Week Ending April 11, 1998

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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Retcons (Was Re: Independent Focus) 
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 09:21:52 +1000 
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Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
> >Finally, since the past has become so mutable in comics, even changes 
that 
> >are framed as "surprising revelations" or "new discoveries" sometimes 
get 
> >labelled retcons if they change what had previously been assumed about 
the 
> >character. For example, Batman might refer to a case early in his career 
> >which has never previously been published - some readers would describe 
> >this as a retcon. This third sense is what "qts" meant, I think: a new 
> >revelation about the sword, even if neither the player, the character, 
nor 
> >the GM had thought of it earlier. 
>  
> Errr, not quite, I meant Retroactive Construction - ie you go back and 
> change the character sheet. This also implies what you state, but 
> doesn't state it explicitly. After all, we're talking HERO here, not 
> comics. 
>  
 
another idea is to play 'never needed it before'- spend xp on abilities 
your character always had, but just now started to use. .  
 
 
 
> qts 
>  
> Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
>  
 
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Villain Name 
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 09:32:06 +1000 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
---------- 
> From: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org; Tim R. Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
> Subject: Re: Villain Name 
> Date: Sunday, April 05, 1998 8:05 AM 
>  
> On Sat, 4 Apr 1998 13:01:18 -0600 (CST), Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>  
> > 
> >> >Does anyone recall any characters from comic books, RPGs, etc., named 
Lord 
> >> >Bane? 
> >> 
> >> >From TSRs Forgotten Realms. A deity, if memory serves. 
> > 
> >	That would be it.  I remember him from the whatever Avatars 
> >Forgotten Realms series.  (Hey, be nice.  I was young and didn't know 
how 
> >I was wasting my valuable reading time!) 
>  
> I'm sorry, young man. Not only must justice be done, but it must be 
> seen to be done. I hereby sentence you to appear on Blind Date. 
>  
 
heh. we abolished dating show years ago- ((of course there was that one  
last year where couples competed for the chance to be married on tv))- 
but my post is about bane- obviously that's the bane he meant, but has 
anyone 
heard of another bane, apart from the batman one and the novel mentioned 
earlier?  
i'm sure there was a cartooon or something with a 'bane' in it.   
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
> <g> 
>  
> qts 
>  
> Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
>  
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Block and Casual STR 
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X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 04 Apr 1998 21:58:00 -0400 
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Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes: 
 
RAW> But, there is not a single defined SFX for the character. 
 
This is intentional.  A single combat manevuer may be used to represent a 
plethora of combat techniques.  A character might know two hundred 
distinctly different techniques for "blocking" a particular category of 
strike techniques; he needs only "Martial Block" and the appropriate 
Knowledge Skill(s) to encompass all of his techniques. 
 
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Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Villain Name 
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 16:34:51 +1000 
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Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
>  
>  
> > heh. we abolished dating show years ago- ((of course there was that one 
> > last year where couples competed for the chance to be married on tv))- 
> > but my post is about bane- obviously that's the bane he meant, but has 
> > anyone 
> > heard of another bane, apart from the batman one and the novel 
mentioned 
> > earlier? 
> > i'm sure there was a cartooon or something with a 'bane' in it. 
>  
> 	Well, The Simpsons has an occasionally appearing character named 
> "McBain". 
>  
>  
> 				-Tim Gilberg 
>  
> 		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
that's the one! :->~  
 
 
  
 
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Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 23:45:12 -0600 (CST) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Villain Name 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> heh. we abolished dating show years ago- ((of course there was that one 
> last year where couples competed for the chance to be married on tv))- 
> but my post is about bane- obviously that's the bane he meant, but has 
> anyone 
> heard of another bane, apart from the batman one and the novel mentioned 
> earlier? 
> i'm sure there was a cartooon or something with a 'bane' in it. 
 
	Well, The Simpsons has an occasionally appearing character named 
"McBain". 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 13:04:50 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 01:56 PM 4/5/1998 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
>A question came up last night.  How, other than Transform would you point  
>up a Memory Eraser?  Mind Control at a sufficient level makes the target  
>forget the Mind Control and the events under its influence, but the  
>command will eventually wear off.  A command to "Forget the last 5  
>Minutes" will wear off eventually, and the target will remember. 
 
   TUM has a nice chart for using Dispel BOECV for affecting the mind, 
listing the following as Active Points of what's being deleted (slightly 
paraphrased below): 
 
Object                     Value 
Berserk/Enranged            Cost 
Fact, minor importance         5 
 ", medium importance         10 
 ", major importance          15 
 ", extreme importance        20 
Memory, weak                  10 
 ", medium strength           15 
 ", strong/important/intense  20 
 ", extremely strong/intense  25 
Mental Signature*             10 
Mental Power             AP Cost 
Mental Tag*                   15 
Mental Trace*                 10 
Mental Trap*             AP Cost 
Psychological Limitation    Cost 
Psychosomatic Limitation*   Cost 
Skill                 17+AP Cost 
 
   *Don't panic if you don't understand these terms. 
 
   So if you want something that will cause the target to forget everything 
that happened in the preceding 5 minutes, you'd probably want to assume 
that the experience was a fairly intense one, and have enough Dispel to 
erase 20 points' worth with an average Roll (6d6, or 18 points' worth). 
Add BOECV and Range, and the total cost is 45 points.  You can be happy 
with that, or add an extra 2d6 and make the total Active Cost the 
ubiquitous 60 points, or another +1 Advantage (say, Area Effect, or 
Explosion at +2" per DC lost) to make it worth 63 points. 
   Add further Modifiers to taste. 
 
>I always try very hard to find an option other than Transform, regarding  
>it as the power of last resort. 
 
   A good philosophy, in my view.  :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 98 20:12:46  
Subject: Re: Comic triva question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sun, 5 Apr 1998 18:22:39 -0400 (EDT), Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
>The main characters in DC's way cool series "Watchmen" were based on 
>characters created by *another* comic company that DC bought.  For 
>example, Nite Owl II is pretty much the Blue Beetle, Dr. Manhattan is Cpt. 
>Atom and Rorschach is The Question.  Does anyone know who Comedian, 
>Ozymandias and Silk Spectre were based off of?  (I think Comedian is 
>Peacemaker...) 
 
Comedian:  Peacemaker 
 
Ozymandias:  Thunderbolt (Peter Cannon) 
 
Silk Spectre:  Nightshade 
 
 
 
 
 
 
      John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysanbend,org> 
================================================= 
Gotta question about the list? Just ask. Or, you can go look  
over at www.sysabend.org/champions.  I've been slowly 
posting information about the list there. 
 
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Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 13:47:13 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Block and Casual STR 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> >>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes: 
>  
> RAW> But, there is not a single defined SFX for the character. 
>  
> This is intentional.  A single combat manevuer may be used to represent a 
> plethora of combat techniques.   
 
My point exactly.  It was you who were claiming otherwise. 
 
>                                  A character might know two hundred 
> distinctly different techniques for "blocking" a particular category of 
> strike techniques;  
 
Well, 200 *distinctly different* techniques for *each strike technique*  
is a bit overboard -- I am not sure there is that much difference under  
the present discussion between a direct and a circular parry. 
 
>                      he needs only "Martial Block" and the appropriate 
> Knowledge Skill(s) to encompass all of his techniques. 
 
But, a combatant does not have a free choice of techniques; each exists  
to handle a type of circumstance.  If, for any reason, one or more of  
those techniques are unavailable to a combatant, then he is at a  
disadvantage.  At some difference in strength, a bind become impossible  
and corps-a-corps becomes a losing proposition; at a greater difference,  
a beat fails, and ultimtely even a glide becomes impossible.  The weaker  
opponent's repertoire becomes more restricted, reducing his  
effectiveness. 
 
Now, at reasonable differences in STR, I have no problem with ignoring  
the game effect.  Athletic normals are in the range 10-20, and my  
proposed rule would only constitute a -1 at the extreme difference.  
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 13:56:35 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Erasing Memories 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
A question came up last night.  How, other than Transform would you point  
up a Memory Eraser?  Mind Control at a sufficient level makes the target  
forget the Mind Control and the events under its influence, but the  
command will eventually wear off.  A command to "Forget the last 5  
Minutes" will wear off eventually, and the target will remember. 
 
I always try very hard to find an option other than Transform, regarding  
it as the power of last resort. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 16:42:00 -0500 (CDT) 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 01:56 PM 4/5/98 -0700, you wrote: 
>A question came up last night.  How, other than Transform would you point  
>up a Memory Eraser?  Mind Control at a sufficient level makes the target  
>forget the Mind Control and the events under its influence, but the  
>command will eventually wear off.  A command to "Forget the last 5  
>Minutes" will wear off eventually, and the target will remember. 
> 
>I always try very hard to find an option other than Transform, regarding  
>it as the power of last resort. 
> 
>--  
><-------------------------------------------------------> 
>Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
>Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
>http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
> 
 
        I would have to say the taking a look in the UM would be your best 
shot.  I know that the last time that I looked threough it, that it gave a 
lot of ideas for mentalist characters. 
        But yeah, doing a Transform BOECV would be the best bet to go with. 
Depending on how mush memory you would be looking to erase, would depend on 
the type of transform that would be used (cosmetic, minor, major). 
 
-Dan 
 
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From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 22:13:12 GMT 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sun, 05 Apr 1998 13:56:35 -0700, you wrote: 
 
>A question came up last night.  How, other than Transform would you point  
>up a Memory Eraser?  Mind Control at a sufficient level makes the target  
>forget the Mind Control and the events under its influence, but the  
>command will eventually wear off.  A command to "Forget the last 5  
>Minutes" will wear off eventually, and the target will remember. 
> 
>I always try very hard to find an option other than Transform, regarding  
>it as the power of last resort. 
 
If you look at Telepathy, getting enough levels above the target's EGO 
will allow the mentalist to alter deep memories and plant incorrect 
ones. This is similar to erasing memories and replacing them with 
nothing at all, and that's how I allow this to happen in my campaign. 
 
The rules on this were either in the Ultimate Mentalist or in the BBB. 
 
John Lansford 
http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/intro.htm 
 
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Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 18:22:39 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Comic triva question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
The main characters in DC's way cool series "Watchmen" were based on 
characters created by *another* comic company that DC bought.  For 
example, Nite Owl II is pretty much the Blue Beetle, Dr. Manhattan is Cpt. 
Atom and Rorschach is The Question.  Does anyone know who Comedian, 
Ozymandias and Silk Spectre were based off of?  (I think Comedian is 
Peacemaker...) 
 
PS: Can you tell what my latest adpations are? (yeah, and I'm still 
tinkering with Devil Hunter Yoko) 
 
Serious, I hope to have both the Minutemen *and* the Watchmen out in a few 
weeks. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 18:05:39 -0500 
Subject: Re: Comic triva question 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-15 
From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David W Toomey) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>The main characters in DC's way cool series "Watchmen" were based on 
>characters created by *another* comic company that DC bought.  For 
>example, Nite Owl II is pretty much the Blue Beetle, Dr. Manhattan is  
>Cpt. 
>Atom and Rorschach is The Question.  Does anyone know who Comedian, 
>Ozymandias and Silk Spectre were based off of?  (I think Comedian is 
>Peacemaker...) 
 
 
Silk Spectre: Nightshade without powers is my guess 
Ozymandias: Actually, I think *he's* Peacemaker 
Comedian:  No idea 
 
 
David W Toomey 
dwtoomey@juno.com 
 
_____________________________________________________________________ 
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. 
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com 
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Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 16:12:07 -0700 
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Critical Hits 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
   Here's an idea for critical hits that I thought up a couple of weeks 
ago.  It does have a few holes in it (like the fact that there's no 
Critical Miss equivalent), but I think it's something worth considering. 
   The idea came to me when I was wondering about Find Weakness.  If an 
expert can find a weakness by training (or whatever), why couldn't someone 
occasionally find one by accident?  How would that work? 
   So my rule suggestion is that this is exactly what happens when someone 
rolls a natural 3 on an Attack Roll. 
   This form of Find Weakness is DEX-based instead of INT-based, and cannot 
be bought up (since it's a combat event and not a Skill).  Skill Levels do 
not apply to it (not even Overall Levels).  However, the character does get 
a +1 for every 2 points the Attack Roll was actually made by.  (If an 11 is 
needed and a 3 is rolled, that's a difference of 8, so the character gets a 
+4 to the Find Weakness.)  If the target has Luck, then he may also get a 
+1 for every level of Luck rolled. 
   The target's Lack of Weakness, if any, does apply to this Find Weakness. 
   The attacker may continue to roll Find Weakness, with the usual 
cumulative penalty of -2 per successive Roll, until he misses one.  Each 
successful Roll cuts the target's defenses in half *for that attack only*. 
 
   Now, right off-hand, I can see a couple of problems with this: 
   1) As mentioned above, there's no "critical miss" equivalent to balance 
this; if anyone has ideas, I'm open to suggestions. 
   2) It introduces yet more die-rolling to the game; in fact, when 
invoked, there's a likely average of around 3 additional rolls each time. 
(This could be fixed by making just one Find Weakness Roll, and halving the 
target's defenses for every +2 that it's made by.) 
 
   On the other hand, it has these strengths: 
   1) It increases the damage actually done without messing with the basic 
amount done, making it arguably just a little more true-to-life than just 
declaring that maximum damage is done. 
   2) Its effect is variable -- some hits are more critical than others. 
   3) It covers an occurrance (accidental Find Weakness) that logically 
should be able to happen from time to time. 
   4) The problems mentioned above are mitigated somewhat by two things: 
(a) it will only happen in one Attack Roll out of 216, and (b) it's as 
likely to happen to the bad guys as to the PCs. 
 
   If this idea goes over reasonably well with the list, I may add an 
adaptation of this rule to my Diceless Combat System. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 19:39:28 -0400 (EDT) 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>Actually, this illustrates why I dislike using Transforms.  IMO, erasing  
>a memory, no matter how brief, is more than Cosmetic.  A Major Transform  
>can erase all memories and replace them with completely different ones.   
>This leaves Minor Transform to do all the work in the middle.  Yecchh! 
 
Not really. With a Cosmetic Transform you could change very minor memories 
("What color was his suit?" "Uh...blue!" <zworp!> "Uh...green!"). Minor 
Transform could change more important events ("What kind of weapon did he 
pull out?" "A 9mm automatic pistol!" <zworp!> "No, uh, a sawed-off 
shotgun!"), and Major Transform would affect the really important memories 
("And did you see the man's face?" "Yeah, it was Fred!!" <zworp!> "Uh, I 
mean, it was Jacob!"). 
 
To help model this, Cosmetic would only affect memories that somebody with 
Eidetic Memory would easily remember. Minor would be good for stuff anyone 
would remember on a successful INT roll. Major would be for stuff people 
just don't forget under normal circumstances. Given the nature of 
superheroic comics, most memories would be Major, after all, you seldom 
forget the fact that Psionia just made Banjo Bob's head explode. 
 
To simply 'erase' memories, I think an BOECV RKA (Does BODY) would be 
appropriate (with Indirect at the full level). So long as the appropriate 
limitations are piled on it to prevent abuse (a BOECV Does Body Fully 
Indirect RKA is powerful!), I'd allow it, though Transdimensional should 
probably be tacked on as well (treating the person's memories as a 
'dimension'; you use Telepathy to target the power). 
 
But it's messy, right? Simple BOECV Major Transform is probably the ticket.  
1D6 Major Transform, BOECV (+1), Cumulative (+1/2), Invisible to Sight and 
Sound (+3/4), Indirect (+1/2) = 65 Active Points. Most mentalists could fit 
this into their Multipower. 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 17:40:04 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Palace of Dwarves wrote: 
>  
> At 01:56 PM 4/5/98 -0700, you wrote: 
> >A question came up last night.  How, other than Transform would you point 
> >up a Memory Eraser? 
>  
>         I would have to say the taking a look in the UM would be your best 
> shot.  I know that the last time that I looked threough it, that it gave a 
> lot of ideas for mentalist characters. 
 
Well, it is out of print according to all the stores I have checked, and  
I am not thrilled with the Hero Plus CD concept -- it looks as if I may  
have to break down and go with that. 
 
I did think about a Mind Control bought Uncontrolled as a Continuing  
Charge of duration 25 years(+1 1/2 if a single charge) to prevent the EGO  
roll from improving over time. 
 
>         But yeah, doing a Transform BOECV would be the best bet to go with. 
> Depending on how mush memory you would be looking to erase, would depend on 
> the type of transform that would be used (cosmetic, minor, major). 
 
Actually, this illustrates why I dislike using Transforms.  IMO, erasing  
a memory, no matter how brief, is more than Cosmetic.  A Major Transform  
can erase all memories and replace them with completely different ones.   
This leaves Minor Transform to do all the work in the middle.  Yecchh! 
	 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
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Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 22:24:42 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org, Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re: Comic triva question 
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At 06:22 PM 4/5/98 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>The main characters in DC's way cool series "Watchmen" were based on 
>characters created by *another* comic company that DC bought.  For 
>example, Nite Owl II is pretty much the Blue Beetle, Dr. Manhattan  
is Cpt. 
>Atom and Rorschach is The Question.  Does anyone know who Comedian, 
>Ozymandias and Silk Spectre were based off of?  (I think Comedian is 
>Peacemaker...) 
> 
>PS: Can you tell what my latest adpations are? (yeah, and I'm still 
>tinkering with Devil Hunter Yoko) 
> 
>Serious, I hope to have both the Minutemen *and* the Watchmen out in  
a few 
>weeks. 
> 
Do you have access to the excellent Watchmen sourcebook published for  
DC Heroes? A LOT of details that never made it into the comics, esp.  
about the Minutemen. All approved by Moore, IIRC. 
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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 07:05:35 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Comic triva question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Sun, 5 Apr 1998, Lizard wrote: 
 
> >Seriously, I hope to have both the Minutemen *and* the Watchmen out in  
> >a few weeks. 
> > 
> Do you have access to the excellent Watchmen sourcebook published for  
> DC Heroes? A LOT of details that never made it into the comics, esp.  
> about the Minutemen. All approved by Moore, IIRC. 
 
Yes.  I have the two Watchmen adventures put out for DC Heroes, as well as 
the AC conversion issue. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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From: SteveL1979 <SteveL1979@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:15:06 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Comic triva question 
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In a message dated 98-04-06 07:44:34 EDT, you write: 
 
<< > Do you have access to the excellent Watchmen sourcebook published for  
 > DC Heroes? A LOT of details that never made it into the comics, esp.  
 > about the Minutemen. All approved by Moore, IIRC. 
  
 Yes.  I have the two Watchmen adventures put out for DC Heroes, as well as 
 the AC conversion issue. >> 
 
  There was also a specific WATCHMEN *sourcebook* in addition to the two 
scenarios; it contains a lot of useful info that would help you write up the 
characters in Hero System stats. 
 
Steve Long 
 
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Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 10:16:40 -0400 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Will Austin <wga@po.CWRU.Edu> 
Subject: Re: Comic triva question 
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<x-rich>At 08:12 PM 4/5/98, you wrote: 
 
>On Sun, 5 Apr 1998 18:22:39 -0400 (EDT), Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> 
 
>>The main characters in DC's way cool series "Watchmen" were based on 
 
>>characters created by *another* comic company that DC bought.  For 
 
>>example, Nite Owl II is pretty much the Blue Beetle, Dr. Manhattan is Cpt. 
 
>>Atom and Rorschach is The Question.  Does anyone know who Comedian, 
 
>>Ozymandias and Silk Spectre were based off of?  (I think Comedian is 
 
>>Peacemaker...) 
 
> 
 
>Ozymandias:  Thunderbolt (Peter Cannon) 
 
 
I thought Ozy was the Judomaster. . . . . 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
============================================================================ 
 
 
Nomad 
 
wga@po.cwru.edu 
 
myrtth@geocities.com 
 
 
"We are such stuff as dreams are made on, and our little life is rounded 
with a sleep." 
 
						--Shakespeare, <bold><italic>The Tempest</italic></bold>, 
IV.i.148	 
 
============================================================================ 
 
</x-rich> 
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Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 09:22:15 -0500 
From: John Stefanski <jstefanski@internetmci.com> 
Subject: RE: Critical Hits 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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In many of our campaigns over the past 10 years we have subscribed to the  
house rule that any "natural 3" is double effect. (That's before defenses)  
It has the effect of an incredible shot/punch/effect.  At one point we went  
so far to include 1.5 effect on a "natural 4."  On the flip side anyone who  
rolls an attack roll of 18 is automatically at 1/2 DCV to the effect of a  
stubbing of a toe/trip/itch to scratch etc.  I recognize this rule leans  
more toward the PC's but I see no problem with that.  I can't tell you  
where it came from since we've been using it for so long. 
 
JS 
======================== 
JS Stefanski - jstefanski@iname.com 
 
"aut vincere aut mori" - Conquer or Die	 
======================== 
 
On April 05, 1998 6:12 PM, Bob Greenwade [SMTP:bob.greenwade@klock.com]  
wrote: 
>    Here's an idea for critical hits that I thought up a couple of weeks 
> ago.  It does have a few holes in it (like the fact that there's no 
> Critical Miss equivalent), but I think it's something worth considering. 
>    The idea came to me when I was wondering about Find Weakness.  If an 
> expert can find a weakness by training (or whatever), why couldn't  
someone 
> occasionally find one by accident?  How would that work? 
>    So my rule suggestion is that this is exactly what happens when  
someone 
> rolls a natural 3 on an Attack Roll. 
>    This form of Find Weakness is DEX-based instead of INT-based, and  
cannot 
> be bought up (since it's a combat event and not a Skill).  Skill Levels  
do 
> not apply to it (not even Overall Levels).  However, the character does  
get 
> a +1 for every 2 points the Attack Roll was actually made by.  (If an 11  
is 
> needed and a 3 is rolled, that's a difference of 8, so the character gets  
a 
> +4 to the Find Weakness.)  If the target has Luck, then he may also get a 
> +1 for every level of Luck rolled. 
>    The target's Lack of Weakness, if any, does apply to this Find  
Weakness. 
>    The attacker may continue to roll Find Weakness, with the usual 
> cumulative penalty of -2 per successive Roll, until he misses one.  Each 
> successful Roll cuts the target's defenses in half *for that attack  
only*. 
> 
>    Now, right off-hand, I can see a couple of problems with this: 
>    1) As mentioned above, there's no "critical miss" equivalent to  
balance 
> this; if anyone has ideas, I'm open to suggestions. 
>    2) It introduces yet more die-rolling to the game; in fact, when 
> invoked, there's a likely average of around 3 additional rolls each time. 
> (This could be fixed by making just one Find Weakness Roll, and halving  
the 
> target's defenses for every +2 that it's made by.) 
> 
>    On the other hand, it has these strengths: 
>    1) It increases the damage actually done without messing with the  
basic 
> amount done, making it arguably just a little more true-to-life than just 
> declaring that maximum damage is done. 
>    2) Its effect is variable -- some hits are more critical than others. 
>    3) It covers an occurrance (accidental Find Weakness) that logically 
> should be able to happen from time to time. 
>    4) The problems mentioned above are mitigated somewhat by two things: 
> (a) it will only happen in one Attack Roll out of 216, and (b) it's as 
> likely to happen to the bad guys as to the PCs. 
> 
>    If this idea goes over reasonably well with the list, I may add an 
> adaptation of this rule to my Diceless Combat System. 
> --- 
> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
> Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 09:30:02 -0500 (EST) 
From: JASON SULLIVAN <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Phantasmal Blade (AVLD vs Power Defense) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Cc: ravanos <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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	An NPC I'm working on is decended from an extradimensional being 
and can focus his latent capacity to manipulate the mystical energies of 
his lineage to create a 'phantasmal blade' willed into existence and 
forged of spirit matter.  The blade itself does damage by disrupting the 
aura of the object, slicing through it.  Since a living object's life 
force is effected, it does BODY damage. 
	For the mechanics: 1d6+1 HKA, AVLD (versus Power Defense) is what 
I was thing of desiging it as.  If an object is AVLD does it effect a 
material object (i.e. can it 'push buttons' and such?). 
 
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 08:15:17 -0700 (PDT) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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First edition Fantasy Hero had a rule whereby if you 
made a roll of I believe it was 3-5, you got a critical hit. This 
gave you max damage. 
 
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Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 08:31:46 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Phantasmal Blade (AVLD vs Power Defense) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 09:30 AM 4/6/1998 -0500, JASON SULLIVAN wrote: 
> An NPC I'm working on is decended from an extradimensional being 
>and can focus his latent capacity to manipulate the mystical energies of 
>his lineage to create a 'phantasmal blade' willed into existence and 
>forged of spirit matter.  The blade itself does damage by disrupting the 
>aura of the object, slicing through it.  Since a living object's life 
>force is effected, it does BODY damage. 
> For the mechanics: 1d6+1 HKA, AVLD (versus Power Defense) is what 
>I was thing of desiging it as.  If an object is AVLD does it effect a 
>material object (i.e. can it 'push buttons' and such?). 
 
   I'd say yes, if it's an AVLD that does BODY (total Advantage: +2 1/2), 
it will affect solid objects, unless it has a Limitation that says it can't. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 08:53:16 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> 
Subject: RE: Critical Hits 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 09:22 AM 4/6/98 -0500, you wrote: 
>In many of our campaigns over the past 10 years we have subscribed to the  
>house rule that any "natural 3" is double effect. (That's before defenses)  
>It has the effect of an incredible shot/punch/effect.  At one point we went  
>so far to include 1.5 effect on a "natural 4."  On the flip side anyone who  
>rolls an attack roll of 18 is automatically at 1/2 DCV to the effect of a  
>stubbing of a toe/trip/itch to scratch etc.  I recognize this rule leans  
>more toward the PC's but I see no problem with that.  I can't tell you  
>where it came from since we've been using it for so long. 
 
We just use a natural 3 as either full damage or you get to choose your 
location and roll as you wish 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
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From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Comic Trivia Question 
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:10:55 -0500  
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 13 
 
 
>PS: Can you tell what my latest adpations are? (yeah, and I'm still 
>tinkering with Devil Hunter Yoko) 
 
Be sure give her very high COM! ^_^; 
DF: Looses clothes in combat? ^o^ 
Should post my COM rules sometime! 
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
	"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"  
					- Joan of Arc's .sig 
     Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Fantasy Hero Power Levels 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:07:34 -0700 (PDT) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Hello; 
 
	What are the average Fantasy Hero power levels that people use? 
 
And, 
 
	In a Fantasy Hero game set at 150 points (75+75), what power levels 
would people recommend? 
 
I'm thinking ave here and not max. 
 
	So, Spd, Dex, DC, CV, Str, Int, Ego, Weapon DC, Combat Skill levels, 
	Skill levels, what else? 
 
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Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 10:46:13 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero Power Levels 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:07 AM 4/6/1998 -0700, Brian Wong wrote: 
>Hello; 
> 
> What are the average Fantasy Hero power levels that people use? 
> 
>And, 
> 
> In a Fantasy Hero game set at 150 points (75+75), what power levels 
>would people recommend? 
> 
>I'm thinking ave here and not max. 
> 
> So, Spd, Dex, DC, CV, Str, Int, Ego, Weapon DC, Combat Skill levels, 
> Skill levels, what else? 
 
   My recommendation is that, for the most part, mid to upper heroic-level 
ranges should be used: DEX 15, SPD 3, Most characteristics at 10-13 
(fighters might have STR 15-18 and mages likewise with INT and maybe EGO), 
weapon and spell Damage Classes in the range of 6-8, beginning armor no 
more than 3 or maybe 4 points, and no more than two or maybe three Combat 
Skill Levels to start. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 11:06:15 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org, champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero Power Levels 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 10:07 AM 4/6/98 -0700, Brian Wong wrote: 
>Hello; 
> 
>	What are the average Fantasy Hero power levels that people use? 
> 
I ran a good campaign using the original FH rule at 75+25;I also used 75+75 
under the modern rules. 
 
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Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 11:06:15 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org, champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero Power Levels 
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At 10:07 AM 4/6/98 -0700, Brian Wong wrote: 
>Hello; 
> 
>	What are the average Fantasy Hero power levels that people use? 
> 
I ran a good campaign using the original FH rule at 75+25;I also used 75+75 
under the modern rules. 
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: One Use Luck 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:47:59 -0700 (PDT) 
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Hello; 
 
	I'm considering a construct in Fantasy Hero for luck deemed 
as Karma. This would be a dice of luck which is usable only once. 
 
	Gained either through actions or prayer. 
In the prayer method it would basically be a sacrifice or EP's for the luck. 
 
	What I;m working on now is a cost for this. 
 
How much seems fair for a one use dice of luck? 
 
How much for a one use auto successful point of luck? 
 
Rook ?U ?k 1b  'no giga pets were harmed in the production of this message'. 
 __ 
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html	Super Hero Links 
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/			Super Hero Roleplay 
 
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Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 11:50:28 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero Power Levels 
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>	What are the average Fantasy Hero power levels that people use? 
 
we use 50+50, makes for simple, low powered guys with lots of growing 
room... but the magic system is repaired to be more useful at lower level.   
 
>	So, Spd, Dex, DC, CV, Str, Int, Ego, Weapon DC, Combat Skill levels, 
>	Skill levels, what else? 
 
With the point levels set like this and normal characteristic maxima you 
dont really need limits... characters tend to fall within a range of 3-4 
speed and 14-18 dex for the most part... combat values similar.  Id be 
careful with martial arts thought, they are horribly effective at this power 
level.  Also, avoid Density Increase and Growth for FH spells, they are 
scary powerful 
 
see my FH notes at 
http://www.cyberis.net/~lancec/fhero.htm 
for more info and my house rules at  
http://www.cyberis.net/~lancec/hrules.htm 
if you wish to see how I do things in more detail 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero Power Levels 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:53:24 -0700 (PDT) 
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> >	What are the average Fantasy Hero power levels that people use? 
> > 
> I ran a good campaign using the original FH rule at 75+25;I also used 75+75 
> under the modern rules. 
 
	Yes but; what power level? :) 
Points has very little to do with overall power level in Hero. 
 
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Solo Adventure Online 
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:59:29 -0700 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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I've uploaded Power Point #11, Solo Hero. In this interactive web page, 
you can choose your own adventure as you learn more of the 
supervillains' plots and beat them up. 
 
For a little background on the adventure and the concept of solo 
heroing, go to http://www.haymaker.org/haym11f.html. To jump right in, 
go to http://www.haymaker.org/solo.html. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
Haymaker coordinator 
 
 
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Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 20:36:07 +0100 
From: Chris Brecken <Christopher.Brecken@sunderland.ac.uk> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: [Fwd: KBAC: Action Figures] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Thought people might be interested in this... 
 
Chris 
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To: kbac-l@mlists.com 
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:51:57 -0600 
Subject: KBAC: Action Figures 
Message-ID: <19980403.175158.3798.0.tjkenning@juno.com> 
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From: tjkenning@juno.com (T Kenning) 
Sender: owner-kbac-l@mlists.com 
Precedence: bulk 
Reply-To: kbac-l@mlists.com 
 
Check out the address below for an interview with Brent Anderson about 
the upcoming Astro City figures.  It really sounds like there's going to 
be a lot of quality involved in them.  I'm excited. 
 
http://www.mania.com/toys/features/brentanderson0403981.html 
 _____ 
/_     _/- - - - - - - - - - - - 
  /    /OM KENNING 
 /__/- - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
 
_____________________________________________________________________ 
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. 
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com 
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] 
 
 
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: One Use Luck 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:42:04 -0400 (EDT) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>  
> On Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:47:59 -0700 (PDT), Brian Wong wrote:  
>   
> >Hello;  
> >  
> >	I'm considering a construct in Fantasy Hero for luck deemed  
> >as Karma. This would be a dice of luck which is usable only once.  
> >  
> >	Gained either through actions or prayer.  
> >In the prayer method it would basically be a sacrifice or EP's for the luck.  
> >  
> >	What I;m working on now is a cost for this.  
> >  
> >How much seems fair for a one use dice of luck?  
>   
> 1d6 Luck (5 AP): One Charge (-2), Charge Does Not Recover (-2)  
>   
> 1 CP  
 
But that doesn't mean you'll get a 6 on the die roll.  :-) 
 
Try, Favor, GM, 14-.  (Like 10 points considering the power level of a 
GM? :-) 
 
  Joe 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Brian Wong" <rook@shell.infinex.com&> 
        "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 98 19:56:25  
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero Power Levels 
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On Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:07:34 -0700 (PDT), Brian Wong wrote: 
 
>What are the average Fantasy Hero power levels that people use? 
 
Beginner 30 AP, Hero 50 AP, Master 70AP, Archmage 100AP+ 
 
Note that a character like a Paladin will have a bunch of 10-20AP 
powers 
 
>In a Fantasy Hero game set at 150 points (75+75), what power levels 
>would people recommend? 
> 
>I'm thinking ave here and not max. 
> 
>So, Spd, Dex, DC, CV, Str, Int, Ego, Weapon DC, Combat Skill levels, 
>Skill levels, what else? 
 
For warriors, it's Str 13+, Spd 3, Dex 14+, Int 10, Ego 13, 4-6DC 
(Broadsword or 2H sword or battleaxe or bow), Extra Stun, extra Con, 
CVs are highly variable 30 pts in combat stuff and Talents, the rest as 
skills. Skill rolls are up to 16-. Scholar is usual. 
 
For spellcasters, it's broadly the same, except Int or Ego are 18+ and 
35-40 pts in a spell pool, with many spell-related skills. Wizards tend 
to have a high CON or END, too. Skills tend to be rather higher, and 
they invariably have Scholar and Linguist. 
 
I've been known to give out a few minor magical trinkets (5-10 CP). 
 
One thing that catches many players on the hop is non-combat skill 
levels: you can't apply them to more than one skill at the same time 
(ie a main skill and a complementary skill). I'm big on Complementary 
Skills as it keeps the power levels down.  
 
All characters have Riding, which I take to cover in combat as well, 
being appropriate for the milieu. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Brian Wong" <rook@shell.infinex.com&> 
        "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 98 20:14:51  
Subject: Re: One Use Luck 
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On Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:47:59 -0700 (PDT), Brian Wong wrote: 
 
>Hello; 
> 
>	I'm considering a construct in Fantasy Hero for luck deemed 
>as Karma. This would be a dice of luck which is usable only once. 
> 
>	Gained either through actions or prayer. 
>In the prayer method it would basically be a sacrifice or EP's for the luck. 
> 
>	What I;m working on now is a cost for this. 
> 
>How much seems fair for a one use dice of luck? 
 
1d6 Luck (5 AP): One Charge (-2), Charge Does Not Recover (-2) 
 
1 CP 
 
>How much for a one use auto successful point of luck? 
 
Didn't this appear in Dragon many years ago? 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 13:17:53 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: One Use Luck 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:47 AM 4/6/1998 -0700, Brian Wong wrote: 
>Hello; 
> 
> I'm considering a construct in Fantasy Hero for luck deemed 
>as Karma. This would be a dice of luck which is usable only once. 
> 
> Gained either through actions or prayer. 
>In the prayer method it would basically be a sacrifice or EP's for the luck. 
> 
> What I;m working on now is a cost for this. 
> 
>How much seems fair for a one use dice of luck? 
 
   Well, one charge per day (or per trip out) is a -2 Limitation; I think 
Fantasy Hero First Edition was the last place to have the additional -2 
Limitation for charges that never replenish.  That's a total of a -4 
Limitation, which yields a nice, even 1 point per 1d6 of one-use-only Luck. 
 
>How much for a one use auto successful point of luck? 
 
   4d6 is about where you get a roughly even chance of rolling at least one 
level of Luck, so I'd call that 4 points. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 16:33:10 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: ICE supplements? 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
I'm interested in picking up some of the ICE supplements before the supply 
dries up...  Is the Gold Rush Games site the place to order these?  I 
quickly glanced at the Hero Games page and didn't see anything about 
ordering products (they ought to at least have a link to GRG's product 
listing, especially for Hero Plus). 
 
I'm curious...a lot of "stock" information for a superhero RPG (how to deal 
with mutants, how to handle alien invasions, etc) is disappearing along 
with the ICE supplements, and this will create a big hole in future 
support.  Are new books going to appear that cover the same topics as some 
of the ICE supplements, or will city books such as San Angelo try to cover 
all these angles a little, or are new players doomed to be without some of 
these invaluable books?  Heck, I don't even think there's a book of 
villains (such as Classic Enemies) that is still in print.... 
 
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Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 13:42:12 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Haymaker 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:59 AM 4/6/1998 -0700, you wrote: 
> 
>I've uploaded Power Point #11, Solo Hero. In this interactive web page, 
>you can choose your own adventure as you learn more of the 
>supervillains' plots and beat them up. 
> 
>For a little background on the adventure and the concept of solo 
>heroing, go to http://www.haymaker.org/haym11f.html. To jump right in, 
>go to http://www.haymaker.org/solo.html. 
 
   I want to check this out as soon as I'm able. 
   I have something ready to go for Haymaker #16; I just need to know what 
I'd need to do to submit. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:44:44 -0500 (CDT) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: One Use Luck 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> > >How much seems fair for a one use dice of luck?  
> >   
> > 1d6 Luck (5 AP): One Charge (-2), Charge Does Not Recover (-2)  
> >   
> > 1 CP  
>  
> But that doesn't mean you'll get a 6 on the die roll.  :-) 
>  
> Try, Favor, GM, 14-.  (Like 10 points considering the power level of a 
> GM? :-) 
>  
 
I always had a problem with the Luck power.  It seemed too be both too open 
to GM interpretation / storytelling ability  
and too limited to your actual roll on the die.   
In my opinion, it seems likely that a 'lucky' character that had 3D6 of 
luck might never roll a 6 at the appropriate time.  OTOH, I would say that 
the same character could always find a nice parking space, regardless of 
whether or not any 6's were rolled.  I would prefer luck to be used more 
as it is in other games, where you could add or subtract points to your die 
roll. Or maybe reroll your dice and take the better of the two rolls. 
 
Curt 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 06 Apr 1998 16:46:57 -0400 
Lines: 28 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
BG>    Here's an idea for critical hits that I thought up a couple of weeks 
BG> ago. 
 
No. 
 
No critical hits in Champions, unless you want dead characters all over the 
place.  Seriously, reasonable characters with defenses that can deal with 
12DC attacks will *DIE*, especially if Killing Attacks are being used. 
Very un4-colorish. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 06 Apr 1998 16:49:35 -0400 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
BG>    TUM has a nice chart for using Dispel BOECV for affecting the mind, 
 
Excuse me, but what the fuck?  Arbitrarilly assigning active point values 
to memories?  I *KNEW* there was a reason I avoided the "ultimate" books on 
general principle.  That is just too much. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Date: 06 Apr 1998 16:50:10 -0400 
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Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
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>>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes: 
 
RAW> A question came up last night.  How, other than Transform would you 
RAW> point up a Memory Eraser? 
 
You have a power that achieves the desired effect.  Stop looking for 
another one. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
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Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 17:02:08 -0400 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> 
Subject: Re: [Fwd: KBAC: Action Figures] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
>Check out the address below for an interview with Brent Anderson about 
>the upcoming Astro City figures.  It really sounds like there's going to 
>be a lot of quality involved in them.  I'm excited. 
> 
 
Are we talking miniatures, or G.I.Joe type stuff? 
 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Phantasmal Blade (AVLD vs Power Defense) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 06 Apr 1998 17:13:24 -0400 
Lines: 44 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
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>>>>> "JS" == JASON SULLIVAN <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu> writes: 
 
JS> 	An NPC I'm working on is decended from an extradimensional being 
JS> and can focus his latent capacity to manipulate the mystical energies 
JS> of his lineage to create a 'phantasmal blade' willed into existence and 
JS> forged of spirit matter.  The blade itself does damage by disrupting 
JS> the aura of the object, slicing through it.  Since a living object's 
JS> life force is effected, it does BODY damage. 
 
If you assume that the "spirit body" has something resembling a physical 
existance on its native plane, you also have to consider what it would use 
for defenses.  In other words, you as the GM, must first define exactly 
what an aura is, and what its capabilities are.  Once you do that, you 
should have a good idea of what can affect it. 
 
My own idea on nature of the aura/astral body is that it is a manifestation 
of belief and will in a coresident plane.  Things like Strength and Energy 
Defense do not have true 1:1 correspondence, one's knowledge of oneself 
carries over.  For most campaigns, this means that whatever you can (or 
cannot) do in the physical world you can (or cannot) do in the astral 
world.  If your physical world defenses can stop a bullet, your astral 
body's defenses can stop the astral aspect of the same bullet. 
 
That being said, I would stick with a basic, if largish, HKA, and Affects 
Desolid. 
 
YMMV. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
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Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 14:18:12 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: Phantasmal Blade (AVLD vs Power Defense) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:18 PM 4/6/98 -0500, you wrote: 
>	What page is the does BODY advantage on?  I thought it was by 
>GM approval with no point cost given. 
 
Iit is, but its a general house rule (and used in the Bestiary) to be a +1 
advantage, almost everyone uses it 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
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Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 16:18:39 -0500 (EST) 
From: JASON SULLIVAN <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Re: Phantasmal Blade (AVLD vs Power Defense) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@sysabend.org" 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
	What page is the does BODY advantage on?  I thought it was by 
GM approval with no point cost given. 
 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 14:46:35 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Phantasmal Blade (AVLD vs Power Defense) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:18 PM 4/6/1998 -0500, JASON SULLIVAN wrote: 
> What page is the does BODY advantage on?  I thought it was by 
>GM approval with no point cost given. 
 
   It's not in the HSR, but has appeared in TUM and a couple of Third 
Edition supplements.  In TUM, it was suggested as being mainly applicable 
to Ego Attack, or attacks bought BOECV; in Gadgets!, it was applied to any 
Power bought AVLD.  I think it's been largely accepted as an Advantage that 
can be applied to any of those, plus NND attacks. 
   (I personally like the idea of expanding its scope slightly, like 
allowing an EB AVLD vs Sight Flash to do BODY damage that counts as a Flash 
vs Sight.) 
   It's basically given as a +1 Advantage to do BODY damage. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 14:53:39 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:46 PM 4/6/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
> 
>BG>    Here's an idea for critical hits that I thought up a couple of weeks 
>BG> ago. 
> 
>No. 
> 
>No critical hits in Champions, unless you want dead characters all over the 
>place.  Seriously, reasonable characters with defenses that can deal with 
>12DC attacks will *DIE*, especially if Killing Attacks are being used. 
>Very un4-colorish. 
 
   You are aware, aren't you, that there's more to the Hero System than 
just four-color, 12 Damage Class Champions? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 18:35:21 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: ICE supplements? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< I'm interested in picking up some of the ICE supplements before the supply 
dries up...  Is the Gold Rush Games site the place to order these? >> 
 
  You can order the books directly from us, from Hero games, or through your 
local retailer. Everything we have is still available through distributors 
and, of course, retailers. 
 
<< (they ought to at least have a link to GRG's product listing, especially 
for Hero Plus). >> 
 
  Just to clarify, all of the Hero Plus products must be ordered from Hero 
Games. We do not stock the Hero Plus products; we only carry the old ICE books 
and of course our licensed Hero System (4th Ed) paper books. 
 
<< Are new books going to appear that cover the same topics as some of the ICE 
supplements, or will city books such as San Angelo try to cover all these 
angles a little, or are new players doomed to be without some of these 
invaluable books? >> 
 
  Would we doom players to be without these types of books? ;) I think you'll 
be seeing some interesting stuff covering a variety of topics in Champions. 
They will be largely tailored for the San Angelo setting, but they will be 
easily adaptable to any superhero setting. Some of the topics/books we've 
planned include "Mytsic San Angelo" (working title), "Enemies Incarcerated" 
(working title), "Denizens of San Angelo" (sort of a Normals Unbound for San 
Angelo), and a lot, lot more. Once we get the ball rolling on the San Angelo 
line there will be a good supply of books coming out. 
 
<< Heck, I don't even think there's a book of villains (such as Classic 
Enemies) that is still in print.... >> 
 
  On the contrary. We still have all of the following Enemies books in print 
and available for purchase: 
 
	HG422	1-55806-173-8	Hi Tech Enemies	13.00 
	HG427	1-55806-183-5	Allies	13.00 
	HG429		Creatures of the Night	13.00 
	HG431	1-55806-197-5	Underworld Enemies	13.00 
	HG433	1-55806-206-8	Murderer's Row	13.00 
	HG439	1-55806-227-0	Enemies For Hire	15.00 
	HG440	1-55806-230-0	Enemies Assemble!	15.00 
	HG442	1-55806-248-3	Watchers of the Dragon	20.00 
 
  Of course, these and other books are listed on our web site. And while 
you're there, be sure to check out the San Angelo Times Online! 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
  http://members.aol.com/goldrushg 
 
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Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 15:51:51 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:49 PM 4/6/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
> 
>BG>    TUM has a nice chart for using Dispel BOECV for affecting the mind, 
> 
>Excuse me, but what the f... 
 
   Well, that was worthless. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 18:53:28 -0400 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Joe Claffey Jr." <jrc@mail1.nai.net> 
Subject: Re: Fantasy Hero Power Levels 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>Hello; 
> 
>	What are the average Fantasy Hero power levels that people use? 
 
 It's been my experience that 100+50 will allow characters that are 
"legendary" in scale. Bar fights are not a problem, even for the weakest 
member of the party. 
 
 50+50 (or 75+25) will create much lower-powered heroes. They'll still be 
able to wipe the floor with a normal or two, but now the sergeants of the 
guard will be a threat, instead of only the captain. The characters will 
not be able to defeat every opponent with force alone. 
 
 25+25 (or whatever adds up to 50 points) makes for a very interesting 
game. Characters at this level tend to not save the world very often. :-) 
They will often have to think their way around more powerful opposition. 
 
>	In a Fantasy Hero game set at 150 points (75+75), what power levels 
>would people recommend? 
> 
>I'm thinking ave here and not max. 
> 
>	So, Spd, Dex, DC, CV, Str, Int, Ego, Weapon DC, Combat Skill levels, 
>	Skill levels, what else? 
 
 SPD of 3 or 4. 
 DEX 14-21 
 6-8 DC 
 CV 4-7 
 Normal Chacteristic Maxima tends to keep most stats under 25, with 
non-signature stats well under 20. 
 2-3 skill levels or combat skill levels. 
 
 As I said above, you're going to get a bunch of legends. The opposition 
should be similarly high-powered. 
 
 
  Joe Claffey               | "In the end, everything is a gag." 
  jrc@ct1.nai.net           |               - Charlie Chaplin 
 
 
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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:54:03 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Phantasmal Blade (AVLD vs Power Defense) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> 	What page is the does BODY advantage on?  I thought it was by 
> GM approval with no point cost given. 
 
	It's appeared in (I think) AC and one of the Almanacs as 
"official" errata. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:57:10 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> BG>    TUM has a nice chart for using Dispel BOECV for affecting the mind, 
> 
> Excuse me, but what the fuck?  Arbitrarilly assigning active point values 
> to memories?  I *KNEW* there was a reason I avoided the "ultimate" books on 
> general principle.  That is just too much. 
 
	It seems Rat doesn't like anything useful to cross his path.  As 
is, I'd quibble on what makes up a major or minor memory, but this seems 
like a very strong idea.  And considering that memories can be manipulated 
with other mental powers, it makes sense that they have some sort of 
rating in the Hero system.  Everything else does, so why not memories? 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 19:31:09 EDT 
To: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  ICE supplements? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
In a message dated 4/6/98 1:49:13 PM, DBStallard@compuserve.com wrote: 
 
<<I'm interested in picking up some of the ICE supplements before the supply 
 
dries up...  Is the Gold Rush Games site the place to order these?  I 
 
quickly glanced at the Hero Games page and didn't see anything about 
 
ordering products (they ought to at least have a link to GRG's product 
 
listing, especially for Hero Plus).>> 
 
There's a whole section on ordering products... we're in the midst of a site 
redesign, so maybe you missed it under all the construction (see Products). 
 
 
 
<<I'm curious...a lot of "stock" information for a superhero RPG (how to deal 
 
with mutants, how to handle alien invasions, etc) is disappearing along 
 
with the ICE supplements, and this will create a big hole in future 
 
support.  Are new books going to appear that cover the same topics as some 
 
of the ICE supplements, or will city books such as San Angelo try to cover 
 
all these angles a little, or are new players doomed to be without some of 
 
these invaluable books?  Heck, I don't even think there's a book of 
 
villains (such as Classic Enemies) that is still in print....>> 
 
We still have copies of almost all of the books available. As they go out of 
print, we're converting them to electronic format. So Classic Enemies is still 
available, only now in electronic format (and at a significant savings, too, 
since it's only $10 in electronic format). 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games  
 
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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:02:23 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Transformation Attacks (5ED)? 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Hm...some time ago, I was considering writing up transform after the  
style of a mental power, and I finally completed it.  The result is somewhat 
better defined than a standard Hero transform, and hopefully not completely 
imbalanced; I'm curious what people think. 
 
Transform: 5 pts/1d6, minimum cost 10 pts. 
    Transform allows changing the powers or appearance of any target.  In 
order to transform someone, simply choose an effect, roll effect, then 
subtract power defense; this is the total result.  You will generally need 
to roll a total of CON + some constant to entirely transform someone 
(note: I choose CON rather than the historical BOD because it is less 
likely to be totally unbalanced.  Assume inanimate objects have con equal 
to twice their body; if desired, use 2xBOD instead of con for all effects).  
 
    Inobvious special case: powers 'usable against others' may be implemented 
with transform -- simply give them a power, and a physical limitation to 
reflect the fact that they must use it.  Note that powers which are 
utterly disabling (such as teleporting someone to another dimension) are 
considered to be +30; base the frequency of the physlim on how commonly 
the power will be an annoyance while near the person with the power.  As 
a rule, an instant effect which causes loss of a phase can be considered 
minor, loss of a turn is major, anything more is total. 
 
To determine the result required for any transformation, decide how the 
transform hurts the target, and compare with the following table: 
Con +0  Effect is strictly beneficial. 
Con +5  Assign a -1/4 limitation to any power.  Base frequency on frequency 
        in the vicinity of the person whose transform it is -- 'not in intense 
        magnetic fields' is _not_ -1/4 if you can generate intense magnetic 
        fields.  Any limitation which doesn't make sense should be disallowed; 
        in addition, turning powers into a universal focus or anything similar 
        should be disallowed. 
    +5  double the value of the limitation given. 
Con +20 Remove any power. 
Con +5  -1 to any roll, or -10AP to any ability; can be taken more than once. 
Con +30 Totally change target; remove any number of powers. 
Con +X  Any disadvantage, value equal to X; psych lims may not be 'absolute'. 
        You may take 'distinctive features' at an appropriate level for free. 
    +5  -1 to EGO rolls to resist psychlims.  This may be taken after the 
effect 
        is rolled. 
+5      Double the number of effects (from the above list); this is +5 
        relative to the most expensive desired effect.  Optionally, double 
        the total value of the +X (thus, if you have a +20 effect, you can 
        get a +10 and two +5s for only one doubling). 
Con +30 Totally disable target. 
 
Adding powers: it is possible to use transform to give people powers; no power 
    given can have more active points than the total on your transformation 
    result; in addition, the total real point value of the transform 
    (including disads) cannot exceed your roll; the total for all 'positive' 
    effects cannot exceed 2x your roll.  If the target already possesses 
    the desired power, the transform does not add.  In the case of transform 
    for stats, assume the active point value of a stat is equal to its cost. 
    Optionally, you may allow powers exceeding the active limit, as long 
    as their real point value is not greater than _half_ the limit. 
Complete Transformation (equivalent to 'add multiform'): you can simply assign 
    someone a form, rather than modifying their form; assume that the base 
    value for the form (excluding disads) is equal to twice your roll, the 
    total (including disads) cannot exceed 5x your roll.  What powers may be 
    given is otherwise limited as above. 
 
*Advantage*: cumulative transform, +1/2.  A cumulative transform can 
_gradually_ overwhelm a target who is too strong to be immediately 
transformed.  In case of a cumulative transform, keep track of the total 
effect on the transformation; add _half_ of the previous total to your 
roll; if the previous total is more than double your roll, there is no 
effect.  Note that a cumulative transform is capable of having _partial_ 
effect -- for example, if you want to turn someone to stone (Con+30) 
but only have Con+10 points, you can give them a 10 pt physical limitation 
appropriate to being partially turned to stone. 
 
Examples: 
Popper has a multipower of teleport powers (60 pts) and wants to be able 
to teleport people about, so he buys transform( teleport, as directed by 
Popper; cannot be teleported into solid objects ).  The GM decides that 
on average this will remove someone for about a phase, so it requires 
Con+15 to use; he buys it at 12d6, and hits ogre (28 con) with it.  If 
he rolls 43+ on 12d6, ogre will be teleported whereever popper chooses, 
assuming it is withing 21" of where he previously was.  If this were a 
noncombat teleport, this would probably be increased to be avg 1 turn 
removal (requiring +20), but he could get ogre to noncom away with 40 
active points (10" x32, or 320"). 
 
Medusa has the power 'transform to stone, 12d6, cumulative'; this is a 
'totally disabling' effect (+30); once again, the target is ogre.  On 
the first try, she rolls 41, which is Con+13; as this is a cumulative 
transform, she can do a partial effect; she goes with -6 DEX (20 AP) 
to represent being partially made of stone.  On the second try, she 
rolls 43; adding (41/2) she gets a total of 63, or Con+25, enough to 
get ogre almost solid; we call this -12 dex (+20), 2x# of effects(+5), 
solid to the waist (can only move by hopping or dragging along by arms). 
On the third try, she rolls 40; adding 32, she exceeds the 68 she needs 
and Ogre is turned to solid stone. 
 
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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:24:11 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Comic triva question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 6 Apr 1998, SteveL1979 wrote: 
 
> In a message dated 98-04-06 07:44:34 EDT, you write: 
>  
> << > Do you have access to the excellent Watchmen sourcebook published for  
>  > DC Heroes? A LOT of details that never made it into the comics, esp.  
>  > about the Minutemen. All approved by Moore, IIRC. 
>   
>  Yes.  I have the two Watchmen adventures put out for DC Heroes, as well as 
>  the AC conversion issue. >> 
>  
>   There was also a specific WATCHMEN *sourcebook* in addition to the two 
> scenarios; it contains a lot of useful info that would help you write up the 
> characters in Hero System stats. 
 
Well crap, I don't own that one...  And it's out of print too...  Uh.. 
anyone have a copy they can lend me?  I'll mail it back when I'm done... 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:29:28 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Comic Trivia Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 6 Apr 1998, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA wrote: 
 
> >PS: Can you tell what my latest adpations are? (yeah, and I'm still 
> >tinkering with Devil Hunter Yoko) 
>  
> Be sure give her very high COM! ^_^; 
 
I was thinking 16 in everyday clothing, 20 in costume. 
 
> DF: Looses clothes in combat? ^o^ 
 
Heh, I was thinking 3 DEF armor defined as 'clothes get cut, but not her' 
I wonder if I can get away with extra DCV levels defined as 'opponet 
wastes time watch her breasts bounce' (-1 only works on men) ^_^ 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 17:42:09 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re:  ICE supplements? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 07:31 PM 4/6/1998 EDT, Hero Games wrote: 
>We still have copies of almost all of the books available. As they go out of 
>print, we're converting them to electronic format. So Classic Enemies is 
still 
>available, only now in electronic format (and at a significant savings, too, 
>since it's only $10 in electronic format). 
 
   And the one currently available via Hero Plus is the same text, art, 
etc., that I currently have in my print copy, and not an update, right? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 20:04:37 -0500 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Organization: Red Bow Antiques 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: One Use Luck 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
I have been playing with the idea of something like this for a long 
time. I am a fan of the games where you can use Karma points or 
experience to change a die roll. 
	I was thinking of allowing my players to change any die roll effecting 
their character by spending experience points. The basic rule would be 
that spending one experience would be a +1 or -1 to the roll tht effects 
your character. 
	Of course, since I usually award 3-4 experience per adventure and don't 
want my characters to stagnate spending all points on dice rolls I was 
thinking of raising my average experience award up to 4-6. 
 	What do you think? 
 
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Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 21:34:35 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re:  ICE supplements? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>We still have copies of almost all of the books available. As they go out of 
>print, we're converting them to electronic format. So Classic Enemies is 
still 
>available, only now in electronic format (and at a significant savings, too, 
>since it's only $10 in electronic format). 
> 
>-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games  
 
As has been pointed out by others on the list, it's not a net savings if 
you actually print the book out; paper may not cost much, but I can go 
through a whole inkjet cartridge printing out a book of any size, at $25+ 
per cartridge. 
 
Actually, though, what I wanted to ask about was availability.  You said 
supplements were being converted to electronic format "as they go out of 
print".  How much of a delay is there, and what kind of backlog currently 
exists...also, are there out-of-print books that you don't plan to 
"resurrect" electronically (wow...shades of Dr. Frankenstein)? 
 
Damon 
 
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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 23:20:15 -0400 (EDT) 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Robert A. West wrote: 
>How, other than Transform would you point up a Memory Eraser? 
> 
>IMO, erasing a memory, no matter how brief, is more than Cosmetic.  A Major 
Transform  
>can erase all memories and replace them with completely different ones.   
>This leaves Minor Transform to do all the work in the middle.  Yecchh! 
> 
>I did think about a Mind Control bought Uncontrolled as a Continuing  
>Charge of duration 25 years(+1 1/2 if a single charge) to prevent the EGO  
>roll from improving over time. 
 
 
You don't want to use Transform because you're uncomfortable with applying 
Cosmetic, Minor, or Major status to memories but will buy Mind Control with 
a 25-year continuing charge??  That's a pretty unwieldy construction to me, 
and Transform (which turns princes into frogs, stones into bread, and 
corpses into zombies) seems perfectly suited to changing a sane person 
insane or one persone into an identical person minus a few memories. 
Besides I wouldn't want to encourage players to buy 25-year continuing 
charges for their mentalists's powers. . . .  (When do you get to make your 
EGO Rolls to beak free?) 
 
 
 
 
 
grant 
 
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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 23:20:18 -0400 (EDT) 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net> 
Subject: HERO Games in Phoenix 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
I may very well be moving to the Phoenix area for graduate school at Arizona 
State.  Does anyone know of any HERO Games being played down there? 
 
 
 
I enjoy role-playing, but I'm sure I won't have time to run a game of my 
own, and I play HERO-system exclusively.  (Hey, once I realized I can build 
the character I want and everything's balanced, why should I play anything 
else?) 
 
 
 
 
grant 
 
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Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 23:43:45 -0400 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 02:53 PM 4/6/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>At 04:46 PM 4/6/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>No critical hits in Champions, unless you want dead characters all over the 
>>place.  Seriously, reasonable characters with defenses that can deal with 
>>12DC attacks will *DIE*, especially if Killing Attacks are being used. 
>>Very un4-colorish. 
> 
>   You are aware, aren't you, that there's more to the Hero System than 
>just four-color, 12 Damage Class Champions? 
 
Critical hits would be silly in Champions and it would be silly in any 
other Hero genre.  If you want combat to be more deadly use the hit 
location, wounding,  disabling, and bleeding rules. 
 
If you absolutely have to have Critical hits, do not double damage.  Do max 
damage.  Or do add 1 STUN per die, or increase the STUN multiple by 1 for KAs. 
 
But seriously, in what genre are "critical hits" appropriate?  Street level 
games should use hit locations, and if you don't think those rules are 
deadly enough, you aren't using them correctly. 
 
  Joe 
 
 
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Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 21:15:55 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:43 PM 4/6/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>At 02:53 PM 4/6/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>At 04:46 PM 4/6/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>>No critical hits in Champions, unless you want dead characters all over the 
>>>place.  Seriously, reasonable characters with defenses that can deal with 
>>>12DC attacks will *DIE*, especially if Killing Attacks are being used. 
>>>Very un4-colorish. 
>> 
>>   You are aware, aren't you, that there's more to the Hero System than 
>>just four-color, 12 Damage Class Champions? 
> 
>Critical hits would be silly in Champions and it would be silly in any 
>other Hero genre.  If you want combat to be more deadly use the hit 
>location, wounding,  disabling, and bleeding rules. 
 
   Actually it's not the genre that should dictate whether Critical Hits 
are used at all.  It really has little or nothing to do with it. 
   Besides, Rat's comments have little to do with the proposal I forwarded 
(unless he also thinks that Armor Piercing and normal Find Weakness are too 
deadly for a "four-color" game).  He just asummed (as you apparently did, 
for that matter) that "Critical Hit" = "Deadly Hit" without even giving the 
proposal much attention or the matter much thought.  *That* is what's 
really silly.  (Either that, or Walter Matthau in a pink bunny suit; take 
your pick.) 
 
>If you absolutely have to have Critical hits, do not double damage.  Do max 
>damage.  Or do add 1 STUN per die, or increase the STUN multiple by 1 for 
KAs. 
 
   Did you even read the post I sent out?  I said nothing about doing 
double damage, and in fact I don't particularly like that method.  That 
STUN increase idea you gave (and I assume it was an off-the-cuff idea) 
isn't much better.  The max damage idea is the "traditional" method in hero 
-- at least, it's the only one I've seen before I started this discussion. 
I was just giving another idea. 
 
>But seriously, in what genre are "critical hits" appropriate?  Street level 
>games should use hit locations, and if you don't think those rules are 
>deadly enough, you aren't using them correctly. 
 
   I was specifically trying to come up with a good "critical hit" system 
that *wouldn't* be horribly deadly.  For that matter, I wasn't really 
trying to come up with a critical hit system at all; I was trying to come 
up with an implementation for "accidental Find Weakness."  If you can come 
up with a better way of implementing it, I'm open to suggestions. 
   To my mind, a "critical hit" is just that lucky or outstanding shot that 
did considerably better than usual.  But max damage and all the other 
methods just seemed a little forced.  It wasn't until I stumbled on the 
thought of using it for my Find Weakness idea that it seemed to fall into 
place. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 01:50:41 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> As I have said before when the topic of Transform comes up, it does 
> not have enough granularity IMHO.  Transform is, by its own writeup, the 
> power of last resort, Major Transform is too cheap for some of its 
> uses and the power is much-overused.  For example, the HSR/BBB suggests 
 
	Huh?  How can something priced higher than killing someone be 
overpriced?  If you can kill someone, you can change them.  The logic 
makes sense. 
 
> buying a blinding acid spray as Major Transform.  I would prefer to buy 
> it as Drain Normal Sight with a long fade time. 
 
	And how exactly does a non-heal-able blindness get better? 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 00:37:55 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Eric Chauvin <calicajun@prtcl.com> 
Subject: Re: One Use Luck 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:47 AM 4/6/98 -0700, you wrote: 
>Hello; 
> 
>	I'm considering a construct in Fantasy Hero for luck deemed 
>as Karma. This would be a dice of luck which is usable only once. 
> 
>	Gained either through actions or prayer. 
>In the prayer method it would basically be a sacrifice or EP's for the luck. 
> 
>	What I;m working on now is a cost for this. 
> 
>How much seems fair for a one use dice of luck? 
> 
>How much for a one use auto successful point of luck? 
> 
>Rook ?U ?k 1b  'no giga pets were harmed in the production of this message'. 
> __ 
>/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html	Super Hero Links 
>\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/			Super Hero Roleplay 
> 
In our group we use an experience point called a "Task Point". 
It is essentially a G.M./Player tool used to help dramatize the story. 
A task point is not used to change a die roll, but instead to perform that 
action that a HERO would do, but would probably (by game mechanics or sheer 
logic) end up with a characters demise. 
An example of this was a campaign in which a villain fell off a 3000ft 
cliff into an uncontrolled dive & our hero (subject to a 20pt. Code Vs. 
Killing & a 20pt. Chivalrous) dove off the cliff after him. He spent a task 
point to save the villain & survive himself. He hurt for a while but it 
made for a great story piece & really helped flesh out a part of his 
character. By logic they both would have died, but with a task point he 
became the hero we always dream of creating. 
____________________________ 
GET-EM!!! THAT'S THE PLAN?!? 
--------------------------------------------- 
Eric Chauvin 
calicajun@prtcl.com 
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 01:24:41 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Phantasmal Blade (AVLD vs Power Defense) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
JASON SULLIVAN wrote: 
>  
> I was thing of desiging it as.  If an object is AVLD does it effect a 
> material object (i.e. can it 'push buttons' and such?). 
 
I have decided that, in my campaign and provided that there is an  
appropriate special effect, STUN-only attacks can be used to exert small  
amounts of force, such as pushing buttons.  IMHO, the small amount of  
force required to push a button is far less than the amount required to  
do 1/10 of killing a normal.  A phantasmal blade may fall into that  
category.  If you don't want to go that route, just buy a minimum buy of  
stretching or TK linked to the blade. 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 01:33:25 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>  
> >>>>> "RAW" == Robert A West <robtwest@erols.com> writes: 
>  
> RAW> A question came up last night.  How, other than Transform would you 
> RAW> point up a Memory Eraser? 
>  
> You have a power that achieves the desired effect.  Stop looking for 
> another one. 
 
Per the description of Transform, it cannot be used to duplicate effects  
achievable by other powers; therefore, if there is another way to do it  
that is even halfway reasonable, Transform is not an option. 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 02:16:40 -0700 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Organization: Satan's Children 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Comic Trivia Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> > DF: Looses clothes in combat? ^o^ 
>  
> Heh, I was thinking 3 DEF armor defined as 'clothes get cut, but not her' 
> I wonder if I can get away with extra DCV levels defined as 'opponet 
> wastes time watch her breasts bounce' (-1 only works on men) ^_^ 
 
   Or lesbians.... 
 
 
--  
   "SPOOOOOOOONN!!" 
 
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 02:35:55 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Grant Enfield wrote: 
>  
> Robert A. West wrote: 
> >How, other than Transform would you point up a Memory Eraser? 
> > 
> >IMO, erasing a memory, no matter how brief, is more than Cosmetic.  A Major 
> Transform 
> >can erase all memories and replace them with completely different ones. 
> >This leaves Minor Transform to do all the work in the middle.  Yecchh! 
> > 
> >I did think about a Mind Control bought Uncontrolled as a Continuing 
> >Charge of duration 25 years(+1 1/2 if a single charge) to prevent the EGO 
> >roll from improving over time. 
>  
> You don't want to use Transform because you're uncomfortable with applying 
> Cosmetic, Minor, or Major status to memories but will buy Mind Control with 
> a 25-year continuing charge??  That's a pretty unwieldy construction to me, 
 
I feel that Transform is a fundamentally broken power as currently  
written, and prefer to avoid it if at all possible.  In any event, I said  
I *thought about* doing it that way, not that I intend to implement it  
that way. 
 
> and Transform (which turns princes into frogs, stones into bread, and 
> corpses into zombies) seems perfectly suited to changing a sane person 
> insane or one persone into an identical person minus a few memories. 
 
As I have said before when the topic of Transform comes up, it does  
not have enough granularity IMHO.  Transform is, by its own writeup, the  
power of last resort, Major Transform is too cheap for some of its  
uses and the power is much-overused.  For example, the HSR/BBB suggests  
buying a blinding acid spray as Major Transform.  I would prefer to buy  
it as Drain Normal Sight with a long fade time. 
 
 
> Besides I wouldn't want to encourage players to buy 25-year continuing 
> charges for their mentalists's powers. . . .  (When do you get to make your 
> EGO Rolls to beak free?) 
>  
> grant 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 05:52:43 -0500 (CDT) 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org, champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Subject: Re: Comic Trivia Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 02:16 AM 4/7/98 -0700, Captain Spith wrote: 
>> > DF: Looses clothes in combat? ^o^ 
>>  
>> Heh, I was thinking 3 DEF armor defined as 'clothes get cut, but not her' 
>> I wonder if I can get away with extra DCV levels defined as 'opponet 
>> wastes time watch her breasts bounce' (-1 only works on men) ^_^ 
> 
>   Or lesbians.... 
 
Wow... talk about a thread that you can't come into the middle of... 
 
But actually I have a villain I have used who has a level with DCV though a 
focus that have the limitation that they don't work vs women.  The 
description is her costume is so sexy men are distracted.  I figure one was 
the most you could justify.  
 
I am glad none of my players are on this list... 
 
Michael 
Rising Force Publications 
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist recently updated web site... 
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
"You have never lived until you have almost died.  
And for those who fight for it, 
life has a flavor the protected never know"  
- anonymous 
 
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 07:02:56 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Comic Trivia Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 7 Apr 1998, Captain Spith wrote: 
 
> > > DF: Looses clothes in combat? ^o^ 
> >  
> > Heh, I was thinking 3 DEF armor defined as 'clothes get cut, but not her' 
> > I wonder if I can get away with extra DCV levels defined as 'opponet 
> > wastes time watch her breasts bounce' (-1 only works on men) ^_^ 
>  
>    Or lesbians.... 
 
Ahem... I wasn't going to go there... 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: One Use Luck 
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 06:57:33 -0700 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>I was thinking of allowing my players to change any die roll effecting 
>their character by spending experience points. The basic rule would 
>be that spending one experience would be a +1 or -1 to the roll that 
>effects your character. 
 
I've done this before, but the stakes were upped to +/-5 with a skill 
roll or a to-hit roll, or +10 active points onto a power. It worked out 
pretty well. Even with this rule, though, only one player ever burned 
his EPs. The others were too greedy about improving their stats & 
skills. 
 
But then, I usually gave out 1-3 EPs per game. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
mattingly@bigfoot.com 
 
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:11:52 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Underworld Enemies? 
To: "INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Can somebody tell me what's in this book?  Is it stats for normals who are 
gangsters, etc, or is it stats for supervillains who work for the mob?  Was 
this published as a Dark Champions supplement, or is it a "generic" 
Champions supplement? 
 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: One Use Luck 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-9,12-14 
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts) 
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 10:43:57 EDT 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>In our group we use an experience point called a "Task Point". 
>It is essentially a G.M./Player tool used to help dramatize the story. 
>A task point is not used to change a die roll, but instead to perform  
>that 
>action that a HERO would do, but would probably (by game mechanics or  
>sheer 
>logic) end up with a characters demise. 
 
<example snipped> 
 
This sounds like something I could use in my games -- do you give task 
points in addition to XP, or does the player simply cross off an XP and 
call it a task point? 
 
Leah 
 
_____________________________________________________________________ 
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. 
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com 
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] 
 
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From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Comic Trivia Question 
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:55:04 -0500  
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>> >PS: Can you tell what my latest adpations are? (yeah, and I'm still 
>> >tinkering with Devil Hunter Yoko) 
>>  
>> Be sure give her very high COM! ^_^; 
 
>I was thinking 16 in everyday clothing, 20 in costume. 
 
Puma tend to give anime babes a high COM! 
There're so cute! 
 
>> DF: Looses clothes in combat? ^o^ 
 
>Heh, I was thinking 3 DEF armor defined as 'clothes get cut, but not 
her' 
>I wonder if I can get away with extra DCV levels defined as 'opponet 
>wastes time watch her breasts bounce' (-1 only works on men) ^_^ 
 
Just use my COM rules, a COM attack can have that sort of effect! 
Puma will dig them out and post them! 
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
	"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"  
					- Joan of Arc's .sig 
     Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
 
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Subject: Re: Is Transform too Cheap? (Was: Erasing Memories) 
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:01:50 -0400 
x-sender: dfair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <dfair@sdslink.com> 
To: "Hero Games" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On 4/7/98 11:26 AM Robert A. West (robtwest@erols.com) Said: 
 
>> > power of last resort, Major Transform is too cheap for some of its 
>> > uses and the power is much-overused.  For example, the HSR/BBB suggests 
>>  
>>         Huh?  How can something priced higher than killing someone be 
>> overpriced?  If you can kill someone, you can change them.  The logic 
>> makes sense. 
> 
>*Higher* than killing someone?  Not bloody likely.  Compare 
> 
>21	3D6 Cumulative Major Transform 
>20	3D6+1 RKA vs PD. 
 
Okay, now lets try it with the costs from the BBB 
67   3d6 Cumulative Major Transform 
67   4 1/2d6 RKA vs PD (some would cost this at 70) 
 
>In a DC-12 campaign, typical starting rPD averages 10, starting Power  
>Defense is zero and starting BODY is 11.  The transform averages 10.5 per  
>hit: two or three hits to transform someone.  The RKA averages 3.5 per  
>hit: six or seven hits to kill someone. 
> 
God only knows where these typicals come from, but we can use them  
anyway.  
 
The transform will roll an average 10.5 for each attack, and take 3 hits  
of average rolls to transform the target. 
 
The RKA will roll an average 15.75 body for each attack, and after the  
DEF of 10, do 5.75 body and (again, average STUNx of 2.67 makes it 42) 32  
STUN. This is likely to Stun some opponents, and should even knock  
normals out with one hit. It will take one more average hit to put them  
at the "Bleeding to death, will die without immediate help" stage, and  
then 2 more hits to make them really die. 
 
So 3 average hits vs 4. Sounds close to me when you factor in that 1-3 of  
those 4 attacks will be against a stunned, knocked out or dying target. 
 
>A more direct comparison would be: 
> 
>35	3D6 RKA AVLD/Power Defense(+1 1/2) Does BODY(+1) No STUN(-1/2) 
 
The true cost of which is 157 active, 105 real. 
This would not be allowed in most campaigns. 
 
>The Transform/KA comparison is a false one, because KAs go against rPD,  
>which is common and tends to be large, while Transforms go against Power  
>Defense, which is uncommon and tends to be small.  Having the most major  
>transforms be 25/die (37/die if cumulative) would seem about right to me. 
 
<sarcasm> 
Sure, all normals in my worlds have a bare minimum of 5 rPD. We can't let  
the heroes have anything the general public can't have, can we. 
</sarcasm> 
 
The transform/KA comparison is entirely valid, because, while rPD is far  
more common than PowerDef, KA's do STUN damage as well, letting you STUN  
an opponent, Knock him out, or Kill him. 
 
David A. Fair         | 
SDS International     |     Think Different 
dfair@sdslink.com     | 
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 08:26:59 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Is Transform too Cheap? (Was: Erasing Memories) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>  
 
> > power of last resort, Major Transform is too cheap for some of its 
> > uses and the power is much-overused.  For example, the HSR/BBB suggests 
>  
>         Huh?  How can something priced higher than killing someone be 
> overpriced?  If you can kill someone, you can change them.  The logic 
> makes sense. 
 
*Higher* than killing someone?  Not bloody likely.  Compare 
 
21	3D6 Cumulative Major Transform 
20	3D6+1 RKA vs PD. 
 
In a DC-12 campaign, typical starting rPD averages 10, starting Power  
Defense is zero and starting BODY is 11.  The transform averages 10.5 per  
hit: two or three hits to transform someone.  The RKA averages 3.5 per  
hit: six or seven hits to kill someone. 
 
A more direct comparison would be: 
 
 
35	3D6 RKA AVLD/Power Defense(+1 1/2) Does BODY(+1) No STUN(-1/2) 
 
The Transform/KA comparison is a false one, because KAs go against rPD,  
which is common and tends to be large, while Transforms go against Power  
Defense, which is uncommon and tends to be small.  Having the most major  
transforms be 25/die (37/die if cumulative) would seem about right to me. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 08:28:27 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Underworld Enemies? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:11 AM 4/7/1998 -0400, David Stallard wrote: 
>Can somebody tell me what's in this book?  Is it stats for normals who are 
>gangsters, etc, or is it stats for supervillains who work for the mob?  Was 
>this published as a Dark Champions supplement, or is it a "generic" 
>Champions supplement? 
 
   It's a mix of normals, gangsters, TPOs*, and mostly low-level 
superhumans suitable for Dark Champions campaigns.  It includes an advanced 
write-up of Crusader in Dark Champions terms, and what can be considered a 
preview of Chris Avellone's upcoming Asylum books. 
 
   *TPO = Trained Paranormal Operative; a person who uses high-level 
training and equipment to be on par with "true" superhumans. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 12:18:01 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  Re:  ICE supplements? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
In a message dated 4/6/98 6:13:10 PM, you wrote: 
 
<<  And the one currently available via Hero Plus is the same text, art, 
etc., that I currently have in my print copy, and not an update, right?>> 
 
Yep, that's right. No changes from the printed version. 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games 
 
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 12:29:24 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  Re:  ICE supplements? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
In a message dated 4/6/98 7:41:41 PM, you wrote: 
 
<<Actually, though, what I wanted to ask about was availability.  You said 
supplements were being converted to electronic format "as they go out of 
print".  How much of a delay is there, and what kind of backlog currently 
exists...also, are there out-of-print books that you don't plan to 
"resurrect" electronically (wow...shades of Dr. Frankenstein)?>> 
 
The lag depends on the title. Some products we already have in completely 
electronic form; those are easy to port over, but as they tend to be the newer 
books, they tend to be ones we still have in print. Somewhat older books we 
have the text in electronic form, but the graphics need to be scanned in. The 
oldest books need to be scanned in and OCR'ed to get the text in electronic 
form, and then edited (because the OCR process introduces errors), and then 
the graphics scanned. 
 
In the queue to be turned into electronic format: the VIPER sourcebook, 
Fantasy Hero (though Hero Games still has a handful of printed copies 
available for direct sale, we're putting this into electronic format to make 
it available to distribution), Classic Organizations, Lands of Mystery, and 
Mystic Masters. In some cases (like Lands of Mystery) the author wants to make 
changes, so that will delay the project. 
 
In the case of some books (like Wings of the Valkyrie) the author has 
requested that we do not put it into electronic format, so we're honoring that 
request. 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games  
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 10:39:29 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: ICE supplements? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:29 PM 4/7/1998 EDT, Hero Games wrote: 
>In the queue to be turned into electronic format: the VIPER sourcebook, 
>Fantasy Hero (though Hero Games still has a handful of printed copies 
>available for direct sale, we're putting this into electronic format to make 
>it available to distribution), Classic Organizations, Lands of Mystery, and 
>Mystic Masters. In some cases (like Lands of Mystery) the author wants to 
make 
>changes, so that will delay the project. 
> 
>In the case of some books (like Wings of the Valkyrie) the author has 
>requested that we do not put it into electronic format, so we're honoring 
that 
>request. 
 
   What about "The Coriolis Effect?" 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:48:31 -0400 (EDT) 
From: The Devil in Disguise! <mcosby@eagle.auc.on.ca> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: New millenium Errata?? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
ok, I'm not sure if this is actual errata or not, but I know it is really 
damn confusing for someone just trying to learn the system.  Right now, my 
buddies and I are creating characters for the champions new millenium 
game.  One person rolled on the origin tables, and got power armor, it 
says it must be bought with the disadvantage technology.  We couldn't find 
this in the book so we assumed that you just use the frequency intensity 
and importance.  Now this made perfect sense, except when we tried to 
verify this by looking at the New millenium sample characters, we notice 
that Defender had a disadvantage of 35 which does not seem be plausible. 
I didn't notice anything on any previous published errata, perhaps someone 
could explain this to me, if this is actually supposed to be correct. 
 
 
 
 
         _          __________                              _, 
     _.-(_)._     ."          ".      .--""--.          _.-{__}-._ 
   .'________'.   | .--------. |    .'        '.      .:-'`____`'-:. 
  [____________] /` |________| `\  /   .'``'.   \    /_.-"`_  _`"-._\ 
  /  / .\/. \  \|  / / .\/. \ \  ||  .'/.\/.\'.  |  /`   / .\/. \   `\ 
  |  \__/\__/  |\_/  \__/\__/  \_/|  : |_/\_| ;  |  |    \__/\__/    | 
  \            /  \            /   \ '.\    /.' / .-\                >/-. 
  /'._  --  _.'\  /'._  --  _.'\   /'. `'--'` .'\/   '._-.__--__.-_.' 
\/_   `""""`   _\/_   `""""`   _\ /_  `-./\.-'  _\'.    `""""""""`'`\ 
(__/    '|    \ _)_|           |_)_/            \__)|        '         
  |_____'|_____|   \__________/|;                  `_________'________`;-' 
  s'----------'    '----------'   '--------------'`--------------------` 
     S T A N          K Y L E        K E N N Y         C A R T M A N 
 
 
 
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:29:21 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  Re: ICE supplements? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
In a message dated 4/7/98 12:13:48 PM, you wrote: 
 
<< What about "The Coriolis Effect?" 
->> 
 
We still have copies for sale of the original printed version. 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games  
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 07 Apr 1998 15:40:05 -0400 
Lines: 41 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BG" == Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes: 
 
BG>    Besides, Rat's comments have little to do with the proposal I 
BG> forwarded (unless he also thinks that Armor Piercing and normal Find 
BG> Weakness are too deadly for a "four-color" game). 
 
They are when you start combining their effects. 
 
Take a character with a 3D6+1 RKA, Armor Piercing.  Put him against a 
character with a 30 DEF Force Field.  Even halved by the AP, a maximum 
damage roll of 19 Body will do only 4 Body. 
 
Same characters, but this time the attacker scores a "critical hit", and 
his defenses are halved.  Then they are halved again for the AP.  Suddenly, 
an average damage roll on the RKA does 3-4 Body.  Worse yet, the same 
maximum damage roll does 12 Body. 
 
I assumed nothing.  I did the math.  Going from uninjured to "you will 
bleed to death in 10 turns if you do not receive medical attention" in a 
single shot is deadly. 
 
 
Hero already has a "critical damage" system in effect.  It is called 
"rolling damage dice". 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
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Date: 07 Apr 1998 15:41:04 -0400 
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
>> Excuse me, but what the fuck?  Arbitrarilly assigning active point 
>> values to memories?  I *KNEW* there was a reason I avoided the 
>> "ultimate" books on general principle.  That is just too much. 
 
TRG> 	It seems Rat doesn't like anything useful to cross his path. 
 
Since when is a crock so blatant that it does not even pretend to fit with 
the existing mechanics qualify as "useful"? 
 
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--  
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:47:26 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: [Off-Topic] Other superhero RPGs 
To: "INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
I have no reason or desire to switch from Hero to some other system (my 
opinion of Fuzion is being formed, although I think I prefer Hero at this 
point), but I'm curious to know a little bit about the other systems out 
there.  I'm vaguely familiar with Marvel SH and DC Heroes...I have the 1st 
editions of both but haven't played either one.  The games I don't know 
anything about are:  GURPS Supers (or, I guess, GURPS in general), Heroes 
Unlimited (or whatever that Palladium game is called), and Villains & 
Vigilantes (is this one still being published?). 
 
Could someone, maybe in private mail to keep this list on track, give a 
brief rundown of these systems and how they differ from Champs?  I don't 
need to know the inner workings of the combat system, but just things like 
"you roll dice to make a character instead of spending points" or whatever. 
 I know that a lot of people don't like the Palladium system (and, from my 
very brief experience with TMNT, I'd have to agree), but for some reason 
I'm especially interested in that Heroes Unlimited game...maybe because I 
flipped through the powers and got some inspiration for HERO characters.  I 
did some web hunting for HU information, but the player-supported pages 
aren't so hot unless you're already familiar with the system. 
 
The reason I posted on the HERO list is because it seems that references to 
GURPS Supers are very common, and V&V also gets mentioned.  Nobody mentions 
HU, which maybe should tell me something about that game. 
 
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 12:55:04 -0700 
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
-> From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net Tue Apr  7 12:43:53 1998 
->  
-> Take a character with a 3D6+1 RKA, Armor Piercing.  Put him against a 
-> character with a 30 DEF Force Field.  Even halved by the AP, a maximum 
-> damage roll of 19 Body will do only 4 Body. 
->  
-> Same characters, but this time the attacker scores a "critical hit", and 
-> his defenses are halved.  Then they are halved again for the AP.  Suddenly, 
-> an average damage roll on the RKA does 3-4 Body.  Worse yet, the same 
-> maximum damage roll does 12 Body. 
 
Actually, half of 15 is 8 (in Champions defenses), so max is 11 body. 
 
->  
-> I assumed nothing.  I did the math.  Going from uninjured to "you will 
-> bleed to death in 10 turns if you do not receive medical attention" in a 
-> single shot is deadly. 
->  
 
I think you should go over your math again. You either go from uninjured to 
taking 3-4 body, or from taking 4 body to taking 11 body (depending on whether 
you are looking at average attacks or max outs). 
 
								-Sam 
 
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:57:17 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Supplement reviews? 
To: "INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Could someone post a brief review of the Allies book?  It sounds 
interesting, but it seems like it would be a lesser used book in my 
collection, since I don't think I would want to crowd the universe with NPC 
heroes that could steal the spotlight from the PC group.   
 
I'd also appreciate the same for the High-Tech Enemies book and the Mutant 
File book, if anyone has the time and inclination.  I've pretty much 
decided that these are on the "must have" list, but I'd still like to hear 
about 'em. 
 
Do any of these books offer explicit adventure ideas (as opposed to hinting 
at them in character backgrounds), or are they straight character writeups 
similar to Classic Enemies? 
 
I'm just going through the out-of-print-but-still-available stuff to see 
what I don't want to slip by, so I might ask for a few other "book reviews" 
later.... 
 
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:58:44 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Hero Universe 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
We've posted a document on our web site (www.herogames.com) about the Hero 
Universe, which is the setting where Bay City and the New Millennium campaign 
are placed. Hudson City is also a part of that, which is where the Dark 
Champions revision will be set, as well as the Justice Inc. revision. 
 
The Hero Universe is a grand tapestry of potential RPG settings, spanning time 
and space from 100,000 years B.C. to many thousands of years in the future of 
the galaxy. We're looking for authors to help fill in this tapestry by writing 
campaign settings for it. Many would be published through Hero Plus in 
electronic format; some would be published through Gold Rush Games or R. 
Talsorian Games. 
 
Please head over to the web site and check it out. If you're interested in 
contributing, you can find our submission guidelines on the web site and email 
Bruce Harlick at brucehh@aol.com about it. 
 
I'm also curious to hear what settings people find of the most interest, and 
others that may have been overlooked. 
 
Thanks! 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games  
 
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:00:37 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: ICE supplements? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> >request. 
> 
>    What about "The Coriolis Effect?" 
 
	Hmmm.  I just got this one, myself.  I want Red Doom and Scourge 
>From the Deep. 
 
	But I'd think Circle and METE, Blood and Dr. McQuark, Enemies: 
Internation File, and Villiany Unbound would be good ones for potential 
rerelease. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: New millenium Errata?? 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:02:47 -0700 (PDT) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>  
>  
> ok, I'm not sure if this is actual errata or not, but I know it is really 
> damn confusing for someone just trying to learn the system.  Right now, my 
> buddies and I are creating characters for the champions new millenium 
> game.  One person rolled on the origin tables, and got power armor, it 
 
	Hello; 
 
	You would do better to take this to the 'Fuzion Mailing list' 
 
let me see if I can find it for you 
 
(insert sounds of steam engines starting up as coal is shoved into the 
engine's of my browser.) 
 
	This from http://www.herogames.com : 
 
The Fuzion Mailing List 
	As you might have guessed, this mailing list dicusses Fuzion. If you 
	are interested, click on the link or mail a request to 
	fuzion-request@pjh.org. The subject and body text should say subscribe. 
 
 
 
This particular mailing list deals with Champions and the Hero system, and not 
Fuzion's C:TNM. 
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Re: ICE supplements? 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:04:27 -0700 (PDT) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> << What about "The Coriolis Effect?" >> 
>  
> We still have copies for sale of the original printed version. 
> 
	That was, IMHO, the best of the old Hero modules.  
 
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:18:56 -0500 (CDT) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: James Bond Scenarios 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
Which James Bond novels / movies would make good scenarios for a super-hero 
game ? 
 
Has anybody played or run in scenario inspired by one of the Bond movies ? 
 
I've run one "master villain attempts to rob Fort Knox" scenario, equally 
inspired by Goldfinger and the Adventurer's Club 'Raid on Fort Knox' article. 
 
I've also run a 'colony under the sea' episode where the characters were on 
the trail of Dr. Stromberg, noted marine biologist... 
 
 
Curt Hicks 
 
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:25:29 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> TRG> 	It seems Rat doesn't like anything useful to cross his path. 
> 
> Since when is a crock so blatant that it does not even pretend to fit with 
> the existing mechanics qualify as "useful"? 
 
	Hmmmm.  You seem to have ignored the remainder of my message.  As 
I inquired, if everything else in Hero can be described with points and 
mechanics, why can't memories.  Dispel/Suppress/Drain could be used to 
drain things that technically weren't paid for, like, say, the DEF of some 
object.  I'm sure you can think of other examples of normal things that 
have point representations and can be affected by powers. 
 
	So, given that thoughts and memories have some rating under 
existing mental powers, why not extrapolate for various adjustment-type 
powers? 
 
	Besides, this is about the best way I've seen to represent the MiB 
Memory Eraser without it costing way too much for the effectiveness. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:26:59 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: [Off-Topic] Other superhero RPGs 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
David B Stallard writes: 
> I have no reason or desire to switch from Hero to some other system  
<zappity> 
> Could someone, maybe in private mail to keep this list on track, give a 
> brief rundown of these systems and how they differ from Champs?  
Oh, but bashing other systems on a mailing list is _such_ fun. 
 
GURPS Supers: the GURPS system is good for a lot of things, though like any 
system it has its quirks, but the Supers supplement is notoriously bad.  GURPS 
resembles HERO in a number of ways, both are point-based 3d6-based systems, the 
things you are most likely to notice: 
Damage: this is linear in GURPS (depending on how you look at it, lifting 
ability is either first or second order in strength).  This means that 
extremely high power characters work quite a bit differently -- in Hero the 
difference between 50 strength (10d6 punch) and 60 strength (12d6) is not huge, 
in GURPS this is 160 ST (17d6 punch) vs 320 (33d6), which _is_ huge.  If you're 
a fan of street-level games, this may not be a problem. 
Lethality: GURPS supers offers a number of _optional_ rules on damage.  The 
system is unplayable without them...people will either be utterly unharmed, or 
they'll die instantly. 
Powers: while second-edition supers added the concepts of 'enhancement' and 
'limitation' (read: advantage/limitation), 'ice jet' and 'flame jet' are still 
separate powers.  There is no general power-creation system. 
Technology: there is no concept of restricting people's ability to pick up 
guns/armor/whatever, and such items are actually sufficiently powerful that 
most people will want to use them... 
--Overall: the GURPS system could do a reasonable job at a reasonably 
street-level supers game (such as Dark Champions), not so good at higher power 
levels.  However, the Supers supplement itself is garbage. 
 
Heroes Unlimited: I usually avoid palladium products, and this one was no 
exception.  I've looked very briefly at it and wasn't impressed. 
 
Villians and Vigilantes: I've only looked at the first edition of this game; 
it's an amusing random character creation system, though characters tend to be 
somewhat better balanced against one another than they are in Marvel Super 
Heroes.  The combat system is somewhat quirky, and quite cinematic, with some 
notable holes (for example, on average a housecat vs a tyrannosaurus rex is a 
fair fight).  The second edition of the game is supposedly point-based, but 
I've never actually seen it.  Technically, the game is still in print, you can 
get materials by contacting the company directly (FGU, I think), but it's 
hardly 'active'. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 07 Apr 1998 16:37:31 -0400 
Lines: 27 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "SB" == Sam Bell <Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM> writes: 
 
SB> I think you should go over your math again. You either go from 
SB> uninjured to taking 3-4 body, or from taking 4 body to taking 11 body 
SB> (depending on whether you are looking at average attacks or max outs). 
 
Without Bob's crit system, as things are right now, "you" take 3-4 Body 
from the maximum damage of the attack described.  With it, "you" take 11-12 
Body from the maximum damage of the same attack.  The former might not be 
considered deadly.  The latter is devestating. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
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X-SMTP: helo smtp2.teleport.com from miq@teleport.com server @smtp2.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.20 
From: Miq Millman <miq@teleport.com> 
Subject: 14 years ago tomorrow 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:40:08 -0700 (PDT) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Just an early birthday greeting, here. 
 
How's things?  Have you and Zoe set a date yet? 
 
Chromatic Dragon sends his best as well on this joint anniversay occaision. 
 
 
 
--  
__ 
Miq Millman   miq@teleport.com   
Tualatin, OR 
 
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From: Miq Millman <miq@teleport.com> 
Subject: Re: 14 years ago tomorrow 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:42:44 -0700 (PDT) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
Sorry for the spam 
Since the list moved, the mail headers just haven't been the same........ 
 
 
--  
__ 
Miq Millman   miq@teleport.com   
Tualatin, OR 
 
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:42:50 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: "INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: [Off-Topic] Other superhero RPGs 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> I have no reason or desire to switch from Hero to some other system (my 
> opinion of Fuzion is being formed, although I think I prefer Hero at this 
> point), but I'm curious to know a little bit about the other systems out 
> there.  I'm vaguely familiar with Marvel SH and DC Heroes...I have the 1st 
> editions of both but haven't played either one.  The games I don't know 
> anything about are:  GURPS Supers (or, I guess, GURPS in general), Heroes 
> Unlimited (or whatever that Palladium game is called), and Villains & 
> Vigilantes (is this one still being published?). 
 
	Not a bad idea, especially with the new Marvel SH coming out.  And 
I'd like to know more about Superworld and Superbabes, myself.  Heck, I've 
heard rumors of a Super Hero setting for the D6 universe (WEG). 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 07 Apr 1998 16:43:21 -0400 
Lines: 28 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
TRG> 	Hmmmm.  You seem to have ignored the remainder of my message.  As 
TRG> I inquired, if everything else in Hero can be described with points 
TRG> and mechanics, why can't memories. 
 
If it has a point cost, one can pay points for it.  When was the last time 
any of your characters had to spend any points for memories acquired after 
the start of the campaign? 
 
The entire premise is flawed. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:50:23 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On 7 Apr 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>  
> Hero already has a "critical damage" system in effect.  It is called 
> "rolling damage dice". 
 
Unfortunately (and this is what Bob is trying to fix, I think), said 
'critical damage' system - and indeed, the HERO damage system in general - 
has very little to do with the skill of the attacker. 
 
One can hit with a 3 and do minimum damage, one can hit exactly and do 
maximum damage.  This is an artifact of the system - it happens because 
the 'to-hit' roll was basically designed as a pass-fail. 
 
If you think of the to hit roll as determining 'did I hit or not', you're 
fine, because then the damage dice determine 'how well did I hit'.  If you 
look at it as determining 'how well (if at all) did I hit?', then you're 
going to have problems with the system as it stands. 
 
There's probably room for an optional rule in this that bases damage done 
on how much you beat your target number by, but the vast array of 
probabilities daunt me. 
 
(Unfortunately, I deleted the original proposal, so I can't comment on it 
here...Bob, can you resend please?  Thanks.  The other thing I want to be 
clear on is exactly what you're trying to do with this crit-hit system - 
is it that highly skilled characters don't do more damage than those with 
less skill?) 
 
J 
 
"One equal temper of heroic hearts,              http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will              jeffj@io.com 
 To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."    - Tennyson, "Ulysses" 
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 14:00:38 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Any interest in a far-future, LSH-type setting? I'm currently running one, 
and, at this early stage of the game, it seems to be succesful... 
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 14:23:34 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org, champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: 14 years ago tomorrow 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 01:40 PM 4/7/98 -0700, Miq Millman wrote: 
>Just an early birthday greeting, here. 
> 
>How's things?  Have you and Zoe set a date yet? 
> 
>Chromatic Dragon sends his best as well on this joint anniversay occaision. 
> 
Misdirected mail. Gotta love it. 
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 14:23:34 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org, champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: 14 years ago tomorrow 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 01:40 PM 4/7/98 -0700, Miq Millman wrote: 
>Just an early birthday greeting, here. 
> 
>How's things?  Have you and Zoe set a date yet? 
> 
>Chromatic Dragon sends his best as well on this joint anniversay occaision. 
> 
Misdirected mail. Gotta love it. 
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 14:26:06 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org, 
        "INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: [Off-Topic] Other superhero RPGs 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:42 PM 4/7/98 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
>	Not a bad idea, especially with the new Marvel SH coming out.  And 
>I'd like to know more about Superworld and Superbabes, myself.  Heck, I've 
>heard rumors of a Super Hero setting for the D6 universe (WEG). 
> 
Apparently, WEG has got the DC liscence. I've heard this from a Reliable 
Source TM. 
 
Superman vs. Darth Vader, anyone?  
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 14:26:06 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org, 
        "INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: [Off-Topic] Other superhero RPGs 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:42 PM 4/7/98 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
>	Not a bad idea, especially with the new Marvel SH coming out.  And 
>I'd like to know more about Superworld and Superbabes, myself.  Heck, I've 
>heard rumors of a Super Hero setting for the D6 universe (WEG). 
> 
Apparently, WEG has got the DC liscence. I've heard this from a Reliable 
Source TM. 
 
Superman vs. Darth Vader, anyone?  
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 14:33:08 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Supplement reviews? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:57 PM 4/7/1998 -0400, David B Stallard wrote: 
>Could someone post a brief review of the Allies book?  It sounds 
>interesting, but it seems like it would be a lesser used book in my 
>collection, since I don't think I would want to crowd the universe with NPC 
>heroes that could steal the spotlight from the PC group.   
 
   That problem is nicely worked around; most of the groups and heroes in 
there have hooks that could bring them into directly conflict with PCs.  In 
fact, there's only one group in there that would probably steal the 
spotlight from the PCs, and that's their conflict hook (the Flashmen like 
to take more public credit than they're due, and they're very good at it too). 
   There's also Executive Sanction, a low-powered group of Feds; the Posse, 
a bunch of killer vigilantes; the Braverman Foundation, a literal circus 
full of bricks; Zen Team, a corporate-owned sentai; the Redeemed, a bunch 
of ex-supervillains trying to go straight; and the Cyberknights, a more 
classic, if decidedly high-tech, group of heroes.  Solo heroes cover a wide 
range from the comedic to the horrific, and even a couple with political 
overtones. 
   On the whole, it's a very well-planned and well-organized book with a 
lot more in the way of story hooks than one would expect from a volume of 
superheroes.  And most of the groups (Executive Sanction, Zen Team, the 
Redeemed, and the Cyberknights) are potentially good resources for heroes, 
too. 
 
>I'd also appreciate the same for the High-Tech Enemies book and the Mutant 
>File book, if anyone has the time and inclination.  I've pretty much 
>decided that these are on the "must have" list, but I'd still like to hear 
>about 'em. 
 
   High-Tech Enemies is a very good book (I'd call it just short of 
"excellent") for any GM who wants to run a lot of high-tech adventures; if 
you can use Corporations and Allies as companion books (the latter for the 
Cyberknights), you can even fun an all-out high-tech superhero campaign. 
Its only real weaknesses are the somewhat inflated power levels of the 
villains, and the lack of real story hooks. 
   The Mutant File is arguably overpowered for most campaigns, particularly 
the updating of Genocide.  (In Sean Fannon's defense, much of the "power 
inflation" in this book was reportedly mandated by the Hero Guys, though 
some of it may have been an overreaction to said mandate.)  The actual 
mutants in this book, though, are either lower-powered or meant to be used 
in smaller groups; this makes it much easier for lower-powered PCs. 
 
>Do any of these books offer explicit adventure ideas (as opposed to hinting 
>at them in character backgrounds), or are they straight character writeups 
>similar to Classic Enemies? 
 
   You get a little of each.  There's a good number of good story hooks in 
both Allies and The Mutant File, and all three books have one or two short 
adventure write-ups in the back.  (Allies also has a page and a half of 
quick one-paragraph suggestions.) 
 
>I'm just going through the out-of-print-but-still-available stuff to see 
>what I don't want to slip by, so I might ask for a few other "book reviews" 
>later.... 
 
   Go ahead.  I own everything from the BBB through Watchers of the Dragon, 
so just ask away. 
   And, of course, others will have differing opinions. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 17:33:39 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  Re: ICE supplements? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
In a message dated 4/7/98 1:05:52 PM, you wrote: 
 
<<	But I'd think Circle and METE, Blood and Dr. McQuark, Enemies: 
Internation File, and Villiany Unbound would be good ones for potential 
rerelease. 
>> 
 
Sure, once we run out of them. Circle and METE is already out of print, and 
Aaron is in the throes of reworking them as part of his grand Strike Force 
revision (which will result in approximately 10 books or so from Hero Plus). 
However, he's been slowed by a small matter of having to write New York Times- 
bestselling Star Wars novels (see Wraith Squadron, first of several). 
 
If you want to see what we still have in stock, go to our web site at 
www.herogames.com and look in the Products section for complete listings. 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games 
 
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:39:01 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Re: ICE supplements? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> > << What about "The Coriolis Effect?" >> 
> > 
> > We still have copies for sale of the original printed version. 
> > 
> 	That was, IMHO, the best of the old Hero modules. 
 
	I prefered Wrath of the 7 Horsemen and VOICE of Doom, myself.  And 
I need a copy of The Island of Doctor Destroyer, come to think about it. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 14:42:44 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:37 PM 4/7/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "SB" == Sam Bell <Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM> writes: 
> 
>SB> I think you should go over your math again. You either go from 
>SB> uninjured to taking 3-4 body, or from taking 4 body to taking 11 body 
>SB> (depending on whether you are looking at average attacks or max outs). 
> 
>Without Bob's crit system, as things are right now, "you" take 3-4 Body 
>from the maximum damage of the attack described.  With it, "you" take 11-12 
>Body from the maximum damage of the same attack.  The former might not be 
>considered deadly.  The latter is devestating. 
 
   This assumes that (1) the attack did roll a natural 3, and (2) the 
"accidental Find Weakness" was successful. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:46:36 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: [Off-Topic] Other superhero RPGs 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> --Overall: the GURPS system could do a reasonable job at a reasonably 
> street-level supers game (such as Dark Champions), not so good at higher power 
> levels.  However, the Supers supplement itself is garbage. 
 
	How about the various other Supers releases.  Some look like good 
potential character sources.  I actually have Superscum, but am not sure 
how to go about converting characters.  "School of Hard Knocks" is an OK 
adventure for GURPS Supers that, as a bonus, Aaron Allston provides Champs 
conversions for on his web site.  Any other good suppliments? 
 
> Heroes Unlimited: I usually avoid palladium products, and this one was no 
> exception.  I've looked very briefly at it and wasn't impressed. 
 
	Any good character ideas? 
 
> Villians and Vigilantes: I've only looked at the first edition of this game; 
> it's an amusing random character creation system, though characters tend to be 
> somewhat better balanced against one another than they are in Marvel Super 
> Heroes.  The combat system is somewhat quirky, and quite cinematic, with some 
> notable holes (for example, on average a housecat vs a tyrannosaurus rex is a 
> fair fight).  The second edition of the game is supposedly point-based, but 
 
	Cat vs T-Rex?  How does that work? 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 14:48:25 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:50 PM 4/7/1998 -0500, Sakura wrote: 
>There's probably room for an optional rule in this that bases damage done 
>on how much you beat your target number by, but the vast array of 
>probabilities daunt me. 
 
   I do have such a system on my website, as a variation of the Diceless 
Combat System, if you'd be interested in checking into that.  This is my 
actual method for relating damage done to the skill of the attacker. 
 
>(Unfortunately, I deleted the original proposal, so I can't comment on it 
>here...Bob, can you resend please?  Thanks.  The other thing I want to be 
>clear on is exactly what you're trying to do with this crit-hit system - 
>is it that highly skilled characters don't do more damage than those with 
>less skill?) 
 
   What I'm actually trying to do with this system is to find a local place 
to put the idea that, if a skilled character can Find Weakness on purpose, 
then an unskilled one should be able to do it accidentally every so often. 
After all, the weakness is there if it can be found on purpose, and so it 
should be possible to find it by accident. 
   The original post of this Critical Hit system, including my brief 
analysis, is as follows (unmodified since nobody who's made any worthwile 
comment on it that I can recall offhand has actually read it): 
 
   Here's an idea for critical hits that I thought up a couple of weeks 
ago.  It does have a few holes in it (like the fact that there's no 
Critical Miss equivalent), but I think it's something worth considering. 
   The idea came to me when I was wondering about Find Weakness.  If an 
expert can find a weakness by training (or whatever), why couldn't someone 
occasionally find one by accident?  How would that work? 
   So my rule suggestion is that this is exactly what happens when someone 
rolls a natural 3 on an Attack Roll. 
   This form of Find Weakness is DEX-based instead of INT-based, and cannot 
be bought up (since it's a combat event and not a Skill).  Skill Levels do 
not apply to it (not even Overall Levels).  However, the character does get 
a +1 for every 2 points the Attack Roll was actually made by.  (If an 11 is 
needed and a 3 is rolled, that's a difference of 8, so the character gets a 
+4 to the Find Weakness.)  If the target has Luck, then he may also get a 
+1 for every level of Luck rolled. 
   The target's Lack of Weakness, if any, does apply to this Find Weakness. 
   The attacker may continue to roll Find Weakness, with the usual 
cumulative penalty of -2 per successive Roll, until he misses one.  Each 
successful Roll cuts the target's defenses in half *for that attack only*. 
 
   Now, right off-hand, I can see a couple of problems with this: 
   1) As mentioned above, there's no "critical miss" equivalent to balance 
this; if anyone has ideas, I'm open to suggestions. 
   2) It introduces yet more die-rolling to the game; in fact, when 
invoked, there's a likely average of around 3 additional rolls each time. 
(This could be fixed by making just one Find Weakness Roll, and halving the 
target's defenses for every +2 that it's made by.) 
 
   On the other hand, it has these strengths: 
   1) It increases the damage actually done without messing with the basic 
amount done, making it arguably just a little more true-to-life than just 
declaring that maximum damage is done. 
   2) Its effect is variable -- some hits are more critical than others. 
   3) It covers an occurrance (accidental Find Weakness) that logically 
should be able to happen from time to time. 
   4) The problems mentioned above are mitigated somewhat by two things: 
(a) it will only happen in one Attack Roll out of 216, and (b) it's as 
likely to happen to the bad guys as to the PCs. 
 
   If this idea goes over reasonably well with the list, I may add an 
adaptation of this rule to my Diceless Combat System. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:48:49 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> TRG> I inquired, if everything else in Hero can be described with points 
> TRG> and mechanics, why can't memories. 
> 
> If it has a point cost, one can pay points for it.  When was the last time 
> any of your characters had to spend any points for memories acquired after 
> the start of the campaign? 
 
	All the time, actually.  I happen to like to purchase Knowledge 
Skills, especially Area Knowledges.  These are nothing more than memories. 
 
> The entire premise is flawed. 
 
	You've provided no evidence as such.  However, I do think a memory 
erasing/dispelling power could be a good addition to the system.  It has 
enough special properties to be distinct from anything else in the system. 
It would result in less kludges of Mind Control, Telepathy, or Transform. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:50:11 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> SB> I think you should go over your math again. You either go from 
> SB> uninjured to taking 3-4 body, or from taking 4 body to taking 11 body 
> SB> (depending on whether you are looking at average attacks or max outs). 
> 
> Without Bob's crit system, as things are right now, "you" take 3-4 Body 
> from the maximum damage of the attack described.  With it, "you" take 11-12 
> Body from the maximum damage of the same attack.  The former might not be 
> considered deadly.  The latter is devestating. 
 
	Um, that's the point of a Critical Hit.  However, the same effect 
would be noted were a character to have Find Weakness to begin with. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 14:50:27 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:25 PM 4/7/1998 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> Besides, this is about the best way I've seen to represent the MiB 
>Memory Eraser without it costing way too much for the effectiveness. 
 
   You mean, the neuralizer a.k.a. flasher-thingie?  :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:52:12 -0500 (CDT) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: [Off-Topic] Other superhero RPGs 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> writes:  
 
> GURPS Supers: the GURPS system is good for a lot of things, though like any 
> system it has its quirks, but the Supers supplement is notoriously bad.  GURPS 
..... 
>  However, the Supers supplement itself is garbage. 
>  
 
Are you just referring to the 'supplement' that has the Supers rules ? 
I've got most if not all of the GURPS Supers Supplements,  IST, Supertemps,  
Superscum, etc. etc, and found all of them pretty good.  
 
Curt 
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 15:01:46 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: Re: ICE supplements? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 01:04 PM 4/7/98 -0700, you wrote: 
>> << What about "The Coriolis Effect?" >> 
>>  
>> We still have copies for sale of the original printed version. 
>> 
>	That was, IMHO, the best of the old Hero modules.  
 
 
I really liked the Protect and Serve module myself 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 15:02:45 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:43 PM 4/7/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
> 
>TRG>  Hmmmm.  You seem to have ignored the remainder of my message.  As 
>TRG> I inquired, if everything else in Hero can be described with points 
>TRG> and mechanics, why can't memories. 
> 
>If it has a point cost, one can pay points for it.  When was the last time 
>any of your characters had to spend any points for memories acquired after 
>the start of the campaign? 
 
   With this system introduced, it's now possible.  I could have an 
ancient, mystic crystal in my campaign that contains a person's memory of 
an important event (Memory, important, 20 Active Points; OAF, 10 real 
points).  Any person who holds the crystal would have access to the memory. 
 If there was some mystery to the event, whether its overall appearance or 
some small detail, then it could become an important plot element.  And 
some other group -- say, DEMON -- may want that memory permanently 
suppressed, and try to use a Dispel to get rid of it. 
   A magic-using PC might even want to go through the trouble of making 
such a gem (or a high-tech PC could make the technological equivalent). 
This is a lot easier than some rules kludge using Extra-Dimensional 
Telepathy or Eidetic Memory UBO or some such. 
   Personally, I would've used about half the values that Steve gave in TUM 
for most of the fixed values, using Eidetic Memory as a starting point. 
But that's just me. 
   What would you say is the better way to do this?  Remember to match the 
desired effect exactly -- the memory does *not* come back. 
 
>The entire premise is flawed. 
 
   Yours seems more flawed: No New Mechanics.  Even after 5th Edition is 
out, even with whatever power expansions go into it, there will be a need 
for new mechanics for things that weren't considered at the time.  Those of 
us with imaginations (especially the more twisted imaginagions) are always 
coming up with strange new effects that don't smoothly fit into the 
existing Hero System rules. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 18:06:16 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: [Off-Topic] Other superhero RPGs 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>> somewhat better balanced against one another than they are in Marvel Super 
>> Heroes.  The combat system is somewhat quirky, and quite cinematic, with some 
>> notable holes (for example, on average a housecat vs a tyrannosaurus rex is a 
>> fair fight).  The second edition of the game is supposedly point-based, but 
> 
>	Cat vs T-Rex?  How does that work? 
 
Fluffy jumps on T-Rex and tries to claw its eyeballs out. Classic conflict 
if I ever heard one. Of course, all Fluffy should really be able to do is 
distract the T-Rex, giving little Jimmy time to run away and hide under 
something. It's the sort of thing you'd see in a Disney flick ^_^. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 15:07:23 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 02:00 PM 4/7/1998 -0700, Lizard wrote: 
>Any interest in a far-future, LSH-type setting? I'm currently running one, 
>and, at this early stage of the game, it seems to be succesful... 
 
   Before the move from ICE to RTG, there was talk of "Champions 3000," 
which would resemble an LSH-type setting.  In the Hero Universe timeline 
(at least, on my printout of it; and I don't think things have changed 
since then), the centuries leading up to the 50th are the era of "Galactic 
Champions." 
   If you want to write it, I'd probably want to buy it (I may even want to 
correspond with you about it, since I'm trying to get dibs on the earliest 
part of that period for an idea of my own). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 07 Apr 1998 18:09:17 -0400 
Lines: 31 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "S" == Sakura <jeffj@io.com> writes: 
 
S> Unfortunately (and this is what Bob is trying to fix, I think), said 
S> 'critical damage' system - and indeed, the HERO damage system in general 
S> - has very little to do with the skill of the attacker. 
 
Guess what?  It is possible to hit someone in the head with a .44Mag and 
barely scratch him.  Or the same weapon can kill him instantly with a head 
shot.  Which result actually happens has nothing to do with the skill of 
the attacker.  The damage multiples on the hit location chart really do 
provide a fair approximation of what could happen. 
 
Where the attacker's skill comes into play is calling specific locations to 
get the nasty damage multiples. 
 
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:10:00 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: [Off-Topic] Other superhero RPGs 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Curt Hicks writes: 
>  
> Are you just referring to the 'supplement' that has the Supers rules ? 
> I've got most if not all of the GURPS Supers Supplements,  IST, Supertemps, 
>  Superscum, etc. etc, and found all of them pretty good.  
 
Yes.  The supplements _for_ gurps supers were decent enough (though they had a 
bit of a tendency to invent new rules...), it's just Supers itself which is 
bad. 
 
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:15:43 -0700 
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories - another approach 
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
I'm running a highly variant Fantasy Hero game ("Arduin Hero") and I 
created a new ego power called 'Forget': 
 
It basically works like Mind Control, Telepathy, etc. It costs 5pts/d6 and 
it uses Ego vs Ego to target. The difference is that is uses Int for the 
effect table and for making 'breakout' rolls. 
 
 
Forget Table: 
 
total greater		Target  
  than:			forgets: 
 
Int		Trivia, Mundane Events 
 
Int+10		Interesting Events, Seldom-Used Knowledge 
 
Int+20		Remarkable Events, Oft-Used Knowledge 
 
Int+30		Target's name, religious affiliation, etc 
 
Example: Oblivio is on the run, and he runs into a cop. He runs 
off, but before losing sight he attempts to make the cop forget 
the incident. The GM rules that meeting Oblivio, a villain in a 
purple jumpsuit with a big green "O" on his chest is a remarkable 
event, so he must get Int+20. Oblivio has 12d6 of Forget and rolls 
well: 47. The cop only had a 10 Int so he rolled 17 more than he 
needed, now the cop is at -3 to his Int rolls to 'break out'. He 
rolls a 12 on his phase, then a 10 on post-12. On his own, it may 
take him hours to remember. Just then, the Krimson Kid, hot on  
Oblivio's trail, stops by.  At first the cop can't remember anything, 
but as long as the Kid keeps asking questions ("You know, big guy, 
purple suit, yellow cape, he was just here a minute ago...") the 
cop will keep getting to make an Int roll every phase. 
 
						-Sam 
 
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:16:24 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: [Off-Topic] Other superhero RPGs 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Tim R. Gilberg writes: 
>      Cat vs T-Rex?  How does that work? 
 
Oddities having to do with how damage is computed, and how 'hit points' were 
computed.  Damage was exponential (similar to Hero) and in most cases you just 
had hit points, not armor; thus a cat did around 1d4, the dinosaur something 
like 2d10, 3d10 (I don't remember exactly).  Hit points were computed in an 
arcane formula which included size, stamina, agility, and a few other things -- 
the idea being that 'hit points' weren't raw physical toughness, they just 
represented an overall ability to take damage, be it by absorbing hits, rolling 
with the blow, or whatever.  Not necessarily a bad idea, actually kind of 
interesting.  Anyway, the cat had gobs of agility on the T-rex; the cat had 
some 8 hp vs the T-rex's 50 or so (after applying agility, etc).  The cat was 
thus more accurate (higher agility) and I think got a bonus to damage due to 
agility as well, plus it acted 2-3 times as often as the T-rex.  However, if 
the T-rex got a hit the cat died.  I finally worked out that in the time it 
would take the cat to (on average) claw the T-rex to ribbons, the T-rex had 
about a 50% chance of scoring a hit on (and killing) the cat. 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 18:40:13 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: ICE supplements? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< But I'd think Circle and METE, Blood and Dr. McQuark, Enemies: Internation 
File, and Villiany Unbound would be good ones for potential rerelease. >> 
 
  I believe we still have all of those in stock. Not a lot, but a few. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 18:41:02 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Supplement reviews? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< Could someone post a brief review of the Allies book?  It sounds 
interesting, but it seems like it would be a lesser used book in my 
collection, since I don't think I would want to crowd the universe with NPC 
heroes that could steal the spotlight from the PC group. >> 
 
  So change the costumes and names and use them as NPC villains...  ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 15:46:47 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
You can check out http://www.mrlizard.com/gaming/sentry.html for some notes 
on the universe. It's a bit sparse because it is 'common knowledge' that my 
players have as well -- no Hidden GM Tidbits. 
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 17:50:32 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re:  Re:  ICE supplements? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>In the queue to be turned into electronic format: the VIPER sourcebook, 
>Fantasy Hero (though Hero Games still has a handful of printed copies 
>available for direct sale, we're putting this into electronic format to make 
>it available to distribution), Classic Organizations, Lands of Mystery, and 
>Mystic Masters. In some cases (like Lands of Mystery) the author wants to 
make 
>changes, so that will delay the project. 
 
This brings up another point I should have thought of before:  do these 
faithful electronic reproductions include the original errors, or in cases 
where errata has been published, have those corrections been incorporated? 
 
>In the case of some books (like Wings of the Valkyrie) the author has 
>requested that we do not put it into electronic format, so we're honoring 
that 
>request. 
 
I don't think I know that one...must be one of the earlier double-digit 
product numbers, and I have most of those. 
 
Damon 
 
|--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 17:59:19 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: ICE supplements? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:39 AM 4/7/98 -0700, you wrote: 
>>In the case of some books (like Wings of the Valkyrie) the author has 
>>requested that we do not put it into electronic format, so we're honoring 
>that 
>>request. 
> 
>   What about "The Coriolis Effect?" 
 
I have two copies of that one; want one?  Every once in a while I find a 
stash of old Hero products at comic shop or book store and can't remember 
for sure which ones I have.  I have duplicates now of Coriolis, plus 
Enemies: the International File, VOICE, The Spell Book, and Almanac 2.  The 
few things I know I'm missing are Enemies: Villainy Unbound, the original 
Red Doom (got the 4th Ed update), Watchers of the Dragon, AC1 and AC4 
(plus some of the electronic-format-only Hero Plus products).  Most of 
those are available from Hero, I just keep neglecting to order them. 
 
Damon 
 
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 18:02:30 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  Re: ICE supplements? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> <<	But I'd think Circle and METE, Blood and Dr. McQuark, Enemies: 
> Internation File, and Villiany Unbound would be good ones for potential 
> rerelease. 
> >> 
> 
> Sure, once we run out of them. Circle and METE is already out of print, and 
> Aaron is in the throes of reworking them as part of his grand Strike Force 
> revision (which will result in approximately 10 books or so from Hero Plus). 
> However, he's been slowed by a small matter of having to write New York Times- 
> bestselling Star Wars novels (see Wraith Squadron, first of several). 
 
	Oh, I have the pre-4th editions of these products.  I just want to 
see them updated to 4th or 5th edition. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 07 Apr 1998 19:08:00 -0400 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
TRG> 	Um, that's the point of a Critical Hit.  However, the same effect 
TRG> would be noted were a character to have Find Weakness to begin with. 
 
But in the case of Find Weakness, you need several successful rolls, at 
cumulative penalties, not to mention range modifers, to achieve the 
effect.  Not to mention the fact that Find Weakness has a Big Huge Stop 
Sign on it (or at least a magnifying glass... I forget off-hand which). 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Date: 07 Apr 1998 19:10:02 -0400 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
TRG> 	All the time, actually.  I happen to like to purchase Knowledge 
TRG> Skills, especially Area Knowledges.  These are nothing more than 
TRG> memories. 
 
So, how much is remembering my nephew's birthday party worth?  Can I 
permanantly sell those memories back for points? 
 
How much is 30 years worth of memories like that worth?  Can I get points 
for those in addition to Physical Limitation: Amnesia? 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories - another approach 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "SB" == Sam Bell <Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM> writes: 
 
SB> It basically works like Mind Control, Telepathy, etc. It costs 5pts/d6 
SB> and it uses Ego vs Ego to target. The difference is that is uses Int 
SB> for the effect table and for making 'breakout' rolls. 
 
Telepathy used to work on Intelligence, rather than Ego, and at a +20 level 
of effect it could affect memories, at least temporarilly.  "Permanant" 
changes, of course, required Transformation. 
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 16:37:15 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Low Gravity and STR 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Ifthe PCs are on the moon, how would this affect their STR? I was thinking 
of granting +10 STR for lifting purposes and jumping purposes, but not for 
damage purposes. Any thoughts? 
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 18:38:45 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>The Hero Universe is a grand tapestry of potential RPG settings, spanning 
time 
>and space from 100,000 years B.C. to many thousands of years in the future of 
>the galaxy. We're looking for authors to help fill in this tapestry by 
writing 
>campaign settings for it. Many would be published through Hero Plus in 
>electronic format; some would be published through Gold Rush Games or R. 
>Talsorian Games. 
 
Having read the document in question, I find I have mixed feelings about 
it.  I am a little concerned that it represents a step toward 
standardization of a sort that the Big Two comics companies have had a 
great deal of trouble with.  GMs continue to be fre to run their house 
games any way they see fit, but I see potential problems if future 
published products will be expected to conform to this mold.   
 
For one thing, a would-be game author may just decide it's not worth the 
trouble of heavily revising his concept to include some of the assumptions 
the Timeline makes, or an otherwise fine product might be rejected for that 
reason. 
 
Also (and this is where Marvel and DC had trouble) the Timeline as it 
stands now is fairly general, but if it's built on by upcoming "official" 
products, it gains more weight.  What happens when a conflict is found 
between a pre-"Hero Universe 1.0" game product and the new Timeline?  One 
of two things:  retconning, or a discrepancy that must be ignored no matter 
how blatant it may be.  Those comic companies spent decades putting out 
unrelated stories and then tried to tie them all together and reinvent 
their respective universes.  Results were uniformly disastrous.  Whether or 
not that will happen here depends largely on how strictly the Timeline is 
enforced for published products. 
 
>I'm also curious to hear what settings people find of the most interest, and 
>others that may have been overlooked. 
 
The above concerns aside, I was impressed with the sheer scope of the 
Timeline.  I do not play Fantasy Hero, and am likely to ignore everything 
prior to 1500 A.D. (over 100,000 years of Hero Universe history!)  The 
settings I'd be most interested in are Two-Fisted Champions/Golden Age 
Champions (big, big, fan of the Shadow, Doc Savage, the Green Hornet and so 
on), and Solar Hero/Interstellar Hero.  Our group usually plays Champions 
which, though set in the '90s, are best described by the tone of Silver Age 
Champions. 
 
My Star Hero campaign starts in two weeks and is set in 2248 A.D. with FTL 
Travel and two extrasolar colony worlds, terraforming of Mars well 
underway, but no aliens yet contacted.  I'd be willing to play in a 
far-future setting like Galactic Champions, but wouldn't run that game and 
so might not buy products for it.  Ah, who am I kidding... I'm an addict, 
I'll buy anything I'll play.   
 
We had mammoths and mammoth hunters in North America as recently as 9000 
B.C., they do not need to be relegated to the Bronze Age. 
 
Missing eras include Napoleonic Hero (in between Revolutionary and 
Victorian).  No mention is made of the American Civil War, the War of 1812, 
the French Revolution, or World War I as potential settings for War Hero. 
The 1990's seem conspicuously absent as well. 
 
Damon 
 
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 18:49:49 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> So, how much is remembering my nephew's birthday party worth?  Can I 
> permanantly sell those memories back for points? 
 
	Well, it'd depend on the GM, but most would allow little more that 
Psych Lim: Absentminded here.  We're talking about unimportant (to the 
game) knowledges.  That said, a mechanic other than Transform would be 
nice to make someone forget these types of memories. 
 
> How much is 30 years worth of memories like that worth?  Can I get points 
> for those in addition to Physical Limitation: Amnesia? 
 
	Nope, mostly for the reason that most of these memories (read, 
KSs) are free.  They're part of what everyone has.  More important ones, 
like detailed knowledge of Hudson City's Underworld, cost points.  And 
Phys Lim: Amnesia (maybe Psych Lim, depends on the SFX) would be worth 
enough to cover not having these everyman freebie KSs. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 20:22:34 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  Re:  Re:  ICE supplements? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
In a message dated 4/7/98 3:58:00 PM, you wrote: 
 
<<This brings up another point I should have thought of before:  do these 
faithful electronic reproductions include the original errors, or in cases 
where errata has been published, have those corrections been incorporated?>> 
 
We are trying to include corrections, especially any that the author requests, 
in the electronic versions of the books. 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games 
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 17:44:58 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Transformation Attacks (5ED)? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 05:02 PM 4/6/1998 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote: 
>Hm...some time ago, I was considering writing up transform after the  
>style of a mental power, and I finally completed it.  The result is somewhat 
>better defined than a standard Hero transform, and hopefully not completely 
>imbalanced; I'm curious what people think. 
 
   I took a while to peruse this, and I think it look quite interesting. 
Certainly there's a lot of thought given to quantifying how Transform works. 
   Other than organizing the bonuses a little more neatly, the only thing 
I'd recommend is having the effects go against BODY rather than CON. 
There's a strong history for using BODY for Transforms, and it makes it 
easier to apply logically to machines and inanimate objects, which have 
BODY but not CON. 
   Since no big discussion was raised over it, what I think I'll do is hold 
on to that post of yours and look it over more closely at a later date.  If 
it wasn't such a radical change from 4th edition, not to mention after the 
April 1st deadline, I'd say that it stood a good chance of getting in as a 
5th edition rule; as it is, I think we'll have to wait for 6th edition, or 
maybe some Hero System Almanac. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 17:59:37 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories - another approach 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 07:14 PM 4/7/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>>>>>> "SB" == Sam Bell <Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM> writes: 
> 
>SB> It basically works like Mind Control, Telepathy, etc. It costs 5pts/d6 
>SB> and it uses Ego vs Ego to target. The difference is that is uses Int 
>SB> for the effect table and for making 'breakout' rolls. 
> 
>Telepathy used to work on Intelligence, rather than Ego, and at a +20 level 
>of effect it could affect memories, at least temporarilly.  "Permanant" 
>changes, of course, required Transformation. 
 
   Even Transform isn't permanent; it can be healed back, either normally 
or though a pre-defined "cure." 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 18:03:19 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: ICE supplements? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 05:59 PM 4/7/1998 -0500, you wrote: 
>At 10:39 AM 4/7/98 -0700, you wrote: 
>>>In the case of some books (like Wings of the Valkyrie) the author has 
>>>requested that we do not put it into electronic format, so we're honoring 
>>that 
>>>request. 
>> 
>>   What about "The Coriolis Effect?" 
> 
>I have two copies of that one; want one?  Every once in a while I find a 
>stash of old Hero products at comic shop or book store and can't remember 
>for sure which ones I have.  I have duplicates now of Coriolis, plus 
>Enemies: the International File, VOICE, The Spell Book, and Almanac 2.  The 
>few things I know I'm missing are Enemies: Villainy Unbound, the original 
>Red Doom (got the 4th Ed update), Watchers of the Dragon, AC1 and AC4 
>(plus some of the electronic-format-only Hero Plus products).  Most of 
>those are available from Hero, I just keep neglecting to order them. 
 
   I'll take that spare Coriolis Effect.  Other than Robot Gladiators, it's 
the only book I'm really missing out on. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 18:11:14 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Low Gravity and STR 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:37 PM 4/7/1998 -0700, Lizard wrote: 
>Ifthe PCs are on the moon, how would this affect their STR? I was thinking 
>of granting +10 STR for lifting purposes and jumping purposes, but not for 
>damage purposes. Any thoughts? 
 
   While +10 STR would represent 1/4X gravity, I think the moon's gravity 
is actually closer to 1/6 the Earth's, which would mean +13 STR.  (I looked 
it up, but couldn't get a straight answer from Britannica; I really miss my 
old World Book.)  Otherwise I think that your way is the way to do it. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 18:15:54 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories - another approach 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:15 PM 4/7/1998 -0700, Sam Bell wrote: 
> 
>I'm running a highly variant Fantasy Hero game ("Arduin Hero") and I 
>created a new ego power called 'Forget': 
> 
>It basically works like Mind Control, Telepathy, etc. It costs 5pts/d6 and 
>it uses Ego vs Ego to target. The difference is that is uses Int for the 
>effect table and for making 'breakout' rolls. 
 
   It looks to me like it's essentially Mind Control redefined to work 
against INT, with +1/4 for Telepathic Command and -1/4 for Limited Class of 
Commands, and reconstructed into a Meta-Power.  That said, though, I don't 
think it's a necessarily *bad* construct.  I think I'd leave it as I just 
described it for my own game (maybe with an extra -1/2 Limitation for 
working against INT, as per TUM), but this mechanic is workable on a 
general basis for a house rule. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 21:12:48 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> TRG> 	Um, that's the point of a Critical Hit.  However, the same effect 
> TRG> would be noted were a character to have Find Weakness to begin with. 
> 
> But in the case of Find Weakness, you need several successful rolls, at 
> cumulative penalties, not to mention range modifers, to achieve the 
> effect.  Not to mention the fact that Find Weakness has a Big Huge Stop 
> Sign on it (or at least a magnifying glass... I forget off-hand which). 
 
	But that Find weakness mixed with the AP attack will have the 
exact same effect, a whole lot more often, then a 1 in 216 chance further 
reduced by a roll for potential Find Weakness after that 1 in 216. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 21:15:45 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories - another approach 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> SB> It basically works like Mind Control, Telepathy, etc. It costs 5pts/d6 
> SB> and it uses Ego vs Ego to target. The difference is that is uses Int 
> SB> for the effect table and for making 'breakout' rolls. 
> 
> Telepathy used to work on Intelligence, rather than Ego, and at a +20 level 
> of effect it could affect memories, at least temporarilly.  "Permanant" 
> changes, of course, required Transformation. 
 
	Well, besides the fact that even Transform isn't "permanent", this 
is an area where, IMO, a new power would fit in well.  I'd like something 
more permanent than Sam Bell's -- if it's gone, it's gone -- at least 
until, perhaps, therapy of some sort brings it back.  Or you watch the 
replay.  The idea is common enough to deserve a mechanic, and it is 
distinct enough from Mind Control or Telepathy to need something else. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 07 Apr 1998 22:41:07 -0400 
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Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
TRG> 	But that Find weakness mixed with the AP attack will have the 
TRG> exact same effect, a whole lot more often, 
 
Any GM that allows a combination of Find Weakness and Armor Piercing 
deserves the nightmares it gives him. 
 
TRG> then a 1 in 216 chance further reduced by a roll for potential Find 
TRG> Weakness after that 1 in 216. 
 
I have been suprised at how frequently that 1:216 comes up. 
 
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--  
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 07 Apr 1998 22:45:18 -0400 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
>> So, how much is remembering my nephew's birthday party worth?  Can I 
>> permanantly sell those memories back for points? 
 
TRG> 	Well, it'd depend on the GM, but most would allow little more that 
TRG> Psych Lim: Absentminded here. 
 
Now wait a second.  I can take a disadvantage that says I walk with a limp, 
and I can sell back some of my running to reflect it.  If memories have an 
active point cost, why is it that I cannot sell those off, too? 
 
TRG> We're talking about unimportant (to the game) knowledges. 
 
If they are not important, why do they have a point cost? 
 
TRG> That said, a mechanic other than Transform would be nice to make 
TRG> someone forget these types of memories. 
 
As I previously mentioned, the previous incarnation of Telepathy had this 
feature.  That is a good place to start if you are looking for a "new" 
power. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories - another approach 
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Date: 07 Apr 1998 22:47:21 -0400 
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
TRG> 	Well, besides the fact that even Transform isn't "permanent", 
 
Tim, the quotes around the word mean that I am deliberately using the word 
with a meaning that is not precicely correct. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Low Gravity and STR 
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>>>>> "L" == Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> writes: 
 
L> Ifthe PCs are on the moon, how would this affect their STR?  I was 
L> thinking of granting +10 STR for lifting purposes and jumping purposes, 
L> but not for damage purposes. Any thoughts? 
 
Weight, which is a function of gravity, and mass, which is not, are not the 
same thing.  If you have sufficient strength to move a thing and can 
overcome whatever friction is holding in place (which is a weight/gravity 
issue), you can move it regardless of how much it weighs. 
 
Actually, when you get right down to it, +10 effective Strength is a 
reasonable, if quick-and-dirty, way to do it. 
 
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 19:57:36 -0700 
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Low Gravity and STR 
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-> From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net Tue Apr  7 19:53:30 1998 
->  
-> Weight, which is a function of gravity, and mass, which is not, are not the 
-> same thing.  If you have sufficient strength to move a thing and can 
-> overcome whatever friction is holding in place (which is a weight/gravity 
-> issue), you can move it regardless of how much it weighs. 
->  
-> Actually, when you get right down to it, +10 effective Strength is a 
-> reasonable, if quick-and-dirty, way to do it. 
->  
 
So, if we are in a stable orbit, or interstellar space (ie, weightless), do 
we all get plus one zillion Str? To put it another way, ever hear of something 
called inertia? 
 
							-Sam 
 
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 22:29:01 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
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> TRG> 	But that Find weakness mixed with the AP attack will have the 
> TRG> exact same effect, a whole lot more often, 
> 
> Any GM that allows a combination of Find Weakness and Armor Piercing 
> deserves the nightmares it gives him. 
 
	I'd require a lessened DC on any powers affected, myself.  But a 
6d6 AP w/ Find Weakness isn't that bad. 
 
> TRG> then a 1 in 216 chance further reduced by a roll for potential Find 
> TRG> Weakness after that 1 in 216. 
> 
> I have been suprised at how frequently that 1:216 comes up. 
 
	Yeah.  A little less than .5% of the time, for me. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 22:36:56 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
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> TRG> 	Well, it'd depend on the GM, but most would allow little more that 
> TRG> Psych Lim: Absentminded here. 
> 
> Now wait a second.  I can take a disadvantage that says I walk with a limp, 
> and I can sell back some of my running to reflect it.  If memories have an 
> active point cost, why is it that I cannot sell those off, too? 
 
	You can sell of something with that Psych Lim: Absentminded.  Buy 
back some of your INT.  But this is a case of having troubles with 
memories rather than not having the memories. 
 
	In the case of Phys Lim: Amnesia we have a Phys Lim that takes 
away Everyman abilities.  Everyone has memories, some of yours are 
missing.  Only the important ones cost points to buy.  However, if a 
mechanic allows one to get rid of the memories, we can't let unimportant 
ones go away for free any more than we can let the first 10 points of the 
primary stats be drained for free. 
 
> TRG> We're talking about unimportant (to the game) knowledges. 
> 
> If they are not important, why do they have a point cost? 
 
	For purposes of completeness.  These are unimportant mental data 
packets, but they exist and can be affected like any other. 
 
> TRG> That said, a mechanic other than Transform would be nice to make 
> TRG> someone forget these types of memories. 
> 
> As I previously mentioned, the previous incarnation of Telepathy had this 
> feature.  That is a good place to start if you are looking for a "new" 
> power. 
 
	Possibly.  However, a mechanic where this is the sole purpose of 
the power would be nice.  As is, we're looking at merely one potential 
effect of Telepathy, and not one at the base level. 
 
	Considering the minor overlap in the other mental powers -- Mind 
Control could easily be used for Telepathy and Mental Illusions, Mental 
Illusions can act as a pseudo mind control, etc -- it makes sense to draw 
this out to its own power.  Differentiating the importance of memories 
would allow a structure similar to the EGO, EGO+10, EGO+20, EGO+30, EGO+40 
we see with the current mental powers.  With the old Telepathy, we have 
merely the Ego+20 level, and leave a lot up to discretion. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Low Gravity and STR 
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>>>>> "SB" == Sam Bell <Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM> writes: 
 
SB> So, if we are in a stable orbit, or interstellar space (ie, 
SB> weightless), do we all get plus one zillion Str? To put it another way, 
SB> ever hear of something called inertia? 
 
Yeah... and it has no bearing on how much you can lift/move, only how fast 
you can move it. 
 
Say you have a 10 Strength.  On Earth, you must push your Strength to carry 
a 400Kg object, unless it is on wheels (overcome friction).  Even with 
wheels, you will not be able to move it quickly. 
 
On the Moon, which has a force of gravity roughly 1/6 that of Earth, you 
can carry a 400Kg object without too much effort, because its weight is 1/6 
what it was on Earth -- your effective Strength is 10 higher than normal 
(actually, closer to 13 if you want to be a bit more realistic about it). 
But it still has a mass of 400Kg, so you will not be able to move it any 
faster than you could on Earth. 
 
In a freefall environment, where there is effectively no acceleration due 
to gravity, your lifting capacity is effectively infinite.  You can carry 
that 400Kg object with no effort at all because it has no weight.  But it 
still has a mass of 400Kg, so you will not be able to move it any faster 
than you could on Earth or the Moon. 
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 22:54:15 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Low Gravity and STR 
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At 04:37 PM 4/7/98 -0700, Lizard wrote: 
>Ifthe PCs are on the moon, how would this affect their STR? I was thinking 
>of granting +10 STR for lifting purposes and jumping purposes, but not for 
>damage purposes. Any thoughts? 
 
This has come up in preparations for our Star Hero game, where we not only 
have to worry about the Moon, (0.16 G, Bob is correct) but also Mars (0.38 
G) and two extrasolar colony worlds (1.2 G and 0.9 G respectively). 
 
I start with the fact that kg is a measure of mass, not weight, so to keep 
everything consistent, a native of Luna should be able to lift the same 
mass *on Luna* that a person on Earth could lift.  So, a Lunar character's 
STR of 10 will lift 100kg within the domed city (the Lunar colony cities 
maintain 0.8 G, since the lower outside gravity is just too inconvenient 
for daily living; microgravity is bad for you over the long term). 
However, once he got to Earth his STR would effectively be reduced to 9 
because of the higher gravity. 
 
I add and subtract END in similar ratios when you move to a higher or lower 
gravity field.  Moving into a lighter gravity field gains you 2 END for 
every 1/10th G; you lose 2 END for every 1/10th G added if you enter a 
higher gravity field than the one you're used to.  These effects will be 
temporary, but how long they last may depend on how much time you've been 
in one gravity field before entering a different one. 
 
And yes, the uses for the extra STR and END are limited to those which are 
related to movement and lifting.  You don't get an extra use out of your 
Energy Blast or the ability to punch through walls. 
 
Damon 
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 23:11:29 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net> 
Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 07:08 AM 4/8/98 -0700, John Desmarais wrote: 
>> 	Actually, didn't FASA put together its three major products? 
>> Wasn't Earthdawn on the same world as Shadowrun, the latter being a 
>> re-awakening of the magic of the former.  And wasn't Battletech just 
>> 1000 or so years after Shadowrun? 
> 
>I never heard anything about Battletech being related (never read much 
>of the game), but I do remember something about Earthdawn and 
>Shadowrun being related somehow (heck, just look at the critters in 
>each, lots of duplicates). 
 
As I understand it, Earthdawn was conceived from the beginning as the 
fantasy world from which all the magic elements in Shadowrun were 
"awakening" FROM. As for Battletech -- I know they altered MechWarrior to 
make it *mechanically* similar to Shadowrun (specifically the whole priority 
chart 'n archtype system for chargen), but I never heard that there was any 
*setting* connections. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:17:10 -0400 
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: [Off-Topic] Other superhero RPGs 
To: "INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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> Villians and Vigilantes: I've only looked at the first edition of this 
game; 
> it's an amusing random character creation system, though characters tend 
to be 
> somewhat better balanced against one another than they are in Marvel 
Super 
> Heroes.  The combat system is somewhat quirky, and quite cinematic, with 
some 
> notable holes (for example, on average a housecat vs a tyrannosaurus rex 
is a 
> fair fight).  The second edition of the game is supposedly point-based, 
but 
> I've never actually seen it.  Technically, the game is still in print, 
you can 
> get materials by contacting the company directly (FGU, I think), but it's 
> hardly 'active'. 
 
I never did the House Cat vs. T-Rex scenario, but my favorite bit from V&V 
was the damage given for nuclear bombs: Small: 1d100, Medium: 2d100, and 
large: 4d100, so yes, it was possible to stand at ground zero of a large 
nuclear bomb and take only 4 points of damage. Simply changing it to 10d10, 
20d10, and 40d10 would have fixed that. 
 
The second edition was vastly superior, as it got rid of that annoying 
D&Dish bit of adding one hit die every level that gave high level 
mentalists roughly the same hit points as high level bricks. It had several 
flaws still (every Power Blast did the same amount of damage as every other 
Power Blast), but the combat was simpler and faster to run than Hero, once 
you got used to the DM's Guide style Combat chart. One positive gem was the 
power, Cosmic Awareness, which I have adapted to Hero rules as a 30 point 
Special Power, since there was no way to build it under Hero rules. 
 
A few of the later supplements even included a V&V to Champions conversion 
system that worked amazingly well. A huge number of NPCs in my campaign 
were lifted from V&V modules, since I knew the players had never seen them. 
 
Jeff Reid 
Morfhis@compuserve.com 
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:17:13 -0400 
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
To: "INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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>       You've provided no evidence as such.  However, I do think a memory 
> erasing/dispelling power could be a good addition to the system.  It has 
> enough special properties to be distinct from anything else in the 
system. 
> It would result in less kludges of Mind Control, Telepathy, or Transform. 
 
The one time this came up in my campaign (when the PC's wanted to erase the 
knowledge of one of their member's Secret ID from the mind of a villain to 
whom she had inadvertently revealed it), I used the old Mental Paralysis 
power as a model -- 15 pts per 1d6, 1 DEF per 30 points. The user of the 
power states what memory (or memories) he would like to block, anything 
from a single fact (like a PC's Secret ID) to total amnesia. After the 
attack roll was made and the effect rolled, the target got one initial 
attempt to break out. Thereafter, the target got another roll anytime 
something happened that served to jog his memory -- the more sweeping the 
memory loss, the more often something would happen that would cause the 
character to try to break the effect, and in the case of total amnesia, the 
character obviously got to roll every phase (or until he ran out of END!). 
Skills could not be erased via this power, although the memory of having 
such skills might be ("How did you do that?" "I don't know...") 
 
Even though Mental Paralysis has gone the way of Piercing Points and Power 
Destruction, I think the general model still holds up well... although I'm 
sure many will disagree :-). 
 
Jeff Reid 
Morfhis@compuserve.com 
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:17:20 -0400 
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
To: "INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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This discussion is getting a little... heated (nothing new on THIS list, 
eh? :-)), but I decided to throw my two cents in anyway. The following 
system is based on what I have found to work well in my campaign. 
 
Going under the assumption (well founded or not) that most players would 
rather have some form of critical hit system than none at all, I considered 
most of the traditional methods: 
 
        1) Automatic maximum damage -- I have seen this grind scenarios to 
a screeching halt too many times to adopt this method. Villains who can 
laugh of the average roll of the character's attack are usually flattened 
by this, or at the very least Stunned; 
 
        2) Double damage -- same as above, only more so, since double the 
average roll is actually more than the normal maximum damage; 
 
        3) An additional few dice of damage -- this is actually the 
recommended approach of the Hero rules (HRB, pg 146), but I wasn't 
satisfied with it, mainly because it doesn't guarantee that the damage done 
will be significantly higher than normal, and testing showed that the 
player who is given a few extra dice but subsequently rolls very low ends 
up even more frustrated; 
 
        4) One GM allowed us to choose a Hit Location on a natural "3," but 
since I never saw anyone choose any location other than "Head," this was 
really just another way of saying "double damage." 
 
So after determining what "didn't" work for me, I figured out what exactly 
I was looking for, namely a system that guaranteed (or very nearly so) an 
increase in damage, but not so much that it became unreasonable. With this 
in mind, I decided to try simply increasing each die rolled by "1" with the 
proviso that no die could roll higher than "6." To my surprise, this worked 
exceedingly well -- the damage was shifted upwards, but it never exceeded 
the maximum that was theoretically possible if the character rolled all 
sixes. 
 
FI, on a normal 12d6 attack, the average spread would look like: 1 1 2 2 3 
3 4 4 5 5 6 6 = 42 STUN & 12 BODY. Using my system, this would become: 2 2 
3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 6 6 = 52 STUN & 16 BODY. 1's are eliminated and 6's become 
twice as common. 
 
I know this isn't for everyone, since I'm sure a lot of players and GM's 
probably like the occasional unexpected fight-ending critical hit, but it's 
worked like a charm for me. 
 
Jeff Reid 
Morfhis@compuserve.com 
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:17:55 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
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> > Besides, this is about the best way I've seen to represent the MiB 
> >Memory Eraser without it costing way too much for the effectiveness. 
> 
>    You mean, the neuralizer a.k.a. flasher-thingie?  :-] 
 
	Um, yeah.  I just didn't want to say any term that might be 
copywrited.  Yeah, that's it! 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:30:30 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Damage based on 'to-hit' (was: Critical Hits) 
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In a message dated 98-04-07 17:10:02 EDT, you write: 
 
> One can hit with a 3 and do minimum damage, one can hit exactly and do 
>  maximum damage.  This is an artifact of the system - it happens because 
>  the 'to-hit' roll was basically designed as a pass-fail. 
>   
>  If you think of the to hit roll as determining 'did I hit or not', you're 
>  fine, because then the damage dice determine 'how well did I hit'.  If you 
>  look at it as determining 'how well (if at all) did I hit?', then you're 
>  going to have problems with the system as it stands. 
>   
>  There's probably room for an optional rule in this that bases damage done 
>  on how much you beat your target number by, but the vast array of 
>  probabilities daunt me. 
 
I'll throw my own version of 'increased damage based on to-hit roll' in for 
your discussion here. 
 
For one of my characters, I bought a 10d6 Energy Blast (fire) in a game where 
11-12d6 are the norm.  Then, in addition to that, I bought 5 extra dice of 
damage, based upon how much the to-hit roll was made by.  The increments were 
'to-hit roll made by 2, 3, 5, 6, & 8'.  The Limitation for each die was 
decided upon by basing the character's standard OCV with the attack versus the 
campaign's average DCV.  In this case, it was 12-.  Then we simply compared 
the modified rolls to their corresponding Activation rolls to get the Lim 
value.  So 'made by 2' became equivalent to a 10- (-1 1/4) for that die, and 
so on.   
This has been quite fun to play, and it hasn't unbalanced the game at all. 
 
'Lynx 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:52:06 -0400 
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Low Gravity and STR 
To: "INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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> So, if we are in a stable orbit, or interstellar space (ie, weightless), 
do 
> we all get plus one zillion Str? To put it another way, ever hear of 
something 
> called inertia? 
 
Well, actually yes, sort of. What I think you're thinking of as inertia is 
really something different -- inertia describes the tendency of an object 
that is at rest to remain at rest unless (and this is the important part) 
acted upon by an outside force. So if you are hovering absolutely 
motionless in interstellar space alongside a massive object (let's say the 
Titanic - don't ask how it got there), and you kick off of that object, the 
force of that kick will be divided between you and the Titanic. Since you 
have so much less mass, the force will have a much more obvious effect on 
you and you will begin moving in the opposite direction relative to the 
force you applied. However, the Titanic will also begin moving away from 
you, but since it is so much more massive, the effect will be much, much 
smaller. Unless and until some other outside force acts upon it, it will 
keep moving in that direction ad infinitum. 
  
This is of course an incredible simplification, and it far surpasses the 
extent of my limited physics knowledge to calculate how fast the Titanic 
would actually move. 
 
Jeff Reid 
Morfhis@compuserve.com 
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:20:10 -0500 (CDT) 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Subject: Web Site Update... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Hello all... 
 
The Long suffering Herozine Web Site has finally been updated and given a 
face lift. 
 
So surf on over and check it out... 
 
Michael Nunn 
Main 'ziner 
Rising Force Publications 
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist recently updated web site... 
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
"You have never lived until you have almost died.  
And for those who fight for it, 
life has a flavor the protected never know"  
- anonymous 
 
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Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 22:47:50 -0700 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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I think it's a mistake to try to make all these genre's exist in the 
same world and timeline. This is like a multigenre RPG on drugs. 
 
	If understood it correctly, no fantasy hero setting not set in that 
world would be considered publishable. This knocks out huge chunks of 
the fantasy genre. 
	It's a mistake to try to standardize it all this way. It would be like 
trying to put Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, James Bond, Xena, a book on 
the history of Egypt, and a Humphrey Bogart movie all together. 
 
	Some of these things don't mix. Their best left exclusive of each 
other. Genre is about a lot more than when. It's about paradigms of how 
reality works. Even that is only the beginning. 
 
--  
Rook			    
 __ 
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html  Super Hero Links Page 
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/              Super Hero Role 
Playing 
 
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Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 00:48:57 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org, champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net> 
Subject: Re: One Use Luck 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:04 AM 4/8/98 +0000, Theala Sildorian wrote: 
>I suggest you look at the plot points system proposed by Sean Fannon.  
> Essentially, it allows players to earn "plot points" which may be  
>used to pay for unusual special effects at critical moments in the  
>game, such as re rolling bad die rolls, or using Powers in ways which  
>severly bend the rules but are interesting and dramaitc.  Players who  
>don't have any plot points, can still make use of the system by  
>buying Payback Points.  At the end of the session, players "in the  
>hole" have dice rolled by the GM based on the number of Payback  
>Points they have accumulated.  The result is compared to a chart,  
>which Greg Smith has greatly expaned, and I will post on my Web Page  
>if people are interested.  This chart has a list of disadvantages, or  
>other fun complications which then affect the character like: 
> 
>Embarrassing photo and outrageous lie is published in a tabloid about  
>the PC 
>PC obviously has gained or lost 9+ 1d6 pounds 
>PC suffers a week of insomnia (-10 END until he or she gets a good  
>nights sleep). 
 
And while you're at it, you may wish to look at the earlier source for this, 
the "Bimbo Points" system used by the _Superbabes_ roleplaying game. (Good 
idea, bad name ...). IMO, it works best if the GM tailors the chart to fit 
his own campaign (for example, the second result above is primarily 
appropriate to very silly or very un-epic campaigns). 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 02:06:52 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: ICE supplements? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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<< Other than Robot Gladiators, it's the only book I'm really missing out on. 
>> 
 
  We have it (RG). 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 00:46:58 -0700 
To: champ-l@omg.org, champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Eric Chauvin <calicajun@prtcl.com> 
Subject: Re: Supplement request (Cardboard Miniatures) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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David Stallar wrote: 
 
>Some people might think this is goofy, but I'd really like to see more of 
>those cardboard character "miniatures" that came with the 4E GM's screen.  
>Not only are there not enough of them, but they look pretty dated (no more 
>bellbottom pants, please!).  I don't know if there's any need for a 5E GM's 
>screen that could include these, but my group finds them very useful seeing 
>that "real" superhero miniatures are virtually impossible to find (I know 
>Hero made some a long time ago, but they're all gone as far as I know). 
 
I've been making/using cardboard character miniatures for years. I would be 
happy to post & create some for those interested. Eventually I intend on 
having a web site where if requested people will regularly find a update of 
these "cardboard miniatures"  I am unaware as to weather or not I can send 
files to the Hero E-mail list. 
If you are interested You can E-mail me or post a response on the list. If 
I receive enough responses I will make this a pet project of mine. 
____________________________ 
GET-EM!!! THAT'S THE PLAN?!? 
--------------------------------------------- 
Eric Chauvin 
calicajun@prtcl.com 
 
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Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 00:46:58 -0700 
To: champ-l@omg.org, champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Eric Chauvin <calicajun@prtcl.com> 
Subject: Re: Supplement request (Cardboard Miniatures) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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David Stallar wrote: 
 
>Some people might think this is goofy, but I'd really like to see more of 
>those cardboard character "miniatures" that came with the 4E GM's screen.  
>Not only are there not enough of them, but they look pretty dated (no more 
>bellbottom pants, please!).  I don't know if there's any need for a 5E GM's 
>screen that could include these, but my group finds them very useful seeing 
>that "real" superhero miniatures are virtually impossible to find (I know 
>Hero made some a long time ago, but they're all gone as far as I know). 
 
I've been making/using cardboard character miniatures for years. I would be 
happy to post & create some for those interested. Eventually I intend on 
having a web site where if requested people will regularly find a update of 
these "cardboard miniatures"  I am unaware as to weather or not I can send 
files to the Hero E-mail list. 
If you are interested You can E-mail me or post a response on the list. If 
I receive enough responses I will make this a pet project of mine. 
____________________________ 
GET-EM!!! THAT'S THE PLAN?!? 
--------------------------------------------- 
Eric Chauvin 
calicajun@prtcl.com 
 
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Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 01:26:01 -0700 
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com> 
Organization: None 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Supplement reviews? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> At 03:57 PM 4/7/1998 -0400, David B Stallard wrote: 
> >Could someone post a brief review of the Allies book?  It sounds 
> >interesting, but it seems like it would be a lesser used book in my 
> >collection, since I don't think I would want to crowd the universe with NPC 
> >heroes that could steal the spotlight from the PC group. 
> 
>    That problem is nicely worked around; most of the groups and heroes in 
> there have hooks that could bring them into directly conflict with PCs.  In 
> fact, there's only one group in there that would probably steal the 
> spotlight from the PCs, and that's their conflict hook (the Flashmen like 
> to take more public credit than they're due, and they're very good at it too). 
>    There's also Executive Sanction, a low-powered group of Feds; the Posse, 
> a bunch of killer vigilantes; the Braverman Foundation, a literal circus 
> full of bricks; Zen Team, a corporate-owned sentai; the Redeemed, a bunch 
> of ex-supervillains trying to go straight; and the Cyberknights, a more 
> classic, if decidedly high-tech, group of heroes.  Solo heroes cover a wide 
> range from the comedic to the horrific, and even a couple with political 
> overtones. 
>    On the whole, it's a very well-planned and well-organized book with a 
> lot more in the way of story hooks than one would expect from a volume of 
> superheroes.  And most of the groups (Executive Sanction, Zen Team, the 
> Redeemed, and the Cyberknights) are potentially good resources for heroes, 
> too. 
> 
> >I'd also appreciate the same for the High-Tech Enemies book and the Mutant 
> >File book, if anyone has the time and inclination.  I've pretty much 
> >decided that these are on the "must have" list, but I'd still like to hear 
> >about 'em. 
> 
>    High-Tech Enemies is a very good book (I'd call it just short of 
> "excellent") for any GM who wants to run a lot of high-tech adventures; if 
> you can use Corporations and Allies as companion books (the latter for the 
> Cyberknights), you can even fun an all-out high-tech superhero campaign. 
> Its only real weaknesses are the somewhat inflated power levels of the 
> villains, and the lack of real story hooks. 
>    The Mutant File is arguably overpowered for most campaigns, particularly 
> the updating of Genocide.  (In Sean Fannon's defense, much of the "power 
> inflation" in this book was reportedly mandated by the Hero Guys, though 
> some of it may have been an overreaction to said mandate.)  The actual 
> mutants in this book, though, are either lower-powered or meant to be used 
> in smaller groups; this makes it much easier for lower-powered PCs. 
> 
> >Do any of these books offer explicit adventure ideas (as opposed to hinting 
> >at them in character backgrounds), or are they straight character writeups 
> >similar to Classic Enemies? 
> 
>    You get a little of each.  There's a good number of good story hooks in 
> both Allies and The Mutant File, and all three books have one or two short 
> adventure write-ups in the back.  (Allies also has a page and a half of 
> quick one-paragraph suggestions.) 
> 
> >I'm just going through the out-of-print-but-still-available stuff to see 
> >what I don't want to slip by, so I might ask for a few other "book reviews" 
> >later.... 
> 
>    Go ahead.  I own everything from the BBB through Watchers of the Dragon, 
> so just ask away. 
>    And, of course, others will have differing opinions. 
> --- 
> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
> Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
I have at one time (and sometimes twice owned everything except invasion from 
below and wings of the valkyrie.... 
By the by Bob, where are you based? 
 
Just wondering 
 
Chad 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 05:35:51 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: mlnunn@blue.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Subject: Wings of the Valkries 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Wings is the only Hero book I don't have, I have been told I saw a copy once 
:-)  
does any one have a copy that they might want to part with? 
 
Michael 
 
Rising Force Publications 
Herozine The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist recently updated web site... 
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
"You have never lived until you have almost died.  
And for those who fight for it, 
life has a flavor the protected never know"  
- anonymous 
 
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Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 04:48:26 -0600 
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Wings of the Valkries 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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Michael Nunn wrote: 
>  
> Wings is the only Hero book I don't have, I have been told I saw a copy once 
> :-) 
> does any one have a copy that they might want to part with? 
>  
> Michael 
>  
REsponding privately because this is illeagle (formally) but not really 
bad... 
 
I'd be willing to photocopy my copy for the price of the copy and the 
mailing, if it is the information you are looking for rather than the 
owning of the adventure. 
 
--  
 
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages, 
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and 
goes through their pockets.    -- Eddy Peters 
 
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Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 04:53:06 -0600 
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Wings of the Valkries 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Forgot to look at the reply to line.... 
 
As Mhoram dancing aroung the fire naked with egg on his face to burn the 
shame and embaressment from his soul.... 
--  
 
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages, 
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and 
goes through their pockets.    -- Eddy Peters 
 
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Comments: Authenticated sender is <theala@shore.intercom.net> 
From: "Theala Sildorian" <theala@shore.intercom.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 11:04:47 +0000 
Subject: Re: One Use Luck 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> I have been playing with the idea of something like this for a long 
> time. I am a fan of the games where you can use Karma points or 
> experience to change a die roll. 
 
I suggest you look at the plot points system proposed by Sean Fannon.  
 Essentially, it allows players to earn "plot points" which may be  
used to pay for unusual special effects at critical moments in the  
game, such as re rolling bad die rolls, or using Powers in ways which  
severly bend the rules but are interesting and dramaitc.  Players who  
don't have any plot points, can still make use of the system by  
buying Payback Points.  At the end of the session, players "in the  
hole" have dice rolled by the GM based on the number of Payback  
Points they have accumulated.  The result is compared to a chart,  
which Greg Smith has greatly expaned, and I will post on my Web Page  
if people are interested.  This chart has a list of disadvantages, or  
other fun complications which then affect the character like: 
 
Embarrassing photo and outrageous lie is published in a tabloid about  
the PC 
 
PC obviously has gained or lost 9+ 1d6 pounds 
 
PC suffers a week of insomnia (-10 END until he or she gets a good  
nights sleep). 
 
This isn't quite Karma, but it allows for a better use of Luck and  
Unluck in that both are rolled at the beginning of the session and  
the BODY of the dice become either Plot Points or Payback Points. 
 
It's an interesting system, well worth a look.  If you want a quick  
look at the system, hit  
http://www.io.com/~wileyc/champ/plotpoints.html.  I'll try to get the  
revised tables posted on my Web Page sometime in the next day or so,  
if I can get my durned scanner working again <sigh> 
 
 
Amy 
 
---------------- 
Theala Sildorian 
http://www.intercom.net/user/theala/hero.html 
Home of the Unofficial Champions Home Page! 
 
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Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 07:02:07 -0500 
To: hero-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Reply = Reply To All ? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 20 
 
What's happened here?  In the last couple of days I've noticed that hitting 
Reply, which used to create an off-list response, now sends my response 
back to the list.  From what I've seen in the list traffic, I think I may 
not be the only one this is happening to. 
 
Damon 
 
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Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 05:28:50 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:17 PM 4/7/1998 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
>> > Besides, this is about the best way I've seen to represent the MiB 
>> >Memory Eraser without it costing way too much for the effectiveness. 
>> 
>>    You mean, the neuralizer a.k.a. flasher-thingie?  :-] 
> 
> Um, yeah.  I just didn't want to say any term that might be 
>copywrited.  Yeah, that's it! 
 
   Aw heck, this is a discussion list.  We can even mention Sherlock Holmes 
or "That Other Game" if we want to.  (I just avoid mentioned the name of 
that fantasy game that used to come in a three-volume set and whose 
publisher was recently bought up by a collectible card game maker because 
profanity cheapens the speaker.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:28:51 +1000 
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---------- 
> From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
> Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
> Date: Wednesday, April 08, 1998 3:47 PM 
>  
> I think it's a mistake to try to make all these genre's exist in the 
> same world and timeline. This is like a multigenre RPG on drugs. 
>  
> 	If understood it correctly, no fantasy hero setting not set in that 
> world would be considered publishable. This knocks out huge chunks of 
> the fantasy genre. 
> 	It's a mistake to try to standardize it all this way. It would be like 
> trying to put Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, James Bond, Xena, a book on 
> the history of Egypt, and a Humphrey Bogart movie all together. 
>  
> 	Some of these things don't mix. Their best left exclusive of each 
> other. Genre is about a lot more than when. It's about paradigms of how 
> reality works. Even that is only the beginning. 
>  
 
Not always. Thinking of genre in such a structuralist manner only restricts 
the nature of setting- 
that is a specific storyline within the genre. It might sound nice, but 
it's more fun to leave it  
open, especially since any such cmbination which suceeded would be a 
*classic*- just look at  
OTE and the the suprisingly unrecognised NEXUS for examples of how fun this 
can be, and not  
just becasue you get to sit around pointing out the genre-synthesis. 
When genre combines it creates a new entity- different, but still valid, 
and more original than 
an operationalised perspective of a conventional genre. 
In a few weeks i'll be launching a humble little page based 
around Core Alpha, an organisation which not only crosses genre- but  
game formats as well. I'll be doing up the character bios in HERO format  
and most likely doing a PBEM as well, so odds are you lot will hear  
some wierd quesitons about genre concepts. . oh, and blowing stuff up, too. 
 
 
 
 
 
> --  
> Rook			    
>  __ 
> /.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html  Super Hero Links Page 
> \(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/              Super Hero Role 
> Playing 
 
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Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 05:42:41 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:17 AM 4/8/1998 -0400, Jeff M. Reid wrote: 
>The one time this came up in my campaign (when the PC's wanted to erase the 
>knowledge of one of their member's Secret ID from the mind of a villain to 
>whom she had inadvertently revealed it), I used the old Mental Paralysis 
>power as a model -- 15 pts per 1d6, 1 DEF per 30 points. The user of the 
>power states what memory (or memories) he would like to block, anything 
>from a single fact (like a PC's Secret ID) to total amnesia. After the 
>attack roll was made and the effect rolled, the target got one initial 
>attempt to break out. Thereafter, the target got another roll anytime 
>something happened that served to jog his memory -- the more sweeping the 
>memory loss, the more often something would happen that would cause the 
>character to try to break the effect, and in the case of total amnesia, the 
>character obviously got to roll every phase (or until he ran out of END!). 
>Skills could not be erased via this power, although the memory of having 
>such skills might be ("How did you do that?" "I don't know...") 
 
   Now, *that's* an interesting way of modelling it.  It certainly offers a 
different dynamic than any of the other constructs (Telepathy, Mind 
Control, Transform, or Dispel). 
 
>Even though Mental Paralysis has gone the way of Piercing Points and Power 
>Destruction, I think the general model still holds up well... although I'm 
>sure many will disagree :-). 
 
   Mental Paralysis came back in TUM, though it's now built by adding three 
Advantages (BOECV and two special constructs) to Entangle for a total 
Advantage value of +1 3/4.  The two "specials" are "Transparent to Physical 
Attacks" (a form borrowed from Force Wall; the thing is vulnerable only to 
Ego Attacks and BOECV attack powers, taking BODY even if the Power in 
question doesn't normally do BODY damage) for +1/4, and "Works Against EGO, 
Not STR" for +1/2. 
   Personally, I prefer a flat +2 "Mental Paralysis" Advantage.  It's 
smoother mathematically, and can take into account such things as 
invisibile power effects, Mental Awareness, and so forth.  Just stuffing 
these things into a package like this makes it nice and neat, and easy to 
use. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Subject: Re: Reply = Reply To All ? 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:47:29 -0400 (EDT) 
From: "Matthew James Korth" <korthmat@pilot.msu.edu> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>What's happened here?  In the last couple of days I've noticed that hitting 
>Reply, which used to create an off-list response, now sends my response 
>back to the list.  From what I've seen in the list traffic, I think I may 
>not be the only one this is happening to. 
 
Someone (John, presumably, since he's the list admin) set Reply-To: to the 
list.  Looks like it's time to pull out the Reply-To: procmail filter again. 
 
Anyone remember what happened when someone left the list without (a) telling 
Geoff and (b) unsubscribing, when Bob Quinlan had Red October's echo of the 
list setting Reply-To:?  That wonderful mail loop? 
 
Please, *remove* that header. 
 
--M 
 
-- 
korthmat@pilot.msu.edu  http://pilot.msu.edu/~korthmat 
Charter Member of the Complaining Censorious Bastards Club 
(this means I'll report any UCE I receive to the sender's ISP) 
Member of the USENET Cabal (TINC!), BOFH-in-training 
 
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Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 06:07:59 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Supplement reviews? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 01:26 AM 4/8/1998 -0700, Chad Riley wrote: 
>>    Go ahead.  I own everything from the BBB through Watchers of the Dragon, 
>> so just ask away. 
>>    And, of course, others will have differing opinions. 
> 
>I have at one time (and sometimes twice owned everything except invasion from 
>below and wings of the valkyrie.... 
>By the by Bob, where are you based? 
> 
>Just wondering 
 
   Corvallis, Oregon (just a Quick Trip from Chris Taylor's place in Salem). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Wings of the Valkries 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 06:13:13 -0700 (PDT) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
	I recently purchased a copy from a store in S. Carolina that claims 
to have several in stock, hidden in back; to be sold on request only. 
 
	While I don't want to give out their name, I will suggest this: 
 
put up a WTB add in rec.games.frp.marketplace for all the hero stuff you 
want. 
	I bought Lands of Mystery through them at the same time. 
 
 
>  
> Wings is the only Hero book I don't have, I have been told I saw a copy once 
> :-)  
> does any one have a copy that they might want to part with? 
 
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Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 06:18:13 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:47 PM 4/7/1998 -0700, Rook wrote: 
>I think it's a mistake to try to make all these genre's exist in the 
>same world and timeline. This is like a multigenre RPG on drugs. 
> 
> If understood it correctly, no fantasy hero setting not set in that 
>world would be considered publishable. This knocks out huge chunks of 
>the fantasy genre. 
 
   No, I think you're misunderstanding.  There's already a Fuzion-based 
fantasy setting in the works that doesn't fit into the Hero Universe; Sean 
Fannon's Shaintar campaign book is well under way.  All the timeline does 
is show what fantasy, science fiction, and other settings can be considered 
a part of the Hero Universe, meaning that events in one can affect events 
in another. 
   For example, Atlantean Age heroes are in rebellion against Sharna-Gorak 
the Destroyer; this same character, now known as Doctor Destroyer, is a 
problem for New Millenium heroes as well (at least, if memory serves that 
this is the same guy; I do not yet own the book).  Sharna-Gorak could also 
be a problem for PCs in the Age of Heroes, and could experience a 
resurgence in the period of the Galactic Champions to become an ongoing 
menace thereafter. 
   Likewise, Mechanon could become dormant by the end of the New Millennium 
period (or, at the latest, the end of the "Cyber Hero" period), only to be 
reactivated in time for the Galactic Champions -- or, Mechanon could turn 
out to be the Emperor in the Foundation of Empire period. 
   The bugs from the Alien Wars period could have a resurgence during the 
Interstellar Dark Ages, and likewise pose a problem for the Galactic 
Champions and even return in the period of Sorcerer's Galaxy. 
 
> It's a mistake to try to standardize it all this way. It would be like 
>trying to put Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, James Bond, Xena, a book on 
>the history of Egypt, and a Humphrey Bogart movie all together. 
 
   Such a project might have actually worked, had Tolkien, Lucas, Fleming, 
Raimi, the author of the Egyptian novel (it would have to be a novel, since 
we're not role-playing historical fact here), and the producer of the 
Bogart movie all worked to make it fit from the beginning. 
 
> Some of these things don't mix. Their best left exclusive of each 
>other. Genre is about a lot more than when. It's about paradigms of how 
>reality works. Even that is only the beginning. 
 
   Have you actually taken a look at the timeline, and the nature of the 
Hero Universe?  "How reality works" actually shifts over time, with a 
reasonably plausible explanation of how.  (However, it probably would have 
been helpful to include that explanation, including a paragraph on the 
nature of Gate Keys, in the Hero Universe write-up.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Reply = Reply To All ? 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 06:18:43 -0700 (PDT) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> >What's happened here?  In the last couple of days I've noticed that hitting 
> >Reply, which used to create an off-list response, now sends my response 
> >back to the list.  From what I've seen in the list traffic, I think I may 
> >not be the only one this is happening to. 
>  
> Someone (John, presumably, since he's the list admin) set Reply-To: to the 
> list.  Looks like it's time to pull out the Reply-To: procmail filter again. 
>  
	Personally I think it' great. Having to manually type in the list's 
name on every message was a major pain. The amount of stuff I send to people 
privately from this list is trivial, and it was a waste the other way. 
 
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Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 06:20:23 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Supplement request (Cardboard Miniatures) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:46 AM 4/8/1998 -0700, Eric Chauvin wrote: 
>I've been making/using cardboard character miniatures for years. I would be 
>happy to post & create some for those interested. Eventually I intend on 
>having a web site where if requested people will regularly find a update of 
>these "cardboard miniatures"  I am unaware as to weather or not I can send 
>files to the Hero E-mail list. 
>If you are interested You can E-mail me or post a response on the list. If 
>I receive enough responses I will make this a pet project of mine. 
 
   Please don't send files to the list.  It forces downloads on people that 
don't want them (or, at least, weren't expecting them).  Instead, offer to 
email them directly to people who are interested, until you can get that 
website in place. 
   I don't think I'd want to be among those receiving these via email, but 
I'd be very interested in seeing what you can do on a website.  (If the 
Hero Guys don't mind, perhaps you could start with some of the more popular 
Champions Universe villains, at least until they can get official ones out.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Subject: Re: Reply = Reply To All ? 
To: hero-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:39:04 -0400 (EDT) 
From: "Matthew James Korth" <korthmat@pilot.msu.edu> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>> >What's happened here?  In the last couple of days I've noticed that hitting 
>> >Reply, which used to create an off-list response, now sends my response 
>> >back to the list.  From what I've seen in the list traffic, I think I may 
>> >not be the only one this is happening to. 
>> 
>> Someone (John, presumably, since he's the list admin) set Reply-To: to the 
>> list.  Looks like it's time to pull out the Reply-To: procmail filter again. 
>> 
>    Personally I think it' great. Having to manually type in the list's 
>name on every message was a major pain. The amount of stuff I send to people 
>privately from this list is trivial, and it was a waste the other way. 
 
This is one of the few times I've ever agreed with Rat about anything. 
It's convenient, yes.  It's also a Bad Thing. 
 
If someone forgets to unsubscribe before their account is removed, the 
"no such user" bounces will not *necessarily* go to the list owner; not every 
site honors the Errors-To: header.  They'll most likely go to the list 
instead.  This has happened to the Hero List before. 
 
It's also possible for someone to set up an autoresponder (i.e. the 
vacation program on Unix machines) if they're going to be away for a while. 
Unless they *specifically* configure the program *not* to reply to the 
list, it will... for every list mail it gets. 
 
Either way, you wind up not only with the Hero List mail, you wind up with 
the autoresponses (or bounces), and the autoresponses to the autoresponses, 
and the autoresponses to the autoresponses to the... you get the point. 
I'd rather not have this happen again with the Hero list running around 75 
messages a day... 
 
--M 
 
-- 
korthmat@pilot.msu.edu  http://pilot.msu.edu/~korthmat 
Charter Member of the Complaining Censorious Bastards Club 
(this means I'll report any UCE I receive to the sender's ISP) 
Member of the USENET Cabal (TINC!), BOFH-in-training 
 
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From: Rog <uraeus@mail3.bunt.com> 
To: "'Champions Mail List'" <CHAMP-L@sysabend.org> 
Subject: HERO Dream Park 
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:42:39 +0200 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
I was wondering if anyone has run a Dream Park game using the  
HERO system.  If so, I would like to hear about it; how it went, 
pluses/minuses, difficulties, etc. 
 
I am thinking about trying to run a game in this setting and think 
HERO rules might work well for this.  So any enlightenment and/or 
material anyone might have could save me some from reworking 
tilled soil (so to speak). 
 
-Roger 
 
 
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Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 08:44:03 -0500 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Organization: Red Bow Antiques 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: 14 years ago tomorrow 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Lizard wrote: 
>  
> At 01:40 PM 4/7/98 -0700, Miq Millman wrote: 
> >Just an early birthday greeting, here. 
> >How's things?  Have you and Zoe set a date yet? 
> >Chromatic Dragon sends his best as well on this joint anniversay occaision. 
 
 
> Misdirected mail. Gotta love it. 
 
 
Actually, I am wondering who Zoe is and if they set a date or not. 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:01:23 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> I think it's a mistake to try to make all these genre's exist in the 
> same world and timeline. This is like a multigenre RPG on drugs. 
 
	I had similar thoughts. 
 
> 	If understood it correctly, no fantasy hero setting not set in that 
> world would be considered publishable. This knocks out huge chunks of 
> the fantasy genre. 
 
	Right.  Even with the various "apocolypses", that doesn't leave 
much room for the huge variety of potential campaign worlds.  Or movement 
beteen universes unless one considers merely time travel. 
 
	And, come to think about it, time travel stories can be seriously 
messed up.  If someone goes back to the stone age, or further back into 
pre-human times, they will be in for some huge shocks.  I rather like a 
lot of the real-world prehistory that has been obsoleted. 
 
> 	It's a mistake to try to standardize it all this way. It would be like 
> trying to put Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, James Bond, Xena, a book on 
> the history of Egypt, and a Humphrey Bogart movie all together. 
 
	Well, some things can work together, and work together well. 
There's no reason a Mythic Greece (Xena), Humphry Bogart (Justice, Inc), 
James Bond (Espionage?) and an Egyptian campaign (new suppliment) can't 
work together.  Mixing in the various other wars and historical settings 
along with a low-key fantasy setting even works rather well. 
 
	It's also not hard to accept a future Cyberpunk line, though I'd 
push it a few more years into the future than it currently is.  The Space 
Stories afterward are good, though they leave a lot of room in between 
while still seeming to needlessly tie down any future-set campaign. 
 
> 	Some of these things don't mix. Their best left exclusive of each 
> other. Genre is about a lot more than when. It's about paradigms of how 
> reality works. Even that is only the beginning. 
 
	If you look at my list of what works together, it all assumes a 
potential world much like our own -- just a little more heroic. 
 
	Some of the High Fantasy would work much better in alternate 
(still set) Universes and Timelines. 
 
	Actually, didn't FASA put together its three major products? 
Wasn't Earthdawn on the same world as Shadowrun, the latter being a 
re-awakening of the magic of the former.  And wasn't Battletech just 1000 
or so years after Shadowrun? 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 07:02:40 -0700 (PDT) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Reply = champ-l@sysabend.org 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
---Matthew James Korth  wrote: 
> 
> >What's happened here?  In the last couple of days I've noticed that 
hitting 
> >Reply, which used to create an off-list response, now sends my 
response 
> >back to the list.  From what I've seen in the list traffic, I think 
I may 
> >not be the only one this is happening to. 
>  
> Someone (John, presumably, since he's the list admin) set Reply-To: 
to the 
> list.  Looks like it's time to pull out the Reply-To: procmail 
filter again. 
>  
> Anyone remember what happened when someone left the list without (a) 
telling 
> Geoff and (b) unsubscribing, when Bob Quinlan had Red October's echo 
of the 
> list setting Reply-To:?  That wonderful mail loop? 
>  
> Please, *remove* that header. 
 
Since changing the listserver to put the list address into the 
reply-to field there have been (like there was before doing so) 
several email adresses that "died".  It happenes continuously.  I 
average about 100 bounced messages a day.  How many have actually fed 
back to the list? 
 
Be that as it may, I'll leave it up the list at large.  Give me your 
opinion.  Let me know (via either champ-l-owner@sysabend.org or 
john.desmarais@ibm.net - let's not bog the list down with it) whether 
you want the sender's name in the reply-to field or the list address.  
I'll change things accordingly once I've gotten enough opinions to 
form a concensus. 
 
 
-=>John Desmarais 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 07:08:10 -0700 (PDT) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
---"Tim R. Gilberg"  wrote: 
>  
> 	Actually, didn't FASA put together its three major products? 
> Wasn't Earthdawn on the same world as Shadowrun, the latter being a 
> re-awakening of the magic of the former.  And wasn't Battletech just 
1000 
> or so years after Shadowrun? 
>  
 
I never heard anything about Battletech being related (never read much 
of the game), but I do remember something about Earthdawn and 
Shadowrun being related somehow (heck, just look at the critters in 
each, lots of duplicates). 
 
-=>John Desmarais 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Reply = champ-l@sysabend.org 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 07:29:01 -0700 (PDT) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>  
> Since changing the listserver to put the list address into the 
> reply-to field there have been (like there was before doing so) 
> several email adresses that "died".  It happenes continuously.  I 
> average about 100 bounced messages a day.  How many have actually fed 
> back to the list? 
> 
	None. 
  
> Be that as it may, I'll leave it up the list at large.  Give me your 
> opinion.  Let me know (via either champ-l-owner@sysabend.org or 
> john.desmarais@ibm.net - let's not bog the list down with it) whether 
> you want the sender's name in the reply-to field or the list address.  
> I'll change things accordingly once I've gotten enough opinions to 
> form a concensus. 
 
	I can't see why anyone would prefer the other method if the bounced 
issue is not a problem. 
 
	I belong to several mailing lists, 3 of which are busier than this, 
all of which do the reply to. Never had a problem once. 
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 07:36:48 -0700 (PDT) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>  
>  
> > I think it's a mistake to try to make all these genre's exist in the 
> > same world and timeline. This is like a multigenre RPG on drugs. 
>  
> > 	It's a mistake to try to standardize it all this way. It would be like 
> > trying to put Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, James Bond, Xena, a book on 
> > the history of Egypt, and a Humphrey Bogart movie all together. 
>  
> 	Well, some things can work together, and work together well. 
> There's no reason a Mythic Greece (Xena), Humphry Bogart (Justice, Inc), 
> James Bond (Espionage?) and an Egyptian campaign (new suppliment) can't 
> work together.  Mixing in the various other wars and historical settings 
> along with a low-key fantasy setting even works rather well. 
 
	Actually, I think it would end up coming out like Xena. 
Episode 1, PC' meet Hercules 
2: they meet Ceasar 
3: they witness Jesus' birth 
4: they bump in Columbus 
5: they battel Nazi's 
6: They battle Aries 
7: they try to kill a Chinese Emperor 
 
	All mixed up, no clue about what genre they should be in. 
Work's on a fantasy version of Babe Watch on the tele, but I stopped 
being able to play or GM in this setting after middle school. Around the 
same time the minimum acceptable stat for a PC went below 18 in my group. :) 
	(And, yes, saying minimum was not a typo) 
 
	Multigenre on drugs. :) 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:36:59 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On 7 Apr 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> >>>>> "S" == Sakura <jeffj@io.com> writes: 
>  
> S> Unfortunately (and this is what Bob is trying to fix, I think), said 
> S> 'critical damage' system - and indeed, the HERO damage system in general 
> S> - has very little to do with the skill of the attacker. 
>  
> Guess what?  It is possible to hit someone in the head with a .44Mag and 
> barely scratch him.  Or the same weapon can kill him instantly with a head 
> shot.   
 
Yes,, very true. I never said otherwise. 
 
> Which result actually happens has nothing to do with the skill of 
> the attacker.   
 
Here's where I disagree.  I would argue that a person with higher skill 
would be more likely to get the 'head splattered like an overripe melon' 
result than someone who had just picked up the gun for the first time. 
He's going to know how to aim, how to compensate for the 'kick' of the 
gun, etc, and thus is more likely to score a dead-on hit than the novice. 
 
Since HERO's 'to-hit' roll means 'did I hit at all', assuming both people 
hit, they have equal chance of doing lousy damage or great damage.  I 
think that the skilled shooter will not only hit more often, but hit with 
more effect, whereas in HERO, he will just hit more often. 
 
The only thing that comes anywhere close to modeling this in HERO is the 
ability to trade combat levels for damage (assuming your GM even lets you 
do that for ranged combat) - but that has the problem of decreasing your 
overall accuracy, since you have to assign them before you make the 
attack.  
 
 
Here's something I'm going to toss off of the top of my head, just to see 
how unbalancing it is.   
 
* For every 2 points you make your 'to hit' roll by, you do an extra DC of 
  damage. 
 
This would basically be similar to the use of CSLs now, except that you 
could 'trade them in' for damage /after/ the roll was made instead of 
before. 
 
Campaign limits would have to be adjusted - the base DC of a power would 
need to be low compared to the base defenses.  Probably, the average power 
on an average roll should be completely blocked by the average defense. 
 
Obviously, the idea needs more polish, but it does represent the fact that 
characters with more skill are going to do more damage. 
 
J 
 
"One equal temper of heroic hearts,              http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will              jeffj@io.com 
 To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."    - Tennyson, "Ulysses" 
 
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From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Wings of the Valkries 
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 10:49:43 -0400 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> I recently purchased a copy from a store in S. Carolina that claims 
>to have several in stock, hidden in back; to be sold on request only. 
> 
> While I don't want to give out their name, I will suggest this: 
> 
>put up a WTB add in rec.games.frp.marketplace for all the hero stuff you 
>want. 
> I bought Lands of Mystery through them at the same time. 
 
 
POSSIBLE SPOILERS (as if everyone doesn't already know what Wings is 
about...) 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Y'know, that adventure got a really bad rap; I can't even begin to see how 
people thought it was Anti-Semetic. Yes, the characters had to choose to 
save Hitler order to keep history the way it's supposed to be. This is a 
staple of time travel science fiction! When I ran that adventure, the 
characters didn't let him get off unscathed though. One of the heroes, a Big 
guy named Atlas, decked him just before the heroes left! I used this as the 
historical justification for why Hitler spent so much time and money trying 
to create his own supers, that he crippled the Nazi A-Bomb effort, thus 
preventing them, with other factors of course, from winning the war. Believe 
me, none of the heroes in the group were unaffected by the choice they had 
to make. It was the first time ever that I saw actual ROLEPLAYING in the 
group. 
 
Allen Shock 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:57:46 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Supplement request (Cardboard Miniatures) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> I've been making/using cardboard character miniatures for years. I would be 
> happy to post & create some for those interested. Eventually I intend on 
> having a web site where if requested people will regularly find a update of 
> these "cardboard miniatures"  I am unaware as to weather or not I can send 
> files to the Hero E-mail list. 
> If you are interested You can E-mail me or post a response on the list. If 
> I receive enough responses I will make this a pet project of mine. 
 
	Yes!  Something I can print out and even glue to poster board 
would be great. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 10:02:24 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Reply = Reply To All ? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> > Someone (John, presumably, since he's the list admin) set Reply-To: to the 
> > list.  Looks like it's time to pull out the Reply-To: procmail filter again. 
> > 
> 	Personally I think it' great. Having to manually type in the list's 
> name on every message was a major pain. The amount of stuff I send to people 
> privately from this list is trivial, and it was a waste the other way. 
 
	Yes, but the point is it is a much less robust way of doing 
things.  Little problems become big ones very quickly. 
 
	As it, it isn't a problem to reply-to-all and delete the 
non-wanted address(es).  Heck, with pine, it's only a simple ^K command. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:08:03 -0700 (PDT) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Re: Supplement request (Cardboard Miniatures) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
---Eric Chauvin  wrote: 
> 
> David Stallar wrote: 
>  
> >Some people might think this is goofy, but I'd really like to see 
more of 
> >those cardboard character "miniatures" that came with the 4E GM's 
screen.  
> >Not only are there not enough of them, but they look pretty dated 
(no more 
> >bellbottom pants, please!).  I don't know if there's any need for a 
5E GM's 
> >screen that could include these, but my group finds them very 
useful seeing 
> >that "real" superhero miniatures are virtually impossible to find 
(I know 
> >Hero made some a long time ago, but they're all gone as far as I 
know). 
>  
> I've been making/using cardboard character miniatures for years. I 
would be 
> happy to post & create some for those interested. Eventually I 
intend on 
> having a web site where if requested people will regularly find a 
update of 
> these "cardboard miniatures"  I am unaware as to weather or not I 
can send 
> files to the Hero E-mail list. 
> If you are interested You can E-mail me or post a response on the 
list. If 
> I receive enough responses I will make this a pet project of mine. 
 
A friend of mine down south has done the same thing (hundreds of 
little .TIF files).  He's expressed a willingnes to make them 
available to the folks on the list, so I'm waiting for him to send 
them to me so that I can post them up on my champions web site. I'll 
drop a note on list when they're available. 
 
 
== 
 
     John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
============================================ 
Got a question about the list?  Just ask.  Or, you can go 
look over at www.sysabend.org/champions.  I've been 
slowly posting information about the list there. 
 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 10:09:03 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> > 	Actually, didn't FASA put together its three major products? 
> > Wasn't Earthdawn on the same world as Shadowrun, the latter being a 
> > re-awakening of the magic of the former.  And wasn't Battletech just 
> 1000 
> > or so years after Shadowrun? 
> > 
> 
> I never heard anything about Battletech being related (never read much 
> of the game), but I do remember something about Earthdawn and 
> Shadowrun being related somehow (heck, just look at the critters in 
> each, lots of duplicates). 
 
	I don't know if Battletech was said or not, but the world would 
fit just fine with the other two.  Magic would just have receeded again. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net 
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 08:26:44 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: Misdirected mail 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>>How's things?  Have you and Zoe set a date yet? 
>> 
>>Chromatic Dragon sends his best as well on this joint anniversay occaision. 
>> 
>Misdirected mail. Gotta love it. 
 
The ironic thing is that I know a Zoie and wouldnt mind setting a date with 
her LOL 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Reply = Reply To All ? 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:29:13 -0700 (PDT) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>>> Someone (John, presumably, since he's the list admin) set Reply-To: to the 
>>> list.  Looks like it's time to pull out the Reply-To: procmail filter again. 
>> 	Personally I think it' great. Having to manually type in the list's 
>> name on every message was a major pain. The amount of stuff I send to people 
>> privately from this list is trivial, and it was a waste the other way. 
>  
> 	As it, it isn't a problem to reply-to-all and delete the 
> non-wanted address(es).  Heck, with pine, it's only a simple ^K command. 
> 
	No such function here. I have to write it in manually from memory 
every time on the old method. Version of elm we've got here has no reply to all 
that I've as yet found.  
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: One Use Luck 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:39:14 -0700 (PDT) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> > I have been playing with the idea of something like this for a long 
> > time. I am a fan of the games where you can use Karma points or 
> > experience to change a die roll. 
>  
> I suggest you look at the plot points system proposed by Sean Fannon.  
>  
> It's an interesting system, well worth a look.  If you want a quick  
> look at the system, hit  
> http://www.io.com/~wileyc/champ/plotpoints.html.  I'll try to get the  
 
	I'll have to take a look soon. 
 
My own new Karma rules, using luck/unluck, are at: 
 
	http://www.infinex.com/~rook/stryfe/FH/magic.html 
 
as a subset of my magic rules for FH when used in my world... 
 
	It's all just been typed out of my head for the first time in 
the 15 years I've had that world... 
	So it's a bit brief and as yet lacking refinement. But the 
essense is there. 
 
Rook ?U ?k 1b  'no giga pets were harmed in the production of this message'. 
 __ 
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html	Super Hero Links 
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/			Super Hero Roleplay 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:45:12 -0700 (PDT) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Re: Reply = Reply To All ? 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
---Brian Wong  wrote: 
> 
> >>> Someone (John, presumably, since he's the list admin) set 
Reply-To: to the 
> >>> list.  Looks like it's time to pull out the Reply-To: procmail 
filter again. 
> >> 	Personally I think it' great. Having to manually type in the 
list's 
> >> name on every message was a major pain. The amount of stuff I 
send to people 
> >> privately from this list is trivial, and it was a waste the other 
way. 
> >  
> > 	As it, it isn't a problem to reply-to-all and delete the 
> > non-wanted address(es).  Heck, with pine, it's only a simple ^K 
command. 
> > 
> 	No such function here. I have to write it in manually from memory 
> every time on the old method. Version of elm we've got here has no 
reply to all 
> that I've as yet found.  
>  
 
It's been many years since I used elm, but I think elm refers to it as 
a g)roup reply.  You'll find this option in the alternate menu (the 
one for "advanced users"). 
 
It looks something like this: 
 
|=pipe, !=shell, ?=help, <n>=set current to n, /=search pattern 
a)lias, C)copy, c)hange folder, d)elete, e)dit, f)orward, g)roup 
reply, m)ail, 
n)ext, o)ptions, p)rint, r)eply, s)ave, t)ag, q)uit, u)ndelete, or 
e(x)it 
 
 
-=>John Desmarais 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 11:56:15 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  Re: Hero Universe 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
In a message dated 4/7/98 10:53:36 PM, you wrote: 
 
<<	If understood it correctly, no fantasy hero setting not set in that 
 
world would be considered publishable. This knocks out huge chunks of 
 
the fantasy genre.>> 
 
No, you did not understand it correctly at all; I'm sorry that was not made 
clear. In fact, we're publishing Broken Kingdoms as our very next product, and 
it has nothing to do with the Hero Universe. And we are eagerly looking for 
other campaign settings. 
 
The point of the Hero Universe is that we can have *a* unified setting, which 
makes time travel easier to handle, and gives some added impetus to historical 
genres that might otherwise have a very limited audience. 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 11:47:56 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Reply = Reply To All ? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Brian Wong wrote: 
 
> > >What's happened here?  In the last couple of days I've noticed that hitting 
> > >Reply, which used to create an off-list response, now sends my response 
> > >back to the list.  From what I've seen in the list traffic, I think I may 
> > >not be the only one this is happening to. 
> >  
> > Someone (John, presumably, since he's the list admin) set Reply-To: to the 
> > list.  Looks like it's time to pull out the Reply-To: procmail filter again. 
> >  
> 	Personally I think it' great. Having to manually type in the list's 
> name on every message was a major pain. The amount of stuff I send to people 
> privately from this list is trivial, and it was a waste the other way. 
 
I agree with Rook. This message, for once, doesn't have me having to 
annoyingly reset headers to send to the list. 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 10:08:48 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Transformation Attacks (5ED)? 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Bob Greenwade writes: 
 
>    I took a while to peruse this, and I think it look quite interesting. 
> Certainly there's a lot of thought given to quantifying how Transform 
> works.    Other than organizing the bonuses a little more neatly, the only 
> thing I'd recommend is having the effects go against BODY rather than CON. 
> There's a strong history for using BODY for Transforms, and it makes it 
> easier to apply logically to machines and inanimate objects, which have 
> BODY but not CON. 
 
Unfortunately (though arguably this is the fault of character designers) a lot 
of characters have quite low body -- effects like transform _should_ be more 
effective against minor characters than against important characters, and 
directing the power against CON has that effect, since most major characters 
are built on 18+ CON.  Then again, I don't much like characters with 10 EGO 
either.  I suppose I could do transform with 'breakout' rolls based on CON 
instead. 
Incidentally, what should the 'natural' duration of a transform be? 
 
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Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 10:10:32 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Reply = Reply To All ? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 08:29 AM 4/8/1998 -0700, Brian Wong wrote: 
>>>> Someone (John, presumably, since he's the list admin) set Reply-To: to 
the 
>>>> list.  Looks like it's time to pull out the Reply-To: procmail filter 
again. 
>>>  Personally I think it' great. Having to manually type in the list's 
>>> name on every message was a major pain. The amount of stuff I send to 
people 
>>> privately from this list is trivial, and it was a waste the other way. 
>>  
>>  As it, it isn't a problem to reply-to-all and delete the 
>> non-wanted address(es).  Heck, with pine, it's only a simple ^K command. 
>> 
> No such function here. I have to write it in manually from memory 
>every time on the old method. Version of elm we've got here has no reply 
to all 
>that I've as yet found. 
 
   Does your system have a POP server?  If so, and if you're using Windows 
or Mac, you could probably try using Eudora Lite.... 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
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Date: 08 Apr 1998 13:55:31 -0400 
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
>> I have been suprised at how frequently that 1:216 comes up. 
 
TRG> 	Yeah.  A little less than .5% of the time, for me. 
 
Tell that to the corpse. 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:20:52 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
	Er, you misunderstood. 
 
> > 	Well, some things can work together, and work together well. 
> > There's no reason a Mythic Greece (Xena), Humphry Bogart (Justice, Inc), 
> > James Bond (Espionage?) and an Egyptian campaign (new suppliment) can't 
> > work together.  Mixing in the various other wars and historical settings 
> > along with a low-key fantasy setting even works rather well. 
> 
> 	Actually, I think it would end up coming out like Xena. 
> Episode 1, PC' meet Hercules 
> 2: they meet Ceasar 
> 3: they witness Jesus' birth 
> 4: they bump in Columbus 
> 5: they battel Nazi's 
> 6: They battle Aries 
> 7: they try to kill a Chinese Emperor 
> 
> 	All mixed up, no clue about what genre they should be in. 
> Work's on a fantasy version of Babe Watch on the tele, but I stopped 
> being able to play or GM in this setting after middle school. Around the 
> same time the minimum acceptable stat for a PC went below 18 in my group. :) 
> 	(And, yes, saying minimum was not a typo) 
> 
> 	Multigenre on drugs. :) 
 
	I mean that the above that I listed could easily take part in the 
same campaign world merely separated by time.  Mixing in the far past and 
far future stuff like the New Millenium Universe does is a bit 
schitzophrenic. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Hero Universe 
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:22:47 -0500  
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
How about Joan of Arc's era (100 years war). 
How much would "Contact: God" cost? ^_^ 
Actually, she talked to saints. 
This would need mass combat rules, 
divine intervention rules (the GM :), etc. 
I've always wanted to run her as a PC or NPC. 
Rewrite history, have her live, become Empress 
of France (by God's command, she wouldn't want to), etc.  
Interesting possibilities! 
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
	"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"  
					- Joan of Arc's .sig 
     Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:24:18 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Reply = Reply To All ? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> 	No such function here. I have to write it in manually from memory 
> every time on the old method. Version of elm we've got here has no reply to all 
> that I've as yet found. 
 
	Well, that's probably why we have pine here.  (PINE=Pine Is Not 
Elm, btw).  I'm given the option as soon as I hit the reply command.  Do 
you at least have aliases? 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 08 Apr 1998 14:29:35 -0400 
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Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
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>>>>> "S" == Sakura <jeffj@io.com> writes: 
 
S> Here's where I disagree.  I would argue that a person with higher skill 
S> would be more likely to get the 'head splattered like an overripe melon' 
S> result than someone who had just picked up the gun for the first time. 
S> He's going to know how to aim, how to compensate for the 'kick' of the 
S> gun, etc, and thus is more likely to score a dead-on hit than the novice. 
 
The practiced shooter will have appropriate weapon familiarities, the 
novice will not and will suffer significant OCV penalties.  The practiced 
shooter will be able to hit what he is aiming at more frequently than the 
novice: combat skill levels to increase OCV, offsetting OCV penalties for 
called shots.  If you want a particularly lethal game, OCV skill levels may 
be exchanged for increasing the damage done by the attack -- again, the 
practiced shooter will be able to afford to do it. 
 
Hero is already a disturbingly accurate model of reality; there is no need 
to make it any more "realistic", especially if it adds more dice rolling 
and slows things down. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
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Date: 08 Apr 1998 14:32:21 -0400 
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>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
>> If they are not important, why do they have a point cost? 
 
TRG> 	For purposes of completeness.  These are unimportant mental data 
TRG> packets, but they exist and can be affected like any other. 
 
Things with point costs can be bought with character points and sold for 
character points.  Except for these unimportant memories which have a point 
cost but cannot be bought with or sold for character points. 
 
Excuse me if I cannot see anything complete or consistant about the idea. 
 
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Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 11:33:42 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Reply = Reply To All ? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:47 AM 4/8/1998 -0500, Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote: 
>On Wed, 8 Apr 1998, Brian Wong wrote: 
> 
>> > >What's happened here?  In the last couple of days I've noticed that 
hitting 
>> > >Reply, which used to create an off-list response, now sends my response 
>> > >back to the list.  From what I've seen in the list traffic, I think I 
may 
>> > >not be the only one this is happening to. 
>> >  
>> > Someone (John, presumably, since he's the list admin) set Reply-To: to 
the 
>> > list.  Looks like it's time to pull out the Reply-To: procmail filter 
again. 
>> >  
>>  Personally I think it' great. Having to manually type in the list's 
>> name on every message was a major pain. The amount of stuff I send to 
people 
>> privately from this list is trivial, and it was a waste the other way. 
> 
>I agree with Rook. This message, for once, doesn't have me having to 
>annoyingly reset headers to send to the list. 
 
   I say we leave it as is (now that we all know it's there -- most of the 
confusion happened because it was just done without announcement, and 
nobody really payed attention to the "Reply-To" Header), and only change it 
back when an actual problem surfaces. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:38:16 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> >> I have been suprised at how frequently that 1:216 comes up. 
> 
> TRG> 	Yeah.  A little less than .5% of the time, for me. 
> 
> Tell that to the corpse. 
 
	Well, I don't think he'll hear me, but . . . 
 
	"Mr. Corpse?  A critical hit is rolled a little less than .5% of 
the time." 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 11:41:55 -0700 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Here's something I pondered a while back at 
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/1905/haym15l.html. 
 
Mind Stealing 
In The Ultimate Mentalist, a method is presented for switching minds 
(the same method that I presented back in Haymaker #5!). But how can 
minds be stolen?  
Example: Mind Thief steals Defender's mind. Now Defender doesn't know 
who he is, or why he's in a power suit. Mind Thief now knows everything 
that Defender did, including how to operate the suit, his secret ID, his 
engineering skills, his first girlfriend, everything.  
Here's my attempt:  
 - Mind Control or Mental Illusions (single command -- "You know 
nothing."), or Transform into an Amnesiac 
 - Transfer versus INT, EGO, and all skills 
 - Mind Link versus single target 
 - Read-only Telepathy, perhaps Autofire 
Is it legal to transfer skills that the transferring character does not 
possess himself?  
The Autofire on Telepathy would allow up to five facts to be read per 
phase, not just one. Does this sound reasonable?  
Can Area Effect Mind Control or Autofire Mind Control be used to send 
different commands to each of its targets? What if it had the Variable 
Special Effects advantage, with the varying effects being varying 
commands?  
Which is more appropriate to wipe a target's mind -- mind control or 
mental illusions?  
 
 
Dave Mattingly 
mattingly@bigfoot.com 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Joe Mucchiello" <why@superlink.net> 
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 98 18:43:10  
Subject: Re: One Use Luck 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:42:04 -0400 (EDT), Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
 
>>  
>> On Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:47:59 -0700 (PDT), Brian Wong wrote:  
>>   
>> >Hello;  
>> >  
>> >	I'm considering a construct in Fantasy Hero for luck deemed  
>> >as Karma. This would be a dice of luck which is usable only once.  
>> >  
>> >	Gained either through actions or prayer.  
>> >In the prayer method it would basically be a sacrifice or EP's for the luck.  
>> >  
>> >	What I;m working on now is a cost for this.  
>> >  
>> >How much seems fair for a one use dice of luck?  
>>   
>> 1d6 Luck (5 AP): One Charge (-2), Charge Does Not Recover (-2)  
>>   
>> 1 CP  
> 
>But that doesn't mean you'll get a 6 on the die roll.  :-) 
 
Agreed, but then that wasn't answering that part of the original post 
 
 
>Try, Favor, GM, 14-.  (Like 10 points considering the power level of a 
>GM? :-) 
 
:} 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:53:44 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
To: "INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Message text written by INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org 
>I never heard anything about Battletech being related (never read much 
of the game), but I do remember something about Earthdawn and 
Shadowrun being related somehow (heck, just look at the critters in 
each, lots of duplicates).< 
 
I just came off of a long Earthdawn campaign to start Champions again, so I 
guess I have a little bit of authority on the subject.  Yes, Earthdawn and 
Shadowrun are based in the same world...Earthdawn is a long, long time ago 
(I forget the dates), and Shadowrun is in the near future.  Here's how it 
works:  Magic ebbs and flows in the world, from a maximum where magic is 
everyday, to a minimum where it doesn't exist at all.  Earthdawn takes 
place just as the magic cycle is starting to come down from a high.  
Shadowrun takes place just as the magic cycle is coming up from a low.  
Battletech is not in this same universe, as far as I know. 
 
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Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 11:54:13 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 01:38 PM 4/8/1998 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
>> >> I have been suprised at how frequently that 1:216 comes up. 
>> 
>> TRG>  Yeah.  A little less than .5% of the time, for me. 
>> 
>> Tell that to the corpse. 
> 
> Well, I don't think he'll hear me, but . . . 
> 
> "Mr. Corpse?  A critical hit is rolled a little less than .5% of 
>the time." 
 
   "Just think of it, sir!  Your death saved 215 lives!" 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:16:38 -0400 
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us> 
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
From:	SMTP%"champ-l@sysabend.org"  8-APR-1998 14:50:33.97 
To:	BSVITAVSKY 
CC:	 
Subj:	Re: Critical Hits 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
References: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980408092206.21578A-100000@dillinger.io.com> 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 08 Apr 1998 14:29:35 -0400 
In-Reply-To: Sakura's message of "Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:36:59 -0500 (CDT)" 
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Lines: 36 
X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.4/Emacs 19.34 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Precedence: bulk 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
>>>>> "S" == Sakura <jeffj@io.com> writes: 
 
S> Here's where I disagree.  I would argue that a person with higher skill 
S> would be more likely to get the 'head splattered like an overripe melon' 
S> result than someone who had just picked up the gun for the first time. 
S> He's going to know how to aim, how to compensate for the 'kick' of the 
S> gun, etc, and thus is more likely to score a dead-on hit than the novice. 
 
 
It seems to me that in this discussion so far everyone has been  
assuming the optimum shot does more damage. Very often in superhero  
games this is not the case, and the way I handle critical hits with  
this in mind.  
 
I generally interpret a roll of 3 as an attack that has gone  
perfectly, doing the best that the attacker could realistically  
hope it might do. If a brick hits a relatively normal person,  
doing maximum damage might be disastrous - chances are the brick  
was more interested in moderating his strength than in inflicting  
the most harm. 
 
Rather than trying to create a system to account for all the  
possible hopes an attacker might have for an attack, I handle  
things on a per case, GM's call basis. This might mean doing  
maximum damage, but it might also mean angling the knockback  
just perfectly, executing the attack with flash and style  
(thus getting a PRE attack bonus), knocking out the thief  
without damaging the Ming vase in his hands, etc. 
 
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From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Wings of the Valkries 
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:23:55 -0500  
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
OK, Puma give, just WHAT this supplement about? 
Never heard of/saw it! Do like Valkries though! ^_^ 
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
	"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"  
					- Joan of Arc's .sig 
     Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:41:48 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On 8 Apr 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
Rat, did you even read my message? I dealt with all of these points, 
because I knew they were the ones you were going to bring up. 
 
> The practiced shooter will have appropriate weapon familiarities, the 
> novice will not and will suffer significant OCV penalties.  The practiced 
> shooter will be able to hit what he is aiming at more frequently than the 
> novice: combat skill levels to increase OCV, offsetting OCV penalties for 
> called shots.   
 
>From my previous message (emphasis added): 
 
S> Since HERO's 'to-hit' roll means 'did I hit at all', assuming both 
                                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
S> people hit, they have equal chance of doing lousy damage or great 
   ^^^^^^^^^^ 
S> damage. 
 
Now, the shooter with more CSLs will be able to do more damage at the same 
level of accuracy, yes, which is I think what you are trying to say. 
 
Let's take two guys - one relative novice (WF: Rifle) and one experienced 
sharpshooter (some CSLs - however many it'd take to hit the vitals at no  
penalty). 
 
If they both just 'fire at some guy' and they both hit, they both do the 
same amount of damage.  The experienced shooter is more likely to hit, 
though. 
 
If the novice just 'fires at the guy' and the experienced shooter aims for 
the vitals, the experienced sharpshooter has the same chance to hit as the 
novice, but will do more damage if he does.  This is the thing that seems 
wrong to me.  The sharpshooter is aiming dead center at his heart, but if 
he misses his roll, he misses the guy entirely?  In a more realistic 
situation, it wouldn't be all-or-nothing - either he'd hit the vitals, or 
he'd hit the guy in the chest, or he'd miss. 
 
The same applies for putting CSLs into damage. 
 
> If you want a particularly lethal game, OCV skill levels may 
> be exchanged for increasing the damage done by the attack -- again, the 
> practiced shooter will be able to afford to do it. 
 
>From my previous message: 
 
S> The only thing that comes anywhere close to modeling this in HERO is 
S> the ability to trade combat levels for damage (assuming your GM even 
S> lets you do that for ranged combat) - but that has the problem of 
S> decreasing your overall accuracy, since you have to assign them before 
S> you make the attack.  
 
Translation: If you're aiming for a point that's going to let you do more 
damage, you're more likely to miss overall.  See above. 
 
> Hero is already a disturbingly accurate model of reality; 
 
I have nothing to say to this. You must live in a very interesting world. 
 
J 
 
"One equal temper of heroic hearts,              http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will              jeffj@io.com 
 To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."    - Tennyson, "Ulysses" 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:41:54 -0500 
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>>> >> I have been suprised at how frequently that 1:216 comes up. 
>>> 
>>> TRG>  Yeah.  A little less than .5% of the time, for me. 
>>> 
>>> Tell that to the corpse. 
>> 
>> Well, I don't think he'll hear me, but . . . 
>> 
>> "Mr. Corpse?  A critical hit is rolled a little less than .5% of 
>>the time." 
> 
>   "Just think of it, sir!  Your death saved 215 lives!" 
 
Don't forget, it's also a 1:216 that a 3d6+1K comes up at max BODY, 
so *that* situation only comes up less than 0.0025% of the time... 
"Mr. Corpse?  You're really unlucky..." 
 
(max damage on 4d6K comes up more often... hello, 120 STUN!) 
 
  Donald 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:45:35 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Reply = Reply To All ? 
To: "INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
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Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Message text written by INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org 
>   I say we leave it as is (now that we all know it's there -- most of the 
confusion happened because it was just done without announcement, and 
nobody really payed attention to the "Reply-To" Header), and only change it 
back when an actual problem surfaces.< 
 
I prefered it the old way, myself.  When looking at a list of my messages, 
I could see who sent each message.  Now, every message comes from "champ-l" 
and I have to sift through that archaic internet header stuff to figure out 
who sent a particular message. Plus, my auto-quoting thing (see above) no 
longer knows which user it is quoting.  Anyway, it seems like most people 
like the new way, so I'll adapt. 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:25:30 -0700 (PDT) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Re: Wings of the Valkries 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
---"Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA"  wrote: 
> 
> OK, Puma give, just WHAT this supplement about? 
> Never heard of/saw it! Do like Valkries though! ^_^ 
>  
 
Sorry, nothing to do with Valkries. 
 
It was an adventure who's underlying premise was that of someone going 
back in time to assassinate Hitler before he came to full power in 
Germany.  The heroes then had ot go back in time to save Hitler (it 
the type of moral dilema that Rob Bell seemed to enjoy). 
 
It was a well done adventure, but it generated some bad press for 
Hero/ICE, so they elected to pull the product rather than risk further 
negative press by fighting the issue.  I sound, if (from the 
perspective of someone who didn't get a copy) annoying business 
decision. 
 
 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 13:28:35 -0700 (PDT) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Re: Reply = Reply To All ? 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
---David B Stallard  wrote: 
> 
> Message text written by INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org 
> >   I say we leave it as is (now that we all know it's there -- most 
of the 
> confusion happened because it was just done without announcement, and 
> nobody really payed attention to the "Reply-To" Header), and only 
change it 
> back when an actual problem surfaces.< 
>  
> I prefered it the old way, myself.  When looking at a list of my 
messages, 
> I could see who sent each message.  Now, every message comes from 
"champ-l" 
> and I have to sift through that archaic internet header stuff to 
figure out 
> who sent a particular message. Plus, my auto-quoting thing (see 
above) no 
> longer knows which user it is quoting.  Anyway, it seems like most 
people 
> like the new way, so I'll adapt. 
 
Now that's weird.  All of the mail programs I use show the FROM field 
in the list of messages and hide the REPLY-TO field unless you read 
the header or reply to the message. What mail program are you using? 
 
 
== 
 
     John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
============================================ 
Got a question about the list?  Just ask.  Or, you can go 
look over at www.sysabend.org/champions.  I've been 
slowly posting information about the list there. 
 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 13:29:17 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org, "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: Wings of the Valkries 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 02:23 PM 4/8/98 -0500, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA wrote: 
>OK, Puma give, just WHAT this supplement about? 
>Never heard of/saw it! Do like Valkries though! ^_^ 
> 
In (very) short, the PC's have to time travel to save Hitler. You can see 
why they got in trouble... 
 
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Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 13:29:17 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org, "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: Wings of the Valkries 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 02:23 PM 4/8/98 -0500, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA wrote: 
>OK, Puma give, just WHAT this supplement about? 
>Never heard of/saw it! Do like Valkries though! ^_^ 
> 
In (very) short, the PC's have to time travel to save Hitler. You can see 
why they got in trouble... 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:44:46 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Supplement request 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>   In days past, my group's just had a large sheet of 25mm hex paper under 
a sheet of transparent dry-erase plastic.  The GM would then draw the map 
on the plastic, and we'd put our characters' initials at whatever location 
we were at.  It may seem cheesy to some today, but it was a winner for the 
6 years (or thereabouts) that I was with that crew.< 
 
We have a transparent hex-map that we draw on, but we use dice or the 4E 
cardboard miniatures to represent people.  I bought the transparent version 
of the hexmap so that I could draw out maps on paper ahead of time, and 
just slide them underneath for an instant map.  The funny thing is, I've 
never done this.  I always just sketch out a map on the hexmap itself.  I 
should start doing them on paper first, for two reasons:  to have a 
permanent copy of a map in case I want to use it again, and because I can 
get more detailed since I won't be holding up the game while I draw.  On my 
sketches, I usually don't put enough in the way of cars, trees, and other 
things that could affect the battle (brick ammunition). 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:59:31 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> TRG> 	For purposes of completeness.  These are unimportant mental data 
> TRG> packets, but they exist and can be affected like any other. 
> 
> Things with point costs can be bought with character points and sold for 
> character points.  Except for these unimportant memories which have a point 
> cost but cannot be bought with or sold for character points. 
 
	Sure they can.  KS: Relatives' Birthdays, 14-, 5 pts 
			KS: My High School Years, 12-, 3 pts 
			KS: Problems with my car, 13-, 4pts 
 
	We could go on.  Most GMs won't charge for these things.  I'd also 
say that something like Dispel would work for temporary loss of these 
memories, and turning them back on would be just a matter of thinking 
about it. 
 
> Excuse me if I cannot see anything complete or consistant about the idea. 
 
	You say you can buy anything, and I pointed out memories are the 
same way.  However, I've got some things that may be a little messy to 
buy:  A stool, a dead floppy disk, a pencil, a postage stamp, the ability 
to make farting noises with my hands,the ability to tie a cherry stem with 
my tongue, the ability to belch "Happy Birthday to You", the ability to 
annoy my girlfriend with my finger tapping. 
 
	How would I buy these? 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:04:33 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> > Well, I don't think he'll hear me, but . . . 
> > 
> > "Mr. Corpse?  A critical hit is rolled a little less than .5% of 
> >the time." 
> 
>    "Just think of it, sir!  Your death saved 215 lives!" 
 
	Well, more than that.  Because some attacks were still too small 
to kill, and others rolled little enough damage to not kill.  Heck, as 
your system requires a roll for the Crit to occur _after_ the 1 in 216 
chance, we're looking at more like, to be liberal, 1 in 500. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:06:00 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: "INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Reply = Reply To All ? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> I prefered it the old way, myself.  When looking at a list of my messages, 
> I could see who sent each message.  Now, every message comes from "champ-l" 
> and I have to sift through that archaic internet header stuff to figure out 
> who sent a particular message. Plus, my auto-quoting thing (see above) no 
> longer knows which user it is quoting.  Anyway, it seems like most people 
> like the new way, so I'll adapt. 
 
	Actually, those are other good points.  It is more difficult to 
follow who sent what in what thread. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 08 Apr 1998 17:29:26 -0400 
Lines: 59 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "S" == Sakura <jeffj@io.com> writes: 
 
S> Now, the shooter with more CSLs will be able to do more damage at the 
S> same level of accuracy, yes, which is I think what you are trying to 
S> say. 
 
Which the system already handles, if you use the option to add CSLs to DCs: 
the attacker has a tougher shot at a location that will hurt worse. 
 
[...] 
 
S> If they both just 'fire at some guy' and they both hit, they both do the 
S> same amount of damage.  The experienced shooter is more likely to hit, 
S> though. 
 
The experienced shooter will consider the target and decide what part of 
the target he can hit.  If he decides he cannot hit the head, then he will 
concentrate on the torso. 
 
The final result is the same, however. 
 
[...] 
 
S> The sharpshooter is aiming dead center at his heart, but if he misses 
S> his roll, he misses the guy entirely?  In a more realistic situation, it 
S> wouldn't be all-or-nothing - either he'd hit the vitals, or he'd hit the 
S> guy in the chest, or he'd miss. 
 
What you are describing is not a critical hit system.  What you are asking 
for is a minor change to hit/miss determination.  Something like, If you 
miss just due to hit location penalties (that is, if the roll were 
unmodified by a hit location penalty you would have hit), then you hit an 
adjacent location on the chart.  That can be pretty messy when attempting a 
wounding shot and accidentally hitting something more vital. 
 
[...] 
 
>> Hero is already a disturbingly accurate model of reality; 
S> I have nothing to say to this. You must live in a very interesting world. 
 
I live in the real one, where people frequently die from gunshot wounds. 
The Hero system as it currently stands is disturbingly accurate. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 08 Apr 1998 17:35:39 -0400 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "TRG" == Tim R Gilberg <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> writes: 
 
>> Excuse me if I cannot see anything complete or consistant about the idea. 
 
TRG> 	You say you can buy anything, and I pointed out memories are the 
TRG> same way. 
 
No, you imply that one can buy anything.  My point is that things that the 
things that cost points are things that are important to the game (rather, 
the game mechanics).  If random memories are not "important" then they 
have no real point cost.  If they are important, and they do cost points, 
why is it that they cannot be bought and sold like everything else in the 
game that cost points? 
 
This is not complete or consistant, Tim.  It is a exception made for 
munchkinism's sake. 
 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 14:38:06 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Critical Hits 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:04 PM 4/8/1998 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
>> > Well, I don't think he'll hear me, but . . . 
>> > 
>> > "Mr. Corpse?  A critical hit is rolled a little less than .5% of 
>> >the time." 
>> 
>>    "Just think of it, sir!  Your death saved 215 lives!" 
> 
> Well, more than that.  Because some attacks were still too small 
>to kill, and others rolled little enough damage to not kill.  Heck, as 
>your system requires a roll for the Crit to occur _after_ the 1 in 216 
>chance, we're looking at more like, to be liberal, 1 in 500. 
 
   Just as a guess, probably something like 1:300 or so just for the Crit 
to occur in the first place (including the 1:216 for the natural 3 that 
started it). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Reply-To headers (was Re: Reply = Reply To All ?) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 08 Apr 1998 17:38:34 -0400 
Lines: 30 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "BW" == Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> writes: 
 
>> Someone (John, presumably, since he's the list admin) set Reply-To: to 
>> the list. [...] 
 
BW> 	Personally I think it' great. 
 
Personally, this is the one thing that will make me leave the list. 
 
I'll be nice and give it a grace period to go away.  Come next Mondy, if it 
is still there, I am gone. 
 
(Yes, I loathe lists that set Reply-To headers back to themselves.) 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNSvuPZ6VRH7BJMxHAQELPgQAxvf904e4/kVRYe+2NqxJEhO4aOoa9OW5 
X+vgaxsADn0+XLIsDx+U3DMZiPQlG1y1Y+2yXaeMZrVRrLlpswA28+NCckfEIhOx 
7w66YpIyVGVIzG5MtVeUtydyxWbsblPoErvs6aVtsoLg3BaWyPtPUWu7/9uzuDaC 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
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X-SMTP: helo pm04sm.pmm.mci.net from jstefanski@internetmci.com server @pm04sm.pmm.mci.net ip 208.159.126.153 
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 16:51:26 -0500 
From: John Stefanski <jstefanski@internetmci.com> 
Subject: RE: Supplement request (Cardboard Miniatures) 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Eric I would be very interested in the cardboard miniature .TIF files. 
 
Thanks, 
 
JS 
 
======================== 
JS Stefanski - jstefanski@iname.com 
 
"aut vincere aut mori" - Conquer or Die	 
======================== 
 
On April 08, 1998 2:47 AM, Eric Chauvin [SMTP:calicajun@prtcl.com] wrote: 
> David Stallar wrote: 
>  
> >Some people might think this is goofy, but I'd really like to see more of 
> >those cardboard character "miniatures" that came with the 4E GM's screen.  
> >Not only are there not enough of them, but they look pretty dated (no more 
> >bellbottom pants, please!).  I don't know if there's any need for a 5E GM's 
> >screen that could include these, but my group finds them very useful seeing 
> >that "real" superhero miniatures are virtually impossible to find (I know 
> >Hero made some a long time ago, but they're all gone as far as I know). 
>  
> I've been making/using cardboard character miniatures for years. I would be 
> happy to post & create some for those interested. Eventually I intend on 
> having a web site where if requested people will regularly find a update of 
> these "cardboard miniatures"  I am unaware as to weather or not I can send 
> files to the Hero E-mail list. 
> If you are interested You can E-mail me or post a response on the list. If 
> I receive enough responses I will make this a pet project of mine. 
> ____________________________ 
> GET-EM!!! THAT'S THE PLAN?!? 
> --------------------------------------------- 
> Eric Chauvin 
> calicajun@prtcl.com 
 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 15:04:56 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:41 AM 4/8/1998 -0700, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
>Here's something I pondered a while back at 
>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/1905/haym15l.html. 
> 
>Mind Stealing 
>In The Ultimate Mentalist, a method is presented for switching minds 
>(the same method that I presented back in Haymaker #5!). But how can 
>minds be stolen?  
>Example: Mind Thief steals Defender's mind. Now Defender doesn't know 
>who he is, or why he's in a power suit. Mind Thief now knows everything 
>that Defender did, including how to operate the suit, his secret ID, his 
>engineering skills, his first girlfriend, everything.  
>Here's my attempt:  
> - Mind Control or Mental Illusions (single command -- "You know 
>nothing."), or Transform into an Amnesiac 
> - Transfer versus INT, EGO, and all skills 
> - Mind Link versus single target 
> - Read-only Telepathy, perhaps Autofire 
>Is it legal to transfer skills that the transferring character does not 
>possess himself?  
 
   If it's legal to Transfer Skills at all (and I don't see why it 
shouldn't be, if the Transfer is BOECV) then it shouldn't matter whether 
the Transferring character has them or not. 
 
>The Autofire on Telepathy would allow up to five facts to be read per 
>phase, not just one. Does this sound reasonable?  
 
   Works for me (subject to the usual restrictions on Autofire). 
 
>Can Area Effect Mind Control or Autofire Mind Control be used to send 
>different commands to each of its targets? What if it had the Variable 
>Special Effects advantage, with the varying effects being varying 
>commands?  
 
   I don't think I'd allow different commands to different targets for Mind 
Control any more than I'd allow different Powers for different targets for 
a regular attack (the Swiss Army Machine Gun notwithstanding).  With a 
variation on the Variable Special Effects Advantage (one I call Variable 
Result), I might allow it, though. 
 
>Which is more appropriate to wipe a target's mind -- mind control or 
>mental illusions?  
 
   It depends on the dynamic involved.  If the mentalist is giving the 
command, "Forget Everything," then the target will still be able to 
struggle to remember it; that's Mind Control.  If the mentalist is casting 
a cloud over the target's mind to make it more difficult to recall things, 
that would be Mental Illusions (though I'd call it a rather tenuous use of 
that Power).  The same result could also be done with Telepathy, Transform, 
Dispel, or Mental Paralysis, depending on how you envision the target being 
able to recover the memories (if at all). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 15:08:52 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Transformation Attacks (5ED)? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:08 AM 4/8/1998 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade writes: 
>>    I took a while to peruse this, and I think it look quite interesting. 
>> Certainly there's a lot of thought given to quantifying how Transform 
>> works.    Other than organizing the bonuses a little more neatly, the only 
>> thing I'd recommend is having the effects go against BODY rather than CON. 
>> There's a strong history for using BODY for Transforms, and it makes it 
>> easier to apply logically to machines and inanimate objects, which have 
>> BODY but not CON. 
> 
>Unfortunately (though arguably this is the fault of character designers) a 
lot 
>of characters have quite low body -- effects like transform _should_ be more 
>effective against minor characters than against important characters, and 
>directing the power against CON has that effect, since most major characters 
>are built on 18+ CON.  Then again, I don't much like characters with 10 EGO 
>either.  I suppose I could do transform with 'breakout' rolls based on CON 
>instead. 
 
   That could work -- basing the effect on BODY, but using CON for 
"breakouts." 
 
>Incidentally, what should the 'natural' duration of a transform be? 
 
   I have no idea.  I think I'd just let the target heal it like BODY 
damage, with an option for an all-or-nothing cure, like it is now.  When 
the character has been in the Transformed state for as long as it would 
take him to heal the BODY from the Transform (as though it had been an AVLD 
Energy Blast doing BODY), he gets his first Breakout Roll. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:43:54 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> No, you imply that one can buy anything.  My point is that things that the 
> things that cost points are things that are important to the game (rather, 
> the game mechanics).  If random memories are not "important" then they 
> have no real point cost.  If they are important, and they do cost points, 
> why is it that they cannot be bought and sold like everything else in the 
> game that cost points? 
 
	Eh?  Like I said, they can be bought just fine.  Like all Everyman 
Skills, however, they cannot be sold.  One can get a Physical Lim from not 
having them, but they can't be sold. 
 
	Compare to Normal Sight -- everyone has it, and it can't be bought 
off.  However, a physical lim can get rid of it and, I'd argue, a dispel 
vs. eye-sfx would cause a momentary inability to see. 
 
	Look at the ability to breathe in an oxygen-based environment. 
Everyone gets it free and you can't buy it off.  Howver, you can take a 
physical lim to represent not having this ability. 
 
	So where is the inconsistency.  Memories would be no more than 
KSs, plain and simple.  As such, they can be affected by Adjustment 
Powers. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:00:45 -0700 
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: 14 years ago tomorrow 
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
She's my Fiancee. No date set yet. 
 
			-Sam 
 
 
 
-> From redbf@ldd.net Wed Apr  8 06:48:44 1998 
-> X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
-> X-SMTP: helo hermes.ldd.net from redbf@ldd.net server @hermes.ldd.net ip 209.16.220.10 
-> MIME-Version: 1.0 
-> To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
-> Subject: Re: 14 years ago tomorrow 
-> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 
->  
-> Lizard wrote: 
-> >  
-> > At 01:40 PM 4/7/98 -0700, Miq Millman wrote: 
-> > >Just an early birthday greeting, here. 
-> > >How's things?  Have you and Zoe set a date yet? 
-> > >Chromatic Dragon sends his best as well on this joint anniversay occaision. 
->  
->  
-> > Misdirected mail. Gotta love it. 
->  
->  
-> Actually, I am wondering who Zoe is and if they set a date or not. 
->  
 
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Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 16:01:33 -0700 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Reply-To headers (was Re: Reply = Reply To All ?) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> >> Someone (John, presumably, since he's the list admin) set Reply-To: to 
> >> the list. [...] 
>  
> BW>     Personally I think it' great. 
>  
> Personally, this is the one thing that will make me leave the list. 
>  
> I'll be nice and give it a grace period to go away.  Come next Mondy, if it 
> is still there, I am gone. 
>  
> (Yes, I loathe lists that set Reply-To headers back to themselves.) 
 
	Really, when it wasn't there I once considered leaving over that. But 
then I just decided I could deal with the extra work. I can't stand 
having to 
type in the list's name in every message I reply to. :) 
 
--  
Rook			    
 __ 
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html  Super Hero Links Page 
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/              Super Hero Role 
Playing 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:08:39 -0700 
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: 14 years ago tomorrow 
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
Hey dude. 
 
No date yet. We're still planning on buying a new house first. 
 
						-Sam 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Reply-To headers (was Re: Reply = Reply To All ?) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 08 Apr 1998 20:12:38 -0400 
Lines: 32 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> "R" == Rook <rook@infinex.com> writes: 
 
R> 	Really, when it wasn't there I once considered leaving over 
R> that. But then I just decided I could deal with the extra work. I can't 
R> stand having to type in the list's name in every message I reply to. :) 
 
You see, a good mail client will automatically Do The Right Thing, 
depending on which reply command you use.  Reply-To headers pointing back 
at a mailing list make it impossible for good mail clients to Do The Right 
Thing because it will honor the Reply-To header first and foremost, which 
is what RFC 822 says it should do. 
 
A perfect example is this list, which overrode the Reply-To header that I 
set specifically to prevent discussion on the mailing list.  I cannot abide 
broken mailing lists when I use a good mail client. 
 
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Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
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vjBbXvYJPwZVDMD6D5ElkIEzuivAJ/lO9ycbZCP/kZEarMreWwsbrT6gZAf9drAm 
LdsUFXoC7oQ= 
=qZyr 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core, 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should 
                                    \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at. 
 
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X-SMTP: helo send1d.yahoomail.com from dangerthorn@yahoo.com server @send1d.yahoomail.com ip 205.180.60.48 
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 18:11:07 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Sharky Dangerthorn <dangerthorn@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Re: Reply-To headers (was Re: Reply = Reply To All ?) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 1 
 
 
Here! Here!  I agree!  I would think that the "best interest of the 
list" would include keeping unnecessary, or off-topic, discussion 
OFF-LIST.  I guess if the reply-to header is going to be used, I will 
just have to send smaller comments (that I normally would just send to 
the author) to the list instead... 
 
 
 
---Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> wrote: 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> >>>>> "R" == Rook <rook@infinex.com> writes: 
>  
> R> 	Really, when it wasn't there I once considered leaving over 
> R> that. But then I just decided I could deal with the extra work. I 
can't 
> R> stand having to type in the list's name in every message I reply 
to. :) 
>  
> You see, a good mail client will automatically Do The Right Thing, 
> depending on which reply command you use.  Reply-To headers pointing 
back 
> at a mailing list make it impossible for good mail clients to Do The 
Right 
> Thing because it will honor the Reply-To header first and foremost, 
which 
> is what RFC 822 says it should do. 
>  
> A perfect example is this list, which overrode the Reply-To header 
that I 
> set specifically to prevent discussion on the mailing list.  I 
cannot abide 
> broken mailing lists when I use a good mail client. 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
> Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
> Charset: noconv 
>  
> iQCVAwUBNSwSdZ6VRH7BJMxHAQGd6wQAvHyRFDYATLBH2YlnEMQBUhEPMlqONDIb 
> WRFH/+w341P+HNYk/GEOy3iaQ7BN1dmwBBJxVDQ31rh9UA2W6bSID565qxgniviN 
> vjBbXvYJPwZVDMD6D5ElkIEzuivAJ/lO9ycbZCP/kZEarMreWwsbrT6gZAf9drAm 
> LdsUFXoC7oQ= 
> =qZyr 
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
> --  
> Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid 
core, 
> PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to 
rupture, should 
>                                     \ not be touched, inhaled, or 
looked at. 
>  
 
== 
Jim Dickinson -=- Portland/Salem, OR, USA 
a.k.a. Sharky Dangerthorn, Midget, Hey You! 
Nicks on DALnet (IRC): Da_Midge Game_Knight 
 
Castle Game Knight: http://www.aircyber.net/~jd/cgk 
Join the Circle of HEROs: http://www.aircyber.net/~jd/coh 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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From: Legionair <Legionair@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:48:16 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: The Watchmen 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 2 
 
I don't remember who was looking for the Watchmen information, but I found a 
pretty in-depth site on the subject... 
 
http://student-www.uchicago.edu/users/jbfliege/watchmen.html 
 
It has a full write up of the additional information that was in the Mayfair 
DC Heroes supplement as well. 
 
Jason 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 23:00:01 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: CHAR: Devil Hunter Yohko 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 3 
 
I hold no enmity against those coerced into evil; 
But to those vile beings who toy with the hearts and souls of men, 
Since the time of the Ancient Gods, we have been your destroyers! 
Now the 108th Devil Hunter, Yohko, is here... Beware! 
 
DEVIL HUNTER YOHKO 
(aka MAMNO HUNTER YOHKO) 
(Yohko Mano) 
 
Designers Notes: 
Yohko Mano is a member of the very old Mano clan.  For over 2,000 years 
this clan has been defending Japan from incursions of 'yoma' (a generic 
term for demons, devils and other supernatural beasts).  Yohko is the 
108th of her line, trained in the arts of devil hunting by her 
grandmother, Madoka Mano. 
 
The Mano's got their start when Haruka Mano, the first devil hunter, 
defeated the demon Tokima and sealed him away.  Since then, Tokima has 
managed to periodically break free, sending incursions of demons and other 
foul creatures to trouble man.  It's the job of the Mano clan to send 
these creatures back to where they came from. 
 
Yohko is not alone in her quest, however, she has her grandmother - a 
once-powerful devil hunter in her own right - to help her, as well as 
Azusa Kanzaki, a junior devil-hunter in training.  Yohko's mother, Sayoko, 
doesn't believe a word of this, and calmly goes about her daily business 
of putting food on the table (and meeting single men) instead of risking 
life and limb defending Japan from the supernatural.  Oh well, to each 
their own... 
 
Description: 
Yohko is a 16 year old school girl, but this being anime that doesn't say 
much.  She looks to be fairly tall, with long legs, a narrow waist and 
hips and a surprisingly large bust.  She has dark eyes and brown hair that 
would come down past her waist if she didn't keep it tied up in two 
ponytails.  As Yohko, she wears typical Western dress; as Devil Hunter 
Yohko, however, she wears in a very tight one piece Chinese styled sheath 
dress that is slit up to the hip on either side.  The dress is red with 
gold trim and has a ying-yang symbol on the chest.  Yohko also wears gold 
bands at the wrist and ankle and black slippers to complete her 
devil-hunting outfit. 
 
Powers Notes: 
Yohko, like many other anime and comic heroes, suffers from a severe case 
of 'one-shot' syndrome, meaning that we see her perform a number of 
attacks once  and once only, regardless of how effective these attacks 
looked at the time.  For completeness sake, I've included these single use 
powers, mainly because they made for a more interesting character. 
 
For starters, Yohko seems to derive most of her powers from her 'Yoma 
Ring'.  The ring is a piece of jewelry that loosely resembles a goat's 
head.  The teeth fit around the middle finger, while the horns wrap across 
the back of the hand.  Yohko wears this ring on her left hand. 
 
When the power of the ring is activated, Yohko undergoes a rather typical 
'magical girl'-styled transformation.  In the style of anime 'magical 
girls' everywhere (ie. Sailor Moon, Pretty Sammy et al), Yohko spins 
around, her clothes disintegrate and her devil hunting uniform forms 
itself around her body.  All accompanied by a dazzling light show and 
theme music.  That done, Yohko can then summon her 'Sword of the Soul' 
which can used to quickly cut most demon into chunks. 
 
Probably the most obvious change in Yohko, once she transforms, is that 
she becomes physically more powerful.  She's a little stronger, a *lot* 
faster, and *much* more tougher than she had been.  The transformation 
also seems to be a big confidence boost, Yohko is much more willing to 
tackle monsters *after* she's transformed than before - hence the PRE 
bonus (and that form-fitting dress certainly does wonders for her 
figure!). 
 
After transforming, Yohko can call upon her 'Sword of the Soul'.  This is 
a two-handed, straight bladed sword about the size of your average katana, 
with a large axe-blade forming part of the crossguard.  It can be used as 
a normal sword, or Yohko can separate the blade and use just the axe (she 
did this once when the blade itself got stuck in a monster).  The sword 
can also be used to generate the traditional 'sword-energy' so common to 
anime.  Yohko winds up, takes a mighty swing, and sends a line of energy 
streaking towards her opponent.  She's done this twice, generating a 
simple cutting attack the first time, and a bolt of fire the second.  The 
sword can also be used to block similar attacks.  Several times a yoma 
will toss a bolt of fire Yohko's way, she'll hold up the sword and the 
bolt either dissipate against the blade, or be harmlessly cut in two. 
Finally, the sword can be recalled to Yohko's if knocked away or left 
behind.  She simply has to hold out her hand and summon it.  Note that 
this takes about a phase, and probably has to be reasonably close by. 
 
In her hair, Yohko wears two ornaments made from some sort of mystical 
crystal.  Supposedly, they allow one to focus their inner power.  I don't 
know about that, but at one point, she used them to generate bands of red 
energy with which to immobilize a foe.   
 
Yohko herself is capable of taking quite a bit of abuse one she's 
transformed.  She gets kicked around by any number of monsters and still 
comes back for more.  She also seems to take a lot less damage from claws 
and blades than one would expect.  This seems to be a common cinematic 
stunt, especially in anime, where a sword fight will result in a lot of 
thin little cuts instead of any major crippling wounds.  A good simulation 
of this is by buying the character some Armor with Invisible Power 
Effects.  This is what I did for Yohko.  Note, the SFX on her Armor is 
that you cut her dress to shreds, not Yohko herself. 
 
Yohko looks to be a reasonably well-trained martial artist.  She fights 
equally well bare-handed or with her sword.  Her martial arts are pretty 
generic, as she obviously doesn't practice and specific style.  It should 
be noted that the Martial Strike, Offensive Strike and Throw are 
restricted to bare handed use, while the Bind and Passing Strike are 
performed only with the sword.  The Sacrifice Strike is either an all-out 
slash, or a Flying Kick.  The Passing Strike itself is often used in 
conjunction with Yohko's Superleap in order to generate enough power. 
Finally, Yohko preferred defensive tactic is her Flying Dodge, which she 
aborts to often. 
 
Yohko is only 16 (or maybe 18, depends on which tape you watch), and 
hasn't really accumulated any skills of note (other than ones used to hunt 
devils).  She is a very good acrobat, however and is *very* good at 
dodging. 
 
Disadvantages Notes: 
Yohko's costume is rather striking, especially since no one else runs 
around in a bright red, skin-tight dress... it is kind of hard to miss 
her. 
 
Chigako Ogawa is Yohko's self-proclaimed business manager, who figures 
that Yohko's devil hunting skills are a sure ticket to easy money.  Azusa 
Kanzaki is a 'junior devil-hunter in training'.  She has a version of the 
Yoma Ring herself, and can summon the 'Spear of Fuma' when she transforms. 
Azusa means well and doesn't do *that* bad in a fight, and will follow her 
teacher (ie. Yohko) to the ends of the Earth (or beyond). 
 
Being 16, Yohko suffers from all the same sorts of emotional problems that 
most 16 year old girls do...  She wants boys to notice her (and drools 
after anyone who is 'cuter than average') and will fall in love in about 5 
seconds if presented with a reasonable handsome male.  Her grandmother 
calls her 'fluff-brain' and 'airhead', mainly because Yohko can be counted 
on oversleeping every morning and then running around in a panic upon 
waking. 
 
Ayako Mano is Yohko's most dangerous foe (sort of).  The granddaughter of 
Chiaki Mano, Madoka Mano's twin sister, Ayako looks *just* like Yohko, 
wears a similar costume (except in black and gold) and carries the 'whip 
of distraction'.  Ayako is very smart, has a follower similar to Azusa 
(and called Azusa #2) and is a very dirty fighter.  She originally wanted 
to destroy Yohko and take her place as the rightful Devil Hunter, now, she 
just wants to defeat Yohko to prover herself. 
 
The Character: 
 
STAT		VAL		COST 
Str		7/10*		2 
Dex		14/24*		36 
Con		10/20*		16 
Body		9*		-2 
Int		13		3 
Ego		12		4 
Pre		10/20*		8 
Com		16/20*		4 
PD		2/10*		7 
ED		2/10*		5 
Spd		2/4*		5 
Rec		3/6*		0 
End		20/40*		0 
Stun		18/30		5 
Char Total			93 
Power Total			176 
Total Cost			269 
 
COST	POWERS & SKILLS 
	*Characteristics gained Only in Hero Form via 'Yoma Ring' (see 
	below) 
 
1	Martial Arts: Generic HTH fighting skills, Use Art with Sword  
4	Bind  +1 OCV  +0 DCV  20 STR Bind 
4	Block  +2  OCV  +2  DCV  Block, Abort 
5	Flying Dodge  +0 OCV  +4 DCV  Dodge vs All, Abort, Full Move 
4	Martial Strike  +0 OCV  +2  DCV  4d6 Strike  (+1DC) 
5	Offensive Strike  -2  OCV  +1 DCV  6d6 Strike (+2DC) 
5	Passing Strike  +1 OCV  +0 DCV  2d6 + v/5; Full Move 
5	Sacrifice Stroke  +1 OCV  -2 DCV  6d6 Strike (+2DC) 
3	Throw  +1 OCV  +0 DCV  2d6 + v/5; Target Falls 
 
4	Instant Change: Costume, IIF: Yoma Ring 
 
33	Multipower: Sword of the Soul, OIF (can be recalled)  
3	u 2d6 HKA, +1 OCV, 0 END - sword blade 
3	u 1d6+1 HKA, AP, 0 END - axe blade 
2	u 10d6 EB, Cannot half move and attack (-1/4), Beam (-1/4) 
2	u 3d6+1 RKA, Cannot half move and attack (-1/4), 2x END (-1/2) 
2	u Missile Deflection: vs All, +5 to roll 
 
24	4d6 Entangle: , Transparent (+1/2), Only Binds two Limbs (-1/2),  
	Concentrate: 0 DCV (-1/2), Full Phase (-1/4), IIF: Hair Ornaments 
10	Armor: 3 DEF, Invisible Power Effects (+1/2), OIH (-1/4) 
12	Damage Reduction: 1/4 Physical Resistant,  OIH (-1/4) 
4	Running: +2" (8"/16") 
6	Superleap: +6" (8"/4") 
 
3	Acrobatics 14- 
3	Breakfall 14- 
3	Climbing 14- 
2	KS: Demons, devils and other monsters 11- 
2	KS: History of the Mano clan 11- 
1	KS: Shinto Rites 8- 
3	Stealth 14- 
10	CSL: +2 with HTH 
8	CSL: +4 DCV with Flying Dodge 
 
Disadvantages 
100	Base 
15	DF: Outfit (Conceal, Major reaction) 
10	DNPC: Chigako Ogawa (norm) 8- 
15	DNPC: Azusa Kanzaki (less pow) 14- 
20	Hunted: Demons (assorted) 14- 
10	Psych: A bit of a 'fluff brain' 
15	Psych: Falls in love at the drop of a hat 
5	Unluck: 1d6 
10	Rivalry: Ayako Mano (prof and romantic) 
69	Mamano Bonus 
 
(Devil Hunter Yohko created by Masao Moruyoma, character sheet created by 
Michael Surbrook) 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 23:44:30 -0400 (EDT) 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Grant Enfield <genfield@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
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Brian Wong wrote: 
 
>4: they bump in Columbus 
 
 
 
um . . . isn't this a family-oriented list??  OR is that how they do things 
in Columbus? 
 
 
 
thank you for letting me waste all your time, 
 
 
 
grant 
 
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Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 23:01:22 -0700 
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com> 
Organization: None 
To: "Champ's Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Archtypes 
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I've noticed that the Archtypes discussion has run its course and was 
wondering if anyone finally got them all down or not.... 
 
I'm really into fiddling with established norms for villains and heroes 
and I was looking for some quick source material. (I'm terribley lazy 
and I love to see other gamer's takes on characters) 
 
I don't care what point totals are used so..... 
 
 
 
If no one wants this topic to rear its ugly head again respond privately 
 
 
 
Thankz, 
Chad 
chadriley01@sprynet.com 
 
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Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 23:42:21 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Erasing Memories 
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>  
>  
> Things with point costs can be bought with character points and sold for 
> character points.  Except for these unimportant memories which have a point 
> cost but cannot be bought with or sold for character points. 
>  
> Excuse me if I cannot see anything complete or consistant about the idea. 
 
I believe that the argument runs as follows: 
 
The everyman power "memory" should have an implied point cost, just as   
normal sight should have an implicit point cost.  Subject to GM approval,  
it can be sold back in lieu of taking a Phys Lim.  Memories, on the other  
hand, are an *instance* of a power, which don't cost points, but can be  
dispelled or suppressed. 
 
Consider Darkness bought as a continuing charge.  This is a power that  
costs points.  Casting a Darkness does not cost points, it costs a  
charge.  Once I cast an instance of Darkness, it can be dispelled or  
suppressed, but it cannot be sold back for points. 
 
Similarly, the ability to remember things could be sold back, but an  
individual memory is merely an instance, subject to being dispelled.  I  
suppose that the implied power Memory has a couple of levels of "Hard to  
Dispel" associated with it, with the SFX limitation that they only apply  
to important or vivid memories. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 04:55:48 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
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> 	If understood it correctly, no fantasy hero setting not set in that 
> world would be considered publishable. 
 
  Then you misunderstand what Steve Peterson has explained. He clearly stated 
that they could still publish unrelated genre books. They're not limited to 
only that timeline. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 05:48:37 -0500 (CDT) 
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To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Subject: Re: Opening Day 
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> PLAY BALL!!! 
> 
>Oh, man! we went through this last year! 
> 
>A BASEBALL GAME IS NOT COMBAT! 
> 
>And that is all I will say this time around. 
 
What about Hockey?   
Rising Force Publications 
Herozine, The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist our recently updated web site... 
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
"You have never lived until you have almost died.  
And for those who fight for it, 
life has a flavor the protected never know"  
- anonymous 
 
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Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 07:07:45 -0500 
To: hero-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Old Hero System products 
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Recent mention of "Wings of the Valkyrie" -- a product I don't recall 
having heard of before this week, although I started buying Champions 
material about the time Champions II came out -- made me wonder how many 
other adventures or sourcebooks there might be out there that I'm not aware 
of.  I went back through my collections and listed all the gaps in the 
sequence of product numbers.  Can anyone tell me what these items are: 
 
HERO03 
HERO05 
HERO07 
HERO13 
HERO33 
HERO37 
HERO43 
HERO45 
HERO49 
 
Thanks. 
 
Damon 
 
 
 
|--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************| 
|--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/     | 
|   Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines           | 
|       Worthy Causes -- Computer -- Atlanta -- All Human Knowledge  | 
|--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 06:23:02 -0700 (PDT) 
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>  
> > 	If understood it correctly, no fantasy hero setting not set in that 
> > world would be considered publishable. 
>  
>   Then you misunderstand what Steve Peterson has explained. He clearly stated 
> that they could still publish unrelated genre books. They're not limited to 
> only that timeline. 
> 
	I know that's been stated now, but the thing did begin by saying 
'anyone who wants to publish for hero plus must read this'. 
 
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:37:04 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Reply-To headers (was Re: Reply = Reply To All ?) 
To: "INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by Stainless Steel Rat 
>I'll be nice and give it a grace period to go away.  Come next Mondy, if 
it 
is still there, I am gone.< 
 
That's a silly reason to give up valuable Hero System discussion.... 
 
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Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 08:44:09 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org, champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net> 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 07:20 PM 4/9/98 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
> You gotta be kidding me. This was the dippiest suppliment since European 
> Enemies. 240+ point _agents_ working for Genocide? And most of the 
> character writeups were similarly over-powered to the extreme. The biker 
> gang was the only redeeming bit... 
 
"Dippy" wouldn't be the word I chose for it. "Misdirected", maybe. I tend to 
class _The MUTANT File_ in the "Good Ideas Run Amuck" category. There's very 
little in the book I'm not using in my campaigns _somehow_ ... but there's 
also very little in the book that got used "as is", or even close to "as 
is". As written, there's just too much "k001ness" in the book, that vague 
spirit inherent in newbie munchkins who can't wait to impress you with their 
terminally badass creations. As much as has been talked about the point 
totals, I think there was even more of a need for /conceptual/ restraint 
than point restraint. For example: 
 
* I toned down the Genocide agents a little, basically by rendering the 
various ranks into package deals and equipment attached to Competent 
Normals, and by revising the equipment to get rid of its "shopping list" 
feeping creaturism. I think it's more interesting to have an anti-mutant 
organization that ISN'T teeming with power-nullifying technology -- it's too 
EASY to go that route. 
 
* In my own campaign, Rex Albus's branch covers the entire Americas, and 
Purifier is /his/ Bishop. Regina Atra has been retconned into a Japanese 
woman in charge of the Asian branch (it was really silly to create a 
bureacratic setup that ignores China, Russia, AND India, the three most 
populous -- and thus probably most mutant-ous -- nations in the world!). 
 
* IMAGE makes for a nice "bad guy mutants" group, but they don't have the 
"army of thousands" described in their writeup. Like I said, conceptual 
restraint. 
 
* Say "No" to "advanced generation mutants" -- these are based on the 
serious misconception of evolution as a linear process from single-celled 
organisms to Gods On Earth (which, incidentally, is the same misconception 
that fuels IMAGE, the BAD guys ... it's usually A Bad Idea(tm) to make the 
villains *right*). There is no "good" or "bad" in the evolutionary chain -- 
if you lived to produce offspring, you were "good". 
 
And so on. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 10:13:32 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: More book reviews, please 
To: "INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Here are some more books that sound interesting.  A few of these might not 
be out of print, but I think most of them are.  Could someone (or several 
someones) give me brief revies of these: 
 
* Creatures of the Night: Horror Enemies 
* Corporations 
* Enemies for Hire 
* Enemies Assemble 
* Atlantis 
* Foxbat Unhinged 
 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Wings of the Valkries 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-8,12-13,20-21,24-26 
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts) 
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 10:20:41 EDT 
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>>OK, Puma give, just WHAT this supplement about? 
>>Never heard of/saw it! Do like Valkries though! ^_^ 
>> 
>In (very) short, the PC's have to time travel to save Hitler. You can  
>see 
>why they got in trouble... 
> 
 
I recently got a copy of this through www.dragontrove.com (the same place 
I found the VIPER supplement, and no I don't know if he has any more {of 
either} in stock).  I was going to throw in spoiler space here, but it 
looks like by now the whole list knows the basic idea. 
 
Several Holocaust survivors (some with superhuman powers, some TPOs, one 
scientific genius to build the time machine) intend to travel back to 
1931 and kill enough key Nazis to ensure the Holocaust never happens.  
Unfortunately, when Our Heroes are caught in the time travel field, they 
find out that the "new" timeline is even worse than the one it replaced.  
They then have to time-hop to Munich before the Children of the Holocaust 
can start the massacre and make sure history isn't changed. 
 
Sorry Puma, no real Valkyries in the story -- the plan to change history 
was named after a real-world Operation Valkyrie (the plot to kill Hitler 
in 1944). 
 
Leah 
 
_____________________________________________________________________ 
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. 
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 00:40:55 +1000 
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>  
> 	All mixed up, no clue about what genre they should be in. 
> Work's on a fantasy version of Babe Watch on the tele, but I stopped 
> being able to play or GM in this setting after middle school.  
 
I assume you mean that it's more mature to play within solidly defined and 
previously  
existing genre? speaking as a mature person myself- shea RIGHT! 
 
 
>Around the 
> same time the minimum acceptable stat for a PC went below 18 in my group. 
:) 
> 	(And, yes, saying minimum was not a typo) 
>  
> 	Multigenre on drugs. :) 
 
*snort* i can beat that. we used the champions stat scale while playing 
ad&d. ..  
 
 
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 00:41:59 +1000 
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> > 
> > I never heard anything about Battletech being related (never read much 
> > of the game), but I do remember something about Earthdawn and 
> > Shadowrun being related somehow (heck, just look at the critters in 
> > each, lots of duplicates). 
>  
> 	I don't know if Battletech was said or not, but the world would 
> fit just fine with the other two.  Magic would just have receeded again. 
>  
>  
 
*drool* anyone for awakened mechs? TELL me that isn't a cool idea. .  
 
>  
> 				-Tim Gilberg 
>  
> 		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
>  
 
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 00:47:44 +1000 
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>  
> Message text written by Stainless Steel Rat 
> >I'll be nice and give it a grace period to go away.  Come next Mondy, if 
> it 
> is still there, I am gone.< 
>  
> That's a silly reason to give up valuable Hero System discussion.... 
 
um, isn't it like, way more convinient, and stuff? or am i on the wrong 
thread? 
 
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Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 08:06:52 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 06:23 AM 4/9/1998 -0700, Brian Wong wrote: 
>>  
>> >  If understood it correctly, no fantasy hero setting not set in that 
>> > world would be considered publishable. 
>>  
>>   Then you misunderstand what Steve Peterson has explained. He clearly 
stated 
>> that they could still publish unrelated genre books. They're not limited to 
>> only that timeline. 
>> 
> I know that's been stated now, but the thing did begin by saying 
>'anyone who wants to publish for hero plus must read this'. 
 
   I happen to still have Steve's original post, and in actuality he said 
no such thing, nor anything even close.  He did state that this is where 
the new Dark Champions and Justice, Inc. revisions are going to be set, and 
that they are looking for authors for other settings.  And it arguably goes 
without saying that anyone who wants to write for the Hero Universe will 
need to know the layout.  But they will be publishing other stuff, Broken 
Kingdoms being one example. 
   For my own part, I have two all-original things on the drawing board 
that I'd like to do, and only one of them would go into the Hero Universe. 
For over a decade I've wanted to put together a setting that would combine 
elements of space opera and high fantasy, a sort of "Star Trek" with 
wizards.  I kinda gave up on it after Spelljammer was released, but reading 
through the Hero Universe timeline revived it; I think it could fit quite 
well into the 47th century, sandwiched between the Rebellion and the era of 
the Galactic Champions. 
   The other idea, which would definitely *not* fit into the Hero Universe, 
is something I call Chaos Theory (a sort of X-Files a la Zucker). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 08:10:24 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Reply-To headers (was Re: Reply = Reply To All ?) 
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At 09:37 AM 4/9/1998 -0400, David B Stallard wrote: 
>Message text written by Stainless Steel Rat 
>>I'll be nice and give it a grace period to go away.  Come next Mondy, if 
>it is still there, I am gone.< 
> 
>That's a silly reason to give up valuable Hero System discussion.... 
 
   Sh!  ;-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 12:28:14 -0400 
x-sender: dfair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <dfair@sdslink.com> 
To: "Hero Games" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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On 4/9/98 10:13 AM David B Stallard (DBStallard@compuserve.com) Said: 
 
>* Creatures of the Night: Horror Enemies 
 
I have this but don't use it, It is not really my favorite Genre. If you  
like that sort of thing then it would be good. As I recall it was well  
written, but very derivitave. 
 
>* Corporations 
 
My second-favorite Hero book Ever. Using the Ideas and companies in here  
can potentially add a great deal to the plotting and believability of a  
campaign. 
 
>* Atlantis 
 
Without a doubt, the best book Hero has ever done. Great Art, Great story  
hooks and plot elements, many different options presented, and a Minimum  
of new rules. It was somewhat derivitave, but with this subject matter,  
that is very hard to avoid. 
 
>* Foxbat Unhinged 
 
Ugh, Foxbat. The worst villian Hero ever made gets his own book.  
Thrillsville. 
 
David A. Fair         | 
SDS International     |     Think Different 
dfair@sdslink.com     | 
 
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:38:13 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Sharky Dangerthorn <dangerthorn@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Well, I know that the Herozine website has a review of Foxbat 
Unhinged.  Just read it the other day.  I don't recall the URL, 
though, sorry.  ;-) 
 
 
 
 
---David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> wrote: 
> 
> Here are some more books that sound interesting.  A few of these 
might not 
> be out of print, but I think most of them are.  Could someone (or 
several 
> someones) give me brief revies of these: 
>  
> * Creatures of the Night: Horror Enemies 
> * Corporations 
> * Enemies for Hire 
> * Enemies Assemble 
> * Atlantis 
> * Foxbat Unhinged 
>  
 
== 
Jim Dickinson -=- Portland/Salem, OR, USA 
a.k.a. Sharky Dangerthorn, Midget, Hey You! 
Nicks on DALnet (IRC): Da_Midge Game_Knight 
 
Castle Game Knight: http://www.aircyber.net/~jd/cgk 
Join the Circle of HEROs: http://www.aircyber.net/~jd/coh 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:39:31 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Sharky Dangerthorn <dangerthorn@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Re: The Watchmen 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Wow!  Great website!  Thanks! 
 
 
 
 
---Legionair <Legionair@aol.com> wrote: 
> 
> I don't remember who was looking for the Watchmen information, but I 
found a 
> pretty in-depth site on the subject... 
>  
> http://student-www.uchicago.edu/users/jbfliege/watchmen.html 
>  
> It has a full write up of the additional information that was in the 
Mayfair 
> DC Heroes supplement as well. 
>  
> Jason 
>  
 
== 
Jim Dickinson -=- Portland/Salem, OR, USA 
a.k.a. Sharky Dangerthorn, Midget, Hey You! 
Nicks on DALnet (IRC): Da_Midge Game_Knight 
 
Castle Game Knight: http://www.aircyber.net/~jd/cgk 
Join the Circle of HEROs: http://www.aircyber.net/~jd/coh 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 13:07:41 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Reply = Reply To All ? 
To: "INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by John Desmarais: 
>Now that's weird.  All of the mail programs I use show the FROM field 
in the list of messages and hide the REPLY-TO field unless you read 
the header or reply to the message. What mail program are you using?< 
 
I'm using CompuServe, which may not have a sophisticated enough mail 
reader.  I have a few other email addresses that would probably act as you 
describe, but this address is the most convenient for getting this mailing 
list. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Reply-To headers (was Re: Reply = Reply To All ?) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
>>>>> On Thu, 9 Apr 1998 09:37:04 -0400, David B Stallard 
>>>>> <DBStallard@compuserve.com> said: 
 
> Message text written by Stainless Steel Rat 
>> I'll be nice and give it a grace period to go away.  Come next Mondy, if 
> it 
> is still there, I am gone.< 
 
> That's a silly reason to give up valuable Hero System discussion.... 
 
You are right, it is silly.  So is a mailing list that says I have to go 
out of my way to properly direct my replies.  I have better things to do 
with my time. 
 
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 13:11:59 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Watchers of the Dragon 
To: "INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Does Watchers of the Dragon assume that you have Ultimate Martial Artist, 
freely using rules from that book? 
 
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Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 10:17:33 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 12:41 AM 4/10/98 +1000, happyelf wrote: 
> 
>> > 
>> > I never heard anything about Battletech being related (never read much 
>> > of the game), but I do remember something about Earthdawn and 
>> > Shadowrun being related somehow (heck, just look at the critters in 
>> > each, lots of duplicates). 
>>  
>> 	I don't know if Battletech was said or not, but the world would 
>> fit just fine with the other two.  Magic would just have receeded again. 
>>  
>>  
> 
>*drool* anyone for awakened mechs? TELL me that isn't a cool idea. .  
 
(Sing)"We wish to welcome you to Munchkin Land!"(/Sing) 
 
It's 20 meters tall, covered with ultrahardium armor, carriers enough 
missiles to destroy a city...and it's sentient and casts spells. How many 
smegging points is THAT worth? 
 
(Hmmm...excpet for the spells, that would pretty much describe a 
Transformer, so maybe it isn't so Munchkin...) 
 
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 13:18:01 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
To: "INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by David Fair: 
>Ugh, Foxbat. The worst villian Hero ever made gets his own book.  
Thrillsville.< 
 
This got me thinking...would books dedicated to "serious" villains be 
plausible?  Most villains wouldn't warrant their own sourcebook, but I 
could definitely see a whole book dedicated to Dr. Destroyer, for example.  
I also wouldn't mind seeing more villain team books like the Zodiac book (I 
will pay extra for the color art!). 
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Reply-To headers (was Re: Reply = Reply To All ?) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 10:39:53 -0700 (PDT) 
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> >> I'll be nice and give it a grace period to go away.  Come next Mondy, if 
> > it 
> > is still there, I am gone.< 
>  
> > That's a silly reason to give up valuable Hero System discussion.... 
>  
> You are right, it is silly.  So is a mailing list that says I have to go 
> out of my way to properly direct my replies.  I have better things to do 
> with my time. 
 
	Which is why it's easier to have the reply to go to the list, thus 
allowing the message to automaticly go to the list, and only the list. Which 
can be changed manually on those rare messages that don't go to the list. 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 14:01:34 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< A few of these might not be out of print, but I think most of them are. >> 
 
  I would strongly urge checking out our web page, and going to our products 
list. People keep mentioning "I think this is out of print," when clearly it 
isn't. For the record <G>, all of the books you listed are still available. So 
are a great many other 4th Ed books. All you have to do is go to the source. 
Why ask the "masses?" They may also be mistaken about the status of a product. 
 
  To find out if we have a 4th Ed book in stock, go to: 
 
  http://members.aol.com/goldrushg 
 
<< Could someone (or several someones) give me brief revies of these: >> 
<< * Corporations >> 
 
  An awesome book. I hear the authors are really cool guys, one of which now 
publishes 4th Ed books. ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Reply-To headers (was Re: Reply = Reply To All ?) 
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Brian Wong writes: 
 
> 	Which is why it's easier to have the reply to go to the list, thus 
> allowing the message to automaticly go to the list, and only the 
> list. Which can be changed manually on those rare messages that don't go 
> to the list. 
 
Yeah... except for those of us used to good mail clients that do the right 
thing and fill in the headers properly depending upon whether we "reply to 
originator" or "reply to list".  Instead of making less work, it makes it 
more work, because I cannot easilly send a reply to a person using the same 
command that I use for every other mailing list I am on. 
 
Worse, I keep setting a Reply-To pointing back to myself to keep this from 
becoming a list-wide discussion, and the boneheaded mail manager robot 
keeps replacing it with a Reply-To header pointing at the list. 
 
Sorry, I know better than anyone else where my responses should go.  Any 
boneheaded mail robot that thinks it knows better than I gets dropped. 
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 11:13:45 -0700 (PDT) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> >> >  If understood it correctly, no fantasy hero setting not set in that 
> >> > world would be considered publishable. 
> >>   Then you misunderstand what Steve Peterson has explained. He clearly 
> stated 
> >> that they could still publish unrelated genre books. They're not limited to 
> >> only that timeline. 
> >> 
> > I know that's been stated now, but the thing did begin by saying 
> >'anyone who wants to publish for hero plus must read this'. 
>  
>    I happen to still have Steve's original post, and in actuality he said 
> no such thing, nor anything even close.  He did state that this is where 
 
	This is a direct quote from the digital hero webpage: 
 
********* 
 
This Week (4/2/98): 
 
     I managed to miss a couple of weeks of Digital Hero updates due to computer 
     shuffling and web redesign stuff. So, we're going to get back on track with those 
     weekly updates, starting with this week. Sorry about the interruption. 
 
        1.Conversion Corner: That family of adventurer-scientist-heroes, the 
          Wilders, are here in all their 4th Edition glory.  
        2.The Hero Universe: If you want to know how Fantasy Hero, Justice 
          Inc., Champions: New Millennium, and CyberHero all hang together, 
          this article will tell you. Steve Peterson and Steve Long look at the Hero 
          Universe throughout the ages. This document is full of adventure settings 
          (and book ideas!). Note: If you are interested in writing for Hero 
          Plus, you need to check this out!  
 
***** 
	It's right there in the last line. 
 
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Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 11:17:19 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:13 AM 4/9/1998 -0400, David B Stallard wrote: 
>Here are some more books that sound interesting.  A few of these might not 
>be out of print, but I think most of them are.  Could someone (or several 
>someones) give me brief revies of these: 
 
   I'll do what I can.  :-] 
 
>* Creatures of the Night: Horror Enemies 
 
   I'd call this one Above Average.  Also, the title is a little 
misleading; there's more attention to giving a sense of horror in a 
superhero setting than to duplicating the various styles of horror 
monsters.  Certainly there are vampires, demons, mind-sucking aliens, and 
the obligatory amorphous horror, but it's definitely geared toward 
superhero-level games.  The whole thing is followed up by a couple of 
weakly-researched essays on Satanists and serial killers (neither 
altogether useless, but neither as useful as it could be). 
   For as critical as the preceding paragraph was, it's not all bad; far 
from it, in fact.  The introduction, describing how to do horror stories in 
various genres (and this book predated Horror Hero, BTW), is almost worth 
the price of admission all by itself.  If you do want real horror enemies 
for a superhero or vigilante campaign (the latter generally needing a 
mystic bent), there are plenty here, and the character write-ups definitely 
live up to the highest standards of Hero Games' published enemies. 
 
>* Corporations 
 
   This one is harder to call.  I own it, of course, and it's one of my 
favorite Champions sourcebooks.  Others have loathed it, or at least not 
found it especially useful. 
   Most of the twenty-six corporations listed in this book have ties to 
other Champions Universe entities (sometimes more than one), and each has a 
very usable adventure idea, often using under-utilized entities in the CU 
and giving even more inspiration for adventures.  There is also some useful 
information on how corporations actually work, and how some of these 
functions can be defined in Hero System terms.  This is capped off with a 
villain group, the Corporate Raiders, who work as corporate spies and 
saboteurs for hire.  I don't think anyone who uses the Champions Universe 
extensively should afford to be without it, and those who like to mix and 
match can find a lot of useful stuff as well. 
 
>* Enemies for Hire 
 
   In the category of Good Ideas Executed Poorly, I'll put this one right 
next to Champions Universe.  Actually, "poorly" may be too strong of a 
word; there are a number of truly useful and interesting characters in 
here.  The attempt at fleshing out the ranks of GRAB, if nothing else, is 
laudable, and most of the characters toward that end are quite acceptable 
(though the main exception to that is also the only male one; is that a 
good thing for Black Claw, or not?).  However, some of the characters fit 
rather poorly into the Champions Universe continuity, and others are just 
plain silly or stupid.  So call it a mixed bag. 
   The Good Idea part, by the way, is the policy of putting each character 
on a two-page spread, with the picture and UNTIL-provided information on 
the first page (to the right) and the character sheet and GM's information 
on the second page (to the left).  The theory, I gather, was that the GM 
could photocopy the first page and use it as a handout.  Unfortunately, the 
dividing line didn't always fall at the page break, so even this cool 
innovation falls a bit flat. 
 
>* Enemies Assemble 
 
   If this book had nothing other than the updates of the Ultimates and 
Foxbat (with Exo-Skeleton Man and his "legion" of four agents), then it 
would still be worth the price of admission.  There are three other villain 
groups in this book, however, each of which presents PCs with a different 
challenge.  So in spite of the absence of Foxbat's vehicles and some 
relatively minor editing glitches with the Ultimates and one of the other 
groups, I'd call this book a top-notch piece of work. 
   For that matter, one could probably buy just Champions and this book, 
and have six villain groups (counting the Asesinos) to base an entire 
campaign around. 
 
>* Atlantis 
 
   The Hero Writers' Guidelines mentions something about writing in a way 
that even someone who doesn't game can find it interesting reading. 
Patrick Bradley has this practice down to an art form.  Though you'd need 
to understand Champions to fully understand Atlantis, it's a worthwhile 
book even if you never use it in a game. 
   If you do want to use it in a game, though, you'll find a full history, 
a map of the city and its environs, and a series of adventure seeds that 
can be spread over a long period within the campaign to gradually bring 
Atlantis from unknown entity to a member of the UN.  Then there's a 
bestiary of underwater creatures, an extra water-based supervillain group, 
rules on running things underwater... 
   In short, it's one of the best things Hero Games has ever put out.  It's 
not perfect (what is?), but it's a model that other authors should follow. 
 
>* Foxbat Unhinged 
 
   Here's where you can find write-ups of Foxbat's vehicles, though none of 
his gang (from Enemies Assemble!) is around.  You'll also find a pair of 
outlandish scenarios featuring Foxbat (one of which goes into what happens 
when he gets his hands on Alladdin's Lamp).  These are two areas that are 
lacking the Foxbat write-up in Enemies Assemble!, and I like to use this 
book as an addendum to that. 
   It's definitely worth the money.  Just be careful about who follows you 
home after you buy it. 
   Nuff said. 
   Excelsior. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 14:20:58 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< My second-favorite Hero book Ever. Using the Ideas and companies in here 
can potentially add a great deal to the plotting and believability of a 
campaign.>> 
 
  (Talkes off publisher hat and puts on author hat) Yay, a fan! <LOL> Ebvene 
after a few years, it's nice to hear good things about your work. 
 
  Mark Arsenault 
  Co-author, Corporations 
 
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Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 11:22:57 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Watchers of the Dragon 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 01:11 PM 4/9/1998 -0400, David B Stallard wrote: 
>Does Watchers of the Dragon assume that you have Ultimate Martial Artist, 
>freely using rules from that book? 
 
   Yes and no.  It does use the rules, though most of the constructs are 
described in enough detail that you can see how something should be managed 
without necessarily having to refer to TUMA.  Only a couple of the 
characters really start to fall down (so to speak) without the other book. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 11:39:19 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:13 AM 4/9/1998 -0700, Brian Wong wrote: 
>> >> >  If understood it correctly, no fantasy hero setting not set in that 
>> >> > world would be considered publishable. 
>> >>   Then you misunderstand what Steve Peterson has explained. He 
clearly stated 
>> >> that they could still publish unrelated genre books. They're not 
limited to 
>> >> only that timeline. 
>> >> 
>> > I know that's been stated now, but the thing did begin by saying 
>> >'anyone who wants to publish for hero plus must read this'. 
>>  
>>    I happen to still have Steve's original post, and in actuality he said 
>> no such thing, nor anything even close.  He did state that this is where 
> 
> This is a direct quote from the digital hero webpage: 
> 
>********* 
> 
>This Week (4/2/98): 
> 
>     I managed to miss a couple of weeks of Digital Hero updates due to 
computer 
>     shuffling and web redesign stuff. So, we're going to get back on 
track with those 
>     weekly updates, starting with this week. Sorry about the interruption. 
> 
>        1.Conversion Corner: That family of adventurer-scientist-heroes, the 
>          Wilders, are here in all their 4th Edition glory.  
>        2.The Hero Universe: If you want to know how Fantasy Hero, Justice 
>          Inc., Champions: New Millennium, and CyberHero all hang together, 
>          this article will tell you. Steve Peterson and Steve Long look 
at the Hero 
>          Universe throughout the ages. This document is full of adventure 
settings 
>          (and book ideas!). Note: If you are interested in writing for Hero 
>          Plus, you need to check this out!  
> 
>***** 
> It's right there in the last line. 
 
   There's a subtle difference between "must" and "need to."  The tone of 
the web page statement indicated to me, from the start, that it was an 
imperative rather than a directive.  In other words, Bruce was urging any 
prospective Hero Plus writers to look at this, since it was how they were 
going to be operating the Hero Universe in the future. 
   When you start worrying that no non-Hero Universe stuff will be 
accepted, just remind yourself of Bright Future and Broken Kingdoms.  If 
that doesn't work, send a query about a non-HU work and see what comes back. 
   (BTW Steve & Steve, when C:TNM first came out, most folks on the list 
regarded the world described there as a separate world from the one we're 
more familiar with, just as that other Steve guy did in his conversation 
between the two Seekers.  With Shelley's PRIMUS update coming up and my own 
VOICE update now under way, it looks to me like you're going to be 
continuing support of the old Champions Universe as well as the new Hero 
Universe; am I right?) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 11:45:05 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: Reply-To headers (was Re: Reply = Reply To All ?) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Sorry, I'm with Brian. I greatly prefer this method. 99.99% of my responses 
go to the list, so this saves me a lot of trouble. 
 
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From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: CHAR: Devil Hunter Yohko 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 13:45:22 -0500  
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Characteristics, defenses, etc. looked a little wimpy (IMHO) 
but altogether very good! Like to see anime stuff on list! 
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
	"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"  
					- Joan of Arc's .sig 
     Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
 
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Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 11:51:22 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org, champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:13 AM 4/9/98 -0700, Brian Wong wrote: 
> 
>          (and book ideas!). Note: If you are interested in writing for Hero 
>          Plus, you need to check this out!  
> 
>***** 
>	It's right there in the last line. 
> 
I guess I'm more hype-immune than most. I interpret that last line along 
the lines of "If you like pulse-pounding action, you need to see this 
movie!". It's not like they said, "Any supplements not conforming to this 
timeline will be summarily rejected and their authors added to Harbringers 
'to do' list." 
 
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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 11:51:22 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org, champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:13 AM 4/9/98 -0700, Brian Wong wrote: 
> 
>          (and book ideas!). Note: If you are interested in writing for Hero 
>          Plus, you need to check this out!  
> 
>***** 
>	It's right there in the last line. 
> 
I guess I'm more hype-immune than most. I interpret that last line along 
the lines of "If you like pulse-pounding action, you need to see this 
movie!". It's not like they said, "Any supplements not conforming to this 
timeline will be summarily rejected and their authors added to Harbringers 
'to do' list." 
 
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 14:09:01 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: "INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Reply = Reply To All ? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> I'm using CompuServe, which may not have a sophisticated enough mail 
> reader.  I have a few other email addresses that would probably act as you 
> describe, but this address is the most convenient for getting this mailing 
> list. 
 
	Um, then get a better mail reader.  Inferior software on the part 
of some is no reason to penalize those that have their software set up to 
do things the right way.  There _is_ a PC port of pine that will handle 
mail better than any of the commercial releases.  And it's freeware. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 12:30:23 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Sharky Dangerthorn <dangerthorn@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Re: Reply-To headers and Junk Threads 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
---Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> wrote: 
>  
> 	Which is why it's easier to have the reply to go to the list, thus 
> allowing the message to automaticly go to the list, and only the 
list. Which 
> can be changed manually on those rare messages that don't go to the 
list. 
>  
 
I think this list has enough bogus, off-topic messages on it already.  
Making it more difficult to take threads off-list is a poor 
list-management decision, IMHO. 
 
A prime example is this very thread.  It has consumed far too much 
list bandwidth already.  I would have replied directly to you, but 
hitting the reply button only gives the list address, and I am left 
with the option of copying and pasting your email address into the To: 
field instead. 
 
Some may say I am just lazy for not doing that.  And it's probably 
true.  But I think the bottom line is that there is a simple, 
fundamental philosophical difference in this argument. 
 
One side of the debate has no concern over the amount of list traffic 
received that is little more than junk, while the other side of the 
debate is looking to reduce that junk down to more relevant 
conversation. 
 
Maybe I am different from most people on the list.  I end up getting 
my 100+ champ-l emails, and then I have to sort the mailbox by 
subject...primarily so I can summarily delete 75 of those messages 
that are basically junk-threads.  Call me whatever you want, but I 
think that this is just a waste. 
 
I have debated dropping the list many times because I get so tired of 
having to sort mail on this list like it was a newsgroup.  It's just 
plain old annoying. 
 
Maybe one of the folks on the "Reply-To-Lovers" side of the discussion 
would be willing to start "moderating" this mailing list to weed out 
the junk threads???  That would be a very acceptible compromise to the 
debate, eh? 
 
Jim 
 
 
== 
Jim Dickinson -=- Portland/Salem, OR, USA 
a.k.a. Sharky Dangerthorn, Midget, Hey You! 
Nicks on DALnet (IRC): Da_Midge Game_Knight 
 
Castle Game Knight: http://www.aircyber.net/~jd/cgk 
Join the Circle of HEROs: http://www.aircyber.net/~jd/coh 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 12:51:20 -0700 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Bob G reviewed: 
>* Enemies for Hire 
>The Good Idea part, by the way, is the policy of putting each character 
>on a two-page spread, with the picture and UNTIL-provided information 
>on the first page (to the right) and the character sheet and GM's  
>information on the second page (to the left).  The theory, I gather, 
was 
>that the GM could photocopy the first page and use it as a handout. 
>Unfortunately, the dividing line didn't always fall at the page break, 
>so even this cool innovation falls a bit flat. 
 
As I remember, part of this was not under the creators' control, 
however. All the post-it notes (that look so cool) weren't supposed to 
be there. The notes are there to cover up text that ties to previous 
characters, modules, etc. within the past suite of Champions products, 
for some real interconnectedness. But many of the references had to be 
removed, since the characters referenced were not under Hero's control 
(published by Hero but outside the Champions Universe), so some of the 
text comes off choppy or refers to backgrounds of other characters 
within the book that got the relevant part post-it noted over. 
 
Earlier drafts were much more cohesive and impressive. I say this not as 
a shot against Hero's editing, but against the lack of understanding of 
the Hero policy by the authors, who developed a wonderful product that 
unfortunately wasn't quite suited as written. 
 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
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From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: More book reviews, please 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 14:51:49 -0500  
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
One of Pumas fav was "The Mutant File". 
Very well done, including explanation of 
just what mutants are. Could have used 
mutant package deals (based what they 
say all mutants/2nd gen. mutants have). 
But, all in all, very good supplement. A 
must have if you want run "mutie" game! 
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
	"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"  
					- Joan of Arc's .sig 
     Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
 
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 15:57:25 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) 
From: Duane Morris <duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca> 
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Reply = Reply To All ? 
X-X-Sender: duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
>  
> > I'm using CompuServe, which may not have a sophisticated enough mail 
> > reader.  I have a few other email addresses that would probably act as you 
> > describe, but this address is the most convenient for getting this mailing 
> > list. 
>  
> 	Um, then get a better mail reader.  Inferior software on the part 
> of some is no reason to penalize those that have their software set up to 
> do things the right way.  There _is_ a PC port of pine that will handle 
> mail better than any of the commercial releases.  And it's freeware. 
 
(: 
 
And you can get it setup to ask if you want to the "Reply To:" field or 
the "From:" field... 
 
Duane. 
 
------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Duane Morris <duane@turing.sci.yorku.ca>   Dept. of Technical Services 
Faculty of Pure and Applied Science        Petrie Science Stores 
York University, North York, Ontario  M3J 1P3, CANADA 
Voice: (416) 736-5244; Fax: (416) 736-5516 
 
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X-Sender: nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us 
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 15:58:05 -0400 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us> 
Subject: Re: Reply = Reply To All ? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 02:09 PM 4/9/98 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
>> I'm using CompuServe, which may not have a sophisticated enough mail 
>> reader.  I have a few other email addresses that would probably act as you 
>> describe, but this address is the most convenient for getting this mailing 
>> list. 
> 
>	Um, then get a better mail reader.  Inferior software on the part 
>of some is no reason to penalize those that have their software set up to 
>do things the right way.  There _is_ a PC port of pine that will handle 
>mail better than any of the commercial releases.  And it's freeware. 
 
I don't have a strong opinion on the Reply to thing; I find the current 
arrangement slightly more convenient than the way it's been in the past, 
but I'm willing to consider the interests of others. 
 
I do think, though, that the list _should_ make some allowances for those 
of us with "inferior software." Not everyone on the list can have the 
optimum mail utility, and it's often not a matter of choice, laziness, or 
even ignorance. For example, I read my mail via three different set-ups in 
the course of a typical day: using Eudora on my 8 year old Mac at home, 
using Eudora on my office PC, and using a telnet connection to the 
mainframe (an Alpha with a VMS operating system) from the reference desk 
where I spend much of my work day. I'm satisfied with both versions of 
Eudora, but the Alpha's mail utility leaves a lot to be desired and there's 
nothing I can do about it. (Well, I could refrain from responding to the 
list while I'm at work, but where's the fun in that?) 
 
I'm sure there are others out there with more difficult circumstances than 
mine; I think the list should make reasonable accomodations for those who 
don't have access to the best hardware and software around. 
 
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X-SMTP: helo x6.boston.juno.com from dwtoomey@juno.com server @x6.boston.juno.com ip 205.231.101.23 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 15:02:51 -0500 
Subject: Re: Reply = Reply To All ?) 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-15,17-19,21-23,26-31 
From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David W Toomey) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>> You are right, it is silly.  So is a mailing list that says I have  
>to go 
>> out of my way to properly direct my replies.  I have better things  
>to do 
>> with my time. 
> 
>	Which is why it's easier to have the reply to go to the list,  
>thus 
>allowing the message to automaticly go to the list, and only the list.  
>Which 
>can be changed manually on those rare messages that don't go to the  
>list. 
 
 
 I disagree.  I can keep one address (the list) either in my mind or my 
mail-server's Address Book with no problem, so entering it is not a 
difficulty.  Sorting through the header, or chopping up the file to get 
the  
initial sender can be a pain. 
 
 I may differ from most people here, but most of my responses *are* 
private 
e-mail, not postings to the lists as a whole. 
 
 And, finally, I have Juno as my mail server.  It is fairly limited (no 
attachments, etc), but it does give me the choice of replying to the 
sender or to the sender and 
all recipients, which I can use to post to the list. 
 
 
David W Toomey 
dwtoomey@juno.com 
 
_____________________________________________________________________ 
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. 
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com 
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] 
 
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From: rcole@ezy.net (Ron Cole) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Reply-To headers and Junk Threads 
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 16:03:27 -0400 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id QAA02080 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>Maybe one of the folks on the "Reply-To-Lovers" side of the discussion 
>would be willing to start "moderating" this mailing list to weed out 
>the junk threads???  That would be a very acceptible compromise to the 
>debate, eh? 
 
One man's trash is another man's treasure.  I'd rather see the default reply-to 
set to the list, mainly because that's the purpose of the list, a group 
discussion.  The ones that wish to take a discussion to private email should be 
the ones to change the "to" field.  What usually happens when its the other way 
around is, the person being replied to gets 2 copies.  The first one direct, and 
then a second one when the person replying realises that he didn't send the 
mailing list reply to the mailing list. 
 
If the purpose of this list, is to have a group discussion about Hero related 
topics, then the default should be to reply to the list.  If the purpose of the 
list was to announce your desire to have a private discussion about a Hero 
topic, then the other way would be better. 
 
Ron 
 
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X-SMTP: helo send1c.yahoomail.com from johndesmarais@yahoo.com server @send1c.yahoomail.com ip 205.180.60.38 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 13:27:36 -0700 (PDT) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
---"Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA"  wrote: 
> 
> One of Pumas fav was "The Mutant File". 
> Very well done, including explanation of 
> just what mutants are. Could have used 
> mutant package deals (based what they 
> say all mutants/2nd gen. mutants have). 
> But, all in all, very good supplement. A 
> must have if you want run "mutie" game! 
 
Actually, I was a little disppointed in The Mutant File, I wanted much 
more "meat" on Genocide (although it was nice to get an updated 
writeup of the big robots). 
 
Now, VIPER, on the other hand, was what I think an organization book 
should be.  Even if you never actually use VIPER in your games, there 
is so much good "Hi-Tech Villian Organization" stuff it that's ts 
still a good resource. 
 
 
== 
 
     John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
============================================ 
Got a question about the list?  Just ask.  Or, you can go 
look over at www.sysabend.org/champions.  I've been 
slowly posting information about the list there. 
 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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X-SMTP: helo central.worldweb.net from dfair@pop.worldweb.net server @central.worldweb.net ip 204.117.218.31 
Subject: Re: Reply = Reply To All ? 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:28:16 -0400 
x-sender: dfair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <dfair@sdslink.com> 
To: "Hero Games" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Put me down in the "Change it back" Camp as well. 
 
David A. Fair         | 
SDS International     |     Think Different 
dfair@sdslink.com     | 
 
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 15:30:16 -0500 
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Reply-To headers and Junk Threads 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
(makes little actual difference to me, since I use /usr/ucb/Mail, which 
ignores Reply-To:) 
 
 
>One man's trash is another man's treasure.  I'd rather see the default 
>reply-to set to the list, mainly because that's the purpose of the list, 
>a group discussion.  The ones that wish to take a discussion to private 
>email should be the ones to change the "to" field. 
 
 
Uhh, the way it is, people with "smart" mailers have no way of picking up 
the sender automatically, so they have to search, cut, and paste.  The 
other way, reply-to-all (followed by an optional deletion of the sender) 
does the right thing.  I mean, really, haven't you guys learned to do 
that by default now? 
 
 
>If the purpose of this list, is to have a group discussion about 
>Hero related topics, then the default should be to reply to the list. 
>If the purpose of the list was to announce your desire to have a private 
>discussion about a Hero topic, then the other way would be better. 
 
That's bogus; discussions should take place in public until they no 
longer belong, then they should go private.  The "old/standard" way does 
that; the "new" way does not ("It's too much trouble to look up and type 
the sender's email address -- I'll just send it to the list.") 
 
Besides, there's historical trouble with expired/vacationing addresses 
infinite looping with the Reply-To: set the "new" way.  As I see it, the 
*only* reason we should consider keeping the "new" way is because Rat 
has threatened to leave... :) :) :) 
 
  Donald 
 
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:39:44 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
To: "INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>   I'd call this one Above Average.  Also, the title is a little 
misleading; there's more attention to giving a sense of horror in a 
superhero setting than to duplicating the various styles of horror 
monsters.  Certainly there are vampires, demons, mind-sucking aliens, and 
the obligatory amorphous horror, but it's definitely geared toward 
superhero-level games.< 
 
When this book first came out, I was put off by it because I'm not into the 
horror thing (that whole Worlds of Darkness thing just doesn't appeal to 
me).  However, I think it would be nice in a superhero campaign to have 
these sorts of elements from time to time...heck, I've already used the 
Demons Rule adventure anyway.  Someone else said they didn't use this book 
because they aren't into horror, but I see this book being used for an 
adventure here and there--not a campaign focus.  That's what Horror Hero is 
for, which I have no interest in picking up. 
 
>>   This one is harder to call.  I own it, of course, and it's one of my 
favorite Champions sourcebooks.  Others have loathed it, or at least not 
found it especially useful.<< 
 
The Bay City book for C:NM describes a lot of corporations in it's "60 
pages about 30 things" section...how would you compare this to the 
Corporations book? 
 
>>   If this book had nothing other than the updates of the Ultimates and 
Foxbat (with Exo-Skeleton Man and his "legion" of four agents), then it 
would still be worth the price of admission.<< 
 
Sounds like Enemies Assemble should be added to my must-have list. 
 
>>   In short, it's one of the best things Hero Games has ever put out.  
It's 
not perfect (what is?), but it's a model that other authors should 
follow.<< 
 
You're the 2nd person to say such a thing, so I'd better look into 
Atlantis. 
 
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:40:08 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
To: "INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Message text written by INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org 
>  I would strongly urge checking out our web page, and going to our 
products 
list. People keep mentioning "I think this is out of print," when clearly 
it 
isn't. For the record <G>, all of the books you listed are still available. 
So 
are a great many other 4th Ed books. All you have to do is go to the 
source. 
Why ask the "masses?" They may also be mistaken about the status of a 
product.< 
 
When I say a book is out of print, what I'm thinking is that it is no 
longer being produced, and all that is left is what is sitting in the 
warehouse--once that supply is gone, so is the book.  I have checked both 
the GRG page and the Hero page, and I have found several discrepancies as 
to what is or isn't available.  The one example I can think of right now is 
The Olympians.  The GRG page says it is no longer available, but the Hero 
page is still selling it.  I noted at a few other discrepancies like this, 
but can't think of them right now.  Anyway, in my mind "out of print" means 
it might still be for sale but the well is running dry, whereas 
"unavailable" means the well has already run dry.  Using those definitions, 
I think the majority of the books I listed are out of print.  I'd be 
delighted if I was wrong, though. 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:41:31 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< All the post-it notes (that look so cool) weren't supposed to be there. The 
notes are there to cover up text that ties to previous characters, modules, 
etc... But many of the references had to be removed, since [they] were not 
under Hero's control... >> 
 
  That was not my understanding at all. The text under the Post-it notes is in 
some foreign language or gibberish which essentially means nothing of import 
to the game or the book, AFAIK. That's an interesting theory, though. ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Champions Discussion List" <champ-l@omg.org&> 
        "Darien Phoenix Lynx" <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 20:44:42  
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:49:29 -0600 (CST), Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote: 
 
>- The rules allow a character to dive for "cover" in order to take an 
>attack destined for another character. But if it makes sense, and the 
>characters are in the same hex, there's no reason not allow one character 
>to block for another either. The sword, swinging down on the priest's 
>head... (commerical break)... CLANG! The priest looks up to see the 
>fighter's intervening blade, and breathes a sigh of relief. 
 
Good idea, but make it same or adjacent hexes - even a shortsword has a 
long reach when at the end of an outstretched arm - BUT put the 
blocking character at a DCV penalty. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Champions Discussion List" <champ-l@omg.org&> 
        "Darien Phoenix Lynx" <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 20:44:42  
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:49:29 -0600 (CST), Darien Phoenix Lynx wrote: 
 
>- The rules allow a character to dive for "cover" in order to take an 
>attack destined for another character. But if it makes sense, and the 
>characters are in the same hex, there's no reason not allow one character 
>to block for another either. The sword, swinging down on the priest's 
>head... (commerical break)... CLANG! The priest looks up to see the 
>fighter's intervening blade, and breathes a sigh of relief. 
 
Good idea, but make it same or adjacent hexes - even a shortsword has a 
long reach when at the end of an outstretched arm - BUT put the 
blocking character at a DCV penalty. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 15:52:09 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Reply = Reply To All ? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> I do think, though, that the list _should_ make some allowances for those 
> of us with "inferior software." Not everyone on the list can have the 
> optimum mail utility, and it's often not a matter of choice, laziness, or 
> even ignorance. For example, I read my mail via three different set-ups in 
> the course of a typical day: using Eudora on my 8 year old Mac at home, 
> using Eudora on my office PC, and using a telnet connection to the 
> mainframe (an Alpha with a VMS operating system) from the reference desk 
> where I spend much of my work day. I'm satisfied with both versions of 
> Eudora, but the Alpha's mail utility leaves a lot to be desired and there's 
> nothing I can do about it. (Well, I could refrain from responding to the 
> list while I'm at work, but where's the fun in that?) 
 
	Hmm.  What mail software is on the Alpha?  Both Pine and Elm 
support a reply-to and a reply-to-group.  Most other mailing software does 
the same.  The options are already there. 
 
	By making the default to the individual, non-important discussion 
is taken off-list.  This is a *good* thing. 
 
	Also, as pointed out, setting the reply-to to the list _will_ lead 
to problems when someone starts bouncing back at us.  It's happened 
before, it'll happen again. 
 
> I'm sure there are others out there with more difficult circumstances than 
> mine; I think the list should make reasonable accomodations for those who 
> don't have access to the best hardware and software around. 
 
	That's fine.  If they have to, they can make a nickname for the 
list, say "chl", and type that into their address field.  Nothing is 
stopping them from e-mailing the list.  However, it is easier to remember 
a list address to type in than any possible individual address to type in. 
Off the top of my head, I couldn't say any of your addresses. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:56:04 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Reply = Reply To All ? 
To: "INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Message text written by Tim Gilberg 
>       Um, then get a better mail reader.  Inferior software on the part 
>of some is no reason to penalize those that have their software set up to 
>do things the right way.  There _is_ a PC port of pine that will handle 
>mail better than any of the commercial releases.  And it's freeware. 
 
-sigh-  I think you have me confused with someone who was whining.  I 
distinctly remember typing "I'll adapt" when I was pointing out that the 
old way worked better with this particular mail reader (I have other mail 
readers which would handle things properly). 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 17:22:17 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< When I say a book is out of print, what I'm thinking is that it is no 
longer being produced, and all that is left is what is sitting in the 
warehouse >> 
 
  But that can be said about every single product that is ever produced. 
 
<< --once that supply is gone, so is the book. >> 
 
  But it's not out of print until there is no more stock and there is no 
reprint. Just FYI. ;) 
 
<< I have checked both the GRG page and the Hero page, and I have found 
several discrepancies as to what is or isn't available.  The one example I can 
think of right now is The Olympians.  The GRG page says it is no longer 
available, but the Hero 
page is still selling it. >> 
 
  Please bear in mind that the inventory that we carry is not the same 
inventory that Hero Game sis selling. Hero Games has a separate (albeit 
usually smaller) inventory of 4th Ed books that they sell through their Hero 
Plus line. We have a much bigger stock (in most cases) because we are the ones 
who sell them to distributors. When we run out of an item, we're out. But 
sometimes (as you noted) Hero Games still has some copies available. Si I 
guess I'd have to suggest you check both places. Either way, you can't lose. 
If either of us has what ytou're looking for you win. :D 
 
<< ...in my mind "out of print" means it might still be for sale but the well 
is running dry, whereas "unavailable" means the well has already run dry. >> 
 
  In the publishing biz, "out of print" refers to a product that is no longer 
available from the publisher (i.e., sold out with no reprint planned). It may 
very well still be available at other levels of the market (including 
distributors or retailers). 
 
  As an example, our recent "Usagi Yojimbo RPG" has just recently "sold out." 
But you can still buy it in stores, and stores can still order it through 
their distributor. Once that supply is exhausted then the book is "temporarily 
unavailable," or on haiatus if you will. ;) 
 
  But because we are planning a reprint of the Usagi RPG, the book is not 
listed as out of print. If we were to tell distributors that it weas out of 
print, they would delete it from their databases and never, ever order it 
again. We certainly don't want that. ;) 
 
  So I hope you can understand why I jumped up when I saw "out of print." 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 14:30:49 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Sharky Dangerthorn <dangerthorn@yahoo.com> 
Subject: LIST OWNER, PLEASE REPLY (was: Re: Reply-To headers and Junk Threads) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Cc: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
---Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org> wrote: 
>As I see it, the 
> *only* reason we should consider keeping the "new" way is because Rat 
> has threatened to leave... :) :) :) 
 
 
ROFLMAO!!!!! 
 
[recovering composure] 
 
The bottom line here is what the list-owner's point of view is.  An 
official statement would be appropriate at this point, so that we know 
if Rat's leaving or not, and we can plan ahead for the party.  ;-) 
 
So what so you, list owner?  Is the Reply-To thing staying, or no? 
 
Jim 
 
== 
Jim Dickinson -=- Portland/Salem, OR, USA 
a.k.a. Sharky Dangerthorn, Midget, Hey You! 
Nicks on DALnet (IRC): Da_Midge Game_Knight 
 
Castle Game Knight: http://www.aircyber.net/~jd/cgk 
Join the Circle of HEROs: http://www.aircyber.net/~jd/coh 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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From: rcole@ezy.net (Ron Cole) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Reply-To headers and Junk Threads 
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 17:38:13 -0400 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id RAA06730 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>Uhh, the way it is, people with "smart" mailers have no way of picking up 
>the sender automatically, so they have to search, cut, and paste.  The 
>other way, reply-to-all (followed by an optional deletion of the sender) 
>does the right thing.  I mean, really, haven't you guys learned to do 
>that by default now? 
 
That's weird, my mailer must be ultra-smart then, because when I hit reply, it 
defaulted to the "reply-to" field, which makes sense, but in the pull down menu 
next to it, I had the option of replying to: 
 
  "Reply-to: champ-l@sysabend.org" 
  "From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>&q> 
  "Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org" 
  "To: champ-l@sysabend.org" 
 
This would seem to be the ideal setup to me.  When I reply to email from the 
list, it defaults to the list, and if I want to change it, its easy enough.  As 
I said before, this is a group discussion list, the default reply should go back 
to the list. 
 
Ron 
 
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X-SMTP: helo shell.infinex.com from rook@shell.infinex.com server @shell.infinex.com ip 207.201.8.250 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Reply-To headers and Junk Threads 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 14:41:56 -0700 (PDT) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> >Maybe one of the folks on the "Reply-To-Lovers" side of the discussion 
> >would be willing to start "moderating" this mailing list to weed out 
> >the junk threads???  That would be a very acceptible compromise to the 
> >debate, eh? 
>  
> One man's trash is another man's treasure. I'd rather see the default reply-to 
> set to the list, mainly because that's the purpose of the list, a group 
> discussion. The ones that wish to take a discussion to private email should be 
> the ones to change the "to" field. 
 
	Exactly. 
 
> What usually happens when its the other way 
> around is, the person being replied to gets 2 copies.  
> The first one direct, and then a second one when the person replying 
> realises that he didn't send the mailing list reply to the mailing list. 
 
	I've lost at least 4 messages meant for the group from this one. 
I, like others, use multiple email programs. Right now I'm at a terminal with 
a telnet session. I don't have the wonderful stuff many others have. Other time 
I have a choice of elm or pine on a Unix machine. I take elm as pine, at least 
that machine's version; won't let me change my editor to vi.  At home I have 
the luxury of netscape mail. 
  
	In some of these applications, in the old days, if I didn't remember to 
add in the group, I never saw my message. So if I sent it the wrong way and 
the person I sent it to didn't feel like fowarding it back, it was lost. 
 
> If the purpose of this list, is to have a group discussion about Hero related 
> topics, then the default should be to reply to the list. If the purpose of the 
> list was to announce your desire to have a private discussion about a Hero 
> topic, then the other way would be better. 
 
	Precisely. 
 
Rook ?U ?k 1b  'no giga pets were harmed in the production of this message'. 
 __ 
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html	Super Hero Links 
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/			Super Hero Roleplay 
 
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X-SMTP: helo out2.ibm.net from john.desmarais@ibm.net server @out2.ibm.net ip 165.87.194.229 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 21:50:27  
Subject: Re: LIST OWNER, PLEASE REPLY (was: Re: Reply-To headers and Junk Threads) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Thu, 9 Apr 1998 14:30:49 -0700 (PDT), Sharky Dangerthorn wrote: 
 
>The bottom line here is what the list-owner's point of view is.  An 
>official statement would be appropriate at this point, so that we know 
>if Rat's leaving or not, and we can plan ahead for the party.  ;-) 
> 
>So what so you, list owner?  Is the Reply-To thing staying, or no? 
 
To be perfectly honest, I have (gasp!) no opinion at all on it, so I'm quite willing to live  
with whatever folks want.  Unfortunately, its now become a point of great contention  
among several folks on the list. 
 
The History of "the change" 
 
Sometime around a week ago (I think), the listserver farckled.  I had to rebuild the  
config from memory.  When the list was first set up, the REPLY-TO thing was off, but I  
didn't remember this; so (being as I was working from my office instead of home where I  
could actually look at an old message header) I guessed:  when I rebuilt the config I set  
the REPLY-TO thing to on, and prompty forgot about the whole mess.  I  actually didn't  
know I had set it up differently from what it was until someone wrote thanking me for the  
change - at this point, I looked at the header to an old post and saw that the REPLY-TO  
field had previously NOT been populated, but, since no one had complained, I just  
decided to leave it.  Now however, we have THE GREAT REPLY-TO DEBACLE. 
 
 
 
 
      John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysanbend,org> 
================================================= 
Gotta question about the list? Just ask. Or, you can go look  
over at www.sysabend.org/champions.  I've been slowly 
posting information about the list there. 
 
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X-SMTP: helo hermes.ldd.net from redbf@ldd.net server @hermes.ldd.net ip 209.16.220.10 
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 16:51:51 -0500 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Organization: Red Bow Antiques 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Fuzion to Hero 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
I am a huge fan of Bubblegum Crisis and am trying to convert it back to 
4th edition. However, I have ran into what I feel is a snag. In one of 
the Fuzion books it states: 
		Fuzion Personal Armor KD 1-50: KD equals Hero resistant 		PD. 
	 
	This means that something with a KD of 45 has a Resistant PD of 45!! 
That seems outrageous to me. Even if I hit it with a 7d6RKA I won't even 
be denting it. Is this a misprint? 
 
	Also, have you noticed that only the Hero Games website has conversions 
from Fuzion to Hero System? Every one else has Hero System to Fuzion. 
	I am looking for numbers on how to convert Fuzion SDP, KD, Armor, and 
Kills into Hero System. Any help would be greatly appreciated. 
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
	No matter how pararnoid you are you are never paranoid enough. 
				---Susan Modeski, X-files 
 
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 98 22:02:13  
Subject: Re: LIST OWNER, PLEASE REPLY (was: Re: Reply-To headers and Junk Threads) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
p.s. 
 
For those interested, at the moment the voting is just about dead even (with a fairly  
small number of votes cast period, about 24 total), so apparently the list as a whole  
doesn't really have much opinion either. 
 
 
 
 
      John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysanbend,org> 
================================================= 
Gotta question about the list? Just ask. Or, you can go look  
over at www.sysabend.org/champions.  I've been slowly 
posting information about the list there. 
 
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X-SMTP: helo emerald from burns@usmcug.usm.maine.edu server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Subject: Wounded Penalties? 
To: champ-l@omg.org (champions listserv) 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 18:29:00 -0400 (EDT) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Does anyone know whether there are penalties on succeeding 
at physical actions while wounded in the Champs rules?  I've 
been trying to find this in the BBB, without success.  It 
seems to me if your down to 1 BODY, you should have a harder 
time swinging your two-handed sword... 
 
If this is not in the rules, does anyone have any optional 
rules that they use in their own campaign that they would 
be willing to share?  Much thanks... 
 
-Eric 
 
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X-Sender: jrc@pop1.nai.net 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 18:30:43 -0400 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Joe Claffey Jr." <jrc@mail1.nai.net> 
Subject: Re: Reply = Reply To All ? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 I like replying directly to the list. It saves me a fair amount of cut and 
pasting of addresses. And Eudora Lite doesn't have a "Reply-To" command. 
 
  Joe Claffey               | "In the end, everything is a gag." 
  jrc@ct1.nai.net           |               - Charlie Chaplin 
 
 
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 15:32:01 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Fuzion to Hero 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
bobby farris writes: 
> I am a huge fan of Bubblegum Crisis and am trying to convert it back to 
> 4th edition. However, I have ran into what I feel is a snag. In one of 
> the Fuzion books it states: 
>           Fuzion Personal Armor KD 1-50: KD equals Hero resistant           
>           PD.  
>       
>      This means that something with a KD of 45 has a Resistant PD of 45!! 
> That seems outrageous to me. Even if I hit it with a 7d6RKA I won't even 
> be denting it. Is this a misprint? 
 
Nah, it's a side effect of Fuzion being somewhat broken -- in particular, 
Kills-based damage and DC-based damage are incompatible, because one is 
basically linear, the other is basically logarithmic. 
>  
>      Also, have you noticed that only the Hero Games website has 
> conversions from Fuzion to Hero System? Every one else has Hero System to 
> Fuzion.      I am looking for numbers on how to convert Fuzion SDP, KD, 
> Armor, and Kills into Hero System. Any help would be greatly appreciated. 
 
Depends if you're starting from one of the CNM books or one of the anime books. 
The standard conversion rules work pretty well for CNM books, _except_ that 
resistant defenses should be divided by 2 or 3.  For any of the books which use 
Kills-based damage, I suggest the following: 
Dice = 10log10(Kills)+10, or 10log10(dice)-1. 
Armor = 10log10(Kills)+12, or 10log10(KD)-5.  Add a PD bonus equal to Armor/2. 
Body = 10log10(Kills)+12, or 10log10(SDP)-5. 
PD: BBC is heroic, not superheroic.  Halve PD. 
For those who don't memorize common logarithms (;)) this works out to: 
Def/Bod	KD/SDP	Kills	Def/Bod	KD/SDP	Kills 
Def/Bod	KD/SDP	Kills 
1	4	.08	11	40	0.8	21	400 
8 
2	5	.1	12	50	1.0	22	500 
10 
3	6	.125	13	62	1.25	23	620 
12.5 
4	8	.16	14	80	1.6	24	800 
16 
5	10	.2	15	100	2.0	25	1000 
20 
6	13	.25	16	126	2.5	26	1260 
25 
7	16	.32	17	160	3.2	27	1600 
32 
8	20	.4	18	200	4.0	28	2000 
40 
9	25	.5	19	250	5.0	29	2500 
50 
10	32	.63	20	315	6.3	30	3100 
62 
For Dice, subtract 2.  Round up.  You might want to call 1 DEF 2 KD, 2 DEF 4 
KD, instead of these numbers, but you rarely have numbers that small, so it 
isn't a big issue. 
This means the early BBC mecha (around 0.9 kills) would be around 12 def, 12 
body; big attacks are usually 1.1-1.5 Kills, working out to 11 or 12 DC 
(3.5-4d6K). 
 
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X-SMTP: helo access1.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access1.digex.net ip 205.197.245.192 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 18:33:53 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Devil Hunter Yohko 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA wrote: 
 
> Characteristics, defenses, etc. looked a little wimpy (IMHO) 
> but altogether very good! Like to see anime stuff on list! 
 
Well... the orginal version had a 15 STR and 26 DEX, but after watching my 
tapes I realized that she just wasn't *that* strong of fast. 
 
As for defenses, she has a 10 PD, 3 DEF armor and 1/4 Damage Reduction... 
what more do you want? 
 
Beisdes, the monsters she fights don't look to be all that powerful, 
physically (at least in terms of DEX & SPD). 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: COM rules [Really Long!] 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 17:34:56 -0500  
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
		These are the COM rules from my house rules! 
		Puma raise shields to deflect anticipated flames! ^_^; 
 
		Comeliness: 
			When a target sees an attractive (high COM) 
member of the opposite sex (the attacker), the attacker should make a 
comeliness roll. The roll is made using 1D6 for every 5 points in 
comeliness the attacker has. The damage on the roll is totaled and 
applied against the target's EGO. Results are determined from the chart 
shown below: 
 
		COMELINESS EFFECTS 
 
		Damage is greater than:	Effect: 
		Target's EGO	Target finds the attacker attractive. 
Will grant attacker requests that target is inclined to perform anyway. 
Target will hesitate enough so that the attacker may act before the 
target this phase. +1D6 to PRE attacks vs. target. +1 to PRE based 
skills vs. target. 
 
		Target's EGO +10	Target is enamored. Thinks 
attacker is friendly unless shown otherwise. Will tend to believe any 
reasonable thing attacker says. Will grant attacker requests that target 
wouldn't mind doing. Target will hesitate as above, and only performs a 
half phase action during the COM attack's phase. +2D6 to PRE attacks vs. 
target. +2 to PRE based skills vs. target. 
 
		Target's EGO +20	Target is infatuated. Thinks 
attacker is a very nice person. Will believe most things the attacker 
says unless shown proof otherwise. Will not fight attacker unless shown 
it's necessary. Will grant attacker requests that target would normally 
not do (EGO roll to resist at -1 per 5 points of damage over EGO + 20 
level). Target will hesitate 1 full phase and is at half DCV. +3D6 to 
PRE attacks vs. target. +3 to PRE based skills vs. target. 
 
 
		Target's EGO +30	Target is in love with attacker. 
Will believe whatever attacker says without question. Will grant 
attacker requests that go against target's nature (EGO roll to resist, 
at -1 per 5 points of damage over EGO + 30 level).  Target will hesitate 
indefinitely and is at DCV 0. +4D6 to PRE attacks vs. target. +4 to PRE 
based skills vs. target. 
 
		Example: 
				Mrs. Daicon has a COM of 40. She walks 
up to a (male) clerk in the reception area of a hero group's base. The 
clerk has an EGO of 10. Mrs. Daicon rolls 8D6 for her COM and gets a 31. 
That's at the EGO +20 level, so the clerk assumes the babe in the bunny 
motif costume is some sort of hero (i.e. a nice person, even though he's 
never seen or heard of her). Also, he doesn't think twice when he 
answers her question about whether the heroes are in (if she wanted more 
important info, like what Nuclear Man's weakness is, the clerk could 
resist telling her with a successful EGO roll). If Mrs. Daicon wanted to 
use her seduction skill on him (its at 15-), she'd get +3, making it 
18-. If she made a PRE attack on him, she'd get +3D6. Lucky for him (and 
the heroes) Mrs. Daicon is a new hero and not a new villain! 
 
			Even though these effects can be powerful, they 
are not near as effective as mind controls of the same level. Comeliness 
attacks work more like PRE attacks than mind controls, except that EGO 
is used (instead of PRE) to resist them. The maximum comeliness effect 
level is about equivalent to a PRE +30 PRE attack, except it is more 
manipulative than a PRE attack and less disabling (target won't faint, 
run away in panic, etc.). If you want to make people jump off of 
buildings, use mind control, a COM attack won't be powerful enough (in 
most cases). 
			These effects can be altered by psychological 
limitations and situations just as with PRE attacks. For example, if a 
character has a reputation for being devious, its COM effect level 
should be lowered if a target makes the reputation roll (see PRE attack 
section in the rules book for more examples). PRE defense and Special 
Damage Reduction reduce the damage done by a COM attack.  
 
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
	"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"  
					- Joan of Arc's .sig 
     Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
 
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X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net 
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 17:41:41 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Reply-To headers (was Re: Reply = Reply To All ?) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:45 AM 4/9/98 -0700, you wrote: 
>Sorry, I'm with Brian. I greatly prefer this method. 99.99% of my responses 
>go to the list, so this saves me a lot of trouble. 
 
But do all those responses really *need* to go to the list, giving the rest 
of us more to delete? 
 
Damon 
 
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Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 18:08:00 -0500 (EST) 
From: JASON SULLIVAN <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Book Reviews (if you could?) Almanac I & II, E4E, Western HERO 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Could anyone here critique the HERO Almanac I and II, An Eye for an Eye, 
and Western HERO for me?  I'm most interested in variants on Limitations, 
Disadvantages, Advantages, Perks, and any other rules within said tomes. 
 
 
 
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X-SMTP: helo mail.interhop.net from jprins@interhop.net server root@mail.interhop.net ip 204.50.138.29 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 19:20:54 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>One of Pumas fav was "The Mutant File". 
>Very well done, including explanation of 
>just what mutants are. Could have used 
>mutant package deals (based what they 
>say all mutants/2nd gen. mutants have). 
>But, all in all, very good supplement. A 
>must have if you want run "mutie" game! 
 
You gotta be kidding me. This was the dippiest suppliment since European 
Enemies. 240+ point _agents_ working for Genocide? And most of the character 
writeups were similarly over-powered to the extreme. The biker gang was the 
only redeeming bit... 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 16:28:52 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org, champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Book Reviews (if you could?) Almanac I & II, E4E, Western 
  HERO 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 06:08 PM 4/9/1998 -0500, JASON SULLIVAN wrote: 
>Could anyone here critique the HERO Almanac I and II, An Eye for an Eye, 
>and Western HERO for me?  I'm most interested in variants on Limitations, 
>Disadvantages, Advantages, Perks, and any other rules within said tomes. 
 
   Here's what I have to say about them: 
 
   HSA1:  This book is dominated by the Spirit Rules (which also appear 
more-or-less intanct in Horror Hero).  These rules have been derided more 
than they've been praised, though I lean more toward the latter camp 
myself.  If one takes just the definition of a Spirit and no more of the 
rest than is absolutely needed (including most of the rules on containers 
and the Shift Spirit Power), then I think one would have a quite workable 
system.  (Add the Switch Spirit power from Chris Avellone's contribution to 
Heroic Adventures Volume 1 to round it out.)  Superleap with No Skill Roll, 
the new forms of Area Effect, the Restrainable Limitation, and revised Time 
Chart are also great; the rules on Negative Characteristics and Usable On 
Others need work, but are a good start for their respective concerns. 
   There are also some stuff from old Adventurers' Clubs (which would 
probably have been much better of translated from 3rd Edition to 4th), and 
write-ups of the original Captain Australia, his epynomynous 
sister/successor, and their arch-nemisis Entropi.  Rounding out the 
selection are bits on Average Combat Capabilities (which I think should be 
included as part of the 5th Edition rulebook) and a random superhero team 
name generator. 
   In all, a cool book.  If your budget's tight, don't worry about it, but 
it's worth the price overall. 
 
   HSA2:  A considerable improvement over the first effort.  Steve Long has 
some nice expansions of Requires a Skill Roll (some of which found its way 
into TUSV) and Sense Powers, and Steve Peterson did some work on drugs and 
Change Environment.  Write-ups of a typical Army soldier and a couple of 
tanks, along with updates of UNTIL and SAT (the latter is now a private 
organization called World Security Services) make this a must-buy for 
anyone using the Champions Universe.  The rest is more entertaining than 
useful, though entertaining it certainly is. 
 
   An Eye For An Eye:  Though billed as an expansion of Dark Champions, 
this is a sourcebook that can apply to many four-color characters as well. 
A lot of the new rules and law enforcement/military package deals are 
probably more applicable to street-level superheroes (like Batman). 
There's also sections on criminal psychology, advanced forensics, and drugs 
(a more extensive write-up than Steve's in HSA2), along with a sourcebook 
with more weapons and gadgets than you can shake a stick at.  And then 
there's the update of Raven... in short, unless you're playing a strictly 
four-color Champions campaign -- and maybe even if it is -- this can be a 
very handy book to have. 
 
   Western Hero:  If you're primarily after new rules, you might just skip 
this one; its real strength is in the setting.  At that, it focuses on 
"realistic" Western settings and shuns "Wild West" type stories. 
   Other than these two weaknesses (and the first isn't really a weakness, 
since there wasn't really a lot needed in the way of new rules to do 
Westerns), it's an excellent book, though.  I haven't seen a lot of Western 
RPG rules books, but this is the game I'd recommend for anyone wanting to 
do one. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 16:28:52 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org, champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Book Reviews (if you could?) Almanac I & II, E4E, Western 
  HERO 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 06:08 PM 4/9/1998 -0500, JASON SULLIVAN wrote: 
>Could anyone here critique the HERO Almanac I and II, An Eye for an Eye, 
>and Western HERO for me?  I'm most interested in variants on Limitations, 
>Disadvantages, Advantages, Perks, and any other rules within said tomes. 
 
   Here's what I have to say about them: 
 
   HSA1:  This book is dominated by the Spirit Rules (which also appear 
more-or-less intanct in Horror Hero).  These rules have been derided more 
than they've been praised, though I lean more toward the latter camp 
myself.  If one takes just the definition of a Spirit and no more of the 
rest than is absolutely needed (including most of the rules on containers 
and the Shift Spirit Power), then I think one would have a quite workable 
system.  (Add the Switch Spirit power from Chris Avellone's contribution to 
Heroic Adventures Volume 1 to round it out.)  Superleap with No Skill Roll, 
the new forms of Area Effect, the Restrainable Limitation, and revised Time 
Chart are also great; the rules on Negative Characteristics and Usable On 
Others need work, but are a good start for their respective concerns. 
   There are also some stuff from old Adventurers' Clubs (which would 
probably have been much better of translated from 3rd Edition to 4th), and 
write-ups of the original Captain Australia, his epynomynous 
sister/successor, and their arch-nemisis Entropi.  Rounding out the 
selection are bits on Average Combat Capabilities (which I think should be 
included as part of the 5th Edition rulebook) and a random superhero team 
name generator. 
   In all, a cool book.  If your budget's tight, don't worry about it, but 
it's worth the price overall. 
 
   HSA2:  A considerable improvement over the first effort.  Steve Long has 
some nice expansions of Requires a Skill Roll (some of which found its way 
into TUSV) and Sense Powers, and Steve Peterson did some work on drugs and 
Change Environment.  Write-ups of a typical Army soldier and a couple of 
tanks, along with updates of UNTIL and SAT (the latter is now a private 
organization called World Security Services) make this a must-buy for 
anyone using the Champions Universe.  The rest is more entertaining than 
useful, though entertaining it certainly is. 
 
   An Eye For An Eye:  Though billed as an expansion of Dark Champions, 
this is a sourcebook that can apply to many four-color characters as well. 
A lot of the new rules and law enforcement/military package deals are 
probably more applicable to street-level superheroes (like Batman). 
There's also sections on criminal psychology, advanced forensics, and drugs 
(a more extensive write-up than Steve's in HSA2), along with a sourcebook 
with more weapons and gadgets than you can shake a stick at.  And then 
there's the update of Raven... in short, unless you're playing a strictly 
four-color Champions campaign -- and maybe even if it is -- this can be a 
very handy book to have. 
 
   Western Hero:  If you're primarily after new rules, you might just skip 
this one; its real strength is in the setting.  At that, it focuses on 
"realistic" Western settings and shuns "Wild West" type stories. 
   Other than these two weaknesses (and the first isn't really a weakness, 
since there wasn't really a lot needed in the way of new rules to do 
Westerns), it's an excellent book, though.  I haven't seen a lot of Western 
RPG rules books, but this is the game I'd recommend for anyone wanting to 
do one. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 16:32:28 -0700 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: COM rules [Really Long!] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 05:34 PM 4/9/1998 -0500, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA wrote: 
>  These are the COM rules from my house rules! 
>  Puma raise shields to deflect anticipated flames! ^_^; 
 
   No flames from this corner.  I like it.  It's finally something concrete 
that can be done with COM. 
   I'd only make two substantial alterations.  The first is that the 
attacker has to declare a COM Attack to do it, unless the target has some 
Psychological Limitation or other reason for an automatic effect.  Also, 
bonus dice should be available for special circumstances, though because 
COM is so much cheaper than PRE they should be harder to come by. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 19:32:46 -0400 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> 
Subject: Re: Wounded Penalties? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 06:29 PM 4/9/98 -0400, Eric Burns wrote: 
>Does anyone know whether there are penalties on succeeding 
>at physical actions while wounded in the Champs rules?  I've 
>been trying to find this in the BBB, without success.  It 
>seems to me if your down to 1 BODY, you should have a harder 
>time swinging your two-handed sword... 
> 
 
Check the optional rules on Impairment.  In general, if the 
character got to 1 BODY via one nasty hit, there's something 
on his body that no longer functions properly.  If he was 
whittled down with a series of 1 BODY nicks and scratches,  
he's probably alright, but will be seriously sore in the  
morning. 
======================  ================================================= 
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed  
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is  
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead 
======================  ================================================= 
 
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Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 19:34:20 -0400 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> 
Subject: Re: Reply = Reply To All ? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Personally, I don't give a damn.  After I hit the Reply 
button, I actually CHECK to see where my e-mail is going. 
 
 
======================  ================================================= 
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed  
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is  
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead 
======================  ================================================= 
 
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Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 16:36:48 -0700 
To: champ-l@omg.org (champions listserv) 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Wounded Penalties? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 06:29 PM 4/9/1998 -0400, Eric Burns wrote: 
>Does anyone know whether there are penalties on succeeding 
>at physical actions while wounded in the Champs rules?  I've 
>been trying to find this in the BBB, without success.  It 
>seems to me if your down to 1 BODY, you should have a harder 
>time swinging your two-handed sword... 
> 
>If this is not in the rules, does anyone have any optional 
>rules that they use in their own campaign that they would 
>be willing to share?  Much thanks... 
 
   About the only thing I can find is the Impairing/Disabling option that 
goes with the Hit Location Chart (HSR page 162-164). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:15:18 +1000 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
---------- 
> From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
> Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
> Date: Friday, April 10, 1998 3:17 AM 
>  
> At 12:41 AM 4/10/98 +1000, happyelf wrote: 
> > 
> >> > 
> >> > I never heard anything about Battletech being related (never read 
much 
> >> > of the game), but I do remember something about Earthdawn and 
> >> > Shadowrun being related somehow (heck, just look at the critters in 
> >> > each, lots of duplicates). 
> >>  
> >> 	I don't know if Battletech was said or not, but the world would 
> >> fit just fine with the other two.  Magic would just have receeded 
again. 
> >>  
> >>  
> > 
> >*drool* anyone for awakened mechs? TELL me that isn't a cool idea. .  
>  
> (Sing)"We wish to welcome you to Munchkin Land!"(/Sing) 
>  
> It's 20 meters tall, covered with ultrahardium armor, carriers enough 
> missiles to destroy a city...and it's sentient and casts spells. How many 
> smegging points is THAT worth? 
>  
> (Hmmm...excpet for the spells, that would pretty much describe a 
> Transformer, so maybe it isn't so Munchkin...) 
 
well if i pay heaps of points for it, it isn't munchkinny at all, yes? 
 
 
 
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 19:22:21 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Reply-To headers and Junk Threads 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> This would seem to be the ideal setup to me.  When I reply to email from the 
> list, it defaults to the list, and if I want to change it, its easy enough.  As 
> I said before, this is a group discussion list, the default reply should go back 
> to the list. 
 
	Actually, no.  A group discussion list places itself as merely a 
waystation for the mail.  It still should be from the various individuals. 
You may think you have some common sense on your side, but it's a false 
common sense disproven by years of internet mailing lists. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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From: "Warren E Henderson III" <warren@newenglandpc.net> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 98 00:27:47  
Subject: Re: Reply-To headers (was Re: Reply = Reply To All ?) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 24 
 
Ummm, I missed the first part of this debate.  Is the problem hitting 
reply, on some software packages, now causes the message to go to the 
list, rather than the author of the message? 
 
Warren 
 
 
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Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 19:35:32 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Supplement request (Cardboard Miniatures) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Eric Chauvin wrote: 
 
> I've been making/using cardboard character miniatures for years. I would be 
> happy to post & create some for those interested. Eventually I intend on 
> having a web site where if requested people will regularly find a update of 
> these "cardboard miniatures"  I am unaware as to weather or not I can send 
> files to the Hero E-mail list. 
> If you are interested You can E-mail me or post a response on the list. If 
> I receive enough responses I will make this a pet project of mine. 
 
 
Eric, 
 
I would be interested in seeing something like this! 
 
Todd 
 
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Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 17:37:58 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: GREAT List of 4-color conventions... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
Hash: SHA1 
 
This grew out of a thread on the GURPS list. A wonderful collection  
of the unspoken assumption and cliches of 4 color. A good way to add  
that '4 color' feeling to your game, or, if you're aiming for a more  
realistic game, what NOT to do. 
 
I did not write or compile this, though I did contribute a few items. 
 
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/5751/4color.html 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQA/AwUBNS1p5jKf8mIpTvjWEQJ2uwCg1RCXfwCfLY7zO0EFNenYB8rUzcwAniRE 
tmifjkEJk8MPgnvnwGvmDm3n 
=L5U0 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
 
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Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 17:42:18 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 07:20 PM 4/9/1998 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
>>One of Pumas fav was "The Mutant File". 
>>Very well done, including explanation of 
>>just what mutants are. Could have used 
>>mutant package deals (based what they 
>>say all mutants/2nd gen. mutants have). 
>>But, all in all, very good supplement. A 
>>must have if you want run "mutie" game! 
> 
>You gotta be kidding me. This was the dippiest suppliment since European 
>Enemies. 240+ point _agents_ working for Genocide? And most of the character 
>writeups were similarly over-powered to the extreme. The biker gang was the 
>only redeeming bit... 
 
   There's more to a character's power than just points.  Let's compare the 
actual capabilities of a Genocide Pawn vs a VIPER agent: 
 
      Pawn     VIPER 
DEX     15        15 
SPD      3         3 
DC (R)   9         9 
DC (H)   7.5       7* 
DC (S)  16        18 
nrDEF   15         9 
rDEF     5         6 
 
   For DCs, I evaluated the Ranged damage for a standard weapon, 
Hand-to-hand damage, and damage from Special weapons.  *Only VIPER Unarmed 
Combat Specialists are really adept at hand-to-hand combat. 
   Now, certainly one Genocide Pawn is more powerful than one VIPER Agent, 
but not like you'd expect for 268 points vs 100 points.  Beginning-level 
Seeker could probably pound a Pawn into the ground without working up too 
much of a sweat.  The true guage of power isn't just raw points, but where 
those points are spent. 
   Pawns carry multiple weapons, paying full cost for each (rather than 
taking the option, introduced somewhat later, of putting multiple weapons 
into a single Multipower).  They also have points spent in stuff like 
Martial Arts, and even a motion detector.  These things suck up points, 
making a character more versatile but less powerful overall for a 
deceptively high cost. 
   As for the other characters, they're only overpowered if you use them en 
masse for a team-vs-team fight.  The IMAGE characters should be used only 
one or two at a time, with low-powered backup, at least until you're ready 
to get rid of the organization; only then should you have the PCs face the 
leadership as a group.  Catastrophe is meant to be foiled, not captured. 
And don't even think about sending PCs against Genocide's higher-ups unless 
they're powerful *and* experienced. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 20:49:00 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Wounded Penalties? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< Does anyone know whether there are penalties on succeeding at physical 
actions while wounded in the Champs rules? >> 
 
  Pp. 162-1677 is the only relevant section I could find. :/ 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: "Warren E Henderson III" <warren@newenglandpc.net> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 98 00:51:38  
Subject: Re: Reply-To headers and Junk Threads 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 25 
 
On Thu, 9 Apr 1998 19:22:21 -0500 (CDT), Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
> Actually, no.  A group discussion list places itself as merely a 
>waystation for the mail.  It still should be from the various individuals. 
>You may think you have some common sense on your side, but it's a false 
>common sense disproven by years of internet mailing lists. 
 
Huh?  You lost me.  A group discussion list should be a place for you 
to post mail to an individual that you wouldn't mind others reading is 
how your statement above comes across to me.  I am pretty sure I am 
just 
being dense but what do you mean? 
 
Warren 
 
 
 
 
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Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 19:53:45 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Reply-To headers (was Re: Reply = Reply To All ?) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
> 
> Personally, this is the one thing that will make me leave the list. 
 
 
well, that's reason enough for me to vote that we leave it the way it 
is.   
 
If ratboy wants to take his toys and go home, I guess I'll just have to 
live without his rude, condescending and inflamatory contributions to 
the list. 
 
insert a smiley if it makes you feel better. 
 
 
Todd 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 21:11:46 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< 240+ point _agents_ working for Genocide? >> 
 
  Sheer point toals should not be the determining factor on whether a 
character is reasonable or not. For "Law & Order," I have been developing some 
police packages, and let me tell you... a "regular street cop" has close to 
200 points... and that's with Characteristic Stat Maxima! But a 200 point 
superhero could dust them in no time flat (most of the points are in skills). 
So don't wrinkle your nose at the points just because there are a lot of them. 
Consider how they are spent. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 18:20:16 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 07:20 PM 4/9/98 -0400, you wrote: 
>>One of Pumas fav was "The Mutant File". 
>>Very well done, including explanation of 
>>just what mutants are. Could have used 
>>mutant package deals (based what they 
>>say all mutants/2nd gen. mutants have). 
>>But, all in all, very good supplement. A 
>>must have if you want run "mutie" game! 
> 
>You gotta be kidding me. This was the dippiest suppliment since European 
>Enemies. 240+ point _agents_ working for Genocide? And most of the character 
>writeups were similarly over-powered to the extreme. The biker gang was the 
>only redeeming bit... 
 
I concur, I thought The Mutant File ranked right up there with oh, High Tech 
Enemies for most useless supplement.  My biggest annoyance was the mutant 
working in Genocide... like a virulently anti mutant organization wouldnt 
EVER notice that (nothing is detect proof). 
 
However, the icing on the cake is the huge self aware robots.  Not only are 
they silly and self defeating (try to hide a 3 story robot flying off 
somewhere), it doesn't fit the profile of the Genocide people.  If humanity 
is the zenith of creation, why use machines that are intelligent?   
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 21:45:04 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Christopher Taylor wrote: 
 
> I concur, I thought The Mutant File ranked right up there with oh, High Tech 
> Enemies for most useless supplement.  My biggest annoyance was the mutant 
> working in Genocide... like a virulently anti mutant organization wouldnt 
> EVER notice that (nothing is detect proof). 
 
I find it very interesting that Sean Fannon wrote both of these books.  I 
beleive that part of the problem stems from the fact that Sean is noted 
for running an 'unlmited' points game, where the characters were as 
expensive as the player wanted.  Sean appreantly thinks *everyone* runs 
games at this power level and wrote his books accordingly. 
  
 
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* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 21:47:50 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
> << 240+ point _agents_ working for Genocide? >> 
>  
>   Sheer point toals should not be the determining factor on whether a 
> character is reasonable or not. For "Law & Order," I have been developing some 
> police packages, and let me tell you... a "regular street cop" has close to 
> 200 points... and that's with Characteristic Stat Maxima! But a 200 point 
> superhero could dust them in no time flat (most of the points are in skills). 
> So don't wrinkle your nose at the points just because there are a lot of them. 
> Consider how they are spent. 
 
I agree.  When developing characters for a local fedual Japan game, it was 
discovered that a 'proper' samurai (meaning one that had all the skills 
and training one would expect for a historical samurai) would probably top 
200 points real fast.  75% of that would be skills, and the character 
would probably fold like a house of cards to your average 250 point super. 
 
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* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 21:06:54 -0500 
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Supplement request (Cardboard Miniatures) 
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On 4/9/98, at 7:52 PM, Todd Hanson  wrote:  
 
>Eric Chauvin wrote: 
> 
>> I've been making/using cardboard character miniatures for years. I would be 
>> happy to post & create some for those interested. Eventually I intend on 
>> having a web site where if requested people will regularly find a update of 
>> these "cardboard miniatures"  I am unaware as to weather or not I can send 
>> files to the Hero E-mail list. 
>> If you are interested You can E-mail me or post a response on the list. If 
>> I receive enough responses I will make this a pet project of mine. 
> 
> 
>Eric, 
> 
>I would be interested in seeing something like this! 
 
Me, too! 
 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 21:29:17 -0500 
Subject: Re: COM rules [Really Long!] 
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From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David W Toomey) 
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On Thu, 9 Apr 1998 17:34:56 -0500  "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" 
<andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> writes: 
>		These are the COM rules from my house rules! 
>		Puma raise shields to deflect anticipated flames! ^_^; 
> 
>		Comeliness: 
>			When a target sees an attractive (high COM) 
>member of the opposite sex (the attacker), the attacker should make a 
>comeliness roll. The roll is made using 1D6 for every 5 points in 
>comeliness the attacker has. The damage on the roll is totaled and 
>applied against the target's EGO. Results are determined from the  
>chart 
>shown below: 
 
<<--snipped-->> 
 
 
No Flames, just wondering why anybody would buy PRE to more than 
a medium value with a 2-for-1 deal with COM. 
 
I normally add 1d6  for every 5 pts of COM above 10 to appropriate PRE 
attacks. 
 
 
David W Toomey 
dwtoomey@juno.com 
 
_____________________________________________________________________ 
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. 
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com 
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] 
 
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:32:36 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Cc: BruceHH@aol.com 
Subject: Re:  Re: Hero Universe 
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In a message dated 4/9/98 10:22:48 AM, you wrote: 
 
> Note: If you are interested in writing for Hero 
>          Plus, you need to check this out!  
 
Bruce wrote that, not me. His intent was to alert authors to the Hero 
Universe, not to restrict them to writing only for the Hero Universe. Since 
the line is subject to misinterpretation, I'll make sure he changes it so that 
it's clearer. 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games 
 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 21:33:33 -0500 
Subject: Re: Wounded Penalties? 
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From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David W Toomey) 
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On Thu, 9 Apr 1998 18:29:00 -0400 (EDT) Eric Burns 
<burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> writes: 
>Does anyone know whether there are penalties on succeeding 
>at physical actions while wounded in the Champs rules?  I've 
>been trying to find this in the BBB, without success.  It 
>seems to me if your down to 1 BODY, you should have a harder 
>time swinging your two-handed sword... 
> 
>If this is not in the rules, does anyone have any optional 
>rules that they use in their own campaign that they would 
>be willing to share?  Much thanks... 
 
 
It wouldn't be difficult to swipe from GURPS and have a -1 on all skills 
(and OCV) for the wounded character's next phase.  Long term, a -1 to 
physical skills at 1/2 Body, and -2 at 1 or less could be used, but it 
might 
not be good to go beyond that unless you're running a 'realistic' 
campaign. 
Many heroes in fiction seem to continue quite well even when wounded. 
 
 
David W Toomey 
dwtoomey@juno.com 
 
_____________________________________________________________________ 
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. 
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:37:03 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
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<< I agree.  When developing characters for a local fedual Japan game, it was 
discovered that a 'proper' samurai (meaning one that had all the skills 
and training one would expect for a historical samurai) would probably top 
200 points real fast.>> 
 
  I came up with a total even higher than that. And let's not talk about given 
them a separate Martial Arts Style package for each appropriate weapon (as per 
UMA)! <LOL> 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:42:40 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
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<< Wow, I take it this is "not your father's Package Deal" >> 
 
  Actually I wasn't clear (I had two thoughts running in my head at the same 
time). The extra Packages themselves (the SWAT package, the EOD package, the 
Jailer package, etc.) are like 5-15 Pts each. It's the very Basic Package (a 
rookie cop freash out of the academy) that costs a whopping 30 Pts (not 
counting stats and background skills), IIRC, and the total characters that 
cost so much. 
 
<< I'm afraid if you already told me, I've forgotten:  when is "Law & Order" 
expected? >> 
 
  I'm hoping to finish the writing on it by the end of the summer. But we have 
a number of other projects ahead of it right now that are keeping me tres 
busy. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:44:13 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  Re: More book reviews, please 
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In a message dated 4/9/98 12:52:37 PM, you wrote: 
 
>When I say a book is out of print, what I'm thinking is that it is no 
>longer being produced, and all that is left is what is sitting in the 
>warehouse--once that supply is gone, so is the book.  I have checked both 
>the GRG page and the Hero page, and I have found several discrepancies as 
>to what is or isn't available.  The one example I can think of right now is 
>The Olympians.  The GRG page says it is no longer available, but the Hero 
>page is still selling it.  I noted at a few other discrepancies like this, 
>but can't think of them right now.  Anyway, in my mind "out of print" means 
>it might still be for sale but the well is running dry, whereas 
>"unavailable" means the well has already run dry.  Using those definitions, 
>I think the majority of the books I listed are out of print.  I'd be 
>delighted if I was wrong, though. 
 
The discrepancies between what GRG has and what Hero Games has are due to the 
fact the GRG is selling Hero Games books into distribution, while Hero Games 
is not. We have a few copies of most books that we only sell direct to 
customers. Our stock of Hero books would be wiped out with a distributor 
order; we're hanging on to them because it's easier for fans to find them from 
us. 
 
Most, if not all, of the Hero Games products put out by ICE will not be 
reprinted, at least not in their current form. If we bring them back it'll be 
in new editions. This is largely true of game products across the industry, 
BTW. Only core books get reprinted; other supplements are not reprinted 
because retailers and distributors are not buying "old" products (that is, 
anything older than three months that's not considered a "core" product). A 
regrettable situation, but it's a fact of life that all RPG publishers are 
having to deal with these days. 
 
Our solution is to use the electronic book format to bring old books back into 
print, in cases where it would not be cost-effective to print it again. 
Electronic books are far less expensive for us to bring out, and we can keep 
them in print forever because they don't have minimum quantities like paper 
books do. 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games 
 
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:48:28 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  Re: Hero Universe 
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In a message dated 4/9/98 1:33:45 PM, you wrote: 
 
>  (BTW Steve & Steve, when C:TNM first came out, most folks on the list 
>regarded the world described there as a separate world from the one we're 
>more familiar with, just as that other Steve guy did in his conversation 
>between the two Seekers.  With Shelley's PRIMUS update coming up and my own 
>VOICE update now under way, it looks to me like you're going to be 
>continuing support of the old Champions Universe as well as the new Hero 
>Universe; am I right?) 
 
Yes, that's correct. The advantage for us with the New Millennium setting is 
that since we own all of the characters in it, authors can freely reference 
and develop those characters in subsequent New Millennium products. While we 
own many of the characters in the Champions Universe, we don't own all of 
them, so it gets much trickier for authors trying to add to that setting. 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games 
 
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:52:25 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  Re: More book reviews, please 
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On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Hero Games wrote: 
 
> Our solution is to use the electronic book format to bring old books back into 
> print, in cases where it would not be cost-effective to print it again. 
> Electronic books are far less expensive for us to bring out, and we can keep 
> them in print forever because they don't have minimum quantities like paper 
> books do. 
 
Tell me Steve, have you ever considered using HTML instead of Acrobat 
to create these electronic books?  Personally, I find that Acrobat is very 
slow and unwieldy on my computer. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:57:13 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
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On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
> << I agree.  When developing characters for a local fedual Japan game, it was 
> discovered that a 'proper' samurai (meaning one that had all the skills 
> and training one would expect for a historical samurai) would probably top 
> 200 points real fast.>> 
>  
>   I came up with a total even higher than that. And let's not talk about given 
> them a separate Martial Arts Style package for each appropriate weapon (as per 
> UMA)! <LOL> 
 
Let's see... kenjutsu, yarijutsu, kyujutsu, jujutsu... possibly 
naginatajustsu... oh, that could be 50 points right there! 
 
A 14th century knight given all the 'proper' skills and traning will be in 
the same boat.  Although he won't have all the martial arts packages 
(I will argue he should have some sort of package though), there are 
stilkl a number of things he would kow and be trained in that could push 
his point total way about most Fantasy Hero starting character levels. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:08:44 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  Re:  Re: More book reviews, please 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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In a message dated 4/9/98 6:56:34 PM, you wrote: 
 
>Tell me Steve, have you ever considered using HTML instead of Acrobat 
>to create these electronic books?  Personally, I find that Acrobat is very 
>slow and unwieldy on my computer. 
 
Sorry to hear that; I do know there are some folks who have problems running 
Acrobat, particularly on older machines. We intend to stick with Acrobat, 
though, because it has many more features than HTML. For one thing, we can get 
all the text, graphics and fonts easily into Acrobat files, and from our 
existing PageMaker files, with very little work. 
 
-- Steve Peterson  
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:14:06 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
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<< Although he won't have all the martial arts packages..., there are still a 
number of things he would kow and be trained in that could push his point 
total way about most Fantasy Hero starting character levels.>> 
 
  Like what? How to employ sheep's bladders to prevent earthquakes? ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:15:55 -0400 (EDT) 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Genocide and Mutants 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>At 07:20 PM 4/9/98 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
>> You gotta be kidding me. This was the dippiest suppliment since European 
 
>"Dippy" wouldn't be the word I chose for it. "Misdirected", maybe. I tend to 
>class _The MUTANT File_ in the "Good Ideas Run Amuck" category. 
 
Heh. Good idea: Genocide. Amok idea: Genocide w/ 240+ point agents. :-) 
 
> There's very 
>little in the book I'm not using in my campaigns _somehow_ ... but there's 
>also very little in the book that got used "as is", or even close to "as 
>is". 
 
That's just it; you have to do so much modifying in most campaigns that you 
might as well write up your own version of Genocide. This does not, IMHO, 
constitute a 'good suppliment'. To compare, I would use most of VIPER as-is. 
And VIPER is supposed to be the technological bad-ass, as far as 
organizations go. But Genocide totes around way better stuff! 
 
>I think there was even more of a need for /conceptual/ restraint 
>than point restraint. For example: 
> 
>* I toned down the Genocide agents a little, basically by rendering the 
>various ranks into package deals and equipment attached to Competent 
>Normals, and by revising the equipment to get rid of its "shopping list" 
>feeping creaturism. I think it's more interesting to have an anti-mutant 
>organization that ISN'T teeming with power-nullifying technology -- it's too 
>EASY to go that route. 
 
Indeed. What really got me, though is that a group that is fighting against 
'freaks' would so easily subject themselves to cybernetic augmentation that 
was VERY obvious and freakish (i.e. the Knights, the Black Queen - at least 
the Purifier has less than obvious cybernetic reconstruction. But you think 
any organization as bigoted as Genocide would be against all forms of 
invasive augmentation (power suits would be okay, ditto robots). 
 
And yeah, it's too easy for Genocide if they have _reliable_ mutant 
neutralization and detection technology. 
 
>* In my own campaign, Rex Albus's branch covers the entire Americas, and 
>Purifier is /his/ Bishop. Regina Atra has been retconned into a Japanese 
>woman in charge of the Asian branch (it was really silly to create a 
>bureacratic setup that ignores China, Russia, AND India, the three most 
>populous -- and thus probably most mutant-ous -- nations in the world!). 
 
Good idea! 
 
>* IMAGE makes for a nice "bad guy mutants" group, but they don't have the 
>"army of thousands" described in their writeup. Like I said, conceptual 
>restraint. 
 
Right. One of the genre bits of most superheroic universes is that mutants 
(heck, any supers!) generally don't form huge organizations with political 
agendas. 
 
>* Say "No" to "advanced generation mutants" --  
 
I do. It was just a goofy excuse to hand out Power Defense and Life Supports 
IMHO. 
 
How I'd like to run mutants: 
 
I don't think that mutants would be the 'start' of a superior human being. 
Rather, they're the genetic 'hiccups' produced by a species on the verge of 
an evolutionary 'step up'. The randomness of the manifestation of powers and 
the gross physical distortions are indicative of this. The 'actual' 
evolutionary upgraded humans would simply have higher baseline 
characteristics - say, 13s across the board, a slightly better immune 
system, etc., but would be essentially impossible to differentiate from a 
'normal' human being (they're just a whole lot better at everything). 
Natural selective processes would have most 'improved' humans mating with 
other improved humans, eventually (maybe) outstripping the 'baseline' 
humanity thanks to simply better health, longevity and intelligence/talents. 
And they wouldn't even realize that they were doing it...:-). 
 
Anyway, once the 'baseline' humanity has faded from the Earth (peacefully, 
probably), superpowered mutation would come to an end. In fact, mutants 
might have been the product of interbreeding between the 'baseline' and 
'improved' humans*. Hmm... 
 
Anyway, mutantkind would not be the next race of humanity. Mutants breeding 
with mutants would produce a number of possibilities: Baseline humans, 
improved humans, or different mutants with different powers. 
 
*Improved humans would result from a small percentage of the births between 
baseline humans - the right genes mix at the right time. With Earth's 
population being what it is, the species has finally enough improved humans 
to achieve a sort of 'critical mass' that allows the improved humans to make 
a grab for the evolutionary brass ring. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:15:59 -0400 (EDT) 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
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>>You gotta be kidding me. This was the dippiest suppliment since European 
>>Enemies. 240+ point _agents_ working for Genocide? And most of the character 
>>writeups were similarly over-powered to the extreme. The biker gang was the 
>>only redeeming bit... 
> 
>   There's more to a character's power than just points.  Let's compare the 
>actual capabilities of a Genocide Pawn vs a VIPER agent: 
 
>   Now, certainly one Genocide Pawn is more powerful than one VIPER Agent, 
>but not like you'd expect for 268 points vs 100 points.  Beginning-level 
>Seeker could probably pound a Pawn into the ground without working up too 
>much of a sweat.  The true guage of power isn't just raw points, but where 
>those points are spent. 
>   Pawns carry multiple weapons, paying full cost for each (rather than 
>taking the option, introduced somewhat later, of putting multiple weapons 
>into a single Multipower).  They also have points spent in stuff like 
>Martial Arts, and even a motion detector.  These things suck up points, 
>making a character more versatile but less powerful overall for a 
>deceptively high cost. 
 
Yes, I know, but Genocide agents are built to thwart just about every 
super-option for taking out agents without doing serious harm. They have gas 
masks to foil NNDs; they have Flash Defense to foil Flashes; they have Sonar 
to foil Darkness. 
 
But what's worse, they have MORE skill levels than you'd expect from Navy 
SEALs. These are supposed to be guys described as coming from all walks of 
life, but they're combat monsters, as far as normals go (14 DEX, 4 combat 
levels, 5 martial arts maneuvers, familiar with all firearms). It should 
take _years_ of _daily_ training to get this good. Genocide agents shouldn't 
have 'normal' lives period. 
 
Also, most of them carry equipment that would make the average PC gadgeteer 
drool with envy; 4D6 Area Effect STR Drain, 3D6 Autofire x10 RKA, 8D6 Area 
Effect Suppress vs All Psionic Powers, 40 STR Area Effect Telekinesis, 8D6 
Suppress vs. Energy-Based Powers* - Genocide agents are generally holding 
weapons in the 80-160 active point range! Yes, Seeker could clobber one 
right quick; but a single hit from the right Genocide weapons will 
completely neutralize most heroes. Most VIPER weapons cap out at 90 active 
points, and those tend to act on conventional defenses (which heroes 
generally have lots of). And the average agent has a 40-60 AP weapon. 
They're not _all_ heaving around 100+ AP weapons (and a 45 AP sidearm plus a 
70+ AP grenade weapon). 
 
*A crock of an SFX if I ever saw one! 
 
Also, I object to the 'cookie-cutter' higher-up pawns as well. The Knights 
are more than a match for any one super, and Rooks put most power armor 
supers to shame. 
 
Oh, and you'll note that the Rooks and Knights don't hate mutants, at least 
not on a Psychological Limitation level ^_^. 
 
>And don't even think about sending PCs against Genocide's higher-ups unless 
>they're powerful *and* experienced. 
 
The funny thing is that a handful of Genocide agents could wipe out the 
leadership. There's some quality villian planning if I ever saw it :-). 
 
Oh, on a side note; how many Silver Avengers have gone bad to date? 
Vengeance (genocide White King's Bishop), Red Shield (Red Doom Member), and 
Armstrong (VIPER Force-2's leader). Isn't it getting a bit clich? :-) 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:16:03 -0400 (EDT) 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Minutemen VII 
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>However, the icing on the cake is the huge self aware robots.  Not only are 
>they silly and self defeating (try to hide a 3 story robot flying off 
>somewhere), it doesn't fit the profile of the Genocide people.  If humanity 
>is the zenith of creation, why use machines that are intelligent?   
 
Gah! Don't even mention the Minutemen VII. Mutant hunting robots should be 
able to go toe-to-toe with the average super, one-on-one, but a robot that 
can take an entire team and easily win...bleah! I want to use Minutemen as 
Genocide's genre bit; not as their 'final assault' weapon. I'd rather 
Genocide not have many agents at all; relying primarily on Minutemen for 
thier dirty work. It makes Genocide distinctive from VIPER (power levels aside). 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:16:07 -0400 (EDT) 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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><< 240+ point _agents_ working for Genocide? >> 
> 
>  Sheer point toals should not be the determining factor on whether a 
>character is reasonable or not. For "Law & Order," I have been developing some 
>police packages, and let me tell you... a "regular street cop" has close to 
>200 points... and that's with Characteristic Stat Maxima! But a 200 point 
>superhero could dust them in no time flat (most of the points are in skills). 
>So don't wrinkle your nose at the points just because there are a lot of them. 
>Consider how they are spent. 
 
You gotta be kidding me. This is a case of over-building if the Street Cop 
has 200 points. Unless, UNLESS, you're playing Police HERO. 
 
How the hell did Joe Cop spend 200 points anyways? You say most of those 
points are in skills, but once you've bought PS: Police Officer and KS: 
Police Procedures and mayyyybe KS: Law, a couple weapon FAMs and Combat 
Driving, what have you got left to buy? I can't (believably) see anyone 
spending more than 20 points for the average cop's skills unless they were 
totally...ahhh...I think I'll withhold that comment ^_^. Joe Cop is a 
skilled normal; the higher-ups (detectives, etc.) shouldn't break out beyond 
100 points IMHO. 
 
Look at it this way; if Joe Cop is built on 200 points, if my character 
wants to play a Cop who gained super powers, he'll have...50 points worth of 
super-powers and attributes. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:35:02 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org, calicajun@prtcl.com 
Subject: Re: Supplement request (Cardboard Miniatures) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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In a message dated 98-04-08 03:52:03 EDT, you write: 
 
> I've been making/using cardboard character miniatures for years. I would be 
>  happy to post & create some for those interested. Eventually I intend on 
>  having a web site where if requested people will regularly find a update of 
>  these "cardboard miniatures"  I am unaware as to weather or not I can send 
>  files to the Hero E-mail list. 
>  If you are interested You can E-mail me or post a response on the list. If 
>  I receive enough responses I will make this a pet project of mine. 
>  ____________________________ 
>  GET-EM!!! THAT'S THE PLAN?!? 
>  --------------------------------------------- 
>  Eric Chauvin 
>  calicajun@prtcl.com 
 
I'd love this!  Make 'em, and I'll use 'em! 
 
'Lynx 
 
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:48:54 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
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On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
> << Although he won't have all the martial arts packages..., there are still a 
> number of things he would kow and be trained in that could push his point 
> total way about most Fantasy Hero starting character levels.>> 
>  
>   Like what? How to employ sheep's bladders to prevent earthquakes? ;) 
 
lesse: 
 
WF: Sword, Shield, Lance, Bow (possibly quarterstaff) 
Riding 
High Society 
Tactics 
KS: Dance 
KS: Heraldry 
KS: Chess 
PS: Knight 
KS: Hawking 
Animal Handler (horse and/or hawk) 
KS: Poetry 
Oratory 
Perk: Knight 
CSLs with weapons, martial arts and to counteract DCV minus from wearing 
armor. 
Martial Arts: sword and shield, mounted combat, great sword, pole arm 
Wealth - it was expensive to be a knight, which is why by the 15th C, many 
squires stayed squires 
 
possible skills include Paramedic, Bureacratics (for dealing with middle 
ages law - knights were the law enforcement of the time), and assorted 
skills with running a manor and/or castle 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:49:40 -0400 (EDT) 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
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>> << 240+ point _agents_ working for Genocide? >> 
>>  
>>   Sheer point toals should not be the determining factor on whether a 
>> character is reasonable or not.  
 
<snip> 
 
>> Consider how they are spent. 
> 
>I agree.  When developing characters for a local fedual Japan game, it was 
>discovered that a 'proper' samurai (meaning one that had all the skills 
>and training one would expect for a historical samurai) would probably top 
>200 points real fast.  75% of that would be skills, and the character 
>would probably fold like a house of cards to your average 250 point super. 
 
My point is that those 268 points in Genocide agents ISN'T spent on skills; 
it's something like 142 points in gadgets. A black belt (plus) in martial 
arts. More arms training than a Marine. 
 
Personally, I'd like to see the 200 point 'average' samurai. That's samurai 
retainer, not a lord. I question the need to buy a martial art for such a 
samurai in the first place (most would have FAM with the appropriate weapons 
and a couple skill levels, not a full Kenjitsu package). I'll bet a lot of 
the writeup could be wrapped into PS: Samurai...<shrug>. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:49:46 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Joe Cop 
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Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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><< Wow, I take it this is "not your father's Package Deal" >> 
> 
>  Actually I wasn't clear (I had two thoughts running in my head at the same 
>time). The extra Packages themselves (the SWAT package, the EOD package, the 
>Jailer package, etc.) are like 5-15 Pts each. It's the very Basic Package (a 
>rookie cop freash out of the academy) that costs a whopping 30 Pts (not 
>counting stats and background skills), IIRC, and the total characters that 
>cost so much. 
 
Okay, THAT makes a whole lot more sense. Your average street cop (your best 
buddy in law and order!) shouldn't progress too far from the baseline (a few 
skill improvements here and there, some extra PRE/EGO from experience, 
etc.). Of course cross-trained uber-cop (was in SWAT, now a Homicide 
Detective, etc.) will have tons of skills. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 00:01:45 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
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On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
> >I agree.  When developing characters for a local fedual Japan game, it was 
> >discovered that a 'proper' samurai (meaning one that had all the skills 
> >and training one would expect for a historical samurai) would probably top 
> >200 points real fast.  75% of that would be skills, and the character 
> >would probably fold like a house of cards to your average 250 point super. 
>  
> My point is that those 268 points in Genocide agents ISN'T spent on skills; 
> it's something like 142 points in gadgets. A black belt (plus) in martial 
> arts. More arms training than a Marine. 
 
Well, to be honest, I didn't care for Mutant File.  I didn't use mutant in 
my old Champions game and I found a lot of the write-ups in MF to be just 
plain gross in terms of power level. 
  
> Personally, I'd like to see the 200 point 'average' samurai. That's samurai 
> retainer, not a lord. I question the need to buy a martial art for such a 
> samurai in the first place (most would have FAM with the appropriate weapons 
> and a couple skill levels, not a full Kenjitsu package). I'll bet a lot of 
> the writeup could be wrapped into PS: Samurai...<shrug>. 
 
A run-of-the-mill 'bushi' would be maybe 10 points and be built like the 
samurai you mention.  But, a proper samurai retainer, as in one given the 
right to wear a daisho, would have been trained in the use of his swords, 
often from a very young age.  He also would have been trained in proper 
court behavior, riding, the use of a slew of weapons, be expected to write 
well, be a poet, possibly play a musical instrument, the tea ceremony... 
It isprobably a matter of opinion as to how much one can file under PS: 
Samurai (or cop or knight). 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 22:00:15 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: Minutemen VII 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>Gah! Don't even mention the Minutemen VII. Mutant hunting robots should be 
>able to go toe-to-toe with the average super, one-on-one, but a robot that 
>can take an entire team and easily win...bleah! I want to use Minutemen as 
>Genocide's genre bit; not as their 'final assault' weapon. I'd rather 
>Genocide not have many agents at all; relying primarily on Minutemen for 
>thier dirty work. It makes Genocide distinctive from VIPER (power levels 
aside). 
 
For making agencies distinct I always have tried to make thier goals and 
modus operandi very distinct.  Viper is after money, pure and simple (I dont 
have the VIPER book plot in place), and they use huge schemes to keep their 
name in high profile.  Genocide is after genetic purity, at any cost; no 
robots, only humans using high tech. 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: uh, what's this with subscribing again? 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:03:38 +1000 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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i just got another 'do you want to subcribe' command. .. i'm gona ignore 
it, 	 
since i've already got about 5. .. .hope it's nothing important. .. anyone 
else 
got simmilar messages? 
 
*backs slowly away*  
 
 
 
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Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 22:05:34 -0700 
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com> 
Organization: None 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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John and Ron Prins wrote: Oh, on a side note; how many Silver Avengers have gone 
bad to date? 
 
> Vengeance (genocide White King's Bishop), Red Shield (Red Doom Member), and 
> Armstrong (VIPER Force-2's leader). Isn't it getting a bit clich? :-) 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> "Now, we get bigger guns." 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
> jprins@interhop.net 
 
  I concour on that note. But I think that the characters who have come from the 
cliche have given me PRIMUS's Personality. I originally though PRIMUS was like 
SHIELD, or UNTIL but now I See them more as SAT, almost a government supported 
Klan. The Golden Avenger in my Campaigns has been a glory hounding asshole who has 
great PR. Half the heroes in the world wanna shove his face into a toilet. The 
Silver Avengers are chosen by him (or to fill quotas) so Its easy to see them 
being easily disillusioned. I have Three other Renegade SA's. A vigilante named 
Justice (original no?), A hero named American Steel, and a villain crimelord known 
as Avenger Black who was trying to cripple national security and the criminal 
underworld by causing a series of "gang wars" so he could take over...... 
 
I also have had the cyberline treatment stolen and given to the leaders of the 
Shadowlords; world conquerers for hire.... 
 
I'm a ramblin' guy 
 
 
Chad 
 
 
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Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 22:20:06 -0700 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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> Yes, that's correct. The advantage for us with the New Millennium setting is 
> that since we own all of the characters in it, authors can freely reference 
> and develop those characters in subsequent New Millennium products. While we 
> own many of the characters in the Champions Universe, we don't own all of 
> them, so it gets much trickier for authors trying to add to that setting. 
 
	Not up for a DC/Marvel style retcon to explain how all those old 
characters that you don't own not only no longer exist but actually 
never did? :) 
	Something like this may actually be a justifiable use of that 
technique. Though I imagine many fans would flame you for it anyway. :) 
 
--  
Rook			    
 __ 
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html  Super Hero Links Page 
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/              Super Hero Role 
Playing 
 
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Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 22:28:34 -0700 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Standardization (Re: Genocide and Mutants) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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> > There's very 
> >little in the book I'm not using in my campaigns _somehow_ ... but there's 
> >also very little in the book that got used "as is", or even close to "as 
> >is". 
>  
> That's just it; you have to do so much modifying in most campaigns that you 
> might as well write up your own version of Genocide. This does not, IMHO, 
> constitute a 'good suppliment'. To compare, I would use most of VIPER as-is. 
> And VIPER is supposed to be the technological bad-ass, as far as 
> organizations go. But Genocide totes around way better stuff! 
 
	THis is a key point. I'm a strong believer that Hero needs to establish 
a standard 'published power level' that all published works reference. 
So that when 
I see a 400 point super I know she's suppossed to be X times more potent 
than the 
'average'. 
 
	If all published stuff stuck to a standard design philosophy and power 
level, it 
would be trivial for me to modify anything new to my game's level's. 
 
	As is, when I open a given book and all it's super's are at 350 points 
and it's agents at 200; I don't know if this is because of the way that 
author played their games, or if those characters were supposed to be 
tougher than normal. I have to read through everything several times, 
then make an educated guess, before I know best how to adopt it into my 
game's world and my design philosophy. 
 
--  
Rook			    
 __ 
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html  Super Hero Links Page 
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/              Super Hero Role 
Playing 
 
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From: Eric Pawtowski <epawtows@acm.vt.edu> 
Subject: Re: [Off-Topic] Other superhero RPGs 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 03:00:16 -0400 (EDT) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>  
> Villians and Vigilantes: I've only looked at the first edition of this game; 
> it's an amusing random character creation system, though characters tend to be 
> somewhat better balanced against one another than they are in Marvel Super 
 
I remember a bunch of us spending an afternoon rolling up characters  
and falling off our chairs laughing at how rediculious the resulting  
characters tended to be.... 
 
    Eric 
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 06:41:02 -0400 
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Subject: COM rules [Really Long!] 
To: "INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
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>               Target's EGO +10        Target is enamored. Thinks 
> attacker is friendly unless shown otherwise. Will tend to believe any 
> reasonable thing attacker says. Will grant attacker requests that target 
> wouldn't mind doing. Target will hesitate as above, and only performs a 
> half phase action during the COM attack's phase. +2D6 to PRE attacks vs. 
> target. +2 to PRE based skills vs. target. 
 
Whoa! This almost perfectly describes my relationship with Tonya Harding. 
Spooky... 
 
Jeff Reid 
Morfhis@compuserve.com 
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm 
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 06:49:10 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 10:20 PM 4/9/98 -0700, you wrote: 
>> Yes, that's correct. The advantage for us with the New Millennium 
setting is 
>> that since we own all of the characters in it, authors can freely reference 
>> and develop those characters in subsequent New Millennium products. 
While we 
>> own many of the characters in the Champions Universe, we don't own all of 
>> them, so it gets much trickier for authors trying to add to that setting. 
> 
>	Not up for a DC/Marvel style retcon to explain how all those old 
>characters that you don't own not only no longer exist but actually 
>never did? :) 
>	Something like this may actually be a justifiable use of that 
>technique. Though I imagine many fans would flame you for it anyway. :) 
 
I know I would.  That's exactly the sort of thing that I was concerned 
about when I read the "Hero Universe 1.0" document and Timeline. 
 
Damon 
 
--------------------- 
Dream or reality, the experience is the same, is it not? 
				-- Michael Moorcock 
 
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Re:  Re: More book reviews, please 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:04:51 -0400 (EDT) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Steve Peterson wrote: 
> In a message dated 4/9/98 6:56:34 PM, you wrote:  
>   
> >Tell me Steve, have you ever considered using HTML instead of Acrobat  
> >to create these electronic books?  Personally, I find that Acrobat is very  
> >slow and unwieldy on my computer.  
>   
> Sorry to hear that; I do know there are some folks who have problems running  
> Acrobat, particularly on older machines. We intend to stick with Acrobat,  
 
It doesn't work well on Pentium II 300. 
 
> though, because it has many more features than HTML. For one thing, we can get  
> all the text, graphics and fonts easily into Acrobat files, and from our  
> existing PageMaker files, with very little work.  
 
Acrobat refuses to print my copy of Eye for an Eye.  Any page with a 
picture and headings only prints the heading.  You can't export the text 
from Acrobat in any meaningful way, either.  (And I do have the lastest 
copies of Win 95, Acrobat, and printer drivers for my Epson Stylus Color 
600.)  I will never buy another Hero Plus product until it is available in 
another (read: better) format. 
 
  Joe 
 
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From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: COM rules [Really Long!] 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:20:48 -0500 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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	 > At 05:34 PM 4/9/1998 -0500, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA 
wrote: 
	> >  These are the COM rules from my house rules! 
	 >>    Puma raise shields to deflect anticipated flames! ^_^; 
 
	From:	Bob Greenwade [SMTP:bob.greenwade@klock.com] 
 
	 >    No flames from this corner.  I like it.  It's finally 
something concrete 
	> that can be done with COM. 
 
		 Much Thanks! 
 
	 >    I'd only make two substantial alterations.  The first is 
that the 
	> attacker has to declare a COM Attack to do it, unless the 
target has some 
	> Psychological Limitation or other reason for an automatic 
effect.   
		 
	Reasonable, although had in mind hot babe in skimpy outfit doing 
	attack when made rules. If dressed and acting "normally", would 
have 
	to decalre it. But, if wearing skimpy outfit, etc, its automatic 
(whether 
	you want to do it or not! :) Psych lims, etc. can effect it as 
you said. 
 
	 > Also, 
	 > bonus dice should be available for special circumstances, 
though because 
	> COM is so much cheaper than PRE they should be harder to come 
by. 
 
	Yes, breifly mentioned this. Can get extra dice just as with a 
PRE attack. 
	EX: Hot babe gets costume blown off! ^_^; Useing Seduction 
skill, etc. 
 
> --- 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
	"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"  
					- Joan of Arc's .sig 
     Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
 
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From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: COM rules [Really Long!] 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:30:16 -0500 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>No Flames, just wondering why anybody would buy PRE to more than 
>a medium value with a 2-for-1 deal with COM. 
 
PRE attacks work on EVERYONE and EVERYTHING (monsters too). 
COM attacks just work on the opposite sex. 
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
	"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"  
					- Joan of Arc's .sig 
     Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:33:30 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: COM rules [Really Long!] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, David W Toomey wrote: 
 
>  
> On Thu, 9 Apr 1998 17:34:56 -0500  "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" 
> <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> writes: 
> >		These are the COM rules from my house rules! 
> >		Puma raise shields to deflect anticipated flames! ^_^; 
> > 
> >		Comeliness: 
> >			When a target sees an attractive (high COM) 
> >member of the opposite sex (the attacker), the attacker should make a 
> >comeliness roll. The roll is made using 1D6 for every 5 points in 
> >comeliness the attacker has. The damage on the roll is totaled and 
> >applied against the target's EGO. Results are determined from the  
> >chart 
> >shown below: 
>  
> <<--snipped-->> 
>  
>  
> No Flames, just wondering why anybody would buy PRE to more than 
> a medium value with a 2-for-1 deal with COM. 
 
Because it's better suited to the character concept.   
 
Also, PRE is used as a skill basis and as an alternative resistance to PRE 
Attacks (more correctly, EGO is the alternative resistance and PRE is the 
standard resistance).  If you beef up the game-mechanical abilities that 
COM gives you to match this, I'd recommend increasing the price of COM to 
match the price of PRE.   
 
> I normally add 1d6  for every 5 pts of COM above 10 to appropriate PRE 
> attacks. 
 
This doesn't remedy the game-mechanical problem you describe above; you 
can still get +1d6 PRE Attack for only 2.5 character points by buying it 
through COM instead of PRE.   
 
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver --------- 
  Webpage:  http://www.io.com/~traveler  /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists 
  GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life  ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing, 
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www  |  that all points of view have 
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet  |  something of value to offer. 
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com |  --David Brin, "Otherness" 
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:00:03 -0400 
From: Justin Calvaneso <jcalvaneso@raptor.com> 
Organization: Raptor Systems 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 37 
 
 
 
Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> Tell me Steve, have you ever considered using HTML instead of Acrobat 
> to create these electronic books?  Personally, I find that Acrobat is very 
> slow and unwieldy on my computer. 
 
    Same prob here. I have a little P75 w/16MB RAM. Large PDF's don't make it very 
happy. HTML on the other hand can be handled quite nicely. See White Wolf's Vampire 
CD Rom. They reprinted 5 books in more or less the same format (graphics are intact, 
electronic and paper book pages correspond to on another), and used HTML. <shrug> 
It's something to consider. 
 
--- 
Justin Calvaneso                  Raptor Systems, Inc. 
Test Lab Technician               a division of Axent Technologies 
jcalvaneso@raptor.com             266 Second Avenue 
(781) 530-2362                    Waltham, MA 02154 
--- 
 
 
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:04:05 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  Re: Re:  Re: More book reviews, please 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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In a message dated 4/10/98 7:13:33 AM, you wrote: 
 
>It doesn't work well on Pentium II 300. 
> 
>> though, because it has many more features than HTML. For one thing, we can 
get 
> 
>> all the text, graphics and fonts easily into Acrobat files, and from our  
>> existing PageMaker files, with very little work.  
> 
>Acrobat refuses to print my copy of Eye for an Eye.  Any page with a 
>picture and headings only prints the heading.  You can't export the text 
>from Acrobat in any meaningful way, either.  (And I do have the lastest 
>copies of Win 95, Acrobat, and printer drivers for my Epson Stylus Color 
>600.)  I will never buy another Hero Plus product until it is available in 
>another (read: better) format. 
 
There's obviously some reason why Acrobat dislikes your particular 
configuration; perhaps Adobe can help you out. We've seen no problems with 
Acrobat on a wide variety of machines, and none of the other possibilities 
we've looked at have come anywhere close to offering us (as publishers) the 
features of Acrobat. Also, Adobe continues to work on improving Acrobat, and 
continues to support multiple platforms (including UNIX). No solution we 
choose is going to work for everyone, though, so we just have to go with the 
best choice we have. 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games 
 
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: More book reviews, please 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 08:06:11 -0700 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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Mark, 
 
You'll be getting Haymaker #16 any day now. In it is my take on the cop 
skill debate (among other skill packages). 
 
Dave Mattingly 
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:21:46 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: COM rules [Really Long!] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 40 
 
On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA wrote: 
 
> >No Flames, just wondering why anybody would buy PRE to more than 
> >a medium value with a 2-for-1 deal with COM. 
>  
> PRE attacks work on EVERYONE and EVERYTHING (monsters too). 
> COM attacks just work on the opposite sex. 
 
Make that 'appropriate' sex...after all, the Incredible Hunk should be 
able to use his COM attack vs, say, Northstar of Alpha Flight... 
 
Also, PRE attacks can be used to inspire, lead, cause fear, etc - they're 
a lot more versatile than a COM attack, which can basically be used to 
seduce. 
 
J 
 
"One equal temper of heroic hearts,              http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will              jeffj@io.com 
 To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."    - Tennyson, "Ulysses" 
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 08:45:11 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Reply-To headers and Junk Threads 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 32 
 
Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>  
 
> > I said before, this is a group discussion list, the default reply should go back 
> > to the list. 
>  
>         Actually, no.  A group discussion list places itself as merely a 
> waystation for the mail.  It still should be from the various individuals. 
> You may think you have some common sense on your side, but it's a false 
> common sense disproven by years of internet mailing lists. 
 
Say, what?   
 
I've participated in mailing lists off and on since 1983, and I have seen  
lists do it both ways, depending on convenience and the purpose of the  
list.  In fact, with some lists, there was not anything in the header  
that indicated where the message came from: you had to rely on  
signatures.  In fact, this was one of the *reasons* to have a sig file. 
 
I have seen people get high and mighty about silly things in fifteen  
years on the net, but this is one for the books.  I think it reasonable   
to have an on-list meta-discussion about the list rules, but, people!   
This is not a moral issue!  Lighten up! 
 
The current method is slightly more convenient for me, because 95% of the  
time, I want to reply to the group.  Either I have to cut-and-paste to  
avoid sending default replies to both the group and the author, or I have  
to cut-and-paste to send occasional replies to the author only. 
 
But, this is just a slight matter of convenience.   
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:45:33 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: COM rules [Really Long!] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 41 
 
On Fri, 10 Apr 1998, Sakura wrote: 
 
> Also, PRE attacks can be used to inspire, lead, cause fear, etc - they're 
> a lot more versatile than a COM attack, which can basically be used to 
> seduce. 
 
Perhaps it would be better simply to change Seduction to a COM-based 
skill, and be done with it... 
 
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver --------- 
  Webpage:  http://www.io.com/~traveler  /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists 
  GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life  ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing, 
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www  |  that all points of view have 
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet  |  something of value to offer. 
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com |  --David Brin, "Otherness" 
 
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Subject: Reply-To Problems 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:49:00 -0400 
x-sender: dfair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <dfair@sdslink.com> 
To: "Hero Games" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 42 
 
>Mark, 
> 
>You'll be getting Haymaker #16 any day now. In it is my take on the cop 
>skill debate (among other skill packages). 
> 
 
Misdirected mail is the major problem with screwing with reply-to  
addresses on mailing lists. My guess is that this was intended as private  
mail. 
 
David A. Fair         | 
SDS International     |     Think Different 
dfair@sdslink.com     | 
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 08:59:40 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Genocide 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 09:45 PM 4/9/1998 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, Christopher Taylor wrote: 
> 
>> I concur, I thought The Mutant File ranked right up there with oh, High 
Tech 
>> Enemies for most useless supplement.  My biggest annoyance was the mutant 
>> working in Genocide... like a virulently anti mutant organization wouldnt 
>> EVER notice that (nothing is detect proof). 
> 
>I find it very interesting that Sean Fannon wrote both of these books.  I 
>beleive that part of the problem stems from the fact that Sean is noted 
>for running an 'unlmited' points game, where the characters were as 
>expensive as the player wanted.  Sean appreantly thinks *everyone* runs 
>games at this power level and wrote his books accordingly. 
 
   This speaks to the need for a "standard" power range.  A good 
organizational write-up should, at its most basic level, be defeatable by a 
low-powered group of 100+100 supers or 75+75+75 super agents, but still 
have elements that can challenge the unlimited-points crowd.  VIPER handled 
that easily.  I hope to at least approach that standard in my VOICE update. 
   This is, I think, where Sean really fell down in his creation of 
Genocide.  A team of seven Pawns (half the stated standard) plus a Rook is 
just enough to challenge a beginning team of five to seven 100+200 PCs, but 
if I had a low-powered 100+100 game I'm not sure how I'd use them.  Other 
Fannon organizations, like IMAGE and Cy-Force, don't suffer that way.  I 
think he was trying to create a frightening organization, and overstepped. 
   Amy Crittenden mentioned something in one of the chats with Bruce about 
doing a Genocide update.  Amy, if you do that, and if you're still on the 
list, I have a couple of bits of advice:  1. Don't ignore or try to retcon 
Sean's work; build on it, and create a forward continuity that corrects the 
problems.  2. Keep in mind the breadth of possible power levels in CU 
campaigns, and write accordingly.  3. Pay close attention to the comments 
made by folks here on the list.  I got valuable ideas for TUSV, and got a 
few for VOICE (and I'll be seeking out more later on, after I've sent in 
the Final Draft for TUSV). 
   That's all.  :-] 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:22:17 -0500 
Subject: Re: COM rules [Really Long!] 
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From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David W Toomey) 
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On Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:33:30 -0500 (CDT) Dataweaver <traveler@io.com> 
writes: 
>On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, David W Toomey wrote: 
>> I normally add 1d6  for every 5 pts of COM above 10 to appropriate  
>PRE 
>> attacks. 
> 
>This doesn't remedy the game-mechanical problem you describe above;  
>you 
>can still get +1d6 PRE Attack for only 2.5 character points by buying  
>it 
>through COM instead of PRE.   
 
 
That's why I said *appropriate* PRE attacks. A -1 limit on extra PRE 
defined 
as "same sex (usually) only, Offensive only, Only to charm: Not for fear, 
morale 
building,etc"  would be accepted in my campaign. 
 
 
David W Toomey 
dwtoomey@juno.com 
 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:24:23 -0500 
Subject: Re: COM rules [Really Long!] 
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From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David W Toomey) 
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On Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:30:16 -0500 "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" 
<andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> writes: 
>>No Flames, just wondering why anybody would buy PRE to more than 
>>a medium value with a 2-for-1 deal with COM. 
> 
>PRE attacks work on EVERYONE and EVERYTHING (monsters too). 
>COM attacks just work on the opposite sex. 
 
 
So buy PRE with -1 limitation...don't re-write the rules when with 
appropriate 
SFX, the available rules work 
 
 
David W Toomey 
dwtoomey@juno.com 
 
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From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: COM rules [Really Long!] 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:25:08 -0500 
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>Make that 'appropriate' sex...after all, the Incredible Hunk should be 
>able to use his COM attack vs, say, Northstar of Alpha Flight... 
 
Very True! Can cause 'problems' for the attacker! ^_^; 
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
	"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"  
					- Joan of Arc's .sig 
     Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:52:34 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Acrobat 
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At 10:04 AM 4/10/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>> >Tell me Steve, have you ever considered using HTML instead of Acrobat  
>> >to create these electronic books?  Personally, I find that Acrobat is 
very  
>> >slow and unwieldy on my computer.  
>>   
>> Sorry to hear that; I do know there are some folks who have problems 
running  
>> Acrobat, particularly on older machines. We intend to stick with Acrobat,  
> 
>It doesn't work well on Pentium II 300. 
 
   That's funny; Acrobat Reader works great on my 486/80! 
 
>> though, because it has many more features than HTML. For one thing, we 
can get  
>> all the text, graphics and fonts easily into Acrobat files, and from our  
>> existing PageMaker files, with very little work.  
> 
>Acrobat refuses to print my copy of Eye for an Eye.  Any page with a 
>picture and headings only prints the heading.  You can't export the text 
>from Acrobat in any meaningful way, either.  (And I do have the lastest 
>copies of Win 95, Acrobat, and printer drivers for my Epson Stylus Color 
>600.)  I will never buy another Hero Plus product until it is available in 
>another (read: better) format. 
 
   Please consider _selectively_ buying books in the print format. 
--- 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:52:44 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
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<< ...they're combat monsters, as far as normals go (14 DEX, 4 combat levels, 
5 martial arts maneuvers, familiar with all firearms). It should take _years_ 
of _daily_ training to get this good. Genocide agents shouldn't have 'normal' 
lives period. >> 
 
  I disagree. 20 is the "peak" of human ability with regard to stats, but 
normal humans *can* go above 20... it just costs them more points. ;)  My 
point is that regular everyday normal non-super-type humans can have a stat 
higher than 20. Further, if 10 is the *average* score, then why is it so 
unfathomable for a skilled agent to have a 14. I have worked with many cops 
that I would consider having a 14+ DEX and a 4 SPD in Hero System terms, and I 
assure you that they have not had years of daily training (unless doughnuts 
and mochas count as training <G>). 
 
  I'm not advocating the increase of human NPC stats across the board, only 
that a 14 is not as unreasonable as some may think for agents. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:57:02 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Wounded Penalties? 
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At 08:49 PM 4/9/1998 EDT, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< Does anyone know whether there are penalties on succeeding at physical 
>actions while wounded in the Champs rules? >> 
> 
>  Pp. 162-1677 is the only relevant section I could find. :/ 
 
   Yep, over 1500 pages of text on the subject!  ;-] 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:59:19 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
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At 10:44 PM 4/9/1998 EDT, Hero Games wrote: 
>Our solution is to use the electronic book format to bring old books back 
into 
>print, in cases where it would not be cost-effective to print it again. 
>Electronic books are far less expensive for us to bring out, and we can keep 
>them in print forever because they don't have minimum quantities like paper 
>books do. 
 
   You might even say that it *does* have a minimum quantity -- one.  :-] 
--- 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:59:40 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Samurai 
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At 10:57 PM 4/9/1998 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, GoldRushG wrote: 
> 
>> << I agree.  When developing characters for a local fedual Japan game, 
it was 
>> discovered that a 'proper' samurai (meaning one that had all the skills 
>> and training one would expect for a historical samurai) would probably top 
>> 200 points real fast.>> 
>>  
>>   I came up with a total even higher than that. And let's not talk about 
given 
>> them a separate Martial Arts Style package for each appropriate weapon 
(as per 
>> UMA)! <LOL> 
> 
>Let's see... kenjutsu, yarijutsu, kyujutsu, jujutsu... possibly 
>naginatajustsu... oh, that could be 50 points right there! 
 
   Don't forget that once you buy a maneuver (in game terms), it's bought 
for all of the styles you know.  (Though there's not as much crossover 
among those styles as one might think.) 
--- 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 09:59:51 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Genocide 
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At 11:15 PM 4/9/1998 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
>>   Pawns carry multiple weapons, paying full cost for each (rather than 
>>taking the option, introduced somewhat later, of putting multiple weapons 
>>into a single Multipower).  They also have points spent in stuff like 
>>Martial Arts, and even a motion detector.  These things suck up points, 
>>making a character more versatile but less powerful overall for a 
>>deceptively high cost. 
> 
>Yes, I know, but Genocide agents are built to thwart just about every 
>super-option for taking out agents without doing serious harm. They have gas 
>masks to foil NNDs; they have Flash Defense to foil Flashes; they have Sonar 
>to foil Darkness. 
 
   And why wouldn't they be?  (Though I could probably go along with 
ditching the motion detector as standard-issue equipment.) 
 
>But what's worse, they have MORE skill levels than you'd expect from Navy 
>SEALs. These are supposed to be guys described as coming from all walks of 
>life, but they're combat monsters, as far as normals go (14 DEX, 4 combat 
>levels, 5 martial arts maneuvers, familiar with all firearms). It should 
>take _years_ of _daily_ training to get this good. Genocide agents shouldn't 
>have 'normal' lives period. 
 
   I could also see ditching the CSLs.  However, the rest make sense, 
considering their philosophy of life.  Remember, real-world survivialists 
and weekend warriors also come from "all walks of life." 
 
>Also, most of them carry equipment that would make the average PC gadgeteer 
>drool with envy; 4D6 Area Effect STR Drain, 3D6 Autofire x10 RKA, 8D6 Area 
>Effect Suppress vs All Psionic Powers, 40 STR Area Effect Telekinesis, 8D6 
>Suppress vs. Energy-Based Powers* - Genocide agents are generally holding 
>weapons in the 80-160 active point range! Yes, Seeker could clobber one 
>right quick; but a single hit from the right Genocide weapons will 
>completely neutralize most heroes. Most VIPER weapons cap out at 90 active 
>points, and those tend to act on conventional defenses (which heroes 
>generally have lots of). And the average agent has a 40-60 AP weapon. 
>They're not _all_ heaving around 100+ AP weapons (and a 45 AP sidearm plus a 
>70+ AP grenade weapon). 
> 
>*A crock of an SFX if I ever saw one! 
 
   Most of your points here I'll concede; a couple I'd debate.  I'll cover 
the latter category first. 
   As for Special Defenses and weapons that act against them, that's part 
of Genocide's bailiwick.  They're fighting mutants, and so have to address 
the presence of mutant powers. 
   And while I'd agree that a *lower* proportion of the Pawns should carry 
around butt-busting weapons (not *all* of them do now; and I don't really 
count the TK weapon in this category), and that some of these weapons 
should be toned down a bit, they should still be significantly more 
frequent and more powerful than what's in VIPER.  VIPER agents are intended 
for 5:1 match-ups, while Pawns should work best in 3:1 (or maybe 2:1) 
match-ups.  (Yes, note in another of my posts that what I do now is closer 
to 3:2.) 
   I'd agree wholehearedly about that crock in the Suppress weapon.  I end 
up consciously reading that as "All Powers of Any One Energy-Based SFX 
(choose)." 
   To expand on my concession about *how* big these uberweapons are, I 
think some general level should be set and stuck to.  90 AP is generally 
good for a typical butt-buster, or 120 if you really want something tough 
(though that should have just 1-2 Charges or be similarly Limited).  Use AE 
sparingly; at least a couple of the weapons have AE:hex that really 
shouldn't.  It seems to me that a lot of the constructs were built with 
game mechanics in mind rather than special effects. 
 
>Also, I object to the 'cookie-cutter' higher-up pawns as well. The Knights 
>are more than a match for any one super, and Rooks put most power armor 
>supers to shame. 
 
   I think the Knights *should* be more than a match for any one super, and 
require at least two to cleanly defeat.  Only one or at most two should be 
present at any encounter. 
   I will tend to agree on the Rooks, though.  They should just about equal 
any one super.  On them, I think I'd kill the Lack of Weakness and 
Knockback Resistance (I don't see much SFX reason for the latter anyway), 
cut the pool to 60 points, drop one of the two pairs of CSLs, leave off the 
Radar, and cut REC and STUN to base levels. 
 
>Oh, and you'll note that the Rooks and Knights don't hate mutants, at least 
>not on a Psychological Limitation level ^_^. 
 
   Can you say, "Silly Oversight," boys and girls?  :-] 
 
>>And don't even think about sending PCs against Genocide's higher-ups unless 
>>they're powerful *and* experienced. 
> 
>The funny thing is that a handful of Genocide agents could wipe out the 
>leadership. There's some quality villian planning if I ever saw it :-). 
 
   Yep.  Like I said, the Pawns are *a tad* overpowered, but not as grossly 
overpowered as their point total would suggest. 
 
>Oh, on a side note; how many Silver Avengers have gone bad to date? 
>Vengeance (genocide White King's Bishop), Red Shield (Red Doom Member), and 
>Armstrong (VIPER Force-2's leader). Isn't it getting a bit clich? :-) 
 
   I think that's why there's a de factor moratorium on Silver Avengers 
gone bad (though I had a logical explanation for it that I would've put 
into my update of PRIMUS had Shelley not gotten that book). 
--- 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:03:10 -0700 (PDT) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Re: [Off-Topic] Other superhero RPGs 
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---Eric Pawtowski  wrote: 
> 
> >  
> > Villians and Vigilantes: I've only looked at the first edition of 
this game; 
> > it's an amusing random character creation system, though 
characters tend to be 
> > somewhat better balanced against one another than they are in 
Marvel Super 
>  
> I remember a bunch of us spending an afternoon rolling up characters  
> and falling off our chairs laughing at how rediculious the resulting  
> characters tended to be.... 
 
"Ice Powers - your character has the ability to freeze and entire city 
block.  Does 1d6 damage". (or was it 1d10?) 
 
 
== 
 
     John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
============================================ 
Got a question about the list?  Just ask.  Or, you can go 
look over at www.sysabend.org/champions.  I've been 
slowly posting information about the list there. 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:14:19 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
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<< You gotta be kidding me. This is a case of over-building if the Street Cop 
has 200 points. Unless, UNLESS, you're playing Police HERO. >> 
 
  Given that "Law & Order" is intended to be the definitive law enforcement 
sourcebook for Hero System (and other games), it kinda stands to reason that 
we're going for the full-bore cop write-up, as well as "Police Hero"-type 
characters. 
 
  Remember -- these characters are the PC or "major NPC" type of write-ups. 
Having spent more than 10 years in this profession and having gone through two 
full-time academies, I can assure you that cops have a heck of a lot more than 
25 Pts. in skills and such. <LOL> Unless you think that somehow I've been 
duped and the skills I learned don't really exist... ;) 
 
<< How the hell did Joe Cop spend 200 points anyways? ...once you've bought 
PS: Police Officer and KS: Police Procedures and mayyyybe KS: Law, a couple 
weapon FAMs and Combat Driving, what have you got left to buy? >> 
 
  There is KS: Civil Law 8-, AK: Patrol Area, Forensic Science 8-, and much, 
much more. Again, this is not intended, necessarily, to be the write-up you 
*must* use for your NPC cops. I'm talking a real-world big city cop expressed 
in Hero System terms. 
 
  Steve Peterson, Bruce Harlick, Steve Long and a host of other Hero folk have 
seen some of this material and I assure you that none of them said "Whoa! Too 
many points! Cut them in half!" <LOL> 
 
<< Joe Cop is a skilled normal; the higher-ups (detectives, etc.) shouldn't 
break out beyond 100 points IMHO. >> 
 
  As per the existing Hero System guidelines, no, they shouldn't. However, 
we're breaking those boundaries because they are not realistic when exploring 
cops as full blown characters. Again, think of this books as "The Ultimate Law 
Enforcer" if it helps to keep it in perspective. ;) 
 
<< Look at it this way; if Joe Cop is built on 200 points, if my character 
wants to play a Cop who gained super powers, he'll have...50 points worth of 
super-powers and attributes. >> 
 
  That's fine and well, but this book is designed for more than just a four- 
color Champions campaign. And the players do not have to take our published 
materials as mandatory. It will be a "realistically accurate" portrayal of law 
enforcement in Hero System terms. 
 
  So I suppose you think that a Fast Draw modifier for different holster types 
is excessieve, too? Sheesh. Good thing I didn't tell him about the 750 Pt. 
police cruisers! ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:14:53 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re: COM rules [Really Long!] 
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At 09:30 AM 4/10/98 -0500, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA wrote: 
>>No Flames, just wondering why anybody would buy PRE to more than 
>>a medium value with a 2-for-1 deal with COM. 
> 
>PRE attacks work on EVERYONE and EVERYTHING (monsters too). 
>COM attacks just work on the opposite sex. 
> 
Well, to be fair, they ought to work on anyone physically attracted  
to you, regardless of their gender or yours.  
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:18:19 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
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<< More arms training than a Marine. >> 
 
  I'm going to have to go back and look at these write-ups. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:20:21 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: COM rules [Really Long!] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 11:25 AM 4/10/98 -0500, you wrote: 
>>Make that 'appropriate' sex...after all, the Incredible Hunk should be 
>>able to use his COM attack vs, say, Northstar of Alpha Flight... 
> 
>Very True! Can cause 'problems' for the attacker! ^_^; 
 
what a curious caveat... it obviously doesnt mean children either... nor 
dead people...  why include only one segment of the population that is an 
exception? 
Make that appropriate only to the same species, and to those able to respond 
(would Hellen Keller respond to seduction as normally applied?) as well...  
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:25:49 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Tell me more, Sir Vladimir... 
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  Hey, Mike S. Great list of skills for knights. I was just being a loon, mind 
you. I, of all people, can appreciate the costly list of skills a "real world" 
character can accumulate. ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:32:05 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop 
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<< Okay, THAT makes a whole lot more sense. Your average street cop (your best 
buddy in law and order!) shouldn't progress too far from the baseline (a few 
skill improvements here and there, some extra PRE/EGO from experience, etc.). 
>> 
 
  You're on the right track, but cops accumulate a lot of experience in the 
form of skill improvements, IMO. They have a lot more in the way of skills 
than you think. 
 
<< Of course cross-trained uber-cop (was in SWAT, now a Homicide Detective, 
etc.) will have tons of skills. >> 
 
  To imply that a "regular" cop is a lot less trained than a cop who is 
transferred to Homicide is short-sightedness. Cops don't make it to Homicide 
if they're lunk heads. :D  And everyday "normal" cops all have the basic 
training in crime scene protection and investigation. A street cop that can 
handle a robbery well but freezes up (INT Drain <LOL>) when he comes upon a 
homicide scene would be pretty silly. 
 
  Just messing around here, but the bottom line is that cops have a lot more 
points in skills than folks would think. There are a lot of things that cops 
do that aren't as obvious as the "Driving, shooting and arresting" that the 
media portrays. ;) 
 
  Of course, even with that said, there's nothing to say that cops in every 
genre of game play need this many points either. Sometimes cops only need to 
be skilled enough to run away and call the superheroes. ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:38:30 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Standardization (Re: Genocide and Mutants) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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<< THis is a key point. I'm a strong believer that Hero needs to establish a 
standard 'published power level' that all published works reference. So that 
when I see a 400 point super I know she's suppossed to be X times more potent 
than the 'average'.>> 
 
  Hmm... in *all* published works? Should Fantasy Hero fgollow the same 
guidelines as Champions, or Horror Hero? Or are you talking all books within a 
certain line? 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: COM rules [Really Long!] 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:44:16 -0700 (PDT) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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> >>Make that 'appropriate' sex...after all, the Incredible Hunk should be 
> >>able to use his COM attack vs, say, Northstar of Alpha Flight... 
> >Very True! Can cause 'problems' for the attacker! ^_^; 
> what a curious caveat... it obviously doesnt mean children either... nor 
> dead people...  why include only one segment of the population that is an 
> exception? 
> Make that appropriate only to the same species, and to those able to respond 
> (would Hellen Keller respond to seduction as normally applied?) as well...  
 
	How about: 
 
	Applies when circunstances deem it would logically apply.  
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:51:00 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>  So I suppose you think that a Fast Draw modifier for different holster 
types 
>is excessieve, too? Sheesh. Good thing I didn't tell him about the 750 Pt. 
>police cruisers! ;) 
 
I'd expect the cost of the cruiser to be paid for by the Department rather 
than the character (he doesn't own it, after all) at least the cost 
wouldn't be an issue.  I have seen spaceships built on fewer points, but as 
you say, realistic portrayal means you have to consider (and spend points 
for) details that are usually overlooked in a typical -- four-color 
especially -- Hero game.   
 
And of course the cars don't seem so "expensive" when bought in quantity: 
a single 750-pt car might cost 150 pts, but if you double the number of 
[identical] cars for +5 pts, even a small municipality can quickly get the 
cost down to around 5 pts per car (for 32 such vehicles). 
 
Perhaps posting a couple of excerpts on the GRG web page would answer some 
of these "to many points!" comments as well as whetting appetites for the 
final product? 
 
Damon 
 
--------------------------- 
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are 
any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.  
	-- Howard Aiken, American engineer, 
	   developed the first computers for IBM 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:56:14 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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<< You'll be getting Haymaker #16 any day now. In it is my take on the cop 
skill debate (among other skill packages). >> 
 
  What I find curious is that folks are "debating" this when they have not 
read "Law & Order" and apparently have not a good idea of what the book is 
intended to be. :D 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:04:23 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Hero Plus printed versions 
To: "INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
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Message text written by Hero Games: 
>Our solution is to use the electronic book format to bring old books back 
into 
>print, in cases where it would not be cost-effective to print it again. 
>Electronic books are far less expensive for us to bring out, and we can 
keep 
>them in print forever because they don't have minimum quantities like 
paper 
>books do. 
 
I noticed that you can buy printed, 3-hole punched versions of the Hero 
Plus stuff, but these are really expensive.  Are the prices this high 
because they are bigger than your average sourcebook, or because of color 
art, or some other reason?  I know that the first Hero Plus book (Ultimate 
Super Mage?) was supposed to be huge, but I don't know if that has been 
true for later supplements.  Certainly it isn't true for the old books that 
have been "reprinted" in electronic format. 
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:11:21 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Power Question: Gas Cloud 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Hm...I have a character who has the power to surround himself with a cloud of 
gas (doing NND damage, etc).  This is mostly a question about how this power 
should be bought.  Currently I have: 
1d6 NND, continuous, area effect radius, no range, 0 END, _plus_ darkness 2" 
radius (no range, linked to NND).  There are a couple problems with this, 
however. 
 
a)  Turning on this effect ends my phase.  This is not necessarily horrifying, 
but is somewhat weird. 
b)  While darkness is specifically permitted to follow the character about, 
attacks bought 'continuous' are not.  Should this be interpreted as a general 
property of continuous area effect powers? 
c)  Generally speaking, a continuous attack does damage on the phase of the 
person whose power it is, or when you enter the area.  Assuming (b) is true, 
what happens when you move your area on top of someone else?  Also, if a 
speedster were to run in and out of a continuous area effect multiple times 
(say, multiple movebys) would he take damage multiple times?  In addition, 
_when_ during your phase does the damage occur? 
d)  I have also seen this effect done via 'damage shield, area effect radius' 
-- in fact, I currently see an example of this on GRGs San Angelo page.  This 
has the advantage that (a) is not true, but it seems to violate the nature of a 
damage shield -- by the way the advantage is described, it seems that area 
effect damage shield would probably damage everyone nearby whenever you get 
hit, which probably is not the intent. 
 
So...any comments on how other people would do this effect? 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:12:23 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Wounded Penalties? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>  Pp. 162-1677 is the only relevant section I could find. :/ 
 
<< Yep, over 1500 pages of text on the subject!  ;-] >> 
 
 
  I'm going back in my cave. <LOL> 
 
  mark @ GRG 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
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John and Ron Prins writes: 
 
> How the hell did Joe Cop spend 200 points anyways? You say most of those 
> points are in skills, but once you've bought PS: Police Officer and KS: 
> Police Procedures and mayyyybe KS: Law, a couple weapon FAMs and Combat 
> Driving, what have you got left to buy? 
 
A few Combat Skill Levels with handguns or firearms in general.  A street 
cop should be a normal person built on 25 base plus 25 in disadvantages, 
plus whatever experience he may have earned. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
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Michael (Damon) or Peni R Griffin writes: 
 
> I'd expect the cost of the cruiser to be paid for by the Department rather 
> than the character (he doesn't own it, after all) 
 
Something you forgot: "things" do not cost anyone anything in an 
heroic-scale campaign.  Only supers have to spend points for "things". 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: LIST OWNER, PLEASE REPLY (was: Re: Reply-To headers and Junk Threads) 
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Sharky Dangerthorn writes: 
 
>> Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org> wrote: 
>> As I see it, the *only* reason we should consider keeping the "new" way 
>> is because Rat has threatened to leave... :) :) :) 
 
> ROFLMAO!!!!! 
 
Laugh while you can, monkey-boy, because I agree with Donald's statement, 
joke that it might be. 
 
Except that I do not threaten. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Samurai 
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Bob Greenwade writes: 
 
>    Don't forget that once you buy a maneuver (in game terms), it's bought 
> for all of the styles you know.  (Though there's not as much crossover 
> among those styles as one might think.) 
 
To be properly pedantic (because I am good at that :) a samurai is trained 
in exactly two skills: sword and poetry.  This can be (and historically 
was!) as simple as WF: Sword and a few combat skill levels, and an 
appropriate poetry writing skill.  Total cost: about 10 points. 
 
Spears (yari) are a footman's weapon, not a samurai's weapon; ditto for 
pole-arms (naginata), though those were frequently used by women as well as 
foot troops.  Unarmed fighting techniques would likewise be considered 
beneath a samurai -- he has his sword, after all. 
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:00:50 -0400 (EDT) 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
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X-UID: 74 
 
>WF: Sword, Shield, Lance, Bow (possibly quarterstaff) 
>Riding 
 
Yes. 
 
>High Society 
 
Hrm...maybe.  
 
>Tactics 
 
No. Not every knight was a landowner with a levy of men to direct. Besides, 
Tactics is one of those 'use sparingly' skills for when PCs are stumped - I 
think this could fall under PS: Knight unless you're a general or something. 
 
>KS: Dance 
 
Any idiot should be able to dance without requiring a KS. And not all nights 
were courtiers. 
 
>KS: Heraldry 
 
That's what you hire a Herald for... 
 
>KS: Chess 
 
Another 'any idiot' skill - someone with KS: Chess should be a renowned player. 
 
>PS: Knight 
 
Now you're talking. 
 
>KS: Hawking 
 
Again, not every knight flew hawks. 
 
>Animal Handler (horse and/or hawk) 
 
Yeah, from their squire days... 
 
>KS: Poetry 
 
'Any Idiot' skill. Only if you want _quality_ poetry should you have this 
skill. Heck, this assumes automatic literacy on the part of knights, which 
just isn't so, especially depending on when you look at knights... 
 
>Oratory 
 
Nope. 
 
>Perk: Knight 
 
Yep. 
 
>CSLs with weapons, martial arts and to counteract DCV minus from wearing 
>armor. 
>Martial Arts: sword and shield, mounted combat, great sword, pole arm 
 
Just combat levels. There's no need to delve into Martial Arts - IMHO it 
really should be saved for the 'exceptional' individuals (read: heroes and 
main bad guys). 
 
>Wealth - it was expensive to be a knight, which is why by the 15th C, many 
>squires stayed squires 
 
Yeah. 
 
>possible skills include Paramedic, Bureacratics (for dealing with middle 
>ages law - knights were the law enforcement of the time), and assorted 
>skills with running a manor and/or castle 
 
Follower: Wife (having a chatelaine is very useful...). In fact, a landed 
knight would have more than a few followers. 
 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:00:53 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 73 
 
>A run-of-the-mill 'bushi' would be maybe 10 points and be built like the 
>samurai you mention.  But, a proper samurai retainer, as in one given the 
>right to wear a daisho, would have been trained in the use of his swords, 
>often from a very young age.  He also would have been trained in proper 
>court behavior, riding, the use of a slew of weapons, be expected to write 
>well, be a poet, possibly play a musical instrument, the tea ceremony... 
>It isprobably a matter of opinion as to how much one can file under PS: 
>Samurai (or cop or knight). 
 
Indeed. I'm of the opinion that if you've got a PS, you can earn a living at 
it, and if you've got a KS, you can debate the topic. For samurai, most of 
the stuff you mention would be covered by PS: Samurai. Meaning that they can 
perform the various tasks well enough to not embarrass themselves. You only 
grab the PS/KS skills if you want to be exceptional. 
 
 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:16:37 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 76 
 
>> I'd expect the cost of the cruiser to be paid for by the Department rather 
>> than the character (he doesn't own it, after all) 
> 
>Something you forgot: "things" do not cost anyone anything in an 
>heroic-scale campaign.  Only supers have to spend points for "things". 
 
<sarcasm> 
Gosh!  My mistake!  I'd better rush right out and tell my Star Hero players 
that, thanks to their characters being built at the heroic level, they can 
have that 900-pt starship for free after all.  I'm sure they'll be pleased. 
</sarcasm> 
 
You sure you want to wait until Monday, Rat? 
 
Damon 
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:32:21 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Sharky Dangerthorn <dangerthorn@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Re: LIST OWNER, PLEASE REPLY (was: Re: Reply-To headers and Junk Threads) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 78 
 
 
---Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> wrote: 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> Sharky Dangerthorn writes: 
>  
> >> Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org> wrote: 
> >> As I see it, the *only* reason we should consider keeping the 
"new" way 
> >> is because Rat has threatened to leave... :) :) :) 
>  
> > ROFLMAO!!!!! 
>  
> Laugh while you can, monkey-boy, because I agree with Donald's 
statement, 
> joke that it might be. 
>  
> Except that I do not threaten. 
 
So you think that the list should keep the Reply-To, just so that you 
will leave?  I think that's what you would be saying if you were 
"agreeing" with Donald. 
 
That aside, I see that Donald was making a joke.  And I thought it was 
a funny joke.  We have made jokes like that around the gaming table 
about particular PC's, etc.  It was not meant to demean you.  It was 
in good fun. 
 
I guess the bottom line here is that you can leave the list at any 
time you choose.  And for whatever reason.  However, if you choose to 
persuade others on this list to rally to your flag by threatenting to 
leave, maybe you have overstated your clout. 
 
Either way, I appreciate your contributions to the list, both the 
times you have been right and the times you have been wrong.  Your 
insight, like everyone else's, is always appreciated. 
 
Thanks 
Jim 
 
== 
Jim Dickinson -=- Portland/Salem, OR, USA 
a.k.a. Sharky Dangerthorn, Midget, Hey You! 
Nicks on DALnet (IRC): Da_Midge Game_Knight 
 
Castle Game Knight: http://www.aircyber.net/~jd/cgk 
Join the Circle of HEROs: http://www.aircyber.net/~jd/coh 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Standardization (Re: Genocide and Mutants) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:35:30 -0700 (PDT) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 77 
 
>  
> << THis is a key point. I'm a strong believer that Hero needs to establish a 
> standard 'published power level' that all published works reference. So that 
> when I see a 400 point super I know she's suppossed to be X times more potent 
> than the 'average'.>> 
>  
>   Hmm... in *all* published works? Should Fantasy Hero fgollow the same 
> guidelines as Champions, or Horror Hero? Or are you talking all books within a 
> certain line? 
 
	Clearly all items within a given 'power level'. 
 
I'd want it even to the point where all the 'heroic games' like Justice Inc. 
and Fantasy Hero all use one concept of what a skilled normal and a heroic 
normal is, and then super uses another. 
 
	The BBB had such a thing. But then the suppliments mostly failed to 
follow it. Instead it looks like each author built things to their own 
campaign's desires. 
 
	Your 'cops' are, unfortunatly, an example of this. While I like how you 
describe them, and would do them in such detail myself; in a published work 
they should be catagorized as 'skilled normals' or 'heroic normals' and then 
all built within those limits. 
 
	If the current limits are breaking down in the face of the modern 
preference for more detailed skill lists; then perhaps in 5th those limits 
should be adjusted to reflect this. 
 
	But wherever those limits are, the published works should stick to them. 
House games can then modify as needed to fit their own preferences. 
 
	Otherwise it takes a lot of work to use any given suppliment in one's 
game. Work that shouldn't exist. 
 
	I should need to do the work of explaining a published work's presence 
in my world. But I should have almost no work adjusting stats and house rules. 
	The only rules work I should need to do would be to adjust it by the 
same ratios I adjust every published work to go from the standard to my own 
preferences. 
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:40:23 -0700 (PDT) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Subject: Re: Hero Plus printed versions 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 79 
 
---David B Stallard  wrote: 
> 
> Message text written by Hero Games: 
> >Our solution is to use the electronic book format to bring old 
books back 
> into 
> >print, in cases where it would not be cost-effective to print it 
again. 
> >Electronic books are far less expensive for us to bring out, and we 
can 
> keep 
> >them in print forever because they don't have minimum quantities like 
> paper 
> >books do. 
>  
> I noticed that you can buy printed, 3-hole punched versions of the 
Hero 
> Plus stuff, but these are really expensive.  Are the prices this high 
> because they are bigger than your average sourcebook, or because of 
color 
> art, or some other reason?  I know that the first Hero Plus book 
(Ultimate 
> Super Mage?) was supposed to be huge, but I don't know if that has 
been 
> true for later supplements.  Certainly it isn't true for the old 
books that 
> have been "reprinted" in electronic format. 
 
Many of the Hero Plus publications are larger than a typical "book" 
would have been, plus it's more expensive to do small print runs than 
large ones (price per book). 
 
-=>John Desmarais 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:49:08 -0700 (PDT) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Subject: The REPLY-TO thing 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 80 
 
Well, sometime this weekend (maybe even today) you can expect to see 
the REPLY-TO field cease to be populated.  There are two reasons for 
this: 
 
1.  The "nays" outweighed the "yays" ever so slightly (by one vote - 
total vote count was 27). 
 
2.  A more compelling reason though is that I believe that turning it 
off will generate less disharmony that leaving it on. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
== 
 
     John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
============================================ 
Got a question about the list?  Just ask.  Or, you can go 
look over at www.sysabend.org/champions.  I've been 
slowly posting information about the list there. 
 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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From: rcole@ezy.net (Ron Cole) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The REPLY-TO thing 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:56:45 -0400 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>Well, sometime this weekend (maybe even today) you can expect to see 
>the REPLY-TO field cease to be populated.  There are two reasons for 
>this: 
 
Bleh... I don't suppose there's an option in there to set this by subscriber? 
Or if there is other list software that we could switch to that does allow it? 
 
Ron 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "champions listserv" <champ-l@omg.org&> 
        "Eric Burns" <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 98 20:03:32  
Subject: Re: Wounded Penalties? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 70 
 
On Thu, 9 Apr 1998 18:29:00 -0400 (EDT), Eric Burns wrote: 
 
>Does anyone know whether there are penalties on succeeding 
>at physical actions while wounded in the Champs rules?  I've 
>been trying to find this in the BBB, without success.  It 
>seems to me if your down to 1 BODY, you should have a harder 
>time swinging your two-handed sword... 
 
The phrase, 'Run away!' comes to mind... 
 
But these are HEROES - they go down swinging. 
 
>If this is not in the rules, does anyone have any optional 
>rules that they use in their own campaign that they would 
>be willing to share?  Much thanks... 
 
Check out the Impairment/Disabling rules, but also note that a 
character with reduced BODY has reduced max STUN too. Further, there is 
a suggestion in the HSR that after being damaged, a character must make 
an EGO roll at a penalty equal to the BODY that got through 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "champions listserv" <champ-l@omg.org&> 
        "Eric Burns" <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu> 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 98 20:03:32  
Subject: Re: Wounded Penalties? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 71 
 
On Thu, 9 Apr 1998 18:29:00 -0400 (EDT), Eric Burns wrote: 
 
>Does anyone know whether there are penalties on succeeding 
>at physical actions while wounded in the Champs rules?  I've 
>been trying to find this in the BBB, without success.  It 
>seems to me if your down to 1 BODY, you should have a harder 
>time swinging your two-handed sword... 
 
The phrase, 'Run away!' comes to mind... 
 
But these are HEROES - they go down swinging. 
 
>If this is not in the rules, does anyone have any optional 
>rules that they use in their own campaign that they would 
>be willing to share?  Much thanks... 
 
Check out the Impairment/Disabling rules, but also note that a 
character with reduced BODY has reduced max STUN too. Further, there is 
a suggestion in the HSR that after being damaged, a character must make 
an EGO roll at a penalty equal to the BODY that got through 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:03:54 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Corporations 
To: "INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Reply-To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>>>   This one is harder to call.  I own it, of course, and it's one of my 
favorite Champions sourcebooks.  Others have loathed it, or at least not 
found it especially useful.<< 
 
The Bay City book for C:NM describes a lot of corporations in its "60 
pages about 30 things" section...how would you compare this to the 
Corporations book? 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:47:44 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< A few Combat Skill Levels with handguns or firearms in general.  A street 
cop should be a normal person built on 25 base plus 25 in disadvantages, 
plus whatever experience he may have earned. >> 
 
  Oh ye of little experience as a cop... ;)  I'm telling you, there is no way 
to build a realistically portrayed street cop in the Hero System with so few 
points, unless you are willing to simply group a bunch of unrelated skills 
under "PS: Cop." Note: I know this is done often for the sake of genre, and 
that's okay, too. I'm just simply stating that it is not accurate. That's like 
saying that a professional soldier has to be built on the same point scale. 
And don't forget, there are "Skilled Normals" which have a higher point base, 
but even they are not sufficient to accurately portray cops in the Hero 
System. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:51:50 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< Something you forgot: "things" do not cost anyone anything in an heroic- 
scale campaign.  Only supers have to spend points for "things". >> 
 
  Okay, so we're switching frm point "cost" to point "value." You guys are 
hard to keep up with. :D 
 
  Btw, the 750 Active Point patrol car was a joke, in case anyone thought 
otherwise. ;) 
 
  I love this thread! 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:56:55 EDT 
Subject: Re: San Angelo 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
  An expectant, would-be fan of San Angelo recently wrote: 
 
<< I don't mean to sound snippy, but what is the deal with San Angelo? 
 
Being a long-time Champions player (12+ yrs), I am used to product being 
eternally late, but isn't San Angelo running over 6 months late?  Come 
on--this product sounds like something that could really revitalize superhero 
gaming, and its tardiness goes beyond irritating to this buyer.  When can we 
expect supplements--6 months later? 
 
I know it sounds opposite to the above, but I have been so looking forward to 
this project. I really want you all to succeed and get product to the masses, 
and I'm afraid that gamers just won't care if things aren't released in a 
timely fashion.  I mean, what [good] is the San Angelo web page when it is 
full of unusable material?  It would make more sense to work on the book 
instead of assembling a page about a non-existent product. 
 
I wish you luck, because I am afraid you might need it.>> 
 
  I'm sorry that you're annoyed about the product's lateness, but it's due to 
circumstances beyond our control. You may not be aware that most of the 
companies in the RPG industry rely on freelancers rather than in-house staff 
to create products; even the largest publishers use freelancers to some 
extent, and the smaller publishers (most of them) use freelancers for every 
phase of production: writing, art, editing, and layout. 
 
  Whenever you use freelancers rather than employees, there will be 
circumstances beyond your control. Their full-time job intervenes, or they 
*get* a full-time job, or another task takes them longer than they expect. 
It's unfortunate, but true. We're determined to make sure this is a quality 
product, and therefore we're not going to rush it out. We've had problems with 
various freelancers on this project, but even though we've missed our initial 
schedule we're not going to hurry up and do a slap-dash job. 
 
  I understand that your annoyance is rooted in a desire for the product, so I 
hope you'll understand that no one is more eager than I to see San Angelo see 
print. But I intend to take as much time as needed to make sure the product is 
worthy of the wait. Our watchword is: "People may forget about late, but 
they'll always remember bad." We're already late and I certainly don't want to 
compound the problem by releasing the product when it's not quite ready. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
  P.S. San Angelo: City of Heroes is currently slated for release in June. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Power Question: Gas Cloud 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 10 Apr 1998 17:09:28 -0400 
Lines: 56 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Anthony Jackson writes: 
 
> 1d6 NND, continuous, area effect radius, no range, 0 END, _plus_ darkness 
> 2" radius (no range, linked to NND).  There are a couple problems with 
> this, however. 
 
You probably want Personal Immunity on that if you do not have the defense 
for the NND. 
 
> a)  Turning on this effect ends my phase.  This is not necessarily 
> horrifying, but is somewhat weird. 
 
Try adding Damage Shield to the power.  You lose the "No Range" limitation, 
but it eliminates the weirdness.  Some GMs might not allow the combination 
of Damage Shield and AoE. 
 
> b)  While darkness is specifically permitted to follow the character 
> about, attacks bought 'continuous' are not.  Should this be interpreted 
> as a general property of continuous area effect powers? 
 
Normally, Darkness is targeted.  As such, it normally cannot move.  Damage 
Shield would allow it to move, assuming the GM allows the construct in the 
first place. 
 
> c)  Generally speaking, a continuous attack does damage on the phase of 
> the person whose power it is, or when you enter the area.  Assuming (b) 
> is true, what happens when you move your area on top of someone else? 
 
This would be a GM's judgement call.  As the power stands, since it costs 
you time to maintain the power, I would say that damage is done on your 
action phases.  If you apply Damage Shield, you do not have to spend time 
to maintain it, and damage would be done on the victim' action phases. 
 
> Also, if a speedster were to run in and out of a continuous area effect 
> multiple times (say, multiple movebys) would he take damage multiple 
> times?  In addition, _when_ during your phase does the damage occur? 
 
Just for everyone's sanity, I would say he takes damage only once during 
the phase. 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 17:10:21 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Samurai 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< To be properly pedantic (because I am good at that :) a samurai is trained 
in exactly two skills: sword and poetry. This can be (and historically was!) 
as simple as WF: Sword and a few combat skill levels, and an appropriate 
poetry writing skill.  Total cost: about 10 points. >> 
 
  Oh, man. I can't let this one go by without a reply. ;) 
 
  Samurai (buke in service to a daimyo, or lord) received training in much 
more than just kenjutsu and poetry. Depending on the particular era, they also 
either received or themselves sought out training in naginatajutsu, etiquette, 
law, classical literature, cha-no-yu (Tea Ceremony), painting, kyujutsu 
(archery - a big one!), grappling in armor (not the same as Jujutsu), 
hojojutsu (cord tying), suijutsu (crossing and fighting in water/rivers), 
Buddhist or Shinto teachings (theology?), senjojutsu (battlefield strategy & 
tactics) and Go (the game), fief management (perhaps not a formalized skill, 
but an important one), monshogaku (heraldry), etc, etc, ad nauseum. 
 
  Skills were commonly tought at Buddhist temples, specialized 
academies/schools (often sponsored by the local daimyo) or within the clan 
itself. 
 
  Two skills indeed. ;) 
 
<< Spears (yari) are a footman's weapon, not a samurai's weapon; ditto for 
pole-arms (naginata), >> 
 
  Wrong. There are numerous examples of samurai fighting with spears (look at 
Shingen Tekeda's "Wind" cavalry in the late 16th century -- considered 
unstoppable, until they were stopped by a contingent of arquebus troops! 
<LOL>). 
 
  Just as common was the samurai's use of the naginata in battle, a weapon 
that was by no means considered inappropriate for the samurai. In fact, the 
naginata was probably more common to the samurai than the ashigaru (foot 
troops). 
 
  The spear was, as you point out, more common to the ashigaru (who made up 
the majority of a daimyo's army) than the samurai, but the latter were by no 
means unable to use it. 
 
  In fact, the ashigaru eventually became carriers of the daikyu or yumi 
(Japanese longbow) as well, once almost exclusively used by the samurai (until 
about the 15th century, IIRC). Did you know that the daikyu was once held in 
higher esteem and regard than the samurai's katana? 'Tis true. 
 
<< Unarmed fighting techniques would likewise be considered beneath a samurai 
-- he has his sword, after all.>> 
 
  Again, this is inaccurate. Samurai were specifically trained in unarmed (but 
still armored) grappling and fighting techniques. This was often the only way 
a samurai could survive in case he *lost* his sword in combat. Hey, it 
happens. Sometimes they would break, be dropped, etc. 
 
  Love this thread, too! :D  Man, two threads right up my alley in one day. 
I'm in heaven! 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:13:36 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Power Question: Gas Cloud 
To: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Donald Tsang writes: 
> Area Effect Damage Shield works fine; AE changes the nature of the Damage 
> Shield so it's no longer "you hit me, you take damage", but rather, "you 
> get close to me, you take damage".  At +1 1/2, it's not terrible... 
 
Hm..as you see, the reply-to header has now been removed ;).  As for your 
comment: while this is not a horribly unreasonable way to interpret area effect 
damage shield, it certainly isn't supported by the rules.... 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 17:22:40 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Knights 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>High Society 
<< Hrm...maybe. >> 
 
  A Knight was expected to know how to behave and understand (and extoll) the 
virtues of chivalry. I think High Society is very approrpiate for true 
Knights. Now knaives... they could get away without having it. ;) 
 
>KS: Dance 
<< Any idiot should be able to dance without requiring a KS. And not all 
nights were courtiers. >> 
 
  Do you know how to Waltz? Two-step? Does everyone you know know how? Just 
wondering. I certainly don't. ;) 
 
>KS: Heraldry 
<< That's what you hire a Herald for... >> 
 
  Perhaps a herald carries the standard, but wouldn't the knight need to be 
able to recognize the heraldic symbols of others? 
 
>KS: Hawking 
<< Again, not every knight flew hawks. >> 
 
  I would agree. 
 
>Animal Handler (horse and/or hawk) 
<< Yeah, from their squire days... >> 
 
  Perhaps a Familiarity would suffice, especially if it had been a long time 
since the skill was practiced? 
 
>KS: Poetry 
<< 'Any Idiot' skill. Only if you want _quality_ poetry should you have this 
skill. >> 
 
  I think that was the intent. 
 
>Perk: Knight 
<< Yep. >> 
 
  Low Justice? 
 
>possible skills include Paramedic, 
 
  Methinks Paramedic might be out of place. Perhaps not. I'm not honed up in 
my knowledge of medieval medicine. :/ 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:29:49 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Corporations 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:03 PM 4/10/1998 -0400, David B Stallard wrote: 
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>>>>   This one is harder to call.  I own it, of course, and it's one of my 
>favorite Champions sourcebooks.  Others have loathed it, or at least not 
>found it especially useful.<< 
> 
>The Bay City book for C:NM describes a lot of corporations in its "60 
>pages about 30 things" section...how would you compare this to the 
>Corporations book? 
 
   For myself, I wouldn't.  The only reason for that, though, is that I 
don't (yet) own any of the C:NM stuff.  Once I've bought all the C:NM 
books, though (which I fully do intend to do), I could give you a 
comparison. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bobg/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:32:54 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Power Question: Gas Cloud 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat writes: 
> You probably want Personal Immunity on that if you do not have the defense 
> for the NND. 
I do, and I know. 
 
> Try adding Damage Shield to the power.  You lose the "No Range" limitation, 
> but it eliminates the weirdness.  Some GMs might not allow the combination 
> of Damage Shield and AoE. 
 
Also, it doesn't seem to exactly match what damage shield does, not to mention 
being redundant with continuous. 
>  
> Normally, Darkness is targeted.  As such, it normally cannot move.  Damage 
> Shield would allow it to move, assuming the GM allows the construct in the 
> first place. 
 
A specific comment is made that darkness _can_ be created 'around' the person 
whose power it is, and _will_ then follow them about -- and that to follow 
other people about, you need 'usable against others'. 
>  
> This would be a GM's judgement call.  As the power stands, since it costs 
> you time to maintain the power, I would say that damage is done on your 
> action phases.  If you apply Damage Shield, you do not have to spend time 
> to maintain it, and damage would be done on the victim' action phases. 
 
Continuous powers do not require time to maintain -- this is the point of 
continuous.  If I want to do damage every phase in a location and am willing to 
spend phases doing that, I can do it for a +0 advantage ;). 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Michael Surbrook" <susano@access.digex.net> 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 98 21:33:20  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Thu, 9 Apr 1998 23:48:54 -0400 (EDT), Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
>On Thu, 9 Apr 1998, GoldRushG wrote: 
> 
>> << Although he won't have all the martial arts packages..., there are still a 
>> number of things he would kow and be trained in that could push his point 
>> total way about most Fantasy Hero starting character levels.>> 
>>  
>>   Like what? How to employ sheep's bladders to prevent earthquakes? ;) 
> 
>lesse: 
> 
>WF: Sword, Shield, Lance, Bow (possibly quarterstaff) 
>Riding 
>High Society 
 
So far so good. 
 
>Tactics 
 
Not to start with. 
 
>KS: Dance 
 
Doubtful 
 
>KS: Heraldry 
 
Ditto. *Differentiating* devices is *much* easier than knowing all the 
histories - lke recognising national flags. 
 
>KS: Chess 
 
Nope 
 
>PS: Knight 
 
Yes 
 
>KS: Hawking 
 
Optional; for wealthier ones. 
 
>Animal Handler (horse and/or hawk) 
 
Yes. 
 
>KS: Poetry 
 
He's a samurai, not a bard. 
 
>Oratory 
 
No. 
 
>Perk: Knight 
 
Yes. 
 
>CSLs with weapons, martial arts and to counteract DCV minus from wearing 
>armor. 
 
Not to start with. 
 
>Martial Arts: sword and shield, mounted combat, great sword, pole arm 
 
Yes, but primarily relying on Str. 
 
>Wealth - it was expensive to be a knight, which is why by the 15th C, many 
>squires stayed squires 
 
Many took to raiding. The Crusades, anyone? 
 
>possible skills include Paramedic, Bureacratics (for dealing with middle 
>ages law - knights were the law enforcement of the time), 
 
Perk: Low Justice 1 pt 
 
 and assorted 
>skills with running a manor and/or castle 
 
Left to the wife. But a PC with a castle would be a *major* player. He 
shouldn't start with one. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 17:35:09 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Standardization (Re: Genocide and Mutants) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>   Hmm... in *all* published works? Should Fantasy Hero fgollow the same 
> guidelines as Champions, or Horror Hero? Or are you talking all books within 
a 
> certain line? 
 
<<	Your 'cops' are, unfortunatly, an example of this. While I like how you 
describe them, and would do them in such detail myself; in a published work 
they should be catagorized as 'skilled normals' or 'heroic normals' and then 
all built within those limits. >> 
 
  The limits for each genre should be described, I agree. What you are failing 
to acknowledge, however, is that "Law & Order" wil include notes on cop 
campaigns, as well as different ways to write-up cops for campaigns of 
different genres. 
 
<< If the current limits are breaking down in the face of the modern 
preference for more detailed skill lists; then perhaps in 5th those limits 
should be adjusted to reflect this. >> 
 
  A good suggestion. 
 
<< But wherever those limits are, the published works should stick to them. 
House games can then modify as needed to fit their own preferences. >> 
 
  But house games can already modify as needed. Still, I think that guidelines 
are good, but constraining all published works to them may or may not be best 
for the individual product. After all, there are exceptions to every rule, and 
the Hero System rules are no exception. Er... uh... crud. Now my head hurts 
again. ;)  
 
<< Otherwise it takes a lot of work to use any given suppliment in one's game. 
Work that shouldn't exist. >> 
 
  I think there will always be some work involved in customizing a product for 
use within an existing campaign. Perhaps staying close to published standards 
would help cut down on this. 
 
<< The only rules work I should need to do would be to adjust it by the same 
ratios I adjust every published work to go from the standard to my own 
preferences. >> 
 
  That seems a reasonable expectation. 
 
  But what if the point levels of characters in a product are already in line 
with the standards, but it is the author who feels that they need to be so 
high for that particular campaign? In other words, what if the author's vision 
is that the characters *need* to be that powerful given the currently existing 
standards? Then what? Do you simply delete the character because the concept 
can't be fit neatly into the established point limits? 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: SPD Rules [Long] 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 17:19:30 -0500 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Here are Puma's house rules for SPD.  
Puma will now hide under rock for avoid flames! ^_^; 
 
		Speed: 
			Speed is not limited to a maximum of 12; it can 
have any value. The cost does not change for speeds over 12. With a 
speed above 12, a character will act more than once (have more than one 
phase) in a given segment. When a character has a speed higher than 12, 
it acts at its speed, and then again at its SPD-12, then SPD-24, etc. 
until what's left is 12 or less. Additional speed is figured via the 
speed chart, with the segments determined by SPD, SPD-12, etc. 
 
		Example: 
			Shasti has a speed of 20 and has phases as shown 
below: 
 
Segments:	1	2	3	4	5	6	7 
8	9	10	11	12 
Speed 20:	X	X X	X X	X	X X	X X	X 
X X	X X	X	X X	X X 
 
			On segment one, Shasti has one phase and acts 
before anyone with a SPD less than 20. On segment two, she has two 
phases. This means that she has an entire phase to act before anyone 
else (that has only one phase on that segment) can act! If another 
character acted twice that segment, the one with the highest SPD would 
go first (as usual). For her second phase on that segment, she acts as 
if she was 20 - 12 = SPD 8. Therefore, someone with a SPD of 9 would get 
to use their phase in that segment before Shasti could use her second 
phase in that segment. 
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
	"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"  
					- Joan of Arc's .sig 
     Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Power Question: Gas Cloud 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 10 Apr 1998 18:58:30 -0400 
Lines: 45 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
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Anthony Jackson writes: 
 
> Also, it doesn't seem to exactly match what damage shield does, 
 
The way I see it, the two advantages, Area of Effect and Damage Shield, are 
not really exclusive.  Damage Shield allows you to use the NND in a vaguely 
defensive fashion -- no attack roll, constant effect, hits anyone that hits 
you.  AoE does not negate the Damage Shield effect; instead, it has the 
effect of expanding the definition of what it means to attack you to 
include "coming within so many hexes of you". 
 
> not to mention being redundant with continuous. 
 
That is an interesting point... if Continuing Charges requires that an 
instant power be made Continuous, should Damage Shield have the same 
requirement?  Or is this subsumed as part of the trade-off with the "free" 
No Range limitation? 
 
[...] 
 
> Continuous powers do not require time to maintain -- this is the point of 
> continuous. 
 
A Continuous power used offensively requires a half-phase action (I would 
want to double-check the BBB to be sure whether or not it counts as an 
attack action) to maintain it, and it requires line of sight to the target 
of the power (moot for this particular power).  If you wish to "detach" the 
power, you also need Uncontrolled. 
 
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:37:01 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  Hero Plus printed versions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
In a message dated 4/10/98 11:09:49 AM, you wrote: 
 
>I noticed that you can buy printed, 3-hole punched versions of the Hero 
>Plus stuff, but these are really expensive.  Are the prices this high 
>because they are bigger than your average sourcebook, or because of color 
>art, or some other reason?  I know that the first Hero Plus book (Ultimate 
>Super Mage?) was supposed to be huge, but I don't know if that has been 
>true for later supplements.  Certainly it isn't true for the old books that 
>have been "reprinted" in electronic format. 
 
These prices represent the added cost of taking the book to a local copy store 
and getting a copy made (double-sided, 3-hole drilled). We don't make any 
additional profit on those copies; we offer them as an added service to our 
customers. 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games  
 
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From: "potroast@theoven" <darkwraith@worldnet.att.net> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:46:26 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> << How the hell did Joe Cop spend 200 points anyways? ...once you've 
bought 
> PS: Police Officer and KS: Police Procedures and mayyyybe KS: Law, a 
couple 
> weapon FAMs and Combat Driving, what have you got left to buy? >> 
>  
>   There is KS: Civil Law 8-, AK: Patrol Area, Forensic Science 8-, and 
much, 
> much more. Again, this is not intended, necessarily, to be the write-up 
you 
> *must* use for your NPC cops. I'm talking a real-world big city cop 
expressed 
> in Hero System terms. 
>  
>   Steve Peterson, Bruce Harlick, Steve Long and a host of other Hero folk 
have 
> seen some of this material and I assure you that none of them said "Whoa! 
Too 
> many points! Cut them in half!" <LOL> 
>  
> << Joe Cop is a skilled normal; the higher-ups (detectives, etc.) 
shouldn't 
> break out beyond 100 points IMHO. >> 
>  
>   As per the existing Hero System guidelines, no, they shouldn't. 
However, 
> we're breaking those boundaries because they are not realistic when 
exploring 
> cops as full blown characters. Again, think of this books as "The 
Ultimate Law 
> Enforcer" if it helps to keep it in perspective. ;) 
>  
> << Look at it this way; if Joe Cop is built on 200 points, if my 
character 
> wants to play a Cop who gained super powers, he'll have...50 points worth 
of 
> super-powers and attributes. >> 
>  
>   That's fine and well, but this book is designed for more than just a 
four- 
> color Champions campaign. And the players do not have to take our 
published 
> materials as mandatory. It will be a "realistically accurate" portrayal 
of law 
> enforcement in Hero System terms. 
>  
>   So I suppose you think that a Fast Draw modifier for different holster 
types 
> is excessieve, too? Sheesh. Good thing I didn't tell him about the 750 
Pt. 
> police cruisers! ;) 
>  
>   Mark @ GRG 
 
I do believe that there is a everymans' skill roll for info that the char 
is expected to know you, where refering to KS: police procedures, that 
covers a lot of ground.  If you insist on specific skills for each 
knowledge, image writing up a tax accountant (give Dr D a run for his 
money) how about your average fast food worker "I know how to drop fryes in 
32 different restraunts KS fryes) "Fear me now, Legion of Doom" What it 
boils down to is that once you assign a N/PC to cophood, you do not need to 
write up everything unless you want the char to be better in that field, 
then most.  That should go for most PS's 
 
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From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:51:39 -0400 (EDT) 
Organization: VTSFFC 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
OK, so I'd prefer to also throw in a plain ACSII text version, too..... 
 
                                            Daniel Pawtowski 
 
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Subject: Re: COM rules [Really Long!] 
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 98 20:54:24 -0400 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
To: "Hero Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Bob Greenwade bob.greenwade@klock.com 4/9/98 7:32 PM 
 
>   No flames from this corner.  I like it.  It's finally something concrete 
>that can be done with COM. 
 
I agree! 
 
>   I'd only make two substantial alterations.  The first is that the 
>attacker has to declare a COM Attack to do it, unless the target has some 
>Psychological Limitation or other reason for an automatic effect. 
 
<snip> 
 
In a few games I've been in, we've used casual PRE, once PRE gets high  
enough 
its a constant attack whether its willed or not.  I'd suggest that COM  
could 
be treated the same way.  In both cases, a normal never has more than a  
2d6 
attack causual attack (1/2 of 20 = 10 AP) that a normal level of PRE or  
EGO  
easily overcomes, but some heros have high enough stats that a casual  
attack 
does matter.  A 30 PRE would give a 15 AP or 3d6 attack which would have  
a  
minor effect on a normal in normal situation, etc.  Admittedly, we usually 
didn't roll for these effects but just figure them in as story telling  
benchmarks. 
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:13:27 -0400 
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Re:  Re: More book reviews, please 
To: "INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id XAA19604 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> Acrobat refuses to print my copy of Eye for an Eye.  Any page with a 
> picture and headings only prints the heading.  You can't export the text 
> from Acrobat in any meaningful way, either.  (And I do have the lastest 
> copies of Win 95, Acrobat, and printer drivers for my Epson Stylus Color 
> 600.)  I will never buy another Hero Plus product until it is available 
in 
> another (read: better) format. 
 
I had a major problem trying to get TUSM to print out: the illustrations 
would print fine but any and all text was fuzzed out like the horizontal 
hold was screwed up. What I finally discovered (by accident) was that if I 
exported the pages to by fax software and printed it from there it would 
print fine (albeit in black-and-white). Thus I was able to print it out in 
a roundabout fashion, but it took a LONG time. I have no idea if the 
problem was in the Hero product, the Acrobat software or my printer driver. 
 
Jeff Reid 
Morfhis@compuserve.com 
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm 
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:13:36 -0400 
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Subject: SPD Rules [Long] 
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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>               Speed: 
>                       Speed is not limited to a maximum of 12; it can 
> have any value. The cost does not change for speeds over 12. With a 
> speed above 12, a character will act more than once (have more than one 
> phase) in a given segment. 
 
I've actually considered something similar for my campaign, although I've 
never gone to the effort of codifying it simply because I don't think any 
of my players would be willing to spend the huge amount of points it would 
take to implement it. The highest Speed I've ever given a villain is 10 (a 
sword wielding speedster lifted from a V&V supplement); other than that one 
case, I don't think I've ever gone higher than 6 or 7. 
 
Have any players in Puma's game ever bought a Speed higher than 12? 
 
Jeff Reid 
Morfhis@compuserve.com 
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: FAQ/POC update 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 10 Apr 1998 23:43:34 -0400 
Lines: 24 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Just a minor update to the FAQ/POC to reflect the recent changes in the 
Universe as we know it. 
 
HTML version: 
<URL:http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/champions.html> 
text version: 
<URL:ftp://ftp.ccs.neu.edu/pub/people/ratinox/champ/champions.faq> 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
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Kr9wnAcqvh+hSMW3rUTAcy9widaGKhV7+skcwFD4hTjrxl+2lOPHcUDkHjEVoTgm 
nsM1sewWctd0B1azDWbD3LzR6uzvNS1gF6a0ro2ljRde0Gb8/kx/obsBxo4tTHu0 
toYr8uxyDis= 
=drwU 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:14:03 -0700 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Organization: Satan's Children 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Reply-To headers 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> > > That's a silly reason to give up valuable Hero System discussion.... 
> > 
> > You are right, it is silly.  So is a mailing list that says I have to go 
> > out of my way to properly direct my replies.  I have better things to do 
> > with my time. 
>  
>         Which is why it's easier to have the reply to go to the list, thus 
> allowing the message to automaticly go to the list, and only the list. Which 
> can be changed manually on those rare messages that don't go to the list. 
 
   I get the impression that apparently, Mr. Rat replies to individuals 
more often that to the list, thus thinks that to accomodate him 
properly, the Reply To: header should reflect this proportion.  But I 
also get the impression that MOST participants on a mailing list fully 
intend to reply to messages from the list TO the list at large MOST of 
the time;  I know I do.  This idea is insinuated by the comments of some 
who ask for specific information and invite respondents to answer via 
private e-mail to save on list bandwidth.  If individual replies were 
the norm, the list would have fewer that 60 messages a day, and it would 
be redundant to mention private e-mail replies in request postings. 
 
   As for me, I really don't care, since I have an Address Book with the 
List address easily accessible.  However, I would VOTE for a reply to 
the list default.  And as far as rejected user mail bouncing to the 
list, I would think that the moderator should be able to unsubscribe the 
appropriate user as soon as he notices it happening, leaving the culprit 
responsible for resubscribing (and taking measures to prevent such an 
occurence again, possibly as a prerequisite of resubscribing...).  In 
fact, responsible participants often unsubscribe from the list before 
extended abscences to avoid just such an occurence, and resubscribe when 
they return. 
 
--  
   "SPOOOOOOOONN!!" 
 
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Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 23:27:38 -0700 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Organization: Satan's Children 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Reply-To headers and Junk Threads 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> Maybe I am different from most people on the list.  I end up getting 
> my 100+ champ-l emails, and then I have to sort the mailbox by 
> subject...primarily so I can summarily delete 75 of those messages 
> that are basically junk-threads.  Call me whatever you want, but I 
> think that this is just a waste. 
 
   I do exactly the same thing, but it has nothing to do with "junk" 
threads.  Once I read a few posts of a particular topic, often I decide 
that it is not of interest to me, so I delete the thread.  Besides, why 
do you assume that people will respond privately more often with the old 
ReplyTo:?  I saw just as much traffic and just as many Junk Threads when 
the RepltTo: line had to be personally directed to the list.  Generally, 
people in a discussion group (which this is) tend to want to be heard 
(read) by everyone, so reply to the list by habit, if not actually by 
default.  I really think that the difference in traffic is negligible, 
bacause most people will reply to the list bacause it is a list 
discussion, not simply because it is convenient. 
 
   And yes, I responded to the list, not privately, because others 
besides you may wish to debate or support the point I have just 
presented. 
 
--  
   "SPOOOOOOOONN!!" 
 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 02:40:51 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< I do believe that there is a everymans' skill roll for info that the char 
is expected to know, where refering to KS: police procedures, that covers a 
lot of ground.  If you insist on specific skills for each knowledge... What it 
boils down to is that once you assign a N/PC to cophood, you do not need to 
write up everything unless you want the char to be better in that field, then 
most. >> 
 
  For some aspects of the law enforcement character PS works fine. For 
example, report writing, using the police radio and knowing the different 
codes used on the radio (unit call signs, event codes, how NOT to use voice 
inflection or a variance in tone or to yell, etc.), reading a Thomas Bros. map 
book, flipping on the siren, booking a prisoner into the jail, the proper way 
to put on handcuffs, department policies (on use of force, prisoner transport, 
etc.), and so on... 
 
  However, there are some areas in which PS: Peace Officer simply does not 
cover it. There are some skills which are clearly defined as separate skills 
which are more than appropriate for officers. These include (minimum 
expenditure noted at the end of each entry): 
 
  Area/City Knowledge: Knowing your patrol area better than the average 
citizen is darned important. This would include knowing crime trends; knowing 
the common business and residential targets for robbery, burglary, and home 
invasion; knowing which streets are under repair so you don't suddenly find 
yourself on a dead end when rolling Code 3 to a rape in progress; being able 
to give good directions to citizens when asked, etc. (2 Pts) 
 
  Bureaucratics: Law enforcement is a bureaucracy, like any other government 
entity. Cops work in this environment and deal with citizen complaints about 
it routinely. Need I say more? (3 Pts) 
 
  Combat Skill Levels: Part of the law enforcement profession is regular 
qualification on the range. Some would argue that this just maintains 
fundamental skill levels with the primary weapon (the sidearm). However, over 
time, it gradually adds to an officer's level of comfort with said weapon as 
well as their prooficiency, IMO. Plus, many cops shoot with more frequency 
than the required minimum. (2 Pts for "+1 w/Personal Sidearm") 
 
  Combat Driving: If anyone thinks cops don't qualify for this skill they are 
kidding themselves. Our local EVOC or the Emergency vehicle Ops Course 
(includes skidpan training, pursuit driving, defensive driving, and an 
obstacle course) is a required part of the basic academy. Every patrol officer 
I've known has been involved in a number of high speed pursuits within the 
last few months. (3 Pts) 
 
  Concealment: Cops make arrest. Part of the arrest procedure is the search. 
There are also building searches for suspects, searches for bombs, probation 
searches, area searches (for suspects, bodies, evidence, etc.)... There are a 
number of different types of searches, but they usually come down to one 
thing: "...find things that other people have hidden." (3 Pts) 
 
  Conversation: Cops interrogate suspects. They question witnesses. In both 
cases, some subjects are less than cooperative. Some play games Some are 
flippin' nuts. In all three cases (and others) the Conversation Skill is 
appropriate. (1 Pt Familiarity) 
 
  Criminology: IMO, peace officers by and large "know how to look for clues, 
dust for fingerprints, examine evidence,... search through files, and so on." 
I will concede that not all cops know how to do ballistics tests and examine 
records, but as this is a catch all skill for an "investigator," it is very 
appropriate for cops, even if only at the Familiarity (8-) level. (1 Pt) 
 
  Deduction: Some GMs use this skill and some don't. However, "this is the 
classic detective's skill." However, it allows other skills as complimentary, 
and it is deserving of at least a Familiarity level for basic cops. (1 Pt) 
 
  Forensic Medicine: I'm not advocating a full blown 12- or 14- here, but a 
Familiarity is appropriate given the description: "...make inferences from a 
corpse about the cause of death, how long the individual has been dead, and so 
forth." I concede that cops should not be able to perform an autopsy, but this 
is a bit of an inclusive skill. I suppose it could be argued that Criminology 
would suffice, but I disagree. (1 Pt) 
 
  Knowledge: This covers a variety of subjects that can be bought for the 
officer. Remember, "Players define how specific their Knowledge Skills are. 
The more general the Knowledge Skill, the less the character will know about 
specifics." Again, some GMs might prefer to lump many of these together into 
one skill, but they *can* be broken down in to separate and completely 
legitimate skills, such as Criminal Law/Penal Code, Civil Law (familiarity 
only), Criminal Groups, Law Enforcement World, Local Criminals/MOs, Police 
Procedures/Dept Policy, Speed Estimation (of moving vehicles), 
Radar/"Speedgun" Operation (the theory and "hows & whys" of radar; very good 
for court), Patrol Area/Beat, City/County Knowledge, Narcotics/Drugs, and so 
on. This is probably the area most likely to spur debate. (6 Pts) 
 
  Martial Arts: Using the UMA, I wrote up the "Arrest Control" Martial Arts 
Style. It's an accurate simulation (IMO) of some of the common tactics and 
maneuvers (based on Bob Koga's style) taught to many peace officers across 
this country. This is one of the costlier items on the list, and includes "Use 
style with Baton/PR-24." What's a PR-24? Well, that would fall under "Weapon 
Familiarity." ;)  (10 Pts) 
 
  Paramedic: This is a no-brainer. Cops are, by law (at least in California), 
considered "first responders" and this is required training. (3 Pts) 
 
  Persuasion: Cops routinely have to deal with situations that don't justify 
the use of force. Instead they have to "convince, persuade, or influence 
individuals." Of course, this *does* include the occasional lie, although for 
good reasons -- "white lies," like convincing the mental subject that you'll 
bring their invisible puppy along, too (get the book to find out more). (1 Pt) 
 
  Professional Skill: No argument that this is a requirement. However, the 
specific job title should reflect the character's employer and status. For 
example, I suggest different PSs, like: Federal Agent, Peace Officer, Police 
Officer, Deputy Sheriff, USAF Security Policeman, USA/USMC MP, USN Shore 
Patrol/Master at Arms, USPS Inspector, and so on. Sure, there is no 
appreciable difference between them in game terms, but we're talking flavor 
here. ;)  (2 Pts) 
 
  Range Skill Levels: Same comments as the "Combat Skill Levels" above. (2 
Pts) 
 
  Science Skills: As a general rule this one os not applicable, EXCEPT for 
Criminal Psychology or just plain vanilla Psychology. Now, I'm not suggesting 
that all cops are certified counselors, but if you've ever been on a ride-a- 
long you know that that's what they spend a LOT of their time on the job 
doing... counseling. I'm serious. Cops have to diffuse situations and deal 
with issues that the people involved are unable to deal with. I could go on 
and on about this, but suffice it to say that a Familiarity in either or both 
of the aforementioned skills is very appropriate for cops. (1 Pt) 
 
  Shadowing: This is more of a skill that is acquired through "on-the-job 
training," but I think it's appropriate for cops. Yes, for basic patrol cops. 
Although it's often difficult to be sneaky while following a suspect car while 
you're in a big white Caprice with a red and blue light-bar on the roof, but 
hey... that's a modifier not something that rules out possessing the skill. ;) 
(1 Pts) 
 
  Stealth: I assure you that trying to enter a building to which you've 
responded to a silent burgalry alarm requires a lot of guts... and stealth. It 
doesn't pay to noisily set up a permiter on a silent robbery alarm at a fast 
food joint, risking that the suspect will spot you and take hostages. Stealth 
comes in handy quite often on the job. And yes, it is part of training. (3 
Pts) 
 
  Streetwise: Another OJT skill, primarily, but even rookie officers should 
have a Familiarity in this. Other Packages receive increases to the Skill, 
however (Detectives, Veteran Officers, etc.). (1 Pt) 
 
  Systems Operation: Perhaps a bit of a stretch, but this could be applied to 
police radios, radar/speed-detecting equipment, and the like. This one's a 
wobbler. ;) (0 Pts) 
 
  Tactics: A Familiarity in this skill in not unreasonable, given the training 
that most officers receive in "crowd control" and handling riots (be they on 
the street or in a jail/prison). (1 Pt) 
 
  Transport Familiarity: Some GMs don't require this skill to be purchased for 
common vehicles (cars, motorcycles), and some do. I list it here in any case. 
(0 Pts, Everyman Skill) 
 
  Weapon Familiarity: Common weapons (from the list) in use by patrol officers 
include: (under Common Melee Weapons) Straight Baton or PR-24 (side-handled 
baton/similar to a tonfa); (Small Arms Groups) Pistols and Shoulder Arms 
(shotguns). Of course, SWAT members get a lot more goodies to be familiar 
with. ;) (3 Pts) 
 
  Weaponsmith (Slugthrowers): Another debatable one. It includes "maintaining 
and repairing" the weapon. Perhaps a Familiarity is in order here? I believe 
so, but I would limit it to only those with which the officer already has the 
WF. (1 Pt) 
 
  Well, that's the basics, and I did not include skills from the various 
"upgrade" Packages (like SWAT, Detective, etc.). Assuming only the 
minimum/base costs for these skills, the total so far is 52 Pts. 
 
  What about Perks? Does not a typical patrol cop have a few neighborhood or 
departmental contacts? (0 Pts min) 
 
  Btw, I have written a new Perk: Fringe benefit -- Local/State Police Powers. 
And for those who think I am just out to rack up a tubload of point costs, 
this Perk *includes* the right to carry a concealed weapon off duty (i.e., no 
extra Pts for Weapon Permit or Concealed Weapon Permit). (2 Pts) 
 
  And I also did not include a 1 Pt "License to practice Profession," despite 
the fact that officers must be certified by the state and possess a "Peace 
Officers Standards of Training (POST)" certificate to be hired...  ;) 
 
  Well, that's a total of 54 Pts for just the bare bones basic Skills and 
Perks, and does not include Stats, other specialty Packages or any equipment 
(if you have the character pay for those; some campaigns/genres don't require 
it) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: "potroast@theoven" <darkwraith@worldnet.att.net> 
To: "GoldRushG" <GoldRushG@aol.com&> <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 02:21:43 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
---------- 
> From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
> Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
> Date: Saturday, April 11, 1998 1:40 AM 
>  
> << I do believe that there is a everymans' skill roll for info that the 
char 
> is expected to know, where refering to KS: police procedures, that covers 
a 
> lot of ground.  If you insist on specific skills for each knowledge... 
What it 
> boils down to is that once you assign a N/PC to cophood, you do not need 
to 
> write up everything unless you want the char to be better in that field, 
then 
> most. >> 
>  
>   For some aspects of the law enforcement character PS works fine. For 
> example, report writing, using the police radio and knowing the different 
> codes used on the radio (unit call signs, event codes, how NOT to use 
voice 
> inflection or a variance in tone or to yell, etc.), reading a Thomas 
Bros. map 
> book, flipping on the siren, booking a prisoner into the jail, the proper 
way 
> to put on handcuffs, department policies (on use of force, prisoner 
transport, 
> etc.), and so on... 
>  
>   However, there are some areas in which PS: Peace Officer simply does 
not 
> cover it. There are some skills which are clearly defined as separate 
skills 
> which are more than appropriate for officers. These include (minimum 
> expenditure noted at the end of each entry): 
>  
I am willing to concede that  a well-rounded peace officer has those 
skills, a vast majority are taught at a police, or other appropropriate, 
academy making them everyman (read 8-/ 0 points) with modifers on often  
repeated tasks.  The rest of their skills and levels are experience.   
 
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Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 01:14:12 -0700 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
To: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Standardization (Re: Genocide and Mutants) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> << Otherwise it takes a lot of work to use any given suppliment in one's game. 
> Work that shouldn't exist. >> 
>  
>   I think there will always be some work involved in customizing a product for 
> use within an existing campaign. Perhaps staying close to published standards 
> would help cut down on this. 
 
	Yeah it would. 
 
> << The only rules work I should need to do would be to adjust it by the same 
> ratios I adjust every published work to go from the standard to my own 
> preferences. >> 
>  
>   That seems a reasonable expectation. 
>  
>   But what if the point levels of characters in a product are already in line 
> with the standards, but it is the author who feels that they need to be so 
> high for that particular campaign? In other words, what if the author's vision 
> is that the characters *need* to be that powerful given the currently existing 
> standards? Then what? Do you simply delete the character because the concept 
> can't be fit neatly into the established point limits? 
>  
	No problem. Here's how I was seeing this: 
 
The publisher sets a standard series of power level guidelines. 
Something like this (in terms of supers, other genre's would have their 
own lists I presume): 
 
Sidekick level = A 
Low Power = B 
Street level hero = C (points, or DC/CV/Pd&Ed/etc) 
Standard Super = D 
Powerful Super = E 
World saver = F 
Galaxy saver = G 
'beyonder class' = H 
 
	So, as a writer, let's say I have a villian 'Dr. Conquest' who's 
supposed to be a would be world conqurer. When I ajust him from the way 
I've used him in my games to the published format, I look at the power 
level guidlines for catagory 'F' and make him equivalent to this. 
 
	Then another author makes an NPC hero team who are a bunch of street 
level vigilantes, but in his house game, he uses about 6 times the 
number of points I do in my house game. But he considers these hero's to 
still be low power street level, after all, even the normals in his game 
are built this way. 
	So when adjusting his work for publication, rather than send it off as 
it appears in his game, he adjusts that team to match the guidlines of 
catagory 'C'. 
	This way, when the consumer goes out and buys both books, he instantly 
knows how Dr. Conquest SHOULD compare to that hero team. So that if his 
own game uses an entirely diferent idea of what is needed at each power 
level, he at least knows where each of these published NPC's should 
fall. 
 
--  
Rook			    
 __ 
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html  Super Hero Links Page 
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/              Super Hero Role 
Playing 
 
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: global stat alteration 
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 18:37:33 +1000 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
huh. That's the best subject line i can think of- what i'm on about 
is grabbing all the pc's and making uniform changes for some reason- 
like say they spend a few adventures on a low gravity world, or maybe 
in another dimension where they don't have to eat. I'm interested in  
wether people make these changes on a stat level(higher str for low 
gravity) 
, or externalise it(lower object weight), or ignore it. One example i did 
of this 
is a fantasy campaign that evolved into a chamions setting after the heroes 
 
crossed worlds. Turns out their race is slightly bigger and more dense than 
 
'normal' humans, an adjustment which put them up to superheroic level 
power. Has anyone else done this sort of thing, and if so, what was the  
'time frame' involved? 
  	 
 
 
 
 
 
 
"Enslave humanity willya?" 
 
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Standardization (Re: Genocide and Mutants) 
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 18:45:16 +1000 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
I'd put a limit on points totals, and maybe the type of powers useable  
(no stopsigns for street level, ect), but i think active points limits 
would be a bad idea. Dunno if anyone's suggested them, but i  
think points totals are sufficient for pulling things into line.  
 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-3,5,7-9,17-19 
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts) 
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 09:54:12 EDT 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> Acrobat refuses to print my copy of Eye for an Eye.  Any page with a 
> picture and headings only prints the heading.  You can't export the 
text 
> from Acrobat in any meaningful way, either.  (And I do have the lastest 
> copies of Win 95, Acrobat, and printer drivers for my Epson Stylus 
Color 
> 600.)  I will never buy another Hero Plus product until it is available 
in 
> another (read: better) format. 
 
The only problem I've had printing Eye for an Eye (other than punching 
holes in the pages) is an occasional streakiness, and that's probably 
because I'm breaking in a rechargable inkjet cartridge. (I'm certain my 
b&w printer would make a hash of the full color cover, but I wasn't 
really planning to print that anyway.)  Of course, I'm also running 
Windows 3.11, which might be part of the difference -- I would go into 
some of the comments I've heard about Windows 95, but I believe this is a 
G-rated list :) . 
 
Leah 
 
_____________________________________________________________________ 
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. 
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com 
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] 
 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,4,6,8-9,16-18 
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts) 
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 09:54:13 EDT 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>  Persuasion: Cops routinely have to deal with situations that don't 
justify 
>the use of force. Instead they have to "convince, persuade, or influence 
>individuals." Of course, this *does* include the occasional lie, 
although for 
>good reasons -- "white lies," like convincing the mental subject that 
you'll 
>bring their invisible puppy along, too (get the book to find out more). 
(1 Pt) 
 
There's a story in one of the America's Dumbest Criminals books that's a 
great example of this.  I loaned that book to a friend, but IIRC a patrol 
car was called to a nursing home because a 90+ year old World War vet 
hadn't been taking his medication and got a bit wild -- not violent, just 
noisy.  I'd argue the police sergeant who showed up had the full skill, 
not just familiarity, but by the time someone is ready for the sergeant's 
exam they've racked up some XPs. 
 
Leah 
 
_____________________________________________________________________ 
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. 
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com 
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] 
 
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Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 09:01:49 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>  Combat Skill Levels: Part of the law enforcement profession is regular 
>qualification on the range. Some would argue that this just maintains 
>fundamental skill levels with the primary weapon (the sidearm). However, over 
>time, it gradually adds to an officer's level of comfort with said weapon as 
>well as their prooficiency, IMO. Plus, many cops shoot with more frequency 
>than the required minimum. (2 Pts for "+1 w/Personal Sidearm") 
 
I won't strongly contest the presence of this Skill, but since you said 
"over time, it gradually adds", doesn't that imply that the baseline cop 
will *not* have CSLs, placing this into in the category of things that 
should be added on later? 
 
>  Knowledge: This covers a variety of subjects that can be bought for the 
>officer. Remember, "Players define how specific their Knowledge Skills are. 
>The more general the Knowledge Skill, the less the character will know about 
>specifics." Again, some GMs might prefer to lump many of these together into 
>one skill, but they *can* be broken down in to separate and completely 
>legitimate skills, such as Criminal Law/Penal Code, Civil Law (familiarity 
>only), Criminal Groups, Law Enforcement World, Local Criminals/MOs, Police 
>Procedures/Dept Policy, Speed Estimation (of moving vehicles), 
>Radar/"Speedgun" Operation (the theory and "hows & whys" of radar; very good 
>for court), Patrol Area/Beat, City/County Knowledge, Narcotics/Drugs, and so 
>on. This is probably the area most likely to spur debate. (6 Pts) 
 
I don't think I'd give Officer Everyman a Speed Estimation ability; if I 
did, I'd base it on a Talent rather than a KS.  Bob Greenwade uses a 
generic Talent called "Exact Measure" in TUSV, which is defined when bought 
as being applicable to distance, angle, mass, velocity, light levels or 
whatever.  If I thought every cop needed to have this ability, I'd give 
them a limited version of this (Approximate Measure) applicable to the 
vehicle velocity.  However it's modeled, it sounds more like something you 
get from experience, though.  Perhaps the GM should award bonus XPTS over 
the course of the campaign in the form of abilities like this that "every 
good cop" will automatically learn in the course of performing his normal 
duties. 
 
>  Streetwise: Another OJT skill, primarily, but even rookie officers should 
>have a Familiarity in this. Other Packages receive increases to the Skill, 
>however (Detectives, Veteran Officers, etc.). (1 Pt) 
 
Another good candidate for Bonus XPTS.  I agree the rookie should start 
with a FAM, but  any cop worth his salt will build this into a Skill over 
time.  I'd find this obvious enough that as a GM I'd set aside 1 XP every 
few adventures and eventually just award the cop PC a full-blown Streetwise 
Skill. 
 
>  Weaponsmith (Slugthrowers): Another debatable one. It includes "maintaining 
>and repairing" the weapon. Perhaps a Familiarity is in order here? I believe 
>so, but I would limit it to only those with which the officer already has the 
>WF. (1 Pt) 
 
The rules are a little vague on this, but I generally assume a WF covers 
the knowledge of routine cleaning and maintenance.  Weaponsmith allows 
designing, building and ful repair of the weapon type, which seems too 
much.  I expect a character with WF: small arms to know how to clean the 
weapon and clear a jam. 
 
>  What about Perks? Does not a typical patrol cop have a few neighborhood or 
>departmental contacts? (0 Pts min) 
 
Acquired during his time on the beat, yes.  Not on his first day out of the 
academy. 
 
>  And I also did not include a 1 Pt "License to practice Profession," despite 
>the fact that officers must be certified by the state and possess a "Peace 
>Officers Standards of Training (POST)" certificate to be hired...  ;) 
 
I generally assume that to be included under the PS if the profession is 
one that requires licensing, bonding or other certification to practice. 
Not much point in being qualified for the job if you can't prove that you are. 
 
Personally, in many cases I'd be happy to play using the PS: Cop and not 
much else, but only if the GM agreed that the PS covers 95% of what you've 
listed above.  I think most GMs would balk at the PS coverage being that 
extensive, in which case I'd have to go with something much like what 
you've described above. 
 
Damon 
 
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From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Acrobat 
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 10:10:13 -0400 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Importance: Normal 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> Acrobat refuses to print my copy of Eye for an Eye.  Any page with a 
> picture and headings only prints the heading.  You can't export the text 
> from Acrobat in any meaningful way, either.  (And I do have the latest 
> copies of Win 95, Acrobat, and printer drivers for my Epson Stylus Color 
> 600.) 
 
As a person who works in the printer industry (I write embedded software for 
printer controllers, and work closely with the Printer Driver people) I 
would guess your not having an Acrobat problem, so much as one of the 
following: 
 
1) Even though you have the latest driver for your printer, your problem is 
most likely a printer driver problem rather than an Acrobat problem. 
Granted though, any Adobe software product (and Quark Express and a few 
others, for that matter) tend to cause more problems with printer drivers 
than anything else. 
 
2) For that matter, you may need more RAM in your printer to print complex 
pages ... though this is usually more of a PCL or Postscript sort of 
problem.  I'm not sure what your Epson Print driver is emitting.  If it's 
GDI, then RAM on the printer should not be a problem.  On the other hand, if 
the printer rips the page image, this could easily be the real problem. 
 
At work, I haven't had problems printing with Acrobat for several years now 
... the last time I did, it was a problem with our printer drivers, which 
was fixed.  At home (Brother HL730 laser printer with 2MB of RAM), Acrobat 
has always worked fine with one exception.  When I printed the "Free Fuzion 
Game", the black boxes with page numbers on the second page printed out only 
as black boxes.  Definitely a printer driver problem!! 
 
Over all, I have had more problems (work and home) printing out HTML!!  A 
lot of times, I end up with a partial line of text on the bottom of one 
page, with the rest being on the top of the next page.  I'm not sure if this 
is a printer driver problem or not (or maybe because I'm sometimes printing 
from a browser) ... but I do know that HTML can give printer drivers fits 
too ... so that's not a good solution. 
 
Anyway, call technical help for your printer, and tell them your having 
trouble printing with Acrobat.  They may already be aware of it, and have a 
solution for you!! 
 
			~ Mike 
 
 
 
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From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net> 
To: "Hero Games" <HeroGames@aol.com&> <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Hero Plus printed versions 
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 10:20:38 -0400 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>>I noticed that you can buy printed, 3-hole punched versions of the Hero 
>>Plus stuff, but these are really expensive.  Are the prices this high 
>>because they are bigger than your average sourcebook, or because of color 
>>art, or some other reason? 
> 
> These prices represent the added cost of taking the book to a 
> local copy store 
> and getting a copy made (double-sided, 3-hole drilled). We don't make any 
> additional profit on those copies; we offer them as an added 
> service to our 
> customers. 
 
On thing that annoyed me about "The Ultimate Super Mage" was that there 
really wasn't enough room on the inside margin (duplexed) for 3-hole drilled 
paper.  I suppose it works okay if you want to put it into a three ring 
notebook, but if you want to put it into a folder/cover or use a simple 
binding system like you can get at Office Max, the text is just too close to 
the edge of the page!!! 
 
On the other hand, the outside margins are _huge_.  I suppose they needed to 
be to fit that large scroll around the page number.  It would have been much 
nicer if the scroll had been smaller, and the whole image moved maybe a 
quarter of an inch toward the outside margin. 
 
It would have also been nicer if the graphic on the front page had been a 
little higher resolution.  It looked fine on the screen, but is pretty 
grainy when you print it out.  I can live with the grainy graphics through 
the rest of the book. 
 
		~ Mike 
 
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Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 09:31:35 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx) 
Subject: Re: San Angelo 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>  I understand that your annoyance is rooted in a desire for the product, so I 
>hope you'll understand that no one is more eager than I to see San Angelo see 
>print. But I intend to take as much time as needed to make sure the product is 
>worthy of the wait. Our watchword is: "People may forget about late, but 
>they'll always remember bad." We're already late and I certainly don't want to 
>compound the problem by releasing the product when it's not quite ready. 
> 
>  Mark @ GRG 
> 
>  P.S. San Angelo: City of Heroes is currently slated for release in June. 
 
Been a while since I posted here, but I just wanted to say Thanks for the  
release date.  I've been bothering my local store on a weekly basis about  
San Angelo.  I'd prefer a late book with quality then monthly books worth  
nothing in quality or game value that counterdict each other at every turn.   
Keep up the good work.  I'll have to say I am one of those people who will  
forget late, (actually isn't that standard for gaming :)  ) but I won't  
forget or forgive a bunch of hype and then shoddy material.  Once bitten,  
twice shy sort of thing.  Well, thanks once again.  Keep up the good work,  
just keep us posted if the date gets moved in either direction, take it easy  
and talk at you later. 
 
 
Sparx 
 
===================================================== 
 I intend to live forever - so far, so good 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
 
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X-SMTP: helo access4.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access4.digex.net ip 205.197.245.195 
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 10:44:27 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Reply-To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sat, 11 Apr 1998, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote: 
 
> >  Combat Skill Levels: Part of the law enforcement profession is regular 
> Personally, in many cases I'd be happy to play using the PS: Cop and not 
> much else, but only if the GM agreed that the PS covers 95% of what you've 
> listed above.  I think most GMs would balk at the PS coverage being that 
> extensive, in which case I'd have to go with something much like what 
> you've described above. 
 
The one thing that bugged me about your response to Mark's listing of 
skills (and the responses to my listing of Knight skills) was the constant 
use of 'for a beginner, no'.  Joe cop (or average knight) does not mean 
rookie.  This is not D&D, where the generic cop/night/samurai is a 
first-level nobody that exists only to take up space.  The skill sets that 
Mark and I brought up were for a character with some experience, 
representing a spread of skills one would expect after sufficent exposure 
to the job. 
 
Now, if Mark's 54 point cop package is for a 'fresh out of the Acadamy' 
character, I'd balk too.  If it's ment to simulate the average 5-10 year 
veteran, then I have no problem.  Sure, it might be a bit over specific in 
skills (the Steve Long syndrome), but I prefer that to PS: Cop 11- and 
nothing else. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
 
 
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Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 08:23:52 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: COM rules [Really Long!] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:20 AM 4/10/1998 -0700, Christopher Taylor wrote: 
>At 11:25 AM 4/10/98 -0500, you wrote: 
>>>Make that 'appropriate' sex...after all, the Incredible Hunk should be 
>>>able to use his COM attack vs, say, Northstar of Alpha Flight... 
>> 
>>Very True! Can cause 'problems' for the attacker! ^_^; 
> 
>what a curious caveat... it obviously doesnt mean children either... nor 
>dead people...  why include only one segment of the population that is an 
>exception? 
 
   Actually, I don't think *any* psychologically-based attack would have 
much effect on dead people. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 08:40:53 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 02:40 AM 4/11/1998 EDT, GoldRushG wrote: 
>  Btw, I have written a new Perk: Fringe benefit -- Local/State Police 
Powers. 
>And for those who think I am just out to rack up a tubload of point costs, 
>this Perk *includes* the right to carry a concealed weapon off duty (i.e., no 
>extra Pts for Weapon Permit or Concealed Weapon Permit). (2 Pts) 
> 
>  And I also did not include a 1 Pt "License to practice Profession," despite 
>the fact that officers must be certified by the state and possess a "Peace 
>Officers Standards of Training (POST)" certificate to be hired...  ;) 
 
   This, I think, is a good call.  A Police Powers Perk (of any type or 
level) should include a license to operate as a police officer. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 08:48:52 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 09:01 AM 4/11/1998 -0500, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote: 
>>  And I also did not include a 1 Pt "License to practice Profession," 
despite 
>>the fact that officers must be certified by the state and possess a "Peace 
>>Officers Standards of Training (POST)" certificate to be hired...  ;) 
> 
>I generally assume that to be included under the PS if the profession is 
>one that requires licensing, bonding or other certification to practice. 
>Not much point in being qualified for the job if you can't prove that you 
are. 
 
   Don't assume that.  There have been a handful of cases in fiction, and 
of course several in real life, where an individual has been perfectly 
qualified to practice a profession but not licensed to do so. 
   Several years ago there was a character on General Hospital (I think 
Grant Andrews was his name) who was an orthopedic surgeon, but lost his 
license due to a political snafu (it turned out he was also a spy for an 
enemy power, but turned against his people to defect to the US, and lost 
his medical certification in the shuffle). 
   Along a similar line, there's a fellow up in Portland who is a highly 
qualified medical practitioner (I forget his area of specialization), but 
can't get his license because he came to America from Cambodia as one of 
the "boat people" of the 1970s and doesn't speak English well enough to 
pass the exam. 
   So it's not too unreasonable to assume that there are a few people 
running around with the qualifications and training to be a police officer, 
but who don't have the POST certificate. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 08:58:54 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org, champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The REPLY-TO thing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:49 PM 4/10/1998 -0700, John Desmarais wrote: 
>Well, sometime this weekend (maybe even today) you can expect to see 
>the REPLY-TO field cease to be populated.  There are two reasons for 
>this: 
> 
>1.  The "nays" outweighed the "yays" ever so slightly (by one vote - 
>total vote count was 27). 
 
   Actually I was ready to change my vote to say drop the Reply-To: header. 
 
>2.  A more compelling reason though is that I believe that turning it 
>off will generate less disharmony that leaving it on. 
 
   And you couldn't have waited until Tuesday?  ;-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 08:58:54 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org, champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The REPLY-TO thing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:49 PM 4/10/1998 -0700, John Desmarais wrote: 
>Well, sometime this weekend (maybe even today) you can expect to see 
>the REPLY-TO field cease to be populated.  There are two reasons for 
>this: 
> 
>1.  The "nays" outweighed the "yays" ever so slightly (by one vote - 
>total vote count was 27). 
 
   Actually I was ready to change my vote to say drop the Reply-To: header. 
 
>2.  A more compelling reason though is that I believe that turning it 
>off will generate less disharmony that leaving it on. 
 
   And you couldn't have waited until Tuesday?  ;-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 09:04:15 -0700 
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: A quick announcement 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
   For all interested: the address for my website has changed.  (Its actual 
location is the same; you just get to it differently.) 
   The correct address for Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page is below.  The 
old address will still get you there for the foreseeable future, however -- 
in fact, if I'm understanding my sysadmin correctly, for as long as it 
stays at Around the Klock.  So while changes in your bookmark files and 
link pages would be good, there's no panic. 
   Thank you for your time and bandwidth.  :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:07:12 -0400 (EDT) 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Knights 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>>High Society 
><< Hrm...maybe. >> 
> 
>  A Knight was expected to know how to behave and understand (and extoll) the 
>virtues of chivalry. I think High Society is very approrpiate for true 
>Knights. Now knaives... they could get away without having it. ;) 
 
Knights of the court, perhaps. But most knights didn't hang around the 
court; they were too busy governing lands and such. And knowledge of 
Chivalry would definitely be part of PS: Knight. 
 
>>KS: Dance 
><< Any idiot should be able to dance without requiring a KS. And not all 
>nights were courtiers. >> 
> 
>  Do you know how to Waltz? Two-step? Does everyone you know know how? Just 
>wondering. I certainly don't. ;) 
 
I'll bet I could fake a waltz with three minutes of instruction. My point 
being that your average individual can go to a nightclub and not look like a 
total doofus on the dance floor without having to buy PS: or KS: Dance. The 
same applies to knights and ladies; only those known as 'superior' dancers 
should buy PS: Dance. 
 
>>KS: Heraldry 
><< That's what you hire a Herald for... >> 
> 
>  Perhaps a herald carries the standard, but wouldn't the knight need to be 
>able to recognize the heraldic symbols of others? 
 
That's memory; not heraldry per se. If I was going to be as pedantic as to 
reqire knights to have KS: Heraldry, I'd separate KS: Heraldry from KS: 
Family Crests. They are not the same thing. 
 
Besides, (in)famous crests should be covered by Reputation, should they not? 
And anyone would know the 'major' crests of the land. 
 
>>KS: Poetry 
><< 'Any Idiot' skill. Only if you want _quality_ poetry should you have this 
>skill. >> 
> 
>  I think that was the intent. 
 
But this, and the Heraldry skill, assumes a high degree of literacy on the 
part of knights; this was not necessarily so. Plenty of them were barely 
literate or even illiterate - being able to read was a very big deal and not 
every knight could afford it (especially after all the other costs involved 
in being a knight) or practice it to a degree where they became truly 
proficient. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:14:19 -0500 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net 
Organization: Red Bow Antiques 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Hero Plus printed versions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Michael Sprague wrote: 
  
> On thing that annoyed me about "The Ultimate Super Mage" was that >there really wasn't enough room on the inside margin (duplexed) for >3-hole drilled paper.  I suppose it works okay if you want to put it >into a three ring notebook, but if you want to put it into a >folder/cover or use a simple binding system like you can get at Office >Max, the text is just too close tothe edge of the page!!! 
>  
 
        I have had this problem as well, but I have solved it now. I 
spend an extra $5.00 and buy sheet protectors. Then I bind the sheet 
protectors in a notebook. It really doesn't take up more room than the 
sheets by themselves, looks good, and protects my paper from spills and 
such. 
 
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Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 10:52:26 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The REPLY-TO thing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Ron Cole wrote: 
>  
> >Well, sometime this weekend (maybe even today) you can expect to see 
> >the REPLY-TO field cease to be populated.  There are two reasons for 
> >this: 
 
IMHO the one who does the work gets to make the rules.  This is true  
whether that is a GM or a List Administrator. 
 
>  
> Bleh... I don't suppose there's an option in there to set this by subscriber? 
> Or if there is other list software that we could switch to that does allow it? 
 
I suspect that Mr. Desmarais may have a life not connected with this  
list.  Frankly, I suggest that we all live with it as decreed. 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:59:41 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< I'd argue the police sergeant who showed up had the full skill, not just 
familiarity, but by the time someone is ready for the sergeant's exam they've 
racked up some XPs.>> 
 
  Being eligible for the Sgt.'s exam is based almost entirely on years of 
service in our department. Just FYI. 
 
  Plus, I know some Sgt.s who couldn't persuade a rock to stand still. <LOL> 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:16:44 -0500 
To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Joe Cop and Sir Joseph 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>The one thing that bugged me about your response to Mark's listing of 
>skills (and the responses to my listing of Knight skills) was the constant 
>use of 'for a beginner, no'.  Joe cop (or average knight) does not mean 
>rookie.  This is not D&D, where the generic cop/night/samurai is a 
>first-level nobody that exists only to take up space.  The skill sets that 
>Mark and I brought up were for a character with some experience, 
>representing a spread of skills one would expect after sufficent exposure 
>to the job. 
> 
>Now, if Mark's 54 point cop package is for a 'fresh out of the Acadamy' 
>character, I'd balk too.  If it's ment to simulate the average 5-10 year 
>veteran, then I have no problem.  Sure, it might be a bit over specific in 
>skills (the Steve Long syndrome), but I prefer that to PS: Cop 11- and 
>nothing else. 
 
I didn't reply to your list of Knight skills.  I thought it was very well 
constructed as you had it, though I did wonder if Perk: Knight included 
things like the Right of Hospitality or if it was just meant to be a 
version of the Rank perk.  I might also have made one of two of the listed 
Skills into Familiarities, but the only real quibble I had was with 
Paramedic, and someone else raised that objection, so I didn't need to. 
 
It was my understanding that the package presented was meant to be 
representative of any given policeman.  I did understand that it wasn't 
being suggested that the detailed presentation *must* be used in all cases, 
but I had thought what we were being given here was a choice between PS: 
Cop 11- (to represent all policemen within the campaign) or, if the GM 
prefered the maore detailed and realistic approach, something like the 
54-point package given could be used as the base template for all policemen 
in the campaign.  If that's true, it needs to apply to rookies as well as 
5-10 year vets, and it's on that basis that I made my comments. 
 
If in fact I misunderstood the intent, and the skill package Mark described 
was only meant to refer to veterans with several years on-the-job 
experience, then you are quite right there was no need for me to say 
anything at all.  Fortunately for most of us, misinterpretation of things 
like that won't get a person shot. 
 
Damon 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:19:53 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< I won't strongly contest the presence of this Skill, but since you said 
"over time, it gradually adds", doesn't that imply that the baseline cop will 
*not* have CSLs, placing this into in the category of things that should be 
added on later? >> 
 
  No. That comment was in response to the "Some Gms may argue." In my opinion 
and experience, baseline cops start with extra Skill Levels because of their 
initial training. You don't give a new cop a gun without training them how to 
use it and becoming proficient. There's a liability issue. Cops *have* to be 
more proficient than the "average citizen" withal of their equipment, aqnd 
this goes beyond the basic Weapon Familiarity. 
 
<< I don't think I'd give Officer Everyman a Speed Estimation ability; >> 
 
  I didn't suggest that they do get this ability. I merely listed it as one of 
many possible KSs. Not all of the skills I listed would necessarily apply to 
baseline cops. Apologies for not making that clear. However, msot of those 
skills are worthy of a Familiarity for new cops. 
 
<< if I did, I'd base it on a Talent rather than a KS. >> 
 
  You could do it either way, using a Talent requiring a PER roll. But I think 
of it as more of a skill which can be increased with experience. Some officers 
I know can go into court and simply provide a speed estimation, which the 
court accepts the same as it would a number from a radar gun! No joke. From so 
many appearances in court and accurate estimations, the court felt that the 
officer's experience was sufficient for admission. 
 
<< However it's modeled, it sounds more like something you get from 
experience, though. >> 
 
  It was another of those "not necessarily every cop has it" skills. 
 
<< Perhaps the GM should award bonus XPTS over the course of the campaign in 
the form of abilities like this that "every good cop" will automatically learn 
in the course of performing his normal duties. >> 
 
  A good idea. 
 
<< I agree the rookie should start with a FAM, but  any cop worth his salt 
will build this into a Skill over time. >> 
 
  Absolutely. Unfotunately, there are some who don't get that opportuity, as 
they work in the jail, or the court system, or in some other position other 
than patrol (this is more common in sheriff's depts than city police depts 
AFAIK). 
 
<< The rules are a little vague on this, but I generally assume a WF covers 
the knowledge of routine cleaning and maintenance. >> 
 
  Under Weaponsmith is states "maintain...," which is why I listed it as a 
Familiarity, with the caveat that it applies only to the weapons they have WF 
for. 
 
<< I expect a character with WF: small arms to know how to clean the weapon 
and clear a jam. >> 
 
  In which case you wouldn't need your players to buy it. 
 
>  What about Perks? Does not a typical patrol cop have a few neighborhood or 
>departmental contacts? (0 Pts min) 
 
<< Acquired during his time on the beat, yes.  Not on his first day out of the 
academy. >> 
 
  Which is why it is listed with a suggested 0 Pt minimum. :/ 
 
<< I generally assume that to be included under the PS if the profession is 
one that requires licensing, bonding or other certification to practice. Not 
much point in being qualified for the job if you can't prove that you are. >> 
 
  One can have the Professional Skill lawyer (law school grad?) and yet not 
possess the license (didn't pass the bar?). 
 
<< Personally, in many cases I'd be happy to play using the PS: Cop and not 
much else, but only if the GM agreed that the PS covers 95% of what you've 
listed above.>> 
 
  Keep in mind that Law & Order will have quite a bit more than just police 
character Packages and templates. It will also have a good amount of 
equipment, weapons, vehicles, and tons of source material about what cops do, 
how they do it, and in some cases why they do it. Great campaign material for 
anyone, in any modern genre, wanting more info about cops, much like UMA 
provided info about martial artists, or TUSM did about mages. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:22:02 EDT 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: San Angelo 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< Keep up the good work, just keep us posted if the date gets moved in either 
direction... >> 
 
  We certainly will. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:39:58 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Knights 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< And knowledge of Chivalry would definitely be part of PS: Knight. >> 
 
  Is that so? 
 
>>KS: Dance 
><< Any idiot should be able to dance without requiring a KS 
 
<< I'll bet I could fake a waltz with three minutes of instruction. >> 
 
  Faking a Waltz is not the same as having a good knowledge and adequate 
proficiency with the Waltz. Just because I can fake something doesn't mean I 
have the skill. :/ 
 
<< My point being that your average individual can go to a nightclub and not 
look like a total doofus on the dance floor without having to buy PS: or KS: 
Dance. >> 
 
  Improvising a dance is not the same as knowing how to dance in a certain 
formal style, IMO. Just because I can fake the Electric Slide doesn't mean I 
actually know how to do it. In fact, to those who *do* know how to do it, I 
*would* look like a doofus. 
 
>  Perhaps a herald carries the standard, but wouldn't the knight need to be 
>able to recognize the heraldic symbols of others? 
 
<< That's memory; not heraldry per se. >> 
 
  You have got to be joking? The same could be said of *any* Knowledge Skill, 
then. "Oh, I don't need that skill, I just 'remember' it." ;)  Sorry, I 
disagree with this logic completely. 
 
<< Besides, (in)famous crests should be covered by Reputation, should they 
not? 
And anyone would know the 'major' crests of the land. >> 
 
  Now you're defining things a bit. The original comment was more broad, 
dealing with crests in general. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:45:27 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Knights 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sat, 11 Apr 1998, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
> << And knowledge of Chivalry would definitely be part of PS: Knight. >> 
>  
>   Is that so? 
 
I agree with Mark.  PS: Knight does not grant extenmsive knowledge of the 
tenants and practices of Chivalry.  Heck, "The Book of the Order of 
Chivalry" was written about the subject to illuminate what was considered 
proper behaviour in knights. 
  
> >>KS: Dance 
> ><< Any idiot should be able to dance without requiring a KS 
>  
> << I'll bet I could fake a waltz with three minutes of instruction. >> 
>  
>   Faking a Waltz is not the same as having a good knowledge and adequate 
> proficiency with the Waltz. Just because I can fake something doesn't mean I 
> have the skill. :/ 
 
A proper gentleman might be expected to know several styles of dance, and 
to be considered a man of quality, to know them well. 
  
> >  Perhaps a herald carries the standard, but wouldn't the knight need to be 
> >able to recognize the heraldic symbols of others? 
>  
> << That's memory; not heraldry per se. >> 
>  
>   You have got to be joking? The same could be said of *any* Knowledge Skill, 
> then. "Oh, I don't need that skill, I just 'remember' it." ;)  Sorry, I 
> disagree with this logic completely. 
 
I agree with Mark.  KS: Heraldy will allow the knight to describe arms to 
others, cant his own arms, understand the canting of other's arms, as well 
as know who the heck is bearing what on the battlefield.   
  
> << Besides, (in)famous crests should be covered by Reputation, should they 
> not? 
> And anyone would know the 'major' crests of the land. >> 
>  
>   Now you're defining things a bit. The original comment was more broad, 
> dealing with crests in general. 
 
Hey, I never said a word about crests, I was talking about heraldic arms, 
like what you see on a shield.  Worrying about creasts, mottos and 
supporters is a herald's job. 
 
Hmm... I guess I'll have to post a list of knightly skills like Mark did 
for cops. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 14:07:58 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>>I generally assume that to be included under the PS if the profession is 
>>one that requires licensing, bonding or other certification to practice. 
>>Not much point in being qualified for the job if you can't prove that you 
>are. 
> 
>   Several years ago there was a character on General Hospital (I think 
>Grant Andrews was his name) who was an orthopedic surgeon, but lost his 
>license due to a political snafu (it turned out he was also a spy for an 
>enemy power, but turned against his people to defect to the US, and lost 
>his medical certification in the shuffle). 
 
While it would never have occured to me to hold up General Hospital as an 
example of how to do things in order to add realism to a game, your point 
(and Mark's, when he mentioned the law school grad who didn't pass the bar 
exam) is well taken.  The PS Skill in its original description indicated 
that a person with a PS was "pretty good, enough to get a job in the 
field".  If the job requires a certification you don't have, presumably you 
can't get the job; ergo, if you *can* get a job on the basis of the PS 
alone, it must include any license or certification required to do so. 
 
Unfortunately for me, even if that interpretation might have been valid 
once, it isn't any longer.  I went back and checked, and Champions II 
describes the PS as "enough to get a job", but the 4th Ed rules do not. 
This voids the whole basis for my position and I will have to make the 
adjustment.   
 
Damon 
 
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Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:38:39 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Knights 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
><< And knowledge of Chivalry would definitely be part of PS: Knight. >> 
> 
>  Is that so? 
 
Of course! That's part of what differentiates it from PS: Mercinary Soldier. 
Chivalry was (supposed to be) part of the professional etiquette of the 
knight, neh? 
 
>>>KS: Dance 
>><< Any idiot should be able to dance without requiring a KS 
> 
><< I'll bet I could fake a waltz with three minutes of instruction. >> 
> 
>  Faking a Waltz is not the same as having a good knowledge and adequate 
>proficiency with the Waltz. Just because I can fake something doesn't mean I 
>have the skill. :/ 
 
Exactly. If a knight wants to 'impress' the ladies with how well he dances, 
it's time for him to buy PS: Dancing (KS: Dancing would be theoretical and 
historical knowledge...IOW, Dance Masters only). 
 
I can't help but wonder if the 'Everyman' skills in a campaign shouldn't 
depend on the background of the individual - namely, the social class they 
come from, as bought as a Perk/Disad. Nobles (Perk:Nobility) and Peasants 
(Phys.Lim.:Serf) should in theory have broadly different 'Everyman' skills, 
should they not? 
> 
><< My point being that your average individual can go to a nightclub and not 
>look like a total doofus on the dance floor without having to buy PS: or KS: 
>Dance. >> 
> 
>  Improvising a dance is not the same as knowing how to dance in a certain 
>formal style, IMO. Just because I can fake the Electric Slide doesn't mean I 
>actually know how to do it. In fact, to those who *do* know how to do it, I 
>*would* look like a doofus. 
 
But those that _do_ know are either club dwellers (who do little else but 
work at day and club at night) or trained dancers. And I wasn't talking 
about improvising per se, but simply getting by with a few basic dance steps. 
 
The problem is that when you get to 'picky' about who has what skills, 
almost _any_ human being needs 100+ points to be properly represented. Even 
the stuff from your student work days would provide a half dozen PS's, if 
only at the FAM level. 
 
>>  Perhaps a herald carries the standard, but wouldn't the knight need to be 
>>able to recognize the heraldic symbols of others? 
> 
><< That's memory; not heraldry per se. >> 
> 
>  You have got to be joking? The same could be said of *any* Knowledge Skill, 
>then. "Oh, I don't need that skill, I just 'remember' it." ;)  Sorry, I 
>disagree with this logic completely. 
 
I misspoke myself; it's a factor of Area Knowledge. A knight would know the 
crests of the local nobles best (local AK), and the important crests of the 
high lords of the nation (national AK, or just a penalty on the local AK). 
Most knights would be completely stumped on foreign crests unless they were 
of (in)famous lords. Somebody with Heraldry could probably tell you the 
geneology of a person just from his crest, especially in the later years 
when crests started to get messy, what with quartering, and added helms and 
scrollwork and mottoes and bestiaries. 
 
After all, you can recognize the flags of your state, city and township, 
right? Same thing; area knowledge. Knights applying for a 'new' coat of arms 
consulted with Heralds to insure that they did not conflict with other 
crests (a serious no-no); there's no way the 'average' knight would have the 
knowledge to perform this kind of research - and that's primarily what KS: 
Heraldry is, IMHO. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 19:03:50 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Knights 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sat, 11 Apr 1998, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
> >>KS: Dance 
> ><< Any idiot should be able to dance without requiring a KS. And not all 
> >nights were courtiers. >> 
> > 
> >  Do you know how to Waltz? Two-step? Does everyone you know know how? Just 
> >wondering. I certainly don't. ;) 
>  
> I'll bet I could fake a waltz with three minutes of instruction. My point 
> being that your average individual can go to a nightclub and not look like a 
> total doofus on the dance floor without having to buy PS: or KS: Dance. The 
> same applies to knights and ladies; only those known as 'superior' dancers 
> should buy PS: Dance. 
 
Well, actually, dancing was one of the bigger social activities of the 
time.  /Everybody/ danced, peasant and noble, because that's what people 
did when they got together.  It gave an excuse for meeting, flirting, etc.  
 
Note that the dances likely to be known are not waltzes and such - they're 
much later historically.  You're going to have country dances and the 
like.  Italy and Spain had more 'ballroom' types of dancing - very formal, 
full of reverances (bows/curtseys) to your partners, etc. 
 
Anyway, from all the information I've heard, knights should definitely be 
able to dance - but so should everyone else in a medieval society.  If I 
were running a middle ages game, I'd definitely make it an Everyman skill. 
 
J 
 
"One equal temper of heroic hearts,              http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will              jeffj@io.com 
 To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."    - Tennyson, "Ulysses" 


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