Week Ending February 21, 1998

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
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Date: 15 Feb 1998 11:23:43 -0500
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>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:

q> OK, let's take a more normal entangle: glue. Let's say that the glue is
q> dissolvable by alcohol.

That is worth a limitation on the Entangle, not an inherent mechanic of the
power. Inherent to *ALL* Entangles is the "ability" for others not trapped
in them to attack them and break them from the outside. You have removed
that inherent game mechanic; I want you to justify it.

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From: "Geoff Speare" <geoff@emerald.omg.org>
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 13:15:54 -0500
Subject: TEST
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Hi, Just a test...

Geoff Speare

P.S. For those who read it anyway, Desolidification, Leaves Body
Behind, Usable Against Others, Damage Shield. :-)

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Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 13:04:34 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
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> That is worth a limitation on the Entangle, not an inherent mechanic of the
> power. Inherent to *ALL* Entangles is the "ability" for others not trapped
> in them to attack them and break them from the outside. You have removed
> that inherent game mechanic; I want you to justify it.

Easy. Add an advantage to cover it. That's the standard way to
do something with Hero. Possibly the advantage can be a little smaller if
it takes a limitating feature of having some relatively common way of
being nullified. In many ways, this would work like NND, but not exactly.
Therefore, base a new advantage somewhat on NND.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Stainless Steel Rat\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 98 20:43:03
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
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On 15 Feb 1998 11:23:43 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
>
>q> OK, let's take a more normal entangle: glue. Let's say that the glue is
>q> dissolvable by alcohol.
>
>That is worth a limitation on the Entangle, not an inherent mechanic of the
>power. Inherent to *ALL* Entangles is the "ability" for others not trapped
>in them to attack them and break them from the outside. You have removed
>that inherent game mechanic; I want you to justify it.

I don't understand: you wanted an example of breaking out of an
entangle without using superpowers, so I gave one. Further, as far as I
can tell, I have not broken the mechanic you cite.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Re: Finds at Winter Wars
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 15:51:59 CST
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> > > Well, back from an exciting, if a trifling disapointing Winter
> > > Wars. Kudos to Mr. McKinney for a fine convention.
> >
> > Thanks, I guess. Remind me not to have you serve as toastmaster when
> > I'm asked to join the Strategist's Club... (like that will ever happen)
>
> Reminder to you: Don't have me serve as toastmaster when you're
> asked to join the Strategist's Club.
>
> That good enough?

Heh!

> But seriously, the disappointments related to the Con were the
> things you really couldn't do anything about. Champions/Hero System just
> wasn't being run, and no Battletech appeared until quite late. (And by
> that time I was pre-reged for the TFOS game.)

Sorry - the battletech guys didn't get their act together for the pre-reg.

> I also found less than I wanted at the Game Auction, but those are
> _always_ crap shoots.
>
> > The other group, about a year ahead of the RPM guys, were commercial this
> > year - Tyger Volant. Frightingly, an examination of both RPM and Omniquest
> > (TY's system) shows a LOT of similiarity, and both also show their HERO
> > heritage. Our convention's previous HERO strengths (Chad Brinkley was
>
> Hmmm. I was wondering what that RPS system was. I was going to
> try it, but every time it was offered I had found something I wanted to
> play even more. Though looking back, perhaps I should have skipped on the
> Creeks and Crawdads game.

No comment.

> > Oh - and Tim - I hope you liked the room on the third floor for RPGs,
> > that's where they'll be next year for the entire convention...
>
> Actually, I thought it was great for the RPGs. It wasn't as noisy
> as the main downstairs room. I had one RPG downstairs, and it was just
> way too tough to hear what was going on. Perhpas, though, some dividers
> could be found for the third story rooms?

Ouch. I saved $400 on expenses by getting rid of them this year...


DonM.
--
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
==========================================================================

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From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Re: Finds at Winter War...
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 15:54:24 CST
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> Well, I also must say kudos to Don McKinney for Winter War. It was my first
> one I attended and had a lot of fun. I was disappointed by the lack of
> Champions games going on and the early crowded slugfust was too much for my

Early? We moved the convention forward an hour this year (our morning
schedule used to start at 8AM...)

> sluggish brain in the morning. I did enjoy AD&D over the weekend though
> since it had been a good year or two since my last AD&D game and all the GMs
> were quite talented storytellers. As far as my finds at Winter War the only

In the past, our con has been AD&D weak and HERO strong. Guess everything
changes...

> thing I picked up was The Ultimate Mentalist for 10 bucks. I know some may
> or may not feel this was a good deal, but I was thrilled myself only having
> it on disk. I saw Danger Inc. (is that right?) old book never seen it
> before, for $7, but missed getting my hands on it. Did get the James Bond
> game though, seems cool. Heard a lot of good reviews about it. Lastly I
> met Don McKinney and Tim R. Gilberg, good to meet you both. Great guys,
> sorry I didn't get a chance to game with either. Well, take it easy and
> talk at you later.

And, obviously, I need one of you to run a Champs game next year (or you
could both run one each... so you could both play one)...


DonM.
--
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
==========================================================================

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Subject: Re: The "Radiation Accident"
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,9-10,12-17,19-21,23,25-27,32-34
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:39:28 EST
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> Also, if you haven't, you might think about
>having DIFFERENT 'radiation accidents' at different TIMES. All of the
>characters don't have to be affected by the same thing.

I'd considered using the War of the Worlds as a real event to trigger
superpowers (I know where to get a CD of the original broadcast to play
during that game), but you've got a point. Running different events to
trigger superpowers would also make it easier to include some of the
pregen characters from GAC, who really should have powers before
Halloween 1938.

>>for example, the NPC circus strongman would become even stronger. On
the
>>other hand, it might be interesting to give less obvious powers -- the
>>NPC I mentioned is only 4 feet tall, giving him Growth, Shrinking, or
>>Stretching might be fun.

> Where possible, do something that's just a little "off the beaten
>track." This four-foot-tall circus strongman might be most appropriate
for
>just a little extra STR, plus a few levels of Growth that are 0 END
>Persistent, and just enough PD and ED to make him competitive against
>supervillains. He might decide that he's tired of being literally
"looked
>down on" all the time, and keep one level going all the time, then
surprise
>others when he needs to be short again by turning it off.

I was looking at the humor factor of having a character with, oh, around
a 50 STR signing up for the draft once WWII starts and getting an
automatic 4F for being under height. I could still do that though, if he
stays 4' tall in Secret ID and does his crimefighting in "big person
mode".

Leah

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:45:26 -0800
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On Saturday, February 14, 1998 10:38 AM, "qts" wrote:


>On Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:15:59 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>>
>>> >It may or may not, depending on the special effects of the
Deflection.
>>>
>>> Can you elaborate? About the only example of such that comes to
mind is
>>> a mental attack being Deflected! Even with arrow cutting, the
arrows go
>>> somewhere.
>>
>> Try a Comic Book example: Cyclops can shoot down incomming
>>attacks with his Eye Beams. They don't go anyware, they just
>>disintigrate.
>
>That's not MD, that's a RKA.


No, that's a SFX for Missile Deflection. Consider that you can use it
to stop arrows, thrown knives, possibly (depending upon SFX and what
you pay for) EB and bullets. None of these are normally stopable via
RKA. The fact that you could shoot it down in theory doesn't make it
RKA. Using that reasoning, a Missile Deflection with the SFX of "Block
the attack with hands" would just be a Strike, and Damage Shield would
stop any attack which consisted of a missile that would be destroyed
by the Damage Shield ("My 8d6 EB, Damage Shield stopped your arrows,
because it destroyed them!"). If this occurs, it is Missile
Deflection.

>>Also, for example, a character that catches items shot at him/her.
>
>I include this in arrow cutting - the objects caught go somewhere,
even
>if it is 'on the ground'.


Yes, but there is a significant difference between "arrows fly off in
all directions" and "arrows are caught and dropped to the ground".

>>Or someone who is actually hit by them, but isn't at all affected.
>
>That's Damage Reduction oa a SFX on Armour.


Can be, but doesn't have to be.

Additionally, you could have a character who performs Missile
Deflection with the SFX "Attack is teleported into another dimension",
or "Attack is disintegrated". The first sends it _somewhere_, but it
hardly counts if you deflect it properly. The second is viable, and is
not a RKA. Otherwise, I would be immune to any EB or RKA that had a
SFX of "a missile that is destroyed by passing through this Damage
Shield, AE attack, Explosion, etc.", so long as I properly applied the
destructive power.

Filksinger


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Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 23:05:52 -0600 (CST)
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From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: Finds at Winter War...
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>And, obviously, I need one of you to run a Champs game next year (or you
>could both run one each... so you could both play one)...
>
>
>DonM.

Now that's an idea, I guess Tim and I will have to start planning a game for
next year provided we are both still in the Con Scenes. Maybe we can
colaborate and come up with a cross over adventure or continuous adventure
for next con. Take it easy and talk at you later.


Sparx

=====================================================
I intend to live forever - so far, so good
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:25:13 -0800
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
Subject: Ye GODS!!(THANKS)
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Thank you everyone for the great ideas I'll make my little whipper
snapper and post him (or her; I aven't decided yet) and let you tell me
what you think....Just setting myself up for a fall eh? ;-] .....

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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 06:07:41 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Champions Mages
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On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, Rick Holding wrote:

> All in all, a well rounded mage built on 250 points. However, I should
> add that the campaign had average 15 dex, 3.5 speed.

Yes. As a GM I believe that "characteristic escalation" is the cause of
most campaign's woes when it comes to background skills. Pressure to
compete in characteristics (especially DEX and SPEED), with each other and
with their adversaries, robs players of precious points.

To fight characteristic escalation in my villain campaign, I explained
some of the benchmarks to the players. However, each and every character
came to me separately with higher than average DEX and SPEED for the
campaign, regardless of character concept. I explained that it was for
their benefit that the brakes be applied.


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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 07:15:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: And away we go...
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Just in case anyone is interested,

my first draft of Kazei Five, the anime-cyberpunk worldbook, went into to
Hero this time a week ago.

Hopefully, it will be out by the end of the year.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:03:19 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions Mages
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> > All in all, a well rounded mage built on 250 points. However, I should
> > add that the campaign had average 15 dex, 3.5 speed.
>
> Yes. As a GM I believe that "characteristic escalation" is the cause of
> most campaign's woes when it comes to background skills. Pressure to
> compete in characteristics (especially DEX and SPEED), with each other and
> with their adversaries, robs players of precious points.

And setting the levels of where Heroes will be at robs them of
distinction between the Heroic and Superheroic. A 15 Dex character is
barely better at DEX skill than a 10 DEX normal. At 3 SPD, he's only 1.5
times as fast. We don't see nearly that type of closeness of ability
between Hero and Normal in the comics.

But the main point is that we are talking about BBB power levels,
and the 23 DEX, 5 SPD average is the standard.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:06:24 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Finds at Winter Wars
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> I only have feedback on three:

Unfortunately, not the ones I really needed some help on. Ah
well.

> > 3) Roadkill -- I'd lost my old copy, so this was a nice cheap
> >replacement for a product I refused to spend cover price for a second
> >time. $2
>
> You were probably wise in both refusing to pay full price, and buying it
> at the reduced price. Road Kill isn't the most inspired supervillain group
> Hero's ever come out with, but they're not 100% useless either. In fact,
> they're quite good for a darkly humorous adventure.

Oh, agreed. But I had already paid full price and the book wasn't
worth paying full price for a second time. The group is . . .
interesting. That's a good word.


> > 7) HSA2. I've been waiting a while on my own copy of this one. $7
>
> This was a steal. The new rules in the first section (covering Change
> Environment, Requires Skill Roll, and Sense-related abilities) are very
> good, and if you don't like them for inclusion in your game they'll
> probably at least get you thinking about some things. The write-ups of
> UNTIL and the former SAT are very helpful for any game set in the Champions
> Universe (or one closely related to it).

Yeah. I'd paged through a friend's copy and liked it, but not
enough to put it at the top of my "to buy" list.

> > 8) Beat up copy of Fantasy Hero -- time to start converting oodles
> >of old AD&D modules. $10.
>
> I'm in the small minority of people who actually like the magic system
> presented there. But then again, a fantasy campaign is best when it uses a
> magic system tailored to the world in which it takes place. The given one
> (expanded upon in both of the two Companions) is designed to be fairly
> generic.

I still need the Companions and Bestiary, but I'm itching to get
going on some Fantasy Gaming. I loved the setting, hated my old Rules
Set.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:35:13 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Champions Mages
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On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

> And setting the levels of where Heroes will be at robs them of
> distinction between the Heroic and Superheroic. A 15 Dex character is
> barely better at DEX skill than a 10 DEX normal. At 3 SPD, he's only 1.5
> times as fast. We don't see nearly that type of closeness of ability
> between Hero and Normal in the comics.

Never underestimate the power of +1. Or skill levels. I do feel that GMs
need to step in and control characteristic benchmarks, and I must disagree
that the distinctions in the 10-20 range are too slight to be noticed.
Many non-Champions HERO campaigns deal exclusively with this range.
Furthermore, speed 3 is an incredible advantage--I can hardly prepend
"only" on 50% faster.

> But the main point is that we are talking about BBB power levels,
> and the 23 DEX, 5 SPD average is the standard.

I can't rely on the BBB examples as authoritative examples of how to run a
campaign. I think they're pretty bad. 23 is the mystical DEX number, isn't
it? But I put it to my players this way: even though NCM is an optional
disadvantage, if you've got a stat over 20, think of it as practically one
of your super-powers.

However, I can't and won't tell anyone else how to run their campaign. The
power settings are strictly their business. I do, however, humbly suggest
that careful monitoring of characteristics and ensuring they don't get out
of hand from the benchmarks you set does the players a service by
reassuring them that human-hero range stats *will* be adequate, and that
frees up points that players can spend in the "detail" areas.

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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:47:36 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Champions Mages
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>> > All in all, a well rounded mage built on 250 points. However, I should
>> > add that the campaign had average 15 dex, 3.5 speed.

> But the main point is that we are talking about BBB power levels,
>and the 23 DEX, 5 SPD average is the standard.

Right. This is the range that describes the 'big slow' brick as having 15-18
DEX and 4 SPD - a far better combatant than normals. If you don't want to be
continiously stomped upon in such a setting, 18 DEX 4 SPD is about
rock-bottom minimum (though Bricks can get away with less so long as they
have monster DEF). Not to mention that by virtue of the Power Pool they're
using, mages are probably 'wasting' a Phase here and there in combat - or
he's a one trick pony (and you took a VPP to be versatile...).

I think part of the problem would be resolved if more integration of skills
took place - someone suggested there should be a 'Scientist' skill as
opposed to all these SC: Blankology. If professions became synonymous with
knowledge, then the mage could take PS: Mage and PS: Scholar and to hell
with all the various little KS skills. You could always introduce a new
skill: Expert (area) if you wanted to simulate a specialist.

At the same time, I'd bump the cost of a professional skill up to 3 w/ 2
points per +1. So you want a mage? PS: Mage and PS: Scholar. Gadgeteer: PS:
Scientist and PS: Inventor. Airplane Mechanic? PS: Mechanic and Expert:
Airplane Mechanics. And so on. Or is that too simplistic?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:49:56 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Champions Mages
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On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, John and Ron Prins wrote:

> Right. This is the range that describes the 'big slow' brick as having 15-18
> DEX and 4 SPD - a far better combatant than normals. If you don't want to be
> continiously stomped upon in such a setting, 18 DEX 4 SPD is about
> rock-bottom minimum (though Bricks can get away with less so long as they
> have monster DEF). Not to mention that by virtue of the Power Pool they're
> using, mages are probably 'wasting' a Phase here and there in combat - or
> he's a one trick pony (and you took a VPP to be versatile...).

You're absolutely right. Lower DEX and SPD get stomped if the world is at
a higher level. In my campaign, I wanted 5 to be kick-butt speed, not
"average." 16/3.5 is average for the villain campaign, and captures the
feel I want (i.e. security guards can't be *completely* ignored). My "big
slow" brick range was 2-3 SPD and 10-15 DEX. I think this captures the
feel of the comics, but such subjective fuzzy impressionist statements are
always, well, subjective, fuzzy, and impressionist.

> I think part of the problem would be resolved if more integration of skills
> took place - someone suggested there should be a 'Scientist' skill as
> opposed to all these SC: Blankology. If professions became synonymous with
> knowledge, then the mage could take PS: Mage and PS: Scholar and to hell
> with all the various little KS skills. You could always introduce a new
> skill: Expert (area) if you wanted to simulate a specialist.
> At the same time, I'd bump the cost of a professional skill up to 3 w/ 2
> points per +1. So you want a mage? PS: Mage and PS: Scholar. Gadgeteer: PS:
> Scientist and PS: Inventor. Airplane Mechanic? PS: Mechanic and Expert:
> Airplane Mechanics. And so on. Or is that too simplistic?

No, it's an idea with some merit. In campaigns where the goal is role-play
finding out about the combat; role-play getting to the combat; play the
combat... this approach is superior to any I've seen. And those campaigns
are fun, even if they get old after a while. If your campaign has a flavor
where a session or two can go by without a combat, however, characters
will be aching for more refined skills to distinguish themselves.

HERO is not "one size fits all" when it comes to power settings. Our
mage-impaired friend is probably having trouble fitting into a "Champions"
genre simply because the power settings and campaign flavor are different,
and mages really do best in the more noncombat, lower power-level genres.
I do believe Champions runs more effectively at 16/3.5 with 250 point
characters, but everyone has his own solution to the "point crunch."


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:52:53 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
Subject: Re: Champions Mages
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>
> On Mon, 16 Feb 1998, John and Ron Prins wrote:

> > Right. This is the range that describes the 'big slow' brick as having 15-18
> > DEX and 4 SPD - a far better combatant than normals. If you don't want to be
> > continiously stomped upon in such a setting, 18 DEX 4 SPD is about
> > rock-bottom minimum (though Bricks can get away with less so long as they
> > have monster DEF). Not to mention that by virtue of the Power Pool they're
> > using, mages are probably 'wasting' a Phase here and there in combat - or
> > he's a one trick pony (and you took a VPP to be versatile...).

> You're absolutely right. Lower DEX and SPD get stomped if the world is at
> a higher level. In my campaign, I wanted 5 to be kick-butt speed, not
> "average." 16/3.5 is average for the villain campaign, and captures the
> feel I want (i.e. security guards can't be *completely* ignored). My "big
> slow" brick range was 2-3 SPD and 10-15 DEX. I think this captures the
> feel of the comics, but such subjective fuzzy impressionist statements are
> always, well, subjective, fuzzy, and impressionist.

Though, as Tim Gilberg said;

> But the main point is that we are talking about BBB power levels,
> and the 23 DEX, 5 SPD average is the standard.

This needs to be remembered for this thread here; we're discussing
appropriate levels for the BBB (or BBB-5) standards. While I am against
the DEX & SPD wars and power escalation, for this debate, I am willing
to concede an 'average' level of 23 DEX/5 SPD or whatever it boils down
to. MY point is that WITH these levels, the 250-point level is still
perfectly serviceable for building well-rounded superheroes for
beginning players.

(J&R Prins again);

> > I think part of the problem would be resolved if more integration of skills
> > took place - someone suggested there should be a 'Scientist' skill as
> > opposed to all these SC: Blankology. If professions became synonymous with
> > knowledge, then the mage could take PS: Mage and PS: Scholar and to hell
> > with all the various little KS skills. You could always introduce a new
> > skill: Expert (area) if you wanted to simulate a specialist.

Actually, I like the distinction between KS and PS, though perhaps
with that in mind, it would make sense to make them cheaper.

> > At the same time, I'd bump the cost of a professional skill up to 3 w/ 2
> > points per +1. So you want a mage? PS: Mage and PS: Scholar. Gadgeteer: PS:
> > Scientist and PS: Inventor. Airplane Mechanic? PS: Mechanic and Expert:
> > Airplane Mechanics. And so on. Or is that too simplistic?

> No, it's an idea with some merit. In campaigns where the goal is role-play
> finding out about the combat; role-play getting to the combat; play the
> combat... this approach is superior to any I've seen. And those campaigns
> are fun, even if they get old after a while. If your campaign has a flavor
> where a session or two can go by without a combat, however, characters
> will be aching for more refined skills to distinguish themselves.

I agree. Though perhaps there should be a whole new structure to the
"flavour" or defineable skills (PS, KS, SC, even AK);

Knowledge Only; 1/1; The character has theoretical knowledge of a
subject, but not practical skill in applying it for 1 pt for an INT
roll, + 1 per 1.

Profession Only; 2/1; The character knows how to do his/her job in this
field, but does not possess any significant knowledge of the field
outside of his/her own job requirements for 2 points for an INT roll, +1
per 1.

Professional Knowledge; 3/2;The character has the best of both worlds -
has large pool of theoretical AND practical knowledge; is probably a
pioneer in his/her field. Regular skill cost at 3 for an INT roll, +1
per 2.

And perhaps with the Professional Knowledge skill, one could then
spend one point for each sub-category of specialization of that skill.
I.E., the Super Mage who has Magic Skill bought as Professional
Knowledge, can spend 4 additional points to have four seperate
specialties of Magic knowledge of application.

Obviously this would have to be in th "optional" section, so as not
to scare off the newbie player with the Complicated Math, but I will
assume that someone trying to write up a detailed SuperMage and worrying
about volumes of knowledge skills will be willing to work a little for
it.

> HERO is not "one size fits all" when it comes to power settings. Our
> mage-impaired friend is probably having trouble fitting into a "Champions"
> genre simply because the power settings and campaign flavor are different,
> and mages really do best in the more noncombat, lower power-level genres.
> I do believe Champions runs more effectively at 16/3.5 with 250 point
> characters, but everyone has his own solution to the "point crunch."

As I said, I'm looking at arguements for keeping a 250 level with the
current power level benchmarks. The problem is that people are argueing
for having lots of power AND lots of skill and knowledge. I think that
10 to 15 points for Standard Supers to spend on two or three 'colour'
skills is plenty, and 25 to 40 points in skills merits a balancing
reduction in power level, or at least limitations to said powers.
The gist being that the examples in the book (have I said this
before?) should be for beginning PLAYERS, thus _too_much_ detail in a
game setting at the onset is not, I believe a good example to suggest to
beginners. That may be one thing which turns people off of the hero
system; trying to force too much detail into a new system. I'm not
implying that some beggining players or GMs are not ready for
intricately structured worlds and characters, but if they are, then it
is up to _them_ to go beyond the basic examples, and that's how it
should be; in fact, I believe that's what most people should expect,
that examples will always be simpler than the eventual 'comfort zone'
for players once they gain experience.


---
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 98 22:57:20
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:45:26 -0800, Filksinger wrote:

>On Saturday, February 14, 1998 10:38 AM, "qts" wrote:
>
>
>>On Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:15:59 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> >It may or may not, depending on the special effects of the
>Deflection.
>>>>
>>>> Can you elaborate? About the only example of such that comes to
>mind is
>>>> a mental attack being Deflected! Even with arrow cutting, the
>arrows go
>>>> somewhere.
>>>
>>> Try a Comic Book example: Cyclops can shoot down incomming
>>>attacks with his Eye Beams. They don't go anyware, they just
>>>disintigrate.
>>
>>That's not MD, that's a RKA.
>
>
>No, that's a SFX for Missile Deflection. Consider that you can use it
>to stop arrows, thrown knives, possibly (depending upon SFX and what
>you pay for) EB and bullets. None of these are normally stopable via
>RKA. The fact that you could shoot it down in theory doesn't make it
>RKA. Using that reasoning, a Missile Deflection with the SFX of "Block
>the attack with hands" would just be a Strike, and Damage Shield would
>stop any attack which consisted of a missile that would be destroyed
>by the Damage Shield ("My 8d6 EB, Damage Shield stopped your arrows,
>because it destroyed them!"). If this occurs, it is Missile
>Deflection.

I don't read comics that much - not at all now - so forgive me if I
err, but I recall an episode where Cyclops shot down a cruise(?)
missile, and that was what I was basing it on. If you're generalising
it, then I still say that MD is not the way - if the attack goes
nowhere, then you're Dispelling it.

>>>Also, for example, a character that catches items shot at him/her.
>>
>>I include this in arrow cutting - the objects caught go somewhere,
>even
>>if it is 'on the ground'.
>
>
>Yes, but there is a significant difference between "arrows fly off in
>all directions" and "arrows are caught and dropped to the ground".

Not really - the arrows are there for someone to tread on them.

>>>Or someone who is actually hit by them, but isn't at all affected.
>>
>>That's Damage Reduction oa a SFX on Armour.
>
>
>Can be, but doesn't have to be.
>
>Additionally, you could have a character who performs Missile
>Deflection with the SFX "Attack is teleported into another dimension",
>or "Attack is disintegrated". The first sends it _somewhere_, but it
>hardly counts if you deflect it properly.

A good GM will bring in the residents of that dimension...

> The second is viable, and is
>not a RKA. Otherwise, I would be immune to any EB or RKA that had a
>SFX of "a missile that is destroyed by passing through this Damage
>Shield, AE attack, Explosion, etc.", so long as I properly applied the
>destructive power.

Then go for Dispel
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Templates - Background Plug-Ins
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 16:27:38 -0800
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

I've completed my article on skill packages, at
http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1905/haym16.html. There are 66
packages at 5, 15, and 25 points each, representing fair, good, and
great skill levels.

Actor
Salesman
Schoolteacher
Explorer
Politician
Archaeologist
Artist
Athlete
Gymnast
Martial Artist
Programmer
Linguist
Detective
Scientist
Mercenary
Urban Commando
Kid
Sporting Goods Store Manager
Starship Engineer
Security Guy
Psychologist
Businessman
Paramedic
Locksmith
Standup Comedian
Professional Wrestler
Paranormal Investigator
Doctor
Codebreaker
Secretary
Newsroom Reporter
Lawyer
Investigative Reporter
Supers Reporter
Musician/Dancer
Engineering Student
Cab Driver
Jack of All Trades
Diplomat
Inventor
Pilot
Mechanic
Patrol Policeman
Undercover Policeman
Lab Tech Policeman
Con Man
Thief
Soldier
Rescue Worker
Celebrity
Spy
Gambler
Stage Magician
Smuggler
Fantasy Knight
Fantasy Thief
Fantasy Wizard
Fantasy Cleric
Fantasy Barbarian
Criminal Mastermind
Leader
Cultist
Gunslinger
Craftsman
Holy Man / Guru
Gangster


Dave Mattingly
http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1905/pwrpnt.html

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:30:46 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Finds at Winter Wars
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org


> > But seriously, the disappointments related to the Con were the
> > things you really couldn't do anything about. Champions/Hero System just
> > wasn't being run, and no Battletech appeared until quite late. (And by
> > that time I was pre-reged for the TFOS game.)
>
> Sorry - the battletech guys didn't get their act together for the pre-reg.

Ah. Well, it hasn't been the same since Herb Barents stopped
comming around. Though I heard he quit the con scene entirely.

> > Hmmm. I was wondering what that RPS system was. I was going to
> > try it, but every time it was offered I had found something I wanted to
> > play even more. Though looking back, perhaps I should have skipped on the
> > Creeks and Crawdads game.
>
> No comment.

Good GM, limited system. It's intended as a joke, more than
anything. That said, we got 2 solid hours of entertainment and some great
laughs before killing yet another water creature for food became boring.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:32:19 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Finds at Winter War...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org


> > Well, I also must say kudos to Don McKinney for Winter War. It was my first
> > one I attended and had a lot of fun. I was disappointed by the lack of
> > Champions games going on and the early crowded slugfust was too much for my
>
> Early? We moved the convention forward an hour this year (our morning
> schedule used to start at 8AM...)

Eh. That's right, isn't it. I would of rather had the extra hour
in the evening. the bars close at 1, ya know.

> In the past, our con has been AD&D weak and HERO strong. Guess everything
> changes...

Just wait 'till 5th edition!

> And, obviously, I need one of you to run a Champs game next year (or you
> could both run one each... so you could both play one)...

Oh, I've been thinking about running some sort of Hero system game
for the next one, but it depends on where I end up next year for Grad
School.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 03:14:15 EST
Subject: Discharges
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

<< If this is the US military, that would be a General Discharge for medical
reasons.>>

That all depends. It is entirely possible that she would be offered an
"early out" (as we used to call it), thus retaining an Honorable Discharge.

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: voxel@mail.theramp.net
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 02:44:15 -0600
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

At 12:54 PM 2/17/98 -0500, Scott Nolan wrote:
> Right. "Lethal". As in "having the ability to kill". The undead
> cannot be killed. They are not alive. This is not a code against
> violence, or a code against bodily damage; it is a psychological
> aversion to causing death. It does not, therefor, apply to the
> undead. In most situations.
>
> Now, if the character's unique psyche makes them include undead in the
> category of things that are alive, the disadvantage will apply. I doubt
> that most people would feel that destroying the undead was killing. I
> wouldn't, and I have a pretty hefty personal code against killing.

Are we talking mindless undead (zombies) or intelligent/sentient undead
(vampires)? I would think the latter WOULD count as killing, for quite a few
people at least.

--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams)
Date: 17 Feb 98 00:52:26 -0800
Subject: Red October Closing
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

For those who do not know, Red October, the Grand Daddy of HERO/Champions BBSes
is closing up shop, moving the stock to another site.

Bob is moving again, back to Austin and just from what it seems tired of
maintaining the site and other things. Somethings are more important than
gaming, what I am not sure (grin).

So stop by and find out the new site for the files and say hi to Bob Quinlan.
It was 9 years ago when Red OCtober opened its BBS doors, and time will not be
the same with out it.

http://www.october.com

tell them Mike sent ya.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams)
Date: 17 Feb 98 00:55:50 -0800
Subject: And away we go...
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

Good luck Mike.


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 06:09:04 -0600
From: Mike Whitney <mwhitney@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: Red October Closing
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org



Michael Adams wrote:

> Bob is moving again, back to Austin and just from what it seems tired of
> maintaining the site and other things. Somethings are more important than
> gaming, what I am not sure (grin).

Having just moved to Austin last year, I can attest it's a great city. I've met a
lot of nice Champs gamers here. (Despite the rumors, SJG has -not- gotten the city
council to ban Champs! (grin))

Maybe I'll run into Bob sometime. :)Mike

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Subject: CAK and the undead
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,5-6,10-12
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:14:25 EST
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

I was hoping to find this discussed in Horror Hero, but if it's there I
missed it ....

How do other GM's handle a character with Code Against Killing who runs
into an undead opponent? Really undead, I mean, not "zombies" who are
drugged but living humans, or similar fakes.

I'm leaning toward treating the CAK as a step or two weaker if the
character knows without a shadow of doubt that the opponent is true
undead (and bringing out the EGO Drained living humans if anyone tries to
fudge on the "shadow of doubt"), but I'm open to other suggestions.

Leah

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

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X-Sender: nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:18:32 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

At 08:14 AM 2/17/98 EST, Leah L Watts wrote:

>How do other GM's handle a character with Code Against Killing who runs
>into an undead opponent? Really undead, I mean, not "zombies" who are
>drugged but living humans, or similar fakes.
>

I would handle this very much on a per character basis. A fantasy character
might belong to a religion valuing life above all, but also holding that
the undead are the antithesis of life, and hence the greatest evil. A
Champions scientist, on the other hand, might be more likely to consider
the undead as another form of life - but not necessarily a human form.

My general view of Psychological Limitations is to consider them as more
than the few words that are on the character sheet. While I generally try
to phrase my own Psych Lims as accurately as possible, I've realized that
players don't (or can't) always capture exactly the personality they
envision for a character in a short phrase; it's better to discuss any
ambiguous Psych Lim at the time the character is created. And I like to ask
*why* a character has a code against killing; a player who answers "um,
'cause I'm a superhero" is less likely to play a CAK well than one who can
say "My character lost all his family at an early age, and will not take
the chance of ever depriving any person of a loved one" or "I believe that
superheroism would be reduced to dangerous vigilanteism if heroes were
permitted to kill; only the state has the right to decide matters of life
or death, and I will not be judge, jury, and executioner."


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: xanadu.io.com: traveler owned process doing -bs
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:26:31 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

Sorry for the late reply; I had troubles with my account...

On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Lizard wrote:

> At 01:53 PM 2/11/98 -0600, Dataweaver wrote:
> >On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Lizard wrote:
> >
> >> At 10:14 AM 2/11/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> >>
> >> > No, the argument is that is _not_ enough for beginning players.
> >> >They want to play who they see in comics, movies and cartoons and they
> >> >don't want to play no "just starting out" version. When you tell them you
> >> >can't run BatMan as is, but can run a very weak version of "beginning
> >> >batman" they'll be liable to up and run to another game system . . . or
> >> >back to Magic.
> >> >
> >> Pandering to munchkins is no way to run a system.
> >
> >Just because they happen to want to play their favorite comic book
> >character (who happens to need more than 250 points to build), that
> >doesn't mean that they are munchkins... Come on, now! Give them the
> >benefit of the doubt, at least...
>
> I'm sorry, but, to me, it would be like TSR starting every character at
> 10th level because "No one wants to play a young Conan or an inexperienced
> Elric". [1]Characters in comic books never lose -- characters in RPG often
> do, at least temporarily. Give someone enough points to play Batman, and he
> still won't be happy when his Batarang misses the Joker (who will have to
> be built on equivalently high points) because "Batman never misses!".

Umm... you completely missed my point; I was objecting to you referring to
people who like to play their favorite comic book hero who happens to be
high-powered as "munchkins" - one does _not_ imply the other. I was in no
way referring to whether or not it would be a smart move for a company to
"pander" to said group.

That said, I believe that the game needs to be able to accomodate both
groups, as with the standard system of multiple starting power levels.

> [1]I believe Dark Sun did something very like this...

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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X-Sender: shelley@mail.mactyre.net
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 07:50:22 -0800
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <scm@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: Red October Closing
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

At 12:52 AM 2/17/98 -0800, Michael Adams wrote:
>So stop by and find out the new site for the files and say hi to Bob Quinlan.
>It was 9 years ago when Red OCtober opened its BBS doors, and time will
not be
>the same with out it.

Matthew and I are now hosting Red October, and the new URL is
http://www.mactyre.net/october/. Michael is right, and this is the end of
an era, which has saddened us. We were thrilled to meet Bob and Rox
Quinlan over the weekend, and found that -- just like their online personas
-- they are two of the nicest and funniest people you could ever hope to
meet. We hope that we'll be able to repeat the experience after they move,
and we wish them all the best.

Bob is going to keep his domain active, and bquinlan@october.com will
remain his e-mail address, even after the site is down.

Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
http://www.mactyre.net

A flung stone has always been a fool's favorite means of putting himself on
a level with the wise.
-- Edgar Pangborn

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Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:02:09 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Changing the Standard in 5th (Re: Templates Discussion)
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At 09:26 AM 2/17/98 -0600, Dataweaver wrote:
>Sorry for the late reply; I had troubles with my account...
>
>On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Lizard wrote:
>

>> >Just because they happen to want to play their favorite comic book
>> >character (who happens to need more than 250 points to build), that
>> >doesn't mean that they are munchkins... Come on, now! Give them the
>> >benefit of the doubt, at least...
>>
>> I'm sorry, but, to me, it would be like TSR starting every character at
>> 10th level because "No one wants to play a young Conan or an inexperienced
>> Elric". [1]Characters in comic books never lose -- characters in RPG often
>> do, at least temporarily. Give someone enough points to play Batman, and he
>> still won't be happy when his Batarang misses the Joker (who will have to
>> be built on equivalently high points) because "Batman never misses!".
>
>Umm... you completely missed my point; I was objecting to you referring to
>people who like to play their favorite comic book hero who happens to be
>high-powered as "munchkins" - one does _not_ imply the other. I was in no
>way referring to whether or not it would be a smart move for a company to
>"pander" to said group.
>
>That said, I believe that the game needs to be able to accomodate both
>groups, as with the standard system of multiple starting power levels.
>

I agree that this is a good direction for gaming in general, though I think
the Hero System, like most RPG's, is too strongly built around escalating
experience to deal with this problem perfectly.

While later RPG's have progressed from the class-based and level-based
aspects of D&D, few have dared to break from the basic model of a game in
which you start out as a low-powered beginner, then receive increased power
as a reward for good playing. This is more a convention of RPG's than a
necessary simulation of source genres. The novice hero is one possible
character type in adventure fiction, but is far from the general case.

My ideal system would involve maintenance costs for skills, thus allowing
abilities to increase or decrease as appropriate. It would be great fun to
run an aging hero campaign, where the PC's are past their prime, but that
would take a lot of fudging in Hero and just about every other RPG I've seen.


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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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>>>>> "LLW" == Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com> writes:

LLW> How do other GM's handle a character with Code Against Killing who
LLW> runs into an undead opponent? Really undead, I mean, not "zombies"
LLW> who are drugged but living humans, or similar fakes.

Keep in mind that a character with a Code vs. Killing will actively avoid
the use of lethal force in any and all circumstances. The degree is
dependant upon the way the disadvantage is purchased.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Champions Mages
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>>>>> "JaRP" == John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> writes:

JaRP> Right. This is the range that describes the 'big slow' brick as
JaRP> having 15-18 DEX and 4 SPD - a far better combatant than normals. If
JaRP> you don't want to be continiously stomped upon in such a setting, 18
JaRP> DEX 4 SPD is about rock-bottom minimum (though Bricks can get away
JaRP> with less so long as they have monster DEF).

My take is that if the GM keeps the normals in line, a DEX 15/Speed 3 brick
is a playable character. By "keeping them in line" I mean that thugs are
going to be DEX 10-12/Speed 2, armed with small arms. A single 15/3 brick
with reasonable defenses (30rPD/30rED) and a few tricks should be able to
quickly mop up a small band of such thugs without breaking a sweat.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
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>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:

q> I don't understand: you wanted an example of breaking out of an entangle
q> without using superpowers, so I gave one. Further, as far as I can
q> tell, I have not broken the mechanic you cite. qts

100% WRONG! Read what I wrote. You have removed the "ability" for someone
outside an Entangle to use his Energy Blast to break his ally out of that
Entangle. This is a significant change in how Engangle works. Justify it.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

>> You have removed that inherent game mechanic; I want you to justify it.

TRG> Easy. Add an advantage to cover it. That's the standard way to
TRG> do something with Hero.

Advantages add abilities to powers; they do not change the fundamentals of
powers. Entangle has DEF and BODY. No Advantage can change that -- but
that is exactly what BOECV is being used to do.

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X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:54:13 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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<x-rich>>LLW> How do other GM's handle a character with Code Against Killing who

>LLW> runs into an undead opponent? Really undead, I mean, not "zombies"

>LLW> who are drugged but living humans, or similar fakes.

>

>Keep in mind that a character with a Code vs. Killing will actively avoid

>the use of lethal force in any and all circumstances. The degree is

>dependant upon the way the disadvantage is purchased.


Right. "Lethal". As in "having the ability to kill". The undead cannot be killed. They are not alive. This is not a code against violence, or a code against bodily damage; it is a psychological aversion to causing death. It does not, therefor, apply to the undead. In most situations.


Now, if the character's unique psyche makes them include undead in the category of things that are alive, the disadvantage will apply. I doubt that most people would feel that destroying the undead was killing. I wouldn't, and I have a pretty hefty personal code against killing.


If you apply the rules mechanically, without reference to the characters involved, you might as well be shooting craps or playing cards.


Scott

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to

all the force of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may

shake; the wind may blow through it; the storms may

enter, the rain may enter,--but the King of England

cannot enter; all his forces dare not cross the threshold

of the ruined tenement!

<bold> William Pitt, Earl of Chatham. 1708-1778.

</bold><italic> Speech on the Excise Bill.

</italic>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

<bold>Scott C. Nolan

nolan@erols.com</bold>

</x-rich>
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: DundraCon Report
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:09:50 -0800 (PST)
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Hello;

This years DundraCon saw a rise in Hero system games on the official
count. 20 being run as opposed to 2 Fuzion games and 1 mixed.
Saw several more in the open gaming rooms as well, and heard people
talking Hero in the halls at almost every turn.

But I didn't do any gaming this year myself. Con games tend to be
high combat low plot, and as I have my own Tuesday night game, the need for
a quick fix wasn't there this year.

Did attend a seminar on Fuzion, one on RTG's future, and one with
Steve Long about how to be a freelance writer.
The last one had the most interest, but I and everyone else there
forgot all our questions and it ended early (note to self, bring written list
next time :) ).
The Fuzion seminar talked about how they see the system. I gathered
BGC has been VERY successful; but no mention for the other lines.
They described a core of the system "Instant Fuzion" and "Regular
Fuzion". All Fuzion games share those rules in mostly identical form.
From this Plugins are added on. Plugins should not be seen as being
universally usable across games. A mecha built in Votoms and one
built in Champions might cost 10x diferent from each other, but be just as
effective. So cross usage, while possible, lacks any balance other than GM.

They mentioned a 'tools set' that is used to create all this. They have
no intentions of ever releasing that tools set however. Personally I think
that's because it's arbitrary, but that is IMHO. They're trying to compare
themselves with FUDGE. I think a more accurate comparision is GURPS. Fuzion
is a much more 'developped' game than Fudge, and like GURPS, the rules and
exact nature of the game can change from genre to genre.
Maybe it's in between the two.

The RTG seminar was similar. Mike Pondsmith mentioned being stuck
for the last three months in negotiaions for the Dragon Ball Z game, so much
so that he was unable to do any actual writing. Having done business in asia
for several years myself; I can believe this. In fact, I'm impressed that he
got anywhere at all in only three months.
RTG is also going to a part time status. They will still publish for
themselves, but will no longer be a full time company. They said to think of
it like a musical band going off for a year to do solo albumns so they can
come back together later refreshed and stronger. More on their website.
M. Pondsmith also said he is going to be lead writer on Cyberpunk V3.
Things of note are that it will present multiple netrunning systems. Everything
from a guy sitting at a terminal writing code (like real hackers) to the
"browse the web" Gibson style system they use now. Unfortunatly, they're keeping
their splatterpunk world, but updating it by around 15 years of so to the
year 203X. They will switch focus to the people in that world, rather than the
tech or locations as in past. The new focus will involve a bit of change in
style to the game, though it was unclear how so.
They will also abandon roles in favor of the more freeform character
creation system found in Fuzion (yeah I know, but compared to Interlock's
roles, it's true.).
They also covered not going to GenCon. Stating that this has been one
of the hardest years the industry has ever seen. With many retailers going out
of business (they mentioned 30% in the USA), this is not the year to be trying
to make a bigger profit off of GenCon. I agree completely.

In other news, met the artist behind the new C:NM book Bay Cities,
met several Hero Games people (they're not bad in person, Bruce Harlick seemed
the most friendly. Mark of GRG the same. Steve Peterson seems a little distant,
and Steve Long was a hard read, though I didn't see any of the demon horns I'd
been told to expect. More or less seemed 'nice'. Typical gamers really; could
probably get along with them all if I knew them.)

And the make my day moment of the con: I finally got my hands on
Justice Inc. again, after having a relative throw it out a few years back
when I was in asia. Flea Markets can be handy, though this one should have
been called a FLEE market. They put the card people alongside the RPG people,
and the hordes of kids flipping through binders of cards blocked the RPG people
from getting to the table without using football manuevers. At least I now know
what it's like to be a pirhanna rushing in with the other fish for the feast. :)

Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Stainless Steel Rat\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 18:21:39
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On 17 Feb 1998 12:43:34 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
>
>q> I don't understand: you wanted an example of breaking out of an entangle
>q> without using superpowers, so I gave one. Further, as far as I can
>q> tell, I have not broken the mechanic you cite.
>
>100% WRONG! Read what I wrote. You have removed the "ability" for someone
>outside an Entangle to use his Energy Blast to break his ally out of that
>Entangle.

So they just use Mind Attack with suitable SFX. In case you hadn't
noticed, I didn't define the effect to the nth degree, but just
provided the base.

> This is a significant change in how Engangle works. Justify it.

No it isn't. You just define a suitable alternative. Get out of the
minutiae Repeat the mantra SFX, SFX, SFX. If someone gets englobed in
ice, then Frigid's ice-based EB is NOT going to free him; applying a
flamethrower will.

qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.


qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:27:00 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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At 12:34 PM 2/17/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "LLW" == Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com> writes:
>
>LLW> How do other GM's handle a character with Code Against Killing who
>LLW> runs into an undead opponent? Really undead, I mean, not "zombies"
>LLW> who are drugged but living humans, or similar fakes.
>
>Keep in mind that a character with a Code vs. Killing will actively avoid
>the use of lethal force in any and all circumstances. The degree is
>dependant upon the way the disadvantage is purchased.
>
Well, 'lethal' has a lot of meanings. Superman wouldn't hesitate to use
'lethal force' on a tank (assuming he would not hurt the occupants) or a
steel door -- so would he do so against an unliving, but animate, corpse?

A lot of RPGs distinguish between 'aware' and 'unaware' undead. So someone
with a CAK might destroy zombies and skeletons, but be hesitant about
killing Vampires.

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X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:08:00 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

<x-rich>>> Right. "Lethal". As in "having the ability to kill". The undead

>> cannot be killed. They are not alive. This is not a code against

>> violence, or a code against bodily damage; it is a psychological

>> aversion to causing death. It does not, therefor, apply to the

>> undead. In most situations.

>>

>> Now, if the character's unique psyche makes them include undead in the

>> category of things that are alive, the disadvantage will apply. I doubt

>> that most people would feel that destroying the undead was killing. I

>> wouldn't, and I have a pretty hefty personal code against killing.

>

>Are we talking mindless undead (zombies) or intelligent/sentient undead

>(vampires)? I would think the latter WOULD count as killing, for quite a few

>people at least.


Right. My point exactly. It cannot be applied as a blanket rule, but must make reference to the people and the culture.


Scott

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to

all the force of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may

shake; the wind may blow through it; the storms may

enter, the rain may enter,--but the King of England

cannot enter; all his forces dare not cross the threshold

of the ruined tenement!

<bold> William Pitt, Earl of Chatham. 1708-1778.

</bold><italic> Speech on the Excise Bill.

</italic>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

<bold>Scott C. Nolan

nolan@erols.com</bold>

</x-rich>
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X-Sender: empulse@usa.net (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:20:57 -0800
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com>
Subject: OrcCon '98 Report
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

<x-rich><bold>OrcCon

</bold>The annual President's Day weekend gaming convention held at
Wyndham Hotel right next to the Los Angeles airport.


The first thing I should mention is that we had rather heavy rainfall
Saturday, which may have had a adverse affect on attendance. Having grown
up in the midwest, heavy rain never kept me away from a good RPG, but its
a bit different in So Cal.


<bold>RPGs

</bold> This Con really feels small now. The lists of RPGs one could sign
up for was relatively short and dominated by AD&D. There was one
Champions tournament and a Champions "Independent" game run three times
each day. So, while there were only two actual adventures run at the
convention, there were over six opportunities to play each one.

I spent a fair amount of time in the open gaming room, I saw one rather
spirited Champions game going on, which was nice to see. I came across it
a little to late to join in, maybe next year.


<bold>Dealers Room

</bold> Ouch. This was <italic>painful</italic>. There was no Hero Games
products (or Hero System related products for that matter) to be found.
There were folks selling WW, GURPS, AD&D, Palladium, and many others, but
no Hero. I dug through every pile I could in search of a Hero System rule
book or Champions book. I've recently gained two new players in my
Champions game, and both were interested in picking up a copy of the
rules.

AEG (designers of the Legend of the Five Rings card game and RPG) and
FASA made a strong showing, but they were the only two real game
companies present. The rest of the dealers seemed to be shop owners and
the like.


<bold>Flea Market

</bold> There was actually some Hero System products available here among
various used games were copies of Champions of the North, Enemies for
Hire and Eye for and Eye. What disturbed me about the Flea Market wasn't
the Magic card sellers, but the people with Con Security badges selling
bootleg copies of Babylon 5 bloopers, Rock & Rule and anime videos. I
wonder if the Stratigicon folks know what kind of image that creates?


<bold>Seminars

</bold> FASA held a few, but that was it. The AEG folks were all busy
with their card tournament, RPG games, and what was the highlight of the
convention for me, the Live Action Legend of the Five Rings game, great
fun.


<bold>In Summary

</bold> Part of the problem with seeing so few games to choose from may
be in Stratigicon's method of recruiting game masters. If you run games
at their conventions, you get into the convention for free. However, in
order to do so, you have to run 12 hours worth of games and all games are
set up to be run in four hour blocks. There doesn't seem to be an attempt
to attract GMs willing to run just one game.

Since DundraCon is the same weekend (I think), I'm not at all surprised
that the major game companies weren't present, it's just to bad that none
of them at least had some form of representation at the convention. In
the past, there was always one retailer there with a large selection of
RTG and Hero products, they were noticeably absent this year.

I skipped Stratigicon conventions for a while when Magic was really big.
The game took over all the open gaming space and the madman-like
tournament judges, with their bullhorns and belligerence were to much for
me to <italic>pay</italic> to put up with.

I wonder if the Stratigicons are still suffering from that legacy? Do
the LA area gamers know that the magic tournaments are gone? If there are
LA champions players on the list, maybe we should try organizing a few
games at the next convention so we can let the gaming community in
general know that Champions is alive and well?


-Nic

</x-rich>
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Fantasy Hero, Where to Buy it (Re: Finds at Winter Wars)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:38:46 -0800 (PST)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> > > 8) Beat up copy of Fantasy Hero -- time to start converting oodles
> > >of old AD&D modules. $10.
> >
> > I'm in the small minority of people who actually like the magic system
> > presented there. But then again, a fantasy campaign is best when it uses a
> > magic system tailored to the world in which it takes place. The given one
> > (expanded upon in both of the two Companions) is designed to be fairly
> > generic.

Gold Rush Games and Hero both still have copies of this. Saw two
copies in their box at Dundracon. I assume the box was a GRG box, as it was
on their side of the booth. But it's also listed on the hero games website.
I'm one of those who feels Hero works better for Heroic Fantasy
than it does for Super.

Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 20:37:02
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Where can I find...
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On Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:07:32 -0500 (EST), THE MAD HARLEQUIN wrote:

> Where can I find the supplements an Justice Inc., an Eye for an Eye,
>Dark Champions, as well as the Hero System Almanacs I and II? Any suggestions
>of where I could acquire this material would be greatly appreciated.

Any game store that actually carries Hero products (ie. those that don't think Hero went
out of business) has a pretty good shot at having Eye for an Eye, Dark Champions, and
the Hero System Almanacs I and II. Justice Inc. however has been out of print for so
long that your chances of finding a copy are pretty slim.


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 15:27:35 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Champions Mages
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> JaRP> Right. This is the range that describes the 'big slow' brick as
> JaRP> having 15-18 DEX and 4 SPD - a far better combatant than normals. If
> JaRP> you don't want to be continiously stomped upon in such a setting, 18
> JaRP> DEX 4 SPD is about rock-bottom minimum (though Bricks can get away
> JaRP> with less so long as they have monster DEF).
>
> My take is that if the GM keeps the normals in line, a DEX 15/Speed 3 brick
> is a playable character. By "keeping them in line" I mean that thugs are
> going to be DEX 10-12/Speed 2, armed with small arms. A single 15/3 brick
> with reasonable defenses (30rPD/30rED) and a few tricks should be able to
> quickly mop up a small band of such thugs without breaking a sweat.

Sure, but I consider DEX 14/15 and SPD 3 to be _the_ minimum, and
that mostly only for bricks and a few EBs with *high* powered attacks.
They are, at that point, a bit faster than thugs, and more combat
effective. However, agents should be a bit of a bother, though they won't
really do any damage.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 15:30:54 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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> LLW> How do other GM's handle a character with Code Against Killing who
> LLW> runs into an undead opponent? Really undead, I mean, not "zombies"
> LLW> who are drugged but living humans, or similar fakes.
>
> Keep in mind that a character with a Code vs. Killing will actively avoid
> the use of lethal force in any and all circumstances. The degree is
> dependant upon the way the disadvantage is purchased.

We are talking about defining this more exactly Rat. CAK
obviously isn't a total "no lethality" thing, else the character would
have to be vegetarian and totally against killing the smallest ant or
mosquito. Heck, actually, being strict, plant-based food is out too.

In some cases, non-humans wouldn't count. Killing a deer or Alien
or Orc or whatnot is fine. In others, humans and humanoids are out, but
dragons, etc are fine. In some cases, Undead will have to be attacked as
part of a code. These characters can still have strong codes against
killing, it's just a matter of what they won't kill.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 15:35:19 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
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> >> You have removed that inherent game mechanic; I want you to justify it.
>
> TRG> Easy. Add an advantage to cover it. That's the standard way to
> TRG> do something with Hero.
>
> Advantages add abilities to powers; they do not change the fundamentals of
> powers.

Since when. BOECV takes away the OCV vs DCV portion of an attack,
as well as taking away all defenses from PD/ED. NND removes the ability
of PD/ED to defend an attack. 0 END removes the need for a power to cost
END. AE removes the need to target an individual. Autofire removes the
need to seperately target attacks and to take time between attacks. UBO
removes the need to use the power yourself for it to be used. Need I go
on?


> Entangle has DEF and BODY. No Advantage can change that -- but
> that is exactly what BOECV is being used to do.

Sure an advantage can change that. Hero system advantages are
designed to change the powers they work with. However, it still has DEF
and BOD. It just isn't affected by the same types of powers and
abilities.

Oh, and I agree that BOECV isn't the best advantage here.
Entangle should include an advantage something close to NND to define
entangles working against other stats.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:07:32 -0500 (EST)
From: THE MAD HARLEQUIN <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Where can I find...
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Where can I find the supplements an Justice Inc., an Eye for an Eye,
Dark Champions, as well as the Hero System Almanacs I and II? Any suggestions
of where I could acquire this material would be greatly appreciated.

-Jason

BTW- Can anyone here help me with information on how to run various 'on-line'
games? (i.e. what t
ypes there are, organization, any software, etc.)

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:37:02 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Templates - Background Plug-Ins
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At 04:27 PM 2/16/98 -0800, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>I've completed my article on skill packages, at
>http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1905/haym16.html. There are 66

These look okay, but do you have them in a more compact, or at least linear,
form? I can't stand clicking to 30 different pages to look at the packages.

Joe

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

TRG> We are talking about defining this more exactly Rat. CAK
TRG> obviously isn't a total "no lethality" thing, else the character would
TRG> have to be vegetarian and totally against killing the smallest ant or
TRG> mosquito. Heck, actually, being strict, plant-based food is out too.

Like I said, it depends on how the Disadvantage is purchased.

I do not agree that the campaign world makes a significant difference. A
character with a 25-point Code vs. Killing will not knowingly and willingly
use lethal force against a living or sentient creature, be it human, orc,
dragon, deer, critter from the SF movie of your choice, pod-person,
vampire, etc. A great example of this is the Tin Woodsman from the Oz
novels (not the movie!). He would go out of his way to avoid stepping on
even ants, and was filled with remorse if he accidentally killed one.

If that seems too extreme for another character, take a smaller bonus. For
a character with a narrower view of "living thing", take the disadvantage
at the "common" level rather than "very common".

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Champions Mages
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

TRG> Sure, but I consider DEX 14/15 and SPD 3 to be _the_ minimum, and
TRG> that mostly only for bricks and a few EBs with *high* powered attacks.

I can actually see really good player handling a 13/2 brickish EB or
brickish "martial artist" character. Both will need to spend a lot of
points on non-brickish abilities, such as a framework of "stupid brick
tricks" or combat skill levels to offset Sweep maneuver penalties. For
such a character I would make an exception to the normal campaign DC limits
because otherwise he would literally be doing half (or less!) as much
damage as anyone else over the course of a combat turn.

TRG> They are, at that point, a bit faster than thugs, and more combat
TRG> effective. However, agents should be a bit of a bother, though they
TRG> won't really do any damage.

With 30rPD/30rED for defenses, thugs with handguns (~1d6RKA) are probably
going to be little more than a nuisance. Their purpose is to get in the
way so that the Villain du Jour can accomplish his nefarious deeds. A
handful with shoulder arms (~1.5-2d6RKA) are going to be just obnoxious
enough Stun-wise that they have to be dealt with quickly.

Full-fledged agents are another story. A fireteam of these guys should be
an even match with a 250-point super.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

TRG> Oh, and I agree that BOECV isn't the best advantage here.
TRG> Entangle should include an advantage something close to NND to define
TRG> entangles working against other stats.

That still does not define how to break such an Entangle.

In the loosest sense, the "defense" against Entangle is being able to do
lots of Body damage, either from within or without, overcoming its DEF and
depleting its Body. There are *lots* of ways to do Body damage: Strength,
Telekenesis, Energy Blast, Hand-to-Hand Attack, Killing Attack, Ranged
Killing Attack.

If you allow advantages to Entangle that change this, you have to start
making all kinds of exceptions and special cases, such as Mental Powers
(other than Mental Illusions) and Presence being able to do Body damage.
This strikes me as being utterly broken.

So I have to ask, what is wrong with using Mind Control w/ single command
for this category of effects? Whether it is "do nothing" or "look at me",
the effect is targeted at the victim's mind. Mind Control already has a
well-defined method of defeat. No exceptions or special cases are
necessary.

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Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:36:23 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Templates - Where do we stand?
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Due to technical difficulties, I lost all email that came in over the
weekend before getting a chance to read them... Could someone please fill
me in on the status of the templates project?

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:37:36 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Champions Mages
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>TRG> Sure, but I consider DEX 14/15 and SPD 3 to be _the_ minimum, and
>TRG> that mostly only for bricks and a few EBs with *high* powered attacks.
>
>I can actually see really good player handling a 13/2 brickish EB or
>brickish "martial artist" character.

Oh, so could I, but if you're in a 23/5 campaign, most of the time you're
sitting around waiting for everyone else to resolve their actions (well,
you're already doing that, but even moreso). While 'SPD=Fun' is not 100%
true, higher SPD characters do get to do more.

Of course there are ways around this; like Damage Shield Physical EBs
(simulating the 'counterpunch' idea) with 'OCV vs DCV required' limits on
it, but that's really not an appropriate thing for mages, and very expensive
(in active points) for any real level of effectiveness.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: dobrien@e-mail.com
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:45:23 EST
X-Sender-Info: Dennis L. O'Brien Class: Internal
Consulting Systems Engineer
VM Systems Software 15863 (510) 675-5594
Subject: Re: DunDraCon report
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IIRC, Brian Wong said that there were 20 Champions games at DunDraCon.
That's not exactly correct. There were 18 Hero System games: 12
Champions (4th ed.), 3 Fantasy Hero, one JI using 4th ed. rules, one
Space: 1889 using Hero rules (mine), and one Caribbean pirates game.
There were also two Fuzion games and one Champions/Fuzion hybrid. I
played in two of the FH games, and they were both excellent. My wife
played in the JI game and one of the FH games, and enjoyed them both.
She also played in my Space Hero: 1889 game, but I consider her comments
on that game biased. :-)

For comparison purposes, there were 34 AD&D games, 12 Call of Cthulhu
games, 13 assorted World of Darkness games, and four Cyberpunk games. No
other system, including GURPS, had more than three games. There were a
total of 150+ official games. None of the numbers above include games in
the open gaming rooms. I played a very good Dark Champions game in open
gaming, and there were also Champions and FH games in open gaming.

The "What's New at Hero Games" seminar discussed Hero System 5th Edition
and a variety of other topics. As Hero Games has said on the list, there
will be no change to the cost of Characteristics, Aid and Hand Attack
will probably have their costs raised, and there will be lots of examples
and new options for Powers. This will be strictly a rule book, the
Champions genre material will not be included. Also, the Hero Creator
template for Creation Workshop is due in April. The template itself is
done, and the programmer is working on a conversion utility for HeroMaker
character files. IMO, they're doing the right thing by waiting for the
conversion utility. I'm not sure that I'd buy Creation Workshop without
it. The Hero Creator template will be sold as an add-on to CW; you won't
be able to buy CW with Hero Creator included, without the Fuzion Creator
template.

To the OrcCon reviewer (Nic?), you were right about some of the game
companies being at DunDraCon instead of OrcCon. In particular, Hero
Games, Gold Rush Games, and Chaosium were present. I saw Mike Pondsmith,
but I didn't notice if R. Talsorian had a booth. To be honest, I don't
play any RTG games, so I tend to tune their stuff out. My wife picked up
a copy of TFOS for her daughter, so RTG games were being sold by someone.
In general, barring Origins and GenCon, game companies tend to have
booths only at local conventions in their area. There are exceptions, of
course. I think I've seen one TSR booth at a Northern California
convention (other than the two Origins here), and I've heard that Hero
Games sends people to some East Coast conventions. The other dealers at
conventions tend to be local retailers who've arranged to carry a
particular company's line, specialty dealers such as Chessex (game
accessories), and non-game products such as knives and anime videos.

Dennis

"Without lies, President Clinton would me a mime." -- Will Durst

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From: "Ron Abitz" <ronald@centraltx.net>
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged'advantage!)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:48:31 -0600
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----------
> From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>

> >
> >TRG> Though those exceptions and special cases could, and in many
> >TRG> cases should, be added with a limitation. Also, this doesn't cover
> >TRG> non-Ego (or CON) based entangles.
> >
> >"CON-based entangles"? This is where I mention the "Based on CON"
> >limitation for Mental Powers, right? :)
>
> So do we then have Entangle, BOECV, Based on CON?
> I have a headache. ;-]
> ---
>
What type of entagement whould be based on con? SFX?

Ron Abitz

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From: "Ron Abitz" <ronald@centraltx.net>
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:56:13 -0600
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----------
> > q> No it isn't. You just define a suitable alternative.
> >
> > Then please do so. You are using the advantage; what are the
> > alternatives?
>
> Actually, that's what I've been proposing, Rat.
>
> > q> Get out of the minutiae Repeat the mantra SFX, SFX, SFX. If someone
gets
> > q> englobed in ice, then Frigid's ice-based EB is NOT going to free
him;
> >
> > WRONG! It will do Body damage to the entangle, just as a sledge hammer
> > with a steel head will do damage to an entangle defined as a steel
cage.
>
>
> Wrong. At least in my campaign. Your ice attack won't do crap.
> But Mr. Flameguy (TM)'s heat blast will do a lot more damage to the
> entangle than normal. Or did you forget about the "minor advantages and
> limitations for SFX" clause in the BBB?
>
It would depend on the SFX of the "ice" attack. Is it balls/pieces of ice
impacting at high speed? Then Yes it would. Does it do damage by freezing
the target? Then no.

Ron Abitz

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X-Sender: h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:30:53 +1100
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 12:34 PM 2/17/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "LLW" == Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com> writes:
>
>LLW> How do other GM's handle a character with Code Against Killing who
>LLW> runs into an undead opponent? Really undead, I mean, not "zombies"
>LLW> who are drugged but living humans, or similar fakes.
>
>Keep in mind that a character with a Code vs. Killing will actively avoid
>the use of lethal force in any and all circumstances. The degree is
>dependant upon the way the disadvantage is purchased.
>
I think that depends on _why_ they have a code vs killing. My character
has a code vs killing because she's a Christian and considers it murder,
(actually I'm really looking forwards to when someone she captures in
sentenced to the death penalty, it's going to be fun to see how she reacts)
so if she was confronting a demon I could see her trying to kill it with no
problems, an undead similarly (although it'd take a _lot_ of convincing for
her to believe that it's an actual undead creature).

If you play a character with code versus killing do they have to be
careful not to kill a dog? how about bacteria?

****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
h_laws@tassie.net.au

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Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:08:01 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: Special effects reduction
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On Fri, 13 Feb 1998, qts wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Feb 1998 17:54:54 -0600 (CST), Dataweaver wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> >
> >> Although I think 100% DR is a dumb idea in Hero, you are forgetting the DR
> >> is Persistent and Desolid (whatever you said above) is not. Add a +1 for
> >> 0 END, Persistent and you get 120.
> >
> >Well, I could get technical and say that it also counters both Physical
> >and Energy attacks, while Damage Reduction counters one or the other (so
> >240 points for 100% Damage Reduction against both), butwe're already
> >heavily into the mechanics as is, so I won't. =)
> >
> >I'll just mention that 240 points is a substantial chunk of nearly any
> >character, and - while I would never use 100% Damage Reduction in any of
> >my games - it doesn't seem to be an unreasonable price for the effects.
>
> What if you redefined it as Damage Reduction vs SFX?

That would be a -1/2L: "Conditional Power: Only vs a certain SFX". 100%
Damage resistance should, IMHO, still be as all-encompassing as 75% Damage
Reduction, or it should be called something else and treated as a
completely different power. My point is that 120 points for total
immunity to every physical attack in the game seems to be a fair price to
me, and I would not object to it being added to H5. For those who like to
have it restricted to one special effect, either slap on a -1/2L (if
you're a stickler for the rules) or call it a house rule for your games
(if you're more flexible). And remember the rule-of-thumb "Just because
you payed for it, doesn't mean that it will always work". If a GM wants
to make an exception to a rule on the fly, the players have no right to
disagree.

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:10:07 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Where can I find...
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> Any game store that actually carries Hero products (ie. those that don't think Hero went
> out of business) has a pretty good shot at having Eye for an Eye, Dark Champions, and
> the Hero System Almanacs I and II. Justice Inc. however has been out of print for so
> long that your chances of finding a copy are pretty slim.

I actually saw JI at WinterWars, and at list price to boot.
Didn't grab it because it, IMHO, doesn't contain enough genre and campaign
information to make it worthwhile. Much of the book is rules that were
repeats of 3rd edition Champs and reprinted in 4th edition champs.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 22:09:30 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
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> TRG> Oh, and I agree that BOECV isn't the best advantage here.
> TRG> Entangle should include an advantage something close to NND to define
> TRG> entangles working against other stats.
>
> That still does not define how to break such an Entangle.

No, that part of the advantage still needs to be defined. I said
_like_ NND, not _exactly_ NND. Like NND, it will remove a normal method
from the power and replace it with something else.

> In the loosest sense, the "defense" against Entangle is being able to do
> lots of Body damage, either from within or without, overcoming its DEF and
> depleting its Body. There are *lots* of ways to do Body damage: Strength,
> Telekenesis, Energy Blast, Hand-to-Hand Attack, Killing Attack, Ranged
> Killing Attack.

However, it shouldn't be that huge of a deal to remove either the
ability to damage the entangle from one of either within or without. IE,
have an entangle that only others can help one get out of or one that
others cannot help one get out of. As this could be unbalancing, costs
would have to be well thought-out. I'd also probably require some other
sort of way of breaking the entangle, to be decided upon purchase of the
power.

> If you allow advantages to Entangle that change this, you have to start
> making all kinds of exceptions and special cases, such as Mental Powers
> (other than Mental Illusions) and Presence being able to do Body damage.
> This strikes me as being utterly broken.

No more so than allowing various SFX to act as defenses for
purposes of NND, UAO, etc. Or allowing Transform to be counteracted by
something defined at purchase. This advantage would work in much the same
way. Perhaps a couple of ways could be defined in advance. One would be
doing damage with some other stat besides STR. (DEX, INT, EGO, PRE, CON,
etc.)

> So I have to ask, what is wrong with using Mind Control w/ single command
> for this category of effects? Whether it is "do nothing" or "look at me",
> the effect is targeted at the victim's mind. Mind Control already has a
> well-defined method of defeat. No exceptions or special cases are
> necessary.

Though those exceptions and special cases could, and in many
cases should, be added with a limitation. Also, this doesn't cover
non-Ego (or CON) based entangles.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Templates - Where do we stand?
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:51:35 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> Due to technical difficulties, I lost all email that came in over the
> weekend before getting a chance to read them... Could someone please fill
> me in on the status of the templates project?

No new emails on it over the weekend, save for one on the backgrounds
that I wasn't able to read yet.

On the bases and plugins, we're still in limbo for where to set them
at.
We need a point level that lets us build believable bases, yet leaves
enough for the plugins.

Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: DunDraCon report
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:10:31 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> IIRC, Brian Wong said that there were 20 Champions games at DunDraCon.
> That's not exactly correct. There were 18 Hero System games: 12

Same thing. :) My nummbers were from counting in the catalog a few
days back, and memory of such.

> total of 150+ official games. None of the numbers above include games in
> the open gaming rooms. I played a very good Dark Champions game in open
> gaming, and there were also Champions and FH games in open gaming.
>
I've never figured out how to find out when a game in the open gaming
rooms is starting up and where to go to join it. Unless you just have
to sit around and wait until a hapless GM stumbles in. :)

> The "What's New at Hero Games" seminar discussed Hero System 5th Edition
> and a variety of other topics. As Hero Games has said on the list, there
> will be no change to the cost of Characteristics, Aid and Hand Attack
> will probably have their costs raised, and there will be lots of examples

That's a change. They used to say HA would be tossed out all together.
I missed this seminar.

> it. The Hero Creator template will be sold as an add-on to CW; you won't
> be able to buy CW with Hero Creator included, without the Fuzion Creator
> template.
>
Unfortunatly. But then, I guess I do own a few Fuzion games, not that
I can yet stand to use them.

> play any RTG games, so I tend to tune their stuff out. My wife picked up
> a copy of TFOS for her daughter, so RTG games were being sold by someone.

It was at the Hero/GRG booth. I considered buying it, but decided
against it. I've never been good at direct comedy.

> convention (other than the two Origins here), and I've heard that Hero
> Games sends people to some East Coast conventions. The other dealers at

Steve Long for one lives on the East Coast. I was suprised to see
him at DundraCon. But then I kept overhearing him and the Hero guys
talking about getting together to discuss plans for 5th edition; so
that and the panels he was on must have brought him out.

> conventions tend to be local retailers who've arranged to carry a
> particular company's line, specialty dealers such as Chessex (game
> accessories), and non-game products such as knives and anime videos.

Chessex is always nice to see. I always grab a few dice and oddball
games from them. I was glad to see they had Albedo, and even gladder to see
how fast it was going (at $2, you'd be a fool not to buy it :) ).

I have no idea what the knife people were doing there, save for the
SCA crowd I guess. Kept meaning to find a good Tshirt at the anime booth, but
forgot to in the end.

Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:59:54 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: DunDraCon report
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> That's a change. They used to say HA would be tossed out all together.
> I missed this seminar.

Well, they had said that HA, in its present state, would be gone.
They didn't say it wouldn't be replaced.

> > it. The Hero Creator template will be sold as an add-on to CW; you won't
> > be able to buy CW with Hero Creator included, without the Fuzion Creator
> > template.
> >
> Unfortunatly. But then, I guess I do own a few Fuzion games, not that
> I can yet stand to use them.

Ah well, I'll probably still go for the programs, from what I saw
of the Fuzion package at GenCon. It's really a nice-looking system.

> > play any RTG games, so I tend to tune their stuff out. My wife picked up
> > a copy of TFOS for her daughter, so RTG games were being sold by someone.
>
> It was at the Hero/GRG booth. I considered buying it, but decided
> against it. I've never been good at direct comedy.

I guess I'll gloat again at having gotten myself a copy for
playing in (only my second ever) TFOS game. Of course, I've been trying
to find a copy of that game for about three years, so I figure I've
suffered enough. I can't think of much as hard to get as that game was in
recent times.

Heck. Maybe Creation Workshop will support TFOS characters.

> Chessex is always nice to see. I always grab a few dice and oddball
> games from them. I was glad to see they had Albedo, and even gladder to see
> how fast it was going (at $2, you'd be a fool not to buy it :) ).


Albedo? What's that?


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:32:30 -0700
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> > LLW> How do other GM's handle a character with Code Against Killing who
> > LLW> runs into an undead opponent? Really undead, I mean, not "zombies"
> > LLW> who are drugged but living humans, or similar fakes.
> >
> > Keep in mind that a character with a Code vs. Killing will actively avoid
> > the use of lethal force in any and all circumstances. The degree is
> > dependant upon the way the disadvantage is purchased.
>
> We are talking about defining this more exactly Rat. CAK
> obviously isn't a total "no lethality" thing, else the character would
> have to be vegetarian and totally against killing the smallest ant or
> mosquito. Heck, actually, being strict, plant-based food is out too.
>
> In some cases, non-humans wouldn't count. Killing a deer or Alien
> or Orc or whatnot is fine. In others, humans and humanoids are out, but
> dragons, etc are fine. In some cases, Undead will have to be attacked as
> part of a code. These characters can still have strong codes against
> killing, it's just a matter of what they won't kill.
>
> -Tim Gilberg

As an example of how setting and background matter; a character I once
played had a 20 pointer. He was a very mysitc martial artist and his
worldview was a reincarnation sorta-Buddist; however the world was
basically Christian. He wouldn't kill because, while he got
reincarnated, other people wouldn't get a second shot at it, and to kill
them would be depriving them of thier chance for salvation. Undead, even
the Self aware kind, would not kick in his code vs killing. He was one
of those that wouldn't hurt a deer or plants (he found away for life
support need not eat), but undead, demons and such things with no
savable soul or spirit wasn't considered.
--

Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages,
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and
goes through their pockets. -- Eddy Peters

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:16:12 -0800
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On Tuesday, February 17, 1998 9:44 AM, qts wrote:


>On Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:45:26 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>
>>On Saturday, February 14, 1998 10:38 AM, "qts" wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:15:59 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>>>
<snip>
>>>> Try a Comic Book example: Cyclops can shoot down incomming
>>>>attacks with his Eye Beams. They don't go anyware, they just
>>>>disintigrate.
>>>
>>>That's not MD, that's a RKA.
>>
>>
>>No, that's a SFX for Missile Deflection. Consider that you can use
it
>>to stop arrows, thrown knives, possibly (depending upon SFX and what
>>you pay for) EB and bullets. None of these are normally stopable via
>>RKA. The fact that you could shoot it down in theory doesn't make it
>>RKA. Using that reasoning, a Missile Deflection with the SFX of
"Block
>>the attack with hands" would just be a Strike, and Damage Shield
would
>>stop any attack which consisted of a missile that would be destroyed
>>by the Damage Shield ("My 8d6 EB, Damage Shield stopped your arrows,
>>because it destroyed them!"). If this occurs, it is Missile
>>Deflection.
>
>I don't read comics that much - not at all now - so forgive me if I
>err, but I recall an episode where Cyclops shot down a cruise(?)
>missile, and that was what I was basing it on. If you're generalising
>it, then I still say that MD is not the way - if the attack goes
>nowhere, then you're Dispelling it.


Only if you require that attacks stopped by Missile Deflection have to
go somewhere. If you don't, then Missile Deflection works just fine.
Keep in mind that a Missile Deflection in a crowded place could be a
horrible thing, as innocent bystanders get mowed down by attacks you
deflected.

>>>>Also, for example, a character that catches items shot at him/her.
>>>
>>>I include this in arrow cutting - the objects caught go somewhere,
>>even
>>>if it is 'on the ground'.
>>
>>
>>Yes, but there is a significant difference between "arrows fly off
in
>>all directions" and "arrows are caught and dropped to the ground".
>
>Not really - the arrows are there for someone to tread on them.


Which is a _very_ significant difference. I would much rather have the
arrows on the ground than flying through the air; they are _much_ less
dangerous.

Additionally, your argument concerning the hazards of arrows on the
ground only applies to sharp or otherwise dangerous objects. The
difference between bullets which fly off in odd directions and ones
which fall to the ground is _enormous_. The dropped to the ground
bullets are _much_ safer.

>>>>Or someone who is actually hit by them, but isn't at all affected.
>>>
>>>That's Damage Reduction oa a SFX on Armour.
>>
>>
>>Can be, but doesn't have to be.
>>
>>Additionally, you could have a character who performs Missile
>>Deflection with the SFX "Attack is teleported into another
dimension",
>>or "Attack is disintegrated". The first sends it _somewhere_, but it
>>hardly counts if you deflect it properly.
>
>A good GM will bring in the residents of that dimension...


Not necessarily. I very well might, but any number of concepts I might
allow would bypass that option. It could be a pocket dimension created
for each attack individually. It could go directly into deep space, or
a one-way gate could lead to the surface of a star. It could be a
dimension carefully selected in advance as completely empty by a
competent dimension traveller. It could even be a dimension carefully
selected for each attack, so that bullets go to a universe where
everyone is ameboid and likes to eat lead and other metals, while
lasers are transfered to light-based beings who consider coherent
light "candy".

>> The second is viable, and is
>>not a RKA. Otherwise, I would be immune to any EB or RKA that had a
>>SFX of "a missile that is destroyed by passing through this Damage
>>Shield, AE attack, Explosion, etc.", so long as I properly applied
the
>>destructive power.
>
>Then go for Dispel


Why? I don't see why Dispel is necessarily superior. In fact, for some
of these SFX, it is enormously _inferior_.

Let us assume a campaign with a 50 Active Point limit on attacks.
Further, we will assume that the GM guarantees that no attack will
_ever_ be more than 50 Active Points at any time.

Defensive Dimensional Gates (as opposed to Defensive Bill Gates, which
occurs during judicial probes.)

21 pts. Dispel (non-BBB often-used option from many supplements,
allowing 3 pts. rather than 1d6), Any powers with SFX which can be
Missile Deflected (+2), 0 END (+1/2) only to stop incoming attacks
(-1/2), Requires Skill Roll (-1/2), No Range (-1/2); Missile
Deflection skill (based upon DEX) 3. Active Points: 411, 166 Real
Points .

This assumes a campaign with an absolute cap on Ranged attacks. An
armor-piercing sabot round from a main battle tank would be forbidden.
Additionally, it cannot be aborted to.

The equivalent Missile Deflection costs 30 pts (All Ranged Attacks,
Attacks vs others), with maybe 10-20 extra points, depending upon
campaign, to make the attack roll of the Missile Deflection equivalent
to the above skill roll. (The attack roll is made lower by the
opponent's OCV, but made higher, typically, because 11+DCV is higher
than the skill roll.) Are you really going to more than triple the
cost of my Missile Deflection, just because the attacks disappear?

Additionally, your entire argument is based upon the assumption that
the incoming attack can be deflected somewhere. Cap's shield bounces
some things, but many energy attacks are absorbed. A laser should not
bounce, for example. Some other Missile Deflections should be even
less capable of deflecting incoming attacks. Many energy attacks in
comics are rarely or never bounced.

Filksinger

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:18:16 -0800
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On Tuesday, February 17, 1998 9:56 AM, Lizard wrote:


<snip>
>
>A lot of RPGs distinguish between 'aware' and 'unaware' undead. So
someone
>with a CAK might destroy zombies and skeletons, but be hesitant about
>killing Vampires.

I do recall that Captain America, who most people consider to have
CAK, decapitated the vampire Captain Blood. Apparently a difference of
opinion there as to who was alive.

Filksinger

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 03:35:58 EST
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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In a message dated 98-02-17 17:52:42 EST, you write:

> TRG> We are talking about defining this more exactly Rat. CAK
> TRG> obviously isn't a total "no lethality" thing, else the character would
> TRG> have to be vegetarian and totally against killing the smallest ant or
> TRG> mosquito. Heck, actually, being strict, plant-based food is out too.
>
> Like I said, it depends on how the Disadvantage is purchased.
>
> I do not agree that the campaign world makes a significant difference. A
> character with a 25-point Code vs. Killing will not knowingly and willingly
> use lethal force against a living or sentient creature, be it human, orc,
> dragon, deer, critter from the SF movie of your choice, pod-person,
> vampire, etc. A great example of this is the Tin Woodsman from the Oz
> novels (not the movie!). He would go out of his way to avoid stepping on
> even ants, and was filled with remorse if he accidentally killed one.
>
> If that seems too extreme for another character, take a smaller bonus. For
> a character with a narrower view of "living thing", take the disadvantage
> at the "common" level rather than "very common".

This is entirely your opinion, based upon how you're defining CAK from your
perspective... it can't be applied to CAK for others. If this is how you wish
to define it for your character, that's great, but it's not by any means a
standard for CAK, since there's *not* a standard for CAK. Taking this, or any
Psych Lim Disad, means the player defines what it means to *his/her*
character, not as some arbitrarily assumed definition. Then the GM and the
player decide how often that particular event(s) will come up, and at what
level the character embraces it, and comes up with a point total.
To say that CAK applies to all life, or to just some life, is an assumption at
best. It's going to be different for each character.
The campaign world would make a difference in deciding how often the situation
will come up, which would then help in defining whether it's Uncommon, Common,
or Very Common.

'Lynx

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 04:33:30 EST
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero, Where to Buy it (Re: Finds at Winter Wars)
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<< Gold Rush Games and Hero both still have copies of this. Saw two copies in
their box at Dundracon. I assume the box was a GRG box, as it was on their
side of the booth. >>

We have less than 4 dozen copies of Fantasy Hero, IIRC. We brought 6 copies
to DunDraCon and they sold out there. If you want to buy a new copy of the
current Fantasy Hero book, you better do it quick. Otherwise start scouring
the flea markets at various cons...

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 04:33:37 EST
Subject: Re: DunDraCon report
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<< There were also two Fuzion games and one Champions/Fuzion hybrid. >>

Does that include our Friday night Usagi Yojimbo RPG demo?

Mark @ GRG

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Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 06:16:05 -0600
From: Mike Whitney <mwhitney@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: DunDraCon report
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Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

> Ah well, I'll probably still go for the programs, from what I saw
> of the Fuzion package at GenCon. It's really a nice-looking system.

I bought Creation Workshop while at GenCon, based on the promise from the Hero
guys there that it -would- shortly support Champs 4th Ed. characters as well.
It's got a GREAT interface...MUCH nicer than Heromaker. Unfortunately, it's been
seven months now, and it's still useless to me, because it still doesn't support
Champs. :/ $35 bucks I could have spent on something else.

Mike

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X-Sender: mlknight@pop.mindspring.com
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 07:28:49 -0500
From: Michelle Knight <mlknight@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: DunDraCon report
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 09:10 PM 2/17/98 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:

> Steve Long for one lives on the East Coast. I was suprised to see
> him at DundraCon. But then I kept overhearing him and the Hero guys
> talking about getting together to discuss plans for 5th edition; so
> that and the panels he was on must have brought him out.


No, that didn't do it. He goes to DunDraCon every year. It's a chance
for him to
get together with both the Hero and GRG guys to discuss projects and the
like.
Also, most if the core Hero crowd attends so it's a chance to see and game
with friends as well. It's sort of a tradition.


Michelle



====================================================
Michelle Knight Primary: mlknight@mindspring.com
Gold Rush Games Backup: MLKnight01@aol.com
Winston-Salem, NC ICQ: 2083514/ A.I.M. Mystic302

---------------- Freelance Editing/Layout & Design -----------------
====================================================

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Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-5,7,9-13,15-17,28-29,31-33
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:06:11 EST
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>>> Right. "Lethal". As in "having the ability to kill". The undead
>>> cannot be killed. They are not alive. This is not a code against
>>> violence, or a code against bodily damage; it is a psychological
>>> aversion to causing death. It does not, therefor, apply to the
>>> undead. In most situations.

>>> Now, if the character's unique psyche makes them include undead in
the
>>> category of things that are alive, the disadvantage will apply. I
doubt
>>> that most people would feel that destroying the undead was killing.
>>> I wouldn't, and I have a pretty hefty personal code against killing.

>>Are we talking mindless undead (zombies) or intelligent/sentient undead
>>(vampires)? I would think the latter WOULD count as killing, for quite
a few
>>people at least.

One of the things that got me thinking about this was digging through my
old comics and finding the two-part Captain America story where Baron
Blood is finally destroyed. Cap _knows_ Blood is a true vampire, not
just someone with porphyria (sp?) and a really bad overbite. He also
knows that the only way he has of stopping Blood is to destroy him
(Blood), and that if Blood gets away Cap and his friends will be killed
at best, turned into vampires at worst. In this situation, Cap is able
to override his 20 point CAK and cut off Blood's head. It takes about
three frames for him to make his EGO roll, and he's emotionally wiped
afterward, but not as severely as a 20 pointer would normally leave
someone.

(Of course, this might have been a case of dueling Psych Lims -- Cap's
got a pretty strong "Loyal to Friends".)

Leah

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Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:06:11 EST
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> We are talking about defining this more exactly Rat. CAK
>obviously isn't a total "no lethality" thing, else the character would
>have to be vegetarian and totally against killing the smallest ant or
>mosquito. Heck, actually, being strict, plant-based food is out too.

Dark Champions breaks CAK down into 20 point, 15 point, 10 point, and 5
point levels. Makes sense to me, since not everyone will be equally
committed to an ideal (in this case, not killing).

Leah

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Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 05:48:12 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: And away we go...
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At 07:15 AM 2/16/1998 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>Just in case anyone is interested,
>
>my first draft of Kazei Five, the anime-cyberpunk worldbook, went into to
>Hero this time a week ago.
>
>Hopefully, it will be out by the end of the year.

Hopefully is right, but I don't think that's going to be too difficult
of a call considering you're both author and artist. (It's much easier to
get something out quickly that way, since you can have a lot of the art
already done by the time even the First Draft is ready.)
Personally, I'm looking forward to grabbing it. :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 05:57:04 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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At 03:30 PM 2/17/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> LLW> How do other GM's handle a character with Code Against Killing who
>> LLW> runs into an undead opponent? Really undead, I mean, not "zombies"
>> LLW> who are drugged but living humans, or similar fakes.
[bits snipped]
> In some cases, non-humans wouldn't count. Killing a deer or Alien
>or Orc or whatnot is fine. In others, humans and humanoids are out, but
>dragons, etc are fine. In some cases, Undead will have to be attacked as
>part of a code. These characters can still have strong codes against
>killing, it's just a matter of what they won't kill.

In large part, it depends on the culture of the campaign. Killing any
Orc on sight might be perfectly OK in your fantasy world, but in mine it
would be considered an act of attempted genocide which would trigger an
often-heated public debate. In someone else's world the character involved
in this would be considered a racially-motivated serial killer.
To look at another example closer to the original question, take Buffy
the Vampire Slayer. I don't think anyone would expect her to take the life
of a normal human; in that sense she has a classic CAK, despite the fact
that her very job is to kill vampires. They're not considered to be alive,
in her milieu. But things might be a tad different if the vampires got
together, formed an Undead Civil Rights Alliance, and started picketing
Sunnyvale High School (during evening hours, of course).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 05:59:59 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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At 12:34 PM 2/17/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "LLW" == Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com> writes:
>
>LLW> How do other GM's handle a character with Code Against Killing who
>LLW> runs into an undead opponent? Really undead, I mean, not "zombies"
>LLW> who are drugged but living humans, or similar fakes.
>
>Keep in mind that a character with a Code vs. Killing will actively avoid
>the use of lethal force in any and all circumstances. The degree is
>dependant upon the way the disadvantage is purchased.

As several folks have pointed out, it's also dependent on the culture
and the intended target.
Would a character with even a 25-point CAK have trouble using his 5d6
Killing Attack against a chair? Obviously not.
Would he have trouble using it against a mindless, undead zombie? I
doubt it, but cultural standards do vary.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: DunDraCon report
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 06:17:51 -0800 (PST)
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> > Chessex is always nice to see. I always grab a few dice and oddball
> > games from them. I was glad to see they had Albedo, and even gladder to see
> > how fast it was going (at $2, you'd be a fool not to buy it :) ).
>
>
> Albedo? What's that?

A hard-sci-fi game based on a comic book by the same name.
The setting is a potential future minus humanity. The 'species' of the day
are genetic contructs based on human genetics experiments at making
'intelligent animals'. So it's a 'furry' game done seriously. It's highly
political and sociological. Low on action. The setting is designed to have a
realistic appearance. Very good comic, very good game.

Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

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Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 06:19:15 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: DunDraCon report
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At 06:16 AM 2/18/1998 -0600, Mike Whitney wrote:
>Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> Ah well, I'll probably still go for the programs, from what I saw
>> of the Fuzion package at GenCon. It's really a nice-looking system.
>
>I bought Creation Workshop while at GenCon, based on the promise from the
Hero
>guys there that it -would- shortly support Champs 4th Ed. characters as well.
>It's got a GREAT interface...MUCH nicer than Heromaker. Unfortunately,
it's been
>seven months now, and it's still useless to me, because it still doesn't
support
>Champs. :/ $35 bucks I could have spent on something else.

This, along with general shortness of funds, is the reason I'm waiting
until Hero Creator is available before I pick up Creation Workshop. I find
it frustrating that I'll have to buy CW and HC separately, though I
understand why it is (if everything is going to be convertable to Fuzion,
it's really the easiest way to go).
However, that's th only bad thing I've heard about CW so far. I've been
doing a lot lately on my VOICE update, but I'm going to wait on the state
until I get CW and HC (and I might even wait until Hero5 is out).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: DunDraCon report
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 06:24:56 -0800 (PST)
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>
> << There were also two Fuzion games and one Champions/Fuzion hybrid. >>
>
> Does that include our Friday night Usagi Yojimbo RPG demo?
>
> Mark @ GRG
>
I don't think I included that in my count. That's likely one of the
few things I wish I hadn't missed by not going Friday. And possibly
the only Fuzion game I can put up with at this point. I rather liked it.

Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

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Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 06:25:43 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Red October Closing
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At 06:09 AM 2/17/1998 -0600, Mike Whitney wrote:
>
>
>Michael Adams wrote:
>
>> Bob is moving again, back to Austin and just from what it seems tired of
>> maintaining the site and other things. Somethings are more important than
>> gaming, what I am not sure (grin).
>
>Having just moved to Austin last year, I can attest it's a great city.
I've met a
>lot of nice Champs gamers here. (Despite the rumors, SJG has -not- gotten
the city
>council to ban Champs! (grin))

Hm. Maybe it's time for CLOWN to come out with a Second Edition of
GURPS Steve Jackson. ;-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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From: SteveL1979@aol.com
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:06:11 EST
Subject: Re: DunDraCon report
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In a message dated 98-02-18 00:15:37 EST, rook@shell.infinex.com writes:

<< Steve Long for one lives on the East Coast. I was suprised to see
him at DundraCon. But then I kept overhearing him and the Hero guys
talking about getting together to discuss plans for 5th edition; so
that and the panels he was on must have brought him out. >>

As a matter of fact, I go every year, and have for, oh, the past 4-5 years
or so. It's a great little con and I always have fun. (This year I just went
out a little earlier than normal for the 5th Ed. meetings.)

Steve Long

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Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:41:07 -0600
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Subject: Hero Creator for Creator Workshop
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Did the Hero boys mention when this might be available? I'm also waiting to buy CW until the HC module is available.

Uncommon Solutions...when you need a better way!
http://www.uncommonsolutions.com

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Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:43:57 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: DunDraCon report
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> I don't think I included that in my count. That's likely one of the
>few things I wish I hadn't missed by not going Friday. And possibly
>the only Fuzion game I can put up with at this point. I rather liked it.

Indeed. The 'Instant Fuzion' is far enough removed from regular Fuzion that
I don't sit there thinking 'HERO 4th is so much better than this'. IOW, it
has enough simplification to justify not using HERO 4th. I don't know why
it's called Fuzion at all, really...

BTW, why didn't we get stats for Jei? And will we ever get more animal types?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:00:57 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, David Fair wrote:

> On 2/18/98 8:59 AM Bob Greenwade (bob.greenwade@klock.com) Said:
>
> > As several folks have pointed out, it's also dependent on the culture
> >and the intended target.
> > Would a character with even a 25-point CAK have trouble using his 5d6
> >Killing Attack against a chair? Obviously not.
> > Would he have trouble using it against a mindless, undead zombie? I
> >doubt it, but cultural standards do vary.
>
>
> I dunno, If I were the GM, I doubt I would even _allow_ a character with
> a 25 pt CAK to ever use a 5d6 KA, no matter what the target, unless
> another 25-pt Psych Lim were involved.
>
> "I cannot use this power that has been given me, for it is so deadly that
> many people could possibly be destroyed."

Well, he doesn't have to use the full 5d6 all the time. Superman, for
example, constantly used far less than his normal strength in fights--when
fighting someone on his level, he had to consciously think to use his full
strength. But then again, even 2d6 killing attacks can be pretty deadly.
I'd let someone use their judgment with deadly powers, but I'd expect a
lot of angst-ridden role-playing if the character ever actually *did*
accidentally kill with his deadly powers. The villains could trick the
hero into making him *believe* he screwed up (with a hologram or dummy,
and a few plants in the media) to get rid of an adversary that couldn't
best in battle by shaking his confidence and faith in himself. Heh. Fun
adventure.

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Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:01:29 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: DunDraCon report
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> > Ah well, I'll probably still go for the programs, from what I saw
> > of the Fuzion package at GenCon. It's really a nice-looking system.
>
> I bought Creation Workshop while at GenCon, based on the promise from the Hero
> guys there that it -would- shortly support Champs 4th Ed. characters as well.
> It's got a GREAT interface...MUCH nicer than Heromaker. Unfortunately, it's been
> seven months now, and it's still useless to me, because it still doesn't support
> Champs. :/ $35 bucks I could have spent on something else.

The word "shortly" was the key for me. It told me to wait utill
they announced it sometime in '98.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:04:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: DunDraCon report
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On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, John and Ron Prins wrote:

> BTW, why didn't we get stats for Jei? And will we ever get more animal types?

Yeah, why no stats for Jei?

And I really didn't like the cop-out section on the supernatural and the
UY universe. I would have expected at least a basic primer on Japanese
supernatural creatures and conventions. I mean, Usagi's run into enough
yurei, goblins, a hannya and all that to get more than a few short
paragraphs.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:58:10 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: DunDraCon report
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>> BTW, why didn't we get stats for Jei? And will we ever get more animal types?
>
>Yeah, why no stats for Jei?

Major, major oversight. Also, conversion notes to HERO 4th (5th?) would have
been good - in case somebody wanted to go for full-blown samurai martial arts.

>And I really didn't like the cop-out section on the supernatural and the
>UY universe. I would have expected at least a basic primer on Japanese
>supernatural creatures and conventions. I mean, Usagi's run into enough
>yurei, goblins, a hannya and all that to get more than a few short
>paragraphs.

Indeed. Especially given the current Grasscutter story arc, which includes a
magic sword as well as a full-blown 'witch'. Sure, I wouldn't allow PC
spellcasters in UY but knowing in general what they are capable of would
have been nice. Usagi seems to trip over something supernatural about one
story in 5...I guess if you made Usagi in HERO terms he'd have Hunted:
Supernatural Creatures 8- to justify this level of interaction...;-)

Anyway. The Usagi RPG needs more animals. You gotta know somebody's going to
want to play a porcupine samurai (though I don't recall ever seeing one in
UY). Though I suppose my copy of TMNT RPG would offer suggestions :-/.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:18:39 +0000
Subject: Re: DundraCon Report
Priority: normal
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> But I didn't do any gaming this year myself. Con games tend to be
> high combat low plot, and as I have my own Tuesday night game, the
> need for a quick fix wasn't there this year.

You didn't play in my game, Brian. Lots of plot :D Maybe next year
;P

Glad to hear a report on the Fuzion seminar: I missed that one. I
did go to the Hero Games seminar and the Gold Rush Games seminar: a
complete report should be available on my Home Page by tommorrow if
not later tonite.

Theala

----------------
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Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

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Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:21:34 +0000
Subject: Re: DunDraCon report
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> > convention (other than the two Origins here), and I've heard that Hero
> > Games sends people to some East Coast conventions. The other dealers at
>
> Steve Long for one lives on the East Coast. I was suprised to see
> him at DundraCon. But then I kept overhearing him and the Hero guys
> talking about getting together to discuss plans for 5th edition; so
> that and the panels he was on must have brought him out.

Steve has been going to DDC for the past several years because it's a
big con for the Hero Partners. He's not the only East Coaster who
was there, I went and I live in Delaware. It was a nice break from
my local surroundings, tho unfortunately, I didn't escape the rain ;(


----------------
Theala Sildorian
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Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

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From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:29:07 +0000
Subject: Re: San Angelo:City of Heros
Priority: normal
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>
> Is this out yet ? Lone Star in Dallas says that they haven't got it
> from their distributor (Chessex).
>
> Curt
>

It's been pushed back. You can get the full story on SA on my gossip
page, but it should be out in another month or so.

Amy

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Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:38:31 -0500
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From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 2/18/98 8:59 AM Bob Greenwade (bob.greenwade@klock.com) Said:

> As several folks have pointed out, it's also dependent on the culture
>and the intended target.
> Would a character with even a 25-point CAK have trouble using his 5d6
>Killing Attack against a chair? Obviously not.
> Would he have trouble using it against a mindless, undead zombie? I
>doubt it, but cultural standards do vary.


I dunno, If I were the GM, I doubt I would even _allow_ a character with
a 25 pt CAK to ever use a 5d6 KA, no matter what the target, unless
another 25-pt Psych Lim were involved.

"I cannot use this power that has been given me, for it is so deadly that
many people could possibly be destroyed."


David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:49:28 +0000
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: DunDraCon report
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Brian Wong wrote:
> I've never figured out how to find out when a game in the open gaming
> rooms is starting up and where to go to join it. Unless you just have
> to sit around and wait until a hapless GM stumbles in. :)

I used to be great at trolling for games. Now it's a bit harder or I'm more
discriminating.
This was one of the few years I didn't play or run in open gaming. Something
about only being there on Sunday. I really wish DDC was not so close to
Valentine's Day.

I wound up playing in two scheduled games. Joe D's champions game (Jurassic
Parc) at 8am and the Pirate game at 8pm. I'm biased toward Joe's game so I'll
just say I had fun. The Pirate game was fun. Probably the only time I'll see
someone play a version of Russian Roulette best two out of three.

The dealer room was a good thing to swing through. Picked up the updated
version of Arduin for $5. Couldn't help myself. Checked out the
Hero/GoldRush booth. Was more interested in the Hero Plus products. I'm very
tempted in the idea of toting around a laptop instead of rule books.

The flea market was chaos as usual. I did a quick look, but nothing caught my
eye. I always liked Pacificon's flea markets better, but I hear they've gone
even further downhill.

-Mark

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From: Pat10355@aol.com
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:12:33 EST
Subject: Re: DunDraCon report
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Hi everyone,

I had a great time at DunDraCon. I got to meet a lot of Champions fans at the
Gold Rush Games booth and the GRG seminar. Thanks for all the interest in San
Angelo: City of Heroes -- I know GRG is working hard to get it published as
soon as possible.

I hope some of you got a chance to see the sample layouts we brought to the
con. Unfortunately, someone walked off with them Sunday, so we couldn't show
them to everyone who stopped by, but those who saw them seemed to like them.

I also got to meet the Hero Games crew and several other Champions authors in
person, which was a blast, and even got in some gaming.

All in all, a great con. I'll be back next year, when I'll actually have a few
books out to discuss with visitors to the booth.

Patrick Sweeney

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From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:19:15 EST
Subject: Re: DunDraCon report
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<< I don't think I included that in my count. That's likely one of the few
things I wish I hadn't missed by not going Friday. And possibly the only
Fuzion game I can put up with at this point.>>

It was great! We had a fantastic group of players. I don't think they
appreciated the boomers from BGC showing up though... (joke).

We're planning to run several San Angelo: City of Heroes events at next
year's DDC. Just FYI. We're also planning some sort of reward system for other
GMs who run Hero System games there... More on that later.

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: DunDraCon report
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:28:43 -0800 (PST)
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> Brian Wong wrote:
>> I've never figured out how to find out when a game in the open gaming
>> rooms is starting up and where to go to join it. Unless you just have
>> to sit around and wait until a hapless GM stumbles in. :)
>
> I used to be great at trolling for games. Now it's a bit harder or I'm more
> discriminating.
> This was one of the few years I didn't play or run in open gaming. Something
> about only being there on Sunday. I really wish DDC was not so close to
> Valentine's Day.

Agreed. That kept me down to just Sunday as well. Sure I could have
gone Friday and Monday as well, but they seem as worth the money as
Saturday and Sunday would have. And since Saturday was a definate no...
So what is the trick to finding games in the open gaming area? Just
meet the GM's while playing alongside in a scheduled game? At pacificon 96 I
remember a form GM's could put up to advertise games they planned to run there.

> The dealer room was a good thing to swing through. Picked up the updated
> version of Arduin for $5. Couldn't help myself. Checked out the
> Hero/GoldRush booth. Was more interested in the Hero Plus products. I'm very
> tempted in the idea of toting around a laptop instead of rule books.

Had a very bad experience with Arduin once in 85, and haven't gone
near it since. I too spent a lot of time at the Hero/GRG booth. Was annoyed
that most of the other booth's weren't doing any discounts. Most of the stuff
there I could get cheaper at Gamescape (SF gaming store). Only real finds
where things like the Korean language M:TG booster packs (since it's my second
language, I grab anything I can in Korean). The GRG stuff was sold at a
discount; but I already own most of it. They tried hard to sell me on some
Dark Champions stuff though. :) But I'm heavily against that sub-genre so I
wouldn't find much use for those books in my games.

> The flea market was chaos as usual. I did a quick look, but nothing caught my
> eye. I always liked Pacificon's flea markets better, but I hear they've gone
> even further downhill.

I missed Pacificon 97, but 96 had a much dealer's room and Flea market
than Dundracon 97 or 98. I did find Justice Inc in the Flea market, though I
had to bodily move at least a few people out of my way to grab it faster than
other hands I saw moving for it. :)
If I can make it, I'll definatly be at Pacificon 98. Hopefully it
will have a better dealer's room than Dundracon.

Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/

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From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:52:50 EST
Subject: Re: DunDraCon report
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<< [Instant Fuzion] has enough simplification to justify not using HERO 4th. I
don't know why it's called Fuzion at all, really... >>

Because it is the core of the Fuzion system. Unfolding to Total Fuzion stats
is a breeze, and condensing Total Fuzion stats to Instant Fuzion stats is even
easier (see C:NM - Bay City for examples of these condensed NPC write-ups).
Even though they may look very different to you, they are, indeed, the same
basic system. ;)

<< BTW, why didn't we get stats for Jei? >>

He's a major bad-guy. We've got special plans for him. ;)

<< And will we ever get more animal types? >>

You betcha! We're planning to provide more species and more jobs for player
characters in upcoming supplements. We're also posting the 4th Ed Hero System
write-ups for some of the characters to our web site, too.

Mark @ GRG

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From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:58:02 EST
Subject: Re: DunDraCon report
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<< And I really didn't like the cop-out section on the supernatural and the UY
universe. I would have expected at least a basic primer on Japanese
supernatural creatures and conventions. I mean, Usagi's run into enough
yurei, goblins, a hannya and all that to get more than a few short
paragraphs.>>

Have you considered that perhaps those paragraphs are coming in another
book? We wanted to keep the core rules as simple as possible. Again,m this was
a requirement set down by Stan Sakai himself.

That's not to say that we couldn't have had some really simply magic system,
but none of the "PCs" in the comics have magic, so we opted to omit it from
the core book. You can expect some treatment of magic rules down the road,
however. And a book of beasties and demons and kappa is a certainty!

Mark @ GRG

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From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:22:32 EST
Subject: Re: DunDraCon report
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<< Major, major oversight. >>

Don't assume it was an oversight. We have plans for Jei.

<< Also, conversion notes to HERO 4th (5th?) would have been good - in case
somebody wanted to go for full-blown samurai martial arts. >>

Thoser are already available elsewhere. Also, we'll be posting 4th Ed write-
ups of some of the characters on the web site soon. Further, folks wanting
really detailed martial arts stuff will soon have Sengoku to draw from as
well.

<< Indeed. Especially given the current Grasscutter story arc >>

The products were not simultaneous. Grasscutter is being created months
ahead but we don't get to see it until much later. The Usagi Yojimbo RPG was
current through issue #13 of the Dark Horse Usagi comics.

<< Sure, I wouldn't allow PC spellcasters in UY but knowing in general what
they are capable of would have been nice. >>

Then you'll certainly want to check out the supernatural beasties book,
coming soon for the UY RPG.

<< Anyway. The Usagi RPG needs more animals. You gotta know somebody's going
to want to play a porcupine samurai (though I don't recall ever seeing one in
UY). Though I suppose my copy of TMNT RPG would offer suggestions :-/. >>

We are, indeed, planning to introduce additional species and jobs for player
characters. The UY:RPG is not the be-all/end-all of the game. More stuff is
coming. We just wanted to keep the core book as simple as we could while still
providing a wealth of info for the player.

Mark @ GRG

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Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:24:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: DunDraCon report
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On Wed, 18 Feb 1998 GoldRushG@aol.com wrote:

> << And I really didn't like the cop-out section on the supernatural and the UY
> universe. I would have expected at least a basic primer on Japanese
> supernatural creatures and conventions. I mean, Usagi's run into enough
> yurei, goblins, a hannya and all that to get more than a few short
> paragraphs.>>
>
> Have you considered that perhaps those paragraphs are coming in another
> book? We wanted to keep the core rules as simple as possible. Again,m this was
> a requirement set down by Stan Sakai himself.

True. But I think the section could have been worded better. I got the
impression it was one of 'PCs can't use magic, so we aren't going to worry
about it. Do what you want'. I bit brief for my tastes. At the very
least mention could have been made ofthe Sengoku book, which should (I
think) have a more expansive section on such things.

> That's not to say that we couldn't have had some really simply magic system,
> but none of the "PCs" in the comics have magic, so we opted to omit it from
> the core book. You can expect some treatment of magic rules down the road,
> however. And a book of beasties and demons and kappa is a certainty!

A magic system I could care less about. But just discarding any mention
of even 'basic' Japanese ghosts and goblins was a bit to extreme.

Now, as to a sourcebook on Japanese supernatural creatures - Yeah! Bring
it on!

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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>>>>> "F" == Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> writes:

F> This is entirely your opinion, based upon how you're defining CAK from
F> your perspective... it can't be applied to CAK for others.

What I was describing is a 25-point psychological disadvantage: Code
Against Killing, Very Common, Total Commitment. There is almost no leeway
for interpretation in such a disadvantage: the character will not willingly
and knowingly use lethal force against a living thing. Anything less is
either not "very common" or not a "total commitment". This is not a matter
of perspective, it is a matter of how the disadvantage works.

"Common" and "Uncommon" have narrower definitions, but they are no less
restricting within their areas. "People" in a modern setting would be
considered "Common", so an aversion to killing people, but not animals for
food, would be at this level. In a medevial fantasy setting, "people"
might be a broader group of sentients, but it would also exclude many
"sentient animals", so "people" would still be considered "Common".

And to bring up another character, Al Bester from "Babylon 5". He could
have a Code Against Kiling at the "Uncommon" level. Why? Human telepaths.
They are rare enough to warrant that low a level. Non-telepathic humans,
non-humans, they are all animals to him, just sheep or parasites or even
monsters, but the life of a human telepath is sacrosanct.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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Date: 18 Feb 1998 14:37:51 -0500
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:

BG> As several folks have pointed out, it's also dependent on the culture
BG> and the intended target.
BG> Would a character with even a 25-point CAK have trouble using his 5d6
BG> Killing Attack against a chair? Obviously not.

Is a chair a living thing? I doubt it. So no conflict.

BG> Would he have trouble using it against a mindless, undead zombie? I
BG> doubt it, but cultural standards do vary.

Here is the problem: I am not sure whether or not the original poster's
"zombies" really are mindless critters. His language was confusing at
best, so I hedged my bets by remaining unspecific.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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>>>>> "DF" == David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> writes:

DF> I dunno, If I were the GM, I doubt I would even _allow_ a character
DF> with a 25 pt CAK to ever use a 5d6 KA, no matter what the target,
DF> unless another 25-pt Psych Lim were involved.

In a campaign that allows a 5D6 KA, it might not be lethal force. A 12D6
EB is most certainly lethal when used against a baby or young child. What
a power is called has little bearing upon how it is used, but how a
character's powers are used and what they are used against determines
wether or not it could be considered "lethal".

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From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:46:23 EST
Subject: Re: DunDraCon report
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<< At the very least mention could have been made of the Sengoku book, which
should (I think) have a more expansive section on such things.>>

Then we'd be crucified for pushing other books on the players.

"What? Now I have to buy this *other* book? What a rip off!"

<LOL> We can't win.

Mark @ GRG

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Champions Mages
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>>>>> "JaRP" == John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> writes:

JaRP> Oh, so could I, but if you're in a 23/5 campaign, most of the time
JaRP> you're sitting around waiting for everyone else to resolve their
JaRP> actions (well, you're already doing that, but even moreso). While
JaRP> 'SPD=Fun' is not 100% true, higher SPD characters do get to do more.

That is why I would allow such a charcter to exceed the campaign DC
guidelines (within limits). Sure, all those faster characters get to do
their thing... then segment 12 rolls around and the big guy whomps a dozen
or so agents with a 12-die AoE Cone Energy Blast (shockwave). Like I said,
it would take a really good player to be able to deal with the lack of
screen time, but he should be able to make up for that with volume.

My favorite "ultimate mismatch" of this sort is Fei-Yen vs. Raiden in
"Virtual On". :)

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

TRG> Though those exceptions and special cases could, and in many
TRG> cases should, be added with a limitation. Also, this doesn't cover
TRG> non-Ego (or CON) based entangles.

"CON-based entangles"? This is where I mention the "Based on CON"
limitation for Mental Powers, right? :)

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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:59:06 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 12:38 PM 2/18/98 -0500, David Fair wrote:
>On 2/18/98 8:59 AM Bob Greenwade (bob.greenwade@klock.com) Said:
>
>> As several folks have pointed out, it's also dependent on the culture
>>and the intended target.
>> Would a character with even a 25-point CAK have trouble using his 5d6
>>Killing Attack against a chair? Obviously not.
>> Would he have trouble using it against a mindless, undead zombie? I
>>doubt it, but cultural standards do vary.
>
>
>I dunno, If I were the GM, I doubt I would even _allow_ a character with
>a 25 pt CAK to ever use a 5d6 KA, no matter what the target, unless
>another 25-pt Psych Lim were involved.
>
According to Hero Almanac II, "Never On" is a -10 Limitation. :)

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Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:06:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: DunDraCon report
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On Wed, 18 Feb 1998 GoldRushG@aol.com wrote:

> << At the very least mention could have been made of the Sengoku book, which
> should (I think) have a more expansive section on such things.>>
>
> Then we'd be crucified for pushing other books on the players.
>
> "What? Now I have to buy this *other* book? What a rip off!"
>
> <LOL> We can't win.

<sigh> Alright, a note to the effect that further volumes inthe series
will go into the subject in depth.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
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>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:

>> This is a significant change in how Engangle works. Justify it.

q> No it isn't. You just define a suitable alternative.

Then please do so. You are using the advantage; what are the
alternatives?

q> Get out of the minutiae Repeat the mantra SFX, SFX, SFX. If someone gets
q> englobed in ice, then Frigid's ice-based EB is NOT going to free him;

WRONG! It will do Body damage to the entangle, just as a sledge hammer
with a steel head will do damage to an entangle defined as a steel cage.

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Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:38:42 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 2/18/98 2:40 PM Stainless Steel Rat (ratinox@peorth.gweep.net) Said:

>DF> I dunno, If I were the GM, I doubt I would even _allow_ a character
>DF> with a 25 pt CAK to ever use a 5d6 KA, no matter what the target,
>DF> unless another 25-pt Psych Lim were involved.
>
>In a campaign that allows a 5D6 KA, it might not be lethal force. A 12D6
>EB is most certainly lethal when used against a baby or young child. What
>a power is called has little bearing upon how it is used, but how a
>character's powers are used and what they are used against determines
>wether or not it could be considered "lethal".

True, and with that in mind, players should be very careful that their
CAK isn't going to prevent them from using their own powers. A 5d6 KA (15
DC) attack is, even with bad rolls, going to do extreme amounts of harm.
Having any level of CAK means you have to be more careful than if you
have no CAK. Having 25 points of CAK means that your character will be
VERY adverse to throwing around that level (15 DC's, whether it is
Killing or Normal) of power, as it could easily kill any normal (not just
kids and babies) that it inadvertantly hits. It could also level a
building or two, destroy a bridge, etc. It is alot of damage to throw
around. Now if the character only chooses to use 1-2 d6 of the attack,
fine, but all of it would seem to put human life at too much risk.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:43:34 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: DunDraCon report
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><< Major, major oversight. >>
>
> Don't assume it was an oversight. We have plans for Jei.

Allright, then it was a mistake on your part. Regardless of any 'plans' you
have for Jei, his stats should be in the core rules along with Usagi, Gen,
Tomoe Ame, Zato-Ino, etc.

><< Anyway. The Usagi RPG needs more animals. You gotta know somebody's going
>to want to play a porcupine samurai (though I don't recall ever seeing one in
>UY). Though I suppose my copy of TMNT RPG would offer suggestions :-/. >>
>
> We are, indeed, planning to introduce additional species and jobs for player
>characters. The UY:RPG is not the be-all/end-all of the game. More stuff is
>coming. We just wanted to keep the core book as simple as we could while still
>providing a wealth of info for the player.

Hmm. I'd rather get a 'complete' game in one book than several. Don't get me
wrong, UY RPG is a great product. But at 96 pages long, it really isn't
enough. You're probably printing in 16 page multiples, so 112 pages probably
could have filled the gap entirely - a few pages of supernatural critters, a
few pages of animals, a few pages of jobs.

Oh, about the Nine Lives thing for cats; does that apply to combat injuries?
I don't think it should - rather, it should apply to stuff like being swept
downriver, falling off a cliff, etc. etc. otherwise it's just too powerful.

Urr...sorry, Champs folks, this is getting off topic..is there a Usagi
Mailing List? All I need, another mailing list...



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:53:17 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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At 03:37 PM 2/18/98 -0500, ratinox@peorth.gweep.net wrote:

>What I was describing is a 25-point psychological disadvantage: Code
>Against Killing, Very Common, Total Commitment. There is almost no leeway
>for interpretation in such a disadvantage: the character will not willingly
>and knowingly use lethal force against a living thing. Anything less is
>either not "very common" or not a "total commitment". This is not a matter
>of perspective, it is a matter of how the disadvantage works.
>

I understand the distinction you're making, Rat, but I think you're
oversimplifying things a bit. By your interpretation of a 25 point CAK, any
character with this disadvantage will refuse antibiotics (don't want to
kill those bacteria), won't eat any vegetable matter that involves killing
the plant (and might feel pretty bad about any individual cells destroyed
by eating), won't scratch himself if he or she itches (it would be terrible
to kill any of those microscopic creatures on one's skin), and would walk
VERY cautiously for fear of stepping on an insect. Even there, you run into
problems of interpretation: will the character who willingly accepts
bacterial infections also refuse to treat viruses? How about computer
viruses? Short of a transdimensional travel to Limbo and full life support,
I don't see how it's possible to avoid taking *any* life.

The problem is twofold: "life" is a somewhat arbitrary concept, as any
biologist will tell you, and psychological limitations are by definition
pretty subjective. Certainly, Psych Lim's can and should be used to enforce
consistent behavior for characters, and their point values should relate to
just how constricting they are. But just about any briefly phrased psych
lim will bring with it all sorts of morally ambiguous areas which will have
to be considered within a broader role-playing context.



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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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>>>>> "BS" == Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us> writes:

BS> I understand the distinction you're making, Rat, but I think you're
BS> oversimplifying things a bit. By your interpretation of a 25 point CAK,
BS> any character with this disadvantage will refuse antibiotics (don't
BS> want to kill those bacteria), won't eat any vegetable matter that
BS> involves killing the plant (and might feel pretty bad about any
BS> individual cells destroyed by eating), won't scratch himself if he or
BS> she itches (it would be terrible to kill any of those microscopic
BS> creatures on one's skin), and would walk VERY cautiously for fear of
BS> stepping on an insect.

No, I believe you are exaggerating what I have been saying to an absurd
degree (and of these examples, only one was ever specified as being part of
the exmaple character I presented).

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:55:32 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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At 12:38 PM 2/18/1998 -0500, David Fair wrote:
>On 2/18/98 8:59 AM Bob Greenwade (bob.greenwade@klock.com) Said:
>
>> As several folks have pointed out, it's also dependent on the culture
>>and the intended target.
>> Would a character with even a 25-point CAK have trouble using his 5d6
>>Killing Attack against a chair? Obviously not.
>> Would he have trouble using it against a mindless, undead zombie? I
>>doubt it, but cultural standards do vary.
>
>
>I dunno, If I were the GM, I doubt I would even _allow_ a character with
>a 25 pt CAK to ever use a 5d6 KA, no matter what the target, unless
>another 25-pt Psych Lim were involved.

That RKA coule be an intrinsic power, and the only one the character has
for offense. And as someone else pointed out, it doesn't have to be used
at full power all the time; and, well, there's always Mechanon. Hey, if
nothing else, it could make for some rather interesting character
role-playing, eh?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:55:44 -0500
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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My two cents worth ...

The CAK should be evaluated on an individual basis. It is used to
create an interesting character, not to provide a character sheet
with 20 extra points. When CAK is taken, the player should know
how he intends to play it, and the GM should be prepared to enforce
it at an appropriate level.

There are no hard-and-fast rules for how the CAK would affect the
character. Much like vegetarianism, it's based on WHY the disad
was taken. If the character thinks that human life is sacred, then
no human can be killed, or exposed to lethal force, either by the
character or any other character in the near vicinity. A Jaian
(it's an offshoot of Hinduism, and I've probably just butchered
the name) would have a total code and worries about things like
killing bacteria.

What is NOT covered by the CAK? Again, an individual decision.
Maybe it's ok to kill a non-human animal, or something that doesn't
necessarily look human, or something that is "undead". Maybe
sentience is the qualification. Whatever it is, the player must
decide what is right for the character, and play it consistently.

What about lethal force? Should a player with total CAK fire a
killing plasma bolt against a wall safe? Regardless of what the
game mechanics actually say, what if somebody were standing on the
other side of that safe? What if the blast richocheted? What if
somebody suddenly transported in between? The total CAK character
would always keep that in mind.

What about excessive force? Would your character use a 10d6
attack against a normal, counting on the average die roll to let
the target live? Or would he realize that, under proper conditions,
the target could die? Is it ok to maim or paralyze somebody, just
as long as you don't kill him? (Arnie: "He'll live.")

What happens if the character is in a position where lethal force
is considered? Example: Storm (of the X-Men) mostly follows her
code against killing. But she was forced into a position where
she had to kill another mutant. (Ok, that mutant got better, but
that's not the point.) She spent a considerable amount of time
agonizing over that decision, and it may even have colored future
decisions about her use of force.

The GM and even the other players must get involved as well. How
would your hero react if one of his teammates just dropped a building
on GadgetMan? Will it affect their battle decisions? I have a
character who might actually stop in the middle of battle to defend
the bad guys from lethal attacks from another player. Other characters
might just turn their heads. What would your character do?

I personally like to think that Champions allows just a little more
creativity than your average hack-and-slash games, and the fun is
in playing out these shades-of-gray situations.


******************************************************
Live fast! Love hard! And Die with your mask on!
******************************************************

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Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:55:45 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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At 04:19 PM 2/18/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
wrote:

>
>>>>>> "BS" == Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us> writes:
>
>BS> I understand the distinction you're making, Rat, but I think you're
>BS> oversimplifying things a bit. By your interpretation of a 25 point CAK,
>BS> any character with this disadvantage will refuse antibiotics (don't
>BS> want to kill those bacteria), won't eat any vegetable matter that
>BS> involves killing the plant (and might feel pretty bad about any
>BS> individual cells destroyed by eating), won't scratch himself if he or
>BS> she itches (it would be terrible to kill any of those microscopic
>BS> creatures on one's skin), and would walk VERY cautiously for fear of
>BS> stepping on an insect.
>
>No, I believe you are exaggerating what I have been saying to an absurd
>degree (and of these examples, only one was ever specified as being part of
>the exmaple character I presented).
>

Yes, I was considering an extreme example. Reduction to absurdity can be an
empty rhetorical device, but it's also a valid response to an absolutist
statement. I'm sure that as a GM you wouldn't run things as I indicated.
But I was doing so in response to what you said in your earlier post:

> There is almost no leeway for interpretation in such a disadvantage: the
> character will not willingly and knowingly use lethal force against a
> living thing.

Granted, you specified *almost* no leeway, but that leeway is the topic of
the discussion, which you've been portraying as a black and white issue.

Undead, artificial intelligences, and vastly different types of life
(animal vs. plant, terrestrial vs. alien, sapient vs. nonsapient, etc.)
complicate the matter of "killing". Nobody's advocating a wimpy GM stance
of "if it feels good, kill them"; I think everyone here recognizes that
disadvantages come at different levels, and give compensating points in
proportion to how constricting they are. But I continue to see equally
valid why one character with a "Very Common" CAK might define "killing"
differently than another character with the same level of CAK.




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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:59:21 -0800 (PST)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

> F> This is entirely your opinion, based upon how you're defining CAK from
> F> your perspective... it can't be applied to CAK for others.
>
> What I was describing is a 25-point psychological disadvantage: Code
> Against Killing, Very Common, Total Commitment. There is almost no leeway
> for interpretation in such a disadvantage: the character will not willingly
> and knowingly use lethal force against a living thing. Anything less is
> either not "very common" or not a "total commitment". This is not a matter
> of perspective, it is a matter of how the disadvantage works.
>
But 'I' think it IS a matter of perspective.

If I were running an Elfquest world, and one PC had a code against
killing any 'elven creature', I would allow this as very common, and allow
a total on it. Despite the existance of Humans and the PC's other disad
of Bloodlust vs. Humans.

I can also likewise see a Modern day PC with code vs. killing,
very common, total that lets him go hunting. Yet another PC with code vs.
killing, very common, total who avoids hurting ants. Both 25 point disads.
The diference lies in a combination of their other disads, the descriptions
in their background and personality, and how they are explained and run in
the game.

It's all in the character as a whole, not single disected pieces.

Or so it is in games I run and play in. It's not my style to stick to
'the letter' of the sheet. It's my style to stick to 'the spirit' of the
character.

Now that may very well differ from your style. That doesn't make
either of us justifiably more valid than the other. It just means we have
differing styles of role-playing. In this case, possibly severe enough that
we might be best not gaming together; but still valid.

Rook
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:07:42 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged'
advantage!)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 02:49 PM 2/18/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
>
>TRG> Though those exceptions and special cases could, and in many
>TRG> cases should, be added with a limitation. Also, this doesn't cover
>TRG> non-Ego (or CON) based entangles.
>
>"CON-based entangles"? This is where I mention the "Based on CON"
>limitation for Mental Powers, right? :)

So do we then have Entangle, BOECV, Based on CON?
I have a headache. ;-]
---
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Champions Mages
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:09:22 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> JaRP> Oh, so could I, but if you're in a 23/5 campaign, most of the time
> JaRP> you're sitting around waiting for everyone else to resolve their
> JaRP> actions (well, you're already doing that, but even moreso). While
> JaRP> 'SPD=Fun' is not 100% true, higher SPD characters do get to do more.
>
> That is why I would allow such a charcter to exceed the campaign DC
> guidelines (within limits). Sure, all those faster characters get to do
> their thing... then segment 12 rolls around and the big guy whomps a dozen
> or so agents with a 12-die AoE Cone Energy Blast (shockwave). Like I said,
> it would take a really good player to be able to deal with the lack of
> screen time, but he should be able to make up for that with volume.
>
This is a very good point. One which is why I feel the active point
limit method of balancing characters in inherantly flawed.
It fails to take into account characters who are weak in one area, and
strong in another.
In my own games I judge character's as a whole rather than as parts
for this precise reason. If you read my guidelines, I only give power
level averages. I don't list maxes or point limits. But then I expect a lot
from my players.
Fuzion's rule of X almost works for this, but is often to severe.

Rook
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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>>>>> "MC" == Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> writes:

MC> The CAK should be evaluated on an individual basis. It is used to
MC> create an interesting character, not to provide a character sheet with
MC> 20 extra points. When CAK is taken, the player should know how he
MC> intends to play it, and the GM should be prepared to enforce it at an
MC> appropriate level.

But the point bonus should reflect the degree that it restricts the actions
of the character. Two characters with "CAK, Very Common, Total Commitment"
should have similar degrees of restrictions placed upon them. To treat
them differently at the level of the game mechanics is unfair to one. At
the 25 point level it should not matter that one character is the Tin
Woodsman and the other is a Buddhist ascetic; if they get the same bonus
from the disadvantage, they should have similar restrictions placed upon
them.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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>>>>> "BS" == Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us> writes:

BS> Granted, you specified *almost* no leeway, but that leeway is the topic
BS> of the discussion, which you've been portraying as a black and white
BS> issue.

At the 25-point level, CAK *IS* a black and white issue. What little
flexability it offers is exactly the absurd extremes that were listed. A
character with a 25-point CAK is not going to starve himself (which would
be suicide, killing himself, in fact) or any of the absurdities listed.
But he will not employ lethal force against a living thing. There are no
exceptions to this; it is a Very Common, Total Commitment against doing
that.

The point I have been trying to get across is that if the character should
have some degree of leeway in what qualifies as a "living thing", he should
have a smaller version of the disad. The degree of leeway is entirely
dependant on how the disadvantage is written up.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Champions Mages
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>>>>> "BW" == Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes:

BW> It fails to take into account characters who are weak in one area, and
BW> strong in another.

Campaign guidelines are just that: guidelines. They are not rock-solid
rules. Any GM that treats guidelines as the absolute is a poor GM.

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X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:48:09 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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<x-rich>>MC> The CAK should be evaluated on an individual basis. It is used to

>MC> create an interesting character, not to provide a character sheet with

>MC> 20 extra points. When CAK is taken, the player should know how he

>MC> intends to play it, and the GM should be prepared to enforce it at an

>MC> appropriate level.

>

>But the point bonus should reflect the degree that it restricts the actions

>of the character. Two characters with "CAK, Very Common, Total Commitment"

>should have similar degrees of restrictions placed upon them. To treat

>them differently at the level of the game mechanics is unfair to one. At

>the 25 point level it should not matter that one character is the Tin

>Woodsman and the other is a Buddhist ascetic; if they get the same bonus

>from the disadvantage, they should have similar restrictions placed upon

>them.


No. They should have similarly onerous restrictions placed on them. Remember, the disadvantage we are discussing is "Very Common", not "Ubiquitous" or "Everything". Both characters have a total commitment not to kill some very common set of things. If the Tin Woodman defines that as "everything that moves" and the ascetic defines that as "everything that has a soul", both are (-depending on the world-) "Very Common". The slight differene in frequency still falls within the same range: a whole shitload of enemies that the two characters will have to deal with non-lethally. The fact that there is one exceptionally rare difference that neither may meet in their entire lives is why we define them as "Tin Man" and "Buddhist Ascetic", not "Generic Characters #1 and 2".


Of course, in a world where vampires were common (The World of Darkness, for instance) then a total CAK probably would apply to vampires -for most characters-. I could still come up with some that shouldn't.


Scott



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"It is not the oath that makes us believe the man, but the man the oath.
"

<bold> Ęschylus</bold> (525-456 B. C.)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

<bold>Scott C. Nolan

nolan@erols.com</bold>

</x-rich>
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Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:50:36 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
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> TRG> Though those exceptions and special cases could, and in many
> TRG> cases should, be added with a limitation. Also, this doesn't cover
> TRG> non-Ego (or CON) based entangles.
>
> "CON-based entangles"? This is where I mention the "Based on CON"
> limitation for Mental Powers, right? :)

Actually, that's why I mentioned CON as being handled as-is. An
example power I've been thinking of is throwing pepper in an opponents
face. It can be written up well as a mind control, one command
(sneeze repeatedly), based on con, ocv vs dcv, not vs self contained
breathing, not breathing, etc.

However, it should also be possible to do it with a modified
entagle sort of thing, if the add-on advantage I'm proposing for entagle
is crafted properly.

Do you want to give me a hand at defining this thing along with
its costs?


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:53:56 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org


> q> No it isn't. You just define a suitable alternative.
>
> Then please do so. You are using the advantage; what are the
> alternatives?

Actually, that's what I've been proposing, Rat.

> q> Get out of the minutiae Repeat the mantra SFX, SFX, SFX. If someone gets
> q> englobed in ice, then Frigid's ice-based EB is NOT going to free him;
>
> WRONG! It will do Body damage to the entangle, just as a sledge hammer
> with a steel head will do damage to an entangle defined as a steel cage.


Wrong. At least in my campaign. Your ice attack won't do crap.
But Mr. Flameguy (TM)'s heat blast will do a lot more damage to the
entangle than normal. Or did you forget about the "minor advantages and
limitations for SFX" clause in the BBB?


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:05:56 -0500
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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>MC> The CAK should be evaluated on an individual basis. It is used to
>MC> create an interesting character, not to provide a character sheet with
>MC> 20 extra points. When CAK is taken, the player should know how he
>MC> intends to play it, and the GM should be prepared to enforce it at an
>MC> appropriate level.
>
>But the point bonus should reflect the degree that it restricts the actions
>of the character. Two characters with "CAK, Very Common, Total Commitment"
>should have similar degrees of restrictions placed upon them. To treat
>them differently at the level of the game mechanics is unfair to one. At
>the 25 point level it should not matter that one character is the Tin
>Woodsman and the other is a Buddhist ascetic; if they get the same bonus
>from the disadvantage, they should have similar restrictions placed upon
>them.

Actually, I think it should work the other way around. It should be
up to the GM to evaluate how the CAK is played, and if there is a
disparity as you point out, the point values should be adjusted.

Incidentally, we often have very *spirited* discussions among our
characters when the CAK is invoked!

====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 18 Feb 1998 18:11:00 -0500
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>>>>> "BW" == Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes:

BW> If I were running an Elfquest world, and one PC had a code against
BW> killing any 'elven creature', I would allow this as very common, [...]

I would not, unless *ALL* living creatures are 'elves'. They are not;
there are enough other, non-elf living things around to shift this down a
level to the "common" category.

BW> I can also likewise see a Modern day PC with code vs. killing,
BW> very common, total that lets him go hunting. Yet another PC with code
BW> vs. killing, very common, total who avoids hurting ants. Both 25 point
BW> disads.

And the second character is more restricted by those disadvantages than the
first. You are treating two characters with the exact same disadvantage
differently. That is blatantly unfair.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:

BG> Hey, if nothing else, it could make for some rather interesting
BG> character role-playing, eh?

One word, a single name: Cyclops.

If he does not have a "lethal" blast behind those shades I don't know who
does.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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>>>>> "SN" == Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com> writes:

SN> No. They should have similarly onerous restrictions placed on them.

Um, Scott? That is what I said: "two characters with 'CAK, Very Common,
Total Commitment' should have similar degrees of restrictions placed upon
them." SSNN. But at the 25-point level, the proscription against the use
of lethal force is so broad that it becomes simple to describe: the
character will not kill. There are no exceptions at that extreme level.

What makes the Tin Woodsman a particularly poingiant character is that he
is forced to kill by another 25-point Psychological Disadvantage. It
really rips him up when that happens.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Pepper in the Face
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

TRG> However, it should also be possible to do it with a modified
TRG> entagle sort of thing, if the add-on advantage I'm proposing for
TRG> entagle is crafted properly.

Except for the fact that the SFX preclude someone else breaking the victim
out of this. You dump a pile of pepper or some other abrasive into
someone's face, there is nothing anyone can do about it.

TRG> Do you want to give me a hand at defining this thing along with
TRG> its costs?

If you can find it, dig up a copy of AC 16, the one with the article on
poisons and toxins. IIRC, one of them is a vomit gas. That is probably
extreme, but it could be something reasonable to work from.

Okay, working from the SFX, what does it do? For starters, the victim is
going to shut his eyes as a reflex, and for at least a few seconds they are
going to be watering so badly that he still cannot see. Sounds like a
Flash vs. sight group to me, probably an NND since "natural" Flash Defense
SFX will not keep the grit out. Call it NND vs. "Life Support". An
unsealed mask may provide some limited defense against this attack, GM's
call.

Sneezing... this could be done as an extremely expensive Mind Control, but
I think that is too much. At the moment the victim's OCV is already shot
to hell, and likewise with his DCV if he fails his other Perception rolls.
For plain, ordinary, ground black pepper I think that the Flash is
sufficient for the desired effect.

2D6 Flash vs. Sight group, NND, charges, whatever other limitations may be
appropriate.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
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Date: 18 Feb 1998 18:56:22 -0500
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

TRG> Wrong. At least in my campaign. Your ice attack won't do crap.
TRG> But Mr. Flameguy (TM)'s heat blast will do a lot more damage to the
TRG> entangle than normal. Or did you forget about the "minor advantages
TRG> and limitations for SFX" clause in the BBB?

Utterly negating the damage of a 12D6 energy blast is not "minor". An EB
defined as "ice" will still do impact damage to an entangle made of ice.

An EB defined as "fire" will get a few extra dice against an entangle made
of ice. *That* is "minor".

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Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:56:39 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

>> q> Get out of the minutiae Repeat the mantra SFX, SFX, SFX. If someone gets
>> q> englobed in ice, then Frigid's ice-based EB is NOT going to free him;
>>
>> WRONG! It will do Body damage to the entangle, just as a sledge hammer
>> with a steel head will do damage to an entangle defined as a steel cage.

> Wrong. At least in my campaign. Your ice attack won't do crap.
>But Mr. Flameguy (TM)'s heat blast will do a lot more damage to the
>entangle than normal. Or did you forget about the "minor advantages and
>limitations for SFX" clause in the BBB?

Well, it all depends whether it's an 'ice blast' or a 'cold blast', doesn't
it? BTW, even a cold blast vs. an ice entangle might make it more brittle,
or shatter it entirely. But any attack that does Knockback has a componant
of physical force to it - which will break entangles...

Besides which 'minor' effects seems to involve a small adjustment in the
number of dice, or something equally trivial. In no circumstances should it
hamstring a power that has no appropriate 'actual' limitation. Ice entangles
are one of the more common examples of the power (as are ice Force Walls).
If someone has Ice Armor, does that cold attack get stopped 'cold' <sorry
:-)>? This gets into the realm of involving Personal Immunity...

BTW, could you buy Personal Immunity to a power somebody else has? Example:
Stormboy has a 12D6 Lightning Energy Blast. The Technician makes a gizmo
that gives him PI to that specific power (costing him 60x1.25=75-60=15
points). This sort of thing goes on all the time in comics; gadgeteers come
up with stuff that _completely_ neutralizes a specific attack from the
enemy. Mind you, when Lightning Lass throws around _her_ 10D6 Thunderbolt,
The Technician is out of luck...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:56:58 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>BG> Hey, if nothing else, it could make for some rather interesting
>BG> character role-playing, eh?
>
>One word, a single name: Cyclops.
>
>If he does not have a "lethal" blast behind those shades I don't know who
>does.

Try Havok. He's got an even worse problem. Definitely a case of the 'Beam
Attack' limitation on a big RKA (Cyclops has an Energy Blast, Havok has an RKA).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:08:37 -0600
From: Mike Whitney <mwhitney@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: DunDraCon report
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Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

> The word "shortly" was the key for me. It told me to wait utill
> they announced it sometime in '98.

I guess I'm more willing to give the benefit of the doubt than most....that and I
wanted to show my support of the Hero folks. I'm SO glad that when they left ICE that
they didn't just up and fold. I've gotten a LOT of years of enjoyment out of this
system, and hope that Hero Games continues for as long as I'm around. :)

Mike

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:45:03 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged'
advantage!)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 06:56 PM 2/18/1998 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>BTW, could you buy Personal Immunity to a power somebody else has? Example:
>Stormboy has a 12D6 Lightning Energy Blast. The Technician makes a gizmo
>that gives him PI to that specific power (costing him 60x1.25=75-60=15
>points). This sort of thing goes on all the time in comics; gadgeteers come
>up with stuff that _completely_ neutralizes a specific attack from the
>enemy. Mind you, when Lightning Lass throws around _her_ 10D6 Thunderbolt,
>The Technician is out of luck...

As controversial as the mechanic has already been, I think I'd write
this up as an extremely limited form of 100% Damage Reduction (energy,
non-resistant, -1 for only vs Lightning, -2 for only vs Stormboy, OAF,
final cost 16 points).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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From: "James Jandebeur" <waveking@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Champions Mages
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:44:55 -0800
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>BW> It fails to take into account characters who are weak in one area, and
>BW> strong in another.
>
>Campaign guidelines are just that: guidelines. They are not rock-solid
>rules. Any GM that treats guidelines as the absolute is a poor GM.

Treating guidelines as an absolute=poor GM sounds like a guideline. Are you
a GM?


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Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:53:50 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net
From: Kim <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged'
advantage!)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org, champ-l@omg.org
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At 04:53 PM 2/18/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> q> No it isn't. You just define a suitable alternative.
>>
>> Then please do so. You are using the advantage; what are the
>> alternatives?
>
> Actually, that's what I've been proposing, Rat.
>
>> q> Get out of the minutiae Repeat the mantra SFX, SFX, SFX. If someone gets
>> q> englobed in ice, then Frigid's ice-based EB is NOT going to free him;
>>
>> WRONG! It will do Body damage to the entangle, just as a sledge hammer
>> with a steel head will do damage to an entangle defined as a steel cage.
>
>
> Wrong. At least in my campaign. Your ice attack won't do crap.
>But Mr. Flameguy (TM)'s heat blast will do a lot more damage to the
>entangle than normal. Or did you forget about the "minor advantages and
>limitations for SFX" clause in the BBB?
>


Just a moment..are the SFX of the EB "Cold" (vs ed, does damage purely due
to intense cold) or "Ice" (Vs PD) an icy pillar, reallyt hard snowballs or
whatever?

I can see "Cold" not doing any damage vs and Ice entangle but the icy pillar
sort of attack would be the same as hitting with any other solid object.

I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
But it sure feels good!
Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior

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X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:58:35 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Psych Lims (CAK)
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I dont know how common this concept is, but I always saw Psychological
Limitations in this way:

The frequency is how often the person who suffers from the Psych Lim
PERCEIEVES the situation, not how often it actually occurs. So you can have
someone in a sci fi game who hates orcs... demented, yes, but they might see
orcs everywhere, and thus it might be common.

----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: dobrien@e-mail.com
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 21:00:06 EST
X-Sender-Info: Dennis L. O'Brien
Consulting Systems Engineer
VM Systems Software 15863 (510) 675-5594
Subject: Re: DunDraCon report
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Mark Arsenault wrote:
><< There were also two Fuzion games and one Champions/Fuzion hybrid. >>
>
> Does that include our Friday night Usagi Yojimbo RPG demo?

Mark,
No, it doesn't. I missed that one because it was in the "Special
Presentations" section of the program, not the "Official Games" section.
My apologies.


Brian Wong wrote:
>I've never figured out how to find out when a game in the open gaming
>rooms is starting up and where to go to join it. Unless you just have
>to sit around and wait until a hapless GM stumbles in. :)

There were signup forms on the doors to the open gaming rooms. Not every
GM uses them, though. There was a form for the Dark Champions game that
I played in, but the GM was someone I know, so I had asked him earlier if
he was planning to run anything, and if so, where and when. I've found
open games in the past by cruising, but it can be frustrating. If you're
trying to snag players, spread out a bunch of the appropriate game books
on the table, and maybe some character sheets. Cruisers are often
looking for a specific system and/or genre. Sometimes you can even snag
a GM this way.


Mark Lemming wrote:
>This was one of the few years I didn't play or run in open gaming. Something
>about only being there on Sunday. I really wish DDC was not so close to
>Valentine's Day.

Someone in the Friday night game I played in asked me if would be able to
be there all day Saturday. At first, I didn't know why he was asking.
He didn't know anything about my job, so he couldn't be thinking that I
might have to work. Then it dawned on me that he was asking if I had to
spend Valentine's Day with someone, like he did. My answer was that he
should bring his wife/girlfriend/whatever to the con, like I did. He
said she wasn't a gamer, he had tried to get her interested, and so on.
It later occurred to me that that wasn't the best answer I could give.
This was my 20th DunDraCon, and if my wife wasn't a gamer, it would never
occur to her to ask me to give that up. If she did ask, my reply would
be that I've been going to cons for a lot longer than we've known each
other, and I would continue to go.


Brian Wong again:
> If I can make it, I'll definatly be at Pacificon 98. Hopefully it
>will have a better dealer's room than Dundracon.

Pacificon will be back in their old hotel this year, although the name
has been changed to the Regency Plaza Hotel. There was a rumor that
Pacificon would go somewhere else, because of a price increase at the
Regency Plaza. There might have been an increase in meeting room prices,
but the convention rate for guest rooms is still something like $69 per
night. I called the Regency Plaza and reserved a room at the Pacificon
rate, so I'm reasonably sure that the convention will be there.

A new convention is being started this year on Labor Day weekend,
ConQuest. It will be at the Clarion Hotel in Millbrae, where Pacificon
was last year. I heard a rumor that it's being run by some ex-Pacificon
people, but the other rumor turned out to be false, so this one might be,
too. ConQuest had flyers out at DunDraCon, so the convention's existence
is more than a rumor.

Dennis

"Some facts are true, some are distorted, and some are untrue." - A State
Department spokesman, commenting on an article in Foreign Policy

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: dobrien@e-mail.com
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 21:18:23 EST
X-Sender-Info: Dennis L. O'Brien
Consulting Systems Engineer
VM Systems Software 15863 (510) 675-5594
Subject: Hero Creator for Creator Workshop
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>Did the Hero boys mention when this might be available? I'm also waiting to
>buy CW until the HC module is available.

They expect it to be ready in April. The creation template is in alpha
test now, but the programmer is still working on a utility to convert
HeroMaker files to Creation Workshop format. Bruce Harlick said that the
programmer had to reverse engineer the HeroMaker format, but I didn't get
a chance to ask if that meant that the CW programmer didn't have access
to the HeroMaker source code.

I understand your reluctance. The Hero Software folks are nice people,
but there software track record is spotty. Champions Computer Game or
HeroMaker for Windows, anyone?

Something else I just remembered from the "What's New at Hero Games"
seminar: there will not be a Creation Workshop for Macintosh, because
there just aren't enough potential customers to justify the investment.
Someone pointed out that there is an emulator program that will run
Windows programs on a Mac, but it requires a fairly recent Mac. I didn't
get the name of the program, because I don't own a Mac.

Also, Creation Workshop is a Windows program. It will run on Win 3.1 or
Win 95 (or later), but if you're still using MS-DOS only, it's time for
an upgrade. I don't know if "or later" includes Windows NT, or just
follow-ons to Win 95, such as Win 98.

Dennis

Proud to be using Windows 95---oops. Wait a second while I reinstall...
-- Guy Hoyle

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X-Sender: shelley@mail.mactyre.net
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:54:19 -0800
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <scm@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: DundraCon Report
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 05:18 PM 2/18/98 +0000, Theala Sildorian wrote:
>> But I didn't do any gaming this year myself. Con games tend to be
>> high combat low plot, and as I have my own Tuesday night game, the
>> need for a quick fix wasn't there this year.
>
>You didn't play in my game, Brian. Lots of plot :D Maybe next year
>;P

Yeah, I think the only person who complained about combat in the game of
yours we played in was Matthew, and only because he took 7 Body. <grin>

Thanks for running the great game, Amy!

Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
http://www.mactyre.net

A flung stone has always been a fool's favorite means of putting himself on
a level with the wise.
-- Edgar Pangborn

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X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 20:59:15 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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Bob Greenwade said:
> To look at another example closer to the original question, take Buffy
>the Vampire Slayer. I don't think anyone would expect her to take the life
>of a normal human; in that sense she has a classic CAK, despite the fact
>that her very job is to kill vampires. They're not considered to be alive,
>in her milieu. But things might be a tad different if the vampires got
>together, formed an Undead Civil Rights Alliance, and started picketing
>Sunnyvale High School (during evening hours, of course).

I find it interesting that the special case of Angel hasn't affected her
attitude toward vampires in general. When one of her classmates is killed,
she patiently waits in the cemetery to stake the new vamp before it can do
too any damage. But Angel is evidence that if vampirism isn't curable, the
vampiric bloodlust is at least controllable, given a strong enough will.
It doesn't seem to have occured to Buffy, Giles, or Gypsy techo-pagan Jenny
Calendar, to try and salvage some of these young lives by "cursing" them in
the same way Angel was cursed. (For anyone who doesn't follow the show,
Angel was a Seriously Evil vampire for several centuries. Then a Gypsy
curse restored his soul, enabling him to feel guilt for all the suffering
and death he'd caused. If this curse could be applied *before* any
killings took place, no harm, no foul. Angel could be a mentor for
non-killer vamps.)

In light of this, Buffy's attitude toward her fellow humans can be seen as
a bit casual: no sympathy for the victims, just kill 'em again.

Darien Phoenix Lynx said:
>Superman, for example, constantly used far less than his normal strength
in >fights--when fighting someone on his level, he had to consciously think
to use >his full strength. But then again, even 2d6 killing attacks can be
pretty deadly.
>I'd let someone use their judgment with deadly powers, but I'd expect a
>lot of angst-ridden role-playing if the character ever actually *did*
>accidentally kill with his deadly powers.

Superman, the ultimate Boy Scout, is almost certainly one of the best
examples of
a committed CAK in comics. But even he has committed multiple counts of
first degree murder. Several years back, he had to deal with three Phantom
Zone criminals getting released on Earth. Three evil Supermen working in
concert to create havoc and destruction. They hatched a plot to cause the
planet to blow itself apart by drilling through to the molten core...I
don't remember all the details, but had they succeeded, every life on Earth
would have been lost. Supes felt he had no option, and with malice
aforethought killed all three of them with kryptonite.

Yes, he felt bad about it. He'd violated one of his first rules of
conduct: Superman Does Not Kill. But he'd been backed into a corner and
Had No Choice. It took him a while to recover from that, and he hasn't
become a casual killer as a result of that one incident. Does he deserve
to be downgraded all the way to "Strong, Must make an EGO roll to
overcome"? I don't think so.

Rat is right about one thing, though: the word "total" doesn't leave much
room for interpretation. Personally, I think "total" is a word that should
not be applicable to Psych Lims, only Physical Lims. I do not believe in
absolutes when it comes to human behavior. Anyone will lie, cheat, steal
or kill given the right provocation to do so. Perhaps in lieu of Total
Commitment of Psych Lims, something akin to "Near-Total Commitment" should
be used. With Near-Total, the character could never willingly engage in
the behavior; if forced to engage in the act he feels that strongly about,
under the most extreme circumstances, the character must suffer immediate
and/or long-term side effects. Perhaps the rules from long-term stress
effects could be adapted from Horror Hero.

I will believe a man can fly. I will not believe a man can be so screwed
up psychologically that, convinced the only way to save 5 billion lives is
to use lethal force against three psychopathic killers, he STILL will not
act because it goes against his personal Code. Such a "hero" is worse than
useless.

Damon



==============================
God is dead.
-- Neitzsche, 1882

Neitzsche is dead.
-- God, 1900

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 23:07:20 EST
Subject: Usagi Yojimbo (was DunDraCon report)
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<< Allright, then it was a mistake on your part. >>

Your opinion is noted. Many people seem to agree with you.

<< Hmm. I'd rather get a 'complete' game in one book than several. >>

Here we go again with the great "complete games" debate. <LOL> All I will
say is that if we put absolutely 100% of everything everyone wanted in one
book, it would be over 400 pages long (and more than $40 in price) and we
would never release a supplement for the game. That size book is cost-
prohibitive and for that matter, it would have taken us months longer to
release the game.

<< But at 96 pages long, it really isn't enough. >>

One of the requirements for the license from Stan Sakai was that the product
have a price point that would be more affordable to younger players, and a
size that was more easily digestible. $16 and 96 pages was what we ended up
with. It's not a huge game, is less than the majority of other RPG core books
out there, and is perfectly playable "as is."

<< ...a few pages of supernatural critters, a few pages of animals, a few
pages of jobs. >>

And those still would not have been enough for some fans. Many folks would
ask why we only gave a few pages of supernatural critters when there are so
many more in the UY comics. Why only a few pages of jobs, when there are so
many more jobs that could be written up?

Be patient. I think you'll like what we have planned for the near future. ;)

<< Oh, about the Nine Lives thing for cats; does that apply to combat
injuries? >>

Yes. As it is written, it applies to death from any means.

<< I don't think it should - rather, it should apply to stuff like being swept
downriver, falling off a cliff, etc. etc. otherwise it's just too powerful. >>

That is a perfectly acceptable house rule, and as GM you can alter any of
the game mechanics as you see fit. Keep in mind, however, that once they are
used up, those Nine Lives are forever gone, unlike other special abilities.

<< ...is there a Usagi Mailing List? All I need, another mailing list... >>

Not at present, but there is a Sengoku mailing list where some Usagi chat is
happening. In addition (and probably more appropriate) there is the Fuzion
mailing list.

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 23:42:24 EST
Subject: Re: Psych Lims (CAK)
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<< The frequency is how often the person who suffers from the Psych Lim
PERCEIEVES the situation, not how often it actually occurs. So you can have
someone in a sci fi game who hates orcs... demented, yes, but they might see
orcs everywhere, and thus it might be common.>>

That sounds more like "Psych Lim: Neurotic" or "Paranoid," or something
similar. Generally, Psych Lims values are based on how often they affect the
character, or how often the situation that triggers the Psych Lim actually
arises. Just because someone considers orcs complete blood enemies (Total)
doesn't mean that it's automatically considered a Common occurence unless orcs
really are common in the campaign world (or at least in the GM's scenarios).

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 04:50:26 +0000
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: DunDraCon report
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dobrien@e-mail.com wrote:
>
> Brian Wong again:
> > If I can make it, I'll definatly be at Pacificon 98. Hopefully it
> >will have a better dealer's room than Dundracon.
>
> Pacificon will be back in their old hotel this year, although the name
> has been changed to the Regency Plaza Hotel. There was a rumor that
> Pacificon would go somewhere else, because of a price increase at the
> Regency Plaza. There might have been an increase in meeting room prices,
> but the convention rate for guest rooms is still something like $69 per
> night. I called the Regency Plaza and reserved a room at the Pacificon
> rate, so I'm reasonably sure that the convention will be there.
>
> A new convention is being started this year on Labor Day weekend,
> ConQuest. It will be at the Clarion Hotel in Millbrae, where Pacificon
> was last year. I heard a rumor that it's being run by some ex-Pacificon
> people, but the other rumor turned out to be false, so this one might be,
> too. ConQuest had flyers out at DunDraCon, so the convention's existence
> is more than a rumor.

>From what I heard, last year's Pacificon was terrible. Though part of it was
a critique of the Clarion. I enjoyed Pacificon for a few years, but I've been
having problems with it for awhile. The year GAC came out, I thought I'd be
able to pick it up in the dealer's room. Turns out a game shop made some deal
so that no one could carry anything that they carried. There were some
problems I had with how it was run. Security seemed to be populated with
people who were in it for power, etc...

Valentines issue:
At least next year F-14 is on a Thursday.

-Mark

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 23:33:06 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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> MC> The CAK should be evaluated on an individual basis. It is used to
> MC> create an interesting character, not to provide a character sheet with
> MC> 20 extra points. When CAK is taken, the player should know how he
> MC> intends to play it, and the GM should be prepared to enforce it at an
> MC> appropriate level.
>
> But the point bonus should reflect the degree that it restricts the actions
> of the character. Two characters with "CAK, Very Common, Total Commitment"
> should have similar degrees of restrictions placed upon them. To treat

But humans alone are enough, in most campaigns, to constitute
"very common". Perhaps this calls for levels of degree above "very
common", but I personally would add a second disad called "Finds all life
sacred" and leave CAK only for Humans and near-Humans.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 23:34:50 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
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> >TRG> Though those exceptions and special cases could, and in many
> >TRG> cases should, be added with a limitation. Also, this doesn't cover
> >TRG> non-Ego (or CON) based entangles.
> >
> >"CON-based entangles"? This is where I mention the "Based on CON"
> >limitation for Mental Powers, right? :)
>
> So do we then have Entangle, BOECV, Based on CON?
> I have a headache. ;-]

That's originally how I modeled the pepper attack. I'd prefer a
mechanic that will skip the BOECV and just do a sort of NND-entangle.
Sort of.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 02:00:41 EST
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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In a message dated 98-02-18 14:39:49 EST, you write:

> F> This is entirely your opinion, based upon how you're defining CAK from
> F> your perspective... it can't be applied to CAK for others.
>
> What I was describing is a 25-point psychological disadvantage: Code
> Against Killing, Very Common, Total Commitment. There is almost no leeway
> for interpretation in such a disadvantage: the character will not willingly
> and knowingly use lethal force against a living thing. Anything less is
> either not "very common" or not a "total commitment". This is not a matter
> of perspective, it is a matter of how the disadvantage works.
>
> "Common" and "Uncommon" have narrower definitions, but they are no less
> restricting within their areas. "People" in a modern setting would be
> considered "Common", so an aversion to killing people, but not animals for
> food, would be at this level. In a medevial fantasy setting, "people"
> might be a broader group of sentients, but it would also exclude many
> "sentient animals", so "people" would still be considered "Common".
>
> And to bring up another character, Al Bester from "Babylon 5". He could
> have a Code Against Kiling at the "Uncommon" level. Why? Human telepaths.
> They are rare enough to warrant that low a level. Non-telepathic humans,
> non-humans, they are all animals to him, just sheep or parasites or even
> monsters, but the life of a human telepath is sacrosanct.

What I was talking about was it being a matter of the character's perspective
and definition, and that 'Killing' is going to have an entirely different
meaning from person to person.
Person A may believe that it is absolutely wrong to kill, or use deadly force
on, another human being, but finds nothing wrong with killing animals to eat,
or stepping on a bug. Person A may hold this belief about not killing humans
to the strongest "total commitment" level. And depending upon the campaign
setting, this may warrant a "common" or "very common" rating. ex: in a real
world setting for a espionage agent, this would probably rate no higher than
'common'... but in a dark, anarchist, futuristic setting, where people are
scavangeristic killers, it would be 'very common'.
Person B may believe that *all* life (human/animal/plant/etc) is on the same
level, and all are not to be killed at any cost. This character may hold this
belief at a "total commitment" level, and again the chances of the situation
occurring would vary according to the campaign setting.
The point is, though, that both A and B are "total commitment" in level, but
apply that 'total commitment' up against different forms of life. In other
words, you can't determine or make a statement about what kinds of life the
Disad encompasses, because it will be different for each individual character.

'Lynx

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 02:20:44 EST
Subject: The Busiek Connection
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I have had more than a few inquiries about the "Busiek Connection" to San
Angelo: City of Heroes. To settle any possible rumors, here is what the talk
is about.

As the manuscript to San Angelo: City of Heroes was wrapped up and we began
showing the basic manuscript off at cons and offered the first two chapters
for download from our web site, a great many readers began commenting that San
Angelo was "just like Astro City!"

At first I was very flattered and pleased with the comparisons to Kurt
Busiek's masterful comic series. Similar comments kept coming, and then I got
concerned.

To avoid any possible copyright infringement issues, I contacted Mr. Busiek
and told him what we were planning with the San Angelo campaign book, and sent
a copy of the manuscript for his review.

After reviewing the manuscript he requested we make a few cosmetic changes
to elements that he considered a little too similar to elements in Astro City.
We happily agreed, made the changes, and Kurt then gave his thumbs up to the
project.

Afterward I asked how he felt about the San Angelo: City of Heroes book, and
the subject of an Astro City RPG came up. His reply, which he has generously
allowed us to use as a quote in advertising and promotions, follows:

"I keep getting requests for an Astro City RPG; we're not planning to do one
-- but I think any Astro City fans who want such a game should at least try
out San Angelo. It's an intricated, involving, well-realized gaming world, and
the emphasis on the reality of the surroundings and the humanity of the
characters may make it just what they're looking for."
-- Kurt Busiek, Creator, Astro City

So there you go. The inside scoop on the "Busiek Connection," straight from
the source. ;)

Mark @ GRG
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Watch for San Angelo: City of Heroes, a Champions 4th Ed. campaign book,
coming March '98 from Gold Rush Games! Download the first two chapters from
the GRG web page at http://members.aol.com/goldrushg
To join the Gold Rush Games mailing list, send e-mail to GoldRushG@aol.com
with "Customer List," "Pubs/News List" or "Retailer List" in the subject.

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From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 02:50:18 EST
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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In a message dated 98-02-18 17:48:07 EST, you write:

> BS> Granted, you specified *almost* no leeway, but that leeway is the topic
> BS> of the discussion, which you've been portraying as a black and white
> BS> issue.
>
> At the 25-point level, CAK *IS* a black and white issue. What little
> flexability it offers is exactly the absurd extremes that were listed. A
> character with a 25-point CAK is not going to starve himself (which would
> be suicide, killing himself, in fact) or any of the absurdities listed.
> But he will not employ lethal force against a living thing. There are no
> exceptions to this; it is a Very Common, Total Commitment against doing
> that.
>
> The point I have been trying to get across is that if the character should
> have some degree of leeway in what qualifies as a "living thing", he should
> have a smaller version of the disad. The degree of leeway is entirely
> dependant on how the disadvantage is written up.
>

Now granted, this is just my opinion, but the problem here is that you're
assigning ALL LIFE to Very Common, and leaving everything that doesn't
encompass ALL LIFE as *only* being able to belong to Common at best. (at
least, this is how I'm understanding you).

The fallacy is that this portion of the Disad is based upon how *often* the
Situation will come up, *not* on what percentage of a certain pool are
represented.
Now, of course, numbers will play a *part* in determining how often the
Situation occurs, but by no means *all* of it.

If the player defines his/her CAK as being against humans only, but he/she
will be in Situations where the use of deadly force against or killing of
humans will occur *very often*, then that, by definition, would warrant the
Very Common rating... even though it's only humans.

See, it's a matter of that character, and that character *only*. Each
character is going to be different. Every adventure, that character will be
faced with Situations that will expose his/her weakness (CAK) an Uncommon
amount of the time, a Common amount of the time, or a Very Common amount of
the time, and he/she will have to *deal* with this weakness accordingly.
*That* is what he/she gets points for, *not* whether his/her CAK includes all
forms of life, or just some.

Again, just my opinion.

'Lynx


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <mlnunn@mail.blue.net>
From: "Michael Nunn" <mlnunn@bnllc2.blue.net>
Organization: Rising Force Publications
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 08:22:55 +0000
Subject: Re: Hero Creator for Creator Workshop
Reply-to: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net
Priority: normal
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I would still like to have Heromaker for my Amiga...



"Herozine" Rising Force Publications "SUPER" RPG 'zine,
check out our web site at:
http://users.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm

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X-Sender: jrc@pop1.nai.net
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 06:55:04 -0500
From: "Joe Claffey Jr." <jrc@mail1.nai.net>
Subject: Re: Hero Creator for Creator Workshop
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dobrien@e-mail.com wrote,
>Something else I just remembered from the "What's New at Hero Games"
>
>seminar: there will not be a Creation Workshop for Macintosh, because
>
>there just aren't enough potential customers to justify the investment.

Talk about an insult... Did they also announce that CW will only support
D&D and World of Darkness, because other games don't have enough players to
justify the investment? :-/

>Someone pointed out that there is an emulator program that will run
>
>Windows programs on a Mac, but it requires a fairly recent Mac. I didn't
>
>get the name of the program, because I don't own a Mac.
>

There are a number. SoftPC, SoftWindows, Real PC, etc.

Joe Claffey | "In the end, everything is a gag."
jrc@ct1.nai.net | - Charlie Chaplin


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 06:40:12 -0600
From: Mike Whitney <mwhitney@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: Hero Creator for Creator Workshop
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Joe Claffey Jr. wrote:

> > there will not be a Creation Workshop for Macintosh, because
> >there just aren't enough potential customers to justify the investment.
>
> Talk about an insult...

I wouldn't call it an insult, but rather a financial reality. The Mac has
slipped to a 3% market share. Developing software for it would not be
financially smart, especially for a company as small as Hero. And, since they
can run Windows software in emulation, it's sort of a mute point.

Mike

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Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 12:42:41 +0000
Subject: Re: Hero Creator for Creator Workshop
Priority: normal
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> Except that Hewro uses Macs for all their layout. I know, I've
> asked. And besides, some of us can't, or don't want to run PC
> emulation software on or Macs. Esp since most PC progrmas have
> crappy interfaces anyway.

Yes, the Hero Guru's are all Mac users. But that doesn't invalidate
the point that it just isn't feasible for a small company like Hero
Games to pay out the nose for software that will not return the
investment. You can like a system all you want: if support for that
system crashes, then it's stupid to expect ANY company to continue
creating commercial software for a non-existent platform. Jeese,
some of you guys sound like Amiga users. I know I was crushed when
the Amiga died--it was a wonderful machine. But it died, I got over
it, and modernized. Steve Jobs can wave the Apple flag all he
wants--he's not going to be able to revitalize the Mac at this point.
It's already too late. Sure it's a better machine. But Mac priced
itself out of the market, and now is crying foul. Who's going to
buy a Mac when you can get an entry level Pentium now for under $500
(it can be done--see yesterday's issue of USA Today if you don't
believe me).

The Hero Guru's at the seminar clearly indicated they happily
consider a volunteer effort to develop a Mac interface for CW or HM.
But they were careful to point out it involved a tremendous amount of
work and grief for next to no money. That's why they haven't been
able to keep a programmer on the project for more than ten days.

Sorry 'bout yer luck. But I'd rather see the Hero Guru's invest
money in projects that will keep the company and the gaming material
coming--like maybe turning Hero Plus products into real books
someday, or creating a Hero CD ROM.

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 08:20:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Hero Creator for Creator Workshop
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On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, Mike Whitney wrote:

> > > there will not be a Creation Workshop for Macintosh, because
> > >there just aren't enough potential customers to justify the investment.
> >
> > Talk about an insult...
>
> I wouldn't call it an insult, but rather a financial reality. The Mac has
> slipped to a 3% market share. Developing software for it would not be
> financially smart, especially for a company as small as Hero. And, since they
> can run Windows software in emulation, it's sort of a mute point.

Except that Hewro uses Macs for all their layout. I know, I've asked.
And besides, some of us can't, or don't want to run PC emulation software
on or Macs. Esp since most PC progrmas have crappy interfaces anyway.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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X-Sender: nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:16:46 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 08:59 PM 2/18/98 -0600, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>
>Superman, the ultimate Boy Scout, is almost certainly one of the best
>examples of
>a committed CAK in comics. But even he has committed multiple counts of
>first degree murder. Several years back, he had to deal with three Phantom
>Zone criminals getting released on Earth. Three evil Supermen working in
>concert to create havoc and destruction. They hatched a plot to cause the
>planet to blow itself apart by drilling through to the molten core...I
>don't remember all the details, but had they succeeded, every life on Earth
>would have been lost. Supes felt he had no option, and with malice
>aforethought killed all three of them with kryptonite.
>
>Yes, he felt bad about it. He'd violated one of his first rules of
>conduct: Superman Does Not Kill. But he'd been backed into a corner and
>Had No Choice. It took him a while to recover from that, and he hasn't
>become a casual killer as a result of that one incident. Does he deserve
>to be downgraded all the way to "Strong, Must make an EGO roll to
>overcome"? I don't think so.

A nitpick: Superman did not yet have his code against killing when he
killed the three Phantom Zone criminals. (By the way, these were the
Phantom Zone criminals of a pocket universe, and they had in fact already
*succeeded* in wiping out every life on Earth.) Superman had never killed,
but never explicitly determined not to do it. The guilt from that incident,
combined with a number of major conflicts with psionics, eventually gave
him some psychological problems, which in turn drove him to banish himself
away from Earth until he could trust himself again. When he resolved his
difficulties, he made a vow never to kill again. In Champions terms, that's
when he got his CAK. (I never liked the execution story, but the post-Byrne
exile in space was excellent.)

>Rat is right about one thing, though: the word "total" doesn't leave much
>room for interpretation.

The word "total" doesn't, but the words "killing" and "life" do.

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X-Sender: voxel@mail.theramp.net
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 08:24:17 -0600
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 11:18 PM 2/17/98 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>I do recall that Captain America, who most people consider to have
>CAK, decapitated the vampire Captain Blood. Apparently a difference of
>opinion there as to who was alive.

Not necessarily, as Cap can kill when he deems it the only option available
to save lives. For example, around the time Scourge was just getting active,
Cap went through a lot of guilt when he was forced to use a gun to take out
an opponent in the absence of his shield. In the case of Baron Blood (note
proper title :]), he could have just reasoned that the *only* way to prevent
Blood from killing innocents was to destroy him.

--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html

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Subject: Re: Hero Creator for Creator Workshop
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:08:23 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 2/18/98 9:18 PM dobrien@e-mail.com (dobrien@e-mail.com) Said:

>Something else I just remembered from the "What's New at Hero Games"
>seminar: there will not be a Creation Workshop for Macintosh, because
>there just aren't enough potential customers to justify the investment.
>Someone pointed out that there is an emulator program that will run
>Windows programs on a Mac, but it requires a fairly recent Mac. I didn't
>get the name of the program, because I don't own a Mac.
>
>Also, Creation Workshop is a Windows program. It will run on Win 3.1 or
>Win 95 (or later), but if you're still using MS-DOS only, it's time for
>an upgrade. I don't know if "or later" includes Windows NT, or just
>follow-ons to Win 95, such as Win 98.

Not suprising, really. We Mac folks take this kind of abuse all the time.
I currently run HeroMaker on my Mac using Virtual PC, which runs Windows
95, DOS, Windows 3.1, Or Windows NT. And does it on my G3 faster than on
a Pentium 300.
I _highly_ reccomend virtual PC to an Mac-Heads who role-play.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 19 Feb 1998 11:25:02 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

>> But the point bonus should reflect the degree that it restricts the actions
>> of the character. Two characters with "CAK, Very Common, Total Commitment"
>> should have similar degrees of restrictions placed upon them. To treat

TRG> But humans alone are enough, in most campaigns, to constitute
TRG> "very common".

Um, so my cats don't count under a 25-point CAK, eh? :)

TRG> Perhaps this calls for levels of degree above "very common",

The problem is not the definition of "very common", the problem is the
inappropriately assumed eqivalence between "very common" and "people".
When it comes to living things, "people" is a "common" category; "very
common" would include animals, and maybe plants and even bacteria if you
wish to be particularly aburd.

A "believes in the sanctity of life" disad has a different focus. The
average anti-abortion terrorist has this disad at a particularly extreme
level, but he does not have a CAK.

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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
\ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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>>>>> "F" == Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> writes:

[...]

F> See, it's a matter of that character, and that character *only*.

No, it is not. If the scope of "very common" varies from character to
character, someone is getting shafted by the GM.

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Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Hero Creator for Creator Workshop <OFF TOPIC>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:29:23 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 2/19/98 7:40 AM Mike Whitney (mwhitney@swbell.net) Said:

>I wouldn't call it an insult, but rather a financial reality. The Mac has
>slipped to a 3% market share. Developing software for it would not be
>financially smart, especially for a company as small as Hero. And, since
>they can run Windows software in emulation, it's sort of a mute point.

That a very interesting figure, where did you get it? The current listing
of computers (personal computers) _in use_ today, compiled by Dataquest,
puts Mac OS systems at just over 26 million, Windows 95 at slightly over
30 million, windows 3.1/dos systems at over 118 million an other OS's
(os/2, Amiga, Etc) at just over 4 million. Doing the math gives a market
share of just a hair over 22%.

More and more mainstream software companies are recognizing that the hype
of Apple's death was caused by the Windows-dependent hardware companies,
and are again producing their software for both platforms, albeit later
for the Mac than for windows, but producing it nonetheless. 18 of the top
20 PC games of 1996 were available for the Mac in 1996 or before July
1997.

RPGers tend to be more intelligent, more creative, and more likely to do
their own thing than society as a whole; this would seem to make the Mac
a viable market for this product.

Ok, no more ranting.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Champions Mages
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>>>>> "JJ" == James Jandebeur <waveking@concentric.net> writes:

JJ> Treating guidelines as an absolute=poor GM sounds like a guideline.
JJ> Are you a GM?

No. I've tried and failed. I need too much time to switch between
characters to manage it. And I'm too lazy to try a PBEM :).

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Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:37:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Hero Creator for Creator Workshop <OFF TOPIC>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, David Fair wrote:

> On 2/19/98 7:40 AM Mike Whitney (mwhitney@swbell.net) Said:
>
> >I wouldn't call it an insult, but rather a financial reality. The Mac has
> >slipped to a 3% market share. Developing software for it would not be
> >financially smart, especially for a company as small as Hero. And, since
> >they can run Windows software in emulation, it's sort of a mute point.
>
> That a very interesting figure, where did you get it? The current listing
> of computers (personal computers) _in use_ today, compiled by Dataquest,
> puts Mac OS systems at just over 26 million, Windows 95 at slightly over
> 30 million, windows 3.1/dos systems at over 118 million an other OS's
> (os/2, Amiga, Etc) at just over 4 million. Doing the math gives a market
> share of just a hair over 22%.

I thought 3% sounded a bit low.

> More and more mainstream software companies are recognizing that the hype
> of Apple's death was caused by the Windows-dependent hardware companies,
> and are again producing their software for both platforms, albeit later
> for the Mac than for windows, but producing it nonetheless. 18 of the top
> 20 PC games of 1996 were available for the Mac in 1996 or before July
> 1997.

And one - Marathon - is still a Mac only game as far as I know. It also
did the Quake and Duke Nuke'm bit long before either of those games came
out.

> RPGers tend to be more intelligent, more creative, and more likely to do
> their own thing than society as a whole; this would seem to make the Mac
> a viable market for this product.

Yep.

> Ok, no more ranting.

No, please, rant all you want.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:58:50 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 26

On 2/18/98 6:56 PM John and Ron Prins (jprins@interhop.net) Said:

>TW, could you buy Personal Immunity to a power somebody else has? Example:
>Stormboy has a 12D6 Lightning Energy Blast. The Technician makes a gizmo
>that gives him PI to that specific power (costing him 60x1.25=75-60=15
>points). This sort of thing goes on all the time in comics; gadgeteers come
>up with stuff that _completely_ neutralizes a specific attack from the
>enemy. Mind you, when Lightning Lass throws around _her_ 10D6 Thunderbolt,
>The Technician is out of luck...

Personally speaking, that sound like a 24 ED force wall (120 points),
only Vs. Stormboy's Lightning Power (-2) for 40 points before other lims
(like charges, foci, etc.). A perfect example, mind you, of using a
VPP/gadget pool really well.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 12:01:44 -0500
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 02:50 AM 2/19/98 EST, Firelynx16@aol.com wrote:
>The fallacy is that this portion of the Disad is based upon how *often* the
>Situation will come up, *not* on what percentage of a certain pool are
>represented.
>Now, of course, numbers will play a *part* in determining how often the
>Situation occurs, but by no means *all* of it.

Good point. People keep claiming this "very common" level based on
the fact that they don't kill humans, and humans are very common. That's
not how the disad points are figured, folks. The "very common" should
indicate how often the disad is a hindrance. I doubt that many heroes
walk around muttering to themselves, "Hmmm... I wonder if I should kill
that one. Nope. How 'bout him? Nah. Her? Uh uh."
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================

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X-Authentication-Warning: snowy.owlnet.rice.edu: chip owned process doing -bs
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:03:11 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Hero Creator for Creator Workshop
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On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, Michael Nunn wrote:

> I would still like to have Heromaker for my Amiga...

I want Hero Creator for my Playstation!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 12:41:33 -0500
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: 17th Century Coinage
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 27


I'm preparing for a pirate campaign, and I'm attempting to work
out reasonably historical systems of coinage for various countries
around the year 1691. What's a pirate game without interesting
booty?

Are there any coin collectors or historians out there who can
help me out on this? I've already figured out the Spanish system
(the most important one at the time) and the English coins (let
me tell you, the guinea is a hoot!) I'm kind of confused about
French coins of the period, though, as I have contradictory
information about when the louis d'or was first issued and I have
yet to figure out what an ecu is worth. I'm also interested in the
Dutch, German, and Italian systems (the latter two being pretty
chaotic, I'm sure), and any information on relative values between
the various countries.

I realize this is a complex topic. I don't need to know every last
coin in circulation, but I'd like enough historical detail to make
the campaign feel authentic. I would greatly appreciate any
information or suggested sources.

Anybody else get this anal about historical campaigns?

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 12:58:35 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 28

>>BTW, could you buy Personal Immunity to a power somebody else has? Example:
>>Stormboy has a 12D6 Lightning Energy Blast. The Technician makes a gizmo
>>that gives him PI to that specific power (costing him 60x1.25=75-60=15
>>points). This sort of thing goes on all the time in comics; gadgeteers come
>>up with stuff that _completely_ neutralizes a specific attack from the
>>enemy. Mind you, when Lightning Lass throws around _her_ 10D6 Thunderbolt,
>>The Technician is out of luck...
>
>Personally speaking, that sound like a 24 ED force wall (120 points),
>only Vs. Stormboy's Lightning Power (-2) for 40 points before other lims
>(like charges, foci, etc.). A perfect example, mind you, of using a
>VPP/gadget pool really well.

Yeah, if you've got a 120 point VPP. A 60 point Force Field (60rED) would be
far just as effective and cost less. My point being that defending against a
_single_ person's specific SFX should be amazingly dirt cheap. Kinda like
Iron Man figures out what wavelength the Living Laser is using and adjusts
his refractory coating to make LL's attack worthless. Happens all the time
in comic books, even with 'lesser' gadgeteers - the main drawback is that
you have to analyze the power you want to counter rather thoroughly.

Also, the SFX does fit the criteria of Personal Immunity. I suppose the
gadgeteer could simply buy an identical* power to Stormboy but with Personal
Immunity (thus rendering him immune to Stormboy's identical EB). How much is
'Cannot Actually Use the Power/Only for Personal Immunity' worth? I'd put it
at a lot more than -2, as it's worse than No Concious Control (as you not
only have no control over the power, you can't use it period).

Hey, Check out Champions Minus in HSA2. 'Never On', a -10 limitation. I
think I just found a use for it...:-)

*Or comparable level of power. Buying 2D6 EB, PI to stop a 12D6 would be
cheezy. But buying 10D6 wouldn't be, IMHO, especially if the gadget pool is
only so large.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 12:08:39 -0600
From: Henry Faust <drfaust@sprynet.com>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Hero Creator for Creator Workshop
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
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X-UID: 29



dobrien@e-mail.com wrote:

> I understand your reluctance. The Hero Software folks are nice people,
> but there software track record is spotty. Champions Computer Game or
> HeroMaker for Windows, anyone?
>

did the campions computer game ever come out ... i heard the rumors and then
nothing ??

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: shelley@mail.mactyre.net
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 10:59:00 -0800
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <scm@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: 17th Century Coinage
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 31

Bill,

Have you tried GURPS Swashbucklers for info? Since I run GURPS for my
historical games, I've always found it to be indispensable, but the source
material is terrific. Money is one of those things we never bothered much
with (we found it equally confusing), but here's what they have:

French:
1 Louis d'Or = 3 Ecu = 9 Livre = 12 Pistole = 180 Sou

Dutch:
1 Ducat = 2.5 Lion Dollar = 5 Florin = 100 Stuiver

The Dutch also have schellings, groots, pennings, ducatoons, ryder and
rijksdaalder like the English have half-crowns, ha'pennies and farthings.

Swashbucklers has info for Spain and England as well (but since you have
those figured out it's not needed here), but nothing on the Italians or
Germans (who are still so fragmented in 1691 that it would be incredibly
confusing).

Sounds like a fun game! I've done Three Musketeers and Scarlet Pimpernel
games, and I've always wanted to run a straight pirates game...I'm envious! =)



At 12:41 PM 2/19/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I'm preparing for a pirate campaign, and I'm attempting to work
>out reasonably historical systems of coinage for various countries
>around the year 1691. What's a pirate game without interesting
>booty?
>
>Are there any coin collectors or historians out there who can
>help me out on this? I've already figured out the Spanish system
>(the most important one at the time) and the English coins (let
>me tell you, the guinea is a hoot!) I'm kind of confused about
>French coins of the period, though, as I have contradictory
>information about when the louis d'or was first issued and I have
>yet to figure out what an ecu is worth. I'm also interested in the
>Dutch, German, and Italian systems (the latter two being pretty
>chaotic, I'm sure), and any information on relative values between
>the various countries.
>
>I realize this is a complex topic. I don't need to know every last
>coin in circulation, but I'd like enough historical detail to make
>the campaign feel authentic. I would greatly appreciate any
>information or suggested sources.
>
>Anybody else get this anal about historical campaigns?
>
>

Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
http://www.mactyre.net

A flung stone has always been a fool's favorite means of putting himself on
a level with the wise.
-- Edgar Pangborn

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: dobrien@e-mail.com
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 14:04:28 EST
X-Sender-Info: Dennis L. O'Brien
Consulting Systems Engineer
VM Systems Software 15863 (510) 675-5594
Subject: Re: Hero Creator for Creator Workshop
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 32

> Talk about an insult... Did they also announce that CW will only support
>D&D and World of Darkness, because other games don't have enough players to
>justify the investment? :-/

No, but they do have a license for Ars Magica Creator. AFAIK, no work is
being done on it at present. Bruce Harlick also stated on Herochat that
they were working on a Traveller template.

>> I understand your reluctance. The Hero Software folks are nice people,
>> but there software track record is spotty. Champions Computer Game or
>> HeroMaker for Windows, anyone?

>did the campions computer game ever come out ... i heard the rumors and then
>nothing ??

The Champions computer game was never finished. HeroMaker was originally
the character creation component of it. In fairness, CW with Hero
Creator should do everything that HeroMaker for Windows would have. At
least, that's what Hero Games says.

Dennis

The German dragon shall find it hard to escape to its cavernous lairs,
for vengeance for it's treason will overtake it. In the end it will
become strong again, just for a short time, but the decimation of
Normandy will be a sorry blow. -- "The Prophecies of Merlin" ,
Geoffrey of Monmouth, c. 1136

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 14:28:34 -0500
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: 17th Century Coinage
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
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X-UID: 34


Thanks for the info, Shelley! That will be a great help.

I'll be making a point of tracking down GURPS Swashbucklers. Thus
far, my best resource has been the ICE Campaign Classics Pirates
book. The Campaign Classics series of supplements for Rolemaster and
Fantasy Hero was really fantastic - by far the best published
source material for the Hero system, in my opinion.

I'm really looking forward to running this game. I've been
fascinated by pirate society for a long time, and I have a fun
group of players ready to play. I'm sure I'll have some stories
and situation to share with the list soon.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:38:15 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 35

> indicate how often the disad is a hindrance. I doubt that many heroes
> walk around muttering to themselves, "Hmmm... I wonder if I should kill
> that one. Nope. How 'bout him? Nah. Her? Uh uh."

No, but some villians and few vigilante types do. :)

Smiley in my universe has these two psych disads:

CAK: anyone who smiles common, total
Must kill: anyone who doesn't smile very common, total

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:01:55 +0000
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Hero Creator for Creator Workshop
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>
> On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, Michael Nunn wrote:
>
> > I would still like to have Heromaker for my Amiga...
>
> I want Hero Creator for my Playstation!

Sounds neat, but can you print? I'd want it ported over to Linux.

-Mark

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:12:15 EST
Subject: Re: Hero Creator for Creator Workshop
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

<< Talk about an insult... Did they also announce that CW will only support
D&D and World of Darkness, because other games don't have enough players to
justify the investment? :-/>>

It's not an insult. It's a fiscal reality. Software development takes
coinsiderably longer than manuscript development. If you have the skills and
the willingness to work for next to nothing, I'm sure Hero would love to have
you write the necessary code for a Mac version of CW. ;) At their seminar
they said that a mere 1% of their sales of Hero Plus (PDF) books were to Mac
users.

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:12:18 EST
Subject: Re: Hero Creator for Creator Workshop
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

<< Except that Hewro uses Macs for all their layout.>>

That has nothing to do with hiring asomeone to develop the software and
write the code...

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:12:20 EST
Subject: Re: Hero Creator for Creator Workshop
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

<< Not suprising, really. We Mac folks take this kind of abuse all the time.>>

Abuse? <LOL> I tell you what. I bet if every Mac user bought 10 copies of
the program then Hero would surely re-evaluate spending the money to develop a
Mac-based CW program. Unfortunately it's not an emotionally-based issue, but
one of pure economics. Hero simply does not have the return on investment with
Mac products that they do with Windows. Sad but true.

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Hero Creator for Creator Workshop <OFF TOPIC>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:18:36 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On 2/19/98 7:42 AM Theala Sildorian (theala@shore.intercom.net) Said:

>Yes, the Hero Guru's are all Mac users. But that doesn't invalidate
>the point that it just isn't feasible for a small company like Hero
>Games to pay out the nose for software that will not return the
>investment.

Any software written in a high level language like c, c++, etc. can be
recompilied with relatively little extra work to run on another platform
(MacSoft, a company that specializes in recompiling code for other
companies, says it takes about one-tenth the development time to adjust
the code for recomopilation on other processors)

>You can like a system all you want: if support for that
>system crashes, then it's stupid to expect ANY company to continue
>creating commercial software for a non-existent platform. Jeese,
>some of you guys sound like Amiga users. I know I was crushed when
>the Amiga died--it was a wonderful machine. But it died, I got over
>it, and modernized. Steve Jobs can wave the Apple flag all he
>wants--he's not going to be able to revitalize the Mac at this point.
> It's already too late.

Steve Jobs has nothing to do with it. THe Mac is a viable alternative for
anyone who cares to actually do some work with a computer, not constantly
work on fixing it. The Mac platform has millions of intensely loyal users
who recognize that the benefits of owning and using a Mac far outweigh
the warm and fuzzy feelings that you get by having the same kind of
computer that everyone else has.

>Sure it's a better machine. But Mac priced
>itself out of the market, and now is crying foul.

It is a better machine, and no one here is "crying" anything.

>Who's going to
>buy a Mac when you can get an entry level Pentium now for under $500
>(it can be done--see yesterday's issue of USA Today if you don't
>believe me).
>
Well, anybody who cares about performance. A $500 pentium has _less_ than
half the processing power as a $1000 G3 PowerMac, for only half the
price. And the PowerMac comes with built in EtherNet (important if you
are considering cable modems or satellite web service) SCSI interfaces
for hard disks and peripherals, and a better OS. Add in the time and
money you will spend upgrading that pentium to make it viable in six
months as well as today (and we all know how easy that is on a PC) and
you will probaby spend less on the G3. The G3 233 out-performs every
pentium and pentium II chip made, including the Pentium II 333 (according
to Byte Magazine), and it won't need upgrading anytime soon, unlike that
underpowered Pentium that seems like such a bargain.

>The Hero Guru's at the seminar clearly indicated they happily
>consider a volunteer effort to develop a Mac interface for CW or HM.
>But they were careful to point out it involved a tremendous amount of
>work and grief for next to no money. That's why they haven't been
>able to keep a programmer on the project for more than ten days.
>
>Sorry 'bout yer luck. But I'd rather see the Hero Guru's invest
>money in projects that will keep the company and the gaming material
>coming--like maybe turning Hero Plus products into real books
>someday, or creating a Hero CD ROM.

I would love to see Hero makes tons of money and start producing books so
fast that I can't keep up. I would also like to see a Hero-CD (as long as
it is Multi-Platform) and genre books for Piates, Robin Hood, and
Arthurian England. I also want a version of Creation Workshop that I can
use without kludging (emulation works well for me since I have a fast
mac, but printing is still a pain). Isn't it ok for us to say what it is
that we would like to see, or is that privlidge reserved for those of you
trapped in the Windows Group-Think Mentality (TM)? If we cannot even
express our displeasure that they have decided against making a product,
how are they to know that anyone even wanted it?

Having said all that, and since it is now _very_ inappropriate for this
forum, I promise - this is my last word about the Mac.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 12:28:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Hero Creator for Creator Workshop <OFF TOPIC>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

David Fair writes:
> Any software written in a high level language like c, c++, etc. can be
> recompilied with relatively little extra work to run on another platform
> (MacSoft, a company that specializes in recompiling code for other
> companies, says it takes about one-tenth the development time to adjust
> the code for recomopilation on other processors)

With the exception of interface software and low-level system routines, this is
true. Unfortunately, modern software is frequently more than 50% interface
routines, and those are _not_ fun to port.
I doubt CW needs much in the way of low-level system routines, but porting
between GUIs is nontrivial, particularly if you didn't originally design your
software with porting in mind.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:38:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Heehee!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

Well, this was sent to me by someone on the AOL Hero List:

Beyond that, we have some older products to put into electronic book from,
and about a dozen new products in various stages of completion (for all
genres; in fact, we just got in a very nice manuscript for an anime
cyberpunk sort of thing)

Oh yeah! I'm feeling better already!

Hey, Bob, get it in gear!

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 12:52:58 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Champions Computer Game (not)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

At 12:08 PM 2/19/1998 -0600, Henry Faust wrote:
>dobrien@e-mail.com wrote:
>
>> I understand your reluctance. The Hero Software folks are nice people,
>> but there software track record is spotty. Champions Computer Game or
>> HeroMaker for Windows, anyone?
>
>did the campions computer game ever come out ... i heard the rumors and then
>nothing ??

Actually, no, though from what I read about the preview copy that was
passed around in late '91 or thereabouts I'd still love to get my hands on
a copy.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 12:59:11 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Heehee!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

At 03:38 PM 2/19/1998 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>Well, this was sent to me by someone on the AOL Hero List:
>
>Beyond that, we have some older products to put into electronic book from,
>and about a dozen new products in various stages of completion (for all
>genres; in fact, we just got in a very nice manuscript for an anime
>cyberpunk sort of thing)
>
>Oh yeah! I'm feeling better already!
>
>Hey, Bob, get it in gear!

Yeah, you're probably feeling the same kind of "oomph" right now that I
was feeling after Bruce spoke equally well of the preview manuscript I sent
him of TUSV.
(The first draft is 3 weeks out now and I haven't heard back from him;
I'm working off the tension by focusing on updates of VOICE characters.
How long does this phase of the production take, anyway?)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:02:31 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org


> No, but some villians and few vigilante types do. :)
>
> Smiley in my universe has these two psych disads:
>
> CAK: anyone who smiles common, total
> Must kill: anyone who doesn't smile very common, total

And I don't think seeing someone get killed will allow the smilers
in the vicinity to keep smiling. Ouch.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 16:05:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Heehee!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:

> Yeah, you're probably feeling the same kind of "oomph" right now that I
> was feeling after Bruce spoke equally well of the preview manuscript I sent
> him of TUSV.

Cool.

> (The first draft is 3 weeks out now and I haven't heard back from him;
> I'm working off the tension by focusing on updates of VOICE characters.
> How long does this phase of the production take, anyway?)

Dunno. Steve Long's on or near this list, though. Steve?

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:07:16 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org


> TRG> But humans alone are enough, in most campaigns, to constitute
> TRG> "very common".
>
> Um, so my cats don't count under a 25-point CAK, eh? :)

Quite possibly, though it would depend on other psych lims and the
initial definition of the lim when purchased.

> TRG> Perhaps this calls for levels of degree above "very common",
>
> The problem is not the definition of "very common", the problem is the
> inappropriately assumed eqivalence between "very common" and "people".
> When it comes to living things, "people" is a "common" category; "very
> common" would include animals, and maybe plants and even bacteria if you
> wish to be particularly aburd.

Why? Humans, in almost any campaign world, are very common. It's
impossible not to continually be in contact with them and, also, combat
situations will almost always involve human opponents. That fits my
definition of "very common".

However, a player can, if he/she wants, define that CAK to apply
to more than humans, still at the "very common" level. I might even allow
some more disadvantage points above and beyond that 25 pointer.

> A "believes in the sanctity of life" disad has a different focus. The
> average anti-abortion terrorist has this disad at a particularly extreme
> level, but he does not have a CAK.

Now I'm not sure if I agree. True. But mix that disad with a CAK
at 25 points, and you have someone who will not kill anything.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:08:52 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org


> F> See, it's a matter of that character, and that character *only*.
>
> No, it is not. If the scope of "very common" varies from character to
> character, someone is getting shafted by the GM.

No, someone is choosing to define their disadvantage to a level
above what the rules allow for. Personally, I feel what is needed is
definition for the disadvantage above the current levels.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:10:05 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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> Good point. People keep claiming this "very common" level based on
> the fact that they don't kill humans, and humans are very common. That's
> not how the disad points are figured, folks. The "very common" should
> indicate how often the disad is a hindrance. I doubt that many heroes
> walk around muttering to themselves, "Hmmm... I wonder if I should kill
> that one. Nope. How 'bout him? Nah. Her? Uh uh."

If you make that the case, someone who has, say, desolid, always
on with no attacks against the physical world can't possibly have any CAK,
as it doesn't matter. Is this the argument being made? It looks that way
from here.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:12:44 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
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> Also, the SFX does fit the criteria of Personal Immunity. I suppose the
> gadgeteer could simply buy an identical* power to Stormboy but with Personal
> Immunity (thus rendering him immune to Stormboy's identical EB). How much is
> 'Cannot Actually Use the Power/Only for Personal Immunity' worth? I'd put it
> at a lot more than -2, as it's worse than No Concious Control (as you not
> only have no control over the power, you can't use it period).

Actually, it doesn't call for nearly that much power. Considering
our hero probably already has say, 25 points of ED, a 35 ED FF, only vs
Lightning Lad's EB will work just fine. Possibly mix in some KB
resistance with the same limitaion, say -10"? Total cost = 55/3=18. Not
too bad.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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X-Sender: nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 17:01:26 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 03:07 PM 2/19/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

>> The problem is not the definition of "very common", the problem is the
>> inappropriately assumed eqivalence between "very common" and "people".
>> When it comes to living things, "people" is a "common" category; "very
>> common" would include animals, and maybe plants and even bacteria if you
>> wish to be particularly aburd.
>
> Why? Humans, in almost any campaign world, are very common. It's
>impossible not to continually be in contact with them and, also, combat
>situations will almost always involve human opponents. That fits my
>definition of "very common".
>

Mine too, for most campaigns. I think the frequency labels need to take
into consideration how often the SITUATION is relevent, not just how often
the restricted potential target shows up. For example, in most superhero
campaigns a Code vs. Killing Criminals would involve a more common
situation than a Code vs. Killing Law-Abiding Citizens. This is not because
there are more criminals than law-abiding citizens, but because a superhero
is far less likely to be engaged in combat with a law-abiding citizen. (Of
course, the hero with CAK: LAC's might find himself battling the loyal
public servants of Latveria one day, but that's a minor consideration.)

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 17:06:08 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 2/19/98 12:58 PM John and Ron Prins (jprins@interhop.net) Said:

>>Personally speaking, that sound like a 24 ED force wall (120 points),
>>only Vs. Stormboy's Lightning Power (-2) for 40 points before other lims
>>(like charges, foci, etc.). A perfect example, mind you, of using a
>>VPP/gadget pool really well.
>
>Yeah, if you've got a 120 point VPP. A 60 point Force Field (60rED) would be
>far just as effective and cost less. My point being that defending against a
>_single_ person's specific SFX should be amazingly dirt cheap. Kinda like
>Iron Man figures out what wavelength the Living Laser is using and adjusts
>his refractory coating to make LL's attack worthless. Happens all the time
>in comic books, even with 'lesser' gadgeteers - the main drawback is that
>you have to analyze the power you want to counter rather thoroughly.
>
Okay, do a 72 point ED FF (72 points) (need 72, because his EB is 12d6),
Only Vs. StormBoy's Lightining Power (-2), requires 1 hour Extra Time to
"set-up" (includes analyzing the power & building the gadget) (-2 1/2), 1
Continuing 1 hour charge (-1/2), OIF (-1/2) for a total Real Cost of 11
(eleven) points.

>Hey, Check out Champions Minus in HSA2. 'Never On', a -10 limitation. I
>think I just found a use for it...:-)
>
>*Or comparable level of power. Buying 2D6 EB, PI to stop a 12D6 would be
>cheezy. But buying 10D6 wouldn't be, IMHO, especially if the gadget pool is
>only so large.

I dunno, unless the SFX were EXACTLY the same, I would probably say no,
and Stormboy may not shoot his EB through a Focus.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 16:34:36 -0600
From: Mike Whitney <mwhitney@swbell.net>
Subject: Re: Hero Creator for Creator Workshop <OFF TOPIC>
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Michael Surbrook wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, David Fair wrote:
>
> > That a very interesting figure, where did you get it?
>
> I thought 3% sounded a bit low.

Apple Computer published that figure in their annual financial filing last fall.
Perhaps Dataquest, always known for inflating their numbers, should check with
Apple.. Here's the Fortune article. You can find that figure in print just
about everywhere:


http://bubblemouth.pathfinder.com/@@P1z9SQUAYC8L9KuO/money/latest/RB/1998Jan25/96.html

Mike
(MY last post on Macs)
(Ex-Amigan, now using PC's, who knows the pain the Mac users must be going
through)



Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:07:00 -0800
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On Wednesday, February 18, 1998 12:00 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:


<snip>
>
>q> Get out of the minutiae Repeat the mantra SFX, SFX, SFX. If
someone gets
>q> englobed in ice, then Frigid's ice-based EB is NOT going to free
him;
>
>WRONG! It will do Body damage to the entangle, just as a sledge
hammer
>with a steel head will do damage to an entangle defined as a steel
cage.


Only if the EB does damage from impact, rather than cold. Not
necessarily true.

Filksinger

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:13:02 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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At 03:10 PM 2/19/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> Good point. People keep claiming this "very common" level based on
>> the fact that they don't kill humans, and humans are very common. That's
>> not how the disad points are figured, folks. The "very common" should
>> indicate how often the disad is a hindrance. I doubt that many heroes
>> walk around muttering to themselves, "Hmmm... I wonder if I should kill
>> that one. Nope. How 'bout him? Nah. Her? Uh uh."
>
> If you make that the case, someone who has, say, desolid, always
>on with no attacks against the physical world can't possibly have any CAK,
>as it doesn't matter. Is this the argument being made? It looks that way
>from here.

Actually, that's quite sensible. A character with a Code Against
Killing who is physically incapable of killing anyone anyway would never
have to face the question of whether to kill someone. And a Disadvantage
that isn't disadvantageous isn't worthy any points.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 16:36:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel R Palacio <dandan@cats.ucsc.edu>
X-Sender: dandan@si.UCSC.EDU
Subject: Hello and Question
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Hi. My name is Daniel Palacio. I just subscribed today. I have
been playing Champions for over a decade (X-mas present, 1987). I
consider myself fairly well versed in the rules, but in my attempts to
revise a writeup of Starman (Jack Knight), I have run into what Ned
Flanders would call "a Fozzie of a Bear of a problem."

For those of you who don't read STARMAN, his powers all derive from
the cosmic rod, giving him powers such as Flight and a Multipower
featuring Missile Deflection (possibly reflection), TK (gravity
nullification), EB (cosmic blasts) Force Wall and RKA (flames). He also
uses the rod as a polearm, used in conjunction with his "jujitsu" (the
writer calls it that, but whatever art he's usin' it AIN'T jujitsu).

Well, about two issues ago, we discovered that he doesn't need to
be holding the rod in order to use his powers. How would I reflect this
in game terms? Would it be an OAF (Personal, probably breakable) with the
indirect (+3/4) advantage put on the multipower? Would it be an OIF with
indirect? or would it just be a special effect?

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 17:02:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Hello and Question
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Daniel R Palacio writes:
> Well, about two issues ago, we discovered that he doesn't need to
> be holding the rod in order to use his powers. How would I reflect this
> in game terms? Would it be an OAF (Personal, probably breakable) with the
> indirect (+3/4) advantage put on the multipower? Would it be an OIF with
> indirect? or would it just be a special effect?
>
It clearly isn't an OAF, since taking it away doesn't incapacitate him.
It could be OIF, if the rod needs to be reasonably near him -- the power can
still be taken away by removing the rod, its just harder. This might or might
not require indirect, depending if the energy blast (or whatever) comes from
the rod, or from him.

It could be a special effect (possibly with an inch or two of OAF stretching);
if he can summon the rod back to him, when it has been removed from his
immediate vicinity, this is appropriate. Incidentally, the fact that it was
just 'discovered' that he doesn't need to be holding the rod qualifies as a
'radiation accident' -- he probably started with a full OAF, and then bought if
down or off.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:15:29 -0500 (EST)
From: THE MAD HARLEQUIN <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Mitch's Dilemma
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Hi,
I'm thinking about running a Film Noir game with surrealistic
supernatural elements.
There is going to be alot of fun things...
Black magic, weird science, and your occasional shoggoth.
Here is my dilemma...

The way the supernature works, you need to have a certain psychological
profile if you are to be 'infected' by supernature.

For example, a vampire couldn't just make someone into a
vampire.
He would have to find someone that fit the profile, or make someone fit the
profile by cultivating the necessary personality traits in them...
...by driving them insane, or making them give in to their darker
side, or by having them murder or give in to another dark lust that would
mar them forever.

Also, supernature occasionally just 'happens.' One day, you might
die and wake up in a moruge with a tag on your foot.

So... first off, I what sort of Limitation do I slap on the
Transform? How much is it worth?

Second, if Mitch the bartender dies, and it 'happens'--
and Mitch is a PC, and it was supposed to 'happen'-- would his
"death" be a valid Radiation Accident? Can you RadAcc after you die?

Opinions, advice, flames, death threats, and annoyingly long
threads that go way off the topic are readily encouraged.

I have to go walk the shoggoth.

-Jason

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 17:22:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel R Palacio <dandan@cats.ucsc.edu>
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On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Daniel R Palacio writes:
> > Well, about two issues ago, we discovered that he doesn't need to
> > be holding the rod in order to use his powers. How would I reflect this
> > in game terms? Would it be an OAF (Personal, probably breakable) with the
> > indirect (+3/4) advantage put on the multipower? Would it be an OIF with
> > indirect? or would it just be a special effect?
> >
> It clearly isn't an OAF, since taking it away doesn't incapacitate him.
> It could be OIF, if the rod needs to be reasonably near him -- the power can
> still be taken away by removing the rod, its just harder.

I'm guessing OIF.

This might or might
> not require indirect, depending if the energy blast (or whatever) comes from
> the rod, or from him.

All of the powers emanate from the pointy end of the rod.

> It could be a special effect (possibly with an inch or two of OAF stretching);
> if he can summon the rod back to him, when it has been removed from his
> immediate vicinity, this is appropriate.

I don't remember seeing him actually summoning the rod back to
his hand (they only show him using this ability for a half an issue) or
using it to attack him from behind, although the rod was floating beside
him, so it's entirely possible.

Incidentally, the fact that it was
> just 'discovered' that he doesn't need to be holding the rod qualifies as a
> 'radiation accident' -- he probably started with a full OAF, and then bought if
> down or off.

It is definitely a "radiation accident." Prior to that issue (#40
IIRC), all he had was Flight, EB, and Missile Deflection, although his
father, The Golden Age Starman used the Force Wall and RKA.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:02:18 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Champions Mages
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-- Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> With 30rPD/30rED for defenses, thugs with handguns (~1d6RKA) are probably
> going to be little more than a nuisance. Their purpose is to get in the
> way so that the Villain du Jour can accomplish his nefarious deeds. A
> handful with shoulder arms (~1.5-2d6RKA) are going to be just obnoxious
> enough Stun-wise that they have to be dealt with quickly.
>
> Full-fledged agents are another story. A fireteam of these guys should be
> an even match with a 250-point super.

Ain't that the truth. In some cases a well trained team of agents with
some decent weapons and reasonable defences (10-12pts resistant) can be a real
serious headache for some heroes. Try giving some of those agents a suit of
turtle armour. I had a group of six of those things against a group of heroes in
a large crowded room and I damn near won.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: dobrien@e-mail.com
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 21:30:14 EST
X-Sender-Info: Dennis L. O'Brien
Consulting Systems Engineer
VM Systems Software 15863 (510) 675-5594
Subject: Pacificon (was DunDraCon report)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>From what I heard, last year's Pacificon was terrible. Though part of it was
>a critique of the Clarion. I enjoyed Pacificon for a few years, but I've been
>having problems with it for awhile. The year GAC came out, I thought I'd be
>able to pick it up in the dealer's room. Turns out a game shop made some deal
>so that no one could carry anything that they carried. There were some
>problems I had with how it was run. Security seemed to be populated with
>people who were in it for power, etc...

I agree, last year's Pacificon was pretty bad. I think a large portion
of the problem was the small size of the hotel. To be fair, the Dunfey
didn't give them a whole lot of notice that it would be closing, and
finding another hotel on short notice is tough. The same thing happened
to DunDraCon once (DDC 6), and the con was simply skipped that year.
The number was reused the next year (1982), for those who are keeping
score.

IMHO, DunDraCon is the best RPG convention I've ever attended; that's why
I've been to 20 of them. Pacificon is better for boardgames and
miniatures, but I'm primarily an RPG player. I keep hoping that
Pacificon will get better, but it hasn't. I keep going because one
convention a year is not enough for me. Slugathon is a fun little con,
but the game selection and dealer's room are both limited. The best Labor
Day convention I ever attended was DunDraClone, but there was only one of
those. I've talked to a few members of the DunDraCon committee, and they
are not interested in doing two conventions a year. That's
understandable, putting on a convention is a lot of work. Now that
ConQuest is going head-to-head with Pacificon, I don't know what will
happen. ConQuest is in the hotel that Pacificon used last year, which
immediately put me off from attending.

As for exclusive rights to sell a particular line at a con, that's SOP at
all conventions I've been to. If the manufacturer isn't there, a local
dealer will arrange to carry their products. No other dealer at the con
is allowed to carry the same products.

Dennis

"Disperse you Rebels - Damn you, throw down your Arms and disperse."
-- Maj. John Pitcairn, Lexington, Massachusetts, 4/19/1775

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:46:40 -0800
From: mcallahan <mcallahan@home.com>
Reply-To: mcallahan@home.com
Subject: Hero plus sales by computer type
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Mark Arsenault said that Hero Games said that 1% of hero plus sales were
to Mac users. How was this number determined, I bought USM and I don't
recall ever identifying what platform it was for (I bought it on Dos/win
disks, even though I'm using it on a Mac (because after all we can read
their disks, and it was the only way it was available)). Mayhaps some
percentage of win/dos sales are really in use on other platforms.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:31:18 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Organization: Sujin & Brian
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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> > No, but some villians and few vigilante types do. :)
> >
> > Smiley in my universe has these two psych disads:
> >
> > CAK: anyone who smiles common, total
> > Must kill: anyone who doesn't smile very common, total
>
> And I don't think seeing someone get killed will allow the smilers
> in the vicinity to keep smiling. Ouch.

Smiley was handed to me as a PC in the first game I ever ran of Hero back
in 1985.
I let him in not knowing what all those wierd disads would do.
In short order he 'went wild' in a supermarket and I learned hard and fast
to read the
character's before letting them in. :) Of course, this was the same game in
which another PC
named Hellspawn impaled a priest on her pitchfork.
Ever since Smiley's been a background NPC. The players hear of him in the
news, but never seem
to get close or figure out who or where he really is.

--
Rook : a common Old World gregarious bird related to the American crow.
__
/.)\ Super Hero Links Page: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html
\(@/ My Super Hero Role Playing Sight is at: http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:40:38 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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> > If you make that the case, someone who has, say, desolid, always
> >on with no attacks against the physical world can't possibly have any CAK,
> >as it doesn't matter. Is this the argument being made? It looks that way
> >from here.
>
> Actually, that's quite sensible. A character with a Code Against
> Killing who is physically incapable of killing anyone anyway would never
> have to face the question of whether to kill someone. And a Disadvantage
> that isn't disadvantageous isn't worthy any points.

So to have a CAK, you have to have a deadly attack, which CAK
basically disallows. Great.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 21:51:06 -0800
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On Wednesday, February 18, 1998 3:16 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
>
>TRG> Wrong. At least in my campaign. Your ice attack won't do crap.
>TRG> But Mr. Flameguy (TM)'s heat blast will do a lot more damage to
the
>TRG> entangle than normal. Or did you forget about the "minor
advantages
>TRG> and limitations for SFX" clause in the BBB?
>
>Utterly negating the damage of a 12D6 energy blast is not "minor".
An EB
>defined as "ice" will still do impact damage to an entangle made of
ice.


According to the BBB, the fact that vacuum completely disables a sonic
blast is considered minor, unless your campaign takes place somewhere
where vacuum is so common that it deserves a limitation.

In my campaigns, "Cannot hurt ice" is not a sufficient limitation to
be worth even a -1/4, expecially as it comes with possible Advantages
as well , such as disabling some explosives and other flammables, or
cooling off things you need to touch.

If the Limitation "Cannot hurt ice" is not enough in your campaign to
allow a -1/4 Limitation, then it is SFX.

>An EB defined as "fire" will get a few extra dice against an entangle
made
>of ice. *That* is "minor".


If I was in your campaign, and I said, "My EB is pure cold. It won't
hurt ice. Can I get a -1/4 Limitation for that?", would you say,
"Yes"?

If so, then that is your campaign, no huhu. However, I wouldn't. It is
too minor.

Thus, SFX.

Filksinger

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 21:59:11 -0800
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On Wednesday, February 18, 1998 3:14 PM, John and Ron Prins wrote:
<snip>

>>But Mr. Flameguy (TM)'s heat blast will do a lot more damage to the
>>entangle than normal. Or did you forget about the "minor advantages
and
>>limitations for SFX" clause in the BBB?
>
>Well, it all depends whether it's an 'ice blast' or a 'cold blast',
doesn't
>it? BTW, even a cold blast vs. an ice entangle might make it more
brittle,
>or shatter it entirely. But any attack that does Knockback has a
componant
>of physical force to it - which will break entangles...
>
>Besides which 'minor' effects seems to involve a small adjustment in
the
>number of dice, or something equally trivial. In no circumstances
should it
>hamstring a power that has no appropriate 'actual' limitation. Ice
entangles
>are one of the more common examples of the power (as are ice Force
Walls).

Is it so common in your campaign that "Cannot hurt ice" is worth
a -1/4 Limitation? If not, then it is SFX.

>If someone has Ice Armor, does that cold attack get stopped 'cold'
<sorry
>:-)>? This gets into the realm of involving Personal Immunity...


The _armor_ is just fine, thank you very much.

>BTW, could you buy Personal Immunity to a power somebody else has?
Example:
>Stormboy has a 12D6 Lightning Energy Blast. The Technician makes a
gizmo
>that gives him PI to that specific power (costing him
60x1.25=75-60=15
>points). This sort of thing goes on all the time in comics;
gadgeteers come
>up with stuff that _completely_ neutralizes a specific attack from
the
>enemy. Mind you, when Lightning Lass throws around _her_ 10D6
Thunderbolt,
>The Technician is out of luck...


Personally, I think this might just be the solution to the 100% Damage
Reduction question. Allow a new power Immunity. Immunity allows you
complete immunity to x. For low costs, X is your personal attack. For
higher costs, you get immunity to a small group or uncommon effect,
larger group or common effect, etc. This allows for such things as
"When I created your race, I bound you all in powerful spells. Your
magic cannot harm me." or "Dragonriders can never be hurt by fire."
However, it doesn't allow for a character who is completely immune to
physical attacks, however.

OTOH, if you don't like the spirit rules, then you still want 100%
Damage Reduction for vampires and other beings which mystically cannot
be hurt, or which are essentially not physical in their existence, but
which have bodies that can be destroyed without stopping them, like
Cuthulhu.

Filksinger

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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 00:01:48 -0600 (CST)
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Mark,

I have the Heroes and the Villains for the con game finished and I am
working on the adventure. You said I needed to sign a release. Do I need
to sign it before I send you the characters and adventure?

Here is the lowdown on the charcters. The PC team are your basic 200 pt
starting out heroes. There are 5 of them pretty generic, but interesting
enough for a one time player. The first villain group has 4 members at 250
each, they are an evil bunch of ba$+@rds, the kind of villains you can love
to hate. The second villain team has 6 members at 175 to 200 pts each they
are fairly likeable, kinda like they just fell in with a bad crowd, a couple
of them die, so you need to feel sorry for the survivors.

And of course the Clone... Unlimited power... under the evil control of
Hourglass...

As Patrick and I finish off the adventure I need to know what steps I need
to take to do this the right way.

Michael
Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist our seldom updated web site...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm

"You have never lived until you have almost died.
And for those who fight for it,
life has a flavor the protected never know"
- anonymous

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:08:07 -0800
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On Wednesday, February 18, 1998 6:37 PM, Michael (Damon) or Peni R.
Griffin wrote:


<snip>
>I will believe a man can fly. I will not believe a man can be so
screwed
>up psychologically that, convinced the only way to save 5 billion
lives is
>to use lethal force against three psychopathic killers, he STILL will
not
>act because it goes against his personal Code. Such a "hero" is
worse than
>useless.


A religious code against killing might very well take a person to that
extreme. The Amish, for example, are a people who, if they followed
their religious code to its limit, would not take the option Superman
took.

That said, "Total" is never quite that in my campaigns. It has its
limits, at the extremes.

Filksinger

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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:11:43 -0800
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On Wednesday, February 18, 1998 8:47 PM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

>
<snip>
> But humans alone are enough, in most campaigns, to constitute
>"very common".

They are? In the BBB, they only qualify as Common, when it comes to
CAK of humans.

Filksinger

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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 00:18:49 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
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> TRG> Wrong. At least in my campaign. Your ice attack won't do crap.
> TRG> But Mr. Flameguy (TM)'s heat blast will do a lot more damage to the
> TRG> entangle than normal. Or did you forget about the "minor advantages
> TRG> and limitations for SFX" clause in the BBB?
>
> Utterly negating the damage of a 12D6 energy blast is not "minor". An EB
> defined as "ice" will still do impact damage to an entangle made of ice.

Sure, but I was talking about a cold-type blast. It might even
add to the entangle, depending on how mean I'm feeling. I do call that
minor, however. That power will do nothing to ice in general.

> An EB defined as "fire" will get a few extra dice against an entangle made
> of ice. *That* is "minor".

Fire and heat I'd about double against ice and ice entagles. Call
it a minor SFX-thing of the entangle, not the attacks.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 00:21:23 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Pepper in the Face
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> TRG> However, it should also be possible to do it with a modified
> TRG> entagle sort of thing, if the add-on advantage I'm proposing for
> TRG> entagle is crafted properly.
>
> Except for the fact that the SFX preclude someone else breaking the victim
> out of this. You dump a pile of pepper or some other abrasive into
> someone's face, there is nothing anyone can do about it.

Right, which is why it needs an advantage of some sort. That's
what I've been proposing all along.

> Okay, working from the SFX, what does it do? For starters, the victim is
> going to shut his eyes as a reflex, and for at least a few seconds they are
> going to be watering so badly that he still cannot see. Sounds like a
> Flash vs. sight group to me, probably an NND since "natural" Flash Defense
> SFX will not keep the grit out. Call it NND vs. "Life Support". An
> unsealed mask may provide some limited defense against this attack, GM's
> call.

Oh sure, I'd probably add in some other attacks with the entangle
to do it right, but otherwise.

> Sneezing... this could be done as an extremely expensive Mind Control, but
> I think that is too much. At the moment the victim's OCV is already shot
> to hell, and likewise with his DCV if he fails his other Perception rolls.
> For plain, ordinary, ground black pepper I think that the Flash is
> sufficient for the desired effect.
>
> 2D6 Flash vs. Sight group, NND, charges, whatever other limitations may be
> appropriate.

I still want my effect to be the victem trapped in a sneezing fit
until his/her constitution is able to overcome the problem.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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The message intitled Characters was not intended for the list and was sent
to it by mistake. Please excuse my stupidity...

Michael
Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist our seldom updated web site...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm

"You have never lived until you have almost died.
And for those who fight for it,
life has a flavor the protected never know"
- anonymous

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From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 02:32:35 EST
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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In a message dated 98-02-19 11:33:37 EST, you write:

> F> See, it's a matter of that character, and that character *only*.
>
> No, it is not. If the scope of "very common" varies from character to
> character, someone is getting shafted by the GM.

Ok, this generates a big *HUH??* from me.

HSR... Psychological Limitation.... pg 123

"A character with this Disadvantage has a mental quirk regarding a given thing
or situation. The player defines HOW OFTEN (Situation is) the limitation
occurs and HOW IMPARING (Intensity) it is. The character gets points
according to the Psychological Limitation table."

Let's look at an example with two characters from the same campaign...

Dr Samsom is a research assistant who spends 90% of his days holed up in a
small lab, hardly making contact with anyone else, bent on finding ways to
save life... all life.

Cpl Matthews is a cop who walks a beat in the worst crime infested part of the
city, determined to make a difference without having to use his gun.

Both men also happen to be mutants who respond to whatever paranormal crisis
the city has.

Both character's players decide their characters have CAK at the Total level.

The GM and player talk it over, and decide that Samson values *all* life...
human/animal/bacteria/etc. Even though Samson won't have an enormous amount
of contact with humans, he will have a lot of contact with all life (in his
lab), and will face an endless parade of agonizing decisions as to what
sacrifices he will need to make to create a greater good, so they agree on
Very Common.

The other player decides that Matthews' CAK is only against other humans...
otherwise, he's a beef-eatin', ant-stomping, antibiotic-popping kinda guy.
The GM and the player decide that he's going to come up against a high number
of situations every day where his CAK will hinder him because of the horrible
area he patrols.
As the GM ponders what kind of Situation to give him, he realizes that both
Samson and Matthews are going to have their respective situations come up an
equal amount of time. And since the Situation portion of the Disad is based
upon HOW OFTEN IT WILL OCCUR (not some scope), he and the player agree on Very
Common as his Situation.

So, even though the scope of what they Will Not Kill is different, the
limitation will occur at the same high rate, therefore they will both have
Very Common.

'Lynx





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From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 02:40:01 EST
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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In a message dated 98-02-19 17:51:00 EST, you write:

> > Good point. People keep claiming this "very common" level based on
> > the fact that they don't kill humans, and humans are very common. That's
> > not how the disad points are figured, folks. The "very common" should
> > indicate how often the disad is a hindrance. I doubt that many heroes
> > walk around muttering to themselves, "Hmmm... I wonder if I should kill
> > that one. Nope. How 'bout him? Nah. Her? Uh uh."
>
> If you make that the case, someone who has, say, desolid, always
> on with no attacks against the physical world can't possibly have any CAK,
> as it doesn't matter. Is this the argument being made? It looks that way
> from here.
>

Well, if he can't ever attempt to kill anyone/anything (assuming he'll not
meet anyone with his sfx of desolid often enough to count), then why should he
get any points for a Disad that isn't disadvantageous? What, is he going to
anguish over the never realizable possibilty of killing someone?
Of course, if it's in his nature to be against killing, he can take CAK, but
not for any points.
Remember, the points are awarded for "how often the limitation occurs".

'Lynx

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 23:57:06 -0800
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On Thursday, February 19, 1998 5:49 AM, Bill Svitavsky wrote:


>At 08:59 PM 2/18/98 -0600, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
<snip>
>A nitpick: Superman did not yet have his code against killing when he
>killed the three Phantom Zone criminals. (By the way, these were the
>Phantom Zone criminals of a pocket universe, and they had in fact
already
>*succeeded* in wiping out every life on Earth.) Superman had never
killed,
>but never explicitly determined not to do it.

Another nitpick. Superman killed normals in the very first Superman
comic, via Missile Reflection from his hands which caused the
criminals to shoot themselves.

Filksinger

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From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 02:57:11 EST
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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In a message dated 98-02-19 23:33:59 EST, you write:

> > Actually, that's quite sensible. A character with a Code Against
> > Killing who is physically incapable of killing anyone anyway would never
> > have to face the question of whether to kill someone. And a Disadvantage
> > that isn't disadvantageous isn't worthy any points.
>
> So to have a CAK, you have to have a deadly attack, which CAK
> basically disallows. Great.
>

I wouldn't go that far... the guy with Desolid A/O won't be able to kill
anyone else with *any* means, if I'm understanding the question correctly, so
he won't *ever* have the opportunity to kill anyone, whether he has a deadly
attack or not. And no opportunity equals no points for the Disad.

A person without a deadly attack can still have CAK, since there are,
according to one fabulously titled book (and I'm probably going to butcher
this to pieces) "20 household items in any room to kill with". The point
being that there are often 'objects at hand' that will do the dastardly deed
just fine, thank you, not to mention simply a person's own hands.

Just imagine being a character without a deadly attack who turns into a dark
alley and finds the man who raped and killed your daughter (and got away with
it), sleeping peacefully on the ground... while a large cinder block lies oh
so close nearby. Ego roll, anyone?

'Lynx

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Hero Creator for Creator Workshop
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 00:00:26 -0800
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On Thursday, February 19, 1998 7:43 AM, David Fair wrote:


<snip>
>
>Not suprising, really. We Mac folks take this kind of abuse all the
time.
>I currently run HeroMaker on my Mac using Virtual PC, which runs
Windows
>95, DOS, Windows 3.1, Or Windows NT. And does it on my G3 faster than
on
>a Pentium 300.
>I _highly_ reccomend virtual PC to an Mac-Heads who role-play.
>
I've never seen the program, but if it can run Win95 and WinNT on a
Mac at any speed, it must be pretty good.

The second part of the claim is rather odd, however. Are you certain
its really _that_ fast? I know that those PowerMac RISC chips are
fast, but that's rather extreme. When did the G3 come out?

Filksinger

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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Hero Creator for Creator Workshop <OFF TOPIC>
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 00:15:01 -0800
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On Thursday, February 19, 1998 8:15 AM, Michael Surbrook wrote:


>On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, David Fair wrote:
>
>> On 2/19/98 7:40 AM Mike Whitney (mwhitney@swbell.net) Said:
>>
>> >I wouldn't call it an insult, but rather a financial reality. The
Mac has
>> >slipped to a 3% market share. Developing software for it would
not be
>> >financially smart, especially for a company as small as Hero.
And, since
>> >they can run Windows software in emulation, it's sort of a mute
point.
>>
>> That a very interesting figure, where did you get it? The current
listing
>> of computers (personal computers) _in use_ today, compiled by
Dataquest,
>> puts Mac OS systems at just over 26 million, Windows 95 at slightly
over
>> 30 million, windows 3.1/dos systems at over 118 million an other
OS's
>> (os/2, Amiga, Etc) at just over 4 million. Doing the math gives a
market
>> share of just a hair over 22%.
>
>I thought 3% sounded a bit low.
>
That is way too low for the number of Macs out their, but sometimes it
seems as if present-day Apple sales may be getting that low. With
Apple seeming bound and determined to destroy the Mac clone market,
Apple may soon be the entire new Mac market again.

Macs last longer than most PCs, and until the PowerPC RISC chip only
software came out, everything written for any Mac could run on the
very first Macs, not something that can be claimed for PCs. As a
result, there are a very large number of older Macs out there, and
they will run newer Mac software, though with newer games they may run
too slowly to play.

That said, Win 3.x, Win95, and Windows NT between them have enough of
the market that a PC only version of some smaller software apps is a
market necessity. The cost of putting them on a Mac may not be worth
it if the market is tiny enough already.

Filksinger

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From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 04:07:48 EST
Subject: Re: Hero plus sales by computer type
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<< Mayhaps some percentage of win/dos sales are really in use on other
platforms.>>

That's entirely possible.

Mark @ GRG

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 01:15:56 -0800
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On Thursday, February 19, 1998 7:51 PM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:


>
>> > If you make that the case, someone who has, say, desolid, always
>> >on with no attacks against the physical world can't possibly have
any CAK,
>> >as it doesn't matter. Is this the argument being made? It looks
that way
>> >from here.
>>
>> Actually, that's quite sensible. A character with a Code
Against
>> Killing who is physically incapable of killing anyone anyway would
never
>> have to face the question of whether to kill someone. And a
Disadvantage
>> that isn't disadvantageous isn't worthy any points.
>
> So to have a CAK, you have to have a deadly attack, which CAK
>basically disallows. Great.


Not necessarily. It requires you to have the _ability_ to kill, true.
However, many superheroes have that ability, indeed, almost all of
them do. Just because Cyclops decided one day that he would never kill
doesn't mean that his eyebeams would go away. Spiderman can easily
kill a normal with his bare hands, but he still has a CAK. Indeed, it
is a significant problem for him, as he holds back his strength on
non-supers, for fear of killing them.

Filksinger

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From: GoldRushG@aol.com
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 04:21:58 EST
Subject: Re: Pepper in the Face
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<< I still want my effect to be the victem trapped in a sneezing fit until
his/her constitution is able to overcome the problem. >>

OC ("pepper spray") doesn't have this effect on people, I'm afraid. Cayenne
pepper *powder* might, but not the spray stuff used for self defense.

Mark @ GRG

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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 04:50:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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>
> <snip>
> >I will believe a man can fly. I will not believe a man can be so
> screwed
> >up psychologically that, convinced the only way to save 5 billion
> lives is
> >to use lethal force against three psychopathic killers, he STILL will
> not
> >act because it goes against his personal Code. Such a "hero" is
> worse than
> >useless.

Sorry, but I will not believe that there is a situation where all other
choices outside of kill or allow 5 billion people to die, unless the GM
deliberately tries to create one and works hard to eliminate every
possible option except for those two. It's a cliche, but it's a cliche of
the CAK hero that there is always another way that doesn't involve
killing the bad guy.



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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 04:14:57 -0600 (CST)
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Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>Sorry, but I will not believe that there is a situation where all other
>choices outside of kill or allow 5 billion people to die, unless the GM
>deliberately tries to create one and works hard to eliminate every
>possible option except for those two. It's a cliche, but it's a cliche of
>the CAK hero that there is always another way that doesn't involve
>killing the bad guy.

I have to disagree, Maybe in "Super-Man" kind of situation there could be
another way, but in a lower powered game, where the kind of options a
"Super" character has, may not be available.
CAK has to be taken with a grain of salt.
Lets compare a couple of "real world" CAK'ings. A Amish person won't
fight to defend themselves because it is against their religon. That would
be a big CAK'ing, maybe 25pts. They can't be sent into a War zone because of
there belief. When the draft was active they were only assigned non-combat
MOS's.
Next lets take a good good person from a diffrent section of the world.
They too believe it is wrong to kill and against their religon, but not to
the extent that the person above did lets say a 15 pointer. They get drafted
and are put into a non-combat MOS.
Both people are doing there job, and some how they wind up behind enemy
lines. Suddenly they are attacked. The Amish hides and prepares to die.
The other guy grabs up a gun and fights for his life. Does that mean his
convictions changed? No, CAK has to be tempered with human natures "Fight
or Flight reaction". Most any anaimal will fight when cornered man is no
diffrent.
Now I guess the next question is how does this relate to Super-Heroes.
Super-Heroes much like soldiers or police officers know that someday they
may have to make that kind of choice. Being a Hero and thinking you won't be
in a fight for your life "to the death" with a crazy villain, is like
working for the post office and thinking you will never have to deliver mail.
I won't allow Heroes in my game to have more than a 15 point CAK, if you
have more you won't take the chance that any attack might kill your foe.

Boy was that long winded...

Michael
Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist our seldom updated web site...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm

"You have never lived until you have almost died.
And for those who fight for it,
life has a flavor the protected never know"
- anonymous

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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 03:58:24 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
Subject: Re: Champions Mages
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Rook wrote:

> This is a very good point. One which is why I feel the active point
> limit method of balancing characters in inherantly flawed.
> It fails to take into account characters who are weak in one area, and
> strong in another.
> In my own games I judge character's as a whole rather than as parts
> for this precise reason. If you read my guidelines, I only give power
> level averages. I don't list maxes or point limits. But then I expect a lot
> from my players.

Exactly! But when I say it, people laugh at me....


--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah

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X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 06:41:22 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>Sorry, but I will not believe that there is a situation where all other
>choices outside of kill or allow 5 billion people to die, unless the GM
>deliberately tries to create one and works hard to eliminate every
>possible option except for those two. It's a cliche, but it's a cliche of
>the CAK hero that there is always another way that doesn't involve
>killing the bad guy.

Doesn't matter whether he was correct about this being his only option or
not. He has to act based on what he *believes* is true about a given
situation. If that was the only option HE COULD SEE, given the information
and resources he had at that time, that's what he had to go on. He reached
the conclusion [and you're right, he may have been in error] that in order
to save the lives of the people of Earth, he had to take the lives of three
of his fellow Kryptonians.

In the current animated Superman series, two Phantom Zone criminals were
released; all he did was project them back in to the Phantom Zone. I don't
recall why that wasn't an option in the comic story -- perhaps the PZ
projector had been destroyed?

Anyway, where Psych Lims are concerned, truth and reality are never as
important as one's honest *perception* of truth and reality.

Damon


---------------------
We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are.
-- Anais Nin

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Subject: Re: Hero Creator for Creator Workshop <OFF TOPIC>
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:09:00 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 2/20/98 3:00 AM Filksinger (filkhero@usa.net) Said:

>The second part of the claim is rather odd, however. Are you certain
>its really _that_ fast? I know that those PowerMac RISC chips are
>fast, but that's rather extreme. When did the G3 come out?

It was, IIRC, October of last year. The biggest improvement in
performance comes from the fact that it uses a 1mb L2 (or 512K l2) cache
that runs at the same speed as the processor (although some models use a
version in which the L2 cache runs at 1/2 the processor speed) rather
than at the much slower system bus speeds (233-266 MHz as opposed to
60-80 MHz). The comparison was done by me at my office comparing a
Pentium II (300 MHZ, 80 MB Ram, Win 95) to my G3 (266 MHz, 96 MB RAM
(W/48 allocated to Vritual PC), Virtual PC W/ Win 95).

It surprised everyone in our office.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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Subject: Re: Hero Creator for Creator Workshop <OFF TOPIC>
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:09:00 -0500
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On 2/19/98 5:34 PM Mike Whitney (mwhitney@swbell.net) Said:

>> > That a very interesting figure, where did you get it?
>>
>> I thought 3% sounded a bit low.
>
>Apple Computer published that figure in their annual financial filing last
>fall.
>Perhaps Dataquest, always known for inflating their numbers, should check
>with
>Apple.. Here's the Fortune article. You can find that figure in print just
>about everywhere:

I see the confusion, The numbers that I had were for PC's in use, while
the numbers quoted were for NEW PC's shipping. My mistake for using
statistiscs incorrectly, checking the article you mentioned I did find
this:

>The worldwide market share of the Cupertino, Calif., company fell to 3.1
>percent in its fiscal fourth quarter, which ended Sept. 30, 1997, down
>from 5.2 percent the year before, Apple disclosed in its 10K filing with
>the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. In the United States, its
>share fell to 4.3 percent from 6.6 percent, the company said.

So it is correct to say that Apple's share of NEW shipping PC's is 3.1%
worldwide, or 4.3% in the U.S.

Sorry for the confusion.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:48:22 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 2/19/98 11:40 PM Tim R. Gilberg (trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu) Said:

> So to have a CAK, you have to have a deadly attack, which CAK
>basically disallows. Great.

Or at the very least, an aversion to pushing people off of cliffs,
shooting them in the head with a .45 you buy at a hunting store, or
slicing their throat with the bread knife in your kitchen drawer.



David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 06:08:48 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> > If you make that the case, someone who has, say, desolid, always
> > on with no attacks against the physical world can't possibly have any CAK,
> > as it doesn't matter. Is this the argument being made? It looks that way
> > from here.
> >
>
> Well, if he can't ever attempt to kill anyone/anything (assuming he'll not
> meet anyone with his sfx of desolid often enough to count), then why should he
> get any points for a Disad that isn't disadvantageous? What, is he going to
> anguish over the never realizable possibilty of killing someone?
> Of course, if it's in his nature to be against killing, he can take CAK, but
> not for any points.
> Remember, the points are awarded for "how often the limitation occurs".

However, lets say our desolid can't hurt anyone hero is an activist,
crusading to stop all killing in the world.
That's a CAK that would be worth points.

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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X-Authentication-Warning: snowy.owlnet.rice.edu: chip owned process doing -bs
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:20:57 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: New Powers / Wild Cards
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On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, Curt Hicks wrote:

> One of my friends has proposed starting a new campaign in which the existence
> of super powers has just begun, perhaps similar to Wild Cards. I've seen
> a couple of campaign accounts with this premise. I'm interested in any
> ideas and/or anecdotes about this type of game.

I played in such a game, and although it's a well known campaign device
now, the mentalism issues can get pretty sticky. Killing someone with an
energy blast as opposed to a gun still falls under many laws, but mind
control? Telepathy? We had a mentalist "Dreamweaver," who could walk in
the dreams of others, or put them to sleep. We found out that there was a
powerful mentalist in Houston taking control of the minds of others
permanently. We caught him, but holding him, and interrogating him, or
prosecuting him was very difficult. For instance, Dreamweaver tried to
read his mind, but the little bugger cried "Stop! Stop him! He's hurting
me! I want my lawyer!" Information gained by telepathy is pretty
questionable when presented in court. TUM has a lot of interesting takes
on how the law can deal with mentalism, but in a newborn supers campaign,
those techniques will still have to be devised.

Scientists are very interested in newborn supers. So is the government,
especially the military. The government might discover their presence
first, and try to kidnap and impress into service and supers that show
up... although a few always slip through the cracks (they could be the
PCs). Scientists will want to experiment on supers to determine how their
superpowers work, either for good or for ill... "Super Paranoia" might run
rampant after a few powerful supers go on a rampage... considering the
damage super-battles can cause, the initial reaction will most likely be
coarse: people will think "all supers are a threat" rather than the more
refined "there are some good and bad supers, after all they are people
too." The X-titles make a big deal out of public prejudice, and are a good
source on this issue...

New superpowers, if they are like mutations, might not always be positive.
Depending on *how* superpowers are showing up, perhaps 50-90% of new
supers have worthless, self-destructive, or uncontrollable superpowers.
The ability to shoot flame from your hands might still leave you with 3rd
degree burns, for example. This is appropriate for a low-powered gritty
supers campaign, where superpowers aren't always reliable and often have
undesirable side effects.




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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:36:46 -0500 (EST)
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> On Wednesday, February 18, 1998 12:00 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> <snip>
> >q> Get out of the minutiae Repeat the mantra SFX, SFX, SFX. If
> someone gets
> >q> englobed in ice, then Frigid's ice-based EB is NOT going to free
> him;
> >
> >WRONG! It will do Body damage to the entangle, just as a sledge
> hammer
> >with a steel head will do damage to an entangle defined as a steel
> cage.
>
> Only if the EB does damage from impact, rather than cold. Not
> necessarily true.

I think Rat's point was that it was not necessarily false, either. Cold
can destroy cold if force (i.e. causes BODY) is involved in the attack.

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X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:44:25 -0500
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net>
Subject: Re: Champions Mages
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>> In my own games I judge character's as a whole rather than as parts
>> for this precise reason. If you read my guidelines, I only give power
>> level averages. I don't list maxes or point limits. But then I expect a lot
>> from my players.
>
> Exactly! But when I say it, people laugh at me....
>--
> -Capt. Spith
> Savior of Humanity
> Secular Messiah

It's all in your delivery;)



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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 06:52:42 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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At 10:40 PM 2/19/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> > If you make that the case, someone who has, say, desolid, always
>> >on with no attacks against the physical world can't possibly have any CAK,
>> >as it doesn't matter. Is this the argument being made? It looks that way
>> >from here.
>>
>> Actually, that's quite sensible. A character with a Code Against
>> Killing who is physically incapable of killing anyone anyway would never
>> have to face the question of whether to kill someone. And a Disadvantage
>> that isn't disadvantageous isn't worthy any points.
>
> So to have a CAK, you have to have a deadly attack, which CAK
>basically disallows. Great.

No, you'd have to have a *potentially* deadly attack. 60 STR qualifies.
Heck, 40 STR can qualify. Martial arts qualify. Even driving a
high-speed vehicle into battle against supercriminals qualifies. And while
a character with CAK isn't going to be toting an AK-47, that doesn't mean
Laserman should be disallowed his intrinsic RKA just because he has a CAK.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:53:17 -0600 (CST)
Subject: New Powers / Wild Cards
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One of my friends has proposed starting a new campaign in which the existence
of super powers has just begun, perhaps similar to Wild Cards. I've seen
a couple of campaign accounts with this premise. I'm interested in any
ideas and/or anecdotes about this type of game.

Curt Hicks

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 07:04:57 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Hello and Question
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At 05:02 PM 2/19/1998 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Daniel R Palacio writes:
>> Well, about two issues ago, we discovered that he doesn't need to
>> be holding the rod in order to use his powers. How would I reflect this
>> in game terms? Would it be an OAF (Personal, probably breakable) with the
>> indirect (+3/4) advantage put on the multipower? Would it be an OIF with
>> indirect? or would it just be a special effect?
>>
>It clearly isn't an OAF, since taking it away doesn't incapacitate him.
>It could be OIF, if the rod needs to be reasonably near him -- the power can
>still be taken away by removing the rod, its just harder. This might or
might
>not require indirect, depending if the energy blast (or whatever) comes from
>the rod, or from him.
>
>It could be a special effect (possibly with an inch or two of OAF
stretching);
>if he can summon the rod back to him, when it has been removed from his
>immediate vicinity, this is appropriate. Incidentally, the fact that it was
>just 'discovered' that he doesn't need to be holding the rod qualifies as a
>'radiation accident' -- he probably started with a full OAF, and then
bought if
>down or off.

Since I haven't seen the comic in question, I can't really comment on
what the "correct" way to represent this would be.
However, if this Stretching suggestion is taken, I'd suggest applying
Invisible Power Effects and Indirect to that Power, with an extra
Limitation that it only applies to the rod's powers.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 07:18:06 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Mitch's Dilemma
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At 08:15 PM 2/19/1998 -0500, THE MAD HARLEQUIN wrote:
[snipped the intro]
> So... first off, I what sort of Limitation do I slap on the
>Transform? How much is it worth?

The Transform would be something like Only vs Tainted Souls, or Target
Must Have Prominently Dark Personality, or something like that, depending
on how exactly you decide to define it. The value is up to you as GM, of
course; just off the top of my head, I think I'd suggest a -1/2 bonus.
Such people won't be extremely common, but the vampire can take time to
groom a target, and it's not intended for use in heated combat anyway.

> Second, if Mitch the bartender dies, and it 'happens'--
>and Mitch is a PC, and it was supposed to 'happen'-- would his
>"death" be a valid Radiation Accident? Can you RadAcc after you die?

In the Champions Universe, Lung Hung, the mandarin leader of VOICE, is a
mutant vampire whose powers manifested after her (apparent) "death." In
discussion with Steve Perrin, I see that there are apparently a number of
mutants running around the Champions Universe whose powers "resurrect" them
after "death," one of them being the never-before-published werewolf
assistant of Lung Hung's who actually runs operations for the Jaws (though
mostly behind the scenes).
I haven't looked closely at the background for Lupus, but anyone who's
read Lung Hung's background knows that two days passed from when she "died"
to when she got up and started her 700-year reign of terror.
Similarly, in the TV version of the Highlander, an Immortal who dies a
violent death does actually die to all appearances, and stays down for some
time (how long depends on how severe the injuries are). But they don't
actually come in to their abilities as an Immortal (at least, from what
I've seen) until after recovering from their first "death."
In Champions/Hero terms, this could be considered a Radiation Accident
at the time of apparent death, even if the powers are technically there
before the death actually takes place.

> Opinions, advice, flames, death threats, and annoyingly long
>threads that go way off the topic are readily encouraged.

Let's take a pass on that last one, OK? :-]

> I have to go walk the shoggoth.

Don't forget the peanuts. (Or am I thinking of something else?) ;-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:25:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: New Powers / Wild Cards
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On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, Curt Hicks wrote:

> One of my friends has proposed starting a new campaign in which the existence
> of super powers has just begun, perhaps similar to Wild Cards. I've seen
> a couple of campaign accounts with this premise. I'm interested in any
> ideas and/or anecdotes about this type of game.

If you can find it, GURPS Wildcards is a pretty good sourcebook on the
universe (a bit out of date; as well as out of print, but...)

My website (see below) has 65+ write-ups of assorted Wildcards characters,
all tkaen from the GURPS book.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 07:35:27 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Pepper in the Face
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At 12:21 AM 2/20/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> 2D6 Flash vs. Sight group, NND, charges, whatever other limitations may be
>> appropriate.
>
> I still want my effect to be the victem trapped in a sneezing fit
>until his/her constitution is able to overcome the problem.

My take on it:

2d6 Flash vs Normal Smell & Hearing/Sight Groups, NND (face covering,
self-contained breathing, or no sense of smell)
Images vs Sound, +2 to PER (to be able to perceive -- this mechanic
will, I understand, be a part of Hero5), Linked to Flash, Only for Sound of
Target Sneezing, not vs CON Roll (w/complementary EGO roll)

The Images, as noted above, are of the target sneezing. the +2 to PER
assumes a normal human being. If the target is mute or is difficult to
hear for some other reason, than any applicable modifiers apply. If the
target has some Power that is automatically activated with his voice, then
those Powers are activated. (Don't do this to Black Bolt!) Both of these
eventualities are fairly rare, though, so no Modifier is given for them.
Even though sneezing also has a visual element, the target actually
sneezing is treated as a Special Effect.
It's a bit of a kludge, and it gets worse if you use this optional
mechanic (which I consider a Zero Modifier):
The Images becomes Instant, and goes off on the last Phase that the
individual is Flashed. The target may choose to resist the sneeze, and can
hold it off by attempting a CON Roll and an EGO Roll. If only one is made,
then the target must try both Rolls again at -1, the Flash continues, and
the Images get an extra +1 to PER (the sneeze is going to be louder); the
penalties to the Rolls and the bonus to the Images accumulate. If both are
successful, then the Flash ends immediately and the Images to not activate.
If both fail, then the Images go off.
I think this is adequate for purposes of comedy. :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:11:00 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Pepper in the Face
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> << I still want my effect to be the victem trapped in a sneezing fit until
> his/her constitution is able to overcome the problem. >>
>
> OC ("pepper spray") doesn't have this effect on people, I'm afraid. Cayenne
> pepper *powder* might, but not the spray stuff used for self defense.

Actually, I was proposing pepper (Black or Cayenne) thrown
powder-form to the face. With a bit of cinematographic embellishment, of
course.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:08:02 -0800
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On Thursday, February 19, 1998 12:31 PM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:


>
>> Good point. People keep claiming this "very common" level based on
>> the fact that they don't kill humans, and humans are very common.
That's
>> not how the disad points are figured, folks. The "very common"
should
>> indicate how often the disad is a hindrance. I doubt that many
heroes
>> walk around muttering to themselves, "Hmmm... I wonder if I should
kill
>> that one. Nope. How 'bout him? Nah. Her? Uh uh."
>
> If you make that the case, someone who has, say, desolid, always
>on with no attacks against the physical world can't possibly have any
CAK,
>as it doesn't matter. Is this the argument being made? It looks
that way
>from here.


No, he would have CAK Uncommon, to reflect that it is uncommon that it
could matter.

Suppose you have a doctor, a brilliant surgeon and pediatrician, who
sees children every day in his practice as a pediatrician. The fact
that those children all have livers does not make "Psych. Lim: Cannot
do/ fear of doing transplants" a Very Common, Total Psych Lim.
Similarly, my 7-year-old may have a CAK, but the fact that he meets
people every day doesn't change the fact that it is effectively no
Disadvantage at all, as he is never in a situation where it is a
disadvantage.

The level of a Disadvantage is directly dependent upon how often it is
a disadvantage. Not how often you meet a _single_ component of the
Disadvantage (i.e. "people"), but how often it is a Disadvantage (i.e.
"It would be to my distinct advantage to kill this person, but I
can't.")

Filksinger

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X-Sender: shelley@mail.mactyre.net
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:09:49 -0800
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <scm@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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At 04:14 AM 2/20/98 -0600, Michael Nunn wrote:
> Lets compare a couple of "real world" CAK'ings. A Amish person won't
>fight to defend themselves because it is against their religon. That would
>be a big CAK'ing, maybe 25pts. They can't be sent into a War zone because of
>there belief. When the draft was active they were only assigned non-combat
>MOS's.
> Next lets take a good good person from a diffrent section of the world.
>They too believe it is wrong to kill and against their religon, but not to
>the extent that the person above did lets say a 15 pointer. They get drafted
>and are put into a non-combat MOS.
> Both people are doing there job, and some how they wind up behind enemy
>lines. Suddenly they are attacked. The Amish hides and prepares to die.
>The other guy grabs up a gun and fights for his life. Does that mean his
>convictions changed? No, CAK has to be tempered with human natures "Fight
>or Flight reaction". Most any anaimal will fight when cornered man is no
>diffrent.

There is a basic assumption in this argument, regarding Anabaptists, which
needs to be addressed, and actually does have a (slight) bearing on the CAK
argument. Anabaptists -- Amish, Mennonites, Hutterites, etc. -- do not
kill because they have been commanded not to kill by the word of God, not
because they don't have the instincts. Anabaptists believe they belong to
the kingdom of God and must abide by the laws of the kingdom of God, not
the kingdom of man.

That said, I agree completely that Anabaptists have a code against killing
at a 25 point level, but there is also a code against engaging in any
violent acts whatsoever. So for that reason, we'd never see "The Brother,"
an Anabaptist superhero (and that would, of course, be worth far more
points than just a CAK). To Anabaptists, it is the vocation of the
government -- the rule of man -- to mete out justice, not the vocation of
those in living in the kingdom of God. (Essentially, the heart of
Anabaptist theology can be found in the Sermon on the Mount).

I'd like to bring up one additional point -- I don't think the Amish chap
would hide. Anabaptists were -- in this country -- beaten to death for
refusing to fight, though were it not for the liberal policies of the US
and later Canadian governments, Anabaptists would have been exterminated,
for the fact they seemed to offend every single European government. My
favorite story in _Martyr's Mirror_ is when (in Europe, several hundred
years ago) an Anabaptist was being chased. They both crossed an icy river,
but while the Anabaptist reached the other side without harm, his pursuer
fell through the ice. The Anabaptist returned and rescued his pursuer,
only to be later put to death for his trouble. That story, to me, sums up
what is a more complex set of motivations than simply CAK.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled mechanics debates. =)


Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
http://www.mactyre.net

A flung stone has always been a fool's favorite means of putting himself on
a level with the wise.
-- Edgar Pangborn

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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 17:26:49
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Redefining the Action sequence by adding variety.
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Instead of using the SPD chart, how about rolling 2d6, then subtracting
the character's SPD? The result (min 1 ie next segment) is the number
of segments/seconds before they have another action. If an active
participant has SPD 13-18 everyone rolls 3d6, 19-24 4d6 etc.

qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Stainless Steel Rat\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 98 17:35:41
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
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On 17 Feb 1998 18:19:58 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

>In the loosest sense, the "defense" against Entangle is being able to do
>lots of Body damage,

Please justify this.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:57:51 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Redefining the Action sequence by adding variety.
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On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, qts wrote:

> Instead of using the SPD chart, how about rolling 2d6, then subtracting
> the character's SPD? The result (min 1 ie next segment) is the number
> of segments/seconds before they have another action. If an active
> participant has SPD 13-18 everyone rolls 3d6, 19-24 4d6 etc.

Sounds fun. My players would hang me out to dry if I even thought about it
though. Another variant I've seen in someone's house rules (Wish I could
give credit) was that Speed=some percentage chance of acting this segment.
The GM would call a new segment and everyone would roll to see if they got
to act on that segment. The problem with both approaches is the potential
for harsh rolls. If your character at the start of combat doesn't get to
act, then gets 4 attacks leveled at him, finds himself dazed... pretty
harsh. Speed is a ecessary modeling element but I don't like the way it
affects *play balance*. I'm happy without speed, just sequencing.

Another approach is to have 6-phase turns, with a power, Speed, 20 points
to roll a die to see when you get two actions in a phase (at the end). If
you have 3 levels of Speed, and you roll 1,3,3, you still only get to act
twice on 3. You might take another approach and roll a die each phase to
see if you get an extra action... a 6 means you do. But you can only get
as many extra actions in a phase as you have levels of speed. Speedster
characters are then modeled using AoE, autofire, and running "tricks" that
can legitmately be monitored by AP scales. Likewise losing a phase each
turn is a 20 point disadvantage.


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Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 18:12:00 +0000
Subject: Re: Mitch's Dilemma
Priority: normal
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As it happens, I'm running a vampire in my supers game who's about to
turn one, possibly two, of the other characters into vampires. Her
transform is bought thusly:

Make Vampire: 3d6 Major Transform, culmulative, must force victim to
drink vampire blood (this is drawn from White Wolf'f Vampire: TM),
must kill victim with Blood Drain (sorta like a Trigger, but it's a
Limitation rather than an Advantage), Concentrate 1/2 DCV, No Range.

For your example I would make finding the "right" kind of victim a
Pschological Limitation, rather than a Limitation on the Power, since
having to drive the victim insane first, or having to find someone
with the right "morals" is more a reflection of the vampire's
personality than the actual Power itself. It's sorta along the lines
of the Nosferatu in V:TM--they generally only Embrace those they feel
are particlarly warped because they feel the Curse is too terrible
for anyone with any redeeming values. This is a cultural limitation
of the Nosferatu's, and has nothing to do with how their Powers work.
They could make anyone a Nosferatu if they felt like it.

As for "the supernatural just happening", that's the kind of Power
that can only be run by GM fiat. As a PC, you'd never be able to
pull something like that off. If you're the GM, you don't have to
justify how it happens. You simply tell the player it does, and move
along with the story before he has time to ask too many questions.
The question of *how* it happened can be the focus of a story or
adventure in itself!

My two cents.

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

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Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 18:15:03 +0000
Subject: Re: Hero plus sales by computer type
Priority: normal
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> Mark Arsenault said that Hero Games said that 1% of hero plus sales
> were to Mac users. How was this number determined, I bought USM and
> I don't recall ever identifying what platform it was for (I bought
> it on Dos/win disks, even though I'm using it on a Mac (because
> after all we can read their disks, and it was the only way it was
> available)). Mayhaps some percentage of win/dos sales are really in
> use on other platforms.
>

Simple enuf: based on the number of Win/Dos versions sold and number
of Mac versions sold. The numbers don't count Mac users who bought
PC versions, for obvious reasons. The point is: only 1% of sales
were made for the Mac versions. Ergo, demand for the Mac versions is
low. The reasons why are irrelevant. If Mac users are buying
Win/Dos versions and using them, then why make a Mac version if it's
not paying for itself?

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: New Powers / Wild Cards
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:41:00 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> > One of my friends has proposed starting a new campaign in which the existence
> > of super powers has just begun, perhaps similar to Wild Cards. I've seen
> > a couple of campaign accounts with this premise. I'm interested in any
> > ideas and/or anecdotes about this type of game.
>
> Scientists are very interested in newborn supers. So is the government,
> especially the military. The government might discover their presence
> first, and try to kidnap and impress into service and supers that show
> up... although a few always slip through the cracks (they could be the
> PCs). Scientists will want to experiment on supers to determine how their
> superpowers work, either for good or for ill... "Super Paranoia" might run
> rampant after a few powerful supers go on a rampage... considering the
> damage super-battles can cause, the initial reaction will most likely be
> coarse: people will think "all supers are a threat" rather than the more
> refined "there are some good and bad supers, after all they are people
> too." The X-titles make a big deal out of public prejudice, and are a good
> source on this issue...
>
There is the opposite take however.

The first Super's on the scene could ally themselves with a religious cause,
causing a sudden large increase in converts to that religion.
Imagine if Marvel's Thor actually did show up in our world with all
the powers to prove who he was.

Additionally, if an early super makes a very public save of something
or someone, it could go a very long way towards establishing the hero concept.
Popular culture gives us the comic-book hero archetype. Anyone who very
publicly tried and was able to live up to it for long enough could establish
the concept.
Particularly if he had a lead on any villian types. If the first
year or so of Super's was filled with heroic public acts, and after this did
the first Super go bad...

It's very highly dependant on what kind of people get the power first,
and what they do with it.

Imagine a world where a group of skin heads where the only supers for
the first six months. Or where the event causing powers happened on radioactive
land in an Indian reservation in the southwest. Causing almost all the super's
to be from poor native american families with a grudge against the federal
government.

Finding out who gets the power, where they get it, what they get it
from, how they get it, and when they get it in relation to each other and
current events will play a major factor in how the story unfolds.

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:46:57 -0800 (PST)
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> I now return you to your regularly scheduled mechanics debates. =)

That's for sure. :)

But at least philosophical standpoints and genre debates are finally
getting some weight in here. :)

Rook
__
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\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Pepper in the Face
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:13:14 -0800 (PST)
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> > << I still want my effect to be the victem trapped in a sneezing fit until
> > his/her constitution is able to overcome the problem. >>
> >
> > OC ("pepper spray") doesn't have this effect on people, I'm afraid. Cayenne
> > pepper *powder* might, but not the spray stuff used for self defense.
>
> Actually, I was proposing pepper (Black or Cayenne) thrown
> powder-form to the face. With a bit of cinematographic embellishment, of
> course.

Yeah, in a four color / Astro City style world; 'generic pepper'
would do this.
'Super Sneezing Powder'. :)

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 13:44:03 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Redefining the Action sequence by adding variety.
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On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, qts wrote:

> Instead of using the SPD chart, how about rolling 2d6, then subtracting
> the character's SPD? The result (min 1 ie next segment) is the number
> of segments/seconds before they have another action. If an active
> participant has SPD 13-18 everyone rolls 3d6, 19-24 4d6 etc.

...and if everyone has a SPD of 6 or less, roll 1d. It could work, except
for the amount of die-rolling it would introduce...

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 13:55:40 -0600 (CST)
Subject: New Powers / Wild Cards
Cc: jeffCFI@aol.com
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Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> wrote:
>
> If you can find it, GURPS Wildcards is a pretty good sourcebook on the
> universe (a bit out of date; as well as out of print, but...)
>
> My website (see below) has 65+ write-ups of assorted Wildcards characters,
> all tkaen from the GURPS book.
>
Fortunately, I do have both GURPS Wildcards & Aces Abroad, which I plan on
lending him. I hadn't been to your website in quite a while, visited it
yesterday and was very impressed, though I haven't gotten to your GURPS
Wildcards stuff yet.

I'm not sure whether he's planning on how close to Wildcards he's going with...

Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> wrote:
>
> I played in such a game, and although it's a well known campaign device
> now, the mentalism issues can get pretty sticky.

I'd like to hear more about your game.

Yeah, he mentioned 'mentalists' as a problem, though I don't know if he
was thinking of the legal aspects or not. I'm debating running a mentalist
myself. Thought earlier that a good villain would be a gangster type that
developed mental powers.

<other good suggestions clipped, but will be forwarded!>

> too." The X-titles make a big deal out of public prejudice, and are a good
> source on this issue...
>

We're familiar with the X-books. I always thought that discrimination against
'mutants' as opposed to ANY 'super-powered' person was over-emphasized.
However, this makes a lot more sense as the powered freaks initially appear..


Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes:
> >
> There is the opposite take however.

(good stuff deleted, but will be forwarded !)

>
> It's very highly dependant on what kind of people get the power first,
> and what they do with it.
>
> Finding out who gets the power, where they get it, what they get it
> from, how they get it, and when they get it in relation to each other and
> current events will play a major factor in how the story unfolds.
>

I agree and this made me think of a 'meta' point. Given the campaign premise,
what additional questions are needed to clarify the campaign ? In the sense
of the campaign background sheet ?

for example:

What kind of focus, if any, is there going to be on the 'triggering event' ?
i.e. Who caused it ? How it happened ? and stuff like that

Is the campaign expected to evolve towards a 'four color' affair, where the
characters are motivated to fight crime and evil-doers ? Or will it be more
realistic with the characters having differing motivations and attitudes
towards their powers ?

How realistic will it be ? Will the characters have to spend time and effort
seeing that the bad guys are prosecuted ?

Curt Hicks




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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:06:59 -0500
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: New Powers / Wild Cards
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> > One of my friends has proposed starting a new campaign in which the existence
> > of super powers has just begun, perhaps similar to Wild Cards. I've seen
> > a couple of campaign accounts with this premise. I'm interested in any
> > ideas and/or anecdotes about this type of game.
>

I ran a game similar to Wild Cards a while back. (Interestingly
enough, I hadn't read Wild Cards yet, but did so after a number
of people told me how much my game was like the series.) I didn't
deal with when powers first appeared, but the world was already
very changed by the existence of superhumans.

Superhumans in my world were the result of a fertility drug used
in the 1940's and 50's. The children born as a result of this drug
appeared normal, though it eventually came to light that there was
a slight risk of deformity for these babies. The major effects of the
drug didn't show up until the second generation, the grandchildren
of the women who originally took the drug, who had an extremely
high rate of major mutation. Many of these people were majorly
deformed, but many others had super powers.

When the supers first started showing up, they were quickly
snatched up by the government; reports of these superbeings were
generally grouped with UFO reports, Bigfoot, and other 1970's
fringe beliefs. Soon, though, the supers became more powerful than
any government. When no human politician was immune to superhuman
assassination, supers started assuming political power. Their
political power extended no farther than they could fight, however,
so the countries of the world started breaking up into city-states
ruled by superhuman warlords.

The superhumans were generally confined to affluent nations where
fertility drugs were likely to be used. But by the time the
campaign started people had figured out that the drug was responsible
for the production of supers, and there were breeding camps hidden
in various places around the world creating a large new generation
of superhumans.

I should mention that the mutation also tended to make the supers
mentally, um, extreme (a minimum of 50 points of Psych Lims, with
GM encouragement to be disfunctional.) The supers also had some
common abilities - a minimum of 30 STR, 20 DEX, a few points of
resistant defense, and an ability to detect one another.

Needless to say, the world was a mess. As one of my players
observed, their objective in the game was to try and restore some
sort of healthy order to the world, but the basic premise that
gave them their power made them poorly qualified to do so.

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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:08:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org, jeffCFI@aol.com
Subject: Re: New Powers / Wild Cards
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On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, Curt Hicks wrote:

> Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> wrote:
> >
> > If you can find it, GURPS Wildcards is a pretty good sourcebook on the
> > universe (a bit out of date; as well as out of print, but...)
> >
> > My website (see below) has 65+ write-ups of assorted Wildcards characters,
> > all tkaen from the GURPS book.
> >
> Fortunately, I do have both GURPS Wildcards & Aces Abroad, which I plan on
> lending him.

Is Aces Abroad any good? I never picked it up and I'm wondering if I
missed anything useful...

> I hadn't been to your website in quite a while, visited it
> yesterday and was very impressed, though I haven't gotten to your GURPS
> Wildcards stuff yet.

Thanks. Those 65 write-ups show what one can do when sitting at a *slow*
help desk.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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From: Rog <uraeus@mail3.bunt.com>
Subject: RE: New Powers / Wild Cards
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 21:46:35 +0100
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Brian Wong said:
The first Super's on the scene could ally themselves with a religious cause,
causing a sudden large increase in converts to that religion.
Imagine if Marvel's Thor actually did show up in our world with all the powers
to prove who he was.
Additionally, if an early super makes a very public save of something or someone,
it could go a very long way towards establishing the hero concept. Popular culture
gives us the comic-book hero archetype. Anyone who very publicly tried and was able
to live up to it for long enough could establish the concept.


I plan on doing something very similar to what Mr Wong suggested, I my next
campaign.

There would be supers and supergroups affliiated with most of the world's
religious establishments. Note that these religions may or may not approve
or sanction any or all of the supers associated with them.

Also, I plan on making neo-paganism/Wicca a new but fairly poerwful world
religion. This will be brought about by the act of a magick-using doctor which
saves the life of JFK after the Dallas assassination attempt. Both this act
and the fact that JFK, and eventually the whole Kennedy clan, subsequently
embraces the pagan faith, causes a massive global expansion of these beliefs.



Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 12:53:47 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: New Powers / Wild Cards
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

At 01:55 PM 2/20/1998 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote:
>> too." The X-titles make a big deal out of public prejudice, and are a good
>> source on this issue...
>
>We're familiar with the X-books. I always thought that discrimination
against
>'mutants' as opposed to ANY 'super-powered' person was over-emphasized.
>However, this makes a lot more sense as the powered freaks initially appear..

Actually, just about any bigotry/racism/discrimination gets overblown at
one stage or another, whether literary or real. The anti-mutant thing
started out with a scare about genetic supplantation of humans by mutants,
"your children will grow up to be freaks," and that kind of thing, and
eventually grew into an us vs them mentality (on both sides, really).
IMC there's some dealing with an anti-mutant issue, but it's fairly
minor (at least in the United States and most other Western nations)
compared to prejudice based on race, gender, religion, or psychological
makeup; it actually falls somewhere between disability and physical size in
frequency of occurrence, even if the typical severity is close to
psychological makeup and the mentality is closer to race.
How that works in another campaign is, of course, up to the GM.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Redefining the Action sequence by adding variety.
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 12:53:51 -0800
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> Instead of using the SPD chart, how about rolling 2d6, then
subtracting
> the character's SPD? The result (min 1 ie next segment) is the number
> of segments/seconds before they have another action. If an active
> participant has SPD 13-18 everyone rolls 3d6, 19-24 4d6 etc.

>...and if everyone has a SPD of 6 or less, roll 1d. It could work,
except
>for the amount of die-rolling it would introduce...

The trouble is that, with appropriate die rolls, some characters might
never get an action, or those with a low speed might outperform those
with a very high speed.

Instead, try using poker chips in a bag. Each character takes a
particular color, and puts a number of chips equal to his speed in the
bag. As chips are pulled out, characters get actions. And when the bags
are empty, the round is over, since everyone has had their speed number
of actions.

Dave Mattingly
http://www.geocities.com/soho/5953

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Redefining the Action sequence by adding variety.
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 12:55:29 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>
> Instead of using the SPD chart, how about rolling 2d6, then subtracting
> the character's SPD? The result (min 1 ie next segment) is the number
> of segments/seconds before they have another action. If an active
> participant has SPD 13-18 everyone rolls 3d6, 19-24 4d6 etc.
>
This is similar to the way it is done in villians and vigilantes.
In that system at the beginning of the turn everyone rolls 1d10 and adds
their Dex. You move on that number, and then on a phase 15 later, etc. until
you hit phase 1.

So two people one with Dex 40, the other Dex 22. The dex 40 Person
rolls a 6. The Dex 22 rolls a 10.

So that round of combat is as follows:

A 46 31 16 1
B 33 18 3

This method is quicker than Heroes, but has a problem when you get a character
who has a rool of say 67, versus a guy with a roll of say, 20. All the multiple
actions happen at the begining.

Now, the problem with your idea would be that 2d6 gives a bell curve
so people above speed 6 or so would all get similar results to each other.

Reversing your formula to SPd-2d6 causes the problem in reverse.

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 13:02:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel R Palacio <dandan@cats.ucsc.edu>
X-Sender: dandan@ese.UCSC.EDU
Subject: Another Question
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org


Another thing I am working on is the complete overhaul of the
campaign world and the unification of six previous campaigns. Anyway, one
of the NPC hero teams I am creating is a sentai team which protects Japan
from alien menaces. I cannot use the Zen Team for two reasons: I am
declaring a moratorium on published characters, and as good as they are,
they are lacking a few key elements (a giant robot and a finishing
attack).

My question is: How would you create one of those finishing
attacks where all five (Rangers/G-force members) have to be together to
fire off the (energy blast/tornado) that destroys the (monster/agents) at
the end?

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: empulse@usa.net (Unverified)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 13:32:58 -0800
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com>
Subject: Re: Another Question
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

<x-rich>At 01:02 PM 2/20/98 -0800, Daniel R Palacio wrote:

>

> My question is: How would you create one of those finishing

>attacks where all five (Rangers/G-force members) have to be together to

>fire off the (energy blast/tornado) that destroys the (monster/agents)
at

>the end?


One of the ideas I've been toying with is to pick one character as
essential to the maneuver and have her buy the initial power. Purchace it
at a very low active cost and even throw a limitation on it that says the
power can't be used unless it is in conjunction with the other members of
the team.


Next, have everyone else on the team buy an Aid, with the appropriate
limitations so that it can only be used to aid the power the first team
member purchanced. You can throw on the various limitations you usually
see in this sort of power, including Gestures, Incantations, Foci,
etc...


The end result can produce a very powerful attack, but only if every
member of the team successfully participates in the finishing maneuver.
If you want to restrict the manuever so it only works if
<italic>every</italic> member of the team pitches in, that limitation
would be on the first character's power, otherwise, fewer team mates
participating in the ritual would give a weaker end result.


This is one take on this type power, I'm sure there are many other ways
to do it.


-Nic




+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

| naneiden@iswest.com |

| Justice, Like Lightning, Thunderbolts! |

| http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/thunder.html |

| Costumed Heroines |

| http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/index.html |

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+


</x-rich>
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: bermuda.io.com: traveler owned process doing -bs
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 16:00:38 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Another Question
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, Daniel R Palacio wrote:

>
> Another thing I am working on is the complete overhaul of the
> campaign world and the unification of six previous campaigns. Anyway, one
> of the NPC hero teams I am creating is a sentai team which protects Japan
> from alien menaces. I cannot use the Zen Team for two reasons: I am
> declaring a moratorium on published characters, and as good as they are,
> they are lacking a few key elements (a giant robot and a finishing
> attack).
>
> My question is: How would you create one of those finishing
> attacks where all five (Rangers/G-force members) have to be together to
> fire off the (energy blast/tornado) that destroys the (monster/agents) at
> the end?

One way to do it would be to design the power seperately, then divide the
cost amongst the characters; include a -1/2 L akin to OIF that defines the
circumstances that have to be met in order for the team to be able to use
the power. When the power is used, divide the END cost amongst the
characters...

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 16:10:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Aces Abroad
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> wrote:

>
> Is Aces Abroad any good? I never picked it up and I'm wondering if I
> missed anything useful...
>

Parts of it were pretty good and parts so-so. It has been a while since I
looked at it. I had seriously considered running it as a mini-campaign,
though converting to Hero.

Curt Hicks

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 16:19:38 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Another Question
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, Daniel R Palacio wrote:

> My question is: How would you create one of those finishing
> attacks where all five (Rangers/G-force members) have to be together to
> fire off the (energy blast/tornado) that destroys the (monster/agents) at
> the end?

Hmm. I can think of a couple of ways:

Primary Ranger buys Big Attack with 'Big Nuke' limitation (see below) and
other 4 rangers buy Aid, no range. Trouble with this is that one
character always gets to do the rolling for the to-hit, etc.

Another option would be to design the attack you want, split it up into X
parts (X being the number of people required) and have each Ranger buy it
(probably with the 'Big Nuke' limitations below). Then, you apply a -1/2
limitation per person past the first that is required - 2 people get a
-1/2, 5 people would get a -2. Technically, this will be 5 separate
attacks, but with all the limitations stacked on them, they'll be pretty
hefty, and since this would count as 'coordinatign actions' the stun will
be pretty tremendous.

You might also want to add in the limitation 'Only as a last resort' -
this could be modeled various ways, including a modified 'Requires Skill
Roll' (probably based on EGO, with bonuses based on how much the Rangers
have been beat on), a psych lim (Must try weaker attacks before using
stronger ones).

In general, 'Big Nuke' powers from Sentai and Anime shows have some or all
of the following limits: Full Phase, Gestures, Incantations (shouting
name of attack is popular), Charges or Increased END (or both!)


J

"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 14:24:20 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: EMail ettiquette (was: Another Question)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

---Nic Neidenbach wrote:
{a message which his mail program mime encoded}

Just a note (primarily) to the newer members of this list:

While I realize the urge to make use of such text formatting niceties
as italics and bold face, please resist said urge as this causes your
mail program to use some format other than plain ascii which then gets
Mime (or UU) encoded and sent as an attachment.

People use various mail program which all support different 8-but
encoding methods. If the method supported by their mail program is
not compatible with the method your mail program uses they will not be
able to read your message.

Thank you.

-=>John D.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 17:03:04 -0600 (CST)
Subject: anti-mutant prejudice
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

Bob Greenwade writes:


> >We're familiar with the X-books. I always thought that discrimination
> against
> >'mutants' as opposed to ANY 'super-powered' person was over-emphasized.
> >However, this makes a lot more sense as the powered freaks initially appear..
>
> Actually, just about any bigotry/racism/discrimination gets overblown at
> one stage or another, whether literary or real. The anti-mutant thing
> started out with a scare about genetic supplantation of humans by mutants,
> "your children will grow up to be freaks," and that kind of thing, and
> eventually grew into an us vs them mentality (on both sides, really).

My initial comment was referring to the inherent discrepancy in the
X-books where powered 'mutants' are hated and feared whereas powered 'non-
mutants' are NOT. In the sense that most of the 'mutie-haters' really had
no way to distinguish between 'mutants' and 'non-mutants'.

I agree with your point about the fear of 'mutants' genetically supplanting
normals. This makes more sense to me as justification for anti-mutant
prejudice.

> IMC there's some dealing with an anti-mutant issue, but it's fairly
> minor (at least in the United States and most other Western nations)

I never had specific anti-MUTANT forces / organizations in my game, as it
seemed too derivative of the X Men books. I had toyed with the idea of
introducing an organization 'Halcyon', which wanted to return the world to
the 'golden era' before the existence of super-humans of ALL types.
(Of course, 'Halcyon' would be sponsored by wealthy robber baron types,
who basically wanted to return the status quo to **their** huge stacks
of money and other resources as the ONLY super power. Kind of a Lex
Luthor type of thing.)

Curt

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Pepper in the Face
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 20 Feb 1998 18:28:08 -0500
Lines: 27
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

TRG> Actually, I was proposing pepper (Black or Cayenne) thrown
TRG> powder-form to the face. With a bit of cinematographic embellishment, of
TRG> course.

What I described is black pepper, but without the cinematic embellishment.
If you want that it is going to cost a lot more: the "Mind Control, single
command (sneeze), based on CON" that I mentioned being too costly for the
desired effect (black pepper).

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBNO4Rhp6VRH7BJMxHAQEE7QP8D8U/XGe3vWM1yykSvh8u5B8CSd62/+7v
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 17:35:19 -0600
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
Subject: Re: Hero plus sales by computer type
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>If Mac users are buying Win/Dos versions and using them, then why make
>a Mac version if it's not paying for itself?

What Mac version?

Donald

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: bermuda.io.com: traveler owned process doing -bs
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 18:06:26 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: anti-mutant prejudice
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, Curt Hicks wrote:

> I agree with your point about the fear of 'mutants' genetically
> supplanting normals. This makes more sense to me as justification for
> anti-mutant prejudice.

Of course, once it starts drifting from "They're going to replace us" to
"they're dangerous because of their powers", then the distinction between
mutant and meta becomes less believable.

> > IMC there's some dealing with an anti-mutant issue, but it's fairly
> > minor (at least in the United States and most other Western nations)
>
> I never had specific anti-MUTANT forces / organizations in my game, as
> it seemed too derivative of the X Men books. I had toyed with the idea
> of introducing an organization 'Halcyon', which wanted to return the
> world to the 'golden era' before the existence of super-humans of ALL
> types. (Of course, 'Halcyon' would be sponsored by wealthy robber baron
> types, who basically wanted to return the status quo to **their** huge
> stacks of money and other resources as the ONLY super power. Kind of a
> Lex Luthor type of thing.)

Sort of like the organization put together by Batman and Lex Luthor in
"Kingdom Come"...

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 18:19:44 -0600 (CST)
Subject: anti-mutant prejudice
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> wrote:

> >
> > I never had specific anti-MUTANT forces / organizations in my game, as
> > it seemed too derivative of the X Men books. I had toyed with the idea
> > of introducing an organization 'Halcyon', which wanted to return the
> > world to the 'golden era' before the existence of super-humans of ALL
> > types. (Of course, 'Halcyon' would be sponsored by wealthy robber baron
> > types, who basically wanted to return the status quo to **their** huge
> > stacks of money and other resources as the ONLY super power. Kind of a
> > Lex Luthor type of thing.)
>
> Sort of like the organization put together by Batman and Lex Luthor in
> "Kingdom Come"...
>
Umm, I'm not really sure. That seemed more like a "desperation do something
before we're overwhelmed" thing, rather than a "if we got rid of those super
beings, we could do whatever we wanted"...

Curt

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 18:31:12 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Pepper in the Face
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org


> TRG> Actually, I was proposing pepper (Black or Cayenne) thrown
> TRG> powder-form to the face. With a bit of cinematographic embellishment, of
> TRG> course.
>
> What I described is black pepper, but without the cinematic embellishment.
> If you want that it is going to cost a lot more: the "Mind Control, single
> command (sneeze), based on CON" that I mentioned being too costly for the
> desired effect (black pepper).

I don't know. When I've been hit with peppar, I've usually been
sneezing too much to actually act. The way it seems to work is very close
to Entangle. As of right now you could do it Based on ECV, Mental power
based on CON, but I want to create a new advantage instead.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 16:39:50 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Another Question
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

At 01:02 PM 2/20/1998 -0800, Daniel R Palacio wrote:
>
> Another thing I am working on is the complete overhaul of the
>campaign world and the unification of six previous campaigns. Anyway, one
>of the NPC hero teams I am creating is a sentai team which protects Japan
>from alien menaces. I cannot use the Zen Team for two reasons: I am
>declaring a moratorium on published characters, and as good as they are,
>they are lacking a few key elements (a giant robot and a finishing
>attack).
>
> My question is: How would you create one of those finishing
>attacks where all five (Rangers/G-force members) have to be together to
>fire off the (energy blast/tornado) that destroys the (monster/agents) at
>the end?

I'd just say -1 for the first pair, and an additional -1/2 for each
after that -- in this case, a total Limitation bonus of -2 1/2 for five.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 16:43:44 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: anti-mutant prejudice
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

At 05:03 PM 2/20/1998 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote:
>Bob Greenwade writes:
>> >We're familiar with the X-books. I always thought that discrimination
>> against
>> >'mutants' as opposed to ANY 'super-powered' person was over-emphasized.
>> >However, this makes a lot more sense as the powered freaks initially
appear..
>>
>> Actually, just about any bigotry/racism/discrimination gets overblown at
>> one stage or another, whether literary or real. The anti-mutant thing
>> started out with a scare about genetic supplantation of humans by mutants,
>> "your children will grow up to be freaks," and that kind of thing, and
>> eventually grew into an us vs them mentality (on both sides, really).
>
>My initial comment was referring to the inherent discrepancy in the
>X-books where powered 'mutants' are hated and feared whereas powered 'non-
>mutants' are NOT. In the sense that most of the 'mutie-haters' really had
>no way to distinguish between 'mutants' and 'non-mutants'.

This is the only part of what I've seen that defies logic, at least as
far as I can follow it. Why, I wonder, don't folks start assuming
Spider-Man is a mutant, or Captain Marvel?

>I agree with your point about the fear of 'mutants' genetically supplanting
>normals. This makes more sense to me as justification for anti-mutant
>prejudice.

I think it was even actually said at some point, though I don't recall
where, when, or by whom.

>> IMC there's some dealing with an anti-mutant issue, but it's fairly
>> minor (at least in the United States and most other Western nations)
>
>I never had specific anti-MUTANT forces / organizations in my game, as it
>seemed too derivative of the X Men books. I had toyed with the idea of
>introducing an organization 'Halcyon', which wanted to return the world to
>the 'golden era' before the existence of super-humans of ALL types.
>(Of course, 'Halcyon' would be sponsored by wealthy robber baron types,
>who basically wanted to return the status quo to **their** huge stacks
>of money and other resources as the ONLY super power. Kind of a Lex
>Luthor type of thing.)

I do use Genocide, with the above justification. Of course, I've broken
it down a little, and (if the Powers That Be don't cut it) a new Minuteman
robot will be in TUSV, with modifications based on suggestions folks on the
list made a couple of years ago on how the Minutemen could have been done
better.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 22:06:06 -0500 (EST)
From: THE MAD HARLEQUIN <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Re: Mitch's Dilemma
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, Theala Sildorian wrote:

> For your example I would make finding the "right" kind of victim a
> Pschological Limitation, rather than a Limitation on the Power, since
> having to drive the victim insane first, or having to find someone
> with the right "morals" is more a reflection of the vampire's
> personality than the actual Power itself. It's sorta along the lines

A certain paradigm must exist in order for the person to become a
'creature of the darkness.' It's not so much a physical transformation as
it is a psychological one. In this campagin, most 'normals' can't see
past their bandwith of reality. They are locked into their own personal
paradigms, and while Joe Kindred could beat the living daylights out of
Frankie Normal, drain away his blood, and give Frankie a transfusion of
his own blood, Frankie Normal might just still stay dead... all because
he didn't understand that dark things existed, couldn't cope with the
ferocity, and didn't have those traits that would make him an acceptable
member of supernature.
Individuals can change of their own accord, as well. A man who
gives into and relishes his darker feral desires may become a monster.
A man trapped in a cabin beneath an avalance with his friends who then
systematically slaughters each one and eats of their flesh may transform
as well. A man who trains his creative mind and subconcious through
visualization and meditation can tap into energies that lie outside the
normal bandwiths, and will it into 'magick.' The insane often see more of
the specturm than they should... with dangerous results resounding from
the outer emphermal and invisible world manifesting in the material.
Games like 'Kult' and 'Call of Cthulu' both have the "feel" I'm
trying to capture...
...and there was a move about a man who transformed into a wolf
due to his psychology. 'The Addiction' style vampire are more like the
kind you'd meet than 'The Vampire Lestat.'

Off the subject, anyone know of any supernatural/horror games
that are out there? X-Files conspiracy, bad B movie, splatter, gothic, or
just plain bizzare? I'm trying to build up my library (or at least an
wish list/biblography).

-Jason


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 19:37:48 -0800
From: mcallahan <mcallahan@home.com>
Reply-To: mcallahan@home.com
Subject: Re: Hero plus sales by computer type
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>Simple enuf: based on the number of Win/Dos versions sold and number
>of Mac versions sold. The numbers don't count Mac users who bought
>PC versions, for obvious reasons. The point is: only 1% of sales
>were made for the Mac versions. Ergo, demand for the Mac versions is
>low. The reasons why are irrelevant. If Mac users are buying
>Win/Dos versions and using them, then why make a Mac version if it's
>not paying for itself?

Hero Plus books are formatted as PDF files (portable document format),
so they can be used on any platform that has a PDF reader (Acrobat,
which is free), so for Hero Plus E-Books there are no different
versions, the same PDF file can be read on many systems. Macs being the
more compatible computer (can you detect my bias) have the capacity to
read win/dos formated disks built in to the operating system, thus we
can use win/dos E-books with no difficulty. Also early on Hero didn't
have a Mac formated version of anything available. All this simply
states that the sales of E-books can't directly be coralated to
potential sales of an actual program (which can't be used cross-platform
with out difficulty).

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-8,10-11,14-16
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 23:08:57 EST
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>BG> Would he have trouble using it against a mindless, undead
>zombie? I
>BG> doubt it, but cultural standards do vary.
>
>Here is the problem: I am not sure whether or not the original
>poster's
>"zombies" really are mindless critters. His language was confusing at
>best, so I hedged my bets by remaining unspecific.

The "zombies" I had in mind are the real thing -- corpses with enough
magic added to move them around.

I put the qualifier in the original post because I've also seen "zombies"
in fiction who were living beings pumped full of EGO-destroying drugs.
In that case, a CAK should run as normal, IMHO.

Leah

_____________________________________________________________________
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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 22:20:42 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Mitch's Dilemma
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> Off the subject, anyone know of any supernatural/horror games
>that are out there? X-Files conspiracy, bad B movie, splatter, gothic, or
>just plain bizzare? I'm trying to build up my library (or at least an
>wish list/biblography).

You already know about Call of Cthulhu...Pagan Publishing has a licensed
CoC product called "Delta Green" that's very good. All the PCs are assumed
to be government agents (any branch of the government is legitimate, Post
Office, Forestry Service, whatever) or a civilian contact of the government
types, brought in because of some special talent or knowlegde you have.
Delta Green exists to keep the knowledge of all those nasty Cthuloid
beasties -- and the beasts themselves -- from the public.

"Bureau 13" from Tri-Tac Systems is one I was initially happy to see,
because the paperback series by Nick Pollotta was such great fun. I wound
up being disappointed with some of the game mechanics, and we did a few
conversions and played "Bureau 13 HERO" instead.

"Conspiracy X" looked pretty good, as well. It's probably the one closest
to the X-Files in tone, and one thing I liked about it is that at the start
of the campaign the players are expected to sit down and design not only
their characters, but their headquarters, too. Dive right in to base
construction on Day One!

"Web of Shadows" was advertised some time back as a genre book for "Webs!"
a multi-genre game system that is a *total* waste of time as far as I can
tell from briefly scanning the slim core rule book. (Maybe you can't tell
a book by it's cover, but the
Table of Contents can be very revealing.) The system of currency will be
familiar to AD&D players: CP, SP, EP, GP and PP -- that's copper, silver,
electrum, gold, and platinum pieces to you non-TSR types -- with bronze
pieces, lead pieces, steel pieces and shells thrown in so maybe no one
would notice. Since "Webs!" is trying to be all things to all gamers,
prices for some supplies and equipment are given in dollars and cents,
rather than the fantasy coins listed above; other, "futuristic" prices are
given in "credits" (how original!) that are apparently worth about $3.00
each. The treatment of various gemstones is another thing that seems to
have been lifted directly from the
AD&D game system, but though it's their major influence, it wasn't their
only one. The rules for purchasing skills might have been borrowed from the
HERO System, but more probably from GURPS. One thing that might be original
to Webs! is the Hit Location Tables for combat, and they stink. There is a
25% chance of any hit being a blow to the head. You have a 50% chance of
dying from any hit to a vital area. I don't think the head counts as a
vital area for these purposes, though, so maybe you're safe.

Damon


------------------------
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents.
-- H.P. Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

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Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 23:35:55 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: anti-mutant prejudice
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> >My initial comment was referring to the inherent discrepancy in the
> >X-books where powered 'mutants' are hated and feared whereas powered 'non-
> >mutants' are NOT. In the sense that most of the 'mutie-haters' really had
> >no way to distinguish between 'mutants' and 'non-mutants'.
>
> This is the only part of what I've seen that defies logic, at least as
> far as I can follow it. Why, I wonder, don't folks start assuming
> Spider-Man is a mutant, or Captain Marvel?

For the same reason that other seperate lines don't have a whole
lot of coheisiveness. They are seperate storylines, even though the
universe is singular.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 23:37:26 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Mitch's Dilemma
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> A certain paradigm must exist in order for the person to become a
> 'creature of the darkness.' It's not so much a physical transformation as
> it is a psychological one. In this campagin, most 'normals' can't see
> past their bandwith of reality. They are locked into their own personal
> paradigms, and while Joe Kindred could beat the living daylights out of
> Frankie Normal, drain away his blood, and give Frankie a transfusion of
> his own blood, Frankie Normal might just still stay dead... all because
> he didn't understand that dark things existed, couldn't cope with the
> ferocity, and didn't have those traits that would make him an acceptable
> member of supernature.

Says who? That's your conception of your campaign. Don't tell
everyone else what can and can't happen.

> Off the subject, anyone know of any supernatural/horror games
> that are out there? X-Files conspiracy, bad B movie, splatter, gothic, or
> just plain bizzare? I'm trying to build up my library (or at least an
> wish list/biblography).

How about "It came from the Late Show"?


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 00:59:19 EST
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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In a message dated 98-02-20 09:24:33 EST, you write:

> However, lets say our desolid can't hurt anyone hero is an activist,
> crusading to stop all killing in the world.
> That's a CAK that would be worth points.
>
Agreed. That will definitely affect him and cause him untold problems.

'Lynx

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From: Firelynx16@aol.com
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 01:12:53 EST
Subject: Re: Redefining the Action sequence by adding variety.
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In a message dated 98-02-20 15:20:52 EST, you write:

> Sounds fun. My players would hang me out to dry if I even thought about it
> though. Another variant I've seen in someone's house rules (Wish I could
> give credit) was that Speed=some percentage chance of acting this segment.
> The GM would call a new segment and everyone would roll to see if they got
> to act on that segment. The problem with both approaches is the potential
> for harsh rolls. If your character at the start of combat doesn't get to
> act, then gets 4 attacks leveled at him, finds himself dazed... pretty
> harsh. Speed is a ecessary modeling element but I don't like the way it
> affects *play balance*. I'm happy without speed, just sequencing.

I've seen something similar to this (on this list?) where at the beginning of
each Segment, everyone rolled a d12, and if they rolled at or under their
Speed, they got to act on that Segment. If they didn't, they added one to
their roll, and next Segment, everyone did it again. If they hadn't made
their roll by the time their Segment they normally would have acted on came
up, they would go ahead and act on that Segment. I think that once they did
make their roll, they couldn't roll again until they passed their normal
Segment to act. So take a Speed 4 character. On Seg1, they would need to
roll a 4- to act. Failing that, on Seg 2 they'd need a 5- to act. Failing
that, they'd automatically go on Seg 3, which is their normal Seg to act on.
If they had made their roll on Seg 1 or Seg 2, they wouldn't attempt to go
again until Seg 4.

Hope this helps,
'Lynx

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Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 01:31:03 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: mlnunn@blue.net
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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>The level of a Disadvantage is directly dependent upon how often it is
>a disadvantage. Not how often you meet a _single_ component of the
>Disadvantage (i.e. "people"), but how often it is a Disadvantage (i.e.
>"It would be to my distinct advantage to kill this person, but I
>can't.")

That is the best description yet... Always remember, a disadvantage should
limit the character in some way.

In my game if a disadvantage doesn't give the GM something to use in the
game it's not a disadvantge.

Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist our seldom updated web site...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm

"You have never lived until you have almost died.
And for those who fight for it,
life has a flavor the protected never know"
- anonymous

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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: Hero Creator for Creator Workshop <OFF TOPIC>
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 01:52:41 -0600
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>From David Fair:

>On 2/19/98 7:40 AM Mike Whitney (mwhitney@swbell.net) Said:
>
>>I wouldn't call it an insult, but rather a financial reality. The Mac has
>>slipped to a 3% market share. Developing software for it would not be
>>financially smart, especially for a company as small as Hero. And, since
>>they can run Windows software in emulation, it's sort of a mute point.
>
>That a very interesting figure, where did you get it? The current listing
>of computers (personal computers) _in use_ today, compiled by Dataquest,
>puts Mac OS systems at just over 26 million, Windows 95 at slightly over
>30 million, windows 3.1/dos systems at over 118 million an other OS's
>(os/2, Amiga, Etc) at just over 4 million. Doing the math gives a market
>share of just a hair over 22%.


The term "Market Share" refers to sales, not computers in existance or use.
BTW, using your numbers my Pentium computed the number of Mac systems in
use at 15% (rounding to the nearest whole percent.) I know the Pentium has
had a math problem in the past but mine is supposed to be a working one. Is
it possible that your Mac has an FPU error. ;-)

Alan

"To be or not to be? That is the question. I am what I am that is the
answer."

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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 01:55:30 -0600
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Rat wrote:

>A "believes in the sanctity of life" disad has a different focus. The
>average anti-abortion terrorist has this disad at a particularly extreme
>level, but he does not have a CAK.


A terrorist who kills with a disad, "Believes in the Sanctity of Life." I
don't think so Rat.

Alan

"For the crime of killing, we the jury sentence you to death."

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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: Pepper in the Face
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 01:59:01 -0600
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> OC ("pepper spray") doesn't have this effect on people, I'm afraid.
Cayenne
>pepper *powder* might, but not the spray stuff used for self defense.
>
> Mark @ GRG


I have been hit in the face with a significant amount of powdered pepper.
Sneezing is the last thing happening to you. Crying, yelling, coughing,
followed by chasing and beating the person who blew it in your face is more
like what occured next.

Alan

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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com>
Subject: Re: Mitch's Dilemma
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 02:01:53 -0600
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Bob Greenwade wrote:

>Similarly, in the TV version of the Highlander, an Immortal who dies a
>violent death does actually die to all appearances, and stays down for some
>time (how long depends on how severe the injuries are.

How long actually seems to depend on nothing more than whatever is most
convenient to the story line.

Alan

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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 08:30:09
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
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On Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:16:12 -0800, Filksinger wrote:

><snip>
>>>>> Try a Comic Book example: Cyclops can shoot down incomming
>>>>>attacks with his Eye Beams. They don't go anyware, they just
>>>>>disintigrate.
>>>>
>>>>That's not MD, that's a RKA.
>>>
>>>
>>>No, that's a SFX for Missile Deflection. Consider that you can use
>it
>>>to stop arrows, thrown knives, possibly (depending upon SFX and what
>>>you pay for) EB and bullets. None of these are normally stopable via
>>>RKA. The fact that you could shoot it down in theory doesn't make it
>>>RKA. Using that reasoning, a Missile Deflection with the SFX of
>"Block
>>>the attack with hands" would just be a Strike, and Damage Shield
>would
>>>stop any attack which consisted of a missile that would be destroyed
>>>by the Damage Shield ("My 8d6 EB, Damage Shield stopped your arrows,
>>>because it destroyed them!"). If this occurs, it is Missile
>>>Deflection.
>>
>>I don't read comics that much - not at all now - so forgive me if I
>>err, but I recall an episode where Cyclops shot down a cruise(?)
>>missile, and that was what I was basing it on. If you're generalising
>>it, then I still say that MD is not the way - if the attack goes
>>nowhere, then you're Dispelling it.
>
>
>Only if you require that attacks stopped by Missile Deflection have to
>go somewhere.

Which I do - if the attack doesn't go anywhere, it's being *stopped*,
not deflected.

> If you don't, then Missile Deflection works just fine.
>Keep in mind that a Missile Deflection in a crowded place could be a
>horrible thing, as innocent bystanders get mowed down by attacks you
>deflected.

That's exactly my reasoning.


>>>>>Also, for example, a character that catches items shot at him/her.
>>>>
>>>>I include this in arrow cutting - the objects caught go somewhere,
>>>even
>>>>if it is 'on the ground'.
>>>
>>>
>>>Yes, but there is a significant difference between "arrows fly off
>in
>>>all directions" and "arrows are caught and dropped to the ground".
>>
>>Not really - the arrows are there for someone to tread on them.
>
>
>Which is a _very_ significant difference. I would much rather have the
>arrows on the ground than flying through the air; they are _much_ less
>dangerous.

True. but they're still there, 'active'.

>Additionally, your argument concerning the hazards of arrows on the
>ground only applies to sharp or otherwise dangerous objects. The
>difference between bullets which fly off in odd directions and ones
>which fall to the ground is _enormous_. The dropped to the ground
>bullets are _much_ safer.

True.

>>>>>Or someone who is actually hit by them, but isn't at all affected.
>>>>
>>>>That's Damage Reduction oa a SFX on Armour.
>>>
>>>
>>>Can be, but doesn't have to be.
>>>
>>>Additionally, you could have a character who performs Missile
>>>Deflection with the SFX "Attack is teleported into another
>dimension",
>>>or "Attack is disintegrated". The first sends it _somewhere_, but it
>>>hardly counts if you deflect it properly.
>>
>>A good GM will bring in the residents of that dimension...
>
>
>Not necessarily. I very well might, but any number of concepts I might
>allow would bypass that option. It could be a pocket dimension created
>for each attack individually. It could go directly into deep space, or
>a one-way gate could lead to the surface of a star. It could be a
>dimension carefully selected in advance as completely empty by a
>competent dimension traveller. It could even be a dimension carefully
>selected for each attack, so that bullets go to a universe where
>everyone is ameboid and likes to eat lead and other metals, while
>lasers are transfered to light-based beings who consider coherent
>light "candy".

If the PC hasn't purchased Transdimensional, it's a no-no.

>>> The second is viable, and is
>>>not a RKA. Otherwise, I would be immune to any EB or RKA that had a
>>>SFX of "a missile that is destroyed by passing through this Damage
>>>Shield, AE attack, Explosion, etc.", so long as I properly applied
>the
>>>destructive power.
>>
>>Then go for Dispel
>
>
>Why? I don't see why Dispel is necessarily superior. In fact, for some
>of these SFX, it is enormously _inferior_.

<snip>

I agree - sometimes even Force Wall or Force Field might be better.


> Are you really going to more than triple the
>cost of my Missile Deflection, just because the attacks disappear?

Yes, because having the attack go *nowhere* is a significant advantage.

>Additionally, your entire argument is based upon the assumption that
>the incoming attack can be deflected somewhere.

No! I see that you've completely misunderstood me. It's not 'can be
deflected' but 'does get deflected'. The former is a form of
*reflection*. It is an inbuilt disadbantage of MD that the attack goes
somewhere.

> Cap's shield bounces
>some things, but many energy attacks are absorbed.

If an attack is absorbed, it's not being deflected; ergo we use
something else, like FF.

> A laser should not bounce, for example.

Why not? Point a torch at any shiny object: some of the light bounces.
Ever noticed how you can help illuminate something by putting a sheet
of white paper nearby?

qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 08:42:35
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Redefining the Action sequence by adding variety.
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On Fri, 20 Feb 1998 13:44:03 -0600 (CST), Dataweaver wrote:

>On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, qts wrote:
>
>> Instead of using the SPD chart, how about rolling 2d6, then subtracting
>> the character's SPD? The result (min 1 ie next segment) is the number
>> of segments/seconds before they have another action. If an active
>> participant has SPD 13-18 everyone rolls 3d6, 19-24 4d6 etc.
>
>...and if everyone has a SPD of 6 or less, roll 1d.

I thought about this, and didn't really come to a conclusion either
way.

> It could work, except for the amount of die-rolling it would introduce...

It's not so different to AD&D's initiative system.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 08:46:43
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Redefining the Action sequence by adding variety.
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On Fri, 20 Feb 1998 12:55:29 -0800 (PST), Brian Wong wrote:

>>
>> Instead of using the SPD chart, how about rolling 2d6, then subtracting
>> the character's SPD? The result (min 1 ie next segment) is the number
>> of segments/seconds before they have another action. If an active
>> participant has SPD 13-18 everyone rolls 3d6, 19-24 4d6 etc.
>>
> This is similar to the way it is done in villians and vigilantes.
>In that system at the beginning of the turn everyone rolls 1d10 and adds
>their Dex. You move on that number, and then on a phase 15 later, etc. until
>you hit phase 1.

My inspiration was really D&D.

>Now, the problem with your idea would be that 2d6 gives a bell curve
>so people above speed 6 or so would all get similar results to each other.

Perhaps I should have mentioned that that's an advantage! But not much
of one: a SPD 7 guy might still have to wait 5 segments; a SPD 9
monster might still have to wait 3 segments. The uncertainty of it!


qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Rog <uraeus@mail3.bunt.com>
Subject: supernatural/horror games( Was RE: Mitch's Dilemma)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 09:50:49 +0100
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Like you said: Kult, CoC.....also ConspiracyX, Nephilim, Dark Conspiracy,
The Whispering Vault, Over The Edge, Immortal, Nightspawn (aka Nightbane)
-Rog

----------
From: THE MAD HARLEQUIN [SMTP:ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu]

Off the subject, anyone know of any supernatural/horror games
that are out there? X-Files conspiracy, bad B movie, splatter, gothic, or
just plain bizzare? I'm trying to build up my library (or at least an
wish list/biblography).

-Jason



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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Firelynx16@aol.com\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 08:54:30
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Redefining the Action sequence by adding variety.
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On Sat, 21 Feb 1998 01:12:53 EST, Firelynx16@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 98-02-20 15:20:52 EST, you write:
>
>> Sounds fun. My players would hang me out to dry if I even thought about it
>> though. Another variant I've seen in someone's house rules (Wish I could
>> give credit) was that Speed=some percentage chance of acting this segment.
>> The GM would call a new segment and everyone would roll to see if they got
>> to act on that segment. The problem with both approaches is the potential
>> for harsh rolls. If your character at the start of combat doesn't get to
>> act, then gets 4 attacks leveled at him, finds himself dazed... pretty
>> harsh. Speed is a ecessary modeling element but I don't like the way it
>> affects *play balance*. I'm happy without speed, just sequencing.
>
>I've seen something similar to this (on this list?) where at the beginning of
>each Segment, everyone rolled a d12, and if they rolled at or under their
>Speed, they got to act on that Segment.

It was in AC. I was trying to do away with the D12; not everyone has
them, you know! Further, my method also rids Hero of the SPD 12 cap.


qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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X-Sender: jrc@pop1.nai.net
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 07:37:27 -0500
From: "Joe Claffey Jr." <jrc@mail1.nai.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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"Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> wrote,
>Rat wrote:
>>A "believes in the sanctity of life" disad has a different focus. The
>>average anti-abortion terrorist has this disad at a particularly extreme
>>level, but he does not have a CAK.
>
>A terrorist who kills with a disad, "Believes in the Sanctity of Life." I
>don't think so Rat.

It's possible that he has PsL: Believes in the Sanctity of Life at a
Moderate level, and PsL: Hates Abortions at the Total level.

Joe Claffey | "In the end, everything is a gag."
jrc@ct1.nai.net | - Charlie Chaplin


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X-Sender: nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 09:45:02 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Redefining the Action sequence by adding variety.
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At 08:54 AM 2/21/98, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>
>It was in AC. I was trying to do away with the D12; not everyone has
>them, you know! Further, my method also rids Hero of the SPD 12 cap.
>

My hunch is that your method might get cumbersome for the GM in large agent
battles; that's a lot of dice to roll & results to keep track of.
Nevertheless, I find it an interesting idea.

I've never given much recognition to the SPD 12 cap. Pre-4th edition I
don't think the situation was ever addressed, so I didn't hesitate to
create (NPC) speedsters with SPD's over 12; I simply treated them as having
SPD 12 plus the SPD over 12, acting twice (or more) on the phases of their
excess SPD. Since then, I've refined it as Geoff Speare once suggested, so
that SPD 13-24 characters act on these phases once on their DEX, once on
half their DEX. SPD 25-36 characters, should the GM feel compelled to
create such beings, would act on their DEX, 2/3 their DEX, and 1/3 their
DEX. SPD 37-48 (!) characters would act by quarter DEX, and so on.

I really don't think the SPD cap is very consistent with most Hero
mechanics; no other characteristic has an absolute maximum. As a player
time and balance of power issue, a Speed greater than 12 is a problem, but
for that matter so are Speeds of 10-12 in a game where the average is
around 5 or 6. The cap seems pretty arbitrary and unnecessarily confining
to high level campaigns and to GM's who want to have an incredibly fast NPC
around.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 21 Feb 1998 10:01:52 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "F" == Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> writes:

F> HSR... Psychological Limitation.... pg 123

F> "A character with this Disadvantage has a mental quirk regarding a given
F> thing or situation. The player defines HOW OFTEN (Situation is) the
F> limitation occurs and HOW IMPARING (Intensity) it is. The character
F> gets points according to the Psychological Limitation table."

BBB, Psychological Limitation, pg 124:

"A Psychological Limitation must have some application to the campaign,
otherwise it's not worth any bonus."

I do not disagree that different charcters may have different values for
what would be considered the same thing. But by the same token, a beat cop
and a shut-in are *NOT* in the same campaign as two PCs in the same
campaign would be. To the shut-in, "people" are as uncommon to him as orcs
are to the cop; for him, a CAK is a nigh-frivolous Disadavantage.

To wit, Batman and Superman exist in the same universe, but they are not
characters in the same campaign. What might be common for Batman might be
uncommon for Superman. Batman and Robin are characters in the same
campaign. With a few possible exceptions, what is common for Batman is
common for Robin.

And by the by, the BBB defines the standard total commitment against
killing at 20 points: Common, Total, with the implication that "people" is
a "common" category.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Pepper in the Face
Mail-Copies-To: never
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

TRG> I don't know. When I've been hit with peppar, I've usually been
TRG> sneezing too much to actually act.

In one sense, it is because your CV is so pathetic that any actions you
perform will likely fail. You can fail around all you like; your Speed is
largely unaffected. That is why I modeled the base effect with Flash. The
rest is special effects.

TRG> The way it seems to work is very close to Entangle. As of right now
TRG> you could do it Based on ECV, Mental power based on CON, but I want to
TRG> create a new advantage instead.

And I do not want you to create this advantage because the effect is
sufficiently different from how Entangle works that it is really a
different power entirely. Remember, model the SFX with powers instead of
attempting to define SFX that will use certain powers. "Mind Control,
Single Command, Based on CON" will do exactly what you want without
resorting to hacking things.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
Mail-Copies-To: never
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:

q> On 17 Feb 1998 18:19:58 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>> In the loosest sense, the "defense" against Entangle is being able to do
>> lots of Body damage,

q> Please justify this.

Every "attack" in Champions has a corresponding "defense". The game
mechanic that negates the effects of Entangles is doing Body damage to
them. To wit, how much Body damage in excess of the Entangle's DEF+Body
has a direct bearing on what the Entangled character can do next.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Hello and Question
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>>>>> "DRP" == Daniel R Palacio <dandan@cats.ucsc.edu> writes:

DRP> Well, about two issues ago, we discovered that he doesn't need to
DRP> be holding the rod in order to use his powers. How would I reflect
DRP> this in game terms? Would it be an OAF (Personal, probably breakable)
DRP> with the indirect (+3/4) advantage put on the multipower? Would it be
DRP> an OIF with indirect? or would it just be a special effect?

A Focus can and will sometimes be taken away from the character that owns
it. This never happens with the Cosmic Rod, so it is probably not a Focus.

It is, however, a slick way to acquire a high level of Indirect on many of
its powers. An expensive ability, but what do you expect from one of the
most powerful artifacts in the DC universe? :)

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X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 09:58:56 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Gestalt character nightmare
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The discussion of the G-Force/Power Rangers style combined attack reminded
me of a bizarre character one of my players tried to put together several
years ago. He wound up abandoning the idea, not because he couldn't figure
out how to make it work, but because he couldn't decide which variation on
this concept he liked most:

An each case, the character is actually a set of identical quadruplets who
can physically merge their bodies, with appropriate levels of Growth and
Density Increase as a result.

Variation #1: Any two of them can merge, or any three of them, or all four.
With each merging, the combined character adds either one level of Growth
*or* one level of Density Increase, to a maximum of three levels of either
one.

Variation #2: In addition to the above, the combined character has some
additional power -- Telepathy, I think? -- with a number of active points
determined by the number of quads merged (AP doubled with every merge after
the first).

Variation #3: There was a whole list of powers the combined character could
get, depending on which combination of quads merged.

A&B, A&C, A&D, B&C, B&D, or C&D would result in one of six 20-AP Powers.

ABC, ABD, ACD, or BCD would result in one of four 40-AP Powers, instead of
the above.

ABCD would result in a single 80-AP Power, instead of any of the lesser ones.

I think I covered all the possible combinations there. A, B, C and D
separately had no Powers individually (other than the ability to merge with
each other, and maybe a latent psi ability that was too small to measure
until they merged, in the case of Variant #2 with Telepathy.) Again,
actually putting the character together finally became a non-issue because
the player couldn't nail down his concept long enough for me to decide
whether to even allow it.

His next concept involved a natural mage (innate spell-like powers, all
minor) whose selection of powers was very narrow *at any one time* and
depended on things like the day of the week, time of day, phase of the
moon, etc. He had a whole cycle of powers worked out, none of which was
usable for more than about 12 hours at a time. That character was never
written up, either.

Damon


|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/ |
| Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines |
| Worthy Causes -- Computer -- Atlanta -- All Human Knowledge |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 08:26:52 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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At 10:01 AM 2/21/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "F" == Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> writes:
>
>F> HSR... Psychological Limitation.... pg 123
>
>F> "A character with this Disadvantage has a mental quirk regarding a given
>F> thing or situation. The player defines HOW OFTEN (Situation is) the
>F> limitation occurs and HOW IMPARING (Intensity) it is. The character
>F> gets points according to the Psychological Limitation table."
>
>BBB, Psychological Limitation, pg 124:
>
>"A Psychological Limitation must have some application to the campaign,
>otherwise it's not worth any bonus."
>
>I do not disagree that different charcters may have different values for
>what would be considered the same thing. But by the same token, a beat cop
>and a shut-in are *NOT* in the same campaign as two PCs in the same
>campaign would be. To the shut-in, "people" are as uncommon to him as orcs
>are to the cop; for him, a CAK is a nigh-frivolous Disadavantage.
>
>To wit, Batman and Superman exist in the same universe, but they are not
>characters in the same campaign. What might be common for Batman might be
>uncommon for Superman. Batman and Robin are characters in the same
>campaign. With a few possible exceptions, what is common for Batman is
>common for Robin.
>
>And by the by, the BBB defines the standard total commitment against
>killing at 20 points: Common, Total, with the implication that "people" is
>a "common" category.

Actually, to agree with someone else's point, the situation in question
is not "people," but "opportunities to kill people," or (probably even more
accurately) "cases where killing a person or people would be tactically
advantageous." A CAK would arguably be worth more in Fantasy Hero or
Justice Inc. than in Champions or Star Hero, but more in Champions or Star
Hero than in (say) Mystery Hero or Sports Hero.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 08:29:06 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged'
advantage!)
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At 10:24 AM 2/21/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
>
>q> On 17 Feb 1998 18:19:58 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>> In the loosest sense, the "defense" against Entangle is being able to do
>>> lots of Body damage,
>
>q> Please justify this.
>
>Every "attack" in Champions has a corresponding "defense". The game
>mechanic that negates the effects of Entangles is doing Body damage to
>them. To wit, how much Body damage in excess of the Entangle's DEF+Body
>has a direct bearing on what the Entangled character can do next.

It should probably be emphasized that Rat originally qualified this
with, "In the loosest sense," which I think was meant to imply that it
doesn't work the way other defenses do in many ways (for example, you can't
Harden your ability to do damage against an Armor Piercing Entangle).
Given that, I'd tend to agree.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 08:32:47 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Mitch's Dilemma
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 02:01 AM 2/21/1998 -0600, Remnant wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>>Similarly, in the TV version of the Highlander, an Immortal who dies a
>>violent death does actually die to all appearances, and stays down for some
>>time (how long depends on how severe the injuries are.
>
>How long actually seems to depend on nothing more than whatever is most
>convenient to the story line.

Probably true. I'm a sporadic watcher (uh, make that *viewer*) at best;
the above was just my impression from the three or four Immortal "deaths"
I've seen.
---
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Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 11:34:08 -0500
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Hello and Question
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Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> wrote:


A Focus can and will sometimes be taken away from the character that owns
it. This never happens with the Cosmic Rod, so it is probably not a Focus.

It is, however, a slick way to acquire a high level of Indirect on many of
its powers. An expensive ability, but what do you expect from one of the
most powerful artifacts in the DC universe? :)

******************

Please excuse my lack of quote indents - I'm stuck with a really
cheesy mail utility for the time being.

Jack has had the Cosmic Rod taken away on at least one occasion.
The one that comes to mind is the battle shortly before Dr. Pip
blew up a building Jack was in, trapping him until he was rescued
by Solomon Grundy. I forget all the details, but I think Jack was
fighting Copperhead, got knocked unconscious, woke up and realized
that the building was about to blow up and he had no idea where
the rod was.

I would definitely call it a focus.

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 08:34:09 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Pepper in the Face
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 01:59 AM 2/21/1998 -0600, Remnant wrote:
>> OC ("pepper spray") doesn't have this effect on people, I'm afraid.
>Cayenne
>>pepper *powder* might, but not the spray stuff used for self defense.
>>
>> Mark @ GRG
>
>
>I have been hit in the face with a significant amount of powdered pepper.
>Sneezing is the last thing happening to you. Crying, yelling, coughing,
>followed by chasing and beating the person who blew it in your face is more
>like what occured next.

The same thing happened to me. I think we're going with the cinematic
version of the stuff, though (Three Stooges/Looney Toons).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 12:09:58 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Subject: Re: Mitch's Dilemma
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> > it is a psychological one. In this campagin, most 'normals' can't see

Oops, missed that above line. That's what I get for posting when
I'm that tired and without my glasses.

> Says who? That's your conception of your campaign. Don't tell
> everyone else what can and can't happen.




-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 12:12:32 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
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> >A "believes in the sanctity of life" disad has a different focus. The
> >average anti-abortion terrorist has this disad at a particularly extreme
> >level, but he does not have a CAK.
>
> A terrorist who kills with a disad, "Believes in the Sanctity of Life." I
> don't think so Rat.

Why not? To protect that life he thinks is sacred, he will kill.
It might be a bit hypocritical, but it works fine w/o a CAK.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 12:18:48 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
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> >Only if you require that attacks stopped by Missile Deflection have to
> >go somewhere.
>
> Which I do - if the attack doesn't go anywhere, it's being *stopped*,
> not deflected.

This is obviously a problem of you reading too much into the name
of the power. This is Hero, remember. Powers merely build SFX. MD stops
attacks, plain and simple. They don't have to go anywhere. Requiring as
much needlessly hinders the system to fit your warped conceptions.

> >Which is a _very_ significant difference. I would much rather have the
> >arrows on the ground than flying through the air; they are _much_ less
> >dangerous.
>
> True. but they're still there, 'active'.

Not even. They are not going to do their full 1 or 2 d6 or
whatever. You might get a 1 pip Killing for stepping on them.

> >Not necessarily. I very well might, but any number of concepts I might
> >allow would bypass that option. It could be a pocket dimension created
> >for each attack individually. It could go directly into deep space, or
> >a one-way gate could lead to the surface of a star. It could be a
> >dimension carefully selected in advance as completely empty by a
> >competent dimension traveller. It could even be a dimension carefully
> >selected for each attack, so that bullets go to a universe where
> >everyone is ameboid and likes to eat lead and other metals, while
> >lasers are transfered to light-based beings who consider coherent
> >light "candy".
>
> If the PC hasn't purchased Transdimensional, it's a no-no.

Why? This will do nothing about attacks taking place in another
dimension or cross-dimensions. There is no need for TransD. You again
are reading to much into power and modifier names. Get your mind off the
MSH mindset where things go with their names. We're working with a
different type of system.

> > Are you really going to more than triple the
> >cost of my Missile Deflection, just because the attacks disappear?
>
> Yes, because having the attack go *nowhere* is a significant advantage.

Not at all. A book example is catching the attack. It goes
_nowhere_. That is a part of the power, plain and simple. No advantage
necessary.

> No! I see that you've completely misunderstood me. It's not 'can be
> deflected' but 'does get deflected'. The former is a form of
> *reflection*. It is an inbuilt disadbantage of MD that the attack goes
> somewhere.

No, not actually.

> > Cap's shield bounces
> >some things, but many energy attacks are absorbed.
>
> If an attack is absorbed, it's not being deflected; ergo we use
> something else, like FF.

Deflection works just fine, especially since it already includes
the need to take an action to use it.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 12:21:36 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: CAK and the undead
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> And by the by, the BBB defines the standard total commitment against
> killing at 20 points: Common, Total, with the implication that "people" is
> a "common" category.

Fine, but I'll have to disagree. IMC, People can quite ably
constitute "very common" for heroes who will be almost exclusively
fighting against fellow humans. I'll give VC.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 18:24:05 +0000
Subject: Re: Mitch's Dilemma
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> A certain paradigm must exist in order for the person to become a
> 'creature of the darkness.' It's not so much a physical
> transformation as it is a psychological one. In this campagin, most
> 'normals' can't see past their bandwith of reality. They are locked
> into their own personal paradigms, and while Joe Kindred could beat
> the living daylights out of Frankie Normal, drain away his blood,
> and give Frankie a transfusion of his own blood, Frankie Normal
> might just still stay dead... all because he didn't understand that
> dark things existed, couldn't cope with the ferocity, and didn't
> have those traits that would make him an acceptable member of
> supernature.

So again, it's more of a Disadvantage than a Limitation on the Power.
Exactly the sort of thing I was thinking myself. :)


> Individuals can change of their own accord, as well. A man who
> gives into and relishes his darker feral desires may become a
> monster

[snip]

Nod.

>
> Off the subject, anyone know of any supernatural/horror games
> that are out there? X-Files conspiracy, bad B movie, splatter,
> gothic, or just plain bizzare? I'm trying to build up my library
> (or at least an wish list/biblography).

I can think of several: Men in Black: the RPG; Ravenloft (excellent
stuff actually); In Nominae; GURPS: Illuminanti, Black Ops,
Warehouse 23; the whole White Wolf World of Darkness (Vampire,
Wereworlf, Mummy, Mage, Wraith, and Changling are all excellent);
White Wolf's Aeon (now called Trinity) is an esper vs superheros gone
insane, but is interesting and promises deep conspiracies in it's
"Darkness Revealed" motif; and new for the Cthulhu series is Delta
Green--an excellent sourcebook for the X files style game that
seemlessly ties together the UFO phenomenom and the horrors of HP
Lovecraft--excellently written. I couldn't put it down. There's a
supplement called Pandemonium which is a collection of weird news
bits for Cthulhu, and Keeper's Compendium, which is another Cthulhu
supplement dedicated to weirdness in the Lovecraft universe. You
might also look at Deadlands--the Weird West RPG. Fantastically
written and illustrated. The book the Quick and the Dead is
especially useful.

My two cents

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 12:24:25 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Pepper in the Face
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> TRG> I don't know. When I've been hit with peppar, I've usually been
> TRG> sneezing too much to actually act.
>
> In one sense, it is because your CV is so pathetic that any actions you
> perform will likely fail. You can fail around all you like; your Speed is
> largely unaffected. That is why I modeled the base effect with Flash. The
> rest is special effects.

Yes, but weren't you one who hated things like Flash, doesn't
actually affect sense?

> TRG> you could do it Based on ECV, Mental power based on CON, but I want to
> TRG> create a new advantage instead.
>
> And I do not want you to create this advantage because the effect is
> sufficiently different from how Entangle works that it is really a
> different power entirely. Remember, model the SFX with powers instead of

I was, Rat. You're the one that wants to keep this in his own
little conception of What Hero Should Be.

> attempting to define SFX that will use certain powers. "Mind Control,
> Single Command, Based on CON" will do exactly what you want without
> resorting to hacking things.

Not really. This is a situation without a gradual breakout, which
is modeled quite well with Entangle. As Mental Entangles have been
re-introduced, they seem a much better "base" mechanic than the Mind
Control, which is a simple Ego roll to get out, and which will have a
difficulty level modified by situation.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 18:41:39
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Redefining the Action sequence by adding variety.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On Sat, 21 Feb 1998 09:45:02 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:

>At 08:54 AM 2/21/98, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>It was in AC. I was trying to do away with the D12; not everyone has
>>them, you know! Further, my method also rids Hero of the SPD 12 cap.
>>
>
>My hunch is that your method might get cumbersome for the GM in large agent
>battles; that's a lot of dice to roll & results to keep track of.
>Nevertheless, I find it an interesting idea.

I agree, so use one die roll for all agents; but then, I'm primarily
thinking of a FH game where agents aren't an issue.

>I've never given much recognition to the SPD 12 cap. Pre-4th edition I
>don't think the situation was ever addressed, so I didn't hesitate to
>create (NPC) speedsters with SPD's over 12; I simply treated them as having
>SPD 12 plus the SPD over 12, acting twice (or more) on the phases of their
>excess SPD. Since then, I've refined it as Geoff Speare once suggested, so
>that SPD 13-24 characters act on these phases once on their DEX, once on
>half their DEX. SPD 25-36 characters, should the GM feel compelled to
>create such beings, would act on their DEX, 2/3 their DEX, and 1/3 their
>DEX. SPD 37-48 (!) characters would act by quarter DEX, and so on.

Interesting concept.

>I really don't think the SPD cap is very consistent with most Hero
>mechanics; no other characteristic has an absolute maximum. As a player
>time and balance of power issue, a Speed greater than 12 is a problem, but
>for that matter so are Speeds of 10-12 in a game where the average is
>around 5 or 6. The cap seems pretty arbitrary and unnecessarily confining
>to high level campaigns and to GM's who want to have an incredibly fast NPC
>around.

I cant speak for SuperHero games, but SPD 12 or more fits nicely with
some monsters, avoiding kludges like Autofire and AOE.

qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 18:42:00 +0000
Subject: Re: Hero plus sales by computer type
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> Hero Plus books are formatted as PDF files (portable document
> format), so they can be used on any platform that has a PDF reader
> (Acrobat, which is free), so for Hero Plus E-Books there are no
> different versions, the same PDF file can be read on many systems.
> Macs being the more compatible computer (can you detect my bias)
> have the capacity to read win/dos formated disks built in to the
> operating system, thus we can use win/dos E-books with no
> difficulty. Also early on Hero didn't have a Mac formated version of
> anything available. All this simply states that the sales of E-books
> can't directly be coralated to potential sales of an actual program
> (which can't be used cross-platform with out difficulty).
>

I'm aware that Hero Plus are PDF files. Hero makes two versions
available because the compression formats for Mac and Win are
different: Mac uses Stuffit while PC uses Zip. But your argument
doesn't hold water. Why? Because of the lack of amaetur programming
for the platform. There are a number of programs to assist GMs in
running Hero for the PC. There's NOTHING for the Mac, other than
spreadsheet templates. If Mac hobbyists can't be bothered to create
anything for their own platform, why should a commercial programmer
put for the effort for something that WON'T sell!

I can't tell you how many times I've had this discussion with Mac
fanatics. When I point these things out, I get responses like "well,
I'm a programmer--I'll start working on it myself!" Two years later,
I have YET to see anything freeware/shareware for the Mac that's Hero
related. I've seen lots of PC programs--some good, some bad, some
so-so. So pardon me for being cynical. If Mac users want it so bad,
they're going to have to PROVE that the effort is worth the
investment to the Hero partners. Otherwise, they can forget it--the
Hero Guru's aren't going to waste their time--and the fact that they
are all Mac lovers themselves ought to tell the other Mac users
something. Why would the Hero partners not make a program for their
own platform? Because it's truly not feasible!

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Stainless Steel Rat\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 18:45:13
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Entangle BOECV (was Re: In support of 'Advantaged' advantage!)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On 21 Feb 1998 10:24:39 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "q" == qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> writes:
>
>q> On 17 Feb 1998 18:19:58 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>> In the loosest sense, the "defense" against Entangle is being able to do
>>> lots of Body damage,
>
>q> Please justify this.
>
>Every "attack" in Champions has a corresponding "defense".

Agreed.

> The game
>mechanic that negates the effects of Entangles is doing Body damage to
>them.

The manner in which the BODY is applied is important. Unless the GM
decides something different

qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Tim R. Gilberg\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 98 18:57:08
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Modify Deflection? (was Re: a question about deflection)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Sat, 21 Feb 1998 12:18:48 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

>
>> >Only if you require that attacks stopped by Missile Deflection have to
>> >go somewhere.
>>
>> Which I do - if the attack doesn't go anywhere, it's being *stopped*,
>> not deflected.
>
> This is obviously a problem of you reading too much into the name
>of the power. This is Hero, remember. Powers merely build SFX. MD stops
>attacks, plain and simple.

Not quite: it stops them affecting the character. A nice difference.

> They don't have to go anywhere. Requiring as
>much needlessly hinders the system to fit your warped conceptions.

Not so. Sometimes it doesn't matter where the attack goes, sometimes it
does.

>
>> >Which is a _very_ significant difference. I would much rather have the
>> >arrows on the ground than flying through the air; they are _much_ less
>> >dangerous.
>>
>> True. but they're still there, 'active'.
>
>Not even. They are not going to do their full 1 or 2 d6 or
>whatever. You might get a 1 pip Killing for stepping on them.

Tell that to the guy who has stepped upon a poisoned arrow.

>> >Not necessarily. I very well might, but any number of concepts I might
>> >allow would bypass that option. It could be a pocket dimension created
>> >for each attack individually. It could go directly into deep space, or
>> >a one-way gate could lead to the surface of a star. It could be a
>> >dimension carefully selected in advance as completely empty by a
>> >competent dimension traveller. It could even be a dimension carefully
>> >selected for each attack, so that bullets go to a universe where
>> >everyone is ameboid and likes to eat lead and other metals, while
>> >lasers are transfered to light-based beings who consider coherent
>> >light "candy".
>>
>> If the PC hasn't purchased Transdimensional, it's a no-no.
>
>Why? This will do nothing about attacks taking place in another
>dimension or cross-dimensions. There is no need for TransD. You again
>are reading to much into power and modifier names. Get your mind off the
>MSH mindset where things go with their names. We're working with a
>different type of system.

MSH? What's that? As I said before, think SFX.

>> > Are you really going to more than triple the
>> >cost of my Missile Deflection, just because the attacks disappear?
>>
>> Yes, because having the attack go *nowhere* is a significant advantage.
>
> Not at all. A book example is catching the attack.

Not in my book (p 81) - that comes under Reflection. Anyway, think SFX:
some attacks cannot be caught.

>> No! I see that you've completely misunderstood me. It's not 'can be
>> deflected' but 'does get deflected'. The former is a form of
>> *reflection*. It is an inbuilt disadvantage of MD that the attack goes
>> somewhere.
>
> No, not actually.

Err, yes. Think of it like this: Sir Ervan raises his shield (of
Missile Deflection bought at the 20pt level) against the evil wizard's
icebolt; the bolt is deflected, but instead hits the girl on the
sacraficial altar.

>> > Cap's shield bounces
>> >some things, but many energy attacks are absorbed.
>>
>> If an attack is absorbed, it's not being deflected; ergo we use
>> something else, like FF.
>
>Deflection works just fine, especially since it already includes
>the need to take an action to use it.

I disagree - see above.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 14:07:20 -0500 (EST)
From: THE MAD HARLEQUIN <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Re: Mitch's Dilemma
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org


On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> Says who? That's your conception of your campaign. Don't tell
> everyone else what can and can't happen.

I wasn't attempting to tell everyone else what can and can't
happen. I was just clairfying the mechanics of supernature in this
particular campagin that I am running. I am still a bit hazy on how to
work the 'Transform' that occurs, since certain individuals who lack a
certain ammout of psychological factors are immune. Also, the Mitch
scenerio, where he 'dies' and comes back, or the cannibal scenerio, where
he consumes human flesh and becomes a monster are both based on their
psychology. Perhaps it's all just a Radiation Accident, vampires
included?

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 13:28:28 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Mitch's Dilemma
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org


> I wasn't attempting to tell everyone else what can and can't
> happen. I was just clairfying the mechanics of supernature in this
> particular campagin that I am running. I am still a bit hazy on how to

And see my later apology. I though you were generalizing for all
campaigns.

> work the 'Transform' that occurs, since certain individuals who lack a
> certain ammout of psychological factors are immune. Also, the Mitch
> scenerio, where he 'dies' and comes back, or the cannibal scenerio, where
> he consumes human flesh and becomes a monster are both based on their
> psychology. Perhaps it's all just a Radiation Accident, vampires
> included?

Possibly the best bet, though extra points may have to be handed
out. There was a debate a while back right here on the very subject of
Vampire procreation. I was of the mind that it shouldn't be paid for any
more than regular human intercourse should be paid for. You'll need
some sort of power to model sucking out someone's blood, but the giving of
blood and creation of a vampire should be a free ability.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Rog <uraeus@mail3.bunt.com>
Subject: RE: Gestalt character nightmare
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 20:44:26 +0100
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

This sounds like a very interesting character idea. Do you happen to have
any examples of the powers and their cyclic nature?

Rog

----------
From: Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin [SMTP:griffin@txdirect.net]
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 1998 4:59 PM

His next concept involved a natural mage (innate spell-like powers, all
minor) whose selection of powers was very narrow *at any one time* and
depended on things like the day of the week, time of day, phase of the
moon, etc. He had a whole cycle of powers worked out, none of which was
usable for more than about 12 hours at a time. That character was never
written up, either.

Damon


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: traveler owned process doing -bs
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 16:06:58 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Redefining the Action sequence by adding variety.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On Sat, 21 Feb 1998, qts wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Feb 1998 13:44:03 -0600 (CST), Dataweaver wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, qts wrote:
> >
> >> Instead of using the SPD chart, how about rolling 2d6, then subtracting
> >> the character's SPD? The result (min 1 ie next segment) is the number
> >> of segments/seconds before they have another action. If an active
> >> participant has SPD 13-18 everyone rolls 3d6, 19-24 4d6 etc.
> >
> >...and if everyone has a SPD of 6 or less, roll 1d.
>
> I thought about this, and didn't really come to a conclusion either
> way.
>
> > It could work, except for the amount of die-rolling it would introduce...
>
> It's not so different to AD&D's initiative system.

IMHO, that says very little... I have a substantial dose of contempt for
AD&D, and find the game quite unplayable, if the group actually uses the
game mechanics as presented; so comparing an approach to AD&D doesn't
exactly come across as favorable.

The major problems are: 1. inconsistent rules (which doesn't apply to this
comparison), and 2. an excessive amount of die-rolling (which does); I am
of the opinion that die rolls should be used sparingly, and should be
included in a rule only as a last resort.

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: CYBV15A@prodigy.com (MR JOHN BUTLER)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 17:48:44, -0500
Subject: Red October BBS
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

I was wondering how to see the red october BBS, i tried it at the web
site but i was told my service didn't use that connection,, is
there a bbs number, i just want to see the old site befor it goes for
good,

thank you

John B

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Reply-To: "Scott R.C. Smith" <srcsmith@frontiernet.net>
From: "Scott R.C. Smith" <srcsmith@frontiernet.net>
Subject: Re: Redefining the Action sequence by adding variety.
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 17:54:00 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
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To: champ-l@omg.org

What we do with SPD is use it for a SPD+1d6 roll to determine
initiative every round. Those who want extra phases buy SPD above 12,
and appy the SPD chart as to when they get their "extra" action.

-S-

Scott R.C. Smith
srcsmith@frontiernet.net
Website: Starburst Headquarters
(http://www.frontiernet.net/~srcsmith)
A Circle Of Heroes member


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Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 17:04:55 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Redefining the Action sequence by adding variety.
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On Sat, 21 Feb 1998, "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> "champ-l@omg.org" wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Feb 1998 09:45:02 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
> >I've never given much recognition to the SPD 12 cap. Pre-4th edition I
> >don't think the situation was ever addressed, so I didn't hesitate to
> >create (NPC) speedsters with SPD's over 12; I simply treated them as having
> >SPD 12 plus the SPD over 12, acting twice (or more) on the phases of their
> >excess SPD. Since then, I've refined it as Geoff Speare once suggested, so
> >that SPD 13-24 characters act on these phases once on their DEX, once on
> >half their DEX. SPD 25-36 characters, should the GM feel compelled to
> >create such beings, would act on their DEX, 2/3 their DEX, and 1/3 their
> >DEX. SPD 37-48 (!) characters would act by quarter DEX, and so on.
>
> Interesting concept.

An idea I toyed with some time ago was an expandable Action chart:

Segment
SPD 1 2 3 4 5
0 0 0 0 0 0
1 0 0 1 0 0
2 0 1 0 1 0
3 0 1 1 1 0
4 1 1 0 1 1

If you have a SPD over 4, you get one action every segment for every 5
full points of SPD you have, plus an amount based on the left-over amount;
so if you have SPD 17, you would get 3 actions per segment (one each for
5, 10, and 15), plus one more action on segments 2 and 4. On the
character sheet, I would write:

+----+---------------+
| | Segment |
|SPD | 1 2 3 4 5 |
+----+---------------+
| 17 | 3 4 3 4 3 |
+----+---------------+

...and be done with it.

What happens when two characters act on the same segment, but have a
different number of actions? Break the segment up into 5 subsegments, and
treat each character as if he had a SPD score equal to the number of
actions allotted for that segment. So SPD 17 vs. SPD 11 (2/2/3/2/2),
acting on Segment 2, would break segment 2 up into 5 subsegments and
distribute their actions amongst the subsegments as if they were SPD 4 and
2, respectively. This breakup can be cascaded down indefinitely by
breaking subsegments up into five parts etc., if neccessary. (OTOH, one
break-up would suffice for SPDs up to 25 - which would cost a minimum of
230 points, directly or indirectly - while two break-ups could handle SPDs
of up to 125, which would be virtually impossible to purchase in any
reasonably common campaign - 1230 pts...)

> >I really don't think the SPD cap is very consistent with most Hero
> >mechanics; no other characteristic has an absolute maximum. As a player
> >time and balance of power issue, a Speed greater than 12 is a problem, but
> >for that matter so are Speeds of 10-12 in a game where the average is
> >around 5 or 6. The cap seems pretty arbitrary and unnecessarily confining
> >to high level campaigns and to GM's who want to have an incredibly fast NPC
> >around.
>
> I cant speak for SuperHero games, but SPD 12 or more fits nicely with
> some monsters, avoiding kludges like Autofire and AOE.

Agreed!

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 18:28:02 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Mitch's Dilemma
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 02:07 PM 2/21/98 -0500, THE MAD HARLEQUIN wrote:
> I wasn't attempting to tell everyone else what can and can't
>happen. I was just clairfying the mechanics of supernature in this
>particular campagin that I am running. I am still a bit hazy on how to
>work the 'Transform' that occurs, since certain individuals who lack a
>certain ammout of psychological factors are immune.

I don't understand your problem with this. The power Transform only works
against whatever you say it works against. Declare that the Transform in
question targets people with a dark view of the world. Therefore, if you
use the power against a "good" person, NOTHING HAPPENS. This is not a
limitation. It is the definition of this particular Transformation.

> Also, the Mitch scenerio, where he 'dies' and comes back,

Sounds like a plot device. Don't model with powers.

>or the cannibal scenerio, where
>he consumes human flesh and becomes a monster are both based on their
>psychology.

This one is Radiation Accident. Or a multiform with some weird power pools
attached to it.

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From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: message to 5th edition staff
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 17:37:44 CST
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After a problem last night, I'd like to ask for a rewrite of the way
enhanced senses work in Champions. There appear to be three ways
of interpreting Sense Groups and Unusual senses:

1) Unusual senses are their own group ("the chart on p.66 shows
it this way").
2) Any unusual senses are actually in some other sense group,
based on their special effect (implied in various places,
never clearly stated).
3) All unusual senses are each in their own sense group unless
specifically stated otherwise because of their special effects.

Now, throw in the implications for Clairaudience, Invisibility and
Desolidification, and it becomes a serious mess...


DonM.
--
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
==========================================================================

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Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 18:11:33 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Redefining the Action sequence by adding variety.
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> > It's not so different to AD&D's initiative system.
>
> IMHO, that says very little... I have a substantial dose of contempt for
> AD&D, and find the game quite unplayable, if the group actually uses the
> game mechanics as presented; so comparing an approach to AD&D doesn't
> exactly come across as favorable.

Quite right. Of course, who uses the rules as presented?

> The major problems are: 1. inconsistent rules (which doesn't apply to this
> comparison), and 2. an excessive amount of die-rolling (which does); I am
> of the opinion that die rolls should be used sparingly, and should be
> included in a rule only as a last resort.

Agreed. I like the combat action method of Champions. That said,
it does add an interesting twist and, in certain one-on-one situations,
could be a nice mechanic.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."


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