Week Ending February 7, 1998

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Energy Blast article from website
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 00:37:47 -0800
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On Friday, January 30, 1998 1:20 PM, Dataweaver wrote:


>On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Filksinger wrote:
<snip>
>>
>> Why would immunity to Counterstrike come with Seeking? Granted,
most
>> SFX would seem to lean that way, but you either have Seeking
>> automatically gets immunity to Counterstrike, or Seeking is treated
>> just like any other EB for purposes of Counterstrike.
>>
>> I might agree with your suggestion, but I do have a tendency to
prefer
>> that only features deliberately built-in to a Power, Advantage, or
>> Limitation be given away without extra cost.
>
>I'm not seeing it as Seeking providing immunity to Counterstrike; I'm
>seeing it as Counterstrike being ineffective against Seeking (the
>difference being "which one needs to be modified to change the
>situation?"). The majority of the time, you would need a specially
>designed Counterstrike to be able to retrace a Seeking attack's route
and
>hit the source.


But that is an immunity to standard Counterstrike, obtained free with
Seeking. Furthermore, in all cases where I would state that Seeking
made one immune to Counterstrike, exactly the same arguments would
apply to Missile Reflection-- Seeking would be immune to it as well as
Counterstrike. Immunity to both powers and Advantages should cost
extra, as a rule.

Filksinger

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: TUMA Maneuvers]]
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 00:43:44 -0800
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On Friday, January 30, 1998 2:19 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
>
>BG> What I find the HSR saying (on page 141) is, "A character can
abort
>BG> his next action to perform a defensive Combat Manever or some
other
>BG> defensive action like turning on a Force Field." In this
section, it
>BG> doesn't say "any" (the word which you not unreasonably
emphasized).
>
>>> It does not need to say it.
>
>TRG> Why not?
>
>Because it should be readilly obvious to anyone with a basic
understanding
>of the English language and an ounce of common sense?


Be civil. It is impolite to claim people don't have an ounce of common
sense.

>>> My point here is that in order to use a martial maneuver as a
defensive
>>> action that maneuver must have the Abort element.
>
>TRG> Where are you getting this? Really, I'd like to know.
>
>A defensive action that one cannot abort to use is nonsensical. "A
>character can abort his next action to perform a defensive Combat
Maneuver
>or some other defensive action like turning on a Force Field." If
you
>cannot abort to perform a given action, can it really be called a
defensive
>action?


Yes. Its primary purpose, as defined by its exclusive base, is to
defend the person from damage. Therefore, it is defensive. If Abort
did not exist, or I purchased a special Block that was just like a
normal one without Abort, the Block would still be defensive.

>[...]
>
>>> TUMA changes this by allowing offensive maneuver elements on
defensive
>>> maneuver bases.
>
>TRG> Not quite. This was allowed in NH as well. Any nonexclusive
base
>TRG> can mix with any exclusive base.
>
>Except for the fact that under NH, Block always has Abort, and you
>absolutely cannot have Abort on any damaging or aggressive maneuvers.
>Therefore the Defensive Strike maneuver is illegal under NH. TUMA
changes
>that by removing Abort from Block if you add an aggressive element to
the
>maneuver base.


The wording is that Block in NH comes with a free Abort _option_. You
can opt not to have it in a Block.

Besides which, under the rules in NH, you can combine Block with
Throw. If Abort is irrevocably tied to Block in NH, then a Defensive
Throw designed in Ninja Hero, perfectly legal under the NH rules,
would be Abortable.

Filksinger

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: TUMA Maneuvers]]
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 00:48:03 -0800
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On January 30, 1998 2:23 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
>F> Your interpretation. Nowhere in the rules is this stated. The
ability to
>F> "go first" with a block is built into the definition of Block, not
>F> Abort.
>
>Nope. Read your Ninja Hero or TUMA, because nowhere in there does it
give
>the Block base, in and of itself, any ability to "go first". The
*ONLY*
>element that allows that is Abort.


It says in the first line that it is based upon normal Block. If it is
based upon normal Block, then you get all of normal Block's advantages
and limitations. Additionally, when it doesn't take the space to
detail some features, it refers you to the original Block.

Filksinger

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: TUMA Maneuvers]]
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 00:49:40 -0800
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On Friday, January 30, 1998 2:49 PM, Filksinger wrote:


<snip>
>
>1) There are already exceptions. Dive for Cover cannot normally be
Aborted to.


Oops. While Aborting an Action clearly states that _the_ usable
maneuvers are Block and Dodge, the description of Dive for Cover adds
Dive for Cover.

Filksinger

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 00:52:27 -0800
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On Friday, January 30, 1998 3:07 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

<snip>
>JaRP> I disagree. The fundamental nature of Block is Defensive,
separate
>JaRP> from any part of Abort.
>
>The fundamental nature of "Target Falls" is aggressive. That makes
the
>entire maneuver aggresive.
>
The fundamental nature of "Block" is defensive. That makes the entire
maneuver defensive.

Frankly, I don't see why you're version is superior to mine, except
that you say it is.

Filksinger

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: TUMA Maneuvers]]
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 00:57:21 -0800
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On Friday, January 30, 1998 4:31 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
>F> 1) There are already exceptions. Dive for Cover cannot normally be
>F> Aborted to.
>
>Dive for Cover always may be aborted to.


Oops. I explain the mistake in other posts.

>F> 2) The maneuver was deliberately _made_ an exception. If that
makes the
>F> system broken, too bad.
>
>Nope. The exception is in removing the Abort element from the
maneuver
>base. Steve said as much.


That is the exception to which I refer. It was made an exception to
the Abort feature, but never was made an exception to the "goes first"
feature, which is built into the description of Block and not stated
to be given by Abort in that description.

Filksinger

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 01:17:37 -0800
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On Saturday, January 31, 1998 5:35 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:


<snip>
>The point *is* agressive. Agressive maneuvers and actions are not
>defensive in nature, they are agressive.

Defensive maneuvers and actions are not agressive, they are defensive.

Seems as straightforward as yours.


If you wish, don't allow people to automatically Block before the
attacker hits. That's your call. If you wish, you can argue the order
to be "resolve block, then make DEX roll to resolve attacks, if still
necessary", to avoid the throw portion of the Defensive Throw to go
first automatically.

>Sometimes I have to wonder about
>this list, that such an obvious thing must be stated outright, and
that
>some will still disagree with it.

Please be polite. Others could say similar things about you, but
aren't. Please return the favor.

Filksinger

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Damaging Movement
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 01:21:17 -0800
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On Saturday, January 31, 1998 9:25 AM, Don McKinney wrote:


<snip>
>
>We've always done it as "side effects"; side effects which are NOT
>harmful to the user of the power (or to the vehicle in this instance)
>receive only half the limitation listed in the book. For example,
>a bazooka has side effects, but it only hits someone standing real
>close behind it when fired.
>
>So, jet fighters all have a -1/2 lim on their flight, "side effects",
>it being a 4d6EKA out the back.
>
>And we NEVER allow someone to aim a side effect... "You just can't
>maneuver like that..."
>
Save that characters in comics and people in the real world do. I
recall Iron Man setting fire to Titanium Man's armor with his jet
boots once, for example.

Besides, with this ruling, I wouldn't be able to back up to a wall,
put on my brakes, and turn on my jets to "low" to set fire to a
building.

Filksinger

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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>>>>> "RH" == Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> writes:

RH> I don't know. The act of throwing your arm up to block an incoming
RH> attack could be construed as an offensive act.

Hero game mechanics consider it defensive.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:

F> Frankly, I don't see why you're version is superior to mine, except
F> that you say it is.

Because "my" version fits Hero game mechanics and the intent of the people
who wrote the rules. Yours does not.

Or just ignore Steve Long's recent clarifications and allow the use of
Defensive Throw as a defensive action. But do not cry to him or me when
one of your players with a 60+ Strength uses it.

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 07:06:05 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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At 09:09 AM 2/1/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
>F> Frankly, I don't see why you're version is superior to mine, except
>F> that you say it is.
>
>Because "my" version fits Hero game mechanics and the intent of the people
>who wrote the rules. Yours does not.
>
>Or just ignore Steve Long's recent clarifications and allow the use of
>Defensive Throw as a defensive action. But do not cry to him or me when
>one of your players with a 60+ Strength uses it.

1. I generally don't see Bricks taking any Martial Maneuvers at all.
2. Taking Steve's clarification into consideration (that, among other
things, the "STR Strike" element was supposed to be striken from Defensive
Throw), I don't see what difference the STR of the character using it makes.
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 10:51:02 -0800
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On Sunday, February 01, 1998 5:20 AM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
>F> Frankly, I don't see why you're version is superior to mine,
except
>F> that you say it is.
>
>Because "my" version fits Hero game mechanics and the intent of the
people
>who wrote the rules. Yours does not.


According to you. I note that there are about half a dozen people who
disagree with you, and so far no one who has argued in your favor.
Accept that it is an _interpretation_.

Frankly, you may be right about the _intent_ of the rules. However, it
is most definitely not written in to them. It is ridiculous and
insulting to repeatedly claim that it is obvious and written clearly,
and that all others involved in this discussion cannot even read
correctly.

>Or just ignore Steve Long's recent clarifications and allow the use
of
>Defensive Throw as a defensive action.

Steve Long only said it could not be used with Abort. He never said
that it wasn't basically defensive, he did he ever say that it did not
get the automatic "go first" built into block, nor did he ever say
that Abort is what supplies the automatic "go first" built into
certain defensive maneuvers, but which is _not_ shared by all
defensive maneuvers with Abort.

>But do not cry to him or me when
>one of your players with a 60+ Strength uses it.


Who cares how strong the user is? It does _no_ damage, and thus I
don't care if it is used by Pre-Crisis Superman. It costs no points,
and furthermore I only claim that the _Block_ portion of the move goes
first automatically, not the Throw (which should require a separate
roll, as it is an attack and the roll for Block is not an "attack
roll").

Filksinger

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Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 19:01:40 +0000
From: Stephen McGinness <S.McGinness@csm.ex.ac.uk>
Reply-To: csm.ex.ac.uk@exeter.ac.uk
Organization: Camborne School of Mines
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
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Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> COM could very well be defined as sculpted muscles. However, I
> wouldn't allow someone to take a high PRE and COM defined as "muscular"
> unless it came with a decent amount of added STR. 15 or more, I'd say.

So why allow someone to buy the STR without the
PRE and COM that they want to derive from it??

I'm of the opinion that STR will not help you in
feats of impressiveness unless you have bought the
PRE that you should have to go along with it, or
in terms of seduction unless you have bought the
COM that you should have.

I'd go along with the summary already posted.

> COM: How attractive you look.
> PRE: How impressive you are, looks or not.
> STR: How much you can lift.
> BODY: your hit points.

It's quite simple, in Champions you get what you
pay for, even in realistic campaigns!! :-)

Stephen McGinness

> -Tim Gilberg

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Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 11:46:18 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: TUMA Maneuvers]]
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-- Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Abort gives the ability to go first in the current Phase.

ARRRGGH!! No, it doesn't. Abort allows you to use you next phase
early. And thats all it does. It does not allow you to go first. Page 31 in
the BBB, the original martial arts listing - "Abort - The character can abort
his next phase to perform this maneuver on a segment not normally his phase."
Can I point out no where does it say anything about going first.

Okay, next. Page 141, same book.(Selective Quote) "Aborting an Action
- A character can abort his next action to perform a defensive combat maneuver
or some other defensive action like turning on a force field. The useable
maneuvers are Block and Dodge."

Lastly. Page 140, same book.(Selective Quote) "Holding an Action -
Characters may choose not to act when their DEX value indicates it is their
phase. They may hold until a lower DEX value or until some other action occurs.
If two characters want to perform an action at the same time, each character
should make a DEX roll. Regardless of the roll, defensive actions (or any that
the character can abort to [NUTS.. Thats what I get when I don't read the full
paragraph. Still, I believe I have a valid platform. Lets keep going]) will go
first, the DEX roll only applies to attack or movement powers."

So what do we have? Abort allows you to take from your next phase. The
defensive maneuvers confer the ability to go first (ignoring those couple of
words in brackets). Can defensive throw be considered a defensive maneuver?
IMO, yes. Can it be aborted to? Probarly not.

As a small side issue, I got the impression that perhaps there may be
some confusion as to when you get to move. If you move on segment 3 with 20
dex, to react to somebody with 23 dex also moving on segment 3 you must use
abort. I got the impression from some of the posts that some maybe thought
differently.

Sorry about the length of this.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 11:46:18 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: TUMA Maneuvers]]
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-- Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Abort gives the ability to go first in the current Phase.

ARRRGGH!! No, it doesn't. Abort allows you to use you next phase
early. And thats all it does. It does not allow you to go first. Page 31 in
the BBB, the original martial arts listing - "Abort - The character can abort
his next phase to perform this maneuver on a segment not normally his phase."
Can I point out no where does it say anything about going first.

Okay, next. Page 141, same book.(Selective Quote) "Aborting an Action
- A character can abort his next action to perform a defensive combat maneuver
or some other defensive action like turning on a force field. The useable
maneuvers are Block and Dodge."

Lastly. Page 140, same book.(Selective Quote) "Holding an Action -
Characters may choose not to act when their DEX value indicates it is their
phase. They may hold until a lower DEX value or until some other action occurs.
If two characters want to perform an action at the same time, each character
should make a DEX roll. Regardless of the roll, defensive actions (or any that
the character can abort to [NUTS.. Thats what I get when I don't read the full
paragraph. Still, I believe I have a valid platform. Lets keep going]) will go
first, the DEX roll only applies to attack or movement powers."

So what do we have? Abort allows you to take from your next phase. The
defensive maneuvers confer the ability to go first (ignoring those couple of
words in brackets). Can defensive throw be considered a defensive maneuver?
IMO, yes. Can it be aborted to? Probarly not.

As a small side issue, I got the impression that perhaps there may be
some confusion as to when you get to move. If you move on segment 3 with 20
dex, to react to somebody with 23 dex also moving on segment 3 you must use
abort. I got the impression from some of the posts that some maybe thought
differently.

Sorry about the length of this.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 12:09:24 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@actonline.com.au>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Damaging Movement
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-- Don McKinney wrote:

> We've always done it as "side effects"; side effects which are NOT
> harmful to the user of the power (or to the vehicle in this instance)
> receive only half the limitation listed in the book. For example,
> a bazooka has side effects, but it only hits someone standing real
> close behind it when fired.
>
> So, jet fighters all have a -1/2 lim on their flight, "side effects",
> it being a 4d6EKA out the back.
>
> And we NEVER allow someone to aim a side effect... "You just can't
> maneuver like that..."

I like this. All that is required for most "real" vehicles is
an understanding of the transport modes. Most land vehicles could to
all intents and purposes be exempt from this advantage. An internal
combustion engine does produce a side effect, its just not big enough to
get any points for. Most modern boats still use props which is killing
physical and the ones that use jet propulsion have a grab at the front
and a normal physical at the back. Submersibles use props unless you
build the Red October, in which case you get sucked through suffering
NND energy attacks from the intense magnetic fields going through the
propulsion tubes.

Helicopters and prop driven aircraft have physical killing
attacks around the blades, and some of the bigger helicopters and planes
have exhaust kill zones. Jet aircraft have a TK from the front (quickly
followed by a BIG killing attack and lose of an engine.) and a killing
energy from the rear.

Spacecraft differ on their propulsion systems. Killing energy,
NND killing (really bad radiation), maybe none at all.

And of course, if this is applied to the flight systems of
heroes??
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 12:12:51 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@actonline.com.au>
Subject: Re: TUSV: Damaging Movement
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-- Damn, I forgot one. Most engines which make a lot of power make a
huge amount of noise and in some cases light. So add flash attacks as
part of the side effects.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 15:01:01 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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> RH> I don't know. The act of throwing your arm up to block an incoming
> RH> attack could be construed as an offensive act.
>
> Hero game mechanics consider it defensive.


Oh, good. Rat finally agrees with us.


-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 15:06:41 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
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> > COM could very well be defined as sculpted muscles. However, I
> > wouldn't allow someone to take a high PRE and COM defined as "muscular"
> > unless it came with a decent amount of added STR. 15 or more, I'd say.
>
> So why allow someone to buy the STR without the
> PRE and COM that they want to derive from it??

Because they don't necessarily get that PRE and COM. I said PRE
and COM defined as "muscular". I could see someone with a well-shaped
body but a very plain face having only a 10 COM. I could see a
well-shaped individual (high-STR) who has absolutely no confidence or
abilty to project a presence. Then you also have the strong men who are
more beefy then sculpted.

> I'm of the opinion that STR will not help you in
> feats of impressiveness unless you have bought the
> PRE that you should have to go along with it, or
> in terms of seduction unless you have bought the
> COM that you should have.

And again, it goes to role-playing. I don't care if I do have a 5
PRE. If my brick-level STR allows me to pick up a Yugo, I'm going to get
a bonus. That bonus probably won't allow me to out intimidate a wimp with
a 20 PRE, however. And my seduction example (which is also based on PRE,
not COM) involved a target of the seduction with a major fetish for big
muscles - not your everyday thing.

> I'd go along with the summary already posted.
>
> > COM: How attractive you look.
> > PRE: How impressive you are, looks or not.
> > STR: How much you can lift.
> > BODY: your hit points.
>
> It's quite simple, in Champions you get what you
> pay for, even in realistic campaigns!! :-)


In Champions campaigns, sure. But not in real-world campaigns.
You get whatyou pay for, and in terms of physical characteristics, they
come with some associated visual features that can't be avoided. These
features are both advantageous and disadvantageous.



-Tim Gilberg

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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 15:10:40 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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> According to you. I note that there are about half a dozen people who
> disagree with you, and so far no one who has argued in your favor.

True.

> Accept that it is an _interpretation_.

True.

> Frankly, you may be right about the _intent_ of the rules. However, it
> is most definitely not written in to them. It is ridiculous and

Agreed. Though I think the intent, at least with the two martial
arts add-ons, is along the lines of Abort not being what gives the ability
to go first.

> insulting to repeatedly claim that it is obvious and written clearly,
> and that all others involved in this discussion cannot even read
> correctly.

Quite correct. Every one of Rat's posts along these lines I seem
to see as applying only to him.

> >Defensive Throw as a defensive action.
>
> Steve Long only said it could not be used with Abort. He never said
> that it wasn't basically defensive, he did he ever say that it did not
> get the automatic "go first" built into block, nor did he ever say
> that Abort is what supplies the automatic "go first" built into
> certain defensive maneuvers, but which is _not_ shared by all
> defensive maneuvers with Abort.

Right.

> >But do not cry to him or me when
> >one of your players with a 60+ Strength uses it.
>
>
> Who cares how strong the user is? It does _no_ damage, and thus I
> don't care if it is used by Pre-Crisis Superman. It costs no points,

Again, right. Rat's above claim made no sense.

> and furthermore I only claim that the _Block_ portion of the move goes
> first automatically, not the Throw (which should require a separate
> roll, as it is an attack and the roll for Block is not an "attack
> roll").


How does this matter? If the block succeeds, there is no
incomming attack to worry about. It's been blocked. If the block fails,
the throw can't happen, as their intertwined. The block doesn't happen,
you get hit by the incoming attack, if it hits.



-Tim Gilberg

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Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:48:04 +0000
Subject: Steve Long on Herochat channell
Priority: normal
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Steve Long, author of Dark Champions, The Ultimate Martial Artist and
numerous other RPG sourcebooks, appeared for a one hour chat on
DALnet's #herochat channell, and stayed for 2. He answered all
questions, and everyone had a good time.

If you're interested in the outcome of the chat, you can find a
summation in Theala's Gossip, or the log on Shelley Mactyre's
homepage www.mactyre.net/herochat

Theala

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:

BG> 1. I generally don't see Bricks taking any Martial Maneuvers at
BG> all.

So you think American Boxing is not suitable for a brick? What about the
various flavors of Wrestling? Are these not martial arts? Are they not
primarlly practiced by "brickish" people?

What about a super team that has a charter to the effect that they are
"super police", and as such capturing criminals largely unharmed if
possible is their priority. A brick on that team that happens to be an
Aikidoka would be invaluable.

BG> 2. Taking Steve's clarification into consideration (that, among
BG> other things, the "STR Strike" element was supposed to be striken from
BG> Defensive Throw), I don't see what difference the STR of the character
BG> using it makes.

Because that fails to take *all* of Steve's comments into consideration.
Specifically, his explanation as to why Block with an aggressive element
cannot do damage, and why it loses the Abort element and the changes to the
manevuer that entails.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

RH> I don't know. The act of throwing your arm up to block an incoming
RH> attack could be construed as an offensive act.

>> Hero game mechanics consider it defensive.

TRG> Oh, good. Rat finally agrees with us.

Or you with me? But consider that Defensive Throw is more than "throwing
your arm up to block an incoming attack." It may be "throwing your arm up
in such a way that it causes the attacker to fall flat on his face." As
far as Hero is concerned those are two radically different types of
maneuvers, the former is defensive, the latter is aggressive. Defensive
maneuvers attempt to put oneself at an advantage or negate a disadvantage;
aggressive maneuvers attempt to put one's opponent at a disadvantage.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
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>>>>> "SM" == Stephen McGinness <S.McGinness@csm.ex.ac.uk> writes:

SM> So why allow someone to buy the STR without the PRE and COM that they
SM> want to derive from it??

Because there are apparantly a lot of GMs out there that do not understand
the system well enough to require that purchase.

SM> I'm of the opinion that STR will not help you in feats of
SM> impressiveness unless you have bought the PRE that you should have to
SM> go along with it,

Oh, it will add, but at best it will only add a few dice to a presence
attack.

SM> or in terms of seduction unless you have bought the COM that you should
SM> have.

A high COM is not a prerequisite for being good at seduction. A high PRE,
averageish COM seducer will play up his power, his strength, perceived or
real, use that to draw the moth to the flame. It is more difficult than
having a high COM, which is why a COM roll frequently may be used as a
supporting roll to seduction attempts.

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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 17:08:17 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Energy Blast article from website
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On Sun, 1 Feb 1998, Filksinger wrote:

> On Friday, January 30, 1998 1:20 PM, Dataweaver wrote:
>
>
> >On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Filksinger wrote:
> <snip>
> >>
> >> Why would immunity to Counterstrike come with Seeking? Granted,
> >> most SFX would seem to lean that way, but you either have Seeking
> >> automatically gets immunity to Counterstrike, or Seeking is treated
> >> just like any other EB for purposes of Counterstrike.
> >>
> >> I might agree with your suggestion, but I do have a tendency to
> >> prefer that only features deliberately built-in to a Power,
> >> Advantage, or Limitation be given away without extra cost.
> >
> >I'm not seeing it as Seeking providing immunity to Counterstrike; I'm
> >seeing it as Counterstrike being ineffective against Seeking (the
> >difference being "which one needs to be modified to change the
> >situation?"). The majority of the time, you would need a specially
> >designed Counterstrike to be able to retrace a Seeking attack's route
> >and hit the source.
>
>
> But that is an immunity to standard Counterstrike, obtained free with
> Seeking. Furthermore, in all cases where I would state that Seeking
> made one immune to Counterstrike, exactly the same arguments would
> apply to Missile Reflection-- Seeking would be immune to it as well as
> Counterstrike. Immunity to both powers and Advantages should cost
> extra, as a rule.

True enough; Missile Reflection, when used against a Seeking attack,
should be treated merely as Missile Deflection, unless an appropriate
Advantage is applied to it. Either that, or add a Limitation to both that
says "cannot be used against Seeking attacks" - and remember to add this
limitation to nearly every character who currently has Missile Reflection.

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 17:31:58 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: TUSV: Damaging Movement
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On Sun, 1 Feb 1998, Filksinger wrote:

> On Saturday, January 31, 1998 9:25 AM, Don McKinney wrote:
>
>
> <snip>
> >
> >We've always done it as "side effects"; side effects which are NOT
> >harmful to the user of the power (or to the vehicle in this instance)
> >receive only half the limitation listed in the book. For example,
> >a bazooka has side effects, but it only hits someone standing real
> >close behind it when fired.
> >
> >So, jet fighters all have a -1/2 lim on their flight, "side effects",
> >it being a 4d6EKA out the back.
> >
> >And we NEVER allow someone to aim a side effect... "You just can't
> >maneuver like that..."
> >
> Save that characters in comics and people in the real world do. I
> recall Iron Man setting fire to Titanium Man's armor with his jet
> boots once, for example.

IIRC, that was an accident.

> Besides, with this ruling, I wouldn't be able to back up to a wall,
> put on my brakes, and turn on my jets to "low" to set fire to a
> building.

Maybe there should be a rule in H5 that allows a character to use a power
in a way thatis technically outside of its normal bounds, but requires GM
approval and a character-point expenditure; that way, you don't have to
dream up every possible application of your powers as you envision them
during character creation, nor do you have to wait until you can afford to
purchase a power all at once to be able to use it.

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 17:55:07 -0600
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David Fair writes:

>I don't give bonuses to seduction rolls for people with high STR (this
>did start as a discussion involving high STR characters as being
>impressive, and more attractive to members of the opposite sex, after
>all).

You are only partly correct. The main thrust of what started this is
whether or not a high STR character looks muscular. The attractive and
impressive part were just sidebars.

>I don't assume that a high STR character has to look like a high
>STR character, whether it is a "reality-based" campaign or not.

If you don't think humans in a realistic campaign who have high STR should
look muscular regardless of their COM or PRE you need to think again.
Looking muscular by itself doesn't necessarily make someone more attractive
or more impressive, but it will generally have an effect. In the REAL
world high STR people have REAL muscles. These muscles take space and
generally show, REALLY.

>Since the system has given me a mechanic for gauging ones impressiveness
>(PRE, which can reflect his Physical attributes as well as
>Personality-based ones) and his looks (COM), I choose to use them. Giving
>the abilities of these characteristics to someone who has simply bought a
>high STR defeats the purpose of having the stats at all, as well as
>playing a point-based system.

STR can and does modify the impressiveness of a character. PRE may be the
base of impressiveness but how can you claim that with equal PRE a character
with high STR will only be as impressive as one without high STR and nothing
to take its place?

Alan


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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 17:57:10 -0600
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>Yes, I'm referring to the fact that, in general, increases a character's
>STR by 10 reduces his or her total cost by 1.

Only if that character had already bought up his PD, REC, and STUN before
buying the STR and then keeping the stats at their previous level. Just
when is this supposed to realistically happen? During character design? Or
later? If the former then he isn't saving points he is spending points, 10
of them to be precise. Using that logic I just "saved" a fortune at Sam's
Warehouse today. Of course, all my wife sees is that I "spent" 133 dollars.
If
the latter, then what kind of GM is going to allow a character to do this.
"Hello, Mr./Ms. GM, I would like to increase my STR by 10 points but keep
all of the characteristics I previously bought the same and then spend my
extra point on another point of STR."

>> 10) I shoot this guy with a Limited EB that only hurts people who have
>> above average STR. He gets hit with damage and 10 STR Man doesn't.
>> 8) In a Fantasy Hero adventuring party he would wind up getting stuck
>> carrying a larger share of the treasure and equipment, simply because he
>> can.
>> 6) In a murder mystery adventure he could be a suspect if the victim was
>> strangled with nearly inhuman strength.
>> 5) If Mind Controlled and ordered to punch himself, it would hurt worse.
>
>By this logic, every useful ability should give points back.


Not using logic. Just doing what you asked and pointing out situations in
which a 20 STR character is limited more than a 10 STR character. If you
want a logical discussion of something else you need to ask.

>> 9) If I Drain or Transfer the 10 STR away he loses the other benefits as
>> well, which he wouldn't if he bought them separately.
>
>Eh? He wouldn't have those abilities (the far-jumping, thing-lifting, and
>opposite-sex-impressing) at all if he hadn't bought the STR.

I certainly feel worse when I have lost something that I had instead of not
ever having had it at all. Except, Love.

>> 7) In Espionage, he would not be able to go unnoticed as easily.
>> 2) Will more often be assumed to be "dumb."
>
>These seem to assume that a character with high STR necessarily looks more
>muscular, which is sort of reasonable in a heroic campaign bu certainly
>not generally true.

STR is a END using ability. Most reasonable people would assume it to need
a visible special effect. I am sure someone will claim "It's not a power.
It doesn't have to have a special effect." I did say "assume." I also said
"reasonable." I would require a reason why a high STR character doesn't
have visible muscles.

My original statement stated "in some situations." Not in all situations.
Not in most situations. Simply, "in some situations." Thank you, for
finding at least some of my reasons reasonable, at least, "sort of."

>> 1) He wouldn't be able to resist slugging me for some of the above
reasons.
>
>And this isn't a drawback.:)


Trust me, it is, most definitely, for him at least.

I didn't mean to start off another round of arguing. C'mon guys most of my
"ten reasons" post was just a joke.

Alan




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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:15:53 -0600
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>So why allow someone to buy the STR without the
>PRE and COM that they want to derive from it??
>
>I'm of the opinion that STR will not help you in
>feats of impressiveness unless you have bought the
>PRE that you should have to go along with it, or
>in terms of seduction unless you have bought the
>COM that you should have.
>
>I'd go along with the summary already posted.
>
>> COM: How attractive you look.
>> PRE: How impressive you are, looks or not.
>> STR: How much you can lift.
>> BODY: your hit points.
>
>It's quite simple, in Champions you get what you
>pay for, even in realistic campaigns!! :-)


Seems to me that you are assuming that a character with high STR shouldn't
have visible muscles that represent that high STR. You seem to base this on
your opinion that those visible muscles will be impressive.

Without the PRE to back it up the visible muscles simply won't be
impressive. The use of those muscles, on the other hand, CAN add to the
dice of a presence attack. This means to me that high STR can, not will but
can, make a character more impressive. Just like an EB or KA or any other
possibly violent power can. Not all of the time, but definitely in a
situation where the character is trying to be impressive. If you don't
believe this I must ask you if, and if you do, then why do you allow players
to add dice to their PRE attacks through violent actions?

Alan

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Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 18:36:05 -0600
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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At 11:02 PM 2/1/98 -0800, Jim Dickinson wrote:
>I want to hear, as specifically as you care to get, what makes Hero less
>attractive -- assuming that the genre is attractive, and that the "feel" of
>the system (e.g. generally cinematic) is good -- and what scares them away?
>
>I think two words sum it up: Math and Complexity

[clip]

HERO math can be tedious when you don't have a calculator, but at least you
CAN do it on a watch-calculator or $2 special. To put it another way,
there's nothing mathematically in HERO more complicated than calculating a
batting average, which at least half of all kids in America learn
voluntarily before the age of 12. ;] I don't see the math as REALLY scary
until you start needing *scientific* calculators.

>But I don't want to miss anything important. Hence this query to the
>finest Hero minds on the net:
>
>What are the "horrors of Hero"? What parts of this game are often too
>complex or "scary" for new players? What needs to be simplified?

At least one definite "horror of HERO" I've encountered time and again is
that nobody THINKS of it as "HERO". It's "Champions". If I had a dime for
every time someone told me that "Champions is only good for superheroes"
when I want to run a Star HERO or Fantasy HERO or
Custom-Genre-That-Only-Works-In HERO, I'd own TSR.

I think HERO's vaunted and infamous "complexity" is more a matter of
reputation than reality. HERO is *not* really any more complex to play than,
say, AD&D, which most gamers I know started with. But it does LOOK more
complex -- all those scary CHAR and cryptic abbreviations (like, oh, "CHAR"
:] ) filling up the sheet. Oh, yes, and it includes 2-digit numbers, a
definite phobia amongst today's avant gaming crowds. :^/

I think what HERO needs is some kind of "aversion therapy", to whit a
walk-through similar to the "10 Ideas" that open up the =DC Heroes= rules.
The general ideas of HERO (CHAR rolls, Skill rolls, attack and damage
resolution, mental combat, etc.) aren't that tough to learn -- and if
today's crop of gamer can learn and account for the effects of 1,000
different "Magic: The Gathering" cards, they can learn HERO dammit. :]

--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:39:44 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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> BG> 1. I generally don't see Bricks taking any Martial Maneuvers at
> BG> all.
>
> So you think American Boxing is not suitable for a brick? What about the
> various flavors of Wrestling? Are these not martial arts? Are they not
> primarlly practiced by "brickish" people?

That's been my observation, but . . .

> What about a super team that has a charter to the effect that they are
> "super police", and as such capturing criminals largely unharmed if
> possible is their priority. A brick on that team that happens to be an
> Aikidoka would be invaluable.

Oh, quite true. In fact, I've been toying with adding a
Block+Grab maneuver to mirror the effects of neutralizing an incoming
attack by physically restraining the attacker.

> BG> 2. Taking Steve's clarification into consideration (that, among
> BG> other things, the "STR Strike" element was supposed to be striken from
> BG> Defensive Throw), I don't see what difference the STR of the character
> BG> using it makes.
>
> Because that fails to take *all* of Steve's comments into consideration.
> Specifically, his explanation as to why Block with an aggressive element
> cannot do damage, and why it loses the Abort element and the changes to the
> manevuer that entails.


Block with an agressive element is not why it can't do damage. It
can't do damage because it cannot have two exclusive maneuver bases, plain
and simple. Technically, one could put the +v/5 damage element onto a
similar maneuver and allow damage, but I'm not sure if I'd allow it. t
is, technically, legal under both NH and UMA.

Steve said that the Abort element isn't allowed on these moves not
so much because they are normally damaging moves, but because it was a
balancing factor. Allowing someone, at any time, if they have an action
phase or not, to go into a maneuver that puts someone on the ground might
be unbalancing, even if said maneuver doesn't do damage. The move is
limited by the fact one must either be using it on one's own phase or
holding a phase.

The move is still quite defensive, Rat. It depends on defending
against an incoming attack to work.

Compare, as I earlier pointed out, to a Throw constructed with the
Throw+Strike elements. It cannot be aborted to, but with a held phase it
can be used to throw an opponent, doing damage, and stopping an incoming
attack. It just requires a Dex roll to go first as it is offensive.
(Strike-based=offensive).

The defensive throw doesn't need a Dex roll to go first as it is
defensive. (Block-based=defensive). It trades the ability to do damage
for the ability to stop an incoming attack without needing a DEX roll to
go first.



-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:42:59 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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> Or you with me? But consider that Defensive Throw is more than "throwing
> your arm up to block an incoming attack." It may be "throwing your arm up
> in such a way that it causes the attacker to fall flat on his face." As

Not much difference. It's just a matter of which way you move.
Both are defensive reactions.

> far as Hero is concerned those are two radically different types of
> maneuvers, the former is defensive, the latter is aggressive. Defensive

Nope. Throwing your opponent before he attacks you would be
offensive. It would also be simulated by a Strike+Throw.

> maneuvers attempt to put oneself at an advantage or negate a disadvantage;
> aggressive maneuvers attempt to put one's opponent at a disadvantage.


Right. The Defensive Throw blocks an incoming attack and (maybe)
puts the attacker on the ground, putting me at an advantage. Sounds
defensive to me.

And with your logic, Rat, what about an attack with the "You Fall"
element. Putting yourself on the ground is hardly giving oneself an
advantage.


-Tim Gilberg

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Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:45:28 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
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> STR can and does modify the impressiveness of a character. PRE may be the
> base of impressiveness but how can you claim that with equal PRE a character
> with high STR will only be as impressive as one without high STR and nothing
> to take its place?


Thanks for the assist -- I hate to disagree with you here.

The high-STR character will only get an advantage in cases where
being big and Strong would be important. Something like smashing a can,
or something.

In the case of, say, a speech in front of a jury, the extra STR
don't make a bit of difference.



-Tim Gilberg

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 22:13:27 -0800
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On Sunday, February 01, 1998 12:26 PM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:


<snip>
>
>> and furthermore I only claim that the _Block_ portion of the move
goes
>> first automatically, not the Throw (which should require a separate
>> roll, as it is an attack and the roll for Block is not an "attack
>> roll").
>
>
> How does this matter? If the block succeeds, there is no
>incomming attack to worry about. It's been blocked. If the block
fails,
>the throw can't happen, as their intertwined. The block doesn't
happen,
>you get hit by the incoming attack, if it hits.
>
Yes, if the block fails, I get hit, assuming his attack roll was
sufficient. However, I don't necessarily see the success of the block
being required for the throw.

I might only partly deflect the blow, still getting hit, but not
Stunned, and complete the throw. I might manage to connect to the
attacker's arm immediately after his wimpy punch strikes me, allowing
me to them perform the throw.

Just because the Block succeeded doesn't mean the Throw succeeded.
Just because the Block failed doesn't mean the Throw failed.

YMMV, of course. In fact, if you think the Block/Throw combo is
slightly abusive, you can always make the Throw require a successful
Block _and_ an attack roll.

Filksinger

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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 01 Feb 98 22:20:02 -0800
Subject: Re: TUSV: Damaging Movem
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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b > This is, by the way, something that didn't make it into the First
b > of TUSV because I wasn't sure how to handle it. Rockets to a lot of
b > damage, and a person could be badly hurt by spinning helicopter rotors
b > airplane propeller (as demonstrated in "Raiders of the Lost Ark"), but
b > really uncertain as to whether such a thing should be a Side Effect
b > Limitation, a Linked [sorry] Power, or just something so secondary,
b > advantageous and disadvantageous, that the Vehicle should get it
b > simply by definition.
b > I probably should have asked the list long ago, but... what do you
b > think? (I suspect that I'll be no less confused when the discussion
b > over....)
b > ---
b > Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
b > ---


I remember Exhaust was one of the most anoying things in the old
vehicle rules (the most anoying was the 'waste space' result on the
vehicle hit location chart... I hit the vehicle for 72 BOD against
it's 6 DEF, but hit 'waste space' so nothing happens... sheesh).

Exhaust was bad because it gave you this nasty attack for no points.
So, I guess I'd be for making any 'Exhaust' a linked attack... I know
it gets expensive, but you can indeed point your afterburners at
someone and toast them, so you should pay for it.

BTW, one time someone in a game I was in did turn thier vehicles
massive Exhaust KA on a character... who happened to have Reflection,
which, at that time took a penalty based on the points in the power...
and the Exhaust cost no points... ;)


___
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 22:27:07 -0800
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On Sunday, February 01, 1998 4:10 PM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:


<snip>
>
> Thanks for the assist -- I hate to disagree with you here.
>
> The high-STR character will only get an advantage in cases where
>being big and Strong would be important. Something like smashing a
can,
>or something.
>
> In the case of, say, a speech in front of a jury, the extra STR
>don't make a bit of difference.


Actually, you aren't disagreeing with him. I was going to respond to
that comment myself, until I realized that his other posts were saying
essentially what you are saying-- that, at appropriate times, flexing
muscles (exhibiting power) and threats or crushing things (violent
actions) can be used to increase a PRE attack, but at other times they
just aren't appropriate.

Filksinger

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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 01 Feb 98 22:29:04 -0800
Subject: Re: Riposte
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
> >>>>> "BS" == Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu> writes:
> BS> Having fenced for a couple of years myself, the lack of a riposte
> BS> maneuver became glaringly apparent.
>
> Um... riposte is a Block maneuver, followed by an attack on your next
> action phase.
>

True, but it's still a specific manuever, something like

Riposte +2 OCV +2 DCV +2 DC Strike, must follow a Block... 4 pts

would nicely represent it. Pretty obvious, really, one of the first
manuevers I tried to build when I got Ninja Hero - that and an 'Evade'
- a Full-Move-Dodge. :) Steve Long actually put similar manuevers in
UMA... I think they were called a 'Return Strike' and a 'Flying Dodge'
respectively.

> [...]
>
> BS> Riposte 1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +0 DCV, Block/Strike, Abort. Cost: 5
> pts.
>
> Blatantly illegal, verboten in Hero. You cannot abort to a maneuver
> does damage (regardless that The Ultimate Martial Artist breaks itself
> this fashion).

What was it a Block/Throw? I think that one just put you on the ground
but did no damage...
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From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 01 Feb 98 22:36:06 -0800
Subject: Limitation/AP mods idea
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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c > From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
c >
c > On the separate note, if the above suggestion is rejected, should not
c > occasionally a character be allowed to choose whether a given
c > advantage or
c > limitation affects active cost? This gives greater flexibility in
c > determining END costs, while trading off the benefit for a shorter
c > range,
c > easier-to-dispel active power.
c > ---

I see your point... I don't think it would make a big difference
very often - the biggest thing about Apts is whether they get past
a given GMs Apt limits - and those are often negotiable... I could
see 'declaring' a power to have a lower 'Active Cost' as a not
unreasonable trade-off between END cost, and vulnerability to
Adjustment powers. Call it a '-0 Limitation' .. I'd keep an eye
on it though.
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 01 Feb 98 22:42:08 -0800
Subject: Genetic engineering
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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g > From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
g >
g > package deals for genetically engineered humans who colonize
g > not-quite-Earthlike planets. In my campaign timeline, the
.....
g > Several purchases of Life Support are clearly in order. However, it
g > will be limited in two ways: (1) it still doesn't allow unaided surviv
g > in this harsh environment, and wouldn't be *quite* as damaged
g > unaltered human by sudden exposure to the outdoors. Partial
g > protection, . (2) Within a few more generations,
g > terraformed and there will be no need for this genetic alteration;
g > different every couple of decades. For this reason, the gene therapy
g > not permanent, and each colonist is given an annual "booster shot"
g > without which he begins to revert to human norms and becomes unable to
g > survive. This limitation may be so small as to be worth no point
g > Continuing Charges which last for a year push that limitation well
g > into the advantage side, and Dependence is worth nothing if you only ne
g > substance annually.

Either take the Life Supports, and difine a large Limitation for the
'only partial protection' and just toss the booster shots in with that,
or define it as a Talent or Perk at whatever point level seems apropriate
to you.

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Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 23:02:08 -0800
From: Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: The Horrors of Hero?
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Before anyone overreacts, the Subject line was meant to catch your
attention more than anything, but it very much has to do with the subject
of this message. I am hoping to gather YOUR thoughts on what you believe
to be "non-Hero" players' reason for not playing Hero.

It is my opinion, and I'm sure most here agree, that this system is by far
one of the best RPG game systems ever written. That's why we play it! But
if this is true, why aren't others jumping on the bandwagon? What has
stopped them over the past 15 years?

I want to hear, as specifically as you care to get, what makes Hero less
attractive -- assuming that the genre is attractive, and that the "feel" of
the system (e.g. generally cinematic) is good -- and what scares them away?

I think two words sum it up: Math and Complexity

I think that any time you need a calculator (or a computer program) in
order to make a character, you are in a zone that *most* RPGers don't want
to tread. I also think that new players are scared off by some of Hero's
more complex rules -- rules you and I like for their utility and
versatility, but they are complicated enough to make many people shy away.

For example:
This game uses all d6's. How hard can that be? Seems less complex than
polyhedral dice used in AD&D, right? Sure, but then new players see that
there are multiple ways to read results from those dice, like counting them
twice...once for Stun and then again for Body. And then not all damage is
rolled the same: Normal attacks roll dice differently from Killing attacks,
etc.

I am considering submitting a proposal to Gold Rush Games and/or Hero Plus
that will offer rules variations that simplify Hero without changing any of
the core mechanics, so that GMs have simpler rules to use at a convention,
or when introducing new players to the game. And then they can graduate
those players to the full rules system without the players having to
"unlearn" any of the first rules they learned (they would have to do this
with Fuzion, for example).

But I don't want to miss anything important. Hence this query to the
finest Hero minds on the net:

What are the "horrors of Hero"? What parts of this game are often too
complex or "scary" for new players? What needs to be simplified?

Thanks in advance for you honest advice.

Jim

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 23:27:21 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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-- Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> The point *is* agressive. Agressive maneuvers and actions are not
> defensive in nature, they are agressive. Sometimes I have to wonder about
> this list, that such an obvious thing must be stated outright, and that
> some will still disagree with it.

I don't know. The act of throwing your arm up to block an incoming
attack could be construed as an offensive act.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 08:14:22 +0000
From: Stephen McGinness <S.McGinness@csm.ex.ac.uk>
Reply-To: csm.ex.ac.uk@exeter.ac.uk
Organization: Camborne School of Mines
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
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Remnant wrote:
> >It's quite simple, in Champions you get what you
> >pay for, even in realistic campaigns!! :-)
>
> Seems to me that you are assuming that a character with high STR shouldn't
> have visible muscles that represent that high STR. You seem to base this on
> your opinion that those visible muscles will be impressive.

I think someone who is visibly muscular _is_
impressive and therefore you should buy the PRE to
simulate that impressiveness. People _will_ look
at someone who is so muscular and think WOW he
looks very strong!! In a realistic campaign the
purchase of such PRE _should_ be compulsory. If
you do not buy the PRE then you are suggesting
that the character does not look impressively
strong and therefore not muscular. I'm not saying
it's impossible, it's the way I see the system
model realistic campaigns. Just because STR
doesn't give you PRE like a figured characteristic
doesn't mean that STR shouldn't make you more
impressive, it just means you've got to spend the
points on it.

If you don't spend the points then you don't get
the benfits. It really is a simple premise. I can
as a GM accept that a very strong character will
not look strong, if everyone insists that it is a
realistic campaign and he will look strong and
impressive then I say to him that he must purchase
teh PRE to obtain that look, if it is a california
beach campaign then I will also make him buy the
COM that goes with that too!! :-)

> Without the PRE to back it up the visible muscles simply won't be
> impressive. The use of those muscles, on the other hand, CAN add to the

Without the PRE to back it up he will not be able
to use that strength to intimidate people, he'll
still look impressive.

> dice of a presence attack. This means to me that high STR can, not will but
> can, make a character more impressive. Just like an EB or KA or any other
> possibly violent power can. Not all of the time, but definitely in a
> situation where the character is trying to be impressive. If you don't
> believe this I must ask you if, and if you do, then why do you allow players
> to add dice to their PRE attacks through violent actions?

My last post does seem to say that doesn't it!! I
didn't mean it to. I will allow strength to add to
presence attacks and so the use of STR can make
you more impressive. It is this particular case of
realistic campaigns where people want to have
bulging muscles because they buy high STR. Well
the campaign rules may tell you that if you have
high STR then this must be reflected in your
musculature, which is a fancy way of telling you
that you had better buy some PRE if you want the
high STR.


All in my humble opinion of course. :-)



Stephen

> Alan

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 08:22:04 +0000
From: Stephen McGinness <S.McGinness@csm.ex.ac.uk>
Reply-To: csm.ex.ac.uk@exeter.ac.uk
Organization: Camborne School of Mines
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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Jim Dickinson wrote:
> I want to hear, as specifically as you care to get, what makes Hero less
> attractive -- assuming that the genre is attractive, and that the "feel" of
> the system (e.g. generally cinematic) is good -- and what scares them away?

I think part of the problem is the way the system
works. It is based on getting the powers to model
the effects that you want to achieve. It isn't
always a simple case of buying the power that
seems to be called something close to what you
want, you have to put some effort into it. If you
want to mind control people into believing you are
not there than you don't buy mind control, you
tend to buy a limited invisibility! It causes
people to shrivel up and wonder why they aren't
playing something simple like AD&D!! ;-)

> I think two words sum it up: Math and Complexity

That too!! :-)

> Thanks in advance for you honest advice.
>
> Jim


It's a good subject!! I have tried for years to
push the system at people but most of them really
do shy away and go back to systems they like. For
shame some of them actually go to things like
Heroes Unlimited because they like all the cool
background stuff and alignment systems for God's
sake! No matter what you do there will be people
who just don't appreciate a good thing when they
see it!!



Stephen

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 04:26:57 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> At 11:02 PM 2/1/98 -0800, Jim Dickinson wrote:
> >I want to hear, as specifically as you care to get, what makes Hero less
> >attractive -- assuming that the genre is attractive, and that the "feel" of
> >the system (e.g. generally cinematic) is good -- and what scares them away?
> >
> >I think two words sum it up: Math and Complexity
>
> [clip]
>
> HERO math can be tedious when you don't have a calculator, but at least you
> CAN do it on a watch-calculator or $2 special. To put it another way,
>

You know, I switched to Hero for two reasons back in 1985:
1) point based, I didn't like dice, not relevant to this discussion.
2) It was simpler than 'the other stuff'.
After all, as I saw it, everything could be done by rolling 3d6 and
trying to get <= to a number on a sheet somewhere.

That was much simpler than one system for avoiding posion, one
for picking pockets, another for secret doors, and yet another
for to hit rolls, spell lists in the 1000's, etc...
And then there was chartmaster(rolemaster)... Aftermath...
Space Opera, Traveller, heck, even V&V is more complex.

Ok, so character creation was more involved, but that didn't even
phase me to be honest. And it's never phased anyone I've met.

Somewhere in the early 90's I started hearing people say Hero was too
complex. All the people shouting this out to the world were Hero players
themselves. Not, from what I encountered; non hero people who had been
turned away.
It was like a mad dash to see who could shoot themselves in the foot
fastest.

Now, how is I never had the problems these people claimed?

Well, lets take a look at my first experience with Hero.
I'd never played a Super game at the time, and my comics had been
confined to Conan.
So it was a Champions game, and I had no genre familiarity.

To make my character I flipped through a Dragon magazine till I
found a neat picture, a 'Tengu' for an add to Bushido (Tengu are humanoid
Ravens, more or less).
I showed it to the GM and he said ok, I told him I wanted a guy
with martial arts, a sword, and wings. He wrote some stuff down and
then handed me a sheet.

He told me all I needed to do was roll 3d6 when I tried something
and try to get <= to the number listed on the sheet. He pointed to another
set of xd6 numbers and said if you hit something, roll one of those depending
on what you did to hit them.

In about 5 minutes I was swooping down out of the air to stop a bank
robbery and slashing at a bug green guy with my sword.
When I rolled the dice and didn't know what it meant, the other's
helped me out, showing me as we went along.

It took me about 1 hour in play to memorize the whole essentials
of 2nd edition Champions in play. A week later I had my own copy (3rd
edition) and sat down to learn character generation.

As I'd already found play fun and easy, the character gen didn't phase
me. It was actually fun to be able to go that deep into a character.

> >But I don't want to miss anything important. Hence this query to the
> >finest Hero minds on the net:
> >
> >What are the "horrors of Hero"? What parts of this game are often too
> >complex or "scary" for new players? What needs to be simplified?
>
> At least one definite "horror of HERO" I've encountered time and again is
> that nobody THINKS of it as "HERO". It's "Champions". If I had a dime for
> every time someone told me that "Champions is only good for superheroes"

True.

> I think HERO's vaunted and infamous "complexity" is more a matter of
> reputation than reality. HERO is *not* really any more complex to play than,
> say, AD&D, which most gamers I know started with. But it does LOOK more
> complex -- all those scary CHAR and cryptic abbreviations (like, oh, "CHAR"
> :] ) filling up the sheet. Oh, yes, and it includes 2-digit numbers, a
> definite phobia amongst today's avant gaming crowds. :^/
>
It's definatly repuation. But it's also approach.
For an example; look at the way we discuss the game in here and the newsgroup.
We don't talk about concepts, we talk numbers. We fight over trivial things
like weather linked math's this way or that. Rather than discussing plot
and characterization, we go off on 1/4 this times X dived by whatever gives
you that when applied to power Z.

Now go into a forum for a WW game, half the posts are group fiction,
reviews of products, or 'cool genre ideas'.

Now, it's this way in person to. Go to a con and listen to how people
talk about their favorite games.
Hero people don't talk about genre, roleplay, and creative fiction.
They talk numbers.
If I was looking to get into roleplay and didn't know better, I'd find
Hero people to be a turn off.
WW people (to use a popular contrast) are dramatic and into their
roles. They go through the same complexity in the playing their games, rolling
their dice, or whatever. But when they 'talk shop', it sounds like the local
drama club minus good acting. :)


> I think what HERO needs is some kind of "aversion therapy", to whit a
> walk-through similar to the "10 Ideas" that open up the =DC Heroes= rules.
> The general ideas of HERO (CHAR rolls, Skill rolls, attack and damage
> resolution, mental combat, etc.) aren't that tough to learn -- and if
> today's crop of gamer can learn and account for the effects of 1,000
> different "Magic: The Gathering" cards, they can learn HERO dammit. :]

Oh gods yes. I was a subscriber to a few magic lists for a bit, and
they're shaping up to be worse than us when it comes to getting complex
and obscure.
But they present a good public front. A bunch of kids shouting at
the local comic store over who's winning or losing. Draws the eyes of the kid
looking at the shelves and trying to find a new hobby.

I think what we need to do is start presenting ourselves better.
Don't let on to how complex it can get.
Hide the math to newbies by making their characters for them, based on what
they describe.
Help them count the dice.
Don't debate linked in front of them.
Debate Superman's new blue or red look, or the virtues/flaws of the X-Men, but
not weather slick is a transform or a change environment or a whatever...

Keep those debates private to the Hero veterans.

We have to show people what's fun about.

Now my comments have been Super oriented, but it works for any genre.

And one thing that's needed, more con games being run with the
intention of appealing to newbies.
Most con games I see tend to go into cryptic debates and attract
Hero Guru's while shunning new faces.
Need to make those simple games with pregen characters and just hand
the newbies 3d6 and a concept. Then let them have at it. After they've been
hooked they can learn the complex stuff.

Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 13:46:14
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: TUMA Maneuvers]
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "RH" == Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> writes:
>
> RH> And you have a problem with defensive throw also being classified
> RH> as defensive?
>
> Yes I do, because it has an aggressive element. The maneuver *base*, the
> Block, is defensive. But the maneuver as a whole is not because it has an
> aggressive element. A defensive maneuver cannot be aggressive in any way.

Since in real life aggressive activity is classified as "defensive" on a regular basis, I assume you must be talking about the game. Fine. Show me where, in the game, it states that defensive maneuvers cannot be offensive in any way, and I'll grant you that point, on the condition that you do not attempt to feed me that line that anything that cannot be Aborted to is automatically not defensive.

Filksinger


____________________________________________________________________
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 05:52:02 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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At 05:50 PM 2/1/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>
>BG> 1. I generally don't see Bricks taking any Martial Maneuvers at
>BG> all.
>
>So you think American Boxing is not suitable for a brick? What about the
>various flavors of Wrestling? Are these not martial arts? Are they not
>primarlly practiced by "brickish" people?
>
>What about a super team that has a charter to the effect that they are
>"super police", and as such capturing criminals largely unharmed if
>possible is their priority. A brick on that team that happens to be an
>Aikidoka would be invaluable.

I've not only seen it but done it. Note the word "generally" above.
Still, I have yet to see a STR 60 brick take any martial arts, and
certainly I don't see full-fledged bricks taking Kung Fu or Tae Kwon Do.

>BG> 2. Taking Steve's clarification into consideration (that, among
>BG> other things, the "STR Strike" element was supposed to be striken from
>BG> Defensive Throw), I don't see what difference the STR of the character
>BG> using it makes.
>
>Because that fails to take *all* of Steve's comments into consideration.
>Specifically, his explanation as to why Block with an aggressive element
>cannot do damage, and why it loses the Abort element and the changes to the
>manevuer that entails.

Okay, so what difference exactly does the STR of the character make when
he's performing a Defensive Throw?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm


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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 05:53:32 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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At 06:39 PM 2/1/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> Oh, quite true. In fact, I've been toying with adding a
>Block+Grab maneuver to mirror the effects of neutralizing an incoming
>attack by physically restraining the attacker.

This would be a very appropriate maneuver for Krav Maga (another martial
art that can be appropriate for a low-level brick).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 98 09:28:03 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
cc: <champ-l@omg.org>
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On 1/31/98 1:43 PM Tim R. Gilberg (trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu) Said:

> I'm rambling, but the point is that STR, DEX, BOD, CON, whatever
>do carry some associated visual characteristics, in a realistic campaign.
>This does not mean that a high STR character is more impressive or better
>looking. It does mean that someone can tell he's strong.

Sure, the High STR Character may look strong, but may not look
impressivly strong. IOW, his 20 STR may just look like a 14 STR. People
can tell that he is strong but not how strong he is.

Have you ever watched powerlifting? These guys are not in the greatest
physical shape; many are overweight, most are big, but not all that
impressive looking when not lifting something. Sure thay look strong, but
do they look THAT strong? Not usually. (Say 20 STR, 12 PRE & 12 COM)

On the other hand, body builders who don't have a prayer of lifting what
the powerlifters do, LOOK far stronger than the powerlifter! This is a
case of 13 STR, 20 PRE & 18 COM.

Of course, all this is simply the NORMAL case; theree are exceptions and
in role-playing you can do whatever you like. I just don't thinks anyone
with a high STR should try to use it like PRE, without paying for the PRE
as well.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 98 09:48:07 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 2/1/98 6:55 PM Remnant (easleyap@mobis.com) Said:

>
>STR can and does modify the impressiveness of a character. PRE may be the
>base of impressiveness but how can you claim that with equal PRE a character
>with high STR will only be as impressive as one without high STR and nothing
>to take its place?

That would depend on why the second character bought a high PRE. Is he a
powerful mafiaosa, unable to be intimidated? That calls for a high PRE.
Does he have powerful political ties? High PRE.

An infomercial host with a well-oiled sales pitch can be far more
impressive to the potential customer than the physique laden guinea pig
who runs on the treadmill while Slick does the talking.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 10:02:34 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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> Yes, if the block fails, I get hit, assuming his attack roll was
> sufficient. However, I don't necessarily see the success of the block
> being required for the throw.

I very much do, on the other hand.

> I might only partly deflect the blow, still getting hit, but not
> Stunned, and complete the throw. I might manage to connect to the
> attacker's arm immediately after his wimpy punch strikes me, allowing
> me to them perform the throw.

That's not a block/throw, then. You're talking about a straight
up throw. With the throw+strike elements.

> Just because the Block succeeded doesn't mean the Throw succeeded.
> Just because the Block failed doesn't mean the Throw failed.

We're not talking about a block then throw maneuver. We're
talking about a block maneuver that happens to direct an attacker to the
ground. It's one move, not two.

> YMMV, of course. In fact, if you think the Block/Throw combo is
> slightly abusive, you can always make the Throw require a successful
> Block _and_ an attack roll.


I'd put it only on the block roll. If it works, attacker is going
to the floor unless a breakfall roll is made. If it doesn't work, the
attack flies free and no throw can be made.



-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 11:09:10 EST
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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I think your two words summed it up quite nicely: math and complexity. The
Hero System's diversity and flexibility also seem to be what cause some
newcomers to shy away from it. IMHO, most new Hero SYstem players have been
brought into the fold by actually playing in a game rather than by first
buying the rules book.

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:04:40 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Limitation/AP mods idea
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On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> "Darien Phoenix Lynx" wrote:

> On Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:43:32 -0600 (CST), Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>
> >To help clarify, explain to me why a personal immunity EB has a longer
> >range, costs more END and is more difficult to dispel than a regular
> >EB--even though it's actively the same EB. Or half-end, or variable SFX,
> >and so on. We're not talking about damage AT ALL, but these other effects
> >of active points. Considering that you favor DC limits over AP limits, you
> >shouldn't be concerned about changing active costs... it won't affect your
> >campaign balance, but it will affect the range, END cost, and
> >drain/dispelibility of some powers.
>
> Try looking at it from a Fantasy angle: an EB is a straight-forward
> effect, but imagine an AD&D wizard with a Fireball spell. Now, if he
> casts it in a restricted space, he's going to get blasted too. So he
> adds in PI, making the spell *more complex*, and thus increasing the
> APs. Likewise with VSFX, becaus e the wizard can change the EB from a
> Cone of Cold to a Cone of Salt, the spell is more complex. Because the
> spell is more complex, it takes a more powerful Dispel to counter.
>
> Does this help?
> qts

Hmm... there's an example of where the personal immunity is in the active
power. But with many special effects, the personal immunity has nothing to
do with the active power. Like Cyclops, with his personal immunity to his
energy blast... it's not that the blast is more powerful or more complex,
but that his skin can metabolize it. In this case the personal immunity
should not affect the active cost if the player doesn't wish it.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

>> Yes, if the block fails, I get hit, assuming his attack roll was
>> sufficient. However, I don't necessarily see the success of the block
>> being required for the throw.

TRG> I very much do, on the other hand.

Huzza! Hell is certainly freezing over, now. :)

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From: "Desmarais, John" <jdesmara@novanthealth.org>
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:16:32 -0500
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---Jim Dickinson wrote:
>
> Before anyone overreacts, the Subject line was meant to catch your
> attention more than anything, but it very much has to do with the
subject
> of this message. I am hoping to gather YOUR thoughts on what you
believe
> to be "non-Hero" players' reason for not playing Hero.
>
> It is my opinion, and I'm sure most here agree, that this system is by
far
> one of the best RPG game systems ever written. That's why we play it!
But
> if this is true, why aren't others jumping on the bandwagon? What has
> stopped them over the past 15 years?
>
> I want to hear, as specifically as you care to get, what makes Hero
less
> attractive -- assuming that the genre is attractive, and that the
"feel" of
> the system (e.g. generally cinematic) is good -- and what scares them
away?
>
> I think two words sum it up: Math and Complexity
>
> I think that any time you need a calculator (or a computer program) in
> order to make a character, you are in a zone that *most* RPGers don't
want
> to tread. I also think that new players are scared off by some of
Hero's
> more complex rules -- rules you and I like for their utility and
> versatility, but they are complicated enough to make many people shy
away.

Sort of, except that it really isn't that complex. All of the math
involved is stuff you learned in elementry school and should be able to
do in your head [depending on which school system you attended and
whether or not you wre forced to lived through the horrors of "New Math"
- but that's a whole other complaint...] : )

I think it's more a matter of perception of complexity than actual
complexity. When you are first exposed to the rules, there is something
intimidating about them. There really aren't any particularly complex
concepts in the rules. "Here's your points, here's how much everything
costs, add it up and go". I think with many new player, the fact that
it's not a class based system (unlike what was probably their first
game) my overwhealm them. I've had this problem recently with my
girlfriend. She expressed an interest in playing, but when I asked her
to describe the character she'd like to play, she just froze up for a
while.

Something that may help, since the rules are being revisited anyway, may
be to include archetype templates (a tamplate would be much more
complete than a package deal) for the standard superhero archetypes.
Basically, prespend about 200 points (leave the new player 50 points to
"custumize" the character) towards building a Brick, Energy Blaster,
Martial Artist, etc.. (hmmm.... I may go ahead and do this myself to
use in my games....). While it may go against the "classless system"
concept, I think it would make things easier for neophites.

Next problem - there is the the rule books themselves. While easy for
an experienced player to use as reference, somehow they miss the mark
for showing a new player how to play. I'm not really sure what's
missing, more examples might help (but I really don't think that's all
of it); but back in ths dark ages when I first started playing
Champions, reading the rules didn't give me anywhere near a feel for the
game that my first session playing did.


-=>John Desmarais

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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>>>>> "RH" == Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> writes:

RH> And you have a problem with defensive throw also being classified
RH> as defensive?

Yes I do, because it has an aggressive element. The maneuver *base*, the
Block, is defensive. But the maneuver as a whole is not because it has an
aggressive element. A defensive maneuver cannot be aggressive in any way.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:

BG> Still, I have yet to see a STR 60 brick take any martial arts, and
BG> certainly I don't see full-fledged bricks taking Kung Fu or Tae Kwon
BG> Do.

The Kung Fu styles tend to be "softer" arts, but arts like Tae Kwon Do or
Muay Thai, more "boxing" styles, are well-suited for bricks.

[...]

BG> Okay, so what difference exactly does the STR of the character make
BG> when he's performing a Defensive Throw?

Well, if you chose to ignore Steve's clarifications, you chose to ignore
the fact that "STR Strike" is a typo.

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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Jim Dickinson\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 19:50:38
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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On Sun, 01 Feb 1998 23:02:08 -0800, Jim Dickinson wrote:

>Before anyone overreacts, the Subject line was meant to catch your
>attention more than anything, but it very much has to do with the subject
>of this message. I am hoping to gather YOUR thoughts on what you believe
>to be "non-Hero" players' reason for not playing Hero.
>
>It is my opinion, and I'm sure most here agree, that this system is by far
>one of the best RPG game systems ever written. That's why we play it! But
>if this is true, why aren't others jumping on the bandwagon? What has
>stopped them over the past 15 years?
>
>I want to hear, as specifically as you care to get, what makes Hero less
>attractive -- assuming that the genre is attractive, and that the "feel" of
>the system (e.g. generally cinematic) is good -- and what scares them away?
>
>I think two words sum it up: Math and Complexity

More like Ignorance and Inertia.

Most RPers haven't even heard about Hero, and of those who have, most
are happily playing AD&D, and are content to stay so.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:53:51 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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On Mon, 2 Feb 1998, "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> "Jim Dickinson" wrote:

> On Sun, 01 Feb 1998 23:02:08 -0800, Jim Dickinson wrote:
>
> >Before anyone overreacts, the Subject line was meant to catch your
> >attention more than anything, but it very much has to do with the subject
> >of this message. I am hoping to gather YOUR thoughts on what you believe
> >to be "non-Hero" players' reason for not playing Hero.
> >
> >It is my opinion, and I'm sure most here agree, that this system is by far
> >one of the best RPG game systems ever written. That's why we play it! But
> >if this is true, why aren't others jumping on the bandwagon? What has
> >stopped them over the past 15 years?
> >
> >I want to hear, as specifically as you care to get, what makes Hero less
> >attractive -- assuming that the genre is attractive, and that the "feel" of
> >the system (e.g. generally cinematic) is good -- and what scares them away?
> >
> >I think two words sum it up: Math and Complexity

Personally I wonder sometimes if the system is complex enough. Am I a
heretic? The system is so granular that players are always trying to get
the most out of their points. they won't put an extra limitation on a
power if it doesn't save them points. Why have 7 charges when you can have
8--that sort of nonsense. HERO becomes a game-playing game, not a
role-playing game, when the numbers become king, and efficiency rather
than character takes the sway of our hearts.

My players are always playing number games and I don't know how to get
them to stop. They whine and whine when I don't let something gratuitous
slip into an EC or multipower. They freak when I say their STR doesn't fit
the character. They can't stand the fact that I rule Flash defense OIF
goggles doesn't work vs. an optic nerve-shorting attack--in short they put
game mechanics over "real" mechanics, game effects over special effects.
Frankly, I'd be much happier if they were ignorant newbies with a
character concept and let me design their characters. But when you know
the system, it's too hard to overlook the things which make your character
more "game-effective," and character concept changes when the numbers
don't work right. It's this horrific reversal, or reverse-engineering, of
the HERO system that causes much of the ill and makes me want to crawl,
exhausted, to a "simpler" role-playing system where at least everything is
spelled out, no matter how many pages it takes.

The best way I think HERO games can combat this effect is to give the
spirit of the rules sidebars I talked about before... they need to give
GMs in the trenches a hand in doing the regulation and spirit-preservation
that is so desperately needed to prevent a HERO game from degenerating
into a farce.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 15:02:04 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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>RH> And you have a problem with defensive throw also being classified
>RH> as defensive?
>
>Yes I do, because it has an aggressive element. The maneuver *base*, the
>Block, is defensive. But the maneuver as a whole is not because it has an
>aggressive element. A defensive maneuver cannot be aggressive in any way.

Missile Reflection. Explain that, please, Rat. You can even abort to it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And go on to rule this world from beyond the grave."
"Indeed!"
"That, or check into a mental hospital; whatever comes first."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:31:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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John and Ron Prins writes:

> Missile Reflection. Explain that, please, Rat. You can even abort to it.

Can you? I've always ruled that you cannot abort to reflect, you can only
abort to deflect.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "JaRP" == John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> writes:

JaRP> Missile Reflection. Explain that, please, Rat. You can even abort to it.

It is a legacy of the second edition of the game.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: noconv

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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
\

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:07:57 -0500 (EST)
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Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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>> Missile Reflection. Explain that, please, Rat. You can even abort to it.
>
>Can you? I've always ruled that you cannot abort to reflect, you can only
>abort to deflect.

Reflection is just an option of Deflection. You can Abort to Deflect
(explicitly), and the Reflection bit says nothing about changing this. And
what about Reflection at Range? I have a hard time calling deflecting a shot
meant for somebody else as a 'purely defensive' action. But it's still
Missile Deflection and you can Abort to it. And the SFX of a particular
Reflection might _require_ someone to reflect (no choice; like some sort of
'feedback' power) to deflect.

Reflection has an 'agressive' componant to it but it's _still_ defensive.
It's _primary_ purpose is _still_ to keep an incoming attack from damaging
the PC. Exactly the same way that the Defensive Throw's _primary_ purpose is
to stop an incoming attack. If it's got a small offensive componant to it,
so what? Defensive Throw explictly loses Abort in its construction,
according to TUMA. Missile Reflection does not explicitly lose Abort in BBB,
so it must still have it. It is, after all, still primarily a defensive power.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And go on to rule this world from beyond the grave."
"Indeed!"
"That, or check into a mental hospital; whatever comes first."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:19:03 -0500 (EST)
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Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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>JaRP> Missile Reflection. Explain that, please, Rat. You can even abort to it.
>
>It is a legacy of the second edition of the game.

That doesn't change the fact that it kinda blows your argument out of the
water...you _can_ have 'defensive' actions with 'agressive' componants, in
4th Edition HERO.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And go on to rule this world from beyond the grave."
"Indeed!"
"That, or check into a mental hospital; whatever comes first."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: geoff@emerald.omg.org
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 17:22:28 -0500
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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>>JaRP> Missile Reflection. Explain that, please, Rat. You can even abort
to it.
>>
>>It is a legacy of the second edition of the game.
>
>That doesn't change the fact that it kinda blows your argument out of the
>water...you _can_ have 'defensive' actions with 'agressive' componants, in
>4th Edition HERO.

And it's hardly fair to wave off anything which doesn't fit in with your
particular interpretation as "legacy of old editions".

Geoff Speare

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 16:22:43 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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> BG> Still, I have yet to see a STR 60 brick take any martial arts, and
> BG> certainly I don't see full-fledged bricks taking Kung Fu or Tae Kwon
> BG> Do.
>
> The Kung Fu styles tend to be "softer" arts, but arts like Tae Kwon Do or
> Muay Thai, more "boxing" styles, are well-suited for bricks.

Well, I could come up with a nice pacifistic brick, but that's not
the point.

> BG> Okay, so what difference exactly does the STR of the character make
> BG> when he's performing a Defensive Throw?
>
> Well, if you chose to ignore Steve's clarifications, you chose to ignore
> the fact that "STR Strike" is a typo.


Not quite. STR Strike is a typo officially corrected in the UMA
released in Hero Plus format. That is seperate from anything Steve may
have clarified. (And you deliberately misinterpreted, but that's not the
point.)



-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 16:23:49 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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> > Missile Reflection. Explain that, please, Rat. You can even abort to it.
>
> Can you? I've always ruled that you cannot abort to reflect, you can only
> abort to deflect.


What's the rationale? I don't really see one other than, "The GM
says so." I'd feel quite cheated if a GM pulled that kind of ruling.



-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 16:24:55 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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> JaRP> Missile Reflection. Explain that, please, Rat. You can even abort to it.
>
> It is a legacy of the second edition of the game.


And a Throw that was considered defensive, could be aborted to,
and did damage was a legacy of the third edition of the game.

What's your point?


-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:25:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
Cc: champ-l@omg.org, champ-l@omg.org
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Tim R. Gilberg writes:

> What's the rationale? I don't really see one other than, "The GM
> says so." I'd feel quite cheated if a GM pulled that kind of ruling.

The rationale is 'missile reflection is not a defensive action' ;).

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "Warren E Henderson III" <warren@newenglandpc.net>
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 98 23:46:47
Reply-To: "Warren E Henderson III" <warren@newenglandpc.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: RE:The Horrors of Hero?
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>It is my opinion, and I'm sure most here agree, that this system is by far
>one of the best RPG game systems ever written. That's why we play it! But
>if this is true, why aren't others jumping on the bandwagon? What has
>stopped them over the past 15 years?

It has been my experience that Hero's biggest problem is why you would want to play it, You can do
ANYTHING with the system. Seeings as you can, the rules just cover the mechanics of the system rather
than developing a setting. Hero can easily overwhelm new players with the amount of stuff they can do,
AD&D it cast spells, or swing a sword. That being said I have to back track, I play FH not Champions and
don't know what the campiagn settings are like. Something else is the lack of any ready to run (once again
Champions excepted). Not that it would be easy to write something, Characters can be anything the players
care to create.

>>Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes:

>> It's definatly repuation. But it's also approach.
>> For an example; look at the way we discuss the game in here and the newsgroup.
>> We don't talk about concepts, we talk numbers. We fight over trivial things
>> like weather linked math's this way or that. Rather than discussing plot
>> and characterization, we go off on 1/4 this times X dived by whatever gives
>> you that when applied to power Z.


>Very good point ! I subscribe to the list mainly for plot ideas, character ideas, and the like. Stuff that should
>be system transparent. However, as Brian
>points out, most of the discussion is rules/mechanics-oriented.

>Curt Hicks

I think this has something to do with how you learn Hero, point costs are well spelled out in the books. A little
more emphasis on using the system to create what you want, rather than what you can create with 75 points
would help. Though this is a little unfair to FH 2nd ed, they do have a section from developing your
character, but it think an example of how to take a concept and turn it into a character would be a good
thing. GURPs did this in their core rule book.

>My players are always playing number games and I don't know how to get
>them to stop. They whine and whine when I don't let something gratuitous
>slip into an EC or multipower. They freak when I say their STR doesn't fit
>the character. They can't stand the fact that I rule Flash defense OIF
>goggles doesn't work vs. an optic nerve-shorting attack--in short they put
>game mechanics over "real" mechanics, game effects over special effects.
>Frankly, I'd be much happier if they were ignorant newbies with a
>character concept and let me design their characters. But when you know
>the system, it's too hard to overlook the things which make your character
>more "game-effective," and character concept changes when the numbers
>don't work right. It's this horrific reversal, or reverse-engineering, of
>the HERO system that causes much of the ill and makes me want to crawl,
>exhausted, to a "simpler" role-playing system where at least everything is
>spelled out, no matter how many pages it takes.

Yuck, It not easy to deal with human nature, its a rare player that will create a less effective character than
they can. If the people you play with are willing, try having them write up the concept of their character and
then you can create it with the rules so you are comfortable with the characters in your setting. I wouldn't be
to hopeful of pulling this trick off, but if you do manage it, at least after the first whinathon you can have a
good idea of how they are going to spend there points and try to keep things in line but creatively not allowing
everything they want. Instead of saying 'No I don't want you to have that' have an adventure for something
(material, knowledge, et al) that might convince them not to get it after all.

>Most RPers haven't even heard about Hero, and of those who have, most
>are happily playing AD&D, and are content to stay so.
>qts

I am not so shure about 'happily' the classes get pretty restrictive after awhile. Or maybe it would be better to
say there isn't much difference available. Alignment isn't much of a motivation or hook to build your character
around. Besides the dice make or break you from the start and stats never improve except through magic.




Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 18:01:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject: The Horrors of Hero?
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Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net> wrote:

> I think two words sum it up: Math and Complexity
>
> I think that any time you need a calculator (or a computer program) in
> order to make a character, you are in a zone that *most* RPGers don't want
> to tread.

You do NOT NEED a calculator, let alone a &&)(%^*&% spreadsheet to make
a character !!!! (I have never understood the appeal of Heromaker).

Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes:

>
> It's definatly repuation. But it's also approach.
> For an example; look at the way we discuss the game in here and the newsgroup.
> We don't talk about concepts, we talk numbers. We fight over trivial things
> like weather linked math's this way or that. Rather than discussing plot
> and characterization, we go off on 1/4 this times X dived by whatever gives
> you that when applied to power Z.
>
> Now go into a forum for a WW game, half the posts are group fiction,
> reviews of products, or 'cool genre ideas'.
>
> Now, it's this way in person to. Go to a con and listen to how people
> talk about their favorite games.
> Hero people don't talk about genre, roleplay, and creative fiction.
> They talk numbers.


Very good point ! I subscribe to the list mainly for plot ideas, character ideas, and the like. Stuff that should be system transparent. However, as Brian
points out, most of the discussion is rules/mechanics-oriented.

Curt Hicks

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "john martin" <jmartin04@snet.net>
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 19:43:56 -0500
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-----Original Message-----
From: Desmarais, John <jdesmara@novanthealth.org>
To: champ-l@omg.org <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Monday, February 02, 1998 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?


>
>---Jim Dickinson wrote:
>>
>
>I think it's more a matter of perception of complexity than actual
>complexity. When you are first exposed to the rules, there is something
>intimidating about them. There really aren't any particularly complex
>concepts in the rules. "Here's your points, here's how much everything
>costs, add it up and go". I think with many new player, the fact that
>it's not a class based system (unlike what was probably their first
>game) my overwhealm them. I've had this problem recently with my
>girlfriend. She expressed an interest in playing, but when I asked her
>to describe the character she'd like to play, she just froze up for a
>while.
>
>Something that may help, since the rules are being revisited anyway, may
>be to include archetype templates (a tamplate would be much more
>complete than a package deal) for the standard superhero archetypes.
>Basically, prespend about 200 points (leave the new player 50 points to
>"custumize" the character) towards building a Brick, Energy Blaster,
>Martial Artist, etc.. (hmmm.... I may go ahead and do this myself to
>use in my games....). While it may go against the "classless system"
>concept, I think it would make things easier for neophites.
>
>Next problem - there is the the rule books themselves. While easy for
>an experienced player to use as reference, somehow they miss the mark
>for showing a new player how to play. I'm not really sure what's
>missing, more examples might help (but I really don't think that's all
>of it); but back in ths dark ages when I first started playing
>Champions, reading the rules didn't give me anywhere near a feel for the
>game that my first session playing did.
>
>
>-=>John Desmarais
>

Give this man a cigar! I believe that the biggest problem facing the Hero
rules system is dangerous Game Masters. The rules are written to allow for a
great degree of interpretation; the hallmark of a good Hero GM is one who
clearly spells out, in word and deed, his or her particular slant on a
variety of issues. Newbies can easily be intimidated by the furious rules
debates which can (and oh so often do) erupt in the midst of a session. The
vocabulary can be quite confusing! It is important for the GM to take charge
and provide an environment in which the player's main responsibility is to
interact with each other and the world they are playing in; mechanics should
be as transparent as possible. Any rules debate which lasts more than 30
seconds is a sign that it is time for a quick break - the GM can discuss the
problem, in private, with the parties involved.

The first time I played a Hero games was Champs; The GM and I developed
my character over beer and pizza one night and we played the next week - I
told him what I wanted to be able to do, and he worked the mechanics. He and
a more experienced player took charge of me when we played and all I had to
do was roll dice and lose myself in pulse-pounding, superheroic action!!

As GM's, we need to get players PLAYING; the rules can come later.


Salve!

Marty

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 16:52:06 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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> > >of this message. I am hoping to gather YOUR thoughts on what you believe
> > >to be "non-Hero" players' reason for not playing Hero.
> > >
> > >It is my opinion, and I'm sure most here agree, that this system is by far
> > >one of the best RPG game systems ever written. That's why we play it! But
> > >if this is true, why aren't others jumping on the bandwagon? What has
> > >stopped them over the past 15 years?
> > >
> > >I want to hear, as specifically as you care to get, what makes Hero less
> > >attractive -- assuming that the genre is attractive, and that the "feel" of
> > >the system (e.g. generally cinematic) is good -- and what scares them away?
> > >
> > >I think two words sum it up: Math and Complexity
>
> Personally I wonder sometimes if the system is complex enough. Am I a
> heretic? The system is so granular that players are always trying to get
> the most out of their points. they won't put an extra limitation on a
> power if it doesn't save them points. Why have 7 charges when you can have
> 8--that sort of nonsense. HERO becomes a game-playing game, not a
> role-playing game, when the numbers become king, and efficiency rather
> than character takes the sway of our hearts.
>

This is true.

> My players are always playing number games and I don't know how to get
> them to stop. They whine and whine when I don't let something gratuitous
> slip into an EC or multipower. They freak when I say their STR doesn't fit
> the character. They can't stand the fact that I rule Flash defense OIF
> goggles doesn't work vs. an optic nerve-shorting attack--in short they put
> game mechanics over "real" mechanics, game effects over special effects.
>

The solution I used, which has worked, was to set no point limits.No limits on
max disads, no base points declared, no maxes whatsoever.

I simply told them to build to a given power level, and to not be stronger or
weaker
than that power level.

This immediatly meant that all those nifty point saving methods were useless
wastes of
time and effort. Why save points when you have an unlimited amount?
Why get useless disads that don't fit the concept when you can just up the base
points?

Some people might say, so why get any disads at all?

Well, there's the old concept argument, but I don't expect a problem player to see
eye to
eye with me on that one.

So then I fall back on the power level setting. If I've told my players I've
set a power level
of X, and I will judge PC's based on that power level, and not on points; then
they will do what they
can to fit that power level.
The worst they will do is try to sneak things in that defy the level and hope
I don't catch them. And I
do have one player who'se been trying this.

The point system doesn't work to balance a character. Pure and simple. Given
time and effort I can
build a 250 character that will take Mechanon hands down.
But if you ignore that, and set power level limits instead, you'll get a
balanced power level. The min
maxing tricks will disapear as soon as players realize they don't do them any
good. All you'll be left
with on the sheet is the stuff that fits the concept.

And frankly, some of the best ways of doing things to concept are often very
high point cost without
adding any power level. Once I remove the points limits, players start using those
things over the silly
krocks designed to fit a concept into too few points.


> Frankly, I'd be much happier if they were ignorant newbies with a
> character concept and let me design their characters. But when you know
> the system, it's too hard to overlook the things which make your character
> more "game-effective," and character concept changes when the numbers
> don't work right. It's this horrific reversal, or reverse-engineering, of
> the HERO system that causes much of the ill and makes me want to crawl,
> exhausted, to a "simpler" role-playing system where at least everything is
> spelled out, no matter how many pages it takes.
>

Setting point limits rather than concept or power level limits is whatcauses
this situation to develop.
Set very clear rules on concept and power level and the problem will fade.
It will take some players a while to adjust. My power gamer failed to read the
entirity of the concept sections of my ground rules the first few attempts, but
after
quoting sections of it after each question the problem has cleared up.

All of them kept asking me where to set their base points, to which I gave
cryptic 'Kosh'
like answers or told them whatever was needed.
In the end I ended up with a group of PC's built around my power level
settings that
difered in points by about 100 from the low to the high. For the most part they
are all
close in functional power level, save for the two who insisted on being 'weaker'
than the settings.
Which was in itself an interesting phenominon (sp?). I didn't set points and
gave rather
vague power levels, but stated my own prefs where a bit more specific that what I
was letting on.
As a result one player who chose a PC with various multiple sub powers (a
gadgeteer) lowered his
power level to avoid he perceived would be a ban for being both too diverse and
powerful. Without a
clear definition of points, the only guide he had was final overall power. He felt
that having individual
powers at the full power level, but having an unlimited numbe of diferent ones;
would mean he would
be too powerful to get by me. Since he certainly couldn't argue that it was only a
X active point power
on a Y point character and therefore legit. :)

In the end, that worked out great.

I spent years trying to get players to shove a concept into my point settings,
and wondering why they
kept min maxing even when asked not to. I came up with my current idea on a whim,
and it seems to
work perfectly. It just means that we I view a PC submission I have to look at
overall effectivness of
the character and ignore the numbers and details. But they know coming in that I'm
going to be judging
their power and not their points. And they don't know when and were I will get
picky; so they have to
become judges of their own power as well.

No more of that 'just why does it not work in magnetic fields during full
moons again?'

> The best way I think HERO games can combat this effect is to give the
> spirit of the rules sidebars I talked about before... they need to give
> GMs in the trenches a hand in doing the regulation and spirit-preservation
> that is so desperately needed to prevent a HERO game from degenerating
> into a farce.

This would be a good idea. And I hope that a signifigant portion of the genre
books
to fifth edition deal with this issue.


--
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 17:08:12 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> > I think two words sum it up: Math and Complexity
> >
> > I think that any time you need a calculator (or a computer program) in
> > order to make a character, you are in a zone that *most* RPGers don't want
> > to tread.
> You do NOT NEED a calculator, let alone a &&)(%^*&% spreadsheet to make
> a character !!!! (I have never understood the appeal of Heromaker).

Well, I use heromaker for the printouts. I type it all in, then print it out on paperand save a copy to text so I can cut and paste it into html. :)


> > It's definatly repuation. But it's also approach.
> > For an example; look at the way we discuss the game in here and the newsgroup.
> > We don't talk about concepts, we talk numbers. We fight over trivial things
> > like weather linked math's this way or that. Rather than discussing plot
> > and characterization, we go off on 1/4 this times X dived by whatever gives
> > you that when applied to power Z.
> >
> > Now go into a forum for a WW game, half the posts are group fiction,
> > reviews of products, or 'cool genre ideas'.
> >
> > Now, it's this way in person to. Go to a con and listen to how people
> > talk about their favorite games.
> > Hero people don't talk about genre, roleplay, and creative fiction.
> > They talk numbers.
>
> Very good point ! I subscribe to the list mainly for plot ideas, character ideas, and the like. Stuff that should be system transparent. However, as Brian
> points out, most of the discussion is rules/mechanics-oriented.

Yeah, the number of times I've just gotten sick of seing debate on how a manuever in TUMA works,
or Linked, or whatever...
I've been one mouse click away from unsubscribing several times.

Until 1989 I'd never even seen a rules debate for Hero. It had all been just about 'being Heroes' for
me and my group before that. But in 1989 we got us a new GM from a note in the rec.games.frp
newsgroup. We wanted a fresh outlook. We got us a college kid new to the system via the BBB who
debated every single rule in the book. By himself even if we didn't join in.

We tossed him in two weeks and went back to being heroes.
Course, it meant I and one other guy got stuck as the GM's again...

Didn't see another debate until I got here.

I just don't feel it's worth it. It's exhausting, turns off newbies, and never gets anywhere.
Frankly, I could care less what the rest of you think about how linked works. You're not in
my games. If you were, we'd probably do it my way when I GM'd, your way when you did.
I do desire to know about how you do the genre you do. Or what plots you find work best,
or cool characters you have. But I don't want to debate the third power in your second EC and
how the lim that makes it not work under situation X shouldn't be worth Y. I might want to know
the idea behind it though. So I could adapt it in my way.


Just find a group of like minded people and hold a game according to the rules as you see them.
And focus on being Heroes, regardless of exact genre.


--
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 19:33:33 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org


> > I think that any time you need a calculator (or a computer program) in
> > order to make a character, you are in a zone that *most* RPGers don't want
> > to tread.
>
> You do NOT NEED a calculator, let alone a &&)(%^*&% spreadsheet to make
> a character !!!! (I have never understood the appeal of Heromaker).

Maybe not need, but pretty close. Most people, even those "good"
in math, easily can mess up a long column of addition and fractional
multiplication and division. A calculator helps to assure proper
adherence to points. HeroMaker does the same, also allowing quick
calculation to compare APs and RPs.

What I like best about HeroMaker, however, is the fact that I
don't lose characters anymore. I'm bad at holding on to paper, but I can
always reprint a character sheet. It also makes small changes easier to
impliment without making a mess of a character sheet.


-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: traveler owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 19:57:31 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On Mon, 2 Feb 1998, Curt Hicks wrote:

>
> Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net> wrote:
>
> > I think two words sum it up: Math and Complexity
> >
> > I think that any time you need a calculator (or a computer program) in
> > order to make a character, you are in a zone that *most* RPGers don't want
> > to tread.
>
> You do NOT NEED a calculator, let alone a &&)(%^*&% spreadsheet to make
> a character !!!! (I have never understood the appeal of Heromaker).

Simple; do you want to keep track of the numbers by hand, or do you want a
program to do it for you? IMHO, it doesn't matter how easy or difficult
it is to do by hand; having a program do it for you is easier.

> > It's definatly repuation. But it's also approach.
> > For an example; look at the way we discuss the game in here and the
> > newsgroup. We don't talk about concepts, we talk numbers. We fight
> > over trivial things like weather linked math's this way or that.
> > Rather than discussing plot and characterization, we go off on 1/4
> > this times X dived by whatever gives you that when applied to power Z.
> >
> > Now go into a forum for a WW game, half the posts are group
> > fiction, reviews of products, or 'cool genre ideas'.
> >
> > Now, it's this way in person to. Go to a con and listen to how
> > people talk about their favorite games.
> > Hero people don't talk about genre, roleplay, and creative
> > fiction. They talk numbers.
>
> Very good point ! I subscribe to the list mainly for plot ideas,
> character ideas, and the like. Stuff that should be system transparent.
> However, as Brian points out, most of the discussion is
> rules/mechanics-oriented.

So maybe H5 should put more emphasis on concepts (if it can do so without
detracting from the rules ;) ).

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 18:10:16 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> What I like best about HeroMaker, however, is the fact that I
> don't lose characters anymore. I'm bad at holding on to paper, but I can
> always reprint a character sheet.

Yeah, after losing over 200 characters and 8 years of notes in a monsoon in
1993, I can say this is a major plus. :)
Also, I can't even read the handwriting of some of my players, myself among
them (bad
went you can't read your own handwriting half the time.). :)

--
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: jrc@pop1.nai.net
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:15:05 -0500
From: "Joe Claffey Jr." <jrc@mail1.nai.net>
Subject: Re: Riposte
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

Opal@october.com (Opal) wrote,
>True, but it's still a specific manuever, something like
>
>Riposte +2 OCV +2 DCV +2 DC Strike, must follow a Block... 4 pts

That's exactly the Counterstrike maneuver from TUMA. It would work well in
a cinematic swashbuckling package.

Joe Claffey | "In the end, everything is a gag."
jrc@ct1.nai.net | - Charlie Chaplin


Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 18:17:35 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

At 06:01 PM 2/2/1998 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote:
>
>Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net> wrote:
>
>> I think two words sum it up: Math and Complexity
>>
>> I think that any time you need a calculator (or a computer program) in
>> order to make a character, you are in a zone that *most* RPGers don't want
>> to tread.
>
>You do NOT NEED a calculator, let alone a &&)(%^*&% spreadsheet to make
>a character !!!! (I have never understood the appeal of Heromaker).

You might if you tried it. Personally, I'm going out for Creation
Workshop and Hero Creator almost as soon as it comes out.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm


Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: TUMA Maneuvers]
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 02 Feb 1998 21:38:23 -0500
Lines: 29
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:

F> Since in real life aggressive activity is classified as "defensive" on a
F> regular basis, I assume you must be talking about the game. Fine. Show
F> me where, in the game, it states that defensive maneuvers cannot be
F> offensive in any way,

Pardon me for being a smartass about this one, but the BBB does not need to
define "offensive" and "defensive". Anyone with *any* comprehension of
English will find the two to have diametrically opposed meanings without
the necessity of reprinting half of Webster's New World Dictionary.

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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
\

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 18:48:45 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "RH" == Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> writes:
>
> RH> I don't know. The act of throwing your arm up to block an incoming
> RH> attack could be construed as an offensive act.
>
> Hero game mechanics consider it defensive.

And you have a problem with defensive throw also being classified as
defensive?
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 02 Feb 1998 21:53:43 -0500
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "JaRP" == John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> writes:

JaRP> That doesn't change the fact that it kinda blows your argument out of
JaRP> the water...you _can_ have 'defensive' actions with 'agressive'
JaRP> componants, in 4th Edition HERO.

Yes, and they are specifically mentioned in the BBB, those two powers being
Reflection and Dispell. *ONLY* those two powers have specific exceptions
within the system, no other powers, no other maneuvers, nothing in Ninja
Hero or The Ultimate Martial Artist.

If it does not have a specific exception then it is *NOT* the rule, no
matter how much you wish it so.

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--
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and
\ kept under refrigeration.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 18:55:35 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Steve Long on Herochat channell
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 27

Alas, 1 o'clock Sunday afternoon in LA turned out to be about 8
o'clock Monday morning in Australia. Ah, well. The problems with having
to support a morgage.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 02 Feb 1998 21:57:08 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

>> It is a legacy of the second edition of the game.

TRG> And a Throw that was considered defensive, could be aborted to,
TRG> and did damage was a legacy of the third edition of the game.

TRG> What's your point?

Simply that certain aspects of the system that came down from earlier
editions were not changed to fit into the fourth edition mold.

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--
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 19:07:41 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net
From: Kim <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Villain Help:Disco Fever
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

Ok, I know this is a strange request but I was wondering could I get help
with a concept. As you may have guessed the villain is named "Disco Fever".
Basically an alien lifeform, based on pure energy that became enamored with
Earth...at least the United States durning the 70's. After years of
experimentation it finally managed to assume a corporeal form and visit its
paradise... only to find it horribly changed. It wants to set things "right"
and has the powers to do it. I just need help with some of those powers. :)

I had thought of a change enviorment (70's decor and imagery, sound track,
etc) but beyond that I am a little stuck. Any suggestions?

I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
But it sure feels good!
Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:16:09 -0600
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Stephen McGinness wrote:

>I think someone who is visibly muscular _is_
>impressive and therefore you should buy the PRE to
>simulate that impressiveness. People _will_ look
>at someone who is so muscular and think WOW he
>looks very strong!! In a realistic campaign the
>purchase of such PRE _should_ be compulsory. If
>you do not buy the PRE then you are suggesting
>that the character does not look impressively
>strong and therefore not muscular. I'm not saying
>it's impossible, it's the way I see the system
>model realistic campaigns. Just because STR
>doesn't give you PRE like a figured characteristic
>doesn't mean that STR shouldn't make you more
>impressive, it just means you've got to spend the
>points on it.


I am sorry that you can't imagine someone who is strong and muscular-looking
but who is overall not very impressive. I am sorry that you think that
impressiveness is solely based on physical appearance. If that is that way
you want to play it you should probably go ahead and make them buy extra
BODY to represent the extra mass and extra EGO to represent the discipline a
heavily muscled person would have to have to do the working out required to
maintain those muscles.

In my game we always look at each character individually and make decisions
and opinions based on the player's character concept. We did have a GM who
forced his opinions of our character concepts down our throats, but no one
will find that body anytime soon. :-)

>If you don't spend the points then you don't get
>the benfits. It really is a simple premise. I can
>as a GM accept that a very strong character will
>not look strong, if everyone insists that it is a
>realistic campaign and he will look strong and
>impressive then I say to him that he must purchase
>teh PRE to obtain that look, if it is a california
>beach campaign then I will also make him buy the
>COM that goes with that too!! :-)

I don't know for sure about anyone else but I never said that having a high
STR would make a character _look_ impressive merely that the high STR could
be used to add to his impressiveness. Solely based on violent actions being
able to add dice to a PRE attack. You are stating that a character cannot
look muscular without looking impressive. That is your opinion not mine.

>> Without the PRE to back it up the visible muscles simply won't be
>> impressive. The use of those muscles, on the other hand, CAN add to the
>
>Without the PRE to back it up he will not be able
>to use that strength to intimidate people, he'll
>still look impressive.


That's funny. It seems you are saying that a character can look impressive
but not be impressive. Which in a way agrees with me but not with your
other statements from above.

>> dice of a presence attack. This means to me that high STR can, not will
but
>> can, make a character more impressive. Just like an EB or KA or any
other
>> possibly violent power can. Not all of the time, but definitely in a
>> situation where the character is trying to be impressive. If you don't
>> believe this I must ask you if, and if you do, then why do you allow
players
>> to add dice to their PRE attacks through violent actions?
>
>My last post does seem to say that doesn't it!! I
>didn't mean it to. I will allow strength to add to
>presence attacks and so the use of STR can make
>you more impressive. It is this particular case of
>realistic campaigns where people want to have
>bulging muscles because they buy high STR. Well
>the campaign rules may tell you that if you have
>high STR then this must be reflected in your
>musculature, which is a fancy way of telling you
>that you had better buy some PRE if you want the
>high STR.
>
>
>All in my humble opinion of course. :-)

In my humble opinion, the buying or not buying of PRE is the player's
option. If he doesn't buy high PRE then he doesn't get a high PRE. That
still doesn't mean that he cannot add dice to his PRE attacks by doing
violent actions with his high STR to get a better effect that someone else
who has the same low PRE but no powers to do those extremely violent actions
with.

I think most of us agree with each other and are arguing over nit picky
little differences. Maybe we should all remember that beauty is in the eye
of the beholder. PRE and COM are probably two of the most nebulous
characteristics. I personally know one or two people that most people find
impressive and charismatic. I don't find either one of them that way.
There are a few people who find me incredibly impressive. I think of myself
as kind of average. More intelligent than average but with plenty of faults
to average me back out. I have heard women talking about men such as Brad
Pitt and will disagree severely over his COM. Some start salivating at the
mention of his name and others think he looks like a punkish wimp. I have
even talked to heterosexual males who think that Pamela Anderson is ugly.

It is hard for us to discuss these characteristics very well because we all
have different opinions of what makes a person have a high PRE.

Sorry for the length of this missive.

Alan


Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:21:55 -0600
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>From David Fair:

>On 2/1/98 6:55 PM Remnant Said:
>
>>
>>STR can and does modify the impressiveness of a character. PRE may be the
>>base of impressiveness but how can you claim that with equal PRE a
character
>>with high STR will only be as impressive as one without high STR and
nothing
>>to take its place?
>
>That would depend on why the second character bought a high PRE. Is he a
>powerful mafiaosa, unable to be intimidated? That calls for a high PRE.
>Does he have powerful political ties? High PRE.


I don't really see your point here I said "characters with equal PRE." I
never said anything about high or low PRE.

>An infomercial host with a well-oiled sales pitch can be far more
>impressive to the potential customer than the physique laden guinea pig
>who runs on the treadmill while Slick does the talking.


Again if both have the same PRE (which was my original premise) then they
will both be equally impressive until the one with the huge muscles breaks
something large in a violent manner adding to the dice he gets to use in a
PRE attack. IMHO, more dice results in more impressive.

Alan

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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:34:25 -0600
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David Fair wrote:

>On 1/31/98 1:43 PM Tim R. Gilberg (trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu) Said:
>
>> I'm rambling, but the point is that STR, DEX, BOD, CON, whatever
>>do carry some associated visual characteristics, in a realistic campaign.
>>This does not mean that a high STR character is more impressive or better
>>looking. It does mean that someone can tell he's strong.
>
>Sure, the High STR Character may look strong, but may not look
>impressivly strong. IOW, his 20 STR may just look like a 14 STR. People
>can tell that he is strong but not how strong he is.
>
>Have you ever watched powerlifting? These guys are not in the greatest
>physical shape; many are overweight, most are big, but not all that
>impressive looking when not lifting something. Sure thay look strong, but
>do they look THAT strong? Not usually. (Say 20 STR, 12 PRE & 12 COM)
>
>On the other hand, body builders who don't have a prayer of lifting what
>the powerlifters do, LOOK far stronger than the powerlifter! This is a
>case of 13 STR, 20 PRE & 18 COM.
>
>Of course, all this is simply the NORMAL case; theree are exceptions and
>in role-playing you can do whatever you like. I just don't thinks anyone
>with a high STR should try to use it like PRE, without paying for the PRE
>as well.


Good examples, but have you ever seen one of those power lifters up close
for real instead of just on TV. They look large but that largeness doesn't
move like flab. It appears to be rather solid. Based on everything except
your last paragraph it sounds like you agree with both Tim and me. The last
paragraph sounds like you are trying to argue, but since I have never said
that STR should be used like PRE any more or less than is allowed by the
chart on PRE attacks in the BBB. If we are disagreeing, then you must not
think it is right to allow character to add dice to their PRE attacks based
on violent actions.

Alan

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "Matt Korth" <korthmat@cps.msu.edu>
Organization: United Appeal for the Dead
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 23:35:44 -0400
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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> > What I like best about HeroMaker, however, is the fact that I
> > don't lose characters anymore. I'm bad at holding on to paper, but I can
> > always reprint a character sheet.
>
> Yeah, after losing over 200 characters and 8 years of notes in a
> monsoon in
> 1993, I can say this is a major plus. :)
> Also, I can't even read the handwriting of some of my players, myself
> among
> them (bad
> went you can't read your own handwriting half the time.). :)

Actually, it's not so much not being able to read one's own handwriting,
it's all the notes that get scribbled in the margins, across the top, in
between the lists of powers and disads...


--
korthmat@cps.msu.edu http://www.cps.msu.edu/~korthmat
*** People who send me UBE/UCE will be crucified. ***
"Believe me, Mike, I calculated the odds of this succeeding
versus the odds that I was doing something incredibly stupid...
and I went ahead anyway." --Crow, _MST3K: The Movie_

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 13:44:10 +1000
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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>Something that may help, since the rules are being revisited anyway, may
>be to include archetype templates (a tamplate would be much more
>complete than a package deal) for the standard superhero archetypes.
>Basically, prespend about 200 points (leave the new player 50 points to
>"custumize" the character) towards building a Brick, Energy Blaster,
>Martial Artist, etc.. (hmmm.... I may go ahead and do this myself to
>use in my games....). While it may go against the "classless system"
>concept, I think it would make things easier for neophites.
>

argh! boo! hisss! *lol*

Seriously, this kinda works, AND it's good for getting characters along a a particular setting's style(like special moves and personalising skills
for a bunch of ninja), but your better off just keeping it 'open
slather', or at least that works if your patient. People *will* get the
hang of it quickly, especially if you handle the numbers stuff at first.
The idea is to
show them that all the wierd lateral thinking and points-jargon does
actually go somewhere- instead of it just being an overly complex way to
do the 'usual' stuff.

>Next problem - there is the the rule books themselves. While easy for
>an experienced player to use as reference, somehow they miss the mark
>for showing a new player how to play. I'm not really sure what's
>missing, more examples might help (but I really don't think that's all
>of it); but back in ths dark ages when I first started playing
>Champions, reading the rules didn't give me anywhere near a feel for the
>game that my first session playing did.
>
>
>-=>John Desmarais


Most rpg's depend on their players to promote them. The problem is
that he hero system has great big gaps in it's population all over the place-
So a good 'first time' set of rules in required. I think 'spot examples' may
end up being over-used at this point, another idea might be to do up three or
four npc's in the book, and then 'dissect' them each on the facing page or
colum. That way the whole process can be better described and people can
get a feel for the different stages nivolved. I realise that C4 had something
like this but frankly the examples were short and mostly mechanics-oriented.
For instance i'd like to see a passage like this:

"BoB wants shadowdancer to have a robe of living darkness which can confuse his foes, but he decides at this stage just to have that as a partial special effect of his prescence of 20."

:->~




Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 13:48:58 +1000
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Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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>
>Very good point ! I subscribe to the list mainly for plot ideas, character ideas, and the like. Stuff that should be system transparent. However, as Brian
>points out, most of the discussion is rules/mechanics-oriented.
>
>Curt Hicks
>

Well i've been quiet recently for kinda the same reason- but i'd emphasise
'character ideas' about six times. Hero gives the option for really well-made
characters, especially if you make the *powers* fit the *character*, and not the
other way round- unfortunatly this flies in the face of the 'my way is the right
way/it says so in the rules' type of argument.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 23:05:06 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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>JaRP> That doesn't change the fact that it kinda blows your argument out of
>JaRP> the water...you _can_ have 'defensive' actions with 'agressive'
>JaRP> componants, in 4th Edition HERO.
>
>Yes, and they are specifically mentioned in the BBB, those two powers being
>Reflection and Dispell. *ONLY* those two powers have specific exceptions
>within the system, no other powers, no other maneuvers, nothing in Ninja
>Hero or The Ultimate Martial Artist.
>
>If it does not have a specific exception then it is *NOT* the rule, no
>matter how much you wish it so.

Get real, Rat, we're operating in a grey area and we should both know it.
Missile Reflection is a quite agressive power that is still classified as a
defensive power - you can even Abort to it. The only thing that a Block with
an agressive componant loses is Abort, and you can't even prove that this
removes the 'go first' componant from it, nor can you prove that it makes
the Block no longer a 'defensive' maneuver. Neither case is spelled out in
black and white in BBB, TUMA or NH, no matter how much you insist to the
contrary.

Missile Reflection provides not an _exception_, but a _precedent_. (there's
a reason it's called rules _lawyering_ after all!) Primarily defensive
powers with an offensive componant remain defensive powers. Heck, primarily
offensive powers (Dispel) with a defensive componant become defensive when
used defensively. Movement powers become defensive powers when used
defensively (Dive for Cover). Why does the extention of logic that a
defensive martial arts maneuver with an offensive componant stays defensive
offend you so? The Defensive Throw's primary function is _still_ to Block -
a defensive action. That it loses Abort is specifically spelled out, but
that's it, and the exact effect of not being abort-able is NOT spelled out -
so we must assume that Block still functions like a Block, except that you
can't use it without an available action (held or in your own phase). The
rules do not state otherwise. And, in your own words:

If it does not have a specific exception then it is *NOT* the rule, no
matter how much you wish it so.

Block without abort does not come with a specific exception that suddenly
stops it from working as a defensive maneuver (esp. in cases of held
actions). Nor is it explicitly forbidden from functioning like a Block -
i.e. 'going first' in a phase to intercept the attack. The only thing it is
explicitly forbidden from doing is being Aborted to - and all Abort
'explicitly' means is that you can act in a defensive manner in a Segment
_before_ your Phase comes around.

You've failed to convince a bunch of other HERO die-hard rules hagglers that
it violates either the spirit or letter of HERO rules, and you sure haven't
managed to convince me that it's abusive.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And go on to rule this world from beyond the grave."
"Indeed!"
"That, or check into a mental hospital; whatever comes first."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "potroast@theoven" <darkwraith@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Villain Help:Disco Fever
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 22:06:10 -0600
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> Ok, I know this is a strange request but I was wondering could I get help
> with a concept. As you may have guessed the villain is named "Disco
Fever".
> Basically an alien lifeform, based on pure energy that became enamored
with
> Earth...at least the United States durning the 70's. After years of
> experimentation it finally managed to assume a corporeal form and visit
its
> paradise... only to find it horribly changed. It wants to set things
"right"
> and has the powers to do it. I just need help with some of those powers.
:)
>
> I had thought of a change enviorment (70's decor and imagery, sound
track,
> etc) but beyond that I am a little stuck. Any suggestions?

How 'bout cosmetic transformation, i.e. bellbottoms, platform shoes, and
lots of polyester. Mind-control; nothing is worse then trying to do a 5d6
presence attack and breaking into Saturday Night Fever. Also Flashes;
mirror ball, NND; gas attacks (wippits 'nough said) Summon; lounge
lizards (shiver).

does this help?
>
> I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
> But it sure feels good!
> Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 22:21:20 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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> Also, I can't even read the handwriting of some of my players, myself among
> them (bad
> went you can't read your own handwriting half the time.). :)


Oh, I can't read my own more than half of the time . . . and none
of my players can read my writing. Or, if they can, it's at a no better
than 8- roll.



-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 22:25:57 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: [Re: TUMA Maneuvers]
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> F> Since in real life aggressive activity is classified as "defensive" on a
> F> regular basis, I assume you must be talking about the game. Fine. Show
> F> me where, in the game, it states that defensive maneuvers cannot be
> F> offensive in any way,
>
> Pardon me for being a smartass about this one, but the BBB does not need to
> define "offensive" and "defensive". Anyone with *any* comprehension of
> English will find the two to have diametrically opposed meanings without
> the necessity of reprinting half of Webster's New World Dictionary.


Ah, so, then it is impossible for offensive maneuvers to be
defensive in any way, right? Therefore, anything with Block, Dodge,
Abort, or anything else that can ever be used defensively must of course
be defensive and therefore hold all such advantages.

Just the other side of your coin, Rat. Give it up, as you've
not said a single intelligent thing for the past couple of days on this
issue. Your points make the argument for either side, you just ignore
half of it.

Our argument breaks down to comparing two maneuvers. One has
Strike+Throw, the other has Block+Throw. The difference, mechanics-wise,
is one does damage while throwing and one has the ability to stop incoming
attacks. That's it. It is obvious that the Throw element is unimportant
to deciding offensive vs defensive. What matters is the underlying base
element.

You've chosen to ignore this thread of the debate. The only
reason I can see for this is because you have no way to dispute the fact
that this is the only logical way to make any comparison.



-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 22:26:54 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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> >> It is a legacy of the second edition of the game.
>
> TRG> And a Throw that was considered defensive, could be aborted to,
> TRG> and did damage was a legacy of the third edition of the game.
>
> TRG> What's your point?
>
> Simply that certain aspects of the system that came down from earlier
> editions were not changed to fit into the fourth edition mold.


So, what? We're to take your word about which is which and assume
that anything you say is "legacy" is inferior to the Word of Rat?



-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 23:42:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Coming Soon!
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For everyone who'd rather look at something else than arguemnts over
Defensive Throws, I promise to try and have *some* of the cast of _Big
Trouble in Litle China_ posted within 7 to 10 days. Really. I just have
to get off my butt and do it...

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 22:45:49 -0600
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>What are the "horrors of Hero"? What parts of this game are often too
>complex or "scary" for new players? What needs to be simplified?
>
>Thanks in advance for you honest advice.
>
>Jim


1) Takes to long to build a complete character sheet.

2) Too many different types of defenses.

3) Too many different type of attacks, with different ways to apply the
damage.

4) Combat is monstrous to run if characters have lots of abilities. Compare
to AD&D at low level. Fighter wants to hit monster. Fighter roll one die
tell DM number on top. DM tell Fighter if hit or not. If hit then Fighter
roll one die tell DM number on top. Fighter turn over. We have a player in
our game who has been playing for over ten years and still can't decide what
he wants his character to do in combat. He has too many options too few
points in EGO.

Hero Lite should keep all the fundamental basics of Hero. OCVs, DCVs, Speed
chart at a reduced size, most of the characteristics, and having to buy
abilities with points. Leave out skills, talents, perks, CON, PRE, COM,
most powers (leave in just the standard fare) EB w/a Ranged and No Ranged
Option, Armor, Flight, Running, and Swimming.

I don't think this would be a fun game for me, but I'm the kind of person
who likes Hero the way it is. I'm not sure whether it would be interesting
enough for fledgling players or not. Play testing it with new people would
be the only way to be sure.

Alan

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: ErolB1@aol.com
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 23:57:43 EST
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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In a message dated 98-02-02 02:06:46 EST, champion@cyberhighway.net writes:

> I want to hear, as specifically as you care to get, what makes Hero less
> attractive -- assuming that the genre is attractive, and that the "feel" of
> the system (e.g. generally cinematic) is good -- and what scares them away?
>
> I think two words sum it up: Math and Complexity

I wouldn't say "Math and Complexity" per se so much as the fact that the math
and complexity are front-loaded: One has to deal with a bunch of math all at
once at the beginning, when creating a character.

But worse than this, IMO, it the reputation that HERO has: "HERO? Oh, you mean
*Champions* But that's only good for superheroes."

Something that contributes to both these problems is the coarse-grained nature
of the system. It's full of "breakpoints" which add complexity to the system
and which make it hard to properly deplict non-superheroic characters. I
myself would not try to use HERO for non-superheroes were it not for the
"percent Hero" rules I came up with to eliminate the breakpoints wrt skill,
characteristic, and attack rolls. (To toot my own horn, Vox has webbed them
for me on his site: http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html Or I could post
them here if people want to see them.)

>I am considering submitting a proposal to Gold Rush Games and/or Hero Plus
>that will offer rules variations that simplify Hero without changing any of
>the core mechanics, so that GMs have simpler rules to use at a convention,
>or when introducing new players to the game. And then they can graduate
>those players to the full rules system without the players having to
>"unlearn" any of the first rules they learned (they would have to do this
>with Fuzion, for example).

I don't think it can be done. Hero Games made a stab at it and, somehow,
Fuzion is what came of it.

>But I don't want to miss anything important. Hence this query to the
>finest Hero minds on the net:

>What are the "horrors of Hero"? What parts of this game are often too
>complex or "scary" for new players? What needs to be simplified?

I think what's needed isn't so much "simplification" so much as (a) a way to
make the system finer grained (b) a greater emphasis on and more support for
non-superheroic genres, and (c) lots of worked out examples of powers, spells,
weapons, and gadgets

An example of the last might be a "Space Stuff" book full of gadgets and
whatnot for a space opera-style Hero game. Each item would list the basic game
mechanic stats of the item (Active Cost, Real Cost, X-dice-of-Power-Y), a
paragraph or three describing the special effect (and maybe also a prose
description of the advantages and limitations), and finally a paragraph
(probably in smaller print) giving the exact game-mechanical details of how
the whatzit was built.

Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow

PS I know of at least one person who dislikes Hero because of the "generic"
nature of the powers: His view is that different abilities need different
mechanics in order to give them appropriate different "feels" - that a magical
bolt of lightning and a shot from a .45 pistol should have a greater
mechanical difference than given by different "special effects" or even
different advantages and limitations. But this is a basic philosophical
difference, and I don't think that Hero can be changed enough to satisfy
players of this sort.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: [Re: TUMA Maneuvers]
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 23:27:46 -0600
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>Pardon me for being a smartass about this one, but the BBB does not need to
>define "offensive" and "defensive". Anyone with *any* comprehension of
>English will find the two to have diametrically opposed meanings without
>the necessity of reprinting half of Webster's New World Dictionary.


Pardon ME for being a smartass but in English there is very little
difference between "offensive" and "defensive" (or should I have used "OR"
instead of "AND" for you to understand me) concerning how all of you are
using it. Like yourself in the above statement. I think you are being
offensive but you may be trying to defend yourself against either real or
perceived attacks making you be defensive. In combat, what usually
determines whether you are being defensive or offensive is who attacked
first.

My question is that if in your opinion a combat maneuver is not defensive if
it contains an offensive portion, just what is that combat maneuver? The
reason I ask is because logically it follows that if a maneuver can't be
defensive because it contains an offensive portion, then it can't be
offensive because it contains a defensive portion.

So, just what is a Defensive Throw? You gonna make up a new class of combat
maneuvers called "Neutral?" Other maneuvers in this class being:

Standing Still: +0 OCV +0 DCV, Target does nothing

Wave Half-Heartedly: -1 OCV -1 DCV, If successful Target Waves back.

Shoulders Shrug: +1 OCV +1 DCV, makes target wonder.

Noncommittal Nod: -1 OCV -1 DCV, target unsure of your position.

Honestly, I don't know which cracks me up more myself or ???

Alan


Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 02:09:37 EST
Subject: Re: Coming Soon!
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<< I promise to try and have *some* of the cast of _Big Trouble in Litle
China_ posted within 7 to 10 days. >>

Yes! Looking forward to those. :)

Gosh, I'd love to do a BTILC supplement. Hmmm....

Mark @ GRG
"Kill him, Thunder, for me!"

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:02:03 +0000
From: Stephen McGinness <smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk>
Organization: Camborne School of Mines
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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Desmarais, John wrote:
> Something that may help, since the rules are being revisited anyway, may
> be to include archetype templates (a tamplate would be much more
> complete than a package deal) for the standard superhero archetypes.
> Basically, prespend about 200 points (leave the new player 50 points to
> "custumize" the character) towards building a Brick, Energy Blaster,
> Martial Artist, etc.. (hmmm.... I may go ahead and do this myself to
> use in my games....). While it may go against the "classless system"
> concept, I think it would make things easier for neophites.

Well John, talk is cheap!! :-) Otherwise most of
us wouldn't be here!!

Do you want to have a go at presenting us with
some archetypes??

I would love to have some. I use real ten line
skeleton characters to test my PCs against to see
if they are campaign friendly but it might be nice
to have some archetypes to use instead.....

I don't think they would be hugely useful to
anyone on the list except as a quick way of
providing new players with a character, I think
that we are all agreed that the best way is to
discuss what they want, design it yourself and
then change the things that don't seem to work
over the first few scenarios....

They could be hugely useful for people just
beginning the game to get a handle on how a
character is put together. I remember (way way
back) when I first got Champions and my only RPG
experience had been AD&D. It took me three years
before I came into the light of day with something
that I wanted my friends to play!! I have some of
those characters that were designed that day and
they are awful!! :-) It's nice to see the lessons
that we've learned, it would have been easier to
use some archetypal packages though!!


So how about it John?? Are you man enough?? Anyone
else?? Don't look at me!

> -=>John Desmarais


Stephen

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 04:50:24 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: mlnunn@blue.net
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Buffy The Vampire Slayer
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For each generation there is only one Slayer...

One is born for every generation, these girls are born with the innate
ability to detect the forces of evil and destroy them. Each of these girls
also has a Watcher. A guardian / teacher that aids them in their quest. The
current Slayer is currently Buffy Summers of Sunnydale, California (also
known as the Hellmouth). Her Watcher is Rupert Giles.

Here is my take on Buffy and some of her allies...

BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER

25 STR 15
18 DEX 24
17 CON 14
14 BODY 8
18 INT 8
20 EGO 20
15 PRE 5
20 COM 5
8 PD 3
3 ED 0
4 SPD 12
8 REC 0
34 END 0
40 STUN 4
Characteristics Cost: 118

15 11- Danger Sense, The forces of evil, immediate vicinity
3 Ambidexterity
3 Acrobatics 13-
16 2 Levels,all combat
4 Fast Strike
4 Martial Block
4 Killing Strike
3 Martial Throw
5 Offensive Strike
4 Martial Strike
1 Weapon Groups,Swords/Blades,Karate Weapons
3 Seduction 12-
3 Stealth 13-
2 PS: Cosmetology 11-
3 WF,Crossbows,Common Melee
2 PS: Dancing 11-
3 Paramedic 13-
5 5 Presense Defense

Powers Cost: 83
Total Cost: 201

Base Points: 100
15 Dependent NPC,"Mother",normal,appear 11-
20 Dependent NPC,"All of her friends",normal,appear 14-
8 Watched,"Rupert Giles",less powerful,harsh,appear 14-
25 Hunted,"Vampires of Hellmouth",as powerful,nci,harsh,appear 14-
15 Psychological Limitation,"Driven to be the Slayer",common, strong
10 Reputation,"Trouble Making Teen/The Slayer",occur 11-
5 Minor 17 years old

Disadvantages Total: 98 Experience Spent: 3 Total Points: 201

While it does not appear on her sheet as such Buffy can kill a Vampire with
a well placed kick.
How isn't known for sure, but Vampires seem to have a weakness toward her.

Buffy The Vampire Slayer is currently broadcast on Tuesday night at 7 PM
eastern time on the Warner Brothers Network (WGN)

Buffy the Vampire Slayer is created by Joss Whedon and belongs, in various
degrees to MutantEnemy, Kuzui / Sandollar Productions, and 20th Century Fox.
No copyright infringement is intended.

Information for these conversions was drawn from Lycaeon's Scrollcase and his
Bureau 13: Stalking the Night Fantastic site.




Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist our seldom updated web site...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm

"You have never lived until you have almost died.
And for those who fight for it,
life has a flavor the protected never know"
- anonymous

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 04:50:26 -0600 (CST)
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From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: More Buffy (Rupert and Willow)
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Rupert Giles

12 STR 2
13 DEX 9
12 CON 4
11 BODY 2
23 INT 13
12 EGO 4
10 PRE 0
10 COM 0
5 PD 3
4 ED 2
3 SPD 7
4 REC 0
24 END 0
23 STUN 0
Characteristics Cost: 46

3 PS: Paranormal Psychology 14-,(INT based)
5 PS: Librarian 14-
3 Linguist
2 Lang: Latin,fluent conversation,literacy
2 Lang: Greek,fluent conversation,literacy
2 Lang: Sumerian,fluent conversation,literacy
2 Lang: French,fluent conversation,literacy

Fencing
5 Takeaway
4 Weapon Bind
4 Fast Strike
4 Martial Block

7 Weaponsmith 13-,class of weapon: Crossbows 
5 WF,Crossbows,Common Melee,Small Arms
3 Scholar
2 KS: Archaeology 14-,(INT based)
1 KS: Anthropology 11-
1 KS: Astrology 11-
2 KS: Art History 14-,(INT based)
1 KS: Geography 11-
3 KS: History 15-,(INT based)
2 KS: Linguistics 14-,(INT based)
2 KS: Religion (Modern & Ancient) 14-,(INT based)
2 KS: Magic, real and Historical 14-,(INT based)
2 KS: Supernatural 14-,(INT based)
2 KS: Spirits & the Undead 14-,(INT based)

Powers Cost: 71
Total Cost: 117

Base Points: 50
20 Hunted,"Vampires of Hellmouth",more powerful,harsh,appear 11-
15 Psychological Limitation,"Desire to understand the undead",common,strong
5 Unluck,1D6
13 "Buffy's watcher", Less powerful,harsh,appear 14-
15 Psychological Limitation,"Driven to protect/watch Buffy", common,strong

Disadvantages Total: 68
Experience Spent: 0
Total Points: 118

Willow Rosenberg

10 STR 0
13 DEX 9
10 CON 0
10 BODY 0
21 INT 11
13 EGO 6
10 PRE 0
12 COM 1
4 PD 2
3 ED 1
3 SPD 7
4 REC 0
20 END 0
20 STUN 0
Characteristics Cost: 37

5 Computer Programming 14-
3 Cryptography 13-
3 Systems Operation 13-
3 Security Systems 13-
2 SC: Data Manipulation 11-
3 SC: Computer Research 13-,(INT based)
3 KS: Advanced mathmatics 13-,(INT based)
2 PS: Musician 11-

Powers Cost: 24
Total Cost: 61

Base Points: 50
5 Unluck,1D6
8 Watched,"Vampires of Hellmouth",more powerful,harsh,appear 8-

Disadvantages Total: 13
Experience Spent: 0
Total Points: 63

There are three others generally associated with Buffy. Alexander
"Xander" Harris Cordelia Chase and Angel. Xander and Cordelia are for the
most part just normal High School Kids. Allthough Xander has begun to show
signs of being more.

Angel is a Vampire, and formerly Buffy's "Boy friend" recent events have
changed that making him her worst enemy to date.

Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist our seldom updated web site...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm

"You have never lived until you have almost died.
And for those who fight for it,
life has a flavor the protected never know"
- anonymous

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 06:39:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Hero System Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Coming Soon!
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On Tue, 3 Feb 1998 GoldRushG@aol.com wrote:

> << I promise to try and have *some* of the cast of _Big Trouble in Litle
> China_ posted within 7 to 10 days. >>
>
> Yes! Looking forward to those. :)

Oh, and here is the proposed cast list:

BTILC - Introduction (history of the universe, sites of interest, major
players, magic)

David Lo Pan
Thunder
Rain
Lightining
Guardian
Ogre
Wing Cong

Egg Shen
Jack Burton
Wang Chi
Chang Sings

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Kane476323@aol.com
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 06:39:25 EST
Subject: DOC'S D&D/V&V AUCTION
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From: Alurmic@aol.com
Return-path: <Alurmic@aol.com>
To: Kane476323@aol.com
Cc: Alurmic@aol.com
Subject: stuff
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 06:26:28 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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The following are the rules of the auction on the listed items.
1. Buyer pays all shipping. After the auction closes out I will contact the
high bidder
and arrange for shipping as they wish.
2. In the event of tie bids the first bidder will be the high bidder for the
item.
3. Updates will be posted every couple of days. The high bidder will be listed
for
each item.
4. Bids will be taken till midnite on the 20th of february.
5. Any questions on any listed item contact me via email for details
6. All checks must clear before shipping, money orders ship next day.
thanks and good luck, here are the items
TSR
1992 TSR TRADING CARD SET- complete boxed set numbering 750 cards. box has
some wear on the outside. cards have only been out of the box once to verify
count. cards are art from forgotten realms, greyhawk, spelljammer, dragonlance
ravenloft and dark sun. much of the art was book and module covers.
HIGH BID- 3.00 BIDDER- zarbrek
X4 MASTER OF THE DESERT NOMADS- adventure for levels 6-9. part one of the
desert nomads set.very good condition, complete never used
HIGH BID- 1.00 BIDDER- zarbrek
X5 TEMPLE OF DEATH- adventure for levels 6-10. part two of the desert nomads
set. very good condition, complete never used.
HIGH BID- 1.00 BIDDER- zarbrek
I4 OASIS OF THE WHITE PLAIN- adventure for levels 6-8. second in the desert of
desolation set. excellant condition, complete never used.
HIGH BID- 1.00 BIDDER- zarbrek
I5 LOST TOMB OF MARTEK- adventure for levels 7-9. third ands last in the
desert of desolation set. excellant condition, complete never used
HIGH BID- 1.00 BIDDER- zarbrek
I11 NEEDLE- adventure for levels 8-10. excellant condition, complete never
used
HIGH BID- 1.00 BIDDER- zarbrek
S3 EXPEDITION TO BARRIER PEAK- adventure for levels 8-12. fantasy characters
explore a crashed space ship. very good condition, complete used once.
HIGH BID- 1.00 BIDDER- zarbrek
CM2 DEATH'S RIDE- adventuire for levels 15-20. excellant condition, complete
never used
HIGH BID- 1.00 BIDDER- zarbrek
X1 ISLE OF DREAD- adventure for levels 3-7. very good condition, complete
never used
HIGH BID- 1.00 BIDDER- zarbrek
SET OF THREE BASIC MODULES B2,B3,B4- adventures for levels 1-3. basic D&D
rules. all are complete, average very good condition
HIGH BID- 1.00 BIDDER- zarbrek
C2 GHOST TOWN OF INVERNESS- adventure for levels 5-7. excellant condition,
complete never used.
HIGH BID- 1.00 BIDDER- zarbrek
L1 SECERT OF BONE HILL- adventure for levels 2-4. very good condition,
complete never used.
HIGH BID- 1.00 BIDDER- zarbrek



VILLAINS AND VIGILANTES
SET OF THREE V+V SUPPLEMENTS- three of the villian listings books:most wanted,
opponents unlimited, super crooks and criminals. all three are in overall good
condition with opponents the worst. some of the cardboard pieces have been cut
out. excellant listing of ideas for any supers game. most of the art by
patrick zircher before he began working for marvel comics
HIGH BID- 4.00 BIDDER- crazy
FORCE ADVENTURE MODULE- excellant condition. adventure for heros against a
villan group. art by jeff dee
HIGH BID- 4.00 BIDDER- crazy
FROM THE DEEPS OF SPACE- excellant condition. adventure for 2-3 heros in apace
against alien races.
HIGH BID- 4.00 BIDDER- crazy
PRE-EMTIVE STRIKE- excellant condition. adventure for 3-4 heros to stop
nuclear war. art by sean knight. in the back is a conversion chart and rules
to go from V+V to champions. this is the only place i know of this is
published.
HIGH BID- 4.00 BIDDER- crazy
Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 12:46:10
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: TUMA Maneuvers]
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
>
> TRG> Right. It is a block, plain and simple. That is the underlying
> TRG> maneuver base. If the block works, the attack is stopped and the
> TRG> attacker goes to the ground, taking no damage and getting a breakfall
> TRG> (maybe acrobatics) roll to avoid falling. That's it.
>
> I'm not trying to be disagreeable here, but that is not quite all. First,
> because it is a Block basis, the "defender" will act before the now-fallen
> attacker if both have their next action phases in the same segment.
> Because the attacker is on the ground his CV is halved (and you don't think
> that this is aggressive? :).

I could argue that both are aggressive, and thus a Block is partially aggressive, that only the second is aggressive, and that neither are aggressive. In fact, since the person using the "Defensive Block" maneuver is using only as a direct response to a particular attack, using my dictionary, I could rule Block aggressive, Defensive Throw aggressive, or neither.

> Second, again because it is a Block basis, the defender may continue to
> block (and thus tumble) attackers until the start of his next action phase.

So I would assume. I would not object to a ruling that you could only continue to Block, but not Throw, so long as it was understood that that was a ruling, and that the rules are open to either interpretation.

Filksinger


____________________________________________________________________
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 07:26:20 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: More Buffy (Rupert and Willow)
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At 04:50 AM 2/3/98 -0600, Michael Nunn wrote up Buffy & company. I take no
issue with the write-up of the Buffbabe herself (personally, I'd have given
her slightly less INT, and perhaps a tad more REC, but the numbers I might
have used were very close) but there are a couple of points about the
supporting cast I wanted to object to.

It's possible that Rupert "Ripper" Giles has a 12 STR, but if so he does
nothing to indicate it. What is the extra 2 points based on? Willow for
*certain* cannot lift
220#, and her STR should definitely have been reduced to 8 or thereabouts.
I think she might also rate a Shyness or Socially Inept disadvantage.
Finally, we recently found that Xander has military "experience". For
Halloween, he dressed as "Sgt. Harris" and like the other Sunnyvale kids,
took on the mind and personality of his costume that night. A more recent
episode revealed that he retains much of the knowledge and skills
appropriate to that character, including a knowledge of such military
weaponry as the M-16 and the LAW (light anti-tank...well, you know).

Thanks for sharing the write-ups! Things like this are always a great help
in getting new players to understand the numbers, and I have four such
players coming up.

Damon




=====================
In order to live free and happy, you must sacrifice boredom. It is not
always an easy sacrifice. -- Richard Bach in ILLUSIONS

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:21:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Coming Soon!
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On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote:

> Oh, and here is the proposed cast list:
[snip]

No Gracie Law? Sure, she's not much of a combatant, but she has some
relevent Professional Skills, Area Knowledge, Contacts, at least a
familiarity with KS: Little China Culture, and DF: Green Eyes. A lot of
the feel of BTILC comes from the varying degrees of knowledge people have
- and Jack has the least.


Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:23:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Coming Soon!
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On Tue, 3 Feb 1998 GoldRushG@aol.com wrote:

> Gosh, I'd love to do a BTILC supplement. Hmmm....
>

It would certainly sell well to the people on this list; it's a big
favorite here.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Villain Help:Disco Fever
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 06:48:13 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> Ok, I know this is a strange request but I was wondering could I get help
> with a concept. As you may have guessed the villain is named "Disco Fever".
> Basically an alien lifeform, based on pure energy that became enamored with
> Earth...at least the United States durning the 70's. After years of
> experimentation it finally managed to assume a corporeal form and visit its
> paradise... only to find it horribly changed. It wants to set things "right"
> and has the powers to do it. I just need help with some of those powers. :)
>
> I had thought of a change enviorment (70's decor and imagery, sound track,
> etc) but beyond that I am a little stuck. Any suggestions?
>

This sounds like one of my Hero's: Disco

Basically he had a changed environment that put in sound and lights over an
area.
As long as that was up he could use various powers relating to
light, sound, dancing, and singing.

He also had a disct Feat. of his voice always sounding like a Disco DJ.

Now another idea is the 'virus' power to turn the whole world into Disco Freaks.

To do this one you get an area affect cummulative transform linked
to the change environment.
Anyone who comes into your area get hit with a transform that
passes the power on to them.
To make it worse you add an area affect mind control to make people
who come near you want to stay there long enough for the transform to work.
This mind control also passes to them when the transform is complete.

In time, this will spread through a whole city, then tommorow night,
The World! :)

I used this in a 1987 game to turn San Francisco into a fantasy world.
The players had to locate the source of the virus, a sleeping girl, and wake
her up.

Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 07:00:44 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Villain Help:Disco Fever
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At 07:07 PM 2/2/1998 -0800, Kim wrote:
>Ok, I know this is a strange request but I was wondering could I get help
>with a concept. As you may have guessed the villain is named "Disco Fever".
>Basically an alien lifeform, based on pure energy that became enamored with
>Earth...at least the United States durning the 70's. After years of
>experimentation it finally managed to assume a corporeal form and visit its
>paradise... only to find it horribly changed. It wants to set things "right"
>and has the powers to do it. I just need help with some of those powers. :)
>
>I had thought of a change enviorment (70's decor and imagery, sound track,
>etc) but beyond that I am a little stuck. Any suggestions?

Stuff I've been able to come up with:
A Martial Art based on Disco Moves.
A Flash, with Explosion (-1/3") in an OAF: Disco Ball.
Mind Control, Single Command ("Dance").
A small legion of followers known as the Boogie Knights.
And, if you can figure out the mechanics, an Area Effect ability that is
Linked to the Change Environment that uses Suppress and "Assist" (a "house
rule" additive version of Suppress; if you prefer, use the ability UBO) on
SPD and Lightning Reflexes to make everyone DEX 20 (for actions) and SPD 6,
along with several Skill Levels with coordinating attacks UBO AE (there's
nothing like good choreography).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm


Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Reply-To: "Tanja Nasset" <tanjan@u.washington.edu>
From: "Tanja Nasset" <tanjan@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 07:02:52 -0800
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On Monday, February 02, 1998 3:41 PM, Curt Hicks wrote:


>
>Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net> wrote:
>
>> I think two words sum it up: Math and Complexity
>>
>> I think that any time you need a calculator (or a computer program)
in
>> order to make a character, you are in a zone that *most* RPGers
don't want
>> to tread.
>
>You do NOT NEED a calculator, let alone a &&)(%^*&% spreadsheet to
make
>a character !!!! (I have never understood the appeal of Heromaker).


If you don't use them, expect math errors in characters. Unless, of
course, you are extra careful _and_ you do all the characters
yourself.

Filksinger



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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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Date: 03 Feb 1998 10:04:04 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

TRG> So, what? We're to take your word about which is which and assume
TRG> that anything you say is "legacy" is inferior to the Word of Rat?

I was asked to explain why Missile Reflection works the way it does. I
did. Deal with it.

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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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>>>>> "JaRP" == John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> writes:

>> If it does not have a specific exception then it is *NOT* the rule, no
>> matter how much you wish it so.

JaRP> Get real, Rat, we're operating in a grey area and we should both know
JaRP> it. Missile Reflection is a quite agressive power that is still
JaRP> classified as a defensive power - you can even Abort to it.

And the power *SPECIFICALLY* states that in its description. There is
nothing at all grey about it. It is an exception, not a precident.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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>>>>> "RH" == Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> writes:

JaRP> Missile Reflection. Explain that, please, Rat. You can even abort to it.

>> It is a legacy of the second edition of the game.

RH> What do you mean, its a legacy of the second edition? Could you
RH> PLEASE tell me what the hell that has to do with the origional
RH> question?

Dig up a copy of "Champions II", which has the original version of the
Missile Reflection power.

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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: TUMA Maneuvers]
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

TRG> Ah, so, then it is impossible for offensive maneuvers to be
TRG> defensive in any way, right?

It is impossible for defensive maneuvers to be offensive in any way. If
they are they not defensive.

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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 10:09:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Hero System Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Coming Soon!
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On Tue, 3 Feb 1998 GoldRushG@aol.com wrote:

> << I promise to try and have *some* of the cast of _Big Trouble in Litle
> China_ posted within 7 to 10 days. >>
>
> Yes! Looking forward to those. :)
>
> Gosh, I'd love to do a BTILC supplement. Hmmm....

Uh, Mark? Remember my proposal for Wuxia Hero? It's meant as a BTILC
sourcebook (well, more of a sourcebook for that type of action anyway).
The campaign suppliemnt I wanted to put in the back (Sons of the Phoneix)
was inspired directly by BTILC.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 10:09:58 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Coming Soon!
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On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Bill Svitavsky wrote:

> No Gracie Law? Sure, she's not much of a combatant, but she has some
> relevent Professional Skills, Area Knowledge, Contacts, at least a
> familiarity with KS: Little China Culture, and DF: Green Eyes. A lot of
> the feel of BTILC comes from the varying degrees of knowledge people have
> - and Jack has the least.

Alright, I'll see what I can do...

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 10:10:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Reply-To: Bill Svitavsky <bsvitavs@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Villain Help:Disco Fever
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On Mon, 2 Feb 1998, potroast@theoven wrote:
[snip]
> > I had thought of a change enviorment (70's decor and imagery, sound
> track,
> > etc) but beyond that I am a little stuck. Any suggestions?
>
> How 'bout cosmetic transformation, i.e. bellbottoms, platform shoes, and
> lots of polyester. Mind-control; nothing is worse then trying to do a 5d6
> presence attack and breaking into Saturday Night Fever. Also Flashes;
> mirror ball, NND; gas attacks (wippits 'nough said) Summon; lounge
> lizards (shiver).
>

Disco moves would make for a really amusing martial art; he should
probably have acrobatics as well. Seduction might be a relevent skill,
though it might be more amusing for the character to hit on women 70's
style with no Seduction skill. I could also see a gold chain Entangle.

Some powers won't have to directly tie in to the disco theme, since the
character is actually an energy being, but you might give them a bit of a
disco feel anyway. For example, if he has Life Support, he might comment
"Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh Staying Alive!" when it becomes evident.

If he brings any high tech alien equipment with him, I suggest he have it
modified to be compatible with Earth technology. Eight tracks, of course.


Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: How to make character design understandable in 5th ed. (was Re: The Horrors of Hero?)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 07:11:58 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> >Something that may help, since the rules are being revisited anyway, may
> >be to include archetype templates (a tamplate would be much more
> >complete than a package deal) for the standard superhero archetypes.
> >Basically, prespend about 200 points (leave the new player 50 points to
> >"custumize" the character) towards building a Brick, Energy Blaster,
> >Martial Artist, etc.. (hmmm.... I may go ahead and do this myself to
> >use in my games....). While it may go against the "classless system"
> >concept, I think it would make things easier for neophites.
> >
> Seriously, this kinda works, AND it's good for getting characters along a a particular setting's style(like special moves and personalising skills
> for a bunch of ninja), but your better off just keeping it 'open
>
I think this could work in the genre books. As long as it is
VERY CLEAR that they are always optional. I can see a new crowd of GM's trying
to shove the Brick Template down the throats of us old timers (actually, many
old timer GM's already do this, when they say Bricks must be slow, and MA's
must be fast, etc...)

> Most rpg's depend on their players to promote them. The problem is
> that he hero system has great big gaps in it's population all over the place-
> So a good 'first time' set of rules in required. I think 'spot examples' may
> end up being over-used at this point,

Use both spot, and show step by step the build of a complete character.

> another idea might be to do up three or
> four npc's in the book, and then 'dissect' them each on the facing page or
> colum. That way the whole process can be better described and people can
> get a feel for the different stages nivolved. I realise that C4 had something
> like this but frankly the examples were short and mostly mechanics-oriented.
> For instance i'd like to see a passage like this:
>
The first three editions of Champions had a power by power, stat by
stat creation of 'Crusader' in them. Much like Dai Blackthorn of GURPS.

I don't recall if that made it into the BBB. But I think it was a very
handy tool for showing 'how to do it'. Each and every item on Crusader's
sheet was went through. It ended up with what looked like a hand writing font
placed onto a character sheet with a picture of Crusader in the drawing
section.

Having that in both the 5bb (5th ed basic book) and 5gb (5th ed genre
books) would be a major help. The 5bb would have a generic genre vague
character, or a super (since super's use the most of the character creation
rules). And each 5gb would have a character fitting it's genre.
if the 5bb character was a super, then the Super genre book should
show a diferent KIND of super; after all, the more examples the better.


Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Buffy The Vampire Slayer
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>>>>> "MN" == Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> writes:

Admittedly, I am going by the movie, not the TV show, so if the latter does
things differently, deal. ;)

MN> BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER

MN> 25 STR 15
MN> 20 EGO 20
MN> 4 SPD 12

These are, I think, too high, to varying degrees. And considering that
Buffy exists in an Heroic-scale universe, that Strength cost is totally out
of line.

MN> 15 PRE 5

And that is too low. Buy it up.

MN> 15 11- Danger Sense, The forces of evil, immediate vicinity

Should be higher than a base roll.

MN> 4 Fast Strike
[etc.]

Use Tae Kwon Do as the style basis; that is the art Kristy Swanson learned
when shooting the movie.

MN> 5 5 Presense Defense

As previously stated, just buy up her Presence a bit.

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--
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 98 15:15:01
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Hero Templates
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On Tue, 3 Feb 1998 11:26:09 -0800 (PST), Brian Wong wrote:

>So;
>
> Do we want to sit down and start doing 'Templates'?
>
>If so, we'd need to break it down by the major genre's as well.
>
> A system to use might be where a combination of template,
>package deals, and about 50 points will result in a completed character.
>
> Package deals needed would be proffession and species.
>
>What else is needed?


Personally, when I mentioned the idea of templates, I was really only thinking in terms
of Champions (of the more or less four-color variety), where package deals aren't used
a whole lot.

-=>John Desmarais

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 15:19:34
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: TUMA Maneuvers]
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Tim Gilberg wrote:
>
>And note that a AE attack will not be blockable and,
> because the Defensive Throw has been declared, Dive for Cover is not an
> option.

Since you did not Abort to the Defensive Throw, you may Abort to a Dive for Cover on the next Segment.

Filksinger


____________________________________________________________________
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 07:24:03 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> At 04:52 PM 2/2/98 -0800, you wrote:
> >It will take some players a while to adjust. My power gamer failed to read
> the
> >entirity of the concept sections of my ground rules the first few
> attempts, but
> >after
> >quoting sections of it after each question the problem has cleared up.
>
>
> Would you be willing to post your Ground Rules somewhere for me to see? (or
> email them?)
>
All of my rules are on my website at:

http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

the key page with about 70% of the power level and house rules is:


http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/camprule.html

but you'll want the first link to get the index to the site.

Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 07:32:21 -0800
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net>
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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Curt Hicks wrote:

> Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net> wrote:
>
> > I think two words sum it up: Math and Complexity
> >
> > I think that any time you need a calculator (or a computer program) in
> > order to make a character, you are in a zone that *most* RPGers don't want
> > to tread.
>
> You do NOT NEED a calculator, let alone a &&)(%^*&% spreadsheet to make
> a character !!!! (I have never understood the appeal of Heromaker).

A calculator or a spreadsheet definately helps cut down the time. In my own experience, using a Lotus 123 template for all of my Hero characters has cut down
the time to generate a character for me considerably. I can now make multiple characters in the time I caould do a simgle one by pencil and paper. If anything,
the speadsheet approach has been much more of a benefit to me than anything else. The appeal is obvious on why such things are useful. The time they save.

Hero is a math intensivve game, especially in the character generation phase. The more complex a character is, the more math and time that is necessary to be
put into it. Personally, I have always hated "campaign mathematics". I would rather actually be playing the game than spending hour upon hour just doing math for
nothing.


> Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes:
>
> >
> > It's definatly repuation. But it's also approach.
> > For an example; look at the way we discuss the game in here and the newsgroup.
> > We don't talk about concepts, we talk numbers. We fight over trivial things
> > like weather linked math's this way or that. Rather than discussing plot
> > and characterization, we go off on 1/4 this times X dived by whatever gives
> > you that when applied to power Z.
> >
> > Now go into a forum for a WW game, half the posts are group fiction,
> > reviews of products, or 'cool genre ideas'.
> >
> > Now, it's this way in person to. Go to a con and listen to how people
> > talk about their favorite games.
> > Hero people don't talk about genre, roleplay, and creative fiction.
> > They talk numbers.
>
> Very good point ! I subscribe to the list mainly for plot ideas, character ideas, and the like. Stuff that should be system transparent. However, as Brian
> points out, most of the discussion is rules/mechanics-oriented.
>
> Curt Hicks

I complained about this when I first came to this list six years ago, and have complained about it off and on. But have been continually brushed aside or
shouted down by those more interested in playing the mechanics than playing the game itself.

There IS too much emphasis put on the mechanics here on this list. The mechanics are not the game, they are one part of the game. A single element. But the
others seem very often overlooked.
I have been here for 6 years. And the focus on the mechanics rather than the other componants of what makes the game have only become more dominant. The rules
lawyering and circular arguements over the same subjects, usually mechanics arguements, get old fast.

Back when I originally started getting this list, when I was on Red October, this list was a place for sharing ideas freely. It does not seem that way to me
anymore. That, in all honesty, is why I have paying less and less attention to this list. Deleteing almost every message I get from it on a daily basis. The
arguements over the mechanics never change. They are a constant. And they apparently aren't really going to change. So why bother continuing them?

Personally, I got sick of being being attacked verbally or shot down when I post a non-mechanics oriented post. And I got a similar reaction from any
mechanics related post I made. So I just stopped trying at all. Took some time off and cleared my head. Now I'm back with a vengeance. And best of all, my GM
burnout is a thing of the past.

This list needs to get back to its roots badly. And as far as I'm concerned, all the old circular game mechanics arguements can all go take a flying leap!
Add them to a FAQ, and let's get back to the true business at hand. Sharing real ideas.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 15:59:45
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer]
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "PR" == Prodipto Roy <proy@MICROSOFT.com> writes:
>
> PR> I was going to mention the same thing. 25 STR may not be unreasonable
> PR> for Buffy given her ability to smack vampires around and bend steel in
> PR> her bare hands.
>
> Martial arts, plain and simple.
>
To smack vampires, yes. Bending steel is another matter.

However, this applies more to the TV buffy than the movie one. Additionally, the vampires in Buffy are wimps.

Filksinger


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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 10:35:33 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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> > I'd put it only on the block roll. If it works, attacker is going
> > to the floor unless a breakfall roll is made. If it doesn't work, the
> > attack flies free and no throw can be made.
>
> Attempt the block. If you miss, then you didn't connect properly, and
> the opposition gets the chance to pummel you. All based on the one roll, did
> you block the attack?


Right. It is a block, plain and simple. That is the underlying
maneuver base. If the block works, the attack is stopped and the attacker
goes to the ground, taking no damage and getting a breakfall (maybe
acrobatics) roll to avoid falling. That's it.



-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 11:40:19 -0500 (EST)
From: THE MAD HARLEQUIN <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer
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Just something of note, on a recent episode of Buffy she bent the
barrel of a hunting rifle ala Superman style.

Didn't the "Ripper" also know how to play gituar and sing as well as
summon demons back when he was a young
fellow? At one point in the series,
he was 'Hunted' by a demon that his group of friends summoned.
...and is there any way to represent a library filled with Occult
knowledge and useful Grimores?



Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 10:40:33 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: [Re: TUMA Maneuvers]
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> TRG> Ah, so, then it is impossible for offensive maneuvers to be
> TRG> defensive in any way, right?
>
> It is impossible for defensive maneuvers to be offensive in any way. If
> they are they not defensive.


Ah, but wouldn't this suggest that offensive maneuvers cannot be
defensive in any way? Where is your side of the coin better than mine,
Rat? How are you contributing anything at all?


-Tim Gilberg

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Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 11:57:20 -0500 (EST)
From: THE MAD HARLEQUIN <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Ideas
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Hi,
I'm trying to come up with a few characters built on a 100 + 150
point base for a Film Noir campagin with a few occult elements thrown into
the mix. Many of them are Noir/Pulp based.
I'm encountering some difficulty find appropiate abilites, stuck
as to how I should limit the supernatural abilities of a player. For example,
I would think a character who was cursed to be a werewolf would be an
appropiate character concept. However, in the way I am envisioning the genre,
he would have absolutely no control over his transformations and it would be
more of a hinderance than a power.
If I allow this, I need to also figure out how to prevent the PC's
from finding out immediately. ('Wow, John, looks like a full moon tonight.'
"Woof." 'ArrrrgH!' <the shreading ensues>) Would a Limitation (such as an
aversion to transformation in front of friends) be appropiate in your opinion?
Also, there is an I
nvestigator who specializes in the occult who has
a Pulp-hero two gun style with a number of 'special' bullets (hollow points,
silver, wooden, etc). Would this be a Variable Advantage and/or Variable
Special Effects with a limitation 'Must change clip to alter Advantage/Effects'
and 'May only change Advantage/Effects selections between adventures'?

Any additional comments would be appreciated.

-Jason Sullivan

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Prodipto Roy <proy@MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: RE: Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:40:40 -0800
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I was going to mention the same thing. 25 STR may not be unreasonable for
Buffy given her ability to smack vampires around and bend steel in her bare
hands. As far as the library goes, give Giles a base, sell off the grounds
(he doesn't really use the school grounds as a base, just the library), and
give the base an occult skill of around 16-.

--Pro

> -----Original Message-----
>
> Just something of note, on a recent episode of Buffy she bent the
> barrel of a hunting rifle ala Superman style.
>
> Didn't the "Ripper" also know how to play gituar and sing as well as
> summon demons back when he was a young
> fellow? At one point in the series,
> he was 'Hunted' by a demon that his group of friends summoned.
> ...and is there any way to represent a library filled with Occult
> knowledge and useful Grimores?
>
>

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 98 12:48:13 -0500
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From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 2/2/98 10:34 PM Remnant (easleyap@mobis.com) Said:

>>Of course, all this is simply the NORMAL case; theree are exceptions and
>>in role-playing you can do whatever you like. I just don't thinks anyone
>>with a high STR should try to use it like PRE, without paying for the PRE
>>as well.

>The last
>paragraph sounds like you are trying to argue, but since I have never said
>that STR should be used like PRE any more or less than is allowed by the
>chart on PRE attacks in the BBB.

Some people here have seemed to say ythat you could.

>If we are disagreeing, then you must not
>think it is right to allow character to add dice to their PRE attacks based
>on violent actions.

Depends on the way you are using your STR and your Presence attack. Using
STR to help w/ a seduction roll is useless. Telling a crowd to calm down,
then bending a lightpost in two would actually reduce the dice of the
attack, since the action is contrary to the desired result.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 98 12:50:57 -0500
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From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 2/2/98 10:21 PM Remnant (easleyap@mobis.com) Said:

>
>Again if both have the same PRE (which was my original premise) then they
>will both be equally impressive until the one with the huge muscles breaks
>something large in a violent manner adding to the dice he gets to use in a
>PRE attack. IMHO, more dice results in more impressive.

No argument that violent actions add to prescence attacks, but that
doesn't mean the character in question is inherently more impressive,
just that he gets more dice because he does impressive things. It is a
subtle difference.

A high STR does not equal a High PRE. Someone said a while back that a
high STR would aid in getting the girls (paraphrased). Now, why on earth
would those violent actions make the women come runnin? Most women I know
carry pepper spray (or heavier armament) and look to get the hell outta
there when the violent actions start up.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: TUMA Maneuvers]
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

TRG> Ah, but wouldn't this suggest that offensive maneuvers cannot be
TRG> defensive in any way?

Hell! no. Consider the set "all combat maneuvers" (as a subset of "all
actions"). "Defensive combat maneuvers" is a subset of that (as an aside,
one may abort to use any maneuver in this set -- consistancy is a good
thing). "Offensive combat maneuvers" is another, nonintersecting subset.
"Offensive combat maneuvers with defensive aspects" is a subset of
"offensive maneuvers". There is no "defensive combat maneuvers with
offensive aspects" subset; this subset is really "offensive combat
maneuvers with defensive aspects". One may substitute "aggressive" for
"offensive".

Martial Block is in the "defensive combat maneuvers" set. The intent of
the maneuver is to negate a disadvantageous combat position, that is, being
hurt and going last. Remember, Block does not change the opponent's combat
order, nor that of anyone else, only the blocker's DEX order is changed,
and then only against his attacker.

Defensive Throw is in the "offensive combat maneuvers with defensive
aspects" set. Most of the defensive aspects of the Block base are there,
but the addition of the aggressive element "Throw" changes the intent of
the maneuver. The intent of this maneuver is to negate a disadvantageous
combat position by placing one's opponent at a disadvantage (if it were two
distinct maneuvers, a block with a following throw, this would not
necessarilly be the case). That makes the maneuver aggressive (or
offensive if you prefer). As such, it should follow the same rules as
other, similar maneuvers.

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--
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

TRG> Right. It is a block, plain and simple. That is the underlying
TRG> maneuver base. If the block works, the attack is stopped and the
TRG> attacker goes to the ground, taking no damage and getting a breakfall
TRG> (maybe acrobatics) roll to avoid falling. That's it.

I'm not trying to be disagreeable here, but that is not quite all. First,
because it is a Block basis, the "defender" will act before the now-fallen
attacker if both have their next action phases in the same segment.
Because the attacker is on the ground his CV is halved (and you don't think
that this is aggressive? :).

Second, again because it is a Block basis, the defender may continue to
block (and thus tumble) attackers until the start of his next action phase.

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--
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\ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:36:46 EST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Coming Soon!
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<< Uh, Mark? Remember my proposal for Wuxia Hero? It's meant as a BTILC
sourcebook (well, more of a sourcebook for that type of action anyway). The
campaign suppliemnt I wanted to put in the back (Sons of the Phoneix) was
inspired directly by BTILC.>>

Since you posted this to the list, I will reply to the list as well.

I do, indeed, remember your proposal for Quxia Hero. Remember me telling you
to watch for a contract?

As for Big Trouble in Little China, publishing a Wuxia Hero sourcebook is
great, but being able to slap the BTiLC trademark on the book, include write-
ups of the characters, etc., would be an even bigger draw. See where I'm going
with this?

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:46:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Hero System Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Coming Soon!
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On Tue, 3 Feb 1998 GoldRushG@aol.com wrote:

> << Uh, Mark? Remember my proposal for Wuxia Hero? It's meant as a BTILC
> sourcebook (well, more of a sourcebook for that type of action anyway). The
> campaign suppliemnt I wanted to put in the back (Sons of the Phoneix) was
> inspired directly by BTILC.>>
>
> Since you posted this to the list, I will reply to the list as well.
>
> I do, indeed, remember your proposal for Quxia Hero. Remember me telling you
> to watch for a contract?


Oh yeah...
> As for Big Trouble in Little China, publishing a Wuxia Hero sourcebook is
> great, but being able to slap the BTiLC trademark on the book, include write-
> ups of the characters, etc., would be an even bigger draw. See where I'm going
> with this?

Ohh... clear as day Captain Mark sir! I mean, like I was telling my
ex-wife, "Honey, I never write faster than I can see, and besides, it's
all in the reflexes!".

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:09:17 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
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> No argument that violent actions add to prescence attacks, but that
> doesn't mean the character in question is inherently more impressive,
> just that he gets more dice because he does impressive things. It is a
> subtle difference.

That's what I was arguing.

> A high STR does not equal a High PRE. Someone said a while back that a
> high STR would aid in getting the girls (paraphrased). Now, why on earth

No, I said that a high-STR character (it shows physically) may be
more attractive to some women (or men). It depends on the individual
preferences. It will actually be just as likely to turn some women (or
men) off.


-Tim Gilberg

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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"THE MAD HARLEQUIN\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 98 19:09:39
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Ideas
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On Tue, 03 Feb 1998 11:57:20 -0500 (EST), THE MAD HARLEQUIN wrote:

>Hi,
> I'm trying to come up with a few characters built on a 100 + 150
>point base for a Film Noir campagin with a few occult elements thrown into
>the mix. Many of them are Noir/Pulp based.
> I'm encountering some difficulty find appropiate abilites, stuck
>as to how I should limit the supernatural abilities of a player. For example,
>I would think a character who was cursed to be a werewolf would be an
>appropiate character concept. However, in the way I am envisioning the genre,
>he would have absolutely no control over his transformations and it would be
>more of a hinderance than a power.
> If I allow this, I need to also figure out how to prevent the PC's
>from finding out immediately. ('Wow, John, looks like a full moon tonight.'
>"Woof." 'ArrrrgH!' <the shreading ensues>) Would a Limitation (such as an
>aversion to transformation in front of friends) be appropiate in your opinion?

This is Accidental Change, but you could give him an Ego Roll to avoid
the change.


>Also, there is an Investigator who specializes in the occult who has
>a Pulp-hero two gun style with a number of 'special' bullets (hollow points,
>silver, wooden, etc). Would this be a Variable Advantage and/or Variable
>Special Effects with a limitation 'Must change clip to alter Advantage/Effects'
>and 'May only change Advantage/Effects selections between adventures'?

Sounds good! Just VSFX, though, as the target creature should have an
appropriate Vulnerability. This also allows for the intrepid
investigator to make a mistake <evil cackle>

qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Darien Phoenix Lynx\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 98 19:15:45
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Limitation/AP mods idea
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On Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:04:40 -0600 (CST), Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:

>On Fri, 30 Jan 1998, "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> "Darien Phoenix Lynx" wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:43:32 -0600 (CST), Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>>
>> >To help clarify, explain to me why a personal immunity EB has a longer
>> >range, costs more END and is more difficult to dispel than a regular
>> >EB--even though it's actively the same EB. Or half-end, or variable SFX,
>> >and so on. We're not talking about damage AT ALL, but these other effects
>> >of active points. Considering that you favor DC limits over AP limits, you
>> >shouldn't be concerned about changing active costs... it won't affect your
>> >campaign balance, but it will affect the range, END cost, and
>> >drain/dispelibility of some powers.
>>
>> Try looking at it from a Fantasy angle: an EB is a straight-forward
>> effect, but imagine an AD&D wizard with a Fireball spell. Now, if he
>> casts it in a restricted space, he's going to get blasted too. So he
>> adds in PI, making the spell *more complex*, and thus increasing the
>> APs. Likewise with VSFX, becaus e the wizard can change the EB from a
>> Cone of Cold to a Cone of Salt, the spell is more complex. Because the
>> spell is more complex, it takes a more powerful Dispel to counter.
>>
>> Does this help?


>Hmm... there's an example of where the personal immunity is in the active
>power. But with many special effects, the personal immunity has nothing to
>do with the active power. Like Cyclops, with his personal immunity to his
>energy blast... it's not that the blast is more powerful or more complex,
>but that his skin can metabolize it. In this case the personal immunity
>should not affect the active cost if the player doesn't wish it.

It is clearly advantageous for him to be immune, though.

Right, I see what you mean and my solution is very simple: just use a
Partial Limitation 'Does not count to Active Points when Power is
Suppressed, Drained, or Dispelled'. I'd give that a -1/2 Limitation.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: traveler owned process doing -bs
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:25:27 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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On Mon, 2 Feb 1998 ErolB1@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 98-02-02 02:06:46 EST, champion@cyberhighway.net writes:
>
> >What are the "horrors of Hero"? What parts of this game are often too
> >complex or "scary" for new players? What needs to be simplified?
>
> I think what's needed isn't so much "simplification" so much as (a) a way to
> make the system finer grained (b) a greater emphasis on and more support for
> non-superheroic genres, and (c) lots of worked out examples of powers, spells,
> weapons, and gadgets
>
> An example of the last might be a "Space Stuff" book full of gadgets and
> whatnot for a space opera-style Hero game. Each item would list the basic game
> mechanic stats of the item (Active Cost, Real Cost, X-dice-of-Power-Y), a
> paragraph or three describing the special effect (and maybe also a prose
> description of the advantages and limitations), and finally a paragraph
> (probably in smaller print) giving the exact game-mechanical details of how
> the whatzit was built.

And above all else, *stop publishing supplements that claim to be generic
but which focus primarily on superheroes!*

> PS I know of at least one person who dislikes Hero because of the "generic"
> nature of the powers: His view is that different abilities need different
> mechanics in order to give them appropriate different "feels" - that a magical
> bolt of lightning and a shot from a .45 pistol should have a greater
> mechanical difference than given by different "special effects" or even
> different advantages and limitations. But this is a basic philosophical
> difference, and I don't think that Hero can be changed enough to satisfy
> players of this sort.

Agreed...

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Hero Templates
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 11:26:09 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

So;

Do we want to sit down and start doing 'Templates'?

If so, we'd need to break it down by the major genre's as well.

A system to use might be where a combination of template,
package deals, and about 50 points will result in a completed character.

Package deals needed would be proffession and species.

What else is needed?

Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:42:22 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Limitation/AP mods idea
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, qts wrote:

> >Hmm... there's an example of where the personal immunity is in the active
> >power. But with many special effects, the personal immunity has nothing to
> >do with the active power. Like Cyclops, with his personal immunity to his
> >energy blast... it's not that the blast is more powerful or more complex,
> >but that his skin can metabolize it. In this case the personal immunity
> >should not affect the active cost if the player doesn't wish it.
>
> It is clearly advantageous for him to be immune, though.
>
> Right, I see what you mean and my solution is very simple: just use a
> Partial Limitation 'Does not count to Active Points when Power is
> Suppressed, Drained, or Dispelled'. I'd give that a -1/2 Limitation.
> qts

That's a good idea. But it doesn't take into account END cost or range. Do
you think it's an acceptable tradeoff to claim that the reduced END cost
balances the easier "adjustability" and reduced range?

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 98 15:18:47 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
cc: <champ-l@omg.org>
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On 2/3/98 2:09 PM Tim R. Gilberg (trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu) Said:

>
>> No argument that violent actions add to prescence attacks, but that
>> doesn't mean the character in question is inherently more impressive,
>> just that he gets more dice because he does impressive things. It is a
>> subtle difference.
>
> That's what I was arguing.
>
>> A high STR does not equal a High PRE. Someone said a while back that a
>> high STR would aid in getting the girls (paraphrased). Now, why on earth
>
> No, I said that a high-STR character (it shows physically) may be
>more attractive to some women (or men). It depends on the individual
>preferences. It will actually be just as likely to turn some women (or
>men) off.

Here is the original quote that I was referring to (from Remnant):
>Not to mention the fact that this charcter can now jump farther, carry more,
>use heavier weapons, impress the ladies or if a lady impress the guys, throw
>things farther, break grabs and entangles easier, shrug aside barriers that
>Normal Man has to take at least 1/2 phase to remove, and shove around little
>girly men at the beach. And all this can be yours for the low, low price of
>only 10, I say, 10 Power Points. :-)

And here is what I said:
>Not to be jerk, but STR does nothing to impress anyone. That is what PRE
>is for. I can make an 80 STR character and say that he looks like an
>80-lb weakling, since he is of an alien race...

What I should have said is (additions are _underlined_):
Not to be jerk, but STR
_by itself_
does nothing to impress anyone
_, from a game mechanics standpoint_.
That is what PRE is for.
_If you want your STR to make you impressive while just standing there
doing nothing, then you *MUST* buy PRE_.
_If you want your STR to help you in making PRE Attacks, then use it to
perform violent or unexpected actions._
_If you want both, do both_.

There. Done. Can I go home now?

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:34:46 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer
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On 3 Feb 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "PR" == Prodipto Roy <proy@MICROSOFT.com> writes:
>
> PR> I was going to mention the same thing. 25 STR may not be unreasonable
> PR> for Buffy given her ability to smack vampires around and bend steel in
> PR> her bare hands.
>
> Martial arts, plain and simple.

I believe you! I saw Buffy bending steel in her bare hands too, and I
don't know that that comes with martial arts. Buffy is really, really
STRONG. Also, I like the idea of presence defense--Buffy doesn't always
strike fear into the hearts of vampires, but she isn't fazed by them
either. Since presence "only for offense" (-1/2) is a staple,
accepted, Champions limitation, I submit that Presence "only for
defense (-1/2) would be a good construction.

Good job with your writeups.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:42:39 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Limitation/AP mods idea
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On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:

> On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, qts wrote:
>
> > >Hmm... there's an example of where the personal immunity is in the active
> > >power. But with many special effects, the personal immunity has nothing to
> > >do with the active power. Like Cyclops, with his personal immunity to his
> > >energy blast... it's not that the blast is more powerful or more complex,
> > >but that his skin can metabolize it. In this case the personal immunity
> > >should not affect the active cost if the player doesn't wish it.
> >
> > It is clearly advantageous for him to be immune, though.
> >
> > Right, I see what you mean and my solution is very simple: just use a
> > Partial Limitation 'Does not count to Active Points when Power is
> > Suppressed, Drained, or Dispelled'. I'd give that a -1/2 Limitation.
> > qts
>
> That's a good idea. But it doesn't take into account END cost or range. Do
> you think it's an acceptable tradeoff to claim that the reduced END cost
> balances the easier "adjustability" and reduced range?

Wait, now I see what you're getting at. When I say it shouldn't affect the
active cost, I'm not saying that it shouldn't cost more. The real cost is
still calculated the same, but the advantage doesn't apply to active cost.
Kind of like how area effect's effect is calculated--active cost (not
counting area effect). The personal immunity EB, at the player's option
can have the full active cost or an active cost that doesn't consider the
personal immunity, but either way, the *real* cost will be the same.


Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: rsimpson@svlhome1.beasys.com
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 21:00:15 +0000
From: Bob Simpson <rsimpson@beasys.com>
Subject: Re: Cardboard Heroes
Cc: champ-l@omg.org, Collie <collie@uniblab.com&>
Scooter <scott.ruggels@3do.com>
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At 18:03 14 12 97 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< Probably. Make sure that are of decent quality and of thick cardboard>>
>
> Thick cardboard? You wouldn't be able to affix the bottom flaps together. ;)
>Do you really think they need to be thicker than the 10-point cover stock we
>use on our books? Would you be willing to pay even *more* for thicker
>cardstock?
>
> As far as quality, I'm not letting you off the hook either. I'm more than
>happy to read/listen to feedback from people, but it has to be helpful and
>useful feedback. "Decent quality" doesn't cut the mustard, I'm afraid. I need
>to know what you mean by "decent quality."

I realize this is a bit old, but I'd still like to put my $0.02 cents in...

"Decent Art"
I liked both Jeff Dee's art and Denis Loubet's art: Jeff Dee's was more "open" and comic-bookish, and Denis' had more tone and the colors were richer. Art in either style is acceptable. One thing I'll point out about both artists is that they treated their subjects with some affection -- they took them seriously, there was no plethora of "blood and claws" characters, and no "cute" characters. I also liked the set of "normals," but if we can't have them all (yes, I'm greedy), please consider doing the supers first.
I realize it is more expensive, but "Cardboard Heros" have to have a front and a back. I've seen the "front only" types and the "profile printed on both sides" type and they just don't have the same impact. These are supposed to be an inexpensive and colorful substitute for metal miniatures, which are 3D by their nature.

"Decent Materials"
The original Cardboard Heroes had a nice finish that stood up for a while, but I always hit them with a shot of matte coating (from the art supply store) and this improved their life considerably. While I don't think that everybody is going to do this, a glossy coating is a must for minimum resistance to table-top mishaps. (Anybody remember the water soluble ink on the first set of Titan counters? :)
Another thing that helped improve the survivability of Cardboard Heroes was the plastic stands. The first thing I did with my sets was to a) cut them on the "top" fold line, b) rubber cement the sheet together and c) cut them apart and to size for the "plastic strip stands" that SJG sold. I saw how quickly folding them up ruined them, and glued "front to back" they stored flat quite nicely in one of those little plastic "tackle boxes" or the old SPI counter trays. I used them all (what? 13, 15 sets?) in my fantasy, SF and super-hero games since they first came out (1980? that's almost twenty years) and still have most of the originals in quite playable shape.
The cardstock that is used as covers on most game products is just too thin. They aren't easy to glue together, and the plastic stands don't grip them very well. It doesn't need to be much thicker, just some. It makes a world of difference -- I tried using the reprints of the Cardboard Heroes that Hero put in the GM screen, and they were just too darn flimsy.
I'm not sure what type of feedback you might get on this, but I would prefer that they actually be printed in "front to back" form, ready to be cut apart and slipped in a stand. You might even include a strip of the plastic stands in the package. I'm sure this would increase the perceived value of the product for a minimal cost of goods.

"Decent Price"
I almost don't care what the cost is -- there aren't any good super-hero minis out these days, and most of the SF minis are either too much of a caricature (Games Workshop, for example -- expensive, too) or not very "comic-bookish." I also don't have the time or inclination these days to paint the darn things. :)
I don't have the sales figures from the 1980's to make the comparison, but each package of Cardboard Heroes had approximately 36 counters -- even at $0.50 each, that's an $18.00 package. I'd gladly pay that every month for a new set of brightly colored folks in tights, powered armor suits, folks in chainmail and plate, SF monsters, space opera heroes, etc. etc. etc. etc.
It still takes about an hour to prepare a set for play, but that's nothing compared to the HOURS and HOURS of painting that would be required for metal miniatures.

"The Eternal Triangle"
You have can have it done well, done inexpensively, or done quickly. Pick two.

I'll gladly pay a premium for anything that saves me time, and looks good on the table.

Have I been specific enough? :-)

-- Bob Simpson

>>>>
"Come, fellow Vindicators! We must stop Doctor Destroyer's
latest plot, which is in conflict with our cultural paradigm, as
interpreted by the Vindicators' microculture and within each of
our own ideocultural isolates!"
<<<<

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:31:25 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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> TRG> Right. It is a block, plain and simple. That is the underlying
> TRG> maneuver base. If the block works, the attack is stopped and the
> TRG> attacker goes to the ground, taking no damage and getting a breakfall
> TRG> (maybe acrobatics) roll to avoid falling. That's it.
>
> I'm not trying to be disagreeable here, but that is not quite all. First,
> because it is a Block basis, the "defender" will act before the now-fallen
> attacker if both have their next action phases in the same segment.
> Because the attacker is on the ground his CV is halved (and you don't think
> that this is aggressive? :).

Actually, don't you think that being able to attack first next
time around, whether one's opponent is on the ground or not, is agressive?
It seems to have an agressive quality to me.

> Second, again because it is a Block basis, the defender may continue to
> block (and thus tumble) attackers until the start of his next action phase.

Quite, but at a -2 OCV cumulative per attacker. This won't work
for long against large groups of opponents. Not as well as a plain old
dodge, anyway. And note that a AE attack will not be blockable and,
because the Defensive Throw has been declared, Dive for Cover is not an
option.



-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:33:33 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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> > description of the advantages and limitations), and finally a paragraph
> > (probably in smaller print) giving the exact game-mechanical details of how
> > the whatzit was built.
>
> And above all else, *stop publishing supplements that claim to be generic
> but which focus primarily on superheroes!*

Why? The suppliments that don't spend a significant portion of
their space on Superheroics I personally usually don't buy. I'd love to
buy them all, but as I play Champions the most, that is what I support the
most.

> > nature of the powers: His view is that different abilities need different
> > mechanics in order to give them appropriate different "feels" - that a magical
> > bolt of lightning and a shot from a .45 pistol should have a greater
> > mechanical difference than given by different "special effects" or even
> > different advantages and limitations. But this is a basic philosophical
> > difference, and I don't think that Hero can be changed enough to satisfy
> > players of this sort.
>
> Agreed...


Quite. Personally, I think this is just a handicap of people
brought up by faulty gaming systems.



-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:35:15 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Limitation/AP mods idea
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> It is clearly advantageous for him to be immune, though.
>
> Right, I see what you mean and my solution is very simple: just use a
> Partial Limitation 'Does not count to Active Points when Power is
> Suppressed, Drained, or Dispelled'. I'd give that a -1/2 Limitation.


That limitation is only on the advantage, of course.

Just making that clear.



-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "PR" == Prodipto Roy <proy@MICROSOFT.com> writes:

PR> I was going to mention the same thing. 25 STR may not be unreasonable
PR> for Buffy given her ability to smack vampires around and bend steel in
PR> her bare hands.

Martial arts, plain and simple.

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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 98 22:05:02
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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On Tue, 3 Feb 1998 07:02:52 -0800, Tanja Nasset wrote:

>On Monday, February 02, 1998 3:41 PM, Curt Hicks wrote:
>
>
>>
>>Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I think two words sum it up: Math and Complexity
>>>
>>> I think that any time you need a calculator (or a computer program)
>in
>>> order to make a character, you are in a zone that *most* RPGers
>don't want
>>> to tread.
>>
>>You do NOT NEED a calculator, let alone a &&)(%^*&% spreadsheet to
>make
>>a character !!!! (I have never understood the appeal of Heromaker).
>
>
>If you don't use them, expect math errors in characters. Unless, of
>course, you are extra careful _and_ you do all the characters
>yourself.

Why should I expect math errors? It's all extremely simple math - stuff people should
have learned in elementary school.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:20:55 -0500
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "PR" == Prodipto Roy <proy@MICROSOFT.com> writes:
>
> PR> I was going to mention the same thing. 25 STR may not be
> unreasonable
> PR> for Buffy given her ability to smack vampires around and bend
> steel in
> PR> her bare hands.
>
> Martial arts, plain and simple.

What?!

martial arts allows her to bend steel in her bare hands? How the hell
do you figure THIS?!?


Todd


--
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:38:03 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer
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Didn't the movie Buffy catch a knife thrown at her face? Missile Deflection
needed...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And go on to rule this world from beyond the grave."
"Indeed!"
"That, or check into a mental hospital; whatever comes first."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 17:38:10 -0500 (EST)
From: THE MAD HARLEQUIN <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Re: Buffy's STR
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RAT>Martial arts, plain and simple.

I can live with Martial Arts for smacking vampires around, but when
did Martial Arts let you bend the barrel of a hunting rifle?

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 16:38:19 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions Listserv <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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> > What's the rationale? I don't really see one other than, "The GM
> > says so." I'd feel quite cheated if a GM pulled that kind of ruling.
>
> The rationale is 'missile reflection is not a defensive action' ;).


And I, and many other Champs players that I know, would cry BS.

It's a maneuver that is intended to stop an incoming attack, plain
and simple. It just so happens that the attack is redirected as a SFX.
It is still plenty defensive. Giving answers to questions that aren't
logical, but work because of an abstracted rule set, tends to turn people
off to a game system.



-Tim Gilberg

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 14:45:56 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: [Re: TUMA Maneuvers]
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At 01:12 PM 2/3/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
>
>TRG> Ah, but wouldn't this suggest that offensive maneuvers cannot be
>TRG> defensive in any way?
>
>Hell! no. Consider the set "all combat maneuvers" (as a subset of "all
>actions"). "Defensive combat maneuvers" is a subset of that (as an aside,
>one may abort to use any maneuver in this set -- consistancy is a good
>thing). "Offensive combat maneuvers" is another, nonintersecting subset.
>"Offensive combat maneuvers with defensive aspects" is a subset of
>"offensive maneuvers". There is no "defensive combat maneuvers with
>offensive aspects" subset; this subset is really "offensive combat
>maneuvers with defensive aspects". One may substitute "aggressive" for
>"offensive".

This kind of argument is why I've given up.
For someone who is usually strictly by-the-Big Blue Book, Rat, you've
really gone out in left field for this one. I mean, aren't you usually the
main opponent of terms such as "offensive power"?
I've *never* seen this kind of demarcation in the Hero System rulebook.
---
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

TRG> Actually, don't you think that being able to attack first next
TRG> time around, whether one's opponent is on the ground or not, is
TRG> agressive? It seems to have an agressive quality to me.

In the most generic terms, as far as game mechanics are concerned,
offensive or aggressive actions have the intent of putting one's opponent
at a disadvantage. Defensive actions have the intent of putting oneself at
an advantage or negating one's opponent's advantage. To put a bit of a
philosophical spin on it, offensive actions are "external", they affect
one's opponent; defensive actions are "internal", they affect oneself. The
special effects of a defensive maneuver may appear aggressive; the special
effects of an aggressive maneuver may appear defensive. But the SFX of
these maneuvers do not change the intent of the maneuver.

The way Block basis affects the blocker's DEX order is internal, defensive.
The way the Throw element afffects one's opponent is external, offensive,
aggressive.

If a "Defensive Throw" techique -- not maneuver -- is built with two
maneuvers, a Block maneuver followed by a Throw maneuver, the block would
be defensive, and the throw would be aggressive. And we would not be
having this, well, whatever you want to call it. :)

But the Defensive Throw maneuver is a single maneuver. One must consider
all of its aspects, internal and external, defensive and aggressive, as a
single entity. One cannot separate the defensive aspects of the Block
basis from the aggressive aspects of the Throw element.

Aggressive actions certainly may have defensive aspects. Most aggressive
martial arts maneuvers reflect this with DCV bonuses. But the reverse is
not true. Defensive actions cannot have aggressive aspects. They cannot
directly affect one's opponent, only oneself.

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 14:53:14 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Limitation/AP mods idea
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At 01:42 PM 2/3/1998 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>> Right, I see what you mean and my solution is very simple: just use a
>> Partial Limitation 'Does not count to Active Points when Power is
>> Suppressed, Drained, or Dispelled'. I'd give that a -1/2 Limitation.
>> qts
>
>That's a good idea. But it doesn't take into account END cost or range. Do
>you think it's an acceptable tradeoff to claim that the reduced END cost
>balances the easier "adjustability" and reduced range?

Try this.
The Limitation, called "Inactive," is -1/4. It can only be bought on an
Advantage (or, with the GM's permission, an add-on element), and never on a
base Power. Inactive Advantages do not add to the Power's END cost, range,
resistance to Adjustment Powers, or other characteristics based on Active
Points.
(Personally, I think this may be worth a +1/4 Advantage rather than a
-1/4 Limitation, but it's bad enough that we already can have Limited
Advantages without also having Advantaged Advantages.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:54:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Tim R. Gilberg writes:

> And I, and many other Champs players that I know, would cry BS.
>
> It's a maneuver that is intended to stop an incoming attack, plain
> and simple. It just so happens that the attack is redirected as a SFX.
> It is still plenty defensive. Giving answers to questions that aren't
> logical, but work because of an abstracted rule set, tends to turn people
> off to a game system.

Shrug. I consider the attack roll to hit the person you are reflecting _at_ to
be the aggressive part -- if they want to abort and reflect the shot into thin
air, they're perfectly free to do so (i.e. if you abort to reflect, you always
miss on the attack roll). To be honest, this handling of missile reflection
has something to do with a general distaste for how the power is handled in the
first place, it is quite unbalanced (I would like it much better if you paid
for how many damage classes you can actually deflect).

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 14:56:18 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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At 03:33 PM 2/3/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> And above all else, *stop publishing supplements that claim to be generic
>> but which focus primarily on superheroes!*
>
> Why? The suppliments that don't spend a significant portion of
>their space on Superheroics I personally usually don't buy. I'd love to
>buy them all, but as I play Champions the most, that is what I support the
>most.

The funny thing is, if I've done The Ultimate Super Vehicle the way I
hope it was done, it should make you *both* happy. (At least, on this
count.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer
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>>>>> "TH" == Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> writes:

>> Martial arts, plain and simple.

TH> What?!

TH> martial arts allows her to bend steel in her bare hands? How the hell
TH> do you figure THIS?!?

I can bend steel in my bare hands, too. Perhaps not as much as Superman,
for instance, but I can bend some hefty gague steel wire.

Okay, martial arts and a good roll when she pushes her human-normal-range
Strength. With a 15 base Strength and a good roll she can achieve the
aforementioend 25.

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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 03 Feb 1998 17:57:13 -0500
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>>>>> "JaRP" == John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> writes:

JaRP> Didn't the movie Buffy catch a knife thrown at her face? Missile
JaRP> Deflection needed...

"You threw a knife... at my face!"

"And you caught it."

Goddess, I love that movie. :)

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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

>> The rationale is 'missile reflection is not a defensive action' ;).

TRG> And I, and many other Champs players that I know, would cry BS.

To be honest, so would I. Missile Reflection requires an exception to be
useful, just as Dispell requires it.

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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 15:14:09 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer
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At 05:56 PM 2/3/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "TH" == Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> writes:
>
>>> Martial arts, plain and simple.
>
>TH> What?!
>
>TH> martial arts allows her to bend steel in her bare hands? How the hell
>TH> do you figure THIS?!?
>
>I can bend steel in my bare hands, too. Perhaps not as much as Superman,
>for instance, but I can bend some hefty gague steel wire.
>
>Okay, martial arts and a good roll when she pushes her human-normal-range
>Strength. With a 15 base Strength and a good roll she can achieve the
>aforementioend 25.

Going by the movie, I'm not 100% convinced that her STR actually was in
the normal human range. I mean, you gotta have *some* special advantage
when you're fighting those bloodsuckers. And I got the definite impression
that the slayers had that special advantage, as a part of being slayers.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer
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Date: 03 Feb 1998 18:34:28 -0500
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:

BG> Going by the movie, I'm not 100% convinced that her STR actually was
BG> in the normal human range. I mean, you gotta have *some* special
BG> advantage when you're fighting those bloodsuckers.

Only if you assume that those bloodsuckers are something spectacular to
begin with. In fact, they are not; most are pretty pathetic. Movie-Buffy
never displayed any tricks that were "superhuman".

BG> And I got the definite impression that the slayers had that special
BG> advantage, as a part of being slayers.

Most of that is talent, intensive training, and cramps. :)

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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:35:52 -0500
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> TH> martial arts allows her to bend steel in her bare hands? How the
> hell
> TH> do you figure THIS?!?
>
> I can bend steel in my bare hands, too. Perhaps not as much as
> Superman,
> for instance, but I can bend some hefty gague steel wire.

Oh, give me a break Rat. Its amazing how far you will go to not have
to admit that you are wrong.

The issue wasnt bending steel wire, it was bending a STEEL BAR. A bar
that is well beyond the limits of a normal human strength. It has
nothing to do with martial arts, and it has nothing to do with steel
wire.

Save your pride and just admit you screwed up.


Todd


--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Todd Hanson Minnesota: Land of two seasons:
BadTodd@dacmail.net winter is coming, winter is here.
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: traveler owned process doing -bs
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:53:15 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Hero Templates
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On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Brian Wong wrote:

> So;
>
> Do we want to sit down and start doing 'Templates'?
>
> If so, we'd need to break it down by the major genre's as well.
>
> A system to use might be where a combination of template,
> package deals, and about 50 points will result in a completed character.

Uhh... exactly how would "template" and "package deal" be different from
each other? (besides the point break that package deals get...)

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Prodipto Roy <proy@MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: RE: Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:53:24 -0800
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> -----Original Message-----
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "TH" == Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> writes:
>
> >> Martial arts, plain and simple.
>
> TH> What?!
>
> TH> martial arts allows her to bend steel in her bare hands? How the hell
> TH> do you figure THIS?!?
>
> I can bend steel in my bare hands, too. Perhaps not as much as Superman,
> for instance, but I can bend some hefty gague steel wire.
>
> Okay, martial arts and a good roll when she pushes her human-normal-range
> Strength. With a 15 base Strength and a good roll she can achieve the
> aforementioend 25.
>
A few points:
1) The rifle barrel was not made of hefty gauge steel wire.
2) It didn't look like she was pushing.
3) She didn't have justification to push.
4) She seemed pretty confident that she could bend the gun barrel, not
counting on a good roll.

Additionally, I'm not convinced that Buffy necessarily takes place in a
Heroic campaign, but even if it does, I'd still buy the 25 STR.

--Pro

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:03:43 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Limitation/AP mods idea
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On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, qts wrote:
> >Hmm... there's an example of where the personal immunity is in the active
> >power. But with many special effects, the personal immunity has nothing to
> >do with the active power. Like Cyclops, with his personal immunity to his
> >energy blast... it's not that the blast is more powerful or more complex,
> >but that his skin can metabolize it. In this case the personal immunity
> >should not affect the active cost if the player doesn't wish it.
>
> It is clearly advantageous for him to be immune, though.
>
> Right, I see what you mean and my solution is very simple: just use a
> Partial Limitation 'Does not count to Active Points when Power is
> Suppressed, Drained, or Dispelled'. I'd give that a -1/2 Limitation.

At most, -1/4, considering the cost of "Difficult to Dispel".

I'd tend to throw in 'Does not count to Active points when power is Aided
or Transferred (both to and from), either', and just call the whole thing
a +0.

Of course, that's only if END cost and range get calculated off of Base
cost instead of active cost...

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 18:18:16 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

>I want to hear, as specifically as you care to get, what makes Hero less
>attractive -- assuming that the genre is attractive, and that the "feel" of
>the system (e.g. generally cinematic) is good -- and what scares them away?

Replying this late, I doubt I will have anything to say that hasn't already
been covered by several people...but if you're keeping a tally of the most
common responses, that's okay:

:) "Cool! I can do any character I want!" :)
This is really the main attraction of Hero System. Any character, any
genre, and they're interchangeable [mostly, not always 100% with pre-4th
Edition]. Hero is not the only system that can make this claim, but it may
be the system that does it best.
I'm in the middle of my first GURPS game at the moment, and I find it
lacking in some areas of game mechanics: characters with only four
characteristics aren't flexible enough, for one thing. Also, the layout of
the book separates Skills into subcategories, so that when I shop for
Skills to create a character, I have to go through maybe eight separate
Skill lists: Combat Skills, Craft Skills, Science Skills, etc.

:( "I'm not into comic books." :(
The perception of Hero as a game based on comics is partly the "fault" of
the nice folks at Hero, who continually *say* that Hero System can be used
for any genre, but then consistently use Champions as the flagship line,
releasing (by my guess-timate, I haven't actually counted it up) more
material for that single genre than all others combined. Lots of people
think comics are just for kids, and don't want to play that genre.

:( "Then why not just play GURPS?" :(
Not only do we as consumers share some of the responsibility for the lack
of non-Champions products, but we may sometimes try to introduce people to
this game by comparison and contrast with a game they already know, usually
AD&D or GURPS. Virtually the only thing Hero has in common with AD&D is
that both are roleplaying games. (I think this is a good thing, though
I've been playing D&D/AD&D for 20 years. I admit to being so entrenched in
the system that I've been unwilling to switch to Fantasy Hero, and use Hero
only for non-fantasy genres.)

Hero System's main competition is usually perceived to be GURPS, not the
only other point-based, design-your-own-character RPG, but the best known.
And Hero can suffer by comparison to GURPS, in terms of genre support if
nothing else. I'm gearing up to run a Star Hero game, and am finding much
more useful material in the "GURPS Space" sourcebook than in Star Hero
itself. The Hero book forces me to do all my own research on stars and
planets if I want to put together a campaign using any real science at
all. GURPS Space has already done a lot of that work for me...and yes, I
did check it against encyclopedias and astronomy texts. The group that
will be playing this Star Hero game when it's ready is currently playing
GURPS (some of them for the first time) and want to know why they have to
switch game systems if GURPS is already better prepared for the genre.
Frankly, it's a good question.

GURPS is still supported by Pyramid, a bimonthly gaming magazine;
Adventurer's Club no longer exists, as far as I can tell. GURPS has close
to 150 sourcebooks and supplements out (many out of print) and continues to
publish a half dozen a year. New products for Hero have largely gone the
way of Hero Plus or been licensed out to other companies. To some people,
it looks like Hero System is dying a slow death, and unfortunately this is
both an effect and a *cause* of indifference.

:( "Nothing new under the sun." :(
The "Hero Plus" line, and the licensing, are both good things, but ideally
they should not have replaced publishing of paper products by Hero, only
supplemented it. This seems to work well for Chaosium, which is supported
by licensed products from Pagan Publishing and...someone else I can't
remember. Few other companies offer products in electronic format (other
than computer games based on their game system), so it should be played up
as an advantage. It's not *much* of an advantage at the moment, given the
small selection of available products. There are only, what, seven Hero
Plus products in existence? I think four of them reprint books I was able
to buy before they went out of print, and two of the remaining three are
Dark Champions supplements, which I don't play. I may get around to buying
The Ultimate Super Mage at some point -- even if I don't play Fantasy Hero,
characters like Dr. Strange are still welcome in a Champions game -- but
there's nothing else for me there. I hear talk of more Hero PLus releases,
but how long has it been since the last one came out? How much longer
since the last paper product? Publish or perish, guys! Yes, it's GREAT
that we players have an opportunity to submit things for publication this
way, but fans shouldn't have to do all the work. The articles on Digital
Hero are nice, but they effectively reduce the old Adventurer's Club to the
status of an apa. I think that's sad.

:( "Too much math." and "I can't find the power/item I want." :(
These difficulties go together. Usually people will enjoy the game if they
can get past the initial character creation., but that process is likely to
be one of the most complex a gamer has ever been through. Not only the
fact that much more than the usual amount of math is involved, it can be
hard to make informed decisions about what Skills and Powers to choose,
especially when so many of the possible powers exist only in generic
component form. Most gamers are used to choosing spells, or acquiring
class abilities "off the rack" and ready to use. Having a tailor-made suit
is nice, but it can be a little overwhelming when you arrive at the tailor
shop and are handed a
bolt of cloth, a pair of scissors, needle and thread, and are invited to
make your own suit. You have no idea where to start. It doesn't make
sense to most new players that they can't just buy Superspeed Running, they
have to buy Flight and put Limitations on it; they can't just say "I want a
sword", they have to define it as a HKA of some number of dice, and apply
Focus and possibly other limitations to it. If you tell people, "anything
you can think of, no matter how outlandish, can be constructed using the
generic Powers, Advantages and Limitations", it sounds great. But then
they find that "EVERYTHING I want, no matter how common and ordinary, has to
be built from the ground up using generic Powers, Advantages and
Limitations" and suddenly it's a big headache.

:( "Wait, you mean I have to pay character points for THAT?" :(
I think this last is less the fault of the system itself than in the GM's
interpretation of the system (but then, that's just *my* interpretation).
Say a character has a Secret ID and a normal job. Naturally he has a house
or apartment, and odds are he has a car as well. Some GM's would require
that the car be built using points. But if it's an ordinary vehicle,
mainly used for getting to work and back, has no enhancements or special
gadgets built into it, and is in all ways exactly the car the character
would drive if he weren't a superhero...then why make him pay points for
it, any more than he has to pay points for his clothes, his furniture,
stereo system,
etc. ? This same logic applies to handguns, home computers and other
items: if the gun is mainly kept for home defense, and the home computer
has no special functions (cannot tap into secret government databases, does
not provide a link to the Millenneum Group, etc.) and is mostly used for
email, ordinary internet access, tax preparation, etc., then you should not
have to build these items, just specify that the character has them.


:( "My GM says I can't (or have to) do this! This game sucks!" :(
Some GMs are extreme in their interpretation of not allowing the character
anything he hasn't paid points for, and would require these items to be
built with points. That is going to scare people away. The rule should be
that you don't have to pay points for something unless it regularly affects
your heroic activities. There is plenty of precedent for this way of
thinking inherent in the rules. A DNPC is only worth points if they become
involved in the adventure -- or interfere with it in some way -- and for
that matter, only if they appear at least as often as an 8- roll. You can
list any Disadvantages that make sense for your character, but they are
only worth points if they make things inconvenient for you DURING PLAY, and
ON A RECURRING BASIS. The same standard should be applied to benefits; if
you aren't using the car as a supervehicle, your 486 with Windows95 (or
your Mac System 7) is not the Batcomputer, and you rarely take your gun out
of the house, those things do not regularly affect your heroic activites
and should not have to be paid for with points until they do.

Damon




------------------
People don't lack strength, they lack will.
-- Victor Hugo


Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "\"Remnant\" <easleyap@mobis.com>
\"David Fair\"" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:18:21 -0600
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
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To: champ-l@omg.org

David Fair wrote:

>No argument that violent actions add to prescence attacks, but that
>doesn't mean the character in question is inherently more impressive,
>just that he gets more dice because he does impressive things. It is a
>subtle difference.


I completely understand the subtle difference between being inherently more
impressive and being able to be more impressive. The former is more passive
than the first. Every character, however, has a base impressiveness
determined by their PRE characteristics. This base is then modified by
their actions, the situation, and even their reputation. This is the
justification for additions to PRE attacks depending on the above factors.

>A high STR does not equal a High PRE. Someone said a while back that a
>high STR would aid in getting the girls (paraphrased). Now, why on earth
>would those violent actions make the women come runnin? Most women I know
>carry pepper spray (or heavier armament) and look to get the hell outta
>there when the violent actions start up.

I was the one who made those statements. Try to think different. I never
said that any violent actions attract women. Forget the game stats for a
moment. It has been my experience that many women are attracted to strong
men. It is part of nature and survival instincts. My statements are based
on my opinion that more women like strong men than women who like weak or
even normal men. Not that those men will necessarily be more impressive in
general. Simply that they have a feature that has a high tendency to do
many things, including attracting the opposite sex and being able to be used
to increase impressiveness above normal in some situations.


Be A Hero.
Alan

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "\"Remnant\" <easleyap@mobis.com>
\"David Fair\"" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:18:54 -0600
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To: champ-l@omg.org

>On 2/2/98 10:21 PM Remnant (easleyap@mobis.com) Said:
>
>>
>>Again if both have the same PRE (which was my original premise) then they
>>will both be equally impressive until the one with the huge muscles breaks
>>something large in a violent manner adding to the dice he gets to use in a
>>PRE attack. IMHO, more dice results in more impressive.
>
>No argument that violent actions add to prescence attacks, but that
>doesn't mean the character in question is inherently more impressive,
>just that he gets more dice because he does impressive things. It is a
>subtle difference.
>
>A high STR does not equal a High PRE. Someone said a while back that a
>high STR would aid in getting the girls (paraphrased). Now, why on earth
>would those violent actions make the women come runnin? Most women I know
>carry pepper spray (or heavier armament) and look to get the hell outta
>there when the violent actions start up.
>
>David A. Fair


You are thinking in too linear a fashion. I have noticed a PSY LIM of many
women is: Attracted to strong men.

Note: I am not trying to be sexist. I should also mention that I have
known a man or two who has this same PSY LIM. ;-)

This not completely uncommon PSY LIM of women of the female gender is the
basis for my original statement not based on any increase of PRE or
substitution of STR for PRE.

I am not saying that all women have this PSY LIM or even most but I am
certain that a measurable percentage of them do, my wife included.

I am honestly sorry that I started another unimportant argument on this fine
mailing list.


Alan



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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:29:27 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

>
> > > description of the advantages and limitations), and finally a paragraph
> > > (probably in smaller print) giving the exact game-mechanical details of how
> > > the whatzit was built.
> >
> > And above all else, *stop publishing supplements that claim to be generic
> > but which focus primarily on superheroes!*
>
> Why? The suppliments that don't spend a significant portion of
> their space on Superheroics I personally usually don't buy. I'd love to
> buy them all, but as I play Champions the most, that is what I support the
> most.

But they are also the ones that contribute the most to Hero's rep as being
a superhero game, rather than a universal system.

> > > nature of the powers: His view is that different abilities need different
> > > mechanics in order to give them appropriate different "feels" - that a magical
> > > bolt of lightning and a shot from a .45 pistol should have a greater
> > > mechanical difference than given by different "special effects" or even
> > > different advantages and limitations. But this is a basic philosophical
> > > difference, and I don't think that Hero can be changed enough to satisfy
> > > players of this sort.
> >
> > Agreed...
>
> Quite. Personally, I think this is just a handicap of people
> brought up by faulty gaming systems.

No, there's actually something to be said for the non-Hero point of view
(different mechanics for different abilities in order to provide different
feels); I was agreeing that you couldn't change Hero to accomodate that
perspective without it ceasing to be Hero.

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:33:54 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Limitation/AP mods idea
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On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:

> On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, qts wrote:
>
> > >Hmm... there's an example of where the personal immunity is in the active
> > >power. But with many special effects, the personal immunity has nothing to
> > >do with the active power. Like Cyclops, with his personal immunity to his
> > >energy blast... it's not that the blast is more powerful or more complex,
> > >but that his skin can metabolize it. In this case the personal immunity
> > >should not affect the active cost if the player doesn't wish it.
> >
> > It is clearly advantageous for him to be immune, though.
> >
> > Right, I see what you mean and my solution is very simple: just use a
> > Partial Limitation 'Does not count to Active Points when Power is
> > Suppressed, Drained, or Dispelled'. I'd give that a -1/2 Limitation.
> > qts
>
> That's a good idea. But it doesn't take into account END cost or range. Do
> you think it's an acceptable tradeoff to claim that the reduced END cost
> balances the easier "adjustability" and reduced range?

Actually, the END Cost and range effects tend to balance each other out
nicely; I just don't think that it's appropriate for every Advantage to
increase them both automatically.

Play-balance-wise, the existing system works fine; concept-wise, however,
it's a little off.

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:39:22 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Limitation/AP mods idea
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On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:

> At 01:42 PM 2/3/1998 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
> >> Right, I see what you mean and my solution is very simple: just use a
> >> Partial Limitation 'Does not count to Active Points when Power is
> >> Suppressed, Drained, or Dispelled'. I'd give that a -1/2 Limitation.
> >> qts
> >
> >That's a good idea. But it doesn't take into account END cost or range. Do
> >you think it's an acceptable tradeoff to claim that the reduced END cost
> >balances the easier "adjustability" and reduced range?
>
> Try this.
> The Limitation, called "Inactive," is -1/4. It can only be bought on an
> Advantage (or, with the GM's permission, an add-on element), and never on a
> base Power. Inactive Advantages do not add to the Power's END cost, range,
> resistance to Adjustment Powers, or other characteristics based on Active
> Points.
> (Personally, I think this may be worth a +1/4 Advantage rather than a
> -1/4 Limitation, but it's bad enough that we already can have Limited
> Advantages without also having Advantaged Advantages.)

Then call it a -0 Limitation and be done with it. On the one hand, it
means that the power will cost less END to use and is easier to raise with
Aids and Transfers; OTOH, it also means that it will have less range and
will be more vulnerable to being Dispelled, Drained, Suppressed, or
Transferred.

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 17:12:39 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Limitation/AP mods idea
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 06:39 PM 2/3/1998 -0600, Dataweaver wrote:
>> The Limitation, called "Inactive," is -1/4. It can only be bought on an
>> Advantage (or, with the GM's permission, an add-on element), and never on a
>> base Power. Inactive Advantages do not add to the Power's END cost, range,
>> resistance to Adjustment Powers, or other characteristics based on Active
>> Points.
>> (Personally, I think this may be worth a +1/4 Advantage rather than a
>> -1/4 Limitation, but it's bad enough that we already can have Limited
>> Advantages without also having Advantaged Advantages.)
>
>Then call it a -0 Limitation and be done with it. On the one hand, it
>means that the power will cost less END to use and is easier to raise with
>Aids and Transfers; OTOH, it also means that it will have less range and
>will be more vulnerable to being Dispelled, Drained, Suppressed, or
>Transferred.

Frankly, now that I've had more time to think about it, I think you're
right on that call. A +/-0 modifier is the way to go on this.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm


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Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 17:53:53 -0800
From: David Cooper <raven@castles.com>
Reply-To: raven@castles.com
Organization: Raventronics
Subject: Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer
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Prodipto Roy wrote:

> A few points:
> 1) The rifle barrel was not made of hefty gauge steel wire.
> 2) It didn't look like she was pushing.
> 3) She didn't have justification to push.
> 4) She seemed pretty confident that she could bend the gun barrel, not
> counting on a good roll.
>
> Additionally, I'm not convinced that Buffy necessarily takes place in a
> Heroic campaign, but even if it does, I'd still buy the 25 STR.
>
> --Pro

Just to add my two cent's worth. I just rewatched the eposode, the gun had two
barrels. So I can see her being fairly strong, but not a 25 str. That would let
her left 1760lbs. Just a bit much. I think about a str of 17-18, that would let
her left around 600lbs. just a thought.

--
"Look, mentally I'm older than Lincoln, emotionally
I'm six years old, physically I look like I'm in my
twenties, my hormones are going top speed, and I'm
something evolved from a slug evolved into something
evolved from an ape. And YOU got the nerve to say
YOU'RE confused?!?"


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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:11:24 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer
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> PR> I was going to mention the same thing. 25 STR may not be unreasonable
> PR> for Buffy given her ability to smack vampires around and bend steel in
> PR> her bare hands.
>
> Martial arts, plain and simple.


To bend steel gun barrels with her bare hands? 25 STR might fit
the movie Buffy, but for the TV show version, 25 is a minimum. I'd go
more towards 30 to fit the effect. She has shown other signs of a high
STR including superleap and increased physical toughness. (Higher Stun,
Pd, REC)



-Tim Gilberg


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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:13:35 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: [Re: TUMA Maneuvers]
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> >And note that a AE attack will not be blockable and,
> > because the Defensive Throw has been declared, Dive for Cover is not an
> > option.
>
> Since you did not Abort to the Defensive Throw, you may Abort to a Dive for Cover on the next Segment.


Yeah, but I'm talking about an attack in the same segment. You're
stuck. It's a way to get any Martial Artist using a defensive maneuver.
Get them to commit to a Dodge or Block when they are holding a half-phase,
then hit them with AE attacks.



-Tim Gilberg

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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:16:35 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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> > Why? The suppliments that don't spend a significant portion of
> >their space on Superheroics I personally usually don't buy. I'd love to
> >buy them all, but as I play Champions the most, that is what I support the
> >most.
>
> The funny thing is, if I've done The Ultimate Super Vehicle the way I
> hope it was done, it should make you *both* happy. (At least, on this
> count.)


From what I've seen of the Alpha version I have, yes. It handles
non-Super environs quite well, but adds a lot for the Super genre.



-Tim Gilberg

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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:29:37 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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> > Why? The suppliments that don't spend a significant portion of
> > their space on Superheroics I personally usually don't buy. I'd love to
> > buy them all, but as I play Champions the most, that is what I support the
> > most.
>
> But they are also the ones that contribute the most to Hero's rep as being
> a superhero game, rather than a universal system.

Fine. But the solution is not to handicap the flagship.
Especially a flagship as good as Champions. Just add some more support
ships. Get Star Hero going again. Release more for Fantasy Hero.
Release a suppliment or two for Ninja Hero and Western Hero. Release a
Vampire Hunters suppliment for Horror Hero.

> > brought up by faulty gaming systems.
>
> No, there's actually something to be said for the non-Hero point of view
> (different mechanics for different abilities in order to provide different
> feels);

Actually, I don't know that I'd agree. There are just ideas that
have arisen that there needs to be a difference in mechanics for various
different game objects. Say game A has two different attack mechanics, X
and Y covering concepts N and M respectively. If the mechanics for each
were switched (with everything else being equal, lets just say that the
dice were changed) so that Y handled N and X handled M, most people would
still insist that that is what is natural. It's not that there needs to
be difference, it's that people think there needs to be difference.

> I was agreeing that you couldn't change Hero to accomodate that
> perspective without it ceasing to be Hero.

Right. Or any "universal" system, for that matter. For the most
part, anyway.



-Tim Gilberg

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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:31:53 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer
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> Just to add my two cent's worth. I just rewatched the eposode, the gun had two
> barrels. So I can see her being fairly strong, but not a 25 str. That would let
> her left 1760lbs. Just a bit much. I think about a str of 17-18, that would let
> her left around 600lbs. just a thought.
k

This gets back to the previous discussion of just what the lifting
weight signifies, but going by the damage to the steel and the superleap,
the only two indicators we really have, 25-30 is more appropriate.



-Tim Gilberg

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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:40:35 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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> > Oh, quite true. In fact, I've been toying with adding a
> >Block+Grab maneuver to mirror the effects of neutralizing an incoming
> >attack by physically restraining the attacker.
>
> This would be a very appropriate maneuver for Krav Maga (another martial
> art that can be appropriate for a low-level brick).
k

OK. Let's discuss the Block+Grab maneuver, using the rules in
TUMA.

Obviously a block base (allowing it to go first, be quiet, Rat, we
know your view on this -- we'll go with what everyone else says). Add
the Grab element. No problem.

Now, as this is a defensive maneuver, what Block options can be
allowed. On the same segment of the Block and Grab, what can the
character do, if anything. I'd be in favor of holding only, limiting the
maneuver by not allowing redirect, throw, or crush. Anyone else?



-Tim Gilberg

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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:43:43 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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> >If you don't use them, expect math errors in characters. Unless, of
> >course, you are extra careful _and_ you do all the characters
> >yourself.
>
> Why should I expect math errors? It's all extremely simple math - stuff people should
> have learned in elementary school.


Yes, but many Champs characters are well beyond Elementary School
math. And once someone has taken Calculus, all basic math abilities are
usually gone.

It doesn't matter though. The math taught in Grade School is a
waste of time. Why does a student have to be able to add a column of 20
numbers? Why be able to devide a 7 digit number by a 5 digit number.

Without a lot of double checking on the above, errors will occur.
For anything where either time or accuracy is important, a device will be
used to assist the individual. Why not teach more concepts, more
real-world math, more story problems, and calculator and computer usage
skills.



-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 20:10:08 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

> I'd put it only on the block roll. If it works, attacker is going
> to the floor unless a breakfall roll is made. If it doesn't work, the
> attack flies free and no throw can be made.

Attempt the block. If you miss, then you didn't connect properly, and
the opposition gets the chance to pummel you. All based on the one roll, did
you block the attack?
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 20:12:20 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "JaRP" == John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> writes:
>
> JaRP> Missile Reflection. Explain that, please, Rat. You can even abort to it.
>
> It is a legacy of the second edition of the game.

What do you mean, its a legacy of the second edition? Could you PLEASE
tell me what the hell that has to do with the origional question?
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 22:16:49 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, John Desmarais wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Feb 1998 07:02:52 -0800, Tanja Nasset wrote:
> >On Monday, February 02, 1998 3:41 PM, Curt Hicks wrote:
> >>Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I think two words sum it up: Math and Complexity
> >>>
> >>> I think that any time you need a calculator (or a computer program)
> >>> in order to make a character, you are in a zone that *most* RPGers
> >>> don't want to tread.
> >>
> >>You do NOT NEED a calculator, let alone a &&)(%^*&% spreadsheet to
> >>make a character !!!! (I have never understood the appeal of
> >>Heromaker).
> >
> >If you don't use them, expect math errors in characters. Unless, of
> >course, you are extra careful _and_ you do all the characters
> >yourself.
>
> Why should I expect math errors? It's all extremely simple math - stuff
> people should have learned in elementary school.

I am a math major, and pride myself in being able to do arithmetic in my
head. I have beaten people with calculators to the right answer for
fairly complex calculations on numerous occasions. Despite that, I still
goof every once in a while and transpose a digit or reverse a sign; it
happens to the best of us.

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 22:18:52 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

>
>
> > > Why? The suppliments that don't spend a significant portion of
> > >their space on Superheroics I personally usually don't buy. I'd love to
> > >buy them all, but as I play Champions the most, that is what I support the
> > >most.
> >
> > The funny thing is, if I've done The Ultimate Super Vehicle the way I
> > hope it was done, it should make you *both* happy. (At least, on this
> > count.)
>
> From what I've seen of the Alpha version I have, yes. It handles
> non-Super environs quite well, but adds a lot for the Super genre.

But how's it presented? "This is a book for creating vehicles for a
superhero genre; oh, and BTW it's useful in other genres as well" would be
the wrong way...

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 23:37:45 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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>OK. Let's discuss the Block+Grab maneuver, using the rules in TUMA.
>
>Obviously a block base (allowing it to go first, be quiet, Rat, we
>know your view on this -- we'll go with what everyone else says). Add
>the Grab element. No problem.
>
>Now, as this is a defensive maneuver, what Block options can be
>allowed. On the same segment of the Block and Grab, what can the
>character do, if anything. I'd be in favor of holding only, limiting the
>maneuver by not allowing redirect, throw, or crush. Anyone else?

I agree. I've always thought that most 'Grab and X' maneuvers should be
split over two phases anyway (as John opens a whole new can'o'worms).
Stylistically, I have a hard time seeing someone perform a 'Grab and Throw'
or 'Grab and Re-direct' as one smooth motion. All Grab should do in the
phase you actually do the Grabbing is establish a hold, IMHO. Grab is a
non-exclusive basis - if you want to Grab and Crush in the same phase, buy a
Strike maneuver with Grab. Once you've got a Grab going, sure, you can do
the other stuff as another phase's action. This I think should be a change
in 5th Edition. Grab does way too much on a single action to IMHO be
considered balanced, especially as an 'everyman' maneuver.

Anyway, with a Block/Grab, yeah, all you should get is a Grab and Hold
(probably One Limb, at that).

BTW, 'Grab Weapon' is an exclusive basis in TUMA. Can a 'normal' Grab be
used to the same effect, so long as the -2 OCV penalty as per BBB is
applied? IOW, is the effect of 'Grab Weapon' to ignore this penalty and for
that reason it becomes an exclusive basis?

Anyway. You sort of need Block/Grab if you want to model the old ninja sword
grabbing technique.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And go on to rule this world from beyond the grave."
"Indeed!"
"That, or check into a mental hospital; whatever comes first."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 22:38:59 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

>
> > > Why? The suppliments that don't spend a significant portion of
> > > their space on Superheroics I personally usually don't buy. I'd love to
> > > buy them all, but as I play Champions the most, that is what I support the
> > > most.
> >
> > But they are also the ones that contribute the most to Hero's rep as being
> > a superhero game, rather than a universal system.
>
> Fine. But the solution is not to handicap the flagship.
> Especially a flagship as good as Champions. Just add some more support
> ships. Get Star Hero going again. Release more for Fantasy Hero.
> Release a suppliment or two for Ninja Hero and Western Hero. Release a
> Vampire Hunters suppliment for Horror Hero.

And when you release a supplement that is billed as being universal, make
it universal (as opposed to "Champions + other stuff").

> > > brought up by faulty gaming systems.
> >
> > No, there's actually something to be said for the non-Hero point of view
> > (different mechanics for different abilities in order to provide different
> > feels);
>
> Actually, I don't know that I'd agree. There are just ideas that
> have arisen that there needs to be a difference in mechanics for various
> different game objects. Say game A has two different attack mechanics, X
> and Y covering concepts N and M respectively. If the mechanics for each
> were switched (with everything else being equal, lets just say that the
> dice were changed) so that Y handled N and X handled M, most people would
> still insist that that is what is natural. It's not that there needs to
> be difference, it's that people think there needs to be difference.

In many cases, yes; but there are some occasions where different mechanics
don't match up as well when the abilities are switched around (that
doesn't mean that they don't match up at all; just that something gets
lost when you make the switch).

> > I was agreeing that you couldn't change Hero to accomodate that
> > perspective without it ceasing to be Hero.
>
> Right. Or any "universal" system, for that matter. For the most
> part, anyway.

It all depends on how fragmented the rules get: AD&D is not a universal
system by any stretch of the imagination; OTOH, GURPS fits my concept of
universal, even though it has different systems for superpowers, psionics,
cybernetics, robotics, and magic (and it has two very different systems of
magic, one of which has a large number of variations).

Also note that Hero is doing a similar thing, to a limited degree; martial
arts _could_ be described in terms of superpowers and combat skill levels,
or they could be described as a series of maneuvers - two totally
different mechanics for the same thing. Vehicles could be treated as
superpowers purchased through a vehicular focus, or they could be treated
according to the vehicles rules given in H4. Robots could be purchased as
normal characters, or as Automatons. Equipment could be purchased with
the Independent limitation or with "equipment points" as detailed in Dark
Justice and Eye for an Eye. A "single set of mechanics" version of Hero
is, I believe, undesirable (and quite possibly impossible), although Hero
does manage a greater economy of rules while remaining playable than any
other system on the market.

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 20:39:31 -0800
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On Monday, February 02, 1998 6:17 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
>
>>> It is a legacy of the second edition of the game.
>
>TRG> And a Throw that was considered defensive, could be aborted to,
>TRG> and did damage was a legacy of the third edition of the game.
>
>TRG> What's your point?
>
>Simply that certain aspects of the system that came down from earlier
>editions were not changed to fit into the fourth edition mold.
>
Or they fit perfectly, and your idea of what the "fourth edition mold"
is is mistaken.

Filksinger

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 22:44:29 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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> > From what I've seen of the Alpha version I have, yes. It handles
> > non-Super environs quite well, but adds a lot for the Super genre.
>
> But how's it presented? "This is a book for creating vehicles for a
> superhero genre; oh, and BTW it's useful in other genres as well" would be
> the wrong way...


Why? For certain concepts, playing up the Superheroic aspects
makes a lot of sense. For example, the previous three ultimates. All
concentrated on Superheroic concepts. TUMA was the most generic, because
its topic was the most generic.



-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:13:34 -0800
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On Tuesday, February 03, 1998 6:21 AM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "JaRP" == John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> writes:
>
>>> If it does not have a specific exception then it is *NOT* the
rule, no
>>> matter how much you wish it so.
>
>JaRP> Get real, Rat, we're operating in a grey area and we should
both know
>JaRP> it. Missile Reflection is a quite agressive power that is
still
>JaRP> classified as a defensive power - you can even Abort to it.
>
>And the power *SPECIFICALLY* states that in its description. There
is


The Block *SPECIFICALLY* states in its description that it goes first,
with no mention of Abort giving it that ability. Additionally,
maneuvers you can Abort to are described as not going first. The
ability to go first is built into the specific descriptions, not the
Abort feature.

>nothing at all grey about it. It is an exception, not a precident.

According to whom?

No, let me guess. Its "obvious", and there is something wrong with
everyone who doesn't agree.

Filksinger

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 00:24:36 -0500
Subject: Re:The Horrors of Hero
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-3,6-8,14-15,26-27,31
From: istorema@juno.com (Bruce A Crow)
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Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes:
>>Hero people don't talk about genre, roleplay, and creative fiction.
They talk numbers.<<
Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> writes:
>>Very good point ! I subscribe to the list mainly for plot ideas,
character ideas, and the like. Stuff that should be system transparent.
However, as Brian
points out, most of the discussion is rules/mechanics-oriented.<<

I also subscribe to this list for plot ideas, etc.... I even go as far as
to not read threads (gasp) that are primarily game mechanics. There are
days when I log on only to empty my inbox without reading a single post.
But then there are other days my wife can't get me away from this machine
(figuratively speaking, of course) because I have so much good stuff to
read.

As for Hero Lite, I sort of use a lite version in the games I run (If any
of my players see this I'm dead). I'm no rule expert, but my players like
my games anyway. I create monsters on the fly all the time, with BODY,
STUN, OCV/DCV, and a couple of powers. I haven't completely written up
more than three monsters since I started playing. The players never know
the difference (I think). The monsters are mostly plot devices anyway.
Most NPCs the sameway. I've never liked how the game mechanics slowed
down play so I ignore most of it. I use it for character creation. When I
get in a jam, our resident rules lawer is more than willing to explain
the mechanics. Beyond that, we just play. And what is it like? Imagine a
PBeM only in person. Far more storyline, less rules.

I play Fantasy Hero moslyt, and find the character creation to be quick
and easy until you get to the magic part. I guess that would be easy if I
used the pre written spells and colleges, but I don't care for them
either.

_____________________________________________________________________
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Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 23:42:07 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Ideas
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At 11:57 AM 2/3/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi,
> I'm trying to come up with a few characters built on a 100 + 150
>point base for a Film Noir campagin with a few occult elements thrown into
>the mix. Many of them are Noir/Pulp based.
> I'm encountering some difficulty find appropiate abilites, stuck
>as to how I should limit the supernatural abilities of a player. For
example,
>I would think a character who was cursed to be a werewolf would be an
>appropiate character concept. However, in the way I am envisioning the
genre,
>he would have absolutely no control over his transformations and it would be
>more of a hinderance than a power.

I'm a big fan of certain pulp and old time radio characters, notably The
Shadow, Doc Savage, the Green Hornet and the Avenger. I gather the
campaign you want to run is of the "weird mystery" variety, rather than
what I usually think of as straighht film noir. A number of the lesser
mystery men in pulps, radio and Golden Age comics had one or two gadgets,
or one unusual (possibly mystical) gimmick at his disposal. The radio
version of the Shadow (which was *very* different from the pulp version)
had the power to "cloud men's minds" (Invisibility), his Contact with
Police Commissioner Weston and nothing else to speak of. The Sandman
carries a gun that releases a non-lethal gas which makes his victims sleepy
and suggestible. Doc Savage had Enhanced Senses and a range of Talents
(plus a great Base, Vehicles galore, and Money) but no mystical or super
powers. Very often the characters who did have some sort of mystical
(almost always Oriental) "powers" were otherwise ordinary guys who had come
into possession of a magic artifact (talisman, ring, lantern, jewel, wand)
that had a limited range of functions, sometimes just one ability.
Truthfully, most of the weird mystery was in the villians, rather than the
heroes.

It was a simpler time. Even Superman, in his 1938 first appearance, didn't
have Flight, just Superleap. If I were doing a pulp-based campaign, I'd
run Heroic rather than Superheroic, but regardless of what point level you
use, I think one key is limiting the number of different things each
character can do. Think in terms of an archetype (wealthy man about town,
hard-boiled detective, whatever) with a single gimmick. In a way, this
reminds me of all the police/detective shows that flooded TV during the
mid-70's. They were all alike except for that one identifying
characteristic: you had the fat detective (Cannon), the handicapped
detective (Ironside), the blind detective (Longstreet), the old detective
(Barnaby Jones), the forensic detective (Quincy), the Polish-American
detective (Banacek), the slovenly detective (Columbo), the ex-con detective
(Rockford), the lady cop (Police Woman). Baretta, Toma, Mannix...anyone
else remember others?

Damon



------------------------
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents.
-- H.P. Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

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Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 23:57:22 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

>
> > > From what I've seen of the Alpha version I have, yes. It handles
> > > non-Super environs quite well, but adds a lot for the Super genre.
> >
> > But how's it presented? "This is a book for creating vehicles for a
> > superhero genre; oh, and BTW it's useful in other genres as well" would be
> > the wrong way...
>
>
> Why? For certain concepts, playing up the Superheroic aspects
> makes a lot of sense. For example, the previous three ultimates. All
> concentrated on Superheroic concepts. TUMA was the most generic, because
> its topic was the most generic.

I can't comment on TUSM, never having seen it; but I consider the other
two to be examples of supplements that _don't_ focus on superheroes; the
superhero genre seems to get, if anything, just a little more emphasis
than other genres do. (OTOH, the very title of TUSM has turned a couple
of people I know away from it; "Super Mages? As in superheroes? No
thanks...)

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 00:18:11 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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> > Why? For certain concepts, playing up the Superheroic aspects
> > makes a lot of sense. For example, the previous three ultimates. All
> > concentrated on Superheroic concepts. TUMA was the most generic, because
> > its topic was the most generic.
>
> I can't comment on TUSM, never having seen it; but I consider the other
> two to be examples of supplements that _don't_ focus on superheroes; the
> superhero genre seems to get, if anything, just a little more emphasis

I don't know. TUM was pretty Super-specific, but only because the
most popular place for Egoists is Super-level games. It didn't ignore the
other genres, however. There's enough there for me to work with.

TUMA is more all-around because the Martial Art rules are
applicible *everywhere*.

> than other genres do. (OTOH, the very title of TUSM has turned a couple
> of people I know away from it; "Super Mages? As in superheroes? No
> thanks...)


And it does concentrate on _Super_mages. Ala Doc Strange. It
pointed out the ways magic of the Supermages usually differs from Fantasy
or Horror-type magical campaigns. The feel is different than that in
Mystic Masters. The book does cover some more heroic-genres, but it
assumes a Super-feel for most.

It works very well as a coherent suppliment for a genre, however.



-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 00:19:16 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: mlnunn@blue.net
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: More Buffy notes
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At 09:31 PM 2/3/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> Just to add my two cent's worth. I just rewatched the eposode, the gun
had two
>> barrels. So I can see her being fairly strong, but not a 25 str. That
would let
>> her left 1760lbs. Just a bit much. I think about a str of 17-18, that
would let
>> her left around 600lbs. just a thought.

> This gets back to the previous discussion of just what the lifting
>weight signifies, but going by the damage to the steel and the superleap,
>the only two indicators we really have, 25-30 is more appropriate.

I agree I almost gave her 30 but figured it would be a bit much for lifting.
Although I have seen her lift thiings I wouldn't want to try. And she could
have superleap, but not very much, she can jump to the roof of a second
story building.
She should have Regneration. Wounds heal "Very, very fast". Buffy should
have missile deflection vs Thrown.
I went with the low PRE and the Def because no Vamp is ever impressed by her
till she kick it's butt. Alternatly the Vamps in Buffys world don't have
really high PRE's either.

Guiles STR should be only 10, and the demon that was hunting him was killed
so I left off the hunted.

Willow, I had a couple of people point out that Willow is very shy. OK but
I don't think she is shy enough to warent a disad, she does hang out with
Buffy after all that would make most girls a little self consious.

Xander, could have all the skills of a US Infantry soldier. I had forgotten
but he retined all the knoledge he got when he was turned in to a soldier.

Thanks for all the nice comments and sugestions.

Michael
Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist our seldom updated web site...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm

"You have never lived until you have almost died.
And for those who fight for it,
life has a flavor the protected never know"
- anonymous

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: TUMA Maneuvers]
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 23:06:22 -0800
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On Monday, February 02, 1998 6:09 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
>F> Since in real life aggressive activity is classified as
"defensive" on a
>F> regular basis, I assume you must be talking about the game. Fine.
Show
>F> me where, in the game, it states that defensive maneuvers cannot
be
>F> offensive in any way,
>
>Pardon me for being a smartass about this one, but the BBB does not
need to
>define "offensive" and "defensive". Anyone with *any* comprehension
of
>English will find the two to have diametrically opposed meanings
without
>the necessity of reprinting half of Webster's New World Dictionary.
>

Now I don't have "*any* comprehension of the English language", unless
I agree with you?


I'm getting a bit tired of being insulted, Believing that you are so
absolutely right that there is something wrong with those who disagree
is bad enough, insulting them in the bargain is overboard.

Please keep this discussion civil.

Filksinger

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 01:14:07 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: More Buffy notes
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> I agree I almost gave her 30 but figured it would be a bit much for lifting.
> Although I have seen her lift thiings I wouldn't want to try. And she could
> have superleap, but not very much, she can jump to the roof of a second
> story building.

That's 3-4 hexes up, equivilent to 6-8 hexes forward. The lower
end will allow for a 30 STR.



-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 23:23:23 -0800
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On Tuesday, February 03, 1998 6:20 PM, John Desmarais wrote:


>On Tue, 3 Feb 1998 07:02:52 -0800, Tanja Nasset wrote:
>
<snip>
>>
>>If you don't use them, expect math errors in characters. Unless, of
>>course, you are extra careful _and_ you do all the characters
>>yourself.
>
>Why should I expect math errors? It's all extremely simple math -
stuff people should
>have learned in elementary school.
>
Certainly. And as anyone who has ever taken an accounting class can
tell you, even very simple math eventually produces errors, especially
when tallying columns of numbers.

I regularly do long division in my head. I am quite capable of doing
the Hero calculations the same way. However, sooner or later, I will
goof, even with pencil and paper.

I'll stick with my Excel sheet, thank you. Even if I was perfect, I'd
still prefer the speed.

Filksinger

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 23:25:58 -0800
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On Tuesday, February 03, 1998 6:43 PM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:


<snip>
> OK. Let's discuss the Block+Grab maneuver, using the rules in
>TUMA.
>
> Obviously a block base (allowing it to go first, be quiet, Rat, we
>know your view on this -- we'll go with what everyone else says).
Add
>the Grab element. No problem.
>
> Now, as this is a defensive maneuver, what Block options can be
>allowed. On the same segment of the Block and Grab, what can the
>character do, if anything. I'd be in favor of holding only, limiting
the
>maneuver by not allowing redirect, throw, or crush. Anyone else?
>
Agreed. While not strictly forbidden, anything beyond the ability to
hold would go against the precedent set by Steve Long.

Filksinger

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Ideas
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 23:31:43 -0800
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On Tuesday, February 03, 1998 9:21 PM, Michael (Damon) or Peni R.
Griffin wrote:


<snip>
> Doc Savage had Enhanced Senses and a range of Talents
>(plus a great Base, Vehicles galore, and Money) but no mystical or
super
>powers.

Doc Savage had superhuman strength, I believe, but not on a brick
level.

Filksinger

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: GenCon decisions by game companies
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 2:06:05 CST
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Steve Jackson Games just announced in their Daily Illuminator that
they won't be at GenCon this year, and the reasons why. Wondering
if Gold Rush, Hero or R. Talsorian have been looking at this situation,
and if they might take the same route?

This thing smells like the TSR/GAMA break revived for the 90s...


DonM.
--
=========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems (217) 239-8365 =
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= Winter War XXV Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 6-8, 1998 =
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 03:11:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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Subject: Re: GenCon decisions by game companies
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On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Don McKinney wrote:

> Steve Jackson Games just announced in their Daily Illuminator that
> they won't be at GenCon this year, and the reasons why. Wondering
> if Gold Rush, Hero or R. Talsorian have been looking at this situation,
> and if they might take the same route?
>
> This thing smells like the TSR/GAMA break revived for the 90s...

Weird, what reasons did they give? I'm curious now.

TokyoMark

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 02:50:59 -0600 (CST)
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Subject: Re: GenCon decisions by game companies
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> Steve Jackson Games just announced in their Daily Illuminator that
>> they won't be at GenCon this year, and the reasons why. Wondering
>> if Gold Rush, Hero or R. Talsorian have been looking at this situation,
>> and if they might take the same route?
>>
>> This thing smells like the TSR/GAMA break revived for the 90s...
>
>Weird, what reasons did they give? I'm curious now.
>
>TokyoMark

Here is what was on the SJG home page...

February 4, 1998: We're Skipping GenCon

SJ Games will not be attending, or supporting any events, at this year's
WotC GenCon. Other companies which have announced that they will not be
going to GenCon this year include Palladium, R. Talsorian Games, and RPGnet.

This decision was not a casual one for us, or for those of our colleagues
who have reached the same conclusion. For us, it was reached only after long
discussions on a mailing list which included representatives of both Andon
(the WotC subsidiary that now runs GenCon) and WotC itself, as well as many
other companies.

The main difficulty had to do with WotC's pricing policies. GenCon booths,
already very costly, went up again this year. Some prices increased more
than 50%! WotC representatives insisted that GenCon was a bargain, compared
to the things they wanted to compare it to . . . and recommended that we all
just consider it a necessary expense, taking fewer booths if necessary.
And in fact, many companies are decreasing their presence without dropping
out -- at least, not this year.

In the end, though, several companies have already concluded that it's no
longer worth our time to go to GenCon at all.

Within the next week or so, we'll be posting a web page that discusses this
decision in more detail, lists any other companies that have dropped out,
and talks about possible alternatives for this and later years. (One hint:
the World Science Fiction Convention, in Baltimore this year, is the same
weekend as GenCon. Guess where we'll be?)

We have been unsubtly warned by WotC employees that any company that doesn't
come to
GenCon will be seen by the gamers to be on its last legs. All these
companies need for the word to get out: we're staying away because we chose
to, not because we're dead.

We've also been formally *requested* to sponsor events even if we don't
attend, because the convention's gamemasters (and by extension, all the
gamers)s "aren't aware and shouldn't be aware of [the] "business" side of
this industry. But we can't accede to that request. We will NOT we WILL
tell you why. Much as WotC might like to have its
business practices remain unexamined, we feel that the state of the hobby is
everybody's business. So . . . sorry, we'll have more to say about this.
-- Steve Jackson

Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist our seldom updated web site...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm

"You have never lived until you have almost died.
And for those who fight for it,
life has a flavor the protected never know"
- anonymous

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 08:59:52 +0000
From: Stephen McGinness <smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk>
Organization: Camborne School of Mines
Subject: Re: Hero Templates
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Brian Wong wrote:
> Do we want to sit down and start doing 'Templates'?

Well, it could be useful, but it's a real can of
worms thing. Everyone would have to remember that
it was being done to make it easy to make cookie
cutter heroes for newcomers to the game that would
allow them to play the game almost immediately
with something they felt was theirs....

> If so, we'd need to break it down by the major genre's as well.

I think the heroic stuff isn't too bad. A
character quickly uses up the points there and teh
package deals are a good way of getting an initial
flavour. The superhero stuff though.....

The construction of superpowers is where it really
"does" get confusing for people. So what genres of
superhero game do we know of. Off the top of my
head I have played in a mentalist campaign, lots
of four colour, a Dark Champions, a super-agent
type thing, and that's it. Do we need different
stuff for each of these??

> A system to use might be where a combination of template,
> package deals, and about 50 points will result in a completed character.

Yup. Let em pick up a 125 point base character,
add in a few plug and play options, customise it
around the edges with the other 50 points and off
you go!

> Package deals needed would be proffession and species.
>
> What else is needed?

I think a list of power packages e.g., what are
the usual advantages limitations etc given to fire
powers, or ice powers, etc etc.


> Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.


Stephen

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: ErolB1@aol.com
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 07:23:58 EST
Subject: Simplifying Hero
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In the "Horrors of Hero" thread I gave an opinion that the HERO system really
couldn't be simplified to produce a "Beginners Hero." But on further thought
I've come up with three simplifications that I wouldn't mind seeing in 5th Ed
- not just for beginners, but for everyone.

1. Get rid of the "figured" aspect of "Figured Characteristics." Characters
will be simplier to build if one doesn't have to grind through calculations to
figure DEF and REC and END and STUN. And it will be much simplier if no
minimaxing of figured vs primary Characteristics is possible.

2. Combine PD and ED into a single DEF Characteristic. This is already done
for inanimate objects, and most characters are already built with equal PD and
ED scores anyway.

3. Combine STUN and END into a single "Reserve" Characteristic, against which
both END costs and STUN damage is marked. The two are already linked (sorry)
in the current rules, and combining the two will simplify bookkeeping during
play, where simplification counts most.

Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 12:59:02 +0000
From: Stephen McGinness <smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk>
Organization: Camborne School of Mines
Subject: Re: Simplifying Hero
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ErolB1@com.aol wrote of the things he woulf like
to see in a new edition which would simplify the
game. The simplifications were mainly to help
reduce the upfront calculations of the character
generation and to help speed up combat during
play.

I agree these are areas where simplification would
be noticed, but I prefer to keep the more detailed
versions for my experienced players who whip
through the book-keeping due to many years
practice.

The length of combats is a real worry and for a
beginning GM they can either be damned short or
never ending depending on how well the initial
limits etc were set. That is, if the attacks
overpower the defences by too much then the fights
do tend to be over _very_ quickly regardless of
the book-keeping!!

I would like to see some kind of section for the
GM which would give a few hints and useful tips on
how to guage these nebulous issues, how to do some
quick calculations that will show how many turns a
fight may last. Would that be useful to other
people?? I find I do it for every new character I
design for my campaign, and I test other peoples
as well.


If you can estimate the game length of a combat it
is usually a simple matter to convert that to real
time.


Stephen

Stephen

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: SteveL1979@aol.com
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 08:21:39 EST
Subject: Re: GenCon decisions by game companies
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In a message dated 98-02-04 03:09:35 EST, dmckinne@cmi.csc.com writes:

<< Wondering if Gold Rush, Hero or R. Talsorian have been looking at this
situation,
and if they might take the same route? >>

R. Talsorian and Palladium have already announced that they will NOT be
attending. Hero has already said, though not publicly, that it will be.

Steve Long

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 07:32:08 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Ideas
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><snip>
>> Doc Savage had Enhanced Senses and a range of Talents
>>(plus a great Base, Vehicles galore, and Money) but no mystical or
>super
>>powers.
>
>Doc Savage had superhuman strength, I believe, but not on a brick
>level.

This is open for debate. Over the course of 180+ adventures, Doc's
abilities -- and even things like his height and weight -- were reported
differently. There is some evidence to suggest that his reputed abilities
were exaggerated in the telling of the earlier tales, some of which I think
had him knocking out a shark with a punch to the nose, kncoking out a polar
bear with his fists and then tearing out steaks with his bare hands, and
righting an overturned car using only his hands (well, arms, legs and back,
obvuously, but no tools).

Chiefly, he was supposed to have gotten his abilities from two hours of
daily exercises of all sorts, designed to challenge his senses and mind as
well as his strength. If you assume the earlier description to be artistic
license (as Doc himself suggested in "No Light to Die By" when he said of
his chronicler "That chap certainly has a lot of imagination.") then you
can build Doc without excessive STR or Superleap. The early parameters
might require both.

Damon

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 06:04:50 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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At 09:16 PM 2/3/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> > Why? The suppliments that don't spend a significant portion of
>> >their space on Superheroics I personally usually don't buy. I'd love to
>> >buy them all, but as I play Champions the most, that is what I support the
>> >most.
>>
>> The funny thing is, if I've done The Ultimate Super Vehicle the way I
>> hope it was done, it should make you *both* happy. (At least, on this
>> count.)
>
> From what I've seen of the Alpha version I have, yes. It handles
>non-Super environs quite well, but adds a lot for the Super genre.

I'm glad to hear it.
Of course, it's probably still a tad weak where fantasy "vehicles" are
concerned, but I have a few fix ideas for that which should be in the final
draft.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm


Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: GenCon decisions by game companies
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 06:18:39 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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I have to say that were I a publisher myself, I would take
this same move.
Before WoTC does to us in America what GW did to hobbyists in the UK
we need to get together as both fans and publishers and be proactive on the
issue.
I think SJG's decision to move to a general Scfi Fi convention is a
good one. And one with a potentially vey good side effect. It could very well
serve as a boost to the hobby if we did this en mass.
Of course, I have no idea what it's costing SJG to make that move, so
I have no idea how able smaller companies will be to follow suit. But I'm
sure this will be a hot topic at this years Dundracon (the big SF Bay Area
con of the year, coming up Valentine's weekend).

Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 06:37:34 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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At 09:29 PM 2/3/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> > Why? The suppliments that don't spend a significant portion of
>> > their space on Superheroics I personally usually don't buy. I'd love to
>> > buy them all, but as I play Champions the most, that is what I support
the
>> > most.
>>
>> But they are also the ones that contribute the most to Hero's rep as being
>> a superhero game, rather than a universal system.
>
> Fine. But the solution is not to handicap the flagship.
>Especially a flagship as good as Champions. Just add some more support
>ships. Get Star Hero going again. Release more for Fantasy Hero.
>Release a suppliment or two for Ninja Hero and Western Hero. Release a
>Vampire Hunters suppliment for Horror Hero.

Perhaps something that can be done along these lines would be some
supplements that could be used with Champions, but which have the kind of
emphasis that could be easily reworked into heroic-level stuff. A second
edition of Super Agents could be a boon to this, since a good-guy agency
could fight against villainous agencies such as VIPER, COIL, etc., just as
well as superheroes can.
Something I've been toying with is a sort of "Stellar Empires" book,
which would detail the two alien races I have in TUSV (don't panic, Alpha
testers; I added the second as a last-minute thing), the Varanyi from TUM,
the Psychophants and Beduuns from Pyramid In the Sky, and several races
from Alien Enemies, along with probably about an equal number of original
peoples. Each would have stats for a "typical warrior" and a "typical
commander," a Racial Package Deal for PC aliens, occasional alien Martial
Arts packages, plus the starships, weapons, and other gadgets typically
used by each. Such a book could be used in spacefaring Champions campaigns
(or the aliens could come to us), or in Star Hero campaigns. (Hey, Mark --
what do you think of this idea?)
Similarly, someone could put together a sort of "martial arts enemies"
book that would be equally useful in Dark Champions or Ninja Hero. And
that Vampire Hunters book would be a good DC/HH crossover. (One of the
weaknesses of Creatures of the Night: Horror Enemies is that it presents
little of use for Horror Hero, though I don't recall offhand which of the
two books came out first.)
As each of these books is marketed, its usability in the non-superhero
genre would need to be emphasized, at times to the point that "also
compatible with Champions" is all that's said about superheroes. The
covers would need to not just reflect the books' usability with other
genres, but emphasize it. TUMA is an excellent example of this latter
point; Storn's picture brings to my mind not your typical superheroic
martial artist, but something more along the lines of a "Wild Martial Arts"
campaign (what with the glowing swords and all).
Now, the real problem is, who's going to *write* all these books? Steve
Long and I are both relatively prolific, but we can only do so much and we
have our next several projects already planned. From what I've seen of
Michael Surbrook's work, I'd trust him with that "martial arts enemies"
book, though he has Wuxia Hero to work on after he's finished with Kazei 5.
Please, folks, if you think you can write a halway decent supplement,
give it a shot. Get a start in a fanzine or (as I did) start a website to
get some practice, look at what's been successful so far, and put something
together. If nothing else, the experience will give you an idea of what
it's like for us. (I'd really like to see Stainless Steel Rat put together
his own Ultimate book, just to see what kind of thought is needed for
that.) If you don't have such confidence in your writing, well, maybe just
thinking about it you'll begin to see the problem.
Of course, that's not the *only* possible solution. When I asked for
suggestions regarding my VOICE sourcebook, someone pointed out that VOICE,
unlike most other Champions Universe organizations, has been around for
quite a long time, and could be fitting for Western, Pulp, and Golden Age
settings; I'll be giving tips on using VOICE in these settings, as well as
in futuristic settings. (I really like the idea of using Lung Hung as the
mastermind of a Chinese criminal organization in a Western Hero game
similar to Wild Wild West or The Adventures of Brisco County Jr.) I also
have an expanded emphasis in The Ultimate Super Vehicle that will cover a
variety of science-fiction settings, and enough material to make the book
useful in super-spy and even fantasy games. Northwest Champions will have
a view to provide useful material for *any* modern-day RPG (even non-Hero
stuff). If more authors take the view that the books need to be useful for
something other than just Champions, then the perspective of Hero as a
system only good for superheroes will be weakened.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm


Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Hero Templates
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 06:37:36 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> The construction of superpowers is where it really
> "does" get confusing for people. So what genres of
> superhero game do we know of. Off the top of my
> head I have played in a mentalist campaign, lots
> of four colour, a Dark Champions, a super-agent
> type thing, and that's it. Do we need different
> stuff for each of these??
>
Yes. Somewhat.
After all, what you play in each is VERY diferent. I think each genre book
should have it's own templates.

> > A system to use might be where a combination of template,
> > package deals, and about 50 points will result in a completed character.
>
> Yup. Let em pick up a 125 point base character,
> add in a few plug and play options, customise it
> around the edges with the other 50 points and off
> you go!
>
> > Package deals needed would be proffession and species.
> >
> > What else is needed?
>
> I think a list of power packages e.g., what are
> the usual advantages limitations etc given to fire
> powers, or ice powers, etc etc.
>

Yeah, what I'm seeing is this:

A system whereby I take a base concept, add 1 to 3 plugins, and then have
from 25 to 50 points left to customize.

The basic package would be stats and a simple powers setup.

The plugins would be mods to this.
Such as taking the brick base and making it either the slow brick, the giant,
the martial brick, the 'made of steel (or other substance) brick, and all
your common brick types.

That handles plugin 1.
The other two plugins would be close to package deals. They would be things
like 'the lawyer', 'the alien', 'the man from nowhere', 'the ex super soilder',
etc... IE, background plugins.

All these bases and plugins would be written in as clear of mechanics
as possible. They would not into deep depth on the character, and might even
be a bit 'low power' for the point level (maybe by 2 DC under or so).

Thus allowing the final 25-50 points to be used to modify it to be
unique.

Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 08:39:21 -0600 (CST)
Subject: The Horrors of Hero?
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> >
> >You do NOT NEED a calculator, let alone a &&)(%^*&% spreadsheet to
> make
> >a character !!!! (I have never understood the appeal of Heromaker).
>
>
> If you don't use them, expect math errors in characters. Unless, of
> course, you are extra careful _and_ you do all the characters
> yourself.
>
> Filksinger
>

I don't expect math errors. I expect my players, as grade school graduates,
to be able to add up a column of numbers. Yes, I will check with a calculator
if I'm in a hurry. But, I won't wait for a calculator to become available
when I'm building characers.

Curt

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 06:41:59 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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At 10:18 PM 2/3/1998 -0600, Dataweaver wrote:
>> > > Why? The suppliments that don't spend a significant portion of
>> > >their space on Superheroics I personally usually don't buy. I'd love to
>> > >buy them all, but as I play Champions the most, that is what I
support the
>> > >most.
>> >
>> > The funny thing is, if I've done The Ultimate Super Vehicle the way I
>> > hope it was done, it should make you *both* happy. (At least, on this
>> > count.)
>>
>> From what I've seen of the Alpha version I have, yes. It handles
>> non-Super environs quite well, but adds a lot for the Super genre.
>
>But how's it presented? "This is a book for creating vehicles for a
>superhero genre; oh, and BTW it's useful in other genres as well" would be
>the wrong way...

Hopefully there will be equal emphasis on science-fiction (giant robots
in particular) and superheroic vehicles. My own way of describing the
range that it covers is, "From the Batmobile to the Zords," though one
could also add, "from Aladdin's flying carpet to the starship Enterprise,
and from the TARDIS to the Death Star."
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm


Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 07:04:24 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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At 09:40 PM 2/3/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>
>> > Oh, quite true. In fact, I've been toying with adding a
>> >Block+Grab maneuver to mirror the effects of neutralizing an incoming
>> >attack by physically restraining the attacker.
>>
>> This would be a very appropriate maneuver for Krav Maga (another martial
>> art that can be appropriate for a low-level brick).
>
> OK. Let's discuss the Block+Grab maneuver, using the rules in
>TUMA.
>
> Obviously a block base (allowing it to go first, be quiet, Rat, we
>know your view on this -- we'll go with what everyone else says). Add
>the Grab element. No problem.
>
> Now, as this is a defensive maneuver, what Block options can be
>allowed. On the same segment of the Block and Grab, what can the
>character do, if anything. I'd be in favor of holding only, limiting the
>maneuver by not allowing redirect, throw, or crush. Anyone else?

That looks to be about it. Assuming Krav Maga (since the two
demonstrations I've seed of it are fairly vivid in my mind, and after all I
brought it up), there are no real throws as such, though one can bear one's
opponent to the ground (mechanically, though not literally, a Throw). In
practice (or, at least, in my own observation), the Block/Grab is usually
followed by a Counterpunch, though if the opponent is armed it can also be
followed by a Takeaway.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm


Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 07:15:49 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 10:44 PM 2/3/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> > From what I've seen of the Alpha version I have, yes. It handles
>> > non-Super environs quite well, but adds a lot for the Super genre.
>>
>> But how's it presented? "This is a book for creating vehicles for a
>> superhero genre; oh, and BTW it's useful in other genres as well" would be
>> the wrong way...
>
> Why? For certain concepts, playing up the Superheroic aspects
>makes a lot of sense. For example, the previous three ultimates. All
>concentrated on Superheroic concepts. TUMA was the most generic, because
>its topic was the most generic.

Actually, I find TUM quite helpful for concepts in sci-fi and pulp
mentalists, and I can see some potential applications for fantasy magicians
whose spells reflect mental powers.
Only TUSM really emphasizes superheroic campaigns specifically -- or so
I understand; I haven't purchased it yet, though I still plan to. If true,
I think this is a major weakness; super-powerful mages do appear in fantasy
fiction, and some "this is how this can be treated in a fantasy campaign"
material would have been helpful. $40 for an Ultimate book (or $20 for one
that I have to print out myself for $25-30 in ink and paper) seems a rather
steep price for something of such narrow utility.
Now, I could see The Ultimate Speedster legitimately having a strong
emphasis on superheroes; I don't know of a lot of other genres where
speedsters show up. I understand that a lot of new and expanded movement
rules are in the book, though, and that can be helpful for sci-fi and
fantasy games.
The Ultimate Brick could address "low-level" bricks in heroic campaigns,
like Fezzik, Worf, or B.A. Baracus.
The Ultimate Shape Changer (or is it Shape Shifter? It keeps switching)
would certainly have a lot to contribute to science-fiction and fantasy.
Vampires and werewolves are, after all, your basic shape changer, and a
player with an Odo-like character in a science-fiction setting would need a
book like this.
If The Ultimate Powered Armor had come out when it was originally
scheduled (before TUMA), it *might* have gotten away with a supers-only
emphasis, but these days I think there's enough battlesuits in straight
science-fiction that something would have to be addressed along those
lines. And with a little imagination, one could have a "symbiotic
creature" that functions like a battlesuit.
There are other Ultimate books in the works, but this should give a
basic idea of what can be done. When I was putting together TUSV, I went
through the entire book (the manuscript I'd already halfway prepared for
The Ultimate Giant Robot) and asked myself, "What can be done here in other
genres?" I had a pretty good idea as far as giant robots and various types
of superheroes, and didn't have much problem with space opera, but fantasy?
Westerns? Super-spies? Historic vessels? Actual World War II ships and
aircraft? (This last one only occurred to me just now -- darn it, that's
even more to add.) Just about every aspect of the book had to be
reexamined so at least some consideration was given to these other genres.
>From the feedback I've gotten, I've been at least somewhat successful.
The point has been made that Hero is perceived as a "superheroes" game,
and that trying to play any other genre using it will make that game look
superhero-ish, this being one of the barriers to bringing in new players.
If we make the point strongly enough by loudly (but politely, always
politely) marketing the non-superheroic applications of the system, maybe
we can break that.
I don't know what can be done about the math problem, but hopefully if
we get enough pre-made powers and equipment in Ultimate books and other
sourcebooks (especially campaign books like Michael Surbrook's Kazei 5)
maybe at least some of that can be alleviated.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm


Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 09:21:32 -0600
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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True, one does not NEED a calculator, but I do not enjoy the process of arithmetic by hand, and electronic means are far quicker and more accurate than I am. It takes me several times longer to tweak a character by hand than it does in Heromaker. I can't wait for Creation Workshop to come out with its Champions module (which they should have done first, IMO.
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 2/4/98, at 8:39 AM, Curt Hicks wrote:

>> >
>> >You do NOT NEED a calculator, let alone a &&)(%^*&% spreadsheet to
>> make
>> >a character !!!! (I have never understood the appeal of Heromaker).
>>
>>
>> If you don't use them, expect math errors in characters. Unless, of
>> course, you are extra careful _and_ you do all the characters
>> yourself.
>>
>> Filksinger
>>
>
>I don't expect math errors. I expect my players, as grade school graduates,
>to be able to add up a column of numbers. Yes, I will check with a calculator
>if I'm in a hurry. But, I won't wait for a calculator to become available
>when I'm building characers.
>
>Curt

Common problems need Uncommon Solutions!
http://www.uncommonsolutions.com

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: SteveL1979@aol.com
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:36:05 EST
Subject: The Great Linked Debate
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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In reviewing my notes in preparation for meetings in San Francisco next
week, I found I do not have a concise, thorough summary of the Great Linked
Debate. The list FAQ touches on the subject, but only briefly.
Is there, or does anyone have, a thorough review of the debate, including
all of the basic points/questions/concerns and the arguments made pro/con
about each point? If so, I would appreciate receiving a copy or an URL.

Thanx,

Steve Long


Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 07:41:12 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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See, here we go again. Even a subject on how to make Hero
more understandable has degraded into math and/or mechanics debates. In this
case, math.

Maybe we should put forth a proposal that all messages to the list
have one of [genre],[rules],[math],[uselessjunk],[characters], or
whatever in the subject line so I can simply thread some of this junk into
my trash folder and get on to reading the parts I enjoy.


> > >
> > >You do NOT NEED a calculator, let alone a &&)(%^*&% spreadsheet to
> > make
> > >a character !!!! (I have never understood the appeal of Heromaker).
> >
> > If you don't use them, expect math errors in characters. Unless, of
> > course, you are extra careful _and_ you do all the characters
> > yourself.
> >
> > Filksinger
> >
>
> I don't expect math errors. I expect my players, as grade school graduates,
> to be able to add up a column of numbers. Yes, I will check with a calculator
> if I'm in a hurry. But, I won't wait for a calculator to become available
> when I'm building characers.
>

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "Trimarco, Robert" <robert.trimarco@gs.com>
Subject: a question about deflection
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:08:43 -0500
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What is the standard ruling on deflecting Area Effect attacks
and Explosions? Does it depend on the special effect? A grenade can be
batted away and made to explode elsewhere but what about a cone of
energy? does the Captain Deflection just deflect his hex-worth of the
blast as he watches the orphanage he was sworn to protect become a sea
of superheated matter or does Dr. Vaporization get frustrated as his
blast is sent harmlessly into the sky?

Or does Captain Deflection have a useless power and have to dive
for cover until he saves up experience points and slaps on the area
effect advantage on his deflection abilities? Does this also apply to
reflection as well?

Thanks Oh Guru's of Champions Lore...

Rob


Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: The Great Linked Debate (WARNING)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 08:23:53 -0800 (PST)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 45

> In reviewing my notes in preparation for meetings in San Francisco next
> week, I found I do not have a concise, thorough summary of the Great Linked
> Debate. The list FAQ touches on the subject, but only briefly.
> Is there, or does anyone have, a thorough review of the debate, including
> all of the basic points/questions/concerns and the arguments made pro/con
> about each point? If so, I would appreciate receiving a copy or an URL.
>

To whoever responds to this, PLEASE DO IT PRIVATLY AND NOT TO THE
LIST !!!

I don't want to burn out another keyboard hitting the delete key
to much again. :)

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 16:24:35
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

Rook wrote:
> > Incidentally, there is no advantage
> > which allows deflecting area effects; area effect on deflection will not do
> > this.
> >
> This then raises the question, for 5th edition:
>
> Should there be one? If there was, what's a special effect that would
> warrent it?
>
I think there should be one.

A proper special effect-- Gateman. Gateman creates XDM gates for his power. A gate big enough to protect an entire area, which shunts all energies that hit it into another dimension, thus protecting the people behind it.

Filksinger


____________________________________________________________________
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 17:01:02 +0000
From: Stephen McGinness <smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk>
Organization: Camborne School of Mines
Subject: Re: Hero Templates
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Brian Wong wrote:
> Yeah, what I'm seeing is this:
>
> A system whereby I take a base concept, add 1 to 3 plugins, and then have
> from 25 to 50 points left to customize.

I can go for that. It would give enough variety to
begin with....

> The basic package would be stats and a simple powers setup.

Yup.

> The plugins would be mods to this.
> Such as taking the brick base and making it either the slow brick, the giant,
> the martial brick, the 'made of steel (or other substance) brick, and all
> your common brick types.
>
> That handles plugin 1.

OK. 'Cept we still haven't got anyone volunteering
to write the suckers! :-)

> The other two plugins would be close to package deals. They would be things
> like 'the lawyer', 'the alien', 'the man from nowhere', 'the ex super soilder',
> etc... IE, background plugins.

That could work...

> All these bases and plugins would be written in as clear of mechanics
> as possible. They would not into deep depth on the character, and might even
> be a bit 'low power' for the point level (maybe by 2 DC under or so).

Just enough to allow the player to know what they
are. The GM should have a sheet that tells him
mechanics that could be invisible to the player
and the game.

> Thus allowing the final 25-50 points to be used to modify it to be
> unique.

Which is of course the only way us RPG types like
to play our characters. Unique.


Stephen


PS: Are you volunteering for a bit of writing??
:-) I am busy at the moment changing jobs and soon
to change address. I will volunteer to become
involved in two weeks time.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 09:26:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: a question about deflection
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 48

Trimarco, Robert writes:
>
> What is the standard ruling on deflecting Area Effect attacks
> and Explosions? Does it depend on the special effect? A grenade can be
> batted away and made to explode elsewhere but what about a cone of
> energy? does the Captain Deflection just deflect his hex-worth of the
> blast as he watches the orphanage he was sworn to protect become a sea
> of superheated matter or does Dr. Vaporization get frustrated as his
> blast is sent harmlessly into the sky?

Except under special circumstances, you cannot deflect area effect attacks
(based on special effect, it is sometimes allowed). As such, Captain
Deflection had better dive for cover. Incidentally, there is no advantage
which allows deflecting area effects; area effect on deflection will not do
this.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:36:12 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: a question about deflection
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On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Trimarco, Robert wrote:

> What is the standard ruling on deflecting Area Effect attacks
> and Explosions? Does it depend on the special effect? A grenade can be
> batted away and made to explode elsewhere but what about a cone of
> energy?

I'd say mostly dependant on special effects, but as a rule of thumb, you
should be able to deflect/reflect the attack only from the target hex.
This means that Capt. Deflection would have to be right up on top of Dr.
Vaporization (assuming the attack was bought AE: Cone, No Range) to
actually deflect the energy (which makes pretty logical sense, if you
think about it.)


The Inestimable Dr. Thaddeus V. Nuncheon jeffj@io.com
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Authentication-Warning: bermuda.io.com: traveler owned process doing -bs
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:54:27 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:

> At 10:44 PM 2/3/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> >> > From what I've seen of the Alpha version I have, yes. It handles
> >> > non-Super environs quite well, but adds a lot for the Super genre.
> >>
> >> But how's it presented? "This is a book for creating vehicles for a
> >> superhero genre; oh, and BTW it's useful in other genres as well" would be
> >> the wrong way...
> >
> > Why? For certain concepts, playing up the Superheroic aspects
> >makes a lot of sense. For example, the previous three ultimates. All
> >concentrated on Superheroic concepts. TUMA was the most generic, because
> >its topic was the most generic.
>
> Actually, I find TUM quite helpful for concepts in sci-fi and pulp
> mentalists, and I can see some potential applications for fantasy magicians
> whose spells reflect mental powers.

Interesting side-note: if they ever come out with a revised CyberHero, I'd
like to see them incorporate bits of the "cyberkinetics" from TUM as
netrunning stunts...

> Only TUSM really emphasizes superheroic campaigns specifically -- or so
> I understand; I haven't purchased it yet, though I still plan to. If true,
> I think this is a major weakness; super-powerful mages do appear in fantasy
> fiction, and some "this is how this can be treated in a fantasy campaign"
> material would have been helpful. $40 for an Ultimate book (or $20 for one
> that I have to print out myself for $25-30 in ink and paper) seems a rather
> steep price for something of such narrow utility.

That steep price is, IMHO, a major disadvantage of the Hero Plus line.

> Now, I could see The Ultimate Speedster legitimately having a strong
> emphasis on superheroes; I don't know of a lot of other genres where
> speedsters show up. I understand that a lot of new and expanded movement
> rules are in the book, though, and that can be helpful for sci-fi and
> fantasy games.

I don't know of _any_ other genre where speedsters show up. This would be
one of those "certain concepts" that Tim referred to; I would be
hard-pressed to treat speedsters in a non-genre-specific manner.

> The Ultimate Brick could address "low-level" bricks in heroic campaigns,
> like Fezzik, Worf, or B.A. Baracus.

I'm curious about how they intend to get an entire book about strong guys.
I mean, what is there to include?

> The Ultimate Shape Changer (or is it Shape Shifter? It keeps switching)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
<chuckle>

> would certainly have a lot to contribute to science-fiction and fantasy.
> Vampires and werewolves are, after all, your basic shape changer, and a
> player with an Odo-like character in a science-fiction setting would need a
> book like this.

You could also address other forms of "shapeshifting" - mental
shapeshifting (covered in TUM) would allow you to change your personality
at will, or it could represent a split personality in conjunction with
Accidental Change; or you could use "social shapeshifting" to represent
someone like the title character from "the Saint"...

> If The Ultimate Powered Armor had come out when it was originally
> scheduled (before TUMA), it *might* have gotten away with a supers-only
> emphasis, but these days I think there's enough battlesuits in straight
> science-fiction that something would have to be addressed along those
> lines. And with a little imagination, one could have a "symbiotic
> creature" that functions like a battlesuit.

...and there's the obvious connection to vehicles here; when does Powered
Armor stop being powered armor and start becoming a robot vehicle?

> There are other Ultimate books in the works, but this should give a
> basic idea of what can be done. When I was putting together TUSV, I went
> through the entire book (the manuscript I'd already halfway prepared for
> The Ultimate Giant Robot) and asked myself, "What can be done here in other
> genres?" I had a pretty good idea as far as giant robots and various types
> of superheroes, and didn't have much problem with space opera, but fantasy?
> Westerns? Super-spies? Historic vessels? Actual World War II ships and
> aircraft? (This last one only occurred to me just now -- darn it, that's
> even more to add.) Just about every aspect of the book had to be
> reexamined so at least some consideration was given to these other genres.
> From the feedback I've gotten, I've been at least somewhat successful.

I know I'll be purchasing a copy... Another "genre" to consider would be
alternate technologies - steam-powered giant robots in Victorian England,
or Ether-ships from the late 19th century; a Renaissance-era mechanical
riding beast, powered by an alchemical compound; Flying ships in a fantasy
campaign...

> The point has been made that Hero is perceived as a "superheroes" game,
> and that trying to play any other genre using it will make that game look
> superhero-ish, this being one of the barriers to bringing in new players.
> If we make the point strongly enough by loudly (but politely, always
> politely) marketing the non-superheroic applications of the system, maybe
> we can break that.

Well said!

> I don't know what can be done about the math problem, but hopefully if
> we get enough pre-made powers and equipment in Ultimate books and other
> sourcebooks (especially campaign books like Michael Surbrook's Kazei 5)
> maybe at least some of that can be alleviated.

IMHO, that's about the only way to do it. Optionally, new character
designs could try a bit more to hide the mechanics, by listing
heavily-modified powers (i.e., loaded down with ads and lims) with a new
name:

2d6 Missile Attack (purchased as EB, Seeking, Beam Attack), 6 Charges

instead of

2d6 EB; Seeking, Beam Attack, 6 Charges

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Hero Templates
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 09:58:16 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 50

> Brian Wong wrote:
> > Yeah, what I'm seeing is this:

> > [blah, blah, yak, yak]

> > That handles plugin 1.
>
> OK. 'Cept we still haven't got anyone volunteering
> to write the suckers! :-)
>
> > All these bases and plugins would be written in as clear of mechanics
> > as possible. They would not into deep depth on the character, and might even
> > be a bit 'low power' for the point level (maybe by 2 DC under or so).
> Just enough to allow the player to know what they
> are. The GM should have a sheet that tells him
> mechanics that could be invisible to the player
> and the game.
>
> > unique.
> Which is of course the only way us RPG types like
> to play our characters. Unique.
>
> PS: Are you volunteering for a bit of writing??
> :-) I am busy at the moment changing jobs and soon
> to change address. I will volunteer to become
> involved in two weeks time.

Actualy.

Yes.

Though my methods may not make people here too happy, I'll see aht I
can dig up, then post them somewhere for review (disection), and
approval (the part where I bribe various people).

The reason I'm doing the current debate is I don't hope to do this
work alone, so I thought setting the ground rules of a group project first
would be best.

Or I could just do up one of the templates, and once it's approved,
it could serve as the ground rules via example.
I'd most likely start with energy projector, since it's what I
have loads of, and is one of the real simple ones.
I'd love to do speedster, but I imagine any such attempt will just
revive the recent flame war. :)

Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:09:08 -0800 (PST)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 52

> Incidentally, there is no advantage
> which allows deflecting area effects; area effect on deflection will not do
> this.
>
This then raises the question, for 5th edition:

Should there be one? If there was, what's a special effect that would
warrent it?

Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:29:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 54

Brian Wong writes:

> Should there be one? If there was, what's a special effect that would
> warrent it?

There shouldn't be one; area effects generally don't have a particularly
meaningful OCV (imo missile deflection is mildly broken anyway, and missile
reflection is seriously broken). Use dispel if you want to 'deflect' bombs.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:34:02 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

> Thanks for another useless opinion, Rat. However, I beleive much
> of the discussion is based on deflecting an AE attack intended for
> another. This should be a heavily controlled and expensive ability, but
> there is no reason it should be flat-out disallowed. Now why don't you
> make yourself useful and help to come up with an add-on to the Missile
> Deflection talent for handling AE attacks. How much is it worth? That's
> the main question.

42.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Buffy the Vampire Slayer
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Date: 04 Feb 1998 13:41:22 -0500
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>>>>> "TH" == Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> writes:

TH> Oh, give me a break Rat. Its amazing how far you will go to not have
TH> to admit that you are wrong.

Some people have absolutely no sense of humor, so I might as well point out
that my opinion is based on the character from the movie, and I said as
much at the start. Deal.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
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>>>>> "BW" == Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes:

BW> Should there be one? If there was, what's a special effect that would
BW> warrent it?

No. Missile Defelection is largely an extension of Block, allowing one to
block ranged attacks. As the way to avoid Area of Effect attacks is
neither Block nor Dodge nor any variation thereof, allowing that as an
advantage to Missile Deflection goes well beyond the scope of the power.

If you want to avoid an AoE attack, Dive for Cover.

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Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:53:07 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Hero Templates
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On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, David Fair wrote:

> On 2/4/98 12:58 PM Brian Wong (rook@shell.infinex.com) Said:
>
> >> OK. 'Cept we still haven't got anyone volunteering
> >> to write the suckers! :-)
> >
> >Though my methods may not make people here too happy, I'll see aht I
> >can dig up, then post them somewhere for review (disection), and
> >approval (the part where I bribe various people).
> >
> > The reason I'm doing the current debate is I don't hope to do this
> >work alone, so I thought setting the ground rules of a group project first
> >would be best.
> >
> > Or I could just do up one of the templates, and once it's approved,
> >it could serve as the ground rules via example.
> > I'd most likely start with energy projector, since it's what I
> >have loads of, and is one of the real simple ones.
> > I'd love to do speedster, but I imagine any such attempt will just
> >revive the recent flame war. :)
>
> I'd be happy to a set of "background plugins" with professional skills
> and all that jazz. I have many of these done up as package deals already,
> for new players to use.
>
> How do we want to handle the logistics (i.e. sending/submitting/etc) of
> this?

I vote, if less than 50K, just post to the list. Otherwise, put me on your
e-mail list. Thanks!

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: TUMA Maneuvers
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>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:

F> The Block *SPECIFICALLY* states in its description that it goes first,
F> with no mention of Abort giving it that ability.

Block also specifically states in the BBB that it may be aborted to. TUMA
changes that. The Block basis is no longer exactly like the Block in the
BBB. You cannot use the BBB definition of "Block" anymore, because it is
incorrect within the context of TUMA (for the record, it *is* correct in
the context of Ninja Hero, because NH does not make this change).

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Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 98 14:38:59 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On 2/3/98 7:18 PM Remnant (easleyap@mobis.com) Said:

>My statements are based
>on my opinion that more women like strong men than women who like weak or
>even normal men. Not that those men will necessarily be more impressive in
>general. Simply that they have a feature that has a high tendency to do
>many things, including attracting the opposite sex and being able to be used
>to increase impressiveness above normal in some situations.

this is true, and if the high STR character wants to attract all women
better, he should buy the COM and or PRE needed. If he wants to only
attract those with a muscle fetish, he should leave those stats alone,
and let the target characters fetish disad kick in.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 98 14:38:59 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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To: champ-l@omg.org

>You are thinking in too linear a fashion. I have noticed a PSY LIM of many
>women is: Attracted to strong men.
>
Then that would be on the their sheet, and not on his, n'est pas?

>I am honestly sorry that I started another unimportant argument on this fine
>mailing list.
>
Don't be, it happens far too easily.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:47:23 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Subject: Sample template (very rough draft)
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This is far from perfect (I don't have my rule book with me), but
here's a quick shot at a brick template.

Basic Brick Template

40 STR 30
10 DEX 0
30 CON 40
20 BODY 20
10 INT 0
10 EGO 0
10 PRE 0
10 COM 0
25 PD (8) 17
25 ED (6) 19
3 SPD (20) 10
16 REC (14) 0
60 END (60) 0
60 STUN (55) 0
TOTAL 136

20 Damage Resistance 20/20

Total = 156



PLUG-INS

Big Brick
37 Growth 6 levels, 1/2 END (+30 STR, +3 STUN, +3 BODY)
15 +3 DEX, +1 SPD
Total = 208

Slow Brick
20 +20 STR (+4 PD, +4 REC, +10 STUN)
5 +4 ED
14 Damage Resistance +14PD / +14ED
10 Knockback Resistance 10"
6 Combat Level +3 Punch
6 Combat Level +2 any H-t-H attack
Total = 197

Martial Brick
15 Martial Arts
20 +8 DEX, +2 SPD
15 Combat Levels +3 hand to Hand
Total = 206

Brick-o-Steel (or any other hard substance)
10 +10 STR (+2 PD, +2 REC, +5 STUN)
10 +5 CON (+1 ED, +1 REC, +10 END, +3 STUN)
10 Damage Resistance +10PD / +10ED
10 Knockback Resistance 10"
10 Lack of Weakness
Total = 206



-=>John Desmarais
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:06:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Sample template (very rough draft)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

John Desmarais writes:
> This is far from perfect (I don't have my rule book with me), but
> here's a quick shot at a brick template.
>
> Basic Brick Template
>
> 40 STR 30
> 10 DEX 0
> 30 CON 40
> 20 BODY 20
> 10 INT 0
> 10 EGO 0
> 10 PRE 0
> 10 COM 0
> 25 PD (8) 17
> 25 ED (6) 19
> 3 SPD (20) 10
> 16 REC (14) 0
> 60 END (60) 0
> 60 STUN (55) 0
> TOTAL 136
>
> 20 Damage Resistance 20/20
>
> Total = 156
Hm...that's pretty low-end on strength/dex, high-end on defenses. I'd say a
'basic' brick (which you would probably build up on) would be closer to:
50 STR 40
14 DEX 12
23 CON 26
15 BOD 10
10 INT 0
10 EGO 0
20 PRE 10
10 COM 0
25 PD 15
20 ED 15
4 SPD 12
15 REC 0
46 END 0
52 STN 0
Plus:
10 damage resistance: 12 PD, 8 ED
Total 150 points.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:08:19 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: a question about deflection
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> Except under special circumstances, you cannot deflect area effect attacks
> (based on special effect, it is sometimes allowed). As such, Captain
> Deflection had better dive for cover. Incidentally, there is no advantage
> which allows deflecting area effects; area effect on deflection will not do
> this.


I could possibly see AE on STR allowing this, but there are SFX of
deflection that don't use the physical body. Personally, I'd like to see
some way to modify Missile Deflection in 5th edition to allow for area
effect attacks. Some sort of custom modifier.


-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 20:12:43
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Limitation/AP mods idea
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:03:43 -0600 (CST), Dataweaver wrote:

>On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, qts wrote:
>> >Hmm... there's an example of where the personal immunity is in the active
>> >power. But with many special effects, the personal immunity has nothing to
>> >do with the active power. Like Cyclops, with his personal immunity to his
>> >energy blast... it's not that the blast is more powerful or more complex,
>> >but that his skin can metabolize it. In this case the personal immunity
>> >should not affect the active cost if the player doesn't wish it.
>>
>> It is clearly advantageous for him to be immune, though.
>>
>> Right, I see what you mean and my solution is very simple: just use a
>> Partial Limitation 'Does not count to Active Points when Power is
>> Suppressed, Drained, or Dispelled'. I'd give that a -1/2 Limitation.
>
>At most, -1/4, considering the cost of "Difficult to Dispel".

Remember that this is a *partial* limitation.

qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:13:05 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org



> BW> Should there be one? If there was, what's a special effect that would
> BW> warrent it?
>
> No. Missile Defelection is largely an extension of Block, allowing one to
> block ranged attacks. As the way to avoid Area of Effect attacks is
> neither Block nor Dodge nor any variation thereof, allowing that as an
> advantage to Missile Deflection goes well beyond the scope of the power.
>
> If you want to avoid an AoE attack, Dive for Cover.


Thanks for another useless opinion, Rat. However, I beleive much
of the discussion is based on deflecting an AE attack intended for
another. This should be a heavily controlled and expensive ability, but
there is no reason it should be flat-out disallowed. Now why don't you
make yourself useful and help to come up with an add-on to the Missile
Deflection talent for handling AE attacks. How much is it worth? That's
the main question.


-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:14:19 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org


> > Should there be one? If there was, what's a special effect that would
> > warrent it?
>
> There shouldn't be one; area effects generally don't have a particularly
> meaningful OCV (imo missile deflection is mildly broken anyway, and missile
> reflection is seriously broken). Use dispel if you want to 'deflect' bombs.


A good option. Maybe with a limitation that you take the damage
instead of the area to simulate stopping a large incoming attack.


-Tim Gilberg

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Sample template (very rough draft)
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>>>>> "AJ" == Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> writes:

AJ> Hm...that's pretty low-end on strength/dex, high-end on defenses.

It is a basic template. Look at the custom "packages" to see how those
values are brought up to par for different concepts.

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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Darien Phoenix Lynx\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 20:24:01
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Limitation/AP mods idea
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:42:22 -0600 (CST), Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:

>On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, qts wrote:
>
>> >Hmm... there's an example of where the personal immunity is in the active
>> >power. But with many special effects, the personal immunity has nothing to
>> >do with the active power. Like Cyclops, with his personal immunity to his
>> >energy blast... it's not that the blast is more powerful or more complex,
>> >but that his skin can metabolize it. In this case the personal immunity
>> >should not affect the active cost if the player doesn't wish it.
>>
>> It is clearly advantageous for him to be immune, though.
>>
>> Right, I see what you mean and my solution is very simple: just use a
>> Partial Limitation 'Does not count to Active Points when Power is
>> Suppressed, Drained, or Dispelled'. I'd give that a -1/2 Limitation.
>> qts
>
>That's a good idea. But it doesn't take into account END cost or range. Do
>you think it's an acceptable tradeoff to claim that the reduced END cost
>balances the easier "adjustability" and reduced range?

Certainly, it wouldn't make the Limitation more than -1/2 (and that's
only as a Partial Limitation). Don't forget that RSR and Costs End can
also be Partial Limitations on the rest of the power.

qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Tim R. Gilberg\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 20:24:52
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Limitation/AP mods idea
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:35:15 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

>
>> It is clearly advantageous for him to be immune, though.
>>
>> Right, I see what you mean and my solution is very simple: just use a
>> Partial Limitation 'Does not count to Active Points when Power is
>> Suppressed, Drained, or Dispelled'. I'd give that a -1/2 Limitation.
>
>
> That limitation is only on the advantage, of course.

Yes - it's a Partial Limitation.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Alurmic@aol.com
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:38:19 EST
Subject: DOC'S D&D/V&V AUCTION UPDATE #2
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

The following are the rules of the auction on the listed items.
1. Buyer pays all shipping. After the auction closes out I will contact the
high bidder
and arrange for shipping as they wish.
2. In the event of tie bids the first bidder will be the high bidder for the
item.
3. Updates will be posted every couple of days. The high bidder will be listed
for
each item.
4. Bids will be taken till midnite on the 20th of february.
5. Any questions on any listed item contact me via email for details
6. All checks must clear before shipping, money orders ship next day.
thanks and good luck, here are the items
TSR
1992 TSR TRADING CARD SET- complete boxed set numbering 750 cards. box has
some wear on the outside. cards have only been out of the box once to verify
count. cards are art from forgotten realms, greyhawk, spelljammer, dragonlance
ravenloft and dark sun. much of the art was book and module covers.
HIGH BID- 4.00 BIDDER- ARESANA
X4 MASTER OF THE DESERT NOMADS- adventure for levels 6-9. part one of the
desert nomads set.very good condition, complete never used
HIGH BID- 1.00 BIDDER- ZARBREK
X5 TEMPLE OF DEATH- adventure for levels 6-10. part two of the desert nomads
set. very good condition, complete never used.
HIGH BID- 1.00 BIDDER- ZARBREK
I4 OASIS OF THE WHITE PLAIN- adventure for levels 6-8. second in the desert of
desolation set. excellant condition, complete never used.
HIGH BID- 2.00 BIDDER- RJSLIMON
I5 LOST TOMB OF MARTEK- adventure for levels 7-9. third ands last in the
desert of desolation set. excellant condition, complete never used
HIGH BID-2.00 BIDDER- RJSLIMON
I11 NEEDLE- adventure for levels 8-10. excellant condition, complete never
used
HIGH BID- 2.00 BIDDER-RJSLIMON
S3 EXPEDITION TO BARRIER PEAK- adventure for levels 8-12. fantasy characters
explore a crashed space ship. very good condition, complete used once.
HIGH BID- 2.00 BIDDER- RJSLIMON
CM2 DEATH'S RIDE- adventuire for levels 15-20. excellant condition, complete
never used
HIGH BID- 2.00 BIDDER- RJSLIMON
X1 ISLE OF DREAD- adventure for levels 3-7. very good condition, complete
never used
HIGH BID- 1.00 BIDDER- ZARBREK
SET OF THREE BASIC MODULES B2,B3,B4- adventures for levels 1-3. basic D&D
rules. all are complete, average very good condition
HIGH BID- 1.00 BIDDER- ZARBREK
C2 GHOST TOWN OF INVERNESS- adventure for levels 5-7. excellant condition,
complete never used.
HIGH BID- 2.00 BIDDER- RHUGHES
L1 SECERT OF BONE HILL- adventure for levels 2-4. very good condition,
complete never used.
HIGH BID- 1.00 BIDDER- ZARBREK



VILLAINS AND VIGILANTES
SET OF THREE V+V SUPPLEMENTS- three of the villian listings books:most wanted,
opponents unlimited, super crooks and criminals. all three are in overall good
condition with opponents the worst. some of the cardboard pieces have been cut
out. excellant listing of ideas for any supers game. most of the art by
patrick zircher before he began working for marvel comics
HIGH BID- 4.00 BIDDER- CRAZY
FORCE ADVENTURE MODULE- excellant condition. adventure for heros against a
villan group. art by jeff dee
HIGH BID- 4.00 BIDDER- CRAZY
FROM THE DEEPS OF SPACE- excellant condition. adventure for 2-3 heros in apace
against alien races.
HIGH BID- 4.00 BIDDER-CRAZY
PRE-EMTIVE STRIKE- excellant condition. adventure for 3-4 heros to stop
nuclear war. art by sean knight. in the back is a conversion chart and rules
to go from V+V to champions. this is the only place i know of this is
published.
HIGH BID- 4.00 BIDDER- CRAZY

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Subject: Re: Hero Templates
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 98 15:38:21 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On 2/4/98 12:58 PM Brian Wong (rook@shell.infinex.com) Said:

>> OK. 'Cept we still haven't got anyone volunteering
>> to write the suckers! :-)
>
>Though my methods may not make people here too happy, I'll see aht I
>can dig up, then post them somewhere for review (disection), and
>approval (the part where I bribe various people).
>
> The reason I'm doing the current debate is I don't hope to do this
>work alone, so I thought setting the ground rules of a group project first
>would be best.
>
> Or I could just do up one of the templates, and once it's approved,
>it could serve as the ground rules via example.
> I'd most likely start with energy projector, since it's what I
>have loads of, and is one of the real simple ones.
> I'd love to do speedster, but I imagine any such attempt will just
>revive the recent flame war. :)

I'd be happy to a set of "background plugins" with professional skills
and all that jazz. I have many of these done up as package deals already,
for new players to use.

How do we want to handle the logistics (i.e. sending/submitting/etc) of
this?



David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 20:41:29
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Limitation/AP mods idea
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On Tue, 03 Feb 1998 14:53:14 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:

>At 01:42 PM 2/3/1998 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>>> Right, I see what you mean and my solution is very simple: just use a
>>> Partial Limitation 'Does not count to Active Points when Power is
>>> Suppressed, Drained, or Dispelled'. I'd give that a -1/2 Limitation.
>>> qts
>>
>>That's a good idea. But it doesn't take into account END cost or range. Do
>>you think it's an acceptable tradeoff to claim that the reduced END cost
>>balances the easier "adjustability" and reduced range?
>
> Try this.
> The Limitation, called "Inactive," is -1/4. It can only be bought on an
>Advantage (or, with the GM's permission, an add-on element), and never on a
>base Power. Inactive Advantages do not add to the Power's END cost, range,
>resistance to Adjustment Powers, or other characteristics based on Active
>Points.
> (Personally, I think this may be worth a +1/4 Advantage rather than a
>-1/4 Limitation, but it's bad enough that we already can have Limited
>Advantages without also having Advantaged Advantages.)

This is very neat, but the value would depend upon the frequency of the
opposing effects. In a FH game, -1/4 would be too cheap (Undead,
anyone).

As stated above, it is also open to abuse: let's say I design a 10
point Base power with x4 Advantages (50 Active), all with the Inactive
Limitation, but also take the limitation 'x10 End'. Our Hero has a 50
AP Power which only costs x2 End, yet he has a whopper of a Limitation.
OK, it's going to get affected by the wimpiest Drain/Dispel, but at 10
End, he's not going to keep it going long.

So you'd have to say that Inactive Advantages cannot take the Extra End
Limitation.

Actually, how would you like it if they couldn't take *any* other
Limitation other than Limitations common to the SFX? (eg a Priest has
Limitation: Only by Permission). You'd have to increase the value to
-1/2 or -1.


qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:47:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Sample template (very rough draft)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

Stainless Steel Rat writes:
> AJ> Hm...that's pretty low-end on strength/dex, high-end on defenses.
>
> It is a basic template. Look at the custom "packages" to see how those
> values are brought up to par for different concepts.

Oh, I know that it is supposed to be relatively low-end. Given that, it is
silly to include 30 con, 20 body, 25/25 defenses, and 20/20 damage resistance
in the 'package', since those are actually quite high values, particularly the
con/body.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 20:48:19
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:09:08 -0800 (PST), Brian Wong wrote:

>> Incidentally, there is no advantage
>> which allows deflecting area effects; area effect on deflection will not do
>> this.
>>
> This then raises the question, for 5th edition:
>
>Should there be one? If there was, what's a special effect that would
>warrent it?

Why can't I just apply the AOE advantage to Missile Deflection? It is a
Power, not a Skill.

After all, someone like Reflec might have Missile Deflection, Damage
Shield, Only vs Light attacks
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Subject: Re: Sample template (very rough draft)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 98 15:48:30 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
cc: <champ-l@omg.org>
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> This is far from perfect (I don't have my rule book with me), but
> here's a quick shot at a brick template.
>
> Basic Brick Template
>
> 40 STR 30
> 10 DEX 0
> 30 CON 40
> 20 BODY 20
> 10 INT 0
> 10 EGO 0
> 10 PRE 0
> 10 COM 0
> 25 PD (8) 17
> 25 ED (6) 19
> 3 SPD (20) 10
> 16 REC (14) 0
> 60 END (60) 0
> 60 STUN (55) 0
> TOTAL 136
>
> 20 Damage Resistance 20/20
>
> Total = 156
The only things I would change here is
20 PD (8) 12
20 ED (6) 14

11 EGO 2
12 PRE 2

Total : 150

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:50:21 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Sample template (very rough draft)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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---Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Hm...that's pretty low-end on strength/dex, high-end on defenses.
I'd say a
> 'basic' brick (which you would probably build up on) would be closer
to:

Deliberately low as each of the plug-ins adds to either STR or DEX
(sometimes both). If I start with the stats ate "expected" levels,
then I'm put in the position of having to reduce STR for the lower
strength "martial brick" or reduce DEX for the "slow brick".

I didn;t want to have subtractions in my plug-ins.

-=>John Desmarais
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:57:05 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Hero Templates
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

---David Fair wrote:
> How do we want to handle the logistics (i.e. sending/submitting/etc)
of
> this?

Since I kinda started this mess, I'll gladly act as a compiler and
create a repository on my Hero Stuff web site:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/6982

I'll even periodically collect the current working concepts into a
single message posting to the list to allow easier review.

-=>John Desmarais
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Sample template (very rough draft)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 13:01:13 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

Hello;

I think we need to set a few more ground rules before we start tossing
off templates.

Things like point settings, power levels, et all.

The sample I saw seemed way high on defenses, and way low on Dex.

I think the base of the stat/powers should be based on an
examination of published characters, and long established published power
levels.
Which means before we even get started tossing off templates we
need to sit down and agree on what the standard has been as far as published
works go, and if this standard difers enough from the typical campaign that
it should not be used.

I'll do some research in the next few days using my library of enemies
books, my BBB, and assorted modules to post what appears to be the published
averages. Then we can sit down and start debating on weather or not this
average is valid.
And I'll keep what I research to the 250 pt, 50 actvie arean unless
otherwise directed.

If we don't iron out the power levels agead of time, we're going to be
arguing like crazy of each and every template suggested. And they'll all
end up at different power levels than each other.

While I personally do not like the 250 point setting; personal
opinion has no bearing on this issue. What does have bearing is 'standard'.

Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 13:01:51 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Sample template (very rough draft)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

---David Fair wrote:
> The only things I would change here is
> 20 PD (8) 12
> 20 ED (6) 14
>
> 11 EGO 2
> 12 PRE 2

The change in PD and ED I can see, but why raise the EGO and PRE on a
template?
_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"John Desmarais\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 21:04:03
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Sample template (very rough draft)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:47:23 -0800 (PST), John Desmarais wrote:

>This is far from perfect (I don't have my rule book with me), but
>here's a quick shot at a brick template.

Congratualtions on being the first!

>Basic Brick Template
>
>40 STR 30
>10 DEX 0
>30 CON 40
>20 BODY 20
>10 INT 0
>10 EGO 0
>10 PRE 0
>10 COM 0
>25 PD (8) 17
>25 ED (6) 19
> 3 SPD (20) 10
>16 REC (14) 0
>60 END (60) 0
>60 STUN (55) 0
> TOTAL 136
>
>20 Damage Resistance 20/20
>
>Total = 156
>
>
>
>PLUG-INS
>
>Big Brick
> 37 Growth 6 levels, 1/2 END (+30 STR, +3 STUN, +3 BODY)
> 15 +3 DEX, +1 SPD
>Total = 208
>
>Slow Brick
> 20 +20 STR (+4 PD, +4 REC, +10 STUN)
> 5 +4 ED
> 14 Damage Resistance +14PD / +14ED
> 10 Knockback Resistance 10"
> 6 Combat Level +3 Punch
> 6 Combat Level +2 any H-t-H attack
>Total = 197

How about adding in +40 Str, x10 End, No Figured Char 'Extra Push' for
9 points?

>Martial Brick
> 15 Martial Arts
> 20 +8 DEX, +2 SPD
> 15 Combat Levels +3 hand to Hand
>Total = 206

40 Str is a bit on the high side, isn't it? Hmmm... say -10 Str (-10),
25% Normal Damage Reduction (10)?

>Brick-o-Steel (or any other hard substance)
> 10 +10 STR (+2 PD, +2 REC, +5 STUN)
> 10 +5 CON (+1 ED, +1 REC, +10 END, +3 STUN)
> 10 Damage Resistance +10PD / +10ED
> 10 Knockback Resistance 10"
> 10 Lack of Weakness
>Total = 206

No Density Increase?
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"SteveL1979@aol.com\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 21:07:33
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: The Great Linked Debate
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:36:05 EST, SteveL1979@aol.com wrote:

> In reviewing my notes in preparation for meetings in San Francisco next
>week, I found I do not have a concise, thorough summary of the Great Linked
>Debate. The list FAQ touches on the subject, but only briefly.
> Is there, or does anyone have, a thorough review of the debate, including
>all of the basic points/questions/concerns and the arguments made pro/con
>about each point? If so, I would appreciate receiving a copy or an URL.

OH NO! CA NE VAS PAS RECOMMENCER!

Not in the List, please!

qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 13:08:57 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Hero Templates
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

---David Fair wrote:
> How do we want to handle the logistics (i.e. sending/submitting/etc)
of
> this?

Hmm... I think my mail server ate my last message. Anyway, I'll
volunteer to collect and compile people's template ideas, then as
consensus is reached post them to my Hero Stuff web site:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/6982/

-=>John Desmarais
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: a question about deflection
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 13:15:11 -0800 (PST)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

> > Except under special circumstances, you cannot deflect area effect attacks
> > (based on special effect, it is sometimes allowed). As such, Captain
> > Deflection had better dive for cover. Incidentally, there is no advantage
> > which allows deflecting area effects; area effect on deflection will not do
> > this.
>
> I could possibly see AE on STR allowing this, but there are SFX of
> deflection that don't use the physical body. Personally, I'd like to see
> some way to modify Missile Deflection in 5th edition to allow for area
> effect attacks. Some sort of custom modifier.
>
And people tell me there's no need for a generic, definable advantage.

No matter how well you define it in advance, there's always more concepts out
there that need a kludge to do.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

TRG> Now why don't you make yourself useful and help to come up with an
TRG> add-on to the Missile Deflection talent

Power

TRG> for handling AE attacks. How much is it worth? That's the main
TRG> question.

It is worth more than anyone can afford. :)

No, seriously, Block simply does not work that way. One must be able to
lift, move, or similarly affect the incoming attack in order to Block it.
And one cannot Block non-ranged AoE attacks, such as Grond swinging a piano
around (SFX of the attack could change that).

Missile Deflection extends that ability to ranged attacks, but it does not
affect the scale of what can be affected. An advantage that allows
Deflection against AoE attacks will negate that inherent restriction. And
that is worth drastically more than the roughly 60 points that Deflection
with even a +2 advantage would cost.

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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Sample template (very rough draft)
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "AJ" == Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> writes:

AJ> Oh, I know that it is supposed to be relatively low-end. Given that,
AJ> it is silly to include 30 con, 20 body, 25/25 defenses, and 20/20
AJ> damage resistance in the 'package', since those are actually quite high
AJ> values, particularly the con/body.

I was commenting mostly on the increase of base Strength. Consider that
the listed packages -- all reasonable variations, IMO -- with the higher
base Strength would push a character's top striking damage above the 12DC
cap of a standard supers game.

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Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:00:55 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Sample template (very rough draft)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> Hm...that's pretty low-end on strength/dex, high-end on defenses. I'd say a
> 'basic' brick (which you would probably build up on) would be closer to:

Quite right on the assesment.

> 50 STR 40
> 14 DEX 12
> 23 CON 26
> 15 BOD 10
> 10 INT 0
> 10 EGO 0
> 20 PRE 10
> 10 COM 0
> 25 PD 15
> 20 ED 15
> 4 SPD 12
> 15 REC 0
> 46 END 0
> 52 STN 0
> Plus:
> 10 damage resistance: 12 PD, 8 ED
> Total 150 points.


This looks better, but I'd drop the basic package SPD to 3.


-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Hero Templates
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:02:54 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> >> OK. 'Cept we still haven't got anyone volunteering
> >> to write the suckers! :-)
> >
> >Though my methods may not make people here too happy, I'll see aht I
> >can dig up, then post them somewhere for review (disection), and
> >approval (the part where I bribe various people).
> >
> > The reason I'm doing the current debate is I don't hope to do this
> >work alone, so I thought setting the ground rules of a group project first
> >would be best.
> >
> > Or I could just do up one of the templates, and once it's approved,
> >it could serve as the ground rules via example.
> > I'd most likely start with energy projector, since it's what I
> >have loads of, and is one of the real simple ones.
> > I'd love to do speedster, but I imagine any such attempt will just
> >revive the recent flame war. :)
>
> I'd be happy to a set of "background plugins" with professional skills
> and all that jazz. I have many of these done up as package deals already,
> for new players to use.
>
> How do we want to handle the logistics (i.e. sending/submitting/etc) of
> this?
>

Well, either through email, this list, or a website.

I've been planning on taking down my V&V Networld for some time and easily
modify it's form based submissions to take in and process the
various template suggestions.

However, I think at this point we're about 2-4 weeks away from
being able to justify building templates.

We need to determine stat averages, power levels, format, etc. first.

We need to decide if a brick plugin will work with a speedster base, or
if a given plugin will only work for it's own type of base.

We need to agree upon standards that rulings will be based on.

We need agree upon what sources power level standards will be drawn from.

We need to agree not to use this as a forum to debate linked. :)

etc...

I could have my site configured to handle submissions in about a day, I
just have to change the names of a few fields here and there, and of course,
figure out what goes in a base, what goes in a plugin, etc...


Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:03:19 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org



> > make yourself useful and help to come up with an add-on to the Missile
> > Deflection talent for handling AE attacks. How much is it worth? That's
> > the main question.
>
> 42.


I said "the main question", not "the question."


-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 22:05:21
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Hero Templates
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
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X-UID: 16

On Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:34:01 -0600 (CST), Dataweaver wrote:

>I have access to H4, TUMA, TUM, E4E, and the Almanacs; I would definitely
>say to use the Ultimate Series as sources, as well Dark Champions and
>Fantasy Hero.

No, no, no. The point of templates is to make things easier for beginners. Beginners
probably won't have access to all of those books (particularly the Ultimate series).

I would suggest, initially at least, that if this project is going to be done, then it be limited
to a single genre (four color supers would be my choice) and only use what avaiable in
the core rules (the BBB). If we can actually create something useful without devolving
into flamage, then there is time to address other genres (or sub genres) later (although I
would still urge folks to limit themselves to the core rules). Remember, we're trying to
help beginners.

-=>John Desmarais

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Sample template (very rough draft)
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Date: 04 Feb 1998 17:13:36 -0500
Lines: 39
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My try:

40 STR 30
13 DEX 9
23 CON 26
15 BOD 10
10 INT 0
10 EGO 0
15 PRE 5
10 COM 10
20 PD 12
20 ED 15
3 SPD 7
15 REC 0
46 END 0
52 STN 0
---
124

Yeah, a lot of things are "too low" for a brick. This is a template, not a
finished character.

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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
\ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Sample template (very rough draft)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:18:55 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Before we start sending these off, could we please sit down and set some
ground rules on power level, points, etc...
See some of my other posts for what I'm getting at.

Besides, shouldn't the 'brick of steel' have density increase? :)

Should we continue this here? or move it to private email, chat, or
what have you until we have something to present?

(as far as chat goes, #herochat always works, once we all meet there,
we could move to a subchannel to keep from hogging those people out.)

Of course, this all assumes that only a small number of people on
this list actually desire to participate.
Something which may or may not be true.

>
> This is far from perfect (I don't have my rule book with me), but
> here's a quick shot at a brick template.
>
> Basic Brick Template
>
> 40 STR 30
> 10 DEX 0
> 30 CON 40
> 20 BODY 20
> 10 INT 0
> 10 EGO 0
> 10 PRE 0
> 10 COM 0
> 25 PD (8) 17
> 25 ED (6) 19
> 3 SPD (20) 10
> 16 REC (14) 0
> 60 END (60) 0
> 60 STUN (55) 0
> TOTAL 136
>
> 20 Damage Resistance 20/20
>
> Total = 156
>
>
>
> PLUG-INS
>
> Big Brick
> 37 Growth 6 levels, 1/2 END (+30 STR, +3 STUN, +3 BODY)
> 15 +3 DEX, +1 SPD
> Total = 208
>
> Slow Brick
> 20 +20 STR (+4 PD, +4 REC, +10 STUN)
> 5 +4 ED
> 14 Damage Resistance +14PD / +14ED
> 10 Knockback Resistance 10"
> 6 Combat Level +3 Punch
> 6 Combat Level +2 any H-t-H attack
> Total = 197
>
> Martial Brick
> 15 Martial Arts
> 20 +8 DEX, +2 SPD
> 15 Combat Levels +3 hand to Hand
> Total = 206
>
> Brick-o-Steel (or any other hard substance)
> 10 +10 STR (+2 PD, +2 REC, +5 STUN)
> 10 +5 CON (+1 ED, +1 REC, +10 END, +3 STUN)
> 10 Damage Resistance +10PD / +10ED
> 10 Knockback Resistance 10"
> 10 Lack of Weakness
> Total = 206
>
>
>
> -=>John Desmarais
> _________________________________________________________
> DO YOU YAHOO!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:47:38 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Sample template (very rough draft)
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> AJ> Oh, I know that it is supposed to be relatively low-end. Given that,
> AJ> it is silly to include 30 con, 20 body, 25/25 defenses, and 20/20
> AJ> damage resistance in the 'package', since those are actually quite high
> AJ> values, particularly the con/body.
>
> I was commenting mostly on the increase of base Strength. Consider that
> the listed packages -- all reasonable variations, IMO -- with the higher
> base Strength would push a character's top striking damage above the 12DC
> cap of a standard supers game.


True. Good points all around on some of the stats being high. I
personally allow a higher max DC for HTH specialists in my campaigns, but
I'm sure not everybody does the same.

However, this brings up a good point. Should the base level for a
"standard" campaign be changed? Yes, I know that it is supposed to
simulate beginning novice heros. Players have problems understanding
this, however. Players that want to simulate a Comic Book character and
are told that it is too powerful might try looking for a system that will
let them play that character. Perhaps the standard should move up to the
300 point, 12 DC range?


-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:09:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
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qts writes:

> Why can't I just apply the AOE advantage to Missile Deflection? It is a
> Power, not a Skill.

Because the AOE advantage on missile deflection means you can deflect missiles
in an area, not that you can deflect area effects.
>
> After all, someone like Reflec might have Missile Deflection, Damage
> Shield, Only vs Light attacks

Damage shield cannot be applied to missile deflection, as (a) it isn't an
attack power, and (b) damage shield only takes effect when you are hit in HTH
combat, and missile deflection only applies to ranged combat, and (c) a damage
shield has no OCV, and therefore cannot make block rolls in any case.

There is an argument for changing the mechanic of reflection (yet again) to
make 'passive' reflection possible; I'd probably go with a mechanic similar to
absorbion (say, 5 pts per damage class you can reflect, reflection does _not_
count as a defense, though of course it can be linked to one).

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 15:29:33 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Sample template (very rough draft)
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At 05:13 PM 2/4/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>My try:
>
>40 STR 30
>13 DEX 9
>23 CON 26
>15 BOD 10
>10 INT 0
>10 EGO 0
>15 PRE 5
>10 COM 10
>20 PD 12
>20 ED 15
> 3 SPD 7
>15 REC 0
>46 END 0
>52 STN 0
> ---
> 124
>
>Yeah, a lot of things are "too low" for a brick. This is a template, not a
>finished character.

Of the ones I've seen so far, this is the one I like best, except that I
think I'd start with 15 DEX (for a "basic" brick in a "standard" superhero
campaign).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:37:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Sample template (very rough draft)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Stainless Steel Rat writes:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> My try:
>
> 40 STR 30
> 13 DEX 9
> 23 CON 26
> 15 BOD 10
> 10 INT 0
> 10 EGO 0
> 15 PRE 5
> 10 COM 10
> 20 PD 12
> 20 ED 15
> 3 SPD 7
> 15 REC 0
> 46 END 0
> 52 STN 0
> ---
> 124
>
> Yeah, a lot of things are "too low" for a brick. This is a template, not a
> finished character.

No damage resistance at all? Very few characters with 20 PD/ED will rely on
dodging gunfire, so it should include at least minimal damage resistance. In
addition, assigning people a 13 dex should probably be avoided. Otherwise
looks pretty reasonable, though.

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 15:44:09 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: The Great Linked Debate
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At 10:36 AM 2/4/1998 EST, SteveL1979@aol.com wrote:
> In reviewing my notes in preparation for meetings in San Francisco next
>week, I found I do not have a concise, thorough summary of the Great Linked
>Debate. The list FAQ touches on the subject, but only briefly.
> Is there, or does anyone have, a thorough review of the debate, including
>all of the basic points/questions/concerns and the arguments made pro/con
>about each point? If so, I would appreciate receiving a copy or an URL.

I was originally going to respond directly, but I'm going to put this to
the list so folks can correct any misstatements of fact I make.
Much of it stems from two sources. One, of course, is the writing of
the Linked Limitation in the HSR. If one takes a strictly literal
word-for-word reading of the Limitation as written there, then it says that
a Power with this Limitation can only be used when the Power to which it is
Linked is turned on. However, the other Power can still be used without
the Linked Power, and the two do not need to be used in proportion to one
another.
The other source is the original version of the Limitation, the "Based
On" that was in earlier editions of Champions. I don't have an earlier
edition with me (uh, my dog ate it), but if I recall correctly, both Powers
had to be used together, and in proportion. We who have played and loved
the game for that long remember this version of the Limitation, and don't
understand why it was changed. (It's probably Rob Bell's fault, eh?)
Now here's where the debate comes up. Some of us liked Based On the way
it was, and expect Linked to work that way, while others of us have taken
Linked for the way it's written, literally. (Most, however, demand that if
the Linked Power is used, then it must be used in proportion to the other
Power, or at least not at a greater relative level.)
That, hopefully, is a clear an unbiased explanation of the GLD.
Now, for my recommendation for a solution: Go back to the old way of
handlling this (though I'd continue to call it "Linked"), and allow a +1/4
Limitation for Linked to be "one-way" (the Linked Power *either* can only
be used with the larger Power, *or* must be used when the other Power is
used).
Now, please, if anyone else on the list has corrections or comments to
make on this, please limit it to (1) clarifying the points of the debate
(and *NOT* arguing for or against one side or the other), or (2) making a
different recommendation (and *NOT* debating the merits of others' ideas).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm


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Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 15:58:10 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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At 11:54 AM 2/4/1998 -0600, Dataweaver wrote:
>> The Ultimate Brick could address "low-level" bricks in heroic campaigns,
>> like Fezzik, Worf, or B.A. Baracus.
>
>I'm curious about how they intend to get an entire book about strong guys.
>I mean, what is there to include?

There are a number of classic "brick tricks" that one sees in comics.
Shockwaves are one (hitting the fist with one's hand to knock down everyone
standing nearby; the kind of Missile Deflection where large missiles are
punched out of the air is another; using large objects of opportunity (such
as the Space Needle) as weapons is yet another.
Hopefully too, the author approached it the way I did vehicles, and a
couple of other folks on the list did for speedsters: just go through the
list of Powers and Modifiers, and ponder, "How can this hold a special
meaning for them?" Bricks can have Absorption of certain types of energy
that increase their STR and/or END. They can have an Aid to STR that only
works when angry (or Enraged or Berserk). It's fairly common for them to
have Armor. There may be ways that a super-high STR can have a Change
Environment effect (like a lower-level Shockwave knocking down all the
small objects in the area). And so forth.

>> The Ultimate Shape Changer (or is it Shape Shifter? It keeps switching)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
><chuckle>

No kidding. :-]

>> would certainly have a lot to contribute to science-fiction and fantasy.
>> Vampires and werewolves are, after all, your basic shape changer, and a
>> player with an Odo-like character in a science-fiction setting would need a
>> book like this.
>
>You could also address other forms of "shapeshifting" - mental
>shapeshifting (covered in TUM) would allow you to change your personality
>at will, or it could represent a split personality in conjunction with
>Accidental Change; or you could use "social shapeshifting" to represent
>someone like the title character from "the Saint"...

Absolutely, and hopefully that has been included.

>> If The Ultimate Powered Armor had come out when it was originally
>> scheduled (before TUMA), it *might* have gotten away with a supers-only
>> emphasis, but these days I think there's enough battlesuits in straight
>> science-fiction that something would have to be addressed along those
>> lines. And with a little imagination, one could have a "symbiotic
>> creature" that functions like a battlesuit.
>
>...and there's the obvious connection to vehicles here; when does Powered
>Armor stop being powered armor and start becoming a robot vehicle?

I do cover that point in TUSV, and hopefully the same dividing line will
be described in the final draft of TUPA.

>> There are other Ultimate books in the works, but this should give a
>> basic idea of what can be done. When I was putting together TUSV, I went
>> through the entire book (the manuscript I'd already halfway prepared for
>> The Ultimate Giant Robot) and asked myself, "What can be done here in other
>> genres?" I had a pretty good idea as far as giant robots and various types
>> of superheroes, and didn't have much problem with space opera, but fantasy?
>> Westerns? Super-spies? Historic vessels? Actual World War II ships and
>> aircraft? (This last one only occurred to me just now -- darn it, that's
>> even more to add.) Just about every aspect of the book had to be
>> reexamined so at least some consideration was given to these other genres.
>> From the feedback I've gotten, I've been at least somewhat successful.
>
>I know I'll be purchasing a copy... Another "genre" to consider would be
>alternate technologies - steam-powered giant robots in Victorian England,
>or Ether-ships from the late 19th century; a Renaissance-era mechanical
>riding beast, powered by an alchemical compound; Flying ships in a fantasy
>campaign...

These are all "special applications" (that is, not really significant
enough to warrant more than a couple of paragraphs, and maybe a couple of
quick examples), but they can certainly be done with little or no stress
with what's already in there.

>> I don't know what can be done about the math problem, but hopefully if
>> we get enough pre-made powers and equipment in Ultimate books and other
>> sourcebooks (especially campaign books like Michael Surbrook's Kazei 5)
>> maybe at least some of that can be alleviated.
>
>IMHO, that's about the only way to do it. Optionally, new character
>designs could try a bit more to hide the mechanics, by listing
>heavily-modified powers (i.e., loaded down with ads and lims) with a new
>name:
>
> 2d6 Missile Attack (purchased as EB, Seeking, Beam Attack), 6 Charges
>
>instead of
>
> 2d6 EB; Seeking, Beam Attack, 6 Charges

The way it's currently done is more like:

<B>Missiles:</B> Energy Blast, 2d6, Seeking, Beam Attack, 6 Charges (7) [6c]

Is this clear enough?
---
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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 16:20:41 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!
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I wish to echo Brian/Rook's concept of an 'Advantaged' advantage, basically
the flip side of 'limited'. Yes, "You can just do this anyway", but it
really helps having it in the rules.

There have been a lot of conceptions on this board which either require a)a
new advantage, or, b)require ridiculous kludges. Too many limited-utility
advantages clutter the game. And any concept which requires a half page of
advantages and limitations and linked powers to do is an indication of a
weakness in the system. (I'm thinking specifically of the 'sword whose
wounds cannot be healed by magic' discussion of a few weeks back)

Please, Steve, or anyone else doing H5 -- consider adding 'Advantaged',
albeit with a big glowing neon stop sign next to it.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:29:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Filksinger writes:
> I think there should be one.
>
> A proper special effect-- Gateman. Gateman creates XDM gates for his power.
> A gate big enough to protect an entire area, which shunts all energies that
hit it into another dimension, thus protecting the people behind it.
>

We call this a 'force wall'.

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Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:30:37 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
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On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Brian Wong wrote:

> > Incidentally, there is no advantage
> > which allows deflecting area effects; area effect on deflection will not do
> > this.
> >
> This then raises the question, for 5th edition:
>
> Should there be one? If there was, what's a special effect that would
> warrent it?

This would depend, IMHO, more on the attack than on missile deflection; if
the attack is along the lines of a wall of fire, I don't see someone being
able to deflect it. OTOH, if it's a missile that attacks everyone
in a three-foot radius after being triggered, it might be possible to
deflect it via normal means before it triggers.

Giant Robots had an interesting Modifier in it that might be worth
considering porting into H5: Missile attack. The version mentioned in
Giant Robots is an attack which can be "shot down" and takes time to reach
its target. One could combine that with Seeking, allowing for an attack
which simulates a guided missile.

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
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Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:07:33 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Sample template (very rough draft)
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On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, John Desmarais wrote:

> This is far from perfect (I don't have my rule book with me), but
> here's a quick shot at a brick template.
>
> Basic Brick Template
>
> 40 STR 30
> 10 DEX 0
> 30 CON 40
> 20 BODY 20
> 10 INT 0
> 10 EGO 0
> 10 PRE 0
^^^ No bonus to PRE? Bricks tend to be amongst the best intimidators
around...
> 10 COM 0
> 25 PD (8) 17
> 25 ED (6) 19
> 3 SPD (20) 10
^^2
> 16 REC (14) 0
^4
> 60 END (60) 0
> 60 STUN (55) 0
^5
> TOTAL 136
^^^145
>
> 20 Damage Resistance 20/20
>
> Total = 156
^^^165

Note: this qualifies nicely for a Superhero-genre Brick (which is what
it's supposed to be, so that's not neccessarily a problem...)

You might want to consider making all of the basic templates (Brick,
Speedster, Mentalist, Energy Projector, etc.) cost the same, so that
they're more modular. OTOH, 165 points seems a bit on the expensive side,
as it's not going to leave much room for racial and/or occupational
package deals... Consider building your basic templates on 100 points.

Also, you could fit _some_ customization into the Template itself ("Energy
Projector: Choose one of 6D6 EB, 2D6 RKA, or 3D6 Flash", for instance...)

Write the Characteristics as Modifiers instead of final values (STR +30
instead of ST 40) so that people who wish to can combine basic templates.

> PLUG-INS
>
> Big Brick
> 37 Growth 6 levels, 1/2 END (+30 STR, +3 STUN, +3 BODY)
> 15 +3 DEX, +1 SPD
> Total = 208
^^^ +52
> Slow Brick
> 20 +20 STR (+4 PD, +4 REC, +10 STUN)
> 5 +4 ED
> 14 Damage Resistance +14PD / +14ED
> 10 Knockback Resistance 10"
> 6 Combat Level +3 Punch
> 6 Combat Level +2 any H-t-H attack
> Total = 197
^^^ +41
> Martial Brick
> 15 Martial Arts
> 20 +8 DEX, +2 SPD
> 15 Combat Levels +3 hand to Hand
> Total = 206
^^^ +50
Also, probably unneccessary. The Martial Brick could probably be built
better as Brick + one of the Martial Artist Package Deals.

> Brick-o-Steel (or any other hard substance)
> 10 +10 STR (+2 PD, +2 REC, +5 STUN)
> 10 +5 CON (+1 ED, +1 REC, +10 END, +3 STUN)
> 10 Damage Resistance +10PD / +10ED
> 10 Knockback Resistance 10"
> 10 Lack of Weakness
> Total = 206
^^^ +50
Consider reducing or eliminating these bonuses with levels of Density
Increase.

Another possible Brick would replace the extra +17 PD, +19 ED, and 50
points of Damage Resistance with 50% Resistant Physical and Energy Damage
Reduction - a "soft" Brick (bullets don't bounce, but he hardly feels
them...)

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:08:45 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
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> Because the AOE advantage on missile deflection means you can deflect missiles
> in an area, not that you can deflect area effects.

Good point.

> Damage shield cannot be applied to missile deflection, as (a) it isn't an
> attack power, and (b) damage shield only takes effect when you are hit in HTH
> combat, and missile deflection only applies to ranged combat, and (c) a damage
> shield has no OCV, and therefore cannot make block rolls in any case.

As much as this makes sense, in a semi-official manner applying DS
to missile deflection will make it act without an attack action. TUSM
made this rule change.

> There is an argument for changing the mechanic of reflection (yet again) to
> make 'passive' reflection possible; I'd probably go with a mechanic similar to
> absorbion (say, 5 pts per damage class you can reflect, reflection does _not_
> count as a defense, though of course it can be linked to one).


Nope. Changes the whole feel.

Reflection is supposed to be different from regular defenses which
will always apply, but whose effectiveness depends on the size of the
attacking power. Reflection won't always apply, but the size of the
attack doesn't matter. That is why it is a different mechanic in the
first place. Otherwise take some defense with an activation limitation.
Or some extra DCVs with an activation limitation.


-Tim Gilberg

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Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:21:16 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Limitation/AP mods idea
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On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, qts wrote:

> On Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:03:43 -0600 (CST), Dataweaver wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, qts wrote:
> >> >Hmm... there's an example of where the personal immunity is in the active
> >> >power. But with many special effects, the personal immunity has nothing to
> >> >do with the active power. Like Cyclops, with his personal immunity to his
> >> >energy blast... it's not that the blast is more powerful or more complex,
> >> >but that his skin can metabolize it. In this case the personal immunity
> >> >should not affect the active cost if the player doesn't wish it.
> >>
> >> It is clearly advantageous for him to be immune, though.
> >>
> >> Right, I see what you mean and my solution is very simple: just use a
> >> Partial Limitation 'Does not count to Active Points when Power is
> >> Suppressed, Drained, or Dispelled'. I'd give that a -1/2 Limitation.
> >
> >At most, -1/4, considering the cost of "Difficult to Dispel".
>
> Remember that this is a *partial* limitation.

As in, "only applies to part of the power"? I know; But "Costs END" is a
-1/2L regardless of whether it's being used as a normal limitation or a
partial limitation - and it's considered a -1/2L because "No END Cost" is
a +1/2A. The proposed partial limitation is comparable to being an
inverse of "difficult to dispel" (although a true inverse of said power
would halve the AP cost for dispel purposes only, while this negates the
cost of whatever it's applied to entirely - and affects more than just
Dispel. Come to think of it, this probably _would_ be a -1/2L... A moot
point, though, as I would never allow it in my games anyway).

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:34:01 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Hero Templates
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On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Brian Wong wrote:

> > >> OK. 'Cept we still haven't got anyone volunteering
> > >> to write the suckers! :-)
> > >
> > >Though my methods may not make people here too happy, I'll see aht I
> > >can dig up, then post them somewhere for review (disection), and
> > >approval (the part where I bribe various people).
> > >
> > > The reason I'm doing the current debate is I don't hope to do this
> > >work alone, so I thought setting the ground rules of a group project first
> > >would be best.
> > >
> > > Or I could just do up one of the templates, and once it's approved,
> > >it could serve as the ground rules via example.
> > > I'd most likely start with energy projector, since it's what I
> > >have loads of, and is one of the real simple ones.
> > > I'd love to do speedster, but I imagine any such attempt will just
> > >revive the recent flame war. :)
> >
> > I'd be happy to a set of "background plugins" with professional skills
> > and all that jazz. I have many of these done up as package deals already,
> > for new players to use.
> >
> > How do we want to handle the logistics (i.e. sending/submitting/etc) of
> > this?
> >
>
> Well, either through email, this list, or a website.

If you choose to run it through email instead of this list, please include
me in it.

> I've been planning on taking down my V&V Networld for some time and easily
> modify it's form based submissions to take in and process the
> various template suggestions.
>
> However, I think at this point we're about 2-4 weeks away from
> being able to justify building templates.

That long, huh? In that case, I'd be willing to come up with some
"mini-templates" for more heroic campaigns to use...

> We need to determine stat averages, power levels, format, etc. first.

Are we intending to use any of the semi-official power restrictions that
show up? (Not having my books with me, I'm winging this: things like
TUMA's Street-Level/Cinematic?/Wild Martial Arts levels...) Maybe
construct multiple versions of each template, one for each campaign
level...

> We need to decide if a brick plugin will work with a speedster base, or
> if a given plugin will only work for it's own type of base.

I'd try to make the plug-ins as versatile as possible; have a set of
general plug-ins that aren't even given a base and can be applied to
anything, then have a set of plug-ins that apply only to a given base.
Whenever a plug-in is proposed, see if it can be made to fit into the
general category, and put it there if it can; otherwise, keep it with the
base it was designed for.

> We need to agree upon standards that rulings will be based on.

Yes, we do... ;)

> We need agree upon what sources power level standards will be drawn from.

I have access to H4, TUMA, TUM, E4E, and the Almanacs; I would definitely
say to use the Ultimate Series as sources, as well Dark Champions and
Fantasy Hero.

> We need to agree not to use this as a forum to debate linked. :)

Aww... :)

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:48:56 -0800
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Sample templates...
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Why doesn't someone check Champions III (IIRC)? Isn't that the one with the
Champions random character generation tables?

It had base stats for bricks, martial artists, energy projectors and
mentallists, and then you rolled on the charts to add extra powers (like
extra STR or invisibility or a flash attack, etc.)

Possibly those base stats could be made into templates.

Richard

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Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:50:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org, champ-l@omg.org
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Tim R. Gilberg writes:
> Reflection is supposed to be different from regular defenses which
> will always apply, but whose effectiveness depends on the size of the
> attacking power. Reflection won't always apply, but the size of the
> attack doesn't matter. That is why it is a different mechanic in the
> first place. Otherwise take some defense with an activation limitation.
> Or some extra DCVs with an activation limitation.

Reflection isn't a defense at all, intrinsically. Reflection is the ability to
hit someone with their own attack. There is no necessary reason for this to
give defenses, any more than there is for absorbtion. Comic book characters
with reflection (which are pretty rare) often feel at least some of what hit
them despite reflecting. What I was proposing was separating the 'reflection'
effect from missile _deflection_ -- which _is_ a defense. Link reflection (as
I described it) with missile deflection and you'd get the current mechanic,
except that there'd be an upper limit on the # of DCs you could absorb.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:54:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org, champ-l@omg.org
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Tim R. Gilberg writes:

> As much as this makes sense, in a semi-official manner applying DS
> to missile deflection will make it act without an attack action. TUSM
> made this rule change.

Ugh. There are a number of obnoxious crocks in the Ultimate books; frequently
they're necessary for some effect which _ought_ to be possible but currently
isn't, but that doesn't make them stop being obnoxious crocks.

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Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 18:01:43 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Champions books (was TUMA Maneuvers)
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-- Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "RH" == Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> writes:
>
> JaRP> Missile Reflection. Explain that, please, Rat. You can even abort to it.
>
> >> It is a legacy of the second edition of the game.
>
> RH> What do you mean, its a legacy of the second edition? Could you
> RH> PLEASE tell me what the hell that has to do with the origional
> RH> question?
>
> Dig up a copy of "Champions II", which has the original version of the
> Missile Reflection power.

I still own the origional three books, the origional Champions and the
two supplements. Thats all they were, supplements. Then the Big Blue Book came
out. It contained most of the rules from the origional Champions and two
supplements with many of them changed in some shape or form and some extra stuff
to hang it all together. So saying that it was such and such away in Champions
2 or 3 doesn't mean anything. The "fourth edition" replaced the three books and
made them obselete. Anything that came after may be tossed into the ring as a
source with approval from all present but anything that came before has been
made null and void.

You have to play with the most recent rules, Rat. Thats what the rest
of us are playing with.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:02:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Hero Templates
Cc: champ-l@omg.org, champ-l@omg.org
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Dataweaver writes:
> >
> > However, I think at this point we're about 2-4 weeks away from
> > being able to justify building templates.
>
> That long, huh? In that case, I'd be willing to come up with some
> "mini-templates" for more heroic campaigns to use...

Heh. 'Heroic' templates are also a good thing, though they don't have too much
to do with superhero templates.
>
> Are we intending to use any of the semi-official power restrictions that
> show up? (Not having my books with me, I'm winging this: things like
> TUMA's Street-Level/Cinematic?/Wild Martial Arts levels...) Maybe
> construct multiple versions of each template, one for each campaign
> level...

Personally, I'd prefer that templates be fairly easy to understand, and as such
have minimal use of power limitations (you need OAF for gunmen, archers, etc,
and you need OIF/OHID for power-suit guys, and Always On is appropriate for a
few powers)
>
> > We need agree upon what sources power level standards will be drawn from.

I'd really recommend trying to limit it to genre books; i.e. for superheroes go
with the levels in the BBB (yah, it seems low to a lot of people -- but
remember, templates are for _beginners_)

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 18:06:12 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!
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> I wish to echo Brian/Rook's concept of an 'Advantaged' advantage, basically
> the flip side of 'limited'. Yes, "You can just do this anyway", but it
> really helps having it in the rules.

Yeah, and if that argument held any real weaight, we'd drop limited.
After all, "You can just do that anyway too." Any use of limited is in essense
a house rule. What one GM see's to be worth -1/2 another will see as -1/4,
another
-1, and yet another might call it -0.

But spelling it out in the rulebook make players feel more comfortable with
bringing it
to the GM, and GM's more comfortable with ok'ing it barring it fits the game.
Personally I
think limited needs a magnifying glass on it, just as the 'Advantaged'
advantage should have.


> There have been a lot of conceptions on this board which either require a)a
> new advantage, or, b)require ridiculous kludges. Too many limited-utility
> advantages clutter the game. And any concept which requires a half page of
> advantages and limitations and linked powers to do is an indication of a
> weakness in the system. (I'm thinking specifically of the 'sword whose
> wounds cannot be healed by magic' discussion of a few weeks back)

Oh yeah, not to mention solving the linked issue. Allowing an area effect
defense (providing GM
approval and a close examination). And countless other hard to impossible
things to do in hero.


> Please, Steve, or anyone else doing H5 -- consider adding 'Advantaged',
> albeit with a big glowing neon stop sign next to it.

Go to their site and fill out the questionaire. :)

--
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/


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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 18:21:49 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 04:29 PM 2/4/1998 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Filksinger writes:
>> I think there should be one.
>>
>> A proper special effect-- Gateman. Gateman creates XDM gates for his power.
>> A gate big enough to protect an entire area, which shunts all energies that
>hit it into another dimension, thus protecting the people behind it.
>
>We call this a 'force wall'.

Different game effect for a *similar* special effect. A Force Wall
would provide protection to a limited amount; Missile Deflection would
completely shunt all energy, though it would have to be controlled on an
attack-by-attack basis.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm


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Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 18:21:49 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 04:29 PM 2/4/1998 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Filksinger writes:
>> I think there should be one.
>>
>> A proper special effect-- Gateman. Gateman creates XDM gates for his power.
>> A gate big enough to protect an entire area, which shunts all energies that
>hit it into another dimension, thus protecting the people behind it.
>
>We call this a 'force wall'.

Different game effect for a *similar* special effect. A Force Wall
would provide protection to a limited amount; Missile Deflection would
completely shunt all energy, though it would have to be controlled on an
attack-by-attack basis.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm


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Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 20:47:51 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Sample template (very rough draft)
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> > 40 STR 30
> > 13 DEX 9
> > 23 CON 26
> > 15 BOD 10
> > 10 INT 0
> > 10 EGO 0
> > 15 PRE 5
> > 10 COM 10
> > 20 PD 12
> > 20 ED 15
> > 3 SPD 7
> > 15 REC 0
> > 46 END 0
> > 52 STN 0
> > ---
> > 124
> >
> > Yeah, a lot of things are "too low" for a brick. This is a template, not a
> > finished character.

Great template, Rat. This is about exactly where I would put it.
I might take the PRE down to 10, however. I can think of some meek
Bricks.

> No damage resistance at all? Very few characters with 20 PD/ED will rely on
> dodging gunfire, so it should include at least minimal damage resistance. In

But this is something that could be bought through a variety of
means. Armor, Damage Reduction, or Damage Resistance. That much
ambiguity deserves no "dfault" purchase. Heck, I'd lower the defenses to
18 or 16, myself.

> addition, assigning people a 13 dex should probably be avoided. Otherwise
> looks pretty reasonable, though.


Actually, the 13 DEX would be about the minimum for a Brick.
Remeber that we are working with the power and characteristic levels of
the "book" characters. 13 DEX/3 SPD is about the extreme low end.

The other qualifier is that we want characters for beginning
players. Assume that the characters will all be in a narrow band for
things like CV, Spd, AP, DC, and defenses. Having 10 DEX, 2 SPD character
might be fine for an experienced gamer who knows how to use things like
levels, but when trying to keep things simple and give beginners a usable
character template, we want to provide characters that will be "easier" to
use.


-Tim Gilberg

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Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 20:50:55 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]
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> > A proper special effect-- Gateman. Gateman creates XDM gates for his power.
> > A gate big enough to protect an entire area, which shunts all energies that
> hit it into another dimension, thus protecting the people behind it.
> >
> We call this a 'force wall'.


Doesn't fit the effect. The force wall will work based solely on
the DCs of the incoming attack. The SFX calls for any attack being sucked
in. As I pointed out earlier, the whole reason why Missile Deflection
exists is to provide a different mechanic for avoiding damage.


-Tim Gilberg

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Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 20:55:17 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org, champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Hero Templates
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On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Dataweaver writes:
> > >
> > > However, I think at this point we're about 2-4 weeks away from
> > > being able to justify building templates.
> >
> > That long, huh? In that case, I'd be willing to come up with some
> > "mini-templates" for more heroic campaigns to use...
>
> Heh. 'Heroic' templates are also a good thing, though they don't have
> too much to do with superhero templates.

...although non-superhero genres could easily benefit from this project
nearly as much as superhero genres would (and consider the possibilities
in terms of Dark Champions...)

> > Are we intending to use any of the semi-official power restrictions
> > that show up? (Not having my books with me, I'm winging this: things
> > like TUMA's Street-Level/Cinematic?/Wild Martial Arts levels...) Maybe
> > construct multiple versions of each template, one for each campaign
> > level...
>
> Personally, I'd prefer that templates be fairly easy to understand, and
> as such have minimal use of power limitations (you need OAF for gunmen,
> archers, etc, and you need OIF/OHID for power-suit guys, and Always On
> is appropriate for a few powers)

Could someone please summarize the various bases (Brick, Speedster,
Mentalist, etc.) and power levels (Street-Level, etc.) that Champions
suggests? (I don't own, and never have owned, Champions; I work
exclusively from the Hero System Rulesbook, the Ultimate series, and -
occasionally - Dark Champions, although the last one is currently in
storage and unavailable to me)...

> > > We need agree upon what sources power level standards will be drawn
> > > from.
>
> I'd really recommend trying to limit it to genre books; i.e. for
> superheroes go with the levels in the BBB (yah, it seems low to a lot of
> people -- but remember, templates are for _beginners_)

As I mention elsewhere, I'd also suggest trying to equalize the costs of
the various bases and plug-ins as much as possible, for easier portability
(does anyone else recall ye olde Turtle Armor? ;) )

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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From: sdgf@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 13:02:27 +1000
Date-warning: Date header was inserted by topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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At 03:33 PM 2/3/98 -0600, you wrote:
>> > nature of the powers: His view is that different abilities need different
>> > mechanics in order to give them appropriate different "feels" - that a magical
>> > bolt of lightning and a shot from a .45 pistol should have a greater
>> > mechanical difference than given by different "special effects" or even
>> > different advantages and limitations. But this is a basic philosophical
>> > difference, and I don't think that Hero can be changed enough to satisfy
>> > players of this sort.
>>
>> Agreed...
>
>
> Quite. Personally, I think this is just a handicap of people
>brought up by faulty gaming systems.
>
>

Actually, it's easy to overcome- just don't let that player near the character
rules, and he'll never know the difference ;->~

plus- this type of 'power narritive' DOES exist in hero- otherwise there'd
be nothing stopping us from, for instance, unifying all movement powers into
one 'movement' power.



>
> -Tim Gilberg
>
>

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Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:16:42 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!
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On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Rook wrote:

> > I wish to echo Brian/Rook's concept of an 'Advantaged' advantage,
> > basically the flip side of 'limited'. Yes, "You can just do this
> > anyway", but it really helps having it in the rules.
>
> Yeah, and if that argument held any real weaight, we'd drop limited.
> After all, "You can just do that anyway too." Any use of limited is in
> essense a house rule. What one GM see's to be worth -1/2 another will
> see as -1/4, another -1, and yet another might call it -0.
>
> But spelling it out in the rulebook make players feel more
> comfortable with bringing it to the GM, and GM's more comfortable with
> ok'ing it barring it fits the game. Personally I think limited needs a
> magnifying glass on it, just as the 'Advantaged' advantage should have.

Magnifying glass for Limited Power, Stop sign for Advantaged Power (it's
much easier to abuse Create-your-own-Advantage than it is to abuse
Create-your-own-Limitation; the worst you can do in the latter case is to
get a huge discount on your Real cost for a nearly inconsequential
limitation on what a power can do; the worst you can do with the former is
to cancel a built-in restriction that keeps a power from overwhelming the
game - +2A (Aid has no upper limit), for instance...

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: traveler owned process doing -bs
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:42:30 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]
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On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

>
> > > A proper special effect-- Gateman. Gateman creates XDM gates for his power.
> > > A gate big enough to protect an entire area, which shunts all energies that
> > hit it into another dimension, thus protecting the people behind it.
> > >
> > We call this a 'force wall'.
>
> Doesn't fit the effect. The force wall will work based solely on
> the DCs of the incoming attack. The SFX calls for any attack being sucked
> in. As I pointed out earlier, the whole reason why Missile Deflection
> exists is to provide a different mechanic for avoiding damage.

<tongue-firmly-planted-in-cheek>
Then introduce a new Advantage: Infinite Effect (+2Advantage)
Applicable only to attacks and defenses; an Infinite Effect attack is
treated as if it had an infinite number of DCs against any target that
does not have an Infinite Effect defense; likewise, an Infinite Effect
defense will completely neutralize any attack that it defends against,
unless said attack is also Infinite Effect. This Advantage may be
purchased multiple times, in a manner similar to Armor-Piercing/Hardened,
and with similar effects; each level of Infinite Effect on a defense
cancels a single level of Infinite Effect on the attack... The above power
would thus be Force Wall (Infinite Effect), allowing it to stop
anything...

This will be an essential part of the upcoming The Ultimate Power Gamer...

<activating Infinite-Effect Flame Defense...>

<serious note:>

(Note that this is yet another reason why Advantaged Power, if it is put
into H5, should have a stop sign by it - something stronger, if possible.)

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Subject: STR and Presence Attacks (was Re: Point Crocks?????)
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 22:43:14 EST
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>>If we are disagreeing, then you must not
>>think it is right to allow character to add dice to their PRE attacks
>based
>>on violent actions.
>
>Depends on the way you are using your STR and your Presence attack.
>Using
>STR to help w/ a seduction roll is useless. Telling a crowd to calm
>down,
>then bending a lightpost in two would actually reduce the dice of the
>attack, since the action is contrary to the desired result.

If I'm reading the Presence Attack chart correctly, the violent action
bonus applies no matter what. If a character breaks a lightpost over his
knee to intimidate a mob into retreat, this _should_ give a bonus. If
the same character was breaking a lightpost to reinforce a "We come in
peace" speech, then by the book it would be Exhibiting Power (+1d6),
Violent Action (+1d6), Inappropriate Setting (-1d6), Against Existing
Moods (probably -1d6, since many first contact encounters are cautious
rather than instant friendship), for no modifier. Personally, I'd treat
the actions as penalties instead of bonuses for a -4d6, but then you get
rules lawyers yelling "That's not in the book!"

Maybe 5th edition could use an extra paragraph about bonuses only
applying in appropriate settings/situations.

Leah

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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Subject: Re: Hero Templates
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 22:43:15 EST
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>> Do we want to sit down and start doing 'Templates'?
>>
>> If so, we'd need to break it down by the major genre's as well.
>>
>> A system to use might be where a combination of template,
>> package deals, and about 50 points will result in a completed
>character.

Champions III had a random-roll character generator that could probably
be adapted for this.

Leah

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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ideas
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 22:43:15 EST
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>>I would think a character who was cursed to be a werewolf would be an
>>appropiate character concept. However, in the way I am envisioning
>the genre,
>>he would have absolutely no control over his transformations and it
>would be
>>more of a hinderance than a power.
>> If I allow this, I need to also figure out how to prevent the
>PC's
>>from finding out immediately. ('Wow, John, looks like a full moon
>tonight.'
>>"Woof." 'ArrrrgH!' <the shreading ensues>) Would a Limitation (such
>as an
>>aversion to transformation in front of friends) be appropiate in your
>opinion?

If the character knows he's a werewolf, then Psych Lim: Ashamed of
Werewolf Curse or something similar would be appropriate. If all he
knows is that every 28-29 days he has really crazy dreams and his clothes
are a mess the next morning, any Psych Lim would need to be subconscious
-- not that it wouldn't work just as well.

Leah

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Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 22:43:15 EST
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>>I want to hear, as specifically as you care to get, what makes Hero
>less
>>attractive -- assuming that the genre is attractive, and that the
>"feel" of
>>the system (e.g. generally cinematic) is good -- and what scares them
>away?

I bounced this question off a gamer friend who doesn't normally play
Hero. She liked the idea someone came up with of having the new player
describe a character and having the GM or an experienced player translate
the description into a character sheet.

My first Champions character (from whichever edition was released in the
flat cardboard box) took most of an afternoon to write up. Admittedly,
this was a high-power game with no limits on number of disads, but I
can't imagine it taking less time if I'd been working with a "point
budget". I was interested enough in the idea to do the work, but I can
see where some gamers might be turned off by spending that much time just
writing a character. With either pre-gen characters or having someone
else do the math, you can get the new person into a game faster.

Leah

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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Subject: The "Radiation Accident"
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 23:26:15 EST
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I'm working on a campaign (like anyone on this list _isn't_) that will
end up bridging genres. Whenever everyone gets schedule conflicts worked
out, it'll be starting out as a Justice Inc game under 4th edition rules.
In a couple game years, there's going to be a "radiation accident" (I
haven't decided exactly what) that transforms the characters from 75
point normals to 100 or 150 point supers and simultaneously transforms
the game to Golden Age Champions.

Has anyone else on the list tried something like this? Anyone have hints
on running "radiation accidents"? Right now, I'm leaning toward having
the change enhance what the character has been doing in the JI section --
for example, the NPC circus strongman would become even stronger. On the
other hand, it might be interesting to give less obvious powers -- the
NPC I mentioned is only 4 feet tall, giving him Growth, Shrinking, or
Stretching might be fun.

What happens if I get a gadget hound in the JI section of the game? It's
a little difficult to explain how any sort of "radiation accident" would
give someone a gadget pool or powered armor. Also, one player I've
discussed this game with is interested in going through the RA and having
me surprise him with his new powers -- suggestions on how to run this?

Leah

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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: traveler owned process doing -bs
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 22:34:57 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Hero Templates
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On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, John Desmarais wrote:

> On Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:34:01 -0600 (CST), Dataweaver wrote:
>
> >I have access to H4, TUMA, TUM, E4E, and the Almanacs; I would definitely
> >say to use the Ultimate Series as sources, as well Dark Champions and
> >Fantasy Hero.
>
> No, no, no. The point of templates is to make things easier for
> beginners. Beginners probably won't have access to all of those books
> (particularly the Ultimate series).

True enough...

> I would suggest, initially at least, that if this project is going to be
> done, then it be limited to a single genre (four color supers would be
> my choice) and only use what avaiable in the core rules (the BBB). If
> we can actually create something useful without devolving into flamage,
> then there is time to address other genres (or sub genres) later
> (although I would still urge folks to limit themselves to the core
> rules). Remember, we're trying to help beginners.

Agreed... Although I still say that we should try to cover the various
power levels suggested in the Hero System Rulesbook, and attempt to make
the templates as versatile as possible (when you develop a base or a
plug-in, try to think in terms of "how could I make this useful in a
Fantasy Hero or Star Hero campaign, without diluting its usefulness in a
superhero campaign?")

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 21:50:12 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: The "Radiation Accident"
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>What happens if I get a gadget hound in the JI section of the game? It's
>a little difficult to explain how any sort of "radiation accident" would
>give someone a gadget pool or powered armor. Also, one player I've
>discussed this game with is interested in going through the RA and having
>me surprise him with his new powers -- suggestions on how to run this?

well he could find an alien tech cache, or develop a mental affinity for his
gear, or some wierd DrManhattan accident could give him powers

----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:54:53 -0800
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On Wednesday, February 04, 1998 4:15 PM, Anthony Jackson wrote:


>Filksinger writes:
>> I think there should be one.
>>
>> A proper special effect-- Gateman. Gateman creates XDM gates for
his power.
>> A gate big enough to protect an entire area, which shunts all
energies that
>hit it into another dimension, thus protecting the people behind it.
>>
>
>We call this a 'force wall'.

Nope. I've been GMing for 15 years in this system. If it was that
easy, I'd have figured it out for myself.

Gateman's gates holes in space, leading to another dimension. As such,
they cannot be broken. No matter how much energy goes through them,
you just can't hurt a hole. Force Wall does not simulate this.

Filksinger

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Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 00:06:15 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Sample templates...
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On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote:

>
> Why doesn't someone check Champions III (IIRC)? Isn't that the one with the
> Champions random character generation tables?
>
> It had base stats for bricks, martial artists, energy projectors and
> mentallists, and then you rolled on the charts to add extra powers (like
> extra STR or invisibility or a flash attack, etc.)
>
> Possibly those base stats could be made into templates.

Good idea! CIII is, IIRC, mostly compatable with H4, so it shouldn't be
too hard to adapt to this purpose. Also, should things like Martial
Artist and Battlesuit be bases, or plug-ins?

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: The "Radiation Accident"
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 00:55:57 -0800
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On Wednesday, February 04, 1998 8:20 PM, Leah L. Watts wrote:


<snip>
>What happens if I get a gadget hound in the JI section of the game?
It's
>a little difficult to explain how any sort of "radiation accident"
would
>give someone a gadget pool or powered armor.

Here's some possibilities. The radiation accident gives him super
gadgeteering genius. The radiation accident is caused by alien
technology, and he gets the technology. The gadgeteer gets super
strength, and the gadgets get more powerful and very heavy. The
gadgeteer gets energy powers that power gadgets that anyone else would
need to plug into a high-voltage line.

Filksinger

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 04:11:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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Subject: Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]
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> >> A proper special effect-- Gateman. Gateman creates XDM gates for
> his power.
> >> A gate big enough to protect an entire area, which shunts all
> energies that
> >hit it into another dimension, thus protecting the people behind it.
> >>
> >
> Nope. I've been GMing for 15 years in this system. If it was that
> easy, I'd have figured it out for myself.
>
> Gateman's gates holes in space, leading to another dimension. As such,
> they cannot be broken. No matter how much energy goes through them,
> you just can't hurt a hole. Force Wall does not simulate this.

I personally would say this is one of those things Champions doesn't
simulate well because it is an absolute. There is no chance of it not
working because it's a gate already there, so not missle deflection. It's
not a force wall since nothing can possibly get through. Could someone
even get close enough to punch? Or would they also get sucked away?

I can see it as a forcewall, with the SFX being that the gate can only
handle so much at a time before collapsing. Other than this, I'd hope he
was an NPC:)



Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 09:15:31 +0000
From: Stephen McGinness <smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk>
Organization: Camborne School of Mines
Subject: Organising the Template Quest
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Brian Wong wrote:
> I think we need to set a few more ground rules before we start tossing
> off templates.

Seemed to get very big very quickly didn't it??
:-)

There is obviously enthusiasm for participation in
this thing but this seems to be causing it to
spiral out of control. I think the discussion is
brilliant and it should continue with al kinds of
templates etc being discussed etc but perhaps a
few people remaining out of the discussion to try
and extract the good bits.

Now both Rook here, and John Desmarais somewhere
else have promised to host this thing and so I
think to keep it organised we should let these two
fine Heroes co-ordinate the whole thing. That
means letting them go away and discuss the finer
points of power settings etc then come back to the
list. They will need a host of fine thoughts and
ideas for plug-ins and package deals etc and
that's where we come in!!

Any problems so far??

I am also in favour of intially limiting the
discussion to one genre and core books as has also
been suggested. Once the ground rules have been
established then perhaps smaller groups of
interested people can get together, thrash out a
few templates for alternative genres and bring
those to the list.

Perhaps the most useful thing we could do just now
is get an idea of who is interested in taking
part, what genres they are interested in
contributing to in a major way, and getting the
discussion groups narrowed down so that the list
actually sees only some of the more refined
ideas??


Stephen McGinness

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 09:25:19 +0000
From: Stephen McGinness <smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk>
Organization: Camborne School of Mines
Subject: Re: The "Radiation Accident"
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Leah L Watts wrote:
> Has anyone else on the list tried something like this? Anyone have hints

It's been knocked about a few times. I think
Dragonfly was one of the people who have done it??
Are you there Aldo?

> What happens if I get a gadget hound in the JI section of the game? It's
> a little difficult to explain how any sort of "radiation accident" would
> give someone a gadget pool or powered armor. Also, one player I've

The problem is that you are thinking of radiation
accident purely in terms of Fantastic Four type
stuff. The "radiation accident" could be any kind
of supernatural event that results in players
making major changes to their character sheets
and/or becoming more powerful. Remember "The
Champions" TV series?? They went through a
radiation accident type thing at the start to gain
their powers and that was through a mystical
pseudo religious event IIRC. I'd wait to see the
characters you have before deciding the what
actual defining radiation accident experiece will
be. Alien enhancements, exposure to "cosmic rays",
gifts from the gods, etc.

> discussed this game with is interested in going through the RA and having
> me surprise him with his new powers -- suggestions on how to run this?

It was discussed I think in either CII or CIII how
to put together mystery powers and mystery disads.
Often I would have several ideas hanging around
without deciding what to give to the player until
they are in a situation where some power might be
useful, and then at a crucial moment have the
power emerge. It makes for great fun if the timing
is right and often looks like you had the whole
thing planned. Keep discussing through the
scenarios etc what you think would be appropriate
for the character and you will have a stock of
ideas to use when the time comes.


Stephen McGinness

> Leah

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Comments: Authenticated sender is <mlnunn@mail.blue.net>
From: "Michael Nunn" <mlnunn@bnllc2.blue.net>
Organization: Rising Force Publications
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 12:09:10 +0000
Subject: Template Info
Reply-to: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net
Priority: normal
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I have been watching the template creation and would like to offer my
help. When the templates are finished I would like to Print them in
the next Herozine and put them on our web site as well. Plus I think
someone should ask Bruce Harlick if he would like to put them on the
Hero games site, or maybe mark would like to put them on the GRG
site.


Michael Nunn




"Herozine" Rising Force Publications "SUPER" RPG 'zine,
check out our web site at:
http://users.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm

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X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 07:13:47 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: The "Radiation Accident"
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>What happens if I get a gadget hound in the JI section of the game? It's
>a little difficult to explain how any sort of "radiation accident" would
>give someone a gadget pool or powered armor.

If the character happened to have the right sort of gadgets initially, the
"weird mystical energies" in the accident could allow him to internalize
their functions.
If the character has a visor with various vision-enhancing lenses, for
example, destroy the visor in the accident but leave the character with
UV/IR Vision, Enhanced Sight, etc. If he had a set of mechanical arms,
have them bond to him cybernetically as Extra Limbs. If he has a
directable Force Field, give him TK of his own. This won't work very well
with all Powers, like Flight. The initial Focus was probably some sort of
jetpack...not likely to turn in to wings.

Also, one player I've
>discussed this game with is interested in going through the RA and having
>me surprise him with his new powers -- suggestions on how to run this?

This might work best with inexperienced players, especially those than
haven't played AD&D. I tried this a couple of times, once with longtime
AD&D gamers, veterans of those Monty Haul games where magic items are raked
in by the bushel and players fall into habits like "I taste the potion...do
I feel any stronger? lighter? like I suddenly have an affinity for
dragons?" or "I point the wand at that tree...Magic Missile! No.
Fireball! No. Polymorph!" These guys basically ran down the list of powers
in the BBB, trying to activate each one through an effort of will to see
what they could do. Fortunately, I wasn't using off-the-shelf powers in a
couple of cases. I'd built "Expansion" (Growth and Desolidification
linked) and "Compression" (Shrinking and Density Increase linked) so that
things didn't go quite as expected.

I think making the new Powers Uncontrolled or Triggered would be good,
creating some opportunities for you to set the powers off and thereby give
the player hints about the new parameters of his abilities.

Damon

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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Subject: Re: Sample template (very rough draft)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 98 08:28:04 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 2/4/98 4:01 PM John Desmarais (johndesmarais@yahoo.com) Said:

>The change in PD and ED I can see, but why raise the EGO and PRE on a
>template?

Because, as these templates are for use by beginners, those stats are the
most overlooked by beginners, yet are very important to good role-playing.

Plus, almost every single Hero should be at least slightly above normal
in both of these areas.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 13:47:06
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]]
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Tokyo Mark wrote:
> > >> A proper special effect-- Gateman. Gateman creates XDM gates for
> > his power.
> > >> A gate big enough to protect an entire area, which shunts all
> > energies that
> > >hit it into another dimension, thus protecting the people behind it.
> > >>
> > >
> > Nope. I've been GMing for 15 years in this system. If it was that
> > easy, I'd have figured it out for myself.
> >
> > Gateman's gates holes in space, leading to another dimension. As such,
> > they cannot be broken. No matter how much energy goes through them,
> > you just can't hurt a hole. Force Wall does not simulate this.
>
> I personally would say this is one of those things Champions doesn't
> simulate well because it is an absolute. There is no chance of it not
> working because it's a gate already there, so not missle deflection.

I didn't say anything about its being already there. Gateman's gates are very temporary, it lasts for under a second.

>It's
> not a force wall since nothing can possibly get through. Could someone
> even get close enough to punch? Or would they also get sucked away?

Depends upon SFX. If you can't punch, then the gate is also XDM UAO AE. Attempt to punch, and you pass through into another universe. This would probably also have the Gate limitation from Mystic Masters, where it stays open between phases (so someone acting after Gateman can follow him through the gate, even if he doesn't want them to), people can look or shoot through it, and something can travel out of it as well as into it.


>can only
> handle so much at a time before collapsing. Other than this, I'd hope he
> was an NPC:)

Preferably, no matter how this works out.

Filksinger


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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 13:54:03
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]]
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
> F> Gateman's gates holes in space, leading to another dimension. As such,
> F> they cannot be broken. No matter how much energy goes through them,
> F> you just can't hurt a hole. Force Wall does not simulate this.
>
> Like I previously stated, this is worth a hell of a lot more than the 60
> points of Missile Deflection w/ a +2 advantage costs. You are trying to
> create an absolute defense in Hero, a thing the system does not even
> consider as viable.
>
Save that it already exists in Missile Deflection. (Whether or not it should is a different matter.)

This is nothing but an extention to allow Missile Deflection to affect AE attacks of types that it would already affect if they weren't AE. This is not such a massive change.

Now, I don't necessarilly think that this would be a good thing (I'm not certain Missile Deflection is a good thing), but it is hardly a game-breaking thing.

Filksinger


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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 14:00:07
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!]
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
<snip>

> Other wordings can reflect the wordings in Limited Power, with a little
> extra emphasis on how this can easily be made too sweeping and therefore
> abused.
> Listed examples can include using different Characteristics against
> Entangle, using Missile Deflection against Area Effect or non-Ranged
> attacks, and similar unusual effects.

Create a short list of examples of Advantages that shouldn't be allowed, and show why. Broad catagories, such as Advantages that could be created by Linking other powers, for example, as well as narrow categories. Show a player creating them, and what happened to the poor GM who let them through without thinking about it carefully.

Additionally, it should be clearly spelled out that any Advantage that proves detrimental to the campaign can be withdrawn at any time by the GM. This is to give the GM a clear out, when he would be reluctant otherwise to revoke a character ability he had already allowed.

Filksinger


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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Subject: Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 98 09:28:27 -0500
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From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 2/4/98 4:24 PM Filksinger (filkhero@usa.net) Said:

>A proper special effect-- Gateman. Gateman creates XDM gates for his
>power. A gate big enough to protect an entire area, which shunts all
>energies that hit it into another dimension, thus protecting the people
>behind it.

Personally speaking, that simply sounds like the Sfx of a Force Wall, not
the need for a new adv.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Template Power level (Re: Sample template (very rough draft))
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 06:33:03 -0800 (PST)
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[snip sample stats]
> > > ---
> > > 124
> > >
> > > Yeah, a lot of things are "too low" for a brick. This is a
> > > template, not a finished character.
>
> Great template, Rat. This is about exactly where I would
> put it.
> I might take the PRE down to 10, however. I can think of some meek
> Bricks.
>

I dunno, the way I was thinking here, the base should present
final stats. The plugins could + or - it from there.
What I'm seeing is bases should balance to 150 points and
present the stats/skills that are common across 80-90% of the
archetype.
Each plugin should balance to about 25 points and make adds
and reduction to the base. This would mean a character could be
put together with a base, and 2 to 3 plugins, leaving 25 to 50
points to customize.
Of the plugins, one would be a archetype based plugin,
one a background plugin (under which, we would make the 'man with
no history' as a plugin as well), and one an 'other' plugin taken
from either your base, another base, a second background, or from
those in the 'other' section.

After you get to this point, you'd have your 25 to 50 points
to spend.

From there you'd move to disads. and these could be done
by choosing from premade lists or designing your own.

One thing that could be done there is 'bunches' of disads.
sort of like bundling a few of them together to give certain
common themes.

Power level should be as per the BBB characters.

which is active 40-60, ave 50. Speed 5.5, etc.

I'll be the first to admit that I have problems with that
power level, but it is a published standard, and so should be
stuck to for something designed to be generic.

(I think BBB character's all need about 10 - 15 more PRE
and a few more background skills. Other's may have problems with
the speed/Dex, but keep in mind we need to shoot not for our own
prefs, but the published standard, since this is something we need
to present for newbies. If we get a mod made to the books suggested
power levels, then we can adjust this. But I doubt we'll ever
agree on what that mod should be.)

From the BBB I'm seeing trends somewhat like this:

Bricks tend to come in at 50 Str, 18 Dex, 5 Spd, 23 or 28 Con.
20-25 PD/ED

EB's tend to come in at 10 STr, 20 Dex, 6 Spd, 20 Con, 15-20 PD/ED

MA's 20 Str, 23-28 Dex, 6.5 Spd, 18 Con, 15 Pd/Ed

Egoists: none in BBB that I recall, I'll have to dig for some in my
books that fit the 250 50 active power level.

Speedster: as per Egoist

Somethings missing, but I just woke up... :) maybe it will
come to me.

In the numbers above where I gave a range it's because I'm
guessing and not sure. My BBB is not in front of me.



Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 06:38:38 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!
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At 06:06 PM 2/4/1998 -0800, Rook wrote:
> But spelling it out in the rulebook make players feel more comfortable
with
>bringing it
>to the GM, and GM's more comfortable with ok'ing it barring it fits the game.
>Personally I
>think limited needs a magnifying glass on it, just as the 'Advantaged'
>advantage should have.

An "Advantaged" Advantage (I suggest calling it "Enhanced Power")
shouldn't have a magnifying glass next to it; it should have a Stop Sign.
It's wording should also be very narrow, such as:
"This Advantage allows the mechanics of a Power to have some game effect
that it normally would not have. Similar to Limited Power, Enhanced Power
is a catch-all that can be used if a player can't find the Advantage he
wants anywhere else. It is best used for relatively minor effects, however.
"The Enhanced Power Examples table below shows some Enhanced Power
Advantages and their Cost Multipliers. If a player wants a Power Advantage
not listed on the table, the GM should assign a bonus based on the list
below, other Power Advantages, and the relative costs of Powers that have
the desired effect versus those that do not.
"Players should only use this Advantage (whether using one of the
Advantages on the table, below, or a custom-fit one) with the GM's
permission, and the GM should watch its use very closely. If not monitored
carefully, this can be a very dangerous Advantage to allow into a campaign.
The desired Advantage must be clearly called for by the Special Effect of
the Power."
Other wordings can reflect the wordings in Limited Power, with a little
extra emphasis on how this can easily be made too sweeping and therefore
abused.
Listed examples can include using different Characteristics against
Entangle, using Missile Deflection against Area Effect or non-Ranged
attacks, and similar unusual effects.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:

F> Gateman's gates holes in space, leading to another dimension. As such,
F> they cannot be broken. No matter how much energy goes through them,
F> you just can't hurt a hole. Force Wall does not simulate this.

Like I previously stated, this is worth a hell of a lot more than the 60
points of Missile Deflection w/ a +2 advantage costs. You are trying to
create an absolute defense in Hero, a thing the system does not even
consider as viable.

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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Advantaged Advantage Proposal (Re: [Modify Deflection?)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 06:48:53 -0800 (PST)
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> <serious note:>
>
> (Note that this is yet another reason why Advantaged Power, if it is put
> into H5, should have a stop sign by it - something stronger, if possible.)
>

Ok, something like this:

Advantaged:
If no other reasonable method can be found to construct an effect,
a power may have a new advantage added onto it. All such advantages MUST
be approved by the GM. The GM sets the value and exact details of the new
advantage, based on the players proposal. The GM must reserve the right to
disallow any proposed advantage if they feel it would upset the balance,
flow, or feel of the game. This method of modifying a power should be used
with extreme caution and is not intended for inexperienced players or GMs.
A new GM should also reserve the right to disallow any new advantages on
the grounds of not yet being comfortable with the inner workings of the
games play balance.
To construct a new advantage, take a close look at the effect desired.
If possible, use limitations or a substitute power to achieve the effect. If
this does not achieve the desired effect; come up with a detailed description
of the advantage and all it's possible game effects. The GM should examine
this proposal and weigh it against the needs of the game, it's power level,
and feel. The GM should make any modifications needed and either assign a
value or turn down the request. The value assigned should range from +1/4 to
+2 and should be based on the advantages usefulness when compared to other
advantages. If it's effectiveness seems to make it worth more than +2, it
is recommended that it be stripped down a bit in utility.


Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 07:01:06 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: The "Radiation Accident"
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At 11:26 PM 2/4/1998 EST, Leah L Watts wrote:
>I'm working on a campaign (like anyone on this list _isn't_) that will
>end up bridging genres. Whenever everyone gets schedule conflicts worked
>out, it'll be starting out as a Justice Inc game under 4th edition rules.
> In a couple game years, there's going to be a "radiation accident" (I
>haven't decided exactly what) that transforms the characters from 75
>point normals to 100 or 150 point supers and simultaneously transforms
>the game to Golden Age Champions.

Just as a minor tip: It's entirely possible that, after a couple of
game years, the characters will have garnered 25 (or more) experience
points. Thus, any new Powers and such can probably be paid for entirely by
new Disadvantages, rather than by added Base Points. (Of course, any new
Disadvantages should reflect the new Powers they have, like someone with
cold powers would be Vulnerable to flame.)

>Has anyone else on the list tried something like this? Anyone have hints
>on running "radiation accidents"? Right now, I'm leaning toward having
>the change enhance what the character has been doing in the JI section --
>for example, the NPC circus strongman would become even stronger. On the
>other hand, it might be interesting to give less obvious powers -- the
>NPC I mentioned is only 4 feet tall, giving him Growth, Shrinking, or
>Stretching might be fun.

Where possible, do something that's just a little "off the beaten
track." This four-foot-tall circus strongman might be most appropriate for
just a little extra STR, plus a few levels of Growth that are 0 END
Persistent, and just enough PD and ED to make him competitive against
supervillains. He might decide that he's tired of being literally "looked
down on" all the time, and keep one level going all the time, then surprise
others when he needs to be short again by turning it off. I don't have any
good suggestions for particularly appropriate new Disadvantages, though.

>What happens if I get a gadget hound in the JI section of the game? It's
>a little difficult to explain how any sort of "radiation accident" would
>give someone a gadget pool or powered armor. Also, one player I've
>discussed this game with is interested in going through the RA and having
>me surprise him with his new powers -- suggestions on how to run this?

What I would tend to do with the gadgeteer would be to allow the
character a sudden "jump" in INT, enabling him to create a gadget pool.
(He might also end up with a Vulnerability to Mental Powers, taking 2X EGO
from Ego Attacks and 2X Effect from other Mental Powers.)
As for the other fellow, just take a look a what you're doing to the
other characters, and give him something that would round out the team as
far as superhero archetype is concerned. Maybe you're short a speedster,
or need someone with classic energy projection powers (though note that
"classic" energy projectors as we knkown them were much less common in the
Golden Age than in the Silver Age). He could end up with the abilities of
a certain animal, especially if he owns such an animal for a pet. Or he
could end up just being what I call a "Weird Talent," like Spider-Man and
Nightcrawler, whose main offensive ability is using an ability that is
usually not an offensive ability in an offensive manner, usually in order
to provide surprise.
---
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Template Power level (Re: Sample template (very rough draft))
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>>>>> "BW" == Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes:

BW> I dunno, the way I was thinking here, the base should present
BW> final stats. The plugins could + or - it from there.

Then by your definition the "base" is not final.

In order to keep things simple, the template should be the absolute minimum
that is considered viable for that particular type of character. Each plug
should add -- never remove -- whatever is necessary to bring the character
up to standard campaign guidelines. Whatever points are left over are for
the player to use to flesh out the character.

To throw out some numbers, given a standard 250-point campaign with a 12DC
damage cap, the characteristics template should be 100 points for
characters driven by powers (energy projectors, mentalists), 125 points for
characters driven by characteristics (bricks, martial artists). Each plug
should be 100 points for power-based character, 75 points for
characteristics-based characters. That adds up to 200-point,
two-dimensional characters that will be competitive.

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X-Authentication-Warning: xanadu.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:06:16 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: The "Radiation Accident"
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On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Leah L Watts wrote:

> What happens if I get a gadget hound in the JI section of the game? It's
> a little difficult to explain how any sort of "radiation accident" would
> give someone a gadget pool or powered armor.

Assuming you're talking about a literal 'radiation accident' or soemthing
similar (as opposed to alternate versions like gifts from alien beings,
etc) I would say that the incident heightened his understanding of
mechanics and electronics to the point where he's become a
'super-inventor' or some such. A large gadget pool, changable only in the
lab, perhaps some sort of 'sense schematic' power so he can understand
what a particular piece of machinery is and how to use it just by studying
it for a bit, maybe even a smaller 'improvised gadget pool' that he chan
change in the field to do MacGyver-type tricks.


J


The Inestimable Dr. Thaddeus V. Nuncheon jeffj@io.com
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Template Power level (Re: Sample template)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 07:08:33 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> From the BBB I'm seeing trends somewhat like this:
>
> Bricks tend to come in at 50 Str, 18 Dex, 5 Spd, 23 or 28 Con.
> 20-25 PD/ED
>
> EB's tend to come in at 10 STr, 20 Dex, 6 Spd, 20 Con, 15-20 PD/ED
>
> MA's 20 Str, 23-28 Dex, 6.5 Spd, 18 Con, 15 Pd/Ed
>
> Egoists: none in BBB that I recall, I'll have to dig for some in my
> books that fit the 250 50 active power level.
>
> Speedster: as per Egoist
>
> Somethings missing, but I just woke up... :) maybe it will
> come to me.
>

Oh yes, the gadgeteer/power armor types. In my 13 years with
Champions, I've never once made a gadget based PC, and I tend to forget
about them until a player shows up with one. :) I'm probably the least
qualified person out there to make judgements on what they'd need. :)
(I wonder if I've even ever used one as an NPC... can't think of
any off hand.)
Naturally, when I got Dark Champions and discovered it was a no
super beings world, my first thought was, great, a whole party of MA's. :)
(I could see the setting, but with powers. Though these days I'm
definatly 4color-retro)


Also I missed the mimic/power drainer.

The sorcerer type could either be a subset of several of these,
or as a true mage with a VPP; something best left out of a newbie pack.

What else is there?

> In the numbers above where I gave a range it's because I'm
> guessing and not sure. My BBB is not in front of me.

Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 07:15:28 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 54

>
> F> Gateman's gates holes in space, leading to another dimension. As such,
> F> they cannot be broken. No matter how much energy goes through them,
> F> you just can't hurt a hole. Force Wall does not simulate this.
>
> Like I previously stated, this is worth a hell of a lot more than the 60
> points of Missile Deflection w/ a +2 advantage costs. You are trying to
> create an absolute defense in Hero, a thing the system does not even
> consider as viable.

True.
However it is a valid special effect. This brings up another quirk of Hero.

Let's say I have a 'gate' power. Ie an area effect usable against
other's extra dimensional movement. Anyone who enters the area goes to
dimension X (No pass Go, no collecting $200). Yet by special effect, it
should grab objects there as well. It should grab a passing projectile, or
a beam of energy. Of course in Hero, it doesn't. Letting it do so would
open a whole new can of worms, but genre-simulation wise is valid.
(If it isn't obvious from this and past posts, I tend to care about
genre-simulation more than play balance. But I do see the other side
of the coin sometimes.)

Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 15:49:00 +0000
From: Stephen McGinness <smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk>
Organization: Camborne School of Mines
CC: champ-l@org.omg
Subject: Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]
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Brian Wong wrote:
> Let's say I have a 'gate' power. Ie an area effect usable against
> other's extra dimensional movement. Anyone who enters the area goes to
> dimension X (No pass Go, no collecting $200). Yet by special effect, it
> should grab objects there as well. It should grab a passing projectile, or
> a beam of energy. Of course in Hero, it doesn't. Letting it do so would
> open a whole new can of worms, but genre-simulation wise is valid.

Well, I think there is a case here for GM
discretion. The teleport power does allow for the
creation of a gate that stays open (i'm sure it
does, though I don't have it in front of me!!) and
if that does allow unrestricted passage of
material and energy then it could conceivably be
used in this manner. It would all depend on being
able to open it quickly enough in the right place.
I'd say that the power is there, it the use of it
that is in discussion....

There is also the moral dilemma of ensuring that
there is no suffering at the other side of the
portal because of the re-diverted energy you
shunted through there.

Stephen

> (If it isn't obvious from this and past posts, I tend to care about
> genre-simulation more than play balance. But I do see the other side
> of the coin sometimes.)
>
> Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
> __
> /.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
> \(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:00:09 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]
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> > Gateman's gates holes in space, leading to another dimension. As such,
> > they cannot be broken. No matter how much energy goes through them,
> > you just can't hurt a hole. Force Wall does not simulate this.
>
> I personally would say this is one of those things Champions doesn't
> simulate well because it is an absolute. There is no chance of it not
> working because it's a gate already there, so not missle deflection. It's
> not a force wall since nothing can possibly get through. Could someone
> even get close enough to punch? Or would they also get sucked away?
>
> I can see it as a forcewall, with the SFX being that the gate can only
> handle so much at a time before collapsing. Other than this, I'd hope he
> was an NPC:)


Missile Deflection could work if it was assumed that some attacks
wouldn't be sucked in, but the gate would stay up.

Another option is a AE Dispell with enough power to affect
everything. This is a powerful effect, after all.



-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:07:08 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Sample template (very rough draft)
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> >The change in PD and ED I can see, but why raise the EGO and PRE on a
> >template?
>
> Because, as these templates are for use by beginners, those stats are the
> most overlooked by beginners, yet are very important to good role-playing.
>
> Plus, almost every single Hero should be at least slightly above normal
> in both of these areas.

Matter of opinion. Especially for beginning heroes, it's an idea
that is probably wrong.

Heroes with no experience probably haven't a stronger sense of
will or are necessarily more impressive.

Of course, I'd recommend purchase of both in the section on
"Fleshing out your character."



-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:09:58 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]
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> F> Gateman's gates holes in space, leading to another dimension. As such,
> F> they cannot be broken. No matter how much energy goes through them,
> F> you just can't hurt a hole. Force Wall does not simulate this.
>
> Like I previously stated, this is worth a hell of a lot more than the 60
> points of Missile Deflection w/ a +2 advantage costs. You are trying to
> create an absolute defense in Hero, a thing the system does not even
> consider as viable.


Sure it is. Try 100% damage reduction, UBO. It should work just
fine. It'd require a house rule, though one that will probably make the
5th edition -- if reason prevails.

Oh, and it'd be pretty expensive.



-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:13:26 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]
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> True.
> However it is a valid special effect. This brings up another quirk of Hero.
>
> Let's say I have a 'gate' power. Ie an area effect usable against
> other's extra dimensional movement. Anyone who enters the area goes to
> dimension X (No pass Go, no collecting $200). Yet by special effect, it
> should grab objects there as well. It should grab a passing projectile, or
> a beam of energy. Of course in Hero, it doesn't. Letting it do so would
> open a whole new can of worms, but genre-simulation wise is valid.

I don't know. I could see it grabbing projectiles and beams of
light. The problem is that those attacks will not just stop upon hitting
the gate. They will continue through to do damage on the other side.
Just the justification needed for some foul being to come out, quite angry
at being awakened. Or maybe they cause the gate to fall, it not being
able to handle the force of attacks.


-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 08:43:56 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 10:09 AM 2/5/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> F> Gateman's gates holes in space, leading to another dimension. As such,
>> F> they cannot be broken. No matter how much energy goes through them,
>> F> you just can't hurt a hole. Force Wall does not simulate this.
>>
>> Like I previously stated, this is worth a hell of a lot more than the 60
>> points of Missile Deflection w/ a +2 advantage costs. You are trying to
>> create an absolute defense in Hero, a thing the system does not even
>> consider as viable.
>
> Sure it is. Try 100% damage reduction, UBO. It should work just
>fine. It'd require a house rule, though one that will probably make the
>5th edition -- if reason prevails.
>
> Oh, and it'd be pretty expensive.

I've mentioned this on the list before, but I once GMed for a PC whose
sole power was 100% Damage Reduction, resistant, Physical and Energy.
Since this cost 240 points, there wasn't room for any attacks, and he was
still an interesting and viable character.
(And before anyone asks how I could let a player get away with something
as outrageous as that: I didn't. I set this game up where the players
design the normals, and I assigned superpowers. This seemed like just the
perfect ability for the wimpy milquetoast I was given. Hey, the BMOC got
lots of Growth, so.... And I think this would be a great thing to do for
that player who always has to have the Biggest Attack Ever Seen.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm


Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Authentication-Warning: bermuda.io.com: traveler owned process doing -bs
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:48:27 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Sample template (very rough draft)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Thu, 5 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

>
> > >The change in PD and ED I can see, but why raise the EGO and PRE on a
> > >template?
> >
> > Because, as these templates are for use by beginners, those stats are the
> > most overlooked by beginners, yet are very important to good role-playing.
> >
> > Plus, almost every single Hero should be at least slightly above normal
> > in both of these areas.
>
> Matter of opinion. Especially for beginning heroes, it's an idea
> that is probably wrong.

It depends if you're talking about beginning players, or beginning
characters; we're definitely talking about the former, and we may or may
not be talking about the latter. Are we?

> Heroes with no experience probably haven't a stronger sense of
> will or are necessarily more impressive.
>
> Of course, I'd recommend purchase of both in the section on
> "Fleshing out your character."

Another note: I tend to agree that plug-ins should probably not contain
very many minuses in them, as this has the distinct problem of not
neccessarily being portable across the various bases (let's say that your
Brick-based 25-pt. plug-in reduces STR from 50 down to STR 40 -
reasonable, for a Brick. But now try to apply it to a Mentalist, with a
base STR of 10...)

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Template Power level (Re: Sample template (very rough draft))
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 08:59:24 -0800 (PST)
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X-UID: 70

> BW> I dunno, the way I was thinking here, the base should present
> BW> final stats. The plugins could + or - it from there.
>
> Then by your definition the "base" is not final.
>
No. Nothing is truly final until a character is complete.
The base presents a 'final' of what a common character in a given archetype
will look like stat wise, plus the workings of the most common power effects.

> In order to keep things simple, the template should be the absolute minimum
> that is considered viable for that particular type of character. Each plug
> should add -- never remove -- whatever is necessary to bring the character
> up to standard campaign guidelines.

This locks things in a bit too much. It means you have to guess the
minimum ever possible.
It's better to shoot for averages; as these are much easier to pin
down and stick to. That why the base present more or less final stats for
the common example of an archetype. From there it can be modified up or down
by plugin. This also makes a character with a plugin from a diferent base more
viable. Which is also a possible argument for a lower base so that the plugin
can hold enough to keep the viability of cross plugin usage. Something to
consider.


> Whatever points are left over are for
> the player to use to flesh out the character.
>

The base, at 150 points, is more than just stats. It is a compilation
of everything which a given archetype tends to contain in 80-90% of all
uses of that archetype.
The special effects definaitions of what's in that base are set in the
plugin, which contains whatever mods are needed to change that base into a
given sub-archetype. This is mostly add ons, but may remove some things not
seen in certain sub-archetypes.

This is done so that when you view a given base, you have a pretty
good idea what you're getting into. It's also done to
make all bases have a standard cost. Thereby allowing plugins, which also
have a standard cost, to be swapped around much easier.

150 should be enough to fit all the stuff that's common across a given
archetype. It's a handy number in that it allows the plugins to be a neat
25 points, and allows up to four of them. Three being recommended.

Another idea would be a base of 130, with 3 30 point plug ins and 30
freebies.
Or 120 base, 2 50 point plugins, and 30 freebies.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:05:14 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 69

> > > Gateman's gates holes in space, leading to another dimension. As such,
> > > they cannot be broken. No matter how much energy goes through them,
> > > you just can't hurt a hole. Force Wall does not simulate this.
> >
> > I personally would say this is one of those things Champions doesn't
> > simulate well because it is an absolute. There is no chance of it not
> > working because it's a gate already there, so not missle deflection. It's
> > not a force wall since nothing can possibly get through. Could someone
> > even get close enough to punch? Or would they also get sucked away?
> >
>
> Another option is a AE Dispell with enough power to affect
> everything. This is a powerful effect, after all.
>
Even this would not stop powers passing through.
Example, Portal has this defense going in the area above him.
Meanwhile, in orbit in a spacesuit, Sharpshooter is aiming his laser ray
rifle and carefully calibrating to blast portal. He is way away from portal
and his power.

Sharpshooter fires his rifle.

Special effects call: the laser makes it's way down and is then sucked into
dimension X.
Rules Call: Sharpshooter is out of the area of the gateway, so he hits Portal.

Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:09:49 -0600 (CST)
Subject: The "Radiation Accident"
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At 11:26 PM 2/4/1998 EST, Leah L Watts wrote:


>Has anyone else on the list tried something like this? Anyone have hints
>on running "radiation accidents"? Right now, I'm leaning toward having
>the change enhance what the character has been doing in the JI section --

Either this, or have the change based on the character's personality,
like Wildcards. A pilot might gain the ability to fly, for instance.
Of course, 'what the character has been doing' and the personality might
already be similar. But it might not.

There was a good point made about waiting for characters to be written
before working everything out. Also, if you haven't, you might think about
having DIFFERENT 'radiation accidents' at different TIMES. All of the
characters don't have to be affected by the same thing.



Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:41:42 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Template Info
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---Michael Nunn wrote:
>
> I have been watching the template creation and would like to offer my
> help. When the templates are finished I would like to Print them in
> the next Herozine and put them on our web site as well. Plus I think
> someone should ask Bruce Harlick if he would like to put them on the
> Hero games site, or maybe mark would like to put them on the GRG
> site.
>
>
> Michael Nunn

Cool.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Sample template (very rough draft)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:50:02 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> It depends if you're talking about beginning players, or beginning
> characters; we're definitely talking about the former, and we may or may
> not be talking about the latter. Are we?
>
Beginning players I'd say.

> Another note: I tend to agree that plug-ins should probably not contain
> very many minuses in them, as this has the distinct problem of not
> neccessarily being portable across the various bases (let's say that your
> Brick-based 25-pt. plug-in reduces STR from 50 down to STR 40 -
> reasonable, for a Brick. But now try to apply it to a Mentalist, with a
> base STR of 10...)

That's one point to consider. Brick's MA's, and Speedsters tend to
have a lot of their 'power' in the stats.
Taken to it's extreme, this view could be used to justify having
only one base. Say about 100 points of the things every Super has in common.
Then plugins modify from there.

Having minuses in the plugins is going to happen though. You just
can't preguess the minimum ever that easy. Much easier to guess the averages.

I'm almost thinking it should be one base, then an archetype
plugin, then a sub archetype plugin, then background plugin. Leaving one
more plugin and a few freebies.

Also, it could be argued that the pluging that reduces the Str by 10
it pretty 'brick specific' and shouldn't be taken by a non brick unless
you wish to readjust it with your freebies.

The exhistance of the background plugin means that the freebie points
would most likely go into what?
Fixing problems with mismatched plugins (going to happen no matter
how they're built.)?
Buying up things deemed to low?
Meshing the diferences in better?
More backgound fleshing?
Mix of all of these?

I think no matter how it's done, several of the plugins are going to
end up being pretty archetype specific. In fact, only a small few of them
will mix well. The final thrid plugin will most likely be filled by taking
a second background plugin, or a plugin from a list of others.

Of course, that's assuming three plugins and a base.

It could be two plugins and a base. But definatly not just one
plugin.


Some other ideas:

120 base. 1 80 point power plugin 1 25 point background plugin, 25 freebies
(This seems to locked in to me)

100 base 2 50 point power plugins, 25 background plugin, 25 freebies.



Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "Desmarais, John" <jdesmara@novanthealth.org>
Subject: Templates - compiled ideas
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 12:50:39 -0500
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Yowza! Ya know, it's kinda neat when an idea strikes a chord with a
whole lotta folks on this list, but doesn't produce flames.

Anyways, here's kind of a compilation and distilation of the ideas that
have been posted regarding guidelines for templates, along with my
suggestion for a compromise between the two dissimilar ideas.

---------------------

250 Point Campaign

Power levels per BBB recommendations.

I would strongly recommend only using the core rules (the BBB) as most
new players are probably going to have only that.

Characteristic Based
Bricks [50STR, 18DEX, 5SPD, 25CON]
Martial Aritists [20STR, 25DEX, 6.5SPD, 18CON, 15PD/ED]
Speedsters

Power Based
Energy Projectors [10STR, 20DEX, 6SPD, 20CON, 18PD/ED]
Mentalists
Gadgeteers/Sorcerers (probably not good for beginners)

Note: stats shown above are from Rook's message dealing with what he's
seen in the BBB - I don't have a copy of the book with me my right so
they're all I have to go by, but they seem about right (although I'm
still in shock over the SPD of the Energy Projectors).

---------------------------------------------------------

The Plans

----------
Option Rat

Templates represent archtype minumums.

Plug-ins should only add to template.

Characteristic Based
[125 point template]
[75 point plug-ins]
Power Based
[100 point template]
[100 point plug-ins]

Spends 200 points, leaves 50 for customizing.

-----------
Option Rook

Template represents typical stats.

Plugins could + or - it from there.

All Characters
[150 point template]
[25 point archetype specific plug-ins]
[25 point background plug-ins]
[25 point "other" plug-in] {I'm not really sure what this is}

Spends 225 points, leaves 25 for customizing.

-------------
Option John - My Compromise (grabbing what I like from the other two)

Templates represent archtype minumums.
(see plug-in for reason why).

Plug-ins should only add to template.
I tend to favor the idea that plug-ins should only add to the
template, not subtract, if only for simplifying matters as
much as possible for neophite players

All Characters
[150 point template]
[50 point archetype specific plug-ins]
[25 point background template] [optional]

Spends 200-225 points, leaves 25-50 for customizing.

------------
The "why's" of my suggested compromise.

While I can see Rat's (likely) reason for differentiating between
characteristic driven and power driven characters, I think, in the
longrun, standardization is a good thing.

I did a little playing around and found that I had difficulty
consistantly building archetype specific plug-ins for 25 points (see
Rook's suggestion). I think that 50 points will allow for more
versitility in creating the plug-ins.

I do, however, like the idea of background plug-ins, and 25 points seems
more than adequate for that.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: geoff@emerald.omg.org
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 14:54:59 -0500
From: Geoff Speare <geoff@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Sample template (very rough draft)
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X-UID: 80

>> It depends if you're talking about beginning players, or beginning
>> characters; we're definitely talking about the former, and we may or may
>> not be talking about the latter. Are we?
>>
> Beginning players I'd say.

It seems to me that a template for beginning players would do its job if a
player could take the template, spend all the extra points on
irrelevant/inefficient things, and still have a workable (though probably
low powered) character. If the template itself isn't a workable character,
then it's not really helping the beginner: they still have to learn the
system in order to complete the template.

Geoff Speare

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Templates - compiled ideas
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:56:12 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 79

>
> 250 Point Campaign
>
> Power levels per BBB recommendations.
>
> I would strongly recommend only using the core rules (the BBB) as most
> new players are probably going to have only that.
>
Agreed.


> Characteristic Based
> Bricks [50STR, 18DEX, 5SPD, 25CON]
> Martial Aritists [20STR, 25DEX, 6.5SPD, 18CON, 15PD/ED]
> Speedsters
Speedster may have been in Champs III, I'll have to look. If
not it's going to be a hard one. Most of the published ones differ in
power level a lot. Coming up with a 250 one will likely restart the
speedster trick's flame-thread.

>
> Power Based
> Energy Projectors [10STR, 20DEX, 6SPD, 20CON, 18PD/ED]
> Mentalists
> Gadgeteers/Sorcerers (probably not good for beginners)
>
Well, Gadgeteer as in Power Armor guy is good for begineers, but
the VPP style Inspector Gadget/Dr. Strange should be left out
all together, with a note in the final version saying why.


> Note: stats shown above are from Rook's message dealing with what he's
> seen in the BBB - I don't have a copy of the book with me my right so
> they're all I have to go by, but they seem about right (although I'm
> still in shock over the SPD of the Energy Projectors).
>
Actually, almost all BBB characters are speed 5 or 6. 5.5 is
the average. Perhaps the base for EB's could be 5, and about 50% of
plugins prop it up to 6. :)

> Option John - My Compromise (grabbing what I like from the other two)
>
> Templates represent archtype minumums.
> (see plug-in for reason why).
>
> Plug-ins should only add to template.
> I tend to favor the idea that plug-ins should only add to the
> template, not subtract, if only for simplifying matters as
> much as possible for neophite players
>
> All Characters
> [150 point template]
> [50 point archetype specific plug-ins]
> [25 point background template] [optional]
>
> Spends 200-225 points, leaves 25-50 for customizing.
>
This is closer to my more recent proposals. I too starting seeing
the 25 wouldn't work unless it had about half minuses, which is what I had
planned actually.

Currently I would propose:

130 base
40 point from base archetype plugin
40 point from elsewhere or 'other powers' plugin
20 point background plugin
20 freebies for customizing.

All base specific plugins would have an A, B, and C option.
The C option would go for 40 points, the B for 80 points.
The A option would be only for characters who's base matches
the plugin, but at 40 points. Allowing them to choose another
diferent 'A' option plugin.

I think the 130 base should shoot for the average of that
archetype's stats and most basic powers.

Any stat minuses that might not work with some bases should
then be kept to the 'A' or 'B' option.

In this way, only the 'C' option is truely usable across bases

This 'A','B','C' stuff might seem a bit too much, but it allows
for three versions of the same plugin designed for three situations
I can see:
1: The guy who only wants this plugin and no other powers
2: The guy who wants this plugin X1 to match his base X. and
then plans another plugin X2 from either the same base X, or
another base Y's plugin list.
3: The guy who wants this plugin Y1 which is not from his
base X.

Therefore, A plugin's would take the base up to a person who's
main focus is the A plugin, but has room for side stuff.
B plugins would build a character who's sole focus is that plugin and
it's matching base.
C plugins would be designed to allow a diferent character type to
dabble in that effect.

Let's look at the man of steel concept for this:

The purest takes a Brick base and body of X plugin B.
His entire powers are based on being able to turn his body into
steel. In addition he has a small background plugin and 20 points
left to use to decide if this is always on, red End or whatever
custom mods are desired.

Then their's Steel Bullet. He took a brick base with a body of X
plugin A. To cap it off he added in a energy projector plugin type
C that let him shoot wads ot steel at people.

And finally the Steel Ninja. He took an MA base with a type A ninja
plugin. To add spice he took a type C body of X plugin from the
brick base so he could turn his body into steel.

Now, given that type C's are minor here, should they be less than 50pts?

which would mean we'd need a type D for the 50 pointer.
Which I think begins to get to the point where we start asking just what it
is we're doing.

Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 21:21:26
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:09:57 -0800 (PST), Anthony Jackson wrote:

>qts writes:
>
>> Why can't I just apply the AOE advantage to Missile Deflection? It is a
>> Power, not a Skill.
>
>Because the AOE advantage on missile deflection means you can deflect missiles
>in an area, not that you can deflect area effects.

So Link it to an appropriate Area Effect eg Force Wall.

>> After all, someone like Reflec might have Missile Deflection, Damage
>> Shield, Only vs Light attacks
>
>Damage shield cannot be applied to missile deflection, as (a) it isn't an
>attack power, and (b) damage shield only takes effect when you are hit in HTH
>combat, and missile deflection only applies to ranged combat, and (c) a damage
>shield has no OCV, and therefore cannot make block rolls in any case.

So how else would you model Reflec? All rules are subject to the GM's
discretion.


qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 13:22:56 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: The "Radiation Accident"
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

At 11:26 PM 2/4/98 EST, Leah L Watts wrote:

>
>What happens if I get a gadget hound in the JI section of the game?
It's
>a little difficult to explain how any sort of "radiation accident"
would
>give someone a gadget pool or powered armor. Also, one player I've
>discussed this game with is interested in going through the RA and
having
>me surprise him with his new powers -- suggestions on how to run
this?
>
The radiation temporarily stimulates his creative powers. He has a
sudden burst of insane inspiration, and manages to build a super
suit/gun/vehicle/whatever that is centuries ahead of its time. :)
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:28:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]]
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

Filksinger writes:
> Save that it already exists in Missile Deflection. (Whether or not it
> should is a different matter.)
No, actually, it doesn't -- or if it does, 'DCV' is also an absolute defense
(if you don't get hit, you don't take any damage). Any attack you can missile
deflect, you can dodge (and the 'difficulty' is the same -- i.e. based on the
OCV of your opponent). If you make missile deflection work vs area effects,
this makes missile deflection effective against attacks you _cannot_ dodge, and
for which OCV is not terribly meaningful.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 98 21:49:45
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On Thu, 05 Feb 1998 18:28:41 -0800, Jim Dickinson wrote:

>At 07:41 AM 2/4/98 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>> See, here we go again. Even a subject on how to make Hero
>>more understandable has degraded into math and/or mechanics debates. In this
>>case, math.
>>
>> Maybe we should put forth a proposal that all messages to the list
>>have one of [genre],[rules],[math],[uselessjunk],[characters], or
>>whatever in the subject line so I can simply thread some of this junk into
>>my trash folder and get on to reading the parts I enjoy.
>>
>>
>
>And here I am the one who started the thread...wondering what the hell
>happened to it? Now it is off in three directions:
>
> 1) Discussing Hero's "Super Hero genre centricity".
> 2) Debating how (un)important calculators are to character creation.
> 3) complaining about the content of the list.

You forgot one. The template discussion, which is going along quite swimmingly - lots
of input, no insults - it's the type of stuff I read this list for.


>ugh...
>
>If you don't want to relate your posts to the thread, feel free to change
>the subject line... ;-)
>
>Thanks!
>Jim
>
>


Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Authentication-Warning: xanadu.io.com: traveler owned process doing -bs
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:53:15 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Templates - compiled ideas
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On Thu, 5 Feb 1998, Brian Wong wrote:

> >
> > 250 Point Campaign
> >
> > Power levels per BBB recommendations.
> >
> > I would strongly recommend only using the core rules (the BBB) as most
> > new players are probably going to have only that.
> >
> Agreed.

Consider the idea of incorporating a fixed amount of Disads into every
Background Plug-in - not only do we need to determine how to break up the
250 total points amongst the various modules, but we also need to break up
the 150 points of Disadvantages. Granted, most of them will belong in the
Miscellaneous category; but I can see a fixed amount going into each
Background Plug-In, covering things like Watched or Distinctive
Features...

Also, aren't these really 100+150 point characters?

> > Characteristic Based
> > Bricks [50STR, 18DEX, 5SPD, 25CON]
> > Martial Aritists [20STR, 25DEX, 6.5SPD, 18CON, 15PD/ED]
> > Speedsters
> Speedster may have been in Champs III, I'll have to look. If
> not it's going to be a hard one. Most of the published ones differ in
> power level a lot. Coming up with a 250 one will likely restart the
> speedster trick's flame-thread.
>
> >
> > Power Based
> > Energy Projectors [10STR, 20DEX, 6SPD, 20CON, 18PD/ED]
> > Mentalists
> > Gadgeteers/Sorcerers (probably not good for beginners)

Also Sneaks (Darkness, Desolid, Images, Invisibility, Shapeshift,
Shrinking, etc.) and Adjusters (Aid, Drain, Dispel, and Suppress).

> Well, Gadgeteer as in Power Armor guy is good for begineers, but
> the VPP style Inspector Gadget/Dr. Strange should be left out
> all together, with a note in the final version saying why.

Definitely.

> > Note: stats shown above are from Rook's message dealing with what he's
> > seen in the BBB - I don't have a copy of the book with me my right so
> > they're all I have to go by, but they seem about right (although I'm
> > still in shock over the SPD of the Energy Projectors).
>
> Actually, almost all BBB characters are speed 5 or 6. 5.5 is
> the average. Perhaps the base for EB's could be 5, and about 50% of
> plugins prop it up to 6. :)

Sounds good to me...

> > Option John - My Compromise (grabbing what I like from the other two)
> >
> > Templates represent archtype minumums.
> > (see plug-in for reason why).
> >
> > Plug-ins should only add to template.
> > I tend to favor the idea that plug-ins should only add to the
> > template, not subtract, if only for simplifying matters as
> > much as possible for neophite players
> >
> > All Characters
> > [150 point template]
> > [50 point archetype specific plug-ins]
> > [25 point background template] [optional]
> >
> > Spends 200-225 points, leaves 25-50 for customizing.
> >
> This is closer to my more recent proposals. I too starting seeing
> the 25 wouldn't work unless it had about half minuses, which is what I had
> planned actually.
>
> Currently I would propose:
>
> 130 base
> 40 point from base archetype plugin
> 40 point from elsewhere or 'other powers' plugin
> 20 point background plugin
> 20 freebies for customizing.

...so it's absolutely impossible to build a character with less than 30
points of Disads? (And even then, you'd have to drop all plug-ins and
customizing...)

> All base specific plugins would have an A, B, and C option.
> The C option would go for 40 points, the B for 80 points.
> The A option would be only for characters who's base matches
> the plugin, but at 40 points. Allowing them to choose another
> diferent 'A' option plugin.

Find a more descriptive set of labels.

> I think the 130 base should shoot for the average of that
> archetype's stats and most basic powers.
>
> Any stat minuses that might not work with some bases should
> then be kept to the 'A' or 'B' option.
>
> In this way, only the 'C' option is truely usable across bases

So don't even have the 'C' option; if anything looks like it would qualify
as a 'C', turn it into a General plugin. Since you've only got two types
left, go with a 'standard' plugin and an 'aumented' plugin. All of the
bases would have both types of plugins, including the General
"pseudo-base"

> This 'A','B','C' stuff might seem a bit too much, but it allows
> for three versions of the same plugin designed for three situations
> I can see:
> 1: The guy who only wants this plugin and no other powers
> 2: The guy who wants this plugin X1 to match his base X. and
> then plans another plugin X2 from either the same base X, or
> another base Y's plugin list.
> 3: The guy who wants this plugin Y1 which is not from his
> base X.
>
> Therefore, A plugin's would take the base up to a person who's
> main focus is the A plugin, but has room for side stuff.
> B plugins would build a character who's sole focus is that plugin and
> it's matching base.
> C plugins would be designed to allow a diferent character type to
> dabble in that effect.

Consider removing the Augmented Plugin and allowing the designer to select
a given plugin twice.

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:10:31 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Templates - compiled ideas
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

---Dataweaver wrote:
>
> On Thu, 5 Feb 1998, Brian Wong wrote:
> > Currently I would propose:
> >
> > 130 base
> > 40 point from base archetype plugin
> > 40 point from elsewhere or 'other powers' plugin
> > 20 point background plugin
> > 20 freebies for customizing.
>
> ...so it's absolutely impossible to build a character with less than
30
> points of Disads? (And even then, you'd have to drop all plug-ins and
> customizing...)

Ignoring the idea of templates entirely, how would you build an
effecitive superhero with only 100 points?

-=>John Desmarais
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Templates - compiled ideas
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:00:51 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> > > 250 Point Campaign
> > > Power levels per BBB recommendations.
> > >
> > > I would strongly recommend only using the core rules (the BBB) as most
> > > new players are probably going to have only that.
> > >
Actually, I was thinking that the disads should be a seperate thing
using their own template structure. I have plans for that I will
send off tomight.
What it needs is a list of every disad people can think of and it's
point value. Sperated out by disad type, and then weather it's
heroic, villian, or neutral.

> Also, aren't these really 100+150 point characters?
>
yep.


> > > Characteristic Based
> > > Bricks [50STR, 18DEX, 5SPD, 25CON]
> > > Martial Aritists [20STR, 25DEX, 6.5SPD, 18CON, 15PD/ED]
> > > Speedsters
> > Speedster may have been in Champs III, I'll have to look. If
> > not it's going to be a hard one. Most of the published ones differ in
> > power level a lot. Coming up with a 250 one will likely restart the
> > speedster trick's flame-thread.
> >
> > >
> > > Power Based
> > > Energy Projectors [10STR, 20DEX, 6SPD, 20CON, 18PD/ED]
> > > Mentalists
> > > Gadgeteers/Sorcerers (probably not good for beginners)
>
> Also Sneaks (Darkness, Desolid, Images, Invisibility, Shapeshift,
> Shrinking, etc.) and Adjusters (Aid, Drain, Dispel, and Suppress).
>
Sneaks? never though of that. But it's a good point.

>
> >
> > Currently I would propose:
> >
> > 130 base
> > 40 point from base archetype plugin
> > 40 point from elsewhere or 'other powers' plugin
> > 20 point background plugin
> > 20 freebies for customizing.
>
> ...so it's absolutely impossible to build a character with less than 30
> points of Disads? (And even then, you'd have to drop all plug-ins and
> customizing...)
>
If you only had 30 points of disads total, that would hardly be a
standard character. :)

But I want to see the disads seperate from the templates, but
create a system for getting them quick too.

darnit, I have to run and will have to get the rest of this later
tonight. :)
>

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:07:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

qts writes:
> >Because the AOE advantage on missile deflection means you can deflect
> >missiles in an area, not that you can deflect area effects.
>
> So Link it to an appropriate Area Effect eg Force Wall.

Well, if you're willing to use a force wall, who needs missile deflection
anyway? The missile deflection won't add anything.
>
> So how else would you model Reflec? All rules are subject to the GM's
> discretion.

Well, if it was only deflecting attacks, I'd model it as +DCV or +defenses, vs
light-based attacks only. If it actually reflects attacks I probably wouldn't
allow it in the first place, but there's really no good way within the system
of doing this.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: traveler owned process doing -bs
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 17:16:53 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Templates - compiled ideas
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On Thu, 5 Feb 1998, Brian Wong wrote:

> > > > 250 Point Campaign
> > > > Power levels per BBB recommendations.
> > > >
> > > > I would strongly recommend only using the core rules (the BBB) as most
> > > > new players are probably going to have only that.
>
> Actually, I was thinking that the disads should be a seperate thing
> using their own template structure. I have plans for that I will
> send off tomight.
> What it needs is a list of every disad people can think of and it's
> point value. Sperated out by disad type, and then weather it's
> heroic, villian, or neutral.

...not to mention innate or social; Hunted/Watched, DNPC, Public Identity,
Reputation, Secret Identity, and possibly Distinctive Features fall into
the latter, while everything else falls into the former. I would
incorporate 20 points of social disadvantages and/or appropriate
Psychological Limitations into every Background Plug-In - usually a
Watched, Public Identity + 10-pt Psych Lim, or Secret ID + 5-pt Psych Lim.

> > > > Power Based
> > > > Energy Projectors [10STR, 20DEX, 6SPD, 20CON, 18PD/ED]
> > > > Mentalists
> > > > Gadgeteers/Sorcerers (probably not good for beginners)
> >
> > Also Sneaks (Darkness, Desolid, Images, Invisibility, Shapeshift,
> > Shrinking, etc.) and Adjusters (Aid, Drain, Dispel, and Suppress).
> >
> Sneaks? never though of that. But it's a good point.

What would you call a character like DC Comic's Triad or Marvel's Madrox,
the Multiple Man?

> >
> > >
> > > Currently I would propose:
> > >
> > > 130 base
> > > 40 point from base archetype plugin
> > > 40 point from elsewhere or 'other powers' plugin
> > > 20 point background plugin
> > > 20 freebies for customizing.
> >
> > ...so it's absolutely impossible to build a character with less than 30
> > points of Disads? (And even then, you'd have to drop all plug-ins and
> > customizing...)
>
> If you only had 30 points of disads total, that would hardly be a
> standard character. :)
>
> But I want to see the disads seperate from the templates, but
> create a system for getting them quick too.

Sounds good; you could model them as (say) four 20-pointers with 20 points
linked to the Background plug-ins and 30 points for customization... ?

> darnit, I have to run and will have to get the rest of this later
> tonight. :)

I'll be waiting...

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:27:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Templates - compiled ideas
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

Dataweaver writes:
> What would you call a character like DC Comic's Triad or Marvel's Madrox,
> the Multiple Man?

Triad is a martial artist with a special shtick. Jamie Madrox I call
impractical on this version of Champions, as duplication costs are screwed up.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 19:05:02 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@mars.superlink.net>
Subject: My ideas, was Re: Templates
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mars.superlink.net id TAA15472
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

[Notes: All numbers in brackets are real point costs for the items the
are next to. They are for the benefit of the advanced player. The
discussion on the list indicated more high powered characters, but I
think this can work. These tables do not work with Normal Characteristic
Maxima.]

Step 1 Campaign limits
Find out the power level that the character should have. Your GM will tell
what level to use. This table indicates how many add-ins you are allowed
to use in your character. (See step 4 below.)

Champaign Character Point Limit 150 250 375
Add-ins with basic archetype 4 8 13
Add-ins with Super Archetype 2 6 11
Add-ins with Ultra Archetype N/A 3 8

Step 2 Choose an archetype.
There are three different archetypes for each named type (i.e. Brick,
SuperBrick, and UltraBrick). The Super and Ultra versions are designed
for characters who are more specialized in the archetype. If you are
looking to create a pure Brick, use the SuperBrick or UltraBrick archetype.
If you are thinking about a brick with martial arts, use the Brick
archetype and take some of the martial arts add ins. Note: Some archetypes
do not exist at the basic level; they require too many character points to
work at that level

Base Characteristics
S: 10, D: 10, C: 10, B: 10, I: 10, E: 10, P: 10, C: 10, PD/ED: 2/2, Spd:2,
Rec: 4, END: 20, STUN: 20, Running 6

Basic Archetypes
Brick -- S: 25, C: 15, B: 15, PD/ED: 5/5, Rec: 8, END: 30, STUN: 40 [41]
Speedster -- D: 15, C: 13, PD/ED: 3/3, Spd 4, Rec: 5, END: 30, STUN: 21,
Running 10" [43]
Mentalist -- E: 18, Mental Defense 10, 5D6 Telepathy or MC or MI [42]
Martial Artist -- S: 13, D: 14, C: 15, E: 11, PD/ED: 4/4, Spd: 3, Rec: 6,
END: 30, STUN: 30, Defense Maneuver [42]

Super Archetypes
Super Brick -- S: 50, D:14, C: 23, B: 20, PD/ED: 15/15, Spd: 3, Rec: 10,
END: 50, STUN: 60, rPD/rED: 10/10 (Damage Resistance), KB Resistance 5,
2 Combat Skill Levels (tight: Strike, Move Through, Grab) [140]
Super Speedster -- D: 26, C: 20, B: 12, PD/ED: 5/5, Spd: 5, Rec: 15,
END: 50, STUN: 35, Running 10 x8 NCM [138]
Super Mentalist -- D: 14, Ego: 23, Spd: 3, Rec: 10, END 35, Mental Defense
20, EC (20) a) 8D6 Telepathy b) 8D6 Mind Control or Mental Illusions
c) 4D6 EGO Attack [144]

Step 3 Add in additional powers.
There many things that you can add to a basic character. [Each add in
should add up to 25 real points]

Strength Boost: +25 Strength, +5 PD, +5 ED, +4 Rec, +10 END, +10 STUN
Endurance Boost: +10 Constitution, +2 PD, +2 ED, +5 Rec, +25 END, +5 STUN
Speed Boost: +5 Dexterity, +1 Speed, +10 END
Armor Boost: Armor 8 rPD, 8 rED
Ranged Attack: 1 1/2D6 KA
Mental Power: +5D6 Telepathy or Mental Illusions or Mind Control, etc
Martial Art: Martial Strike, Defensive Strike, Martial Throw, Martial Dodge,
Flight: 10, x4 NCM
Don't Touch Me: 1d6 RKA, Damage Shield.
Don't Make Me Angry: 4D6 Aid STR, Trigger (when STUN is reduced to half
its normal total)
Scientist: PS: Scientist, Inventor, Mechanics, KS: Chemistry, etc.
Ego Attack: 2 1/2D6 Ego Attack
Entangle: 2D6 Entangle

Step 3a Optional Add ins
Some add ins are full power compliments, they use up two or three of your
add ins each.

Ghost Powers (2 add-ins): <STOP> Desolidification. STR affects physical
world (Use an additional add-in for each 10 points of Strength over 10,
round up.)
Mentalist EC (3 add-ins): EC (20) a) 8D6 Telepathy b) 8D6 Mind Control or
Mental Illusions c) 4D6 EGO Attack

Step 3b Special Effect
Before you finish choosing all of your add-ins, you should link them
together into one special effect. Does your energy manipulator spit fire?
Is your Brick normal looking, or does his skin pulse with energy? etc.

Step 4 Character Background
This step allows you to pick skills and talents that you think will
differentiate your character. You should take a Professional Skill
if you character has a job. You have 30 character points to work with
here. Dont forget Comeliness.

Step 5 Disadvantages
Choose one disadvantage package for each add ins. Add one disadvantage
if you chose a SuperArchetype; add two disadvantages if you chose an
UltraArchetype. Disadvantages listed with an asterick count as two
disadvantages.

Super Patriot *
Vulnerability x1 1/2 STUN (choose one: cold, fire, electricity, etc.)
Vulnerability * x2 STUN, x1 1/2 BODY (choose one: cold, fire,
electricity, etc.)
Secret ID
Public ID

Step 6 Clean up
Calculate OCV for each attack power, Normal DCV (and DCV for each martial
art maneuver), ECV, and skill levels for skills based on characteristics.
Write all of your accumulated characteristics, powers, and disadvantages
on a character sheet.

Step 7 On your own
Characters created with this method are limited in their choice of powers
and disadvantages. The powers listed above are not the only powers
available to characters. Stop sign powers are not included in the above
list because they require more thought than just putting them in column A
or column B.

[Future work:
1) I think Im going to up the basic point levels to 60, could use some
low level suggestions there.
2) The add-ins should be broken out into categories: Attack powers, Defense
powers, Mentalist powers, etc.
3) Obviously the number of add-ins and disadvantages has to go up. I will
not include disadvantages in the the archetypes because there are no
stereotypical disadvantages. Those kinds of stereotypes go with
personalities and any personality can work with any character archetype.
4) "Don't Touch Me" and "Don't Make Me Angry" are supposed to give "flavor"
to the add-ins. Does it work? or Is it trying to hard?
]

[Note: This "article" is incomplete. I'm going off to watch Babylon 5
and rest my monitor-weary eyeballs.]


Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 18:48:50 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Another place for templates?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

I had planned to stay entirely out of the template discussion, but I guess
I'll settle for "mostly out". I like the notion of templates. I think
they should be as simple and ready-to-use as possible, given that they're
for beginning players. If the characters aren't perfect, so what? Any
players who decide to stick with the game can modify or redesign the
character later on.

There may be a second use for such things, though, where a bit more
complexity needn't be a problem. The impending release of The Ultimate
Super Vehicle naturally makes one think of The Ultimate Super Base. Rather
than release such a book on its own, though, I'd favor incorporating into
The Utlimate Super Team, on the theory that a team is more likely than a
single hero to have much of a base; and that those single heroes who have
bases will likely have a sidekick, or support staff, or followers of some
type. You could argue that's just another sort of team.

Anyway, comic-book super teams usually have a half dozen or more members
that can be pigeonholed into one of 12 or 15 broad categories. Perhaps a
form of template, or archetype, could be included in such a Team book, with
strategy and tactic suggestions for different sorts of teams based on their
composition.

The book would also have to cover things like Perks than might be available
to team members that the individual heroes couldn't get on their own, like
access to the company QuinJet, which the lone hero couldn't afford to
build. But I digress. The point is, for those of you who really want to
complexify the template idea, perhaps pushing it to the point where a brand
new player wouldn't want to deal with it, but a more experienced player
would love it, consider very simple writeups (templates) for possible
inclusion in BBB5, and perhaps more involved/detailed/flexible writeups
(archetypes?) for an Ultimate Team book.

Damon


---------------------
Every act of creation is first of all an act of destruction.
-- Pablo Picasso

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 17:33:45 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Re: Templates - compiled ideas
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

> > All base specific plugins would have an A, B, and C option.
> > The C option would go for 40 points, the B for 80 points.
> > The A option would be only for characters who's base matches
> > the plugin, but at 40 points. Allowing them to choose another
> > diferent 'A' option plugin.
>
> Find a more descriptive set of labels.
>

yeah. I'm just using those terms for now until what gets used is ironed out.

A = base specific sub archetype
B = Base specific explored sub archetype
C = base generic sub archetype
D = base generic explored sub archetype

(D is added in this message. think B only generic to any base)

That's what they more or less are, but you'd have to think like I do to
understand that from just the
names. :) So yes, better names needed.


> > I think the 130 base should shoot for the average of that
> > archetype's stats and most basic powers.
> >
> > Any stat minuses that might not work with some bases should
> > then be kept to the 'A' or 'B' option.
> >
> > In this way, only the 'C' option is truely usable across bases
>
> So don't even have the 'C' option; if anything looks like it would qualify
> as a 'C', turn it into a General plugin. Since you've only got two types
> left, go with a 'standard' plugin and an 'aumented' plugin. All of the
> bases would have both types of plugins, including the General
> "pseudo-base"

That may be a good point. Basically I saw A,B,and C as all being three
versions of the same theme.

A is a version disigned to fit a base and allow a viable PC who has spread
across another platform as well (taken a C from elsewhere, or a second A from this
base)
A makes a viable character if used with it's base, but if used with another base
may cause trouble,
this is because A will take advantage of specific themes found in it's base.

B is an extension of A. It is A explored into a full character who'se only theme is
that
effect.

C is like A only unlike A it cannot make assumptions about what is in the base. It
has to
be designed to make a buildable character with any base.

The generic plugins would contain typer C and D (being like B, only built to work
with any base).

The background plugins would be 20 pointers designed to give a few skills and make
the assumption
that you only take one of them once.


> > This 'A','B','C' stuff might seem a bit too much, but it allows
> > for three versions of the same plugin designed for three situations
> > I can see:
> > 1: The guy who only wants this plugin and no other powers
> > 2: The guy who wants this plugin X1 to match his base X. and
> > then plans another plugin X2 from either the same base X, or
> > another base Y's plugin list.
> > 3: The guy who wants this plugin Y1 which is not from his
> > base X.
> >
> > Therefore, A plugin's would take the base up to a person who's
> > main focus is the A plugin, but has room for side stuff.
> > B plugins would build a character who's sole focus is that plugin and
> > it's matching base.
> > C plugins would be designed to allow a diferent character type to
> > dabble in that effect.
>
> Consider removing the Augmented Plugin and allowing the designer to select
> a given plugin twice.

Ah, you could take a C twice. B would differ from this in that it is a full
exploration of a
theme using all points available. Not just a double power of the A or B. A might
not work
twice as some of the assumptions it can be allowed to make about the base might
cause
trouble if applied twice (such as an A that had a large minus to a stat found in
the base).

I think having A, B, C and D is a good compromise between those who want
plugins that
only add (C and D types), and those that can add and subtract based on knowing what
a base contains
(A and B).

Done right it can avoid complexity.

One key thing is to make sure all bases and plugin's contain simple power
constructs that are easy
for the novice hero player to read and understand.

After getting this far I realized that if we add a template system for making
disads, we could add
random tables to this thing, and have a random NPC maker that works and has play
balance.
Would make a neat Java program too. :)


For disads we need to get a list of all disads we can think of and their values
in points, then start
seperating them into catagories. Then maybe list them in two ways.
method 1: just list them in an index.

method 2: group them in set of X that fit together. My thinking is X would be 3
disads, but this idea is
new to me and not yet well thought out.


I know there is a list of Hero disads on the web, minus point values. One tough
issue here would
be agreeing on the point value for a disad, assuming a "standard" campaign world
(whatever that is).


--
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/


Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 17:51:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Templates - compiled ideas
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

Hm...I was thinking more about templates, and came to a realization: coming up
with a 'brick template' isn't all that useful, because the newbie player
doesn't know he wants to be a 'brick'. He knows 'I want to turn into living
steel' or some such thing -- its the person who already knows the conventions
who says 'oh, that's a brick'. As such, I think we're looking at templates in
the wrong way -- templates should be classified by special effect. I.e. don't
come up with a 'brick template' -- come up with a 'body of X' template. Sure,
its less flexible -- but it might well get the point across faster than a
'brick template' would.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 12:55:59 +1100
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 10:05 PM 2/3/98, John Desmarais wrote:
>On Tue, 3 Feb 1998 07:02:52 -0800, Tanja Nasset wrote:
>
>>If you don't use them, expect math errors in characters. Unless, of
>>course, you are extra careful _and_ you do all the characters
>>yourself.
>
>Why should I expect math errors? It's all extremely simple math - stuff
people should
>have learned in elementary school.
>
As a maths (and computer) major I'd just like to point out that
mathematics _lecturers_ sometimes make mistakes adding numbers, never mind
anyone else. Apart from everything else it's _very_ easy to transpose a
couple of digits and write 12 instead of 21 or the other way around.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 05 Feb 1998 21:04:03 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "SM" == Stephen McGinness <smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk> writes:

SM> Well, I think there is a case here for GM discretion. The teleport
SM> power does allow for the creation of a gate that stays open (i'm sure
SM> it does, though I don't have it in front of me!!)

That is an optional effect that originally appeared in "Mystic Masters",
IMO a much better attempt at a "supermage" campaign than The Ultimate
Supermage. What kept it in balance is that the "portal" is literally a
two-way street, and the creator has no control over what passes through nor
the direction.

Yes, it *could* be used as a defense... and something *WILL* come through
from the other side to wreak havoc, GM's discretion based on how frequently
the portal is abused.

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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

TRG> Sure it is. Try 100% damage reduction, UBO.

The only way I can see 100% Reduction is to see Reduction changed from
PD/ED/MD to special effects -- to wit, instead of buying limited PD and ED
reduction to protect against "fire attacks", buy "Fire Reduction". And I
would not allow more than one special effect per character to start, much
like the restriction on NND attacks.

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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Template Power level (Re: Sample template (very rough draft))
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 05 Feb 1998 21:14:02 -0500
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>>>>> "BW" == Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes:

BW> This locks things in a bit too much. It means you have to guess the
BW> minimum ever possible.

Any halfways competant GM or player knows what they are. Given a 12DC
damage cap with commessurate defenses, 8DC is about as small an attack as
anyone would want to have. 40 Strength. Easy.

Given an average Speed of 4-5, you probably do not want to be below a Speed
3. Easy.

All the other characteristics are likewise easy to determine absolute
minimum viable levels.

BW> It's better to shoot for averages; as these are much easier to pin
BW> down and stick to.

And more work for the beginning player, the player that does not really
"get it". And with 200 points allocated to template and plug you do not
have to worry about something being too low, if the plugs are designed
right.

Anyone that wants something more flexible can build his character from
scratch.

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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Template Power level (Re: Sample template)
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>>>>> "BW" == Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes:

BW> Oh yes, the gadgeteer/power armor types.

Which are really either bricks or energy projectors with different special
effects (Foci).

And remember that Foci can be taken away. A "power armor brick" that does
not have Focus on his Strength will rarely, if ever, be without his
strength (secret identity notwithstanding).

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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: champion@mailhost.cyberhighway.net
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 18:28:41 -0800
From: Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 07:41 AM 2/4/98 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
> See, here we go again. Even a subject on how to make Hero
>more understandable has degraded into math and/or mechanics debates. In this
>case, math.
>
> Maybe we should put forth a proposal that all messages to the list
>have one of [genre],[rules],[math],[uselessjunk],[characters], or
>whatever in the subject line so I can simply thread some of this junk into
>my trash folder and get on to reading the parts I enjoy.
>
>

And here I am the one who started the thread...wondering what the hell
happened to it? Now it is off in three directions:

1) Discussing Hero's "Super Hero genre centricity".
2) Debating how (un)important calculators are to character creation.
3) complaining about the content of the list.

ugh...

If you don't want to relate your posts to the thread, feel free to change
the subject line... ;-)

Thanks!
Jim

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 21:50:35 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@mars.superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Templates - compiled ideas
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 05:51 PM 2/5/98 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Hm...I was thinking more about templates, and came to a realization:
coming up
>with a 'brick template' isn't all that useful, because the newbie player
>doesn't know he wants to be a 'brick'. He knows 'I want to turn into living
>steel' or some such thing -- its the person who already knows the conventions
>who says 'oh, that's a brick'. As such, I think we're looking at
templates in
>the wrong way -- templates should be classified by special effect. I.e.
don't
>come up with a 'brick template' -- come up with a 'body of X' template.
Sure,
>its less flexible -- but it might well get the point across faster than a
>'brick template' would.

I was planning to include a description of the what the archetypes mean in
my post, but I did not have the time to write them up. Brick is easy to
describe. "Brick - This is the big guy on the team. Very strong, hard to
knock down, he is the guy who punches through the wall of the villain's
stronghold. Bricks can usually take as much damage as they can dish out.
Bricks tend to have names like Bulk, Big Guy, Crusher, etc."

Similar descriptions can easily be written for the other types.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 21:03:24 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Templates - compiled ideas
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org


> > What would you call a character like DC Comic's Triad or Marvel's Madrox,
> > the Multiple Man?
>
> Triad is a martial artist with a special shtick. Jamie Madrox I call
> impractical on this version of Champions, as duplication costs are screwed up.


I don't know the character, but taking away Jackson's biased
commentary says that Duplication is the way to go.


-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Templates - compiled ideas
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Date: 05 Feb 1998 22:04:39 -0500
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>>>>> "AJ" == Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> writes:

AJ> Hm...I was thinking more about templates, and came to a realization:
AJ> coming up with a 'brick template' isn't all that useful, because the
AJ> newbie player doesn't know he wants to be a 'brick'. He knows 'I want
AJ> to turn into living steel' or some such thing

That just means you have to word things properly. For instance:

Brick Template: You are strong and tough. You can throw cars
around, and bend girders with your hands. You shrug off attacks
that would pulverize a normal person.

Short, sweet, to the point. Now, a sketchy description of a brickish
"plug":

Body of X: Your body is composed of some material much harder and
heavier than flesh and bone: rock, steel, whatever.

And another:

Suit of Armor: Your strength is the suit of armor you wear, be it a
construct of magic or technology or anything else.

And yet another:

Herculean: You are a prince among your people, or a demigod to
another.

Okay, the last is a bit cheezy, but I think you get the idea.

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Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 22:01:15 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Templates - compiled ideas
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On Thu, 5 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

>
> > > What would you call a character like DC Comic's Triad or Marvel's Madrox,
> > > the Multiple Man?
> >
> > Triad is a martial artist with a special shtick. Jamie Madrox I call
> > impractical on this version of Champions, as duplication costs are screwed up.
>
>
> I don't know the character, but taking away Jackson's biased
> commentary says that Duplication is the way to go.

Nothing biased about it; Triad can split herself into three Duplicates,
and Madrox can split himself into more than twenty Duplicates. That many
Duplicates is prohibitively expensive in comparison to buying, say, more
than twenty Followers...

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]]
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 20:45:06 -0800
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On Thursday, February 05, 1998 12:29 PM, Anthony Jackson wrote:


>Filksinger writes:
>> Save that it already exists in Missile Deflection. (Whether or not
it
>> should is a different matter.)

>No, actually, it doesn't -- or if it does, 'DCV' is also an absolute
defense
>(if you don't get hit, you don't take any damage). Any attack you
can missile
>deflect, you can dodge (and the 'difficulty' is the same -- i.e.
based on the
>OCV of your opponent). If you make missile deflection work vs area
effects,
>this makes missile deflection effective against attacks you _cannot_
dodge, and
>for which OCV is not terribly meaningful.


But which you can avoid via a Dive for Cover. Thus, it is, in fact, no
different than if you had the ability Teleportation, UAO, AE, and used
this mass teleportation for Dive for Cover, thus making _everyone_
Dive for Cover.

Except, of course, that you couldn't save buildings, and everyone
would have moved.

Filksinger

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Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 22:46:01 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
Reply-To: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Templates - compiled ideas
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On Thu, 5 Feb 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote:

> At 05:51 PM 2/5/98 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> >Hm...I was thinking more about templates, and came to a realization:
> >coming up with a 'brick template' isn't all that useful, because the
> >newbie player doesn't know he wants to be a 'brick'. He knows 'I want
> >to turn into living steel' or some such thing -- its the person who
> >already knows the conventions who says 'oh, that's a brick'. As such,
> >I think we're looking at templates in the wrong way -- templates should
> >be classified by special effect. I.e. don't come up with a 'brick
> >template' -- come up with a 'body of X' template. Sure, its less
> >flexible -- but it might well get the point across faster than a
> >'brick template' would.

I beg to differ; it could quite easily end up being _more_ flexible than a
'brick template' would.

> I was planning to include a description of the what the archetypes mean in
> my post, but I did not have the time to write them up. Brick is easy to
> describe. "Brick - This is the big guy on the team. Very strong, hard to
> knock down, he is the guy who punches through the wall of the villain's
> stronghold. Bricks can usually take as much damage as they can dish out.
> Bricks tend to have names like Bulk, Big Guy, Crusher, etc."
>
> Similar descriptions can easily be written for the other types.
>

Try this idea: use the template approach that you described in your last
post - but leave out Step 2, and use more Add-ins. I believe that this is
along the lines of what Anthony was suggesting... (?)

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"


Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 21:46:03 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Re: Templates - compiled ideas
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> Hm...I was thinking more about templates, and came to a realization: coming up
> with a 'brick template' isn't all that useful, because the newbie player
> doesn't know he wants to be a 'brick'. He knows 'I want to turn into living
> steel' or some such thing -- its the person who already knows the conventions
> who says 'oh, that's a brick'. As such, I think we're looking at templates in
> the wrong way -- templates should be classified by special effect. I.e. don't
> come up with a 'brick template' -- come up with a 'body of X' template. Sure,
> its less flexible -- but it might well get the point across faster than a
> 'brick template' would.

A good point, but a 'body of X' template would result in 100's of bases.

So while we don't need to call it a 'brick' template, we can make the same thing,
and call it
a 'super strong' template.

--
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
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From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: Templates
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 01:23:20 -0500
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On February 5, 1998, Richard G. Schwerdtfeger wrote:

> Why doesn't someone check Champions III (IIRC)? Isn't that the one
> with the Champions random character generation tables?
>
> It had base stats for bricks, martial artists, energy projectors
> and mentallists, and then you rolled on the charts to add extra
> powers (like extra STR or invisibility or a flash attack, etc.)
>
> Possibly those base stats could be made into templates.
>
> Richard


For those who don't own Champions III, these are the Characteristics for the
four character types--bricks, martial artists, egoists, and energy projectors
and others--used in the random character generator system.


Bricks Martial Egoists Energy Projectors
Artists and Others
CHAR
STR 30 20 15 15
DEX 18 23 18 20
CON 28 18 23 23
BODY 10 10 10 10
INT 10 10 15 10
EGO 10 11 17 10
PRE 15 10 10 10
COM 10 12 10 10
PD 15 10 10 10
ED 15 10 10 10
SPD 4 5 5 5
REC 12 8 8 8
END 60 40 50 60
STUN 39 30 30 30

Cost = 120 120 110 100



There's much that can be criticized in using these figures as the character
templates. Following in the footsteps of Desmarais, Jackson, Rat, and
others, I would change them to something like the following.


Bricks Martial Egoists Energy Projectors
Artists and Others
CHAR
STR 40 15 10 10
DEX 14 23 18 18
CON 23 18 23 23
BODY 15 12 10 10
INT 10 10 13 10
EGO 10 11 18 10
PRE 20 15 10 10
COM 10 10 10 10
PD 20 10 8 8
ED 15 10 8 8
SPD 3 5 4 4
REC 13 7 7 7
END 56 36 46 46
STUN 47 29 27 27

Cost = 116 101 90 71

These are quite basic building blocks, with the expectation that two or more
stats will be bought up by every character. As they stand now, they're
adequate for beginning heroes with little combat experience and who are
lacking in intensive training, hence the relatively low DEX and SPD figures.
Think early X-Men, when Professor X had just recently gathered them.

A speedster can be built as a martial artist, or possibly as an "other."
Mages can be built as egoists or energy projectors. Gadgeteers and armored
heroes sans their armor can be built as energy projectors, with a possible
reduction in CON for such heroes. Armored heroes whose armor gives them
brick-like proportions can be built as bricks, provided the newbie has
grasped the idea of reducing the costs of Characteristics through a
Disadvantage.


Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com

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Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 00:44:07 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Templates - compiled ideas
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> > I don't know the character, but taking away Jackson's biased
> > commentary says that Duplication is the way to go.
>
> Nothing biased about it; Triad can split herself into three Duplicates,
> and Madrox can split himself into more than twenty Duplicates. That many
> Duplicates is prohibitively expensive in comparison to buying, say, more
> than twenty Followers...


And rightfully so. Duplication is expensive for more reason than
just utility. It also tends to allow a player to completely monopolize a
game. When you move, say, 20 times to the rest of the group's one,
everyone else is going to get pretty bored. I'd probably not play in such
a game.

An option is to make them summoned creatures or followers. The
latter seems good if you don't mind the GM controlling the duplicates
instead of you.



-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 00:50:35 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]
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> TRG> Sure it is. Try 100% damage reduction, UBO.
>
> The only way I can see 100% Reduction is to see Reduction changed from
> PD/ED/MD to special effects -- to wit, instead of buying limited PD and ED
> reduction to protect against "fire attacks", buy "Fire Reduction". And I
> would not allow more than one special effect per character to start, much
> like the restriction on NND attacks.
k

I do like your 100% SFX reduction. Heck, I like the idea of SFX
reduction to go along with the rest. (Send it to Steve Long, it's a
wonderful concept.) The nice thing is that is stops any type of damage of
a SFX. It can simulate a lot of nice effects.


However, regular reduction should be expanded to the 100% level.
Put a huge Stop Sign on it, but put it in the book. It's not that bad,
really. The high cost makes it prohibitive. 120 point to be totally
impervious to physical attacks.


For the AE deflect thing, just buy this UBO, AE. Or, more
appropriately, as the character is controlling it, UAO, AE.



-Tim Gilberg

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 01:06:03 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Templates
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> These are quite basic building blocks, with the expectation that two or more
> stats will be bought up by every character. As they stand now, they're
> adequate for beginning heroes with little combat experience and who are
> lacking in intensive training, hence the relatively low DEX and SPD figures.
> Think early X-Men, when Professor X had just recently gathered them.


I think this assumption is part of the problem. We keep chanting
our mantra of "beginning-level characters," and "like the comic book
characters in their beginnings".

The problem is, a newby brought in by love of the comics won't see
it this way. They'll see the system as being unable to do a proper
Batman, Wolverine, Cable, or Spiderman. If we just talk about recommended
level, they'll be quite right.

I think we should rethink the "default" level for characters.



-Tim Gilberg

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From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com>
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 02:12:33 -0500
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On February 02, 1998, Erol K. Bayburt wrote:

(material snipped)

> Something that contributes to both these problems is the
coarse-grained nature
> of the system. It's full of "breakpoints" which add complexity to
the system
> and which make it hard to properly depict non-superheroic
characters. I
> myself would not try to use HERO for non-superheroes were it not
for the
> "percent Hero" rules I came up with to eliminate the breakpoints
with skill,
> characteristic, and attack rolls. (To toot my own horn, Vox has
webbed them
> for me on his site: http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html Or I
could post
> them here if people want to see them.)

(material snipped)

> Erol K. Bayburt
> Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow

I checked out the above website to examine Erol's "percent Hero"
rules. There's much to recommend in them for their power to
eliminate a good deal of the minimaxing of Hero characteristics. A
22 INT becomes actually better than an 18 INT, and a 23 for DEX or
EGO no longer proves a holy number to be revered for its mystical
efficiency. They also smooth out the awkward probability skips and
jumps as stats grow higher.

The rules do call for a notable revision of the game, though, so I
doubt that any such percentile system will ever see more than
sporadic adoption by GMs. Still, kudos to Erol for developing and to
Vox for webbing them.


Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 23:40:52 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Templates
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> > It had base stats for bricks, martial artists, energy projectors
> > and mentallists, and then you rolled on the charts to add extra
> > powers (like extra STR or invisibility or a flash attack, etc.)
> >
> > Possibly those base stats could be made into templates.
> For those who don't own Champions III, these are the Characteristics for the
> four character types--bricks, martial artists, egoists, and energy projectors
> and others--used in the random character generator system.
>
> Bricks Martial Egoists Energy Projectors
> Artists and Others
> CHAR
> STR 30 20 15 15
> DEX 18 23 18 20
> CON 28 18 23 23
> BODY 10 10 10 10
> INT 10 10 15 10
> EGO 10 11 17 10
> PRE 15 10 10 10
> COM 10 12 10 10
> PD 15 10 10 10
> ED 15 10 10 10
> SPD 4 5 5 5
> REC 12 8 8 8
> END 60 40 50 60
> STUN 39 30 30 30
>
> Cost = 120 120 110 100
>
> There's much that can be criticized in using these figures as the character
> templates. Following in the footsteps of Desmarais, Jackson, Rat, and
> others, I would change them to something like the following.
>
> Bricks Martial Egoists Energy Projectors
> Artists and Others
> CHAR
> SPD 3 5 4 4
>

I haven't checked the other stats yet, but these are too low.
This template thing needs to be based on the standard power levels,
not our own personal uses.
The BBB gives the following:

Brick: 4.67
Martial Artist: 6.25
Energy Projector: 5.125
Egoist: 5 (only one of these in there though, so hard to judge)

This is based on pages C1 to C11 except for mechanon.
The Asenos where not used as they are new to 4th edition and
conflict with the power levels of the others in a visibly obvious way.
The Champions are also new to 4th, dropping them gives:

Brick: 4.67
Martial Artist: 6.33
Energy Projector: 5.167
Egoist: 5 (only one present, Mindlock)

I classsed Seeker as a Martial
Obsidian, Defender as Bricks
Quantum as Energy Projector

Jaguar is closest to Brick, with his high Str and HA
Solitaire could be Egoist or Energy Projector. I used Energy Projector

If we made Jaguar a MA, it would do this:

MA: 6.0

Brick: 4.60

If we made Solitaire an Egoist we get:

Egoist: 5.0 (based off of only 2 examples)

Energy Projector: 5.142

Adding in the Asesinos gives:

Brick: 4.55 with Ocelote, 4.375 without Ocelote

Martial A: 5.857 with Ocelote, 5.833 without Ocelote

Energy Projector: 5.0

Egoist: 5.0


> These are quite basic building blocks, with the expectation that two or more
> stats will be bought up by every character. As they stand now, they're
> adequate for beginning heroes with little combat experience and who are
> lacking in intensive training, hence the relatively low DEX and SPD figures.
> Think early X-Men, when Professor X had just recently gathered them.
>
> A speedster can be built as a martial artist, or possibly as an "other."
> Mages can be built as egoists or energy projectors. Gadgeteers and armored
> heroes sans their armor can be built as energy projectors, with a possible
> reduction in CON for such heroes. Armored heroes whose armor gives them
> brick-like proportions can be built as bricks, provided the newbie has
> grasped the idea of reducing the costs of Characteristics through a
> Disadvantage.



--
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/


Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 08:19:02 +0000
From: Stephen McGinness <smcginn@csm.ex.ac.uk>
Organization: Camborne School of Mines
Subject: Re: Templates
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Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> The problem is, a newby brought in by love of the comics won't see
> it this way. They'll see the system as being unable to do a proper
> Batman, Wolverine, Cable, or Spiderman. If we just talk about recommended
> level, they'll be quite right.

This is a good point though one I do not agree
with! :-)

Most of the newbies will have some RPG experience
and most of those will be used to the AD&D
"fields_of_death_that_are_known_as_the_first_level"
syndrome, whereby your character is _not_ going to
be Conan or Gandalph straight away. If you have a
Batman or Wolverine write up form Deejay's page or
somewhere to let them see the points used to build
it and show that it _is_ possible with experience,
or in a higher level campaign that you will run
when they _know_ the system then it will not be
such a turn off.

> I think we should rethink the "default" level for characters.

I'm still inclined to keep it simple, and if that
means lower power then I'm happy with that.

> -Tim Gilberg


Stephen

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From: Alurmic@aol.com
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 06:21:03 EST
Cc: Alurmic@aol.com
Subject: doc's d&d/v&v auction update #3
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The following are the rules of the auction on the listed items.
1. Buyer pays all shipping. After the auction closes out I will contact the
high bidder
and arrange for shipping as they wish.
2. In the event of tie bids the first bidder will be the high bidder for the
item.
3. Updates will be posted every couple of days. The high bidder will be listed
for
each item.
4. Bids will be taken till midnite on the 20th of february.
5. Any questions on any listed item contact me via email for details
6. All checks must clear before shipping, money orders ship next day.
thanks and good luck, here are the items
TSR
1992 TSR TRADING CARD SET- complete boxed set numbering 750 cards. box has
some wear on the outside. cards have only been out of the box once to verify
count. cards are art from forgotten realms, greyhawk, spelljammer, dragonlance
ravenloft and dark sun. much of the art was book and module covers.
HIGH BID- 4.00 BIDDER- aresana
X4 MASTER OF THE DESERT NOMADS- adventure for levels 6-9. part one of the
desert nomads set.very good condition, complete never used
HIGH BID- 4.00 BIDDER- llwatts
X5 TEMPLE OF DEATH- adventure for levels 6-10. part two of the desert nomads
set. very good condition, complete never used.
HIGH BID- 4.00 BIDDER- llwatts
I4 OASIS OF THE WHITE PLAIN- adventure for levels 6-8. second in the desert of
desolation set. excellant condition, complete never used.
HIGH BID- 3.00 BIDDER- llwatts
I5 LOST TOMB OF MARTEK- adventure for levels 7-9. third ands last in the
desert of desolation set. excellant condition, complete never used
HIGH BID- 4.00 BIDDER- flint
I11 NEEDLE- adventure for levels 8-10. excellant condition, complete never
used
HIGH BID- 4.00 BIDDER- flint
S3 EXPEDITION TO BARRIER PEAK- adventure for levels 8-12. fantasy characters
explore a crashed space ship. very good condition, complete used once.
HIGH BID- 4.00 BIDDER- flint
CM2 DEATH'S RIDE- adventuire for levels 15-20. excellant condition, complete
never used
HIGH BID- 3.00 BIDDER- flint
X1 ISLE OF DREAD- adventure for levels 3-7. very good condition, complete
never used
HIGH BID- 2.00 BIDDER- flint
SET OF THREE BASIC MODULES B2,B3,B4- adventures for levels 1-3. basic D&D
rules. all are complete, average very good condition
HIGH BID- 2.00 BIDDER- flint
C2 GHOST TOWN OF INVERNESS- adventure for levels 5-7. excellant condition,
complete never used.
HIGH BID- 3.00 BIDDER- flint
L1 SECERT OF BONE HILL- adventure for levels 2-4. very good condition,
complete never used.
HIGH BID- 2.00 BIDDER- flint



VILLAINS AND VIGILANTES
SET OF THREE V+V SUPPLEMENTS- three of the villian listings books:most wanted,
opponents unlimited, super crooks and criminals. all three are in overall good
condition with opponents the worst. some of the cardboard pieces have been cut
out. excellant listing of ideas for any supers game. most of the art by
patrick zircher before he began working for marvel comics
HIGH BID- 7.00 BIDDER- knitevert
FORCE ADVENTURE MODULE- excellant condition. adventure for heros against a
villan group. art by jeff dee
HIGH BID- 4.00 BIDDER- crazy
FROM THE DEEPS OF SPACE- excellant condition. adventure for 2-3 heros in apace
against alien races.
HIGH BID- 4.00 BIDDER- crazy
PRE-EMTIVE STRIKE- excellant condition. adventure for 3-4 heros to stop
nuclear war. art by sean knight. in the back is a conversion chart and rules
to go from V+V to champions. this is the only place i know of this is
published.
HIGH BID- 9.00 BIDDER- mark

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Subject: Re: Templates - compiled ideas
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 98 08:18:54 -0500
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From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 2/5/98 8:51 PM Anthony Jackson (ajackson@iii.com) Said:

>Hm...I was thinking more about templates, and came to a realization:
>coming up with a 'brick template' isn't all that useful, because the newbie
>player doesn't know he wants to be a 'brick'. He knows 'I want to turn
>into living steel' or some such thing -- its the person who already knows
>the conventions who says 'oh, that's a brick'. As such, I think we're
>looking at templates in the wrong way -- templates should be classified by
>special effect. I.e. don't come up with a 'brick template' -- come up with a
>'body of X' template. Sure, its less flexible -- but it might well get
>the point across faster than a'brick template' would.

Or we could simply change the names:

Tough-Guy (Brick)
Beam-Guy (Projector)
Mind-Guy (Mentalist)
Fast-Guy (Speedster)
Tricky-Guy (Desolid, Shapeshift, Darkness, Etc)
Gadget-Guy (Gadgeteer)
Martial Arts-Guy (Duhh)
Etc.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 06:26:23 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: [Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about
deflection)]]
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At 08:45 PM 2/5/1998 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>But which you can avoid via a Dive for Cover. Thus, it is, in fact, no
>different than if you had the ability Teleportation, UAO, AE, and used
>this mass teleportation for Dive for Cover, thus making _everyone_
>Dive for Cover.
>
>Except, of course, that you couldn't save buildings, and everyone
>would have moved.

This being the big weakness of relying on Dive For Cover. If DFC was a
Power, one might be able to stick an Advantage on that, but that wouldn't
really be any better than a new Advantage for Missile Deflection. (Putting
up an XDM Gate is probably the model to work from, though.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Templates - compiled ideas
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:34:56 -0500 (EST)
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Jonathan Lang wrote:
> Try this idea: use the template approach that you described in your last
> post - but leave out Step 2, and use more Add-ins. I believe that this is
> along the lines of what Anthony was suggesting... (?)

I don't think that more granular add-ins would be helpful to the newbie.
As the number of add-ins goes up, the number of choices goes up, which
again could overwhelm the newbie. That's why I plan to include three
levels of base archetype (Brick, SuperBrick and UltraBrick). The problem
that I am running into is Special Effect. If the player wants to be a
gadgeteer, where do I put the OAFs? Do I make a bunch of different
add-ins:

Fire beam: 5D6 EB, fire
Cold beam: 5D6 EB, cold
Pistol: 1 1/2D6 RKA, OAF gun

That would make the add-in list huge and unmanagable. While I'm writing
this, I'm also thinking about how big it would end up being in a source
book. Is 4 pages too long? How about 6? 8?

Joe

PS. I hope to update my last post with more Ultra and Super archetype
template this evening when I'm not at work.

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 06:35:35 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Another place for templates?
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At 06:48 PM 2/5/1998 -0600, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>I had planned to stay entirely out of the template discussion, but I guess
>I'll settle for "mostly out". I like the notion of templates. I think
>they should be as simple and ready-to-use as possible, given that they're
>for beginning players. If the characters aren't perfect, so what? Any
>players who decide to stick with the game can modify or redesign the
>character later on.

Agreed.

>There may be a second use for such things, though, where a bit more
>complexity needn't be a problem. The impending release of The Ultimate
>Super Vehicle naturally makes one think of The Ultimate Super Base. Rather
>than release such a book on its own, though, I'd favor incorporating into
>The Utlimate Super Team, on the theory that a team is more likely than a
>single hero to have much of a base; and that those single heroes who have
>bases will likely have a sidekick, or support staff, or followers of some
>type. You could argue that's just another sort of team.

Actually someone (whose exact name escapes me at the moment) has been
working on The Ultimate Super Team for some time now. This dates back to
before the Hero/ICE split, however, and when I last mentioned it to Bruce
he hadn't heard from the author in some time. Still, hero base rules were
in the works for that one.

>Anyway, comic-book super teams usually have a half dozen or more members
>that can be pigeonholed into one of 12 or 15 broad categories. Perhaps a
>form of template, or archetype, could be included in such a Team book, with
>strategy and tactic suggestions for different sorts of teams based on their
>composition.

That's a good idea. Hopefully it will be passed on to whomever actually
ends up with the book.

>The book would also have to cover things like Perks than might be available
>to team members that the individual heroes couldn't get on their own, like
>access to the company QuinJet, which the lone hero couldn't afford to
>build. But I digress. The point is, for those of you who really want to
>complexify the template idea, perhaps pushing it to the point where a brand
>new player wouldn't want to deal with it, but a more experienced player
>would love it, consider very simple writeups (templates) for possible
>inclusion in BBB5, and perhaps more involved/detailed/flexible writeups
>(archetypes?) for an Ultimate Team book.

Hey Damon, maybe you should consider getting in line to write TUST. :-]
---
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 06:43:53 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Templates - compiled ideas
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At 10:04 PM 2/5/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>AJ> Hm...I was thinking more about templates, and came to a realization:
>AJ> coming up with a 'brick template' isn't all that useful, because the
>AJ> newbie player doesn't know he wants to be a 'brick'. He knows 'I want
>AJ> to turn into living steel' or some such thing
>
>That just means you have to word things properly. For instance:
>
> Brick Template: You are strong and tough. You can throw cars
> around, and bend girders with your hands. You shrug off attacks
> that would pulverize a normal person.

This brings to mind one problem I've experienced with the word "brick"
to mean someone with super-strength: if you haven't played Champions, then
you probably have never heard that word used in that context. The term is
derived from the VIPER villain of the same name. Almost everyone else
would use the term "Strongman" or something similar ("Strongarm" if you
want to be gender neutral).
Hopefully this is something that the author of The Ultimate Brick (yes,
it still bears that title, the last I heard) will keep in mind.
---
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Templates
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:49:44 -0500 (EST)
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> > These are quite basic building blocks, with the expectation that two or more
> > stats will be bought up by every character. As they stand now, they're
> > adequate for beginning heroes with little combat experience and who are
> > lacking in intensive training, hence the relatively low DEX and SPD figures.
> > Think early X-Men, when Professor X had just recently gathered them.
>
>
> I think this assumption is part of the problem. We keep chanting
> our mantra of "beginning-level characters," and "like the comic book
> characters in their beginnings".
>
> The problem is, a newby brought in by love of the comics won't see
> it this way. They'll see the system as being unable to do a proper
> Batman, Wolverine, Cable, or Spiderman. If we just talk about recommended
> level, they'll be quite right.
>
> I think we should rethink the "default" level for characters.

Remember, a starting player's impression of the system is his overall
utility compared to the experienced players.

In my example post, I allowed for varying levels of characters. The GM
could say, use an Ultra-archetype and then 10 add-ins. The add-ins that I
am using balance adequately with the disadvantages but if you add up the
character points and disads, the character made with my system will have
more character points than someone using the full rules. This should not
be a real problem since they are not point break tweaked.

Joe

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Templates - compiled ideas
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 07:02:39 -0800
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On Thursday, February 05, 1998 10:02 PM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:


>
<snip>
>
>
> And rightfully so. Duplication is expensive for more reason than
>just utility. It also tends to allow a player to completely
monopolize a
>game. When you move, say, 20 times to the rest of the group's one,
>everyone else is going to get pretty bored. I'd probably not play in
such
>a game.


Hey! I just had a great idea! (TFIC) Give your speedster Duplication,
with the special effect that he moves so fast its as if there were
twelve of him....

(G, D, & R)

Filksinger

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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Templates
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:03:35 -0500 (EST)
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> > Bricks Martial Egoists Energy Projectors
> > Artists and Others
> > CHAR
> > SPD 4 5 5 5
> > Cost = 120 120 110 100
> >
> > There's much that can be criticized in using these figures as the character
> > templates. Following in the footsteps of Desmarais, Jackson, Rat, and
> > others, I would change them to something like the following.
> >
> > Bricks Martial Egoists Energy Projectors
> > Artists and Others
> > CHAR
> > SPD 3 5 4 4
> >
>
> I haven't checked the other stats yet, but these are too low.
> This template thing needs to be based on the standard power levels,
> not our own personal uses.

How are these two low, there are still 130-150 more CPs to spend?

> The BBB gives the following:

[Examples of averages snipped]

Remember, if the GM wants a low powered game and the bases for the
template system has all of the characters at Spd 5 then the template
system is useless for him. You'll notice that in my basic archetypes I
went so far at to make Bricks speed 2, Speedsters 4, and other 3. The
Super archetype will look a lot like the second set above and the Ultra
archetype will look like that set from Champions III. If the templates
are going to have any utility, they are going to have to allow for more
than one style of play.

Joe

PS Why do I keep mentioning my archetype post? Because only one person
so far has said anything about it. I don't want to do a lot more work on
it if I'm off base with it. Hopefully tonight I'll finish some of the
Ultra archetypes so that the system will be more complete. (I only made
this comment be I feel like I'm trying to sell something having posted
about the system three times now. I'm beginning to annoy myself.)

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 08:29:27 -0700
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
Subject: Re: The "Radiation Accident" (Long)
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Leah L Watts wrote:

> Has anyone else on the list tried something like this? Anyone have hints
> on running "radiation accidents"?

I've played in a campaign that did this. I'll run down what happened and
maybe it can help you out.

The characters started as 25 point normals. We all got chased/attacked
by demons (we all ended up being the 'one lucky survivor' from a horror
movie), and saved by some mysterious force, who told us we were going to
work for them now. We (as palyers) were given an equipment allotment,
and spent our few experiance, and were off on our first mission. At this
point it felt a lot like Cthulu-esq stuff; a bunch of non/minor skilled
heros against pretty tough demons. About 2 months (real time) later,
about 8 sessions and 2 missions, we were taken in for the training that
all new recruits should have had. We kicked up to 75+75 (Herioc level).
After the training we did another few months, and the end of the last
mission took us to hell, where we had to get someone to cast a spell to
save the world (well not hell- the Dungeon Dimensions, and it was
Rincewind, although the characters had no clue what this meant). The
casting of the spell gave us all super powers. That is about where we
stand now....

Onr interesting point in this approach (and I'm not sure if that will
neccisarily having any bearing on your situation but...) the PCs while
superpowered, don't think of themselves as superheroes. My character
(started life as a house wife with flashes of second sight) is a pretty
nasty mentalist, and she thinks of herself more as an agent ("James Bond
with powers"). Thus she would do things that would cause any self
respecting super to at least question her own actions if not outright
stop those actions.

In your situation the jump is not as far, but would Indy Jones, given
Magical powers (or whatnot) hesitate to kill a Nazi or some bad guy
archelogist who was in the way of Truth Justice and Light? Something to
think about.
>
> What happens if I get a gadget hound in the JI section of the game? It's
> a little difficult to explain how any sort of "radiation accident" would
> give someone a gadget pool or powered armor. Also, one player I've
> discussed this game with is interested in going through the RA and having
> me surprise him with his new powers -- suggestions on how to run this?

<Tounge in cheek>
Find your old copy of Champs 3 and 'roll up' the superpowers.
</Tounge in cheek>
Other than that I have no advice. I'm oneof those players (And GMs) that
insist on the player doing the work on the character.

Hope my rambling helps.

--Mhoram

--

Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages,
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and
goes through their pockets. -- Eddy Peters

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:06:21 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Reply-To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Templates - compiled ideas
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> Hey! I just had a great idea! (TFIC) Give your speedster Duplication,
> with the special effect that he moves so fast its as if there were
> twelve of him....

Not bad. Runs into the same monopolization problem, but it would
handle a lot of SFX. Maybe in a VPP?


> (G, D, & R)


Huh?


-Tim Gilberg


Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:16:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Templates - compiled ideas
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Joe Mucchiello writes:
> levels of base archetype (Brick, SuperBrick and UltraBrick). The problem
> that I am running into is Special Effect. If the player wants to be a
> gadgeteer, where do I put the OAFs? Do I make a bunch of different
> add-ins:
>
> Fire beam: 5D6 EB, fire
> Cold beam: 5D6 EB, cold
> Pistol: 1 1/2D6 RKA, OAF gun

What I was thinking is pretty simple; more or less a list of 'typical
abilities' for various special effects, and how to buy them. Many effects
aren't going to be initially obvious (for example, 'cloud of smoke' for a
fire-based character), and people won't necessarily know that 'ice slides' (per
iceman, etc) is a special case of flight.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 17:29:22
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [Re: Templates - compiled ideas]
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Tim Gilberg wrote:

>
>
> > (G, D, & R)
>
>
> Huh?

Grin, Duck, and Run. To avoid the attacks from people who object to Duplication, does not create actual Duplicates.

Filksinger


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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:29:34 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Templates - compiled ideas
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---Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>
> Jonathan Lang wrote:
> > Try this idea: use the template approach that you described in
your last
> > post - but leave out Step 2, and use more Add-ins. I believe that
this is
> > along the lines of what Anthony was suggesting... (?)
>
> I don't think that more granular add-ins would be helpful to the
newbie.
> As the number of add-ins goes up, the number of choices goes up, which
> again could overwhelm the newbie. That's why I plan to include three
> levels of base archetype (Brick, SuperBrick and UltraBrick). The
problem
> that I am running into is Special Effect. If the player wants to be a
> gadgeteer, where do I put the OAFs? Do I make a bunch of different
> add-ins:
>
> Fire beam: 5D6 EB, fire
> Cold beam: 5D6 EB, cold
> Pistol: 1 1/2D6 RKA, OAF gun
>
> That would make the add-in list huge and unmanagable. While I'm
writing
> this, I'm also thinking about how big it would end up being in a
source
> book. Is 4 pages too long? How about 6? 8?

Any player comfortable enough with the rules to play a gadgeeer
doesn't need a system of templates and plug-ins to create his character.

The classic gadgeteer is a game-machanically complicated character and
not one that I would ever suggest to some still learning the system.


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Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:36:47 -0800
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Re[2]: Templates
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Len wrote:

>There's much that can be criticized in using these figures as the character
>templates. Following in the footsteps of Desmarais, Jackson, Rat, and others,
>I would change them to something like the following.


> Bricks Martial Egoists Energy Projectors
> Artists and Others

<characteristics snipped>

>Cost = 116 101 90 71

I can see understand the need to update the stat lists from CIII, but
any standard templates should have equivalent costs. Perhaps, like
someone else stated, 120 for bricks and MAs, 100 for others. That would
make the template system much easier to use.

Richard

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:43:27 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]
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On 5 Feb 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> TRG> Sure it is. Try 100% damage reduction, UBO.
>
> The only way I can see 100% Reduction is to see Reduction changed from
> PD/ED/MD to special effects -- to wit, instead of buying limited PD and ED
> reduction to protect against "fire attacks", buy "Fire Reduction".

Arguably, _all_ defenses should be bought vs a specific (set of) special
effect(s), instead of the current system of Flash Defense/Ego
Defense/PD/ED/Power Defense/whatever I'm forgetting.

OTOH, working with the system as it stands, 100% Damage Reduction for
120 points seems reasonably-costed for the typical offensive power level.
A suggestion that 100% Reduction not bought "vs one special effect" should
be considered carefully before allowing it would be in order, though.


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Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:44:47 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Templates
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---Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> PS Why do I keep mentioning my archetype post? Because only one
person
> so far has said anything about it. I don't want to do a lot more
work on
> it if I'm off base with it. Hopefully tonight I'll finish some of the
> Ultra archetypes so that the system will be more complete. (I only
made
> this comment be I feel like I'm trying to sell something having posted
> about the system three times now. I'm beginning to annoy myself.)

Your post is sitting in my inbox at home waiting for a more in-depth
read (which means I won't get a chance to really read it carefully
until I get home Sunday). The read-through I gave left me with one
overall impression - "to much".

While I think the idea of multiple power levels has merit, it also
adds significantly to the overall complexity of the template concept -
a concept that was supposed to "decomplexify" (or maybe
"decomplexicate" - it is so hard to create new words sometimes)
character creation for neophite players.

My experience with new gamers and gamers new to Hero is that they tend
to be overwhealmed by the number of options - even options that they
aren't considering using add to this feeling.

I am a strong proponent of keeping ideas offered for public
consumption as simple as possible, and leaving scaling the templates
to individual GMs.

-=>John Desmarais
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Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:49:35 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]
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On Thu, 5 Feb 1998, Brian Wong wrote:

> > Another option is a AE Dispell with enough power to affect
> > everything. This is a powerful effect, after all.
> >
> Even this would not stop powers passing through.
> Example, Portal has this defense going in the area above him.
> Meanwhile, in orbit in a spacesuit, Sharpshooter is aiming his laser ray
> rifle and carefully calibrating to blast portal. He is way away from portal
> and his power.
>
> Sharpshooter fires his rifle.
>
> Special effects call: the laser makes it's way down and is then sucked into
> dimension X.
> Rules Call: Sharpshooter is out of the area of the gateway, so he hits Portal.

He said Dispel, not Suppress or Drain. There's no rules-based
justification for suggesting that Sharpshooter's attack wouldn't be
affected.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:50:23 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]
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On Thu, 5 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

> > Like I previously stated, this is worth a hell of a lot more than the 60
> > points of Missile Deflection w/ a +2 advantage costs. You are trying to
> > create an absolute defense in Hero, a thing the system does not even
> > consider as viable.
>
> Sure it is. Try 100% damage reduction, UBO.

Something which doesn't exist in the system, so it's hardly a
counter-example.


Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Templates
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:53:20 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> PS Why do I keep mentioning my archetype post? Because only one person
> so far has said anything about it. I don't want to do a lot more work on
> it if I'm off base with it. Hopefully tonight I'll finish some of the
> Ultra archetypes so that the system will be more complete. (I only made
> this comment be I feel like I'm trying to sell something having posted
> about the system three times now. I'm beginning to annoy myself.)
>
Well yes actually, you're off base and a little out of sync.
you'll notice the rest of the discussion is on setting ground rules that are
agreed upon before we construct the templates.
The last thing we need is multiple competing template systems.

If you don't like the mainstream proposals, say so, and why, and maybe
it will change. But please lets work together on this.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:56:12 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!
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On Thu, 5 Feb 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:

> An "Advantaged" Advantage (I suggest calling it "Enhanced Power")
> shouldn't have a magnifying glass next to it; it should have a Stop Sign.

I still maintain that it's a terrible idea right off the top.

> Listed examples can include using different Characteristics against
> Entangle,

Don't follow that.

> using Missile Deflection against Area Effect or non-Ranged
> attacks, and similar unusual effects.

Whether Missile Deflection works against a given AE attack is currently
listed as an SFX call; I'm inclined to leave it that way.

Using Missile Deflection against non-ranged attacks is just a nonsensical
concept. Characters can Block HTH attacks by default; the only thing
Missile Deflection does is extend that no ranged attacks.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:58:44 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!
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On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Dataweaver wrote:

> Magnifying glass for Limited Power, Stop sign for Advantaged Power (it's
> much easier to abuse Create-your-own-Advantage than it is to abuse

What does been easily abused have to do with getting a Stop Sign?

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Templates Discussion
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:14:52 -0800 (PST)
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Hello;

Ok, where do we stand proposal wise?
I remember mine, but not the others (got them saved on another machine)

Currently I'm doing an average of the stats of all 250 point characters in the
BBB.

I don't think using champ III as a building block is a good idea.
That system gives mismatched characters that aren't viable.

I'm on with the idea of a set of bases, one for each archetype,

then add 1 to 2 plugins and a background plugin.

Some plugins would be base specific, and would therefore build upon
themes set forth in the base. Others would be generic and not make any
assumptions about which base they are being used with.

The specific bases could therefore be afforded the ability to do more
intense work with a base, where-as the generic plugins would only be
adders.

In my proposal, all bases are 120 points, they include the average
stats of a final character in that archetype (this so that if a non base
specific plugin is used, you still get a functional character, using the
minimums might not garauntee that), and a few of the powers which could
be assumed to be found among 80-90% of characters of that archetype (once
again, so that if you use a generic plugin, it will still give a workable
character).

I propose plugins be built at 50 and 100 points.
50 point plugins build characters who dabble in a theme, getting two of them
allows a character with two mixed special effects...

100 point plugins build a character who is exclusively devoted to that theme.

this leaves 30 points.

20 of which go to the background plugin.

10 of which are unspent so the player can tweak as desired, or leave unspent
until they've played a few games.


Next would come a system for selecting disads by grouping disads into themes

So you could say; pick three from the list below for the Super Partiot
theme... Or whatever...

That about sums up my views on the issue.

I have to get back to finishing my stat avereging.

Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Templates
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:47:32 -0500 (EST)
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Brian Wong:
> Me:
> > PS Why do I keep mentioning my archetype post? Because only one person
> > so far has said anything about it. I don't want to do a lot more work on
> > it if I'm off base with it. Hopefully tonight I'll finish some of the
> > Ultra archetypes so that the system will be more complete. (I only made
> > this comment be I feel like I'm trying to sell something having posted
> > about the system three times now. I'm beginning to annoy myself.)
> >
> Well yes actually, you're off base and a little out of sync.
> you'll notice the rest of the discussion is on setting ground rules that are
> agreed upon before we construct the templates.
> The last thing we need is multiple competing template systems.
Not a free market kind of person, huh? :-)

>If you don't like the mainstream proposals, say so, and why, and maybe
> it will change. But please lets work together on this.

I'm actually having a hard time following the mainstream proposals. Did
anyone agree to a power level? No. Do I expect enough people will? No.
Is the system going to be written in the BB5 or in the Champions 5 source
book? Are disadvantages part of the system, or does the player create
them normally? Are disadvantages part of the templates?

I don't think there is any utility in a single set of template bases which
cannot scale. It would be too much work for a new GM to have to make
modifications to a template system which does not work with his game idea.
I have the feeling that in the end, one size will fit none. That is why I
went with the multiple bases. As I said in another post, I started
thinking that my system would be too big to be practical in a printed book
once all of the bells and whistles are completed.

Anthony Jackson:
>Me:
>> Pistol: 1 1/2D6 RKA, OAF gun
>
>What I was thinking is pretty simple; more or less a list of 'typical
>abilities' for various special effects, and how to buy them. Many
>effects aren't going to be initially obvious (for example, 'cloud of
>smoke' for a fire-based character), and people won't necessarily know
>that 'ice slides' (per iceman, etc) is a special case of flight.

I don't see how you can make a list of 'typical abilities' that will not
be many pages long. Especially if you think that list includes 'ice
slides'. I think the sample characters in the book are about as close as
you are going to get to easy character generation. (Martial Artist? Here,
play Seeker.)

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:08:15 -0800
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Re: Templates Discussion
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Rook wrote:

>20 of which go to the background plugin.

What exactly is a background plugin? Are they things like "Scientist"
and "Reporter" and "Ex-cop" and "Donut chef"? If so, I would suggest
15 points instead. Just enough for 5 standard skills.

Richard

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
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Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:12:53 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Templates
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On Fri, 6 Feb 1998, Len Carpenter wrote:

>
> On February 5, 1998, Richard G. Schwerdtfeger wrote:
>
> > Why doesn't someone check Champions III (IIRC)? Isn't that the one
> > with the Champions random character generation tables?
>
> For those who don't own Champions III, these are the Characteristics for the
> four character types--bricks, martial artists, egoists, and energy projectors
> and others--used in the random character generator system.

While we're on this subject, does anyone else remember an old article
about "Turtle Power Armor", which was set up to provide the modular design
of battlesuits? Seems to me that there might be something of use hiding
in there somewhere...

As for the characteristic bases Len so graciously provided, I have to say
that I like his revised figures. Personally, I'd tinker with them so that
they'd all cost the same, and I'd add a fifth one ("Brain") which would be
to an Egoist what a Martial Artist is to a Brick - more finesse (higher
INT) at the expense of less raw power (lower EGO). Scientists,
gadgeteers, and some mage concepts might fall better under a Brain concept
than under an Egoist one...



---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Templates: Average of all stats in BBB
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:16:45 -0800 (PST)
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Hello;

I've spent the morning working on these numbers using a claculator
that had all the keys laid out horizontally on one line rather than the
standard number pad. So it took mne a bit of extra time. :)
Anyway, without further ado, this is, for better or worse, the BBB
standard power level setting on stats:

Ok:

Here are the stat values and averages from the BBB, so we know what to shoot
for in these templates.

In the number's below there will be two averages following the listing.
The first is an average of everything. The second is with the high and low
thrown out. I believe the second presents a better example as it avoids fluke
characters with very unusual stats.

A third column lists what I believe should be the value for the
template bases. Again keep in mind that my view is that the bases should have
the average stat and not the minimum. My reason on this is:
1. averages easier to deal with
2. Gives the player a clear idea from the start of what they're built on.
3. Allows generic plugins to be used without those plugins making non
viable characters. Base specific plugins will know what's in the base
so will be able to add and delete. Generics not knowing, will only be
able to add, but if they're are adding onto minimums, yet in the wrong
areas, the result will be a useless character.


Martial Artists: Aveall Ave base
S 25,20,30,15,25,23 23 23.25 23
D 26,26,26,30,26,15 24.833 26 26
C 23,20,23,18,30,15 21.5 21 21
B 10,12,10,10,13,13 11.33 11.25 11
I 13,18,10,13,10,20 14 13.5 13
E 10,11,11,14,14,13 12.166 12.25 12
P 13,18,18,18,20,20 17.833 18.5 18
Co 18,12,20, 8,10,12 13.33 13 12
Pd 15,15,20,10,11, 8 13.166 12.75 13
Ed 14,11,16,10,10, 8 11.5 11.25 11
Sp 6, 6, 6, 7, 6, 5 6 6 6
Re 10,12,11,10,11, 8 10.33 10.5 10
En 46,40,50,36,60,30 43.66 43 43
St 35,33,37,27,43,33 34.66 34.5 34

Bricks:
S 60,55,60,50,55,70 58.33 57.5 58
D 18,23,18,18,23,15 19.166 19.25 19
C 28,18,28,28,28,30 26.66 28 28
B 16,10,15,15,13,20 14.833 14.75 15
I 18,23, 5,13,10, 5 12.33 11.5 11
E 12,10,10,11,10, 5 9.66 10.25 10
P 25,20,25,15,25,20 21.66 22.5 23
Co 10,10,10,10,18,10 11.33 10 10
Pd 30,18,28,22,22,15 22.5 22.5 22
Ed 20,17,20,22,20,13 18.66 19.25 19
Sp 4, 5, 4, 5, 5, 3 4.33 4.5 4
Re 13, 7,18,16,12,10 12.66 12.75 13
En 56,36,56,40,56,60 50.66 52 52
St 48,30,65,50,44,56 48.833 49.5 50

Energy Projectors:
S 23,15,30,10,15,13,10, 5,15, 5,13 14 14 14
D 24,23,23,20,23,21,26,15,20,26,26 22.454 22.889 23
C 23,25,28,25,23,23,25,25,15, 5,23 21.818 23 23
B 11,10,11, 9,12,10, 9,10,10, 5,10 9.727 10 10
I 13,10,18, 8,10,10,13,14,20,25,13 14 13.44 13
E 10,11,11, 8,11,10, 8,10,18,20,13 11.818 11.33 11
P 15,15,20,20,15,15,10,15,20,25,13 16.636 16.44 16
Co 16,16,14,14,12,14, 2, 2,14,20,18 12.909 13.33 13
Pd 10,10,20,10,13, 8, 9,15, 5,10, 7 10.636 10.22 10
Ed 10,15,20,10,17, 8,14,10, 5, 9, 7 11.363 11.11 11
Sp 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6, 4, 4, 4, 5 4.818 4.77 5
Re 10, 9, 4, 7,10, 6, 8, 8, 6, 2,10 7.272 7.55 8
En 46,60,46,50,46,46,50,50,30,10,46 43.636 45.55 46
St 35,31,27,27,32,39,27,28,26,10,29 28.272 29.11 29

Egoist: Very few examples, I see room for debate here, unless someone knows of
several published 250 point egoists they can point me towards.

S 10,13 11.5 10
D 18,23 20.5 18
C 18,13 15.5 15
B 10, 7 8.5 10
I 10,20 15 15
E 18,20 19 20
P 10,10 10 10
Co 10,10 10 10
Pd 9,13 11 11
Ed 12,10 11 11
Sp 5, 5 5 5
Re 7, 6 6.5 6
En 36,26 31 32
St 36,20 28 28

Hard to Classify:
Jaguar Solitaire Ocelote Tombstone Maine
MA/BR EB/EGO BR/MA MA/EB BR/EB
S 30 13 30 15 15/55
D 27 20 26 20 18
C 18 23 23 18 15
B 11 10 10 15 11
I 8 10 10 10 10
E 8 20 15 11 10
P 20 13 20 20 10
Co 4 18 18 2 10
Pd 19 21 18 8 6/26
Ed 15 19 14 8 5/25
Sp 5 5 6 4 4
Re 10 8 11 7 6
En 36 46 46 36 30
St 35 29 40 33 26

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Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:22:33 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: [Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)]
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On Fri, 6 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

>
> > TRG> Sure it is. Try 100% damage reduction, UBO.
> >
> > The only way I can see 100% Reduction is to see Reduction changed from
> > PD/ED/MD to special effects -- to wit, instead of buying limited PD and ED
> > reduction to protect against "fire attacks", buy "Fire Reduction". And I
> > would not allow more than one special effect per character to start, much
> > like the restriction on NND attacks.
> k
>
> I do like your 100% SFX reduction. Heck, I like the idea of SFX
> reduction to go along with the rest. (Send it to Steve Long, it's a
> wonderful concept.) The nice thing is that is stops any type of damage of
> a SFX. It can simulate a lot of nice effects.
>
>
> However, regular reduction should be expanded to the 100% level.
> Put a huge Stop Sign on it, but put it in the book. It's not that bad,
> really. The high cost makes it prohibitive. 120 point to be totally
> impervious to physical attacks.

OK; add a new entry to the Conditional Power Limitation (currently a
subset of Limited Power, but hopefully will be seperated out in H5): Only
works against a single special effect: -1/2 L. So 100% Damage Reduction,
only vs. Fire, would cost 80 points.

> For the AE deflect thing, just buy this UBO, AE. Or, more
> appropriately, as the character is controlling it, UAO, AE.

Nah... Deflect is already UAO be default - you use it against incoming
attacks. A flat-out AE should be sufficient.

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Templates
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:23:31 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> ---Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> > PS Why do I keep mentioning my archetype post? Because only one
> person
>
> While I think the idea of multiple power levels has merit, it also
> adds significantly to the overall complexity of the template concept -
> a concept that was supposed to "decomplexify" (or maybe
> "decomplexicate" - it is so hard to create new words sometimes)
> character creation for neophite players.
>
Agreed.

> My experience with new gamers and gamers new to Hero is that they tend
> to be overwhealmed by the number of options - even options that they
> aren't considering using add to this feeling.
>
Yeah. I worried a little about that with my proposal, but the rewording
of it I did this morning might help a little. If they're classified right.

> I am a strong proponent of keeping ideas offered for public
> consumption as simple as possible, and leaving scaling the templates
> to individual GMs.

Definatly. Even my own proposal is not at the power level I would
use in my games. You can bet I'd rewrite it a little to my own power level
if I used it. But I think we're shooting to match the BBB as much as possible.

I also think the templates should avoid the really complex character
types for now.

Number 1 and 2 on that list are the Dr. Strange and Inspector Gadget
types.

Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:27:35 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Templates Discussion
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---Brian Wong wrote:
>
> Hello;
>
> Ok, where do we stand proposal wise?
> I remember mine, but not the others (got them saved on another
machine)
>
> Currently I'm doing an average of the stats of all 250 point
characters in the
> BBB.
>
> I don't think using champ III as a building block is a good idea.
> That system gives mismatched characters that aren't viable.
>
> I'm on with the idea of a set of bases, one for each archetype,
>
> then add 1 to 2 plugins and a background plugin.
>
> Some plugins would be base specific, and would therefore build upon
> themes set forth in the base. Others would be generic and not make any
> assumptions about which base they are being used with.
>
> The specific bases could therefore be afforded the ability to do more
> intense work with a base, where-as the generic plugins would only be
> adders.
>
> In my proposal, all bases are 120 points, they include the average
> stats of a final character in that archetype (this so that if a non
base
> specific plugin is used, you still get a functional character, using
the
> minimums might not garauntee that), and a few of the powers which
could
> be assumed to be found among 80-90% of characters of that archetype
(once
> again, so that if you use a generic plugin, it will still give a
workable
> character).

I don't think 120 points won't be enough if you try to make the
template the "average" for the archetype. I really think you're
better off making the template - which is the starting point of the
archetype to be built on - represent a reasonable minimum set of
characteristics and powers for the archtype. This gives you a
template that's much easier to build on 120 points.


> I propose plugins be built at 50 and 100 points.
> 50 point plugins build characters who dabble in a theme, getting two
of them
> allows a character with two mixed special effects...
>
> 100 point plugins build a character who is exclusively devoted to
that theme.
>
> this leaves 30 points.
>
> 20 of which go to the background plugin.
>
> 10 of which are unspent so the player can tweak as desired, or leave
unspent
> until they've played a few games.

You might want to build a few template+plug-in combinations just to
play around with. If usable templates can be built for 40 and 80
points, it leaves the player enough points left to really custumize
the character (10 really isn't enough).


> Next would come a system for selecting disads by grouping disads
into themes
>
> So you could say; pick three from the list below for the Super Partiot
> theme... Or whatever...

This idea I like, although it may end up being easier for the player
if the disad packages are a bit more formalized (ie. here's the disad
package for the Super Patriot - no picking and choosing. Just a
thought).


-=>John Desmarais
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:32:11 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Templates - compiled ideas
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On Fri, 6 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

>
> > > I don't know the character, but taking away Jackson's biased
> > > commentary says that Duplication is the way to go.
> >
> > Nothing biased about it; Triad can split herself into three Duplicates,
> > and Madrox can split himself into more than twenty Duplicates. That many
> > Duplicates is prohibitively expensive in comparison to buying, say, more
> > than twenty Followers...
>
>
> And rightfully so. Duplication is expensive for more reason than
> just utility. It also tends to allow a player to completely monopolize a
> game. When you move, say, 20 times to the rest of the group's one,
> everyone else is going to get pretty bored. I'd probably not play in such
> a game.

Interesting; X Factor never had a problem with Madrox hogging the
spotlight...

> An option is to make them summoned creatures or followers. The
> latter seems good if you don't mind the GM controlling the duplicates
> instead of you.

Comparing Duplicate to Summon Duplicates to Duplicate Followers:

Duplicate costs 2 pts for every 5 pts of Duplicates you have; Summon costs
30 pts, +1 pt for every 5 pts each Duplicate would have, +5 pts to have
twice as many Duplicates; Followers cost 1 pt for every 5 pts of
Duplicates, +5 pts to double the number of Duplicates.

In the first case, you automatically have full control over all of the
Duplicates; in the second case, you don't; in the third case, you can't
even Duplicate at will - it's more like having a bunch of clones of
yourself working for you.

So what's so terrible about adding a line to Duplicate along the lines of
"for +x points, double the number of bodies you can have" or "for +x
points increase the number of bodies you can have by one"?

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:37:05 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Templates
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On Fri, 6 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

>
> > These are quite basic building blocks, with the expectation that two or more
> > stats will be bought up by every character. As they stand now, they're
> > adequate for beginning heroes with little combat experience and who are
> > lacking in intensive training, hence the relatively low DEX and SPD figures.
> > Think early X-Men, when Professor X had just recently gathered them.
>
>
> I think this assumption is part of the problem. We keep chanting
> our mantra of "beginning-level characters," and "like the comic book
> characters in their beginnings".
>
> The problem is, a newby brought in by love of the comics won't see
> it this way. They'll see the system as being unable to do a proper
> Batman, Wolverine, Cable, or Spiderman. If we just talk about recommended
> level, they'll be quite right.

...and that's where the add-ons/plug-ins/whatever come into play. A
character who takes a base and a low-level plug-in is one of Prof X's
original X-Men when they first started out; a character that takes its
full complement of plug-ins is the modern-day Wolverine.

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:37:20 -0800 (PST)
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> > TRG> Sure it is. Try 100% damage reduction, UBO.
> >
> > The only way I can see 100% Reduction is to see Reduction changed from
> > PD/ED/MD to special effects -- to wit, instead of buying limited PD and ED
> > reduction to protect against "fire attacks", buy "Fire Reduction". And I
> > would not allow more than one special effect per character to start, much
> > like the restriction on NND attacks.
>
> I do like your 100% SFX reduction. Heck, I like the idea of SFX
> reduction to go along with the rest. (Send it to Steve Long, it's a
> wonderful concept.) The nice thing is that is stops any type of damage of
> a SFX. It can simulate a lot of nice effects.

Yeah. I sent along such an idea in my questionaire for adjustment
powers. Suggesting that the default setting be pick a special effect, and
picking a single power despite special effect be the one that is an advantage.

Good idea to do that for damage reduction as well, IMHO.

> However, regular reduction should be expanded to the 100% level.
> Put a huge Stop Sign on it, but put it in the book. It's not that bad,
> really. The high cost makes it prohibitive. 120 point to be totally
> impervious to physical attacks.

Yep. And very in genre.

> For the AE deflect thing, just buy this UBO, AE. Or, more
> appropriately, as the character is controlling it, UAO, AE.

yeah, that's a good idea.

Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Templates Discussion
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:40:07 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> Rook wrote:
>
> >20 of which go to the background plugin.
>
> What exactly is a background plugin? Are they things like "Scientist"
> and "Reporter" and "Ex-cop" and "Donut chef"? If so, I would suggest
> 15 points instead. Just enough for 5 standard skills.
>
Everything not part of the Super ID.

All non combat skills, detective stuff, perks, wealth, contacts, etc...
Tends to go from 25 to 50 in most established games.
Not sure what it runs on average in the BBB, but 20 I think allows
more cushion room than 15. Something to think about though.

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Templates
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:44:10 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> While we're on this subject, does anyone else remember an old article
> about "Turtle Power Armor", which was set up to provide the modular design
> of battlesuits? Seems to me that there might be something of use hiding
> in there somewhere...
>
From Champions II?

Isn't it also in the BBB or one of the Almanacs?

Actually, it's close to what we're doing, save for two points:

1. It builds agents
2. It only has one base, and then each agent only gets one plugin.

No background plugins or ability to have half this effect/half that effect
characters.
But it is very close to the concept.

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Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:52:14 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Hero?
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On Fri, 6 Feb 1998, Len Carpenter wrote:

> I checked out the above website[1] to examine Erol's "percent Hero"
> rules. There's much to recommend in them for their power to
> eliminate a good deal of the minimaxing of Hero characteristics. A
> 22 INT becomes actually better than an 18 INT, and a 23 for DEX or
> EGO no longer proves a holy number to be revered for its mystical
> efficiency. They also smooth out the awkward probability skips and
> jumps as stats grow higher.
>
> The rules do call for a notable revision of the game, though, so I
> doubt that any such percentile system will ever see more than
> sporadic adoption by GMs. Still, kudos to Erol for developing and to
> Vox for webbing them.

If fractional point-accounting were to be implemented, much of that
smoothing out could be accomplished using the existing dice system; just
change "round to a whole number in the player's favor" to "round to the
nearest tenth of a point" and change the purchasing schemes of PD, ED,
SPD, REC, and STUN to a "drop fractions" approach instead of "round in the
character's favor" approach. So a STR of 15 will give you a PD of 3, and
a STR of 14 will only give you a PD of 2, but it will only cost you a
fifth of a point to raise that 2 to a 3...

1. http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:56:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Duplication (was re: templates)
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On Fri, 6 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> And rightfully so. Duplication is expensive for more reason than
> just utility. It also tends to allow a player to completely monopolize a
> game. When you move, say, 20 times to the rest of the group's one,
> everyone else is going to get pretty bored. I'd probably not play in
> such a game.

Hm? If someone has 20 duplicates, that doesn't mean they get 20x the attention
from the GM -- I'd just require character actions to be assigned in groups.
'Ok, five of me go off searching for information on the streets, another five
hit the library, and the remaining ten hang around the base in case someone
attacks'. I player who figured that I would individually deal with what each
duplicate did would rapidly discover his error -- if you're cloned, all
duplicates have the same personality, which means I can just deal with one of
them and call it representative of the whole;)
Part of the problem is that duplication in H4 includes multiform, which
automatically makes it more complicated than having a bunch of clones wandering
about. Without getting into the argument as to whether clones are better/worse
than dissimilar duplicates, I wish they hadn't made that change.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:56:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Duplication (was re: templates)
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On Fri, 6 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> And rightfully so. Duplication is expensive for more reason than
> just utility. It also tends to allow a player to completely monopolize a
> game. When you move, say, 20 times to the rest of the group's one,
> everyone else is going to get pretty bored. I'd probably not play in
> such a game.

Hm? If someone has 20 duplicates, that doesn't mean they get 20x the attention
from the GM -- I'd just require character actions to be assigned in groups.
'Ok, five of me go off searching for information on the streets, another five
hit the library, and the remaining ten hang around the base in case someone
attacks'. I player who figured that I would individually deal with what each
duplicate did would rapidly discover his error -- if you're cloned, all
duplicates have the same personality, which means I can just deal with one of
them and call it representative of the whole;)
Part of the problem is that duplication in H4 includes multiform, which
automatically makes it more complicated than having a bunch of clones wandering
about. Without getting into the argument as to whether clones are better/worse
than dissimilar duplicates, I wish they hadn't made that change.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:58:46 -0800
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Re[2]: Templates Discussion
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part
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Rook wrote:
>I wrote:
>>What exactly is a background plugin? Are they things like "Scientist"
>>and "Reporter" and "Ex-cop" and "Donut chef"? If so, I would suggest
>>15 points instead. Just enough for 5 standard skills.
>
>Everything not part of the Super ID.

>All non combat skills, detective stuff, perks, wealth, contacts, etc...
>Tends to go from 25 to 50 in most established games.
>Not sure what it runs on average in the BBB, but 20 I think allows more cushion
>room than 15. Something to think about though.

If we are trying for "beginning hero", then they shouldn't have much in
the way of contacts or favors.

The only reason I suggested 15 as a basis is then that leaves another
15 points as discretionary points, using your point breakdown. I would
just rather see a few more points for customizing the characters.

Richard

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Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 12:02:04 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Templates Discussion
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---John Desmarais wrote:
> I don't think 120 points won't be enough if you try to make the

That should say "! don't think 120 points will be enough..."

-=>John Desmarais
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 98 20:33:44
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:07:16 -0800 (PST), Anthony Jackson wrote:

>qts writes:
>> >Because the AOE advantage on missile deflection means you can deflect
>> >missiles in an area, not that you can deflect area effects.
>>
>> So Link it to an appropriate Area Effect eg Force Wall.
>
>Well, if you're willing to use a force wall, who needs missile deflection
>anyway? The missile deflection won't add anything.

Sure it will: it will reflect the attack - that's why you're buying it!

>>
>> So how else would you model Reflec? All rules are subject to the GM's
>> discretion.
>
>Well, if it was only deflecting attacks, I'd model it as +DCV or +defenses, vs
>light-based attacks only. If it actually reflects attacks I probably wouldn't
>allow it in the first place, but there's really no good way within the system
>of doing this.

Sure there is: Missile Reflection. It's there, so why not use it? If
you have to stretch something, then so long as the GM says ok, go for
it.


qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 12:55:12 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Templates Discussion
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---Duane Morris wrote:
>
>
> I've been following this with some interest, and this looks
promising..
>
> On Fri, 6 Feb 1998, Brian Wong wrote:
>
> <some good stuff deleted>
>
> > In my proposal, all bases are 120 points, they include the average
> > stats of a final character in that archetype (this so that if a
non base
> > specific plugin is used, you still get a functional character,
using the
> > minimums might not garauntee that), and a few of the powers which
could
> > be assumed to be found among 80-90% of characters of that
archetype (once
> > again, so that if you use a generic plugin, it will still give a
workable
> > character).
>
> 120 points of characteristics for the bases?? That's fine for a
brick or
> a MA, but a waste for EP's or Mentalists. While I understand the
desire
> to make things as consistent as possible for a novice player, I don't
> believe that 120 is a reasonable figure, and would prefer to go with
> either 75 or 100 points <I know that 75 points for a brick base is
> ridiculous, but 100 is still almost too much for EP/Mentalist types>.

The template is not just characteristics. It's characteristics plus
any powers that would be common to the archetype. The exact split of
points to characteristics and powers varies from archetype to
archtype. (Although, look at the energy blasters in the BBB -
building an average energy blaster cost 111 points for just the stats).


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Subject: Re: Templates Discussion
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 98 15:58:19 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 2/6/98 2:08 PM Richard G Schwerdtfeger (RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com)
Said:

>What exactly is a background plugin? Are they things like "Scientist"
>and "Reporter" and "Ex-cop" and "Donut chef"? If so, I would suggest
>15 points instead. Just enough for 5 standard skills.

Yep, and Lawyer, Doctor, FireFighter, Etc.

There should be enough room (IMO) for 1 PS, 1 complementary PS
(familiarity), 2 KS's, 1 AK's & 3-5 Background/Other Skills/Perks. That
adds up to, lets see, um carry the seven, 8 points + (9-15) points for a
total of 17-23.

For Example:

Reporter:
When not running around in spandex, this character is a reporter for a
local newspaper or local tv station. This package adds the following
skills:

2 PS: News Reporter (11-)
1 PS: Criminology (8-)
2 KS: Local Crime Facts & Personalities (11-)
2 KS: Local Politics (11-)
2 AK: Local City (11-)
3 Deduction (11-)
3 Shadowing (11-)
1 Perk: Press Pass
2 Contact: Editor
2 Contact: Local Stoolie
----
20

This package also includes the following disadvantages:

-10 Psych Lim: Curious (Common, Moderate)
- 5 Watched: Local Police (More Powerful, NCI, 8-, Watching Only)
- 5 Rivalry w/ Major Competitor's Lead News Reporter
----
-20

Taking a reporter skill set almost has to have a set of associated
disad's with it, in order to make any sense at all.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:03:58 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Templates - compiled ideas
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Fri, 6 Feb 1998, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Joe Mucchiello writes:
> > levels of base archetype (Brick, SuperBrick and UltraBrick). The problem
> > that I am running into is Special Effect. If the player wants to be a
> > gadgeteer, where do I put the OAFs? Do I make a bunch of different
> > add-ins:
> >
> > Fire beam: 5D6 EB, fire
> > Cold beam: 5D6 EB, cold
> > Pistol: 1 1/2D6 RKA, OAF gun
>
> What I was thinking is pretty simple; more or less a list of 'typical
> abilities' for various special effects, and how to buy them. Many effects
> aren't going to be initially obvious (for example, 'cloud of smoke' for a
> fire-based character), and people won't necessarily know that 'ice slides' (per
> iceman, etc) is a special case of flight.

Here, here! Furthermore, if you ensure that all powers are built so that
their costs are multiples of (say) 30 points, you can remove most of the
need for point accounting.

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingley@platsoft.com>
Subject: Templates
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:19:26 -0800
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To: champ-l@omg.org

I'm joining in late for this discussion.

Here are some templates I created years ago that I still use for quick
character design. They all cost 190.


Brick Template
50 STR
15 DEX
25 CON
15 BOD
10 INT
10 EGO
20 PRE
10 COM
15 PD
10 ED
4 SPD
15 REC
50 END
53 STN

30 Armor +10 DEF
10 Power Def
15 Combat Levels
5 Leap +5"


Martial Artist Template
15 STR
23 DEX
15 CON
10 BOD
13 INT
14 EGO
18 PRE
10 COM
8 PD
8 ED
5 SPD
6 REC
30 END
25 STN

30 Martial Arts
15 Combat Levels
15 STR or DC
15 Martial Skills (Stealth, Acro...)
10 Martial Weapon
5 Senses


Projector Template
10 STR
20 DEX
20 CON
10 BOD
10 INT
10 EGO
15 PRE
10 COM
5 PD
6 ED
5 SPD
6 REC
40 END
25 STN

25 Energy EC
25 +20 Force Field @ END
25 20" Flight or Teleport @ END
25 10d EB, 33 STR TK, or 5 DEF Entangle
10 Combat Levels


Mentalist Template
10 STR
20 DEX
23 CON
11 BOD
15 INT
18 EGO
10 PRE
10 COM
5 PD
5 ED
4 SPD
8 REC
50 END
28 STN

20 Mental EC
20 4d Ego Attack
20 8d Scan, Illusion, Telepathy, or Control
20 +20 Force Field or 8 DEF Force Wall
11 15/0 Mental Def
5 Flash Def


Speedster Template
15 STR
30 DEX
15 CON
10 BOD
10 INT
10 EGO
15 PRE
10 COM
8 PD
8 ED
8 SPD
8 REC
30 END
25 STN

10 Speed EC
25 Run +15" (4x NCM)
10 Deflect all
6 +2d HA
5 +7 PD (vs move by/thru)


Gadgeteer Template
10 STR
14 DEX
13 CON
10 BOD
20 INT
14 EGO
10 PRE
10 COM
4 PD
4 ED
4 SPD
5 REC
26 END
22 STN

100 Gadget Pool
25 Control Cost (OIF, 50-point max active cost)
7 Gadgeteering 15-
3 Inventor 13-

--

Actually, the whole thing was part of a random superhero generator I'd
designed. Here's a snippet from it:

Character Template
3-8 Brick
9-10 Martial Artist
11-12 Projector
13 Mentalist
14-16 Gadgeteer
17 Speedster
18 Roll Twice

Secondary Powers (Roll Twice)
3-5 Characteristics
6-7 Improve Attack
8-9 Improve Movement
10 Improve Defense
11 Skill Levels
12 Extra Background Skill Group
13-14 Weird Power
15-16 Enhanced Sense
17-18 Roll Again

...and there was a table for each of those categories, as well as a d6 x
d6 table of 36 skill groups like reporter, lawyer, engineer, spy, etc.

I've also developed a system for skill groups being ranked as Fair,
Good, and Great, at a cost of 5, 15, and 25 points, respectively. I've
probably got around 60 or so done.

For example:

Actor
25 15 5 Skills
3 3 3 Acting
3 3 1 Disguise
3 3 1 Oratory
3 3 1 Streetwise or High Society
3 3 * Conversation
3 3 * Persuasion
5 Cramming
3 Seduction
1 Trading
1 High Society or Streetwise
1 Mimicry
-4 -3 -1 Actor Package

Actors specialize in taking on roles and behaving as some other persona
would. Much of the time, this also involves using professional make-up
to change the actor's appearance.

The actor's skill can apply to impromptu one-on-one situations as well
as rehearsed scripts intended for a general audience. Used in this
fashion, an actor can often persuade others. Most actors can fit in
wherever they go: "I'm not a gangster, but I play one on TV."

Exceptional actors can alter their own voice to match a particular role,
and can memorize an entire script in less than an hour.

Also: disc jockey, model, professional speaker

--

Dave Mattingly
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/1905/pwrpnt.html

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Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:21:22 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Templates Discussion
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On Fri, 6 Feb 1998, Richard G Schwerdtfeger wrote:

> If we are trying for "beginning hero", then they shouldn't have much in
> the way of contacts or favors.

>From what I understand, we're going for "beginning player", _not_
neccessarily "beginning hero".

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:31:40 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
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Subject: Re: Templates Discussion
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On Fri, 6 Feb 1998, Duane Morris wrote:

>
> I've been following this with some interest, and this looks promising..
>
> On Fri, 6 Feb 1998, Brian Wong wrote:
>
> <some good stuff deleted>
>
> > In my proposal, all bases are 120 points, they include the average
> > stats of a final character in that archetype (this so that if a non base
> > specific plugin is used, you still get a functional character, using the
> > minimums might not garauntee that), and a few of the powers which could
> > be assumed to be found among 80-90% of characters of that archetype (once
> > again, so that if you use a generic plugin, it will still give a workable
> > character).
>
> 120 points of characteristics for the bases?? That's fine for a brick or
> a MA, but a waste for EP's or Mentalists. While I understand the desire
> to make things as consistent as possible for a novice player, I don't
> believe that 120 is a reasonable figure, and would prefer to go with
> either 75 or 100 points <I know that 75 points for a brick base is
> ridiculous, but 100 is still almost too much for EP/Mentalist types>.

Mmm...not neccessarily; I could see a 75-point Brick base, if three of the
brick plugins were Strong-Guy (additional STR, CON, BODY, and calculated
stats), Giant-Man (several levels of Growth), and Colossus (several levels
of Density Increase), for instance. In the comic books, Dr. Pym isn't
very strong; but he still qualifies as a Brick because, when he Grows,
he's big, strong, and tough...

> Base 75 100
> Power 1 75 50
> Power 2 50 50
> Background 25 25
> Custom 25 25
> === ===
> Total 250 250

I'd vote for the second one. Or go with 30-/60-point plugins, a 10-point
Background plug-in, and 20 pts for customizing. (Most powers work better
in conjunction with multiples of 30 than they do with multiples of 25;
witness HKA/RKA, Drain, Dispel, Trasfer, Flash, and Entangle...)

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:39:09 -0800
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Re[2]: Templates Discussion
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David wrote:
<quote>
Yep, and Lawyer, Doctor, FireFighter, Etc.

There should be enough room (IMO) for 1 PS, 1 complementary PS (familiarity), 2
KS's, 1 AK's & 3-5 Background/Other Skills/Perks. That adds up to, lets see, um
carry the seven, 8 points + (9-15) points for a total of 17-23.

Reporter:
When not running around in spandex, this character is a reporter for a
local newspaper or local tv station. This package adds the following skills:

2 PS: News Reporter (11-)
1 PS: Criminology (8-)
2 KS: Local Crime Facts & Personalities (11-)
2 KS: Local Politics (11-)
2 AK: Local City (11-)
3 Deduction (11-)
3 Shadowing (11-)
1 Perk: Press Pass
2 Contact: Editor
2 Contact: Local Stoolie
----
20
</quote>

But don't a few of these come as Everyman skills? Like the PS:Reporter
and AK:Local City?

And doesn't the BBB advise against contacts for new characters? (This
one is from memory...I don't have the book at work, and I don't use
contacts anyway.)

Richard

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Templates Discussion
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:42:23 -0800 (PST)
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>
> ---Brian Wong wrote:
> >
> >
> > In my proposal, all bases are 120 points, they include the average
> > stats of a final character in that archetype (this so that if a non
>
> I don't think 120 points won't be enough if you try to make the
> template the "average" for the archetype. I really think you're
> better off making the template - which is the starting point of the
> archetype to be built on - represent a reasonable minimum set of
> characteristics and powers for the archtype. This gives you a
> template that's much easier to build on 120 points.
>
Going above 120 gets into the realm of do much diference in the
sub archetypes.

I originally started at 150 for a base.

at 150 the base would be a full set of stats and all the common powers
bought at a very low level. Or just the frameworks (ie, and empty EC).
At 100 you'd have nothing but stats and maybe a few points in some
powers.

So where's 120? a midpoint? Or unworkable?

I suppose it could go to either 100 with plugins being
60 / 120 pointers.

Or go to 150 with plugins being 40 / 80 pointers.

Thoughts on those?

Maybe I should break my own suggestion and try writing up bases
for these diferent ideas and see what works... I've been deleberatly avoiding
doing that so far until we all agreed on a system to do it with, then
divided up who got what...
100 would be perfect if I felt I could justify it for Bricks and MA's,
and still fit generic Plugins on them that would give usable characters.
(sure we could fit the rest of their stats into the brick-plugins,
or into the MA plugins, but that destroys the ability to make generic
plugins. I feel that base-specifice plugins should be modifying a workable
set of stats into a slightly different, up or down, set of workable stats.
That means that generic plugins can just add to a workable set of stats.

> > I propose plugins be built at 50 and 100 points.
>
> You might want to build a few template+plug-in combinations just to
> play around with. If usable templates can be built for 40 and 80
> points, it leaves the player enough points left to really custumize
> the character (10 really isn't enough).
>
>
I'll test it out privatly. I don't want to post it so much until
we have an agreed system, so I don't step on toes.

> > Next would come a system for selecting disads by grouping disads
> into themes
> >
> > So you could say; pick three from the list below for the Super Partiot
> > theme... Or whatever...
>
> This idea I like, although it may end up being easier for the player
> if the disad packages are a bit more formalized (ie. here's the disad
> package for the Super Patriot - no picking and choosing. Just a
> thought).
>
That's a good idea.
Perhaps both methods. Ie, pick from the list of mini-packs until you have 150
points of disads, or take a theme pack. But I definatly think your idea is
good. It will get them in play much faster.

I'll be honest when I say that even after 13 years of Hero, doing
the disads is always the hardest part for me. So I may even end up adapting
a disad pack system onto my own PC's and NPC's. :)

Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

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Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:47:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
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qts writes:
> >Well, if you're willing to use a force wall, who needs missile deflection
> >anyway? The missile deflection won't add anything.
>
> Sure it will: it will reflect the attack - that's why you're buying it!

Hm...I'd have no problem with linking reflection to a force wall, though I'd
rule that the attack is only reflected if the force wall doesn't break.

> Sure there is: Missile Reflection. It's there, so why not use it? If
> you have to stretch something, then so long as the GM says ok, go for
> it.

The problem with missile reflection is that its cost is unrelated to the power
of the attack it can reflect; if it weren't for the fact that the missile
reflection power is seriously unbalanced to start with, I wouldn't have any
particular problems with allowing damage shield on it.

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Templates
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:47:33 -0800 (PST)
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>
> ...and that's where the add-ons/plug-ins/whatever come into play. A
> character who takes a base and a low-level plug-in is one of Prof X's
> original X-Men when they first started out; a character that takes its
> full complement of plug-ins is the modern-day Wolverine.
>

hey good idea. SO far I've proposed only 50 and 100 point plugins,
both designed to build 250 point characters.
You seem to hint at an idea of building even bigger plugins for the
greater heroes.
so say a 200 point plugin added onto a 120/100 point base would build
up not only powers, but beef up stats into a higher power level game's
setting.


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Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:48:49 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: The Great Linked Debate
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On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:

> Much of it stems from two sources. One, of course, is the writing of
> the Linked Limitation in the HSR. If one takes a strictly literal
> word-for-word reading of the Limitation as written there, then it says that
> a Power with this Limitation can only be used when the Power to which it is
> Linked is turned on. However, the other Power can still be used without
> the Linked Power, and the two do not need to be used in proportion to one
> another.
> The other source is the original version of the Limitation, the "Based
> On" that was in earlier editions of Champions. I don't have an earlier
> edition with me (uh, my dog ate it), but if I recall correctly, both Powers
> had to be used together, and in proportion. We who have played and loved
> the game for that long remember this version of the Limitation, and don't
> understand why it was changed. (It's probably Rob Bell's fault, eh?)

That's one part. There's another, more hotly-contested, issue which is
also referred to as "The Great Linked Debate", despite being pretty much
entirely unrelated: whether multiple Powers can be used together in a
single attack by default.


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Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:52:01 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: a question about deflection
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On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, Brian Wong wrote:

> And people tell me there's no need for a generic, definable advantage.

There most assuredly is not.

> No matter how well you define it in advance, there's always more concepts out
> there that need a kludge to do.

I can't think of many "kludges" which are less desirable than creating a
new Power or Modifier.

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Templates Discussion
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:52:06 -0800 (PST)
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> >>What exactly is a background plugin? Are they things like "Scientist"
> >
> >Everything not part of the Super ID.
> >All non combat skills, detective stuff, perks, wealth, contacts, etc...
> >Not sure what it runs on average in the BBB, but 20 I think allows more cushion
> >room than 15. Something to think about though.
>
> The only reason I suggested 15 as a basis is then that leaves another
> 15 points as discretionary points, using your point breakdown. I would
> just rather see a few more points for customizing the characters.

Sounds like a valid idea. Then a character who does need more background
could simply use a few of the freebies to flesh out.

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Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:55:08 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Point Crocks?????
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On Sun, 1 Feb 1998, Remnant wrote:

> If you don't think humans in a realistic campaign who have high STR should
> look muscular regardless of their COM or PRE you need to think again.
> Looking muscular by itself doesn't necessarily make someone more attractive
> or more impressive, but it will generally have an effect. In the REAL
> world high STR people have REAL muscles. These muscles take space and
> generally show, REALLY.

So your contention is that nobody in the REAL world is ever significantly
stronger than they look? I can't say that that seems to be a very credible
stance to me.

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Templates Discussion
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:00:09 -0800 (PST)
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> >What exactly is a background plugin? Are they things like "Scientist"
>
> There should be enough room (IMO) for 1 PS, 1 complementary PS
> (familiarity), 2 KS's, 1 AK's & 3-5 Background/Other Skills/Perks. That
> adds up to, lets see, um carry the seven, 8 points + (9-15) points for a
> total of 17-23.
>
> For Example:
>
> Reporter:
> When not running around in spandex, this character is a reporter for a
> local newspaper or local tv station. This package adds the following
> skills:
>
> 2 PS: News Reporter (11-)
> 1 PS: Criminology (8-)
> 2 KS: Local Crime Facts & Personalities (11-)
> 2 KS: Local Politics (11-)
> 2 AK: Local City (11-)
> 3 Deduction (11-)
> 3 Shadowing (11-)
> 1 Perk: Press Pass
> 2 Contact: Editor
> 2 Contact: Local Stoolie
> ----
> 20
>
> This package also includes the following disadvantages:
>
> -10 Psych Lim: Curious (Common, Moderate)
> - 5 Watched: Local Police (More Powerful, NCI, 8-, Watching Only)
> - 5 Rivalry w/ Major Competitor's Lead News Reporter
> ----
> -20
>
> Taking a reporter skill set almost has to have a set of associated
> disad's with it, in order to make any sense at all.

Hmm...
0 point background plugins?

technically it's two linked plugins, a 20 pointer, and a 20 point disad
plugin.

Might be a good idea to list them together like you did.
That way the beginning player immediatly has a grasp on playing the secred ID.

I still think 'the man with no background' is actually a background
in and of itself that should give a few odd things costing points. If only
to show to players who use it as a cop out to not buy any non combat stuff
that yes, it can be explored into some kind of flavorful construction.

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Subject: Re: Re[2]: Templates Discussion
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 98 17:08:40 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 2/6/98 4:39 PM Richard G Schwerdtfeger (RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com)
Said:

>
>But don't a few of these come as Everyman skills? Like the PS:Reporter
>and AK:Local City?
>
>And doesn't the BBB advise against contacts for new characters? (This
>one is from memory...I don't have the book at work, and I don't use
>contacts anyway.)

It reccomends an AK: Home (Vague, Even by Hero Standards) & a 1 pt
Familiarity w/ a Professional Skill.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Templates Discussion
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:11:50 -0800 (PST)
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> I've been following this with some interest, and this looks promising..
>
> I think a few more points for customization would be nice. More hassles,
> however better differentiation between characters.
>
True. However we want a character for beginning player.
Which means it needs to be microwvable. Take of the wrapper, stick it in
the microwave for 2 minutes, and out comes a complete character.

The more custom points we allow, the more the player has to know about
what they are doing game system wise.
Having a very low number means it will be so small that they could
even leave it unspent until later and still join in play right away.

> Possibly something like the following structures might work better <my
> $0.014>
>
> Base 75 100
> Power 1 75 50
> Power 2 50 50
> Background 25 25
> Custom 25 25
> === ===
> Total 250 250
>
How about:

Base 100 150
Power 1 60/120 40/80
Power 2 60 40
Background 20 20
Custom 10 10
=== ===
Total 250 250

Only if power 1 is at the lower cost do you buy a power 2.

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Templates Discussion
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:32:37 -0800 (PST)
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> > The template is not just characteristics. It's characteristics plus
> > any powers that would be common to the archetype. The exact split of
> > points to characteristics and powers varies from archetype to
> > archtype. (Although, look at the energy blasters in the BBB -
> > building an average energy blaster cost 111 points for just the stats).
>
> Combining characteristics and powers?? I honestly don't think that we
> should go there. Yes it would be nice, but we can't lump all the
> types into one mold <IMHO>.
>
> For most Bricks and MA's I've built, I view their characteristics as being
> their framework, while for EP's and the odd Mentalist, I'll use either a
> MP or EC, depending upon how I feel..
>
> I think the thing that bothers me the most about combining the two is that
> I perceive the result as being too .. 'plain Vanilla'.. with little to
> differentiate between different characters of the same type.

Yes it will often be Vanilla. But you don't want to give a new
player to much complexity.

ON THE OTHER HAND.....

If we assume that base spefic plugins will be allowed to both add
and subtract (unlike a generic plugin which just adds), then we can do a
lot of work with a base provided we stay in theme.

The key will be to not put anything which is totally useless without a
matching plugin into the base. That may present some dificulty. Not sure there.

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Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 23:05:31 +0000
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: doc's d&d/v&v auction update #3
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Alurmic@aol.com wrote:
>
> The following are the rules of the auction on the listed items.

Is it my imagination or are we getting a copy of this everyday?

-Mark L

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Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 18:08:52 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@mars.superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Templates - compiled ideas
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 03:03 PM 2/6/98 -0600, Dataweaver wrote:
>On Fri, 6 Feb 1998, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
>> Joe Mucchiello writes:
>> > levels of base archetype (Brick, SuperBrick and UltraBrick). The problem
>> > that I am running into is Special Effect. If the player wants to be a
>> > gadgeteer, where do I put the OAFs? Do I make a bunch of different
>> > add-ins:
>> >
>> > Fire beam: 5D6 EB, fire
>> > Cold beam: 5D6 EB, cold
>> > Pistol: 1 1/2D6 RKA, OAF gun
>>
>> What I was thinking is pretty simple; more or less a list of 'typical
>> abilities' for various special effects, and how to buy them. Many effects
>> aren't going to be initially obvious (for example, 'cloud of smoke' for a
>> fire-based character), and people won't necessarily know that 'ice
slides' (per
>> iceman, etc) is a special case of flight.
>
>Here, here! Furthermore, if you ensure that all powers are built so that
>their costs are multiples of (say) 30 points, you can remove most of the
>need for point accounting.

That is what I did. I used 25 points. Some are 24, some are 26. Some
include END so that if the power uses a lot of END, the resulting character
has enough END to use the power.

Or should we ignore END?
Joe

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Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 17:15:54 -0600
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Re: doc's d&d/v&v auction update #3
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Mark Lemming wrote:

> Alurmic@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > The following are the rules of the auction on the listed items.
>
> Is it my imagination or are we getting a copy of this everyday?

Nope, not your imagination. Why is this being sent to a mailing list
anyway??


Todd

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X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 18:22:16 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@mars.superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Templates
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At 01:19 PM 2/6/98 -0800, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>I'm joining in late for this discussion.
[snip]
Except for the Gadgeteer, these will be useful for my Ultra level
archetypes. If Dave doesn't mind, I may borrow them and add about 20
points to them.

>Actually, the whole thing was part of a random superhero generator I'd
>designed. Here's a snippet from it:
It's funny, I was thinking about adding random tables to the generator. I
didn't do it because I wanted to hunt down the Random Mutant Generator from
the Mutant File first.

>I've probably got around 60 or so done.
>Actor
[snip]

Not only was that long, but 60 of those would make a whole book. I don't
think this project should grow into an entire book. :-)

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Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:25:19 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Templates Discussion
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On Fri, 6 Feb 1998, Brian Wong wrote:

> I suppose it could go to either 100 with plugins being
> 60 / 120 pointers.

Workable...

> Or go to 150 with plugins being 40 / 80 pointers.

40/80-point plug-ins would conflict with such powers as HKA/RKA, Dispel,
and Transfer. Otherwise, they're workable. Personally, I'd go with 30 /
60 / 90 / 120 pointers.

> Maybe I should break my own suggestion and try writing up bases
> for these diferent ideas and see what works... I've been deleberatly avoiding
> doing that so far until we all agreed on a system to do it with, then
> divided up who got what...
> 100 would be perfect if I felt I could justify it for Bricks and MA's,
> and still fit generic Plugins on them that would give usable characters.
> (sure we could fit the rest of their stats into the brick-plugins,
> or into the MA plugins, but that destroys the ability to make generic
> plugins. I feel that base-specifice plugins should be modifying a workable
> set of stats into a slightly different, up or down, set of workable stats.
> That means that generic plugins can just add to a workable set of stats.

Perhaps a Brick _should_ be treated as a plug-in, as well as a base. A
Brick base without a Brick Plug-in would be like a normal weight-lifter -
big and strong, in comparison to most people, but outclassed by a
legitimate Brick. OTOH, this would let you build a Brick like Dr. Pym -
use a different base ("scientist"), and add a Brick-style plug-in (in this
case, Growth).

I could see the system being based off of three "archtypes", based
exclusively off of standard attributes:

Brick - the focus of this archtype is on raw physical power - STR, CON,
and BODY.
Athlete - similar to the Brick, the Athlete focuses on honing her body -
but she does so by emphasizing DEX and SPD over STR, CON and BODY.
Thinker - These guys are the mentalists, the mages, the gadgeteers, and
the con-men. Emphasis goes to INT and EGO, with INT getting the focus.

Follow this up with a number of plug-ins, probably two "power plug-ins"
and a background plug-in ("role"?), a number of customizer points, one or
two Disad plug-ins, and a number of Disad customizer points. Amongst the
Power plug-ins, you'd want "Strong Guy", which, when combined with the
Brick Archtype gives you your stereotypical brick; "Metal Guy", which is,
for the most part, Density Increase (SFX: transforms into a being of
metal); "Giant Guy", with several levels of Growth; "Mentalist", which
includes a selection of Mental Powers and an additional boost to EGO
(combined with the Thinker archtype, this would give you a stereotypical
mentalist); "Martial Artist"; ...

I'd classify the plug-ins into three groups: Minor (say, around 30
points), Standard (60), and Augmented (120) - a character could take one
Augmented plug-in, two Standard plug-ins, four Minor Plug-ins, or a
Standard and two Minor Plug-ins. Minor plug-ins tend to be single-power
items such as Energy Blast or Shapeshift, while Standard and Augmented
plug-ins tend to be packages of related powers, and - almost by definition
- will usually qualify for EC.

> > > Next would come a system for selecting disads by grouping disads
> > into themes
> > >
> > > So you could say; pick three from the list below for the Super Partiot
> > > theme... Or whatever...
> >
> > This idea I like, although it may end up being easier for the player
> > if the disad packages are a bit more formalized (ie. here's the disad
> > package for the Super Patriot - no picking and choosing. Just a
> > thought).
> >
That's a good idea.
> Perhaps both methods. Ie, pick from the list of mini-packs until you have 150
> points of disads, or take a theme pack. But I definatly think your idea is
> good. It will get them in play much faster.

Note that, in many cases, you may want to integrate a Disad Pack into a
Plug-In - Torch can generate fire, but this makes him inherently
Vulnerable to Ice... Meanwhile, DNPCs, Distinctive Features,
Hunted/Watched, etc. would almost certainly be associated with a
Background Plug-in. I'd hanlde this by listing which Disad Packs are
appropriate to each Pulg-in.

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:26:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Duane Morris <duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca>
Subject: Re: Templates Discussion
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I've been following this with some interest, and this looks promising..

On Fri, 6 Feb 1998, Brian Wong wrote:

<some good stuff deleted>

> In my proposal, all bases are 120 points, they include the average
> stats of a final character in that archetype (this so that if a non base
> specific plugin is used, you still get a functional character, using the
> minimums might not garauntee that), and a few of the powers which could
> be assumed to be found among 80-90% of characters of that archetype (once
> again, so that if you use a generic plugin, it will still give a workable
> character).

120 points of characteristics for the bases?? That's fine for a brick or
a MA, but a waste for EP's or Mentalists. While I understand the desire
to make things as consistent as possible for a novice player, I don't
believe that 120 is a reasonable figure, and would prefer to go with
either 75 or 100 points <I know that 75 points for a brick base is
ridiculous, but 100 is still almost too much for EP/Mentalist types>.

> I propose plugins be built at 50 and 100 points.
> 50 point plugins build characters who dabble in a theme, getting two of them
> allows a character with two mixed special effects...
>
> 100 point plugins build a character who is exclusively devoted to that theme.
>
> this leaves 30 points.
>
> 20 of which go to the background plugin.
>
> 10 of which are unspent so the player can tweak as desired, or leave unspent
> until they've played a few games.

I think a few more points for customization would be nice. More hassles,
however better differentiation between characters.

Possibly something like the following structures might work better <my
$0.014>

Base 75 100
Power 1 75 50
Power 2 50 50
Background 25 25
Custom 25 25
=== ===
Total 250 250



Duane.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Duane Morris <duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca> Dept. of Technical Services
Faculty of Pure and Applied Science Petrie Science Stores
York University, North York, Ontario M3J 1P3, CANADA
Voice: (416) 736-5244; Fax: (416) 736-5516

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 98 23:42:18
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
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On Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:47:19 -0800 (PST), Anthony Jackson wrote:

>qts writes:
>> >Well, if you're willing to use a force wall, who needs missile deflection
>> >anyway? The missile deflection won't add anything.
>>
>> Sure it will: it will reflect the attack - that's why you're buying it!
>
>Hm...I'd have no problem with linking reflection to a force wall, though I'd
>rule that the attack is only reflected if the force wall doesn't break.
>
>> Sure there is: Missile Reflection. It's there, so why not use it? If
>> you have to stretch something, then so long as the GM says ok, go for
>> it.
>
>The problem with missile reflection is that its cost is unrelated to the power
>of the attack it can reflect; if it weren't for the fact that the missile
>reflection power is seriously unbalanced to start with, I wouldn't have any
>particular problems with allowing damage shield on it.

So how would you suggest we modify MR? Say a -1 per 10AP?

qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 18:48:25 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@mars.superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Templates Discussion
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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[Main point at the bottom]

At 02:11 PM 2/6/98 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>> Base 75 100
>> Power 1 75 50
>> Power 2 50 50
>> Background 25 25
>> Custom 25 25
>> === ===
>> Total 250 250
>>
>How about:
>
>Base 100 150
>Power 1 60/120 40/80
>Power 2 60 40
>Background 20 20
>Custom 10 10
> === ===
>Total 250 250
>
>Only if power 1 is at the lower cost do you buy a power 2.

Here I am joining the conversation.
My method works out like this:
Base 40-45 110 - 114 190-195
Add-in 1 25/50/75 ++ 25/50/75 25/50/75
Add-in 2 25 25 25
Add-in 3 25 25/50 25/50
Add-in 4 N/A 25 25/75
Add-in 5 N/A N/A 25/50
Add-in 6 N/A N/A 25
Background + 25 25 25
Custom +++ ~15 ~15 ~15
--- -- --
Total ~150 ~250 ~375
Disads 6* 10* 15*
Disad points 60-75* 100-150* 150-225*
Max dup ** 1 2 4
+ Could just be another Add-in, depending on what the add-ins contain.
Some one might take two backgroup add-ins to support Secret ID.
++ If you choose 50 then you skip the next Add-in, if you choose 75 then
you skip the next 2 Add-ins, etc.
+++ 15 is arbitrary, I could easily be convinced that 10 or 20 is a better
number. Custom points was Step 4 in my suggestion. It should have
examples like the cheap Perks and Talents. Remind people that Comeliness
exists, etc.
* Each listed disad has a 10-15 pt value. Some count as 2 disads and are
worth 25 pts. [This differs from my example post in quantity.]
** Maximum duplicated powers. [This keeps the power levels in line for
campaign balance, i.e. no one takes 9/8 rPD/rED armor twice in a 150 pt game.]

I used 25 as my multiple because it allows low-level powers: 5d6 Mind
Control, 2d6 Entangle (Sticky), 10/10 Force Field + add +10 END to
characeter sheet, etc. Characters could the same power twice to get better
powers.

MAIN POINT: I don't believe that the character generated has to add up to
250 pts exactly. I am far more interested in creating a system that will
generate competitive characters that do not break campaign balance. I'm
operating under the dim hope that new GMs will be working with new players
trying to play a new RPG (to them). You all assume that the GM will know
what is and what is not a balanced character. That's why some of my powers
include additional END on the character sheet; that's why I think the
system should support more than one campaign power level.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 18:51:05 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@mars.superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Templates Discussion
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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[Main point at the bottom]

At 02:11 PM 2/6/98 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>> Base 75 100
>> Power 1 75 50
>> Power 2 50 50
>> Background 25 25
>> Custom 25 25
>> === ===
>> Total 250 250
>>
>How about:
>
>Base 100 150
>Power 1 60/120 40/80
>Power 2 60 40
>Background 20 20
>Custom 10 10
> === ===
>Total 250 250
>
>Only if power 1 is at the lower cost do you buy a power 2.

Here I am joining the conversation.
My method works out like this:
Base 40-45 110 - 114 190-195
Add-in 1 25/50/75 ++ 25/50/75 25/50/75
Add-in 2 25 25 25
Add-in 3 25 25/50 25/50
Add-in 4 N/A 25 25/75
Add-in 5 N/A N/A 25/50
Add-in 6 N/A N/A 25
Background + 25 25 25
Custom +++ ~15 ~15 ~15
--- -- --
Total ~150 ~250 ~375
Disads 6* 10* 15*
Disad points 60-75* 100-150* 150-225*
Max dup ** 1 2 4
+ Could just be another Add-in, depending on what the add-ins contain.
Some one might take two backgroup add-ins to support Secret ID.
++ If you choose 50 then you skip the next Add-in, if you choose 75 then
you skip the next 2 Add-ins, etc.
+++ 15 is arbitrary, I could easily be convinced that 10 or 20 is a better
number. Custom points was Step 4 in my suggestion. It should have
examples like the cheap Perks and Talents. Remind people that Comeliness
exists, etc.
* Each listed disad has a 10-15 pt value. Some count as 2 disads and are
worth 25 pts. [This differs from my example post in quantity.]
** Maximum duplicated powers. [This keeps the power levels in line for
campaign balance, i.e. no one takes 9/8 rPD/rED armor twice in a 150 pt game.]

I used 25 as my multiple because it allows low-level powers: 5d6 Mind
Control, 2d6 Entangle (Sticky), 10/10 Force Field + add +10 END to
characeter sheet, etc. Characters could the same power twice to get better
powers.

MAIN POINT: I don't believe that the character generated has to add up to
250 pts exactly. I am far more interested in creating a system that will
generate competitive characters that do not break campaign balance. I'm
operating under the dim hope that new GMs will be working with new players
trying to play a new RPG (to them). You all assume that the GM will know
what is and what is not a balanced character. That's why some of my powers
include additional END on the character sheet; that's why I think the
system should support more than one campaign power level.

Joe
P.S. (I love Post Scripts.) I won't be updating my original post tonight.
I have a few things to digest from the other posts and I'm going out now.
Maybe tonight I'll have a more complete system to post. Will it be too
complex? That remains to be seen. If it ends up too complex, I may turn
it into a random character generator.

Return-Path: daemon@omg.org
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:54:49 -0800
From: RGSchwerdtfeger@directv.com (Richard G Schwerdtfeger)
Subject: Re: Templates
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Dave wrote:
>Actually, the whole thing was part of a random superhero generator I'd
>designed.

Any chance of seeing it somewhere? Is it on the web, or is only for
personal consumption?

>I've also developed a system for skill groups being ranked as Fair, Good, and
>Great, at a cost of 5, 15, and 25 points, respectively. I've probably got
>around 60 or so done.

Your skill group setup is pretty good. Again, I'd love to see this.

Richard

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Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 18:11:29 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
Subject: Templates porposal
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OK; after much thought, I give you my official proposal:

Use HSR exclusively; characters will be 100+150 built for the superhero
genre.

Every character gets a single 100-point base, 120 points-worth of
plug-ins, 15 points of background, and 15 points to customize.
Furthermore, disadvantages are provided by 135 points-worth of packs and
15 points to customize.

There are three bases: Brain, Brawn, and Athlete. Brain emphasizes INT,
EGO, and PRE; Brawn emphasizes STR, CON, and BODY; Athlete emphasizes DEX,
with a secondary focus on STR, CON, and BODY.

Power Plug-ins come in three sizes: Minor (30 points), Standard (60
points), and Augmented (120 points); a character can take a single
Augmented plug-in, or two Standard Plug-ins, or four Minor Plug-ins, or a
Standard and two Minor Plug-Ins. Minor Plug-ins include Shapeshift,
Flight, Energy Blast, etc. Standard Plug-ins include Brick, Giant,
Metal-man, Mentalist, Energy Projector, Martial Artist, etc. Augmented
Plug-ins will be enhanced versions of the various Standard Plug-ins.
Each Minor Plug-in entitles you to two Minor(15-pt) Disadvantage Packs or
one Standard Disadvantage Pack, unless otherwise specified; an example of
when it is otherwise specified is when Disadvantages have been added as
part of the plug-in. Likewise, each Standard Plug-in will entitle you to
one major disad pack, two standard disad packs, four minor disad
packs, or a standard and two minor disad packs, unless otherwis