with air and water vehicles, since it's been 
> several years since I've been aboard either where I could get a clear of 
> the controls, and the fershlugginer Britannica doesn't have this 
> information (I remember that my old World Book did; I miss it). 
>    These are the lists as I currently have them: 
>  
>    Air Vehicles: 
> Altimeter	Plus airspeed indicator, vertical speed indicator, compass system,  
attitude indicator (which way is up?).  All of these are considered basic  
flight instruments. 
 
> Beacon Lights	Called Anti-collision lights or anti-collision strobes combined with  
position lights ( the red and green lights that are at the left and right  
extremities of the aircract) 
 
> Climate Control	Not always 
 
> Fuel Gauge	If you are going into fuel gauge level, include engine performance  
moniters (engine speed, engine exhaust tempeture, power (or torque) supplied,  
fire detection) 
 
> Interior Lights 
> Radar (360 degree, non-Discriminatory, non-Targeting)	Again, not always. 
 
> Radio (2-way)	Actually, two or three seperate radios plus some navigation beacon  
receivers 
 
> Running Lights	Helicopters also have searchlights that are rotatable as standard fit. 
 
> Seat Belts 
 
	Another component that is required to be able to fly is an IFF  
transponder to enable air traffic control to know who is flying in their  
airspace.  It also tells them how high the aircraft is. 
 
>  
>    Ground Vehicles: 
> Air Conditioning (except motorcycles) 
> Cigarette Lighter 
> Dome Light 
> Engine Thermometer 
> Fuel Gauge 
> Headlights 
> Locks for all doors 
> Lock for the ignition 
> Lock for the trunk 
> Odometer 
> Radio (AM/FM) 
> Seat Belts & Air Bag 
> Speedometer 
> Turn Signals 
> Windshield Wipers 
>  
>    Water Vehicles: 
> Fuel Gauge 
> Interior Lights 
> Lock for the ignition 
> Running Lights 
> Seat Belts 
> Speedometer	ANCHOR!!!! 
 
>  
>    As you can see, I'm going to need some help with correct terminology 
> here as well as the equipment itself. 
>    Keep in mind that this is equipment other than that directly associated 
> with moving, turning, and so forth. 
 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 18:00:45 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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X-UID: 56 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    Yeah, you're right here; they're uncommon enough that I think I'll 
> strike the bags and let them be a "pay the points" item.  (Then I gotta 
> figure out how to build them... I'm thinking of a Limited sort of Knockback 
> Resistance.) 
 
	How about 1/2 damage reduction, normal physical only, only from the  
front. 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 06:21:19 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Duplicates appear. 
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At 07:53 PM 1/14/98 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>On Tuesday, January 13, 1998 5:42 AM, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
> 
><snip> 
>> 
>>   Did you take into account:  1) Ranged is a +1/2 Advantage. 2) 
>Ranged 
>>still requires an Attack Roll vs the target hex, with Range 
>Modifiers. 3) 
>>That Teleport is Linked to Duplication. 
> 
>Ok, we'll go that route, if you insist. You forgot the 0 END on the 
>Teleport. 
> 
>Duplication, 100 pt. duplicate, Ranged, No Range Modifier, 40 pts. +15 
>OCV w/Duplication, 30 pts. Total: 70 pts. 
> 
>Duplication, 100 pt. duplicate, Linked to teleportation, 14 pts. 125" 
>Teleportation, 0 END, 375 pts. Total: 389 pts. 
> 
>OK, so it is only 5.6 times more than the Teleportation. 
> 
>>   There may be other elements to consider as well; these are just 
>the ones 
>>that came to my attention right off. 
> 
> 
>You can add in Indirect, if you wish, I suppose. It won't help nearly 
>enough, however. 
 
   Well, the Teleport method is still 'way too expensive, expecially 
considering that the character would probably never use more than 20-25" of 
it.  I'd say go with the Ranged method. 
--- 
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   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 06:24:26 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Radiation Mutation?? 
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At 09:30 PM 1/14/98 EST, KaosLlama wrote: 
>one of my players wanted to know what the chance of random mutation would be 
>under the correct ideals.. any ideas? 
 
   In real life, it's a hard call.  I think even geneticists and 
radiological scientists don't quite know the answer. 
   For game purposes, call it Plot Device -- it happens if the GM feels 
like it (generally, but not necessarily, subject to the player's approval). 
--- 
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 06:58:43 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
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At 09:25 PM 1/14/98 -0500, Daniel Pawtowski wrote: 
>>  
>>    That's probably more like it. 
>>    Hm.... perhaps an actual thermometer should be Detect with 
>> Discriminatory and Exact Measure? 
> 
>  It is going to be tricky if you try to buy every gauge individually. 
 
   That's why I'm lumping a lot of this into Everyvehicle Equipment.   :-] 
 
>Here's an idea:  How about have an airliner buy PS: Commercial Aircraft 
>(or a ship/fighter/etc buy the appropriate one) to represent the 
>engine monitoring gear?  If you want to determine what the engine temp 
>is, have the character operating it make an appropriate roll, and 
>the vehicle's skill is complimentary.  Highly automated vehicles 
>would have a higher roll.  Things like determining fuel remaining in 
>normal cruise would require no roll.  Something like using the  
>engine diagnostics to determine which piston the Desolid gremlin is 
>hiding inside would take penalties. 
 
   This, I think, is an idea for Diagnostic systems such as might be found 
on the Enterprise (or even certain real-world vehicles, methinks). 
 
>  Along these lines, I usually buy a toolbox as a Mechanic Skill rather 
>than Fine Manipulation No-Range TK, or whatever. 
 
   A toolbox IMO is Levels with Mechanics, but not the Skill itself.  :-] 
--- 
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 07:07:08 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
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At 08:56 PM 1/15/98 -0800, Rick Holding wrote: 
>-- Due to some really crappy translation from what I typed to what I  
>sent, there was something that I had written as standard equipment for  
>water craft that was made to look like part of the quote. 
> 
> The equipment?   Boat anchors.  In a push, any old computer will  
>do. 
 
   An anchor... on a speedboat? 
   Hm.  I wonder how an anchor would be written up in Hero terms? 
--- 
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Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 15:28:51 -0000 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
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>>> The power is called "Change Environment", or maybe a Transformation 
>>> attack, depending on what it is he is doing. 
> 
>BG>    So would a lightning-fast Lockpicking ability be Transform (locked  
>lock 
>BG> to unlocked lock)?  If so, why would it be more difficult to pick a lock 
>BG> with high BODY than one with low BODY? 
> 
>Note that I said, "or maybe a Transformation attack, depending on what he 
>is doing."  This is not me saying that Transformation is the way to do 
>everything, this is me sayign that Transformation may be appropriate for 
>something unusual. 
 
Well sir, if you won't allow skill levels, "only to offset time  
penalties", how would _you_ simulate someone who can do things  
extrodinarily fast? This would include using his skills as well as  
generic "Change Environment" type effects. 
 
On a Side Note: 
 
Now, I'm not saying that you do this but... 
 
Simply saying someone else's idea is not valid is little help.  
Telling the list the alternatives that you feel simulate the construct in  
question is of immense help. 
 
Just a general reminder, and not to single anyone out. 
 
David A. Fair         | 
SDS International     |     Think Different 
dfair@sdslink.com     | 
 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:18:30 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
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At 11:02 AM 1/15/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "BW" == Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes: 
> 
>BW>  A character who can react to the world at light speed, and do in a 
>BW> mere second what a normal can do in months, is a common special effect 
>BW> in speedster comics. 
> 
>The power is called "Change Environment", or maybe a Transformation attack, 
>depending on what it is he is doing. 
 
   So would a lightning-fast Lockpicking ability be Transform (locked lock 
to unlocked lock)?  If so, why would it be more difficult to pick a lock 
with high BODY than one with low BODY? 
--- 
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:18:59 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
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At 11:07 AM 1/15/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>TRG>  Why?  Because Rat says so?  Doesn't work that way.  This is the 
>TRG> best way to achieve many desired effects, effects that are part of the 
>TRG> source literature.  Why do you want to disallow valid concepts? 
> 
>Because it is not a valid concept -- normals can buy skill levels, but not 
>use them to make them go faster.  If you allow speedsters to buy "skill 
>levels: decreased time", you have radically changed how the system works 
>for a limited category of characters.  That is blatantly unfair to everyone 
>else. 
 
   Aren't a lot of mechanics limited to a limited category of characters? 
Things like STR, EC, Multipower, Martial Arts.... 
--- 
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:34:46 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Radiation Mutation?? 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
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KaosLlama writes: 
> one of my players wanted to know what the chance of random mutation would 
> be under the correct ideals.. any ideas? 
>  
Huh?  This is a somewhat unclear question (correct ideals).  In any case, the 
odds of a specific individual having a random mutation approach 100%.  The odds 
of a specific person having a mutation that _does_ anything are much lower.  
The odds of radiation exposure causing mutations in cells also approaches 100%; 
the odds of a detectable mutation roughly matches the odds of developing 
cancer, as there is essentially zero chance of a detectable mutation _other_ 
than cancer. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:21:09 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
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On 15 Jan 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> TRG> 	Why?  Because Rat says so?  Doesn't work that way.  This is the 
> TRG> best way to achieve many desired effects, effects that are part of the 
> TRG> source literature.  Why do you want to disallow valid concepts? 
>  
> Because it is not a valid concept -- normals can buy skill levels, but not 
> use them to make them go faster.  If you allow speedsters to buy "skill 
> levels: decreased time", you have radically changed how the system works 
> for a limited category of characters.  That is blatantly unfair to everyone 
> else. 
 
I think what Rat is getting at is that since skill levels don't have as 
one of their abilities "do job X in less time," it's not correct to 
"limit" the skill level by saying "only to speed up job X." Although you 
could limit a skill level "only vs. time *penalties*"--for those uncommon 
instances in play where the GM says something like "you're at -4 because 
you're trying to get done in a half-hour what should be done in an hour." 
But these situations are fuzzy GM-declared penalties. The rules don't make 
clear that there is a reverse of "extra time"--and to me, the penalties 
would be much greater for each step *down* the time chart (1/5th the 
normaltime!)--*if* I would allow them at all. 
 
In other words, Skill levels have one ability: to give +1 to a skill roll.  
I think Rat is pointing out that while you can limit the circumstances 
under which you get the +1... like "only in darkness" or "only when used 
to offset time penalties." However, under the most salient interpretation 
of the rules, +1 one to a skill roll does not equate to a faster result, 
it simply means a better result, or more specifically a greater chance for 
success. 
 
Now, that's the rules as they currently stand. Don't confuse it with my 
opinion of how things *should* be. Remember, earlier we talked about a 
skill system in which the skill roll determined how long the job took. 
Some of us found the example in the book distasteful (Chiron takes an hour 
because he's in no hurry to pick the lock that would normally take 12 
seconds, so he gets a +3--page 18). That's because, in reality we don't 
say "I'm gonna spend, um..., an hour on this," then at the end, see if we 
were successful. In reality, we start working until we succeed or realize 
we're not getting anywhere. 
 
What's needed for the skill levels vs. time to work is a mechanic like the 
one I was looking for, where the more you make your roll by, the less time 
the job takes, and if you miss it, you can keep working until the roll 
says you succeed. Mark suggested that for each 2 you make the roll by, 
step down on the time chart, for each 2 you miss by, step up on the time 
chart. The GM would obviously have to make these rolls and tick off time 
telling the player he's still working on it, until the player says he 
wants to stop, or the GM tells the player he's successful. This also helps 
the try, try again syndrome some players exhibit when they fail rolls, 
since there is not much penalty if any for retries, where possible, in the 
hero system.  
 
However, the time chart makes steps in order of magnitude, and that's a 
little too hefty for my tastes. Someone who could do job X in half the 
time is probably considered significantly more skilled than someone who 
did it in the "par" time, but our time chart doesn't allow that kind of 
flexibility. Furthermore, even the mechanic of the year can fix your car 
in a phase if the default time was 1 hour. So my complex first pass at a 
suggestion that for each 1 you make the roll by, subtract 10% from the par 
time, cumulative. This generates more realistic results, but still the GM 
must step in and cap the possibilities by what is physically possible. For 
each 1 you miss the roll by, double the time (cumulative). This way 
players can pick up more reasonable extra time bonuses continuously, if 
they are willing and able to keep working until they succeed. That is--if 
it's that kind of job. Most of the time, real-world contraints dictate how 
long someone can spend on a task. 
 
This new approach to defining how +1 to a skill correlates with time may 
or may not help your speedster. Rat points out that speedsters are a 
different class from normals, but the system has to work for both. It's 
not correct to say "if normals can't buy it, it's not legal," since 
normals usually can't buy superpowers at all. But the skill system has to 
work for both, since it's shared territory. So if I make my skill roll by 
6 or 7, I'm getting close to doing a job in half par time in my 
suggestion--but that rapidly gets expensive for speedsters. That's because 
I use skill levels to represent expertise, not a manifestation of power 
(although the SFX on a skill level can be whatever you want, that 
underlying concept model on the pricing, etc., will still be there--that's 
the "spirit" behind the letter of the system.) So, as others suggested, I 
think your speedster effects are best represented by a power. You need a 
power that will shift the par time to perform a task down by orders of 
magnitude. Speed already does this, sort of (unless we think of speed as 
just a "combat" thing)  But like levels, each doubling gets more and more 
obscenely expensive--even if you were to limit the speed "only to perform 
noncombat skills in less time, -5" it would be very expensive. The problem 
is that even at speed 12 you are considered to act only 6x faster than the 
normal man (and are entitled to only 1 "par time" bump on the time chart.) 
 
We must turn to the powers of last resort, CE and Transform, if you want 
to be "Pure HERO." CE looks good. Get the reasonable area, and define your 
CE as "any noncombat actions my character could perform in X time", and 
limit it, extra time: 1 phase. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
        \"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Cc: "aregalad@miami.edu" <aregalad@miami.edu&> 
        "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org> 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 19:08:28  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Wish: Benchmarks (was: A Sample Character) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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On Wed, 14 Jan 1998 18:42:01 -0500 (EST), aregalad@miami.edu wrote: 
 
>Howdy! 
> 
>> >My only point here is that there are skills based on PRE, DEX, STR just as 
>>  
>> Which skills are based on Str? 
> 
>Hmmm...I don't have my book on me, and I honestly can't remember, but is 
>Climbing still based on STR? It was under 2nd Edition rules.  
 
Try *none* (HSR pp 19-20) 
 
>> >there are skills based on INT. Because of this - even in a game that 
>> >emphasizes skills over powers - INT is no more important than the other 
>> >stats. 
>>  
>> This is not so at all, in my experience. 
> 
>Let me correct myself. There are probably more INT based skills than there 
>are skills based on any other characteristic. Still - INT is not the only 
>characteristic that affects skills, so the difference isn't as big as I 
>think you suggested. 
 
But it's the cheapest.  to increase the stat to give a +1 in all INT 
based skills you have to spend 5 points on INT, likewise a +1 in PRE 
based skills cost 5 pts, but for DEX based skills it costs 15 pts. 
 
>> > Even if it were, this beside the point. I never said 
>> > INT wasn't effective.  
>>  
>> Agreed, but you vastly underrated its effectiveness in your original 
>> statement. 
> 
>Perhaps. I know I didn't do so conceptually, but its possible that I did 
>so in writing. Seriously - thanks for taking the time to discuss it with 
>me. I'll definitely keep this in mind for future discussions. 
> 
>> >My point is that if you are going to break down the 
>> >effectiveness of ALL characteristics these categories need to make 
>> >sense and to do so they should each make a difference in game play 
>> >(otherwise the categories mean nothing). 
>>  
>> I can agree with that, but it didn't come out in your original post. 
> 
>Hmmm...well it WAS the crux of my argument (or it was meant to be). 
> 
>> >That is why I can't understand why you feel my argument has been refuted 
>> >somehow. All I was arguing is that HERO needs to take these discrepancies 
>> >into consideration when they make their benchmark tables (if they make 
>> >'em). They either need to make the human maximum for INT (and maybe PRE) 
>> >much higher to give the granularity such benchmark tables need - or they 
>> >need to redefine the way INT works (all of Vox and Phantom's suggestions 
>> >were good, IMO). 
>>  
>> What you're not seeing is that Hero is really designed as a *SuperHero* 
>> game, where one hero will have Int 15 and another Int 40. In Heroic 
>> campaigns, then the reduced differential is reflected - see my seperate 
>> argument about Str. 
> 
>I'm all too aware of HERO's origins and what the game was designed for. 
>I've been with the system since 1982. I also know that this initial design 
>shapes how the system plays out in all other genres. I'll agree with you 
>to that point. I don't agree that the reduced differential is reflected - 
>and I have not seen your seperate argument about STR. How do you see the 
>reduced differential being reflected? 
 
I'm having serious thoughts about the Stat/3 power curve suggested - 
after all we are precedented with DEX and CV. 
 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
>> The power is called "Change Environment", or maybe a Transformation 
>> attack, depending on what it is he is doing. 
 
BG>    So would a lightning-fast Lockpicking ability be Transform (locked lock 
BG> to unlocked lock)?  If so, why would it be more difficult to pick a lock 
BG> with high BODY than one with low BODY? 
 
Note that I said, "or maybe a Transformation attack, depending on what he 
is doing."  This is not me saying that Transformation is the way to do 
everything, this is me sayign that Transformation may be appropriate for 
something unusual. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
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Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:13:54 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> TRG> 	Why?  Because Rat says so?  Doesn't work that way.  This is the 
> TRG> best way to achieve many desired effects, effects that are part of the 
> TRG> source literature.  Why do you want to disallow valid concepts? 
> 
> Because it is not a valid concept -- normals can buy skill levels, but not 
> use them to make them go faster.  If you allow speedsters to buy "skill 
> levels: decreased time", you have radically changed how the system works 
> for a limited category of characters.  That is blatantly unfair to everyone 
> else. 
 
 
	However, any skill comes with a set amount of time to do it in. 
It is permissable to take less time with skill penalties or more time with 
skill bonuses.  There exists the mechanic for doing any type of normal 
skill more quickly than normal.  Skill levels can be used to add generally 
to the roll of a skill, or to add points to counteract negative bonuses: 
Things like, "only to offset darkness penalties", or "only to offset lack 
of equipment penalties".  Therefore, there should be no problem in a 
Speedster buying skill levels, "only to offset penalties for time taken". 
 
	Why do you have a problem with this blatantly legal and fair 
construction? 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "DF" == David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> writes: 
 
DF> Well sir, if you won't allow skill levels, "only to offset time  
DF> penalties", how would _you_ simulate someone who can do things  
DF> extrodinarily fast? This would include using his skills as well as  
DF> generic "Change Environment" type effects. 
 
With the aforementioned Change Environment.  CE does not obviate the skill 
roll; you still need to make it.  What CE does is get the job faster than 
possible for mortal man... such as assembling a car engine in 10 seconds. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:43:03 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Erratum: 
 
I wrote: 
> However, the time chart makes steps in order of magnitude, and that's a 
> little too hefty for my tastes. Someone who could do job X in half the 
> time is probably considered significantly more skilled than someone who 
> did it in the "par" time, but our time chart doesn't allow that kind of 
> flexibility. Furthermore, even the mechanic of the year can fix your car 
> in a phase if the default time was 1 hour. 
 
The "can" in the last sentence should have been "can't." A big difference. 
 So my complex first pass at a 
 
Addendum: 
 
I wrote: 
> We must turn to the powers of last resort, CE and Transform, if you want 
> to be "Pure HERO." CE looks good. Get the reasonable area, and define 
> your CE as "any noncombat actions my character could perform in X time", 
> and limit it, extra time: 1 phase.  
 
Your GM should be very careful in helping set the value of X. At the GM's 
option, if X is 1 hour (so that you can in a phase do what mere mortals do 
in an hour) and you do 1 phase worth of actions using your CE, then you 
might get the +4 "extra time" bonus. A tradeoff is that moving so fast 
costs you END. If only we had the variable CE on everybody's Christmas 
list. 
 
Frankly, I would fudge a bit and call the "area" the amount of time you 
get to perform actions (although still limiting you to the radius of your 
1-phase running speed). That way you can get faster by spending more 
points, not wider. Each +5 points would be a step on the time chart rather 
than a doubling of hex area, let's say. So X=1hour would be 20 points 
base. This qualifies for the +1 "vary environment (within tight SFX)  
"advantage listed under CE, so now we have 40 points, about right for the 
potent ability. I would then, were I your GM, require you to take the 
"increased END cost" limitation at x3 or higher. After all, you are 
pushing yourself to a hyper-speed state. This makes the choice of how fast 
you're going to go in your "time bubble" an issue, making for more 
interesting play. You will also need No Range, since the effect is 
centered on you. Were I your GM, I would further "coolify" the power by 
requiring "Requires a skill roll" (!) with your CE. I would use the 
results like a reverse complementary skill roll on your task. Failing the 
CE skill roll would give you -1 per missed pip on all tasks performed 
during hyperspeed time due to your inability to fully control your 
superspeed state. This further encourages you to set variable amounts of 
time usage, and not go "all out" all the time. Were I your GM. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 15 Jan 1998 16:44:05 -0500 
Lines: 50 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
TRG> 	However, any skill comes with a set amount of time to do it in. 
 
Yes; this is the minimum ammount of time required to accomplish the task. 
This is normally a significant chunk of one's action phase (check the BBB 
for the exact timing). 
 
TRG> It is permissable to take less time with skill penalties or more time 
TRG> with skill bonuses.  There exists the mechanic for doing any type of 
TRG> normal skill more quickly than normal. 
 
No, there exists a mechanic for doing any type of normal skill more 
*slowly* than normal, but there is not one for performing it more quickly 
outside of the GM's discretion. 
 
TRG> Skill levels can be used to add generally to the roll of a skill, or 
TRG> to add points to counteract negative bonuses: Things like, "only to 
TRG> offset darkness penalties", or "only to offset lack of equipment 
TRG> penalties".  Therefore, there should be no problem in a Speedster 
TRG> buying skill levels, "only to offset penalties for time taken". 
 
TRG> 	Why do you have a problem with this blatantly legal and fair 
TRG> construction? 
 
Because neither you nor I can assemble a car engine, an 8-hour job, in 8 
seconds, regardless of how many skill levels with Mechanics we buy, the 
same skill levels that a speedster will buy.  Why should the speedster, for 
a *LIMITATION*, get more out of his skill levels than you or I, who paid 
more for them? 
 
That is blatantly *UN*fair, regardless of the mechanical legality. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:47:35 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Subject: Re: Superspeed power  skill levels vs time 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Curt Hicks wrote: 
 
> The last time this came up, I posted somebody's suggestion for a superspeed 
> power.  Basically, for every 10 points in 'Superspeed'  it let you accomplish 
> something out of combat at the next quicker interval on the time chart.   
> I really liked the idea, unfortunately, I don't remember the author. 
 
Good. I especially like how the points work out exactly with the 
area->time CE approach. Is this a consensus in HERO? 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 22:01:56  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re:  Point Crocks????? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 14 Jan 98 23:34:04 -0800, Opal wrote: 
 
>Same goes for F/X, if Ice Knight has all ice-based powers, he's  
>virtually helpless against the nefarious Defroster, while Equinox  
>with both Fire- and Ice- based powers can torch Defroster like  
>a Christmas tree in july.  Ice Knight saves more points putting  
>everything he has in an EC, while Equinox has his powers split  
>up into an Ice-based Framework, and a Fire-based Framework, and  
>doesn't save as many.  
 
Actually, Equinox has one Framework, but VSFX (+1/4) on his powers. 
This is very near the example given on p 99 of HSR 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 22:06:53  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:18:30 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>At 11:02 AM 1/15/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>> 
>>>>>>> "BW" == Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes: 
>> 
>>BW>  A character who can react to the world at light speed, and do in a 
>>BW> mere second what a normal can do in months, is a common special effect 
>>BW> in speedster comics. 
>> 
>>The power is called "Change Environment", or maybe a Transformation attack, 
>>depending on what it is he is doing. 
> 
>   So would a lightning-fast Lockpicking ability be Transform (locked lock 
>to unlocked lock)?  If so, why would it be more difficult to pick a lock 
>with high BODY than one with low BODY? 
 
How about using something along the lines of Extra-dimensional 
Movement, Continuous 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org> 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 22:10:07  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:20:51 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
> 
> 
>> >Let's see: 
>> > 
>> >40 Multipowr 
>> > 4 u 20" Flight 
>> >14 u 20/20 Force field, 1/2 END 
>> >24 u 12d EB 
>> >-- 
>> >82 
>> 
>> This should cost a max of 52 = 40 + (3x(40/10)) 
> 
> 
>	Where do you get that?  It's allowable for slots in a MP to be 
>worth more points than the active, in which case the slot ends up paying 
>for the amount that the MP doesn't cover. This is a valid, though terribly 
>inefficient, construction. 
 
Not according to my copy of the HSR (p114). What you can do is have 
another power outside the MP which is Linked to the power in the MP. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 22:15:56  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: The STR & HA Worms 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 14 Jan 98 23:14:02 -0800, Opal wrote: 
 
> q > From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>  
> q > On 13 Jan 98 20:18:04 -0800, Opal wrote:  
> q > > t > From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>  
> q > > t > > I did _not_ say Frameworks when I meant Elemental Control. I  
> q > > t > > Frameworks", so obviously I was admitting there was more than  
> q > > t > > Multipower can easily be a far greater point crock than EC,  
> q > and VPP can be even worse.  
> q > > t >  
> q > > t > Can you get into situations with Multipower and VPP where  
> q > reducing the  
> q > > t > level of an ability results in a higher cost? (Or vice-versa) I  
> q > > t > haven't  
> q > > t > been able to find any.  
> q > > t >  
> q > >  
> q > >Let's see:  
> q > >  
> q > >40 Multipowr  
> q > > 4 u 20" Flight  
> q > >14 u 20/20 Force field, 1/2 END  
> q > >24 u 12d EB  
> q > >--  
> q > >82  
> q >  
> q > This should cost a max of 52 = 40 + (3x(40/10))  
> q > qts  
>  
>Actually, it would be 74 - there's a 40, 50, & 60 pt slot each,  
>not 3 40pt slots.  But, though clearly ineficient, it is a legal  
>construct....thus meeting tbarrie's challenge.  
 
Where does it say that the points in a multipower power can exceed the 
points in the multipower itself? One of the drawbacks of a MP is that 
it limits the total AP of the effects within the MP. 
 
Note the example on p114 of the HSR - when the player wishes to 
increase the power of an effect by 2AP, he has to increase the size of 
the MP by 2 pts. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 22:20:49  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Instead of having Everyvehicle equipment, why not do what another 
poster does with his PCs, and allow them anything that the *vehicle's* 
point level of wealth would allow? This neatly sidesteps the need for 
the GM to define everything. 
 
 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:21:45 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> DF> Well sir, if you won't allow skill levels, "only to offset time 
> DF> penalties", how would _you_ simulate someone who can do things 
> DF> extrodinarily fast? This would include using his skills as well as 
> DF> generic "Change Environment" type effects. 
> 
> With the aforementioned Change Environment.  CE does not obviate the skill 
> roll; you still need to make it.  What CE does is get the job faster than 
> possible for mortal man... such as assembling a car engine in 10 seconds. 
 
 
	Really?  That's interesting.  I'm assuming you have a book quote 
for this?  As I really can't remember CE doing anything of the sort. 
 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 15 Jan 1998 17:40:06 -0500 
Lines: 29 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
TRG> 	Really?  That's interesting.  I'm assuming you have a book quote 
TRG> for this?  As I really can't remember CE doing anything of the sort. 
 
Mabe you should read the BBB sometime.  Change Environment allows for 
practically any change to the environment (surroundings).  The only serious 
restriction on it is that it cannot have more than a superficial effect on 
combat. 
 
The "10 seconds" example is flavor. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:44:45 PST 
From: "Ceballos,John" <John_Ceballos@xn.xerox.com> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Posting-date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:50:01 -0500 
Priority: normal 
Hop-count: 3 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Please get rid of this address (John_Ceballos@xn.xerox.com) from the  
 list and replace it with ceballos@eecs.umich.edu. Thanks! 
 
---------- 
From: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Date: Thursday, January 15, 1998 7:28AM 
 
>>> The power is called "Change Environment", or maybe a Transformation 
>>> attack, depending on what it is he is doing. 
> 
>BG>    So would a lightning-fast Lockpicking ability be Transform (locked  
>lock 
>BG> to unlocked lock)?  If so, why would it be more difficult to pick a lock 
>BG> with high BODY than one with low BODY? 
> 
>Note that I said, "or maybe a Transformation attack, depending on what he 
>is doing."  This is not me saying that Transformation is the way to do 
>everything, this is me sayign that Transformation may be appropriate for 
>something unusual. 
 
Well sir, if you won't allow skill levels, "only to offset time  
penalties", how would _you_ simulate someone who can do things  
extrodinarily fast? This would include using his skills as well as  
generic "Change Environment" type effects. 
 
On a Side Note: 
 
Now, I'm not saying that you do this but... 
 
Simply saying someone else's idea is not valid is little help.  
Telling the list the alternatives that you feel simulate the construct in  
question is of immense help. 
 
Just a general reminder, and not to single anyone out. 
 
David A. Fair         | 
SDS International     |     Think Different 
dfair@sdslink.com     | 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:49:29 -0800 (PST) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
> > TRG> 	Why?  Because Rat says so?  Doesn't work that way.  This is the 
> > TRG> best way to achieve many desired effects, effects that are part of the 
> > TRG> source literature.  Why do you want to disallow valid concepts? 
> >  
> > Because it is not a valid concept -- normals can buy skill levels, but not 
> > use them to make them go faster.  If you allow speedsters to buy "skill 
>  
> I think what Rat is getting at is that since skill levels don't have as 
> one of their abilities "do job X in less time," it's not correct to 
> "limit" the skill level by saying "only to speed up job X." Although you 
> --and to me, the penalties 
> would be much greater for each step *down* the time chart (1/5th the 
> normaltime!)--*if* I would allow them at all. 
> 
	[Major snip of lots of useful points]  
>  
> We must turn to the powers of last resort, CE and Transform, if you want 
> to be "Pure HERO." CE looks good. Get the reasonable area, and define your 
> CE as "any noncombat actions my character could perform in X time", and 
> limit it, extra time: 1 phase. 
>  
	I think you have a good point here. 
So it seems a good choice would to be use Change Environment to allow me to 
all the things I normally could given any amount of time in a single moment. 
	Then use a normal skill roll to see if I can suceed at those things 
given my skill knowledge of them and ability to do the task in the first place. 
 
	I don't think the tranform would need to come into play here just yet. 
Not unless I could do something 'unusual' given 'all that time'. 
 
 
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow. 
 
"The CCG is a natural extension of the Operating Sys... Er, Role Playing 
System." --- Something I swear Richard Garfield (WoTC) must have said at 
some point. 
 
Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html 
My Champions Webpage is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/ 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:51:36 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 02:16 PM 1/15/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
> 
>>> The power is called "Change Environment", or maybe a Transformation 
>>> attack, depending on what it is he is doing. 
> 
>BG>    So would a lightning-fast Lockpicking ability be Transform (locked 
lock 
>BG> to unlocked lock)?  If so, why would it be more difficult to pick a lock 
>BG> with high BODY than one with low BODY? 
> 
>Note that I said, "or maybe a Transformation attack, depending on what he 
>is doing."  This is not me saying that Transformation is the way to do 
>everything, this is me sayign that Transformation may be appropriate for 
>something unusual. 
 
   Well, I can't see a lightning-fast Lockpicking being a Change 
Environment. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:04:38 -0600 (CST) 
Subject: Superspeed power  skill levels vs time 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
(pardon the possible repost, I haven't seen this show up yet.) 
 
 
The last time this came up, I posted somebody's suggestion for a superspeed 
power.  Basically, for every 10 points in 'Superspeed'  it let you accomplish 
something out of combat at the next quicker interval on the time chart.   
I really liked the idea, unfortunately, I don't remember the author. 
 
 
Curt Hicks 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 15 Jan 1998 18:06:41 -0500 
Lines: 42 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BW" == Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes: 
 
BW> 	I think you have a good point here. 
BW> So it seems a good choice would to be use Change Environment to allow 
BW> me to all the things I normally could given any amount of time in a 
BW> single moment. 
BW> 	Then use a normal skill roll to see if I can suceed at those things 
BW> given my skill knowledge of them and ability to do the task in the 
BW> first place. 
 
This is almost exactly what I said, just a bit longer. :) 
 
BW> 	I don't think the tranform would need to come into play here just yet. 
BW> Not unless I could do something 'unusual' given 'all that time'. 
 
A Transformation Attack could be used when you do not have the requisite 
skill.  To wit, lacking Lockpicking, you transform a locked lock into an 
unlocked lock.  To forestall the BODY question, the reason a bigger lock 
(more BODY) is harder to open than a smaller one (less BODY) in this 
fashion is because you are not picking the lock you are changing it at a 
more fundamental level. 
 
Anyone wondering how a "Wizard Lock" worked?  Now you know; it is the 
reverse of this. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:23:32 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> TRG> 	Really?  That's interesting.  I'm assuming you have a book quote 
> TRG> for this?  As I really can't remember CE doing anything of the sort. 
> 
> Mabe you should read the BBB sometime.  Change Environment allows for 
> practically any change to the environment (surroundings).  The only serious 
> restriction on it is that it cannot have more than a superficial effect on 
> combat. 
 
 
	However, I have a real problem with CE affecting "objects".  IE, I 
can see it being used to straighten up a room or switching around a few 
cards, but using it to chop down a tree or take apart an engine is too 
powerful. 
 
	This power is designed to affect the "environment".  The problem 
is defining the environment.  Could I, for example, write out a computer 
program at incredible speed with this?  Is the computer part of the 
environment?  How about picking the pockets of some nearby bystanders? 
They're not part of the action, so there's no combat effect.  Is this 
permissible? 
 
	Your interpretation gives the power too much power, IMO. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:28:52 -0800 
        matt@greenapple.com, david1001@geocities.com, 
        Hero Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org&> 
        Joel Greenwade <NOYZsYzOp@aol.com&> Kevin Walters <KWalt@aol.com&> 
        klockk@klock.com, "Michael L. Nunn" <MLNunn@scrtc.blue.net&> 
        rick@flyingbuffalo.com, sjgraves@coqui.net, sfannon@mail.ieidesign.com, 
        shelley@mactyre.net, Steve Today <sftoday@netwave.net&> 
        SteveL1979@aol.com, Will Austin <wga@po.cwru.edu&> 
        Erik Yocum <ecy@umich.edu&> Dave Mattingly <DaveM@FocusSoft.com&> 
        "Stephen B. Mann" <smann@cnsvax.albany.edu&> 
        Leslie Richardson <lrichard@minn.net&> 
        Steve McGinness <smcginn@csm.exeter.ac.uk&> 
        Miq Millman <miq@teleport.com&> Brian Wong <rook@sanfran.infinex.com&> 
        Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com&> 
        Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net&> 
        Charles Badger <wbandsis@westco.net&> 
        Steven Wells <slwells@ucdavis.edu&> Guy Hoyle <ghoyle1@airmail.net&> 
        Brad Short <Firelynx16@aol.com&> "Keith E. Bryan" <Spobb@aol.com&> 
        Duane Morris <duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca&> 
        Doug Mowery <rlewis@lonestar.utsa.edu&> 
        Dwayne Tucker <dstucker@sprynet.com&> 
        Mark Barltrop <tachyon@kzin.softnet.co.uk&> 
        Len Undy <bryce144@fan.net.au&> 
        Larry Woestman <Larry@hpcvxljw.cv.hp.com&> 
        Chris Goodwin <archer@peak.org&> 
        Scott Nyquist <scott_nyquist@om.cv.hp.com> 
From: Colleen Greenwade <colleen.greenwade@klock.com> (by way of Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com&> 
Subject: Fw: A little one in need.....please help 
Cc: brucehh@aol.com, mlnunn@aol.com 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>Reply-To: "James & Monique Doherty" <jdoherty@terrigal.net.au> 
>From: "James & Monique Doherty" <jdoherty@terrigal.net.au> 
>To: "Terri" <llibby@oz.net&> "Tabitha" <yel@bitstorm.net&> 
>        "Sueben" <sueben@n-link.com&> 
>        "Pam & Gordan Oates" <pamoates@gist.net.au&> 
>        "Margie" <duncanmp@southcom.com.au&> 
>        "Susan Logan" <tlogan@mindspring.com&> 
>        "Colleen Greenwade" <colleen.greenwade@klock.com&> 
>        "ECpert" <juliec@mail.chariot.net.au&> 
>        "Dreamsaver" <dreamsaver@webtv.net&> 
>        "Leah & calvin" <leahandcalvin@juno.com&> 
>        "Brenda" <luvmykdz@webtv.net&> "Mark & Lise Bower" 
<mlbower@midco.net> 
>Subject: Fw: A little one in need.....please help 
>Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:38:02 +1100 
>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 
>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 
> 
> 
>-----Original Message----- 
>From: Julie Chardon <juliec@mail.chariot.net.au> 
>To: JeanBean1@webtv.net <JeanBean1@webtv.net> 
>Date: Thursday, 15 January 1998 5:07 
> 
> 
>> 
>> >>> >Dear All, 
>>> >>> >I just received this mail from a friend of mine  
>>in my College.  Please respond to it. It will just mean 
>>employing a little bit of time and won't cost you a 
>>penny. All it needs is the heart for  you to send this 
>>mail. PLEASE pass this mail on to everybody you know.  
>>It is the request of a little girl who will soon leave 
>>this world as she has been a victim  of the terrible 
>>disease called CANCER. Thank you for your effort, this 
>>isn't  a chain letter, but a choice for all of us to 
>>provide some comfort to a little girl that's  dying of a 
>>serious and fatal form of cancer. 
>> >Please send this to everyone you know...  or don't know. 
>>This little girl has 6 months left to live, and as her 
>>dying wish,she wanted to send a chain letter telling 
>>everyone to live their life to fullest, since she never  
>>will.  She'll never make it to prom, graduate from high 
>>school, or get married and have a family of  her own.  
>>By you sending this to as many people as possible, you 
>>can give her and her family a little hope, because with 
>>every 
>>name that this is sent to, The American Cancer Society 
>>will donate 3 cents per name to her treatment and 
>>recovery plan.  One guy sent this to 500 people!!!!  
>>So,I know that we can send it to at least 5 or 6.  Come 
>>on you 
>>guys.... and if you're too selfish to take 10-15 minutes 
>>scrolling this and forwarding it to EVERYONE, then you 
>>are one sick person. 
>> >Just think it  could be you one day.  It's not even 
>>your_money_,just  your time!!! 
>>> >>> > 
>>> >>> >           PLEASE PASS ON 
>>> >>> > 
>>> >>> >Dr. Dennis Shields 
>>> >>> >Professor 
>>> >>> >Department of Developmental and Molecular Biology 
>>> >>> >Albert Einstein College of Medicine of Yeshiva 
>>University 
>>> >>> >1300 Morris Park Avenue 
>>> >>> >Bronx, New York 10461 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Point Crocks????? 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 4,11,18,21,26-29 
From: willypete1@juno.com (WILLIAM A PETERSON) 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:55:52 EST 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
	I've spent much time and effort trying to deal with the various 
'point crocks' inherent to Champions, and all I can really say is that it 
is a thankless task.  No matter how you  tweak it, you still can't please 
everyone any of the time, and only rarely can you please even yourself 
more than some of the time. 
	My current theory (as yet unproven), is that the best idea is to 
limit character's Active point totals (after advantages, but before 
limitations), and not place any limit(other than being able to pay for it 
all) on 'Real' points.  This still doesn't help things like hand-to-hand 
attack or aid (where the wrong cost was assigned in the first place), and 
I still am unsure as to what the 'Active' cost of a Framework should be, 
but I think it is a good start. 
	The simple truth is that some game systems are much better at 
modelling some things than others.  The whole 'Speedster Tricks' 
discussion would never have come up on the DC Heroes mailing list--just 
give the character Superspeed, and you're all set.  You don't have to 
worry about using Transformation attacks, Skill Levels, or Change 
Environment (of course, that's true of Champions, too--if you can afford 
a Speed of 144!).  Does this mean that DC Heroes is perfectly balanced? 
Hah!  Each game has it's own strong points, and I have yet to see one 
game combine the strong points of both, without getting hopelessly 
muddled. 
	Yes, Champions is hopelessly broken, in that it does not (and 
never will) have a character generation system that satisfies everybody.  
Once you get past character generation, though (and I know just how hard 
that is), Champions is still one of the best games to play on this planet 
or any other (and no, I don't include Fuzion in that comment).  
Thank you, 
William Anders Peterson 
WillyPete1@juno.com 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Hurting yourself 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,4-7 
From: willypete1@juno.com (WILLIAM A PETERSON) 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:55:53 EST 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
It all depends on the 'feel' you want. 
In the real world, people hurt themselves all the time...although trained 
martial artists much less so.  In the comic books, the only characters 
who manage to do so are the ones with the large 'Kick Me' signs on thier 
backs--the ones put there for comic relief. 
Thank you, 
William Anders Peterson 
WillyPete1@juno.com 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:34:38 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Superspeed power  skill levels vs time 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:04 PM 1/15/98 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote: 
> 
>(pardon the possible repost, I haven't seen this show up yet.) 
> 
>The last time this came up, I posted somebody's suggestion for a superspeed 
>power.  Basically, for every 10 points in 'Superspeed'  it let you accomplish 
>something out of combat at the next quicker interval on the time chart.   
>I really liked the idea, unfortunately, I don't remember the author. 
 
   Literally seconds before I saw this post, this very thing occurred to 
me.  I was going to suggest 5 points per level, but 10 seems arguably more 
reasonable. 
   Basically, though, I think we're going to wait until The Ultimate 
Speedster and/or Fifth Edition Hero System come out to really have this 
matter settled. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:05:56 -0500 
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> 
Subject: Re: Fw: A little one in need.....please help 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 08:15 PM 1/15/98 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
>>>>mail. PLEASE pass this mail on to everybody you know.  
>>>>It is the request of a little girl who will soon leave 
>>>>this world as she has been a victim  of the terrible 
>>>>disease called CANCER. 
> 
>This is an old, old HOAX that people keep perpetuating for some sick reason. 
>There is no sick little girl who wants to start a chain letter. The American 
>Cancer Society is not giving money away on a per letter basis - if they were 
>smart people would be buying spam lists and making large sums of money. 
> 
 
Yeah, but ya know ... I just never get tired of hearing this one! 
 
Hey, do you suppose next they could tell us the one about Internet 
per-minute charges?  I love that one! 
 
======================  ================================================= 
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed  
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is  
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead 
======================  ================================================= 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:15:54 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Hurting yourself 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>It all depends on the 'feel' you want. 
>In the real world, people hurt themselves all the time...although trained 
>martial artists much less so.  In the comic books, the only characters 
>who manage to do so are the ones with the large 'Kick Me' signs on thier 
>backs--the ones put there for comic relief. 
 
Not true. While a single example does not prove the rule, I can distintly 
remember a case of Sabretooth punching Wolvie in the jaw and breaking his 
own hand. The point is that in the comic books people usually are smart 
about the things they punch - i.e. Daredevil doesn't try to deck Colossus. 
Player characters won't necessarily be that smart - though it'll only take a 
few broken knuckles to teach them better :-). In general, this rule will 
only truly affect martial artists attacking high DEF structures/people - 
every other character concept will generally have enough personal DEF to 
avoid damage, or doesn't use hand to hand combat. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:15:59 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Fw: A little one in need.....please help 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>>> >>> >Dear All, 
>>>> >>> >I just received this mail from a friend of mine  
>>>in my College.  Please respond to it. It will just mean 
>>>employing a little bit of time and won't cost you a 
>>>penny. All it needs is the heart for  you to send this 
>>>mail. PLEASE pass this mail on to everybody you know.  
>>>It is the request of a little girl who will soon leave 
>>>this world as she has been a victim  of the terrible 
>>>disease called CANCER. 
 
This is an old, old HOAX that people keep perpetuating for some sick reason. 
There is no sick little girl who wants to start a chain letter. The American 
Cancer Society is not giving money away on a per letter basis - if they were 
smart people would be buying spam lists and making large sums of money. 
 
Congradulations, you have been conned. Please inform all the people you just 
inadvertantly lied to that this is indeed a hoax. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org> 
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> 
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 02:10:04 +0000 
Subject: Cost of Ego SPD? 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 8 
 
 
I recently built a mentalist (something that I seldom do) and I ran into a  
problem that I had never encountered before. The rules in the BBB say that a  
mentalist has an 'Ego Speed' used for calculating when he gets to use EGO  
powers. (Many GMs I know ignore this rule). The formula given is that  
ESPD = 1 + (EGO/10), but there is no cost given for buying extra ESPD. Is it 1  
per 1 as with normal SPD, or is it cheaper (since EGO is cheaper than DEX)? 
 
--  
 Stirling Westrup  |  Use of the Internet by this poster 
 sti@cam.org       |  is not to be construed as a tacit 
                   |  endorsement of Western Technological 
                   |  Civilization or its appurtenances. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org> 
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> 
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 02:29:23 +0000 
Subject: Re: Magic Shapeshifting Potions 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 9 
 
So Sayeth Joe Claffey Jr. <jrc@mail1.nai.net&> 
 
> "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> asks, 
> > 
> >So how do you model the classical fantasy 'magic potion', such that a player 
> >character can find one in a chest and be able to use it. Drinking it lets the 
> >hero turn into any animal he wants, for up to 1 hour. 
>  
>  Usually a VPP: Animal Powers, used with a Universal Expendable Focus. 
 
This is very expensive, since the VPP pool doesn't get the point break for  
being a focus. Thus an independant 30pt VPP will cost the poor alchemist 30  
EXPERIENCE POINTS to make the potion. No one would ever be willing. 
 
> >And after you've modeled the potion, how do you model the alchemist who 
> >makes a living creating and selling such potions? 
> > 
> >This problem seems to be a perennial one in Fantasy Hero games. 
>  
> The system that I'm working on treats the potions as Universal Expendable 
> Foci. They take a lot of Extra Time to create (typically a week). Many 
> require ingredients that are difficult to find. 
 
I've considered this, but it has a side effect that if I have N charges, and I  
sell 1/2 of my potions to a very cautious person who saves them 'just in case',  
then I may be stuck unable to recover 1/2 my charges for the next 30 years  
because they are lingering on someone's shelf. One could buy charges that  
automatically decay over time. (Potion: Water Breathing, Best Before: June 8),  
but then you would never find unspoiled potions in dusty old treasure-chests  
guarded by dragons. 
 
Anyway, I've been talking to a couple of the list members in private about this  
problem, and I've come up with a fairly ricketty set of alchemist/builder rules  
for building independant object that don't suffer these limitations. Once I get  
them into a more stable and comprehensible shape, I'll publish them to this  
list. 
--  
 Stirling Westrup  |  Use of the Internet by this poster 
 sti@cam.org       |  is not to be construed as a tacit 
                   |  endorsement of Western Technological 
                   |  Civilization or its appurtenances. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:48:06 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: TUSV:Radically changing vehicle costs... 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:32 AM 1/13/98 -0800, Lizard wrote: 
>When I was using Champions for a space opera game, one thing I noticed was 
>that humongous battlewagons were far too cheap relative to grav cars, tramp 
>freighters, and jet belts. Then I found a very reasonable way to balance 
>this, at the cost (as it were) of making large vehicles very expensive: 
> 
 
Well, done out in my own format humongous battlewagons were expensive  
and TOUGH, and the more expensive a power the easier it was to hit. 
 
 
>Buy all powers (armor, running, flight, life support) with enough area 
>effect to cover the vehicle. (Or not...buy life support only for the crew 
>quarters, for example.) 
> 
>This makes buying a Star Destroyer a LOT more costly, points-wise, than 
>buying an X-Wing. 
> 
 
When designing my 3d combat system i required that all life support be  
bought like this: AE for all aplicable hexes, same for force fields, ect. 
 
>Also for TUSV:Crew requirements, with the 'Large Crew' limitation and 
>'Small Crew' advantage. Possibly even base crew requirements off the active 
>cost for powers (say, 1 person/20 active points, with adjustments for tech 
>level, etc?) So that your super-mega-death-cannon, 10d6 KA, needs a crew of 
>seven to man it? (That's a bit high, actually, so my numbers might be 
>off...maybe 1 person/40 active points? I dunno. That's why YOU'RE the writer!) 
> 
 
If your interested in alternative combet rules, think around the idea of  
each crewmember contributing their spd to the ship, and having to be qualified  
in the area they 'staff'. . . yeah i know this makes them tougher again, 
but we're talking about kilometer-long kablammo-class borg busters here, and  
it will increase overall cost. .  
 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:54:26 +1000 
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Subject: Re: TUSV:Radically changing 
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 09:26 PM 1/13/98 -0800, Opal wrote: 
>To: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>  
> l >  
> l > When I was using Champions for a space opera game, one thing I noticed  
> l > that humongous battlewagons were far too cheap relative to grav cars,  
> l > freighters, and jet belts. Then I found a very reasonable way to  
> l > this, at the cost (as it were) of making large vehicles very  
> l > expensive:  
> l >  
>  
>Actually, no, I haven't noticed this.  What I have noticed is that  
>large vehicles are pop targets - you can't much more than punch  
>through a bulkhead without destroying the vehicle, and that a tiny  
>vehicle has a great advantage in combat, unless you tie Apts to  
>mass somehow.  
>  
 
wellllll, in my 3da system *each* hex has the base body of the ship, based on size. 
hull and superstructure units have full body (base plus bonuses), but the ship 
starts to 'shake apart' if too many hexes are destroyed. As for size, I set up powers 
based on size, so that the more space it took up, the more of a limitation the power 
got- 25% more hexes for a -1/4 for instance.  
 
> l > Buy all powers (armor, running, flight, life support) with enough area  
> l > effect to cover the vehicle. (Or not...buy life support only for the  
> l > quarters, for example.)  
> l >  
>  
>In some instances, this can make sense.  I'd like to see the vehicle's  
>BOD count for each hex or something like that, too.  That would help  
>justify the huge cost.  
>  
 
you see? you see??!! i'm not mad! (*l*) 
 
 
>  
>___  
> * OFFLINE 1.58  
> 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:13:00 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> TRG> 	However, any skill comes with a set amount of time to do it in. 
> 
> Yes; this is the minimum ammount of time required to accomplish the task. 
> This is normally a significant chunk of one's action phase (check the BBB 
> for the exact timing). 
 
	Yes, yes.  You're on the right track. 
 
> TRG> It is permissable to take less time with skill penalties or more time 
> TRG> with skill bonuses.  There exists the mechanic for doing any type of 
> TRG> normal skill more quickly than normal. 
> 
> No, there exists a mechanic for doing any type of normal skill more 
> *slowly* than normal, but there is not one for performing it more quickly 
> outside of the GM's discretion. 
 
	Hmmm.  Maybe just a logical conclusion I've been using.  In any 
case, the situation must exist where a character can perform a skill 
quicker.  It's in the literature:  Character N needs to diffuse very 
complex bomb; this would normally take 1 minute, the GM rules; however, 
the timer is down to 3, meaning only 1 phase for Character N to act; the 
GM says, "go for it" and assigns a penalty. 
 
	Now, the key here is deciding on a fair penalty structure.  I 
agree it should be pretty expensive for each step down the time chart.  2 
pts per is OK, 3 sounds real good, 5 seems too expensive.  I.E, a -2, -3, 
or -5.  Or possibly something like -2 for first step down, -4 for second, 
-8 for third, etc. 
 
	Anyway, the need is there for an ordered mechanic to do this.  As 
a speedster can move faster than a normal, he/she should be better at 
doing this, taking levels to counteract the penalties.  Note that this 
means some other people can do things quicker.  Note, though, that this 
penalty means things aren't achieved by as high a roll.  I.E, the heart 
surgeon moves things down a step and has to make a roll at 11- rather than 
13-.  He rolls the 11-.  He does it, but it isn't the best job ever 
leading to possible post-op complications.  If he takes his time, the 
cusion means things are fine. 
 
 
> TRG> Skill levels can be used to add generally to the roll of a skill, or 
> TRG> to add points to counteract negative bonuses: Things like, "only to 
> TRG> offset darkness penalties", or "only to offset lack of equipment 
> TRG> penalties".  Therefore, there should be no problem in a Speedster 
> TRG> buying skill levels, "only to offset penalties for time taken". 
 
> 
> Because neither you nor I can assemble a car engine, an 8-hour job, in 8 
> seconds, regardless of how many skill levels with Mechanics we buy, the 
> same skill levels that a speedster will buy.  Why should the speedster, for 
> a *LIMITATION*, get more out of his skill levels than you or I, who paid 
> more for them? 
 
	But he has *less* ability with these skill levels.  He can't use 
them just as general plusses to his roll, etc.  He won't be able to make 
his roll by as much (achieving more), etc. 
 
> That is blatantly *UN*fair, regardless of the mechanical legality. 
 
 
	I can see your point.  It doesn't make sense to allow a normal to 
do the same things with his/her skill levels.  There is, however, a way to 
justify the fact that the speedster has this ability:  He has paid points 
for powers and characteristics that represent a super speed character.  As 
he has done this, it is within concept and SFX to do the skill at this 
speed, albeit with penalties.  Its not that he's getting more for less, he 
has paid quite a bit for his package. 
 
	I could see allowing the specialized skill levels at no 
disadvantage level, that would seem to work.  How's that sound? 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
Subject: Re: Point Crocks????? 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:17:26 -0600 
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From: WILLIAM A PETERSON <willypete1@juno.com> 
 
 
> I've spent much time and effort trying to deal with the various 
>'point crocks' inherent to Champions, and all I can really say is that it 
>is a thankless task.  No matter how you  tweak it, you still can't please 
>everyone any of the time, and only rarely can you please even yourself 
>more than some of the time. 
 
 
I don't play or run Champions for thanks or even gratitude, since it is a 
game I play it for fun/entertainment.  Just like arguing on this list. :) 
Thank you for putting "point crocks" in quotes.  I always do because to me 
it is a misnomer for:  Useful Point Saving Feature. 
 
> My current theory (as yet unproven), is that the best idea is to 
>limit character's Active point totals (after advantages, but before 
>limitations), and not place any limit(other than being able to pay for it 
>all) on 'Real' points.  This still doesn't help things like hand-to-hand 
>attack or aid (where the wrong cost was assigned in the first place), and 
>I still am unsure as to what the 'Active' cost of a Framework should be, 
>but I think it is a good start. 
 
Great idea, an improvement is to limit powers to Damage Classes, as well. 
Please note:  that I base Damage Classes on the damaging ability of the 
power instead of the less than useful Active Points / 5 that is given as one 
example in the book.  That would fix your problem with HA attacks.  If you 
are dead certain that AID is too cheap or that it is too unbalancing of a 
power to your game either increase the cost, impose manadatory limitations, 
or eliminate it completely from your games.  Your choice, part of the Beauty 
that is, HERO! 
 
> The simple truth is that some game systems are much better at 
>modelling some things than others.  The whole 'Speedster Tricks' 
>discussion would never have come up on the DC Heroes mailing list--just 
>give the character Superspeed, and you're all set.  You don't have to 
>worry about using Transformation attacks, Skill Levels, or Change 
>Environment (of course, that's true of Champions, too--if you can afford 
>a Speed of 144!).  Does this mean that DC Heroes is perfectly balanced? 
>Hah!  Each game has it's own strong points, and I have yet to see one 
>game combine the strong points of both, without getting hopelessly 
>muddled. 
 
Yes, you do see, you are possibly one of the chosen. (twinkling sound 
effects or raspy voice.)  :)  Those lesser systems that build very useful 
constructs like super-speed, do so by cutting down on the flexibility of the 
system and limit the creativeness of the players and GMs. 
 
> Yes, Champions is hopelessly broken, in that it does not (and 
>never will) have a character generation system that satisfies everybody. 
 
 
Understanding is a three-edged sword and you have just cut me or yourself 
"hopelessly broken" and "doesn't satisfy everybody" do not go together in 
the same sentence.  I like chocolate, you like something else, Chocolate not 
broken, Chocolate GOOD.  Mongo like Chocolate.  There are millions of people 
in just this country, billions on this planet alone,  who think that all 
RPGs are either all-crock or Rocket Propelled Grenades.  These people don't 
like the "Chocolate" that is Hero.  They may like the pistachio walnut cream 
that is Golfing.  More power to them, whatever floats their boat, tilts 
their kilt, puts starch in their shorts or gives them the reason/excuse to 
socialize and have a good time. 
 
>Once you get past character generation, though (and I know just how hard 
>that is), Champions is still one of the best games to play on this planet 
>or any other (and no, I don't include Fuzion in that comment). 
>Thank you, 
 
No, William, Thank You.  Although you have committed a near-sacrilege in 
front of the gods of Hero, (by stating one of the best instead of The BEST) 
, you have indeed shown that you possess the keys to enlightenment.  Please 
use them wisely and don't lock them in accidentally.  (Notice that best and 
beast are only one letter apart.) 
 
I'm a Hero, you're a Hero, wouldn't you like to be a Hero too. 
 
Alan 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Reply-To: <> 
From: "\"Jim Dickinson\" <champion@cyberhighway.net>&q> 
        <champion@cyberhighway.net> 
Subject: Re: A little one in need.....please help 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:18:13 -0800 
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---------- 
> From: Colleen Greenwadeby way of Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
<colleen.greenwade@klock.com> 
> To: champ-l@omg.org 
> Cc: brucehh@aol.com; mlnunn@aol.com 
> Subject: Fw: A little one in need.....please help 
> Date: Thursday, January 15, 1998 9:01 PM 
>  
 
Just in case there is anyone else out there who doesn't know, the CIAC has 
identified this and other chain letters and hoaxes for your information: 
 
http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACChainLetters.html 
http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html 
 
This is the kind of email that should be forwarded to everyone you 
know...so that everyone can become a little more well informed regarding 
these Internet phenomena. 
 
Have a better day! 
Jim 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
Subject: Re: Point Crocks????? 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:39:18 -0600 
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-----Original Message----- 
 
From: Opal <Opal@october.com> 
 
>To expand upon this slightly, the point savings you experience in 
>Hero can also be a result of the system recognizing that several 
>simillar abilities are not each as useful when taken together 
>as any one of them is alone...  That may be hard to follow but 
>it's a simple principle of 'diminishing returns' 
 
 
I follow your point, one wife good, two wives, better, but difference 
between no wife and one wife bigger difference than difference between one 
wife and two wife. 
 
>For instance, in hero, having a 2d RKA is 30 pts better than not 
>having one.  So is a 6d EB (stun).  Having both of them at once 
>can also be pretty useful - you have the option of injuring or 
>stunning your opponent.  Still there will be times when you just 
>want to *stop* the person you're blasting and are indiferent to 
>how you do so.  At times when either attack is equally useful, 
>you're really on getting 30 pts worth of utility out of your 60pts 
>in attacks. (this assumes that you come down on the side of the 
>GLD that says you can't fire two unlinked attacks simultaneously - 
>but, even if you do a 2d KA + 6d EB is decidedly inferior to a 
>4d KA or 12d EB). 
 
 
You said linked.  You must be punished.  :) 
 
>But, it's contingent on knowing the system - if Ice Knight's 
>player had no idea that he could buy an EC, he'd lose points 
>compared to Equinox *and* run into the same problem with the 
>Defroster....  Hero is a complicated game, and it works better 
>if you know it really well - but I think the people who like 
>Hero like it that way.  For everyone else, there's Fuzion... 
 
 
yyyyyyyyyeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaahhhhh.   He's a believer, praise the power 
points, I am so happy.  Note: I am not being facetious or sarcastic. 
 
An earlier reply in favor of believing that Hero is "hopelessly broke" used 
an example that these imagined "point crocks" stopped characters from being 
compared based on point value alone.  He was of course correct.  However, as 
long as we allow flexibility, we are faced with different people building 
their characters differently and for the same number of points being more or 
less powerful.  Points spent like money spent can only be a guesstimate of 
actual value, it can never be an end-all, be-all power indicator.  A student 
of mine is buying a house that has 400 sq ft more than mine but costs almost 
exactly what mine appraises for, in similar neighborhoods.  He is getting a 
deal, in other words.  A Hero example would be One-Hit Boy.  EB so strong 
that it uses his entire END, lots of levels to OCV and a 12 SPD.  But that 
is okay, because he will almost always get hit and die if the villains hit 
him first because of a low DCV and no defenses.  One on one he will win 
almost every time.  Let him miss once or get taken by surprise, or try to 
fight more than one villain, and he is toast.  Is he more powerful, well 
most of the time yes.  He does win "fair" one-on-one combat nearly without 
fail.  But does he use more points than someone who spends their points more 
wisely no.  Same points, more power.  The only way to stop it is to limit 
flexibility.  There are plenty of other games that limit flexibility.  Hero 
isn't it.  If you want less flexibility, play Hero.  Afterall, Hero is so 
flexible that it allows you to make it less flexible.  Truly the supreme 
mother of all flexibility. 
 
Hero is GRRRRREAT.  (Yelled by large orange tiger.) 
 
Alan 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
Subject: Re: Point  Crocks?????? 
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:45:32 -0600 
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-----Original Message----- 
From: Opal <Opal@october.com> 
>I'm not, and I was.  I was going to say so to, but I couldn't remember 
>how to spell facetious.  :) 
 
 
I am glad, I couldn't help but think less of your reasoning abilities after 
your initial post that got me started on my tirade.  My chain has been 
electronically yanked.  But I'm getting better. 
 
Thanks,  Alan. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 00:26:47 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
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> >         I could see allowing the specialized skill levels at no 
> > disadvantage level, that would seem to work.  How's that sound? 
> > 
> 
> 	Why should somebody take a penality to his effectiveness 
> and not get any points back for it.  Certainly if it is not a 
> limitation, then sure.  But if it limits his choices as to how the 
> skill levels can be applied, he is entitled to a refund.  How big? 
 
 
	Big enough to offset the advantage gained by being able to use 
them in ways others cannot.  You just wouldn't allow a normal to put 
together an engine in 1 phase, skill levels or not.  It is because of 
their SFX that they are *allowed* to attempt to do these things.  The 
skill levels have this ability for everyone, only the speedsters can 
utilize it.  (That's not exactly true, I can think of a few other SFX that 
can do the same sorts of things.) 
 
	I think that's enough to call the modifier a +-0 one. 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 01:38:22 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunnn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Subject: Shadis Article 
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In the latest Shadis magazine they have a very cool article set up like a 
catalogue full of anti-vampire weapons.  They presented write-up's of these 
for Vampire, Gurps, and Hunter's Inc.  Since I am running a vampire slayer 
game I converted these over to Hero. ***Note these are for the level of my 
game not true conversions.*** 
 
Cost 
 
24 9D6 Energy Blast,"Tunnel Rhino",vs physical defense, OAF(-1 1/2), 
bulky,Extra Time(-1/4),only to start power, 6 Charges(-3/4),x1 Armor 
Piercing(+1/2), Explosion (+1/2)	 
 
14 2 1/2D6 Killing Attack - Ranged,"Kaleshnikov IR Laser",OAF(-1 3/4), 
bulky, fragile,  14- Activation(1/2),Affects Desolidified (+1/2),5-6 
Charges(-3/4)	 
 
10 16" Change Environment,"SS-9000 Water Gun",Holy Water,OAF(-1),8 
Charges(-1/2), continuing	 
 
16 2D6+1 Killing Attack - Ranged,"Splat-O Stake Injector",vs physical 
defense,OAF(-1),1 Charges(-2), Reduced by Range (-1/4), Invisible Power 
Effects(+1/2),Hearing Group, Penetrating  (+1/2) 
 
31 2D6+1 Killing Attack - Ranged,"Stake Night Machine Gun",vs physical 
defense,OAF(-1),9-12 Charges (-1/4), x5 Autofire (+1/2),Penetrating(+1/2)	 
 
 
  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 03:01:25 -0500 (EST) 
From: ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
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	I can think of only one example of a human with skill levels vs. 
time penalties... 
	Scotty from Star Trek.  The ever popular 'That will take eight hours, 
sir' "Do it in one" scenario comes to mind. 
	...actually, Kit Bashing, as it's called in Marvel, is commonly used by 
Mr. Fantastic, the Leader, and a slew of other heroes/villians who don't 
even have super speed. 
	...and skill in 'Jury Rigging' exist in Mekton and Cyberpunk for 
Techies...  who also don't have super speed. 
	Of course, such specialized skill levels in excess could prove to get 
ridiculous.  'That will take five hours to do, sir' "Can you work any faster?" 
'I could possibly have it done in twelve, sir.'  "Minutes?"  'No, sir. 
 Twelve seconds.' 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 07:52:06 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Subject: Re: Point Crocks????? 
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On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Remnant wrote: 
 
> You said linked.  You must be punished.  :) 
 
Whoops! You said linked too, and now *you* must be... D'ohh!!! 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:43:37 -0600 (CST) 
Subject: Hurting yourself 
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> Subject: Re: Hurting yourself 
 
> It all depends on the 'feel' you want. 
> In the real world, people hurt themselves all the time...although trained 
> martial artists much less so.  In the comic books, the only characters 
> who manage to do so are the ones with the large 'Kick Me' signs on thier 
> backs--the ones put there for comic relief. 
> Thank you, 
> William Anders Peterson 
> WillyPete1@juno.com 
> 
 
I don't agree that it's just comic relief.  What about normals punching 
Superman for instance ? I remember one Superman where Clark Kent was forced 
into a boxing ring.  In order to preserve his secret identity, he had to  
dodge and run around the ring so the other guy never landed a blow on him.  
Of course this reinforced his cowardly image.   
 
Curt  
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 15:10:27  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Point Crocks????? 
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On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:39:18 -0600, Remnant wrote: 
 
>I follow your point, one wife good, two wives, better, but difference 
>between no wife and one wife bigger difference than difference between one 
>wife and two wife. 
 
Off-topic, but isn't the Japanese or Chines pictogram for discord 'two 
women in the same house'? 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
TRG> 	However, I have a real problem with CE affecting "objects".  IE, I 
TRG> can see it being used to straighten up a room or switching around a few 
TRG> cards, but using it to chop down a tree 
 
If you stopped to think about this for a minute, you would realize that 
chopping down a tree is a killing attack. 
 
TRG> or take apart an engine is too powerful. 
 
If not CE then a minor Transformation Attack. 
 
TRG> 	This power is designed to affect the "environment".  The problem 
TRG> is defining the environment.  Could I, for example, write out a 
TRG> computer program at incredible speed with this? 
 
Maybe... as things currently stand, there are no mechanics for writing 
code: the Programming skill is more of a general operations skill than 
coding.  So the answer here is up to the individual GM.  Still, since a 
normal person cannot write huge ammounts of working code in seconds, a 
speedster cannot unless he buys something extra that allows him to do so. 
 
TRG> Is the computer part of the environment?  How about picking the 
TRG> pockets of some nearby bystanders? 
 
TK, clear and simple. 
 
TRG> They're not part of the action, so there's no combat effect.  Is this 
TRG> permissible? 
 
No, because in most of your examples the effect can be achieved with 
another power.  If you had stopped to think about it for a minute I think 
you would have realised this.  This is basic Champions philosphy: do not 
crock a power to do something that can be accomplished with another. 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org> 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 15:20:36  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
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On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:13:00 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
>> TRG> 	However, any skill comes with a set amount of time to do it in. 
>> 
>> Yes; this is the minimum ammount of time required to accomplish the task. 
>> This is normally a significant chunk of one's action phase (check the BBB 
>> for the exact timing). 
> 
>	Yes, yes.  You're on the right track. 
> 
>> TRG> It is permissable to take less time with skill penalties or more time 
>> TRG> with skill bonuses.  There exists the mechanic for doing any type of 
>> TRG> normal skill more quickly than normal. 
>> 
>> No, there exists a mechanic for doing any type of normal skill more 
>> *slowly* than normal, but there is not one for performing it more quickly 
>> outside of the GM's discretion. 
> 
>	Hmmm.  Maybe just a logical conclusion I've been using.  In any 
>case, the situation must exist where a character can perform a skill 
>quicker.  It's in the literature:  Character N needs to diffuse very 
>complex bomb; this would normally take 1 minute, the GM rules; however, 
>the timer is down to 3, meaning only 1 phase for Character N to act; the 
>GM says, "go for it" and assigns a penalty. 
> 
>	Now, the key here is deciding on a fair penalty structure.  I 
>agree it should be pretty expensive for each step down the time chart.  2 
>pts per is OK, 3 sounds real good, 5 seems too expensive.  I.E, a -2, -3, 
>or -5.  Or possibly something like -2 for first step down, -4 for second, 
>-8 for third, etc. 
 
ISTR that this is actually detailed in one of the ACs on Magic Item 
creation, I think. The article talks about a mage needing to finish 
enchanting a ring in a hurry because there's a demon ramaging through 
the city. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
TRG> 	I can see your point.  It doesn't make sense to allow a normal to 
TRG> do the same things with his/her skill levels.  There is, however, a 
TRG> way to justify the fact that the speedster has this ability: He has 
TRG> paid points for powers and characteristics that represent a super 
TRG> speed character. 
 
No, he has taken a limitation on his skill levels. a limitation that gives 
him the ability to do something that a normal person, without said 
limitation, cannot.  That is what I am saying is unfair, and there is no 
way to rationalize around that. 
 
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
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>>>>> "AAM" == ALONE AT MIDNIGHT <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> writes: 
 
AAM> 	...actually, Kit Bashing, as it's called in Marvel, is commonly 
AAM> used by Mr. Fantastic, the Leader, and a slew of other heroes/villians 
AAM> who don't even have super speed. 
 
Or "Jury Rig", or perhaps "hack" (read alt.hackers sometime). 
 
The critical point here is that a jury-rigged "fix" is *NOT* doing it 
right.  Sure, it might work, and you might be able to get it working faster 
that way, but the fix is not going to last, and it might cause all kinds of 
other problems as the hack overstresses the rest of the system. 
 
But even with such a skill, you are not going to see quite the degree of 
time compression associated with speedsters.  That rationally should be a 
power, or better yet, a Multipower or VPP for "stupid speedster tricks". 
 
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Cost of Ego SPD? 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 16 Jan 1998 10:27:33 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "SW" == Stirling Westrup <sti@CAM.ORG> writes: 
 
SW> I recently built a mentalist (something that I seldom do) and I ran 
SW> into a problem that I had never encountered before. The rules in the 
SW> BBB say that a mentalist has an 'Ego Speed' used for calculating when 
SW> he gets to use EGO powers. 
 
There is no such animal in the fourth edition.  Mentalists still act based 
on their regular, DEX-based Speed.  At the GM's discretion, the timing of 
the use of mental powers within a segment of may be based on Ego rather 
than Dexterity.  To wit, use Ego instead of DEX when counting down the DEX 
chart. 
 
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:36:09 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> 	Of course, such specialized skill levels in excess could prove to get 
> ridiculous.  'That will take five hours to do, sir' "Can you work any faster?" 
> 'I could possibly have it done in twelve, sir.'  "Minutes?"  'No, sir. 
>  Twelve seconds.' 
 
 
	Right.  That's why I wouldn't allow use of these levels to an 
extreme degree without some sort of valid SFX to back them up; with points 
spent on powers to suggest the ability. 
 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:36:56 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Point Crocks????? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 07:52 AM 1/16/98 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote: 
>On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Remnant wrote: 
> 
>> You said linked.  You must be punished.  :) 
> 
>Whoops! You said linked too, and now *you* must be... D'ohh!!! 
 
   This is starting to sound like the stoning scene from "The Life of 
Brian." 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:38:26 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:18 AM 1/16/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Maybe... as things currently stand, there are no mechanics for writing 
>code: the Programming skill is more of a general operations skill than 
>coding.  So the answer here is up to the individual GM.  Still, since a 
>normal person cannot write huge ammounts of working code in seconds, a 
>speedster cannot unless he buys something extra that allows him to do so. 
 
   Any suggestions for what that "something extra" should be? 
--- 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:39:36 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:06 PM 1/15/98, qts wrote: 
>>   So would a lightning-fast Lockpicking ability be Transform (locked lock 
>>to unlocked lock)?  If so, why would it be more difficult to pick a lock 
>>with high BODY than one with low BODY? 
> 
>How about using something along the lines of Extra-dimensional 
>Movement, Continuous 
 
   I don't follow your line of thought here at all. 
--- 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:42:55 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:20 PM 1/15/98, qts wrote: 
>Instead of having Everyvehicle equipment, why not do what another 
>poster does with his PCs, and allow them anything that the *vehicle's* 
>point level of wealth would allow? This neatly sidesteps the need for 
>the GM to define everything. 
 
   Actually, defining every little sensor is mainly for those GMs who 
*don't* want to allow Everyvehicle Equipment, or who want an "optional 
extra" for a vehicle of a different type.  (Do aircraft have ground 
speedometers?  Or how about a stunt car with an altimeter?) 
--- 
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   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 16 Jan 1998 12:46:24 -0500 
Lines: 37 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
BG>    Any suggestions for what that "something extra" should be? 
 
That is a very tough call, especially because I know "too much" about the 
subject -- for instance, you are going to hit a brick wall, as a modern 
keyboard cannot keep up with a typist going at more than 150wpm. 
 
But this is four-color supers, and writing code quickly is generally not 
something of great import in the genre, so keyboards can keep up no matter 
how fast the typist.  A power dedicated to just this task would cost much 
more than its utility within the game.  As such, like a weapon that a 
character picks up off the battlefield, if you do it once you can get it 
for free. 
 
That said, I would still suggest using Change Environment with variable SFX 
as the blanket "stupid speedster tricks" power.  If CE can be used to write 
a novel in minutes, it can be used to write several hundred thousand lines 
of code in the same time.  The only difference is the medium. 
 
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 18:37:11  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:39:36 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>At 10:06 PM 1/15/98, qts wrote: 
>>>   So would a lightning-fast Lockpicking ability be Transform (locked lock 
>>>to unlocked lock)?  If so, why would it be more difficult to pick a lock 
>>>with high BODY than one with low BODY? 
>> 
>>How about using something along the lines of Extra-dimensional 
>>Movement, Continuous 
> 
>   I don't follow your line of thought here at all. 
 
Because you're continually moving through time at a different rate. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 18:38:31  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:42:55 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>At 10:20 PM 1/15/98, qts wrote: 
>>Instead of having Everyvehicle equipment, why not do what another 
>>poster does with his PCs, and allow them anything that the *vehicle's* 
>>point level of wealth would allow? This neatly sidesteps the need for 
>>the GM to define everything. 
> 
>   Actually, defining every little sensor is mainly for those GMs who 
>*don't* want to allow Everyvehicle Equipment, or who want an "optional 
>extra" for a vehicle of a different type.  (Do aircraft have ground 
>speedometers?  Or how about a stunt car with an altimeter?) 
 
Fair enough. Personally, I'd rather concentrate on the story. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:00:03 -0600 
From: Kevin Roberts <kr23st00@apex.net> 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Cost of Ego SPD? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Stirling Westrup wrote: 
>  
> I recently built a mentalist (something that I seldom do) and I ran into a 
> problem that I had never encountered before. The rules in the BBB say that a 
> mentalist has an 'Ego Speed' used for calculating when he gets to use EGO 
> powers. (Many GMs I know ignore this rule). The formula given is that 
> ESPD = 1 + (EGO/10), but there is no cost given for buying extra ESPD. Is it 1 
> per 1 as with normal SPD, or is it cheaper (since EGO is cheaper than DEX)? 
>  
Snip snip.. 
 
Ok.  I love mentalist type characters.  Here is where and how you can  
deal with this problem.   
 
There is in "The Ultimate Mentalist" an add on book that deals with  
just mental powers.  In this book you will find how you can buy and 
have an ego speed, and a dex speed.  Yes two sets ot speeds for the  
same character.   
 
Diffent powers and expansion for mental character. 
 
Yes, you do need to show and get approval by your GM on what you  
want to do. But I see no problem in this.  Just have fun with  
him. 
 
sig.. 
 
end of line............ 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:15:19 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> That is a very tough call, especially because I know "too much" about the 
> subject -- for instance, you are going to hit a brick wall, as a modern 
> keyboard cannot keep up with a typist going at more than 150wpm. 
> 
> But this is four-color supers, and writing code quickly is generally not 
> something of great import in the genre, so keyboards can keep up no matter 
> how fast the typist. 
 
	Right. 
 
>  A power dedicated to just this task would cost much 
> more than its utility within the game.  As such, like a weapon that a 
> character picks up off the battlefield, if you do it once you can get it 
> for free. 
 
	Hmmm.  I'd allow that, but the problem is the power for doing 
stuff like this regularly. 
 
> That said, I would still suggest using Change Environment with variable SFX 
> as the blanket "stupid speedster tricks" power.  If CE can be used to write 
> a novel in minutes, it can be used to write several hundred thousand lines 
> of code in the same time.  The only difference is the medium. 
 
	Why can CE be used to write a novel?  I really can't see allowing 
the power to do more that change the _setting_ and _surroundings_.  Not 
have concrete effects on "things". 
 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:16:30 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Point Crocks????? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
> >Whoops! You said linked too, and now *you* must be... D'ohh!!! 
> 
>    This is starting to sound like the stoning scene from "The Life of 
> Brian." 
 
 
	"The next person to say Jehova . . ." [loud thud] 
 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Point Crocks????? 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 14:28:19 -0500 
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 1/16/98 8:52 AM Darien Phoenix Lynx (chip@owlnet.rice.edu) Said: 
 
>> You said linked.  You must be punished.  :) 
> 
>Whoops! You said linked too, and now *you* must be... D'ohh!!! 
> 
All *I* said was that pie was good enough for *Jehovah*! 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:36:37 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Cost of Ego SPD? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 01:00 PM 1/16/98 -0600, Kevin Roberts wrote: 
>Stirling Westrup wrote: 
>>  
>> I recently built a mentalist (something that I seldom do) and I ran into a 
>> problem that I had never encountered before. The rules in the BBB say 
that a 
>> mentalist has an 'Ego Speed' used for calculating when he gets to use EGO 
>> powers. (Many GMs I know ignore this rule). The formula given is that 
>> ESPD = 1 + (EGO/10), but there is no cost given for buying extra ESPD. 
Is it 1 
>> per 1 as with normal SPD, or is it cheaper (since EGO is cheaper than DEX)? 
>>  
>Snip snip.. 
> 
>Ok.  I love mentalist type characters.  Here is where and how you can  
>deal with this problem.   
> 
>There is in "The Ultimate Mentalist" an add on book that deals with  
>just mental powers.  In this book you will find how you can buy and 
>have an ego speed, and a dex speed.  Yes two sets ot speeds for the  
>same character. 
 
   To repeat a question I posted earlier:  where is this? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:40:32 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 12:46 PM 1/16/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
> 
>BG>    Any suggestions for what that "something extra" should be? 
> 
>That is a very tough call, especially because I know "too much" about the 
>subject -- for instance, you are going to hit a brick wall, as a modern 
>keyboard cannot keep up with a typist going at more than 150wpm. 
> 
>But this is four-color supers, and writing code quickly is generally not 
>something of great import in the genre, so keyboards can keep up no matter 
>how fast the typist.  A power dedicated to just this task would cost much 
>more than its utility within the game.  As such, like a weapon that a 
>character picks up off the battlefield, if you do it once you can get it 
>for free. 
> 
>That said, I would still suggest using Change Environment with variable SFX 
>as the blanket "stupid speedster tricks" power.  If CE can be used to write 
>a novel in minutes, it can be used to write several hundred thousand lines 
>of code in the same time.  The only difference is the medium. 
 
   And, of course, that's a big *if.*  I don't think it's been established 
yet that CE *can* be used to write a novel in minutes. 
   Me, I like the idea of having an all-new Power, Super-Speed, to knock 
these tasks up one step on the Time Chart for every 10 points spent on the 
Power.  It honestly does make a lot more sense than my earlier proposal 
based on Skill Levels. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:45:13 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 10:36 AM 1/16/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
>>  Of course, such specialized skill levels in excess could prove to get 
>> ridiculous.  'That will take five hours to do, sir' "Can you work any 
faster?" 
>> 'I could possibly have it done in twelve, sir.'  "Minutes?"  'No, sir. 
>>  Twelve seconds.' 
> 
> Right.  That's why I wouldn't allow use of these levels to an 
>extreme degree without some sort of valid SFX to back them up; with points 
>spent on powers to suggest the ability. 
 
   Actually, I don't think any of us here would or should allow the use of 
any Characteristic, Skill, Perk, Talent, Power, Advantage, Limitation, 
Framework, or Disadvantage that didn't have a valid SFX. 
   Of course, this can be very easy to come up with in some cases ("Why 
does Bodacious Dude have a COM 24, Biff?"  "Uh, luck and really good 
genes?"  "OK, good enough...."), and more of a challenge in others ("How 
does Bodacious Dude's surfboard turn him and itself Desolid?"  "Uh, I'm not 
sure, it just looked cool on the character sheet."  "Spend the points 
elsewhere.") 
--- 
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   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:49:04 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 06:37 PM 1/16/98, qts wrote: 
>On Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:39:36 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>>At 10:06 PM 1/15/98, qts wrote: 
>>>>   So would a lightning-fast Lockpicking ability be Transform (locked lock 
>>>>to unlocked lock)?  If so, why would it be more difficult to pick a lock 
>>>>with high BODY than one with low BODY? 
>>> 
>>>How about using something along the lines of Extra-dimensional 
>>>Movement, Continuous 
>> 
>>   I don't follow your line of thought here at all. 
> 
>Because you're continually moving through time at a different rate. 
 
   Oh, now I understand.  I was relating your suggestion specifically to 
Lockpicking and the BODY of a lock, but you were talking generally. 
   Yeah, this kind of thing could work; in fact, I've done something 
similar in one of my past campaigns, and successfully.  The big problem 
with it is that, in order to interact with the real world while in another 
dimension (even if it's a matching dimension that differs only in the 
passage of time), the character still must buy Indirect and 
Transdimensional (+3/4 total Advantage) on his STR, and any other Powers 
that he wants to use on others. 
--- 
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   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:55:01 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Point Crocks????? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
> > 
> >Whoops! You said linked too, and now *you* must be... D'ohh!!! 
> > 
> All *I* said was that pie was good enough for *Jehovah*! 
 
 
	As a large number of rocks convene on the speaker. 
 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:01:08 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> TRG> 	However, I have a real problem with CE affecting "objects".  IE, I 
> TRG> can see it being used to straighten up a room or switching around a few 
> TRG> cards, but using it to chop down a tree 
> 
> If you stopped to think about this for a minute, you would realize that 
> chopping down a tree is a killing attack. 
 
	If in combat.  However, chopping down a large number of small 
trees from the nearby forest and building a quick shelter to protect from 
the cold is better simulated by some sort of building skill.  It's just 
that the speedster can do it in, oh, 4 or 5 seconds.  Using KAs just 
wouldn't fit the effect. 
 
 
> TRG> or take apart an engine is too powerful. 
> 
> If not CE then a minor Transformation Attack. 
 
	Possible, but it's still doing the work of what a skill already 
allows.  You just have to use the skill at a quicker rate with appropriate 
penalties. 
 
 
> Maybe... as things currently stand, there are no mechanics for writing 
> code: the Programming skill is more of a general operations skill than 
> coding.  So the answer here is up to the individual GM.  Still, since a 
 
	Well, Programming is actually used for writing code and operating 
computers.  It does need to be split into two seperate skills, IMO. 
 
> normal person cannot write huge ammounts of working code in seconds, a 
> speedster cannot unless he buys something extra that allows him to do so. 
 
	He has.  He's spent lots of points on powers that make up the SFX 
of superspeed.  Therefore, he can *attempt* to do a skill in less time 
than a normal possible could.  He still, however, has to deal with 
considerable skill penalties. 
 
 
> TRG> Is the computer part of the environment?  How about picking the 
> TRG> pockets of some nearby bystanders? 
> 
> TK, clear and simple. 
 
	Huh?  How about the speedster trick of picking all the pockets in 
the room in the blink of an eye, without being detected.  This is 
obviously slight of hand on a very fast scale. 
 
> No, because in most of your examples the effect can be achieved with 
> another power.  If you had stopped to think about it for a minute I think 
> you would have realised this.  This is basic Champions philosphy: do not 
> crock a power to do something that can be accomplished with another. 
 
 
	I'd turn around and say the same to you.  Most of what you propose 
needlessly utilizes a power to do what a skill can and should do.  Haven't 
you jumped on Steve Long for the very same thing? 
 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 16 Jan 1998 17:02:24 -0500 
Lines: 28 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
TRG> 	Why can CE be used to write a novel?  I really can't see allowing 
TRG> the power to do more that change the _setting_ and _surroundings_.  Not 
TRG> have concrete effects on "things". 
 
Then how about making a suggestion that makes sense, that does not crock 
game mechanics in favor of certain "classes" of characters, instead of 
shooting down everything I try to present?  If you have nothing positive to 
contribute, don't bother posting. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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X-Attribution: Rat 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
>> If you stopped to think about this for a minute, you would realize that 
>> chopping down a tree is a killing attack. 
 
TRG> 	If in combat.  However, chopping down a large number of small 
TRG> trees from the nearby forest and building a quick shelter to protect 
TRG> from the cold is better simulated by some sort of building skill. 
 
This is two different things: 1) chopping down the trees and 2) building 
the shelter.  The former is a killing attack, regardless of combat time; 
the latter is a Survival skill roll. 
 
TRG> It's just that the speedster can do it in, oh, 4 or 5 seconds.  Using 
TRG> KAs just wouldn't fit the effect. 
 
Oh, boy, then you come up with something rational. 
 
TRG> or take apart an engine is too powerful. 
>>  
>> If not CE then a minor Transformation Attack. 
 
TRG> 	Possible, but it's still doing the work of what a skill already 
TRG> allows.  You just have to use the skill at a quicker rate with 
TRG> appropriate penalties. 
 
That is exactly what the Transformation does: it changes the "state" of the 
thing at a faster rate than just the use of the skill alone. 
 
[...] 
 
TRG> 	Huh?  How about the speedster trick of picking all the pockets in 
TRG> the room in the blink of an eye, without being detected.  This is 
TRG> obviously slight of hand on a very fast scale. 
 
No, it is "obviously" TK with AoE, fine manipulation, and invisible power 
effects. 
 
[...] 
 
TRG> 	I'd turn around and say the same to you.  Most of what you propose 
TRG> needlessly utilizes a power to do what a skill can and should do. 
 
No ammount of "Mechanics" skill levels will allow me or you or anyone else 
to assemble a car's engine in under 10 seconds.  This is completely outside 
the realm of skill levels.  They do not allow you to perform tasks faster 
(though they do reduce the number of times you may need to try), and adding 
a limitation will not change that. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core, 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should 
                                    \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 16 Jan 1998 17:16:30 -0500 
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
BG>    Me, I like the idea of having an all-new Power, Super-Speed, to knock 
BG> these tasks up one step on the Time Chart for every 10 points spent on 
BG> the Power.  It honestly does make a lot more sense than my earlier 
BG> proposal based on Skill Levels. 
 
I can live with that.  But for the record, I am trying to model "super 
speed" with the extant mechanics without crocking them (or at leat not too 
badly).  With that in mind, you have to ask yourself, "is this task 
critical to the plot?"  If it is not, then the object of the task qualifies 
as a "flat", part of the scenery.  As such, Change Environment can affect 
it.  If it is, then the object qualifies as a "prop".  That requires 
something a bit more powerful, such as a Transformation Attack. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:50:16 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Reply-To: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On 16 Jan 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> >>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
>  
> TRG> 	Why can CE be used to write a novel?  I really can't see allowing 
> TRG> the power to do more that change the _setting_ and _surroundings_.  Not 
> TRG> have concrete effects on "things". 
>  
> Then how about making a suggestion that makes sense, that does not crock 
> game mechanics in favor of certain "classes" of characters, instead of 
> shooting down everything I try to present?  If you have nothing positive to 
> contribute, don't bother posting. 
etc, etc... 
 
Guys, guys! Stop the madness! 
 
Tim, Rat has a point. Trying to model the potent effect of superspeed 
skills as a "real" effect (costing points) rather than a "special" effect 
makes sense. Rat is just trying to do it in the most orthodox way 
possible. That doesn't mean it's the cleanest way, or the best way for 
someone's campaign, but at least it is the most orthodox way. Rat is not 
trying to say that the concept is invalid. Rat just wants any solution to 
be "by the book," not fudged significantly. Rat believes that altering the 
par times for skills is a significant fudge, and he especially doesn't 
like not charging for it, or buying it as skill levels, etc. 
 
Rat, Tim has a point. CE is a nebulous power that doesn't make clear what 
kinds of "changes" to the environment are allowed. This is why so many of 
us want to see a graduated CE like Transform. Tim is pointing out that a 
skill still needs to be applied to perform these effects and that a CE or 
a Transform shouldn't replace them. Tim also believes more in GM 
sensibility than faithful adherance to the rules, and is willing to allow 
"unorthodox" structures like skill levels vs. time penalties, or 
superspeed as SFX. 
 
Tim attacks Rat on the grounds that Rat's suggestions are just as "screwy" 
as his own. Rat counters by saying that he's at least screwy the HERO way. 
Muffled voices of passersby consider a new power, "Superspeed." 
 
(sniff) and you're even both ignoring my suggestions. 
 
HERO-VALID-    SUGGESTION 
O-METER 
 
  10           Rat: build separate powers to model each superspeed effect. 
   8           Darien: Orthodox CE: "Any noncombat actions I could do in 
               X time." (with the +1 advantage). GM sets X. 
   7           Tim: Skill levels, only to offset GM-called time penalties. 
               Needs a time penalty mechanic. 
   4           Darien: Unorthdox CE: Each +5 moves a step on time chart 
               rather than doubling area. With +1 advantage, 40 points to 
               do 1 hour's worth of nonombat work in 1 phase. Range 
               limited by 1 phase running distance. 
   2           Others: An all new power, Superspeed. 10 points per. 
   2           Darien: Any of above, but new skill-timing system. Rolls 
               determine how long job will take. Players pour in as much 
               effort as they want, but can stop at any time. 
 -10           Let's make up and play Fuzion. 
 
Every GM has a rating on the Hero-Valid-o-Meter--the lower the number, the 
more fudge they're willing to accept before gouging someone's eyes out. 
Usually, with smart GMs who understand the spirit of the rules, the fudged 
mechanics are cleaner and provide more satisfying modeled results. 
Sometimes it helps to read good ol' BBB 208-209 again. But they're not as 
much HERO as they are HouseRules(tm). I'm a big believer in discretionary 
mechanics--but big responsibility comes with that great power. For one 
thing, you really have to be sure you now the interdependencies and 
principles behind the HERO system inside and out. If you don't, you'll be 
making discontiguous modifications--and might break more than you fix. 
That's why we should appreciate Rat and his tireless effort to model 
everything on virgin rules. In my experience modifying the rules is 
sometimes the best way to have the most fun. But it must be done 
judiciously and in limited ways, with careful thought given to all 
alternatives. Rat can think of all the kosher alternatives for you, and 
even if they don't satisfy you, they can be a starting point for your 
careful tweak. 
 
Now, one last time. If Tim wants to tweak the system, that's okay. Tim is 
probably an enlightened guy and will do something that makes good 
sense--and the designers wanted it that way. If Rat says that you "can't 
do it," he's not ordering you around, he's just pointing out that you're 
tweaking the system and begins his crusade to see what the alternatives 
are. This is valuable input, take notes. It's a common motif on this list 
that someone has a difficult item to model, and gets a slew of responses, 
some orthodox, some not-as-orthodox. Then the Holy War between HERO 
Purists and HERO Envelope-Pushers begins anew. Why can't you guys just get 
along. It's not like anyone said "linked" or anything... 
 
 
 
 
D'ohh!! 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Hurting yourself 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,3-7,10-15,17-45 
From: willypete1@juno.com (WILLIAM A PETERSON) 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 17:50:32 EST 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I hereby amend my statement: 
People only hurt themselves when they are intended as comic relief, or 
when they are trying to punch something that is so tough (like Superman 
or Wolverine) that they should know better. 
However-- 
	A.) This is something REALLY tough, not just a brick wall, and 
	B.) The person doing so is NOT a trained martial artist. 
 
	Real-life martial artists punch through things like brick walls 
all the time--once they've learned how.  Untrained martial artists who 
try to imitate the trained ones, however, become comic relief. 
 
Thank you, 
William Anders Peterson 
WillyPete1@juno.com 
 
On Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:43:37 -0600 (CST) Curt Hicks 
<exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> writes: 
> 
>> Subject: Re: Hurting yourself 
> 
>> It all depends on the 'feel' you want. 
>> In the real world, people hurt themselves all the time...although  
>trained 
>> martial artists much less so.  In the comic books, the only  
>characters 
>> who manage to do so are the ones with the large 'Kick Me' signs on  
>thier 
>> backs--the ones put there for comic relief. 
>> Thank you, 
>> William Anders Peterson 
>> WillyPete1@juno.com 
>> 
> 
>I don't agree that it's just comic relief.  What about normals  
>punching 
>Superman for instance ? I remember one Superman where Clark Kent was  
>forced 
>into a boxing ring.  In order to preserve his secret identity, he had  
>to  
>dodge and run around the ring so the other guy never landed a blow on  
>him.  
>Of course this reinforced his cowardly image.   
> 
>Curt  
> 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:06:52 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: TUSV: Everyvehicle Equipment 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-- Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
 
>  
>    An anchor... on a speedboat? 
>    Hm.  I wonder how an anchor would be written up in Hero terms? 
 
	It would probarly be some sort of clinging to the bottom  
below the boat.  Exceed the amount of clinging and the boat starts to  
drift. 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:31:01 -0800 
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger) 
Subject: Re[2]: Hurting yourself 
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Will Peterson wrote: 
<quote> 
I hereby amend my statement: 
People only hurt themselves when they are intended as comic relief, or when  
they are trying to punch something that is so tough (like Superman or  
Wolverine) that they should know better. 
However-- 
A.) This is something REALLY tough, not just a brick wall, and B.) The  
person doing so is NOT a trained martial artist. 
</quote> 
 
Maybe the people who are so tough that it hurts to hit them should buy a  
small damage shield? This way, they wouldn't just arbitrarily get a bonus  
for SFX. 
 
Richard 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:32:54 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 1 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
>  
> Because neither you nor I can assemble a car engine, an 8-hour job, in 8 
> seconds, regardless of how many skill levels with Mechanics we buy, the 
> same skill levels that a speedster will buy.  Why should the speedster, for 
> a *LIMITATION*, get more out of his skill levels than you or I, who paid 
> more for them? 
 
	Because you ARE getting more for them.  You have +4 skill levels as a  
mechanic on your 11- base giving you 15- to repair the batmobile in 8 hours.   
This gives you a 95% chance of getting the job done. 
 
	Ratchetman, the fastest spanner in the west, also has +4 skill levels as  
a mechanic and a base 11- mechanic skill but can only use the skill levels to  
decrease the time on the job.  He has only a 50% chance of repairing the  
batmobile but does it in 30 seconds, success or failure.  He still did 8 hours  
work, it only took him 30 seconds.  This is, I believe, the premise behind many  
speedsters,  they do things faster than anybody else. 
 
	Other examples.  Barry Allen, the Flash,  in the middle of a  
conversation, raced off to somebodies office across state, searched all their  
paper files and returned in time to catch the object he tossed in the air.   
Again, the Flash.  Doing a Rubix Cube in less than a second. 
 
	All examples of speedsters doing things quicker than others.  This is  
their special effect, is it not?  Why are you so against it.  Are you against  
Mentalists reading peoples minds,  bricks lifting aircraft carriers? 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:43:35 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 2 
 
Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
>  
>         I could see allowing the specialized skill levels at no 
> disadvantage level, that would seem to work.  How's that sound? 
>  
 
	Why should somebody take a penality to his effectiveness  
and not get any points back for it.  Certainly if it is not a  
limitation, then sure.  But if it limits his choices as to how the  
skill levels can be applied, he is entitled to a refund.  How big?  
 Beats me. 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 17:43:49 -0600 
From: Kevin Roberts <kr23st00@apex.net> 
Subject: Re: Cost of Ego SPD? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
> At 01:00 PM 1/16/98 -0600, Kevin Roberts wrote: 
> >Stirling Westrup wrote: 
 
> >There is in "The Ultimate Mentalist" an add on book that deals with 
> >just mental powers.  In this book you will find how you can buy and 
> >have an ego speed, and a dex speed.  Yes two sets ot speeds for the 
> >same character. 
>  
>    To repeat a question I posted earlier:  where is this? 
 
 
OK it is in the Source book "The Ultimate Menalist"  # 512 for fourth 
edition 
The explination on this and where it is is in Chaper 1. Page 11. Col 1. 
3rd  
Paragraph through to Col. 2. to the end of the 2nd Paragraph. 
 
If you want to know more I suggest that you buy the book.  It is a good 
buy 
and does have a lot of good thought out powers. 
 
 
sig. 
 
end of line........ 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:46:12 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Cost of Ego SPD? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 05:43 PM 1/16/98 -0600, Kevin Roberts wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>  
>> At 01:00 PM 1/16/98 -0600, Kevin Roberts wrote: 
>> >Stirling Westrup wrote: 
> 
>> >There is in "The Ultimate Mentalist" an add on book that deals with 
>> >just mental powers.  In this book you will find how you can buy and 
>> >have an ego speed, and a dex speed.  Yes two sets ot speeds for the 
>> >same character. 
>>  
>>    To repeat a question I posted earlier:  where is this? 
> 
> 
>OK it is in the Source book "The Ultimate Menalist"  # 512 for fourth 
>edition 
>The explination on this and where it is is in Chaper 1. Page 11. Col 1. 
>3rd  
>Paragraph through to Col. 2. to the end of the 2nd Paragraph. 
> 
>If you want to know more I suggest that you buy the book.  It is a good 
>buy 
>and does have a lot of good thought out powers. 
 
   I've owned the book since shortly after its release, and just read the 
passage in question.  It makes no mention at all of a SPD Characteristic 
based on EGO rather than DEX. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
Subject: Re: Point Crocks????? 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 19:19:50 -0600 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
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X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
-----Original Message----- 
From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
>Off-topic, but isn't the Japanese or Chines pictogram for discord 'two 
>women in the same house'? 
 
 
 
I had heard it was in Chinese.  I believe it refers to two women that are 
not both your wife.  A relative or friend, but not wife.  It seems to work 
out well for people whose religion or societal beliefs favor it.  The above 
opinions are mine and mine alone, and is not meant to represent the beliefs 
of my wife....Oh, hi honey.  What is that in your hand?        Dear why do 
you need a knife that large?       HHHHEEEELLLLPPPPP! 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: Wgauld <Wgauld@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:26:19 EST 
Subject: campaign material 
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Any info on Champion games on or about the city of Boston. 
 
thanks 
Willie 
Wgauld@aol.com 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 19:59:23 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Reply-To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
 
>    Actually, I don't think any of us here would or should allow the use of 
> any Characteristic, Skill, Perk, Talent, Power, Advantage, Limitation, 
> Framework, or Disadvantage that didn't have a valid SFX. 
 
	Right.  And at the same time certain applications of skill and/or 
characteristic I wouldn't allow to be done unless a character has some 
power, etc to justify it.  That's why SpeedBoy can do skills superfast 
(albeit at a penalty) while normals cannot. 
 
> does Bodacious Dude's surfboard turn him and itself Desolid?"  "Uh, I'm not 
> sure, it just looked cool on the character sheet."  "Spend the points 
> elsewhere.") 
 
 
	OK, his friend, TechGirl, made a really cool phase modulator for 
it. 
 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org> 
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> 
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting 
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 02:01:35 +0000 
Subject: Re: Magic Shapeshifting Potions 
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To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
So Sayeth Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net&> 
 
> << So how do you model the classical fantasy 'magic potion', such that a 
> player character can find one in a chest and be able to use it. Drinking 
> it lets the hero turn into any animal he wants, for up to 1 hour. 
>  
> And after you've modeled the potion, how do you model the alchemist 
> who makes a living creating and selling such potions? 
>  
> This problem seems to be a perennial one in Fantasy Hero games.>> 
 
> Most alchemists won't do this, for obvious reasons. For these 
> alchemists, try Transfer. The GM declares that various rare objects 
> have points in them that an alchemist can use. The alchemist then uses 
> Transfer to move the points from the materials to the potion, and then 
> the points are spent on the power, with appropriate limitations. 
>  
> The Transfer may be only workable on "proper" items. Thus, Transfer to 
> get points for healing may come from  the horn of a unicorn, but not 
> from the teeth of a dragon. 
>  
 
I like this, in general, but it needs a proper set of rules. For instance, how  
do you model a Fletcher? He makes charges for bows. Are they independant? How  
about a swordsmith. What's a sword cost in real points? 6 or 8? Why does it  
take more/less time to make a 6-point sword than to make a 6-point potion? 
 
Anyway, I think what is needed is a set of rules for determining how a  
professional (or crafting) skill roll can be used to rework independant  
materials into independant items that are them freely available for use. It  
would take into account the different speeds of creation of different crafting  
skills, and would set limits on how many points can be put into an object how  
fast based on skill levels.  
 
Its tricky though, so I don't expect to be happy with the rules I'm working  
on for a while yet. For example, can a swordsmith make a 6d6K sword? Why  
not? Would your reason also prevent 50 stonemasons from building a mighty  
castle? 
--  
 Stirling Westrup  |  Use of the Internet by this poster 
 sti@cam.org       |  is not to be construed as a tacit 
                   |  endorsement of Western Technological 
                   |  Civilization or its appurtenances. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:01:50 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
>    And, of course, that's a big *if.*  I don't think it's been established 
> yet that CE *can* be used to write a novel in minutes. 
 
	My exact problem. 
 
>    Me, I like the idea of having an all-new Power, Super-Speed, to knock 
> these tasks up one step on the Time Chart for every 10 points spent on the 
> Power.  It honestly does make a lot more sense than my earlier proposal 
> based on Skill Levels. 
 
 
	Hmmmm.  Would you allow the purchase of this power in frameworks? 
If so, it may be too cheap, if not it's definately too expensive.  5-8 pts 
might be OK, but I like a graduated scale better:  ie +3 for the first 
level, +5 for the second, +10 for the third, +20 for the fourth. 
 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:04:48 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
 
> TRG> 	Why can CE be used to write a novel?  I really can't see allowing 
> TRG> the power to do more that change the _setting_ and _surroundings_.  Not 
> TRG> have concrete effects on "things". 
> 
> Then how about making a suggestion that makes sense, that does not crock 
> game mechanics in favor of certain "classes" of characters, instead of 
> shooting down everything I try to present?  If you have nothing positive to 
> contribute, don't bother posting. 
 
 
	Odd words for one who routinely shoots down nice ideas without any 
alternative suggestions. 
 
	But I'm not just suggesting a power for classes of characters. 
I'm suggesting that only characters who have purchased a coherent set of 
SFX that would allow for certain tasks to be able to attempt certain 
things with their skills -- things like doing something in 1 phase that 
would normally take an hour.  Note that this wouldn't just be speedsters 
-- Time Power characters may be able to do this as well as some other SFX. 
Give me time to think of them. 
 
 
 
			-Tim Gilberg 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org> 
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> 
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting 
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 03:37:54 +0000 
Subject: Re: Cost of Ego SPD? 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
So Sayeth Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net&> 
 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> >>>>> "SW" == Stirling Westrup <sti@CAM.ORG> writes: 
>  
> SW> I recently built a mentalist (something that I seldom do) and I ran 
> SW> into a problem that I had never encountered before. The rules in the 
> SW> BBB say that a mentalist has an 'Ego Speed' used for calculating when 
> SW> he gets to use EGO powers. 
>  
> There is no such animal in the fourth edition.  Mentalists still act based 
> on their regular, DEX-based Speed.  At the GM's discretion, the timing of 
> the use of mental powers within a segment of may be based on Ego rather 
> than Dexterity.  To wit, use Ego instead of DEX when counting down the DEX 
> chart. 
 
You're right. I read the phrase "within a phase" as "within a turn" and just  
assumed it was the old system. Good. I never did like have two different speed  
bases. 
 
--  
 Stirling Westrup  |  Use of the Internet by this poster 
 sti@cam.org       |  is not to be construed as a tacit 
                   |  endorsement of Western Technological 
                   |  Civilization or its appurtenances. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 23:00:58 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Hurting yourself 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
>	Real-life martial artists punch through things like brick walls 
>all the time--once they've learned how.  Untrained martial artists who 
>try to imitate the trained ones, however, become comic relief. 
 
Bwahahahahaha!!!!! 
 
'Real Life' martial artists do NOT punch through brick walls. They punch 
through single or stacked (and most importantly _separated_) bricks. There 
is a BIG difference. For example, if I take a brick, lay it on something 
that gives me 'space' below a good portion of the brick, and hit it with a 
sledgehammer, it'll break. But if I select a brick at random sitting in a 
brick wall, all the sledgehammer can do is grind the outer surface to dust 
with repeated blows. 
 
Martial artist break stuff is an impressive stunt, sure, but it doesn't take 
a degree in physics to realize that wood has grain you can break along, and 
that ceramics like brick will shatter before they will bend. You don't see 
martial artists breaking steel plates, and with good reason, they'll just 
deform slightly and rebound the force back into the hand/foot in question 
(broken bones time). Some very dedicated/wierd/stupid martial artists 
actually practice punching an iron or steel plate, but they _don't_ try 
breaking it. A brick wall is similar. There's no room for the brick to 
shatter and absorb the force like in a stack of separated bricks. Any wall a 
martial artist _could_ punch through would be pretty damn flimsy (really bad 
mortar, no support). 
 
This is not to belittle the abilities of martial artists. I have a great 
deal of respect for someone who can summon the willpower and confidence to 
actually punch something really hard that _might_ not break. But I am 
familiar with the mechanics of solids and the basics of physics - and that 
breaking a brick wall with your bare hands and feet would be a bloody 
miracle without a weak spot or bad mortar. A properly built brick wall is 
TOUGH. It's not steel-reinforced concrete, but it's the next best thing. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"By all that's unholy, the Enigma Force has given Captain Universe the power 
to back up his sickening platitudes!" 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:58:17 -0800 
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-----Original Message----- 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org> 
Date: Friday, January 16, 1998 2:09 AM 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
 
 
>Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
> 
>> 
>> Because neither you nor I can assemble a car engine, an 8-hour job, 
in 8 
>> seconds, regardless of how many skill levels with Mechanics we buy, 
the 
>> same skill levels that a speedster will buy.  Why should the 
speedster, for 
>> a *LIMITATION*, get more out of his skill levels than you or I, who 
paid 
>> more for them? 
> 
> Because you ARE getting more for them.  You have +4 skill levels as 
a 
>mechanic on your 11- base giving you 15- to repair the batmobile in 8 
hours. 
>This gives you a 95% chance of getting the job done. 
> 
> Ratchetman, the fastest spanner in the west, also has +4 skill 
levels as 
>a mechanic and a base 11- mechanic skill but can only use the skill 
levels to 
>decrease the time on the job.  He has only a 50% chance of repairing 
the 
>batmobile but does it in 30 seconds, success or failure.  He still 
did 8 hours 
>work, it only took him 30 seconds.  This is, I believe, the premise 
behind many 
>speedsters,  they do things faster than anybody else. 
 
 
True. But the levels you described above aren't "Limited" at all. They 
are intended to be, but you phrased the sentence wrong. You said, "can 
only use the skill levels to decrease the time on the job", but you 
meant, "only to negate penalties for insufficient time". 
 
This character can  take the actual 8 hours to do the job, but get a 
bonus equal to taking a season, because he is "decreasing the time on 
the job". This allows the character to have the option of taking the 
proper amount of time, but getting a +4 bonus, or taking only a minute 
with his normal skill roll. Those "limited" levels allow you to do the 
job in less time (which other people cannot do), or do the job in the 
same time with the same effect as normal levels. 
 
Thus, your levels have an _Advantage_, not a disadvantage. 
 
A normal man, no matter how many skill levels he has, cannot possibly 
assemble a car from parts in 12 seconds. A speedster can. Therefore, 
those "speedster" skill levels have an Advantage associated with them. 
Now, if you declare that those levels also have a Limitation 
associated with them, "Only to negate time penalties", then that would 
limit these levels, but only after they received an Advantage that is 
worth a significant amount, possibly more than the limitation. 
 
I might also point out that the rules have no present "time 
penalties". You can get a job done with greater chance of success by 
taking extra time, but you cannot get a job done in less time. There 
is no official mechanic for that. 
 
However you do this, it would have to be a house rule. There is no 
mechanic in the rule for getting a job done in less than the base time 
set by the GM, and any "Skill Levels" that did so would have to have a 
home-made Advantage to allow it. The penalty for doing it in less time 
than normal could would only be able to apply to people who had those 
additional skill levels. Everyone else would have to be limited to the 
base time. Otherwise, a skilled mechanic could, on a good roll, remove 
your car's engine in under a minute. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 23:33:39 -0600 
From: Kevin Roberts <kr23st00@apex.net> 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Cost of Ego SPD? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
> At 05:43 PM 1/16/98 -0600, Kevin Roberts wrote: 
> >Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> >> 
> >> At 01:00 PM 1/16/98 -0600, Kevin Roberts wrote: 
> >> >Stirling Westrup wrote: 
> > 
> >> >There is in "The Ultimate Mentalist" an add on book that deals with 
> >> >just mental powers.  In this book you will find how you can buy and 
> >> >have an ego speed, and a dex speed.  Yes two sets ot speeds for the 
> >> >same character. 
> >> 
> >>    To repeat a question I posted earlier:  where is this? 
> > 
> > 
> >OK it is in the Source book "The Ultimate Menalist"  # 512 for fourth 
> >edition 
> >The explination on this and where it is is in Chaper 1. Page 11. Col 1. 
> >3rd 
> >Paragraph through to Col. 2. to the end of the 2nd Paragraph. 
> > 
> >If you want to know more I suggest that you buy the book.  It is a good 
> >buy 
> >and does have a lot of good thought out powers. 
>  
>    I've owned the book since shortly after its release, and just read the 
> passage in question.  It makes no mention at all of a SPD Characteristic 
> based on EGO rather than DEX. 
> -- 
 
 
Yes and no.  It tell that the character can have two sets of speed. 
It states that a character can have but should not buy speed character 
points with a limitation useable only with mental powers. But it tells  
on how you can have two sets of speed. It is hard to explain in this 
post  
but you have to read the section to understand the rules involved. 
 
 
read the section. I am not going to post it. 
 
so buy the book.  The section I will admit can be read several ways  
but it does state that two speeds are and can be possible. 
 
 
 
end of line....... 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 98 10:00:04  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Magic Shapeshifting Potions 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Sat, 17 Jan 1998 02:01:35 +0000, Stirling Westrup wrote: 
 
>So Sayeth Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net&> 
> 
>> << So how do you model the classical fantasy 'magic potion', such that a 
>> player character can find one in a chest and be able to use it. Drinking 
>> it lets the hero turn into any animal he wants, for up to 1 hour. 
>>  
>> And after you've modeled the potion, how do you model the alchemist 
>> who makes a living creating and selling such potions? 
>>  
>> This problem seems to be a perennial one in Fantasy Hero games.>> 
> 
>> Most alchemists won't do this, for obvious reasons. For these 
>> alchemists, try Transfer. The GM declares that various rare objects 
>> have points in them that an alchemist can use. The alchemist then uses 
>> Transfer to move the points from the materials to the potion, and then 
>> the points are spent on the power, with appropriate limitations. 
>>  
>> The Transfer may be only workable on "proper" items. Thus, Transfer to 
>> get points for healing may come from  the horn of a unicorn, but not 
>> from the teeth of a dragon. 
>>  
> 
>I like this, in general, but it needs a proper set of rules. For instance, how  
>do you model a Fletcher? He makes charges for bows. Are they independant? How  
>about a swordsmith. What's a sword cost in real points? 6 or 8? Why does it  
>take more/less time to make a 6-point sword than to make a 6-point potion? 
 
These aren't magic items 
 
>Anyway, I think what is needed is a set of rules for determining how a  
>professional (or crafting) skill roll can be used to rework independant  
>materials into independant items that are them freely available for use. It  
>would take into account the different speeds of creation of different crafting  
>skills, and would set limits on how many points can be put into an object how  
>fast based on skill levels.  
 
Just use the Time Chart and set a base time. A master swordsmith can 
make a sword much faster than an apprentice. (ie the apprentice has to 
get Extra Time bonuses to be assured of success) 
 
 
> 
>Its tricky though, so I don't expect to be happy with the rules I'm working  
>on for a while yet. For example, can a swordsmith make a 6d6K sword? 
 
Sure, for a giant. For a human, he'd need to enchant it or use 
enchanted ore, or be favoured by the gods. 
 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 98 10:13:36  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
On Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:49:04 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>At 06:37 PM 1/16/98, qts wrote: 
>>On Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:39:36 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>> 
>>>At 10:06 PM 1/15/98, qts wrote: 
>>>>>   So would a lightning-fast Lockpicking ability be Transform (locked lock 
>>>>>to unlocked lock)?  If so, why would it be more difficult to pick a lock 
>>>>>with high BODY than one with low BODY? 
>>>> 
>>>>How about using something along the lines of Extra-dimensional 
>>>>Movement, Continuous 
>>> 
>>>   I don't follow your line of thought here at all. 
>> 
>>Because you're continually moving through time at a different rate. 
> 
>   Oh, now I understand.  I was relating your suggestion specifically to 
>Lockpicking and the BODY of a lock, but you were talking generally. 
>   Yeah, this kind of thing could work; in fact, I've done something 
>similar in one of my past campaigns, and successfully.  The big problem 
>with it is that, in order to interact with the real world while in another 
>dimension (even if it's a matching dimension that differs only in the 
>passage of time), the character still must buy Indirect and 
>Transdimensional (+3/4 total Advantage) on his STR, and any other Powers 
>that he wants to use on others. 
 
My idea was that's where the Continuous comes in - he's *continually* 
XDMing in time, not in any other axis, so because he's not actually 
leaving the Real World, you don't need Indirect etc. This is one area 
where the SFX give you a real cost break. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 06:17:51 -0800 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Cost of Ego SPD? 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
At 11:33 PM 1/16/98 -0600, Kevin Roberts wrote: 
>> >If you want to know more I suggest that you buy the book.  It is a good 
>> >buy 
>> >and does have a lot of good thought out powers. 
>>  
>>    I've owned the book since shortly after its release, and just read the 
>> passage in question.  It makes no mention at all of a SPD Characteristic 
>> based on EGO rather than DEX. 
> 
>Yes and no.  It tell that the character can have two sets of speed. 
>It states that a character can have but should not buy speed character 
>points with a limitation useable only with mental powers. But it tells  
>on how you can have two sets of speed. It is hard to explain in this 
>post  
>but you have to read the section to understand the rules involved. 
> 
>read the section. I am not going to post it. 
> 
>so buy the book.  The section I will admit can be read several ways  
>but it does state that two speeds are and can be possible. 
 
   Apparently, you didn't believe me when I said I already have the book. 
Because of that, and your (understandable) refusal to post the section in 
question, I will post it: 
 
--- 
SPD and Mental Powers 
 
   You may want to design a character that can use mental powers more 
frequently than they can act physically.  After all, in the Hero System if 
you increase a character's SPD then the character can operform any sort of 
action more often, and then can also run much faster.  This may seem odd 
for a mentalist character, who may not be able to run faster than the 
average person.  Characters who want to have Phases on which they can only 
use their Mental Powers should not buy extra points of SPD with some sort 
of Limitation.  This tends to create as many problems as it solves, and is 
not the best solution for game balance.  Instead, characters can simply 
sell off some inches of Running.  Here's how it works: 
   In the Hero System the Speed Characteristic is a reflection of your 
mental ability to recognize and evaluate the proper action in a combat 
situation. rather than a purely physical rating of your ability to move or 
react quickly (which is mostly represented by Dexterity).  So it's not 
unreasonable at all to say that the ability to use mental powers four times 
in a turn (as a SPD 4 character would) also means that the character could 
take physical actions (like movement or attacks) four times in a turn 
instead.  Now, in the case of a character that's mostly spent points on 
mental abilities, they won't have much of a chance to hit someone or hurt 
them with a punch, but they could try that if necessary. 
   The only thing that may seem odd is that a SPD 4 character can run twice 
as fast as a SPD 2 character (both move at 6" per phase; the SPD 4 
character moves 24" in a turn, the SPD 2 character moves 12" in a turn).  A 
simple way to rectify this is for the SPD 4 character to sell off 3" of 
Running, which gives them back 6 points.  Then they only move 3" per phase, 
or a total of 12" per turn, the same total movement as a SPD 2 character. 
Thus you can have a mentalist who acts like a SPD 4 character, but only 
runs as fast as a SPD 2 character.  This technique can, of course, be used 
for other SPD ratings. 
--- 
 
   Now, please point out to me the part of the above text which discusses 
SPD which is based on EGO instead of DEX. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 14:26:47 +0000 
From: Stephen McGinness <S.McGinness@csm.ex.ac.uk> 
Reply-To: csm.ex.ac.uk@exeter.ac.uk 
Organization: Camborne School of Mines 
Subject: Re: Cost of Ego SPD? 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
I had a friend who wanted hi menyalist to act more 
often in a round if he was using his ego powers 
than if he was just doing regular stuff. In teh 
end what we came up with was buying his speed as 
follows 
 
regular speed 4 
ego speed     7 
 
This meant he had three extra phases a round, only 
for ego power actions, so we took it to work like 
he had fixed phases on  
 
3,6,9 and 12 just like normal, then he had three 
extra phases, one between 3 and 6, one between, 6 
and 9, and one between 9 and 12. The speed was 
bought as normal as we reckoned the limitation of 
having the actions limited to ego powers were 
offset by the utility of the floating phases. 
Obviously he could not use a floating phase on the 
same segment as one of his regular phases and 
therefore get two attack actions in one segment. 
 
 
 
Stephen 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org> 
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> 
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting 
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:03:10 +0000 
Subject: Re: Magic Shapeshifting Potions 
Priority: normal 
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org 
X-Hero: champ-l 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
 
So Sayeth qts <qts@nildram.co.uk&> 
 
> On Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:19:52 -0500, Joe Claffey Jr. wrote: 
>  
> >"Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> asks, 
> >> 
> >>So how do you model the classical fantasy 'magic potion', such that a player 
> >>character can find one in a chest and be able to use it. Drinking it lets the 
> >>hero turn into any animal he wants, for up to 1 hour. 
>  
> Can you cite any sources? Usually the potion lets you assume the form 
> of a *particular* animal. 
>  
 
If you are talking fantasy literature, you are entirely correct. This thread  
started as a discussion of the problems I was having translating the AD&D  
treasure tables to Hero System, with emphasis on the difficulties of potions of  
polymorph. 
 
> A potion is usualy a collection of Effects with the Advantage 'Trigger' 
> (being consumed). 
>  
> > Usually a VPP: Animal Powers, used with a Universal Expendable Focus. 
>  
> Try Summon, and make an Ego Roll to avoid going wild. 
>  
 
This is a novel use of Summon, but it does have real problems. You have to  
summon something with a given form, but with all of your knowledge and skills,  
and then *YOU* have to vanish. What is the limitation *I cease to exist while  
power is in effect* worth? Sounds like about a -5 or so to me... 
  
--  
 Stirling Westrup  |  Use of the Internet by this poster 
 sti@cam.org       |  is not to be construed as a tacit 
                   |  endorsement of Western Technological 
                   |  Civilization or its appurtenances. 
 
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org 
Comments: Authenticated sender is <sti@pop3.hip.cam.org> 
From: "Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> 
Organization: Stirling Westrup Consulting 
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 16:01:37 +0000 
Subject: Re: Magic Shapeshifting Potions 
Priority: normal 
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So Sayeth qts <qts@nildram.co.uk&> 
 
> On Sat, 17 Jan 1998 02:01:35 +0000, Stirling Westrup wrote: 
>  
> >So Sayeth Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net&> 
> > 
> > 
> >I like this, in general, but it needs a proper set of rules. For instance, how  
> >do you model a Fletcher? He makes charges for bows. Are they independant? How  
> >about a swordsmith. What's a sword cost in real points? 6 or 8? Why does it  
> >take more/less time to make a 6-point sword than to make a 6-point potion? 
>  
> These aren't magic items 
 
So what? In Heroic campaigns what in one genre is a mage PC creating wands for  
the whole party is, in a different genre, a Techie creating bazookas for the  
whole party... Different SFX, exact same rules problem. 
 
> >Its tricky though, so I don't expect to be happy with the rules I'm working  
> >on for a while yet. For example, can a swordsmith make a 6d6K sword? 
>  
> Sure, for a giant. For a human, he'd need to enchant it or use 
> enchanted ore, or be favoured by the gods. 
 
Why?  I am looking for a rule system here, not a bunch of random  
jurisprudence...  IE, show me some mechanics other than "GM says". As has been  
pointed out MANY times on this list, if thats all you need, then you don't need  
Hero Sys rules at all. 
--  
 Stirling Westrup  |  Use of the Internet by this poster 
 sti@cam.org       |  is not to be construed as a tacit 
                   |  endorsement of Western Technological 
                   |  Civilization or its appurtenances. 
 
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 98 16:46:24  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: campaign material 
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On Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:26:19 EST, Wgauld wrote: 
 
>Any info on Champion games on or about the city of Boston. 
> 
>thanks 
>Willie 
>Wgauld@aol.com 
> 
 
I found a great source of city info that can be used for gaming. Write to the Board of  
Tourism in the city of choice (you just wouldn't believe the amount of info I got on New  
Orleans this way) 
 
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Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 14:09:27 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
Subject: Re: Speedster Trick: Skill levels vs. time penalties. 
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
  
> No ammount of "Mechanics" skill levels will allow me or you or anyone else 
> to assemble a car's engine in under 10 seconds.  This is completely outside 
> the realm of skill levels.  They do not allow you to perform tasks faster 
> (though they do reduce the number of times you may need to try), and adding 
> a limitation will not change that. 
 
	But we are not talking about a normal person!!!  Thats the entire point of  
this discussion.  Speedsters (people who do things faster than normal [running,  
hitting, cleaning the room, setting the table]) don't take the same time to do  
things which you or I do. 
 
	 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 98 22:16:59  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Priority: Normal 
Subject: Re: Magic Shapeshifting Potions 
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On Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:03:10 +0000, Stirling Westrup wrote: 
 
>So Sayeth qts <qts@nildram.co.uk&> 
> 
>> On Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:19:52 -0500, Joe Claffey Jr. wrote: 
>>  
>> >"Stirling Westrup" <sti@CAM.ORG> asks, 
>> >> 
>> >>So how do you model the classical fantasy 'magic potion', such that a player 
>> >>character can find one in a chest and be able to use it. Drinking it lets the 
>> >>hero turn into any animal he wants, for up to 1 hour. 
>>  
>> Can you cite any sources? Usually the potion lets you assume the form 
>> of a *particular* animal. 
>>  
> 
>If you are talking fantasy literature, you are entirely correct. This thread  
>started as a discussion of the problems I was having translating the AD&D  
>treasure tables to Hero System, with emphasis on the difficulties of potions of  
>polymorph. 
 
True, but I was making the point that the AD&D effect was not true to 
the source. 
 
>> A potion is usualy a collection of Effects with the Advantage 'Trigger' 
>> (being consumed). 
>>  
>> > Usually a VPP: Animal Powers, used with a Universal Expendable Focus. 
>>  
>> Try Summon, and make an Ego Roll to avoid going wild. 
>>  
> 
>This is a novel use of Summon, but it does have real problems. You have to  
>summon something with a given form,  
 
You can use the +2 Advantage 'Summon Anything' here. 
 
>but with all of your knowledge and skills,  
>and then *YOU* have to vanish. What is the limitation *I cease to exist while  
>power is in effect* worth? Sounds like about a -5 or so to me... 
 
If you go this route, then I'd say it's a zero limitation, as the 
advantages equal the disadvantages (who'd suspect that cat of being the 
Dread Lord Ged?). I have to say that I'm not sure of this mechanism and 
have not had cause to use it, as I normally play truer to type. 
Hopefully the 5th Edition will work out this kink. 
 
It's an interesting problem. 
 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Magic Shapeshifting Potions 
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 19:26:28 -0800 
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On Friday, January 16, 1998 10:42 PM, Stirling Westrup wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
<<I like this, in general, but it needs a proper set of rules. For 
instance, how 
do you model a Fletcher? He makes charges for bows. Are they 
independant? How 
about a swordsmith. What's a sword cost in real points? 6 or 8? Why 
does it 
take more/less time to make a 6-point sword than to make a 6-point 
potion?>> 
 
<snip> 
<<Its tricky though, so I don't expect to be happy with the rules I'm 
working 
on for a while yet. For example, can a swordsmith make a 6d6K sword? 
Why 
not? Would your reason also prevent 50 stonemasons from building a 
mighty 
castle?>> 
 
 
Simple. 
 
Some things can be readily done in the real world. Some cannot. If 
something cannot be readily done in the real world, then it needs an 
SFX that allows it-- magic, super science, etc. If this SFX isn't as 
readily available as normal technology is in, say, the US, then it 
cannot be built by pure skill-- it requires that you create it with a 
Power. 
 
This power could be a VPP ("Like my Mega-Death Cannon? I built it out 
of spare parts in my lab."), or it could be something different, such 
as my construction. Allowed methods in a campaign are up to the GM. 
 
Filksinger 


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