Week Ending March 21, 1998

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Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 12:51:13 +1100
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Twisted Scenario Ideas
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At 05:49 PM 3/11/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Here's an idea I thought up this afternoon. It's a good scenario for a
>Dark Champions campaign, with a really cruel twist.
> Suppose the PCs are in a situation where they need to learn the
>top-secret security codes used in a now-discontinued but extremely
>sensitive project by the government of a foreign power.

O.K.

> For the sake of
>argument, let's say that the government of the People's Republic of China
>did some biological warfare research in the 1970s,

Likely, of course so did the USA...

> but some terrorist group
>(like VIPER or VOICE) has stolen it and is preparing to release the virus
>for its own vile purposes.

Threatening to anyway.

> The Chinese are understandably reluctant to
>even admit that such research exists, and so are not forthcoming with the
>information.

Frankly I don't see that, I could see that they don't know about the
theft, it was a covert operation which completely bypassed security. PSI
would be an organisation I'd use to set that up.
If I was running China I'd rather let it be known that someone had stolen
the weapon than let people think that it was us using it if it was released.

> However, the PCs, working through the Internet, are able to get past
>security measures in the Chinese government's computers -- up to a point.

Sorry but Cyberpunk aside anything that sensitive would _NOT_ be connected
to the internet. It just wouldn't happen. You'd have to actually do a
physical insertion into the compound.

>They need an extremely long access code to get the actual information that
>will enable them to neutralize the virus.
> From their information sources, they learn that two Chinese nationals
>are in the area who used to work on that government project. One has a job
>at the consulate (or even the embassy), while the other is in town on
>unrelated business. Each knows half of the access code needed to get into
>the information on the Chinese government's computer system.

The Access code would be changed regularly, I'd be changing it at least
every week myself, more often would be likely.

> The PCs find themselves with little choice but to kidnap these two
>Chinese and Interrogate the information out of them. Sure enough, each of
>them knows half of the access code.
> The problem is that it's the same half.
> I don't know how the PCs would get out of that mess....

Maybe they don't. Maybe they lose, or maybe a Chinese covert operations
team has tracked down the enemy and solves the problem rather bloodily.

****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
h_laws@tassie.net.au

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Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 12:51:20 +1100
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Brick "Stupid Tricks"
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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At 09:40 AM 3/12/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by David Fair
>>Hard Skin:
> Damage Shield & Missle Deflection<
>
>Does the Damage Shield represent the fact that punching the brick would be
>like punching a brick wall, which could hurt? With Damage Shield, people
>who shake hands with the hero are going to take damage as well, which
>doesn't match up with the "brick wall" special effect.

I agree with you there, unless you're like The Thing in his Spiky stage
when punching him did look like it would hurt.

> I guess you could
>turn it on and off though...I was assuming that "Hard Skin" would be Always
>On. Also, why Missile Deflection instead of Armor or just extra PD/ED?
>Missile Deflection means the hard skin doesn't protect against melee
>attacks, and it only protects against missile attacks if you make your
>roll.

I can see missile deflection for that, I mean can anyone see a thrown
knife going through The Thing's skin?

> If you only wanted it to protect some of the time, I would think
>that an Activation roll on Armor or extra PD/ED would be the better choice.
>
>

****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
h_laws@tassie.net.au

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Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 00:59:32 -0600
From: John Stefanski <jstefanski@internetMCI.com>
Subject: Sidekick
Reply-to: "John Stefanski (E-mail 3)" <commando@mail.com>
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Anyone out there using Sidekick to help run combat? I need to customize the amount of characters, add more or delete some.

Any suggestions or fixes, please reply.

JS

========================
JS Stefanski - jstefanski@iname.com

"aut vincere aut mori" - Conquer or Die
========================

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Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 05:00:39 -0600
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
dlindman@intelectinc.com,
frsb@airmail.net, jameseasy@aol.com, ltharp2@airmail.net,
ceyanna@yahoo.com, wtharp2@airmail.net
Subject: 350 point character ANOTHER TRY
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Thanks very much for all the suggestions I've received about my character for
a 350-point campaign. I've done a lot of tinkering with the character, and
have hopefully brought him up to code, but if you notice any changes I can
make for the best, please let me know.

Oscar is an android, built as an anti-terrorist unit by a scientist who hoped
to get funding from the government. The android foiled a terrorist group at
the Academy Award ceremonies one year, and became an instant celebrity. Some
of the Hollywood fringe element have become convinced that he's a good-luck
charm of some sort, and he's always being courted by producers and actors, who
think he has some kind of clout; would-be starlets also hang around him (a
string of DNPCs). Oscar is also stalked by two individuals: one is a
well-known actor who wants to put him on his mantelpiece, the other is a
scientist who wants to take him apart.

Oscar's android physiology means that anyone attempting to use the Paramedic
skill upon him must also have Electronic, Mechanics, or some related skill to
make some sense out of his construction.

15/50 STR 5
23 DEX 39
33 CON 46
12 BODY 4
18 INT 8
10 EGO 0
23 PRE 13
20 COM 5
7/14 PD 4
14 ED 7
5 SPD 17
10/17 REC 0
50 END -8
37/54 STUN 0
Characteristics Cost: 140

32 Damage Class +8DC
4 Martial Block
4 Martial Disarm
4 Martial Dodge
3 Martial Throw
4 Nerve Strike
3 Martial Grab
4 Killing Strike
2 7 Mental Defense,Not vs. mental powers targeted vs.
machines(-1)
5 5 Power Defense
7 1 BODY Regen,Not in strong magnetic fields(-1/2)
54 18/18 Armor
30 Life Support,doesn't breathe,doesn't eat/sleep/excrete,safe
in vacuum/pressure,safe in radiation,safe in heat/cold,
immune to disease,immune to aging
3 Acrobatics 14-
3 Breakfall 14-
3 Climbing 14-
3 Lockpicking 14-
3 Stealth 14-
3 Conversation 14-
3 Sleight Of Hand 14-
-2 0" Swimming 0
0 10" Superleap 5
35 50 STR 3

Powers Cost: 210
Total Cost: 350

Base Points: 200
15 Distinctive,"Looks like the 'Oscar' statue",concealable,
major
15 Psych Lim,"Fascinated by humanity",very common,moderate
10 Psych Lim,"Android Rights Supporter",uncommon,strong
15 Psych Lim,"Code against killing",common,strong
5 Hunted,"Hollywood producers, Motion Picture Academy",less
powerful,non-combat influence,mild,appear 8-
15 Hunted,"Crazed movie star",less powerful,non-combat
influence,harsh,appear 11-
15 Hunted,"Crazed scientist (wants to take Oscar apart)",as
powerful,harsh,appear 11-
10 Hunted, terrorists,as powerful,harsh,appear 8-
10 DNPC,"Various people who want to be movie stars",
incompetent,useful skills,appear 8-
10 Public ID,"Walking Giant Oscar Statue"
15 Susc,"Strong Magnetic Fields",uncommon,per phase,1D6
15 Physical Lim,"Android physiology",frequently,greatly

Disadvantages Total: 150
Experience Spent: 0
Total Points: 350

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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 98 13:08:50
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: 350 point character ANOTHER TRY
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On Sun, 15 Mar 1998 05:00:39 -0600, "Guy Hoyle"
dlindman@intelectinc.com wrote:

>15 Distinctive,"Looks like the 'Oscar' statue",concealable,
> major
>15 Psych Lim,"Fascinated by humanity",very common,moderate
>10 Psych Lim,"Android Rights Supporter",uncommon,strong
>15 Psych Lim,"Code against killing",common,strong
>5 Hunted,"Hollywood producers, Motion Picture Academy",less
> powerful,non-combat influence,mild,appear 8-
>15 Hunted,"Crazed movie star",less powerful,non-combat
> influence,harsh,appear 11-
>15 Hunted,"Crazed scientist (wants to take Oscar apart)",as
> powerful,harsh,appear 11-
>10 Hunted, terrorists,as powerful,harsh,appear 8-
>10 DNPC,"Various people who want to be movie stars",
> incompetent,useful skills,appear 8-
>10 Public ID,"Walking Giant Oscar Statue"
>15 Susc,"Strong Magnetic Fields",uncommon,per phase,1D6
>15 Physical Lim,"Android physiology",frequently,greatly

Love it!
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "dflacks" <dflacks@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Only in Hero ID
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 08:45:54 -0500
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One of my favorite characters to run has OIHID on most of his powers.
OIHID has become the central aspect of the character in fact. This
character, currently called S.T.R.I.D.E.R. has gone through many revisions
for differnent style campains, and as use as an NPC for my own campaigns.

Darien raised some good points. Here's how my character would fit them. I
think he is a good candidate for OIHID.

> Only in hero ID is only appropriate if...
> - the character spends a significant amount of (campaign) time in normal
> ID...

A key point. S.T.R.I.D.E.R.'s powers all work from an END Reserve. This
End Reserve has OIHID, but the REC associated with it was bought with Only
In Normal ID. We decided to give that the same 1/4 limitation as OIHID.
This means that every action taken in hero mode depletes his Reserve, and
if he does not spend significent time in normal mode, he will have no END
available as a hero when he really needs it. Secondly, he has an
accidently change to normal mode when his reserve is running low. So if he
doesn't spend time in normal mode he might revert to it in the middle of
super combat. That hurts, big time.

> - the character's normal ID can get into situations where he wants to use
> the power...
> - the power is really unavailable or significantly less useful while in
> normal ID (i.e. the hero can't simply change into hero ID with no
> repercussions and use the power--i.e. the power is a defense, the hero
> doesn't have instant change, or has to protect a secret ID, etc.)

He has a Secret ID to protect as well. While he does have instant change
the process has been defined as very flashy. IE. a burst of multicoloured
light almost, but not quite, up to Flash power levels. Luckily, Since I
planned to have the character spend a lot of time in normal ID, his normal
ID is a bit more powerful that some. In normal ID he is closer to a
heroic level character (75+75 Disadavatage). This lets him hold his own
against street punks, and even some agent types. He is still cannon fodder
to a supervillian though. As it should be for a normal ID.
He also tends to glow as a hero, which makes stealth very difficult. Much
easier to sneak around in normal ID.

> - the character's hero ID only offers the character the use of the
limited
> powers, and doesn't make too many significant changes (like to psych
> lims, other disadvantages, many characteristics, and so on... for these
> concepts, multiform is more appropriate, and cleaner).

All his Psych limits are part of his normal ID. He does have some
disadvantages that are only active in hero ID, such as accidental change
and vulnerability, but these are logicaly linked to his powers.

> - the character's hero ID isn't coming from the possession of some item
> that can be taken away (use focus instead... don't use focus and OIHID
> together on the same power).

I have made several origin paths for this character over the years, as I
revised him from campaign to campaign. While he has goten his powers from
an object in one campaign. That object, a shard of the Phoenix jewell,
could not be removed while he lived so was not a focus.

BTW In the Phoenix jewell origin the legendary mystical Phoenix sealled
itself in a gem when it realized that the time of magik was fadeing.
Unlike other mystical creatures, the Phoenix was tied to the campaign
reality and could not leave the dimension. The Phoenix had planned to wait
out the time untill the next cycle of magik and then be reborn from the
gem. Seeming death and rebirth are the Phoenix way. Unfortunetly, this
time the gem was flawed and broke apart. The charcter, here callled Light
Wing, got one of the shards. In this origin he was hurted by another shard
holder (with different powers.) and had to fight a compultion to seek out
and reunite the shards. He had a code vs. killing and reuniting the shards
ment having to kill the other shard owners to get them. Of course his
hunted had no such code vs killing.

Daniel Flacks dflacks@ican.net

Give me ambiguity or give me something else
----------
> From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
>
> On Fri, 13 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:
>
> > I don't know if the above paragraph makes any sense, but anyway, can
> > somebody give me a few examples where Only in Hero ID is entirely
> > appropriate?
>
> As a GM, I only allow "Only in Hero ID" for powers where the character is
> clearly limited by not being able to use it in normal ID. For example, if
> a character spends a good amount of campaign time in normal ID (FBI
> agent), which he does in order to gain information and access that he
> might not be able to get in hero ID, and can occasionally get into a lot
> of trouble, yet is watched, and he's trying to hide the fact that he's a
> superhero from the FBI, the only in hero ID is appropriate. Characters do
> not have to have a secret ID for only in hero ID to be a limitation. For
> example, even a superhero with instant change and no secret ID is limited
> by having his Danger Sense bought "Only in hero ID." Other defenses
>
> You are astute in observing that for many concepts, multiform is more
> appropriate. Try asking the following questions:
>
> Only in hero ID is only appropriate if...
> - the character spends a significant amount of (campaign) time in normal
> ID...
> - the character's normal ID can get into situations where he wants to use
> the power...
> - the power is really unavailable or significantly less useful while in
> normal ID (i.e. the hero can't simply change into hero ID with no
> repercussions and use the power--i.e. the power is a defense, the hero
> doesn't have instant change, or has to protect a secret ID, etc.)
> - the character's hero ID only offers the character the use of the
limited
> powers, and doesn't make too many significant changes (like to psych
> lims, other disadvantages, many characteristics, and so on... for these
> concepts, multiform is more appropriate, and cleaner).
> - the character's hero ID isn't coming from the possession of some item
> that can be taken away (use focus instead... don't use focus and OIHID
> together on the same power).
>
> Some on the list have argued that "Only in HERO ID" should be listed
under
> "Conditional Power Limitation," as it was in previous editions. Whether
or
> not this is so, it makes since to compare OIHID to other conditional
> limitations. The BBB lists two, "only during laylight" and "only while
> tocuhing the ground" at -1/4.

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Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 06:57:55 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: AVLD
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At 12:39 AM 3/14/1998 -0600, Bryant Berggren wrote:
>> Oh, and it's mathematically impossible, or at least sematically
>>impossible, for "Non-resistant PD" to be a superset of "Resistant PD."
>
>What I mean is that in any standard situation (i.e. actually covered by the
>rules) where "non-resistant PD" is needed/useful (such as against normal
>damage attacks), your resistant and non-resistant defenses count as a single
>total.
>
>Of course, by the book, the attack is illegal, since the description of AVLD
>explicitly limits it to Flash, Mental, or Power Defense -- but I'm assuming
>the presence of a house rule here. :]

Oh, yes. Another part of this was my trying to come up with defenses
that might be appropriate for AVLD. (This was during the Hero3 era, and
IIRC the original Hero3 writeup for AVLD only gave those three defenses as
*examples.* Someone else might be able to correct me on this.)
What I considered appropriate had to have these attributes: 1. It's
scalable by value, not an all-or-nothing Power. 2. Some characters would
have it, and others wouldn't. 3. There would be at least some cases where
it's present -- and preferably most, but not all -- where the value would
be small enough that *some* STUN would get through. 4. It doesn't have any
*real* upper limit. 5. The defense is good for something other than
defending against AVLD attacks. 6. The price is such that one can
reasonably expect a character to have 16 points in it as well as one might
expect a character to have 42 PD/ED (these numbers representing the average
roll in a typical 60AP campaign).
That gave me: Armor PD, Armor ED, Force Field ED, Force Field PD,
Knockback Resistance, Lack of Weakness, Non-resistant ED, Non-resistant PD,
and Resistance (the Talent).
I think I've created characters in the past with AVLD vs Knockback
Resistance and AVLD vs Lack of Weakness, but I don't recall the Special
Effects (except that the LoW one was starting to become a fairly common
weapon among villains -- but then again, six of my ten PCs at the time had
Lack of Weakness).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 08:08:05 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: huge dudes with capes
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Something I wonder about here is when I read that people like high powered
campaigns... 300, 400, 500+ point characters. How do you present a credible
threat to a group of monstrosities like that and yet still have a planet
left? I tried this for a while and quickly came to the conclusion that the
world would be unrecognizable and difficult to maintain with bad guys that
could give a group of heroes with that much power a challenge.

So this is the question people, what do you do with a campaign like that?

----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 09:06:57 -0800
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <scm@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: huge dudes with capes
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At 08:08 AM 3/15/98 -0800, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>Something I wonder about here is when I read that people like high powered
>campaigns... 300, 400, 500+ point characters. How do you present a credible
>threat to a group of monstrosities like that and yet still have a planet
>left? I tried this for a while and quickly came to the conclusion that the
>world would be unrecognizable and difficult to maintain with bad guys that
>could give a group of heroes with that much power a challenge.

I enjoy a range of power levels when I run, but when I want world-savin'
superheroes, I run 400 point games. The world was not noticeably different
than ours because there are very few superheroes or villains, and plots
tied into one another (it's easier for me to accept that one villain
mastermind could send bad guys at our heroes time after time -- the
villains becoming more savvy -- than it would be for me to accept new
villain team after new villain team). The threats along these lines --
teams or big bad supervillains -- are rare, with most being of a second
sort (see below), which keeps the world as "normal" or close to ours as
possible.

However, the vast majority of the threats the PCs faced were against
villains physically not even close their own power level, but who wielded
social and political power. And because the PCs were true heroes who cared
about their images and the law, they had to work (read: roleplay) to solve
problems without their powers.


Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
http://www.mactyre.net

A flung stone has always been a fool's favorite means of putting himself on
a level with the wise.
-- Edgar Pangborn

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Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 09:11:51 -0800
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <scm@mactyre.net>
Subject: Bruce Harlick Chat Info
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As I'm sure most of you have already heard, RTG is downsizing and cutting
back on its production schedule. Bruce Harlick will be in #herochat (on
DALnet) on March 22nd, from 1-2 PM PST, to discuss what this means for Hero
Games (both Fourth edition and Fuzion). He'll also be answering your
questions about anything Hero, so come on by!

This will be Bruce's second visit; for information about his previous chat,
as well as transcripts of chats with Steve Long and Aaron Allston, visit
the #herochat website at http://www.mactyre.net/scm/Herochat.html. We hope
to see you there!



Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
http://www.mactyre.net

A flung stone has always been a fool's favorite means of putting himself on
a level with the wise.
-- Edgar Pangborn

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From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Re: huge dudes with capes
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 11:49:59 CST
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> Something I wonder about here is when I read that people like high powered
> campaigns... 300, 400, 500+ point characters. How do you present a credible
> threat to a group of monstrosities like that and yet still have a planet
> left? I tried this for a while and quickly came to the conclusion that the
> world would be unrecognizable and difficult to maintain with bad guys that
> could give a group of heroes with that much power a challenge.
>
> So this is the question people, what do you do with a campaign like that?

It's not the points, it's the players. For example - I am currently
running an unlimited-points campaign... Characters run between 500 and
700 pts... But the biggest active is 120 pts, and characters buy contacts,
and stuff.

Actually, it's set in Seattle (my childhood home) and the original
characters were exposed to a substance which gave them all paranormal
powers (in 1990, it was a 250 pt. campaign)...

The organization which did this has tried to eliminate them and was eventually
driven out of business - and just recently the remnants of that became
Genocide (one of the "spouses" of the PCs was kidnapped - the bad guys
know some of the original team's ids - and the team was ordered by the bad
guys to "stay inside your base this weekend - anyone flying around, anyone
outside - even in your secret ids - and she's dead, just like you pulled
the trigger yourselves and killed her" - so that's what they did)...
[and yes, the players HATED that, but it was EVIL, and they love how evil
their nemesis are...]

Oh, sure, the team's got a Canadian member now, and has been in outer
space (once, and it still causes problems) and they had to testify before
the Senate Judiciary committee (which one of the PC's parents, his
estranged father - who doesn't know he's a paranormal - sits on)...

But as long as the players are into the game, you can keep it coherent -
there's a rival evil team which has evolved with the PC team, and acts
as a balancer...


Now, the other game I'm in is a 400-600 pt. "space hero" game (set in
2397). Earth erupted into a civil war in the middle of all of this,
and the PCs tipped the balance in favor of the rebels (yes, my high-
powered flying brick went toe-to-toe with the would-be-dictator in a
mean alien battlesuit...)

It's a combination of Superfriends meets Babylon 5 meets Star Trek...
And it would not be nearly as cool if the players weren't who they
are (and if my character wasn't the leader, I hope)...


The idea is to have fun, and use points as a balancing tool - not as a
limiting factor...


DonM.
--
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
==========================================================================

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Re: huge dudes with capes
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 11:52:45 CST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> I enjoy a range of power levels when I run, but when I want world-savin'
> superheroes, I run 400 point games. The world was not noticeably different
> than ours because there are very few superheroes or villains, and plots
> tied into one another (it's easier for me to accept that one villain
> mastermind could send bad guys at our heroes time after time -- the
> villains becoming more savvy -- than it would be for me to accept new
> villain team after new villain team). The threats along these lines --
> teams or big bad supervillains -- are rare, with most being of a second
> sort (see below), which keeps the world as "normal" or close to ours as
> possible.

Agreed - new team of the week never works, at any power level...

> However, the vast majority of the threats the PCs faced were against
> villains physically not even close their own power level, but who wielded
> social and political power. And because the PCs were true heroes who cared
> about their images and the law, they had to work (read: roleplay) to solve
> problems without their powers.

and trying to find allies in that political framework...
BTW, I misplaced your PRIMUS stuff, what congressional committee do you have
performing "oversight"? We use the Senate Judiciary committee (you know,
the ones who did 'Anita Hill'), but I'm curious as to what others use...



DonM.
--
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
==========================================================================

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 13:57:57 -0500
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: RE: Sidekick
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> Anyone out there using Sidekick to help run combat? I need to customize
the amount of
> characters, add more or delete some.
>

At the risk of sounding ignorant, what is "Sidekick?"

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 13:58:01 -0500
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: 350 point character ANOTHER TRY
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Very interesting. The "Android Rights Supporter" is a nice touch. I
especially like the fact that he looks like the Oscar statue -- I hope the
GM has a sense of humor :-).

I noticed that the only Martial maneuvers he has that do damage are the
Nerve Strike (for 6d6 NND) and the Killing Strike (for 2d6 HKA, 4d6 w/
STR); I think this shows an admirable amount of restraint, since for the
expenditure of 4 points (for a Martial Strike), the character could be
dealing out 20d6 damage in HtH!

On a nit-picky note, I'm curious why the majority of the character's
Strength is listed with the powers since, as far as I can see, there are no
limitations on it that would preclude it simply being listed with the other
stats. As near as I can tell, the character simply has a 50 STR, plain and
simple.

Also, isn't the "-1" a little generous for the lim on the Mental Defense,
or are machine-targeted mental powers relatively common in the game? I
would have thought "-1/4" would have been closer to the mark.

Jeff Reid

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 13:58:05 -0500
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Only in Hero ID
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> One of the key diferences in the two is damage carryover. In OIHID
> damage to one persona is damage to the other.
> In multiform, short of death, damage to one form has no effect on the
> other (unlike duplication).

What gives you that impression? My initial reaction was that you were nuts,
but I decided to check the rules just to be sure. Interestingly enough, the
Multiform listing in the Hero Rulesbook doesn't mention damage carryover
one way or the other, so I suppose that there's room for debate. I would
like to hear what others have to say on the subject before I can accept
what seems to me to be a counterintuitive rules interpretation.

Jeff Reid

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X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 11:02:13 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: huge dudes with capes
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>> So this is the question people, what do you do with a campaign like that?

>The organization which did this has tried to eliminate them and was eventually
>driven out of business - and just recently the remnants of that became
>Genocide (one of the "spouses" of the PCs was kidnapped - the bad guys
>know some of the original team's ids - and the team was ordered by the bad
>guys to "stay inside your base this weekend - anyone flying around, anyone
>outside - even in your secret ids - and she's dead, just like you pulled
>the trigger yourselves and killed her" - so that's what they did)...
>[and yes, the players HATED that, but it was EVIL, and they love how evil
>their nemesis are...

And that WORKED?? with 700 points there is no way in HELL Genocide would
get away with that... how could they tell? detect what, your power pool
that negates detects? Invisibility, speed, what exactly did they spend
their points on? For that kind of points and a 120 pt power pool theres
nowhere on earth they could hide...

----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 11:06:25 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: huge dudes with capes
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><< So this is the question people, what do you do with a campaign like that?
>>>
>
> Why not ask the Avengers, of the Fantastic Four, or the Justice League,
>or...
>
> You have thousands upon thousands of examples of stories involving heroes
>that would most certainly have over 300+ Pts in a Champions game. Draw from
>your available sources. ;)

ummm except if you ran those scenarios in a Champions game they would turn
out considerably different. Using comics for a campaign is pretty
ineffective, although you can get ideas from them... just how long would a
character like Storm or Cyke last in a Champs game (all attack hmm no
defenses...)

----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 11:12:52 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Subject: Re: huge dudes with capes
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Christopher Taylor wrote:
>
> Something I wonder about here is when I read that people like high powered
> campaigns... 300, 400, 500+ point characters. How do you present a credible
> threat to a group of monstrosities like that and yet still have a planet
> left? I tried this for a while and quickly came to the conclusion that the
> world would be unrecognizable and difficult to maintain with bad guys that
> could give a group of heroes with that much power a challenge.
>
> So this is the question people, what do you do with a campaign like that?

Well, alot of it has to do with genre limitations.

A game that powerful really needs to do some level of 'reality
modification'.

Why don't the guys with earth shattering strength start smashing holes
in the
planet or conquering nations? Why don't the super genius types start
patenting
their devices and putting out super gear on an assembly line?
Genre.
If you want a game were people act and think within the same bounds as
they
do in the real world, you're going to have trouble most likely before
you even reach
250 points. Look at the MiricleMan comic book for an idea of what could
happen if the
super's really acted like they had the same mindset as the rest of us.
Their world got
ripped more and more to shreds with each issue. Till it frankly became
disturbing to read.
So in this big, world-saving 3-500+ point game you need to simply set
some
limits on what things will happen, and how reality works. Why don't they
mass produce the
super tech? Because they don't, or can't. Why don't they just conquer
the world? Because
it just doesn't work that way.
The best way to sum this up is too look at a four color comic book.
People just don't
act that way in real life. But they do in comics.
I run a world saving type of game. My power level for it is a little
low. The PC's are
just a notch above the BBB characters. But they're the second generation
of a team who's former
and now missing members would be in that 3-500 point scale (I don't use
point limits, but power
limits not based on active points, so that's a guess.). And these
current PC's will expect to
have to deal with some of the opponants their predessors had to deal
with.
My super-world holds it's together by making certain genre statements
and sticking to
them. Things like anyone with power by default becomes a hero or
villian. They don't just live
normal lives with their powers. Villian's do give James Bond style
deathtraps and speaches rather
than just shooting the guy or going after his kid sister. Heroes do stop
to help old ladies accross
the street. Super tech just doesn't work in the hands of those who
didn't make it.

Etc...

The 3-500 point setting is going fall apart in a more realistic
setting. It's really best for
a four color game, or at least one which sets certain paradigms on
character behaivior.
The concepts of four color vs. realistic extend far further than the
plots. They extend into
the way the heroes and villians act, the way society accepts them, the
way the powers work, the kinds
of origins one finds, and much, much, more.

--
Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role
Playing

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Re: huge dudes with capes
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 13:33:31 CST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> And that WORKED?? with 700 points there is no way in HELL Genocide would
> get away with that... how could they tell? detect what, your power pool
> that negates detects? Invisibility, speed, what exactly did they spend
> their points on? For that kind of points and a 120 pt power pool theres
> nowhere on earth they could hide...

Ah... but they were counting on the heroes' sense of honor and fair
play, and the fact that they were holding a gun to their head (oh, and
the fact that as derived from the group what originally accidentally
gave the PCs their powers to start with, they had weapons what could
turn those powers off...)

And sure, the heroes knew exactly where she was being held - but if they
went there, she was dead, and it was across the border in Canada (before
a Canadian joined the team), etc...

Genocide wasn't trying to hide - they just wanted some time to retrieve
certain "research materials" they wanted...

And who lets 120 pt. VPPs in their game (well, ok, my Seattle game has a
mage with such), but only one... And negating detects? Why would I let
someone in with that? Just because it's unlimited points doesn't mean
I let anything in - what's your character's schtick? Stick to that...

The team is fast; several members fly; one person's real fast, one's real
strong and flies, one's real strong and walks - no overlapping schticks,
and narrow definitions for characters, and tight GM reign on special
effects. In other words, a high-powered game requires the same care as
a low-powered one...


DonM.
--
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
==========================================================================

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 11:33:39 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Only in Hero ID
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> > One of the key diferences in the two is damage carryover. In OIHID
> > damage to one persona is damage to the other.
> > In multiform, short of death, damage to one form has no effect on the
> > other (unlike duplication).
>
> What gives you that impression? My initial reaction was that you were nuts,
> but I decided to check the rules just to be sure. Interestingly enough, the
> Multiform listing in the Hero Rulesbook doesn't mention damage carryover
> one way or the other, so I suppose that there's room for debate. I would
> like to hear what others have to say on the subject before I can accept
> what seems to me to be a counterintuitive rules interpretation.

Simple. It never says it does. So it doesn't. Especially since
duplication
shows how it does for that power.
Multiform is a power that gives you two seperate bodies. Why should
hurting
one hurt the other.
Note that duplication only hurts the other forms when they recombine,
thus
adding the injury in from the hurt form.
Champions III where the powers Duplication and Multiform originate had
multiform
having a rule very similar to duplication. That rule was removed in
fourth edition.
Possibly as a result of character concepts like MiracleMan. Adding it
back in is simple
to do with a limitation.


--
Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role
Playing

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: huge dudes with capes
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 14:38:13 -0500 (EST)
Organization: VTSFFC
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> campaigns... 300, 400, 500+ point characters. How do you present a credible
> threat to a group of monstrosities like that and yet still have a planet

Hurm. Well, I've been in games that started out at 250 and had built
their way into the 450-500 point range by Exp accumulation over the
years, and didn't change all that much.
Depends on how one builds and how one plays. Very little of the experience
went towards increasing damage (Attackes migrated from 10DC's to 12 DC's
in most cases) or defenses. On the other hand, everybody got to be darned
versitile.

Daniel Pawtowski


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 11:41:19 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Subject: Re: huge dudes with capes
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> ><< So this is the question people, what do you do with a campaign like that?
> >
> > Why not ask the Avengers, of the Fantastic Four, or the Justice League,
> >or...
> > You have thousands upon thousands of examples of stories involving heroes
> >that would most certainly have over 300+ Pts in a Champions game. Draw from
> >your available sources. ;)
>
> ummm except if you ran those scenarios in a Champions game they would turn
> out considerably different. Using comics for a campaign is pretty
> ineffective, although you can get ideas from them... just how long would a
> character like Storm or Cyke last in a Champs game (all attack hmm no
> defenses...)

Well, I think the idea here is twofold.
1) If you added those characters as written into a champions game, you
would run
that game according to the genre conventions of the comics they came
from.
Lethal attacks simply wouldn't hit, they'd only be for dramatic flair.
Seemingly
lethal attacks that did hit would actually be normal attacks.
Character's with HKA/RKA's
like Wolverine would only use them on innanimate objects or in dramatic
scenes that had
been accompanied by lots of plot build up.

2) The idea I'm seeing presented by this person is to look at how these
powerful heroes act. And
how the villians they fight act. And how the world they live in acts.
Such a high power
world has to run under diferent genre conventions than a lower power
game.


--
Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role
Playing

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Re: huge dudes with capes
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 14:06:33 CST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> A game that powerful really needs to do some level of 'reality
> modification'.
>
> Why don't the guys with earth shattering strength start smashing holes
> in the
> planet or conquering nations? Why don't the super genius types start
> patenting
> their devices and putting out super gear on an assembly line?

Smashing holes in the planet? You ever try to move-through the planet?
It doesn't go anywhere, doesn't take much body and you feel reeeeaaaalll
bad afterward all over...

And the super-genius types can patent their devices (but the bad guys
don't *pay*, they *take*). Building a factory gives the GM a target,
except the character sets up the battle terrain :)

> Genre.
> If you want a game were people act and think within the same bounds as
> they
> do in the real world, you're going to have trouble most likely before
> you even reach
> 250 points. Look at the MiricleMan comic book for an idea of what could
> happen if the
> super's really acted like they had the same mindset as the rest of us.
> Their world got
> ripped more and more to shreds with each issue. Till it frankly became
> disturbing to read.

I'm sorry - didn't read MM.

> So in this big, world-saving 3-500+ point game you need to simply set
> some
> limits on what things will happen, and how reality works. Why don't they
> mass produce the
> super tech? Because they don't, or can't. Why don't they just conquer
> the world? Because
> it just doesn't work that way.
> The best way to sum this up is too look at a four color comic book.
> People just don't
> act that way in real life. But they do in comics.
> I run a world saving type of game. My power level for it is a little
> low. The PC's are
> just a notch above the BBB characters. But they're the second generation
> of a team who's former
> and now missing members would be in that 3-500 point scale (I don't use
> point limits, but power
> limits not based on active points, so that's a guess.). And these
> current PC's will expect to
> have to deal with some of the opponants their predessors had to deal
> with.
> My super-world holds it's together by making certain genre statements
> and sticking to
> them. Things like anyone with power by default becomes a hero or
> villian. They don't just live
> normal lives with their powers. Villian's do give James Bond style
> deathtraps and speaches rather
> than just shooting the guy or going after his kid sister. Heroes do stop
> to help old ladies accross
> the street. Super tech just doesn't work in the hands of those who
> didn't make it.

Heh... Genre convention. "Why x?"

> The 3-500 point setting is going fall apart in a more realistic
> setting. It's really best for
> a four color game, or at least one which sets certain paradigms on
> character behaivior.
> The concepts of four color vs. realistic extend far further than the
> plots. They extend into
> the way the heroes and villians act, the way society accepts them, the
> way the powers work, the kinds
> of origins one finds, and much, much, more.

Bingo. Well, I throw some realism into my unlimited points game, but
there's the 'Darth Vader' guy who survived the destruction of the evil
alien attack ship and made it to Earth, and the tin-horned dictator
with diplomatic immunity who's his pal... The French Colonel with
UNTIL connections who's trying to help them... The GENOCIDE guys who
are willing to cut deals for alien technology in the name of genetic
purity...


DonM.

--
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
==========================================================================

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: shelley@mail.mactyre.net
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 12:16:28 -0800
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <scm@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: huge dudes with capes
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 27

At 11:52 AM 3/15/98 CST, Don McKinney wrote:
>> However, the vast majority of the threats the PCs faced were against
>> villains physically not even close their own power level, but who wielded
>> social and political power. And because the PCs were true heroes who cared
>> about their images and the law, they had to work (read: roleplay) to solve
>> problems without their powers.
>
>and trying to find allies in that political framework...
>BTW, I misplaced your PRIMUS stuff, what congressional committee do you have
>performing "oversight"? We use the Senate Judiciary committee (you know,
>the ones who did 'Anita Hill'), but I'm curious as to what others use...

PRIMUS gets treated the same way as the FBI, in terms of congressional
oversight and funding; in all reality, I waffle between *wanting* them to
be independent or a division of the FBI. But don't tell the Golden Avenger
I said that! =)

Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
http://www.mactyre.net

A flung stone has always been a fool's favorite means of putting himself on
a level with the wise.
-- Edgar Pangborn

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Re: huge dudes with capes
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 14:32:13 CST
Cc: dmckinne@tornado.cmi.csc.com, champ-l@omg.org
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> >and trying to find allies in that political framework...
> >BTW, I misplaced your PRIMUS stuff, what congressional committee do you have
> >performing "oversight"? We use the Senate Judiciary committee (you know,
> >the ones who did 'Anita Hill'), but I'm curious as to what others use...
>
> PRIMUS gets treated the same way as the FBI, in terms of congressional
> oversight and funding; in all reality, I waffle between *wanting* them to
> be independent or a division of the FBI. But don't tell the Golden Avenger
> I said that! =)

We also played with a second paranormal group that operated under the
auspices of the Secret Service; however, it caused too many problems,
so we had Congress not give it any money...


DonM.

--
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
==========================================================================

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Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 21:54:20 +0000
Subject: RE: Sidekick
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> At the risk of sounding ignorant, what is "Sidekick?"

A combat manager for Hero System. Great for Champions, not so good
for Heroic level campaigns.

I prefer Hero Dice and Combat Sequencer--a pair of programs designed
to work together.

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

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Reply-To: <dflacks@ican.net>
From: "dflacks" <dflacks@ican.net>
Subject: Ecto-Man
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 17:12:30 -0500
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I am designing a character for a new campaign and could use some
suggestions from the creative people on the list. I am looking at a kind
of living ghost. IE, someone with ghostly powers without actually being
Undead. Perhaps a comatose man projecting his mind or someone who
physically died but mentally continued.

His body is made of ectoplasm, and is a physical manifestation of his mind.
His powers all stem from his Ecto-body. Since he is not Undead he can
not terrify people by saying boo, or do damage by howling, etc.

Some power ideas I am currently considering are;

1) Teleportation. Since his physical body is a manifestation of his mind,
he can choose to manifest wherever he likes. I would restrict this to
places he knows or can see. No teleportation through a wall if you cant
see what is on the other side. When T-porting he would simple create a new
body at the new location. His old body would go through rapid changes of
state as his dissolves. First melting to a puddle like a candle, then
evaporating into a gas and finally loosing all physical structure. I would
probably slow this process down for visual effect. His new body is created
instantly when he t-ports but his old body take a turn to fully dissolve.
Nice visuals.

2) Desolid. His ectoplasm body only interacts with reality if he wants it
to. I like the invisible effects advantage here. Killer Kaboom man
throws a grenade at Ecto-man. Visually he gets splashed all over by the
explosion, but pulls himself back together immediately. More nice visuals.
He may or may not be able to pass through walls. I havent decided which
is better.

3) Regeneration or Aid. Since his body is only a manifestation of his
mind made out of ectoplasm, and he can summon more ectoplasm for a new body
when he t-ports, then he can summon more ectoplasm to regenerate damages.
He would be able to regrow limbs. Alternately a healing aid linked to the
teleportation. His newly created body doesnt have the same damage as his
old body. Firebird fries Ecto-man then stares open mouthed as his body
melts away and he reappears a few feet away no longer singed.

4) Entangle. Throwing sticky globs of ectoplasm at his targets. Ive been
slimed!!

5) Growth. I dont like this one but it fits the theme. If he can summon
extra ectoplasm for other needs then why not to make himself bigger. I
wont be using this because for two reasons. Firstly I dont want a giant
brick type for this character, I dont see strength as being his forte.
Secondly, Having a giant ectoplasmic entity roaming the city is just asking
the GM to bring out those four guys in the repainted hearse with the proton
packs. Whos the GM going to call...

6) Stretching. Twisting his ectoplasmic body into new and interesting
shapes. Nice visuals, but as I dont see strength being his thing, I
probably wouldnt bother with this either.

Disadvantage: Takes body damage from ego attacks. Since his body is a
manifestation of metal energy, it is physically effected by mental energy.
Note: Since he is not 'Undead' he is not adversly effected by religous
icons, sunlight, etc.

Does anybody have any suggestions. The character currently has no real
offensive capacity, apart from the entangle. How is he supported to stop
the bad guys. Remember he is not Undead and therefore doesnt have any
of the traditional spooky attacks.

Another problems is what happens if he is knocked unconscious? Since his
ecto-body is a manifestation of his mind, knocking him unconscious should
start the dissolve process. This if fine if he is CON stunned as he can
literally pull himself together, but if he is damaged into negative stun
his body could dissolve before he recovers. The villains could never
capture him because he would dissolve away. Alternately, if his teammates
leave or a captured, how is he to find them again. If he remanifests
himself where he was knocked unconscious everyone could be long gone. Does
this need to be modelled, and how would you do it. A triggered Desolid
with 0 END sounds right, except that being physically non-existent he would
not be vulnerable to ANY attacks. Perhaps his subconscious mind can
maintain his ecto-body, or maybe it takes days for his ectobodies to
dissolve? Little puddles of disolving ecto-slime left behind for days
whenever he teleports. I don't paticularly like that idea.

I dont have a problem with him dissolving away but I think the GM might be
upset with a character who can not be captured by the villains.

Any help would be appreciated. When I finish the design I will may post
it to the list if people want to see it. Unlike my ghostly character, I
think I am thick skinned enough to take the inevitable responses.


Daniel Flacks dflacks@ican.net

Give me ambiguity or give me something else

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X-Sender: h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 09:13:30 +1100
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Only in Hero ID
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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At 01:45 PM 3/13/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>I've been wondering about the limitation "Only in Hero ID". I once played
>in a campaign where they did not allow this limitation, because they said
>you could tack it onto everything and get a bunch of free points for it.

Only if there is a distinct hero ID _and_ the character _genuinely_ can't
use the power. As examples of when it's valid there's the Blue version of
Superman where Clark Kent has only Instant Change as power. Or Iron Man
where there is a lot of time spent as Tony Stark. It's not valid for a
character who choses not to use a power, there has to be a genuine reason.

> I
>had never thought about it before then, but the comments they made have had
>me wondering about this limitation for years....
>
>I think maybe the BBB uses a Thor-like character as an example...I'm not
>sure, but that's always the image that comes to mind. Anyway, with this
>limitation, his Secret ID is not able to use any powers, but once he
>becomes a hero he gets this big hammer and some powers. But how does the
>secret ID *become* the hero? Does he have "Instant Change" which is
>available at all times, and then everything else is Only in Hero ID?

Well Thor (let's face it that's what they're modelling the example on) had
Instant Change with the limitation that he had to strike his walking stick
on the ground. A few times that caused problems as he didn't have the
stick. (Instant Change limitation IA focus? Maybe even OA focus)

He also had the limitation/disadvantage that he would revert back to
mortal form if he was away from his hammer for 60 seconds.

> It
>seems to make more sense to use Multiform, where one form is the Secret ID
>and the other is the god of thunder.

It does for that example, I think Iron Man would be the best example of an
Only In Secret Id that I can think of off hand. His armoured suit has only
been taken away on a couple of occasions in 20 or more years so it's not a
focus, but Tony Stark can't fire repulsar rays without it.

I think the problem with modelling only in hero ID with Multiform is that
it's not always appropriate, to quote Multiform "A character with this
Special Power can have several different forms, each with its own
personality, Characteristics, and Powers."

I think that there has to be a fair amount of emphasis on the "each with
its own personality" myself. I'd also venture to suggest that simulating it
with Multiform raises problems of it's own. I mean you can get a _lot_ of
skills from a 250 point character if you don't buy powers or need brickish
characteristics.

Let's also not forget that Only In Hero ID is a -1/4 limitation. You can
probably save _more_ points by doing it as a Multiform if you want the God
Of Thunder type of stuff, provided that you gave the human form different
skills (the Norse God Of Thunder may not be able to drive a car, wouldn't
know much science etc).

> Maybe what I'm trying to say (I'm not
>sure, myself) is that Only in Hero ID seems to be a way of doing Multiform
>but without writing up two character sheets.

Well the character I'm writing up useing it is a Cyberkinetic who's made
himself a battlesuit. The battle suit provides most of his pysical
statistics and physical powers but he has access to his mental powers at
all times. I didn't want the suit to be taken away as often as a Focus
could be but there are definately times when the character should not have
access to his physical powers, e.g. he's attending an exhibition of Central
American artifacts when the museam is attacked.

The character doesn't have Instant Change.

I consider that a genuine limitation, if the character isn't expecting
trouble he's not wearing the suit, but if he is expecting trouble he's got it.

> Using Only in Hero ID, it
>seems like you could buy all of your superhuman characteristics with Only
>in Hero ID and save a whole mess of points....

But then how many could you save with the Multiform approach? I mean if
you have both the super form and normal form having the human form's skills
then probably you pay a bit, but if you change the scores etc you can end
up with a lot of potential for abuse.
>
>I don't know if the above paragraph makes any sense, but anyway, can
>somebody give me a few examples where Only in Hero ID is entirely
>appropriate?
>

I've listed a couple above. Other examples of Only In Hero ID for me are

Batman's utility belt - I've seen it taken away about twice when he had it
on.
also his body armour and probably presence.

Johnny Quick's speed powers; he had to use a mantra to trigger his speed
powers but there was no other discernable difference between him using the
powers and not using the powers. So I don't consider that a reasonable one
for Multiform.

The people in Dial H For Hero may have a variable power pool with various
limitations which is only in hero ID. (Note I only ever saw them in one
comic in the early 80s so I could be wrong)

****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
h_laws@tassie.net.au

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:10:17 +1100
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 350 point character ANOTHER TRY
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At 05:00 AM 3/15/98 -0600, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>Thanks very much for all the suggestions I've received about my character
for
>a 350-point campaign. I've done a lot of tinkering with the character, and
>have hopefully brought him up to code, but if you notice any changes I can
>make for the best, please let me know.
>
>
>Oscar's android physiology means that anyone attempting to use the Paramedic
>skill upon him must also have Electronic, Mechanics, or some related skill
to
>make some sense out of his construction.
>
>15/50 STR 5
>23 DEX 39
>33 CON 46
>12 BODY 4
>18 INT 8
>10 EGO 0
>23 PRE 13
>20 COM 5
>7/14 PD 4
>14 ED 7
>5 SPD 17
>10/17 REC 0
>50 END -8
>37/54 STUN 0
>Characteristics Cost: 140
>
>32 Damage Class +8DC

that's a lot of +DC imo. with str 50 you could be doing 22D6 damage if you
pick up offensive strike.

>4 Martial Block
>4 Martial Disarm
>4 Martial Dodge
>3 Martial Throw
>4 Nerve Strike
>3 Martial Grab
>4 Killing Strike

With Code Versus Killing? a 9 DC killing strike doesn't really go with that.

>2 7 Mental Defense,Not vs. mental powers targeted vs.
> machines(-1)

Depends, if the campaign is using TUM then that would be the default.

>5 5 Power Defense
>7 1 BODY Regen,Not in strong magnetic fields(-1/2)

I'd put that at -1/4 myself.

>54 18/18 Armor
>30 Life Support,doesn't breathe,doesn't eat/sleep/excrete,safe
> in vacuum/pressure,safe in radiation,safe in heat/cold,
> immune to disease,immune to aging
>3 Acrobatics 14-
>3 Breakfall 14-
>3 Climbing 14-
>3 Lockpicking 14-
>3 Stealth 14-
>3 Conversation 14-
>3 Sleight Of Hand 14-
>-2 0" Swimming 0
>0 10" Superleap 5
>35 50 STR 3

Why is the strength a power?
>
>Powers Cost: 210
>Total Cost: 350
>
>Base Points: 200
>15 Distinctive,"Looks like the 'Oscar' statue",concealable,
> major

not that concealable.

>15 Psych Lim,"Fascinated by humanity",very common,moderate
>10 Psych Lim,"Android Rights Supporter",uncommon,strong
>15 Psych Lim,"Code against killing",common,strong
>5 Hunted,"Hollywood producers, Motion Picture Academy",less
> powerful,non-combat influence,mild,appear 8-
>15 Hunted,"Crazed movie star",less powerful,non-combat
> influence,harsh,appear 11-
>15 Hunted,"Crazed scientist (wants to take Oscar apart)",as
> powerful,harsh,appear 11-
>10 Hunted, terrorists,as powerful,harsh,appear 8-
>10 DNPC,"Various people who want to be movie stars",
> incompetent,useful skills,appear 8-
>10 Public ID,"Walking Giant Oscar Statue"
>15 Susc,"Strong Magnetic Fields",uncommon,per phase,1D6
>15 Physical Lim,"Android physiology",frequently,greatly

****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************

Mad Hamish

Hamish Laws
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
h_laws@tassie.net.au

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Opal@october.com (Opal)
Date: 15 Mar 98 15:24:02 -0800
Subject: Entangles as walls
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *
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>I'm kind of curious where the idea of using an entangle as a
> created wall
>came from - it seems to be less intuitive than a lot of stuff in
> the HERO
>system. Can anyone explain it?
>

It's been there since the first edition (back when Entangles -
and objects in general - only had BOD, not DEF. I think that
made it into Murphy's Rules, something about Tank front armor
having 16 BOD, and a normal could beat through it with his fists
in a few minutes). The phrasing was something like 'Entangle
can also be used to create a barrier in one hex.'
___
* OFFLINE 1.58

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Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 19:00:50 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Only in Hero ID
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>It does for that example, I think Iron Man would be the best example of an
>Only In Secret Id that I can think of off hand. His armoured suit has only
>been taken away on a couple of occasions in 20 or more years so it's not a
>focus, but Tony Stark can't fire repulsar rays without it.

Well, there have been plenty of situations where he has to 'sneak off' to
put on the armor - generally a pain in the behind. OIHID is only a -1/4
limitation, after all. What happens? Crisis - Tony is sitting there with his
briefcase full of armor and can't stop the criminals. He has to manage a way
to sneak off for a minute or so to don the armor (no way does he do this in
a phase), requiring stealth rolls, getting past the enemy, risking death
with no protection, etc., etc. While it's certainly true that his suit
rarely gets taken away, it's almost a staple of Iron Man that he isn't
wearing it when the crap hits the fan.

> Let's also not forget that Only In Hero ID is a -1/4 limitation. You can
>probably save _more_ points by doing it as a Multiform if you want the God
>Of Thunder type of stuff, provided that you gave the human form different
>skills (the Norse God Of Thunder may not be able to drive a car, wouldn't
>know much science etc).

Hooyeah. Characters I've built with OIHID generally save 30 points in the
process (on a 250 point character). A 30 point Multiform will get you a nice
150 point extra identity - IOW a very skilled normal. Of course, the base
form will be a little less powerful (220 points) than the OIHID form would
be, but he'll have gobs more skills. One only has to look at Jaguar to see
how *ahem* abusive this can be.

>> Maybe what I'm trying to say (I'm not
>>sure, myself) is that Only in Hero ID seems to be a way of doing Multiform
>>but without writing up two character sheets.

It can. I wrote up Cheetah from the Gold Digger comic as an OIHID - even the
'actual' Cheetah form is only a Shapeshift (and another OIHID with some
bonus powers attached). I could have done it as a Multiform, but all the
forms have the same skills and the powers vary only a little. OIHID keeps it
to one single character sheet - it's cleaner.

>>I don't know if the above paragraph makes any sense, but anyway, can
>>somebody give me a few examples where Only in Hero ID is entirely
>>appropriate?
>>

Lycanthropes come to mind. If the character keeps his 'intellect' and psych
lims across forms, I'd build it as an OIHID with a Shapeshift as the means
of swapping forms. Just attach OIHID to most of the powers and attributes.
You don't absolutely NEED multiform in this case. And if anyone wants to
bring up the matter that the animal form will have disads the base form will
not, then all shapeshifting would have to be Multiform - if I shapeshift
into a chair, I can't pick stuff up, right (and still be a chair)?

OTOH, the Hulk is a classic Multiform. Different body, different mind -
different character.

>The people in Dial H For Hero may have a variable power pool with various
>limitations which is only in hero ID. (Note I only ever saw them in one
>comic in the early 80s so I could be wrong)

Iffy. I got the impression that some of the Hero forms had thier own
disadvantages and psych lims on them. That would either mean a VPP with Side
Effects (disadvantages) or a VPP of Multiforms (stamp "GM Permission" all
over that, natch).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 19:00:58 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Ecto-Man
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>I am designing a character for a new campaign and could use some
>suggestions from the creative people on the list. I am looking at a kind
>of living ghost. IE, someone with ghostly powers without actually being
>'Undead'. Perhaps a comatose man projecting his mind or someone who
>physically died but mentally continued.

I'd direct you to check out the Spirit Rules in Horror Hero or HSA#1. Not
everyone on the list likes them, but they do cover the whole spirit angle
better than Desolid kludgyness IMHO.

>His body is made of ectoplasm, and is a physical manifestation of his mind.
> His powers all stem from his Ecto-body. Since he is not 'Undead' he can
>not terrify people by saying boo, or do damage by howling, etc.

"Boo" is a PRE Attack. I can scare people by going "Boo", given the right
setting :-). And I'm not Undead (yet)...

>Some power ideas I am currently considering are;
>
>1) Teleportation. Since his physical body is a manifestation of his mind,
>he can choose to manifest wherever he likes. I would restrict this to
>places he knows or can see.

>2) Desolid. His ectoplasm body only interacts with reality if he wants it
>to. I like the invisible effects advantage here. Killer Kaboom man
>throws a grenade at Ecto-man.

Both of these easily covered by the Spirit rules.

>3) Regeneration or Aid. Since his body is only a manifestation of his
>mind made out of ectoplasm, and he can summon more ectoplasm for a new body
>when he t-ports, then he can summon more ectoplasm to regenerate damages.
>He would be able to regrow limbs.

Spirits don't have BODY, so very few attacks affect them. In this case,
Ecto-Man could use a Transform to 'create' a body that has "BODY" and use it
as a focus to interact with the world (perhaps a focus for Telekinesis).
Ectoplasm gets destroyed? No problem, use the Transform to make another
body. Only attacks directed actually at the Spirit would really do damage).

>4) Entangle. Throwing sticky globs of ectoplasm at his targets. "I've been
>slimed!!"

Classic Entangle. No problem.

>5) Growth. I don't like this one but it fits the theme. If he can summon
>extra ectoplasm for other needs then why not to make himself bigger. I

Ah, that's where the Transform helps. More BODY generated on the Transform,
the bigger the form. The Telekinesis stays the same STR, though, so you just
look more impressive.

>6) Stretching. Twisting his ectoplasmic body into new and interesting
>shapes. Nice visuals, but as I don't see strength being his thing, I
>probably wouldn't bother with this either.

Telekinesis. Maybe with No Range Penalty.

>Disadvantage: Takes body damage from ego attacks. Since his body is a
>manifestation of metal energy, it is physically effected by mental energy.
>Note: Since he is not 'Undead' he is not adversly effected by religous
>icons, sunlight, etc.

Spirits have special rules for Vulnerabilities - like EGO attacks doing
lethal damage (in this case, damage to the EGO of the Spirit).

>Another problems is what happens if he is knocked unconscious?

Spirits don't get knocked unconcious. They don't have STUN.

>I don't have a problem with him dissolving away but I think the GM might be
>upset with a character who can not be captured by the villains.

There are means to catch Spirits (detailed in HSA#1 and Horror Hero).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 21:23:11 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks...
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> HKA? With Disarm "built in"?
> It may just be a cheesy interpretation, but it seems to me that the
> chart on page 153 of the HSR indicates that every *character* has a Disarm
> built in. The text on Disarm on page 152 implies that a hand-to-hand
> weapon -- that is, one built with HA or HKA -- can be used as a tool for
> Disarm.

Sorry to reply so late, but I've been out of town. You and Rat
both seem right in a way, however, you are wrong in assumping that only HA
or HKA can be used for a HtH weapon. I could think of ways Entangle,
Strength, Drain, RKA, EB, and a few others could do the same thing.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 22:01:18 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: RE: cybernetics
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> >While I don't regret buying Cyber Hero, it was a fairly disappointing book.
>
> I have the same feeling.

Quit saying that!

I'm getting my copy any day now, and don't want to be too down on
it. (I did get a good price.)


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 22:15:38 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Small campaign
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> Make these two PCs more of a "special ops" team - handling the
> assignments that the Champs can't, instead of the assignments the
> Champs don't want. Make them the team that goes "away saving the
> world".
>
> Just a thought.

Or make the game more of a dark(ish) champions. They handle the
things that the Champions can't get their hands dirty on. I did something
nice with this between home and school based campaigns.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 22:41:09 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Women in Champions
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> I think one of the best current books you could show a prospective
> female super-hero gamer is The Legion Of Super Heroes, in that title the
> females often are more pivotal to the story line than the males. While the
> characters are teen agers the team aspect is very important, and the
> charcters are more than one dimensional.
> Another really good teen-team book is Young Heroes In Love. While
> the title might throw you off the book is well written and reads a lot like
> a Champions game in progress. Both of those book show stong female heroes
> as real characters.

I've had luck with fans (both male and female) of "Lois and
Clark".


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 22:52:05 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Segment 12
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> Blasting the first villain who tried to attack is a new wrinkle. It seems
> to me that the PC decided not to act after all, though she is holding an
> action. If the rest of the PC's were completely clueless about the
> impending attack, she might be the only player to get a Segment 12 due to
> their surprise; but I wouldn't give her an extra attack in either
> circumstance. (However, if she had picked out a particular villain, I would
> have let her do a "Covered" maneuver before Segment 12.) I would most
> likely run this as a standard Segment 12 with everyone acting on both
> sides, since everyone knew a fight was likely to break out any second.


Nah. This is easy. She is holding an action until a villian
starts to attack. At that point it will be a Dex vs Dex roll to see who
goes first: Her, or the attacking villian.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 00:46:28 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Using HERO for nefarious purposes... (Muhahahaha!)
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> I did it once several years back for a live action game me and some friends ran at
> Technicon. My once piece of advice would be "Don't do it." I love the Hero system,
> but it doesn't scale down well. If you are determined to have a kind of Heroesque feel
> to you mechanics, try Fuzion scaled down to it's lowest complexity level (even then,
> you're probably still looking at more "rules" than I like in a LARP rule-set).

I'd have to disagree. I played in Drive-In Hero at GenCon this
past year which was, essentially, simplified live-action Hero. Worked
really well.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: nolan@pop.erols.com
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 01:56:26 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: Using HERO for nefarious purposes... (Muhahahaha!)
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<x-rich>At 12:46 AM 3/16/98 -0600, you wrote:

>

>> I did it once several years back for a live action game me and some friends ran at

>> Technicon. My once piece of advice would be "Don't do it." I love the Hero system,

>> but it doesn't scale down well. If you are determined to have a kind of Heroesque feel

>> to you mechanics, try Fuzion scaled down to it's lowest complexity level (even then,

>> you're probably still looking at more "rules" than I like in a LARP rule-set).

>

> I'd have to disagree. I played in Drive-In Hero at GenCon this

>past year which was, essentially, simplified live-action Hero. Worked

>really well.


Well? Tell us about it. How did it go?


Scott



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value."

<bold>Marechal Ferdinand Foch</bold>, 1908

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

<bold>Scott C. Nolan

nolan@erols.com</bold>

</x-rich>
Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 02:31:58 -0600
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: 350 point character ANOTHER TRY
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On 3/15/98, at 5:17 PM, Mad Hamish wrote:

>At 05:00 AM 3/15/98 -0600, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>>4 Killing Strike
>
>With Code Versus Killing? a 9 DC killing strike doesn't really go with that.

You're right. CAK was a last-minute decision; I think I'll lose it.

>
>>2 7 Mental Defense,Not vs. mental powers targeted vs.
>> machines(-1)
>
>Depends, if the campaign is using TUM then that would be the default.

That's yet another point I'll have to clear up with the GM.

>>7 1 BODY Regen,Not in strong magnetic fields(-1/2)
>
> I'd put that at -1/4 myself.

A number of people have pointed this out. I'll reduce it, and either lower the frequency of the Regen or put in another 1/4 Limitation.

>>35 50 STR 3
>
> Why is the strength a power?

It could be either a Power or a Characteristic; it didn't matter to me at the time, and it didn't seem to make a difference.

>>Base Points: 200
>>15 Distinctive,"Looks like the 'Oscar' statue",concealable,
>> major
>
>not that concealable.

Remember, this is the same genre that lets Ben Grimm walk down the street in a trenchcoat, hat and sunglasses, and nobody notices him until they bump into him <g>. However, since I'm losing CAK, I might just take that.


Guy Hoyle (ghoyle1@airmail.net)
Common problems need Uncommon Solutions!
http://www.uncommonsolutions.com

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 04:19:04 -0600
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Re: 350 point character ANOTHER TRY
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Guy Hoyle wrote:
>
> On 3/15/98, at 5:17 PM, Mad Hamish wrote:
>
> >At 05:00 AM 3/15/98 -0600, Guy Hoyle wrote:
> >>4 Killing Strike
> >
> >With Code Versus Killing? a 9 DC killing strike doesn't really go with that.
>
> You're right. CAK was a last-minute decision; I think I'll lose it.


Dont be in such a hurry. Just because you have a killing attack doesnt
mean you have to use it against living opponents. There are a variety
of non-living targets out there... robots (although the rest of your
disads may prevent you from using it against THEM), doors, walls, etc.

killing attacks and CVK are not mutually exclusive.


Todd

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 07:11:01 -0500
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Only in Hero ID
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> Simple. It never says it does. So it doesn't.

So we're to base what can be done by what the rulesbook DOESN'T say? Cool!

"Gee, the rulesbook doesn't say I CAN'T blast the villains EB with my own,
so I guess I CAN!"

Jeff Reid

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 07:11:05 -0500
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: 350 point character ANOTHER TRY
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> >4 Killing Strike
>
> With Code Versus Killing? a 9 DC killing strike doesn't really go with
that.
>

Not necessarily. Sometimes the ones who are the most averse to taking a
life are the ones who know how to do it with frightening efficiency.

...and technically, it's only a 6 DC Killing Strike (extra DC's are cut in
half, remember?).

Jeff Reid

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 07:42:25 -0600
From: John Stefanski <jstefanski@internetMCI.com>
Subject: RE: Sidekick
"champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Reply-to: "jstefanski@iname.com" <jstefanski@iname.com>
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Sidekick is a GM computer aid developed some time ago... I found it at
someone's web site and had it on diskette for some time. It will track 16
characters' STUN and BODY, has a die roller, and a speed chart for action
phases. Overall it's a pretty neat little app. I'm looking for someone
who can help me add more characters or just fine the author.
JS

========================
JS Stefanski - jstefanski@iname.com

"aut vincere aut mori" - Conquer or Die
========================

On March 15, 1998 12:58 PM, Jeff M. Reid [SMTP:Morfhis@compuserve.com]
wrote:
> > Anyone out there using Sidekick to help run combat? I need to
customize
> the amount of
> > characters, add more or delete some.
> >
>
> At the risk of sounding ignorant, what is "Sidekick?"

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Only in Hero ID
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 06:52:08 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> > Simple. It never says it does. So it doesn't.
>
> So we're to base what can be done by what the rulesbook DOESN'T say? Cool=
> !
>
> "Gee, the rulesbook doesn't say I CAN'T blast the villains EB with my own=
> ,
> so I guess I CAN!"
>
Certainly when a comment is taken that far out of context it can be
open to unusual interpretations.
Why don't you try again, this time by looking at the whole of my
argument.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:00:44 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: RE: Sidekick
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by "jstefanski@iname.com"
>Sidekick is a GM computer aid developed some time ago... I found it at
someone's web site and had it on diskette for some time. It will track 16
characters' STUN and BODY, has a die roller, and a speed chart for action
phases. Overall it's a pretty neat little app. I'm looking for someone
who can help me add more characters or just fine the author.<

I'd be interested in looking at Sidekick, if you can remember where you
found it. I've downloaded some software tools for Hero, but I thought most
of them were either a little too simplistic or else were somewhat dated and
had too many strange quirks. I had been thinking about writing a Win95 app
like this as a way to get some Visual Basic practice in, but I'd rather not
if Sidekick has the functionality I'm looking for. I'm wondering if maybe
Sidekick is one of the apps I already looked at, but I didn't realize that
"Sidekick" was its name....

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:17:50 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Shapeshifter questions
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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How would you build a character who is able to shapeshift parts of his body
in all different ways? For instance, if he wanted to fly, he could sprout
wings or a propeller out of the top of his head...his fists could turn into
hammers or big spikes or whatever... We built a character like this over
the weekend, but I'm not sure that we did it the best way. What we did was
buy powers like Flight or HKA and put "Variable Special Effects" on them
all. The only example of this from comics that I can think of is Green
Lantern...however, instead of creating the variable items from thin air,
the character we were building (named "Q"...I have no idea where that came
from, but such weirdness is typical for this player) would actually shift
parts of his body into those shapes.

Would you allow this stuff in an Elemental Control? My first instinct was
"no", but we tried using a Multipower and it was very awkward, since
several of his powers did not make sense with varying power levels...
Anyway, when I saw that it was going to be very difficult to create this
character with only 250 points, I allowed him to use an EC just so he'd
have enough points to get the basic concept down (I always think of
Multipowers as saving more points, so I'm always surprised when an EC gives
me better savings...maybe if I spent a few minutes to figure out the math,
I wouldn't be surprised anymore). As it was, we had to dump a lot of cool
ideas because we didn't have the points.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:17:51 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Modifiers to Characteristics
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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This seems like a simple question, but I had a hard time finding an answer
yesterday when flipping through the BBB and Classic Enemies for examples.
How much would it cost to put AE:Hex on your STR? The character in
question had a 30 STR, and AE:Hex is a 1/2 advantage, so using the chart it
shows that this "power" costs 45 points. Does that mean that to buy the
AE:Hex would cost 45 (total) -30 (STR cost) =15 points? This was for our
shapeshifter character, who wanted to be able to make his fist huge so he
could punch several targets at the same time (we probably would have made
it more than just a hex). If you know of other ways to do this besides
AE:Hex (the character also had Stretching, by the way), please let me know.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:28:45 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Is this character too limited?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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One of my players created a martial artist this weekend, and I'm somewhat
concerned that the character doesn't have enough options to keep it
interesting. Let me know what you think. The character has 5 or 6 martial
maneuvers, most of which have a focus: Bo staff (is a focus the right way
to do this, or is it better as a limited power "only with bo staff"? The
only example I could find was The Whip(4E)/Scourge(C:NM)). He has two that
don't require the staff, but I think they are defensive (Dodge is one, I
can't remember the other). Now, this character is also surrounded by a
mystic fire (damage shield). He can project this mystic fire to surround
anything he is holding (thus, his staff could also do damage from the
damage shield...we bought this as a 2nd damage shield with UAO, only vs
handheld objects...sound right?). Without going into skills or anything,
this is essentially the entire character. He has no resistant
defense...should I be concerned about this? Actually, the whole party (2
PCs) has no resistant defense...I'm concerned about it, and hopefully they
will be too after I show them what a blade or a bullet can do...they both
usually play characters with force fields or armor or something else that
gives them a significant amount of rPD/rED.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: snowy.owlnet.rice.edu: chip owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 09:32:08 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Usable Against Others question...
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On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Lizard wrote:

> I am designing a character with a fairly significant UAO power. However,
> she cannot use the power herself. Is that implied by UAO? It doesn't seem
> to be. How much of a limitation is "Can't use own power" worth?

It's up to you (or your GM) how you interpret this. I don't allow UAO
powers to be used on the wielder 90% of the time. For example, I require
that Teleport UAO and Teleport be purchased as separate powers. My
reasoning is that really, one is an attack and one is a movement power,
and thus require separation for balance. They could both be in an EC or
multipower, though.

If you rule that by default, the power can be used both ways, then the
limitation is based on how useful that power is when used on oneself. In
general, I vote for a -1/2 limitation. For example, I find a healing aid
that only works on others, but not oneself to be pretty equivalent to the
"only on self," -1/2 limitation. Similarly, a teleport or damage shield
UAO, but not usable by self, looks like a -1/2 limitation to me.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:40:13 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: C:NM setting in 4E?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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I'm just curious, is anyone using the Bay City setting with the 4th Edition
rules? That's what I'll be doing in my upcoming campaign. When C:NM came
out, I saw a lot of bad things being said about the setting, but I really
like it. I can't bring myself to "dumb down" to the Fuzion rules, though,
so I'm going to suffer through converting a lot of things (thanks to this
list, I'm aware that the Hero web page has some conversions already).

I still just don't understand the whole idea of supporting two competing
systems for the same genre, but I suppose that's a whole other thread....
I still think that Hero was planning for Fuzion to be the only system going
forward (Hero Plus only supporting the few who wouldn't "upgrade" to
Fuzion), but quickly dug the Hero System Rules out of the trash after they
saw the divided opinion. Of course, I have bought every C:NM book
published so far because of the source material, so I suppose I'm only
supporting this awkward split.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 07:46:41 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> How would you build a character who is able to shapeshift parts of his body
> in all different ways? For instance, if he wanted to fly, he could sprout
> wings or a propeller out of the top of his head...his fists could turn into
> hammers or big spikes or whatever... We built a character like this over=

You're more than likely going to need something with the word
'variable' in it. That is VPP, Variable Advantage, and or Variable Special
Effects.
The other option is a big multipower.

> all. The only example of this from comics that I can think of is Green
> Lantern...

Anime is loaded with them as well. Or at least a similar variation.
The person with 1001 weapons/tools up their sleaves.

> the character we were building (named "Q"...I have no idea where that came
> from, but such weirdness is typical for this player) would actually shift=
> parts of his body into those shapes.
>
Add on shapeshift if you want, but it's not needed as this can be
a special effects call of the weapons.

> Would you allow this stuff in an Elemental Control? My first instinct was
> "no", but we tried using a Multipower and it was very awkward, since

Why no? It's all part of a common special effect. Personally
I'm fond of doing it with variable advantage. But that can be expensive.


> several of his powers did not make sense with varying power levels... =
> Anyway, when I saw that it was going to be very difficult to create this
> character with only 250 points,

Most of the truely original concepts are hard to build on only 250
points. Unless they use some loophole in the rules as a core part of their
concept (like the classic Extra-Dimen Movement as an attack character).

> I wouldn't be surprised anymore). As it was, we had to dump a lot of cool
> ideas because we didn't have the points.

Whenever I get to the point that I realize I'm dumping large sections
of my concept to save points, I do one or both of two things:

1) Declare the character an NPC and use it in my own games at however many
points it takes but make it balanced to power level. Obviously this
is not as 'fun'.

2) Start looking at VPP and Variable Advantage.


Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:52:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Modifiers to Characteristics
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On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> This seems like a simple question, but I had a hard time finding an answer
> yesterday when flipping through the BBB and Classic Enemies for examples.
> How much would it cost to put AE:Hex on your STR? The character in
> question had a 30 STR, and AE:Hex is a 1/2 advantage, so using the chart it
> shows that this "power" costs 45 points. Does that mean that to buy the
> AE:Hex would cost 45 (total) -30 (STR cost) =15 points?

Correct. A One Hex AOE STR attack would cost 15 points. The same as 0
END on your STR.

> This was for our
> shapeshifter character, who wanted to be able to make his fist huge so he
> could punch several targets at the same time (we probably would have made
> it more than just a hex). If you know of other ways to do this besides
> AE:Hex (the character also had Stretching, by the way), please let me know.

Based on what you are describing, the AOE power makes sense. For 15
points, you have just given the character a 6d6 attack that needs to hit a
DCV of 3 each time, can't be dodged, and probably can't be blocked.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "Michael Rath (Volt Computer)" <a-mirath@microsoft.com>
Subject: RE: Shapeshifter questions
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 07:54:16 -0800
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I had a shapeshifter that used a 30point VPP to simulate powers when he
shapechanged. This allowed the variety and flexability to simulate these
kind of effects. He did have an EC but that was only for "related
shapshifting powers" (e.g. density increase, growth, shrinking, resistant
PD/ED).

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Stallard [SMTP:DBStallard@compuserve.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 16, 1998 7:18 AM
> To: champ-l@omg.org
> Cc: [unknown]
> Subject: Shapeshifter questions
>
> How would you build a character who is able to shapeshift parts of his
> body
> in all different ways? For instance, if he wanted to fly, he could sprout
> wings or a propeller out of the top of his head...his fists could turn
> into
> hammers or big spikes or whatever... We built a character like this over
> the weekend, but I'm not sure that we did it the best way. What we did
> was
> buy powers like Flight or HKA and put "Variable Special Effects" on them
> all. The only example of this from comics that I can think of is Green
> Lantern...however, instead of creating the variable items from thin air,
> the character we were building (named "Q"...I have no idea where that came
> from, but such weirdness is typical for this player) would actually shift
> parts of his body into those shapes.
>
> Would you allow this stuff in an Elemental Control? My first instinct was
> "no", but we tried using a Multipower and it was very awkward, since
> several of his powers did not make sense with varying power levels...
> Anyway, when I saw that it was going to be very difficult to create this
> character with only 250 points, I allowed him to use an EC just so he'd
> have enough points to get the basic concept down (I always think of
> Multipowers as saving more points, so I'm always surprised when an EC
> gives
> me better savings...maybe if I spent a few minutes to figure out the math,
> I wouldn't be surprised anymore). As it was, we had to dump a lot of cool
> ideas because we didn't have the points.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Modifiers to Characteristics
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 07:55:27 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> This seems like a simple question, but I had a hard time finding an answer
> yesterday when flipping through the BBB and Classic Enemies for examples.=
>
> How much would it cost to put AE:Hex on your STR? The character in
> question had a 30 STR, and AE:Hex is a 1/2 advantage, so using the chart it
> shows that this "power" costs 45 points. Does that mean that to buy the
> AE:Hex would cost 45 (total) -30 (STR cost) =15 points?

Yes.
Or rather, the Strength stat cost you 20 points to buy up to 30.
But you're buying the advantage on '30 points worth' of Str. Fortunatly you
got this correct or we'd be in for a long debate here. :)
Now, as you did, you applied the advantage and it adds in 15 more
points. You can write this on the sheet as 30 Str AE:Hex for 35 points, or
you can write it as 30 Str, 20 points, and in a seperate area AE:Hex added
to Str, 15 points.
The total is the same either way, so it doesn't matter how you write
it down. Write it in Chinese if you want, it'll still be valid. :)

> it more than just a hex). If you know of other ways to do this besides
> AE:Hex (the character also had Stretching, by the way), please let me know.
>
Str with Explosion? :)
I did it for a speedster once. I can see it on a stretching character you
uses their power to make their body 'explode out'.

Rook
__
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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 11:08:09 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Brian Wong
> You're more than likely going to need something with the word
'variable' in it. That is VPP, Variable Advantage, and or Variable Special
Effects.<

I didn't consider VPP because it doesn't make sense for this character to
have a few powers "readied" and have to take time to reshuffle points in
order to get effects. If he wants to fly, he just sprouts wings out of his
back...he doesn't need to have flight "on deck" ready for use. We used
Variable Special Effects in several places, though.

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 08:10:31 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: huge dudes with capes
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At 11:52 AM 3/15/1998 CST, Don McKinney wrote:
>> I enjoy a range of power levels when I run, but when I want world-savin'
>> superheroes, I run 400 point games. The world was not noticeably different
>> than ours because there are very few superheroes or villains, and plots
>> tied into one another (it's easier for me to accept that one villain
>> mastermind could send bad guys at our heroes time after time -- the
>> villains becoming more savvy -- than it would be for me to accept new
>> villain team after new villain team). The threats along these lines --
>> teams or big bad supervillains -- are rare, with most being of a second
>> sort (see below), which keeps the world as "normal" or close to ours as
>> possible.
>
>Agreed - new team of the week never works, at any power level...

One thing that I'm finding to be helpful is to determine from the outset
who the PCs' primary opponents will be through the campaign, and stick to
them about 80% of the time. The first few run-ins become the New
Supervillain Team of the Week kind of thing, but then the villains become
recurring charcters, and PCs get specific relationships with specific
villains....
And usually, the PCs' list of Hunters is sufficient for this.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 08:15:34 -0800 (PST)
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>
> One of my players created a martial artist this weekend, and I'm somewhat=
> concerned that the character doesn't have enough options to keep it
> interesting. Let me know what you think. The character has 5 or 6 martial
> maneuvers, most of which have a focus: Bo staff (is a focus the right way=
> to do this, or is it better as a limited power "only with bo staff"? The=

Neither.
Martial arts has a rule that says each weapon element you can use with it costs
1 point. The base element is ussually bare hands, but can be a weapon instead.
Look at how fencing is done for an example. If you have TUMA or NH
they will have even more examples of this. You get no limitation bonus for
something that is already assumed however.

> can't remember the other). Now, this character is also surrounded by a
> mystic fire (damage shield). He can project this mystic fire to surround=
> anything he is holding (thus, his staff could also do damage from the
> damage shield...we bought this as a 2nd damage shield with UAO, only vs
> handheld objects...sound right?).

Possibly unessesary. Damage Shield may extend to anything you're
holding. It certainly does for most of the common special effects it is
used for (try this one: stick a wire in an electrical socket and grab it
with your bare hands. Now have a friend grab you. AT this point you have just
demonstrated 'Damage Shield' to your friend. :) Now have a third friend
grab your friend. :) Though I belive this is actually an example of 'sticky'.)
I'll have to re-read a few rules to be sure on this one.


> Without going into skills or anything,=
> this is essentially the entire character. He has no resistant
> defense...should I be concerned about this? Actually, the whole party (2=
> PCs) has no resistant defense...I'm concerned about it, and hopefully they
> will be too after I show them what a blade or a bullet can do...

Don't be. Perhaps they want a more super heroic game where killing
attacks are rare are seem to have an uncanny ability to miss (Ever notice
how Batman can go for a sunday stroll through a hail of bullets and not get
hit once. To test this one out, go trapsing through the local NRA firing
range sometime. There is a high probability that will discover that comics
don't always match reality. :) ).

Rook
__
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 08:17:30 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Only in Hero ID
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At 01:58 PM 3/15/1998 -0500, Jeff M. Reid wrote:
>> One of the key diferences in the two is damage carryover. In OIHID
>> damage to one persona is damage to the other.
>> In multiform, short of death, damage to one form has no effect on the
>> other (unlike duplication).
>
>What gives you that impression? My initial reaction was that you were nuts,
>but I decided to check the rules just to be sure. Interestingly enough, the
>Multiform listing in the Hero Rulesbook doesn't mention damage carryover
>one way or the other, so I suppose that there's room for debate. I would
>like to hear what others have to say on the subject before I can accept
>what seems to me to be a counterintuitive rules interpretation.

In the absence of a clear rule to the contrary, go with what makes sense.
In this case, since the rules don't say one way or the other whether
damage carries over, but it makes more sense for it to carry over than not,
then it does.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 08:19:28 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: The Great Multiform Debate
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At 11:33 AM 3/15/1998 -0800, Rook wrote:
>> > One of the key diferences in the two is damage carryover. In OIHID
>> > damage to one persona is damage to the other.
>> > In multiform, short of death, damage to one form has no effect on the
>> > other (unlike duplication).
>>
>> What gives you that impression? My initial reaction was that you were nuts,
>> but I decided to check the rules just to be sure. Interestingly enough, the
>> Multiform listing in the Hero Rulesbook doesn't mention damage carryover
>> one way or the other, so I suppose that there's room for debate. I would
>> like to hear what others have to say on the subject before I can accept
>> what seems to me to be a counterintuitive rules interpretation.
>
> Simple. It never says it does. So it doesn't. Especially since duplication
>shows how it does for that power.

It also never says that a character instantly recovers when using
Multiform.

> Multiform is a power that gives you two seperate bodies. Why should
>hurting one hurt the other.

Having two separate bodies is only one SFX of Multiform. A body that
undergoes a severe change is another.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: C:NM setting in 4E?
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 08:35:25 -0800 (PST)
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>
> I'm just curious, is anyone using the Bay City setting with the 4th Edition
> rules? That's what I'll be doing in my upcoming campaign. When C:NM came
> out, I saw a lot of bad things being said about the setting, but I really=
> like it.

As someone who's a native to the Bay Area, and currently living there;
I had some trouble with the idea of all those cities unifying. But that's no
major issue. Otherwise the Bay City book makes for a good info book on the
region. But this being where the Silicon Valley is; there is tons of info
on the net one can use to build a decent, believable game with.

As for the setting itself, I don't use it, though I'll admit it
has some interesting ideas. But of course, for me, my own ideas are much
better. If for no other reason than that they are mine.

> I can't bring myself to "dumb down" to the Fuzion rules, though,
> so I'm going to suffer through converting a lot of things (thanks to this=
> list, I'm aware that the Hero web page has some conversions already).
>
My group has a future plan of trying out our characters and setting
in all of Hero (done), Fuzion, V&V, Living Legends, DC Heroes, and the upcoming
New Marvel RPG.

> I still think that Hero was planning for Fuzion to be the only system going
> forward (Hero Plus only supporting the few who wouldn't "upgrade" to
> Fuzion), but quickly dug the Hero System Rules out of the trash after they
> saw the divided opinion.

Not quickly, but yes, I'd agree here. They had to be bullied into it.


> Of course, I have bought every C:NM book
> published so far because of the source material, so I suppose I'm only
> supporting this awkward split.

Yep. :)

On the other hand, BGC has sold very well, and I believe is the current
justification for Fuzion. C:NM does sell better than Hero. But then it's
got new stuff on the shelves, and Hero doesn't. Or what Hero does have that's
new is on disk or marginal quality.

Rook
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 08:40:13 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Small campaign
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At 10:15 PM 3/15/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> Make these two PCs more of a "special ops" team - handling the
>> assignments that the Champs can't, instead of the assignments the
>> Champs don't want. Make them the team that goes "away saving the
>> world".
>>
>> Just a thought.
>
> Or make the game more of a dark(ish) champions. They handle the
>things that the Champions can't get their hands dirty on. I did something
>nice with this between home and school based campaigns.

This uses a campaign trick that I'd encourage whenever starting a new
campaign in an established superhero universe.
Unlike what Hero (in C:NM) and GRG are insisting upon, it's not
necessary for the PCs to be the "top dog" heroes in the world. All that
needs to be done is to make the existing heroes flexible enough so that the
PCs can form their own niche.
(This is one thing that I'm waiting to see in San Angelo. If there's
already an established superhero community, then how is it that the PCs,
who would have to be rank beginners at the start, are already the world's
Number One hero team? The explanation has *got* to be good!)
Suppose a campaign is taking place in New York, home of the Champions,
location of UNTIL HQ, and one of the places PRIMUS has a base. Allegedly
there are other hero groups based there as well, such as the CU version of
the Circle; in my campaign, METE is located in that area.
So what does a GM do when the campaign is to be located in New York?
In the past, the assumption has been that some excuse will be made for
each of the other groups. Just by coincidence, every time the Utlimates
try to raid something in New York, the Champions are off saving the world.
Instead, decide ahead of time on some unique niche for the PCs to fit
into. Maybe they're a group of all mutants (OK, I know it's overwrought,
but bear with me here; it's just an example). They're all scientists who
have formed a "think tank" to research the nature of beneficial mutations,
as well as learn to use their powers responsibly and for the good of
mankind. They call themselves the Gene Pool.
So immediately we have several natural enemies in the CU: Genocide,
IMAGE, the Conquerors, and probably PSI and/or Malachite, just off the top
of my head. Since they're scientific types, Master Control or VIPER might
take an interest as well.
Now, when (for instance) IMAGE tries to blow up a law firm's offices, it
will seem more natural for the Gene Pool to respond than the Champions or
the Circle, since it's a mutant-related issue, and they're the experts.
Sure, the Champions may monitor the situation in case it gets out of hand,
but they can keep their hands free for other matters.
I have a similar plan in place for my design of my Northwest Champions
book. I will be presenting superhero teams in Portland and Seattle. Both,
however, will be of a type that can "move over" to make room for a second
group. If the new kids want to work the streets, then the established
groups will just handle anything of a more "four-color" nature. If the new
group is a general-purpose, high-powered public team, then the Seattle
group can take to the streets, and the two Portland groups can fall into
specialties of their own.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:47:51 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Influences & Source Material
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> The Fearsome Five of Darkwing's world was the Friendly Four on
> Negaduck's world, consisting of Megavolt, Liquidator, Bushroot, and
> Quackerjack. (Negaduck himself rounded out the Fearsome Five.) This one
> had what I still consider to be the best birthday party on animated
> television.
> Another good episode was the two-parter where the Justice Ducks banded
> together for the first (and, it turned out only) time.
> Or the one where Darkwing and Quackerjack had to team up against the
> prankster demon.
> But my favorite for plot-stealing is the episode in which Tusk-anini
> pretended to go straight, and arranged to take his parole in Drake
> Mallard's guest room.

I don't know. When a brick-playing player of mine tells me he's
gonna grab his opponent and "Put out the Darkwing." Well, I know exactly
what he's talking about.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:54:47 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
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On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> How would you build a character who is able to shapeshift parts of his body
> in all different ways? For instance, if he wanted to fly, he could sprout
> wings or a propeller out of the top of his head...his fists could turn into
> hammers or big spikes or whatever... We built a character like this over
> the weekend, but I'm not sure that we did it the best way. What we did was
> buy powers like Flight or HKA and put "Variable Special Effects" on them
> all. The only example of this from comics that I can think of is Green
> Lantern...however, instead of creating the variable items from thin air,
> the character we were building (named "Q"...I have no idea where that came
> from, but such weirdness is typical for this player) would actually shift
> parts of his body into those shapes.

Sort of like the revised Guy Gardner, from DC comics...

I'd purchase this as a combination of Shapeshift and Variable Power Pool.

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:57:33 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
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On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> Message text written by Brian Wong
> > You're more than likely going to need something with the word
> 'variable' in it. That is VPP, Variable Advantage, and or Variable Special
> Effects.<
>
> I didn't consider VPP because it doesn't make sense for this character to
> have a few powers "readied" and have to take time to reshuffle points in
> order to get effects. If he wants to fly, he just sprouts wings out of his
> back...he doesn't need to have flight "on deck" ready for use. We used
> Variable Special Effects in several places, though.

Then apply the +1/2 A "Doesn't require skill to reshuffle points", as
listed in the rulebook.

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 09:06:21 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> Message text written by Brian Wong
> > You're more than likely going to need something with the word
> 'variable' in it. That is VPP, Variable Advantage, and or Variable Special
> Effects.<
>
> I didn't consider VPP because it doesn't make sense for this character to=
> have a few powers "readied" and have to take time to reshuffle points in
> order to get effects. If he wants to fly, he just sprouts wings out of his
> back...he doesn't need to have flight "on deck" ready for use.

VPP with no time to change.

> We used
> Variable Special Effects in several places, though.
>
Actually, it seems to me like variable special effects in not
what you want at all. After all, all your powers relate to the same
special effect: Shapeshifting your body. So they are all part of the body.
One consistant special effect.

Variable advantage however would be handy. Grow a spike and that HKA is
Armor Piercing. Grow a blade and it's just an HKA. Shoot off quills and it's
an explosive HKA. Etc...

Rook
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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 09:28:34 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Usable Against Others question...
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I am designing a character with a fairly significant UAO power. However,
she cannot use the power herself. Is that implied by UAO? It doesn't seem
to be. How much of a limitation is "Can't use own power" worth?

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Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:32:59 +0000
Subject: Re: C:NM setting in 4E?
Priority: normal
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> I'm just curious, is anyone using the Bay City setting with the 4th
> Edition rules? That's what I'll be doing in my upcoming campaign.
> When C:NM came out, I saw a lot of bad things being said about the
> setting, but I really like it. I can't bring myself to "dumb down"
> to the Fuzion rules, though, so I'm going to suffer through
> converting a lot of things (thanks to this list, I'm aware that the
> Hero web page has some conversions already).
>

I'm planning to use some of the background material on the Proprietor
War, but overall I'm not using the setting as is. I am using Odyessy
Research Institute from Alliances as a villain orgainization, and
both I and another GM in our group are using Bay City because the
settings and maps are so well done: he's using it for San Angelo
until it comes out, and I'm pulling them into Hudson City.


> I still just don't understand the whole idea of supporting two
> competing systems for the same genre, but I suppose that's a whole
> other thread.... I still think that Hero was planning for Fuzion to
> be the only system going forward (Hero Plus only supporting the few
> who wouldn't "upgrade" to Fuzion), but quickly dug the Hero System
> Rules out of the trash after they saw the divided opinion. Of
> course, I have bought every C:NM book published so far because of
> the source material, so I suppose I'm only supporting this awkward
> split.
>

I won't go there :D

Amy

----------------
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From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:38:34 +0000
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
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> How would you build a character who is able to shapeshift parts of
> his body in all different ways? For instance, if he wanted to fly,
> he could sprout wings or a propeller out of the top of his
> head...his fists could turn into hammers or big spikes or
> whatever... We built a character like this over the weekend, but
> I'm not sure that we did it the best way. What we did was buy
> powers like Flight or HKA and put "Variable Special Effects" on them
> all. The only example of this from comics that I can think of is
> Green Lantern...however, instead of creating the variable items from
> thin air, the character we were building (named "Q"...I have no idea
> where that came from, but such weirdness is typical for this player)
> would actually shift parts of his body into those shapes.
>

Sounds like you did it the right way to me. Shapeshift alone
wouldn't work, since it only gives you the semblance and not the
substance, ie you can turn yourself into an eagle, but if you don't
have Flight, you can't fly.

> Would you allow this stuff in an Elemental Control? My first
> instinct was "no", but we tried using a Multipower and it was very
> awkward, since several of his powers did not make sense with varying
> power levels... Anyway, when I saw that it was going to be very
> difficult to create this character with only 250 points, I allowed
> him to use an EC just so he'd have enough points to get the basic
> concept down (I always think of Multipowers as saving more points,
> so I'm always surprised when an EC gives me better savings...maybe
> if I spent a few minutes to figure out the math, I wouldn't be
> surprised anymore). As it was, we had to dump a lot of cool ideas
> because we didn't have the points.

As a EC, I think the justification is a bit thin. I'd try a Variable
Power Pool, it actually would be more flexible than an EC, because
your player would be able to add new slots on the fly as he thinks of
them, instead of having to wait until he has the earned experience to
do so.

The Q idea probably comes from Star Trek: The Next Generation. Hit
him. Hit him hard.

Amy

----------------
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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 09:44:00 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
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At 11:08 AM 3/16/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by Brian Wong
>> You're more than likely going to need something with the word
>'variable' in it. That is VPP, Variable Advantage, and or Variable Special
>Effects.<
>
>I didn't consider VPP because it doesn't make sense for this character to
>have a few powers "readied" and have to take time to reshuffle points in
>order to get effects. If he wants to fly, he just sprouts wings out of his
>back...he doesn't need to have flight "on deck" ready for use. We used
>Variable Special Effects in several places, though.

It might make sense to use VPP, with a -1/2 Limitation of Types of
Powers so that they are only Shapeshifting Powers, rather than EC.
Then work with the player to create a list of Powers that he can use.
Be creative; what I do for stuff like this is wind my way through the list
of Powers, and think, "What can I do with this Power?" The list can then
be available at any time.
I'd recommend the No Required Skill Roll Advantage, and a lesser version
of the Reduced Time Advantage; rather than a Turn to a Minute, for +1/2 (or
maybe +3/4) it only takes a half Phase to change (which is sensible).
Now, if you find that it's just plain cheaper to buy the desired Powers
in an Elemental Control (since the above-described VPP would total 110
points), then I can certainly see doing it that way.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:58:42 -0700
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
Subject: Re: Modifiers to Characteristics
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> Str with Explosion? :)
> I did it for a speedster once. I can see it on a stretching character you
> uses their power to make their body 'explode out'.
>
> Rook

In the first campaign I played in I ran a shapeshifting/streching alien
minibrick named Meeb (short for amoebea). During one fight we were all
tossed in the air. Meeb had growth and so landed first (he wasn't flung
up as far) and using my streching upon landing tried to catch eveyone
else (many psuedopods). The GM allowed it, but said,"If you want to keep
doing tricks like that you will have to buy your Strength area effect".

I looked at my unspent XP and with what we gained I had enough for
Explosion. So I bought it, and in the very next combat a new manuever
was inaguarated; the teams real brick (Megatak a supersuit) was glacing
over my sheet and noted the explosion and he asked "what like a
grenade?" I explained it to him, and we then put our heads together.
During the fight there were three martial artists with obscene DCVs
(something like 4 over the norm without dodging). Megatak picked up Meeb
and tossed him right in the middle of the triplets whereupon he
'exploded', psueopods everywhere. When the dust settled the three were
out cold.

Everyone knows the 'fastball special', we invented the 'organic
grenade'.
--

Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages,
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and
goes through their pockets. -- Eddy Peters

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:07:43 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
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At 10:28 AM 3/16/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>One of my players created a martial artist this weekend, and I'm somewhat
>concerned that the character doesn't have enough options to keep it
>interesting. Let me know what you think. The character has 5 or 6 martial
>maneuvers, most of which have a focus: Bo staff (is a focus the right way
>to do this, or is it better as a limited power "only with bo staff"? The
>only example I could find was The Whip(4E)/Scourge(C:NM)). He has two that
>don't require the staff, but I think they are defensive (Dodge is one, I
>can't remember the other). Now, this character is also surrounded by a
>mystic fire (damage shield). He can project this mystic fire to surround
>anything he is holding (thus, his staff could also do damage from the
>damage shield...we bought this as a 2nd damage shield with UAO, only vs
>handheld objects...sound right?). Without going into skills or anything,
>this is essentially the entire character. He has no resistant
>defense...should I be concerned about this? Actually, the whole party (2
>PCs) has no resistant defense...I'm concerned about it, and hopefully they
>will be too after I show them what a blade or a bullet can do...they both
>usually play characters with force fields or armor or something else that
>gives them a significant amount of rPD/rED.

1. No Focus Limitation on the Martial Arts, unless the Martial Arts is
a part of the focus itself and not training (that is, anyone could pick it
up and use it like an expert, or at any rate the character would be unable
to use the Martial Arts with another stick).
2. The Damage Shield seems OK to me. It stretches the letter of the
rules a bit, but not enough that I'd call for even a +1/4 Advantage; it's
at least within the spirit of the rules.
That much said, though, I'd recommend that you make sure that both the
Damage Shield and the most powerful Martial Arts attack do about 2 DCs less
than the usual starting point for the campaign. This is effectively two
attacks which are able to strike the same target with the same Attack Roll,
even though they apply against two different defenses (the Martial attack
vs PD, the fire vs ED).
3. Perhaps you needn't worry too much about the bullets, but he should
be unless he has a remarkably high DCV. Recommend that he at least wear a
bulletproof vest or lightly armored costume or something. But don't force
the issue; let him get shot a few times (non-lethally, of course), and make
his own decision.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:15:02 +0000
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
Priority: normal
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> If a character does not have a Secret ID or a Public ID, does it
> mean that he is not hiding the fact that he is a hero, but that he
> isn't all that famous either? In other words, the people in his
> neighborhood know that there's a hero living in that house, but his
> address is not worth publishing in hero tabloids or a "who's who"
> book?
>

Secret ID means no one knows the character is a hero (or villain),
like Aunt May doesn't know Peter Parker is Spiderman, or that
Commissioner Gordon doensn't know Batman is Bruce Wayne. The
character hides his identity, usually to protect friends and families
from supervillain retaliation, or to protect himself from the police
if he is a vigilante like the Harbinger of Justice.

Public ID means that everyone knows who the person is, and generally
where they can be found (ie, everyone knows where stately Wayne Manor
is).

If the character has neither Disad, then it is assumed that the
character may not be advertising the fact he is a superhero, but that
he doesn't hide it either. It also means that, unless the character
has a Rep, that no one will instantly recognize his name either.

Now the rules states that you can't have both Secret ID and Public
ID. I disagree with that rule, and in my campaign a character may
have both if his concept justifies it. I cite Bruce Wayne as an
example of a person who has both: everyone knows Bruce Wayne,
business tycoon, playboy philanthropist who lives at Stately Wayne
Manor outside of Gotham City--but no one knows he is hiding a secret:
that he rides at night as the mysterious Batman.

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:24:28 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Usable Against Others question...
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At 09:28 AM 3/16/1998 -0800, Lizard wrote:
>I am designing a character with a fairly significant UAO power. However,
>she cannot use the power herself. Is that implied by UAO? It doesn't seem
>to be. How much of a limitation is "Can't use own power" worth?

I have a few instances in TUSV where a Power is Usable By/Against/On
Others, but not by the vehicle. When this happens, I give a +1/2 Advantage
(the exception is when the vehicle has Aid, but this is a rather unique
situation). This is based on the "Self Only" Limitation (-1/2) which has
appeared from time to time, though I don't recall if it's made an
appearance in 4th Ed.
UAO does have an element where the character cannot use the power
herself when someone else is using it, but you would need a Limitation for
her to be unable to use the Power for herself at all.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:42:25 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: huge dudes with capes
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> One thing that I'm finding to be helpful is to determine from the
outset
who the PCs' primary opponents will be through the campaign, and stick to
them about 80% of the time. The first few run-ins become the New
Supervillain Team of the Week kind of thing, but then the villains become
recurring charcters, and PCs get specific relationships with specific
villains....<

I see the merit of using primary opponents over and over, but 80% of the
time sounds a little high to me. If the primary opponent is an
organization such as Viper, then you can reuse them quite a bit (because
there's a lot of variety within the organization), but if the primary
opponent is a villain team like The Conquerors, then I can't see having
them appear so often. In order to do that, they would have to escape from
every encounter or else break out of Stronghold too often to make the
prison practical.

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:42:26 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Dataweaver
>Then apply the +1/2 A "Doesn't require skill to reshuffle points", as
listed in the rulebook.<

I've always been under the impression that the big limiting factor in a
VPP's power is that you have to reshuffle points...this prevents you from
having every power in the book at the same time. By applying the advantage
you mention above, you essentially have every power known to man, available
at any time. That might be a little too much for me to allow as a GM.

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:42:27 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Small campaign
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> Unlike what Hero (in C:NM) and GRG are insisting upon, it's not
necessary for the PCs to be the "top dog" heroes in the world. All that
needs to be done is to make the existing heroes flexible enough so that the
PCs can form their own niche.<

GRG's "San Angelo" certainly sounds like the PCs will be the top-dog group,
but that's not the case in C:NM. The Champions are clearly set up as the
top-dogs in Bay City (if not the country, if not the world), unless you
remove them or replace them with the PC group (I think the C:NM book says
one possibility is to let the PCs use the Champions base, etc., for their
own characters).

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:42:28 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: C:NM setting in 4E?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Brian Wong
> As someone who's a native to the Bay Area, and currently living
there;
I had some trouble with the idea of all those cities unifying. But that's
no
major issue. Otherwise the Bay City book makes for a good info book on the
region. But this being where the Silicon Valley is; there is tons of info
on the net one can use to build a decent, believable game with.<

To be honest, I'm not all that interested in how accurate Bay City is in
giving info on the region...since I've only been to the area
(Cupertino...or is that too far south to be part of Bay City?) once on a
business trip, it's essentially an imaginary place to me. The important
thing to me is that the various elements of the setting are all tied
together, and that the setting provides lots of plot hooks (The Pit,
Wildstrike, etc). I didn't get much of this from Champions Universe. I
guess what I'm saying is that it doesn't matter to me if Bay City is based
on a real place or not, as long as it provides an interesting place for
superheroic adventures.

>>On the other hand, BGC has sold very well, and I believe is the current
justification for Fuzion. C:NM does sell better than Hero. But then it's
got new stuff on the shelves, and Hero doesn't. Or what Hero does have
that's
new is on disk or marginal quality.<<

Yeah, you certainly can't compare C:NM sales to current Hero sales (most
all 4E stuff is out of print now, and they're just emptying out the
warehouses now with what's left of the ICE stuff...GRG's stuff and maybe
Atlas's stuff being the small exceptions). It might make sense to compare
C:NM sales to past Hero sales, when Hero was steadily churning out new
product. Also, I'd guess that C:NM sales would be lower for books that are
strongly rules-based, because I think there's a group of people out there
like me who are still using 4E but are buying C:NM supplements for the
rules-independent source material. A book full of Fuzion rules
additions/changes would not interest me....

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:42:28 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Brian Wong
>Martial arts has a rule that says each weapon element you can use with it
costs
1 point. The base element is ussually bare hands, but can be a weapon
instead.
Look at how fencing is done for an example. If you have TUMA or NH
they will have even more examples of this. You get no limitation bonus for
something that is already assumed however.<

What if some martial maneuvers require a weapon, and some work either way?
The rest of it makes sense, but the thing I'm not sure about is how to make
certain maneuvers impossible without the weapon, while some can be used
with or without it. An example would be that this character bought
Legsweep defined as hitting their legs with his staff. If he doesn't have
the staff, he can't legsweep because he learned how to do it with a big
stick, not with his own leg.

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:42:29 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Brian Wong
> Don't be. Perhaps they want a more super heroic game where killing
attacks are rare are seem to have an uncanny ability to miss (Ever notice
how Batman can go for a sunday stroll through a hail of bullets and not get
hit once. To test this one out, go trapsing through the local NRA firing
range sometime. There is a high probability that will discover that comics
don't always match reality. :) ).<

No, I'm sure they weren't trying to tell me something about the campaign
style they want by neglecting to get any resistant defense. My guess is
that they just ran out of points and thought that another attack or extra
dice on an existing power was more important than getting some resistant
defense. Anyway, I would never run a campaign where killing attacks had an
uncanny ability to miss...what's the point in giving guns to agents, then?
They might as well just stand there and make funny faces at the heroes.

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:42:29 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Brian Wong
> Don't be. Perhaps they want a more super heroic game where killing
attacks are rare are seem to have an uncanny ability to miss (Ever notice
how Batman can go for a sunday stroll through a hail of bullets and not get
hit once. To test this one out, go trapsing through the local NRA firing
range sometime. There is a high probability that will discover that comics
don't always match reality. :) ).<

No, I'm sure they weren't trying to tell me something about the campaign
style they want by neglecting to get any resistant defense. My guess is
that they just ran out of points and thought that another attack or extra
dice on an existing power was more important than getting some resistant
defense. Anyway, I would never run a campaign where killing attacks had an
uncanny ability to miss...what's the point in giving guns to agents, then?
They might as well just stand there and make funny faces at the heroes.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: The Great Multiform Debate
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:50:28 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> >> > One of the key diferences in the two is damage carryover. In OIHID
> >> > damage to one persona is damage to the other.
> >> > In multiform, short of death, damage to one form has no effect on the
> >> > other (unlike duplication).
> >>
> >> What gives you that impression? My initial reaction was that you were nuts,
> >> but I decided to check the rules just to be sure. Interestingly enough, the
> >> Multiform listing in the Hero Rulesbook doesn't mention damage carryover
> >> one way or the other, so I suppose that there's room for debate. I would
> >> like to hear what others have to say on the subject before I can accept
> >> what seems to me to be a counterintuitive rules interpretation.
> >
> > Simple. It never says it does. So it doesn't. Especially since duplication
> >shows how it does for that power.
>
> It also never says that a character instantly recovers when using
> Multiform.
>
The lack of damage carryover does not infer that either.
When you go back to the hurt form, it would likely still be hurt.

> > Multiform is a power that gives you two seperate bodies. Why should
> >hurting one hurt the other.
>
> Having two separate bodies is only one SFX of Multiform. A body that
> undergoes a severe change is another.

True. But since the second can be done by adding a limitation to a
version of the multiform that does no damage carryover, however the first
could not be done with a version of multiform that did do damage carryover;
it makes more sense to use the version that lacks damage carryover. Since
this allows more effects to be simulated.
The only other option is to add in 'advantaged advantage'.

Besides, why else was the rule dropped in the move from it's second to
fourth edition versions.

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:53:21 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Usable Against Others question...
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On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:

> UAO does have an element where the character cannot use the power
> herself when someone else is using it, but you would need a Limitation for
> her to be unable to use the Power for herself at all.

If this sentence is confusing you, here's my interpretation... :-P

Usable By Others has an option in which the wielder loses the power when
giving it to someone else. You should tack on a limitation to remove the
ablility to use a UBO power on oneself.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:56:59 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> 2. The Damage Shield seems OK to me. It stretches the letter of the
rules a bit, but not enough that I'd call for even a +1/4 Advantage; it's
at least within the spirit of the rules.<

I'm not sure why you say that a Damage Shield, Usable Against Others, Only
vs held inanimate objects, stretches the letter of the rules. How would
you simulate the ability to encompass your weapon in a mystic fire? I
think maybe some people misunderstood the way we implemented the "mystic
fire". We bought 2 separate damage shields...one of them is a garden
variety which goes around the character, and the other is the one I just
described, which basically extends this aura of mystic fire so that it
covers the weapon too. If there's a better way to do this, please let me
know.

> That much said, though, I'd recommend that you make sure that both the
Damage Shield and the most powerful Martial Arts attack do about 2 DCs less
than the usual starting point for the campaign. This is effectively two
attacks which are able to strike the same target with the same Attack Roll,
even though they apply against two different defenses (the Martial attack
vs PD, the fire vs ED).<

Yes, I made sure that his Offensive Strike plus the Damage Shield did less
than the maximum DC (I think it was 11d6 combined). The Damage Shield
costs something like 4 END (I'm going from memory here), so he won't be
using it all the time either.

> 3. Perhaps you needn't worry too much about the bullets, but he should
be unless he has a remarkably high DCV. Recommend that he at least wear a
bulletproof vest or lightly armored costume or something. But don't force
the issue; let him get shot a few times (non-lethally, of course), and make
his own decision.<

He can get a remarkably high DCV using some of his defensive Martial
Maneuvers. The other player without rPD/rED, though, has an 8 DCV (decent,
but within the normal range for my campaign) and no way to increase it
outside of the standard melee maneuvers. I'm pretty sure he'll regret that
before too long (I suggested CSLs quite a few times, but he opted not to
take them)

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:01:58 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Usable Against Others question...
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> I have a few instances in TUSV where a Power is Usable By/Against/On
Others, but not by the vehicle. When this happens, I give a +1/2 Advantage
(the exception is when the vehicle has Aid, but this is a rather unique
situation). This is based on the "Self Only" Limitation (-1/2) which has
appeared from time to time, though I don't recall if it's made an
appearance in 4th Ed.<

Okay, I've got to know...what is TUSV? I was clueless until I saw this
message, but now I'm thinking SV might mean Super Vehicle. Anywhere close?

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Small campaign
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 11:10:40 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> This uses a campaign trick that I'd encourage whenever starting a new
> campaign in an established superhero universe.
> Unlike what Hero (in C:NM) and GRG are insisting upon, it's not
> necessary for the PCs to be the "top dog" heroes in the world. All that
> needs to be done is to make the existing heroes flexible enough so that the
> PCs can form their own niche.
> (This is one thing that I'm waiting to see in San Angelo. If there's
> already an established superhero community, then how is it that the PCs,
> who would have to be rank beginners at the start, are already the world's
> Number One hero team? The explanation has *got* to be good!)

I believe the PC's in that setting are number one in "San Angelo",
not nessessarily "The World".
But for examples of how to make a set of newbies into the main team
right, look at the intro module to V&V, Crisis at Crusader Citidel. Also
look at:

http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/watchtower.html

The setting to my game. Click on the return to index at the top to get
to the main page of it that has the world's other subpages.

For the short end, just as WatchTower was gearing up to bring in a
new backup team (Team Beta), Team Alpha was sent into "The Binary Zone!",
and has been unheard of since.

> Suppose a campaign is taking place in New York, home of the Champions,

Heh, I always put them in San Francisco in my old High School game,
Which is actually where the comic book had them. :)

I'm snipping the rest of your ideas. They look like good ideas for
doing 'minor' or 'niche' teams.

Also consider that not all PC's begin play at the beginning of their
careers. I don't think I've ever played such a Hero myself. I've made a few,
but for some reason they never make it to the actual gaming session. :)


Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Usable Against Others question...
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 11:17:38 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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>
> I am designing a character with a fairly significant UAO power. However,
> she cannot use the power herself. Is that implied by UAO? It doesn't seem
> to be. How much of a limitation is "Can't use own power" worth?
>
My gut feeling is it's not implied. I'd make it a -1 lim.
The best advice is to look at the articles in the Almanacs on this. They
may counter me. Or agree with me. I'm pretty sure one of the Almanacs has
a detailed bit on this under an article about making an effect permanent.

Rook
__
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:34:44 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Is this character too limited?
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David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> wrote:

>
> What if some martial maneuvers require a weapon, and some work either way=
> ? =
>

Have the character buy either the 'usable with weapon' element or 'usable
bare-handed' for the maneuvers that can work with both. Then just list
on the character sheet which maneuvers go with both, which can only be used
with the weapon, and which can only be used bare-handed.

> The rest of it makes sense, but the thing I'm not sure about is how to ma=
> ke
> certain maneuvers impossible without the weapon, while some can be used
> with or without it. An example would be that this character bought
> Legsweep defined as hitting their legs with his staff. If he doesn't hav=
> e
> the staff, he can't legsweep because he learned how to do it with a big
> stick, not with his own leg.
>
'Legsweep' would be a 'bo-stick' only maneuver. I guess theoretically,
once the character has paid the 1 point for maneuvers usable with 'other',
then ALL of the maneuvers could be used with EITHER. However, as the GM,
if you don't like that, just list which maneuvers are appliable to which
weapon element.

Curt

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X-Authentication-Warning: snowy.owlnet.rice.edu: chip owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:38:28 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Usable Against Others question...
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On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> Okay, I've got to know...what is TUSV? I was clueless until I saw this
> message, but now I'm thinking SV might mean Super Vehicle. Anywhere close?

Ya. Bob "Get out of my dreams, get into my supervehicle" Greenwade is the
author and distinguished member of this list. So when he speaks of the
book, he speaks with authority.

BTW, Bob, is it out yet?

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 11:38:53 -0800 (PST)
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> > Don't be. Perhaps they want a more super heroic game where killing
> attacks are rare are seem to have an uncanny ability to miss (Ever notice=
> how Batman can go for a sunday stroll through a hail of bullets and not get
> hit once. To test this one out, go trapsing through the local NRA firing
> range sometime. There is a high probability that will discover that comics
> don't always match reality. :) ).<
>
> No, I'm sure they weren't trying to tell me something about the campaign
> style they want by neglecting to get any resistant defense. My guess is
> that they just ran out of points and thought that another attack or extra=
> dice on an existing power was more important than getting some resistant
> defense. Anyway, I would never run a campaign where killing attacks had an
> uncanny ability to miss...what's the point in giving guns to agents, then? =
>
> They might as well just stand there and make funny faces at the heroes.
>
Yep. :)
That's what they do in most comics anyway. The way I see agents is I toss a
bunch of counters on the battlemat and tell the players to roleplay knocking
those out while I prepare the real plot. :)

But seriously. In a four color setting, agents are only used when
you need to fill page count. They're very rare in the four color comics.
And killing attacks that really would kill tend to miss or be used
as plot devices only.

But obviously if your not doing four color you'll want the resistant
defenses. Perhaps if they ran out of points it means you need to give more.

Rook
__
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Tim R. Gilberg\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 98 20:25:50
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Segment 12
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On Sun, 15 Mar 1998 22:52:05 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

>> Blasting the first villain who tried to attack is a new wrinkle. It seems
>> to me that the PC decided not to act after all, though she is holding an
>> action. If the rest of the PC's were completely clueless about the
>> impending attack, she might be the only player to get a Segment 12 due to
>> their surprise; but I wouldn't give her an extra attack in either
>> circumstance. (However, if she had picked out a particular villain, I would
>> have let her do a "Covered" maneuver before Segment 12.) I would most
>> likely run this as a standard Segment 12 with everyone acting on both
>> sides, since everyone knew a fight was likely to break out any second.
>
>
> Nah. This is easy. She is holding an action until a villian
>starts to attack. At that point it will be a Dex vs Dex roll to see who
>goes first: Her, or the attacking villian.

Perhaps a PER roll might be preferable - she's got to see the attack
coming.

qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"David Stallard\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 98 20:27:07
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
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On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:17:50 -0500, David Stallard wrote:

>How would you build a character who is able to shapeshift parts of his body
>in all different ways? For instance, if he wanted to fly, he could sprout
>wings or a propeller out of the top of his head...his fists could turn into
>hammers or big spikes or whatever... We built a character like this over
>the weekend, but I'm not sure that we did it the best way. What we did was
>buy powers like Flight or HKA and put "Variable Special Effects" on them
>all. The only example of this from comics that I can think of is Green
>Lantern...however, instead of creating the variable items from thin air,
>the character we were building (named "Q"...I have no idea where that came
>from, but such weirdness is typical for this player) would actually shift
>parts of his body into those shapes.
>
>Would you allow this stuff in an Elemental Control? My first instinct was
>"no", but we tried using a Multipower and it was very awkward, since
>several of his powers did not make sense with varying power levels...
>Anyway, when I saw that it was going to be very difficult to create this
>character with only 250 points, I allowed him to use an EC just so he'd
>have enough points to get the basic concept down (I always think of
>Multipowers as saving more points, so I'm always surprised when an EC gives
>me better savings...maybe if I spent a few minutes to figure out the math,
>I wouldn't be surprised anymore). As it was, we had to dump a lot of cool
>ideas because we didn't have the points.

Why not a small VPP?


qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:27:56 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: huge dudes with capes
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At 01:42 PM 3/16/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade
>> One thing that I'm finding to be helpful is to determine from the
>outset
>who the PCs' primary opponents will be through the campaign, and stick to
>them about 80% of the time. The first few run-ins become the New
>Supervillain Team of the Week kind of thing, but then the villains become
>recurring charcters, and PCs get specific relationships with specific
>villains....<
>
>I see the merit of using primary opponents over and over, but 80% of the
>time sounds a little high to me. If the primary opponent is an
>organization such as Viper, then you can reuse them quite a bit (because
>there's a lot of variety within the organization), but if the primary
>opponent is a villain team like The Conquerors, then I can't see having
>them appear so often. In order to do that, they would have to escape from
>every encounter or else break out of Stronghold too often to make the
>prison practical.

Don't use just one opponent. Use several.
Use agencies and large organizations when possible.
And according to the source material (comics/animated TV), it's fairly
typical for a supervillain team to either make their escape once their
plans are foiled, or (less frequently, and generally in materials that
straddle "dark" and four-color) get out of prison one way or another every
time they're captured.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:29:48 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
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At 01:42 PM 3/16/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by Brian Wong
>>Martial arts has a rule that says each weapon element you can use with it
>costs
>1 point. The base element is ussually bare hands, but can be a weapon
>instead.
> Look at how fencing is done for an example. If you have TUMA or NH
>they will have even more examples of this. You get no limitation bonus for
>something that is already assumed however.<
>
>What if some martial maneuvers require a weapon, and some work either way?
>The rest of it makes sense, but the thing I'm not sure about is how to make
>certain maneuvers impossible without the weapon, while some can be used
>with or without it. An example would be that this character bought
>Legsweep defined as hitting their legs with his staff. If he doesn't have
>the staff, he can't legsweep because he learned how to do it with a big
>stick, not with his own leg.

Every martial art has one default "Weapon Element." Usually, that's
Barehanded, though some use a different weapon. In this case, the
character only learned the Staff Element, and not Barehanded. For him to
learn to use his art Barehanded (assuming there was one for that particular
art), he'd have to spend the 1 point.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"David Stallard\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 98 20:30:48
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
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On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:42:26 -0500, David Stallard wrote:

>Message text written by Dataweaver
>>Then apply the +1/2 A "Doesn't require skill to reshuffle points", as
>listed in the rulebook.<
>
>I've always been under the impression that the big limiting factor in a
>VPP's power is that you have to reshuffle points...this prevents you from
>having every power in the book at the same time. By applying the advantage
>you mention above, you essentially have every power known to man, available
>at any time. That might be a little too much for me to allow as a GM.

Not so at all. If you move points from one Power to another, the first
disappears; there's nothing to stop you having two half-strength
powers, though.

Example: Shapeshifter forms his legs into a finned tail to assist in
swimming; later the villian he is pursuing takes to the air so he grows
wings, losing his tail in the process.

qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:33:17 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
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On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:
> Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> > 2. The Damage Shield seems OK to me. It stretches the letter of the
> rules a bit, but not enough that I'd call for even a +1/4 Advantage; it's
> at least within the spirit of the rules.<
>
> I'm not sure why you say that a Damage Shield, Usable Against Others, Only
> vs held inanimate objects, stretches the letter of the rules. How would
> you simulate the ability to encompass your weapon in a mystic fire?

It sounds like you want the Mystic Fire to do two different things:

1) Add to the damage of the weapon
2) Hurt anyone that tries to touch the weapon (i.e. ina Grab Weapon
maneuver, etc)

Is this right?

I would call 1) extra dice of HA or HKA with a Focus limitation (OIF if
you could do it with any weapon, or OAF if it were only with that
particular weapon). For 2), well, I'd have to know something about the
SFX. Could the character surround the staff with mystic fire if he weren't
holding it? If not, then I'd just say that the character's damage shield
applied to the staff as well. If so...well, I'd have to think about it.

J

"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:36:06 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
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At 01:56 PM 3/16/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade
>> 2. The Damage Shield seems OK to me. It stretches the letter of the
>rules a bit, but not enough that I'd call for even a +1/4 Advantage; it's
>at least within the spirit of the rules.<
>
>I'm not sure why you say that a Damage Shield, Usable Against Others, Only
>vs held inanimate objects, stretches the letter of the rules. How would
>you simulate the ability to encompass your weapon in a mystic fire? I
>think maybe some people misunderstood the way we implemented the "mystic
>fire". We bought 2 separate damage shields...one of them is a garden
>variety which goes around the character, and the other is the one I just
>described, which basically extends this aura of mystic fire so that it
>covers the weapon too. If there's a better way to do this, please let me
>know.

What would be "stretching the letter of the rules" is using a Damage
Shield that covers a weapon. Oh, and I'd consider it a waste of points to
buy that as a separate Damage Shield; either he has a Damage Shield, or
doesn't, but he shouldn't need two to represent the same Shield.
On the other hand, if you want to represent the character taking damage
twice with a separate power, use Energy Blast, No Range, Linked to the main
Hand-to-Hand Attack rather than a Damage Shield.

>> That much said, though, I'd recommend that you make sure that both the
>Damage Shield and the most powerful Martial Arts attack do about 2 DCs less
>than the usual starting point for the campaign. This is effectively two
>attacks which are able to strike the same target with the same Attack Roll,
>even though they apply against two different defenses (the Martial attack
>vs PD, the fire vs ED).<
>
>Yes, I made sure that his Offensive Strike plus the Damage Shield did less
>than the maximum DC (I think it was 11d6 combined). The Damage Shield
>costs something like 4 END (I'm going from memory here), so he won't be
>using it all the time either.

That, plus the fact that both will be defended against separately, is a
good reason to allow something that exceeds the campaign limits in total.
Basically, the effect of PD/ED will become exaggerated; opponents with high
defenses will shrug it off even more readily than most attacks, while those
with low defenses will be taken out even more easily than usual.

>> 3. Perhaps you needn't worry too much about the bullets, but he should
>be unless he has a remarkably high DCV. Recommend that he at least wear a
>bulletproof vest or lightly armored costume or something. But don't force
>the issue; let him get shot a few times (non-lethally, of course), and make
>his own decision.<
>
>He can get a remarkably high DCV using some of his defensive Martial
>Maneuvers. The other player without rPD/rED, though, has an 8 DCV (decent,
>but within the normal range for my campaign) and no way to increase it
>outside of the standard melee maneuvers. I'm pretty sure he'll regret that
>before too long (I suggested CSLs quite a few times, but he opted not to
>take them)

Well, as long as they know what kind of trouble they're getting into.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 98 20:37:36
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Small campaign
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On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 08:40:13 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:

> So what does a GM do when the campaign is to be located in New York?
> In the past, the assumption has been that some excuse will be made for
>each of the other groups. Just by coincidence, every time the Utlimates
>try to raid something in New York, the Champions are off saving the world.

And miss out on the fun of two Superhero groups showing up at the same
time? I've done this with FH characters: a NPC party of considerable
power 'bumped into' the PCs. They joined forces and the NPCs took the
opportunity to evaluate the PCs. I used this to later (when the
combined group were conducting a post mortem) 'advise' the PCs.
qts

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:38:17 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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At 01:42 PM 3/16/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by Dataweaver
>>Then apply the +1/2 A "Doesn't require skill to reshuffle points", as
>listed in the rulebook.<
>
>I've always been under the impression that the big limiting factor in a
>VPP's power is that you have to reshuffle points...this prevents you from
>having every power in the book at the same time. By applying the advantage
>you mention above, you essentially have every power known to man, available
>at any time. That might be a little too much for me to allow as a GM.

Not if, as I suggested (though you probably hadn't seen it by the time
you wrote this), you Limit the types of Powers available.
---
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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:38:17 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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At 01:42 PM 3/16/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by Dataweaver
>>Then apply the +1/2 A "Doesn't require skill to reshuffle points", as
>listed in the rulebook.<
>
>I've always been under the impression that the big limiting factor in a
>VPP's power is that you have to reshuffle points...this prevents you from
>having every power in the book at the same time. By applying the advantage
>you mention above, you essentially have every power known to man, available
>at any time. That might be a little too much for me to allow as a GM.

Not if, as I suggested (though you probably hadn't seen it by the time
you wrote this), you Limit the types of Powers available.
---
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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:41:33 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Usable Against Others question...
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At 12:53 PM 3/16/1998 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> UAO does have an element where the character cannot use the power
>> herself when someone else is using it, but you would need a Limitation for
>> her to be unable to use the Power for herself at all.
>
>If this sentence is confusing you, here's my interpretation... :-P
>
>Usable By Others has an option in which the wielder loses the power when
>giving it to someone else. You should tack on a limitation to remove the
>ablility to use a UBO power on oneself.

So you're saying that what I said was not what I said, but when you say
what you think I meant to say you're really saying what I thought I was
saying. ;-]
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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:42:44 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Usable Against Others question...
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At 02:01 PM 3/16/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade
>> I have a few instances in TUSV where a Power is Usable By/Against/On
>Others, but not by the vehicle. When this happens, I give a +1/2 Advantage
>(the exception is when the vehicle has Aid, but this is a rather unique
>situation). This is based on the "Self Only" Limitation (-1/2) which has
>appeared from time to time, though I don't recall if it's made an
>appearance in 4th Ed.<
>
>Okay, I've got to know...what is TUSV? I was clueless until I saw this
>message, but now I'm thinking SV might mean Super Vehicle. Anywhere close?

On the bull's eye.
I'm crossing my fingers, but I think you can watch for that this fall
(probably just before Hero5).
---
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"David Stallard\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 98 20:44:14
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
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On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:09:32 -0500, David Stallard wrote:

>Message text written by Brian Wong
>> Then have the character buy two seperate Martial Arts Styles, one
>for the armed combat, one for the unarmed.
> After all, letting a player use the same manuever for fencing and
>for Wing Chun Kung Fu is something most reasonability checks will alarm on.
><
>
>Maybe this is a munchkin tactic, but this player just bought maneuvers off
>the list which he thought were neat...he wasn't trying to create a style or
>anything. Would you require your players to at least give a name for the
>group of maneuvers they have selected?

Fine, but he doesn't get the Style Disadvantage.
qts

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:45:10 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Usable Against Others question...
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At 01:38 PM 3/16/1998 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:
>
>> Okay, I've got to know...what is TUSV? I was clueless until I saw this
>> message, but now I'm thinking SV might mean Super Vehicle. Anywhere close?
>
>Ya. Bob "Get out of my dreams, get into my supervehicle" Greenwade is the
>author and distinguished member of this list. So when he speaks of the
>book, he speaks with authority.
>
>BTW, Bob, is it out yet?

I sent Bruce the First Draft at the beginning of February, but haven't
heard back from him. Based on comments I've gotten from Mark Arsenault,
I'm not going to even start worrying that something got lost until mid-April.
That's why I say I'm crossing my fingers for an autumn release, as
opposed to it being fairly definite. (Hey, if I had my way it'd be ready
in August. But this biz being what it is, I won't count on it.)
---
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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:46:41 -0500
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
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David Stallard wrote:
>
> I'm not sure why you say that a Damage Shield, Usable Against Others,Only
> vs held inanimate objects, stretches the letter of the rules. How would
> you simulate the ability to encompass your weapon in a mystic fire? I
> think maybe some people misunderstood the way we implemented the "mystic
> fire". We bought 2 separate damage shields...one of them is a garden
> variety which goes around the character, and the other is the one I just
> described, which basically extends this aura of mystic fire so that it
> covers the weapon too. If there's a better way to do this, please let
> me know.

It appears as though ONE of us is confused. It looks as if you want the
damage shield damage to apply to someone he ATTACKS in addition to his
normal damage. This is not how damage shield works. A damage shield
does damage to somebody who attacks HIM. The only way you can apply
your damage shield to someone else is to grab them. If you want to also
add 'mystic fire' damage to your punches, then buy extra DCs and call
them 'mystic fire', or buy an EB and link it to your punch.


> > 3. Perhaps you needn't worry too much about the bullets, but he should
> be unless he has a remarkably high DCV. Recommend that he at least wear a
> bulletproof vest or lightly armored costume or something. But don't force
> the issue; let him get shot a few times (non-lethally, of course), and make
> his own decision.

Don't worry so much about the resistant/non-resistant defenses. You'll
find that the PCs will handle that just fine on their own. (yikes, he's
got a killing attack! someone else take this one!). Also, keep in mind
that many villians will be reluctant to kill a super (tends to piss the
rest of the supers off and REALLY makes you a wanted man), and will opt
for a less lethal attack against someone with little/no resistant
defenses. (beat up a few supers, they just dont like you... kill a
super and the heroes take it personal!)


Todd

--
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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:51:27 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> It might make sense to use VPP, with a -1/2 Limitation of Types of
Powers so that they are only Shapeshifting Powers, rather than EC.
Then work with the player to create a list of Powers that he can use.
Be creative; what I do for stuff like this is wind my way through the list
of Powers, and think, "What can I do with this Power?" The list can then
be available at any time.<

If I'm understanding correctly, you would go through each power and, for
those applicable, build a version of it that has the appropriate active
points. Then you have this big list of powers (each with advantages and
limitations) that fit into the allowable active points for your VPP, which
you can choose from on the fly. Of course, this big list could have things
added to it at any time. Do I have the right idea? I've never had to deal
with a VPP before (it is often outlawed in games I've ben involved with),
so I'm just trying to figure how to plan ahead. I've noticed that some
published villains have a list of "common" slots...I think that's what
you're suggesting, but for every applicable power on the list.

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:55:13 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Disadvantages
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Does anyone else have trouble getting 150 points worth of disadvantages for
their 250-point heroes? Our group has always struggled with this...they
make a pass through the Disads section and get the ones which make sense,
and then they have to go back through and make other passes where they
struggle to think up other disads that the character might have. I haven't
had as much a problem with it as my players, but we all have trouble
getting to the 150-point mark. I'm just wondering if other groups whiz
through this section because they have a deeper character concept going
into Disads, or if it's a struggle for everyone. I should have prefaced
this by saying that we usually do Disads first, then characteristics, and
finally powers (which usually forces us to go back and lower
characteristics). Perhaps if we saved Disads until later, it would be less
of a struggle.

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:56:26 -0800 (PST)
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>
> Message text written by Brian Wong
> >Martial arts has a rule that says each weapon element you can use with it
> costs 1 point. The base element is ussually bare hands, but can be a weapon
> instead.
> Look at how fencing is done for an example. If you have TUMA or NH
> they will have even more examples of this. You get no limitation bonus for
> something that is already assumed however.<
>
> What if some martial maneuvers require a weapon, and some work either way? =

Then have the character buy two seperate Martial Arts Styles, one
for the armed combat, one for the unarmed.
After all, letting a player use the same manuever for fencing and
for Wing Chun Kung Fu is something most reasonability checks will alarm on.

You shouldn't be buying all your manuevers in one big lump and calling
it all one single martial style.
And if a style does teach how to use a given weapon, it will teach
how to use that weapon to mimic all it's principle manuevers that are
possible with that weapon. To include when that weapon is the bare body.

A person who knows one set of manuevers unarmed, and whole other set
armed; really knows two seperate martial styles.

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role Playing

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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org&>
"David Stallard" <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 98 21:01:13
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
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On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:30:05 -0500, David Stallard wrote:

>Message text written by "qts"
>>Not so at all. If you move points from one Power to another, the first
>disappears; there's nothing to stop you having two half-strength
>powers, though.
>
>Example: Shapeshifter forms his legs into a finned tail to assist in
>swimming; later the villian he is pursuing takes to the air so he grows
>wings, losing his tail in the process.<
>
>You don't find it too powerful that this particular character will have an
>answer for every situation, simply by doing a half-phase shuffle of the VPP
>points? His special effect (shapeshifting his body) will limit it a little
>bit (no raw energy spewing out of his eyes, for example), but it still
>seems like a big advantage over other characters. I'm not arguing,
>though... I'm hoping you'll convince me that it's not too powerful.
>-grin-

No, because the APs are limited by the size of the Pool, and so are the
possible effects. A player will have a stock set of effects - think of
the question, "Are you sure it will fit in your Pool?" Don't forget
that he's going to have to buy the +1 Advantage 'No Roll To Change'.


qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "R & B" <bswarren@flash.net>
Subject: RE - C: TNM
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:06:14 -0600
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I just started a new campaign based around the new millennium source
books. The conversion problem does not bother me, since I convert most
write-ups to fit scale. The setting is easy to run and provides lots of
built in hooks for adventures. Personally, I have replaced the Champions
with the PC's team.

I use 4E but since the books are by and large devoted to the setting I
feel like I am getting my money out of the Fuzion supplements.

Randy

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:09:32 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Brian Wong
> Then have the character buy two seperate Martial Arts Styles, one
for the armed combat, one for the unarmed.
After all, letting a player use the same manuever for fencing and
for Wing Chun Kung Fu is something most reasonability checks will alarm on.
<

Maybe this is a munchkin tactic, but this player just bought maneuvers off
the list which he thought were neat...he wasn't trying to create a style or
anything. Would you require your players to at least give a name for the
group of maneuvers they have selected? This is the player who owns NH, and
despite me telling him to create a character concept without looking
through rules, I'm fairly certain he just read the maneuvers in NH and
found enough cool ones that he decided to be a martial artist. Also, I'm
pretty sure that the only reason he has any maneuvers that don't require
the staff is so he won't be completely worthless without the staff.
Actually, he's still pretty worthless without the staff because he only has
Martial Dodge and one other defensive maneuver without it. This is why I
asked the original question "Is this character too limited?", which no one
has yet answered.

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:26:43 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Martial Artist: no diversity?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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I asked this question earlier, but we got sidetracked on other issues and
no one ever answered the main question. I'll try again, without all the
extra baggage:

One of my players created a character who has 5 or 6 martial maneuvers,
most of them only usable with a staff. He also has a damage shield, and he
is able to extend this damage shield so that it covers whatever weapon he
is holding. Essentially, that's the entire character (without mentioning
the skills). Oh, he also has Multiform into a 100-point normal (the normal
is possessed by the spirit of this martial artist). Anyway, if you take
his staff away, the character essentially has only a few defensive martial
maneuvers and his damage shield. It's a 250 point character, so my thought
is that he should be able to do a lot more than what I've listed.

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:30:05 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org&>
"David Stallard" <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
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Message text written by "qts"
>Not so at all. If you move points from one Power to another, the first
disappears; there's nothing to stop you having two half-strength
powers, though.

Example: Shapeshifter forms his legs into a finned tail to assist in
swimming; later the villian he is pursuing takes to the air so he grows
wings, losing his tail in the process.<

You don't find it too powerful that this particular character will have an
answer for every situation, simply by doing a half-phase shuffle of the VPP
points? His special effect (shapeshifting his body) will limit it a little
bit (no raw energy spewing out of his eyes, for example), but it still
seems like a big advantage over other characters. I'm not arguing,
though... I'm hoping you'll convince me that it's not too powerful.
-grin-

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:37:11 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Disadvantages
Cc: "\[unknown\]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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---David Stallard wrote:
>
> Does anyone else have trouble getting 150 points worth of
disadvantages for
> their 250-point heroes? Our group has always struggled with
this...they
> make a pass through the Disads section and get the ones which make
sense,
> and then they have to go back through and make other passes where they
> struggle to think up other disads that the character might have. I
haven't
> had as much a problem with it as my players, but we all have trouble
> getting to the 150-point mark. I'm just wondering if other groups
whiz
> through this section because they have a deeper character concept
going
> into Disads, or if it's a struggle for everyone. I should have
prefaced
> this by saying that we usually do Disads first, then
characteristics, and
> finally powers (which usually forces us to go back and lower
> characteristics). Perhaps if we saved Disads until later, it would
be less
> of a struggle.

Actually, I usually have just the opposite problem - trimming down my
list of disads to just a "core list" of about 150 points.

When you are building a character, are you giving thought to the
history of the character - all of those events that lead up to now? A
solid history will typically lend a wealth of ideas for disads -
particularly psych lims (and related disads) and hunteds.

Also, a strong power concept will frequently automatically suggest a
plausible vulnerablilities (this does assume that there are plausible
vulnerabilites, some power concepts just don't lend themselves to this
disad).

Again though, the most useful tool for me when thinking up disads is a
well thought-out history and personality. Without these it's very
difficult to come up with disads that make sense.
_________________________________________________________
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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:37:11 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Disadvantages
Cc: "\[unknown\]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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---David Stallard wrote:
>
> Does anyone else have trouble getting 150 points worth of
disadvantages for
> their 250-point heroes? Our group has always struggled with
this...they
> make a pass through the Disads section and get the ones which make
sense,
> and then they have to go back through and make other passes where they
> struggle to think up other disads that the character might have. I
haven't
> had as much a problem with it as my players, but we all have trouble
> getting to the 150-point mark. I'm just wondering if other groups
whiz
> through this section because they have a deeper character concept
going
> into Disads, or if it's a struggle for everyone. I should have
prefaced
> this by saying that we usually do Disads first, then
characteristics, and
> finally powers (which usually forces us to go back and lower
> characteristics). Perhaps if we saved Disads until later, it would
be less
> of a struggle.

Actually, I usually have just the opposite problem - trimming down my
list of disads to just a "core list" of about 150 points.

When you are building a character, are you giving thought to the
history of the character - all of those events that lead up to now? A
solid history will typically lend a wealth of ideas for disads -
particularly psych lims (and related disads) and hunteds.

Also, a strong power concept will frequently automatically suggest a
plausible vulnerablilities (this does assume that there are plausible
vulnerabilites, some power concepts just don't lend themselves to this
disad).

Again though, the most useful tool for me when thinking up disads is a
well thought-out history and personality. Without these it's very
difficult to come up with disads that make sense.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:38:22 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Todd Hanson
>It appears as though ONE of us is confused. It looks as if you want the
damage shield damage to apply to someone he ATTACKS in addition to his
normal damage. This is not how damage shield works. A damage shield
does damage to somebody who attacks HIM. The only way you can apply
your damage shield to someone else is to grab them. If you want to also
add 'mystic fire' damage to your punches, then buy extra DCs and call
them 'mystic fire', or buy an EB and link it to your punch.<

That doesn't sound like the way I understand Damage Shield, but maybe I'm
wrong. If I am a fire-controller with a damage shield: body on fire, then
I should be able to damage someone simply by touching them. I don't see
how it can work one way (somebody touches me) but not the other (I touch
somebody).

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:38:23 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Sakura
>It sounds like you want the Mystic Fire to do two different things:

1) Add to the damage of the weapon
2) Hurt anyone that tries to touch the weapon (i.e. ina Grab Weapon
maneuver, etc)

Is this right?<

Yes.... Essentially, the damage shield around the character will extend
itself to cover any weapon he happens to be holding. Todd Hanson said in
another message that damage shield does nothing if I touch an
opponent...the opponent only takes damage if he touches me. This is not
the way I had interpreted damage shield, so if I'm wrong, then that's the
reason for all the confusion. The way I understand it is a damage shield
does damage to whoever touches it, regardless of who initiated the touch.

>I would call 1) extra dice of HA or HKA with a Focus limitation (OIF if
you could do it with any weapon, or OAF if it were only with that
particular weapon). For 2), well, I'd have to know something about the
SFX. Could the character surround the staff with mystic fire if he weren't
holding it? If not, then I'd just say that the character's damage shield
applied to the staff as well. If so...well, I'd have to think about it.<

No, the character could only surround the staff with mystic fire if he was
touching it. I suppose it all comes down to whether or not a damage shield
automatically covers anything you are holding. I need to consult the
BBB....

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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"David Stallard\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 98 21:39:00
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
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On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:47:49 -0500, David Stallard wrote:

>Message text written by "qts"
>>Fine, but he doesn't get the Style Disadvantage.<
>
>Er, um, maybe it's time for me to reread the BBB, but I don't know what you
>mean by Style Disadvantage. If this is something presented in NH, I
>haven't read that book (I have glanced at the maneuvers he chose from NH,
>but that's it).

It is in NH. Basically it's Distinctive Features: Martial Arts Style.
Anyone with the skill Analyse Style gets benefits on a successful skill
roll.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:45:21 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Villain escape methods
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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I asked this question in the superheroes newsgroup
(rec.games.frp.super-heroes, I think it's called) several months ago and
got some valuable answers, but I'm still wondering about some aspects.

Basically, I'm wondering how the villain will escape when the PCs are
usually going to want to chase him down and capture him. Some methods I'm
aware of are:

* Take hostages
* Use a "teleporter" that the villain had ready just in case
* The villain just happens to move faster than any hero

However, you can't use a "GM teleport" trick or take hostages all the time
or the players are going to get tired of it. Let's say that I have a brick
villain which I want to be a recurring nuisance. The heroes have beaten
him up pretty bad, and now all he wants to do is get out of there before he
gets knocked out. He doesn't run that fast, and one of the heroes can fly
fast enough to catch him if he uses his superleap. There's no reason the
brick would have a teleport device, unless he was working with someone
else. At this point, would you give up and let the brick get captured?
What other methods are there to ensure that your villains aren't captured
sooner than you want them to be?

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:47:49 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by "qts"
>Fine, but he doesn't get the Style Disadvantage.<

Er, um, maybe it's time for me to reread the BBB, but I don't know what you
mean by Style Disadvantage. If this is something presented in NH, I
haven't read that book (I have glanced at the maneuvers he chose from NH,
but that's it).

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:51:12 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Villain escape methods
Cc: "\[unknown\]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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---David Stallard wrote:
>
> I asked this question in the superheroes newsgroup
> (rec.games.frp.super-heroes, I think it's called) several months ago
and
> got some valuable answers, but I'm still wondering about some aspects.
>
> Basically, I'm wondering how the villain will escape when the PCs are
> usually going to want to chase him down and capture him. Some
methods I'm
> aware of are:
>
> * Take hostages
> * Use a "teleporter" that the villain had ready just in case
> * The villain just happens to move faster than any hero
>
> However, you can't use a "GM teleport" trick or take hostages all
the time
> or the players are going to get tired of it. Let's say that I have
a brick
> villain which I want to be a recurring nuisance. The heroes have
beaten
> him up pretty bad, and now all he wants to do is get out of there
before he
> gets knocked out. He doesn't run that fast, and one of the heroes
can fly
> fast enough to catch him if he uses his superleap. There's no
reason the
> brick would have a teleport device, unless he was working with someone
> else. At this point, would you give up and let the brick get
captured?
> What other methods are there to ensure that your villains aren't
captured
> sooner than you want them to be?


Let him get captured, then (very soon thereafter) escape from police
custody - super villains are notoriously difficult to hold,
particularly real powerhouses (like bricks).


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:51:12 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Villain escape methods
Cc: "\[unknown\]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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---David Stallard wrote:
>
> I asked this question in the superheroes newsgroup
> (rec.games.frp.super-heroes, I think it's called) several months ago
and
> got some valuable answers, but I'm still wondering about some aspects.
>
> Basically, I'm wondering how the villain will escape when the PCs are
> usually going to want to chase him down and capture him. Some
methods I'm
> aware of are:
>
> * Take hostages
> * Use a "teleporter" that the villain had ready just in case
> * The villain just happens to move faster than any hero
>
> However, you can't use a "GM teleport" trick or take hostages all
the time
> or the players are going to get tired of it. Let's say that I have
a brick
> villain which I want to be a recurring nuisance. The heroes have
beaten
> him up pretty bad, and now all he wants to do is get out of there
before he
> gets knocked out. He doesn't run that fast, and one of the heroes
can fly
> fast enough to catch him if he uses his superleap. There's no
reason the
> brick would have a teleport device, unless he was working with someone
> else. At this point, would you give up and let the brick get
captured?
> What other methods are there to ensure that your villains aren't
captured
> sooner than you want them to be?


Let him get captured, then (very soon thereafter) escape from police
custody - super villains are notoriously difficult to hold,
particularly real powerhouses (like bricks).


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:52:49 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> What would be "stretching the letter of the rules" is using a Damage
Shield that covers a weapon. Oh, and I'd consider it a waste of points to
buy that as a separate Damage Shield; either he has a Damage Shield, or
doesn't, but he shouldn't need two to represent the same Shield.
On the other hand, if you want to represent the character taking damage
twice with a separate power, use Energy Blast, No Range, Linked to the main
Hand-to-Hand Attack rather than a Damage Shield.<

Should his Damage Shield be bought with an advantage "covers handheld
objects as well", or would you say that this is merely special effect and
he pays for only the garden-variety damage shield? To be honest, the only
reason he wants this is to get more dice in his damage roll, but as you
pointed out (not quoted above), it will not mean much to villains with
higher defenses because the weapon damage and Damage Shield damage will be
handled separately.

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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:56:24 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Disadvantages
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David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve> writes:
>
> Does anyone else have trouble getting 150 points worth of disadvantages f=
> or
> their 250-point heroes? Our group has always struggled with this...they
>

Remember that you aren't required to get the full amount of disadvantages.
I asked a little while back how many people usually took the full amount.
It did look like most people do 'max out the disadvantages'.

I don't normally have much problem with it. If I remember right, the 'worse'
I ever got was around 220 points of disadvantages on a 3rd edition character.
This was before they put a limit on maximum disads. I believe I had a
somewhat plausible explanation for each disad.

Curt Hicks

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:01:09 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: RE - C: TNM
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by "R & B"
> I just started a new campaign based around the new millennium source
books. The conversion problem does not bother me, since I convert most
write-ups to fit scale. The setting is easy to run and provides lots of
built in hooks for adventures. Personally, I have replaced the Champions
with the PC's team.<

That's the main reason I am using Bay City -- it has lots of hooks for
adventures, thus saving me some "homework" as GM. Some might call me lazy,
but I don't have the time or the inclination to devise my own world when
there are published ones that I know will be better. Since my PC group is
only two strong, I didn't replace the Champions, but I plan to have the PCs
interact with the Champions quite a bit.

> I use 4E but since the books are by and large devoted to the setting I
feel like I am getting my money out of the Fuzion supplements.<

So far, I agree...the C:NM supplements have been almost all about setting
(and maybe I'm a product of the Image universe, but I much prefer this
setting to the Champions Universe). I don't know how long this will
continue, though. Eventually there will be a supplement with a lot of
rules talk, which probably won't be one I pick up.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:01:10 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Usable Against Others question...
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> I sent Bruce the First Draft at the beginning of February, but haven't
heard back from him. Based on comments I've gotten from Mark Arsenault,
I'm not going to even start worrying that something got lost until
mid-April.
That's why I say I'm crossing my fingers for an autumn release, as
opposed to it being fairly definite. (Hey, if I had my way it'd be ready
in August. But this biz being what it is, I won't count on it.)<

Is this going to be a 4E supplement published by Hero themselves? I
thought they had pretty much given up support of 4E to GRG. Unless this is
going to be a Hero Plus supplement?

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:01:58 -0800
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell)
Subject: Re: Villain escape methods
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-> From DBStallard@compuserve.com Mon Mar 16 13:46:15 1998
->
-> I asked this question in the superheroes newsgroup
-> (rec.games.frp.super-heroes, I think it's called) several months ago and
-> got some valuable answers, but I'm still wondering about some aspects.
->
-> Basically, I'm wondering how the villain will escape when the PCs are
-> usually going to want to chase him down and capture him. Some methods I'm
-> aware of are:
->
-> * Take hostages
-> * Use a "teleporter" that the villain had ready just in case
-> * The villain just happens to move faster than any hero
->
-> However, you can't use a "GM teleport" trick or take hostages all the time
-> or the players are going to get tired of it. Let's say that I have a brick
-> villain which I want to be a recurring nuisance. The heroes have beaten
-> him up pretty bad, and now all he wants to do is get out of there before he
-> gets knocked out. He doesn't run that fast, and one of the heroes can fly
-> fast enough to catch him if he uses his superleap. There's no reason the
-> brick would have a teleport device, unless he was working with someone
-> else. At this point, would you give up and let the brick get captured?
-> What other methods are there to ensure that your villains aren't captured
-> sooner than you want them to be?

I had a female crystalline brick named Solitaire who was a recurring character.
She was a mercenary thief and she would show up in the middle of pitched battles
to steal something, when the heroes were too busy with the main villains. She
was tough enough that it would take a concerted effort to take her out, and since
she was just a thief the heroes would always have to go after the more dangerous
bad guys instead of her. She showed up many times but never got caught.

-Sam

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X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:02:35 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Disadvantages
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On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> Does anyone else have trouble getting 150 points worth of disadvantages for
> their 250-point heroes?

Yup. It's even worse with the 'high-powered superheros' - I think it's
225 points of disads? I created a super on that power level once and had
to severely struggle to get that many disadvantages, including taking some
that didn't fit the concept very well.

> Our group has always struggled with this...they
> make a pass through the Disads section and get the ones which make sense,
> and then they have to go back through and make other passes where they
> struggle to think up other disads that the character might have.

I think that part of this is due to the attitude that a lot of HERO
players have...Pyschlim: Must max out on disads. Of course, that attitude
is reinforced by the fact that if you don't take disads, you usually can't
get a character that's anywhere near the campaign power levels for DC and
CV...and if you do there's no room for 'power stunts' or background
skills, etc.

> I should have prefaced
> this by saying that we usually do Disads first, then characteristics, and
> finally powers (which usually forces us to go back and lower
> characteristics). Perhaps if we saved Disads until later, it would be less
> of a struggle.

Not really - I generally do disads last or close to last, and I have just
as much trouble - especially since a lot of my character concepts preclude
some major categories of disadvantages. (I don't generally have concepts
that lend themselves to vulnerabilities or susceptibilities, for instance)
And one can only take so many Enemies and PsychLims...

Generally, I think that the ratio is way off for base points/points from
disads. I frequently reverse it (150 base, 100 from disads) or give even
more base points - I want the players taking the disads that they feel are
right for the character, rather than cramming more of them in to get
enough points to be competetive.

J

"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:04:13 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: huge dudes with capes
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> Don't use just one opponent. Use several.<

Ah...so really you have a small stable of "primary" opponents to choose
from. That makes a lot more sense to me than having one villain team
showing up constantly.

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:12:11 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Martial Artist: no diversity?
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On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> One of my players created a character who has 5 or 6 martial maneuvers,
> most of them only usable with a staff. He also has a damage shield, and he
> is able to extend this damage shield so that it covers whatever weapon he
> is holding. Essentially, that's the entire character (without mentioning
> the skills). Oh, he also has Multiform into a 100-point normal (the normal
> is possessed by the spirit of this martial artist). Anyway, if you take
> his staff away, the character essentially has only a few defensive martial
> maneuvers and his damage shield. It's a 250 point character, so my thought
> is that he should be able to do a lot more than what I've listed.

Er...what did he spend all the points on? If he sunk most of the points
into the staff, that's going to be a whopper of an attack. If he's got
superb SPD and DEX, then he's going to be decently effective with the
'normal' combat maneuvers even if he doesn't have the staff.

Could you post the whole character sheet along with the campaign averages?

J

"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:15:41 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Villain escape methods
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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At 04:45 PM 3/16/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote:

>However, you can't use a "GM teleport" trick or take hostages all the time
>or the players are going to get tired of it. Let's say that I have a brick
>villain which I want to be a recurring nuisance. The heroes have beaten
>him up pretty bad, and now all he wants to do is get out of there before he
>gets knocked out. He doesn't run that fast, and one of the heroes can fly
>fast enough to catch him if he uses his superleap. There's no reason the
>brick would have a teleport device, unless he was working with someone
>else. At this point, would you give up and let the brick get captured?
>What other methods are there to ensure that your villains aren't captured
>sooner than you want them to be?

Other possibilities:

The Power-Damping Handcuffs weren't tuned to the villains Metabiological
Field Frequency and he escaped from prison.

One of the guards was a confederate.

The villain blasts a gas pipe/water pipe/support structure for the 'El'/etc.

Runs into a subway tunnel and smashes it down behind him;by the time the
heroes are through it, he's long gone.

While he's languishing in jail awaiting his lawyer, his pals Mangor The
Murderous and Doctor Devastator decide to give him a hand.

Etc.

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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:15:41 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Villain escape methods
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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At 04:45 PM 3/16/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote:

>However, you can't use a "GM teleport" trick or take hostages all the time
>or the players are going to get tired of it. Let's say that I have a brick
>villain which I want to be a recurring nuisance. The heroes have beaten
>him up pretty bad, and now all he wants to do is get out of there before he
>gets knocked out. He doesn't run that fast, and one of the heroes can fly
>fast enough to catch him if he uses his superleap. There's no reason the
>brick would have a teleport device, unless he was working with someone
>else. At this point, would you give up and let the brick get captured?
>What other methods are there to ensure that your villains aren't captured
>sooner than you want them to be?

Other possibilities:

The Power-Damping Handcuffs weren't tuned to the villains Metabiological
Field Frequency and he escaped from prison.

One of the guards was a confederate.

The villain blasts a gas pipe/water pipe/support structure for the 'El'/etc.

Runs into a subway tunnel and smashes it down behind him;by the time the
heroes are through it, he's long gone.

While he's languishing in jail awaiting his lawyer, his pals Mangor The
Murderous and Doctor Devastator decide to give him a hand.

Etc.

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:20:00 -0800
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com>
Subject: Re: Villain escape methods
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At 04:45 PM 3/16/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>
>
>However, you can't use a "GM teleport" trick or take hostages all the time
>or the players are going to get tired of it. Let's say that I have a brick
>villain which I want to be a recurring nuisance. The heroes have beaten
>him up pretty bad, and now all he wants to do is get out of there before he
>gets knocked out. He doesn't run that fast, and one of the heroes can fly
>fast enough to catch him if he uses his superleap. There's no reason the
>brick would have a teleport device, unless he was working with someone
>else. At this point, would you give up and let the brick get captured?
>What other methods are there to ensure that your villains aren't captured
>sooner than you want them to be?

Sometimes comic books are the best sources for interesting escape scenarios.

In The Incredible Hulk #449, the Hulk wants to get away from the newest
hero team to hit the Marvel U, the Thunderbolts. So, in order to keep them
from following him as he flees, he punches a hole in a nearby dam. The
heroes are forced to see to rescuing people rather than continue their
attack on the Hulk.

Taking that basic idea, there are lots of ways for villains to create
distractions to keep the heroes busy, that don't always directly involve
hostages. Setting a building on fire, knocking out a bridge's supports,
that sort of stuff. A real strong brick could even throw something through
the wing of a jet passing overhead if he was strong enough and had a good aim.

Another idea is to teach the heroes not to split up when chasing down
villains. If it is only one hero that can catch the villain as he feels,
have the villain contact either some buddies or maybe that fast hero's
hunted. The brick villain pre-arranges an escape route that will lead the
pursuing hero into a nasty ambush. The brick escapes and the hero may be
forced to flee himself.

-Nic


+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| naneiden@iswest.com |
| Justice, Like Lightning, Thunderbolts! |
| http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/thunder.html |
| Costumed Heroines |
| http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/index.html |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:21:06 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Secret ID / Public ID
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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If a character does not have a Secret ID or a Public ID, does it mean that
he is not hiding the fact that he is a hero, but that he isn't all that
famous either? In other words, the people in his neighborhood know that
there's a hero living in that house, but his address is not worth
publishing in hero tabloids or a "who's who" book?

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:21:31 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Disadvantages
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by INTERNET:john.desmarais@ibm.net
>When you are building a character, are you giving thought to the
history of the character - all of those events that lead up to now? A
solid history will typically lend a wealth of ideas for disads -
particularly psych lims (and related disads) and hunteds.<

Actually, the process of selecting disads is what gets my players to really
think about the history and personality. The one area where they have no
trouble getting disads is the psych lims... I constantly have to remind
them that you can only have 50 points worth of any one disad type. They
have trouble with the other areas, though, because they generally want zero
or one of a type of disadvantage, and end up taking more than they want
just so they can get to 150 points.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Drwoolf <Drwoolf@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:30:37 EST
Subject: Re: Campaign Suggestions 2
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Try looking at console games for inspiration. There are several games out
right now for the Sony Playstation that have great undead creature designs and
they're packed full of other ideas also. Look for Resident Evil or Nightmare
Creatures they belong on the top of your list. Also, if your looking for good
gaming soundtrack these games should have them (they are creepy too the max).
I just don't know where you can get the soundtrack for them on the internet.

Dave

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:48:07 -0500 (EST)
From: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
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> > Would you allow this stuff in an Elemental Control? My first
> > instinct was "no", but we tried using a Multipower and it was very
> > awkward, since several of his powers did not make sense with varying
> > power levels... Anyway, when I saw that it was going to be very
> > difficult to create this character with only 250 points, I allowed
> > him to use an EC just so he'd have enough points to get the basic
> > concept down (I always think of Multipowers as saving more points,
> > so I'm always surprised when an EC gives me better savings...maybe
> > if I spent a few minutes to figure out the math, I wouldn't be
> > surprised anymore). As it was, we had to dump a lot of cool ideas
> > because we didn't have the points.

I would skip the EC idea. The EC would encompass too much. A true Q can
do anything... This power is actually best suited for a variable power
pool - god like power... He can do anything he wants, just can't do it
all at the same time.

David

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:48:22 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Test please ignore
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sent at 4:48.

Curt

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:51:41 +1000 (EST)
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
Subject: Re: Villain escape methods
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At 04:45 PM 16/03/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I asked this question in the superheroes newsgroup
>(rec.games.frp.super-heroes, I think it's called) several months ago and
>got some valuable answers, but I'm still wondering about some aspects.
>
>Basically, I'm wondering how the villain will escape when the PCs are
>usually going to want to chase him down and capture him. Some methods I'm
>aware of are:
>
>* Take hostages
>* Use a "teleporter" that the villain had ready just in case
>* The villain just happens to move faster than any hero
>
>However, you can't use a "GM teleport" trick or take hostages all the time
>or the players are going to get tired of it. Let's say that I have a brick
>villain which I want to be a recurring nuisance. The heroes have beaten
>him up pretty bad, and now all he wants to do is get out of there before he
>gets knocked out. He doesn't run that fast, and one of the heroes can fly
>fast enough to catch him if he uses his superleap. There's no reason the
>brick would have a teleport device, unless he was working with someone
>else. At this point, would you give up and let the brick get captured?
>What other methods are there to ensure that your villains aren't captured
>sooner than you want them to be?
>
>

A) maybe you should stop insisting the players don't catch him. plots aren't written in stone. .

B) have him escape aftr the police take him away

C) he's a brick- do something cool. pull down a building, jump down a pit, or punch your way
into a pre-prepared tunel.



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X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:52:39 -0500
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@Concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 05:21 PM 3/16/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>If a character does not have a Secret ID or a Public ID, does it mean that
>he is not hiding the fact that he is a hero, but that he isn't all that
>famous either? In other words, the people in his neighborhood know that
>there's a hero living in that house, but his address is not worth
>publishing in hero tabloids or a "who's who" book?


That's pretty much it. There's no attempt to disguise himself, nor
much reason that anyone would happen to know him. This could be because:
- he's just not that good
- he doesn't talk to the press
- he hasn't been in town long
- he hasn't figured out the whole famous hero / endangered DNPC thing

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Drwoolf <Drwoolf@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:53:15 EST
Subject: Re: Martial Artist: no diversity?
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My favorite character is from a GURPS IST campaign that got translated into
Hero. His name is Tempest and he's modeled after the electrical guy from Big
Trouble In little China. He has a Jeet Kun Do MA skill set (ALA Bruce Lee),
all of your typical MA movie extras (rapid fire punch, superleap), and
electrical powers that allow him to turn his body into electricity and move
through somebody (t-port/EB), damage field, and of course throw lightning that
flashes people all for 250 pts plus experience points. How's that for
diversity. I do admit that the manuevers themselves are a small set (about 7
different manuevers for this guy) but it's how you use and describe them that
makes the difference. I've done or tried just about every Jackie Chan, Jet
Li, Bruce Le, etc. schtick in the book and that's what makes it work. You
can't just sit there and say "I martial punch the guy".

So as far as diversity goes I say it's not what you bough that counts but how
you use it.

If anybody else plays a MA character or has any ideas I'd be happy to hear
them.

Dave

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From: Prodipto Roy <proy@MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: RE: Secret ID / Public ID
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:03:41 -0800
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To: champ-l@omg.org

Precisely. Secret ID implies that you have a need to conceal your identity
and that unfortunate consequences would occur if it is revealed. Public ID
means that the general populace is aware of the character's identity, and he
can't go out and about without being recognized (kind of like celebrities in
this day and age). I had (have?) a character who didn't take either. It
didn't make sense for him to have a Secret ID since he had nothing to hide,
but the general public didn't know who he really was. Only the rest of the
team, and the occasional supervillain or other NPC found out. He actually
wound up being one of the most carefree characters I've ever run. He didn't
really have anything to hide. Of course he did have this problem with
attacking female supervillains....

--Pro

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Stallard [SMTP:DBStallard@compuserve.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 16, 1998 2:21 PM
> To: champ-l@omg.org
> Cc: [unknown]
> Subject: Secret ID / Public ID
>
> If a character does not have a Secret ID or a Public ID, does it mean that
> he is not hiding the fact that he is a hero, but that he isn't all that
> famous either? In other words, the people in his neighborhood know that
> there's a hero living in that house, but his address is not worth
> publishing in hero tabloids or a "who's who" book?

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Drwoolf <Drwoolf@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:03:55 EST
Subject: Re: Villain escape methods
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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What about the surrender option. If the villian is working for/with somebody
else he might feel confident that they're going to break him out anyway. They
also might have really good lawyers so he's bound to get out on a
technicality. Either of these two options are sure to steam up your players
or move things along as they try to follow the guy after he gets out of jail
to see if he goes back to the secret base/hideout or incriminates himself.
Also, what if the villian notices being followed and then calls the police on
the heros. Wouldn't that be a sticky situation.

A flash bomb might also work for get-aways. You just pick the right time to
throw it down and then run like crazy while everybody is still dazzled.

There is also the old tried and true "blend into the crowd" routine where you
use some kind of distraction to get out of sight and then throw on the old
disguise and head out with the rest of the normals.

Well, if you come up with more let me know.

Dave

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:11:54 -0500
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

David Stallard wrote:
>
> Message text written by Todd Hanson
> >It appears as though ONE of us is confused. It looks as if you want
> the
> damage shield damage to apply to someone he ATTACKS in addition to his
> normal damage. This is not how damage shield works. A damage shield
> does damage to somebody who attacks HIM. The only way you can apply
> your damage shield to someone else is to grab them. If you want to
> also
> add 'mystic fire' damage to your punches, then buy extra DCs and call
> them 'mystic fire', or buy an EB and link it to your punch.<
>
> That doesn't sound like the way I understand Damage Shield, but maybe I'm
> wrong. If I am a fire-controller with a damage shield: body on fire, then
> I should be able to damage someone simply by touching them. I don't see
> how it can work one way (somebody touches me) but not the other (I
> touch somebody).

You are confusing special effect and game mechanics.

the special effect says that you do damage both ways - the game mechanic
says you still have to buy both powers.

In the BBB, it specifically says that you only apply your damage shield
if you grab someone.


Todd


--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Todd Hanson Minnesota: Land of two seasons:
BadTodd@dacmail.net winter is coming, winter is here.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Prodipto Roy <proy@MICROSOFT.com>
Subject: RE: Villain escape methods
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:15:27 -0800
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> At 04:45 PM 3/16/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>
> >However, you can't use a "GM teleport" trick or take hostages all the
> time
> >or the players are going to get tired of it. Let's say that I have a
> brick
> >villain which I want to be a recurring nuisance. The heroes have beaten
> >him up pretty bad, and now all he wants to do is get out of there before
> he
> >gets knocked out. He doesn't run that fast, and one of the heroes can
> fly
> >fast enough to catch him if he uses his superleap. There's no reason the
> >brick would have a teleport device, unless he was working with someone
> >else. At this point, would you give up and let the brick get captured?
> >What other methods are there to ensure that your villains aren't captured
> >sooner than you want them to be?
>
I had a couple of interesting villains. One didn't have any super powers at
all (a gadgeteer). So, he was never put in Stronghold. Rather, he'd go to
regular prison, from which he'd promptly escape using something he'd cobbled
together with plastic spoons and dryer lint. The other was a brick with a
*very* good lawyer. The group would capture him, and he'd get off. Later
on, I let him relocate for a while (and give the players some time to
breathe). I then mentioned a news article one of them read where the
villain had sued another superteam and won. It always gave them pause when
they knew he was in town.

--Pro

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: traveler owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:28:59 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
Subject: EC and VPP
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

Here's an idea that I've been toying around with for some time now:

Elemental Power Pool
--------------------

This is actually a combination of a Variable Power Pool and an Elemental
Control; decide upon the pool cost, and apply that as a discount for any
power that matches the pool's special effect in a manner similar to an
Elemental Control. Furthermore, pay a Control Cost on the Pool Cost just
like you would for a VPP; you are not allowed to buy off the skill roll
requirement with an Advantage, nor do you get a discount for the pool
being restricted to a single special effect. The associated skill
represents your ability to improvise powers on the fly, while the
Elemental Control represents those effects that you've already mastered...

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:32:10 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: huge dudes with capes
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 05:04 PM 3/16/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade
>> Don't use just one opponent. Use several.<
>
>Ah...so really you have a small stable of "primary" opponents to choose
>from. That makes a lot more sense to me than having one villain team
>showing up constantly.

Precisely. :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:33:16 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Disadvantages
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

At 03:55 PM 3/16/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Does anyone else have trouble getting 150 points worth of disadvantages for
>their 250-point heroes? Our group has always struggled with this...they
>make a pass through the Disads section and get the ones which make sense,
>and then they have to go back through and make other passes where they
>struggle to think up other disads that the character might have. I haven't
>had as much a problem with it as my players, but we all have trouble
>getting to the 150-point mark. I'm just wondering if other groups whiz
>through this section because they have a deeper character concept going
>into Disads, or if it's a struggle for everyone. I should have prefaced
>this by saying that we usually do Disads first, then characteristics, and
>finally powers (which usually forces us to go back and lower
>characteristics). Perhaps if we saved Disads until later, it would be less
>of a struggle.

It probably would. I always do Disads last, and I usually have to
struggle to keep the total *down* to 150. That's part of why I've raised
my level to 200 points in Disads for my campaign.
If you get stuck, you might try exacerbating existing Disadvantage. For
instance, if your character is Vulnerable to Fire and you need more points,
then make him 2X Vulnerable instead of 1.5, make him Vulnerable to BODY as
well as STUN, give him a Susceptibility vs high temperatures (say, over 90
degrees F), give him a Psych Limit: Pyrophobia, etc.
I'm also infamous for using "Automatic Hunters" for PCs in various
situations. If I have a mutant, he's Hunted by Genocide. If I have an
alien, he's Hunted by the Exterminators, and probably Watched by METE. If
I have a cyborg, he's probably Hunted by Cy-Force. If I have a mentalist,
he's Hunted by Headhunter. If I have a mentalist who's also a mutant, he's
Hunted by PSI (in addition to Genocide and Headhunter). And so forth.
(Rattler, the "GM PC" on my website, is an example of this taken to an
intentional extreme.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:35:33 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

At 03:46 PM 3/16/1998 -0500, Todd Hanson wrote:
>> > 3. Perhaps you needn't worry too much about the bullets, but he should
>> be unless he has a remarkably high DCV. Recommend that he at least wear a
>> bulletproof vest or lightly armored costume or something. But don't force
>> the issue; let him get shot a few times (non-lethally, of course), and make
>> his own decision.
>
>Don't worry so much about the resistant/non-resistant defenses. You'll
>find that the PCs will handle that just fine on their own. (yikes, he's
>got a killing attack! someone else take this one!). Also, keep in mind
>that many villians will be reluctant to kill a super (tends to piss the
>rest of the supers off and REALLY makes you a wanted man), and will opt
>for a less lethal attack against someone with little/no resistant
>defenses. (beat up a few supers, they just dont like you... kill a
>super and the heroes take it personal!)

As to that last point... that was once the case with the police, and now
there are criminals who take pride in being cop killers. By the same
token, while what you say would be historically true of "hero killers," I
wouldn't be at all surprised if the same path was taken.
Hm... VOICE of Doom, anyone? ;-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:41:43 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Disadvantages
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To: champ-l@omg.org

>Does anyone else have trouble getting 150 points worth of disadvantages for
>their 250-point heroes? Our group has always struggled with this...they
>make a pass through the Disads section and get the ones which make sense,
>and then they have to go back through and make other passes where they
>struggle to think up other disads that the character might have.

Not so much that I CAN'T come up with that many points as I usually cant do
it without really adding crap on and increasing levels in the disads that
make sense just for the points... we build our guys at 150+100 in disads...
and many take more than 100 points due to conception. But often, unless you
are making Alpha Flight, you hit a wall where you just start tacking on to
make the points up and that doesn't make the game any better nor funner.

----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:43:55 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 04:09 PM 3/16/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by Brian Wong
>> Then have the character buy two seperate Martial Arts Styles, one
>for the armed combat, one for the unarmed.
> After all, letting a player use the same manuever for fencing and
>for Wing Chun Kung Fu is something most reasonability checks will alarm on.
><
>
>Maybe this is a munchkin tactic, but this player just bought maneuvers off
>the list which he thought were neat...he wasn't trying to create a style or
>anything. Would you require your players to at least give a name for the
>group of maneuvers they have selected? This is the player who owns NH, and
>despite me telling him to create a character concept without looking
>through rules, I'm fairly certain he just read the maneuvers in NH and
>found enough cool ones that he decided to be a martial artist. Also, I'm
>pretty sure that the only reason he has any maneuvers that don't require
>the staff is so he won't be completely worthless without the staff.
>Actually, he's still pretty worthless without the staff because he only has
>Martial Dodge and one other defensive maneuver without it. This is why I
>asked the original question "Is this character too limited?", which no one
>has yet answered.

To that first question... yes, there should be a name and a unifying
theme to the art. There should -- nay *must* -- be a unifying theme to the
maneuvers, some reason that these maneuvers are together.
Have him write out a background for his Martial Art. It should be at
least as detailed as the write-ups in Ninja Hero, and should explain why it
developed the way it did. Have him give each maneuver a name other than
the name from the Martial Art Maneuvers List -- something that can indicate
whether a blow is done high, low, through the middle, etc. ("Martial
Strike" isn't descriptive; "Thrust" is.) He could even develop a couple of
"special abilities" for the Art, and use experience (and role-played
training sessions) to buy them later on.
Then he should buy his art *straight,* and assume a Staff weapon element
as default (he can add Barehanded if he wants, or even take Barehanded as
the default and add on Staff).
As I said previously, he *could* be allowed to take his staff as a Focus
for his Martial Arts, but then the Martial Art is in the staff, not his own
training. He'd be unable to use his Art with any other staff, and there's
always the possibility that someone else could pick it up and use his
Martial Arts.
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X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:46:06 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Villain escape methods
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>Basically, I'm wondering how the villain will escape when the PCs are
>usually going to want to chase him down and capture him. Some methods I'm
>aware of are:
>
>* Take hostages
>* Use a "teleporter" that the villain had ready just in case
>* The villain just happens to move faster than any hero

Im fond of letting them catch the guy and having him escape from jail or
just buy off the jury or something later... but remember: PCs who
continuously fail to bring the bad guy to justice become very frustrated.
Frustrated PCs can lead to players becoming disgruntled, bloodthirsty, or
lawless. Let em take out the bad guy for good once in a while, let them
take down the villain and keep him in jail a while... this is once place
that the comics dont neccessarily carry over well, because players take a
personal interest in what happens.

Captain America can put up with the Red Skull getting away or coming back
12419 times because the writer finds it useful. But Caps player in a game
will start looking for a way to take this evil thing out of the picture for
good.

----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:47:31 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
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At 04:52 PM 3/16/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade
>> What would be "stretching the letter of the rules" is using a Damage
>Shield that covers a weapon. Oh, and I'd consider it a waste of points to
>buy that as a separate Damage Shield; either he has a Damage Shield, or
>doesn't, but he shouldn't need two to represent the same Shield.
> On the other hand, if you want to represent the character taking damage
>twice with a separate power, use Energy Blast, No Range, Linked to the main
>Hand-to-Hand Attack rather than a Damage Shield.<
>
>Should his Damage Shield be bought with an advantage "covers handheld
>objects as well", or would you say that this is merely special effect and
>he pays for only the garden-variety damage shield? To be honest, the only
>reason he wants this is to get more dice in his damage roll, but as you
>pointed out (not quoted above), it will not mean much to villains with
>higher defenses because the weapon damage and Damage Shield damage will be
>handled separately.

Yes, to all of the above. :-]
Though I'm fairly provisional about this application of Damage Shield.
I *might* well require that Energy Blast, 0 END, No Range, Linked to Damage
Shield, Linked to Martial Arts (yeah, I know, folks, that's stretching the
rules a tad) be taken to represent this effect.
---
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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:48:56 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
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At 04:47 PM 3/16/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by "qts"
>>Fine, but he doesn't get the Style Disadvantage.<
>
>Er, um, maybe it's time for me to reread the BBB, but I don't know what you
>mean by Style Disadvantage. If this is something presented in NH, I
>haven't read that book (I have glanced at the maneuvers he chose from NH,
>but that's it).

It's from NH. See page 50. (Also TUMA page 164.)
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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:51:02 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Martial Artist: no diversity?
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At 04:26 PM 3/16/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>I asked this question earlier, but we got sidetracked on other issues and
>no one ever answered the main question. I'll try again, without all the
>extra baggage:
>
>One of my players created a character who has 5 or 6 martial maneuvers,
>most of them only usable with a staff. He also has a damage shield, and he
>is able to extend this damage shield so that it covers whatever weapon he
>is holding. Essentially, that's the entire character (without mentioning
>the skills). Oh, he also has Multiform into a 100-point normal (the normal
>is possessed by the spirit of this martial artist). Anyway, if you take
>his staff away, the character essentially has only a few defensive martial
>maneuvers and his damage shield. It's a 250 point character, so my thought
>is that he should be able to do a lot more than what I've listed.

Yes, he ought to be able to. If nothing else, he should be proficient
in the Normal's profession. The language of the original Martial Artist
and some cultural knowledge would be a good idea too.
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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:52:37 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
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At 05:21 PM 3/16/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>If a character does not have a Secret ID or a Public ID, does it mean that
>he is not hiding the fact that he is a hero, but that he isn't all that
>famous either? In other words, the people in his neighborhood know that
>there's a hero living in that house, but his address is not worth
>publishing in hero tabloids or a "who's who" book?

Something like that.
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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:56:37 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
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At 03:51 PM 3/16/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade
>> It might make sense to use VPP, with a -1/2 Limitation of Types of
>Powers so that they are only Shapeshifting Powers, rather than EC.
> Then work with the player to create a list of Powers that he can use.
>Be creative; what I do for stuff like this is wind my way through the list
>of Powers, and think, "What can I do with this Power?" The list can then
>be available at any time.<
>
>If I'm understanding correctly, you would go through each power and, for
>those applicable, build a version of it that has the appropriate active
>points. Then you have this big list of powers (each with advantages and
>limitations) that fit into the allowable active points for your VPP, which
>you can choose from on the fly. Of course, this big list could have things
>added to it at any time. Do I have the right idea? I've never had to deal
>with a VPP before (it is often outlawed in games I've ben involved with),
>so I'm just trying to figure how to plan ahead. I've noticed that some
>published villains have a list of "common" slots...I think that's what
>you're suggesting, but for every applicable power on the list.

Yes -- or, at least, the Powers that the character is fairly likely to
use. (Don't push your brain too far, at least for a beginning character.)
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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:56:51 -0600
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
Subject: Re: Disadvantages
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>Does anyone else have trouble getting 150 points worth of disadvantages for
>their 250-point heroes? Our group has always struggled with this...they
>make a pass through the Disads section and get the ones which make sense,
>and then they have to go back through and make other passes where they
>struggle to think up other disads that the character might have.

I had the same problem, so in the games I run, I usually give 150+disads
for a 250-275 point game.

Reminds me of a GURPS game I once played, where we got 100 pts base,
so I built a character on 105 pts (five quirks). The GM just couldn't
handle it ("but... but..."), so finally he forced me to take some sort
of Social Stigma (for the character being female), and spend the points.
That was kinda funny.

Donald

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:02:03 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
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On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Theala Sildorian wrote:

> > If a character does not have a Secret ID or a Public ID, does it
> > mean that he is not hiding the fact that he is a hero, but that he
> > isn't all that famous either? In other words, the people in his
> > neighborhood know that there's a hero living in that house, but his
> > address is not worth publishing in hero tabloids or a "who's who"
> > book?
> >
>
> Secret ID means no one knows the character is a hero (or villain),
> like Aunt May doesn't know Peter Parker is Spiderman, or that
> Commissioner Gordon doensn't know Batman is Bruce Wayne.

Definitely wrong on the first count, and quite possibly wrong on the
second, BTW... (May Parker revealed that she had known for some time about
Peter being Spiderman shortly before she died, and it has been hinted that
Gordon may know who Batman is as far back as Batman: Year One...

Secret ID means that the character leads two lives and has to put
considerable effort into keeping them seperate.

> The character hides his identity, usually to protect friends and
> families from supervillain retaliation, or to protect himself from the
> police if he is a vigilante like the Harbinger of Justice.
>
> Public ID means that everyone knows who the person is, and generally
> where they can be found (ie, everyone knows where stately Wayne Manor
> is).

Public ID actually means that the person has no privacy, which makes
keeping secrets (including an alternate identity) extremely difficult, if
not impossible.

> If the character has neither Disad, then it is assumed that the
> character may not be advertising the fact he is a superhero, but that
> he doesn't hide it either. It also means that, unless the character
> has a Rep, that no one will instantly recognize his name either.

Sounds about right; you have your privacy, and you're not leading a double
life...

> Now the rules states that you can't have both Secret ID and Public
> ID. I disagree with that rule, and in my campaign a character may
> have both if his concept justifies it. I cite Bruce Wayne as an
> example of a person who has both: everyone knows Bruce Wayne,
> business tycoon, playboy philanthropist who lives at Stately Wayne
> Manor outside of Gotham City--but no one knows he is hiding a secret:
> that he rides at night as the mysterious Batman.

I agree completely; Public ID would be better off being called Famous, and
Secret ID would be better off being called Secret.

Time to pull out the Social Limitations proposal again... ;)

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:02:33 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
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At 04:30 PM 3/16/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by "qts"
>>Not so at all. If you move points from one Power to another, the first
>disappears; there's nothing to stop you having two half-strength
>powers, though.
>
>Example: Shapeshifter forms his legs into a finned tail to assist in
>swimming; later the villian he is pursuing takes to the air so he grows
>wings, losing his tail in the process.<
>
>You don't find it too powerful that this particular character will have an
>answer for every situation, simply by doing a half-phase shuffle of the VPP
>points? His special effect (shapeshifting his body) will limit it a little
>bit (no raw energy spewing out of his eyes, for example), but it still
>seems like a big advantage over other characters. I'm not arguing,
>though... I'm hoping you'll convince me that it's not too powerful.
>-grin-

It's balanced somewhat by how expensive it is. As I pointed out, the
VPP as I built it costs 110 points, and that allows only one full-level
Power at a time (at 60 Active Points). If you want an 80-point Pool (which
would allow a 60-point attack and still allow 20 points for movement and/or
defenses, or a 50-point attack with 30 points for movement and/or
defenses), that would cost 147 points. That doesn't leave a whole lot for
Characteristics, Skills, and whatnot.
Most likely he'd have a relatively low DEX and SPD, and be fairly weak
in terms of what he could do at any given moment. Just as the price of
immense raw power is a lack of diversity, so the price of immense diversity
is a lack of raw power.
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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:04:11 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
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At 05:48 PM 3/16/1998 -0500, David Majors wrote:
>
>> > Would you allow this stuff in an Elemental Control? My first
>> > instinct was "no", but we tried using a Multipower and it was very
>> > awkward, since several of his powers did not make sense with varying
>> > power levels... Anyway, when I saw that it was going to be very
>> > difficult to create this character with only 250 points, I allowed
>> > him to use an EC just so he'd have enough points to get the basic
>> > concept down (I always think of Multipowers as saving more points,
>> > so I'm always surprised when an EC gives me better savings...maybe
>> > if I spent a few minutes to figure out the math, I wouldn't be
>> > surprised anymore). As it was, we had to dump a lot of cool ideas
>> > because we didn't have the points.
>
>I would skip the EC idea. The EC would encompass too much. A true Q can
>do anything... This power is actually best suited for a variable power
>pool - god like power... He can do anything he wants, just can't do it
>all at the same time.

I think you're thinking of the wrong Q, the one that Theala mentioned
instead of this shapeshifting character.
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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:07:32 -0600
From: Craig Bode <CRAIG@mnhep1.hep.umn.edu>
Subject: RE: Villain escape methods
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For the big slow brick villian who needs to escape, I'd buy him some
tunneling that closes in behind him. That way he could burrow away,
and the rest of the super heros would be unable to follow.

Since the villians usually call the shots (that is decide what
crime to commit and where to commit it) I always have them plan
an escape in advance. Have them rob the armored car on a large
bridge over a river. They then escape by jumping into the river
and swimming into their getaway submarine.

The villians could also use a diversion to get away. Brick villian
pushes the water tower so that it is dangerously leaning over the
day-care center full of kids. The super heros would be too busy
righting the water tower, and evacuating the building to chase after
the slow brick.

If the super heros do exceptionally well, let them capture the villian.
The villian will end up escaping, or maybe he gets off on a legal
technicality. Even if he doesn't escape, the villian's friends could
capture a super hero and arrange for a prisonor exchange. Of course
the villians would make the exchange a trap. Perhaps the exchanged
super hero is actually a robot filled with explosives.

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:25:10 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Villain escape methods
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At 04:45 PM 3/16/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>* Take hostages

This is what VIPER supposedly does. I've always had a hard time
implementing it, though I can always give it another try.

>* Use a "teleporter" that the villain had ready just in case

Ah, yes -- the PSI "Panic Rings," while Pulse of the Corporate Raiders
and Szybko of the Jaws of VOICE simulate quite nicely.

>* The villain just happens to move faster than any hero

I use this rarely.

>However, you can't use a "GM teleport" trick or take hostages all the time
>or the players are going to get tired of it. Let's say that I have a brick
>villain which I want to be a recurring nuisance. The heroes have beaten
>him up pretty bad, and now all he wants to do is get out of there before he
>gets knocked out. He doesn't run that fast, and one of the heroes can fly
>fast enough to catch him if he uses his superleap. There's no reason the
>brick would have a teleport device, unless he was working with someone
>else. At this point, would you give up and let the brick get captured?
>What other methods are there to ensure that your villains aren't captured
>sooner than you want them to be?

He could always dive into the sewer system, and get lost in the maze.
But I'd just let him get caught, then released on some piddling
technicality. If he's clever, he might even have the technicality arranged
for ahead of time (like Diplomatic Immunity or something).
Really, "escape clauses" are there for masterminds and villain groups.
It's the mastermind who has an underground high-speed tunnel crawler whose
passage collapses as soon as he's gone. It's the mastermind who creates
teleport rings, or hires a lackey with a Teleport ability. And so forth.
However, there are three escape possibilities that I know of offhand
other than what you mentioned (and the "create a distraction" technique
that many others have brought up), two of which I've already touched on.
One is to get "lost" in a maze of some sort. The sewers are always a
possibility; the streets of a large city can serve almost as well. In
space, you can always use a handy asteroid belt.
Second is the above-mentioned vehicle. It doesn't have to be a regular
combat vehicle, and in fact probably shouldn't be. The classic form, as
mentioned above, is a personal subway that is very fast, and whose tunnel
collapses as soon as it's on its way (to keep enemies from following).
And then there's always the possibility of ducking around a corner and
assuming a disguise. Shapeshifters are particularly good for this. Red
Dragon of VOICE uses a different take on this, going around a corner and
shedding his costume, which changes his aspect from that of a middle-aged
man to that of a frail young girl -- which is, after all, "his" true state,
physically speaking (the middle-aged man is a disguise).
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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:32:54 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Small campaign
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At 08:37 PM 3/16/1998, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 08:40:13 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> So what does a GM do when the campaign is to be located in New York?
>> In the past, the assumption has been that some excuse will be made for
>>each of the other groups. Just by coincidence, every time the Utlimates
>>try to raid something in New York, the Champions are off saving the world.
>
>And miss out on the fun of two Superhero groups showing up at the same
>time? I've done this with FH characters: a NPC party of considerable
>power 'bumped into' the PCs. They joined forces and the NPCs took the
>opportunity to evaluate the PCs. I used this to later (when the
>combined group were conducting a post mortem) 'advise' the PCs.

I think that sounds like a good plan. :-]
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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:06:18 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Ultimate Super Vehicle
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At 05:01 PM 3/16/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade
>> I sent Bruce the First Draft at the beginning of February, but haven't
>heard back from him. Based on comments I've gotten from Mark Arsenault,
>I'm not going to even start worrying that something got lost until
>mid-April.
> That's why I say I'm crossing my fingers for an autumn release, as
>opposed to it being fairly definite. (Hey, if I had my way it'd be ready
>in August. But this biz being what it is, I won't count on it.)<
>
>Is this going to be a 4E supplement published by Hero themselves? I
>thought they had pretty much given up support of 4E to GRG. Unless this is
>going to be a Hero Plus supplement?

Yeah, Hero Plus
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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:14:38 -0500
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: The Great Multiform Debate
Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
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> > > Simple. It never says it does. So it doesn't.
> >
> > So we're to base what can be done by what the rulesbook DOESN'T say?
Cool!
> >
> > "Gee, the rulesbook doesn't say I CAN'T blast the villains EB with my
own,
> > so I guess I CAN!"
> >
> Certainly when a comment is taken that far out of context it can be
> open to unusual interpretations.
> Why don't you try again, this time by looking at the whole of my
> argument.

You're right, and I apologize. Actually, I had every intention of
responding in depth, but I had to get ready for work in the morning and I
didn't have time for that. Still, I wanted to comment on my initial
reaction, so I sent it off, and in retrospect, I neglected to take into
account how caustic brief, flippant responses can seem... just as a demand
for a more substantive argument might seem awfully holier-than-thou. Now
that I'm home from work, here is the rest of it.

First, to prevent any misquotes, here is the whole of your argument -- I
generally delete every message immediately after I read it but, since I was
planning on responding, I kept this one:

> Simple. It never says it does. So it doesn't. Especially since
> duplication shows how it does for that power.
> Multiform is a power that gives you two seperate bodies. Why should
> hurting one hurt the other.
> Note that duplication only hurts the other forms when they recombine,
> thus adding the injury in from the hurt form.
> Champions III where the powers Duplication and Multiform originate had
> multiform having a rule very similar to duplication. That rule was
removed in
> fourth edition.
> Possibly as a result of character concepts like MiracleMan. Adding it
> back in is simple to do with a limitation.

As I interpret it, your argument has three main points.

> Simple. It never says it does. So it doesn't.

I stand by my initial response on this one -- this is a spurious argument
at best, and my example of the Energy Blast is a legitimate extension of
the same logic.

> Multiform is a power that gives you two seperate bodies. Why
should
> hurting one hurt the other.

As I see it, Multiform is a power that gives you two separate FORMS, not
two separate BODIES. I'm not familiar with Miracleman, having never read
the comic, but the two examples given in the BBB (Capt. Zoology, in the
Multiform description, and Jaguar, in the Sourcebook) seem to imply that
they intended the power to reflect a limited shape shifter or lycanthrope,
neither of which seem to lend themselves to the idea that all damage
disappears when the character changes forms.IOW, why SHOULDN'T hurting one
hurt the other?

> Champions III where the powers Duplication and Multiform
originate had
> multiform having a rule very similar to duplication. That rule
was removed in
> fourth edition.

I >thought< that the Champions III description of Multiform mentioned
carryover, although when the subject came up, I couldn't locate my old copy
of that book, so I wasn't certain. This is, IMO, your strongest argument,
but I still don't buy it.

Just because the explicit reference to it was removed does not necessarily
imply that they intended it to work the way you interpret it. It seems to
me that your interpretation is SUCH a powerful effect (i.e. a half phase
action to change forms, thereby erasing any and all damage taken
previously, at least until you change back to the previous form) that they
would have explicitly >stated< it to be the case if that were their
intention. There are just too many issues that would need to be addressed
in such a case -- they would have to have added at least another paragraph
or two to the description in order to cover it.

I will go so far to state (as I did before) that the interpretation is at
least debatable.

Jeff Reid

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: RE: Secret ID / Public ID
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:48:56 -0500
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> Theala Sildorian [SMTP:theala@shore.intercom.net]
>
> Now the rules states that you can't have both Secret ID and Public
> ID. I disagree with that rule, and in my campaign a character may
> have both if his concept justifies it.

I am divided on this issue, and have been for some time. If the concept
fits, then it should be allowed ... yet, is it really proper to put
Disadvantages on one aspect of a character, that do not affect another
aspect? Or should Disadvantages apply across the board to all aspects?

> I cite Bruce Wayne as an example of a person who has both:
> everyone knows Bruce Wayne, business tycoon, playboy
> philanthropist who lives at Stately Wayne Manor outside of
> Gotham City--but no one knows he is hiding a secret:
> that he rides at night as the mysterious Batman.

An excellent example!! Clearly, Secret ID applies. It would be bad for
Batman if people found out that he was Bruce Wayne ... and what would it do
to Bruce Waynes reputation if people found out that he was Batman?

Now as far was Public ID goes, certainly Bruce Wayne has it, for at least a
limited area ... but does it really apply to Batman? I'm not sure ...
though were he unmasked, it would certainly make it easier for those around
him to recognize, still ... that's why he's getting Disadvantage points for
the Secret ID.

So ... I'm still undecided. I do think that a Disadvantage should apply to
all aspects of a character, but where do you draw the line?

~ Mike

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: RE: Sidekick
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:04:15 -0500
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> A combat manager for Hero System. Great for Champions, not so good
> for Heroic level campaigns.
>
> I prefer Hero Dice and Combat Sequencer--a pair of programs designed
> to work together.

It's actual name is Champions Sidekick. It has/had the potential to be a
great program, but I'm not convinced it was finished. While I like its
concept better than the above two mentioned by Amy, above two are a lot
easier to set up and use.

The biggest quirk I have found with Champions Sidekick is that when I enter
the characters, I find that I have two of each character, which really gums
up the works.

On the other hand, this program has just about every table you might want
to reference just a couple mouse clicks away under the help menu.

At one time, I tried to contact the author to see if I could get the source
code, so I could attempt to improve it make it a little more stable, but I
never got a response.

~ Mike


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@cmi.csc.com>
Subject: Re: huge dudes with capes
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:10:45 CST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> At 05:04 PM 3/16/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
> >Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> >> Don't use just one opponent. Use several.<
> >
> >Ah...so really you have a small stable of "primary" opponents to choose
> >from. That makes a lot more sense to me than having one villain team
> >showing up constantly.
>
> Precisely. :-]

Even better, give the PCs personal reasons to dislike the members
of that stable...

And of course, the obligatory "we must work together even though we hate
each other" plot...

Ok, so I'm not a nice guy :)


DonM.
--
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
==========================================================================

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: RE: The Great Multiform Debate
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:16:15 -0500
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Most people I know play multiform such that 100% of the damage carries over
from one form to another. That is, if MegaForm takes 21 BODY (he has 30),
and then shifts into WimpyForm (10 BODY), he dies! No other
interpretation! End of story!

I have never like this approach.

However, the rules are very unclear on this, and I don't believe that any
conclusions can be drawn from their omission.

So, I play multiform in two ways, depending on the Special Effect for the
Power.

If shifting forms represents the same character in different forms, then I
carry over damage (and STUN and some Drains) as a percentage, so in my
above example, Wimpy form would be down 7 BODY.

If shifting forms represents different bodies that somehow change places,
then _no_ damage transferees between forms ... but _only_ the current form
gets recoveries and healing. When shifting back, the form is in the exact
same shape (STUN, BODY and most Drains) he was in when the previous shift
was made. The unfortunate (?) side effect of this is that if a character
is dying, and shifts form, the dying form kind of goes into stasis, and can
be saved at a later time.

~ Mike

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:17:18 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Segment 12
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> > Nah. This is easy. She is holding an action until a villian
> >starts to attack. At that point it will be a Dex vs Dex roll to see who
> >goes first: Her, or the attacking villian.
>
> Perhaps a PER roll might be preferable - she's got to see the attack
> coming.

While there could be arguments for this, according to Champs these
actions would be a simple DEX vs DEX, if extrapolated from the held action
rules.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:22:49 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
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> Then have the character buy two seperate Martial Arts Styles, one
> for the armed combat, one for the unarmed.
> After all, letting a player use the same manuever for fencing and
> for Wing Chun Kung Fu is something most reasonability checks will alarm on.

Why? What is the point to paying twice for the same thing? Just
grab the appropriate Weapon Elements and make sure to have KSs for each
style.

> A person who knows one set of manuevers unarmed, and whole other set
> armed; really knows two seperate martial styles.

Maybe. Some MAs have maneuvers that, while visually similar
because of Foci or whatever, are mechanically the same. Why buy them
twice?


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:33:58 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Disadvantages
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> think about the history and personality. The one area where they have no
> trouble getting disads is the psych lims... I constantly have to remind
> them that you can only have 50 points worth of any one disad type. They
> have trouble with the other areas, though, because they generally want zero
> or one of a type of disadvantage, and end up taking more than they want
> just so they can get to 150 points.

So don't enforce arbitrary guidelines. If more disads in an area
are called for, then allow more than 150.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:58:47 -0500
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Martial Artist: no diversity?
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> I asked this question earlier, but we got sidetracked on other issues and
> no one ever answered the main question. I'll try again, without all the
> extra baggage:
>
> One of my players created a character who has 5 or 6 martial maneuvers,
> most of them only usable with a staff. He also has a damage shield, and
he
> is able to extend this damage shield so that it covers whatever weapon he
> is holding. Essentially, that's the entire character (without mentioning
> the skills). Oh, he also has Multiform into a 100-point normal (the
normal
> is possessed by the spirit of this martial artist). Anyway, if you take
> his staff away, the character essentially has only a few defensive
martial
> maneuvers and his damage shield. It's a 250 point character, so my
thought
> is that he should be able to do a lot more than what I've listed.

The skills can be kind of an important detail to omit, especially for a
Martial Artist. Are you asking if the character is diverse enough from a
combat standpoint, or from a campaign standpoint?

Jeff Reid

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:58:51 -0500
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Disadvantages
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> Does anyone else have trouble getting 150 points worth of disadvantages
for
> their 250-point heroes? Our group has always struggled with this...they
> make a pass through the Disads section and get the ones which make sense,
> and then they have to go back through and make other passes where they
> struggle to think up other disads that the character might have. I
haven't
> had as much a problem with it as my players, but we all have trouble
> getting to the 150-point mark. I'm just wondering if other groups whiz
> through this section because they have a deeper character concept going
> into Disads, or if it's a struggle for everyone. I should have prefaced
> this by saying that we usually do Disads first, then characteristics, and
> finally powers (which usually forces us to go back and lower
> characteristics). Perhaps if we saved Disads until later, it would be
less
> of a struggle.

It's usuallt a hit-or-miss with me. Sometimes I can't come up with them to
save my life, other times there are so many that make so much sense, I have
a hard time deciding what NOT to include.

I remember back in the earlier editions, when Hunteds were worth a LOT more
points (Viper or Genocide netted you 30 points for an 8-, as opposed to
about 15 now), all it took was a couple of those, and the rest was gravy.

Jeff Reid

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:58:54 -0500
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Modifiers to Characteristics
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> > This seems like a simple question, but I had a hard time finding an
answer
> > yesterday when flipping through the BBB and Classic Enemies for
examples.
> > How much would it cost to put AE:Hex on your STR? The character in
> > question had a 30 STR, and AE:Hex is a 1/2 advantage, so using the
chart it
> > shows that this "power" costs 45 points. Does that mean that to buy
the
> > AE:Hex would cost 45 (total) -30 (STR cost) =15 points?

> > This was for our
> > shapeshifter character, who wanted to be able to make his fist huge so
he
> > could punch several targets at the same time (we probably would have
made
> > it more than just a hex). If you know of other ways to do this besides
> > AE:Hex (the character also had Stretching, by the way), please let me
know.

Just as a personal preference, I avoid like the plague placing advantages
on STR (except for Reduced END). I suppose it's legal, and it's certainly
popular (especially Armor Piercing), but it just gives me a headache. Also,
if you put advantages on your STR, you have to pay the END cost for them,
even if you don't want to use them (like to lift an object, where AP on STR
isn't helping one bit).

Another thing to consider -- in general, you can't turn off advantages on a
power. IOW, if you have an Area Effect Energy Blast, you can't use it as a
single target blast. There's no reason to think that wouldn't apply to STR,
so if you made your STR area effect, then technically you would always have
to use it for at least one hex!. I suppose it's possible to avoid this by
placing the Advantage in a multipower, but isn't there a rule somewhere
against placing "naked" advantages in a Framework?

As an alternative, consider buying a Hand Attack with whatever advantage
you want to apply to your STR. For instance: your character has a 30 STR,
and you want to be able to do an area effect attack with it. Buy 2d6 HA,
AE: 1 hex. The 30 STR adds to this, but is modified by the advantage
(+1/2), thereby adding +4d6. The grand total: 6d6 damage, AE: 1 hex, for an
active point total of 9 pts. This would certainly reflect the giant fist
attack you mentioned.

Of course, this only allows damage (not grabbing or throwing), but there's
always TK...

Jeff Reid

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:58:58 -0500
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: RE: Sidekick
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> A combat manager for Hero System. Great for Champions, not so good
> for Heroic level campaigns.
>
> I prefer Hero Dice and Combat Sequencer--a pair of programs designed
> to work together.
>

I fugured it was something of the sort. I have Hero Dice, but not Combat
Sequencer - never heard of that one, actually. I'll have to keep an eye out
for it, if it's still available.

Jeff Reid

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:40:12 -0600
From: A Kirkland <ajk117@mail.usask.ca>
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
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At 18:15 98/03/16 +0000, Theala Sildorian wrote:
>
>Public ID means that everyone knows who the person is, and generally
>where they can be found (ie, everyone knows where stately Wayne Manor
>is).
>
>If the character has neither Disad, then it is assumed that the
>character may not be advertising the fact he is a superhero, but that
>he doesn't hide it either. It also means that, unless the character
>has a Rep, that no one will instantly recognize his name either.
>
>Now the rules states that you can't have both Secret ID and Public
>ID. I disagree with that rule, and in my campaign a character may
>have both if his concept justifies it. I cite Bruce Wayne as an
>example of a person who has both: everyone knows Bruce Wayne,
>business tycoon, playboy philanthropist who lives at Stately Wayne
>Manor outside of Gotham City--but no one knows he is hiding a secret:
> that he rides at night as the mysterious Batman.
>
>Amy
>
>----------------
>Theala Sildorian
>http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
>Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!
>


I'd have to disagree. Bruce Wayne / Batman is a master of disguise;
if he wanted to disappear, he could. with a Public ID, you can't.
A Kirkland

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: traveler owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:41:16 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Modifiers to Characteristics
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On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Jeff M. Reid wrote:

> Just as a personal preference, I avoid like the plague placing
> advantages on STR (except for Reduced END). I suppose it's legal, and
> it's certainly popular (especially Armor Piercing), but it just gives me
> a headache. Also, if you put advantages on your STR, you have to pay
> the END cost for them, even if you don't want to use them (like to lift
> an object, where AP on STR isn't helping one bit).

Here, here! OTOH, I am of the opinion that many of the Advantages should
not contribute to END cost; but that's another thread entirely...

> Another thing to consider -- in general, you can't turn off advantages
> on a power. IOW, if you have an Area Effect Energy Blast, you can't use
> it as a single target blast. There's no reason to think that wouldn't
> apply to STR, so if you made your STR area effect, then technically you
> would always have to use it for at least one hex!. I suppose it's
> possible to avoid this by placing the Advantage in a multipower, but
> isn't there a rule somewhere against placing "naked" advantages in a
> Framework?

In this snese, I like the approach GURPS uses with its Enhancements;
unless you specify otherwise, the Enhancement _can_ be switched off. Oh
well...

Maybe you could introduce a +1/4 "Partial Advantage", which can only be
applied to another Advantage: Can be Turned Off... (So 4D6 EB, Armor
Piercing (Can Be Turned Off) would cost 20 pts for the EB, 1/2 x 20 = 10
pts for the AP, and 1/4 x 10 = 2 pts for "Can Be Turned Off"...

> As an alternative, consider buying a Hand Attack with whatever advantage
> you want to apply to your STR. For instance: your character has a 30
> STR, and you want to be able to do an area effect attack with it. Buy
> 2d6 HA, AE: 1 hex. The 30 STR adds to this, but is modified by the
> advantage (+1/2), thereby adding +4d6. The grand total: 6d6 damage, AE:
> 1 hex, for an active point total of 9 pts. This would certainly reflect
> the giant fist attack you mentioned.

Fine, except for how easy it is to abuse: for 4 points, you can do (STR/5
+ 1)D6 of Armor-Piercing Damage...

> Of course, this only allows damage (not grabbing or throwing), but there's
> always TK...

...which is (sort of) STR, +1/2 A (Ranged)... ;)

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
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Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:09:15 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Sidekick
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At 10:58 PM 3/16/1998 -0500, Jeff M. Reid wrote:
>> A combat manager for Hero System. Great for Champions, not so good
>> for Heroic level campaigns.
>>
>> I prefer Hero Dice and Combat Sequencer--a pair of programs designed
>> to work together.
>>
>
>I fugured it was something of the sort. I have Hero Dice, but not Combat
>Sequencer - never heard of that one, actually. I'll have to keep an eye out
>for it, if it's still available.

You can find copies of it on both my own website, and Theala's.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:46:04 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Disadvantages
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> Does anyone else have trouble getting 150 points worth of disadvantages for
> their 250-point heroes?

Yes.
It's for this that I removed any point limits whatsoever, and stated
that:
A) disads + base = total
B) base = Total - Disads
C) Disads = Total - Base.

Then proceeded to refuse to answer what any of those three numbers
needed to
be but rather said get disads until your concept is done, the rest is
base. I'll look
at it and determine together with you if it's enough or to much or just
right.

As for power levels, I just gave advice on what averages I wanted.

But going back to disads...

I think 150 points worth stretches about 50% of all concepts past the
point of making sense. I can't stand to see hunted or vulns that make
little
sense. Or see the whole group of players with the same three psych lims
repeated.


> I should have prefaced
> this by saying that we usually do Disads first, then characteristics, and
> finally powers (which usually forces us to go back and lower
> characteristics). Perhaps if we saved Disads until later, it would be less
> of a struggle.

You know; I have no idea in what order each of my players approaches
character design.
I tend to throw out lots of genre info, then tell them to email me
something in the next
week, then look it over and email back.

--
Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role
Playing

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 23:26:17 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: The Great Multiform Debate
Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
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> As I see it, Multiform is a power that gives you two separate FORMS, not
> two separate BODIES. I'm not familiar with Miracleman, having never read
> the comic, but the two examples given in the BBB (Capt. Zoology, in the
> Multiform description, and Jaguar, in the Sourcebook) seem to imply that
> they intended the power to reflect a limited shape shifter or lycanthrope,
> neither of which seem to lend themselves to the idea that all damage
> disappears when the character changes forms.IOW, why SHOULDN'T hurting one
> hurt the other?
> > Champions III where the powers Duplication and Multiform originate had
> > multiform having a rule very similar to duplication. That rule was removed in
> > fourth edition.
>

>
> I will go so far to state (as I did before) that the interpretation is at
> least debatable.

This I would agree on.


The problem here is that there are two equally valid and genre
supported
special effects here.

1) the ultra-shapeshifter/mindshifter
2) The two for one body special

In the first, not having damage carryover seems absurd. However in the
second
having it also seems absurd.

Since Hero as yet lacks an "Advantaged Advantage", it's easier to make
the
base version of the power the more potent one (number 2), and use a
limitation to
achieve the second. If the game had "Advantaged Advantage", or some
specific modifier
to Multiform; I'd prefer the base version being the first option myself.

But at present if you make it the first option; then you have just
created an
effect which is impossible to duplicate in Hero, that of the second
option.

--
Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role
Playing

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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 23:30:29 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
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> > I cite Bruce Wayne as an example of a person who has both:
> > everyone knows Bruce Wayne, business tycoon, playboy
> > philanthropist who lives at Stately Wayne Manor outside of
> > Gotham City--but no one knows he is hiding a secret:
> > that he rides at night as the mysterious Batman.
>
> An excellent example!! Clearly, Secret ID applies. It would be bad for
> Batman if people found out that he was Bruce Wayne ... and what would it do
> to Bruce Waynes reputation if people found out that he was Batman?
>
> Now as far was Public ID goes, certainly Bruce Wayne has it, for at least a
> limited area ... but does it really apply to Batman? I'm not sure ...
> though were he unmasked, it would certainly make it easier for those around
> him to recognize, still ... that's why he's getting Disadvantage points for
> the Secret ID.

Logic here seems to indicate that Reputation should be expanded to
include an automatic version, as well as conditional versions. Such that
it
encompasses Public ID.
Likewise Secret ID should be expanded to include various forms of
secrets
of varying importance and scope; thus becomes not just what it is now,
but a meta
Secret.

--
Rook
__
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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:34:47 +0000
From: Chris Brecken <Christopher.Brecken@sunderland.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Disadvantages
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Sakura wrote:

> On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:
>

**** Deleted for bandwidth purposes ****

> > I should have prefaced
> > this by saying that we usually do Disads first, then characteristics, and
> > finally powers (which usually forces us to go back and lower
> > characteristics). Perhaps if we saved Disads until later, it would be less
> > of a struggle.
>



> Not really - I generally do disads last or close to last, and I have just
> as much trouble - especially since a lot of my character concepts preclude
> some major categories of disadvantages. (I don't generally have concepts
> that lend themselves to vulnerabilities or susceptibilities, for instance)
> And one can only take so many Enemies and PsychLims...
>

I always do my disads last, and character balancing after that.

> Generally, I think that the ratio is way off for base points/points from
> disads. I frequently reverse it (150 base, 100 from disads) or give even
> more base points - I want the players taking the disads that they feel are
> right for the character, rather than cramming more of them in to get
> enough points to be competetive.
>
>

I tend to agree, but i approach it from a different angle. I don't put a limit on
disads, but do rigisly enforce them and make sure every disad really is a disad.

> J
>
> "One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
> To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

Chris Brecken



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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:23:49 +0000
From: Chris Brecken <Christopher.Brecken@sunderland.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Only in Hero ID
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Chris Brecken wrote:

> Jeff M. Reid wrote:
>
> > > One of the key diferences in the two is damage carryover. In OIHID
> > > damage to one persona is damage to the other.
> > > In multiform, short of death, damage to one form has no effect on the
> > > other (unlike duplication).
> >
> > What gives you that impression? My initial reaction was that you were nuts,
> > but I decided to check the rules just to be sure. Interestingly enough, the
> > Multiform listing in the Hero Rulesbook doesn't mention damage carryover
> > one way or the other, so I suppose that there's room for debate. I would
> > like to hear what others have to say on the subject before I can accept
> > what seems to me to be a counterintuitive rules interpretation.
> >
> > Jeff Reid
>



> I'v always read Multiform as having no damage carryover. But if that form
> dies, you have lost it, and if it is the base form, well need i say more....
> Anyway, a thing to remember is that when a form is not active, it cannot heal,
> This can cause a few problems.



> Chris Brecken




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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:13:06 -0500
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Modifiers to Characteristics
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> Referencing the first half of this paragraph. The BBB states that
you do
> not need to use a power at full strength.

True, but you >do< have to use the power in the same proportion, regardless
of how much of it you use.

> While this is most commonly assumed
> (and applied) to reduce the amount of dice thrown in an attack, what if
it is
> applied to the size of an area effect, or reduce or negate what senses
are
> affected? For instance, darkness affects a certain number of senses
which are
> brought as extra, +5 per sense, +10 per group. If I reduce the size of
the power
> by +10 to remove an entire sense group, is it legal? Also, if I reduce
the
> amount of dice thrown in an area effect, does the area get smaller?

Whoa. Good point. There was a ruling somewhere, although I >think< it was
for 3rd edition, that said that if you had an Area Effect Attack, you could
vary the size of the area as well as the damage. FI, if you had a 6d6, 3"
Radius EB, you could do 6d6 to an area as small as 1" (but no smaller), or
you could do 1d6 to the full 3" radius. Again, I can't remember where this
was written (I'll try to track it down if necessary), but I remember it
clearly.

OTOH, I'm not really sure how any of this applies to powers like Darkness,
which have "add-ons." I've always assumed that you could lessen the
intensity of your Darkness (from Full Sight Group down to just normal
sight, FI), but now I'm leaning the other way. I would certainly raise an
eyebrow if a player wanted to use his Sight+Hearing Darkness vs >just<
sight or >just< hearing. I'm going to have to give this some more thought
(and read the responses of others here) before I decide.

> Please, these are honest questions. I would like considered
replies, not
> bold statements to pull my head in.

You shouldn't even have to ask.

Jeff Reid

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:13:07 -0500
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: The Great Multiform Debate Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
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> But at present if you make it the first option; then you have just
> created an
> effect which is impossible to duplicate in Hero, that of the second
> option.

Well, it certainly wouldn't be the first such effect :-).

Jeff Reid

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:13:12 -0500
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Modifiers to Characteristics
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> > As an alternative, consider buying a Hand Attack with whatever
advantage
> > you want to apply to your STR. For instance: your character has a 30
> > STR, and you want to be able to do an area effect attack with it. Buy
> > 2d6 HA, AE: 1 hex. The 30 STR adds to this, but is modified by the
> > advantage (+1/2), thereby adding +4d6. The grand total: 6d6 damage, AE:
> > 1 hex, for an active point total of 9 pts. This would certainly reflect
> > the giant fist attack you mentioned.
>
> Fine, except for how easy it is to abuse: for 4 points, you can do (STR/5
> + 1)D6 of Armor-Piercing Damage...

Actually, w/ the minimum cost of HA being 6 pts, w/ the +1/2 making it 9
pts, the final formula being (STR/7.5)+2d6 Armor Piercing damage for 9 pts,
but I agree with the basic premise. That's more an argument against the
cost of HA than anything else, though. I address that in my game with a
couple of home rules which I won't go into right now.

Jeff Reid

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:19:52 -0600
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Why not official answers
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At 05:14 PM 3/17/98 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
> I challenge you to put your proverbial money where your proverbial mouth
> is, then. ;) San Angelo: City of Heroes is the biggest 4th Ed Champions
> product to be released in the better part of two years. There is a free
> download of the first two chapters; there is an interview with me coming
> up in the next Herozine; we've released some of the interior artwork (on
> Theala's site, to Herozine, on our web page, etc.), and both the publisher
> (me) and the author (Pat) are on this list.

You forgot to mention that it has the semi-official Kurt Busiek stamp of
approval. :]

> Well, in fairness, Hero is trying to address many of the unclear rules
> with 5th Ed. That is where most of the work lies, IMO. Keep in mind that
> many powers won't change dramatically (if at all), but they will be
> written more concisely, lowering the amount of debate.

Oh, it won't lower the amount of debate, just the focus of it. :] :] :]

> E.g., What exactly is line of sight? Exactly what it says. It refers to
> a *physical* line of sight, and does not include Clairsentience, Mind
> Link, Mind Scan or Telepathy. In my games, however, I allow LOS to
> include most of those things because I feel they are keeping with the
> spirit of Mentalists and Mental Powers.

> Would I suggest that they rewrite the rules to reflect my opinion? No.
> Hero defined LOS in print and that is the "official" ruling, though I am
> free to change it in my game if I so choose (and I do).

Well, to begin with, Mind Scan at EGO+10 makes LOS obsolete. :] But,
seriously, I'm not sure this is such a great example, insofar as it's a good
candidate for the Master Ambiguity List. To illustrate:

Where exactly *did* they define it in print? The only reference I could find
is in reference to Mental Powers, p. 117: "However, Mental Combat works on a
line-of-sight basis; if an attacker can see the target, he can affect him
with no Range Modifier". If this is the definition, it has the following
consequences:
a) Clairsentience, bought for Sight Group, DOES affect LOS. After
all, it is an extension of your natural, physical Sight. You can
see the target, thus you can hit him.

At least one wierd effect this creates ... Buy Mind Scan and Mind
Control with the Transdimensional advantage to affect any
dimension. We know that, according to the XDM power, time/dates
are a dimension. Add Retrocognition (Sight), and you can rewrite
history! (Use Retrocognition to establish line of sight on JFK in
Dallas, and Mind Control him into demanding the bulletproof
bubbletop, for example).

b) Taken literally, you CAN'T use other Targeting Senses to target
Mental Powers! Take as a hypothetical case the superhero
Krishna-Man, who has a boatload of mental powers defined as "being
one with the universe", including Spatial Awareness. Krishna Man
fights the Fog of War, who shrouds himself in his patented
Darkness vs. Sight (Personal Immunity). Now, Krishna-Man knows
EXACTLY where he is, and can hit him with a .44 Magnum if he had
one, but not with his Arrows of Pure Thought (Ego Attack).

Somehow, I think this was an oversight of the guy writing the rules, that
the intention was that "sight" can be swapped out for any other targeting
sense, but ... like I said, it belongs on the Master Ambiguity List.

Incidentally, this also means that a suggested construction in =The Ultimate
Mentalist= for "Invisibility, Can Still Be Seen" to avoid mentalist LOS just
doesn't work, since "mentalist LOS" is explicitly defined in print (p. 117)
as 'if you can be seen, you can be hit'. :]

--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:19:55 -0600
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Why no official answers
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At 05:35 PM 3/17/98 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
> And...? House rules are just that. Having a published or "official"
> answer does not make house rules any less viable, original, entertaining
> or "valid." I completely diagree that Hero Games should be "guiding" any
> house rules at all. Now, if you wanted them here to comment on published
> rules and their intent (which is what I think you meant), then that's
> fine. But as a player, I couldn't take any publisher seriously who tried
> to tell me what I could and could not do with house rules. ;)

I think the general feeling is that whether or not one intends to use house
rules, there needs to be a ground floor shared by all, a default solution to
any question. Campaigns interact -- slowly and sporadically true, but it
happens, whether from players moving to new cities and joining new games, or
from convention events where the GM is a stranger, etc. I don't mind anyone
using house rules, but one needs to be able to present your house rules up
front before play begins. One needs to know whether it IS a house rule or a
Hoyle rule, and for much the same reason as for poker: to prevent arguments
before they ever start. In the Old West, people got shot for rules
arguments. If there was money on the line in HERO, I'd expect the same
result. :]

--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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From: "Salmon, David W" <dsalmon@crt.xerox.com>
Subject: Secret ID/Public ID related question
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 05:20:24 PST
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Hey Psych Lim fans ...

I ran into an interesting situation designing a character that I need
some help with. The character in question has to hide his real identity
for reason "X" so he set himself up a new name with a new SSN and
everything. Now this character also is a superhero who wants to keep his
superheroic identity secret. What kind of psych lim's would you give
him?? Two Secret ID's ??? Is that legal ??


...Dave S.

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From: "Bill Beane" <concord-tech@att.net>
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:37:35 -0500
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> Theala Sildorian [SMTP:theala@shore.intercom.net]
>
> Now the rules states that you can't have both Secret ID and Public
> ID. I disagree with that rule, and in my campaign a character may
> have both if his concept justifies it.
>
> I cite Bruce Wayne as an example of a person who has both:
> everyone knows Bruce Wayne, business tycoon, playboy
> philanthropist who lives at Stately Wayne Manor outside of
> Gotham City--but no one knows he is hiding a secret:
> that he rides at night as the mysterious Batman.

In our campaigns, we allow a modified Reputation to cover such a situation.

Bruce Wayne would have a Secret Identity: Batman and a Reputation:
Millionaire Business Tycoon, Philanthropist and Playboy.

With such a Reputation almost everything that Wayne does would be covered
by the media. He would constantly be the target of charitable
organizations seeking his sponsorship of their events or donations. He
might even be the target of a woman intent upon marrying into money. The
worst thing would be that he could become a target of criminals, kidnapping
or robbing Stately Wayne Manor.

Even though it does not apply to his crimefighting alter ego, it would
certainly be a great disadvantage for a gamemaster to have hanging over a
player. The plot lines and role playing opportunities certainly justify
the points given for the disadvantage.

Just some thoughts.....


Bill

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:46:00 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Reply-To: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Why not official answers?
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Seeing some of the rules questions and disputes that have been going on on
this list for many years, I bring myself to ask:

Why doesn't HERO Games give us the official answers to these questions?
Why let us, and the rules, languish in hazy imperspicuity? HERO has a
presence on this list, but the answers are not forthcoming. Does anyone
know why?

And even then, why not compile all our rules questions and send them to
HERO to get the answers? It's one thing to debate over what mechanics are
best, how to build characters, and which house rules make sense--quite
another to engage in the literary exercise of deciphering the rulebook and
taking interpretive sides over something that probably should not be
treated (or written) like a crude old text of Linear A.

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 06:49:02 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: Countering increased drain times
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At 09:59 PM 3/17/1998 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
>Effects of drain and transfer normally return at 5 points per
>turn. This can be moved down the time chart one level for each +1/4
>advantage.
>
> I was thinking about a character who recovers from adverse
>effects very quickly to the extent that within a few seconds he would be
>just about as good as new. Obviously, a high recovery would be part of
>it but the effects of drains and transfers can make it harder to be able
>to be a dynamic sponge. Power and ego defence dont go far enough for the
>effet that I am after.
>
> Some of the thoughts that I had included bastardised versions of
>multiform or duplication but the recent discussions on this site seem to
>indicate that many people believe that damage transfers. Oh, well.
>
> So I am left with either a triggered aid and/or some sort of
>"power" that will counter the effects of increased time. The problem
>with trigger is that it is a one shot effect and needs to be reset after
>being tripped which can make the entire concept a bit jagged.
>
> Any comments? Be aware it is only a thought exercise and more
>than likely will not end up as a PC but as part of a villian group.

What you have here is a very salient point.
My suggestion for dealing with this would be to allow a variant form of
Regeneration (yes, a "house rule"), which will affect anything affected by
an Adjustment Power but not normal injuries and such. For the moment,
let's call this a +0 Modifier, figuring the two considerations balance each
other out.
Thus, at the base level of 10 points, the character will Regenerate 4
character points per Turn.
Of course, if we want to figure that regenerating any Character Points
lost to Adjustment Powers is slightly less advantageous than regenerating
BODY lost to any source (which I do), and at the same time bring the value
in line with the normal return rate for Adjustment Powers, we can call it 5
character points per Turn for 10 points. That would come to 1 character
point per Turn for 2 points.
As with regular Regeneration, the rate can be bought down for a -1/4
Limitation per step down the Time Chart.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 06:57:15 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: Secret ID/Public ID related question
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At 05:20 AM 3/17/1998 PST, Salmon, David W wrote:
>Hey Psych Lim fans ...
>
>I ran into an interesting situation designing a character that I need
>some help with. The character in question has to hide his real identity
>for reason "X" so he set himself up a new name with a new SSN and
>everything. Now this character also is a superhero who wants to keep his
>superheroic identity secret. What kind of psych lim's would you give
>him?? Two Secret ID's ??? Is that legal ??

It's not technically legal under the 4th Edition Rules (just *try* to
get HeroMaker to do that!), but I'd allow it anyway. That's essentially
what's going on.
I'd also allow two Secret Identities for the rewritten Solitaire (the
Ultimate Mentalist version), and possibly even three.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 06:59:16 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
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At 07:23 PM 3/17/1998 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
>David Stallard wrote:
>> Message text written by Brian Wong
>> > You're more than likely going to need something with the word
>> 'variable' in it. That is VPP, Variable Advantage, and or Variable Special
>> Effects.<
>>
>> I didn't consider VPP because it doesn't make sense for this character to
>> have a few powers "readied" and have to take time to reshuffle points in
>> order to get effects. If he wants to fly, he just sprouts wings out of his
>> back...he doesn't need to have flight "on deck" ready for use. We used
>> Variable Special Effects in several places, though.
>
> +1 advantage to your power pool allows you to take no time to change the
>pool. Make it about 50 points with a couple of disadvantages thrown in to
allow
>enough points to have several powers to be used at once, and Bob's your
uncle.

Huh? Did my brother have yet another kid that I don't know about? ;-]
Seriously, this is about the way to do it. I'd personally make the Pool
a tad larger, but that's just my own mind.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:02:56 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: The Great Multiform Debate
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At 11:26 PM 3/16/1998 -0800, Rook wrote:
> The problem here is that there are two equally valid and genre supported
>special effects here.
>
>1) the ultra-shapeshifter/mindshifter
>2) The two for one body special
>
>In the first, not having damage carryover seems absurd. However in the second
>having it also seems absurd.
>
> Since Hero as yet lacks an "Advantaged Advantage", it's easier to make the
>base version of the power the more potent one (number 2), and use a
limitation to
>achieve the second. If the game had "Advantaged Advantage", or some specific
>modifier to Multiform; I'd prefer the base version being the first option
myself.
>
> But at present if you make it the first option; then you have just
created an
>effect which is impossible to duplicate in Hero, that of the second option.

OK, I'm convinced. You've won me over, Rook.
Of course, now I have to put text in TUSV about this part of the
rules....
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:11:06 -0500
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@Concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Why not official answers?
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At 08:46 AM 3/17/98 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>Seeing some of the rules questions and disputes that have been going on on
>this list for many years, I bring myself to ask:
>
>Why doesn't HERO Games give us the official answers to these questions?
>Why let us, and the rules, languish in hazy imperspicuity?


More fun this way. :)

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:12:55 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Disadvantages
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On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Donald Tsang wrote:

> >Does anyone else have trouble getting 150 points worth of disadvantages for
> >their 250-point heroes? Our group has always struggled with this...they
> >make a pass through the Disads section and get the ones which make sense,
> >and then they have to go back through and make other passes where they
> >struggle to think up other disads that the character might have.
>
> I had the same problem, so in the games I run, I usually give 150+disads
> for a 250-275 point game.
>
> Reminds me of a GURPS game I once played, where we got 100 pts base,
> so I built a character on 105 pts (five quirks). The GM just couldn't
> handle it ("but... but..."), so finally he forced me to take some sort
> of Social Stigma (for the character being female), and spend the points.
> That was kinda funny.

That's funny. Since everyone is telling their own approach to disads,
here's mine: I require 10 points of disadvantages, and impose no maximum.
However, I don't use the HERO disad rules, but the (in my opinion)
superior system presented in Fuzion. The points are much less inflated,
and every disadvantage really means something.

I also suggest or approve disadvantages to be added later on, especially
"psych lims." Often, not until a character is played for a few sessions do
we really get a feel for the character's psychology, or perhaps even the
nature of his interaction with the game world. But if a character is
role-playing a psychlim that's not on the sheet, I'll award the points;
it's almost like a reward for role-playing. Although, on some occasions,
it means supplanting another psych-lim that's *not* being played... but
this is natural.

Now and then I have "disadvantage audits" to see just where everyone
stands with respect to their disadvantages. Some players get warnings,
some get disadvantages switched, and some get more points! This practice
isn't really intrusive, but knowing it exists keeps the players regulating
their own disadvantages.

On the other hand, a GMing tip: never let the disadvantage sheet interfere
in any way with good role-playing. The former should facilitate the
latter, not vice-versa.

If a character is having trouble role-playing a particular disadvantage,
or isn't having fun with it, work with the player and suggest alternatives
based on the role-playing you do observe. Never force a disadvantage down
a character's throat; you might point out a transgression of a stated
disadvantage, but in most cases allow the player to make his own
judgments.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:18:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Why not official answers?
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On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:

> Why doesn't HERO Games give us the official answers to these questions?
> Why let us, and the rules, languish in hazy imperspicuity? HERO has a
> presence on this list, but the answers are not forthcoming. Does anyone
> know why?

Hero is not really on this list. They are on the AOL folder, but seem to
ignore this list except to make announcements.

> And even then, why not compile all our rules questions and send them to
> HERO to get the answers? It's one thing to debate over what mechanics are
> best, how to build characters, and which house rules make sense--quite
> another to engage in the literary exercise of deciphering the rulebook and
> taking interpretive sides over something that probably should not be
> treated (or written) like a crude old text of Linear A.

Hero is noted for being vauge about certain ruleings, the Linked debate
among them. They also seem less than willing to come out with offical
rulings, prefering to let individual GM decide what is best. Now, 5th
Edition is *supposed* to fix a number of these vague rule wordings, and
Steve Long *is* on this list. I am willing to bet that he would be more
than happy to listen to any question you might have and accept any list of
rules you think need to be clarified.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: EC and VPP
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:23:07 -0800
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Dataweaver proposes:
>Elemental Power Pool
>This is actually a combination of a Variable Power Pool and an
>Elemental Control; ... The associated skill represents your ability
>to improvise powers on the fly, while the Elemental Control
>represents those effects that you've already mastered...

That's an interesting idea -- making ECs more amenable to small
miscellaneous powers.

I often put in a small Variable Advantage EB and a Change Environment
into an EC along with the normal powers to represent someone who's very
skilled in various power tricks, but I've often wished there was a
Miscellaneous Power that could go in. It would be great if VPP had a
standard power counterpart that could fit into frameworks.

Dave Mattingly
http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1905/pwrpnt.html

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:23:27 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Rick Holding
> I fail to see where most of his points seem to have gone. He is
250?
30 points on martial arts, 80 (90?) points on the damage shields? (If that

much has been spent, hit him across the back of the head)<

I was wondering the same thing...tonight I will look at the character
sheet. I know that the 2nd damage shield was fairly expensive because of
UAO...I've decided to just drop that and say that his normal damage shield
automatically covers a handheld weapon, so that will free up a lot of
points. Still, I'm having trouble remembering how he managed to spend 250
points and have too few options. I don't remember his characteristics
being extremely high....

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:23:27 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Martial Artist: no diversity?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by "Jeff M. Reid"
>The skills can be kind of an important detail to omit, especially for a
Martial Artist. Are you asking if the character is diverse enough from a
combat standpoint, or from a campaign standpoint?<

I was thinking from the combat standpoint. Actually, I'm impressed at both
of my players this time around, because they didn't skimp on the skills
like they normally do. However, I don't think this martial artist player
is going to be happy in combat, because he just doesn't have many
choices...especially if his staff gets taken away (and what kind of GM
would I be if I didn't snatch it away from time to time?). Take away the
staff, and all he has are a couple defensive maneuvers and his damage
shield.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:23:28 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Multiform in 5th Edition
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Michael Sprague
>Most people I know play multiform such that 100% of the damage carries
over
from one form to another. That is, if MegaForm takes 21 BODY (he has 30),
and then shifts into WimpyForm (10 BODY), he dies! No other
interpretation! End of story!<

If anybody hasn't filled out their 5th Edition questionnaires yet, this
sounds like something to list as needing clarification!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:23:29 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> I think you're thinking of the wrong Q, the one that Theala mentioned
instead of this shapeshifting character.<

Hehe... I should have known that character's name would cause some
confusion. Oh, how I wish that player would pick a name that at least made
a little sense with his shapeshifting powers!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:23:30 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Martial Artist: no diversity?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> Yes, he ought to be able to. If nothing else, he should be proficient
in the Normal's profession. The language of the original Martial Artist
and some cultural knowledge would be a good idea too.<

Surprisingly enough, this martial artist has all of that (the Normal is a
history professor specializing in Asian studies). I say surprising because
usually these players buy the bare minimum in skills (just enough to get me
off their backs), and everything else is combat-oriented. However, with
this character, I don't think he has enough combat-oriented options to keep
the player happy (I don't think the player realizes this yet). Some of the
other problems with this character that we will be fixing (the 2nd damage
shield) will free up a significant amount of points, so hopefully he'll be
able to diversify the character a bit more.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:23:31 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> To that first question... yes, there should be a name and a unifying
theme to the art. There should -- nay *must* -- be a unifying theme to the
maneuvers, some reason that these maneuvers are together.
Have him write out a background for his Martial Art. It should be at
least as detailed as the write-ups in Ninja Hero, and should explain why it
developed the way it did. Have him give each maneuver a name other than
the name from the Martial Art Maneuvers List -- something that can indicate
whether a blow is done high, low, through the middle, etc. ("Martial
Strike" isn't descriptive; "Thrust" is.) He could even develop a couple of
"special abilities" for the Art, and use experience (and role-played
training sessions) to buy them later on.<

Great stuff...I'll get him on it. I've always had problems with this
player wanting to go willy-nilly through the martial arts maneuvers and
pick whatever he likes...this will make him give a justification for his
purchases. Now that I think about it, all of his characters have had some
martial maneuvers, even if they're energy projectors....

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:23:32 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Damage Shield
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Todd Hanson
>In the BBB, it specifically says that you only apply your damage shield
if you grab someone.<

I looked it up this morning, and you're right...damage shield only does
damage if someone attacks you, or if you grab someone. Back to my special
effect of being surrounded by fire...in order for me to burn them with my
fire "aura" by touching them, I would need to buy an Energy Blast, No
Range? Why doesn't damage shield include outgoing attacks as well as
incoming attacks? Just to keep the power in check?

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:23:33 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Disadvantages
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Curt Hicks
>Remember that you aren't required to get the full amount of disadvantages.

I asked a little while back how many people usually took the full amount.
It did look like most people do 'max out the disadvantages'.<

But if you don't take the full amount of disadvantages, then you have less
points to spend on your character, which means you are most likely going to
be weaker than everyone else in the campaign (on both sides). This would
only work if the GM was willing to modify each and every villain so that
they were weaker as well.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:23:34 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by "Theala Sildorian"
>Now the rules states that you can't have both Secret ID and Public
ID. I disagree with that rule, and in my campaign a character may
have both if his concept justifies it. I cite Bruce Wayne as an
example of a person who has both: everyone knows Bruce Wayne,
business tycoon, playboy philanthropist who lives at Stately Wayne
Manor outside of Gotham City--but no one knows he is hiding a secret:
that he rides at night as the mysterious Batman.<

In theory, you're right. However, using Champions mechanics, you wouldn't
make a separate character sheet for Bruce Wayne, since he and Batman have
the same characteristics, skills, etc. So, all you would need to buy for
Batman is Secret ID: Bruce Wayne, and then you just define Bruce Wayne to
be famous. You don't buy Public ID at all.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:23:35 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Martial Artist: no diversity?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Sakura
>Could you post the whole character sheet along with the campaign
averages?<

I'm not sure how he spent 250 points and came up with so little. I already
have a lot of modifications for him to make (or to suggest that he make)...
If there are still problems after the rewrite, I'll post the whole
haracter.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:23:35 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by "Theala Sildorian"
>The Q idea probably comes from Star Trek: The Next Generation. Hit
him. Hit him hard.<

Yeah, I know it's a Star Trek reference, but I can't figure out why he
named a shapeshifter "Q". It doesn't make any sense to me. I don't want
to step on his toes and make him change it, but I might make some jokes
about his name through the campaign newspaper.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:23:36 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Disadvantages
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Sakura
>Yup. It's even worse with the 'high-powered superheros' - I think it's
225 points of disads? I created a super on that power level once and had
to severely struggle to get that many disadvantages, including taking some
that didn't fit the concept very well.<

I usually run 300 point campaigns (this 250-point I'm starting is "low
power" for me)...when I go above 250 points, I don't require any extra
disads. I just increase the base and keep the disad points at 150.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Why not official answers?
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:27:16 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> Why doesn't HERO Games give us the official answers to these questions?
> Why let us, and the rules, languish in hazy imperspicuity? HERO has a
> presence on this list, but the answers are not forthcoming. Does anyone
> know why?
>
I believe they've always felt it was up to each game to decide.
Though we've always stated we'd like official answers then have the option
of house ruling from there. Their view seems to have been it's all a house
rule.
After the days when Gary Gygax used to write columns in Dragon
flaming anyone who didn't play the way he felt they should; I can understand
a game company taking this stance.

> And even then, why not compile all our rules questions and send them to
> HERO to get the answers?

In their 5th edition questionare, they have essentially asked us
to ask away. It's on their website.

Rook ?U ?k 1b
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Roleplay

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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Countering increased drain times
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:28:36 -0500 (EST)
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>
> Effects of drain and transfer normally return at 5 points per
> turn. This can be moved down the time chart one level for each +1/4
> advantage.
>
> I was thinking about a character who recovers from adverse
> effects very quickly to the extent that within a few seconds he would be
> just about as good as new. Obviously, a high recovery would be part of
> it but the effects of drains and transfers can make it harder to be able
> to be a dynamic sponge. Power and ego defence dont go far enough for the
> effet that I am after.

Why not? Use the Gradual Effect limitation from HSA 1. Or just make up a
limitation. 30 pts Power Defense, -1/4 "Doesn't kick in until my phase
after my next (or current) one." (That way one of his phases is spent
with the drained power before it snaps back.) And no, it is not worth
more than -1/4.

> Some of the thoughts that I had included bastardised versions of
> multiform or duplication but the recent discussions on this site seem to
> indicate that many people believe that damage transfers. Oh, well.

I don't. I give a -1/4 limitation for that. But, be that as it may, I
don't see how that would help. The other form would not get recoveries
while the second form is in existence.



Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: SteveL1979 <SteveL1979@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:31:45 EST
Subject: Re: Why not official answers?
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In a message dated 98-03-17 10:21:39 EST, susano@access.digex.net writes:

<< Hero is noted for being vauge about certain ruleings, the Linked debate
among them. They also seem less than willing to come out with offical
rulings, prefering to let individual GM decide what is best. Now, 5th
Edition is *supposed* to fix a number of these vague rule wordings, and
Steve Long *is* on this list. I am willing to bet that he would be more
than happy to listen to any question you might have and accept any list of
rules you think need to be clarified. >>

I certainly would be willing to accept such a list. Or, better yet, you can
use the questionnaire on Hero's website to offer your suggestions about things
to add to or change in the Hero System.

Steve Long

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Subject: Re: Secret ID/Public ID related question
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:36:36 EST
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>Hey Psych Lim fans ...
>
>I ran into an interesting situation designing a character that I need
>some help with. The character in question has to hide his real
>identity
>for reason "X" so he set himself up a new name with a new SSN and
>everything. Now this character also is a superhero who wants to keep
>his
>superheroic identity secret. What kind of psych lim's would you give
>him?? Two Secret ID's ??? Is that legal ??

Personally, I'd have the character pay 2 points for the "Deep Cover" perk
from Dark Champs. Then, I'd give him one Secret ID and a limitation (not
necessarily Psych) related to why he has the Deep Cover and what would
happen if it was ever blown.

For example, let's say the Deep Cover represents being in the Witness
Protection Plan. The related limitation could be "Hunted by crime ring"
or "Fear of crime ring", or possibly "Berserk/Enraged when facing members
of crime ring". ("If they capture me I'm _doomed_!")

Leah

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:38:24 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
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On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Dataweaver wrote:
> > If the character has neither Disad, then it is assumed that the
> > character may not be advertising the fact he is a superhero, but that
> > he doesn't hide it either. It also means that, unless the character
> > has a Rep, that no one will instantly recognize his name either.
>
> Sounds about right; you have your privacy, and you're not leading a double
> life...

I think a good example of this kind of hero would be Jack Knight from the
Starman comics (excellent read, BTW - I highly recommend them.) It's
common knowledge that he's Starman in Opal City, but for some reason he
doesn't have the 'celebrity' that some other heros do - he's able to lead
a (fairly) normal life as the owner of a retro store/junk shop/whatever
you want to call it.

J

"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:42:35 -0500
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Re: Damage Shield
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David Stallard wrote:
>
> Message text written by Todd Hanson
> >In the BBB, it specifically says that you only apply your damage shield
> if you grab someone.<
>
> I looked it up this morning, and you're right...damage shield only does
> damage if someone attacks you, or if you grab someone. Back to my special
> effect of being surrounded by fire...in order for me to burn them with my
> fire "aura" by touching them, I would need to buy an Energy Blast, No
> Range? Why doesn't damage shield include outgoing attacks as well as
> incoming attacks? Just to keep the power in check?


I've seen it done a couple of ways - a no-range energy blast, or a
couple of dice of HA (or limited str) defined as being additional energy
damage.

The reasoning for this is simply to balance the effectiveness of the
power with the cost.


Todd


--
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BadTodd@dacmail.net winter is coming, winter is here.
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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:45:51 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: RE: Why not official answers?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Darien Phoenix Lynx
>Why doesn't HERO Games give us the official answers to these questions?
Why let us, and the rules, languish in hazy imperspicuity? HERO has a
presence on this list, but the answers are not forthcoming. Does anyone
know why?<

I've been wondering the same thing. I wasn't sure if Hero monitored this
list, but I thought that they certainly should be. Perhaps it's because
Hero is jazzed up about Fuzion and 4E is their "legacy system" which they
want to deal with as little as possible. Do Hero reps often make
appearances on the Fuzion mailing list?

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:45:52 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Hero Plus opinions?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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I'm just wondering what everyone thinks of the Hero Plus idea in general.
I've never been real excited about it. I'd much prefer to have a book in
my hands, for some reason. It's not that I'm afraid of technology (I'm a
software engineer by day), but there's just something about flipping
through pages that can't be satisfied by Hero Plus. Yes, I know you can
print out Hero Plus, but it's just not the same... A packet of pages
stapled together (and not in color, at least with my current printer) just
isn't the same as a regular book. Anyone else feel the same way, or am I
just nuts? I should say that I don't have any of the Hero Plus products
and haven't checked out the sample(s) they released (didn't they give away
part of Ultimate Supermage (or whatever) for free?).

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:46:55 -0500
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
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David Stallard wrote:

> Yeah, I know it's a Star Trek reference, but I can't figure out why he
> named a shapeshifter "Q". It doesn't make any sense to me. I don't want
> to step on his toes and make him change it, but I might make some jokes
> about his name through the campaign newspaper.


You have one of those too, huh?

what is it about shapeshifting martial artists and one letter names? I
had a player in my game about 6 months ago who had a shapeshifting
martial artist named 'T'. (actually he spelled it T'he). We generally
pronounced it 'TeeHee' to annoy him.


Todd




--
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BadTodd@dacmail.net winter is coming, winter is here.
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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:48:00 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Diverse martial artist
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> Yes, he ought to be able to. If nothing else, he should be proficient
in the Normal's profession. The language of the original Martial Artist
and some cultural knowledge would be a good idea too.<

Surprisingly enough, this martial artist has all of that (the Normal is a
history professor specializing in Asian studies). I say surprising because
usually these players buy the bare minimum in skills (just enough to get me
off their backs), and everything else is combat-oriented. However, with
this character, I don't think he has enough combat-oriented options to keep
the player happy (I don't think the player realizes this yet). Some of the
other problems with this character that we will be fixing (the 2nd damage
shield) will free up a significant amount of points, so hopefully he'll be
able to diversify the character a bit more.

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:51:47 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: RE: Why not official answers?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Darien Phoenix Lynx
>Why doesn't HERO Games give us the official answers to these questions?
Why let us, and the rules, languish in hazy imperspicuity? HERO has a
presence on this list, but the answers are not forthcoming. Does anyone
know why?<

I think Hero should be using this mailing list as a sounding board for the
changes they are thinking about for 5th edition. Better to get the kinks
worked out before you go to press than have a mailing list full of people
yelling at you for some unpopular decision. But like I said in the other
message on this topic, I think Hero is all fired up for Fuzion and C:NM,
and 4E is just an old product that needs to be maintained.

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:52:50 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Why not official answers?
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> Why doesn't HERO Games give us the official answers to these questions?
> Why let us, and the rules, languish in hazy imperspicuity? HERO has a
> presence on this list, but the answers are not forthcoming. Does anyone
> know why?

Sure.

> And even then, why not compile all our rules questions and send them to
> HERO to get the answers? It's one thing to debate over what mechanics are
> best, how to build characters, and which house rules make sense--quite
> another to engage in the literary exercise of deciphering the rulebook and
> taking interpretive sides over something that probably should not be
> treated (or written) like a crude old text of Linear A.

Because many of the recent discussions are merely matters of
SFX-dependant powers. Things that could work either way depending on the
concept necessary. If the GM thinks that there is enough advantage or
limitation to warrant points, go for it. This is a highly customizable
system -- the last thing we want to do is shove ideas on concept down
everyone's throats.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:56:25 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Disadvantages
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Darien Phoenix Lynx
>That's funny. Since everyone is telling their own approach to disads,
here's mine: I require 10 points of disadvantages, and impose no maximum.<

So you give all your players the same amount of points, regardless of how
many disads they take?

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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:57:05 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Disadvantages
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David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> wrote:
>
> But if you don't take the full amount of disadvantages, then you have les=
> s
> points to spend on your character, which means you are most likely going =
> to
> be weaker than everyone else in the campaign (on both sides). This would=
>
> only work if the GM was willing to modify each and every villain so that
> they were weaker as well.
>
In practice, I agree with you. In theory, if a GM is enforcing disadvantages,
then your lesser number of points would be offset by the other characters
disadvantages.

Curt Hicks

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:00:15 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: The Great Multiform Debate Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
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On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Rook wrote:

> The problem here is that there are two equally valid and genre
> supported special effects here.
>
> 1) the ultra-shapeshifter/mindshifter
> 2) The two for one body special
>
> In the first, not having damage carryover seems absurd. However in the
> second having it also seems absurd.

I'd be inclined to let it come down to SFX. If it's the same body, then
there's damage carryover - but healing one body heals the other. If there
are two different bodies, well, the next time Captain Changeling appears,
he's still going to be in bad shape, because that body has been in 'cold
storage' snce the character transformed back.

J

"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 11:09:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Hero Plus opinions?
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I don't care much for Hero Plus, as I prefer the feel of a book. And, as
someone once said, you can't take your computer into the bathroom.

Now, if hero Plus was in html instead of Adobe Acrobat, I'd like it a lot
better. It would read faster,load faster and probably take up less space.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:39:34 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: EC and VPP
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On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Dataweaver wrote:

> Here's an idea that I've been toying around with for some time now:
>
> Elemental Power Pool
> --------------------
>
> This is actually a combination of a Variable Power Pool and an Elemental
> Control; decide upon the pool cost, and apply that as a discount for any
> power that matches the pool's special effect in a manner similar to an
> Elemental Control. Furthermore, pay a Control Cost on the Pool Cost just
> like you would for a VPP; you are not allowed to buy off the skill roll
> requirement with an Advantage, nor do you get a discount for the pool
> being restricted to a single special effect. The associated skill
> represents your ability to improvise powers on the fly, while the
> Elemental Control represents those effects that you've already mastered...

Hmm...it seems to me that this would make the combination of EC + VPP a
lot cheaper than normal - you're effectively putting the VPP into an EC.
The rules say it's a no-no, but I suspect you already know that. I'd be
very leery of it in my games because it would make characters with ECs a
/lot/ more powerful than their non-ECed brethren.

It would certainly encourage 'power stunts', which is I think what you're
looking for, but I'm not sure it'd do it in the right way - anyone without
an EC (EPP, rather) would not be able to do the stunts.

Here's something you might want to consider: Give every character in the
campaign a power pool of X points, with a limitation 'Only for Power
Stunts' and 'All Powers must have Requires Skill Roll'. Each Power Stunt
would be a separate skill, but one could buy 5-point levels with 'all
power stunts'. When a player wants to try something new, they have to buy
at least 1 point in the specific power stunt skill on the spot (and /can/
spend more to buy their skill up higher).

If they ever want to increase the power level beyond that of the pool, or
if they want to be able to do it without a skill roll, then they need to
buy it as a regular power. If they do that, I'd let them 'trade in' the
points they spent on that power stunt skill for appropriate other skill
levels.

J

"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Why not official answers?
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:42:27 -0800 (PST)
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> I've been wondering the same thing. I wasn't sure if Hero monitored this=
> list, but I thought that they certainly should be. Perhaps it's because
> Hero is jazzed up about Fuzion and 4E is their "legacy system" which they=
> want to deal with as little as possible. Do Hero reps often make
> appearances on the Fuzion mailing list?

I've been off of that list for about three to four months now.
But when I was on it they made more posts in there in a day than I do in
here. :)
I'd say they were one of the most active posters there. And that
was just the one herogames@aol person (Steve P.), a large perscentage of the
other traffic was GRG and a few other related people.

So I'd say you're right. They'd sweep Hero under the carpet and forget
it was ever made if they felt the fans would let them. But I think somebody
there finally realized that doing so could even hurt Fuzion by way of bad
reputation for a small company.

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:44:13 +0000
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: C:NM setting in 4E?
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As I see it, owning (and running) both Fuzion and Hero is sort of like
buying a computer game (Fuzion) and also getting the source code (Hero).

I have played, and loved, Hero for years for it's flexibility. But I was
always playing with other "Hero-Players". Now we have all moved to
different corners of the world (different universities) and I have a new
group none of whom have ever played Hero.

I started up a Hero campaign (naturally, I mean.. these poor misguided
fools.. what had they been playing in the meantime??). This was the
first time I realised how impenetrable the rules of Hero can be to
"outsiders". I quickly saw the game collapsing, and so I kept
simplifying the rules and watering stuff down until everyone at least
had the basics down.

Then along came Fuzion. Nearly all my rules simplifications were there..
it was virtually what we had been playing. Although it was too late to
change the background I quickly passed the C:NM book around the players
over the next week whilst I busied myself converting the characters and
stuff over.

The point of this is I now carry two books, my Fuzion book and my 4th ed
book. When something tricky happens, or I want to use a power which
isn't in the Fuzion book I can work it out in Hero terms (sadly..
sometimes in my head!) and then just convert it over.

I have been playing like this for about 2 months now, and the players
are starting to want to develop more and more esoteric powers and pull
of some really convoluted maneuvers (a martial artist speedster... I
should never have allowed it... never.....). Soon they will "graduate"
to Hero and this transition will hopefully be as easy as it was the
other way round...


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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:56:01 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Why not official answers?
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On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
> At 08:46 AM 3/17/98 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
> >Seeing some of the rules questions and disputes that have been going on on
> >this list for many years, I bring myself to ask:
> >
> >Why doesn't HERO Games give us the official answers to these questions?
> >Why let us, and the rules, languish in hazy imperspicuity?
>
> More fun this way. :)

There's at least one RPG company out there that staunchly refuses to even
acknowledge the concept of "official vs. unofficial" in an RPG; the
closest thing to "official" that exists is "the rules as the GM interprets
them". There _is_ a distinction drawn between "published" and
"unpublished", though, in that "published" material is more likely to have
been checked for compatability with other published material than
unpublished material...

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:57:15 +0000
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Disadvantages
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Sakura wrote:
>
> On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:
>
> > Does anyone else have trouble getting 150 points worth of
> disadvantages for
> > their 250-point heroes?
>
> >
> I think that part of this is due to the attitude that a lot of HERO
> players have...Pyschlim: Must max out on disads. Of course, that
> attitude
> is reinforced by the fact that if you don't take disads, you usually
> can't
> get a character that's anywhere near the campaign power levels for DC
> and
> CV...and if you do there's no room for 'power stunts' or background
> skills, etc.
>

My group also suffers from this problem when creating characters.
Someone will take the "Full Monty" - 150 points of Disadvantages. They
then pump up all thier powers and such (as they entitled to do and will
probably need to do with some of the psychlims they have come up with)

Next thing I know I am flooded by mails or phone calls by Johnny X and
how the player forgot to tell me about the Mafia boss who wants him
dead. Disadvantages breeding disadvantages (or maybe a new Freudian
disad : Points Envy)

I had a pretty good way of stiffling this straight away. I let them all
max out the disads; taking ridiculous and even contradictory stuff then
started the game with the getting caught up in a dime store robbery late
at night. The GARDA (my version of the GUARD who have pinched their name
from the Police Force of Southern Ireland (EIRE)) turned up and gassed
them all. Because of all the stuff that had been going down that night,
the cells were pretty full. The 3 players protested that "they were all
heroes goddamn it!" so the GARDA chucked them all in one little cell.

After about 3 minutes of idle conversation as the heros introduced
themselves to each other there was a pictched melee between the players
as they all contravened each others TOTAL PSYCH LIMS which spilled out
into the GARDA
barracks, releasing all the villians (super and otherwise) that had been
captured that week. Now the players had a crime wave on thier hands, but
were too busy kicking each others tails.

Over the next week I had lots of other phone calls asking if some D6 of
energy could be sold back to buy of "Irrational hatred of masks"
COMMOM.TOTAL......

The moral of the story: Disadvantages ARE disadvantages (and of course,
disadvantages which are NOT disadvantages are not worth any points)


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 17:32:54 +0000
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ecto-Man (If you don't own Horror Hero)
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I dont' own a copy of Horror Hero (and don't think I am likely to be
able to get hold of a copy). In case this is case for anyone else, here
are my takes on Ecto-Man which can be done with just the 4th Ed rules
(apologies if these are actually rehashes of what is in HH, but as I
said... I don't own it....)

dflacks wrote [EDITED QUOTE]:
>
> I am designing a character for a new campaign and could use some
> suggestions from the creative people on the list. I am looking at a
> kind of living ghost. IE, someone with ghostly powers without actually
> being Undead. Perhaps a comatose man projecting his mind or someone who
> physically died but mentally continued.
>
> His body is made of ectoplasm, and is a physical manifestation of his
> mind.
> His powers all stem from his Ecto-body. Since he is not Undead he
> can not terrify people by saying boo, or do damage by howling, etc.
>
> Some power ideas I am currently considering are;
>
> 2) Desolid. His ectoplasm body only interacts with reality if he
> wants it to. I like the invisible effects advantage here. Killer Kaboom man
> throws a grenade at Ecto-man. Visually he gets splashed all over by
> the explosion, but pulls himself back together immediately. More nice
> visuals. He may or may not be able to pass through walls. I havent decided
> which is better.

He already has teleportation (whoops clipped that! Honest he has
teleport!) I don't think he needs to be able to pass through walls as
well. Although you did say he couldn't teleport to places he could not
see... Or how about combining an invisibility with this. He can go
totally desolid and invisible. Obviously he can't have any attacks or
powers which are effective in this form (way too abusive!) This could be
a sort of "astral form" for his disembodied mind until he calls forth
another body (at which point his invisibility switches off). This would
also explain how he can turn up different places if he hasn't even seen
them.

> 3) Regeneration or Aid. Since his body is only a manifestation of
> his mind made out of ectoplasm, and he can summon more ectoplasm for a new
> body when he t-ports, then he can summon more ectoplasm to regenerate
> damages. He would be able to regrow limbs. Alternately a healing aid linked to
> the teleportation. His newly created body doesnt have the same damage as
> his old body. Firebird fries Ecto-man then stares open mouthed as his
> body melts away and he reappears a few feet away no longer singed.

You could buy the Aid is triggered-teleport or as linked-teleport.
Triggered might be better, as you could then also just heal up on the
spot if you wanted to. Thats got a great visual... some sword wielding
geezer (or even better a clawed Wolverine clone) chops your arm clean
off. Ecto-man looks down and grins as suddenly slime starts to leak from
the ceiling and walls. It forms puddles on the floor which he draws into
himself, growing the new arm in front of the cheesed looking claw
master..

> 4) Entangle. Throwing sticky globs of ectoplasm at his targets. Ive
> been slimed!!

I wouldn't be able to resist putting sticky on this, or even a linked
cosmetic transform to account for the victim being covered in foul
smelling hell spawned goo.

> 5) Growth. I dont like this one but it fits the theme. If he can
> summon extra ectoplasm for other needs then why not to make himself bigger.
> I wont be using this because for two reasons. Firstly I dont want a
> giant brick type for this character, I dont see strength as being his
> forte.
> Secondly, Having a giant ectoplasmic entity roaming the city is just
> asking the GM to bring out those four guys in the repainted hearse with the
> proton packs. Whos the GM going to call...

How about density increase instead? If you put a heavy END cost on it to
make it prohibitive in use then I think it could work. Alternatively, if
he's going to be sucking all that extra ecoplasm out of the ether, how
about duplication instead?

> 6) Stretching. Twisting his ectoplasmic body into new and interesting
> shapes. Nice visuals, but as I dont see strength being his thing, I
> probably wouldnt bother with this either.

This could be combined with the entangle. Basically, Ecto slaps his
enemy - leaving a piece of himself behind. Alternatively, for a slightly
darker campaign, this could be extended to some sort of suffocation
attack. Ecto streches out, wrapping his body around his enemy entangling
him and cutting off his air supply. This could be his main offensive
power.

>
> Disadvantage: Takes body damage from ego attacks. Since his body is a
> manifestation of metal energy, it is physically effected by mental
> energy. Note: Since he is not 'Undead' he is not adversly effected by religous
> icons, sunlight, etc.
>

This guy has to have Distinctive Features right?
He might also have vulnerability to some kind of attacks. How about
water based attacks (is ectoplasm soluble?). Obviously psych-lim can
come from the character who is summoning the plasm. If he is in a comma
somewhere, how about giving a DNPC family who come to watch over him in
silent vigil, but are slowly drifting into thier own lives without him
around (borrows a little from Spawn, but could stand).
Can the ectoplasmic form function in every human capacity? Can it speak,
smell, hear etc?

How about building his comatose body as a duplicate which shares
body/stun with the Ecto form. This has the side effect of meaning that
if anyone ever finds out ecto-mans secret they can destroy him by
killing his original body. A nice plot twist as ecto-man's family have
to witness an slimy beast defending the body of thier
husband/father/brother. If you want to GET points from this, rather than
SPEND them, build it as some kind of dependancy or susceptability. Any
damamge this form takes is felt by ectoman and if this body dies he will
slowly fade away..

And what happens if he wakes up from his coma? Could we see ecto-man
having to thwart a doctors plans to give life-saving surgery to his host
body because he is the only one who can save the lives of the other
heroes? Oh the drama! Oh the sacrifice!!!

> Does anybody have any suggestions. The character currently has no
> real offensive capacity, apart from the entangle. How is he supported to
> stop the bad guys. Remember he is not Undead and therefore doesnt have
> any of the traditional spooky attacks.
>

The stretching/entangling/suffocating thing is quite good (but I would
say that - it was my idea!)

I agree with J and R Prins : Not being undead doesn't preclude you from
having a decent PRE attack. Personally I think the sight of a man made
of ecto plasm would knock my socks off. Extending on that, how about an
attack linked to presence? Basically the sight of this guy is so scary
that he gives you a heart attack when you see him. It's damage should be
linked in some way to the effect of the PRE attack.

> Another problems is what happens if he is knocked unconscious? Since
> his ecto-body is a manifestation of his mind, knocking him unconscious
> should start the dissolve process. This if fine if he is CON stunned as he
> can literally pull himself together, but if he is damaged into negative
> stun his body could dissolve before he recovers. The villains could never
> capture him because he would dissolve away. Alternately, if his
> teammates leave or a captured, how is he to find them again. If he remanifests
> himself where he was knocked unconscious everyone could be long gone.
> Does this need to be modelled, and how would you do it. A triggered
> Desolid with 0 END sounds right, except that being physically non-existent he
> would not be vulnerable to ANY attacks. Perhaps his subconscious mind can
> maintain his ecto-body, or maybe it takes days for his ectobodies to
> dissolve? Little puddles of disolving ecto-slime left behind for days
> whenever he teleports. I don't paticularly like that idea.
>

If I had to model this I would probably use the invisible+desolid form I
discribed earlier and trigger a reversion to this form if ectoman was
pushed to negative stun.
Alternatively, you could have some kind of Extra-Dimensional movement
triggered by neg-stun. If the concious mind is beaten into
unconciousness then ecto-man returns to the land of the dead or
something. This could be good if it was tricky for him to get back. He
would have to avoid getting neg stunned at all costs by going into this
invis+desol form. This means that if an enemy could hit him hard enough,
fast enough, they could put him out of action for quite a while. A nice
plot device/thread, but annoying for the other players if they are
waiting to be rescued and ectoman is battling his way out of the
netherworld single handed...

> I dont have a problem with him dissolving away but I think the GM
> might be upset with a character who can not be captured by the villains.
>

You don't have to be KO-ed to be captured. If I was faced with this guy
as a GM I am sure that the enemy super-genius (theres ALWAYS one!) would
think of maybe.. throwing ectoman into a big drum? If he had had time to
study ectoman's powers he might even had the sense to make the container
HARDENED to stop him floting out in astral form (or double hardened for
safety). How about kidnapping that family? Now ecto has to show up or we
could end up with some kind of ecto-family fighting crime.

> Any help would be appreciated. When I finish the design I will may
> post it to the list if people want to see it. Unlike my ghostly character,
> I think I am thick skinned enough to take the inevitable responses.
>
> Daniel Flacks dflacks@ican.net
>
> Give me ambiguity or give me something else


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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 11:46:18 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Hero Plus opinions?
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On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> I'm just wondering what everyone thinks of the Hero Plus idea in general.
> I've never been real excited about it. I'd much prefer to have a book in
> my hands, for some reason. It's not that I'm afraid of technology (I'm a
> software engineer by day), but there's just something about flipping
> through pages that can't be satisfied by Hero Plus. Yes, I know you can
> print out Hero Plus, but it's just not the same... A packet of pages
> stapled together (and not in color, at least with my current printer) just
> isn't the same as a regular book. Anyone else feel the same way, or am I
> just nuts? I should say that I don't have any of the Hero Plus products
> and haven't checked out the sample(s) they released (didn't they give away
> part of Ultimate Supermage (or whatever) for free?).

I have problems with Hero Plus myself, but for different reasons (note
that standard sourcebooks generally come out in black-and-white anyway, so
there's no real loss there; and an office store like Kinko's can do a very
good job of binding sheafs of papers into a book-like format for around
one or two dollars - in fact, you can even get the pages double-sided if
you want, for a reasonable price - I've managed to take a sheaf of
single-sided papers and turn them into an almost-professional-looking book
form for $5...).

The problems that I have are:

1. Hero Plus products cost $10-$20 each, on the average; add to that the
cost of printing out a hundred-plus pages, and you end up paying more
for a Hero-Plus book than for Changeling: the Dreaming, Second Edition
(a full-color, hard-bound book). Considering that Hero Games doesn't
have any printing costs to cover for their Hero Plus products, and that
they have an effectively unlimited run for each of their books, you'd
think that they'd be able to lower their prices somewhat...

2. Accessability stinks; they've been up on the web for over a year now,
and they still don't have any way for you to receive their products
over the Internet. Combine that with the fact that you can't leaf
through their products before buying them (and rightfully so), and you
have a severe curtail on impulse-buying. I want to be able to pay for
a Hero Plus product, wait half an hour (at most), and then be able to
print it out. It is quite do-able...

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 12:46:44 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Why not official answers?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Brian Wong
> I believe they've always felt it was up to each game to decide.
Though we've always stated we'd like official answers then have the option
of house ruling from there. Their view seems to have been it's all a house
rule.
After the days when Gary Gygax used to write columns in Dragon
flaming anyone who didn't play the way he felt they should; I can
understand
a game company taking this stance.<

I think this view is too extreme, especially for the Hero System. The
company should be giving guidelines, saying "If I were GMing your group, I
would...." That way, it still feels like a suggestion or a house rule, but
you can have some confidence in it since it comes from an "official"
source. I would vastly prefer a game company who is very strict in issuing
clarifications and new rulings than having an apathetic company who
basically doesn't care about the shortcomings and unclear passages in their
product, but some middle ground would probably work for most people.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:05:02 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: Disadvantages
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At 10:23 AM 3/17/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by Curt Hicks
>>Remember that you aren't required to get the full amount of disadvantages.
>
>I asked a little while back how many people usually took the full amount.
>It did look like most people do 'max out the disadvantages'.<
>
>But if you don't take the full amount of disadvantages, then you have less
>points to spend on your character, which means you are most likely going to
>be weaker than everyone else in the campaign (on both sides). This would
>only work if the GM was willing to modify each and every villain so that
>they were weaker as well.

Your character isn't necessarily that much weaker. A character built on
100 base points and 100 points in Disadvantages may have 50 points less to
spend on Powers and such than one built on 100 base points and 150 points
in Disdvantages, but he also has 50 points less in Disadvantages for the GM
(or, more specifically, his enemies) to take advantage of.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 18:16:14 +0000
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: huge dudes with capes - example
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A really good example of what might happen to a REAL world if people
started showing up with paranormal abilities is Alan Moore's Watchmen.
This book shows how much effect just one 3500 point level character
could have on the world in general; politically, socially, economically
etc.

I have to admit, I have to wonder why Tony Stark never built a limited
version of his armour for firefighters. He walks through flames and
explosions on a regular basis.


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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:16:49 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: Martial Artist: no diversity?
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At 10:23 AM 3/17/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by "Jeff M. Reid"
>>The skills can be kind of an important detail to omit, especially for a
>Martial Artist. Are you asking if the character is diverse enough from a
>combat standpoint, or from a campaign standpoint?<
>
>I was thinking from the combat standpoint. Actually, I'm impressed at both
>of my players this time around, because they didn't skimp on the skills
>like they normally do. However, I don't think this martial artist player
>is going to be happy in combat, because he just doesn't have many
>choices...especially if his staff gets taken away (and what kind of GM
>would I be if I didn't snatch it away from time to time?). Take away the
>staff, and all he has are a couple defensive maneuvers and his damage
>shield.

The Damage Shield, as I mentioned before, should be low -- but, I point
out now for the first time, not *too* low. It should be big enough that,
even without his staff, he should be able to have *some* effect on his
supervillainous foes.
As an example: I once had a character named Miss Dozen, who was a
martial artist who could divide in up to twelve "selves." (Yes, this was
under Third Edition rules, since the character would be impractical under
Fourth Edition -- something I hope is fixed under Fifth Edition; and yes,
she was a baker in her Secret Identity.) She was also a Martial Artist.
In designing her, I gave her the least I thought would be at all
effective in combat against supervillains. I came up with an 8d6 Martial
Punch (her usual attack) and 10d6 Martial Kick (her backup when things got
hairy). With a DEX of 20 and SPD of 4, she'd be barely acceptable as a
superheroine if there was only one of her -- but since she could be up to
twelve bodies at once, she could do things like Coordinate attacks, "set
up" villains for sucker punches, and so forth. Though she never got the
chance to prove it, she was also the only person around who literally could
"one-punch" an entire VIPER five-team. Since I'm fairly fast in making
combat decisions and such, she worked out really well.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:19:16 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
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At 10:23 AM 3/17/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade
>> I think you're thinking of the wrong Q, the one that Theala mentioned
>instead of this shapeshifting character.<
>
>Hehe... I should have known that character's name would cause some
>confusion. Oh, how I wish that player would pick a name that at least made
>a little sense with his shapeshifting powers!

Then suggest he call himself X. ;-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:20:53 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: The Great Multiform Debate
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At 10:00 AM 3/17/1998 -0600, Sakura wrote:
>On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Rook wrote:
>
>> The problem here is that there are two equally valid and genre
>> supported special effects here.
>>
>> 1) the ultra-shapeshifter/mindshifter
>> 2) The two for one body special
>>
>> In the first, not having damage carryover seems absurd. However in the
>> second having it also seems absurd.
>
>I'd be inclined to let it come down to SFX. If it's the same body, then
>there's damage carryover - but healing one body heals the other. If there
>are two different bodies, well, the next time Captain Changeling appears,
>he's still going to be in bad shape, because that body has been in 'cold
>storage' snce the character transformed back.

Do you think these two ways of handling it are balanced?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 18:22:07 +0000
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
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David Stallard wrote:
>
> One of my players created a martial artist this weekend, and I'm
> somewhat
> concerned that the character doesn't have enough options to keep it
> interesting. Let me know what you think. The character has 5 or 6
> martial
> maneuvers, most of which have a focus: Bo staff (is a focus the right
> way
> to do this, or is it better as a limited power "only with bo staff"?
> The
> only example I could find was The Whip(4E)/Scourge(C:NM)). He has two
> that
> don't require the staff, but I think they are defensive (Dodge is one,
> I
> can't remember the other). Now, this character is also surrounded by
> a
> mystic fire (damage shield). He can project this mystic fire to
> surround
> anything he is holding (thus, his staff could also do damage from the
> damage shield...we bought this as a 2nd damage shield with UAO, only
> vs
> handheld objects...sound right?). Without going into skills or
> anything,
> this is essentially the entire character. He has no resistant
> defense...should I be concerned about this? Actually, the whole party
> (2
> PCs) has no resistant defense...I'm concerned about it, and hopefully
> they
> will be too after I show them what a blade or a bullet can do...they
> both
> usually play characters with force fields or armor or something else
> that
> gives them a significant amount of rPD/rED.

Having read this, I have to wonder where the rest of his points have
gone?
I would have to presume that, with him being a martial artist, he has
spent a lot of points of DEX,CV and SPD. This might go a fair way to
countering his lack of resistant defences. Most martial artists in
fiction rarely actually wear any armour (probably because it would
hamper thier agility) but rely on dodges, blocks and deflections. The
one thing that I might think is limiting about the character is all he
really has are combat powers.
I have a player who is what you might call a "min-max" master. Maximum
combat power, minimum use in noncombat situations. This character seems
to be following the same philosophy.

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 12:24:11 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: EC and VPP
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On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Sakura wrote:

> On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Dataweaver wrote:
>
> > Here's an idea that I've been toying around with for some time now:
> >
> > Elemental Power Pool
> > --------------------
> >
> > This is actually a combination of a Variable Power Pool and an Elemental
> > Control; decide upon the pool cost, and apply that as a discount for any
> > power that matches the pool's special effect in a manner similar to an
> > Elemental Control. Furthermore, pay a Control Cost on the Pool Cost just
> > like you would for a VPP; you are not allowed to buy off the skill roll
> > requirement with an Advantage, nor do you get a discount for the pool
> > being restricted to a single special effect. The associated skill
> > represents your ability to improvise powers on the fly, while the
> > Elemental Control represents those effects that you've already mastered...
>
> Hmm...it seems to me that this would make the combination of EC + VPP a
> lot cheaper than normal - you're effectively putting the VPP into an EC.
> The rules say it's a no-no, but I suspect you already know that. I'd be
> very leery of it in my games because it would make characters with ECs a
> /lot/ more powerful than their non-ECed brethren.

Two things: first, the VPP Control Cost would _not_ get the normal -1/2L
discount for being limited to a single special effect, helping somewhat to
offset the added usefulness. Second, the improvised powers would be
limited to a maximum of half the points of the weakest power in the EC
aspect of the EPP.

> It would certainly encourage 'power stunts', which is I think what you're
> looking for, but I'm not sure it'd do it in the right way - anyone without
> an EC (EPP, rather) would not be able to do the stunts.

True enough...

> Here's something you might want to consider: Give every character in the
> campaign a power pool of X points, with a limitation 'Only for Power
> Stunts' and 'All Powers must have Requires Skill Roll'. Each Power Stunt
> would be a separate skill, but one could buy 5-point levels with 'all
> power stunts'. When a player wants to try something new, they have to buy
> at least 1 point in the specific power stunt skill on the spot (and /can/
> spend more to buy their skill up higher).

Two more modifiers to the pool ('powers must match the special effects of
existing powers' and 'no skill roll is needed to modify the pool'), and
you might have something; except that it doesn't account for one-shot
wonders (characters who use a particular power stunt once and then never
again, such as Aquaman's use of his Fish Telepathy to paralyze the portion
of a Pale Martian's brain that was descended from their ocean-going
heritage...).

> If they ever want to increase the power level beyond that of the pool, or
> if they want to be able to do it without a skill roll, then they need to
> buy it as a regular power. If they do that, I'd let them 'trade in' the
> points they spent on that power stunt skill for appropriate other skill
> levels.

Unless, of course, they are simply increasing the power level, but still
having to improvise it...

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Why not official answers?
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:24:24 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 77

> >Why doesn't HERO Games give us the official answers to these questions?
> Why let us, and the rules, languish in hazy imperspicuity? HERO has a
> presence on this list, but the answers are not forthcoming. Does anyone
> know why?<
>
> I think Hero should be using this mailing list as a sounding board for the
> changes they are thinking about for 5th edition. Better to get the kinks=
> worked out before you go to press than have a mailing list full of people=
> yelling at you for some unpopular decision. But like I said in the other=
> message on this topic, I think Hero is all fired up for Fuzion and C:NM,
> and 4E is just an old product that needs to be maintained.


You know, at various points in time I have been on the following lists:

The Hero/Champ list
The Mekton list
The Heavy Gear and Jovian Cronicles lists
The GURPS list
The ARIA list
The M:TG list and it's sublists
The Fuzion list

And a few others.

Of all of these, only two did not have an active
rep policy by the companies of their products. This one and Mekton.

Most of the others, to include Fuzion btw, have highly active
reps who answer questions and throw out ideas the company's working on.

When Fuzion was first discussed and people flamed the idea on the
newsgroup, Hero just sat back and said 'you computer people are nothing
compared to our larger market share'. This at the same time as putting out
Hero Plus. :)
They didn't use those exact words, but close in tone and feel.
So they've not only lacked a solid net presence, they've typically
alienated the online crowd. Which in turn spreads to what is now a smaller
offline minority as the rumor mill turns.
As a subscriber to the Heavy Gear list; I can tell you straight
out why that game sells so well. Every idea those guys get ends up
getting bounced around the list for a bit before they write it up. If
anybody has a question, there's a guy waiting with an answer.
This doesn't stop house rules. In fact they've complimented a few
house rules.
For some reason, there's never any 'Freat Gear Design Debate' stuff
going on. People know the official rules. There isn't any argument. People
who don't like them post their house rules and start off by saying it's a house
rule. Other people say why they like or dislike it. The company may or may
not say why they did what they did, or even say it's too bad they already
went to print.
For some other unknown reason all the fans of the game also like
the people behind the game. Even the people with bucket loads of house rules,
or the people who use the system for genre X and feel mecha/gear is a silly
genre.


Go Figure.

Rook ?U ?k 1b
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Roleplay

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:27:45 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: Why not official answers?
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At 08:46 AM 3/17/1998 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>Seeing some of the rules questions and disputes that have been going on on
>this list for many years, I bring myself to ask:
>
>Why doesn't HERO Games give us the official answers to these questions?
>Why let us, and the rules, languish in hazy imperspicuity? HERO has a
>presence on this list, but the answers are not forthcoming. Does anyone
>know why?

It's because the people on the list that we *think* are the Hero Guys
are really spies from Steve Jackson Games, sent to find out what we think
is so cool about the Hero System so he can crib it for GURPS 3rd Edition. ;-]

>And even then, why not compile all our rules questions and send them to
>HERO to get the answers? It's one thing to debate over what mechanics are
>best, how to build characters, and which house rules make sense--quite
>another to engage in the literary exercise of deciphering the rulebook and
>taking interpretive sides over something that probably should not be
>treated (or written) like a crude old text of Linear A.

It's the Great Intellectual Pastime of Western Society, taking works
that were meant to be taken in one spirit and trying to decipher them
character by character, with some folks taking a casual view, and other
taking a narrow view. It's been done with the Bible and the Constitution
for most of this century, so why not the Hero System Fourth Edition? (I've
even seen this dissective treatment given to Star Trek, Doctor Who, and
Babylon 5.)
Not that it'd make all that much difference if we did get concrete
"official" responses to our debates. There has actually been one case that
I've seen where someone forwarded a question to Steve Peterson and then
posted Steve's response to the list, and there was still one guy who
insisted that he was right and Steve was wrong.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Why not official answers?
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:30:58 -0800 (PST)
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> > Why doesn't HERO Games give us the official answers to these questions?
> > Why let us, and the rules, languish in hazy imperspicuity? HERO has a
> > presence on this list, but the answers are not forthcoming. Does anyone
> > know why?
>
> > And even then, why not compile all our rules questions and send them to
> > HERO to get the answers? It's one thing to debate over what mechanics are
>
> Because many of the recent discussions are merely matters of
> SFX-dependant powers. Things that could work either way depending on the
> concept necessary. If the GM thinks that there is enough advantage or
> limitation to warrant points, go for it. This is a highly customizable
> system -- the last thing we want to do is shove ideas on concept down
> everyone's throats.

Then perhaps they should be here to say that.

Something like:

"The genre supports multiple views of Multiform. If you choose to only support
one that's fine. If you choose to support a whole list of them, then here
are some ideas on how to balance some of them, lets focus on the most
common varitations:"

follow with list resembling a post I saw earlier showing how a
game could have both the damage travelling through forms, and it not.

Then state why they worded it the way they did in the book. Or how
they would word it today.



OR...

Etc. for the various other issues.


The lack of a Net Rep is very conspicuous (sp?).


Rook ?U ?k 1b
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Roleplay

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:32:06 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: Why not official answers?
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At 09:52 AM 3/17/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> And even then, why not compile all our rules questions and send them to
>> HERO to get the answers? It's one thing to debate over what mechanics are
>> best, how to build characters, and which house rules make sense--quite
>> another to engage in the literary exercise of deciphering the rulebook and
>> taking interpretive sides over something that probably should not be
>> treated (or written) like a crude old text of Linear A.
>
> Because many of the recent discussions are merely matters of
>SFX-dependant powers. Things that could work either way depending on the
>concept necessary. If the GM thinks that there is enough advantage or
>limitation to warrant points, go for it. This is a highly customizable
>system -- the last thing we want to do is shove ideas on concept down
>everyone's throats.

I certainly agree with your last sentence.
However, if the Hero Guys feel that how something should work is a
matter of SFX, or a matter of GM discretion, then *that* is the official
answer. In fact, just those two answers are two different answers; never
mind how they're different from, "This Power Works Like X, unless you apply
a Limitation to make it do Y," or, "This Power does Y, and you have to add
a separate Power, Z, to get it to do X."
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 13:32:20 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Why not official answers?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Brian Wong
> Of all of these, only two did not have an active
rep policy by the companies of their products. This one and Mekton.
<

I participate or have participated in the mailing lists for Earthdawn and
Fading Suns, and both of those lists have active rep support, which is
something I really appreciate. Without an official rep, a mailing list is
just a bunch of people sitting around speculating about something. -grin-

I should note that Hero's forum on CompuServe has an official rep.
Unfortunately, that forum doesn't get very much traffic most of the
time.... There were busy spurts about a year ago and some of the
supplement authors were there as well, but after Fuzion was announced the
forum seemed to die. I haven't checked it in a while, but maybe it's
active with Fuzion talk these days.

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:35:36 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: RE: Why not official answers?
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At 10:45 AM 3/17/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by Darien Phoenix Lynx
>>Why doesn't HERO Games give us the official answers to these questions?
>Why let us, and the rules, languish in hazy imperspicuity? HERO has a
>presence on this list, but the answers are not forthcoming. Does anyone
>know why?<
>
>I've been wondering the same thing. I wasn't sure if Hero monitored this
>list, but I thought that they certainly should be. Perhaps it's because
>Hero is jazzed up about Fuzion and 4E is their "legacy system" which they
>want to deal with as little as possible. Do Hero reps often make
>appearances on the Fuzion mailing list?

Steve Peterson and Bruce Harlick make almost daily posts, answering one
question or another. That they don't do so here is the one major gripe I
have against them as individuals. They've both been very pleasant in all
my correspondence with them, but they fact that they don't maintain an
ongoing presence here, and never have, does irk me a tad.
I've also seen posts from Steve Perrin and Sean Patrick Fannon over
there, and a couple of other familiar names that escape my memory right at
present (and one that I'm not mentioning because I'm not sure I'm
remembering correctly).
The fact that Steve Long and Mark Arsenault are at least watching the
list, in spite of their limited personal time schedules, is very much to
their credit.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 13:45:43 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Disadvantages
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> I'm also infamous for using "Automatic Hunters" for PCs in various
situations. If I have a mutant, he's Hunted by Genocide. If I have an
alien, he's Hunted by the Exterminators, and probably Watched by METE. If
I have a cyborg, he's probably Hunted by Cy-Force. If I have a mentalist,
he's Hunted by Headhunter. If I have a mentalist who's also a mutant, he's
Hunted by PSI (in addition to Genocide and Headhunter). And so forth.<

This is funny...even though I have quite a stack of Champions books (mostly
4th Ed), I don't have source material for any of the groups you've
mentioned. I'm familiar with Genocide and METE by word-of-mouth, and PSI
sounds familiar too, but I've never heard of Exterminators, Headhunter, or
Cy-Force. -grin- Let me guess...Exterminators is in "Enemies: Target
Earth" or whatever it's called, Headhunter is in The Ultimate Mentalist or
Mind Games, and, uh, I don't know where Cy-Force would be found.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 13:47:52 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
>I *might* well require that Energy Blast, 0 END, No Range, Linked to
Damage
Shield, Linked to Martial Arts (yeah, I know, folks, that's stretching the
rules a tad) be taken to represent this effect.<

What about Energy Blast, 0 END, Triggered by successful hit with the staff?
Actually, it would have to be Triggered by a successful hit with any melee
weapon in order to fit the current concept...the staff is just a normal
weapon.

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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Countering increased drain times
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:52:35 -0800
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Bob G suggests:
>regenerating any Character Points lost to Adjustment Powers
>1 character point per Turn for 2 points.

So you're saying that if I spend two points, and wait a turn, I'll get 1
point of char back? Why not just buy 1 point of Power Def and not lose
the char in the first place?

It's not like normal Regeneration that heals Body, since there are tons
of ways to do Body damage that it's very difficult to protect against
them all. To drain/suppress/dispel a char, Power Def is it. I'd rather
buy 10 points of Power Def (or 12 with a "doesn't protect for the first
phase" -1/4 lim) than 10 points of char regeneration.

Dave Mattingly

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Why not official answers?
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:54:52 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> After the days when Gary Gygax used to write columns in Dragon
> flaming anyone who didn't play the way he felt they should; I can
> understand a game company taking this stance.<
>
> source. I would vastly prefer a game company who is very strict in issuing
> clarifications and new rulings than having an apathetic company who
> basically doesn't care about the shortcomings and unclear passages in their
> product, but some middle ground would probably work for most people.

Yeah. Gary Gygax proved to the hobby that it is quite easy to
simply ignore some loon who goes off ranting about official rules and do
what you want. But at the same time, having him there at least lets you know
what was intended when they wrote some vaguely worded piece of prose and you
were fool enough to pay for it. And knowing what was intended goes miles in
knowing what you need to fix in your own game to get what you intend.

Rook ?U ?k 1b
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links
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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 12:58:48 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
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On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> Message text written by "Theala Sildorian"
> >The Q idea probably comes from Star Trek: The Next Generation. Hit
> him. Hit him hard.<
>
> Yeah, I know it's a Star Trek reference, but I can't figure out why he
> named a shapeshifter "Q". It doesn't make any sense to me. I don't want
> to step on his toes and make him change it, but I might make some jokes
> about his name through the campaign newspaper.

Actually, the Q reference might come from James Bond... (there was an
unfortunately brief show called "Legends", where John DeLancy (I think
that's his name; Q from Star Trek) played a character who was remarkably
like Q from James Bond...

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 13:01:30 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Hero Plus opinions?
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On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote:

> I don't care much for Hero Plus, as I prefer the feel of a book. And, as
> someone once said, you can't take your computer into the bathroom.
>
> Now, if hero Plus was in html instead of Adobe Acrobat, I'd like it a lot
> better. It would read faster,load faster and probably take up less space.

But it wouldn't print as well.

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:05:49 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Hero Plus opinions?
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On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Dataweaver wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>
> > I don't care much for Hero Plus, as I prefer the feel of a book. And, as
> > someone once said, you can't take your computer into the bathroom.
> >
> > Now, if hero Plus was in html instead of Adobe Acrobat, I'd like it a lot
> > better. It would read faster,load faster and probably take up less space.
>
> But it wouldn't print as well.

Maybe, maybe not. I do know if it was in HTML, I could edit the file in
order to print just what I want, instead of trying to guess.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Why not official answers?
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 11:14:30 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> something I really appreciate. Without an official rep, a mailing list is
> just a bunch of people sitting around speculating about something. -grin=
>
> I should note that Hero's forum on CompuServe has an official rep. =
> Unfortunately, that forum doesn't get very much traffic most of the
> time.... There were busy spurts about a year ago and some of the
> supplement authors were there as well, but after Fuzion was announced the=
> forum seemed to die. I haven't checked it in a while, but maybe it's
> active with Fuzion talk these days.

Also, AOL, despite it's number of subscribers, is still only one
single ISP with a single T1 to the internet...

This mailing list however is available to anyone with an email
address, regardless of who they pay to get it from. So it gives a much
larger audience to a potential company net rep.

Rook ?U ?k 1b
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Roleplay

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Why not official answers?
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 11:22:08 -0800 (PST)
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> The fact that Steve Long and Mark Arsenault are at least watching the
> list, in spite of their limited personal time schedules, is very much to
> their credit.

Yes it is.

If you meet all these people at Cons; they seem to be the most amiable there
as well.

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 13:24:01 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Reply-To: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Master Ambiguity List
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On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, SteveL1979 wrote:

> In a message dated 98-03-17 10:21:39 EST, susano@access.digex.net writes:
>
> << Hero is noted for being vauge about certain ruleings, the Linked debate
> among them. They also seem less than willing to come out with offical
> rulings, prefering to let individual GM decide what is best. Now, 5th
> Edition is *supposed* to fix a number of these vague rule wordings, and
> Steve Long *is* on this list. I am willing to bet that he would be more
> than happy to listen to any question you might have and accept any list of
> rules you think need to be clarified. >>
>
> I certainly would be willing to accept such a list. Or, better yet, you can
> use the questionnaire on Hero's website to offer your suggestions about things
> to add to or change in the Hero System.

Okay, certainly over the past few years plenty of questions have come up
about how to interpret the stated rules. The GLD is the prime example, but
there are others, like the current discussion on damage carryover in
multiform, and the classic multiple-simultaneous attack question (answered
in the POC as "whatever you want").

Frankly, I would like an official stance on these long time questions. (In
5th edition, Steve, you can certainly include a section on different ways
to vary the rules along with the effects it will have on the game--an aid
to house-rule creation.) But if you're like me, you probably can't recall
all at once what those ambiguities are. But if we all put our heads
together, we should be able to produce the Master Ambiguity List, and
submit it to Steve. Just post your pet ambuiguities to the list, and I'll
compile them for submission. These will be the things we will want
explicitly clarified in 5th.

Remember, none of this should have an impact on our ability to make house
rules. However, we'll at least have a common framework for reference when
sharing characters, for example--without having to state our 20 stances on
ambiguous issues that led to the character design.

Starting points:

- The Great Linked Debate.
- Does damage carry over in multiform?
- Does "Usable Against Others" imply that you can't use the power on
yourself?

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 13:25:54 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
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Subject: Re: Why not official answers?
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On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:

> At 08:46 AM 3/17/1998 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
> >Seeing some of the rules questions and disputes that have been going on
> >on this list for many years, I bring myself to ask:
> >
> >Why doesn't HERO Games give us the official answers to these questions?
> >Why let us, and the rules, languish in hazy imperspicuity? HERO has a
> >presence on this list, but the answers are not forthcoming. Does anyone
> >know why?
>
> It's because the people on the list that we *think* are the Hero Guys
> are really spies from Steve Jackson Games, sent to find out what we
> think is so cool about the Hero System so he can crib it for GURPS 3rd
> Edition. ;-]

You mean Fourth Edition... ;)

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 11:31:50 -0800
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com>
Subject: Re: Hero Plus opinions?
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At 02:05 PM 3/17/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Dataweaver wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>>
>> > I don't care much for Hero Plus, as I prefer the feel of a book. And, as
>> > someone once said, you can't take your computer into the bathroom.
>> >
>> > Now, if hero Plus was in html instead of Adobe Acrobat, I'd like it a lot
>> > better. It would read faster,load faster and probably take up less
space.
>>
>> But it wouldn't print as well.
>
>Maybe, maybe not. I do know if it was in HTML, I could edit the file in
>order to print just what I want, instead of trying to guess.

Has anyone seen a copy fothe CD-Rom version of the Earthdawn rules FASA has
been giving away? The whole rule book seems to be in HTML format,
hyperlinked, with a search function. I almost wish I played Earthdawn, the
CD is that nice. I wish there was a version of the HSR with similar
functionality. It's a great tool, but obviously it would be difficult to
protect from software piracy.

I'd love to see GRG work out a way to give a CD with each 5th Edition book.
But without being able to protect the work from being coppied, I don't see
it being practical.

The CD can be found in issues of Inquest and Shadis Magazines, give it a
look even if you don't play Earthdawn, its a very interesting concept.

-Nic

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 13:34:17 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: The Great Multiform Debate
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On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 10:00 AM 3/17/1998 -0600, Sakura wrote:
> >
> >I'd be inclined to let it come down to SFX. If it's the same body, then
> >there's damage carryover - but healing one body heals the other. If there
> >are two different bodies, well, the next time Captain Changeling appears,
> >he's still going to be in bad shape, because that body has been in 'cold
> >storage' snce the character transformed back.
>
> Do you think these two ways of handling it are balanced?

Well, I'm not sure. The games I've been in haven't had a lot of Multiforms
- my group in college tended to avoid them for some reason - so I'm not
really sure how often it would come up.

Another option is 'proportional damage' - If you lose 50% of your BODY as
a hero, when you change back you have still lost 50% of your body. This
is perhaps better than the 'Oh, no, if I transform out of my super form,
I'll /die/' aspect.

I guess I'm saying that I'm not sure it'd come up enough to be worth an
advantage or a limitation either way.

J

"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 13:41:45 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Hero Plus opinions?
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On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote:

> I don't care much for Hero Plus, as I prefer the feel of a book. And, as
> someone once said, you can't take your computer into the bathroom.
>
> Now, if hero Plus was in html instead of Adobe Acrobat, I'd like it a lot
> better. It would read faster,load faster and probably take up less space.

Yes! Haters of Acrobat, Unite!

My Hero+ experience was absolutely infuriating. I got 3 Hero+ products
from my local store: the UMA, TUM, and TUSM. After struggling with Adobe's
pathetic web site to get a copy of the reader for an hour, I finally got
to viwe the documents. They're not that easy to print, since Adobe thinks
they own all print protocols. Printers running out of memory 50 pages in.
Poor graphics quality. Black lines where reverse text should be. Greeked
out fonts. Misaligned text. Wrong font choices. These were the problems I
encountered trying to print the files over the next TWO DAYS.

Finally, I went to Kinko's to print on a Docutech. This was not easy. The
simple request to "make a manual out of this disk" didn't seem to be on
their menu. Only my 15- Computer Programming skill allowed me to hack
through Kinko's system and give them the *latest* copy of Acrobat, which
these PDF files seem to need. Then, I had to personally route them off to
their Docutech, which of course was going to cost handsomely. I checked
and double-checked all of my settings. In the end, after spending my WHOLE
SATURDAY at Kinko's, I had three nicely-bound rulebooks on decent-quality
paper, and some color printouts of the front pages. Happy at last, I went
home only to find that the dithering on "photographic" graphics looks like
it came out at 50 DPI. 3 days, 500 gray hairs, and $100 later, I didn't
care anymore.

It's not HERO's fault. But PDF files suck. No, they don't. They blow. They
blow chunks. Huge chunks. Chunks of malformed attempts at manual pages.
Chunks of memory all over the place as it unceremoniously crashes when
viewing documents. Chunks of your brain all over the place as you
gradually lose your sanity.

HERO should try to find an alternative file format. *I* certainly won't be
buying another HERO+ product until then. Hell, I'd be happier with
Microsoft Word. They have a free viewer too.

Bob, you might suggest it to your publisher.


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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:42:13 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Hexes (stretching)
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If two players are in melee combat, are they in the same hex or in adjacent
hexes? Can you punch somebody in an adjacent hex, or do you need to move
into their hex? We have always played that there is one character per hex,
so melee happens across hex boundaries.

As a related question, if I buy 1" stretching, does this mean I can punch
somebody two hexes away, or just in the adjacent hex?

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 13:46:55 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: Countering increased drain times
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On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Dave Mattingly wrote:

> Bob G suggests:
> >regenerating any Character Points lost to Adjustment Powers
> >1 character point per Turn for 2 points.
>
> So you're saying that if I spend two points, and wait a turn, I'll get 1
> point of char back? Why not just buy 1 point of Power Def and not lose
> the char in the first place?

Well, you could do the Nasty Evil Munchkin thang and buy 1 pip of Aid, 0
end, persistent, always on, only up to level of original characteristics.
Buy that for whatever stat or stats the villain can regenerate.

As for Dave's comment, well, all I can say is:

Regen: Pay 10 points, wait 1 turn, get 1 body back.

Armor + Power Defense: Pay 4 points to not lose that body from physical,
energy, drain or transfer.

Regen has always been more expensive than armor.

It's also easier to come up with SFX that would let you 'regenerate' a
lowered stat than it is to come up with SFX for power defense that would
logically protect you from all the possibilities of drain/transfer...

J

"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 13:52:25 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
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On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Chris Lynch wrote:

> David Stallard wrote:
> >
> > One of my players created a martial artist this weekend, and I'm
> > somewhat concerned that the character doesn't have enough options to
> > keep it interesting. Let me know what you think. The character has 5
> > or 6 martial maneuvers, most of which have a focus: Bo staff (is a
> > focus the right way to do this, or is it better as a limited power
> > "only with bo staff"?

Neither; just change the weapon group from "unarmed" to "staff".

> > The only example I could find was The Whip(4E)/Scourge(C:NM)). He has
> > two that don't require the staff, but I think they are defensive
> > (Dodge is one, I can't remember the other).

Dodge isn't a problem; there are several examples of Martial Atrs that use
a weapon element instead of unarmed combat, yet have Dadge included in
them. From the real-world equievelents that they attempt to model, I
gather that Dodge is exempt from the weapon element restrictions...

> > Now, this character is also surrounded by a mystic fire (damage
> > shield). He can project this mystic fire to surround anything he is
> > holding (thus, his staff could also do damage from the damage
> > shield...we bought this as a 2nd damage shield with UAO, only vs
> > handheld objects...sound right?).

I'd buy it as Multipower with two slots (one is the Damage Shield, the
other is a No-Range EB).

> > Without going into skills or anything, this is essentially the entire
> > character. He has no resistant defense...should I be concerned about
> > this? Actually, the whole party (2 PCs) has no resistant defense...
> > I'm concerned about it, and hopefully they will be too after I show
> > them what a blade or a bullet can do...

It depends on how much combat you intend to throw at them, and what type.
You may want to consider modifying your campaign to more of a "Chambara"
style, where everyone uses martial arts and the most deadly weapon around
is the human fist (i.e., if you think that bullets or blades would hurt
the campaign, don't use bullets or blades...)

> > they both usually play characters with force fields or armor or
> > something else that gives them a significant amount of rPD/rED.
>
> Having read this, I have to wonder where the rest of his points have
> gone?
> I would have to presume that, with him being a martial artist, he has
> spent a lot of points of DEX,CV and SPD. This might go a fair way to
> countering his lack of resistant defences. Most martial artists in
> fiction rarely actually wear any armour (probably because it would
> hamper thier agility) but rely on dodges, blocks and deflections. The
> one thing that I might think is limiting about the character is all he
> really has are combat powers.

>From what I understand, the skills that were so quickly glossed over above
are actually a much larger chunk of the character than was implied...

> I have a player who is what you might call a "min-max" master. Maximum
> combat power, minimum use in noncombat situations. This character seems
> to be following the same philosophy.

Not neccessarily; it would help to know what skills the player selected.

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Countering increased drain times
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>>>>> "RH" == Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> writes:

RH> I was thinking about a character who recovers from adverse
RH> effects very quickly to the extent that within a few seconds he would
RH> be just about as good as new.

Try using Regeneration.

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 11:55:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Daniel R Palacio <dandan@cats.ucsc.edu>
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Subject: Re: Disadvantages
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On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

Let me guess...Exterminators is in "Enemies: Target
> Earth" or whatever it's called

Close... Alien Enemies.

and, uh, I don't know where Cy-Force would be found.

Hi-Tech Enemies. My favorite team from one of my favorite
supplements (Only Zodiac Conspiracy and Strike Force rate higher).

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Damage Shield
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>>>>> "DS" == David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> writes:

DS> Why doesn't damage shield include outgoing attacks as well as incoming
DS> attacks? Just to keep the power in check?

Mostly, yes. There is a fundamental concept in the game mechanics, that
there are no "absolute" attacks or defenses. Another is that you cannot do
damage while using a defensive maneuver, such as Block. Damage Shield in
the 4th edition was ammended to this effect.

That leaves "strike" maneuvers, which can be done with HA or no-range EB,
depending on the SFX.

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 11:58:25 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Why not official answers?
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At 10:27 AM 3/17/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 08:46 AM 3/17/1998 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>>Seeing some of the rules questions and disputes that have been going on on
>>this list for many years, I bring myself to ask:
>>
>>Why doesn't HERO Games give us the official answers to these questions?
>>Why let us, and the rules, languish in hazy imperspicuity? HERO has a
>>presence on this list, but the answers are not forthcoming. Does anyone
>>know why?
>
> It's because the people on the list that we *think* are the Hero Guys
>are really spies from Steve Jackson Games, sent to find out what we think
>is so cool about the Hero System so he can crib it for GURPS 3rd Edition.
;-]
>
METASYSTEM.
METASYSTEM.
METASYSTEM.
METASYSTEM.
METASYSTEM.
METASYSTEM.

You listening, Dataweaver? :)

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 12:00:12 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: huge dudes with capes - example
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At 06:16 PM 3/17/98 +0000, Chris Lynch wrote:
>A really good example of what might happen to a REAL world if people
>started showing up with paranormal abilities is Alan Moore's Watchmen.
>This book shows how much effect just one 3500 point level character
>could have on the world in general; politically, socially, economically
>etc.
>
Well, that's part of it there -- there was just one.

I think it's assumed that in most comic book universes,supers "cancel out"
-- that is, they spend so much time fighting each other that the rest of
the world moves merrily along.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Hero Plus opinions?
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>>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes:

MS> I don't care much for Hero Plus, as I prefer the feel of a book. And,
MS> as someone once said, you can't take your computer into the bathroom.

Okay, while I can take my Newton with me into the bathroom, nothing in the
world beats a DTF[1] document.

[1] Dead Tree Format

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:02:06 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Hexes (stretching)
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On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> If two players are in melee combat, are they in the same hex or in adjacent
> hexes? Can you punch somebody in an adjacent hex, or do you need to move
> into their hex? We have always played that there is one character per hex,
> so melee happens across hex boundaries.

We play the same way, but recently I had a change of heart, ruling that
melee attacks happen within the same hex.

> As a related question, if I buy 1" stretching, does this mean I can punch
> somebody two hexes away, or just in the adjacent hex?

By default I think it means 2" away, although house rules are certainly
possible. Long weapons, like polearms, could have some streching "built
in." Perhaps this is something for our ambiguity list?

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: The Great Multiform Debate
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>>>>> "MS" == Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net> writes:

MS> However, the rules are very unclear on this, and I don't believe that
MS> any conclusions can be drawn from their omission.

The omission is deliberate. It requires the GM to tailor Multiform for his
particular campaign, because all, nothing, and proportional translation of
damage are equally valid interpretations.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Why not official answers?
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>>>>> "BW" == Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes:

BW> Then perhaps they should be here to say that.

One assumes that Hero assumes that GM's have enough of a clue to figure
that out for themselves.

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From: SteveL1979 <SteveL1979@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 15:18:40 EST
Subject: Re: Master Ambiguity List
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In a message dated 98-03-17 14:28:06 EST, chip@owlnet.rice.edu writes:

<< But if you're like me, you probably can't recall
all at once what those ambiguities are. But if we all put our heads
together, we should be able to produce the Master Ambiguity List, and
submit it to Steve. Just post your pet ambuiguities to the list, and I'll
compile them for submission. These will be the things we will want
explicitly clarified in 5th. >>

I'd love to have such a list; thanx for putting forward the idea and
volunteering to compile it, Darien.
To make it of the most use to me, I'd need to have the "completed" (or as
reasonably complete as the HML is willing to make it) list by April 1, which
is more or less when I hope to begin working on 5th Ed. Having one master
list would save me having to make multiple print-outs and try to keep them
organized.
Thanx again!

Steve Long

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Hexes (stretching)
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>>>>> "DS" == David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> writes:

DS> If two players are in melee combat, are they in the same hex or in
DS> adjacent hexes? Can you punch somebody in an adjacent hex, or do you
DS> need to move into their hex? We have always played that there is one
DS> character per hex, so melee happens across hex boundaries.

Melee range is "1 hex", and what as two characters cannot normally occupy
the same hex, that means you can hit anyone in a hex adjacent to yours.
That is, you can hit anyone in the six hexes around the one in which you
are standing. A "no range" attack has the same potential targets.

DS> As a related question, if I buy 1" stretching, does this mean I can punch
DS> somebody two hexes away, or just in the adjacent hex?

1" of stretching adds 1 inch to the basic 1" you already have, so you can
hit anyone in the ring of hexes around the ring of 6 hexes around the one
in which you stand.

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 15:35:04 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Multiple Personalities
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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More accurately, the topic should probably be "shared personalities".

Anyway, the "limited" martial artist that has been the topic of a lot of
recent message on this list is undergoing some changes. Now, instead of a
multiform between a normal and an ancient Japanese hero, these two
personalities are going to exist at the same time. Thus, there isn't a
"normal"...the normal just picked up all the skills and powers of the hero.
However, there are going to be two people in his head. If you've ever
read Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series, this would be similar to the
way Rand or Mat can remember battles and other events that occurred
generations before they were born. If I remember correctly, I think DC's
hero Firestorm has two personalities existing at the same time, but I've
only read a few issues so I'm not sure anymore.

How would you implement this? Is it all done through pysch lims or other
disadvantages? The character would need various KS to show that he knows
about ancient culture, ancient heroes and villains, and so forth....

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 12:38:05 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: Countering increased drain times
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At 10:52 AM 3/17/1998 -0800, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>Bob G suggests:
>>regenerating any Character Points lost to Adjustment Powers
>>1 character point per Turn for 2 points.
>
>So you're saying that if I spend two points, and wait a turn, I'll get 1
>point of char back? Why not just buy 1 point of Power Def and not lose
>the char in the first place?

Good point. (As was probably obvious, I wasn't comparing against Power
Defense; just Regeneration.)
On the other hand, after you spend the two points, you wait a Turn to
get 1 point of char back; then wait another Turn and get another point
back; then wait another Turn and get another point back; then wait another
Turn and get another point back; and so forth. Those two points spent on
Power Defense will only work on two points per attack.

>It's not like normal Regeneration that heals Body, since there are tons
>of ways to do Body damage that it's very difficult to protect against
>them all. To drain/suppress/dispel a char, Power Def is it. I'd rather
>buy 10 points of Power Def (or 12 with a "doesn't protect for the first
>phase" -1/4 lim) than 10 points of char regeneration.

Well, your decision. It's just on the table as an idea. (Though
remember, as I pointed out, that those 10 points of Power Defense will only
protect 10 points of any given attack.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 12:41:58 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: Disadvantages
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At 01:45 PM 3/17/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade
>> I'm also infamous for using "Automatic Hunters" for PCs in various
>situations. If I have a mutant, he's Hunted by Genocide. If I have an
>alien, he's Hunted by the Exterminators, and probably Watched by METE. If
>I have a cyborg, he's probably Hunted by Cy-Force. If I have a mentalist,
>he's Hunted by Headhunter. If I have a mentalist who's also a mutant, he's
>Hunted by PSI (in addition to Genocide and Headhunter). And so forth.<
>
>This is funny...even though I have quite a stack of Champions books (mostly
>4th Ed), I don't have source material for any of the groups you've
>mentioned. I'm familiar with Genocide and METE by word-of-mouth, and PSI
>sounds familiar too, but I've never heard of Exterminators, Headhunter, or
>Cy-Force. -grin- Let me guess...Exterminators is in "Enemies: Target
>Earth" or whatever it's called, Headhunter is in The Ultimate Mentalist or
>Mind Games, and, uh, I don't know where Cy-Force would be found.

The most recent entries for these groups are as follows:

Genocide: The Mutant File
METE: Alien Enemies
PSI: Mind Games
The Exterminators: Alien Enemies
Headhunter: The Ultimate Mentalist
Cy-Force: High-Tech Enemies

Though Scott Heine is allegedly working on "Champions By the Bay" to
update PSI (as well as the Protectors and other creations of his), and I
gather Amy Crittenden is trying to do a reworking of Genocide.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 20:44:07
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: [Stormtroopers (was Re: Stupid Jedi Tricks)]
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Daniel Pawtowski wrote:
> >
> > Therein lies the problem. Everybody in Star Wars uses blasters. Rat's-ass
> > backwater Tattoine, everybody used blasters. Just once I'd have like to have
> > seen a Stormtrooper take a blaster shot, maybe get knocked over, and get
> > back up and keep shooting (or maybe later say "Good thing I'm wearing body
> > armor...").
> >
>
> If you look very carefully at the opening battle of Star Wars, right after
> they blow the hatch and rush into Leia's ship, you can see Rebel blaster
> shots _are_ bouncing off the Stromtrooper armor. It's hard to notice
> because the actors in question are not reacting the the shots at all,
> they were apparently told to just walk in and attack, and the SFX guys
> added in little slivers of light later.
> Whih means we have armor that allows you to *completely* ignore blaster
> fire in one scene, which can be penetrated by spear-armed teddy bears
> in another scene.

I may be a bit slow to respond to this, because I lost the Internet for about a week (even this message is from the library). However, I have a solution.

Who manages to shoot Storm Troopers reliably, and what do they use?

Princess Leia, own blaster or Storm Trooper blaster.
Han Solo, same.
Landau, same.
Luke, Storm Trooper blaster or blaster from unknown source in later movies.
Chewbaca, own weapon.

Here's my theory, and it explains everything.

Everyone (except Chewy and the Ewoks) has blasters in Star Wars, but not everyone has the same _quality_ of blasters.

The main characters in the movie either used Storm Trooper blasters, which are high-power standard issue for Storm Troopers, and which are better than the standard, run of the mill blasters, or their own personal equipment. Everyone except Luke had a valid excuse to have a superior weapon. Leia was rich and a rebel. Han Solo was a gunslinger and successful smuggler. Chewy carried a large weapon that wasn't even a blaster, and which may have been unusable by a human. Even Landau was a rich man with a criminal background.

Luke, for his part, shot almost no one except with the Storm Trooper weapons.

So, what we have here is people with superior equipment who successfully shoot Storm Troopers, and people with normal equipment who can't. The only exceptions were the Ewoks, and they climbed on board the Troopers and pounded on them until they went down, hardly a sign of the inefficiency of the armor. A man with 12PD Hardened Armor, hit with a 1d6 HKA, on the head, over and over again, will go down.

Filksinger


____________________________________________________________________
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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 12:45:14 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: Disadvantages
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At 04:57 PM 3/17/1998 +0000, Chris Lynch wrote:
>I had a pretty good way of stiffling this straight away. I let them all
>max out the disads; taking ridiculous and even contradictory stuff then
>started the game with the getting caught up in a dime store robbery late
>at night. The GARDA (my version of the GUARD who have pinched their name
>from the Police Force of Southern Ireland (EIRE)) turned up and gassed
>them all. Because of all the stuff that had been going down that night,
>the cells were pretty full. The 3 players protested that "they were all
>heroes goddamn it!" so the GARDA chucked them all in one little cell.
>
>After about 3 minutes of idle conversation as the heros introduced
>themselves to each other there was a pictched melee between the players
>as they all contravened each others TOTAL PSYCH LIMS which spilled out
>into the GARDA
>barracks, releasing all the villians (super and otherwise) that had been
>captured that week. Now the players had a crime wave on thier hands, but
>were too busy kicking each others tails.

Now I'm having a giggling fit... and the really wild part of it all is,
I could really see some twisted comic-book writer actually deciding to
introduce his "hero" group this way!
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: traveler owned process doing -bs
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:48:34 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Why not official answers?
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On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Lizard wrote:
> At 10:27 AM 3/17/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >At 08:46 AM 3/17/1998 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
> >>Seeing some of the rules questions and disputes that have been going on on
> >>this list for many years, I bring myself to ask:
> >>
> >>Why doesn't HERO Games give us the official answers to these questions?
> >>Why let us, and the rules, languish in hazy imperspicuity? HERO has a
> >>presence on this list, but the answers are not forthcoming. Does anyone
> >>know why?
> >
> > It's because the people on the list that we *think* are the Hero Guys
> >are really spies from Steve Jackson Games, sent to find out what we think
> >is so cool about the Hero System so he can crib it for GURPS 3rd Edition.
> ;-]
> >
> METASYSTEM.
> METASYSTEM.
> METASYSTEM.
> METASYSTEM.
> METASYSTEM.
> METASYSTEM.
>
> You listening, Dataweaver? :)

Let me clear one thing up right now: I am _not_ a SJGames employee.

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 12:50:04 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: Hexes (stretching)
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At 02:42 PM 3/17/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>If two players are in melee combat, are they in the same hex or in adjacent
>hexes? Can you punch somebody in an adjacent hex, or do you need to move
>into their hex? We have always played that there is one character per hex,
>so melee happens across hex boundaries.

By my understanding, you're in an adjacent hex. If you were both in the
same hex, you'd be grappling.

>As a related question, if I buy 1" stretching, does this mean I can punch
>somebody two hexes away, or just in the adjacent hex?

By my estimate, two hexes away.
---
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X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:52:51 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Subject: Re: EC and VPP
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On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Dataweaver wrote:

<snip EPP stuff>

> Two things: first, the VPP Control Cost would _not_ get the normal -1/2L
> discount for being limited to a single special effect, helping somewhat to
> offset the added usefulness. Second, the improvised powers would be
> limited to a maximum of half the points of the weakest power in the EC
> aspect of the EPP.

Lessee...figure an average of 60 APs and (let's say) 4 slots in the EC...

Book Way:
EC Cost 30
4 60AP slots @30 each 120
VPP Pool Cost 30
VPP Control Cost 10
(assumes -1/2 limited sfx)

TOTAL 190

ECC Way:
EC/Pool Cost 30
4 60AP slots @30 each 120
VPP Control Cost 15

TOTAL 165

Hmmm...25 points is fairly significant. This is why I'd be inclined to
say that this isn't very balanced...

<snip 'power stunt' VPP>

> Two more modifiers to the pool ('powers must match the special effects of
> existing powers' and 'no skill roll is needed to modify the pool'), and

True, forgot those. Add 'em on - if all the supers are getting it, for
free, we don't have to worry about point cost. I'd only give -1/4 for
matching existing SFX because that has the potential for being very
broad...

> you might have something; except that it doesn't account for one-shot
> wonders (characters who use a particular power stunt once and then never
> again, such as Aquaman's use of his Fish Telepathy to paralyze the portion
> of a Pale Martian's brain that was descended from their ocean-going
> heritage...).

Sure it does - he paid 1 pt for the skill and used his levels to improve
his roll...made it...and then never used it again. It's not like he
/can't/ ever do it again, after all, and paying a couple of points to be
able to do something that useful (even if it's in /very/ limited
circumstances) isn't too much to ask...IMHO, of course.

One might consider basing the penalty to the skill roll on the Real Cost
rather than the Active Cost of the power. Then there'd be a significantly
lower amount of skill needed to do very limited things (Aquaman's trick
was probably Xd6 Mind Control, single command (-1/2), only vs. Pale
Martians (-2 because they're really rare compared to everyone else), etc,
making the total penalty to the skill roll a lot lower than if you based
it on EPS. It'd encourage players to take plenty of limitations like
Extra END and such on their 'power stunts' as well.

> > If they ever want to increase the power level beyond that of the pool, or
> > if they want to be able to do it without a skill roll, then they need to
> > buy it as a regular power. If they do that, I'd let them 'trade in' the
> > points they spent on that power stunt skill for appropriate other skill
> > levels.
>
> Unless, of course, they are simply increasing the power level, but still
> having to improvise it...

Well, one could 'push' the pool, of course. Unfortunately, it's not going
to add very much, because HERO pushes are fairly limited.

Hmm...heck, one could technically use the VPP as a sort of 'super-push' as
well - to add to existing powers. There are probably a lot of limitations
that you'd want to put on how it can be used, etc. - the spending
character points to buy the skill is basically in there so people don't
/constantly/ do that sort of thing - only when something important is at
stake (which is generally when that sort of thing happens in the comics
anyway).

"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 12:54:35 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
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At 01:52 PM 3/17/1998 -0600, Dataweaver wrote:
>> > Without going into skills or anything, this is essentially the entire
>> > character. He has no resistant defense...should I be concerned about
>> > this? Actually, the whole party (2 PCs) has no resistant defense...
>> > I'm concerned about it, and hopefully they will be too after I show
>> > them what a blade or a bullet can do...
>
>It depends on how much combat you intend to throw at them, and what type.
>You may want to consider modifying your campaign to more of a "Chambara"
>style, where everyone uses martial arts and the most deadly weapon around
>is the human fist (i.e., if you think that bullets or blades would hurt
>the campaign, don't use bullets or blades...)

Or pies and seltzer bottles. ;-]
---
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Disadvantages
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 12:59:06 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> This is funny...even though I have quite a stack of Champions books (mostly
> 4th Ed), I don't have source material for any of the groups you've
> mentioned. I'm familiar with Genocide and METE by word-of-mouth, and PSI=
> sounds familiar too, but I've never heard of Exterminators, Headhunter, or
> Cy-Force. -grin- Let me guess...Exterminators is in "Enemies: Target
> Earth" or whatever it's called, Headhunter is in The Ultimate Mentalist or
> Mind Games, and, uh, I don't know where Cy-Force would be found.
>
Exterminators, Headhunter, and Cy-Force are, I blelieve, local to
that particular game.
I know if I listed off the various groups of my own game, you
certainly wouldn't recognize any of them.

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 13:00:13 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: Why not official answers?
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 11:14 AM 3/17/1998 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>> something I really appreciate. Without an official rep, a mailing list is
>> just a bunch of people sitting around speculating about something. -grin=
>>
>> I should note that Hero's forum on CompuServe has an official rep. =
>> Unfortunately, that forum doesn't get very much traffic most of the
>> time.... There were busy spurts about a year ago and some of the
>> supplement authors were there as well, but after Fuzion was announced the=
>> forum seemed to die. I haven't checked it in a while, but maybe it's
>> active with Fuzion talk these days.
>
> Also, AOL, despite it's number of subscribers, is still only one
>single ISP with a single T1 to the internet...

Hey, don't knock it. So's Around the Klock. (Though it has a somewhat
smaller customer base....)

> This mailing list however is available to anyone with an email
>address, regardless of who they pay to get it from. So it gives a much
>larger audience to a potential company net rep.

Or even if they (the email subscribers) don't pay at all, but use one of
the various "free email address" services/bulletin boards out there.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:03:57 -0500
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Multiple Personalities
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> wrote:

>>>>>>>>>

More accurately, the topic should probably be "shared personalities".

Anyway, the "limited" martial artist that has been the topic of a lot of
recent message on this list is undergoing some changes. Now, instead of =
a
multiform between a normal and an ancient Japanese hero, these two
personalities are going to exist at the same time. Thus, there isn't a
"normal"...the normal just picked up all the skills and powers of the her=
o.
However, there are going to be two people in his head. If you've ever
read Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series, this would be similar to the=

way Rand or Mat can remember battles and other events that occurred
generations before they were born. If I remember correctly, I think DC's=

hero Firestorm has two personalities existing at the same time, but I've
only read a few issues so I'm not sure anymore.

How would you implement this? Is it all done through pysch lims or other=

disadvantages? The character would need various KS to show that he knows=

about ancient culture, ancient heroes and villains, and so forth....
<<<<<<


I don't know all your references (and Firestorm has worked a
little differently at different times), so I'm not sure exactly
how you want this character to work. Significant questions would
be:

Is one personality run by the player, and another an NPC?

Does one personality have exclusive control of the body? Do the
personalities alternate in control? Do they somehow share
control at the same time?

Is it possible for one personality to still be functional while
the other is asleep, unconscious, mind-controlled, or otherwise
disabled?

Without knowing the answers to these questions, I'll venture to
suggest you might try building the second personality as an
Artificial Intelligence as per the Computer rules.

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 13:17:11 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: Why not official answers?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 03:06 PM 3/17/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>BW> Then perhaps they should be here to say that.
>
>One assumes that Hero assumes that GM's have enough of a clue to figure
>that out for themselves.

Or enough of a clue to figure out something else -- just, we don't know,
and can't know for sure, what it is.
What's obvious to one person isn't so obvious to another. What's
obvious to one person can also be flat-out *wrong.* That's why every
writing text I've ever seen advises against labeling something as "obvious"
or with any similar word, because if it's not obvious to the reader or if
the reader understands and believes otherwise then said reader will feel
belittled.
That's why so many of the laws in this country take ten pages to spell
out what, to most of us, would be worked out in three paragraphs. You have
to define every word, and sometimes even define the words in the
definitions. You have to spell out every regulation to its fullest extent.
The broader the law is, the more specific you have to be. (Of course, if
you're dealing with the Federal government, you probably also have a number
of amendments to give special exemptions, and other amendments that have a
dubious connection with the rest of the bill -- but I'm digressing here.)
Without that specification and detail, you could ask ten Republicans and
ten Democrats what the law means and how it should be applied, and you'd
get thirty different answers.
Now, we don't need that much detail with the Hero System rules, if only
because the stakes are much lower. But it will be helpful if Hero5 not
only gives the rules but explains them in detail, clarifies past
misunderstandings, gives the reasons behind certain apparently ambiguous
rules, and gives examples of how they should -- and, in some cases at
least, shouldn't -- be applied.
With a former attorney on the job, I think we can expect that.
Also, I hopefully don't have to spell out (heh) the Felix Unger
interpretation of the word "ASSUME."
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 13:18:42 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: Hero Plus opinions?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 02:05 PM 3/17/1998 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>> > Now, if hero Plus was in html instead of Adobe Acrobat, I'd like it a lot
>> > better. It would read faster,load faster and probably take up less
space.
>>
>> But it wouldn't print as well.
>
>Maybe, maybe not. I do know if it was in HTML, I could edit the file in
>order to print just what I want, instead of trying to guess.

Funny; I have the reverse problem. In Acrobat I can specify which pages
I want, while in HTML I have to guess what page(s) something's on.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 15:21:40 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Master Ambiguity List
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org


> Starting points:
>
> - The Great Linked Debate.

Definately.

> - Does damage carry over in multiform?

A problem to very few. Most seem willing to allow this to be
defined by SFX.

> - Does "Usable Against Others" imply that you can't use the power on
> yourself?

This is more of a case of UAO/UBO needing greater clarification in
general.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 13:22:51 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: Hero Plus opinions?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 01:41 PM 3/17/1998 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>Yes! Haters of Acrobat, Unite!
>
>My Hero+ experience was absolutely infuriating. I got 3 Hero+ products
>from my local store: the UMA, TUM, and TUSM. After struggling with Adobe's
>pathetic web site to get a copy of the reader for an hour, I finally got
>to viwe the documents. They're not that easy to print, since Adobe thinks
>they own all print protocols. Printers running out of memory 50 pages in.
>Poor graphics quality. Black lines where reverse text should be. Greeked
>out fonts. Misaligned text. Wrong font choices. These were the problems I
>encountered trying to print the files over the next TWO DAYS.
>
>Finally, I went to Kinko's to print on a Docutech. This was not easy. The
>simple request to "make a manual out of this disk" didn't seem to be on
>their menu. Only my 15- Computer Programming skill allowed me to hack
>through Kinko's system and give them the *latest* copy of Acrobat, which
>these PDF files seem to need. Then, I had to personally route them off to
>their Docutech, which of course was going to cost handsomely. I checked
>and double-checked all of my settings. In the end, after spending my WHOLE
>SATURDAY at Kinko's, I had three nicely-bound rulebooks on decent-quality
>paper, and some color printouts of the front pages. Happy at last, I went
>home only to find that the dithering on "photographic" graphics looks like
>it came out at 50 DPI. 3 days, 500 gray hairs, and $100 later, I didn't
>care anymore.
>
>It's not HERO's fault. But PDF files suck. No, they don't. They blow. They
>blow chunks. Huge chunks. Chunks of malformed attempts at manual pages.
>Chunks of memory all over the place as it unceremoniously crashes when
>viewing documents. Chunks of your brain all over the place as you
>gradually lose your sanity.

That's really strange. I've purchased TUSM, and I've experienced no
problems. I also downloaded Acrobat off Adobe's website, and had a few
false starts (probably due to traffic) but got it OK.
Of course, I haven't tried to print out huge chunks of the book yet, and
my printer's paper capacity is under 50 pages, so I don't know if I'd hit a
memory problem at that point or not. I've printed out a few bits of only a
couple of pages at a time (like the Thaumaturgy section).
I may or may not try to get the whole thing done at Kinko's. (The folks
at the Corvallis branch seem to be a lot more "with-it" than ones I've run
into at other locations.)

>HERO should try to find an alternative file format. *I* certainly won't be
>buying another HERO+ product until then. Hell, I'd be happier with
>Microsoft Word. They have a free viewer too.
>
>Bob, you might suggest it to your publisher.

I'm afraid I have no clout in that respect.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 13:34:33 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: C:NM setting in 4E?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>I have played, and loved, Hero for years for it's flexibility. But I was
>always playing with other "Hero-Players". Now we have all moved to
>different corners of the world (different universities) and I have a new
>group none of whom have ever played Hero.
>
>I started up a Hero campaign (naturally, I mean.. these poor misguided
>fools.. what had they been playing in the meantime??). This was the
>first time I realised how impenetrable the rules of Hero can be to
>"outsiders". I quickly saw the game collapsing, and so I kept
>simplifying the rules and watering stuff down until everyone at least
>had the basics down.

Ummmm Impenetrable? Ive taught over a dozen people to play hero and they
pick it up in a matter of hours, getting the combat quickly and character
building is a matter of them describing what you want. Perhaps you
innundated them too quickly? Any game system is incomprehensible taken as a
whole, but Hero is rather simple... and RPG players are on the whole more
intelligent and creative than the general populace.

----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 17:12:06 EST
Subject: Re: Secret ID/Public ID
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

All of my recent replies to messages on this list were sent only to the
original poster. It seems I forgot that the list doesn't generate an automatic
"To" address back to the list, only to the original poster. So I'll be
resending these messages., Some of the subject lines may differ.

<< Two Secret ID's ??? >>

Sure. *IF* the non-superheroic ID is one that, if revealed, would cause lots
of problems.

<< Is that legal ?? >>

If your GM won't let you take two ecret IDs, ask him if you can have a 15
Pt. "Secret." ;)

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 17:14:59 EST
Subject: Re: Why not official answers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

I'm compiling my many responses to this thread into fewer messages. This is
the first compilation...

<< And even then, why not compile all our rules questions and send them to
HERO to get the answers? >>

Everyone interested in having their opinions heard and officially considered
for 5th Edition hero System should check out the Hero Games web site and fill
out the Hero Fan Questionaire.

<< Hero is not really on this list. They are on the AOL folder, but seem to
ignore this list except to make announcements. >>

Don't assume... ;) Methinks your cries are heard. I'm sure Hero Games
(like me) can't read every single post to the list, but if you put "Question
for Hero Games" in the subject, my guess is you'd get a reply.

<< But like I said in the other message on this topic, I think Hero is all
fired up for Fuzion and C:NM, and 4E is just an old product that needs to be
maintained. >>

I challenge you to put your proverbial money where your proverbial mouth is,
then. ;) San Angelo: City of Heroes is the biggest 4th Ed Champions product to
be released in the better part of two years. There is a free download of the
first two chapters; there is an interview with me coming up in the next
Herozine; we've released some of the interior artwork (on Theala's site, to
Herozine, on our web page, etc.), and both the publisher (me) and the author
(Pat) are on this list.

And yet no one has asked us much about it. :)

<< They'd sweep Hero under the carpet and forget it was ever made if they felt
the fans would let them. But I think somebody there finally realized that
doing so could even hurt Fuzion by way of bad reputation for a small company.
>>

Look, everyone. Hero Games loves the Hero System, we love the Hero System
and you guys love the Hero System. As long as there is demand for it and that
demand translates into sales, there will be continued release of Hero System
products. Period. Nobody is sweeping anything under the run for the sake of
getting rid of it. RTG is the publisher of Hero Fuzion products. Hero produces
4th Ed books on disk (in PDF). We (GRG) are the publisher of 4th Ed paper
books. We don't have the same resources that RTG does, so our releases are
slower.

I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but San Angelo is almost
out, and 5th Ed is in the works. I'm really interested to hear what you folks
think of San Angelo. The collective response by Hero fans will have an impact
on what kind of products we produce in the future.

<< The company should be giving guidelines, saying "If I were GMing your
group, I
would...." That way, it still feels like a suggestion or a house rule, but
you can have some confidence in it since it comes from an "official" source.
>>

This is a viewpoint oft expressed by fans. I tend to agree with it.

<< I would vastly prefer a game company who is very strict in issuing
clarifications and new rulings than having an apathetic company who basically
doesn't care about the shortcomings and unclear passages in their product, >>

Well, in fairness, Hero is trying to address many of the unclear rules with
5th Ed. That is where most of the work lies, IMO. Keep in mind that many
powers won't change dramatically (if at all), but they will be written more
concisely, lowering the amount of debate.

Your opinions are all valid, but try to bear in mind that a lot of the
opinions expressed here amount to basically "house rules," and are not the
direction that many of the published rules will take. Be that as it may, your
comments are more than welcomed. In fact, they've been *requested* via the
Hero questionnaire.

<< So they've not only lacked a solid net presence, they've typically
alienated the online crowd.>>

If this is true, it is not by intent, I assure you. But many of the things
that Hero fans on this list want to see done amount to complete changes in the
system. The system itself is not broken, and is designed to allow for great
variance in style of play and use of mechanics.

E.g., What exactly is line of sight? Exactly what it says. It refers to a
*physical* line of sight, and does not include Clairsentience, Mind Link, Mind
Scan or Telepathy. In my games, however, I allow LOS to include most of those
things because I feel they are keeping with the spirit of Mentalists and
Mental Powers.

Would I suggest that they rewrite the rules to reflect my opinion? No. Hero
defined LOS in print and that is the "official" ruling, though I am free to
change it in my game if I so choose (and I do).

More ramblings from a man with way too much to do and way too little time to
do them. :D

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 17:16:25 EST
Subject: Re; Why not official answers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

This is the second compilation...

<< Not that it'd make all that much difference if we did get concrete
"official" responses to our debates. >>

It's very difficult for busy company reps to follow all the threads and
posts to this (or any) list. I kill-file many, many posts if I have determined
that the thread is not something that:

1) Is directed to me (asks me a direct question, etc.)
2) doesn't relate to what I'm surrently working on (San Angelo, Sengoku, et
al)
3) has gone off on a tangent unrelated to the original post
4) involves flaming or debate which cannot be resolved with a single
official ruling (which would have to come from Hero anyway)

That's just a general guideline. I value everyone's opinions on issues. I
simply don't have the time to read every single message trying to dig up
specific issues or questions to address. I hope no one here takes offense to
that.

<< The fact that Steve Long and Mark Arsenault are at least watching the list,
in spite of their limited personal time schedules, is very much to their
credit. >>

Thank you, Bob. I appreciate the sentiment.

<< Well, I have done that and still gotten a less than concrete answer. >>

So the true complaint is actually that you don't get the response you'd like
rather than not getting a response at all?

I can understand the frustration among list subscribers, though. Why doesn't
someone post a new message with "Hero Games, help us!" or something similar in
the subject, your question in the body, and see what kind of response you get?
;)

<< If you meet all these people at Cons; they seem to be the most amiable
there
as well. >>

Hey, we're amiable at the office, too! <LOL>

Or do you mean we're among the friendlier folks at the con? Either way is
okay. :)

Off topic: I've been involved in a San Angelo-based game with Pat Sweeney
(the illustrious author, whose work rivals some of the best RPG writers, IMO)
and it's been a blast! We're using a mix of "official" material from the book
and "unofficial" stuff as well (which may make it into a future supplement).

Geoff Berman (Corporations, Crime & Crime Again) is also playing, along with
a good frined of mine (Matt) and a good friend of Pat's (Rex). Very cool
group.

It really helps to playtest some of the villains before we publish them, you
know? I mean, what looks good on paper sometimes becomes street pizza in
actual play. <LOL>

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 17:22:27 EST
Subject: Re: Hexes (stretching)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

<< If two players are in melee combat, are they in the same hex or in adjacent
hexes? >>

That depends. Two characters *can* occupy the same hex, though it's not
necessary for HTH combat.

<< Can you punch somebody in an adjacent hex, or do you need to move
into their hex? >>

You can punch into an adjacent hex.

<< As a related question, if I buy 1" stretching, does this mean I can punch
somebody two hexes away, or just in the adjacent hex? >>

Two hexes away.

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 17:23:22 EST
Subject: Earthdawn CD
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

<< The CD can be found in issues of Inquest and Shadis Magazines, give it a
look even if you don't play Earthdawn, its a very interesting concept. >>

Indeed it is!

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 17:35:23 EST
Subject: Re: Why no official answers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

<< But I think it would be a benefit to all if Hero were on the mailing list
guiding those house rules. If a house rule shows up that goes in a different
direction than the published rules, and Hero does not make a statement to that
effect, then other house rules can build on the first and we deviate further
and further from Hero's desired direction. >>

And...? House rules are just that. Having a published or "official" answer
does not make house rules any less viable, original, entertaining or "valid."
I completely diagree that Hero Games should be "guiding" any house rules at
all. Now, if you wanted them here to comment on published rules and their
intent (which is what I think you meant), then that's fine. But as a player, I
couldn't take any publisher seriously who tried to tell me what I could and
could not do with house rules. ;)

<< I do plan to send in a questionnaire for 5th edition, by the way (I know my
time is running out...). >>

And that is something that Hero will appreciate and you will never regret.
;)

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:54:34 +0000
Subject: Sean Fannon
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 9

Anyone have a current email address for Sean Fannon? I want to email
a couple of questions to him.

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 17:03:50 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Disadvantages
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org


> Exterminators, Headhunter, and Cy-Force are, I blelieve, local to
> that particular game.

Oh, not quite. Exterminators is the only one I'm not sure on, but
I think it is from Alien Enemies. Headhunter is from The Ultimate
Mentalist and Cy-Force is from High Tech Enemies.

> I know if I listed off the various groups of my own game, you
> certainly wouldn't recognize any of them.

Probably not. Do you recognize Skull, Regal, I.C.E., CAM, or The
Muscle Crew?


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 17:05:30 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Hero Plus opinions?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org


> Funny; I have the reverse problem. In Acrobat I can specify which pages
> I want, while in HTML I have to guess what page(s) something's on.

I've noted the same. I've personally had no real problems with
the Acrobat format. It does a great job at cross-platform consistancy.
It is also hard to take the file and pirate it into some other file.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 17:06:43 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Why not official answers?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org


> > This mailing list however is available to anyone with an email
> >address, regardless of who they pay to get it from. So it gives a much
> >larger audience to a potential company net rep.
>
> Or even if they (the email subscribers) don't pay at all, but use one of
> the various "free email address" services/bulletin boards out there.

Or through their place of employment or their institution of
learning.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 17:10:06 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Why not official answers
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That's all fine and dandy. But, the important question . . .

When, exactly, will we be able to purchase San Angelo in stores?

The date supposedly was March, but the month is half gone. Will
we see it this month?




-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 18:13:39 EST
Subject: Re: Why not official answers
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<< When, exactly, will we be able to purchase San Angelo in stores? The date
supposedly was March, but the month is half gone. Will we see it this month?>>

I do not have an exact street date. The book is tentatively scheduled to go
to print at teh end of this month. There have been several delays and we're
working as quickly as we can on this. Unfortunately you won't see SA in stores
until next month at the earliest.

Mark @ GRG

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 17:24:52 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
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Subject: Re: EC and VPP
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On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Sakura wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Dataweaver wrote:
>
> <snip 'power stunt' VPP>
>
> > Two more modifiers to the pool ('powers must match the special effects of
> > existing powers' and 'no skill roll is needed to modify the pool'), and
>
> True, forgot those. Add 'em on - if all the supers are getting it, for
> free, we don't have to worry about point cost. I'd only give -1/4 for
> matching existing SFX because that has the potential for being very
> broad...

OTOH, you could just let the characters buy it or not, or buy varying
amounts of it, depending on how versatile they envision their characters
being...

> One might consider basing the penalty to the skill roll on the Real Cost
> rather than the Active Cost of the power. Then there'd be a significantly
> lower amount of skill needed to do very limited things (Aquaman's trick
> was probably Xd6 Mind Control, single command (-1/2), only vs. Pale
> Martians (-2 because they're really rare compared to everyone else), etc,
> making the total penalty to the skill roll a lot lower than if you based
> it on EPS. It'd encourage players to take plenty of limitations like
> Extra END and such on their 'power stunts' as well.

Actually, it seemed to be more along the lines of single command (-1/2),
only vs. creatures with marine ancestry (which <gasp> includes Pale
Martians!) ...

> > > If they ever want to increase the power level beyond that of the pool, or
> > > if they want to be able to do it without a skill roll, then they need to
> > > buy it as a regular power. If they do that, I'd let them 'trade in' the
> > > points they spent on that power stunt skill for appropriate other skill
> > > levels.
> >
> > Unless, of course, they are simply increasing the power level, but still
> > having to improvise it...
>
> Well, one could 'push' the pool, of course. Unfortunately, it's not going
> to add very much, because HERO pushes are fairly limited.

What I was getting at was that this would be a case of buying the power,
but keeping the "Requires Skill Roll" Limitation and associated skill.

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 15:33:38 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: Disadvantages
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At 12:59 PM 3/17/1998 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>> This is funny...even though I have quite a stack of Champions books (mostly
>> 4th Ed), I don't have source material for any of the groups you've
>> mentioned. I'm familiar with Genocide and METE by word-of-mouth, and PSI=
>> sounds familiar too, but I've never heard of Exterminators, Headhunter, or
>> Cy-Force. -grin- Let me guess...Exterminators is in "Enemies: Target
>> Earth" or whatever it's called, Headhunter is in The Ultimate Mentalist or
>> Mind Games, and, uh, I don't know where Cy-Force would be found.
>>
> Exterminators, Headhunter, and Cy-Force are, I blelieve, local to
>that particular game.

Well, if you've seen my response to that paragraph, you'll see where
you're in error.
Now, if I'd mentioned the Death-Mongers, II Hot Boyz, or the Emerald
Wizard, *then* we'd be talking campaign-specific enemies.
I make this point because it underlines what I said to someone else,
under a different thread, about making assumptions.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 15:37:50 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: Hero Plus opinions?
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At 05:05 PM 3/17/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> Funny; I have the reverse problem. In Acrobat I can specify which pages
>> I want, while in HTML I have to guess what page(s) something's on.
>
> I've noted the same. I've personally had no real problems with
>the Acrobat format. It does a great job at cross-platform consistancy.
>It is also hard to take the file and pirate it into some other file.

It just occurred to me, too, that I've printed out the whole of the
Fuzion PDF and the Heavy Gear vehicle construction rules PDF. I've also
bought the Vehicle Design System in electronic format, though I have yet to
get around to actually printing that one out.
(BTW I very highly recommend the VDS for anyone planning on building a
vehicle. The combination of that and TUSV would be an unbeatable
combination IMO, regardless of your "home" game system.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:04:53 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Secret IDs...
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In my current campaign, all players take a 5 point disad, "Limited Public
ID". This reflects the fact that they are 'full time' heroes, with
intensive media coverage, a well-known home base, etc. They can still take
a 'secret ID' to reflect the fact that their "real name" is not known,
their family is not connected to them, etc. But they don't have the
problems of "How can I attend that 'Chaotic Excellence In Proactive
Management' conference *and* fight Slorgoth The Giant Slug?"

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:06:31 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: Why not official answers
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At 05:16 PM 3/17/1998 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< Not that it'd make all that much difference if we did get concrete
>"official" responses to our debates. >>
>
> It's very difficult for busy company reps to follow all the threads and
>posts to this (or any) list. I kill-file many, many posts if I have
determined
>that the thread is not something that:
>
> 1) Is directed to me (asks me a direct question, etc.)
> 2) doesn't relate to what I'm surrently working on (San Angelo, Sengoku, et
>al)
> 3) has gone off on a tangent unrelated to the original post
> 4) involves flaming or debate which cannot be resolved with a single
>official ruling (which would have to come from Hero anyway)
>
> That's just a general guideline. I value everyone's opinions on issues. I
>simply don't have the time to read every single message trying to dig up
>specific issues or questions to address. I hope no one here takes offense to
>that.

This is actually why I don't have any complaint about you not responding
to various rules questions. The stuff under Rule #4 would be for Mssrs.
Harlick and/or Peterson to handle; you should just stick to, well, Rules #1
and #2. (We should all ignore #3, or do something about it.)

><< The fact that Steve Long and Mark Arsenault are at least watching the
list,
>in spite of their limited personal time schedules, is very much to their
>credit. >>
>
> Thank you, Bob. I appreciate the sentiment.

You're quite welcome. :-]

> Off topic: I've been involved in a San Angelo-based game with Pat Sweeney
>(the illustrious author, whose work rivals some of the best RPG writers, IMO)
>and it's been a blast! We're using a mix of "official" material from the book
>and "unofficial" stuff as well (which may make it into a future supplement).
>
> Geoff Berman (Corporations, Crime & Crime Again) is also playing, along
with
>a good frined of mine (Matt) and a good friend of Pat's (Rex). Very cool
>group.
>
> It really helps to playtest some of the villains before we publish them,
you
>know? I mean, what looks good on paper sometimes becomes street pizza in
>actual play. <LOL>

I want to move to Sacramento! ;-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:07:01 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: Why not official answers
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At 05:14 PM 3/17/1998 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< But like I said in the other message on this topic, I think Hero is all
>fired up for Fuzion and C:NM, and 4E is just an old product that needs to be
>maintained. >>
>
> I challenge you to put your proverbial money where your proverbial mouth
is,
>then. ;) San Angelo: City of Heroes is the biggest 4th Ed Champions
product to
>be released in the better part of two years. There is a free download of the
>first two chapters; there is an interview with me coming up in the next
>Herozine; we've released some of the interior artwork (on Theala's site, to
>Herozine, on our web page, etc.), and both the publisher (me) and the author
>(Pat) are on this list.
>
> And yet no one has asked us much about it. :)

Right now, Mark, most of us are too busy drooling in anticipation. The
rest are busy with design work for a new face on Mount Rushmore. ;-]
Once it's released and in our hot little grubbies, you -- and especially
Pat -- can expect a lot of questions. I, for one, will be poking my nose
around, trying to find a niche that I can fill up with my writings.
However, in defense of the writer of the above-quoted message, I don't
think he was referring to you. Gold Rush has our highest regards, and I
think that's pretty unanimous here. It's Mssrs. Harlick and Peterson we
wish to have here. Even if their presence was just an occasional
clarifying remark the way you and Steve Long have been doing, it would
probably change a good deal of what goes on on this list, if only by way of
squelching most rules arguments (those along the lines of "This is what th
rules say!" "No, *this* is what the rules say!") and stopping the Hero
Guys Bashing (well, most of it anyway).
They don't have to be afraid of us. We won't hurt them. We *like*
Steve Peterson and Bruce Harlick. They've given us one of the best
role-playing systems on the market. We don't always understand the things
they've done in the name of Hero; many on the list have interpreted certain
marketing changes to mean that they'd really rather do away with the Hero
System (an attitude you also address).
In Bruce's defense, he is at least showing up periodically on Herochat
(this Sunday is his second appearance).
We'd just feel a lot more "connected" if we knew that they were at least
lurking, and if they'd make occasional responses to the list, like you and
Steve Long are doing, Mark.

><< They'd sweep Hero under the carpet and forget it was ever made if they
felt
>the fans would let them. But I think somebody there finally realized that
>doing so could even hurt Fuzion by way of bad reputation for a small company.
>>>
> Look, everyone. Hero Games loves the Hero System, we love the Hero System
>and you guys love the Hero System. As long as there is demand for it and that
>demand translates into sales, there will be continued release of Hero System
>products. Period. Nobody is sweeping anything under the run for the sake of
>getting rid of it. RTG is the publisher of Hero Fuzion products. Hero
produces
>4th Ed books on disk (in PDF). We (GRG) are the publisher of 4th Ed paper
>books. We don't have the same resources that RTG does, so our releases are
>slower.

A problem I'm having (which I recognize is completely out of your
control) is that Hero Plus has been going actively for several months now,
but only three new products have come out on that format (The Ultimate
Super Mage, Widows & Orphans, and Bright Future). All other Hero Plus
products are carry-overs from the ICE days.
Now, having those ICE books available on Hero Plus isn't a *bad* thing.
I have all of the 4th Edition stuff and most of the 3rd Edition stuff (I'm
*still* trying, vainly it seems, to get a copy of Super Agents), but that
won't last forever and it'd be nice to be able to get replacements.
Still, it'd be good to at least know that (for example) The Ultimate
Speedster is in layout, and the Final Draft for European Enemies, Second
Edition has just come in (I don't know that either of those is happening,
folks; they're just examples).

> I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but San Angelo is almost
>out, and 5th Ed is in the works. I'm really interested to hear what you folks
>think of San Angelo. The collective response by Hero fans will have an impact
>on what kind of products we produce in the future.

Don't worry; you'll get our opinions. I'm hopefully going to be picking
it up during the first week or two in April (if it's available, and subject
to certain other factors as well).

><< I would vastly prefer a game company who is very strict in issuing
>clarifications and new rulings than having an apathetic company who basically
>doesn't care about the shortcomings and unclear passages in their product, >>
>
> Well, in fairness, Hero is trying to address many of the unclear rules with
>5th Ed. That is where most of the work lies, IMO. Keep in mind that many
>powers won't change dramatically (if at all), but they will be written more
>concisely, lowering the amount of debate.
>
> Your opinions are all valid, but try to bear in mind that a lot of the
>opinions expressed here amount to basically "house rules," and are not the
>direction that many of the published rules will take. Be that as it may, your
>comments are more than welcomed. In fact, they've been *requested* via the
>Hero questionnaire.

We all appreciate the attention and acknowledgement we're getting with
the work on the Fifth Edition Hero System. But we're impatient. After
all, most of us are Americans. We want the answers NOW. :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:19:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Re; Why not official answers
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On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, GoldRushG wrote:

>
> << Well, I have done that and still gotten a less than concrete answer. >>
>
> So the true complaint is actually that you don't get the response you'd like
> rather than not getting a response at all?

Possibly. I mean, I asked a question and was basically told 'oh, we
hadn't thought of that... uh... well, do what sounds best.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:25:26 -0500 (EST)
From: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: San Angelo
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On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, GoldRushG wrote:

> << When, exactly, will we be able to purchase San Angelo in stores? The date
> supposedly was March, but the month is half gone. Will we see it this month?>>
>
> I do not have an exact street date. The book is tentatively scheduled to go
> to print at teh end of this month. There have been several delays and we're
> working as quickly as we can on this. Unfortunately you won't see SA in stores
> until next month at the earliest.
>
> Mark @ GRG
>

ARGH!!!! Man, I want this book to the point that I am purchasing other
non 4th ed hero products in the hopes that it will tide over my need for
it.

As for my thoughts, I have read the first 2 chapters and it only whet my
appetite for the book. I can't wait to give GRG my money if only it were
available.

I have started a campaign in San Angelo(by name only) using some of the
Bay City campaign material. I just didn't want to hold my campaign off
any longer for SA to come out.(Yeah, I have been waiting with baited
breath for a while now)

Well, sorry for the rant and rave... I guess if someone would sell me a
copy of some other fuzion product to hold me off until next month I will
be okay...

I really am partial to the HG 4th game and only use the fuzion stuff
for source material, but Bay City is well worth a look even if you don't
play the "other" hero.

Laterz,

David





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X-Sender: wbandsis@mail.westco.net
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:53:42 -0500
From: "C. Badger" <wbandsis@westco.net>
Subject: Re: Earthdawn CD
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At 17:23 03/17/98 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< The CD can be found in issues of Inquest and Shadis Magazines, give it a
>look even if you don't play Earthdawn, its a very interesting concept. >>

What issue of the magazines?
-----
C. Badger

My Feet hurt and I've forgotten how to dance.
Londo
Babylon 5


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From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: RE: Hero Plus opinions?
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 20:38:06 -0500
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For the most part, I like the Hero Plus stuff ... if it lives up to what
they said it would do. That is more hero stuff published.

I don't have a problem in general with pdf, though I am not fond of Acrobat
or any other Adobe software. I had no problem going to Adobe's website
however, getting the free Acrobat Reader (both at home or at work), and no
problem installing it (Windows 95 in both cases). My cheap little Brother
Laser Printer (note that it's not Postscript) had no trouble printing out
USM. I clicked the manual duplex button, and printed it on 3-hole drilled
paper. Combine that with a "Machineless Binding System" from Office Max,
and it only cost me under five dollars to have a printed version.

> I do know if it was in HTML, I could edit the file in
> order to print just what I want, instead of trying to guess.

Not a big problem with pdf, so long as you want the whole page. Not only
that, I doubt it's is their intent to allow you to "edit" their published
material. :-) Also, it's usually easier to print pdf than html ... or so
my experience says (In real life, I'm an embedded systems software engineer
who works on Postscript/PCL color laser printers).

I do like the ability to page through a book, but I also like to be able to
do a quick search for something on a computer. With Hero Plus, I sort of
get the best of both.

Last, if my choice is pdf vs. nothing, (or lots of pdf vs. little published
material), then it's pretty clear what my choice is going to be ... give me
pdf! :-)


On the other hand, I do have complaints, all based in USM which is the only
product I have gotten so far ... though I do intend to get others (thought
not any that were already published).

First, the graphics are too low resolution ... especially on the front
cover. They look fine on a computer screen, but are pretty grainy when you
print them out.

Second, outer margins are pretty wide while the inner ones are not. This
is a pain when you want to bind it!!

~ Mike


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From: Doc Tough <DocTough@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 20:46:49 EST
Subject: Re: Hexes (stretching)
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In a message dated 98-03-17 14:45:47 EST, you write:

<< If two players are in melee combat, are they in the same hex or in adjacent
hexes? Can you punch somebody in an adjacent hex, or do you need to move
into their hex? We have always played that there is one character per hex,
so melee happens across hex boundaries.>>

My choice is that HtH combat (sans weapons) occurs in the same hex. The
thought that opponents are in adjacent hexes brings up some curious questions,
particularily ones involving Area effect Attacks and Explosions.
If one or more of the combatants are using weapons or are using ranged
attacks, then combat would take place in adjacent or farther hexes.

<<As a related question, if I buy 1" stretching, does this mean I can punch
somebody two hexes away, or just in the adjacent hex?>>

I would rule that 1" of Stretching would reach into the adjacent hex
only.

Ed Gleason (Doc Tough@aol.com)

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From: Doc Tough <DocTough@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 20:57:38 EST
Subject: Re: Hexes (stretching)
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In a message dated 98-03-17 15:23:49 EST, Ratinox wrote:

<< 1" of stretching adds 1 inch to the basic 1" you already have, so you can
hit anyone in the ring of hexes around the ring of 6 hexes around the one
in which you stand.>>

Are you implying that characters have a reach of six and a half feet?!
That seems very unreasonable. Its more likely that characters should be able
to reach around the hex they are standing in (this includes modest moving
around), but no more.

Doc Tough

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 20:40:38 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Why not official answers
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> I do not have an exact street date. The book is tentatively scheduled to go
> to print at teh end of this month. There have been several delays and we're
> working as quickly as we can on this. Unfortunately you won't see SA in stores
> until next month at the earliest.

Next month!?!

If this one does well will it be easier to get more SA supplements
out?


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:12:25 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: Hexes (stretching)
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At 08:57 PM 3/17/1998 EST, Doc Tough wrote:
>In a message dated 98-03-17 15:23:49 EST, Ratinox wrote:
>
><< 1" of stretching adds 1 inch to the basic 1" you already have, so you can
> hit anyone in the ring of hexes around the ring of 6 hexes around the one
> in which you stand.>>
>
> Are you implying that characters have a reach of six and a half feet?!
>That seems very unreasonable. Its more likely that characters should be able
>to reach around the hex they are standing in (this includes modest moving
>around), but no more.

Why does it seem so unreasonable that a character with 1" of Stretching
should have a reach of six and a half feet?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:23:24 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
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David Stallard wrote:
>
> Message text written by Brian Wong
> > You're more than likely going to need something with the word
> 'variable' in it. That is VPP, Variable Advantage, and or Variable Special
> Effects.<
>
> I didn't consider VPP because it doesn't make sense for this character to
> have a few powers "readied" and have to take time to reshuffle points in
> order to get effects. If he wants to fly, he just sprouts wings out of his
> back...he doesn't need to have flight "on deck" ready for use. We used
> Variable Special Effects in several places, though.

+1 advantage to your power pool allows you to take no time to change the
pool. Make it about 50 points with a couple of disadvantages thrown in to allow
enough points to have several powers to be used at once, and Bob's your uncle.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:25:13 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
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Dataweaver wrote:
>
> On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:
>
> > Message text written by Brian Wong
> > > You're more than likely going to need something with the word
> > 'variable' in it. That is VPP, Variable Advantage, and or Variable Special
> > Effects.<
> >
> > I didn't consider VPP because it doesn't make sense for this character to
> > have a few powers "readied" and have to take time to reshuffle points in
> > order to get effects. If he wants to fly, he just sprouts wings out of his
> > back...he doesn't need to have flight "on deck" ready for use. We used
> > Variable Special Effects in several places, though.
>
> Then apply the +1/2 A "Doesn't require skill to reshuffle points", as
> listed in the rulebook.

Thats also a +1 advantage.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:41:11 EST
Subject: Re: San Angelo: City of Heroes
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<< You forgot to mention that it has the semi-official Kurt Busiek stamp of
approval. :] >>

And there's that... ;)

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:41:33 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
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qts wrote:
>
> On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:30:05 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>
> >Message text written by "qts"
> >>Not so at all. If you move points from one Power to another, the first
> >disappears; there's nothing to stop you having two half-strength
> >powers, though.
> >
> >Example: Shapeshifter forms his legs into a finned tail to assist in
> >swimming; later the villian he is pursuing takes to the air so he grows
> >wings, losing his tail in the process.<
> >
> >You don't find it too powerful that this particular character will have an
> >answer for every situation, simply by doing a half-phase shuffle of the VPP
> >points? His special effect (shapeshifting his body) will limit it a little
> >bit (no raw energy spewing out of his eyes, for example), but it still
> >seems like a big advantage over other characters. I'm not arguing,
> >though... I'm hoping you'll convince me that it's not too powerful.
> >-grin-
>
> No, because the APs are limited by the size of the Pool, and so are the
> possible effects. A player will have a stock set of effects - think of
> the question, "Are you sure it will fit in your Pool?" Don't forget
> that he's going to have to buy the +1 Advantage 'No Roll To Change'.

Okay, lets see. A 50 point pool has a 25 point control cost. Throw in
a +1 advantage, no time for another 25 points, and a +1 advantage, no skill roll
required for yet another 25 points. 50 points for the pool and 75 points for the
control.

Now for some disads. -1/4 for 1/2 DCV concentration while changing, -1/2
for limited special effect (as per page 116 of the BBB) and some gumby -1/4 to be
determined by the player to make the maths easier for a total of a -1 limitation
applied to the control cost making it a 50 point pool and a 37 point control for a
grand total of 87 points which allows 100 points of 50 point or less powers.

So for about a third of your points, you have your shapeshifted abilities
but you still need to buy the actual shapeshift, (quickly scanning the book),
probarly looking at the 30 point level, with a strong case for 20.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:42:20 EST
Subject: Re: Why not official answers
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<< Where exactly *did* they define it in print? The only reference I could
find
is in reference to Mental Powers, p. 117 >>

BBB & TUM

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:43:27 EST
Subject: Re: Why no official answers
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<< I think the general feeling is that whether or not one intends to use house
rules, there needs to be a ground floor shared by all, a default solution to
any question. >>

Absolutely. I agree with you 100%.

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 21:48:50 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Using HERO for nefarious purposes... (Muhahahaha!)
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> > I'd have to disagree. I played in Drive-In Hero at GenCon this
>
> >past year which was, essentially, simplified live-action Hero. Worked
>
> >really well.
>
>
> Well? Tell us about it. How did it go?

Very well. One of the best games I've played.

The setup was normals (kinda) in a B movie setting, so we weren't
talking supers.

Live action with set "scenes" like in a movie, with the action
occasionally being "cut" and later restarted. Dice were used sparingly
for skill and combat rolls. They were really big rubber dice that were
rolled on the floor.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:52:00 -0500
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Hero Plus opinions?
Content-Disposition: inline
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> My Hero+ experience was absolutely infuriating. I got 3 Hero+ products
> from my local store: the UMA, TUM, and TUSM. After struggling with
Adobe's
> pathetic web site to get a copy of the reader for an hour, I finally got
> to viwe the documents. They're not that easy to print, since Adobe thinks
> they own all print protocols. Printers running out of memory 50 pages in.
> Poor graphics quality. Black lines where reverse text should be. Greeked
> out fonts. Misaligned text. Wrong font choices. These were the problems I
> encountered trying to print the files over the next TWO DAYS.

I'm glad to find out I'm not the only one who's had problems printing this
stuff. I got TUSM at GenCon last summer, but when I tried to print out a
few pages on my old printer (an outdated dotmatrix job), I couldn't get it
to print in anything other than "landscape" format.

IOW, sideways.

I recently upgraded to a Canon bubble jet, and now the pages print right
side up, but the text is blurred beyond recognition... it looks like the
horizontal hold on an old tv set that's screwed up! Funny thing is, the
graphics print out clear as a bell.

In short, I MUCH prefer the printed page. I spend too much time in front of
my computer as it is.

Jeff Reid

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:52:40 EST
Subject: Re: Re; Why not official answers
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<< Possibly. I mean, I asked a question and was basically told 'oh, we hadn't
thought of that... uh... well, do what sounds best. >>

Well, at least it's honest! <LOL> The other alternative would have been them
coming up with an answer that you in no way wanted as an "official ruling,"
right?

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:53:51 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Modifiers to Characteristics
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Jeff M. Reid wrote:
> Another thing to consider -- in general, you can't turn off advantages on a
> power. IOW, if you have an Area Effect Energy Blast, you can't use it as a
> single target blast. There's no reason to think that wouldn't apply to STR,
> so if you made your STR area effect, then technically you would always have
> to use it for at least one hex!. I suppose it's possible to avoid this by
> placing the Advantage in a multipower, but isn't there a rule somewhere
> against placing "naked" advantages in a Framework?

Referencing the first half of this paragraph. The BBB states that you do
not need to use a power at full strength. While this is most commonly assumed
(and applied) to reduce the amount of dice thrown in an attack, what if it is
applied to the size of an area effect, or reduce or negate what senses are
affected? For instance, darkness affects a certain number of senses which are
brought as extra, +5 per sense, +10 per group. If I reduce the size of the power
by +10 to remove an entire sense group, is it legal? Also, if I reduce the
amount of dice thrown in an area effect, does the area get smaller?

Please, these are honest questions. I would like considered replies, not
bold statements to pull my head in.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:57:00 EST
Subject: Re: San Angelo
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<< ARGH!!!! Man, I want this book to the point that I am purchasing other non
4th ed hero products in the hopes that it will tide over my need for it. >>

Good lord, man! Do you know what you're saying! Somebody get WotCX on the
phone. We need money and we need it NOW! :D

One of the things we're doing whilest the book is being put together (we're
still waiting on some art as well as the layouts to be finished) is coming up
with a "San Angelo Time Online" web site. The intent is to provide something
of an interactive web site immersed in the San Angelo setting. It'll have
editorial and comments from various NPCs (including a "Guest Column"
consisting of editorials sent in by you folks!), NPC write-ups, mopck ads from
SA:CoH companies, maps, mini-adventures, etc, etc. Once it's up I'll let you
know.

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:01:58 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
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> What about Energy Blast, 0 END, Triggered by successful hit with the staff?
> Actually, it would have to be Triggered by a successful hit with any melee
> weapon in order to fit the current concept...the staff is just a normal
> weapon.

Why not an 1 Hex AE EB, no range, always on (with all the
trimmings, of course). Add a lim -- only vs people in contact with and
what not along with personal imm.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 20:11:41 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
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David Stallard wrote:
<<Snipped>>
>This is why I
> asked the original question "Is this character too limited?", which no one
> has yet answered.

The way he is written, probarly the answer is yes.

However, change his "second" damage shield to an energy blast of some
description, (no range, etc), remove the bo stick focus and spend a point or
two in having some manouvers able to be used with out the stick and assuming
(maybe a big assumption on my part) that he has some half way decent background
skills that can be useable out of combat, he should be okay. Until the first
time they come across a 50 cal, that is.

I fail to see where most of his points seem to have gone. He is 250?
30 points on martial arts, 80 (90?) points on the damage shields? (If that
much has been spent, hit him across the back of the head)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:13:44 EST
Subject: Re: Why not official answers
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<< Next month!?! >>

Is that too soon?

<< If this one does well will it be easier to get more SA supplements out? >>

I think that's a safe bet, yes. ;) In fact, we already have four
supplements on the boards, and two of them already in production.

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:16:01 EST
Subject: Re: Why not official answers
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<< I want to move to Sacramento! ;-]>>

And the best part is cruising down to the Bay Area from time to time to game
with the Hero guys! :D

Actually, it's no real secret that GRG is planning a move to the midwest in
the coming years. If you didn't already know... now you do. ;)

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:19:36 EST
Subject: Re: Why not official answers
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<< It's Mssrs. Harlick and Peterson we wish to have here. >>

So des'ka!

<< But we're impatient. We want the answers NOW. :-] >>

And that, as they say, is that. :)

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 20:23:08 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: The Great Multiform Debate
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 11:33 AM 3/15/1998 -0800, Rook wrote:
> >> > One of the key diferences in the two is damage carryover. In OIHID
> >> > damage to one persona is damage to the other.
> >> > In multiform, short of death, damage to one form has no effect on the
> >> > other (unlike duplication).
> >>
> >> What gives you that impression? My initial reaction was that you were nuts,
> >> but I decided to check the rules just to be sure. Interestingly enough, the
> >> Multiform listing in the Hero Rulesbook doesn't mention damage carryover
> >> one way or the other, so I suppose that there's room for debate. I would
> >> like to hear what others have to say on the subject before I can accept
> >> what seems to me to be a counterintuitive rules interpretation.
> >
> > Simple. It never says it does. So it doesn't. Especially since duplication
> >shows how it does for that power.
>
> It also never says that a character instantly recovers when using
> Multiform.
>
> > Multiform is a power that gives you two seperate bodies. Why should
> >hurting one hurt the other.
>
> Having two separate bodies is only one SFX of Multiform. A body that
> undergoes a severe change is another.

This was going to be one of my questions concerning multiform. Metamorph
has several forms. One form has 40 body, the base form has 10. While blitzed out
with 40 body, Metamorph takes 30 body of damage after defences are applied and
must later change forms into the base. Having suffered 30 points of body, does
Metamorph fall over dead?

On the other side of the coin, Ralph Jones gets himself shot and his
accidental change turns him into a classic RB. Most examples I have seen in
alternate sources don't mention the RB being in a wounded state while it is
terrorising the countryside.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:23:15 EST
Subject: GRG Joins The Circle
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Did I mention to you folks that we've joined the Circle of Heroes? It's
related to that whacky "San Angelo Times Online" web page I mentioned
earlier...

Mark @ GRG

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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:24:31 -0500 (EST)
From: William K Bushway <wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu>
X-Sender: wbushway@mason2.gmu.edu
Subject: Re: Multiple Personalities
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On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> Anyway, the "limited" martial artist that has been the topic of a lot of
> recent message on this list is undergoing some changes. Now, instead of a
> multiform between a normal and an ancient Japanese hero, these two
> personalities are going to exist at the same time. Thus, there isn't a
> "normal"...the normal just picked up all the skills and powers of the hero.
> However, there are going to be two people in his head.
<snip, snip>
> How would you implement this? Is it all done through pysch lims or other
> disadvantages? The character would need various KS to show that he knows
> about ancient culture, ancient heroes and villains, and so forth....

If the character has access to the abilities all the time, I'd
probably buy "Possessed by Ancient Japanese Spirit" as a package deal,
in it placing all the benifits and disads of being so possesed. It can
see having increased characteristics in it, as well as skills and a few
"chi powers." Psych Lims like Culture Shock would be very appropriate,
but I'd make them Infrequent, because he's just a voice in the back of the
character's mind. As a package deal, it'd be easy to keep track of which
points he'd lose if the spirit were somehow exorcised.

If you want to be more complex, you can buy the spirit, with all
his knowledges and abilities, as an Always Invisible, Desolid Duplicate,
who "Must stay within X (distance) of Character." Then, buy a multiform,
representing the merging of both characters. I'd have a lot of fun
playing the Dupe as a NPC, and having the Normal be the only one who can
see and hear him (except for mediums or psychics).

Then again, I also liked playing my players' sentient weapons in
D&D as NPCs. Forcing the players to coerce the weapons into using their
powers, giving the weapons annoying personalities, having them talk to the
PCs incessantly while they were trying to think... Maybe that's just me.

Note: Please excuse some of the typos in this message... The "i" key on
this keyboard seems to be malfunctioning... Gotta love university
computer labs. ;)


William K. Bushway, wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu
http://Mason.GMU.edu/~wbushway/index.html
"I'm betting that I'm just abnormal enough to survive."
-The Tick, The Tick Vs.The Breadmaster

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:36:43 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Why not official answers
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> << Next month!?! >>
>
> Is that too soon?

You don't understand. I need my fix! I need more allies,
enemies, and cool places to have combats in!

> << If this one does well will it be easier to get more SA supplements out? >>
>
> I think that's a safe bet, yes. ;) In fact, we already have four
> supplements on the boards, and two of them already in production.

Good. I'm hoping things go well. I've been getting my Hero fix
by picking up old products I hadn't wanted before. Fantasy Hero with
Companions and Cyber Hero were the latest.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: traveler owned process doing -bs
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:28:41 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Multiple Personalities
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On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, William K Bushway wrote:

> If you want to be more complex, you can buy the spirit, with all
> his knowledges and abilities, as an Always Invisible, Desolid Duplicate,
> who "Must stay within X (distance) of Character." Then, buy a multiform,
> representing the merging of both characters. I'd have a lot of fun
> playing the Dupe as a NPC, and having the Normal be the only one who can
> see and hear him (except for mediums or psychics).

No need to get that fancy; just follow the precedent established by TUM
and call it a Mental Duplication (whereas a more traditional split
personality, where only one is active at a time, would be a Mental
Multiform...)

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 21:34:15 -0800
From: James Jandebeur <lugh@javaman.to>
Subject: Re: "Let's Get Dangerous!!!" (was Re: Influences & Source
Material)
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> I don't remember their names, but one was the resident sea queen ("I'm
> not a duck!") and he other was the big guy who'd been turned into a
> dinosaur ("I *used* to be a duck!").

Sigh.

Neptuna.
Stegmutt <sp>.

How soon they forget...

JAJ, Rules Philosopher

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 00:35:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Re; Why not official answers
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On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, GoldRushG wrote:

> << Possibly. I mean, I asked a question and was basically told 'oh, we hadn't
> thought of that... uh... well, do what sounds best. >>
>
> Well, at least it's honest! <LOL> The other alternative would have been them
> coming up with an answer that you in no way wanted as an "official ruling,"
> right?

It doesn't matter if I wanted it or not, it would have been an 'offical'
ruling that would have resolved the matter. If someone from Hero came
onto the list today and said the offical ruling on Linked was 'x', there
certainly would be people who wouldn't like it, but at least, we would
have an 'offical' answer. This is why I've stressed the need for clarity
to Steve Long (and Hero) in the 5th edition.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 21:37:39 -0800
From: Clinton Chard <chud@pioneer.net>
Subject: Re: Master Ambiguity List
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Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, SteveL1979 wrote:
>
> > In a message dated 98-03-17 10:21:39 EST, susano@access.digex.net writes:
> >
> > << Hero is noted for being vauge about certain ruleings, the Linked debate
> > among them. They also seem less than willing to come out with offical
> > rulings, prefering to let individual GM decide what is best. Now, 5th
> > Edition is *supposed* to fix a number of these vague rule wordings, and
> > Steve Long *is* on this list. I am willing to bet that he would be more
> > than happy to listen to any question you might have and accept any list of
> > rules you think need to be clarified. >>
> >
> > I certainly would be willing to accept such a list. Or, better yet, you can
> > use the questionnaire on Hero's website to offer your suggestions about things
> > to add to or change in the Hero System.
>
> Okay, certainly over the past few years plenty of questions have come up
> about how to interpret the stated rules. The GLD is the prime example, but
> there are others, like the current discussion on damage carryover in
> multiform, and the classic multiple-simultaneous attack question (answered
> in the POC as "whatever you want").
>
> Frankly, I would like an official stance on these long time questions. (In
> 5th edition, Steve, you can certainly include a section on different ways
> to vary the rules along with the effects it will have on the game--an aid
> to house-rule creation.) But if you're like me, you probably can't recall
> all at once what those ambiguities are. But if we all put our heads
> together, we should be able to produce the Master Ambiguity List, and
> submit it to Steve. Just post your pet ambuiguities to the list, and I'll
> compile them for submission. These will be the things we will want
> explicitly clarified in 5th.
>
> Remember, none of this should have an impact on our ability to make house
> rules. However, we'll at least have a common framework for reference when
> sharing characters, for example--without having to state our 20 stances on
> ambiguous issues that led to the character design.
>
> Starting points:
>
> - The Great Linked Debate.
> - Does damage carry over in multiform?
> - Does "Usable Against Others" imply that you can't use the power on
> yourself?

Remember April 1, 1998 is the due date for input for 5E, according to the Hero
Homepage.

--
"Contrariwise," Continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be; and if it were so,
it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." -Lewis Carroll

Clinton Chard


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 21:59:00 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Countering increased drain times
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Effects of drain and transfer normally return at 5 points per
turn. This can be moved down the time chart one level for each +1/4
advantage.

I was thinking about a character who recovers from adverse
effects very quickly to the extent that within a few seconds he would be
just about as good as new. Obviously, a high recovery would be part of
it but the effects of drains and transfers can make it harder to be able
to be a dynamic sponge. Power and ego defence dont go far enough for the
effet that I am after.

Some of the thoughts that I had included bastardised versions of
multiform or duplication but the recent discussions on this site seem to
indicate that many people believe that damage transfers. Oh, well.

So I am left with either a triggered aid and/or some sort of
"power" that will counter the effects of increased time. The problem
with trigger is that it is a one shot effect and needs to be reset after
being tripped which can make the entire concept a bit jagged.

Any comments? Be aware it is only a thought exercise and more
than likely will not end up as a PC but as part of a villian group.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 01:53:24 EST
Subject: Re: Re; Why not official answers
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<< It doesn't matter if I wanted it or not, it would have been an 'offical'
ruling that would have resolved the matter. >>

I forget that you cannot see my tongue planted in my cheek as I type. :/

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 01:40:59 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: mlnunn@blue.net
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Why would an official matter?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 01:53 AM 3/18/98 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< It doesn't matter if I wanted it or not, it would have been an 'offical'
>ruling that would have resolved the matter. >>

Why? It's common for this list to argue over printed rules, why would an
E-mail reply make any diffrence?

Michael
Fanning the fires...
Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist recently updated web site...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm

"You have never lived until you have almost died.
And for those who fight for it,
life has a flavor the protected never know"
- anonymous

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Villain escape methods
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 03:47:13 -0500 (EST)
Organization: VTSFFC
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> else. At this point, would you give up and let the brick get captured?
> What other methods are there to ensure that your villains aren't captured
> sooner than you want them to be?

If your team dosen't have any good aquatic people, then make the
brick amphibious and have him operate near water. All he has to do is
punch through the heros, get to the river, and swim out to sea.
Used this for a brickish battlesuit for a Philladelphia game for
years. He'd dive down, then release remote decoys that spread out in
several directions.

Daniel Pawtowski

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Villain escape methods
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 03:51:41 -0500 (EST)
Organization: VTSFFC
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Then there was the shrinking brick "THE MIGHTY FLEA!!!".

The cops showed the heros the videotape of what happened when they put
him into a jail cell. He started getting smaller. And smaller.
And smaller..... Desolid and Invisibility, SFX "Become small enough to
walk between the molecules of the wall".
Three days later, the PC's leader got a note in the mail- "Fools!!
No cell can hold THE MIGHTY FLEA!!!" scribbled in crayon (he was a
little nuts). The cops were glad to hear it, they'd had some poor slob
in the cell with a magnifying glass the whole time on the off chance that
he was still in it.

Daniel Pawtowski

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 03:20:30 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
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> > Secret ID means no one knows the character is a hero (or villain),
> > like Aunt May doesn't know Peter Parker is Spiderman, or that
> > Commissioner Gordon doensn't know Batman is Bruce Wayne.
>
> Definitely wrong on the first count, and quite possibly wrong on the
> second, BTW... (May Parker revealed that she had known for some time about
> Peter being Spiderman shortly before she died, and it has been hinted that
> Gordon may know who Batman is as far back as Batman: Year One...
>
> Secret ID means that the character leads two lives and has to put
> considerable effort into keeping them seperate.

However, having a Secret ID doesn't necessarily mean that NOBODY
knows, but more accurately that between nobody and very few people
know. The danger is not so much that your girl/boyfriend will find out
(though that can be uncomfortable - possibly dangerous if you have a bad
breakup), but that the WRONG person/people will find out. It ultimately
did not endanger Batman's career if/when Commishoner Gordon figured out
who he was, nor with Catwoman (she kept it to herself). And when Black
Cat learned the Spidey was P.P., it was okay, even after they split, but
it was definitely bad news when the (original) Green Goblin found out.

--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 06:51:10 -0500
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Why would an official matter?
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> Why? It's common for this list to argue over printed rules, why would an
> E-mail reply make any diffrence?

I think he meant that it would have resolved the debate over how they
>intended< it to work. No one would deny that the debate over the way it
>should< work would continue :-)

Jeff Reid

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 04:11:35 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Countering increased drain times
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Rick Holding wrote:
>
> Effects of drain and transfer normally return at 5 points per
> turn. This can be moved down the time chart one level for each +1/4
> advantage.
>
> I was thinking about a character who recovers from adverse
> effects very quickly to the extent that within a few seconds he would be
> just about as good as new. Obviously, a high recovery would be part of
> it but the effects of drains and transfers can make it harder to be
> * * *
> Any comments? Be aware it is only a thought exercise and more
> than likely will not end up as a PC but as part of a villian group.

Thought #1:

30 2D6 Aid Any Power or Characteristic Below Starting Value(+1/4)
Cont(+1) Uncontrolled(+1/2) 0 END(+1/2) Per(+1/2) [67]
Only to starting value(-1/2) Self Only(-1/2)
Only vs Adjustment Powers(-1/4)
I allow +1/4 adjustment powers to affect powers in a
"programmed sequence" specified when the power is bought.

Thought #2:

30 4D6 Aid Any Power or Characteristic Below Starting Value(+1/4)
Triggered(+1/4) 250 Recoverable Charges(+1 1/2) [60]
Uses END(-1/2) Side Effect 3D6 Drain END (-1/2)
The trigger fires one Aid if any power except END is
below starting value for any reason, but not more than
one per segment. This functionally transfers any Drain
to END, which can be recovered.
One charge is recovered by being out of combat for one
turn: this will recover all charges in about an hour.

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 06:06:01 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: "Let's Get Dangerous!!!"
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At 09:34 PM 3/17/1998 -0800, James Jandebeur wrote:
>> I don't remember their names, but one was the resident sea queen ("I'm
>> not a duck!") and he other was the big guy who'd been turned into a
>> dinosaur ("I *used* to be a duck!").
>
>Sigh.
>
>Neptuna.
>Stegmutt <sp>.
>
>How soon they forget...

So sue me. I haven't seen the show in over 3 years....
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 06:12:22 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Why not official answers
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At 11:16 PM 3/17/1998 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< I want to move to Sacramento! ;-]>>
>
> And the best part is cruising down to the Bay Area from time to time to
game
>with the Hero guys! :D
>
> Actually, it's no real secret that GRG is planning a move to the midwest in
>the coming years. If you didn't already know... now you do. ;)

No, I didn't know. (Either you haven't mentioned it on the list or on
your website before now, or it sailed right past me.)
Well, so much for moving to Sacramento.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Why would an official matter?
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 06:32:46 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>
> > Why? It's common for this list to argue over printed rules, why would an
> > E-mail reply make any diffrence? =
>
> I think he meant that it would have resolved the debate over how they
> >intended< it to work. No one would deny that the debate over the way it
> >should< work would continue :-)

Exactly. Once we know how the printed rules are intended; we know
what's a house rule and what isn't. This would stop argument
over what the rules are. Replacing it with debate over ways to fix them.
Which is much more constructive.

Rook ?U ?k 1b
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Roleplay

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Hexes (stretching)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 06:50:36 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> << 1" of stretching adds 1 inch to the basic 1" you already have, so you can
> hit anyone in the ring of hexes around the ring of 6 hexes around the one
> in which you stand.>>
>
> Are you implying that characters have a reach of six and a half feet?!
> That seems very unreasonable. Its more likely that characters should be able
> to reach around the hex they are standing in (this includes modest moving
> around), but no more.

Actually it's not. Mark off a standard sized hex and move around in it.
Sure you can fit multiple people in there, but it's also about the size of
a good 'fighting zone' for a single person. Two people can fight in there as
well. CLose in 'street fighting' style brawls often do take up so little
space. But skilled combatants will mark off a zone and defend it. That
zone could be from 1 to 3 feet in radius around them. And a 3 foot radius
plus body builds the standard champions hex.

Rook ?U ?k 1b
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Roleplay

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:03:12 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Red Bow Antiques
Subject: Life support as defense.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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This problem hasn't actually come up, but I noticed it and wondered
what other GM's would do. I know that Life Support shouln't offer a
means of defense, but I was wondering if a character bought Immune to
Disease would he be effected by some one with an attack designed as a
disease?
For Example:

DiseaseMan attacks HeroMan with a 9d6 Con Drain with the special effect
that he gives the person a disease. HeroMan has Immune to Disease. So
would DiseaseMan effect HeroMan?

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:10:18 +0000
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: C:NM setting in 4E?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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X-UID: 74

Christopher Taylor wrote:
>
> >I have played, and loved, Hero for years for it's flexibility. But I
> was
> >always playing with other "Hero-Players". Now we have all moved to
> >different corners of the world (different universities) and I have a
> new
> >group none of whom have ever played Hero.
> >
> >I started up a Hero campaign (naturally, I mean.. these poor
> misguided
> >fools.. what had they been playing in the meantime??). This was the
> >first time I realised how impenetrable the rules of Hero can be to
> >"outsiders". I quickly saw the game collapsing, and so I kept
> >simplifying the rules and watering stuff down until everyone at least
> >had the basics down.
>
> Ummmm Impenetrable? Ive taught over a dozen people to play hero and
> they
> pick it up in a matter of hours, getting the combat quickly and
> character
> building is a matter of them describing what you want. Perhaps you
> innundated them too quickly? Any game system is incomprehensible
> taken as a
> whole, but Hero is rather simple... and RPG players are on the whole
> more
> intelligent and creative than the general populace.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
> Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
> -----------------------------------------------------------

Personally, I dislike having to sit down and teach a system. My group
(including myself) are all players rather than gamers. We only get to
play once a week, and none of us fancied sitting down for a lecture (we
have enough of that in university!)

I, like yourself, used the character modelling approach to create the
players characters (they describe the character - I translate it).

However, I stand by my claim that Fuzion is an excellent vehicle for
quick and easy play and as an introduction into hero.


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:14:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 56

bobby farris writes:
> This problem hasn't actually come up, but I noticed it and wondered
> what other GM's would do. I know that Life Support shouln't offer a
> means of defense, but I was wondering if a character bought Immune to
> Disease would he be effected by some one with an attack designed as a
> disease?
> For Example:
>
> DiseaseMan attacks HeroMan with a 9d6 Con Drain with the special
> effect that he gives the person a disease. HeroMan has Immune to Disease.
> So would DiseaseMan effect HeroMan?

Life support states that it doesn't stop attacks with this attack form -- thus,
the 9d6 con drain with a 'disease' special effect would not be stopped,
_unless_ it took a limitation 'not vs targets with life support: disease'.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:17:31 +0000
Subject: Re: Damage Shield
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> Message text written by Todd Hanson
> >In the BBB, it specifically says that you only apply your damage shield
> if you grab someone.<
>
> I looked it up this morning, and you're right...damage shield only
> does damage if someone attacks you, or if you grab someone. Back to
> my special effect of being surrounded by fire...in order for me to
> burn them with my fire "aura" by touching them, I would need to buy
> an Energy Blast, No Range? Why doesn't damage shield include
> outgoing attacks as well as incoming attacks? Just to keep the
> power in check?
>

How about Damage Shield, Area Effect?

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:18:26 -0600
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Red Bow Antiques
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 58

Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
> Life support states that it doesn't stop attacks with this attack form >-- thus, the 9d6 con drain with a 'disease' special effect would not be >stopped, _unless_ it took a limitation 'not vs targets with life >support: disease'.

So what is the advantage of Immune to Disease and how do you explain in
non-game mechanic terms that DiseaseMan's powers work on HeroMan?

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: empulse@usa.net (Unverified)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:20:29 -0800
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 11:03 AM 3/18/98 -0600, bobby farris wrote:
>This problem hasn't actually come up, but I noticed it and wondered
>what other GM's would do. I know that Life Support shouln't offer a
>means of defense, but I was wondering if a character bought Immune to
>Disease would he be effected by some one with an attack designed as a
>disease?
> For Example:
>
> DiseaseMan attacks HeroMan with a 9d6 Con Drain with the special effect
>that he gives the person a disease. HeroMan has Immune to Disease. So
>would DiseaseMan effect HeroMan?

I usually look at it from the other point of view. How was DiseaseMan's
powers created? If he wants to have a power with the special effect of
giving a person a disease then there should be a limitation on the power
that it doesn't effect targets that are unaffected by diseases, such as
Robots or people with LS: Immune to disease.

-Nic


+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| naneiden@iswest.com |
| Justice, Like Lightning, Thunderbolts! |
| http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/thunder.html |
| Costumed Heroines |
| http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/index.html |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:21:19 EST
Subject: Re: Villain Escapes
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Here's another one that was accidentally sent to just the original poster...

<< B) have him escape aftr the police take him away >>

There are a lot of places along the way to prison that a supervillain could
potentially escape. Let's look at a few:

Enroute to jail -- Once the cops transport the villain and the villain
regains his senses, do you *really* think a police car or paddy wagon is going
to hold them? Granted, this works less well if the cops are *geared* for
transporting villains, although some types are easier to control than others
(can anyone say Mentalists?).

Booking -- Let's assume the villain goes without a fight. Suddenly they're
getting ready to undress him (part of the procedure; switching street
"clothes" for jail clothes). He gopes nuts, and a fight breaks out. Can he get
through a standard reinforced concrete wall? If the answer is yes, it's called
freedom (and a huge police manhunt!).

Inside the cell -- Jail inmates have littel to do except plan and scheme.
They get their 1 hours a day rec time, they're shower every two days, and
inmates on good behavior may qualify for work details (laundry, kitchen,
etc.). Does the villain fly? Maybe he's unloading the laundry truck at the
back dock and suddenly looks up into the sky... where there is no chainlink
barrier. ;)

Court -- Villains who actually go to court have another ample opportunity to
escape, though this makes their conviction much, much more likely (Judges
would likely slap a no-bail warrant down in a heartbeat for someone escaping
from their very courtroom -- the nerve of that villain!). All but the most
dangerous/high-risk inmates are usually allowed to sit in court without
handcuffs on during court preceedings. Of course they go back on once out of
the court room, but still... Really bad guys will have not just handcuffs but
a belly chain and leg shackles (no joke!) and maybe even a stun belt (like a
Stun gun, but works via contacts in the belt and controlled by a remote
control unit carried by one of the escort officers).
Court appearances can be waived, but typically the villain will be in court
for: the arraignment, the pre-trial, the trial, and the sentencing (assuming
he's found guilty). I prefer to let the villain stay on good behavior for the
first appearance, while he surveys the court room and security, etc. Then on
the second appearance (after making phone calls to his buddies, if necessary,
from jail) he makes his escape!

Transport to Prison -- Okay, he's been good all this time, found guilty and
has been pickedup by the state prison guys for his trip to the hoosegow.
That's usually a plain, unmarked white van with bars in the windows. Again,
not too tough to get out for a super, IMO.

In the Pen -- Convicted prisoners, much like jail inmates, have little to do
except plan and scheme. ;)

Court Again? -- If state prisoners commit serious crimes in prison (shanking
their cell mate, rape, etc.) they get to go to court all over again...

Those are just a few of my favorite escape methods for prisoners. ;)

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:23:32 +0000
Subject: Re: San Angelo
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> << ARGH!!!! Man, I want this book to the point that I am purchasing
> other non 4th ed hero products in the hopes that it will tide over
> my need for it. >>
>

We're already playing in San Angelo--the GM is pulling info from Bay
City until SA comes out. Great Universe, Mark, lotsa flexibility for
players to tailor the universe to suit themselves ;D

> Good lord, man! Do you know what you're saying! Somebody get
> WotCX on the
> phone. We need money and we need it NOW! :D
>
> One of the things we're doing whilest the book is being put
> together (we're
> still waiting on some art as well as the layouts to be finished) is
> coming up with a "San Angelo Time Online" web site. The intent is to
> provide something of an interactive web site immersed in the San
> Angelo setting. It'll have editorial and comments from various NPCs
> (including a "Guest Column" consisting of editorials sent in by you
> folks!), NPC write-ups, mopck ads from SA:CoH companies, maps,
> mini-adventures, etc, etc. Once it's up I'll let you know.

Cool. Can't wait to see it.

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:24:29 +0000
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Countering increased drain times
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Rick Holding wrote:
>
> Effects of drain and transfer normally return at 5 points per
> turn. This can be moved down the time chart one level for each +1/4
> advantage.
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
> Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
> -----------------------------------------------------------

A normal person (in Hero terms) has a REC of 4.

This is one of the first thing that jarred me about Hero when I started
playing it - Wolverine recovers from being drained at the same speed as
the paperboy who was unfortunately caught in the same blast??????? GASP!

I never though it was too implausible that those cheeky hero fellas
really meant 4 ... NOT 5. Drained things return at the same rate as any
other characteristic that falls below it's starting value.

I don't think there can be a much simpler mechanic or house-rule than
this.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:29:29 +0000
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Theala Sildorian wrote:
> >
> > Secret ID means no one knows the character is a hero (or villain),
> > like Aunt May doesn't know Peter Parker is Spiderman, or that
> > Commissioner Gordon doensn't know Batman is Bruce Wayne.
>
> Definitely wrong on the first count, and quite possibly wrong on the
> second, BTW... (May Parker revealed that she had known for some time
> about Peter being Spiderman shortly before she died, and it has been
> hinted that Gordon may know who Batman is as far back as Batman:
> Year One...

OK, just blow my cover on the fact I don't read comic books regularly
:D Sure, my examples may suffer, but the point remains valid (fine
literature like Spiderman and Batman aside) :D

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
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From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:35:33 +0000
Subject: RE: Secret ID / Public ID
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> > Theala Sildorian [SMTP:theala@shore.intercom.net]

> So ... I'm still undecided. I do think that a Disadvantage should
> apply to all aspects of a character, but where do you draw the line?

It's not always necessary to draw lines. Sometimes one should just
go with the flow, and see how the concept works in practice. To me
Disadvantages really mean "Aspects of a character's concept which may
affect him adversely or positively, but which will almost always be
noticed at some point in time." You know, when Fuzion first came
out, I lambasted the Hero Guru's for changing the name of
Disadvantages to "Complications" "Silly," I said at the time. Now
I'm not so sure. Complications doesn't have the negative
connotations Disadvantages have, and I am growing more of the opinion
that Disadvantages need not always be hurtful to a player if he is
clever enough to use the Disadvantage to play the character
appropriately or to react in certain ways which enhance a storyline.

For example, Superman's aversion to Kryptonite is certainly a
Disadvantage (A vulnerability I suppose?) but where would he be
without it? How many wonderful stories have revolved around
Kryptonite, yet Superman always comes out on top in the end.

So I don't have a problem with Disadvantages which may affect only
one aspect of a character, and not another. As long as it makes for
good storytelling, who cares?

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:38:08 +0000
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> > I cite Bruce Wayne as an example of a person who has both:
> > everyone knows Bruce Wayne, business tycoon, playboy
> > philanthropist who lives at Stately Wayne Manor outside of
> > Gotham City--but no one knows he is hiding a secret:
> > that he rides at night as the mysterious Batman.
>
> In our campaigns, we allow a modified Reputation to cover such a
> situation.

Yeah, most of the guys in my gaming group prefer that option to using
both Public ID and Secret ID, which was a bummer to me because the GM
didn't like the combo I picked for one of my characters recently. I
still think there's no problem having both, but had to bow to the
wisdom of the all mighty GM :D

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:40:21 -0500
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Re: Villain escape methods
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> else. At this point, would you give up and let the brick get captured?
> What other methods are there to ensure that your villains aren't captured
> sooner than you want them to be?

A previous GM of mine just didn't bother to explain it. He would end it
with:

"the villians see that they are losing, grab their wounded and take
off."

We protested the first couple of times, insisting that we would chase
them etc. His response was "This is a comic. In the comics, the
villian's escape all the time. Unless you want to do one-shot scenarios
with no plot and have no one to fight next week, they escape."

He only did this when he knew we would be encountering the villian's
again. When we had completed the current storyline, we (usually) were
able to capture the villian's at the end of the fight. This tended to
make the return fight a little more exciting - the villian's were always
better prepared for us the 2nd time around. They knew our tactics, and
who was the most dangerous, etc..

In one way, it was kind of a cop out, just saying 'they escape', but on
the other hand, it allowed him to do full storylines without worrying
about the villian's being captured halfway through, and he didn't have
to constantly come up with cheesy ways for the villian's to escape.

It was kind of like the old 'Brown Hornet' cartoon they used to show on
saturday mornings (as part of Fat Albert if I remember right). Each show
would end with the Brown Hornet being in some death-defying situation.
At the beginning of the next episode it would show the ending of the
previous episode, and the voice-over would just say "and using his super
powers, the Brown Hornet naturally escaped.... unharmed" - with no
further explanation.


Todd



--
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Todd Hanson Minnesota: Land of two seasons:
BadTodd@dacmail.net winter is coming, winter is here.
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Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:41:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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bobby farris writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> >
> > Life support states that it doesn't stop attacks with this attack form
> > >-- thus, the 9d6 con drain with a 'disease' special effect would not be
>stopped, _unless_ it took a limitation 'not vs targets with life >support:
disease'.
>
> So what is the advantage of Immune to Disease and how do you explain in
> non-game mechanic terms that DiseaseMan's powers work on HeroMan?
>
First of all, disease-man's powers quite possibly _should_ have a limitation to
reduce their effect against people with LS: disease; if they don't have such a
limitation, then obviously it's a _special_ and exotic disease, thus capable of
bypassing his immunity.
Generally speaking, life support helps against (a) NND attacks, (b) powers
which have been limited to not work against that LS (due to special effect
restrictions) and (c) environmental effects (which is to say, effects which
weren't bought as a power). Thus, if you're immune to disease and walk through
a plague-infested city, you won't have to worry about getting the plague.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:42:24 +0000
Subject: RE: Sidekick
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> > A combat manager for Hero System. Great for Champions, not so good
> > for Heroic level campaigns.
> >
> > I prefer Hero Dice and Combat Sequencer--a pair of programs designed
> > to work together.
> >
>
> I fugured it was something of the sort. I have Hero Dice, but not
> Combat Sequencer - never heard of that one, actually. I'll have to
> keep an eye out for it, if it's still available.

You can get it off my Home Page, Jeff. If you have Hero Dice, you
should have been able to get the other: I've always uploaded both at
the same site to whereever they've been offered--you see, they were
written by one of the guys in my gaming group :D

Here's the URL:

http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/computer.html

Be A Hero!

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:43:15 -0500
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Re: Why not official answers
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> > Actually, it's no real secret that GRG is planning a move to the
> midwest in
> >the coming years. If you didn't already know... now you do. ;)


really?? WHERE in the mid-west??


Todd - who lives in the midwest!

--
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Todd Hanson Minnesota: Land of two seasons:
BadTodd@dacmail.net winter is coming, winter is here.
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Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:45:28 +0000
Subject: Re: Stronghold: local chapters?
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> Since there's only one Stronghold and it's in Arizona (or is it New
> Mexico?), what happens to villain prisoners before they are
> transported to Stronghold? I was thinking that each city would have
> to have a representative team from Stronghold who knows how to
> contain villains. The regular police would only be able to contain
> a small portion of them. In C:NM, maybe The Guard fulfills this
> function....
>

The Defenders of Hudson City have two superpowered cells which can
hold two inmates each. If they capture villains who require foci for
their powers, or who are little more than agents, then they end up in
Longview Correctional Center (JNL). If they're paranormals without
foci, then the Defenders hold them and transfer them to Stronghold as
soon as possible.

Stronghold got an update in CNM, and San Angelo is going to get a
whole new setup of it's own which will be MUCH more detailed, as it
is being written by someone who has worked in corrections :D

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:48:31 +0000
Subject: Re: Villain Secret IDs
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> When your villains are arrested, do the cops take off their masks
> and get their true identities? I've seen in comics and cartoons
> that often a villain is sitting in jail, in full costume. This
> doesn't seem very realistic, but it is very tough to re-use your
> villains after all their identities have been made public.
>

Oh yes, villains who get nabbed lose their Secret IDs. It's unfair
to the players without a very good reason.

Heh. I did run one scenario recently where the players WERE the
supervillains. They were trying to bust someone out of Stronghold
and got caught. Since neither of them had a prior criminal record or
had served in the military, there was little the authorities could do
when they refused to reveal their real names. Made for some
interesting roleplaying when I ran the interrogation :)

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:50:32 +0000
Subject: Re: Stronghold: local chapters?
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

> In my longest running Champions campaign, many events surrounded the
> construction of a second Stronghold outside Philadelphia.
> (Stronghold, by the way, was just about the only Champions universe
> thing I ever imported into my game - I have a strong preference for
> my own creations.)

Another possibility for those looking for additional prison settings
besides Stronghold would be to use the Dystopia scenario written by
Chris Avellone and published by Atlas Games. A dark, scary story
surrounding the construction of a super prison, and the plans of the
builder to use it as a source of slave labor by pumping a mind
controlling drug into the prisoners.

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:51:53 -0500
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
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bobby farris wrote:
>
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> >
> > Life support states that it doesn't stop attacks with this attack
> form >-- thus, the 9d6 con drain with a 'disease' special effect would
> not be >stopped, _unless_ it took a limitation 'not vs targets with
> life >support: disease'.
>
> So what is the advantage of Immune to Disease and how do you explain in
> non-game mechanic terms that DiseaseMan's powers work on HeroMan?


For the same reason that the 3 pts you spent to protect yourself from
intense heat/cold doesnt make you immune to Fireman's RKA. Game
Balance.

In more 'realistic' terms, the 'immune to disease' prevents his body
from being affected by a 'normal level' of disease. Obviously
DiseaseMan's con drain is such a concentrated amount of disease that
HeroMan's body can't handle it all at once, hence he takes the damage.
Over time, his life support will allow him to fight off the disease, but
for the short term... sucks to be him.

If the GM wants to be nice, let him subtract 3 pts off of the con drain,
using his 3 pts of LS:Immune to disease as power defense against the
attack.

The advantage to immune to disease isnt to protect him from attacks
(other than NNDs), but rather to protect him from the day to day
diseases. He doesn't have to worry about catching the flu or the clap
(or that new super-virus that VIPER is getting set to unleash on the
world).



Todd


--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Todd Hanson Minnesota: Land of two seasons:
BadTodd@dacmail.net winter is coming, winter is here.
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Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:10:41 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 11:18 AM 3/18/98 -0600, bobby farris wrote:
>Anthony Jackson wrote:
>>
>> Life support states that it doesn't stop attacks with this attack form
>-- thus, the 9d6 con drain with a 'disease' special effect would not be
>stopped, _unless_ it took a limitation 'not vs targets with life >support:
disease'.
>
>So what is the advantage of Immune to Disease and how do you explain in
>non-game mechanic terms that DiseaseMan's powers work on HeroMan?
>
The advantage is you don't catch normal diseases. Disease Man has 'super
germs' which the character isn't immune to.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:44:39 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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>Life support states that it doesn't stop attacks with this attack form --
thus,
>the 9d6 con drain with a 'disease' special effect would not be stopped,
>_unless_ it took a limitation 'not vs targets with life support: disease'.

Though it's clear that this is true, it brings up the question (in my mind,
anyway) of just under what conditions LS is usable. The BBB implies that
"sudden system shock" is the key, but doesn't detail that. The relevant
paragraph reads:

"Even though a character can survive in a certain environment, he will
still take damage from attacks with that special effect, due to the sudden
system shock. For example, a character who could survive extreme heat
would still take damage from fire attacks."

The implication is that the character will ALWAYS take THE NORMAL damage
from ANY AND ALL fire-based attacks, the capitalized words being implied by
the lack of any qualifiers. Apart from the need to maintain game balance,
what is the logic behind this?

The Amazing Shadrach can safely open the door of a blast furnace and stand
in front of it, ignoring the 6d6K energy from the incredible heat. He
suffers no illl effects from this incredible feat, but upon leaving his
dressing room after the show, he is hit by a 3d6 fire-based Energy Blast
from a jealous would-be rival. Shadrach suffers 4 BODY and 16 STUN from
this attack, which is 15 Damage Classes below the one he previously
ignored. Why? Because he wasn't "prepared" for it? Because no evil
intent was behind the opening of the furnace door?

If preparation makes a difference, what is Shadrach had seen his rival
approaching. Might he have held an action, and thus prepared, use his LS
against the Mighty Meshach's churlish attack? No, of course not. Silly
Shadrach should have paid as much as 30 extra points to buy Damage
Reduction, Only Usable Against Fire -1. His Life Support only works
when...um...when it wouldn't unbalance the game for it to work? How the
hell is he supposed to know when that is?

Spaceman Spiff has a 13-point LS that protects him against vacuum and makes
his breathing self-contained. Without warning, the hull of his ship is
breached and he is pulled out into airless space! Oh, no! Does his LS
protect him? After all, he wasn't prepared for it. Does it work because
being pulled out into space was not in and of itself an attack, but merely
the end result of an attack (on his ship, not on him)?

Presume that Spiff in the above example was an alien with natural LS; for
this next situation, make him a normal human in a vacuum suit. While
wearing the suit aboard ship, he is attacked by a technomage who uses
Change Environment to create a vacuum in the room. This is clearly an
attack. Does Spiff's LS protect him? Yes. But why? Because his LS is in
a Focus this time? Because Change Environment does no *direct* STUN and
BODY damage? Or because Change Environment *also* has an irrational flaw
that prohibits is against having any direct effect on combat?

What I'm trying to find here is not an idea of whether or not LS should
protect against attacks with the matching special effect. The BBB is clear
on that point. It won't. It would be nice to think there is some
rationale behind making the distinction, apart from "the game would be
unbalanced if we didn't". Game balance was always the big excuse for the
AD&D folks, too: elves can't get above "x" level, despite living 10 times
as long as humans, because elves already have all these other advantages.
One of those advantages is a higher racial minimum for INT than humans;
you'd think a few of them would have learned to exploit that and advance
themselves further. I do think game balance is important. I do not think
it should be used as a catch-all excuse for every apparent inconsistency in
the game.

Damon

------------------
Things don't change. You change your way of looking, that's all.
-- Carlos Castaneda

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X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:50:32 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
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>>So what is the advantage of Immune to Disease and how do you explain in
>>non-game mechanic terms that DiseaseMan's powers work on HeroMan?
>>
>The advantage is you don't catch normal diseases. Disease Man has 'super
>germs' which the character isn't immune to.

For this specific example, I might buy "super germs" (mutated strain, for
example), but try applying this explanation to other SFX and it looks
silly: super fire? super cold? Remember, these are not measures of
degree, but of type; what characteristic would "super fire" have that
ordinary extreme heat would not (other than the ability to bypass LS)?

Damon

|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/ |
| Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines |
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Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:53:41 EST
Subject: San Angelo Time Online
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<< I visited the GRG site and saw the SA:CoH page. It looks very promising
once it has some actual material.>>

Well, it ain't quite finished yet, but it should be this coming weekend.

But there is some content there, and all of the pages that don't have
content yet should at least say so and solicit submissions from folks. So head
on over and take a gander. We'll be adding a lot more stuff in the coming days
and weeks.

Mark @ GRG
http://members.aol.com/goldrushg (Click on the SA:CoH link or book cover)

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:59:58 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
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At 11:03 AM 3/18/1998 -0600, bobby farris wrote:
>This problem hasn't actually come up, but I noticed it and wondered
>what other GM's would do. I know that Life Support shouln't offer a
>means of defense, but I was wondering if a character bought Immune to
>Disease would he be effected by some one with an attack designed as a
>disease?
> For Example:
>
> DiseaseMan attacks HeroMan with a 9d6 Con Drain with the special effect
>that he gives the person a disease. HeroMan has Immune to Disease. So
>would DiseaseMan effect HeroMan?

I'd normally give DiseaseMan a -1/4 Limitation for this not working vs
those who are Immune to Disease (or have another appropriate defense).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:16:23 -0500
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
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bobby farris wrote:
>
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> >
> > Life support states that it doesn't stop attacks with this attack
> form >-- thus, the 9d6 con drain with a 'disease' special effect would
> not be >stopped, _unless_ it took a limitation 'not vs targets with
> life >support: disease'.
>
> So what is the advantage of Immune to Disease and how do you explain in
> non-game mechanic terms that DiseaseMan's powers work on HeroMan?


This is all tied in with one of my pet peeves about the way
people use Hero mechanics - problems with the SFX of Power Defense.

Power Defense is that defense that makes you resistant to magic
spells turning you into a frog, debilitating diseases, super-
parasites stealing your powers, the slowing of time in your
vicinity, and - um, stuff like that.

In other words, it's a rules mechanic that has virtually no
binding set of special effects. In general, I won't allow a
character to take Power Defense without a limitation defining
exactly what class of attacks the character is resistant to. My
only exception to this is in some cases of magical protection
which is appropriately far-reaching, and even their I prefer to
limit its use to elemental-type beings whose existence is
defined by their essence.

Now, there would be a strong logic to using Power Defense, Only vs.
Disease, _instead_ of Life Support: Immune to Disease. Just about
any disease can be written up in the form of a Drain (or Transform,
if it's a really weird disease), with possibly a few other effects
thrown in. However, to play this out consistently the GM would need
a write-up for every disease that came into the game; this is
feasible, but seems like a lot of effort for something that is
pretty peripheral to most games. (The Hero Bestiary, I believe,
does write up some of the nastier diseases that are out there,
and I think one of the Almanacs did so as well.)

So, until the _Ultimate Healthcare Professional_ comes out, it's
convenient to fake things with LS: Immune to Disease. We
do pretty much the same thing with circumstances applying to
Immune to Heat/Cold anyway - it's just not worth the effort to
write them up as attacks.

To get back to the original question, I'd say Disease Man's
attack probably should have been built with the Limitation "Doesn't
work vs. Targets with LS: Disease." If it wasn't, either there's
a reason why normal immunity doesn't stop it, or there was an
oversight in character construction and the GM should pencil in
the limitation.

By the way, if anyone ever does take the trouble to write up
a broad range of illnesses, I'd love to see the results.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:17:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin writes:
> The Amazing Shadrach can safely open the door of a blast furnace and stand
> in front of it, ignoring the 6d6K energy from the incredible heat. He
> suffers no illl effects from this incredible feat, but upon leaving his
> dressing room after the show, he is hit by a 3d6 fire-based Energy Blast
> from a jealous would-be rival. Shadrach suffers 4 BODY and 16 STUN from
> this attack, which is 15 Damage Classes below the one he previously
> ignored. Why? Because he wasn't "prepared" for it? Because no evil
> intent was behind the opening of the furnace door?

As a rule, I only make LS apply against the NND damage -- i.e. LS: heat is
equivalent to air conditioning (so if the fire doesn't get him, it also won't
slowly cook him inside his defenses). YMMV of course, I'm not convinced my
method is correct, but it has the advantage of not causing totally
counterintuitive results.
>
> Spaceman Spiff has a 13-point LS that protects him against vacuum and makes
> his breathing self-contained. Without warning, the hull of his ship is
> breached and he is pulled out into airless space! Oh, no! Does his LS
> protect him? After all, he wasn't prepared for it. Does it work because
> being pulled out into space was not in and of itself an attack, but merely
> the end result of an attack (on his ship, not on him)?

His life support protects him, because damage from vacuum is an NND (vs life
support).
>
> Presume that Spiff in the above example was an alien with natural LS; for
> this next situation, make him a normal human in a vacuum suit. While
> wearing the suit aboard ship, he is attacked by a technomage who uses
> Change Environment to create a vacuum in the room. This is clearly an
> attack. Does Spiff's LS protect him? Yes. But why? Because his LS is in
> a Focus this time? Because Change Environment does no *direct* STUN and
> BODY damage? Or because Change Environment *also* has an irrational flaw
> that prohibits is against having any direct effect on combat?

Well, CE can't create a vacuum, because that would do damage and is therefore
outside of the purview of CE ;). However, if the mage bought the power
legally, it would be an area effect NND vs LS (breathe/pressure), and since
Spiff has the relevant defense, he would ignore the attack.
>
> What I'm trying to find here is not an idea of whether or not LS should
> protect against attacks with the matching special effect.
That's simple: if they're NNDs, it should. If they aren't, and you want that
effect, buy the relevant defense. 3 pts for immunity to a class of NNDs is
about right.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:25:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin writes:
> For this specific example, I might buy "super germs" (mutated strain, for
> example), but try applying this explanation to other SFX and it looks
> silly: super fire? super cold? Remember, these are not measures of
> degree, but of type; what characteristic would "super fire" have that
> ordinary extreme heat would not (other than the ability to bypass LS)?
Here's how I generally interpret the various forms of LS:

Breathing: you may breath, or need not. Generally speaking, this type of
attack will be an NND in the first place, so we don't need to worry.

Eat/Sleep/Excrete: you need not _normally_ do any of these things; your source
of food/whatever is _different_. If you get hit with a 'famine' attack, or a
sleep spell (damaging) you might still be affected, but you will recover from
it in different ways.

Radiation: you are not subject to radiation sickness (which is an NND). Raw
damage from radiation can still hurt you.

Disease: you cannot be affected by normal diseases. Exotic diseases might
still have some effect.

Pressure: you are not subject to the bends, ears popping, etc. Unbalanced
pressure (from a fist, or whatever) can still hurt you, much like it can still
hurt a steel plate.

Heat: either you have air conditioning, or your body can safely be heated (or
cooled) to extreme temperatures without ill effects. In either case, having
your temperature suddenly change may still cause problems.

Aging: you do not normally age. You can still be forced to age by other
factors.

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:26:37 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
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> For Example:
>
> DiseaseMan attacks HeroMan with a 9d6 Con Drain with the special effect
> that he gives the person a disease. HeroMan has Immune to Disease. So
> would DiseaseMan effect HeroMan?

Yup, unless DiseaseMan took a limitation, "not vs targets with
LS:Immune to Disease" at, say, -1/4 or -1/2.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:28:32 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
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> > Life support states that it doesn't stop attacks with this attack form >-- thus, the 9d6 con drain with a 'disease' special effect would not be >stopped, _unless_ it took a limitation 'not vs targets with life >support: disease'.
>
> So what is the advantage of Immune to Disease and how do you explain in
> non-game mechanic terms that DiseaseMan's powers work on HeroMan?

For those "non-attack" diseases. (Which still may have
game mechanics to define effects)

In non-mechanic terms -- the disease is too strong for some
reason, whether technological, magical, or what -- to be stopped by this
plain old immunity. For stronger immunity, buy some power defense, only
vs poisions.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "BS" == BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us> writes:

BS> To get back to the original question, I'd say Disease Man's
BS> attack probably should have been built with the Limitation "Doesn't
BS> work vs. Targets with LS: Disease."

I'd say that Disease Man's attack is an NND attack, with "Life Support
vs. Disease" as the defense.

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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
\ Earth, presumably from outer space.

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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:02:30 -0800
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>>The advantage is you don't catch normal diseases. Disease Man has
'super
>>germs' which the character isn't immune to.

Damon asks:
>For this specific example, I might buy "super germs" (mutated strain,
for
>example), but try applying this explanation to other SFX and it looks
>silly: super fire? super cold? Remember, these are not measures of
>degree, but of type; what characteristic would "super fire" have that
>ordinary extreme heat would not (other than the ability to bypass LS)?

Can you take a hot bath or a steam bath at 150 degrees or so? How about
getting hot coffee spilled on you? The bath is something our bodies
gradually adapt to, and the coffee is instantaneous.

Frogs are boiled live by putting them in warm water, then slowly turning
the temperature up. The water gets warmer and warmer, and it's so
comfortable they don't want to move, and then before they know it,
they're boiling! And the frog never resisted. But if you put a frog into
boiling water, it'll do everything it can to get out.

FireMan can walk through normal fire without a singe, thanks to his LS.
But when Scorcher hits him with a fire attack, the fire is either much
more concentrated (like a flashlight versus a laser), or it's the sudden
nature of the attack that causes system shock.


Dave Mattingly
mattingly@bigfoot.com

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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:04:56 -0800
champ-l@omg.org
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 12:44 PM 3/18/98 -0600, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>What I'm trying to find here is not an idea of whether or not LS should
>protect against attacks with the matching special effect. The BBB is clear
>on that point. It won't. It would be nice to think there is some
>rationale behind making the distinction, apart from "the game would be
>unbalanced if we didn't". Game balance was always the big excuse for the
>AD&D folks, too: elves can't get above "x" level, despite living 10 times
>as long as humans, because elves already have all these other advantages.
>One of those advantages is a higher racial minimum for INT than humans;
>you'd think a few of them would have learned to exploit that and advance
>themselves further. I do think game balance is important. I do not think
>it should be used as a catch-all excuse for every apparent inconsistency in
>the game.

If this really bothers you, I'd recommend eliminating life support, and
make someone who wants to be 'immune to fire' buy a combination of Damage
Reduction and Armor, suitably limited, to the point at which no expected
heat-based effect will harm him.

Vacuum, etc, attacks are usually bought NND, Defense is LS, so they aren't
as much of an issue.

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champ-l@omg.org
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
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At 12:44 PM 3/18/98 -0600, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>What I'm trying to find here is not an idea of whether or not LS should
>protect against attacks with the matching special effect. The BBB is clear
>on that point. It won't. It would be nice to think there is some
>rationale behind making the distinction, apart from "the game would be
>unbalanced if we didn't". Game balance was always the big excuse for the
>AD&D folks, too: elves can't get above "x" level, despite living 10 times
>as long as humans, because elves already have all these other advantages.
>One of those advantages is a higher racial minimum for INT than humans;
>you'd think a few of them would have learned to exploit that and advance
>themselves further. I do think game balance is important. I do not think
>it should be used as a catch-all excuse for every apparent inconsistency in
>the game.

If this really bothers you, I'd recommend eliminating life support, and
make someone who wants to be 'immune to fire' buy a combination of Damage
Reduction and Armor, suitably limited, to the point at which no expected
heat-based effect will harm him.

Vacuum, etc, attacks are usually bought NND, Defense is LS, so they aren't
as much of an issue.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:15:41 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Invaders from Below
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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I'm just curious, has anyone run the full scale invasion from the "Invaders
from Below" supplement? If so, how did it go? I ran a few of the
preliminary scenarios but never got to the invasion. My impression was
that the villain group is kinda goofy, but an invasion storyline could be
fun.

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:15:42 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Stronghold: local chapters?
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Since there's only one Stronghold and it's in Arizona (or is it New
Mexico?), what happens to villain prisoners before they are transported to
Stronghold? I was thinking that each city would have to have a
representative team from Stronghold who knows how to contain villains. The
regular police would only be able to contain a small portion of them. In
C:NM, maybe The Guard fulfills this function....

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X-Sender: nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:30:12 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
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At 12:44 PM 3/18/98 -0600, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>Presume that Spiff in the above example was an alien with natural LS; for
>this next situation, make him a normal human in a vacuum suit. While
>wearing the suit aboard ship, he is attacked by a technomage who uses
>Change Environment to create a vacuum in the room. This is clearly an
>attack. Does Spiff's LS protect him? Yes. But why? Because his LS is in
>a Focus this time? Because Change Environment does no *direct* STUN and
>BODY damage? Or because Change Environment *also* has an irrational flaw
>that prohibits is against having any direct effect on combat?

This example has some additional problems to it - creating a vacuum is a
pretty questionable use of Change Environment, since a vacuum _should_ have
combat effects. Barring a revised Change Environment, the best way to do a
vacuum attack is probably an Area Effect attack with NND, not vs. Life
Support.

Your general point, nevertheless, remains valid. The logic of Life Support
not defending against attacks lies in game balance, not simulation.

>
>What I'm trying to find here is not an idea of whether or not LS should
>protect against attacks with the matching special effect. The BBB is clear
>on that point. It won't. It would be nice to think there is some
>rationale behind making the distinction, apart from "the game would be
>unbalanced if we didn't". Game balance was always the big excuse for the
>AD&D folks, too...[SNIP]

While I agree that Life Support can be a little clunky, I will point out
that Hero _will_ let you come pretty close to full immunity to these
attacks - you just can't do it by only buying Life Support. If Fire Man
buys a high resistant ED, 3/4 Damage Reduction vs. Heat & Fire Attacks, and
LS vs. Heat, he's going to be effectively immune to these attacks. Sure,
he's paid a lot of points for it, but it is a pretty nifty ability and it
should have a significant cost. This is quite different from D&D's blatant
game balance restrictions.

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:30:39 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
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>For this specific example, I might buy "super germs" (mutated strain, for
>example), but try applying this explanation to other SFX and it looks
>silly: super fire? super cold? Remember, these are not measures of
>degree, but of type; what characteristic would "super fire" have that
>ordinary extreme heat would not (other than the ability to bypass LS)?

I sort of measure environmental extremes using this yardstick: Could a
normal, naked human being survive 12 seconds of such an environment without
serious harm? If so, then Life Support will completely defend against it. I
could run for 12 seconds through a room at -50 Centigrade without getting
frostbite. I could survive 12 seconds of +60 Centigrade without getting
burns (though neither would be pleasant). Any longer in either environment
and I'm screwed - unless I've got life support.

It's not a perfect yardstick (12 seconds of hard vacuum is nasty to humans -
not necessarily fatal, but nasty), mind you, but it does serve the purpose.
Anything 'beyond' those levels of exposure couldn't be covered by a simple
Change Environment Power (someone IMC could not buy Change Environment to
produce a Hard Vacuum!). Basically, if it can be bought as a Change
Environment, Life Support will fully defend against it. If it's bought as an
attack power (EB/RKA/Drain), LS isn't good enough.

Somebody pulled out an example of a Blast Furnace. Well, that's definitely
an RKA. Standing near the blast furnace (not in the fire) could probably be
modelled as a Change Environment - so Life Support is enough.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pull order out from chaos? I do that twice a week..."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:35:37 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
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> For this specific example, I might buy "super germs" (mutated strain, for
> example), but try applying this explanation to other SFX and it looks
> silly: super fire? super cold? Remember, these are not measures of
> degree, but of type; what characteristic would "super fire" have that
> ordinary extreme heat would not (other than the ability to bypass LS)?

Lots of force behind the attack. Attacks that are just plain heat
probably should take a limitation, "no vs immune to heat".


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:49:38 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Stronghold: local chapters?
Cc: "\[unknown\]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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---David Stallard wrote:
>
> Since there's only one Stronghold and it's in Arizona (or is it New
> Mexico?), what happens to villain prisoners before they are
transported to
> Stronghold? I was thinking that each city would have to have a
> representative team from Stronghold who knows how to contain
villains. The
> regular police would only be able to contain a small portion of
them. In
> C:NM, maybe The Guard fulfills this function....

As a model for this you might take a look at the Metropolis Special
Crimes Unit from the Superman comics (and cartoons). It's a devision
of the Metropolis Police Dept equipted to handle (some) super villians.
_________________________________________________________
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:49:38 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Stronghold: local chapters?
Cc: "\[unknown\]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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---David Stallard wrote:
>
> Since there's only one Stronghold and it's in Arizona (or is it New
> Mexico?), what happens to villain prisoners before they are
transported to
> Stronghold? I was thinking that each city would have to have a
> representative team from Stronghold who knows how to contain
villains. The
> regular police would only be able to contain a small portion of
them. In
> C:NM, maybe The Guard fulfills this function....

As a model for this you might take a look at the Metropolis Special
Crimes Unit from the Superman comics (and cartoons). It's a devision
of the Metropolis Police Dept equipted to handle (some) super villians.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:08:12 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
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Here's a couple of last-minute notes on things for 5th Edition I forgot
to include on my questionnaire.

Missile Deflection
As currently written, Missile Deflection costs 5 points to work against
thrown objects, 10 points to work against arrows and projectiles, 15 points
to work against bullets or schrapnel, or 20 to work against any ranged attack.
But there's no cost break on attacks for being Deflected more easily,
nor any given structure for determining how easily something is Deflected
other than just Special Effects. There's no reason that Character A's RKA
should be deflected by anyone with Missle Deflection, while Character B's
mechanically identical RKA can only be deflected by the maximum level.
I would recommend that the 5-points level be limited to anything with
the "Can Be Thrown" Advantage or the "Range Limited by Strength" Limitation
(I go into these on my website, and I recommend them and the throwing rules
related to them for Hero5 as well), or any thrown object of opportunity.
However, beyond that level I have no concrete idea.
The maximum level might require a +1/4 "Difficult to Deflect" Advantage,
or some other Advantage, such as "Difficult to Dispel" or "Increased STUN
Multiplier," could be expanded to include it.
An attack with the "Double Knockback" Advantage should require the next
higher level of Missile Deflection. (Or not; I'm just musing here.)

Increased STUN Multiple
I think it's European Enemies where a character is given the odd
combination of Energy Blast with Increased STUN Multiple. Now, this was an
error at the time; in discussion of this a couple of years back, though,
someone came up with a way that this could apply to Energy Blast after all.
Just add +1 to each die, only for purposes of STUN.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:13:14 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Only in Hero ID
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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What are some examples of switching to Hero ID and back, if you don't have
Instant Change? Would this be as simple as just sitting there and
concentrating for a little while?

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:15:27 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
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At 02:38 PM 3/18/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

>>>>>> "BS" == BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us> writes:
>
>BS> To get back to the original question, I'd say Disease Man's
>BS> attack probably should have been built with the Limitation "Doesn't
>BS> work vs. Targets with LS: Disease."
>
>I'd say that Disease Man's attack is an NND attack, with "Life Support
>vs. Disease" as the defense.
>

Why is it that Rat labels all my posts "BS"? :-)

Yes, in most cases an NND attack would make more sense. But if the attack
was a Drain, Transform, or whatever rather than a straight damage attack, I
would probably go the Limitation route. I don't think it's been specified
what Disease Man's attack was supposed to be in the first place.

On a related topic, I made an interesting discovery the other day reading
_The Straight Dope Tells All_. (If you don't know about Cecil Adams's
trivia column, I highly recommend you check out www.straightdope.com.)
Apparently, many occurences of what people assume to be common colds are in
fact not diseases at all, but actually "cold stress." This partially
explains why people get sick from being cold & wet, regardless of exposure
to germs - stress from cold temperatures can cause congestion in the
respiratory system, giving you symptoms very much like an actual cold.

This could make for a fun bit with a Champions character with LS: Immune to
Disease but not Immune to Cold. The day after he raids Dr. Microbe's base,
he finds himself coughing and sneezing, despite his super powers. He's
likely to investigate this new "super-virus", never thinking of the
previous night's stake-out in the rain.

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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Theala Sildorian\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 98 21:17:31
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
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On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:15:02 +0000, Theala Sildorian wrote:

>Now the rules states that you can't have both Secret ID and Public
>ID.

Really? In one of the AC mags it gives ideas for using both.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Salmon, David W\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 98 21:21:56
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Secret ID/Public ID related question
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On Tue, 17 Mar 1998 05:20:24 PST, Salmon, David W wrote:

>Hey Psych Lim fans ...
>
>I ran into an interesting situation designing a character that I need
>some help with. The character in question has to hide his real identity
>for reason "X" so he set himself up a new name with a new SSN and
>everything. Now this character also is a superhero who wants to keep his
>superheroic identity secret. What kind of psych lim's would you give
>him?? Two Secret ID's ??? Is that legal ??

I would suggest just one: the indirection being all part of having of
his efforts to conceal his true identity.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:37:20 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Villain Secret IDs
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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When your villains are arrested, do the cops take off their masks and get
their true identities? I've seen in comics and cartoons that often a
villain is sitting in jail, in full costume. This doesn't seem very
realistic, but it is very tough to re-use your villains after all their
identities have been made public.

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:37:21 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Stronghold: local chapters?
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David Stallard wrote:
>>
>> Since there's only one Stronghold and it's in Arizona (or is it New
>> Mexico?), what happens to villain prisoners before they are
>transported to
>> Stronghold? I was thinking that each city would have to have a
>> representative team from Stronghold who knows how to contain
>villains. The
>> regular police would only be able to contain a small portion of
>them. In
>> C:NM, maybe The Guard fulfills this function....
>

In my longest running Champions campaign, many events surrounded the
construction of a second Stronghold outside Philadelphia. (Stronghold, by
the way, was just about the only Champions universe thing I ever imported
into my game - I have a strong preference for my own creations.)

The Feds decided to build the new Stronghold outside the city because of
all of the superhuman activity (the PCs' adventures) there. When the plans
were announced, a "Not in My Backyard" type of political movement arose,
resulting in quite a bit of public resentment of the PC heroes and some
very touchy crowd control situations. When the actual construction started,
there were numerous attempts by super-criminals to sabotage the project,
and even an attempt to replace the architect with a criminal double hoping
to work in a few secret tunnels.

Meanwhile, in another adventure the PC's apprehended a brutal superhuman
alien invader and turned him over to the authorities. When the construction
of Stronghold East was completed, they were horrified to see their enemy
show up again as Strongarm, the full-time guardian of the super prison
(he'd cut a deal.)

Stronghold East, needless to say, was an inexhaustible source of situations
in my game.

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:45:17 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Stronghold: local chapters?
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At 03:15 PM 3/18/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Since there's only one Stronghold and it's in Arizona (or is it New
>Mexico?), what happens to villain prisoners before they are transported to
>Stronghold? I was thinking that each city would have to have a
>representative team from Stronghold who knows how to contain villains. The
>regular police would only be able to contain a small portion of them. In
>C:NM, maybe The Guard fulfills this function....

In the Champions Universe, this function is (to date) taken by the
regional PRIMUS bases, which are nearly as secure as Stronghold.
(It's for this reason that I've been trying to recommend new bases in
Honolulu, Okinawa, and Wiesbaden, but no luck so far....)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:45:45 +0000
Subject: (Fwd) Re: Help Steve Long! (Re: Villain Secret IDs)
Priority: normal
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> At 05:25 PM 3/18/98 -0500, BILL SVITAVSKY wrote:
> >In my four-color superhero games, I generally assume there's
> >some sort of legal protection of secret identities - an excuse
> >sometimes used in comics.
>
> Maybe it would make sense to have someone from the court sworn to
> keep the Secret ID a secret unless there is a conviction. It just
> seems to me that an identity must be established before criminal
> proceedings can take place.

You are correct. The Sixth Amendment gives defendants the right to
face their accusers. This is why the subject of children testifying
in sexual abuse cases is such a touchy issue--defendants can rightly
claim they are denied their right to face their accusers if the
children are exempt from testimony on the grounds they cannot handle
the stress.

However, I believe Steve has written some things on the subject to
allow superheroes to conceal their identity, some material relating to
supers and the law which was cut from Dark Champions. He reads this
list and I'm sure he could be persuaded to share it, eh Steve? :D

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

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From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:46:03 +0000
Subject: (Fwd) Re: Going to the Source, Part Two
Priority: normal
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> Interestingly enough, it seems like the non-fans are the
> most likely to create the most conventional superheroes.
> Without a strong sense of the range of the genre, they tend
> to work from the popular sense of comics heroes, mimicking the
> portrayals of Superman, Batman, etc. in movies & TV. Often these
> people will also take the characters in the rulebooks as a starting
> point, making characters who are more like Champions heroes than
> like comics heroes. The best role-players, though, can bring ideas
> from many sources, including their own lives, and produce some very
> original heroes.
>

I'd have to disagree with you in part on this one Bill. I'm not much
of a comic reader, and never have been. In fact, I turned down a
chance to learn 1st ed when it first came out because I wasn't
interested in comics. None of the characters I've ever created have
drawn much inspiration from the comics. If they seem similar, it is
purely by accident. I am, howver, a big sci fi/fantasy fiction fan,
and I don't hesitate to steal ideas from time to time from my favorite
stories, but more often than not my characters are my own creations.
I get more satisfaction out of a personality that I created on my own.
The world backdrop might be cookie cutter, but not the personalities
who populate it.




----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:50:17 -0500
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Re: Only in Hero ID
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David Stallard wrote:
> What are some examples of switching to Hero ID and back, if you don't
> have
> Instant Change? Would this be as simple as just sitting there and
> concentrating for a little while?


Ever watch the old 'Incredible Hulk' tv show? Or any of the various
werewolf movies...?

Those are examples of Hero ID without instant change (ignoring the
arguement of wether they should be built with OHID or multiform). The
people change to 'hero' ID, but it is not instantaneous.


Todd


--
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:56:29 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Only in Hero ID
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On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> What are some examples of switching to Hero ID and back, if you don't have
> Instant Change? Would this be as simple as just sitting there and
> concentrating for a little while?

Foci that never or rarely get taken away are an example. Someone mentioned
Iron Man's armor.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:58:47 -0500
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Re: Villain Secret IDs
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David Stallard wrote:
>
> When your villains are arrested, do the cops take off their masks and
> get
> their true identities? I've seen in comics and cartoons that often a
> villain is sitting in jail, in full costume. This doesn't seem very
> realistic, but it is very tough to re-use your villains after all
> their
> identities have been made public.



Jesus David.. do you do anything else besides post to this list all
day???


To answer your question, it's a campaign specific thing. If you want
the cops to de-mask the villians, they do. If you don't they don't.

In my campaign, they do, but not until convicted. Once you become a
convicted felon, you've given up any right to a secret identity. As
long as you are still considered 'innocent', you have the right to
maintain your secret ID.

Most comics seem to support this. When a villian has spent any time in
jail, he is often referred to by his real name in computer files, by law
enforcement personel, etc.

Although, on the other hand, they almost always show the villians in
jail still wearing their mask/costume, so maybe the secret ID is only in
'official' records and is not released to the general public.


Todd
--
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:59:43 -0600
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
Subject: Re: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
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The "+1 STUN Multiple" is the only advantage that adds to the damage
of a power. This makes it extra good for high-advantage-total powers,
and encouraging that by expanding its role seems bad.

(2d6 EB, NND, 0 END is 25 pts for 7 stun average (3.5 pts/pip); each
additional +2 stun pips only costs 5 (2.5 pts/pip))

Donald

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:06:24 -0500
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Only in Hero ID
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David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>>

What are some examples of switching to Hero ID and back, if you don't hav=
e
Instant Change? Would this be as simple as just sitting there and
concentrating for a little while?
<<<

There are plenty of fictional slow transformations, often following
the model of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. It doesn't have to be
"instant" to be a change.

Donning armor for an "Only in Hero ID" is a popular approach on
this list, though I prefer to do most battlesuits as OIF's.

DC's Azrael has arguably had "OiHID" on most of his powers,
though this changes from time to time. In his case, the
transformation is a psychological one, but it's been linked
to his donning of his costume (or at least the mask.)

It would be interesting to have a character whose powers depended
on him acting in a certain role. Just as the Pope is supposedly
infallible when - and only when - he speaks "Ex Cathedra", this
hero would have certain abilities but only when acting in a
particular way for a particular cause. For this to be a legitimate
limitation, of course, the campaign would have to include conflicts
beyond the scope of that cause.

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:20:55 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
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On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:

> The implication is that the character will ALWAYS take THE NORMAL damage
> from ANY AND ALL fire-based attacks, the capitalized words being implied by
> the lack of any qualifiers. Apart from the need to maintain game balance,
> what is the logic behind this?
>
> The Amazing Shadrach can safely open the door of a blast furnace and stand
> in front of it, ignoring the 6d6K energy from the incredible heat. He
> suffers no illl effects from this incredible feat,

I don't agree. Life Support allows you to ignore environmental effects but
not attacks; the corollary in my opinion is that anything which is best
modelled as an ordinary attack isn't an "environmental effect" for
purposes of LS. Life Support vs extreme temperature is for stuff like
Sahara-level heat, not blast furnaces.

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:25:02 -0500
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Villain Secret IDs
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David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> wrote:

>>>>>>

When your villains are arrested, do the cops take off their masks and get=

their true identities? I've seen in comics and cartoons that often a
villain is sitting in jail, in full costume. This doesn't seem very
realistic, but it is very tough to re-use your villains after all their
identities have been made public.

<<<<<<
In my four-color superhero games, I generally assume there's
some sort of legal protection of secret identities - an excuse
sometimes used in comics.

This protection is meant to apply to superheroes, who may very
well be accused of crimes from time to time and even arrested.
Since they're presumed innocent until proven guilty, these heroes
may keep their identities a secret until _convicted_ of a crime.
The same laws apply to the villains, so if they escape before
conviction, their identities are safe.

This can have all sorts of fun implications. I generally present
it as a law of highly questionable constitutionality, but which
has never been struck down because the authorities don't want to
discourage the superheroes whom they might need. But the cynics
know it's a crock, and any cop who doesn't do things "by the book"
will have a decided interest if a character's mask should happen
to, um, "fall off."

Meanwhile, a costumed hero who's been wounded in battle remains
under the protection of this law, even though a mask might be a
barrier to medical treatment. I generally run this with medical
technicians and police officers who are likely to encounter
superheroes carrying disposable paper masks designed to conceal
the identities of wounded supers. More than once, these handy
masks have earned the gratitude of an unwounded super who's
lost his mask in the course of a battle.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:25:25 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Hero Plus opinions?
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On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

> > Funny; I have the reverse problem. In Acrobat I can specify which pages
> > I want, while in HTML I have to guess what page(s) something's on.
>
> I've noted the same. I've personally had no real problems with
> the Acrobat format. It does a great job at cross-platform consistancy.

Except that the Acrobat file used for the Fuzion rules won't load
correctly under ghostscript for Linux, and according to R. Talsorian's
webpage this is deliberate. Whether the same applies to the Hero Plus
stuff I admittedly don't know.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:28:22 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Disadvantages
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On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> Message text written by Curt Hicks
> >Remember that you aren't required to get the full amount of disadvantages.
>
> But if you don't take the full amount of disadvantages, then you have less
> points to spend on your character, which means you are most likely going to
> be weaker than everyone else in the campaign (on both sides).

Disadvantages are supposed to be disadvantageous. If this rule is strictly
adhered to, a character with 250 pts worth of abilities and 150 pts of
Disadvantages isn't going to be any more or less powerful than one who has
100 pts of abilities and no Disadvantages. (Whether this happens in
practice is questionable.)

> This would only work if the GM was willing to modify each and every villain
> so that they were weaker as well.

Is it common for GM's to make their villains before the PC's are made?

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:33:33 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
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On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Rick Holding wrote:

> Okay, lets see. A 50 point pool has a 25 point control cost. Throw in
> a +1 advantage, no time for another 25 points, and a +1 advantage, no skill
> roll required for yet another 25 points. 50 points for the pool and 75
> points for the control.
>
> Now for some disads. -1/4 for 1/2 DCV concentration while changing,
> -1/2 for limited special effect (as per page 116 of the BBB) and some
> gumby -1/4 to be determined by the player to make the maths easier for a
> total of a -1 limitation applied to the control cost making it a 50
> point pool and a 37 point control for a grand total of 87 points which
> allows 100 points of 50 point or less powers.

Hmmm? No, it allows a total of 50 pts of Powers if said Power have no
Limitations, 75 if they all have -1/2, 100 if they all have -1, 150 if
they all have -2, or whatever other combination the character wants.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:41:18 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Is this character too limited?
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On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Brian Wong wrote:

> Then have the character buy two seperate Martial Arts Styles, one
> for the armed combat, one for the unarmed.
> After all, letting a player use the same manuever for fencing and
> for Wing Chun Kung Fu is something most reasonability checks will alarm on.

Not at all. Is there some game-mechanical distinction between a character
who has a single style which allows a Martial Strike to be done with
multiple weapons, and a character with multiple styles, each done with a
different weapon, and each of which includes Martial Strike? No, it's just
special effects; the two are bought the same.

> You shouldn't be buying all your manuevers in one big lump and calling
> it all one single martial style.

No, but you can buy your maneuvers in one big lump and call it a mix of
styles if you like. (This is what the BBB's "Commando Training" is, isn't
it?)

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:42:06 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: The Great Multiform Debate
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On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Brian Wong wrote:

> > Having two separate bodies is only one SFX of Multiform. A body that
> > undergoes a severe change is another.
>
> True. But since the second can be done by adding a limitation to a
> version of the multiform that does no damage carryover, however the first
> could not be done with a version of multiform that did do damage carryover;

Trivial. Use an Aid triggered on changing forms.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:43:50 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Small campaign
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On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:

> Unlike what Hero (in C:NM) and GRG are insisting upon, it's not
> necessary for the PCs to be the "top dog" heroes in the world.

Nobody is insisting that this is necessary, to my knowledge.

> (This is one thing that I'm waiting to see in San Angelo. If there's
> already an established superhero community, then how is it that the PCs,
> who would have to be rank beginners at the start, are already the world's
> Number One hero team? The explanation has *got* to be good!)

Why on Earth would the PCs have to be rank beginners at the start?

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:48:03 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> I didn't consider VPP because it doesn't make sense for this character to
> have a few powers "readied" and have to take time to reshuffle points in
> order to get effects. If he wants to fly, he just sprouts wings out of his
> back...he doesn't need to have flight "on deck" ready for use.

Can this character grow wings, spikes, big hammer-hands, etc, all
simultaneously? If not, VPP seems like the perfect construct. If so, just
buy all the Powers he wants; no Modifiers are really necessary.

> We used Variable Special Effects in several places, though.

I don't see how Variable SFX fits. Don't his Powers all have just the
single special effect "shapeshifting"?

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Damage Shield
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 18 Mar 1998 17:49:02 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "TS" == Theala Sildorian <theala@shore.intercom.net> writes:

TS> How about Damage Shield, Area Effect?

Would not change the way the Damage Shield aspect works. The power would
not have any effect until someone attacks the character, or the character
grabs someone. This is what the Damage Shield does.

Then everyone in the area gets zapped by the DS (including the character).
This is what the AoE does.

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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
Mail-Copies-To: never
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "BS" == Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us> writes:

>> I'd say that Disease Man's attack is an NND attack, with "Life Support
>> vs. Disease" as the defense.

BS> Why is it that Rat labels all my posts "BS"? :-)

Blame your parents for the initials. :)

BS> Yes, in most cases an NND attack would make more sense. But if the
BS> attack was a Drain, Transform, or whatever rather than a straight
BS> damage attack, I would probably go the Limitation route.

Why? NND works the same on a power that normally has Power Defense as a
defense as it does on a power that normallly has Mental Defense or Energy
Defense. Power Defense may be "rare" but it is still a standard defense as
far as game mechanics go. Treating it or powers that have it as a defense
differently from other powers implies that it or those powers are different
from the other powers in the book.

They are not different. When you stop treating them differently you
eliminate this perceived "problem".

Or are people going to insist that Energy Defense be bought with SFX-based
limitations? I mean, why should a supermage's force field spell have any
effect against high-power electromagnetic radiation? Or for that matter,
why should a high-tech force field have any effect on a magical fireball?

You see how silly that can get? Champions powers are designed to be fairly
generic in their mechanics. No power should be required to have a special
effects limitation if the special effects of that power do not warrant it.

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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
\

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:03:04 EST
Subject: Re: Stronghold: local chapters?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

<< I was thinking that each city would have to have a representative team from
Stronghold who knows how to contain villains. >>

Yikes! That's a lot of funding and resources that IMO the feds wouldn't want
to shell out. And it's unnecessary, when all you really need is a Stronghold
transport plane and a good crew ("Paranormal Con Air" anyone? <LOL>).

<< The regular police would only be able to contain a small portion of them.
In
C:NM, maybe The Guard fulfills this function.... >>

In SA:CoH it's P.A.R.T.

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:03:06 -0400 (AST)
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Powers as Disadvantages...
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Remnant wrote:

> >"Storytelling game" and "RPG" are more-or-less synonyms. (More accurately,
> >RPGs are a subset of storytelling games.)
>
> Unless you truly don't know what I mean when I use the term 'storytelling
> game', your argument is spurious.

That wasn't an argument at all, I was simply pointing out a sloppy use of
terminology.

> Also, even more accurately, since any game in which the players are
> assuming roles is an RPG and not just 'storytelling games'. It would
> seem that storytelling games are the subset of RPGs.

This would be true if all storytelling games involved the players
assuming roles, but this is not in fact the case; witness Atlas Games'
"Once Upon a Time", for example.

> >> And, while I've still got my soap box out of the closet, Hero or any
> >> other game like Hero shouldn't be "BALANCED" it should be heavily
> >> weighted to _FUN FUN FUN_ for everybody that is playing in it.
> >
> >Also effectively synonymous.

See, now, this was a spurious argument.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:08:51 EST
Subject: Re: Villain Secret IDs
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

<< When your villains are arrested, do the cops take off their masks and get
their true identities? >>

Heck yes! And they get fingerprinted, cataloged in the FBI file, etc, etc.
Of course, Mental Illusions, Change Environment and Images can play havoc with
both fingerprint cards and computer scanners. ;)

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:10:17 EST
Subject: Re: Stronghold: local chapters?
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<< and San Angelo is going to get a whole new setup of it's own which will be
MUCH more detailed, as it is being written by someone who has worked in
corrections :D>>

Gaviota Island prison is *not* a nice place to work. ;)

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:18:20 -0500
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Going to the Source, Part Two
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A week or so ago, we discussed whether it was necessary to be
a reader of a genre (e.g. superhero comics) in order to play
and/or gamemaster it well. Despite my prejudices against
comic book illiterates :-), I'd have to say we came up with
plenty of good examples of good role-players who weren't
well-versed in their games' genres.

But let's take the question a step further - do you see differences
between Champions players (and GMs) who are comics readers and
those who aren't?

I can almost always tell a comics fan from a non-fan from the
characters they create. And if they're a fan, I can make a
pretty good guess what their tastes are.


Interestingly enough, it seems like the non-fans are the
most likely to create the most conventional superheroes.
Without a strong sense of the range of the genre, they tend
to work from the popular sense of comics heroes, mimicking the
portrayals of Superman, Batman, etc. in movies & TV. Often
these people will also take the characters in the rulebooks as
a starting point, making characters who are more like Champions
heroes than like comics heroes. The best role-players, though,
can bring ideas from many sources, including their own lives, and
produce some very original heroes.

The greatest failing of the comics readers is probably being
too derivative of their source material. This seems to happen most
often with people who haven't read a lot of comics, but have
gotten infatuated with one particular series. I've mentioned before
the first V&V game I ran, when 2/3 of my players told me their
characters were "just like Wolverine." A well-versed comics fan
can get away without much imagination, having 50+ years of ideas
to steal. But I'd say the best role-players among the comics fans
are much like the best of the non-fans, drawing from many sources
and from their own thoughts in creating new heroes.

Any other experiences or views on this?

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:19:43 EST
Subject: Re: Why not official answers
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To: champ-l@omg.org

<< really?? WHERE in the mid-west??>>

Illinois. Springfield, to be precise.

Did I say that already? I must be getting old becuase I forget if I posted
that to the list or not. <LOL>

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:21:05 -0600
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

Rat writes:
>>> I'd say that Disease Man's attack is an NND attack, with "Life Support
>>> vs. Disease" as the defense.
>>
>> Yes, in most cases an NND attack would make more sense. But if the
>> attack was a Drain, Transform, or whatever rather than a straight
>> damage attack, I would probably go the Limitation route.
>
>Why? NND works the same on a power that normally has Power Defense as a
>defense as it does on a power that normallly has Mental Defense or Energy
>Defense. Power Defense may be "rare" but it is still a standard defense as
>far as game mechanics go. Treating it or powers that have it as a defense
>differently from other powers implies that it or those powers are different
>from the other powers in the book.
>
>They are not different. When you stop treating them differently you
>eliminate this perceived "problem".

Obviously, because NND is *still* a +1 Advantage, it's cost-prohibitive
for powers that already have "AVLD" built into their cost structure.

Sure, it makes perfectly good SFX-sense for a Disease attack to be an
NND Transformation, but... c'mon. 15 pts/d6 is already expensive; making
it 30 is ridiculous, especially if the NND makes the power _weaker_ on
the average.


>[Straw Man argument deleted]
>Champions powers are designed to be fairly
>generic in their mechanics. No power should be required to have a special
>effects limitation if the special effects of that power do not warrant it.

I think the point of his argument was, if you already have an AVLD attack
like Drain, putting a "doesn't work vs" limitation on it makes it something
very close to an NND. He's not _requiring_ SFX limitations; he's suggesting
that they're often just as useful as various NNDs.

Compare:

32 4d6 Drain Endurance, -1/4 not vs (LS:Immune to Disease)
80 4d6 Drain Endurance, NND (defense = LS:Immune to Disease or PowDef 10)

They're not all that different, effects-wise. The first is (IMO)
reasonable, and a *lot* less expensive.

Donald

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:25:27 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 03:59 PM 3/18/1998 -0600, Donald Tsang wrote:
>The "+1 STUN Multiple" is the only advantage that adds to the damage
>of a power. This makes it extra good for high-advantage-total powers,
>and encouraging that by expanding its role seems bad.
>
>(2d6 EB, NND, 0 END is 25 pts for 7 stun average (3.5 pts/pip); each
>additional +2 stun pips only costs 5 (2.5 pts/pip))

A restriction against this would clearly be in order, then.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: champion@mailhost.cyberhighway.net
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:34:43 -0800
From: Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Re: Villain Secret IDs
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 04:37 PM 3/18/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>When your villains are arrested, do the cops take off their masks and get
>their true identities? I've seen in comics and cartoons that often a
>villain is sitting in jail, in full costume. This doesn't seem very
>realistic, but it is very tough to re-use your villains after all their
>identities have been made public.

That's a real good reason for villains NOT to get caught. ;-)

The same goes with heroes. Spidey was always on the verge of losing his
Secret ID...that's what the Disad is all about. And if the secret DOES get
out, then those 15 points usually get converted to Hunteds, or DNPCs, or
worse...

I think that IF a villain gets caught, he most certainly should be unmasked
and mugged, printed, and booked. The only reason I can see to NOT remove a
mask, is if it clearly represented some type of life support necessary to
sustain the criminal's life. Removal of that equipment to get an ID could
violate some rights, eh?

I have used the unmasking of villains in games as "you bastard" moments.
The most memorable was many many years ago while running my own variation
of Deathstroke. It turned out that the leader of Deathstroke was actually
Major Brad Barrington of SAT. hehehe The players flipped over that one,
caught totally by surprise.

Jim

_________________________________________________________________
Jim Dickinson -=- Portland, OR USA -=- champion@cyberhighway.net
WWW Role-Playing Resource
Castle Game Knight: http://www.aircyber.net/~jd/cgk
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-----------------------------------------------------------------

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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Rick Holding\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 98 23:36:34
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Modifiers to Characteristics
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:53:51 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:

>Jeff M. Reid wrote:
>> Another thing to consider -- in general, you can't turn off advantages on a
>> power. IOW, if you have an Area Effect Energy Blast, you can't use it as a
>> single target blast. There's no reason to think that wouldn't apply to STR,
>> so if you made your STR area effect, then technically you would always have
>> to use it for at least one hex!. I suppose it's possible to avoid this by
>> placing the Advantage in a multipower, but isn't there a rule somewhere
>> against placing "naked" advantages in a Framework?
>
> Referencing the first half of this paragraph. The BBB states that you do
>not need to use a power at full strength. While this is most commonly assumed
>(and applied) to reduce the amount of dice thrown in an attack, what if it is
>applied to the size of an area effect, or reduce or negate what senses are
>affected? For instance, darkness affects a certain number of senses which are
>brought as extra, +5 per sense, +10 per group. If I reduce the size of the power
>by +10 to remove an entire sense group, is it legal? Also, if I reduce the
>amount of dice thrown in an area effect, does the area get smaller?

Ouch! From a FH POV, I've allowed players to vary Base Points only, not
Advantages. If they want to be able to have the option of using a
particular advantage, they have to buy Variable Advantage (but I allow
Partial Limitations).

But as you point out this doesn't work for non-dice powers. Since these
crop up in FH as spells, I think I'd insist on the whole effect, though
I might allow a group Mind Link to be reduced to a 1:1 Mind Link and
other similarly layered effects.

A suggestion: if this is a one-off, allow it, possibly with an EGO
roll, but if it's a regular occurrence, make it a MultiPower.

Here's looking for ideas!
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:36:54 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
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At 05:57 PM 3/18/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>BS> Yes, in most cases an NND attack would make more sense. But if the
>BS> attack was a Drain, Transform, or whatever rather than a straight
>BS> damage attack, I would probably go the Limitation route.
>
>Why? NND works the same on a power that normally has Power Defense as a
>defense as it does on a power that normallly has Mental Defense or Energy
>Defense. Power Defense may be "rare" but it is still a standard defense as
>far as game mechanics go. Treating it or powers that have it as a defense
>differently from other powers implies that it or those powers are different
>from the other powers in the book.
>
>They are not different. When you stop treating them differently you
>eliminate this perceived "problem".

NND works on a Power that normally has Power Defense as a defense.
However, it does not allow Power Defense to continue working as the
defense, or if it does, it's an all-or-nothing affair based on the amount
of Power Defense the target has (if the defense is 10 points of power
Defense, then 9 points are ineffective, but 10 points is a total defense).
*That* is where the difference is -- not in the base effect, but in the
desired effect.

>Or are people going to insist that Energy Defense be bought with SFX-based
>limitations? I mean, why should a supermage's force field spell have any
>effect against high-power electromagnetic radiation? Or for that matter,
>why should a high-tech force field have any effect on a magical fireball?

This isn't quite a tit-for-tat kind of defense, here. If I have an
attack that takes the form of a cloud of gas, I would normally use NND.
However, it may be of a nature that those with Power Defense can apply that
defense to the STUN damage. At the same time, in either case, someone who
doesn't need to breathe, or who can breathe in heavily gassed areas,
wouldn't be affected by the gas. The logical way to represent this is with
an AVLD with a Limitation (probably -1/4) that it doesn't work against
those with Self-Contained Breathing or Breathing in Gaseous Areas.
And I can't see any special bonus that either this example or the
original one regarding diseases would have to balance this situation,
either. (To use the example you provided yourself, the mage's and tech's
powers ignoring each other's defenses is both logical and balanced, in a
"sauce for the goose" sort of way.) If you can come up with a reasonably
balancing bonus for this Life Support question, then I'd probably go along
with your position on this.

>You see how silly that can get? Champions powers are designed to be fairly
>generic in their mechanics. No power should be required to have a special
>effects limitation if the special effects of that power do not warrant it.

I don't think anyone would disagree with that statement. This is a
fairly significant case, though, at least in a traditional superhero world.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
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Date: 18 Mar 1998 18:47:15 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "DT" == Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org> writes:

DT> Compare:

DT> 32 4d6 Drain Endurance, -1/4 not vs (LS:Immune to Disease)
DT> 80 4d6 Drain Endurance, NND (defense = LS:Immune to Disease or PowDef 10)

DT> They're not all that different, effects-wise. The first is (IMO)
DT> reasonable, and a *lot* less expensive.

This is what I am talking about. The second power is so badly written up
that I'm not even going to bother saying any more about it.

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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
\ Earth, presumably from outer space.

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:47:38 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Only in Hero ID
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At 05:06 PM 3/18/1998 -0500, BILL SVITAVSKY wrote:
>David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>>>
>
>What are some examples of switching to Hero ID and back, if you don't hav=
>e
>Instant Change? Would this be as simple as just sitting there and
>concentrating for a little while?
><<<
>
>There are plenty of fictional slow transformations, often following
>the model of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. It doesn't have to be
>"instant" to be a change.

The Hulk and Iron Man have also been mentioned; the Power Rangers might
arguably fit this category as well.

>Donning armor for an "Only in Hero ID" is a popular approach on
>this list, though I prefer to do most battlesuits as OIF's.

Me, I like the Battlesuit Limitation that Sean Fannon has on his website.
The URL for the main page is http://www.io.com/~wileyc/champ/index.html
if you want to check it out, which I recommend.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:48:30 -0500
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
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At 05:57 PM 3/18/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

>BS> Yes, in most cases an NND attack would make more sense. But if the
>BS> attack was a Drain, Transform, or whatever rather than a straight
>BS> damage attack, I would probably go the Limitation route.
>
>Why? NND works the same on a power that normally has Power Defense as a
>defense as it does on a power that normallly has Mental Defense or Energy
>Defense. Power Defense may be "rare" but it is still a standard defense as
>far as game mechanics go. Treating it or powers that have it as a defense
>differently from other powers implies that it or those powers are different
>from the other powers in the book.
>

I've mentioned that I'm pretty reluctant to allow unlimited Power Defense,
since it's tough to come up with an appropriate special effect. But it's
possible that a target might have relevent Power Defense (say, a mystical
aura of protection) which would defend against Disease Man's attack, while
Life Support vs. Disease would cancel it all together. Ergo, the attack
would not be NND.

And, as someone else has already mentioned, an NND Transform gets really
expensive for not much benefit.

>They are not different. When you stop treating them differently you
>eliminate this perceived "problem".
>
>Or are people going to insist that Energy Defense be bought with SFX-based
>limitations? I mean, why should a supermage's force field spell have any
>effect against high-power electromagnetic radiation? Or for that matter,
>why should a high-tech force field have any effect on a magical fireball?
>
>You see how silly that can get? Champions powers are designed to be fairly
>generic in their mechanics. No power should be required to have a special
>effects limitation if the special effects of that power do not warrant it.
>

I agree absolutely that powers should not be limited if their SFX don't
warrant it - my point is that it's tough to come up with plausible SFX for
unlimited Power Defense. I'll grant that the SFX of ED can be pretty broad,
but it isn't beyond the reach of suspension of disbelief that a good
insulating defense will reduce the damage from heat, cold, electricity, and
mystical energy. But what justifies unlimited Power Defense? In my
experience, that defense is usually chosen by players making a strategic
decision: "I need a defense against Drains & Transforms." Their
construction seems more like rationalization than simulation.

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:01:04 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Villain Secret IDs
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At 04:37 PM 3/18/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>When your villains are arrested, do the cops take off their masks and get
>their true identities? I've seen in comics and cartoons that often a
>villain is sitting in jail, in full costume. This doesn't seem very
>realistic, but it is very tough to re-use your villains after all their
>identities have been made public.

The tendency in the CU has been to simply assume that they got put in
prison and were unmasked, but for whatever reason (usually something never
revealed to the reader) the authorities couldn't determine the crooks'
actual names and such, at least in most cases.
In recent writings this trend has waned considerably. Now, if a villain
has a Secret Identity, it's because (1) he's never been caught (usually
because he's either quite good or quite new), (2) the press has some reason
for not revealing it, or at least not mentioning it repeatedly (usually
because it's not that interesting), and the villain thinks he can still
conceal it from most of the public, or (3) there was some legitimate reason
that the criminal's true identity couldn't be discovered.
(Foxbat is one of those characters who *definitely* should have both
Public Identity and Secret Identity. I wouldn't be surprised if everyone
knows who he is, but he's enough of a loon that he'd probably protect the
secret anyway just because it's traditional, not to mention part of his
Master Plan.)
And it's not that hard to re-use villains whose true names are public.
It's just a complication for the villain to deal with. The public knows
(at least in the animated Batman series) that Edward Nygma is the Riddler,
Harvey Dent is Two-Face, and Pamela Isley is Poison Ivy. That doesn't stop
them from coming back to plague Bats from time to time.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:14:59 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Villain Secret IDs
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At 05:25 PM 3/18/1998 -0500, BILL SVITAVSKY wrote:
>In my four-color superhero games, I generally assume there's
>some sort of legal protection of secret identities - an excuse
>sometimes used in comics.
>
>This protection is meant to apply to superheroes, who may very
>well be accused of crimes from time to time and even arrested.
>Since they're presumed innocent until proven guilty, these heroes
>may keep their identities a secret until _convicted_ of a crime.
>The same laws apply to the villains, so if they escape before
>conviction, their identities are safe.

That may be so, but as Mark so rightfully points out, anyone who is
arrested, whether wearing a costume or not, gets fingerprinted, unmasked,
photographed, and so forth. In the real world, refusing to reveal your
identity when asked by law enforcement authorities in a booking situation
can itself be taken as obstruction of justice (or some other charge?
Steve?), and it wouldn't be hard to get a conviction on that, thus blasting
the protection you describe out of the water.
However, as (I think) Todd pointed out, whatever loss of protection a
person suffers could extend no further than the law enforcement
authorities, at least until the accused is actually convicted. So the cops
know, but not the press.

>This can have all sorts of fun implications. I generally present
>it as a law of highly questionable constitutionality, but which
>has never been struck down because the authorities don't want to
>discourage the superheroes whom they might need. But the cynics
>know it's a crock, and any cop who doesn't do things "by the book"
>will have a decided interest if a character's mask should happen
>to, um, "fall off."

Interesting. Questionable constitutionality? I treat it as an
extension of the Constitutional "right to privacy," and protection against
unwarranted search and seizure. (Yes, I know that the logic is spurious.
It wouldn't be the first time that the Supreme Court made a screwy ruling.
Besides, it's a less spurious position than the reverse, at least as I see
it.)

>Meanwhile, a costumed hero who's been wounded in battle remains
>under the protection of this law, even though a mask might be a
>barrier to medical treatment. I generally run this with medical
>technicians and police officers who are likely to encounter
>superheroes carrying disposable paper masks designed to conceal
>the identities of wounded supers. More than once, these handy
>masks have earned the gratitude of an unwounded super who's
>lost his mask in the course of a battle.

Just as a thought, but couldn't a med tech claim "privileged
information" on a superhero's secret identity?
---
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From: Doc Tough <DocTough@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:21:00 EST
Subject: Re: Hexes (stretching)
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In a message dated 98-03-17 22:22:03 EST, you write:

<< ><< 1" of stretching adds 1 inch to the basic 1" you already have, so you
can
> hit anyone in the ring of hexes around the ring of 6 hexes around the one
> in which you stand.>>
>
> Are you implying that characters have a reach of six and a half feet?!
>That seems very unreasonable. Its more likely that characters should be
able
>to reach around the hex they are standing in (this includes modest moving
>around), but no more.

Why does it seem so unreasonable that a character with 1" of Stretching
should have a reach of six and a half feet?
--- >>

Doc sez...

A character with 1" of Stretching, yes, but not your basic character
without it.

Doc Tough

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:21:58 -0600
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
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Rat writes:
>> Compare:
>>
>> 32 4d6 Drain Endurance, -1/4 not vs (LS:Immune to Disease)
>> 80 4d6 Drain Endurance, NND (defense = LS:Immune to Disease or PowDef 10)
>>
>> They're not all that different, effects-wise. The first is (IMO)
>> reasonable, and a *lot* less expensive.
>
>This is what I am talking about. The second power is so badly written up
>that I'm not even going to bother saying any more about it.

Say more, please. I, for one, would not allow LS:ItD as the sole defense
for an NND, since it's so rare. It's traditional to "shore up" an NND's
defense list with another defense at greater-than-minimum power, such as
Flash Def 10, Mental Def 15, or Power Def 10.

But let's just say it's "badly written up", Rat. How would you write
an END Drain whose SFX is "temporarily weakened by disease", with the
appropriate power modifiers to fit the SFX? You yourself argued against
the limitation route, and for the NND route...

[quoting Rat replying to "BS"]
>>[with drain...] I would probably go the Limitation route.
>
>Why? NND works the same on a power that normally has Power Defense as a
>defense as it does on a power that normallly has Mental Defense or Energy
>Defense.

Which way is it going to be?

-----

Donald

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:27:47 -0800
From: Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Re: Villain Escapes
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Boy this would be fun to try to find creative ways to STOP a villain from
getting away. Heroes can't be everywhere all the time. And seeing such
opportunity as Mark presents below for escapes, can you begin to imagine
the overtime heroes would have to put in to ensure a villain actually made
it to prison? (especially if the government was having budget troubles, or
was "shut down" due to budget problems)

At 12:21 PM 3/18/98 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
> Enroute to jail -- Once the cops transport the villain and the villain
>regains his senses, do you *really* think a police car or paddy wagon is
going
>to hold them? Granted, this works less well if the cops are *geared* for
>transporting villains, although some types are easier to control than others
>(can anyone say Mentalists?).

I have been in scenarios where the heroes HAD to escort the bad guys to the
jail, just to make sure they got there. Inevitably, some "friend" of the
prisoner would show up to help break them out. In one scenario I ran a
long time ago, the Ultimates were defeated by our gallant heroes...all were
captured but Slick, Blackstar, and Binder, who managed to get away. The
next MANY episodes, our heroes were met with the fury of the villains (now
with nothing better to do) who got away, who attacked them in many ways,
both from surprise, and from the media, and from every other venue I could
think of. Eventually, a fight broke out in the courtroom during the
captured villains' trial, and the team got away.

I can tell you that even though these heroes didn't get a Hunted for their
trouble, they were watching around every corner, always looking back over
their shoulder...and watching every word that came out of their mouths,
because they knew that the remaining Ultimates were calling in EVERY favor
they had to bring social, political, mental, and physical grief to these
heroes.

> Booking -- Let's assume the villain goes without a fight. Suddenly they're
>getting ready to undress him (part of the procedure; switching street
>"clothes" for jail clothes). He gopes nuts,

Interesting typo. Was that "gropes" or "goes" ;-)

> Inside the cell -- Jail inmates have littel to do except plan and scheme.
>They get their 1 hours a day rec time, they're shower every two days, and
>inmates on good behavior may qualify for work details (laundry, kitchen,
>etc.). Does the villain fly? Maybe he's unloading the laundry truck at the
>back dock and suddenly looks up into the sky... where there is no chainlink
>barrier. ;)

There are also lots of stories on cop shows like "Walker" and "Law and
Order" and "Nash Bridges" where bad guys have committed crimes vicariously
FROM prison. They get visitations, phone calls, and if they are lucky,
greedy/crooked guards/wardens.

> Court -- Villains who actually go to court have another ample
opportunity to
>escape, though this makes their conviction much, much more likely (Judges
>would likely slap a no-bail warrant down in a heartbeat for someone escaping
>from their very courtroom -- the nerve of that villain!). All but the most
>dangerous/high-risk inmates are usually allowed to sit in court without
>handcuffs on during court preceedings. Of course they go back on once out of
>the court room, but still... Really bad guys will have not just handcuffs but
>a belly chain and leg shackles (no joke!) and maybe even a stun belt (like a
>Stun gun, but works via contacts in the belt and controlled by a remote
>control unit carried by one of the escort officers).

The Ultimates fight broke out in a court room. I remember the comic relief
of the Judge pounding his gavel and yelling "Order! Order!"...but only on
phases 6 and 12!

> Court appearances can be waived, but typically the villain will be in court
>for: the arraignment, the pre-trial, the trial, and the sentencing (assuming
>he's found guilty). I prefer to let the villain stay on good behavior for the
>first appearance, while he surveys the court room and security, etc. Then on
>the second appearance (after making phone calls to his buddies, if necessary,
>from jail) he makes his escape!

So maybe supervillains need to be arraigned in a stronghold-secure
courtroom. Maybe Steve Long can comment on some legalities of where the
line has to be drawn on how much the courts can restrict access of the
accused. Could it possible to perform a trial over a video/satellite feed?
What about using a "proxy" defendant?

> Transport to Prison -- Okay, he's been good all this time, found guilty and
>has been pickedup by the state prison guys for his trip to the hoosegow.
>That's usually a plain, unmarked white van with bars in the windows. Again,
>not too tough to get out for a super, IMO.

So what precautions should our heroes take to prevent an escape at this
point? Maybe they could follow along in Secret or Hero ID, maybe riding
shotgun? Maybe they will just have to look on from afar, to be sure that
the deliver is made ok. What a pain it is to be a hero!

Jim

_________________________________________________________________
Jim Dickinson -=- Portland, OR USA -=- champion@cyberhighway.net
WWW Role-Playing Resource
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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:31:11 -0600
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
Subject: Re: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
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To: champ-l@omg.org

Bob Greenwade writes:
>At 03:59 PM 3/18/1998 -0600, Donald Tsang wrote:
>>The "+1 STUN Multiple" is the only advantage that adds to the damage
>>of a power. This makes it extra good for high-advantage-total powers,
>>and encouraging that by expanding its role seems bad.
>>
>>(2d6 EB, NND, 0 END is 25 pts for 7 stun average (3.5 pts/pip); each
>>additional +2 stun pips only costs 5 (2.5 pts/pip))
>
> A restriction against this would clearly be in order, then.

I would prefer the restriction be "can only be bought on KAs", or even
better, "this advantage is illegal". There's no real reason for it.

If you want to do more STUN, make the attack bigger and take a -0
limitation "does half BODY" or something. Geez.

Donald

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:32:45 -0800
From: Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Re: Villain Secret IDs
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At 04:58 PM 3/18/98 -0500, Todd Hanson wrote:
>In my campaign, they do, but not until convicted. Once you become a
>convicted felon, you've given up any right to a secret identity. As
>long as you are still considered 'innocent', you have the right to
>maintain your secret ID.

Boy, to me that opens up the possibilities WIDE. Imagine a villain that
manages somehow to switch places with someone else...because of the mask,
it would be hard to prove that the "innocent" man now behind the mask was
the original criminal in the first place.

I'm no lawyer, but it seems to me that establishing the identity of the
alleged criminal is pretty important to do BEFORE you convict him. No?

Without a true identity (fingerprints, DNA, mug shots), you are convicting
a costume, not a man.

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X-Sender: naneiden@mail.iswest.com
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:43:46 -0800
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com>
Subject: P.A.R.T. [was: Re: Stronghold: local chapters?]
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At 06:03 PM 3/18/98 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
>
><< The regular police would only be able to contain a small portion of them.
>In
>C:NM, maybe The Guard fulfills this function.... >>
>
> In SA:CoH it's P.A.R.T.
>

You just know, after trashing some P.A.R.T. agents, some villain is going
to say, "P.A.R.T.s is Parts." :)

-Nic


+------------------------------------------------------+
| naneiden@iswest.com |
| Justice, Like Lightning, Thunderbolts! |
| http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/thunder.html |
| Costumed Heroines |
| http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/ |
+------------------------------------------------------+

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:46:47 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Going to the Source, Part Two
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At 06:18 PM 3/18/1998 -0500, BILL SVITAVSKY wrote:
>Interestingly enough, it seems like the non-fans are the
>most likely to create the most conventional superheroes.
>Without a strong sense of the range of the genre, they tend
>to work from the popular sense of comics heroes, mimicking the
>portrayals of Superman, Batman, etc. in movies & TV. Often
>these people will also take the characters in the rulebooks as
>a starting point, making characters who are more like Champions
>heroes than like comics heroes. The best role-players, though,
>can bring ideas from many sources, including their own lives, and
>produce some very original heroes.
>
>The greatest failing of the comics readers is probably being
>too derivative of their source material. This seems to happen most
>often with people who haven't read a lot of comics, but have
>gotten infatuated with one particular series. I've mentioned before
>the first V&V game I ran, when 2/3 of my players told me their
>characters were "just like Wolverine." A well-versed comics fan
>can get away without much imagination, having 50+ years of ideas
>to steal. But I'd say the best role-players among the comics fans
>are much like the best of the non-fans, drawing from many sources
>and from their own thoughts in creating new heroes.
>
>Any other experiences or views on this?

These are, of course, to be expected. When one is early in the creative
process, one tends to be derivative of the similar material with which one
is familiar. Thus, non-comic fans will derive from the more familiar
sources of TV superheroes (Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Spider-Man,
Hulk) or from other examples given (the BBB Champions), while comics nuts
will focus in on their favorite characters in that genre (Wolverine, Spawn,
Venom, et al). Only with experience does creative originality come forth
-- to say nothing of the ability you cite, to draw ideas from a variety of
different sources.
Something I try to do when I find a character overly derivative of an
existing comics character is to ask the player to throw in elements of
another. (In more recent terms, this would be an Amalgamation.) One guy
decided to combine elements of Iron Man into his Wolver-clone, and got a
powered armor with claws. While this wasn't extremely clever and ended up
being the most rules-abusive character I've ever had the displeasure of
GMing over, it had the virtue of being different from existing characters.
As to multiple people who all want to run Wolverine clones, it's
actually possible to turn this to the GM's advantage. Create a campaign
where some evil scientist wanted to build an army of super-soldiers, a
bunch of guys with super-fast healing and steel claws on their hands. But
they turn against him, and decide to fight for good instead. This leads to
a good overall campaign Hunter, and can inspire even more complications
(suppose they have no memories of their past lives; they could struggle for
memories for months or years, only to learn that they're artificial
life-forms). Just make sure that each character has some unusual "twist"
and it should work out OK.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:49:33 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 06:47 PM 3/18/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "DT" == Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org> writes:
>
>DT> Compare:
>
>DT> 32 4d6 Drain Endurance, -1/4 not vs (LS:Immune to Disease)
>DT> 80 4d6 Drain Endurance, NND (defense = LS:Immune to Disease or
PowDef 10)
>
>DT> They're not all that different, effects-wise. The first is (IMO)
>DT> reasonable, and a *lot* less expensive.
>
>This is what I am talking about. The second power is so badly written up
>that I'm not even going to bother saying any more about it.

What's the problem? It is, after all, exactly what you were proposing.
Or were you proposing that the 4d6 Drain Endurance should simply not
work against characters with LS vs Disease, purely be reason of Special
Effect?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:50:36 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Why not official answers
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At 06:19 PM 3/18/1998 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
> << really?? WHERE in the mid-west??>>
>
> Illinois. Springfield, to be precise.
>
> Did I say that already? I must be getting old becuase I forget if I posted
>that to the list or not. <LOL>

Well, *I* sure don't remember it....
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:51:46 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Why not official answers
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> Illinois. Springfield, to be precise.
>
> Did I say that already? I must be getting old becuase I forget if I posted
> that to the list or not. <LOL>

Damn. And I'm leaviing the area this year. (Jacksonville, 30
minutes away).


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:00:31 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
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On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Donald Tsang wrote:

> Bob Greenwade writes:
> >At 03:59 PM 3/18/1998 -0600, Donald Tsang wrote:
> >>The "+1 STUN Multiple" is the only advantage that adds to the damage
> >>of a power. This makes it extra good for high-advantage-total powers,
> >>and encouraging that by expanding its role seems bad.
> >>
> >>(2d6 EB, NND, 0 END is 25 pts for 7 stun average (3.5 pts/pip); each
> >>additional +2 stun pips only costs 5 (2.5 pts/pip))
> >
> > A restriction against this would clearly be in order, then.
>
> I would prefer the restriction be "can only be bought on KAs", or even
> better, "this advantage is illegal". There's no real reason for it.
>
> If you want to do more STUN, make the attack bigger and take a -0
> limitation "does half BODY" or something. Geez.

I, too, am in favor of ditching +1 Stun Multiplier entirely. In fact, I
wouldn't mind if HA, EB, RKA, and HKA were all combined into a single
power using the EB mechanics...

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:10:35 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Villain Secret IDs
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At 04:37 PM 3/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
>When your villains are arrested, do the cops take off their masks and get
>their true identities? I've seen in comics and cartoons that often a
>villain is sitting in jail, in full costume. This doesn't seem very
>realistic, but it is very tough to re-use your villains after all their
>identities have been made public.

Ive always had their identities found by the authorities, but not released
to the public... in a privacy clause passed by Viper influenced people a few
decades ago. So the general public doesn't know (any more than they
typically do about the alleged murderer you read about in the paper unless
he drives his bronco down the freeway at 40 miles an hour).

----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:27:09 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: P.A.R.T. [was: Re: Stronghold: local chapters?]
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At 04:43 PM 3/18/1998 -0800, Nic Neidenbach wrote:
>At 06:03 PM 3/18/98 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
>>
>><< The regular police would only be able to contain a small portion of them.
>>In
>>C:NM, maybe The Guard fulfills this function.... >>
>>
>> In SA:CoH it's P.A.R.T.
>>
>
>You just know, after trashing some P.A.R.T. agents, some villain is going
>to say, "P.A.R.T.s is Parts." :)

Or someone is going to come up with another agency, either a villainous
organization in VIPER's mold or a support organization like Aftermath Inc.,
that goes by the name of P.A.R.C.E.L.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: champion@mailhost.cyberhighway.net
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:36:44 -0800
From: Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Help Steve Long! (Re: Villain Secret IDs)
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At 05:25 PM 3/18/98 -0500, BILL SVITAVSKY wrote:
>In my four-color superhero games, I generally assume there's
>some sort of legal protection of secret identities - an excuse
>sometimes used in comics.

Maybe it would make sense to have someone from the court sworn to keep the
Secret ID a secret unless there is a conviction. It just seems to me that
an identity must be established before criminal proceedings can take place.

Steve has a background in law, which explains the GREAT source material in
Dark Champs.

Steve:

What does the current law say about the disclose of a suspect's ID to the
public, etc?

What do you do in your campaigns?

Thanks for your answers,
Jim

_________________________________________________________________
Jim Dickinson -=- Portland, OR USA -=- champion@cyberhighway.net
WWW Role-Playing Resource
Castle Game Knight: http://www.aircyber.net/~jd/cgk
Join the Circle of HEROs: http://www.aircyber.net/coh
-----------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:39:47 -0800
From: Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Re: Villain Secret IDs
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At 06:08 PM 3/18/98 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< When your villains are arrested, do the cops take off their masks and get
>their true identities? >>
>
> Heck yes! And they get fingerprinted, cataloged in the FBI file, etc, etc.
>Of course, Mental Illusions, Change Environment and Images can play havoc
with
>both fingerprint cards and computer scanners. ;)

And so what comes of heroes who are falsely arrested for a crime they are
innocent of? Is their Secret ID now public record?

Jim

_________________________________________________________________
Jim Dickinson -=- Portland, OR USA -=- champion@cyberhighway.net
WWW Role-Playing Resource
Castle Game Knight: http://www.aircyber.net/~jd/cgk
Join the Circle of HEROs: http://www.aircyber.net/coh
-----------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:50:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Villain Secret IDs
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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Jim Dickinson writes:
>
> And so what comes of heroes who are falsely arrested for a crime they are
> innocent of? Is their Secret ID now public record?

Depends on the realism level of the game ;). In a realistic game, the answer
is 'yes'. In a more cinematic game, its possible that the cops will choose to
delay on checking, for whatever reason (probably because they don't entirely
believe in your guilt).

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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:32:23 EST
Subject: Re: P.A.R.T. [was: Re: Stronghold: local chapters?]
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<< You just know, after trashing some P.A.R.T. agents, some villain is going
to say, "P.A.R.T.s is Parts." :)>>

Youproceed from the assumption that villains are going to trounce the
P.A.R.T. team. Well, maybe with their initial write-ups (in SA:CoH) but
certainly not the write-ups in the P.A.R.T. sourcebook! :D Of course, there
will always be those supers that are tough to handle, necessitating P.A.R.T.
calling the PCs...

Mark @ GRG

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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:35:58 EST
Subject: Re: Villain Secret IDs
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<< Ive always had their identities found by the authorities, but not released
to the public... >>

That's great for comics and comic-styled games, but...

<< So the general public doesn't know (any more than they typically do about
the alleged murderer you read about in the paper unless he drives his bronco
down the freeway at 40 miles an hour).>>

What about court documents? Most are public record. And criminal files? A
portion of those can be accessed by the public. Or DMV files? The average Joe
may not know who the alleged murderer is... *until* the reporter at the
courthouse digs up the details (from the court record, DA's criminal complain,
the police report, etc.) and then prints a story on him! ;)

Mark @ GRG

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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:37:32 EST
Subject: Typo (was Re: Villain Escapes)
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<< Interesting typo. Was that "gropes" or "goes" ;-) >>

You are a sick individual. :D

Mark @ GRG

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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:38:29 EST
Subject: More typos (was Re: Villain Escapes)
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<< littel ... they're shower... >>

Man, I'm typing waaay too fast.

Mark @ GRG

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:38:30 -0800
From: Clinton Chard <chud@pioneer.net>
Subject: UNTIL info
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Does anybody know of a great sourceof info on UNTIL? I have had no luck
in finding anything on the organization. I have used PRIMUS as a stencil
for UNTIL, but I would prefer the actual write-ups.

--
"Contrariwise," Continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be; and if
it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic."
-Lewis Carroll

Clinton Chard


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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:41:22 EST
Subject: Re: Villain Escapes
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<< So what precautions should our heroes take to prevent an escape at this
point?>>

"Should" or "can?" In both cases I would say "Not much." Keep in mind that
while all of this stuff is going on, there are also *other* villains vying for
the heroes' attention. ;) And thus the circle starts anew...

Mark @ GRG

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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:43:57 EST
Subject: Re: Villain Secret IDs
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<< Removal of that equipment to get an ID could violate some rights, eh? >>

Taking a photograph would certainly be viewed as less important than
allowing a prisoner to maintain his life support. Of course, he also wouldn't
be allowed to *leave* until they found some way to verify his ID, even if it
has to be done at a hospital, special lab, etc. (with appropriate levels of
security). Now *that* would make a neat adventure!

"Grok-man is escaping from the med center!"

"But I thought he was in jail."

"He is! Well, he was, sorta... Agh! Come on!"

Mark @ GRG

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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:47:24 EST
Subject: Re: Villain Secret IDs
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<< And so what comes of heroes who are falsely arrested for a crime they are
innocent of? Is their Secret ID now public record? >>

Unless a judge orders the info kept confidential, you're darn tootin'! Of
course, this is in *my* game, and not necessarily the official ruling of Gold
Rush Games! :D

Mark @ GRG

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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:51:00 EST
Subject: Re: Villain Secret IDs
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<< In a realistic game, the answer is 'yes'. In a more cinematic game, its
possible that the cops will choose to delay on checking, for whatever reason
(probably because they don't entirely believe in your guilt). >>

Well, your logic could be applied to a "realistic" game, too. I have heard
of situations where an officer delayed making an arrest because of
"extenuating circumstances." The same could certainly happen in jail,
especially if the super in question had a fan, admirer or supporter (or a
DNPC?) or two among the staff.

"Ryans, where's that ID on the cape?"

"Darn, Sarge. I forgot to run those prints. I'll do it asap."

[Four hours later]

"Ryans, got that ID yet?"

"The computer was down I'll get to it right away."

"Grrrmble"

Mark @ GRG

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:06:19 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Going to the Source, Part Two
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> existing comics character is to ask the player to throw in elements of
> another. (In more recent terms, this would be an Amalgamation.) One guy
> decided to combine elements of Iron Man into his Wolver-clone, and got a
> powered armor with claws. While this wasn't extremely clever and ended up
> being the most rules-abusive character I've ever had the displeasure of
> GMing over, it had the virtue of being different from existing characters.

Reminds me of a character I made up for my girlfriend. Web is a
powered armor character with an Electro-Web thingy sort of like
SpiderWoman.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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From: Pat10355 <Pat10355@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:19:11 EST
Subject: Re: Small campaign
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On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:

> Unlike what Hero (in C:NM) and GRG are insisting upon, it's not
> necessary for the PCs to be the "top dog" heroes in the world.

> (This is one thing that I'm waiting to see in San Angelo. If there's
> already an established superhero community, then how is it that the PCs,
> who would have to be rank beginners at the start, are already the world's
> Number One hero team? The explanation has *got* to be good!)

San Angelo: City of Heroes doesn't require the PCs to be the top superheroes
in the world, or even in the city. It just allows them to be, by not pre-
defining the NPC hero team as the most powerful and most famous team in the
world.

If you want to run a lower-powered or underground team, I think the book will
support that as well -- the Justice Foundation hero team is set up as a very
public, fairly well-regarded team that could easily fill the "top spot" in the
city.

It's just not mandatory that they fill that slot if you'd rather put your PCs
there. :)

Patrick Sweeney

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:28:21 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Villain Secret IDs
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> I'm no lawyer, but it seems to me that establishing the identity of the
> alleged criminal is pretty important to do BEFORE you convict him. No?
>
> Without a true identity (fingerprints, DNA, mug shots), you are convicting
> a costume, not a man.

Sure, but if that is mixed with some sort of special
identification, be it voice print, dna, retna scan, etc, you can keep a
file on the legal individual of "Ultraboy" or whatnot. You don't know
that he is Bob Smith, at least, not until he is convicted.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:37:34 EST
Subject: Re: Small campaign
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<< Unlike what Hero (in C:NM) and GRG are insisting upon, it's not necessary
for the PCs to be the "top dog" heroes in the world. >>

Hold on there a second, pardner. No one has been insisting that your PCs
*have* to be top dogs in their world. All we've said is that our product line
and campaign setting will make the assumption that they are. This is in
contrast to the 4th Ed Champions Universe products which always featured the
Champions hero team as the main heroes (at least on the book covers <G>).

The decision to promote the PCs as the top heroes in the city was in
response to some casual market research, fan requests, and discussion between
GRG and Hero Games. It's nothing of a mandate, though.

<< If there's already an established superhero community, then how is it that
the PCs, who would have to be rank beginners at the start, are already the
world's Number One hero team? The explanation has *got* to be good!) >>

You are making several erroneous statements here. First off, the PCs do not
have to be rank beginners. They can have been around for a while. A heroe's
experience is morte than just his "EP" total. Experience can also be reflected
in their background, powers, skill levels, and so on.

Secondly, no one ever said the PCs were assumed to be the world's number one
hero team. We said they were assumed to be top dogs in the campaign city, not
the world. ;) And that's in the published material. It's elementary to change
that fact in your own campaign, just as folks have been doing with RPG
products for years.

<< San Angelo: City of Heroes doesn't require the PCs to be the top
superheroes
in the world, or even in the city. It just allows them to be, by not pre-
defining the NPC hero team as the most powerful and most famous team in the
world. >>

And then there's that. :)

Mark @ GRG

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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:40:15 EST
Subject: Re: Villain Secret IDs
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<< ...you can keep a file on the legal individual of "Ultraboy" or whatnot. >>

That's assuming that the campaign allows for dual legal "identities." In a
stricter setting, there can be only one "you." Or, rather, only "John Doe" or
"Ultraboy" can be tried, not both... unless they are shown to be one and the
same. ;)

Mark @ GRG

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Subject: Making a difference (was Re: huge dudes with capes)
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:03:45 EST
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>I have to admit, I have to wonder why Tony Stark never built a limited
>version of his armour for firefighters. He walks through flames and
>explosions on a regular basis.

And can you imagine the tax breaks Stark Industries would rack up by
distributing "rescue armor" to fire departments across the country? He
could probably cut the costs to token level and still make a profit.

I know it's "in genre", but sometimes it looks like a superhero world has
two different technologies -- the stuff everyone uses, and the incredibly
advanced stuff that would be so handy if it wasn't monopolized by the
super-types. After all, if you can genetically engineer a person (who
then becomes a superhero or villian), why can't you use your
gene-splicing lab to take HIV apart and figure out a cure?

IIRC, the Strike Force supplement (which is around here _somewhere_ ,
must be time to clean the apartment again) had a being called the
Governor, which was deliberately slowing Earth's scientific advances as
an experiment. It was an in-game explanation for why the fancy high-tech
used by both heroes and villians never seemed to make it into the stores.

How has the rest of the list dealt with these two tech levels? Ignore
it, limit everyone to "normal" tech, use a Governor-type character, or
something else?

Leah

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:07:00 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Hero Plus opinions?
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> > I've noted the same. I've personally had no real problems with
> > the Acrobat format. It does a great job at cross-platform consistancy.
>
> Except that the Acrobat file used for the Fuzion rules won't load
> correctly under ghostscript for Linux, and according to R. Talsorian's
> webpage this is deliberate. Whether the same applies to the Hero Plus
> stuff I admittedly don't know.

Isn't there an Acrobat Reader for Linux?



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:16:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Making a difference (was Re: huge dudes with capes)
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On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Leah L Watts wrote:

> How has the rest of the list dealt with these two tech levels? Ignore
> it, limit everyone to "normal" tech, use a Governor-type character, or
> something else?

In my old Champions campaign, I had several solutions.

The first was that limited forms of high-tech was changing the world. My
game had fusion reactors, electric cars, vector-thrust air cars, several
space stations, powered armor for the SWAT team (aka PaCT) etc.

I also used the Wildcards trick that some high-tech was the result of the
person's 'superpower' and couldn't be reproduced. Ie. Dr> Ator's
invisibility suit worked form him but no one lese, because *he* powered
the suit, not his technological devices. Of course, poor Ator never
figured that out...

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 20:36:11 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: The Great Multiform Debate
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Sakura wrote:
>
> On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, Rook wrote:
>
> > The problem here is that there are two equally valid and genre
> > supported special effects here.
> >
> > 1) the ultra-shapeshifter/mindshifter
> > 2) The two for one body special
> >
> > In the first, not having damage carryover seems absurd. However in the
> > second having it also seems absurd.
>
> I'd be inclined to let it come down to SFX. If it's the same body, then
> there's damage carryover - but healing one body heals the other. If there
> are two different bodies, well, the next time Captain Changeling appears,
> he's still going to be in bad shape, because that body has been in 'cold
> storage' snce the character transformed back.

Okay, then that leads right into the next question. What would be the
cost of being allowed to get better while in limbo.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------


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X-Authentication-Warning: bermuda.io.com: traveler owned process doing -bs
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:37:27 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Shapeshifter questions
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On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Trevor Barrie wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Mar 1998, Rick Holding wrote:
>
> > Okay, lets see. A 50 point pool has a 25 point control cost. Throw in
> > a +1 advantage, no time for another 25 points, and a +1 advantage, no skill
> > roll required for yet another 25 points. 50 points for the pool and 75
> > points for the control.
> >
> > Now for some disads. -1/4 for 1/2 DCV concentration while changing,
> > -1/2 for limited special effect (as per page 116 of the BBB) and some
> > gumby -1/4 to be determined by the player to make the maths easier for a
> > total of a -1 limitation applied to the control cost making it a 50
> > point pool and a 37 point control for a grand total of 87 points which
> > allows 100 points of 50 point or less powers.
>
> Hmmm? No, it allows a total of 50 pts of Powers if said Power have no
> Limitations, 75 if they all have -1/2, 100 if they all have -1, 150 if
> they all have -2, or whatever other combination the character wants.

I could be wrong (I don't have my book on me), but I believe that the pool
points are an Active Point limit, and that you can _not_ add limitations
to it at will in order to raise the point effectiveness (and rightfully
so; it's too easy to abuse.)

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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X-Sender: champion@mailhost.cyberhighway.net
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 20:40:22 -0800
From: Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Re: Typo (was Re: Villain Escapes)
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At 09:37 PM 3/18/98 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< Interesting typo. Was that "gropes" or "goes" ;-) >>
>
> You are a sick individual. :D

Wait till you see my product submissions...


;-)
---G-A-T-E-C-R-A-S-H-E-R-----Q-U-O-T-E-----
"One of these days, we're going to have to
find that hole where these things keep
leaking through... and plug it up!"

--Emerson Brinmore, shortly after
fighting off 378.2 Golf Balls from Hell.
----------O-F----T-H-E----D-A-Y------------
Jim Dickinson -=- champion@cyberhighway.net
Circle of HEROs Homepage -- Join Today!
http://www.aircyber.net/~jd/coh
CHECK IT OUT!

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 20:51:35 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Countering increased drain times
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "RH" == Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> writes:
>
> RH> I was thinking about a character who recovers from adverse
> RH> effects very quickly to the extent that within a few seconds he would
> RH> be just about as good as new.
>
> Try using Regeneration.

Yes, but regeneration is only part of it. High rates of regen to get
back the body, high recovery for stun and endurance. These are obvious first
steps. Ego attacks get normal recoveries and mind controls are not within the
scope of the ability to soak damage. While extremely high levels of power
defence could be used to block the damage, what I am after is a way of hastening
the return of lost stats.

Normal regen will aid aginst body drains/transfers and the effects of
transforms but as written in the book does squat against drains to other stats.
Any ideas?
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:00:16 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Countering increased drain times
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 10:52 AM 3/17/1998 -0800, Dave Mattingly wrote:
> >Bob G suggests:
> >>regenerating any Character Points lost to Adjustment Powers
> >>1 character point per Turn for 2 points.
> >
> >So you're saying that if I spend two points, and wait a turn, I'll get 1
> >point of char back? Why not just buy 1 point of Power Def and not lose
> >the char in the first place?
>
> Good point. (As was probably obvious, I wasn't comparing against Power
> Defense; just Regeneration.)
> On the other hand, after you spend the two points, you wait a Turn to
> get 1 point of char back; then wait another Turn and get another point
> back; then wait another Turn and get another point back; then wait another
> Turn and get another point back; and so forth. Those two points spent on
> Power Defense will only work on two points per attack.
>
> >It's not like normal Regeneration that heals Body, since there are tons
> >of ways to do Body damage that it's very difficult to protect against
> >them all. To drain/suppress/dispel a char, Power Def is it. I'd rather
> >buy 10 points of Power Def (or 12 with a "doesn't protect for the first
> >phase" -1/4 lim) than 10 points of char regeneration.
>
> Well, your decision. It's just on the table as an idea. (Though
> remember, as I pointed out, that those 10 points of Power Defense will only
> protect 10 points of any given attack.)

The effect that I was thinking of was that he suffered the effects of the
drain/transfer/attack/etc but then recovered far quicker than "normal". So while
a few points of power and ego defence would be included, they would be nothing
like high enough to stop attacks cold.

Upon reflection of what has been sent so far, I am leaning towards an aid
of fairly high amounts triggered by an attack that gets through with a small time
delay built in ( a segment or two ) combined with a good regen with a +1/2 (+1?)
advantage that it also brings back other stats. Start of every phase that this
guy is awake resets the trigger (0 phase action) and of he goes. Give him some
other abilities and prepare to annoy the hell out of my players.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

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Subject: Re: Villain Escapes
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 00:09:53 EST
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>So maybe supervillains need to be arraigned in a stronghold-secure
>courtroom. Maybe Steve Long can comment on some legalities of where
>the
>line has to be drawn on how much the courts can restrict access of the
>accused. Could it possible to perform a trial over a video/satellite
>feed?
> What about using a "proxy" defendant?

Secured courtrooms for superpowered defendants would be expensive enough
to be rare -- what if a villian has to be moved to a court that can keep
him around for the whole trial? There's another chance to escape. (Of
course, if the villian really needs a secure courtroom, presumably the
people movng him have taken a few precautions ....)

Also, with a limited amount of secure courtrooms, most super-trials will
occur in the same few locations. This is going to make getting an
unbiased jury even harder.

Leah

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Subject: Re: Villain Secret IDs
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 00:09:53 EST
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> Just as a thought, but couldn't a med tech claim "privileged
>information" on a superhero's secret identity?

A doctor could, but I don't know if a nurse, paramedic or med tech could
pull it off. A med tech I used to know once defined her job as "telling
the doctor what's wrong with the patient", but the doctor is still the
one in charge, and the others are officially assistants. According to a
friend of mine, if a licensed counselor (minister, psychiatrist,
psychologist) is working with a client through an interpreter, the
interpreter could be required to testify about what was said even though
the counselor could refuse -- can anyone confirm/deny this? If this is
the case, I'd say the paramedic who just taped up that nasty face cut Our
Hero took saving the city could be made to identify him under the proper
circumstances.

Leah

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Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:59:56 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: mlnunn@blue.net
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Villain Secret IDs
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Secret ID's can also help a villain. Let say Doc Evil is arrested and
unmasked. ID'ed as Bob. While on live TV being tried for every thing Doc
Evil has ever done, Doc Evil attacks the local Super Hero team. Hummm...
now the defense has a case for the Bob only being held accountable for the
one crime he was commiting when arrested.

Michael

Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist recently updated web site...
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"You have never lived until you have almost died.
And for those who fight for it,
life has a flavor the protected never know"
- anonymous

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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 01:14:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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Subject: Re: Villain Secret IDs
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> Secret ID's can also help a villain. Let say Doc Evil is arrested and
> unmasked. ID'ed as Bob. While on live TV being tried for every thing Doc
> Evil has ever done, Doc Evil attacks the local Super Hero team. Hummm...
> now the defense has a case for the Bob only being held accountable for the
> one crime he was commiting when arrested.
>

That was used as a defense for Terminator in Teen Titans years ago. He
planned the other Term showing up to help his defense. It's a pretty good
idea.

The Wildebeast idea is also fairly cool. A number of different people
using the exact same suit but almost never at the same time. So each time
it appeared it had a different goal in mind and used different tactics
and M.O. If a Wildebeast was caught they could try to spill the beans,
but no proof to back it up. Or the crimes pick up with the 'Beast in
custody and the defense can claim their client was set up by the group.



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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 02:18:32 EST
Subject: Re: P.A.R.T. [was: Re: Stronghold: local chapters?]
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<< Or someone is going to come up with another agency, either a villainous
organization in VIPER's mold or a support organization like Aftermath Inc.,
that goes by the name of P.A.R.C.E.L.>>

Okay, but what's that stand for? }:>

Mark @ GRG

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Subject: Re: Help Steve Long! (Re: Villain Secret IDs)
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:58:35 -0000
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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On 3/19/98 3:08 PM David Stallard (DBStallard@compuserve.com) Said:

>They took my fingerprints when I first got a driver's license (in
>Colorado), so I don't think you have to be a criminal to have prints on
>record.

That must be unique to Colorado (or a very few states). Although many
people other than criminals have their prints on file:

Any current or former US military (or Reserves/National Guard/Coast
Guard)
member
Any current or former civilain Federal government employee
Any current or former civilian State government employee
Any current or former holder of public office (at least state-level
and
above, county and city publicly-elected officals maybe/maybe
not)
Any current or former Law enforcement officer (BATF, FBI, CIA,
Secret
Service, State/Local/Federal/Park Police, Sheriffs, Etc.)
Any current or former state-licensed security personnel
Any current or former weapons seller (certain states only)
This includes people who work for companies that manufacture,
ship,
sell, or assemble guns, tasers, explosives, etc
Any current or former liscensed demolitions/explosives worker
Any current or former liscensed liquor seller (certain states only)
Any current or former Officer Of The Court (Public Defenders,
Judges,
Court Reporters, Bailiffs, Etc) (though I don't think that
_all_
practicing attorneys are finger-printed)
Anyone arrested, ever, on any charge (this is not the same as being a
criminal, because that implies a successful prosecution)
All foreign nationals, or foreing visitors to the US (passports)
Any US citizen who has applied for a passport

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:09:09 +0000
Subject: Re: Stronghold: local chapters?
Priority: normal
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