Week Ending March 7, 1998
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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:44:51 +1000 (EST)
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Subject: Re: Resisting Teleport
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At 08:56 PM 2/28/98 -0500, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "DA" == Douglas Alger <dalger@cisco.com> writes:
>
>DA> I seem to remember reading that you could use Teleport to resist being
>DA> teleported by another person, with whoever had the most inches winning.
>
>Considering that Teleportation is not used as an attack, one cannot use it
>against someone else without their consent. Movement powers with the UBO
>advantage may be used as attacks, but UBO requires that you specify a
>reasonably common defense against the power. I would probably not
>consider "having more inches of Teleportation than I" to be a reasonably
>common defense.
>

you mean UAO, right?



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>PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
> \
>
>

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From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 13:06:15 +1000 (EST)
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Subject: Re: Good ideas turned bad?
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At 07:56 PM 2/28/98 -0600, you wrote:

okies. . how this- fresh from a game session last night. Dunno if it
qualifies. .
upon realising he was filthy rich, clarence the brick decided to
spend up big after a sucessful battle. First he ordered a limo and a monster
truck,
which he insisted had to be airdropped to a grid point just behind his house
at a certain
time, as part of a plan to humiliate a rival. THEN the whole team got. .
.kinda carried
away with the money-spending game anbd decided to RENOVATE, and ended up
adding a whole
section to the BACK of the house. . . . yes, by this time they'd completly
forgotten
about the vehicular airdrop and were busy trying out their new in ground. .
. GLASS WALLED
pool when the monster truck joined them in the shallow end. the walls burst
and flodded the
underground disco, and the rest is kinda blurry. . . .

I think bob the werecat summed it up- 'y'know i get the feeling there's a
big sign on
pluto that says "third planet on the right- laugh as you go" '






>
>
>Remnant wrote:
>
>> One of our spider-based characters squirted a bunch of web fluid under the
>> thieves' getaway car before going in after them.
>
>(chuckle) I can top that.
>
>We were in our HQ mansion, a well known landmark. During a photo-shoot with
>the local media (we had just nabbed some troublesome baddies), the Mafia sent
>some of their thugs to pay us a visit in a limo. Up the big circular drive
>they came, and then started lobbing grenades at us. Several of us dove on the
>grenades, while the limo hit the accelerator. Spectre, our heavily shrouded
>undead member, leapt in front of the speeding limo, and punched his fists into
>the radiator. He didn't have the strength to stop the vehicle, and it
>continued forward...driving up and over the hapless Spectre, who couldn't get
>his hands free from the radiator. We could hear bones snapping. Amp and
>Firestorm, electrical and fire projectors, decided to help out...Firestorm lets
>rip with an entangle on the tires, while Amp zorts off with a burst of
>electricity. The gas tank explodes from the heat, setting Spectre on
>fire...oh...not good! Spectre and fire don't mix! The goons dive out of the
>car, and then the Big Box of Grenades inside go off...BOOM!!! Bits of goon and
>Spectre all over the place. Did I mention that Spectre and sunlight didn't
>mix, either? Wasn't much left of his overcoat, hat and cape to keep the
>sunlight off of his smouldering torso and arm. Luckily for him, Firestorm
>covered him with her cape, and we got him down into the dark basement, where he
>could slowly regenerate.
>
>Spectre didn't try to stop speeding cars after that. :)
>
>Mike
>
>
>

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X-Sender: dalger@thyme.cisco.com
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:54:21 -0800
From: Douglas Alger <dalger@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Resisting Teleport
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>>Considering that Teleportation is not used as an attack, one cannot use it
>>against someone else without their consent. Movement powers with the UBO
>>advantage may be used as attacks, but UBO requires that you specify a
>>reasonably common defense against the power. I would probably not
>>consider "having more inches of Teleportation than I" to be a reasonably
>>common defense.
>>
>
>you mean UAO, right?

Yes... I the Teleport has the UAO advantage.

The special effect is creating a wormhole, and dropping it on someone to
send them a distance away. Defenses include Density or Knockback Resistance
(to resist the pull of the portal) or FTL (being able to exceed the speed
of light and therefore avoid the wormhole's effect).

I also seemed to remember an old rule about "resisting" being teleported
against your will, and was trying to find it.

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Good ideas turned bad?
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 20:27:58 -0800
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On Friday, February 27, 1998 2:38 PM, Todd Hanson wrote:


>Anyone up to sharing stories of the worst 'good idea turned bad'
they've
>had happen to them?
>
Unlike the other stories I've seen, this one was as a GM.

I had a group of players, usually fairly clever and inventive, who
occasionally made some downright silly mistakes. (Wizard, remembering
one of his reputations, shouts out, "I am the great Horansho!",
whereupon the local king's guard reply, "The regicide?!?!":) Upon this
occasion, I was just starting a campaign where one of the players was
the hidden heir to the throne, and the campaign revolved around
throwing out the evil dark lord.

At the beginning of the campaign, the young prince, his wizardly
mentor, the grizzled veteran/bodyguard/trainer, and the local rogue
who wants to turn good come into town. Shortly after arriving, the
wizard meets one of his oldest, most trusted friends, who is stunned
and very happy to see them. The friend tell of how his castle had been
taken, his daughter kidnapped, and their worst enemy short of the evil
dark lord himself had put a spell upon her so that she though he was
her father. Additionally, the wizard himself was being traced
magically, so he couldn't recognize her, and everyone in the vicinity
of the castle was so frightened of the evil wizard that they would
report anyone who came near.

The heroes offered to help save the young lady. Their friend offered
them a spelled necklace to temporarily free the young lady from the
evil wizard's control, and an air elemental that, upon being freed
from his bottle would whisk them to safety.

They snuck past a number of locals, (forgetting that the wizard could
question them and then Mind Control them into forgetting everything),
crept silently into the castle, and reached the young lady without
incident. I, getting desperate, have the young lady's maid in waiting
wake up and scream. The heroes escape out the window, and using
strength, climbing, and flight escape over the wall. Me, more
desperate, send numerous guards after them with fast horses. Finally,
I trap the heroes, and force them to release the air elemental.

It was the only way I could think of to prevent them from kidnapping
the young woman, turning her over to the evil wizard, and eating a
poisoned banquet. The evil demon trapped within the bottle convinced
them that they had made a mistake, and the young lady was returned
without harm.

I should have taken this as an omen.:)

Filksinger

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Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 00:35:19 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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At 05:27 PM 2/27/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>How does Distinctive Features affect other characters?
Causes Extreme Reaction, pg 121, BBB.

>How does "Physical
>Limitation: crippled" affect some people?
It doesn't. Now would "PhysLim: women hate character." That's my point.

>I picked out Physical Limitation for a couple of reasons. Most
>importantly, Physical Limitations are disadvantages that characters cannot
>overcome by directed effort. There is nothing that a character with
>"Phys.: Hated by women" can do about it. They do, and let them invent
>their own reasons for it.

Nor can you do something about a distinctive feature if it is bought Not
Concealable, Extreme. I think I prefer that method of modelling a
character "hated on sight by others".

Joe


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Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 00:44:25 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 07:16 PM 2/27/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> I'm leaning toward the Distinctive Feature, Extreme Reaction, construct
>> people have suggested. But, PhysLim is just silly. PhysLim should only be
>> used to describe things that you cannot do. "Be liked by women" stretches
>> the intention of "cannot do".
>
> That's your interpretation and your interpretation only. Phys Lim
>is actually for things you can't avoid with an Ego roll, on lowest terms.
>This works fine for this efffect.

What?!?!? Physical Limitations can be overcome with Ego Rolls? "Doctor, I
can walk!!!" "How'd that happen?" "I rolled a 7!" I assume you thought
PhysLim meant PsyLim, i.e. Psychological Limitation.

Joe


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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 22:26:54 -0800
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On Saturday, February 28, 1998 8:55 PM, Joe Mucchiello wrote:


>At 07:16 PM 2/27/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>>
>>> I'm leaning toward the Distinctive Feature, Extreme Reaction,
construct
>>> people have suggested. But, PhysLim is just silly. PhysLim
should only be
>>> used to describe things that you cannot do. "Be liked by women"
stretches
>>> the intention of "cannot do".
>>
>> That's your interpretation and your interpretation only. Phys Lim
>>is actually for things you can't avoid with an Ego roll, on lowest
terms.
>>This works fine for this efffect.
>
>What?!?!? Physical Limitations can be overcome with Ego Rolls?
"Doctor, I
>can walk!!!" "How'd that happen?" "I rolled a 7!" I assume you
thought
>PhysLim meant PsyLim, i.e. Psychological Limitation.


Uh, no. He said that PhysLim is used to describe things which _cannot_
be overcome with Ego rolls. You misunderstood him.

Filksinger

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Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 00:28:23 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
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> > That's your interpretation and your interpretation only. Phys Lim
> >is actually for things you can't avoid with an Ego roll, on lowest terms.
> >This works fine for this efffect.
>
> What?!?!? Physical Limitations can be overcome with Ego Rolls? "Doctor, I
> can walk!!!" "How'd that happen?" "I rolled a 7!" I assume you thought
> PhysLim meant PsyLim, i.e. Psychological Limitation.

No, I meant PhysLim, i.e. Physical Limitation. Read my comment
again. For things you _can't_ avoid with an Ego roll.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 04:48:55 -0600
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: Classic Comic Cliches...
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On 3/3/98, at 4:23 PM, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> The mantle of a slain (or otherwise "retired") villain has been taken up
>by a mysterious newcomer.

Why is it always the mantle? Why not the andirons, or the chimney, or even the logs themselves?

Ba-da-boom!


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Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 08:42:58 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Good ideas turned bad?
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The Portland Champions, led by Captain Glory, were charging into
Mechanon's base, having just discovered it. We got in fairly easily, and
were riding an elevator down to a lower level.
When the elevator doors opened, we clearly saw a rear view of Mecahnon
himself. Cap (played by me) shouted, "Open fire!" Every hero with a
ranged attack (eight out of the ten heroes present) did so, at full force.
That poor cardboard cutout didn't stand a chance.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 08:46:09 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
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At 03:20 PM 2/28/1998, qts wrote:
>Since you can have DF: (Un)holy Aura, how about DF: Aura of Ineffable
>Location?

Considering that it's effectively a curse, that might be sensible;
however, as I've mentioned in passing elsewhere, I also want to make it
Sticky.
---
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Subject: Re: Resisting Teleport
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 11:58:43 EST
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>The special effect is creating a wormhole, and dropping it on someone
>to
>send them a distance away. Defenses include Density or Knockback
>Resistance
>(to resist the pull of the portal) or FTL (being able to exceed the
>speed
>of light and therefore avoid the wormhole's effect).
>
>I also seemed to remember an old rule about "resisting" being
>teleported
>against your will, and was trying to find it.

Found it -- it's in Champions III. If someone uses Teleport UAO against
a target with Teleport, the target can sacrifice his next phase to resist
the Teleport. If the target has more inches of Teleport than the
attacker, nothing happens. If the attacker has more inches of Teleport,
subtract half the target's range from the attacker's range. (The typo
fairies were very busy on Champs III, this is my best interpretation of
the section.) To quote the example given:

"An attacker with 20" of Teleport usable against others tries to attack a
target with 15" of Teleportation who uses his Teleportation to resist.
Since the attacker's range is greater than the target's range the
attacker may Teleport him. But the maximum range the defender can be
Teleported is 20" - (15/2) = 12". If the attacker tries to Teleport his
target 12" or less he will be successful. But, if he tries to Teleport
the target 13" or more he will fail. Of course, both characters could
push their movement in an attempt to Teleport farther or resist
Teleportation."

Leah

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Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 12:53:11 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
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At 10:26 PM 2/28/98 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
>On Saturday, February 28, 1998 8:55 PM, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>>At 07:16 PM 2/27/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm leaning toward the Distinctive Feature, Extreme Reaction,
>construct
>>>> people have suggested. But, PhysLim is just silly. PhysLim
>should only be
>>>> used to describe things that you cannot do. "Be liked by women"
>stretches
>>>> the intention of "cannot do".
>>>
>>> That's your interpretation and your interpretation only. Phys Lim
>>>is actually for things you can't avoid with an Ego roll, on lowest
>terms.
>>>This works fine for this efffect.
>>
>>What?!?!? Physical Limitations can be overcome with Ego Rolls?
>"Doctor, I
>>can walk!!!" "How'd that happen?" "I rolled a 7!" I assume you
>thought
>>PhysLim meant PsyLim, i.e. Psychological Limitation.
>
>
>Uh, no. He said that PhysLim is used to describe things which _cannot_
>be overcome with Ego rolls. You misunderstood him.

Oops. My mistake. Though I don't think I like Tim's distinction. Phys
Lim, I feel, should be for things that you cannot do. Ever. Period.

I don't like Tim's negative definition: PhysLim: Things that cannot be
avoided with characteristic roll. They lead to misunderstandings. Like
mine above.

Joe

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Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 10:20:44 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Good ideas turned bad?
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-- Douglas Alger wrote:
>
> Several years ago, a player in our group had a hero named Inviant, who was
> an invisible giant. (A decidely odd combination, since this was back in the
> days when Growth normally added to your Presence. Anyway...)
>
> During one session, a news helicopter was struck in combat by a villain and
> crashed into a skyscraper, knocking out its pilot and passengers. Inviant,
> wanting to make sure everyone was OK, carefully pulled the trapped copter
> out of the building, whereupon it's now-free rotor blade whipped around and
> whacked him in the side of the face.
>
> Normally a durable fellow, Inviant came within a few pips of being
> summarily beheaded.

I would have howled blue murder if this had happened to me. There is no
way for a standard helicopter to even have any blades still attached after running
into a building let alone having an intact drive train to have them still be able
to turn.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 10:26:02 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
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Leah L Watts wrote:
> I don't have my book handy, so this might be illegal; but how about
> Detect w/Sense and tons of range to find the hunters, followed by Mind
> Link (limited group - the found hunters), one message - "I'm over here!"

The problem with that is that the targets must want to establish the link.
While it may well be that this is the case, getting them to agree at the time
could be hard. Mind link is also a two way street.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------


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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 01 Mar 98 18:26:40
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
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On Sun, 01 Mar 1998 08:46:09 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:

>At 03:20 PM 2/28/1998, qts wrote:
>>Since you can have DF: (Un)holy Aura, how about DF: Aura of Ineffable
>>Location?
>
> Considering that it's effectively a curse, that might be sensible;
>however, as I've mentioned in passing elsewhere, I also want to make it
>Sticky.

Ah, I didn't spot that.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 10:32:12 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
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-- Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Along a similar line, a while ago I was trying to work out a Power (in a
> magical item) that would send a telepathic message to all of a character's
> Hunters telling them exactly where he is. Does anyone have any suggestions
> of how to do this in mechanical terms? (Other than "plot device," please.)

How about mind scan, usable against others, only against characters
hunteds, to be used to target character only and throw in enough extra range
if that is a facter and enough pluses on the mind scan to counter any area
modifiers. The only problem with this construct is that useable against
others may have a line of sight restriction which would have to brought
around.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "JM" == Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> writes:

>> How does "Physical Limitation: crippled" affect some people?

JM> It doesn't. Now would "PhysLim: women hate character." That's my
JM> point.

Then I suggest you talk to a friend of mine that has received serious death
threats because he has to wear hearing aids.

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Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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At 05:45 PM 3/1/98 -0500, Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "JM" == Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> writes:
>>> How does "Physical Limitation: crippled" affect some people?
>JM> It doesn't. Now would "PhysLim: women hate character." That's my
>JM> point.
>Then I suggest you talk to a friend of mine that has received serious death
>threats because he has to wear hearing aids.

Huh? Who from? I don't want to make light of this but anyone who would
hate your friend has because he wears a hearing aid has the PsyLim "Hates
The Hearing Impared", or "Hates the Crippled and Infirmed", or just plain
"Hates Hearing Aid Wearers". Your friend's PhysLim: "Requires Hearing Aid
to Hear" does not make people hate him. Anyone who hates your friend just
because he is impared, has a PsyLim causing that hatred. The hatred is not
inherent in your friend's hearing problem.

Likewise, "women hate character" is not a PhysLim. I've definately settled
on Distinctive Feature as the best way to model this, since that is one of
the few Disads which can cause a reaction, in someone you've NEVER MET
BEFORE, which does not have to play off of their PsyLims. (The others
being Reputation, Public Identity, possibly Rivalry, and, of course,
Unluck :-)

Joe

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 21:49:19 -0800
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Sunday, March 01, 1998 8:53 AM, Joe Mucchiello wrote:


>At 10:26 PM 2/28/98 -0800, Filksinger wrote:
<snip>
>
>Oops. My mistake. Though I don't think I like Tim's distinction.
Phys
>Lim, I feel, should be for things that you cannot do. Ever. Period.


What, exactly, is it that you can't do, ever, if you have Phys Lim:
Bad leg? Nearsighted? Hard of hearing? Only the Total level of Phys
Lim applies to things you _cannot_ do, ever

Filksinger

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Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 22:20:34 -0800
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
Subject: Character Requests.
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Okay, first off I'd again like to thank those who sent me "God"
powers for my Dieties campaign nasty I am now pondering what to do with
the character, he/she is going to be a serious force in the campaign, a
presence that will involve the olympian(s) in the campaign with the
other pantheons.
I still plan on posting "Baby Z" when I have completed him/her/them
(now I'm pondering twins.....)
However, the reason for this post is I'm trying to flesh out some
fringe universes...mostly those based on established comic book
universes. I have plenty of Marvel & DC heroes thanks to their
respective games and Sam Bell. What I'm looking for are heroes from the
Malibu, Image, Valiant, and Darkhorse universes. I remembber some
gentleman a few years back posting several Image Characters, does anyone
else have any of these or is this group predominately IMAGE hating.....
Any help would be appreciated.

BTW Just curious, but does anyone remember the MEGATON Comic? Not
Megaton Man, just megaton? The comic usually had three or more stories
the principal characters were Vanguard, Megaton, Ultraman & Ultragirl,
Cyberserker, and possibly others. The thing is that Vanguard was Erik
Larsen's Character and that's where Savage Dragon, Smasher, Mighty Man,
a villain called Mace and some of the other characters from Erik's
little corner of Image came from....I always thought it was pretty cool,
wish I still had those issues, some Image junkie might pay a lot of
money for the first appearace of Dragon....


TTFN
Chad


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X-Sender: voxel@mail.theramp.net
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 06:38:08 -0600
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
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At 01:52 PM 3/2/98 -0800, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>bobby farris writes:
>> I usually use the Elemental Control as a bonus to give players that
>> come up with a good character concept. The problem I am having is with
>> players wanting to put characteristics inside an Elemental control.
>
>Well, they're special powers, so without special permission he can't.

Actually, CHAR bought as Powers are Standard Powers, not Special Powers.
Look it up.

--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html

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Subject: Re: Bubble-Boy
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:38:27 -0500
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From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 2/27/98 3:27 PM Tim R. Gilberg (trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu) Said:

> There's nothing wrong with him being able to turn off his own
>Uncontrolled powers. Just make that one of the "set of conditions" that
>will stop the uncontrolled power.

How elegantly munchkinish.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:00:03 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Hero Games <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Bubble-Boy
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> > There's nothing wrong with him being able to turn off his own
> >Uncontrolled powers. Just make that one of the "set of conditions" that
> >will stop the uncontrolled power.
>
> How elegantly munchkinish.

Maybe, but quite within the rules. It does have it's
disadvantages -- such as being mind controlled or intimidated into turning
it off.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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X-Sender: dalger@thyme.cisco.com
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 10:30:22 -0800
From: Douglas Alger <dalger@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Good ideas turned bad?
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> I would have howled blue murder if this had happened to me. There is no
>way for a standard helicopter to even have any blades still attached after
running
>into a building let alone having an intact drive train to have them still
be able
>to turn.

We chalked it up to comic book physics.

Cars involved in a collision always explode, the master villain always has
an escape route, and helicopters survive plowing into the side of an office
building. These all offset the unreality of a 75' invisible giant tiptoeing
through downtown and fighting crime...

- Doug

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X-Sender: dalger@thyme.cisco.com
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 10:32:42 -0800
From: Douglas Alger <dalger@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Resisting Teleport
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Thanks, Leah!

- Doug

>Found it -- it's in Champions III. If someone uses Teleport UAO against
>a target with Teleport, the target can sacrifice his next phase to resist
>the Teleport. If the target has more inches of Teleport than the
>attacker, nothing happens. If the attacker has more inches of Teleport,
>subtract half the target's range from the attacker's range. (The typo
>fairies were very busy on Champs III, this is my best interpretation of
>the section.) To quote the example given:
>
>"An attacker with 20" of Teleport usable against others tries to attack a
>target with 15" of Teleportation who uses his Teleportation to resist.
>Since the attacker's range is greater than the target's range the
>attacker may Teleport him. But the maximum range the defender can be
>Teleported is 20" - (15/2) = 12". If the attacker tries to Teleport his
>target 12" or less he will be successful. But, if he tries to Teleport
>the target 13" or more he will fail. Of course, both characters could
>push their movement in an attempt to Teleport farther or resist
>Teleportation."

>Leah
>
>_____________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
>Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
>
>

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Subject: Re: Power Frameworks
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:38:35 -0500
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On 2/27/98 5:59 PM Tim R. Gilberg (trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu) Said:

>>That doesn't give him more 'skill' in combat, but does make him
>> more able to strike and avoid being struck.
>
> Same thing, different words.

Actually, No.

He would have no more knowledge of where to hit you to make it hurt more
(using CSL's as DC's) and would not be better at hitting you because of
his talent, but only because of his quickness. The difference is probably
to subtle to be accurately modeled in HERO however...

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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Subject: Re: Power Supply Man
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:38:36 -0500
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From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 2/27/98 4:35 PM Curt Hicks (exucurt@exu.ericsson.se) Said:

>Power Supply Man can use his personal energy to power any kind of device
>that requires power. He's essentially a living battery, but not just for
>electrical devices.
>
>How would this be modelled ?

END Battery; UAO; Only vs. Machines, Engines, Electrical Devices, Etc.

Unless you consider organic beings as requiring power...

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "JM" == Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> writes:

JM> Likewise, "women hate character" is not a PhysLim. I've definately
JM> settled on Distinctive Feature as the best way to model this, since
JM> that is one of the few Disads which can cause a reaction, in someone
JM> you've NEVER MET BEFORE, which does not have to play off of their
JM> PsyLims.

Um... I have the impression based on the special effects described that
proximity is required for the disadvantage to come into play. That rules
out your interpretation of Distinctive Features (which I disagree with;
what you are describing now is a Reputation).

I still like the idea of using Physical Limitation. I think it is a
clever, lateral approach to the described character flaw, mostly because it
forces role-playing instead of relying upon dice.

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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
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Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 18:56:32 +0000
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Good ideas turned bad?
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My character and another one, who were both experts at infiltration, security
systems, and the like broke into the villians base to get evidence from their
computer. We snuck by all the guards and security systems. When we got to
the computer, we each expected the other to get the info. Neither one of us
had any computer skills...

-Mark

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Power Supply Man
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "DF" == David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> writes:

DF> END Battery; UAO; Only vs. Machines, Engines, Electrical Devices, Etc.

Just for clarity, does the limitation apply to the UAO advantage or the
entire power? I mean, it does not really limit the character's use of the
END Reserve, only his ability to use UAO.

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X-Authentication-Warning: snowy.owlnet.rice.edu: chip owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:02:45 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: PBeM tips?
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On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> I've been kicking around the idea of starting a Champions PBeM. Without
> doing a lot of lurking around on the web, I thought maybe some of you
> experienced Champs PBeM players/GMs could answer a question for me. How do
> you handle combat? Do you ask players for their general battle plan and
> then run the entire combat yourself, perhaps stopping for more input at a
> critical moment (such as when the bad guys get reinforcements)? Or maybe
> you get an entire turn's worth of actions, resolve them, and ask for the
> next turn? It seems like you have to consolidate it somehow, or combat
> resolution could take forever....

This is how we do it in my PBeM, for combat and everything else. The GM
sends a message updating the PCs on what's going on. With it is a simple
course of actions that the PCs might take, a deadline, and a "resolution"
in time. If the PCs do not respond by the deadline, the clock ticks, and
the default action is followed. Resolution time is taken to perform the
action.

Combat can lend itself to e-mail play. It also adds another exciting
element not possible in live play. Everyone can send in their phase's
actions simultaneously. Furthermore, an active GM can collect responses
and tell the PCs only what their character can see or know. However, in
order to resolve combat quickly, each player must have the discipline to
write at least once a day. Even if nothing is going on for that character,
or the player agrees with the actions of the party or the default action,
they still need to "check in." GMs need to be descriptive enough to tell
all players just about everything they need to know about the combat
environment so that questions will be kept to a minimum. Of course, some
questions may require a perception roll. A good GM will keep an updated
copy of the hexmap on a web site.

Consolidating a turns worth of actions? *That's* a masochistic task.
You're setting yourself up for belligerent players who won't agree with
your interpretation of their character's actions. I believe going phase by
phase is important if you are running a superhero game. If not, do away
with speed and go in 4-6 second turns. You'll be glad you did.

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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "Hero Games" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 98 19:14:32
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Bubble-Boy
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On Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:38:27 -0500, David Fair wrote:

>On 2/27/98 3:27 PM Tim R. Gilberg (trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu) Said:
>
>> There's nothing wrong with him being able to turn off his own
>>Uncontrolled powers. Just make that one of the "set of conditions" that
>>will stop the uncontrolled power.
>
>How elegantly munchkinish.

Agreed - part of the advantage of Uncontrolled is that you don't
control it.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:36:48 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
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On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, bobby farris wrote:

> Hi. I am a gamemaster and am having problems deciding what should go
> into an Elemental Control. I know that I should limit any kind of
> "special" powers, but I wonder what other gamemaster's are allowing.
> I usually use the Elemental Control as a bonus to give players that
> come up with a good character concept. The problem I am having is with
> players wanting to put characteristics inside an Elemental control.
> What brings this up is one of my players wants to play an advanced
> mutant. In the mutant book it gives a package deal for advanced mutants
> and states that advanced mutants have characteristics in the 20-30's
> across the board. He wants to put his charcteristics in a Mutant powers
> Elemental Control. I feel this is kind of power gaming, but I don't know
> what to tell him.

I am an experienced GM, and this is my take on elemental controls. I do
not agree that ECs are or should be a reward for a good character concept.
These are the tenets of my position:

1. As many have said before, a good character concept is a prerequisite
for role-playing, not something extra.

2. Furthermore, the points saved with an EC can be much more than, say, a
package deal, which is a break afforded a set of tightly related skills,
perks,and abilities. ECs can and will save much more than 20%, which for
me is about the limit on such "rewards." Furthermore, the EC doesn't
encourage you or require you to take not-as-useful powers (which are
supposed to be what these point breaks are for)--like the knowledge skills
inherenty in almost all packages.

3. An elemental control is "best" when its slots are the same, or nearly
the same, cost. This isn't necessarily part of good character design, but
might be an example of poor or contrived character design.

So, I have a view of Elemental Control that is different from most
understandings, and in fact what the BBB seems to espouse.

1. Elemental Control is for characters who (gasp) control an element. For
example, a vigilante hero in my campaign, Mr. Frosty, has the ability to
extract kinetic energy from moisture, producing ice. This ability is
similar to Icicle's, one of the examples in the BBB. In most cases,
Elemental Controls are only acceptable for a character who has a single
power that can nevertheless logically produce many effects that are
separate powers in Champions.

2. I expect all the logical points to be covered as slots in the elemental
control. For example, Change Environment, Extra defenses, and Supress make
good EC slots. Mr. Frosty has an EC like this:

EC Ice Formation Power
-1/2 Not in dry conditions
- Icicle Throw (AP RKA)--forms a sharp icicle in his hand and throws it
- Frosty Special (Entangle w/linked continuous NND attack)--encases his
victim in a block of ice.
- Change Environment--make ice sculptures, slippery areas, etc. with his
power, anything minor he could logically do with ice formation.
- Supress fire/heat--extracts kinetic energy from the moisture in the
area, reducing fire/heat effects
- Cold Resistance (Armor vs. ice/cold only)--natural resistance to cold
effects.

3. Because the EC is being used to emulate the effects of a single power
being used in different ways, it now makes sense that the slots ahve the
same or similar costs.

4. Adjustment powers work vs the EC and all its slots, after all, it's the
same power.

5. Characters who have another power can have more than one EC. But I'll
still be looking for the special-effects-only set of powers. The point
break is at least in part so you can afford these less-useful abilities
which the power *should* nevertheless have.

6. I can't really see how "Ice Force Field" or "Ice Running" works with
this basis of the power. Remember, when world mechanics and game mechanics
are in conflict, side with the world mechanics! Mr. Frosty might want to
wear a bulletproof vest, but that will have to come outside the EC.
Alternately, he can entangle himself if the going gets tough and force his
enemies to break through it to get to him. His Cold Resistance slot counts
as a defense against the NND part of his entangle. In other words, SFX,
SFX, SFX.

I would not let someone get away with an EC like "Mutant Powers" or "Magic
Powers," unless in my game world these were manifestations of some
standard ability. Try to get your player to think of how his power(s)
*work*, pseudo-scientifically, and then try to come up with all the
different applications and side effects of that analysis. If you do,
you'll probably have a valid elemental control. HERO is a modelling
system, not a shopping mall. I don't let characters just go pull generic
powers off the HERO shelf and slap them into some framework. They should
be able to describe their powers, and perhaps how they "work" without
reference to any HERO paraphenalia or lingo. Then YOU decide how YOU would
model it, and what other abilities must be purchased. To make up for the
extra (not as useful) abilities, you might grant your player an EC.

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Subject: Re: Power Supply Man
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:08:28 -0500
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From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 3/2/98 1:57 PM Stainless Steel Rat (ratinox@peorth.gweep.net) Said:

>DF> END Battery; UAO; Only vs. Machines, Engines, Electrical Devices, Etc.
>
>Just for clarity, does the limitation apply to the UAO advantage or the
>entire power? I mean, it does not really limit the character's use of the
>END Reserve, only his ability to use UAO.

A good point; I had not thought it through quite that clearly, but only
against the UAO advantage would seem to mae sense.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:18:14 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: PBeM tips?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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I've been kicking around the idea of starting a Champions PBeM. Without
doing a lot of lurking around on the web, I thought maybe some of you
experienced Champs PBeM players/GMs could answer a question for me. How do
you handle combat? Do you ask players for their general battle plan and
then run the entire combat yourself, perhaps stopping for more input at a
critical moment (such as when the bad guys get reinforcements)? Or maybe
you get an entire turn's worth of actions, resolve them, and ask for the
next turn? It seems like you have to consolidate it somehow, or combat
resolution could take forever....

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 14:31:35 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Red Bow Antiques
Subject: Elemental Controls.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
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X-UID: 30

Hi. I am a gamemaster and am having problems deciding what should go
into an Elemental Control. I know that I should limit any kind of
"special" powers, but I wonder what other gamemaster's are allowing.
I usually use the Elemental Control as a bonus to give players that
come up with a good character concept. The problem I am having is with
players wanting to put characteristics inside an Elemental control.

What brings this up is one of my players wants to play an advanced
mutant. In the mutant book it gives a package deal for advanced mutants
and states that advanced mutants have characteristics in the 20-30's
across the board. He wants to put his charcteristics in a Mutant powers
Elemental Control. I feel this is kind of power gaming, but I don't know
what to tell him.

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Subject: Re: Bubble-Boy
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:48:53 -0500
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
cc: "Hero Games" <champ-l@omg.org>
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On 3/2/98 11:00 AM Tim R. Gilberg (trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu) Said:

>> > There's nothing wrong with him being able to turn off his own
>> >Uncontrolled powers. Just make that one of the "set of conditions" that
>> >will stop the uncontrolled power.
>>
>> How elegantly munchkinish.
>
> Maybe, but quite within the rules. It does have it's
>disadvantages -- such as being mind controlled or intimidated into turning
>it off.

Oh, please. You may allow such a construct in your games, but
Uncontrolled means that the character does not control it; That is the
advantage. That is what you are paying points for; severing the "link"
between the power and the individual.


David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:18:05 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: pod@avalon.net
From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net>
Subject: Game so far
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org


>>
>>So how has the game gone so far?
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander.
>>___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR]
>>
>
>So far my game is coming along alright. I have set things up in
>New Olreans of all places. I figure that that is a fairly safe place
>to use for a setting. Being that I have never really heard of anyone
>actually using in another games seting.
>
>So far, my players have had the joy of encountering a small squad of VIPER
agents, rescuing civilians from a burning building and few other minor plot
points have been introduced here and there.
>
>With any luck, all of the players will get together in the next session to
try to foil the primary plot that I am using to get them all together. If
that happens, they may form their own happy little super heroic group or go
about fighting crime on their own.
>
>Characters that are in my campaign so far:
> A Detective based character
> A Gravity based energy character
> A Diamond form character
> A Martial Artist
> A Biological Construct of a 4 armed spider type guy.
>
>That is all.
>
>
House of Spackle
pod@avalon.net

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:26:55 -0500 (EST)
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To: champ-l@omg.org

> >>>>> "JM" == Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> writes:
> JM> Likewise, "women hate character" is not a PhysLim. I've definately
> JM> settled on Distinctive Feature as the best way to model this, since
> JM> that is one of the few Disads which can cause a reaction, in someone
> JM> you've NEVER MET BEFORE, which does not have to play off of their
> JM> PsyLims.
>
> Um... I have the impression based on the special effects described that
> proximity is required for the disadvantage to come into play. That rules
> out your interpretation of Distinctive Features (which I disagree with;
> what you are describing now is a Reputation).

Nowhere, that I know of, does Distinctive Feature say that it works at any
particular range. DF's have to be perceived to be effective, there is
nothing saying that the Extreme reaction (part of DF not Rep) cannot be
based on proximity.

> I still like the idea of using Physical Limitation. I think it is a
> clever, lateral approach to the described character flaw, mostly because it
> forces role-playing instead of relying upon dice.

It is a forced effect on the reacting female character. Most role-players
don't like being told how their character should react. That's why I
prefer dice to describe the effect. Which would you prefer, as a
player?

GM to Player: "When you see him you have a sudden feeling of loathing."
Player to GM: "Why do I hate him? I'm not normally judgemental."
GM to Player: "You just do. Look I know you don't want your character to
hate this person but you have to because it says so here."
-- or --
GM to Player: "When you seeh him you have a sudden feeling of loathing."
Player to GM: "Why do I hate him? I'm not normally judgemental."
GM rolls dice. "I rolled a 36, act as if Mind Controlled, you hate him."
Player plays along knowing an EGO roll is coming.

I've known many people who get annoyed when you tell them to react without
also explaining the game effect. (Or at least hinting at it.)

Joe

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:27:31 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Elemental Controls.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org



> From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)

> I usually use the Elemental Control as a bonus to give players that
> come up with a good character concept. The problem I am having is with
> players wanting to put characteristics inside an Elemental control.
>
> What brings this up is one of my players wants to play an advanced
> mutant. In the mutant book it gives a package deal for advanced mutants
> and states that advanced mutants have characteristics in the 20-30's
> across the board. He wants to put his charcteristics in a Mutant powers
> Elemental Control. I feel this is kind of power gaming, but I don't know
> what to tell him.
>

Tell him that "Mutant powers" is not a valid elemental control in your game.
FWIW, it wouldn't be valid in my game either.

Curt

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 13:29:27 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Physical Limitations Defined
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 12:53 PM 3/1/1998 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>Oops. My mistake. Though I don't think I like Tim's distinction. Phys
>Lim, I feel, should be for things that you cannot do. Ever. Period.
>
>I don't like Tim's negative definition: PhysLim: Things that cannot be
>avoided with characteristic roll. They lead to misunderstandings. Like
>mine above.

Actually, a Physical Limitation can represent anything that's physically
more difficult, up to and including impossible. Nearsightedness, hardness
of hearing, a damaged leg, or a variety of other things could all be
represented with Physical Limitations without making it all-out impossible
for the character to do things.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 13:30:06 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 06:26 PM 3/1/1998, qts wrote:
>On Sun, 01 Mar 1998 08:46:09 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>>At 03:20 PM 2/28/1998, qts wrote:
>>>Since you can have DF: (Un)holy Aura, how about DF: Aura of Ineffable
>>>Location?
>>
>> Considering that it's effectively a curse, that might be sensible;
>>however, as I've mentioned in passing elsewhere, I also want to make it
>>Sticky.
>
>Ah, I didn't spot that.

Not your fault at all. I didn't mention it until after you'd sent that
out.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 13:33:16 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Hunt Me!
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 10:26 AM 3/1/1998 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
>Leah L Watts wrote:
>> I don't have my book handy, so this might be illegal; but how about
>> Detect w/Sense and tons of range to find the hunters, followed by Mind
>> Link (limited group - the found hunters), one message - "I'm over here!"
>
> The problem with that is that the targets must want to establish the link.
> While it may well be that this is the case, getting them to agree at the
time
>could be hard. Mind link is also a two way street.

Answering the latter first, it can be Limited so that it only gives
information to the target and not vice-versa.
As for the target wanting the link, I have a hard time visualizing (for
example) Pulsar thinking to himself, "Hm, I'm getting a psychic sense of
Quantum's location. I don't want that, though."
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 13:34:59 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 05:45 PM 3/1/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "JM" == Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> writes:
>
>>> How does "Physical Limitation: crippled" affect some people?
>
>JM> It doesn't. Now would "PhysLim: women hate character." That's my
>JM> point.
>
>Then I suggest you talk to a friend of mine that has received serious death
>threats because he has to wear hearing aids.

That's "DF: Hearing Aid," not a direct effect of the Physical
Limitation: Hearing Impaired.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:39:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Curt Hicks wrote:

> > From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
>
> > I usually use the Elemental Control as a bonus to give players that
> > come up with a good character concept. The problem I am having is with
> > players wanting to put characteristics inside an Elemental control.
> >
> > What brings this up is one of my players wants to play an advanced
> > mutant. In the mutant book it gives a package deal for advanced mutants
> > and states that advanced mutants have characteristics in the 20-30's
> > across the board. He wants to put his charcteristics in a Mutant powers
> > Elemental Control. I feel this is kind of power gaming, but I don't know
> > what to tell him.
> >
>
> Tell him that "Mutant powers" is not a valid elemental control in your game.
> FWIW, it wouldn't be valid in my game either.

Same here. Wind powers, fire powers, water control, earth control, even
vampire powers... but nothing a generic as 'mutant powers'. And no
characteristics in an EC.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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X-Authentication-Warning: xanadu.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:42:13 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, bobby farris wrote:

> What brings this up is one of my players wants to play an advanced
> mutant. In the mutant book it gives a package deal for advanced mutants
> and states that advanced mutants have characteristics in the 20-30's
> across the board. He wants to put his charcteristics in a Mutant powers
> Elemental Control. I feel this is kind of power gaming, but I don't know
> what to tell him.

Well, in the Marvel Universe, mutants generally have high endurances - in
Champs this would be high con, bod, and probably PD/ED/Armor as well.

However, I think EC: Mutant Powers is way too broad, since it could
conceivably include every power in the book. ECs boost a select group of
powers determined by their nature, not all powers.

'Mutant Weather Control' would be acceptable, as would 'Mutant
Shapeshifting' - but not 'generic mutant powers' - unless all mutants in
your setting share some abilities or powers, that is.

I'd ask him to redefine his EC to be something that was less broad in
scope.

J

"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:45:11 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org


> I usually use the Elemental Control as a bonus to give players that
> come up with a good character concept. The problem I am having is with
> players wanting to put characteristics inside an Elemental control.

Just say no.

> What brings this up is one of my players wants to play an advanced
> mutant. In the mutant book it gives a package deal for advanced mutants
> and states that advanced mutants have characteristics in the 20-30's
> across the board. He wants to put his charcteristics in a Mutant powers
> Elemental Control. I feel this is kind of power gaming, but I don't know
> what to tell him.


That this is power gaming and that you won't allow it. The
advanced generation mutant package, while not overly powerful in any one
area, gives a very nice set of characteristics and powers. It is
expensive, but provides a wonderful start to a character. However, it
definately does not belong in an EC. An EC would be more specialized
things such as "mutant control of fire" and "mutant telekinisis" and
"mutant shapeshifting".



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:52:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

bobby farris writes:
> I usually use the Elemental Control as a bonus to give players that
> come up with a good character concept. The problem I am having is with
> players wanting to put characteristics inside an Elemental control.

Well, they're special powers, so without special permission he can't. In
general, you can assume that characteristics in an EC, unless they have some
severe limitation, represent munchkinism. Even if I were inclined to allow it,
I would apply the same restriction to stats in an EC as to stats in a
multipower -- you have no figs, and don't get any points for it. I also prefer
to say that all powers in ECs are visible, even if they normally would not be.
>
> What brings this up is one of my players wants to play an advanced
> mutant. In the mutant book it gives a package deal for advanced mutants
> and states that advanced mutants have characteristics in the 20-30's
> across the board. He wants to put his charcteristics in a Mutant powers
> Elemental Control. I feel this is kind of power gaming, but I don't know
> what to tell him.

Tell him 'no'. They're special powers, you don't need to give a good excuse;).
You should probably also tell him 'mutant powers' is not a suitably restricted
concept for an EC.

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X-Sender: shelley@mail.mactyre.net
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 14:00:48 -0800
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <scm@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: PBeM tips?
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 03:18 PM 3/2/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>I've been kicking around the idea of starting a Champions PBeM. Without
>doing a lot of lurking around on the web, I thought maybe some of you
>experienced Champs PBeM players/GMs could answer a question for me. How do
>you handle combat? Do you ask players for their general battle plan and
>then run the entire combat yourself, perhaps stopping for more input at a
>critical moment (such as when the bad guys get reinforcements)? Or maybe
>you get an entire turn's worth of actions, resolve them, and ask for the
>next turn? It seems like you have to consolidate it somehow, or combat
>resolution could take forever....

The way I work PBEM combat is to simply organize my turns a little more
than I normally do. Whereas in a regular day the players send e-mail to
each other and me as they will, during combat turns all e-mail goes only to
me. I will send out a description of what the villains do, then the
players have until 5 PM the following day to respond (to me) with their
actions for the next phase or two (save yourself some time and ask that
they be very descriptive with their actions; you'll only have to deviate if
their actions fail). Then I compile it all, determine what happens, and
send all of that back out. Then they have until 5 the following
afternoon...and on until it's resolved.

It sounds like a lot of work, but honestly, it's not very bad. The longest
I ever had a combat take was four days (and the writeup for the turn was
around 50K of web page -- that's a testimony to the wonderful players I had
at the time.) I determined if the players had the time to commit to the
combat (as well as myself) and if anyone would miss the 5 PM deadline, they
knew they'd forfeit their actions (and so no one ever missed). Since I run
my PBEM turns from Mondays-Thursdays most of the time, compile the turns
myself in Word (for easier posting after they're completed), the only
significant change from my normal schedule was the imposition of the
deadline and insisting that all player mail be filtered through me. While
that did cut down on banter, that could be resolved by letting the players
add dialog after the combat is over.

These rules were employed in my "Golden Gate Guardians PBEM," which has all
of its turns posted at http://www.mactyre.net/scm/pbem/pbem.html. My
current game emphasizes roleplaying on a one on one, one on two level and
doesn't involve much combat (it's almost all investigation), so I don't
need the strictures. But I would recommend that, if you have more than
three players, you come up with a structure for combat or you'll end up
pulling your hair out. =)

Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
http://www.mactyre.net

A flung stone has always been a fool's favorite means of putting himself on
a level with the wise.
-- Edgar Pangborn

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 14:09:44 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

At 02:31 PM 3/2/1998 -0600, bobby farris wrote:
>Hi. I am a gamemaster and am having problems deciding what should go
>into an Elemental Control. I know that I should limit any kind of
>"special" powers, but I wonder what other gamemaster's are allowing.
> I usually use the Elemental Control as a bonus to give players that
>come up with a good character concept. The problem I am having is with
>players wanting to put characteristics inside an Elemental control.
>
> What brings this up is one of my players wants to play an advanced
>mutant. In the mutant book it gives a package deal for advanced mutants
>and states that advanced mutants have characteristics in the 20-30's
>across the board. He wants to put his charcteristics in a Mutant powers
>Elemental Control. I feel this is kind of power gaming, but I don't know
>what to tell him.

I like two rules for ECs that have been posted to this list. One is
mine, and one is not.
The one that is not (I think Tim Gilberg is the one that came up with
it, but I'm not sure) is that ECs should represent different mechanics --
that is, different applications -- for what is essentially the same power.
Ice Control, for instance, should be in an EC, though the character can
create ice armor (Force Field), an ice slide (gliding), an ice fist (Energy
Blast), and numerous other effects. Just so it all falls under one basic
ability.
My own rule, which can be considered an extension of the above even
though the two were developed completely independently, is that when one
Power is Drained (including being Dispelled, Supressed, Transferred from,
or similarly affected), it affects all of the Powers in the EC. If the
Power has more Active Points than twice the Elemental Control, then it only
down normally until it reaches that point; after that, the EC Pool -- and,
as a side effect, each other Power in the EC -- go down at half the rate
that the directly affected Power is reduced. Once the Power is gone, the
other Powers in the EC are essentially stand-alone (non-Frameworked)
Powers, bought for a full cost equal to what they normally cost after the
EC bonus. (If you need a better explanation of that, just ask.)
Now, given these rules, I *might* allow a character to have a bunch of
Characteristics in an EC under the "Mutant Powers" header, but *require* No
Figured Characteristics on all Primary Characteristics in the EC, *and*
make sure the player understands the above rule regarding Drained Powers in
an EC, as well as the fact that STR Drain and STUN Drain are the most
common such abilities.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 14:14:07 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: PBeM tips?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

At 03:18 PM 3/2/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>I've been kicking around the idea of starting a Champions PBeM. Without
>doing a lot of lurking around on the web, I thought maybe some of you
>experienced Champs PBeM players/GMs could answer a question for me. How do
>you handle combat? Do you ask players for their general battle plan and
>then run the entire combat yourself, perhaps stopping for more input at a
>critical moment (such as when the bad guys get reinforcements)? Or maybe
>you get an entire turn's worth of actions, resolve them, and ask for the
>next turn? It seems like you have to consolidate it somehow, or combat
>resolution could take forever....

I haven't run any combats in my Fantasy Hero pbem yet, and don't
anticipate any for a while, but what I expect to do is this:
Before things start heading that direction, I'll be asking each player
for a general tactics sheet -- what this individual does as "default"
tactics under most normal combat circumstances (with "frontal assault" and
"ambush" at the top of the list). This can be amended at any time.
Then, as each combat begins, I ask the player(s) involved for any
special priorities to keep in mind.
Then I just run the combat, giving a pause for critical decisions and
letting them add soliloquies later.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 14:19:17 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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At 04:26 PM 3/2/1998 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>> I still like the idea of using Physical Limitation. I think it is a
>> clever, lateral approach to the described character flaw, mostly because
it
>> forces role-playing instead of relying upon dice.
>
>It is a forced effect on the reacting female character. Most role-players
>don't like being told how their character should react. That's why I
>prefer dice to describe the effect. Which would you prefer, as a
>player?
>
>GM to Player: "When you see him you have a sudden feeling of loathing."
>Player to GM: "Why do I hate him? I'm not normally judgemental."
>GM to Player: "You just do. Look I know you don't want your character to
>hate this person but you have to because it says so here."
>-- or --
>GM to Player: "When you seeh him you have a sudden feeling of loathing."
>Player to GM: "Why do I hate him? I'm not normally judgemental."
>GM rolls dice. "I rolled a 36, act as if Mind Controlled, you hate him."
>Player plays along knowing an EGO roll is coming.
>
>I've known many people who get annoyed when you tell them to react without
>also explaining the game effect. (Or at least hinting at it.)

Well, there's always:

GM: "When you see him you have a sudden feeling of loathing."
Player: "Why do I hate him? I'm not normally judgemental."
GM: "You're not sure what it is. It's just a feeling that comes over you."

I've used these sorts of explanations and never been argued with. The
players have always taken it as understood that there's some game effect at
play without being told what it is. After all, the character wouldn't know
the dynamic involved (either game effect or, in many cases, Special Effect).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:24:20 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> Hi. I am a gamemaster and am having problems deciding what should go
> into an Elemental Control. I know that I should limit any kind of
> The problem I am having is with
> players wanting to put characteristics inside an Elemental control.
>
> What brings this up is one of my players wants to play an advanced
> mutant. In the mutant book it gives a package deal for advanced mutants
> and states that advanced mutants have characteristics in the 20-30's
> across the board. He wants to put his charcteristics in a Mutant powers
> Elemental Control. I feel this is kind of power gaming, but I don't know
> what to tell him.
>
Well... An advanced mutant is a very high point concept. Is it a high
power game? If not the problem is more in the concept than in the way it's
being written up.

As for an actual EC with stats in it. It needs good justification.
Not just something like "I got my strength in an EC cause I have an EC of
'Strong Guy Powers'".

The cardinal rule here is to ask not why the stat belongs in the EC.
If you do that almost anything can be justifiable. After all, being a strong
guy is a logical consistant effect so you should get it right? Not ussually.

The key is to ask why the stat can't be placed outside the EC. Think
about it. A lot harder to answer isn't it? If this condition can be met, allow
it. If not, don't.

It goes against tradition to place stats in EC's, so doing so needs
justification. Putting powers in EC's is however, tradition. So these simply
have to meet the first condition.

Never allow a PC to use a power framework to build a character with
a bigger bang. Allow them to let a player build a character who is more
versitile or more form fitting to a concept.
The difference is subtle; but it's there.

Rook
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Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:26:38 -0800 (PST)
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net (Unverified)
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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I use a somewhat harsh rule on elemental controls that does cut down on
abuse of them quite a bit. Put simple, ECs represent single unified SFX,
more or less a single "Power" that allows a character to do many things,
like for example Weather Control. The EC might have flight, energy blast and
darkness in it but they are all the effect of a single ability/sfx.

I let adjustment powers affect all abilites in an EC at once without the +2
modifier as they are a "single" power. It solely depends on the sfx the
adustment power affects, say mutant powers or magic.

I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
But it sure feels good!
Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior

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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:35:03 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Elemental Controls.
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Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> wrote:

> HERO is a modelling system, not a shopping mall.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I REALLY, REALLY like this. Curt

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:40:52 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> Nowhere, that I know of, does Distinctive Feature say that it works at any
> particular range. DF's have to be perceived to be effective, there is
> nothing saying that the Extreme reaction (part of DF not Rep) cannot be
> based on proximity.
>
> > I still like the idea of using Physical Limitation. I think it is a
>
> It is a forced effect on the reacting female character. Most role-players
> don't like being told how their character should react. That's why I
> prefer dice to describe the effect. Which would you prefer, as a
> player?
>
> GM to Player: "When you see him you have a sudden feeling of loathing."
> Player to GM: "Why do I hate him? I'm not normally judgemental."
> GM to Player: "You just do. Look I know you don't want your character to
> hate this person but you have to because it says so here."
> -- or --
> GM to Player: "When you seeh him you have a sudden feeling of loathing."
> Player to GM: "Why do I hate him? I'm not normally judgemental."
> GM rolls dice. "I rolled a 36, act as if Mind Controlled, you hate him."
> Player plays along knowing an EGO roll is coming.
>
> I've known many people who get annoyed when you tell them to react without
> also explaining the game effect. (Or at least hinting at it.)

Strange.

As a GM I'd go for:

GM to Player: "The mere sight of Slime-Guy fills you with a sense of loathing
and disgust. It's not a logical feeling, it's something primal and
driving. Try as you might, you cannot get the sense of disgust and
wrongness from you. It seems to speak straight to your soul."
GM OOC: Ok, now roleplay that as you think your character would interpret it.

Rook
__
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 02 Mar 1998 17:45:19 -0500
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>>>>> "KF" == Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> writes:

KF> I use a somewhat harsh rule on elemental controls that does cut down on
KF> abuse of them quite a bit. Put simple, ECs represent single unified
KF> SFX, more or less a single "Power" that allows a character to do many
KF> things, like for example Weather Control.

I hate to be the one to break this to you... but that is *EXACTLY* what an
Elemental Control is supposed to be. You are not being harsh, you are
doing it right.

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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
\ head.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 02 Mar 1998 17:57:06 -0500
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>>>>> "JM" == Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> writes:

JM> GM to Player: "When you seeh him you have a sudden feeling of loathing."
JM> Player to GM: "Why do I hate him? I'm not normally judgemental."
JM> GM rolls dice. "I rolled a 36, act as if Mind Controlled, you hate him."
JM> Player plays along knowing an EGO roll is coming.

Nice bit of roll-playing, there. I still like my idea, but now I like it
more than ever.

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Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:57:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Bryant Berggren wrote:

> >> I usually use the Elemental Control as a bonus to give players that
> >> come up with a good character concept. The problem I am having is with
> >> players wanting to put characteristics inside an Elemental control.
> >
> >Well, they're special powers, so without special permission he can't.
>
> Actually, CHAR bought as Powers are Standard Powers, not Special Powers.
> Look it up.

Yes, but I recall that there is a statement to the efect that CHAR can't
go into a EC without express permission of the GM.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 98 18:08:50 -0500
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
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bobby farris redbf@ldd.net 3/2/98 3:31 PM

> What brings this up is one of my players wants to play an advanced
>mutant. In the mutant book it gives a package deal for advanced mutants
>and states that advanced mutants have characteristics in the 20-30's
>across the board. He wants to put his charcteristics in a Mutant powers
>Elemental Control. I feel this is kind of power gaming, but I don't know
>what to tell him.

In the last campaign I was in, we treated AGMs as a racial deal and
allowed the characteristics in an EC. The "package" was still hideously
(?)
expensive but not particularly unbalancing. Mostly, I'd say look at what
all the players are doing. If most are getting an EC handling their
major powers, then in general there shouldn't be a big problem with an
AGM having his major powers (which will most likely be primarily
characteristics, especially to start) in an EC also. Think about your
players, THE player and make the best judgement call you can with respect
to
everyone having fun...

PAX,
John

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Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 98 18:18:15 -0500
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
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Darien Phoenix Lynx chip@owlnet.rice.edu 3/2/98 2:36 PM

>4. Adjustment powers work vs the EC and all its slots, after all, it's the
>same power.

I know that the adjustment powers hit everything is commonly accepted.
However, an EC saves, in and of itself no more than half the cost of a
power. Thats a -1 limitation. So why does it give every adjuster out
there a +2 advantage: effects all powers of a SPX for free? Just seems to
be a little bit of an over reaction to the cost break...

PAX,
John

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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 15:34:06 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
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At 05:57 PM 3/2/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "JM" == Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> writes:
>
>JM> GM to Player: "When you seeh him you have a sudden feeling of loathing."
>JM> Player to GM: "Why do I hate him? I'm not normally judgemental."
>JM> GM rolls dice. "I rolled a 36, act as if Mind Controlled, you hate him."
>JM> Player plays along knowing an EGO roll is coming.
>
>Nice bit of roll-playing, there. I still like my idea, but now I like it
>more than ever.
>
Ah, go play Amber if you don't like rollin' dice, ya weenie. :)

Seriously, the reason we have game mechanics, as opposed to 'lets pretend',
is to quantify and settle disputes. Going back to the original example,
what happens when the PC says, "I try not to hate her" or "I have 20 points
of Mental Defense -- did you remember that?" Does it become entirely your
judgement? Having a mechanic to model how strong the effect is vs.
resistance is useful.

Can you imagine telling a PC:"The villain just shot an energy bolt at you.
You fall over and are unconscious." without rolling to-hit, damage,
deducting armor, etc? Why, then, would you declare a mind control as a
similair absolute?

Good role-playing and GMing ought to override the rules when necessary, but
the rules are there for a reason.

I had an NPC in a 1940's WW2 game, called Fatale, who actually had a
similair mind-control power. 95% of the time, the effect she had on the
(male) PCs was simply roleplayed. But when it was necessary to determine,
fairly, if she could actually induce a PC to act against his better
judgement in life-and-death situation, it was good to have a set of rules
which could provide a semblance of an objective test.


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:35:03 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Elemental Controls.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>> What brings this up is one of my players wants to play an advanced
>> mutant. In the mutant book it gives a package deal for advanced mutants
>> and states that advanced mutants have characteristics in the 20-30's
>> across the board. He wants to put his charcteristics in a Mutant powers
>> Elemental Control. I feel this is kind of power gaming, but I don't know
>> what to tell him.

Smack him with something, preferably something large and heavy. This is not
a 'unified' set of powers.

>These are the tenets of my position:
>
>1. As many have said before, a good character concept is a prerequisite
>for role-playing, not something extra.

Well...not really. I've played and have seen some pretty lame character
concepts. It can be hard to come up with a good one, expecially for a novice
roleplayer or someone new to HERO. The catch is that a 'good' roleplayer
will hopefully turn this 'dull' concept into something interesting, given
time. If someone said to me "I wanna play the Human Torch", I'd roll my
eyes, but if he was adamant I'd let him (within the power limits for the
campaign), and I'd let him buy his powers through an EC, b/c the powers are
logically connected.

>2. Furthermore, the points saved with an EC can be much more than, say, a
>package deal, which is a break afforded a set of tightly related skills,
>perks,and abilities. ECs can and will save much more than 20%, which for
>me is about the limit on such "rewards."

Well, the more powers in an EC you have, the more you save. Baseline savings
is 25% (a 10 point EC w/ 2 x 20 point powers costs 30, not 40) barring extra
limitations, and it can go as high as near-50% (a 10 point EC w/ 10 x 20
point powers costs 110, not 200). So yes, the rewards are high - but you do
have to fit the criteria for the EC. As I've said before, there are plenty
of very-popular comic-book supers with a hodgepodge of seemingly unrelated
powers (Spiderman, Superman, etc.). These are, in effect, 'bad character
concepts' using that yardstick.

> Furthermore, the EC doesn't
>encourage you or require you to take not-as-useful powers (which are
>supposed to be what these point breaks are for)--like the knowledge skills
>inherenty in almost all packages.

I don't know about that. When I have an EC I'm more likely to take that
Change Environment that I 'should' have (given the basis of my powers),
despite its less-than-stellar usefulness. But often, yes, this is correct,
those 'saved' points go into 'more power'.

>3. An elemental control is "best" when its slots are the same, or nearly
>the same, cost. This isn't necessarily part of good character design, but
>might be an example of poor or contrived character design.

True. I'd like to see a rule that lets you buy 'smaller' powers in an EC,
with the limitation being that you never save more than half. So if you have
a 20 point EC, you could buy a 10 point power, but the EC would