Week Ending April 4, 1998

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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net> 
Subject: RE: Change Environment: What's it good for? 
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At 09:38 AM 3/27/98 -0500, BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us> wrote: 
 
>While I agree an expanded Change Environment with options for some  
>combat effects would be handy, I've never had a problem coming up  
>with uses for CE as it stands. 
 
This is one of the major problems I have with both Change Environment itself 
and some of the proposed solutions.  Why buy Change Environment at all?  Why 
not buy the powers that represent the effects you want to create? 
 
For example: 
 
BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us> also wrote: 
 
>Granted, mechanics are left very vague, but a good GM will give  
>PER penalties in rain or snowstorms, DEX roll penalties from water  
>on a slippery surface, etc.  
 
Why not buy something that inflicts those penalties?  (Yeah, yeah, those 
penalities aren't easily inflcited with the powers we have.) 
 
 
BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us> also wrote: 
>Similarly, an area of warmth can keep the heroes going as  
>they pursue a villain through the arctic (there's a slight overlap  
>with Life Support with benign effects, so make sure there's a  
>good reason to build them as CE.) 
 
Similarly, why not just buy said Life Support? 
 
 
And BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us> wrote: 
>Finally, Change Environment is great for some character bits 
>providing atmosphere. When you can feel the cold of the grave  
>around the Frozen Ghost, you know he's pretty scary - and he  
>can probably depend on frequent extra dice to his PRE attacks  
>either for demonstrating his power or having an appropriate setting. 
 
Or you could buy extra PRE because Frozen Ghost is scary. . . . 
 
 
 
If, as many have noted, the best use of Change Environment is to simulate 
collateral effects of powers (Fire Guy can make things hot, Ice Guy makes 
things cold, Lightning Guy makes everyone's hair stand up, Creepy Guy has 
eerie background music), shouldn't it cost less?  The rule for Change 
Environment says it doesn't affect combat, so why pay many points for a 
power you know when you buy it because it says so on the label has no effect? 
 
 
It should cost less.  Or it should have clear effects that other powers do 
not duplicate. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
grant 
 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: Change Environment: What's it good for? 
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In repsonse to Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net&g> question: 
 
>> So the big question is: why buy Change Environment? 
> 
 
At 09:57 AM 3/27/98 -0600, "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> wrote: 
 
>	For character flavor.  Because it fits a desired concept.  Buying 
>everything because it is min-maxed effective isn't being true to a 
>role-playing concept. 
 
 
I have no problem buying things to fulfill a character's concept.  The 
difficulty I have is in buying a power that has effects of which I can't be 
certain when I buy it. 
 
Some things I'll pay for.  Hulk, for example, emits gamma radiation, but how 
much should Hulk pay to do something that's generally useless?  (Hulk angry. 
Hulk smash.) 
 
I'd much rather pay for powers I know the effects of.  Otherwise I feel like 
I'm getting the hard sell: and I'll buy the extended warranty because Mr. 
Salesguy says I need it? 
 
Something feels wrong with Change Environment.  Besides the previously 
mentioned examples (Special Effects Guy uses CE to produce his Special 
Effects), what use is the power?  Should it be scrapped?  Or can it be 
clarified so you know when you purchase your power what you get? 
 
 
 
grant 
 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: 5th EDITION: Two Area Affect Models 
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Referring to different models for increased areas for different powers, 
Sakura <jeffj@io.com> wrote: 
 
>You can see the problem there...for each of those things, the ability to 
>expand the radius is going to be useful in different proportions to the 
>base cost.  Therefore, it makes sense to me at least that they all cost 
>different amounts. 
 
 
Since Sakura justifies the rules this way, I think it's even hokier that 
they all work differently. 
 
Isn't this exactly what an Advantage does?  Doesn't the cost of adding the 
advantage depend on the cost of the base power?  Since this works well for 
every other power, why doesn't it work for Change Environment, DArkness, and 
Images? 
 
I'm absolutely certain now that these three powers need to be brought into 
line with the rest. 
 
 
 
 
grant 
 
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret 
Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 22:56:43 -0800 
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On Saturday, March 28, 1998 10:33 AM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
 
<snip> 
> 
>> 1. The change would not hamstring the "flagship" line; would you 
stop 
>>    buying Champions products simply because Public ID and Secret ID 
aren't 
>>    being listed as seperate disadvantages?  Keep in mind that they 
would 
>>    _still_ be in the game, albeit in a slightly modified (and much 
more 
>>    flexible) form. 
> 
> Because we are looking at a lot of legacy information, keeping 
>them separate makes sense. 
 
The legacy characters wouldn't have to be changed one iota. You leave 
them the same. Same costs, same effect. 
 
>And keeping them where they are doesn't hurt 
>anything. 
 
 
Save that I have had people refuse to play in games using the Hero 
System that weren't superhero games, and use Secret and Public ID as 
examples to prove their point that it was a "super hero only" game. 
 
>> 2. Thus far, it is the rest of the products that have been getting 
>>    "hamstrung".  Hero System has the potential to be a whole lot 
more than 
>>    Champions, but as long as the game seems to emphasize 
superheroes to 
>>    the exclusion of everything else, that potential is never going 
to be 
>>    fully realized. 
> 
> It may emphasize SuperHero gaming, but definately not to the 
>exclusion of everything else.  It makes sense to keep it strong for 
what 
>it's most popular in. 
 
 
It gets not one bit weaker that I can see if we changeit. 
 
>> 3. The proposed change will do a lot for Hero System; Social 
Limitations 
>>    are much more flexible than Public and Secret ID, considering 
that they 
>>    can handle Public and Secret ID as written, as well as different 
types 
>>    of Public or Secret IDs, secrets, duties, jobs, cultural biases, 
... 
> 
> Quite true.  I'd love to see a Social Limitation that could 
>include such things as Secrets.  However, keep the two ID lims 
outside for 
>compatability with earlier products. 
 
15 Secret ID 
15 SL:Secret ID 
 
I'm sorry, but I don't see some GM saying, "I don't understand this 
character. What is Secret ID, anyway?" because of this change, nor do 
I see old players saying, "You can't be serious. Now I have to put an 
SL in front of my Secret ID? That does it, I'm playing GURPS." 
 
You could leave all old characters the same, and both new and old 
players and GMs should understand this perfectly. 
 
>We also have to consider that people 
>sometimes have problems coming up with Limitations -- keeping these 
two 
>outside remind of the common elements of many Superhero games. 
 
 
List them under Examples. That reminds people just fine, especially as 
I am hoping that 5th Ed. has better examples, anyway. 
 
>> 4. The proposed change will not make anything harder to do; if you 
want to 
>>    have a typical Secret ID, write "Soc.Lim: Secret ID (-15 pts)" 
on your 
>>    character sheet - unless you consider "providing more options to 
choose 
>>    from" equivelent to "making something harder to do"... In which 
case, I 
>>    recommend that you dig up a copy of Champions 1st Edition; there 
are a 
>>    lot fewer options, so everything should be much easier. 
> 
> Again, you're putting words into my mouth.  I didn't say give less 
>options, I said don't take away the seperated ID lims.  I'm all for a 
>Social Limitation category. 
 
 
I don't object to your way of doing it, really, but don't see the 
advantages of it. I do, however, see advantages to putting them inside 
of it. 
 
For example, the description of Public ID clearly absolutely prohibits 
a Secret ID. However, Social Limitation can easily adapt to a 
character who is a superhero in secret and a superstar in public. 
 
Filksinger 
 
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret 
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 02:01:12 -0800 
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On Saturday, March 28, 1998 2:04 PM, Sakura wrote: 
 
 
>On Sat, 28 Mar 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
<snip> 
>> Member of lower social class. 
> 
>Is it obvious? DF. If it's not obvious, how does it limit the 
character? 
 
 
Definitely not DF. DF should be reserved for those things which are 
sufficiently unusual to qualify as useful for watching for, looking 
for, or keeping tabs on a person. "Tell me if a black man enters the 
store" doesn't cut it in the US, even if it is a US where blacks are 
clearly and distinctly of a lower social class. 
 
>> Slave. 
> 
>DF, Extreme Reaction (assuming it's obvious you're a slave). Also 
Watched 
>by Master. If you escaped, that'd of course become a Hunted. 
 
 
Don't forget that you are subject to orders and can be forced to obey 
by calling in authorities, if necessary. 
 
>> Declared Bankruptcy. 
> 
>Reputation, 8-, SFX are that it shows up when a credit check is done. 
 
 
Maybe... 
 
Frankly, I think it is too much of a cludge. 
 
>> Debt of honor. 
> 
>PsychLim.  If you don't believe in the code of honor, you're not 
going to 
>honor the debt.  Note that a person forced into acting a certain way 
>because of societal pressures could still take it as a PsychLim - 
just a 
>Moderate one. 
 
 
Possibly. 
 
>> And secret is unneccesary. 
> 
>/WHY/ is 'secret' unnecessary?  It shows up in superhero comics, it 
shows 
>up in fantasy novels, it shows up in just about every genre I can 
think 
>of.  It encompassess both social and psychological limitations in 
such a 
>way that it's really separate from either one. 
 
 
It is unnecessary if and only if there are social limitations. 
 
>There's plenty of precedent for keeping it separate, too, because 
there's 
>a lot of 'Social Limitations' built into the rules already.  Rivalry 
>and Watched are both arguably Social Limitations, for example, as is 
>Distinctive Features. 
 
 
Rivalry, possibly. 
 
Watched? Any argument you can make for "Watched by Viper" as being a 
Social Limitation I can make for "Hunted by Viper". Hunted clearly is 
a separate disadvantage, and Watched belongs with Hunted. 
 
Distinctive Features is _not_ a Social Limitation. If a woman is "a 
stunningly beautiful black woman with red hair and green eyes" (one of 
my wife's characters), she is extra distinctive and more easily 
spotted. It isn't a "Social Limitation", as society isn't causing the 
problem, her appearance is, by being "distinctive". 
 
Arguments that it belongs in Social Limitation stretch the intended 
boundaries of Social Limitation too far, IMO. 
 
Filksinger 
 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 06:40:14 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Regional Supplements 
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At 06:35 PM 3/28/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
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>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
>Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
>Subject: Re: San Angelo Page/Regional Supplements 
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> 
>> > I'd say the sytem's being wierd, cause I'm sending to the proper 
>> >address, according to my sent-mail folder. 
>> 
>>    Parts of the (massive) header set that I didn't quote back tend to 
>> support that; I suspect it's somewhere in your server system, since it's 
>> only happening to you. 
> 
> Header?  I've not seen anything on anything of mine I've gotten 
>back from the list. 
 
   The above is what it looks like in my mailbox.  (It's only happening on 
yours right now, though last week it was someone else; maybe next week the 
system will choose yet someone else as its Special Friend.) 
 
>> > True, though maybe the companies could work with one of the 
>> >existing fanzines to bring them to a broader audience. 
>> 
>>    Nah, I'd wait until it could be well-produced from Day One.  I had in 
>> mind something like the "our community" magazines that are put out in many 
>> real-world cities. 
> 
> Ahh.  I see.  That is an interesting idea.  I was thinking more 
>of a Hero-System magazene.  It could be jumpstarted simply by either Hero 
>or GRG distributing a fanzene with nicer production values. 
 
   A return of Adventurers' Club would be a definite plus, and would 
probably kill the "Hero Games is dead" line of thought. 
 
>> > Both? 
>> 
>>    Well, I'll probably only want to do one or the other.  If I do Rose City 
>> Champions instead of Northwest Champions, then Seattle-Tacoma and Boise 
>> would have to be left to someone else. 
> 
> Hmmm.  If it's Hero Plus both might still be possible.  Or maybe 
>seperate products.  Seattle especially seems it might deserve its own 
>suppliment. 
 
   I'm not sure what you're meaning by "both" vs "separate products."  My 
work will be either "Northwest Champions" (the three states) or "Rose City 
Champions" (Portland plus other parts of Oregon).  I only anticipate doing 
one or the other, but even if I did both they'd be separate products. 
 
>> > Seriously, how about a larger book -- especially if we're talking 
>> >Hero Plus.  I've been tossing about an idea on a Chicago book for Hero 
>> >Plus.  Something like Windy City Hero or Champions of Chicago. 
>> 
>>    That's something I'd buy. 
>>    For a title, I'd suggest Champions of the Windy City. 
> 
> I wanted to keep it open for other Hero system genres, however. 
 
   The existing "Regional Champions" supplements (Kingdom of Champions, 
Champions of the North) are that open, and I suspect that Scott Heine's 
Champions By the Bay will do so as well (assuming he does finish it; it's 
been at least since HSA1 that he's been working on it, so hopefully it 
hasn't been abandoned). 
   The way I have NWC currently organized (though very little actual text 
has been written so far) is in three sections: first, a description of the 
region in real life, with the needed geographical, demographic, and 
cultural descriptions to set any modern-day game there, with no fictional 
material (and I will probably add historical data for Western Hero, Golden 
Age Champions, and other settings); second, additions and alterations for 
the Champions Universe, ideally suited for Champions, Dark Champions, or 
Super Agents games; and third, heroes and villains for said games, complete 
with scenarios. 
   To my mind at least, CWC should just do the same thing, but for Chicago 
and its environs, probably covering all of Illinois and the nearer parts of 
Indiana, Michigan, and Wisconsin (leaving full coverage of those states for 
other books), along with any special features of Lake Michigan. 
--- 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 06:50:14 -0800 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret 
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At 03:56 PM 3/28/1998 -0600, Sakura wrote: 
>Well, considering that this is a Superhero genre-issue, it'd make a lot 
>more sense for it to be in the Superhero genre book rather thanin the 
>basic Hero system rules.  Very few FH characters take Secret ID, after 
>all... 
 
   Considering the Scarlet Pimpernel and the Dread Pirate Roberts, it was 
good that you qualified that last statement.  :-] 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 07:02:04 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th EDITION: Images, Darkness & Invisibilty 
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At 06:38 PM 3/28/1998 -0500, Grant Enfield wrote: 
>A complaint I have and hear from other players is that Invisibility is all 
>or nothing (kind of like with Mental Powers).  You can have a "fringe," but 
>that's only visible from an adjacent hex?  Many examples of Invisible have a 
>similar "fringe" that's visible from further away but not likely to be 
>noticed.  This sounds like a modified PER roll to me. 
 
   I wonder if maybe the PER Roll should be noticeable from any distance at 
the default level, then +10 to make it noticeable only from an adjacent 
hex, +10 more for No Fringe. 
   But if this change is made, should the default value in this case be 10 
points (so existing characters can maintain cost compatibility without 
losing efficiency), or 20? 
 
>What if I want to make FOG instead of inky blackness?  What if I want to 
>make things dark, but not pitch black?  For these effects Darkness does not 
>work well either. 
> 
>I've tried building these effects with Images, but it comes out really 
>expensive (i.e. it's much cheaper to be completely invisible by using 
>Invisibility than it is to create Images that you're not there and try to 
>walk away) unless you fudge how Images works. 
> 
>What if we had some universal way of modifying PER values? 
 
   This is something that I've suggested for Images, and in fact I use the 
mechanic in TUSV to make things like spotlights, PA systems, and 
camouflage.  The PER Roll Modifier, currently used only to determine how 
difficult it is to tell that an Image is fake, is instead used to directly 
modify all PER Rolls of a single Sense or Sense Group in the affected area, 
or to make the Images easier to perceive in the first place. 
 
>We could use this principle (not necessarily the same power) to engulf 
>opponents in fog, turn ourselves into fog, or (by reversing the effect) make 
>things less foggy. 
 
   I think the above modification to Images could be applied in this way. 
 
>Is everything clear? 
 
   Well, hopefully we've made our PER Rolls on this....  ;-] 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 07:03:36 -0800 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: New Power - Density Decrease 
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At 10:21 PM 3/28/1998 -0500, David Majors wrote: 
> 
>How about a power based on density increase, but negatively affecting 
>weight.  This would allow players to become less dense to make up for size 
>or be airhead boy or helium man if they want to. :) 
> 
>I wouldn't think it as powerful as density increase, but 3 pts per level 
>would be good.  I would also think you would make it reverse 1 level of 
>density increase on all accounts. 
> 
>What do you think? 
 
   A lot of folks (myself included) have been wanting something along these 
lines added to the Hero System.  Nobody's come up with a widely accepted 
mechanic yet, though. 
   If it's not in Hero5, maybe it'll be in The Ultimate Shape 
Changer/Shifter? 
--- 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 07:06:18 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th EDITION: Two Area Affect Models 
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At 02:28 PM 3/28/1998 -0600, Dataweaver wrote: 
>>    Combine these two ideas:  Use Images which give a PER penalty to 
>> perceive a single target, as a sort of "Chameleon" or "Obscurement" 
ability. 
> 
>Hmm... that makes more sense to me, actually; use Images (single target)  
>to handle Cloak (i.e., the power makes it more difficult for others to 
>see/notice/recognize the subject), and use Images (area effect) to handle 
>Light and Shadow.  So you could make everyone in a given area easier to 
>hear by using Images (Hearing Sense Group)... 
 
   Precisely. 
   This specific application could be used to represent the sound system at 
a large theater, where a play or concert is being presented. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 07:07:20 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Hero System Survey 
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At 07:37 PM 3/28/1998 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
>  The number of responses to the Hero System survey is a lot lower than I had 
>hoped so far. Let me remind folks that you have only a few *days* to get 
yourt 
>comments on 5th Edition in. 
> 
>  There are questions about more than just the mechanics n the survey. We 
>really want to see your response to the Hero questionnaire, so if you haven't 
>already done so, get on over the the Hero Games web site and fill it out. 
>Please. I would greatly appreciate it. 
 
   I did mine!  :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 07:13:36 -0800 
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Mass Combat System for HERO (long) 
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At 10:16 AM 3/28/1998 -0500, BILL SVITAVSKY wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade has been working on a mass combat system for his  
>Ultimate Super-Vehicle book which does a nice job of  
>incorporating elements of both these systems. He posted a draft  
>of it to the list some time back; I still have the file somewhere,  
>but if he's reading this we can see if he wants to repost it (or  
>not to do so in anticipation of having paying customers for it some  
>day.) 
 
   Actually, I seriously doubt that keeping this particular portion "under 
wraps" would in any way hamper sales of TUSV; I don't think anyone would 
spend $15-20 on the book solely for that section of the rules.  If 
anything, a "preview" of this sort can help demonstrate my mode of thinking 
where taking stuff from earlier Hero works is concerned. 
   Besides, it may be cut from TUSV.  If this happens, and it doesn't show 
up in Hero5 in some form (and it arguably would be applicable), then I'll 
probably post it to my website. 
   So here it is, as I posted it previously (there will probably be some 
changes in the final form): 
 
                           Optional Mass Combat Rules 
 
   Not all battles between vehicles are one-on-one, or in small groups. 
Indeed, large numbers of vehicles engaging each other are an increasing 
occurrence in fiction, and has of course take place frequently in history, 
especially since the advent of air warfare. 
   In general, the GM should let the outcome of large battles be directed 
by his plots.  For example, if the GM wants the characters to be trapped on 
an invaded colony world, he should simply say that a huge fleet of alien 
ships has landed and taken over.  Similarly, if he wants the Narf Republic 
to be defeated by the Troz Empire, then the Narfians should just lose 
(thereby requiring the PCs to sneak about, join the resistance movement, 
and so forth). 
   Even in insignificant battles, the GM can focus on the tactical role of 
the PCs and their individual vehicles, rather than on the battle itself. 
Thus, the PCs can command a small wing of fighters behind enemy lines, or 
they can lead a charge that turns the tide, or they can hold a breach in 
the station's defense field, preventing an enemy breakthrough.  So long as 
the characters are only interested in a small part of the battle, the GM 
can resolve the rest of it however he chooses. 
   But what should the GM do if the PCs are concerned with the outcome of 
the entire battle?  In this case, the GM can use the following mass combat 
system.  The system is intended to be quick and simple, and emphasizes the 
role of the PCs and other heroic (or villainous) figures. 
 
   The Basis of Mass Vehicle Combat 
 
   Hero System mass vehicle combat is based on the Characteristics and 
abilities of the individual vehicles in the various units, and their 
operators.  Combat can also be strongly affected by the actions and 
abilities of the extraordinary characters that lead or fight in those 
units.  (The effect of extraordinary characters, vehicles, or even 
creatures is described below.) 
   In combat, units move and act using most of the same rules that 
individual characters and vehicles use in normal combat.  They use the 
Speed Chart and act on Phases, they move based on their movement value, 
they use Combat Maneuvers, and they make attack rolls based on their CVs. 
   If an attack is successful, the enemy unit may have to make a Morale 
Roll.  When a unit fails a Morale Roll, its readiness for combat is 
reduced.  If the unit's readiness is reduced enough, the unit routs and is 
effectively destroyed.  Combat continues until one side or the other 
retreats, routs, or surrenders. 
 
Before Mass Combat 
 
   To set up a mass combat, the GM defines when and where the battle takes 
place.  Then he decides on the type and size of various units on each side, 
selects the scale and terrain of the battle, and defines any special 
conditions of the engagement.  All of these are described in detail below. 
 
Strategic Maneuvering 
 
   Before the battle, there will likely be a period of maneuvering.  The GM 
can use this to determine the location of the battle, and any interesting 
terrain features.  For example, if a group of alien invaders is trying to 
force its way past a perimeter of tanks, then the tanks will likely be on 
the defensive.  If the tanks are holding a mountain pass, then the GM can 
set up the battlefield accordingly. 
   Of course, many battles, at least in science-fiction settings, will be 
in outer space, where there generally are no features (at least, not 
natural ones).  In cases where the battle is on a planet or other surface, 
however, the area should be as tactically interesting as possible.  The GM 
should endeavor to include river crossings, copses of trees, hills, blind 
spots, buildings, etc.  (See the section on Movement for more details on 
setting up a battlefield.) 
 
Unit Size 
 
   To set up a Mass Combat, the GM should divide the forces on each side 
into 3 to 30 units.  Each unit should have a roughly similar number of 
"troops" (individuals, whether fighting vehicles, literal troops, or 
whatever).  If one side heavily outnumbers the other, the units of the 
larger side may have two to three times the troops of the units of the 
smaller side.  However, when the GM divides up the units, he should try to 
make sure that the largest unit has no more than four times the number of 
troops of the smaller unit. 
 
Game Scale 
 
   In general, the ground and time scales for mass combat are flexible and 
not overly important to the final outcome.  No matter what the scale, units 
will move and attack once per Phase, just like regular characters and 
vehicles.  The more troops in an average unit, the larger the ground scale 
and time scale should be that is used to easily handle the units' 
capabilities.  While two individuals can fight in seconds, it usually takes 
longer for two armies to engage in battle. 
   To determine an appropriate scale for a mass combat, the GM should 
estimate the average number of troops per unit.  If there are 1-3 troops 
per unit, the battle should use normal Hero System combat  there is no 
real reason to use the mass combat rules.  If there are 4 or more troops 
per unit, refer to the Mass Combat Scale Chart to find an appropriate time 
and distance scale.  When in doubt, the GM should choose the larger scale. 
   Note that the expansions on this scale are in addition to considerations 
of vehicle size (see Scale of Battle, above).  Thus, if a unit consists of 
a dozen SF-1 Space Fighters (from Chapter Six), which measure 10 meters in 
length, then time and distance would operate at a scale of 16. 
   Units making ranged attacks use the normal Range Modifier Chart and 
count each hex as an inch.  However, as with scale alternations for vehicle 
size, it's important to take into account the greater size of large hexes. 
All units making ranged attacks take an additional Scale Modifier to their 
OCVs.  Also, each weapon should have its Maximum Range divided by the Time 
& Distance multiple to find its maximum range in the larger hex scale.  At 
large scales, ranged weapons become much less important because of large 
negative modifiers.  The exception here is where two opposing units are in 
adjacent hexes; in this case, all Range Modifiers are automatically 0. 
[Begin Sidebar] 
The Unit Names given here are just off-the-cuff ideas operating on the 
assumption that the unit is a space fighter unit.  Ground, army, air, or 
even different space units might use different names. 
[End Sidebar] 
                           Mass Combat Scale Chart 
Avg. Troops  Unit Name   Time/Distance  Turn      Hex   Scale Mod 
1-3          Individual  1             12 sec    2m    0 
4-15         Wing        4             48 sec    8m    -4 
16-63        Squadron    8             1.5 min   16m   -6 
64-249       Company     16            3 min     32m   -8 
250-999      Regiment    32            6 min     64m   -10 
1000-1999    Force       64            12 min    125m  -12 
4000-15,999  Division    125           24 min    250m  -14 
etc. 
 
Unit Descriptions 
 
   Each of the units should be written up on a Unit Summary Sheet (in the 
Appendices).  This summary includes all the information necessary to carry 
out the battle using the mass combat system.  (It might be a good idea to 
use index cards to keep track of these values, one for each unit.) 
   To define the characteristics of a mass combat unit, the GM should write 
up and equip a single "trooper" in the unit  in this case, an individual 
vehicle and its operator.  The most important values to consider are DEX, 
SPD, OCV, DCV, Weapon Damage, Armor DEF, BODY, and Movement.  For 
simplicity, any levels should be divided between OCV and DCV before the 
battle, and then left where it is. 
   A unit is also defined by the number of troops in the unit, the unit's 
Morale Roll, the unit's current state of combat readiness, and any special 
equipment. 
   The number of troops in a unit functions as a modifier on the unit's 
ability to deliver and absorb damage.  Add the Unit Size Modifier from the 
chart below to the individual trooper's Weapon Damage and BODY score to get 
the characteristics for the unit as a whole. 
        Unit Size Chart 
# of Troops  Unit Size Mod 
1              0 
2             +2 
3             +3 
4             +4 
6             +5 
8             +6 
12            +7 
16            +8 
24            +9 
32           +10 
48           +11 
64           +12 
96           +13 
125          +14 
187          +15 
250          +16 
375          +17 
500          +18 
750          +19 
1000         +20 
etc.         etc. 
 
Morale Roll 
   The Morale Roll represents a unit's chance to stay organized and 
coherent after taking losses.  This morale is based on the inherent bravery 
of the troops (represented by EGO) and the amount of training they have 
received.  Completely untrained troops, like a beginning cell of a 
resistance movement (who would have no Weapon Familiarity Skills) have an 
8- Morale Roll.  Troops that have a Weapon Familiarity have a Morale Roll 
equal to its base EGO Roll (9+EGO/5).  Additional training can raise this 
Morale Roll even higher; the GM can define this as a 3 point Skill Level 
with Mass Combat, or he can simply assign a bonus to a unit's Morale Roll 
based on how long the unit has been training together. 
   Psychological Limitations can also have an effect on Morale.  If the 
troops in a unit have a Moderate Psychological Limitation that supports 
continued fighting, then the Morale Roll is at +2.  If the Psychological 
Limitation is Strong, then the Morale Roll is at +4.  If it's Total, then 
it's at +6.  These bonuses are cumulative (having two Total Psychological 
Limitations gives a +12 bonus).  The troops also take penalties of -2, -4, 
or -6 if they have Psychological Limitations that resist continued fighting. 
   Self-piloting vehicles (and other entities which have INT but no EGO) 
have a Morale Roll of 11-.  While certainly fearless, such automatons 
aren't very good at initiating action (this being the primary 
characteristic of having no EGO characteristic), and quickly become 
disorganized and scattered in battle.  However, if they have a Tactics 
Skill, then they may use that Skill to simulate Morale; this would 
represent an improved ability to adapt to a changing situation. 
 
   Movement 
 
   As with most combat, mass combat encounters are fought on a map.  Unless 
the encounter is taking place in outer space, the GM should draw the map 
and include terrain and natural barriers that armies, navies, and air 
forces can anchor their flanks on.  Battles are often decided by the 
terrain the opposing commanders choose as their battlefield. 
   To move, units act just like individuals, using most of the same basic 
maneuvers.  Units may half move and attack, execute noncombat movement, or 
execute most other maneuvers that individual vehicles may execute.  (If a 
player wants a unit to execute a special maneuver such as those  listed 
earlier in this chapter, then the GM should exercise his own judgement as 
to whether it's allowable.)  They move and act on their DEX and SPD, just 
like individual vehicles. 
   On the map, units have a facing, just like individual vehicles.  A unit 
attacked on the front gets its full DCV, and any defenses that operate on 
the vehicles' front; it can also counterattack using weapons mounted on the 
front which have a Limited Arc of Fire.  A unit attacked from the rear or 
flank gets half its DCV, and gets no use of front-oriented defenses or 
weapons. 
   GMs should use the Ignoring Enemies rule (above) to discourage units 
from moving through small gaps in a defensive line. 
   A unit may "form square" when it is in danger of being surrounded.  All 
attacks against a unit in "square" are against the front of the unit, but a 
unit in "square" may only move 1 hex per Phase. 
   With a Ranged Attack, modify the attacker's OCV by the normal Range 
Modifiers and the Scale Modifier based on the scale of the battlefield 
(unless the two units are adjacent to each other, in which case the Range 
Modifier is automatically 0).  Ranged attacks are applied like normal 
attacks (see below). 
   Only one unit can be in each hex; units may not "stack."  Leaders or 
other individuals may be in the same hex with a unit; they do not count as 
stacked.  Unless the characters in a hex are all alone, any attack aimed at 
the unit does not necessarily affect the separate leader or other 
individuals in the hex. 
 
Terrain 
 
   In ground-based encounters, terrain can affect movement and combat. 
Some terrain (like thick scrub or rough boulders) may cost double or triple 
to move through.  Some terrain (like thick forest or swamp) may affect 
different types of vehicles differently.  Some terrain (like rivers) may be 
impassible for most ground vehicles, while shallow, rocky waters may be a 
hazard to water vehicles.  Sometimes even aerial craft can be affected by 
terrain, if they're flying low enough.  The Terrain Effects Chart lists 
some possible terrain effects. 
    Terrain Effects Chart 
Terrain       Combat Effects  Movement Effects 
Clear                         
Rough                        1/2 for ground forces 
Trees         +2 DCV          1/2 for all forces 
Thick Forest  +4 DCV          1/3, no vehicles over SIZE 2 
Village       +2 DCV           
Town          +4 DCV           
City          +4 DCV          1/2, no vehicles over SIZE 10 
Hill                         1/2 for ground vehicles 
Swamp                        1/3, no ground vehicles 
Stream        +2 DCV          1/3, no ground vehicles 
River                        No ground vehicles 
 
   Combat 
 
   Mass combat occurs much like normal Hero System combat, except that 
defenders do not lose BODY when they are hit; they lose "readiness." 
Readiness indicates the ability of the unit to continue the battle. 
Similarly, a unit does not Recover (in the traditional sense) at the end of 
Segment 12; it attempts to "rally."  Any unit, even one made up of 
self-piloting vehicles (which would not normally be able to Recover), may 
rally. 
 
Fighting 
 
   A unit that is adjacent to another unit may attack it, using the same 
rules as those for individual characters and vehicles.  Similarly, units 
that have ranged attacks can use them against any target that they can see 
(or otherwise draw a bead on with a Targeting Sense that all individuals in 
the unit can use).  In addition to normal penalties, ranged attacks should 
also take a penalty for the Scale Modifier. 
   In general, a unit can choose any combat maneuver available to all its 
members.  Most vehicles use ranged attacks only, or occasionally Dodge, 
though giant robots in battle can also Strike, Block, and perform other 
combat maneuvers normally associated with regular characters, including 
Martial Arts maneuvers.  However, the larger the unit, the more difficult 
it is to coordinate intricate maneuvers.  For any unit above Wing size (16 
or more individuals), the GM should sharply restrict difficult maneuvers 
such as many Martial Arts maneuvers with special effects (like Shove or 
Disarm).  For units above Squadron size (64 or more individuals), maneuvers 
should generally be limited to Strike, Dodge, and ranged attacks. 
   Attacks are handled in a manner similar to Autofire.  The Unit Size 
Chart is used for the attacker's OCV (but not for the defender's DCV).  An 
exact hit means that one defender was struck.  For every +1 the Attack Roll 
is made by, the number of defenders who are hit doubles, up to the number 
of attackers or the number of defenders, whichever is less.  The GM should 
choose at random which targets are struck by whatever method he feels most 
comfortable with, and subtract the damage accordingly; the same Damage Roll 
is used for all attacks. 
 
Simplified Damage Results 
   For units whose troops are "Faceless Masses," the GM may use an abstract 
system of damage resolution.  In this simplified system, each target has 
only six different states: Awake, Hit, Stunned, Damaged, Unconscious, and 
Dead.  The GM doesn't need to keep track of BODY (nor STUN, for those units 
that have STUN), just each individual's Status. 
   To use this system, the GM should record from two to eight breakpoints 
for each troop type.  The basic breakpoints for an organic troop are its 
DEF, DEF+CON, DEF+STUN, and DEF+BODY; for a vehicle, they are DEF and 
DEF+BODY.  If the troop's Physical and Energy defenses are different, then 
separate breakpoints will be needed for each. 
   All troops start out Awake.  The chart below shows how different attacks 
will affect each target: 
        Simplified Damage Results Table 
STUN Exceeds  Target Starts Out  Target Becomes 
DEF           Awake                         Hit 
              Hit                           Damaged 
              Stunned, Damaged              Unconscious 
              Unconscious, Dead             same 
DEF+CON       Awake, Hit                    Stunned 
              Stunned, Damaged              Unconscious 
              Unconscious, Dead             same 
DEF+STUN      Awake, Hit, Stunned, Damaged  Unconscious 
              Unconscious, Dead             same 
 
BODY Exceeds  Target Starts Out             Target Becomes 
DEF           Awake, Hit, Stunned           Damaged 
              Damaged, Unconscious, Dead    same 
DEF+BODY      any                           Dead 
 
   Vehicles and other entities that do not have STUN do not worry about the 
upper part of the chart.  However, a vehicle that is Damaged will often 
pass on some of the damage to the operator; treat the vehicle's DEF like a 
Force Wall, just as normal. 
 
Checking for Morale 
   When an attacking unit succeeds in hitting its target, it rolls damage 
for its weapon.  The individual Troops take damage normally (as mentioned 
above), but the unit also takes damage after a fashion.  This damage is the 
same as the BODY damage done by the weapons, but modified by the Unit Size 
Modifier  bigger units do more damage.  The defender subtracts his DEF 
from this damage to determine the BODY taken. 
   If the total BODY taken by a unit (including that taken from previous 
attacks) is less than half the defender's modified BODY, then the attack 
has no effect.  If the total damage is at least half the defender's 
modified BODY, then the defender must make a Morale Roll.  If the damage 
exceeds the defender's modified BODY, there may be a penalty to the 
defender's Morale Roll; the defender must make his Morale Roll at -1 for 
every 2 points (rounded up) that the attack exceeds his BODY. 
   If the defender makes his modified Morale Roll, then the attack has no 
effect.  If the defender misses his Morale Roll, he loses a level of 
readiness.  In addition, he must immediately make a Morale Roll, with the 
same modifiers as the first Morale Roll.  A unit must continue making 
Morale Rolls until it succeeds or routs entirely. 
   The GM may require units to attempt a Morale Roll whenever they try to 
do something special or face a major danger in a battle.  This can include 
the first time a unit enters battle, when its leader is killed, or when an 
adjacent unit routs.  If a unit fails its Morale Roll, it may fail to do a 
complex action, refuse to attack the enemy, or even lose a state of readiness. 
   A Morale Roll can be modified by the particular situation of the unit in 
combat.  A character can lead or inspire a unit in combat (see below). 
   Other possible modifiers are listed on the Presence Attack Modifiers 
Table in the Hero System Rulesbook (page 170).  Each +1d6 adds +1 to the 
Morale Roll; each -1d6 is -1 to the Roll.  GMs should ignore the -1d6 for 
"in combat," but all other modifiers are appropriate.  For example, 
attackers who are taking their opponents by surprise receive a +1 to their 
Morale Roll; but attackers who are at a disadvantage receive -1.  GMs 
should apply additional modifiers as appropriate. 
 
Area Effect Attacks 
   Area Effect and Explosion attacks are made like other attacks except 
that they have modifiers for their area of effect.  This has different 
effects for the standard damage done, and for the damage done to Morale. 
   Standard damage attacks should be treated more or less like normal 
attacks, with the same modifiers as those mentioned above.  The radius of 
an attack should be divided by the Scale Modifier; generally, this will 
mean that an attack just fills a strategic hex.  When this is the case, 
every individual in the unit will be affected by any Area Effect or 
Explosion attack that hits the hex that the unit is in. 
   For purposes of Morale, each "volley" of such an attack is simulated by 
the firing of a single attack with the Unit Size Modifier added to the 
attack's BODY (just as a volley of regular ranged attacks is represented by 
a single attack).  All Area Effect and Explosion attacks will probably 
affect only one unit.  To represent the area effect of a weapon attacking 
many targets at the same time, multiply the BODY of any Area Effect attack 
by 2, and multiply the BODY done by any Explosion attack by 1, before 
adding the Unit Size Modifier.  Each additional + Advantage that increases 
the area of the attack increases the BODY multiple by + as well.  Thus, an 
attack with an Explosion that loses -1 DC per 3" (a + + + = +1 
Advantage) would multiply the BODY by 2. 
 
Readiness 
   The strength of a unit is based on its ability to stay organized and 
coherent.  Long before a majority of the individuals are destroyed, the 
unit's morale will break and its ability to wage combat will be destroyed. 
A unit can have one of four states of readiness, as shown on the Readiness 
Chart below. 
 
   Readiness Chart 
Readiness State  Effect 
Fully Ready      No Modifiers 
Disrupted        -2 to OCV, DCV, and Morale Roll 
Scattered        -4 to OCV, DCV, and Morale Roll 
Routed           Eliminated 
 
   As a unit's readiness changes, it will take casualties (see below). 
 
Rally 
 
   At the end of Segment 12, each Disrupted and Scattered unit has a chance 
to rally, and recover some of its readiness.  If the unit makes a Morale 
Roll, it recovers a step of readiness (from Scattered to Disrupted, or from 
Disrupted to Fully Ready). 
   A unit may also try to rally on any of its Phases; this works just like 
a normal character Recovering.  A unit must declare its intention to 
attempt to rally as its action.  It may do nothing else that Phase.  If the 
unit is hit by an attack before its next Phase, the rally attempt 
automatically fails.  If the unit is not hit by an attack before the next 
Phase, and makes a Morale Roll, it recovers a step of readiness.  A unit 
that attempts to Rally on Segment 12 also gets a post-Segment 12 rally 
attempt (and, if both Morale Rolls are successful, it may go from Scattered 
to Fully Ready). 
 
Regroup 
 
   With the GM's permission, two or more units who have suffered severe 
casualties (below) may regroup into a single unit.  The new unit's Unit 
Size Modifier is recalculated, and if the casualties are at the same state 
of readiness then the retain that level.  If the units are at different 
states of readiness, the compare the sizes of the two units; if one is at 
least twice as large as the other, then the readiness of the larger unit is 
used.  Otherwise attempt a Morale Roll for the less-ready unit; if it's 
successful, then use the greater readiness.  If that Morale Roll fails, use 
the less-ready unit's state of readiness, unless that one is Scattered and 
the other is Fully Ready, in which case the new unit is only Disrupted. 
   When two units Regroup into one, the new unit may also Rally if it needs 
to.  Thus, a Scattered unit may regroup with a Disrupted one, and if both 
Morale Rolls succeed, the new unit may be Fully Ready! 
 
   Characters 
 
   Individual characters, whether operating battle vehicles or leading from 
behind the lines, can affect mass combat in four ways: they can lead units 
in combat, they can inspire loyalty in friendly units in combat, they can 
inspire fear in enemy units, or they can attack the enemy directly.  (Of 
course, for all but the last, the character must have a means of 
communicating vehicle to vehicle.  This is not a problem in most campaigns, 
but it is an occasionally forgotten element.) 
   These rules tend to make the battle revolve around important individuals 
and the units under their direct command.  A small elite unit, stiffened by 
one or more PCs, can literally turn the tide of an important battle.  Of 
course, if the GM uses these rules, he should give the enemy certain NPC 
leaders who can themselves affect battles.  Often, the climax of the battle 
will occur when these units (or even their commanders, individually) meet 
in the middle of the battlefield. 
 
Leadership 
 
   A character should have the skill Tactics to lead a unit in battle. 
Each time a unit takes its action, the leader may attempt his Tactics Roll. 
 If the Roll succeeds, the unit may add +1 OCV, +1 DCV, or +1 Morale Roll 
for that Phase.  Additionally, for every 2 points the leader makes his 
Tactics Roll by (rounded up), the unit may add an additional +1 OCV, +1 
DCV, or +1 Morale Roll for that Phase.  These bonuses act like levels and 
must be distributed by the leader when he makes his Roll. 
 
Inspiration 
 
   A skilled orator can try to rally troops with a speech.  Just before a 
unit has to take a Morale Roll, the character may attempt to inspire the 
troops.  For every 2 points the character makes his Oratory Roll by, the 
unit may add +1 to its Morale Roll. 
   A character may also inspire a unit with a great deed.  Sometimes this 
is a single attack against an enemy that shows how vulnerable the enemy is. 
 Roll a single attack from the character against an individual enemy 
trooper. If the enemy trooper is impaired, the unit gets +1 to its Morale 
Roll.  If the enemy trooper is disabled, the unit gets +2 to its Morale 
Roll.  If the enemy is killed outright, the unit gets +3 to its Morale 
Roll.  The GM may also give similar bonuses for other amazing feats of 
combat prowess or the exhibition of unusual and powerful abilities (such as 
superpowers, psychic abilities, or magic). 
 
Fear 
 
   A powerful character can also inspire fear in an enemy unit (though this 
is harder than inspiring loyalty in friendly units).  To inspire fear, the 
attacker(s) should make a PRE attack with all the normal modifiers.  In 
addition, both the attacker's PRE and the defender's PRE are modified by 
the Unit Size Modifiers. 
 
Direct Combat 
 
   An individual character or vehicle can also participate in mass combat 
by attacking enemy units directly.  The character moves and attacks on his 
own Phases (but is still affected by the Scale Modifier).  The character 
simply makes whatever type of attack he likes against the enemy unit, with 
his OCV vs their DCV.  If the attack is a hit, roll the BODY damage of the 
character's attack, subtract the enemy's DEF, and compare the result to the 
enemy unit's modified BODY value.  If the attack is large enough, the enemy 
unit may have to make a Morale Roll. 
   Personal attacks by characters are most effective if the character or 
vehicle is much more powerful than the individual troops that he is 
fighting.  For example, a small wing of a dozen Mosquito Hawk helicopters 
has to be hit by an attack of 19 BODY (taking the copters' DEF into 
account) before the unit is forced to even attempt a Morale Roll. 
Nonetheless, some characters or creatures are so powerful that they are 
more effective attacking alone than leading or inspiring a unit. 
   By the same token, however, an individual character fighting against a 
unit takes straight BODY damage to his vehicle (and/or to himself).  The 
BODY damage is still calculated by an attacking unit as it normally would 
be for mass combat, but applied to the character as in normal tactical combat. 
 
   Casualties 
 
   A unit that is in a battle will take casualties.  Casualties should be 
calculated every time a new situation takes place.  The Casualty Occurrence 
Table below tells what percentage of a unit that can be considered casualties. 
 
Casualty Occurrence Table 
Occurrence                    Casualties 
Entering Combat               1% 
Forced to make a Morale Roll  5% 
Being Disrupted               10% 
Being Scattered               20% 
Being Routed                  100% 
 
   It's important to note that not all "casualties" (in this specific 
context) are dead; casualties include those killed in action, those that 
were wounded, those whose vehicles were disabled but who were not 
themselves hurt, those captured by the enemy, and those missing in action 
(this last category can include everything from deserters to would-be 
heroes who retreated on their own to regroup and return later to rescue 
captured comrades).  Since the existing rules cover things like death, 
injury, and serious damage, any casualties that aren't already covered by 
these categories can be considered MIA. 
   Any time that a unit's size is changed by death, injury, damage, and 
desertion, its Unit Size Modifier (and other elements based on its size) 
should be recalculated to reflect its new size. 
 
PC Casualties 
   If a PC loses a tactical combat in the midst of a mass battle, many 
things can happen.  The character can be killed outright, though this 
should only happen if the character is killed by an attack in the tactical 
combat or by similar normal methods.  The character can be captured by the 
enemy for ransom, recruiting, or slavery.  The character's vehicle can be 
disabled, with the character himself inside (either safe or injured); he 
can awaken later on a battlefield amidst the dead and dying, among the 
wreckage of his comrades' craft.  Or, the character can be rescued by 
others in his unit or on his side.   
   Which option takes place should generally depend on the dynamics of the 
situation.  Do not assume that a character's story is over, just because he 
has been defeated; for many characters, their story is just beginning. 
 
   Adding Rules 
 
   Because these rules are intended primarily as an adjunct to a 
role-playing game (and secondarily as a combat system for the Special 
Campaign Setting in Appendix E), they have been intentionally kept simple. 
GMs who want to add some of the other rules in this section to reflect the 
myriad aspects of mass warfare should feel free to do so.  (After all, the 
rules as presented here represent a serious alteration of the original Mass 
Combat rules.)  The more important a mass combat is to the current story, 
the more flavorful and interesting it should be. 
 
   Role-Playing Battles 
 
   Even in the height of battle, the GM should not ignore role-playing. 
The characters should still be in character  honorable "space knights" who 
would never plot an ambush, for instance, or freedom fighters out to kill 
every alien invader they come across.  Similarly, the NPC opponents should 
not be simply faceless generals; instead, they should have personalities 
and hopefully some recognizable tactics.  For example, a computer in charge 
of a Machine Empire might be willing to throw his fighting drones away by 
the millions, but be unwilling to lose even a single one of his Warstar 
battle cruisers.  Using such quirks can give the characters important 
opportunities to influence the battle in their favor. 
   Lastly, the GM should remember that this is a battle!  He should feel 
free to stop the overall action for a moment, in order to run an individual 
combat for a PC.  So General Yates wants his tank battalion to hold the 
line?  The GM should make him face three enemy tanks himself.  If he wins, 
his troops rally around him; if he loses, his position is overrun! 
Similarly, if an orator wants to stand outside his vehicle to address his 
troops (for dramatic effect), he'll be a logical target for enemy missiles. 
 Although the GM should never randomly kill off a PC (in these or any other 
circumstances), a battlefield is a dangerous place, and it's not unlikely 
that some characters will get hurt. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 08:00:08 -0800 
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: San Angelo Page 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 09:51 PM 3/28/1998 -0800, Filksinger wrote: 
>On Friday, March 27, 1998 11:37 PM, Mark wrote: 
>><< Though, unless someone at Hero or GRG is good at doing voices, all the 
>>questions will sound the same .... >> 
>> 
>>  I am having flashes of various Monty Python skits (of call-in shows) 
running 
>>through my head about now... 
> 
>You might try something like this. Have people send you questions in 
>.wav or, better yet, if you and they can manage it, MP3. Then they 
>sound different. 
> 
>Of course, you might find yourself with a collection of downright 
>weird questions, if your public doesn't cooperate enough. No telling 
>_what_ this group might send you.:) 
 
   Weird questions would be just par for the course on a radio talk show, 
wouldn't it? 
   Of course, we'd need to know what "angle" the show is taking.  Are we 
going on the assumption that Steve Peterson and Mark Arsenault are two guys 
who've just put out a game book about San Angelo, and they're on the radio 
*in* San Angelo to promote it? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 12:20:18 EST 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: San Angelo Page 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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<< Of course, you might find yourself with a collection of downright weird 
questions, if your public doesn't cooperate enough. No telling _what_ this 
group might send you.:) >> 
 
  Actually, what we need most for a talk show are questions in text format. 
That's right -- good old fashioned e-mail will do the trick. Once we settle on 
a talk show host and theme/subject, we'll let you know and you can send those 
subjects in. What we'll be doing is scripting it out first, then recording it. 
Of course, folks could *also* send their WAV files in, too. Sending the text 
will just help us in that we won't have to transcribe all the questions. 
 
  Do you folks have anything in particular you'd like to "hear" for the talk 
show? I realize you don't have the San Angelo manuscript yet, but here are 
some things that will be in the book. Maybe it'll help you to decide if I 
poist them. ;) 
 
Rev. John Warden 
  He is the pastor at the non-denominational Church on the Hill in La Vista, 
which is attended by many prominent San Angelinos, including developer 
Benjamin Morgan and Country Supervisor Jeffrey Daley. Senator Catherine Forbes 
(no relation) occasionally visits the church as well. He writes occasional 
columns of rhte SA Times' Religion section and could easily do a talk show on 
radio. ;) 
  Rev. Warden believes supers are unwittingly destroying people's faith in 
God. Super powers are a temptation from Satan that too few are able to resist, 
he believes. 
 
Dr. Jessica Carpenter 
  "Dr. Jess" is a psychologist and has an afternoon call-in show on KGTT 
("Talk Time" 1440 AM) 
 
Chuck Highsmith 
  Pilot of "Skywatch 1" a light plane used for traffic reports by KNDI (1560 
AM) 
 
"Dingo" Raines 
  An Australian "shock-jock" an KNDI (1560 AM) known for his off color 
commentary and outrageous behavior. His often vulgar morning drive-time show 
has been the target of numerous protests and letter writing campaigns by 
offended San Angelinos. He lives for publicity. In '95 he was arrested for 
making a nude skydiving jump from the top of the Twilight Tower. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 12:33:46 EST 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: San Angelo Page 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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<< Are we going on the assumption that Steve Peterson and Mark Arsenault are 
two guys who've just put out a game book about San Angelo, and they're on the 
radio 
*in* San Angelo to promote it? >> 
 
  Oh yeah. I'd almost forgotten we were talking specifically about the 
Arsenault-Peterson interview. :D  The above idea is a good one. I'll see if 
Steve is up for doing an "interview" and in this format. It would probably 
take several weeks from start to finish (given our busy schedules), but I 
think it would fun. Would make a neat promo item for GenCon, too. ;) 
 
  Basically we'd either collect the questions from folks (in text or WAV), 
then have the questions asked in the "call in show" format, records the whole 
thing, and then convert it to RealAudio for the web page. Brilliant! Nice 
angle, btw (re: the above suggestion). 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 11:51:06 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret 
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> >Well, considering that this is a Superhero genre-issue, it'd make a lot 
> >more sense for it to be in the Superhero genre book rather thanin the 
> >basic Hero system rules.  Very few FH characters take Secret ID, after 
> >all... 
> 
>    Considering the Scarlet Pimpernel and the Dread Pirate Roberts, it was 
> good that you qualified that last statement.  :-] 
 
	Zorro, The Green Knight, . . . 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Reply-To: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com> 
From: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com> 
To: "Rook" <rook@infinex.com&> "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Campaign Newspapers 
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 14:34:09 -0500 
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<<Could someone send me a list of all the sites that had campaign 
newspapers?>> 
 
I don't have a list either, but my York campaign site has an "Events" page, 
which contains exerpts from newspaper (including tabloids), magazine, radio 
and television spots. 
 
The url for the page is 
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/daniken/79/york.htm . 
 
 
Lisa Hartjes 
beren@unforgettable.com 
Home:  http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/daniken/79 
"Ummm...  Why is the big red light marked 'Danger' flashing?" 
 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Rog" <uraeus@mail3.bunt.com> 
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 98 19:35:37  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: RE: Ex-military Heroes 
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On Sat, 28 Mar 1998 01:24:58 +0100, Rog wrote: 
 
>From:  qts [SMTP:qts@nildram.co.uk] 
>Sent:  Friday, March 27, 1998 9:23 PM 
>>I am designing a hero group (working title: The Provisionals) made up of 
>>ex-US military members.  
> 
>Not a good name - it's a short form of the Provisional IRA. 
> 
>How does "The Partisans" sound? 
 
I'd suggest a name from American history: the Minutemen. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Reply-To: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com> 
From: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com> 
To: "Hero System Listserv" <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Team Tactics 
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 14:51:27 -0500 
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I recently joined a face to face Hero campaign, and my character (a 16 year 
old full psi with 3 days training and 1 mission under her belt) has become 
leader of a 10 person hero team.  The team is completely disorganised, and 
this probably lead to the vaporisation death of the previous leader (he got 
taken out by a Minuteman Mark VIII). 
 
Since my character wants to live, and will undoubtedly be going up against 
Genocide again, she wants to develop manoeuvres for the team.  I'd 
appreciate any suggestions that people can make.  I do not, however, require 
tactics or manoeuvres involving stealth and scouting as the team is 
effectively a strike force - go in, hit 'em hard, and leave. 
 
 
 
Lisa Hartjes 
beren@unforgettable.com 
Home:  http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/daniken/79 
"Ummm...  Why is the big red light marked 'Danger' flashing?" 
 
 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 11:54:12 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: San Angelo Page 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 12:33 PM 3/29/1998 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< Are we going on the assumption that Steve Peterson and Mark Arsenault are 
>two guys who've just put out a game book about San Angelo, and they're on the 
>radio 
>*in* San Angelo to promote it? >> 
> 
>  Oh yeah. I'd almost forgotten we were talking specifically about the 
>Arsenault-Peterson interview. :D  The above idea is a good one. I'll see if 
>Steve is up for doing an "interview" and in this format. It would probably 
>take several weeks from start to finish (given our busy schedules), but I 
>think it would fun. Would make a neat promo item for GenCon, too. ;) 
> 
>  Basically we'd either collect the questions from folks (in text or WAV), 
>then have the questions asked in the "call in show" format, records the whole 
>thing, and then convert it to RealAudio for the web page. Brilliant! Nice 
>angle, btw (re: the above suggestion). 
 
   If Steve agrees to do this, I can come up with a few things I could send 
in using WAV format -- especially if a proposal Dave Mattingly and I are 
working on gets accepted..  (Some of them are deliciously twisted....) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 14:00:19 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret 
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> > 	Not really.  This is for things like: 
> > Currently on Parole. 
> 
> Watched by Police/Parole Officers.  The NCI would cover the fact that 
> other people would treat you differently as well (assuming they knew about 
> the papers) 
 
	Possibly Watched, though your not really to the full extent.  A 
less defined thing than Hunted/Watched will fit these more nebulous 
systems better. 
 
> > Member of lower social class. 
> 
> Is it obvious? DF. If it's not obvious, how does it limit the character? 
 
	No, not obvious.  However, in _Social_ interactions it could come 
up.  And Social Lims always are things a character can freely ignore as 
long as he/she is willing to pay the consequences. 
 
> > Slave. 
> 
> DF, Extreme Reaction (assuming it's obvious you're a slave). Also Watched 
> by Master. If you escaped, that'd of course become a Hunted. 
 
	How DF if you don't look obvious.  Watched -- perhaps not.  The 
system itself may be enough of a deterrent from running.  Hunted if you've 
escaped, but that would come with a Social Lim. 
 
> > Declared Bankruptcy. 
> 
> Reputation, 8-, SFX are that it shows up when a credit check is done. 
 
	Not enough for an 8-.  This is a disadvantage that shows up only 
among societal interactions. 
 
	Note that Poverty could be moved to Social Limitations, with a 
note under wealth to see Social Lims. 
 
> > Debt of honor. 
> 
> PsychLim.  If you don't believe in the code of honor, you're not going to 
> honor the debt.  Note that a person forced into acting a certain way 
> because of societal pressures could still take it as a PsychLim - just a 
> Moderate one. 
 
	Why?  Then it isn't something psychological.  And if you don't 
honoer the debt, you will pay conseequences within society. 
 
> > And secret is unneccesary. 
> 
> /WHY/ is 'secret' unnecessary?  It shows up in superhero comics, it shows 
> up in fantasy novels, it shows up in just about every genre I can think 
> of.  It encompassess both social and psychological limitations in such a 
> way that it's really separate from either one. 
 
	Why is it different from a Social Limitation?  You're keeping a 
secret to avoid problems within society. 
 
> I'm skeptical that anyone would be unable to equate 'Secret ID' with 
> 'Secret: Secret ID' or even 'SocLim: Secret ID'.  If they had problems 
> with that, they'd have problems with plenty of other Champs stuff, like 
> buying the same power for a fireball or an ice blast. 
 
	More of a need for more explination than anything. 
 
> If maintaining 'legacy info' was so important, why doesn't the game still 
> have Cloak or Destruction powers? 
 
	Explained as a matter of game balance in the latter case, and it 
was part of non-core rules in the former. 
 
> Well, considering that this is a Superhero genre-issue, it'd make a lot 
> more sense for it to be in the Superhero genre book rather thanin the 
> basic Hero system rules.  Very few FH characters take Secret ID, after 
> all... 
 
	Possibly.  Though I can think of a few instances in other genres. 
MiB aliens.  Darth Vader.  The Lone Ranger. 
 
	As was suggested, place it into Social Limitation.  (With Secret, 
but not Social Lim, where would you place Public ID, BTW.)  However, in 
the disad list, list Secret and Public ID with a "see Social Limitation: 
IDs".  Also, do the same in the index. 
 
	And yes, more explination can be done, should be done, in the 
Superhero Genre book. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 14:14:57 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City? [looong tirade] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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> >	San Francisco Bay Area (Bay City sort of handles it, but for that 
> >specific setting). Atlanta Perhaps. New Orleans definately. Boston. 
> 
> Rook, what basis are you amd Tim using for determining whether a city is 
> "major" or not?  Why do Boston and New Orleans "definitely" get their own 
> books, but Atlanta "perhaps" may get one? 
 
	Well, I didn't say definately for Boston, though I did for New 
Orleans. 
 
	It's a matter of percieved glamour to people outside of the area. 
Outside of the general Indianapolis area, who wants an Indianapolis 
Campaign Setting?  Outside of Salt Lake City, who wants that? 
 
	Certain cities seem to have a draw beyond size, business, 
airports, etc -- though those categories are good for a short-term visit 
for Heroes based in another city.  Big-time cities, and reasons: 
	New York -- no explination needed. 
	LA -- Hollywood, East LA, Earthquakes, California Lifestyle, The 
Valley. 
	Chicago -- Lake Michigan; Two of top five tallest buildings; Great skyline to fly about in; The loop; The EL; 
O'Hare; Police Corruption; Mafia Ties; Joliet Prison; Lots of Colleges; 
Lake Shore Drive. 
	New Orleans -- Below Sea Level; Mardi Gras; Large 
French Population; Bayou Culture; Cajun Culture; Bayou; Organized Crime 
Connections; Mississippi River; Antibellum Mansions. 
	Washington DC -- Historic Monuments; Seat of Governement; Bereau 
Officies. 
	San Francisco -- ChinaTown; Trolleys; Hills; Fisherman's Wharf; 
Earthquakes; Goldengate Bridge; Bay Area. 
	(new one) Las Vegas -- Yes, small, but huge Organized Crime 
connections; Casinos; Prostitution. 
 
	I'd put cities like Atlanta, Boston, Detroit, Saint Louis, Dallas, 
Houston, Seattle, Denver, San Diego, Baltimore, Philidelphia, Miami, 
Minneapolis/Saint Paul, Pheonix, and Denver in a second group behind the 
first. 
 
	These, when put together or placed with regional information, 
would do fine. 
 
 
> New Orleans has a population of 484,149 (city proper; 1.3 million in the 
> metro area) 
> The city proper is 199 sq mi/515 sq km.  The greater New Orleans 
> metropolitan area covers 363 sq mi/940 sq km.  It "enjoys" more than twice 
> the national average in incidents of violent crime per capita per year, 
> making it admittedly a good choice for a Dark Champions campaign; also 
> higher than average unemployment.  It ranks 289th out of 300 U.S. cities 
> for rate of high school graduates.  But hey, it has over three times the 
> average number of 4- and 5-star resturants. 
 
	And a huge appeal for some reason.  It seems both seedy and 
glamorous, making it popular for a genre setting or place to visit. 
 
	[Long Atlanta tirade cut] 
 
	And that's all fine and dandy, but for some reason it doesn't have 
the draw and appeal of the "major" US cities. 
 
	I'd like to see reasonings for other cities to be on the "second" 
list, however.  Or reasons why those on the "second" list should be among 
the elite. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 14:18:51 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City? [looong tirade] 
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> 	Atlanta is simply not a 'cultural mecca', despite any other attractions 
> it may have. People outside of it's region barely know anything about 
> it. If it wasn't for the Olympics, I'd bet most American's would say 
> "Isn't that where the Amazon's came from? Isn't that supposed to have 
> sunk thousands of years ago?" :) 
 
	Right.  Good reasons for a book to get rid of the descrepancies, 
but it wouldn't sell itself like a Big Apple Champions would. 
 
> 	Boston is a cultural, educational, tourist, and historical mecca. 
 
	And I'm not convinced it's an "A-List" city. 
 
> 	New Orleans is a mecca of the same catagories as Boston, though for 
> different reasons. 
 
	Reasons that work better for a gaming campaign. 
 
> > Chicago, Washington D.C. or San Francisco in "Corporations", though of 
> > course that single product doesn't cover everything. 
> > 
> 	If you didn't see San Francisco, you're reading the wrong book. 
 
	Well, we're talking about the Hero Games product "Corporations", 
which is just a sampling of Corps in the Champs Universe. 
 
> 	I can understand that. It may be a major business city. But it's not 
> culturally significant in the world. You don't hear about it that often. 
> It lacks the 'sex appeal' that makes for a good spot for these things. 
 
	Right.  That's the exact point. 
 
> 	Yes. Which is why I think a book about how to make a real city into a 
> "Super City", or how to design a fictional "Super City" has much more 
> appeal than books on 'premade city settings'. 
 
	True, though I think the A-List would do well.  I'd love to have 
Champs writeups of cities for places for a Hero Team to visit on 
assignment. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 14:20:29 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Hero List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret 
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> I don't object to your way of doing it, really, but don't see the 
> advantages of it. I do, however, see advantages to putting them inside 
> of it. 
> 
> For example, the description of Public ID clearly absolutely prohibits 
> a Secret ID. However, Social Limitation can easily adapt to a 
> character who is a superhero in secret and a superstar in public. 
 
	True, but they could be redefined anyway.  I'd just want to see 
them seperately listed with a "See Social Lim" just so people aren't, for 
some reason, thinking that Secret and Public ID have been done away with. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 14:24:05 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Regional Supplements 
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>    I'm not sure what you're meaning by "both" vs "separate products."  My 
> work will be either "Northwest Champions" (the three states) or "Rose City 
> Champions" (Portland plus other parts of Oregon).  I only anticipate doing 
> one or the other, but even if I did both they'd be separate products. 
 
	I mean go into depth on Portland and (hopefully) Seattle-Tacoma, 
but include info on the whole NW.  It'd be a longer product, but that's 
fine by me.  Otherwise, just go with the specific. 
 
> Super Agents games; and third, heroes and villains for said games, complete 
> with scenarios. 
 
	What would it be without that? 
 
>    To my mind at least, CWC should just do the same thing, but for Chicago 
> and its environs, probably covering all of Illinois and the nearer parts of 
> Indiana, Michigan, and Wisconsin (leaving full coverage of those states for 
> other books), along with any special features of Lake Michigan. 
 
	There really isn't much to do with Michigan, though NW Indiana is 
basically Chicago Suburb.  Extreme SE Wisconsin is fine, but I don't think 
it'd do either city justice to include Milwaukee in the Chicago 
Suppliment. 
 
	And Chicago and Illinois don't like each other much.  I'd include 
Central and Southern IL in a Saint Louis book before a Chicago book. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 13:19:32 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 08:22 PM 3/29/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
>Cc: Hero List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
>Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret 
>> I don't object to your way of doing it, really, but don't see the 
>> advantages of it. I do, however, see advantages to putting them inside 
>> of it. 
>> 
>> For example, the description of Public ID clearly absolutely prohibits 
>> a Secret ID. However, Social Limitation can easily adapt to a 
>> character who is a superhero in secret and a superstar in public. 
> 
> True, but they could be redefined anyway.  I'd just want to see 
>them seperately listed with a "See Social Lim" just so people aren't, for 
>some reason, thinking that Secret and Public ID have been done away with. 
 
   I don't think there's much danger of that.  Especially not if Secret ID 
and Public ID are clearly listed examples under Social Limitation. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 13:27:16 -0800 
To: "Hero System Listserv" <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Team Tactics 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 02:51 PM 3/29/1998 -0500, Lisa Hartjes wrote: 
>I recently joined a face to face Hero campaign, and my character (a 16 year 
>old full psi with 3 days training and 1 mission under her belt) has become 
>leader of a 10 person hero team.  The team is completely disorganised, and 
>this probably lead to the vaporisation death of the previous leader (he got 
>taken out by a Minuteman Mark VIII). 
> 
>Since my character wants to live, and will undoubtedly be going up against 
>Genocide again, she wants to develop manoeuvres for the team.  I'd 
>appreciate any suggestions that people can make.  I do not, however, require 
>tactics or manoeuvres involving stealth and scouting as the team is 
>effectively a strike force - go in, hit 'em hard, and leave. 
 
   That kinda depends on the team in question.  I mean, I could (for 
instance) suggest that the Brick wind up for a haymaker against a Martial 
Artist foe, and the Mentalist hit the Martial Artist with Mental Paralysis 
while the haymaker is still winding up, but that wouldn't do much good if 
your mentalist doesn't have Mental Paralysis (though a similar trick can be 
done with Flash). 
   Some other classic cooperative maneuvers include a brick throwing 
targets to the Martial Artist, who does Throw-type maneuvers (and hopefully 
gets good velocity modifiers for damage); the Brick throwing a target up in 
the air, after which everyone with a ranged attack Coordinates on that 
target (the "skeet shoot"); and a Speedster grabbing a target and running 
him past the Brick, who holds his arm out to do a variation on a Move By 
with his own STR and the speedster's Velocity. 
   But those are just very basic ideas.  What's the basic makeup of the 
team? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: Drwoolf <Drwoolf@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 16:35:11 EST 
To: trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City? [looong tirade] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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I like the idea of an Ultimate Super City book.  It seems to be more universal 
than just coming up with dozens of campaign city books which mostly people 
from those cities would be interested in.  With a Ultimate book it could be 
geared for creating cities in multiple genres like fantasy or cyberpunk and 
give examples of what kinds of places could be found in each example: Fantasy 
City- Apothicary, blacksmith, stables, inn, etc  Cyberpunk-  Cyberware shops, 
gunstores, etc.  Then list examples of each place, NPC's of each and story 
ideas. 
 
I would love to see the City books incorporated into adventure supplements 
like Atlas Games did with "All Fall Down".  It gives some paticulars on Nevada 
and a lot on adventuring.  It would have been better if they had put more 
emphasis on Nevada (dang books only 30 pages but if they had doubled the size 
and used the other 30 pages to describe Nevada that would have been something 
worth shelling money out for).  It just sounds more realistic.  If people 
don't like the city they can then buy the book for the adventure and vice- 
verce.  Throw in numerous adventure seeds and plot hooks and viola- instant 
seller.  
 
Dave Wolf 
 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 14:05:48 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Ex-military Heroes 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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qts wrote: 
>  
> On Sat, 28 Mar 1998 01:24:58 +0100, Rog wrote: 
>  
> >>I am designing a hero group (working title: The Provisionals) made up of 
> >>ex-US military members. 
> > 
> >Not a good name - it's a short form of the Provisional IRA. 
> > 
> >How does "The Partisans" sound? 
>  
> I'd suggest a name from American history: the Minutemen. 
> qts 
 
There has been for some time a militia group with neo-nazi connections  
that goes by that name.  Depending on your continuity, this may be a  
problem for the group.  Minuteman ICBMs are still also in service. 
 
Other suggestions:  
	Para-X (paranormal ex-military), or Meta-X, if you prefer. 
	Semper Fidelis -- always faithful, the Marine Corps motto. 
		You may prefer the shortened form, "Semper Fi",  
		popularized by Ronald Reagan, who could not pronounce  
		the full motto. 
	The Silver Berets -- in homage to the Special Forces, and as 
		the distinguishing feature of their adopted uniform.	 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
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From: "Warren E Henderson III" <warren@newenglandpc.net> 
To: "hero-l@sysabend.org" <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 98 22:35:06  
Reply-To: "Warren E Henderson III" <warren@newenglandpc.net> 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City? [looong tirade] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Sat, 28 Mar 1998 21:04:48 -0800, Rook wrote: 
 
>(BTW, one of the qualifiers to being a native 
>of SF is you have to despise LA, which from what I hear is also a 
>requirement to be considered a native of LA as well. :) (hating LA that 
>is)). 
 
I thought being from Boston was a requirement to living in SF ;).  
Don't forget for Boston's attraction our wonderful driving habits, 
abyssimal roads, lack of road signs and truely friendly attitude 
towards visitors :).  Can you tell I am from a small town not the big 
city.  Oh Yah, the Airport rots too. 
 
Warren 
 
 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 15:06:13 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>From the header of a message sent by Vance Scott: 
 
> Subject: Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota  
> Date:    Mon, 30 Mar 1998 07:10:31 -500  
>          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
> From:    "Vance Scott" <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca> 
> Reply-To: vances@sympatico.ca 
>       To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Wow!  A message that originated tomorrow!  How did you buy that? 
 
;-) 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
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Reply-To: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com> 
From: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com> 
To: "Hero System Listserv" <hero-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Bob Greenwade" <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Team Tactics 
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 18:08:40 -0500 
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<<   That kinda depends on the team in question.  I mean, I could (for 
instance) suggest that the Brick wind up for a haymaker against a Martial 
Artist foe, and the Mentalist hit the Martial Artist with Mental Paralysis 
while the haymaker is still winding up, but that wouldn't do much good if 
your mentalist doesn't have Mental Paralysis (though a similar trick can be 
done with Flash). 
   Some other classic cooperative maneuvers include a brick throwing 
targets to the Martial Artist, who does Throw-type maneuvers (and hopefully 
gets good velocity modifiers for damage); the Brick throwing a target up in 
the air, after which everyone with a ranged attack Coordinates on that 
target (the "skeet shoot"); and a Speedster grabbing a target and running 
him past the Brick, who holds his arm out to do a variation on a Move By 
with his own STR and the speedster's Velocity. 
   But those are just very basic ideas.  What's the basic makeup of the 
team?>> 
 
Let's see.... 
 
Brass - an esoteric martial artist 
Brawn - a brick with some mystical potential 
Firewalker - energy projector (flames) with damage shield 
Gold - ion-based (very little known of her powers, but she's shown a killing 
attack, 
         and does not have complete control of her powers) 
Psiclone - telepathy, mind control, 50 STR TK, and a vertigo attack 
Shyft - teleporter with many tricks 
Solace - light-based, can create Armour Usable By Others, manifest a 
mystical 
             energy sword, and has some healing 
Structure - can take on the properties of any material he touches (but can't 
always 
                 control it) 
Techno - a 4' gadgeteer 
Walker - described in the files as "balls nasty", has esoteric martial arts 
(is Brass' 
              teacher) and excellent weapons skills. 
 
 
7 out of the 10 characters became superheroes when rescued by the hero 
organisation when Genocide made a big push to wipe out all mutants in NYC. 
Personally, I don't know very much about the characters other than Psiclone 
except for what has been seen in actual game play.  My character hasn't had 
a chance to talk to her teammates much since she got the leadership.  In 
fact, she's only been leader for about an hour game time.  :) 
 
 
Lisa Hartjes 
beren@unforgettable.com 
Home:  http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/daniken/79 
"Ummm...  Why is the big red light marked 'Danger' flashing?" 
 
 
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Reply-To: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com> 
From: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com> 
To: "Hero System Listserv" <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Team Tactics 
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 18:44:58 -0500 
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> I recently joined a face to face Hero campaign, and my character (a 16 
year 
> old full psi with 3 days training and 1 mission under her belt) has become 
> leader of a 10 person hero team.  The team is completely disorganised, and 
 
<<You mean, the other members have *less* leadership than a green 
sixteen-year-old!  (And one mission is still a greenhorn in my book.) 
Jeeze!>> 
 
Well, of the three people with more experience, one absolutely refuses to be 
leader, one gets too easily distracted (he's a gadgeteer), and the other 
just doesn't have the mindset for it.  It was the organization's leader that 
decided that Psiclone should be made temporary leader. 
 
 
> this probably lead to the vaporisation death of the previous leader (he 
got 
> taken out by a Minuteman Mark VIII). 
 
<<Your disorganized team is fighting people with strategic nuclear weapons? 
What is the power level of this campaign?  Do your opponents have Hunted 
by Entire World 14-?  Or, am I missing something?>. 
 
The team is disorganized as 7 out of the 10 members have as much experience 
as Psiclone does.  :)  The team is one of many teams which are a part of an 
international "police force" of superheroes.  The characters are about 400 
pts, so the game is run at a very high point level. 
 
 
Lisa Hartjes 
beren@unforgettable.com 
Home:  http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/daniken/79 
"Ummm...  Why is the big red light marked 'Danger' flashing?" 
 
 
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 18:47:15 EST 
To: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  Re: The Ultimate Super City? [looong tirade] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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In a message dated 3/29/98 2:39:15 PM, Drwoolf@aol.com wrote: 
 
<<I like the idea of an Ultimate Super City book.  It seems to be more 
universal 
than just coming up with dozens of campaign city books which mostly people 
from those cities would be interested in.  With a Ultimate book it could be 
geared for creating cities in multiple genres like fantasy or cyberpunk and 
give examples of what kinds of places could be found in each example: Fantasy 
City- Apothicary, blacksmith, stables, inn, etc  Cyberpunk-  Cyberware shops, 
gunstores, etc.  Then list examples of each place, NPC's of each and story 
ideas.>> 
 
I don't understand what you're asking for -- are you looking for a a book 
about creating campaign cities for superhero campaigns, a book about creating 
cities for any genre campaign, or a book of existing cities for a superhero 
campaign? 
 
Bay City is our take on what we though people want to see in a description of 
an area for superhero roleplaying, and generally people seem to really like 
what we did in there. Champions Worldwide will give similar (though shorter) 
descriptions for some interesting cities in other countries (such as London, 
Paris, Rome, Cairo, Hong Kong, etc.). Perhaps you could tell us what you liked 
(or didn't like) about Bay City; that would be very helpful. 
 
I don't know if a book about creating cities for different genres would have 
enough of an audience to make it a profitable undertaking; it seems like only 
a GM would be interested in it, which immediately cuts the market size by 80%. 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games  
 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 16:18:01 -0800 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Change Environment: What's it good for? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> >>>>> "RH" == Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> writes: 
>  
> RH>     But consider the case of The Captured Hero.  Dr X has our hero on the 
> RH> lab table and is subjecting him to all sorts of weird effects. 
> RH> Suddenly, bingo.  Our hero starts to squirm when exposed to low level 
> RH> microwaves.  Ah, a weakness. 
>  
> This is called "role-playing". 
 
	I don't deny it one little bit.  I only put it forward as a possible  
explanation as to why some people would have CE labled as a form of finding  
weaknesses.  Not the talent, but the technique. 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 17:39:36 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Hero System Listserv <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Team Tactics 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Lisa Hartjes wrote: 
>  
> I recently joined a face to face Hero campaign, and my character (a 16 year 
> old full psi with 3 days training and 1 mission under her belt) has become 
> leader of a 10 person hero team.  The team is completely disorganised, and 
 
You mean, the other members have *less* leadership than a green  
sixteen-year-old!  (And one mission is still a greenhorn in my book.)   
Jeeze! 
 
 
> this probably lead to the vaporisation death of the previous leader (he got 
> taken out by a Minuteman Mark VIII). 
 
Your disorganized team is fighting people with strategic nuclear weapons?  
What is the power level of this campaign?  Do your opponents have Hunted  
by Entire World 14-?  Or, am I missing something? 
 
>  
> Since my character wants to live, and will undoubtedly be going up against 
> Genocide again, she wants to develop manoeuvres for the team.  I'd 
> appreciate any suggestions that people can make.  I do not, however, require 
> tactics or manoeuvres involving stealth and scouting as the team is 
> effectively a strike force - go in, hit 'em hard, and leave. 
 
It would be helpful to have the team makeup, or examples of where you  
got into trouble, but here are some general thoughts. 
 
Make sure your team has a secure way to communicate.  If your full-Psi  
has enough Mind Link, then she should set up the "Tele-phone" to ensure  
that everyone is doing his/her/its job.  If not, have everyone on the  
team invest a few XP in a secure (encrypted) radio link, as recommended  
in Dark Champions: 
 
	4	Mind Link SFX Encrypted Radio Link in a headset. 
		Only with similarly equipped characters [10 active] 
		OIF(-1/2) Other party must have this Power(-1) 
		Affected as Radio Sense Group, not Mental (-0) 
 
Have your group devise a Battle Code that changes frequently  In fact,  
write it out, and give each player a copy.  If the GM is really a  
stickler, have everyone spend 1 XP on Language: Battle Code.  Since this  
is a limited code, only "Basic Conversation" should be required. 
 
Have your group practice coordinated attacks, fastball specials, and  
suchlike, and roleplay it so that the GM accepts these as no longer  
requiring a DEX or PER roll.  There should be codewords to ask teammates  
to concentrate on an opponent so as to gain the Multiple Attackers Bonus  
or to combine STUN in a Coordinated Attack, or both. 
 
If you have team members with missile deflection, Force Wall or other  
defensive powers, have them interpose themselves to defend team members  
from rear, flank or ranged attacks. 
 
If you have sufficient team members, try leaving some back as a tactical  
reserve. 
 
Try having tactical debriefings or after-action reports.  These can be  
done by email without losing the principal face-to-face flavor of the  
game, and the players will feel as if they are members of a team, where  
each contributes. 
 
 
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 21:17:43 -0500 (EST) 
From: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Flash - Sense Touch 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Okay, anyone have to deal with this issue?  I am thinking about making a 
character who has flash sense group touch. 
 
Should this be one sense or a whole sense group?  Or should it actually 
not be allowed at all? 
 
What is your take? 
 
David 
 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 21:24:19 -0500 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-29 
From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David W Toomey) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>> > Currently on Parole. 
>> > Member of lower social class. 
>> > Slave. 
>> > Declared Bankruptcy. 
>> > Debt of honor. 
 
 
Exactly how do these limit the player if they are unknown? 
 
I don't see how they would count for more than background, myself... 
 
 
>> Very few FH characters take Secret ID, after all... 
 
 
>	Possibly.  Though I can think of a few instances in other  
>genres. 
>MiB aliens.  Darth Vader.  The Lone Ranger. 
> 
 
 
DARTH VADER?????   "Let me take off my helmet, and nobody will 
recognize me..." 
 
I could see Public ID, perhaps, but Secret?? 
 
 
David W Toomey 
dwtoomey@juno.com 
 
_____________________________________________________________________ 
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. 
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com 
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] 
 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 20:56:48 -0600 (CST) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Sun, 29 Mar 1998, David Majors wrote: 
 
> Okay, anyone have to deal with this issue?  I am thinking about making a 
> character who has flash sense group touch. 
>  
> Should this be one sense or a whole sense group?  Or should it actually 
> not be allowed at all? 
 
I've heard of it being used (along with a few other nasty enhancements - I 
think Uncontrolled Continuous Sticky) - basically, it makes the character 
'numb' - they can't feel their body at all.  They can still move, theys 
till have visual balance cues, etc, but they have no tactile sense. 
 
Actually, 'touch' probably isnt a sense as it encompasses pressure, heat, 
and a host of other things - it's probably a sense group. 
 
J 
 
"One equal temper of heroic hearts,              http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will              jeffj@io.com 
 To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."    - Tennyson, "Ulysses" 
 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 21:00:02 -0600 (CST) 
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com> 
To: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Sun, 29 Mar 1998, David Majors wrote: 
 
>  
> Okay, anyone have to deal with this issue?  I am thinking about making a 
> character who has flash sense group touch. 
>  
> Should this be one sense or a whole sense group?  Or should it actually 
> not be allowed at all? 
>  
> What is your take? 
 
What's the SFX?   
 
(Possibilities: an anesthetic; a numb-ray, etc...) 
 
I'd allow it, but it would only affect one sense - touch.  (kind of a moot 
point, considering that the only other "senses" in the touch sense group 
are actually enhancements of Touch...) 
 
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver --------- 
  Webpage:  http://www.io.com/~traveler  /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists 
  GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life  ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing, 
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www  |  that all points of view have 
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet  |  something of value to offer. 
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com |  --David Brin, "Otherness" 
 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 19:00:57 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 04:35 PM 3/29/1998 EST, Drwoolf wrote: 
>I like the idea of an Ultimate Super City book.  It seems to be more 
universal 
>than just coming up with dozens of campaign city books which mostly people 
>from those cities would be interested in.  With a Ultimate book it could be 
>geared for creating cities in multiple genres like fantasy or cyberpunk and 
>give examples of what kinds of places could be found in each example: Fantasy 
>City- Apothicary, blacksmith, stables, inn, etc  Cyberpunk-  Cyberware shops, 
>gunstores, etc.  Then list examples of each place, NPC's of each and story 
>ideas. 
 
   A universal book on creating superhero cities (either from whole cloth 
or from existing cities) would be good, but having regional supplements 
would also be a good thing, especially if the quality was on par with 
Kingdom of Champions or Justice, Not Law.   The former would be for 
creating your own home campaign; the latter would be ideally suited for 
visiting characters, though they could also be written so campaigns taking 
place in the given cities wouldn't be hamstrung. 
 
>I would love to see the City books incorporated into adventure supplements 
>like Atlas Games did with "All Fall Down".  It gives some paticulars on 
Nevada 
>and a lot on adventuring.  It would have been better if they had put more 
>emphasis on Nevada (dang books only 30 pages but if they had doubled the size 
>and used the other 30 pages to describe Nevada that would have been something 
>worth shelling money out for).  It just sounds more realistic.  If people 
>don't like the city they can then buy the book for the adventure and vice- 
>verce.  Throw in numerous adventure seeds and plot hooks and viola- instant 
>seller.  
 
   That's something along the way that I'm planning on doing NWC. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 21:04:41 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret 
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> > True, but they could be redefined anyway.  I'd just want to see 
> >them seperately listed with a "See Social Lim" just so people aren't, for 
> >some reason, thinking that Secret and Public ID have been done away with. 
> 
>    I don't think there's much danger of that.  Especially not if Secret ID 
> and Public ID are clearly listed examples under Social Limitation. 
 
	Just put a separate listing with the reference to maintain legacy. 
It's a pretty simple procedure.  And with everything (hopefully) receiving 
a ton of new explination, it will be quite simple to include the Secret 
and Public ID lims. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 21:10:16 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions Listserv <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Reply to Hero Games: re: Supercities. 
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> I don't understand what you're asking for -- are you looking for a a book 
> about creating campaign cities for superhero campaigns, a book about creating 
> cities for any genre campaign, or a book of existing cities for a superhero 
> campaign? 
 
	Actually, a book about creating cities for any genre campaign 
would be nice, but I personally am advocating City and Regional 
suppliments, on the order of the White Wolf "X By Night" and "Rage Across 
X" series. 
 
> what we did in there. Champions Worldwide will give similar (though shorter) 
> descriptions for some interesting cities in other countries (such as London, 
> Paris, Rome, Cairo, Hong Kong, etc.). Perhaps you could tell us what you liked 
 
	One book for all of the above?  I'd hope that room would be left 
for individual suppliments in the Hero Plus line. 
 
> I don't know if a book about creating cities for different genres would have 
> enough of an audience to make it a profitable undertaking; it seems like only 
> a GM would be interested in it, which immediately cuts the market size by 80%. 
 
	I'm not sure about that.  As-is, GMs do a majority of the buying. 
Most Hero Gamers that I know that don't run anything don't buy anything. 
However, at least half run something and therefore are active purchasers. 
The city and regional books would be great for the Hero Plus line -- which 
has a smaller sales expectation anyway. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 22:49:19 -0500 (EST) 
From: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net> 
Reply-To: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net> 
To: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Sun, 29 Mar 1998, Dataweaver wrote: 
 
> On Sun, 29 Mar 1998, David Majors wrote: 
>  
> >  
> > Okay, anyone have to deal with this issue?  I am thinking about making a 
> > character who has flash sense group touch. 
> >  
> > Should this be one sense or a whole sense group?  Or should it actually 
> > not be allowed at all? 
> >  
> > What is your take? 
>  
> What's the SFX?   
>  
 
Actually burns.  The body becomes overcome with a constant pain making it 
impossible to feel anything but the pain of the burns. 
 
> (Possibilities: an anesthetic; a numb-ray, etc...) 
>  
 
Anesthetic sounds interesting, but not for this character though. :) 
 
> I'd allow it, but it would only affect one sense - touch.  (kind of a moot 
> point, considering that the only other "senses" in the touch sense group 
> are actually enhancements of Touch...) 
 
 
 
I kinda like the sense group option that was just mentioned by Sakura  
<jeffj@io.com&>  The concept that pressure and heat are two different 
affects of touch makes sense to me. 
 
Anyone have any other ideas for senses that should be included in this 
group? 
 
David 
 
 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 22:31:55 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: "hero-l@sysabend.org" <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City? [looong tirade] 
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> >(BTW, one of the qualifiers to being a native 
> >of SF is you have to despise LA, which from what I hear is also a 
> >requirement to be considered a native of LA as well. :) (hating LA that 
> >is)). 
> 
> I thought being from Boston was a requirement to living in SF ;). 
> Don't forget for Boston's attraction our wonderful driving habits, 
> abyssimal roads, lack of road signs and truely friendly attitude 
> towards visitors :).  Can you tell I am from a small town not the big 
> city.  Oh Yah, the Airport rots too. 
 
	Well, I actually thought of something going for Boston besides the 
Historic Tourism (which isn't enough, IMO, to make it a good Campaign 
Setting).  The city and surrounding area is _filled_ with colleges.  MIT, 
Harvard, BU, BC . . . lots of places to put a young Supers team.  Still, I 
think a New England hero would be best.  Boston and maybe Hartford are the 
only cities that would really need any sort of writeup. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:43:46 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>I kinda like the sense group option that was just mentioned by Sakura  
><jeffj@io.com>.  The concept that pressure and heat are two different 
>affects of touch makes sense to me. 
> 
>Anyone have any other ideas for senses that should be included in this 
>group? 
 
A suggestion: 
 
Touch Group: Pressure, Temperature, Balance, Pain, Limb Sense* 
 
*Close your eyes, and touch your left knee with your right hand. That's limb 
sense, and is _very_ important if you're blinded - probably moreso than 
pressure sense. 
 
Flash vs. Pressure Sense: Wouldn't feel being grabbed, wouldn't feel 
obstacles without looking (unless they caused pain), wouldn't feel wind/air 
motion. Probably an extra DCV penalty when blinded. I might even suggest 
cutting DEX in half, blinded or not. 
 
Flash vs. Temperature Sense: Can't feel heat or cold. Can't feel damage 
being done from burning or freezing - though can still feel pain from stuff 
like cuts and impacts. GM doesn't inform PC about damage from heat or cold. 
 
Flash vs. Balance Sense: Forget any balance-based DEX skill (Acrobatics, 
some Climbing) - consider them to be 8- for the duration. I'd suggest 
dropping DEX in half. 
 
Flash vs. Pain: Can't feel damage, period. Still takes STUN and BODY 
(systemic shock), but doesn't know an attack has happened unless it causes 
knockback, can't tell how much damage has been taken. GM now keeps track of 
STUN and BODY. :-) 
 
Flash vs. Limb Sense: 0 OCV in HTH when blinded, b/c you can't effectively 
attack when you don't know where your limbs are. -5 with any DEX-based 
skills or talents (Acrobatics, Climbing, Fast Draw, etc.) that require a 
sense of where your limbs are - only -3 if you can still look at what you're 
doing. I might even suggest cutting DEX in half, blinded or not. 
 
Flash vs. Touch Group: If you're blinded, you're in BIG trouble. You can't 
feel pain or damage. You can't feel where your limbs are. You can't feel 
heat or cold. You can't feel the vibrations under your feet. You can't feel 
that your foot is caught under a branch. You have no sense of balance. I'm 
tempted to suggest 0 DEX, unless you already have no sense of touch to begin 
with. You need your Touch sense to get around properly. 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 00:48:45 -0500 
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th EDITION: Two Area Affect Models 
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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> Isn't this exactly what an Advantage does?  Doesn't the cost of adding 
the 
> advantage depend on the cost of the base power?  Since this works well 
for 
> every other power, why doesn't it work for Change Environment, DArkness, 
and 
> Images? 
>  
> I'm absolutely certain now that these three powers need to be brought 
into 
> line with the rest. 
 
I came into this debate late, so I apologize if I'm misinterpreting this 
discussion, but are you suggesting that CE, and Darkness should use the 
same method of increasing their area as the Area Effect advantage (i.e. 
+1/4 advantage doubles the radius)? 
 
The problem here is that Images, Darkness and CE are the ONLY powers that 
START OFF as an area effect, so they require a different mechanic to 
increase that area that do single target powers that are bought with the AE 
advantage. Images already works on an advantage system (+1/4 advantage to 
double the area), but if you made CE and Darkness work that way, you could 
come up with obscenely large areas of effect! It's possible to do this with 
Images already, although the need to buy PER Roll modifiers, thereby 
increasing the base cost, mitigates this to a large extent. 
 
Imagine what you could do if Darkness were bought like this. At a Base cost 
of 10 CP to block Normal Sight, a 60 Act. Pt. Darkness field would cover an 
area over 2000 km in radius, if you reduced that to 500 km in radius, you 
could maintain it at zero END cost! If you wanted to block the full Sight 
Group, that area would drop to a mere half-kilometer radius, or 64" radius 
at 0 END. 
 
This, IMO, is WAY too cheap. 
 
Jeff Reid 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 00:48:48 -0500 
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Subject: 5th Edition: New Power - Density Decrease 
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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> How about a power based on density increase, but negatively affecting 
> weight.  This would allow players to become less dense to make up for 
size 
> or be airhead boy or helium man if they want to. :) 
>  
> I wouldn't think it as powerful as density increase, but 3 pts per level 
> would be good.  I would also think you would make it reverse 1 level of 
> density increase on all accounts. 
>  
> What do you think? 
 
How about the following as an alternative. 
 
My current GM has a house rule -- he has a LOT of house rules, actually, 
but THIS one I like -- that introduces a new Characteristic: MASS. At the 
default score of 10, the character weighs 100 kg, and every 5 points of 
MASS doubles the character's weight. Each point of MASS costs 1 CP. 
 
The nice thing about this system is that it allows powers like Suppress vs. 
MASS, which would do basically what you are suggesting, albeit the exact 
change would be random. The opposite effect could be achieved using an Aid 
vs. MASS, thereby increasing the weight, although I would prefer the 
simpler: MASS, Usable Against Others, At Range, cost's END (12.5 Active CP 
per weight doubling). This would increase the target's weight without 
giving them all the desirable benefits of Density Increase. 
 
Jeff Reid 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 00:48:50 -0500 
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Flash - Sense Touch 
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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> Okay, anyone have to deal with this issue?  I am thinking about making a 
> character who has flash sense group touch. 
>  
> Should this be one sense or a whole sense group?  Or should it actually 
> not be allowed at all? 
>  
> What is your take? 
 
I take it you've noticed that the "Touch" sense group does not exist, at 
least in as much as it is not listed under any of the sense-affecting 
powers (Invisibility, Darkness, Flash, Images). I imagine this was done 
intentionally in order to avoid certain problems. 
 
FI, what exactly do you imagine would be the effect of a character whose 
sense of touch has been "flashed?" Obviously he would not be able to feel 
anything, but does that mean he wouldn't take any STUN damage from attacks? 
If so, this sounds like something the character would rather use on his own 
teammates (or even himself) than on his opponents. 
 
If I allowed it at all, I would rule that the "flashed" character, while 
unable to feel an attack, would nonetheless suffer the STUN damage 
normally, even to the extent of being stunned or knocked unconscious. The 
only conceivable advantage is that the character might not actually realize 
he had been hit if he was for some reason unable to see the attack, i.e. it 
came from behind or was invisible. 
 
As far as whether it would be a single sense or a group, the character 
could probably get away with targeting it at the single sense level. After 
all, how many different forms of exotic touch senses are there? There 
aren't any standard ones, although I seem to recall a character who had 
Spatial Awareness defined as feeling variations in air pressure/movement. 
 
Jeff Reid 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 02:16:19 -0600 (CST) 
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To: hero-l@sysabend.org 
From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net> 
Subject: Re: Team Tactics 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>I recently joined a face to face Hero campaign, and my character (a 16 year 
>old full psi with 3 days training and 1 mission under her belt) has become 
>leader of a 10 person hero team.  The team is completely disorganised, and 
>this probably lead to the vaporisation death of the previous leader (he got 
>taken out by a Minuteman Mark VIII). 
 
>Since my character wants to live, and will undoubtedly be going up against 
>Genocide again, she wants to develop manoeuvres for the team.  I'd 
>appreciate any suggestions that people can make. 
 
        As the team Leader, I would get familiar with the various abilities 
that my teammates are capable of.  After that, I would begin parrying them 
up into small teams. 
        One of my tactics as a mentalist has been to EGO attack someone 
until they are CON stunned.  Then I will usually let a member who has 
Entangle do there work  while I continue to EGO attack the person into a coma. 
        High velocity move-bys are fun but can put your character into coma 
city. 
 
>If you have team members with missile deflection, Force Wall or other  
>defensive powers, have them interpose themselves to defend team members  
>from rear, flank or ranged attacks. 
 
>Try having tactical debriefings or after-action reports.  These can be  
>done by email without losing the principal face-to-face flavor of the  
>game, and the players will feel as if they are members of a team, where  
>each contributes. 
 
Let's see.... 
 
Brass - an esoteric martial artist 
Brawn - a brick with some mystical potential 
Firewalker - energy projector (flames) with damage shield 
Gold - ion-based (very little known of her powers, but she's shown a killing 
attack, and does not have complete control of her powers) 
Psiclone - telepathy, mind control, 50 STR TK, and a vertigo attack 
Shyft - teleporter with many tricks 
Solace - light-based, can create Armour Usable By Others, manifest a 
mystical energy sword, and has some healing 
Structure - can take on the properties of any material he touches (but can't 
always control it) 
Techno - a 4' gadgeteer 
Walker - described in the files as "balls nasty", has esoteric martial arts 
(is Brass' teacher) and excellent weapons skills. 
 
        I would go for two waves or teams if you prefer. 
Team One or The Front Liners 
Walker - Sounds like a nasty martial artist. 
Brawn - Brick, hopefully solid fighting abilities. 
Firewalker - Energy projector, should be able to stand up for a while. 
Gold - Sounds like a go in and kill'em member. 
 
Team Two or The Backline guys 
Psiclone - Able to direct traffic 
Structure - Able to lend help in whatever capacity is needed. 
        More Psi powers, More Light Armor, More healing 
Solace - Armor fellow members and strike at a distance. 
Techno - gives him time to come up with the right gadget. 
Shyft - Can pull of teleportation tricks and hopefully get everyone out of harm. 
Brass - Offer Backline Defense. 
 
 
        This is just one of the potential routes that I might try to take 
with such a team.  From the sounds of it, I would say that Structure is the 
most versatile member of the group. 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 03:29:29 EST 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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<< Watched by Police/Parole Officers.  The NCI would cover the fact that other 
people would treat you differently as well (assuming they knew about the 
papers)>> 
 
  More importantly, the NCI also includes the fact that if you violate Parole, 
your PO can do thereport that send your butt back to prison! That would put a 
crimp in character development, eh? 
 
<< Possibly Watched, though your not really to the full extent. >> 
 
  That depends on the city you're in. ;) Some POs are way too overworked to 
manage each parolee file effectively, I agree. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 03:34:19 EST 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: San Angelo Page 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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<< If Steve agrees to do this, I can come up with a few things I could send 
in using WAV format -- especially if a proposal Dave Mattingly and I are 
working on gets accepted..  (Some of them are deliciously twisted....) >> 
 
  Oooookay.... Should I be scared, here? ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 04:04:02 EST 
To: hero-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City? [looong tirade] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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<< I thought being from Boston was a requirement to living in SF ;) >> 
 
  Well, I'm in Sacramento and from North Andover (just North of Boston). Is 
that close enough? ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 04:34:18 EST 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Corporations (was: The Ultimate Super City? [looong tirade]) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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<< I didn't see any listings for Boston, New Orleans, Chicago, Washington D.C. 
or San Francisco in "Corporations", though of course that single product 
doesn't cover everything. >> 
 
  Corporations only included fictional companies, guy. I know -- I'm one of 
the authors. ;)  The fact that we omitted references to some big cities was 
intentional, using "Campaign City" in some places so GMs could plop the corps 
down in their campaign no matter where it took place. 
 
  Btw, Atlanta is listed as the HQ for several companies, IIRC, like Future 
Scope Inc, Carter-Mullering Ind.  And fwiw, there were about 2 dozen corps 
that were cut from the book. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 04:34:22 EST 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City? [looong tirade] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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<< If you didn't see San Francisco, you're reading the wrong book. >> 
 
  No he's not. AFAIK, he's referring to "Corporations," that Champions 
supplement that was written by two dashing and charming guys from 
Sacramento... ;) 
 
  Some of the following is nit-picky detail stuff I had to throw in, as it's 
verging into the realm of law enforcement info, my forte'. ;) 
 
<< (Bloods and Crypts... >> 
 
  Just FYI, that's "Crip," not "crypt" (though they're all heading there if 
they stay in that lifestyle) 
 
<< ...both get their roots in LA, and are the US's two largest youth gangs, >> 
 
  Two largest youth gangs? Where in LA? If you want to call them gangs. The 
Bloods (& the Crips) are certainly not a single gang in the tr4aditional 
sense. It's more akin to franchising. So what you have are a slew of local 
"sets," each claiming affilation with the Bloods name (usually an OG set from 
the East side, though sometimes only to the name "Bloods" in general). 
 
  If you're talking the largest gang in the US... a frighteningly large (and 
growing) group is the Gangster Disciples in Chicago. And that whole "Peoples" 
and "Folks" thing... yeesh! 
 
<< though I believe their cease fire is still in effect). >> 
 
  Don't kid yourself. There is no cease fire. All that "increase the peace" 
crap is just that. Crap. Bloods and Crips are still bangin' in each other's 
hoods. Ironically, though, there is more in-fighting among the various Crip 
sets than there is between Bloods & Crips a good part of the time. 
 
  Sorry for the digression. What can I tell you? I deal with some of this 
stuff at work. ;)  At least you know "Law & Order" will be well researched. :D 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: "Warren Henderson" <Warren@nepc.net> 
To: "hero-l@sysabend.org" <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 98 09:36:41  
Reply-To: "Warren@nepc.net" <Warren@nepc.net> 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City? (noise) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Mon, 30 Mar 1998 04:03:32 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
><< I thought being from Boston was a requirement to  
living in SF ;) >> 
> 
>  Well, I'm in Sacramento and from North Andover (just  
North of Boston). Is 
>that close enough? ;) 
> 
>  Mark @ GRG 
> 
 
Well I am sure You have discovered by now to the rest of  
the country all of Mass is Boston:) I live in Westford so  
I know where North Andover is, in fact my Uncle used to  
be the building inspector. 
 
Warren 
 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:39:52 +0100 
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
To: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
CC: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Foreshadowing and Sub-plots 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Filksinger wrote: 
>  
> On Tuesday, March 10, 1998 7:06 AM, David Stallard wrote: 
>  
> >How do you (as GMs) introduce foreshadowing and sub-plots into your 
> campaign without the players turning all their attention to them 
> instead of 
> the main plot?  For example, if I took a moment out of the main story 
> to 
> let the heroes know that someone has been stealing bodies from local 
> graveyards, they would probably think that it was related to the main 
> story 
> and would focus their efforts on the graveyard thing, instead of the 
> main 
> plot which is really not related to the graveyard thing....  I'm 
> guessing 
> that this example is too obvious a use of foreshadowing.  How can I be 
> more 
> subtle?  I saw some messages about giving handouts that are like 
> newspaper 
> stories, so the characters can see what else is going on, but first 
> you 
> have to have the time and inclination to sit down and write up a bunch 
> of 
> stuff like that (along with red herrings to keep them guessing), and 
> second 
> you could still have the problem that they would go after a news story 
> instead of working on the current plot.< 
>  
> Try these: 
>  
> 1) Don't be subtle at all. Tell the players, "This is foreshadowing. 
> It really has nothing to do with anything you are doing at this time." 
>  
> 2) Clueless foreshadowing. I used this one repeatedly in one campaign. 
> A single incident, in which a power vampire ran down an alley, there 
> was a blinding light, and a horrible scream which was suddenly cut 
> off. When the players arrived, they found the front of the vampire's 
> body _charred_, his head cut off, and written on the wall in his 
> blood, "Only one shall rule the night." When the players wanted clues, 
> I told them, "After some investigation of the area, both you and the 
> police agree that there are no traces of the killer." A later case of 
> the same thing was being locked up, and hearing the voice of, "He Who 
> Ruled the Night", but he was gone when they escaped, and everyone, 
> "Don't know nuttin'." 
>  
> 3) Do foreshadowing as a short story. Tell the story, including things 
> like, "you found no trace to follow", and "you shook it off. It was 
> probably nothing." If the players don't get the point, revert to 
> suggestion 1. 
>  
> Filksinger 
 
Another method which I like to use is to have the bare bones of any of 
my subplots ironed out, at least in my head if not commited to paper.. 
 
If the players get sucked into a subplot instead of concentrating of the 
real threat then I take this as the heroes mismanaging thier resources. 
Whilst they are dithering around with something else (the other case.. 
whatever) the main villian who I have taken the time and effort to write 
up gets to move his plan along a few stages. The PC's then have to 
really bust a hump to stop his latest master plan. 
 
I like my campaigns that little bit more realistic (I don't really play 
four-colour) and I think that this mirrors how supers would behave (and 
the mistakes that they would make) in the real world. This is something 
that you don't really see in comics such as the Avengers (which is 
cannon super hero teaming). Although I don't read a LOT of Avengers, 
what I have read rarely has them fighting more than one thing at one 
time... 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 04:43:11 -0600 (CST) 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Subject: Re: Corporations 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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  Btw, Atlanta is listed as the HQ for several companies, IIRC, like Future 
>Scope Inc, Carter-Mullering Ind.  And fwiw, there were about 2 dozen corps 
>that were cut from the book. 
 
Any chance of seeing those, maybe on the GRG page or, here? 
 
I loved Corporations and have used the format for creating all of the 
fictional corp's in my games. 
Rising Force Publications 
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist recently updated web site... 
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
"You have never lived until you have almost died.  
And for those who fight for it, 
life has a flavor the protected never know"  
- anonymous 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 06:00:18 -0600 (CST) 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net> 
Subject: Re: Foreshadowing and Sub-plots 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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> >How do you (as GMs) introduce foreshadowing and sub-plots into your 
> campaign without the players turning all their attention to them 
> instead of the main plot?  For example, if I took a moment out of the main 
story 
> to let the heroes know that someone has been stealing bodies from local 
> graveyards, they would probably think that it was related to the main 
> story and would focus their efforts on the graveyard thing, instead of the 
> main plot which is really not related to the graveyard thing....  I'm 
> guessing that this example is too obvious a use of foreshadowing.  How can 
I be 
> more subtle?  I saw some messages about giving handouts that are like 
> newspaper stories, so the characters can see what else is going on, but first 
> you have to have the time and inclination to sit down and write up a bunch 
> of stuff like that (along with red herrings to keep them guessing), and 
> second you could still have the problem that they would go after a news story 
> instead of working on the current plot.< 
 
What I like to do for foreshadowing in my campaign is to try to introduce 
several sub-plots at once.  In my current campaign, I have introduced 
atleast five sub-plots.  Some my campaigners have noticed, some they haven't. 
 
Sub-plots so far include, 
        Vampires: met once of the characters and tried to seduce him 
        Organ-legging: Mafia is selling organs on the black market 
        Viper (As the Main plot): they are after the main character 
        Inter-Dimensional travel: Prof. doing Interdimensional theories 
        A Arsenist sub-plot: Burned down a building 
        A cybernetics sub-plot: Major Cyberneticist was kidnapped at a Gov't 
rally. 
        Lame villian: hates being beaten and decides to start watching the 
heroes. 
        Car theft: Tie it into some larger plot.  Cars are being stolen 
far...etc. 
        Hero Vanishes!: Secret agency kidnaps hero to further research. 
        Bodies vanish: Possible tie-in to vampire or organ-lergging subplot. 
 
Enjoy 
 
-Dan 
 
 
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From: "Vance Scott" <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 07:10:31 -500 
Subject: Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota 
Reply-to: vances@sympatico.ca 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Fellow Heroes, 
 
     I may be in Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota for two weeks from  
mid april to the end of the month. I plan on visiting a friend of  
mine who lives there. I'd like to get together with some hero gamers  
for a role playing session, or two. Any interested parties are  
invited to send me an email confirming their interest in having a  
guest player, or game master.  
 
 
 
Vance Scott 
 
Vanquisher of all foes 
 
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From: "Vance Scott" <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 07:10:32 -500 
Subject: ORION CON. 
Reply-to: vances@sympatico.ca 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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My Fellow Heroes, 
 
    A game's convention is going to be held in Toronto this coming  
May.  A good friend of mine is involved in organizing it. I promised  
my friend that I do some advertising for him on this list. I'm  
planning on attending the Orion Convention and would be happy to meet  
some fellow hero gamers. I've commited to running a Standard  
Champions game, and a Dark Champions game so barring incident there  
will be a couple of Hero Games. 
 
ORION Games Convention 
 
When: May 2nd, and 3rd 
Where: CNE Grounds 
            Coliseum Building, West Annex. 
            Toronto, Ontario, Canada 
 
Who: The Rigel Group is sponsering this event 
Why: Because they're gamers, and they love games 
What: A games convention featuring roleplaying games, collectible  
	card games, and board games. 
How: With alot effort from the Rigel Group 
 
Prices:  
 
Pre-registration 
Single Day: $12			Weekend: $20 
 
Door Prices 
Single Day: $15			Weekend: $25 
Visitor Pass: $2 
 
"Midnight Madness" will only be available by Pre-Registration. 
 
A special deal: Game Masters and Volunteers will gain free entry on  
                         the day(s) they've volunteered to help. 
 
Any Questions? 
 
Then check out their Web Page or Email them at: 
 
orion@aracnet.net 
http://www.interlog.com/~pixell/orion.html 
 
Vance Scott 
 
Vanquisher of all foes 
 
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From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: 5th Edition Champions? 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 06:29:06 -0600 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Puma new to list, so bare with it yes! ^o^ 
Puma not hear of 5th edition Champions! 
Is it official? When be released? RSVPuma! 
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
    "No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!" - Joan of 
Arc's .sig 
	          Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
 
 
Attachment Converted: "c:\internet\eudora\attach\5th Edition Champions" 
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From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: San Angelo Page/Regional Supplements 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 07:02:26 -0600 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>> Seriously, how about a larger book -- especially if we're talking 
>>Hero Plus.  I've been tossing about an idea on a Chicago book for Hero 
>>Plus.  Something like Windy City Hero or Champions of Chicago. 
 
>   That's something I'd buy. 
>   For a title, I'd suggest Champions of the Windy City. 
 
How about: Cold, Wet, Miserable Champions! ^_^; 
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
    "No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!" - Joan of 
Arc's .sig 
	          Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From:	Bob Greenwade [SMTP:bob.greenwade@klock.com] 
> Sent:	Saturday, March 28, 1998 8:49 AM 
> To:	champ-l@sysabend.org 
> Subject:	Re: San Angelo Page/Regional Supplements 
>  
> At 08:30 AM 3/28/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
> >From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
> >Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
> >Subject: Re: San Angelo Page/Regional Supplements 
>  
> >>    BTW Tim, are you sending this directly to 
> owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
> >> instead of champ-l@sysabend.org for some reason (such as by 
> mistake), or is 
> >> the mail system just being weird again? 
> > 
> > I'd say the sytem's being wierd, cause I'm sending to the proper 
> >address, according to my sent-mail folder. 
>  
>    Parts of the (massive) header set that I didn't quote back tend to 
> support that; I suspect it's somewhere in your server system, since 
> it's 
> only happening to you. 
>  
> >> > Maybe.  That's something that is more expensive to put out than 
> >> >Web-Pge format information. 
> >> 
> >>    Granted; so the magazine won't be out this year.  It might be 
> something 
> >> cool to launch in 2001 or thereabouts, though. 
> > 
> > True, though maybe the companies could work with one of the 
> >existing fanzines to bring them to a broader audience. 
>  
>    Nah, I'd wait until it could be well-produced from Day One.  I had 
> in 
> mind something like the "our community" magazines that are put out in 
> many 
> real-world cities. 
>  
> >>    What would you folks on the list think is better: a broad-based 
> book 
> >> giving lots of detail about three states with leakage to the 
> surrounding 
> >> areas, or something giving finer detail to just Portland and its 
> environs 
> >> with leakage to the rest of Oregon? 
> > 
> > Both? 
>  
>    Well, I'll probably only want to do one or the other.  If I do Rose 
> City 
> Champions instead of Northwest Champions, then Seattle-Tacoma and 
> Boise 
> would have to be left to someone else. 
>  
> > Seriously, how about a larger book -- especially if we're talking 
> >Hero Plus.  I've been tossing about an idea on a Chicago book for 
> Hero 
> >Plus.  Something like Windy City Hero or Champions of Chicago. 
>  
>    That's something I'd buy. 
>    For a title, I'd suggest Champions of the Windy City. 
> --- 
> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
> Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: The Ultimate Super City? 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 07:37:02 -0600 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Puma like these ideas, maybe be all in one book! 
Have stuff for designing "Super environments" from 
city & surrounding areas to secret bases, etc. All 
integrated! All put together, make nice supplement! 
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
    "No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!" - Joan of 
Arc's .sig 
	          Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From:	Rook [SMTP:rook@infinex.com] 
> Sent:	Saturday, March 28, 1998 4:12 PM 
> To:	Dataweaver 
> Cc:	Lizard; Champions 
> Subject:	Re: The Ultimate Super City? 
>  
> > > I would love a book called "The Ultimate Super City", or, even 
> > > better, "The Ultimate Campaign World", but I would not want to see 
> it 
> > > based on any real city. A set of guidelines for city design (i.e, 
> how 
>  
> > Or, if the Powers That Be decide that that wouldn't sell, try The 
> Ultimate 
> > Super Base; it would cover much of the same territory (no pun 
> intended). 
>  
> 	Actually, these are very diferent topics. 
> One is for designing the 'campaign location' for a super hero game, 
> helping GM's 
> know what kind of info will be useful, what will just take up space 
> and 
> be useless, 
> how to justify villians in the area, etc... 
>  
> 	The other tells players, and GM's, how to design a base of 
> operations, 
> like Avenger's Mansion, Stormwatch's Skywatch, Dr. Doom's castle, 
> etc... 
>  
> 	I can see each justifying a whole book. And I'd much rather buy 
> these 
> kinds of books than modules or 'villian of the week club' books. 
> (Hello 
> Hero Games? GRG? listening there?) 
>  
> --  
> Rook			    
>  __ 
> /.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html  Super Hero Links 
> Page 
> \(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/              Super Hero Role 
> Playing 
 
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From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: New "Ultimate" Book Ideas! 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 07:44:13 -0600 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Ultimate Alien: Stuff for generating aliens, 
their worlds, technology, powers, etc. 
Useful in everything from Champions to 
Space and even "real-word" (i.e.. X-Files) 
genres! 
 
Ultimate Anime: Stuff for generating Anime-Style 
campaign worlds and characters. It cover all 
genres (since anime does) so could be in all 
types campaigns. Be style of doing game 
world (i.e.. anime-style space game vs. regular).  
Get some Otaku for work on this one! 
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
    "No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!" - Joan of 
Arc's .sig 
	          Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 06:04:26 -0800 (PST) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Champions? 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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X-UID: 72 
 
---"Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA"  wrote: 
> 
> Puma new to list, so bare with it yes! ^o^ 
> Puma not hear of 5th edition Champions! 
> Is it official? When be released? RSVPuma! 
 
Yep, it's official.  Steve Long (of Dark Champions fame) is heading 
the project, Gold Rush Games will be publishing it.   
 
When?  This is the gaming industry, "when" is when it's done. 
 
-=>John Desmarais 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 06:57:51 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 67 
 
John and Ron Prins wrote: 
>  
>  
> A suggestion: 
>  
> Touch Group: Pressure, Temperature, Balance, Pain, Limb Sense* 
>  
> *Close your eyes, and touch your left knee with your right hand. That's limb 
> sense, and is _very_ important if you're blinded - probably moreso than 
> pressure sense. 
>  
 
This is properly called "proprioception" or "propriosentesis". 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
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From: Drwoolf <Drwoolf@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:00:11 EST 
To: HeroGames@aol.com, owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Another Ultimate Super City? [looong tirade] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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In a message dated 98-03-29 18:50:17 EST, HeroGames@aol.com writes: 
 
<< I don't understand what you're asking for -- are you looking for a a book 
 about creating campaign cities for superhero campaigns, a book about creating 
 cities for any genre campaign, or a book of existing cities for a superhero 
 campaign?>> 
 
I am asking for all of the above. I would like to have a book that describes 
how to create cities and flesh them out for multiple genres and time-periods.  
 
Then I would like to see a line of books that describe individual cities and 
gives all of the usual details like places of interest, good/bad restaurants, 
local villians/heros, climate, etc.  I think a strong selling point of such a 
book would be to have plenty of NPC's, adventure seeds, and one big multi-part 
adventure that takes up at least half of the book and incorporates as many 
elements as possible from the city section. 
 
I don't expect to see any of this but you asked.  I do like what you guys have 
done in the past with Kingdom of Champions and hope you manage to exceed this 
level of quality. 
  
 <<Bay City is our take on what we though people want to see in a description 
of 
 an area for superhero roleplaying, and generally people seem to really like 
 what we did in there. Champions Worldwide will give similar (though shorter) 
 descriptions for some interesting cities in other countries (such as London, 
 Paris, Rome, Cairo, Hong Kong, etc.). Perhaps you could tell us what you 
liked 
 (or didn't like) about Bay City; that would be very helpful.>> 
 
I have nothing against bay city personally, I actually like it.  I haven't had 
time to do a thurough examination of it but from what I've seen you've managed 
to cover NPC's and adventure hooks quite well and even had room to throw in 
some local Heros and Villians.  I think if you stick to this format with 
Champions Worldwide you'll do well and if you stuff in more you'll do even 
better.   With something like that I would like to see more local 
heros/villians and what the local governments reaction to super beings are. 
  
 <<I don't know if a book about creating cities for different genres would 
have 
 enough of an audience to make it a profitable undertaking; it seems like only 
 a GM would be interested in it, which immediately cuts the market size by 
80%. 
  
 -- Steve Peterson, Hero Games  >> 
 
By making it multi-genre and semi-generic you open the market up again and 
cover all of those other game systems.  May not be the best idea but it sure 
hasn't hurt GURPS any.  I'm sure there are many people on this list who have 
GURPS books on their shelves.   
 
Vive la Champions 
 
Dave Wolf 
  
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 07:30:54 -0800 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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At 09:00 PM 3/29/1998 -0600, Dataweaver wrote: 
>On Sun, 29 Mar 1998, David Majors wrote: 
> 
>>  
>> Okay, anyone have to deal with this issue?  I am thinking about making a 
>> character who has flash sense group touch. 
>>  
>> Should this be one sense or a whole sense group?  Or should it actually 
>> not be allowed at all? 
>>  
>> What is your take? 
> 
>What's the SFX?   
> 
>(Possibilities: an anesthetic; a numb-ray, etc...) 
> 
>I'd allow it, but it would only affect one sense - touch.  (kind of a moot 
>point, considering that the only other "senses" in the touch sense group 
>are actually enhancements of Touch...) 
 
   I tend to look at the basic Touch Sense Group as consisting of four Senses: 
   1. Pressure Sense.  (This is the default "Touch" Sense when dealing with 
just one.)  Flash vs this, and the character cannot feel changes in terrain 
beneath his feet, the direction from which injuries come, the movement of 
wind, etc. 
   2. Temperature Sense.  Flash vs this, and a character cannot feel 
changes in temperature. 
   3. Body Awareness.  Flash vs this, and a character must be focally 
concentrating on something with a Targeting Sense, or else make an INT Roll 
at -5, in order to perform any task using his limbs. 
   4. Pain.  Flash vs this, and the character doesn't take STUN from 
injuries -- at least, not right away.  When the Flash wears off, the 
character takes all STUN that got through his defenses as though they were 
a Coordinated attack. 
   As you can probably surmise, if these are the basic Touch Senses (and 
certain Enhanced Senses, such as Spatial Awareness or even Combat Sense 
with the right SFX), then a Flash vs the whole Sense Group can be at least 
as powerful as a Flash vs the Sight Sense Group.  Since virtually no 
characters would think to have Flash Defense vs Touch (nor can I think of a 
large range of SFX), I'd make any Flashes vs Touch (let alone the whole 
Sense Group) quite rare. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 07:32:41 -0800 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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At 10:49 PM 3/29/1998 -0500, David Majors wrote: 
>> > Okay, anyone have to deal with this issue?  I am thinking about making a 
>> > character who has flash sense group touch. 
>> >  
>> > Should this be one sense or a whole sense group?  Or should it actually 
>> > not be allowed at all? 
>> >  
>> > What is your take? 
>>  
>> What's the SFX?   
> 
>Actually burns.  The body becomes overcome with a constant pain making it 
>impossible to feel anything but the pain of the burns. 
 
   Coupled with, what, an NND to do STUN damage from the pain?  Or maybe an 
AVLD vs Touch Flash Defense.... 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 07:38:19 -0800 
To: Hero System Listserv <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Team Tactics 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 83 
 
At 05:39 PM 3/29/1998 -0800, Robert A. West wrote: 
>Lisa Hartjes wrote: 
>>  
>> I recently joined a face to face Hero campaign, and my character (a 16 year 
>> old full psi with 3 days training and 1 mission under her belt) has become 
>> leader of a 10 person hero team.  The team is completely disorganised, and 
> 
>You mean, the other members have *less* leadership than a green  
>sixteen-year-old!  (And one mission is still a greenhorn in my book.)   
>Jeeze! 
 
   I was kinda wondering about that myself.... 
 
>> this probably lead to the vaporisation death of the previous leader (he got 
>> taken out by a Minuteman Mark VIII). 
> 
>Your disorganized team is fighting people with strategic nuclear weapons?  
>What is the power level of this campaign?  Do your opponents have Hunted  
>by Entire World 14-?  Or, am I missing something? 
 
   Genocide Minuteman Mk VIII.  Genocide is in The Mutant File.  The Mk VII 
is in that book; I can only guess whether the GM in this game is using the 
Mk VIII from TUSV, or made up his own. 
 
>Try having tactical debriefings or after-action reports.  These can be  
>done by email without losing the principal face-to-face flavor of the  
>game, and the players will feel as if they are members of a team, where  
>each contributes. 
 
   While I like and agree with all of your advice, I just wanted to point 
this one out as being a particularly good idea that never would have 
occurred to me had you not mentioned it.  Whoever does The Ultimate Super 
Team should take notice.  :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:45:59 EST 
To: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  Reply to Hero Games: re: Supercities. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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In a message dated 3/29/98 8:10:08 PM, trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu wrote: 
 
<<	One book for all of the above?  I'd hope that room would be left 
for individual suppliments in the Hero Plus line.>> 
 
Certainly there'd be plenty of room for expansion in a separate book. Our 
intent was to provide a bunch of places for globe-trotting superheroes, to 
give players a taste for that. 
 
> I don't know if a book about creating cities for different genres would have 
> enough of an audience to make it a profitable undertaking; it seems like 
only 
> a GM would be interested in it, which immediately cuts the market size by 
80%. 
 
	I'm not sure about that.  As-is, GMs do a majority of the buying. 
Most Hero Gamers that I know that don't run anything don't buy anything. 
However, at least half run something and therefore are active purchasers. 
The city and regional books would be great for the Hero Plus line -- which 
has a smaller sales expectation anyway. 
>> 
 
Well, if someone writes 'em, we'll publish 'em! We'd like to publish 
adventures, too, which of course only the GM would buy, but for some reason we 
haven't had any submissions along those lines lately. Once we get our 
electronic commerce set up, I'm especially interested in short adventures -- 
because a GM could go on our web site and immediately download an evening's 
adventure, which I think would be a great service. 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games  
 
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 09:48:12 -0600 (CST) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City?  
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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What do you guys see that there will be in these 'City' books that  
makes them worthwhile ?  For real-world cities / areas can't somebody just do 
a little research or buy a tourist guide ? 
 
Curt 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:12:38 -0500 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Block vs Dodge 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
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I've always been confused about using Block vs Dodge.  It seems to me like 
Dodge is always the better maneuver to use, unless you know the SPD of your 
opponent and thus know you will be able to use Block to ensure that you 
move before him in your next phase.  Am I missing something here? 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 08:16:56 -0800 
To: "Hero System Listserv" <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Team Tactics 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 06:08 PM 3/29/1998 -0500, Lisa Hartjes wrote: 
>Let's see.... 
 
   Giving general advice on a character-by-character basis: 
 
>Brass - an esoteric martial artist 
>Brawn - a brick with some mystical potential 
 
   These two should follow up Walker in the front.  More on that later. 
 
>Firewalker - energy projector (flames) with damage shield 
>Gold - ion-based (very little known of her powers, but she's shown a 
killing attack, 
>         and does not have complete control of her powers) 
 
   Let these two take the flanks, or provide air cover if they fly.  They 
can take down flyers first, and then anyone who's giving the ground allies 
a hard time.  Or one can take the latter function (probably the one with 
the lower SPD) while the other watches the first one's back. 
 
>Psiclone - telepathy, mind control, 50 STR TK, and a vertigo attack 
 
   A good candidate for "mentalist sniper syndrome."  Stay on the edge of 
battle, and use Mind Control to get enemies to attack heroes who can easily 
avoid their attacks or soak up the damage they do.  The TK can be used to 
sabotage the villains' efforts, like ramming flyers into the ground ("The 
Jackhammer Maneuver"), turning vehicles upside-down, or holding a 
non-flying opponent in the air to make him a sitting duck for those with 
ranged attacks. 
 
>Shyft - teleporter with many tricks 
 
   Let him use his tricks to the best of his ability.  A trick he may have 
not thought of, assuming he can teleport others with him, is to grab a 
non-flying opponent, Teleport way up in the air (using a held phase), and 
then Teleport away without the opponent, letting the opponent either fall 
to the ground (doing 10-15d6 damage, depending on the height) or become a 
sitting duck for ranged attacks and flying Move Throughs. 
 
>Solace - light-based, can create Armour Usable By Others, manifest a mystical 
>             energy sword, and has some healing 
 
   This is another character to keep on the fringe, using that Armor UBO to 
protect low-defense teammates and take care of injured comerades. 
 
>Structure - can take on the properties of any material he touches (but 
can't always 
>                 control it) 
>Techno - a 4' gadgeteer 
 
   These are hard to call.  I think I'd mostly have them follow up the 
point team (Walker, Brass, and Brawn), and give them free rein to screw up 
the opposition -- with instructions to watch each others' backs should one 
go down. 
 
>Walker - described in the files as "balls nasty", has esoteric martial 
arts (is 
>              Brass' teacher) and excellent weapons skills. 
 
   Here, I think, is your point man.  If there's a clear leader or other 
target (like a Mind Linking mentalist), have Brass and Brawn forge a path 
between that and Walker, and support Walker in taking that target down. 
   One tactic they can try together is to have Walker Grab the target and 
pass him off to Brawn, who pins the target down while the other two beat 
the crap out of him (the target, that is).  Brawn can then take the 
target's unmoving form and throw him at another villain (which probably 
won't do much damage, but can create an opening for a teammate). 
   They can then move on to the next Top Priority Target (which will 
probably be the opponent who has had the least trouble to that moment). 
 
>7 out of the 10 characters became superheroes when rescued by the hero 
>organisation when Genocide made a big push to wipe out all mutants in NYC. 
>Personally, I don't know very much about the characters other than Psiclone 
>except for what has been seen in actual game play.  My character hasn't had 
>a chance to talk to her teammates much since she got the leadership.  In 
>fact, she's only been leader for about an hour game time.  :) 
 
   I'd also recommend that the first opportunity she has, she gets them all 
in a quiet place (or back at HQ) to learn each others' abilities and 
discuss (in character) power-combination maneuver ideas. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 08:20:07 -0800 
To: "hero-l@sysabend.org" <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City? [looong tirade] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 85 
 
At 10:35 PM 3/29/1998, Warren E Henderson III wrote: 
>On Sat, 28 Mar 1998 21:04:48 -0800, Rook wrote: 
> 
>>(BTW, one of the qualifiers to being a native 
>>of SF is you have to despise LA, which from what I hear is also a 
>>requirement to be considered a native of LA as well. :) (hating LA that 
>>is)). 
> 
>I thought being from Boston was a requirement to living in SF ;).  
>Don't forget for Boston's attraction our wonderful driving habits, 
>abyssimal roads, lack of road signs and truely friendly attitude 
>towards visitors :).  Can you tell I am from a small town not the big 
>city.  Oh Yah, the Airport rots too. 
 
   And I thought that the main requirement for living in San Francisco is 
reacting to "Frisco" as though someone had taken a giant metal claw and run 
it down a chalkboard (kinda like pronouncing Oregon "OH-ree-gawn" instead 
of "OH-ree-gun," or Louisville "LOU-ee-vill" instead of "LOU-uh-vill"). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Gamers Wanted! 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:24:23 -0600 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 82 
 
Looking for champions gamers in the Northern Virginia area! RSVPuma! 
 
NOTE: Someone mentioned that all my messages came with attachments. 
I'm not adding any, so if they are there, it's a ghost in the machine! 
Please 
tell me if you are getting my messages with phantom attachments, thanks! 
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
    "No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!" - Joan of 
Arc's .sig 
	          Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
 
 
Attachment Converted: "c:\internet\eudora\attach\Gamers Wanted!" 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 08:53:29 -0800 (PST) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net 
Subject: Message Attachements (was: Re: Gamers Wanted!) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 89 
 
---"Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA"  wrote: 
> 
> Looking for champions gamers in the Northern Virginia area! RSVPuma! 
>  
> NOTE: Someone mentioned that all my messages came with attachments. 
> I'm not adding any, so if they are there, it's a ghost in the machine! 
> Please 
> tell me if you are getting my messages with phantom attachments, 
thanks! 
 
What mail program are you using? 
Are you doing any text formatting in your message (or .sig), like 
italics, boldface, or font selection? 
 
--=>John Desmarais 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:17:45 EST 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 88 
 
  I'm getting a lot of e-mails recently with the following attached file: 
"Unknown.bin"  Anyone know why this is? 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:18:20 EST 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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<< When?  This is the gaming industry, "when" is when it's done.>> 
 
  Touche'. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 09:21:22 -0800 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: New "Ultimate" Book Ideas! 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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At 07:44 AM 3/30/1998 -0600, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA wrote: 
 
   (Am I the only one getting file attachments with all of Keith's posts?) 
 
>Ultimate Alien: Stuff for generating aliens, 
>their worlds, technology, powers, etc. 
>Useful in everything from Champions to 
>Space and even "real-word" (i.e.. X-Files) 
>genres! 
 
   This isn't really an Ultimate book candidate, since Aliens are an origin 
type rather than a character archetype.  However, books covering some of 
the various superhero origin types in greater detail than the respective 
Enemies books from the ICE days would be nice. 
 
>Ultimate Anime: Stuff for generating Anime-Style 
>campaign worlds and characters. It cover all 
>genres (since anime does) so could be in all 
>types campaigns. Be style of doing game 
>world (i.e.. anime-style space game vs. regular).  
>Get some Otaku for work on this one! 
 
   Again, while the book idea is a good and valid one, this isn't really an 
Ultimate book candidate.  It's more of a genre book in the same way that 
Dark Champions is (it covers multiple genres in the strictest sense -- in 
DC's case, both superheroes and action/adventure, with some spillover to 
near-future sci-fi).  
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:25:26 EST 
To: Warren@nepc.net, hero-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City? (noise) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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<< I live in Westford so I know where North Andover is, in fact my Uncle used 
to  
be the building inspector. >> 
 
  I think I'll take this thread to private e-mail now. :) We're getting off- 
topic. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City? 
To: exucurt@exu.ericsson.se (Curt Hicks) 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 09:29:00 -0800 (PST) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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>  
>  
> What do you guys see that there will be in these 'City' books that  
> makes them worthwhile ?  For real-world cities / areas can't somebody just do 
> a little research or buy a tourist guide ? 
 
	True. Which is why I think a book on how to make Cities into Super 
Cities (even if those cities are fictional) would be much more useful. 
 
Rook ?U ?k 1b  'no giga pets were harmed in the production of this message'. 
 __ 
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html	Super Hero Links 
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/			Super Hero Roleplay 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:29:45 EST 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Another Ultimate Super City? [looong tirade] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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<< By making it multi-genre and semi-generic you open the market up again and 
cover all of those other game systems.>> 
 
  IMO, hhaving a generic, multi-genre book about creating cities would be a 
bust. Way too much info is required, thus no genre would get a fair shake; 
each would be lacking tremendously. And I still don't think it would sell that 
well, either... not well enough to justify the production expenses, at any 
rate. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:35:39 EST 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 93 
 
<< I've always been confused about using Block vs Dodge.  It seems to me like 
Dodge is always the better maneuver to use, unless you know the SPD of your 
opponent and thus know you will be able to use Block to ensure that you 
move before him in your next phase.  Am I missing something here?>> 
 
  Dodge generally requires you to move a short distance. With Block, you can 
stay in place and deliver a counterattack. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:37:35 EST 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 96 
 
<< What do you guys see that there will be in these 'City' books that makes 
them worthwhile ?  For real-world cities / areas can't somebody just do a 
little research or buy a tourist guide ?>> 
 
  One of the nice things about having such a book is that all of the leg-work 
and research has already been done for you, presented in a nice relevant 
package (complete with game stats), and is immediately usable. Just like an 
Enemies book... anyone can create 60 of their own supervillains for use in a 
game. But if you don't *want* to create 60 of your own villains... 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
To: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Bob Greenwade) 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 09:42:21 -0800 (PST) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 94 
 
>    I tend to look at the basic Touch Sense Group as consisting of four Senses: 
 
>    4. Pain.  Flash vs this, and the character doesn't take STUN from 
> injuries -- at least, not right away.  When the Flash wears off, the 
> character takes all STUN that got through his defenses as though they were 
> a Coordinated attack. 
 
	Possible munchkin hole here. It would be very useful to say, flash 
oneself on this effect for a good 20 phases or so... Making you temporarily 
nigh invulnerable. 
	Even doing it for 3-4 phases (a not to high cost flash) at the right 
point in combat almost ensures a win. 
 
	This is essentially a low cost version of 'automaton, usable against 
others' with a lim that it only lasts so long... More than likely such an 
automaton powr would be illegal. I'd have to look into it. 
 
Rook ?U ?k 1b  'no giga pets were harmed in the production of this message'. 
 __ 
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html	Super Hero Links 
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/			Super Hero Roleplay 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 09:44:41 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City?  
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 102 
 
At 09:48 AM 3/30/1998 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote: 
> 
>What do you guys see that there will be in these 'City' books that  
>makes them worthwhile ?  For real-world cities / areas can't somebody just do 
>a little research or buy a tourist guide ? 
 
   Good tourist information and good adventuring information are two 
different things. 
   In a good city/regional sourcebook, there should be enough information 
that the GM will have to go to few other sources to get what he needs. 
Throw in some villain headquarters and resource locations for superheroes, 
and you'll have a good reason for PCs from elsewhere to visit the area. 
   Some potentially good locations in Portland, for example, would be 
(giving them in order of thought) Portland International Raceway, the 
Oregon Museum of Science and Industry, the 24-Hour Church of Elvis (don't 
ask), Tom McCall Waterfront Park, the Rose Center (which has two coliseums, 
Memorial Coliseum and the Rose Garden), the Metro Washington Park Zoo, 
Lloyd Center (one of the largest shopping malls in the Northwest), Forest 
Park (largest municipal park in the world), or the Grotto (a small 
walk-through at a Catholic retreat, with sculptures of the Passion of 
Jesus).  All of these are little-known or unlikely sources of or locations 
for adventure.  Combine this with the heated political discussions 
Oregonians tend to get into and the fact that Portland has the highest 
per-capita rate instances of adult businesses, both legal and illegal, of 
any city in the world (yes, even San Francisco and Las Vegas), and you can 
find something for everyone.  And there I've only scratched the surface, 
haven't even gone outside the city limits for points of interest, and have 
ignored corporate headquarters for companies like Tektronix, Nike, and 
Jantzen Swimwear. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:49:29 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
To: Champions Discussion List <champ-l@omg.org> 
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 30 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote: 
 
> I've always been confused about using Block vs Dodge.  It seems to me like 
> Dodge is always the better maneuver to use, unless you know the SPD of your 
> opponent and thus know you will be able to use Block to ensure that you 
> move before him in your next phase.  Am I missing something here? 
 
You are missing, perhaps, that with block you get *two* chances at defense 
instead of one. If you fail your block, they still have to hit your DCV. 
 
The block maneuver is declared before the attack roll is made, and it's 
OCV vs. OCV. For example, lets say you have a character who has some 
shiftable combat levels, and last turn he went all out on his OCV. Block 
is better than dodge for him because he can take advantage of that high 
OCV. If you can outmatch your opponents OCV, but your DCV is low, block is 
always a good call. 
 
Furthermore, once you start blocking, you keep blocking, at the cumulative 
penalty, until you miss. *Everyone* you block successfully is set up for 
your next attack. Block can give you the edge over someone faster than 
you. 
 
Now, in the superheroic genre there are character archetypes, and the 
archetypes and the genre don't lend themselves to Block like, say, Fantasy 
Hero does. Ranged attacks, and energy attacks, and move-throughs, and 
other things Block doesn't make sense with are common in superhero games. 
Furthermore, in superhero games the martial artist archetype is almost 
always a super-high DCV character with a martial dodge. The bricks are 
often built slow, with high defenses, so most of the time they'd rather 
take a hit than lose an action. A few superheroic archetypes can use 
block, or block in combination with missile deflection, effectively. 
Captain America-types, Wonder-Woman-bracelet-types, and so on. Still, too 
often, character builders forget about block and don't build characters 
that can take advantage of this often-underrated maneuver. 
 
In fantasy campaigns, where melee combat and swordfights are common, so is 
block. Good swashbucklers, often built with those handy 8-point combat 
levels that can shift into OCV or DCV as needed, representing a "combat 
stance," employ the block a lot. Remember, in a more realistic campaign 
like fantasy, nobody wants to get hit. Your armor can't always protect you 
from a skilled sword-slash. A good hit might stun you, a well-placed (head 
or vitals) hit can kill. It's worth it to spend actions to wait for the 
right moment to set up your attack. This is well-done on the part of the 
Hero system--played correctly, a real swashbuckling feel is developed. Two 
well-matched opponents can square off for a few turns in combat, neither 
really fighting for the kill but rather the advantage that will lead to 
the kill. With block, a fighter can even fend off two or three opponents 
by parrying all their blades and backing away to the door, even though he 
may have to face the multiple attackers bonus. 
 
In the superhero genre, you get hit all the time. Resistant defenses 
aren't luxuries--they're stats, and they're bought high. Combats are 
shorter. Attacks come in many different flavors. Area-effect attacks are 
easy to come by. You don't always have something it makes sense to block 
with. You'd rather not waste an action, but when you do, it's most often 
going to be dodge.  
 
Here are some suggestions on spicing up the block maneuver for your 
campaign: 
 
- The suprise maneuver bonus allows +1 to +3 OCV. Block also uses your 
OCV, which brings us to the concept of the surprise block! In supers 
games, it's likely to be something nearby (in the comics this might be a 
mirror or board or bus or whatever... of course the BODY and DEF of the 
object must be considered; in fantasy, it can be a concealed dagger that 
you draw at the right time, to follow through with your next sword 
attack.) 
 
- A neat house rule is to allow especially good blocks to throw the 
opponent off balance a bit. For every 3 the block roll is made by, 
subtract 1 from the attackers DCV! (for the purposes of the next attack 
from the blocker only) This might force the unbalanced opponent into 
having to block himself. 
 
- Chracters who are especially good at block should buy levels with the 
block maneuver. Want to use those 3-point levels? Put block, dive for 
cover, and dodge together. This represents a character with the reflexes 
for defensive combat. Remember, the level can only be used on one of the 
set at any given time. 
 
- The rules allow a character to dive for "cover" in order to take an 
attack destined for another character. But if it makes sense, and the 
characters are in the same hex, there's no reason not allow one character 
to block for another either. The sword, swinging down on the priest's 
head... (commerical break)... CLANG! The priest looks up to see the 
fighter's intervening blade, and breathes a sigh of relief. 
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City? [looong tirade] 
To: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Bob Greenwade) 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 09:52:44 -0800 (PST) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 97 
 
> >>(BTW, one of the qualifiers to being a native 
> >>of SF is you have to despise LA, which from what I hear is also a 
> >>requirement to be considered a native of LA as well. :) (hating LA that 
> >>is)). 
> > 
> >I thought being from Boston was a requirement to living in SF ;).  
 
	Really. Never met anyone from Boston here. :) 
 
>    And I thought that the main requirement for living in San Francisco is 
> reacting to "Frisco" as though someone had taken a giant metal claw and run 
> it down a chalkboard (kinda like pronouncing Oregon "OH-ree-gawn" instead 
> of "OH-ree-gun," or Louisville "LOU-ee-vill" instead of "LOU-uh-vill"). 
 
	Oh yeah. Them's fight'n words. :) 
	I do hear the occaisional "moved here from back east" person insist 
on using 'da engl'sh wa' o' sawing dese tings'. But that's where we get our 
bridge jumpers from. (Oops, wasn't supposed to let that one out. :) ) 
 
Rook ?U ?k 1b  'no giga pets were harmed in the production of this message'. 
 __ 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:14:25 -0500 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re:  Reply to Hero Games: re: Supercities. 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by Hero Games 
>Well, if someone writes 'em, we'll publish 'em! We'd like to publish 
adventures, too, which of course only the GM would buy, but for some reason 
we 
haven't had any submissions along those lines lately. Once we get our 
electronic commerce set up, I'm especially interested in short adventures 
-- 
because a GM could go on our web site and immediately download an evening's 
adventure, which I think would be a great service.< 
 
Yes!  I would love a bunch of adventures outlined in a few paragraphs each. 
 Ideally, I'd like to see lots of story seeds planted throughout other 
source material.  I think you guys have been pretty good about this in the 
C:NM books, but the best example I've ever come across is the Throal 
sourcebook (written by Robin Laws) for the Earthdawn RPG.  Open the book to 
almost any page and you'll find one or two "Story Seed" sections placed 
with the regular background material.  Anyway, even adventures without 
surrounding source material would be great.  Something like "Challenges for 
Champions", but more adventures and maybe less detail per adventure.  A few 
paragraphs that basically just "think out" the story twists, turns, and 
complications for me, but leave it extremely open-ended so I can mold it 
for my campagn,  would be extremely valuable.  And if you put it on the web 
site for free, even better.  -grin- 
 
As for not getting adventure submissions, it seems like a general trend 
these days NOT to publish adventures, but instead publish big descriptive 
books from which GMs can derive their own.  While I definitely find value 
in the sourcebooks, I miss the days (in That Other Game, primarily) when 
there were adventure modules by the dozen. 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:20:09 -0800 
To: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com&> champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: Another Ultimate Super City? [looong tirade] 
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At 12:29 PM 3/30/98 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< By making it multi-genre and semi-generic you open the market up again and 
>cover all of those other game systems.>> 
> 
>  IMO, hhaving a generic, multi-genre book about creating cities would be a 
>bust. Way too much info is required, thus no genre would get a fair shake; 
>each would be lacking tremendously. And I still don't think it would sell 
that 
>well, either... not well enough to justify the production expenses, at any 
>rate. 
> 
A book on modern day cities, at least from WW2 to the near future, would 
cover a wide range of genres (pulp, Golden Age, Silver Age, Dark Champions, 
espionage, conspiracy, and early Cyberpunk) and thus be of the greatest 
possible use to the greatest number of people. 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:39:41 -0600 (CST) 
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com> 
To: John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
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On Sun, 29 Mar 1998, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
> >I kinda like the sense group option that was just mentioned by Sakura  
> ><jeffj@io.com>.  The concept that pressure and heat are two different 
> >affects of touch makes sense to me. 
> > 
> >Anyone have any other ideas for senses that should be included in this 
> >group? 
>  
> A suggestion: 
>  
> Touch Group: Pressure, Temperature, Balance, Pain, Limb Sense* 
>  
> *Close your eyes, and touch your left knee with your right hand. That's 
> limb sense, and is _very_ important if you're blinded - probably moreso 
> than pressure sense.  
 
Commonly known as "kinesthetic sense".   
 
Personally, I think that this is breaking things up a little too finely: 
the sense of sight is technically a combination of black-and-white highly 
sensitive sensors and a pair of red-green and yellow-blue color sensors; 
the sense of taste is broken up into a four (five?) basic areas, including 
saltiness, bitterness, sweetness, etc.; and so on.  Yet no one would dream 
of breaking either of these into their components.  Why is Touch any 
different?   
 
> Flash vs. Touch Group: If you're blinded, you're in BIG trouble. You 
> can't feel pain or damage. You can't feel where your limbs are. You 
> can't feel heat or cold. You can't feel the vibrations under your feet.  
> You can't feel that your foot is caught under a branch. You have no 
> sense of balance. I'm tempted to suggest 0 DEX, unless you already have 
> no sense of touch to begin with. You need your Touch sense to get around 
> properly. 
 
Good one... 
 
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver --------- 
  Webpage:  http://www.io.com/~traveler  /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists 
  GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life  ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing, 
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www  |  that all points of view have 
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet  |  something of value to offer. 
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com |  --David Brin, "Otherness" 
 
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From: Rog <uraeus@mail3.bunt.com> 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Ex-military Heroes 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:42:36 +0200 
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I like Semper Fi, but it would give the image of leaning more toward the USMC 
rather than a mixture of all branches of service 
 
Silver Berets - I dunno, I think the beret thing has been overdone thru the various 
media; books, comics, movies, etc 
 
-Roger 
"Me judice" - "I being judge" 
 
---------- 
From:  Robert A. West [SMTP:robtwest@erols.com] 
Sent:  Monday, March 30, 1998 12:06 AM 
To:  champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject:  Re: Ex-military Heroes 
 
Other suggestions:  
	Para-X (paranormal ex-military), or Meta-X, if you prefer. 
	Semper Fidelis -- always faithful, the Marine Corps motto. 
		You may prefer the shortened form, "Semper Fi",  
		popularized by Ronald Reagan, who could not pronounce  
		the full motto. 
	The Silver Berets -- in homage to the Special Forces, and as 
		the distinguishing feature of their adopted uniform.	 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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From: Rog <uraeus@mail3.bunt.com> 
To: "'hero-l@sysabend.org'" <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: The Ultimate Super City? [looong tirade] 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:58:54 +0200 
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Yah!  I once (way way back when) ran a very short campaign in Hartford, using the 
original Marvel SuperHeroes game...before I found the light 
 
-Roger 
"If you can't excel with talent, triumph with effort." - Dave Weinbaum 
 
---------- 
From:  Tim R. Gilberg [SMTP:trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu] 
Sent:  Monday, March 30, 1998 6:32 AM 
Cc:  hero-l@sysabend.org 
Subject:  Re: The Ultimate Super City? [looong tirade] 
 
 
Harvard, BU, BC . . . lots of places to put a young Supers team.  Still, I 
think a New England hero would be best.  Boston and maybe Hartford are the only cities that would really need any sort of writeup. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
 
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From: Rog <uraeus@mail3.bunt.com> 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Ex-military Heroes 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:59:08 +0200 
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I like Semper Fi, but it would give the image of leaning more toward the USMC 
rather than a mixture of all branches of service 
 
Silver Berets - I dunno, I think the beret thing has been overdone thru the various 
media; books, comics, movies, etc 
 
-Roger 
"Me judice" - "I being judge" 
 
---------- 
From:  Robert A. West [SMTP:robtwest@erols.com] 
Sent:  Monday, March 30, 1998 12:06 AM 
To:  champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject:  Re: Ex-military Heroes 
 
Other suggestions:  
	Para-X (paranormal ex-military), or Meta-X, if you prefer. 
	Semper Fidelis -- always faithful, the Marine Corps motto. 
		You may prefer the shortened form, "Semper Fi",  
		popularized by Ronald Reagan, who could not pronounce  
		the full motto. 
	The Silver Berets -- in homage to the Special Forces, and as 
		the distinguishing feature of their adopted uniform.	 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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From: Rog <uraeus@mail3.bunt.com> 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Ex-military Heroes 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:59:13 +0200 
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I thought of that, but I was kinda looking for something a little less obvious. 
I may end up using that if I don't find something else that really captures my fancy. 
 
The Volunteer Veterans (Venture) ? 
 
-Roger 
"fiat justitia, ruat caelum" - "Let justice be done even if the heavens fall" 
 
---------- 
From:  qts [SMTP:qts@nildram.co.uk] 
Sent:  Sunday, March 29, 1998 9:36 PM 
To:  champ-l@sysabend.org; Rog 
Subject:  RE: Ex-military Heroes 
 
I'd suggest a name from American history: the Minutemen. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:31:26 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
To: Champions Discussion List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge (fwd) 
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On Mon, 30 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote: 
 
> I've always been confused about using Block vs Dodge.  It seems to me like 
> Dodge is always the better maneuver to use, unless you know the SPD of your 
> opponent and thus know you will be able to use Block to ensure that you 
> move before him in your next phase.  Am I missing something here? 
 
You are missing, perhaps, that with block you get *two* chances at defense 
instead of one. If you fail your block, they still have to hit your DCV. 
 
The block maneuver is declared before the attack roll is made, and it's 
OCV vs. OCV. For example, lets say you have a character who has some 
shiftable combat levels, and last turn he went all out on his OCV. Block 
is better than dodge for him because he can take advantage of that high 
OCV. If you can outmatch your opponents OCV, but your DCV is low, block is 
always a good call. 
 
Furthermore, once you start blocking, you keep blocking, at the cumulative 
penalty, until you miss. *Everyone* you block successfully is set up for 
your next attack. Block can give you the edge over someone faster than 
you. 
 
Now, in the superheroic genre there are character archetypes, and the 
archetypes and the genre don't lend themselves to Block like, say, Fantasy 
Hero does. Ranged attacks, and energy attacks, and move-throughs, and 
other things Block doesn't make sense with are common in superhero games. 
Furthermore, in superhero games the martial artist archetype is almost 
always a super-high DCV character with a martial dodge. The bricks are 
often built slow, with high defenses, so most of the time they'd rather 
take a hit than lose an action. A few superheroic archetypes can use 
block, or block in combination with missile deflection, effectively. 
Captain America-types, Wonder-Woman-bracelet-types, and so on. Still, too 
often, character builders forget about block and don't build characters 
that can take advantage of this often-underrated maneuver. 
 
In fantasy campaigns, where melee combat and swordfights are common, so is 
block. Good swashbucklers, often built with those handy 8-point combat 
levels that can shift into OCV or DCV as needed, representing a "combat 
stance," employ the block a lot. Remember, in a more realistic campaign 
like fantasy, nobody wants to get hit. Your armor can't always protect you 
from a skilled sword-slash. A good hit might stun you, a well-placed (head 
or vitals) hit can kill. It's worth it to spend actions to wait for the 
right moment to set up your attack. This is well-done on the part of the 
Hero system--played correctly, a real swashbuckling feel is developed. Two 
well-matched opponents can square off for a few turns in combat, neither 
really fighting for the kill but rather the advantage that will lead to 
the kill. With block, a fighter can even fend off two or three opponents 
by parrying all their blades and backing away to the door, even though he 
may have to face the multiple attackers bonus. 
 
In the superhero genre, you get hit all the time. Resistant defenses 
aren't luxuries--they're stats, and they're bought high. Combats are 
shorter. Attacks come in many different flavors. Area-effect attacks are 
easy to come by. You don't always have something it makes sense to block 
with. You'd rather not waste an action, but when you do, it's most often 
going to be dodge.  
 
Here are some suggestions on spicing up the block maneuver for your 
campaign: 
 
- The suprise maneuver bonus allows +1 to +3 OCV. Block also uses your 
OCV, which brings us to the concept of the surprise block! In supers 
games, it's likely to be something nearby (in the comics this might be a 
mirror or board or bus or whatever... of course the BODY and DEF of the 
object must be considered; in fantasy, it can be a concealed dagger that 
you draw at the right time, to follow through with your next sword 
attack.) 
 
- A neat house rule is to allow especially good blocks to throw the 
opponent off balance a bit. For every 3 the block roll is made by, 
subtract 1 from the attackers DCV! (for the purposes of the next attack 
from the blocker only) This might force the unbalanced opponent into 
having to block himself. 
 
- Chracters who are especially good at block should buy levels with the 
block maneuver. Want to use those 3-point levels? Put block, dive for 
cover, and dodge together. This represents a character with the reflexes 
for defensive combat. Remember, the level can only be used on one of the 
set at any given time. 
 
- The rules allow a character to dive for "cover" in order to take an 
attack destined for another character. But if it makes sense, and the 
characters are in the same hex, there's no reason not allow one character 
to block for another either. The sword, swinging down on the priest's 
head... (commerical break)... CLANG! The priest looks up to see the 
fighter's intervening blade, and breathes a sigh of relief. 
 
 
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From: "Charles Fox" <midnight.special@worldnet.att.net> 
To: "Curt Hicks" <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se&> <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City?  
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:41:47 -0800 
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-----Original Message----- 
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Monday, March 30, 1998 8:30 AM 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City? 
 
 
 
> 
>What do you guys see that there will be in these 'City' books that 
>makes them worthwhile ?  For real-world cities / areas can't somebody just 
do 
>a little research or buy a tourist guide ? 
> 
>Curt 
 
Hmm, last time I looked in a Fodor's Travel guide, I couldn't find anything 
at all about the underworld criminal element for that city, or about the 
various organized policing groups that are there to stop them. Guess someone 
should tell them to start including this, eh? 
 
MIGh pL 
Guardian of Truth, Justice, and the Houstonian Way 
 
 
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:43:39 -0600 (CST) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
I (Curt Hicks) wrote:  
 
>  
> What do you guys see that there will be in these 'City' books that  
> makes them worthwhile ?  For real-world cities / areas can't somebody just do 
> a little research or buy a tourist guide ? 
>  
 
Rook wrote:  
 
> 	True. Which is why I think a book on how to make Cities into Super 
> Cities (even if those cities are fictional) would be much more useful. 
>  
 
So, what's the difference between a 'City' and a 'Super City' ? 
I guess where this is heading is towards a suggested table of contents / 
overview of a typical City guide.  (BTW, I'm confining my comments to  
a City guide for the superhero genre..) 
 
"Charles Fox" <midnight.special@worldnet.att.net> wrote:  
>  
>  
> Hmm, last time I looked in a Fodor's Travel guide, I couldn't find anything 
> at all about the underworld criminal element for that city, or about the 
> various organized policing groups that are there to stop them. Guess someone 
> should tell them to start including this, eh? 
>  
 
Add a section on "Crime and the Underworld in City 'X'" ?  Sounds reasonable. 
But how different is this going to be per city and how realistic does it 
have to be ?  Can't this just be made up ? 
 
Mark @ GRG <GoldRushG@aol.com> wrote:  
 
>  
>   One of the nice things about having such a book is that all of the leg-work 
> and research has already been done for you, presented in a nice relevant 
> package (complete with game stats), and is immediately usable. Just like an 
> Enemies book... anyone can create 60 of their own supervillains for use in a 
> game. But if you don't *want* to create 60 of your own villains... 
>  
 
OK, so we have more fictional characters &/or possibly organizations.  I guess 
my point here is wondering how related to a particular location these have 
to be.  Couldn't you take a corporation from the sourcebook and set it in any city you wanted ?  You might have to tweak it a bit.   
 
 
Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> wrote: 
>  
>    Good tourist information and good adventuring information are two 
> different things. 
>    In a good city/regional sourcebook, there should be enough information 
> that the GM will have to go to few other sources to get what he needs. 
> Throw in some villain headquarters and resource locations for superheroes, 
> and you'll have a good reason for PCs from elsewhere to visit the area. 
 
>    Some potentially good locations ...... 
 
What is "good adventuring information" ? 
 
Add sections on "Interesting locations and places in City 'X'" and  
(fictional) "Local heroes and villains".    
 
What I'm trying to get at is that I would not be interested in 
paying money for a Chicago sourcebook,  
for example, unless it concentrated on things that 
would make a setting in Chicago unique that I could not find just by doing  
a minimal amount of research.  Further, I don't know that there are enough 
of these unique factors that producing a sourcebook is justified. 
 
Just my opinion. 
 
Curt Hicks  
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:56:18 -0800 
To: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com&> champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net> 
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:35 PM 3/30/98 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< I've always been confused about using Block vs Dodge.  It seems to me like 
>Dodge is always the better maneuver to use, unless you know the SPD of your 
>opponent and thus know you will be able to use Block to ensure that you 
>move before him in your next phase.  Am I missing something here?>> 
> 
>  Dodge generally requires you to move a short distance. With Block, you can 
>stay in place and deliver a counterattack. 
 
Do you mean like move out of your hex?  How short is short?  I have NEVER 
played where a dodging character ever had to move ANY distance.  They get 
the DCV plusses just for dodging (like ducking, jumping, side-stepping, 
contorting, etc.) 
 
Could you be thinking of "Dive for Cover?" 
 
Jim 
 
---G-A-T-E-C-R-A-S-H-E-R-----Q-U-O-T-E----- 
         "What the hell is this?" 
   Words spoken by Bristol Addams -- one 
       of which activated the Gate 
----------O-F----T-H-E----D-A-Y------------ 
Jim Dickinson -=- champion@cyberhighway.net 
  Circle of HEROs Homepage -- Join Today! 
     http://www.aircyber.net/~jd/coh 
              CHECK IT OUT! 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "DS" == David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> writes: 
 
DS> I've always been confused about using Block vs Dodge.  It seems to me 
DS> like Dodge is always the better maneuver to use, unless you know the 
DS> SPD of your opponent and thus know you will be able to use Block to 
DS> ensure that you move before him in your next phase.  Am I missing 
DS> something here? 
 
Yep, you are.  Take two characters with DEX 26, OCV/DCV 7, same speed. 
 
Example 1: A attacks and B dodges.  B's DCV goes from 7 to 10; A needs to 
roll 9- to hit.  If A rolls 3, 4, 5, or 6, he hits B.  A has a roughly 
40-45% chance to hit B. 
 
Example 2: A attacks and B blocks.  B's OCV and DCV are 7; A's OCV is 7.  B 
must roll 11- to block A's attack; if he fails to block, A must roll 11- to 
hit B.  A has a roughly 30% chance to hit B. 
 
Block is usually superior to Dodge in hand to hand combat.  But it is 
generally useless against ranged attacks. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 30 Mar 1998 15:01:52 -0500 
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>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
BG>    4. Pain.  Flash vs this, and the character doesn't take STUN from 
BG> injuries -- at least, not right away.  When the Flash wears off, the 
BG> character takes all STUN that got through his defenses as though they 
BG> were a Coordinated attack. 
 
Oh, no.  The GM keeps track of Stun and Body damage the character has taken 
(yeah, it makes more book-work for him, *sigh*), describing wounds in 
general terms.  When the character is finally knocked out or killed, the GM 
informs the player of the character.  Go look at Shadowrun's "Pain Editor" 
implant for more grusome details :). 
 
Personally, this is exactly why I do not want to see a "touch" sense group 
in Hero.  This is very much not comic bookish, and very much not cinematic. 
 
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--  
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From: "Ron Abitz" <ronald@centraltx.net> 
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Team Tactics 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:11:06 -0600 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
---------- 
> From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
> To:  
> Cc: Hero System Listserv <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
> Subject: Re: Team Tactics 
> Date: Tuesday, March 31, 1998 12:32 PM 
>  
> Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
> >   Let him use his tricks to the best of his ability.  A trick he may 
have 
> not thought of, assuming he can teleport others with him, is to grab a 
> non-flying opponent, Teleport way up in the air (using a held phase), and 
> then Teleport away without the opponent, letting the opponent either fall 
> to the ground (doing 10-15d6 damage, depending on the height) or become a 
> sitting duck for ranged attacks and flying Move Throughs.< 
>  
> I don't understand why getting an opponent up in the air would make him 
> easier to hit with ranged attacks or flying Move Throughs.  Is this 
because 
> you would have eliminated any cover he may have been behind? 
 
Plus he cann't dodge and you know where he is going. (Down <G>) 
 
            Ron Abitz 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 98 20:18:09  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Thu, 26 Mar 1998 18:47:42 -0800, Robert A. West wrote: 
 
>Dataweaver wrote: 
>>  
>> On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, Robert A. West wrote: 
>>  
>> > This ties into something else I have wondered about.  How does one 
>> > implement a "Societal Limitation", in which someone lacks a status  
>>  
>> See the suggestion for "Social Limits". 
> 
>Since I sent this post, I have seen several suggestions for such a disad  
>class, but no recommended quantification.  I will eagerly read it when I  
>see it. 
>  
>> > Of course, one could make every *other* character in the campaign take a 
>> > perk: Roman Citizen 5 pts, or give it as an everyman perk that can be 
>> > sold back, but the character has "is believed to be Roman Citizen" which 
>> > is much the same thing. 
>>  
>> No; those would be "Everyman Perks", and - like "Everyman skills", getting 
>> rid of one requires taking an appropriate Disad (Physical Limit: Cannot 
>> Drive). 
> 
>Well, the book does suggest that a desert character could sell back the  
>Everyman 2" of swimming, so it would seem reasonable to rule that  
>characters who cannot drive sell back their everyman Transport  
>Familiarity: this is worth less than the Phys Lim you recommend. 
 
I'm going to bite on this. I suggest that we need to look more deeply 
at the 'Why'. A desert character who cannot swim because he's never 
encountered a suitable body of water simply sells back his swimming. 
When he gets the opportunity, he can buy off that disad. Likewise, a 
character who can't drive because she's never been taught similarly 
sells back her TF; but if she couldn't drive because she had a problem 
with hand-eye coordination (for example), then that would be a Phys 
Lim, and would have other in-game effects. Similarly, a character who 
is able to drive, but not legally so (e.g. no license) is not able to 
buy back points or get a Limitation. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 98 20:21:56  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Sat, 28 Mar 1998 01:59:08 -0800, Robert A. West wrote: 
 
>Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>>  
>> > Well, the book does suggest that a desert character could sell back the 
>> > Everyman 2" of swimming, so it would seem reasonable to rule that 
>> > characters who cannot drive sell back their everyman Transport 
>> > Familiarity: this is worth less than the Phys Lim you recommend. 
>>  
>>         Not true.  Not being able to drive in a modern society is much 
>> more limiting than being unable to swim. 
> 
>Irrespective of how limiting it is, selling back the everyman Transport  
>Familiarity is worth only one point, while the smallest Phys Lim possible  
>is worth 5 points.  It is up to the GM to choose which one best  
>represents the disadvantage in his campaign.  YMMV, since a superhero  
>with Flight or Teleportation has a way around the limitation. 
 
I forgot to mention this in my last post, but the Prime Rule of 
Diadvantages applies: if the character can Teleport or fly or whatever, 
then he doesn't get a disadvantage worth any points! Not so obviously, 
this also applies to a hero able to hail a taxi... 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:32:39 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 09:42 AM 3/30/1998 -0800, Brian Wong wrote: 
>>    I tend to look at the basic Touch Sense Group as consisting of four 
Senses: 
> 
>>    4. Pain.  Flash vs this, and the character doesn't take STUN from 
>> injuries -- at least, not right away.  When the Flash wears off, the 
>> character takes all STUN that got through his defenses as though they were 
>> a Coordinated attack. 
> 
> Possible munchkin hole here. It would be very useful to say, flash 
>oneself on this effect for a good 20 phases or so... Making you temporarily 
>nigh invulnerable. 
> Even doing it for 3-4 phases (a not to high cost flash) at the right 
>point in combat almost ensures a win. 
> 
> This is essentially a low cost version of 'automaton, usable against 
>others' with a lim that it only lasts so long... More than likely such an 
>automaton powr would be illegal. I'd have to look into it. 
 
   Don't forget that, once the effect wears off, there's a high likelihood 
that the character would have taken so many hits in the meantime that he'd 
be effectively Optioned Out. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:39:33 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City? [looong tirade] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 09:52 AM 3/30/1998 -0800, Brian Wong wrote: 
>>    And I thought that the main requirement for living in San Francisco is 
>> reacting to "Frisco" as though someone had taken a giant metal claw and run 
>> it down a chalkboard (kinda like pronouncing Oregon "OH-ree-gawn" instead 
>> of "OH-ree-gun," or Louisville "LOU-ee-vill" instead of "LOU-uh-vill"). 
> 
> Oh yeah. Them's fight'n words. :) 
 
   Around here, the only thing worse than saying, "OH-ree-gawn," is, "You 
know, this state really needs a sales tax." 
 
> I do hear the occaisional "moved here from back east" person insist 
>on using 'da engl'sh wa' o' sawing dese tings'. But that's where we get our 
>bridge jumpers from. (Oops, wasn't supposed to let that one out. :) ) 
 
   You mean, they jump *voluntarily*? 
   Getting back to something on topic... I wonder if there's any similar 
thing that grates on the nerves of San Angelo residents, eh? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City? 
To: exucurt@exu.ericsson.se (Curt Hicks) 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:55:15 -0800 (PST) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>> What do you guys see that there will be in these 'City' books that  
>> makes them worthwhile ?  For real-world cities / areas can't somebody just do 
>> a little research or buy a tourist guide ? 
>>  
> Rook wrote:  
>  
>> 	True. Which is why I think a book on how to make Cities into Super 
>> Cities (even if those cities are fictional) would be much more useful. 
>  
> So, what's the difference between a 'City' and a 'Super City' ? 
 
	Well, a city is just that. A Super City would be all the info 
one needs to add to a regular city to make it fit for Super Gaming. Such as 
villians, bases, agencies, etc... In addition to adding, you need to flesh out 
things. Flesh out the politics and media, and how they interact with heroes and 
villians. Advice for picking neighborhoods to put bases in. How to set up a 
logical patrol zone. How to give the neighborhoods a four color (or Dark 
Champs or whatever) feel. Etc... 
 
 
> Mark @ GRG <GoldRushG@aol.com> wrote:  
>>  
>>   One of the nice things about having such a book is that all of the leg-work 
>> and research has already been done for you, presented in a nice relevant 
>> package (complete with game stats), and is immediately usable. Just like an 
>> Enemies book... anyone can create 60 of their own supervillains for use in a 
>> game. But if you don't *want* to create 60 of your own villains... 
>  
> OK, so we have more fictional characters &/or possibly organizations.  I guess 
> my point here is wondering how related to a particular location these have 
> to be.  Couldn't you take a corporation from the sourcebook and set it in any city you wanted ?  You might have to tweak it a bit.   
> 
	Yeah, we don't need these things to be enemies books with new cover 
art. We need advice on how to take those enemies, allies, and corps and add 
them into the cities we choose to use/create. 
  
>  
> Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> wrote: 
>>  
>>    Good tourist information and good adventuring information are two 
>> different things. 
>  
> What is "good adventuring information" ? 
> 
	Well. I'd want advice on how to locate my villians best. How to give 
each neighborhood a comic book feel. How to make the politics full of gaming 
potential without seeming pushed or artificial. Etc... 
  
>> Throw in some villain headquarters and resource locations for superheroes, 
>> and you'll have a good reason for PCs from elsewhere to visit the area. 
 
> Add sections on "Interesting locations and places in City 'X'" and  
> (fictional) "Local heroes and villains".    
>  
> What I'm trying to get at is that I would not be interested in 
> paying money for a Chicago sourcebook,  
> for example, unless it concentrated on things that 
> would make a setting in Chicago unique that I could not find just by doing  
> a minimal amount of research.  Further, I don't know that there are enough 
> of these unique factors that producing a sourcebook is justified. 
 
	Exactly. 
 
Rook ?U ?k 1b  'no giga pets were harmed in the production of this message'. 
 __ 
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html	Super Hero Links 
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/			Super Hero Roleplay 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:59:16 -0800 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 08:21 PM 3/30/1998, qts wrote: 
>>Irrespective of how limiting it is, selling back the everyman Transport  
>>Familiarity is worth only one point, while the smallest Phys Lim possible  
>>is worth 5 points.  It is up to the GM to choose which one best  
>>represents the disadvantage in his campaign.  YMMV, since a superhero  
>>with Flight or Teleportation has a way around the limitation. 
> 
>I forgot to mention this in my last post, but the Prime Rule of 
>Diadvantages applies: if the character can Teleport or fly or whatever, 
>then he doesn't get a disadvantage worth any points! Not so obviously, 
>this also applies to a hero able to hail a taxi... 
 
   There are certain limitations, though, to "able to hail a taxi": 
   "Take me to the intersection of Third and Main, and step on it!" 
   "Third and Main?  You mean, where those Destruction Company guys are 
raising a ruckus?  No way!" 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:02:19 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Another Ultimate Super City? [looong tirade] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:20 AM 3/30/1998 -0800, Lizard wrote: 
>At 12:29 PM 3/30/98 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
>><< By making it multi-genre and semi-generic you open the market up again 
and 
>>cover all of those other game systems.>> 
>> 
>>  IMO, hhaving a generic, multi-genre book about creating cities would be a 
>>bust. Way too much info is required, thus no genre would get a fair shake; 
>>each would be lacking tremendously. And I still don't think it would sell 
that 
>>well, either... not well enough to justify the production expenses, at any 
>>rate. 
>> 
>A book on modern day cities, at least from WW2 to the near future, would 
>cover a wide range of genres (pulp, Golden Age, Silver Age, Dark Champions, 
>espionage, conspiracy, and early Cyberpunk) and thus be of the greatest 
>possible use to the greatest number of people. 
 
   Agreed.  This would be the place to start, at least.  Once the market 
level was determined, then a determination could be made whether to expand 
into sci-fi and/or fantasy/historical cities, or even planet creation (I 
want that one!).  But a book on how to build/research modern-day cities for 
adventure gaming is something that, in my view at least (and apparently in 
a few others), would be a Good Thing. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:04:00 -0800 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Ex-military Heroes 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 08:59 PM 3/30/1998 +0200, Rog wrote: 
>I thought of that, but I was kinda looking for something a little less 
obvious. 
>I may end up using that if I don't find something else that really 
captures my fancy. 
> 
>The Volunteer Veterans (Venture) ? 
 
   How about Veterans of the Domestic War?  (War against crime, that is.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:11:57 -0800 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:01 PM 3/30/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
> 
>BG>    4. Pain.  Flash vs this, and the character doesn't take STUN from 
>BG> injuries -- at least, not right away.  When the Flash wears off, the 
>BG> character takes all STUN that got through his defenses as though they 
>BG> were a Coordinated attack. 
> 
>Oh, no.  The GM keeps track of Stun and Body damage the character has taken 
>(yeah, it makes more book-work for him, *sigh*), describing wounds in 
>general terms.  When the character is finally knocked out or killed, the GM 
>informs the player of the character.  Go look at Shadowrun's "Pain Editor" 
>implant for more grusome details :). 
> 
>Personally, this is exactly why I do not want to see a "touch" sense group 
>in Hero.  This is very much not comic bookish, and very much not cinematic. 
 
   The thing is, there's been a lot more done with (as opposed to against) 
the sense of touch in all media.  At least one rendition of Daredevil has 
been able to read text with his fingertips.  Some martial artists are able 
to sense their surroundings by the feel of air movements around them. 
Occasionally "nature men" in Westerns (natives, mountain men, trackers, 
etc.) can use the feel of the ground to tell when horses or other beasts 
are approaching (or making some other movement) without being able to see 
the herd in question.  At least once every other year I see a mystery story 
where a blind person is attacked, and uses touch (along with other senses, 
of course) to give details about the assailant.  And these are just what I 
can think of off the top of my head, as far as storytelling elements. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
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From: "R & B" <bswarren@flash.net> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Hero & GRG settings 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:22:15 -0600 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
I would like know if the two campaigns (C:TNM and SA:COH) will be mutually 
exclusive. I, like many other Hero fans have converted C:TMN into 4E. I 
really like the setting. I know that the two will not intrinsically work 
together but since many of us will be using both, I hope that some thought 
has gone into allowing them to coexist. Hopefully we will not be forced to 
chose between settings, that would hurt sales of both products. 
 
Randy Madden 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:31:21 EST 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< I have NEVER played where a dodging character ever had to move ANY 
distance.>> 
 
  Note that I did not say "always has to move some distance." I said generally 
requires moving some distance. 
 
<< They get the DCV plusses just for dodging (like ducking, jumping, side- 
stepping, 
contorting, etc.) >> 
 
  Ducking, jumping and side-stepping are all what I would consider falling 
into the "moving some distance" comment. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:33:38 EST 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City? [looong tirade] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< I wonder if there's any similar thing that grates on the nerves of San 
Angelo residents, eh? >> 
 
  Oh, I'm sure there are a few things. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:38:06 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 01:43 PM 3/30/1998 -0600, Curt Hicks wrote: 
>"Charles Fox" <midnight.special@worldnet.att.net> wrote:  
>> Hmm, last time I looked in a Fodor's Travel guide, I couldn't find anything 
>> at all about the underworld criminal element for that city, or about the 
>> various organized policing groups that are there to stop them. Guess 
someone 
>> should tell them to start including this, eh? 
> 
>Add a section on "Crime and the Underworld in City 'X'" ?  Sounds reasonable. 
>But how different is this going to be per city and how realistic does it 
>have to be ?  Can't this just be made up ? 
 
   The flavor of organized crime from one city to the next really can make 
a big difference.  To take a few examples (and using "cinematic" rather 
than necessarily factual models):  Chicago and New Orleans have a lot of 
police corruption in terms of cops who commit crimes; this is also a 
problem in NYC and LA, though overzealous cops are more common there.  The 
import of illegal drugs is a major problem in Miami (from Columbia) and San 
Francisco (from the Far East).  Vice operations abound in NYC, LA, and 
Portland. 
   These, like I say, are just off-the-cuff examples based on the 
"stereotypes" seen on TV and in movies.  And the proportions of "ethnic" 
organized crime (LCN, yakuza, cartels, etc.) can make a big difference in 
the flavor as well. 
 
>Mark @ GRG <GoldRushG@aol.com> wrote:  
>>   One of the nice things about having such a book is that all of the 
leg-work 
>> and research has already been done for you, presented in a nice relevant 
>> package (complete with game stats), and is immediately usable. Just like an 
>> Enemies book... anyone can create 60 of their own supervillains for use 
in a 
>> game. But if you don't *want* to create 60 of your own villains... 
> 
>OK, so we have more fictional characters &/or possibly organizations.  I 
guess 
>my point here is wondering how related to a particular location these have 
>to be.  Couldn't you take a corporation from the sourcebook and set it in 
any city 
>you wanted ?  You might have to tweak it a bit.   
 
   You could that, but there are certain things that have a distinct 
"flavor" for the region in which they're placed.  For instance, I'd have a 
hard time thinking of Dr Goldwing (from Kingdom of Champions) as a native 
of Hoboken. 
 
>Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> wrote: 
>>    Good tourist information and good adventuring information are two 
>> different things. 
>>    In a good city/regional sourcebook, there should be enough information 
>> that the GM will have to go to few other sources to get what he needs. 
>> Throw in some villain headquarters and resource locations for superheroes, 
>> and you'll have a good reason for PCs from elsewhere to visit the area. 
> 
>>    Some potentially good locations ...... 
> 
>What is "good adventuring information" ? 
 
   Well, moving to a different part of the state from Portland, let's take 
the Sea Lion Caves as an example.  This is the only regular home for sea 
lions on the North American continent.  It consists of a medium-sized cave 
which opens up to the ocean, and a long crevice which is open to the ocean 
to the south but is some 100' above the sea to the north.  A chain-link 
fence separates the sea lions in the main cave from the humans in the upper 
cave; an (aging) elevator carries the humans from the surface to the cave 
and back. 
   A gift shop and admissions office sits on the cliffside above, and there 
are also two overlooks from which one can see the sea lions lounging on a 
sand bar (which is essentially inaccessible to humans, at least those 
coming from the road), or passing ships and (depending on the time of year) 
whales. 
   What adventuring possibilities could there be?  Well, a sunken or buried 
treasure (either ancient or recent) could be in the lower cave.  A PC could 
be stopping by there on vacation, and one of his Hunters sabotage the 
elevator.  Some body fluid of a wild sea lion could be needed for an 
obscure cure or magic elixer, and this place presented as the best place to 
get to a wild sea lion.  A DNPC could be turned into a sea lion by an evil 
magician, and join the group that hangs out there.  And those are just what 
I can think of offhand. 
 
>Add sections on "Interesting locations and places in City 'X'" and  
>(fictional) "Local heroes and villains".    
 
   Absolutely, as has been done in every city/regional sourcebook so far. 
 
>What I'm trying to get at is that I would not be interested in 
>paying money for a Chicago sourcebook,  
>for example, unless it concentrated on things that 
>would make a setting in Chicago unique that I could not find just by doing  
>a minimal amount of research.  Further, I don't know that there are enough 
>of these unique factors that producing a sourcebook is justified. 
> 
>Just my opinion. 
 
   It may be that you'd have to actually see what was done with the book to 
see what was possible.  Kingdom of Champions really was the father of 
regional sourcebooks, at least from a Hero standpoint.  Justice, Not Law 
set some new standards for city sourcebooks.  San Angelo will probably do 
more for both.  Looking at these books (and, to a lesser extent, Champions 
of the North) can give you a general idea of what could be done with a 
city/regional sourcebook. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:54:39 -0500 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by Stainless Steel Rat 
>Yep, you are.  Take two characters with DEX 26, OCV/DCV 7, same speed. 
Example 1: A attacks and B dodges.  B's DCV goes from 7 to 10; A needs to 
roll 9- to hit.  If A rolls 3, 4, 5, or 6, he hits B.  A has a roughly 
40-45% chance to hit B.< 
 
I don't follow this example.  If A has an OCV of 7 and B has a DCV of 10, 
then A needs 8- to hit (11 + 7 - 10 = 8).  If A rolls a 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, or 
8, he hits.  If I'm doing this correctly, it only proves your point 
further, because it's even easier for A to hit B. 
 
Anyway, my problem was that I didn't realize that there were two 
rolls...one to see if there's a block, and then another to hit if the block 
failed.  Block isn't used that often in my campaign (because everyone 
thought Dodge was better) so I missed that rule. 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:02:32 EST 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Hero & GRG settings 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< I would like know if the two campaigns (C:TNM and SA:COH) will be mutually 
exclusive. I know that the two will not intrinsically work together... >> 
 
  They may be mutually exclusive as printed, but there is nothing to say that 
you cannot place San Angelo in your C:NM campaign. After all, C:NM focuses on 
Bay City, and San Angelo is a good 70-90 minutes Northeast of Bay City. ;) 
 
<< but since many of us will be using both, I hope that some thought has gone 
into allowing them to coexist. Hopefully we will not be forced to chose 
between settings, that would hurt sales of both products.>> 
 
  You, as GM, can always do whatever you want with our products. No one is 
going to say you cannoy use elements of C:NM in SA or vice versa. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:21:26 EST 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< Anyway, my problem was that I didn't realize that there were two 
rolls...one to see if there's a block, and then another to hit if the block 
failed.  Block isn't used that often in my campaign (because everyone thought 
Dodge was better) so I missed that rule. >> 
 
  We (in my group) have traditionally allowed the Block to be rolled only 
after the attacker makes their roll. And if the attacker misses, no need ot 
make a Block roll (though you are still considered to able using your action 
to "Block"). 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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Subject: Telekinesis Questions 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 98 17:40:40 -0500 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
To: "Hero Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
OK, 
 
So, how does everyone represent your basic, garden variety 
psionic telekinesis.  The common ability to manipulate  
the environment by "simple" force of will.  Nearest I can 
tell, it would have to be Telekinesis, Fully Indirect,  
Invisible (+3/4, not mental group) at a minimum.  So 
a starting character can never manage more than around a  
16 STR.  To really make it mental should(?) imply, No Range 
Mod and make a top strength around 13.  Is mental TK really 
that unbalanced by nature? 
 
On a similar topic, TK w/o Fine manipulation still allows 
fine work on a 9+(TK points/5).  Does this mean that at  
45 points Fine Manipulation is a free addition?  Also, every 
other mention of points in the powers refer to Active Points, 
does TK really break the mold and mean Character Points? 
 
Just curious as to others takes on this. 
 
PAX, 
John 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:59:20 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Telekinesis Questions 
To: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
Cc: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
John P Weatherman writes: 
> OK, 
>  
> So, how does everyone represent your basic, garden variety 
> psionic telekinesis.  The common ability to manipulate  
> the environment by "simple" force of will.  Nearest I can 
> tell, it would have to be Telekinesis, Fully Indirect,  
> Invisible (+3/4, not mental group) at a minimum.  So 
> a starting character can never manage more than around a  
> 16 STR.  To really make it mental should(?) imply, No Range 
> Mod and make a top strength around 13.  Is mental TK really 
> that unbalanced by nature? 
 
Actually, it only needs indirect at the +1/2 level, alternate source isn't very 
meaningful in combination with invisible power effects.  This means you only 
need a total of +1.25 or +1.75, allowing 14 or 17 strength ;).  For your 
answer, in a game where mental awareness is not quite common it _is_ that 
unbalancing (arguably, it should be 'AVLD does body -- defense is 'internal' 
defenses). 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Date: 30 Mar 1998 18:16:47 -0500 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "DS" == David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> writes: 
 
DS> I don't follow this example.  If A has an OCV of 7 and B has a DCV of 
DS> 10, then A needs 8- to hit (11 + 7 - 10 = 8).  If A rolls a 3, 4, 5, 6, 
DS> 7, or 8, he hits.  If I'm doing this correctly, it only proves your 
DS> point further, because it's even easier for A to hit B. 
 
Hmmm... oops, my bad.  Dodge is +3 DCV, Martial Dodge is +5.  I 
accidentally started with Martial Dodge and forgot to edit the example. 
Sorry for the confusion.  I'm not sure how I got a 9- on the roll, though. 
That might have been a genuine typo. 
 
So now I need to go back over my math a bit more carefully....  Yeah... 
CVs being equal, Block is slightly more effective a defense than Dodge 
against the initial hand to hand strike because the attacker's roll is made 
less than half the time that the defender attempts to block.  If the 
defender's CV is higher than the attacker, Block is a dramatically more 
effective defense maneuver than Dodge, at least for melee attacks. 
 
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Reply-To: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com> 
From: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com> 
To: "Hero System Listserv" <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: New PBEM Looking For Players 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:43:30 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
For many years cartographers labelled unknown areas of the world with 
the words "Here Be Dragons".  In the Dragon Hunters, you are a member 
of a small and secretive group that investigates strange phenomenon. 
Using the Hero System, role-playing will be emphasized over combat so 
we am looking for well-rounded characters. 
 
The Dragon Hunters are a group of adventurers with a quest for knowledge and 
your submission should reflect that.  To get a feel for the game and the 
universe that 
it takes place in, you must visit the Quantum Universe home page for 
campaign info and guidelines.  I look forward to your submission. 
 
If you have any questions, please direct them to dragon_hunters@hotmail.com 
. 
 
Quantum Universe Page: 
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/daniken/79/quantum.htm 
 
 
 
Lisa Hartjes 
beren@unforgettable.com 
Home:  http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/daniken/79 
"Ummm...  Why is the big red light marked 'Danger' flashing?" 
 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
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Date: 30 Mar 1998 18:43:55 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
BG>    The thing is, there's been a lot more done with (as opposed to 
BG> against) the sense of touch in all media.  At least one rendition of 
BG> Daredevil has been able to read text with his fingertips. 
 
An extra point of "literacy" for the alphabet for a sighted person, free 
for a blind person (balanced by the loss of the 1 point literacy for the 
conventional written language form). 
 
BG> Some martial artists are able to sense their surroundings by the feel 
BG> of air movements around them. 
 
Spatial Awareness. 
 
BG> Occasionally "nature men" in Westerns (natives, mountain men, trackers, 
BG> etc.) can use the feel of the ground to tell when horses or other 
BG> beasts are approaching (or making some other movement) without being 
BG> able to see the herd in question. 
 
Spatial Awareness or Clairsentience. 
 
BG> At least once every other year I see a mystery story where a blind 
BG> person is attacked, and uses touch (along with other senses, of course) 
BG> to give details about the assailant. 
 
A character with less than a "total" level on her "blindness" disadvantage. 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:18:44 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> 
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
>  We (in my group) have traditionally allowed the Block to be rolled only 
>after the attacker makes their roll. And if the attacker misses, no need ot 
>make a Block roll (though you are still considered to able using your action 
>to "Block"). 
> 
 
Personally, I wouldn't play it that way.  You don't get to wait 
until the bad guy punches you in the face to decide that you  
want to stop him from doing it.  As soon as the attacker declares 
the strike, the target must declare the block -- and once he does, 
he's committed. 
 
To answer the original question (to wit: difference between Dodge 
and Block), here's another angle:  With a Dodge, you continue  
dodging until your next action phase, maintaining a constant DCV. 
The Block allows you to keep blocking, but at a minus with every 
subsequent attempt.  (Your blocking arm can be in only so many  
places at once. 
 
One more note:  I don't know how the rest of you play it, but 
my understanding is that the Dodge does NOT involve movement. 
If you want to move, you Dive for Cover.   
======================  ================================================= 
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed  
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is  
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead 
======================  ================================================= 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:27:21 -0800 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 06:43 PM 3/30/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
> 
>BG>    The thing is, there's been a lot more done with (as opposed to 
>BG> against) the sense of touch in all media.  At least one rendition of 
>BG> Daredevil has been able to read text with his fingertips. 
> 
>An extra point of "literacy" for the alphabet for a sighted person, free 
>for a blind person (balanced by the loss of the 1 point literacy for the 
>conventional written language form). 
 
   In other words no points -- for something this unusual?  Discriminatory 
or Microscopic Touch, at the very least. 
 
>BG> Some martial artists are able to sense their surroundings by the feel 
>BG> of air movements around them. 
> 
>Spatial Awareness. 
 
   Of what Sense Group? 
 
>BG> Occasionally "nature men" in Westerns (natives, mountain men, trackers, 
>BG> etc.) can use the feel of the ground to tell when horses or other 
>BG> beasts are approaching (or making some other movement) without being 
>BG> able to see the herd in question. 
> 
>Spatial Awareness or Clairsentience. 
 
   Again, Spatial Awareness going into what Sense Group? 
 
>BG> At least once every other year I see a mystery story where a blind 
>BG> person is attacked, and uses touch (along with other senses, of course) 
>BG> to give details about the assailant. 
> 
>A character with less than a "total" level on her "blindness" disadvantage. 
 
   Hardly.  And that still doesn't address the fact that the sense of Touch 
(or, more specifically, pressure sense) is what's used. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:39:23 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:55 PM 3/30/1998 -0800, Brian Wong wrote: 
>> So, what's the difference between a 'City' and a 'Super City' ? 
> 
> Well, a city is just that. A Super City would be all the info 
>one needs to add to a regular city to make it fit for Super Gaming. Such as 
>villians, bases, agencies, etc... In addition to adding, you need to flesh 
out 
>things. Flesh out the politics and media, and how they interact with 
heroes and 
>villians. Advice for picking neighborhoods to put bases in. How to set up a 
>logical patrol zone. How to give the neighborhoods a four color (or Dark 
>Champs or whatever) feel. Etc... 
 
   Or, which neighborhoods are more "Four Color" in feel, which are "Dark," 
and which are generic (or fit better into some other "mold"). 
 
>> Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> wrote: 
>>>  
>>>    Good tourist information and good adventuring information are two 
>>> different things. 
>>  
>> What is "good adventuring information" ? 
>> 
> Well. I'd want advice on how to locate my villians best. How to give 
>each neighborhood a comic book feel. How to make the politics full of gaming 
>potential without seeming pushed or artificial. Etc... 
 
   On that second item: a comic book feel, *or* the feel for whatever genre 
and media type you're trying to represent.  (The pacing and atmosphere of a 
comic book is often much different from that of a half-hour animated 
series, and an hour-long TV drama is different as well, as is a motion 
picture, or a novel....) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:02:30 -0600 
From: Kevin Roberts <kr23st00@apex.net> 
To: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
CC: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Telekinesis Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> So, how does everyone represent your basic, garden variety 
> psionic telekinesis.  The common ability to manipulate 
> the environment by "simple" force of will.  Nearest I can 
> tell, it would have to be Telekinesis, Fully Indirect, 
> Invisible (+3/4, not mental group) at a minimum.  So 
> a starting character can never manage more than around a 
> 16 STR.  To really make it mental should(?) imply, No Range 
> Mod and make a top strength around 13.  Is mental TK really 
> that unbalanced by nature? 
 
Well if you want it to have a Telekiness that is all mental, 
i.e. based on ecv according to "The Ultimate Mentalist" book,  
you should buy the power Psychokinesis.  The book tell on using and 
buying this power it is the same cost. It is still visible. 
 
end of line..... 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:04:59 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 07:18 PM 3/30/1998 -0500, Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
>>  We (in my group) have traditionally allowed the Block to be rolled only 
>>after the attacker makes their roll. And if the attacker misses, no need ot 
>>make a Block roll (though you are still considered to able using your action 
>>to "Block"). 
> 
>Personally, I wouldn't play it that way.  You don't get to wait 
>until the bad guy punches you in the face to decide that you  
>want to stop him from doing it.  As soon as the attacker declares 
>the strike, the target must declare the block -- and once he does, 
>he's committed. 
 
   I don't think it has to do with deciding to Block; it has to do with 
deciding whether or not you need to find out whether the Block was 
successful.  If the attacker misses, then it doesn't matter whether the 
Block connects or not; the defender still doesn't take any damage. 
   Of course, a Damage Shield could still make a difference on this.... 
 
>To answer the original question (to wit: difference between Dodge 
>and Block), here's another angle:  With a Dodge, you continue  
>dodging until your next action phase, maintaining a constant DCV. 
>The Block allows you to keep blocking, but at a minus with every 
>subsequent attempt.  (Your blocking arm can be in only so many  
>places at once. 
 
   That's a good point, and (I believe) an oft-forgotten rule. 
 
>One more note:  I don't know how the rest of you play it, but 
>my understanding is that the Dodge does NOT involve movement. 
>If you want to move, you Dive for Cover. 
 
   I don't quite understand the comment that was made on this either.... 
--- 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:42:21 -0600 (CST) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 30 Mar 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> >>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
> > 
> >BG>    The thing is, there's been a lot more done with (as opposed to 
> >BG> against) the sense of touch in all media.  At least one rendition of 
> >BG> Daredevil has been able to read text with his fingertips. 
> > 
> >An extra point of "literacy" for the alphabet for a sighted person, free 
> >for a blind person (balanced by the loss of the 1 point literacy for the 
> >conventional written language form). 
>  
>    In other words no points -- for something this unusual?  Discriminatory 
> or Microscopic Touch, at the very least. 
 
Maybe there's some confusion: Rat, he's not talking about the ability to 
read Braille.  Your method works just fine for that.  Daredevil (at 
least some versions) can run his fingers over a regular book or newspaper 
and 'read' it that way from the ridges the ink has made.  (One version 
that seemed a bit silly to me was able to 'read' a computer screen in this 
way.) 
 
I'd say Discrminatory Touch (combined with a whole /heap/ of perception 
bonus levels for all senses except sight) 
  
> >BG> Some martial artists are able to sense their surroundings by the feel 
> >BG> of air movements around them. 
> > 
> >Spatial Awareness. 
>  
>    Of what Sense Group? 
 
Isn't SA technically an 'unusual sense'? DD has sonar, but I'd call the 
'feeling wind currents' thing of the Touch sense, definitely.  (Note: some 
blind people, IIRC, also have this ability...I've heard it referred to as 
'facial vision' because they usually sense/perceive it on their cheeks.) 
  
J 
 
"One equal temper of heroic hearts,              http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will              jeffj@io.com 
 To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."    - Tennyson, "Ulysses" 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:46:35 -0600 (CST) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Telekinesis Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> > So, how does everyone represent your basic, garden variety 
> > psionic telekinesis.  The common ability to manipulate 
> > the environment by "simple" force of will.  Nearest I can 
> > tell, it would have to be Telekinesis, Fully Indirect, 
 
Er, isn't Telekinesis by definition Fully Indirect anyway?  I think just 
the Invisible Power Effects would cover what you wanted. 
 
"One equal temper of heroic hearts,              http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will              jeffj@io.com 
 To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."    - Tennyson, "Ulysses" 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:08:58 -0800 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 08:42 PM 3/30/1998 -0600, Sakura wrote: 
>Maybe there's some confusion: Rat, he's not talking about the ability to 
>read Braille.  Your method works just fine for that.  Daredevil (at 
>least some versions) can run his fingers over a regular book or newspaper 
>and 'read' it that way from the ridges the ink has made.  (One version 
>that seemed a bit silly to me was able to 'read' a computer screen in this 
>way.) 
 
   It's not necessarily so silly; the areas where there is light may be 
marginally warmer than where there is not.  Certainly the difference would 
be imperceptible to the hand of a normal human, but we're not talking about 
a normal human here. 
 
>I'd say Discrminatory Touch (combined with a whole /heap/ of perception 
>bonus levels for all senses except sight) 
 
   To an extent, I'd say that Touch is already discriminatory; I'd call 
this Microscopic Touch. 
  
>> >BG> Some martial artists are able to sense their surroundings by the feel 
>> >BG> of air movements around them. 
>> > 
>> >Spatial Awareness. 
>>  
>>    Of what Sense Group? 
> 
>Isn't SA technically an 'unusual sense'? DD has sonar, but I'd call the 
>'feeling wind currents' thing of the Touch sense, definitely.  (Note: some 
>blind people, IIRC, also have this ability...I've heard it referred to as 
>'facial vision' because they usually sense/perceive it on their cheeks.) 
 
   At its base form, SA is a part of the Unusual Sense Group.  However, I 
have a hard time with the idea of saying that SA and the other 
manifestations of Touch are not a part of the Touch Sense Group because 
there is no Touch Sense Group, and then saying that there is no Touch Sense 
Group because there are no Senses to go into it.  :-] 
--- 
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   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:11:20 -0800 
To: vances@sympatico.ca, champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Team Tactics 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 08:33 PM 3/31/1998 -500, Vance Scott wrote: 
>Finally in the words of General Thomas J. "Stonewall" Jackson,  
>"Mystify, Mislead, and Surprise!" 
 
   Ah, yes... the Three M's of Military Science!  ;-] 
--- 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:12:10 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
>    4. Pain.  Flash vs this, and the character doesn't take STUN from 
> injuries -- at least, not right away.  When the Flash wears off, the 
> character takes all STUN that got through his defenses as though they were 
> a Coordinated attack. 
 
I disagree that STUN is an issue of pain, it is also an issue of  
transient disorganization of bodily functions: impact of the brain on the  
inside of the skull, having the wind knocked out of you, and so on, are  
all STUN effects, IMHO, and would not be reduced by anesthaesia. 
 
I have run a similar effect in an FRP campaign, not using Hero, and ruled  
that the main effect is to deny the character knowledge of the *amount*  
of damage taken, until the damage has a game effect.  In Hero, I would  
hold as follows: 
 
	A character without pain sense does not feel BODY or STUN taken, 
	and the GM should keep totals secret from the affected player. 
	Certain special effects (such as a Neural Pain Ray) may not 
	affect characters without pain sense, but ordinary attacks will 
	have full effect.  It is possible for such a character to be 
	knocked out or die and "not feel a thing!" 
 
	When a character without pain sense is stunned, the GM will 
	secretly roll a CON characteristic roll.  If the roll succeeds, 
	the effects are postponed by one phase for each pip by which the 
	roll succeeds, or one phase if the roll is made exactly.  The 
	player will not know if or when the stunning will take effect. 
	If the character attempts to recover (except post-segment-12) or 
	if the character is stunned while the effects of stunning are  
	delayed, the stunning takes effect immediately. 
 
I think, on the whole, that this is a negative effect, reasonably  
balanced, not overly complex, and reasonably interesting. 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-6,8-11,21-23 
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts) 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:17:06 EST 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>>    In other words no points -- for something this unusual?  
Discriminatory 
>> or Microscopic Touch, at the very least. 
> 
>Maybe there's some confusion: Rat, he's not talking about the ability to 
>read Braille.  Your method works just fine for that.  Daredevil (at 
>least some versions) can run his fingers over a regular book or  
>newspaper and 'read' it that way from the ridges the ink has made.  (One 
version 
>that seemed a bit silly to me was able to 'read' a computer screen in  
>this way.) 
 
I can usually tell if I'm reading a photocopied document by running my 
fingers across the page -- if it's a photocopy, the text feels bumpy 
(because the toner is sitting on top of the paper).  I can't  _read_ the 
text that way, but then I'm not Daredevil either :) .  I'd call this 
Discriminatory Touch myself.  Now, "reading" a computer screen by sensing 
temperature differences between the displayed text and the unlit 
background screen (I think that was the SFX Marvel used) -- I could see 
calling that Microscopic Touch.  (And why didn't DD just get a 
Jaws-equipped computer instead of trying to learn how to read a computer 
screen by touch?) 
 
Leah 
 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: New "Ultimate" Book Ideas! 
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts) 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:17:06 EST 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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>   (Am I the only one getting file attachments with all of Keith's  
>posts?) 
 
Nope, I'm getting them too. 
 
>>Ultimate Alien: Stuff for generating aliens, 
>>their worlds, technology, powers, etc. 
>>Useful in everything from Champions to 
>>Space and even "real-word" (i.e.. X-Files) 
>>genres! 
> 
>   This isn't really an Ultimate book candidate, since Aliens are an 
origin 
>type rather than a character archetype.  
 
However, a reference on designing nonhuman races could be useful.  I've 
tried building an alien hero (in my defence, I should say she was the 
second character I ever built), and looking back at her character sheet I 
have to admit I screwed up. 
 
It might not be long enough for an Ultimate book, but it might work as a 
chapter in the Superhero Genre Book. 
 
Leah 
 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:44:38 -0500 
Subject: Re: Telekinesis Questions 
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From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David W Toomey) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Mon, 30 Mar 98 17:40:40 -0500 John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
writes: 
>OK, 
> 
>So, how does everyone represent your basic, garden variety 
>psionic telekinesis.  The common ability to manipulate  
>the environment by "simple" force of will.  Nearest I can 
>tell, it would have to be Telekinesis, Fully Indirect,  
>Invisible (+3/4, not mental group) at a minimum.   
 
Everybody I've ever gamed with has assumed that Indirect was already 
part of the cost of TK.  The rules (BBB) don't say either way, though... 
 
>On a similar topic, TK w/o Fine manipulation still allows 
>fine work on a 9+(TK points/5).  
 
***BZZT***   Sorry, wrong answer!   
 
If you buy Fine Manipulation, you get that 9+(TK/5) roll.  Otherwise, 
nothing. 
 
 
David W Toomey 
dwtoomey@juno.com 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:57:17 -0800 
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com> 
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com 
Organization: None 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
CC: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: New "Ultimate" Book Ideas! 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> At 07:44 AM 3/30/1998 -0600, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA wrote: 
> 
>    (Am I the only one getting file attachments with all of Keith's posts?) 
> 
> >Ultimate Alien: Stuff for generating aliens, 
> >their worlds, technology, powers, etc. 
> >Useful in everything from Champions to 
> >Space and even "real-word" (i.e.. X-Files) 
> >genres! 
> 
>    This isn't really an Ultimate book candidate, since Aliens are an origin 
> type rather than a character archetype.  However, books covering some of 
> the various superhero origin types in greater detail than the respective 
> Enemies books from the ICE days would be nice. 
> 
 
Nah, I'm getting attachments too. 
 
I do think that an Aliens Book of some kind would be helpful. Somthing like 
Aliens Ulimited, which told ya how to make one of them that alien buggers, gave 
examples of alien races and technoligy then gave campaign notes for the races 
included. While I have for the most part found HU very limiting and not really 
compatable with rifts or Palladium RPG, I thought that AU did a good job on its 
subject matter. 
 
8hours a day and my kreativity is kaput 
Chad ..... 
 
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Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:18:02 -0600 (CST) 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Subject: Real Champions! (off topic) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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The University Of Kentucky is the 1998 NCAA Basketball Champions!!! 
 
GO BIG BLUE... 
 
Hey, this was Champions related :-) 
 
Michael 
Rising Force Publications 
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist recently updated web site... 
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
"You have never lived until you have almost died.  
And for those who fight for it, 
life has a flavor the protected never know"  
- anonymous 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "S" == Sakura <jeffj@io.com> writes: 
 
S> I'd say Discrminatory Touch (combined with a whole /heap/ of perception 
S> bonus levels for all senses except sight) 
 
Yep, misunderstanding on my part.  But I would not buy it as Discriminatory 
Touch, I would "buy" it as "Physical Limitation: Blind, Slight, Infrequent" 
or up to "Moderate, Frequent", depending on how much game time he spends in 
his secret identity. 
 
I think this kind of thing should fall under GM's fiat as a limited subset 
of "everyman" abilities.  If a character is missing a "normal" sense, and 
his other senses are developed or augmented to a degree that can equal (but 
not exceed) the capabilities of that missing sense, give it to the 
character as a freebie. 
 
Example: A "starting" Daredevil has no normal vision.  His highly developed 
other senses in conjunction with his sonar have effects almost equivalent 
to what a normally sighed person can sense.  He gets the sonar for free (he 
does not have to spend points for it), and he gets the aforementioned 
physical limitation because he still cannot perceive colors, nor can he 
read printed material at range.  The frequency and severity should be 
adjusted depending on how frequently he is without devices to augment the 
senses he has.  And if he wants to acquire senses that exceed the limits of 
normal senses, then he must pay points for them. 
 
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--  
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 01:39:46 -0500 
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Telekinesis Questions 
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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> a starting character can never manage more than around a  
> 16 STR.  To really make it mental should(?) imply, No Range 
> Mod and make a top strength around 13.  Is mental TK really 
> that unbalanced by nature? 
 
I think it's interesting to note that virtually every other game system 
I've ever read DOES treat TK at that level as very powerful. At 13 STR, the 
character can manipulate about 150 kg (over 300 lbs), which is far more 
than most game systems that I've seen will allow characters to use. Of 
course, I'm primarily thinking of sci-fi games here -- the superhero genre 
tends towards higher capacity in general. 
 
Still, I think a character with invisible telekinesis can create a lot of 
havoc, even at a low strength level. I had an NPC in my game called the 
Prankster who had, among other things, Fully Invisible TK at a whopping 10 
STR. He drove the heroes crazy! 
 
> On a similar topic, TK w/o Fine manipulation still allows 
> fine work on a 9+(TK points/5).  Does this mean that at  
> 45 points Fine Manipulation is a free addition? 
 
Read that again. Without buying the Fine Work option, fine manipulation is 
impossible, regardless of active points. That roll is your chance of 
success if you DO buy the option. 
 
>  Also, every 
> other mention of points in the powers refer to Active Points, 
> does TK really break the mold and mean Character Points? 
 
I imagine that's a typo. I think they probably meant active points. 
 
Jeff Reid 
 
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From: CptPatriot <CptPatriot@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 01:43:50 EST 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: AE + Explosion 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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There are examples of this, in the "Atlantis" book, where they combine the 
effects of different area effects to more accurately show how the attack 
should affect others. 
 
In this book, the combined AEs changed the shape of the area affected, it 
didn't allow for multiple hits. 
 
If you really want multiple hit from the same attack, try using Autofire w/ AE 
or Explosion, the potential overlapping can be fun to witness. 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 01:59:30 -0500 
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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> Example: A "starting" Daredevil has no normal vision.  His highly 
developed 
> other senses in conjunction with his sonar have effects almost equivalent 
> to what a normally sighed person can sense.  He gets the sonar for free 
(he 
> does not have to spend points for it), and he gets the aforementioned 
> physical limitation because he still cannot perceive colors, nor can he 
> read printed material at range. 
 
While I agree that the Phys Lim "Blind" would be worth fewer points to a 
character with a compensatory sense, I think you're overlooking the ability 
to spot invisible targets, which Daredevil definitely can, so I would under 
no circumstances give this ability for free.  
 
Interestingly, the "Blind" limitation, combined with a compensatory 
Radar/Sonar/Spatial Awareness, creates an interesting effect in that the 
character not only perceives invisible characters, he is unable to tell the 
difference between a visible character and an invisible one. This was 
illustrated in an issue of the Fantastic Four several years ago. The 
Invisible Woman had been corrupted by the Hate Monger and was fighting her 
teammates when Daredevil happened along. Sue Richards, now calling herself 
Malice, was surrounded by her invisible force field (ok, Force WALL), and 
DD wondered aloud why the FF was fighting an amorphous blob! 
 
But I digress... 
 
Jeff Reid 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 01:05:45 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
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y 
> BG> Some martial artists are able to sense their surroundings by the feel 
> BG> of air movements around them. 
> 
> Spatial Awareness. 
> 
> BG> Occasionally "nature men" in Westerns (natives, mountain men, trackers, 
> BG> etc.) can use the feel of the ground to tell when horses or other 
> BG> beasts are approaching (or making some other movement) without being 
> BG> able to see the herd in question. 
> 
> Spatial Awareness or Clairsentience. 
 
	However, all of the above would be affected by Darkness Vs or a 
Flash Vs the touch sense group.  That is the problem being related. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 01:13:37 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret 
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> >> > Currently on Parole. 
> >> > Member of lower social class. 
> >> > Slave. 
> >> > Declared Bankruptcy. 
> >> > Debt of honor. 
> 
> Exactly how do these limit the player if they are unknown? 
> 
> I don't see how they would count for more than background, myself... 
 
	Like any disad, they don't limit the player unless the GM brings 
them into play.  But how could you not think being a slave is a 
disadvantage.  Or oweing an Honor Debt that may carry heavy penalties if 
ignored. 
 
> >	Possibly.  Though I can think of a few instances in other 
> >genres. 
> >MiB aliens.  Darth Vader.  The Lone Ranger. 
> > 
> DARTH VADER?????   "Let me take off my helmet, and nobody will 
> recognize me..." 
> 
> I could see Public ID, perhaps, but Secret?? 
 
	Who knew he was Anakin Skywalker, hero of the republic?  It's 
marginal, simply because he has little that he is protecting.  Lea would 
be a better example. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 01:16:43 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Telekinesis Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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> Everybody I've ever gamed with has assumed that Indirect was already\ 
> part of the cost of TK.  The rules (BBB) don't say either way, though... 
 
	And they don't say that EB is direct or indirect one way or the 
other either, however, assuming that it is indirect in either case is like 
saying, "well, dad didn't say I _couldn't_ borrow his classic '67 vette." 
 
> >On a similar topic, TK w/o Fine manipulation still allows 
> >fine work on a 9+(TK points/5). 
> 
> ***BZZT***   Sorry, wrong answer! 
> 
> If you buy Fine Manipulation, you get that 9+(TK/5) roll.  Otherwise, 
> nothing. 
 
	Right. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 01:18:24 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
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> S> I'd say Discrminatory Touch (combined with a whole /heap/ of perception 
> S> bonus levels for all senses except sight) 
> 
> Yep, misunderstanding on my part.  But I would not buy it as Discriminatory 
> Touch, I would "buy" it as "Physical Limitation: Blind, Slight, Infrequent" 
> or up to "Moderate, Frequent", depending on how much game time he spends in 
> his secret identity. 
 
	Hurry, hurry, hurry! 
 
	Step right up! 
 
	See the Stainless Steel Rat attempt to rationalize something the 
Hero Rules don't currently handle with spurious logic and assumtions. 
 
	Don't miss it, folks. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 01:25:30 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret 
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> I'm going to bite on this. I suggest that we need to look more deeply 
> at the 'Why'. A desert character who cannot swim because he's never 
> encountered a suitable body of water simply sells back his swimming. 
> When he gets the opportunity, he can buy off that disad. Likewise, a 
> character who can't drive because she's never been taught similarly 
> sells back her TF; but if she couldn't drive because she had a problem 
> with hand-eye coordination (for example), then that would be a Phys 
> Lim, and would have other in-game effects. Similarly, a character who 
> is able to drive, but not legally so (e.g. no license) is not able to 
> buy back points or get a Limitation. 
 
	The reasons really don't matter.  And, as I've already pointed 
out, there is no way to "buy back" Everyman Skills.  They are either 
accepted or declined. 
 
	Now, for anyone that doesn't have Everymans that are particularly 
key to a campaign is eligible for a disadvantage.  However, that 
disadvantage will need to be bought off before the skill can be purchased. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <mlnunn@mail.blue.net> 
From: "Michael Nunn" <mlnunn@bnllc2.blue.net> 
Organization:  Rising Force Publications 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Date:          Tue, 31 Mar 1998 08:26:23 +0000 
Subject:       Re: Opening Day 
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PLAY BALL!!! 
So just what is the DCV of a 90 mph fastball? 
 
Or the OCV of 300 hitter? 
 
Michael 
 
 
 
"Herozine" Rising Force Publications "SUPER" RPG 'zine, 
check out our web site at:    
http://users.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 07:20:59 -0600 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net> 
Subject: Re: Telekinesis Questions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 01:16 AM 3/31/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>> Everybody I've ever gamed with has assumed that Indirect was already\ 
>> part of the cost of TK.  The rules (BBB) don't say either way, though... 
> 
>	And they don't say that EB is direct or indirect one way or the 
>other either, however, assuming that it is indirect in either case is like 
>saying, "well, dad didn't say I _couldn't_ borrow his classic '67 vette." 
 
Yes, but TK is not a flat attack power like EB. It seems to function more 
like Clairsentience does for senses, creating a hypothetical "you" somewhere 
who can exert STR in all the usual fashions (grabbing, throwing, punching, 
lifting, etc.). If this is an accurate description (a very big "if", but 
also a very reasonable one), then the question of Indirect becomes somewhat 
moot, since "towards" and "away" are now measured from the "secondary 
you-point", which you can shuffle around however you wish. 
 
I'd call this another one for the Master Ambiguity File. 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 08:42:25 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Opening Day 
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PLAY BALL!!! 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:03:46 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> 
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 06:04 PM 3/30/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>>  We (in my group) have traditionally allowed the Block to be rolled only 
>>>after the attacker makes their roll. And if the attacker misses, no need ot 
>>>make a Block roll (though you are still considered to able using your 
action 
>>>to "Block"). 
>> 
>>Personally, I wouldn't play it that way.  You don't get to wait 
>>until the bad guy punches you in the face to decide that you  
>>want to stop him from doing it.  
> 
>   I don't think it has to do with deciding to Block; it has to do with 
>deciding whether or not you need to find out whether the Block was 
>successful.  If the attacker misses, then it doesn't matter whether the 
>Block connects or not; the defender still doesn't take any damage. 
 
True -- if the strike misses, it's "no harm, no foul".  But the 
defending character has already used his action to block and does 
not get to choose another action simply because the attack missed. 
I don't know if you assumed that or not, but it was not clear in 
the original post. 
 
 
 
>>One more note:  I don't know how the rest of you play it, but 
>>my understanding is that the Dodge does NOT involve movement. 
>>If you want to move, you Dive for Cover. 
> 
>   I don't quite understand the comment that was made on this either.... 
 
Sorry -- let me make that a little more clear:  Somebody mentioned 
movement during the Dodge.  The Dodge manuever does not allow you  
to change hexes (at least in our group).  One dodges in place,  
shucking and jiving around the hex, but not leaving it.  If you 
want to move to another hex, i.e. to avoid an area effect attack, 
you make a dive for cover.  To allow the dodging character to move 
to another hex is to allow a huge DCV bonus PLUS a movement power. 
 
======================  ================================================= 
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed  
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is  
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead 
======================  ================================================= 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 06:40:51 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: AE + Explosion 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 01:43 AM 3/31/1998 EST, CptPatriot wrote: 
>There are examples of this, in the "Atlantis" book, where they combine the 
>effects of different area effects to more accurately show how the attack 
>should affect others. 
> 
>In this book, the combined AEs changed the shape of the area affected, it 
>didn't allow for multiple hits. 
 
   How's this?  I was startled to see this, and went to check through the 
Atlantis book to see if you were right; I certainly didn't remember any 
such constructs, or any other stretching of the rules for that matter. 
Sure enough, after perusing all of the characters, creatures, vehicles, 
devices, and spells, not one of them had any multiple application of AE, 
nor simultaneous application of AE and Explosion. 
 
>If you really want multiple hit from the same attack, try using Autofire 
w/ AE 
>or Explosion, the potential overlapping can be fun to witness. 
 
   I tend to agree here. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 06:46:14 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 09:03 AM 3/31/1998 -0500, Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
>At 06:04 PM 3/30/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>>>  We (in my group) have traditionally allowed the Block to be rolled only 
>>>>after the attacker makes their roll. And if the attacker misses, no 
need ot 
>>>>make a Block roll (though you are still considered to able using your 
action 
>>>>to "Block"). 
>>> 
>>>Personally, I wouldn't play it that way.  You don't get to wait 
>>>until the bad guy punches you in the face to decide that you  
>>>want to stop him from doing it.  
>> 
>>   I don't think it has to do with deciding to Block; it has to do with 
>>deciding whether or not you need to find out whether the Block was 
>>successful.  If the attacker misses, then it doesn't matter whether the 
>>Block connects or not; the defender still doesn't take any damage. 
> 
>True -- if the strike misses, it's "no harm, no foul".  But the 
>defending character has already used his action to block and does 
>not get to choose another action simply because the attack missed. 
>I don't know if you assumed that or not, but it was not clear in 
>the original post. 
 
   See the parenthetical remark at the end of that paragraph.  It's a 
little scrambled, but still fairly clear. 
 
>>>One more note:  I don't know how the rest of you play it, but 
>>>my understanding is that the Dodge does NOT involve movement. 
>>>If you want to move, you Dive for Cover. 
>> 
>>   I don't quite understand the comment that was made on this either.... 
> 
>Sorry -- let me make that a little more clear:  Somebody mentioned 
>movement during the Dodge.  The Dodge manuever does not allow you  
>to change hexes (at least in our group).  One dodges in place,  
>shucking and jiving around the hex, but not leaving it.  If you 
>want to move to another hex, i.e. to avoid an area effect attack, 
>you make a dive for cover.  To allow the dodging character to move 
>to another hex is to allow a huge DCV bonus PLUS a movement power. 
 
   Your comment, I understood.  It was the other comment, the one you were 
responding to, that I was having trouble with. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: New "Ultimate" Book Ideas! 
To: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts) 
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 06:48:15 -0800 (PST) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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> >>Ultimate Alien: Stuff for generating aliens, 
> >>their worlds, technology, powers, etc. 
> >>Useful in everything from Champions to 
> >>Space and even "real-word" (i.e.. X-Files) 
> >>genres! 
>  
> However, a reference on designing nonhuman races could be useful.  I've 
> tried building an alien hero (in my defence, I should say she was the 
> second character I ever built), and looking back at her character sheet I 
> have to admit I screwed up. 
 
	GURPS Aliens proved the concept was viable for 'serious' sci fi. I can 
see the viability of suh a book for Hero, one that also shows silly aliens and 
super hero aliens. 
 
Rook ?U ?k 1b  'no giga pets were harmed in the production of this message'. 
 __ 
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html	Super Hero Links 
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/			Super Hero Roleplay 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 06:53:07 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: New "Ultimate" Book Ideas! 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 11:17 PM 3/30/1998 EST, Leah L Watts wrote: 
>>>Ultimate Alien: Stuff for generating aliens, 
>>>their worlds, technology, powers, etc. 
>>>Useful in everything from Champions to 
>>>Space and even "real-word" (i.e.. X-Files) 
>>>genres! 
>> 
>>   This isn't really an Ultimate book candidate, since Aliens are an origin 
>>type rather than a character archetype.  
> 
>However, a reference on designing nonhuman races could be useful.  I've 
>tried building an alien hero (in my defence, I should say she was the 
>second character I ever built), and looking back at her character sheet I 
>have to admit I screwed up. 
> 
>It might not be long enough for an Ultimate book, but it might work as a 
>chapter in the Superhero Genre Book. 
 
   A full book on aliens, including several sample aliens and alien races 
as well as guidelines on how to build alien races, would be practical IMO. 
It just don't see it as a viable candidate for the Ultimate series, because 
those cover character archetypes. 
   I wouldn't just stick it in as a chapter in the Superhero genre book, 
since the topic is at least as applicable to most styles of 
science-fiction, and could be applicable to other genres as well (like 
interdimensional travelers in certain fantasy tales -- and if you don't 
know what I'm referring to here, you're definitely Myth-ing something!). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 07:00:51 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Real Champions! (off topic) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 11:18 PM 3/30/1998 -0600, Michael Nunn wrote: 
>The University Of Kentucky is the 1998 NCAA Basketball Champions!!! 
> 
>GO BIG BLUE... 
> 
>Hey, this was Champions related :-) 
 
   Anyone wanna do Sports Hero? 
   It's a book I've been wanting since 1986, but nobody's gone ahead to 
write the book on how to play sports in the Hero System.  It would be a 
difficult book to do, since Hero doesn't lend itself easily to athletic 
competition, so the author would have to be much more of a sports nut than 
myself.  It would have to include the game rules for various team and 
individual sports (baseball, basketball, football [American], hockey, 
soccer [that's the word we use for "real" football], and track & field, at 
the least) as well as guidelines on how to simulate play using the Hero 
system. 
   Someone once stated that sports competitions should be represented with 
just competing Professional Skill Rolls; whichever team makes their 
combined PS Rolls by the most wins the game.  That doesn't tell much of a 
story, though.... 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-10,12-16 
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts) 
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:01:49 EST 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>>> Very few FH characters take Secret ID, after all... 
> 
>	Possibly.  Though I can think of a few instances in other  
>>genres. 
>>MiB aliens.  Darth Vader.  The Lone Ranger. 
>> 
 
>DARTH VADER?????   "Let me take off my helmet, and nobody will 
>recognize me..." 
 
"...because my Life Support was bought with the Focus limitation and I'll 
be dead...." 
 
The Lone Ranger is a good example, though. 
 
Leah 
 
_____________________________________________________________________ 
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. 
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com 
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:02:09 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Reply-To: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
To: Champions Discussion List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
 
> >   I don't think it has to do with deciding to Block; it has to do with 
> >deciding whether or not you need to find out whether the Block was 
> >successful.  If the attacker misses, then it doesn't matter whether the 
> >Block connects or not; the defender still doesn't take any damage. 
> 
> True -- if the strike misses, it's "no harm, no foul".  But the 
> defending character has already used his action to block and does 
> not get to choose another action simply because the attack missed. 
> I don't know if you assumed that or not, but it was not clear in 
> the original post. 
 
Not true! If the block misses, you can no longer block until your next 
action... every block should be rolled, *before* the roll to hit is made. 
 
> Sorry -- let me make that a little more clear:  Somebody mentioned 
> movement during the Dodge.  The Dodge manuever does not allow you  
> to change hexes (at least in our group).  One dodges in place,  
> shucking and jiving around the hex, but not leaving it.  If you 
> want to move to another hex, i.e. to avoid an area effect attack, 
> you make a dive for cover.  To allow the dodging character to move 
> to another hex is to allow a huge DCV bonus PLUS a movement power. 
 
By the way, Champions combat should be interpreted in most cases as 
simultaneous action. It's a common misundersanding that because it has a 
turn-based combat system, that combatants remain stationary in their hex 
while others get to act. Remember, your action does *not* get carried out 
instantaneously, even though it's resolved when you declare it. Your 
action will play out over the length of your phase. Maybe I'll post a more 
detailed essay on the subject if I can dig it up from my old campaign 
notes.  
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 07:11:28 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 07:23 AM 3/31/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
>Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
>Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret 
>> >MiB aliens.  Darth Vader.  The Lone Ranger. 
>> > 
>> DARTH VADER?????   "Let me take off my helmet, and nobody will 
>> recognize me..." 
>> 
>> I could see Public ID, perhaps, but Secret?? 
> 
> Who knew he was Anakin Skywalker, hero of the republic?  It's 
>marginal, simply because he has little that he is protecting.  Lea would 
>be a better example. 
 
   Lea Thompson??? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:47:56 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
To: Champions Discussion List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: AE + Explosion 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> >If you really want multiple hit from the same attack, try using Autofire 
> w/ AE 
> >or Explosion, the potential overlapping can be fun to witness. 
>    I tend to agree here. 
 
Just don't forget the extra +1 advantage required by autofire. 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:48:38 -0500 
To: Champions Discussion List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> 
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 09:02 AM 3/31/98 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote: 
>Not true! If the block misses, you can no longer block until your next 
>action... every block should be rolled, *before* the roll to hit is made. 
 
I stand corrected.  With multiple attackers, you would have  
to do it that way.  In a one-on-one combat, you could shave  
off a little time by ignoring the roll. 
  
======================  ================================================= 
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed  
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is  
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead 
======================  ================================================= 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:01:02 -0500 
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us> 
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 07:23 AM 3/31/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
>> >MiB aliens.  Darth Vader.  The Lone Ranger. 
>> > 
>> DARTH VADER?????   "Let me take off my helmet, and nobody will 
>> recognize me..." 
>> 
>> I could see Public ID, perhaps, but Secret?? 
> 
> Who knew he was Anakin Skywalker, hero of the republic?  It's 
>marginal, simply because he has little that he is protecting.  Lea would 
>be a better example. 
 
I agree Leia is a better example. I don't think I'd give Vader a  
Secret ID - it's more like he simply changed his name. Who knew?  
The Emperor, Yoda, and Ben at the very least, and probably  
Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru too. While many others probably didn't  
know, they probably had never heard of Anakin Skywalker either,  
and had no particular reason to care what Darth Vader's previous  
name was. Mohammed Ali doesn't have Secret ID: Cassius Clay. 
 
Here are a few more Secret ID's in other genres: 
 
The Scarlet Pimpernel 
The Man in the Iron Mask (maybe) 
The Silent Knight (DC Comics medieval hero) 
The Shadow 
Clint Eastwood in Hang 'Em High 
Martin Guerre? 
"Control" on Babylon 5 
Arguably, Kosh (or any Vorlon) on B5 - though "Secret" would be better 
Depending on the story, Sir Lancelot, who used to wander anonymously, 
even using a different Coat of Arms, so that people would be  
willing to fight him. 
 
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:20:33 EST 
To: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org, champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  Hero & GRG settings 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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In a message dated 3/30/98 2:58:15 PM, bswarren@flash.net wrote: 
 
<<I would like know if the two campaigns (C:TNM and SA:COH) will be mutually 
 
exclusive. I, like many other Hero fans have converted C:TMN into 4E. I 
 
really like the setting. I know that the two will not intrinsically work 
 
together but since many of us will be using both, I hope that some thought 
 
has gone into allowing them to coexist. Hopefully we will not be forced to 
 
chose between settings, that would hurt sales of both products. 
 
>> 
 
Like any of our other products, you can take what you like and use it. There's 
no reason why these books would be mutually exclusive; they are two different 
California metro areas. Now, certainly some of the timeline info presented in 
either universe would need to be reconciled, but that's easy enough to do. 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games  
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:47:54 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
To: Champions Discussion List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
 
> At 09:02 AM 3/31/98 -0600, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote: 
> >Not true! If the block misses, you can no longer block until your next 
> >action... every block should be rolled, *before* the roll to hit is made. 
 
> I stand corrected.  With multiple attackers, you would have  
> to do it that way.  In a one-on-one combat, you could shave  
> off a little time by ignoring the roll. 
 
Either way, there is 1 or 2 rolls. If the block is successful, you needn't 
roll to see if the attacker hit. I think it's a good idea to get in the 
habit of rolling the block first to avoid confusion. 
 
Even in one-on-one combat, one attacker might get two or more attacks 
against a single block maneuver due to a higher speed or a held action. 
This happens regularly during swashbuckling swordfights in our Fantasy 
Hero campaign... waiting for the chance to throw off your opponent's 
parrying with a quick flourish. 
 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:58:09 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions Discussion List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> >Not true! If the block misses, you can no longer block until your next 
> >action... every block should be rolled, *before* the roll to hit is made. 
> 
> I stand corrected.  With multiple attackers, you would have 
> to do it that way.  In a one-on-one combat, you could shave 
> off a little time by ignoring the roll. 
 
	True.  I'd forgotten about the multiple attackers thing as well. 
Still, it really doesn't matter if the block roll is rolled before the 
attack roll or vice versa, as long as it is rolled or counted as rolled. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Testing! 
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:28:31 -0600 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
OK, ye 'ol Puma make stab at fixing email problem! Say if it works! 
 
Now we return to our regularly scheduled topic... 
 
	Are there any other Champions gamers out there that also like 
Japanese Animation? I'd really like some Champions supplements to 
cover anime. Imagine your heroes meeting Ryoko from Tenchi Muyo! ^_^; 
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
    "No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!" - Joan of 
Arc's .sig 
	          Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:42:45 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com> 
Subject: Re: Testing! 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:28 AM 3/31/98 -0600, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA wrote: 
>OK, ye 'ol Puma make stab at fixing email problem! Say if it works! 
> 
>Now we return to our regularly scheduled topic... 
> 
>	Are there any other Champions gamers out there that also like 
>Japanese Animation? I'd really like some Champions supplements to 
>cover anime. Imagine your heroes meeting Ryoko from Tenchi Muyo! ^_^; 
 
There certainly are. :) 
 
Check out Michael Surbrook's pages for a great place to start. His Kazei 
Five material is anime inspired cyber-punkish RP, and he also has a great 
stuff for RP in the world of Silent Mobius and Dragonball Z. 
 
http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/anime.html 
 
-Nic 
 
                +-------------------------------------------------+ 
                |               naneiden@iswest.com               | 
                |         http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/        | 
                |     "Kame...hame..ha!" - Goku, Gohan & Goten    | 
                +-------------------------------------------------+ 
 
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From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Point Bases 
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:53:09 -0600 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
What point bases do you assorted GMs out there use in your games? 
Puma used between 350 and 600 (usually use ~450) with ~150 in dissads 
so total characters are 500 to 750 (~600 typical). All input welcome! 
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
    "No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!" - Joan of 
Arc's .sig 
	          Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:56:21 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com> 
Subject: Re: Point Bases 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:53 AM 3/31/98 -0600, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA wrote: 
>What point bases do you assorted GMs out there use in your games? 
>Puma used between 350 and 600 (usually use ~450) with ~150 in dissads 
>so total characters are 500 to 750 (~600 typical). All input welcome! 
> 
 
I use 200 pt base with up to 150 in disads. A copy of the hand-out I give 
players in my game is viewable here: 
http://www.iswest.net/~naneiden/rpg/ccnotes.html 
 
-Nic 
 
      +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ 
      |                        naneiden@iswest.com                         | 
      |               Justice, Like Lightning, Thunderbolts!               | 
      |         http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/thunder.html        | 
      |                         Costumed Heroines                          | 
      |          http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/index.html         | 
      +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:00:47 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: New Ultimate Books! (not!) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
(I posted this a few months back, but it deserves a repost) 
 
The Top 'n' Ultimate Books you WON'T be seeing in the near future... 
 
The Ultimate Annoying Kid Sidekick 
The Ultimate Trendoid (featuring skateboard heroes, CB heroes, rollerblade 
heroes, disco heroes) 
The Ultimate Gnomes&Halflings Handbook 
The Ultimate Strapless Evening Gown Wearing Heroine 
The Ultimate Shambling Mockery Of A Man 
The Ultimate Duck Trapped In A World He Never Made 
The Ultimate Powergamer (featuring tips on buying 'missing one hand' per 
finger) 
The Ultimate DNPC (featuring 'heart attack' rules and the 'kidnap prone' 
disadvantage) 
 
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net> 
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:25:52 +0000 
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
I would also add one thing I think some others missed re Blocking.   
If a character sucessfully blocks, he automatically goes first in his  
next action Phase.  This has its quirks if the opponents are not the  
same Speed, but adds to the effectiveness of the manuever over a  
Dodge. 
 
Amy 
 
---------------- 
Theala Sildorian 
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html 
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page! 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 31 Mar 1998 13:31:38 -0500 
Lines: 30 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
TRG> 	See the Stainless Steel Rat attempt to rationalize something the 
TRG> Hero Rules don't currently handle with spurious logic and assumtions. 
 
TRG> 	Don't miss it, folks. 
 
Why not?  The source material does the same thing, after all. :) 
 
I dislike the idea of adding a "touch" sense group to the system partially 
because it adds little as far as useful mechanics go.  Most of the 
arguments I have seen in support of the sense group are to legitimize Flash 
against it.  I have problems with that. 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:32:14 -0500 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Team Tactics 
Cc: "Hero System Listserv" <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>   Let him use his tricks to the best of his ability.  A trick he may have 
not thought of, assuming he can teleport others with him, is to grab a 
non-flying opponent, Teleport way up in the air (using a held phase), and 
then Teleport away without the opponent, letting the opponent either fall 
to the ground (doing 10-15d6 damage, depending on the height) or become a 
sitting duck for ranged attacks and flying Move Throughs.< 
 
I don't understand why getting an opponent up in the air would make him 
easier to hit with ranged attacks or flying Move Throughs.  Is this because 
you would have eliminated any cover he may have been behind? 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 31 Mar 1998 13:33:39 -0500 
Lines: 28 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
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>>>>> "JMR" == Jeff M Reid <Morfhis@compuserve.com> writes: 
 
JMR> While I agree that the Phys Lim "Blind" would be worth fewer points to 
JMR> a character with a compensatory sense, I think you're overlooking the 
JMR> ability to spot invisible targets, which Daredevil definitely can, so 
JMR> I would under no circumstances give this ability for free. 
 
Please note that I said that so long as his augmented senses do not exceed 
a normal person's capabilities, he gets them for free.  If he wants more, 
such as the ability to detect "invisible to sight" targets, he has to pay 
for it. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Date: 31 Mar 1998 13:35:26 -0500 
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
TRG> 	However, all of the above would be affected by Darkness Vs or a 
TRG> Flash Vs the touch sense group.  That is the problem being related. 
 
One way around it, without incurring the problems of a Flash vs. a tactile 
sense group, is to allow Flash vs. a special effect group: touch/tactile 
SFX. 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:35:51 -0500 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Invasion scenario 
Cc: "Hero System Listserv" <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
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How many of you have run or played invasion scenarios (aliens, creatures 
from under the earth, etc) in your campaigns?  Does this work as a 
prolonged adventure that would take several sessions to resolve, or is this 
best done as an entire campaign? 
 
Whenever I think of an invasion scenario, I'm always reminded of the old 
ROM comic book, where the Wraiths (?) were taking over people's bodies in 
order to gain control.  Is this "secret invasion" a better way to do it, or 
do you prefer an all-out military campaign where the heroes have the US 
Marines (or whatever) on their side? 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Opening Day 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 31 Mar 1998 13:36:26 -0500 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes: 
 
MS> PLAY BALL!!! 
 
Oh, man! we went through this last year! 
 
A BASEBALL GAME IS NOT COMBAT! 
 
And that is all I will say this time around. 
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Testing! 
To: andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com (Andreano Keith HIM VA) 
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:38:58 -0800 (PST) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> OK, ye 'ol Puma make stab at fixing email problem! Say if it works! 
> 
	Worked 
  
> Now we return to our regularly scheduled topic... 
>  
> 	Are there any other Champions gamers out there that also like 
> Japanese Animation? I'd really like some Champions supplements to 
> cover anime. Imagine your heroes meeting Ryoko from Tenchi Muyo! ^_^; 
 
	Lots. You need to get together with M. Surbrook. :) Can't remember 
his website right now, but I'd be suprised if his reply to you doesn't beat 
mine. :) He's very active here. 
 
	I myself am among those lots... The 'drawn by me' art on my site is 
all anime-isc. But it's nothing proffessional.  
 
	But I'd say somewhere between 50-80% of Champion's fans are anime fans. 
They've yet to exploit that in anything other than the old Robot Warriors, who's 
art was so bad I had to stop reading it and eventually sold my copy. 
 
Rook ?U ?k 1b  'no giga pets were harmed in the production of this message'. 
 __ 
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html	Super Hero Links 
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/			Super Hero Roleplay 
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Point Bases 
To: andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com (Andreano Keith HIM VA) 
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:43:01 -0800 (PST) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>  
> What point bases do you assorted GMs out there use in your games? 
> Puma used between 350 and 600 (usually use ~450) with ~150 in dissads 
> so total characters are 500 to 750 (~600 typical). All input welcome! 
 
	I don't. 
 
	I give my players no info on base points, max points, max active, or 
number of disads. 
	Instead I set power levels. I tell them the approximate 'average' 
power level they should shoot for, then leave it up to them to make sure it's 
balanced enough that I will approve it. 
 
	Look at: 
		http://www.infinex.com/~rook/champs/camprule.html 
	to see what I mean by this. 
 
Rook ?U ?k 1b  'no giga pets were harmed in the production of this message'. 
 __ 
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html	Super Hero Links 
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/			Super Hero Roleplay 
 
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:44:11 EST 
To: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org, champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  Re: Block vs Dodge 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
In a message dated 3/30/98 4:28:09 PM, ratinox@peorth.gweep.net wrote: 
 
<<So now I need to go back over my math a bit more carefully....  Yeah... 
CVs being equal, Block is slightly more effective a defense than Dodge 
against the initial hand to hand strike because the attacker's roll is made 
less than half the time that the defender attempts to block.  If the 
defender's CV is higher than the attacker, Block is a dramatically more 
effective defense maneuver than Dodge, at least for melee attacks.>> 
 
Dodge works against all attackers, too, while Block is only good for one 
attack. 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games  
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:51:06 -0800 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Point Bases 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:53 AM 3/31/1998 -0600, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA wrote: 
>What point bases do you assorted GMs out there use in your games? 
>Puma used between 350 and 600 (usually use ~450) with ~150 in dissads 
>so total characters are 500 to 750 (~600 typical). All input welcome! 
 
   Well, that's a pretty flamin' high-powered game you've got there.  The 
"standard" level is 100 base points plus 150 in Disads.  Some, who have a 
hard time coming up with fitting Disadvantages, prefer 150+100.  I know 
that Shelley Mactyre's high-end games run on 200+200.  I tend to go for 
100+200 myself. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:52:40 -0800 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Testing! 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:28 AM 3/31/1998 -0600, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA wrote: 
>OK, ye 'ol Puma make stab at fixing email problem! Say if it works! 
 
   "If it works!"  (Interesting Incantation Limitation there....) 
 
>Now we return to our regularly scheduled topic... 
> 
> Are there any other Champions gamers out there that also like 
>Japanese Animation? I'd really like some Champions supplements to 
>cover anime. Imagine your heroes meeting Ryoko from Tenchi Muyo! ^_^; 
 
   The last I heard, Michael Surbrook was working up a campaign book for 
his anime styled campaign, Kazei 5.  It's a start, at any rate. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:54:19 -0800 
To: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com&> 
        "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: Point Bases 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:53 AM 3/31/98 -0600, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA wrote: 
>What point bases do you assorted GMs out there use in your games? 
>Puma used between 350 and 600 (usually use ~450) with ~150 in dissads 
>so total characters are 500 to 750 (~600 typical). All input welcome! 
> 
My current game is 100+100 in disads. 
 
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:15:34 -0600 (CST) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Real Champions! (off topic) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote:  
 
>  
>    Anyone wanna do Sports Hero? 
>    It's a book I've been wanting since 1986, but nobody's gone ahead to 
> write the book on how to play sports in the Hero System.  It would be a 
> difficult book to do, since Hero doesn't lend itself easily to athletic 
> competition, so the author would have to be much more of a sports nut than 
> myself.  It would have to include the game rules for various team and 
> individual sports (baseball, basketball, football [American], hockey, 
> soccer [that's the word we use for "real" football], and track & field, at 
 
I started a thread a while back trying to figure out how to use the hero 
rules for sports.  I know I've got some of the thread printed, but on a quick 
scan, I couldn't find any of it archived so I could repost. 
 
We didn't get very far... 
 
Curt 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:23:48 -0500 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Point Bases 
Cc: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
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Message text written by "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" 
>What point bases do you assorted GMs out there use in your games? 
Puma used between 350 and 600 (usually use ~450) with ~150 in dissads 
so total characters are 500 to 750 (~600 typical). All input welcome! 
< 
 
I have used 150 + 150 disads (300), but this time around I'm using 100 + 
150 disads (250).  Once, I played in a campaign where we had 225 + 150 
disads (375), and we were extremely powerful.  I can't imagine playing a 
game with 600 point characters...what do you spend all your points on?  Do 
you just get huge attacks like 20d6 Energy Blasts or whatever?  300 is the 
most I'm comfortable with. 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:23:49 -0500 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: New Ultimate Books! (not!) 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Message text written by Lizard 
>The Ultimate Trendoid (featuring skateboard heroes, CB heroes, rollerblade 
heroes, disco heroes)< 
 
Doesn't C.L.O.W.N. have a skateboard hero (villain)?  I think her name is 
Skate Kate or something similar.... 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 31 Mar 1998 14:26:08 -0500 
Lines: 25 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
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>>>>> "HG" == Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> writes: 
 
HG> Dodge works against all attackers, too, while Block is only good for 
HG> one attack. 
 
Um, no.  If a character successfully blocks a melee attack, he may attempt 
to block a successive attack with a cumulative -2 OCV penalty.  He may keep 
this up until he fails a block roll. 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:28:33 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: pod@avalon.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net> 
Subject: EC Slots 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
        I have a gamer that is trying to convice me of the following. 
        Here is a quicky copy of his Sheet. 
 
Power 
        EC (Gravity Special Effects) 
30 
        (a)Density Increase (1 Level, AO) 
10 
        (a)Density Increase (7 Levels, 0END, ET-Full Phase) 
52 
        (b)Entangle 3d6 (No Damage, AA-hex) 
60 
        (c)RKA 3d6 (1/2 END) 
56 
        (d)Force Field 20/20 (1/2 END) 
50 
        (d)Missle Deflection (bullets, +2 to roll, linked to FF, costs END) 
19 
        (e)Suppress 4d6 (1/2 END, vs. SFX all powers) 
65 
        (f)END Reserve 450/15 (-1/4 Lim) 
60 
 
        Ok.  Now these are HIS numbers, NOT mine.  If i have done my math 
right and read the rules right, he cannot do this! 
        And yes, I have noticed that he does not have 0 END persistent on 
his first level of DI.  I have pointed this out to him and have asked him to 
correct it. 
        Maybe I have miss read the rules somewhere, but can a character 
actually have a slot be split up like he thinks they can be?  This is why 
there are 2 (a) slots and (d) slots. 
 
        Any help would be appreciated. 
 
-Dan 
Lord of the Mushroom Giants 
 
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From: Prodipto Roy <proy@MICROSOFT.com> 
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Cc: Hero System Listserv <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Invasion scenario 
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:39:41 -0800 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
I've done both.  One of my favorite scenarios was a demon invasion where the 
demons actually created an impenetrable force wall around the city.  Their 
plan was to establish themselves there, and then expand the wall to 
encompass the next city and so on until they conquered the world.  The 
heroes had to go underground, team up with villains, and all other sorts of 
unlikelihoods that cropped up.  Over the course of the adventure, one of the 
heroines developed a romance with the leader of the toughest villain group 
in the city.  Made for all sorts of awkward moments when the invasion was 
over. 
 
Another GM in our group did a covert alien invasion.  The coolest thing was 
that he merged two disparate groups to make it happen.  The aliens were 
planning to extend their dominion to Earth.  Seeing supers as their biggest 
threat, they founded and subsidized Genocide in an effort eliminate the 
threat from within before they planned their big attack.  Of course we 
foiled their scheme and wound up capturing one of their battlecruisers.  Now 
if we could only find a way to make it run without cybernetic implants };) 
 
--Pro 
 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From:	David Stallard [SMTP:DBStallard@compuserve.com] 
> Sent:	Tuesday, March 31, 1998 10:36 AM 
> Cc:	Hero System Listserv 
> Subject:	Invasion scenario 
>  
> How many of you have run or played invasion scenarios (aliens, creatures 
> from under the earth, etc) in your campaigns?  Does this work as a 
> prolonged adventure that would take several sessions to resolve, or is 
> this 
> best done as an entire campaign? 
>  
> Whenever I think of an invasion scenario, I'm always reminded of the old 
> ROM comic book, where the Wraiths (?) were taking over people's bodies in 
> order to gain control.  Is this "secret invasion" a better way to do it, 
> or 
> do you prefer an all-out military campaign where the heroes have the US 
> Marines (or whatever) on their side? 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:43:36 -0500 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Independent Focus 
Cc: "Hero System Listserv" <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
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Do most GMs out there outlaw or limit Independent Focus?  I allow it, IF 
only a minor part of your character's power comes from that focus.  If 
taking the focus would severely cripple you, I don't allow it. 
 
Some years ago, we were playing in a 375-point campaign...my character was 
a brick/earth-controller, and the GM was running a speedster hero who's 
powers came from his boots.  Well, the speedster got killed (by another PC, 
but that's another story), and my character took his boots (this was in my 
"less sophisticated" days...nowadays, I would never do such a thing in a 
superhero game), essentially becoming a 750-point 
speedster/brick/earth-controller.  The GM was not at all happy with this 
idea, but allowed me to do it.  Later in the same session, we were attacked 
by Firewing, and one Move-Through from my "mega" character ended the fight 
before it really got started.  Anyway, it's because of things like this 
that I watch Independent very closely. 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:43:36 -0500 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Villain bases 
Cc: "Hero System Listserv" <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
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How do you ensure that a villain base will stay around after the PCs have 
discovered it?  I'm thinking of Viper nests specifically, but I guess this 
applies to anything.  It seems to me that, once a PC group knows about the 
bad-guy base, they will take it out themselves or else make sure the proper 
authorities are on the case.  The reason I'm asking is because the C:NM 
setting spends several pages on a nest hidden in Bay City, but it seems 
like the heroes would remove it upon discovery, making it a very 
short-lived part of the campaign city. 
 
I remember one campaign in which I was a player, we were fighting a villain 
named Master Razor who ruled his own country, and he got the hero team to 
simply walk away when he reminded us that we were illegally in his country 
and were in danger of sparking an international incident.  That worked fine 
for him, but what kind of scapegoat could Viper use to keep a nest in 
operation after the heroes stumble upon it? 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:50:02 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
To: Champions Discussion List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Testing! 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Brian Wong wrote: 
 
> Rook ?U ?k 1b  'no giga pets were harmed in the production of this message'. 
 
Rook, if you don't start harming giga pets, I'm going to lose respect for 
you. 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 12:02:31 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: EC Slots 
To: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Palace of Dwarves writes: 
> 65      (e)Suppress 4d6 (1/2 END, vs. SFX all powers) 
All what powers?  This must be specified.  'All powers' is not a single SFX 
> 60      (f)END Reserve 450/15 (-1/4 Lim) 
Illegal, you cannot put an END reserve in an EC, it is a special power. 
 
>         Ok.  Now these are HIS numbers, NOT mine.  If i have done my math 
> right and read the rules right, he cannot do this! 
Several costs look high, if anything. 
>         And yes, I have noticed that he does not have 0 END persistent on 
> his first level of DI.  I have pointed this out to him and have asked him 
> to correct it. 
It appears that he actually did pay for persistent, he just didn't list it. 
 
>         Maybe I have miss read the rules somewhere, but can a character 
> actually have a slot be split up like he thinks they can be?  This is why 
> there are 2 (a) slots and (d) slots. 
 
You can have only one _effect_ in a slot; if this effect is represented by 
linked powers, they can go in the slot together -- and are assumed to be linked 
'for free', so to speak (i.e. no limitation is received).  This can get out of 
hand, but looks legitimate enough in this case.  The only illegal things I see 
are the two noted above.  Note that his '1 phase to activate' on the DI is only 
a -1/4 limitation, as DI is a constant power which can be used continually once 
activated. 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 12:06:21 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Villain bases 
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Cc: Hero System Listserv <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
David Stallard writes: 
> How do you ensure that a villain base will stay around after the PCs have 
> discovered it? 
 
Generally speaking, you don't.  When a villian base is discovered, if the PCs 
don't immediately clean it out, assume that a horde of unmarked trucks arrive 
at the site, and 24-48 hours later there is no evidence of any criminal 
activity on the premises, and the businessmen there assure everyone that yes, 
they've been here for years, and they have no idea what the PCs are talking 
about, and ....  Meanwhile, the villian base is now about half a mile away, in 
some new building ;). 
 
>  I'm thinking of Viper nests specifically, but I guess this 
> applies to anything.  It seems to me that, once a PC group knows about the 
> bad-guy base, they will take it out themselves or else make sure the proper 
> authorities are on the case.  The reason I'm asking is because the C:NM 
> setting spends several pages on a nest hidden in Bay City, but it seems 
> like the heroes would remove it upon discovery, making it a very 
> short-lived part of the campaign city. 
 
This assumes that the PCs would discover the base. 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 15:07:59 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) 
From: Duane Morris <duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca> 
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Team Tactics 
X-X-Sender: duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote: 
 
> I don't understand why getting an opponent up in the air would make him 
> easier to hit with ranged attacks or flying Move Throughs.  Is this because 
> you would have eliminated any cover he may have been behind? 
 
Remember... airborne targets are easier to knockback <unless of course 
they can somehow brace themselves..>  (: 
 
Duane. 
 
------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Duane Morris <duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca>   Dept. of Technical Services 
Faculty of Pure and Applied Science        Petrie Science Stores 
York University, North York, Ontario  M3J 1P3, CANADA 
Voice: (416) 736-5244; Fax: (416) 736-5516 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 12:09:31 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Team Tactics  
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 07:06 PM 3/31/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
>Subject: Re: Team Tactics 
>Cc: "Hero System Listserv" <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
 
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>>   Let him use his tricks to the best of his ability.  A trick he may have 
>not thought of, assuming he can teleport others with him, is to grab a 
>non-flying opponent, Teleport way up in the air (using a held phase), and 
>then Teleport away without the opponent, letting the opponent either fall 
>to the ground (doing 10-15d6 damage, depending on the height) or become a 
>sitting duck for ranged attacks and flying Move Throughs.< 
> 
>I don't understand why getting an opponent up in the air would make him 
>easier to hit with ranged attacks or flying Move Throughs.  Is this because 
>you would have eliminated any cover he may have been behind? 
 
   No, it's because he's in an uncontrolled free-fall and thus at DCV 0 (or 
DCV Based on Velocity, if you prefer). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:12:12 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
To: Champions Discussion List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On 31 Mar 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> >>>>> "HG" == Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> writes: 
>  
> HG> Dodge works against all attackers, too, while Block is only good for 
> HG> one attack. 
>  
> Um, no.  If a character successfully blocks a melee attack, he may attempt 
> to block a successive attack with a cumulative -2 OCV penalty.  He may keep 
> this up until he fails a block roll. 
 
For once, I agree with Rat (over Steve Petersen!) 
 
I'm sure what Steve meant just didn't come out right. Of course you can 
block more than one attack, even from more than one attacker. 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 12:19:16 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: EC Slots 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 01:28 PM 3/31/1998 -0600, Palace of Dwarves wrote: 
> 
>        I have a gamer that is trying to convice me of the following. 
>        Here is a quicky copy of his Sheet. 
> 
>Power 
>        EC (Gravity Special Effects) 
>30 
>        (a)Density Increase (1 Level, AO) 
>10 
 
   This slot is smaller than the Pool.  And, of course, as you point out 
yourself, it's not 0 END Persistent.  I also wonder about this being Always 
On, with a Gravity SFX; does he just constantly generate 2Gs against himself? 
 
>        (a)Density Increase (7 Levels, 0END, ET-Full Phase) 
>52 
>        (b)Entangle 3d6 (No Damage, AA-hex) 
>60 
 
   Is that supposed to be "AE: hex" (as in Area Effect)? 
 
>        (c)RKA 3d6 (1/2 END) 
>56 
>        (d)Force Field 20/20 (1/2 END) 
>50 
>        (d)Missle Deflection (bullets, +2 to roll, linked to FF, costs END) 
>19 
 
   Two Powers in different slots cannot be Linked.  The Missile Deflection 
has to be taken outside the EC. 
 
>        (e)Suppress 4d6 (1/2 END, vs. SFX all powers) 
>65 
 
   What's the SFX this works against?  (Just curious.) 
 
>        (f)END Reserve 450/15 (-1/4 Lim) 
>60 
 
   Anything I don't comment on looks OK to me, at least on a casual perusal. 
 
>        Ok.  Now these are HIS numbers, NOT mine.  If i have done my math 
>right and read the rules right, he cannot do this! 
>        And yes, I have noticed that he does not have 0 END persistent on 
>his first level of DI.  I have pointed this out to him and have asked him to 
>correct it. 
>        Maybe I have miss read the rules somewhere, but can a character 
>actually have a slot be split up like he thinks they can be?  This is why 
>there are 2 (a) slots and (d) slots. 
 
   A slot can be "split up," but it's still only one slot and doesn't get 
the EC bonus twice.  He can make a Power only partially Limited, and two 
Powers that are Linked do go into the same slot (my understanding of this 
being that the Active Points of the two Powers are added together before 
the EC bonus is applied). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge 
To: ratinox@peorth.gweep.net (Stainless Steel Rat) 
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 12:20:23 -0800 (PST) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> >>>>> "HG" == Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> writes: 
>  
> HG> Dodge works against all attackers, too, while Block is only good for 
> HG> one attack. 
 
	To which 'Rat' replies: 
>  
> Um, no.  If a character successfully blocks a melee attack, he may attempt 
> to block a successive attack with a cumulative -2 OCV penalty.  He may keep 
> this up until he fails a block roll. 
 
	Hmm... I thought the author of the rules could generally be considered 
'THE' authority on them. Do you have a page number reference for that counter 
argument Rat? To be honest, in this case, my vague memory on the issue seems 
to support Rat. But when HG says otherwise I take pause. 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 20:25:01 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: [Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
qts wrote: 
<snip> 
> I forgot to mention this in my last post, but the Prime Rule of 
> Diadvantages applies: if the character can Teleport or fly or whatever, 
> then he doesn't get a disadvantage worth any points! Not so obviously, 
> this also applies to a hero able to hail a taxi... 
 
You went overboard here. Assumine the character can afford unlimited taxi service, taxis are not nearly as convenient as a car. If someone 10 minutes drive away called my house and said, "Get over hear in 15 minutes or I'm dead", he'd die if I needed a taxi. 
 
A person in a wheelchair may not be as disadvantaged as a person who has to be carried everywhere, but he still gets _some_ points for not being able to walk. The same reasoning applies. Being able to hail a taxi, in theory, may reduce the disadvantage, but doesn't negate it. 
 
Unable to drive may not be worth much, but it is worth more than 1 pt. as a Disadvantage. As a guy without a car in an area  (Greater Seattle area) with supposedly one of the best public transit systems in the country, you can trust me on this. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 15:37:53 -0500 (EST) 
From: JASON SULLIVAN <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: The Amazing Throw-A-Tron 
To: Champs-l@sysabend.org 
Cc: Ravanos <Ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
I'm trying to make a villan who is a Super-Dex villian that can throw 
just about anything in the known universe and use it as a weapon at range. 
I remember reading a write-up of PC for Champions who had these exact 
powers, with a nifty system included to determine damage based on what 
type of object it is. 
Could the creator of said PC contact me and tell me where this is posted 
on the web; my players will hate you, but you'll have my thanks. 
 
 
 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 15:49:51 -0500 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Villain bases 
To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Cc: Hero System Listserv <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Message text written by Anthony Jackson 
>>  I'm thinking of Viper nests specifically, but I guess this 
>> applies to anything.  It seems to me that, once a PC group knows about 
the 
>> bad-guy base, they will take it out themselves or else make sure the 
proper 
>> authorities are on the case.  The reason I'm asking is because the C:NM 
>> setting spends several pages on a nest hidden in Bay City, but it seems 
>> like the heroes would remove it upon discovery, making it a very 
>> short-lived part of the campaign city. 
 
>This assumes that the PCs would discover the base. 
 
Well, if they don't discover the base, then all that write-up on it was a 
waste, except as an example of how to design your own. 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 15:50:42 -0500 
To: "Hero System Listserv" <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> 
Subject: Re: Independent Focus 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 02:43 PM 3/31/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote: 
>Do most GMs out there outlaw or limit Independent Focus?  I allow it,  
 
I wouldn't restrict use of the that limitation per se ... but 
naturally, you would watch for an abuse of it, just as you would 
any other power. 
 
In the example you cite (the Brick obtains speed boots), I would 
probably allow it as a creative move.  But I would not allow him 
to keep the boots.  Or, I would invent some mystery disad that  
makes the boots so much of a problem that he is GLAD to get rid 
of them.   
 
Personally, I avoid the Independant limitation as a character 
ever since a 5-point focus of mine was destroyed in an accident. 
(That was 5 points I wouldn't mind getting back!) 
 
======================  ================================================= 
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed  
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is  
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead 
======================  ================================================= 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:57:29 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
To: Champions Discussion List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Independent Focus 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, David Stallard wrote: 
 
> Do most GMs out there outlaw or limit Independent Focus?  I allow it, IF 
> only a minor part of your character's power comes from that focus.  If 
> taking the focus would severely cripple you, I don't allow it. 
 
Sensible. Very sensible. 
 
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 15:59:39 EST 
To: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org, champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  Re: Block vs Dodge 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
In a message dated 3/31/98 1:35:31 PM, chip@owlnet.rice.edu wrote: 
 
<<I'm sure what Steve meant just didn't come out right. Of course you can 
block more than one attack, even from more than one attacker.>> 
 
What I meant was that Dodge is equally useful against multiple attackers, 
whereas Block is best against the first attack; after a couple of attacks your 
chance to block is small. If you're beset by a host of attackers, Dodge is 
your best bet. 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games  
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:09:18 -0500 
To: "Hero System Listserv" <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> 
Subject: Re: Villain bases 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 02:43 PM 3/31/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote: 
>How do you ensure that a villain base will stay around after the PCs have 
>discovered it?   
 
Just make sure that the location is not vital to the storyline. 
The points on which any base is created are re-usable (unless you 
did something silly like making it Independent), so when the heroes 
discover it, blow it up and immediately establish a new one  
elsewhere. 
======================  ================================================= 
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed  
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is  
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead 
======================  ================================================= 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:09:20 -0800 
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: 5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
   Here are some thoughts I've just had about Entangle for 5th Edition: 
   1) Is there any real reason to not be able to buy DEF and BODY 
separately for 5 pts each?  (This would eliminate "Entangle with No 
Defense" and "Entangle with 1 BODY" as Limitations, and make them just 
another way to structure the Entangle.)  An Entangle worth 50 Active Points 
(sans Advantages) would be 5 DEF, 5d6; couldn't I just as easily have one 
that's 8 DEF, 2d6 or 2 DEF, 8d6? 
   2) It seems to me that the designer should be able to simply declare 
some or all of the BODY dice to rolling 1 BODY.  Since each die rolls 1 
BODY on average, this would take no Modifier.  Thus 2d6, 1d6 + 1 BODY, and 
2 BODY would all cost the same, and the designer could freely choose how 
the Entangle works. 
   3) I've seen an occasional instance of Entangles in comics and sci-fi 
that are capable of rebuilding themselves - in other words, Regeneration. 
I'd structure this as Regeneration taken as part of the Entangle, costing 
END as part of the Entangle and applying only to the BODY of the Entangle. 
I'm not sure whether this should cost 5 points or 10 points per BODY 
recovered every Turn (I'm leaning toward the former, given the limited 
utility, but I could be convinced otherwise). 
   4) Entangle seems like the most likely game mechanic for building 
bridges and (especially if suggestions #1 and #2 above are taken) other 
objects like chairs.  But what would be the holding capacity?  I lean 
toward the idea of 5 STR per DEF+BODY, with the weight above that (starting 
over from 0) acting as a Normal Damage attack based on the STR needed to 
carry that weight, but there are a lot of different ways of approaching 
this and few are any less valid than mine. 
   5) Could we please have some concrete examples of using Entangle for 
making a barrier?  This was mentioned in passing in the 4th Edition, but a 
few more details are needed -- like, does the barrier cover two-hex sides, 
three hex-sides, a line through the middle of the hex, the whole hex, or 
something else? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 15:15:17 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Reply-To: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
To: Champions Discussion List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: EC Slots 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Palace of Dwarves wrote: 
 
>         Ok.  Now these are HIS numbers, NOT mine.  If i have done my math 
> right and read the rules right, he cannot do this! 
>         And yes, I have noticed that he does not have 0 END persistent on 
> his first level of DI.  I have pointed this out to him and have asked him to 
> correct it. 
>         Maybe I have miss read the rules somewhere, but can a character 
> actually have a slot be split up like he thinks they can be?  This is why 
> there are 2 (a) slots and (d) slots. 
>  
>         Any help would be appreciated. 
 
Your player's EC looks correct, although I haven't checked all the math. 
He's not really splitting slots, because he's taking the EC point break 
only once per power. It's just a partially limited power, a valid 
construction--I don't see any reason not to allow it; it's not abusive, 
and it adds flavor. 
 
The Force field and Missile Deflection are linked, a construction which is 
explicitly allowed in the rules. 
 
It looks like a cool character. *wink* I'd add a change environment, 
though. If your house rules allow for a 15-point major CE, then he could 
create neat gravity effects, like attracting everyone and everything  
within the area to a certain point (a gravity well) or even reversing 
gravity. 
 
I'm glad to see the suppress in there. 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:16:49 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:20 PM 3/31/1998 -0800, Brian Wong wrote: 
>> >>>>> "HG" == Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> writes: 
>>  
>> HG> Dodge works against all attackers, too, while Block is only good for 
>> HG> one attack. 
> 
> To which 'Rat' replies: 
>>  
>> Um, no.  If a character successfully blocks a melee attack, he may attempt 
>> to block a successive attack with a cumulative -2 OCV penalty.  He may keep 
>> this up until he fails a block roll. 
> 
> Hmm... I thought the author of the rules could generally be considered 
>'THE' authority on them. Do you have a page number reference for that counter 
>argument Rat? To be honest, in this case, my vague memory on the issue seems 
>to support Rat. But when HG says otherwise I take pause. 
 
   I think Steve meant to say that Block is only good for one attack *per 
block.* 
   Rat's page reference (which, ideally, ought to have been included with 
his statement) is HSR page 152, second column, under Block, in the 
paragraph sandwiched between the two Examples. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Point Bases 
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 15:17:13 -0600 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
	>I have used 150 + 150 disads (300), but this time around I'm 
using 100 + 
	>150 disads (250).  Once, I played in a campaign where we had 
225 + 150 
	>disads (375), and we were extremely powerful.  I can't imagine 
playing a 
	>game with 600 point characters...what do you spend all your 
points on?  Do 
	>you just get huge attacks like 20d6 Energy Blasts or whatever? 
300 is the 
	>most I'm comfortable with. 
 
For one, the characters tend not to have much in the way of power 
limitations. 
Second they tend to be well fleshed out conception wise, with many 
non-combat 
skills and abilities. They aren't min-maxed combat machines with loads 
of power 
dissads. I've seem some 100 point base characters with bigger attacks 
and 
defenses that my 600 point ones! ^_^; They tend to have a very 
comic-book feel.  
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
	"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"  
					- Joan of Arc's .sig 
     Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 31 Mar 1998 16:22:29 -0500 
Lines: 26 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BW" == Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes: 
 
BW> 	Hmm... I thought the author of the rules could generally be 
BW> considered 'THE' authority on them. 
 
Yep.  But Steve Peterson is the line editor, not the author. 
 
Anyway, I think it was an honest mistake on Steve's part.  "Rolling Block" 
has been part of the rules for a long time. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 98 21:24:52  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Point Base/Active Points 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:46:41 -0600, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA wrote: 
 
>Most people seem to be ~100 point base (some up to 200). 
>OK, now big part! What's the ACTIVE cost of you characters. 
>IE: 250 point character with -1 power limitation on everything 
>equals 500 active point character! Come on, 'fess up! ^_^; 
 
Well, a quick look through a stack of (Champions) characters that were played in my  
games or that I played in other games shows -3/4 was the average total limitations  
applied to the power (not stats or skills).  Figure about 50 points shaved via limitations. 
 
All in all, that doesn't really increase the Active total all that much from the Real total.   
So my answer would be about 300. 
 
 
 
 
      John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysanbend,org> 
================================================= 
Gotta question about the list? Just ask. Or, you can go look  
over at www.sysabend.org/champions.  I've been slowly 
posting information about the list there. 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 15:41:47 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: New Ultimate Books! (not!) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> The Ultimate Annoying Kid Sidekick 
 
	But I want this one! 
 
> The Ultimate Strapless Evening Gown Wearing Heroine 
 
	Oh, you think everything's a strapless evening gown . . . 
 
> The Ultimate Powergamer (featuring tips on buying 'missing one hand' per 
> finger) 
 
	You forgot X10 END, 0END. 
 
> The Ultimate DNPC (featuring 'heart attack' rules and the 'kidnap prone' 
> disadvantage) 
 
	This could seriously be useful. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 15:44:30 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> TRG> 	Don't miss it, folks. 
> 
> Why not?  The source material does the same thing, after all. :) 
 
	Huh? 
 
> I dislike the idea of adding a "touch" sense group to the system partially 
> because it adds little as far as useful mechanics go.  Most of the 
> arguments I have seen in support of the sense group are to legitimize Flash 
> against it.  I have problems with that. 
 
	Actually, I'm almost positive that Classic Organizations had a 
character with ranged, targetting, discriminatory touch. 
 
	It's valid in the sense that Hero should cover as much as 
possible, and adding a Touch sense group would not be unbalancing -- it's 
be rarely used, but I find many enhanced senses to be rarely used. 
 
	Next -- add taste to the smell sense group. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 15:46:07 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> TRG> 	However, all of the above would be affected by Darkness Vs or a 
> TRG> Flash Vs the touch sense group.  That is the problem being related. 
> 
> One way around it, without incurring the problems of a Flash vs. a tactile 
> sense group, is to allow Flash vs. a special effect group: touch/tactile 
> SFX. 
 
	All Spatial Awareness. and many other enhanced "unusual" senses, 
are supposed to be put within a group of some sort.  Adding a Touch Sense 
group would legitimize those unusuals based on a touch SFX.  Your way 
works, but there is no real reason not to simply add the Touch Group. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 15:47:14 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Opening Day 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> MS> PLAY BALL!!! 
> 
> Oh, man! we went through this last year! 
> 
> A BASEBALL GAME IS NOT COMBAT! 
> 
> And that is all I will say this time around. 
 
	Oh, come on!  Tell us why throwing a Ball at 90+ MPH at a small 
target isn't combat.  Would that suggest firing a gun at a target is also 
not combat.  (A stationary practice target, that is.) 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 15:47:57 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Hero System Listserv <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Team Tactics 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> I don't understand why getting an opponent up in the air would make him 
> easier to hit with ranged attacks or flying Move Throughs.  Is this because 
> you would have eliminated any cover he may have been behind? 
 
	He's not moving under his own control and is falling.  I'd give it 
a good negative modifier. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:51:02 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net> 
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 09:03 AM 3/31/98 -0500, Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
 
>>   I don't think it has to do with deciding to Block; it has to do with 
>>deciding whether or not you need to find out whether the Block was 
>>successful.  If the attacker misses, then it doesn't matter whether the 
>>Block connects or not; the defender still doesn't take any damage. 
> 
>True -- if the strike misses, it's "no harm, no foul".  But the 
>defending character has already used his action to block and does 
>not get to choose another action simply because the attack missed. 
>I don't know if you assumed that or not, but it was not clear in 
>the original post. 
 
I don't want to step on anyone's toes here, but there is an advantage to 
succeeding with a Block that seems to have been forgotten.  When you block, 
you get to ACT BEFORE YOUR OPPONENT gets to act on the next phase.  This is 
a significant part of the Blocking IMO.  I have had slower characters 
block, just so they would get to attack first on the following phase.  This 
has come in handy.  One character (a FH swashbuckler) bought levels in 
Block (parry with sword) just so he could get an advantage on the following 
phase. 
 
Did everyone forget about this when the discussion went toward "who cares 
if you block if they miss you in the first place..."???? 
 
It matters a lot! 
 
Jim 
 
---G-A-T-E-C-R-A-S-H-E-R-----Q-U-O-T-E----- 
         "What the hell is this?" 
   Words spoken by Bristol Addams -- one 
       of which activated the Gate 
----------O-F----T-H-E----D-A-Y------------ 
Jim Dickinson -=- champion@cyberhighway.net 
  Circle of HEROs Homepage -- Join Today! 
     http://www.aircyber.net/~jd/coh 
              CHECK IT OUT! 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 15:53:15 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: New Ultimate Books! (not!) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> >The Ultimate Trendoid (featuring skateboard heroes, CB heroes, rollerblade 
> heroes, disco heroes)< 
> 
> Doesn't C.L.O.W.N. have a skateboard hero (villain)?  I think her name is 
> Skate Kate or something similar.... 
 
	Yep.  And I had a player take a skating hero.  Guess who he had as 
a rivalry. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 15:54:22 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Point Bases 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> >What point bases do you assorted GMs out there use in your games? 
> >Puma used between 350 and 600 (usually use ~450) with ~150 in dissads 
> >so total characters are 500 to 750 (~600 typical). All input welcome! 
> 
>    Well, that's a pretty flamin' high-powered game you've got there.  The 
> "standard" level is 100 base points plus 150 in Disads.  Some, who have a 
> hard time coming up with fitting Disadvantages, prefer 150+100.  I know 
> that Shelley Mactyre's high-end games run on 200+200.  I tend to go for 
> 100+200 myself. 
 
	I'm similar.  I go with 100 + ~175, though more or less 
disadvantages can apply according to character concept.  Then, if more 
points are needed, I hand out a Hero bonus.  I wouldn't go above about 320 
or 330 points, though. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:02:25 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Another Ultimate Super City? [looong tirade] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> << By making it multi-genre and semi-generic you open the market up again and 
> cover all of those other game systems.>> 
> 
>   IMO, hhaving a generic, multi-genre book about creating cities would be a 
> bust. Way too much info is required, thus no genre would get a fair shake; 
> each would be lacking tremendously. And I still don't think it would sell that 
> well, either... not well enough to justify the production expenses, at any 
> rate. 
 
	Well, as has been suggested, split it into eras.  List what is 
common to cities in general, and campaign settings in particular.  I do 
think something like The Ultimate Fantasy City would be a nice suppliment 
for Fantasy Hero.  (Especially if it could possibly sell to players of 
that _other_ game.) 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:04:29 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> I forgot to mention this in my last post, but the Prime Rule of 
> Diadvantages applies: if the character can Teleport or fly or whatever, 
> then he doesn't get a disadvantage worth any points! Not so obviously, 
> this also applies to a hero able to hail a taxi... 
 
	I'll have to be yet another to disagree.  While having powers will 
take away from the disadvantage value, it won't negate it.  There are 
certain advantages to being able to drive somewhere -- bing low key is a 
nice one. 
 
	And public transportation doesn't cut it.  Too many chances to run 
late, get a bad cabbie, etc -- especially if I'm running the game. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:08:52 -0800 (PST) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net 
Subject: Re: Opening Day 
To: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net, Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
---Michael Nunn  wrote: 
> 
>  
> PLAY BALL!!! 
> So just what is the DCV of a 90 mph fastball? 
 
Wouldn't you be targeting the OCV of the pitcher (as with missile 
deflection/reflection or block)?? 
 
  
> Or the OCV of 300 hitter? 
 
Many levels with "Hit small round thing with stick". 
  
> Michael 
 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:13:44 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: New "Ultimate" Book Ideas! 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
> >>Ultimate Alien: Stuff for generating aliens, 
> >>their worlds, technology, powers, etc. 
> >>Useful in everything from Champions to 
> >>Space and even "real-word" (i.e.. X-Files) 
> >>genres! 
> > 
> >   This isn't really an Ultimate book candidate, since Aliens are an 
> origin 
> >type rather than a character archetype. 
 
	I'd disagree.  They could be both.  Though an Alien character type 
would probably be a sub-type of the major ones. 
 
> However, a reference on designing nonhuman races could be useful.  I've 
> tried building an alien hero (in my defence, I should say she was the 
> second character I ever built), and looking back at her character sheet I 
> have to admit I screwed up. 
> 
> It might not be long enough for an Ultimate book, but it might work as a 
> chapter in the Superhero Genre Book. 
 
	I don't know, an Alien Race and Planet Generation book could be 
useful both for Champions and Star Hero. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:13:52 EST 
To: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org, champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re:  5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
In a message dated 3/31/98 2:43:33 PM, bob.greenwade@klock.com wrote: 
 
<<1) Is there any real reason to not be able to buy DEF and BODY 
separately for 5 pts each?>> 
 
Yes, actually. One could effectively restrain normals with a high DEF, low 
BODY Entangle, and it would probably be too cheap. 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games  
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:15:39 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> Here are a few more Secret ID's in other genres: 
> 
> The Scarlet Pimpernel 
> The Man in the Iron Mask (maybe) 
> The Silent Knight (DC Comics medieval hero) 
> The Shadow 
> Clint Eastwood in Hang 'Em High 
> Martin Guerre? 
> "Control" on Babylon 5 
> Arguably, Kosh (or any Vorlon) on B5 - though "Secret" would be better 
> Depending on the story, Sir Lancelot, who used to wander anonymously, 
> even using a different Coat of Arms, so that people would be 
> willing to fight him. 
 
	Well, in Wrestling Hero, we could find numerous cases of masked 
mystery men. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:17:05 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Team Tactics  
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> >I don't understand why getting an opponent up in the air would make him 
> >easier to hit with ranged attacks or flying Move Throughs.  Is this because 
> >you would have eliminated any cover he may have been behind? 
> 
>    No, it's because he's in an uncontrolled free-fall and thus at DCV 0 (or 
> DCV Based on Velocity, if you prefer). 
 
	I'm wondering where the rules are that state this.  I'm personally 
not sure if I'd give DCV 0, though Velocity-based isn't bad.  I'd probably 
go for 1/2 DCV. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:19:36 -0800 (PST) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net 
Subject: Re: Point Bases 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
---"Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA"  wrote: 
> 
> What point bases do you assorted GMs out there use in your games? 
> Puma used between 350 and 600 (usually use ~450) with ~150 in dissads 
> so total characters are 500 to 750 (~600 typical). All input welcome! 
 
Depends on what type of game I'm running. 
 
Four-Colour Champions:  I usually do 100 point base plus disads, no 
more than 50 points of any given disad type - character tend to be 
about 250 points total. 
 
Justice Inc.or Star Hero (using 4th edition Hero): 75 points base plus 
disads, no more than 25 points of any given disad type - character 
tend to be between 125-150 points. 
 
Fantasy Hero (Low Fantasy): 50 point base plus disads, no more than 25 
points of any given disad type - character tend to be between 100-125 
points. 
 
Fantasy Hero (High Fantasy): 75 points base plus disads, no more than 
25 points of any given disad type - character tend to be between 
125-150 points. 
 
Golden Age Champions:  Varies with my mood.  I general like the power 
level to be similar to modern era hero, but with few disads, so I 
frequently work with a higher base. 
 
 
-=>John Desmarais 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:21:23 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: Champions Listserv <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> >    Some potentially good locations ...... 
> 
> What is "good adventuring information" ? 
 
	Interesting places to send players with streetwise skill.  "Cool" 
locations for combat.  (Top of the Sears Tower -- "Um, I'm through the 
window.  How many inches high are we?") 
 
> Add sections on "Interesting locations and places in City 'X'" and 
> (fictional) "Local heroes and villains". 
 
	Most definately. 
 
> What I'm trying to get at is that I would not be interested in 
> paying money for a Chicago sourcebook, 
> for example, unless it concentrated on things that 
> would make a setting in Chicago unique that I could not find just by doing 
> a minimal amount of research.  Further, I don't know that there are enough 
> of these unique factors that producing a sourcebook is justified. 
 
	Oh, I definately think there are.  Look at Justice Not Law and 
Kingdom of Champions for examples.  Though I'd like to see a book just on 
London. 
 
	In a Chicago book I'd place some interesting "normal" NPCs, a hero 
team to either supplant or suppliment, a villian team, and a few solo 
villians and heroes.  Many would have a local slant. 
 
	I'd add information on the local presense of various branches of 
organized crime as well as the major Villian Agencies -- Viper Base, Demon 
Base, Genocide Presence, Terror Inc Hideout, A small base of Dr. 
Destroyer's Agents, etc. 
 
	I'd probably put in some new information on shady experiments 
being run at the various Universities.  And I'd outline these 
Universities, especially their strengths, as places for PCs to work at or 
attend in secret ID.  (In my last campaign, we had two college professors 
and three college students, none with any secret ID connection). 
 
	Any other requests? 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:29:47 -0800 (PST) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net 
Subject: Re: Independent Focus 
To: hero-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
---David Stallard  wrote: 
> 
> Do most GMs out there outlaw or limit Independent Focus?  I allow 
it, IF 
> only a minor part of your character's power comes from that focus.  If 
> taking the focus would severely cripple you, I don't allow it. 
 
I allow it, but I find that very few players will actually use (for 
anything except rinky-dink powers)  it as they eventually learn it's a 
pretty safe bet that focus will get taken away at least once.  Fear is 
a useful thing for controlling PCs. 
 
Remember the statement "a limitation that doesn't limit isn't worth 
anything"?  Well, as a GM, it's part of your job to make sure that any 
limitation you allowed to be used does actually limit at some point. 
 
Beside, a stole independant focus can become quite the adventure hook 
(the character WILL want to get it back). 
 
 
-=>John Desmarais 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:30:12 -0600 
From: Alex Rojas <rojasa@UTHSCSA.EDU> 
Subject: Advantages, Limitations, & Disadvantages 
X-Sender: rojasa@arwen.uthscsa.edu 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
It's just a thought,  but shouldn't Limitations and Disadvantages be switched. 
 
If you buy Advantages for a power, shouldn't the 'limitations' of the power 
be called Disadvantages.  And 'disadvantages' for the character are 
actually Limitations on both, how much you have to spend, and how your 
character reacts to situations. 
 
 
Alex 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:36:42 -0800 (PST) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net 
Subject: Fwd: Cheaters and Balance 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
This message is actually from JJP3337 <JJP3337@aol.com&>  It was sent 
to champ-l-owner instead of champ-l, so I'm just fowarding it on. 
 
 
 
---JJP3337  wrote: 
> 
> I have a playeer that had somehow managed to sneak fourteen extra 
points into 
> his character....even though I had looked it over it seems he was... 
well... 
> creative with his point totaling....I am allowing him to continue to 
play with 
> the character only because the group and ropleplaying have already 
established 
> themselves as a superteam and shaking up his abilities and 
stats...or forcing 
> in a new character would wreck the current momentum of the game. I 
should note 
> that the character isn't really overbalancing he's a mostly skills 
guy in a 
> supers game (200 points) and is the unofficial team leader at the 
moment...my 
> only condition for allowing him to continue is that he fails to gain 
> experience until he's paid for the extrat points...which seems 
fair...but the 
> other players are grumbling even though they said he could continue 
> also...what should I do...give the other playess the extra exp 
effectively 
> putting my villians a a disadvantage...or let him continue with the 
behind the 
> scenes mumbling from the other players...(I should also note this is 
a large 
> group...7 players at peak) 
>  
>  
>  
 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:39:29 -0800 
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: New Ultimate Books! (not!) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:41 PM 3/31/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
>> The Ultimate Strapless Evening Gown Wearing Heroine 
> 
>	Oh, you think everything's a strapless evening gown . . . 
> 
Hey, they were a major archetype in the 40s! 
 
>> The Ultimate Powergamer (featuring tips on buying 'missing one hand' per 
>> finger) 
> 
>	You forgot X10 END, 0END. 
> 
Not to mention HKA, No Range. 
>> The Ultimate DNPC (featuring 'heart attack' rules and the 'kidnap prone' 
>> disadvantage) 
> 
>	This could seriously be useful. 
> 
It's sort of what I was hoping "Normals Unbound" would be, actually... 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:50:13 -0800 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Organization: Satan's Children 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Cheaters and Balance 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> ---JJP3337  wrote: 
> > 
> > I have a playeer that had somehow managed to sneak fourteen 
> > extra points into his character....even though I had looked 
> > it over it seems he was... well... creative with his point totaling.... 
> > I am allowing him to continue to play with 
> > the character only because the group and ropleplaying have already 
> > established themselves as a superteam and shaking up his abilities and 
> > stats...or forcing in a new character would wreck the current momentum 
> > of the game. I should note that the character isn't really overbalancing 
> > he's a mostly skills guy in a 
> > supers game (200 points) and is the unofficial team leader at the moment... 
> > my only condition for allowing him to continue is that he fails to gain 
> > experience until he's paid for the extrat points...which seems fair...but the 
> > other players are grumbling even though they said he could continue 
> > also...what should I do...give the other playess the extra exp effectively 
> > putting my villians a a disadvantage...or let him continue with the behind the 
> > scenes mumbling from the other players...(I should also note this is a large 
> > group...7 players at peak) 
 
   I would say to just let them mumble and grumble.  When you hand out 
experience and he gets none, maybe they'll stop grumbling.  Possibly 
make a small point of allowing everyone to notice that they get 
experience points and he doesn't.  Or allow everyone another 14 points 
and don't give ANYONE any XP for several sessions, and see how they like 
that.... 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
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X-SMTP: helo mail.interhop.net from jprins@interhop.net server root@mail.interhop.net ip 204.50.138.29 
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:58:54 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>I dislike the idea of adding a "touch" sense group to the system partially 
>because it adds little as far as useful mechanics go.  Most of the 
>arguments I have seen in support of the sense group are to legitimize Flash 
>against it.  I have problems with that. 
 
Touch is a sense. When you get right down to it, it's probably the _only_ 
sense that all living beings have. The fact that HERO does not include this 
in its list of sense powers is IMHO completely illogical. 
 
For the record, I think HERO should list all the 'normal' senses on the 
Sense charts and give the corresponding cost for it - noting that normal 
beings get these senses 'free'. Then you'd have a standardized cost 
structure for when people want to 'buy back' senses. 
 
This is IMHO better than doing it through disadvantages. Why? And example: A 
blind man with active sonar 
 
Disadvantage Method: 
 
Active Sonar 15 CP 
Phys.Lim: Blind (Frequent, Slight) -10 CP - because blindness is less 
limiting when you've got sonar, right? 
 
Total Cost: 5 CP 
 
Power Buy-Back Method: 
 
Active Sonar 15 CP 
Buy-Back Normal Sight -25 CP (HSA2) 
 
Total Cost: -10 CP 
 
This makes more sense. Sure, Sonar-guy can see in the dark, but that's not 
enough of a counter to what he's losing when his sight goes - Active Sonar 
is not discriminatory like Normal Sight, it cannot percieve color, and is 
just as easily 'blinded' as Normal Sight is (noisy areas). Trading in Sight 
for Sonar should get you points back, not cost you points (as above). 
 
As for 'useful mechanics', adding in a Touch group pretty much requires 
other mechanics to be added into it. Like the appropriate PER modifiers for 
certain situations. What not having Touch sense means to a character - not 
so much in Flash terms (but in Flash terms as well), but in general when a 
being _lacks_ a particular sense - for example, Darkman (from the movies) 
lacks the sense of Pain. How does this change Darkman's world?  
 
Besides, what's wrong with 'justifying' flashes vs. various senses that, by 
all rights, people should have? Flash vs. Sense of Balance should be a 
legitimate power. And I can think of at least one (if not more) comic book 
villians who have had this power (Vertigo). Rare? Yes. Powerful? Yes. 
Abusive/Stupid? NO! Certainly no more abusive than Flash vs. Sight - a 
standard power most GMs won't bat an eye at. 
 
Touch is a sense. Moreover, it's a _common_, _necessary_ sense. We should 
have rules - both for its use (PER modifiers) and its absence. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 31 Mar 1998 18:11:41 -0500 
Lines: 31 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "HG" == Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> writes: 
 
HG> What I meant was that Dodge is equally useful against multiple 
HG> attackers, whereas Block is best against the first attack; 
 
Yep. 
 
HG> after a couple of attacks your chance to block is small. If you're 
HG> beset by a host of attackers, Dodge is your best bet. 
 
Well, as long as your (effective) Block OCV remains greater than or equal 
to the OCVs of your attackers, Block provides a statistically superior 
defense against melee attacks.  But if your effective Block OCV falls below 
the OCV of an attacker, you will probably wish you had Dodged instead. 
 
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--  
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 31 Mar 1998 18:19:29 -0500 
Lines: 39 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "JD" == Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net> writes: 
 
JD> When you block, you get to ACT BEFORE YOUR OPPONENT gets to act on the 
JD> next phase. 
 
Only if both the attacker and defender act on the same segment.  If you 
have a Speed 3 and your attacker has a Speed 6, and you Block his attack in 
segment 4, he will be able to attack you in segment 6.  You will not act 
first in segment 6 because you do not act in segment 6. 
 
You have three options at this point. 
 
1. Eat the attack.  I don't think so. 
 
2. Abort your segment 8 action phase for another defensive maneuver.  This 
   could even be another Block; the benefit to that is you do not suck the 
   -2 OCV penalty.  If you abort, I would suggest Dodge or Dive for Cover 
   to get out of his range (and hope he doesn't clobber you anyway). 
 
3. Continue to Block.  You suck a -2 OCV penalty on your Block roll, but 
   you do not lose your segment 8 action.  And if you Block successfully, 
   you *will* act before him in segment 8. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Advantages, Limitations, & Disadvantages 
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Date: 31 Mar 1998 18:23:00 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "AR" == Alex Rojas <rojasa@UTHSCSA.EDU> writes: 
 
AR> It's just a thought, but shouldn't Limitations and Disadvantages be 
AR> switched. 
 
No. 
 
An advantage on a power is advantageous.  A limitation on a power is 
limiting.  And a character disadvantage is disadvantageous to that 
character. 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:23:09 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re:  5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>In a message dated 3/31/98 2:43:33 PM, bob.greenwade@klock.com wrote: 
> 
><<1) Is there any real reason to not be able to buy DEF and BODY 
>separately for 5 pts each?>> 
> 
>Yes, actually. One could effectively restrain normals with a high DEF, low 
>BODY Entangle, and it would probably be too cheap. 
 
Add a restriction: DEF cannot be more than 2x BODY dice, and vice versa. So 
for 60 points you could have a 8 DEF, 4D6 Entangle, or a 4 DEF, 8D6 
Entangle. In a world where most supers toss 50-60 AP powers, this is not 
abusive, and allows for more variety at lower AP cost. A 30 AP RKA or EB 
will seriously wound Joe Normal - but a 30 AP Entangle, hey, he can get out 
of that with a little luck in a minute or two. I don't call that balance. 
You're better off with a 2D6 Ranged STR Drain to 'incapacitate' your foe 
than the Entangle... 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: EC Slots 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 31 Mar 1998 18:24:49 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
>>	(d)Force Field 20/20 (1/2 END) 
>> 50 
>>	(d)Missle Deflection (bullets, +2 to roll, linked to FF, costs END) 
>> 19 
 
BG>    Two Powers in different slots cannot be Linked.  The Missile 
BG> Deflection has to be taken outside the EC. 
 
They are not linked; they are both in slot "d".  And it appears that he 
took the EC bonus for the slot once, which is okay. 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 15:30:50 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re:  5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
To: John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
John and Ron Prins writes: 
 
> Add a restriction: DEF cannot be more than 2x BODY dice, and vice versa. So 
> for 60 points you could have a 8 DEF, 4D6 Entangle, or a 4 DEF, 8D6 
> Entangle. In a world where most supers toss 50-60 AP powers, this is not 
> abusive, and allows for more variety at lower AP cost. A 30 AP RKA or EB 
> will seriously wound Joe Normal - but a 30 AP Entangle, hey, he can get out 
> of that with a little luck in a minute or two. I don't call that balance. 
> You're better off with a 2D6 Ranged STR Drain to 'incapacitate' your foe 
> than the Entangle... 
 
In general, given a choice between 1 DEF (for an entangle) and 1d (for body), 
the point of DEF is always better.  This is why you can't buy def separately... 
I could see +6 points per point of defense, +4 point per die for body. 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:34:19 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: [Real Champions! (off topic)] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
Michael wrote: 
> The University Of Kentucky is the 1998 NCAA Basketball Champions!!! 
>  
> GO BIG BLUE... 
>  
> Hey, this was Champions related :-) 
>  
 
> http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
>  
 
Fwap!! 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:41:19 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Testing! 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA wrote: 
 
> OK, ye 'ol Puma make stab at fixing email problem! Say if it works! 
 
No attached junk here. 
  
> Now we return to our regularly scheduled topic... 
>  
> 	Are there any other Champions gamers out there that also like 
> Japanese Animation? I'd really like some Champions supplements to 
> cover anime. Imagine your heroes meeting Ryoko from Tenchi Muyo! ^_^; 
 
My website is jammed with a slew of anime adaptions (with more on the 
way).   A quick list of who's avalaible?  Okay. 
 
A-ko, B-ko, Sonnet, Tetsuo Shima, the cast from Ninja Scroll (all except 
one), Ryouga Hibiki, the cast of Gunsmith Cats, Leona Ozaki, Bonaparte and 
the Puma Sisters, Urd, Skuld and Belldandy, Battle Angel, the M-66, the 
AMP and Ryoko (who is a whopping 930 points...) 
 
I also have material relating to 3x3 Eyes (under construction), Silent 
Mobius (ditto), Dragonball Z (ditto) and Kazei Five, my home-brewed 
anime/cyberpunk game. 
 
Oh, and I'm willing to take submissions if anyone has their own adaptions 
to send in. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:42:41 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Testing! 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Nic Neidenbach wrote: 
 
> >	Are there any other Champions gamers out there that also like 
> >Japanese Animation? I'd really like some Champions supplements to 
> >cover anime. Imagine your heroes meeting Ryoko from Tenchi Muyo! ^_^; 
>  
> There certainly are. :) 
>  
> Check out Michael Surbrook's pages for a great place to start. His Kazei 
> Five material is anime inspired cyber-punkish RP, and he also has a great 
> stuff for RP in the world of Silent Mobius and Dragonball Z. 
 
Well, the Dragonball stuff is waiting until RTG releases their sourcebook. 
  
> http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/anime.html 
 
Oops... I just realized, I forgot to put this in my last reply... 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:43:13 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Opening Day 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On 31 Mar 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> >>>>> "MS" == Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> writes: 
>  
> MS> PLAY BALL!!! 
>  
> Oh, man! we went through this last year! 
>  
> A BASEBALL GAME IS NOT COMBAT! 
>  
> And that is all I will say this time around. 
 
Combat?  I never said anything about combat... 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 31 Mar 1998 18:44:01 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "JaRP" == John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> writes: 
 
JaRP> Touch is a sense. 
 
I never said it was not. 
 
I am saying that it causes too many questions and problems as far as game 
mechanics go, without adding anything significant to offset those problems. 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:44:41 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
To: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Testing! 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Brian Wong wrote: 
 
> > 	Are there any other Champions gamers out there that also like 
> > Japanese Animation? I'd really like some Champions supplements to 
> > cover anime. Imagine your heroes meeting Ryoko from Tenchi Muyo! ^_^; 
>  
> 	Lots. You need to get together with M. Surbrook. :) Can't remember 
> his website right now, but I'd be suprised if his reply to you doesn't beat 
> mine. :) He's very active here. 
 
Brian?  It's www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html 
  
> 	I myself am among those lots... The 'drawn by me' art on my site is 
> all anime-isc. But it's nothing proffessional.  
 
I've got some animeish artwork as well.  Goto 
www.access.digex.net/~susano/gallery.html 
  
> 	But I'd say somewhere between 50-80% of Champion's fans are anime fans. 
> They've yet to exploit that in anything other than the old Robot Warriors, who's 
> art was so bad I had to stop reading it and eventually sold my copy. 
 
Whew... don't remind me. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:45:52 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Testing! 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> At 11:28 AM 3/31/1998 -0600, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA wrote: 
 
> > Are there any other Champions gamers out there that also like 
> >Japanese Animation? I'd really like some Champions supplements to 
> >cover anime. Imagine your heroes meeting Ryoko from Tenchi Muyo! ^_^; 
>  
>    The last I heard, Michael Surbrook was working up a campaign book for 
> his anime styled campaign, Kazei 5.  It's a start, at any rate. 
 
Psst?  Bob?  My first draft is in Bruce Harlick's hot little hands as we 
speak... Did I beat ya and get it in first? 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Point Base/Active Points 
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:46:41 -0600 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Most people seem to be ~100 point base (some up to 200). 
OK, now big part! What's the ACTIVE cost of you characters. 
IE: 250 point character with -1 power limitation on everything 
equals 500 active point character! Come on, 'fess up! ^_^; 
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
	"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"  
					- Joan of Arc's .sig 
     Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
 
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X-Sender: empulse@usa.net (Unverified) 
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 15:51:38 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com> 
Subject: Re: Another Ultimate Super City? [looong tirade] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 06:54 PM 3/31/98 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< Well, as has been suggested, split it into eras.  List what is common to 
>cities in general, and campaign settings in particular.  I do think something 
>like The Ultimate Fantasy City would be a nice suppliment for Fantasy Hero. 
>(Especially if it could possibly sell to players of that _other_ game.) >> 
> 
>  Splitting it makes the books a little more focused (by genre), but there is 
>alo the matter of  just how many Fantasy Hero players go to the extent of 
>designing their own cities, and how many of them would buy the book to use as 
>a guide. 
> 
>  I'm not totally ruling it out, I just don't see it as being a big seller. 
> 
 
Also, Champions games tend to settle into one city or area, while the FRPGs 
I've played, and the Fantasy Hero campaign I ran, tend to move across a 
wide area in the course of the game. I don't think a city would be used as 
much in most Fantasy games. 
 
However, a series of articles on city construction in Hero for a RPG 
magazine would be very welcome. :) 
 
-Nic 
 
      +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ 
      |                        naneiden@iswest.com                         | 
      |               Justice, Like Lightning, Thunderbolts!               | 
      |         http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/thunder.html        | 
      |                         Costumed Heroines                          | 
      |          http://www.iswest.com/~naneiden/comics/index.html         | 
      +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:54:59 EST 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Another Ultimate Super City? [looong tirade] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< Well, as has been suggested, split it into eras.  List what is common to 
cities in general, and campaign settings in particular.  I do think something 
like The Ultimate Fantasy City would be a nice suppliment for Fantasy Hero. 
(Especially if it could possibly sell to players of that _other_ game.) >> 
 
  Splitting it makes the books a little more focused (by genre), but there is 
alo the matter of  just how many Fantasy Hero players go to the extent of 
designing their own cities, and how many of them would buy the book to use as 
a guide. 
 
  I'm not totally ruling it out, I just don't see it as being a big seller. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:57:58 EST 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< Oh, I definately think there are. Look at Justice Not Law and Kingdom of 
Champions for examples. >> 
 
  And they serve as examples of saleability, also. The fact that we still have 
plenty of copies of JNL and KoC is very telling, especially when you consider 
that Eye For An Eye (another Dark Champions supplement) and The Ultimate 
Martial Artist both were  sold out before we even took over distribution of 
the 4th Ed book from ICE. 
 
  Something tells me we're better off investing in the production of books 
like E4E and UMA moreso than books like JNL and KoC. Just a thought. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:16:01 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Anime Sourceworks 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:58 PM 3/31/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
>cc: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
>Subject: Re: Testing! 
>On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>> At 11:28 AM 3/31/1998 -0600, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA wrote: 
> 
>> > Are there any other Champions gamers out there that also like 
>> >Japanese Animation? I'd really like some Champions supplements to 
>> >cover anime. Imagine your heroes meeting Ryoko from Tenchi Muyo! ^_^; 
>>  
>>    The last I heard, Michael Surbrook was working up a campaign book for 
>> his anime styled campaign, Kazei 5.  It's a start, at any rate. 
> 
>Psst?  Bob?  My first draft is in Bruce Harlick's hot little hands as we 
>speak... Did I beat ya and get it in first? 
 
   No, I caught your post right after you mailed it, and I got mine in 
ahead of yours by about a week and a half.  I think Shelley's PRIMUS 
manuscript likewise beat me by a couple of days. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:18:46 -0800 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re:  5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 05:13 PM 3/31/1998 EST, Hero Games wrote: 
> 
>In a message dated 3/31/98 2:43:33 PM, bob.greenwade@klock.com wrote: 
> 
><<1) Is there any real reason to not be able to buy DEF and BODY 
>separately for 5 pts each?>> 
> 
>Yes, actually. One could effectively restrain normals with a high DEF, low 
>BODY Entangle, and it would probably be too cheap. 
 
   The thing is, though, that high-damage characters (like most supers) 
could tear through the thing in nothing flat.  Sure a normal could be 
pretty easily bound by an 8 DEF/2 BODY Entangle, but anyone doing 12 BODY 
to it (not too hard even in a 10DC game) gets a full phase after shredding 
it.  Even 7 DEF/3 BODY wouldn't be that far off the mark. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:20:34 -0800 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Advantages, Limitations, & Disadvantages 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:30 PM 3/31/1998 -0600, Alex Rojas wrote: 
>It's just a thought,  but shouldn't Limitations and Disadvantages be 
switched. 
> 
>If you buy Advantages for a power, shouldn't the 'limitations' of the power 
>be called Disadvantages.  And 'disadvantages' for the character are 
>actually Limitations on both, how much you have to spend, and how your 
>character reacts to situations. 
 
   Logically and semantically, you're probably right. 
   Unfortunately, you came along about 17 years too late. 
   (Hey, the Hero System is almost 18 years old now!  Shall we register it 
to vote?) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:26:17 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Cheaters and Balance 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 02:50 PM 3/31/1998 -0800, Captain Spith wrote: 
>> ---JJP3337  wrote: 
>> > 
>> > I have a playeer that had somehow managed to sneak fourteen 
>> > extra points into his character....even though I had looked 
>> > it over it seems he was... well... creative with his point totaling.... 
>> > I am allowing him to continue to play with 
>> > the character only because the group and ropleplaying have already 
>> > established themselves as a superteam and shaking up his abilities and 
>> > stats...or forcing in a new character would wreck the current momentum 
>> > of the game. I should note that the character isn't really overbalancing 
>> > he's a mostly skills guy in a 
>> > supers game (200 points) and is the unofficial team leader at the 
moment... 
>> > my only condition for allowing him to continue is that he fails to gain 
>> > experience until he's paid for the extrat points...which seems 
fair...but the 
>> > other players are grumbling even though they said he could continue 
>> > also...what should I do...give the other playess the extra exp 
effectively 
>> > putting my villians a a disadvantage...or let him continue with the 
behind the 
>> > scenes mumbling from the other players...(I should also note this is a 
large 
>> > group...7 players at peak) 
> 
>   I would say to just let them mumble and grumble.  When you hand out 
>experience and he gets none, maybe they'll stop grumbling.  Possibly 
>make a small point of allowing everyone to notice that they get 
>experience points and he doesn't.  Or allow everyone another 14 points 
>and don't give ANYONE any XP for several sessions, and see how they like 
>that.... 
 
   I've found myself in a similar situation as GM, though the discrepancy 
was due to an honest math error rather than creative bookkeeping.  What I 
did was just apply the next several experience points (18 in this case) 
toward the discrepancy until it was paid for.  It seemed the most fair way 
to go. 
   In a case of "creative bookkeeping," though, I'd probably find some 
ability or abilities on the character's sheet that wasn't vital to his 
background and hadn't been used thus far, and dock it off.  I'm a little 
more harsh against sneaks than I am against goofers (probably because I'm a 
frequent goofer myself). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:28:02 -0800 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: EC Slots 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 06:24 PM 3/31/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
> 
>>> (d)Force Field 20/20 (1/2 END) 
>>> 50 
>>> (d)Missle Deflection (bullets, +2 to roll, linked to FF, costs END) 
>>> 19 
> 
>BG>    Two Powers in different slots cannot be Linked.  The Missile 
>BG> Deflection has to be taken outside the EC. 
> 
>They are not linked; they are both in slot "d".  And it appears that he 
>took the EC bonus for the slot once, which is okay. 
 
   Mostly correct; more correct than my initial assessment, anyway.  It 
looks to me, though, like the Linked Limitation is taken on the Missile 
Deflection.  I'm not 100% clear on whether this is forbidden in the 
description of ECs, or given as the correct way of doing it. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:31:29 -0800 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Opening Day 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 02:08 PM 3/31/1998 -0800, John Desmarais wrote: 
>---Michael Nunn  wrote: 
>> PLAY BALL!!! 
>> So just what is the DCV of a 90 mph fastball? 
> 
>Wouldn't you be targeting the OCV of the pitcher (as with missile 
>deflection/reflection or block)?? 
 
   Missile Reflection vs Thrown, to be sure.  The bat as a focus, probably 
OAF and possibly requiring a PS: Baseball Player Skill Roll. 
 
>> Or the OCV of 300 hitter? 
> 
>Many levels with "Hit small round thing with stick". 
 
   Just Skill Levels w/Missile Reflection, or maybe Skill Levels w/Baseball 
Skills. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:35:00 -0600 (CST) 
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com> 
To: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
cc: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org, champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re:  5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Hero Games wrote: 
 
>  
> In a message dated 3/31/98 2:43:33 PM, bob.greenwade@klock.com wrote: 
>  
> <<1) Is there any real reason to not be able to buy DEF and BODY 
> separately for 5 pts each?>> 
>  
> Yes, actually. One could effectively restrain normals with a high DEF, low 
> BODY Entangle, and it would probably be too cheap. 
 
Good point; instead of 5/5, how about something more like 3/7?   
 
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver --------- 
  Webpage:  http://www.io.com/~traveler  /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists 
  GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life  ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing, 
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www  |  that all points of view have 
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet  |  something of value to offer. 
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com |  --David Brin, "Otherness" 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:41:20 -0600 (CST) 
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com> 
To: John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
> >In a message dated 3/31/98 2:43:33 PM, bob.greenwade@klock.com wrote: 
> > 
> ><<1) Is there any real reason to not be able to buy DEF and BODY 
> >separately for 5 pts each?>> 
> > 
> >Yes, actually. One could effectively restrain normals with a high DEF, low 
> >BODY Entangle, and it would probably be too cheap. 
>  
> Add a restriction: DEF cannot be more than 2x BODY dice, and vice versa. So 
> for 60 points you could have a 8 DEF, 4D6 Entangle, or a 4 DEF, 8D6 
> Entangle. In a world where most supers toss 50-60 AP powers, this is not 
> abusive, and allows for more variety at lower AP cost. A 30 AP RKA or EB 
> will seriously wound Joe Normal - but a 30 AP Entangle, hey, he can get out 
> of that with a little luck in a minute or two. I don't call that balance. 
> You're better off with a 2D6 Ranged STR Drain to 'incapacitate' your foe 
> than the Entangle... 
 
That won't fix the basic problem; DEF is inherently more useful than BODY, 
in that DEF doesn't go away when it gets hit (unless it's overwhelmed), 
while BODY does (and if a shot is powerful enough to overwhelm DEF, it 
will destroy an equal amount of BODY...) 
 
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver --------- 
  Webpage:  http://www.io.com/~traveler  /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists 
  GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life  ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing, 
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www  |  that all points of view have 
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet  |  something of value to offer. 
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com |  --David Brin, "Otherness" 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 19:46:01 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: CHAR: BTILC - David Lo Pan 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
[whew... looks like I finally finished, eh?  Hmmm... I guess I should do 
Devil Hunter Yoko now...] 
 
"Who are these people?  Friends of yours? 
Now this really pisses me off to no end!" 
 
DAVID LO PAN 
 
Designers Notes: 
In the "Big Troulbe in Little China" inbtro I gave a short history of Lo 
Pan.  For convience sake, I'm going to repeat that here. 
 
In the distant past (272 BC to be exact), the first sovereign emperor of 
China united the seven warring states into one country.  Along the way, he 
subjugated a man by the name of Lo Pan and eternally cursed him with a 
body of 'no flesh'. Now, although this curse effectively made Lo Pan 
immortal, it also rendered him powerless, since his body of 'no flesh' 
meant he existed as an insubstantial ghost.  In order to regain his 
natural form, he had to find a green-eyed girl and marry her.  This would 
appease Ching Dai, the God of the East - Lo Pan's patron - but in order to 
appease the emperor, Lo Pan would then have to sacrifice this woman. 
There were a few drawbacks to this cure, however.  The first was that 
green-eyed women are exceedingly rare in China.  The second is that she 
would have to be brave enough to embrace the burning blade and tame the 
savage heart. 
 
It is now 2270 years later and Lo Pan has yet to find the girl that will 
allow him to regain his corporeal form (and go on to rule the world from 
beyond the grave), but he keeps trying.  Backed by his own private army, a 
trio of powerful sorcerers and several supernatural monsters, Lo Pan is 
the de facto ruler of Chinatown, doing his best to find the girl of his 
prophecy. 
 
Description: 
David Lo Pan comes in two forms, the 'Ten-foot Tall Roadblock' and the 
'Little Old Basket-case On Wheels'.  The 'Roadblock' body is his ghost 
form.  He stands well over six feet tall (probably close to seven), and is 
dressed in elaborately patterned Chinese robes.  This from is very 
pale-faced with dark circles under the eyes. 
 
The Little Old Basket-case On Wheels is Lo Pan's corporeal form.  In this 
body is appears immensely old, his skin mottled, hair white and wispy and 
his movements very slow and deliberate.  He is a cripple in this body, 
confined to a motorized wheelchair.  This doesn't stop him from having a 
very nasty (and short) temper, however.  
 
Powers Notes: 
It goes without saying that Lo Pan is a very powerful sorcerer.  His 
favorite spell seems to be a form of Flash attack that appears as a 
brilliant beam of light launched from his mouth and eyes.  We don't see 
him cast to many other spells, however, mainly because most of the time he 
is either a frail old man or intangible to the rest of the world.  He does 
counter Egg Shen's 'mystic warrior spell' (see Egg Shen for more details) 
with one of his own.  After hearing what the Hero Mailing List had to say, 
I tend to agree with the assessment that the spells being cast were some 
form of Ego Attack, and that Egg and Lo Pan were using the optional Ego 
Combat maneuvers from "The Ultimate Mentalist" (as well as some of the 
optional ideas from "Mystic Masters"). 
 
An important note about Lo Pan's 'Roadblock' form.  He is fully Desolid in 
this form and cannot affect the material world.  His Power Pool is going 
to need the +2 Advantage of 'Affects Solid' on all spells, and some GMs 
may want to disallow this Advantage all together.  He cannot be harmed in 
this form either (Jack drives his truck right through him) and can pass 
through walls and other barries with ease.  GMs might want to rule that Lo 
Pan can be harmed/stopped by certain types of mystical wards (such as the 
ofuda so common to many supernatural anime). 
 
In his 'Basket-case' form Lo Pan has no powers to speak of, with the 
exception that he is over 2000 years old and is still alive.  He does have 
a mean streak and a nasty temper, however. 
 
Disadvantages Notes: 
Lo Pan is almost the stereotypical megalomaniac would-be world conqueror. 
He considers himself a "warrior trapped in this old man's crippled body", 
and in the words of Jack Burton he "wants to go on to rule the world from 
beyond the grave".  He is quite evil, ordering the execution of the boss 
of the Chang Sings, dealing in slaves and threatening people with such 
fates as the "Hell Were People Are Skinned Alive" and to "flay them till 
their flesh falls off".  Not a nice guy. 
 
The rest of his disads should be pretty self explanatory. 
 
The Character: 
 
The Ten-foot Tall Roadblock: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		15		0 
Dex		20		30 
Con		20		20 
Body		12		2 
Int		20		10 
Ego		23		26 
Pre		25		15 
Com		14		2 
PD		8		6 
ED		8		4 
Spd		4		10 
Rec		6		0 
End		50		5 
Stun		30		3 
Char Total			133 
Power Total			484 
Total Cost			617 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
67	Desolidification: Invisible Power Effects (+1/2), 0 END, 
	Persistant, Always on (-1/2) 
7	Growth: 1 Level, 0 END, Persistant, Always on 
	+5 STR, +1 Body, +1 Stun, -1" KB, 400 lbs 
 
50	50 Point Variable Power Pool: Sorcery 
33	VPP Control Cost: No Time, Limited SFX: Eastern Sorcery 
80	Flash Attack: 4d6, Full Phase (-1/2), Affects Solid (+2), END 12 
19	Life Support: Immune to Aging, Diease, Heat, Cold; Does not 
	eat/sleep of excrete 
12	Missile Deflection: All Ranged Attacks, +4 OCV, Magical Attacks 
	Only (-1) 
15	Mind Link: Guardian, Any Distance, 0 END  
13	Multiform: David Lo Pan (The little old basket-case on wheels);  
	Full Phase (-1/2) 
 
2	KS: Chinese Alchemy 13- 
2	KS: Chinese Culture and Civilization 13- 
2	KS: Chinese History 13- 
2	KS: Chinese Legends and Lore 13- 
2	KS: Chinese Philosophy 13- 
2	KS: Demons and other mystical creatures 13- 
2	KS: Ritual Sorcery 13- 
2	KS: Sorcery 13- 
3	Stealth 13- 
3	Tactics 13- 
1	WF: Thrown Knife 
3	Scholar 
50	Base: The Wing Cong Exchange 
30	Follower: The Three Storms (3 x 100 point base) 
40	Follower: The Wing Cong (60 x 50 point base) 
10	Follower: Guardian (1 x 50 point base) 
15	Follower: Ogre (1x 75 point base) 
10	Perk: Wealthy 
7	Lang: Cantonese Chinese (native), Mandarin Chinese (native),  
	English (fluent) 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
15	DF: Great Size and Elaborate Traditional Dress 
5	Hunted: Egg Shen (Less Pow) 8- 
25	Phys: Insubstantial 
20	Psych: Meglomania (wants to go on to rule the world from beyond 
	the grave) 
15	Psych: Cold, cruel and a touch sadistic 
15	Psych: Overconfidence 
20	Rep: Lo Pan, ancient (and evil) Chinese sorcerer and  
	godfather of Little China (ext) 14- 
5	Rival: Egg Shen 
33977	Ten-foot Tall Roadblock Bonus 
 
The Little Old Basket-case On Wheels: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		0		-10 
Dex		8		-6 
Con		8		-4 
Body		10		0 
Int		20		10 
Ego		23		26 
Pre		8		-2 
Com		6		-2 
PD		1		1 
ED		1		-1 
Spd		1		0 
Rec		2		0 
End		16		0 
Stun		14		0 
Char Total			12 
Power Total			18 
Total Cost			30 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
3	Life Support: Immune to Aging 
-12	Running: -6" 
5	Running: +3", 0 END, No-noncombat run (-1/4), OIF: motorized 
	wheelchair 
 
2	KS: Chinese Alchemy 13- 
2	KS: Chinese Culture and Civilization 13- 
2	KS: Chinese History 13- 
2	KS: Chinese Legends and Lore 13- 
2	KS: Chinese Philosophy 13- 
2	KS: Demons and other mystical creatures 13- 
2	KS: Ritual Sorcery 13- 
2	KS: Sorcery 13- 
3	Tactics 13- 
3	Scholar 
 
Disadvantages 
0	Base 
10	Age: 60+ 
15	DF: *Very* old 
5	Hunted: Egg Shen (Less Pow) 8- 
15	Phys: Crippled Body 
20	Psych: Meglomania (wants to go on to rule the world from beyond 
	the grave) 
15	Psych: Cold, cruel and a touch sadistic 
10	Public ID: Owner of the Wing Kong Exchange 
 
(David Lo Pan created by Gary Oldman, David Weinstein, W.D. Richter and  
John Carpenter.  Character sheet created by Michael Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:57:47 -0800 
To: Champions Listserv <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions of the Windy City 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:21 PM 3/31/1998 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
   [I changed the Subject header to reflect the topic drift; I hope I'm not 
being presumptuous in my choice of title.  And interestingly, this post 
didn't come to me by way of owner-champ-l, unlike most of your others.  It 
looks like Michael Surbrook has become my Special Friend.] 
>> >    Some potentially good locations ...... 
>> 
>> What is "good adventuring information" ? 
> 
> Interesting places to send players with streetwise skill.  "Cool" 
>locations for combat.  (Top of the Sears Tower -- "Um, I'm through the 
>window.  How many inches high are we?") 
 
   Definitely.  (Though I think I'd recommend sticking to fictional 
locations for the seedier side of society...) 
 
>> What I'm trying to get at is that I would not be interested in 
>> paying money for a Chicago sourcebook, 
>> for example, unless it concentrated on things that 
>> would make a setting in Chicago unique that I could not find just by doing 
>> a minimal amount of research.  Further, I don't know that there are enough 
>> of these unique factors that producing a sourcebook is justified. 
> 
> Oh, I definately think there are.  Look at Justice Not Law and 
>Kingdom of Champions for examples.  Though I'd like to see a book just on 
>London. 
 
   Good idea.  Someone tell Phil Masters!  (Or wait, didn't I read 
somewhere that he actually lives a ways off from London?) 
 
> In a Chicago book I'd place some interesting "normal" NPCs, a hero 
>team to either supplant or suppliment, a villian team, and a few solo 
>villians and heroes.  Many would have a local slant. 
 
   A word of advice on the hero team: at the same time that you try to give 
them local flavor, try to make them as encompassing as you can so that 
whatever niche a Chicago-based PC team fits into, they can slide into a 
different one.  The Seattle team I have planned for NWC, Second Authority, 
is such a group; if the PCs turn out to be standard four-color heroes, they 
can "soak up" the corporate and street adventure possibilities, while PCs 
who are more street-oriented can leave Second Authority to handle the more 
high-profile cases. 
   And please, make at least two or three local villain teams.  You might 
even consider taking an established Champions Universe villain team (like 
the Crusher Gang) and locating them there.  (With Starburst as the head of 
the Great Northwestern Shipping and Transport Corporation, where better to 
put the HQ of Project Sunburst than Seattle?) 
 
> I'd add information on the local presense of various branches of 
>organized crime as well as the major Villian Agencies -- Viper Base, Demon 
>Base, Genocide Presence, Terror Inc Hideout, A small base of Dr. 
>Destroyer's Agents, etc. 
 
   NWC will feature a section of "Outside Influences," with all this plus 
notes on Card Shark, PRIMUS, UNTIL, VOICE, and "conventional" organized 
crime (with real-life notes on whatever activities are going on with black 
street gangs, yakuza, tongs, LCN, and other groups, but fictional crime 
families).  I recommend that you go through the organizations of the 
Champions Universe and provide at least general notes on as many of them as 
you can manage. 
 
> I'd probably put in some new information on shady experiments 
>being run at the various Universities.  And I'd outline these 
>Universities, especially their strengths, as places for PCs to work at or 
>attend in secret ID.  (In my last campaign, we had two college professors 
>and three college students, none with any secret ID connection). 
> 
> Any other requests? 
 
   How about nationally noted corporations, both real and fictional? 
   Local business chains would be good for atmosphere, too.  You should 
need no more than a page or two to cover them, and have the artist use the 
locations in question in the backgrounds of illustrations. 
   Historical highlights would be good, too, especially Western, Pulp, 
Golden Age, and Silver Age data.  *Especially* pulp; if you can scatter 
notes throughout the book that would be helpful for an Untouchables 
campaign, you'll have a special "hook" that is unique to your book (at 
least, among Hero Plus regional sourcebooks). 
   Look around for unusual features in the area, and think about what can 
be done with these features as adventure hooks or complications.  I once 
wrote a (horribly long and cheesy) story which opened with Godzilla rising 
from Lake Michigan and stomping O'Hare Airport (exactly five seconds after 
a Jim Phelps pastiche had been told... well, I'm sure you get the idea). 
Look at the details of a place, and let your imagination run wild.  Even 
apparently stupid ideas can become gems. 
   Also, try to make up reasonable excuses for superheroes from elsewhere 
to come to Chicago.  This can include villain-based hooks, but it doesn't 
have to be limited to that.  For example, you could locate some kind of 
resource there that they'd want to visit.  (I may well locate Project: 
Lifeline near Portland.) 
   Throughout what you write, make three assumptions:  1. The GM is running 
a game taking place in Chicago.  2. The GM is running a game taking place 
somewhere other than Chicago, but with frequent to occasional trips there. 
3. The GM is probably never going to bring the PCs anywhere Chicago, but 
will be using the characters and institutions you write about for 
background in the campaign newspaper.  These are mututally exclusive 
assumptions, but you can't predict which is going to be the case in any 
given campaign, so if you write to cover them all, well, then you have them 
all covered. 
   And do use KoC and JNL (and probably SA:CoH) as templates, if not for 
organization then at least for ways of thinking. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:01:58 -0800 
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org, susano@access.digex.net 
Subject: Re: CHAR: BTILC - David Lo Pan 
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
-> From susano@access.digex.net Tue Mar 31 16:45:54 1998 
->  
-> 33977	Ten-foot Tall Roadblock Bonus 
->  
 
Wow. I thought my write-ups were excessively expensive, but I try to keep 
the bonus under 10,000pts. 
 
							-Sam 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 20:11:13 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>JaRP> Touch is a sense. 
> 
>I never said it was not. 
> 
>I am saying that it causes too many questions and problems as far as game 
>mechanics go, without adding anything significant to offset those problems. 
 
Your logic doesn't follow. _A_ ruling would be better than no ruling. It 
would be easiest to call Touch a single sense, including Pressure, 
Heat/Cold, and Pain senses. Flash vs. Sense of Balance can easily be 
simulated with a DEX drain, but the loss of the sense of Touch cannot be 
simulated adequately without some new rules being introduced. 
 
At the moment, we have no rules - and look at the confusion it causes on 
this list. Are you saying a definitive ruling by the HERO folks would make 
things worse? AFAIK, it's only when they make ambigious rulings (Linked...) 
that they make things worse...^_^. 
 
Hopefully, the material in HSA2 will be expanded upon in 5th Edition HERO. 
The explanation for a loss of Touch sense is fine (-3 to certain skills - 
though I'd say most DEX based skills should be included, not just 'hand' 
skills), but the loss of a sense of Pain should be explored as well (how 
this affects STUN damage, for example). 
 
Sticking your head in the sand isn't a solution, Rat. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:15:41 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Team Tactics 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:34 PM 3/31/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
>Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
>Subject: Re: Team Tactics  
>> >I don't understand why getting an opponent up in the air would make him 
>> >easier to hit with ranged attacks or flying Move Throughs.  Is this 
because 
>> >you would have eliminated any cover he may have been behind? 
>> 
>>    No, it's because he's in an uncontrolled free-fall and thus at DCV 0 (or 
>> DCV Based on Velocity, if you prefer). 
> 
> I'm wondering where the rules are that state this.  I'm personally 
>not sure if I'd give DCV 0, though Velocity-based isn't bad.  I'd probably 
>go for 1/2 DCV. 
 
   I checked, and couldn't find a rule one way or the other.  Frankly I'm 
prone to go your way of 1/2 DCV when free falling.  (Which is indeed easier 
to hit than full DCV.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:15:57 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:18 PM 3/31/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
>Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
>Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
> Actually, I'm almost positive that Classic Organizations had a 
>character with ranged, targetting, discriminatory touch. 
 
   I'm not sure where my copy is at right now, so I can neither confirm nor 
contradict this... but I'd sure like it if someone where to point out which 
character does this. 
 
> It's valid in the sense that Hero should cover as much as 
>possible, and adding a Touch sense group would not be unbalancing -- it's 
>be rarely used, but I find many enhanced senses to be rarely used. 
 
   Precisely.  Just because it's rarely done in the comics doesn't mean it 
should never be done in the game. 
 
> Next -- add taste to the smell sense group. 
 
   But if we put Taste in the Sight Sense Group, would that help prevent 
excessivly skimpy or gaudy costumes? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 20:17:37 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: BTILC - David Lo Pan 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Sam Bell wrote: 
 
> -> From susano@access.digex.net Tue Mar 31 16:45:54 1998 
> ->  
> -> 33977	Ten-foot Tall Roadblock Bonus 
> ->  
>  
> Wow. I thought my write-ups were excessively expensive, but I try to keep 
> the bonus under 10,000pts. 
 
Uh... ummm... what the hell? 
 
That's supposed to be 397 point bonus. 
 
How *did* I type that one? 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca> 
From: "Vance Scott" <b1tlbx98@pop1.sympatico.ca> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 20:33:22 -500 
Subject: Re: Team Tactics 
Reply-to: vances@sympatico.ca 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> Let's see.... 
>  
> Brass - an esoteric martial artist 
> Brawn - a brick with some mystical potential 
> Firewalker - energy projector (flames) with damage shield 
> Gold - ion-based (very little known of her powers, but she's shown a killing 
> attack, 
>          and does not have complete control of her powers) 
> Psiclone - telepathy, mind control, 50 STR TK, and a vertigo attack 
> Shyft - teleporter with many tricks 
> Solace - light-based, can create Armour Usable By Others, manifest a 
> mystical 
>              energy sword, and has some healing 
> Structure - can take on the properties of any material he touches (but can't 
> always 
>                  control it) 
> Techno - a 4' gadgeteer 
> Walker - described in the files as "balls nasty", has esoteric martial arts 
> (is Brass' 
>               teacher) and excellent weapons skills. 
 
> I don't know very much about the characters other than Psiclone 
> except for what has been seen in actual game play.  My character hasn't had 
> a chance to talk to her teammates much since she got the leadership.  In 
> fact, she's only been leader for about an hour game time.  :) 
 
Here's my advice. 
 
Know yourself and your allies. Become familiar with the strengths and  
weaknesses of yourself and your team mates.  Get to know the  
capablities of your team mates! 
 
Know your enemies. Knowing your enemies' strengths and weaknesses is  
critical to defeating an opponent of equal or greater strength.  
 
Try to apply your strength against your enemies weakness and hide  
your weakness from your enemy. ie (put vulnerable characters in the  
rear during an assault, try to force the battle so your team mates  
face opponents they have an advantage over. Characters with ranged  
attacks should try to maintain their distance from close in  
fighters.  Have your mentalists attack the weak willed bricks,  
occupy your opponent's mentalists with strong willed martial artists  
or other team mates with appropriate defenses.) 
 
Recognize weak and strong positions of the battle field. Occupy the  
strong position and avoid the weak positions. If possible use the  
battlefield against your opponent and place him in the weak position. 
ie. (During battles near water, or on a roof top try to place the  
enemy between you and the edge of the roof or the water so they'll be  
the one knocked back into the water or over the edge of the roof.)     
 
Threat Assessment: Assess the most critical threat to your forces and  
eliminate it, or neutralize it as quickly as possible.  
ie. (Gang up on those opponents that are the most dangerous   
to your team, and to victory. Don't be afraid to concentrate your  
fire on a single, or few opponents. Characters with exotic attacks,  
which most of my team members are either vulnerable to, or don't have  
defenses against receive the first helping of hot lead, knuckle  
sandwiches, and energy bolts sizzlers.) 
 
Try to apply superior forces against an opponent during every  
battle. This isn't always possible, but it's definitely worth  
striving for. ie. (Try to encourage your opponents to divide their  
forces and than attack the separated group with superior numbers.  
Have a speedster/flyer lead a portion of your opponents after him  
and than ambush the chasers or assault the remaining forces.) 
 
Finally in the words of General Thomas J. "Stonewall" Jackson,  
"Mystify, Mislead, and Surprise!" 
 
Without a hex map the battle really takes place in the mind of the  
GM, so get to know your GM and what she/he thinks are good tactics.   
If you use a hex map for combat you'll be able to employ numerous  
strategies to minimumize your opponents' strength, and maximumize  
your own. 
 
       Try reading Sun Tzu's the Art of War. It's not that long or  
expensive, and its easily understood a rarity among it's rivals. 
 
 
Vance Scott 
 
Vanquisher of all foes 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:33:58 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The Compleat Fantasy City 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:51 PM 3/31/1998 -0800, Nic Neidenbach wrote: 
>At 06:54 PM 3/31/98 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
>><< Well, as has been suggested, split it into eras.  List what is common to 
>>cities in general, and campaign settings in particular.  I do think 
something 
>>like The Ultimate Fantasy City would be a nice suppliment for Fantasy Hero. 
>>(Especially if it could possibly sell to players of that _other_ game.) >> 
>> 
>>  Splitting it makes the books a little more focused (by genre), but 
there is 
>>alo the matter of  just how many Fantasy Hero players go to the extent of 
>>designing their own cities, and how many of them would buy the book to 
use as 
>>a guide. 
>> 
>>  I'm not totally ruling it out, I just don't see it as being a big seller. 
> 
>Also, Champions games tend to settle into one city or area, while the FRPGs 
>I've played, and the Fantasy Hero campaign I ran, tend to move across a 
>wide area in the course of the game. I don't think a city would be used as 
>much in most Fantasy games. 
 
   Don't be too sure.  It's been production and financial problems, and not 
lack of popularity, that have kept Flying Buffalo's award-winning CityBook 
series going slow (and may have killed it after CB7).  I've used the books 
as the basis for a campaign in the past, and they form the basis for my 
current Fantasy Hero pbem.  I doubt that I'm the only one that's run a 
largely city-based campaign, either (and I'm not just thinking of the 
campaigns run by the guys at Flying Buffalo either!). 
   Besides which, a book on fantasy cities should be able to cover 
historical cities just as easily, from the earliest days of history to the 
Rennaissance and perhaps even the Colonial period.  Thus, historical 
campaigns would be helped by this as well. 
   (And BTW, I'd recommend the title I give in the Subject header above.  I 
don't really think of it as an Ultimate book as the series has been 
defined, though a Compleat City series for various times would be cool.) 
 
>However, a series of articles on city construction in Hero for a RPG 
>magazine would be very welcome. :) 
 
   Yes, if nothing else. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:43:40 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 06:57 PM 3/31/1998 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< Oh, I definately think there are. Look at Justice Not Law and Kingdom of 
>Champions for examples. >> 
> 
>  And they serve as examples of saleability, also. The fact that we still 
have 
>plenty of copies of JNL and KoC is very telling, especially when you consider 
>that Eye For An Eye (another Dark Champions supplement) and The Ultimate 
>Martial Artist both were  sold out before we even took over distribution of 
>the 4th Ed book from ICE. 
> 
>  Something tells me we're better off investing in the production of books 
>like E4E and UMA moreso than books like JNL and KoC. Just a thought. 
 
   To my mind, the city/regional supplements should be from Hero Plus, at 
least at this time.  That's what I'm planning on for Northwest Champions, 
and what I'm recommending to Tim for his Chicago sourcebook.  For the level 
of things you're doing, Mark, I'd want to wait quite a while before testing 
the waters for geographic supplements at GRG. 
   Maybe you could *eventually* put out a single volume giving some general 
details on "hot" US cities like NYC, LA, SF, Miami, New Orleans, Chicago, 
Honolulu, and a few others.  (And I'm talking here about places that seem 
to be popular places *among writers* for placing adventures in books, TV, 
etc.; it doesn't necessarily follow that these are the *ideal* places for 
such adventure, or the most significant or interesting cities overall.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: EC Slots 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 31 Mar 1998 21:10:05 -0500 
Lines: 36 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
BG> It looks to me, though, like the Linked Limitation is taken on the 
BG> Missile Deflection. 
 
Yep, same here. 
 
BG> I'm not 100% clear on whether this is forbidden in the description of 
BG> ECs, or given as the correct way of doing it. 
 
If all the powers are in the same framework slot, and the cost requirements 
of the EC are met, there is no reason as far as game mechanics go not to 
allow it. 
 
Examples in "Champions III" imply otherwise, that several powers in a 
framework (MP, EC) slot are automatically, proportionally "linked" to each 
other, for no bonus.  The rationalle is that when you link two powers, you 
have two linked powers; but if you put two powers in a single framework 
slot, you have a new power. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:38:28 -0800 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Jim Dickinson <champion@cyberhighway.net> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: BTILC - David Lo Pan 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 07:46 PM 3/31/98 -0500, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>After hearing what the Hero Mailing List had to say, 
>I tend to agree with the assessment that the spells being cast were some 
>form of Ego Attack, and that Egg and Lo Pan were using the optional Ego 
>Combat maneuvers from "The Ultimate Mentalist" (as well as some of the 
>optional ideas from "Mystic Masters"). 
 
Egg: "Lo Pan!  You are finished!  I will attack you with my Warrior of Light!" 
 
>He assumes a 
>fighting stance and a beam of light shoots from his hands at Lo Pan.   
 
Lo Pan: "What rule system are you using, Egg Shen?!?  That looks like 
something from Ultimate Mentalist!  Hey those are OPTIONAL rules!  Ah, very 
well!" 
 
>Lo 
>Pan gets into a similar stance, and launches his own beam.  When the two 
>beams meet, we see the silhouetted forms of two warriors dressed in 
>ancient armor dueling with swords.  After a lot of grunting, shouting and 
>bright lights, the two vanish in a big flare of light and sound.   
 
Lo Pan: "Blast!  I knew I should have bought more levels with that!  Hey, 
next round, let's try something from Feng Shui!" 
 
 
(sorry Michael, that verbage just struck a funny bone in me...)  ;-) 
 
 
_________________________________________________________________ 
Jim Dickinson -=- Portland, OR USA -=- champion@cyberhighway.net 
                    WWW Role-Playing Resource 
       Castle Game Knight: http://www.aircyber.net/~jd/cgk 
    Join the Circle of HEROs: http://www.aircyber.net/~jd/coh 
----------------------------------------------------------------- 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 21:07:00 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: New Ultimate Books! (not!) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> >> The Ultimate Powergamer (featuring tips on buying 'missing one hand' per 
> >> finger) 
> > 
> >	You forgot X10 END, 0END. 
> > 
> Not to mention HKA, No Range. 
 
	I've always been fond of EB, Visible to Sight (-1/2) 
 
> >	This could seriously be useful. 
> > 
> It's sort of what I was hoping "Normals Unbound" would be, actually... 
 
	Well, Normals Unbound was a sourcebook of existing normals. 
(Which plenty of ideas can be taken from) 
 
	The Ultimate NNPC (Normal NPC) could include ideas for building 
memoriable normals to interact with in a campaign. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 21:14:34 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
>    1) Is there any real reason to not be able to buy DEF and BODY 
> separately for 5 pts each?  (This would eliminate "Entangle with No 
> Defense" and "Entangle with 1 BODY" as Limitations, and make them just 
> another way to structure the Entangle.)  An Entangle worth 50 Active Points 
> (sans Advantages) would be 5 DEF, 5d6; couldn't I just as easily have one 
> that's 8 DEF, 2d6 or 2 DEF, 8d6? 
 
	Nope.  I'm sure others will join in, but this is unbalancing to 
the extent that the DEF is more effective than the BOD on average.  The 
DEF will apply to every attack against the entangle, only moving on to 
loseing BOD when it is breached.  A normal can escape a 3 DEF, 3 BOD 
entangle with a few good rolls over time.  A 4 DEF, 2 BOD or 5 DEF 1 BOD 
entangle would be impossible to escape from. 
 
>    2) It seems to me that the designer should be able to simply declare 
> some or all of the BODY dice to rolling 1 BODY.  Since each die rolls 1 
> BODY on average, this would take no Modifier.  Thus 2d6, 1d6 + 1 BODY, and 
> 2 BODY would all cost the same, and the designer could freely choose how 
> the Entangle works. 
 
	This is merely an extrapolation of being able to take a normal die 
as always rolling a '3'.  That same roll would be worth 1 BOD, so . . . 
 
>    3) I've seen an occasional instance of Entangles in comics and sci-fi 
> that are capable of rebuilding themselves - in other words, Regeneration. 
> I'd structure this as Regeneration taken as part of the Entangle, costing 
> END as part of the Entangle and applying only to the BODY of the Entangle. 
> I'm not sure whether this should cost 5 points or 10 points per BODY 
> recovered every Turn (I'm leaning toward the former, given the limited 
> utility, but I could be convinced otherwise). 
 
	Hmmm.  What about an AID to the BOD of the entangle?  Or perhaps 
make the Entangle persistant or continuous? 
 
>    4) Entangle seems like the most likely game mechanic for building 
> bridges and (especially if suggestions #1 and #2 above are taken) other 
> objects like chairs.  But what would be the holding capacity?  I lean 
> toward the idea of 5 STR per DEF+BODY, with the weight above that (starting 
> over from 0) acting as a Normal Damage attack based on the STR needed to 
> carry that weight, but there are a lot of different ways of approaching 
> this and few are any less valid than mine. 
 
	Your way looks good to me.  Or maybe just 5 STR per def of the 
entangle?  Or 5 STR per BOD of the entangle?  The latter would allow you 
to add on to the entangle, adding BOD at 1 pt per as normal entangle 
attacks do. 
 
>    5) Could we please have some concrete examples of using Entangle for 
> making a barrier?  This was mentioned in passing in the 4th Edition, but a 
> few more details are needed -- like, does the barrier cover two-hex sides, 
> three hex-sides, a line through the middle of the hex, the whole hex, or 
> something else? 
 
	This would be nice, though I suspect the answers to your questions 
will result in a "depends on SFX".  I'd hate it to be any other way. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 22:17:08 -0500 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com&> champ-l@omg.org 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re:  5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:18 PM 3/31/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>At 05:13 PM 3/31/1998 EST, Hero Games wrote: 
>> 
>>In a message dated 3/31/98 2:43:33 PM, bob.greenwade@klock.com wrote: 
>> 
>><<1) Is there any real reason to not be able to buy DEF and BODY 
>>separately for 5 pts each?>> 
>> 
>>Yes, actually. One could effectively restrain normals with a high DEF, low 
>>BODY Entangle, and it would probably be too cheap. 
> 
>   The thing is, though, that high-damage characters (like most supers) 
>could tear through the thing in nothing flat.  Sure a normal could be 
>pretty easily bound by an 8 DEF/2 BODY Entangle, but anyone doing 12 BODY 
>to it (not too hard even in a 10DC game) gets a full phase after shredding 
>it.  Even 7 DEF/3 BODY wouldn't be that far off the mark. 
 
And then what of the +1/2 Entangle with 1 BODY advantage?  Your way would 
go from 8 DEF/2 BODY = 50 Active Points to 10 DEF/1 BODY = 75 Active 
Points.  That advantage is there for a reason. 
 
As a GM, I hate entangle.  You have make all of your agents have high 
strength to avoid losing 1/2 phase just before a haymaker, or worse, a 
sweep.  A friend of mine loves 4D6 Explosive Entangle.  In a 250 point game 
it is devistating.  Even SuperAgents end up stuck at least until their next 
phase.  The brick with the held action steps up and Sweeps them all before 
their next phase.  It's just horrible.  And God forbid if he actual roll 5 
or even 6 BODY on the 4D6!  Then there's the 3D6 1 DC/3" Explosive 
Entangle.  Yuck.  I would never want DEF and BODY to be separated in 
Entangle.  By house rule, I require that AoE and Explosive advantages 
bought on Entangles cost double normal. 
 
Don't get me started on Entangle. 
  Joe 
 
(P.S. My friend still buys it, even with that required advantage.  A 2D6 
Entangle, AoE Radius, still incapacitates large numbers of normals.) 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 21:25:03 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Another Ultimate Super City? [looong tirade] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> << Well, as has been suggested, split it into eras.  List what is common to 
> cities in general, and campaign settings in particular.  I do think something 
> like The Ultimate Fantasy City would be a nice suppliment for Fantasy Hero. 
> (Especially if it could possibly sell to players of that _other_ game.) >> 
> 
>   Splitting it makes the books a little more focused (by genre), but there is 
> alo the matter of  just how many Fantasy Hero players go to the extent of 
> designing their own cities, and how many of them would buy the book to use as 
> a guide. 
> 
>   I'm not totally ruling it out, I just don't see it as being a big seller. 
 
	Make sure you market it outside of Fantasy Hero.  I'd have liked 
something like this when I was playing that _other_ game back in the days. 
Include some good samples, and things are looking up for the product. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 21:27:05 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Another Ultimate Super City? [looong tirade] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> Also, Champions games tend to settle into one city or area, while the FRPGs 
> I've played, and the Fantasy Hero campaign I ran, tend to move across a 
> wide area in the course of the game. I don't think a city would be used as 
> much in most Fantasy games. 
 
	That's why a book on how to build the cities would be great.  You 
always need new ones and, this way, you have a head start on making them. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 21:32:53 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> >Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
> > Actually, I'm almost positive that Classic Organizations had a 
> >character with ranged, targetting, discriminatory touch. 
> 
>    I'm not sure where my copy is at right now, so I can neither confirm nor 
> contradict this... but I'd sure like it if someone where to point out which 
> character does this. 
 
	My book's somewhere, I'm not sure where.  However, I think it was 
Sanctuary's house demon -- Yu'Genothrax? 
 
> > It's valid in the sense that Hero should cover as much as 
> >possible, and adding a Touch sense group would not be unbalancing -- it's 
> >be rarely used, but I find many enhanced senses to be rarely used. 
> 
>    Precisely.  Just because it's rarely done in the comics doesn't mean it 
> should never be done in the game. 
 
	And if it's even rarely done in the comics, it should be possible 
to simulate.  (Heck, even rarely done in asny possible genre.  I for one 
don't limit myself to comics) 
 
> > Next -- add taste to the smell sense group. 
> 
>    But if we put Taste in the Sight Sense Group, would that help prevent 
> excessivly skimpy or gaudy costumes? 
 
	Come a little closer so I can fwap you with my Fupid Stick. 
(It'll make you fupid!) 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 21:38:04 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> least at this time.  That's what I'm planning on for Northwest Champions, 
> and what I'm recommending to Tim for his Chicago sourcebook.  For the level 
> of things you're doing, Mark, I'd want to wait quite a while before testing 
> the waters for geographic supplements at GRG. 
 
	I'd really tend to agree.  Though The Ultimate Super City, The 
Ultimate Fantasy City, and The Ultimate Space Station might work well as a 
GRG release. 
 
>    Maybe you could *eventually* put out a single volume giving some general 
> details on "hot" US cities like NYC, LA, SF, Miami, New Orleans, Chicago, 
> Honolulu, and a few others.  (And I'm talking here about places that seem 
> to be popular places *among writers* for placing adventures in books, TV, 
> etc.; it doesn't necessarily follow that these are the *ideal* places for 
> such adventure, or the most significant or interesting cities overall.) 
 
	Agreed.  One, or a small series with broad areas (Pacific Coast. 
Midwest.  South.  Atlantic Coast) would do OK.  Individual cities I'd keep 
to Hero Plus unless the demand seems strong enough for a book release. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 22:40:37 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 09:14 PM 3/31/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>>    4) Entangle seems like the most likely game mechanic for building 
>> bridges and (especially if suggestions #1 and #2 above are taken) other 
>> objects like chairs.  But what would be the holding capacity?  I lean 
>> toward the idea of 5 STR per DEF+BODY, with the weight above that (starting 
>> over from 0) acting as a Normal Damage attack based on the STR needed to 
>> carry that weight, but there are a lot of different ways of approaching 
>> this and few are any less valid than mine. 
> 
>	Your way looks good to me.  Or maybe just 5 STR per def of the 
>entangle?  Or 5 STR per BOD of the entangle?  The latter would allow you 
>to add on to the entangle, adding BOD at 1 pt per as normal entangle 
>attacks do. 
 
Er.. Force Wall?  You might try Force Wall.  The only benefit Entangle has 
it that it is 0 END after you create it.  But Entangle does not have even 
the vaguestly correct mechanic for creating a chair.  A chair you are tied 
to?  Yes.  But, just a chair?  No. 
 
  Joe 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 21:41:00 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> >         Next -- add taste to the smell sense group. 
> 
> It is already there: HSR p. 66. 
> 
> 	Sense Groups 
> 	. . . 
> 	Smell/Taste: Normal Smell, Discriminatory Smell, Tracking Scent 
> 			Normal Taste, Discriminatory Taste. 
 
	Hmmm.  Perhaps I forgot it was there because no one ever purchases 
it.  Ah well. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 22:00:13 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
To: Champions Discussion List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Jim Dickinson wrote: 
 
> I don't want to step on anyone's toes here, but there is an advantage to 
> succeeding with a Block that seems to have been forgotten.  When you block, 
> you get to ACT BEFORE YOUR OPPONENT gets to act on the next phase.  This is 
> a significant part of the Blocking IMO.  I have had slower characters 
> block, just so they would get to attack first on the following phase.  This 
> has come in handy.  One character (a FH swashbuckler) bought levels in 
> Block (parry with sword) just so he could get an advantage on the following 
> phase. 
>  
> Did everyone forget about this when the discussion went toward "who cares 
> if you block if they miss you in the first place..."???? 
>  
> It matters a lot! 
 
Thanks for the input, Jim and Theala, but I don't think anyone's forgotten 
this. The very first entry in this thread asks something like "why use 
block instead of dodge? Is it just attacking before someone on your next 
phase or am I missing something?" 
 
As people tried to help David Stallard out, we came across some curious 
interpretations of the block and dodge maneuvers! Most of the members of 
this thread are now trying to sort them out, including Steve Petersen's 
recent surprising remark. The answers to the original question are nearer 
the top of this thread (where attacking before your opponent on your 
next phase is assumed) but the topic being discussed now still qualifies 
as "Block vs. Dodge." 
 
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From: "Ron Abitz" <ronald@centraltx.net> 
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Independent Focus 
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 22:00:21 -0600 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
---------- 
> From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
> Subject: Re: Independent Focus 
> Date: Wednesday, April 01, 1998 11:11 AM 
>  
> At 11:33 PM 3/31/1998 EST, Leah L Watts wrote: 
> >>> Do most GMs out there outlaw or limit Independent Focus?  I allow it, 
> >IF 
> >>> only a minor part of your character's power comes from that focus.  
If 
> >>> taking the focus would severely cripple you, I don't allow it. 
> >> 
> >>I allow it, but I find that very few players will actually use (for 
> >>anything except rinky-dink powers)  it as they eventually learn it's a 
> >>pretty safe bet that focus will get taken away at least once.  Fear is 
> >>a useful thing for controlling PCs. 
> > 
> >I wish I'd had you as a GM the last time I played in a group that 
allowed 
> >Independent Focus.  The guy running a Green Lantern clone decided he 
> >didn't have enough points, so he bought all his powers Independent OAF 
-- 
> >power ring, and said in his character origin that the ring was fused to 
> >his finger and could not be removed.  The GM didn't see anything wrong 
> >with giving the -3 limitation on all this character's powers.  My 
> >munchkin allergy really kicked up at this point .... 
>  
>    That would send bells off in my head as well.  A Focus that can't be 
> removed or taken away?  The very definition of a Focus is that it's *not* 
a 
> part of (or fused to) the character's body.  And I'm not sure how 
> Independent would be justified in this case either. 
 
What about things like Flight taken with OAF Wings like Dragonfly in the 
BBB. Purchased this way I take it to mean if there is not enough romm to 
spread your win that you can not fly and entanges can cause you to fall 
etc. But with out surgery (or some violent act) the wing can not be remove. 
Is this in the spirit of the limitation? 
 
 
            Ron Abitz 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 20:03:56 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Cheaters and Balance 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
John Desmarais wrote: 
>  
> I have a playeer that had somehow managed to sneak fourteen extra 
> points into 
> his character....even though I had looked it over it seems he was... 
> well... 
> creative with his point totaling....I am allowing him to continue to 
> play with 
> the character only because the group and ropleplaying have already 
> established 
> themselves as a superteam and shaking up his abilities and 
> stats...or forcing 
> in a new character would wreck the current momentum of the game. I 
> should note 
> that the character isn't really overbalancing he's a mostly skills 
> guy in a 
> supers game (200 points) and is the unofficial team leader at the 
> moment...my 
> only condition for allowing him to continue is that he fails to gain 
> experience until he's paid for the extrat points...which seems 
> fair...but the 
> other players are grumbling even though they said he could continue 
> also...what should I do...give the other playess the extra exp 
> effectively 
> putting my villians a a disadvantage...or let him continue with the 
> behind the 
> scenes mumbling from the other players...(I should also note this is 
> a large 
> group...7 players at peak) 
 
For up to five points of error, I impose a die of Unluck temporarily --  
the die must be bought off ASAP, and the player usually agrees.  I tend  
to treat temporary Unluck as much worse than normal Unluck. 
 
In cases where I suspect the player's goodwill, or where a player is  
simply unwilling to start with a mere 250 points, I have allowed the  
player to pick additional disadvantages at half value to cover the extra  
points required.  The additional disadvantages must be true  
disadvantages, not plot complications such as DNPCs or character  
fleshing-out such as most Psych Lims.  Examples that I have found  
acceptable include: 
 
10	1.5xSTUN from all physical attacks -- half value 
	(Group of Very Common Attacks: 20 pts x 1/2) 
	SFX: the character has not yet learned to defend well. 
 
10	3D6 Susceptability to any magical Aid -- half value 
	(instant, common for this group) 
	SFX: the character is under a curse that should be lifted 
	early in the campaign. 
 
No experience points may be spent on anything else until the extra  
disadvantage is bought off, and a disadvantage  may not be bought off  
until the character has suffered from it in actual play.  This means that  
there is no incentive to pick a disadvantage that is unlikely to come up. 
 
I have imposed this in two instances where I was presented with a sheet  
at 2AM and missed some illegal point compression, and there has been one  
volunteer -- a player with a concept that we simply could not squeeze  
down to starting values.  There has been no complaint from the remaining  
twelve players. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 22:18:14 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> >	Your way looks good to me.  Or maybe just 5 STR per def of the 
> >entangle?  Or 5 STR per BOD of the entangle?  The latter would allow you 
> >to add on to the entangle, adding BOD at 1 pt per as normal entangle 
> >attacks do. 
> 
> Er.. Force Wall?  You might try Force Wall.  The only benefit Entangle has 
> it that it is 0 END after you create it.  But Entangle does not have even 
> the vaguestly correct mechanic for creating a chair.  A chair you are tied 
> to?  Yes.  But, just a chair?  No. 
 
	Sorry, but you are quite wrong.  Entangle can be used to create a 
wall/obstruction -- it's right there in the Entangle rules.  It's really 
the only power that creates anything. 
 
	ForceWall has the disadvantage of being non-persistant, costing 
END, and having no BOD score.  Entangle has BOD and won't go away after 
bing created.  (Unless, of course, SFX or limitations add that feature.) 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 22:30:54 -0600 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com&> champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 05:15 PM 3/31/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>At 10:18 PM 3/31/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
>>Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
>>Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
>> Actually, I'm almost positive that Classic Organizations had a 
>>character with ranged, targetting, discriminatory touch. 
> 
>   I'm not sure where my copy is at right now, so I can neither confirm nor 
>contradict this... but I'd sure like it if someone where to point out which 
>character does this. 
 
Tim was correct; Yu'Genothrax has these abilities: 
 
Clairsentience with Infrared Vision and Touch, 1/2 END, Linked to Stretching, 
	Clairsentience distance limited to the range of Stretching (8") -1/4 
Discriminatory Feel 
+5 Youch Perception 
 
Damon 
 
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Subject: Re: Independent Focus 
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts) 
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:33:03 EST 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>> Do most GMs out there outlaw or limit Independent Focus?  I allow it, 
IF 
>> only a minor part of your character's power comes from that focus.  If 
>> taking the focus would severely cripple you, I don't allow it. 
> 
>I allow it, but I find that very few players will actually use (for 
>anything except rinky-dink powers)  it as they eventually learn it's a 
>pretty safe bet that focus will get taken away at least once.  Fear is 
>a useful thing for controlling PCs. 
 
I wish I'd had you as a GM the last time I played in a group that allowed 
Independent Focus.  The guy running a Green Lantern clone decided he 
didn't have enough points, so he bought all his powers Independent OAF -- 
power ring, and said in his character origin that the ring was fused to 
his finger and could not be removed.  The GM didn't see anything wrong 
with giving the -3 limitation on all this character's powers.  My 
munchkin allergy really kicked up at this point .... 
 
Leah 
 
_____________________________________________________________________ 
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. 
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com 
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:08:44 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Independent Focus 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> I wish I'd had you as a GM the last time I played in a group that allowed 
> Independent Focus.  The guy running a Green Lantern clone decided he 
> didn't have enough points, so he bought all his powers Independent OAF -- 
> power ring, and said in his character origin that the ring was fused to 
> his finger and could not be removed.  The GM didn't see anything wrong 
> with giving the -3 limitation on all this character's powers.  My 
> munchkin allergy really kicked up at this point .... 
 
	As GM, I would have gladly given the limitation.  Of course, any 
villian wanting the ring would have had no hesitation to remove said 
finger to get it. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 21:16:09 -0800 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com&> champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Shelley Chrystal Mactyre <scm@mactyre.net> 
Subject: Re: Anime Sourceworks 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:16 PM 3/31/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   No, I caught your post right after you mailed it, and I got mine in 
>ahead of yours by about a week and a half.  I think Shelley's PRIMUS 
>manuscript likewise beat me by a couple of days. 
 
Just an update on the PRIMUS manuscript situation: it's now in final 
revisions and ought to be back to Bruce in the next week or two (depending 
on how busy my new job keeps me).  Then the ball will be safely back in his 
court. =)  
 
Shelley Chrystal Mactyre 
http://www.mactyre.net 
 
A flung stone has always been a fool's favorite means of putting himself on 
a level with the wise.   
-- Edgar Pangborn 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 22:32:36 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
CC: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
>  
>         Next -- add taste to the smell sense group. 
 
It is already there: HSR p. 66. 
 
	Sense Groups 
	. . .  
	Smell/Taste: Normal Smell, Discriminatory Smell, Tracking Scent 
			Normal Taste, Discriminatory Taste. 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:59:50 -0800 
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com> 
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com 
Organization: None 
To: David W Toomey <dwtoomey@juno.com> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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David W Toomey wrote: 
 
> >> > Currently on Parole. 
> >> > Member of lower social class. 
> >> > Slave. 
> >> > Declared Bankruptcy. 
> >> > Debt of honor. 
> 
> Exactly how do these limit the player if they are unknown? 
> 
> I don't see how they would count for more than background, myself... 
> 
> >> Very few FH characters take Secret ID, after all... 
> 
> >       Possibly.  Though I can think of a few instances in other 
> >genres. 
> >MiB aliens.  Darth Vader.  The Lone Ranger. 
> > 
> 
> DARTH VADER?????   "Let me take off my helmet, and nobody will 
> recognize me..." 
> 
> I could see Public ID, perhaps, but Secret?? 
> 
> David W Toomey 
> dwtoomey@juno.com 
> 
> _____________________________________________________________________ 
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. 
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com 
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] 
 
  Sure How many people knew that the Big "D" was Luke's Old Man? he was 
Darth Vader 
 
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 98 00:33:12  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Independent Focus 
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On Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:33:03 EST, Leah L Watts wrote: 
 
>>> Do most GMs out there outlaw or limit Independent Focus?  I allow it, 
>IF 
>>> only a minor part of your character's power comes from that focus.  If 
>>> taking the focus would severely cripple you, I don't allow it. 
>> 
>>I allow it, but I find that very few players will actually use (for 
>>anything except rinky-dink powers)  it as they eventually learn it's a 
>>pretty safe bet that focus will get taken away at least once.  Fear is 
>>a useful thing for controlling PCs. 
> 
>I wish I'd had you as a GM the last time I played in a group that allowed 
>Independent Focus.  The guy running a Green Lantern clone decided he 
>didn't have enough points, so he bought all his powers Independent OAF -- 
>power ring, and said in his character origin that the ring was fused to 
>his finger and could not be removed.  The GM didn't see anything wrong 
>with giving the -3 limitation on all this character's powers.  My 
>munchkin allergy really kicked up at this point .... 
> 
>Leah 
 
What was your GM smoking? Old tennis shoes?  An accessible focus can be taken  
away (via a Grab manuever).  A focus fused to the body is Inaccessible, at best, after  
all, an argument could be made that it's not a focus at all, merely a permanent visible  
manifestation of the power. 
 
If I had a player try to convince me that a ring fused to his finger was an OAF, I would  
have to assume that his finger was detachable (not that I'd tell him this, it would just get  
detached one day). 
 
 
 
 
      John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysanbend,org> 
================================================= 
Gotta question about the list? Just ask. Or, you can go look  
over at www.sysabend.org/champions.  I've been slowly 
posting information about the list there. 
 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 00:35:24 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 10:18 PM 3/31/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>> >	Your way looks good to me.  Or maybe just 5 STR per def of the 
>> >entangle?  Or 5 STR per BOD of the entangle?  The latter would allow you 
>> >to add on to the entangle, adding BOD at 1 pt per as normal entangle 
>> >attacks do. 
>> 
>> Er.. Force Wall?  You might try Force Wall.  The only benefit Entangle has 
>> it that it is 0 END after you create it.  But Entangle does not have even 
>> the vaguestly correct mechanic for creating a chair.  A chair you are tied 
>> to?  Yes.  But, just a chair?  No. 
> 
>	Sorry, but you are quite wrong.  Entangle can be used to create a 
>wall/obstruction -- it's right there in the Entangle rules.  It's really 
>the only power that creates anything. 
 
Yes, the sentense you refer to: "An Entangle may also be used to create a 
"wall" in one hex, depending on the special effects of the Entangle." 
allows Entangle to create an obstruction.  It does not say anthing about 
creating a chair or how much such said wall can support.  *I* always 
assumed that if you use Entangle to put a wall in a hex, the next person to 
touch the wall becomes entangled by the wall.  When he breaks out of the 
entangle, the wall goes away. 
 
And Entangle does not create anything more than an EB does.  Hydro's water 
based EB leaves a lot more water on the battlefield than Spiderguy leaves 
webbing behind.  A Force Wall could be "playing cards which appear from 
nowhere" (1 PD/1 ED, obscures sight). When the Force Wall comes down, the 
playing cards stay behind.  Remember Entangle creates a "wall" not a wall. :-) 
 
>	ForceWall has the disadvantage of being non-persistant, costing 
>END, and having no BOD score.  Entangle has BOD and won't go away after 
>bing created.  (Unless, of course, SFX or limitations add that feature.) 
 
"Disadvantage" meaning "it costs too much to use," i.e. make persistent? 
The original poster wanted to create a bridge.  An entangle should hold you 
in place, not provide transportation.  If you want to be technical about 
it, you should by a power "create temporary bridges" as Flight, UAO, 
Persistent, Uncontrolled (bridges last 5 minutes), Only to cross an open 
space through the air.  But I'll leave that one for Rat.  :-) 
 
  Joe 
(Arg.. er.. People are ... talking a- ... bout ... Entangle ... 
Must... control... fist of death!) 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 00:36:06 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: BTILC - David Lo Pan 
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On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Jim Dickinson wrote: 
 
> (sorry Michael, that verbage just struck a funny bone in me...)  ;-) 
 
Unhunh... let's see *you* try and describe that scene... 
 
geeze, *some* people...  ^_^ 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 00:36:49 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: The Compleat Fantasy City 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 05:33 PM 3/31/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>At 03:51 PM 3/31/1998 -0800, Nic Neidenbach wrote: 
>>At 06:54 PM 3/31/98 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
>>><< Well, as has been suggested, split it into eras.  List what is common to 
>>>cities in general, and campaign settings in particular.  I do think 
>something 
>>>like The Ultimate Fantasy City would be a nice suppliment for Fantasy Hero. 
>>>(Especially if it could possibly sell to players of that _other_ game.) 
[snip] 
 
>>However, a series of articles on city construction in Hero for a RPG 
>>magazine would be very welcome. :) 
> 
>   Yes, if nothing else. 
 
Try these URLs.  They are not Hero specific, but I don't see what about a 
city, besides the inhabitants would be Hero specific.  (The outer walls are 
10 DEF?)  There are a lot of good links about historical cities on these 
pages as well as populations and item prices: 
 
http://village.vossnet.co.uk/h/hpttrsn/city.htm  <-- some historic info and 
                                                     a few good links. 
http://www.funet.fi/~vesanto/citydes/citydes.html  <-- this is a whole net 
                                                       project to create a 
                                                       fantasy city.  I  
                                                       haven't looked at all 
                                                       of the local links yet. 
 
  Joe 
 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 00:38:43 EST 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Compleat Fantasy City 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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<< Don't be too sure.  It's been production and financial problems, and not 
lack of popularity, that have kept Flying Buffalo's award-winning CityBook 
series going slow (and may have killed it after CB7). >> 
 
  According to whom? 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 00:13:50 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Independent Focus 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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> If I had a player try to convince me that a ring fused to his finger was an OAF, I would 
> have to assume that his finger was detachable (not that I'd tell him this, it would just get 
> detached one day). 
 
	Exactly. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 00:20:21 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
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On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
 
> Yes, the sentense you refer to: "An Entangle may also be used to create a 
> "wall" in one hex, depending on the special effects of the Entangle." 
> allows Entangle to create an obstruction.  It does not say anthing about 
> creating a chair or how much such said wall can support.  *I* always 
 
	There's not much extrapolation from Wall to Any Object with Def 
and Bod.  It's a pretty similar process.  And, of course, with AE you 
could create larger objects.  Or you could add on to your wall in 
successive phases. 
 
> assumed that if you use Entangle to put a wall in a hex, the next person to 
> touch the wall becomes entangled by the wall.  When he breaks out of the 
> entangle, the wall goes away. 
 
	That's be giving the entangle "sticky" for free.  Or "Trigger: 
when touched". 
 
> And Entangle does not create anything more than an EB does.  Hydro's water 
> based EB leaves a lot more water on the battlefield than Spiderguy leaves 
> webbing behind.  A Force Wall could be "playing cards which appear from 
> nowhere" (1 PD/1 ED, obscures sight). When the Force Wall comes down, the 
> playing cards stay behind.  Remember Entangle creates a "wall" not a wall. :-) 
 
	Entangle creates objects with Def and Bod, the only power in Hero 
that does so.  It leaves much more substantial objects behind.  It is also 
the only power that suggests this ability. 
 
> "Disadvantage" meaning "it costs too much to use," i.e. make persistent? 
 
	Meaning it's a short-term power that doesn't create anything 
lasting. 
 
> The original poster wanted to create a bridge.  An entangle should hold you 
> in place, not provide transportation.  If you want to be technical about 
 
	That's your opinion and definately not the BBB's.  We're looking 
at rules that explicately support the creation of, at the least, walls 
with Def and Bod. 
 
> it, you should by a power "create temporary bridges" as Flight, UAO, 
> Persistent, Uncontrolled (bridges last 5 minutes), Only to cross an open 
> space through the air.  But I'll leave that one for Rat.  :-) 
 
	Why do the bridges only last 5 minutes.  Within reason, they 
should last forever.  Entangle would build a fine bridge, as would 
lashing together some logs. 
 
	The question is, for either example, how to determine the carrying 
capacity.  There's got to be some way to determine if your rope bridge 
will hold Mr. Massive. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 00:23:19 -0600 (CST) 
X-Sender: mlnunn@blue.net 
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Subject: Re: Independent Focus 
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 12:13 AM 4/1/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
>> If I had a player try to convince me that a ring fused to his finger was 
an OAF, I would 
>> have to assume that his finger was detachable (not that I'd tell him 
this, it would just get 
>> detached one day). 
> 
>	Exactly. 
 
Hey, if the person wanting it is strong enough any finger is detachable :-) 
 
I played a Green Lantern for several years in a game, his ring was Indy, but 
also an  
OIF, OIF beacuse I set up a defensive screen with the pool.  Still didn't 
keep me from looseing the darn thing 3 or 4 times, but as long as I had the 
Battery hid, after 24 hours I got it back.  Now when they stole the battery, 
now that was another story...  
 
Michael 
Rising Force Publications 
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist recently updated web site... 
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
"You have never lived until you have almost died.  
And for those who fight for it, 
life has a flavor the protected never know"  
- anonymous 
 
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To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Subject: List project 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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I had an idea for a cool list project... 
 
DNPC disadvantages.  There was a cool list in an old AC, but the game has 
changed so much since then I though as a list we could put together a 
complete list of "DNPC ONLY" 
disadvantages... 
 
Any comments?   
 
Michael 
Rising Force Publications 
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist recently updated web site... 
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
"You have never lived until you have almost died.  
And for those who fight for it, 
life has a flavor the protected never know"  
- anonymous 
 
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From: "Mikhael Weitzel" <weitzelg@softdisk.com> 
To: "mekton-z mailing list" <mekton-z@mudhole.spodnet.uk.com&> 
        "Fuzion Mailing List" <fuzion@pjh.org&> 
        "Champions mailing list" <champ-l@omg.org&> 
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        "George Worthington" <georgew@pacaccess.com&> 
        "Andrew Sokolowski (E-mail)" <gizmo@griffin.multimedia.edu> 
Subject: Fw: e-moon (fwd) 
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 01:28:31 -0600 
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>>>                             ,,,               ,,,, 
>>>                   ..ooo*"""**ooooo .oo*""*ooo.. 
>>>                .  oo*"           "*o.oo*"           "*o. 
>>>               . o"                   'o"                      "o 
>>>                o                      o                         *o 
>>>              .o                       o                           'o 
>>>              o                        o                             o. 
>>>             o                          o                             o 
>>>            o                          \o/                            o 
>>>            o                         --0--                          o 
>>>            o.                         /o\                          .o 
>>>           "o                          o                            o'" 
>>>            oo                         o                          oo 
>>>             oo.                       oo                        oo 
>>>              'ooo.                  .oo.                     ooo 
>>>               "o ""oo,,        ,,oO-'Oo,       ,,,,,,..oo"o 
>>>                o.         """"""    oo       """""        .o 
>>>                'o                     oo                    o' 
>>>                *o                    oo                    o 
>>>                 'o                     o                    o 
>>>                  o                     o                   o 
>>>                  o                     o                  o 
>>>                   o                    o                 o 
>>>                   o                    o                 o 
>>>                   o                    o                 o 
>>>                   o                    o                 o 
>>> 
>>>   You have been e-mooned!  Send this to 10 people within the next 
>>>   hour and you will be blessed with people laughing at your e-mail. 
>>>   Happy e-mooning!!! 
>>> 
>>>   This is NOT a chain letter, so if you don't mail it out, you won't 
>>>   have bad luck.  (But who wouldn't want to eMoon a friend?) 
>>> 
>> 
 
 
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From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Anime (was Re: Testing!) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 02:51:03 -0500 (EST) 
Organization: VTSFFC 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>  
> 	Are there any other Champions gamers out there that also like 
> Japanese Animation? I'd really like some Champions supplements to 
> cover anime. Imagine your heroes meeting Ryoko from Tenchi Muyo! ^_^; 
 
  Heck, most of the founders of Katsucon are/were Champs players.  :-) 
 
  Let's see here, what were some of the Anime-ish features of the  
'Shared Gaming Universe' that Blacksburg-area GM's used..... it 
started out as the default Champs universe, although PRIMUS was somewhat 
supplanted by S.W.A.P. (Special Weapons And Personnell) units in most 
major cities.  They mostly used ADPolice equipment (K-12 battlesuits, 
battle-fans, etc) and Patlabor Mecha.  Then there is this evil megacorp 
from Japan, "BioTech", that has several giant corporate towers and makes 
androids that have a tendency to burst out of their skin and fire lasers 
from their mouths (a band of female NPC mercs in skintight battlesuits 
usually blow them to bits). 
  The Dirty Pair once made a brief appearance through a dimensional 
rift.  Fortunately they were sent back before the planet exploded. 
For that matter, there is a detective named Ryo Seba in Tokyo, who occasionally 
joins the A.M.P. in fighting demons.  Closer to home, demons in the New 
York area are often stopped by the Ghostbusters, with some help from the 
AutoBot member of a prominant superteam (Earth has twice survived attacks 
by Unicron).  And I'm not sure how that ThunderCat in Roanoke showed up. 
There was a REAL big showdown in the Pacific when Grond got ahold of a 
super-growth potion and got into a wrestling match with Godzillia. 
There have been sighting of green cat-owl-ish creatures flittering 
through the trees.  And pay no attention to the family of telekinetics 
that live on "Orange Street", they just want to be normals. 
  How's that for starters? 
 
                                            Daniel Pawtowski 
 
 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 01:52:42 -0600 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
To: Mikhael Weitzel <weitzelg@softdisk.com&> 
        "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Fw: e-moon (fwd) 
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Mikhael Weitzel wrote: 
>  
 
Can we remove this loser from the list?? 
 
 
 
Todd 
 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 00:17:12 -0800 
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com> 
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com 
Organization: None 
To: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
CC: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org, champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
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Hero Games wrote: 
 
> In a message dated 3/31/98 2:43:33 PM, bob.greenwade@klock.com wrote: 
> 
> <<1) Is there any real reason to not be able to buy DEF and BODY 
> separately for 5 pts each?>> 
> 
> Yes, actually. One could effectively restrain normals with a high DEF, low 
> BODY Entangle, and it would probably be too cheap. 
> 
> -- Steve Peterson, Hero Games 
 
Er, Uh most Heroes (like, oh, Spiderman for example) rarely have trouble 
stopping normals with their entangles....So I don't see the problem. If the GM 
of that particular campaign has no problem with it, I have no problem with 
it... 
 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 03:38:26 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
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To: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Anime (was Re: Testing!) 
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> >  
> > 	Are there any other Champions gamers out there that also like 
> > Japanese Animation? I'd really like some Champions supplements to 
> > cover anime. Imagine your heroes meeting Ryoko from Tenchi Muyo! ^_^; 
>  
 
I'm sure there is alot of crossover here.  In my R.I.S.K. campaign I draw 
heavily upon anime but make little changes.  In that world ISE 
(International Scientific Elite) from one of the older Champs books has 
gone legit and is starting to mass produce Boomers among other high tech. 
Burning Rain (Name taken from the merc group in Mechwarrior: Merc) are 
female power armor supers drawing heavily on Knightsabres.  I hate to 
borrow stuff straight out, but do get alot of ideas and adapt them. 
 
 
 
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From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@voicenet.com> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City 
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 05:35:44 -0500 
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About 10 years ago, I picked up a copy of the "Thrilling Locations" 
supplement for the old James Bond OO7 RPG from a game store's bargain 
bin.  In part, I bought it because of the floor plans where adventures 
can occur--the Casino de Monte Carlo, the MGM Grand Hotel, Tavern on 
the Green restaurant, carriages of the Orient Express, a 125' yacht, a 
Regent Air jet, an airline terminal. . . .  Provide plenty of such 
floor plans and maps adaptable to a wide variety of campaigns, and a 
city book could be worth the price of admission even if the 
tourist-guide material doesn't suit a GM's  needs.    
 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 06:21:32 -0500 (EST) 
From: JASON SULLIVAN <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: RE: The Ultimate Super City 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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	Anyone ever consider drawing up common location archetypes-- 
bars, nightclubs, banks?  What program would you find most useful? 
 
	Speaking of archetypes, where is the quicks start random 
roll Hero thing that a few people on this list were working on? 
 
 
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: "'hero-l@sysabend.org'" <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition: New Power - Density Decrease 
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 05:58:31 -0800 
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> How about a power based on density increase, but  
>negatively affecting weight. This would allow players to  
>become less dense to make up for size 
> or be airhead boy or helium man if they want to. :) 
 
As Bob G said, there's no consensus, but you might find my Size and 
Density 
Powers article interesting. Check it out at 
<http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1905/haym15.html>. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:40:27 -0500 (EST) 
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> 	Anyone ever consider drawing up common location archetypes--  
> bars, nightclubs, banks?  What program would you find most useful?  
 
You mean like the Locations in the Fantasy Hero Companions?  Those things 
are completely useless because they did not have scale.  The problem is 
most locations are only 10-15 hexes.  Bigger places are usually dominated 
by a large open space which makes the rest of the details irrelavent. 
 
> 	Speaking of archetypes, where is the quicks start random  
> roll Hero thing that a few people on this list were working on?  
 
I think most people gave up when no consensus was achieved.  I gave up 
sooner because I didn't like the direction the list seemed to be going. 
 
  Joe 
 
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:57:11 -0500 (EST) 
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Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote:  
>   
> > Yes, the sentense you refer to: "An Entangle may also be used to create a  
> > "wall" in one hex, depending on the special effects of the Entangle."  
> > allows Entangle to create an obstruction.  It does not say anthing about  
> > creating a chair or how much such said wall can support.  *I* always  
>   
> 	There's not much extrapolation from Wall to Any Object with Def  
> and Bod.  It's a pretty similar process.  And, of course, with AE you  
> could create larger objects.  Or you could add on to your wall in  
> successive phases.  
 
So, can you create a complex machine with entangle?  Suppose my entangle 
creates a device which causes ropes to string around its victim until the 
machine is destroyed (Entangle does not take damage advantage, as well). 
If I create a wall instead, do I end up a tape dispenser, too? 
 
I always thought you needed a Transform to create new objects. 
 
> > assumed that if you use Entangle to put a wall in a hex, the next person to  
> > touch the wall becomes entangled by the wall.  When he breaks out of the  
> > entangle, the wall goes away.  
>   
> 	That's be giving the entangle "sticky" for free.  Or "Trigger:  
> when touched".  
 
Armor is Force Field, 0 END with Persistent for free.  Why can't other 
powers have other advantages for free? 
 
> > And Entangle does not create anything more than an EB does.  Hydro's water  
> > based EB leaves a lot more water on the battlefield than Spiderguy leaves  
> > webbing behind.  A Force Wall could be "playing cards which appear from  
> > nowhere" (1 PD/1 ED, obscures sight). When the Force Wall comes down, the  
> > playing cards stay behind.  Remember Entangle creates a "wall" not a wall. :-)  
>   
> 	Entangle creates objects with Def and Bod, the only power in Hero  
> that does so.  It leaves much more substantial objects behind.  It is also  
> the only power that suggests this ability.  
 
So an EB which is a large rock doesn't leave a rock with Def and Body 
behind? 
 
> > "Disadvantage" meaning "it costs too much to use," i.e. make persistent?  
>   
> 	Meaning it's a short-term power that doesn't create anything  
> lasting.  
 
A persistent, uncontrolled Force Wall will create just as permanent a wall 
as Entangle will.  The difference is the Force Wall costs more. 
 
> > The original poster wanted to create a bridge.  An entangle should hold you  
> > in place, not provide transportation.  If you want to be technical about  
>   
> 	That's your opinion and definately not the BBB's.  We're looking  
> at rules that explicately support the creation of, at the least, walls  
> with Def and Bod.  
 
Well, that's your opinion, too.  The BBB does not speak either way about 
moving entangles. 
 
> > it, you should by a power "create temporary bridges" as Flight, UAO,  
> > Persistent, Uncontrolled (bridges last 5 minutes), Only to cross an open  
> > space through the air.  But I'll leave that one for Rat.  :-)  
>   
> 	Why do the bridges only last 5 minutes.  Within reason, they  
> should last forever.  Entangle would build a fine bridge, as would  
> lashing together some logs.  
 
Then make the uncontrolled condition, "until destroyed".  Or "until weight 
limit exceeds 2 tons". 
 
> 	The question is, for either example, how to determine the carrying  
> capacity.  There's got to be some way to determine if your rope bridge  
> will hold Mr. Massive.  
 
Well, it would be nice to have a creation power.  Tying it to Entangle 
(whether or not it is already there) is a bit weird.  If I accept that 
Entangle can be used to create any object, what limitation would you allow 
for an Entangle that could only create objects? 
 
If only someone would make a ruling. 
  Joe 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:07:31 -0500 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Cheaters and Balance 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>   In a case of "creative bookkeeping," though, I'd probably find some 
ability or abilities on the character's sheet that wasn't vital to his 
background and hadn't been used thus far, and dock it off.  I'm a little 
more harsh against sneaks than I am against goofers (probably because I'm a 
frequent goofer myself).< 
 
Ever since I got HeroMaker, I require my players to use it to make 
characters, since they are frequent goofers (as am I).  Besides, it's just 
easier to click on what you want and have it tell you the cost, rather than 
flipping to the advantage/limitation charts or using the formulas. 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:07:32 -0500 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: No invasions? 
Cc: Champions Discussion List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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I only got one response to my question about invasion scenarios...does that 
mean that nobody else does them?  I always had the impression that they 
were a common plotline.... 
 
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: 5th Ed: Fine Manipulation 
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 07:11:53 -0800 
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One more 5th Ed suggestion came to mind yesterday. Fine Manip for TK 
allows the hero to pull levers, type, etc. Why not allow Fine Manip to 
be used on other powers as well? For an extra 10 points, now my fire EB 
can weld doors, or my bola entangle can be used to knock a pool ball 
into a pocket. 
 
It's a lot like Fuzion's Use Power skill, or Marvel's Power Stunts. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
mattingly@bigfoot.com 
 
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: The Ultimate Super City 
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 07:40:03 -0800 
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>Speaking of archetypes, where is the quicks start random 
>roll Hero thing that a few people on this list were working on? 
 
Well, there's the random character generator I did at 
http://www.geocities.com/area51/cavern/1905/haym03.html. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:46:47 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: bsvitavsky@mln.lib.ma.us (Bill Svitavsky) 
Subject: Re: List project 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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> 
>DNPC disadvantages.  There was a cool list in an old AC, but the game has 
>changed so much since then I though as a list we could put together a 
>complete list of "DNPC ONLY" 
>disadvantages... 
> 
 
For DNPC Disads, I'd suggest: 
 
Unluck - It may be worth noting that Unluck can have different "special 
effects" that determine the kinds of things that happen to the unlucky 
character. While 
traditional Unluck, where all sorts of things go wrong for the character, 
is appropriate for some DNPC's, quite often Unluck could be used simply to 
simulate a "Weirdness Magnet." Thus, Tuber Man's pal Johnny Jensen might 
lead a happy, successful life unplagued by car breakdowns, gum on his shoe, 
and jury duty, but could often find himself happening upon alien 
spaceships, supervillain crimes, extradimensional gates, etc. 
 
Psychological Limitations: Overconfident, Curious, "Won't let go of a 
story" (for reporters), Hero Worship. Also, a good psych lim can provide 
the whole situation that makes a character a DNPC. If the hero's cousin is 
a drug addict or a scientist prone to reckless experimentation, requiring 
the hero's assistance is inevitable. 
 
Physical Limitations: DNPC's can take more limiting Phys Lims than most 
PC's, so disadvantages like Weak Heart, Blind, Wheelchair-bound, etc. will 
be more common among them. If overdone, this can get cliche or even 
potentially offensive; but properly used it can extend the range of 
characters in the campaign beyond the physical ideals that most superheroes 
are. 
 
Age: A good one, for the same reasons as Physical Limitations. 
 
Reputation: This is a good one for establishing why it is that trouble 
seeks out the DNPC. An outspoken newspaper editor, a de-powered retired 
superhero, or a former petty hood trying to go straight are likely to draw 
some attention that they might need a hero to escape. 
 
Hunted: This should be used with caution, as a DNPC with a hunted he can't 
handle will amount to giving the PC both the DNPC _and_ the Hunted without 
the compensating points. It can explain, however, how it is that the DNPC 
keeps getting into dangerous situations. 
 
Rivalry: A good natured hero might feel responsible for someone who feels a 
rivalry with him or her. If the hero's personality is appropriate, Rivalry 
may provide the reason why the DNPC gets involved in the hero's adventures. 
 
Even some of the farther out disads can make good elements for a DNPC: 
 
Accidental Change: Jimmy Jensen occasionally turns into Giant Iguana 
Jensen, and needs Tuber Man to stop him from wrecking the city. 
 
Secret Identity: For example, one of the hero's co-workers is actually a 
benign alien trapped on Earth. He just wants to survive among Earth people 
until he gets a chance to go home, but might get caught up in the situation 
when some not-so-benign aliens he recogizes show up. 
 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:00:33 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: Champions Listserv <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Fw: e-moon (fwd) 
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	Is there any way to get this a**hole out of here? 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
 
---------- Forwarded message ---------- 
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 01:28:31 -0600 
From: Mikhael Weitzel <weitzelg@softdisk.com> 
To: mekton-z mailing list <mekton-z@mudhole.spodnet.uk.com&> 
    Fuzion Mailing List <fuzion@pjh.org&> 
    Champions mailing list <champ-l@omg.org&> Terry Oneil <Tone111@aol.com&> 
    Jennifer Cole <jcole@softdisk.com&> 
    George Worthington <georgew@pacaccess.com&> 
    "Andrew Sokolowski (E-mail)" <gizmo@griffin.multimedia.edu> 
Subject: Fw: e-moon (fwd) 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:05:33 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: Champions Listserv <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
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> Er, Uh most Heroes (like, oh, Spiderman for example) rarely have trouble 
> stopping normals with their entangles....So I don't see the problem. If the GM 
> of that particular campaign has no problem with it, I have no problem with 
> it... 
 
	And most heroes would have no problem stopping a normal with a 6 
DEF, ~6 BOD entangle.  However, it is more effective against anybody as 
the def is much more effective. 
 
	And saying if a GM of a particular campaign wants to do it it's 
fine is like saying that if a GM wants to make EB cost 1 pt per die, he 
can.  No one is stopping any GMs from doing what they want with the house 
rules in their campaigns; however, that doesn't mean that unbalanced rules 
will be added to the official set. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:07:50 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City 
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> > 	Anyone ever consider drawing up common location archetypes-- 
> > bars, nightclubs, banks?  What program would you find most useful? 
> 
> You mean like the Locations in the Fantasy Hero Companions?  Those things 
> are completely useless because they did not have scale.  The problem is 
 
	Eh?  I had no problem putting them into the scale I wanted.  No 
problem whatsoever. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: 5th Ed: Fine Manipulation 
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> One more 5th Ed suggestion came to mind yesterday. Fine Manip for TK 
> allows the hero to pull levers, type, etc. Why not allow Fine Manip to 
> be used on other powers as well? For an extra 10 points, now my fire EB 
> can weld doors, or my bola entangle can be used to knock a pool ball 
> into a pocket. 
 
	Mostly as these _minor_ effects of a power are simply a matter of 
SFX.  You can do them if they fit the SFX of the power, plain and simple. 
No need to spend any more points. 
 
> It's a lot like Fuzion's Use Power skill, or Marvel's Power Stunts. 
 
	Yup.  But it comes for free in Hero.  If you're a mean GM, you 
could require something like a "use power" skill. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 08:21:40 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The Compleat Super City 
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At 01:52 PM 4/1/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
>Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City 
 
>> least at this time.  That's what I'm planning on for Northwest Champions, 
>> and what I'm recommending to Tim for his Chicago sourcebook.  For the level 
>> of things you're doing, Mark, I'd want to wait quite a while before testing 
>> the waters for geographic supplements at GRG. 
> 
> I'd really tend to agree.  Though The Ultimate Super City, The 
>Ultimate Fantasy City, and The Ultimate Space Station might work well as a 
>GRG release. 
 
   I think so, though even so I'd probably suggest that Mark wait until the 
San Angelo line is well established before stepping into those waters. 
(And as noted elsewhere, and reflected by my change in the Subject header, 
I think "Compleat" is arguably a better term.) 
 
>>    Maybe you could *eventually* put out a single volume giving some general 
>> details on "hot" US cities like NYC, LA, SF, Miami, New Orleans, Chicago, 
>> Honolulu, and a few others.  (And I'm talking here about places that seem 
>> to be popular places *among writers* for placing adventures in books, TV, 
>> etc.; it doesn't necessarily follow that these are the *ideal* places for 
>> such adventure, or the most significant or interesting cities overall.) 
> 
> Agreed.  One, or a small series with broad areas (Pacific Coast. 
>Midwest.  South.  Atlantic Coast) would do OK.  Individual cities I'd keep 
>to Hero Plus unless the demand seems strong enough for a book release. 
 
   Quite so, and that judged on an individual basis (with the 
campaign-specific material probably reworked to the San Angelo Universe). 
--- 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 08:29:44 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
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At 01:53 PM 4/1/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
>Cc: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org> 
>Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
>>    1) Is there any real reason to not be able to buy DEF and BODY 
>> separately for 5 pts each?  (This would eliminate "Entangle with No 
>> Defense" and "Entangle with 1 BODY" as Limitations, and make them just 
>> another way to structure the Entangle.)  An Entangle worth 50 Active Points 
>> (sans Advantages) would be 5 DEF, 5d6; couldn't I just as easily have one 
>> that's 8 DEF, 2d6 or 2 DEF, 8d6? 
> 
> Nope.  I'm sure others will join in, but this is unbalancing to 
>the extent that the DEF is more effective than the BOD on average.  The 
>DEF will apply to every attack against the entangle, only moving on to 
>loseing BOD when it is breached.  A normal can escape a 3 DEF, 3 BOD 
>entangle with a few good rolls over time.  A 4 DEF, 2 BOD or 5 DEF 1 BOD 
>entangle would be impossible to escape from. 
 
   Based on this point and others' discussion of it, I think I'll modify 
this to 6 points per DEF and 4 points per BODY.  This is the same 
proportion that a regular character would have to pay (3 for 1 DEF Armor, 2 
for 1 BODY). 
   As for normals escaping, try flipping that over and see what a low-level 
Brick with 40 STR could do.  From the 3/3 Entangle, it'd take him a half 
phase to get out, but the other two you mention he'd be able to shred and 
still have a full Phase to go.  That BODY is good for something that the 
DEF can't do, after all...  :-] 
 
>>    3) I've seen an occasional instance of Entangles in comics and sci-fi 
>> that are capable of rebuilding themselves - in other words, Regeneration. 
>> I'd structure this as Regeneration taken as part of the Entangle, costing 
>> END as part of the Entangle and applying only to the BODY of the Entangle. 
>> I'm not sure whether this should cost 5 points or 10 points per BODY 
>> recovered every Turn (I'm leaning toward the former, given the limited 
>> utility, but I could be convinced otherwise). 
> 
> Hmmm.  What about an AID to the BOD of the entangle?  Or perhaps 
>make the Entangle persistant or continuous? 
 
   I've thought about various applications of Aid, and this may be unusual 
enough warrant simply having some variation on that instead.  It's just an 
idea I'm throwing out for consideration. 
 
>>    4) Entangle seems like the most likely game mechanic for building 
>> bridges and (especially if suggestions #1 and #2 above are taken) other 
>> objects like chairs.  But what would be the holding capacity?  I lean 
>> toward the idea of 5 STR per DEF+BODY, with the weight above that (starting 
>> over from 0) acting as a Normal Damage attack based on the STR needed to 
>> carry that weight, but there are a lot of different ways of approaching 
>> this and few are any less valid than mine. 
> 
> Your way looks good to me.  Or maybe just 5 STR per def of the 
>entangle?  Or 5 STR per BOD of the entangle?  The latter would allow you 
>to add on to the entangle, adding BOD at 1 pt per as normal entangle 
>attacks do. 
 
   I'm not sure what distinction you're making here. 
 
>>    5) Could we please have some concrete examples of using Entangle for 
>> making a barrier?  This was mentioned in passing in the 4th Edition, but a 
>> few more details are needed -- like, does the barrier cover two-hex sides, 
>> three hex-sides, a line through the middle of the hex, the whole hex, or 
>> something else? 
> 
> This would be nice, though I suspect the answers to your questions 
>will result in a "depends on SFX".  I'd hate it to be any other way. 
 
   As usual, if it depends on SFX, then that should be stated.  :-] 
--- 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 08:33:34 -0800 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Ed: Fine Manipulation 
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At 07:11 AM 4/1/1998 -0800, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
>One more 5th Ed suggestion came to mind yesterday. Fine Manip for TK 
>allows the hero to pull levers, type, etc. Why not allow Fine Manip to 
>be used on other powers as well? For an extra 10 points, now my fire EB 
>can weld doors, or my bola entangle can be used to knock a pool ball 
>into a pocket. 
> 
>It's a lot like Fuzion's Use Power skill, or Marvel's Power Stunts. 
 
  I like this idea... it could also be used for laser surgery, and it could 
be a required element for Bouncing an attack (instead of limiting it to 
just EB and making it a freebie). 
--- 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 08:42:09 -0800 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re:  5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
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At 10:17 PM 3/31/1998 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>At 04:18 PM 3/31/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>At 05:13 PM 3/31/1998 EST, Hero Games wrote: 
>>>In a message dated 3/31/98 2:43:33 PM, bob.greenwade@klock.com wrote: 
>>> 
>>><<1) Is there any real reason to not be able to buy DEF and BODY 
>>>separately for 5 pts each?>> 
>>> 
>>>Yes, actually. One could effectively restrain normals with a high DEF, low 
>>>BODY Entangle, and it would probably be too cheap. 
>> 
>>   The thing is, though, that high-damage characters (like most supers) 
>>could tear through the thing in nothing flat.  Sure a normal could be 
>>pretty easily bound by an 8 DEF/2 BODY Entangle, but anyone doing 12 BODY 
>>to it (not too hard even in a 10DC game) gets a full phase after shredding 
>>it.  Even 7 DEF/3 BODY wouldn't be that far off the mark. 
> 
>And then what of the +1/2 Entangle with 1 BODY advantage?  Your way would 
>go from 8 DEF/2 BODY = 50 Active Points to 10 DEF/1 BODY = 75 Active 
>Points.  That advantage is there for a reason. 
 
   Well, for one thing, Entangle with 1 BODY is a -1/2 Limitation, not a 
+1/2 Advantage. 
   For another (and this happened after you posted this message, so it's 
not your fault), I've changed the suggested costs from 5 for each to 6 for 
DEF and 4 for BODY, to match the proportions given to regular characters. 
   For another, 10 DEF 1 BODY Entangle is 100 Active Points under 4th Ed, 
55 Active Points under my previous suggestion, and 64 Active Points under 
my current suggestion.  I don't know how you arrived at 75 Active Points. 
 
>As a GM, I hate entangle.  You have make all of your agents have high 
>strength to avoid losing 1/2 phase just before a haymaker, or worse, a 
>sweep.  A friend of mine loves 4D6 Explosive Entangle.  In a 250 point game 
>it is devistating.  Even SuperAgents end up stuck at least until their next 
>phase.  The brick with the held action steps up and Sweeps them all before 
>their next phase.  It's just horrible.  And God forbid if he actual roll 5 
>or even 6 BODY on the 4D6!  Then there's the 3D6 1 DC/3" Explosive 
>Entangle.  Yuck.  I would never want DEF and BODY to be separated in 
>Entangle.  By house rule, I require that AoE and Explosive advantages 
>bought on Entangles cost double normal. 
 
   Why don't your agents just shoot their way out?  Or even just keep a 
scattered formation in the first place?  I don't think it's a coincidence 
that shoulder to shoulder military formations went out of style at about 
the same time that the hand grenade was invented. 
   Plus, you've just described the perfect way to set your brick up for a 
nasty ambush. 
 
>Don't get me started on Entangle. 
 
   Looks like I'm too late. 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 08:48:26 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
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At 12:35 AM 4/1/1998 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>At 10:18 PM 3/31/98 -0600, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>>> > Your way looks good to me.  Or maybe just 5 STR per def of the 
>>> >entangle?  Or 5 STR per BOD of the entangle?  The latter would allow you 
>>> >to add on to the entangle, adding BOD at 1 pt per as normal entangle 
>>> >attacks do. 
>>> 
>>> Er.. Force Wall?  You might try Force Wall.  The only benefit Entangle has 
>>> it that it is 0 END after you create it.  But Entangle does not have even 
>>> the vaguestly correct mechanic for creating a chair.  A chair you are tied 
>>> to?  Yes.  But, just a chair?  No. 
>> 
>> Sorry, but you are quite wrong.  Entangle can be used to create a 
>>wall/obstruction -- it's right there in the Entangle rules.  It's really 
>>the only power that creates anything. 
> 
>Yes, the sentense you refer to: "An Entangle may also be used to create a 
>"wall" in one hex, depending on the special effects of the Entangle." 
>allows Entangle to create an obstruction.  It does not say anthing about 
>creating a chair or how much such said wall can support.  *I* always 
>assumed that if you use Entangle to put a wall in a hex, the next person to 
>touch the wall becomes entangled by the wall.  When he breaks out of the 
>entangle, the wall goes away. 
 
   Point one:  Of course the rulebook doesn't currently say anything about 
creating simple objects such as chairs with Entangle.  If it had, I 
wouldn't have had reason to bring it up now. 
   Point two:  Your assumption is incorrect, at least by my understanding. 
If an Entangle is used to make a wall, then it makes a wall, not an 
entanglement.  (Like Spider-Man's webbing being used to create a net.) 
 
>And Entangle does not create anything more than an EB does.  Hydro's water 
>based EB leaves a lot more water on the battlefield than Spiderguy leaves 
>webbing behind.  A Force Wall could be "playing cards which appear from 
>nowhere" (1 PD/1 ED, obscures sight). When the Force Wall comes down, the 
>playing cards stay behind.  Remember Entangle creates a "wall" not a wall. 
:-) 
 
   Actually Entangle does create more.  The water and playing cards are 
merely SFX for the Powers in question; the Entanglement, in a way, actually 
is the Power. 
 
>> ForceWall has the disadvantage of being non-persistant, costing 
>>END, and having no BOD score.  Entangle has BOD and won't go away after 
>>bing created.  (Unless, of course, SFX or limitations add that feature.) 
> 
>"Disadvantage" meaning "it costs too much to use," i.e. make persistent? 
>The original poster wanted to create a bridge.  An entangle should hold you 
>in place, not provide transportation.  If you want to be technical about 
>it, you should by a power "create temporary bridges" as Flight, UAO, 
>Persistent, Uncontrolled (bridges last 5 minutes), Only to cross an open 
>space through the air.  But I'll leave that one for Rat.  :-) 
 
   In this case, it's not the bridge that provides transportation; it's the 
characters' feet (or vehicles or whatever). 
   Your construct *might* work for a temporary bridge, but how do you 
create a permanent (or, at least, long-lasting) one?  It seems rather 
awkward to use Transform (the Power currently used to make things from thin 
air) when a mechanic for doing it already exists that is very close to 
what's needed.  All we'd need to do is decide how this aspect would work, 
and there you go. 
 
>  Joe 
>(Arg.. er.. People are ... talking a- ... bout ... Entangle ... 
>Must... control... fist of death!) 
> 
> 
> 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 08:49:13 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
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At 10:40 PM 3/31/1998 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>Er.. Force Wall?  You might try Force Wall.  The only benefit Entangle has 
>it that it is 0 END after you create it.  But Entangle does not have even 
>the vaguestly correct mechanic for creating a chair.  A chair you are tied 
>to?  Yes.  But, just a chair?  No. 
 
   Not *currently*.  That, as I say, is why I'm *suggesting* one. 
--- 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 08:57:04 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 09:57 AM 4/1/1998 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>> On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote:  
>>   
>> > Yes, the sentense you refer to: "An Entangle may also be used to 
create a  
>> > "wall" in one hex, depending on the special effects of the Entangle."  
>> > allows Entangle to create an obstruction.  It does not say anthing about  
>> > creating a chair or how much such said wall can support.  *I* always  
>>   
>>  There's not much extrapolation from Wall to Any Object with Def  
>> and Bod.  It's a pretty similar process.  And, of course, with AE you  
>> could create larger objects.  Or you could add on to your wall in  
>> successive phases.  
> 
>So, can you create a complex machine with entangle?  Suppose my entangle 
>creates a device which causes ropes to string around its victim until the 
>machine is destroyed (Entangle does not take damage advantage, as well). 
>If I create a wall instead, do I end up a tape dispenser, too? 
> 
>I always thought you needed a Transform to create new objects. 
 
   For anything more than just DEF and BODY (and carrying capacity), you 
probably should need either Transform or Summon. 
 
>> > assumed that if you use Entangle to put a wall in a hex, the next 
person to  
>> > touch the wall becomes entangled by the wall.  When he breaks out of the  
>> > entangle, the wall goes away.  
>>   
>>  That's be giving the entangle "sticky" for free.  Or "Trigger:  
>> when touched".  
> 
>Armor is Force Field, 0 END with Persistent for free.  Why can't other 
>powers have other advantages for free? 
 
   Many do, such as Mental Powers being BOECV and Telekinesis being 
Indirect.  But Entangle doesn't get Sticky for free. 
 
>> > "Disadvantage" meaning "it costs too much to use," i.e. make persistent?  
>>   
>>  Meaning it's a short-term power that doesn't create anything  
>> lasting.  
> 
>A persistent, uncontrolled Force Wall will create just as permanent a wall 
>as Entangle will.  The difference is the Force Wall costs more. 
 
   That's a bit of a stretch for purposes of comparison... 
 
>> > The original poster wanted to create a bridge.  An entangle should 
hold you  
>> > in place, not provide transportation.  If you want to be technical about  
>>   
>>  That's your opinion and definately not the BBB's.  We're looking  
>> at rules that explicately support the creation of, at the least, walls  
>> with Def and Bod.  
> 
>Well, that's your opinion, too.  The BBB does not speak either way about 
>moving entangles. 
 
   You are correct, sir!  That's exactly why such a thing is being suggested! 
 
>> > it, you should by a power "create temporary bridges" as Flight, UAO,  
>> > Persistent, Uncontrolled (bridges last 5 minutes), Only to cross an open  
>> > space through the air.  But I'll leave that one for Rat.  :-)  
>>   
>>  Why do the bridges only last 5 minutes.  Within reason, they  
>> should last forever.  Entangle would build a fine bridge, as would  
>> lashing together some logs.  
> 
>Then make the uncontrolled condition, "until destroyed".  Or "until weight 
>limit exceeds 2 tons". 
 
   And you'd have to buy an obscenely high level of Flight so that even 
speedsters could cross unhampered, and Limit it to "Only as fast as 
character's or vehicle's Ground Movement"...  It's just much easier to deal 
with some kind of barrier that keeps those walking, driving, and standing 
on it from falling. 
 
>>  The question is, for either example, how to determine the carrying  
>> capacity.  There's got to be some way to determine if your rope bridge  
>> will hold Mr. Massive.  
> 
>Well, it would be nice to have a creation power.  Tying it to Entangle 
>(whether or not it is already there) is a bit weird.  If I accept that 
>Entangle can be used to create any object, what limitation would you allow 
>for an Entangle that could only create objects? 
> 
>If only someone would make a ruling. 
 
   I'd make that a Redefinition (what most folks around here call a -0 
Limitation), not allowing normal Entangles to create objects. 
   An Entangle that can make entanglements, walls, or objects would, by my 
estimate, get a +1/4 Advantage (or maybe +1/2). 
--- 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:58:11 -0800 (PST) 
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---Todd Hanson  wrote: 
> 
> Mikhael Weitzel wrote: 
> >  
>  
> Can we remove this loser from the list?? 
 
He's not a subscriber - he's just shooting mail at the address.  Sigh! 
Time to increase security... 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 09:03:52 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
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At 10:30 PM 3/31/1998 -0600, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote: 
>>> Actually, I'm almost positive that Classic Organizations had a 
>>>character with ranged, targetting, discriminatory touch. 
>> 
>>   I'm not sure where my copy is at right now, so I can neither confirm nor 
>>contradict this... but I'd sure like it if someone where to point out which 
>>character does this. 
> 
>Tim was correct; Yu'Genothrax has these abilities: 
> 
>Clairsentience with Infrared Vision and Touch, 1/2 END, Linked to Stretching, 
> Clairsentience distance limited to the range of Stretching (8") -1/4 
>Discriminatory Feel 
>+5 Youch Perception 
 
   Typo aside, you are correct, sir.  (I found my CO.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 09:08:34 -0800 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Independent Focus 
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At 12:23 AM 4/1/1998 -0600, Michael Nunn wrote: 
>>> If I had a player try to convince me that a ring fused to his finger was 
>an OAF, I would 
>>> have to assume that his finger was detachable (not that I'd tell him 
>this, it would just get 
>>> detached one day). 
>> 
>> Exactly. 
> 
>Hey, if the person wanting it is strong enough any finger is detachable :-) 
 
   One of the new characters in the VOICE supplement is a sweetheart of a 
fellow who goes by the name of Render.  No, this has nothing to do with 
artwork; he's one of those kids that likes to pull the wings off 
butterflies just to watch them squirm.  Except that he's a brick, and also 
likes to do that with the arms and legs of human beings. 
   Which brings me to another thread... how would you work this, in game 
mechanics terms?  Would it be just a Placed Shot for a 0-point Killing 
Strike?  Grab and Dismember?  An HKA bought with points? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 09:11:23 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Independent Focus 
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At 11:33 PM 3/31/1998 EST, Leah L Watts wrote: 
>>> Do most GMs out there outlaw or limit Independent Focus?  I allow it, 
>IF 
>>> only a minor part of your character's power comes from that focus.  If 
>>> taking the focus would severely cripple you, I don't allow it. 
>> 
>>I allow it, but I find that very few players will actually use (for 
>>anything except rinky-dink powers)  it as they eventually learn it's a 
>>pretty safe bet that focus will get taken away at least once.  Fear is 
>>a useful thing for controlling PCs. 
> 
>I wish I'd had you as a GM the last time I played in a group that allowed 
>Independent Focus.  The guy running a Green Lantern clone decided he 
>didn't have enough points, so he bought all his powers Independent OAF -- 
>power ring, and said in his character origin that the ring was fused to 
>his finger and could not be removed.  The GM didn't see anything wrong 
>with giving the -3 limitation on all this character's powers.  My 
>munchkin allergy really kicked up at this point .... 
 
   That would send bells off in my head as well.  A Focus that can't be 
removed or taken away?  The very definition of a Focus is that it's *not* a 
part of (or fused to) the character's body.  And I'm not sure how 
Independent would be justified in this case either. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 09:12:56 -0800 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: List project 
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At 12:23 AM 4/1/1998 -0600, Michael Nunn wrote: 
>I had an idea for a cool list project... 
> 
>DNPC disadvantages.  There was a cool list in an old AC, but the game has 
>changed so much since then I though as a list we could put together a 
>complete list of "DNPC ONLY" 
>disadvantages... 
> 
>Any comments? 
 
   I must've missed that AC.  What would this be, Disadvantages that are 
only to be used by DNPCs? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 09:17:56 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The Compleat Fantasy City 
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At 12:38 AM 4/1/1998 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< Don't be too sure.  It's been production and financial problems, and not 
>lack of popularity, that have kept Flying Buffalo's award-winning CityBook 
>series going slow (and may have killed it after CB7). >> 
> 
>  According to whom? 
 
   Rick Loomis, the Man In Charge of Flying Buffalo, in email conversations 
with me a few years back.  (At least, that's the impression I got at the 
time; it's possible that I misinterpreted.) 
--- 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 09:20:07 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: The Ultimate Super City 
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At 06:21 AM 4/1/1998 -0500, JASON SULLIVAN wrote: 
> Anyone ever consider drawing up common location archetypes-- 
>bars, nightclubs, banks?  What program would you find most useful? 
> 
> Speaking of archetypes, where is the quicks start random 
>roll Hero thing that a few people on this list were working on? 
 
   You mean the new Hero die-roller that was being talked about?  I've put 
the most recent version of Roller on my website (URL for the main page 
below). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
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From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: List project 
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:20:48 -0600  
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	> 
	>DNPC disadvantages.  There was a cool list in an old AC, but 
the game has 
	>changed so much since then I though as a list we could put 
together a 
	>complete list of "DNPC ONLY" 
	>disadvantages... 
	> 
 
How about: "Blithering Idiot!", "Magnetically Attracts Danger", and... 
	"Uncontrollable Urge to Annoy Hero with Mere Existence!" 
	:-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)  
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
	"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"  
					- Joan of Arc's .sig 
     Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 09:23:42 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Hero Plus Upcoming Works 
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At 09:16 PM 3/31/1998 -0800, Shelley Chrystal Mactyre wrote: 
>At 04:16 PM 3/31/98 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>   No, I caught your post right after you mailed it, and I got mine in 
>>ahead of yours by about a week and a half.  I think Shelley's PRIMUS 
>>manuscript likewise beat me by a couple of days. 
> 
>Just an update on the PRIMUS manuscript situation: it's now in final 
>revisions and ought to be back to Bruce in the next week or two (depending 
>on how busy my new job keeps me).  Then the ball will be safely back in his 
>court. =)  
 
   Hm.... so if everything's kept up to schedule, I should get some word on 
TUSV within the next week or two.  Cool!  :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:33:11 EST 
Subject: Re: Fw: e-moon (fwd) 
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  A juvenile exercise to say the least. And he didn't even have the foresight 
to "blind cc:" the recipients. ::sigh:: 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 10:14:16 -0800 
To: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com&> 
        "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: RE: List project 
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At 11:20 AM 4/1/98 -0600, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA wrote: 
> 
>	> 
>	>DNPC disadvantages.  There was a cool list in an old AC, but 
>the game has 
>	>changed so much since then I though as a list we could put 
>together a 
>	>complete list of "DNPC ONLY" 
>	>disadvantages... 
>	> 
 
Some useful ones are: 
"Hunting Hero" 
"In love with heroes main villain" 
"Rivalry:Hero"  
 
No one ever said a DNPC had to be likeable, after all. 
 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 10:31:14 -0800 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret 
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At 06:49 PM 4/1/1998, qts wrote: 
>>>I forgot to mention this in my last post, but the Prime Rule of 
>>>Diadvantages applies: if the character can Teleport or fly or whatever, 
>>>then he doesn't get a disadvantage worth any points! Not so obviously, 
>>>this also applies to a hero able to hail a taxi... 
>> 
>>   There are certain limitations, though, to "able to hail a taxi": 
>>   "Take me to the intersection of Third and Main, and step on it!" 
>>   "Third and Main?  You mean, where those Destruction Company guys are 
>>   raising a ruckus?  No way!" 
> 
>"Then take me to Fourth and Main." 
 
   "Still too close." 
   "Fifth?" 
   "Nope." 
   "Would you believe Ninth and Rivers?" 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
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From: rcole@ezy.net (Ron Cole) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City 
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 13:38:42 -0500 
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>   You mean the new Hero die-roller that was being talked about?  I've put 
>the most recent version of Roller on my website (URL for the main page 
>below). 
 
I believe he's referring to the program I wrote, and its companion for tracking 
combat phases.  If not, you can find these on Theala's web page at: 
 
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html 
 
They were written in VB 3.0, I have 5.0 now and have contemplated updating them. 
If you try them out and have suggestions, feel free to mail them to me. 
 
Ron 
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Concept Goofs (Re: Cheaters and Balance) 
To: DBStallard@compuserve.com (David Stallard) 
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:47:25 -0800 (PST) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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	Ok, in my reply I'm stepping a little away from math goofs and over 
to concept goofs. 
 
> >   In a case of "creative bookkeeping," though, I'd probably find some 
> ability or abilities on the character's sheet that wasn't vital to his 
> background and hadn't been used thus far, and dock it off.  I'm a little 
> more harsh against sneaks than I am against goofers (probably because I'm a 
> frequent goofer myself).< 
 
	Yeah. I have no sneaks in my current group, but I've had them in the 
past. Dropping any care for points has helped me there. 
	I do have goofs though. Not so much in the math, as in the 
design. Having a group full of people, most of whom are long time 
hero-fans. All of whom learned under their own ways... I get ways of building 
powers that vary widely. Or players who forget important things like any form 
of physical defense. :) I tend to let such 'goofs' do a redesign if the sheet 
ends up with a major loophole which by concept shold not be there. Or even if 
the sheet shows to be too strong in an area that the concept calls for 
weakness. 
	About the only things I've forced revisions on so far are the 
characters who come in with a normal in a suit/android body built using vehicle 
rules. Even though I ignore point totals, and the characters were built to 
power level, the method seemed too stretched for the groups cmfort level. In 
a point-limited game though, it's a great way to make a 150 point character 
who can take out 250 pointers. :) 
	Though last night I found a character who after I finally got the 
game's first physical hit on her (she'd always been mental or energy 
targeted in past), discovered she had about 1/4 the defenses the concept 
called for. So that one gets a free boost from me. Providing the boost made 
still keeps the character within the group's power leel dynamics. 
 
	I'm a pretty major concept goof myself. I come up with what I think 
are great concepts. Then often in the translation to hero process they end 
up as either having major loopholes, or making most powergamers look wimpy. :) 
	My average character takes from 4 to 10 rewrites before I get it to 
be where it should be. :) 
	Though I've got one that's up to about 20 rewrites since '86 and still 
coming out wrong. :) 
 
> Ever since I got HeroMaker, I require my players to use it to make 
> characters, since they are frequent goofers (as am I).  Besides, it's just 
 
	I've considered doing this myself. Half my players are very fond 
of their homemade excell programs however. :) But Heromaker is slowly spreading 
through the ranks. 
	Once Creation Workshop comes out, if it lives up to claims, I'll force 
that one on them. :) 
 
Rook ?U ?k 1b  'several giga pets were mercelessly sacrified to the net gods 
		 in the production of this message'. 
 __ 
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html	Super Hero Links 
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/			Super Hero Roleplay 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:48:25 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
To: Champions Discussion List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: EC Slots 
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On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, qts wrote: 
 
> On Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:28:33 -0600 (CST), Palace of Dwarves wrote: 
>  
> > (e)Suppress 4d6 (1/2 END, vs. SFX all powers) 65 
>  
> Not valid: he needs to specify a *particular* SFX - probably 
> mass/gravity. Further, at this power level, 4d6 Suppress isn't going to 
> do much - he'd be better with a 10d6 Suppress vs any one manifestation 
> of the SFX (+1/4)  
 
I think a better way of handling suppress and other adjustment powers is 
to specify the SFX of *your* power, and then you can try it in play 
against anything it might work against. We went through many examples of 
this already for light controllers and earth controllers. The GM can give 
you bonus or penalty dice based on how well your power SFX seems like it 
will suppress the target you have in mind. 
 
Same for desolidification and other powers. Don't say what affects you 
while desolid, just say *how* you're desolid, and the GM will decide 
whether an effect can hit you or not. 
 
Of course, you're right by the standard reading of the rules. 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Bob Greenwade" <bob.greenwade@klock.com&> 
        "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 98 18:49:42  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret 
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On Mon, 30 Mar 1998 12:59:16 -0800, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>At 08:21 PM 3/30/1998, qts wrote: 
>>>Irrespective of how limiting it is, selling back the everyman Transport  
>>>Familiarity is worth only one point, while the smallest Phys Lim possible  
>>>is worth 5 points.  It is up to the GM to choose which one best  
>>>represents the disadvantage in his campaign.  YMMV, since a superhero  
>>>with Flight or Teleportation has a way around the limitation. 
>> 
>>I forgot to mention this in my last post, but the Prime Rule of 
>>Diadvantages applies: if the character can Teleport or fly or whatever, 
>>then he doesn't get a disadvantage worth any points! Not so obviously, 
>>this also applies to a hero able to hail a taxi... 
> 
>   There are certain limitations, though, to "able to hail a taxi": 
>   "Take me to the intersection of Third and Main, and step on it!" 
>   "Third and Main?  You mean, where those Destruction Company guys are 
>   raising a ruckus?  No way!" 
 
"Then take me to Fourth and Main." 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 10:51:25 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: More things for 5Ed to clarify... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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a)If someone in a mind link goes unconscious, are they still in the link? 
b)What happens if you use telepathy on someone who is knocked out? 
c)If a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound? What if it bought 
Invisible Power Effects? 
d)If you hit a mentalist with a bus, does that break her concentration? 
e)What if you hit her again? 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 98 18:54:38  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret 
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On Tue, 31 Mar 1998 01:25:30 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
> 
>> I'm going to bite on this. I suggest that we need to look more deeply 
>> at the 'Why'. A desert character who cannot swim because he's never 
>> encountered a suitable body of water simply sells back his swimming. 
>> When he gets the opportunity, he can buy off that disad. Likewise, a 
>> character who can't drive because she's never been taught similarly 
>> sells back her TF; but if she couldn't drive because she had a problem 
>> with hand-eye coordination (for example), then that would be a Phys 
>> Lim, and would have other in-game effects. Similarly, a character who 
>> is able to drive, but not legally so (e.g. no license) is not able to 
>> buy back points or get a Limitation. 
> 
>	The reasons really don't matter.  And, as I've already pointed 
>out, there is no way to "buy back" Everyman Skills.  They are either 
>accepted or declined. 
 
Not so - an example explicitly given is a character selling back some 
of his Running to represent being lame. 
 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:56:06 -0800 (PST) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net 
Subject: Re: More things for 5Ed to clarify... 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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---Lizard  wrote: 
> 
> a)If someone in a mind link goes unconscious, are they still in the 
link? 
 
Nope, Mind Link requires the active paticipation of both parties. 
 
 
> b)What happens if you use telepathy on someone who is knocked out? 
 
The same thing that happens if you use it on someone who isn't 
knocked-out (except there ECV is lower). 
 
 
> c)If a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound? 
 
Yes. 
 
> What if it bought Invisible Power Effects? 
 
No 
 
 
> d)If you hit a mentalist with a bus, does that break her 
concentration? 
 
Yes, and probably everything else as well. 
 
 
> e)What if you hit her again? 
 
You spread the puddle around more. 
 
 
== 
 
     John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
============================================ 
Got a question about the list?  Just ask.  Or, you can go 
look over at www.sysabend.org/champions.  I've been 
slowly posting information about the list there. 
 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 98 18:56:41  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret 
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On Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:04:29 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
>> I forgot to mention this in my last post, but the Prime Rule of 
>> Diadvantages applies: if the character can Teleport or fly or whatever, 
>> then he doesn't get a disadvantage worth any points! Not so obviously, 
>> this also applies to a hero able to hail a taxi... 
> 
>	I'll have to be yet another to disagree.  While having powers will 
>take away from the disadvantage value, it won't negate it.  There are 
>certain advantages to being able to drive somewhere -- bing low key is a 
>nice one. 
> 
>	And public transportation doesn't cut it.  Too many chances to run 
>late, get a bad cabbie, etc -- especially if I'm running the game. 
 
Then it is obviously a disadvantage in your games and therefore worth 
some points. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: Pat10355 <Pat10355@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:00:08 EST 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Super City 
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Hi, 
 
Not to relentlessly push San Angelo: City of Heroes <g>, but it's worth noting 
in this thread that one of my design goals is to provide a solid example of a 
"super city." 
 
The government, law enforcement and public safety agencies in the book are all 
modeled on the real world, as are the corporations and many other elements. 
 
In addition, the book is loaded with Campaign Tips on why certain elements 
were included and how to use them in a campaign -- for example, I note that 
Eclipse Industries is an archetypal unethical corporation useful as a hero 
foil, as in the comics. 
 
While the book is a campaign setting, not a "how-to," I hope it will still be 
useful as a guide to creating super cities. A "how-to" book is a neat idea, 
tho. :) 
 
Patrick Sweeney 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Palace of Dwarves" <pod@avalon.net> 
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 98 19:09:24  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: EC Slots 
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On Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:28:33 -0600 (CST), Palace of Dwarves wrote: 
 
> (e)Suppress 4d6 (1/2 END, vs. SFX all powers) 65 
 
Not valid: he needs to specify a *particular* SFX - probably 
mass/gravity. Further, at this power level, 4d6 Suppress isn't going to 
do much - he'd be better with a 10d6 Suppress vs any one manifestation 
of the SFX (+1/4)  
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:09:29 -0500 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Concept Goofs (Re: Cheaters and Balance) 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by Brian Wong 
>       My average character takes from 4 to 10 rewrites before I get it to 
be where it should be. :)< 
 
When I start a new campaign, I usually allow my players to revise their 
characters after we've played a few sessions.  The first few sessions are 
essentially a "testing ground" where they realize shortcomings of their 
concept or the implementation of that concept, and they come up with nifty 
new ideas.  After that, though, I don't allow any revision without me OKing 
it first. 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:09:29 -0500 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Luck / Unluck 
Cc: Hero System Listserv <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
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How common are Unluck (disad) and Luck (perk?) in your campaigns?  My 
players don't take them, and I don't really encourage them, because they 
seem overly broad and it seems like I'd have a hard time remembering to 
factor them in--especially since no player is going to remind me that they 
have Unluck at a critical moment.  If they're used in your game, how often 
do they affect gameplay? 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:15:02 -0500 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>   Point one:  Of course the rulebook doesn't currently say anything about 
creating simple objects such as chairs with Entangle.  If it had, I 
wouldn't have had reason to bring it up now. 
   Point two:  Your assumption is incorrect, at least by my understanding. 
If an Entangle is used to make a wall, then it makes a wall, not an 
entanglement.  (Like Spider-Man's webbing being used to create a net.)< 
 
I see your point about how Entangle can be used to make objects, but I 
think "Entangle" is a poor name for a power that creates chairs.  I think 
it would be best to split Entangle and this "create object" power into two 
distinct powers.  Basically, Entangle should not be the only power which 
allows you to create something with BODY and DEF. 
 
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From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Martial Trip? 
To: champ-l@omg.org (champions listserv) 
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:27:29 -0500 (EST) 
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I was looking through the martial arts maneuvers (sp?) and 
found something obviously missing.  From my limited martial 
arts knowledge (watching Jackie Chan movies and playing 
Tekken 3) it seems to me that martial artists trip the people 
they're fighting all the time.  Is anyone aware of a "martial 
trip" maneuver (sp?) in any of the suppliments?  Failing that, 
has anyone written up an optional rule for their campaign 
they'd be willing to share? 
 
-Eric 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:34:55 -0500 
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us> 
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: No Invasions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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I suspect the reason there was only response the first time  
was that invasions are so common that people assumed others  
had stuff to tell and weren't specifically motivated to describe  
the incidents from their own games - kind of like asking "Do you  
have any crime in your superhero games?" 
 
I'm guessing that anyway - I was just busy at work. 
 
 
My longest-running Champions game had a long-running conflict  
that resulted in a full-blown invasion at one point. There were two 
factions - a democratic federation of silicon based life forms, and  
an authoritarian regime composed of two races: the brutal and  
superhumanly strong Santar and the insectoid Morabengi.  
 
The silicon-based aliens would have been pretty benign, except for 
one problem - they did not recognize carbon-based beings as life,  
and refused to consider them sentients. For the most part, they  
simply ignored planets with carbon-based life. 
 
The Santar-Morabengi alliance, on the other hand, were out to  
conquer. Early in the campaign, a scout ship came to check out  
Earth. The PC's engineered an elaborate ruse to lead the aliens  
to reject the Earth as a potential target. This ruse involved framing  
the Santar commander (who wanted to mount a full-scale invasion)  
as a traitor to the Alliance, resulting in his being left behind  
on Earth. The Santar commander soon found employment with the U.S.  
government, becoming Strongarm, the resident super-guard of  
Stronghold.  
 
Meanwhile, one of the PC's - the Wraith - got his teleportation/ 
desolidification powers from salvaged crystaline technology of  
the silicon-based Federation. As the campaign progressed, the  
Wraith began to metamorphose both physically and mentally.  
Eventually he came to consider himself a member of one of the  
Federation species, and went off into space to join his people. 
 
Things came to a head when the Federation decided that Earth was  
a key strategic location in their war against the Santar-Morabengi  
Alliance. They proceeded to set up bases there, considering this  
an act of colonization rather than invasion, since there was no  
significant life on the planet. Leading the "colonization" fleet  
was the Wraith. Since the Wraith had been pretty overbearing even  
in his superhero days, the response of the PCs was "Oh good! Now  
we get to kill him!" 
 
The primary forces of the Federation invasion were hemispherical  
fortresses which flew through space, then landed to become bases.  
Each base was capable of withstanding a nuclear blast and had  
considerable attacks of its own; most major world cities had  
one of these bases established there.  
 
While the PC group joined other heroes from around the world in  
fighting the invading forces, the Wraith faced a crisis of  
conscience. (The player, who had moved away at the point when  
the Wraith departed into space, was back visiting.) He argued  
for moderation in the colonization effort, but ultimately stayed  
loyal to his adopted species. However, a faction did exist within  
the Federation that had more broad-minded views of carbon-based  
life. A conspirator from this faction contacted the other PC's,  
recruiting them into an assassination plan which would alter the  
political situation of the Federation, thus reversing the colonizatoin  
plans. 
 
Assassinations were certainly not standard activities in this  
campaign - many of the PC's had codes vs. killing, and even those  
that didn't were not casual killers. This was war, however, and  
Earth was losing; even the idealists realized that the extreme  
situation called for extreme actions. The PC's refused to act as  
assassins, but agreed to combat the Federations superbeings while  
the silicon conspirators took whatever actions they deemed necessary. 
A couple of the PC's spent experience to buy down their CAK's to a  
lower level, since everybody knew what was going to happen. 
 
Once the Federation politics were destabilized, Earth needed at  
least one victory to motivate the aliens to leave. The PC's, along  
with some unlikely allies (including Strongarm), mounted a full  
assault on the fortress in their city. The climactic battle  
wound to a close as one of the PC's - appropriately enough named  
Mr. Earth - fought the Wraith as overloading engines flooded the  
fortress with radiation. The rest of the PC's escaped just in time  
as a small nuclear explosion occured within the fortress, wiping out 
the local invaders - and seemingly Strongarm, the Wraith, and Mr.  
Earth.  
 
A few hours later, Strongarm crawled from the wreckage - the  
Santar were an extremely tough species, having evolved on a  
high-gravity radioactive planet. And the PC's weren't entirely  
convinced that the Wraith was dead, since he was a long-distance  
teleporter. But Mr. Earth had clearly sacrificed his life to save  
his planet, and a monument to him was erected at the site where  
the fortress had stood. (Mr. Earth came back in another guise  
later in the campaign, but that's another story.) 
 
The Federation withdrew within hours of the fortress's destruction,  
and Earth was free. The invasion had been one of the biggest  
adventures in my campaign, lasting quite a few sessions, killing  
(pretty much anyway) one of the PC's, marking the Wraith forever  
a villain, and leaving the rest of the group changed by the  
experience. 
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: The Compleat Fantasy City 
To: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Bob Greenwade) 
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:47:26 -0800 (PST) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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> ><< Don't be too sure.  It's been production and financial problems, and not 
> >lack of popularity, that have kept Flying Buffalo's award-winning CityBook 
> >series going slow (and may have killed it after CB7). >> 
> >  According to whom? 
>  
>    Rick Loomis, the Man In Charge of Flying Buffalo, in email conversations 
> with me a few years back.  (At least, that's the impression I got at the 
> time; it's possible that I misinterpreted.) 
 
	They always have a booth at the local cons here. It never seems to get 
that much traffic. But this is from a passerby's point of view. The only 
time I do see people there is when they're playing Lost Worlds with the booth 
people. Here in San Francisco, the Citybooks have been in the 20% discount 'try 
out these obscure items' bin for at least a year. But then, Heavy Gear's in that 
bin too. And I know it's a high seller. 
 
Rook ?U ?k 1b  'no giga pets were harmed in the production of this message'. 
 __ 
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html	Super Hero Links 
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/			Super Hero Roleplay 
 
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 13:48:51 -0600 (CST) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Concept Goofs (Re: Cheaters and Balance) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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 Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes:  
>  
> 	Ok, in my reply I'm stepping a little away from math goofs and over 
> to concept goofs. 
>  
> 	I do have goofs though. Not so much in the math, as in the 
> design. Having a group full of people, most of whom are long time 
> hero-fans. All of whom learned under their own ways... I get ways of building 
> powers that vary widely. Or players who forget important things like any form 
> of physical defense. :) I tend to let such 'goofs' do a redesign if the sheet 
> ends up with a major loophole which by concept shold not be there. Or even if 
> the sheet shows to be too strong in an area that the concept calls for 
> weakness. 
 
Concept goofs ?  As in characters that aren't sufficiently 'balanced' in 
game terms ?   
 
> 	I'm a pretty major concept goof myself. I come up with what I think 
> are great concepts. Then often in the translation to hero process they end 
> up as either having major loopholes, or making most powergamers look wimpy. :) 
 
Are these just character concepts that don't fit well within the Hero system  
or what ?  
 
> 	Though I've got one that's up to about 20 rewrites since '86 and still 
> coming out wrong. :) 
 
Is that the speedster character on your web site ?   
 
I guess my idea of concept goofs would be: 
 
1) characters that can't be modelled appropriately using the hero system 
2) concepts that aren't right for the intended game 
 
Curt  
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:00:25 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
To: Champions Discussion List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Luck / Unluck 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, David Stallard wrote: 
 
> How common are Unluck (disad) and Luck (perk?) in your campaigns?  My 
> players don't take them, and I don't really encourage them, because they 
> seem overly broad and it seems like I'd have a hard time remembering to 
> factor them in--especially since no player is going to remind me that they 
> have Unluck at a critical moment.  If they're used in your game, how often 
> do they affect gameplay? 
 
In the EVIL campaign, all villains have 2d6 unluck by default. They have 
to pay points if they want to buy it off. 
 
Whenever the villains are winning, it's time to check everyone's unluck! 
Fun for everyone. 
 
Supers in this campaign often have luck, to help them if they start 
losing. "Normal" Hero concepts can especially use it. 
 
The luckiest character in the campaign has 16d6 of luck! 
 
Luck and unluck come into play several times every campaign session 
because almost everyone has it. As such, it's difficult to forget about 
it. 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:01:13 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
To: Champions Discussion List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Martial Trip? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, Eric Burns wrote: 
 
> I was looking through the martial arts maneuvers (sp?) and 
> found something obviously missing.  From my limited martial 
> arts knowledge (watching Jackie Chan movies and playing 
> Tekken 3) it seems to me that martial artists trip the people 
> they're fighting all the time.  Is anyone aware of a "martial 
> trip" maneuver (sp?) in any of the suppliments?  Failing that, 
> has anyone written up an optional rule for their campaign 
> they'd be willing to share? 
 
Legsweep? 
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Martial Trip? 
To: burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu (Eric Burns) 
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:02:13 -0800 (PST) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>  
> I was looking through the martial arts maneuvers (sp?) and 
> found something obviously missing.  From my limited martial 
> they're fighting all the time.  Is anyone aware of a "martial 
> trip" maneuver (sp?) in any of the suppliments?  Failing that, 
> has anyone written up an optional rule for their campaign 
> they'd be willing to share? 
 
	Legsweep in Ninja Hero and TUMA. 
 
Rook ?U ?k 1b  'no giga pets were harmed in the production of this message'. 
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/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html	Super Hero Links 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:09:42 -0500 
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us> 
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: Martial Trip? 
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 Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> wrote: 
 
>>>>> 
 
I was looking through the martial arts maneuvers (sp?) and 
found something obviously missing.  From my limited martial 
arts knowledge (watching Jackie Chan movies and playing 
Tekken 3) it seems to me that martial artists trip the people 
they're fighting all the time.  Is anyone aware of a "martial 
trip" maneuver (sp?) in any of the suppliments?  Failing that, 
has anyone written up an optional rule for their campaign 
they'd be willing to share? 
 
<<<<< 
 
I'm sure there will be a flood of replies telling you this, but  
I'll do so anyway: the standard maneuver for a trip is Martial Throw. 
Keep in mind that the maneuver names don't dictate the SFX of  
an attack any more than a power's name does - what matters is  
the effect. In this case, the maneuver puts somebody on the  
ground painfully - you can call it a throw or a trip, but the  
result is the same. 
 
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From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: San Angelo: COH 
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:13:32 -0600  
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Has this been officially released yet? 
Haven't seen it. Local game stores not 
heard of it. Did it get delayed again? 
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
	"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"  
					- Joan of Arc's .sig 
     Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:13:34 -0500 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Concept Goofs (Re: Cheaters and Balance) 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by Brian Wong 
>       I've considered doing this myself. Half my players are very fond 
of their homemade excell programs however. :)< 
 
The problem with this is that, if the player frequently goofs up the 
numbers, then the Excel program might also be a  goofer.  Heromaker is 
safer in that regard, since we can be somewhat confident that the formulas 
were tested and verified. 
 
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:13:59 -0600 (CST) 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Martial Trip? 
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 Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
>  
> I was looking through the martial arts maneuvers (sp?) and 
> found something obviously missing.  From my limited martial 
> arts knowledge (watching Jackie Chan movies and playing 
> Tekken 3) it seems to me that martial artists trip the people 
> they're fighting all the time.  Is anyone aware of a "martial 
> trip" maneuver (sp?) in any of the suppliments?  Failing that, 
> has anyone written up an optional rule for their campaign 
> they'd be willing to share? 
>  
 
What do you see as the difference between a 'martial trip' and the existing 
martial throw maneuver or maneuvers ? 
 
Curt 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:27:19 -0500 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Supplement request 
Cc: Hero System Listserv <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
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Some people might think this is goofy, but I'd really like to see more of 
those cardboard character "miniatures" that came with the 4E GM's screen.  
Not only are there not enough of them, but they look pretty dated (no more 
bellbottom pants, please!).  I don't know if there's any need for a 5E GM's 
screen that could include these, but my group finds them very useful seeing 
that "real" superhero miniatures are virtually impossible to find (I know 
Hero made some a long time ago, but they're all gone as far as I know). 
 
What I'd really like to see is something along the lines of what Car Wars 
did at some point (maybe they still do, I dunno).  They supplied lots of 
color counters, but then they also supplied some "blank" counters with just 
the outline of cars, and you could color them however you wanted.  In 
Champions, this would essentially be miniature versions of the silhouettes 
that are on the character sheets, except that you could fold them into that 
triangular shape so that they would stand up.  Players could photocopy 
these, which wouldn't be as high quality as cardboard (maybe they could be 
weighted with a penny or something) but would provide an endless supply.  I 
can't imagine that such a "supplement" would be expensive to produce, but 
maybe I'm underestimating the cost of a few good artists.  I would request 
that the silhouettes NOT have the gridwork or excessive shading that is on 
the Fuzion silhouettes, though. 
 
I'm curious...how many people use the cardboard miniatures from the GM's 
screen?  If you don't use them, then what do you use?  For the PCs and 
major villains, we choose cardboard miniatures that are somewhat close to 
the character concept and/or look, but I use dice as counters for agents 
and whatnot, using the number on the die to tell me which is Agent #1, #2, 
and so forth. 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:35:15 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret 
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> >	The reasons really don't matter.  And, as I've already pointed 
> >out, there is no way to "buy back" Everyman Skills.  They are either 
> >accepted or declined. 
> 
> Not so - an example explicitly given is a character selling back some 
> of his Running to represent being lame. 
 
	That's not a skill, that's a characteristic.  Selling back 
characteristics is quite allowed. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "DPL" == Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> writes: 
 
DPL> Thanks for the input, Jim and Theala, but I don't think anyone's 
DPL> forgotten this. The very first entry in this thread asks something 
DPL> like "why use block instead of dodge? Is it just attacking before 
DPL> someone on your next phase or am I missing something?" 
 
Well, like I said, as long as your Blocking OCV is higher than your 
attacker's OCVs, and they are using melee attacks, Block provides a 
superior defense.  If your Blocking OCV is lower than your attacker's OCVs, 
or they are using ranged attacks, Dodge is a superior defense. 
 
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Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:36:59 -0600 (CST) 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net> 
Subject: Re: More things for 5Ed to clarify... 
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At 10:51 AM 4/1/98 -0800, you wrote: 
>a)If someone in a mind link goes unconscious, are they still in the link? 
Nope 
 
>b)What happens if you use telepathy on someone who is knocked out? 
Same thing as if they were awake, but the thoughts are more random. 
 
>c)If a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound? What if it bought 
>Invisible Power Effects? 
Yup.  Depends on what effects it has(sight, sound, mind scan... :)) 
 
>d)If you hit a mentalist with a bus, does that break her concentration? 
Only if they require concentration to use there power. 
 
>e)What if you hit her again? 
She takes a long nap. 
 
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: More things for 5Ed to clarify... 
To: lizard@mrlizard.com (Lizard) 
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:37:17 -0800 (PST) 
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>  
> a)If someone in a mind link goes unconscious, are they still in the link? 
> b)What happens if you use telepathy on someone who is knocked out? 
> c)If a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound? What if it bought 
> Invisible Power Effects? 
 
	This is like the ol' sound of one hannd clapping thing... :) 
 
> d)If you hit a mentalist with a bus, does that break her concentration? 
> e)What if you hit her again? 
 
	Ok, stop pullng in in game references... You know the answer, the 
little 'Wiz of Oz' slippers end up popping out from the underside of the 
buz and several small members of the demon horde break into song... :) 
 
Ok... But seriously... a and b are good points. 
 
I'd also like to add: 
 
 
Add in some of the manuevers from champions II. 
Add in an item wieght/body/def table like that in champs II. 
 
Make a brick wielding a bus (with more body and def total than the number of 
	dice his punch gives) actually do extra damage. Otherwise, all the 
	'made' hth weapons in the game violate the normal rules on this. After 
	all, why should a club give a normal a damage boost, but the Empire 
	State Building not? 
 
How much Str does it take to stop a moving bus? (A classic comic book manuever, 
	how do you do it in champions without resorting to the now out of 
	date collision rules in Champions II) For that matter, how do you 
	do an attempt to stop any given object with velocity and mass using 
	your strength? 
 
Can Change Environment be used to decrease gravity? Increase it? How so? 
 
Can Change environment be used to do a Super Speed cleaning of a room? Reading 
	the entire magazinne rack at the bookstore? If not, considering it's 
	a common speedster effect, how can it be done? 
 
Please use Fuzion's version of regeneration. 
 
Advantaged Advantage. Reverse of limited. Worded with lots of "GM use with 
care and feel free to retcon out anything you accept if it proves bad after the 
fact" and similar info. Use would be to allow customizing of powers and to 
let people know that doing such is encouraged in games. While this is obvious 
to long time gamers; many people get a 'stick in the mud view' that makes this 
sort of thing become heresy in their eyes unless it is actually covered in 
print. 
 
Does multiform damage transfer (ala a lycanthrope) or not tranfer (ala the 
seperate bodies switching in/out). Is it a special effects call? If it is I 
propose: 
	when it does transfer, transfer is porpotional. form A take 10 from 
it's 40 body score. Form B has only 8 body. Changing to form B means it is 
down by 1/4 it's body total (down by 2). Changing back to A means you are still 
down by 1/4 total. 
 
	In effects where it does not transfer, only the active body gets any 
recoveries, regens, heals, aids, or may be affected by any situation. The 
inactive body is considered to be in a form of statis and when switched to will 
be in the exact same condition it was in when it was last active. 
	This effect is most prominent in the MiricleMan comic book from Eclipse 
comics in the late 80s. 
 
	If all transforms have damage transfer, then define how the MiricleMan 
concept can be done. Keep in mind that even the damage of a supernova should 
not hurt the inactive body. So an aid linked to transform would not cover it. 
 
 
	There's more... But that's all I can think of right now 
 
Rook ?U ?k 1b  'no giga pets were harmed in the production of this message'. 
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/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html	Super Hero Links 
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/			Super Hero Roleplay 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:37:24 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Compleat Super City 
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> > I'd really tend to agree.  Though The Ultimate Super City, The 
> >Ultimate Fantasy City, and The Ultimate Space Station might work well as a 
> >GRG release. 
> 
>    I think so, though even so I'd probably suggest that Mark wait until the 
> San Angelo line is well established before stepping into those waters. 
> (And as noted elsewhere, and reflected by my change in the Subject header, 
> I think "Compleat" is arguably a better term.) 
 
	Why?  I'm not arguing, just don't see anything arguable better or 
worse. 
 
>    Quite so, and that judged on an individual basis (with the 
> campaign-specific material probably reworked to the San Angelo Universe). 
 
	That'd go without saying, I'd imagine. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:40:03 -0500 (EST) 
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Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>  wrote:  
[snip] 
>    Point two:  Your assumption is incorrect, at least by my understanding.  
> If an Entangle is used to make a wall, then it makes a wall, not an  
> entanglement.  (Like Spider-Man's webbing being used to create a net.)  
[snip] 
>    Actually Entangle does create more.  The water and playing cards are  
> merely SFX for the Powers in question; the Entanglement, in a way, actually  
> is the Power.  
 
This is what I don't get.  The game mechanic called Entangle is used to 
prevent someone from moving (entanglement).  Force Wall is used to prevent 
someone from getting from point A to point B (a wall). 
 
Entangle has one sentense which does not work with the rest of its own 
description.  Can you put backlash on an entangle-made wall?  Does this 
mean that someone punching the wall takes damage back from the wall?  How 
about Entangle does not take damage?  This creates a wall which you can 
shoot through unless you target the wall specifically?  This does not make 
sense.  I'm sorry I did not notice all of the holes in this rule sooner. 
I would have even more reasons to hate Entangle. 
 
(Yes, I am arguing against the BBB.  If I had to make a tournament ruling, 
I'd be with you.) 
 
> >> ForceWall has the disadvantage of being non-persistant, costing  
> >>END, and having no BOD score.  Entangle has BOD and won't go away after  
> >>bing created.  (Unless, of course, SFX or limitations add that feature.)  
> >  
> >"Disadvantage" meaning "it costs too much to use," i.e. make persistent?  
> >The original poster wanted to create a bridge.  An entangle should hold you  
> >in place, not provide transportation.  If you want to be technical about  
> >it, you should by a power "create temporary bridges" as Flight, UAO,  
> >Persistent, Uncontrolled (bridges last 5 minutes), Only to cross an open  
> >space through the air.  But I'll leave that one for Rat.  :-)  
>   
>    In this case, it's not the bridge that provides transportation; it's the  
> characters' feet (or vehicles or whatever).  
>    Your construct *might* work for a temporary bridge, but how do you  
> create a permanent (or, at least, long-lasting) one?  It seems rather  
> awkward to use Transform (the Power currently used to make things from thin  
> air) when a mechanic for doing it already exists that is very close to  
> what's needed.  All we'd need to do is decide how this aspect would work,  
> and there you go.  
 
Under what circumstances does my power not work? 
 
> >  Joe  
> >(Arg.. er.. People are ... talking a- ... bout ... Entangle ...  
> >Must... control... fist of death!)  
 
*THWOOOM* 
 
Here's my normal problem with Entangle: 
 
Compare these two powers: 
A) 3D6 Entangle (SFX: A semi-transparent hand grabs hold of the target) 
 
B) 30 points TK, grabs only (SFX: A semi-transparent hand grabs hold of 
      things) 
 
Active cost for A: 30, for B: 45 (real: 36) 
END cost for A: 3 (once), for B: 4 (each phase) 
 
Power A can effect one target each phase and hold any number of targets 
who have not escaped. 
Power B can only effect one target at a time. 
 
C) In Power B terms, Power A is: 30 STR TK, 0 END, Persistent, 
Uncontrolled, grabs only, costs 6 END to activate 
 
Power C has an active cost of 135 (real: 90 with costs 6 END as a -1/4!) 
and is basically the same as Power A. 
 
I realize that the STR vs. STR rolls with a grab favor the grabber.  In 
that way, a 30 STR grab requires the victim to roll 7 BODY on his strength 
roll, so let's look at Power D: 
 
D) 6D6 Entangle, Only one BODY (-1 1/2?) 
Active cost for D: 60 (real: 24, I forget the limitation value on that 
but it is going to be less than Power C's 90.) 
 
My point is that Entangle is undercosted.  Entangles take normals out of 
combat faster than RKAs.  (A 2D6 Entangle will hold a normal for about 5 
phases, or 3 turns.  A 20 Active point RKA will do 4 BODY.)  In a 250 
point, 60 AP Limit game, a 6D6 Entangle stops everybody except the pure 
brick (and the non-focus based energy projector).  Any other character 
will lose a couple phases trying to get out, many more phases if their 
strength is less than 35. 
 
With all of that, you want to give this power the ability to create stuff? 
 
  Joe 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:42:43 -0600 (CST) 
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From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net> 
Subject: Luck / Unluck 
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>Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:09:29 -0500 
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
>Subject: Luck / Unluck 
>Cc: Hero System Listserv <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
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> 
>How common are Unluck (disad) and Luck (perk?) in your campaigns?  My 
>players don't take them, and I don't really encourage them, because they 
>seem overly broad and it seems like I'd have a hard time remembering to 
>factor them in--especially since no player is going to remind me that they 
>have Unluck at a critical moment.  If they're used in your game, how often 
>do they affect gameplay? 
> 
 
        For some insane reason, I usually end up with at least one gamer who 
will take a die of Unluck.  Being as how he is the only one to have it, it 
makes it easier on me to remember who has it and who doesn't. 
        One example from my last session where that die of Unluck came into 
play.  While fighting some VIPER Mech's, the team dropped down from the 
ceiling to surprise them(didn't work).  They began fighting away.  A phase 
later, the member that has DI decided to drop down from above.  He was 
hoping to crush one of the Mech.  Unfortunately that 1d6 of Unluck came into 
play.  Seeing as how there were 2 Mechs and 1 of his teammates below him, I 
decided that his d6 of Unluck might come into play.  and so it did. 
        Needless to say, he almost crushed his teammate when he dropped. 
Lucky for his teammate that he had held his action for that phase. 
 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:45:16 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champions listserv <champ-l@omg.org> 
Subject: Re: Martial Trip? 
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> I was looking through the martial arts maneuvers (sp?) and 
> found something obviously missing.  From my limited martial 
> arts knowledge (watching Jackie Chan movies and playing 
> Tekken 3) it seems to me that martial artists trip the people 
> they're fighting all the time.  Is anyone aware of a "martial 
> trip" maneuver (sp?) in any of the suppliments?  Failing that, 
> has anyone written up an optional rule for their campaign 
> they'd be willing to share? 
 
	Simply use the throw or martial throw maneuvers. 
 
	You're making the mistake of confusing the name and effect.  You 
want the effect of putting your opponent on to the ground and doing some 
damage.  The throw maneuvers do this. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com&> champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net> 
Subject: Re: Independent Focus 
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> 
>   One of the new characters in the VOICE supplement is a sweetheart of a 
>fellow who goes by the name of Render.  No, this has nothing to do with 
>artwork; he's one of those kids that likes to pull the wings off 
>butterflies just to watch them squirm.  Except that he's a brick, and also 
>likes to do that with the arms and legs of human beings. 
>   Which brings me to another thread... how would you work this, in game 
>mechanics terms? 
 In game mechanics terms, I would rule it as a MAJOR Transform w/ cumulative 
effect.  I would also require a grab roll to be made.  Keeping with that, I 
would also allow the poor individual that was about to become armless to 
make a STR role to try and break free of the hold.   
(SEE PAGE 164 IN BBB) 
 
>Would it be just a Placed Shot for a 0-point Killing Strike? 
Uhh... no. 
 
>Grab and Dismember? 
Uhhh...  yeah. 
 
>An HKA bought with points? 
Nope.  I would rule that an HKA might crush the shoulder socket if combined 
with the crush manuever(sp) 
 
>--- 
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
 
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Concept Goofs (Re: Cheaters and Balance) 
To: exucurt@exu.ericsson.se (Curt Hicks) 
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:55:30 -0800 (PST) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>> 	Ok, in my reply I'm stepping a little away from math goofs and over 
>> to concept goofs. 
>> 	I do have goofs though. Not so much in the math, as in the 
>> design. Having a group full of people, most of whom are long time 
>> hero-fans. All of whom learned under their own ways... I get ways of building 
>> powers that vary widely. Or players who forget important things like any form 
>> of physical defense. :) I tend to let such 'goofs' do a redesign if the sheet 
>> ends up with a major loophole which by concept shold not be there. Or even if 
>> the sheet shows to be too strong in an area that the concept calls for 
>> weakness. 
>  
> Concept goofs ?  As in characters that aren't sufficiently 'balanced' in 
> game terms ? 
 
	That, and characters who take unusual steps to do something simple, or 
who mechanicly don't match the concept, etc. 
 
>> 	I'm a pretty major concept goof myself. I come up with what I think 
>> are great concepts. Then often in the translation to hero process they end 
>> up as either having major loopholes, or making most powergamers look wimpy. :) 
>  
> Are these just character concepts that don't fit well within the Hero system  
> or what ?  
 
 	That's a common cause of it. 
 
>> 	Though I've got one that's up to about 20 rewrites since '86 and still 
>> coming out wrong. :) 
>  
> Is that the speedster character on your web site ?   
 
	No. 
	That '86 character has a much despised by me version on my website, but 
it is not the speedster. The speedster's under revision 3 or so right now, and 
just about matches and does what she should. 
  
> I guess my idea of concept goofs would be: 
>  
> 1) characters that can't be modelled appropriately using the hero system 
> 2) concepts that aren't right for the intended game 
 
	Yeah, that about hits it. 
 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 16:06:56 -0500 
To: hero-l@sysabend.org 
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> 
Subject: Re: Martial Trip? 
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At 02:27 PM 4/1/98 -0500, Eric Burns wrote: 
>I was looking through the martial arts maneuvers (sp?) and 
>found something obviously missing.  From my limited martial 
>arts knowledge (watching Jackie Chan movies and playing 
>Tekken 3) it seems to me that martial artists trip the people 
>they're fighting all the time.  Is anyone aware of a "martial 
>trip" maneuver (sp?) in any of the suppliments?  Failing that, 
>has anyone written up an optional rule for their campaign 
>they'd be willing to share? 
> 
 
If you talk to somebody who knows martial arts, they will tell 
you that they are not "tripping" their opponent, but using their 
opponent's own force against him to make him trip himself.  In 
any case, what's wrong with just calling it a "martial throw"? 
======================  ================================================= 
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed  
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is  
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead 
======================  ================================================= 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 13:14:05 -0800 
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org, why@superlink.net 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
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-> From why@superlink.net Wed Apr  1 12:50:09 1998 
->  
-> This is what I don't get.  The game mechanic called Entangle is used to 
-> prevent someone from moving (entanglement).  Force Wall is used to prevent 
-> someone from getting from point A to point B (a wall). 
 
Actually, the very first line of the Entangle description is "A character with  
this Standard Power can restran an opponent or create a barrier."  Note the 
last bit. It sounds like the use of the power to create stuff was the original 
intention. 
 
- 
-> Entangle has one sentense which does not work with the rest of its own 
-> description.  Can you put backlash on an entangle-made wall?  Does this 
-> mean that someone punching the wall takes damage back from the wall?   
 
Sure. Doctor Elastic traps our heroes in the "Superdome". It is a 10d6 Entangle, 
AOE radius (+1), Backlash (+1/2), Only exists around the edge of the area (-1/4),  
1ch (-2). The team brick takes a swing at the wall and is bounced back. Seems 
pretty 4-color to me. 
 
-> How 
-> about Entangle does not take damage?  This creates a wall which you can 
-> shoot through unless you target the wall specifically?   
 
What's the problem? A typical prison-cell type wall made of bars would be 
excellent special effects for an entangle,  takes no damage, used 
to create a wall. Just because you can't think of a special effect doesn't 
mean other people can't. 
 
-> This does not make 
-> sense.  I'm sorry I did not notice all of the holes in this rule sooner. 
-> I would have even more reasons to hate Entangle. 
 
I can't address your emotional turmoil, but I think I can show it is unfounded. 
 
->  
-> Here's my normal problem with Entangle: 
->  
-> Compare these two powers: 
-> A) 3D6 Entangle (SFX: A semi-transparent hand grabs hold of the target) 
->  
-> B) 30 points TK, grabs only (SFX: A semi-transparent hand grabs hold of 
->       things) 
->  
-> Active cost for A: 30, for B: 45 (real: 36) 
-> END cost for A: 3 (once), for B: 4 (each phase) 
->  
-> Power A can effect one target each phase and hold any number of targets 
-> who have not escaped. 
-> Power B can only effect one target at a time. 
 
Power A can be easily escaped by someone with a 20 Str (or other means on delivering 
4d6. Power B is quite a challenge to someone with only 20 Str. Also, the entangle can 
be removed with energy blasts and other attacks, but only strength will get you out 
of the TK. In addition to that, you can do many things with a TK (like move things around) 
that you can't do with an entangle. It is entirely reasonable that the TK is more 
expensive. 
  
-> D) 6D6 Entangle, Only one BODY (-1 1/2?) 
-> Active cost for D: 60 (real: 24, I forget the limitation value on that 
-> but it is going to be less than Power C's 90.) 
 
The 1 Body limitation is only a -1/2, so the real cost is 40. Pretty expensive 
for a power that is pretty useless against anyone with a 7 or 8d6 attack. 
 
->  
-> My point is that Entangle is undercosted.  Entangles take normals out of 
-> combat faster than RKAs.  (A 2D6 Entangle will hold a normal for about 5 
-> phases, or 3 turns.  A 20 Active point RKA will do 4 BODY.)  In a 250 
-> point, 60 AP Limit game, a 6D6 Entangle stops everybody except the pure 
-> brick (and the non-focus based energy projector).  Any other character 
-> will lose a couple phases trying to get out, many more phases if their 
-> strength is less than 35. 
->  
 
I think "underpriced" is the word you are looking for. I've been playing Champions 
with a bunch of power-gaming min-maxers for well over a decade, and entangles 
have never been all that popular. I really don't think they're such a terrible 
threat. What's the matter, did you have a bad experience with 'Binder' or something? 
 
								-Sam 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:22:11 -0500 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Luck / Unluck 
Cc: Champions Discussion List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by Darien Phoenix Lynx 
>Luck and unluck come into play several times every campaign session 
because almost everyone has it. As such, it's difficult to forget about 
it.< 
 
Do you roll the Luck/Unluck beforehand (maybe right before the combat) to 
guide you during the combat?  Or do you wait until the character tries some 
unusual maneuver before you make the roll?  Does Luck/Unluck effect such 
"mundane" things as firing your energy blast or punching someone, or do you 
save it for more unique situations? 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 13:36:08 -0800 (PST) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net 
Subject: Re: Supplement request 
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Cc: Hero System Listserv <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
---David Stallard  wrote: 
> 
> Some people might think this is goofy, but I'd really like to see 
more of 
> those cardboard character "miniatures" that came with the 4E GM's 
screen.  
> Not only are there not enough of them, but they look pretty dated 
(no more 
> bellbottom pants, please!).  I don't know if there's any need for a 
5E GM's 
> screen that could include these, but my group finds them very useful 
seeing 
> that "real" superhero miniatures are virtually impossible to find (I 
know 
> Hero made some a long time ago, but they're all gone as far as I 
know). 
 
Well, you can always do what a friend of mine down in Alabama did.  
Making use of a scanner, a colour printer, a simple image editor, and 
a big stack of comic books; he made his own cardbord heroes - hundreds 
of them. 
 
 
== 
 
     John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
============================================ 
Got a question about the list?  Just ask.  Or, you can go 
look over at www.sysabend.org/champions.  I've been 
slowly posting information about the list there. 
 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:40:32 -0500 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: No Invasions? 
Cc: "[unknown]" <CHAMP-L@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by BILL SVITAVSKY 
>The Federation withdrew within hours of the fortress's destruction,  
and Earth was free. The invasion had been one of the biggest  
adventures in my campaign, lasting quite a few sessions, killing  
(pretty much anyway) one of the PC's, marking the Wraith forever  
a villain, and leaving the rest of the group changed by the  
experience.< 
 
Wow, impressive.  Did you essentially sketch out the whole invasion on 
paper beforehand, or did the story evolve as you went along?  I've never 
been one to jot down lots of notes before a game, which may be one reason 
why I don't have many moments like when Mr. Earth saved the planet.  I've 
been a player during moments like that, but I consider it one of my 
weaknesses as a GM that I haven't provided those types of moments. 
 
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:48:18 -0500 (EST) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> -> From why@superlink.net Wed Apr  1 12:50:09 1998  
> ->   
> -> This is what I don't get.  The game mechanic called Entangle is used to  
> -> prevent someone from moving (entanglement).  Force Wall is used to prevent  
> -> someone from getting from point A to point B (a wall).  
>   
> Actually, the very first line of the Entangle description is "A character with   
> this Standard Power can restran an opponent or create a barrier."  Note the  
> last bit. It sounds like the use of the power to create stuff was the original  
> intention.  
 
Fine, it's in the book (I said this last go around).  I don't have to like 
it.  What happens if your entangle is a big ball of ice and you create 10 
hexes above you opponent?  How much damage does he take?  (Yeah, yeah, I 
know, we don't even know what damage a safe does.) 
 
It would be nice if more than 2 sentenses were written about this other 
ability. 
 
> -> Compare these two powers:  
> -> A) 3D6 Entangle (SFX: A semi-transparent hand grabs hold of the target)  
> ->   
> -> B) 30 points TK, grabs only (SFX: A semi-transparent hand grabs hold of  
> ->       things)  
> ->   
> -> Active cost for A: 30, for B: 45 (real: 36)  
> -> END cost for A: 3 (once), for B: 4 (each phase)  
> ->   
> -> Power A can effect one target each phase and hold any number of targets  
> -> who have not escaped.  
> -> Power B can only effect one target at a time.  
>   
> Power A can be easily escaped by someone with a 20 Str (or other means on delivering  
> 4d6. Power B is quite a challenge to someone with only 20 Str. Also, the entangle can  
> be removed with energy blasts and other attacks, but only strength will get you out  
> of the TK. In addition to that, you can do many things with a TK (like move things around)  
> that you can't do with an entangle. It is entirely reasonable that the TK is more  
> expensive.  
>    
> -> D) 6D6 Entangle, Only one BODY (-1 1/2?)  
> -> Active cost for D: 60 (real: 24, I forget the limitation value on that  
> -> but it is going to be less than Power C's 90.)  
>   
> The 1 Body limitation is only a -1/2, so the real cost is 40. Pretty expensive  
> for a power that is pretty useless against anyone with a 7 or 8d6 attack.  
 
40 is still less than 90.  You still need to find another (like) -2 
limitations to get the TK down to the cost of the Entangle. 
 
> -> My point is that Entangle is undercosted.  Entangles take normals out of  
> -> combat faster than RKAs.  (A 2D6 Entangle will hold a normal for about 5  
> -> phases, or 3 turns.  A 20 Active point RKA will do 4 BODY.)  In a 250  
> -> point, 60 AP Limit game, a 6D6 Entangle stops everybody except the pure  
> -> brick (and the non-focus based energy projector).  Any other character  
> -> will lose a couple phases trying to get out, many more phases if their  
> -> strength is less than 35.  
> ->   
>   
> I think "underpriced" is the word you are looking for. I've been playing Champions  
> with a bunch of power-gaming min-maxers for well over a decade, and entangles  
> have never been all that popular. I really don't think they're such a terrible  
> threat. What's the matter, did you have a bad experience with 'Binder' or something?  
 
That's because power-gaming min-maxers usually aren't subtle.  They want 
to be the guy who took out the bad guys: 
 
250 pt game, 60 AP limit.  One character had this power: 
3D6 Entangle, Explosion, fade 1 DC/3".  That effects a large area. 
 
Every combat was: 
phase 12: Normal stuff, entangler hold action until phase 1. 
phase 1: Entangle goes off trapping half of the villians.  The average 
villian cannot casually escape the entangle, so most of them lose at least 
a half phase, when their phase comes. 
phase 2-3: Rest of team pounds on helpless foes.  Entangler holds action. 
Repeat. 
 
Yeah, I know, all the villians attack the entangler, but that just makes 
it easier for the untouched heroes to take them out when the entangler 
goes down. 
 
This character sacrifices himself (he's usually unconscious by the end of 
the first turn) so that the team will win.  Eventually, every combat the 
villians have to concentrate on him immediately or lose.  He eventually 
bought a damage shield just to surprise the villians. 
 
  Joe 
 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 16:48:55 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us> 
Subject: Re: Supplement request 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:27 PM 4/1/98 -0500, David Stallard wrote: 
> 
>I'm curious...how many people use the cardboard miniatures from the GM's 
>screen?  If you don't use them, then what do you use?  For the PCs and 
>major villains, we choose cardboard miniatures that are somewhat close to 
>the character concept and/or look, but I use dice as counters for agents 
>and whatnot, using the number on the die to tell me which is Agent #1, #2, 
>and so forth. 
> 
 
I use little cardboard squares, 2 cm x 2 cm, with sketches, numbers, or 
icons drawn on them (and an arrow for facing). I got into the habit before 
I even discovered Champions - it was a good recommendation in the Villains 
& Vigilantes rulebook.  
 
The individuality of superheroes makes miniatures awkward (especially since 
I've never seen a set of sufficiently generic superhero miniatures), and 
for any genre it's nice to have a token that's specifically representative 
of your character. I can get fairly fancy with these counters, putting 
effort into the drawings, using a glow-in-the-dark tile (from a cereal box) 
for a radioactive supervillain, etc. For my current pirate campaign, I've 
scanned in many images from pirate comics to use on the counters. 
 
Over the years, I've built up quite a collection of these counters, 
partially because I hang on to players counters unless they want them 
themselves after the game is over. Often I can find the perfect token on 
the spur of the moment for a character who shows up by surprise.  
 
I always have two sequenced counter sets ready for agents (one labelled 
numerically, the other alphabetically). I keep some blank counters handy, 
and have the players make their own. I also try to make characters for the 
major NPC's - sometimes it seems like part of the character creation 
process. 
 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 14:20:10 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The Compleat Super City 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 08:52 PM 4/1/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
>Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
>Subject: Re: The Compleat Super City 
> 
>> > I'd really tend to agree.  Though The Ultimate Super City, The 
>> >Ultimate Fantasy City, and The Ultimate Space Station might work well as a 
>> >GRG release. 
>> 
>>    I think so, though even so I'd probably suggest that Mark wait until the 
>> San Angelo line is well established before stepping into those waters. 
>> (And as noted elsewhere, and reflected by my change in the Subject header, 
>> I think "Compleat" is arguably a better term.) 
> 
> Why?  I'm not arguing, just don't see anything arguable better or 
>worse. 
 
   Well, the Ultimate series, at least as I've seen it described, is 
supposed to be for specific character archetypes, and a city isn't a 
character.  (I'm stretching the matter a little just in doing The Ultimate 
Super Vehicle, and falling within the boundary by focusing as much as I do 
on vehicle operators rather than just on the vehicles themselves.) 
   So if we don't use the word "Ultimate," we should identify the set with 
a different word.  "Compleat" just happens to be what came to mind.  If 
someone else has another idea, I'd sure like to hear it (because that 
sounds a little out of place for super and sci-fi books, plus it's too much 
like what's being sold to go with That Other Game). 
 
>>    Quite so, and that judged on an individual basis (with the 
>> campaign-specific material probably reworked to the San Angelo Universe). 
> 
> That'd go without saying, I'd imagine. 
 
   Probably, but not always.  :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 14:20:24 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 07:36 PM 4/1/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
>Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
> 
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>>   Point one:  Of course the rulebook doesn't currently say anything about 
>creating simple objects such as chairs with Entangle.  If it had, I 
>wouldn't have had reason to bring it up now. 
>   Point two:  Your assumption is incorrect, at least by my understanding. 
>If an Entangle is used to make a wall, then it makes a wall, not an 
>entanglement.  (Like Spider-Man's webbing being used to create a net.)< 
> 
>I see your point about how Entangle can be used to make objects, but I 
>think "Entangle" is a poor name for a power that creates chairs.  I think 
>it would be best to split Entangle and this "create object" power into two 
>distinct powers.  Basically, Entangle should not be the only power which 
>allows you to create something with BODY and DEF. 
 
   Now, *that's* a valid point; with this ability, the name can be 
confusing.  Adding a new Power (for the sake of argument, call it Create) 
that has roughly the same mechanics but functions just differently enough 
to be considered a separate Power wouldn't be too far-fetched. 
   I just hope that this wouldn't put it beyond the realm of where the Hero 
Guys want to go for Hero5. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Supplement request 
To: DBStallard@compuserve.com (David Stallard) 
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:22:56 -0800 (PST) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> Some people might think this is goofy, but I'd really like to see more of 
> those cardboard character "miniatures" that came with the 4E GM's screen.  
> 
	This is likely the number one requested item by gamers that does not 
get met by the game companies. 
	Since the Steve Jackson Carboard Figures went out of print many years 
back there have been repeated calls for these to be brought back. At one 
point or another, it goes through every single gaming related mailing list, 
magazine, or fanzine. Just about. 
 
	Frankly, I'm amazed nobody puts them out. I used to have a whole 
crate full of these things for all of super, fantasy, modern, and sci fi 
gaming. Lost em in a move unfortunately. 
	I know gamers who'd sell their mothers for these things. 
  
> I'm curious...how many people use the cardboard miniatures from the GM's 
 
	Yep, till I lost em. Now I use the few sci fi and modern day ones that 
had been misplaced before I lost the others. If I had a good enough art 
program and printer; I'd scan in new ones from my comic book collection and use 
those. 
 
Rook ?U ?k 1b  'no giga pets were harmed in the production of this message'. 
 __ 
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html	Super Hero Links 
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/			Super Hero Roleplay 
 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 14:28:46 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Supplement request 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 08:54 PM 4/1/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
>Subject: Supplement request 
>Cc: Hero System Listserv <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
> 
>Some people might think this is goofy, but I'd really like to see more of 
>those cardboard character "miniatures" that came with the 4E GM's screen.  
>Not only are there not enough of them, but they look pretty dated (no more 
>bellbottom pants, please!).  I don't know if there's any need for a 5E GM's 
>screen that could include these, but my group finds them very useful seeing 
>that "real" superhero miniatures are virtually impossible to find (I know 
>Hero made some a long time ago, but they're all gone as far as I know). 
 
   I don't think it's goofy at all.  In fact, this isn't the first time 
this has come up on the list.  I, too, would buy as many of these as any 
company was willing to put out.  And while some people would be fussy about 
quality, I'd probably be less so, buying anything I could afford that came 
my way.  (I'm pretty easy to get along with; the only Hero4 product I've 
had a problem with has been Alien Enemies, and that because of its lack of 
organization than any flaw in the actual content.) 
   And I happen to think that superheroes in bellbottoms are kinda cool, 
but then again I'm kinda strange and happened to adore Phantom Girl's 
costume in the 70s. 
 
>What I'd really like to see is something along the lines of what Car Wars 
>did at some point (maybe they still do, I dunno).  They supplied lots of 
>color counters, but then they also supplied some "blank" counters with just 
>the outline of cars, and you could color them however you wanted.  In 
>Champions, this would essentially be miniature versions of the silhouettes 
>that are on the character sheets, except that you could fold them into that 
>triangular shape so that they would stand up.  Players could photocopy 
>these, which wouldn't be as high quality as cardboard (maybe they could be 
>weighted with a penny or something) but would provide an endless supply.  I 
>can't imagine that such a "supplement" would be expensive to produce, but 
>maybe I'm underestimating the cost of a few good artists.  I would request 
>that the silhouettes NOT have the gridwork or excessive shading that is on 
>the Fuzion silhouettes, though. 
 
   Nah, I've tried the photocopied counter route, and they're usually good 
for about half a session no matter how you try to support them (though a 
laminator might make them good enough; I haven't tried that yet).  I've 
done handmade counters, though, using posterboard picked up from the art 
supplies section of the local department store, and those worked out okay 
(even if the art was kinda lame). 
 
>I'm curious...how many people use the cardboard miniatures from the GM's 
>screen?  If you don't use them, then what do you use?  For the PCs and 
>major villains, we choose cardboard miniatures that are somewhat close to 
>the character concept and/or look, but I use dice as counters for agents 
>and whatnot, using the number on the die to tell me which is Agent #1, #2, 
>and so forth. 
 
   I've gone that route, but put little numbers in the upper right corner 
to tell one agent from another. 
   In days past, my group's just had a large sheet of 25mm hex paper under 
a sheet of transparent dry-erase plastic.  The GM would then draw the map 
on the plastic, and we'd put our characters' initials at whatever location 
we were at.  It may seem cheesy to some today, but it was a winner for the 
6 years (or thereabouts) that I was with that crew. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 14:42:06 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:40 PM 4/1/1998 -0500, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>  wrote:  
>[snip] 
>>    Point two:  Your assumption is incorrect, at least by my understanding.  
>> If an Entangle is used to make a wall, then it makes a wall, not an  
>> entanglement.  (Like Spider-Man's webbing being used to create a net.)  
>[snip] 
>>    Actually Entangle does create more.  The water and playing cards are  
>> merely SFX for the Powers in question; the Entanglement, in a way, 
actually  
>> is the Power.  
> 
>This is what I don't get.  The game mechanic called Entangle is used to 
>prevent someone from moving (entanglement).  Force Wall is used to prevent 
>someone from getting from point A to point B (a wall). 
> 
>Entangle has one sentense which does not work with the rest of its own 
>description.  Can you put backlash on an entangle-made wall?  Does this 
>mean that someone punching the wall takes damage back from the wall?  How 
>about Entangle does not take damage?  This creates a wall which you can 
>shoot through unless you target the wall specifically?  This does not make 
>sense.  I'm sorry I did not notice all of the holes in this rule sooner. 
>I would have even more reasons to hate Entangle. 
 
   I don't think these options should necessarily be available for an 
Entangle that is defined as a barrier (which would be yet another reason to 
make Create a separate Power).  Of course, some could be available, if 
there was a good SFX for backlash or transparency. 
   However, the rule is really rather simple, if not made 100% clear in the 
text of the Fourth Edition rulebook.  As an option, an Entangle can create 
a barrier, which has BODY as well as DEF and stays around after the phase 
in which END is expended (as opposed to a Force Wall, which has only DEF 
and goes away as soon as the character stops paying END).  It doesn't form 
the barrier *in addition* to the entanglement; it does it *instead* of that. 
   Still, looking more closely at the paragraph in question, I find that I 
may have misread it.  Rather than a redefinition, this may be describing an 
alternate use for Entangle, like when Spider-Man uses his webbing to create 
a net that stops a car from chasing him.  Or when a bola, instead of being 
used to tie up someone's legs, is stretched across a hex to trip the target. 
 
>> >"Disadvantage" meaning "it costs too much to use," i.e. make persistent?  
>> >The original poster wanted to create a bridge.  An entangle should hold 
you  
>> >in place, not provide transportation.  If you want to be technical about  
>> >it, you should by a power "create temporary bridges" as Flight, UAO,  
>> >Persistent, Uncontrolled (bridges last 5 minutes), Only to cross an open  
>> >space through the air.  But I'll leave that one for Rat.  :-)  
>>   
>>    In this case, it's not the bridge that provides transportation; it's 
the  
>> characters' feet (or vehicles or whatever).  
>>    Your construct *might* work for a temporary bridge, but how do you  
>> create a permanent (or, at least, long-lasting) one?  It seems rather  
>> awkward to use Transform (the Power currently used to make things from 
thin  
>> air) when a mechanic for doing it already exists that is very close to  
>> what's needed.  All we'd need to do is decide how this aspect would work,  
>> and there you go.  
> 
>Under what circumstances does my power not work? 
 
   When a speedster needs to use the bridge without slowing down. 
 
>My point is that Entangle is undercosted.  Entangles take normals out of 
>combat faster than RKAs.  (A 2D6 Entangle will hold a normal for about 5 
>phases, or 3 turns.  A 20 Active point RKA will do 4 BODY.)  In a 250 
>point, 60 AP Limit game, a 6D6 Entangle stops everybody except the pure 
>brick (and the non-focus based energy projector).  Any other character 
>will lose a couple phases trying to get out, many more phases if their 
>strength is less than 35. 
> 
>With all of that, you want to give this power the ability to create stuff? 
 
   Not with the same Power.  With a redefinition.  Or, as per someone 
else's suggestion, a separate Power with similar mechanics. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <bing@pop.zzz.com> 
From: "Mike Harvey" <bing@iccom.com> 
To: hero-l@omg.org 
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 22:42:49 +0000 
Subject: Hello? 
Reply-to: bing@iccom.com 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 6 
 
Is there any activity on this list? Or am I just not getting any  
messages? 
 
Thanks, 
Mike 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
bing@iccom.com  (formerly mike@cs.pdx.edu)       Mike Harvey 
HTTP://www.iccom.com/usrwww/bing/home.html       Beaverton, Oregon 
 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 14:44:44 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 01:14 PM 4/1/1998 -0800, Sam Bell wrote: 
>-> Entangle has one sentense which does not work with the rest of its own 
>-> description.  Can you put backlash on an entangle-made wall?  Does this 
>-> mean that someone punching the wall takes damage back from the wall?   
> 
>Sure. Doctor Elastic traps our heroes in the "Superdome". It is a 10d6 
Entangle, 
>AOE radius (+1), Backlash (+1/2), Only exists around the edge of the area 
(-1/4),  
>1ch (-2). The team brick takes a swing at the wall and is bounced back. Seems 
>pretty 4-color to me. 
 
   Me too.  However, I would like to put in that the AE: Radius and the 
"Only exists around the edge of the area" Limitation combine into what I 
consider a good argument for including AE: Ring. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 14:51:13 -0800 
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Martial Trip? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 02:27 PM 4/1/1998 -0500, Eric Burns wrote: 
>I was looking through the martial arts maneuvers (sp?) and 
>found something obviously missing.  From my limited martial 
>arts knowledge (watching Jackie Chan movies and playing 
>Tekken 3) it seems to me that martial artists trip the people 
>they're fighting all the time.  Is anyone aware of a "martial 
>trip" maneuver (sp?) in any of the suppliments?  Failing that, 
>has anyone written up an optional rule for their campaign 
>they'd be willing to share? 
 
   From TUMA, page 9: 
 
   Legsweep, 1/2 phase, 3 pts, +2 OCV, -1 DCV, STR+1d6, Target Falls 
 
   (The maneuver is also in Ninja Hero, but I don't know where my copy of 
that one's run off to.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 14:55:05 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: More things for 5Ed to clarify... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:51 AM 4/1/1998 -0800, Lizard wrote: 
>a)If someone in a mind link goes unconscious, are they still in the link? 
 
   I'd say not.  (It's probably self-evident, but then again you're not a 
blithering nincompoop and it wasn't clear to you.) 
 
>b)What happens if you use telepathy on someone who is knocked out? 
 
   Good question.  Automatically bypass all Mental Defense? 
 
>c)If a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound? What if it bought 
>Invisible Power Effects? 
 
   It makes as much of a sound as my forehead did against the monitor. 
 
>d)If you hit a mentalist with a bus, does that break her concentration? 
 
   I'd say that her concentration is the least that it would break.  (Read 
that as a Yes.) 
 
>e)What if you hit her again? 
 
   Ditto. 
--- 
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   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:59:02 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Concept Goofs (Re: Cheaters and Balance) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> 1) characters that can't be modelled appropriately using the hero system 
 
	I don't think they exist, though some concepts will require more 
points and/or liberal application of existing rules. 
 
> 2) concepts that aren't right for the intended game 
 
	Careful.  Concepts may be fine for an overall game/genre. 
However, they may not fit within a certain campaign's game/genre due to 
bakcground, etc. 
 
	But I think he meant, of concept goofs, forgetting something 
important to character concept -- like buying a web-slinger without an 
entangle. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:00:31 -0800 (PST) 
From: Draco Paladin <paladin@uvic.ca> 
To: Hero System Listserv <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Luck / Unluck 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, David Stallard wrote: 
 
> How common are Unluck (disad) and Luck (perk?) in your campaigns?  My 
> players don't take them, and I don't really encourage them, because they 
> seem overly broad and it seems like I'd have a hard time remembering to 
> factor them in--especially since no player is going to remind me that they 
> have Unluck at a critical moment.  If they're used in your game, how often 
> do they affect gameplay? 
 
I had a character for a low level campaign once (post-apocolypse (sp?)) 
who was based on luck and un-luck.  He had 5D6 unluck and 7D6 luck, and 
the strangest things kept happening around him. 
 
--------------------------------------------- 
Mother is the name for GOD on the lips and 
hearts of all children.  - Eric Draven 
 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 15:02:58 -0800 
To: john.desmarais@ibm.net, champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: More things for 5Ed to clarify... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:56 AM 4/1/98 -0800, John Desmarais wrote: 
>---Lizard  wrote: 
 
>> d)If you hit a mentalist with a bus, does that break her 
>concentration? 
> 
>Yes, and probably everything else as well. 
> 
> 
>> e)What if you hit her again? 
> 
>You spread the puddle around more. 
> 
 
Actually, it took two hits just to knock her out...I don't know if she ever 
took body. 
 
That was one of those "Oh...s***!" moments. Our brick pounds the mentalist 
with a bus...and she doesn't fall over. And she's the WEAK one of the 
villains we're facing. 
 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 15:12:20 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Die Rolling Programs 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 01:38 PM 4/1/1998 -0500, Ron Cole wrote: 
>>   You mean the new Hero die-roller that was being talked about?  I've put 
>>the most recent version of Roller on my website (URL for the main page 
>>below). 
> 
>I believe he's referring to the program I wrote, and its companion for 
tracking 
>combat phases.  If not, you can find these on Theala's web page at: 
> 
>http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html 
> 
>They were written in VB 3.0, I have 5.0 now and have contemplated updating 
them. 
>If you try them out and have suggestions, feel free to mail them to me. 
 
   Oh, you mean Hero Dice and Combat Sequencer?  They're on my website as 
well. 
   Let me know if I'm making the right connection here, because I do have a 
few specific comments I'd like to compile. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:16:19 -0500 
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us> 
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: No Invasions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> wrote: 
 
>>>>> 
 
Message text written by BILL SVITAVSKY 
>The Federation withdrew within hours of the fortress's destruction,  
and Earth was free. The invasion had been one of the biggest  
adventures in my campaign, lasting quite a few sessions, killing  
(pretty much anyway) one of the PC's, marking the Wraith forever  
a villain, and leaving the rest of the group changed by the  
experience.< 
 
Wow, impressive.  Did you essentially sketch out the whole invasion on 
paper beforehand, or did the story evolve as you went along?  I've never 
been one to jot down lots of notes before a game, which may be one reason 
why I don't have many moments like when Mr. Earth saved the planet.  I've 
been a player during moments like that, but I consider it one of my 
weaknesses as a GM that I haven't provided those types of moments. 
 
<<<<< 
 
It's been a long time, so I don't think I can describe exactly  
how I planned this, but with this sort of thing I generally have  
a vague idea of what I want to do overall, then have somewhat  
less vague plans for each session; then, the players throw a  
wrench into whatever I planned and it works out completely different. 
 
I had the two alien empires worked out long before this particular  
invasion storyline. They'd been elements in some other stories  
before - obviously including the Wraith's origin. I'd originally  
envisioned the Santar-Morabengi Alliance as the bad guys, and  
the silicon Federation (I forget the full name & species involved)  
as more sympathetic, but as the campaign developed I came to  
like the idea of them as a fairly enlightened democracy that  
just didn't have Earth's interests in mind.  
 
I definitely planned the pro-carbon life faction and their  
conspiracy; I didn't know, however, how the PC's would take  
their offer. I did know the group well enough to know that at  
least some of the PC's would be willing to help in the assassination 
plot, so I could be reasonably sure that that story direction  
would bring the invasion to an end.  
 
One thing I definitely didn't plan was the Wraith's course of action. 
I left the decisions entirely up to the player, who'd done a  
great job role-playing the Wraith's gradual transformation from  
superhero to alien. The player had a lot of fun in this invasion;  
the Wraith had originally been a pretty weak combatant (with  
an incredibly long range T-port), but by this point he had been  
drastically transformed and was armed to his crystaline teeth with  
high tech alien weaponry, putting him into the group villain class.  
If he'd decided to side with Earth, the assassination plot would  
have been unnecessary - he could have struck a major blow against  
the Federation from the inside. 
 
Mr. Earth's self-sacrifice was completely unplanned, but was  
absolutely beautiful. Actually, Mr. Earth started out his superhero  
career as Doppleganger, a shapeshifting hero. Doppleganger's  
abilities came from a suit which actually transported his body  
into another dimension (while maintaining a physical link, and  
hence transferring real damage to him.) His real name was Louis  
Ashe, and he was quite the eccentric - he maintained multiple  
secret ID's, including one as a barmaid.  
 
In one fateful adventure, Dopppleganger's archfoe The Professor  
kidnapped his four year old son. Despite the fact that the Prof  
had a gun to his kid's head, Doppleganger gambled that he could  
energy blast the villain before his kid was hurt. (I issued a  
strong GM warning against this strategy!) Then, when he made his  
attack roll, he rolled an 18. I figured the result was pretty  
much determined - Doppleganger killed his own son with a 12d6  
Energy Blast. 
 
Doppleganger spent the next couple game sessions on the run,  
having been charged with the murder of his DNPC. The player  
brought in another character after that, then switched to still  
another when he got tired of the first replacement. But eventually  
he brought in a very strange character - an amnesiac bum with  
a variety of strange abilities. This was in fact Louis Ashe,  
but he was genuinely amnesiac - he didn't know he'd been Doppleganger,  
though he was using some of the suit's abilities.  
 
"Nick", as he called himself now, followed the PC group around  
for a while. They considered him a sort of mascot for a while, but  
soon started to realize that he was rather powerful. Meanwhile,  
Nick took up a strong interest in ecology - improvised in the  
course of an adventure. Realizing he needed a superheroic identity,  
Nick became Mr. Earth. 
 
Eventually, some of the other PC's realized that Mr. Earth had  
some suspicious similarities to their old comrade Doppleganger.  
Mr. Earth had been regaining his memories as well, and came clean  
when they confronted him. He explained the circumstances of the  
"murder", and did a good job of role-playing his angst over the  
situation, so the PC's agreed to keep Mr. Earth as a member of the  
group as he sought redemption for his past errors. 
 
The self-sacrifice in the invasion gave Louis Ashe his redemption.  
It really was the end of Mr. Earth, and of the Doppleganger suit;  
the Mr. Earth Memorial became a favorite landmark for the rest of  
the campaign. But some time later, the player and I agreed that  
Louis Ashe's body had survived the destruction of the suit,  
though he'd been irradiated and remained trapped in another dimension. 
He managed to achieve a link to Earth once again when the Professor  
created an android using technology similar to that of the Doppleganger  
suit; Louis Ashe's mind possessed the android body, and he became  
the trenchcoated vigilante The Vindicator, whom the player kept  
for the rest of the campaign. Of course, if the Vindicator had been  
destroyed, Ashe's body was still lying radioactive in another  
dimension, just begging for yet another superhero origin... 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:31:50 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
To: Champions Discussion List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Luck / Unluck 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, David Stallard wrote: 
 
> Message text written by Darien Phoenix Lynx 
> >Luck and unluck come into play several times every campaign session 
> because almost everyone has it. As such, it's difficult to forget about 
> it.< 
>  
> Do you roll the Luck/Unluck beforehand (maybe right before the combat) to 
> guide you during the combat?  Or do you wait until the character tries some 
> unusual maneuver before you make the roll?  Does Luck/Unluck effect such 
> "mundane" things as firing your energy blast or punching someone, or do you 
> save it for more unique situations? 
 
Well, I follow the guidelines in the book: If a character with unluck 
starts "winning"--that is being successful, especially at critical 
moments, it's time to roll unluck. If a character with luck starts 
"losing"--or being unsuccessful at a critical point, then it's time to 
roll luck. 
 
For example, the GST (Generic Superhero Team) is losing badly to the GVT. 
EnergyBlastAndALittleLuckMan has just recovered from being dazed and sees 
his teamates littering the ground around him. He knows that if he can hold 
out a few more phases, some of the rest of the team might have a chance to 
get up and carry on the fight, or at least get away. But not while 
EvilBrickMan is still standing. EvilBrickMan moves in to finish off our 
hero... but this would seal away the fight for the unlucky brick. So it's 
time for an unluck roll. What comes up? A 1! So EBM stumbles over a rock, 
losing 1" of movement, and isn't able to get half-move close enough to 
make an attack! Now it's EBAALLM's turn. Pushing his energy blast to its 
limit, he lets it all out on EBM. But he misses! Time for that luck 
roll...  *Two* sixes! He missed, but he hit a girder of a water tower 
behind EBM, which falls over on top of him... ouch! What's this? The 
falling water tower snapped a power line? ZZZZap! Whoa... that's going to 
tie EBM up for at least 2 phases... 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 19:03:15 -0500 
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us> 
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org 
Subject: A Pirate's Wife 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
I'm trying to write up a DNPC for my pirate campaign, and  
I thought people on the list might help generate some ideas  
for me. 
 
The problem is that I got talked into allowing one of the PC's  
to take his wife as a DNPC. The PC in question is Walter Prescott,  
an English gentleman who was the navigator of the merchant ship  
_Gallant_ until he was forcibly recruited into the pirate crew  
of the _Laughing Fiend_. Prescott has led an adventuresome life.  
He studied in France, and married a French aristocrat there.  
Her father hates Prescott (and in fact is hunting him), since  
Marie has married below her station to an Englishman (mon Dieu!) 
 
Lady Marie Prescott lives in Jamaica near or in the city of Port  
Royal. Thus far she has not directly appeared in the campaign,  
and has been fairly vaguely defined, but I'd like to bring her  
into the game next session. The thing is, I'd like to make her  
an interesting enough character to generate lots of good stories.  
I don't want her just to be a wife who gets kidnapped. Not only  
is that uninteresting, it's inappropriate for the campaign;  
the pirate PC's are the ones who should be doing the kidnapping  
in this game. 
 
The difficulty is that the social roles available to a woman  
in the 17th Century are pretty limited. I'd like to keep things  
historically plausible (though not necessarily *likely*), but  
a seamstress just isn't going to provide a lot of opportunities  
for adventure plots.  
 
I considered having her run a brothel, but considering her  
high class background it seems awkward as well as unlikely; a  
Madame who worked her way up from the bottom (so to speak) might  
make a sympathetic character, but a married aristocrat with a  
stable of girls would be tough to make appealing. I don't mind  
making Marie a little shady, though - the whole tone of the game  
is somewhat roguish. 
 
So, anybody out there have any good ideas? 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 19:04:14 -0500 (EST) 
From: Ron Cole <rcole@shell.ezy.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Die Rolling Programs 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>    Oh, you mean Hero Dice and Combat Sequencer?  They're on my website as 
> well. 
>    Let me know if I'm making the right connection here, because I do have a 
> few specific comments I'd like to compile. 
 
Yup, those are mine.  And there haven't been new versions in a while, so 
they're probably up to date. 
 
Ron 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: More things for 5Ed to clarify... 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 01 Apr 1998 19:06:13 -0500 
Lines: 44 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
>> a)If someone in a mind link goes unconscious, are they still in the link? 
BG>    I'd say not.  (It's probably self-evident, but then again you're not 
BG> a blithering nincompoop and it wasn't clear to you.) 
 
Ditto.  Mind Link requires a willing "target".  An unconscious person 
cannot willing consent to a Mind Link. 
 
>> b)What happens if you use telepathy on someone who is knocked out? 
BG>    Good question.  Automatically bypass all Mental Defense? 
 
You would still have to make the standard ECV vs. ECV roll, I think.  Any 
skill levels that might normally apply cannot be used (they require 
specific allocation).  Whether or not a particular character's Mental 
Defense depends on the SFX. 
 
[...] 
 
>> d)If you hit a mentalist with a bus, does that break her concentration? 
BG>    I'd say that her concentration is the least that it would break. 
BG> (Read that as a Yes.) 
 
I disagree.  Simply hitting someone will not cause them to falter.  You 
have to do enough Stun damage to stun her in order to make her stop 
maintaining constant powers.  The Concentration limitation may also have 
something to say on that. 
 
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Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:08:22 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: A Pirate's Wife 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>The difficulty is that the social roles available to a woman  
>in the 17th Century are pretty limited. I'd like to keep things  
>historically plausible (though not necessarily *likely*), but  
>a seamstress just isn't going to provide a lot of opportunities  
>for adventure plots.  
 
She could run a hospital or some other charity cause; IIRC even in the 16th 
century women were involved in authority positions of that sort. Or a tea 
room for the 'gentle set' in the colony. 
 
Anyway, I think the hospital position would offer plenty of opportunities 
for strangeness - dying pirate hands off a map to her ("Arr! Treasure!"), 
ruffians come looking for someone in the hospital and take her hostage, 
she's off drumming up charitable support at a local plantation - which gets 
attacked by the enemies of the plantation owner (or pirates, or slavers), etc. 
 
Note she wouldn't be a doctor, though she might be a nurse. I was thinking 
more along the lines of being involved in the administration. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 17:42:57 -0800 
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: No Invasions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 06:16 PM 4/1/1998 -0500, BILL SVITAVSKY wrote: 
>Mr. Earth's self-sacrifice was completely unplanned, but was  
>absolutely beautiful.... 
   [Most of the rest of Mr. Earth's truly incredible story snipped] 
>He managed to achieve a link to Earth once again when the Professor  
>created an android using technology similar to that of the Doppleganger  
>suit; Louis Ashe's mind possessed the android body, and he became  
>the trenchcoated vigilante The Vindicator, whom the player kept  
>for the rest of the campaign. Of course, if the Vindicator had been  
>destroyed, Ashe's body was still lying radioactive in another  
>dimension, just begging for yet another superhero origin... 
 
   This character followed one of the Prime Rules of Superheroes: nobody 
who dies is ever actually, fully, truly dead.  There are a few exceptions 
(like Captain Mar-Vell, Bucky, and a couple of DC characters -- though even 
the latter aren't guaranteed, what with all the reboots and retcons). 
   I love it! 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:26:19 -0500 (EST) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Hero System Listserv <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Supplement request 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Wed, 1 Apr 1998, David Stallard wrote: 
 
> Some people might think this is goofy, but I'd really like to see more of 
> those cardboard character "miniatures" that came with the 4E GM's screen.  
> Not only are there not enough of them, but they look pretty dated (no more 
> bellbottom pants, please!).  I don't know if there's any need for a 5E GM's 
> screen that could include these, but my group finds them very useful seeing 
> that "real" superhero miniatures are virtually impossible to find (I know 
> Hero made some a long time ago, but they're all gone as far as I know). 
 
I have a whole *mess* of cardboard miniatures.  Counters from SJ Games, 
V&V games, Shadowrun and White Wolf.  Superheroes, SF, fantasy, monsters,  
cyberpunk, martial artsits, animals, stuff.  I even hand drew a large 
number of cars and photo enlarged a number of Car Wars counters to get 
vehicles, debris and 'stuff'.  I use them all the time and would be more 
than happy to get more. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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From: "Darien Lynx" <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
To: "David Stallard" <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Cc: "Hero System Listserv" <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Supplement request 
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:53:35 -0600 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
We use Lego Men. It's amazing how versatile those things are! Plus an 
excellent use for the toys of my youth. And you even get to see what they're 
holding! 
 
You can rig up all kinds of things with Lego Men. Like if you take a 2x4 
notch "flat" Lego piece: 
 
oooO 
oooo 
 
Where the "O" is where you put a "pillar" that a Lego Man can grab onto, 
we're even able to simulate flight, and how high someone is flying. If 
someone is entangled, you can take off their legs. That sort of thing. I was 
going to use the Legos only temporarily pending purchase of real minatures, 
but they were so much fun that the group fell in love with them and began to 
contribute their own Legos. You'd be surprised what kinds of things you get 
in a Lego Person set. Little pistols, space-age ray guns, whips, swords, 
shields, drinking glasses, radios, and just about everything you need. My 
players have taken great pride in finding the right combination of legs, 
torso, arms, head, and accessories to make the perfect fit for their 
character. It's really a lot of fun. 
 
-----Original Message----- 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Cc: Hero System Listserv <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Wednesday, April 01, 1998 3:16 PM 
Subject: Supplement request 
 
 
>Some people might think this is goofy, but I'd really like to see more of 
>those cardboard character "miniatures" that came with the 4E GM's screen. 
>Not only are there not enough of them, but they look pretty dated (no more 
>bellbottom pants, please!).  I don't know if there's any need for a 5E GM's 
>screen that could include these, but my group finds them very useful seeing 
>that "real" superhero miniatures are virtually impossible to find (I know 
>Hero made some a long time ago, but they're all gone as far as I know). 
> 
>What I'd really like to see is something along the lines of what Car Wars 
>did at some point (maybe they still do, I dunno).  They supplied lots of 
>color counters, but then they also supplied some "blank" counters with just 
>the outline of cars, and you could color them however you wanted.  In 
>Champions, this would essentially be miniature versions of the silhouettes 
>that are on the character sheets, except that you could fold them into that 
>triangular shape so that they would stand up.  Players could photocopy 
>these, which wouldn't be as high quality as cardboard (maybe they could be 
>weighted with a penny or something) but would provide an endless supply.  I 
>can't imagine that such a "supplement" would be expensive to produce, but 
>maybe I'm underestimating the cost of a few good artists.  I would request 
>that the silhouettes NOT have the gridwork or excessive shading that is on 
>the Fuzion silhouettes, though. 
> 
>I'm curious...how many people use the cardboard miniatures from the GM's 
>screen?  If you don't use them, then what do you use?  For the PCs and 
>major villains, we choose cardboard miniatures that are somewhat close to 
>the character concept and/or look, but I use dice as counters for agents 
>and whatnot, using the number on the die to tell me which is Agent #1, #2, 
>and so forth. 
> 
 
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Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 19:04:11 -0800 (PST) 
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> 
Subject: Storyteller Conversion help 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Has anyone on the list attempted to come up with a system for conversion 
from White Wolf's Streetfighter game into Hero 4th edition? I've worked some 
basic ideas but have run into a few kinks. What I have: 
 
Strength: Strength              x4 
Dexterity: Dexterity            x4 
Constitution:Stamina            x4 
Body:health levels 
Intelligence:Intelligence       x4 
Ego: Will power                 x2 
Presence:Higher of Char/Man     x4 
Comeliness:Apprerance           x4 
Physical Defense:Stamina        x2 
Energy Defense:Stamina          x2 (or x1 for "realism")  
Speed:Dexterity 
Recovery: As calculated  
Endurance:health+stamina        x4 
Stun:Health levels              x3 
 
Skills:A problem area.  
 
Techniques:In the Streetfighter game a character combat skills are broken up 
in to seperate Techinques (Punch, kick, grab, athletitics,focus) rated like 
skills that affect damage. The simplest way would be to make this Skill 
levels in the same areas but that doesn't seem to get the point across.  
 
Special Manuvers: I have no idea where to start with these.....  
 
 
I know violence doesn't solve all problems... 
	But it sure feels good! 
		Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior 
 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Independent Focus 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-8,10-13,20-22 
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts) 
Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 23:02:07 EST 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>> ... The guy running a Green Lantern clone decided he 
>>didn't have enough points, so he bought all his powers Independent OAF 
-- 
>>power ring, and said in his character origin that the ring was fused to 
>>his finger and could not be removed.  The GM didn't see anything wrong 
>>with giving the -3 limitation on all this character's powers.  My 
>>munchkin allergy really kicked up at this point .... 
> 
>   That would send bells off in my head as well.  A Focus that can't be 
>removed or taken away?  The very definition of a Focus is that it's 
*not* a 
>part of (or fused to) the character's body.  And I'm not sure how 
>Independent would be justified in this case either. 
 
I know the GM in question tended toward munchkinism when he played, this 
might have been "repayment" for one of _his_ characters, or it might be a 
bad case of confusing Focus with OIHID.  I can't be sure, because I 
dropped that game fast (and don't read enough GL to tell which disad 
would be most appropriate).  I think the player argued that a power that 
could be passed on (didn't the first GL get the ring as a gift from a 
dying alien?) should be Independent, but don't quote me on that. 
 
Leah 
 
_____________________________________________________________________ 
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 22:31:13 -0600 
From: A Kirkland <ajk117@mail.usask.ca> 
Subject: Re: Independent Focus 
X-Sender: ajk117@mail.usask.ca 
To: Ron Abitz <ronald@centraltx.net> 
Cc: Hero List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 1 
 
At 22:00 98/03/31 -0600, Ron Abitz wrote: 
> 
> 
>---------- 
>> From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
>> To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
>> Subject: Re: Independent Focus 
>> Date: Wednesday, April 01, 1998 11:11 AM 
>>  
>> At 11:33 PM 3/31/1998 EST, Leah L Watts wrote: 
>> >>> Do most GMs out there outlaw or limit Independent Focus?  I allow it, 
>> >IF 
>> >>> only a minor part of your character's power comes from that focus.  
>If 
>> >>> taking the focus would severely cripple you, I don't allow it. 
>> >> 
>> >>I allow it, but I find that very few players will actually use (for 
>> >>anything except rinky-dink powers)  it as they eventually learn it's a 
>> >>pretty safe bet that focus will get taken away at least once.  Fear is 
>> >>a useful thing for controlling PCs. 
>> > 
>> >I wish I'd had you as a GM the last time I played in a group that 
>allowed 
>> >Independent Focus.  The guy running a Green Lantern clone decided he 
>> >didn't have enough points, so he bought all his powers Independent OAF 
>-- 
>> >power ring, and said in his character origin that the ring was fused to 
>> >his finger and could not be removed.  The GM didn't see anything wrong 
>> >with giving the -3 limitation on all this character's powers.  My 
>> >munchkin allergy really kicked up at this point .... 
>>  
>>    That would send bells off in my head as well.  A Focus that can't be 
>> removed or taken away?  The very definition of a Focus is that it's *not* 
>a 
>> part of (or fused to) the character's body.  And I'm not sure how 
>> Independent would be justified in this case either. 
> 
>What about things like Flight taken with OAF Wings like Dragonfly in the 
>BBB. Purchased this way I take it to mean if there is not enough romm to 
>spread your win that you can not fly and entanges can cause you to fall 
>etc. But with out surgery (or some violent act) the wing can not be remove. 
>Is this in the spirit of the limitation? 
> 
> 
>            Ron Abitz 
> 
 
 
	Remember Dragonfly is a 1st edition character. His sheet was 
"grandfathered" from that version. 
Winged flight should be unavailable if the character were entangled. Back 
then, this it hou that ws done. 
	Currently, the best way to build permanent winged flight is with the -1/2 
Restrainable Limitaition. 
 
A Kirkland 
ajk117@mail.usask.ca 
 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 20:53:20 -0800 
To: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net&> champ-l@omg.org 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re: Storyteller Conversion help 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
Hash: SHA1 
 
At 07:04 PM 4/1/98 -0800, Kim Foster wrote: 
>Has anyone on the list attempted to come up with a system for  
conversion 
>from White Wolf's Streetfighter game into Hero 4th edition? I've  
worked some 
>basic ideas but have run into a few kinks. What I have: 
> 
>Strength: Strength              x4 
>Dexterity: Dexterity            x4 
>Constitution:Stamina            x4 
>Body:health levels 
>Intelligence:Intelligence       x4 
>Ego: Will power                 x2 
>Presence:Higher of Char/Man     x4 
>Comeliness:Apprerance           x4 
>Physical Defense:Stamina        x2 
>Energy Defense:Stamina          x2 (or x1 for "realism")  
>Speed:Dexterity 
 
Most of these will be too low. 2 dots is 'average' in Storyteller.  
I'd use a scale as follows: 
1 dot=8 or less 
2 dots=9-12 
3 dots=13-18 
4 dots=19,20 
5 dots=21 for all but STR, 25 for STR. Each additional dot of STR is  
+10, each additional dot in any other stat is +3. 
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From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 00:33:55 EST 
To: hero-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: A Pirate's Wife 
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In a message dated 98-04-01 19:22:23 EST, NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us wrote: 
 
> I'm trying to write up a DNPC for my pirate campaign, and  
>  I thought people on the list might help generate some ideas  
>  for me. 
 
[snip description of Marie Prescott's background] 
  
>  So, anybody out there have any good ideas? 
 
If you don't mind using a cliche, have Marie disguise herself as a man (or 
simply dress as a man) and join the pirate crew in order to be close to her 
husband. (It's a cliche - but it's a cliche because it gets used so often, and 
it gets used so often because it's both dramatic and has historical 
precedent.) 
 
A less cliched possibility would be for her to be a ship chandler in Port 
Royal. This would allow her to encounter unusual, interesting and possibly 
dangerous people, and to have unusual, interesting, and possibly dangerous 
goods pass through her establishment.  
 
Erol K. Bayburt 
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow 
 
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Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 23:35:12 -0600 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: A Pirate's Wife 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 08:08 PM 4/1/98 -0500, you wrote: 
>>The difficulty is that the social roles available to a woman  
>>in the 17th Century are pretty limited.  
 
I can see you're operating off assumptions here.  Get thee to the library! 
You want social histories and collective biographies.  The field is richer 
than you dream. 
 
If she's living in Jamaica she's probably single-handedly running the 
Prescott plantation; or nearly single-handedly, if she's got a trustworthy 
overseers.  Good overseers are hard to come by.  He might be cheating her, 
or - sacre bleu! - have designs on her virtue.  Difficulties among the 
slaves.  The vacillating price of sugar.  Malaria, yellow jack, typhus, and 
the market waits for no one.  Jostling for social position, ensuring 
business contacts and that the future Prescott young'uns (if they haven't 
got children it's time to start, damn it, don't you know you'll lose half 
of them to accident or disease and the estate will go to some cousin you 
don't care about?) will be able to make good matches.  Telling plausible 
lies about where Mr. Prescott's been all this time.  Laundering pirate gold. 
 
Here's a scenario for you - Mrs. has a great business/political/social 
opportunity, but it involves smuggling in something the Jamaican governer 
wants desperately and can't legally get.  She can use her French 
connections to locate the stuff, but somebody's got to fetch it and bring 
it back, and what on earth is the use of having a piratical husband if he 
can't do a little thing like that? 
 
Forget the hospital/charity stuff - that is soooo nineteenth century.  In 
the 17th, nothing we would recognize as a hospital existed.  Aristocratic 
women had better things to do with their time than risk their lives nursing 
a bunch of nasty, dirty, smelly sick people. 
 
This is Peni, assuring you that no storytelling problem is so severe it 
can't be solved by a trip to the library. 
 
|--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************| 
|--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/     | 
|   Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines           | 
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 00:33:17 -0600 (CST) 
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To: Hero System Listserv <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Subject: Re: Supplement request 
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A few issues ago in Herozine we did a page of blank counters.  They were 
just outlines you could color.  I am considering doing it again but I have a 
question.   
 
Would you rather have the "fold and stand counters" or the "Flat chip" counters? 
 
Every one seemed to really like the ones we did.   
 
I personally use minitures from all sorts of games and sources.  Vampire 
minis, make good heroes, as do a lot of D&D, you just need some time and a 
little patience to file away all the extra stuff.   
 
Michael 
Rising Force Publications 
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist recently updated web site... 
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
"You have never lived until you have almost died.  
And for those who fight for it, 
life has a flavor the protected never know"  
- anonymous 
 
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 01:09:52 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Hero List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Independent Focus 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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> What about things like Flight taken with OAF Wings like Dragonfly in the 
> BBB. Purchased this way I take it to mean if there is not enough romm to 
> spread your win that you can not fly and entanges can cause you to fall 
> etc. But with out surgery (or some violent act) the wing can not be remove. 
> Is this in the spirit of the limitation? 
 
	I'm not sure how the BBB writes it up, but if they're OAF then 
those wings are easily removeable.  It makes sense, actually.  It's not 
that hard to de-wing an insect. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 00:04:50 -0800 
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com> 
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com 
Organization: None 
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
CC: Champions Listserv <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
> > Er, Uh most Heroes (like, oh, Spiderman for example) rarely have trouble 
> > stopping normals with their entangles....So I don't see the problem. If the GM 
> > of that particular campaign has no problem with it, I have no problem with 
> > it... 
> 
>         And most heroes would have no problem stopping a normal with a 6 
> DEF, ~6 BOD entangle.  However, it is more effective against anybody as 
> the def is much more effective. 
> 
>         And saying if a GM of a particular campaign wants to do it it's 
> fine is like saying that if a GM wants to make EB cost 1 pt per die, he 
> can.  No one is stopping any GMs from doing what they want with the house 
> rules in their campaigns; however, that doesn't mean that unbalanced rules 
> will be added to the official set. 
> 
>                                 -Tim Gilberg 
> 
>                     -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
  Does Too. 
 
 
 
 
 
Sorry. 
As you were. 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 04:23:07 EST 
To: burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu, champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Martial Trip? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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<< Is anyone aware of a "martial trip" maneuver (sp?) in any of the 
suppliments? >> 
 
  Leg Sweep. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 04:26:40 EST 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: San Angelo: COH 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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<< Has this been officially released yet? Haven't seen it. Local game stores 
not 
heard of it. Did it get delayed again? >> 
 
  It's tentatively scheduled to go to print later this month. 
 
  On a related note, Pat Sweeney and I sat down for 8 hours today finalizing 
the San Angelo map. Over 100 different locales pinpointed on the map. And the 
map is only of the downtown area!  ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 04:36:03 EST 
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: A Pirate's Wife 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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<< Not only is [having her be kidnapped] uninteresting, it's inappropriate for 
the campaign; the pirate PC's are the ones who should be doing the kidnapping  
in this game. >> 
 
  She could: 
 
  1) Be hunted by the PC's enemies 
  2) Arrested by the local govt for sedition and co-conspiracy 
  3) Framed for a crime 
  4) have an evil twin come to town. :) 
  5) Be pursued by a jealous suitor 
  6) Be followed by a family curse 
  7) Catch a deathly serious disease/infection 
  8) Be hunted by secret spies for a monarch 
 
  That's all that comes to mind at the moment. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 02:04:39 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Block and Casual STR 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>  
>  
> Well, like I said, as long as your Blocking OCV is higher than your 
> attacker's OCVs, and they are using melee attacks, Block provides a 
> superior defense.  If your Blocking OCV is lower than your attacker's OCVs, 
> or they are using ranged attacks, Dodge is a superior defense. 
 
I have toyed with the concept that a character should not be able to  
block an attack from a *much* stronger opponent, at least not at full  
value.  Envision a normal's attempt to block a charging Rhino.  Leverage  
can do a lot, but only so much. 
 
As a first cut at this, I have ruled that if the blocking character's STR  
is less than half the attacker's STR, then the blocker suffers -1 OCV,  
and an additional -1 OCV for each 5 points short.  I include velocity  
bonuses (at 5 STR/die) but no other bonuses. 
 
Does this strike people as sufficient?  Excessive?  One could also  
purchase a number of 2-pt levels (OCV vs block) to represent this, but  
IMHO this is a STR effect. 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 04:18:28 -0600 (CST) 
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To: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com&> CHAMP-L@sysabend.org 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Subject: Re: A Pirate's Wife 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Not only is [having her be kidnapped] uninteresting, it's inappropriate for 
>the campaign; the pirate PC's are the ones who should be doing the kidnapping  
>in this game. >> 
> 
>  She could: 
 
Have an affair with an officer in the King Royal Navy, who wants to keep her 
for his own, by offin' her hubby... 
 
Michael 
Rising Force Publications 
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist recently updated web site... 
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
"You have never lived until you have almost died.  
And for those who fight for it, 
life has a flavor the protected never know"  
- anonymous 
 
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Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 02:49:14 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Hero System Listserv <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Luck / Unluck 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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David Stallard wrote: 
>  
> How common are Unluck (disad) and Luck (perk?) in your campaigns?  My 
> players don't take them, and I don't really encourage them, because they 
> seem overly broad and it seems like I'd have a hard time remembering to 
> factor them in--especially since no player is going to remind me that they 
> have Unluck at a critical moment.  If they're used in your game, how often 
> do they affect gameplay? 
 
I have a player, Janet, whose character, Nightshade, has powers that  
mostly work only at night.  During daylight runs, I allow her to play her  
follower, Jersey Smith (an archaeologist at Princeton), who has few  
superpowers, but does have 3D6 Luck.  This has saved his bacon multiple  
times. 
 
For example, JS was tagging along when the party got into a battle in a  
barn, and was hit by an Ice Blast that would have knocked him onto the  
geologic-era table, as well as into negative BODY.  Janet reminded me  
about his Luck, and I rolled the dice -- two sixes!  "Well, that blast  
*would* have hit, but, remember your shot that missed?  Well, it knocked  
down an old pulley system from up above, which hit the villain,  
deflecting his aim and doing 5D6 damage. 
 
I have another character, Tanith, a Wiccan Priestess who has conditional  
Unluck -- if she violates the ethical precepts of her religion, she will  
acquire Unluck until she is repaid threefold.  This has happened once or  
twice, generally when she takes an action that was justified out of  
character, but was not justified in character with the information  
available to Tanith.  BTW, this was the player's idea and the player  
usually is more severe at calling fouls on himself than I would be. 
 
For example, one night after a fruitless search-and-rescue mission, the  
party convened at an all night diner to discuss their next move.  In  
walked members of the New Jersey Christian Militia, a violent, radical  
group.  Out-of-character, the players knew that this was a battle waiting  
to happen; however, Tanith precipitated matters by blocking the doorway  
with a force field and showing herself in full regalia.  The NJCM  
(who has no experience of Force Fields) interpreted this as an attack by  
agents of the Antichrist and responded with assault rifles,  
endangering the normals that Tanith had trapped inside the diner. 
 
The next day, the party located their friend in a hospital, and Tanith  
tried to sneak him out past the Shore Patrol who was guarding him.   
Unfortunately, Tanith was equipped with two shiny new dice of unluck.   
Since she was at risk for the random actions of doctors, nurses and  
guards who couldn't see her, I rolled Unluck six times, and she got one  
'1' five times and snake-eyes once.  People kept bumping into her.  She  
detached the heart monitor leads and triggered a Code Blue.  The crash  
cart blocked her into the corner and they ran wires all around her.  She  
cast a sleep spell (EB NND Invisible) on the guard, only to have the  
shift change before she was done. 
 
I considered the scales balanced. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 03:20:48 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: A Pirate's Wife 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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X-UID: 11 
 
Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote: 
>  
> At 08:08 PM 4/1/98 -0500, you wrote: 
> >>The difficulty is that the social roles available to a woman 
> >>in the 17th Century are pretty limited. 
>  
> I can see you're operating off assumptions here.  Get thee to the library! 
> You want social histories and collective biographies.  The field is richer 
> than you dream. 
> . . .  
> Forget the hospital/charity stuff - that is soooo nineteenth century. 
 
I have to agree.  Aristocratic women were generally trained in the  
running of a household, which was a major undertaking.  They managed  
tenants, hired and managed servants, bought and sold slaves.  They made  
sure that the crop was sown and reaped on time, even if the master was  
away.  They supervised threshing, milling, baking, malting, brewing,  
butchering, smoking and other preservation, and generally managed the  
budget. 
 
How extensive is the Prescott household?  If it is small, she might be  
bored and want some adventure -- romantic or swashbuckling.  If it is  
large, the household should provide some story lines, and Mrs. Prescott  
would come into those. 
 
Don't despise kidnapping as a plot device: rival pirate crews might want  
to kidnap her to blackmail the PCs.  Pirate hunters would also not be  
above kidnapping a spouse in so remote a place, since due process issues  
would not come up once the notorious pirate is back in London or Paris.   
Her father could decide to kidnap her and take her back home. 
 
She could learn of a plot against her husband or of treasure and get into  
trouble following it up. 
 
Does she *want* to be a pirate's wife?  Perhaps she is scheming to get  
her husband a pardon so they can return to respectable society. 
   
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 03:26:43 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: More things for 5Ed to clarify... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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John Desmarais wrote: 
>  
> ---Lizard  wrote: 
> > 
> > a)If someone in a mind link goes unconscious, are they still in the 
> link? 
>  
> Nope, Mind Link requires the active paticipation of both parties. 
 
Actually, it is not clear whether the Mind Link breaks and must be  
reestablished, or whether the Link simply goes silent, perhaps after an  
involuntary mental "OUCH!" 
 
By analogy, if someone is KOed while on the phone, the phone may still be  
off the hook, they are just not using it. 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
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From: SteveL1979 <SteveL1979@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 06:44:01 EST 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: A Pirate's Wife 
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In a message dated 98-04-01 20:20:27 EST, jprins@interhop.net writes: 
 
<< >The difficulty is that the social roles available to a woman  
 >in the 17th Century are pretty limited. I'd like to keep things  
 >historically plausible (though not necessarily *likely*), but  
 >a seamstress just isn't going to provide a lot of opportunities  
 >for adventure plots.  >> 
 
  Sounds to me like you might want to look to her background to see what she 
was doing before she met Prescott, and base plots off of that.  Did she... 
 
 ...have an important/rich/powerful, and now insanely jealous, lover? 
 ...participate in some Scarlet Pimpernel/Robin Hood-like activities? 
 ...become involved in some sort of conspiracy, then abandon it when she 
realized how evil it was (only to now be a target of remaining conspirators)? 
 ...have friends who might get in trouble and come to her for help? 
 
  Having her in Port Royal makes it harder for some of these things to come 
out, but I'm sure you can manage.  Or, perhaps some of them actually occur in 
Port Royal.  For example, her maid might secretly belong to a voodoo cult, and 
she somehow gets framed for cult activities, or it could be a new, island, 
friend who gets in trouble and needs her help... and so on. :) 
 
Steve Long 
 
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Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 03:46:07 -0800 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Independent Focus 
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Leah L Watts wrote: 
>  
> >> Do most GMs out there outlaw or limit Independent Focus?  I allow it, 
> IF 
> >> only a minor part of your character's power comes from that focus.  
 
I have given Independent Foci to NPCs on rare occasion -- if the PCs get  
the item, they may treat it as a special award of experience and place  
the iten on their sheets, until they lose it. 
 
I try my utmost to talk players out of using it.  I inform them that, if  
they take Independent, if the focus is lost or breaks, I will not lift a  
finger to make it possible to get it back.  So far, I have been  
successful in all cases. 
 
 
>  
> I wish I'd had you as a GM the last time I played in a group that allowed 
> Independent Focus.  The guy running a Green Lantern clone decided he 
> didn't have enough points, so he bought all his powers Independent OAF -- 
> power ring, and said in his character origin that the ring was fused to 
> his finger and could not be removed.  The GM didn't see anything wrong 
> with giving the -3 limitation on all this character's powers.  My 
> munchkin allergy really kicked up at this point .... 
 
Actually, this is explicitly covered: 
 
	If removing a Focus would cause damage or removing the 
	Focus would require surgery, then it is not really a  
	Focus, and the character receives no bonus. 
	-- HSR p. 105. 
 
No interpretation, no waiting, no bonus, no argument. 
 
If someone wanted to try that on me as GM, I would be tempted to  
conference with the other players and set the guy up for a lesson.  I  
would allow the item as written, and have the first villain cut off the  
GL's hand and put the ring on himself.  "Sorry, those points are  
permanently lost, and the villain now has the power.  No, you can't sell  
the item back.  Sorry!"  I would have the villain kill another PC with  
the power and have everyone act mad at the idiot. 
 
After he had learned his lesson, we would declare the whole thing a bad  
dream, and begin with the real expedition and a legitimate writeup. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
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Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 09:24:24 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us> 
Subject: Re: A Pirate's Wife 
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At 11:35 PM 4/1/98 -0600, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote: 
>At 08:08 PM 4/1/98 -0500, you wrote: 
>>>The difficulty is that the social roles available to a woman  
>>>in the 17th Century are pretty limited.  
> 
>I can see you're operating off assumptions here.  Get thee to the library! 
>You want social histories and collective biographies.  The field is richer 
>than you dream. 
 
Actually, I'm operating off lots of research. I'm a librarian! I appreciate 
the plug for libraries, though. 
 
> 
>If she's living in Jamaica she's probably single-handedly running the 
>Prescott plantation; or nearly single-handedly, if she's got a trustworthy 
>overseers.   
 
I should have mentioned that the Prescotts probably don't own much land. 
Walter was a younger son without much inheritance - that's why he went to 
sea in the first place. Still, it's possible they might have acquired a 
small plantation with his officer's income. 
 
I fully realize that women had some important roles in that period, and 
that their opportunities were greater in colonies than in the Old World - 
but it's still been a challenge to come up with a suitably interesting 
situation for a DNPC. I'm mulling over your good suggestions, and the many 
others people have generated. Thanks to all! 
 
 
 
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Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 09:27:26 -0500 
To: hero-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us> 
Subject: Re: A Pirate's Wife 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 12:33 AM 4/2/98 EST, ErolB1 wrote: 
>In a message dated 98-04-01 19:22:23 EST, NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us wrote: 
> 
>> I'm trying to write up a DNPC for my pirate campaign, and  
>>  I thought people on the list might help generate some ideas  
>>  for me. 
> 
>[snip description of Marie Prescott's background] 
>  
>>  So, anybody out there have any good ideas? 
> 
>If you don't mind using a cliche, have Marie disguise herself as a man (or 
>simply dress as a man) and join the pirate crew in order to be close to her 
>husband. (It's a cliche - but it's a cliche because it gets used so often, 
and 
>it gets used so often because it's both dramatic and has historical 
>precedent.) 
> 
 
A good idea, but one I've already used for another character. Mary Read and 
Anne Bonny notwithstanding, it seems to me to be stretching things a bit 
too far to have two disguised women on board. 
 
 
 
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:52:36 -0600 (CST) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Disadavantage Category:Secret 
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On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Chad Riley wrote: 
 
< Vader's secret ID snipped > 
 
>    Sure How many people knew that the Big "D" was Luke's Old Man? he was 
> Darth Vader 
 
Well, more to the point, how many people /cared/?  Nobody was really 
trying to find out who Vader was under the mask, except maybe Luke, and 
that means it doesn't really qualify as the Secret ID disadvantage.  
 
 
"One equal temper of heroic hearts,              http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will              jeffj@io.com 
 To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."    - Tennyson, "Ulysses" 
 
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Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 06:56:59 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Independent Focus 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 07:14 AM 4/2/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
>Cc: Hero List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
>Subject: Re: Independent Focus 
> 
>> What about things like Flight taken with OAF Wings like Dragonfly in the 
>> BBB. Purchased this way I take it to mean if there is not enough romm to 
>> spread your win that you can not fly and entanges can cause you to fall 
>> etc. But with out surgery (or some violent act) the wing can not be remove. 
>> Is this in the spirit of the limitation? 
> 
> I'm not sure how the BBB writes it up, but if they're OAF then 
>those wings are easily removeable.  It makes sense, actually.  It's not 
>that hard to de-wing an insect. 
 
   OAF was how things like wings were represented at that time, since they 
are obvious and can be restrained with Entangle (unlike plain old Flight 
based on jets or anti-gravity or whatever).  HSA1 had a Limitation called 
Restrainable for -1/2, and I think this approach is much more sensible. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 07:12:24 -0800 
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Independent Focus 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 10:00 PM 3/31/1998 -0600, Ron Abitz wrote: 
>>    That would send bells off in my head as well.  A Focus that can't be 
>> removed or taken away?  The very definition of a Focus is that it's *not* a 
>> part of (or fused to) the character's body.  And I'm not sure how 
>> Independent would be justified in this case either. 
> 
>What about things like Flight taken with OAF Wings like Dragonfly in the 
>BBB. Purchased this way I take it to mean if there is not enough romm to 
>spread your win that you can not fly and entanges can cause you to fall 
>etc. But with out surgery (or some violent act) the wing can not be remove. 
>Is this in the spirit of the limitation? 
 
   It was one of those "we're going to do it this way because we can't 
think of a better way of doing it" things.  At that time, there wasn't 
really any way to represent that the wings stop working when Dragonfly is 
Entangled or his wings are Grabbed, so the designers gave them OAF.  That 
particular practice (wings as an OAF) went clear back to the earliest 
editions. 
   In HSA1, the Restrainable Limitation was introduced for -1/2, and this 
is specifically designed for stuff like Flight bought through wings.  An 
update of Dragonfly would probably use this Limitation (which, BTW, I hope 
shows up in the Fifth Edition Rulebook). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 07:17:24 -0800 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: More things for 5Ed to clarify... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 07:06 PM 4/1/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>> d)If you hit a mentalist with a bus, does that break her concentration? 
>BG>    I'd say that her concentration is the least that it would break. 
>BG> (Read that as a Yes.) 
> 
>I disagree.  Simply hitting someone will not cause them to falter.  You 
>have to do enough Stun damage to stun her in order to make her stop 
>maintaining constant powers.  The Concentration limitation may also have 
>something to say on that. 
 
   I stand corrected.  I was making the assumption that the bus would do 
enough damage to Stun the mentalist, but later entries in this conversation 
showed that this was tried -- twice -- and it did not.  (She must've had a 
Force Field up or something, or else been wearing some pretty good armor.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 07:19:24 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: San Angelo: COH 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 04:26 AM 4/2/1998 EST, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< Has this been officially released yet? Haven't seen it. Local game stores 
>not 
>heard of it. Did it get delayed again? >> 
> 
>  It's tentatively scheduled to go to print later this month. 
> 
>  On a related note, Pat Sweeney and I sat down for 8 hours today finalizing 
>the San Angelo map. Over 100 different locales pinpointed on the map. And the 
>map is only of the downtown area!  ;) 
 
   Say, I wonder if you could get a map of San Angelo printed like the ones 
you buy at gas stations and department stores? 
   It may not be practical, but it sure would be nifty! 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:33:06 -0600 (CST) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: New "Ultimate" Book Ideas! 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, Brian Wong wrote: 
 
< snip Ultimate Alien > 
 
> 	GURPS Aliens proved the concept was viable for 'serious' sci fi. I can 
> see the viability of suh a book for Hero, one that also shows silly aliens and 
> super hero aliens. 
 
GURPS Aliens was OK...GURPS Uplift was (IMHO) even better in that it gave 
you an idea of what affect the type of creature an alien evolved from 
would affect the alien's personality, the racial culture, etc. 
 
J 
 
"One equal temper of heroic hearts,              http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will              jeffj@io.com 
 To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."    - Tennyson, "Ulysses" 
 
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:35:10 -0500 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Supplement request 
Cc: Hero System Listserv <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by Michael Nunn 
>A few issues ago in Herozine we did a page of blank counters.  They were 
just outlines you could color.  I am considering doing it again but I have 
a 
question.   
 
Would you rather have the "fold and stand counters" or the "Flat chip" 
counters? 
 
Every one seemed to really like the ones we did.  < 
 
I'd rather have the "fold and stand" variety.  Which variety were the ones 
in Herozine?  I need to take a closer look at Herozine...I've heard about 
it and I went to the web page once, I think.  Is it an actual paper 'zine 
that comes in the mail, or is it web-based?  Sounds like it might be 
paper.... 
 
>I personally use minitures from all sorts of games and sources.  Vampire 
minis, make good heroes, as do a lot of D&D, you just need some time and a 
little patience to file away all the extra stuff. < 
 
I've always had a thing against miniatures, because they're expensive.  On 
the other hand, I'm not real fond of flat counters for some reason...maybe 
this comes from some Avalon Hill games I've played...I'd rather play games 
like Axis & Allies or Shogun where you have plastic minis (toy soldiers, 
basically) instead of a bunch of flat counters that are chock full o' 
numbers.  I would probably buy some superhero miniatures if they were still 
around, but I would prefer stand-up counters because they're a lot cheaper. 
 
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:54:54 -0800 (PST) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net 
Subject: Re: More things for 5Ed to clarify... 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com&> Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
---Bob Greenwade  wrote: 
> 
> At 07:06 PM 4/1/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
> >>> d)If you hit a mentalist with a bus, does that break her 
concentration? 
> >BG>    I'd say that her concentration is the least that it would 
break. 
> >BG> (Read that as a Yes.) 
> > 
> >I disagree.  Simply hitting someone will not cause them to falter.  
You 
> >have to do enough Stun damage to stun her in order to make her stop 
> >maintaining constant powers.  The Concentration limitation may also 
have 
> >something to say on that. 
>  
>    I stand corrected.  I was making the assumption that the bus 
would do 
> enough damage to Stun the mentalist, but later entries in this 
conversation 
> showed that this was tried -- twice -- and it did not.  (She must've 
had a 
> Force Field up or something, or else been wearing some pretty good 
armor.) 
 
Eh.  I made the same assumption you did.  Based on most of the 
mentalists I've played, even though they had respectable force fields, 
they were so fragile underneath the force field that an attack that 
big would rattle the hell out of them. 
 
 
== 
 
     John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
============================================ 
Got a question about the list?  Just ask.  Or, you can go 
look over at www.sysabend.org/champions.  I've been 
slowly posting information about the list there. 
 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 13:31:12 EST 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: San Angelo: COH 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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<< Say, I wonder if you could get a map of San Angelo printed like the ones 
you buy at gas stations and department stores? It may not be practical, but it 
sure would be nifty!>> 
 
  Well, printing a map that big is very expensive for smaller numbers (under 
10,000), but we are considering an 11x17 map. Even in b&w (grayscale) it looks 
quite nifty! :) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:45:18 -0600 (CST) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
> Flash vs. Sense of Balance can easily be 
> simulated with a DEX drain 
 
This would work well (IMHO) in Fuzion, where DEX and REF and TECH are 
separate stats, but realistically, the loss of your sense of balance is 
not going to affect your ability to fix watches, pick locks, perform other 
tasks of fine manipulation, or even aim and fire a braced (ranged) weapon. 
It also wouldn't affect your reaction time - but a DEX drain would do all 
of these things. 
 
It would be more appropriate to take a limitation on Drain vs Dex, 'only 
for balance' (probably -1/2).  If the GM allows this, one could also do 
things like slowing someone's reaction speed (Drain vs. Dex, only for 
combat order), etc. 
 
J  
 
"One equal temper of heroic hearts,              http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will              jeffj@io.com 
 To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."    - Tennyson, "Ulysses" 
 
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From: "Darien Lynx" <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Bob Greenwade" <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: More things for 5Ed to clarify... 
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 13:01:33 -0600 
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Well, maybe the mentalist just mentally illusioned the brick to scare the 
piss out of him. You never know. (wink) Maybe he only *thought* he hit the 
mentalist. Mentalists are so much fun... 
 
-----Original Message----- 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Thursday, April 02, 1998 10:34 AM 
Subject: Re: More things for 5Ed to clarify... 
 
 
>At 07:06 PM 4/1/1998 -0500, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>>> d)If you hit a mentalist with a bus, does that break her concentration? 
>>BG>    I'd say that her concentration is the least that it would break. 
>>BG> (Read that as a Yes.) 
>> 
>>I disagree.  Simply hitting someone will not cause them to falter.  You 
>>have to do enough Stun damage to stun her in order to make her stop 
>>maintaining constant powers.  The Concentration limitation may also have 
>>something to say on that. 
> 
>   I stand corrected.  I was making the assumption that the bus would do 
>enough damage to Stun the mentalist, but later entries in this conversation 
>showed that this was tried -- twice -- and it did not.  (She must've had a 
>Force Field up or something, or else been wearing some pretty good armor.) 
>--- 
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
>   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
>Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
>   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
> 
> 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "champions listserv" <champ-l@omg.org&> 
        "Eric Burns" <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 19:27:50  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Martial Trip? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:27:29 -0500 (EST), Eric Burns wrote: 
 
>I was looking through the martial arts maneuvers (sp?) and 
>found something obviously missing.  From my limited martial 
>arts knowledge (watching Jackie Chan movies and playing 
>Tekken 3) it seems to me that martial artists trip the people 
>they're fighting all the time.  Is anyone aware of a "martial 
>trip" maneuver (sp?) in any of the suppliments?  Failing that, 
>has anyone written up an optional rule for their campaign 
>they'd be willing to share? 
 
Isn't this just a variant of the Martial Throw or Takedown manoeuvers? 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Block and Casual STR 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 02 Apr 1998 14:40:21 -0500 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes: 
 
RAW> I have toyed with the concept that a character should not be able to 
RAW> block an attack from a *much* stronger opponent, at least not at full 
RAW> value.  Envision a normal's attempt to block a charging Rhino. 
RAW> Leverage can do a lot, but only so much. 
 
No.  Big no.  Block is not necessarilly a matter of leverage.  In fact, the 
SFX of a block maneuver might have no physical contact with the attacker: 
stepping sideways or forward outside or inside the attacker's guard, 
setting yourself up for a quick counterstrike, a common technique in many 
bare-handed martial styles.  Dodge does not cut it, as it does not have the 
followup component that this type of maneuver creates.  And this is at 
least partially why Block does not trigger a Damage Shield. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:45:48 -0800 (PST) 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
To: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: San Angelo: COH 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
> << Say, I wonder if you could get a map of San Angelo printed like the ones 
> you buy at gas stations and department stores? It may not be practical, but it 
> sure would be nifty!>> 
>  
>   Well, printing a map that big is very expensive for smaller numbers (under 
> 10,000), but we are considering an 11x17 map. Even in b&w (grayscale) it looks 
> quite nifty! :) 
 
	Well, you could put such a map on the website, seperated out in 
chunks that will print to a 8.5 by 11 page nicely. 
	Then just put the smaller map in the book. 
 
 
Rook ?U ?k 1b  'no giga pets were harmed in the production of this 
message'. 
 __ 
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html       Super Hero Links 
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/                   Super Hero RPG 
 
 
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:59:34 -0800 (PST) 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
cc: Hero List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Independent Focus 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
>  
>  
> > What about things like Flight taken with OAF Wings like Dragonfly in the 
> > BBB. Purchased this way I take it to mean if there is not enough romm to 
> > spread your win that you can not fly and entanges can cause you to fall 
> > etc. But with out surgery (or some violent act) the wing can not be remove. 
> > Is this in the spirit of the limitation? 
>  
> 	I'm not sure how the BBB writes it up, but if they're OAF then 
> those wings are easily removeable.  It makes sense, actually.  It's not 
> that hard to de-wing an insect. 
 
	One of the almanacs I believe introduced 'restrainable', a -1/2 
limitation that basically means the power is related to some thing 
(such as wings) which can be restrained. This is a much more viable option 
than using focus. 
 
 
Rook ?U ?k 1b  'no giga pets were harmed in the production of this  
message'. 
 __ 
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html       Super Hero Links 
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/                   Super Hero 
Roleplay 
 
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:05:17 -0800 (PST) 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
To: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Block and Casual STR 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> > Well, like I said, as long as your Blocking OCV is higher than your 
> > attacker's OCVs, and they are using melee attacks, Block provides a 
> > superior defense.  If your Blocking OCV is lower than your attacker's OCVs, 
> > or they are using ranged attacks, Dodge is a superior defense. 
>  
> I have toyed with the concept that a character should not be able to  
> block an attack from a *much* stronger opponent, at least not at full  
> value.  Envision a normal's attempt to block a charging Rhino.  Leverage  
> can do a lot, but only so much. 
 
	Realisticly, you can block an attack from a much stronger 
opponant. A proper block is not just throwing up your arms and having it 
hit them instead. It is a redirection of the force coming at you to 
another direction. Versus a punch, this is often seen as coming in fast 
to the side of the opponents arm and sliding it just a notch sideways as 
you move your body just a notch, setting up a perfect counter strike. 
	Done properly it takes near no strength to block any attack. 
 
 
Rook ?U ?k 1b  'no giga pets were harmed in the production of this 
message'. 
 __ 
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html       Super Hero Links 
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/                   Super Hero 
Roleplay 
 
 
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:06:15 -0500 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>   Now, *that's* a valid point; with this ability, the name can be 
confusing.  Adding a new Power (for the sake of argument, call it Create) 
that has roughly the same mechanics but functions just differently enough 
to be considered a separate Power wouldn't be too far-fetched. 
   I just hope that this wouldn't put it beyond the realm of where the Hero 
Guys want to go for Hero5.< 
 
It seems like I remember a "Create Matter" power from some other game, but 
I'm just guessing since I haven't looked at another superhero game in many 
years.  I don't think that adding this new power would cause much commotion 
in the Hero System world, since it wouldn't make any old source material 
invalid. 
 
I'm curious...a while back I was talking about an earth controller who 
wanted to be able to form shapes out of the ground, like a chair, table, 
big arrow pointing to the correct path, a statue, and so forth.  The two 
suggested implementations were Telekinesis and Change Environment.  Now, 
though, it sounds like Entangle would be another option.  I still have 
trouble using a power called "Entangle" to do something that is totally 
unrelated to entangling someone, though.  The concept is good, the name is 
bad. 
 
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:12:07 -0500 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: San Angelo question 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Two ideas that I really enjoy in Bay City are "The Pit" and the Wildstriker 
community hidden underground.  These are much more conducive to story ideas 
and campaign continuity than merely describing areas of town and what 
certain corporations are up to.  Are there any comparable items in San 
Angelo?  I think I saw a message from Pat Sweeney(?) saying that SA was 
based in reality, and I'm not sure if that means that "The Pit" would be 
too outlandish an idea for SA. 
 
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X-SMTP: helo mail.interhop.net from jprins@interhop.net server root@mail.interhop.net ip 204.50.138.29 
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:25:23 -0500 (EST) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>> Flash vs. Sense of Balance can easily be 
>> simulated with a DEX drain 
> 
>This would work well (IMHO) in Fuzion, where DEX and REF and TECH are 
>separate stats, but realistically, the loss of your sense of balance is 
>not going to affect your ability to fix watches, pick locks, perform other 
>tasks of fine manipulation, or even aim and fire a braced (ranged) weapon. 
 
Bullshit, if you'll pardon my french. Stand up and spin in place for a 
couple minutes. Then try setting your watch or pointing at something. Your 
sense of balance is VITAL to staying upright - even in a chair! Unless 
you're sitting in such a manner that gravity alone keeps you in place, 
you'll weave all over the place. 
 
>It also wouldn't affect your reaction time - but a DEX drain would do all 
>of these things. 
 
Do the above and play catch with someone. Hilarity ensues. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:13:20 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Hero List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Independent Focus 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> > 	I'm not sure how the BBB writes it up, but if they're OAF then 
> > those wings are easily removeable.  It makes sense, actually.  It's not 
> > that hard to de-wing an insect. 
> 
> 	One of the almanacs I believe introduced 'restrainable', a -1/2 
> limitation that basically means the power is related to some thing 
> (such as wings) which can be restrained. This is a much more viable option 
> than using focus. 
 
	I'm quite familiar with "restrainable".  However, there are valid 
SFX for taking OAF wings.  They will come off pretty easily, but are 
probably personal and can be regrown in a reasonable time. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:45:00 -0500 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Independent Focus 
Cc: Hero List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
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We've been talking about villains taking a hero's Independent Focus.  But 
what if we turn it around, and the hero gets a villain's IF?  If he wants 
to keep it and make it part of his character (I'm gonna start using this 
magic sword 'cause it's cool!), would you let him?  Or would you make sure 
that he loses it somehow (the villain gets it back, etc)? 
 
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 13:45:10 -0800 (PST) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Block and Casual STR 
To: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Brian Wong writes: 
>      Realisticly, you can block an attack from a much stronger 
> opponant. A proper block is not just throwing up your arms and having it 
> hit them instead. It is a redirection of the force coming at you to 
> another direction. Versus a punch, this is often seen as coming in fast 
> to the side of the opponents arm and sliding it just a notch sideways as 
> you move your body just a notch, setting up a perfect counter strike. 
>      Done properly it takes near no strength to block any attack. 
 
Cheers for 'martial arts myths'.  Blocking requires sufficient force to move 
the striking weapon (or fist) sufficiently to one side or the other that it 
does not strike the attacker, in the time it takes for the strike to arrive.  
This force is significantly less than the force of the blow, possibly by over 
an order of magnitude, but is not zero ;).  That said, comic book physics works 
more like myth than reality. 
 
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:45:12 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Flash - Sense Touch 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> Bullshit, if you'll pardon my french. Stand up and spin in place for a 
> couple minutes. Then try setting your watch or pointing at something. Your 
> sense of balance is VITAL to staying upright - even in a chair! Unless 
> you're sitting in such a manner that gravity alone keeps you in place, 
> you'll weave all over the place. 
 
	Which is why the sense of touch should probably remain separate, 
game mechanics-wise, to Balance.  Balance can be better simulated with DEX 
and DEX adjusting powers.  Now, sense could still keep pressure, heat, and 
pain. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:58:20 -0500 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Adjustment powers 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Adjustment powers do not affect figured characteristics (if I'm wrong about 
that, then the rest of this message is null and void).  So, it seems to me 
that a DEX Drain (DEX is just one example) would have very little effect on 
combat....your SPD stays the same for sure.  Do OCV/DCV count as a figured 
characteristic?  If so, then you are still just as effective after your DEX 
has been drained.  What about skills such as Acrobatics that are based on 
DEX?  Do they get modified with a drain?  It seems like the only reason to 
drain DEX would be so that you could go before the opponent on phases when 
you move together. 
 
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:58:26 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: 5th Edition, Last Minute: Entangle 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> > Your way looks good to me.  Or maybe just 5 STR per def of the 
> >entangle?  Or 5 STR per BOD of the entangle?  The latter would allow you 
> >to add on to the entangle, adding BOD at 1 pt per as normal entangle 
> >attacks do. 
> 
>    I'm not sure what distinction you're making here. 
 
	Er, neither am I.  I guess I was saying there are arguements for 
using DEF, arguments for using BOD, and arguments for using DEF+BOD for 
carrying Strength.  Either of the BOD-involved ones will, if using 
Entangle to build the object, see the carrying capacity increase by firing 
another entangle onto the first.  (At the 1 BOD per entangle rate in the 
BBB) 
 
> > This would be nice, though I suspect the answers to your questions 
> >will result in a "depends on SFX".  I'd hate it to be any other way. 
> 
>    As usual, if it depends on SFX, then that should be stated.  :-] 
 
	Well, considering that is the basis behind the whole system, I 
don't see a need to continually restate it for each and every power. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:10:32 EST 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: San Angelo: COH 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< Well, you could put such a map on the website, seperated out in chunks that 
will print to a 8.5 by 11 page nicely. >> 
 
  And you think we've not considered a similar plan?  ;) 
 
  I think folks will have a lot more to see of San Angelo in the near future, 
up on the web site. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:10:35 EST 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: San Angelo question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< Two ideas that I really enjoy in Bay City are "The Pit" and the Wildstriker 
community hidden underground. Are there any comparable items in San Angelo? >> 
 
  Hm. I'm goping to have to check my copy of Bay City and get back to you. I'm 
unfamiliar with those two items. Perhaps Pat can throw in his 2 cents in the 
meantime. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 14:16:37 -0800 (PST) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net 
Subject: Re: Independent Focus 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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X-UID: 8 
 
---David Stallard  wrote: 
> 
> We've been talking about villains taking a hero's Independent Focus. 
 But 
> what if we turn it around, and the hero gets a villain's IF?  If he 
wants 
> to keep it and make it part of his character (I'm gonna start using 
this 
> magic sword 'cause it's cool!), would you let him?  Or would you 
make sure 
> that he loses it somehow (the villain gets it back, etc)? 
 
For Champions (as opposed to something like Fantasy Hero) my general 
rule is that if a PC picks up an Independant focus he can use it for 
that adventure.  If he wants to keep it beyond that he's got to invest 
experience points into to pay for it.  (In some cases I might consider 
letting the PC pay for it in installments, but that would on a very 
rare case-by-case basis). 
 
 
 
== 
 
     John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
============================================ 
Got a question about the list?  Just ask.  Or, you can go 
look over at www.sysabend.org/champions.  I've been 
slowly posting information about the list there. 
 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
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Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 14:18:49 -0800 (PST) 
From: John Desmarais <johnd