Week Ending March 28, 1998

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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Christopher Taylor\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 98 01:14:38
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: RE: Presence Attacks
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On Sat, 21 Mar 1998 17:13:04 -0800, Christopher Taylor wrote:

>>>> So, don't wait until combat is fully engaged. Presence attacks belong in
>>>> the initial Segment 12, unless you do something really impressive, such
>>>> as ripping out the heart from an agent, holding it aloft and announcing,
>>>> "Who wants to catch the bouquet?" Extremely violent action, reputation
>>>> strong (vengeful punisher-type), surprise action, excellent soliloquy,
>>>> exhibiting a power, in battle: net +7D6.
>>>
>>>Well, since this specific subject was under "Heroic level games," I _might_
>>>see this if your attack was a _really_ good one with a Cyber Hero
>>>character, but I really don't see it happening in Fantasy Hero, Justice
>>>Inc. or the like.
>>
>>I do: imagine chopping off someone's head, and saying, "Who dies next?"
>
>or the wonderful Dragon swooping down with a horrendous roar and breathing
>fire in floods for a little presence attack

Err.. 'not so little'. Remember the scene in Dragonslayer where
Vermithrax torches the village and everyone runs? He's achieving PRE+30
(ie getting at least 40 on his dice), and he's only getting +4d6.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 17:18:17 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Autofire
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David Stallard wrote:
>
> Is Autofire something that needs to be carefully controlled by the GM? The
> reason I ask is because I have one player who always gives his characters
> an Autofire attack, and it seems to be fairly effective. Should this be
> limited by slapping Charges on it or something similar? I guess they
> already have to pay END for each shot, so maybe that's the balancing
> factor....

Actually, I view a 1D6 RKA/AF as a great attack that is lethal to normals
or even agents with 3rPD or so, but that has zero chance to kill a super
with 6 or 8 rPD, although watch out for that stun multiple! This lets
LPMs be heroic at a very low power level.


--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


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X-Authentication-Warning: ural.owlnet.rice.edu: chip owned process doing -bs
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 20:24:46 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Power Defense
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On Fri, 20 Mar 1998, Kim Foster wrote:

> I thought I would take a stab at the SFX for unlimited Power Defense. Hyper
> fast metabolism. You "recover" drain, transformed,etc effects almost
> instantly reducing the effect of the attack.
>
> then again.. it seems like this sort of power defense would have a
> limitation. Does not stop the recieving end of a transfer.....

What about that great attack that splits you into your component
personalities? (Used vs. the Genie in Aladdin TV Series?)

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Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 02:42:38 +0000
Subject: Re: Help Steve Long! (Re: Villain Secret IDs)
Priority: normal
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> Theala Sildorian wrote:
> I always thought that this was a safeguard against in-hospital
> mix-ups, so that parents can be sure they go home with the right
> children. As such, it need not be put in any Government Database
> (and until recently, any such suggestion would have been decried as
> Communist or Fascist, depending on the political slant of the
> commentator). I have no idea whether the footprint taken as a child
> is of any use in identifying an adult, or even an adolescent.

Theoretcially, they are of use. But there's no computerized database
in most places, and not all hospitals keep their records very
effieciently. Personally, I think it's more for the parents. But
that's just my opinion.

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

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Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 02:48:03 +0000
Subject: Re: Creation Workshop
Priority: normal
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> During a recent visit to the Hero Plus site I came across info about
> a program called "Creation Workshop" Has any one out there used this
> program & if so how would you rate it against "Heromaker"? I have
> Heromaker & although I find it mostly functional I also find it
> limiting. It's printer formats are old & out of date & I have yet to
> be able to get it to print. Does Workshop work in Windows or DOS?And
> Lastly the site spoke of a supplement for Workshop called "Hero
> System Creator" that will be out soon. Any idea when?

Creation Workshop for Hero is still in beta test, and has not been
released yet. Creation Workshop is a character creation utility for
Windows which can be used to create cahracter for any game system via
the use of a template. It can also convert between various game
systems--supposedly. Right now there's only a template available for
Fuzion. I don't play Fuzion, and so have not bought the program--I
don't know how good it is. I am looking forward to the Hero template
being released tho.

I have and still rely on Heromaker. It still serves my needs
excellently despite the clunkiness of the interface, and the
crudeness of the graphics. It does the number crunching for me, and
that's what's important.

If you don't have a driver that will work with your printer, you DO
have several options. You can save to a text file and print using
your word processor--works, but the output isn't much to look at.
You can use one of the Adobe printer drivers, print to disk and
either edit the Postscript file so that Adobe Acrobat can read and
print it, or you can use Ghostscript (a powerful Postscript
emulator) to print it out for you. Either works well. You can get
the details of editing Postscript files from Aaron Allston's Home
Page, and info on Ghostscript on my Home Page.

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

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Subject: Re: Life support as defense
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-10,14-15,18-20
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 22:00:00 EST
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>I recall in the Gadgets! book, they defined a dart gun as NND, stopped
>by any armor which stops a 1d6 AP RKA, which does no damage but is
>used solely to determine if the hit was good enough to penetrate your
>armor. You shoot someone, roll a 1d6 AP RKA, and if you would have
>done BODY, the NND took full effect.
>
>You don't like this one? Fine. Please tell me how you would define a
>dart gun of this nature, which delivers the full quantity of knockout
>drug if it penetrates, and which easily passes through light armor
>while being stopped cold by heavier armor.

Hero System Almanac 1 did something similar in their writeup of animal
venoms. Basically, the critter in question had to do at least one BODY
before the venom effect occured. If the target was wearing protective
gear that blocked the bite, no venom could get through.

In this case, a dart gun could be hyped up (sorry, pun unintended) to
punch through armor better than a rattlesnake's fangs, but if it doesn't
punch through the knockout drug would just splatter on the outer surface.

Leah

_____________________________________________________________________
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From: "Ron Abitz" <ronald@centraltx.net>
Subject: Re: Question
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 21:11:45 -0600
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----------
> From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
> To: champ-l@omg.org
> Subject: Question
> Date: Sunday, March 22, 1998 8:16 PM
>
> Did anyone else on the list get a message from the listserv as if they
had
> just subscibed?
> I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
> But it sure feels good!
> Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior

I think it is the new server.

Ron Abitz

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Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 19:42:45 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: Help Steve Long! (Re: Villain Secret IDs)
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David Fair wrote:

> That must be unique to Colorado (or a very few states). Although many
> people other than criminals have their prints on file:
>
> Any current or former US military (or Reserves/National Guard/Coast
> Guard)
> member
> Any current or former civilain Federal government employee
> Any current or former civilian State government employee
> Any current or former holder of public office (at least state-level
> and
> above, county and city publicly-elected officals maybe/maybe
> not)
> Any current or former Law enforcement officer (BATF, FBI, CIA,
> Secret
> Service, State/Local/Federal/Park Police, Sheriffs, Etc.)
> Any current or former state-licensed security personnel
> Any current or former weapons seller (certain states only)
> This includes people who work for companies that manufacture,
> ship,
> sell, or assemble guns, tasers, explosives, etc
> Any current or former liscensed demolitions/explosives worker
> Any current or former liscensed liquor seller (certain states only)
> Any current or former Officer Of The Court (Public Defenders,
> Judges,
> Court Reporters, Bailiffs, Etc) (though I don't think that
> _all_
> practicing attorneys are finger-printed)
> Anyone arrested, ever, on any charge (this is not the same as being a
> criminal, because that implies a successful prosecution)
> All foreign nationals, or foreing visitors to the US (passports)
> Any US citizen who has applied for a passport

Be aware that this list will not apply in other countries. I was
enlisted in the Australian Air Force and certainly have not had any fingerprints
taken. I don't think the English do it either.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------


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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 20:47:31 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: Creation Workshop
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At 11:48 AM 3/21/1998 -0800, Eric Chauvin wrote:
>During a recent visit to the Hero Plus site I came across info about a
>program called "Creation Workshop" Has any one out there used this program
>& if so how would you rate it against "Heromaker"? I have Heromaker &
>although I find it mostly functional I also find it limiting. It's printer
>formats are old & out of date & I have yet to be able to get it to print.
>Does Workshop work in Windows or DOS?And Lastly the site spoke of a
>supplement for Workshop called "Hero System Creator" that will be out soon.
>Any idea when?

Here's as much as I know, specifically answering your questions (at
least, the ones I know the answers to:
Currently, Creation Workshop is only usable for Fuzion. The Hero
Creator (the resource files that enable it to work for Hero 4th Edition)
are ready to go, but the Hero Guys are waiting until a special utility is
ready that will convert HeroMaker files into Creation Workshop/Hero Creator
files.
(Personally, I think they'd do much better to go ahead and release Hero
Creator and make the utility available on their website. It's not like a
lot of people are going to be able to use it who haven't bought Creation
Workshop and Hero Creator as well as HeroMaker. If that's still a problem,
maybe charge $5-10 for the utility, or make it something that can be sent
for the cost of postage when the user sends in a Hero Creator registration
card. But that's just my thought on the matter; there may be some dynamic
in play that I'm not aware of of thinking about.)
Oh, and Creation Workshop is a Windows program, so you can plan on
saying goodbye to your printer problems. (I expect to do the same with
mine; I've never been able to get my Canon BJ-200e to work right with
HeroMaker, even with Ghostscript.)
Hopefully, they'll eventually work their way around to making Combat
Workshop and Campaign Workshop.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 20:49:51 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: Power Defense
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 10:59 PM 3/21/1998, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>>I think it was Bob who mentioned physiological adaptation - that
>>works fairly well. I also allowed straight Power Defense once for
>>a guy with various energy absorption powers - he reasoned that
>>he could suck back anything that was taken from him, and reduce
>>any energies intended to alter him.
>
>I've done something similar, but restricted it by SFX: the evil mage
>was shrugging off the PC mage's attacks, but he still got incinerated
>by the thunderbolt called down by the PC priest.

Wait a minute -- a thunderbolt that operates against Power Defense?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:52:35 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Suggestion
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>>>As you're merging Mental Defense with Power Defense, why not go further
>>>and just collapse the whole defense thing into one: you have just one
>>>power called Defense, and you specify the SFX that it acts against,
>>>including 'being punched' (for PD) as a SFX?
>>>
>>>qts

>> - don't try to put words in my mouth.
>
>Where exactly do I do that?

Right where you said "As you're merging Mental Defense with Power Defense,"
- show me where I said Power Defense should be merged with Mental Defense.
All I said was that Power Defense could defend against powers that have a
Psionic SFX, such as (gasp!) psionic adjustment powers.

>>>>Anyway, by the same token, Power Defense should be SFX dependant, for no
>>>>limitation. Power Defense vs. Toxins, Power Defense vs. Mutation, Power
>>>>Defense vs. Magic, Power Defense vs. Psionics, Power Defense vs.

See that? "Power Defense should be SFX dependant", "Power Defense vs.
Psionics". Not (I repeat NOT) Power Defense vs Mental Powers. All the other
examples given were SFX not powers - how does 'psionic SFX' suddenly become
'mental powers' to you?

>Your response makes no sense whatsoever. Did you read what I wrote or
>have you accidentally replied to someone else's message?
>qts

You're the one who's not reading.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Nitro Glycerine-
This is prepared by the action of strong nitric and sulphuric acids on
glycerine at low
temperatures. Sulphuric acid 4 3/4 pounds, nitric acid 2 1/3 pounds
glycerine 1 pound; nitro-glycerine collects at the bottom of the vessel and
is freed from the acids by carefully washing in a copious supply of water;
the explosion is caused by the rapid transformation from the liquid to the
gaseous state."
Lee's Priceless Recipes 1895

Sheesh I'd hate to been in the room when this quantity of nitro goes off
accidentally
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins and Ron Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 20:59:11 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
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At 07:08 PM 3/21/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes:
>
>RAW> In effect, saying "Flash Defense" is saying "5 points of Flash Defense
>RAW> to the relevant sense".
>
>No, saying "Flash Defense" is saying "Flash Defense". How much of it you
>have is a separate issue, at least within the context of NND. Because in
>some campaigns, especially lower-powerd heroic campaigns, the GM may waive
>the minimum purchases.
>
>But this is irrelvant. The way NND works, if "Flash Defense" is the
>non-normal defense and you have just 1 point of Flash Defense, you are
>immune to the attack. Requiring "X ammount of Flash Defense" is really an
>AVLD.

Pardon my picking a nit here, but that's not the way NND *works*; it's
the way NND *is written*. It could be easily rewritten to make "minimum
value of a given 'Limited' defense" a permitted defense again without
substantially affecting the mechanics of how it works. (Potentially, it
could even be rewritten to allow a minimum value of a given Characteristic
or non-defense Power.)
To give a concrete example:
Suppose my character has an NND with one of its possible defenses as
being 10 points of Power Defense. (Special effect: physiological
disruption beam which either scrambles your nervous system, or doesn't.) I
loose it at your character, with 5 points of Power Defense, and at
Robert's, with his 10 points of it. Your character (assuming he doesn't
have any of the attacks' other possible defenses) takes the full value of
the NND, with no subtraction, while Robert's is unaffected.
Now suppose my attack is an AVLD against Power Defense. (Special
effect: sleep ray.) Your character subtracts 5 from the total on the dice
and takes that much damage, while Robert's subtracts 10 from the dice and
takes that much damage.
These are two quite different mechanics for two quite different dynamics.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 21:00:24 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: Power Defense
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 08:24 PM 3/21/1998 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote:
>On Fri, 20 Mar 1998, Kim Foster wrote:
>
>> I thought I would take a stab at the SFX for unlimited Power Defense. Hyper
>> fast metabolism. You "recover" drain, transformed,etc effects almost
>> instantly reducing the effect of the attack.
>>
>> then again.. it seems like this sort of power defense would have a
>> limitation. Does not stop the recieving end of a transfer.....
>
>What about that great attack that splits you into your component
>personalities? (Used vs. the Genie in Aladdin TV Series?)

Duplication, Usable Against Others?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 21:04:27 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 09:11 PM 3/20/1998, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>>While it isn't strictly legal to have both Secret ID and Pubic ID, there
>>are plenty of good players who might bend this rule if they were playing a
>>superhero who was secretly a celebrity; this is more of a house rule than
>>an abusive construction. But imagine the reverse - a player who takes both
>>Secret ID and Public ID because humble 7-11 clerk Joe Blow is secretly the
>>world-famous Ultraguy; I'd call that abusive.
>
>Agreed - to me, having both would be restricted to the Scarlet
>Pimpernel or 'missing heir to throne' types, but in the Superhero
>world, how about an opera diva who is also a Superheroine? Or just
>suppose that Greg Norman was also a Superhero? Or Margaret Thatcher
>really was The Iron Maiden? In all cases the non-hero id justifies the
>PI disad, and the hero id justifies the SI disad.

I can find one situation that would be even worse... how about a
well-known and prominent superheroine with two completely separate Secret
Identities, of whom one is a famous model and the other a prominent
off-Broadway actress?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"John and Ron Prins\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 98 08:14:36
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Suggestion
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:52:35 -0500 (EST), John and Ron Prins wrote:

>>>>As you're merging Mental Defense with Power Defense, why not go further
>>>>and just collapse the whole defense thing into one: you have just one
>>>>power called Defense, and you specify the SFX that it acts against,
>>>>including 'being punched' (for PD) as a SFX?
>>>>
>>>>qts
>
>>> - don't try to put words in my mouth.
>>
>>Where exactly do I do that?
>
>Right where you said "As you're merging Mental Defense with Power Defense,"
>- show me where I said Power Defense should be merged with Mental Defense.
>All I said was that Power Defense could defend against powers that have a
>Psionic SFX, such as (gasp!) psionic adjustment powers.

Right, that *is* Mental Defense, which acts on anything BOECV. The rest
of your diatribe therefore does not follow.


qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 98 08:26:41
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Power Defense
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On Sat, 21 Mar 1998 20:49:51 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:

>At 10:59 PM 3/21/1998, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>>>I think it was Bob who mentioned physiological adaptation - that
>>>works fairly well. I also allowed straight Power Defense once for
>>>a guy with various energy absorption powers - he reasoned that
>>>he could suck back anything that was taken from him, and reduce
>>>any energies intended to alter him.
>>
>>I've done something similar, but restricted it by SFX: the evil mage
>>was shrugging off the PC mage's attacks, but he still got incinerated
>>by the thunderbolt called down by the PC priest.
>
> Wait a minute -- a thunderbolt that operates against Power Defense?

I said *similar*, not *the same*. The thunderbolt was divine magic, not
a 'real' thunderbolt (3d6 Indirect Destroy [from FH1] vs Body). The
mage had Power Defense which worked against other mages' magic, but not
against divine magic.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"champ-l@omg.org\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 98 08:29:25
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On Sat, 21 Mar 1998 21:04:27 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:

>At 09:11 PM 3/20/1998, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>>>While it isn't strictly legal to have both Secret ID and Pubic ID, there
>>>are plenty of good players who might bend this rule if they were playing a
>>>superhero who was secretly a celebrity; this is more of a house rule than
>>>an abusive construction. But imagine the reverse - a player who takes both
>>>Secret ID and Public ID because humble 7-11 clerk Joe Blow is secretly the
>>>world-famous Ultraguy; I'd call that abusive.
>>
>>Agreed - to me, having both would be restricted to the Scarlet
>>Pimpernel or 'missing heir to throne' types, but in the Superhero
>>world, how about an opera diva who is also a Superheroine? Or just
>>suppose that Greg Norman was also a Superhero? Or Margaret Thatcher
>>really was The Iron Maiden? In all cases the non-hero id justifies the
>>PI disad, and the hero id justifies the SI disad.
>
> I can find one situation that would be even worse... how about a
>well-known and prominent superheroine with two completely separate Secret
>Identities, of whom one is a famous model and the other a prominent
>off-Broadway actress?

How 'off-Broadway' are we talking? I take it you mean that she is
involved with films of 'a dubious moral character.'
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <mlnunn@mail.blue.net>
From: "Michael Nunn" <mlnunn@bnllc2.blue.net>
Organization: Rising Force Publications
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 12:36:29 +0000
Subject: Image On the list...
Reply-to: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net
Priority: normal
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

Ok, due to overwhelming demand I will post some Image characters to
the list. I got far too many private requests to do each of them
personally.

Thanks for the interest.

Michael

BTW they will start later tonight.




"Herozine" Rising Force Publications "SUPER" RPG 'zine,
check out our web site at:
http://users.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm

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Comments: Authenticated sender is <mlnunn@mail.blue.net>
From: "Michael Nunn" <mlnunn@bnllc2.blue.net>
Organization: Rising Force Publications
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 12:36:33 +0000
Subject: Re: World's Greatest Heroes
Reply-to: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net
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<<But what about the global, protectors of the world level of team?>>

I ran a "Guardians of Earth" campaign for a couple of years. I got
a lot of mileage from old Justice League, and Legion Of Super Heroes
Comics. I also found that a lot of the same plots that worked on a
lower level worked just as well on the world wide level if I made it
sound "Much, Much" worse.

Hope that helps,

Michael



"Herozine" Rising Force Publications "SUPER" RPG 'zine,
check out our web site at:
http://users.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm

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Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 13:35:55 +0000
Subject: Re: World's Greatest Heroes
Priority: normal
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To: champ-l@omg.org

> Hello;
>
> Most Champion's published material, and most games I've seen tend
> to
> focus on the heroes being a city-focused group. Occasionally you'll
> see the national team.
> But what about the global, protectors of the world level of team?
> Obviously such a team is above stopping the local bank robbery or
> kidnapping. Even many national crisises would be off limits to them.
> But you can't do the same old 'world conquering megalomaniac' week
> after week. It gets old real fast.
> So what are some good plots for such a team? Anyone here have any
> experience running at this level?
> My current group is set here; and while I have some ideas, it's not
> the
> usual sort of game for me and I'm looking to see if I've missed
> anything or anyone has better ideas.


My campaign started out as a city based team, fighting Genocide's
attempts to destroy mutant kind. I had taken over the campaign from
another GM. But I like grand scale epic stories, so I've been slowly
expanding from a city based team to a planetary defense force. I've
introduced a more dark, sinister, and chilling opponent (an alien
race) for the Heroes to fight, which requires them to think beyond
Hudson City, and to the world at large.

Sometimes some of the players miss foiling bank robberies. In one
recent session, one of the PCs decided to go on patrol one night and
bring in as many normal criminals as he could find. I didn't bother
to roll combat, I just told him he succeeded--and that the police
were asking him to stop because they were running out of room in the
local jail to hold all the suspects.

My method of running the "Save the World" campaign has been not to
come right out and tell the players who the villain is. Right now
they've only had a glimpse of the real enemy--a shadowy visage which
literally scared the piss outta them (major PRE attack). But for the
most part, they've been up against flunkies, minions, and sub
lieutenants--each tough in his own right. Up until yesterday, they
only had a vauge idea what these Shadow Masters really wanted (now
they know--they want to come to our universe). So in about six
months of play time (twice a week), they are just now learning who
the enemy really is, and what the enemy wants--and a few clues as to
how they might be able to stop it. They've also had some hints as to
what will happen if they fail in the form of time travellers who are
trying to defeat the Shadow Masters in the past.

The players have gotten a lot of good information in the past several
weeks--enough to get an idea of what the Shadow Masters want, and how
they're trying to get it. Now the players just have to figure out a
way to stop them. Unfortunately, they allowed a major clue (a piece
of Shadow technology) to slip out of their fingers--now their
gadgeteer has nothing to study to reverse engineer. Oops! :)

I don't necessarily have to stop the campaign if the players
successful stop the Shadow Masters. I can increase the scale of the
campaign again to a Universal Level, or even Multi-Universal to keep
things going--it may seem like a stretch, it all depends on your
perspective. Or I can have the Shadow Masters defeated once and for
all--but their minions are still around and are a danger-very much
like in B5 with the Drakh.

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 08:55:43 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Suggestion
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>>Right where you said "As you're merging Mental Defense with Power Defense,"
>>- show me where I said Power Defense should be merged with Mental Defense.
>>All I said was that Power Defense could defend against powers that have a
>>Psionic SFX, such as (gasp!) psionic adjustment powers.
>
>Right, that *is* Mental Defense, which acts on anything BOECV. The rest
>of your diatribe therefore does not follow.
>
>qts

Something BOECV does not necessarily operate solely against MD; it can
operate against PD at the discretion of the user (at the time of power
creation).

BBB pg. 93: BOECV

"Any Powers that would be modified by defenses (such as an Energy Blast or
Power Drain), can apply to either that defense, or to the character's Mental
Defense, at the attacker's option. The choice must be made when the Power is
bought, and can't be changed thereafter."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Now, we get bigger guns."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins and Ron Prins
jprins@interhop.net

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 08:55:47 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

>> I can find one situation that would be even worse... how about a
>>well-known and prominent superheroine with two completely separate Secret
>>Identities, of whom one is a famous model and the other a prominent
>>off-Broadway actress?
>
>How 'off-Broadway' are we talking? I take it you mean that she is
>involved with films of 'a dubious moral character.'
>qts

I think that's a backhanded shot (hell, direct shot) against the writeup of
Solitarie in TUM...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Now, we get bigger guns."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins and Ron Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 07:03:49 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Suggestion
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 08:14 AM 3/22/1998, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>>All I said was that Power Defense could defend against powers that have a
>>Psionic SFX, such as (gasp!) psionic adjustment powers.
>
>Right, that *is* Mental Defense, which acts on anything BOECV. The rest
>of your diatribe therefore does not follow.

Mental Defense doesn't work on *anything* BOECV. "Any Powers that would
be modified by defenses (such as Energy Blast or Power Drain) can apply
either to that defense, or to the character's Mental Defense, at the
attacker's option. That choice must be made when the Power is bought, and
can't be changed thereafter."
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 07:08:29 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 08:29 AM 3/22/1998, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>>>Agreed - to me, having both would be restricted to the Scarlet
>>>Pimpernel or 'missing heir to throne' types, but in the Superhero
>>>world, how about an opera diva who is also a Superheroine? Or just
>>>suppose that Greg Norman was also a Superhero? Or Margaret Thatcher
>>>really was The Iron Maiden? In all cases the non-hero id justifies the
>>>PI disad, and the hero id justifies the SI disad.
>>
>> I can find one situation that would be even worse... how about a
>>well-known and prominent superheroine with two completely separate Secret
>>Identities, of whom one is a famous model and the other a prominent
>>off-Broadway actress?
>
>How 'off-Broadway' are we talking? I take it you mean that she is
>involved with films of 'a dubious moral character.'

No, I'm talking about musicals being put on in New York City, not
actually on Broadway but with quite a bit of attention being given. See
Champions Universe, page 94.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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From: Michael Sprague <msprague@eznet.net>
Subject: RE: Presence Attacks
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 10:09:00 -0500
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>> Well, since this specific subject was under "Heroic level games," I
_might_
>> see this if your attack was a _really_ good one with a Cyber Hero
>> character, but I really don't see it happening in Fantasy Hero, Justice
>> Inc. or the like.
>
> I can see this in a street-level Dark Champions campaign, which I felt
> was within the range being discussed. No matter.

I didn't, since Dark Champions Characters tend to be Superheroic rather
than Heroic. However, if your talking about the heroic version, then yes,
your right. They would probably be more powerful than normal Heroic
characters when it comes to attacks.

>>> In our games, the villains are often prepared, which translates to
having
>>> a held action available.
>>
>> Well, I think it can be debated whether you can even have a "held"
action
>> if your out of combat.
>
> In effect, the ambushers can decide when Segment 12 occurs and act
> before any of the ambushees. Describe this as you will, I tend to
> describe it as having a held action from before combat. OTOH, ambushees
> who make their PER roll when the initial attack comes in do not lose
> their Segment 12.

Okay, I can agree with that. It's not truly a held action, though it is
very similar,

This is a case where the enemy goes first, but since you made your PER
roll, you do get an action, and could use a Presence attack to go first
instead.

> Similarly, I will allow even low-DEX guards who are expecting an attack
> in the next few seconds to have a held attack ready, provided that the
> other side does not expect them to be alerted: to do otherwise would IMHO
> overvalue DEX and undervalue Stealth and PER.

I don't think it's a held action, so much as they go first, since they are
the instigators of the attack.

>>> Causing them to hesitate, in effect, causes them to lose their held
>>> action, which is a GOOD THING(R), especially if they are paramilitary
>>> or militia types with some heavy weaponry.
>>
>> Of course, if you do allow held actions out of combat, I can state that
I
>> have one too, and get a DEX roll which may allow me to go first without
the
>> need of a Presence attack.
>
> No, you can't. You have to be acting with surprise, and if the other
> side got held actions, it was you who were surprised. The Presence
> attack can get back some of that advantage.

I'm not sure we are talking entirely about the same thing. Let me
summarize, and see if you agree.

First, if I am caught totally by surprise, I would not expect that I would
get a segment 12 action, nor should I be allowed the chance for a Presence
attack.

Second, if I was being attacked, but not expecting it, but did make a PER
roll, then I would expect to get a segment 12 action ... but the enemy goes
first, unless I can make them hesitate with a Presence Attack.

Third, if actions can be held before combat starts, and I am expecting
attack, then I can demand a DEX roll even if the other side instigates the
attack and would normally go first, so that I could go first. Failing
that, I could also make a Presence Attack (or start with it) to try and go
first.

Does that cover all the situations we are talking about? (I'm ignoring
other ways to start combat, because that's not what we were talking about).


That said, I still stand by what I said about the first two levels not
being overly useful in general, especially in heroic level games. Yes,
they are much more useful just before combat starts when the other side is
instigating the attack (if you want to get normals away from the site) but
that's a small part of the entire combat.

There is one other thing that makes a difference, that we have only hinted
at, and that is Power Levels. If players are playing in a higher powered
campaign, then they have more points for things like PRE, so Presence
attacks can become much more useful. I have always played in lower powered
campaigns.


> qts@nildram.co.uk writes:
>
>> Well, since this specific subject was under "Heroic level games," I
_might_
>> see this if your attack was a _really_ good one with a Cyber Hero
>> character, but I really don't see it happening in Fantasy Hero, Justice
>> Inc. or the like.
>
> I do: imagine chopping off someone's head, and saying, "Who dies next?"
> qts

Sure I can imagine it .... but I just don't see it happening .... unless
your playing characters a lot more powerful than I am used to seeing. :-)
It would take a very lucky roll (head shot) and lots of BODY on the
damage.

~ Mike

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 07:09:16 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

At 08:55 AM 3/22/1998 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>> I can find one situation that would be even worse... how about a
>>>well-known and prominent superheroine with two completely separate Secret
>>>Identities, of whom one is a famous model and the other a prominent
>>>off-Broadway actress?
>>
>>How 'off-Broadway' are we talking? I take it you mean that she is
>>involved with films of 'a dubious moral character.'
>>qts
>
>I think that's a backhanded shot (hell, direct shot) against the writeup of
>Solitarie in TUM...

No, *toward* it. (Actually I was using the CU writeup as reference, and
I happen to *like* both, the TUM writeup in particular.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 07:09:34 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@hotline.klock.com>
Subject: Re: Power Defense
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

At 08:26 AM 3/22/1998, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>On Sat, 21 Mar 1998 20:49:51 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>>At 10:59 PM 3/21/1998, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>I think it was Bob who mentioned physiological adaptation - that
>>>>works fairly well. I also allowed straight Power Defense once for
>>>>a guy with various energy absorption powers - he reasoned that
>>>>he could suck back anything that was taken from him, and reduce
>>>>any energies intended to alter him.
>>>
>>>I've done something similar, but restricted it by SFX: the evil mage
>>>was shrugging off the PC mage's attacks, but he still got incinerated
>>>by the thunderbolt called down by the PC priest.
>>
>> Wait a minute -- a thunderbolt that operates against Power Defense?
>
>I said *similar*, not *the same*. The thunderbolt was divine magic, not
>a 'real' thunderbolt (3d6 Indirect Destroy [from FH1] vs Body). The
>mage had Power Defense which worked against other mages' magic, but not
>against divine magic.

The latter sentence was understood; I just hadn't gotten that the
thunderbolt was operating as Destroy. That kinda makes sense, now that you
explain it, and it certainly helps the rest of it make sense.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 12:14:24 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified)
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>>I think that's a backhanded shot (hell, direct shot) against the writeup of
>>Solitarie in TUM...
>
> No, *toward* it. (Actually I was using the CU writeup as reference, and
>I happen to *like* both, the TUM writeup in particular.)

I'm not so sure about the CU writeup (seemed a tad dull), but I also liked
the TUM writeup for Solitarie. At least the 'secret society' is finally
explained. And she's finally turned into an effective mentalist (mind scan
at the same time as other mental powers) as well as a halfway decent mage.
Even if the EC is still bogus :-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Now, we get bigger guns."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins and Ron Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 17:22:02 +0000
Subject: Re: Alias
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>
> Something that i have often been curious about, is how do
> people
> handle multiple alias'?
> Take the Red Skull for instance. He had about seven or
> eight
> different alias'
> Would an alias be considered as a disadvantage or a Perk?

You would use the Deep Cover Perk from Dark Champions. It costs 2
points, and allows the character a complete false id complete with
ID's, bank accounts, social security number, people who know the
person as the Deep Cover, and so on. It actually should cost more
than 2 points, IMHO as it is a powerful Perk.

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

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Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 09:49:03 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Subject: World's Greatest Heroes
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Hello;

Most Champion's published material, and most games I've seen tend to
focus on the heroes being a city-focused group. Occasionally you'll see
the national team.
But what about the global, protectors of the world level of team?
Obviously such a team is above stopping the local bank robbery or
kidnapping. Even many national crisises would be off limits to them. But
you can't do the same old 'world conquering megalomaniac' week after
week. It gets old real fast.
So what are some good plots for such a team? Anyone here have any
experience running at this level?
My current group is set here; and while I have some ideas, it's not the
usual sort of game for me and I'm looking to see if I've missed anything
or anyone has better ideas.

My game can be found at the website mentioned in my signature below:

Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role
Playing

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Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 09:56:32 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Creation Workshop
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> Currently, Creation Workshop is only usable for Fuzion. The Hero
> Creator (the resource files that enable it to work for Hero 4th Edition)
> are ready to go, but the Hero Guys are waiting until a special utility is
> ready that will convert HeroMaker files into Creation Workshop/Hero Creator
> files.
> (Personally, I think they'd do much better to go ahead and release Hero
> Creator and make the utility available on their website. It's not like a
> lot of people are going to be able to use it who haven't bought Creation
> Workshop and Hero Creator as well as HeroMaker. If that's still a problem,

I don't know, the first thing I plan to do once I buy it is hit the
convert button on every single one of my heromaker files. Not having tha
conversion utility would be a major minus for me. I can understand the
delay for that reason and quite agree with them on it.

--
Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role
Playing

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X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 12:22:19 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: World's Greatest Heroes
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 09:49 AM 3/22/98 -0800, Rook wrote:
>Hello;
>
> Most Champion's published material, and most games I've seen tend to
>focus on the heroes being a city-focused group. Occasionally you'll see
>the national team.
> But what about the global, protectors of the world level of team?
> Obviously such a team is above stopping the local bank robbery or
>kidnapping. Even many national crisises would be off limits to them. But
>you can't do the same old 'world conquering megalomaniac' week after
>week. It gets old real fast.
> So what are some good plots for such a team? Anyone here have any
>experience running at this level?
> My current group is set here; and while I have some ideas, it's not the
>usual sort of game for me and I'm looking to see if I've missed anything
>or anyone has better ideas.

Yet another reason for The Ultimate Super Team to be written.

Damon

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From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Suggestion
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 13:29:40 -0500 (EST)
Organization: VTSFFC
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To: champ-l@omg.org

> >All I said was that Power Defense could defend against powers that have a
> >Psionic SFX, such as (gasp!) psionic adjustment powers.
>
> Right, that *is* Mental Defense, which acts on anything BOECV. The rest
> of your diatribe therefore does not follow.

Not necessarily. I can telekinetically punch somebody, which could be
bought as either TK or a Physical Energy Blast, vs PD, with an SFX
of Psionics. Heck, if you're in an Anime-themeed game, *ANYTHING* done
by an Iczer-class entity has a Psionic SFX, and that includes TK, time
travel, FTL travel, clarsentience, HKA, RKA, EB, HA, various Drains of
stats, Transforms, etc. Most of which are defended against by PD, ED,
or Power Def. Heck, in a lot of anime genres, martial arts are
heavily flavored with psionics.
"Pisonic Adjustment Powers" can include things like "I use my telekinesis
to make the molecules of your body move faster, thus aging you a hundred
years in seconds." Which would be either a Drain or Transform, psionic
SFX, probably *not* bought BOECV, vs Power Def.

Daniel Pawtowski

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"John and Ron Prins\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 98 19:12:02
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Suggestion
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 08:55:43 -0500 (EST), John and Ron Prins wrote:

>>>Right where you said "As you're merging Mental Defense with Power Defense,"
>>>- show me where I said Power Defense should be merged with Mental Defense.
>>>All I said was that Power Defense could defend against powers that have a
>>>Psionic SFX, such as (gasp!) psionic adjustment powers.
>>
>>Right, that *is* Mental Defense, which acts on anything BOECV. The rest
>>of your diatribe therefore does not follow.
>>
>>qts
>
>Something BOECV does not necessarily operate solely against MD; it can
>operate against PD at the discretion of the user (at the time of power
>creation).
>
>BBB pg. 93: BOECV
>
>"Any Powers that would be modified by defenses (such as an Energy Blast or
>Power Drain), can apply to either that defense, or to the character's Mental
>Defense, at the attacker's option. The choice must be made when the Power is
>bought, and can't be changed thereafter."

You are right, and I owe you an apology for my intemperate language as
well.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"John and Ron Prins\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 98 19:14:03
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
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On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 08:55:47 -0500 (EST), John and Ron Prins wrote:

>>> I can find one situation that would be even worse... how about a
>>>well-known and prominent superheroine with two completely separate Secret
>>>Identities, of whom one is a famous model and the other a prominent
>>>off-Broadway actress?
>>
>>How 'off-Broadway' are we talking? I take it you mean that she is
>>involved with films of 'a dubious moral character.'
>>qts
>
>I think that's a backhanded shot (hell, direct shot) against the writeup of
>Solitarie in TUM...

With which I am, alas, not familiar.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 98 19:15:01
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
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On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 07:08:29 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:

>At 08:29 AM 3/22/1998, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>Agreed - to me, having both would be restricted to the Scarlet
>>>>Pimpernel or 'missing heir to throne' types, but in the Superhero
>>>>world, how about an opera diva who is also a Superheroine? Or just
>>>>suppose that Greg Norman was also a Superhero? Or Margaret Thatcher
>>>>really was The Iron Maiden? In all cases the non-hero id justifies the
>>>>PI disad, and the hero id justifies the SI disad.
>>>
>>> I can find one situation that would be even worse... how about a
>>>well-known and prominent superheroine with two completely separate Secret
>>>Identities, of whom one is a famous model and the other a prominent
>>>off-Broadway actress?
>>
>>How 'off-Broadway' are we talking? I take it you mean that she is
>>involved with films of 'a dubious moral character.'
>
> No, I'm talking about musicals being put on in New York City, not
>actually on Broadway but with quite a bit of attention being given. See
>Champions Universe, page 94.

Not something I own, but point made.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 11:53:14 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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"qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> "champ-l@omg.org" wrote:
>
> On Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:57:01 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>
> >At 09:17 PM 3/18/98, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
> >>On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:15:02 +0000, Theala Sildorian wrote:
> >>
> >>>Now the rules states that you can't have both Secret ID and Public
> >>>ID.
> >>
> >>Really? In one of the AC mags it gives ideas for using both.
> >
> >One thing implied by the rules, but as far as I recall never explicitly
> >mentioned, is the assumption that the heroic identity will probably be
> >"public" - that is, famous.
> >
> Agreed - to me, having both would be restricted to the Scarlet
> Pimpernel or 'missing heir to throne' types, but in the Superhero
> world, how about an opera diva who is also a Superheroine? Or just
> suppose that Greg Norman was also a Superhero? Or Margaret Thatcher
> really was The Iron Maiden? In all cases the non-hero id justifies the
> PI disad, and the hero id justifies the SI disad.
>

It seems to me that people are confusing the ID disads with the
Reputation disads. They are *very* different things.

A Secret ID means that the character has a double life, and that few know
that Bruce Wayne and the Batman are one and the same. By hypothesis, to
maintain his position, Batman must maintain the secret, and this makes
getting captured and unmasked a real fear.

A public ID means that it is a matter of public record that Ben Grimm is
the Thing. He can't take off his costume and get away from the
paparazzi, meddlesome government agents or hide from his enemies. His
DNPCs are constantly at risk. He is constantly being approached to right
petty wrongs, frequently by people whose motives are not pure.

Both of these are divorced from Reputation: the question of how famous
either or both IDs are. By default, Reputation covers the Hero ID only,
but a second Reputation may cover the Secret ID. Thus, the famous Opera
Diva who is secretly Descant the Superheroine would have:

15 Secret ID: Beverly Hills, famous opera singer
5 Reputation 8-: Slightly Famous Superheroine; known CAK, etc.
10 Reputation 8-/14- among classical music buffs: Opera Diva
10 Rival, professional and Romantic: Jane Southland, Diva

IMHO this is precisely correct, not a fudge, and requires no change to
the existing rules.

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


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X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:30:37 -0500
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: World's Greatest Heroes
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At 09:49 AM 3/22/98 -0800, Rook wrote:
>Hello;
>
> Most Champion's published material, and most games I've seen tend to
>focus on the heroes being a city-focused group. Occasionally you'll see
>the national team.
> But what about the global, protectors of the world level of team?
> Obviously such a team is above stopping the local bank robbery or
>kidnapping. Even many national crisises would be off limits to them. But
>you can't do the same old 'world conquering megalomaniac' week after
>week. It gets old real fast.


Ok ... I'm not sure why you jump directly to that power level, but now
that you're there, let's see ... Our group started as a city-wide force,
but has now grown to the point where it can handle world-wide issues.
Here's some of the things that we have faced:
- world-wide environmental cataclysms
- dimensional and time rifts
- alien invasion forces
- national political conflicts
- epic mystical armies

Also, don't try to come up with the WCM of the week (That's "world
conquering megalomaniac", in case anybody missed the inline quote.).
Instead, develop a few stock villains and/or teams that continue to
vex the heroes each time, evading any attempt at capturing. Hell,
let the villains win every once in a while.

====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================

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Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:36:51 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: pod@avalon.net
From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net>
Subject: Alias
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To: champ-l@omg.org


Something that i have often been curious about, is how do people
handle multiple alias'?
Take the Red Skull for instance. He had about seven or eight
different alias'
Would an alias be considered as a disadvantage or a Perk?

Dan-


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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 98 22:05:24
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Question
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 18:16:22 -0800 (PST), Kim Foster wrote:

>Did anyone else on the list get a message from the listserv as if they had
>just subscibed?

That was my fault. Geoff and I are switching the list over to a new isp's listserver and I
just finished auto-subscribing all of the current list subscribers to the new listserver
(champ-l@sysabend.org).

You should see a formal announcement from Geoff sometime Monday.

-=>John Desmarais


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Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 14:14:10 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Presence Attacks
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Michael Sprague wrote:
>
> > Similarly, I will allow even low-DEX guards who are expecting an attack
> > in the next few seconds to have a held attack ready, provided that the
> > other side does not expect them to be alerted: to do otherwise would IMHO
> > overvalue DEX and undervalue Stealth and PER.
>
> I don't think it's a held action, so much as they go first, since they are
> the instigators of the attack.

Well, this dove-tails into the "Segment 12" thread. As I believe I
stated previously, I move onto "combat time" whenever it is vital to have
a second-by-second account of what people are doing. This need not
involve combat. In fact, this adheres to the HSR p. 136, which states,

"Usually, the event that marks the change from noncombat to
combat time is Perception, when the player characters spot
their enemies (or vice-versa)."

Of course, if the enemy has spotted the players and the players are
unaware, the GM would give this away by switching to combat time
explicitly. Instead, I use my best judgment about what the situation is,
and this often means that the enemies have had a few phases of combat
time to set up and to acquire held phases. By convention, whenever the
*players* become aware that combat time has commenced, I declare a
Segment 12.

For example, if the PCs have entered CIA HQ and are racing down the
hallway trying to reach the secret conference room before they are
detected, seconds and meters are vital. We get out hex map and figs and
run things on a phase-by-phase basis, which usually means that the
Martial Artist (SPD 5) matches movement with the Brick (SPD 3) by holding
his 3 until 4, spending his 5 in 7 on a full-phase PER, holding in 8 so
the SPD 8 spell-caster can seal off the side corridor with a Force Wall,
does two more full-phase PERs in 9 and 11 using his held 8 and 10 and
moves in 12 with everyone else.

Once I have gotten everyone's attention, a standard procedure has been
established and it is obvious that there is going to be no immediate
attack, the players may ask that I drop back to a turn-by-turn reckoning.
In this mode, characters still get their SPD in actions per turn (some
PCs may drop their SPD to conserve END), but 12-seconds of action is
reckoned at once. Whenever some enemy action disrupts this, both sides
synchronize and it is Segment 12 again. You may be interrupted halfway
through your turn's worth of movement, but it is Segment 12.

Since turn-by-turn is a narrative compression of combat-time actions, and
the Segment 12 convention is simply a convention to ensure that everyone
gets a chance to act, I see no problem with character's entering Segment
12 with a held action, provided that he has extra phases during the turn.
In the above example, the Martial Artist may state that he is using his
extra phases to have a full-phase held at all times -- he gives up the +2
on hearing PER in order to be more ready to react if something is heard.
Similarly, the agents who are waiting by the secret slide-panels for the
signal to attack are holding the actions that they theoretically got on
Segment 8. Everyone is ready for combat, and no one is fully surprised;
however, the SPD 3 brick who is moving full rate does not have a held
ready when Segment 12 occurs.

This is a specialized situation, but I wanted to illustrate the thought
process involved.


>
> I'm not sure we are talking entirely about the same thing. Let me
> summarize, and see if you agree.
>
> First, if I am caught totally by surprise, I would not expect that I would
> get a segment 12 action, nor should I be allowed the chance for a Presence
> attack.

True, although I have allowed a Presence Attack for simply being able to
withstand an awesome display of firepower, "My God! He's invulnerable!"
The villain fired a "Street Sweeper" shotgun: 3D6 RKA AF/rbr+STUN+KB,
fired at point blank range, all five shots hitting, and none rolled above
9 BODY and lousy STUNx. The target had 10 or 12rPD, almost no knockback
was scored and he made his breakfall roll. The player soliloquized
without missing a beat, "Is that the best you can do?". I felt that this
would have a negative morale effect on the villains, who were street gang
members with lots of nasty weapons but no paranormal abilities, and had
heard, well, street legends about the heroes.

>
> Second, if I was being attacked, but not expecting it, but did make a PER
> roll, then I would expect to get a segment 12 action ... but the enemy goes
> first, unless I can make them hesitate with a Presence Attack.

True, more or less. If the villains outnumber the party, I often have
some of them hold their initial actions to interrupt PCs, prevent
recoveries, or just wait until after that inconvenient post-12 recovery,
so causing them to hesitate (PRE or better) will cause them to lose that
held.

>
> Third, if actions can be held before combat starts, and I am expecting
> attack, then I can demand a DEX roll even if the other side instigates the
> attack and would normally go first, so that I could go first. Failing
> that, I could also make a Presence Attack (or start with it) to try and go
> first.

True. Your pre-combat actions and attitude must clearly indicate that
you are expecting an attack.

>
> Does that cover all the situations we are talking about? (I'm ignoring
> other ways to start combat, because that's not what we were talking about).

That about covers the usual cases.

>
> That said, I still stand by what I said about the first two levels not
> being overly useful in general, especially in heroic level games. Yes,
> they are much more useful just before combat starts when the other side is
> instigating the attack (if you want to get normals away from the site) but
> that's a small part of the entire combat.

But, it is a vitally important part of the combat. In a heroic or
Low-Powered-Supers game, where normals or low-level agents with big
weapons are a serious threat, getting rid of the henchmen may be the
difference between defeat and victory. In a Supers game, it would
simplify the combat, but I wouldn't expect many supervillains to be that
impressed by most superheroes or vice-versa.

Moreover, a PRE attack potentially affects every adversary in LOS. That
would normally be a *huge* advantage on any other power. As such, I
don't expect the world of Presence attacks, but even if they are only
good at getting rid of the more pudly henchmen, IMHO they have carried
the weight of 5 or 10 points spent on added PRE.

Of course, all of this depends on the GM's being willing to give Presence
Attacks their due. I have seen players (both as GM and as fellow player)
go to lengths to enhance their Presence Attacks: using Images to look
more numerous or impressive, Stealth or Invisibility to appear as if from
nowhere, a Mind Link with a hidden mentalist to give the Martial Artist
the appearance of omniscience, etc. Perhaps a deliberate attempt to play
up Presence would help with some of the GMs you mention -- others may
simply be beyond hope.

<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 14:48:55 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> >>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes:
>
> RAW> In effect, saying "Flash Defense" is saying "5 points of Flash Defense
> RAW> to the relevant sense".
>
> No, saying "Flash Defense" is saying "Flash Defense". How much of it you
> have is a separate issue, at least within the context of NND. Because in
> some campaigns, especially lower-powerd heroic campaigns, the GM may waive
> the minimum purchases.
>
> But this is irrelvant. The way NND works, if "Flash Defense" is the
> non-normal defense and you have just 1 point of Flash Defense, you are
> immune to the attack. Requiring "X ammount of Flash Defense" is really an
> AVLD.

Well, that may be the way that it works in your campaign, but it is not
the way that it works in my campaign and the ones that I have played in.
Nor are you being consistent with published characters, although I admit
they often contradict published rules. Let's return to the rule as
stated: [HSR, p. 96]

When a character purchases [NND], he must define a reasonably
common Power or circumstance or set of uncommon Powers or
circumstances as the defense. If the target has this defense,
then the attack is totally ignored.

Now, in order to convince me that "At least X points of N Power" is flat
out prohibited, you will have to convince me of two propositions:

1) The term "Power" precludes consideration of anything other
than whether the character has the power or not. Logically,
this would exclude all consideration of special effect, degree,
advantages, limitations, etc.

2) The term "circumstance" may not include anything that can
be defined in terms of "At least X points of N power."

I see no reason to allow consideration of special effect or advantages,
and not allow a consideration of whether the power is at or above some
minimum value, which can only be determined in terms of the specific
campaign. Of course, you can see the set-up coming: many canonical NND
defenses are expressed in terms of having "rigid armor" or "resistant
defense covering the groin". The book doesn't refer to "Power with a
given special effect" any more than to "Power of at least a minimum
determined by the GM". Both are, IMHO, covered under a GM's power to be
reasonable.

As for circumstance, this strikes me as a deliberately elastic clause,
intended to alert the GM to the possibility that something other than a
power, as narrowly defined, may be involved. If I agree that "At least
10 points of Flash Defense" is not a Power, then I argue that it is a
circumstance.

Now, note that I believe that if a proposed NND specifies a minimum power
size, the GM should carefully inquire why the proposed minimum makes
sense, whether this should be an AVLD, and whether this NND should have
some extra cost tacked on because of an unusual defense. I just believe
that the GM should, if the circumstances warrant, have the liberty to so
define an NND without having to feel that he is making a "house rule."

BTW, how would people feel about an AVLD defined vs Hardened ED or STR/5
or some other non-standard defense? How do you handle a request for an
Adjustment Power that goes against Mental Defense if the SFX seem to
warrant it?

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "D" == Dataweaver <traveler@io.com> writes:

D> if "X amount of Flash Defense" neutralizes the power entirely, and "less
D> than X amount of Flash Defense" has no effect on the power at all, it's
D> NND, not AVLD.

I've already addressed this *twice*. This is not how NND works. This is
not how NND is described as working. This is not how any of the examples
of NND describe it working.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense
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>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:

F> I recall in the Gadgets! book,

A *second* (maybe third?) edition book. Since I get shot down for using
previous edition's material to support arguments, I do the same here.

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From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 18:07:49 -0500 (EST)
Organization: VTSFFC
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-- Start of PGP signed section.
>
> I've already addressed this *twice*. This is not how NND works. This is
> not how NND is described as working. This is not how any of the examples
> of NND describe it working.

But it is a very logical way for NND to work, assuming one is running
in a gaming universe that "X points of whatnot" is sufficiently common.
In most 250-pt 4-color supers games, "NND vs 4 pts of sonic flash def" is
too powerful because nobody has that much. In high-end games, it makes
perfect sense, because it's rare to find a character who hasn't sunk
ten points or more into various FLash defs.

Daniel Pawtowski

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense
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>>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes:

RAW> Now, in order to convince me that "At least X points of N Power" is
RAW> flat out prohibited, you will have to convince me of two propositions:

"X points of N power" does not qualify as "reasonably common"; it is
uncommon when "X" is greater than the minimum purchase requirements of the
power.

"X points of N power" is unfair; who decides how much "X" should be? And
why should different NND attacks with different values for "X" have the
same advantage cost?

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--
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
\ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 17:22:01 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Alias
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>You would use the Deep Cover Perk from Dark Champions. It costs 2
>points, and allows the character a complete false id complete with
>ID's, bank accounts, social security number, people who know the
>person as the Deep Cover, and so on. It actually should cost more
>than 2 points, IMHO as it is a powerful Perk.

The reason it's so cheap is that it can be lost; if your Deep Cover is
compromised, you "can never use that identity safely again", and you don't
get the 2 points back to spend again, they're just lost.

Damon

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 98 00:21:34
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Master Ambiguity List
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On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 20:47:29 -0800, Christopher Taylor wrote:

>>> There are several special effects which can FTL (or at least LightSpeed)
>>> in atmosphere,
>>> How can these be constructed if FTL in atms is illegal? Example,
>>> travelling on an
>>> electrical line.
>>
>> That's T-Port.
>
>someone should figure out how many points using 5" flight and noncombat
>multiples it would take to achieve lightspeed LOL

Hmm.... Speed of light = 670,000,000 mph or 1,072,000,000 kph

Assume SPD = 4

25 additional non-combat doubling yields 805,306,368 kph (10+125 points)
26 additional non-combat doubling yields 1,610,612,736 kph (10+130 points)

Let's look at 25 additional doublings (it's closer). It will take you 32212255 phases or
8053063.75 turns or 1610612.75 minutes or 26843.5 hours or 1118.5 days or just over 3
years to actually reach this velocity.

Your turn mode is 3221225472 kilometers (better make that stellar navigation roll).


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:52:13 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Alias
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Palace of Dwarves wrote:
>
> Something that i have often been curious about, is how do people
> handle multiple alias'?
> Take the Red Skull for instance. He had about seven or eight
> different alias'
> Would an alias be considered as a disadvantage or a Perk?

For anything after the first, I would use the Deep Cover perk from Dark
Champions: basically an identity that has been devised so thoroughly that
it will hold up to security checks and the like -- anything but concerted
PC or major NPC action. 2 pts.

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:57:39 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

Donald Tsang wrote:
>
> Bob Greenwade writes:
> >At 03:59 PM 3/18/1998 -0600, Donald Tsang wrote:
> >>The "+1 STUN Multiple" is the only advantage that adds to the damage
> >>of a power. This makes it extra good for high-advantage-total powers,
> >>and encouraging that by expanding its role seems bad.
> >>
> >>(2d6 EB, NND, 0 END is 25 pts for 7 stun average (3.5 pts/pip); each
> >>additional +2 stun pips only costs 5 (2.5 pts/pip))
> >
> > A restriction against this would clearly be in order, then.
>
> I would prefer the restriction be "can only be bought on KAs"

HSR, p. 95.

INCREASED STUN MULTIPLIER

This Power Advantage increases the STUN Multiple of a Killing
Attack. ... Increased Stun Multiplier has no effect on attacks
other than Killing Attacks.

Seems pretty plain to me. There is no other convenient way to describe
Killing Attacks which have a better chance to stun (such as a .45) than
to use this advantage. Other constructs (increased dice, then a
limitation that reduced BODY) seem clumsy by comparison. Use of this
advantage is flat-out explicitly prohibited for EBs.

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 20:02:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: CHAR: BTILC - Jack Burton
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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"Son of a bitch must pay!"

JACK BURTON

Designers Notes:
Jack is the would-be 'hero' of "Big Trouble", who muddles through the
movie totally clue less as to most of what is going on, but unwilling to
stand by while his friends take all the risks. Besides, he has to get his
truck back (stolen by the Lords of Death after Jack and Wan Chi ran from a
fight between the Chang Sings and the Wing Kong).

As an amusing side note, did anyone ever notice the amazingly blatant
rip-off of jack Burton featured in "Normals Unbound"? Go look up the
entry for 'Mack Bordan' and tell me that's not Jack... go ahead, I dare
you. It is also pretty obvious that the "Everyman Hero" from Feng Shui
was partially inspired by Jack.

Description:
Jack is fairly tall and well muscled, with shoulder-length brown hair and
an unshaven chin. His normal mode of dress looks to be brown moccasin
boots, blue jeans and a white tank top. Tucked into one boot is a knife.

Powers Notes:
Unlike just about everyone else in "Big Trouble", Jack doesn't have any
special skills, knowledge, martial arts training or magical powers. What
he does have is reflexes. He's pretty quick, and his hand-eye
coordination is demonstrated very early in the movie when Wang Chi tires
to cut a bottle in half with a machete in the Chinese market. Wang's chop
send the bottle flying across the table at Jack's face, and Jack snatches
right out of the the air. "It's all in the reflexes."

Later on, in the climatic fight scene with Lo Pan's minions, Jack tosses
his knife at Lo Pan and misses. Lo Pan picks up the knife ("A good knife.
Goodbye Mr. Burton.") and throws it back at him, at which point Jack grabs
the knife out o the air and hurls it *back* at Lo Pan, hitting him square
in the forehead and killing him almost instantly. (And thus illustrating
the law of fiction heroes. Fictional heroes always roll whatever they
need to ensure the proper outcome at the right time. Here, Jack put his
STR into the HKA boot knife, getting a 1d6+1 HKA, hit the head location
and rolled a 6 on the damage dice. 6+1 [x2 for a head shot] means 14
Body, more than enough to put Lo Pan down.)

Jack keeps a throwing knife in one boot, and for most of the film carries
a Tec-9 machine pistol (until Thunder punches it into dust). For all of
Jack's comp[laining about bizzare things, he does seem to blow off most of
the wierd stuff fairly easily, so I felt a little PRE defense to be
justified (for example: the scene with the Guardian.)

Disadvantages Notes:
Jacks' two Psych Lims can best be illustrated via some of his quotes. The
"Everyman Hero" psych is a combination of bravery ("Ready, Jack?" "I was
born ready."), courage ("They have this place where they hang out."
"Sharpen their knives, eh?" "I can't ask you to..." "Where is it?"
Thanks, Jack"), loyalty ("Like two, I said I was going.") and
determination ("Hey, you never know until you try."). This psych lim
basically means he will stick by his friends regardless of the outcome, it
also means he tends to try and do the 'right' things and help others if
asked. The "Overconfidence" psych comes form the fact that Jack Burton is
a 'legend in his own time'. Thus, Jack has to walk the walk and talk the
talk or else he will fail to live up to his own mental self image. Thus,
we see him punch Rain (after watching Rain blast the ceiling of a building
apart); tell Rain "Why don't you come over here and fight like a man?";
banter with David Lopan (and risk getting sent to the "Hell where people
are skinned alive!"); and utter such lines as "If we're not back by dawn,
call the President".

The Character:

STAT VAL COST
Str 18 8
Dex 15 15
Con 20 20
Body 12 4
Int 13 3
Ego 13 6
Pre 13 3
Com 14 2
PD 8 4
ED 6 2
Spd 3 5
Rec 8 0
End 40 0
Stun 31 0
Char Total 72
Power Total 106
Total Cost 178

COST POWERS & SKILLS
10 Boot Knife: 1d6-1 HKA, Ranged, 0 END, OAF
13 TEC-9: 1d6+1 RKA, AF 5, -1 RMod, 32 Shots, OAF

35 Missle Deflection/Reflection: Thrown Objects, +5 to Roll
15 Luck 3d6
2 +5 PRE, Defensive only (-1)

3 AK: San Francisco 12-
2 AK: Pacific Coast 11-
5 Combat Driving: Truck 13-
1 Disguise 8-
5 Gambling 12-
2 KS: CB Lingo 11-
3 Mechanics 11-
3 Oratory 12-
1 Persuasion 8-
2 PS: Truck Driver (Porkchop Express) 11-
4 WF: Knife, Small Arms, Thrown Knife

Disadvantages
100 Base
20 Normal Characteristic Maxima
20 Psych: "Everyman Hero" mentality
15 Psych: Overconfident - 'tough guy' mentality, a legend in his own
mind
5 Psych: Protective of his truck
10 Unluck 2d6
8 "It's all in the reflexes." bonus

(Jack Burton created by Gary Oldman, David Weinstein, W.D. Richter and
John Carpenter. Character sheet created by Michael Surbrook)

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 20:07:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: CHAR: BTILC - Wang Chi
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

"This knife cuts this bottle in half..."

WANG CHI

Designers Notes:
Wang Chi is, in my opinion, the unsung 'hero' of "Big Trouble". He puts
up with having his fiance kidnapped, getting captured by Lo Pan, being
tortured by Rain, duels Rain to the death, fights Thunder one-on-one, and
never once complains. And like many Chinese action heroes, it is his
skill and determination that allow him to see things through.

Description:
Wang Chi is fairly short, with a lithe, compact build. He has short black
hair and dark eyes. He usually is dressed in casual clothing, complete
with a "Dragon of the Black Pool" warm-up jacket.

Powers Notes:
Wang Chi's abilities are centered around his martial arts training. It
should be pretty obvious to anyone who has seen the movie that Wang Chi is
(or was) a member of the Chang Sings. He knows them and the Wing Kong too
well. His maneuvers are based off of ones he demonstrated in the film,
while the weapons elements are taken from the ones given to generic Chang
Sings.

Along with his fighting skills, Wang Chi displays a smattering of
knowledge about ancient Chinese myths and legends and the local tongs. We
seem him pick a lock in the Wing Kong Exchange, and his driving directions
to Jack would indicate a fairly good knowledge of how Chinatown is laid
out.

Disadvantages Notes:
Of all the characters in "Big Trouble", Wang Chi is probably the most
'stable'. He is loyal to his friends however ("Let's go Jack, do or
die.") and does like to gamble ("Double or nothing Jack, this knife cuts
this bottle in half."). And, if given the chance, he can be a bit of a
show off (the fight with the Wing Kong at the warehouse door and his fight
with Rain are two good examples).

The Character:

STAT VAL COST
Str 15 5
Dex 20 30
Con 15 10
Body 11 2
Int 15 5
Ego 15 10
Pre 15 5
Com 14 2
PD 7 4
ED 5 2
Spd 4 10
Rec 6 0
End 30 0
Stun 27 0
Char Total 85
Power Total 81
Total Cost 166

COST POWERS & SKILLS
5 Martial Arts: Kung Fu, use Art with Axe/Mace, Blades Clubs,
Polearms, Staff
4 Block +2 OCV +2 DCV Block, Abort
4 Dodge +0 OCV +5 DCV Dodge vs All, Abort
5 Flying Kick +1 OCV -2 DCV 7d6 Strike
5 Kick -2 OCV +1 DCV 7d6 Strike
4 Knife Hand -2 OCV +0 DCV 1/2d6 HKA (+d6+1 with STR)
4 Punch +0 OCV +2 DCV 5d6 Strike
3 Throw +0 OCV +1 DCV 3d6 +v/5; Target Falls

2 Superleap: +2"
5 AK: Chinatown 14-
3 Breakfall 13-
2 CK: San Francisco 11-
1 Gambling 8-
3 KS: Chinese myths and legends 12-
2 KS: Kung Fu 11-
4 KS: Local Tongs 13-
3 Lockpicking 13-
2 PS: Resturant Owner (Dragon of the Black Pool) 11-
3 Streetwise 12-
4 WF: Common Martial Arts Weapons, Small Arms
2 Perk: Member of Chang Sing tong
4 Lang: Cantonese (native), English (native)
6 CSL: +2 with Kung Fu

Disadvantages
75 Base
10 Hunted: Lords of Death (AsPow, Lim Geo) 11-
15 DNPC: Miao Yin 11-
15 Psych: Loyal to his friends
10 Psych: Adventurous streak (likes to gamble, can be a bit of a show
off)
41 Mind and the Spirit Going North and South Bonus

(Wang Chi created by Gary Oldman, David Weinstein, W.D. Richter and
John Carpenter. Character sheet created by Michael Surbrook)

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 21:07:45 -0500 (EST)
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--

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Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 18:16:22 -0800 (PST)
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From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Question
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Did anyone else on the list get a message from the listserv as if they had
just subscibed?
I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
But it sure feels good!
Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "jpross" <jpross@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Power Defense
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 19:24:29 -0700
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----------
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Power Defense
Date: Sunday, March 22, 1998 8:09 AM

>>>I've done something similar, but restricted it by SFX: the evil mage
>>>was shrugging off the PC mage's attacks, but he still got incinerated
>>>by the thunderbolt called down by the PC priest.
>>
>> Wait a minute -- a thunderbolt that operates against Power Defense?
>
>I said *similar*, not *the same*. The thunderbolt was divine magic, not
>a 'real' thunderbolt (3d6 Indirect Destroy [from FH1] vs Body). The
>mage had Power Defense which worked against other mages' magic, but not
>against divine magic.

The latter sentence was understood; I just hadn't gotten that the
thunderbolt was operating as Destroy. That kinda makes sense, now that you
explain it, and it certainly helps the rest of it make sense.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]

Hello,
In our FH game, we use a similar idea to differentiate SFX for types of
magic. When this question came up, it was in the middle of a game, and
honestly, they had caught me with my pants down. So, in order to avoid an
unfortunate "conversation", I went looking for established rules, that were
already accepted, to apply. I ended up with the advantage structure from
Dispel/Suppress, with added divisions along the lines of combat levels.
For example, I have several flavors of magic, from several races, and then
the divine magic is yet another type. To affect them all, the power
defense would have to be bought at +2, with the lesser advantages working
against fewer SFX. A new house rule was born. It has worked very well for
us, and I'm interested to see what you think.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 18:41:13 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Ultra Slots
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

Michael Sprague wrote:
>
>
> > Also, there is a bad side to any Multipower - the fact that all the
> powers
> > are connected. Adjustment powers are going to hit the Multipower itself
> > (most likely), so all those powers will be reduced by a single Adjustment
> > power.
>
> I am not sure that's true (note that I do play Elemental Controls this way
> though), though I am willing to have my mind changed on this subject. I am
> not sure you can usually effect the multipower pool unless you have put a
> limitation (like focus) on it.

I would say that the case for a Multipower Reserve being treated as a
single power is stronger than the case for an Elemental Control's being
treated as such. After all, in the only nearly analogous case that I
can think of: a breakable focus's being damaged, a Multipower is treated
as a single power, while no such provision is made for the powers in an
EC. Torch has a classic all-attack multipower sharing a flame SFX:

45 Multipower Reserve -- all have SFX of a flame blast
4u 9D6 EB
3u 3D6 RKA RBR
4u 4D6 EB NND(+1:LS/Heat) 1/2 END(+1/4)
4u 4D6 Flash Normal and IR Vision

Torch simply choses the mechanic he prefers in the given situation, but
all are a flame blast.

Now, Iceberg comes along with

45 4D6 Drain any flame/heat power(+1/4)

and aims it at Torch, whom he has seen using a flame power in combat. It
is, IMHO, slavish to the mechanics to require Iceberg to say, "I am
draining Torch's RKA." He says, "I am draining that flame blast,
whatever the mechanic." Fine, I would rule that the MP reserve has just
been drained, and all the slots must now fit into that reserve. I have
used this ruling against my players, and in their favor, and all seem
comfortable with it.

Of course, if the Multipower is a Utility Belt SFX, then I would probably
rule differently, because each slot is an easily distinguished power.
Then again, depending on the SFX of the drain, I might rule that it
didn't even apply.

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "Ron Abitz" <ronald@centraltx.net>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 20:44:22 -0600
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----------
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
>
> RAW> 60 6D6 EB NND, defense is to make a PRE roll. AIs and
> RAW> any "perfectly logical" aliens are immune by SFX.
>
> This one is easy, because you are using the wrong basic power.
>
> 6D6 Ego Attack, No Range, Visible to Sight group. Whether or not the
> immunity of AIs and other "perfectly logical" beings is worth a
limitation
> depends on how common they are in the campaign.
>
>
> RAW> 60 3D6 EB NND Continuous: stopped by breaking entangle
> RAW> Defenses: 10 pts Life Support or 10 PD Rigid Armor or 45 STR
> RAW> 33 5D6 Entangle Linked to EB.
>
> Again, you are working with the wrong base power. Try "Grab and Squeeze"
> or "Choke Hold".
>
How is a Entange going to "Grab squeeze" or "choke hold"

>
> RAW> I already gave the Dr. Geriatric example, which you ignored, as a
case
> RAW> where supra-minimum levels were required for game-balance reasons.
>
> RAW> 60 6D6 EB NND Defenses is LS:Aging
>
> Wow! three strikes for using the wrong power. Try a Transformation
attack
> instead (which would have Power Defense as the appropriate defense) with
a
> - -0 SFX limitation that those few characters with Life Support vs. Aging
are
> immune to the attack.
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> Xm7YGZNiP/vVkUOPDhhG3jXxJD1jLekgK4XJU4OOcXNYuRvRsvzjKO19JuakJCDI
> HN/gS5aNzsU=
> =wHCq
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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> PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture,
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at.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 19:11:51 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Subject: Throwing Damage Questions
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How do you determine throwing damage exactly. Can someone give
me a rundown of it with page numbers? Thank you.

Let me give a few examples:
Just for simplicities sake, lets assume a hit on all of these.

Character A (Str 50)throws Character B (str 20) 16".

Character A (Str 50)throws Character B (str 20) at a 16" velocity but
hits a def 8 Body 5 wall after only 7" distance.

Character A (Str 50)throws Character B (str 20) at a 16" velocity but
hits Character C after only 7" distance.

Character A (Str 50) throws a 400kg Motorcycle (Def 3 body 11) at
Character B who is 7" away.

Character A (Str 50) throws a 1600kg car (Def 3 body 14) at Character B
who is 7" away.

--
Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role
Playing

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Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 19:22:20 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Subject: Mailing List address moved?
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To: champ-l@omg.org
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Hello;
I just got this message (see below).
Has the mailing list moved? whill the old address work?
if it has me as rook@infinex.com can I no longer post from an
unsubscribed address? (my isp adds random domains to the name on my
emailer, so if this is the case I'll have to drop as traffic is too
high to subscribe 4 or 5 times...)

If this change is not yet active, when will it be and what will
it entail?




>
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>
> Please save this message for future reference. Thank you.
>
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> If you ever need to get in contact with the owner of the list,
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>
> [Last updated on: Thu Mar 19 17:18:34 1998]
> This is the default list intro.
> Hopefully the list-owner will change it



--
Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role
Playing

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X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 19:22:49 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

> INCREASED STUN MULTIPLIER
>
> This Power Advantage increases the STUN Multiple of a Killing
> Attack. ... Increased Stun Multiplier has no effect on attacks
> other than Killing Attacks.
>
>Seems pretty plain to me. There is no other convenient way to describe
>Killing Attacks which have a better chance to stun (such as a .45) than
>to use this advantage. Other constructs (increased dice, then a
>limitation that reduced BODY) seem clumsy by comparison. Use of this
>advantage is flat-out explicitly prohibited for EBs.

Not only that but, as a warning to GMs thinking it might not be SO bad...
look what happens when you use hit locations with this advantage:

6D6 normal attack, averages 21 stun, with a hit location this
ends up being x1 in most cases. But with +1 stun modifier, this
doubles the stun damage done... before defenses... for a measly +1/2

Fear the stun multiple with hit locations... avoid it like the plague for
normal attacks.


----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 22 Mar 1998 22:25:08 -0500
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>>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes:

>> "X points of N power" is unfair; who decides how much "X" should be?
>> And why should different NND attacks with different values for "X" have
>> the same advantage cost?

RAW> Ah! Now we are into a different realm: whether the proposed NND makes
RAW> sense in the *particular campaign*.

I *TRIED* to keep this on a generic level, but I was given little choice.

[...]

RAW> 1) The defense is a high level of a universal power, such as 18 INT or
RAW> 20 total PD. I have also seen "making an INT roll" as the defense,
RAW> which is philosophically similar.

And just as bogus. They way NND is structured, how much someone paid for a
a power that is applicable as a defense has no relevance. If the ammount
of defense should have relevance then the advantage is AVLD, not NND.

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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
\

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Question
Reply-To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
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>>>>> "JD" == John Desmarais <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> writes:

JD> That was my fault.

I do not consider it a fault. Mj's "welcome to the list" message is a good
thing.

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\ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Yelomonkey <Yelomonkey@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:29:13 EST
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

I once had a player who durring the day was MindStar a Mentalist ,
public Id basicly the teams media contact and PR man. At night when he would
go after th vilians that he couldnt touch as goody two shoes and was known to
seirously injure and rarely kill, as TramuaHawk he was actualy hunted by his
own team for a while :)
This is the only PC I hav ever seen with both secret and public ID , somehow I
just cant see any abuse here or any reason to change both to reputations.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 19:30:18 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: World's Greatest Heroes
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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Alien invasions are a classic.
So are mystic/magical type things, or anything which involves travel
to another dimension
Lost or hidden civilizations which must be discovered/explored/dealt
with.
Galactus-type 'cosmic entities'.
Look at the first 50 or so issues of the Fantastic Four, arguably one
of the most 'cosmic' of teams.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Subject: Re: Throwing Damage Questions
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Date: 22 Mar 1998 22:34:15 -0500
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>>>>> "R" == Rook <rook@infinex.com> writes:

R> Character A (Str 50)throws Character B (str 20) 16".

Character A does Strength damage.

R> Character A (Str 50)throws Character B (str 20) at a 16" velocity but
R> hits a def 8 Body 5 wall after only 7" distance.

Character A does Strength damage.

R> Character A (Str 50)throws Character B (str 20) at a 16" velocity but
R> hits Character C after only 7" distance.

Character A does Strength damage.

R> Character A (Str 50) throws a 400kg Motorcycle (Def 3 body 11) at
R> Character B who is 7" away.

Character A does Strength damage up to DEF + BODY of the object DCs to a
one hex area.

R> Character A (Str 50) throws a 1600kg car (Def 3 body 14) at Character B
R> who is 7" away.

Character A does Strength damage up to the DEF + BODY of the object DCs to
a two hex area.

The pattern should be obvious by this point. :)

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\

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 19:44:16 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes:
>
> RAW> Now, in order to convince me that "At least X points of N Power" is
> RAW> flat out prohibited, you will have to convince me of two propositions:
>
> "X points of N power" does not qualify as "reasonably common"; it is
> uncommon when "X" is greater than the minimum purchase requirements of the
> power.
>
> "X points of N power" is unfair; who decides how much "X" should be? And
> why should different NND attacks with different values for "X" have the
> same advantage cost?

Ah! Now we are into a different realm: whether the proposed NND makes
sense in the *particular campaign*. To your first question, I would
answer that the GM should make such determinations. As to your second
question, I would consider this fair under the following circumstances:

1) The defense is a high level of a universal power, such as 18 INT or 20
total PD. I have also seen "making an INT roll" as the defense, which is
philosophically similar.

2) The attack is being built for a major villain, who can easily pay and
is charged extra for the privilege of having a super-NND. If the GM does
this for villains, it is fair to allow players to do so, also at an extra
cost.

3) The defense is any of a set of uncommon defenses, and the extra points
are being used to make the components uncommon. For example, the
defense to Dr. Geriatric's Senescence Ray might be LS: does not age OR 20
rED OR 10rED with LS:Radiation.

I believe that these interpretations as within the spirit and letter of
the rules. I also agree that, in general, all NND defenses should be
"reasonably common", which I interpret to mean 10% to 25% of all
opponents.

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 21:44:23 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Help Steve Long! (Re: Villain Secret IDs)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org


> >Of course, that is changing in this day of child abductions. It
> >would be a real hoot if some supervillain got identified because his
> >mother had him fingerprinted when he was a wee lad--to guard against
> >kidnapping.
>
> A small point, but they take footprints of small children (heel-prints,
> actually).

Are you sure? I remember being fingerprinted for a safety-type
thing around age 6-8.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:00:53 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Master Ambiguity List
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org


> > > - Does damage carry over in multiform?
> >
> > A problem to very few. Most seem willing to allow this to be
> > defined by SFX.
>
> Agreed. However perhaps that itself needs to be stated.

Why? Why assume that those buying the book are stupid. Maybe a
blanket statement that _all_ powers are SFX dependant subject to the GMs
whim.

> Can change environment let you affect objects in an environment (the
> speedster trick),
> or just the environment itself?

Again, SFX dependant -- but a GM will make some calls based on
cost balance.

> Can Extra Dimensional Movement be used as long distance T-Port as
> suggested in USM?

Leave this one as a possibility with a stop sign. It could be
unbalancing.

> There are several special effects which can FTL (or at least LightSpeed)
> in atmosphere,
> How can these be constructed if FTL in atms is illegal? Example,
> travelling on an
> electrical line.

That's T-Port.

-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:24:24 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Life support as defense
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org


> But this is irrelvant. The way NND works, if "Flash Defense" is the
> non-normal defense and you have just 1 point of Flash Defense, you are
> immune to the attack. Requiring "X ammount of Flash Defense" is really an
> AVLD.

Uh, Rat? You forgot the "IMHO" there, seeing as that is totally
within the realm of your personal opinion.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:25:49 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: RE: Presence Attacks
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org


> >or the wonderful Dragon swooping down with a horrendous roar and breathing
> >fire in floods for a little presence attack
>
> Err.. 'not so little'. Remember the scene in Dragonslayer where
> Vermithrax torches the village and everyone runs? He's achieving PRE+30
> (ie getting at least 40 on his dice), and he's only getting +4d6.

+4d6? That's low. Violent action, exhibiting powers,
mega-extreme reputation.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:29:24 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> >Agreed - to me, having both would be restricted to the Scarlet
> >Pimpernel or 'missing heir to throne' types, but in the Superhero
> >world, how about an opera diva who is also a Superheroine? Or just
> >suppose that Greg Norman was also a Superhero? Or Margaret Thatcher
> >really was The Iron Maiden? In all cases the non-hero id justifies the
> >PI disad, and the hero id justifies the SI disad.
>
> I can find one situation that would be even worse... how about a
> well-known and prominent superheroine with two completely separate Secret
> Identities, of whom one is a famous model and the other a prominent
> off-Broadway actress?

I've had the situation, but the actress wasn't quite famous enough
for the Public ID. Of course, the Superhero ID also acted (under another
ID altogether)


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 20:47:29 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Master Ambiguity List
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>> There are several special effects which can FTL (or at least LightSpeed)
>> in atmosphere,
>> How can these be constructed if FTL in atms is illegal? Example,
>> travelling on an
>> electrical line.
>
> That's T-Port.

someone should figure out how many points using 5" flight and noncombat
multiples it would take to achieve lightspeed LOL

----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:48:23 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Life support as defense
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org


> "X points of N power" does not qualify as "reasonably common"; it is
> uncommon when "X" is greater than the minimum purchase requirements of the
> power.

Why uncommon? Perhaps the purchase at the higher amount is common
in a certain (or many) campaign(s).

> "X points of N power" is unfair; who decides how much "X" should be? And
> why should different NND attacks with different values for "X" have the
> same advantage cost?

Actually, it would be decided by the player, with supervision by
the GM. This is quite standard for almost anything. And as for your
second question: Both Force Field (ED) and Resistant ED are valid
defenses for an NND, even though the later is a subset of the former. Why
should both cost the same, using your logic.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 23:00:23 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Master Ambiguity List
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org


> someone should figure out how many points using 5" flight and noncombat
> multiples it would take to achieve lightspeed LOL

Um, no multiples necessary. Just make SFX to turn to light at
move up to 5". The actual movement is quite FTL.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 21:02:20 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: FTL using flight
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

Ran some numbers, looks like 5" with 24 extra noncombat multiples will do
it, but have fun turning LOL

----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 00:15:58 -0500
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Master Ambiguity List
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 08:47 PM 3/22/98 -0800, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>>> There are several special effects which can FTL (or at least LightSpeed)
>>> in atmosphere,
>>> How can these be constructed if FTL in atms is illegal? Example,
>>> travelling on an
>>> electrical line.
>>
>> That's T-Port.
>
>someone should figure out how many points using 5" flight and noncombat
>multiples it would take to achieve lightspeed LOL

Let's see, 5" = 10 meters. Light moves 300,000,000 m/s or 3,600,000,000
meters per turn. Dividing out the 10 meters gets us to 360,000,000 m/turn
which is less than 536870912 (2^29)

Thus, at speed 1 it would take 5" with 29 NCM (28 + the free one) to go
1.49 times the speed of light (536870912/360000000) for a cost of 145. At
speed 2 it takes one less NCM (28), another one less at speed 4 (27 NCM),
another at speed 8 (26 NCM).

Now, how many phases does it take to get to light speed? And what is your
DCV? :-)

Joe


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 23:20:59 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Subject: Re: Master Ambiguity List
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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> > someone should figure out how many points using 5" flight and noncombat
> > multiples it would take to achieve lightspeed LOL
>
> Um, no multiples necessary. Just make SFX to turn to light at
> move up to 5". The actual movement is quite FTL.

Er, make that Exactly at light.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:55:52 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Subject: FTL in Atmosphere (Re: Master Ambiguity List)
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Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> > someone should figure out how many points using 5" flight and noncombat
> > multiples it would take to achieve lightspeed LOL
>
> Um, no multiples necessary. Just make SFX to turn to light at
> move up to 5". The actual movement is quite FTL.

So given that 5" should be able to let me move at lightspeed with no
noncombat multiples, what speed score do I need?
After all, if I can move at light speed, I should be able to
cover the distance of 12 light seconds per 12 second turn. At only 5"
movement, that's going to take a wee bit of speed. :)

--
Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role
Playing

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:58:34 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
Subject: Ambiguity List addition: Throwing Damage, Object Damage.
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Here's one for the list of unclear things. Define how much damage is
done from throwing or hitting with a blunt object in a clear manner.
If it is just Str, explain why a steel guirder (sp?) does the same
damage as a fist. :)

--
Rook
__
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\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role
Playing

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Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:58:34 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
To: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org&>
"'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Ambiguity List addition: Throwing Damage, Object Damage.
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Here's one for the list of unclear things. Define how much damage is
done from throwing or hitting with a blunt object in a clear manner.
If it is just Str, explain why a steel guirder (sp?) does the same
damage as a fist. :)

--
Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role
Playing

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Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 23:16:28 -0800 (PST)
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From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Re: Ambiguity List addition: Throwing Damage, Object Damage.
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At 10:58 PM 3/22/98 -0800, Rook wrote:
>Here's one for the list of unclear things. Define how much damage is
>done from throwing or hitting with a blunt object in a clear manner.
> If it is just Str, explain why a steel guirder (sp?) does the same
>damage as a fist. :)

Absolutely.. that has always bothered me. I've heard the "game" balance
argument but it seems thin...since any character can say pick up something
and swing it....
I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
But it sure feels good!
Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior

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Subject: Re: Ambiguity List addition: Throwing Damage, Object Damage.
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org&>
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At 10:58 PM 3/22/98 -0800, Rook wrote:
>Here's one for the list of unclear things. Define how much damage is
>done from throwing or hitting with a blunt object in a clear manner.
> If it is just Str, explain why a steel guirder (sp?) does the same
>damage as a fist. :)

Absolutely.. that has always bothered me. I've heard the "game" balance
argument but it seems thin...since any character can say pick up something
and swing it....
I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
But it sure feels good!
Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior

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From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Ambiguity List addition: Throwing Damage, Object Damage.
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 02:48:26 -0500 (EST)
Organization: VTSFFC
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> done from throwing or hitting with a blunt object in a clear manner.
> If it is just Str, explain why a steel guirder (sp?) does the same
> damage as a fist. :)

I usually do give a character a damage bonus for picking up a club and
hitting somebody with it. Now, if a character starts to do this too much,
then I'd make them buy some points of HA, Focused to "Clubs of opportunity"
or somesuch, so that they've paid points for the ability to do extra
damage.
Let's see here.... I usually give about an extra 4d6 for swinging
an I-Beam. Now, unless you're fighting at a construction site, it'll
take several phases to locate and uproot an I-Beam from an existing
building. And I think we ended up giving about an extra six dice to
a brick who did a move-through while carrying a diesel locomotive.
(Don't worry about property damage, the train belonged to Prof. Murete :-)
In superhero games, it generally dosen't come up that much, really.
If a 60-STR brick wants to use a club, then he's got to find something
laying around with DEF+BODY of greater than 12, otherwise he'll just
break it and do less damage than a fist would've. In lower-powered
games, then it does become easier to find suitable clubs.

Daniel Pawtowski


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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 00:18:37 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Ambiguity List addition: Throwing Damage, Object Damage.
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At 02:48 AM 3/23/98 -0500, Daniel Pawtowski wrote:

> In superhero games, it generally dosen't come up that much,
really.
>If a 60-STR brick wants to use a club, then he's got to find
something
>laying around with DEF+BODY of greater than 12, otherwise he'll just
>break it and do less damage than a fist would've. In lower-powered
>games, then it does become easier to find suitable clubs.
>
In the incident in question, our brick picked up an unconscious power-
suited villain and hurled him at the foe...
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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 00:42:04 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: FTL using flight
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Christopher Taylor wrote:
>
> Ran some numbers, looks like 5" with 24 extra noncombat multiples will do
> it, but have fun turning LOL

If the character is SPD 5, then 5"/phase = 50m/turn = 4.333m/sec

c~=30,000,000m/s

(log c - log 4.333)/log 2 = 22.780

Thus, 22 extra ncm will do, since you get one for free.

Oh, and it takes several months to get to velocity:
7,200,000 phases = 17,280,000 seconds = 4800 hrs = 200 days.

But, who's counting?

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 02:45:50 -0600 (CST)
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From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: WildCAT's
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Here is the first WildCAT this version of Voodoo is slightly more like the
cartoon version than the comic book, I created these for a con game and
wanted each character to be fairly useful.

Voodoo
13 STR 3
20 DEX 30
18 CON 16
15 BODY 10
13 INT 3
20 EGO 20
18 PRE 8
26 COM 8
8 PD 5
5 ED 1
5 SPD 20
7 REC 0
36 END 0
32 STUN 1
Characteristics Cost: 125

15 EC (15)
15a) 15/15 Force Field 3
15b) 15" Flight 3
15c) 20 STR TK 3
62 MP (50),1/2 END
5u 10D6 EB,"T.K. Punch",vs physical defense,beam attack 3
6u 5D6 Ego Attack 3
4u 10D6 Telepathy,Single Target 3
6u 25 STR TK,fine manipulation 3
11u 20 STR TK,Area Effect,any area 3
10 2 Levels: MP,related group
3 Stealth 13-
7 Discriminatory,"The Sight",Detect,Ranged
7 Aura Sense (as per Hero Almanac) 12-
102 4 1/2D6 Transform,"Exorcisist",major,cumulative,Desc:
Daemonite to human 10
3 PS: Dancer 13-,(DEX based)
3 Acrobatics 13-
3 Conversation 13-
3 Streetwise 13-
3 Seduction 13-
20 Wildcats COMIC BOOK SFX/SKILL PACKAGE

Powers Cost: 318
Total Cost: 443

Base Points: 150
13 Enraged,"FRIENDS HURT",very common,occur 11-,recover 11-
5 DNPC,"WildC.A.T.S.",as powerful,useful skills,appear 14-
20 Hunted,"Black Razors",more powerful,non-combat influence,
harsh,appear 8-
25 Hunted,"Lord Helspont",more powerful,non-combat influence,
harsh,appear 11-
15 Hunted,"Daemonites",more powerful,harsh,appear 8-
10 Rep,"WILDC.A.T.",occur 11-
15 Secret ID,"Priscilla Kitaen"
5 Unluck,1D6
10 Distinctive,"Extreme Beauty",concealable,minor
5 Psych Lim,"Unsure of self",uncommon,moderate
10 Psych Lim,"Naive",common,moderate
10 Watched,"Coda",more powerful,non-combat influence,harsh,
appear 8-

Disadvantages Total: 143
Experience Spent: 150
Total Points: 443
Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist recently updated web site...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm

"You have never lived until you have almost died.
And for those who fight for it,
life has a flavor the protected never know"
- anonymous

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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 02:45:52 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: mlnunn@blue.net
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Zealot
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Zealot

35 STR 25
27 DEX 51
23 CON 26
14 BODY 8
18 INT 8
13 EGO 6
20 PRE 10
20 COM 5
15 PD 8
13 ED 8
6 SPD 23
12 REC 0
46 END 0
47 STUN 3
Characteristics Cost: 181

7 12/10 Damage Resistance,"Body Armor",OIF
11 1 1/2D6 RKA,"Throwing Blades",vs physical defense,5-6
Charges,recoverable,OAF 0
15 2D6 HKA,"Katana 4wstr.",vs physical defense,OAF 3
0 Coda Martial Art Training
5 Defense Maneuver
4 Weapon Bind
4 M Strike
3 Legsweep
4 Martial Escape
4 Reversal
4 Martial Block
4 Martial Dodge
0 Weapon Groups,All hand to hand
3 Life Support,immune to aging
3 Acrobatics 14-
3 Breakfall 14-
3 Contortionist 14-
3 Deduction 13-
3 Stealth 14-
3 Paramedic 13-
3 13- Combat Sense
3 Weaponsmith 11-
8 WF,Flails,Quarterstaff,Common Melee,Common Missile,Small
Arms
5 1 Levels: Martial Arts,related group
16 2 Levels,all combat
8 12" Running,OIF 2
20 Wildcats COMIC BOOK SFX/SKILL PACKAGE
8 PKG
(0) Wildcats Package
(1) TF,Planes,PILOT MIRV
(3) 8 Mental Defense,REQUIRES AN EGO ROLL
(8) HR Radio,IIF
(-4) PACKAGE BONUS

Powers Cost: 157
Total Cost: 338

Base Points: 150
5 Enraged,"Innocent Hurt",uncommon,occur 8-,recover 11-
10 Enraged,"Back Attacked",common,occur 11-,recover 11-
8 Enraged,"Teammates Slain",uncommon,occur 11-,recover 11-
15 Psych Lim,"Loyal to team",common,strong
15 Psych Lim,"Code of Honor",common,strong
10 Psych Lim,"Love of Combat",uncommon,strong
15 Psych Lim,"Vengeful",common,strong
10 Watched,"superiors",as powerful,non-combat influence,harsh,
appear 11-
15 Hunted,"Lord Helspont",more powerful,harsh,appear 8-
15 Hunted,"Daemonites",more powerful,harsh,appear 8-
10 Rep,"WILDC.A.T.",occur 11-
5 DNPC,"WildC.A.T.S.",as powerful,useful skills,appear 14-

Disadvantages Total: 133
Experience Spent: 55
Total Points: 338
Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist recently updated web site...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm

"You have never lived until you have almost died.
And for those who fight for it,
life has a flavor the protected never know"
- anonymous

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 02:45:55 -0600 (CST)
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From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Grifter
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Grifter

20 STR 10
23 DEX 39
18 CON 16
14 BODY 8
13 INT 3
14 EGO 8
20 PRE 10
14 COM 2
17 PD 13
10 ED 6
5 SPD 17
10 REC 4
36 END 0
42 STUN 9
Characteristics Cost: 145

4 Martial Block
4 Martial Disarm
4 Killing Strike
3 Martial Throw
4 Nerve Strike
4 Martial Dodge
4 M Strike
8 Damage Class +2DC
1 Weapon Groups,Swords/Blades
7 Tracking 14-
7 Stealth 16-
3 Acrobatics 14-
3 Breakfall 14-
3 Concealment 12-
3 Paramedic 12-
3 Persuasion 13-
3 Security Systems 12-
7 Survival 13-
3 Shadowing 11-
3 Streetwise 13-
8 WF,Grenade Launchers,Heavy Machine Guns,Rocket Launchers,
Ship-To-Ship,Common Melee,Small Arms
45 MP (60),"VAD PP30 40mm hand gun; 30 CHARGES; 4 CLIPS",OAF,
17-32 Charges,4 Clips
4u 8D6 EB,beam attack,x1 Armor Piercing 0
4u 8D6 EB,beam attack,Explosion 0
4u 11D6 EB,stun only 0
4u 8D6 EB,beam attack,x5 Autofire 0
2 4 Rng Levels: Advanced optical combat scope,OAF,Linked,"VAD
PP30"
2 UV Vision,"Targeting rod",OAF
2 IR Vision,"Targeting rod",OAF
5 Extra VAD PP30
7 14- Combat Sense
9 3 Levels: Gun,tight group
20 2 Levels,all skills
15 MP (30),"UTILITY BELT",OAF
1u Eiditic,+8T-vision/+4T-hear
1u +15"Superleap/15"Swinging: LINE GUN
1u LS-Sealed sys/heat/+12 r.e.d.
1u 2D6 RKA,"Laser Torch, 16 charges" 3
1u 2" Darkness,Sight,x5 Autofire,9-12 Charges,continuing,
duration: extra phase 0
1u 1D6 RKA,Area Effect,Penetrating,7-8 Charges,continuing,
duration: 1 turn 0
1u 2D6 Flash,Sight Group,9-12 Charges 0
1u Glider Pac. 20" glide/+5"fly
1u 3D6 Entangle,9-12 Charges 0
18 8/10 Armor,"Trench Coat",OIF
3 7" Superleap 1
6 +3" Running 1
8 PKG
(0) Wildcats Package
(1) TF,Planes,PILOT MIRV
(3) 8 Mental Defense,REQUIRES AN EGO ROLL
(8) HR Radio,IIF
(-4) PACKAGE BONUS
20 Wildcats COMIC BOOK SFX/SKILL PACKAGE

Powers Cost: 276
Total Cost: 421

Base Points: 150
13 Enraged,"FRIENDS HURT",very common,occur 11-,recover 11-
15 Psych Lim,"Loyal to team",common,strong
15 Psych Lim,"VENGEFUL",very common,moderate
15 Psych Lim,"Cold Blooded",common,strong
15 Secret ID,"Cole Cash"
20 Hunted,"Black Razors",more powerful,non-combat influence,
harsh,appear 8-
10 Physical Lim,"Mutate",frequently,slightly
5 DNPC,"WildC.A.T.S.",as powerful,useful skills,appear 14-
10 Rep,"WILDC.A.T.",occur 11-
15 Hunted,"Lord Helspont",more powerful,harsh,appear 8-
15 Hunted,"Daemonites",more powerful,harsh,appear 8-
5 Watched,"GOVERNMENT",less powerful,non-combat influence,
harsh,appear 8-

Disadvantages Total: 153
Experience Spent: 118
Total Points: 421
Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist recently updated web site...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm

"You have never lived until you have almost died.
And for those who fight for it,
life has a flavor the protected never know"
- anonymous

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 02:45:59 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: mlnunn@blue.net
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Maul
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15/20 STR 5
18 DEX 24
36 CON 52
12 BODY 4
16 INT 6
13 EGO 6
20 PRE 10
14 COM 2
24/25 PD 21
18/19 ED 11
4 SPD 12
15 REC 10
72 END 0
60 STUN 22
Characteristics Cost: 185

5 Instant Change
6 1 LVLS Density Increase (stats already included),Always On,
Only In Hero ID,0 END Persistent 0
100 15 LVLS Growth(32m,3.2kt,+15 BODY/STUN,-10 DCV,+75 STR,-15
KB),Extra Time,only to start power,Only In Hero ID,0 END
Persistent 0
26 15/15 Armor,Linked,"GROWTH",Only In Hero ID
20 +45 PRE,"+3PRE/lvl. Growth",OFFENSIVE ONLY,Linked,"GROWTH",
Only In Hero ID
51 +30" Running,Linked,"GROWTH",Only In Hero ID,0 END 0
10 15/10 Damage Resistance,Only In Hero ID
8 PKG
(0) Wildcats Package
(1) TF,Planes,PILOT MIRV
(3) 8 Mental Defense,REQUIRES AN EGO ROLL
(8) HR Radio,IIF
(-4) PACKAGE BONUS
20 Wildcats COMIC BOOK SFX/SKILL PACKAGE
10 2 Levels: hand-to-hand,related group

Powers Cost: 256
Total Cost: 441

Base Points: 150
20 Hunted,"Black Razors",more powerful,non-combat influence,
harsh,appear 8-
15 Hunted,"Lord Helspont",more powerful,harsh,appear 8-
15 Hunted,"Daemonites",more powerful,harsh,appear 8-
10 Rep,"WILDC.A.T.",occur 11-
5 DNPC,"WildC.A.T.S.",as powerful,useful skills,appear 14-
13 Enraged,"FRIENDS HURT",very common,occur 11-,recover 11-
15 Losses one(1) INT pt. for every lvl. Gr
20 Berserk,"Each action after INT reaches 3",common,occur 11-,
recover 11-
20 Physical Lim,"The biger Maul gets the Dumber Maul gets",
frequently,fully
20 Distinctive,"Maul is huge and Purple",not concealable,major
15 Secret ID,"Jeremy Stone"

Disadvantages Total: 168
Experience Spent: 123
Total Points: 441
Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist recently updated web site...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm

"You have never lived until you have almost died.
And for those who fight for it,
life has a flavor the protected never know"
- anonymous

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Speedsters
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 01:09:09 -0800
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On Saturday, March 21, 1998 1:48 PM, Robert A. West wrote:


>FRESHMAN PHYSICS ALERT!
>
>The following is an analysis of a SFX argument that appealed to
concepts
>of real-world physics. I know that some on this list despise such
>discussions: if you are one of those, please delete this message now.

>
<snip>
>Sorry, Filksinger, but this isn't how it works. You are ignoring the
>difference between Force and Energy: they are fundamentally different
>quantities. In qualitative terms, to do something at all, you must
have
>enough Force to overcome the resistive force(s). If you cannot do
the
>thing at all, you are doing no useful Work, although you may be
spending
>Energy in heating up the atmosphere or melting the circuits. If you
have
>enough force to do a thing, then having more energy available allows
you
>to do more Work.


Sorry, but I have ignored nothing. Check below.

>Where people get confused, is that real world machines are limited
both
>by force and by energy available. A lantern battery may be rated at
12
>volts (analogous to force) but it can only deliver a couple of watts.
If
>you try to use it to start a car, the car will draw more amps than
the
>battery can deliver, and the chemical reactions will saturate,
causing a
>catastophic drop in voltage.

True.

>Faced with ten weights, Tenspeed can lift them onto a shelf in about
the
>time that one normal would lift one, but if his STR exerted per
action is
>the same as a normal, his speed will not help if he is just lifting.


If his speed is produced by a compression of time, this is not the
case. Read on.

>Why should this be? You analyze this from an energy expended POV.
OK,
>let us assume that Tenspeed does exert 10x as much energy per unit
time.
>Does this translate into ten times as much force? The fundamental
>kinematic relations for non-relativistic speeds and constant masses
are:
>
> WORK = FORCE x DISTANCE (1)
> FORCE = MASS x ACCELERATION (2)


ACCELERATION=DISTANCExTIMExTIME (3). Keep an eye on this one. It is
key.

>Work refers to energy that moves an object.
>
>Now, a STR 10 can lift 100kg in normal earth gravity, which is
10.8m/s^2.

That's 9.8 m/s^2.

>This means by (2) that a normal can exert 1080 newtons of force.

Note that you have agreed that the force delivered by a normal is 1080
newtons. First, of course, this shoucl be 980 newtons. Additionally,
this measurement is inaccurate because the human, in lifting, requires
the ability to match gravity, at 1080 newtons, just to hold the weight
up. More is required to move the body in a field which exerts force
against that movement, but we don't want to confuse things.

Note that a newton is defined as the force required to move a 1kg
object 1 meter per second faster every second.
FORCE=MASSxDISTANCExTIMExTIME.

>Face
>the normal with lifting a 500kg rock, and the resistive force due to
>gravity is 5400 newtons: the normal simply cannot lift the rock.
>DISTANCE = 0, so by (1)

>
> WORK = 1080 newtons x 0 meters = 0 joules.
>
>The speedster will do 10x this much work. 10x0 = 0, so work remains
>zero: even Tenspeed cannot lift the rock: he can only fail to do so
ten
>times as often.


Do you agree that Tenspeed can accelerate ten times as fast as a
normal man? If a normal man can reach a speed of, say, 10
meters/second in the space of one second, then Tenspeed can reach a
speed of 10 meters/second in 1/10th of a second.

ACCELERATION=DISTANCExTIMExTIME. Lets look at an object, such as a
rocket, that accelerates at a rate of 1 meter/second/second. If you
placed it within a field where time ran at 10 times normal speed, then
it would expell the same amount of propellant in 1 second as it
normally does in 10, making it accelerate 10 times as fast.

Force is dependent upon acceleration, which is dependent upon time,
therefore force is dependent upon time. According to (2), F=MxA, and
according to (3), A=DxTxT, therefore F=MxDxAxA. So, if Tenspeed is ten
times as fast, he can produce 10 times the acceleration, and thus 10
times the force.

So, if a normal man can exert 980 newtons, Tenspeed can exert 9800
newtons. Thus, he could lift your 500kg rock.

>Now, wait a minute! Tenspeed uses END at 10x the normal rate, and is
>perspiring somthing awful! Doesn't that show an expenditure of
energy?

Absolutely. And you are correct in where this energy goes, IF the
weight does not move.

>The answer is found in the difference between isometrics and
isotonics.
>
>Bodies convert chemical energy into force by minute contractions of
>muscle fibres. Since the human body is not rigid, if the force
exerted
>is not enough to cause macroscopic motion, the body will still
vibrate,
>doing work on itself. The rock doesn't move, but the body heats up.


True, but not actually relevant to the case at hand.

>>
>> The hard science fiction author Larry Niven played up this point in
>> one of his "Gil the ARM" stories. A flashlight, shining normally
>> inside of a field where time effectively was 400 times faster than
>> normal would burn people down in a second, as all of the energy
>> normally released in 400 seconds was dumped into their bodies in
one
>> second. The targets, of course, moved _far_ to slowly to dodge.
>
>Well, Larry Niven's scientific gaffes are legendary -- recall the
hordes
>of MIT sophomores at Boskone chanting, "Ringworld is unstable!
Ringworld
>is unstable!"
>
>For any who don't know about this, Niven assumed that a Ringworld
would
>share the fundamental stability of a Dyson Sphere, which it does,
>*provided* that the star at the center is constrained somehow to
remain
>in the plane of the ring. If not, any small perturbing force will
draw
>the star out of the plane, and once out of the plane, any small
>perturbing force in the plane of the Ringworld will now be amplified,
not
>damped. The result is rapid destruction.


In fact, I would call this a small gaffe, rather than a large one.
True, it does mean that the Ringworld is unstable, but a) this is not
truly obvious to a non-engineer or physicist, and 2) it could be dealt
with.

>Of course, Niven then proceeded to write the Ringworld Engineers,
which
>described how the star *was* constrained to stay in place, but even
he
>didn't try to pretend that this wasn't retconning.


Agreed, it was retconning.

A bigger gaffe, in that there was no real way around the fact that the
hero should have died, was in "Neutron Star", where the hero would
only have survived if he was as thin as a thin piano wire or made out
of materials considerably stronger than human flesh. In fact, at the
thickness of a thin adult male body (the hero was thin), he would
probably have to be tougher than steel.

>As for the 400x effect, if a flashlight is 10 watts (a bright
>flashlight),

I've seen considerably brighter ones. True, the brightest was a very
powerful flashlight that ran off a car's power system, but the killer
used a camping flashlight from well over 100 years in the future. I'd
automatically assume that it was as powerful as those big flashlights,
with the ability to be adjusted to boot.

>then the result would be 4000 watts (as viewed externally),
>which is hot, but not burn up in seconds hot.

Take a 100 watt light bulb in a lamp. Put your hand on it. Now, turn
it on for 40 seconds. Now, as you bandage your burns, recall that your
body is cooling your hand this entire time via blood flow. The light
was so focused that it only burned the faces of the victims, but did
not severely burn the walls.

Yes, you could burn someone pretty badly this way. Did he overdo it?
Yes, unless the flashlight was very, even blindingly, powerful, but
not by as much as you'd think. If he was going to use it as a murder
weapon from the begining, we can assume he would have gotten a
dangerously powerful light for the purpose. He was a physicist, after
all, and knew what he needed. With the technological advances possible
by that time, it could probably be no larger than a normal flashlight.

> Moreover, the battery
>would exhaust itself in 1/400 the normal time: if it would last one
hour,
>then it lasts for 10 seconds as viewed externally.


Most flashlights today last a lot longer than one hour. The killer had
enough batteries in his camp light to last him six months, remember?
No problem there. He can change the battery, if necessary, faster than
they can move their heads a foot.

The much bigger gaffe was at the end. The killer, when fighting to get
away from Gil the ARM, would have been pulling 400x more forcefully
than normal. He should have pulled Gil right into the field, where the
flashlight would be useless as a weapon.

Filksinger

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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 01:20:22 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Throwing Damage Questions
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>
> R> Character A (Str 50)throws Character B (str 20) 16".
>
> Character A does Strength damage.

If Character B is not hitting any other character or upright object, I
would rule that the damage is the lesser of STR damage or the Knockback
damage that would have been taken: in this case 8D6, and give Character B
a Breakfall roll at -8 to avoid damage. This situation differs from
Character B as a Thrown Weapon, since there is nothing upright to target.

This also assumes that Character B is unwilling: if B is a willing
participant and this is a practised trick, we have an entirely different
kettle of fish.

\

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 01:42:28 -0800
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On Sunday, March 22, 1998 2:10 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "F" == Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> writes:
>
>F> I recall in the Gadgets! book,
>
>A *second* (maybe third?) edition book. Since I get shot down for
using
>previous edition's material to support arguments, I do the same here.


I am not using the material as support for my arguments, I am using
the material for an example of a perfectly valid SFX that would cause
an attack to be usable against 3 PD Armor, but not 12 PD Armor.

You still haven't told me how you would write up a power with this
SFX.

Filksinger

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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 01:48:21 -0800
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On Sunday, March 22, 1998 2:16 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes:
>
>RAW> Now, in order to convince me that "At least X points of N Power"
is
>RAW> flat out prohibited, you will have to convince me of two
propositions:
>
>"X points of N power" does not qualify as "reasonably common"; it is
>uncommon when "X" is greater than the minimum purchase requirements
of the
>power.


You want to argue that 5 PD Armor is not "reasonably common"? Fine. "X
points of N, M, or O power". Throw in enough powers, and obviously it
eventually must exceed the lower limits of "reasonably common".

>"X points of N power" is unfair; who decides how much "X" should be?

The same person who decides if 10 pts LS is "reasonably common"; the
GM.

>And
>why should different NND attacks with different values for "X" have
the
>same advantage cost?

They do now. Or do all valid defenses cost the same in your campaign?
I doubt it.

Filksinger

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Ambiguity List addition: Throwing Damage, Object Damage.
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 04:17:15 -0800
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On Sunday, March 22, 1998 10:30 PM, Kim Foster wrote:

>At 10:58 PM 3/22/98 -0800, Rook wrote:
>>Here's one for the list of unclear things. Define how much damage is
>>done from throwing or hitting with a blunt object in a clear manner.
>> If it is just Str, explain why a steel guirder (sp?) does the same
>>damage as a fist. :)
>
>Absolutely.. that has always bothered me. I've heard the "game"
balance
>argument but it seems thin...since any character can say pick up
something
>and swing it....


Unless the mass of the object has no effect upon the amount of damage
that it does, then bricks get a distinct bonus in this category. Thus,
it would tend to tip the balance in favor of bricks.

Not that I don't agree that there should be some bonus for such
objects, but superhero games where swinging/throwing heavier objects
gives a significant bonus tend to cause bricks to throw or swing large
numbers of cars around. An example is the fights in GURPS Supers
games. This doesn't fit the genre well.

Personally, I like the idea that heavy objects do more damage, but I'd
also rule that the maximum damage done by an object should be based
entirely upon the DEF, rather than the DEF+BODY, on the grounds that
the object's crumpling, fragmenting, etc., absorbs damage. Thus, a
brick would be stupid to throw a car, as the crumpling of the car
would absorb the damage he intended to do to the target. After all,
hitting a normal man with a large stack of Styrofoam cups probably
won't do a great deal of damage, no matter how heavy the stack is.
However, because of kinetic energy, I'd probably rule that the BODY
damage delivered to both the target _and_ the weapon counted towards
knockback. Thus, the man would be hurt by being forced to the ground
when the cups hit him.

This also fits in with the genre. In the story where Bruce Banner
committed mental suicide, and the now-mindless Hulk went on a rampage
through New York, the Hulk picked up the giant adamantium statue of
himself to throw it at Thor. Thor mentally referred to the statue as a
"weapon to kill a god with", OWTTE. OTOH, most of Thor's opponents
didn't throw cars, as this would be like throwing tinfoil structures
at normal people.

Filksinger

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Subject: Re: Logic Check (Re: Ambiguity List addition: Throwing Damage, Object Damage.)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:58:57 -0000
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From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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On 3/23/98 5:10 PM Brian Wong (rook@shell.infinex.com) Said:

>> > Here's one for the list of unclear things. Define how much damage is
>> > done from throwing or hitting with a blunt object in a clear manner.
>> > If it is just Str, explain why a steel guirder (sp?) does the same
>> > damage as a fist. :)
>>
>> Potentially less, actually. That is, if the girder has less Def
>> and Bod then the Str dice.
>>
> But what if that's not the case?
>
>Shouldn't using such an object add damage as it is essentially adding it's
>mass as well as acting like a lever on the attack? I know I'd much rather get
>punched by a bare fist over a baseball bat; if I had to choose. :)

We usually use a house rule that items used for hitting add their DEF or
BOD (whichever is greater) as dice in HA. If this is greater than the
dice you are going to do by STR alone, that it can only double your STR
damage. We go further by stating that if your STR damage alone is more
than 2x the HA bonus that you will get, then the item is destroyed by the
hit, although you do get the bonus for that hit.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 05:19:48 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Ambiguity List addition: Throwing Damage, Object Damage.
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At 10:58 PM 3/22/1998 -0800, Rook wrote:
>Here's one for the list of unclear things. Define how much damage is
>done from throwing or hitting with a blunt object in a clear manner.
> If it is just Str, explain why a steel guirder (sp?) does the same
>damage as a fist. :)

A related one: how much damage is done when something heavy (piano,
safe, auto, giant anvil) just falls on you?
---
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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 05:29:30 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
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At 07:22 PM 3/22/1998 -0800, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>> INCREASED STUN MULTIPLIER
>>
>> This Power Advantage increases the STUN Multiple of a Killing
>> Attack. ... Increased Stun Multiplier has no effect on attacks
>> other than Killing Attacks.
>>
>>Seems pretty plain to me. There is no other convenient way to describe
>>Killing Attacks which have a better chance to stun (such as a .45) than
>>to use this advantage. Other constructs (increased dice, then a
>>limitation that reduced BODY) seem clumsy by comparison. Use of this
>>advantage is flat-out explicitly prohibited for EBs.
>
>Not only that but, as a warning to GMs thinking it might not be SO bad...
>look what happens when you use hit locations with this advantage:
>
> 6D6 normal attack, averages 21 stun, with a hit location this
> ends up being x1 in most cases. But with +1 stun modifier, this
> doubles the stun damage done... before defenses... for a measly +1/2
>
>Fear the stun multiple with hit locations... avoid it like the plague for
>normal attacks.

I think you're looking at this wrongly.... the way ISM has been
suggested (and not originally by me, though I was the first in the current
discussion to bring it up) is that the above example would still roll 6d6,
but add +1 STUN per die. So the average roll of a 6d6 Normal attack with
+1 STUN would be 27.
Maybe if its name was changed to Increased Stun Factor?
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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 05:41:27 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
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At 10:25 PM 3/22/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>RAW> 1) The defense is a high level of a universal power, such as 18 INT or
>RAW> 20 total PD. I have also seen "making an INT roll" as the defense,
>RAW> which is philosophically similar.
>
>And just as bogus. They way NND is structured, how much someone paid for a
>a power that is applicable as a defense has no relevance. If the ammount
>of defense should have relevance then the advantage is AVLD, not NND.

OK, then... how do you build an AVLD attack that does full damage to
anyone with below a certain amount of defense, but no damage to anyone with
that amount?
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 05:47:36 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Master Ambiguity List
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At 10:00 PM 3/22/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> > > - Does damage carry over in multiform?
>> >
>> > A problem to very few. Most seem willing to allow this to be
>> > defined by SFX.
>>
>> Agreed. However perhaps that itself needs to be stated.
>
> Why? Why assume that those buying the book are stupid. Maybe a
>blanket statement that _all_ powers are SFX dependant subject to the GMs
>whim.

This isn't assuming that those buying the book are stupid. If this were
the problem, then certainly two-thirds (at least; perhaps all) of the
members of this list would be classified as stupid, because we keep
discussing things here that are "obvious."
What's being requested here is a clear statement as to whether damage
carries over from one Multiform to another, or not, or whether it depends
on SFX, because the matter is clearly *not* self-evident.

>> Can change environment let you affect objects in an environment (the
>> speedster trick),
>> or just the environment itself?
>
> Again, SFX dependant -- but a GM will make some calls based on
>cost balance.

And this is another case where such a statement should be made in the book.

>> Can Extra Dimensional Movement be used as long distance T-Port as
>> suggested in USM?
>
> Leave this one as a possibility with a stop sign. It could be
>unbalancing.

I happen to agree here.

>> There are several special effects which can FTL (or at least LightSpeed)
>> in atmosphere,
>> How can these be constructed if FTL in atms is illegal? Example,
>> travelling on an
>> electrical line.
>
> That's T-Port.

That's not clear, at least not in the rules. (If The Ultimate Speedster
comes out and spells this out, then that's different.)
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 05:48:33 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Master Ambiguity List
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At 11:00 PM 3/22/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> someone should figure out how many points using 5" flight and noncombat
>> multiples it would take to achieve lightspeed LOL
>
> Um, no multiples necessary. Just make SFX to turn to light at
>move up to 5". The actual movement is quite FTL.

Surely you're not saying that I could just buy 5" of flight in your
campaign, and be able to move at the speed of light just based on SFX?
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 05:55:06 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Throwing Damage Questions
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At 07:11 PM 3/22/1998 -0800, Rook wrote:
>How do you determine throwing damage exactly. Can someone give
>me a rundown of it with page numbers? Thank you.
>
>Let me give a few examples:
>Just for simplicities sake, lets assume a hit on all of these.
>
>Character A (Str 50)throws Character B (str 20) 16".

I'd treat this as though Character B had suffered 16" of Knockback.
(Once he's out of Character A's hands, there's not much difference that I
can see in what's going on with Character B.)

>Character A (Str 50)throws Character B (str 20) at a 16" velocity but
>hits a def 8 Body 5 wall after only 7" distance.
>
>Character A (Str 50)throws Character B (str 20) at a 16" velocity but
>hits Character C after only 7" distance.

Same as above.

>Character A (Str 50) throws a 400kg Motorcycle (Def 3 body 11) at
>Character B who is 7" away.
>
>Character A (Str 50) throws a 1600kg car (Def 3 body 14) at Character B
>who is 7" away.

On this one I don't know; I'd like to see others' rulings. Surely there
should be some bonus for the car over the motorcycle, but we don't want it
to do too much damage either.
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 06:08:25 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
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At 05:55 PM 3/22/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "D" == Dataweaver <traveler@io.com> writes:
>
>D> if "X amount of Flash Defense" neutralizes the power entirely, and "less
>D> than X amount of Flash Defense" has no effect on the power at all, it's
>D> NND, not AVLD.
>
>I've already addressed this *twice*. This is not how NND works. This is
>not how NND is described as working. This is not how any of the examples
>of NND describe it working.

NND works on defenses that either are there, or aren't.
A character either has X amount of Flash Defense, or he doesn't.
If I need to buy something that costs $5, then I need $5. If I have
only $4 in my pocket, then I don't have $5.
Similarly, if I need 5 Hearing Flash Defense to defend against an
attack, then I need 5 Hearing Flash Defense. If I have only 4 Hearing
Flash Defense, then I don't have 5 Hearing Flash Defense.

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 06:08:34 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
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At 06:08 PM 3/22/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>>>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes:
>
>RAW> Now, in order to convince me that "At least X points of N Power" is
>RAW> flat out prohibited, you will have to convince me of two propositions:
>
>"X points of N power" does not qualify as "reasonably common"; it is
>uncommon when "X" is greater than the minimum purchase requirements of the
>power.

That is why such applications of NND should have alternate defenses.
For instance, a poison dart might work as an NND where the defenses are 3
rPD, Life Support vs disease, or Immunity to the particular poison being used.

>"X points of N power" is unfair; who decides how much "X" should be? And
>why should different NND attacks with different values for "X" have the
>same advantage cost?

"X" is determined between the player and GM. And the higher the value
of "X," the more common the alternate defenses would have to be.
(BTW, *this* is what I call a coherent argument. I still disagree with
you, but this is worlds better than "yes it is/no it isn't" bouncing.) :-]
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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:05:45 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: VPP: Shapeshifting
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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My head is spinning with all the discussion about how much you can buy with
your VPP. The latest I've seen on the list is that your point pool is used
for the REAL cost of the powers, so you can actually have a lot more at
once than it looks like at first glance, by slapping limitations on
everything.

Anyway, I created a Shapeshifter this weekend with a VPP for my player to
use (I let him approve or disapprove it...trust me, it would have taken
many more hours to explain VPP to this player than to just do it myself).
We played our first session with this character, which generated a lot of
questions...we became pressed for time so I was somewhat liberal with what
I allowed, but I think I will probably "lay down the law" on this character
at the beginning of our next session. Please help me with following
questions:

* I quickly learned that this character has the potential to be an ungodly
speedster by slapping the whole pool into Running or Flight. Should we put
a limitation on this pool that says "only 20 points may be used for
Movment" or something similar?

* Would you allow Armor to be taken as part of this VPP? The player
explained it as hardening his skin, part of having control over his body.
It became aggravating because the player was constantly shifting the amount
of Armor he had (almost on a phase-by-phase basis), just like other
characters would shift their Combat Skill Levels back and forth from OCV to
DCV. Besides the aggravation factor, I think the "hardening skin" thing is
a little shaky for a shapeshifter. Also, it means this character could be
impervious to killing attacks as long as he knows they are coming...he
could jack the Armor up to incredible levels.

* I gave him a -1/2 limitation "Only shapeshifting effects", the purpose
of which was to outlaw mental powers, eye beams, that sort of thing. Does
this sound good, or is this limitation automatic (thus not worth a point
break) when you define the special effect of your VPP?

* Shapeshifting, Extra Limbs -- should these powers be bought outside of
the VPP, or inside? Is it okay to buy Extra Limbs and say "variable"
instead of picking a number of limbs? Maybe we should pick a maximum
number of extra limbs he can have at once, and let him vary below that max?

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:38:24 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Takedown maneuver
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Content-Disposition: inline
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mars.superlink.net id LAA03273

In our game this weekend, a 20 STR Martial Artist used Takedown to knock
over one of those hulking Mech Vipers (2 levels of Growth, etc). This
strikes me as a little odd...a normal person can knock over a big, heavy
robot? There doesn't seem to be a rule against it, but would you declare
that such a thing just isn't possible?

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Subject: HeroMaker registration
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 5-7
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:43:59 EST
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

I know this is a little off-topic, but I just cashed in a 20% discount
card at my local game store and bought a copy of HeroMaker. When I
pulled the plastic off, I found that someone forgot to put a registration
card in the package. Does anyone know if the e-mail address in the
manual is still correct? I'd like to register the program, especially if
there might be a 5th edition upgrade coming out sometime.

Leah

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:44:01 +0000
Subject: Re: Player-bought supplements
Priority: normal
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

> I think the answer to this is "stop being a wimp", but here goes
> anyway:
>

Well, if you want to put it that way, OK. Stop being a wimp. There,
feel better? :D

Seriously, tho, as Game Master, you have every right to decide for
yourself what optional rules you will and will not allow to be used
in YOUR game. Furthermore, I do not necessarily feel it is
inconsistent to allow the use of some optional rules from a
supplement, and not others. Allowing him, for example, to use the
Takaway Manuever from NH is fine. But if you don't like the optional
Acrobatics Rules, you are under NO obligation to allow it simply
because you've said OK to some of the NH martial manuevers.

Example: I'm playing a Mentalist in one campaign using some of the
suggestions from The Ultimate Mentalist. The GM has OK'd this, but
has made it clear that he reserves the option to disallow some things
if he feels they are unbalancing. He's allowing me to take ideas
from TUM and incorporate them into my character to see how they play
out--he does not own TUM, and what he knows of TUM is what I tell
him. But we understood from the beginning that he might decide to
disallow some things from TUM if they didn't fit his campaign
concept. This having been made clear from the beginning, my GM is
free from having to buy and read a sourcebook he would otherwise have
little use for, and I am free to experiement with optional rules as
long as I don't abuse the priviledge. It's working out rather
well--I have a character I'm happy to play, and he doesn't have
nightmares about GMing my character (at least, I HOPE not <grin>).

You need to sit down and explain it to your player like this: "Look,
I don't own NH, don't want to own it, and don't want to read yours.
I'm happy with the martial arts rules as they are written in the BBB.
If you want to introduce some optional rules from NH to make it
easier to give your character a cinematic feel, then you must discuss
these rules with me, in advance, and I will consider them on a case
by case basis. Accepting one optional rule does not mean I accept
the entire sourcebook by default. If you bring up an optional rule
during game play, the answer will be an automatic NO. I'm willing to
discuss options before and after the game, not during."

If your player wants to use an optional rule, make him TYPE it out on
a seperate sheet of paper when he discusses them with you. If you
feel you need to, look it up in HIS copy before the game starts, just
to make sure he's not pulling a fast one on you. Any optional rules
you allow should be condensed (TYPED) on a seperate sheet BY THE
PLAYER. If he wants to use optional rules, make him do a little work
to earn the priviledge. He must give you one copy for your records,
and can keep another for quick reference.

Now, I would not discourage your players from buying sourcebooks and
suggesting optional rules, backgrounds, or whatever from them. The
fact your player is willing to spend his own money on gaming material
shows an interest in developing the character. You're not bound to
make ANY changes in the way you run your games, but if players are
interested in exploring other systems, sourcebooks, or whatever, it's
to your own advantage to listen impartially--they may suggest ideas
that will improve your story telling, or help streamline the ways you
do things with game mechanics, thus improving the game for everyone.

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:55:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: VPP: Shapeshifting
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> My head is spinning with all the discussion about how much you can buy with
> your VPP. The latest I've seen on the list is that your point pool is used
> for the REAL cost of the powers, so you can actually have a lot more at
> once than it looks like at first glance, by slapping limitations on
> everything.

The point pool is used for both Real and Active point totals. No one
power can have exceed the Pool cost in Active Points, while the Real cost
of all the powers currently in the pool cannot exceed the Pool cost,
either.

> * I quickly learned that this character has the potential to be an ungodly
> speedster by slapping the whole pool into Running or Flight. Should we put
> a limitation on this pool that says "only 20 points may be used for
> Movment" or something similar?

Yes, it would be valid tomake a limiation that certain powers are subject
to certain Active Points limits as a way of 'reality checking' the
character.

> * Would you allow Armor to be taken as part of this VPP? The player
> explained it as hardening his skin, part of having control over his body.
> It became aggravating because the player was constantly shifting the amount
> of Armor he had (almost on a phase-by-phase basis), just like other
> characters would shift their Combat Skill Levels back and forth from OCV to
> DCV. Besides the aggravation factor, I think the "hardening skin" thing is
> a little shaky for a shapeshifter. Also, it means this character could be
> impervious to killing attacks as long as he knows they are coming...he
> could jack the Armor up to incredible levels.

I see no problem with Armor as an SFX of a shapeshifter. Now, if the
character is shifitng the powers constantly, I presume you've bought this
VPP as a 'cosmic' power pool (ie. No Time, No Skill Roll)? You might want
to lower the actual Pool cost to counter-balance this extreme usefulness
of the pool. Now, as to the Armor level gettingout of hand, see what I
said about movement powers.

> * I gave him a -1/2 limitation "Only shapeshifting effects", the purpose
> of which was to outlaw mental powers, eye beams, that sort of thing. Does
> this sound good, or is this limitation automatic (thus not worth a point
> break) when you define the special effect of your VPP?

The -1/2 lim for a limited set of SFX is valid as defined by the BBB.
Certain comic shapeshifters have the ability to duplicate *anything* their
new form can do (I think Chameleon Boy from Legion is a good example).
So, limiting the exact extent of the shapeshifter's powers sound fine to
me.

> * Shapeshifting, Extra Limbs -- should these powers be bought outside of
> the VPP, or inside? Is it okay to buy Extra Limbs and say "variable"
> instead of picking a number of limbs? Maybe we should pick a maximum
> number of extra limbs he can have at once, and let him vary below that max?

Extra Limbs are variable to begin with. You select the number of limbs
when you buy the power. As the GM, I recommend you decide how many limbs
the character can have at once and stick with that. Buying Extra Limbs in
the VPP is fine, since Extra Limbs *is* a shapeshifitng effect.

Remember that many other powers (like AOE strikes or an autofire punch)
can have the SFX of multiple limbs.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:56:53 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: FTL in Atmosphere (Re: Master Ambiguity List)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org


> So given that 5" should be able to let me move at lightspeed with no
> noncombat multiples, what speed score do I need?
> After all, if I can move at light speed, I should be able to
> cover the distance of 12 light seconds per 12 second turn. At only 5"
> movement, that's going to take a wee bit of speed. :)

1 Spd should be fine. That's the minimum to actually move in
Hero. You won't get light speed over long distances, but SFX-wise your
movement can be LS just fine -- without having to worry about accel/decel.
Of course, I think T-Port would work best as it would avoid barrier
problems -- you're light after all.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:57:46 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Ambiguity List addition: Throwing Damage, Object Damage.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org


> Here's one for the list of unclear things. Define how much damage is
> done from throwing or hitting with a blunt object in a clear manner.
> If it is just Str, explain why a steel guirder (sp?) does the same
> damage as a fist. :)

Potentially less, actually. That is, if the girder has less Def
and Bod then the Str dice.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:58:15 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Hero System Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Takedown maneuver
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> In our game this weekend, a 20 STR Martial Artist used Takedown to knock
> over one of those hulking Mech Vipers (2 levels of Growth, etc). This
> strikes me as a little odd...a normal person can knock over a big, heavy
> robot? There doesn't seem to be a rule against it, but would you declare
> that such a thing just isn't possible?

Ninja Hero (and UMA) present the rule that once can only perfrom a
'target falls' maneuver on any target that weighs less than the
character's STR+10 lift capacity. So, you 20 STR MA can Takedown any
target that weighs less than a 30 STR can lift.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:58:20 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified)
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: VPP: Shapeshifting
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>* I quickly learned that this character has the potential to be an ungodly
>speedster by slapping the whole pool into Running or Flight. Should we put
>a limitation on this pool that says "only 20 points may be used for
>Movment" or something similar?

Well, depending on the Shapeshift itself, it's simple enough to put a
"powers limited to what is reasonable to the form" limitation on the VPP.
For example, an animal shapeshifter (any terrestrial animal) would be
limited to the best ground speed of a Cheetah, and best airspeed of a hawk.

>* Would you allow Armor to be taken as part of this VPP? The player
>explained it as hardening his skin, part of having control over his body.
>It became aggravating because the player was constantly shifting the amount
>of Armor he had (almost on a phase-by-phase basis),

How about applying "Must Shapeshift to Change VPP (-1/4)" as a limitation on
the VPP? Shapeshifting takes a 1/2 phase, so the player will be a lot less
willing to use it.

>* I gave him a -1/2 limitation "Only shapeshifting effects", the purpose
>of which was to outlaw mental powers, eye beams, that sort of thing. Does
>this sound good, or is this limitation automatic (thus not worth a point
>break) when you define the special effect of your VPP?

It's a 'limited powers' limitation, though for an 'any form' shapeshifter,
I'd call it a -1/4 limitation.

>* Shapeshifting, Extra Limbs -- should these powers be bought outside of
>the VPP, or inside?

Outside. Let him buy Extra Limbs, Variable SFX (any; +1/2), Linked to
Shapeshift (-1/2)

Anyway, it would be best if you showed us the exact construct - does it have
the "no time to change powers" and "no skill roll to change powers" advantages?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Now, we get bigger guns."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins and Ron Prins
jprins@interhop.net

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Villain Secret IDs)
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-5,8-9,11-13
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:06:34 EST
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>> A small point, but they take footprints of small children
(heel-prints, actually).
>
> Are you sure? I remember being fingerprinted for a
>safety-type thing around age 6-8.

They take footprints of newborns. Even if you could get a couple-hours
old kid to keep his fingers spread, I'd hate to try reading a fingerprint
that small. By 6-8 years, that's not a problem.

Hmm, I wonder how a forensics team would dust for prints left by a
character with several levels in shrinking ....

Leah

_____________________________________________________________________
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Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: HeroMaker registration
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:26:18 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>
> I know this is a little off-topic, but I just cashed in a 20% discount
> card at my local game store and bought a copy of HeroMaker. When I
> pulled the plastic off, I found that someone forgot to put a registration
> card in the package. Does anyone know if the e-mail address in the
> manual is still correct? I'd like to register the program, especially if
> there might be a 5th edition upgrade coming out sometime.
>
I wouldn't worry about that.
Heromaker is a dead line. It's being replaced entirely by Creation Workshop.
As soon as they finish the Hero system version of Creation Workshop, Heromaker
is going into retirement.
Currently Creation Workshop is available in Fuzion format only. The
holdup on the Hero version is a program that will convert all your old
Heromaker files into Creation Workshop files. Once out, Creation WOrkshop
will have routines to auto convert between Fuzion, Hero, and plans for
conversions through several other RPG's.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:31:20 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: VPP: Shapeshifting
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

At 10:05 AM 3/23/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>* I quickly learned that this character has the potential to be an ungodly
>speedster by slapping the whole pool into Running or Flight. Should we put
>a limitation on this pool that says "only 20 points may be used for
>Movment" or something similar?

If you have a Limitation in the VPP that Powers must represent something
that can be achieved through Shapeshifting, then the player must be able to
come up with a reasonable shape that could move that fast.

>* Would you allow Armor to be taken as part of this VPP? The player
>explained it as hardening his skin, part of having control over his body.
>It became aggravating because the player was constantly shifting the amount
>of Armor he had (almost on a phase-by-phase basis), just like other
>characters would shift their Combat Skill Levels back and forth from OCV to
>DCV. Besides the aggravation factor, I think the "hardening skin" thing is
>a little shaky for a shapeshifter. Also, it means this character could be
>impervious to killing attacks as long as he knows they are coming...he
>could jack the Armor up to incredible levels.

It depends on the SFX of the shapeshifting. An Odo-type shapeshifter
(with a limited ability to change composition) would have an easier time of
this than one whose shapeshifting was just, well, shifting shape.

>* I gave him a -1/2 limitation "Only shapeshifting effects", the purpose
>of which was to outlaw mental powers, eye beams, that sort of thing. Does
>this sound good, or is this limitation automatic (thus not worth a point
>break) when you define the special effect of your VPP?

No, I think this is about right.

>* Shapeshifting, Extra Limbs -- should these powers be bought outside of
>the VPP, or inside? Is it okay to buy Extra Limbs and say "variable"
>instead of picking a number of limbs? Maybe we should pick a maximum
>number of extra limbs he can have at once, and let him vary below that max?

Shapeshifting outside; Extra Limbs inside. And yes, I'd allow any
number of Limbs under the current rules for Extra Limbs.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:44:00 -0500
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@Concentric.net>
Subject: Re: VPP: Shapeshifting
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>* I quickly learned that this character has the potential to be an ungodly
>speedster by slapping the whole pool into Running or Flight. Should we put
>a limitation on this pool that says "only 20 points may be used for
>Movment" or something similar?

The way we handle VPPs is to have the character write up a stock
list of powers that he will use with the VPP, and that list must
be approved by the GM. Any power in the list that would harm the
game balance would be vetoed, just as it would if it were not in
the power pool.



>* Would you allow Armor to be taken as part of this VPP? The player
>explained it as hardening his skin, part of having control over his body.

I had a shapeshifting character with this power. My rationale
was that most of his powers come from the ability to throw his
density around to different points on his body -- the armor
was just a variation on that. However, he pretty much only
ever used one setting on it, and it wasn't that much.


====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Logic Check (Re: Ambiguity List addition: Throwing Damage, Object Damage.)
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:11:06 -0800 (PST)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>
>
> > Here's one for the list of unclear things. Define how much damage is
> > done from throwing or hitting with a blunt object in a clear manner.
> > If it is just Str, explain why a steel guirder (sp?) does the same
> > damage as a fist. :)
>
> Potentially less, actually. That is, if the girder has less Def
> and Bod then the Str dice.
>
But what if that's not the case?

Shouldn't using such an object add damage as it is essentially adding it's
mass as well as acting like a lever on the attack? I know I'd much rather get
punched by a bare fist over a baseball bat; if I had to choose. :)

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: VPP: Shapeshifting
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:13:44 -0800 (PST)
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>
> Anyway, it would be best if you showed us the exact construct - does it have

Yeah. We've been at this too long as it is. Just forward the character
sheet to the list, in text format of course. Let's get this over with.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 98 18:46:52
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 11:53:14 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:

>"qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> "champ-l@omg.org" wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:57:01 -0500, Bill Svitavsky wrote:
>>
>> >At 09:17 PM 3/18/98, \"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote:
>> >>On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:15:02 +0000, Theala Sildorian wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>Now the rules states that you can't have both Secret ID and Public
>> >>>ID.
>> >>
>> >>Really? In one of the AC mags it gives ideas for using both.
>> >
>> >One thing implied by the rules, but as far as I recall never explicitly
>> >mentioned, is the assumption that the heroic identity will probably be
>> >"public" - that is, famous.
>> >
>> Agreed - to me, having both would be restricted to the Scarlet
>> Pimpernel or 'missing heir to throne' types, but in the Superhero
>> world, how about an opera diva who is also a Superheroine? Or just
>> suppose that Greg Norman was also a Superhero? Or Margaret Thatcher
>> really was The Iron Maiden? In all cases the non-hero id justifies the
>> PI disad, and the hero id justifies the SI disad.
>>
>
>It seems to me that people are confusing the ID disads with the
>Reputation disads. They are *very* different things.
>
>A Secret ID means that the character has a double life, and that few know
>that Bruce Wayne and the Batman are one and the same. By hypothesis, to
>maintain his position, Batman must maintain the secret, and this makes
>getting captured and unmasked a real fear.
>
>A public ID means that it is a matter of public record that Ben Grimm is
>the Thing. He can't take off his costume and get away from the
>paparazzi, meddlesome government agents or hide from his enemies. His
>DNPCs are constantly at risk. He is constantly being approached to right
>petty wrongs, frequently by people whose motives are not pure.
>
>Both of these are divorced from Reputation: the question of how famous
>either or both IDs are. By default, Reputation covers the Hero ID only,
>but a second Reputation may cover the Secret ID. Thus, the famous Opera
>Diva who is secretly Descant the Superheroine would have:
>
>15 Secret ID: Beverly Hills, famous opera singer
>5 Reputation 8-: Slightly Famous Superheroine; known CAK, etc.
>10 Reputation 8-/14- among classical music buffs: Opera Diva
>10 Rival, professional and Romantic: Jane Southland, Diva
>
>IMHO this is precisely correct, not a fudge, and requires no change to
>the existing rules.

I'm not sure that I go along with that: Public Id is for better or for
worse (everyone can easily find out who they are), whereas Reputation
is one or the other (everyone knows X about them).

To take Mrs Thatcher/Iron Maiden as an example, she would have Public
ID: Prime Minister of GB, and would have Reputation: Stateswoman, and
she might have Secret ID: Iron Maiden and (as Iron Maiden) Reputation:
Honourable.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "\"qts\" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
\"Tim R. Gilberg\"" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 98 18:53:34
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: RE: Presence Attacks
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:25:49 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

>
>> >or the wonderful Dragon swooping down with a horrendous roar and breathing
>> >fire in floods for a little presence attack
>>
>> Err.. 'not so little'. Remember the scene in Dragonslayer where
>> Vermithrax torches the village and everyone runs? He's achieving PRE+30
>> (ie getting at least 40 on his dice), and he's only getting +4d6.
>
> +4d6? That's low. Violent action, exhibiting powers,
>mega-extreme reputation.

He doesn't need much of a bonus. If you look at the film, you'll notice
he isn't eating people, just burning their houses.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:34:56 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Player-bought supplements
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Content-Disposition: inline
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To: champ-l@omg.org
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mars.superlink.net id OAA26746

I think the answer to this is "stop being a wimp", but here goes anyway:

One of my players owns Ninja Hero...I don't have it and am not really
interested in getting it, since I'm not interested in martial arts to that
level of detail. Well, this player routinely uses maneuvers from it, even
though I'm not familiar with them. This has been irritating, but I've let
it slide. Well, in our last session, he suddenly decided to tell me about
some Acrobatics rule that is in NH but not the BBB...I told him he couldn't
use it, since I don't want to use rules that I haven't had a chance to look
over. Obviously, one problem is that I'm being inconsistent...I allowed
some rules from NH but not others. The second "problem" is that I don't
have a whole lot of interest in sitting down and reading NH all the way
through, just so this player can take advantage of the nifty things
therein.

What would you do? Completely outlaw NH and make him convert his special
maneuvers into those in the BBB? Continue to use NH on a rule-by-rule
basis, without knowing those rules in advance? Sit down and read the darn
book so that the player can get his money's worth out of it?

I've had this same problem with other games (all those "Complete <class>"
books from That Other Game)... My instinct says to say "No, we're not
using it, you should have checked before you wasted your money on that
book", but its harder to do that since some of the book is already being
used.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 98 19:46:34
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:01:32 EST, GoldRushG wrote:

><< how about a well-known and prominent superheroine with two completely
>separate Secret Identities, of whom one is a famous model and the other a
>prominent off-Broadway actress? >>
>
> Why would a woman who is a famous model and a famous actress *not* want her
>fame from each career to benefit the other? That seems kind of silly, IMO.
>Beingt "Sally Stronglegs" 3 nights a week and "Heather Headstrong" 4 nights a
>week, with fans of niether knowing about the other "identity" seems a bit
>limiting.

Perchance a vulnerability when not kitted up as a Superhero? EG Tony
Stark is *much* more vulnerable than Iron Man. Or, in the 1920s, Lord
Smithers, major land-owner, politician (Public ID) is really Prince
Igor Romanov, heir to the throne of Russia...

qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:01:32 EST
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

<< how about a well-known and prominent superheroine with two completely
separate Secret Identities, of whom one is a famous model and the other a
prominent off-Broadway actress? >>

Why would a woman who is a famous model and a famous actress *not* want her
fame from each career to benefit the other? That seems kind of silly, IMO.
Beingt "Sally Stronglegs" 3 nights a week and "Heather Headstrong" 4 nights a
week, with fans of niether knowing about the other "identity" seems a bit
limiting.

And maintaining two appearances would need to be considered, too.

Further, if she's famous, then I think Secret Id is less applicable than,
say, Public ID.

Mark @ GRG

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Doc Weird <DocWeird@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:01:56 EST
Subject: Re: Player-bought supplements
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

In a message dated 98-03-23 14:46:24 EST, DBStallard@compuserve.com writes:

<< What would you do? Completely outlaw NH and make him convert his special
maneuvers into those in the BBB? Continue to use NH on a rule-by-rule
basis, without knowing those rules in advance? Sit down and read the darn
book so that the player can get his money's worth out of it?

I've had this same problem with other games (all those "Complete <class>"
books from That Other Game)... My instinct says to say "No, we're not
using it, you should have checked before you wasted your money on that
book", but its harder to do that since some of the book is already being
used.
>>


Having the same problem with other suppliments, I have come to several
ideas on this matter.......

1) In the case of Ninja Hero, Copy and use just the manouvres chart on pg
11

2) tell him that you will approve things only on a power-by-power basis
and look them up after he shows you (before the game of course)

3) Tell him NO

4) make him give you a written detail of the ruling that he will be
using in quick reference form (this is normally the best--most players when
pushed to do any REAL GM type work will balk of they would be GM's too)
again, only before the games

5) as you mentioned--read the book and integrate only what is acceptable
to YOU


Doc

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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 98 20:02:22
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: Presence Attacks
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:35:34 -0800 (PST), Anthony Jackson wrote:

>"qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> "Tim R. Gilberg" writes:
>> On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:25:49 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> >> Err.. 'not so little'. Remember the scene in Dragonslayer where
>> >> Vermithrax torches the village and everyone runs? He's achieving PRE+30
>> >> (ie getting at least 40 on his dice), and he's only getting +4d6.
>> >
>> > +4d6? That's low. Violent action, exhibiting powers,
>> >mega-extreme reputation.
>>
>> He doesn't need much of a bonus. If you look at the film, you'll notice
>> he isn't eating people, just burning their houses.
>
>Bear in mind that people can run away for other reasons than a successful
>presence attack ;). Sure, you need PRE+30 to get them to flee in utter
>unreasoning terror, but you only need +10 for them to think seriously about
>your suggestion (that they run away).

Granted - that's one reason why I said he didn't need much of a bonus.

qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:03:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Player-bought supplements
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

David Stallard writes:
> I think the answer to this is "stop being a wimp", but here goes anyway:
>
> One of my players owns Ninja Hero...I don't have it and am not really
> interested in getting it<zapppp>
>
> What would you do? Completely outlaw NH and make him convert his special
> maneuvers into those in the BBB? Continue to use NH on a rule-by-rule
> basis, without knowing those rules in advance? Sit down and read the darn
> book so that the player can get his money's worth out of it?

This depends a lot on your preferences. Personally, I like NH, but allowing
stuff in w/o actually reading the book is probably a bad idea, there's a couple
of things which should be read in context. In general, I'd probably say 'show
me the rule', read the rule (as it is stated in the book, not as it is
paraphrased by the player) and decide if I liked it or not. If I didn't like
the sound of the rule offhand, or didn't feel like reading the rule, I'd
probably just say that I'm not using that rule.
>
> I've had this same problem with other games (all those "Complete <class>"
> books from That Other Game)... My instinct says to say "No, we're not
> using it, you should have checked before you wasted your money on that
> book", but its harder to do that since some of the book is already being
> used.

Offhand, the additional manuevers in NH really aren't a big deal, they're very
similar to the ones in the BBB, there's just more of them, and they generally
aren't particularly unbalanced (if some manuever looks particularly annoying,
just say no). The other rules are more complicated; you won't lose anything
important by ignoring them.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:19:57 EST
Subject: Re: Player-bought supplements
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org


In a message dated 3/23/98 11:46:21 AM, DBStallard@compuserve.com wrote:

>What would you do? Completely outlaw NH and make him convert his special
>
>maneuvers into those in the BBB? Continue to use NH on a rule-by-rule
>
>basis, without knowing those rules in advance? Sit down and read the darn
>
>book so that the player can get his money's worth out of it?
>

Well, the publisher's answer is of course to buy the book from us. :) We have
some copies left...

-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games

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X-Authentication-Warning: snowy.owlnet.rice.edu: chip owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:27:34 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Player-bought supplements
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> What would you do? Completely outlaw NH and make him convert his special
> maneuvers into those in the BBB? Continue to use NH on a rule-by-rule
> basis, without knowing those rules in advance? Sit down and read the darn
> book so that the player can get his money's worth out of it?
>
> I've had this same problem with other games (all those "Complete <class>"
> books from That Other Game)... My instinct says to say "No, we're not
> using it, you should have checked before you wasted your money on that
> book", but its harder to do that since some of the book is already being
> used.

Stop being a wimp. Make a decision about these books, and stick to it.
This is really more a question about the personality interaction between
you and this player than a question about what to do, for which the answer
is whatever you want.

Here's what I would do. Say that the BBB is the law. Anything which had
been allowed before from other books is okay as it falls under the "house
rules" of the campaign. Anything else is not allowed, although players are
allowed to petition that something be added as a house rule. Make clear
that you have the following criteria for new house rules:

1) They must add something significant to the gaming experience, and not
be something that simply adds needless complexity.

2) They should not require that the GM and/or other players familiarize
themselves with lots of specail cases and exceptions, and should not slow
down play, and the rule should be simple enough that it does not require
reference to a separate book.

3) If the rule introduces a new mechanic, the player should practice it
and write how it works on his character sheet and on the GM's copy of the
character sheet.

4) The best house rule submissions (a) fill gaps that the BBB did not
address or addressed ambiguously, but which you wish to allow in your
campaign; or (b) make something that the player wants to do more
straightforward, simplifying play without destroying play balance; (c) are
not simply a way to save points or increase the effects of something that
is valid in the BBB; (d) does not violate the feel of the genre or world
of the GM; and (e) to stress again, facilitate rather than hinder smooth
and enjoyable gameplay.

5) Don't forget that rules changes are almost always universal. They
affect everybody--normals, supers, PCs, NPCs, heroes, villains, aliens...
everyone. Players should remember this and think about it before proposing
new house rules. (Often, players forget that the axe swings both ways,
thinking that they are the sole benefactors of a house rule that allows
them to buy some nifty new maneuver, etc. As an example--a player in a
campaign I was in fought long and hard to win a "joint-breaking" maneuver
out of the UMA. Later, his hunted broke 2 of his limbs using a similar
maneuver!) GMs should remember this before accepting new house rules, as
well, and be willing to use and apply the rule universally as well.

If your players can find something in these books that they think meet
these criteria, then you should be willing to hear about it. This allows
you to use the best of what's in these books without getting piled under
by other rules you're not prepared for. By stating your criteria in
advance you're much better equipped to deal with agressive or whiny
players by simply pointing out what criteria you think the proposal
violates.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:27:49 -0800
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net>
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Player-bought supplements
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org



David Stallard wrote:

> What would you do? Completely outlaw NH and make him convert his special
> maneuvers into those in the BBB? Continue to use NH on a rule-by-rule
> basis, without knowing those rules in advance? Sit down and read the darn
> book so that the player can get his money's worth out of it?

I have a simple ruling I made in all of the games I run that solves the
problem quite efficiently: If the GM does not own it, the players may use
NOTHING from it.

This ruling came from when a player appeared at one of my games carrying a
brand new copy of The Ultimate Mentalist. Prior to that, I never encountered
the problem. And I am glad I did make that ruling. Because Ultimate Mentalist
is a bomb waiting to go off in the hands of abusive player. As is any majoy
supplement with new optional rules. Otherwise, the GM can lose control very
quickly.

As a GM and a person, you are not obligated to own every supplement that
every one of your players own. Trying to do that is pretty ludicrous.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:35:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Presence Attacks
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

"qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> "Tim R. Gilberg" writes:
> On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:25:49 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> >> Err.. 'not so little'. Remember the scene in Dragonslayer where
> >> Vermithrax torches the village and everyone runs? He's achieving PRE+30
> >> (ie getting at least 40 on his dice), and he's only getting +4d6.
> >
> > +4d6? That's low. Violent action, exhibiting powers,
> >mega-extreme reputation.
>
> He doesn't need much of a bonus. If you look at the film, you'll notice
> he isn't eating people, just burning their houses.

Bear in mind that people can run away for other reasons than a successful
presence attack ;). Sure, you need PRE+30 to get them to flee in utter
unreasoning terror, but you only need +10 for them to think seriously about
your suggestion (that they run away).

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Subject: Re: Player-bought supplements
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:36:05 -0500 (EST)
From: "Mike O'Connor" <mjo@dojo.mi.org>
Reply-To: "Mike O'Connor" <mjo@dojo.mi.org>
X-Organization: :noitazinagrO-X
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

It's not a matter of being a wimp -- approach the matter openly and
honestly. Say "I made a mistake in allowing this into the game. I
am not sure how I feel about all these Ultimate books" and work out
with your players as to how you want to deal with it.

For additional rules hell, suggest a Rolemaster campaign. ;)

:I think the answer to this is "stop being a wimp", but here goes anyway:
:
:One of my players owns Ninja Hero...I don't have it and am not really
:interested in getting it, since I'm not interested in martial arts to tha=
:t
:level of detail. Well, this player routinely uses maneuvers from it, eve=
:n
:though I'm not familiar with them. This has been irritating, but I've le=
:t
:it slide. Well, in our last session, he suddenly decided to tell me abou=
:t
:some Acrobatics rule that is in NH but not the BBB...I told him he couldn=
:'t
:use it, since I don't want to use rules that I haven't had a chance to lo=
:ok
:over. Obviously, one problem is that I'm being inconsistent...I allowed
:some rules from NH but not others. The second "problem" is that I don't
:have a whole lot of interest in sitting down and reading NH all the way
:through, just so this player can take advantage of the nifty things
:therein.
:
:What would you do? Completely outlaw NH and make him convert his special=
:
:maneuvers into those in the BBB? Continue to use NH on a rule-by-rule
:basis, without knowing those rules in advance? Sit down and read the dar=
:n
:book so that the player can get his money's worth out of it?
:
:I've had this same problem with other games (all those "Complete <class>"=
:
:books from That Other Game)... My instinct says to say "No, we're not
:using it, you should have checked before you wasted your money on that
:book", but its harder to do that since some of the book is already being
:used.



--
Michael J. O'Connor | WWW: http://dojo.mi.org/~mjo/ | Email: mjo@dojo.mi.org
InterNIC WHOIS: MJO | (has my PGP & Geek Code info) | Phone: +1 248-848-4481
=--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--=
"Life is what happens to you while you are busy making other plans." -Lennon

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From: "\"John Desmarais\" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
\"Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin\"" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 98 21:07:59
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: New server?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 18:55:18 -0600, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:

>I wonder why it is that since the switch to the new server (if that's what
>caused the new Welcome message to be generated), some of the messages
>coming from the list...notably those posted by Rat, but not only his...are
>no longer being filtered into the Hero box of my email? These are not
>off-list personal responses to me, in fact mainly they follow threads I've
>ignored.
>
>Anyone else experienced this in the past day or two?
>
>Damon

Rat has been posting through the new server instead of the old one. My guess if that
you are filtering based on source of the message (champ-l@omg.org) which, in Rat's
case (and I thik Rook's) is now champ-l@sysabend.org.

-=>John D.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Life support as defense
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 23 Mar 1998 16:09:32 -0500
Lines: 23
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

TRG> Why uncommon? Perhaps the purchase at the higher amount is common
TRG> in a certain (or many) campaign(s).

Then you have created an in-house ruling.

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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 23 Mar 1998 16:13:43 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:

BG> OK, then... how do you build an AVLD attack that does full damage to
BG> anyone with below a certain amount of defense, but no damage to anyone
BG> with that amount?

*WHY* does the power in question work this way? Describe the effects of
the power without using gamae mechanics and I will give you a writeup using
game mechanics.

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\ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.

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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:13:56 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Player-bought supplements
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, Mike O'Connor wrote:

> It's not a matter of being a wimp -- approach the matter openly and
> honestly. Say "I made a mistake in allowing this into the game. I
> am not sure how I feel about all these Ultimate books" and work out
> with your players as to how you want to deal with it.

Openly and honestly?

Admitting you made a mistake?

Work WITH your players?!

What planet did you role-play on?

Infidel! That IS being a wimp! This is WAR! Show no mercy!

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Ambiguity List addition: Throwing Damage, Object Damage.
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:

BG> A related one: how much damage is done when something heavy (piano,
BG> safe, auto, giant anvil) just falls on you?

As much as the piano, safe, auto, or giant anvil takes due to falling
velocity when it hits the ground, probably with the same max DCs = DEF +
BODY.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Ambiguity List addition: Throwing Damage, Object Damage.
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>>>>> "R" == Rook <rook@infinex.com> writes:

R> If it is just Str, explain why a steel guirder (sp?) does the same
R> damage as a fist. :)

The girder does not do more damage, per se. And as Tim pointed out, it
could actually do less. What it gives you is a small Area of Effect Cone
or Circle.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Takedown maneuver
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>>>>> "DS" == David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> writes:

DS> In our game this weekend, a 20 STR Martial Artist used Takedown to knock
DS> over one of those hulking Mech Vipers (2 levels of Growth, etc). This
DS> strikes me as a little odd...a normal person can knock over a big, heavy
DS> robot? There doesn't seem to be a rule against it, but would you declare
DS> that such a thing just isn't possible?

If your pushed strength would be sufficient to lift it, your unpushed
strength should be sufficient to move it. And if you can move it you can
knock it down.

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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 13:36:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Takedown maneuver
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

Stainless Steel Rat writes:

> If your pushed strength would be sufficient to lift it, your unpushed
> strength should be sufficient to move it. And if you can move it you can
> knock it down.

The rule about 'your pushed strength needs to be enough to lift it' might be
what he was looking for ;) IIRC that isn't in the BBB.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:46:11 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Player-bought supplements
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Content-Disposition: inline
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X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by mars.superlink.net id RAA16245

Message text written by Darien Phoenix Lynx
>5) Don't forget that rules changes are almost always universal. They
affect everybody--normals, supers, PCs, NPCs, heroes, villains, aliens...
everyone. Players should remember this and think about it before proposing
new house rules. (Often, players forget that the axe swings both ways,
thinking that they are the sole benefactors of a house rule that allows
them to buy some nifty new maneuver, etc. As an example--a player in a
campaign I was in fought long and hard to win a "joint-breaking" maneuver
out of the UMA. Later, his hunted broke 2 of his limbs using a similar
maneuver!) GMs should remember this before accepting new house rules, as
well, and be willing to use and apply the rule universally as well.<

This was one of my concerns that I didn't mention, and (so far) you're the
only one who has touched on it. Allowing one player to use an "Ultimate"
book means he has an unfair advantage over the other PCs and over all the
villains, who don't have access to that book (to my knowledge, published
NPCs do not use rules from the "Ultimate" books unless they themselves are
published in that "Ultimate" book). In order to be fair, I would need an
"Ultimate" book for every common character type, or at least for each
member of the PC group if I was willing to put the villains at a slight
disadvantage. I started to get more comfortable with using NH when I
considered the idea of creating some villains which use those NH rules
that, so far, have been exclusive property of this particular PC.

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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:04:05 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified)
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Player-bought supplements
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> I have a simple ruling I made in all of the games I run that solves the
>problem quite efficiently: If the GM does not own it, the players may use
>NOTHING from it.

Heh heh! What a great, sinister plot to get the players to buy you game
suppliments!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Now, we get bigger guns."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins and Ron Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:11:39 -0800
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net&>
Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

At 04:13 PM 3/23/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>
>BG> OK, then... how do you build an AVLD attack that does full damage to
>BG> anyone with below a certain amount of defense, but no damage to anyone
>BG> with that amount?
>
>*WHY* does the power in question work this way? Describe the effects of
>the power without using gamae mechanics and I will give you a writeup using
>game mechanics.
>
One has already been given several times -- a dart which can penetrate
limited armor, delivering the full dose of a drug, but which cannot
penetrate thicker armor, giving no dose of the drug.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:35:03 -0600
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Re: Takedown maneuver
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David Stallard wrote:
>
> In our game this weekend, a 20 STR Martial Artist used Takedown to knock
> over one of those hulking Mech Vipers (2 levels of Growth, etc). This
> strikes me as a little odd...a normal person can knock over a big, heavy
> robot? There doesn't seem to be a rule against it, but would you declare
> that such a thing just isn't possible?


I believe the rule is - in order to do a takedown/throw type maneuver,
the martial artist must be strong enough to pick up the victim with his
pushed strength. So, if a 30 strength was enough to pick up he robot,
then he can perform a takedown on it. if not, then he cant.


Todd

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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:44:06 -0800
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net>
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Player-bought supplements
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John and Ron Prins wrote:

> Heh heh! What a great, sinister plot to get the players to buy you game
> suppliments!

LOL!


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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:54:55 -0800
From: Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Re: Object Damage.
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At 05:19 AM 3/23/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 10:58 PM 3/22/1998 -0800, Rook wrote:
>>Here's one for the list of unclear things. Define how much damage is
>>done from throwing or hitting with a blunt object in a clear manner.
>> If it is just Str, explain why a steel guirder (sp?) does the same
>>damage as a fist. :)
>
> A related one: how much damage is done when something heavy (piano,
>safe, auto, giant anvil) just falls on you?

I would imagine it would do DEF+BOD in D6 up to the velocity in Inches it
is moving. This is just like being knocked back into a wall...you take the
DEF+BOD of the wall, or your velocity in inches as damage. Depending on
the situation, I might rule as a GM to add or subtract dice depending on
the kind of surface the unlucky victim is presently standing on. For
instance, if our hero is perched on a flagpole sticking out from the side
of a building, when he gets whacked from above by a falling piano, I'd rule
that he take less damage because the pole would break away, and they'd all
be falling together. Now, when the hero hits the ground, if is being
sandwiched between the piano and the asphalt, well, that might merit some
extra dice because he would "B-Flat" MAJOR.

(sorry couldn't resist)

Jim

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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:56:53 -0800
From: Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Re: FTL using flight
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At 09:02 PM 3/22/98 -0800, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>Ran some numbers, looks like 5" with 24 extra noncombat multiples will do
>it, but have fun turning LOL
>

And the friction of the atmosphere would kinda burn, too...


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:58:07 -0600
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Re: VPP: Shapeshifting
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On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote:

> * Would you allow Armor to be taken as part of this VPP? The player
> explained it as hardening his skin, part of having control over his body.
> It became aggravating because the player was constantly shifting the amount
> of Armor he had (almost on a phase-by-phase basis), just like other
> characters would shift their Combat Skill Levels back and forth from OCV to
> DCV. Besides the aggravation factor, I think the "hardening skin" thing is
> a little shaky for a shapeshifter. Also, it means this character could be
> impervious to killing attacks as long as he knows they are coming...he
> could jack the Armor up to incredible levels.


It sounds like there is one very important thing you are missing - he
can only allocate his VPP points ONCE - at the beginning of each one of
his phases! If he allocates his points to movement or an attack power,
he can't then later change them to armor because he sees an attack
coming - it's like a multipower. He can only use the points once per
phase.

But then, I'm guessing that this is what he is doing, based on your
description, so I could be completely off base.


Todd

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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:58:47 -0800
From: Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Re: FTL using flight
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At 12:42 AM 3/23/98 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:
>Oh, and it takes several months to get to velocity:
>7,200,000 phases = 17,280,000 seconds = 4800 hrs = 200 days.
>
>But, who's counting?

ROFLMAO!!! Just imagining a speedster trying to get up to speed... He'd
starve to death first, unless he can find a good FAST FOOD joint...

[ducks and runs]

Jim a.k.a. Da_Midge

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
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>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> writes:

L> One has already been given several times -- a dart which can penetrate
L> limited armor, delivering the full dose of a drug, but which cannot
L> penetrate thicker armor, giving no dose of the drug.

The delivery mechanism is an RKA of appropriate size. This incarnation,
the dart, is a 1/2D6 RKA (maybe even a 1D6 RKA).

The drug is whatever collection of powers and modifiers that may be
appropriate. The NND defense is appropriate Life Support or Immunity to
the chemical. This incarnation of the drug would get a -1/2 to -1
limitation "base attack must do Body damage"; the actual bonus should be
adjudicated by the GM based on the size of the base attack and average
defenses for the campaign. The same chemical with a different delivery
mechanism may receive other limitations instead.

The smaller of these two powers gets a Linked limitation (of the
appropriate sort if you are using a variant).

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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:39:25 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: VPP: Shapeshifting
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To: champ-l@omg.org

David Stallard wrote:
>
> My head is spinning with all the discussion about how much you can buy with
> your VPP. The latest I've seen on the list is that your point pool is used
> for the REAL cost of the powers, so you can actually have a lot more at
> once than it looks like at first glance, by slapping limitations on
> everything.

As always, all that follows is IMHO, but I think it is pretty sound.

Well, were you, as GM, really enforcing those limitations?

It is important, IMHO, to prohibit gratuitous limitations in a VPP. For
example, if the VPP allows a change of powers in combat-relevant time,
then a limitation "Powers only work in daylight" is generally gratuitous,
since when dusk comes, the character can simply switch to a form that has
powers "only at night." Bah! Neither is worth a limitation, because the
limitation will never matter.

OTOH, if the VPP required *days* to change, then the limitation would be
relevant.

I am also strict about things like Charges or Jammed, which can be very
abusive. If a power is defined in a VPP with the jammed limitation, or
if it is defined with Charges and those charges are used up, the real
points involved may not be reallocated for the rest of the day. You
could use some other time, based on SFX, such as getting back to the
Mothership in order to regenerate for 8 hours.

Ex: Abuseman has a 60 pt cosmic VPP (+2 to control cost, so
the real cost is 180 points). He creates a 4D6 RKA with just
one charge(-2) for 20 real points puts the remaining 40 pts
into a 20/20 Force Field with one continuing charge(day,-0).
He triggers his Force Field and goes into battle. Seeing that
his enemy is vulnerable to mental powers, he reconfigures his
4D6 RKA into a 6D6 Ego Attack, one charge, which he uses. He
then attempts to reconfigure the 20 points into an Autofire
Ego Blast, but cannot: the real points are locked. He then
attempts to reconfigure some of his force field, but the
points are also locked: all the charges have been used.

Ex: The next day, Abuseman has 4D6 RKA with 8- jammed x10END
for a total of -6 1/2: 8 real points. He fires successfully
(using 60 END!) and wants to reconfigure: no problem. Later,
he configures to the same RKA, and fires unsuccessfully (wasting
60 END!) The points are now locked and cannot be reconfigured.

If only a portion of the charges are used, then the player has two
options: keep those points in powers that have the same number of
charges, and treat that number of charges as having been used, or compute
the difference in cost between the power purchased and the power with the
number of charges that remain. The difference in points (which must be
at least one) are unusable for the rest of the day.

Ex: Abuseman whips out a modern RPG launcher: 2D6 RKA Expl AF
OAF Fragile 12 charges: 60 active/24 real. He fires one burst,
then wants to reconfigure. Since he now has 7 charges left,
the real cost would be 22 points, so two points are locked.

If the powers are put into a focus, and the focus is taken away or
destroyed, then the points cannot be reconfigured until the focus is
regained or replaced.

Ex: Abuseman decides to stick with the RPG launcher. An enemy
agent targets the weapon with his pistol and hits, doing 1 BODY.
The Fragile focus is wrecked, and Abuseman cannot now reconfigure
any of the 24 points committed.

Ex: The next day, Abuseman decides to spend a couple of extra
points and make his weapon an indestructible magic wand. Total
cost = 26 points. The enemy Martial Artist grabs the wand and
makes off with it. Abuseman is now out the points until he and
his friends hunt down the enemy and regain the wand.

Ablative defenses are another potential for abuse. The rule is similar
to that for charges. I will allow Ablative armor to start with an
activation roll for the sum of the limitations: Ablative 14- (-1 1/2), so
the real point difference can be computed.

Ex: Abuseman wants to survive the quest for his wand, so he
creates 15/15 Armor, Ablative(-1) for 22 real points. After
a battle, the Armor is down to 14-, so Abuseman wants to
reconfigure. Adding in the additonal -1/2, the armor is now
worth only 18 points, so that is how many Abuseman has to
spend. He can make a 20/25 Force Field, Ablative 14-, or an
18/18 Force Field Ablative that starts at full value, or do
something else entirely.

I think by now the idea is clear. Enforce those limitations!

> Anyway, I created a Shapeshifter this weekend with a VPP for my player to
> use (I let him approve or disapprove it...trust me, it would have taken
> many more hours to explain VPP to this player than to just do it myself).

You haven't said what control cost modifiers you put on the VPP. Was it
zero-phase? That seems unreasonable, since Shapeshift takes a
half-phase. Does it require a skill roll? That seems reasonable, and it
is generally ungodly expensive to avoid one.

If the GM and/or player are inexperienced with VPPs, then I recommend
having a set of powers approved *in advance* for use with the VPP. You
could even put a -1/2 limitation: only pre-approved powers, special
effect that it takes practice to achieve a new power.


> We played our first session with this character, which generated a lot of
> questions...we became pressed for time so I was somewhat liberal with what
> I allowed, but I think I will probably "lay down the law" on this character
> at the beginning of our next session. Please help me with following
> questions:
>
> * I quickly learned that this character has the potential to be an ungodly
> speedster by slapping the whole pool into Running or Flight. Should we put
> a limitation on this pool that says "only 20 points may be used for
> Movment" or something similar?

Well, every VPP is supposed to be implicitly limited by the special
effects that fit its concept. If this is a Shapeshifting VPP, then he
has to find some shape for which the speed in question is at least
vaquely reasonable. This is not worth a limitation, but is a necessary
part of every VPP. The "limited special effects" limitation is, IMO, to
be reserved for especially restrictive situations, such as only being
able to take the forms of creatures native to the region.

>
> * Would you allow Armor to be taken as part of this VPP? The player

Without a doubt, unless the power was unreasonable to the form. IMO,
super-shapeshifters can be faster, stronger and tougher than the normal
versions of things that they shapeshift into, but not by more than a
factor of 1.5 or so.


> explained it as hardening his skin, part of having control over his body.
> It became aggravating because the player was constantly shifting the amount
> of Armor he had (almost on a phase-by-phase basis),

Did he really pay the +1 for zero-phase on his Control Cost? Since the
VPP was shapeshifting in nature, I would require a change of shape for
something as significant as hardening skin.

>
> * I gave him a -1/2 limitation "Only shapeshifting effects", the purpose
> of which was to outlaw mental powers, eye beams, that sort of thing. Does
> this sound good, or is this limitation automatic (thus not worth a point
> break) when you define the special effect of your VPP?

I would say that this is automatic, but YMMV with other GMs.

>
> * Shapeshifting, Extra Limbs -- should these powers be bought outside of
> the VPP, or inside? Is it okay to buy Extra Limbs and say "variable"
> instead of picking a number of limbs? Maybe we should pick a maximum
> number of extra limbs he can have at once, and let him vary below that max?

If the VPP is Shapeshifting special effect, the shapeshifting should be
bought outside the VPP: you will always want it anyway, and it is too
expensive to put it into the VPP. If you want to change advantages or
limitations, there are Variable Advantage and Variable Limitation.

Extra Limbs absolutely fits into shapeshifting, so I would allow it
without qualm or question.

Things to be ware of are special defenses: Flash, Mental, Power, since
these can be whipped out on an as-needed basis. Also be careful of
specially-designed senses: Detect Dr. Destroyer, N-Ray, +30 PER is a good
example of an abuse.

I hope that this helps!
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:50:30 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 07:22 PM 3/22/1998 -0800, Christopher Taylor wrote:
> >> INCREASED STUN MULTIPLIER
> >>
> >> This Power Advantage increases the STUN Multiple of a Killing
> >> Attack. ... Increased Stun Multiplier has no effect on attacks
> >> other than Killing Attacks.
> >>

>
> I think you're looking at this wrongly.... the way ISM has been
> suggested (and not originally by me, though I was the first in the current
> discussion to bring it up) is that the above example would still roll 6d6,
> but add +1 STUN per die. So the average roll of a 6d6 Normal attack with
> +1 STUN would be 27.
> Maybe if its name was changed to Increased Stun Factor?

Normal attacks don't use a stun multiplier, so ISM has no meaning.

Trying to give it a meaning in the fashion described strikes me as a
solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Since an EB may be defined as
"does BODY' or "does no BODY" with no difference in cost, it seems
straightforward that part of an EB can do BODY and part not, again at
normal point cost.

50 10D6 EB, 8D6 does BODY, 2D6 does no BODY.

I would not permit

50 10D6 EB, 2D6 does BODY, 8D6 does no BODY,

without a really good explanation, but the former example increases the
STUN/BODY ratio by 7 points, which is close to +1 per die.

In view of this, I see no reason to develop house rules that contradict
one of the few clear-cut prohibiitions in the BBB. The Hero guys do this
so rarely that I tend to pay attention when they do.

As for EuroHero, or whereever this idea first appeared, I would dismiss
it at a misprint, and treat the EB as AP, which will probably have a very
similar effect in reasonable defense ranges.


--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
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X-SMTP: helo id.sedl.org from tsang@id.sedl.org server tsang@id.sedl.org ip 198.213.9.2
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:55:44 -0600
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

>> One has already been given several times -- a dart which can penetrate
>> limited armor, delivering the full dose of a drug, but which cannot
>> penetrate thicker armor, giving no dose of the drug.
>
>The delivery mechanism is an RKA of appropriate size. This incarnation,
>the dart, is a 1/2D6 RKA (maybe even a 1D6 RKA).
>
>The drug is whatever collection of powers and modifiers that may be
>appropriate. The NND defense is appropriate Life Support or Immunity to
>the chemical. This incarnation of the drug would get a -1/2 to -1
>limitation "base attack must do Body damage"; the actual bonus should be
>adjudicated by the GM based on the size of the base attack and average
>defenses for the campaign. The same chemical with a different delivery
>mechanism may receive other limitations instead.
>
>The smaller of these two powers gets a Linked limitation (of the
>appropriate sort if you are using a variant).

That's incredibly wrong: the dart doesn't really do any BODY damage!
Its only game effect is determining whether the attack gets through,
so it's really just a SFX of "doesn't work vs X".

And when you're talking about NND, a "doesn't work vs X" just becomes
part of the NND's defense, and is worth NO bonus. Now, if it were
on an AVLD or Drain or something, it might be appropriate

BTW, there is _NOTHING_ in the BBB that says "X" has to be a specific
Power; in fact, it's widely believed (by champ-l subscribers and
Hero Authors alike) that X should be SFX-based. As such, it could be
reasonably defined as "Y points of Z".

Finally, Rat, you might want to take a poll of GMs to see if your
requirements for NND defenses are a bit on the loose side.

Donald

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 19:06:24 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified)
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Player-bought supplements
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>This was one of my concerns that I didn't mention, and (so far) you're the
>only one who has touched on it. Allowing one player to use an "Ultimate"
>book means he has an unfair advantage over the other PCs and over all the
>villains, who don't have access to that book (to my knowledge, published
>NPCs do not use rules from the "Ultimate" books unless they themselves are
>published in that "Ultimate" book). In order to be fair, I would need an
>"Ultimate" book for every common character type, or at least for each
>member of the PC group if I was willing to put the villains at a slight
>disadvantage.

Oik. With that attitude, nobody would ever sell or use suppliments at all.
After all, we only have three 'ultimate' books out at the moment (TUM, TUMA,
TUSM), so everybody else is screwed, right? :-(

IMHO, wrong. Very few of the 'optional' rules in those books are terribly
imbalancing (AFAIK, I don't own TUSM) - most of them are there to 'add
resolution' to the particular genre. I'd really hesitate to call it an
'advantage' over other players and villians - unless you mean from the
perspective of giving character creation ideas.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Now, we get bigger guns."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins and Ron Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 18:23:18 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Player-bought supplements
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

At 03:44 PM 3/23/98 +0000, Theala Sildorian wrote:
>> I think the answer to this is "stop being a wimp", but here goes
>> anyway:

I *almost* wish I was having this problem. I try not to cause the GM any
grief when it's my turn to be a player, but I'm one of those who likes lots
of options (including kits and so forth from that "Complete..." series for
The Other Game). When players were ready to start character building for a
Heroic-level Star Hero game, I told them they could draw from Cyber Hero,
TUMA/Ninja Hero, TUM, the Almanacs when selecting abilities for their
characters. Initially, no one took me up on it (only one of the initial
group had ever player Hero before, so maybe they felt a little overwhelmed).

I have yet to see "completed" characters for me to approve, but at last
word one player thought he *might* have some minor cyber-netic enhancements
(type and function not determined), one player was considering a mentalist
(this is an experienced Hero player and a fellow list subscriber who joined
us late in the planning stages) and one had pretty much decided to have a
cybernetic Mind Link to their spaceship.

Damon
----------------------------------------------------------
Check the Star Hero campaign pages at
<http://www.txdirect.net/~griffin/starhero.htm>

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X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 18:29:52 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: FTL using flight
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

At 09:02 PM 3/22/98 -0800, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>Ran some numbers, looks like 5" with 24 extra noncombat multiples will do
>it, but have fun turning LOL


c = 30,000,000 m/s x 12 = 360,000,000 m/Turn
5" Flight = 10 m/phase
SPD 2 = 20 m/Turn combat, 40 m/Turn non-combat

360,000,000 / 40 = 9,000,000

So, you need to buy whatever number of doublings is necessary to increase
your velocity by a factor of 9,000,000. Purchasing 22 doublings won't
*quite* do it, even taking into account your free one. It will get you to
93.2% of light speed. One more doubling would take you all the way up to
186.4% of light speed, though, so that's overkill. I'd suggest breaking it
down to 20% increases [for 1 point, mathematically the same as doubling for
5 points] and buying 22.2 doublings as shown below. Buying 22.1 would get
you even closer to exact light speed, but you can't spend half a point.

For SPDs other than 2, use the chart below, but instead of 9,000,000, look
for these values:

N-C "/Turn Mult. Needed # Doublings Required
SPD 3 60 6,000,000 21.6
SPD 4 80 4,500,000 21.2
SPD 5 100 3,600,000 20.8
SPD 6 120 3,000,000 20.6
SPD 7 140 2,571,429 20.4
SPD 8 160 2,250,000 20.4
SPD 9 180 2,000,000 20
SPD 10 200 1,800,000 19.8
SPD 11 220 1,636,364 19.6
SPD 12 240 1,500,000 19.6

# x2 Cost Bought Total w/free x2 NCM
1 5 x2 x4
2 10 X4 x8
3 15 x8 x16
4 20 x16 x32
5 25 x32 x64
6 30 X64 x128
7 35 X128 x256
8 40 x256 x512
9 45 x512 x1024
10 50 x1024 x2048
11 55 x2048 x4096
12 60 x4096 x8192
13 65 x8192 x16,384
14 70 x16,384 x32,768
15 75 x32,768 x65,536
16 80 x65,536 x131,072
17 85 x131,072 x262,144
18 90 X262,144 x524,288
19 95 X524,288 x1,048,576
19.2 96 x629,146 x1,258,292
19.4 97 x734,003 x1,468,006
19.6 98 x838,860 X1,677,722
19.8 99 x943,718 x1,887,436
20 100 X1,048,576 x2,097,152
20.2 101 x1,258,291 x2,516,582
20.4 102 x1,468,006 x2,936,013
20.6 103 x1,677,722 x3,355,444
20.8 104 x1,887,437 x3,774,874
21 105 X2,097,152 x4,194,304
21.2 106 x2,516,582 x5,033,164
21.4 107 x2,936,013 x5,872,026
21.6 108 x3,355,443 x6,710,886
21.8 109 x3,774,874 x7,549,747
22 110 X4,194,304 x8,388,608
22.2 111 x5,033,165 x10,066,330
22.4 112 x5,872,026 x11,744,052
22.6 113 x6,710,886 x13,421,772
22.8 114 x7,549,747 x15,099,494
23 115 x8,388,608 x16,777,216

If the character can only travel at these speeds by traveling along an
electrical line, then Turn Mode probably isn't an issue anyway; all he
can do is follow the existing line. The END Cost would be prohibitive,
though, as would bringing that many Active Points to 0 END.

Again, if the character can only travel along electrical lines, just
point out that there's no air inside the copper wire that makes up the
travel medium; with air resistance removed as a limiting factor, there's
no reason the character can't just use FTL, at 0 END, for 10 points.



|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/ |
| Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines |
| Worthy Causes -- Computer -- Atlanta -- All Human Knowledge |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 18:55:18 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: New server?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

I wonder why it is that since the switch to the new server (if that's what
caused the new Welcome message to be generated), some of the messages
coming from the list...notably those posted by Rat, but not only his...are
no longer being filtered into the Hero box of my email? These are not
off-list personal responses to me, in fact mainly they follow threads I've
ignored.

Anyone else experienced this in the past day or two?

Damon

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 23 Mar 1998 20:29:38 -0500
Lines: 29
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "DT" == Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org> writes:

DT> That's incredibly wrong: the dart doesn't really do any BODY damage!

Consider that tranquilizer darts fired from high-powered rifles have a
fairly sharp tip and are moving at several hundred feet per second. This
is "a dart which can penetrate limited [light] armor", the exact effect
described. It most certainly *WILL* do some BODY damage to an unarmored
target.

If you have a different effect in mind, describe it and I will take a stab
(heh!) at it.

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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
\

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X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:42:01 -0800
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: FTL using flight
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>>Ran some numbers, looks like 5" with 24 extra noncombat multiples will do
>>it, but have fun turning LOL

...

(many charts and numbers deleted)

Good lord you have a lot of extra time

----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Mail-Copies-To: never
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes:

RAW> 60 6D6 EB NND, defense is to make a PRE roll. AIs and
RAW> any "perfectly logical" aliens are immune by SFX.

This one is easy, because you are using the wrong basic power.

6D6 Ego Attack, No Range, Visible to Sight group. Whether or not the
immunity of AIs and other "perfectly logical" beings is worth a limitation
depends on how common they are in the campaign.


RAW> 60 3D6 EB NND Continuous: stopped by breaking entangle
RAW> Defenses: 10 pts Life Support or 10 PD Rigid Armor or 45 STR
RAW> 33 5D6 Entangle Linked to EB.

Again, you are working with the wrong base power. Try "Grab and Squeeze"
or "Choke Hold".


RAW> I already gave the Dr. Geriatric example, which you ignored, as a case
RAW> where supra-minimum levels were required for game-balance reasons.

RAW> 60 6D6 EB NND Defenses is LS:Aging

Wow! three strikes for using the wrong power. Try a Transformation attack
instead (which would have Power Defense as the appropriate defense) with a
- -0 SFX limitation that those few characters with Life Support vs. Aging are
immune to the attack.

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X-SMTP: helo vega.iii.com from ajackson@iii.com server @vega.iii.com ip 192.33.187.51
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:47:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

Stainless Steel Rat writes:
> Consider that tranquilizer darts fired from high-powered rifles have a
> fairly sharp tip and are moving at several hundred feet per second. This
> is "a dart which can penetrate limited [light] armor", the exact effect
> described. It most certainly *WILL* do some BODY damage to an unarmored
> target.
>
> If you have a different effect in mind, describe it and I will take a stab
> (heh!) at it.

Whether or not a real tranquilizer dart should do body, a 'comic-book' dart
probably shouldn't....

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 19:48:39 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Takedown maneuver
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org


> In our game this weekend, a 20 STR Martial Artist used Takedown to knock
> over one of those hulking Mech Vipers (2 levels of Growth, etc). This
> strikes me as a little odd...a normal person can knock over a big, heavy
> robot? There doesn't seem to be a rule against it, but would you declare
> that such a thing just isn't possible?

I think the rule is the attacker must be able to lift the target
with pushed strength, even if the attack isn't using pushed STR. If not,
the takedown won't do a knockdown.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 19:50:16 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: VPP: Shapeshifting
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org


> How about applying "Must Shapeshift to Change VPP (-1/4)" as a limitation on
> the VPP? Shapeshifting takes a 1/2 phase, so the player will be a lot less
> willing to use it.

Shapeshifting takes a half phase? Coulda fooled me.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 19:52:02 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Master Ambiguity List
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org


> > Um, no multiples necessary. Just make SFX to turn to light at
> >move up to 5". The actual movement is quite FTL.
>
> Surely you're not saying that I could just buy 5" of flight in your
> campaign, and be able to move at the speed of light just based on SFX?

Yes I am. However, your average speed would be a lot less as
you'd have to continually stop. You are limited to that 5" per phase of
action -- make up a SFX reason.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 18:10:21 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

qts wrote:
>
>
> I'm not sure that I go along with that: Public Id is for better or for
> worse (everyone can easily find out who they are), whereas Reputation
> is one or the other (everyone knows X about them).
>
> To take Mrs Thatcher/Iron Maiden as an example, she would have Public
> ID: Prime Minister of GB, and would have Reputation: Stateswoman, and
> she might have Secret ID: Iron Maiden and (as Iron Maiden) Reputation:
> Honourable.
> qts
>
> Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

I still say that you have the wrong disadvantage. IMHO, if Secret ID
would not be permissible for a particular application, then Public ID
would not. Now, can you imagine the Prime Minister of the UK having a
Secret ID? Listen to the BBC:

The second Falklands Crisis is careening towards war, and still
no one knows where our anonymous Prime Minster is. Since the
Lords and Commons consented to the closing of 10 Downing St.,
and the installation of the untraceable PM-Phone, there has been
concern that something of this nature might occur.

Does the PM wear a mask and skintights during Question Period? Geeze!

The fact is that, in the ordinary course of events, everyone knows who
cares, knows who the Head of State, Head of Gov't and so on are. Public
ID has no place here any more than secret ID does; what you want is
Watched by Press, Public, Opposition and Government.

Perks:

9 Head of Government, but not Head of State.
25 Various Contacts
15 Various Favors
50 Political Followers: 32 followers worth 20 pts each.

Skills:

9 PS: Politician +3
3 PS: Law
3 KS: Law
3 Acting
3 Bribery
3 Bureaucratics
3 Conversation
3 High Society
5 Oratory +1
5 Persuasion +1
3 Seduction (fast-talk)
24 3 Skill Levels w/ all political skills
---
166 Total Powers

Disadvantages

13 Watched by Opposition (as pow, NCI) 14-
12 Watched by Press (as pow, NCI) 14-
15 Watched by Government (more pow, NCI) 14-
10 Watched by Public (more pow, NCI) 8- (when crisis, etc.)
20 Reputation 14- Iron Lady (extreme)
5 Professional Rival (Shadow PM)
5 Professional Rival (Minister of the Exchequer)
3 Package Bonus
---
83 Total Disadvantages
83+ Net Cost of Package
---
166 Total


--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 23 Mar 1998 21:20:30 -0500
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>>>>> "AJ" == Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> writes:

AJ> Whether or not a real tranquilizer dart should do body, a 'comic-book'
AJ> dart probably shouldn't....

Then describe the special effect of a "comic book" dart if it is different
from the real thing that is used, for instance, to penetrate the hide of a
rhinocerous (which I would hazard is around 3rPD).

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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:29:51 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: VPP: Shapeshifting
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On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

>
> > How about applying "Must Shapeshift to Change VPP (-1/4)" as a limitation on
> > the VPP? Shapeshifting takes a 1/2 phase, so the player will be a lot less
> > willing to use it.
>
> Shapeshifting takes a half phase? Coulda fooled me.

HSR page 83, second paragraph: "A character may freely switch his form as
often as desired; switching shapes takes a half Phase. Keeping his shape
costs END."

So not only is a half-phase action required to reconfigure the VPP, but it
costs END to maintain the new configuration. -1/4 might be a little
low...

As for Extra Limbs, I'd suggest that the ability to grow extra limbs
should come free with the 30-point version of Shapeshift; it is - at most
- 2 points worth of abilities which, to be honest, don't do a thing for
you beyond their SFX...

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: New server?
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 23 Mar 1998 21:31:27 -0500
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>>>>> "JD" == John Desmarais <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> writes:

JD> in Rat's case (and I thik Rook's) is now champ-l@sysabend.org.

About the size of it, yeah.

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\

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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 21:37:01 -0500 (EST)
From: William K Bushway <wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: New server?
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:

> I wonder why it is that since the switch to the new server (if that's what
> caused the new Welcome message to be generated), some of the messages
> coming from the list...notably those posted by Rat, but not only his...are
> no longer being filtered into the Hero box of my email? These are not
> off-list personal responses to me, in fact mainly they follow threads I've
> ignored.

It may be that Rat is sending his messages to
"champ-l@sysabend.org" rather than the traditional "champ-l@omg.org"

You may need to change or add the address to your filters. I know
I did, and because I'm using pine, I still might not have this set up
right.

[note: People ought to be recieving 2 copies of this message, and I'm
sorry about that. I wanted to test my filters - if they're working both
of these messages ought to end up in my Champs folder.]

William K. Bushway, wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu
http://Mason.GMU.edu/~wbushway/index.html
"I'm betting that I'm just abnormal enough to survive."
-The Tick, The Tick Vs.The Breadmaster

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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 21:37:01 -0500 (EST)
From: William K Bushway <wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: New server?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:

> I wonder why it is that since the switch to the new server (if that's what
> caused the new Welcome message to be generated), some of the messages
> coming from the list...notably those posted by Rat, but not only his...are
> no longer being filtered into the Hero box of my email? These are not
> off-list personal responses to me, in fact mainly they follow threads I've
> ignored.

It may be that Rat is sending his messages to
"champ-l@sysabend.org" rather than the traditional "champ-l@omg.org"

You may need to change or add the address to your filters. I know
I did, and because I'm using pine, I still might not have this set up
right.

[note: People ought to be recieving 2 copies of this message, and I'm
sorry about that. I wanted to test my filters - if they're working both
of these messages ought to end up in my Champs folder.]

William K. Bushway, wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu
http://Mason.GMU.edu/~wbushway/index.html
"I'm betting that I'm just abnormal enough to survive."
-The Tick, The Tick Vs.The Breadmaster

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
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Date: 23 Mar 1998 21:57:02 -0500
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>>>>> "RA" == Ron Abitz <ronald@centraltx.net> writes:

RAW> 60 3D6 EB NND Continuous: stopped by breaking entangle
RAW> Defenses: 10 pts Life Support or 10 PD Rigid Armor or 45 STR
RAW> 33 5D6 Entangle Linked to EB.

>> Again, you are working with the wrong base power. Try "Grab and Squeeze"
>> or "Choke Hold".

RA> How is a Entange going to "Grab squeeze" or "choke hold"

Replace that whole construct, the NND and the Entangle, with a Grab and
Squeeze maneuver or a Choke Hold maneuver. The whole construct is a hack;
the Entangle is there to simulate the holding aspect of a choke hold, while
the NND is there to simulate the choking aspect of a choke hold. That
should be a big clue that there is a better way of doing it.

Grab and Squeeze does not do NND damage, but it is your basic "constrict"
maneuver. And it costs you no more than the points you have already spent
on Strength.

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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
\ Earth, presumably from outer space.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 18:58:38 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Player-bought supplements
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> > What would you do? Completely outlaw NH and make him convert his special
> > maneuvers into those in the BBB? Continue to use NH on a rule-by-rule
> > basis, without knowing those rules in advance? Sit down and read the darn
> > book so that the player can get his money's worth out of it?
>
> I have a simple ruling I made in all of the games I run that solves the
> problem quite efficiently: If the GM does not own it, the players may use
> NOTHING from it.

My rule is that anything published goes until I see it in action and
decide otherwise. I have no qualms about retconning out something I
previously
allowed. Of course, I also expect to be able to say why. And if
something is truely disturbing the style or balance of play that's not
hard to do.
How I manage to get by with such an uncontrolled rule is simple. I
don't socialize with argumentative types. Gaming or otherwise. :) We'll
all stop for a bit to discuss a rule, and in fact I have no qualms about
admitting to my players that I have no idea on how to rule a certain
situation and asking their opinions. I've found that solves more trouble
than it starts in the long run.

--
Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role
Playing

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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 19:41:22 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>
> *WHY* does the power in question work this way? Describe the effects of
> the power without using gamae mechanics and I will give you a writeup using
> game mechanics.
>

Fair enough. Here are some (slightly modified) actual examples, and my
mechanics for them:

Death Knight can summon a phantasmal blade that attacks whom he commands.
This blade is perfectly visible, even to cameras, but has no substance,
so it passes through armor, force fields and the like. If the target can
keep his mind concentrated enough to completely ignore the blade, he is
safe and will suffer no effects, but even a moment's waver in
concentration and he will suffer all the pain of being sliced by a sword.

60 6D6 EB NND, defense is to make a PRE roll. AIs and
any "perfectly logical" aliens are immune by SFX.


Constrictor has snakes who attack people by suffocation. Only people who
do not need to breathe, who are encased in heavy rigid armor that
prevents construction or who are so strong as to be able to shrug off the
attack. Once commenced, the attack only ends when the victim goes
unconscious or the snake is destroyed.

60 3D6 EB NND Continuous: stopped by breaking entangle
Defenses: 10 pts Life Support or 10 PD Rigid Armor or 45 STR
33 5D6 Entangle Linked to EB.

I already gave the Dr. Geriatric example, which you ignored, as a case
where supra-minimum levels were required for game-balance reasons.

60 6D6 EB NND Defenses is LS:Aging

is a fine NND that fits your rules, but in most campaigns, LS:Aging is
just not common enough. After discussion, the following was arrived at.

60 6D6 EB NND Defenses are any of: LS:Aging, 10 Power Def,
5 hardened Power Defense.

Making this an AVLD vs Power Defense would make it more effective against
people with high Power Defense and less effective against everyone else,
since DC limits would reduce it to 5D6 AVLD, and it is, at base, a fine
NND vs Aging.


--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 21:50:53 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Master Ambiguity List
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

>
> > > Um, no multiples necessary. Just make SFX to turn to light at
> > >move up to 5". The actual movement is quite FTL.
> >
> > Surely you're not saying that I could just buy 5" of flight in your
> > campaign, and be able to move at the speed of light just based on SFX?
>
> Yes I am. However, your average speed would be a lot less as
> you'd have to continually stop. You are limited to that 5" per phase of
> action -- make up a SFX reason.

How much damage do you do on a move through?

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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 19:56:40 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Ambiguity List addition: Throwing Damage, Object Damage.
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>
> The girder does not do more damage, per se. And as Tim pointed out, it
> could actually do less. What it gives you is a small Area of Effect Cone
> or Circle.
>

This depends on the strength of the user and the durability of the
weapon.

Try this thought experiment. Imagine your head being hit once by a thug
with his fist. Now imagine your head being hit with the same thug
wielding a baseball bat. The first will hurt, the second can kill.

>From a real-world point of view, any long, swung weapon allows the
wielder to do more damage in two ways: the wielder can use full force
without worrying about hurting his hands, and the weapon can be used to
store kinetic energy over a swing and to release it suddenly on impact.

Now, we tend to assume that to 50 STR brick can withstand his own
punches, so a poor little baseball bat, or even a girder, will expend its
stored energy in breaking, while a fist will deliver full measure;
however, if the girder has DEF+BODY > STR/5 of the wielder, it will add
to damage, as well as adding to OCV or creating a small Area Effect.


--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest

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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 22:12:33 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Reply-To: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: VPP: More Questions
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org


OK...I have a couple questions on how to increase (or perhaps limit) the
flexibility of Variable Power Pools.

Normally, if you have X points in your pool, you can have X Real Points
worth of powers with no more than X active points each.

What if I wanted to have X active points worth of powers, but they were
limited to 1/2 X Active Points? Hmm...I suppose I could buy two separate
pools, but I think having two 20 point pools is less versatile than having
1 40 point pool, even though they'd cost the same amount.

My second question is the reverse of the first one: What if I wanted to
have a 60 pt pool that could only have 30 Real Points of powers in it?
What would the limitation be?

J

P.S. What's the difference between omg.org and sysabend.org? Which one
should I be sending my posts to? Is one of them going to go away soon?

"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:29:53 -0800
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Extra limbs, was Re: VPP: Shapeshifting
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 08:29 PM 3/23/98 -0600, Dataweaver wrote:
>As for Extra Limbs, I'd suggest that the ability to grow extra limbs
>should come free with the 30-point version of Shapeshift; it is - at
most
>- 2 points worth of abilities which, to be honest, don't do a thing
for
>you beyond their SFX...
>
Which shows the problems with Extra Limbs. One of the areas where I
like GURPS better than Hero, though I think EL prices in GURPS are a
tad high still...

Part of the problem, I think, is that in Superheroic game, Extra
Limbs are just a special effect, while in a heroic game, they can
justify things which would ordinarily not be allowed, such as +20
STR, only to break grabs (hard to hold onto someone with 4 arms);1
Hex Stretching, Tail; Increased Char Maxima (Running), Extra Legs,
etc.

However, in a superheroic game, any or all of these powers can be
bought with no particular justification at all. All other things
being equal, a four-armed martial artist ought to be able to kick the
tar out of a two armed martial artist, but if their point values are
equal, this won't happen. Hell, spend the 5 points on a skill level
with HTH Combat, and call it "Extra arms".
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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:31:41 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: FTL using flight
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

Jim Dickinson wrote:
>
> At 12:42 AM 3/23/98 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:
> >Oh, and it takes several months to get to velocity:
> >7,200,000 phases = 17,280,000 seconds = 4800 hrs = 200 days.
> >
> >But, who's counting?
>
> ROFLMAO!!! Just imagining a speedster trying to get up to speed... He'd
> starve to death first, unless he can find a good FAST FOOD joint...
>
> [ducks and runs]

Nah! He just learns to eat light!

>
> Jim a.k.a. Da_Midge

Well, looking over my post again, I realized that I *gotta* buy off that
14- limitation on my INT. I undervalued c by an order of magnitude.

c = 300,000,000 m/s
m=5" movement at SPD 5 = 50m/12s = 4.1667m/s
c/m=300,000,000=72,000,000
log 72,000,000/log 2 = 26.101
So, you need 25 *extra* non-combat multiples, not 23.

And it takes 72,000,000 phases = 48,000 hours = 2000 days = 5.476 years
to accelerate. I am so embarrassed.


--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest

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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 23:31:50 -0500 (EST)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: VPP: Shapeshifting
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>
>> How about applying "Must Shapeshift to Change VPP (-1/4)" as a limitation on
>> the VPP? Shapeshifting takes a 1/2 phase, so the player will be a lot less
>> willing to use it.
>
> Shapeshifting takes a half phase? Coulda fooled me.

BBB pg. 83, "Shape Shift":

"A character may freely switch his form as often as desired; switching
shapes takes half a Phase."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Now, we get bigger guns."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins and Ron Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 23:31:54 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: VPP: Shapeshifting
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X-Hero: champ-l
To: champ-l@omg.org

>> Shapeshifting takes a half phase? Coulda fooled me.
>
>HSR page 83, second paragraph: "A character may freely switch his form as
>often as desired; switching shapes takes a half Phase. Keeping his shape
>costs END."
>
>So not only is a half-phase action required to reconfigure the VPP, but it
>costs END to maintain the new configuration. -1/4 might be a little
>low...

Maybe - I was thinking of a normal VPP, where it takes time and a skill roll
to change powers anyway - for example, if it takes a Turn to change powers
(no skill roll involved, just time), this is a very small limitation. On a
Cosmic shapeshifting VPP, it should be larger. If "No Time" is +1, then
"Half Phase Required" is a -1/2 ("Full Phase" being the default, the
difference between Full Phase and No Time being 1 full advantage number.).

>As for Extra Limbs, I'd suggest that the ability to grow extra limbs
>should come free with the 30-point version of Shapeshift; it is - at most
>- 2 points worth of abilities which, to be honest, don't do a thing for
>you beyond their SFX...

Not exactly true; with multiple arms you can carry more guns and switch
between them at will without having to fast draw, you could hold someone and
still punch them, get surprise bonuses - someone with more limbs has more
options than pure SFX would allow.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Now, we get bigger guns."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins and Ron Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 23:11:40 -0600 (CST)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
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Subject: Re: VPP: Shapeshifting
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On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, John and Ron Prins wrote:

> >> Shapeshifting takes a half phase? Coulda fooled me.
> >
> >HSR page 83, second paragraph: "A character may freely switch his form
> >as often as desired; switching shapes takes a half Phase. Keeping his
> >shape costs END."
> >
> >So not only is a half-phase action required to reconfigure the VPP, but
> >it costs END to maintain the new configuration. -1/4 might be a little
> >low...
>
> Maybe - I was thinking of a normal VPP, where it takes time and a skill
> roll to change powers anyway - for example, if it takes a Turn to change
> powers (no skill roll involved, just time), this is a very small
> limitation. On a Cosmic shapeshifting VPP, it should be larger. If "No
> Time" is +1, then "Half Phase Required" is a -1/2 ("Full Phase" being
> the default, the difference between Full Phase and No Time being 1 full
> advantage number.).

I think you meant +1/2...

> >As for Extra Limbs, I'd suggest that the ability to grow extra limbs
> >should come free with the 30-point version of Shapeshift; it is - at
> >most -2 points worth of abilities which, to be honest, don't do a
> >thing for you beyond their SFX...
>
> Not exactly true; with multiple arms you can carry more guns and switch
> between them at will without having to fast draw, you could hold someone
> and still punch them, get surprise bonuses - someone with more limbs has
> more options than pure SFX would allow.

Actually, everything you mention above is nothing more than SFX of the
limbs - for instance, Extra Limbs (SFX: eight extra arms, two wings, and a
prehensile tail). And it would definitely fall within the SFX of whatever
form Shapeshift would let you transform into...

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
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Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 23:16:25 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Correction of my FTL notes
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My apologies; like Robert I shifted a decimal point. Here are the
corrected figures and a slightly shorter table than my first one --

c = 300,000,000 m/s x 12 = 3,600,000,000 m/Turn
5" Flight = 10 m/phase
SPD 2 = 20 m/Turn combat, 40 m/Turn non-combat

360,000,000 / 40 = 90,000,000

So, you need to buy whatever number of doublings is necessary to increase
your velocity by a factor of 90,000,000 (not 9,000,000 as I said earlier).

N-C "/Turn Mult. Needed Doublings Required
SPD 2 40 90,000,000 26.4
SPD 3 60 60,000,000 25.8
SPD 4 80 45,000,000 25.4
SPD 5 100 36,000,000 25.2
SPD 6 120 30,000,000 24.8
SPD 7 140 27,714,290 24.8
SPD 8 160 22,500,000 24.4
SPD 9 180 20,000,000 24.2
SPD 10 200 18,000,000 24.2
SPD 11 220 16,363,636 24
SPD 12 240 15,000,000 23.8

# x2 Cost Bought
23 115 x8,388,608
23.2 116 x10,066,330
23.4 117 x11,744,051
23.6 118 x13,421,773
23.8 119 x15,099,494
24 120 x16,777,216
24.2 121 x20,132,659
24.4 122 x23,488,102
24.6 123 x26,843,546
24.8 124 x30,198,989
25 125 x33,554,432
25.2 126 x40,265,318
25.4 127 x46,976,205
25.6 128 x53,687,091
25.8 129 x60,397,978
26 130 x67,108,864
26.2 131 x80,530,637
26.4 132 x93,952,410
26.6 133 x107,374,182
26.8 134 x120,795,955

Robert, it still appears that 25 purchased multiples for a character with
SPD 5 will only get to 93.2% of c. You need that extra 20% increase to
push it over the top (to 111.85%) unless your GM will let you take the
extra 1.2 million "/Turn without paying for them.

Damon

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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@USA.Net>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 21:25:47 -0800
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-----Original Message-----
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Monday, March 23, 1998 4:40 PM
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "DT" == Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org> writes:
>
>DT> That's incredibly wrong: the dart doesn't really do any BODY
damage!
>
>Consider that tranquilizer darts fired from high-powered rifles have
a
>fairly sharp tip and are moving at several hundred feet per second.
This
>is "a dart which can penetrate limited [light] armor", the exact
effect
>described. It most certainly *WILL* do some BODY damage to an
unarmored
>target.


Considering that an average man hit with 20 such (undrugged) darts
would probably not die instantly, I must disagree.

>If you have a different effect in mind, describe it and I will take a
stab
>(heh!) at it.


Very well, if you insist.

The same attack as before, but the drug is injected by high-pressure,
rather than a dart. The drug is such that tiny quantities will induce
instant unconsciousness, but additional amounts, within reason, will
do nothing.

12d6 NND (Defense is Armor or Force Field which would have stopped a
1d6 AP RKA), no effect unless it renders target unconscious (-1)

Filksinger

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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: VPP: Shapeshifting
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>> Maybe - I was thinking of a normal VPP, where it takes time and a skill
>> roll to change powers anyway - for example, if it takes a Turn to change
>> powers (no skill roll involved, just time), this is a very small
>> limitation. On a Cosmic shapeshifting VPP, it should be larger. If "No
>> Time" is +1, then "Half Phase Required" is a -1/2 ("Full Phase" being
>> the default, the difference between Full Phase and No Time being 1 full
>> advantage number.).
>
>I think you meant +1/2...

What I meant was:

VPP Control: No Time (+1), Requires a Use of Shape Shift to Change (-1/2)

which is as much as saying:

VPP Control: No Time(+1), Half Phase Required (-1/2)

with no other advantages or lims sneaking in, yeah, "Half-Phase to Change"
I'd allow as a +1/2 advantage rather than a limited advantage.

>Actually, everything you mention above is nothing more than SFX of the
>limbs - for instance, Extra Limbs (SFX: eight extra arms, two wings, and a
>prehensile tail). And it would definitely fall within the SFX of whatever
>form Shapeshift would let you transform into...

I'd require Extra Limbs: Linked to Shapeshift (-1/2) for any shapeshifter
that intended to grow extra limbs. A large number of Earth animals have only
4 'useful' limbs - birds, mammals, reptiles, even most fish only have 4 fins
they can 'wiggle'. Without it they could (IMC) only form 'useless' lumps of
'matter' (whatever the shapeshifter is) that appear to be limbs. Shapeshift
alone should not, and cannot provide Extra Limbs on its own - any more than
it can grant Sonar or Flight.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Now, we get bigger guns."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins and Ron Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 21:52:38 -0800
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On Monday, March 23, 1998 2:37 PM, Robert A. West wrote:


>qts wrote:
>>
>>
>> I'm not sure that I go along with that: Public Id is for better or
for
>> worse (everyone can easily find out who they are), whereas
Reputation
>> is one or the other (everyone knows X about them).
>>
>> To take Mrs Thatcher/Iron Maiden as an example, she would have
Public
>> ID: Prime Minister of GB, and would have Reputation: Stateswoman,
and
>> she might have Secret ID: Iron Maiden and (as Iron Maiden)
Reputation:
>> Honourable.
>> qts
>>
>> Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
>
>I still say that you have the wrong disadvantage.

He does, but not the way you think. The BBB clearly states of Public
ID "Such a figure has no possible secret or underground identity...."
This clearly prohibits Public ID.

>IMHO, if Secret ID
>would not be permissible for a particular application, then Public ID
>would not. Now, can you imagine the Prime Minister of the UK having
a
>Secret ID? Listen to the BBC:
>
> The second Falklands Crisis is careening towards war, and still
> no one knows where our anonymous Prime Minster is. Since the
> Lords and Commons consented to the closing of 10 Downing St.,
> and the installation of the untraceable PM-Phone, there has been
> concern that something of this nature might occur.
>
>Does the PM wear a mask and skintights during Question Period?
Geeze!
>
>The fact is that, in the ordinary course of events, everyone knows
who
>cares, knows who the Head of State, Head of Gov't and so on are.
Public
>ID has no place here any more than secret ID does; what you want is
>Watched by Press, Public, Opposition and Government.


Reread the description of Public ID. The very first line in Public ID
is, "A character with this Disadvantage is a public figure, and will
be known and recognized nearly everywhere." That certainly matches
being Prime Minister. If you can find a single line that does not
apply perfectly to Margret Thatcher, I'll eat my copy of the BBB. No
where does it state that such a figure need be a superhero, it is a
generic disadvantage taken by people too public to secretly be
superheroes.

Filksinger

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From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
To: John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: VPP: Shapeshifting
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On Tue, 24 Mar 1998, John and Ron Prins wrote:

> >> Maybe - I was thinking of a normal VPP, where it takes time and a
> >> skill roll to change powers anyway - for example, if it takes a Turn
> >> to change powers (no skill roll involved, just time), this is a very
> >> small limitation. On a Cosmic shapeshifting VPP, it should be larger.
> >> If "No Time" is +1, then "Half Phase Required" is a -1/2 ("Full
> >> Phase" being the default, the difference between Full Phase and No
> >> Time being 1 full advantage number.).
> >
> >I think you meant +1/2...
>
> What I meant was:
>
> VPP Control: No Time (+1), Requires a Use of Shape Shift to Change
> (-1/2)
>
> which is as much as saying:
>
> VPP Control: No Time(+1), Half Phase Required (-1/2)
>
> with no other advantages or lims sneaking in, yeah, "Half-Phase to Change"
> I'd allow as a +1/2 advantage rather than a limited advantage.

...although there would be a minimum of a further -1/2: Powers limited by
form.

> >Actually, everything you mention above is nothing more than SFX of the
> >limbs - for instance, Extra Limbs (SFX: eight extra arms, two wings,
> >and a prehensile tail). And it would definitely fall within the SFX of
> >whatever form Shapeshift would let you transform into...
>
> I'd require Extra Limbs: Linked to Shapeshift (-1/2) for any
> shapeshifter that intended to grow extra limbs.

So "Any shape or form" (30-pt Shapeshift) translates to "any shape or form
with four limbs or less"?

> A large number of Earth animals have only 4 'useful' limbs - birds,
> mammals, reptiles, even most fish only have 4 fins they can 'wiggle'.
> Without it they could (IMC) only form 'useless' lumps of 'matter'
> (whatever the shapeshifter is) that appear to be limbs. Shapeshift
> alone should not, and cannot provide Extra Limbs on its own - any more
> than it can grant Sonar or Flight.

Why not? There's nothing provided by Extra Limbs in terms of game
mechanics; just special effects.

---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"

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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 00:55:57 -0600
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
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At 05:10 AM 3/24/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> I happen to consider Energy Blast doing no BODY for no modifier a silly
>rules crock. I mean, at no modifier, my EB does no Knockback, and cannot

Um ... where does it say it does no Knockback?

>affect vehicles, automatons, foci, Entangles, walls, or any other inanimate
>objects. And what's the supposedly balancing factor? I can't accidentally
>hurt innocent bystanders, or do damage to property I don't want to damage.

It's an example of HERO's roots in Champions. It's considered "balanced"
because of the assumption that Heroes Don't Kill, ergo not doing lethal
damange is a plus. This is forgetting completely that (a) not all HERO
system characters /are/ heroes -- villains buy EBs too, and WANT to do BODY
damage, and (b) not all campaigns will care about lethal damage (a "lawless
frontier" sci-fi setting, you just want to get the job done any way you can).

> I'm sorry, but this "balance" just doesn't wash with me. If "No
>Knockback" is a Limitation worth -1/4 (and hey, I can't accidentally knock
>a villain back into the crowd, or into property I don't want to damage),
>then "No BODY" should certainly be a -1/2 Limitation.

I agree -- for my own campaigns, "No BODY" is most assuredly worth a
limitation on the power.

--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html

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From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 02:02:45 -0500 (EST)
Organization: VTSFFC
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>
> Then describe the special effect of a "comic book" dart if it is different
> from the real thing that is used, for instance, to penetrate the hide of a
> rhinocerous (which I would hazard is around 3rPD).

The special effect of a Comic Book Dart is a small steel needle fired
at high velocity from an air rifle. By Comic Book Physics, such darts
often have the ability to drop any animal in their tracks without doing
the slightest bit of harm to them. No blood, no injury, no sign that
the animal was ever struck by the dart once it is physically removed.

Daniel Pawtowski

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From: Sojdev <Sojdev@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 02:19:08 EST
Subject: Silhouettes
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Does anybody know where I can download some silhouettes? I am not the
greatest artist but have had great success in modifying the ones found with
the character sheets. However, I would like to know if there are any
different ones available?

Sojdev@aol.com

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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 01:32:57 -0600 (CST)
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Subject: Re: Silhouettes
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At 02:19 AM 3/24/98 EST, Sojdev wrote:
>Does anybody know where I can download some silhouettes? I am not the
>greatest artist but have had great success in modifying the ones found with
>the character sheets. However, I would like to know if there are any
>different ones available?

There are a couple on the Herozine web page, (address listed below)

Hero Games also has a couple on it's page now, but they come on a sheet in
pdf format.

Michael
Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist recently updated web site...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm

"You have never lived until you have almost died.
And for those who fight for it,
life has a flavor the protected never know"
- anonymous

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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 02:12:54 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: RE: Presence Attacks
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> > +4d6? That's low. Violent action, exhibiting powers,
> >mega-extreme reputation.
>
> He doesn't need much of a bonus. If you look at the film, you'll notice
> he isn't eating people, just burning their houses.

And that's not a violent action?


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 02:16:04 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Player-bought supplements
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> I have a simple ruling I made in all of the games I run that solves the
> problem quite efficiently: If the GM does not own it, the players may use
> NOTHING from it.

This is a sad reaction. What a wonderful way to encourage fellow
gamers to get more into a system.

Seems a case of "GM on a power trip -- and no player is going to
have a say in how this campaign is run.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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> TRG> Why uncommon? Perhaps the purchase at the higher amount is common
> TRG> in a certain (or many) campaign(s).
>
> Then you have created an in-house ruling.

If so, then every NND and AVLD requires a house ruling.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
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> The delivery mechanism is an RKA of appropriate size. This incarnation,
> the dart, is a 1/2D6 RKA (maybe even a 1D6 RKA).

Hmmm. The problem here is doing damage with something that,
conceptually, shouldn't. while many of these needles/etc will be able to
penetrate some resistant def, they shouldn't actually be doing damage.

> The drug is whatever collection of powers and modifiers that may be
> appropriate. The NND defense is appropriate Life Support or Immunity to
> the chemical. This incarnation of the drug would get a -1/2 to -1
> limitation "base attack must do Body damage"; the actual bonus should be
> adjudicated by the GM based on the size of the base attack and average
> defenses for the campaign. The same chemical with a different delivery
> mechanism may receive other limitations instead.

Hmmm, perhaps an NND as above with the lim being, "only if a 1d6
RKA could penetrate" without the actual RKA. I'd actually tend to make
that last part of the NND defense conditions, myself.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."


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>> The drug is whatever collection of powers and modifiers that may be
>> appropriate. The NND defense is appropriate Life Support or Immunity to
>> the chemical. This incarnation of the drug would get a -1/2 to -1
>> limitation "base attack must do Body damage"; the actual bonus should be
>> adjudicated by the GM based on the size of the base attack and average
>> defenses for the campaign. The same chemical with a different delivery
>> mechanism may receive other limitations instead.
>
> Hmmm, perhaps an NND as above with the lim being, "only if a 1d6
>RKA could penetrate" without the actual RKA. I'd actually tend to make
>that last part of the NND defense conditions, myself.


You can make the NND defense 6pt of Resistant Def. or 5 which ever you feel
fit the attack best.

Michael
Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist recently updated web site...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm

"You have never lived until you have almost died.
And for those who fight for it,
life has a flavor the protected never know"
- anonymous

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 02:36:50 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Master Ambiguity List
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> > > Surely you're not saying that I could just buy 5" of flight in your
> > > campaign, and be able to move at the speed of light just based on SFX?
> >
> > Yes I am. However, your average speed would be a lot less as
> > you'd have to continually stop. You are limited to that 5" per phase of
> > action -- make up a SFX reason.
>
> How much damage do you do on a move through?

Str + velocity/5. Is this a trick question?


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 04:26:56 -0600 (CST)
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From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net>
Subject: Re: Player-bought supplements
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>Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 02:16:04 -0600 (CST)
>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
>Cc: champ-l@omg.org
>Subject: Re: Player-bought supplements
>Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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>
>
>> I have a simple ruling I made in all of the games I run that solves the
>> problem quite efficiently: If the GM does not own it, the players may use
>> NOTHING from it.
>
> This is a sad reaction. What a wonderful way to encourage fellow
>gamers to get more into a system.
>
> Seems a case of "GM on a power trip -- and no player is going to
>have a say in how this campaign is run.
>
>
> -Tim Gilberg
>
> -"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

I have to agree with Tim's comments. In my own game, my players are
always more than willing to loan me their books so I can catch up and get
informed with the various abilities that their charcter might be using that
I would otherwise be uninformed about.

-Dan Wojcik


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 03:08:13 -0800
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
Subject: Re: Player-bought supplements
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David Stallard wrote:
>
> I think the answer to this is "stop being a wimp", but here goes anyway:
>
> One of my players owns Ninja Hero...I don't have it and am not really
> interested in getting it, since I'm not interested in martial arts to that
> level of detail. Well, this player routinely uses maneuvers from it, even
> though I'm not familiar with them.
<....>
> What would you do? Completely outlaw NH and make him convert his special
> maneuvers into those in the BBB? Continue to use NH on a rule-by-rule
> basis, without knowing those rules in advance? Sit down and read the darn
> book so that the player can get his money's worth out of it?

In my opinion, you - as GM - have really only two choices. 1)Say
"No" to any rules, powers, etc. that you are unfamiliar with. Actually,
that's a rule you should probably alwaysd follow.... 2)Take some time
and sit down and read the pertinent sections of your player's book.
There should be a relatively limited portion of the book that would give
you all the information you need about the maneuvers and whatnot that
your player wants to use. Then decide for yourself what exactly you do
and don't like and tell your player what is and is not allowable in your
campaign.

--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah

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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 06:55:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Extra limbs, was Re: VPP: Shapeshifting
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On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, Lizard wrote:

> All other things
> being equal, a four-armed martial artist ought to be able to kick the
> tar out of a two armed martial artist, but if their point values are
> equal, this won't happen.

Obviously, you've never seen the Johnny Cage vs Goro fight from "Mortal
Kombat". The two armed fighter does kick the tar out of a four-armed
fighter quite nicely. ^_^

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 04:10:03 -0800
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net>
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Player-bought supplements
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Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

> This is a sad reaction. What a wonderful way to encourage fellow
> gamers to get more into a system.
>
> Seems a case of "GM on a power trip -- and no player is going to
> have a say in how this campaign is run.

There are points where a GM must draw the line. The administration fo the
rules and the determining of what mechanics are used definately fall into the
perview of the GM. This does not preclude the players having a say in how the
campaign is run as a whole at all. It simply saves the sanity of the GM.

Bottom line: The players must not dictate to the GM what is used and what is
not used. That is not their place. It is the GM that sets the benchmarks and
power levels, it is the GM who determines the mechanics that are used, and it is
the GM who assumes most of the workload of administrating a campaign. The
mechanics that are used are based on the final say-so of the GM.

I chose the cited approach to simply keep my sanity as a GM, not to enforce
tyranny. Every single one of my players in the past have had the right to ask
questions and make suggestions, and to contribute to the campaign in a fair
manner. What they never had the right to is railroad the other players and the
GM.

In my campaigns, the BBB and most of the major rules supplements are used.
But rulings have to be made on all of them. House Rules must be constructed from
the very beginning. Just to make certain everything is fair and decently
balanced. It would have been foolish, for example, to allow a player unrestricted
access to a supplement with the ramifacations that Ultimate Mentalist had,
without having a chance to digest it and make rulings on the contents would have
been foolish to the extreme.

Remember: Fairness extends both ways. The GM must be treated fairly too.
Allowed to do their job.

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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 04:49:51 -0800
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Ambiguity List addition: Throwing Damage, Object Damage.
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 04:17 PM 3/23/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "R" == Rook <rook@infinex.com> writes:
>
>R> If it is just Str, explain why a steel guirder (sp?) does the same
>R> damage as a fist. :)
>
>The girder does not do more damage, per se. And as Tim pointed out, it
>could actually do less. What it gives you is a small Area of Effect Cone
>or Circle.

Don't forget that a girder can also give the brick a limited amount of
Stretching (say, up to 5", depending on the girder) for purposes of hitting.
---
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 04:52:55 -0800
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Ambiguity List addition: Throwing Damage, Object Damage.
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At 04:16 PM 3/23/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>
>BG> A related one: how much damage is done when something heavy (piano,
>BG> safe, auto, giant anvil) just falls on you?
>
>As much as the piano, safe, auto, or giant anvil takes due to falling
>velocity when it hits the ground, probably with the same max DCs = DEF +
>BODY.

While certainly reasonable on the face of it, I have to wonder about a
piano that does only 5d6 of damage to someone after falling from a height
of 5" (10m, =33').
A possibility to allow for damage from sheer mass is to do as much as
you just said, but also institute a minimum amount of damage equal to the
STR that would be needed to lift the thing.
---
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 05:10:44 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
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At 03:50 PM 3/23/1998 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:
>> I think you're looking at this wrongly.... the way ISM has been
>> suggested (and not originally by me, though I was the first in the current
>> discussion to bring it up) is that the above example would still roll 6d6,
>> but add +1 STUN per die. So the average roll of a 6d6 Normal attack with
>> +1 STUN would be 27.
>> Maybe if its name was changed to Increased Stun Factor?
>
>Normal attacks don't use a stun multiplier, so ISM has no meaning.

Which is precisely *why* I suggested the name change (a point that I
*thought* was fairly obvious).

>Trying to give it a meaning in the fashion described strikes me as a
>solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Since an EB may be defined as
>"does BODY' or "does no BODY" with no difference in cost, it seems
>straightforward that part of an EB can do BODY and part not, again at
>normal point cost.

<Soapbox>
I happen to consider Energy Blast doing no BODY for no modifier a silly
rules crock. I mean, at no modifier, my EB does no Knockback, and cannot
affect vehicles, automatons, foci, Entangles, walls, or any other inanimate
objects. And what's the supposedly balancing factor? I can't accidentally
hurt innocent bystanders, or do damage to property I don't want to damage.
And just how often are innocent bystanders going to be standing around
just waiting to get hurt in a superhero fight? How often does someone in
reality notice people shooting at each other, and just stand around to
watch? For myself, I'm going to find the nearest brick wall and get behind
it, and then make myself as small of a target as I can.
I'm sorry, but this "balance" just doesn't wash with me. If "No
Knockback" is a Limitation worth -1/4 (and hey, I can't accidentally knock
a villain back into the crowd, or into property I don't want to damage),
then "No BODY" should certainly be a -1/2 Limitation.
</Soapbox>

>50 10D6 EB, 8D6 does BODY, 2D6 does no BODY.
>
>I would not permit
>
>50 10D6 EB, 2D6 does BODY, 8D6 does no BODY,
>
>without a really good explanation, but the former example increases the
>STUN/BODY ratio by 7 points, which is close to +1 per die.

The above tirade aside, you are quite correct, mechanically speaking.

>In view of this, I see no reason to develop house rules that contradict
>one of the few clear-cut prohibiitions in the BBB. The Hero guys do this
>so rarely that I tend to pay attention when they do.

It's not a house rule; it's a suggestion for an official rule.

>As for EuroHero, or whereever this idea first appeared, I would dismiss
>it at a misprint, and treat the EB as AP, which will probably have a very
>similar effect in reasonable defense ranges.

It *was* a misprint, or more accurately an error on the part of the
author because he didn't quite understand the Hero System. More recently,
though (I think it was about 4 years ago), someone took note of that and
came up with the idea for how ISM (which I'm suggesting be called Increased
Stun Factor) could be applied to Normal attacks.
---
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 05:13:01 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Master Ambiguity List
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At 07:52 PM 3/23/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>> > Um, no multiples necessary. Just make SFX to turn to light at
>> >move up to 5". The actual movement is quite FTL.
>>
>> Surely you're not saying that I could just buy 5" of flight in your
>> campaign, and be able to move at the speed of light just based on SFX?
>
> Yes I am. However, your average speed would be a lot less as
>you'd have to continually stop. You are limited to that 5" per phase of
>action -- make up a SFX reason.

I think that's a long ways from the (original) question as asked....
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 05:15:22 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: New server?
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At 06:55 PM 3/23/1998 -0600, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>I wonder why it is that since the switch to the new server (if that's what
>caused the new Welcome message to be generated), some of the messages
>coming from the list...notably those posted by Rat, but not only his...are
>no longer being filtered into the Hero box of my email? These are not
>off-list personal responses to me, in fact mainly they follow threads I've
>ignored.
>
>Anyone else experienced this in the past day or two?

I don't use a filter on the Hero material from this list. However
(speaking as a fellow Eudora Pro user), check what string your filter
checks on. If it's watching for "champ-l@omg.org" then your problem is
that the new server uses a different address.
---
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 05:24:09 -0800
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
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At 08:45 PM 3/23/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes:
>
>RAW> 60 6D6 EB NND, defense is to make a PRE roll. AIs and
>RAW> any "perfectly logical" aliens are immune by SFX.
>
>This one is easy, because you are using the wrong basic power.
>
>6D6 Ego Attack, No Range, Visible to Sight group. Whether or not the
>immunity of AIs and other "perfectly logical" beings is worth a limitation
>depends on how common they are in the campaign.

I definitely have to side with Robert on this one. Ego Attack is a
massively different Power from what he said. For one thing it works on ECV
rather than OCV/DCV. For another it's an attack vs EGO and not vs PRE.

>RAW> 60 3D6 EB NND Continuous: stopped by breaking entangle
>RAW> Defenses: 10 pts Life Support or 10 PD Rigid Armor or 45 STR
>RAW> 33 5D6 Entangle Linked to EB.
>
>Again, you are working with the wrong base power. Try "Grab and Squeeze"
>or "Choke Hold".

Which costs how much? I find neither of these in the list of Powers.

>RAW> I already gave the Dr. Geriatric example, which you ignored, as a case
>RAW> where supra-minimum levels were required for game-balance reasons.
>
>RAW> 60 6D6 EB NND Defenses is LS:Aging
>
>Wow! three strikes for using the wrong power. Try a Transformation attack
>instead (which would have Power Defense as the appropriate defense) with a
>- -0 SFX limitation that those few characters with Life Support vs. Aging are
>immune to the attack.

Again, you're insisting on a different power and ignoring the dynamic of
how the power operates. A Transformation makes a change to a character, or
it doesn't, and is recovered all at once (either with time or from a
specific counteraction), while the proposed Power weakens the target in a
way that is recovered gradually.
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 05:29:17 -0800
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
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At 09:20 PM 3/23/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>AJ> Whether or not a real tranquilizer dart should do body, a 'comic-book'
>AJ> dart probably shouldn't....
>
>Then describe the special effect of a "comic book" dart if it is different
>from the real thing that is used, for instance, to penetrate the hide of a
>rhinocerous (which I would hazard is around 3rPD).

I think the problem is that people are having a hard time seeing these
darts doing enough damage to a person to count as 1 BODY. Clearly they can
get through tough hide and other moderate amounts of armor, but if I got
hit three times should I really be counted as Dying?
And don't forget that not all tranquilizer darts are the big honkin'
things they shoot at rhinos. Some that I've seen myself are no bigger than
the last two segments of your little finger. I just can't see someone
being killed by those little things except in truly massive numbers, unless
some kind of drug or poison is also involved (and then it's really the drug
or poison doing the work, not the dart).
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 05:33:46 -0800
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
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At 09:57 PM 3/23/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "RA" == Ron Abitz <ronald@centraltx.net> writes:
>
>RAW> 60 3D6 EB NND Continuous: stopped by breaking entangle
>RAW> Defenses: 10 pts Life Support or 10 PD Rigid Armor or 45 STR
>RAW> 33 5D6 Entangle Linked to EB.
>
>>> Again, you are working with the wrong base power. Try "Grab and Squeeze"
>>> or "Choke Hold".
>
>RA> How is a Entange going to "Grab squeeze" or "choke hold"
>
>Replace that whole construct, the NND and the Entangle, with a Grab and
>Squeeze maneuver or a Choke Hold maneuver. The whole construct is a hack;
>the Entangle is there to simulate the holding aspect of a choke hold, while
>the NND is there to simulate the choking aspect of a choke hold. That
>should be a big clue that there is a better way of doing it.
>
>Grab and Squeeze does not do NND damage, but it is your basic "constrict"
>maneuver. And it costs you no more than the points you have already spent
>on Strength.

So you're saying that Robert's character Anaconda should buy those
snakes as Followers?
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 05:35:59 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Object Damage.
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At 02:54 PM 3/23/1998 -0800, Jim Dickinson wrote:
>At 05:19 AM 3/23/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>At 10:58 PM 3/22/1998 -0800, Rook wrote:
>>>Here's one for the list of unclear things. Define how much damage is
>>>done from throwing or hitting with a blunt object in a clear manner.
>>> If it is just Str, explain why a steel guirder (sp?) does the same
>>>damage as a fist. :)
>>
>> A related one: how much damage is done when something heavy (piano,
>>safe, auto, giant anvil) just falls on you?
>
>I would imagine it would do DEF+BOD in D6 up to the velocity in Inches it
>is moving. This is just like being knocked back into a wall...you take the
>DEF+BOD of the wall, or your velocity in inches as damage. Depending on
>the situation, I might rule as a GM to add or subtract dice depending on
>the kind of surface the unlucky victim is presently standing on. For
>instance, if our hero is perched on a flagpole sticking out from the side
>of a building, when he gets whacked from above by a falling piano, I'd rule
>that he take less damage because the pole would break away, and they'd all
>be falling together. Now, when the hero hits the ground, if is being
>sandwiched between the piano and the asphalt, well, that might merit some
>extra dice because he would "B-Flat" MAJOR.
>
>(sorry couldn't resist)

Well, the problem with the first part is that it isn't really like being
knocked back into a wall; it's more like the wall being knocked back into
*you.* And all things considered I think I'd rather run into a wall than
vice versa.
(Oh, and good pun! And definitely "A Natural" one.)
---
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 05:42:34 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Player-bought supplements
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At 02:34 PM 3/23/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>I think the answer to this is "stop being a wimp", but here goes anyway:
>
>One of my players owns Ninja Hero...I don't have it and am not really
>interested in getting it, since I'm not interested in martial arts to that
>level of detail. Well, this player routinely uses maneuvers from it, even
>though I'm not familiar with them. This has been irritating, but I've let
>it slide. Well, in our last session, he suddenly decided to tell me about
>some Acrobatics rule that is in NH but not the BBB...I told him he couldn't
>use it, since I don't want to use rules that I haven't had a chance to look
>over. Obviously, one problem is that I'm being inconsistent...I allowed
>some rules from NH but not others. The second "problem" is that I don't
>have a whole lot of interest in sitting down and reading NH all the way
>through, just so this player can take advantage of the nifty things
>therein.
>
>What would you do? Completely outlaw NH and make him convert his special
>maneuvers into those in the BBB? Continue to use NH on a rule-by-rule
>basis, without knowing those rules in advance? Sit down and read the darn
>book so that the player can get his money's worth out of it?
>
>I've had this same problem with other games (all those "Complete <class>"
>books from That Other Game)... My instinct says to say "No, we're not
>using it, you should have checked before you wasted your money on that
>book", but its harder to do that since some of the book is already being
>used.

Speaking for myself only, I'd ask to borrow the book for a couple of
weeks to review any rules he wanted to use. He should definitely specify
which rules he wanted to use, and it should be clear that the rules being
allowed must affect character construction (like Analyze Style and dim mak)
and not be purely combat options (like combination attacks).
I also make a blanket rule that anything not in the HSR, or in there but
with a warning sign, must be approved by me ahead of time. Some things I
give blanket approval for (such as Lightning Reflexes or Style
Disadvantage), while others I'd have to evaluate on a case-by-case basis.
What I suggest to you is to tell the player to not buy anything from
Ninja Hero for his character without letting you thoroughly review,
evaluate, and consider the rule first.
---
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 05:49:34 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Player-bought supplements
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At 05:04 PM 3/23/1998 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>> I have a simple ruling I made in all of the games I run that solves the
>>problem quite efficiently: If the GM does not own it, the players may use
>>NOTHING from it.
>
>Heh heh! What a great, sinister plot to get the players to buy you game
>suppliments!

There's an idea that should make Steve happy.
"Look, I'm not really interested in spending my money on a book that I'm
not going to use all that much. On the other hand, if you want to buy it
*for me..."
Unfortunately, I don't think it'd help the GM whose interest in the book
is so small that he's not even much interested in reading through it.
---
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 05:58:59 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
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At 03:01 PM 3/23/1998 EST, GoldRushG wrote:
><< how about a well-known and prominent superheroine with two completely
>separate Secret Identities, of whom one is a famous model and the other a
>prominent off-Broadway actress? >>
>
> Why would a woman who is a famous model and a famous actress *not* want her
>fame from each career to benefit the other? That seems kind of silly, IMO.
>Beingt "Sally Stronglegs" 3 nights a week and "Heather Headstrong" 4 nights a
>week, with fans of niether knowing about the other "identity" seems a bit
>limiting.

I find it an interesting situation as well... The reason given (this is
the Solitaire update from Champions Universe BTW) is that her superheroing
teammates know about her modeling identity, but she'd be too nervous and
embarrassed if they ever saw her on stage knowing it was her. (Something
about the anonymity of hiding behind a character, a not uncommon phenomenon
among performers.)

> And maintaining two appearances would need to be considered, too.

Three, really: superheroine Solitaire, model Elaine King, and actress
Rowena Page.

> Further, if she's famous, then I think Secret Id is less applicable than,
>say, Public ID.

Well, as you note, she maintains a different appearance for each, and
has three separate lives. Only her teammates (and one of her Hunters) know
of the Elaine King persona, and she does the Rowena Page thing all on her own.
Yeah, it's complicated. I'm sure she'd be learning that before long.
But hey, that's why Secret Identities are Disadvantages, right?
---
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 06:21:59 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: VPP: More Questions
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At 10:12 PM 3/23/1998 -0600, Sakura wrote:
>
>OK...I have a couple questions on how to increase (or perhaps limit) the
>flexibility of Variable Power Pools.
>
>Normally, if you have X points in your pool, you can have X Real Points
>worth of powers with no more than X active points each.
>
>What if I wanted to have X active points worth of powers, but they were
>limited to 1/2 X Active Points? Hmm...I suppose I could buy two separate
>pools, but I think having two 20 point pools is less versatile than having
>1 40 point pool, even though they'd cost the same amount.
>
>My second question is the reverse of the first one: What if I wanted to
>have a 60 pt pool that could only have 30 Real Points of powers in it?
>What would the limitation be?

I'd give either of these a -1/2 Limitation to the Pool.
---
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 06:26:11 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: VPP: Shapeshifting
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At 07:50 PM 3/23/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> How about applying "Must Shapeshift to Change VPP (-1/4)" as a
limitation on
>> the VPP? Shapeshifting takes a 1/2 phase, so the player will be a lot less
>> willing to use it.
>
> Shapeshifting takes a half phase? Coulda fooled me.

"A character may freely switch his for as often as desired; switching
shapes takes a half Phase." (HSR, page 83, Shape Shift, second paragraph,
first sentence.)
---
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Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:28:42 -0000
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

On 3/24/98 3:40 AM Robert A. West (robtwest@erols.com) Said:

>Death Knight can summon a phantasmal blade that attacks whom he commands.
>This blade is perfectly visible, even to cameras, but has no substance,
>so it passes through armor, force fields and the like. If the target can
>keep his mind concentrated enough to completely ignore the blade, he is
>safe and will suffer no effects, but even a moment's waver in
>concentration and he will suffer all the pain of being sliced by a sword.
>
>60 6D6 EB NND, defense is to make a PRE roll. AIs and
> any "perfectly logical" aliens are immune by SFX.

The problem here is that if I have a 50 rPD, but fail my PRE roll, I take
damage, since failing my PRE Roll means I "suffer all the pain of being
sliced by a sword". I should suffer exactly not at all with a 50 rPD.

I would do this as:
60 2d6 HKA, AP, BoECV, STR does not Add,
Sfx - Phantasmal Blade

The special effects are the same, but here it is modelled as being
resisted better with a higher EGO, and allowing that EGO to reduce the
damage (maybe I did well ignoring it as it passed through my chest, but
faltered slightly when it got to my vitals - at that point I wavered and
the damage started becoming real). Also, since the blade looks real, and
others are damaged by it "Perfectly Logical" aliens & AI's should also be
damaged by it; that is only logical.

>
>Constrictor has snakes who attack people by suffocation. Only people who
>do not need to breathe, who are encased in heavy rigid armor that
>prevents construction or who are so strong as to be able to shrug off the
>attack. Once commenced, the attack only ends when the victim goes
>unconscious or the snake is destroyed.
>
>60 3D6 EB NND Continuous: stopped by breaking entangle
> Defenses: 10 pts Life Support or 10 PD Rigid Armor or 45 STR
>33 5D6 Entangle Linked to EB.

This is an RKA, Continuous, NND Vs. Life support, Requires a Successful
Grab and Hold.
Stretching, Indirect should be used to perform the Grab (you may
want/need some Sfx limits on the stretching, such as "Can only do what a
normal snake could do").

>I already gave the Dr. Geriatric example, which you ignored, as a case
>where supra-minimum levels were required for game-balance reasons.
>
>60 6D6 EB NND Defenses is LS:Aging
>
>is a fine NND that fits your rules, but in most campaigns, LS:Aging is
>just not common enough. After discussion, the following was arrived at.
>
>60 6D6 EB NND Defenses are any of: LS:Aging, 10 Power Def,
> 5 hardened Power Defense.
>
I missed the SFx write-up of this but it sounds like what you want is an
attack that damages you making you old, then snapping you back to your
current age. If this is so, then from a SFx standpoint, the first
construct is all that is needed. (I have no idea why Power Defense should
stop this attack, but Power Def is a tochy subject anyhow)

You say LS:Aging may not be common enough in your campaign, but remember
that all nonliving items that you may wish to damage with this
effectively have LS:Aging. Thus you couldn't use it to reduce a stone
wall to rubble by erosion (that a CE) though a wooden door would be so
effected (wood rots and warps with age). It may be that your GM didn't
consider this. Try putting it in an Aging Multipower with a CE to effect
the Nonliving Stuff, and maybe a transform if you want to be able to
leave the target as a withered old crone.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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Subject: Re: Player-bought supplements
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:38:48 -0000
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
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>>> I have a simple ruling I made in all of the games I run that solves the
>>> problem quite efficiently: If the GM does not own it, the players may use
>>> NOTHING from it.

I guess I use this rule too, but seeing as how I have everything Post
4th-edition... :)

Seriously, this seems a bit on the Ego-Trip-I-Am-GM-Call-Me-GOD side.


David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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Subject: Re: VPP: Shapeshifting
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:48:54 -0000
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
cc: "Hero Games" <champ-l@omg.org>
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On 3/24/98 1:49 AM Tim R. Gilberg (trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu) Said:

>> How about applying "Must Shapeshift to Change VPP (-1/4)" as a limitation on
>> the VPP? Shapeshifting takes a 1/2 phase, so the player will be a lot less
>> willing to use it.
>
> Shapeshifting takes a half phase? Coulda fooled me.

According to the BBB writeup of the power Shape Shift it does. Looks like
someone else may have fooled you.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:09:45 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: EVIL Campaign Revisited
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On Tue, 24 Mar 1998, Matt Korth wrote:

> > It's a fun campaign world, and will definitely be a fun campaign. I
> > apologize for the inconvenience to those who wish to run the campaign
> > elsewhere, please e-mail me again, and I'll get the materials and
> > subscription to you. With enough interest, I'll make a web site.
>
> *Did* you get enough interest to make a web site? :) Damn, I *really*
> wish I'd had the proper inspiration to make a character...

Yes, one should be ready within the next two weeks. Part of the problem is
putting a "GM's lock" on certain things like character sheets. I certainly
don't want *my* villains getting the lowdown on superhero's vitals, and
I'm sure the other GMs would appreciate it too.

My EVIL campaign just finished its 10th session on Sunday. The group
finally took down Atlanta's most public champion (who makes a TV show
about his exploits). They nabbed Strongman right off the set, although it
took 4 supervillains and 8 ninth-ring agents working in concert to do it.
The session's best quotation: (from Ferrik, one of the Evil Twins, to his
sister in a singsong voice) "Oh, sister, I need some of your choke-holdy
goodness over here!!" "Coming, dear brother!"

It will be interesting to see the repercussions next issue...

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 07:10:05 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Extra limbs, was Re: VPP: Shapeshifting
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At 06:55 AM 3/24/1998 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, Lizard wrote:
>
>> All other things
>> being equal, a four-armed martial artist ought to be able to kick the
>> tar out of a two armed martial artist, but if their point values are
>> equal, this won't happen.
>
>Obviously, you've never seen the Johnny Cage vs Goro fight from "Mortal
>Kombat". The two armed fighter does kick the tar out of a four-armed
>fighter quite nicely. ^_^

I haven't seen the film, so I don't know for sure, but I'm not convinced
that the other qualification ("All other things being equal") applies here.
;-]
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:14:36 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Master Ambiguity List
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On Tue, 24 Mar 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

>
> > > > Surely you're not saying that I could just buy 5" of flight in your
> > > > campaign, and be able to move at the speed of light just based on SFX?
> > >
> > > Yes I am. However, your average speed would be a lot less as
> > > you'd have to continually stop. You are limited to that 5" per phase of
> > > action -- make up a SFX reason.
> >
> > How much damage do you do on a move through?
>
> Str + velocity/5. Is this a trick question?

Str + c/5?

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X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 10:33:55 -0500
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@Concentric.net>
Subject: Re: New server?
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At 05:15 AM 3/24/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> I don't use a filter on the Hero material from this list. However
>(speaking as a fellow Eudora Pro user), check what string your filter
>checks on. If it's watching for "champ-l@omg.org" then your problem is
>that the new server uses a different address.


We know how to set a filter. We're just waiting for everybody
to make up their mind what the target string is going to be.
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================

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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 10:39:57 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: VPP: Shapeshifting
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by "Robert A. West"
>It is important, IMHO, to prohibit gratuitous limitations in a VPP. For
example, if the VPP allows a change of powers in combat-relevant time,
then a limitation "Powers only work in daylight" is generally gratuitous,
since when dusk comes, the character can simply switch to a form that has
powers "only at night." Bah! Neither is worth a limitation, because the
limitation will never matter.<

I noticed the ability to abuse limitations when someone on this list posted
the example "Cosmic Dad", who had a power that was Usable Only on his
Children (-1). It struck me that you could use this limitation for all
attacks, and simply change it to whoever you want to attack.

>>I am also strict about things like Charges or Jammed, which can be very
abusive. If a power is defined in a VPP with the jammed limitation, or
if it is defined with Charges and those charges are used up, the real
points involved may not be reallocated for the rest of the day. You
could use some other time, based on SFX, such as getting back to the
Mothership in order to regenerate for 8 hours.<<

With this shapeshifter, Charges and Jammed don't make any sense so I
wouldn't allow them anyway.

>>Things to be ware of are special defenses: Flash, Mental, Power, since
these can be whipped out on an as-needed basis. Also be careful of
specially-designed senses: Detect Dr. Destroyer, N-Ray, +30 PER is a good
example of an abuse.<<

Thanks for the warnings, but I don't think I'd allow any of those special
defenses or senses with this particular character (who essentially just
changes parts of his body, like hands into hammers or spikes, wings
sprouting from back, etc).

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:08:23 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Player-bought supplements
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> Speaking for myself only, I'd ask to borrow the book for a couple of
weeks to review any rules he wanted to use. He should definitely specify
which rules he wanted to use, and it should be clear that the rules being
allowed must affect character construction (like Analyze Style and dim mak)
and not be purely combat options (like combination attacks).<

What's been eating me about using this approach is that, unless I have read
the entire book, I might be unaware of something that keeps the selected
rule in check. Maybe I'm being a little paranoid here? In other words, if
I rely on the players to show me rules they want, then they are only going
to show me rules that benefit their characters. There may be other
"counterpoint" rules that should come along with the selected rule.

> What I suggest to you is to tell the player to not buy anything from
Ninja Hero for his character without letting you thoroughly review,
evaluate, and consider the rule first.<

Yes, this is what I will do for any such book, but I didn't do it soon
enough...he already had some NH stuff. Anyway, I'm also going to adopt the
philosophy that "if we're in the middle of a session and you show me some
new rule, the answer will always be NO. Show it to me offline and we'll
decide."

One thing that's been frustrating for me is that one of my players is an
extreme (that word is too subtle) rationalist, and will carry on at great
lengths about why this should or shouldn't be allowed (his favorite phrase:
"It's just stupid!"). Both players (yep, small group) don't seem to take
GM word as law, ever...I decree that something will be handled in such a
way, and I get bombarded with shaking heads, looks of disbelief, and
(usually irrational) reasons why that's the wrong decision. I find that
somewhat arrogant on the part of my players, seeing as I'm the only one
willing to read the rules in the first place...they are constantly trying
to catch me being inconsistent: "why can I do X1 now but you wouldn't allow
me to do X2 earlier?" Any advice for handling such a group? I know a lot
of people on this list would say just stop playing with those people, but
given the choice of playing with them or not playing at all, I'll find some
way to deal with them. From their reaction, it would seem that I'm some
horrible, tyrannical GM, but from what I've seen on this list, I'm not that
different from everyone else. Not to sound cocky, but I think the majority
of the problem lies with the players... Every rules decision seems to be a
thorny issue with them, especially if it's not in favor of the PCs.
<whine mode off>

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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 10:53:38 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: VPP: Shapeshifting
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David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> writes:
>
Robert West: >
>>Things to be ware of are special defenses: Flash, Mental, Power, since
> these can be whipped out on an as-needed basis. Also be careful of
> specially-designed senses: Detect Dr. Destroyer, N-Ray, +30 PER is a good
> example of an abuse.<<
>
> Thanks for the warnings, but I don't think I'd allow any of those special
> defenses or senses with this particular character (who essentially just
> changes parts of his body, like hands into hammers or spikes, wings
> sprouting from back, etc).

Senses and special defenses can't be placed in a power pool anyway by the rules.
(Though I can see some justification for different vision types, such as IR or UV,
defined as altering the structure of the eyes.)

Curt Hicks


Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:01:31 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: New Powers / Wild Cards
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Hi all,

I posted a couple weeks back about a new campaign I'm going to be
playing in. The campaign premise is that the characters will be the
first people with 'powers', at least as far as they know. I even
stole Robert West's 'emerging powers' term to describe the game.

The game is supposed to eventually evolve into a classic four-color
superhero game. However, at least for the initial sessions, there
will not be any powered opposition. I'm hoping somebody has clever
ideas for the 'bad guys', other than the obvious: organized crime,
street gangs, biker gangs.

Curt Hicks

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:35:57 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Player-bought supplements
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At 11:08 AM 3/24/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade
>> Speaking for myself only, I'd ask to borrow the book for a couple of
>weeks to review any rules he wanted to use. He should definitely specify
>which rules he wanted to use, and it should be clear that the rules being
>allowed must affect character construction (like Analyze Style and dim mak)
>and not be purely combat options (like combination attacks).<
>
>What's been eating me about using this approach is that, unless I have read
>the entire book, I might be unaware of something that keeps the selected
>rule in check. Maybe I'm being a little paranoid here? In other words, if
>I rely on the players to show me rules they want, then they are only going
>to show me rules that benefit their characters. There may be other
>"counterpoint" rules that should come along with the selected rule.

That's why I'd want to borrow the book for a period of time, and not
just long enough to read the directly pertinent sections.
Yeah, you're being a little paranoid, but it's not unwarranted,
especially if the player has done something abusive in the past.

>> What I suggest to you is to tell the player to not buy anything from
>Ninja Hero for his character without letting you thoroughly review,
>evaluate, and consider the rule first.<
>
>Yes, this is what I will do for any such book, but I didn't do it soon
>enough...he already had some NH stuff. Anyway, I'm also going to adopt the
>philosophy that "if we're in the middle of a session and you show me some
>new rule, the answer will always be NO. Show it to me offline and we'll
>decide."

Good policy IMO.

>One thing that's been frustrating for me is that one of my players is an
>extreme (that word is too subtle) rationalist, and will carry on at great
>lengths about why this should or shouldn't be allowed (his favorite phrase:
>"It's just stupid!"). Both players (yep, small group) don't seem to take
>GM word as law, ever...I decree that something will be handled in such a
>way, and I get bombarded with shaking heads, looks of disbelief, and
>(usually irrational) reasons why that's the wrong decision. I find that
>somewhat arrogant on the part of my players, seeing as I'm the only one
>willing to read the rules in the first place...they are constantly trying
>to catch me being inconsistent: "why can I do X1 now but you wouldn't allow
>me to do X2 earlier?" Any advice for handling such a group? I know a lot
>of people on this list would say just stop playing with those people, but
>given the choice of playing with them or not playing at all, I'll find some
>way to deal with them. From their reaction, it would seem that I'm some
>horrible, tyrannical GM, but from what I've seen on this list, I'm not that
>different from everyone else. Not to sound cocky, but I think the majority
>of the problem lies with the players... Every rules decision seems to be a
>thorny issue with them, especially if it's not in favor of the PCs.
><whine mode off>

Aren't there a couple dozen places in the HSR where it states outright
that the GM's word is law?
Try explaining to them (1) that this is supposed to be a game which
simulates a cinematic/comic book feel and not real life; (2) how things
work in real life isn't necessarily going to be how they work in your
world; (3) since you're the GM, it's your world and they, as players, don't
necessarily know how it works and what's the right decision for it; and (4)
just because something doesn't make sense doesn't make it untrue (otherwise
we wouldn't be celebrating Oktoberfest every September).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:40:25 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: VPP: Shapeshifting
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At 10:39 AM 3/24/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by "Robert A. West"
>>It is important, IMHO, to prohibit gratuitous limitations in a VPP. For
>example, if the VPP allows a change of powers in combat-relevant time,
>then a limitation "Powers only work in daylight" is generally gratuitous,
>since when dusk comes, the character can simply switch to a form that has
>powers "only at night." Bah! Neither is worth a limitation, because the
>limitation will never matter.<
>
>I noticed the ability to abuse limitations when someone on this list posted
>the example "Cosmic Dad", who had a power that was Usable Only on his
>Children (-1). It struck me that you could use this limitation for all
>attacks, and simply change it to whoever you want to attack.

Conditional modifiers on VPP Powers are always abusive unless:
(1) the Conditional Modifier always applies to every Power, and thus is
applied to the Control Cost; or
(2) neither the player nor the character knows whether the Condition
will be met when the Power is used.

>>>Things to be ware of are special defenses: Flash, Mental, Power, since
>these can be whipped out on an as-needed basis. Also be careful of
>specially-designed senses: Detect Dr. Destroyer, N-Ray, +30 PER is a good
>example of an abuse.<<
>
>Thanks for the warnings, but I don't think I'd allow any of those special
>defenses or senses with this particular character (who essentially just
>changes parts of his body, like hands into hammers or spikes, wings
>sprouting from back, etc).

I could see this character getting Flash Defense with a modification to
the eyes or ears (for Sight and Hearing FD respectively). But that's a
call of the GM who knokws the specifics and dynamics of the character.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:10:09 -0500 (EST)
From: William K Bushway <wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: New Powers / Wild Cards
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On Tue, 24 Mar 1998, Curt Hicks wrote:

> The game is supposed to eventually evolve into a classic four-color
> superhero game. However, at least for the initial sessions, there
> will not be any powered opposition. I'm hoping somebody has clever
> ideas for the 'bad guys', other than the obvious: organized crime,
> street gangs, biker gangs.

Depending on how you want the government portrayed, you could send
the FBI of the CDC (Centers for Disease Control) after them, in hopes of
learning about their powers and their origins. If one of the heroes is a
mentalist, you could even bring in NIMH (National Institutes for Mental
Health).

If the government tries to develop a friendly relationship with
the new supers, they may call on them to handle "unusual" threats, such as
international terrorists. If they do well, the government may even
"sponsor" them, giving them federal agent powers, and so forth.

You could send a "mad scientist" after them, intent on gaining
their powers for himself. (If he's successful, you now have the world's
first "super villain.")

I tend to think the less overt threats have the most potential for
role-playing. Have the characters hounded by reporters and paparazzi
wherever they show up, getting in the characters' way. Maybe a TV
reporter could make it his personal crusade to discover the heroes' secret
identities.

William K. Bushway, wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu
http://Mason.GMU.edu/~wbushway/index.html
"I'm betting that I'm just abnormal enough to survive."
-The Tick, The Tick Vs.The Breadmaster

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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 98 18:26:26
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Priority: Normal
Subject: Re: VPP: Shapeshifting
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On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:39:25 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:

>David Stallard wrote:
>>
>> My head is spinning with all the discussion about how much you can buy with
>> your VPP. The latest I've seen on the list is that your point pool is used
>> for the REAL cost of the powers, so you can actually have a lot more at
>> once than it looks like at first glance, by slapping limitations on
>> everything.
>
>As always, all that follows is IMHO, but I think it is pretty sound.
>
>Well, were you, as GM, really enforcing those limitations?
>
>It is important, IMHO, to prohibit gratuitous limitations in a VPP. For
>example, if the VPP allows a change of powers in combat-relevant time,
>then a limitation "Powers only work in daylight" is generally gratuitous,
>since when dusk comes, the character can simply switch to a form that has
>powers "only at night." Bah! Neither is worth a limitation, because the
>limitation will never matter.
>
>OTOH, if the VPP required *days* to change, then the limitation would be
>relevant.
>
>I am also strict about things like Charges or Jammed, which can be very
>abusive. If a power is defined in a VPP with the jammed limitation, or
>if it is defined with Charges and those charges are used up, the real
>points involved may not be reallocated for the rest of the day. You
>could use some other time, based on SFX, such as getting back to the
>Mothership in order to regenerate for 8 hours.
>
> Ex: Abuseman has a 60 pt cosmic VPP (+2 to control cost, so
> the real cost is 180 points). He creates a 4D6 RKA with just
> one charge(-2) for 20 real points puts the remaining 40 pts
> into a 20/20 Force Field with one continuing charge(day,-0).
> He triggers his Force Field and goes into battle. Seeing that
> his enemy is vulnerable to mental powers, he reconfigures his
> 4D6 RKA into a 6D6 Ego Attack, one charge, which he uses. He
> then attempts to reconfigure the 20 points into an Autofire
> Ego Blast, but cannot: the real points are locked. He then
> attempts to reconfigure some of his force field, but the
> points are also locked: all the charges have been used.
>
> Ex: The next day, Abuseman has 4D6 RKA with 8- jammed x10END
> for a total of -6 1/2: 8 real points. He fires successfully
> (using 60 END!) and wants to reconfigure: no problem. Later,
> he configures to the same RKA, and fires unsuccessfully (wasting
> 60 END!) The points are now locked and cannot be reconfigured.
>
>If only a portion of the charges are used, then the player has two
>options: keep those points in powers that have the same number of
>charges, and treat that number of charges as having been used, or compute
>the difference in cost between the power purchased and the power with the
>number of charges that remain. The difference in points (which must be
>at least one) are unusable for the rest of the day.
>
> Ex: Abuseman whips out a modern RPG launcher: 2D6 RKA Expl AF
> OAF Fragile 12 charges: 60 active/24 real. He fires one burst,
> then wants to reconfigure. Since he now has 7 charges left,
> the real cost would be 22 points, so two points are locked.
>
>If the powers are put into a focus, and the focus is taken away or
>destroyed, then the points cannot be reconfigured until the focus is
>regained or replaced.
>
> Ex: Abuseman decides to stick with the RPG launcher. An enemy
> agent targets the weapon with his pistol and hits, doing 1 BODY.
> The Fragile focus is wrecked, and Abuseman cannot now reconfigure
> any of the 24 points committed.
>
> Ex: The next day, Abuseman decides to spend a couple of extra
> points and make his weapon an indestructible magic wand. Total
> cost = 26 points. The enemy Martial Artist grabs the wand and
> makes off with it. Abuseman is now out the points until he and
> his friends hunt down the enemy and regain the wand.
>
>Ablative defenses are another potential for abuse. The rule is similar
>to that for charges. I will allow Ablative armor to start with an
>activation roll for the sum of the limitations: Ablative 14- (-1 1/2), so
>the real point difference can be computed.
>
> Ex: Abuseman wants to survive the quest for his wand, so he
> creates 15/15 Armor, Ablative(-1) for 22 real points. After
> a battle, the Armor is down to 14-, so Abuseman wants to
> reconfigure. Adding in the additonal -1/2, the armor is now
> worth only 18 points, so that is how many Abuseman has to
> spend. He can make a 20/25 Force Field, Ablative 14-, or an
> 18/18 Force Field Ablative that starts at full value, or do
> something else entirely.
>
>I think by now the idea is clear. Enforce those limitations!

Great post! I agree with everything apart from the focus bit. In your
RPG example, I would suggest that the points are locked until the next
day (it's 12 charges per day, after all). I use very similar concepts
in FH for spells, and if the focus isn't there, the mage can't change
those points (similar to a spell being ruined) until he has a chance to
study (ie reconfigure his VPP).
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:57:41 -0600 (CST)
X-Sender: pod@avalon.net
From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net>
Subject: Clever Ideas (Was Re: New Powers / Wild Cards)
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>Hi all,
>
>The game is supposed to eventually evolve into a classic four-color
>superhero game. However, at least for the initial sessions, there
>will not be any powered opposition. I'm hoping somebody has clever
>ideas for the 'bad guys', other than the obvious: organized crime,
>street gangs, biker gangs.
>
>Curt Hicks
>

Cult members are always fun. Wide variety to choose from.
Mafia. Always a favorite.
Armored Merc's
Global Dominating Over-Lords from the Future who have gone into the
past to take control at a time when super powered beings were just emerging.
Parallel Universe where the heroes are actually villians and somehow
managed to slip into this reality.
Mages are always fun.
Mad Doctor who wants to kidnap the heroes and do rsearch to find out
why they have these odd powers. always a good one.

That's it for now.

-Dan


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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
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>>>>> "DP" == Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net> writes:

DP> The special effect of a Comic Book Dart is a small steel needle fired
DP> at high velocity from an air rifle. By Comic Book Physics, such darts
DP> often have the ability to drop any animal in their tracks without doing
DP> the slightest bit of harm to them. No blood, no injury, no sign that
DP> the animal was ever struck by the dart once it is physically removed.

This is a simple NND with Life Support or Immunity to the toxin on the
dart, or having "armor" as a special effect for defenses. Since we are
ignoring real physics in favor of comic book physics, how much DEF the
target has is largely irrelevant: either he has "armor" that stops the
dart, or he does not.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

TRG> Hmmm, perhaps an NND as above with the lim being, "only if a 1d6
TRG> RKA could penetrate" without the actual RKA. I'd actually tend to
TRG> make that last part of the NND defense conditions, myself.

The reason I do not like that is it puts the onus on the defender rather
than the attacker. It gives the attacker something he did not pay for, or
comes dangerously close to it.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:

BG> So you're saying that Robert's character Anaconda should buy those
BG> snakes as Followers?

No... I am saying that they should be bought as Telekinesis -- which
Anaconda should already have done. TK certainly can be used to Grab and
Squeeze. The GM might also allow the use of Choke Hold at range with TK,
but if the TK is sufficiently strong that is probably unnecessary.

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To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:

BG> I definitely have to side with Robert on this one. Ego Attack is a
BG> massively different Power from what he said. For one thing it works on
BG> ECV rather than OCV/DCV. For another it's an attack vs EGO and not vs
BG> PRE.

Robert specifically said "maintain concentration" (or something to that
effect). That is Ego (strength of mind), not Presence (strength of
personality). His use of Presence is apparantly to justify the use of NND
when another power models the effect he described.

[...]

>> Again, you are working with the wrong base power. Try "Grab and Squeeze"
>> or "Choke Hold".
BG> Which costs how much? I find neither of these in the list of
BG> Powers.

The former is a standard use of Strength and TK; the latter is a martial
arts maneuver.

>> Wow! three strikes for using the wrong power. Try a Transformation
>> attack instead [...]
BG> Again, you're insisting on a different power and ignoring the
BG> dynamic of how the power operates.

No, I am ignoring how the desired mechanic is being forced to operate in
favor of matching powers to the special effects that have been described.

BG> A Transformation makes a change to a character, or it doesn't, and is
BG> recovered all at once (either with time or from a specific
BG> counteraction), while the proposed Power weakens the target in a way
BG> that is recovered gradually.

GM's discretion allows for "gradual" effect with Transformation; this is a
good example. But if not Transformation then an appropriate collection of
Drains with the same SFX limitation.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Ambiguity List addition: Throwing Damage, Object Damage.
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:

BG> While certainly reasonable on the face of it, I have to wonder about a
BG> piano that does only 5d6 of damage to someone after falling from a height
BG> of 5" (10m, =33').

Then use the hit location chart with the damage multipliers. Crushes your
leg, you get a broken leg. Crushes your head, you die if you don't receive
significant medical attention stat.

5d6 is significant to a normal person.

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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:40:56 -0800
To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@USA.Net&> "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

At 09:25 PM 3/23/98 -0800, Filksinger wrote:

>Considering that an average man hit with 20 such (undrugged) darts
>would probably not die instantly, I must disagree.
>
Empirical evidence:Acupuncture.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: New Powers / Wild Cards
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:51:13 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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> playing in. The campaign premise is that the characters will be the
> first people with 'powers', at least as far as they know. I even
>
> The game is supposed to eventually evolve into a classic four-color
> superhero game.

Be very careful who you pick for the initial opposition then.
If you set a dark tone with government hunters and scientific experiments
being done on them etc... you'll have a heck of a time getting it to be
four color.
A natural disaster makes a good early opponant. A Bond style villian
with an equally bond level absurd plan would also do. If your plan is eventual
four color, stay away from darker plots until after you've set the lighter
theme of four color as the norm.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:02:43 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: New Powers / Wild Cards
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Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes:

> Curt:
> > playing in. The campaign premise is that the characters will be the
> > first people with 'powers', at least as far as they know. I even
> >
> > The game is supposed to eventually evolve into a classic four-color
> > superhero game.
>
Brian:
> Be very careful who you pick for the initial opposition then.
> If you set a dark tone with government hunters and scientific experiments
> being done on them etc... you'll have a heck of a time getting it to be
> four color.

Good point. That's why I mentioned that the game is supposed to
evolve that way. The GM says that the opposition will initially be
'Dark Champions' level, by which he seems to mean that they will be
non-powered. However, one of the players seems perfectly
willing to turn the entire game into a 'Dark Champions' game, though
I'm not sure what he means by that exactly.

Curt

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:19:32 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Creation Workshop
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Brian Wong
>Heromaker is a dead line. It's being replaced entirely by Creation
Workshop.
As soon as they finish the Hero system version of Creation Workshop,
Heromaker
is going into retirement.<

Could someone familiar with Creation Workshop let the rest of us know how
it compares to HeroMaker? I know that CW is a Windows application, and
that you can feed it different templates to make characters from different
systems, but that's about all I know. Besides the improved interface by
going to a Windows app, how is CW better than HeroMaker when you restrict
the scope of CW to just 4th Ed Hero System Rules?

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net>
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net>
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 20:22:27 +0000
Subject: Re: Player-bought supplements
Priority: normal
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To: champ-l@omg.org

> the players... Every rules decision seems to be a thorny issue with
> them, especially if it's not in favor of the PCs. <whine mode off>

There's a very simple way to deal with this. Turn it around and ask
them "Would YOU allow this if YOU were GM?" If they're not running
any at all, offer to let them. You'd be amazed at how often "fair"
turns to "unfair" when turned into the other direction.

Amy

----------------
Theala Sildorian
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page!

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:34:04 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Reply-To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Master Ambiguity List
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> > > How much damage do you do on a move through?
> >
> > Str + velocity/5. Is this a trick question?
>
> Str + c/5?

Nope. Even though your SFX is that of moving at light speed, by
being limited to small movements of 5" a piece, you won't get more than
the 5/5 -- or 1 extra die.

And if T-Port is the power used, then movethroughs are impossible.
Of course, if one bought the lightspeed running or flight with lots of
non-com multiples, we run into the "how does non-combat movement work for
movethrough damage" thing.




-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:37:20 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Master Ambiguity List
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> >> Surely you're not saying that I could just buy 5" of flight in your
> >> campaign, and be able to move at the speed of light just based on SFX?
> >
> > Yes I am. However, your average speed would be a lot less as
> >you'd have to continually stop. You are limited to that 5" per phase of
> >action -- make up a SFX reason.
>
> I think that's a long ways from the (original) question as asked....

The original question was simply how much movement is needed to
move at light speed in the atmosphere. The simplest answer is the 5"
minimum, with a SFX of short trips at light speed.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:41:00 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
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> I happen to consider Energy Blast doing no BODY for no modifier a silly
> rules crock. I mean, at no modifier, my EB does no Knockback, and cannot

Well, I've always seen it as evident that Stun Only does not
include "does no KB". Otherwise you have a situation where you are
assuming that doing no Body is an _advantage_ of about +1/4. So truely
no-bod, no physical force attacks will have the no KB and Stun only for a
-1/4 lim.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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X-Authentication-Warning: snowy.owlnet.rice.edu: chip owned process doing -bs
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:44:52 -0600 (CST)
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu>
Subject: Re: Master Ambiguity List
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On Tue, 24 Mar 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

>
> > > > How much damage do you do on a move through?
> > >
> > > Str + velocity/5. Is this a trick question?
> >
> > Str + c/5?
>
> Nope. Even though your SFX is that of moving at light speed, by
> being limited to small movements of 5" a piece, you won't get more than
> the 5/5 -- or 1 extra die.
>
> And if T-Port is the power used, then movethroughs are impossible.
> Of course, if one bought the lightspeed running or flight with lots of
> non-com multiples, we run into the "how does non-combat movement work for
> movethrough damage" thing.

Is there an ambiguity with how NCM works with move-through?

On a related subject, I suppose if the huge NCM multiple approach is
taken, it could be complemented with droves of combat movement (-3) "only
for acceleration."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:45:15 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Player-bought supplements
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> What's been eating me about using this approach is that, unless I have read
> the entire book, I might be unaware of something that keeps the selected
> rule in check. Maybe I'm being a little paranoid here? In other words, if
> I rely on the players to show me rules they want, then they are only going
> to show me rules that benefit their characters. There may be other
> "counterpoint" rules that should come along with the selected rule.

Sometimes. But many of the books are pretty good at keeping those
things together. Watch for the Style Disad going with KS:Analyse Style.
If the NPCs get the latter, the PC with points for the former will see it
as an actual lim.

> Yes, this is what I will do for any such book, but I didn't do it soon
> enough...he already had some NH stuff. Anyway, I'm also going to adopt the
> philosophy that "if we're in the middle of a session and you show me some
> new rule, the answer will always be NO. Show it to me offline and we'll
> decide."

Quite fair. Much more so than a blanket, "Never if I don't own
it."


> One thing that's been frustrating for me is that one of my players is an
> extreme (that word is too subtle) rationalist, and will carry on at great
> lengths about why this should or shouldn't be allowed (his favorite phrase:
> "It's just stupid!"). Both players (yep, small group) don't seem to take
> GM word as law, ever...I decree that something will be handled in such a
> way, and I get bombarded with shaking heads, looks of disbelief, and
> (usually irrational) reasons why that's the wrong decision. I find that
> somewhat arrogant on the part of my players, seeing as I'm the only one

Sounds like you have more problems than just unfamiliar
suppliments.

> of the problem lies with the players... Every rules decision seems to be a
> thorny issue with them, especially if it's not in favor of the PCs.

Start docking XP. 1 per complaint that continues after GM says
it's over. Sounds like they'll start to get the point when they don't get
anything for the session.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:49:33 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
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> It's an example of HERO's roots in Champions. It's considered "balanced"
> because of the assumption that Heroes Don't Kill, ergo not doing lethal
> damange is a plus. This is forgetting completely that (a) not all HERO
> system characters /are/ heroes -- villains buy EBs too, and WANT to do BODY
> damage, and (b) not all campaigns will care about lethal damage (a "lawless
> frontier" sci-fi setting, you just want to get the job done any way you can).

Then don't take "stun-only".

> > I'm sorry, but this "balance" just doesn't wash with me. If "No
> >Knockback" is a Limitation worth -1/4 (and hey, I can't accidentally knock
> >a villain back into the crowd, or into property I don't want to damage),
> >then "No BODY" should certainly be a -1/2 Limitation.
>
> I agree -- for my own campaigns, "No BODY" is most assuredly worth a
> limitation on the power.

The deal is that the whole system is centered around Stun being
much, much more important than Bod. You will be much more able to KO than
kill any opponent. Giving a cost-break for losing a minor part of an
attack will allow an easily-abused system for a non-limiting cost break on
a power. And the need for Bod damage can be taken through another power
in a framework or even through Str damage. Once you've got someone KOed,
it's pretty easy to kill them.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:51:45 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org


> TRG> Hmmm, perhaps an NND as above with the lim being, "only if a 1d6
> TRG> RKA could penetrate" without the actual RKA. I'd actually tend to
> TRG> make that last part of the NND defense conditions, myself.
>
> The reason I do not like that is it puts the onus on the defender rather
> than the attacker. It gives the attacker something he did not pay for, or
> comes dangerously close to it.

Huh? It's part of the defenses for an NND. He paid for an NND.
Where are you coming from here?



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:53:45 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Hero Games <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: VPP: Shapeshifting
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> > Shapeshifting takes a half phase? Coulda fooled me.
>
> According to the BBB writeup of the power Shape Shift it does. Looks like
> someone else may have fooled you.

Bad memory, that's all. Not a commonly used power for me.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

TRG> Huh? It's part of the defenses for an NND. He paid for an NND.
TRG> Where are you coming from here?

The "defense" is an attack the character has not paid for. I am not
debating its validity; that is just my gut feeling about it.

And I still have difficulty with "not being hit/hurt" as a valid defense
for an NND.

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To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
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>>>>> "DF" == David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com> writes:

DF> I would do this as:
DF> 60 2d6 HKA, AP, BoECV, STR does not Add,
DF> Sfx - Phantasmal Blade

Taking this aside slightly (and thank you for agreeing with me insofar as
Ego is concerned), if you want this to do Body damage I would want to see
an additional +1 advantage for that, identical to the semi-official version
for AVLD.

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To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
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>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> writes:

>> Considering that an average man hit with 20 such (undrugged) darts
>> would probably not die instantly, I must disagree.

L> Empirical evidence:Acupuncture.

Acupuncture needles are not hitting with a velocity of several hundred feet
per second, backed by several tens of grams of tranquilizer dart and
tranquilizer. Quite the contrary, acupuncture is a painstakingly delicate
art.

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Subject: Re: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

TRG> Well, I've always seen it as evident that Stun Only does not
TRG> include "does no KB". Otherwise you have a situation where you are
TRG> assuming that doing no Body is an _advantage_ of about +1/4. So
TRG> truely no-bod, no physical force attacks will have the no KB and Stun
TRG> only for a -1/4 lim.

The rationalle behind "Does No Body" being a -0 limitation is that "no
collateral damage" is an equivalent tradeoff. A particular campaign may
treat it differently, but that is the "stock" ruling.

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:46:34 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Creation Workshop
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To: champ-l@omg.org

At 03:19 PM 3/24/1998 -0500, David Stallard wrote:
>Message text written by Brian Wong
>>Heromaker is a dead line. It's being replaced entirely by Creation
>Workshop.
>As soon as they finish the Hero system version of Creation Workshop,
>Heromaker
>is going into retirement.<
>
>Could someone familiar with Creation Workshop let the rest of us know how
>it compares to HeroMaker? I know that CW is a Windows application, and
>that you can feed it different templates to make characters from different
>systems, but that's about all I know. Besides the improved interface by
>going to a Windows app, how is CW better than HeroMaker when you restrict
>the scope of CW to just 4th Ed Hero System Rules?

I don't think it's possible to know that yet, since the Hero 4th Ed Hero
System Rules template hasn't been released (quite) yet.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:49:20 -0500
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
Subject: Re: New Powers / Wild Cards
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Curt Hicks wrote:

> The game is supposed to eventually evolve into a classic four-color
> superhero game. However, at least for the initial sessions, there
> will not be any powered opposition. I'm hoping somebody has clever
> ideas for the 'bad guys', other than the obvious: organized crime,
> street gangs, biker gangs.


How about introducing something along the lines of Viper? A secret
underground organization that has been plotting to take over the world
for years.. and the emergence of super powers has forced them to take a
more visible role, as they try to steal/duplicate/destroy the secret to
creating supers.

I'm not sure how you are planning to introduce powers to your players,
but possibly something along the lines of: Viper learns that one or more
of the players has gained super powers and kidnaps (or attempts to
kidnap) them.

The Viper agents don't even need to have any 'super-science' weapons or
equipment. They can be pretty damn tough with real world weapons and
equipment (and some martial arts).

It will give the players something to cut their teeth on, and you have a
re-occuring villian that can grow with the PCs. (as more and more
supers emerge, obviously SOME of them will work for Viper)


I use the group name Viper only for convenience. Personally I would
call them something else, just to throw the PCs off.



Todd




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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:49:58 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
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At 12:55 AM 3/24/1998 -0600, Bryant Berggren wrote:
>At 05:10 AM 3/24/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> I happen to consider Energy Blast doing no BODY for no modifier a silly
>>rules crock. I mean, at no modifier, my EB does no Knockback, and cannot
>
>Um ... where does it say it does no Knockback?

Page 166:
"...the attacker should roll 2d6 and subtract that total from the amount
of BODY done by the attack." If no BODY is done by the attack, then it
can't do any Knockback either.

>>affect vehicles, automatons, foci, Entangles, walls, or any other inanimate
>>objects. And what's the supposedly balancing factor? I can't accidentally
>>hurt innocent bystanders, or do damage to property I don't want to damage.
>
>It's an example of HERO's roots in Champions. It's considered "balanced"
>because of the assumption that Heroes Don't Kill, ergo not doing lethal
>damange is a plus. This is forgetting completely that (a) not all HERO
>system characters /are/ heroes -- villains buy EBs too, and WANT to do BODY
>damage, and (b) not all campaigns will care about lethal damage (a "lawless
>frontier" sci-fi setting, you just want to get the job done any way you can).

Not to mention that, in most campaigns at least, a hero will need to
damage vehicles, automatons, etc., much more often than he'll be in a
situation where he'll be risking hurting bystanders or doing unwanted
property damage.
---
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:58:41 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
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At 02:49 PM 3/24/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> It's an example of HERO's roots in Champions. It's considered "balanced"
>> because of the assumption that Heroes Don't Kill, ergo not doing lethal
>> damange is a plus. This is forgetting completely that (a) not all HERO
>> system characters /are/ heroes -- villains buy EBs too, and WANT to do BODY
>> damage, and (b) not all campaigns will care about lethal damage (a "lawless
>> frontier" sci-fi setting, you just want to get the job done any way you
can).
>
> Then don't take "stun-only".

There are plenty of situations where an EB *should* be STUN only, but
not modified by "special" defenses like Power Defense. Certain types of
heat damage (not fire) or cold damage are a couple of examples that come
right to mind.

>> > I'm sorry, but this "balance" just doesn't wash with me. If "No
>> >Knockback" is a Limitation worth -1/4 (and hey, I can't accidentally knock
>> >a villain back into the crowd, or into property I don't want to damage),
>> >then "No BODY" should certainly be a -1/2 Limitation.
>>
>> I agree -- for my own campaigns, "No BODY" is most assuredly worth a
>> limitation on the power.
>
> The deal is that the whole system is centered around Stun being
>much, much more important than Bod. You will be much more able to KO than
>kill any opponent. Giving a cost-break for losing a minor part of an
>attack will allow an easily-abused system for a non-limiting cost break on
>a power. And the need for Bod damage can be taken through another power
>in a framework or even through Str damage. Once you've got someone KOed,
>it's pretty easy to kill them.

And once you have a hero whose attacks do STUN only in an Entangle or
fighting against an Automaton or (generally speaking) someone inside a
Vehicle, he's good and well screwed. And any one of those three is
considerably easier to do than render an opponent unconscoius.
---
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:59:58 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Master Ambiguity List
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At 02:37 PM 3/24/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> >> Surely you're not saying that I could just buy 5" of flight in your
>> >> campaign, and be able to move at the speed of light just based on SFX?
>> >
>> > Yes I am. However, your average speed would be a lot less as
>> >you'd have to continually stop. You are limited to that 5" per phase of
>> >action -- make up a SFX reason.
>>
>> I think that's a long ways from the (original) question as asked....
>
> The original question was simply how much movement is needed to
>move at light speed in the atmosphere. The simplest answer is the 5"
>minimum, with a SFX of short trips at light speed.

The thing is, as the thread has shown, I don't think he was asking about
*short* (microsecond) trips.
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:02:47 -0800
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
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At 02:27 PM 3/24/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
>
>TRG> Hmmm, perhaps an NND as above with the lim being, "only if a 1d6
>TRG> RKA could penetrate" without the actual RKA. I'd actually tend to
>TRG> make that last part of the NND defense conditions, myself.
>
>The reason I do not like that is it puts the onus on the defender rather
>than the attacker. It gives the attacker something he did not pay for, or
>comes dangerously close to it.

And what does it give the attacker that he didn't pay for?
---
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:08:20 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: VPP: Shapeshifting
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Curt Hicks wrote:
>
>
> Senses and special defenses can't be placed in a power pool anyway by the rules.
> (Though I can see some justification for different vision types, such as IR or UV,
> defined as altering the structure of the eyes.)
>

To be precise, they can only be put in frameworks "with special
permission," which indicates to me that the designers recognized that
there would be abusive and non-abusive cases, and that YMMV by GM.

For example, most GMs I know will often allow Enhanced Senses in an EC
(or by extension in a shapeshifting VPP) if central to the concept.
Since it is difficult to imagine being a hawk without a big visual PER
and night modifiers; therefor, I would allow it without qualm in a
shapeshifting VPP.

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:13:02 -0800
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

At 02:28 PM 3/24/1998 -0000, David Fair wrote:
>On 3/24/98 3:40 AM Robert A. West (robtwest@erols.com) Said:
>
>>Death Knight can summon a phantasmal blade that attacks whom he commands.
>>This blade is perfectly visible, even to cameras, but has no substance,
>>so it passes through armor, force fields and the like. If the target can
>>keep his mind concentrated enough to completely ignore the blade, he is
>>safe and will suffer no effects, but even a moment's waver in
>>concentration and he will suffer all the pain of being sliced by a sword.
>>
>>60 6D6 EB NND, defense is to make a PRE roll. AIs and
>> any "perfectly logical" aliens are immune by SFX.
>
>The problem here is that if I have a 50 rPD, but fail my PRE roll, I take
>damage, since failing my PRE Roll means I "suffer all the pain of being
>sliced by a sword". I should suffer exactly not at all with a 50 rPD.

Reading through Robert's description of the SFX and dynamic, I don't see
what your 50 rPD would have to do with it. The blade isn't steel is
"phantasmal," with no real substance, so it passes through armor.

>I would do this as:
>60 2d6 HKA, AP, BoECV, STR does not Add,
> Sfx - Phantasmal Blade
>
>The special effects are the same, but here it is modelled as being
>resisted better with a higher EGO, and allowing that EGO to reduce the
>damage (maybe I did well ignoring it as it passed through my chest, but
>faltered slightly when it got to my vitals - at that point I wavered and
>the damage started becoming real). Also, since the blade looks real, and
>others are damaged by it "Perfectly Logical" aliens & AI's should also be
>damaged by it; that is only logical.

The special effect doesn't seem quite the same; and you've greatly
altered the dynamic of the Power. Also, the Power doesn't work quite as
you described, either:
1. The Power becomes a mind-to-mind attack, rather than one delivered by
hand (which is what Robert described).
2. It can now be defended by Ego Defense, which may or may not be
appropriate; it seemed to me more like an attack at the spirit level than
at the mental level (which may seem the same thing to many, and
legitimately so, but is different to my mind and probably is to others as
well)
3. You stepped right out and changed whether it works against AIs and
"logical" aliens for no apparent reason other than that it seemed "logical"
to you.
No offense intended, but I don't think you really understood what Robert
was trying to get at in his description.

>>Constrictor has snakes who attack people by suffocation. Only people who
>>do not need to breathe, who are encased in heavy rigid armor that
>>prevents construction or who are so strong as to be able to shrug off the
>>attack. Once commenced, the attack only ends when the victim goes
>>unconscious or the snake is destroyed.
>>
>>60 3D6 EB NND Continuous: stopped by breaking entangle
>> Defenses: 10 pts Life Support or 10 PD Rigid Armor or 45 STR
>>33 5D6 Entangle Linked to EB.
>
>This is an RKA, Continuous, NND Vs. Life support, Requires a Successful
>Grab and Hold.
>Stretching, Indirect should be used to perform the Grab (you may
>want/need some Sfx limits on the stretching, such as "Can only do what a
>normal snake could do").

This is, at least, a lot better than Rat's attempted construct. It's
still a bit messy for what I'm gathering is to be a "Keep Your Constructs
Simple" game.

>>I already gave the Dr. Geriatric example, which you ignored, as a case
>>where supra-minimum levels were required for game-balance reasons.
>>
>>60 6D6 EB NND Defenses is LS:Aging
>>
>>is a fine NND that fits your rules, but in most campaigns, LS:Aging is
>>just not common enough. After discussion, the following was arrived at.
>>
>>60 6D6 EB NND Defenses are any of: LS:Aging, 10 Power Def,
>> 5 hardened Power Defense.
>>
>I missed the SFx write-up of this but it sounds like what you want is an
>attack that damages you making you old, then snapping you back to your
>current age. If this is so, then from a SFx standpoint, the first
>construct is all that is needed. (I have no idea why Power Defense should
>stop this attack, but Power Def is a tochy subject anyhow)
>
>You say LS:Aging may not be common enough in your campaign, but remember
>that all nonliving items that you may wish to damage with this
>effectively have LS:Aging. Thus you couldn't use it to reduce a stone
>wall to rubble by erosion (that a CE) though a wooden door would be so
>effected (wood rots and warps with age). It may be that your GM didn't
>consider this. Try putting it in an Aging Multipower with a CE to effect
>the Nonliving Stuff, and maybe a transform if you want to be able to
>leave the target as a withered old crone.

In the first place, nonliving items can't be affected by NND, unless the
NND Does BODY.
In the second place, nonliving items *do* age. Just ask anyone with a
car from 1988 or earlier.
---
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:14:51 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: VPP: Shapeshifting
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Rick Holding wrote:
>
> Robert A. West wrote:
>
> >
> > Ex: Abuseman has a 60 pt cosmic VPP (+2 to control cost, so
> > the real cost is 180 points). He creates a 4D6 RKA with just
>
> A small point. The control cost is what has the +2 advantage placed
> on it and that is half the size of the pool so its 60 points for the pool and
> 90 points for the control. All up cost, 150 points.

Whoops! Thanks for catching the error: it was a case of simple
carelessness.

>
> The pool cost can not ever be modified. (yes, an absolute. Read the
> third paragraph of page 116 for those who say there are no absolutes in Hero.)
> All advantages and disadvantages are applied to the control cost of the pool
> which starts out at half the size of the pool.

I hope that my artihmetic error did not mislead anyone into thinking that
the pool cost might be modified. This is one of the few absolutes in
Hero.

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:15:56 -0800
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
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At 02:30 PM 3/24/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>
>BG> So you're saying that Robert's character Anaconda should buy those
>BG> snakes as Followers?
>
>No... I am saying that they should be bought as Telekinesis -- which
>Anaconda should already have done. TK certainly can be used to Grab and
>Squeeze. The GM might also allow the use of Choke Hold at range with TK,
>but if the TK is sufficiently strong that is probably unnecessary.

Actually, in this particular case, this does make more sense than the
NND originally proffered, and gives wider latitude for what else can be
done. You should've just said that it should be bought as TK in the first
place (instead of just saying that it's a Grab and Squeeze maneuver and
letting us guess at what you meant).
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:20:54 -0800
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

At 02:37 PM 3/24/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>
>BG> I definitely have to side with Robert on this one. Ego Attack is a
>BG> massively different Power from what he said. For one thing it works on
>BG> ECV rather than OCV/DCV. For another it's an attack vs EGO and not vs
>BG> PRE.
>
>Robert specifically said "maintain concentration" (or something to that
>effect). That is Ego (strength of mind), not Presence (strength of
>personality). His use of Presence is apparantly to justify the use of NND
>when another power models the effect he described.

Granted.

>>> Again, you are working with the wrong base power. Try "Grab and Squeeze"
>>> or "Choke Hold".
>BG> Which costs how much? I find neither of these in the list of
>BG> Powers.
>
>The former is a standard use of Strength and TK; the latter is a martial
>arts maneuver.

In that case, STR or TK would be the base Power. In the above-quoted
text, you referred to "Grab and Squeeze" and "Choke Hold" as Powers.

>>> Wow! three strikes for using the wrong power. Try a Transformation
>>> attack instead [...]
>BG> Again, you're insisting on a different power and ignoring the
>BG> dynamic of how the power operates.
>
>No, I am ignoring how the desired mechanic is being forced to operate in
>favor of matching powers to the special effects that have been described.
>
>BG> A Transformation makes a change to a character, or it doesn't, and is
>BG> recovered all at once (either with time or from a specific
>BG> counteraction), while the proposed Power weakens the target in a way
>BG> that is recovered gradually.
>
>GM's discretion allows for "gradual" effect with Transformation; this is a
>good example. But if not Transformation then an appropriate collection of
>Drains with the same SFX limitation.

Where does the HSR talk about "gradual" effect of Transformation? (I
know it's in TUSM, but that's a whole different ball of wax, especially
considering how critical you've been about the Ultimate books.)
And anyway, either Transformation or Drain would still be affected by
Power Defense in a scalar fashion.
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:22:11 -0800
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

At 04:01 PM 3/24/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:
>
>TRG> Huh? It's part of the defenses for an NND. He paid for an NND.
>TRG> Where are you coming from here?
>
>The "defense" is an attack the character has not paid for.

I don't understand. What attack? The whole attack was just an NND,
wasn't it?
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:27:01 -0800
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

At 04:08 PM 3/24/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> writes:
>
>>> Considering that an average man hit with 20 such (undrugged) darts
>>> would probably not die instantly, I must disagree.
>
>L> Empirical evidence:Acupuncture.
>
>Acupuncture needles are not hitting with a velocity of several hundred feet
>per second, backed by several tens of grams of tranquilizer dart and
>tranquilizer. Quite the contrary, acupuncture is a painstakingly delicate
>art.

Even if those acupunture needles *were* hitting with a velocity of
several hundred feet per second, backed by several tens of grams of dart
and tranquilizer (to which the target is immune, let's assume for the sake
of discussion since we're trying to focus on the darts for a moment), I
can't see someone dying instantly from being simultaneously hit by 20 of
them, unless one went through a vital organ (like the heart or the brain or
a vital part of the spine). I could certainly understand that person being
in a lot of pain, and probably yelling a lot of naughty words and becoming
red in the face, but not dying instantly.
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:29:25 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Correction of my FTL notes
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Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:

> Robert, it still appears that 25 purchased multiples for a character with
> SPD 5 will only get to 93.2% of c. You need that extra 20% increase to
> push it over the top (to 111.85%) unless your GM will let you take the
> extra 1.2 million "/Turn without paying for them.>

OK, let's look at your calculation.

>
> c = 300,000,000 m/s x 12 = 3,600,000,000 m/Turn
> 5" Flight = 10 m/phase
> SPD 2 = 20 m/Turn combat, 40 m/Turn non-combat
>
> 360,000,000 / 40 = 90,000,000

Fine so far. You are computing meters/turn.

> N-C "/Turn Mult. Needed Doublings Required
> SPD 5 100 36,000,000 25.2

Note the use of scale inches. 100"=200m. Thus, only x18,000,000 is
needed, and 24.2 doublings will do nicely.

Could someone please get rid of the Suppress Arithmetic Skill field that
seems to be pervading the group? Aha! I will blame it on the diabolical
influence of the new server!

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:38:31 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: New Powers / Wild Cards
Cc: jeffCFI@aol.com
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Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> writes:

>
> How about introducing something along the lines of Viper? A secret
> underground organization that has been plotting to take over the world
> for years.. and the emergence of super powers has forced them to take > a more visible role, as they try to steal/duplicate/destroy the
> secret to creating supers.
>
This is good. For all I know the GM is planning on something like this
already.

> I'm not sure how you are planning to introduce powers to your players,
> but possibly something along the lines of: Viper learns that one or
> more of the players has gained super powers and kidnaps (or attempts
> to kidnap) them.
>

Well, the background is that all of the characters are descendants of
alien shapeshifters who 'invaded' Earth some decades ago and bred
with Earthlings for whatever reason. So the 'alien DNA' will allow
the characters to have superpowers.

The gamemaster has agreed that each character will have several
'strange incidents' as their powers develop. I guess we'll play
these out, or at least make them up and agree on them before starting
the first scenario with actual opposition.

One of the interesting things about this idea to me is that the
characters will NOT be in full control of their powers at the start,
and may not even know what their powers are exactly. So we'll get to
play that out. I plan to have my character be mistaken about
what his actual powers are at first.

> The Viper agents don't even need to have any 'super-science' weapons
> or equipment. They can be pretty damn tough with real world weapons
> and equipment (and some martial arts).
>
Very true. The GM is limiting resistant defenses to start with and
not allowing us to start with more than normal characteristic maxima.

>
> I use the group name Viper only for convenience. Personally I would
> call them something else, just to throw the PCs off.
>
Yep. Maybe Hydra ? Or AIM ? Or Yoyodyne Technologies ?

Curt

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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:56:12 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Email Address Help - VOICE
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

If anyone has email addresses for any of the following one-time Hero
authors, please forward that information to me (or, probably better, give
them my address and ask them to please contact me). Each has created one
or more character that, with their approval, I would like to include as
members of VOICE in an upcoming update:

David Berge
Lance Gueck*
Donny Jansen
Timothy Keating
David Matalon
Jeff O'Hare
David Rogers
Barry Wilson

Please contact me directly (do not post to the list) or ask them to do so.
*Lance Gueck is of particular importance, because I want to use Death
Rider in TUSV as well as in VOICE. Thus the first person to give me a
correct address for him I will award with one of the author's copies for
TUSV, and I could be fairly easly convinced to let Lance have one of those
as well if he OKs the inclusion.
On a similar note, an email address for Dean and Dana Edgell would be a
Good Thing as well, as I'm wanting to use Cybercop in TUSV. (I've made the
faux pas of putting her in the First Draft; I'll have to cut her if I can't
get their OK.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:

BG> I can't see someone dying instantly from being simultaneously
BG> hit by 20 of them, unless one went through a vital organ (like the
BG> heart or the brain or a vital part of the spine).

A tranq dart that is built around a 1/2D6 RKA is intended to penetrate the
hide of an elephant or rhinoceros (1-2rPD or so; if greater than add AP to
the base attack). This is not the kind of needle that your physician
sticks in your arm; these are sharp, tempered steel tubes, two to three
inches long and nearly a quarter of an inch in diameter, moving at over 200
feet per second.

Damn straight 10 or 20 of these will kill a normal person.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
\

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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:02:10 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org


> TRG> Huh? It's part of the defenses for an NND. He paid for an NND.
> TRG> Where are you coming from here?
>
> The "defense" is an attack the character has not paid for. I am not
> debating its validity; that is just my gut feeling about it.

The defense is dependant on what the target has paid for, just
like almost any NND.

> And I still have difficulty with "not being hit/hurt" as a valid defense
> for an NND.

Well, not being hit goes without saying as a defense against any
attack. But having enough def to stop an Xd6 attack can be a very valid
SFX.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:03:26 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org


> DF> I would do this as:
> DF> 60 2d6 HKA, AP, BoECV, STR does not Add,
> DF> Sfx - Phantasmal Blade
>
> Taking this aside slightly (and thank you for agreeing with me insofar as
> Ego is concerned), if you want this to do Body damage I would want to see
> an additional +1 advantage for that, identical to the semi-official version
> for AVLD.

I have a house rule that if a BOECV power acts against regular
defenses instead of ego def, which is a stated option, no additional
advantage is needed to do bod damage.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:09:13 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
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> >Um ... where does it say it does no Knockback?
>
> Page 166:
> "...the attacker should roll 2d6 and subtract that total from the amount
> of BODY done by the attack." If no BODY is done by the attack, then it
> can't do any Knockback either.

This is worded poorly. The intention is from the Bod-score of the
attack, whether bod is done or not. If you look at it, actually, this
would suggest that this would be bod done when all is said and done --
after defenses. KB would be nothing.

> Not to mention that, in most campaigns at least, a hero will need to
> damage vehicles, automatons, etc., much more often than he'll be in a
> situation where he'll be risking hurting bystanders or doing unwanted
> property damage.

And most Stun Only I've seen have been specifiacally for
anti-personelle and have usually come packaged with some sort of
physical-presense attack.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:11:35 -0600 (CST)
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

> >On 3/24/98 3:40 AM Robert A. West (robtwest@erols.com) Said:
> >
> >>Death Knight can summon a phantasmal blade that attacks whom he commands.
> >>This blade is perfectly visible, even to cameras, but has no substance,
> >>so it passes through armor, force fields and the like. If the target can
> >>keep his mind concentrated enough to completely ignore the blade, he is
> >>safe and will suffer no effects, but even a moment's waver in
> >>concentration and he will suffer all the pain of being sliced by a sword.
> >>
> >>60 6D6 EB NND, defense is to make a PRE roll. AIs and
> >> any "perfectly logical" aliens are immune by SFX.
> >
Rat:

> >The problem here is that if I have a 50 rPD, but fail my PRE roll, I take
> >damage, since failing my PRE Roll means I "suffer all the pain of being
> >sliced by a sword". I should suffer exactly not at all with a 50 rPD.
>
Bob Greenwade:

> Reading through Robert's description of the SFX and dynamic, I don't see
> what your 50 rPD would have to do with it. The blade isn't steel is
> "phantasmal," with no real substance, so it passes through armor.
>

I think Rat's point is that if a character has 50 resistant PD and somebody swings
a sword at her, there would be NO pain of being sliced by a sword. And the
character would not expect to feel any pain.

>>Constrictor has snakes who attack people by suffocation. Only people who
>>do not need to breathe, who are encased in heavy rigid armor that
>>prevents construction or who are so strong as to be able to shrug off the
>>attack. Once commenced, the attack only ends when the victim goes
>>unconscious or the snake is destroyed.
>>
>>60 3D6 EB NND Continuous: stopped by breaking entangle
>> Defenses: 10 pts Life Support or 10 PD Rigid Armor or 45 STR
>>33 5D6 Entangle Linked to EB.
>
>This is an RKA, Continuous, NND Vs. Life support, Requires a Successful
>Grab and Hold.
>Stretching, Indirect should be used to perform the Grab (you may
>want/need some Sfx limits on the stretching, such as "Can only do what a
>normal snake could do").

Why is Constrictor's attack an RKA ? Because it does stun until somebody is
knocked out and then starts doing killing damage ?

Curt

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:08:35 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 03:50 PM 3/23/1998 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:

> >> Maybe if its name was changed to Increased Stun Factor?
> >
> >Normal attacks don't use a stun multiplier, so ISM has no meaning.
>
> Which is precisely *why* I suggested the name change (a point that I
> *thought* was fairly obvious).

The system doesn't need it, and it would serve only as a point crock.
Other than that, the idea has no redeeming features that I can see.

>
> >Trying to give it a meaning in the fashion described strikes me as a
> >solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Since an EB may be defined as
> >"does BODY' or "does no BODY" with no difference in cost, it seems
> >straightforward that part of an EB can do BODY and part not, again at
> >normal point cost.
>

> I happen to consider Energy Blast doing no BODY for no modifier a silly
> rules crock. I mean, at no modifier, my EB does no Knockback, and cannot
> affect vehicles, automatons, foci, Entangles, walls, or any other inanimate
> objects. And what's the supposedly balancing factor? I can't accidentally
> hurt innocent bystanders, or do damage to property I don't want to damage.

Which is a *big* advantage in four-color Champions games and near
approximations. Characters who want to kill, buy RKAs; those who want to
have the option to avoid serious bodily harm are the ones who buy EBs.

Who prefers to buy Energy Blast? Characters with CAK, those who
adventure with characters with CAK, characters who live in societies with
strong laws, characters who want to capture enemies to interrogate them.
What is the status of "Does No BODY" to such characters? It is a
positive benefit. Typical supers multipower:

30 Multipower Reserve OAF Magic Sword
1u 2D6 HKA
3u 4D6 RKA (Flying Sword)
6s 12D6EB Does No Body (Stun Bolts from sword)
2s 15PD/15ED Force Field (Super Parry)

The stun bolts will be (mostly) used when the object is to capture, the
HKA and RKA when the object is to kill. Not doing BODY means that one
does not have to worry about accidentally losing a valuable prisoner who
can be grilled by the mentalist until he gives up all his secrets.

Of course, an RKA, does no BODY is worth a limitation.

And, of course, if you still believe that No BODY is worth a limitation
on an Energy Blast, you can always take it as a partial limitation on the
Energy Blast:

43 10D6 EB, 8D6 normal, 2D6 does no body(-1/2). [50 active]

This compares favorably with the proposed

60 8D6 EB ISF(+1/2) [60 active].

The only reason to use ISF would be if the EB had advantages already

50 4D6 EB ISF(+1/2) 0 END(+1/2) Autofire(+1/2) -- ave = 14 STUN
vs
54 5D6+1 EB 0 END(+1/2) AF(+1/2) -- ave = 14.5 STUN

as a crock around active-point limits or to squeeze into a multipower.

>
> >In view of this, I see no reason to develop house rules that contradict
> >one of the few clear-cut prohibiitions in the BBB. The Hero guys do this
> >so rarely that I tend to pay attention when they do.
>
> It's not a house rule; it's a suggestion for an official rule.

Sorry, I thought it fairly obvious that a good house rule is generally a
good suggestion for an official rule and vice-versa. Allow me to
rephrase:

In view of the fact that ISF is not needed, I see no reason to
ask Hero to include this advantage. IMHO, the entire concept
is a waste of time.

>
> It *was* a misprint, or more accurately an error on the part of the
> author because he didn't quite understand the Hero System.

Well, shame on Hero for having rules supplements written by people who
don't understand the system. Unfortunately, people often try to rescue
mistakes such as this, and dumb ideas are born.


--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


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From: "Ron Abitz" <ronald@centraltx.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Pre vs Ego
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 18:12:02 -0600
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----------
> From: Tim R. Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
> To:
> Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
> Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
> Date: Wednesday, March 25, 1998 5:01 PM
>
>
> > RAW> In a sense, this is a huge Presence Attack that does STUN rather
than
> > RAW> causing one to run away.
> >
> > At this point I need to point out that Ego may also be used to defend
> > against Presence Attacks. One uses the higher of the two, Ego or
Presence.
>
> A mistake in the system. Why buy Pre?
>
>
> -Tim Gilberg

For Pre Attacks. And Pre cost less then Ego. And for people that say what
about the Mentalist that is esealy imtimadated get the disadvange
Vulnerablity to Pre Attacks.

Ron Abitz

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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:18:44 -0800
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

At 06:00 PM 3/24/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>
>BG> I can't see someone dying instantly from being simultaneously
>BG> hit by 20 of them, unless one went through a vital organ (like the
>BG> heart or the brain or a vital part of the spine).
>
>A tranq dart that is built around a 1/2D6 RKA is intended to penetrate the
>hide of an elephant or rhinoceros (1-2rPD or so; if greater than add AP to
>the base attack). This is not the kind of needle that your physician
>sticks in your arm; these are sharp, tempered steel tubes, two to three
>inches long and nearly a quarter of an inch in diameter, moving at over 200
>feet per second.
>
>Damn straight 10 or 20 of these will kill a normal person.

Instantly, even without hits to vital organs (as defined above)?
And would 30 kill a rhino?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:25:35 -0800
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

At 05:11 PM 3/24/1998 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote:
>> >On 3/24/98 3:40 AM Robert A. West (robtwest@erols.com) Said:
>> >
>> >>Death Knight can summon a phantasmal blade that attacks whom he
commands.
>> >>This blade is perfectly visible, even to cameras, but has no substance,
>> >>so it passes through armor, force fields and the like. If the target
can
>> >>keep his mind concentrated enough to completely ignore the blade, he is
>> >>safe and will suffer no effects, but even a moment's waver in
>> >>concentration and he will suffer all the pain of being sliced by a sword.
>> >>
>> >>60 6D6 EB NND, defense is to make a PRE roll. AIs and
>> >> any "perfectly logical" aliens are immune by SFX.
>> >
>Rat:
>
>> >The problem here is that if I have a 50 rPD, but fail my PRE roll, I take
>> >damage, since failing my PRE Roll means I "suffer all the pain of being
>> >sliced by a sword". I should suffer exactly not at all with a 50 rPD.

Are you sure of your attribution here? By my records, this was written
by David Fair.

>Bob Greenwade:
>
>> Reading through Robert's description of the SFX and dynamic, I don't see
>> what your 50 rPD would have to do with it. The blade isn't steel is
>> "phantasmal," with no real substance, so it passes through armor.
>
>I think Rat's point is that if a character has 50 resistant PD and
somebody swings
>a sword at her, there would be NO pain of being sliced by a sword. And the
>character would not expect to feel any pain.

Your latter sentence is quite correct. However, this is not a normal
sword; as pointed out, it's a "phantasmal" sword.

>>>Constrictor has snakes who attack people by suffocation. Only people who
>>>do not need to breathe, who are encased in heavy rigid armor that
>>>prevents construction or who are so strong as to be able to shrug off the
>>>attack. Once commenced, the attack only ends when the victim goes
>>>unconscious or the snake is destroyed.
>>>
>>>60 3D6 EB NND Continuous: stopped by breaking entangle
>>> Defenses: 10 pts Life Support or 10 PD Rigid Armor or 45 STR
>>>33 5D6 Entangle Linked to EB.
>>
>>This is an RKA, Continuous, NND Vs. Life support, Requires a Successful
>>Grab and Hold.
>>Stretching, Indirect should be used to perform the Grab (you may
>>want/need some Sfx limits on the stretching, such as "Can only do what a
>>normal snake could do").
>
>Why is Constrictor's attack an RKA ? Because it does stun until somebody is
>knocked out and then starts doing killing damage ?

Don't ask me. This quote wasn't mine at all (even though your quoting
attributes it to me).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:16:13 -0800
From: Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Re: Object Damage.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 05:35 AM 3/24/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Well, the problem with the first part is that it isn't really like being
>knocked back into a wall; it's more like the wall being knocked back into
>*you.* And all things considered I think I'd rather run into a wall than
>vice versa.

How does the fact that one object has velocity, and the other doesn't,
change if the roles change? I'm no physics major, mind you, and don't
profess to be. And I certainly don't think many comic books are based on
physics anyway...so that aside...

It seems to me to be the most consistent way to measure how much damage
something can do (that isn't a character with stats) as far as d6 damage.
The mechanic for determining damage from hitting an obstacle during
knockback has been established. How is applying that to an obstacle
hitting a hero so much different?

I think that general logic applies here, without getting mucked up in too
much science, such that a GM could rule that if the Safe is dropped from X
inches up, it will reach V velocity when it hits Z hero. (there I go
again..."hits zee hero"...and French at that!) Hence if V is greater than
the safe's DEF+BOD then the safe only does DEF+BOD in d6 damage, and
promptly "cracks" on Z hero's head...

(ouch...what is the DEF+BOD of that pun...)

Jim

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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:47:12 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
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At 04:08 PM 3/24/1998 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:
>> I happen to consider Energy Blast doing no BODY for no modifier a silly
>> rules crock. I mean, at no modifier, my EB does no Knockback, and cannot
>> affect vehicles, automatons, foci, Entangles, walls, or any other inanimate
>> objects. And what's the supposedly balancing factor? I can't accidentally
>> hurt innocent bystanders, or do damage to property I don't want to damage.
>
>Which is a *big* advantage in four-color Champions games and near
>approximations. Characters who want to kill, buy RKAs; those who want to
>have the option to avoid serious bodily harm are the ones who buy EBs.

To start with, characters don't buy RKA or EB. *Players* buy RKA or EB.
Characters, being subject to the whim of their players' design, very
often don't have any choice in their Powers. Laser Lad may have a Total
Code Against Killing even if his laser attack is reflected on his character
sheet as a 4d6 RKA (or even a 2 1/2d6 Penetrating RKA).
Characters who are that concerned with killing, and who have a choice in
their Powers, will tend to not use (what we call in game terms) "normal
damage" weapons like big clubs and heavy blasters any more than they'd use
"killing damage" weapons like swords and lasers. They'll use knockout gas
grenades, bolas, and other attacks that don't do any real damage.

>Who prefers to buy Energy Blast? Characters with CAK, those who
>adventure with characters with CAK, characters who live in societies with
>strong laws, characters who want to capture enemies to interrogate them.
>What is the status of "Does No BODY" to such characters? It is a
>positive benefit. Typical supers multipower:
>
>30 Multipower Reserve OAF Magic Sword
>1u 2D6 HKA
>3u 4D6 RKA (Flying Sword)
>6s 12D6EB Does No Body (Stun Bolts from sword)
>2s 15PD/15ED Force Field (Super Parry)

Slightly off Subject here, but what's the "s" for? (In Multipowers, I
only know "u" and "m".)

>The stun bolts will be (mostly) used when the object is to capture, the
>HKA and RKA when the object is to kill. Not doing BODY means that one
>does not have to worry about accidentally losing a valuable prisoner who
>can be grilled by the mentalist until he gives up all his secrets.

In this particular case, the No BODY on the EB would be worth no
Limitation, or at most the -1/4 Limitation from doing no Knockback.

>Of course, an RKA, does no BODY is worth a limitation.

I fail to see any reason to treat it differently from EB in this regard.

>And, of course, if you still believe that No BODY is worth a limitation
>on an Energy Blast, you can always take it as a partial limitation on the
>Energy Blast:
>
>43 10D6 EB, 8D6 normal, 2D6 does no body(-1/2). [50 active]
>
>This compares favorably with the proposed
>
>60 8D6 EB ISF(+1/2) [60 active].
>
>The only reason to use ISF would be if the EB had advantages already
>
>50 4D6 EB ISF(+1/2) 0 END(+1/2) Autofire(+1/2) -- ave = 14 STUN
>vs
>54 5D6+1 EB 0 END(+1/2) AF(+1/2) -- ave = 14.5 STUN
>
>as a crock around active-point limits or to squeeze into a multipower.

It's for the latter case that I support ISF more than anything else. If
not for that one consideration, I'd yield to your partially limited example
without further argument.

>> >In view of this, I see no reason to develop house rules that contradict
>> >one of the few clear-cut prohibiitions in the BBB. The Hero guys do this
>> >so rarely that I tend to pay attention when they do.
>>
>> It's not a house rule; it's a suggestion for an official rule.
>
>Sorry, I thought it fairly obvious that a good house rule is generally a
>good suggestion for an official rule and vice-versa. Allow me to
>rephrase:
>
> In view of the fact that ISF is not needed, I see no reason to
> ask Hero to include this advantage. IMHO, the entire concept
> is a waste of time.

I've never considered that obvious, since I've seen both on this list
and in private messages several "house rules" that I considered very good
for the campaign in which they were used, but would never dream of wanting
to see published even as an optional rule in an Ultimate or genre book. (A
campaign book perhaps, but that goes back to being for the specific campaign.)

>> It *was* a misprint, or more accurately an error on the part of the
>> author because he didn't quite understand the Hero System.
>
>Well, shame on Hero for having rules supplements written by people who
>don't understand the system. Unfortunately, people often try to rescue
>mistakes such as this, and dumb ideas are born.

I think this was probably why the Hero Guys made this rule (that "you
have to know the system well to write for us") explicit. And it's not for
nothing that Europoean Enemies is sometimes called "Plan Nine from Hero
Games." There's a good amount of salvageable stuff in there (I personally
think Doppleganger is cool, and I see a lot of unrealized potential in the
Warsaw Pact group), but it's too full of mistakes, cliches, and
underdeveloped ideas to be extremely useful.
---
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:56:46 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Object Damage.
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At 05:16 PM 3/24/1998 -0800, Jim Dickinson wrote:
>At 05:35 AM 3/24/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> Well, the problem with the first part is that it isn't really like being
>>knocked back into a wall; it's more like the wall being knocked back into
>>*you.* And all things considered I think I'd rather run into a wall than
>>vice versa.
>
>How does the fact that one object has velocity, and the other doesn't,
>change if the roles change? I'm no physics major, mind you, and don't
>profess to be. And I certainly don't think many comic books are based on
>physics anyway...so that aside...

Inertia from mass. A car hitting a stationary train at 15 mph is going
to suffer a lot less than if the train is moving and the car is stationary.

>It seems to me to be the most consistent way to measure how much damage
>something can do (that isn't a character with stats) as far as d6 damage.
>The mechanic for determining damage from hitting an obstacle during
>knockback has been established. How is applying that to an obstacle
>hitting a hero so much different?

Again, mass. It's not a huge difference, and there's a lot to what you
say, but it's a difference nonetheless.

>I think that general logic applies here, without getting mucked up in too
>much science, such that a GM could rule that if the Safe is dropped from X
>inches up, it will reach V velocity when it hits Z hero. (there I go
>again..."hits zee hero"...and French at that!) Hence if V is greater than
>the safe's DEF+BOD then the safe only does DEF+BOD in d6 damage, and
>promptly "cracks" on Z hero's head...

But going back to my previous idea: say the mass of the Safe is 800 kg,
which would require a 30 STR to lift. So the minimum damage that the Safe
can do from falling is 6d6.
If it has, say, 9 DEF and 6 BODY, then 9+6=15, meaning that the maximum
damage that the Safe can do from falling (or being thrown, or whatever) is
15d6.
So if X inches is 2", then the Safe will do its minimum of 6d6. If X
inches is 10", then the Safe will do the normal falling damage of 10d6. If
X inches of 50", then the Safe will do its maximum damage of 15d6.
Does this seem reasonable?
(And just in case someone's thinking of it already, I seriously doubt
that you'll find many objects with great enough mass but small enough
DEF+BODY that the minimum will be greater than the maximum. In that rare
instance, I'd make it a GM call as to which of the two should be done.)

>(ouch...what is the DEF+BOD of that pun...)

As those who crack puns go, I consider you a relatively safe cracker.
But of course, all of us here are crackers, no?
---
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 18:14:25 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Speedsters
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Filksinger wrote:
>
> On Saturday, March 21, 1998 1:48 PM, Robert A. West wrote:
>
> >FRESHMAN PHYSICS ALERT!
> >
> <snip>
> >Sorry, Filksinger, but this isn't how it works. You are ignoring the
> >difference between Force and Energy: they are fundamentally different
> Sorry, but I have ignored nothing. Check below.

Well, you caught me misremembering the metric value of g, but that is
about the only thing you did right. I should have just left it at 10m/s.

Dang these activation rolls!

> >
> > WORK = FORCE x DISTANCE (1)
> > FORCE = MASS x ACCELERATION (2)
>
> ACCELERATION=DISTANCExTIMExTIME (3). Keep an eye on this one. It is

Sorry, but you are doing your dimensional analysis incorrectly. The
dimension of acceleration are distance/time^2, not distance*time^2. This
leads you into further error below.

>
> >Work refers to energy that moves an object.
> >
> >Now, a STR 10 can lift 100kg in normal earth gravity, which is
> 10.8m/s^2.
>
> That's 9.8 m/s^2.

Correct, as acknowledged above. I have corrected any resulting
calculation errors and amended your references, underscoring the
corrections per netiquette.

>
> >This means by (2) that a normal can exert 980 newtons of force.<<<correction>>> ^^^
>
> this measurement is inaccurate because the human, in lifting, requires
> the ability to match gravity, at 980 newtons, just to hold the weight<<<correction>>> ^^^
> up. More is required to move the body in a field which exerts force
> against that movement, but we don't want to confuse things.

Once you match the 980 newtons that the object weighs, there is no net
force to overcome, and air resistance is trivial. Noting that +1 STR
corresponds to a 15% increase in force, we can add 70 newtons to that
figure without changing the STR score, and that will move our 100kg rock
2m in a couple of seconds.

>
> Note that a newton is defined as the force required to move a 1kg
> object 1 meter per second faster every second.
> FORCE=MASSxDISTANCExTIMExTIME.

No, Force = Mass x Distance / time^2, as stated above.

>
> Do you agree that Tenspeed can accelerate ten times as fast as a
> normal man? If a normal man can reach a speed of, say, 10
> meters/second in the space of one second, then Tenspeed can reach a
> speed of 10 meters/second in 1/10th of a second.
>

I see the garden path coming. Let me throw in some weeds:

#1: A man is not a rocket. The limiting factor on a runner is not force:
it is the complex mechanical interactions involved in running.

#2: Suppose that we strapped a rocket onto your body delivering 980
newtons of thrust and pointed you horizontally on a frictionless sled.
After three seconds, you would be travelling 29.6m/s: almost 70mph! Gee!
I didn't know I could run so fast!

#3: Sprinters do not reach top speed in only one or two seconds, so top
acceleration is far less than that indicated by force.

#4: Lower Body Strength is typically around twice upper body strength,
which is the limiting factor in lifting, and the STR table is based on
lifting. IIRC, a man hooked to a harness and with good traction can draw
closer to 2000 newtons than 980, and can do so delivering around a
fifth of a horsepower.

Of course, at *some* point (around SPD 12 and movement 20" with NCMs) we
exceed the acceleration that can be achieved by even 2000 newtons, so our
speedster does require some additional strength in order to do this.
However in so doing

#5: You have inverted the original proposition. Before, you were
suggesting that some additional STR could be a side-effect of clever use
of additional speed. Now, you are in effect arguing that additional STR
is a prerequisite for moving so fast in the first place. That is an
entirely different kettle of fish.
>
> Force is dependent upon acceleration, which is dependent upon time,
> therefore force is dependent upon time.

Whoa! I was considering a fairly conventional speedster who is simply
capable of moving and reacting fast, and intended to show (and I believe,
did show) that such feats cannot necessarily be used to lift or more
heavy objects, without using a movethrough.

If Tenspeed can get up some momentum and do a movethrough (and while I
understand the reason for limiting movethrough damage to the base
movement, I think that the situation could and should have been handled
differently, otherwise hitting a solid object becomes the optimal way to
stop for high NCM characters) then your speed/energy argument makes
sense, and he should be able to do serious knockback on a poor helpless
rock.

If we are talking about a time contraction field, then we're off to the
races. Even if you "speed up" time locally, whatever that means, to
objects in your "time contraction" field, physics would look normal.
Outside the field, things look normal. The boundary is rather odd.

If Tenspeed takes around a 10x time contraction field with him, then to
the outside world, his voice will be three octaves and a minor third
higher than it would be normally, he will be known as "Motormouth"
because his speech will be so compressed, and he will see into the near
Ultraviolet, while Reds and Oranges will be invisible to him, but
incandescent lighting will look and feel like a heat lamp. He should
have a small damage shield because touching him will cause cells to
demand ten times as much blood as the body outside the field can deliver.
The list goes on.

The problem with time dilation or contraction fields is that they
*ought*, by the ordinary physics that we understand, to have reciprocal
effects on masses. Thus, if crossing a barrier appears to slow time by a
factor of 10, it should also apparently increase masses by the same
factor.

If true, then forces balance across the boundary, which is a nice
property. If false, then the 10x greater momentum of air molecules
inside the field is going to create a relative pressure at the boundary,
and the air will rarify to 1/10 normal density -- better buy 10pts Life
Support! In fact, the same thing will be true of the partial pressure of
water vapor from Tenspeed's sweat: he will dry out like an apple in the
desert. Better make that 15 pts Life Support! Oh, yes! His biological
clock will tick at 10x normal rate, and 1/10 atmosphere qualifies as
partial vacuum and ... why bother? Make that 30 points of Life Support!

If these things are not true, then we are into a realm where relativistic
and quantum physics no longer hold, and where there is no reason to
expect classical approximations to work either.

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 18:30:17 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> >>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes:

I notice that, after you demanded non-mechanical writeups, you deleted
them from the response. I also notice that in every case, the mechanic
that you propose does not fulfil the requirements of the writeup thereby
violating your own premises.

Rather than devise a mechanic for the requested powers (which, I admit,
is very difficult to do without using NND), you propose vaguely similar
powers that you like. I hope that you don't do this to players in your
campaign.

>
> RAW> 60 6D6 EB NND, defense is to make a PRE roll. AIs and
> RAW> any "perfectly logical" aliens are immune by SFX.
>
> This one is easy, because you are using the wrong basic power.

Writeup requirement: if you believe, you are completely vulnerable, if
you disbelieve you are completely immune.
>
> 6D6 Ego Attack, No Range, Visible to Sight group. Whether or not the
> immunity of AIs and other "perfectly logical" beings is worth a limitation
> depends on how common they are in the campaign.

Most SFX of mental defense are inappropriate, so Ego Attack is completely
wrong.


Score: Rat 0 for 1, 2 to go.

>
> RAW> 60 3D6 EB NND Continuous: stopped by breaking entangle
> RAW> Defenses: 10 pts Life Support or 10 PD Rigid Armor or 45 STR
> RAW> 33 5D6 Entangle Linked to EB.
>
> Again, you are working with the wrong base power. Try "Grab and Squeeze"
> or "Choke Hold".

Hmmm...the specification were snakes that can be sent to attack at range,
and you propose a hand-to-hand manoeuvre.

Score, Rat 0 for 2, one to go.

>
> RAW> I already gave the Dr. Geriatric example, which you ignored, as a case
> RAW> where supra-minimum levels were required for game-balance reasons.
>
> RAW> 60 6D6 EB NND Defenses is LS:Aging
>
> Wow! three strikes for using the wrong power. Try a Transformation attack
> instead (which would have Power Defense as the appropriate defense) with a
> - -0 SFX limitation that those few characters with Life Support vs. Aging are
> immune to the attack.

Sorry, Rat! Three strikes on you for completely ignoring the writeup
that you requestsed. The desired power is one that does stun by
shocking the metabolic pathways involved with aging. Transform does not
deliver STUN. Dr. Geriatric does have a completely separate power that
is based on a Cumulative Major Transform: Aging, but that has a lasting
effect that is hard to reverse.

Score: Rat 0 for 3.

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 18:35:57 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
> Stainless Steel Rat writes:

> > is "a dart which can penetrate limited [light] armor", the exact effect
> > described. It most certainly *WILL* do some BODY damage to an unarmored
> > target.
>
> Whether or not a real tranquilizer dart should do body, a 'comic-book' dart
> probably shouldn't....

In fact, I simply do not believe that getting hit with ten empty
tranquilizer darts (or fewer) would cause an ordinary individual to be
bleeding to death (0 BODY remaining). IMHO, either the NND or the Linked
to a KA can work. I can see using the former for STUN only attacks, and
the latter for attacks that can kill. For darts, I also have a "does no
actual BODY" limitation: SFX -0.


--
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Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 18:56:42 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Master Ambiguity List
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
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At 07:51 PM 3/24/1998 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> [re: lightspeed at SFX for normal flight rates]
>>
>> The thing is, as the thread has shown, I don't think he was asking about
>> *short* (microsecond) trips.
>
>Not to put too fine a point on it, but lightspeed is 150"/microsecond. A
>trip of 5" would be nanoseconds.

A good point at that.
(Got a pencil sharpener?) ;-]
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:03:44 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Master Ambiguity List
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> > The original question was simply how much movement is needed to
> >move at light speed in the atmosphere. The simplest answer is the 5"
> >minimum, with a SFX of short trips at light speed.
>
> The thing is, as the thread has shown, I don't think he was asking about
> *short* (microsecond) trips.

Any amount of movement will do. To do it with flight you've
demonstrated, but the amount of time taken to accelerate is quite
prohibitive.

I'd go with T-Port as a base to add multiples to. It'll be
expensive, but big deal.

Or go with X-Dim movement: Dimension = Light Speed. You'll come
out somewhere else on earth.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 19:23:55 -0800
From: Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net>
Subject: Re: Object Damage.
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At 05:56 PM 3/24/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> So if X inches is 2", then the Safe will do its minimum of 6d6. If X
>inches is 10", then the Safe will do the normal falling damage of 10d6. If
>X inches of 50", then the Safe will do its maximum damage of 15d6.
> Does this seem reasonable?

Nope. I don't think that it should do 6d6 if it is going .5" in velocity.
I think it should do .5d6 for that. I think if it is going 2", it should
do 2d6 damage.

> But going back to my previous idea: say the mass of the Safe is 800 kg,
>which would require a 30 STR to lift. So the minimum damage that the Safe
>can do from falling is 6d6.

I don't think that cross-referencing the weight of the object with the
amount of STR needed to dead lift that object is an accurate measurement of
the kind of "minimum" damage that object should do. I think STR damage is
determined to be muscle-power pushing a fist into your face, or squeezing
power, so I have a hard time buying into the "a motorcycle requires a 20
STR to lift, so it does 4d6 MINIMUM to you if it falls on you" formula.

The bottom line, Bob, is that you and I only disagree in the realm of
minimum damage. I say that it can be a lot less, based on lower velocity,
and you say there is a minimum based on it's weight. I think weight would
be irrelevant if the velocity isn't fast enough to put the whole weight to
work for it.

In your example above with a locomotive hitting a car, your example would
require the entire weight of the train to be factored in. At 15 mph, I
don't think so... ;-)

So choo-choo on that for a while...

Jim

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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:24:31 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
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> > Then don't take "stun-only".
>
> There are plenty of situations where an EB *should* be STUN only, but
> not modified by "special" defenses like Power Defense. Certain types of
> heat damage (not fire) or cold damage are a couple of examples that come
> right to mind.

Then take the Stun Only, at a -0 modifier, with Does No KB added
for -1/4.

> And once you have a hero whose attacks do STUN only in an Entangle or
> fighting against an Automaton or (generally speaking) someone inside a
> Vehicle, he's good and well screwed. And any one of those three is
> considerably easier to do than render an opponent unconscoius.

Maybe. But as I've noted, most of these attacks come with some
other attack to cover the gap. And many come with a CAK which is
absolutely no limitation in terms of power levels usable.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:26:22 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
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> TRG> Well, I've always seen it as evident that Stun Only does not
> TRG> include "does no KB". Otherwise you have a situation where you are
> TRG> assuming that doing no Body is an _advantage_ of about +1/4. So
> TRG> truely no-bod, no physical force attacks will have the no KB and Stun
> TRG> only for a -1/4 lim.
>
> The rationalle behind "Does No Body" being a -0 limitation is that "no
> collateral damage" is an equivalent tradeoff. A particular campaign may
> treat it differently, but that is the "stock" ruling.

True. I'm arguing that nowhere in the Stun Only description is it
said to remove KB as well.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:28:32 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
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> > I happen to consider Energy Blast doing no BODY for no modifier a silly
> > rules crock. I mean, at no modifier, my EB does no Knockback, and cannot
> > affect vehicles, automatons, foci, Entangles, walls, or any other inanimate
> > objects. And what's the supposedly balancing factor? I can't accidentally
> > hurt innocent bystanders, or do damage to property I don't want to damage.
>
> Which is a *big* advantage in four-color Champions games and near
> approximations. Characters who want to kill, buy RKAs; those who want to
> have the option to avoid serious bodily harm are the ones who buy EBs.

Exactly.

> The stun bolts will be (mostly) used when the object is to capture, the
> HKA and RKA when the object is to kill. Not doing BODY means that one
> does not have to worry about accidentally losing a valuable prisoner who
> can be grilled by the mentalist until he gives up all his secrets.

And can use full power at all times without accidentally harming
the walls, cars, etc that he is unable to hurt if he wants to.

> Of course, an RKA, does no BODY is worth a limitation.

Why? Then it's just the Stun Lotto at a limitation. Not worth
one in my book.


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 19:51:58 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Master Ambiguity List
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
> [re: lightspeed at SFX for normal flight rates]
>
> The thing is, as the thread has shown, I don't think he was asking about
> *short* (microsecond) trips.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but lightspeed is 150"/microsecond. A
trip of 5" would be nanoseconds.


--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 20:35:31 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
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At 09:24 PM 3/24/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> > Then don't take "stun-only".
>>
>> There are plenty of situations where an EB *should* be STUN only, but
>> not modified by "special" defenses like Power Defense. Certain types of
>> heat damage (not fire) or cold damage are a couple of examples that come
>> right to mind.
>
> Then take the Stun Only, at a -0 modifier, with Does No KB added
>for -1/4.

Or the properly balanced way: EB, Stun Only (-1/2), Does Knockback (+1/4)

>> And once you have a hero whose attacks do STUN only in an Entangle or
>> fighting against an Automaton or (generally speaking) someone inside a
>> Vehicle, he's good and well screwed. And any one of those three is
>> considerably easier to do than render an opponent unconscoius.
>
> Maybe. But as I've noted, most of these attacks come with some
>other attack to cover the gap. And many come with a CAK which is
>absolutely no limitation in terms of power levels usable.

I don't understand that last sentence....
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: VPP: Shapeshifting
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:36:10 EST
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

>>Obviously, you've never seen the Johnny Cage vs Goro fight from "Mortal
>>Kombat". The two armed fighter does kick the tar out of a four-armed
>>fighter quite nicely. ^_^
>
> I haven't seen the film, so I don't know for sure, but I'm not
convinced
>that the other qualification ("All other things being equal") applies
here.

It doesn't. Goro blew his EGO roll to overcome his overconfidence disad,
and Johnny got off a called shot to the vitals (at least, most men who
I've talked to consider _that_ area part of the vitals :) ).

Leah

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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 20:52:25 -0800
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Subject: Re: VPP: Shapeshifting
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Robert A. West wrote:

>
> Ex: Abuseman has a 60 pt cosmic VPP (+2 to control cost, so
> the real cost is 180 points). He creates a 4D6 RKA with just

A small point. The control cost is what has the +2 advantage placed
on it and that is half the size of the pool so its 60 points for the pool and
90 points for the control. All up cost, 150 points.

The pool cost can not ever be modified. (yes, an absolute. Read the
third paragraph of page 116 for those who say there are no absolutes in Hero.)
All advantages and disadvantages are applied to the control cost of the pool
which starts out at half the size of the pool.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 22:56:00 -0600
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Collision damage based on relative velocity?
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As far as I know there are no official rules for this, but some GMs may
already be using rules similar to those below, in order to calculate Move
By or Move Through damage where relative attacker and target velocities are
involved. I'd be interested in hearing from those who do, and from those
who think it's a silly waste of time.

In cases where the Attacker and Target (these may be vehicles, but needn't
be) are moving at an angle (say 45 or 60 degrees) toward or away from each
other, partial values of the Target's velocity should be used to modify the
Attacker's velocity to determine damage (excuse the crude visual aid):

----1-------
/ \
/ \
6 XBXOXBXGX 2
/ XMXAXDXEX \
< XMXEXDXOX >
\ XTXHXIXSX /
\ /
5 3
\ /

\ /
-----4--------

Using Half Values:
Condition Damage (from v only)
Attacker and target both moving from 4 to 1 (Av-Tv)/5
Attacker moving from 4 to 1; target from 1 to 4 (Av+Tv)/5
Attacker moving from 4 to 1; target from 6 to 2 (Av)/5

Attacker moving from 4 to 1; target from 5 to 2 (Av-[Tv/2])/5
Attacker moving from 4 to 1; target from 2 to 5 (Av+[Tv/2])/5

Using Third Values:
There are 90 degrees of difference between head-on collision (or
on-his-tail pursuit) and lateral interception; for greater accuracy you
could break this into thirds, at 30 and 60 degrees, and hexes break down
nicely into 30 and 60 degree segments:

Attacker moving from 4 to 1; target from the 4-5 corner
(Av-[Tv*2/3])/5
to the 1-2 corner (30 degrees short of being direct
pursuit); subtract 2/3 of target's velocity

Attacker moving from 4 to 1; target from 5 to 2 (Av-[Tv/3])/5
(60 degrees short of being direct pursuit);
subtract 1/3 of target's velocity

Attacker moving from 4 to 1; target from the 1-2 corner
(Av+[Tv*2/3])/5
to the 4-5 corner (30 degrees short of being a
head-on collision); add 2/3 of target's velocity


Attacker moving from 4 to 1; target from 2 to 5 (Av+[Tv/3])/5
(60 degrees short of being a head-on collision)


I left STR out of all the above equations, but for a Move By it's just
STR/2 + whichever one above applies, right? Anyway, the above should also
be taken into account for accidental collisions, such as when your
motorcycle hits the side of a bus at an angle, or your spaceship is hit a
glancing blow by an asteroid, and especially if you still have a ground
speed when your airplane crashes. Air speed 600 mph with a ground speed of
0 would indicate a straight vertical drop or a power dive. Any ground
speed above 0 indicates some lateral movement, and enough of that would
reduce the force of the impact, perhaps enough to let you survive the crash).

Damon



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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:04:17 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>
> >>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>
> BG> I definitely have to side with Robert on this one. Ego Attack is a
> BG> massively different Power from what he said. For one thing it works on
> BG> ECV rather than OCV/DCV. For another it's an attack vs EGO and not vs
> BG> PRE.
>
> Robert specifically said "maintain concentration" (or something to that
> effect). That is Ego (strength of mind), not Presence (strength of
> personality). His use of Presence is apparantly to justify the use of NND
> when another power models the effect he described.


The actual character was inspired by the fairly common SF/fantasy test of
courage or faith, in which a hero is faced with an extremely convincing
phantasmal adversary that the Hero knows is not real. If the hero loses
courage/faith, the adversary is overwhelming.

As I interpret this type of sequence, if one were to construct the
phantasm, it would be modelled by Images, not by Mental Illusions. This
is the reason for avoiding Mental Defense, hence not an AVLD. Courage
and Faith are, IMHO, modelled by PRE, not EGO, and certainly Mental
Defense should not come into the equation. In a sense, this is a huge
Presence Attack that does STUN rather than causing one to run away.

Moreover, IMO courage and faith share something with honesty and
pregnancy: for the most part they are true/false conditions.
Accordingly, whatever the mechanic, it should approximate an
all-or-nothing condition.

Hmmm....interesting thought. Instead of something like

50 5D6 EB NND Defense: 5 pts Power Defense.

one could get much the same effect from

20 1D6 EB AVLD/Power Defense(+1 1/2) Autofire(+1 1/2)
16 +8 OCV only to offset Autofire penalties

at a savings of 14 points. Hmmm....

In any event, I argue that, making a PRE roll is a CIRCUMSTANCE, and is
reasonably common: at least 50% of all opponents will make it;
accordingly, the attack as defined meets the letter and spirit of the NND
rule without question.

>
> >> Again, you are working with the wrong base power. Try "Grab and Squeeze"
> >> or "Choke Hold".
> BG> Which costs how much? I find neither of these in the list of
> BG> Powers.
>
> The former is a standard use of Strength and TK; the latter is a martial
> arts maneuver.

This is a villain-in-progress: I neglected to include "Uncontrolled" on
the power, which makes using TK w/manoeuvres seem less appropriate.
Moreover,

- the standard defense to Choke Hold is solid armor on the neck,
which is not appropriate to the special effect.
- given the power involved, very light rigid armor should not
suffice to avoid constriction.
- PD is not a defense to constriction unless it is rigid.

I can see putting a lot of time and effort into making something other
than an NND work, or just use an NND and go on to something else. Since
LS: No need to breathe would be a valid defense under your
interpretation, how can a valid NND become unbalancing by imposing
additional -0 limitations on it?
>

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 00:19:13 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
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> > Then take the Stun Only, at a -0 modifier, with Does No KB added
> >for -1/4.
>
> Or the properly balanced way: EB, Stun Only (-1/2), Does Knockback (+1/4)

Why is this balanced? To get a Stun only attack that does KB --
admittedly not more powerful than a normal attack that does KB, you will
be spending more APs and more END -- as well as being able to use less
dice because of AP limits. This isn't very fair. Make Stun Only a -0
modifier and allow No KB for -1/4 and things look a little better.

> > Maybe. But as I've noted, most of these attacks come with some
> >other attack to cover the gap. And many come with a CAK which is
> >absolutely no limitation in terms of power levels usable.
>
> I don't understand that last sentence....

Sorry. Taking "does no bod" allows one with a CAK to use full
force with impunity, as they're not going to accidentally kill anyone.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 02:04:46 EST
Subject: GRG's ICQ Address
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A few folks have requested our ICQ address and info privately, but I thought
I would post it to the list. There may be a few others who would like this
additional contact info. ;)

Our ICQ address is 9614976, and the handle/nickname is Gold Rush Games. Our
ICQ contact page is http://wwp.mirabilis.com/9614976.

Cheers. :)

Mark @ GRG

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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: VPP: Shapeshifting
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:27:33 -0800
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On Tuesday, March 24, 1998 7:22 AM, David Stallard wrote:


Message text written by "Robert A. West"
>>It is important, IMHO, to prohibit gratuitous limitations in a VPP.
For
example, if the VPP allows a change of powers in combat-relevant time,
then a limitation "Powers only work in daylight" is generally
gratuitous,
since when dusk comes, the character can simply switch to a form that
has
powers "only at night." Bah! Neither is worth a limitation, because
the
limitation will never matter.<<

>I noticed the ability to abuse limitations when someone on this list
posted
the example "Cosmic Dad", who had a power that was Usable Only on his
Children (-1). It struck me that you could use this limitation for
all
attacks, and simply change it to whoever you want to attack.<

Absolutely correct, as far as it goes. I didn't design the example as
a "good" use of a VPP, but as a humorous example on how the points
balanced out.

Additionally, what I didn't say was that the Control Cost for the VPP
had the limitation "All powers can only work on his children". In
some interpretations, this would allow that limitation on every power
in the VPP.

Its unfortunate, really. There are times I would love to use those
powers on other adults.<eg>

Filksinger

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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Player-bought supplements
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:37:15 -0800
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On Tuesday, March 24, 1998 11:52 AM, David Fair wrote:


<snip>
>Seriously, this seems a bit on the Ego-Trip-I-Am-GM-Call-Me-GOD side.


I actually _do_ claim to be G.O.D. Game Operations Director.:)

Filksinger

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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Speedsters
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 00:05:12 -0800
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On Tuesday, March 24, 1998 3:14 PM, Robert A. West wrote:


>Filksinger wrote:
>>
>> On Saturday, March 21, 1998 1:48 PM, Robert A. West wrote:
<snip>
>> > WORK = FORCE x DISTANCE (1)
>> > FORCE = MASS x ACCELERATION (2)
>>
>> ACCELERATION=DISTANCExTIMExTIME (3). Keep an eye on this one. It is
>
>Sorry, but you are doing your dimensional analysis incorrectly. The
>dimension of acceleration are distance/time^2, not distance*time^2.
This
>leads you into further error below.


Sorry. Error in sign. It happens.

<snip>
>
>Once you match the 980 newtons that the object weighs, there is no
net
>force to overcome, and air resistance is trivial.

True, you are not overcoming force. However, you are overcoming
inertia. If you only matched gravity, the object would not move, if
you only exceeded it by a small number, it would move very slowly.

>Noting that +1 STR
>corresponds to a 15% increase in force, we can add 70 newtons to that
>figure without changing the STR score, and that will move our 100kg
rock
>2m in a couple of seconds.


True. I didn't bother changing your number because of the relative
insignificance of the effect, and the variable nature of it due to a
lack of any definition of how fast the object was being lifted.

>>
>> Note that a newton is defined as the force required to move a 1kg
>> object 1 meter per second faster every second.
>> FORCE=MASSxDISTANCExTIMExTIME.
>
>No, Force = Mass x Distance / time^2, as stated above.


Quite correct.

>>
>> Do you agree that Tenspeed can accelerate ten times as fast as a
>> normal man? If a normal man can reach a speed of, say, 10
>> meters/second in the space of one second, then Tenspeed can reach a
>> speed of 10 meters/second in 1/10th of a second.
>>
>
>I see the garden path coming. Let me throw in some weeds:
>
>#1: A man is not a rocket. The limiting factor on a runner is not
force:
>it is the complex mechanical interactions involved in running.


Irrelevant. If you applied all of this to an object subject only to
Newton's laws, you will get the same answer, whether mine or yours.

>#2: Suppose that we strapped a rocket onto your body delivering 980
>newtons of thrust and pointed you horizontally on a frictionless
sled.
>After three seconds, you would be travelling 29.6m/s: almost 70mph!
Gee!
>I didn't know I could run so fast!


Nevertheless, such a rocket would get you to 29.6m/s in only 3/10th of
a second, if it were operating in a 10x timeframe.

>#3: Sprinters do not reach top speed in only one or two seconds, so
top
>acceleration is far less than that indicated by force.


Again not relevant. Our argument is with the physics, not the
physiological factors.

>#4: Lower Body Strength is typically around twice upper body
strength,
>which is the limiting factor in lifting, and the STR table is based
on
>lifting. IIRC, a man hooked to a harness and with good traction can
draw
>closer to 2000 newtons than 980, and can do so delivering around a
>fifth of a horsepower.

True, and relevant to a post I intend to do shortly on STR, lifting,
and benchmarks. However, I do not see the relevance here.

>Of course, at *some* point (around SPD 12 and movement 20" with NCMs)
we
>exceed the acceleration that can be achieved by even 2000 newtons, so
our
>speedster does require some additional strength in order to do this.
>However in so doing
>
>#5: You have inverted the original proposition. Before, you were
>suggesting that some additional STR could be a side-effect of clever
use
>of additional speed. Now, you are in effect arguing that additional
STR
>is a prerequisite for moving so fast in the first place. That is an
>entirely different kettle of fish.


Not at all. I am saying that they are two sides of the same coin. If,
using the origninal assumption of a speedster who operates in a
timeframe 10x our own, then the STR and speed are part and parcel of
each other.

>> Force is dependent upon acceleration, which is dependent upon time,
>> therefore force is dependent upon time.
>
>Whoa! I was considering a fairly conventional speedster who is
simply
>capable of moving and reacting fast, and intended to show (and I
believe,
>did show) that such feats cannot necessarily be used to lift or more
>heavy objects, without using a movethrough.
>
>If Tenspeed can get up some momentum and do a movethrough (and while
I
>understand the reason for limiting movethrough damage to the base
>movement, I think that the situation could and should have been
handled
>differently, otherwise hitting a solid object becomes the optimal way
to
>stop for high NCM characters) then your speed/energy argument makes
>sense, and he should be able to do serious knockback on a poor
helpless
>rock.
>
>If we are talking about a time contraction field, then we're off to
the
>races. Even if you "speed up" time locally, whatever that means, to
>objects in your "time contraction" field, physics would look normal.
>Outside the field, things look normal. The boundary is rather odd.


The boundary is the "stickiest" part of the whole proposition, no
doubt about it. It can throw all kinds of monkey wrenches into the
works, not to mention being an obscure pun for those who read the
story.:)

>If Tenspeed takes around a 10x time contraction field with him, then
to
>the outside world, his voice will be three octaves and a minor third
>higher than it would be normally, he will be known as "Motormouth"
>because his speech will be so compressed, and he will see into the
near
>Ultraviolet, while Reds and Oranges will be invisible to him, but
>incandescent lighting will look and feel like a heat lamp. He should
>have a small damage shield because touching him will cause cells to
>demand ten times as much blood as the body outside the field can
deliver.
>The list goes on.


A number of excellent possibilities! However, the last can be
eliminated if we assume that Tenspeed's flesh is somehow the boundary,
and even if you cut him your blade would still remain outside the
field.

OTOH, it makes a wonderful SFX for an NND Damage Shield.

>The problem with time dilation or contraction fields is that they
>*ought*, by the ordinary physics that we understand, to have
reciprocal
>effects on masses. Thus, if crossing a barrier appears to slow time
by a
>factor of 10, it should also apparently increase masses by the same
>factor.

Hmm.

>If true, then forces balance across the boundary, which is a nice
>property. If false, then the 10x greater momentum of air molecules
>inside the field is going to create a relative pressure at the
boundary,
>and the air will rarify to 1/10 normal density -- better buy 10pts
Life
>Support! In fact, the same thing will be true of the partial
pressure of
>water vapor from Tenspeed's sweat: he will dry out like an apple in
the
>desert. Better make that 15 pts Life Support! Oh, yes! His
biological
>clock will tick at 10x normal rate, and 1/10 atmosphere qualifies as
>partial vacuum and ... why bother? Make that 30 points of Life
Support!


Excellent! Rather than attack my physics or assumptions, you show
their unintended effects! I love it!

And deal even more blows to Niven's story. Oh, well, every silver
lining has a cloud.:)

>If these things are not true, then we are into a realm where
relativistic
>and quantum physics no longer hold, and where there is no reason to
>expect classical approximations to work either.


Hmm. So we have your variant, where forces balance at the field
surface, and Tenspeed doesn't get stronger, or mine, which has all of
these lovely unconsidered possibilities! And here I was, afraid we
would end up arguing about Freshman physics.

The only one of these effects I had considered yet (though I wasn't
trying hard yet) was the character having difficulty breathing because
of the difficulty in drawing air into the lungs. This, however, would
only apply to your and Niven's variants, and not mine.

Thank you for a most... interesting analysis.

Filksinger

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Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:08:42 -0000
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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On 3/24/98 10:12 PM Bob Greenwade (bob.greenwade@klock.com) Said:

> The special effect doesn't seem quite the same; and you've greatly
>altered the dynamic of the Power. Also, the Power doesn't work quite as
>you described, either:
> 1. The Power becomes a mind-to-mind attack, rather than one delivered by
>hand (which is what Robert described).
That is not the only SFx of a BOECV power, and is not always the case.
Psylocke's mental daggers are an example of a HKA BOECV, which In my
mind, was similar to the blade he described.
> 2. It can now be defended by Ego Defense, which may or may not be
>appropriate; it seemed to me more like an attack at the spirit level than
>at the mental level (which may seem the same thing to many, and
>legitimately so, but is different to my mind and probably is to others as
>well)
Only if it is so designated by the attacker. The attacker can specify the
defense that a BOECV power goes against, at the time of power creation.
If I specify PD, then Ego Def never enters into the picture
> 3. You stepped right out and changed whether it works against AIs and
>"logical" aliens for no apparent reason other than that it seemed "logical"
>to you.
He said the target would "suffer all the pain of being sliced by a
sword". If I see someone else being hurt by a blade that i can see, then
it is perfectly logical that I would get hurt by it as well. If you think
it through, they probably should be affected, if not then slap a lim,
"Not vs. AI's or Perfecly Logical Entities" on it as well.
> No offense intended, but I don't think you really understood what Robert
>was trying to get at in his description.

[Big Snippage]

> In the first place, nonliving items can't be affected by NND, unless the
>NND Does BODY.
> In the second place, nonliving items *do* age. Just ask anyone with a
>car from 1988 or earlier.
Your first point is True, as to the second, well, Speaking as the owner
of a 1987 Mercury Topaz, It is not the aging that has affected the car,
but the wear and tear. If (as may not be true; i missed the original
write-up) the attack ages, then un-ages the target, then the non-living
should be immune. However, if you want to affect the non-living, then the
NND should have the Does Body Advantage. This will be an expensive power,
and rightly so.

6D6 EB NND Defenses is LS:Aging seems correct, but if LS:aging is too
rare, what do you do? Obviously, you add more defenses to the NND, but
they should be Yes/No ones not Yes/No/How Much ones.


David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 00:11:38 -0800
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On Tuesday, March 24, 1998 3:25 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>
>BG> I can't see someone dying instantly from being simultaneously
>BG> hit by 20 of them, unless one went through a vital organ (like
the
>BG> heart or the brain or a vital part of the spine).
>
>A tranq dart that is built around a 1/2D6 RKA is intended to
penetrate the
>hide of an elephant or rhinoceros (1-2rPD or so; if greater than add
AP to
>the base attack). This is not the kind of needle that your physician
>sticks in your arm; these are sharp, tempered steel tubes, two to
three
>inches long and nearly a quarter of an inch in diameter, moving at
over 200
>feet per second.
>
>Damn straight 10 or 20 of these will kill a normal person.
>
The correct term is "can", not will. However, in Hero, 20 will
_always_ kill your average man, _instantly_, and any man within the
definition of "normal" in under 5 minutes, without first aid.

One of the few advantages to Fuzion is that you can simulate such
attacks better, because a character has five times as many "Hits" as
BODY. Thus, a really tiny attack might be a 1 hit attack, and Death of
a Thousand Papercuts Man, like a phoenix, arises from the ashes of the
Hero System!

Sorry, couldn't resist.:)

Filksinger

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Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:49:00 -0000
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

>>This is an RKA, Continuous, NND Vs. Life support, Requires a Successful
>>Grab and Hold.
>>Stretching, Indirect should be used to perform the Grab (you may
>>want/need some Sfx limits on the stretching, such as "Can only do what a
>>normal snake could do").
>
>Why is Constrictor's attack an RKA ? Because it does stun until somebody is
>knocked out and then starts doing killing damage ?

No, it is a killing attack because any attack that keeps you from
breathing by crushing the breath out of you, will do body damage in said
crush.

PS. your attributions are all f'd up.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:48:14 -0000
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

On 3/25/98 1:47 PM Bob Greenwade (bob.greenwade@klock.com) Said:

> I'll try this once more.

Okay...

> Suppose for just a moment (independently of what the SFX are) that I
>declare than an NND has among its defenses the state of having a minimum of
>8 points of Power Defense.

I'm always cautious about mechanics discussions that don't want to talk
about SFx.

>Does a character with 8 points of Power Defense meet the requirement? Yes.

Why?

> Does a character with 7 points of Power Defense meet the requirement? No.

Why Not?

> That is a simple Yes/No answer. How much more or less doesn't matter.

Why?

>Really, it doesn't. A target with 9 Power Defense isn't less affected than
>one with 8, and one with 6 Power Defense isn't more affected than one with
>7. If the target has the minimum, then the target is protected. If not,
>then the target either needs to have one of the alternative defenses, or be
>affected.

WHY? (Do you see a theme here?)

I don't understand the SFx of WHY. I don't let anybody (myself included)
in my campaigns state anything without a SFx justification. WHY does it
pass cleanly through 7 points, without any reduction in effectiveness,
but gets stopped coldly and completely at 8? WHY 8 and not 4? or 12? or
763? If the answer is that 8 was the point at which you thought it was a
"common enough" defense then you just got it wrong.

If you need to add these kind of kludges to suit you GM's needs for a
"common enough" defense, then you have problems in that your not
following the conception. GM's need to say "That defense is too rare, you
need to do something else to limit the effectiveness and utility of this
power or it will destroy the game world. Try adding extra time,
concentration, charges, etc." This will keep the abuse of the NND in
check without sacrificing the concept.

IMO, NND's should be defined as "got it"/"not got it" not as "got
enough"/"not got enough". Saying that you NND defense is "Got 8 points of
PowerDef"/"Not got 8 points of PowerDef" seems too mechanic-y and not
SFx-y. I still have not seen an example of a power that _requires_ a
"quantified" NND.

David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:08:02 -0000
x-sender: DFair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <DFair@sdslink.com>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

On 3/25/98 4:43 PM Bob Greenwade (bob.greenwade@klock.com) Said:

> Why would a target with 9 Power Defense be less affected than one with
>8? There's no reason for him to. He's already met the requirement, and
>suffered zero effect.
> Why would a target with 6 Power Defense be more affected than one with
>7? Again, there's no reason for him to. He's already failed the
>requirement, and will suffer full effect unless he has one of the other
>defenses.
> That is how NND works, plain and simple.
>
I do understand how NND's work, the Why's were there to ask what the SFx
justification was for this particular NND.

>>I don't understand the SFx of WHY. I don't let anybody (myself included)
>>in my campaigns state anything without a SFx justification. WHY does it
>>pass cleanly through 7 points, without any reduction in effectiveness,
>>but gets stopped coldly and completely at 8? WHY 8 and not 4? or 12? or
>>763? If the answer is that 8 was the point at which you thought it was a
>>"common enough" defense then you just got it wrong.
>
> This is an entirely different question, and one that has been discussed
>along a different thread.

No, it is really the same question. As mechanics serve only to model SFx
in game terms, any discussion of mechanics apart from SFx is moot
(although you can say things like "usually", or "for most Fx", etc).

>A poison dart is the most well-known example;
>the dart does no real damage to the target, but is powerful enough to
>penetrate light armor. The dart has to penetrate the armor (if any) for
>the drug, which is the real effect of the weapon, to get into the system.
>So if "light" armor is 3 rPD, then one of the logical defenses is having 4+
>rPD on the location hit.
> If the target has 4 rPD, then said target is unaffected. If it doesn't,
>then some other defense (such as immunity to poison) will be required, or
>the target will suffer full effect.

I have not followed that thread (who could possibly read all the mail
this list generates?), but it seems to me that this could be done as an
NND attack (the poison) linked to a 1/2d6 RKA. If, for SFx/Concept
reasons, the purchaser of the power wanted the actual Dart to do _NO_
harm (i.e., not even 1 pip of body or 1 stun), I'm sure that the GM would
make it so.
So you get:
60 6d6 EB NND (not vs. LS:Poisons, or Immunity:"This Poison)
1 1/2 D6 RKA, Linked (to above), Does no game effect damage; Only to
used to determine success in "delivery" of linked
attack (-10)
Instead of:
60 6d6 EB NND (not vs. LS:Poisons, Immunity;"This Poison", or 4+ Pts
of rPD)

I guess neither construct is perfectly canonical, but I just feel more
comfortable with mine, as the second NND seems to violate the rule for
NND's, by placing that "4+ Pts" line in there.

> A less common SFX I've seen is a "disorienting" NND that uses swirling
>lights in the target's eyes. While I generally prefer the dynamic of AVLD
>for this, I've also seen reason to use an NND vs 8 points of Sight Flash
>Defense (and a couple of other things too, like being insane or of
>extraterrestrial origin, or having inorganic optical sensors). Values of
>SFD are (the way I use them, at least) about as abritrary as STR, DEF, or
>BODY; though not quantified, higher amounts represent greater polarization
>and/or resistance to short-term optical damage.
> So why 8? Yes, it was more or less arbitrary. (After all, I'm a
>musician, not a physician; I have no better than a basic understanding (if
>that) of how the optical and nervous systems work.) I figured that the
>usual minimum of 5 was too low, but going up to 10 was excessive since only
>two or three characters had that much. It was a 4d6 NND, so I considered 8
>SFD (8 being the maximum BODY that could be rolled on 4d6), and that seemed
>to work.

I would probably model disorienting affects as dex drains, those with the
SFx you describe should probably be AVLD vs. Flash Def.
Why does 8 stop the effect cold, and 7 let it fully through? Why, if as
you say "higher amounts represent greater polarization and/or resistance
to short-term optical damage" does someone with 10 pts not suffer more
than someone with 20? That is the dynamic that I am not getting here.





David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |

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From: "Salmon, David W" <dsalmon@crt.xerox.com>
Subject: RE: Object Damage.
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 05:08:04 PST
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Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

I also respectfully submit that velocity DOES have an impact on the
amount of damage done by something. If an object is projected at fast
enough velocity it will do more damage than the DEF+BODY would normally
allow according to this newsgroup. Ex1) Water ... there are
manufacturing plants which use water jet streams to cut through steel.
Ex2) a BB ... I can throw a BB at someone and they would hardly know
they've been hit, but if I use a BB gun which projects it at a high
velocity it can penetrate skin and cause a lot more damage than one
would expect.

How would you add in damage for velocity if I have enough strength to
hurl an object faster than 30" per phase (terminal velocity)?? Granted
the object would probably shatter on impact but it should do more than
DEF+BODY because of the velocity. That also brings up the question ...
how would someone determine how FAST they can throw an object in order
to determine the above damage?? Am I way off base here ?? Thanks in
advance.


...Dave S.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Dickinson [SMTP:champion@cyberhighway.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 1998 10:24 PM
> To: champ-l@omg.org
> Subject: Re: Object Damage.
>
> At 05:56 PM 3/24/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> > So if X inches is 2", then the Safe will do its minimum of 6d6.
> If X
> >inches is 10", then the Safe will do the normal falling damage of
> 10d6. If
> >X inches of 50", then the Safe will do its maximum damage of 15d6.
> > Does this seem reasonable?
>
> Nope. I don't think that it should do 6d6 if it is going .5" in
> velocity.
> I think it should do .5d6 for that. I think if it is going 2", it
> should
> do 2d6 damage.
>
> > But going back to my previous idea: say the mass of the Safe is
> 800 kg,
> >which would require a 30 STR to lift. So the minimum damage that the
> Safe
> >can do from falling is 6d6.
>
> I don't think that cross-referencing the weight of the object with the
> amount of STR needed to dead lift that object is an accurate
> measurement of
> the kind of "minimum" damage that object should do. I think STR
> damage is
> determined to be muscle-power pushing a fist into your face, or
> squeezing
> power, so I have a hard time buying into the "a motorcycle requires a
> 20
> STR to lift, so it does 4d6 MINIMUM to you if it falls on you"
> formula.
>
> The bottom line, Bob, is that you and I only disagree in the realm of
> minimum damage. I say that it can be a lot less, based on lower
> velocity,
> and you say there is a minimum based on it's weight. I think weight
> would
> be irrelevant if the velocity isn't fast enough to put the whole
> weight to
> work for it.
>
> In your example above with a locomotive hitting a car, your example
> would
> require the entire weight of the train to be factored in. At 15 mph,
> I
> don't think so... ;-)
>
> So choo-choo on that for a while...
>
> Jim

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 05:30:37 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Collision damage based on relative velocity?
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At 10:56 PM 3/24/1998 -0600, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
> ----1-------
> / \
> / \
> 6 XBXOXBXGX 2
> / XMXAXDXEX \
> < XMXEXDXOX >
> \ XTXHXIXSX /
> \ /
> 5 3
> \ /
> \ /
> -----4--------


XSXOXMXEX
XBXOXDXYX
XGXEXTXAX
XRXOXPXEX

;-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 05:48:39 -0800
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

At 08:08 AM 3/25/1998 -0000, David Fair wrote:
>6D6 EB NND Defenses is LS:Aging seems correct, but if LS:aging is too
>rare, what do you do? Obviously, you add more defenses to the NND, but
>they should be Yes/No ones not Yes/No/How Much ones.

I'll try this once more.
Suppose for just a moment (independently of what the SFX are) that I
declare than an NND has among its defenses the state of having a minimum of
8 points of Power Defense.
Does a character with 8 points of Power Defense meet the requirement? Yes.
Does a character with 7 points of Power Defense meet the requirement? No.
That is a simple Yes/No answer. How much more or less doesn't matter.
Really, it doesn't. A target with 9 Power Defense isn't less affected than
one with 8, and one with 6 Power Defense isn't more affected than one with
7. If the target has the minimum, then the target is protected. If not,
then the target either needs to have one of the alternative defenses, or be
affected.
It's a little like speeding. The question of whether you're speeding or
not is a Yes/No question. In areas where you are fined for speeding
without regard to how far over the posted limit you were actually driving
(a rapidly shrinking category), this works a lot like NND (defense is going
under the posted speed limit). If you're under the limit, you're fine; if
you're over the limit, you get nailed, and how much over doesn't matter.
(Of course, in areas where you get fined according to how far over the
limit you were going, it's more like an AVLD, but that is indeed a
different animal.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:05:18 EST
Subject: Re: Creation Workshop
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In a message dated 3/24/98 3:45:36 PM, DBStallard@compuserve.com wrote:

<<>Heromaker is a dead line. It's being replaced entirely by Creation

Workshop.

As soon as they finish the Hero system version of Creation Workshop,

Heromaker

is going into retirement.<>>

Well, HeroMaker's not dead. We'll continue to sell it, and we'll do our best
to update to 5th Edition at the time that comes out.



<<Could someone familiar with Creation Workshop let the rest of us know how

it compares to HeroMaker? I know that CW is a Windows application, and

that you can feed it different templates to make characters from different

systems, but that's about all I know. Besides the improved interface by

going to a Windows app, how is CW better than HeroMaker when you restrict

the scope of CW to just 4th Ed Hero System Rules?

>>

The Hero System Creator is not yet done for Creation Workshop; we're still in
the process of doing the HeroMaker converter, and until that's done we're not
sure if we have to make any more changes to the Hero System Creator. This
should be complete in the next few months, though. When it's done, I'll
announce a ship date.

Creation Workshop is much more flexible than HeroMaker; you can easily alter
CW to suit your own house rules. You can also import pictures (which get
printed on the character sheets), alter the printouts, and do some other
useful things like roll dice and find names. Plus you can run automatic
conversion scripts between game systems (we're lining up official conversion
agreements for such scripts; so far I have agreements for DC Heroes, Feng
Shui, Silhouette (the Heavy Gear system), Call of Cthulhu and Ars Magica, with
more to come.

Return-Path: <daemon@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:07:28 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Player-bought supplements
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by "Tim R. Gilberg"
> Sounds like you have more problems than just unfamiliar
suppliments.<

My players are driving me to drink....

> Start docking XP. 1 per complaint that continues after GM says
it's over. Sounds like they'll start to get the point when they don't get
anything for the session.<

I always seem to forget that XP (or lack thereof) can be punishment as well
as reward. This would be even more devastating in Champions, where you
typically only get 1 or 2 points per session/adventure.

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:23:06 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.com
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At 09:47 AM 3/25/1998 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:
>> Characters, being subject to the whim of their players' design, very
>> often don't have any choice in their Powers. Laser Lad may have a Total
>> Code Against Killing even if his laser attack is reflected on his character
>> sheet as a 4d6 RKA (or even a 2 1/2d6 Penetrating RKA).
>
>And any GM who sees that construct on a character sheet should strongly
>warn Joe that this is the wrong power for Laser Lad, and should refuse to
>approve the power until he has a heart-to-heart talk with Joe. The game
>will be no fun for Joe of he finds that he cannot use is main attack.
>Anyway, this is why the canonical projector has a multipower: EB, RKA,
>NND/AVLD, and a flash or some similar special attack.

That game being no fun for Joe depends on whether Joe only enjoys a game
where he can attack his opponent head-on. On the other hand, Joe might
have a lot of fun trying to reason with opponents with little or no rED;
concentrating his attacks on bricks, Vehicles, and Foci while his teammates
handle other opponents; nervously using his Power at less than full power,
or using a lot of Placed Shots on the Hit Location Chart (if the GM is
using it for that game); or using that laser RKA in creative ways such as
cutting a lamppost so that it falls over and bonks his 0-rED opponent on
the head.
Hey, I'd consider Cyclops to have CAK (albeit not a Total one), and his
eye-beams are arguably Killing Attacks.

>> >positive benefit. Typical supers multipower:
>> >
>> >30 Multipower Reserve OAF Magic Sword
>> >6s 12D6EB Does No Body (Stun Bolts from sword)
>>
>> Slightly off Subject here, but what's the "s" for? (In Multipowers, I
>> only know "u" and "m".)
>
>"s"=standard slot; same as "m". I have also seen people not use anything
>to show standard slots, assuming that the set of powers with small costs is
>*obviously* in the multipower.

I've *never* seen that before. In five years on this list, a year and a
half of finding Hero-related websites, and collecting nearly everything
that Hero as ever put out, this was the very first time I've seen "s" in a
multipower. (And I've never seen no indicator at all, at least that I can
remember; the least I can remember seeing is an indentation, and I'm not
even sure I've seen that little.)

>> >The stun bolts will be (mostly) used when the object is to capture, the
>> >HKA and RKA when the object is to kill. Not doing BODY means that one
>> >does not have to worry about accidentally losing a valuable prisoner who
>> >can be grilled by the mentalist until he gives up all his secrets.
>>
>> In this particular case, the No BODY on the EB would be worth no
>> Limitation, or at most the -1/4 Limitation from doing no Knockback.
>
>One way to think about whether a Limitation is limiting is to suppose that
>you offered a rational powergamer the option of taking the Limitation as an
>SFX -0 limitation, would he still take the option and choose to grumble
>about being treated unfairly? If the answer is, "yes", then it is probably
>not a limitation and may even be an advantage. If the answer is, "no" then
>it probably is a limitation.
>
>Would a rational powergamer choose a no BODY EB at even cost? They do.
>They complain that they are being unfairly denied their god-given right to
>a cost break, but they choose them.

Isn't "rational powergamer" a contradiction in terms? ;-]
Seriously, I've only played with one powergamer, and he only used
Killing Attacks, and I haven't seen him in nearly a decade and a half, so I
wouldn't know his stance on this.

>> >Of course, an RKA, does no BODY is worth a limitation.
>>
>> I fail to see any reason to treat it differently from EB in this regard.
>
>The main effect of a normal attack is to do STUN. The main effect of a
>killing attack is to do BODY. Killing attacks are measurably less
>efficient on average at dealing out STUN than are normal attacks. This
>seems like a good enough set of distinctions for me.

Well, not for me. Both do STUN and BODY, so most Modifiers that apply
to one should also apply to the other.
I think we'll have to just agree to differ here.

>> >The only reason to use ISF would be if the EB had advantages already
>> >as a crock around active-point limits or to squeeze into a multipower.
>>
>> It's for the latter case that I support ISF more than anything else.
>
>Whenever one of my players is that concerned about squeezing a given
>quantity of a power into a multipower slot, I tend to ask, "Why?" Why not
>just wait a few expeditions and increase the size of the reserve, or buy an
>additional increment of EB or whatever outside the multipower -- IMHO,
>minimum buys don't apply in such cases.

I think we understand each other's position here pretty well, and just
disagree with each other. We'd probably best leave it at that.

>> >Sorry, I thought it fairly obvious that a good house rule is generally a
>> >good suggestion for an official rule and vice-versa.
>>
>> I've never considered that obvious, since I've seen both on this list
>> and in private messages several "house rules" that I considered very good
>> for the campaign in which they were used, but would never dream of wanting
>> to see published even as an optional rule in an Ultimate or genre book.
>
>Hmmm...I can't think of many cases of this, outside of rules for extremely
>specific setting, and I wouldn't mind seeing a section on "Modifying the
>rules to fit your campaign" listing such things in a genre book.
>Nevertheless, I apprehend your point, and the topic *was* clearly on
>suggested official rules -- a careless error on my part.

"Careless" may be overstating it, but consider the error (really a more
or less normal human error, based on misunderstanding) forgiven. :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:23:11 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Vehicle CPs
Cc: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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One of my players is talking about saving up experience points to buy a
motorcycle. I haven't consulted the BBB on this yet, but I'm wondering
what happens if the motorcycle gets destroyed? Does the player lose those
character points forever, or should he be given another motorcycle (perhaps
after a certain amount of time has passed) since he paid points for one?

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:24:56 -0800 (PST)
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>> often don't have any choice in their Powers. Laser Lad may have a Total
>> Code Against Killing even if his laser attack is reflected on his character
>> sheet as a 4d6 RKA (or even a 2 1/2d6 Penetrating RKA).
>
> And any GM who sees that construct on a character sheet should strongly
> warn Joe that this is the wrong power for Laser Lad, and should refuse to
> approve the power until he has a heart-to-heart talk with Joe. The game
> will be no fun for Joe of he finds that he cannot use is main attack.

Why?
Maybe that's part of the concept. Being a huge killing machine that refuses to
kill. It was Havok's concept in the old days of the X-Muchies (not current with
them now, so I won't presume there.). It's a classic concept, and a very fun
and challenging one to play. You can never just all out blast your enemy, you
have to think about it. It makes that CVK a true disad worth all those points.

> Anyway, this is why the canonical projector has a multipower: EB, RKA,
> NND/AVLD, and a flash or some similar special attack.
>
Really? Most of mine only have one or two of those. Ussually just EB.
Sometimes EB with a few variations. :)

> One way to think about whether a Limitation is limiting is to suppose that
> you offered a rational powergamer the option of taking the Limitation as an
> SFX -0 limitation, would he still take the option and choose to grumble
> about being treated unfairly? If the answer is, "yes", then it is probably
> not a limitation and may even be an advantage. If the answer is, "no" then
> it probably is a limitation.
>
> Would a rational powergamer choose a no BODY EB at even cost? They do.
> They complain that they are being unfairly denied their god-given right to
> a cost break, but they choose them.
>
This test is highly subjective, since many people accused to be
powergamers are not. And many people who are doing th accusing often are.

And with a 'ROLE-player' type, they'd often keep the lim even at -0
if it's a concept issue.

> The main effect of a normal attack is to do STUN. The main effect of a
> killing attack is to do BODY. Killing attacks are measurably less
> efficient on average at dealing out STUN than are normal attacks. This
> seems like a good enough set of distinctions for me.
>
?
??
???

KA's are highly MORE effective at doing stun than EB's. Unless you
use the hit location chart instead of the stun lottery for KA's and then ban
the increased stun multiple adv.
In my game we use hit locations for KA's, but just roll damage for
everything else. But even still, I've seen a 45 active point KA do 72 stun
in my last game. Something EB users dream of getting.

If you want a high stun attack, getting KA does no body is much
more useful than an EB. And it also allows you to step all over people
without resistant defenses.

>>>Sorry, I thought it fairly obvious that a good house rule is generally a
>>>good suggestion for an official rule and vice-versa.
>>
>> I've never considered that obvious, since I've seen both on this list
>> and in private messages several "house rules" that I considered very good
>> for the campaign in which they were used, but would never dream of wanting
>> to see published even as an optional rule in an Ultimate or genre book.
>
Agreed.
Take a look at my game's complete toss out of settings for base points,
max points, max active, etc... (I use an average power level, and ignore point
totals). It's something I definatly don't think new GM's with a brand new
BBB could handle, but for an experienced set of gamers, it completley kills
power gaming.

> Hmmm...I can't think of many cases of this, outside of rules for extremely
> specific setting, and I wouldn't mind seeing a section on "Modifying the
> rules to fit your campaign" listing such things in a genre book.

Also true, and I could see a use for a rule like mine in a book about
'advanced hero tactics'. But it would take a good chapter to explain it (I'm
still trying to get some of my players to understand it, they keep thinking I
meant for them to be tight on their points, and then hope to get past me, when
what I meant was that I didn't care less about points... :) ).

But I'm rambling. Yeah, it might be nice someday to see a book of house
rules from fans across the world. More than likely it'd be Hero Plus if
anything. Which is sad.
But it would be neat to see anyway.

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Object Damage.
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:37:14 -0800 (PST)
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> results. Remember that no object on Earth is ever really stationary: we
> whirl at several hundred mph around the center of the earth, as the earth
> orbits at several thousand mph around the Sun, which orbits the center of
> the Galaxy at several million mph, which is moving with respect to the
> 2.7K background radiation that may (or may not) define the frame of the
> Big Bang.
>
Heh...

Legion of Subsitute Heroes Tryouts:

"So Non-Relative Boy, what's your power?"

"I have the power to remain absolutely still, in one place."

"oook, what good is that?"

Suddenly the entire galaxy goes ripping away from "Non-Relative Boy"
as he reamins 'Absolutely Still' while the cosmos around him moves about...


Heh... I'll have to remember this one.

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:44:31 -0800
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

At 10:48 AM 3/25/1998 -0000, David Fair wrote:
>On 3/25/98 1:47 PM Bob Greenwade (bob.greenwade@klock.com) Said:
>
>> I'll try this once more.
>
>Okay...
>
>> Suppose for just a moment (independently of what the SFX are) that I
>>declare than an NND has among its defenses the state of having a minimum of
>>8 points of Power Defense.
>
>I'm always cautious about mechanics discussions that don't want to talk
>about SFx.
>
>>Does a character with 8 points of Power Defense meet the requirement? Yes.
>
>Why?

Because having 8 points of Power Defense is within the realm of having a
minimum of 8 points of Power Defense.

>> Does a character with 7 points of Power Defense meet the requirement?
No.
>
>Why Not?

Because having 7 points of Power Defense is less than the minimum
requirement of 8 points of Power Defense.

>> That is a simple Yes/No answer. How much more or less doesn't matter.
>
>Why?

Because defenses against NND are all-or-nothing affairs. Either you
meet the given requirement, in which case the attack has no effect, or you
don't meet the given requirement, in which case the attack has full effect.
Whether you fall way short of the requirement or just miss it is
immaterial; you're still going to get the full effect. Whether you just
barely meet the requirement or not is immaterial; you still suffer no
effect at all.

>>Really, it doesn't. A target with 9 Power Defense isn't less affected than
>>one with 8, and one with 6 Power Defense isn't more affected than one with
>>7. If the target has the minimum, then the target is protected. If not,
>>then the target either needs to have one of the alternative defenses, or be
>>affected.
>
>WHY? (Do you see a theme here?)

Why would a target with 9 Power Defense be less affected than one with
8? There's no reason for him to. He's already met the requirement, and
suffered zero effect.
Why would a target with 6 Power Defense be more affected than one with
7? Again, there's no reason for him to. He's already failed the
requirement, and will suffer full effect unless he has one of the other
defenses.
That is how NND works, plain and simple.

>I don't understand the SFx of WHY. I don't let anybody (myself included)
>in my campaigns state anything without a SFx justification. WHY does it
>pass cleanly through 7 points, without any reduction in effectiveness,
>but gets stopped coldly and completely at 8? WHY 8 and not 4? or 12? or
>763? If the answer is that 8 was the point at which you thought it was a
>"common enough" defense then you just got it wrong.
[Other equally valid arguments snipped for brevity, such as it is]

This is an entirely different question, and one that has been discussed
along a different thread. A poison dart is the most well-known example;
the dart does no real damage to the target, but is powerful enough to
penetrate light armor. The dart has to penetrate the armor (if any) for
the drug, which is the real effect of the weapon, to get into the system.
So if "light" armor is 3 rPD, then one of the logical defenses is having 4+
rPD on the location hit.
If the target has 4 rPD, then said target is unaffected. If it doesn't,
then some other defense (such as immunity to poison) will be required, or
the target will suffer full effect.
A less common SFX I've seen is a "disorienting" NND that uses swirling
lights in the target's eyes. While I generally prefer the dynamic of AVLD
for this, I've also seen reason to use an NND vs 8 points of Sight Flash
Defense (and a couple of other things too, like being insane or of
extraterrestrial origin, or having inorganic optical sensors). Values of
SFD are (the way I use them, at least) about as abritrary as STR, DEF, or
BODY; though not quantified, higher amounts represent greater polarization
and/or resistance to short-term optical damage.
So why 8? Yes, it was more or less arbitrary. (After all, I'm a
musician, not a physician; I have no better than a basic understanding (if
that) of how the optical and nervous systems work.) I figured that the
usual minimum of 5 was too low, but going up to 10 was excessive since only
two or three characters had that much. It was a 4d6 NND, so I considered 8
SFD (8 being the maximum BODY that could be rolled on 4d6), and that seemed
to work.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:49:20 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Object Damage.
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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At 10:26 AM 3/25/1998 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:
>Actually, that may be your interpretation of "Comic Book Physics", but it
>is not mine, and it is not real-world physics. The extra damage that a
>car *is* likely to take comes from being carried along the tracks for
>some distance, hitting ties, poles, signals and gantries, rolling over,
>and being finally ground under the wheels. If we eliminate such factors,
>which qualify in game terms as knockback, then there is no difference.

[Extremely intelligent and 100% valid and, as far as I know, correct
argument regarding physics, which I didn't 100% understand but will review
later, snipped]

>In effect, the fact that the impact does knockback reduces the damage
>ever so slightly: sort of a roll-with-the-punch. What is the difference?
>Well, the situations are not quite identical: the stationary locomotive
>was being steadied by a frictional force, which accounts for the
>additional damage.

That said... I would still rather fall out of a third-story window and
land on a piano, than have said piano fall out of a third-story window and
land on me. Can you think of a reason that I shouldn't?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:02:46 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
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> > Anyway, this is why the canonical projector has a multipower: EB, RKA,
> > NND/AVLD, and a flash or some similar special attack.
> >
> Really? Most of mine only have one or two of those. Ussually just EB.
> Sometimes EB with a few variations. :)

I rarely see an Energy Projector without at least two
damage-causing attacks. Generally something like normal EB, NND,
Explosion, AE, or RKA. Having one stun-only allows for less caution.

> > Would a rational powergamer choose a no BODY EB at even cost? They do.
> > They complain that they are being unfairly denied their god-given right to
> > a cost break, but they choose them.
> >
> This test is highly subjective, since many people accused to be
> powergamers are not. And many people who are doing th accusing often are.

And the latter makes what difference? Being able to recognize a
power gamer is not precluded by being one.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:04:27 -0600 (CST)
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Vehicle CPs
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org


David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> wrote:
>
> One of my players is talking about saving up experience points to buy a
> motorcycle. I haven't consulted the BBB on this yet, but I'm wondering
> what happens if the motorcycle gets destroyed? Does the player lose those
> character points forever, or should he be given another motorcycle (perhaps
> after a certain amount of time has passed) since he paid points for one?
>

If it's a regular plain vanilla motorcycle, just let him have it. Unless
it does something extra or is used in combat, he shouldn't have to pay
points for it, IMO. You could also use this to show what a flexible, nice
GM you are as ammunition against your whiny players. (grin)

If it's NOT a regular plain vanilla motorcycle and he's paid points for it
and it gets destroyed, then treat it like a regular focus limitation. The
points aren't 'gone' but the character may have to wait a while before
the 'Ubercycle' can be rebuilt/ repaired/ whatever.

I'd be careful about putting offensive powers through a vehicle focus as well.

Curt



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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:26:49 -0800
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Vehicle CPs
Cc: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

At 04:36 PM 3/25/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>One of my players is talking about saving up experience points to buy a
>motorcycle. I haven't consulted the BBB on this yet, but I'm wondering
>what happens if the motorcycle gets destroyed? Does the player lose those
>character points forever, or should he be given another motorcycle (perhaps
>after a certain amount of time has passed) since he paid points for one?

I'd have the character spend new money, but not new points, on a new
one. If the character has the money to buy a new one right away, then he
may do so; if not, then he'll need to roleplay either saving up for one,
collecting insurance money from whatever destroyed the first one (and
perhaps fighting with the insurance company about whether or not it was
covered), or getting a bank loan or other financing.
The only "secondary entities" that should be lost when destroyed are
Duplicates (which basically are a part of the character) and Multiform
(which essentially *are* the character; kill a Multiform, and the character
is dead).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:26:49 -0800
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Vehicle CPs
Cc: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org>
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At 04:36 PM 3/25/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>One of my players is talking about saving up experience points to buy a
>motorcycle. I haven't consulted the BBB on this yet, but I'm wondering
>what happens if the motorcycle gets destroyed? Does the player lose those
>character points forever, or should he be given another motorcycle (perhaps
>after a certain amount of time has passed) since he paid points for one?

I'd have the character spend new money, but not new points, on a new
one. If the character has the money to buy a new one right away, then he
may do so; if not, then he'll need to roleplay either saving up for one,
collecting insurance money from whatever destroyed the first one (and
perhaps fighting with the insurance company about whether or not it was
covered), or getting a bank loan or other financing.
The only "secondary entities" that should be lost when destroyed are
Duplicates (which basically are a part of the character) and Multiform
(which essentially *are* the character; kill a Multiform, and the character
is dead).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:47:55 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.com
Subject: Re: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> >> I happen to consider Energy Blast doing no BODY for no modifier a silly
> >> rules crock.
> >
> >Which is a *big* advantage in four-color Champions games and near
> >approximations. Characters who want to kill, buy RKAs; those who want
>
> To start with, characters don't buy RKA or EB. *Players* buy RKA or EB.

Oh, bother! This is a fairly common colloquialism.


> Characters, being subject to the whim of their players' design, very
> often don't have any choice in their Powers. Laser Lad may have a Total
> Code Against Killing even if his laser attack is reflected on his character
> sheet as a 4d6 RKA (or even a 2 1/2d6 Penetrating RKA).

And any GM who sees that construct on a character sheet should strongly
warn Joe that this is the wrong power for Laser Lad, and should refuse to
approve the power until he has a heart-to-heart talk with Joe. The game
will be no fun for Joe of he finds that he cannot use is main attack.
Anyway, this is why the canonical projector has a multipower: EB, RKA,
NND/AVLD, and a flash or some similar special attack.

> >positive benefit. Typical supers multipower:
> >
> >30 Multipower Reserve OAF Magic Sword
> >6s 12D6EB Does No Body (Stun Bolts from sword)
>
> Slightly off Subject here, but what's the "s" for? (In Multipowers, I
> only know "u" and "m".)

"s"=standard slot; same as "m". I have also seen people not use anything
to show standard slots, assuming that the set of powers with small costs is
*obviously* in the multipower.

>
> >The stun bolts will be (mostly) used when the object is to capture, the
> >HKA and RKA when the object is to kill. Not doing BODY means that one
> >does not have to worry about accidentally losing a valuable prisoner who
> >can be grilled by the mentalist until he gives up all his secrets.
>
> In this particular case, the No BODY on the EB would be worth no
> Limitation, or at most the -1/4 Limitation from doing no Knockback.

One way to think about whether a Limitation is limiting is to suppose that
you offered a rational powergamer the option of taking the Limitation as an
SFX -0 limitation, would he still take the option and choose to grumble
about being treated unfairly? If the answer is, "yes", then it is probably
not a limitation and may even be an advantage. If the answer is, "no" then
it probably is a limitation.

Would a rational powergamer choose a no BODY EB at even cost? They do.
They complain that they are being unfairly denied their god-given right to
a cost break, but they choose them.


>
> >Of course, an RKA, does no BODY is worth a limitation.
>
> I fail to see any reason to treat it differently from EB in this regard.

The main effect of a normal attack is to do STUN. The main effect of a
killing attack is to do BODY. Killing attacks are measurably less
efficient on average at dealing out STUN than are normal attacks. This
seems like a good enough set of distinctions for me.


> >The only reason to use ISF would be if the EB had advantages already
> >as a crock around active-point limits or to squeeze into a multipower.
>
> It's for the latter case that I support ISF more than anything else.

Whenever one of my players is that concerned about squeezing a given
quantity of a power into a multipower slot, I tend to ask, "Why?" Why not
just wait a few expeditions and increase the size of the reserve, or buy an
additional increment of EB or whatever outside the multipower -- IMHO,
minimum buys don't apply in such cases.

> >
> >Sorry, I thought it fairly obvious that a good house rule is generally a
> >good suggestion for an official rule and vice-versa.
>
> I've never considered that obvious, since I've seen both on this list
> and in private messages several "house rules" that I considered very good
> for the campaign in which they were used, but would never dream of wanting
> to see published even as an optional rule in an Ultimate or genre book.

Hmmm...I can't think of many cases of this, outside of rules for extremely
specific setting, and I wouldn't mind seeing a section on "Modifying the
rules to fit your campaign" listing such things in a genre book.
Nevertheless, I apprehend your point, and the topic *was* clearly on
suggested official rules -- a careless error on my part.

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:26:19 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Object Damage.
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 05:16 PM 3/24/1998 -0800, Jim Dickinson wrote:
> >At 05:35 AM 3/24/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >> Well, the problem with the first part is that it isn't really like being
> >>knocked back into a wall; it's more like the wall being knocked back into
> >>*you.* And all things considered I think I'd rather run into a wall than
> >>vice versa.
> >
> >How does the fact that one object has velocity, and the other doesn't,
> >change if the roles change? I'm no physics major, mind you, and don't
> >profess to be. And I certainly don't think many comic books are based on
> >physics anyway...so that aside...
>
> Inertia from mass. A car hitting a stationary train at 15 mph is going
> to suffer a lot less than if the train is moving and the car is stationary.
>

Actually, that may be your interpretation of "Comic Book Physics", but it
is not mine, and it is not real-world physics. The extra damage that a
car *is* likely to take comes from being carried along the tracks for
some distance, hitting ties, poles, signals and gantries, rolling over,
and being finally ground under the wheels. If we eliminate such factors,
which qualify in game terms as knockback, then there is no difference.

The fundamental principle of kinematic relativity (which dates back to
Newton) is that you can view events in any "rest frame" and get the same
results. Remember that no object on Earth is ever really stationary: we
whirl at several hundred mph around the center of the earth, as the earth
orbits at several thousand mph around the Sun, which orbits the center of
the Galaxy at several million mph, which is moving with respect to the
2.7K background radiation that may (or may not) define the frame of the
Big Bang.

Imagine a car of one metric ton moving at 10m/s into a stationary
locomotive. Given friction, the train is, functionally, an immovable
object, so the car goes "smash" and we now have a car and train at rest,
while the car is crumpled about half its length: one meter.

Kinetic Energy expended on destroying the car = 100,000 joules.
Force acting on the car and occupants: 100,000 newtons.
Momentum before impact: 10,000 newton-secs
Momentum after impact: zero.
Duration of impact = momentum/force = 0.1 seconds

Now, imagine a locomotive of 200 metric tons moving at 10m/s towards a
stationary car.

Kinetic energy before: 20,000,000 joules
Momentum of train before: 2,000,000 newton-secs.

After the impact, the train and car are moving as a single object. By
conservation of momentum:

Momentum of train+car after = 2,000,000 newton-secs,
Velocity of train+car after = 9.95m/s
Kinetic energy after = 201 tons x (9.95m/s)^2 = 19,900,498 joules
Kinetic energy used to destroy car: 99,502 joules,
Force acting on car: 99,502 newtons.

In effect, the fact that the impact does knockback reduces the damage
ever so slightly: sort of a roll-with-the-punch. What is the difference?
Well, the situations are not quite identical: the stationary locomotive
was being steadied by a frictional force, which accounts for the
additional damage.


--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:02:15 -0800
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

At 01:08 PM 3/25/1998 -0000, David Fair wrote:
>>A poison dart is the most well-known example;
>>the dart does no real damage to the target, but is powerful enough to
>>penetrate light armor. The dart has to penetrate the armor (if any) for
>>the drug, which is the real effect of the weapon, to get into the system.
>>So if "light" armor is 3 rPD, then one of the logical defenses is having 4+
>>rPD on the location hit.
>> If the target has 4 rPD, then said target is unaffected. If it doesn't,
>>then some other defense (such as immunity to poison) will be required, or
>>the target will suffer full effect.
>
>I have not followed that thread (who could possibly read all the mail
>this list generates?), but it seems to me that this could be done as an
>NND attack (the poison) linked to a 1/2d6 RKA. If, for SFx/Concept
>reasons, the purchaser of the power wanted the actual Dart to do _NO_
>harm (i.e., not even 1 pip of body or 1 stun), I'm sure that the GM would
>make it so.
>So you get:
> 60 6d6 EB NND (not vs. LS:Poisons, or Immunity:"This Poison)
> 1 1/2 D6 RKA, Linked (to above), Does no game effect damage; Only to
> used to determine success in "delivery" of linked
>attack (-10)
>Instead of:
> 60 6d6 EB NND (not vs. LS:Poisons, Immunity;"This Poison", or 4+ Pts
>of rPD)
>
>I guess neither construct is perfectly canonical, but I just feel more
>comfortable with mine, as the second NND seems to violate the rule for
>NND's, by placing that "4+ Pts" line in there.

That you feel more comfortable with yours if you prerogative. I'm not
going to try to dissuade you from using that approach in your game.
Really, I'm not. I'm seriously not going to consider your game inferior in
any way just because that's the way you prefer things.
I would like to point out, though, that your NND also needs "failure of
RKA to penetrate the target's armor" as a Defense; and that, unless I'm
missing something fairly significant (and it wouldn't be the first time),
you're actually paying more points for a less-effective attack.

>> A less common SFX I've seen is a "disorienting" NND that uses swirling
>>lights in the target's eyes. While I generally prefer the dynamic of AVLD
>>for this, I've also seen reason to use an NND vs 8 points of Sight Flash
>>Defense (and a couple of other things too, like being insane or of
>>extraterrestrial origin, or having inorganic optical sensors). Values of
>>SFD are (the way I use them, at least) about as abritrary as STR, DEF, or
>>BODY; though not quantified, higher amounts represent greater polarization
>>and/or resistance to short-term optical damage.
>> So why 8? Yes, it was more or less arbitrary. (After all, I'm a
>>musician, not a physician; I have no better than a basic understanding (if
>>that) of how the optical and nervous systems work.) I figured that the
>>usual minimum of 5 was too low, but going up to 10 was excessive since only
>>two or three characters had that much. It was a 4d6 NND, so I considered 8
>>SFD (8 being the maximum BODY that could be rolled on 4d6), and that seemed
>>to work.
>
>I would probably model disorienting affects as dex drains, those with the
>SFx you describe should probably be AVLD vs. Flash Def.
>Why does 8 stop the effect cold, and 7 let it fully through? Why, if as
>you say "higher amounts represent greater polarization and/or resistance
>to short-term optical damage" does someone with 10 pts not suffer more
>than someone with 20? That is the dynamic that I am not getting here.

That's a perfectly fair question; given that it's a largely (if not
purely) science-fictional effect (on the order of Star Trek's phasers), my
inability to describe it and yours to understand it go hand-in-hand. And,
as we both agree, this type of effect as AVLD vs SFD.
I don't recall exactly the reason that was given for using NND for this
instead of AVLD. It was the player's idea, not mine, and he was much
better at explaining it than I'll ever be (and he took only two sentences
to do it, too). The explanation was something along the lines of being
related to subliminal effects (which, as a rule, either affect the target
or don't), but which are stopped by a certain level of resistance to
visible light.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:10:57 -0500
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: New Powers / Wild Cards
Errors-To: owner-champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@omg.org
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To: champ-l@omg.org

>The game is supposed to eventually evolve into a classic four-color
>superhero game. However, at least for the initial sessions, there
>will not be any powered opposition. I'm hoping somebody has clever
>ideas for the 'bad guys', other than the obvious: organized crime,
>street gangs, biker gangs.
>
>
You mentioned in another post that the supers are all descendents
of shapeshifting aliens. I'd go with the obvious and make the
initial conflicts revolve around those aliens, whether through
battles against the aliens themselves or against an organization
(or organizations) who know about the aliens and have some sort
of interest. This firmly establishes some of the campaign concepts,
eases suspension of disbelief as you have a common root for all the
weirdness, and lets you reveal some interesting background to
the PC's in an interesting way.

You didn't mention why it is that the super powers are only
surfacing now. Is there a catalyst of some sort? A reason why
the powers started working, or a reason why the supers are
just starting to appear publicly? If there is a catalyst, that
might make a good source of early conflicts as well. If it's
a good enough catalyst, you could even start the game _before_
the PC's become heroes and let the events motivate them into
superherodom.

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From: Geoff Speare <Geoff@igcn.com>
Subject: PLEASE READ: LIST IS MOVING!
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:24:00 -0500
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To: champ-l@omg.org

Greetings,

After many long years (and many long discussions :), I'm ceding the Hero
System email list to John Desmarais, a long-time subscriber and Hero
fan. As of right now, the addresses for the list are:

hero-l@sysabend.org
champ-l@sysabend.org (These both go to the same place, take your
pick)

For administrative stuff, send to one of:

champ-l-request@sysabend.org
hero-l-request@sysabend.org
hero-request@sysabend.org (again, all of these go to the same place)

Complaints and other matters should go to:

owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

The @omg.org addresses will continue to work indefinitely (as forwards
to the above addresses), but they may be cut off at any time (I don't
work there any more). I strongly suggest that you start using the new
addresses right away.

As for me, I'll be taking a sabbatical from the list, but I'm sure I'll
be back. (For those who are interested, I've just switched jobs, and I'm
in the process of buying a house, so things are a bit busy.) Many thanks
to all of those who I've talked with over the years...I'm sure I'll see
you again soon!

Farewell,

Geoff Speare
geoff@igcn.com

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:36:44 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Money
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> I'd have the character spend new money, but not new points, on a new
one. If the character has the money to buy a new one right away, then he
may do so; if not, then he'll need to roleplay either saving up for one,
collecting insurance money from whatever destroyed the first one (and
perhaps fighting with the insurance company about whether or not it was
covered), or getting a bank loan or other financing.<

That opens up a whole new can of worms... I've never been sure how to
handle money in the Hero System, and the BBB doesn't give you much in the
way of guidelines (basically, you're rich, average, or poor). In a past
campaign, I had a Spider-Man type character who was rich, and wanted to buy
headsets for the team so they could communicate in combat. This should be
chump-change for his character, but it could take time to accumulate the
experience points to do such a thing.

I didn't mention the money issue in my 5E questionnaire, but I sure wish I
had.... It's especially confusing for people coming into the system:

Newbie: "I want to buy a gun."
GM: "Ok, build it with powers and see if you have the points."
Newbie: "But I just want one of those Dirty Harry revolvers...my character
is rich. Don't they have an equipment list? Oh, how much money does my
character have anyway?"
GM: "In Hero, you have to buy everything with points."
Newbie: "Huh?"

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:53:46 -0600
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net>
To: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: PLEASE READ: LIST IS MOVING!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org


Many thanks for years of great service, Geoff! Come back soon, ya hear?

Guy
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

On 3/25/98, at 1:42 PM, Geoff Speare wrote:

>Greetings,
>
>After many long years (and many long discussions :), I'm ceding the Hero
>System email list to John Desmarais, a long-time subscriber and Hero
>fan. As of right now, the addresses for the list are:
>
>hero-l@sysabend.org
>champ-l@sysabend.org (These both go to the same place, take your
>pick)
>
>For administrative stuff, send to one of:
>
>champ-l-request@sysabend.org
>hero-l-request@sysabend.org
>hero-request@sysabend.org (again, all of these go to the same place)
>
>Complaints and other matters should go to:
>
>owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>
>The @omg.org addresses will continue to work indefinitely (as forwards
>to the above addresses), but they may be cut off at any time (I don't
>work there any more). I strongly suggest that you start using the new
>addresses right away.
>
>As for me, I'll be taking a sabbatical from the list, but I'm sure I'll
>be back. (For those who are interested, I've just switched jobs, and I'm
>in the process of buying a house, so things are a bit busy.) Many thanks
>to all of those who I've talked with over the years...I'm sure I'll see
>you again soon!
>
>Farewell,
>
>Geoff Speare
>geoff@igcn.com

Uncommon Solutions...when you need a better way!
http://www.uncommonsolutions.com

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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org&>
"Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 19:54:24
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Presence Attacks
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 02:12:54 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

>
>> > +4d6? That's low. Violent action, exhibiting powers,
>> >mega-extreme reputation.
>>
>> He doesn't need much of a bonus. If you look at the film, you'll notice
>> he isn't eating people, just burning their houses.
>
> And that's not a violent action?

Yes, but +1d6, not +3d6 (eating people and splattering bits around)
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org&> "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 19:59:39
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Secret ID / Public ID
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 18:10:21 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:

>qts wrote:
>>
>>
>> I'm not sure that I go along with that: Public Id is for better or for
>> worse (everyone can easily find out who they are), whereas Reputation
>> is one or the other (everyone knows X about them).
>>
>> To take Mrs Thatcher/Iron Maiden as an example, she would have Public
>> ID: Prime Minister of GB, and would have Reputation: Stateswoman, and
>> she might have Secret ID: Iron Maiden and (as Iron Maiden) Reputation:
>> Honourable.


>I still say that you have the wrong disadvantage. IMHO, if Secret ID
>would not be permissible for a particular application, then Public ID
>would not. Now, can you imagine the Prime Minister of the UK having a
>Secret ID? Listen to the BBC:
>
> The second Falklands Crisis is careening towards war, and still
> no one knows where our anonymous Prime Minster is. Since the
> Lords and Commons consented to the closing of 10 Downing St.,
> and the installation of the untraceable PM-Phone, there has been
> concern that something of this nature might occur.
>
>Does the PM wear a mask and skintights during Question Period? Geeze!
>
>The fact is that, in the ordinary course of events, everyone knows who
>cares, knows who the Head of State, Head of Gov't and so on are. Public
>ID has no place here any more than secret ID does; what you want is
>Watched by Press, Public, Opposition and Government.
>
>Perks:
>
>9 Head of Government, but not Head of State.
>25 Various Contacts
>15 Various Favors
>50 Political Followers: 32 followers worth 20 pts each.
>
>Skills:
>
>9 PS: Politician +3
>3 PS: Law
>3 KS: Law
>3 Acting
>3 Bribery
>3 Bureaucratics
>3 Conversation
>3 High Society
>5 Oratory +1
>5 Persuasion +1
>3 Seduction (fast-talk)
>24 3 Skill Levels w/ all political skills
>---
>166 Total Powers
>
>Disadvantages
>
>13 Watched by Opposition (as pow, NCI) 14-
>12 Watched by Press (as pow, NCI) 14-
>15 Watched by Government (more pow, NCI) 14-
>10 Watched by Public (more pow, NCI) 8- (when crisis, etc.)
>20 Reputation 14- Iron Lady (extreme)
>5 Professional Rival (Shadow PM)
>5 Professional Rival (Minister of the Exchequer)
>3 Package Bonus
>---
>83 Total Disadvantages
>83+ Net Cost of Package
>---
>166 Total

Hahahaha! Love the write-up. But you still need Public ID - one can be
a PM and do it (relatively) quietly and not be widely known. Virtually
everyone in the Western world knows of Lady Thatcher; how many know of
the PM of Denmark?

qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "HERO System Mailing List" <champ-l@omg.org&> "Sakura" <jeffj@io.com>
Cc: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 20:02:59
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: VPP: More Questions
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 22:12:33 -0600 (CST), Sakura wrote:

>
>OK...I have a couple questions on how to increase (or perhaps limit) the
>flexibility of Variable Power Pools.
>
>Normally, if you have X points in your pool, you can have X Real Points
>worth of powers with no more than X active points each.
>
>What if I wanted to have X active points worth of powers, but they were
>limited to 1/2 X Active Points? Hmm...I suppose I could buy two separate
>pools, but I think having two 20 point pools is less versatile than having
>1 40 point pool, even though they'd cost the same amount.
>
>My second question is the reverse of the first one: What if I wanted to
>have a 60 pt pool that could only have 30 Real Points of powers in it?
>What would the limitation be?

I've no idea on this, but it does beg the question: why?
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "HERO System Mailing List" <champ-l@omg.org&> "Sakura" <jeffj@io.com>
Cc: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 20:02:59
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: VPP: More Questions
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 22:12:33 -0600 (CST), Sakura wrote:

>
>OK...I have a couple questions on how to increase (or perhaps limit) the
>flexibility of Variable Power Pools.
>
>Normally, if you have X points in your pool, you can have X Real Points
>worth of powers with no more than X active points each.
>
>What if I wanted to have X active points worth of powers, but they were
>limited to 1/2 X Active Points? Hmm...I suppose I could buy two separate
>pools, but I think having two 20 point pools is less versatile than having
>1 40 point pool, even though they'd cost the same amount.
>
>My second question is the reverse of the first one: What if I wanted to
>have a 60 pt pool that could only have 30 Real Points of powers in it?
>What would the limitation be?

I've no idea on this, but it does beg the question: why?
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
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Date: 25 Mar 1998 15:04:51 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:

>> Damn straight 10 or 20 of these will kill a normal person.

BG> Instantly, even without hits to vital organs (as defined above)?

Maybe. It is more a matter of systemic shock than real trauma.

BG> And would 30 kill a rhino?

Probably not. A rhino has significantly more BODY to start with than a
normal person, and has some small ammount of resistant PD.

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: [Hero5th Ambiguity] Money
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:20:32 -0800 (PST)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

List NOTE:
If your reply is not DIRECTLY related to this issue, then
please, by all means, edit the subject. That way Steve Long
knows where it all starts.

Ok;

Here's one more for the 5th edition list of 'answer this please'
issues. Someone who's know his address please forward this on the Steve Long.

"Please give some guidlines for ways to use money, and advice on
ways for GM's to deal with the money vs. points argument."

Not something as definate and locked in as GURPS' money system,
but perhaps a 'money points' proposal, or comments on when to just
say 'you can / cannot afford it. Or both, as two possible systems GM's
could choose from...
Or... well, anything. Just give us something. :)


> That opens up a whole new can of worms... I've never been sure how to
> handle money in the Hero System, and the BBB doesn't give you much in the
> way of guidelines (basically, you're rich, average, or poor). In a past
> campaign, I had a Spider-Man type character who was rich, and wanted to buy
> headsets for the team so they could communicate in combat. This should be
> chump-change for his character, but it could take time to accumulate the
> experience points to do such a thing.
>
> I didn't mention the money issue in my 5E questionnaire, but I sure wish I
> had.... It's especially confusing for people coming into the system:
>

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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
Subject: Re: Vehicle CPs
To: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Bob Greenwade)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:25:50 -0800 (PST)
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

> The only "secondary entities" that should be lost when destroyed are
> Duplicates (which basically are a part of the character) and Multiform
> (which essentially *are* the character; kill a Multiform, and the character
> is dead).

What if the killed form was a seperate body? Or what if it's two
totally seperate people who occupy the same time/space in reality, only one
can exist in this reality at a time. Maybe they're even struggling to become
the one who permanently occupies this reality over the other.
In both those special effects, kill one body and the other just moves
in as a permanent form, no longer having/being cursed by the other entity.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Mail-Copies-To: never
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes:

RAW> As I interpret this type of sequence, if one were to construct the
RAW> phantasm, it would be modelled by Images, not by Mental Illusions.
RAW> This is the reason for avoiding Mental Defense, hence not an AVLD.
RAW> Courage and Faith are, IMHO, modelled by PRE, not EGO, and certainly
RAW> Mental Defense should not come into the equation.

As I previously stated, I disagree. Ego is the "strength" of one's mind;
Presence is what the person projects. I like to use Adolph Hitler as an
example of this, an ugly coward with a powerful ability to project. High
Presence, low COM and Ego.

RAW> In a sense, this is a huge Presence Attack that does STUN rather than
RAW> causing one to run away.

At this point I need to point out that Ego may also be used to defend
against Presence Attacks. One uses the higher of the two, Ego or Presence.

RAW> Moreover, IMO courage and faith share something with honesty and
RAW> pregnancy: for the most part they are true/false conditions.
RAW> Accordingly, whatever the mechanic, it should approximate an
RAW> all-or-nothing condition.

I clearly disagree with that philosophy. Having gone through two "crisis
of faiths", and having told my share of incomplete truths, I can tell you
from first-hand experience that they are not absolute yes/no conditions.

RAW> Hmmm....interesting thought. Instead of something like

RAW> 50 5D6 EB NND Defense: 5 pts Power Defense.

RAW> one could get much the same effect from

RAW> 20 1D6 EB AVLD/Power Defense(+1 1/2) Autofire(+1 1/2)
RAW> 16 +8 OCV only to offset Autofire penalties

RAW> at a savings of 14 points. Hmmm....

Bzzt! Bad thinking. And why is the damned thing Autofire?

[...]

RAW> This is a villain-in-progress: I neglected to include "Uncontrolled" on
RAW> the power, which makes using TK w/manoeuvres seem less appropriate.
RAW> Moreover,

Uncontrolled TK is not necessarilly inappropriate. It just requires the
appropriate "reasonably common or obvious" deactivation conditions required
of all Uncontrolled powers in addition to the standard "get out of a Grab".

RAW> - the standard defense to Choke Hold is solid armor on the neck,
RAW> which is not appropriate to the special effect.

So run with it a bit. You're the GM, you have the ball. Modify the
maneuver if it must be modified.

RAW> - given the power involved, very light rigid armor should not
RAW> suffice to avoid constriction.
RAW> - PD is not a defense to constriction unless it is rigid.

Tell that to an anaconda. PD, which is based on Strength, certainly will
help defened against constriction. A Force Field might not, though;
depends on the SFX of the Force Field. If you want to go that route then
you are looking at an AVLD: PD or rigid armor.

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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
\ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:34:29 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Money
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Cc: "\[unknown\]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

---David Stallard wrote:
> That opens up a whole new can of worms... I've never been sure how to
> handle money in the Hero System, and the BBB doesn't give you much
in the
> way of guidelines (basically, you're rich, average, or poor). In a
past
> campaign, I had a Spider-Man type character who was rich, and wanted
to buy
> headsets for the team so they could communicate in combat. This
should be
> chump-change for his character, but it could take time to accumulate
the
> experience points to do such a thing.
>
> I didn't mention the money issue in my 5E questionnaire, but I sure
wish I
> had.... It's especially confusing for people coming into the system:
>
> Newbie: "I want to buy a gun."
> GM: "Ok, build it with powers and see if you have the points."
> Newbie: "But I just want one of those Dirty Harry revolvers...my
character
> is rich. Don't they have an equipment list? Oh, how much money
does my
> character have anyway?"
> GM: "In Hero, you have to buy everything with points."
> Newbie: "Huh?"

The way in which I handle money varies with the type of campaign. In
a typical Champions campaign (100 or more base plus disads) the
character pays points for just about everything, particularly if the
items has an obvious combat use (like one of those Dirty Harry
revolvers).

In Justice Inc. and similar games (50 or 75 points base plus disads,
campaign world is basically Earth) the character pays money (assuming
he has the background/perks to justify the cash) for any "nomally
available" equipment. Wonky-tech requires points.

In low level "fantastic setting" games, like Fantasy Hero and Star
Hero, where the equipment available can be unusually effective
(high-tech weapons or magic-thingies), the characters still pays money
for nomally available equipment, but I don't use the money perk (or
the lack of money disad). Instead, the character must earn the money
through role-play. Unique items the character would pay points for.

-=>John D.


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:34:29 -0800 (PST)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Money
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Cc: "\[unknown\]" <champ-l@omg.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

---David Stallard wrote:
> That opens up a whole new can of worms... I've never been sure how to
> handle money in the Hero System, and the BBB doesn't give you much
in the
> way of guidelines (basically, you're rich, average, or poor). In a
past
> campaign, I had a Spider-Man type character who was rich, and wanted
to buy
> headsets for the team so they could communicate in combat. This
should be
> chump-change for his character, but it could take time to accumulate
the
> experience points to do such a thing.
>
> I didn't mention the money issue in my 5E questionnaire, but I sure
wish I
> had.... It's especially confusing for people coming into the system:
>
> Newbie: "I want to buy a gun."
> GM: "Ok, build it with powers and see if you have the points."
> Newbie: "But I just want one of those Dirty Harry revolvers...my
character
> is rich. Don't they have an equipment list? Oh, how much money
does my
> character have anyway?"
> GM: "In Hero, you have to buy everything with points."
> Newbie: "Huh?"

The way in which I handle money varies with the type of campaign. In
a typical Champions campaign (100 or more base plus disads) the
character pays points for just about everything, particularly if the
items has an obvious combat use (like one of those Dirty Harry
revolvers).

In Justice Inc. and similar games (50 or 75 points base plus disads,
campaign world is basically Earth) the character pays money (assuming
he has the background/perks to justify the cash) for any "nomally
available" equipment. Wonky-tech requires points.

In low level "fantastic setting" games, like Fantasy Hero and Star
Hero, where the equipment available can be unusually effective
(high-tech weapons or magic-thingies), the characters still pays money
for nomally available equipment, but I don't use the money perk (or
the lack of money disad). Instead, the character must earn the money
through role-play. Unique items the character would pay points for.

-=>John D.


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:36:55 -0800
To: champ-l@omg.org
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <scm@mactyre.net>
Subject: Re: PLEASE READ: LIST IS MOVING!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

At 01:53 PM 3/25/98 -0600, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>
>Many thanks for years of great service, Geoff! Come back soon, ya hear?
>
>Guy

Here, here! Kudos to Geoff for all his work on the list -- an often
thankless job, I'm sure, but an invaluable service to the Hero community.

Shelley Chrystal Mactyre
http://www.mactyre.net

A flung stone has always been a fool's favorite means of putting himself on
a level with the wise.
-- Edgar Pangborn

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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:37:47 -0600 (CST)
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: New Powers / Wild Cards
Cc: jeffCFI@aol.com
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us> writes:

> Curt
> >The game is supposed to eventually evolve into a classic four-color
> >superhero game. However, at least for the initial sessions, there
> >will not be any powered opposition. I'm hoping somebody has clever
> >ideas for the 'bad guys', other than the obvious: organized crime,
> >street gangs, biker gangs.
> >
> >

Bill:

> You mentioned in another post that the supers are all descendents
> of shapeshifting aliens. I'd go with the obvious and make the
> initial conflicts revolve around those aliens,

Excellent idea. I'll pass this on to the GM. I'm expecting, but don't
know that eventually one of the major themes will be dealing with the
aliens, but don't know how soon that will be.

> You didn't mention why it is that the super powers are only
> surfacing now. Is there a catalyst of some sort? A reason why
> the powers started working, or a reason why the supers are
> just starting to appear publicly?

I guess so, but don't know. I'd actually suggested the sequence as
1) characters have **potential** for super-powers due to alien DNA
2) characters are exposed to catalyst which causes their powers to be
activated. (the power activation is a slow process, NOT suddenly bursting
into flame, flying and firing lava bolts instinctively)
3) a series of strange incidents occur to each of the characters leading
them to slowly realize they have different abilities
4) characters experiment and train with powers
5) characters get involved into something that leads them to "take up
the mantle of heroes"

Note that 4 and 5 are probably simultaneous.

> If there is a catalyst, that
> might make a good source of early conflicts as well. If it's
> a good enough catalyst, you could even start the game _before_
> the PC's become heroes and let the events motivate them into
> superherodom.
>
Very true, depending on the nature of the catalyst. I'm not sure what
you mean by this last bit however. Is it the same as my sequential
list above, the fact that 4 and 5 are simultaneous ? This would be ideal
to me.

Curt

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From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Re: Money
To: DBStallard@compuserve.com
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:53:28 CST
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

Someone mark this for 5E, ok?

Each level of "money" assumes that basic common things are available to
a character, and don't cost any points; for example, all characters with
0 Money are assumed to have an income (somehow) between $25K and $75K.
There's a standard of living that comes with this - house, car, etc. that
requires no points to maintain or pay for...

Now, what kind of stuff can you buy with that that doesn't shouldn't cost
points? A 1d6K pistol that you DON'T carry around, perhaps a 2d6 Rifle
still not carried around (if VIPER attacks your secret id at his house,
you can use these items). Certainly a stereo system and a TV - there's
"radio listen" and perhaps "change environment" (oh, come on - roll your
car windows all the way down and crank your car stereo up all the way,
then walk away from your car and see how far away you can CLEARLY hear
the music). I've never seen any one buy a 5 pt base with "LS: no need
to eat or sleep" to represent a kitchen or bedroom - we just assume those
things are there. Add in a cheap computer with internet access and what
you have is about 25 "REAL" points of junk.

So I do the following:

Money

-15 -5 pt. vehicle + -10 pt. base + -5 pt. "stuff"
-10 0 pt. vehicle + -5 pt. base + 0 pt. "stuff"
-05 5 pt. vehicle + 0 pt. base + 5 pt. "stuff"
00 10 pt. vehicle + 5 pt. base + 10 pt. "stuff"
05 15 pt. vehicle + 10 pt. base + 15 pt. "stuff"
10 20 pt. vehicle + 15 pt. base + 20 pt. "stuff"
15 25 pt. vehicle + 20 pt. base + 25 pt. "stuff"

All owned by whatever id has the "money", recognizable as being owned
by that id, and none of which has much combat value, unless your home
is attacked (that's that 5 pt. base, BTW). And as far as negative
stuff, the TV's got a disad (local stations only), or the computer
CANNOT access the internet; I like items what have disads... :)

Basically, if your character has the -15 Money disad, don't ask me
if you can buy a gun. If you've got the 15 Money perk, your gun
case is in your home (truck, for American southerners)...

The inevitable question, what's a -10 pt. base:
Remember the apartment the Blues Brothers holed up in? Could be smaller
than 6'x12' (0 pt. size), add'l BODY and DEF questionable, no grounds
possible (I give that -5 on the location list, BTW, as a house rule),
in the city (0 pts), and "bad part of town, -5" is another GM rule...
You might require that Jake and Elwood buy Concealment for the base,
but I'll throw that in with 8- reputation that any person interested
in Jazz and having Streetwise can find them. Oh - and this apartment
doesn't have "LS: no need to eat or sleep" because the hot plate can't
keep Elwood fed and Jake can't sleep :)

> That opens up a whole new can of worms... I've never been sure how to
> handle money in the Hero System, and the BBB doesn't give you much in the
> way of guidelines (basically, you're rich, average, or poor). In a past
> campaign, I had a Spider-Man type character who was rich, and wanted to buy
> headsets for the team so they could communicate in combat. This should be
> chump-change for his character, but it could take time to accumulate the
> experience points to do such a thing.
>
> I didn't mention the money issue in my 5E questionnaire, but I sure wish I
> had.... It's especially confusing for people coming into the system:
>
> Newbie: "I want to buy a gun."
> GM: "Ok, build it with powers and see if you have the points."
> Newbie: "But I just want one of those Dirty Harry revolvers...my character
> is rich. Don't they have an equipment list? Oh, how much money does my
> character have anyway?"
> GM: "In Hero, you have to buy everything with points."
> Newbie: "Huh?"
>


--
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist dmckinne@cmi.csc.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org (217) 469-9917 =
==========================================================================

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:02:32 -0800
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Money
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

At 07:57 PM 3/25/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade
>> I'd have the character spend new money, but not new points, on a new
>one. If the character has the money to buy a new one right away, then he
>may do so; if not, then he'll need to roleplay either saving up for one,
>collecting insurance money from whatever destroyed the first one (and
>perhaps fighting with the insurance company about whether or not it was
>covered), or getting a bank loan or other financing.<
>
>That opens up a whole new can of worms... I've never been sure how to
>handle money in the Hero System, and the BBB doesn't give you much in the
>way of guidelines (basically, you're rich, average, or poor). In a past
>campaign, I had a Spider-Man type character who was rich, and wanted to buy
>headsets for the team so they could communicate in combat. This should be
>chump-change for his character, but it could take time to accumulate the
>experience points to do such a thing.
>
>I didn't mention the money issue in my 5E questionnaire, but I sure wish I
>had.... It's especially confusing for people coming into the system:
>
>Newbie: "I want to buy a gun."
>GM: "Ok, build it with powers and see if you have the points."
>Newbie: "But I just want one of those Dirty Harry revolvers...my character
>is rich. Don't they have an equipment list? Oh, how much money does my
>character have anyway?"
>GM: "In Hero, you have to buy everything with points."
>Newbie: "Huh?"

That is one of the oddities of the system; in Hero, if you're in a
superheroic game, everything of any significant effect is bought with
points. In a heroic game, characters do buy things with money; in a
superheroic game, you must have the points as well as the money. It may
seem illogical, but it's a balance issue.
Personally, I've never kept close track of money in a Hero System game
except in Fantasy Hero.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:05:16 -0800
To: champ-l@omg.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: PLEASE READ: LIST IS MOVING!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

At 12:36 PM 3/25/1998 -0800, Shelley Chrystal Mactyre wrote:
>At 01:53 PM 3/25/98 -0600, Guy Hoyle wrote:
>>
>>Many thanks for years of great service, Geoff! Come back soon, ya hear?
>>
>>Guy
>
>Here, here! Kudos to Geoff for all his work on the list -- an often
>thankless job, I'm sure, but an invaluable service to the Hero community.

While I usually don't like posts that just say, "Me, too"...
Me, too. :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:08:41 -0600 (CST)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: VPP: More Questions
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, qts wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 22:12:33 -0600 (CST), Sakura wrote:
> >My second question is the reverse of the first one: What if I wanted to
> >have a 60 pt pool that could only have 30 Real Points of powers in it?
> >What would the limitation be?
>
> I've no idea on this, but it does beg the question: why?

Well, let's say that you have a Magic Pool, which requires a total of -1
in limitations (incantations, gestures, and requires skill roll).

If you require all powers in the pool to have -1 in limitations, then you
can always have two powers running at 'full power' all the time - you
literally /can't/ put 'all your power' into something. Something about
that just seems odd to me.

So, I'm searching for a solution to that.

The other question, how to have a lower AP limit than RP limit, is for
someone who can have a /lot/ of powers going at once, but none of them are
very powerful. It's a breadth vs. depth thing.

Does that help?

"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:10:40 -0800
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Killing "Secondary Entities"
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

At 12:25 PM 3/25/1998 -0800, Brian Wong wrote:
>> The only "secondary entities" that should be lost when destroyed are
>> Duplicates (which basically are a part of the character) and Multiform
>> (which essentially *are* the character; kill a Multiform, and the character
>> is dead).
>
> What if the killed form was a seperate body? Or what if it's two
>totally seperate people who occupy the same time/space in reality, only one
>can exist in this reality at a time. Maybe they're even struggling to become
>the one who permanently occupies this reality over the other.
> In both those special effects, kill one body and the other just moves
>in as a permanent form, no longer having/being cursed by the other entity.

There are unusual Special Effects that can justify just about anything.
The beauty of the Hero System is that you're not locked into any given
mechanic for a Special Effect, nor to any given Special Effect for a
mechanic; the two have a symbiotic relationship.
In the past, I've suggested a +1/4 Advantage to REC, Regeneration, and
Healing Aid that would allow them to heal back severed limbs. I'd allow a
similar (but separate) Advantage to allow them to heal back killed
Duplicates (which is functionally similar IMO).
As for killing a Multiform which is represented as two different
individuals who alternate realities, I'd have to rule that when one is
killed the other is stuck on the "other side." Were I GM, I could probably
be convinced to let the character survive, trading in the Multiform for
Extra-Dimensional Movement (to the "other side"), but that would be a
special case (which I'd allow because it really is relatively rare).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:19:27 -0500
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: PRe: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

At 03:31 PM 3/25/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes:
>
>RAW> As I interpret this type of sequence, if one were to construct the
>RAW> phantasm, it would be modelled by Images, not by Mental Illusions.
>RAW> This is the reason for avoiding Mental Defense, hence not an AVLD.
>RAW> Courage and Faith are, IMHO, modelled by PRE, not EGO, and certainly
>RAW> Mental Defense should not come into the equation.
>
>As I previously stated, I disagree. Ego is the "strength" of one's mind;
>Presence is what the person projects. I like to use Adolph Hitler as an
>example of this, an ugly coward with a powerful ability to project. High
>Presence, low COM and Ego.
>

Daniel Goleman's book _Emotional Intelligence_, which despite making the
best seller list a couple of years back is pretty good, makes a distinction
between Interpersonal Intelligence and Intrapersonal Intelligence; I tend
to use this distinction as the difference between PRE and EGO.

Interpersonal Intelligence (PRE) is the understanding of one's effect on
other people - both manipulating people and understanding them by picking
up on subtle hints. While the PRE of Hero characters includes some purely
external factors unrelated to this "intelligence" (size, glowing red eyes &
fangs, or whatever), this ability is clearly reflected in all the PRE
skills and seems like a good basis for both offensive and defensive PRE.

Intrapersonal Intelligence is the ability to understand one's inner self,
which can be applied both for self control and self understanding. It is,
as Rat observed for EGO, the "strength" of one's mind - but it is very much
an inner strength, resisting external events by achieving a strong inner
structure.

By this reckoning, a High PRE, low EGO character (like Hitler) might be
very skilled at dealing with other people, but would have little
understanding of the forces that drove him, making him more vulnerable to
personal flaws (and anything requiring an EGO roll.) A low PRE, high EGO
character (say, a stereotypical monk) might have little understanding of
interaction with others, but would have a rich inner life which would
support him through the outer world's difficulties.

The Hero skills tend to focus on the more active dimensions of both these
intelligences: PRE skills are most often about affecting others (Seduction,
Persuasion, Oratory) though understanding them is probably implicit in the
process (especially so with Conversation.) Dealing with adventure
scenarios, EGO inevitably gets used more to drive one through the outer
world than to achieve inner understanding ("Quick! Make an EGO roll to find
insight into your issues with your parents!") But I think the
Inter/Intrapersonal division is a useful one for PRE and EGO.

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:23:56 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: PRE vs. EGO (was Re: NND vs AVLD)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

(Whoops - I think I somehow sent this before as I was in the middle of
revising the Subject line - apologies for any confusion)

At 03:31 PM 3/25/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>>>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes:
>
>RAW> As I interpret this type of sequence, if one were to construct the
>RAW> phantasm, it would be modelled by Images, not by Mental Illusions.
>RAW> This is the reason for avoiding Mental Defense, hence not an AVLD.
>RAW> Courage and Faith are, IMHO, modelled by PRE, not EGO, and certainly
>RAW> Mental Defense should not come into the equation.
>
>As I previously stated, I disagree. Ego is the "strength" of one's mind;
>Presence is what the person projects. I like to use Adolph Hitler as an
>example of this, an ugly coward with a powerful ability to project. High
>Presence, low COM and Ego.
>

Daniel Goleman's book _Emotional Intelligence_, which despite making the
best seller list a couple of years back is pretty good, makes a distinction
between Interpersonal Intelligence and Intrapersonal Intelligence; I tend
to use this distinction as the difference between PRE and EGO.

Interpersonal Intelligence (PRE) is the understanding of one's effect on
other people - both manipulating people and understanding them by picking
up on subtle hints. While the PRE of Hero characters includes some purely
external factors unrelated to this "intelligence" (size, glowing red eyes &
fangs, or whatever), this ability is clearly reflected in all the PRE
skills and seems like a good basis for both offensive and defensive PRE.

Intrapersonal Intelligence is the ability to understand one's inner self,
which can be applied both for self control and self understanding. It is,
as Rat observed for EGO, the "strength" of one's mind - but it is very much
an inner strength, resisting external events by achieving a strong inner
structure.

By this reckoning, a High PRE, low EGO character (like Hitler) might be
very skilled at dealing with other people, but would have little
understanding of the forces that drove him, making him more vulnerable to
personal flaws (and anything requiring an EGO roll.) A low PRE, high EGO
character (say, a stereotypical monk) might have little understanding of
interaction with others, but would have a rich inner life which would
support him through the outer world's difficulties.

The Hero skills tend to focus on the more active dimensions of both these
intelligences: PRE skills are most often about affecting others (Seduction,
Persuasion, Oratory) though understanding them is probably implicit in the
process (especially so with Conversation.) Dealing with adventure
scenarios, EGO inevitably gets used more to drive one through the outer
world than to achieve inner understanding ("Quick! Make an EGO roll to find
insight into your issues with your parents!") But I think the
Inter/Intrapersonal division is a useful one for PRE and EGO.

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:37:24 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: New Powers / Wild Cards
Cc: jeffCFI@aol.com
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

At 02:37 PM 3/25/98 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote:
> BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us> writes:
>
>I guess so, but don't know. I'd actually suggested the sequence as
>1) characters have **potential** for super-powers due to alien DNA
>2) characters are exposed to catalyst which causes their powers to be
>activated. (the power activation is a slow process, NOT suddenly bursting
>into flame, flying and firing lava bolts instinctively)
>3) a series of strange incidents occur to each of the characters leading
>them to slowly realize they have different abilities
>4) characters experiment and train with powers
>5) characters get involved into something that leads them to "take up
>the mantle of heroes"
>
>Note that 4 and 5 are probably simultaneous.
>
>> If there is a catalyst, that
>> might make a good source of early conflicts as well. If it's
>> a good enough catalyst, you could even start the game _before_
>> the PC's become heroes and let the events motivate them into
>> superherodom.
>>
>Very true, depending on the nature of the catalyst. I'm not sure what
>you mean by this last bit however. Is it the same as my sequential
>list above, the fact that 4 and 5 are simultaneous ? This would be ideal
>to me.
>

I think we're thinking along similar lines. What I had in mind was
something along the lines of this example - suppose the alien powers could
be activated by exposure to weird alien radiation (or an enzyme, or
something. Ignore my particularly weak pseudoscience - this is just an
example.) An alien scout ship shows up near the campaign city to check how
the invasion is going, and pours out a lot of that radiation. This has two
effects - 1) It activates the powers in the PC's, who are near enough to
see the weird glowing lights in the sky, and 2) The weird glowing lights in
the sky suggest to them that there may be some malevolent force at work.
This could get a lot more elaborate, and could still make for a nice tight
plot.

As you say, this depends on the nature of the catalyst. If the trigger for
the powers activating is simply a certain amount of time passing, random
incidents infusing the characters with energy, or some other
non-threatening circumstance, then that alone won't be enough to spur our
heroes into action, and some other opponents will be needed.

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:10:08 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Combat "background"
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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I'm just curious about how various groups handle things on the battlefield
other than the PCs and their opponents.

1) Unless the fight is in an exotic location, do you normally have lots of
innocent people scattered around the map? Do you move them in combat time
as well? If they exist, they would probably flee to the edges of the map
as soon as the fight started, wouldn't they?

2) How do you handle collateral damage? Do you keep track of damage to
various buildings and other obstacles, or do you just arbitrarily declare
"you miss Mr. Evil, instead blowing a hole in this wall 5 hexes behind
him"? Or, do you ignore that stuff until the battle is done, and then
describe the status of the battlefield?

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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> "Sakura" <jeffj@io.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 22:15:38
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: VPP: More Questions
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:08:41 -0600 (CST), Sakura wrote:

>On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, qts wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 Mar 1998 22:12:33 -0600 (CST), Sakura wrote:
>> >My second question is the reverse of the first one: What if I wanted to
>> >have a 60 pt pool that could only have 30 Real Points of powers in it?
>> >What would the limitation be?
>>
>> I've no idea on this, but it does beg the question: why?
>
>Well, let's say that you have a Magic Pool, which requires a total of -1
>in limitations (incantations, gestures, and requires skill roll).
>
>If you require all powers in the pool to have -1 in limitations, then you
>can always have two powers running at 'full power' all the time - you
>literally /can't/ put 'all your power' into something. Something about
>that just seems odd to me.
>
>So, I'm searching for a solution to that.

Yes, but why is that a problem? In FH, I have mages with -5 of
limitations (OAF, 1 Charge, Costs End, RSR, Side Effect,
Concentrate/Gestures/Incantations) and it's not a problem.

>
>The other question, how to have a lower AP limit than RP limit, is for
>someone who can have a /lot/ of powers going at once, but none of them are
>very powerful. It's a breadth vs. depth thing.
>
>Does that help?

Yes, but it seems a waste of potential. Why not just make it difficult
to have powers greater than Max/2 AP? Try the Difficult Skill Roll (-1
per 5 AP), or Increased Endurance routes
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 22:18:05
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Presence Attacks
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:59:22 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote:

>
>> > And that's not a violent action?
>>
>> Yes, but +1d6, not +3d6 (eating people and splattering bits around)
>
> I'd give +1d6 for smashing a house with a tail. I'd give at least
>+2d6 for putting the entire villiage into an enferno.

I'd give +2d6 for someone coming round the corner and seeing the
village in flames, but by that time, the inhabitants have already been
affected by his Pre attack and are too busy running away.
qts

Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:26:50 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

David Fair wrote:
>
> I'm always cautious about mechanics discussions that don't want to talk
> about SFx.

Well, this the argument originated when Rat denied that powers such as
are being discussed fit the *mechanical requirements( of NND. There is,
not, at least on my part, any argument that such things run into SFX
problems.

In fact, even straight NNDs that even Rat would approve run into such
problems. Let's take the classic:

40 4D6 NND SFX Gas: Defense: No need to breathe or holding breath.

What about having LS: Safe Breathing in environment? By SFX, I have
trouble figuring out an SFX that should not provide at least partial
protection, but this is absolutely prohibited by the NND rules. What
about an attack that is absorbed through the skin? This would seem to
require 15 points of Life Support, but that violates the principle
enunciated by Rat that all NND Defenses should have similar costs!

How about the Martial Artist NNDs: rPD in (pick area) -- even one point
suffices. If I think too hard about it, this stops making sense: a 20
STR martial artist can't put a little extra behind the kick and get
through a puny 1rPD?

Why do NNDs exist? What do they model? Very few real-world effects are
stopped cold by X and not impeded at all by X-1. OTOH, there are a fair
number of effects that would be well modeled by the following:

Full effect below X-N
Partial effect from X-N to X-1
No effect in combat-relevant time from X on up.

Is this precisely the mechanic of an NND? No, but NND is the closest
mechanic there is in the system to this type of effect, at least without
jumping through a few hoops. IMHO, even most canonical NNDs are actually
modeling this type of "steep slope" defense.

>
> If you need to add these kind of kludges to suit you GM's needs for a
> "common enough" defense, then you have problems in that your not
> following the conception. GM's need to say "That defense is too rare, you
> need to do something else to limit the effectiveness and utility of this
> power or it will destroy the game world. Try adding extra time,
> concentration, charges, etc." This will keep the abuse of the NND in
> check without sacrificing the concept.
First problem: you have now violated the book rule on NND. Every NND
must have a "reasonably common" defense, which is usually, but not
always, a power. You now have an NND that has a defense that the GM
believes is *not* "reasonably common".

Second problem: does the character get cost breaks for these required
limitations? If so, the character is getting a lot more bang for the
buck than his neighbors.

Third problem: why in heaven's name *should* Dr. Geriatric's Stun Ray
take extra time to power up? At least lots of Power Defense has some
relevance, because Dr. G's Transform Ray is slowed down by Power Defense,
and is in the same multipower. I see these types of imposed restrictions
as more damaging to the concept than finding some other defense, even if
doing so requires a little stretch.


> I still have not seen an example of a power that _requires_ a
> "quantified" NND.

Well, I have seen several examples, and in this argument. Most of the
suggested alternatives to my examples do violence to the desired special
effect, the envisioned cinematic element, or both. Of those that
preserve the desired role-playing effect, many strike me as needlessly
complex, or involve my introducing house rules/optional rules that I do
not particularly like.

In some cases, I will admit that NND is a short-cut, but short-cuts can
be useful if they have the approximate effect desired, are easy to
remember and run, are easy to explain to a newcomer, and obey the letter
of the rules.

In any event, since I doubt that either of us is going to convince the
other, I suggest that this argument has a conclusion -- I at least have
run out of new things to say.

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 14:28:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Combat "background"
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

David Stallard writes:
> 1) Unless the fight is in an exotic location, do you normally have lots of
> innocent people scattered around the map? Do you move them in combat time
> as well? If they exist, they would probably flee to the edges of the map
> as soon as the fight started, wouldn't they?

We usually scatter counters to represent innocent bystanders about, though we
don't go to a great deal of detail resolving what happens to them -- we sort of
shuffle them about whenever it seems appropriate.
>
> 2) How do you handle collateral damage? Do you keep track of damage to
> various buildings and other obstacles, or do you just arbitrarily declare
> "you miss Mr. Evil, instead blowing a hole in this wall 5 hexes behind
> him"? Or, do you ignore that stuff until the battle is done, and then
> describe the status of the battlefield?

Unless it is likely to make a difference, it tends to get ignored until later.
We rarely bother to roll dice on obstacles except where it's actually important
if it is penetrated (for example, if you're shooting and hit the wall of an
underwater habitat, this is important).

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:55:10 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org


> >7? Again, there's no reason for him to. He's already failed the
> >requirement, and will suffer full effect unless he has one of the other
> >defenses.
> > That is how NND works, plain and simple.
> >
> I do understand how NND's work, the Why's were there to ask what the SFx
> justification was for this particular NND.

The discussion has been oscillating between NND possibilities in
general and certain specific NNDs. However, as NND is a mechanic of the
Hero rules, talking about an abstracted SFX-less NND is quite applicable.

> > This is an entirely different question, and one that has been discussed
> >along a different thread.
>
> No, it is really the same question. As mechanics serve only to model SFx
> in game terms, any discussion of mechanics apart from SFx is moot
> (although you can say things like "usually", or "for most Fx", etc).

Not true. The rules have to work as an abstract set in order to
form the framework for SFX to be layed over. We're talking simply whether
a construction is valid or not, not the best way to mirror a SFX. (The
latter can be much more variable from player to player. I like Bod Drains
for poisions, someone else wants NND attacks that do Bod.)

> So you get:
> 60 6d6 EB NND (not vs. LS:Poisons, or Immunity:"This Poison)
> 1 1/2 D6 RKA, Linked (to above), Does no game effect damage; Only to
> used to determine success in "delivery" of linked
> attack (-10)
> Instead of:
> 60 6d6 EB NND (not vs. LS:Poisons, Immunity;"This Poison", or 4+ Pts
> of rPD)
>
> I guess neither construct is perfectly canonical, but I just feel more
> comfortable with mine, as the second NND seems to violate the rule for
> NND's, by placing that "4+ Pts" line in there.

Why is this a rule of NNDs? Show me where, in the Hero Rules, it
says that NNDs cannot require an amount of X. And your writeup is
incredibly non-intuitive. And we wonder why people say Hero is too
complicated.

> I would probably model disorienting affects as dex drains, those with the
> SFx you describe should probably be AVLD vs. Flash Def.
> Why does 8 stop the effect cold, and 7 let it fully through? Why, if as
> you say "higher amounts represent greater polarization and/or resistance
> to short-term optical damage" does someone with 10 pts not suffer more
> than someone with 20? That is the dynamic that I am not getting here.

Too weak, and the attack cannot be avoided. Strong enough, and
you can shrug off the entire attack. That's the nature of NNDs. Your
argument seems to suggest that almost all NNDs should be replaced by
AVLDs.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:56:58 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: PLEASE READ: LIST IS MOVING!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org


> As for me, I'll be taking a sabbatical from the list, but I'm sure I'll
> be back. (For those who are interested, I've just switched jobs, and I'm
> in the process of buying a house, so things are a bit busy.) Many thanks
> to all of those who I've talked with over the years...I'm sure I'll see
> you again soon!
>
> Farewell,

And a one, and a two, and a . . .

For he's a jolly good fellow,
For he's a jolly good fellow . . .



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:59:22 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: RE: Presence Attacks
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org


> > And that's not a violent action?
>
> Yes, but +1d6, not +3d6 (eating people and splattering bits around)

I'd give +1d6 for smashing a house with a tail. I'd give at least
+2d6 for putting the entire villiage into an enferno.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:01:12 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org


> RAW> In a sense, this is a huge Presence Attack that does STUN rather than
> RAW> causing one to run away.
>
> At this point I need to point out that Ego may also be used to defend
> against Presence Attacks. One uses the higher of the two, Ego or Presence.

A mistake in the system. Why buy Pre?


-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:01:45 -0800
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Combat "background"
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

At 10:31 PM 3/25/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Combat "background"
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>

David, are you addressing your messages for the list to
champ-l@sysabend.org, or to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org? The former is
correct; the latter isn't.
Either way, some kind of wierdness keeps coming up with all of your
messages (or am I the only one who's getting these from
owner-champ-l@sysabend.org with no Subject header?).

>I'm just curious about how various groups handle things on the battlefield
>other than the PCs and their opponents.
>
>1) Unless the fight is in an exotic location, do you normally have lots of
>innocent people scattered around the map? Do you move them in combat time
>as well? If they exist, they would probably flee to the edges of the map
>as soon as the fight started, wouldn't they?

Taking these questions in order:
a) Only occasionally. I have done fights that take place in places such
as shopping malls and busy intersections, but just as often they happen in
abandoned junkyards, airport runways, villain bases, and similar places
where there aren't a lot of civilians.
b) I do run normals on their regular Phases, though variances of SPD can
have that movement on 4, 6, 7, 8, and 12 (and occasionally 3 and 9 as well).
c) Unless they have a specific reason for doing otherwise, civilians
always run like the dickens when fighting breaks out. Occasionally there's
a little girl who's mesmerized by the action (always fun when the villain
needs a distraction), or a cub reporter who thinks he's invulnerable (not
literally, just the way many young people tend to), but on the whole the
normals vamoose.

>2) How do you handle collateral damage? Do you keep track of damage to
>various buildings and other obstacles, or do you just arbitrarily declare
>"you miss Mr. Evil, instead blowing a hole in this wall 5 hexes behind
>him"? Or, do you ignore that stuff until the battle is done, and then
>describe the status of the battlefield?

I always keep detailed track of collateral damage. If you knock too
much out of the wall behind Mr. Evil, the building may fall on him.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:04:25 -0500
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Combat "background"
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
I'm just curious about how various groups handle things on the battlefield
other than the PCs and their opponents.

<<<<<<

I'm very fond of interesting battlefields, and property damage
is always one of the fun parts for me in superheroic battles.

I've found that a few tools make detailed settings pretty easy and
lots of fun. I always use a battlemat which I can write on with
overhead projector pens - this lets me quickly sketch out the
basic terrain. It's easy to quickly scatter 10 or 20 counters for
random bystanders, and assuming they all move 6" on SPD 2 makes
them easy enough to move - as you say, they generally head away
from the battle as quickly as possible; but often that's not fast
enough to stop them from becoming hostages or complications. I also
have several sets of plastic background items which stick to the
battlemat. These were sold by Hero way back when in the 80's, and
I haven't seen anything like them for years; it's a shame, because
they're really handy, with items ranging from mundane street stuff
(manhole covers, mailboxes, light posts, trees, and cars) to high
tech labororatory equipment.

With all this stuff scattered around, inevitably bricks start
ripping things up and throwing them. I also have a good idea what
stray shots might hit, and frequently roll the direction of a
miss and make an OCV 0 attack on whatever's there. It's easy to
simply scribble in some battle damage with the overhead pens.

By the end of a typical superhero battle, the mat is covered with
marks of different color ink - usually black for the basic structures,
blue for damage, red for flames, and other colors depending on what
weird powers can mess up. It's enough to make even the most reckless
heroes step back and gasp "We did that?"

In heroic level games, of course, property damage is less of a
factor, but the layout of the battlefield becomes a lot more
restricting. A wall that's a 1/2 phase inconvenience to a superhero
can define the entire scope of a heroic level battle. In my current
pirate campaign, I'm making hex paper ships as a combination between
counters and battlemats, defining the battlefield even as they
themselves are mobile. Part of the fun of these ship counters is
making the players realize just how small their sloop is compared
to some of the ships they're attacking.

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:19:29 -0800
To: champ-l@omg.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Object Damage.
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

At 04:24 PM 3/25/1998 -0800, Robert A. West wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>
>>
>> That said... I would still rather fall out of a third-story window and
>> land on a piano, than have said piano fall out of a third-story window and
>> land on me. Can you think of a reason that I shouldn't?
>
>Aha! There are two non-identical things being discussed here.
>
>1) Hitting a locomotive or having it hit me, in horizontal motion.
>2) Falling on an object, vs having it fall on me.

I realized that right after your physics example. The locomotive vs
auto discussion simply turned out to be a bad example.

>The difference is that, in case #1, I get to fly backwards with the
>locomotive, which only imparts a small fraction of its Kinetic
>Energy to me. In case #2, the Earth under my feet outweighs both the
>piano and me by a *lot*, so the piano is going to release all its Kinetic
>Energy into the Earth; unforunately, I am between the Piano and the
>Earth, so I am going to get it.

And my point (the one I failed to make with my pathetic example of the
car vs the locomotive) is that the damage that you or I would take from the
piano falling on us is considerably greater than what we'd take by falling
an equal distance onto the piano. Someone (was it you? I forget, and I'm
too lazy right now to go search through my processed mail) stated that one
should just use the straight Falling damage for the damage that's done by
the piano landing on a person, but I can't see that as the case, and I
think you now understand why.

>Now, how much of this is worth modeling is an interesting question: the
>falling rules are IMHO broken, as is the rule that allows a speedster
>flying at 10"/phase with +9NCM (around 10 kilometers per second) to stop
>by doing a STR 5 movethrough on the ground, and only take 4D6 damage.

I fix some of this in TUSV, and I suspect The Ultimate Speedster will
address this as well. (The two will use the same rule, you can bet; it's
just a matter of which book gets precedence, which may be a matter of whose
rule is first as much as it is of whose rule is better.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
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>>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes:

RAW> Breathing requires that the thorax and/or abdomen expand. Constriction
RAW> works by preventing this. Using strength to fight to breathe will place
RAW> enormous pressure on the internal organs, and will reverse the osmotic
RAW> pressure on the lungs, filling them with fluid, resulting in damage.

Just yesterday, several people -- including you, Robert, if I recall
correctly (which I might not; sorry) -- reamed me a new one because the
mechanic I provided was "to real" and not sufficiently "comic-bookly".

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes:

>> At this point I need to point out that Ego may also be used to defend
>> against Presence Attacks. One uses the higher of the two, Ego or Presence.

TRG> A mistake in the system. Why buy Pre?

Because Ego represents self-confidence, while Presence represents
projection. See the other post contrasting Adolf Hitler with a monk.

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From: Prodipto Roy <proy@MICROSOFT.com>
To: "'David Stallard'" <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Combat "background"
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:23:39 -0800
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

I can't speak for others, but in my campaign, I tend to distribute normals,
vehicles, etc. around the map. Players often find themselves having to
ignore Cabbage Head Man in order to save someone from a burning vehicle,
etc. For that same reason, I try to update the battlefield as a result of
attacks. If a piece of the street is torn up, it can be a hole someone
could throw someone else into, or a hunk of concrete could be used as a
hex-sized object for a Low-CV character to use as a weapon. I let the
players roll their damage, and adjust the map accordingly whether or not
they hit.

And not *all* normals flee to the edges of the map. Some take pictures,
cheer the heroes (or villains), faint, or stand around bemoaning their luck
that Electromagnetic Girl just sucked the hood off their car. I think that
collateral damage is important for players to be aware of. In fact some
types of "fallout" from a fight lead off into other adventures. After all,
who could resist transforming a normal into a hero or villain after Nukem
Boy or Flashback Man let loose with some nasty damaging blasts near them.

--Pro

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:26:53 -0800
To: "champ-l@omg.org" <champ-l@omg.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Presence Attacks
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

At 07:54 PM 3/25/1998, qts wrote:
>On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 02:12:54 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>>
>>> > +4d6? That's low. Violent action, exhibiting powers,
>>> >mega-extreme reputation.
>>>
>>> He doesn't need much of a bonus. If you look at the film, you'll notice
>>> he isn't eating people, just burning their houses.
>>
>> And that's not a violent action?
>
>Yes, but +1d6, not +3d6 (eating people and splattering bits around)

Here's an odd PRE Attack for you:
Animal, near the end of The Muppet Movie.
A somewhat generous appraisal:

3d6 PRE 15
+1d6 Surprise
+1d6 Exhibiting a Power (Growth)
+1d6 Violent Action (Breaking through the roof of Dr Honeydew's lab)
+1d6 Good Soliloquy (It's just a roar, but hey, go with what works)
+1d6 Appropriate Setting (That ghost town was already kinda spooky)
=8d6 Average Roll of 28.

He must've rolled exceptionally high, or have a higher PRE than I think,
or something, because the bad guys all ran away....
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:30:50 -0500
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

Tim Gilberg wrote:

>>>>

> At this point I need to point out that Ego may also be used to defend
> against Presence Attacks. One uses the higher of the two, Ego or Presence.

A mistake in the system. Why buy Pre?
<<<<

To be impressive, make PRE attacks, and have a nice base for PRE
based skills.

I was very pleased when EGO was allowed as a defense vs. PRE attacks
in the 4th edition, and I've never had any game balance problems
with it. However, I seem to have more PRE attacks in my games than
most people, and I encourage people to buy high EGO's to represent
them being strong-willed heroes - it's not just a convenient
attack stat for egoists.

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:00:51 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com>
CC: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

Brian Wong wrote:
>
> > warn Joe that this is the wrong power for Laser Lad, and should refuse to
> > approve the power until he has a heart-to-heart talk with Joe. The game
> > will be no fun for Joe of he finds that he cannot use is main attack.
>
> Why?
> Maybe that's part of the concept. Being a huge killing machine that refuses to

Well, that is the reason for the heart-to-heart. In my experience, it is
far more likely that Joe is simply being clueless than that Joe is a
master role-player setting himself up.

>
> > One way to think about whether a Limitation is limiting is to suppose that
> > you offered a rational powergamer the option of taking the Limitation as an
> > SFX -0 limitation, would he still take the option and choose to grumble
> > about being treated unfairly? If the answer is, "yes", then it is probably
> > not a limitation and may even be an advantage. If the answer is, "no" then
> > it probably is a limitation.

> >
> This test is highly subjective, since many people accused to be
> powergamers are not. And many people who are doing th accusing often are.

Well, show me the limitation whose value cannot be argued on subjective
grounds and I will take up MTG. That is why different ways of looking at
the subject are useful. If there were an objective answer, one would
just run the formula and be done. Even statistics get argued in this
game: see below.

>
> > The main effect of a normal attack is to do STUN. The main effect of a
> > killing attack is to do BODY. Killing attacks are measurably less
> > efficient on average at dealing out STUN than are normal attacks. This
> > seems like a good enough set of distinctions for me.
> >
> ?
> ??
> ???
>
> KA's are highly MORE effective at doing stun than EB's.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

A 3D6N attack does 10.5 STUN on expectation. A 1D6K attack does 9.33.

For opponents with resistant DEF, then the question is how Yahtzee for
STUN compares with normal attacks. Let us compare for DC3, for no
reason other than the math is easy. Recall that I stated that I prohibit
ISM with the No BODY limitation, so we use normal STUNx.

Amount Chances in 216 of doing that much STUN
STUN 3D6N CUM 1D6K CUM
---- ---- --- ---- ---
1 0 0 12 12
2 0 0 18 30
3 1 1 18 48
4 3 4 24 72
5 6 10 18 90
6 10 20 12 102
7 15 35 0
8 21 56 12 114
9 25 81 6 120
10 27 108 12 132
11 27 135 0
12 25 160 24 156
13 21 181 0
14 15 196 0
15 10 206 12 168
16 6 212 6 174
17 3 215 0
18 1 216 6 180
19 0 0
20 0 12 192
21 0 0
22 0 0
23 0 0
24 0 6 198
25 0 6 204
26 0 0
27 0 0
28 0 0
29 0 0
30 0 6 210
31 0 0
32 0 0
33 0 0
34 0 0
35 0 0
36 0 6 216

I have put everything in chances/216 for convenience. The cumulative
chances show the likelihood of doing that STUN or less. Note that the
chances of doing so little that even trivial DEF will stop the STUN are
much greater with 1D6K. In fact, the median is only around 7, compared
to 10.5 for the normal attack!

The advantage only comes in the top 25%, and really gets going only in
the top 10%. This skew, IMHO, resembles an activation roll, and
justifies a limitation, relative to 3D6 EB STUN ONLY.


> everything else. But even still, I've seen a 45 active point KA do 72 stun
> in my last game. Something EB users dream of getting.

Yes, that is there. Most of the time, the KA simply does ignorable
stun: 1/3 of the time it is 4 points or fewer! You can construct much
the same thing, with much the same probability, at much the same cost, by
partially limiting an EB with activation rolls. Note that I don't round
in this case, just to avoid scaling issues, and extrapolate activations
based on expectation.

5.00 1D6 EB unlimited
2.86 1D6 EB 12-
1.67 1D6 EB 8-
2.00 2D6 EB 6-(-4) fixed at 6 points.
1.00 2D6 EB 5-(-9) fixed at 6 points.
----
12.53

Close enough to a -1/4 limitation for my book.

>
> If you want a high stun attack, getting KA does no body is much
> more useful than an EB. And it also allows you to step all over people
> without resistant defenses.
>

And much less useful than a bigger EB with a low activation. As for
people w/o resistant defenses, if they are a big issue in a campaign,
then I would agree not to use the limitation.


--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:13:06 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: champ-l@omg.org, champ-l@sysabend.com
Subject: Re: Last Minute 5th Edition Notes
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

Bob Greenwade wrote:
>

> >
> >Would a rational powergamer choose a no BODY EB at even cost? They do.
> >They complain that they are being unfairly denied their god-given right to
> >a cost break, but they choose them.
>
> Isn't "rational powergamer" a contradiction in terms? ;-]
> Seriously, I've only played with one powergamer, and he only used
> Killing Attacks, and I haven't seen him in nearly a decade and a half, so I
> wouldn't know his stance on this.

Perhaps I should have said "wargamer" or "tactical gamer". My
introduction to roleplaying was watching a group of people playing an odd
game after a round of WRG Ancients (miniatures) in 1975. After I was
hooked, we would still, after playing D&D (no "A" in front of that,
please!), adjourn for a round of Kingmaker or Afrika Korps.

Many of the people I game with are concerned about point-squeezing as a
challenge, but understand game balance (and delight at finding the flaws
in unbalanced games). They are quite willing to accept campaign limits
when clearly explained, and are concerned with power-levels primarily to
see that their characters are not underpowered compared to the expected
opposition and that their characters are not underpowered compared to the
rest of the group.

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:24:54 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Object Damage.
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>
> That said... I would still rather fall out of a third-story window and
> land on a piano, than have said piano fall out of a third-story window and
> land on me. Can you think of a reason that I shouldn't?

Aha! There are two non-identical things being discussed here.

1) Hitting a locomotive or having it hit me, in horizontal motion.
2) Falling on an object, vs having it fall on me.

The difference is that, in case #1, I get to fly backwards with the
locomotive, which only imparts a small fraction of its Kinetic
Energy to me. In case #2, the Earth under my feet outweighs both the
piano and me by a *lot*, so the piano is going to release all its Kinetic
Energy into the Earth; unforunately, I am between the Piano and the
Earth, so I am going to get it.

Now, how much of this is worth modeling is an interesting question: the
falling rules are IMHO broken, as is the rule that allows a speedster
flying at 10"/phase with +9NCM (around 10 kilometers per second) to stop
by doing a STR 5 movethrough on the ground, and only take 4D6 damage.


--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:38:59 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Money
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

David Stallard wrote:
>
>
> Newbie: "I want to buy a gun."
> GM: "Ok, build it with powers and see if you have the points."
> Newbie: "But I just want one of those Dirty Harry revolvers...my character
> is rich. Don't they have an equipment list? Oh, how much money does my
> character have anyway?"
> GM: "In Hero, you have to buy everything with points."
> Newbie: "Huh?"

This is why I developed the concept of the Purchase Pool: basically a VPP
with the special effect that anything in it must be real-world technology
within the wealth perk of the character and available in a store
somewhere accessible.

VPP: Purchase Pool, limitations on Control Cost
-1/4 Cannot Change in combat-relevant time.
-1/2 Powers change only in given circumstance (store,open, has item)
-1/2 Restricted type of powers.

This is a net -1 1/4 limitation. One player took a "trading skill" to be
allowed to find stores really quickly. 27 points gives you a usable
20-point pool that can contain a handgun (D6+1RKA OAF) and a set of IR
goggles (IR Vision OAF Fragile) and a few other toys.



--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:05:19 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
CC: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>

>
> RAW> Hmmm....interesting thought. Instead of something like
>
> RAW> 50 5D6 EB NND Defense: 5 pts Power Defense.
>
> RAW> one could get much the same effect from
>
> RAW> 20 1D6 EB AVLD/Power Defense(+1 1/2) Autofire(+1 1/2)
> RAW> 16 +8 OCV only to offset Autofire penalties
>
> RAW> at a savings of 14 points. Hmmm....
>
> Bzzt! Bad thinking. And why is the damned thing Autofire?

Well, this was a joke, but IMHO, a small attack with Autofire can be used
as a way to describe a big attack with Reduced Penetration.

But, as I said, it was a joke.


>
> RAW> - given the power involved, very light rigid armor should not
> RAW> suffice to avoid constriction.
> RAW> - PD is not a defense to constriction unless it is rigid.
>
> Tell that to an anaconda. PD, which is based on Strength, certainly will
> help defened against constriction. A Force Field might not, though;
> depends on the SFX of the Force Field. If you want to go that route then
> you are looking at an AVLD: PD or rigid armor.

I suspect that you are under the misapprehension that constriction works
by crushing bones. This is not correct. Actually, I based my
construct on a recent discussion with a friend who has studied the
subject at some length, and who also plays Hero. Basically, Strength and
bodily resistance are irrelevant once constriction has commenced.

Breathing requires that the thorax and/or abdomen expand. Constriction
works by preventing this. Using strength to fight to breathe will place
enormous pressure on the internal organs, and will reverse the osmotic
pressure on the lungs, filling them with fluid, resulting in damage.

The reason that I selected a STUN-only attack is that, if a constrictor
is killed and removed, the victim recovers almost fully in a few minutes.
Once the victim is unconscious, then I would rule by SFX that the
Drowning rules take over: it takes a couple of minutes for brain death.

Now, in practice, animals panic and struggle, which causes massive
internal trauma and edema. If some player were to panic and fight it, I
might add some BODY damage by SFX.

Non-rigid armor would be irrelevant, since the . Rigid armor that is
light enough for the constrictor to crush would quickly be irrelevant,
except that it might be a cause of further injury.

In your campaign, you are free to seek other ways of pointing this, but
IMHO, the method described fits the special effect better than any other
reasonably simple construct, and better than most complex ones. I
suppose that one could represent the light armor non-effect as:

60 6D6 NND Constriction: No need to breathe or holding breath
or rigid armor
7 2D6 Suppress Rigid Armor Linked to Above(-1/2)

however, from a game balance point of view, the fact that the NND has a
more-than-adequate combination of defenses would make me feel wrong about
charging a PC for the extra points.


--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 20:31:59 -0500
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

"Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> wrote
>>>
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>
> Because Ego represents self-confidence, while Presence represents
> projection. See the other post contrasting Adolf Hitler with a monk.

Somewhere in the HSR (and I hope that I am not remembering something from
3ed here) it refers to PRE as representing morale -- low PRE characters
will not stand up to a fight, etc. I have always assumed that allowing
EGO to stand in for PRE as a defense was a crock so that mentalists would
not have to buy both EGO and PRE.
<<<

What do you interpret EGO as, then?

It's unfortunate that people tend to think of EGO as primarily a
stat for EGOists. To me, a big part of a hero is a heroic character,
which generally involves a strong will, and thus a high EGO.
Unfortunately, the system doesn't exactly encourage this - if EGO
were 1 point per point, we'd see a lot more heroes with nerves of
steel (which I think is good), but egoists would become too cheap
to build (or so I'm told.)

In any event, I consider the bravery you get from a high PRE as
being a little different from the bravery you get from EGO, though
both are reasonable constructions. A high PRE character is, in
addition to being impressive, more difficult to impress, either
because of pride, cockiness, or a sense of filling a heroic role. A
high EGO character, on the other hand, will be difficult to impress
because he knows his own capabilities, and because he can
emotionally deal with frightening situations (even the possibility
of injury or death.) The high PRE character is brave because of
his attitude toward the situation; the high EGO character
is brave because of his attitude toward himself.

Ironically, I'd probably build an egotistical character with a
high PRE (if he or she was impressive or brave) and a low EGO,
despite the inevitable egoist/egotist jokes. A big ego is different
from a high EGO, since an inflated sense of self importance is
certainly not a strong sense of self.

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 25 Mar 1998 21:28:27 -0500
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes:

RAW> I have always assumed that allowing EGO to stand in for PRE as a
RAW> defense was a crock so that mentalists would not have to buy both EGO
RAW> and PRE.

Time to check The Book and see what it has to say.

Ego (EGO)
This Characteristic represents a character's mental power and strength
of will.

Presence (PRE)
This Characteristic shows the forcefulness and charisma of a character.

Personally, if there is a crock, I would say it is in allowing Presence to
defend against Presence attacks.

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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
\ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.

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To: Geoff Speare <Geoff@igcn.com>
From: "Toren G. Atkinson" <thickets@uniserve.com>
Subject: Re: PLEASE READ: LIST IS MOVING!
Cc: hero-l@sysabend.org, champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:32:49 -0800
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

I've been trying to get off the list for a few days now. Not that it's not a
great list, but I just get too many emails per day for me to handle. Can you
get me off? Thanks. I'll keep my ears to the newsgroup, though. Thanks again.

At 02:24 PM 3/25/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Greetings,
>
>After many long years (and many long discussions :), I'm ceding the Hero
>System email list to John Desmarais, a long-time subscriber and Hero
>fan. As of right now, the addresses for the list are:
>
>hero-l@sysabend.org
>champ-l@sysabend.org (These both go to the same place, take your
>pick)
>
>For administrative stuff, send to one of:
>
>champ-l-request@sysabend.org
>hero-l-request@sysabend.org
>hero-request@sysabend.org (again, all of these go to the same place)
>
>Complaints and other matters should go to:
>
>owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>
>The @omg.org addresses will continue to work indefinitely (as forwards
>to the above addresses), but they may be cut off at any time (I don't
>work there any more). I strongly suggest that you start using the new
>addresses right away.
>
>As for me, I'll be taking a sabbatical from the list, but I'm sure I'll
>be back. (For those who are interested, I've just switched jobs, and I'm
>in the process of buying a house, so things are a bit busy.) Many thanks
>to all of those who I've talked with over the years...I'm sure I'll see
>you again soon!
>
>Farewell,
>
>Geoff Speare
>geoff@igcn.com
>
>
>
Upcoming performances by Cthulhu's Good-time boys, The Darkest of the
Hillside Thickets:
*Games University, March 27-29, 8pm Friday night at the "spacious" Chase
Suites in Fullerton, California. Email <ShadisAd@aol.com>
*April 9th (the Thursday night before Good Friday), headlining at The
Brickyard, Vancouver BC for a anti-logging benefit show. Damn loggers!.
*White Horse, Yukon, Easter weekend. More info forthcoming or email
tcumming@gov.yk.ca

Have you been to our website? Download the Thickets Cthulhuesque
screensaver: www.holycow.com/thickets
and check out the mayhem at our li'l newsgroup:
alt.music.darkest-of-the-hillside-thickets

This message is always sent unsolicited. The Darkest of the Hillside
Thickets: 302-1015 West 13th Ave Vancouver BC V6H 1N1

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:36:13 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: A 5th ed thought
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

>From the Herogames homepage:
>5th Edition Deadline Almost Here!
>
>Your last chance to get your input on the 5th Edition of the Hero System is
>rapidly approaching. If you haven't already, please send us your
questionnaire!
>The deadline is April 1, 1998. If you don't have a questionnaire, you can
find
>one on our News page.

Ya' know, everytime I see this on the homepage I get this sinking feeling
that fifth ed. is all just an April Fool's Day joke.

Just a thought.
Joe


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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 20:44:04 -0600
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

>> I have always assumed that allowing EGO to stand in for PRE as a
>> defense was a crock so that mentalists would not have to buy both EGO
>> and PRE.
>
>Time to check The Book and see what it has to say.
>
> Ego (EGO)
> This Characteristic represents a character's mental power and strength
> of will.
>
> Presence (PRE)
> This Characteristic shows the forcefulness and charisma of a character.
>
>Personally, if there is a crock, I would say it is in allowing Presence to
>defend against Presence attacks.

Easy to say now, but 1st-3rd Editions were PRE vs PRE only. There's also
a big difference between "strength of will" and "resistance to being
cowed/impressed".

Donald

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 19:07:10 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
CC: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> >>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes:
>
> RAW> Breathing requires that the thorax and/or abdomen expand. Constriction
> RAW> works by preventing this. Using strength to fight to breathe will place
> RAW> enormous pressure on the internal organs, and will reverse the osmotic
> RAW> pressure on the lungs, filling them with fluid, resulting in damage.
>
> Just yesterday, several people -- including you, Robert, if I recall
> correctly (which I might not; sorry) -- reamed me a new one because the
> mechanic I provided was "to real" and not sufficiently "comic-bookly".

Did I do that? I don't recall doing so, but I may have in the heat of
argument. I hope I didn't. After all, I *am* the guy who gives three
page lectures on real-world physics. :-)

Real-world physiology will not work for all cases -- Dr. Geriatric's ray
is a case in point -- but there are others where it will. I will plead
guilty to being inconsistent on this point. There are some concepts that
are just too much fun to leave alone, but I do try to maintain a level of
verisimilitude for the most part.

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 19:14:57 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org

Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>
> Because Ego represents self-confidence, while Presence represents
> projection. See the other post contrasting Adolf Hitler with a monk.

Somewhere in the HSR (and I hope that I am not remembering something from
3ed here) it refers to PRE as representing morale -- low PRE characters
will not stand up to a fight, etc. I have always assumed that allowing
EGO to stand in for PRE as a defense was a crock so that mentalists would
not have to buy both EGO and PRE.

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest


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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 00:09:14 EST
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Money
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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"In Hero, you have to buy everything with points."

This is not, nor ever was a hard and fast rule.

Mark @ GRG

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From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Object Damage
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 00:53:55 -0500
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On 3/25/98, David W. Salmon wrote:

> I also respectfully submit that velocity DOES have an impact on the
> amount of damage done by something. If an object is projected at fast
> enough velocity it will do more damage than the DEF+BODY would normally
> allow according to this newsgroup. Ex1) Water ... there are
> manufacturing plants which use water jet streams to cut through steel.
> Ex2) a BB ... I can throw a BB at someone and they would hardly know
> they've been hit, but if I use a BB gun which projects it at a high
> velocity it can penetrate skin and cause a lot more damage than one
> would expect.
>
> How would you add in damage for velocity if I have enough strength to
> hurl an object faster than 30" per phase (terminal velocity)?? Granted
> the object would probably shatter on impact but it should do more than
> DEF+BODY because of the velocity. That also brings up the question ...
> how would someone determine how FAST they can throw an object in order
> to determine the above damage?? Am I way off base here ?? Thanks in
> advance.
>
>
>...Dave S.

Several months back, there were posted to this mailing list several
house-rules versions of throwing, knockback, falling, and movement,
attempting to form more "realistic" guidelines for the GM. I was one of
those posters. I suppose we could have another go-round on interpreting
HERO damage, distance, and movement in rules in terms of real-world
physics to revise some of the more troublesome rules in the BBB.

One interesting movement system, created by John H. Kim, a regular on the
superhero newsgroup, can be found at:

http://www-e815.fnal.gov/~jhkim/rpg/hero/move.html


Two warnings: First, two of the tables on this web page are muddled by
incorrect codes--or at least, my Internet Explorer 3.02 couldn't interpret
them properly--making the text of them hard to decipher. Second,
exploring the various files in his personal index caused my system to
crash several times. Maybe it was his server or my ISP, maybe it was the
phase of the moon.

Kim's approach is geared at fixing the problematic Move By and Move
Through rules, introducing the idea of a Velocity Factor (VLF) as a
measure of velocity in inches/turn to replace the inches/phase velocity
figures in the rules, resulting in more reasonable damage for these two
maneuvers.

My own approach to throwing velocity and damage was to use rough energy
equivalents for damage dice and generate some new tables for falling,
throwing, and knockback. If you know how far a character of a given STR
can throw an object, either by using the table in the BBB or a house-rules
system, then you can estimate the initial velocity at which it's thrown,
and from there judge its damage energy based on velocity and mass. The
table looks something like the vehicle damage table from the Champions II
supplement (which I'd love to see brought back in the 5th Edition HERO
Rules, by the way). I'm game to post the stuff again if folks want it.

Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:00:45 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
To: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Money
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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GoldRushG wrote:
>
> "In Hero, you have to buy everything with points."
>
> This is not, nor ever was a hard and fast rule.

Yes but there's a lot of people out there failing their perception
rolls and seeing it that way. :)
Perhaps a larger section could be devoted to the relation between money
and points in the new edition. One which gives advice on several
possible angles on how to deal with the issue at various power and genre
settings.

--
Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role
Playing

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:25:12 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Ultimate Speedster Book
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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Hello;

Who's doing the Ultimate Speedster Book?
Anyone know their comic book credentials?
Is it someone who has read all the major speedster titles
(Flash, Impulse, Quicksilver) and even some of the more obscure (like
the Velocity mini-series)? Or is it just someone who's liked doing them
in game and never read any comics?

Being one of my favorite concepts, and being a reader of these titles;
I'd like to see how this project is going.

--
Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role
Playing

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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 01:35:58 -0500 (EST)
From: William K Bushway <wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Velocity! (was Re: Object Damage)
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On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, Len Carpenter wrote:

> On 3/25/98, David W. Salmon wrote:

<sni-zap>

> Kim's approach is geared at fixing the problematic Move By and Move
> Through rules, introducing the idea of a Velocity Factor (VLF) as a
> measure of velocity in inches/turn to replace the inches/phase velocity
> figures in the rules, resulting in more reasonable damage for these two
> maneuvers.

In a similar vein, is there any "generally accepted" way to
increase the rate at which a character reaches his/her max velocity? A
player of mine is designing a speedster character whose shctick is very
short bursts of hyperspeed. Consequently, she has a very small number of
inches of running (a total of 10"), but a realatively high (for the
campaign) Speed (8). With only 10", she can't effectively pull off her
disired tactic of short range Move-Throughs and Move-Bys.

After considering a HtH bonus, only for Move-Bys/Throughs, we
finally decided on " +X" Running, only to increase velocity (-3/4)."
Never a fan of HtH, I thought the +X method more flexible and appropriate
to the sFX. The character is limited to moving her 10", but her velocity
increases at the modified rate, see?

We haven't had a chance to playtest the character, but does anyone
find this blatantly abusive? Too "kludgey?" Any better ideas? Anybody?

William K. Bushway, wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu
http://Mason.GMU.edu/~wbushway/index.html
"I'm betting that I'm just abnormal enough to survive."
-The Tick, The Tick Vs.The Breadmaster

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From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Re: Money
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> "In Hero, you have to buy everything with points."
>
> This is not, nor ever was a hard and fast rule.

In fact in Fantasy HERO, they sugest you give items away, and in Danger
International and Super Agents they sugest a Brownie Point system for giving
additional equipment.

Not the BBB but Hero none the less...

Michael



Rising Force Publications
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist recently updated web site...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm

"You have never lived until you have almost died.
And for those who fight for it,
life has a flavor the protected never know"
- anonymous

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:01:40 -0800
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com>
Subject: Re: Ultimate Speedster Book
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At 10:25 PM 3/25/98 -0800, Rook wrote:
>Hello;
>
> Who's doing the Ultimate Speedster Book?
>Anyone know their comic book credentials?
> Is it someone who has read all the major speedster titles
>(Flash, Impulse, Quicksilver) and even some of the more obscure (like
>the Velocity mini-series)? Or is it just someone who's liked doing them
>in game and never read any comics?
>

That would be a good thing to know. The Flash family of titles has opened
some interesting ideas of where superspeed powers can come from with the
whole idea behind the Speed Force.

-Nic

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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:23:08 -0800
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Money
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Fantasy Hero 1st edition actually had a system for buying X cash with Y
points. Not that it would work outside that limited setting, but a
money/brownie points system might work if done right. Done wrong, it's a
disaster waiting to happen though.


Michael Nunn wrote:
>
> > "In Hero, you have to buy everything with points."
> >
> > This is not, nor ever was a hard and fast rule.
>
> In fact in Fantasy HERO, they sugest you give items away, and in Danger
> International and Super Agents they sugest a Brownie Point system for giving
> additional equipment.
>
> Not the BBB but Hero none the less...

--
Rook
__
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html Super Hero Links Page
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/ Super Hero Role
Playing

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From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Champions II Vehicle Damage
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 02:27:46 -0500
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Since I've referred to the very useful vehicle damage rules from the
out-of-print Champions II supplement several times in previous posts, I
decided to finally reproduce it for all those who will never see the old
book. I do hope it resurfaces in the 5th Edition rules (or TUSV, if Bob
Greenwade can).


Base Damage from Vehicle Velocity

MPH KPH Inches per Damage
Segment

2 4 1/2" 1d6
3 5 3/4" 2d6
5 7 1" 3d6
7 11 1 1/2" 4d6
9 14 2" 5d6
14 22 3" 6d6
18 29 4" 7d6
27 43 6" 8d6
36 58 8" 9d6
54 86 12" 10d6
72 115 16" 11d6
113 180 25" 12d6
144 230 32" 13d6
225 360 50" 14d6
288 461 64" 15d6
450 720 100" 16d6
563 900 125" 17d6
900 1440 200" 18d6
1125 2880 250" 19d6
1800 3600 400" 20d6
2250 5760 500" 21d6
3600 6400 800" 22d6


These damage figures are based on a 100 kg vehicle moving at a given
velocity. For every doubling of the vehicle's mass, add +1d6 damage:
+1d6 for a 200 kg vehicle, +2d6 for a 400 kg one, and so on.

Another approach is to look up the STR required to lift the vehicle in
question, subtract 10 from that STR, and divide by 5 to find the added
damage. For example, it takes a 10 STR to lift a motorbike, so (10-10)/5
= 0, hence no additional damage is done for its mass. It requires a 30
STR to lift a small car, so (30-10)/5 = +4d6 damage for its 1.6 ton mass.
Come to think of it, a GM could step downward in a similar fashion to
reduce damage for objects less massive than 100 kg, so a moving 50 kg
object does -1d6 damage and a 25 kg object does -2d6.

Assuming that every doubling of energy involves an additional d6 of
damage, these damage figures follow the formula for kinetic energy fairly
consistently. KE = 0.5 * m * v^2, so a doubling of an object's mass
doubles its kinetic energy, while a doubling of its velocity quadruples
its energy. A 100 kg mass traveling at 1/2" per segment or 1 m/sec has a
KE of 0.5 * (100) * (1)^2 = 50 joules, or 1d6 damage. Traveling at 3/4"
per segment or 1.5 m/sec gives it 113 joules, or 2d6 damage. Traveling at
1" per segment or 2 m/sec gives it 200 joules, or 3d6 damage.

Keep progressing up the table, and you can find out how much damage a
superhero traveling at near light-speed will do (about 57d6, I reckon,
discounting the effects of Special Relativity).

Note that these damage figures can differ markedly from what the Move
Through rule determines. The Move By and Move Through rules are clearly
troublesome, though, as the recent heated debates on the superheroes
newsgroup have shown.


Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com

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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: NND vs AVLD
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 00:58:43 -0800
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On Wednesday, March 25, 1998 10:27 AM, David Fair wrote:


>On 3/25/98 4:43 PM Bob Greenwade (bob.greenwade@klock.com) Said:
>
>> Why would a target with 9 Power Defense be less affected than one
with
>>8? There's no reason for him to. He's already met the requirement,
and
>>suffered zero effect.
>> Why would a target with 6 Power Defense be more affected than one
with
>>7? Again, there's no reason for him to. He's already failed the
>>requirement, and will suffer full effect unless he has one of the
other
>>defenses.
>> That is how NND works, plain and simple.
>>
>I do understand how NND's work, the Why's were there to ask what the
SFx
>justification was for this particular NND.


I believe there is a misunderstanding here. Even if there were _never_
a justification for the power, that is irrelevant to the question, "Is
it legal under the game mechanics?" As having x amount of power y is
clearly a circumstance, then it is a legal defense for an NND.

<snip>
>> This is an entirely different question, and one that has been
discussed
>>along a different thread.
>
>No, it is really the same question. As mechanics serve only to model
SFx
>in game terms, any discussion of mechanics apart from SFx is moot
>(although you can say things like "usually", or "for most Fx", etc).


No, it is not "moot". If I describe a power in purely mechanical
terms, without any SFX whatsoever, then it can be determined whether
or not it is legal under the game mechanics. SFX apply only in whether
or not it fits the character, weapon, or other circumstance, not
whether or not it is, strictly speaking, legal.

>>A poison dart is the most well-known example;
>>the dart does no real damage to the target, but is powerful enough
to
>>penetrate light armor. The dart has to penetrate the armor (if any)
for
>>the drug, which is the real effect of the weapon, to get into the
system.
>>So if "light" armor is 3 rPD, then one of the logical defenses is
having 4+
>>rPD on the location hit.
>> If the target has 4 rPD, then said target is unaffected. If it
doesn't,
>>then some other defense (such as immunity to poison) will be
required, or
>>the target will suffer full effect.
>
>I have not followed that thread (who could possibly read all the mail
>this list generates?), but it seems to me that this could be done as
an
>NND attack (the poison) linked to a 1/2d6 RKA. If, for SFx/Concept
>reasons, the purchaser of the power wanted the actual Dart to do _NO_
>harm (i.e., not even 1 pip of body or 1 stun), I'm sure that the GM
would
>make it so.
>So you get:
> 60 6d6 EB NND (not vs. LS:Poisons, or Immunity:"This Poison)
> 1 1/2 D6 RKA, Linked (to above), Does no game effect damage;
Only to
> used to determine success in "delivery" of linked
>attack (-10)
>Instead of:
> 60 6d6 EB NND (not vs. LS:Poisons, Immunity;"This Poison", or 4+
Pts
>of rPD)
>
>I guess neither construct is perfectly canonical, but I just feel
more
>comfortable with mine, as the second NND seems to violate the rule
for
>NND's, by placing that "4+ Pts" line in there.


Save that it doesn't. The description for NNDs clearly mentions that a
defence can be a "circumstance". A "circumstance" covers a great deal
of ground, and having a certain level of a defense qualifies as a
"circumstance".


Just because I cannot think up a good SFX for NND (not vs. blondes)
does not mean it is not legal. It is, but would be forbidden without
good SFX in many campaigns.

The question is not, "Is there an SFX that justifies such powers?" The
question is, "On a purely mechanical level, is it legal?"

<snip>
>
>I would probably model disorienting affects as dex drains, those with
the
>SFx you describe should probably be AVLD vs. Flash Def.

Perfectly acceptable. However, it has no bearing on the question, "Is
the original construction legal?"

>Why does 8 stop the effect cold, and 7 let it fully through? Why, if
as
>you say "higher amounts represent greater polarization and/or
resistance
>to short-term optical damage" does someone with 10 pts not suffer
more
>than someone with 20? That is the dynamic that I am not getting here.


There doesn't have to be a "dynamic" to determine if the power is
legal. That is the realm of SFX, and thus does not determine whether
or not the power is legal, strictly in terms of game mechanics.

If you wish to argue that there is no SFX that would be valid for such
NNDs, fine. However, that has nothing to do with whether or not they
are legal.

Filksinger


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From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Velocity! (was Re: Object Damage)
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 04:02:40 -0500
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> On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, Len Carpenter wrote:
>
> On 3/25/98, David W. Salmon wrote:
>
> <sni-zap>
>
>> Kim's approach is geared at fixing the problematic Move By and Move
>> Through rules, introducing the idea of a Velocity Factor (VLF) as a
>> measure of velocity in inches/turn to replace the inches/phase
velocity
>> figures in the rules, resulting in more reasonable damage for these
two
>> maneuvers.
>
> In a similar vein, is there any "generally accepted" way to
> increase the rate at which a character reaches his/her max velocity?
A
> player of mine is designing a speedster character whose shctick is
very
> short bursts of hyperspeed. Consequently, she has a very small
number of
> inches of running (a total of 10"), but a realatively high (for the
> campaign) Speed (8). With only 10", she can't effectively pull off
her
> disired tactic of short range Move-Throughs and Move-Bys.
>
> After considering a HtH bonus, only for Move-Bys/Throughs, we
> finally decided on " +X" Running, only to increase velocity (-3/4)."
> Never a fan of HtH, I thought the +X method more flexible and
appropriate
> to the sFX. The character is limited to moving her 10", but her
velocity
> increases at the modified rate, see?
>
> We haven't had a chance to playtest the character, but does anyone
> find this blatantly abusive? Too "kludgey?" Any better ideas?
Anybody?
>
> William K. Bushway, wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu


To summarize John H. Kim's method, his modified Move By and Move
Through maneuvers are (I'm quoting from his web page here, with some
editing by me):

OCV DCV Damage
Move By -2 -2 STR/2 + (VLF)d6
Move Through -(VLF) -3 (STR or Mass) + (VLF)d6

Move-By:
Move-By is handled just as before; the only change is the added damage
is based on VLF rather than (Velocity/5).

Move-Through:
Move-Through is somewhat changed. Move-through can represent any sort
of impact now: from a football player charging to a shotput slamming
into a wall. If the attacker is moving under his own power (i.e.
running, flight) then he has the option of using his STR or his Mass
Factor (the STR needed to lift him) in order to determine his damage.
He will take half this damage if he does Knockback, or the full amount
if he does no Knockback.

Example: An animated statue is charging at someone. The statue has 5
levels of Density Increase, but only 20 STR. It will use its 'Mass
Factor' of 35 in order to get a base damage of 7d6+(VLF)d6.

Uncontrolled Move-Through:
If the attacker is moving not under his own power (i.e. he was thrown,
is falling, gliding, etc.) then he must use his Mass Factor rather than
his STR to determine damage. This is used to determine the damage from
a runaway train, for example.

Note that a powered vehicle can use the greater of its STR or MASS, as
long it is driven into the victim. A car which is sliding out of
control, on the other hand, uses only its MASS to determine damage.

Furthermore, if the attacker is a living being, and is not in control
of his movement, then the damage which he takes from the Move-through
is doubled. That is, if he does knockback to his target, he takes the
full amount of damage he did. If he fails to do knockback to his
target, he takes twice as much damage as he did to it. This is because
he was braced badly for the impact.

A successful Breakfall roll (with GM determined penalties) halves this
damage--thus making it as usual for a Move-Through.

-------------

Now, John H. Kim uses VLF to represent a character's or an object's
velocity in inches/turn. He takes VLF from the Base DCV numbers in the
Optional Velocity DCV Table on page 142 of the BBB, breaking down the
table into finer, more gradual steps, instead of only odd numbers for
Base DCV. An 8 SPD character with 10" of Running can run at 80"/turn
at combat speed. This would give her a Base DCV of 5 from the DCV
Table, or a VLF of 5. So she can do +5d6 damage with a Move By or Move
Through for her speed. Her OCV when performing a Move Through is -5.
If she could move at a speed of 97"-125" per turn, her VLF would rise
to 6.

Personally, I would change the damage for a Move By to STR/2 +
(VLF-2)d6, to represent a reduced damage energy for speed where a
"glancing" Move By occurs rather than the full collision of a Move
Through. With the damage energy from speed reduced to one-quarter that
of a Move Through, the lady speedster would add only +3d6 for a Move
By.

An optional tack is to treat her Move Through like a vehicle collision
as described in Champions II (see my earlier post reproducing that
book's table). At 80"/turn, she would have a speed of 6.7"/segment,
about 30 mph. That gives her 8d6 damage, provided she can't add her
STR damage to the collision. Permit her to add her STR damage, and the
damage she can do may be unbalanced for the campaign.

You could modify the vehicle collision table by noting how Kim lets you
add a character's or a vehicle's "Mass Factor" to speed damage instead
of STR when performing a Move Through. It takes a 10 STR to lift a 100
kg mass, so subtract 2d6 from all the collision damage values. In
other words, the vehicle collision damage dice are now based on the
movement of an object it requires 0 STR to lift, or a 25 kg object.
The damage bonus for the lady speedster's Move Through drops to +6d6,
closer to Kim's VLF value. She can now add her STR or "Mass Factor" to
the +6d6 damage for speed to determine her final Move Through damage.
That's how I adopted and adapted Kim's VLF numbers, making them a bit
higher than Kim did.

Hope John H. Kim's ideas help.


Len Carpenter
redlion@early.com

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From: "Warren E Henderson III" <warren@newenglandpc.net>
To: "hero-l@sysabend.org" <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 98 09:50:08
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Subject: Re: Collision damage based on relative velocity?
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On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 20:43:11 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:

>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>
>> At 10:56 PM 3/24/1998 -0600, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>> > ----1-------
>> > / \
>> > / \
>> > 6 XBXOXBXGX 2
>> > / XMXAXDXEX \
>> > < XMXEXDXOX >
>> > \ XTXHXIXSX /
>> > \ /
>> > 5 3
>> > \ /
>> > \ /
>> > -----4--------
>>
>> XSXOXMXEX
>> XBXOXDXYX
>> XGXEXTXAX
>> XRXOXPXEX
>>
>
> What the hell????
>

Try reading the letters that are not X's :)


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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:12:53 +0000
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret
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I think the for 5ed, the "Secret Identity" disad ought to be subsumed into
a larger category of "Secret", as that would cover a lot of disads which
don't fall under Hunted/Watched or Psych Lims.

For example, I have created a character who has, for his own reasons,
needed to lie about where he's been since 1945. But this hidden history is
totally different in its game effects, and the potential effects on the
character, than a Secret Identity (which he also has). And one can be
revealed without effecting the other, necessarily. (In that the lie applies
only to the hero ID)

Other things include:Character killed at some point in the past, Character
has a power/ability many people consider evil or criminal, Character is
related to a master villain, etc.

I propose the Secret disad be modeled as follows:

Secret will cause embarassment or loss of status:5 points
Secret will cause ostracization, loss of home/property, or extreme
financial burden:10 points
Secret could get the character, or characters family, killed or imprisoned
for life:15 points

(Since a Secret ID is usually assumed 'to protect my loved ones!', most of
them are worth 15 points. OTOH, if no one would really *care* that Joe
Smith is really Megaultrahyperman, it could be worth only 5 or 10 points.)

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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 06:16:00 -0800
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com>
Subject: Re: Money
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At 11:23 PM 3/25/98 -0800, Rook wrote:
>Fantasy Hero 1st edition actually had a system for buying X cash with Y
>points. Not that it would work outside that limited setting, but a
>money/brownie points system might work if done right. Done wrong, it's a
>disaster waiting to happen though.
>

For my current Champions game, I basically handle it this way;

Money is an IC method for purchasing equipment.
Experience is the OOC method for purchasing equipment.

Whenever a player wants to get a new power, I always expect a logical IC
reason for that new power, whether its a device or a new slot in a
multi-power. Buying a piece of high tech equipment with a character's Money
is a solid IC reason for the character to be able to have it.

If someone wants to buy something for use in one adventure, ie a radio, a
handgun, a sword, charter an airplane, that sort of thing, it can be
purchased with a character's Money, rather than experience. If a player
wants that item for more than one adventure, she'll have to buy that item
with experience.

-Nic

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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:50:39 -0500
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Money
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by GoldRushG
> "In Hero, you have to buy everything with points."

This is not, nor ever was a hard and fast rule.<

Maybe I should have used the disclaimer that I still think of the Hero
System as a superhero system...that's all I use it for, and to be honest, I
was happier when the focus was 100% on supers. Money is more important in
fantasy and "normals" campaigns, but as far as I can tell, it is (for the
most part) irrelevant in a supers game. If money plays a big part in
anyone's supers game, I'd like to hear about it. I understand that a rich
character can get a lot of perks, but supers don't spend money to get
gadgets and things--otherwise, the Money perk would be extremely
unbalancing. Anyway, I definitely think this warrants being on the 5E
ambiguity list (I believe it was just added).

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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:45:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: CHAR: BTILC - Gracie Law
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"I'd go with you but..."
"Yeah, I know, there's something wrong with your face."

GRACIE LAW

Designers Notes:
Gracie Law is a Chinatown lawyer, and has a minor reputation for being
'trouble'. She gets involved with Jack and Wang when the Lords of Death
try and kidnap Tara, a Chinese immigrant Gracie is helping get started in
America. She is also trying to get the goods on Lo Pan so she can bring
his criminal empire down. Finally, she is the would-be love interest for
Jack Burton, who does the smart thing and leaves her behind at the end of
the film.

Description:
Gracie is of average height, with blonde hair, green eyes and pretty
features. She normally dresses in casual dress.

Powers Notes:
Powers? Well, Gracie Law is a lawyer, so she doesn't have any powers,
beyond being amazingly irritating.

Disadvantages Notes:
Gracie is very noisy, and even she admits to often "sticking my nose where
it doesn't belong". This has earned her the enmity of the Lords of Death,
or as she put is "All those slavers know my face and they'd want to push
it in."

The Character:

STAT VAL COST
Str 8 -2
Dex 10 0
Con 9 -2
Body 9 -2
Int 15 5
Ego 13 6
Pre 11 1
Com 12 1
PD 2 0
ED 2 0
Spd 2 0
Rec 4 0
End 18 0
Stun 18 0
Char Total 7
Power Total 18
Total Cost 25

COST POWERS & SKILLS
1 Perk: Lawyer
2 AK: Chinatown 11-
3 Bureacratics 11-
2 KS: Chinese Culture 11-
2 KS: Law 11-
2 LS: Lo Pan 11-
3 Oratory 11-
1 Persuasion 8-

Disadvantages
0 Base
5 DF: Green Eyes
15 Psych: Nosy
5 "She's trouble, she's a lawyer" Bonus

(Gracie Law created by Gary Oldman, David Weinstein, W.D. Richter and
John Carpenter. Character sheet created by Michael Surbrook)

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:55:59 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Usable Against Others question...
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Lizard wrote:
>
> I am designing a character with a fairly significant UAO power. However,
> she cannot use the power herself. Is that implied by UAO? It doesn't seem
> to be. How much of a limitation is "Can't use own power" worth?

There is nothing saying that a UAO power *cannot* be targeted on oneself,
which would not require an attack roll:

Usable Against Others requires an Attack Roll against
unwilling opponents.

HSR p. 98. Since, after all, one can hurt oneself with one's own Energy
Blast (the reason to buy Personal Immmunity) I would rule as follows:

Cannot Use Power on Self with UAO:

-1/2 useful on self.
-0 if a power that the character already has or doesn't need,
or already can't be used because of SFX or limitations.
(Power doesn't work on Aliens and char is an Alien.)
+1/4 if the power is dangerous: Area Effect Damage Shield.
(i.e. buy Personal Immunity)


--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest

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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:08:06 -0800
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Object Damage.
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At 08:34 PM 3/26/1998 -0800, Rick Holding wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> That said... I would still rather fall out of a third-story window and
>> land on a piano, than have said piano fall out of a third-story window and
>> land on me. Can you think of a reason that I shouldn't?
>
> Look at it from another viewpoint. What would be better, having a piano
>drop on you from a third story window or a person?
>
> Obviously, the option of choice is the person. Why? The piano is
>a. heavier and b. harder. This means it is going to hurt more. Again why?
>Because it has accumulated more force during its trip out the window
because it
>is heavier. Yes it will for all intents be moving at the same speed as the
>falling person but because it weighs more, its going to hurt more.

Bingo! And that's why I keep insisting that the damage, or at least the
minimum damage, should be based on the weight of the falling object. What
I don't know is how it should be applied (whether base or minimum damage,
whether the STR needed to lift it or the Casual STR from that base, or a
variety of other ideas).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm

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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:09:13 -0800
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
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Rick Holding wrote:
>
> Robert A. West wrote:
> > Now, how much of this is worth modeling is an interesting question: the
> > falling rules are IMHO broken, as is the rule that allows a speedster
> > flying at 10"/phase with +9NCM (around 10 kilometers per second) to stop
> > by doing a STR 5 movethrough on the ground, and only take 4D6 damage.
>
> Based on what formula, if I may ask? As far as I know, movethrough
> damage is calculated on strength + V/3. Thats it. No other modifiers.
>
> Unless there is something else that is not stated that will change this?

Somewhere (I can't find it and don't have time to look further just now)
there is a statement to the effect that only the basic amount of one's
move counts towards the movethrough. This is, AFAIK, a balance issue
designed to prevent people from destroying buildings and other stationary
objects.

Rat? Anyone? Do you know where this rule is?

> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
> Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
> -----------------------------------------------------------

--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest

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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:09:46 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
To: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Presence Attacks
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> I have been following this thread for a while and I wonder if people
> have forgotten that presense attacks are generally used to influance people
> to do things that they had not previously considered. Any sane person will
> want to run away from a. a very large fire and b. a very large dragon. End
> result, they need no encouragement to run. So while the dragon may have a
> large presence and a swag of bonuses, the presence attack is not really
> worth trying to figure out as just being there is enough to get them to
> leave.
>
> Consider it a plot device at this time.

Actually, the PRE attack is useful for those that are so
frightnened they can't run and just stand around stunned until the Dragon
eats them.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:11:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Big Trouble question
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Does anyone remember what Egg Shen said his 6-Demon Bag contained?

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:12:59 EST
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Ultimate Speedster Book
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In a message dated 3/25/98 11:29:49 PM, rook@infinex.com wrote:

<<Hello;



Who's doing the Ultimate Speedster Book?

Anyone know their comic book credentials?

Is it someone who has read all the major speedster titles

(Flash, Impulse, Quicksilver) and even some of the more obscure (like

the Velocity mini-series)? Or is it just someone who's liked doing them

in game and never read any comics?



Being one of my favorite concepts, and being a reader of these titles;

I'd like to see how this project is going.>>

Marc Blumberg is writing this book, and he's a longtime fan of the Flash and
other speedsters. He's working on the final parts of the manuscript now, and
then it will go into editing. The initial draft looked very good.

-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games

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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: CHAR: BTILC - Gracie Law
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Hi Mike. You've been doing a great job with the BTILC characters so far, but
I've got some problems with your writeup of Gracie...

>GRACIE LAW

>Designers Notes:
>Gracie Law is a Chinatown lawyer, and has a minor reputation for being
>'trouble'.

Then why doesn't she have 'Reputation: Nosy, Troublesome Lawyer 11-,
Chinatown (limited area)' for 5 points? "I've been trying to get somebody,
anybody to listen to me..." well, with a Reputation like that, no wonder few
people listen.

>She gets involved with Jack and Wang when the Lords of Death
>try and kidnap Tara, a Chinese immigrant Gracie is helping get started in
>America. She is also trying to get the goods on Lo Pan so she can bring
>his criminal empire down.

Psych.Lim.: Obsession (Bringing down David Lo Pan) (Common, Moderate). 10
more points for Gracie. (or 'Hates David Lo Pan', Uncommon, Strong)

>Finally, she is the would-be love interest for
>Jack Burton, who does the smart thing and leaves her behind at the end of
>the film.

Hey, be nice...:-)

>Description:
>Gracie is of average height, with blonde hair, green eyes and pretty
>features. She normally dresses in casual dress.

Just a note here: The actress who plays Gracie (Kim Cattrall) can also be
seen in the _great_ (hey, I love it) dark future/horror flick Split Second
(with Rutger Hauer). I find it interesting that she stars in my two favorite
movies (BTILC and Split Second), but she's not the reason I like either
films. Though she does just fine in both films - that's besides the point.
:-). Anybody know some other films with Kim?

>Disadvantages Notes:
>Gracie is very noisy, and even she admits to often "sticking my nose where
>it doesn't belong". This has earned her the enmity of the Lords of Death,
>or as she put is "All those slavers know my face and they'd want to push
>it in."

Howabout a Hunted then? Y'know, Hunted: Lords of Death 8- (AsPow - MPow when
it comes to combat, but Gracie is a lawyer, and only idiots mess up lawyers
unless they have to). Another 5 points for Gracie.

>The Character:
>
>STAT VAL COST
>Str 8 -2
>Dex 10 0
>Con 9 -2
>Body 9 -2
>Int 15 5
>Ego 13 6

I'll point out Gracie 'fought like a wildcat' when captured (they had to tie
her up), fought the Ogre constantly (hell, she kicked the poor critter in
the gonads later on), and broke out of Lo Pan's hypnosis at one point.
Gracie deserves a lot more EGO (maybe 18 EGO), especially since you gave
Jack Burton 18 STR and 20 CON. In fact, I'd lower her INT to 13 (sure she's
a lawyer, but she does some flat out _dumb_ stuff, like hunting Lo Pan).

>Pre 11 1
>Com 12 1

:-( Kim's better looking than that. 16 COM.

>Disadvantages
>0 Base
>5 DF: Green Eyes

??? This is not worth points for a caucasian woman - even in the context of
the film. It's worth points on an asian woman for sheer rarity, but that's
another story.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Now, we get bigger guns."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins and Ron Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:00:32 -0600 (CST)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Velocity! (was Re: Object Damage)
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> After considering a HtH bonus, only for Move-Bys/Throughs, we
> finally decided on " +X" Running, only to increase velocity (-3/4)."
> Never a fan of HtH, I thought the +X method more flexible and appropriate
> to the sFX. The character is limited to moving her 10", but her velocity
> increases at the modified rate, see?
>
> We haven't had a chance to playtest the character, but does anyone
> find this blatantly abusive? Too "kludgey?" Any better ideas? Anybody?

You had the right idea the first time. This is a case of wanting
extra damage, plain and simple. Therefore, use the simplist method of
extra HtH dice.



-Tim Gilberg

-"Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies."

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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:01:41 -0500 (EST)
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Big Trouble question
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>Does anyone remember what Egg Shen said his 6-Demon Bag contained?

"Wind, thunder, all that stuff!" (or was it fire, thunder...)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Now, we get bigger guns."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins and Ron Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:29:16 -0800
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com>
Subject: Re: CHAR: BTILC - Gracie Law
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At 11:57 AM 3/26/98 -0500, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>Hi Mike. You've been doing a great job with the BTILC characters so far, but
>I've got some problems with your writeup of Gracie...
>
>>GRACIE LAW
>
>>Designers Notes:
>>Gracie Law is a Chinatown lawyer, and has a minor reputation for being
>>'trouble'.
>
>Then why doesn't she have 'Reputation: Nosy, Troublesome Lawyer 11-,
>Chinatown (limited area)' for 5 points? "I've been trying to get somebody,
>anybody to listen to me..." well, with a Reputation like that, no wonder few
>people listen.
>

That's a good idea, I'm not sure if she's really hunting David Lo Pan,
since on her own she can't really touch him.

>
>Just a note here: The actress who plays Gracie (Kim Cattrall) can also be
>seen in the _great_ (hey, I love it) dark future/horror flick Split Second
>(with Rutger Hauer). I find it interesting that she stars in my two favorite
>movies (BTILC and Split Second), but she's not the reason I like either
>films. Though she does just fine in both films - that's besides the point.
>:-). Anybody know some other films with Kim?
>

Kim Cattrall has a pretty extensive Career. The Internet Movie Database can
list all the stuff she's done, but she's been in such genre TV shows as
Logan's Run ('79) and Tales of the Gold Monkey ('82) to movies. She was Lt.
Valeris in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country ('91), Unforgettable
('96) and a vampire movie due out this year called The Revenant.

>
>Howabout a Hunted then? Y'know, Hunted: Lords of Death 8- (AsPow - MPow when
>it comes to combat, but Gracie is a lawyer, and only idiots mess up lawyers
>unless they have to). Another 5 points for Gracie.
>

I'm not sure a hunted would be appropriate, unless they were actively after
her. She should have a Rep, but unless she's currently a target, no hunted.

>
>I'll point out Gracie 'fought like a wildcat' when captured (they had to tie
>her up), fought the Ogre constantly (hell, she kicked the poor critter in
>the gonads later on), and broke out of Lo Pan's hypnosis at one point.
>Gracie deserves a lot more EGO (maybe 18 EGO), especially since you gave
>Jack Burton 18 STR and 20 CON. In fact, I'd lower her INT to 13 (sure she's
>a lawyer, but she does some flat out _dumb_ stuff, like hunting Lo Pan).
>

She did have a pretty good willpower, a higher EGO would seem appropriate.

>>Pre 11 1
>>Com 12 1
>
>:-( Kim's better looking than that. 16 COM.

I'd agree with that too, maybe even a higher presence, since she's not
easily intimidated, although she doesn't really scare people either.

>
>>Disadvantages
>>0 Base
>>5 DF: Green Eyes
>
>??? This is not worth points for a caucasian woman - even in the context of
>the film. It's worth points on an asian woman for sheer rarity, but that's
>another story.
>

That depends, having Green Eyes is dangerous in the world of BTILC, so it
would be a disad in this world, even for a Caucasian woman. It could get
you married and sacrificed to a demon. :)

-Nic
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| naneiden@iswest.com |
| Justice, Like Lightning, Thunderbolts! |
| http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/thunder.html |
| Costumed Heroines |
| http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/index.html |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:58:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
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On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, John and Ron Prins wrote:

> >Does anyone remember what Egg Shen said his 6-Demon Bag contained?
>
> "Wind, thunder, all that stuff!" (or was it fire, thunder...)

Yeah, my problem exactly. I can't remember either...

"something, something all that sort of thing!"

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************

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From: SteveL1979 <SteveL1979@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:01:41 EST
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
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In a message dated 98-03-26 12:17:58 EST, you write:

<< >Does anyone remember what Egg Shen said his 6-Demon Bag contained?

"Wind, thunder, all that stuff!" (or was it fire, thunder...) >>

Seems to me it was, "Thunder, lightning, all that sort of thing!", but it's
been a while....

Steve Long

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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:05:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: CHAR: BTILC - Gracie Law
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On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, John and Ron Prins wrote:

> Hi Mike. You've been doing a great job with the BTILC characters so far, but
> I've got some problems with your writeup of Gracie...

Yeah, well, Gracie was a last minute addition...

> >GRACIE LAW
>
> >Designers Notes:
> >Gracie Law is a Chinatown lawyer, and has a minor reputation for being
> >'trouble'.
>
> Then why doesn't she have 'Reputation: Nosy, Troublesome Lawyer 11-,
> Chinatown (limited area)' for 5 points? "I've been trying to get somebody,
> anybody to listen to me..." well, with a Reputation like that, no wonder few
> people listen.

Hmmm... uh... <scribble, scribble> let me get that down...

> >Finally, she is the would-be love interest for
> >Jack Burton, who does the smart thing and leaves her behind at the end of
> >the film.
>
> Hey, be nice...:-)

Can you guess I'm not impressed with Kim Cattrall?

>
> >Disadvantages Notes:
> >Gracie is very noisy, and even she admits to often "sticking my nose where
> >it doesn't belong". This has earned her the enmity of the Lords of Death,
> >or as she put is "All those slavers know my face and they'd want to push
> >it in."
>
> Howabout a Hunted then? Y'know, Hunted: Lords of Death 8- (AsPow - MPow when
> it comes to combat, but Gracie is a lawyer, and only idiots mess up lawyers
> unless they have to). Another 5 points for Gracie.

To tell the truth, I didn't bother to give her a bunch of disads after I
the one's I selected paid for her point total. That was pretty remiss of
me all things considered.

> >Ego 13 6
>
> I'll point out Gracie 'fought like a wildcat' when captured (they had to tie
> her up), fought the Ogre constantly (hell, she kicked the poor critter in
> the gonads later on), and broke out of Lo Pan's hypnosis at one point.
> Gracie deserves a lot more EGO (maybe 18 EGO), especially since you gave
> Jack Burton 18 STR and 20 CON. In fact, I'd lower her INT to 13 (sure she's
> a lawyer, but she does some flat out _dumb_ stuff, like hunting Lo Pan).

Sounds good. Although I will argure that Jack does deserve the 18 STR and
20 Con, esp considering some of the abuse he endures.

> >Pre 11 1
> >Com 12 1
>
> :-( Kim's better looking than that. 16 COM.

sez you. Miao Yin, not that's a 16 COM. ^_^

> >Disadvantages
> >0 Base
> >5 DF: Green Eyes
>
> ??? This is not worth points for a caucasian woman - even in the context of
> the film. It's worth points on an asian woman for sheer rarity, but that's
> another story.

Normally, yes, but not in the BTILC universe.

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* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:20:11 -0800
From: Clinton Chard <chud@pioneer.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: PRe: NND vs AVLD
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This is very well written, Bravo! I'm filing this one away.

Bill Svitavsky wrote:

> At 03:31 PM 3/25/98 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> >>>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes:
> >
> >RAW> As I interpret this type of sequence, if one were to construct the
> >RAW> phantasm, it would be modelled by Images, not by Mental Illusions.
> >RAW> This is the reason for avoiding Mental Defense, hence not an AVLD.
> >RAW> Courage and Faith are, IMHO, modelled by PRE, not EGO, and certainly
> >RAW> Mental Defense should not come into the equation.
> >
> >As I previously stated, I disagree. Ego is the "strength" of one's mind;
> >Presence is what the person projects. I like to use Adolph Hitler as an
> >example of this, an ugly coward with a powerful ability to project. High
> >Presence, low COM and Ego.
> >
>
> Daniel Goleman's book _Emotional Intelligence_, which despite making the
> best seller list a couple of years back is pretty good, makes a distinction
> between Interpersonal Intelligence and Intrapersonal Intelligence; I tend
> to use this distinction as the difference between PRE and EGO.
>
> Interpersonal Intelligence (PRE) is the understanding of one's effect on
> other people - both manipulating people and understanding them by picking
> up on subtle hints. While the PRE of Hero characters includes some purely
> external factors unrelated to this "intelligence" (size, glowing red eyes &
> fangs, or whatever), this ability is clearly reflected in all the PRE
> skills and seems like a good basis for both offensive and defensive PRE.
>
> Intrapersonal Intelligence is the ability to understand one's inner self,
> which can be applied both for self control and self understanding. It is,
> as Rat observed for EGO, the "strength" of one's mind - but it is very much
> an inner strength, resisting external events by achieving a strong inner
> structure.
>
> By this reckoning, a High PRE, low EGO character (like Hitler) might be
> very skilled at dealing with other people, but would have little
> understanding of the forces that drove him, making him more vulnerable to
> personal flaws (and anything requiring an EGO roll.) A low PRE, high EGO
> character (say, a stereotypical monk) might have little understanding of
> interaction with others, but would have a rich inner life which would
> support him through the outer world's difficulties.
>
> The Hero skills tend to focus on the more active dimensions of both these
> intelligences: PRE skills are most often about affecting others (Seduction,
> Persuasion, Oratory) though understanding them is probably implicit in the
> process (especially so with Conversation.) Dealing with adventure
> scenarios, EGO inevitably gets used more to drive one through the outer
> world than to achieve inner understanding ("Quick! Make an EGO roll to find
> insight into your issues with your parents!") But I think the
> Inter/Intrapersonal division is a useful one for PRE and EGO.



--
"Contrariwise," Continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be; and if it
were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." -Lewis Carroll

Clinton Chard


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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:26:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
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Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret
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This idea is very much like 'Secret' from GURPS. Which is, IMHO, a good
thing, since the GURPS Secret allows for many more permutations than
simple SID.

It is also useful for such tings as:
Secret - homosexual
Secret - former spy
Secret - commited murder in the past
Secret - alien

etc, etc.

When I adpated the Wildcards charactes about a year ago, I did use SID for
some of these, since it was the only that seemed to fit.

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:41:06 -0500 (EST)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: CHAR: BTILC - Gracie Law
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>> >Finally, she is the would-be love interest for
>> >Jack Burton, who does the smart thing and leaves her behind at the end of
>> >the film.
>>
>> Hey, be nice...:-)
>
>Can you guess I'm not impressed with Kim Cattrall?

She's not bad. Most of my 'affection' for her comes from the fact that she's
in my two favorite movies. It's not like I'm going to see a movie just
because it's got Kim Cattrall in it.

>To tell the truth, I didn't bother to give her a bunch of disads after I
>the one's I selected paid for her point total. That was pretty remiss of
>me all things considered.

<fwap-fwap-fwap!>

>Sounds good. Although I will argure that Jack does deserve the 18 STR and
>20 Con, esp considering some of the abuse he endures.

Personally, I would've pegged Jack at 15 STR. Sure, he's got muscles, but
18-20 STR IMHO takes more muscles than Jack displayed. Jack _was_ pretty
tough, mind you - he gets kicked through a wall by Rain at The White Tiger
and pretty much shrugs it off, not to mention getting slammed around by
Thunder in the torture chamber without lasting effect.

>> >Pre 11 1
>> >Com 12 1
>>
>> :-( Kim's better looking than that. 16 COM.
>
>sez you. Miao Yin, not that's a 16 COM. ^_^

Split the difference? 14 COM? Margo is 10 COM, and Gracie is a lot better
looking than Margo.

>> >5 DF: Green Eyes
>>
>> ??? This is not worth points for a caucasian woman - even in the context of
>> the film. It's worth points on an asian woman for sheer rarity, but that's
>> another story.
>
>Normally, yes, but not in the BTILC universe.

I think that's stretching it. Gracie's green eyes are a plot point, but not
a distinctive feature (after all, Jack's truck gets stolen, but you didn't
insert DNPC: Truck* in his writeup, did you? Poor old Porkchop Express <snif>).

*DNPC vehicle? Why the hell not? If it's not easily replaced, has
sentimental value and is frequently threatened/damaged/stolen, it sure looks
like a DNPC...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Now, we get bigger guns."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins and Ron Prins
jprins@interhop.net

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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:49:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: CHAR: BTILC - Egg Shen
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[here goes nothing...]


"I am the past Lo Pan, come back to haunt you!"

EGG SHEN

Designers Notes:
Egg Shen is a Chinatown tour bus driver, running Egg Fu Young Tours out of
what looks to be a converted firehouse. He also happens to be an
accomplished sorcerer and the "local authority on Lo Pan." He has been
hunting Lo Pan for sometime now, but has never had the opportunity to
strike a final blow against Lo Pan's great evil... until now. Armed with
his Six-Demon Bag, a magic potion and accompanied by jack Burton, Wang Chi
and a half-dozen Chang Sings, Egg gambles everything on one last desperate
attempt to free Miao Yin and Gracie Law from Lo Pan's clutches before Lo
Pan frees himself from his awful curse and goes on to rule the world from
beyond the grave. (whew...)

Description:
Egg is fairly short (a bit shorter than Wang Chi) and a touch rotund. He
has scraggly hair is in bad need of a shave, and has an odd -wall-eyed
look that is a touch disturbing. Normally, he dresses in Western
fashions, although he dons more traditional dress to do battle with Lo
Pan.

Powers Notes:
Egg is a powerful Chinese sorcerer. Based on the scene where Jack, Wang
and the Chang Sings gather in Egg's home, I'd guess Egg Shen's speciality
to be alchemy. Jack does announce that "This place is a dump.", while
Wang replies "To Western eyes? Maybe. But, the contents of these bottles
are priceless."

I've divided Egg's powers into three categories; sorcery, Six-demon Bag
and his magic potion. Specific details of each Eggs powers are as
follows:

Chinese Sorcery Powers:
Early on in "Big Trouble", Egg Shen demonstrates a from of divination,
casting what look like animal bones and coins in a small mat to predict
the outcome of the conflict with Lo Pan. I've also given him a Power Pool
similar to the Power Pools possessed by the Three Storms. For more
information on how best to set up this Pool, see the character sheet for
Lightning.

Six Demon Bag:
Egg states that the 'Six Demon Bag' contains "Wind, fire, all that sort of
thing!". I don't know about that, but it sure contains some odd devices.
Egg produces small explosive pellets several times, powerful enough to
pitch Thunder of a wall, or toss a group of guards around. He also pulls
out a 'rocket launcher', that fires a chunk of what looks like ice (or a
crystal) from a wooden tube. Finally, he hauls out a large silver fan
while facing Lightning, using it to reflect Lightning's attack right back
at him.

The Magic Potion is a tricky one. Egg states that drinking it will allow
one to; "See things no one else can see, do things no one else can do!"
When Jack asks "What's this do again, exactly?" Egg's answer is "Gives
buzz!". The construction I have presented below was written up by John
Prins, which looks good enough to allow a small group of people to tackle
a large number of foes and come out on top.

Specifically, the potion looks to dispel fear (Jack states how "I don't
feel scared at all") and grant the drinker above normal fighting prowess
(as a friend of mine put it: "It's a D&D Superheroism potion). It has the
most obvious effect on Wang, since we see him run up and around a door
arch, duel Rain to a stand still, and make a number of spectacular leaps
through the air. Now, one can also make a case that Jack's reflection
ability (where he catches the knife Lo Pan threw and tosses it back) is
partially a result of the potion as well.

There are two powers of Eggs that I really have to admit failure on trying
to recreate. The first occurs in the Vault of the Dead Trees, where...
*something* crawls out of a cave and eats an unfortunate Chang Sing. Eggs
produces a handful of pellets and tosses them into the cave entrance,
producing a bright flash and a cloud of smoke. Pointing at the cave, he
then intones "You will come out no more!" Okay... Invisible Force Wall
perhaps? Anyway, I agree with Jack on this one: "WHAT? What will come
out no more?"

Egg's other 'odd' power is used during his duel with Lo Pan. He assumes a
fighting stance and a beam of light shoots from his hands at Lo Pan. Lo
Pan gets into a similar stance, and launches his own beam. When the two
beams meet, we see the silhouetted forms of two warriors dressed in
ancient armor dueling with swords. After a lot of grunting, shouting and
bright lights, the two vanish in a big flare of light and sound. I have
no idea *what* they were supposed to be doing, but it sure looked cool.

Disadvantages Notes:
For all his power, Egg does seem to be just a 'normal' human. I'm not
certain how old he really is, as an alchemist, he might be far older than
he looks, although I doubt he's an immortal. The Age disad was an
educated guess, since he didn't look to be all *that* sprightly.

It seems a safe bet that Egg is hunted (probably indirectly) by the forces
of Lo Pan. He is well known to Lo Pan, and their words indicated that
they have clashed many times before ("You never could beat me, Egg Shen!")
Egg is also well known in the local area, having the reputation of a rich
and powerful Chinese sorcerer, local Lo Pan authority and tour bus driver.

As far as his psych lims go, Egg will certainly stand by his allies and
friends come hell or high water. In the opening of "Big Trouble" we see
him obviously getting threatened (or close to it) with contempt of court
for refusing to speak about Jack Burton or his whereabouts. It goes
without saying that he has been hunting Lo Pan for sometime, and is
willing to sacrifice himself to bring Lo Pan down ("If we reach Lo Pan..."
"When!"). Finally, Egg, being an old and wise sorcerer, has little
patience for those that rush in without a second thought ("You tried the
front door and see where that got you?"). As he tells Gracie Law, "We
must gather our strength...", for that is the only way to "bring order out
of chaos...".

The Character:

STAT VAL COST
Str 10 0
Dex 17 21
Con 13 6
Body 10 0
Int 20 10
Ego 23 26
Pre 13 3
Com 10 0
PD 4 2
ED 4 1
Spd 4 13
Rec 5 0
End 26 0
Stun 22 0
Char Total 82
Power Total 227
Total Cost 309

COST POWERS & SKILLS
Chinese Sorcery Powers:
12 Precognition: Clairsentience (future), 0 END, Extra Time:
1 Hour (-2 1/2), No Range (-1/2), OAF - Divination materials
40 40 Point Variable Power Pool: Sorcery
40 VPP Control Cost: No Time, No Skill Rolll, Limited SFX: Eastern
Sorcery

Six Demon Bag:
33 8d6 EB (physical), DBL KB, AoE: 1 Hex, Gestures: must
throw (-1/4), Cannot move and attack (-1/4), 9 uses, OAF: magic
crystals
17 12 EB (physical), Cannot move and attack (-1/4), 3 uses, OAF:
launching tube
17 Missle Deflection: All Ranged Attacks, +6 OCV, May Reflect back at
attacker, Magical Attacks Only (-1), OAF: Fan

Magic Potion:
8 Aid: 1d6 to STR, DEX, CON, PRE, REC, END, STUN and Running,
All at once (+2), Fades at 5 Points per 5 hours (+1), Gestures:
must drink (-1) 8 charges, OAF: Magic Potion
12 Detect magic: Sense, ranged, Useable by Self and 8 others at
Range (+1 3/4), Gestures: must drink (-1), OAF: Magic Potion
24 +2 Overall Levels, Useable by Self and 8 others at Range (+1 3/4),
Gestures: must drink (-1), OAF: Magic Potion

25 Base: "Egg Fu Young Tours" 125 points
3 AK: Chinatown 13-
3 AK: Chinatown sewer system 13-
3 AK: San Francisco 13-
2 KS: Chinese History 13-
2 KS: Chinese Philosophy 13-
2 KS: Chinese Sorcery 13-
2 KS: History of Chinatown 13-
2 KS: Lo Pan 13-
2 KS: Magical Creatures 13-
2 PS: Tour Bus Driver (Egg Foo Young tours) 11-
3 SC: Alchemy 13-
1 TF: Bus
3 Scholar
5 Perk: Wealth
4 Lang: Catonese (native), English

Disadvantages
100 Base
5 Age: 40+
15 Hunted: David Lo Pan (MoPow, NCI, Lom Geo) 8-
20 Normal Characteristic Maxima
15 Psych: Protective of Allies ("You leave Jack Burton alone!")
10 Psych: Hunting Lo Pan ("The evil dream must die...")
10 Psych: Limited tolerance for braggarts and fools ("And a smart man
knows enough to get in out of the rain!")
5 Rep: Chinese sorcerer, 11- (limited area)
129 Local Authority on Lo Pan Bonus

(Egg Shen created by Gary Oldman, David Weinstein, W.D. Richter and
John Carpenter. Character sheet created by Michael Surbrook, additional
material by John Prins)

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* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:52:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: CHAR: BTILC - Gracie Law
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On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, John and Ron Prins wrote:

> >To tell the truth, I didn't bother to give her a bunch of disads after I
> >the one's I selected paid for her point total. That was pretty remiss of
> >me all things considered.
>
> <fwap-fwap-fwap!>

Thank you sir, may I have another!!!?

> >Sounds good. Although I will argure that Jack does deserve the 18 STR and
> >20 Con, esp considering some of the abuse he endures.
>
> Personally, I would've pegged Jack at 15 STR. Sure, he's got muscles, but
> 18-20 STR IMHO takes more muscles than Jack displayed. Jack _was_ pretty
> tough, mind you - he gets kicked through a wall by Rain at The White Tiger
> and pretty much shrugs it off, not to mention getting slammed around by
> Thunder in the torture chamber without lasting effect.

It's that break point thing... A Chang Sing as 13, Wang has 15, so Jack,
wh is stronger than Wang, has 18... I made it 18 based onthe wheelchair
stunt and his hand-over-hand bit around the edge of the slave bridge. He
just seemed strong.

And yes, his getting kicked by Rainand getting up went along way to my
giving hima 20 CON.

> >> >Pre 11 1
> >> >Com 12 1
> >>
> >> :-( Kim's better looking than that. 16 COM.
> >
> >sez you. Miao Yin, not that's a 16 COM. ^_^
>
> Split the difference? 14 COM? Margo is 10 COM, and Gracie is a lot better
> looking than Margo.

Okay.

> >> >5 DF: Green Eyes
> >>
> >> ??? This is not worth points for a caucasian woman - even in the context of
> >> the film. It's worth points on an asian woman for sheer rarity, but that's
> >> another story.
> >
> >Normally, yes, but not in the BTILC universe.
>
> I think that's stretching it. Gracie's green eyes are a plot point, but not
> a distinctive feature (after all, Jack's truck gets stolen, but you didn't
> insert DNPC: Truck* in his writeup, did you? Poor old Porkchop Express <snif>).

Of, DF out, your other stuff in.

> *DNPC vehicle? Why the hell not? If it's not easily replaced, has
> sentimental value and is frequently threatened/damaged/stolen, it sure looks
> like a DNPC...

I like it! I like it! Heh, thanks!

***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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