Week Ending April 18, 1998

Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo out2.ibm.net from john.desmarais@ibm.net server @out2.ibm.net ip 165.87.194.229 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 98 00:17:35  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: The REPLY-TO thing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sat, 11 Apr 1998 10:52:26 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
 
>Ron Cole wrote: 
>>  
>> >Well, sometime this weekend (maybe even today) you can expect to see 
>> >the REPLY-TO field cease to be populated.  There are two reasons for 
>> >this: 
> 
>IMHO the one who does the work gets to make the rules.  This is true  
>whether that is a GM or a List Administrator. 
 
True I suppose, but there's no reason for me to be an ogre about it. 
 
 
>> Bleh... I don't suppose there's an option in there to set this by subscriber? 
>> Or if there is other list software that we could switch to that does allow it? 
> 
>I suspect that Mr. Desmarais may have a life not connected with this  
>list. 
 
An ugly rumor. 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo web2.rocketmail.com from daleaward@rocketmail.com server @web2.rocketmail.com ip 205.180.57.68 
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 00:23:35 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Dale Ward <daleaward@rocketmail.com> 
Subject: Re: Knights 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
---Sakura  wrote: 
>  
> Well, actually, dancing was one of the bigger social activities of the 
> time.  /Everybody/ danced, peasant and noble, because that's what people 
> did when they got together.  It gave an excuse for meeting, flirting, etc.  
[snip] 
> Anyway, from all the information I've heard, knights should definitely be 
> able to dance - but so should everyone else in a medieval society.  If I 
> were running a middle ages game, I'd definitely make it an Everyman skill. 
>  
> J 
 
     Finally, someone who understands... different culture, different Everyman 
skills!  Any person brought up in a culture where dancing was as common as 
watching TV is for us would have as little trouble on the dance floor as the 
average 8-year old has setting the VCR clock! 
     The same can be said for many knightly skills.  Just because WE consider 
such things to be esoteric knowledge doesn't mean THEY had any trouble with it. 
     And, vice versa for such things as literacy... that was more a priestly 
thing.  In fact, it was not uncommon for a landed knight, or even higher 
nobility, to place all the responsibility for reading and writing on his local 
clergy (mainly because he was totally illiterate himself). 
     One thing you may want to consider, though... since they could never be 
sure if their prospective message recipients could read, most messages were 
conveyed by word of mouth.  Thus, there was a cultural need for strong, 
perhaps even EIDETIC, memory. 
     For more detail on medieval life, I strongly recommend Gordon R. 
Dickson's series of excellent fantasy novels The Dragon And The (fill in the 
blank).  Even though they are fantasy, the depiction of medieval culture is 
amazingly accurate. 
 
     That's all from me... for now.  Take care! 
 
Dale A. Ward 
($.02 Paid In Full) 
 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail3.bunt.com from uraeus@mail3.bunt.com server @mail3.bunt.com ip 195.178.0.27 
From: Rog <uraeus@mail3.bunt.com> 
To: "'Champions Mail List'" <CHAMP-L@sysabend.org> 
Subject: "Buying" off  -0 limitations 
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 15:38:28 +0200 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
I was wondering how GMs handle characters who 
want to remove -0 limitations from their powers. 
 
Do you just roleplay the character working to 
remove the limitation until it is gone; require them 
to spend points to remove the limitation, even tho' 
it doesn't save points to begin with; etc? 
 
-Roger 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail3.bunt.com from uraeus@mail3.bunt.com server @mail3.bunt.com ip 195.178.0.27 
From: Rog <uraeus@mail3.bunt.com> 
To: "'Champions Mail List'" <CHAMP-L@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Miss Direction  
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 16:06:47 +0200 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Got some questions, but let me expain the problem first. 
 
Miss Direction has the mystical ability to reorient any moving 
physical object from its original path to move in another 
direction.   
 
Ex: Rhino is charging Miss D at a velocity of 12", she 
does her thing and Rhino suddenly finds himself heading 
back the way he came; into the wall to his right; into his 
buddy Mr. OhShitI'mGonnaBeCreamedByMyOwnPartner; 
straight up into the air; etc. 
 
I am thinking of constructing this power as: 
XDM(change orientation), UAO(+1), Ranged(+1/2), 
only vs physical objects/beings(-?),  
only vs moving objects/beings(-?) 
 
So, 
 
1)  What, if anything, are the two limitations worth? 
Note: I listed them separately so that the lims would have to 
be bought off independently. 
 
2)  Is the minimum amount of XDM [20 pts; one dimension] 
enough to construct this power?  Or should it be [30 pts; 
one related group of dimensions] to simulate the shunting to 
*any* direction? 
 
3)  If she buys the x2 mass option on XDM, does she have 
to purchase it for UAO as well? 
 
4)  Using the example above:  If Rhino (velocity 12") is 
suddenly going straight up into the air (and he has no flight) 
how far up will his momentum carry him?   
I ask because how far up he travels will determine how far he 
will fall back to the ground and how much damage that he will 
take from this. 
 
5)  What would be a "reasonably common set of defenses" 
vs this attack?   
 
 
Thanks, 
-Roger 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-SMTP: helo pentagon.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@pentagon.io.com ip 199.170.88.5 
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs 
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 09:37:05 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: "Buying" off  -0 limitations 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, Rog wrote: 
 
> I was wondering how GMs handle characters who 
> want to remove -0 limitations from their powers. 
 
That depends heavily on the power and the limitation.  If the limitation 
is due to their SFX (sonic powers not working in a vacuum) then I probably 
wouldn't let them buy it off at all. 
 
If it were due to a fine point of control or some such that the character 
could conceivably change - roleplay, definitely. The player was nice 
enough to provide you with this 'hook', so use it. People taking a 0-pt 
limitation willingly certainly aren't doing it because they're 
pointmongers (the pointmongers would be busy trying to convince you it's 
worth -1/4).  
 
J 
 
"One equal temper of heroic hearts,              http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will              jeffj@io.com 
 To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."    - Tennyson, "Ulysses" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo sanfran.infinex.com from rook@infinex.com server root@ns1.infinex.com ip 207.113.220.1 
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 09:12:55 -0700 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> >I generally assume that to be included under the PS if the profession is 
> >one that requires licensing, bonding or other certification to practice. 
> >Not much point in being qualified for the job if you can't prove that you 
> are. 
>  
>    Don't assume that.  There have been a handful of cases in fiction, and 
> of course several in real life, where an individual has been perfectly 
> qualified to practice a profession but not licensed to do so. 
>    So it's not too unreasonable to assume that there are a few people 
> running around with the qualifications and training to be a police officer, 
> but who don't have the POST certificate. 
 
	Such as your typical SP/MP military veteran. These guys are cops for 
the military. When they get out, some become police officers, but not 
all. Yet they all have all the police knowledge; just for a somewhat 
diferent legal system. 
 
--  
Rook			    
 __ 
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html  Super Hero Links Page 
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/              Super Hero Role 
Playing 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail.interhop.net from jprins@interhop.net server root@mail.interhop.net ip 204.50.138.29 
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:24:16 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Miss Direction  
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>Got some questions, but let me expain the problem first. 
> 
>Miss Direction has the mystical ability to reorient any moving 
>physical object from its original path to move in another 
>direction.   
 
>I am thinking of constructing this power as: 
>XDM(change orientation), UAO(+1), Ranged(+1/2), 
>only vs physical objects/beings(-?),  
>only vs moving objects/beings(-?) 
 
Hrm. I'd personally use Telekinesis, Fully Invisible, Only to Change the 
Path of A Moving Object (-1). Then just use a STR vs. STR roll to 'control' 
the poor sap you're moving. You win the STR roll, he has to go your way! 
That, or you just ignore a STR vs STR contest and use the TK to 'throw' the 
target with the TK; it's just the SFX look as if you're controlling his 
direction. Probably best used as a held phase... 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp3.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp3.erols.com ip 207.172.3.236 
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:50:14 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Knights 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
John and Ron Prins wrote: 
>  
> >>High Society 
> ><< Hrm...maybe. >> 
> > 
> >  A Knight was expected to know how to behave and understand (and extoll) the 
> >virtues of chivalry. I think High Society is very approrpiate for true 
> >Knights. Now knaives... they could get away without having it. ;) 
>  
> Knights of the court, perhaps. But most knights didn't hang around the 
> court; they were too busy governing lands and such. And knowledge of 
> Chivalry would definitely be part of PS: Knight. 
 
Knowledge of the conventions of Chivalric conduct would be common to all  
knights, but they would vary greatly in their ability to put it into  
practice.  From the days of Richard III onward, there was a strong  
distinction, as you point out, between carpet and battlefield knights. 
 
As such, I would want the ability to distinguish the abilities, and High  
Society would be a recommended purchase for Knights, but not an Everyman  
nor a part of the package.  
 
>  
> >>KS: Dance 
> ><< Any idiot should be able to dance without requiring a KS. And not all 
> >nights were courtiers. >> 
 
KS: Dance should be knowledge of the history of dance, regional  
variations, etc. 
 
Dancing (DEX) is a physical skill, requiring much practice over time.   
The earliest dances that I have experience with dances are the Minuet  
(1650) and the Waltz (1770).  The earliest courtly dances were modified  
versions of traditional dating from the 15th century.  If you want an  
historical medieval setting, then the knights and ladies dance the same  
traditional dances as the peasants and this is an everyman skill.  If you  
want courtly dances, then this is a separate skill, and rustic nobles  
from the provinces might lack it. 
 
PS: Dancer should IMHO be restricted to professional teachers and  
performers. 
 
> > 
> >  Do you know how to Waltz? Two-step? Does everyone you know know how? Just 
> >wondering. I certainly don't. ;) 
>  
> I'll bet I could fake a waltz with three minutes of instruction.  
 
I wouldn't put money on that if I were you!  I have assisted with  
beginning ballroom classes, and it takes at least a full hour to get to  
the "fake it" level, unless the person is already a professional-level  
dancer, and longer than five minutes even if he or she is a professional. 
 
And...you can't really fake it anyway.  You either know what you are  
doing and do it right, or you stick out like a sore thumb to everyone in  
the place. 
 
>                                                                   My point 
> being that your average individual can go to a nightclub and not look like a 
> total doofus on the dance floor without having to buy PS: or KS: Dance.  
 
Well, your typical club dancer *does* look like a total doofus.  The  
reason that this is not remarked on is that all his friends also look  
like total doofuses. 
 
I had hundreds of hours of training in ballroom dance, and did well in  
competitions, but I do not flatter myself that I could get out on a  
hip-hop floor and look like I know what I am doing without spending a  
*lot* more than three minutes.  I can, however, tell the difference  
between competent and incompetent dancers, even in an unfamiliar field. 
 
 
>  
> >>KS: Poetry 
> ><< 'Any Idiot' skill. Only if you want _quality_ poetry should you have this 
> >skill. >> 
> > 
> >  I think that was the intent. 
>  
> But this, and the Heraldry skill, assumes a high degree of literacy on the 
> part of knights; this was not necessarily so. Plenty of them were barely 
> literate or even illiterate - being able to read was a very big deal and not 
> every knight could afford it (especially after all the other costs involved 
> in being a knight) or practice it to a degree where they became truly 
> proficient. 
 
What makes you think that Heraldry was a skill for the literate.  The  
escutcheons were developed precisely as identifiers that could be created  
and used by the non-literate.  It doesn't require reading to learn the  
rules of heraldry, or the names of the elements, etc. 
 
What makes you think that poetry has anything to do with literacy?  The  
composer of Beowulf as we have it was almost certainly not literate.  It  
was written down by a monk who was interested in preserving it for some  
reason -- possibly a nationalistic Saxon after the conquest. 
 
As for being an "Any Idiot" skill, a knight was expected to extemporize  
poetry that would, if not impress others, at least not embarrass himself.  
This is not a universal skill, and it requires considerable training and  
practice.  Are you forgetting about Caedmon?  He was a Saxon knight who  
could not extemporize poetry at the mead-table, and who was humiliated  
for it. According to his own account, he prayed for deliverance, and  
produced the beautiful old-english hymn known ever after as Caedmon's  
hymn. 
 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp3.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp3.erols.com ip 207.172.3.236 
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 11:29:56 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Knights 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Dale Ward wrote: 
>  
> ---Sakura  wrote: 
> > 
> > Well, actually, dancing was one of the bigger social activities of the 
> > time.  /Everybody/ danced, peasant and noble, because that's what people 
> > did when they got together.  It gave an excuse for meeting, flirting, etc. 
 
And, dances such as the Carol and the May Day dances had earlier  
ritual/magical/religious significance.  IIRC, the Morris dances were  
probably derived from such a source as well. 
 
 
> > were running a middle ages game, I'd definitely make it an Everyman skill. 
> > 
> > J 
>  
>      Finally, someone who understands... different culture, different Everyman 
> skills!  Any person brought up in a culture where dancing was as common as 
> watching TV is for us would have as little trouble on the dance floor as the 
> average 8-year old has setting the VCR clock! 
 
This is why it is vital whether the GM wants a society in which courtly  
dances are distinct from the traditional dances of the countryside. 
 
>      The same can be said for many knightly skills.  Just because WE consider 
> such things to be esoteric knowledge doesn't mean THEY had any trouble with it. 
 
Are all PCs going to be knights?  If so, then I agree they should be  
Everyman skills.  If not, then those skills should be included with the  
Package Deal: Knight. 
 
 
>      For more detail on medieval life, I strongly recommend Gordon R. 
> Dickson's series of excellent fantasy novels The Dragon And The (fill in the 
> blank).  Even though they are fantasy, the depiction of medieval culture is 
> amazingly accurate. 
 
Well, de gustibus non est disputandem, but you seem to have a higher  
opinion of GRD than do I.  Then again, I came to him via the Dorsai  
books, which may have poisoned the well. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp1.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp1.erols.com ip 207.172.3.234 
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 13:32:06 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Rook wrote: 
>  
> > >I generally assume that to be included under the PS if the profession is 
> > >one that requires licensing, bonding or other certification to practice. 
> > >Not much point in being qualified for the job if you can't prove that you 
> > are. 
> > 
> >    Don't assume that.  There have been a handful of cases in fiction, and 
> > of course several in real life, where an individual has been perfectly 
> > qualified to practice a profession but not licensed to do so. 
 
And, the license to practice may be suspended or revoked, which does not  
reduce the Professional Skill any -- although it might deteriorate over  
time.  In a supers campaign where mutants were illegal, a mutant  
physician might lack the requisite license. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail3.bunt.com from uraeus@mail3.bunt.com server @mail3.bunt.com ip 195.178.0.27 
From: Rog <uraeus@mail3.bunt.com> 
To: "'Champions Mail List'" <CHAMP-L@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Miss Direction  
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:13:25 +0200 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id RAA20111 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
---------- 
From:  Robert A. West [SMTP:robtwest@erols.com] 
Sent:  Sunday, April 12, 1998 11:42 PM 
Rog wrote: 
> Miss Direction has the mystical ability to reorient any moving 
> physical object from its original path to move in another 
> direction. 
Many SFX questions: Why can't she rotate an object that is stationary with respect to the local reference frame?  Can she rotate an object's motion with respect to some other reference frame?  Can she only rotate motion relative to her own reference frame? 
She can rotate objects in motion>  relative to the Earth.  She may 
learn to affect stationary objects in the future, but hey she's only 
16, give her a chance, she's still testing her abilities and she  
can currently only affect with objects that already have a momentum 
 
> I am thinking of constructing this power as: 
> XDM(change orientation), UAO(+1), Ranged(+1/2), 
> only vs physical objects/beings(-?), 
> only vs moving objects/beings(-?) 
Why XDM?  The target is not leaving normal space-time.  This is an  
extremely powerful effect, that can deal out significant amounts of  
damage.  I would point it as 
40	12" Teleport UAO(+1) Ranged(+1/2) Rotate only(-1/2) 
		Defense = having teleport or moving > the teleport. 
 
The special effect is that the object is rotated and now has its velocity in the new direction.  It requires more END to rotate a faster moving object, which strikes me as reasonable, and buying enough of this power to really hurt someone will be comparable to buying the requisite amount of Energy Blast. 
Why 12" of Teleport> ?  She is not moving the target any distance, 
only changing its bearing.  And how do you see this costing more 
END the faster an object is moving?  [That's not a bad idea but 
I don't see how this reflects that, unless you mean that different 
levels of Teleport are used for different speeds] 
 
<snip> 
Assume that Rhino is running at 12", and he has a SPD of 4.  He is travelling 48"/turn = 4"/segment.  This means that he comes to a stop in less than a segment.  According to the BBB, he will travel 4" upwards and take 4D6 damage on falling.  According to my table, he will travel 2" upwards and take 2D6 damage on falling.  My guess is that neither will bother Rhino one whit, except that he probably lacks Breakfall. 
	It may not bother Rhino, but what about Mr Speed, a physically weak 
	character who can move up to 20"/6 SPD (only along the ground). 
	Weeeee......way up!   Long way down!  Can you say Scrunch!! ? 
	<evil HM grin> 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
	Thanks, for the comments, 
	-Roger 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail3.bunt.com from uraeus@mail3.bunt.com server @mail3.bunt.com ip 195.178.0.27 
From: Rog <uraeus@mail3.bunt.com> 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Miss Direction  
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:24:51 +0200 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
---------- 
From:  John and Ron Prins [SMTP:jprins@interhop.net] 
Sent:  Sunday, April 12, 1998 6:24 PM 
 
>Got some questions, but let me expain the problem first. 
> 
>Miss Direction has the mystical ability to reorient any moving 
>physical object from its original path to move in another 
>direction.   
 
>I am thinking of constructing this power as: 
>XDM(change orientation), UAO(+1), Ranged(+1/2), 
>only vs physical objects/beings(-?),  
>only vs moving objects/beings(-?) 
 
Hrm. I'd personally use Telekinesis, Fully Invisible, Only to Change the 
Path of A Moving Object (-1). Then just use a STR vs. STR roll to 'control' 
the poor sap you're moving. You win the STR roll, he has to go your way! 
That, or you just ignore a STR vs STR contest and use the TK to 'throw' the 
target with the TK; it's just the SFX look as if you're controlling his 
direction. Probably best used as a held phase... 
 
	I don't see this ability as a STR vs STR contest.  She should be 
	able to affect a kid on a bike as easily as Mr Muscular with his 
	80 STR, as long as the target is with in the mass range she can 
	handle (probably only man-sized or maybe 2xman-sized, to start) 
 
	Although, doing without STR vs STR contest might work.  would 
	Need to buy TK STR at about 25-30 so that the casual STR  
	(12-15) would be enough to affect a man(or 2) massed object. 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
	Thanks for the comments, 
	Roger 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp1.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp1.erols.com ip 207.172.3.234 
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 14:41:42 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: "'Champions Mail List'" <CHAMP-L@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Miss Direction  
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Rog wrote: 
>  
> Miss Direction has the mystical ability to reorient any moving 
> physical object from its original path to move in another 
> direction. 
 
Many SFX questions: Why can't she rotate an object that is stationary  
with respect to the local reference frame?  Can she rotate an object's  
motion with respect to some other reference frame?  Can she only rotate  
motion relative to her own reference frame? 
 
>  
> I am thinking of constructing this power as: 
> XDM(change orientation), UAO(+1), Ranged(+1/2), 
> only vs physical objects/beings(-?), 
> only vs moving objects/beings(-?) 
 
Why XDM?  The target is not leaving normal space-time.  This is an  
extremely powerful effect, that can deal out significant amounts of  
damage.  I would point it as 
 
40	12" Teleport UAO(+1) Ranged(+1/2) Rotate only(-1/2) 
		Defense = having teleport or moving > the teleport. 
 
The special effect is that the object is rotated and now has its velocity  
in the new direction.  It requires more END to rotate a faster moving  
object, which strikes me as reasonable, and buying enough of this power  
to really hurt someone will be comparable to buying the requisite amount  
of Energy Blast. 
 
>  
> So, 
>  
> 1)  What, if anything, are the two limitations worth? 
> Note: I listed them separately so that the lims would have to 
> be bought off independently. 
 
Nothing. 
 
Something that is defined by SFX as non-physical is usually bought  
desolid, so you are taking a limitation for not affecting desolid. If you  
mean that you cannot affect Energy Blasts or RKAs that are going off, I  
would not allow any power except Dispel or Suppress to be used that way  
in the first place. 
 
Since there is no reason to use this power against non-moving objects,  
the restriction is trivial. 
 
>  
> 2)  Is the minimum amount of XDM [20 pts; one dimension] 
> enough to construct this power?  Or should it be [30 pts; 
> one related group of dimensions] to simulate the shunting to 
> *any* direction? 
 
Since this is not the way that "Dimension" is being used for XDM, I would  
not use that power.  See above. 
 
>  
> 3)  If she buys the x2 mass option on XDM, does she have 
> to purchase it for UAO as well? 
 
I assume that you mean to ask, "If she buys the x2 mass option on XDM,  
does she have to pay the +1 UAO for it as well?"  The answer is, of  
course, yes.  Advantages always apply to the entire power.  A power and a  
power with an advantage are distinct powers.  This rule comes from 3rd  
ed., but the lack of any discussion about "partially advantaged" powers  
convinces me that it was intended to be carried over to 4th ed. 
 
>  
> 4)  Using the example above:  If Rhino (velocity 12") is 
> suddenly going straight up into the air (and he has no flight) 
> how far up will his momentum carry him? 
 
To determine how far or how long an object moves when thrown upward,  
simply convert the velocity to "/segment look in the velocity column  
of the falling table backwards.  You can use the distance column to find  
the distance fallen, but the distances in the BBB are a bit too high.   
The physically accurate distances, assuming g=5"/segment are: 
 
	Segment		Velocity after	Correct Distance 	BBB 
	1		5"			2.5"		5" 
	2		10"			10"		15" 
	3		15"			22.5"		30" 
	4		20"			40"		50" 
	5		25"			62.5"		75" 
	6		30"			90"		105" 
 
The formula for the correct distance is 0.5*g*t^2, where g is the  
acceleration due to gravity and t is the time fallen. 
 
Assume that Rhino is running at 12", and he has a SPD of 4.  He is  
travelling 48"/turn = 4"/segment.  This means that he comes to a stop in  
less than a segment.  According to the BBB, he will travel 4" upwards and  
take 4D6 damage on falling.  According to my table, he will travel 2"  
upwards and take 2D6 damage on falling.  My guess is that neither will  
bother Rhino one whit, except that he probably lacks Breakfall. 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo out1.ibm.net from john.desmarais@ibm.net server @out1.ibm.net ip 165.87.194.252 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
To: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 98 00:25:21  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Gadget Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 3 
 
On Mon, 13 Apr 1998 00:18:00 -0400 (EDT), Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
>How would people write up a line gun?  For firing of climbing lines, not 
>swing lines. 
> 
>Would one use Swinging? 
>Stretching? 
>I know that Ninja Hero talks about using Entangle, but I seems a bit odd 
>to create a climbing line with that exact power. 
> 
>Suggestions? 
 
Is this the Batman style of fire the gun into the air anywhere in the city and magically  
catch hold of some structure above you, or a semi-realistic device to help you climb up  
the side of a building (or similar object)?   
 
For the semi-realistic device I'd actually suggest Clinging. 
For the Bat-thing I'd go with limited Flight ("must have stucture over head") 
 
 
 
 
      John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysanbend,org> 
================================================= 
Gotta question about the list? Just ask. Or, you can go look  
over at www.sysabend.org/champions.  I've been slowly 
posting information about the list there. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp3.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp3.erols.com ip 207.172.3.236 
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:08:25 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: "'Champions Mail List'" <CHAMP-L@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Miss Direction  
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Ron Ablitz wrote, responding to my response to Rog: 
 
> > > 3)  If she buys the x2 mass option on XDM, does she have 
> > > to purchase it for UAO as well? 
> > 
> > I assume that you mean to ask, "If she buys the x2 mass option on XDM, 
> > does she have to pay the +1 UAO for it as well?"  The answer is, of 
> > course, yes.  Advantages always apply to the entire power.   
> > 
> The question was refering to the effect *2 mass for +1/4 that UAO has in 
its desripition. 
 
OIC.  Since the mass option on UAO is not relevant for characters, then  
so long as the power is only used against sentient beings, the answer is  
"no."  If the power is later on to be used against vehicles, then the  
answer would become, "yes," IMHO, of course. 
 
Rog wrote: 
 
>  
> ---------- 
> From:  Robert A. West [SMTP:robtwest@erols.com] 
> Sent:  Sunday, April 12, 1998 11:42 PM 
> Rog wrote: 
> > Miss Direction has the mystical ability to reorient any moving 
> > physical object from its original path to move in another 
> > direction. 
> Many SFX questions: Why can't she rotate an object that is stationary with respect to the local reference frame?  Can she rotate an object's  
motion with respec 
> She can rotate objects in motion>  relative to the Earth.  She may 
> learn to affect stationary objects in the future, but hey she's only 
> 16, give her a chance, she's still testing her abilities and she 
> can currently only affect with objects that already have a momentum 
>  
> > I am thinking of constructing this power as: 
> > XDM(change orientation), UAO(+1), Ranged(+1/2), 
> > only vs physical objects/beings(-?), 
> > only vs moving objects/beings(-?) 
> Why XDM?  The target is not leaving normal space-time.  This is an 
> extremely powerful effect, that can deal out significant amounts of 
> damage.  I would point it as 
> 40      12" Teleport UAO(+1) Ranged(+1/2) Rotate only(-1/2) 
>                 Defense = having teleport or moving > the teleport. 
>  
> The special effect is that the object is rotated and now has its velocity in the new direction.  It requires more END to rotate a faster  
moving object, which s 
> Why 12" of Teleport> ?  She is not moving the target any distance, 
> only changing its bearing.  And how do you see this costing more 
> END the faster an object is moving?  [That's not a bad idea but 
> I don't see how this reflects that, unless you mean that different 
> levels of Teleport are used for different speeds] 
 
Exactly.  The idea is that the teleport substitutes its own move in the  
indicated direction for the original movement, so you need at least  
enough teleport to match the movement rate of the victim.  If there is  
not some limit on this power, it simply becomes a way to deal out huge  
amounts of damage on the cheap. 
>  
> <snip> 
> Assume that Rhino is running at 12", and he has a SPD of 4.  He is travelling 48"/turn = 4"/segment.  This means that he comes to a stop in  
less than a segment 
>         It may not bother Rhino, but what about Mr Speed, a physically weak 
>         character who can move up to 20"/6 SPD (only along the ground). 
>         Weeeee......way up!   Long way down!  Can you say Scrunch!! ? 
>         <evil HM grin> 
 
Lessee....20"x6/12=10"/segment.  This gives 2 segments up, 2 down and  
10" vertical (using my chart) for 10D6 damage.  Using the BBB table, Mr.  
Speed goes up and comes down 15", so we use the LONG FALLS formula, with  
1D6 for every 1"/segment: 10D6 -- whatta coinkidink! 
 
BTW, this is why I suggest strongly that there be some underlying  
movement power underneath this.  If we allow your construct 
 
35	XDM UAO(+1) At Range(+1/2) 
 
we are dealing out damage on the cheap, and forcing Mr. Speed to lose a  
couple of phases.  If we use my construct, 
 
67	20" Teleport UAO(+1) At Range(+1/2) Not through solid(-1/2) 
 
you are paying a bit more than for a 10D6 energy blast, but getting more  
mileage (so to speak) out of it. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp3.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp3.erols.com ip 207.172.3.236 
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 19:26:18 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Precog Gadgeteer 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
OK, my turn.  I have a gadgeteer who must, by special effect, select his  
weapons in advance.  He also has a limited precognition that allows him  
to coincidentally select exactly the right things for what he will need.  
 "I get this odd feeling that I should take a proton depolarizer  
tonight." 
 
My representation is: 
 
50	50 point VPP, based on Gadgeteering Skill 
37	Control 0 Phase(+1) No Skill Roll(+1) 
	Not reconfigurable (-1 to advantages) Restricted Powers(-1/2) 
 
The SFX is that, during play, any uncommitted points may suddenly become  
anything, but a reconfiguration requires a normal gadgeteering roll. 
 
Any comments or better suggestions? 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp3.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp3.erols.com ip 207.172.3.236 
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 20:12:41 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
GoldRushG wrote: 
>  
>  
>   Btw, I have written a new Perk: Fringe benefit -- Local/State Police Powers. 
 
Neww?  My copy of the Hero System Rules contains the perk "Local Police  
Powers" on page 44, three entries above "Federal/National Police Powers." 
 
 
>  
>   Well, that's a total of 54 Pts for just the bare bones basic Skills and 
> Perks, and does not include Stats, other specialty Packages or any equipment 
> (if you have the character pay for those; some campaigns/genres don't require 
> it) 
 
I see that you like the style of character creation that demands a  
Photography skill to use a camera!  Seriously, to assert that a  
reasonable treatment of police is not possible under 200 points is to  
assert that all games involving superpowers *must* reduce police to  
characatures that have no function other than to call the supers.  It  
makes the job of running a low-power campaign more difficult, not less. 
 
<putting on my asbestos suit> ;-) 
I also see that you have left out some vital real-world police skills:   
 
Acting.		This skill is essential when lying on the witness stand. 
Bribery.  	This skill covers soliciting as well as making bribes. 
Interrogation.	The third degree, using modern techniques. 
Inventor.	Useful to manufacture evidence. 
Sleight of Hand	Used to plant evidence during traffic stops. 
AK: Donut Shops. 
 
Be sure to include these, and others, in "Dark Humor Champions." ;-) 
 
<checking my Life Support: Flame a second time...> 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo25.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo25.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.69 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:15:22 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 1 
 
<< New?  My copy of the Hero System Rules contains the perk "Local Police  
Powers" on page 44, three entries above "Federal/National Police Powers." >> 
 
  If you reread my post, you will see that I listed it as Local/State, and 
that it is defined to include (Concealed) Weapon Permit. That is essentially a 
new description of an existing Perk. 
 
<< I see that you like the style of character creation that demands a 
Photography skill to use a camera! >> 
 
  The use of sarcasm disguised as humor do nothing to endear yourself to me. I 
take the time to post information in order to share our ideas and give a 
glimpse to works in progress. I can appreciate your opinions about the way we 
are suggesting designing peace officers for Law & Order, but you and several 
others seem to be missing the point of it all... 
 
  The way we suggested is not the ONLY way to design cops. We are portraying a 
simulation of a "realistic" cop in Hero System terms. It is not appropriate 
for use in all genres nor even in all campaigns within a single genre. Nor 
will it be the only suggested method in the book. 
 
  However, for those who have ever wondered "What are *all* the Hero System 
skills the are appropriate for a cop?" or "What should my character have if I 
want him to be just like a real cop?" we are providing a very detailed 
example. If you disagree with the way we've designed it, that's fine. However, 
everyone has a different style of gaming with the Hero System, and to 
criticize one method of portraying what is a very complex character archetype 
(believ it or not) seems a bit shortsighted. 
 
<< Seriously, to assert that a reasonable treatment of police is not possible 
under 200 points... >> 
 
  I NEVER asserted that a reasonable treatment of police is not possible under 
200 points. You have inferred that, and incorrectly so. I will refer again to 
my comments above. 
 
<< ...is to assert that all games involving superpowers *must* reduce police 
to  
characatures that have no function other than to call the supers. >> 
 
  That is, for the most part, a very important aspect of the genre. For if law 
enforcement (as a whole) were as capable in the comics as it is in real life, 
many times there would be no need to call the superheroes. Period. But that 
certainly wouldn't be much fun for a superhero PC in such a campaign. 
 
<< It makes the job of running a low-power campaign more difficult, not 
less.>> 
 
  What does? Our detailed write-up of a cop? How so? No one is forcing you to 
use our detailed cop write-up. You still have the free will to use whatever 
kind of write-ups you think are appropriate to your game. Please do not 
mistake our intention of providing the "ultimate cop" as being the end-all be 
all of copdom in the Hero System. 
 
  As I said, the full, detailed write-up is not appropriate to all genres. But 
I am of the opinion that it is easier to present something meaty and let 
people pick off what they don't like than it is to present something emaciated 
and leave people hungry for more. 
 
<< I also see that you have left out some vital real-world police skills: >> 
<< Acting.		This skill is essential when lying on the witness stand. >> 
<< Bribery.  	This skill covers soliciting as well as making bribes. >> 
<< Interrogation.	The third degree, using modern techniques. >> 
<< Inventor.	 Useful to manufacture evidence. >> 
<< Sleight of Hand	Used to plant evidence during traffic stops. >> 
<< AK: Donut Shops. >> 
 
  We will, in fact, be addressing some of these items in our section on 
corruption. 
 
  Once again, I put forth a plea to all readers... don't make the mistake of 
assuming that just because I have posted one page of info from a work in 
progress that you understand the totality of the project. Many of your 
concerns have already been addressed in the book, I assure you. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo access2.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access2.digex.net ip 205.197.245.193 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 00:18:00 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Gadget Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 2 
 
How would people write up a line gun?  For firing of climbing lines, not 
swing lines. 
 
Would one use Swinging? 
Stretching? 
I know that Ninja Hero talks about using Entangle, but I seems a bit odd 
to create a climbing line with that exact power. 
 
Suggestions? 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hermes.ldd.net from redbf@ldd.net server @hermes.ldd.net ip 209.16.220.10 
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:58:30 -0500 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net 
Organization: GM's R US 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Gadget Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 4 
 
> >For the semi-realistic device I'd actually suggest Clinging. 
> >For the Bat-thing I'd go with limited Flight ("must have stucture over head") 
> 
> 
 
    I agree with these two things. If all  the gun does is allows you to climb better I 
would think of making it a simple plus to the climbing skill. This it the most realistic way 
and how I would do it in a Heroic level campaign.    However, if I was doing it for Super 
Heroes and Batman I would definantly go with Flight or even a multipower for all the 
different possible effects the player could use with the gun. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from cptspith@teleport.com server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35 
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:39:06 -0700 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Organization: Satan's Children 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Gadget Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 8 
 
Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>  
> How would people write up a line gun?  For firing of climbing lines, not 
> swing lines. 
>  
> Would one use Swinging? 
> Stretching? 
> I know that Ninja Hero talks about using Entangle, but I seems a bit odd 
> to create a climbing line with that exact power. 
 
   I have always done this as stretching, with a small limitation.  In 
fact, a line gun is much more limiting than full stretching, since 
basically, it only acts to grab things at a distance (traversing the 
intervening distance is a seperate matter; either a linked movement 
power if the linegun 'auto-retracts', or any existing movement used 
along a path not available without the linegun), and probably can't do 
damage, or perhaps not equivalent damage.  The advantages are that 
attacking the line doesn't damage the character and the linegun 
character couldn't be grabbed while 'grabbing' the target. 
   Anyhow, there are - of course - varying levels of this device, but 
all of them should be some form of stretching, limited to whatever 
degree the sfx dictate.  The primary limitation/advantage to take into 
account is that a targte 'grabbed' with a linegun can only be pulled 
toward the attacker/no actual part of the attacker is grabbable when 
linegun 'stretching' is used.  For convenience's sake, I generally 
consider these two things to cancel out, and concentrate on other 
limitations and sfx of the device. 
 
--  
   "SPOOOOOOOONN!!" 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo relia.net from mhoram@relia.net server @saturn.relia.net ip 207.173.156.8 
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:53:35 -0600 
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 5 
 
Robert A. West wrote: 
 
> I also see that you have left out some vital real-world police skills: 
 
> AK: Donut Shops. 
>  
> Be sure to include these, and others, in "Dark Humor Champions." ;-) 
>  
> <checking my Life Support: Flame a second time...> 
 
Just a comment. I'v been a 7-11 employee- Night Shift for over 4 years. 
The police around here just don't buy donuts...and anytime one does the 
rest of the night shift gives them a really bad time. 
 
And no, I am not of arabic descent. 
 
Aren't stereotypes wonderful.  8) 
 
--  
 
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages, 
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and 
goes through their pockets.    -- Eddy Peters 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo16.mx.aol.com from pat10355@aol.com server @imo16.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.38 
From: Pat10355 <Pat10355@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 02:06:47 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Gadget Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 6 
 
<<How would people write up a line gun?  For firing of climbing lines, not 
swing lines.>> 
 
Try Superleap, with the limitation of only going straight up. As per Steve 
Long somewhere in Dark Champions. That's what I used for one of my archer PC's 
gadget arrows. 
 
Patrick Sweeney 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp1.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp1.erols.com ip 207.172.3.234 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 03:13:14 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 7 
 
GoldRushG wrote: 
>  
> << New?  My copy of the Hero System Rules contains the perk "Local Police 
> Powers" on page 44, three entries above "Federal/National Police Powers." >> 
>  
>   If you reread my post, you will see that I listed it as Local/State, and 
> that it is defined to include (Concealed) Weapon Permit. That is essentially a 
> new description of an existing Perk. 
 
I *did* read your post carefully, and still don't understand what has  
changed.  Maybe I have been running the perks differently from everyone  
else all this time.  Nevertheless, clarity is good: a detailed discussion  
of police powers is appropriate to the book under discussion. 
 
 
>  
> << I see that you like the style of character creation that demands a 
> Photography skill to use a camera! >> 
>  
>   The use of sarcasm disguised as humor do nothing to endear yourself to me. I 
 
I did not mean to give offense, but was trying to make a point.  One is  
supposed to be able to build a skilled normal (which should IMHO include  
most local police) on 50 points or so and a competent normal (a SWAT team  
member, FBI agent, or an officer who is a cut above the rest) on 100 pts. 
 
Now, out comes a statement from you that this cannot be done.  I quote  
you *exactly*: 
 
>   Oh ye of little experience as a cop... ;)  I'm telling you, there is no way 
> to build a realistically portrayed street cop in the Hero System with so few 
> points, unless you are willing to simply group a bunch of unrelated skills 
> under "PS: Cop."  
 
This means that Hero is now introducing a new type of campaign: one in  
which normals are built on Heroic or Superheroic points.  If cops are  
going to be 200 pts, so are doctors, scientists, etc.  Such character  
designs are going to be inappropriate to a supers campaign, unless it is  
very high powered.  This would be fine if there were good guidance on  
building realistic cops for less, but you have just disclaimed that. 
 
 
> Nor will it be the only suggested method in the book. 
 
If there are good suggestions for building realistic cops on 50 points or  
so, that is a Good Thing(tm).   For one thing, it would be a nice  
guide on how to build the non-super side of a superhero.  Your statement  
that I cited above seemed to deride the possibility. 
 
>  
> << Seriously, to assert that a reasonable treatment of police is not possible 
> under 200 points... >> 
>  
>   I NEVER asserted that a reasonable treatment of police is not possible under 
> 200 points. You have inferred that, and incorrectly so. I will refer again to 
> my comments above. 
 
Your statement that I quote above says, to me, exactly and precisely what  
you deny it says.  Since it requires effort to compress a reasonable  
treatment of a skills-based character into 25 or 50 points, help there  
would be of far more interest to me. 
 
And, as you may have guessed, I prefer that my Normals be competent and  
interesting.  That's why I bought Normals Unbound in the first place. 
 
> But that 
> certainly wouldn't be much fun for a superhero PC in such a campaign. 
 
I disagree that real-world police could handle mentalists, teleporting  
thieves, super-bricks, and so on very well. 
 
>  
> << I also see that you have left out some vital real-world police skills: >> 
<snip> 
>  
>   We will, in fact, be addressing some of these items in our section on 
> corruption. 
 
And here I thought I was being funny, with my suggestion for "Dark Humor  
Champions."   
 
> << AK: Donut Shops. >> 
 
Various departments in the Philadelphia area recently inaugurated a  
program of setting up all-night substations in convenience stores and  
donut shops.  Although this was a perfectly sensible suggestion that  
gives those establishments increased security at night and provides  
numerous substations at little cost to the community, the commentators  
and headlines were merciless.  
 
I have frequently had arguments with players who thought that the police  
showed up too quickly (when they didn't want them) and too slowly (when  
they did want them), and were too efficient (when the PCs were doing  
something suspicious).  Will L&O contain suggestions for typical ranges  
of response times, standard procedures, and so on?  I have, I believe, a  
fair grasp of such things, but backup is always nice in more ways than  
one. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo access5.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access5.digex.net ip 205.197.245.196 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 07:32:06 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Gadget Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 10 
 
On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, John Desmarais wrote: 
 
> On Mon, 13 Apr 1998 00:18:00 -0400 (EDT), Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>  
> >How would people write up a line gun?  For firing of climbing lines, not 
> >swing lines. 
> > 
> >Would one use Swinging? 
> >Stretching? 
> >I know that Ninja Hero talks about using Entangle, but I seems a bit odd 
> >to create a climbing line with that exact power. 
> > 
> >Suggestions? 
>  
> Is this the Batman style of fire the gun into the air anywhere in the city and magically  
> catch hold of some structure above you, or a semi-realistic device to help you climb up  
> the side of a building (or similar object)?   
 
The ability to launch a line up a side of a builiding and then climb the 
line. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo access5.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access5.digex.net ip 205.197.245.196 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 07:35:36 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Gadget Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 9 
 
On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, Captain Spith wrote: 
 
> Michael Surbrook wrote: 
> >  
> > How would people write up a line gun?  For firing of climbing lines, not 
> > swing lines. 
> >  
> > Would one use Swinging? 
> > Stretching? 
> > I know that Ninja Hero talks about using Entangle, but I seems a bit odd 
> > to create a climbing line with that exact power. 
>  
>    I have always done this as stretching, with a small limitation.  In 
> fact, a line gun is much more limiting than full stretching, since 
> basically, it only acts to grab things at a distance (traversing the 
> intervening distance is a seperate matter; either a linked movement 
> power if the linegun 'auto-retracts', or any existing movement used 
> along a path not available without the linegun), and probably can't do 
> damage, or perhaps not equivalent damage.  The advantages are that 
> attacking the line doesn't damage the character and the linegun 
> character couldn't be grabbed while 'grabbing' the target. 
 
Any idea was to what sort of values are approprite for these limitations? 
 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2 
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 07:07:15 -0500 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Gadget Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 11 
 
At 12:18 AM 4/13/98 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>How would people write up a line gun?  For firing of climbing lines, not 
>swing lines. 
> 
>Would one use Swinging? 
>Stretching? 
>I know that Ninja Hero talks about using Entangle, but I seems a bit odd 
>to create a climbing line with that exact power. 
> 
>Suggestions? 
 
Super Agents wrote this up as Stretching: 
 
<QUOTE> 
Grapnel Launcher & Retractor - Stretching 4" (That is, 4" line with grapnel 
and retractor motor:  Throw it with a Grab manuever and if it hits the 
retractor hauls the user at 10 STR up the line) 
</QUOTE> 
 
Damon 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo saturn.nildram.co.uk from qts@nildram.co.uk server @saturn.nildram.co.uk ip 195.112.4.22 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Michael Surbrook" <susano@access.digex.net> 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 98 13:35:07  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Gadget Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 12 
 
On Mon, 13 Apr 1998 00:18:00 -0400 (EDT), Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
>How would people write up a line gun?  For firing of climbing lines, not 
>swing lines. 
> 
>Would one use Swinging? 
>Stretching? 
>I know that Ninja Hero talks about using Entangle, but I seems a bit odd 
>to create a climbing line with that exact power. 
 
How about Stretching or Flight? I'd go for the former, having used it 
for magic grappling hooks. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo eamail1.unisys.com from andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com server @eamail1.unisys.com ip 192.61.103.80 
From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: SPD Rules [Long] 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:10:48 -0500 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 14 
 
 
	>Have any players in Puma's game ever bought a Speed higher than 
12? 
 
Occasionally. It meant for speedster characters.  
Think one had a 15 in one of last games ran. 
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
	"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"  
					- Joan of Arc's .sig 
     Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 07:12:51 -0700 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Gadget Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 16 
 
At 12:18 AM 4/13/1998 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>How would people write up a line gun?  For firing of climbing lines, not 
>swing lines. 
> 
>Would one use Swinging? 
>Stretching? 
>I know that Ninja Hero talks about using Entangle, but I seems a bit odd 
>to create a climbing line with that exact power. 
> 
>Suggestions? 
 
   For my own part, I'd recommend a limited form of Flight.  It's also 
possible to build it with limited Stretching as well, but I'd probably lean 
toward Flight. 
 
   My Stretching model: 
 
10" Stretching, Grabs & Pulls Only (-1), Range Penalties (-1/2), OAF (14) 
 
   My Flight model: 
 
10" Flight, Requires Attack Roll (-1/2), Fragile Climbing Line (-1/2), 
Vertical Only (-1), OAF (5) 
 
   The Flight model is not only cheaper, but arguably closer to the actual 
effect of what happens. 
   (Aside to Dave Mattingly: take these down for me, would ya?) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo eamail1.unisys.com from andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com server @eamail1.unisys.com ip 192.61.103.80 
From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: I need a name (oh no, not again! :) 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:20:10 -0500 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 15 
 
Made a character. She has plasma based powers. 
EB, FF, Flight. Don't want a cliche name like Nova 
or Plasma Girl. Any ideas from the peanut gallery? 
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
	"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"  
					- Joan of Arc's .sig 
     Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 07:30:10 -0700 
To: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Precog Gadgeteer 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 17 
 
At 07:26 PM 4/12/1998 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
>OK, my turn.  I have a gadgeteer who must, by special effect, select his  
>weapons in advance.  He also has a limited precognition that allows him  
>to coincidentally select exactly the right things for what he will need.  
> "I get this odd feeling that I should take a proton depolarizer  
>tonight." 
> 
>My representation is: 
> 
>50 50 point VPP, based on Gadgeteering Skill 
>37 Control 0 Phase(+1) No Skill Roll(+1) 
> Not reconfigurable (-1 to advantages) Restricted Powers(-1/2) 
> 
>The SFX is that, during play, any uncommitted points may suddenly become  
>anything, but a reconfiguration requires a normal gadgeteering roll. 
> 
>Any comments or better suggestions? 
 
   1. Take out the No Skill Roll Advantage, and have the character control 
the Pool with Resourcefulness, a new INT-based Skill (which can also be 
useful for pulling MacGyver style stunts).  (Alternately, if he actually 
has Precognition, you could just require a Precog PER Roll, using -1 per 
step down the Time Chart as a Range Modifier.) 
   2. Being able to reset the VPP only at base is a -1/4 Limitation to the 
entire Control Cost (half the value of only being able to allocate the 
points at base, since they can be allocated in the field and only then get 
stuck that way). 
   3. Consider adding Change as Half Phase Action for +1/2 (as opposed to 
+1 for changing as a 0 Phase Action). 
   4. He could probably still use Gadgeteering and related Skills to change 
the devices that he's already pulled out of the Pool, in a normal time 
frame. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 07:43:54 -0700 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: SPD Rules [Long] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 18 
 
At 09:10 AM 4/13/1998 -0500, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA wrote: 
> 
> >Have any players in Puma's game ever bought a Speed higher than 
>12? 
> 
>Occasionally. It meant for speedster characters.  
>Think one had a 15 in one of last games ran. 
 
   In my long history (nearly two decades) of Champions gaming, I've had 
two entities with SPD above 12.  One was an alien supercomputer, and the 
other a mega-powerful wizard designed to give a challenge to a very 
high-powered group. 
   To handle this, I used a rule similar to yours, Keith.  I simply gave a 
Phase on each Segment, and then at the Phases appropriate to SPD-12.  For 
DEX location, I ran the first Phases on full DEX, and then the extras on 
half DEX.  The computer, with its SPD of 30, also had Phases on one-quarter 
DEX (which was 48, so its other Phases were on 24 and 12). 
   The reason I prefer one-quarter and one-half to one-third and two-thirds 
is that it reduces the number of entries on the combat chart.  With this 
system, the computer had entries at 48, 24, and 12; if thirds were used 
instead, it would be at 48, 32, 24 (for the odd-numbered segments), and 16. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo eagle-140.raptor.com from jcalvaneso@raptor.com server @eagle1a.raptor.com ip 209.48.140.11 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 11:09:54 -0400 
From: Justin Calvaneso <jcalvaneso@raptor.com> 
Organization: Raptor Systems 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: I need a name (oh no, not again! :) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 19 
 
Andreano, Keith HIM,VA wrote: 
 
> Made a character. She has plasma based powers. 
> EB, FF, Flight. Don't want a cliche name like Nova 
> or Plasma Girl. Any ideas from the peanut gallery? 
 
    Hemoglobin, Blood Bank, Red Cross... =P 
 
--- 
Justin Calvaneso                  Raptor Systems, Inc. 
Test Lab Technician               a division of Axent Technologies 
jcalvaneso@raptor.com             266 Second Avenue 
(781) 530-2362                    Waltham, MA 02154 
--- 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo send1b.yahoomail.com from johndesmarais@yahoo.com server @send1b.yahoomail.com ip 205.180.60.23 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:12:36 -0700 (PDT) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net 
Subject: Re: I need a name (oh no, not again! :) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 20 
 
---"Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA"  wrote: 
> 
> Made a character. She has plasma based powers. 
> EB, FF, Flight. Don't want a cliche name like Nova 
> or Plasma Girl. Any ideas from the peanut gallery? 
 
 
Afterglow   {Definition: Recombination radiation emitted from a cooling 
plasma when the source of ionization (heating, etc) is removed.} 
 
 
Don't like it?  Here a good source of ideas for other names: 
 
Glossary of Frequently Used Terms in Plasma Physics and Fusion Energy 
Research  <http://www.pppl.gov/~rfheeter/fusion-faq/glossary.html> 
 
or 
 
Frequently Asked Questions about Fusion Research 
<http://fusedweb.pppl.gov/FAQ/fusion-faq.html> 
 
 
 
== 
 
     John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
============================================ 
Got a question about the list?  Just ask.  Or, you can go 
look over at www.sysabend.org/champions.  I've been 
slowly posting information about the list there. 
 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:22:09 -0700 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: I need a name (oh no, not again! :) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 21 
 
At 09:20 AM 4/13/1998 -0500, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA wrote: 
>Made a character. She has plasma based powers. 
>EB, FF, Flight. Don't want a cliche name like Nova 
>or Plasma Girl. Any ideas from the peanut gallery? 
 
   Sunburn? 
   Solar Flare? 
   Hot Stuff? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mln.lib.ma.us from nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us server @mln.lib.ma.us ip 198.112.12.10 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:04:11 -0400 
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us> 
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: I need a name (oh no, not again! :) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 22 
 
 
>Made a character. She has plasma based powers. 
>EB, FF, Flight. Don't want a cliche name like Nova 
>or Plasma Girl. Any ideas from the peanut gallery? 
 
In memory of Wendy O. Williams, who died last week, how about  
"Plasmatic"?  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo shell.infinex.com from rook@shell.infinex.com server rook@shell.infinex.com ip 207.201.8.250 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: I need a name (oh no, not again! :) 
To: andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com (Andreano, Keith         HIM, VA) 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:18:15 -0700 (PDT) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 23 
 
<sigh> looks like we're back to the old method on the reply to thing... oh 
	well... 
 
> Made a character. She has plasma based powers. 
> EB, FF, Flight. Don't want a cliche name like Nova 
> or Plasma Girl. Any ideas from the peanut gallery? 
> 
	What's the character's personality? History? 
Culture? Favorite Ice Cream? Favorite Author? Favorite Book? 
Etc...  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo vega.iii.com from ajackson@iii.com server @vega.iii.com ip 192.33.187.51 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:21:40 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Power Question: Gas Cloud 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 24 
 
Stainless Steel Rat writes: 
> > not to mention being redundant with continuous. 
>  
> That is an interesting point... if Continuing Charges requires that an 
> instant power be made Continuous, should Damage Shield have the same 
> requirement?  Or is this subsumed as part of the trade-off with the "free" 
> No Range limitation? 
 
This would seem to be taken as part of the 'free' no range limitation.  
Actually, a 'continuous uncontrolled' power bought with damage shield would 
presumably hit anyone attacking the person with the damage shield with an 
uncontrolled cumulative attack. 
>  
> A Continuous power used offensively requires a half-phase action (I would 
> want to double-check the BBB to be sure whether or not it counts as an 
> attack action) to maintain it, and it requires line of sight to the target 
> of the power (moot for this particular power).  If you wish to "detach" the 
> power, you also need Uncontrolled. 
 
While that may have been errata'd, at least my version of the BBB doesn't 
mention any requirements beyond remaining within the normal range limits of the 
power. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2 
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: I need a name (oh no, not again! :) 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:43:45 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 25 
 
Her name need not correspond with her powers.  There are tons of comic book 
examples for characters whose names have no direct correlation with their 
powers.  What is her personality like?  (arguably Apocalypse)  What are her 
likes and interests?  (Thanos)  Her goals?  (the Leader)  Her purpose? 
(C:NM's Guard organization or even the Sentinel robots)  Is there a word or 
phrase that she uses often? (Ultra Girl used the word 'Ultra' in practically 
every sentence)  Is her ID public?  If so, she might play off of her birth 
name and/or occupation. (Doc Sampson)   If it lends itself, she might even 
simply use her first name. (Jesus, Madonna) ;) 
 
Jason Goode  
 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From:	Bob Greenwade [SMTP:bob.greenwade@klock.com] 
> Sent:	Monday, April 13, 1998 11:22 AM 
> To:	'Champions' 
> Subject:	Re: I need a name (oh no, not again! :) 
>  
> At 09:20 AM 4/13/1998 -0500, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA wrote: 
> >Made a character. She has plasma based powers. 
> >EB, FF, Flight. Don't want a cliche name like Nova 
> >or Plasma Girl. Any ideas from the peanut gallery? 
>  
>    Sunburn? 
>    Solar Flare? 
>    Hot Stuff? 
> --- 
> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
> Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail1.geo.net from lizard@mrlizard.com server @mail1.geo.net ip 166.90.101.11 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:50:35 -0700 
To: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com&> 
        andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com (Andreano, Keith         HIM, VA) 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: I need a name (oh no, not again! :) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 26 
 
At 09:18 AM 4/13/98 -0700, Brian Wong wrote: 
><sigh> looks like we're back to the old method on the reply to thing... oh 
>	well... 
> 
>> Made a character. She has plasma based powers. 
>> EB, FF, Flight. Don't want a cliche name like Nova 
>> or Plasma Girl. Any ideas from the peanut gallery? 
>> 
>	What's the character's personality? History? 
>Culture? Favorite Ice Cream? Favorite Author? Favorite Book? 
>Etc...  
> 
Good point. A hero doesn't need a power-related name. Motive is a good 
source -- Avenger, Defender, Justicar, etc. Are there any unique or 
interesting special effect to the power which could inspire a name? Is 
there an older hero/ine the character admires, perhaps with totally 
different powers, that she could 'take up the mantle of'? "I am...the NEW 
Golden Fury!" Etc. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail.interhop.net from jprins@interhop.net server root@mail.interhop.net ip 204.50.138.29 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:09:16 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: I need a name (oh no, not again! :) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 27 
 
>> Made a character. She has plasma based powers. 
>> EB, FF, Flight. Don't want a cliche name like Nova 
>> or Plasma Girl. Any ideas from the peanut gallery? 
>> 
>	What's the character's personality? History? 
>Culture? Favorite Ice Cream?  
 
I can just see it: The superheroine Strawberry Ripple... 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo24.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo24.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.68 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:40:55 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< Maybe I have been running the perks differently from everyone else all this 
time.  Nevertheless, clarity is good: a detailed discussion of police powers 
is appropriate to the book under discussion. >> 
 
  And that is what we are trying to do. The reason I have clearly defined it 
as including the (Concealed) Weapon Permits is because several Hero products 
have included cops which had both Police Powers and Weapons Permit. That's a 
redundancy that I am simply trying to eliminate. 
 
<< One is supposed to be able to build a skilled normal... on 50 points or so 
and a competent normal... on 100 pts. >> 
 
  For the superhero genre and limited others, yes. But that's not what I am 
discussing. 
 
<< Now, out comes a statement from you that this cannot be done.  I quote  
you *exactly*: >> 
 
>   Oh ye of little experience as a cop... ;)  I'm telling you, there is no 
way 
> to build a realistically portrayed street cop in the Hero System with so few 
points 
 
  Thank you for making my point for me. I stand by that statement, but you 
obviously misunderstand what I've said. Allow me to restate it with added 
emphasis (my own): 
 
  There is no way to build a REALISTICALLY PORTRAYED street cop in the Hero 
System with so few points. <LOL> 
 
  Now, I fully understand what you're saying, but please acknowledge this -- I 
never said that this was the only way to portray cops in the Hero System. 
Indeed, for some genres you certainly don't want the full-blown "realistic 
cop" write-up. Why is there so much confusion about this? 
 
<< This means that Hero is now introducing a new type of campaign: >> 
 
  This is something that you have stated based on incorrect interpretation of 
my comments and postings. I never said that there was a new campaign (other 
than the San Angelo campaign setting, of course <G>). 
 
<< ...one in which normals are built on Heroic or Superheroic points. If cops 
are  
going to be 200 pts, so are doctors, scientists, etc. >> 
 
  If that's what it took for a full, accurate "real world" write-up then I 
wouldn't be opposed to it at all. But I think you're overreacting to this 
whole thing. 
 
<< Such character designs are going to be inappropriate to a supers campaign, 
unless it is very high powered. >> 
 
  Not true. Contrary to your apparent opinion, sheer point totals are not the 
only way to guage the relative "power level" of a character. But on the other 
hand, I have already stated several times on this list that this "cop" write- 
up would not be appropriate to all campaigns. So I'm glad to see we both agree 
on that. 
 
<< This would be fine if there were good guidance on building realistic cops 
for less, but you have just disclaimed that. >> 
 
  No I have not. Certainly you can build a functional, though patently 
"unrealistic" cop on less than 100 points, or even 50 points if you want to. I 
am simply saying that these low-point cops will not be accurate portrayals of 
real-world cops. But on the other hand, not every campaign *needs* accurate 
portrayals of real-world cops. 
 
  In Law & Order we're trying to cover a lot of ground and a lot of campaign 
styles. This whole thread is amusing, because it is discussing only one part 
of a great big book! :D 
 
<< I disagree that real-world police could handle mentalists, teleporting 
thieves, super-bricks, and so on very well. >> 
 
  I never claimed that they could. Once again you are making inferences that 
are incorrect, and trying to attribute "claims" to me that I have never made. 
Perhaps I am being too general in my comments? 
 
>   We will, in fact, be addressing some of these items in our section on 
corruption. 
<< And here I thought I was being funny, with my suggestion for "Dark Humor  
Champions."  >> 
 
  Just another example of the fact that there is a lot more to the Law & ORder 
book than just 200 Pt. cops. ;) 
 
<< Will L&O contain suggestions for typical ranges of response times, standard 
procedures, and so on? >> 
 
  Yes, of course. You could use L&O to generate characters for a cop campaign 
if you wanted to. There will be a lot of info, for GMs of nearly every 
campaign style and type. (Note: I said *nearly* every...<G>) 
 
<< I have, I believe, a fair grasp of such things, but backup is always nice 
in more ways than one.>> 
 
  You're telling me? Boy do I have some stories about backup. Whew! <LOL> 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail1.geo.net from lizard@mrlizard.com server @mail1.geo.net ip 166.90.101.11 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:47:21 -0700 
To: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins), champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: I need a name (oh no, not again! :) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 01:09 PM 4/13/98 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
>>> Made a character. She has plasma based powers. 
>>> EB, FF, Flight. Don't want a cliche name like Nova 
>>> or Plasma Girl. Any ideas from the peanut gallery? 
>>> 
>>	What's the character's personality? History? 
>>Culture? Favorite Ice Cream?  
> 
>I can just see it: The superheroine Strawberry Ripple... 
 
I dunno, that's actually a cool name. I can see it for a late 60s/early 70s 
character, actually... 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo shell.infinex.com from rook@shell.infinex.com server rook@shell.infinex.com ip 207.201.8.250 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Strawberry Ripple (Was: I need a name) 
To: lizard@mrlizard.com (Lizard) 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 11:20:22 -0700 (PDT) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> >>> Made a character. 
> >>> 
> >>	What's the character's personality? History? 
> >>Culture? Favorite Ice Cream?  
> > 
> >I can just see it: The superheroine Strawberry Ripple... 
>  
> I dunno, that's actually a cool name. I can see it for a late 60s/early 70s 
> character, actually... 
 
	Right, there's my next character. :) Maybe I'll use that when GMing of 
the game passes from me to one of the other players. :) 
 
	Now I've got to figure out just what a character with a name like that 
would be like. 
	Why is it I can't get that 'Strawberry Fields' Beattles song out of my 
head? :) 
	This'll be fun. :) A perfect compliment to 'Angel Dust', 'Rasta Man', 
and some of my other such characters. :) 
 
 
Rook ?U ?k 1b  'no giga pets were harmed in the production of this message'. 
 __ 
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html	Super Hero Links 
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/			Super Hero Roleplay 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo eamail1.unisys.com from andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com server @eamail1.unisys.com ip 192.61.103.80 
From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: I need a name (oh no, not again! :) 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:24:52 -0500 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
	>	What's the character's personality? History? 
	>Culture? Favorite Ice Cream? Favorite Author? Favorite Book? 
	>Etc...  
 
Personality: 
	Aggressive and tough, but this is to conceal the fact 
	that she is very insecure and unsure of herself and 
	her abilities. She is only 18 and big nasty people 
	are trying to kill her (Viper, Genocide). 
 
History:  
	(Very abbreviated version) Powers manifested 1st year 
	in college. Got involved with "plot" on campus. Starts 
	out small and snowballs quick with Viper being involved. 
	Genocide shows up (She is a Mutant) and all hell breaks 
	loose. The bad guys mostly kill each other (^_^) and when 
	the smoke clears she is left standing and gets the credit! 
	She looks good on TV (COM 20) so the press eat it up! 
	She thinks she didn't do much, but she actually did well, 
	especially considering how young/inexperienced/out 
	classed she was. There's more, but that's all for now... 
 
Culture: 
	American middle class suburban. 
 
Favorite Ice Cream: 
	Just about anything with chocolate. 
 
Favorite Author/Favorite Book: 
	Just about anything on her hero, Joan of Arc. 
 
Motivation: 
	Stop injustice/evil. 
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
	"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"  
					- Joan of Arc's .sig 
     Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail.interhop.net from jprins@interhop.net server root@mail.interhop.net ip 204.50.138.29 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:30:57 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
><< Maybe I have been running the perks differently from everyone else all this 
>time.  Nevertheless, clarity is good: a detailed discussion of police powers 
>is appropriate to the book under discussion. >> 
> 
>  And that is what we are trying to do. The reason I have clearly defined it 
>as including the (Concealed) Weapon Permits is because several Hero products 
>have included cops which had both Police Powers and Weapons Permit. That's a 
>redundancy that I am simply trying to eliminate. 
 
I hope you're going to cover more than just the US Police forces (I think 
you will, but I want to be clear on this). A good paragraph on how forces 
differ in powers/restrictions/operational procedure for European nations, 
Asian countries, etc. would be _greatly_ appreciated, I'll tell you! 
 
>  Thank you for making my point for me. I stand by that statement, but you 
>obviously misunderstand what I've said. Allow me to restate it with added 
>emphasis (my own): 
> 
>  There is no way to build a REALISTICALLY PORTRAYED street cop in the Hero 
>System with so few points. <LOL> 
> 
>  Now, I fully understand what you're saying, but please acknowledge this -- I 
>never said that this was the only way to portray cops in the Hero System. 
>Indeed, for some genres you certainly don't want the full-blown "realistic 
>cop" write-up. Why is there so much confusion about this? 
 
Perhaps because the HERO system (not just Champions) encourages you to build 
a Medical Doctor on 6 points (Paramedic, KS: Medicine 11-, License). My 
brother's a MD; a 'realistically portrayed' MD would cost as much or more 
than a 'realistically portrayed' Police Officer. But that's neither here nor 
there. Way back when _I_ originally got outraged at the concept of a 200 
point cop; _I_ was talking about overpriced agents (from Genocide). A flip 
remark (which you corrected and explained later to my total satisfaction) on 
your part made it seem like you were proposing 200 point agent-level cops in 
superhero games.  
 
>  Not true. Contrary to your apparent opinion, sheer point totals are not the 
>only way to guage the relative "power level" of a character. But on the other 
>hand, I have already stated several times on this list that this "cop" write- 
>up would not be appropriate to all campaigns. So I'm glad to see we both agree 
>on that. 
 
Right. 
 
><< This would be fine if there were good guidance on building realistic cops 
>for less, but you have just disclaimed that. >> 
> 
>  No I have not. Certainly you can build a functional, though patently 
>"unrealistic" cop on less than 100 points, or even 50 points if you want to. I 
>am simply saying that these low-point cops will not be accurate portrayals of 
>real-world cops. But on the other hand, not every campaign *needs* accurate 
>portrayals of real-world cops. 
 
Well, it depends on your definition of 'accurate' and how broad you allow 
PS: Police Officer to be. Remember, this is the system of 6 point doctors! 
 
>  In Law & Order we're trying to cover a lot of ground and a lot of campaign 
>styles. This whole thread is amusing, because it is discussing only one part 
>of a great big book! :D 
 
Which I look forward to. I'm a Canadian, and the number of police groups in 
the United States amazes me: County Sheriffs (elected! <boggle!!>), FBI 
Special Agents, Bureau of Alcohol, Firearms and Tobacco, Secret Service, 
Treasury Department, US Marshals, Texas Rangers, etcetera. I'm sure you 
Yankees are wondering about our RCMP (and Ontario and Quebec provincial 
police). I expect this book to give the skinny on all these organizations. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo vega.iii.com from ajackson@iii.com server @vega.iii.com ip 192.33.187.51 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 11:41:23 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: I need a name (oh no, not again! :) 
To: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
Cc: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA writes: 
> Favorite Author/Favorite Book: 
>      Just about anything on her hero, Joan of Arc. 
 
Oh my.  Hm...I don't know an awful lot about Joan of Arc, but I'd be surprised 
if you can't find some idea for a name here ;). 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Gadget Question 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 13 Apr 1998 14:53:58 -0400 
Lines: 28 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Michael Surbrook writes: 
 
> How would people write up a line gun?  For firing of climbing lines, not 
> swing lines. 
 
For a simple climbing line, I would use a few skill levels with the 
Climbing skill. 
 
For a winch, I would use Stretching with a lot of non-combat multiples.  A 
realistic winch would have its own Strength, which would determine how much 
it can lift. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNTJfQp6VRH7BJMxHAQFojQP+KhPVPo6IlzKDnoH4ZqIjE9hadcf7x+NL 
ndU34gxynlCWtgbs5NWR8SRSGa4T83DJEM33lEsQwV+wJE4NkL3ne5QcPl+q13NT 
AgRy4/v5E+wNVl5g9vzEQ5h36tJ4V3y1T0rU04si75AEJO8ezDgXdQyQgt46JzWG 
Y8XK2UChoJc= 
=ncLo 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo eagle-140.raptor.com from jcalvaneso@raptor.com server @eagle1a.raptor.com ip 209.48.140.11 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:02:15 -0400 
From: Justin Calvaneso <jcalvaneso@raptor.com> 
Organization: Raptor Systems 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
GoldRushG wrote: 
 
>   No I have not. Certainly you can build a functional, though patently 
>   "unrealistic" cop on less than 100 points, or even 50 points if you want to. I 
>   am simply saying that these low-point cops will not be accurate portrayals of 
>   real-world cops. But on the other hand, not every campaign *needs* accurate 
>   portrayals of real-world cops. 
> 
    Yupyup. I completely agree. While, IMHO, most of the skills you've chosen for 
your COP *are* appropriate, they're just not necessary for an NPC. If I were 
running the game, I wouldn't bother with so much detail for some Cop NPC's unless 
she/he was a DNPC, teammate,  or something similar. A player, on the other hand, 
should definately go to this level of detail if they plan on playing a Cop PC. I 
guess it's a question of resolution. I prefer my NPC's to occupy fewer pixels than 
the PC's, so the extra attention to minscule detail would never see in game use. 
 
--- 
Justin Calvaneso                  Raptor Systems, Inc. 
Test Lab Technician               a division of Axent Technologies 
jcalvaneso@raptor.com             266 Second Avenue 
(781) 530-2362                    Waltham, MA 02154 
--- 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail1.geo.net from lizard@mrlizard.com server @mail1.geo.net ip 166.90.101.11 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:10:26 -0700 
To: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com&> 
        "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: RE: I need a name (oh no, not again! :) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 01:24 PM 4/13/98 -0500, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA wrote: 
>Favorite Author/Favorite Book: 
>	Just about anything on her hero, Joan of Arc. 
> 
This is a good hook. Crusader? Arcfire? (Bad pun...) Firesword? 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail.interhop.net from jprins@interhop.net server root@mail.interhop.net ip 204.50.138.29 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:11:33 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Strawberry Ripple (Was: I need a name) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>> >>	What's the character's personality? History? 
>> >>Culture? Favorite Ice Cream?  
>> > 
>> >I can just see it: The superheroine Strawberry Ripple... 
>>  
>> I dunno, that's actually a cool name. I can see it for a late 60s/early 70s 
>> character, actually... 
> 
>Right, there's my next character. :) Maybe I'll use that when GMing of 
>the game passes from me to one of the other players. :) 
> 
>Now I've got to figure out just what a character with a name like that 
>would be like. 
>Why is it I can't get that 'Strawberry Fields' Beattles song out of my 
>head? :) 
>This'll be fun. :) A perfect compliment to 'Angel Dust', 'Rasta Man', 
>and some of my other such characters. :) 
 
Aagh, I've created a monster...I just wonder what sort of propositions such 
a character would have to endure...^_^ 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:15:13 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Hero Universe 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> > It's 20 meters tall, covered with ultrahardium armor, carriers enough 
> > missiles to destroy a city...and it's sentient and casts spells. How many 
> > smegging points is THAT worth? 
> > 
> > (Hmmm...excpet for the spells, that would pretty much describe a 
> > Transformer, so maybe it isn't so Munchkin...) 
> 
> well if i pay heaps of points for it, it isn't munchkinny at all, yes? 
 
	Well, I think I'd allow it only as a GM-controlled construct to 
give the players hell, but that's me. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:17:43 -0700 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: I need a name (oh no, not again! :) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 01:24 PM 4/13/1998 -0500, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA wrote: 
>Favorite Author/Favorite Book: 
> Just about anything on her hero, Joan of Arc. 
 
   For me, regarding this character, the name Immolatrix is suggested here. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:23:03 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 02:30 PM 4/13/1998 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
>>  In Law & Order we're trying to cover a lot of ground and a lot of campaign 
>>styles. This whole thread is amusing, because it is discussing only one part 
>>of a great big book! :D 
> 
>Which I look forward to. I'm a Canadian, and the number of police groups in 
>the United States amazes me: County Sheriffs (elected! <boggle!!>), FBI 
>Special Agents, Bureau of Alcohol, Firearms and Tobacco, Secret Service, 
>Treasury Department, US Marshals, Texas Rangers, etcetera. I'm sure you 
>Yankees are wondering about our RCMP (and Ontario and Quebec provincial 
>police). I expect this book to give the skinny on all these organizations. 
 
   Just on three quick points here: 
   1. Elected county Sheriffs are mostly just administrators.  Some in 
particularly rural areas are actually active in the field, but they're the 
exception rather than the rule. 
   2. That's Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF). 
   3. Texas Rangers are basically just the state police; someone who's 
actually from Texas could probably clarify further.  (Most other states use 
the term State Police, though California and I think a couple of others 
call it Highway Patrol.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 13 Apr 1998 15:23:38 -0400 
Lines: 30 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Justin Calvaneso writes: 
 
>     Yupyup. I completely agree. While, IMHO, most of the skills you've 
> chosen for your COP *are* appropriate, they're just not necessary for an 
> NPC. 
 
Not to mention being unnecessary in general. :) 
 
For instance, a cop's knowledge of "law" is extremely narrow and limited. 
If he already has a skill that includes "standard procedures", which I 
would subsume under "Professional Skill: Police Officer", he does not need 
a separate "KS: Law" skill.  He is a cop, not a lawyer.  His job is to 
enforce certain laws (procedures), not interpret them (lawyer). 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNTJmOZ6VRH7BJMxHAQFZgwP/cvsBLDXnQNMojUjVhU7bWR+Jezpqp111 
RfVsZJzsWoE/obRnvUvJrkY5Yb7fYLS4DwMo5QU6XLXZBHnDOZhaKBja8r55xYqd 
hFocSh6cTom5TjHfKCpWVhKhu8dGTWAkkSg4z1ixhmvvdZ+4TfFaDMHQgXtzk8En 
PUEi2P3iZ+E= 
=4C3d 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:28:32 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
>   I came up with a total even higher than that. And let's not talk about given 
> them a separate Martial Arts Style package for each appropriate weapon (as per 
> UMA)! <LOL> 
 
	Eh?  They don't need to rebuy maneuvers if they are the same 
mechanically as another, though skills would have to be purchased for 
each.  That's what I remember from NH and UMA, anyway. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hil-img-9.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @hil-img-9.compuserve.com ip 149.174.177.139 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:30:14 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Strawberry Ripple 
Cc: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id PAA06268 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Strawberry Ripple sounds to me like a red-headed female super who has 
seismic/earth control powers, maybe creating "ripples" along the ground to 
knock people off their feet. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail3.bunt.com from uraeus@mail3.bunt.com server @mail3.bunt.com ip 195.178.0.27 
From: Rog <uraeus@mail3.bunt.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: I need a name (oh no, not again! :) 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:54:34 +0200 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
How about d'Arc?  (plasma "Arc";  Joan d'Arc; get it?) 
Or the Radio City Music Hall Arc-ette? heh heh 
 
-Roger 
---------- 
From:  Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA [SMTP:andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com] 
Sent:  Monday, April 13, 1998 8:25 PM 
 
<snip> 
Favorite Author/Favorite Book: 
	Just about anything on her hero, Joan of Arc. 
<snip> 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Strawberry Ripple 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 13 Apr 1998 16:04:12 -0400 
Lines: 25 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
David B Stallard writes: 
 
> Strawberry Ripple sounds to me like a red-headed female super who has 
> seismic/earth control powers, maybe creating "ripples" along the ground to 
> knock people off their feet. 
 
Nah... she's a mentalist with a somewhat nutty sense of humor.  Rocky 
Road... now that is a brick :). 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNTJvu56VRH7BJMxHAQFwgQQAsnCXmPB9/KSPLF59Ik2U4GtzKJhKB8PK 
UL4Il60hCIm/ZOARL5sRtTHYhDyip0epCFMfj+Irx0n7YODgILSDLIGSl46rK3lw 
gm0pDAISsmdIYpP/OUf/5p1vcQ+gA/minpvL51pH+jRi/Z2+YSv2V5vrlgHuRPzz 
QLaruhZKkvk= 
=0gTn 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail.ucsf.edu from dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu server @mail.ucsf.EDU ip 128.218.95.23 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:05:29 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Dennis C Hwang <dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu> 
To: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
cc: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com&> 
        "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: I need a name (oh no, not again! :) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, Lizard wrote: 
 
> At 01:24 PM 4/13/98 -0500, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA wrote: 
> >Favorite Author/Favorite Book: 
> >	Just about anything on her hero, Joan of Arc. 
> > 
> This is a good hook. Crusader? Arcfire? (Bad pun...) Firesword? 
 
How about Lightning Sword of Justice? 
 
--Dennis 
************************************************************* 
*   dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu   *   xenopathologist at large!   * 
************************************************************* 
*   So...you're keeping me alive because you don't know     * 
*   DOS.                                                    * 
*                                                           * 
*                       --Izzy to Gabriel                   * 
*                         THE PROPHECY II                   * 
************************************************************* 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail1.geo.net from lizard@mrlizard.com server @mail1.geo.net ip 166.90.101.11 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:52:20 -0700 
To: Dennis C Hwang <dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu> 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: RE: I need a name (oh no, not again! :) 
Cc: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com&> 
        "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 01:05 PM 4/13/98 -0700, Dennis C Hwang wrote: 
>On Mon, 13 Apr 1998, Lizard wrote: 
> 
>> At 01:24 PM 4/13/98 -0500, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA wrote: 
>> >Favorite Author/Favorite Book: 
>> >	Just about anything on her hero, Joan of Arc. 
>> > 
>> This is a good hook. Crusader? Arcfire? (Bad pun...) Firesword? 
> 
>How about Lightning Sword of Justice? 
> 
Nah, that's a goofy name. :) 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:02:46 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: COM rules [Really Long!] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> > Also, PRE attacks can be used to inspire, lead, cause fear, etc - they're 
> > a lot more versatile than a COM attack, which can basically be used to 
> > seduce. 
> 
> Perhaps it would be better simply to change Seduction to a COM-based 
> skill, and be done with it... 
 
	The problem is that Seduction is a whole lot more than COM.  I'd 
perhaps allow a Com roll as a supplimentary skill roll. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-SMTP: helo dillinger.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@dillinger.io.com ip 199.170.88.11 
X-Authentication-Warning: dillinger.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:04:08 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Strawberry Ripple 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On 13 Apr 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> David B Stallard writes: 
>  
> > Strawberry Ripple sounds to me like a red-headed female super who has 
> > seismic/earth control powers, maybe creating "ripples" along the ground to 
> > knock people off their feet. 
>  
> Nah... she's a mentalist with a somewhat nutty sense of humor.  Rocky 
> Road... now that is a brick :). 
 
Supers based off of ice cream...gah... 
 
Well, here's some based off of Ben & Jerry's flavors... 
 
Cool Brittania - Young, long-haired English guy with Cosmic Rollerblades 
     and a high-fashion wardrobe. 
 
Chunky Monkey - This simian was rocketed into space in an effort to 
     reproduce the accident that gave the Fantastic Four their powers. 
     Amazingly, it worked, granting the orangutan (Ook!) both a rocky 
     exterior and an incredible intellect. (Note that the press gave him 
     the name - he hates it and will thrash anyone that refers to him as 
     a 'monkey'.) 
 
Chubby Hubby - Famous villain the Blob gets married, settles down, and 
     straightens out, eventually using his super-weight and 
     immobility powers as a force for good. 
 
Holy Cannoli - A defrocked and irreverant Italian priest, he specializes 
     in fighting vampires, ghosts and other supernatural creatures. 
 
J 
 
"One equal temper of heroic hearts,              http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will              jeffj@io.com 
 To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."    - Tennyson, "Ulysses" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo out1.ibm.net from john.desmarais@ibm.net server @out1.ibm.net ip 165.87.194.252 
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Lizard" <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 98 21:06:18  
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Strawberry Ripple 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:08:15 -0700, Lizard wrote: 
 
>Does anyone want to host a web site containing all the characters built 
>around the name 'Strawberry Ripple'? It would be an interesting look at how 
>to go from name to concept to character sheet, and how many different paths 
>there are to get there... 
> 
 
There are, in the world, people in need of intense psychological help... 
 
 
 
 
 
 
      John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysanbend,org> 
================================================= 
Gotta question about the list? Just ask. Or, you can go look  
over at www.sysabend.org/champions.  I've been slowly 
posting information about the list there. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:12:08 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: "INTERNET:champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Hero Plus printed versions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> I noticed that you can buy printed, 3-hole punched versions of the Hero 
> Plus stuff, but these are really expensive.  Are the prices this high 
> because they are bigger than your average sourcebook, or because of color 
> art, or some other reason?  I know that the first Hero Plus book (Ultimate 
> Super Mage?) was supposed to be huge, but I don't know if that has been 
> true for later supplements.  Certainly it isn't true for the old books that 
> have been "reprinted" in electronic format. 
 
	I'd say it's probably because they aren't preprinted so Hero is 
forced to have each order printed.  That means no bulk discounts.  These 
are things that would be huge losses were they to be actually reprinted. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:13:53 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> > points are in skills, but once you've bought PS: Police Officer and KS: 
> > Police Procedures and mayyyybe KS: Law, a couple weapon FAMs and Combat 
> > Driving, what have you got left to buy? 
> 
> A few Combat Skill Levels with handguns or firearms in general.  A street 
> cop should be a normal person built on 25 base plus 25 in disadvantages, 
> plus whatever experience he may have earned. 
 
	And considering they're out having what a game would call 
"adventure sessions" about every day or so, they'll build up a lot of XP 
really quickly. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 13 Apr 1998 17:30:20 -0400 
Lines: 25 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Tim R Gilberg writes: 
 
> 	And considering they're out having what a game would call 
> "adventure sessions" about every day or so, they'll build up a lot of XP 
> really quickly. 
 
No, they are doing their jobs, same as teachers, librarians, constructon 
workers, hacks, and Unix sysmonsters. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNTKD6p6VRH7BJMxHAQG09gP/XtTaeXtG9JIB7bzPdsMCMaA3TqYnnQy8 
+Dcd4K6Ftv0aIv3944iir6ybkwv4hfR+Un2G9da+MGV8N7tbyVK1C0oSNgfqknHh 
rNGKKiuwbh2TFjXTahLqhMf80hgaklhyrJnDATpbuH6kslWbgMB10hrBuxldO1Xl 
32BNgpx9blI= 
=yYNl 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo27.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo27.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.71 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:46:40 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Law& Order (was Re: Joe Cop...) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< I hope you're going to cover more than just the US Police forces (I think 
you will, but I want to be clear on this). A good paragraph on how forces 
differ in powers/restrictions/operational procedure for European nations, 
Asian countries, etc. would be _greatly_ appreciated, I'll tell you! >> 
 
  We certainly intend to provide an overview of some police forces from around 
the world, including Interpol (which is not a govt law enforcement agency, per 
se', but is still very cool <G>). The foreign (non-US) agencies will not be 
covered in as much detail as the US agencies, but there will still be a good 
amount of info. 
 
<< Perhaps because the HERO system (not just Champions) encourages you to 
build a Medical Doctor on 6 points (Paramedic, KS: Medicine 11-, License). My 
brother's a MD; a 'realistically portrayed' MD would cost as much or more than 
a 'realistically portrayed' Police Officer. >> 
 
  I would like to see the write-up. 
 
<< But that's neither here nor there. >> 
 
  Yes it most certainly is. That is exactly what we are discussing here. 
 
<< Way back when _I_ originally got outraged at the concept of a 200 point 
cop; _I_ was talking about overpriced agents (from Genocide). A flip remark 
(which you corrected and explained later to my total satisfaction) on your 
part made it seem like you were proposing 200 point agent-level cops in 
superhero games. >> 
 
  They can certainly be used in superhero campaigns. There is nothing 
unbalancing about them at all. In fact, they perform the same in combat as 50 
Pt cops. :/ 
 
<< Well, it depends on your definition of 'accurate' and how broad you allow 
PS: Police Officer to be. >> 
 
  I would think you now know what my definition of realistic is in regards to 
cops: listing all of the Hero System skills they would realistically possess. 
As for PS: Police Officer, I have also declared what I think it is good for 
and what its shortcomings are. 
 
<< Remember, this is the system of 6 point doctors! >> 
 
  This is a system that allows 6 point doctors *and* 200 point cops. Hero 
System is flexible and allows you to customize it quite a bit. Do not rule out 
the full blown "PCs are Cops in an Action Film" campaign, which would 
certainly benefit from the detailed write-ups I suggest. 
 
<< I'm sure you Yankees are wondering about our RCMP (and Ontario and Quebec 
provincial police). >> 
 
  Careful. ;) "Yankees" is a term generally reserved for those of "Northern" 
descent. Them's is fightin' words to a proper red-blodded South'ner! <LOL> 
 
<< I expect this book to give the skinny on all these organizations. >> 
 
  Aye, aye! ;)  And we will be presenting info on the RCMP, as well. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo24.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo24.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.68 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:48:39 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< If I were running the game, I wouldn't bother with so much detail for some 
Cop NPC's unless she/he was a DNPC, teammate,  or something similar. >> 
 
  Well, you've just provided another argument in support of our presenting the 
detailed write-up in the book. Thank you. ;) 
 
<< A player, on the other hand, should definately go to this level of detail 
if they plan on playing a Cop PC. >> 
 
  That's another good reason. :) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail1.geo.net from lizard@mrlizard.com server @mail1.geo.net ip 166.90.101.11 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 14:55:40 -0700 
To: Sakura <jeffj@io.com&> Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: Strawberry Ripple 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:04 PM 4/13/98 -0500, Sakura wrote: 
>On 13 Apr 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
> 
>> David B Stallard writes: 
>>  
>> > Strawberry Ripple sounds to me like a red-headed female super who has 
>> > seismic/earth control powers, maybe creating "ripples" along the 
ground to 
>> > knock people off their feet. 
>>  
>> Nah... she's a mentalist with a somewhat nutty sense of humor.  Rocky 
>> Road... now that is a brick :). 
> 
>Supers based off of ice cream...gah... 
> 
>Well, here's some based off of Ben & Jerry's flavors... 
> 
>Cool Brittania - Young, long-haired English guy with Cosmic Rollerblades 
>     and a high-fashion wardrobe. 
 
You know, I *really* like this one, for some reason. Possibly because I can 
actually envision him as a real PC or NPC... 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo11.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo11.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.33 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:05:06 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< Not to mention being unnecessary in general. :) >> 
 
  Oh boy, here we go again... :D 
 
<< ...a cop's knowledge of "law" is extremely narrow and limited. If he 
already has a skill that includes "standard procedures", which I would subsume 
under "Professional Skill: Police Officer", he does not need a separate "KS: 
Law" skill.  He is a cop, not a lawyer.  His job is to enforce certain laws 
(procedures), not interpret them (lawyer).>> 
 
  I disagree completely (big surprise, eh). A peace officer must understand 
the law in several areas. An officer must understand the elements of crimes as 
defined in the penal code. Why? Because the cop will prosecute the accused? 
No. Because the cop must determine if a crime has been committed at all! 
Sometimes a person does something that the lay person would think was a crime, 
only to find out that no crime is committed. That requires not a simple 
procedure to follow, but a judgement call on the officer's part that results 
from interpreting the law and making factual comparisons. 
 
  What are the exceptions to the search & seizure rules? What are the elements 
of a battery? Of a kidnapping? What about a public disturbance? Who must be 
disturbed for it to be a crime? What is the "reasonable person" theory and how 
does it apply to law enforcement? Under what circumstances can you arrest a 
person on a misdemeanor warrant at night? If a 4 year child says his daddy 
touched his private parts can you arrest the dad on that statement alone? A 
landlord has locked a tenant out of their apartment for being 2 days late on 
the rent. Is that legal? If it is a vilation of the law, is it a violation of 
civil law or criminal law? If your 17 year old son takes the family car 
without permission is that auto theft? 
 
  There are dozens situations a cop deals with every day that require a very 
good knowledge of the law, becuase the cop must make judgement calls (it's 
called "officer's discretion"). The officer must interpret the law to a degree 
to determine if what he/she is dealing with fits into one of the thousands of 
definitions. The law gives the peace officer not just the authority to enforce 
the law and to make arrests, but to some degree the authority to NOT make 
arrests, too. 
 
  I would argue that a cop does, indeed, need KS: Law at the very least. I 
broke it down into KS: Criminal Law 11- and KS: Civil Law 8- because most 
officers are far less familiar with Civil law, though one plain "KS: Law" 
could cover it, I suppose. 
 
  As for PS: Police Officer... it doesn't cut it. I understand PS: Police 
Officer to be primarily procedural, rather than theoretical. 
 
  Peace. :) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo15.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo15.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.37 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:08:12 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< 3. Texas Rangers are basically just the state police; someone who's 
actually from Texas could probably clarify further.  (Most other states use 
the term State Police, though California and I think a couple of others call 
it Highway Patrol.) >> 
 
  The Texas Department of Public Safety handles the typical "state trooper" 
functions, and are the "Highway Patrol" of TX. 
 
  If memory serves, the Texas Rangers started as a paramilitary "national 
police" of sorts in the Republic of Texas. Since their inception, the Rangers 
have been disbanded and reinstated several times. Their most recent 
incarnation is essentially in the role of a state police force, yes. Just a 
trivial FYI. :) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo12.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo12.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.34 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:09:29 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< And considering they're out having what a game would call "adventure 
sessions" about every day or so, they'll build up a lot of XP really quickly. 
>> 
 
  Daily. Absolutely, without question, those officers working the larger urban 
population areas have them daily. ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo16.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo16.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.38 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:14:33 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< No, they are doing their jobs, same as teachers, librarians, constructon 
workers, hacks, and Unix sysmonsters. >> 
 
  Well, so are superheroes. Thus, superhero PCs deserve no experience points 
for their adventrues... ever. Hey, I like that! Prevents the need to revamp 
the villains from time to time. ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from michael.adams@october.com server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
From: Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams) 
Date: 13 Apr 98 14:58:04 -0800 
Subject: Test.. 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
To: hero-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 6 
 
So how is things? Anyone place any Star Trek related games in HERO? 
 
Laters.. 
 
Mike 
 
... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander. 
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from michael.adams@october.com server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
From: Michael.Adams@october.com (Michael Adams) 
Date: 13 Apr 98 15:00:10 -0800 
Subject: Alaska UAF Con - April 
Organization: Fidonet: Red October Alpha * Hero Roleplaying * 408-629-4695 *  
To: hero-l@omg.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 7 
 
Gaming con at UAF (university of alaska fairbanks). April 18-19 all day. 
 
Email me for more info. Looking for GMs.. 
 
Mike 
 
... "Transporter chief , beam the landing party to the bridge" 
___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:02:05 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 06:05 PM 4/13/1998 EDT, GoldRushG wrote: 
>  As for PS: Police Officer... it doesn't cut it. I understand PS: Police 
>Officer to be primarily procedural, rather than theoretical. 
 
   I'd tend to argue that PS: Police Officer would cover all of those Skill 
that a police officer would need no more than Familiarity with, like KS: 
Civil Law and Weaponsmith, just as part of the "package."  If a 
full-fledged Skill is needed, then that would probably need to be taken 
separately. 
 
>  Peace. :) 
 
   "Peace, Officer."  ;-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:04:03 -0700 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Strawberry Ripple 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:04 PM 4/13/1998 -0500, Sakura wrote: 
>> > Strawberry Ripple sounds to me like a red-headed female super who has 
>> > seismic/earth control powers, maybe creating "ripples" along the 
ground to 
>> > knock people off their feet. 
>>  
>> Nah... she's a mentalist with a somewhat nutty sense of humor.  Rocky 
>> Road... now that is a brick :). 
> 
>Supers based off of ice cream...gah... 
> 
>Well, here's some based off of Ben & Jerry's flavors... 
> 
>Cool Brittania - Young, long-haired English guy with Cosmic Rollerblades 
>     and a high-fashion wardrobe. 
> 
>Chunky Monkey - This simian was rocketed into space in an effort to 
>     reproduce the accident that gave the Fantastic Four their powers. 
>     Amazingly, it worked, granting the orangutan (Ook!) both a rocky 
>     exterior and an incredible intellect. (Note that the press gave him 
>     the name - he hates it and will thrash anyone that refers to him as 
>     a 'monkey'.) 
> 
>Chubby Hubby - Famous villain the Blob gets married, settles down, and 
>     straightens out, eventually using his super-weight and 
>     immobility powers as a force for good. 
> 
>Holy Cannoli - A defrocked and irreverant Italian priest, he specializes 
>     in fighting vampires, ghosts and other supernatural creatures. 
 
   Don't forget the African-American killer vigilante, Death By Chocolate. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail1.geo.net from lizard@mrlizard.com server @mail1.geo.net ip 166.90.101.11 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:08:15 -0700 
To: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu&> champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: The Ultimate Strawberry Ripple 
Cc: Ravanos <Ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Does anyone want to host a web site containing all the characters built 
around the name 'Strawberry Ripple'? It would be an interesting look at how 
to go from name to concept to character sheet, and how many different paths 
there are to get there... 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail.interhop.net from jprins@interhop.net server root@mail.interhop.net ip 204.50.138.29 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:15:29 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Law& Order (was Re: Joe Cop...) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
><< I hope you're going to cover more than just the US Police forces (I think 
>you will, but I want to be clear on this). A good paragraph on how forces 
>differ in powers/restrictions/operational procedure for European nations, 
>Asian countries, etc. would be _greatly_ appreciated, I'll tell you! >> 
> 
>  We certainly intend to provide an overview of some police forces from around 
>the world, including Interpol (which is not a govt law enforcement agency, per 
>se', but is still very cool <G>). The foreign (non-US) agencies will not be 
>covered in as much detail as the US agencies, but there will still be a good 
>amount of info. 
 
<waves placard> "EQUAL SPACE FOR EVERY NATION!!" :-) 
 
Seriously, though, there are some major differences between various 
countries. Another good point to deal with is the varying attitudes towards 
police in various nations. Will you also address the criminal justice system 
for the various nations? What you can expect if you commit a crime, 
conditions in prison, what punishment for what crime, special punishments 
found in various nations (flogging in Singapore, etc.), etc. 
  
><< Perhaps because the HERO system (not just Champions) encourages you to 
>build a Medical Doctor on 6 points (Paramedic, KS: Medicine 11-, License). My 
>brother's a MD; a 'realistically portrayed' MD would cost as much or more than 
>a 'realistically portrayed' Police Officer. >> 
> 
>  I would like to see the write-up. 
 
Well, my brother did St.John's training before university, that's Paramedic 
to start. Bachelor's Degree in Biochemistry before hitting medschool. That's 
SC: Biochemistry and probably SC: Biology and SC: Math and SC: Physics and 
SC: Chemistry (the first at INT, the rest at 11-). Medschool itself would 
give you SC: Anatomy, SC: Pathology, KS: Medicine (all WELL above 11-). Then 
internship would get you PS: Medical Doctor, SC: Surgery (probably at 11- 
unless you specialize in surgery) as well as bumping up Paramedic to around 
14-. Not to mention that my brother did triathalons well into medschool, so 
you can give him an above average STR, DEX, CON, BODY, PD, ED, REC and END, 
plus bumped up Running and Swimming. Of course, don't forget the higher than 
average INT and EGO (you try dissecting a human corpse!) it takes to be a 
doctor, plus Conversation to deal with patients. And this is for a _general_ 
practitioner - family medicine! Okay, without the Triathalon stuff: 
 
3  Scientist (keeps costs down) 
3  +3 INT (at least) 
6  +3 EGO (at least) 
2  SC: Pre-Med Subject 12- 
1  SC: Peripheral Pre-Med Subject* 11- 
1  SC: Peripheral Pre-Med Subject* 11- 
2  SC: Biology 12- 
4  SC: Anatomy** 14- 
4  SC: Pathology** 14- 
4  KS: Medicine** 14- 
7  Paramedic** 14- 
1  SC: Surgery 11- 
3  PS: Medical Doctor 12- 
3  Conversation 
1  Perk: License to Practice Medicine 
5  Perk: Wealth*** 
-- 
50 points. And that's for a General Practitioner. Specialists would go 
higher. as time went on, I'd expect the PS: MD to go higher, with small 
increases in KS: Medicine, SC: Surgery and Paramedic.  
 
* Generally Math, Physics, Chemistry, Materials Science, etc. 
** Bare minimum to qualify for a Medical Doctorate, IMHO. 
*** Optional, but most make a lot of money unless they're doing foreign aid 
work. Part of the cost probably also covers the prestige a doctor gets in 
society. 
 
><< Way back when _I_ originally got outraged at the concept of a 200 point 
>cop; _I_ was talking about overpriced agents (from Genocide). A flip remark 
>(which you corrected and explained later to my total satisfaction) on your 
>part made it seem like you were proposing 200 point agent-level cops in 
>superhero games. >> 
> 
>  They can certainly be used in superhero campaigns. There is nothing 
>unbalancing about them at all. In fact, they perform the same in combat as 50 
>Pt cops. :/ 
 
Well, yes, but they aren't _agents_, they're special NPCs. The average cop 
is not a walking criminology lab. That's why they call the lab boys to go 
over a crime scene, or homicide detectives to investigate a murder - the 
_average_ cop is not _properly_ equipped or trained to deal with such 
situations. A 200 point cop would be. 
 
><< Remember, this is the system of 6 point doctors! >> 
> 
>  This is a system that allows 6 point doctors *and* 200 point cops. Hero 
>System is flexible and allows you to customize it quite a bit. Do not rule out 
>the full blown "PCs are Cops in an Action Film" campaign, which would 
>certainly benefit from the detailed write-ups I suggest. 
 
I'm not. But I do advocate, unless you _have_ to detail everything, that 
NPCs be built on a 'rock-bottom' basis - it minimises the work a GM has to 
do when running the character. I really hope you have a short bit on "If you 
want cheap, low detail cops, here's the absolute minimum they should be 
built with". 
  
><< I'm sure you Yankees are wondering about our RCMP (and Ontario and Quebec 
>provincial police). >> 
> 
>  Careful. ;) "Yankees" is a term generally reserved for those of "Northern" 
>descent. Them's is fightin' words to a proper red-blodded South'ner! <LOL> 
 
Okay. Yankees and Rednecks it is :-). 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo sac-d.mp.campus.mci.net from nexus@uky.campus.mci.net server @sac-d.mp.campus.mci.net ip 204.71.76.243 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:31:59 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net 
To: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 06:14 PM 4/13/98 EDT, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< No, they are doing their jobs, same as teachers, librarians, constructon 
>workers, hacks, and Unix sysmonsters. >> 
> 
>  Well, so are superheroes. Thus, superhero PCs deserve no experience points 
>for their adventrues... ever. Hey, I like that! Prevents the need to revamp 
>the villains from time to time. ;) 
 
As I've seen Superhero PCs have alot of "downtime" such as standard patrols, 
day to day activites that they don't get experience for or its lumped into 
"roleplaying" bonuses. I'd dare say the same things applies to police 
officers, firefighters and others with dangerous professions. Gamewise, they 
wouldn't rack up XP everytime they went to work, perhaps not even every time 
something "exciting" happened.  
 
I know violence doesn't solve all problems... 
	But it sure feels good! 
		Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo jcs1.jcstate.edu from ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu server @jcs1.jcstate.edu ip 204.117.72.52 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 18:44:14 -0500 (EST) 
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Strawberry Ripple 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Cc: Ravanos <Ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
	Here's my take on the groovy babe Strawberry Ripple. 
	 
	She's a far out, man...  She was once a square geek-child, but 
after an accident with some chemical substances, she gained the ability to 
change into S.R.  Now she fights 'the man' sand speaks out for the rights 
of hip and happening young people everywhere.  An activist, the fuzz don't 
appreciate her much... but she tunes them in with her 'strawberry love 
wave', (AoE Radius Mental Illusions, based on CON, illusions based on 
target's subconcious perceptions of the world). 
 
	Other powers I would suggest are Aura Perception, Change 
Environment (just for funked out lighting and lava lamp effects), Mind 
Control (as above, to instill feelings of serenity, peace, and love for 
your fellow man), and even gliding or flight (with bad blue screen special 
effects in the background). 
 
-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+- 
"Fools are my theme, let satire be my song."  
	-Lord Byron; English Bards and Scotch Reviewers.  Line 6.  
-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_- 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo15.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo15.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.37 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:57:13 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Law& Order (was Re: Joe Cop...) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< Seriously, though, there are some major differences between various 
countries.>> 
 
  Why, yes, there are. 
 
<< Will you also address the criminal justice system for the various nations? 
>> 
 
  To a limited extent, yes. basically we may make some comparisons of the 
basic stuff, but we can't go into too much detail about each country's justice 
system, not even our own (we're limiting it to the part that law enforcement 
officers play in the justice system). 
 
  The book is primarily focused on law enforcement officers in the US, 
obviously. However, if there wqere sufficient demand, I guess we could look at 
doing an "International Law and Order" book if we had some authros for it. ;) 
  
<< 50 points. And that's for a General Practitioner. >> 
 
  I think someone sees exactly what it is I've been talking about. ;) 
 
<< Well, yes, but they aren't _agents_, they're special NPCs. >> 
 
  Semantics. You're comparing a label attached to a point total (re: "Agent") 
to my suggestion for a fully fleshed out simulation of a real-world type 
character. If you want to consider it a "Major NPC," then by all means do so. 
It makes no difference. There is absolutely nbothing that says a cop cannot be 
a "major" character as far as points go. By the same token, I never said you 
couldn't make due with 25 Point cops in a campaign if that's all it needs. 
 
<< The average cop is not a walking criminology lab. That's why they call the 
lab boys to go over a crime scene, or homicide detectives to investigate a 
murder - the 
_average_ cop is not _properly_ equipped or trained to deal with such 
situations. A 200 point cop would be. >> 
 
  I find it interesting that you are telling an average law enforcement 
officer what an average law enforcement officer is capable of doing in the 
real world. I never claimed cops were "walking crime labs." I think you need 
to re-read my specific comments about the Forensic Medicine skill in an 
earlier post. 
 
<< I'm not. But I do advocate, unless you _have_ to detail everything, that 
NPCs be built on a 'rock-bottom' basis - it minimises the work a GM has to do 
when running the character. >> 
 
  Some GMs *like* to have detailed write-ups. Some GMs aren't bothered by a 
little more work when running characters. Nobody is twisting your arms and 
saying that you must accept this write-up as the *only* valid write-up for a 
cop in all games. Good golly, you can do whatever you want. We're not 
mandating anything. 
 
<<I really hope you have a short bit on "If you want cheap, low detail cops, 
here's the absolute minimum they should be built with". >> 
 
  I get the sneaking feeling that some people are just not reading my posts. 
 
  Yes, we are planning to include a section on developing low-cost cops. 
However, it will not be a large portion of the book. That would be like simply 
listing one single generic "Martial Arts" style in The Ultimate Martial 
Artist. <LOL> 
 
  The book is called "Law and Order," folks. We are delving into the genre and 
the topic in order to provide a lot of good, deailed info about law enfocement 
in general, for use in any modern genre game. You don't have to use the 
material at all if you don't want. But all of the criticism is just mind 
boggling to me given that nop one has read the book yet (obviously), nor even 
seen the outline. 
 
  For months I have received nothing but positive comments from Hero fans 
telling me they are eagerly awaiting the book, can't wait to see what kind of 
Hero System stats we list for things (including police vehicles, weapons, 
armor, characters, etc.), the campaign info and tips, character archetypes, 
and so on. 
 
  Then I post one teeny tiny portion of the info that will be in the book 
and.. BANG! You'd think we were responsible for WWIII! <LOL> Give it a chance, 
folks. There's a lot more to it than a single 200 point write-up of a cop. 
  
  mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo30.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo30.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.74 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:08:55 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< As I've seen Superhero PCs have alot of "downtime" such as standard 
patrols>> 
 
  Okay, I am going to clarify the following comment right now -- I am talking 
about big city patrol cops. The comment itself is: 
 
  How much downtime do you think there is on patrol in a city? If you think 
that the average swing shift patrol has hours of dead time, you are woefully 
mistaken. On any given weeknight swing shift patrol, I responded to no less 
than 20 calls in an 8 hour period. Before you start using averagetimes (let's 
see, that's 24 minutes per call) keep in mind travel time. 
 
  Driving to a call can take up most of the time spent "assigned" to a call. 
The average response time when I worked was about 10-15 minutes. That's a busy 
night! Granted, I worked the county and not the city (city cops tend to have 
more cops per capita and smaller patrol districts resulting in a lower 
response time to calls and a lower response time for backup). 
 
  It's hard to put into words the chaos that goes on on patrol. But we're 
going to do our best in Law and Order. ;) 
 
<< I'd dare say the same things applies to police officers, firefighters and 
others with dangerous professions. Gamewise, they wouldn't rack up XP 
everytime they went to work, perhaps not even every time something "exciting" 
happened. >> 
 
  An average night may have something like: two or more silent burglary alarms 
(usually false), one or two silent robbery alarms (usually employee error or a 
disturbance only, but not always), several domestic violence calls, a missing 
child (11 yrs or younger), a suicidal subject, a major traffic accident, two 
or more traffic stops, a shoplifting or beer run, drive-by shooting, loud 
music complaint, a felony warrant arrest or two, a high speed chase...  PER 
PATROL UNIT. 
 
  This is no joke. We're talking an average night in a city. 
 
  Fights, shootings, investigations, consoling, counseling work, arrests and 
booking, car and foot chases are all pretty "exciting," usually. While in game 
terms probably not worth 1 EP each, they could certainly add up quickly.  ;) 
 
  My veteran cop NPCs are not typically slouches by any stretch. But again, in 
a superhero campaign, even my 200-250 Point cops are no match for one 200 
point hero PC (or supervillain NPC). That's what the heroes are for. ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:14:35 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Reply-To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: More book reviews, please 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
> really planning to print that anyway.)  Of course, I'm also running 
> Windows 3.11, which might be part of the difference -- I would go into 
> some of the comments I've heard about Windows 95, but I believe this is a 
> G-rated list :) . 
 
	Well, I, like many, was totally Anti-Win95 up until last summer. 
I was then forced to deal with it, Win 3.1, Win for Workgroups, and Novel 
on a regular basis as part of my Computer Tech job. 
 
	I must say that was enough to convince me to switch from 3.1 to 95 
when I upgraded my hardware.  It was much easier to do anything involving 
networking of any type, as well as being a little less eclectic.  Win 95 
is just not as bad as Win 3.1, which doesn't say much, but does say 
something.  I still get a lot of crashes, but got many more from 3.1.  I'm 
still looking forward to an eventual switch to a Sun OS. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:18:29 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> I won't strongly contest the presence of this Skill, but since you said 
> "over time, it gradually adds", doesn't that imply that the baseline cop 
> will *not* have CSLs, placing this into in the category of things that 
> should be added on later? 
 
	But the baseline cop is _not_ a rookie.  That would be a special 
toned-down package, IMO.  Most cops aren't rookies. 
 
> Acquired during his time on the beat, yes.  Not on his first day out of the 
> academy. 
 
	Again, the base cop will have at least a few years of experience. 
 
> Personally, in many cases I'd be happy to play using the PS: Cop and not 
> much else, but only if the GM agreed that the PS covers 95% of what you've 
> listed above.  I think most GMs would balk at the PS coverage being that 
> extensive, in which case I'd have to go with something much like what 
> you've described above. 
 
	Right.  That was a damn incredible list, making me absolutely 
convinced that I must pick up the book when it is released.  Many other 
jobs could recive this sort of fleshing out, especially military. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo17.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo17.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.39 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:20:39 EDT 
To: trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< That was a damn incredible list, making me absolutely convinced that I must 
pick up the book when it is released. >> 
 
  Thanks, Tim. ;) 
 
<< Many other jobs could recive this sort of fleshing out, especially 
military. >> 
 
  Well, now that you mention it, we are covering Military Police in the book 
as well... ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:22:48 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: COM rules [Really Long!] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
>    Actually, I don't think *any* psychologically-based attack would have 
> much effect on dead people. 
 
	But, perhaps, a dead person could make a Com-based attack.  We 
probably don't want to think about it. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:25:34 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> << I'd argue the police sergeant who showed up had the full skill, not just 
> familiarity, but by the time someone is ready for the sergeant's exam they've 
> racked up some XPs.>> 
> 
>   Being eligible for the Sgt.'s exam is based almost entirely on years of 
> service in our department. Just FYI. 
 
	That is XP, isn't it?  Just plain experience in the field? 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:44:04 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Knights 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
> ><< And knowledge of Chivalry would definitely be part of PS: Knight. >> 
> > 
> >  Is that so? 
> 
> Of course! That's part of what differentiates it from PS: Mercinary Soldier. 
> Chivalry was (supposed to be) part of the professional etiquette of the 
> knight, neh? 
 
	You seem really willing to give an awful lot just with the PS.  By 
this estimation, PS: Doctor will be enough to do any and all medical 
procedures and PS: Translator will allow you to speak whatever languages 
you are translating. 
 
> Exactly. If a knight wants to 'impress' the ladies with how well he dances, 
> it's time for him to buy PS: Dancing (KS: Dancing would be theoretical and 
> historical knowledge...IOW, Dance Masters only). 
 
	This is a huge part of the chivalric practice, especially with 
fictional knights.  Courtly abilities and reputations were as large as 
battlefield abilities and reputations.  If the latter requires separate 
skill purchases, the former should as well.  Adding musical skills would 
be a big plus.  You might also think about conversation and seduction. 
 
> I can't help but wonder if the 'Everyman' skills in a campaign shouldn't 
> depend on the background of the individual - namely, the social class they 
> come from, as bought as a Perk/Disad. Nobles (Perk:Nobility) and Peasants 
> (Phys.Lim.:Serf) should in theory have broadly different 'Everyman' skills, 
> should they not? 
 
	Nope.  At that point, they aren't held by "everyman".  As the 
medieval English play, this applies to absolutely everyone, in theory. 
You'll have some that won't even take the baseline level, but that's 
because we allow for what the majority will have.  In this case, there's 
not a whole lot that is going to go into the Medieval everyman.  A 
language, possibly an AK, possibly a KS on local personages. 
 
> But those that _do_ know are either club dwellers (who do little else but 
> work at day and club at night) or trained dancers. And I wasn't talking 
> about improvising per se, but simply getting by with a few basic dance steps. 
 
	That won't help your rep at all in a highly sophisticated court. 
 
> The problem is that when you get to 'picky' about who has what skills, 
> almost _any_ human being needs 100+ points to be properly represented. Even 
> the stuff from your student work days would provide a half dozen PS's, if 
> only at the FAM level. 
 
	Not really.  Most have been forgotten already.  However, the base 
person for the Everyman has definately _not_ gone to college.  We're 
talking a High School education with a simple profession.  Someone who has 
gone through a 4-year degree should be at least a 25 point character. 
 
> After all, you can recognize the flags of your state, city and township, 
> right? Same thing; area knowledge. Knights applying for a 'new' coat of arms 
 
	Um, no.  I can get the Federal, that's about it.  I may have 
learned the others, but I've moved and stuff.  At the same time, I 
definately have an 8- AK with Jacksonville, IL, an 8- AK with the Joliet 
IL area, and a 14- or 15- AK with the Channahon and Minooka, IL area.  I 
probably also have an 8- with Chicago proper and an 8- with IL in general. 
Heck, as I can name and place all the states, most of the capitols, and 
many of the major cities, I probably have an 8- or 11- AK, The US and, as 
I was a geography wiz in my earlier days who could place basically any 
country, most with capitol, I probably have an AK 8-, The World.  That 
said, the flags would get me on a lot of those.  I don't have a KS in 
flags. 
 
> consulted with Heralds to insure that they did not conflict with other 
> crests (a serious no-no); there's no way the 'average' knight would have the 
> knowledge to perform this kind of research - and that's primarily what KS: 
> Heraldry is, IMHO. 
 
	Right.  But I'd argue that should be PS: Herald and/or a SS: 
Heraldy.  The KS would actually be KS: Crests and Coats of Arms. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail.airmail.net from ghoyle1@airmail.net server @mail.airmail.net ip 206.66.12.40 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:03:07 -0500 
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Hero Plus: "Cardboard Heroes"? 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id VAA21349 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Is there a chance that Hero Games might be able to realease some "cardboard hero" type counters in electronic format?  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo sac-a.mp.campus.mci.net from nexus@uky.campus.mci.net server @sac-a.mp.campus.mci.net ip 204.71.76.240 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 19:12:43 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net 
To: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 09:08 PM 4/13/98 EDT, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< As I've seen Superhero PCs have alot of "downtime" such as standard 
>patrols>> 
> 
>  Okay, I am going to clarify the following comment right now -- I am talking 
>about big city patrol cops. The comment itself is: 
> 
>  How much downtime do you think there is on patrol in a city? If you think 
>that the average swing shift patrol has hours of dead time, you are woefully 
>mistaken. On any given weeknight swing shift patrol, I responded to no less 
>than 20 calls in an 8 hour period. Before you start using averagetimes (let's 
>see, that's 24 minutes per call) keep in mind travel time. 
> 
>  Driving to a call can take up most of the time spent "assigned" to a call. 
>The average response time when I worked was about 10-15 minutes. That's a busy 
>night! Granted, I worked the county and not the city (city cops tend to have 
>more cops per capita and smaller patrol districts resulting in a lower 
>response time to calls and a lower response time for backup). 
> 
>  It's hard to put into words the chaos that goes on on patrol. But we're 
>going to do our best in Law and Order. ;) 
> 
><< I'd dare say the same things applies to police officers, firefighters and 
>others with dangerous professions. Gamewise, they wouldn't rack up XP 
>everytime they went to work, perhaps not even every time something "exciting" 
>happened. >> 
> 
>  An average night may have something like: two or more silent burglary alarms 
>(usually false), one or two silent robbery alarms (usually employee error or a 
>disturbance only, but not always), several domestic violence calls, a missing 
>child (11 yrs or younger), a suicidal subject, a major traffic accident, two 
>or more traffic stops, a shoplifting or beer run, drive-by shooting, loud 
>music complaint, a felony warrant arrest or two, a high speed chase...  PER 
>PATROL UNIT. 
> 
>  This is no joke. We're talking an average night in a city. 
> 
>  Fights, shootings, investigations, consoling, counseling work, arrests and 
>booking, car and foot chases are all pretty "exciting," usually. While in game 
>terms probably not worth 1 EP each, they could certainly add up quickly.  ;) 
 
Exciting yes, but still "routine", definatly not worth a point of experience 
for every night showing up for work. If so, Super PCs should get one for 
every mugger they stop, every cat the flying guy gets out of tree on their 
patrols 
 
The biggest objetion I have to the 200+ pt cop (or any "realistic NPC) is 
that it does make PCs look incompotent. A hero who's a cop in his secret id 
is likely going to come out quite a bit "underskilled" along these lines.  
 
This is really going to stick out in low level "Dark Champions" games where 
investigation is spotlighted unless the PCs all resemble the Harbinger of 
Justice point totalwise....  
 
 
>  My veteran cop NPCs are not typically slouches by any stretch. But again, in 
>a superhero campaign, even my 200-250 Point cops are no match for one 200 
>point hero PC (or supervillain NPC). That's what the heroes are for. ;) 
 
Perhaps on a combat basis but skillwise is another issue. 
 
 
I know violence doesn't solve all problems... 
	But it sure feels good! 
		Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail.interhop.net from jprins@interhop.net server root@mail.interhop.net ip 204.50.138.29 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:21:12 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Law& Order (was Re: Joe Cop...) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
><< Will you also address the criminal justice system for the various nations? 
 
>  To a limited extent, yes. basically we may make some comparisons of the 
>basic stuff, but we can't go into too much detail about each country's justice 
>system, not even our own (we're limiting it to the part that law enforcement 
>officers play in the justice system). 
 
Well, knowing what is a crime in which country would be nice. Especially the 
colorful ones, like "No chewing gum in Singapore." 
 
>  The book is primarily focused on law enforcement officers in the US, 
>obviously. However, if there wqere sufficient demand, I guess we could look at 
>doing an "International Law and Order" book if we had some authros for it. ;) 
 
Well, with good reason, but having reasonably detailed knowledge of the 
legal systems and police forces of, say, the G7 countries, would be oh-so 
invaluable for internationaly style games! And this sort of material is 
cross-game stuff; worthwhile regardless of the system used. Some of the 
stuff in Dark Champions is a good example; namely the Organized Crime (a bit 
more about crime outside the US would have been good - who runs crime in 
India? South Africa?) and Forensics sections are useful regardless of the 
game system. 
  
><< 50 points. And that's for a General Practitioner. >> 
> 
>  I think someone sees exactly what it is I've been talking about. ;) 
 
To a degree. But HERO is perfectly comfortable 'blowing off' those detailed 
writeups for 'stock' characters. Even in a Police-centered campaign, I'd 
expect the standard police officer to be written up pretty much the same as 
in a Superhero campaign. 
 
>a "major" character as far as points go. By the same token, I never said you 
>couldn't make due with 25 Point cops in a campaign if that's all it needs. 
 
True, but I get a sneaking suspicion you might be a tad offended if it 
happened in your campaign ^_^. That's okay, I see that all the time; write 
up a NPC who has the same job as one of your players, and he'll say: "But he 
needs this, and this, and this, and this..." 
 
><<I really hope you have a short bit on "If you want cheap, low detail cops, 
>here's the absolute minimum they should be built with". >> 
 
>  Yes, we are planning to include a section on developing low-cost cops. 
>However, it will not be a large portion of the book. That would be like simply 
>listing one single generic "Martial Arts" style in The Ultimate Martial 
>Artist. <LOL> 
 
Don't laugh, Watchers of the Dragon couldn't build 'popcorn' ninja to fight 
heroic characters on less than 150 points, and made ninja for fighting 
superheroes start at 250 points*. THIS is the sort of error I don't want to 
see in Law and Order. I just want to stress the importance of starting the 
scale as low as possible/believable - from there, go as high as you please! 
Watchers of the Dragon _didn't_ make allowances for most styles of game play 
- they had the uber-ninjas galore, but lacked the lower end. Ninja Hero is 
better in this respect, giving 100 and 120 point heroic ninja, which is 
probably the reasonable bottom end on ninja-hood.  
 
*and this was a fairly combat-effective 250 to boot. DEX 18 SPD 4 with 7 
martial arts maneuvers. This was the 'worst' ninja they had to offer?  
 
>  Then I post one teeny tiny portion of the info that will be in the book 
>and.. BANG! You'd think we were responsible for WWIII! <LOL> Give it a chance, 
>folks. There's a lot more to it than a single 200 point write-up of a cop. 
 
I expect that; you made that clear very rapidly. I just wanted to point out 
that 'abstracted' is not the same as 'unrealistic', and abstracted costs a 
whole lot less (what if I want to have Police Officers as followers, or 
Summon them? I want them cheap and cost effective as possible, right? :-). 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:06:17 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> > 	And considering they're out having what a game would call 
> > "adventure sessions" about every day or so, they'll build up a lot of XP 
> > really quickly. 
> 
> No, they are doing their jobs, same as teachers, librarians, constructon 
> workers, hacks, and Unix sysmonsters. 
 
	Ah.  In which case, Superheroes, merely doing their "jobs" as 
superheroes, would get absolutely no XP, thus removing any need for XP. 
Super Agents in a Superagent campaign would also only be doing their 
"job", and would get nothing for it. 
 
	I'm sorry, Rat, you've said some pretty stupid things, but this 
about takes the cake. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:21:09 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> << That was a damn incredible list, making me absolutely convinced that I must 
> pick up the book when it is released. >> 
> 
>   Thanks, Tim. ;) 
 
	No problem.  This is the sort of thing that can easily sell 
outside of actual Hero gamers.  I could see White Wolfers picking this up 
to flesh out a Vampire campaign. 
 
> << Many other jobs could recive this sort of fleshing out, especially 
> military. >> 
> 
>   Well, now that you mention it, we are covering Military Police in the book 
> as well... ;) 
 
	That's great, but I think a Military Hero book would go over well. 
cover the various branches with specialization packages.  Cover training 
and procedure, etc. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp1.globalserve.net from hartjes@ionsys.com server @smtp1.globalserve.net ip 209.90.144.2 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:22:56 -0400 
From: Chris Hartjes <hartjes@ionsys.com> 
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
>  
>         I'm sorry, Rat, you've said some pretty stupid things, but this 
> about takes the cake. 
>  
>                                 -Tim Gilberg 
 
I was just wondering how many messages it would take until this topic 
would degenerate into personal insults and attacks.   
 
It is very easy to build a cop at almost any point total.  It all 
depends on what you think the cop deserves in the way of skills and what 
is covered by PS: Law Enforcement Agent. 
 
Sheesh.  I thought the Reply-To thing was bad... 
 
Chris Hartjes 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 13 Apr 1998 23:30:15 -0400 
Lines: 28 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Tim R Gilberg writes: 
 
> 	Ah.  In which case, Superheroes, merely doing their "jobs" as 
> superheroes, would get absolutely no XP, thus removing any need for XP. 
> Super Agents in a Superagent campaign would also only be doing their 
> "job", and would get nothing for it. 
 
Sorry, Tim, but street cops are *NOT* the heroes of the story.  They do 
*NOT* get experience in the same fashion that PCs and major villains will. 
They do *NOT* need a huge (relatively) expenditure of points in various 
legal skills that will never be used. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNTLYRJ6VRH7BJMxHAQHH/QP+PTjzofzCIGT00nbJTDRHcB9WDoKl8UjP 
282J1X989StkRnC4OYuq3ygWIb2xN/qzk7a4AN0FdDotcSVkc92017EQHsNR/N/+ 
IW2a8vnsZ/aCF+EpBWzh60qV3NbdYUyO7kkmcG1VBpKKtAhrG8/qoSbE3R3aI2++ 
ZJ/Oq+Ai2IA= 
=Migt 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo wnsc_mail.centraltx.net from ronald@centraltx.net server root@mail.centraltx.net ip 208.135.247.48 
From: "Ron Abitz" <ronald@centraltx.net> 
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Law& Order (was Re: Joe Cop...) 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:42:17 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<SNIPPED> 
>   
> ><< I'm sure you Yankees are wondering about our RCMP (and Ontario and 
Quebec 
> >provincial police). >> 
> > 
> >  Careful. ;) "Yankees" is a term generally reserved for those of 
"Northern" 
> >descent. Them's is fightin' words to a proper red-blodded South'ner! 
<LOL> 
>  
> Okay. Yankees and Rednecks it is :-). 
Hey you missed the people from the midwest and the northwest. Oh and the 
people from Califiona<G> 
 
            Ron Abitz 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mars.superlink.net from why@superlink.net server root@mars.superlink.net ip 204.97.220.9 
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:01:33 -0400 
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Skills and setting their levels (was Re: Knights) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 08:44 PM 4/13/98 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>> ><< And knowledge of Chivalry would definitely be part of PS: Knight. >> 
>> > 
>> >  Is that so? 
>> 
>> Of course! That's part of what differentiates it from PS: Mercinary 
Soldier. 
>> Chivalry was (supposed to be) part of the professional etiquette of the 
>> knight, neh? 
> 
>	You seem really willing to give an awful lot just with the PS.  By 
>this estimation, PS: Doctor will be enough to do any and all medical 
>procedures and PS: Translator will allow you to speak whatever languages 
>you are translating. 
 
No.  That's silly.  PS: Knight is the minimum skill a knight needs to get 
through a typical day without getting hanged by his liege lord.  Chivalry 
basics would be included.  Grooming a horse would be in it.  Court 
etiquette as practiced by a knight would be in it.  Without any other skill 
he would always properly address his superiors, properly dress down his 
pages, and properly handle his equipment.  WF: Sword and Riding are about 
all else he NEEDS.  (And as I'll contend below, he only needs an 11- in PS: 
Knight.) 
 
I go into the doctor pretty well, below: 
 
>> I can't help but wonder if the 'Everyman' skills in a campaign shouldn't 
>> depend on the background of the individual - namely, the social class they 
>> come from, as bought as a Perk/Disad. Nobles (Perk:Nobility) and Peasants 
>> (Phys.Lim.:Serf) should in theory have broadly different 'Everyman' skills, 
>> should they not? 
> 
>	Nope.  At that point, they aren't held by "everyman".  As the 
>medieval English play, this applies to absolutely everyone, in theory. 
 
No, it doesn't.  Just most everyone.  Learning disabled people don't have 
them.  PC aliens from another culture constantly take "no familiarity with 
earth customs".  Stroke victims lack most of these everyman skills.  A 
friend of mine does not have a driver's license because he doesn't feel he 
possesses the typical late 20th century, everyman skill: PS: Driving 
(according to your definition of the necessary skills.)  I would place 
Everyman skills for modern gaming at 25 years old, high school diploma with 
an adequate paying trade.  It would include everything you theoretically 
learn in school, typical knowledge of local laws and customs, and a PS: 
trade 11-.  (I know the book suggests 8- but I figure at 25, the everyman 
deserves an XP.) 
 
>You'll have some that won't even take the baseline level, but that's 
>because we allow for what the majority will have.  In this case, there's 
>not a whole lot that is going to go into the Medieval everyman.  A 
>language, possibly an AK, possibly a KS on local personages. 
 
Okay, let's see me: Computer programming 12- (I have a master's degree), 
PS: Computer programmer/analyst 11-, KS: Computing 11-, PS: musician 11-, 
KS: song composition: 11-, KS: rpgs (20+ years) 12-, KS: comic books 8-, 
KS: scifi/fantasy novels, movies, tv shows 11-, probably a few more I 
failed my KS: knowledge of self 12- roll due to lack of extra time.  Even 
if this adds up to over 25 points, what about my disadvantages: phys: obese 
(infreq, slight), psy: must prove others wrong (common, strong :-), phys: 
Insomnia, phys: lacks everyman spelling (-1), etc, etc.  Then, there are my 
characteristics: a little extra BODY, a little less END, good CON, ave STR, 
ave DEX, good INT, so-so EGO, better than I usually realize PRE, lowish COM. 
 
Whenever people write themselves up they do not remember that most of the 
skills they are really good at, are skills that they take extra time to 
perform.  My 12- in CompProg is sheet bragidoccio.  I believe I am better 
at it than most other programmers (who would have a 11-).  Programming 
takes time, by giving myself a 12-, I am saying I am 5 times faster than 
someone else.  That is more than likely false.  But a 13- would be 25 times 
better/faster than most trained programmers and that is just delusional. 
(Difference in skills is based on the time chart, each level is 5 times 
longer than the previous.  To get a 11- skill to 14- requires 3 levels on 
the time chart.  If you start at 12-, you can do the skill (at 14-, safely) 
5 times faster.) 
 
>> The problem is that when you get to 'picky' about who has what skills, 
>> almost _any_ human being needs 100+ points to be properly represented. Even 
>> the stuff from your student work days would provide a half dozen PS's, if 
>> only at the FAM level. 
 
PS: Dead-end jobs worked through college, 8-.  (1 point, stick it in the 
Paid His Own Way Through College package deal. :-) 
 
>	Not really.  Most have been forgotten already.  However, the base 
>person for the Everyman has definately _not_ gone to college.  We're 
>talking a High School education with a simple profession.  Someone who has 
>gone through a 4-year degree should be at least a 25 point character. 
 
That's silly.  Unless you have a Ph.D. (or many years of broad experience), 
you do not have more than 3 points in a specific KS or PS.  You may have 
more than 3 points in a broad KS.  A doctor (PS: General practician) does 
not have to make a PS roll to figure out a perscription for a cold.  He 
automatically determines what is best for his patient.  This is because 
most of the symptoms he encounters are routine and give +3 to +5 on his 
skill roll (BBB p18).  When in doubt, he can take extra time.  He might get 
+1 to +3 because he is in his office (good environment).  If he has KS: 
Medicine, he gets a complimentary roll.  Maybe he has KS: "patients in his 
practice" at 8-.  (How much does your doctor really know about you?)  Maybe 
<1% of the time he would need to roll a PS skill to diagnose one of his 
patients. 
 
He can perform first aid without a roll.  In fact, any doctor with a 14- in 
PS: general physician is near godlike when it comes to primary care: over 
125 times better than the average doctor, who should only have an 11-. 
 
>> After all, you can recognize the flags of your state, city and township, 
>> right? Same thing; area knowledge. Knights applying for a 'new' coat of 
arms 
> 
>	Um, no.  I can get the Federal, that's about it.  I may have 
>learned the others, but I've moved and stuff.  At the same time, I 
>definately have an 8- AK with Jacksonville, IL, an 8- AK with the Joliet 
>IL area, and a 14- or 15- AK with the Channahon and Minooka, IL area.  I 
>probably also have an 8- with Chicago proper and an 8- with IL in general. 
>Heck, as I can name and place all the states, most of the capitols, and 
>many of the major cities, I probably have an 8- or 11- AK, The US and, as 
>I was a geography wiz in my earlier days who could place basically any 
>country, most with capitol, I probably have an AK 8-, The World.  That 
>said, the flags would get me on a lot of those.  I don't have a KS in 
>flags. 
 
No, you probably don't have all of that.  You can name 95% percent of the 
streets in Channahom and Minooka?  (And where they are in relation to each 
other?)  If I asked you how many houses were on such-and-such street, would 
you know?  Is there a short cut through back yards to get from Channon St 
to North St? (I used yahoo maps, I really don't know what I'm talking about: 
 
http://maps.yahoo.com/yahoo/yt.hm?CMD=MAP&FAM=yahoo&SEC=geo&MA=1&GC=X:-88.21 
857|Y:41.43446|LT:41.43142|LN:-88.22377|LS:10000|c:Channahon|s:IL|d:602|p:US 
A&IC=41.43446:-88.21857:10:&GAD3=Channahon%2c+IL&H=375&W=600&LV=1  
 
) 
 
You have AK: East Illonios 11-, and AK: home town 12- and those two give 
you local knowledge of your area.  They tell you where the Sears (or 
Walmart) is, how to get to Chicago, the location of some excellent 
restaurants.  And, I would contend that those two skills are everyman 
skills: AK: local geopgraphic region 11-, AK: town lived in 12-.  Everyman 
skills also give you US and world general geography.  Not everyone has 
Everyman skills, some people buy them back as disadvantages. 
 
And, knowing capitals does not have anything to do with AK.  AK is knowing 
an area, what's there, who populates it, where the hospitals are, names of 
streets or highways.  Capitals do not cut it.  Capitals of states and 
cities is like KS: Geography 8-.  You want it higher than that then name 
some mountain peeks, a few rivers, a forest or two and a swamp in your 
area, multiply appropriately as the area grows. 
 
>> consulted with Heralds to insure that they did not conflict with other 
>> crests (a serious no-no); there's no way the 'average' knight would have 
the 
>> knowledge to perform this kind of research - and that's primarily what KS: 
>> Heraldry is, IMHO. 
> 
>	Right.  But I'd argue that should be PS: Herald and/or a SS: 
>Heraldy.  The KS would actually be KS: Crests and Coats of Arms. 
 
And the KS would be assumed by PS: Herald.  KS: Crests and Coats of Arms as 
an actual skill would allow a herald to determine the meaning of a 500 year 
old tapestry found and preserved in a lost area of the game world.  It 
would tell the herald why the king's brother's traditional coats of arms 
traditionally carries a crimson snake in the lower quadrant.  The PS: 
Herald skill would just allow the herald to recognize the coats of arms as 
the enemy army charged into battle. 
 
  Joe 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo25.mx.aol.com from pat10355@aol.com server @imo25.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.69 
From: Pat10355 <Pat10355@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:27:01 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 1 
 
I'm afraid that I just don't see why delineating a "complete cop" in Hero 
System is a sign of the coming apocalypse. 
 
Look, if you want to say everything necessary to practice a profession is 
covered by a 2-point skill, go ahead. No one's stopping you. 
 
But if someone else wants to know every skill a peace officer might reasonably 
have, because it's a campaign *about* cops, because they're anal retentive, 
whatever, then this is useful information. 
 
If it's not useful to you, then don't use it. 
 
PS The posts from non-peace officers lecturing real-life officers on what 
skills they possess are very funny. 
 
Patrick Sweeney 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo bnllc2.blue.net from mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net server @bnllc2.blue.net ip 206.65.217.254 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:28:44 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: mlnunn@blue.net 
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Subject: Law& Order 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 2 
 
What about the UCMJ and the Militay Police and it's various forms? 
 
The DEA, and all the Govt. agencies? 
 
How about "Future Law Organizations"? 
 
Any real surprises in store? 
 
Michael 
Rising Force Publications 
Herozine, The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist our recently updated web site... 
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
"You have never lived until you have almost died.  
And for those who fight for it, 
life has a flavor the protected never know"  
- anonymous 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo bnllc2.blue.net from mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net server @bnllc2.blue.net ip 206.65.217.254 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:28:46 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: mlnunn@blue.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Subject: Re: Hero Plus: "Cardboard Heroes"? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 3 
 
At 09:03 PM 4/13/98 -0500, Guy Hoyle wrote: 
>Is there a chance that Hero Games might be able to realease some "cardboard 
hero" type counters in electronic format?  
 
I can't speak for Hero but if there was enough call for them I think you 
could count on somebody offering upa disk... 
 
Michael 
Rising Force Publications 
Herozine, The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist our recently updated web site... 
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
"You have never lived until you have almost died.  
And for those who fight for it, 
life has a flavor the protected never know"  
- anonymous 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:41:42 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 4 
 
 
> It is very easy to build a cop at almost any point total.  It all 
> depends on what you think the cop deserves in the way of skills and what 
> is covered by PS: Law Enforcement Agent. 
 
	And if I was still responding to the cops andpoint totals part of 
the discussion, you would be right. 
 
	However, I was responding to Rat's assertion that a cop, or 
anyone, when performing their job earns no XP.  While I could see an 
argument that this may be so for non-adventurous professions, the work of 
a cop (fighting crime) is similar to that of a Hero (fighting Super 
Crime).  If the cop gets no XP for doing his job, then a Hero would get no 
XP either. 
 
	Simple extrapolation of Rat's comment exposes it's incredible lack 
of thought. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:48:24 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 5 
 
 
> > superheroes, would get absolutely no XP, thus removing any need for XP. 
> > Super Agents in a Superagent campaign would also only be doing their 
> > "job", and would get nothing for it. 
> 
> Sorry, Tim, but street cops are *NOT* the heroes of the story.  They do 
> *NOT* get experience in the same fashion that PCs and major villains will. 
> They do *NOT* need a huge (relatively) expenditure of points in various 
> legal skills that will never be used. 
 
	And the major villians aren't either the Heroes of the story.  Nor 
are minor villians or minor NPC heroes.  (Or followers, or DNPCs, or . . . 
you get the point).  However, it is not foolish to assume that any and all 
would improve with time, based on the earning of XP.  It doesn't take 
someone sitting at a table playing them for them to earn XP. 
 
	So, therefore, an NPC hero team from the next city over would 
develop just as the PC heroes do.  As would their arch-nemisis villian 
team. 
 
	PC Cops in a Police Hero game would obviously earn XP, I don't 
expect you to debate that.  However, their NPC rivals should improve and 
mature just as they do.  For that matter, everyone on the force will 
improve with time. 
 
	XP is the provided method for gradual improvement based on 
experience in "the field", whatever that may be.  Therefore, it is prudent 
to assume that XP is gainable by any and all in a world. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo bnllc2.blue.net from mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net server @bnllc2.blue.net ip 206.65.217.254 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:50:47 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: mlnunn@blue.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Subject: Joe Solider on 100 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 8 
 
This for the most part is me.  I used my military backgound as a base and 
did this write-up. There are several KS I might have been able to give 
myself but I tried to stay at or near 100 pts. 
 
Michael 
 
 
 
Standard US Army Infantry Solider 
 
13	STR	3 
14	DEX	12 
13	CON	6 
10	BODY	0 
13	INT	3 
11	EGO	2 
13	PRE	3 
10	COM	0 
5	PD	2 
4	ED	1 
3	SPD	6 
6	REC	0 
26	END	0 
24	STUN	0 
Characteristics Cost: 38 
 
2	PS: Job Before Joining Military	 
3	PS: Military Speciality	 
2	KS: Hobby 11-	 
1	Paramedic 8-	 
3	Tactics 12-	 
1	Computers 8-	 
1	Orienteering 8-	 
1	Weapon Permit	 
1	PERK: Top Secret Security Clearance	 
2	+1" Running	0 
5	1 Levels: Small Arms,related group	 
44	PKG,"Soldier"	 
(7)	WF,Grenade Launchers,Heavy Machine Guns,Rocket Launchers,	 
	Man-Guided Missiles,Small Arms,Knives	 
(2)	KS: Military 11-	 
(2)	KS: Military History and Customs 11-	 
(12)	Commando Training	 
(3)	Climbing 12-	 
(3)	Stealth 12-	 
(3)	Survival 11-	 
(1)	TF,Parachuting	 
(3)	Navigation 11-	 
(3)	1 Levels: w/3 related weapons (M16A2, M249 Saw, M9 9mm	 
	Barett,tight group	 
(2)	PS: Forward Observer 11-	 
(3)	Rappeling  11>	 
 
Powers Cost: 66 
Total Cost: 104 
 
Base Points: 50 
5	Subject to recall 
5	Distinctive,"Military",easily concealable,minor 
10	Watched,"The US Army",more powerful,non-combat influence, 
	 harsh,appear 8- 
15	DNPC,"spouse",normal,appear 11- 
10	Psych Lim,"Military Mind Set",common,moderate 
5	Unluck,1D6 
 
Disadvantages Total: 50 
Experience Spent: 4 
Total Points: 104 
Rising Force Publications 
Herozine, The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist our recently updated web site... 
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
"You have never lived until you have almost died.  
And for those who fight for it, 
life has a flavor the protected never know"  
- anonymous 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:00:43 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Reply-To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Skills and setting their levels (was Re: Knights) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 9 
 
 
	I'll get to the rest of your post later, for now I'll use the AK. 
 
> No, you probably don't have all of that.  You can name 95% percent of the 
> streets in Channahom and Minooka?  (And where they are in relation to each 
> other?)  If I asked you how many houses were on such-and-such street, would 
> you know?  Is there a short cut through back yards to get from Channon St 
> to North St? (I used yahoo maps, I really don't know what I'm talking about: 
 
	Um, yes, I would know 95%.  I delivered pizza there for 3 years 
and that will definately give quite a KS roll.  Channon to North?  You 
can cut through the yards, most aren't fenced.  Past Willard (which is two 
separate streets, the one the map shows on the other side of Tryon and the 
one that is a straight line to the NW from it connecting Channon and 
North.)  It'd also be pretty easy to cut through the Library, the 
ex-vacent lot that is now a clinic, or the shopping plaza.  But those are 
the easy parts of Channahon.  The tough ones are out in the boonies that 
actually aren't part of a city. 
 
	If I know that much about the towns, though, I'd estimate that the 
local police know at least as much.  That's a 14- or 15- AK, easy. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mercury.sun.com from samuel.bell@eng.sun.com server @mercury.Sun.COM ip 192.9.25.1 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:10:15 -0700 
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org, mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net 
Subject: Re: Joe Solider on 100 points?!?!? 
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 10 
 
 
 
A few nits: 
 
 
-> 1	Orienteering 8-	 
-> (3)	Climbing 12-	 
-> (1)	TF,Parachuting	 
-> (3)	Navigation 11-	 
-> (3)	Rappeling  11>	 
 
1) It costs 1pt to be able to parachute, but 3pts to climb and ANOTHER 3pts 
to slide down a rope? I'd let people with the climbing skill rappel for free. 
 
2) After spending 3pts to be able to Navigate, you still need to spend another 
point on Orienteering? Seems a bit much to me. 
 
Maybe I should post a 100pt juggler: 
 
3pts Ball Throwing 
3pts Ball Catching 
3pts Pin Throwing 
1pt  Familarity w/Flaming Pins 
3pts Pin Catching... 
 
Seriously though, it would interesting to see Rookie, Average, Skilled and 
Awesome skillsets (say 10, 20, 40 and 60pts) for a variety of 'action' careers 
(Journalist, Policeman, Soldier, Intelligence Agent, Private Investigator). 
 
							-Sam 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo wnsc_mail.centraltx.net from ronald@centraltx.net server root@mail.centraltx.net ip 208.135.247.48 
From: "Ron Abitz" <ronald@centraltx.net> 
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Joe Solider on 100 points?!?!? 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:16:14 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 11 
 
 
 
---------- 
> From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
> Standard US Army Infantry Solider 
>  
	 
> 1	PERK: Top Secret Security Clearance	 
 
This is the only one I would strongly argue with since the "standard" (AKA 
adverage) Infantry does not have any Security clearance. Enless uniyt 
mission requrements dectate otherwise. 
 
            Ron Abitz 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp3.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp3.erols.com ip 207.172.3.236 
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 23:20:50 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> 
CC: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com&> champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Kim Foster wrote: 
>  
 
>  
> The biggest objetion I have to the 200+ pt cop (or any "realistic NPC) is 
> that it does make PCs look incompotent. A hero who's a cop in his secret id 
> is likely going to come out quite a bit "underskilled" along these lines. 
>  
> This is really going to stick out in low level "Dark Champions" games where 
> investigation is spotlighted unless the PCs all resemble the Harbinger of 
> Justice point totalwise.... 
 
Thank you, Kim, for elucidating my misgivings more lucidly than I  
managed.  As soon as L&O comes out, my PCs who have law enforcement  
backgrounds are going to wave it in my face and demand ridiculous package  
deals so that their characters are as effective as "Joe." 
 
Mark, I respectfully express my opinion that it is harder to make the  
fine judgments that occupy the middle ground between excruciatingly  
detailed 200-pt normals and supremely abstracted normals who are nothing  
more than a PS and two KS's.  As such, I respectfully express my hope  
that this area of play will not be glossed over. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo bnllc2.blue.net from mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net server @bnllc2.blue.net ip 206.65.217.254 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:34:32 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: mlnunn@blue.net 
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Subject: Re: Joe Solider on 100 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 12 
 
>> From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
>> Standard US Army Infantry Solider 
>>  
>	 
>> 1	PERK: Top Secret Security Clearance	 
> 
>This is the only one I would strongly argue with since the "standard" (AKA 
>adverage) Infantry does not have any Security clearance. Enless uniyt 
>mission requrements dectate otherwise. 
 
 
Good point, that was a personal one I forgot to drop.  Most all Officers and 
Senior NCO would have this.  Lot's of standard soliders would have a Secret 
Clearance.  At least 1 out of every 3 would. 
 
Michael 
Rising Force Publications 
Herozine, The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist our recently updated web site... 
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
"You have never lived until you have almost died.  
And for those who fight for it, 
life has a flavor the protected never know"  
- anonymous 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo bnllc2.blue.net from mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net server @bnllc2.blue.net ip 206.65.217.254 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:37:47 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: mlnunn@blue.net 
To: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell), champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Subject: Re: Joe Solider on 100 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 13 
 
At 11:10 PM 4/13/98 -0700, Sam Bell wrote: 
> 
>A few nits: 
> 
>-> 1	Orienteering 8-	 
>-> (3)	Climbing 12-	 
>-> (1)	TF,Parachuting	 
>-> (3)	Navigation 11-	 
>-> (3)	Rappeling  11>	 
> 
>1) It costs 1pt to be able to parachute, but 3pts to climb and ANOTHER 3pts 
>to slide down a rope? I'd let people with the climbing skill rappel for free. 
 
Rappeling out of a moving Blackhawk is a lot diffrent from climbing down a hill. 
Maybe it should be a Fam. instead.  That's how Parachuting works, brakefall 
is the real skill you just need the TF.  
 
 
>2) After spending 3pts to be able to Navigate, you still need to spend another 
>point on Orienteering? Seems a bit much to me. 
 
I took classes in both Land Nav as well as Orienteering.  Orienteering would 
be a complimentary skill to Navigation.  So I guess you could drop it and 
let Nav cover both. 
 
Michael 
Rising Force Publications 
Herozine, The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist our recently updated web site... 
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
"You have never lived until you have almost died.  
And for those who fight for it, 
life has a flavor the protected never know"  
- anonymous 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo21.mx.aol.com from pat10355@aol.com server @imo21.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.65 
From: Pat10355 <Pat10355@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 03:51:06 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Joe Reporter 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 14 
 
OK, as a newspaper copy editor and former reporter, I'll take a crack at Joe 
Reporter. 
 
This is intended to represent an average reporter at a metro daily. TV and 
radio folks will be different, as will veteran or highly experienced 
reporters. 
 
10  STR  0 
10  DEX  0 
10  CON 0 
12  INT 2 
11  EGO 2 
13  PRE 3 
10  COM 0 
2  PD  0 
2  ED  0 
2  SPD 0 
4  REC 0 
20 END 0 
20 STUN 0 
Characteristics Cost: 7 
 
3  Conversation12- 
3  Persuasion 12- 
3  Choose One: Bureaucratics 12-, High Society 12-, Language (fluent 
w/accent), Streetwise 12-, Trading 12- 
1  Perk: Press Pass 
2  PS: Reporter 11- 
2  CK: City 11- 
2  AK: County or Region 11- 
4  KS: Beats (Choose 2: Local Government, State Government, Federal 
Government, Public Safety, Courts, Health, Business, Lifestyles, 
Entertainment, Science & Technology, Education, Transportation, Military, 
International Affairs, Politics, Religion 11-) 
2  KS: Own Newspaper 11- 
2  KS: Current Events 11- 
1  KS: Photography 8- 
1  KS: Local Newspapers & Reporters 8- 
1  KS: First Amendment & Open Meetings Laws 8- 
1  KS: Journalism History 8- 
5  Contacts: Other Journalists 8- 
10 Contacts: Sources 8- 
 
Skills Cost: 43 pts. 
Total Cost: 50 pts. 
 
Disadvantages 
Psych Lim: 
10  Code of ethics (common, moderate) 
10  Curious (common, moderate) 
Rivalry: 
5  Competitors (professional) 
 
Base Points: 25 + 
Disads: 25 = 
Total 50 
 
Other Power Levels: 
At a bare minimum, I'd say PS: Reporter 11-, Conversation and Persuasion would 
be appropriate. That would be lumping everything else under the PS. 
 
For a higher power level, it's really easy to add skills, particularly 
background ones like KS and CK. A foreign correspondent might have the Well- 
Traveled enhancer along with a good selection of major world cities, while a 
highly experienced business reporter might have KS slots for several of the 
top corporations she covers, for example. 
 
A couple of notes on my reasoning: 
 
Characteristics are pretty flexible -- reporters have to be fairly strong- 
willed and self-confident, but other than that it varies widely. Some are in 
terrible physical shape, and others run marathons for fun. 
 
Conversation and Persuasion are pretty much what the job is all about. The 
other skills are things you pick up on the beat. Many reporters learn a second 
language, in California often Spanish, to do a better job in a diverse U.S. 
 
There are no secrets in a newsroom, and reporters change jobs so often that 
after a few years you know someone at almost any paper. (Off the top of my 
head, I have former co-workers in Stockton, Fresno, Washington state, New York 
City, Idaho, Florida and Georgia. That's about 10 seconds worth of thought -- 
if I really worked on it, I could probably name another half-dozen states) 
 
Many reporters start their careers at small papers too cheap to hire a full- 
time photog, so you learn some camera-work. Most are familiar with laws 
pertaining to the job -- where you can and can't go legally, why the school 
board can't hold a secret meeting, etc. And anyone with a journalism degree 
knows something about journalism history. 
 
You'd be a pretty lame reporter with no sources, but most of your contacts 
aren't going to stick their necks out for you. That's why you need Persuasion. 
:) 
 
If you're not curious, you're not a reporter. If you don't care whether or not 
a rival paper scoops you, you're not a reporter. 
 
Yes, reporters do follow a code of ethics. This covers things like not paying 
for interviews, not accepting gifts from sources, writing accurately and 
fairly, and avoiding conflicts of interest -- such as covering a business you 
own stock in. 
 
Before people start in on ethics or lack thereof in the news biz, let me 
mention that in 12 years in the field I've seen one person flat-out fired for 
plagiarism and at least a half-dozen let go for persistent accuracy problems. 
There are exceptions, but most papers, and most reporters, do take this stuff 
seriously. 
 
Patrick Sweeney 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo post.mail.demon.net from chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk server @post-10.mail.demon.net ip 194.217.242.39 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:28:02 +0100 
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Watchmen 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 21 
 
If you are looking for a REALLY in depth look at the graphic novel itself 
(which is worth a lot more than some stats for the characters) then do a 
web search for "The Annotated Watchmen" (sorry - forgotten the URL) 
This epic piece of work disects the novel panel by panel and keys you in 
on all the brilliant background play that is going on throughout the 
novel. 
 
Sharky Dangerthorn wrote: 
 
> Wow!  Great website!  Thanks! 
> 
> ---Legionair <Legionair@aol.com> wrote: 
> > 
> > I don't remember who was looking for the Watchmen information, but I 
> found a 
> > pretty in-depth site on the subject... 
> > 
> > http://student-www.uchicago.edu/users/jbfliege/watchmen.html 
> > 
> > It has a full write up of the additional information that was in the 
> Mayfair 
> > DC Heroes supplement as well. 
> > 
> > Jason 
> > 
> 
> == 
> Jim Dickinson -=- Portland/Salem, OR, USA 
> a.k.a. Sharky Dangerthorn, Midget, Hey You! 
> Nicks on DALnet (IRC): Da_Midge Game_Knight 
> 
> Castle Game Knight: http://www.aircyber.net/~jd/cgk 
> Join the Circle of HEROs: http://www.aircyber.net/~jd/coh 
> _________________________________________________________ 
> DO YOU YAHOO!? 
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
 
 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo post.mail.demon.net from chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk server @post-10.mail.demon.net ip 194.217.242.39 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:36:48 +0100 
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Gadget Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
qts wrote: 
 
> On Mon, 13 Apr 1998 00:18:00 -0400 (EDT), Michael Surbrook wrote: 
> 
> >How would people write up a line gun?  For firing of climbing lines, not 
> >swing lines. 
> > 
> >Would one use Swinging? 
> >Stretching? 
> >I know that Ninja Hero talks about using Entangle, but I seems a bit odd 
> >to create a climbing line with that exact power. 
> 
> How about Stretching or Flight? I'd go for the former, having used it 
> for magic grappling hooks. 
> qts 
> 
> Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
  Flight works well for the Batman style of line (or the Spiderman - I can't 
believe that this guy is getting overlooking in the swinging line stakes!) 
with limitations such as "Only in urban environment" or "Requires purchase". 
The urban one is about -1/2 (if you take him out into the desert he's in 
trouble) but the "purchase" thing is only really worth about -1/4 as players 
will always find something to attach a line to... 
 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo post.mail.demon.net from chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk server @post-10.mail.demon.net ip 194.217.242.39 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:42:29 +0100 
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
CC: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Gadget Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
> At 12:18 AM 4/13/1998 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
> >How would people write up a line gun?  For firing of climbing lines, not 
> >swing lines. 
> > 
> >Would one use Swinging? 
> >Stretching? 
> >I know that Ninja Hero talks about using Entangle, but I seems a bit odd 
> >to create a climbing line with that exact power. 
> > 
> >Suggestions? 
>  
>    For my own part, I'd recommend a limited form of Flight.  It's also 
> possible to build it with limited Stretching as well, but I'd probably lean 
> toward Flight. 
>  
>    My Stretching model: 
>  
> 10" Stretching, Grabs & Pulls Only (-1), Range Penalties (-1/2), OAF (14) 
>  
>    My Flight model: 
>  
> 10" Flight, Requires Attack Roll (-1/2), Fragile Climbing Line (-1/2), 
> Vertical Only (-1), OAF (5) 
>  
>    The Flight model is not only cheaper, but arguably closer to the actual 
> effect of what happens. 
>    (Aside to Dave Mattingly: take these down for me, would ya?) 
> --- 
> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
> Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
The only thing I would disagree with here is the "upwards only" 
limitation. If the player is getting -1 for that I would enforce it 
pretty harshly. If you take a look at Batman the Animated Series (a 
great source for Bat swinging examples) he usually moves up and in a 
direction at quite some speed which is at odds with your flight model. 
How about decreasing it to -1/2 and offering a little more flexibility 
in movement? 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo post.mail.demon.net from chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk server @post-10.mail.demon.net ip 194.217.242.39 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:48:58 +0100 
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Hero Plus printed versions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 20 
 
Are the electronic books available in HTML format? 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo post.mail.demon.net from chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk server @post-10.mail.demon.net ip 194.217.242.39 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:55:07 +0100 
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
To: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
CC: Dennis C Hwang <dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu&> 
        "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com&> 
        "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: I need a name (oh no, not again! :) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> >> At 01:24 PM 4/13/98 -0500, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA wrote: 
> >> >Favorite Author/Favorite Book: 
> >> >    Just about anything on her hero, Joan of Arc. 
> >> > 
 
Pity she doesn't have a background in the police or other law 
enforcement. She'd be crying to be called Stakeout. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo exchange-irvine.platsoft.com from dmattingly@platsoft.com server @mail.platsoft.com ip 206.215.12.10 
From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Joe X on 25 points 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 05:42:59 -0700 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Here are some of the packages I describe at 
http://www.haymaker.org/haym16.html. Each package comes with a rank of 
Great, Good, and Fair, costing 25, 15, and 5 points respectively.  
 
Remember that complementary skills, extra time, familiarity of subject, 
good materials, etc. can add to rolls. In almost all cases, skills were 
not bought above 3 points. 
 
Programmer	 
25	15	5	Skills	 
3	3	3	Programming	 
3	3	1	Electronics	 
3	3	1	System Operation	 
2	2	1	AK: Internet	 
6	3		Speed Reading and/or Lightning Calculator	 
2	2		Computer Science	 
3	1		Security Systems	 
3	1		Cryptography	 
2	1		Math	 
2			Geek Contacts	 
-4			Programmer Package	 
 
Programmers can get computers to do what they want them to do, whether 
it be creating a software package, finding what they want in a database 
or on the internet, or hacking into a secure network. 
 
Some programmers can apply their computer and math expertise to other 
situations. 
 
Serious internet buffs often have friends all over the world, that they 
have never actually seen nor spoken to. 
 
 
Scientist	 
25	15	5	Skills	 
3	3	1	Electronics	 
3	3	1	Programming	 
1	1	1	Chemistry	 
1	1	1	Physics	 
1	1	1	Biology	 
1	1	1	Math	 
3	3		Scientist	 
3	1		Gadgeteering	 
3	1		Mechanics	 
3	1		System Operation	 
3	1		Inventor	 
1	1		Engineering	 
1			Robotics	 
1			Astronomy	 
1			Aeronautics	 
-4			Scientist Package	 
 
Scientists discover new aspects about ourselves and about the world 
around us. Whether they're theoretical or practical or a combination, 
they tend to have a lot of ideas brewing at once. 
 
With a more diverse scientific background, they can discover even more, 
so they tend towards strong general knowledge with one or two areas of 
specialization. 
 
Hours in the lab might seem like drudgery to the rest of us, but it's 
the highlight of a scientist's day. 
 
 
Paramedic	 
25	15	5	Skills	 
5	3	3	Paramedic	 
2	2	1	CK: City	 
2	2	1	P: Paramedic	 
1	1	1	Paramedic's License	 
3	3	*	Combat Driving	 
2	2		Pharmacology	 
2	2		Contact: Doctor	 
3	1		Medicine	 
1	1		Bureaucratics	 
3			Forensics	 
3			Mechanics	 
3			Bump of Direction	 
1			Criminology	 
1			Systems Operation	 
-4			Paramedic Package	 
 
Paramedics keep people alive long enough to get them to proper medical 
care. Skilled in both first aid and in driving, they can find their way 
around the city's side streets and around a patient's innards equally 
well. 
 
While a doctor and the proper equipment and medicine are needed for 
difficult diagnoses or operations, a paramedic can make sure you get 
there safely. 
 
 
Doctor	 
25	15	5	Skills	 
3	3	3	Paramedic	 
3	3	1	P: Doctor	 
2	2	1	K: Medicine	 
1	1	1	Doctor's License	 
3	*	*	Conversation	 
3	3		Forensics	 
2	3		K: Specialty	 
1	1		Pharmacology	 
1	1		Biology	 
1	1		Chemistry	 
3			Scholar	 
3			Scientist	 
1			K: Experimental Procedures	 
1			Bureaucratics	 
1			Programming	 
-4			Doctor Package	 
 
Doctors save lives and preserve our health. 
 
 
Newsroom Reporter	 
25	15	5	Skills	 
3	3	2	K: Journalism	 
3	3	1	Streetwise	 
3	2	1	K: News	 
2	1	1	P: Reporter	 
1	1	1	Press Pass	 
3	3	*	Deduction	 
3	3	*	Conversation	 
3	*	*	Concealment 	 
3	*	*	Stealth	 
2	1		CK: City	 
1	1		Bureaucratics	 
1			Programming	 
1			Criminology	 
-4			Newsroom Reporter Package	 
 
Newsroom reporters are generally given stories to research by their 
editor, and do most of their work at a desk. 
 
 
Investigative Reporter	 
25	15	5	Skills	 
3	3	1	Streetwise	 
3	3	1	Acting	 
1	1	1	P: Reporter	 
1	1	1	K: Journalism	 
1	1	1	Press Pass	 
1	1	1	CK: City	 
3	3	*	Disguise	 
3	3	*	Shadowing	 
3	3	*	Conversation	 
3	*	*	Deduction	 
3	*	*	Concealment 	 
3	*	*	Stealth	 
1			Criminology	 
-4			Investigative  Reporter Package	 
 
An investigative reporter goes undercover in the real world looking to 
expose the corruption they find. 
 
 
Lawyer	 
25	15	5	Skills	 
3	3	2	P: Lawyer	 
3	3	1	K: Law	 
3	3	1	Interrogation	 
2	2	1	K: Court	 
1	1	1	Lawyer's Certificate	 
3	*	*	Conversation	 
3	*	*	Persuasion	 
3	3		Streetwise	 
3	3		Criminology	 
3			Oratory	 
1			Bribery	 
1			Bureaucratics	 
-4			Lawyer Package	 
 
Lawyers put criminals in prison and clear the names of good men. 
 
 
Detective	 
25	15	5	Skills	 
2	2	2	Concealed Weapon Permit	 
3	3	1	Streetwise	 
3	1	1	Criminology	 
3	1	1	Bugging	 
1	1	1	Detective License	 
3	3	*	Deduction	 
3	3	*	Conversation	 
3	*	*	Stealth	 
3	1		Bribery	 
3	1		Gambling	 
2	1		WF: Pistols / Small Arms	 
2	1		CK: City	 
-4			Detective Package	 
 
Detectives find people. Cheating husbands, hiding felons, unidentified 
killers, long-lost brothers, and even missing dogs can all be found if 
you know where to look, and detectives do know where, or else they'll 
find out. 
 
Finding people who don't want to be found can be dangerous work at 
times, which is why many detectives carry a weapon. 
 
Piecing together various clues into a coherent picture is the 
detective's purview. So is dealing with people who live on the underside 
of society's belly. 
 
 
Patrol Policeman	 
25	15	5	Skills	 
2	2	2	Police Powers	 
2	2	2	Concealed Weapons Permit	 
3	2	1	K: Law Enforcement	 
2	2	1	K: Specialty	 
3	*	*	Combat Driving	 
3	*	*	Paramedic	 
3	3		Streetwise	 
3	3		Criminology	 
3	1		Bureaucratics	 
2	1		CK: City	 
1	1		Forensics	 
1			Mechanics	 
1			Electronics	 
1			Systems Operation	 
-4			Patrol Policeman Package	 
 
Patrol policemen walk (or drive or bike) a beat. Sometimes a particular 
beat, sometimes the route varies. 
 
 
Undercover Policeman	 
25	15	5	Skills	 
2	2	2	Police Powers	 
2	2	2	Concealed Weapons Permit	 
3	2	1	K: Law Enforcement	 
2	2	1	K: Specialty	 
3	*	*	Disguise	 
3	3		Streetwise	 
3	3		Criminology	 
3	1		Bureaucratics	 
2	1		CK: City	 
1	1		Forensics	 
3			Acting	 
2			Contact	 
1			Lockpicking	 
-4			Undercover Policeman Package	 
 
Undercover policemen, unlike beat officers, infiltrate specific groups 
of criminals to try to catch the bad guys in the act. 
 
 
Lab Tech Policeman	 
25	15	5	Skills	 
2	2	2	Police Powers	 
2	2	2	Concealed Weapons Permit	 
3	2	1	K: Law Enforcement	 
2	2	1	K: Specialty	 
3	3		Streetwise	 
3	3		Criminology	 
3	1		Bureaucratics	 
2	1		CK: City	 
1	1		Forensics	 
3			Bugging	 
3			Security Systems	 
1			Lockpicking	 
1			Electronics	 
1			Programming	 
-4			Lab Tech Policeman Package	 
 
Lab tech policemen are the scientists of the force. They analyze hair 
follicles, soil samples, etc. to prove the bad guys did it. 
 
 
Soldier	 
25	15	5	Skills	 
2	2	2	WF: Small Arms	 
3	3	1	Tactics	 
3	2	1	K: Military	 
2	1	1	P: Soldier	 
1	1	1	WF: Knives	 
3	3	*	Paramedic	 
3	3	*	Combat Driving	 
3	3		Survival	 
3	1		Breakfall	 
3	1		Parachuting	 
1	1		WF: Grenades	 
1			Acrobat	 
1			Demolitions	 
-4			Soldier Package	 
 
Soldiers are the fighting force of the world. They're at home on the 
battlefield and can kick your butt good. 
 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.haymaker.org 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 05:50:22 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 16 
 
At 09:20 PM 4/13/1998 EDT, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< That was a damn incredible list, making me absolutely convinced that I 
must 
>pick up the book when it is released. >> 
> 
>  Thanks, Tim. ;) 
> 
><< Many other jobs could recive this sort of fleshing out, especially 
>military. >> 
> 
>  Well, now that you mention it, we are covering Military Police in the book 
>as well... ;) 
 
   I'm with Tim on both comments -- that I will definitely buy this book, 
and that I'd like to see a book on the Military (general military) 
following this one at some point (even more than the book on attorneys that 
I suggested earlier in private mail). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2 
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: Joe Solider on 100 points?!?!? 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:23:01 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 19 
 
Bouncing it off of my military experience... 
 
Basically okay, except: 
 
The "Standard" Infantry Soldier doesn't have a TS, isn't airborne or air 
assault, is not an FO, doesn't have a weapon's permit, and doesn't know much 
about computers unless he learned it elsewhere.  You may want to throw hand 
grenades in there.  I think you are seriously overstating hand-to-hand 
training by giving a "Commando" martial art.  Body should be moved up a 
notch or two as well. 
 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From:	Michael Nunn [SMTP:mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net] 
> Sent:	Tuesday, April 14, 1998 1:51 AM 
> To:	champ-l@sysabend.org 
> Subject:	Joe Solider on 100 points?!?!? 
>  
> This for the most part is me.  I used my military backgound as a base and 
> did this write-up. There are several KS I might have been able to give 
> myself but I tried to stay at or near 100 pts. 
>  
> Michael 
>  
>  
>  
> Standard US Army Infantry Solider 
>  
> 13	STR	3 
> 14	DEX	12 
> 13	CON	6 
> 10	BODY	0 
> 13	INT	3 
> 11	EGO	2 
> 13	PRE	3 
> 10	COM	0 
> 5	PD	2 
> 4	ED	1 
> 3	SPD	6 
> 6	REC	0 
> 26	END	0 
> 24	STUN	0 
> Characteristics Cost: 38 
>  
> 2	PS: Job Before Joining Military	 
> 3	PS: Military Speciality	 
> 2	KS: Hobby 11-	 
> 1	Paramedic 8-	 
> 3	Tactics 12-	 
> 1	Computers 8-	 
> 1	Orienteering 8-	 
> 1	Weapon Permit	 
> 1	PERK: Top Secret Security Clearance	 
> 2	+1" Running	0 
> 5	1 Levels: Small Arms,related group	 
> 44	PKG,"Soldier"	 
> (7)	WF,Grenade Launchers,Heavy Machine Guns,Rocket Launchers,	 
> 	Man-Guided Missiles,Small Arms,Knives	 
> (2)	KS: Military 11-	 
> (2)	KS: Military History and Customs 11-	 
> (12)	Commando Training	 
> (3)	Climbing 12-	 
> (3)	Stealth 12-	 
> (3)	Survival 11-	 
> (1)	TF,Parachuting	 
> (3)	Navigation 11-	 
> (3)	1 Levels: w/3 related weapons (M16A2, M249 Saw, M9 9mm	 
> 	Barett,tight group	 
> (2)	PS: Forward Observer 11-	 
> (3)	Rappeling  11>	 
>  
> Powers Cost: 66 
> Total Cost: 104 
>  
> Base Points: 50 
> 5	Subject to recall 
> 5	Distinctive,"Military",easily concealable,minor 
> 10	Watched,"The US Army",more powerful,non-combat influence, 
> 	 harsh,appear 8- 
> 15	DNPC,"spouse",normal,appear 11- 
> 10	Psych Lim,"Military Mind Set",common,moderate 
> 5	Unluck,1D6 
>  
> Disadvantages Total: 50 
> Experience Spent: 4 
> Total Points: 104 
> Rising Force Publications 
> Herozine, The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist our recently updated web 
> site... 
> http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
>  
> "You have never lived until you have almost died.  
> And for those who fight for it, 
> life has a flavor the protected never know"  
> - anonymous 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo shell.infinex.com from rook@shell.infinex.com server rook@shell.infinex.com ip 207.201.8.250 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Joe Solider on 100 points?!?!? 
To: mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net (Michael Nunn) 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 06:43:09 -0700 (PDT) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 22 
 
> >> Standard US Army Infantry Solider 
> >	 
> >> 1	PERK: Top Secret Security Clearance	 
> > 
> >This is the only one I would strongly argue with since the "standard" (AKA 
> >adverage) Infantry does not have any Security clearance. Enless uniyt 
> >mission requrements dectate otherwise. 
>  
> Good point, that was a personal one I forgot to drop.  Most all Officers and 
> Senior NCO would have this.  Lot's of standard soliders would have a Secret 
> Clearance.  At least 1 out of every 3 would. 
> 
	Everyone in the Air Force has a 'Secret level' security clearance. 
This alows you to work with classified information and materials of up to 
a certain level (which I no longer remember how it was done) on a need to 
know basis. After that was Top Secret and one other. 1 out of 10 AF people 
would have the Top Secret; as the AF deals with high tech and 'information 
management' quite a lot. Quite a few of my buddies when I was in had the Top 
Secret, and even a few of them had the one after it. Such people where very 
easy to come by. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mars.superlink.net from why@saturn.superlink.net server root@mars.superlink.net ip 204.97.220.9 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Skills and setting their levels (was Re: Knights) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:58:41 -0400 (EDT) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Remember, going into this I know that we are not going to agree. 
 
> > No, you probably don't have all of that.  You can name 95% percent of the  
> > streets in Channahom and Minooka?  (And where they are in relation to each  
> > other?)  If I asked you how many houses were on such-and-such street, would  
> > you know?  Is there a short cut through back yards to get from Channon St  
> > to North St? (I used yahoo maps, I really don't know what I'm talking about:  
>   
> 	Um, yes, I would know 95%.  I delivered pizza there for 3 years  
> and that will definately give quite a KS roll.  Channon to North?  You  
> can cut through the yards, most aren't fenced.  Past Willard (which is two  
> separate streets, the one the map shows on the other side of Tryon and the  
> one that is a straight line to the NW from it connecting Channon and  
> North.)  It'd also be pretty easy to cut through the Library, the  
> ex-vacent lot that is now a clinic, or the shopping plaza.  But those are  
> the easy parts of Channahon.  The tough ones are out in the boonies that  
> actually aren't part of a city.  
 
You're original description of yourself did not include PS: Pizza 
delivery.  Otherwise I would not have doubted the AK 14-.  However, I am 
sure that most pizza deliverymen would not have AK 14-, maybe 12- or 13-. 
The average person does not keep track of which houses in their pizza 
delivery area are fenced. 
 
> 	If I know that much about the towns, though, I'd estimate that the  
> local police know at least as much.  That's a 14- or 15- AK, easy.  
 
For the police, a beat officer/patrolman might have a 12- or 13- but I 
don't accept the 14-.  That would be a veteran who has spent a lot of time 
in the town. 
 
I think the problem is that I am stingy with XPs because I see them as 
being very valuable.  If 5 XP is an extra die of damage, then 5 points of 
skill is a whole other level of experience.  I wouldn't give John Williams 
more than PS: Composor, 14- and PS: Conductor, 14-.  Any higher level 
would be absurd to me.  Normals should earn 2-3 XPs per year, AT MOST, 
IMHO.  You might argue the police, fireman, military personnel, ems, etc 
should earn more, but I would not more than double or triple that 2-3/year 
rate. 
 
  Joe 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo jcs1.jcstate.edu from ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu server @jcs1.jcstate.edu ip 204.117.72.52 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:03:16 -0500 (EST) 
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Whiplash & 0 END Density Increase & Magnetic Effects 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Cc: Ravanos <Ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 17 
 
	Whiplash is an villian with an amazing ammount of skill with her 
whip. 
	The only problem is, I'm not sure how to represent this... 
 
	I essentially want her to be able to do all sorts of 'whip 
tricks.' 
	I've been considering using a limited form of stretching, but that 
wouldn't allow me to "wrap 'em up" and leave them there... would it? 
	Other constructs I've been thinking about include a limited 
entangle, a limited TK, HA, HKA, and swinging.  Any other powers that you 
can think of? 
 
	I was also making a Brick with 0 END Stregnth and 2 levels of 
Density Increase 0 END, Persistant, Always On.  Is the STR that comes 
from DI also 0 END since DI was bought 0 END? 
 
 
	Mr. Metal is a robot made of space age ceramaics and plastics, but 
his skeleton is metal.  While he wouldn't take additional BODY or STUN 
from magnetic attacks, I was thinking about giving him X2 effect from any 
Magnetic attack. 
	I've often seen Magnetism modeled as a limited form of TK.  Would 
a TK that could lift the equivalent of a 20 STR now be able to lift him as 
if it was a 25 STR TK?  Or 40? 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2 
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk&> champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: The Watchmen 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:15:08 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
That's what this is... 
 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From:	Chris Lynch [SMTP:chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk] 
> Sent:	Tuesday, April 14, 1998 7:28 AM 
> To:	champ-l@sysabend.org 
> Subject:	Re: The Watchmen 
>  
> If you are looking for a REALLY in depth look at the graphic novel itself 
> (which is worth a lot more than some stats for the characters) then do a 
> web search for "The Annotated Watchmen" (sorry - forgotten the URL) 
> This epic piece of work disects the novel panel by panel and keys you in 
> on all the brilliant background play that is going on throughout the 
> novel. 
>  
> Sharky Dangerthorn wrote: 
>  
> > Wow!  Great website!  Thanks! 
> > 
> > ---Legionair <Legionair@aol.com> wrote: 
> > > 
> > > I don't remember who was looking for the Watchmen information, but I 
> > found a 
> > > pretty in-depth site on the subject... 
> > > 
> > > http://student-www.uchicago.edu/users/jbfliege/watchmen.html 
> > > 
> > > It has a full write up of the additional information that was in the 
> > Mayfair 
> > > DC Heroes supplement as well. 
> > > 
> > > Jason 
> > > 
> > 
> > == 
> > Jim Dickinson -=- Portland/Salem, OR, USA 
> > a.k.a. Sharky Dangerthorn, Midget, Hey You! 
> > Nicks on DALnet (IRC): Da_Midge Game_Knight 
> > 
> > Castle Game Knight: http://www.aircyber.net/~jd/cgk 
> > Join the Circle of HEROs: http://www.aircyber.net/~jd/coh 
> > _________________________________________________________ 
> > DO YOU YAHOO!? 
> > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
>  
>  
>  
>  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2 
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com&> mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: Joe Solider on 100 points?!?!? 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:32:09 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Just a little clarification of classification... 
 
Classification works like this:  Confidential(C), Secret(S), Top Secret(TS). 
There is nothing "after that."  If something needs to be even further 
restricted, we go into Special Compartmented Information(SCI) access.  Thus, 
your friend may have had a TS w/SCI access.  SCI has numerous 
sub-compartmentalizations for restriction by category, and no one (well, 
okay, a few people) has access to all compartments.  However, having a 
clearance of a specific level doesn't really mean anything, except the 
periodic annoyance of undergoing another NAC/BI/SBI.  "Need to Know" is the 
other factor.  If you don't need to know, it doesn't matter what your 
clearance level/access is. 
 
Jason Goode 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From:	Brian Wong [SMTP:rook@shell.infinex.com] 
> Sent:	Tuesday, April 14, 1998 9:43 AM 
> To:	mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net 
> Cc:	champ-l@sysabend.org 
> Subject:	Re: Joe Solider on 100 points?!?!? 
>  
> > >> Standard US Army Infantry Solider 
> > >	 
> > >> 1	PERK: Top Secret Security Clearance	 
> > > 
> > >This is the only one I would strongly argue with since the "standard" 
> (AKA 
> > >adverage) Infantry does not have any Security clearance. Enless uniyt 
> > >mission requrements dectate otherwise. 
> >  
> > Good point, that was a personal one I forgot to drop.  Most all Officers 
> and 
> > Senior NCO would have this.  Lot's of standard soliders would have a 
> Secret 
> > Clearance.  At least 1 out of every 3 would. 
> > 
> 	Everyone in the Air Force has a 'Secret level' security clearance. 
> This alows you to work with classified information and materials of up to 
> a certain level (which I no longer remember how it was done) on a need to 
> know basis. After that was Top Secret and one other. 1 out of 10 AF people 
> would have the Top Secret; as the AF deals with high tech and 'information 
> management' quite a lot. Quite a few of my buddies when I was in had the 
> Top 
> Secret, and even a few of them had the one after it. Such people where 
> very 
> easy to come by. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:42:34 -0700 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Gadget Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:42 PM 4/14/1998 +0100, Chris Lynch wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>> At 12:18 AM 4/13/1998 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>> >How would people write up a line gun?  For firing of climbing lines, not 
>> >swing lines. 
>>  
>> 10" Flight, Requires Attack Roll (-1/2), Fragile Climbing Line (-1/2), 
>> Vertical Only (-1), OAF (5) 
> 
>The only thing I would disagree with here is the "upwards only" 
>limitation. If the player is getting -1 for that I would enforce it 
>pretty harshly. If you take a look at Batman the Animated Series (a 
>great source for Bat swinging examples) he usually moves up and in a 
>direction at quite some speed which is at odds with your flight model. 
>How about decreasing it to -1/2 and offering a little more flexibility 
>in movement? 
 
   Sounds reasonable to me. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo dub-img-5.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @dub-img-5.compuserve.com ip 149.174.206.135 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:19:30 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Hero Plus: "Cardboard Heroes"? 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id LAA22430 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>>Is there a chance that Hero Games might be able to realease some 
"cardboard 
hero" type counters in electronic format?<< 
 
Lots of people (myself included) are asking for more of those cardboard 
"miniatures".  Hero or Gold Rush, are you taking notes?  :-)  My personal 
preference would be to have only silhouettes on these miniatures (just like 
the character sheets), so we could draw our own heroes/villains onto them.  
Sounds like an inexpensive project that is highly desired. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:22:14 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Skills and setting their levels (was Re: Knights) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> You're original description of yourself did not include PS: Pizza 
> delivery.  Otherwise I would not have doubted the AK 14-.  However, I am 
 
	Well, I was only giving my AK at the time.  But it's been a couple 
of years since I worked pizza.  Still, I'd say it's a profession that 
doesn't at all need a PS.  If you want to give it one, call it PS: Food 
Worker, 11- (I delivered, made pizza, managed, did paperwork, cleaned, 
prepped, etc.   I've also worked a Fast Food/Ice Cream Joint.  That's 
enough for the 11-.) 
 
> sure that most pizza deliverymen would not have AK 14-, maybe 12- or 13-. 
> The average person does not keep track of which houses in their pizza 
> delivery area are fenced. 
 
	True.  But with my much better than average memory, I'm good at 
remembering what is where.   Plus, I rode my bike around the area a lot 
when I was younger.  14- or  15- seems reasonable for me personally, 11- 
to 13- for most pizza drivers.  Give beginners a 8-. 
 
 
> > 	If I know that much about the towns, though, I'd estimate that the 
> > local police know at least as much.  That's a 14- or 15- AK, easy. 
> 
> For the police, a beat officer/patrolman might have a 12- or 13- but I 
> don't accept the 14-.  That would be a veteran who has spent a lot of time 
> in the town. 
 
	I don't buy it.  I'm positive that they knew more about the town 
then I did, and that's saying a lot.  Noted, it is a small (couple) of 
towns.  Knowing everything about them is quite easy. 
 
> I think the problem is that I am stingy with XPs because I see them as 
> being very valuable.  If 5 XP is an extra die of damage, then 5 points of 
> skill is a whole other level of experience.  I wouldn't give John Williams 
> more than PS: Composor, 14- and PS: Conductor, 14-.  Any higher level 
> would be absurd to me. 
 
	I'll kick myself, but, who's John Williams?  If a famous conductor 
at the international level, you would be looking at more the 18- level 
then the 14- level. 
 
> Normals should earn 2-3 XPs per year, AT MOST, 
> IMHO.  You might argue the police, fireman, military personnel, ems, etc 
> should earn more, but I would not more than double or triple that 2-3/year 
> rate. 
 
	Easily more than double or triple.  The thing about XPs are that 
most end up being earmarked into contacts, favors, KSs, AKs, PSs, etc. 
They aren't freely spendable.  Most of a Police Officers would be this 
way, with perhaps some improvements to highly-used skills: Psychology, 
Weapon Usage, etc. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hermes.ldd.net from redbf@ldd.net server @hermes.ldd.net ip 209.16.220.10 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:31:24 -0500 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net 
Organization: GM's R US 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Professional Skills 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
        Seems to me there is a lot of talk about what exactly a 
Proffesional Skill covers and what it doesn't cover so I am including my 
own House rules here for you to flame on. 
 
        If there are no other applicable skills to the Proffesion, such 
as Pro Football player, then the 
PS: Football Player gives the player: 
        a) the ability to play Football, 
        b) the ability to know the rules of Football, 
        c) the ability to know the little things a football star would 
know like other players, agents, rules of the league, etc. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hermes.ldd.net from redbf@ldd.net server @hermes.ldd.net ip 209.16.220.10 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:34:54 -0500 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net 
Organization: GM's R US 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Proffesional Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
        Left some off of the last message...hit send a little to quick. 
 
        My house rules also include the idea the if the Proffesional 
skill has another applicable skill than the player must have that skill. 
For example: 
 
    Player purchases PS: Computer Programmer. In this case the PS does 
NOT help the player perform the skill, for that they need Computer 
Programing. However, the skill does help the player know where to look 
for jobs, the names of other computer programmers, and other such 
trivialities. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hermes.ldd.net from redbf@ldd.net server @hermes.ldd.net ip 209.16.220.10 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:47:57 -0500 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net 
Organization: GM's R US 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Equipment 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
        I was wondering how other peoople handle equipment and the 
points spent for it. 
 
        For me it depends on the type of campaign that I am 
Gamemastering. If the campaign is a superheroic game then I feel 
compelled to make up the equipment as a character going through all the 
list of it's powers, advantages, and disadvantages. This way if a 
Villian or Hero acquires the item I now how much it is relatively worth. 
 
        However, for more Heroic and low point level campaigns I don't 
worry about the cost of equipement as much. If the character picks up a 
gun, I just say "fine you have the gun" and it does whatever the gun 
does. 
        What brings this up is the fact that I was looking through a 
copy of the never published Star Hero 2nd edition and they had listed in 
it how much it would cost to give a ship of certain sizes artificial 
gravity. The question is, outside of a Supers campaign why would this 
matter? Am I wrong in thinking that it would be okay and not unbalancing 
to just say "fine your ship has artifical gravity"? 
        I know that as GM I can make what ever rule that I want, and 
I'll do that anyway, but how do other GM's out there do it. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mln.lib.ma.us from nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us server @mln.lib.ma.us ip 198.112.12.10 
X-Sender: nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:30:18 -0400 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us> 
Subject: Re: Equipment 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:47 AM 4/14/98 -0500, bobby farris wrote: 
 
>        What brings this up is the fact that I was looking through a 
>copy of the never published Star Hero 2nd edition and they had listed in 
>it how much it would cost to give a ship of certain sizes artificial 
>gravity. The question is, outside of a Supers campaign why would this 
>matter? Am I wrong in thinking that it would be okay and not unbalancing 
>to just say "fine your ship has artifical gravity"? 
 
I haven't seen the proto-2nd edition, but the 1st edition Star Hero had a 
system for calculating monetary cost based on the points in an item. It 
also based the _size_ of a piece of technology on the active points, which 
I thought was quite inspired - it gave a game mechanics reason why it's 
easier to build an FTL cruiser than an FTL fighter. (This could be 
overridden by the Miniaturization advantage, which was pretty cool too.) 
 
Another reason to build equipment in rules mechanics is to deal with 
Drains, Suppresses, etc. - valid concerns for most SF games. (And for 
Fantasy Games with magical counterspells, etc.) 
 
For most heroic games, though, I fudge most of the equipment like you do.  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo arl-img-1.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @arl-img-1.compuserve.com ip 149.174.217.131 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:30:53 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: More supplement reviews 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id MAA25332 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Here's a third list of supplements I'd appreciate getting reviews/opinions 
on.  The twist here is that I already own some of these, but maybe have a 
problem with them and want to see how they are viewed by the overall 
audience. 
 
* Challenges for Champions 
* Invaders from Below 
* The Olympians 
* Champions Presents #1 and #2 
* Pyramid in the Sky 
* Watchers of the Dragon 
 
I'm also curious about this "Hero Games Deluxe 3-ring Binder" that is for 
sale on the Hero Games web page.  Does the cover match the 4E hardbound 
book?  How big is the binder?  Our hardbound book fell apart not long after 
we bought it, so we put all the pages into plastic sleeves and put those 
into a 3-ring binder.  We have a really thick binder which holds the first 
two sections, but we had to put the Champions sourcebook into a separate 
binder...those plastic sleeves greatly increased the thickness of the 4E 
hardbound book.  I would buy a copy of Champions Deluxe since the binder is 
a headache compared to a normal book, but since 5E is on the way, I'll wait 
on it.  In the meantime, it might be nice to have 4E in a "pretty" binder 
rather than the plain gray one it's in now...$6 isn't too much to tack onto 
a larger order. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo arl-img-3.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @arl-img-3.compuserve.com ip 149.174.217.133 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:40:51 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Corporations 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id MAA25684 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>   For myself, I wouldn't.  The only reason for that, though, is that I 
don't (yet) own any of the C:NM stuff.  Once I've bought all the C:NM 
books, though (which I fully do intend to do), I could give you a 
comparison.< 
 
Well, the basic gist of the "60 pages about 30 things" section of the Bay 
City book is that they spend one page talking about a location, and a 
second page talking about a character associated with that location.  I'm 
assuming that Corporations goes into a lot more detail than can be handled 
in two pages, though.  Corporations is on my list of books to get, but it's 
not top priority.  The ones at the top so far are Atlantis, Allies, and 
Enemies Assemble. 
 
Just in a general sense and without ranking them or anything (unless you 
want to take the time to do so), what would you say are the best three to 
five 4E Champions supplements?  Worst three to five? 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail1.geo.net from lizard@mrlizard.com server @mail1.geo.net ip 166.90.101.11 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:57:26 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
...should have average stats -- straight 8-10, with maybe 1 or 2 stats at 
11. The rest of his 25 points should go to skills. 
 
Most of the sample 'average' characters have stats which are too high. 
 
Remember:Only 2% of the population has an IQ of 130+ (INT 13-14). 1/100th 
of 1% has an IQ of 180+ (INT 18+). The same figures apply to physical stats 
as well, or should. As an example, here's my estimate of my own stats: 
 
STR:8 
DEX:9 
CON:9 
INT:15 (Yes, that's what I test at. Scary, ain't it?) 
EGO:11/20 (+9 EGO, limit:Only via the net, -2) 
PRE:10/20 (+10 PRE, limit as above, -2) 
COM:8 
Figure figured stats as normal, except +5 END, to represent the fact I walk 
a lot and can keep plugging away longer than you'd expect given the rest of 
my physical condition. 
 
Skills: 
KS:Geek stuff, 15- 
PS:Programmer, 12- 
AK:San Francisco, 8-, NYC,11- 
PS:Writer, 11- 
WF:Handguns 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hil-img-8.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @hil-img-8.compuserve.com ip 149.174.177.138 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:59:20 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Which published villains do you use? 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id NAA26507 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
I'm just curious, which published villains make regular appearances in your 
campaigns?  I assume Viper is probably a mainstay in the majority of 
campaigns, but how about groups like Zodiac or solo villains like Dark 
Seraph (just to throw out some names)?  My campaign has just started so I 
haven't pinned down the regulars yet, but in past campaigns Viper and Demon 
were the two most regularly featured villain organizations, and Terror, 
Inc. was also a big player. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:14:27 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Professional Skills 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
	Well, I'm not too sure. 
 
 
>         If there are no other applicable skills to the Proffesion, such 
> as Pro Football player, then the 
> PS: Football Player gives the player: 
>         a) the ability to play Football, 
 
	I'd call this more of a new skill:  Football.  Dex-based. 
 
>         b) the ability to know the rules of Football, 
>         c) the ability to know the little things a football star would 
> know like other players, agents, rules of the league, etc. 
 
	Yeah.  Pretty much.  This would be handling the basic aspects of 
being a player of the game.  The Dex-Based skill would be for actually 
physically performing your portion of the game.  Add a WF: Thrown Objects 
for Quarterbacks.  Many would also have a KS: Current and Past Players; 
KS: Sports Reporters and the like.  It's easy to branch out from a basic 
two skills. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hermes.ldd.net from redbf@ldd.net server @hermes.ldd.net ip 209.16.220.10 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:18:46 -0500 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net 
Organization: Redbow Antiques 
To: "Don S." <dschniepp@ldd.net> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Adventure Idea 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
        Okay, on the 12 noon news I hear a report that the military 
loaded some napalm on a train to take it to be destroyed. Well, the 
company that was going to destroy it backed out of the deal and now they 
are not sure where the train is. They think it is somewhere in the New 
Mexico area. 
 
        Is this a GM's plot or what? 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:23:42 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> ...should have average stats -- straight 8-10, with maybe 1 or 2 stats at 
> 11. The rest of his 25 points should go to skills. 
 
	Yeah.  And we're talking, for the "average man", a non-college 
educated individual.  College, as I've argued, both adds skills and 
indicates a sense of being "above average" enough for more points. 
 
> Most of the sample 'average' characters have stats which are too high. 
 
	Disagreed. 
 
> Remember:Only 2% of the population has an IQ of 130+ (INT 13-14). 1/100th 
> of 1% has an IQ of 180+ (INT 18+). The same figures apply to physical stats 
> as well, or should. As an example, here's my estimate of my own stats: 
 
	I'd disagree on your INT estimates.  As INT is differentiated only 
by skill rolls, it should probably be looked at as extending easily to 30 
for normals, considering that the age lim pushes it close to this.  This 
allows for much more significance to INT scores.  I'd say Genius level and 
above would have a 20+. 
 
> STR:8 
 
	Hmmm.  How are you judging STR?  If by bench press, this may be 
OK, may be too high.  If, however, by dead lift or some other such method, 
you might want to up this. 
 
> DEX:9 
 
	You're a little less skilled than average? 
 
> CON:9 
 
	Hmmm.  Based on your extra End argument, you may want to up this. 
 
> INT:15 (Yes, that's what I test at. Scary, ain't it?) 
 
	See above.  This would work out to a 20-23, probably, in an 
expanded INT. 
 
> EGO:11/20 (+9 EGO, limit:Only via the net, -2) 
 
	Eh?  Explain. 
 
> PRE:10/20 (+10 PRE, limit as above, -2) 
 
	See above. 
 
> COM:8 
 
	Sure. 
 
> Figure figured stats as normal, except +5 END, to represent the fact I walk 
> a lot and can keep plugging away longer than you'd expect given the rest of 
> my physical condition. 
 
	See above. 
 
> KS:Geek stuff, 15- 
 
	This would qualify, to me, as a "useless skill" that won't cost 
you any points. 
 
> PS:Programmer, 12- 
 
	Fine.  Where's the Computer Programing skill to go with it. 
 
> AK:San Francisco, 8-, NYC,11- 
 
	Well, NYC is big enough that most specific questions would come 
with a negative modifier, so this is pretty good. 
 
> PS:Writer, 11- 
 
	A writing skill to go with it?  This will help you try to get 
something published, but not write it. 
 
> WF:Handguns 
 
	Maybe a WF:Knives, WF:Thrown, or something similar you've 
overlooked? 
 
	Whatabout college courses.  Most would be useless skills, but some 
may provide useful ones at the 8- level.  Sports?  These would be KS 
and/or PS. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo shell.infinex.com from rook@shell.infinex.com server rook@shell.infinex.com ip 207.201.8.250 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Which published villains do you use? 
To: DBStallard@compuserve.com (David B Stallard) 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:26:55 -0700 (PDT) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> I'm just curious, which published villains make regular appearances in your 
 
	None and all. 
 
That is, when I need quick stats I pull out an enemies book and open to the 
first page with a picture that looks like the guy has the powers I want. 
	But none of the villians in the books get used as is. 
I am using a set of V&V published villians as is right now, converted to Hero; 
but I'll make em unique enough before the combat starts up anyway. 
 
	If a one time villian becomes a regular, he'll get a paragraph like 
write up which will expand out as time goes on and he/she becomes more and more 
important. So far only one villian has 'grown out' in this way. A minor 
super strength thug who's punch turned people to stone, named 'Stone' of 
course. :) He's gotten to his 'second appearance' stage and the players suspect 
he'll become a regular. So naturally I'll find a use for him somewhere and let 
him grow from there. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hermes.ldd.net from redbf@ldd.net server @hermes.ldd.net ip 209.16.220.10 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:28:54 -0500 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net 
Organization: Redbow Antiques 
To: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Which published villains do you use? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
David B Stallard wrote: 
 
> I'm just curious, which published villains make regular appearances in your 
> campaigns?  I assume Viper is probably a mainstay in the majority of 
> campaigns, but how about groups like Zodiac or solo villains like Dark 
> Seraph (just to throw out some names)?  My campaign has just started so I 
> haven't pinned down the regulars yet, but in past campaigns Viper and Demon 
> were the two most regularly featured villain organizations, and Terror, 
> Inc. was also a big player. 
 
          Well, I like to use the Conquerors or the Ultimates. In fact my 
present campaign is based on the idea in Enemies Ensemble where the Ultimates 
form and go from a minor Villian group to a MAJOR Villian group, I just changed 
their names. 
            As far as groups are concerned I use Viper and since my players 
like mutants I like to use Genocide a lot. If you have any telepaths PSI is a 
great group to use. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo14.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo14.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.36 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:35:45 EDT 
To: trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>   Being eligible for the Sgt.'s exam is based almost entirely on years of 
> service in our department. Just FYI. 
 
<< That is XP, isn't it? Just plain experience in the field? >> 
 
  No. It is years on the department. In our department one can work in any 
number of different divisions: Corrections, Investigative Services, Court 
Security, Administration, Patrol Services, etc. Just having years on does not 
give one more patrol experience necessarily. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail.ucsf.edu from dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu server @mail.ucsf.EDU ip 128.218.95.23 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:43:45 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Dennis C Hwang <dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu> 
To: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Lizard wrote: 
 
> ...should have average stats -- straight 8-10, with maybe 1 or 2 stats at 
> 11. The rest of his 25 points should go to skills. 
>  
> Most of the sample 'average' characters have stats which are too high. 
>  
> Remember:Only 2% of the population has an IQ of 130+ (INT 13-14). 1/100th 
> of 1% has an IQ of 180+ (INT 18+). The same figures apply to physical stats 
> as well, or should.  
 
Well, I think this brings up an interesting point.  Since the Hero 
System's "Normals Max Out At 20" rule isn't really hard-and-fast (just 
pay double), do "normals" really max out at 20?  With relatively cheap 
stats like STR, INT, PRE, and COM, especially, it's not that expensive to 
create ostensible "normals" with stats above 20.  This implies (to me) 
that normals with stats >20 are actually not overly unusual, given a large 
enough population. 
 
My take on it is that the 8-20 range represents the mean +/- 2SD of the 
hypothetical normal distribution for adult humans.  This leaves a 
remaining 2.5% on either end to have values >20 or <8, and also expands 
the range of stats available to normals.  (Of course, if I had my way, 
we'd also be using a stat/3-based skill system, so that more of the 
intervening numbers *mean* something, but that's a topic for another 
post...:) 
 
I also don't think that INT in game terms qualifies as IQ (Wechsler scale, 
presumably) divided by 10, since it's specifically described in the 
rulebook as, essentially, how quickly someone thinks. 
 
> As an example, here's my estimate of my own stats: 
 
As a fellow player, I hereby refrain from comment. ;) 
 
> STR:8 
> DEX:9 
> CON:9 
> INT:15 (Yes, that's what I test at. Scary, ain't it?) 
> EGO:11/20 (+9 EGO, limit:Only via the net, -2) 
> PRE:10/20 (+10 PRE, limit as above, -2) 
> COM:8 
 
What about BODY?  BODY is actually one of the stats with which I have a 
great deal of conceptual trouble.  In game terms, it seems analogous to, 
essentially, Hit Points.  But what does that translate to in real life 
(tm)?  Mass?  Will to Live?  Damage Resistance?  Physique? 
 
I generally end up thinking of BODY as overall mass (kind of like 
Chaosium's SIZ attribute), but this usually leads to my characters 
rarely buying up BODY, since I don't picture them as significantly larger 
than average. 
 
> Figure figured stats as normal, except +5 END, to represent the fact I walk 
> a lot and can keep plugging away longer than you'd expect given the rest of 
> my physical condition. 
>  
> Skills: 
> KS:Geek stuff, 15- 
> PS:Programmer, 12- 
> AK:San Francisco, 8-, NYC,11- 
> PS:Writer, 11- 
> WF:Handguns 
 
--Dennis 
************************************************************* 
*   dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu   *   xenopathologist at large!   * 
************************************************************* 
*   So...you're keeping me alive because you don't know     * 
*   DOS.                                                    * 
*                                                           * 
*                       --Izzy to Gabriel                   * 
*                         THE PROPHECY II                   * 
************************************************************* 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo11.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo11.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.33 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:48:08 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< Exciting yes, but still "routine", definatly not worth a point of 
experience for every night showing up for work. If so, Super PCs should get 
one for every mugger they stop, every cat the flying guy gets out of tree on 
their patrols >> 
 
  That's your call as GM. ;)  I'm not sure how you define "routine" in this 
instance. I think we agree, however, that cops wouldn't get experience (in 
game terms) for each night of work. 
 
<< The biggest objetion I have to the 200+ pt cop (or any "realistic NPC) is 
that it does make PCs look incompotent. A hero who's a cop in his secret id is 
likely going to come out quite a bit "underskilled" along these lines. >> 
 
  You don't have to use the detailed write-up in a superhero game. And even if 
you do and you want your PCs to have more skills, increase the points you 
allow players to build their PCs with. You could even give them an extra 25 
Pts "Only for background skills" or some such. 
 
<< This is really going to stick out in low level "Dark Champions" games where 
investigation is spotlighted unless the PCs all resemble the Harbinger of 
Justice point totalwise.... >> 
 
  Once again I say... point totals are not the absolute measure of a 
character. If you want characters to have more skills while keeping a decent 
power level, give them more points for their characters. If you want your cops 
to be 50 Pt. agents then by all means go for it. 
 
> even my 200-250 Point cops are no match for one 200 point... supervillain 
 
<< Perhaps on a combat basis but skillwise is another issue. >> 
 
  Okay, I'm going to make a general statement again. This is not the opinion 
of Gold Rush Games or Hero Games. It is my own. 
 
  "Typical" PCs in Champions are incompetent when it comes to skills. There is 
a fix, of course -- give them more points to buy the skills with. 
Unfortunately most players seem to be stuck on this 250 Pt limit because 
"that's what it says in the book." If you want more skills for your 
characters, give them more points. Period. 
 
  Mark 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo21.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo21.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.65 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:49:08 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< The biggest objetion I have to the 200+ pt cop (or any "realistic NPC) is 
that it does make PCs look incompotent.>> 
 
  Then don't use them. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail1.geo.net from lizard@mrlizard.com server @mail1.geo.net ip 166.90.101.11 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:55:01 -0700 
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:23 PM 4/14/98 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
>> ...should have average stats -- straight 8-10, with maybe 1 or 2 stats at 
>> 11. The rest of his 25 points should go to skills. 
> 
>	Yeah.  And we're talking, for the "average man", a non-college 
>educated individual.  College, as I've argued, both adds skills and 
>indicates a sense of being "above average" enough for more points. 
> 
>> Most of the sample 'average' characters have stats which are too high. 
> 
>	Disagreed. 
> 
>> Remember:Only 2% of the population has an IQ of 130+ (INT 13-14). 1/100th 
>> of 1% has an IQ of 180+ (INT 18+). The same figures apply to physical stats 
>> as well, or should. As an example, here's my estimate of my own stats: 
> 
>	I'd disagree on your INT estimates.  As INT is differentiated only 
>by skill rolls, it should probably be looked at as extending easily to 30 
>for normals, considering that the age lim pushes it close to this.  This 
>allows for much more significance to INT scores.  I'd say Genius level and 
>above would have a 20+. 
> 
If you extend stats to 30 Normal Max, sure. Otherwise, the scale is 
compressed. 
 
>> STR:8 
> 
>	Hmmm.  How are you judging STR?  If by bench press, this may be 
>OK, may be too high.  If, however, by dead lift or some other such method, 
>you might want to up this. 
> 
Based on the fact I'm out of shape and don't exericse, but I'm not 
seriously hindred in day-to-day to life;I have no trouble lugging stuff 
around, but it's more of a strain for me than for most of my peers. Or 
maybe I just bitch more than they do. 
 
>> DEX:9 
> 
>	You're a little less skilled than average? 
> 
Perhaps it ought to be lower. I trip over wrinkles in the force. 
 
>> CON:9 
> 
>	Hmmm.  Based on your extra End argument, you may want to up this. 
> 
Possibly, but no more than average at best. 
 
 
>> EGO:11/20 (+9 EGO, limit:Only via the net, -2) 
> 
>	Eh?  Explain. 
> 
>> PRE:10/20 (+10 PRE, limit as above, -2) 
> 
>	See above. 
 
I'm a lot more strong-willed (EGO) and intimidating (PRE) when I'm in my 
net persona. I tend to be much more agreeable in real life, where there's a 
risk of getting my face punched in. 
 
>> COM:8 
> 
>	Sure. 
> 
Gee, thanks.  
 
 
>> KS:Geek stuff, 15- 
> 
>	This would qualify, to me, as a "useless skill" that won't cost 
>you any points. 
> 
Fair enough, but it ought to be listed. 
 
>> PS:Programmer, 12- 
> 
>	Fine.  Where's the Computer Programing skill to go with it. 
> 
Computer Programming, 13-. 
 
>> AK:San Francisco, 8-, NYC,11- 
> 
>	Well, NYC is big enough that most specific questions would come 
>with a negative modifier, so this is pretty good. 
> 
>> PS:Writer, 11- 
> 
>	A writing skill to go with it?  This will help you try to get 
>something published, but not write it. 
 
There is no specific 'writing' skill, so what do you suggest? I'd say my 
writing ability is 11-, my knowledge of being a professional writer is a 
Familiarity, 8-. 
 
>> WF:Handguns 
> 
>	Maybe a WF:Knives, WF:Thrown, or something similar you've 
>overlooked? 
> 
No training in any of those. I do have handgun training and experience. 
 
>	Whatabout college courses.  Most would be useless skills, but some 
>may provide useful ones at the 8- level.  Sports?  These would be KS 
>and/or PS. 
 
No sports, certainly. Other skills would be: 
History, 8- 
General Science 8-  
Philosophy, 8- 
PS:Salesman, 11- 
Language:English, beyond fluent. (This isn't on the chart. How do you 
represent someone with a command of the language BEYOND that of the typical 
native speaker?) 
 
Most of my knowledge skills (history of comics, knowledge of RPGs, 
knowledge of anime, computer history, quote every line from Star Wars and 
Monty Python, etc) are subsumed under 'geek stuff'.  
 
I hesitate to list my disads because I'd end up being a 300 point character 
if I did. :) 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo smtp2.globalserve.net from hartjes@ionsys.com server @smtp2.globalserve.net ip 209.90.128.7 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:55:42 -0400 
From: Chris Hartjes <hartjes@ionsys.com> 
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Which published villains do you use? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
David B Stallard wrote: 
>  
> I'm just curious, which published villains make regular appearances in your 
> campaigns?  I assume Viper is probably a mainstay in the majority of 
> campaigns, but how about groups like Zodiac or solo villains like Dark 
> Seraph (just to throw out some names)?  My campaign has just started so I 
> haven't pinned down the regulars yet, but in past campaigns Viper and Demon 
> were the two most regularly featured villain organizations, and Terror, 
> Inc. was also a big player. 
 
I tend to make up my own organizations and villians because often they 
wouldn't fit into my campaign world without a lot of changes.  I tend 
not to like organizations like Viper and Demon because it seems to me 
that unless they always acted in secret or disguised their efforts, 
*someone* would organize an effective resistance and destroy them. 
 
Chris Hartjes 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mason2.gmu.edu from wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu server @mason2.gmu.edu ip 129.174.1.11 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:56:12 -0400 (EDT) 
From: William K Bushway <wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu> 
X-Sender: wbushway@mason2.gmu.edu 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: More supplement reviews 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, David B Stallard wrote: 
 
	I'll comment on the two I own; 
 
> * The Olympians 
 
	I purchased this for the writeups of the Greek/Roman gods.  I 
needed some inspiration for powers for Olympian, my Fawcett 
Cpt.Marvel-type hero (Shazam!).  I wasn't really that impressed; the gods' 
powers were rather bland, the only thing making them dangerous were their  
sheer point totals.  The book also provided only the most cursory of 
coverage of Greek Heroes and Demigods, both major parts of Greek 
mythology. 
 
	If I remember correctly (I don't have it in front of me), the book 
doesn't give any very inpired scenario ideas to anchor the Gods in the 
campaign.  They're mentioned in Champions Universe, but haven't had 
much of an impact on continuity.  The book also doesn't say anything on  
the Greek Gods during the ancient period; a little Greek history would 
have been nice.  The location maps were pretty lame; just overhead views 
with place names, no descriptions. 
 
	I guess that the book's worth picking up at a discount, if you're 
interested in one take on the Greek gods. 
 
> * Champions Presents #1 
 
	Actual published adventures for Champions are so rare, it's hard 
to pass on picking them up.  Like always, some tailoring is necessary 
before use. 
 
	Seeing as my campaign-to-be is set in D.C., I'll probably get the 
most use out of Spectrum.  A pretty well fleshed-out superteam, along with 
a scenario to use them in?  You can't beat that with stick.  I especially 
liked the way Prism's background ties into those of other Champions  
Universe characters. 
 
	The time travelling scenario is useful, if only to give you a 
workable example on how to set one up.  It also gives you a nice 
smattering of characters from different genres.  I especially liked the 
concepts of the Pulp-style characters, Crimestopper and the Masque. 
 
	The Inuit Ice-Demon scenario, however, just fell flat with me. 
The only thing I could salvage from that one were the pictures for Ice 
Shadow, and the big baddie, who'll appear in my game under different 
identities. 
 
	Of course, you'll have to take my reviews with a grain of salt; I 
haven't actually had a chance to use _either_ book in a game yet. :P 
 
	          William K. Bushway, wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu 
	          http://Mason.GMU.edu/~wbushway/index.html 
	   "I'm betting that I'm just abnormal enough to survive." 
		    -The Tick, The Tick Vs.The Breadmaster 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo11.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo11.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.33 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:00:42 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Law& Order (was Re: Joe Cop...) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< To a degree. But HERO is perfectly comfortable 'blowing off' those detailed 
writeups for 'stock' characters. >> 
 
  Just as comfortable as it is using the detailed write-ups. ;) 
 
<< Even in a Police-centered campaign, I'd expect the standard police officer 
to be written up pretty much the same as in a Superhero campaign. >> 
 
  Then that is what you should use. Not everyone agrees, however. Some people 
want to see the detailed write-ups. 
 
<< True, but I get a sneaking suspicion you might be a tad offended if it 
happened in your campaign ^_^. >> 
 
  That's why it's called "my campaign." I'd be silly to let someone else 
dictate how I should GM my own game (except when it comes to players having 
fun). 
 
<< Don't laugh, Watchers of the Dragon couldn't build 'popcorn' ninja to fight 
heroic characters on less than 150 points, and made ninja for fighting 
superheroes start at 250 points*. >> 
 
  That is perfectly appropriate given the subbject of the book. What's more, 
el cheapo 50 Pt ninja have been published elsewhere. I don't see what the 
problem is. If you like them you use them. If you kinda like them, tweak them 
until they're usable to you. If you don't like them at all, then ignore them. 
It's a printed page, not a mystic curse. <LOL> 
 
<< THIS is the sort of error I don't want to see in Law and Order. I just want 
to stress the importance of starting the scale as low as possible/believable - 
from there, go as high as you please! >> 
 
 What in the world ever gave you the idea that we weren't presenting less- 
expensive alternatives to this stuff? Has no one been reading my posts 
thoroughly? 
 
<< Watchers of the Dragon _didn't_ make allowances for most styles of game 
play 
- they had the uber-ninjas galore, but lacked the lower end. Ninja Hero is 
better in this respect, giving 100 and 120 point heroic ninja, which is 
probably the reasonable bottom end on ninja-hood. >> 
 
  In your opinion. That's fine. But if you want "realistically accurate" 
ninja... 
 
<< I just wanted to point out that 'abstracted' is not the same as 
'unrealistic', and abstracted costs a whole lot less (what if I want to have 
Police Officers as followers, or Summon them? I want them cheap and cost 
effective as possible, right? :-).>> 
 
  That a player-centric view. As a GM, I would want you to pay for what you 
were getting. If you want retarded cops who carry cap guns and plastic 
handcuffs, fine. Here you go. But if you want a "real" cop... prepare to pay a 
little more for it. 
 
  To be honest, however, I'm starting to get a little bored with some of the 
same comments over and over and over again in this thread. It's this very 
reason that I seldom post anything of substance to the HML. It's a shame that 
people can't simply state their opinion, seek clarification, and say "Hm. I 
wouldn't use that, but it is cool to see. I wonder what else they're going to 
do in the book?"  
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo exchange-irvine.platsoft.com from dmattingly@platsoft.com server @mail.platsoft.com ip 206.215.12.10 
From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Equipment 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:07:13 -0700 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Another reason for listing costs of spaceship equipment is that it's a 
benchmark to compare effectiveness of one craft versus another. Your 
ship can specialize in being maneuverable, stealthy, or offensive. 
 
In my old Star Hero campaign, I told my players that they had X points 
to spend on a spaceship, from the given equipment list in the book. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.haymaker.org 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo13.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo13.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.35 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:13:59 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Law& Order 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< What about the UCMJ and the Militay Police and it's various forms? The DEA, 
and all the Govt. agencies? How about "Future Law Organizations"? Any real 
surprises in store?>> 
 
  I'm wondering how people expect us to publish a 160 page book about 
200-point cops! <LOL> 
 
  Of OCURSE we're going to at least touch on all of these topics. After all, 
the book is called "Law & Order," not "Dukes of Hazard!" :D 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo11.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo11.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.33 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:16:01 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< Sorry, Tim, but street cops are *NOT* the heroes of the story. >> 
 
  Not in a superhero game, perhaps. But perhaps in another game they would be. 
;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 14 Apr 1998 14:18:41 -0400 
Lines: 38 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Tim R Gilberg writes: 
 
> 	And the major villians aren't either the Heroes of the story. 
 
They are the antagonists to the PC protagonists.  That puts them in the 
same category as the PCs. 
 
> Nor are minor villians or minor NPC heroes.  (Or followers, or DNPCs, or 
> . . .  you get the point). 
 
Supporting cast fits somewhere between the protagonists and antagonists 
(main cast), and everyone else (extras). 
 
> 	PC Cops in a Police Hero game would obviously earn XP, I don't 
> expect you to debate that.  However, their NPC rivals should improve and 
> mature just as they do. 
 
I disagree.  The PCs are the protagonists of the story.  NPC allies should 
rarely be as proficient as the PCs, and even more rarely be superior. 
Those that are should be relegated to positions where they cannot outshine 
the PCs. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNTOogJ6VRH7BJMxHAQFkWgP+In9zwXkbEmqD7xdZBpZatdv4ApXEmMJN 
d3cYasmsC1gDU3uERF9lC0mwOGYtDGVS4MP2Ww21ijyONA7u1yvHkm8bBqtgrd7w 
Drq9LfAqvTPtRwEu5XMzOZhlVH52TLStZw6ajRgscFeFeEgPzWZzsBvadTwmccRt 
xv3rq3K28Gk= 
=2Ip/ 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo shell.infinex.com from rook@shell.infinex.com server rook@shell.infinex.com ip 207.201.8.250 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
To: trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu (Tim R. Gilberg) 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:24:09 -0700 (PDT) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> > ...should have average stats -- straight 8-10, with maybe 1 or 2 stats at 
> > 11. The rest of his 25 points should go to skills. 
>  
> 	Yeah.  And we're talking, for the "average man", a non-college 
> educated individual.  College, as I've argued, both adds skills and 
> indicates a sense of being "above average" enough for more points. 
>  
	I'd personally say an average person is college educated, or trained in 
a profession. Besides, anyone with any real world experience can tell you 
that the average college grad knows less than the average trained mechanic in 
their relative professions. College is just to theoretical and not enough hands 
on to give any real skills beyond "KS: trivia related to desired profession, 
but not directly applicable." 
	I've seen it time and time again where a HS grad with 4 years in the 
army as an electrician can out perform a kid with a an engineering degree. 
	However the kid with the degree can talk electronic theory and 
terminology circles around the veteran. 
 
	I'd make a HS grad with no training a 0 pointer. someone who'd been 
through a trade school, or graduate degree with no work experience yet a 
skilled normal (25 pointer). 
	Then go from there. A doctorate with no work exp might also be a 25 
pointer, as the longer you stay in school, the more you loose touch with a 
few of your real world skills and knowledges. 
 
> > Most of the sample 'average' characters have stats which are too high. 
> 	Disagreed. 
>  
> > Remember:Only 2% of the population has an IQ of 130+ (INT 13-14). 1/100th 
> > of 1% has an IQ of 180+ (INT 18+). The same figures apply to physical stats 
> > as well, or should. As an example, here's my estimate of my own stats: 
>  
> 	I'd disagree on your INT estimates.  As INT is differentiated only 
 
	All stats in Hero as far as I know use the 'every 5 worth is twice as 
good.' Know I know a person with a 150 IQ is more than twice as smart as a 
person with a 100 IQ. But I don't know by how much. 
  
> > STR:8 
>  
> 	Hmmm.  How are you judging STR?  If by bench press, this may be 
> OK, may be too high.  If, however, by dead lift or some other such method, 
> you might want to up this. 
 
	I used to believe my strength was low as well. Basing it off my old 
high school estimate of me vs. the jock types. But I'd say I'm a 10 now, with 
a skill level in strength rolls for certain tasks that I got good at in the 
military. 
 
	Hero places the average at 10. So I'd use whatever X let the average 
adult do 100kg of X (or whatever close thing we can find) as the measurement. 
 
> > INT:15 (Yes, that's what I test at. Scary, ain't it?) 
> 	See above.  This would work out to a 20-23, probably, in an 
> expanded INT. 
 
	Agreed. 
  
> > AK:San Francisco, 8-, NYC,11- 
>  
> 	Well, NYC is big enough that most specific questions would come 
> with a negative modifier, so this is pretty good. 
 
	Also true with San Francisco. 
 
	Myself in the AK dept I have: 
 
San Francisco 11-, Berkeley 11-, Bay Area 8-, Silicon Valley 8- 
Seoul (SK) 8-, Suwon 8-, Songtan 12-, South Korea 8- 
 
	And some sub skills on certain districts or 'scenes' in some of those 
cities, like KS: Seoul Nightlife, both korean and expat versions. Or 
AK: Seoul tourist spots, palaces, museums, and temples 12-. :) 
 
	I was quite a traveller of Korea when I lived there, and know it better 
than I do my home city. 
 
> > PS:Writer, 11- 
>  
> 	A writing skill to go with it?  This will help you try to get 
> something published, but not write it. 
 
	KS: Writing? 
  
> > WF:Handguns 
> 
> 	Maybe a WF:Knives, WF:Thrown, or something similar you've 
> overlooked? 
 
	Here's one for you: familiarity with using a weapon group, but not 
enough to cancel out all the penelties, yet more than someone with no clue. 
 
	WF: Chinese Martial weapons (lim: only to cancel unskilled penalties 
	for either ocv or dcv, but not both? (are there penalties to both?)) 
 
	I'm tempted to show a writeup of myself... 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 14 Apr 1998 14:30:29 -0400 
Lines: 29 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Tim R Gilberg writes: 
 
> 	I'd disagree on your INT estimates.  As INT is differentiated only 
> by skill rolls, it should probably be looked at as extending easily to 30 
> for normals, considering that the age lim pushes it close to this.  This 
> allows for much more significance to INT scores.  I'd say Genius level 
> and above would have a 20+. 
 
Enh... INT is really a measure of how fast one can think, not how much one 
knows (check the BBB for its exact definition; it is *NOT* IQ).  Albert 
Einstein is my favorite example of a genius-level person with an INT of 
around 8 -- the prototypical absent-minded professer. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNTOrOJ6VRH7BJMxHAQHJbAP9F7qxGRPihYUmc039JWpJLslKARMvfk3Y 
BvlO32Wvn33XYBvP5tD+uoHvQSsQHPo/feVQGv2aqRKhCe6/WmY51yl6xKI+KA5F 
EPaIci9A1r2C3wn5OrEI+/+rRs6gHn8IdEAyrtkv4k3dK+HIXHS9mRr6bHuedRwl 
38hht+ZPb8Q= 
=l0ho 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo shell.infinex.com from rook@shell.infinex.com server rook@shell.infinex.com ip 207.201.8.250 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Body for the average man 
To: dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu (Dennis C Hwang) 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:33:02 -0700 (PDT) 
Cc: lizard@mrlizard.com, champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> As a fellow player, I hereby refrain from comment. ;) 
 
	Yeah, me too. :) Though unlike you, if he messes with Cosmo Lass 
in his game, I can give Neo trouble in mine. :) 
  
> > STR:8 
> > DEX:9 
> > CON:9 
> > INT:15 (Yes, that's what I test at. Scary, ain't it?) 
> > EGO:11/20 (+9 EGO, limit:Only via the net, -2) 
> > PRE:10/20 (+10 PRE, limit as above, -2) 
> > COM:8 
>  
> What about BODY?  BODY is actually one of the stats with which I have a 
> great deal of conceptual trouble.  In game terms, it seems analogous to, 
> essentially, Hit Points.  But what does that translate to in real life 
> (tm)?  Mass?  Will to Live?  Damage Resistance?  Physique? 
>  
> I generally end up thinking of BODY as overall mass (kind of like 
> Chaosium's SIZ attribute), but this usually leads to my characters 
> rarely buying up BODY, since I don't picture them as significantly larger 
> than average. 
 
	I think it's just a 'pain threshold, luck, shock resistance, etc.' 
sort of thing. Isn't most death a matter of shock as oppossed to actual 
ripping away of tissue needed to continue functioning? 
 
	In which case, high body could fit many people who simply have 
'the will to survive'. Conversly, many stronger, heavier types can be 
rather poor with shock. 
	After all, if body=mass, overweight people would be nigh 
unstoppable. :) 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail1.geo.net from lizard@mrlizard.com server @mail1.geo.net ip 166.90.101.11 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:42:39 -0700 
To: Dennis C Hwang <dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu> 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:43 AM 4/14/98 -0700, Dennis C Hwang wrote: 
>What about BODY?  BODY is actually one of the stats with which I have a 
>great deal of conceptual trouble.  In game terms, it seems analogous to, 
>essentially, Hit Points.  But what does that translate to in real life 
>(tm)?  Mass?  Will to Live?  Damage Resistance?  Physique? 
> 
>I generally end up thinking of BODY as overall mass (kind of like 
>Chaosium's SIZ attribute), but this usually leads to my characters 
>rarely buying up BODY, since I don't picture them as significantly larger 
>than average. 
> 
Sheesh, how did I miss that? I'd put my BODY at an even 10, as my increased 
mass balances out with my low pain threshold to about average. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo shell.infinex.com from rook@shell.infinex.com server rook@shell.infinex.com ip 207.201.8.250 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
To: lizard@mrlizard.com (Lizard) 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 11:44:24 -0700 (PDT) 
Cc: trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu, champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> >	I'd disagree on your INT estimates.  As INT is differentiated only 
> >by skill rolls, it should probably be looked at as extending easily to 30 
> >for normals, considering that the age lim pushes it close to this.  This 
> >allows for much more significance to INT scores.  I'd say Genius level and 
> >above would have a 20+. 
> > 
> If you extend stats to 30 Normal Max, sure. Otherwise, the scale is 
> compressed. 
> 
	The 'max' is not a cap so much as a point at which it costs double in 
order to reflect the rarity. 
  
> Based on the fact I'm out of shape and don't exericse, but I'm not 
> seriously hindred in day-to-day to life;I have no trouble lugging stuff 
> around, but it's more of a strain for me than for most of my peers. Or 
> maybe I just bitch more than they do. 
 
	I'll go for door number 2. :) 
 	Plus a lot of people simply don't know how to use the Str they 
	have. That's why I gave myself a skill level in it. The military 
	hammered that one down our throats, as it was a lot cheaper 
	than paying medical bills. :) 
 
> Perhaps it ought to be lower. I trip over wrinkles in the force. 
 
	Steer clear of Strawberry Ripple then. :) 
 
> Language:English, beyond fluent. (This isn't on the chart. How do you 
> represent someone with a command of the language BEYOND that of the typical 
> native speaker?) 
> 
	This is the 5 point level of a language. Unless that applies only 
to knowing all the dialects. 
  
> Most of my knowledge skills (history of comics, knowledge of RPGs, 
> knowledge of anime, computer history, quote every line from Star Wars and 
> Monty Python, etc) are subsumed under 'geek stuff'.  
 
	Trust me, he can quote all that stuff. It must have taken him years 
to learn all of it... :) 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Joe Solider on 100 points?!?!? 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 14 Apr 1998 14:54:59 -0400 
Lines: 80 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Michael Nunn writes: 
 
> Standard US Army Infantry Solider 
 
My biggest problem with this is that 1/3 wants to be Infantry, 1/3 wants to 
be a Ranger, and 1/3 wants to be discharged.  For PBI, DEX and Speed are 
too high, Body too low, and there are a lot of inappropriate skills listed. 
 
> 2	PS: Job Before Joining Military 
 
What job?  Most recruits are fresh out of high school. 
 
> 2	KS: Hobby 11- 
 
8-, and it is a freebie. 
 
> 1	Paramedic 8- 
 
Another everyman skill; another freebie. 
 
> 3	Tactics 12- 
 
Only after OCS. 
 
> 1	Computers 8- 
 
Only for a particular specialst. 
 
> 1	PERK: Top Secret Security Clearance 
 
Largely useless, so why pay points for it? 
 
> (2)	KS: Military 11- 
> (2)	KS: Military History and Customs 11- 
 
Only for OCS.  Most of what a grunt knows is subsumbed by his soldiering 
professional skill. 
 
> (1)	TF,Parachuting 
 
Infantry don't drop, Rangers drop. 
 
> (3)	Navigation 11- 
 
A specialist. 
 
> (2)	PS: Forward Observer 11- 
 
Ditto. 
 
> 5	Subject to recall 
> 10	Watched,"The US Army",more powerful,non-combat influence, 
> 	 harsh,appear 8- 
 
If discharged, the former applies; if active, the latter.  Pick one. 
 
> 15	DNPC,"spouse",normal,appear 11- 
 
Unlikely for an enlisted Infantryman. 
 
> 5	Unluck,1D6 
 
Not the kind of disadvantage I would want every soldier to have. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNTOxAZ6VRH7BJMxHAQFcXQP9FKxpE+KJsDL5DH2nGtSMWVQgwClZLx1T 
szUU40XcvlnClFTbxoUPM6Gks2fPduzmViI7vvozA9Br9TrrWrfyWxN2dZzSf5xK 
oXn+D4ihz1DTVy+lrBoen502sBN1j2f8F5pEEHc1IT6AZQ0yBnrWsNFN2WIP6NPn 
esPjIzpZUmA= 
=WbzE 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 14 Apr 1998 15:00:38 -0400 
Lines: 27 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
bobby farris writes: 
 
>         My house rules also include the idea the if the Proffesional 
> skill has another applicable skill than the player must have that skill. 
 
Pardon me, but duh.  This is not a house rule, this is common sense. 
 
I mean, a teacher needs "Professional Skill: Teacher" to be able to teach. 
But he needs a relevant skill in the subject that he is teaching in order 
to be able to teach it. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNTOyVZ6VRH7BJMxHAQFVqQQAjsrzMMKmOl5sgFul0EW9x+2W5YjhwgUf 
uwUqq6ny5t8t/Pvd9FiRA5BKL1gEYi/yBJciw1yET/L+9Q6+BiZXgUX6S+1GYxhe 
NaiYibWOuP/KatVHOiTFES98M2bsbSwpjoAOpKGEOL/D+wnV4fqsZT52e/z5TbLE 
GMYus9t9byQ= 
=RylI 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo shell.infinex.com from rook@shell.infinex.com server rook@shell.infinex.com ip 207.201.8.250 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Which published villains do you use? 
To: hartjes@ionsys.com (Chris Hartjes) 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:03:10 -0700 (PDT) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> > I'm just curious, which published villains make regular appearances in your 
> > campaigns?  I assume Viper is probably a mainstay in the majority of 
> > haven't pinned down the regulars yet, but in past campaigns Viper and Demon 
>  
> I tend to make up my own organizations and villians because often they 
> wouldn't fit into my campaign world without a lot of changes.  I tend 
> not to like organizations like Viper and Demon because it seems to me 
> that unless they always acted in secret or disguised their efforts, 
> *someone* would organize an effective resistance and destroy them. 
 
	Most the Champions villians and groups are written with a definate 
'Marvel Comics' flavor to them. If your world doesn't follow a Marvel feel, 
then it's likely they just wont fit without some tweaking. Now, about 99% of 
the Champion's games I've played in followed the Marvel feel, so in general 
this is not a major issue for most people. Just those of us who do diferent 
styles. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo jcs1.jcstate.edu from ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu server @jcs1.jcstate.edu ip 204.117.72.52 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:05:51 -0500 (EST) 
From: JASON SULLIVAN <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Test 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@sysabend.org" 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Hi.  Anyone getting this? 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo alpha2.mln.lib.ma.us from nbymail11@alpha2.mln.lib.ma.us server @alpha2.mln.lib.ma.us ip 198.112.12.11 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:08:47 -0400 
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us> 
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Average Man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
"qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote: 
 
>>> 
 
 
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:55:01 -0700, Lizard wrote: 
 
>Language:English, beyond fluent. (This isn't on the chart. How do you 
>represent someone with a command of the language BEYOND that of the typical 
>native speaker?) 
 
Easy: +1 pt. A 'native' has 4 pts in a language, but you can have 5 
pts. In a tonal language like Chinese, you could add in Perfect Pitch, 
too. 
qts 
 
<<< 
 
It would be interesting to use the +1 point to suggest a  
large vocabulary, skilled diction, and so on (as you seem to be  
suggesting), though I believe the BBB pretty specifically  
states that 5 points in a language gives you the skill to  
imitate dialects. 
 
Other possibilities for language ability include Oratory, KS:  
English Vocabulary, KS: English Grammar, and PS: Writer. I'd  
probably assume that most characters with Linguist or any  
KS's or PS's related to reading or writing have superior  
language ability as well. 
 
Now that I think about it, excellent diction could be a good  
justification (or at least part of the justification) for a  
high PRE. A high INT might include ability with language in some  
cases, but certainly not all. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo dub-img-4.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @dub-img-4.compuserve.com ip 149.174.206.134 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:11:35 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id PAA04022 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Message text written by GoldRushG 
>  "Typical" PCs in Champions are incompetent when it comes to skills. 
There is 
a fix, of course -- give them more points to buy the skills with. 
Unfortunately most players seem to be stuck on this 250 Pt limit because 
"that's what it says in the book." If you want more skills for your 
characters, give them more points. Period. 
   You could even give them an extra 25 Pts "Only for background skills" or 
some such.< 
 
I've played in campaigns where the GM allocated a certain amount of points 
"for skills only", and it worked beautifully.  Groups I've been involved 
with have always had a tendency to skimp on the skills, buying only 2 or 3 
to stop the GM from frowning at us.  By giving us points only for skills, 
he was happy that we didn't think about only combat and we were happy 
because we got more well-rounded characters.  I think this was a 250 point 
game, where 225 points were for characteristics/powers and 25 were for 
skills.  I had forgotten about this, but now that I've been reminded, I'll 
probably change my current 250 point game (which just started) to be 250 
points + 25 points for skills only. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 14 Apr 1998 15:13:28 -0400 
Lines: 30 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Dennis C Hwang writes: 
 
> Well, I think this brings up an interesting point.  Since the Hero 
> System's "Normals Max Out At 20" rule isn't really hard-and-fast (just 
> pay double), do "normals" really max out at 20? 
 
Normals do not max out at 20.  *MOST* normals max out at twenty.  "Normal 
maximum" does not mean that it is the maximum that a normal person can 
achieve, it means that it is the maximum that a person can normally 
achieve.  A perfectly normal person can put an abnormal effort into 
increasing his Strength beyond what can normally be achieved. 
 
Anyone know what the world's record for heaviest lift is? 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNTO1Vp6VRH7BJMxHAQHTIAQAjcducDH5tM3gwNKwA7AmH9w+QZ3yTfz3 
7NGgWokOyct0xpQLFUbpg14lS95rfya2tQmhmG1GEzESHrNB+SzlZJagDY756A7c 
Y3/WwtOzR24We+rEVFt9AqJEXogbZyOhMo3WMfNgTQKRBSM20UAE0/zERKIZFAdG 
dSLVEBj0PFc= 
=WAKA 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core, 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should 
                                    \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo alpha2.mln.lib.ma.us from nbymail11@alpha2.mln.lib.ma.us server @alpha2.mln.lib.ma.us ip 198.112.12.11 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:27:05 -0400 
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us> 
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Which published villains do you use? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> > I'm just curious, which published villains make regular appearances in your 
> > campaigns?  I assume Viper is probably a mainstay in the majority of 
> > haven't pinned down the regulars yet, but in past campaigns Viper and Demon 
 
I'm another in the "none" camp.  
 
They don't match my style, and I prefer to create distinctive  
worlds from scratch anyway. If I'm going to put the trouble into  
running a campaign world, I want the world to be mine (and my  
players', of course) through and through. 
 
It's unfortunate for me that my tastes in these matters run  
exactly counter to Hero's marketing philosophies. I wouldn't mind  
having a self-contained published adventure module now and then  
for a one-shot break from my own work, and I appreciate genre  
or period support materials, but I'm not much interested in  
published characters or organizations. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo saturn.nildram.co.uk from qts@nildram.co.uk server @saturn.nildram.co.uk ip 195.112.4.22 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com&> 
        "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 98 19:28:24  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: I need a name (oh no, not again! :) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:20:10 -0500, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA 
wrote: 
 
>Made a character. She has plasma based powers. 
>EB, FF, Flight. Don't want a cliche name like Nova 
>or Plasma Girl. Any ideas from the peanut gallery? 
 
How about Sunday? 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo dub-img-6.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @dub-img-6.compuserve.com ip 149.174.206.136 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:40:37 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id PAA04976 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Message text written by Brian Wong 
>       I've seen it time and time again where a HS grad with 4 years in 
the 
army as an electrician can out perform a kid with a an engineering degree. 
        However the kid with the degree can talk electronic theory and 
terminology circles around the veteran.< 
 
This is off-topic, but it struck a chord.... 
 
I'd agree here, but I think the severity of it varies by field.  For 
instance, I have a BS in Computer Science.  I think the first two years 
were extremely valuable, but the last two (especially the senior level 
classes) were fairly worthless in practical terms...they delve too much 
into the "theory of the science" and aren't much use outside of academic 
circles. 
 
On the other hand, I have a minor in English.  From my experience, the vast 
majority of the cirriculum is worthless from a job skill point of view.  
They spend far too much time having you read the "classics" and far too 
little time teaching you how to write.  It's funny, because most of the 
writing that you do is non-fiction (essays, research papers, etc), but most 
of the writing you study is fiction (Shakespeare, etc).  There is almost 
zero effort placed on teaching you how to write in the style that 
academians hold so high.  My experience was that an English degree teaches 
you how to analyze writing, not how to write such material yourself (one 
does not beget the other). 
 
I guess I should say that my experience is with Louisiana State University, 
and my comments may or may not be valid with other schools. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo saturn.nildram.co.uk from qts@nildram.co.uk server @saturn.nildram.co.uk ip 195.112.4.22 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Lizard" <lizard@mrlizard.com&> "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 98 19:43:13  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:55:01 -0700, Lizard wrote: 
 
>Language:English, beyond fluent. (This isn't on the chart. How do you 
>represent someone with a command of the language BEYOND that of the typical 
>native speaker?) 
 
Easy: +1 pt. A 'native' has 4 pts in a language, but you can have 5 
pts. In a tonal language like Chinese, you could add in Perfect Pitch, 
too. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo eagle-140.raptor.com from jcalvaneso@raptor.com server @eagle1a.raptor.com ip 209.48.140.11 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:48:01 -0400 
From: Justin Calvaneso <jcalvaneso@raptor.com> 
Organization: Raptor Systems 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Which published villains do you use? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Brian Wong wrote: 
 
>         Most the Champions villians and groups are written with a definate 
> 'Marvel Comics' flavor to them. If your world doesn't follow a Marvel feel, 
> then it's likely they just wont fit without some tweaking. Now, about 99% of 
> the Champion's games I've played in followed the Marvel feel, so in general 
> this is not a major issue for most people. Just those of us who do diferent 
> styles. 
 
    Define 'Marvel flavor'. I'm curious. 
 
--- 
Justin Calvaneso                  Raptor Systems, Inc. 
Test Lab Technician               a division of Axent Technologies 
jcalvaneso@raptor.com             266 Second Avenue 
(781) 530-2362                    Waltham, MA 02154 
--- 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo saturn.nildram.co.uk from qts@nildram.co.uk server @saturn.nildram.co.uk ip 195.112.4.22 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Chris Lynch" <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 98 19:48:07  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Gadget Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:36:48 +0100, Chris Lynch wrote: 
 
>qts wrote: 
> 
>> On Mon, 13 Apr 1998 00:18:00 -0400 (EDT), Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>> 
>> >How would people write up a line gun?  For firing of climbing lines, not 
>> >swing lines. 
>> > 
>> >Would one use Swinging? 
>> >Stretching? 
>> >I know that Ninja Hero talks about using Entangle, but I seems a bit odd 
>> >to create a climbing line with that exact power. 
>> 
>> How about Stretching or Flight? I'd go for the former, having used it 
>> for magic grappling hooks. 
>> qts 
>> 
>> Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
> 
>  Flight works well for the Batman style of line (or the Spiderman - I can't 
>believe that this guy is getting overlooking in the swinging line stakes!) 
>with limitations such as "Only in urban environment" or "Requires purchase". 
>The urban one is about -1/2 (if you take him out into the desert he's in 
>trouble) but the "purchase" thing is only really worth about -1/4 as players 
>will always find something to attach a line to... 
 
Especially enemies - hence my use of Stretching - effectively allowing 
a HKA at range. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hil-img-9.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @hil-img-9.compuserve.com ip 149.174.177.139 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:52:04 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Joe Solider on 100 points?!?!? 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id PAA05149 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Message text written by Stainless Steel Rat 
>Infantry don't drop, Rangers drop.< 
 
Uh, my dad was in the 82nd and 101st Airborn Infantry and I'm fairly 
certain he wasn't a Ranger. 
 
> > 15  DNPC,"spouse",normal,appear 11-< 
 
Unlikely for an enlisted Infantryman.< 
 
Huh?  What do you base that on?  From my recollection of living in military 
housing on several military bases, they are just as likely to be married as 
anyone else. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail.ucsf.edu from dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu server @mail.ucsf.EDU ip 128.218.95.23 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:55:47 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Dennis C Hwang <dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu> 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On 14 Apr 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> Dennis C Hwang writes: 
>  
> > Well, I think this brings up an interesting point.  Since the Hero 
> > System's "Normals Max Out At 20" rule isn't really hard-and-fast (just 
> > pay double), do "normals" really max out at 20? 
>  
> Normals do not max out at 20.  *MOST* normals max out at twenty.  "Normal 
> maximum" does not mean that it is the maximum that a normal person can 
> achieve, it means that it is the maximum that a person can normally 
> achieve.  A perfectly normal person can put an abnormal effort into 
> increasing his Strength beyond what can normally be achieved. 
 
Well, I guess my main question was essentially:  how common are stat 
scores >20 in the "normal" population? 
 
> Anyone know what the world's record for heaviest lift is? 
 
What kind of lift?  For that matter, what kind of lift is being assumed in 
the STR chart? 
 
I've assumed a sort of dead-lift/whole-body lift for the STR chart, since 
a 100-kg (220-lb) bench press would be way above "average"... 
 
--Dennis 
************************************************************* 
*   dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu   *   xenopathologist at large!   * 
************************************************************* 
*   So...you're keeping me alive because you don't know     * 
*   DOS.                                                    * 
*                                                           * 
*                       --Izzy to Gabriel                   * 
*                         THE PROPHECY II                   * 
************************************************************* 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo shell.infinex.com from rook@shell.infinex.com server rook@shell.infinex.com ip 207.201.8.250 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Hero Wish List (Was Which published villains do you use?) 
To: NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us (BILL SVITAVSKY) 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 12:59:30 -0700 (PDT) 
Cc: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> It's unfortunate for me that my tastes in these matters run  
> exactly counter to Hero's marketing philosophies. I wouldn't mind  
> having a self-contained published adventure module now and then  
> for a one-shot break from my own work, and I appreciate genre  
> or period support materials, but I'm not much interested in  
> published characters or organizations. 
 
	I agree here. Here's what my dream come true of Hero Products would be: 
 
1. Cardboard miniatures, blanks, siloettes (sp wrong, I failed my Int check), 
	and fully drawn and colored of all sorts. 
 
2. Genre books (Fantasy Hero, Space Hero, Super Hero) 
 
3. Sub genre books (like Golden Age heroes, Lands of Mystery, Dark Champions) 
 
4. Champions Plus. Rules expansions, optional rules, and popular house rules 
	put this one out on a one volume a year basis or something. 
	Collect rules from people's house games and present them for 
	everyone's perusal. 
 
5. Gm and Players screens, now of course, the players screen need not be a 
	stand up, but just a few pages of quick ref stuff. 
 
6. A whole book of siloettes (failed that Int roll again. :) ) for my less 
	art inclined players. 
 
7. quicky scenerio books, showing how to take a basic thread and expand it 
	into an advneture, rather than the full adventure. Example of this 
	would be Challenges for Champions done even better. (I think, just 
	bought it, haven't read it yet.) 
 
8. WorldBooks, Licenced lines. Marvel Hero, Conan Fantasy Hero, Expanding 
	Western Shores out to a full worldbook. San Angelo, etc... 
 
9. Villian and Hero collections. Enemies and Allies books. Though I disliked 
	allies as it lacked enough solo's and had too many teams for my tastes. 
	I would want these to be single quick NPC's I could toss in on a rainy 
	day. Or scavenge for parts, more or less, when building my own NPC's. 
 
	That's more or less in order. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2 
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net&> 
        Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Joe Solider on 100 points?!?!? 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:00:57 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
To correct a number of false assertions... 
 
A rather significant percentage of soldiers do not come straight out of high 
school.  Even those that do, often have jobs in high school.  And this is a 
standard soldier - not a recruit. 
 
Infantry are trained in basic tactics in basic/AIT, with more training as 
you ascend in rank, both through schools and OJT. 
 
Infantry do learn about the military and its history and its customs, 
particularly if they want to pass any promotion boards.  In fact, the most 
unit museums are taken care of by enlisted personnel. 
 
Rangers are in the *minority* of airborne troopers.  The 82nd Airborne 
Division and the rest of the XVIIIth Airborne Corps is a prime example. 
 
All US Army soldiers are taught to navigate, infantry even more so. 
 
If a soldier is a member of a rapid response unit (like the entire XVIIIth 
Airborne Corps) then Recall is appropriate to active duty since by SOP you 
are expected to be back at your unit HQ within 2 hours, even if on vacation. 
 
If you are on active duty, the US Army certainly comes up more than 8- IRL. 
 
A great many enlisted are married.  some E-1s come in married and I'd 
venture that at least 50% of E-5 and above are married. 
 
 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From:	Stainless Steel Rat [SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net] 
> Sent:	Tuesday, April 14, 1998 2:55 PM 
> To:	Champions 
> Subject:	Re: Joe Solider on 100 points?!?!? 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> Michael Nunn writes: 
>  
> > Standard US Army Infantry Solider 
>  
> My biggest problem with this is that 1/3 wants to be Infantry, 1/3 wants 
> to 
> be a Ranger, and 1/3 wants to be discharged.  For PBI, DEX and Speed are 
> too high, Body too low, and there are a lot of inappropriate skills 
> listed. 
>  
> > 2	PS: Job Before Joining Military 
>  
> What job?  Most recruits are fresh out of high school. 
>  
> > 2	KS: Hobby 11- 
>  
> 8-, and it is a freebie. 
>  
> > 1	Paramedic 8- 
>  
> Another everyman skill; another freebie. 
>  
> > 3	Tactics 12- 
>  
> Only after OCS. 
>  
> > 1	Computers 8- 
>  
> Only for a particular specialst. 
>  
> > 1	PERK: Top Secret Security Clearance 
>  
> Largely useless, so why pay points for it? 
>  
> > (2)	KS: Military 11- 
> > (2)	KS: Military History and Customs 11- 
>  
> Only for OCS.  Most of what a grunt knows is subsumbed by his soldiering 
> professional skill. 
>  
> > (1)	TF,Parachuting 
>  
> Infantry don't drop, Rangers drop. 
>  
> > (3)	Navigation 11- 
>  
> A specialist. 
>  
> > (2)	PS: Forward Observer 11- 
>  
> Ditto. 
>  
> > 5	Subject to recall 
> > 10	Watched,"The US Army",more powerful,non-combat influence, 
> > 	 harsh,appear 8- 
>  
> If discharged, the former applies; if active, the latter.  Pick one. 
>  
> > 15	DNPC,"spouse",normal,appear 11- 
>  
> Unlikely for an enlisted Infantryman. 
>  
> > 5	Unluck,1D6 
>  
> Not the kind of disadvantage I would want every soldier to have. 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
> Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
> Charset: noconv 
>  
> iQCVAwUBNTOxAZ6VRH7BJMxHAQFcXQP9FKxpE+KJsDL5DH2nGtSMWVQgwClZLx1T 
> szUU40XcvlnClFTbxoUPM6Gks2fPduzmViI7vvozA9Br9TrrWrfyWxN2dZzSf5xK 
> oXn+D4ihz1DTVy+lrBoen502sBN1j2f8F5pEEHc1IT6AZQ0yBnrWsNFN2WIP6NPn 
> esPjIzpZUmA= 
> =WbzE 
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
> --  
> Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, 
> and 
> PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid 
> prolonged 
>                                     \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 14 Apr 1998 16:02:58 -0400 
Lines: 29 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Dennis C Hwang writes: 
 
> Well, I guess my main question was essentially:  how common are stat 
> scores >20 in the "normal" population? 
 
Uncommon at best.  You will not find a statistically relelvant segment of 
the population with any >normal maximum characteristics because exceeding 
normal maxima requires exceptional effort.  These few people are generally 
not going to be a significant part of any demographic survey, what as they 
are busy doing things like training for the next Olympiad or other 
world-class meet (or are busy concealing their heroic identities from an 
unsuspecting world). 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNTPA8Z6VRH7BJMxHAQGpkwP+NcQazoQOqNOHcgoH+FuJestO8BFNp1AE 
VW9WoPGynOt5LqXmmg8ppYNkbpDQphX/zIYWY9euw4GAM4oGnwlmTNMU27T0My1z 
M8mdLwkV7fQgkmS07ItVD2+WCYxy8lorjpkBAPlhHHarXLaBQy31H5YIdiB8TApo 
fHHRUkcbPNs= 
=X08m 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2 
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net&> 
        Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Proffesional Skills x2 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:03:29 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Actually, a teacher who is any good would also have a skill in teaching. 
 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From:	Stainless Steel Rat [SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net] 
> Sent:	Tuesday, April 14, 1998 3:01 PM 
> To:	Champions 
> Subject:	Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> bobby farris writes: 
>  
> >         My house rules also include the idea the if the Proffesional 
> > skill has another applicable skill than the player must have that skill. 
>  
> Pardon me, but duh.  This is not a house rule, this is common sense. 
>  
> I mean, a teacher needs "Professional Skill: Teacher" to be able to teach. 
> But he needs a relevant skill in the subject that he is teaching in order 
> to be able to teach it. 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
> Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
> Charset: noconv 
>  
> iQCVAwUBNTOyVZ6VRH7BJMxHAQFVqQQAjsrzMMKmOl5sgFul0EW9x+2W5YjhwgUf 
> uwUqq6ny5t8t/Pvd9FiRA5BKL1gEYi/yBJciw1yET/L+9Q6+BiZXgUX6S+1GYxhe 
> NaiYibWOuP/KatVHOiTFES98M2bsbSwpjoAOpKGEOL/D+wnV4fqsZT52e/z5TbLE 
> GMYus9t9byQ= 
> =RylI 
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
> --  
> Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain 
> types 
> PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
>                                     \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:10:23 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> << That is XP, isn't it? Just plain experience in the field? >> 
> 
>   No. It is years on the department. In our department one can work in any 
> number of different divisions: Corrections, Investigative Services, Court 
> Security, Administration, Patrol Services, etc. Just having years on does not 
> give one more patrol experience necessarily. 
 
	Ah.  I see your point.  Still, even the "minor" jobs while not on 
patrol would earn some XP, though much of it would be "earmarked". 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:22:14 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions Listserv <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Body for the average man 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> 	In which case, high body could fit many people who simply have 
> 'the will to survive'. Conversly, many stronger, heavier types can be 
> rather poor with shock. 
> 	After all, if body=mass, overweight people would be nigh 
> unstoppable. :) 
 
	I've always seen it as a mix of the mentioned factors.  Someone a 
bit bigger than normal (like me) will have a bit more bod than normal. 
Someone with a higher will to live than normal will have a bit more bod 
than normal.  Someone better trained to take damage than normal will have 
a bit higher bod than normal.  Someone with all of the above will have an 
aweful lot. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2 
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:22:50 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
We do something similar this, in that we require the character to have a 
minimum number of non-combat skills and a minimum level in each.  It works 
pretty well. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From:	David B Stallard [SMTP:DBStallard@compuserve.com] 
> Sent:	Tuesday, April 14, 1998 3:12 PM 
> To:	Goode, Jason 
> Cc:	[unknown] 
> Subject:	Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
>  
> Message text written by GoldRushG 
> >  "Typical" PCs in Champions are incompetent when it comes to skills. 
> There is 
> a fix, of course -- give them more points to buy the skills with. 
> Unfortunately most players seem to be stuck on this 250 Pt limit because 
> "that's what it says in the book." If you want more skills for your 
> characters, give them more points. Period. 
>    You could even give them an extra 25 Pts "Only for background skills" 
> or 
> some such.< 
>  
> I've played in campaigns where the GM allocated a certain amount of points 
> "for skills only", and it worked beautifully.  Groups I've been involved 
> with have always had a tendency to skimp on the skills, buying only 2 or 3 
> to stop the GM from frowning at us.  By giving us points only for skills, 
> he was happy that we didn't think about only combat and we were happy 
> because we got more well-rounded characters.  I think this was a 250 point 
> game, where 225 points were for characteristics/powers and 25 were for 
> skills.  I had forgotten about this, but now that I've been reminded, I'll 
> probably change my current 250 point game (which just started) to be 250 
> points + 25 points for skills only. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Joe Solider on 100 points?!?!? 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 14 Apr 1998 16:24:16 -0400 
Lines: 38 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
David B Stallard writes: 
 
> Message text written by Stainless Steel Rat 
 
>> Infantry don't drop, Rangers drop.< 
> Uh, my dad was in the 82nd and 101st Airborn Infantry and I'm fairly 
> certain he wasn't a Ranger. 
 
Airborne Infantry != Infantry.  Rangers are "elite" Airborne Infantry. 
 
>> > 15  DNPC,"spouse",normal,appear 11-< 
> Unlikely for an enlisted Infantryman.< 
> Huh?  What do you base that on? 
 
On the fact that Joe Soldier is fresh out of high school. 
 
> From my recollection of living in military housing on several military 
> bases, they are just as likely to be married as anyone else. 
 
Yeah, officers and career enslited, not Joe Soldier doing his basic tour of 
duty. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNTPF7p6VRH7BJMxHAQHOVQP8CsH8ATdTVHLrYnDUPFFI+/LTIOXK0A3y 
x5iogzLiu9Zo6i1oqFthYL/HBodmDkE/HGUqh7bYFbUsRgCOOtnpgJr7KV+O3vyi 
3o/CObh1oB6O8SdVr6rHNBFrvZ+cfLt4Pb3gb3DhIJl5dpeV48SRR/W0rFNvwFOS 
Kzb63oAmHtU= 
=Ef/t 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:25:28 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> > 	And the major villians aren't either the Heroes of the story. 
> 
> They are the antagonists to the PC protagonists.  That puts them in the 
> same category as the PCs. 
 
	And supporting characters would be in the same scenarios.  They'll 
develop as the players do to provide a fluid world.  I don't much like the 
sound of your cardboard silouette of a world. 
 
> > 	PC Cops in a Police Hero game would obviously earn XP, I don't 
> > expect you to debate that.  However, their NPC rivals should improve and 
> > mature just as they do. 
> 
> I disagree.  The PCs are the protagonists of the story.  NPC allies should 
> rarely be as proficient as the PCs, and even more rarely be superior. 
> Those that are should be relegated to positions where they cannot outshine 
> the PCs. 
 
	Um.  I was talking about NPC rivals, which almost certainly _will_ 
exist.  That FBI Local Investigator will continually be competing for 
cases.  That Street Pounder who wants to do more will keep trying to get 
in on the action.  As the players improve, they will too in order to keep 
at a similar level of challenge.  If they remained static, any type of 
rivalry would quickly become moot. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:28:29 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> Enh... INT is really a measure of how fast one can think, not how much one 
> knows (check the BBB for its exact definition; it is *NOT* IQ).  Albert 
> Einstein is my favorite example of a genius-level person with an INT of 
> around 8 -- the prototypical absent-minded professer. 
 
	Um.  No.  Much of IQ _is_ how fast you can think.  Some is what 
you know, but it often goes together.  Einstein would recieve a Phys Lim: 
Absent Minded and, perhaps, a Phys Lim: Not very perceptive. 
 
	He was quite fast at thinking about very difficult subjects, 
something that went beyond a mere recitation of knowledge.  He came up 
with a huge amount of ideas, being able to work his mind quickly through 
thinks most would fall apart on. 
 
	Give him a 30, maybe more, even if an IQ test showed up as low. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Joe Solider on 100 points?!?!? 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 14 Apr 1998 16:29:54 -0400 
Lines: 59 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Goode, Jason writes: 
 
> A rather significant percentage of soldiers do not come straight out of 
> high school.  Even those that do, often have jobs in high school.  And 
> this is a standard soldier - not a recruit. 
 
"Joe Soldier" is fresh out of basic and specialist training. 
 
> Infantry are trained in basic tactics in basic/AIT, with more training as 
> you ascend in rank, both through schools and OJT. 
 
8- like I said. 
 
> Infantry do learn about the military and its history and its customs, 
> particularly if they want to pass any promotion boards.  In fact, the 
> most unit museums are taken care of by enlisted personnel. 
 
Not something that "Joe Soldier" will be particularly concerned about. 
 
> Rangers are in the *minority* of airborne troopers.  The 82nd Airborne 
> Division and the rest of the XVIIIth Airborne Corps is a prime example. 
 
Airborne Infantry units are separate from Infantry units. 
 
> All US Army soldiers are taught to navigate, infantry even more so. 
 
Orienteering 8-, as specified.  Or Navigation 8-, take your pick (they are 
the same skil as far as game mechanics go). 
 
> If a soldier is a member of a rapid response unit (like the entire 
> XVIIIth Airborne Corps) 
 
This is not "Joe Soldier". 
 
> If you are on active duty, the US Army certainly comes up more than 8- IRL. 
 
But when on active duty you are not "subject to recall (reactivation)". 
 
> A great many enlisted are married.  some E-1s come in married and I'd 
> venture that at least 50% of E-5 and above are married. 
 
E-5 is not "Joe Soldier", the military is his career. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNTPHP56VRH7BJMxHAQFU7QP/YCIf1rOcApUEws7ZqLPvzuSjgEBusNOg 
XYK7QKXjgH2Pmh2jSjhJBr2Nq+6aDFSk49qngfoHENVM9xZ9Cq4GzTwa1I74NC8q 
a3jR2lWV3jQSzp2RVIkIIFSqd4ZzKTZbsPR7KHN+Yh4XofDVFZ09vt5g2nbA5iwK 
6TF1bI19JTQ= 
=ZA6z 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 14 Apr 1998 16:30:57 -0400 
Lines: 25 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Goode, Jason writes: 
 
> Actually, a teacher who is any good would also have a skill in teaching. 
 
Methinks Jason missed where I pointed out that: 
 
>> I mean, a teacher needs "Professional Skill: Teacher" to be able to 
>> teach. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNTPHfZ6VRH7BJMxHAQEdjQP9En2DmuCUwB2bOROfh5uH2R8nK3anMiO0 
OBc+4BzQBGV7AvOFNxJvfBURU3S8M8WL6YDTWGuOorApykeb7UDoQzyEp2k+yda+ 
FLIMfno1c10h7r1UW1UwaElVyKA3P6JF8AWA21WOpUw6mKV5fFiQNWa2U6xGp8e9 
idV9Ava6wmU= 
=bQyX 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:37:00 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> I'd agree here, but I think the severity of it varies by field.  For 
> instance, I have a BS in Computer Science.  I think the first two years 
> were extremely valuable, but the last two (especially the senior level 
> classes) were fairly worthless in practical terms...they delve too much 
> into the "theory of the science" and aren't much use outside of academic 
> circles. 
 
	And to those inventing the new ways a field or industry will move. 
The practical is great for doing what is out there.  The theoretical 
allows you to change what is needed "out there". 
 
> On the other hand, I have a minor in English.  From my experience, the vast 
> majority of the cirriculum is worthless from a job skill point of view. 
> They spend far too much time having you read the "classics" and far too 
> little time teaching you how to write.  It's funny, because most of the 
 
	Um.  And? 
 
	That _is_ what an English Degree is defined as.  (I get mine in a 
month.)  The knowledge of the classics is the degree.  Writing is a 
secondary skill for an English Lit degree. 
 
	However, you've gotten enough experience in writing to be hugely 
valuable in a writing field.  A strong background in research, study, and 
analysis makes a great foundation for going into law school . . . or many 
other fields. 
 
> writing that you do is non-fiction (essays, research papers, etc), but most 
> of the writing you study is fiction (Shakespeare, etc).  There is almost 
> zero effort placed on teaching you how to write in the style that 
> academians hold so high.  My experience was that an English degree teaches 
> you how to analyze writing, not how to write such material yourself (one 
> does not beget the other). 
 
	Your last statement is so obvious as to be worthless.  Actually, 
Illinois College offers two English degrees -- Lit and Writing.  Both need 
both fields, but the former's main concentration is on reading and 
analysing literature.  The latter on writing of various forms, usually 
creative.  This includes Drama, Poetry, Short Stories, Rhetorical Writing, 
Journalistic Writing, etc. 
 
	For the record, I'm getting a Lit degree.  It has already earned 
my an appointment to the Masters Program in English Lit at the University 
of Oklahoma with a Teaching Assistantship.  That's exactly what I needed 
the degree to do. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:39:47 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Proffesional Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> Actually, a teacher who is any good would also have a skill in teaching. 
 
	Right.  Add the PS: Teacher for the beaurocratic side, a skill in 
the main and possibly minor subject. 
 
	Add a skill: Teaching based on PRE, similar to Oratory or 
Persuasion or Conversation. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 14 Apr 1998 16:41:15 -0400 
Lines: 24 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Tim R Gilberg writes: 
 
> 	And supporting characters would be in the same scenarios.  They'll 
> develop as the players do to provide a fluid world.  I don't much like the 
> sound of your cardboard silouette of a world. 
 
We aren't talking about the world, we are talking about a game. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNTPJ6Z6VRH7BJMxHAQGxFwQAuSfW2uPz3HPVlebm0edXlaEweUzkQn6W 
Arj28IUksKpLjdnBLf2Cvgx3ElWNnEdV8mGKOmmzsGu9ddutdxScHDK9SaPNVbwY 
5lbKRVZghQJOm2MGXi0xl7sALxIErCLhqTvK0HNC/7q4Dl7rzxLPykpXV+WQBAu1 
ioj4lSXnr0w= 
=juN3 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged 
                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 14 Apr 1998 16:42:23 -0400 
Lines: 23 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Tim R Gilberg writes: 
 
> 	Um.  No.  Much of IQ _is_ how fast you can think.  Some is what 
> you know, but it often goes together. 
 
You might want to check your BBB on this one, Tim, becuse it says otherwise. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNTPKLp6VRH7BJMxHAQHaVAQAh8Q8AussE/PECvzO23Z+rTINgH/2uzsq 
kVPB9BWQTb5Gzk+G1Tb2FX2opA7ZgWWdgozPyb3EBIeA0/2AEtNblb4/xDBmYMKB 
+wnasRkYtf42QwWE1SGXWsu4Wzjva+qsJwO7XabSat1P8kDVzYH1vYtUbK0TK64w 
V3uUOKbT0ew= 
=lqAG 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:48:22 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> 	I'd personally say an average person is college educated, or trained in 
> a profession. 
 
	Um.  Based on my knowledge of what those I went to high school 
with are up to, I'd have to disagree.  The average man don't know much, 
except perhaps how to stock the local Jewel/Osco or work the machinery at 
the plant or wait tables. 
 
> Besides, anyone with any real world experience can tell you 
> that the average college grad knows less than the average trained mechanic in 
> their relative professions. 
 
	That mechanic is another trained professional.  And even he is 
having problems with the newer cars -- they are being covered in the auto 
mechanic schools. 
 
	And considering that most college grads go on to fields not 
related to their degrees (directly related), I'd say you're pretty much 
on. 
 
> College is just to theoretical and not enough hands 
> on to give any real skills beyond "KS: trivia related to desired profession, 
> but not directly applicable." 
 
	Um, I'd disagree.  I'd say College would give one at least one 11- 
skill, possibly higher depending on how good the student was, at least one 
foreign language, and a collection of 8- KSs, most quickly being 
forgotten, but there to "be remembered" when XP is needed to be spent. 
 
> 	I've seen it time and time again where a HS grad with 4 years in the 
> army as an electrician can out perform a kid with a an engineering degree. 
> 	However the kid with the degree can talk electronic theory and 
> terminology circles around the veteran. 
 
	Yup.  But those coming out with the great degrees will end up 
defining what the future will hold.  Maybe.  Or they get into the real 
world, keep the theoretical part where it is, and get useful. 
 
> 	I'd make a HS grad with no training a 0 pointer. someone who'd been 
> through a trade school, or graduate degree with no work experience yet a 
> skilled normal (25 pointer). 
 
	Graduate degree?  That'd be a bit higher. 
 
> 	Then go from there. A doctorate with no work exp might also be a 25 
> pointer, as the longer you stay in school, the more you loose touch with a 
> few of your real world skills and knowledges. 
 
	Not really.  You usually have to work your summers, giving all 
sorts of possible PSs and KSs, mostly at the 8- level. 
 
> 	All stats in Hero as far as I know use the 'every 5 worth is twice as 
> good.' Know I know a person with a 150 IQ is more than twice as smart as a 
> person with a 100 IQ. But I don't know by how much. 
 
	Hmmm.  I'm not sure if INT would be the same or not.  Seems kinda 
likely. 
 
 
> 	I used to believe my strength was low as well. Basing it off my old 
> high school estimate of me vs. the jock types. But I'd say I'm a 10 now, with 
> a skill level in strength rolls for certain tasks that I got good at in the 
> military. 
> 
> 	Hero places the average at 10. So I'd use whatever X let the average 
> adult do 100kg of X (or whatever close thing we can find) as the measurement. 
 
	I'd place myself at 12 or 13 based on being able to lift more than 
average, but not a whole lot more.  Much is based on my size. 
 
> 	And some sub skills on certain districts or 'scenes' in some of those 
> cities, like KS: Seoul Nightlife, both korean and expat versions. Or 
> AK: Seoul tourist spots, palaces, museums, and temples 12-. :) 
 
	Adds up, don't it? 
 
> > 	A writing skill to go with it?  This will help you try to get 
> > something published, but not write it. 
> 
> 	KS: Writing? 
 
	Nah.  With that you could teach it.  Call it a new skill: Writing. 
I'm not sure if it should just be 11- or be based on INT or PRE. 
 
> 	Here's one for you: familiarity with using a weapon group, but not 
> enough to cancel out all the penelties, yet more than someone with no clue. 
 
	Just buy a +1 OCV, only to partially remove the -2 unfamiliar 
weapon penalty. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2 
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:48:45 -0500 
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>> PS:Writer, 11- 
> 
>	A writing skill to go with it?  This will help you try to get 
>something published, but not write it. 
 
Apologies in advance for the rudeness to follow, but... 
 
You are out of your tiny little mind.  Writing is EXACTLY what PS: Writing 
will help a person do.  Any Professional Skill "gives the character the 
ability to perform a certain profession."  I'd have thought a person with 
your better-than-average memory would have recalled that description.  Why 
are you so eager to create new Skills when the system has two generic Skill 
groups (KS and PS) that were specifically designed to cover all this 
stuff...Football(DEX-based), and now Writing(?-based).   
 
If you want more than the ordinary ability to sell a writen work, PS: 
Literary Agent might be one way to go. PS: Editor or KS: Publishing Houses 
(so you know what they're looking for) would not hurt, and high EGO and PRE 
are also helpful when you meet with agents, editors, publishers and other 
potential industry contacts.  Complementary Skills might, under some 
circumstances, include Persuasion, Trading and Bureaucratics (as applicable 
to the publishing industry, and if you don't think that's a bureaucracy, 
you've never dealt with it).  All of the above is strictly optional; PS: 
Writer is all you need.  If you want a better than 11- chance of making a 
sale (because there *will* be negative modifiers in the current market), 
spend a few extra points and improve your base roll. 
 
Unlike some of you who speak from personal experience in such fields as 
Food Service, I should admit at this point I am not a writer.  My wife of 
11 years is, however.  She has written over 20 books (only 9 published so 
far; the rest are making the rounds of publishers), plus a number of short 
stories, some of which have appeared in The Dragon, Realms of Fantasy, 
Isaac Asimov's SF Magazine, etc.  She's been nominated for an Edgar Award 
for Best Juvenile Mystery.  Well, this is beside the point. 
 
Bottom line: you appear in many cases to be tossing aside the basic 
function of the Professional Skill, reducing it at best to the status of a 
complementary roll for some new Skill you create off-hand.  
 
Time to create that kill file at last (though there will be one person 
ahead of you in that list). 
 
Damon 
---------------------------------------------- 
 
"Ah!  Arrogance and stupidity in one package. 
 How efficient of you."  -- Londo Molari 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:49:53 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Which published villains do you use? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> I'm just curious, which published villains make regular appearances in your 
> campaigns?  I assume Viper is probably a mainstay in the majority of 
> campaigns, but how about groups like Zodiac or solo villains like Dark 
> Seraph (just to throw out some names)?  My campaign has just started so I 
> haven't pinned down the regulars yet, but in past campaigns Viper and Demon 
> were the two most regularly featured villain organizations, and Terror, 
> Inc. was also a big player. 
 
	Well, I'm always up to pull Viper in.  At least a minor incident 
every other game.  Genocide is being saved with only hints at what they 
are up to, same for Demon.  Terror, Inc is nice for a lighter villian 
group.  I've also gotten some use from the Crusher Gang and Grab. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:58:49 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> >	I'd disagree on your INT estimates.  As INT is differentiated only 
> >by skill rolls, it should probably be looked at as extending easily to 30 
> >for normals, considering that the age lim pushes it close to this.  This 
> >allows for much more significance to INT scores.  I'd say Genius level and 
> >above would have a 20+. 
> > 
> If you extend stats to 30 Normal Max, sure. Otherwise, the scale is 
> compressed. 
 
	As others have pointed out, it's not the max.  As so few do have a 
130+ IQ, we could expect some extra expenditure.  This is not your average 
maximums.  Otherwise, what's the difference between a 13- and a 17-? 
 
> Based on the fact I'm out of shape and don't exericse, but I'm not 
> seriously hindred in day-to-day to life;I have no trouble lugging stuff 
> around, but it's more of a strain for me than for most of my peers. Or 
> maybe I just bitch more than they do. 
 
	Hmmm.  Based on an OK press and a really good squat and leg lift, 
I'd give myself a 12 or 13. 
 
> >	You're a little less skilled than average? 
> > 
> Perhaps it ought to be lower. I trip over wrinkles in the force. 
 
	Um, yeah. 
 
> >> COM:8 
> > 
> >	Sure. 
> > 
> Gee, thanks. 
 
	I'm not gonna argue on a stat you're willing to judge at 
(hopefully) a realistic level.  I'd hate to think that this is an inflated 
stat. 
 
> >	This would qualify, to me, as a "useless skill" that won't cost 
> >you any points. 
> > 
> Fair enough, but it ought to be listed. 
 
	Sure.  I'm working on a "Useless Skills" proposal right now. 
 
	This would allow the inclusion of some minor skills on the sheet 
that wouldn't cost anything -- they're there for flavor. 
 
	I'm also working on an "Inactive Skills" proposal.  These are 
skills a character once had at whatever level, but have fallen out of 
practice.  They can be quickly re-picked up taking away a need for 
training time when spending XP. 
 
 
> >	Fine.  Where's the Computer Programing skill to go with it. 
> > 
> Computer Programming, 13-. 
 
	OK. 
 
	Though I'd require a language skill for the various languages. 
Most "good" programmers would have no more than 1 or 2 points in these, 
however.  I'd give myself a 8- Computer Programming skill and 1 pt in 
Pascal, COBOL, C, and Intel Assembler. 
 
> There is no specific 'writing' skill, so what do you suggest? I'd say my 
> writing ability is 11-, my knowledge of being a professional writer is a 
> Familiarity, 8-. 
 
	Make a new skill.  It's provided for in the book.  Just decide if 
it should be based on a stat like INT or PRE or just be 11-. 
 
> >	Maybe a WF:Knives, WF:Thrown, or something similar you've 
> >overlooked? 
> > 
> No training in any of those. I do have handgun training and experience. 
 
	Ah.  I'd have an "inactive skill" WF with .22s and the M-16 based 
on some earlier training.  I'd currently have a WF with Flying Discs 
(Frisbees) 
 
> History, 8- 
> General Science 8- 
> Philosophy, 8- 
 
	All KSs. 
 
> PS:Salesman, 11- 
 
	No persuasion to go with it?  Not many sales, huh. 
 
> Language:English, beyond fluent. (This isn't on the chart. How do you 
> represent someone with a command of the language BEYOND that of the typical 
> native speaker?) 
 
	Call it a KS in vocab or specialized vocab or even the language as 
a whole. 
 
> Most of my knowledge skills (history of comics, knowledge of RPGs, 
> knowledge of anime, computer history, quote every line from Star Wars and 
> Monty Python, etc) are subsumed under 'geek stuff'. 
 
	I'd expand those under free "useless skills". 
 
	I'd have an 18- in "The Rocky Horror Picture Show" for starters. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:00:35 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: More supplement reviews 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:46 PM 4/14/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
>Subject: More supplement reviews 
>Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
> 
>Here's a third list of supplements I'd appreciate getting reviews/opinions 
>on.  The twist here is that I already own some of these, but maybe have a 
>problem with them and want to see how they are viewed by the overall 
>audience. 
> 
>* Challenges for Champions 
 
   This is not one of Hero Games' -- nor Andy Robinson's -- best efforts, 
but at the same time it's far from the worst.  While the scenarios 
themselves are generally rather weak and the NPCs mostly uninspiring, 
there's an extremely helpful opening article on scenario design, and the 
scenarios to help spark "ways of thinking" that just wouldn't occur to many 
of us.  And, despite what I say above, most of the scenarios are good 
enough to run as a quick knockoff when you don't have anything else to do 
(though some adjustment would be needed for many campaigns). 
   If this book were larger (and more expensive), I'd say pass on it. 
Since it's one of the smaller (and less expensive) books in the Hero Games 
line, however, I do recommend it. 
 
>* Invaders from Below 
 
   When I look at how much I like a supplement, the question I ask myself 
is, "What will this contribute to my campaign?"  A good supplement will 
furnish new rules, interesting characters (either new or updated), 
background material, or inspiration for scenarios.  Despite the fair amount 
of work and thought that evidently went into it, this book provides none of 
the above, at least from my viewpoint. 
 
>* The Olympians 
 
   My take on this book is similar to IFB; however, I don't find it quite 
as utterly useless.  In fact, the only reason I find it as useless as I do 
is because I have no plans on using the Greek gods in my campaign at any 
level.  It does, in fact, provide some material that I can use as 
background, and I can see a couple of possibilities for individual 
encounters.  Your campaign could probably make better use of it than mine. 
 
>* Champions Presents #1 and #2 
 
   Two decidedly above-average books. 
   CP1 is a trio of scenarios that are designed to be run back-to-back (not 
in any particular order, though a recommended procedure is given). 
Spectrum, by Scott Sigler, is more useful for the supervillain group it 
provides than for the scenario itself (in fact, one of the scenarios on my 
website uses them).  The second, No News of a Thaw, is an odd little piece 
by Phil Masters using Inuit mythology; I didn't care for it, but others' 
opinions may differ.  The third, Menace Out of Time, is a time-travel piece 
by Dean and Dana Edgell, and suffers only from its lack of interaction with 
the rest of the Champions Universe (as these all do). 
   In CP2, Stan West gives of MAVRIC; Timothy Keating treats us to Murder 
in Stronghold, and Cliff Christiansen gives us COIL.  That Stan is the 
creator of CLOWN is reflected somewhat in his scenario about a 
self-actualizing computer, though he makes good use of foreshadowing and 
recurrence.  Timothy's treatment of a murder mystery at Stronghold is 
probably the best superhero mystery done to date.  And as for Cliff's take 
on COIL, well, it also shows that he's one of the co-authors of the widely 
(and deservedly) lauded VIPER sourcebook.  Would it help to say that I'm 
making use of all three of these sections in the early stages of my campaign? 
 
>* Pyramid in the Sky 
 
   This is another one of the books that is interesting to read even if you 
never actually use it in a game.  It's designed as three scenarios that 
could be run separately, but are designed to be best run in sequence.  It 
starts with something just a notch above street-level, and gradually 
escalates to the foiling of a horde of invading aliens.  The street-level 
villains and the aliens are really the most interesting parts of the book; 
in fact, the two alien races shown would be fun additions for a 
high-powered Star Hero campaign (after the fashion of Star Trek: Voyager, 
which currently has to deal with Borg, Hirogen, and Species 8472).  One 
could also read it straight through and treat it like a novel; secrets and 
surprises are well-timed in the narrative, revealing them to the 
straight-through reader at about the same point that they'd be revealed to 
the PCs. 
 
>* Watchers of the Dragon 
 
   Speaking of reading straight through like a novel, this one is almost 
literally exactly that.  Is it a novella, a scenario book, or an enemies 
book?  Actually, it's a little of each, and I wish Hero Games would do more 
books like it.  (I hope to write one myself someday.)  The NPCs make a good 
selection of "Martial Arts Enemies" (with the occasional wizard, monster, 
or battlesuit), and the novella describes Seeker's journey to the 
Tournament of the Dragon (you know, that thing Green Dragon's been training 
for practically since Champions was first printed).  Appendices include the 
rules of the tournament, a rundown of scenario hooks (related to the 
Tournament and otherwise), lists of Oriental names, notes for converting 
the characters to non-superpowered Dark Champions levels, and generic 
martial arts thug and ninja write-ups.  All in all, unless you just don't 
like superheroic-level martial arts, I'd highly recommend this book. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2 
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Dennis C Hwang <dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu&> 
        Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: The Average man... 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:01:22 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Interestingly, I can attest that weight training for only 1.5 hours a week, 
will get you to that level in about 12 weeks. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From:	Dennis C Hwang [SMTP:dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu] 
> Sent:	Tuesday, April 14, 1998 3:56 PM 
> To:	Stainless Steel Rat 
> Cc:	Champions 
> Subject:	Re: The Average man... 
>  
>  
> I've assumed a sort of dead-lift/whole-body lift for the STR chart, since 
> a 100-kg (220-lb) bench press would be way above "average"... 
>  
> --Dennis 
> ************************************************************* 
> *   dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu   *   xenopathologist at large!   * 
> ************************************************************* 
> *   So...you're keeping me alive because you don't know     * 
> *   DOS.                                                    * 
> *                                                           * 
> *                       --Izzy to Gabriel                   * 
> *                         THE PROPHECY II                   * 
> ************************************************************* 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2 
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:05:11 -0500 
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Skills and setting their levels (was Re: Knights) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>	I'll kick myself, but, who's John Williams?  If a famous conductor 
>at the international level, you would be looking at more the 18- level 
>then the 14- level. 
 
Composers aren't as "visible" as actors or even directors, thus harder to 
remember.  John Williams has a career spanning several decades and well 
over 100 composing credits including '60's TV series "Lost In Space", "Land 
of the Giants", "Time Tunnel" and "Gilligan's Island"; a bit more recently, 
the movie soundtracks for "Fiddler On the Roof", "Poseidon Adventure", 
"Towering Inferno", "Earthquake", the "Jaws" films, the "Superman" movies, 
"Close Encounters", "E.T.", the whole "Star Wars" series (including those 
scheduled for release in 1999 through 2005), the "Raiders of the Lost Ark" 
series and dozens more. 
 
You may kick yourself now if you feel it's warranted. 
 
Damon 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:09:35 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Corporations 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:53 PM 4/14/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
>Subject: Re: Corporations 
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
> 
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>>   For myself, I wouldn't.  The only reason for that, though, is thI 
>don't (yet) own any of the C:NM stuff.  Once I've bought all the C:NM 
>books, though (which I fully do intend to do), I could give you a 
>comparison.< 
> 
>Well, the basic gist of the "60 pages about 30 things" section of the Bay 
>City book is that they spend one page talking about a location, and a 
>second page talking about a character associated with that location.  I'm 
>assuming that Corporations goes into a lot more detail than can be handled 
>in two pages, though.  Corporations is on my list of books to get, but it's 
>not top priority.  The ones at the top so far are Atlantis, Allies, and 
>Enemies Assemble. 
 
   Actually, each corporation in Corporations is handled in a little under 
two pages (on average), and only a couple include write-ups of specific 
individuals. 
 
>Just in a general sense and without ranking them or anything (unless you 
>want to take the time to do so), what would you say are the best three to 
>five 4E Champions supplements?  Worst three to five? 
 
   I don't think I want to answer this question.  My opinions on Champions 
books tend to be rather mercurial, and my Top Five and Bottom Five lists 
could change by the time I get done typing them.  A few books (Bestiary, 
Creatures of the Night, or Invasions: Target Earth, for instance) have been 
on either list at any given time, and most of the time Alien Enemies is on 
both simultaneously. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:12:02 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Which published villains do you use? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 05:15 PM 4/14/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
>Subject: Which published villains do you use? 
> 
>I'm just curious, which published villains make regular appearances in your 
>campaigns?  I assume Viper is probably a mainstay in the majority of 
>campaigns, but how about groups like Zodiac or solo villains like Dark 
>Seraph (just to throw out some names)?  My campaign has just started so I 
>haven't pinned down the regulars yet, but in past campaigns Viper and Demon 
>were the two most regularly featured villain organizations, and Terror, 
>Inc. was also a big player. 
 
   My current cast of regulars include: 
 
   Card Shark 
   COIL 
   Cy-Force 
   Crusher Gang 
   Genocide 
   Headhunter 
   The Posse 
   PSI 
   VIPER 
   VOICE 
 
   Of course, all but three (Card Shark, the Crusher Gang, and VOICE) are 
Hunters of someone, so their appearances are pretty easy to predict. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2 
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net&> 
        Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Proffesional Skills x2 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:16:28 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
No.  Being a professional teacher is not the same as knowing how to teach 
something to someone.  Anyone whose been to college knows this. 
 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From:	Stainless Steel Rat [SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net] 
> Sent:	Tuesday, April 14, 1998 4:31 PM 
> To:	Champions 
> Subject:	Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> Goode, Jason writes: 
>  
> > Actually, a teacher who is any good would also have a skill in teaching. 
>  
> Methinks Jason missed where I pointed out that: 
>  
> >> I mean, a teacher needs "Professional Skill: Teacher" to be able to 
> >> teach. 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
> Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
> Charset: noconv 
>  
> iQCVAwUBNTPHfZ6VRH7BJMxHAQEdjQP9En2DmuCUwB2bOROfh5uH2R8nK3anMiO0 
> OBc+4BzQBGV7AvOFNxJvfBURU3S8M8WL6YDTWGuOorApykeb7UDoQzyEp2k+yda+ 
> FLIMfno1c10h7r1UW1UwaElVyKA3P6JF8AWA21WOpUw6mKV5fFiQNWa2U6xGp8e9 
> idV9Ava6wmU= 
> =bQyX 
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
> --  
> Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
> PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and 
> cover 
>                                     \ head. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo dub-img-7.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @dub-img-7.compuserve.com ip 149.174.206.137 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:16:36 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Hero Wish List 
Cc: "[unknown]" <CHAMP-L@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id RAA09432 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Message text written by Brian Wong 
>1. Cardboard miniatures, blanks, siloettes (sp wrong, I failed my Int 
check), 
        and fully drawn and colored of all sorts. 
6. A whole book of siloettes (failed that Int roll again. :) ) for my less 
        art inclined players. 
7. quicky scenerio books, showing how to take a basic thread and expand it 
        into an advneture, rather than the full adventure. Example of this 
        would be Challenges for Champions done even better. (I think, just 
        bought it, haven't read it yet.)< 
 
These would be great.  I hadn't thought of a book of silhouettes (actually, 
I'd prefer a book of character sheets but with tons of different 
silhouettes, so you could photocopy the one you want to use), but I'd love 
to see that.  Also, I would love to see more books along the lines of 
Challenges for Champions, where you get lots of adventure ideas in one 
book.  This to me would be a lot more valuable than a book that was just 
one adventure, even though each adventure idea wouldn't be as fleshed out. 
 
>4. Champions Plus. Rules expansions, optional rules, and popular house 
rules 
        put this one out on a one volume a year basis or something. 
        Collect rules from people's house games and present them for 
        everyone's perusal.< 
 
I would suggest that each book should publish everything from the old book 
(maybe revised), plus whatever new stuff came up in a year.  The reason I 
suggest this is because, once early issues become unavailable, you'll have 
a split in the demographic between veteran players who know about Rule Y 
and relative newbies that can only find out about it by talking to 
veterans. 
 
>2. Genre books (Fantasy Hero, Space Hero, Super Hero) 
3. Sub genre books (like Golden Age heroes, Lands of Mystery, Dark 
Champions) 
5. Gm and Players screens, now of course, the players screen need not be a 
        stand up, but just a few pages of quick ref stuff. 
9. Villian and Hero collections. Enemies and Allies books. Though I 
disliked 
        allies as it lacked enough solo's and had too many teams for my 
tastes. 
        I would want these to be single quick NPC's I could toss in on a 
rainy 
        day. Or scavenge for parts, more or less, when building my own 
NPC's.< 
 
I'm not sure why these are on your wishlist, since they already exist.  The 
packet of charts that came with the GM screen makes a handy reference for 
all players. 
 
>>8. WorldBooks, Licenced lines. Marvel Hero, Conan Fantasy Hero, Expanding 
        Western Shores out to a full worldbook. San Angelo, etc...<< 
 
To be honest, I think of the Hero System as strictly a Superhero system, 
and I've been resistant to trying it for anything else (for example, when I 
was shopping for a new fantasy system, I chose Earthdawn over Fantasy Hero 
and others).  However, these would probably be good ideas for the majority 
of players who don't have this hangup.  I'd be particularly interested in a 
game and/or worldbook that did justice to the world of Conan...I'm one of 
the few people who bought (and still own) the Conan RPG that TSR put out 
years ago. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:20:15 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Adventure Idea 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:18 PM 4/14/1998 -0500, bobby farris wrote: 
>        Okay, on the 12 noon news I hear a report that the military 
>loaded some napalm on a train to take it to be destroyed. Well, the 
>company that was going to destroy it backed out of the deal and now they 
>are not sure where the train is. They think it is somewhere in the New 
>Mexico area. 
> 
>        Is this a GM's plot or what? 
 
   It works for me. 
   There's almost always something going on in the news that could be 
worked into an adventure scenario.  Shelley has tied in the Branch Davidian 
suicide into the background of PRIMUS, I'm working on ideas to tie the 
Oklahoma City bombing into a VOICE plot, and I'm sure someone could blame 
the recent rash of schoolyard shootings into something arranged by PSI.  It 
just takes a bit of imagination.  (And yours is apparently healthy!) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2 
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net&> 
        Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Joe Solider on 100 points?!?!? 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:21:40 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
You know, based on your perception of Joe Soldier, I really must ask have 
you ever been in the military?  Strike that - I will just say that your 
perception of Joe soldier is amazingly and completely unlike mine, or anyone 
I every met, or soldiered with, or discussed the military with, etc. 
 
Jason Goode  
 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From:	Stainless Steel Rat [SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net] 
> Sent:	Tuesday, April 14, 1998 4:30 PM 
> To:	Champions 
> Subject:	Re: Joe Solider on 100 points?!?!? 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> Goode, Jason writes: 
>  
> > A rather significant percentage of soldiers do not come straight out of 
> > high school.  Even those that do, often have jobs in high school.  And 
> > this is a standard soldier - not a recruit. 
>  
> "Joe Soldier" is fresh out of basic and specialist training. 
>  
> > Infantry are trained in basic tactics in basic/AIT, with more training 
> as 
> > you ascend in rank, both through schools and OJT. 
>  
> 8- like I said. 
>  
> > Infantry do learn about the military and its history and its customs, 
> > particularly if they want to pass any promotion boards.  In fact, the 
> > most unit museums are taken care of by enlisted personnel. 
>  
> Not something that "Joe Soldier" will be particularly concerned about. 
>  
> > Rangers are in the *minority* of airborne troopers.  The 82nd Airborne 
> > Division and the rest of the XVIIIth Airborne Corps is a prime example. 
>  
> Airborne Infantry units are separate from Infantry units. 
>  
> > All US Army soldiers are taught to navigate, infantry even more so. 
>  
> Orienteering 8-, as specified.  Or Navigation 8-, take your pick (they are 
> the same skil as far as game mechanics go). 
>  
> > If a soldier is a member of a rapid response unit (like the entire 
> > XVIIIth Airborne Corps) 
>  
> This is not "Joe Soldier". 
>  
> > If you are on active duty, the US Army certainly comes up more than 8- 
> IRL. 
>  
> But when on active duty you are not "subject to recall (reactivation)". 
>  
> > A great many enlisted are married.  some E-1s come in married and I'd 
> > venture that at least 50% of E-5 and above are married. 
>  
> E-5 is not "Joe Soldier", the military is his career. 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
> Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
> Charset: noconv 
>  
> iQCVAwUBNTPHP56VRH7BJMxHAQFU7QP/YCIf1rOcApUEws7ZqLPvzuSjgEBusNOg 
> XYK7QKXjgH2Pmh2jSjhJBr2Nq+6aDFSk49qngfoHENVM9xZ9Cq4GzTwa1I74NC8q 
> a3jR2lWV3jQSzp2RVIkIIFSqd4ZzKTZbsPR7KHN+Yh4XofDVFZ09vt5g2nbA5iwK 
> 6TF1bI19JTQ= 
> =ZA6z 
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
> --  
> Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
> PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
>                                     \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 14 Apr 1998 17:26:15 -0400 
Lines: 27 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Goode, Jason writes: 
 
> No.  Being a professional teacher is not the same as knowing how to teach 
> something to someone.  Anyone whose been to college knows this. 
 
I do not say this often: you are utterly and completely wrong.  "PS: 
Teacher" is the skill to teach, just as "PS: Auto Mechanic" is the skill to 
fix a car, just as "PS: Electrician" is the skill to wire a house, just as 
"PS: Surgeon" is the skill to perform surgery, just as "PS: Lawer" is the 
skill to practice law, etc. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNTPUdZ6VRH7BJMxHAQHxlgQApFh9dXOgjRP+iIGkDuqnviMn+tXWt6cG 
xVinw1trqVjYPm/C2RlvtB9p5Q+gOOUR/aMdyY7m1iad6K4NhFeR1JeI4DipIVZK 
MmcHa0sH9Pumev1Q9+4Qeo/Jp41nzpk7FuD37UtMm6fsK7kYzPCR62wk5KecaBjV 
bR7GriYah0c= 
=Xz56 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mercury.sun.com from samuel.bell@eng.sun.com server @mercury.Sun.COM ip 192.9.25.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:28:56 -0700 
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org, ratinox@peorth.gweep.net 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
-> From ratinox@peorth.gweep.net Tue Apr 14 14:25:17 1998 
-> Goode, Jason writes: 
->  
-> > No.  Being a professional teacher is not the same as knowing how to teach 
-> > something to someone.  Anyone whose been to college knows this. 
->  
-> I do not say this often: you are utterly and completely wrong.  "PS: 
-> Teacher" is the skill to teach, just as "PS: Auto Mechanic" is the skill to 
-> fix a car, just as "PS: Electrician" is the skill to wire a house, just as 
-> "PS: Surgeon" is the skill to perform surgery, just as "PS: Lawer" is the 
-> skill to practice law, etc. 
->  
 
Rat: take a deep breath and read what he wrote again. He's just saying that 
some teachers don't know how to teach. He's not saying anything about game 
mechanics, he's just saying that some incompetent teachers are still getting 
paid. 
 
							-Sam 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail1.geo.net from lizard@mrlizard.com server @mail1.geo.net ip 166.90.101.11 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:30:26 -0700 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: Which published villains do you use? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
I have not used 'published' villains in any of my games -- the creation of 
the villains is part of the fun! By the time you're done rewriting origins, 
motivations, powers, etc, you might as well have created a new villain anyway. 
 
Unless you're actually playing in a published universe, which is something 
else I've never done. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:32:57 -0700 
To: JASON SULLIVAN <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu&> champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Test 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 02:05 PM 4/14/1998 -0500, JASON SULLIVAN wrote: 
>Hi.  Anyone getting this? 
 
   I did.  :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 14:43:11 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:43 AM 4/14/1998 -0700, Dennis C Hwang wrote: 
>On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Lizard wrote: 
> 
>> ...should have average stats -- straight 8-10, with maybe 1 or 2 stats at 
>> 11. The rest of his 25 points should go to skills. 
>>  
>> Most of the sample 'average' characters have stats which are too high. 
>>  
>> Remember:Only 2% of the population has an IQ of 130+ (INT 13-14). 1/100th 
>> of 1% has an IQ of 180+ (INT 18+). The same figures apply to physical stats 
>> as well, or should.  
> 
>Well, I think this brings up an interesting point.  Since the Hero 
>System's "Normals Max Out At 20" rule isn't really hard-and-fast (just 
>pay double), do "normals" really max out at 20?  With relatively cheap 
>stats like STR, INT, PRE, and COM, especially, it's not that expensive to 
>create ostensible "normals" with stats above 20.  This implies (to me) 
>that normals with stats >20 are actually not overly unusual, given a large 
>enough population. 
> 
>My take on it is that the 8-20 range represents the mean +/- 2SD of the 
>hypothetical normal distribution for adult humans.  This leaves a 
>remaining 2.5% on either end to have values >20 or <8, and also expands 
>the range of stats available to normals.  (Of course, if I had my way, 
>we'd also be using a stat/3-based skill system, so that more of the 
>intervening numbers *mean* something, but that's a topic for another 
>post...:) 
 
   This is, in my view, perfectly reasonable. 
   My "house rule" is that a character with NCM can spend up to a total of 
40 points (after doubling) on Characteristics (including Running, Swimming, 
Lightning Reflexes, etc.) above the listed maxima.  When one spends that 
much, one has spent as much as one would have spent without the 
Disadvantage.  Approached another way, just figure that the extra points 
spent on higher Characteristics (and such) is actually a reduction in the 
Disadvantage value. 
   Fuzion takes a similar view; Characteristic values of up to 7 (which is 
about 20 in Hero terms) is the most that the majority can expect, but you 
don't get into truly superhuman levels until you get past 10 (which 
translates to about 30). 
 
>What about BODY?  BODY is actually one of the stats with which I have a 
>great deal of conceptual trouble.  In game terms, it seems analogous to, 
>essentially, Hit Points.  But what does that translate to in real life 
>(tm)?  Mass?  Will to Live?  Damage Resistance?  Physique? 
> 
>I generally end up thinking of BODY as overall mass (kind of like 
>Chaosium's SIZ attribute), but this usually leads to my characters 
>rarely buying up BODY, since I don't picture them as significantly larger 
>than average. 
 
   The table on page 176 of the HSR gives typical BODY values according to 
mass.  An average man, as can be expected, has 10 BODY at 100kg.  An 
unliving object of the same mass has -3 BODY (so a corpse would have 7 
BODY).  A complex machine has -5 BODY (so an android would have 5 BODY). 
But obviously there's more to it than that, since people (and androids, now 
that I think about it) have widely varying amounts of BODY, both higher and 
lower (though mostly higher, at least for PCs and major NPCs). 
   In fact, though I'm not finding in in the HSR, I think it was an earlier 
edition of Champions that specifically stated that BODY represented not 
only mass but will to live, general health, and other factors.  So your 
assessment is quite correct. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:57:47 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> >	A writing skill to go with it?  This will help you try to get 
> >something published, but not write it. 
> 
> Apologies in advance for the rudeness to follow, but... 
 
	I'll accept the quite necessary apologies. 
 
> You are out of your tiny little mind.  Writing is EXACTLY what PS: Writing 
> will help a person do.  Any Professional Skill "gives the character the 
> ability to perform a certain profession."  I'd have thought a person with 
> your better-than-average memory would have recalled that description.  Why 
> are you so eager to create new Skills when the system has two generic Skill 
> groups (KS and PS) that were specifically designed to cover all this 
> stuff...Football(DEX-based), and now Writing(?-based). 
 
	Because I don't feel it covers certain professions and skills, 
especially ones similar to examples in the book. 
 
	The book includes Acting, Persuasion, and Oratory as possible 
creative expression skills.  However, they won't give one the ability to 
hold a job in these areas.  Mechanic is a skill totally separate from PS: 
Mechanic -- both are needed for a mechanic, IMO. 
 
	As writing is a means of expression, I feel that it should 
probably be a PRE based skill.  Not all writers writing for a living will 
have it, just the good ones.  I'd argue it's an everyman skill at the 8- 
level, actually.  Now there are plenty of good writers who are quite 
unable to be published.  They aren't "professionally" writers and don't 
have the PS. 
 
	Football is probably best handled with specialized combat skills, 
actually.  PS: Football player would work for many things.  Not for 
throwing, and probably not for catching, however.  Same for tackling and 
eluding the tackle.  Heck, even blocking.  Those are all combat skills. 
 
> If you want more than the ordinary ability to sell a writen work, PS: 
> Literary Agent might be one way to go. PS: Editor or KS: Publishing Houses 
> (so you know what they're looking for) would not hurt, and high EGO and PRE 
> are also helpful when you meet with agents, editors, publishers and other 
> potential industry contacts.  Complementary Skills might, under some 
 
	Oh, sure.  But someone who is just good at writing (the Writing 
Pre-based skill) will not be able to cover these areas that would be 
covered by even an 8- PS: Writer. 
 
> circumstances, include Persuasion, Trading and Bureaucratics (as applicable 
> to the publishing industry, and if you don't think that's a bureaucracy, 
> you've never dealt with it). 
 
	I won't argue.  I've had friends try to get published, and some of 
the works were good. 
 
>  All of the above is strictly optional; PS: 
> Writer is all you need.  If you want a better than 11- chance of making a 
> sale (because there *will* be negative modifiers in the current market), 
> spend a few extra points and improve your base roll. 
 
	That's for making the sale.  It is no suprise that alot of what's 
out there is shlock written with very little skill, but it was published. 
Totally different skills. 
 
> Isaac Asimov's SF Magazine, etc.  She's been nominated for an Edgar Award 
> for Best Juvenile Mystery.  Well, this is beside the point. 
 
	Not really.  It's an example that she's better than average at 
writing at at making a living as a writer.  Someone with PS: Journalist 
would be able to make a living as a journalist, but wouldn't be anything 
special as a writer. 
 
> Bottom line: you appear in many cases to be tossing aside the basic 
> function of the Professional Skill, reducing it at best to the status of a 
> complementary roll for some new Skill you create off-hand. 
 
	Not necessarily.  Just in certain things.  If you want to abstract 
football, you're gonna need something more than a PS that will cover all 
of the everyday.  Like I said, combat skills work best. 
 
	And writing is a form of expression beyond the ability to make 
money doing it.  Just as, I believe, Teaching deserves it's own PRE-based 
skill that is _not_ a PS.  I've known teachers who can't teach worth crap 
who have no problem making a living in the teaching field. 
 
> Time to create that kill file at last (though there will be one person 
> ahead of you in that list). 
 
	Now, now.  Even after that venemous reply, I'm not gonna killfile 
you.  I find these debates nice. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:01:03 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> > 	Um.  No.  Much of IQ _is_ how fast you can think.  Some is what 
> > you know, but it often goes together. 
> 
> You might want to check your BBB on this one, Tim, becuse it says otherwise. 
 
	It mentions thinking quickly which, I argue, is pretty much 
necassary to be brilliant.  You can know a lot without a high INT stat (or 
a high IQ, for that matter) but not be brilliant in any way.  The 
description is vague enough to support either of us, though. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:02:02 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Skills and setting their levels (was Re: Knights) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> >	I'll kick myself, but, who's John Williams?  If a famous conductor 
> >at the international level, you would be looking at more the 18- level 
> >then the 14- level. 
 
	Actually, I got it just before reading your response.  I knew the 
name was familiar. 
 
> You may kick yourself now if you feel it's warranted. 
 
	Yup.  And definately better than 14-. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:02:57 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> > 	And supporting characters would be in the same scenarios.  They'll 
> > develop as the players do to provide a fluid world.  I don't much like the 
> > sound of your cardboard silouette of a world. 
> 
> We aren't talking about the world, we are talking about a game. 
 
	You make no sense.  A game is contained in a game world.  They go 
hand in hand.  If the world doesn't change, things get pretty stiff. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:04:50 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> Interestingly, I can attest that weight training for only 1.5 hours a week, 
> will get you to that level in about 12 weeks. 
 
	And that is a good deal more than what the "average" does. 
Expecially when that average is the average adult, not just male. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:05:41 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Proffesional Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> No.  Being a professional teacher is not the same as knowing how to teach 
> something to someone.  Anyone whose been to college knows this. 
 
	Correction.  Anyone who has been to school of any type most likely 
knows this, and anyone who has been to High School definately knows this. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:10:00 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Reply-To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> > No.  Being a professional teacher is not the same as knowing how to teach 
> > something to someone.  Anyone whose been to college knows this. 
> 
> I do not say this often: you are utterly and completely wrong.  "PS: 
> Teacher" is the skill to teach, just as "PS: Auto Mechanic" is the skill to 
> fix a car, 
 
	Nope.  That last is Mechanics, actually.  You'd need both skills. 
The PS will get you by with some minor skills. 
 
> "PS: Surgeon" is the skill to perform surgery, just as "PS: Lawer" is the 
> skill to practice law, etc. 
 
	Right, though the former won't go over very well without a SS to 
go with it, and perhaps a surgery skill (debateable).  The later will need 
some KSs and, to be successful in court, a persuasion or oratory type of 
thing.  And both would need licenses, of course. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo gwu.ericy.com from exucurt@exu.ericsson.se server @gwu.ericy.com ip 208.196.3.162 
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:21:07 -0500 (CDT) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: Professional Skills 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
So what do I need to buy for my new character ?  
A professional comic book artist with a degree from the Art Institute,  
and former worker in a commercial art shop. 
 
Curt Hicks   
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 14 Apr 1998 18:29:52 -0400 
Lines: 34 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Tim R Gilberg writes: 
 
>> You might want to check your BBB on this one, Tim, becuse it says 
>> otherwise. 
 
> 	It mentions thinking quickly which, 
 
It does not "mention" it, it states outright that that is the primary 
aspect of the characteristic. 
 
> I argue, is pretty much necassary to be brilliant. 
 
> You can know a lot without a high INT stat (or a high IQ, for that 
> matter) but not be brilliant in any way. 
 
And you can know very little but still accidentally come up "brilliant".  A 
lucky die roll is all that is required to be brilliant. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNTPjX56VRH7BJMxHAQEZrQP/S3JgsY5nFgWFGPNsP5ZK9FLxryVdoDmf 
ApSrkOgtp3Mfe7ZvYIZq/O0zpsmKswHpovfL/uC/DvvdQJJPJwLNEfj2kXzsW1nc 
hh6Ki+X84YhFNBbcZduF4mpfKyvSSM1D7icvJzlPyfUxur3vpHFGxGf5iVZ/4K9C 
lvGmijKPuyw= 
=Plza 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 14 Apr 1998 18:30:58 -0400 
Lines: 25 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Sam Bell writes: 
 
> Rat: take a deep breath and read what he wrote again. He's just saying 
> that some teachers don't know how to teach. 
 
So what?  Having the job does not mean one is qualified for it, it just 
means you passed whatever exam was handed to you.  An incompetant teacher 
will have something less than an 11- PS: Teacher skill. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNTPjn56VRH7BJMxHAQEi3AP/dKdJ536THGNZM4cFd59gVwZJ/6qgt2R8 
u23rCFap5E3h18nrdSRhvZE3GnG9m7DWJNyiuN7mBcXw2e2PT7/iVOA7uSys1vv2 
9t6YSCIQ7n/AN48VViBV75SrA85rgqa2qjwjeF768eMgRTVDriKzdXUMO0QgMjsD 
Gcvd4UyS/hY= 
=HVbv 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo gwu.ericy.com from exucurt@exu.ericsson.se server @gwu.ericy.com ip 208.196.3.162 
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:39:33 -0500 (CDT) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: More supplement reviews 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> wrote:  
 
> >* Champions Presents #1 and #2 
>  
>    Two decidedly above-average books. 
>    CP1 is a trio of scenarios that are designed to be run back-to-back (not 
> in any particular order, though a recommended procedure is given). 
 
Minor nit-pick.  If I remember properly, 
they gave suggestions for running them back-to-back or inter- 
leaving the scenarios.  IMO, that's not the *same* as the scenarios being 
*designed* to be run back-to-back.   
 
I actually ran No News of a Thaw.  Did more foreshadowing than typical with 
my scenarios.  I think the scenario went over OK, if not being really  
enthusiastically received.  Worse part when I ran it was that it's a good 
example of a "Oh wow, look at all the cool scenery, etc." and my player that 
was most into that didn't make the session.   
 
Curt 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Joe Solider on 100 points?!?!? 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 14 Apr 1998 18:44:47 -0400 
Lines: 45 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Goode, Jason writes: 
 
> You know, based on your perception of Joe Soldier, I really must ask have 
> you ever been in the military?  Strike that - I will just say that your 
> perception of Joe soldier is amazingly and completely unlike mine, or 
> anyone I every met, or soldiered with, or discussed the military with, 
> etc. 
 
I think the problem is not our perceptions of the military, but in how to 
model them with the game mechanics.  You are building "Joe Soldier", the 
average grunt, as a low-powered heroic-level charcter, not the normal 
person that he really is, putting far more points into what should be 
"passing familiarities" than are necessary.  This is the same issue that I 
have with the 200-point "street cop". 
 
As far as game mechanics go, the modern "specialist" is a slightly better 
than average normal person holding down a relatively normal job (PS: 
whatever his specialty might be, plus one or two other supporting skills), 
and with the addition of basic combat training (weapon familiarities, some 
combat skill levels, etc.) and a few other skills to round him out.  These 
extras are generally "paid" with the associated disadvantages of serving in 
the military.  In other words, "Joe Soldier" is a 25-point normal with 
15-25 points of extras and 15-25 points of corresponding disadvantages. 
 
When Joe Soldier decides to go career, or OCS, or an elite unit, he will 
start picking up a lot of stuff.  If he can hack it, he might actually come 
out as a genuine 50-point character.  A very few might even qualify as 
full-blown heroic scale characters. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNTPm356VRH7BJMxHAQEhmAQAuUxyCDsc5i9HI+UPCVqn3+Jb+l2kROAB 
04gghFDBxKkOXXbYhw2iiYj51zuft80ms5A7SiwkAzoe6TIgra/7j11ZHoOLIPJH 
nxMaKiIdAcQF351Ojn/KZA/FB/4X+t4mzsreoPBZ7OE6tkRVgkDTXifbzX4X2sSF 
yzxwwTx3C3s= 
=wOpx 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mailhub.iastate.edu from rharriso@iastate.edu server @mailhub.iastate.edu ip 129.186.1.102 
X-Sender: rharriso@pop-2.iastate.edu 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:52:30 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Robert Harrison <rharriso@iastate.edu> 
Subject: Re: Gadget Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:18 AM 4/13/98 -0400, you wrote: 
>How would people write up a line gun?  For firing of climbing lines, not 
>swing lines. 
> 
 
If you're talking about Rorschach's line gun, you should also give it 2d6 RKA :) 
________________________________________ 
Robert L. Harrison 
Department of Entomology 
411 Science II 
Iowa State University 
Ames, IA  50011 
Phone: (515) 294-3963 
Fax: (515) 294-5957 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Professional Skills 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 14 Apr 1998 18:53:05 -0400 
Lines: 27 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Curt Hicks writes: 
 
> So what do I need to buy for my new character ?  
> A professional comic book artist with a degree from the Art Institute,  
> and former worker in a commercial art shop. 
 
PS: Artist 11- at the very least.  The degree might be worth a 1 point 
perq.  Experience in the comercial art shop might justify a higher than 
base level PS: Artist, as well as a passing familiarity with how a business 
is run. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNTPozp6VRH7BJMxHAQHJzQP/SIKFDo+c5Vrg1dTAGRd1Vn/5N3JSf0rU 
F32tS+vi0OTN2U3xyLS7RDeGic8Oomjg+Do3Abnbs4rLU4hpudrs53JlNdKEPTDE 
7gt2LOcHKyu/+xzRfcbcnRgayKMul4Dh2061jSRSLUHOL8kX5Vkhflwj5624uN7f 
l5HYtGA9rdM= 
=hsJI 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:59:43 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: Professional Skills 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> So what do I need to buy for my new character ? 
> A professional comic book artist with a degree from the Art Institute, 
> and former worker in a commercial art shop. 
 
	PS: Comic book artist will be fine if you're not particularly 
good.  I'd add a KS: Art and a KS: Art History for your degree as well as 
a skill Artist.  The skill would be probably be 11- for 3, +2 per one. 
Artistry is more than PRE, I'd say. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:07:11 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 08:52 PM 4/14/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
>Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
>Subject: Re: The Average man... 
>> >  A writing skill to go with it?  This will help you try to get 
>> > something published, but not write it. 
>> 
>>  KS: Writing? 
> 
> Nah.  With that you could teach it.  Call it a new skill: Writing. 
>I'm not sure if it should just be 11- or be based on INT or PRE. 
 
   I think it would probably be most representative to make Writing a 
stat-based Professional Skill.  Let it variably be based on INT, PRE, or 
EGO, depending on the writing style and lifestyle of the individual (in my 
case, I think I'd go with EGO; my better stuff really comes out by force of 
will, a phenomenon that's extremely hard to explain to someone who hasn't 
experienced it). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo12.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo12.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.34 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:08:11 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< I'd tend to argue that PS: Police Officer would cover all of those Skill 
that a police officer would need no more than Familiarity with, like KS: Civil 
Law and Weaponsmith, just as part of the "package."  If a full-fledged Skill 
is needed, then that would probably need to be taken separately. >> 
 
  An interesting thought. However, based on the description of the PS in the 
Hero System rules I would have to, of course, disagree.  
 
<< "Peace, Officer."  ;-] >> 
 
  <LOL> 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2 
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Proffesional Skills x2 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:13:54 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
True.  I was simply recalling my most recent experiences.  Many teachers 
either learned their field yet remain unskilled at effectively passing that 
knowledge to others, or have become disenchanted and are just marking time 
and collecting a paycheck.  Sad, really.  
 
Jason Goode 
 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From:	Tim R. Gilberg [SMTP:trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu] 
> Sent:	Tuesday, April 14, 1998 6:06 PM 
> To:	Goode, Jason 
> Cc:	Champions 
> Subject:	RE: Proffesional Skills x2 
>  
>  
> > No.  Being a professional teacher is not the same as knowing how to 
> teach 
> > something to someone.  Anyone whose been to college knows this. 
>  
> 	Correction.  Anyone who has been to school of any type most likely 
> knows this, and anyone who has been to High School definately knows this. 
>  
>  
> 				-Tim Gilberg 
>  
> 		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:20:12 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> > Rat: take a deep breath and read what he wrote again. He's just saying 
> > that some teachers don't know how to teach. 
> 
> So what?  Having the job does not mean one is qualified for it, it just 
> means you passed whatever exam was handed to you.  An incompetant teacher 
> will have something less than an 11- PS: Teacher skill. 
 
	I'd have to disagree.  Being unable to teach means you have to be 
better at "looking good".  They'd have the 11- PS to get and keep the job, 
and nothing in "Teaching". 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo22.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo22.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.66 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:21:56 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< My house rules also include the idea the if the Proffesional skill has 
another applicable skill than the player must have that skill. For example: 
 
    Player purchases PS: Computer Programmer. In this case the PS does NOT 
help the player perform the skill, for that they need Computer Programing. 
However, the skill does help the player know where to look for jobs, the names 
of other computer programmers, and other such trivialities. >> 
 
  Sounds good to me. In fact, that's the way I see PS also.  ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo access5.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access5.digex.net ip 205.197.245.196 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:27:09 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Gadget Question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Robert Harrison wrote: 
 
> At 12:18 AM 4/13/98 -0400, you wrote: 
> >How would people write up a line gun?  For firing of climbing lines, not 
> >swing lines. 
> > 
>  
> If you're talking about Rorschach's line gun, you should also give it 
> 2d6 RKA :) 
 
How'd you guess? 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:32:10 -0700 
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Hero Wish List 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:59 PM 4/14/1998 -0700, Brian Wong wrote: 
>> It's unfortunate for me that my tastes in these matters run  
>> exactly counter to Hero's marketing philosophies. I wouldn't mind  
>> having a self-contained published adventure module now and then  
>> for a one-shot break from my own work, and I appreciate genre  
>> or period support materials, but I'm not much interested in  
>> published characters or organizations. 
> 
> I agree here. Here's what my dream come true of Hero Products would be: 
> 
>1. Cardboard miniatures, blanks, siloettes (sp wrong, I failed my Int check), 
> and fully drawn and colored of all sorts. 
 
   Someone else made mention of silhouette Cardboard Heroes.  I vote for 
both options:  regular Cardboard Heroes for published NPCs, and silhouettes 
for PCs and house NPCs. 
 
>2. Genre books (Fantasy Hero, Space Hero, Super Hero) 
> 
>3. Sub genre books (like Golden Age heroes, Lands of Mystery, Dark Champions) 
 
   From what I understand, we'll be getting plenty of these on both sides 
of the Hero/Fuzion line.  Of course, what comes out in Hero Plus depends in 
large part on what people want to write. 
 
>4. Champions Plus. Rules expansions, optional rules, and popular house rules 
> put this one out on a one volume a year basis or something. 
> Collect rules from people's house games and present them for 
> everyone's perusal. 
 
   Basically, revive the Hero System Almanacs.  I'd deem that a good call, 
though it'd probably be distributed under Hero Plus. 
 
>5. Gm and Players screens, now of course, the players screen need not be a 
> stand up, but just a few pages of quick ref stuff. 
 
   Basically, a 5th Edition GM's screen.  Hey, Mark & Steve -- here's 
something to follow up the 5th Edition Rulebook with, like you did the 4th 
Edition!  (And I'll *definitely* buy it if you package it like you did the 
4th Edition one!) 
 
>6. A whole book of siloettes (failed that Int roll again. :) ) for my less 
> art inclined players. 
 
   Someone else mentioned a book of character sheets with different 
silhouettes, and I think I'd prefer that.  A disk of silhouettes for 
Creation Workshop character sheets would be cool too. 
 
>7. quicky scenerio books, showing how to take a basic thread and expand it 
> into an advneture, rather than the full adventure. Example of this 
> would be Challenges for Champions done even better. (I think, just 
> bought it, haven't read it yet.) 
 
   A couple of those would be cool, though I think the Hero Guys have been 
talking about publishing "quick scenarios" from their website once they 
have an electronic commerce system in place.  Advice on building good 
scenarios would be a good addition to the 5th Edition Hero System Rulebook, 
though, and I think Andy Robinson's words in C4C would be a good starting 
place. 
 
>8. WorldBooks, Licenced lines. Marvel Hero, Conan Fantasy Hero, Expanding 
> Western Shores out to a full worldbook. San Angelo, etc... 
 
   I don't think we can look forward to much in the way of licensed 
products in the Hero System; most are taking Fuzion.  However, there's been 
plenty in the works in the way of world books in Hero:  Bright Futures is 
already out, and a fantasy world (whose title I forget offhand -- Broken 
Kingdoms?) was in the final stages at last mention.  I think there's one 
more of each (fantasy and sci-fi) in the earlier stages of development as 
well. 
   As for Western Shores, something was mentioned about that some time ago, 
but it may have been abandoned. 
   My heroic-level campaign book, Chaos Theory (imagine Mulder and Scully 
as played by Leslie Nielson and Carol Kane), is still in the earliest 
stages of planning, and while I'm not sure exactly what I'm going to do 
with it, I do intend on getting it published in some form, almost certainly 
through either Hero Plus or GRG. 
 
>9. Villian and Hero collections. Enemies and Allies books. Though I disliked 
> allies as it lacked enough solo's and had too many teams for my tastes. 
> I would want these to be single quick NPC's I could toss in on a rainy 
> day. Or scavenge for parts, more or less, when building my own NPC's. 
 
   More Enemies books?  Maybe reworkings of the Enemies books by origin 
type (aliens, high tech, mutants, etc.), but I don't think we need a whole 
lot beyond that.  Any other characters (new or updated) should probably be 
limited to Ultimate books, geographic sourcebooks, and similar works. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:33:07 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:41 PM 4/14/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Tim R Gilberg writes: 
> 
>>  And supporting characters would be in the same scenarios.  They'll 
>> develop as the players do to provide a fluid world.  I don't much like the 
>> sound of your cardboard silouette of a world. 
> 
>We aren't talking about the world, we are talking about a game. 
 
   I got the impression that he was talking about a game world.  Or do the 
characters in your game operate in a vacuum? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:36:20 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
To: Champions Listserv <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: New Rules: Inactive Skills 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
	OK.  I mentioned a proposal for some new rules for Inactive 
Skills.  Here it is. 
 
	When designing a character, one has the option of noting Inactive 
Skills (signified by an "(IA)" after the skill name).  Such skills can be 
at whatever level is desired, though subject to GM approval. 
 
	These skills are not normally usable.  When a character attempts 
to use this skill in any more than a one-shot sorty of thing (GM 
discression), it is considered to be at one level below where it is 
purchased at in terms of skill rolls.  When thak skill is used, the 
character is assumed to be in the process of refamiliarizing him or 
herself with the skill.  He/She must either buy the skill to it's full 
point cost with on-hand XP or spend at least 1 XP per session until it is 
paid for.  At this time it will be considered to be once again at its full 
level of ability.  Even if immediately paying the XP, it will not be at 
its full level until the next session. 
 
	As an option, a GM can keep track of what skills of a character 
are not being used.  If a significant amount of time has passed, the GM 
can rule that the skill is Inactive and must be re-practiced for a session 
before full effectiveness is reached.  Until that time, it is at one level 
lower. 
 
	The levels: 
 
	Regular Skill			Inactive Skill 
 
	Familiarity 8-			No roll, just usefull for no 
					training needed for purchase 
 
	11-				8- 
 
	14- or higher			11- 
 
 
	So, what does everyone think?  This could be a great way to add 
color to a character, fitting the "I learned how to do that a long time 
ago" thing so often seen in comics. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:38:29 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: More supplement reviews 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 05:39 PM 4/14/1998 -0500, Curt Hicks wrote: 
> Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> wrote:  
> 
>> >* Champions Presents #1 and #2 
>>  
>>    Two decidedly above-average books. 
>>    CP1 is a trio of scenarios that are designed to be run back-to-back (not 
>> in any particular order, though a recommended procedure is given). 
> 
>Minor nit-pick.  If I remember properly, 
>they gave suggestions for running them back-to-back or inter- 
>leaving the scenarios.  IMO, that's not the *same* as the scenarios being 
>*designed* to be run back-to-back.   
 
   You are quite correct.  I missed my PS: Writing Roll and expressed 
myself poorly there.  :-] 
 
>I actually ran No News of a Thaw.  Did more foreshadowing than typical with 
>my scenarios.  I think the scenario went over OK, if not being really  
>enthusiastically received.  Worse part when I ran it was that it's a good 
>example of a "Oh wow, look at all the cool scenery, etc." and my player that 
>was most into that didn't make the session. 
 
   I think I'd recommend that people go along with this assessment of the 
scenario, than with mine (which comes from just generally looking it over; 
I've never actually run it). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:44:19 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 05:26 PM 4/14/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>Goode, Jason writes: 
> 
>> No.  Being a professional teacher is not the same as knowing how to teach 
>> something to someone.  Anyone whose been to college knows this. 
> 
>I do not say this often: you are utterly and completely wrong.  "PS: 
>Teacher" is the skill to teach, just as "PS: Auto Mechanic" is the skill to 
>fix a car, just as "PS: Electrician" is the skill to wire a house, just as 
>"PS: Surgeon" is the skill to perform surgery, just as "PS: Lawer" is the 
>skill to practice law, etc. 
 
   Actually, Rat, I can tell you from firsthand experience that it is you 
who are utterly and completely wrong.  However, I think it's because you're 
addressing a point other than the one which Jason is making. 
   I've been a student for several people who held the professional 
position of "Teacher" (so that they could put that on their Form 1040), but 
who didn't have enough actual skill in teaching to warrant even an 8- Roll. 
 I've also dealt with several people who could teach just about anything to 
just about anyone, but who weren't professional teachers (or in a couple of 
cases even professionals in the field in which they were giving instruction). 
   Having a license to teach and thereby being a "professional teacher" is 
quite different from having the skill to do it. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:46:20 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 06:30 PM 4/14/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>Sam Bell writes: 
> 
>> Rat: take a deep breath and read what he wrote again. He's just saying 
>> that some teachers don't know how to teach. 
> 
>So what?  Having the job does not mean one is qualified for it, it just 
>means you passed whatever exam was handed to you.  An incompetant teacher 
>will have something less than an 11- PS: Teacher skill. 
 
   That is precisely what Jason was saying when you said that he was 
"utterly and completely wrong." 
   And isn't that point different than the question of whether a 
Professional Skill is needed to actually perform the job (the point you 
raved on about)? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:49:59 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Skills and setting their levels (was Re: Knights) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:05 PM 4/14/1998 -0500, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote: 
>> I'll kick myself, but, who's John Williams?  If a famous conductor 
>>at the international level, you would be looking at more the 18- level 
>>then the 14- level. 
> 
>Composers aren't as "visible" as actors or even directors, thus harder to 
>remember.  John Williams has a career spanning several decades and well 
>over 100 composing credits including '60's TV series "Lost In Space", "Land 
>of the Giants", "Time Tunnel" and "Gilligan's Island"; a bit more recently, 
>the movie soundtracks for "Fiddler On the Roof", "Poseidon Adventure", 
>"Towering Inferno", "Earthquake", the "Jaws" films, the "Superman" movies, 
>"Close Encounters", "E.T.", the whole "Star Wars" series (including those 
>scheduled for release in 1999 through 2005), the "Raiders of the Lost Ark" 
>series and dozens more. 
 
   You forgot that he also directed and conducted the Boston Pops Orchestra 
for a few years (between Arthur Fiedler and Keith Lockhart). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:52:36 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:42 PM 4/14/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>Tim R Gilberg writes: 
> 
>>  Um.  No.  Much of IQ _is_ how fast you can think.  Some is what 
>> you know, but it often goes together. 
> 
>You might want to check your BBB on this one, Tim, becuse it says otherwise. 
 
   I didn't think there was even a mention of IQ in the BBB at all.  Where 
is it? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:54:33 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 05:01 PM 4/14/1998 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote: 
>> -----Original Message----- 
>> From: Dennis C Hwang [SMTP:dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu] 
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 1998 3:56 PM 
>> To: Stainless Steel Rat 
>> Cc: Champions 
>> Subject: Re: The Average man... 
>>  
>>  
>> I've assumed a sort of dead-lift/whole-body lift for the STR chart, since 
>> a 100-kg (220-lb) bench press would be way above "average"... 
   [reverse snip] 
>Interestingly, I can attest that weight training for only 1.5 hours a week, 
>will get you to that level in about 12 weeks. 
 
   With weight training, though, I think I'd tend to give a person a STR of 
13-15. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo16.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo16.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.38 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:55:45 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< Ah.  I see your point.  Still, even the "minor" jobs while not on patrol 
would earn some XP, though much of it would be "earmarked". >> 
 
  Hmm.. perhaps, but certainly a lot less so than working in patrol. An 
officer working in the jail certainly would have limitations as to what skills 
they would be able to increase (in game terms). But there are justifications 
for more than people might think. Case in point; Streetwise. 
 
  "WHAT? How could a jailer increase Streetwise??" 
 
  Simple. The jailer deals with dozens (probably hundreds or even thousands) 
of what...? Inmates! Criminals! Bad guys! Street urchins! And who knows the 
streets better than the bad guys? ;) Keep in mind that not all inmates are 
"anti-social" when it comes to cops and/or jailers. Some want to try to earn 
brownie points, and will give up info to a floor officer in order to assure 
they get to work in the laundry or kitchen, or get the extra 10 minutes of rec 
time... or want to switch cells because their bunk mate wants to take the term 
literally! <LOL> 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo20.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo20.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.42 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:06:09 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Solider on 100 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< Yeah, officers and career enslited, not Joe Soldier doing his basic tour of 
duty.>> 
 
  Hey, rat. Out of curiosity, how long were you in the military as an enlisted 
person? I'm serious. Were you ever? 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo wnsc_mail.centraltx.net from ronald@centraltx.net server root@mail.centraltx.net ip 208.135.247.48 
From: "Ron Abitz" <ronald@centraltx.net> 
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Joe anything on 100 points?!?!? 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:10:33 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Why do I keep seeing people equaling adverage with rookie/beginer. 
The adverage person of a career/job would have some on the job experince. 
For exmple the adverage soldier would be a PFC or a new SPC not a PVT right 
out of AIT. 
And at a guess (not having any personal experince) the adverage patrol 
officer would have 3 to 5 years on the job (maybe more). For those that 
think that a average anything is a rookie. What percetage of these types of 
organizations do you think are rookies 75-80? 
 
 
            Ron Abitz 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo30.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo30.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.74 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:11:49 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< "PS: Teacher" is the skill to teach, just as "PS: Auto Mechanic" is the 
skill to 
fix a car >> 
 
  That's funny... I thought the skill to fix a car was Mechanics. ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2 
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net&> 
        Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Proffesional Skills x2 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:13:56 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Now let me say something that I am very loathe to say.  However, you have 
earned it.  You are an idiot.  Well, okay, maybe not, but you do have a 
serious problem with understanding other people's points of view.  Your way 
is the only right way, and you can not accept that there are different 
styles that are all equally valid. 
 
I said nothing about game mechanics.  The last 24 hours on this list has 
very plainly demonstrated that there are numerous playing styles and 
interpretations of the same BBB that we've all read.  A lot of this revolves 
around the level of detail and 'reality' that an individual or group desires 
and enjoys.  That's fine and we all have different opinions on the topic. 
You seem to go very light detail, whereas Mark (@ GRG) goes to very great 
detail.  I find myself somewhere in the middle.  My last comment was a 
simple observation about teachers and teaching that I doubt that anyone on 
this list can honestly disagree with.  There are Professional Teachers who 
can make money, deal with the bureaucracy, publish papers, write books, fill 
out the paperwork, etc., but can't impart one microgram of knowledge to 
their students.  One the other hand, I have had teachers who have opened my 
eyes to worlds of knowledge, yet lost their jobs because they couldn't play 
the game of institutional bureaucratics.  I, myself, have often been told 
that I am excellent at teaching and that I would make a wonderful teacher. 
Yet, it is not my profession, not will it be in the foreseeable future.  I 
also know professional electricians who I wouldn't trust to change the 
batteries in a flashlight, yet they seem to do very well.  Programmers who 
are respected by their bosses and make a ton of money, yet couldn't code 
their way out of a bag.  I can go on and on, but the point remains clear and 
true:  Being able to make a living at a profession and being skilled at what 
that profession says you should be able to do are NOT the same thing.   
 
Personally, I don't care what level of detail you (or Mark, for that matter) 
prefer, because I am always going to go with what works best for 
entertaining me and my players.  My cops will have more skills than yours, 
but less than Mark's.  My goal is provide an afternoon of enjoyment by 
telling a good story - WITHOUT REGARD TO POINTS.  However, if we are having 
a discussion about a 'Realistically Detailed' (as Mark refers to the 
concept) teacher, then you must acknowledge that PS: Teaching and Skill: 
Teaching are not the same thing and should be regarded separately. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From:	Stainless Steel Rat [SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net] 
> Sent:	Tuesday, April 14, 1998 5:26 PM 
> To:	Champions 
> Subject:	Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> Goode, Jason writes: 
>  
> > No.  Being a professional teacher is not the same as knowing how to 
> teach 
> > something to someone.  Anyone whose been to college knows this. 
>  
> I do not say this often: you are utterly and completely wrong.  "PS: 
> Teacher" is the skill to teach, just as "PS: Auto Mechanic" is the skill 
> to 
> fix a car, just as "PS: Electrician" is the skill to wire a house, just as 
> "PS: Surgeon" is the skill to perform surgery, just as "PS: Lawer" is the 
> skill to practice law, etc. 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
> Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
> Charset: noconv 
>  
> iQCVAwUBNTPUdZ6VRH7BJMxHAQHxlgQApFh9dXOgjRP+iIGkDuqnviMn+tXWt6cG 
> xVinw1trqVjYPm/C2RlvtB9p5Q+gOOUR/aMdyY7m1iad6K4NhFeR1JeI4DipIVZK 
> MmcHa0sH9Pumev1Q9+4Qeo/Jp41nzpk7FuD37UtMm6fsK7kYzPCR62wk5KecaBjV 
> bR7GriYah0c= 
> =Xz56 
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
> --  
> Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include 
> an 
> PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell 
> to 
>                                     \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mailhost.infi.net from asahoshi@nr.infi.net server @mailhost.infi.net ip 208.131.167.6 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 98 20:16:27 -0400 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
cc: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Tim R. Gilberg trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu 4/14/98 6:01 PM 
 
> 
>> > 	Um.  No.  Much of IQ _is_ how fast you can think.  Some is what 
>> > you know, but it often goes together. 
>> 
>> You might want to check your BBB on this one, Tim, becuse it says otherwise. 
> 
>	It mentions thinking quickly which, I argue, is pretty much 
>necassary to be brilliant.  You can know a lot without a high INT stat (or 
>a high IQ, for that matter) but not be brilliant in any way.  The 
>description is vague enough to support either of us, though. 
 
How fast you think has nothing to do with IQ.  IQ is mearly a benchmark 
noting about how effective your, primarily linguistic, skills are relative 
to other people your same age.  IQ varies day to day and certainly quite 
a bit over the years.  It is not a real thing, just a current appearant 
benchmark (for that matter, "intelligence" isn't much better).  At any  
rate, 
sense IQ is specifically stated as being, in essence, mental speed it  
sould  
not be even remotely equated to IQ. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo29.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo29.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.73 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:25:38 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> Bottom line: you appear in many cases to be tossing aside the basic 
> function of the Professional Skill, reducing it at best to the status of a 
> complementary roll for some new Skill you create off-hand. 
 
  Here comes another clarification. 
 
  Professional Skill allows you to use your practical skills to engage in a 
profession. Thus, having a Mechanics skill at 13- makes one a wonderful 
mechanic. But without the PS: Mechanic skill, your character hasn't the first 
clue how to engage in the profession -- no experience with certification, 
paperwork, billing, work-order rotation, etc. Sure he can spin a mean wrench, 
but he's got no practical (employed) work experience. 
 
  Here's an example from the other end of the spectrum: the Unscrupulous 
Mechanic. He runs a great business, advertises, has a lot of customers (at 
least one time each <G>), etc. He has, _in our example_, a PS: Mechanic of 
14-, but he sucks as an actual mechanic, having a Mechanics skill of 8-. He's 
in it for the money, and copuld care less about quality. 
 
  Does everyone see how this works? The *other* skill (be it a KS or some 
other listed skill, like Mechanics, Paramedic, etc.) may be required to know 
how to perform a specific skill. The PS skill is required to hold a job in the 
related profession and be employable in that profession (a professional pilot, 
a cop, a doctor, a writer). The PS confers the knowledge of the "industry", if 
you will, not the training to get there. Having one skill does not preempt the 
necessaity to have the other. 
 
  Being a "licensed" to be a private investigator by the state does not confer 
the necessary skills to actually consudt investigations. 
 
  Of course there is the caveat that folks can declare that PS covers *all* 
necessary skills in their game, but that is not the way it is laid out in the 
Hero System rule book.  :) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo14.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo14.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.36 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:29:08 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Professional Skills 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< So what do I need to buy for my new character ? A professional comic book 
artist with a degree from the Art Institute, and former worker in a commercial 
art shop. >> 
 
  Do you want the suggested *detailed* write-up, or just the 25-point version? 
<LOL> 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:31:20 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:22 PM 4/14/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
>Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
>Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
> 
>> > Rat: take a deep breath and read what he wrote again. He's just saying 
>> > that some teachers don't know how to teach. 
>> 
>> So what?  Having the job does not mean one is qualified for it, it just 
>> means you passed whatever exam was handed to you.  An incompetant teacher 
>> will have something less than an 11- PS: Teacher skill. 
> 
> I'd have to disagree.  Being unable to teach means you have to be 
>better at "looking good".  They'd have the 11- PS to get and keep the job, 
>and nothing in "Teaching". 
 
   This would be the way to do it if there was a separate 
(non-Professional) Skill for Teaching.  While I support such an addition 
(good idea, Tim!), it's far from a done deal in the system. 
   For the system as it currently stands, the teacher without the PS would 
probably just need Familiarity with Acting (so it looks like he's doing a 
good job) and Forgery (to make his papers look like they're legitimate -- a 
stretch of a use for that Skill, but what else are you going to use?). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:33:42 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 07:08 PM 4/14/1998 EDT, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< I'd tend to argue that PS: Police Officer would cover all of those Skill 
>that a police officer would need no more than Familiarity with, like KS: 
Civil 
>Law and Weaponsmith, just as part of the "package."  If a full-fledged Skill 
>is needed, then that would probably need to be taken separately. >> 
> 
>  An interesting thought. However, based on the description of the PS in the 
>Hero System rules I would have to, of course, disagree. 
 
   I dunno.  Looking at the given example of Plumbing, I think it could be 
easily argued that PS: Plumbing gives Fam: Mechanics (albeit a somewhat 
limited form) as part of the "package." 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2 
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: The Average man... 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:35:44 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Oh, I wasn't meaning to imply anything about what the average person does. 
Just an interesting observation that sort of jumped to the forefront of my 
mind when I read that message about strength. 
 
Jason Goode 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From:	Tim R. Gilberg [SMTP:trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu] 
> Sent:	Tuesday, April 14, 1998 6:05 PM 
> To:	Goode, Jason 
> Cc:	Champions 
> Subject:	RE: The Average man... 
>  
>  
> > Interestingly, I can attest that weight training for only 1.5 hours a 
> week, 
> > will get you to that level in about 12 weeks. 
>  
> 	And that is a good deal more than what the "average" does. 
> Expecially when that average is the average adult, not just male. 
>  
>  
> 				-Tim Gilberg 
>  
> 		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo16.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo16.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.38 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:39:26 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Solider on 100 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< I think the problem is not our perceptions of the military, but in how to 
model them with the game mechanics. >> 
 
  In other words he's never been a soldier or a cop. ;D 
 
<< You are building "Joe Soldier", the average grunt, as a low-powered heroic- 
level charcter, not the normal person that he really is, putting far more 
points into what should be "passing familiarities" than are necessary.  This 
is the same issue that I 
have with the 200-point "street cop". >> 
 
  But if "Joe Soldier" or "Joe Cop" are, indeed, "heroic level" people in the 
real world why do you argue against portraying them that way in the Hero 
System? Why do you insist on declaring that all NPCs must be built on X points 
and no more? 
 
<< In other words, "Joe Soldier" is a 25-point normal with 15-25 points of 
extras and 15-25 points of corresponding disadvantages. >> 
 
  You do not acknoledge the hard work, training and development that goes into 
a professional soldier, much less a professional peace officer, doctor or any 
other profession. You *can* build professional NPCs on very few points, but 
you don't *have* to. 
 
<< When Joe Soldier decides to go career, or OCS, or an elite unit, he will 
start picking up a lot of stuff. >> 
 
  Joe Soldier re-enlists. Gains 25 EPs! <LOL> 
 
<< A very few might even qualify as full-blown heroic scale characters.>> 
 
  Depending on your definition of Heroic Level (75 Pt characters?) I would 
argue that most soldiers are already there. The average soldier can trash your 
average comci book artist in Champions. Oh, no... wait a second. I'm confusing 
my topics here... :D 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 17:40:15 -0700 
To: Champions Listserv <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: New Rules: Inactive Skills 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 06:36 PM 4/14/1998 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 
> OK.  I mentioned a proposal for some new rules for Inactive 
>Skills.  Here it is. 
   [Actual proposal snipped for space] 
> So, what does everyone think?  This could be a great way to add 
>color to a character, fitting the "I learned how to do that a long time 
>ago" thing so often seen in comics. 
 
   While I like the theory, I'm not sure I grasp the mechanics. 
   Suppose Captain Glory finally gets around to using his Archaeology 
degree, and goes out on a dig in England to uncover Camelot (something that 
happened in actual play, by the way).  How many points would he have needed 
for an 11- Roll beforehand?  How does he change the Skill from Active to 
Inactive?  Does the Roll change, or the cost? 
   Please clarify.  :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo access1.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access1.digex.net ip 205.197.245.192 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:40:34 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: More supplement reviews 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, David B Stallard wrote: 
 
> Here's a third list of supplements I'd appreciate getting reviews/opinions 
> on.  The twist here is that I already own some of these, but maybe have a 
> problem with them and want to see how they are viewed by the overall 
> audience. 
 
> * Watchers of the Dragon 
 
Watchers is a mixed bag in my opinion.  It is an interesting idea for a 
Enemies Book/Adventure, what with the 'novelized' description of Seeker's 
search for the story behind the Tourney of the Dragon, and I agree it 
should be done more often. 
 
The characters themselves range from the pretty cool (David LoPa--- uh, I 
mean Dr. Yin Wu) to the downright absurd (Maya).  The point totals on a 
lot of these guys is a killer, expect to see a lot of 350-400 point 
characters.  OTOH: There are scads of 250 to 275 pointers.   
 
There is a nice selection of characters from across the world, although 
the non-Asians in the book get only passing mention (with the exception of 
Nightwind).   
 
There is a nice selection of martial arts types too, although I disagree 
with the way in which some of these guys are written up (too many Damage 
Classes are handed out).   
 
Cutting back point totals would be pretty easy in all cases, so the 
numbers for the characters can be a bit misleading.   
 
My biggest complaint is not enough 'source' and too much 'book'.  Okay, so 
the story line is nice, but I would have liked to seen more on the SFX of 
Eastern Magic (rahter than a listing of spells and magic items) and more 
Oriental creatures would have been nice (Yin Wu *is* supposed to have a 
small army of monsters).  The name list in the back is nice, although the 
ninja-templates are pretty silly (the 900 point Disgustingly Powerful 
Ninja is rather funny).  OTOH: the 900 point ninja does give a lot of 
useful skill selections to pick from. 
 
All-in-all?  A decent book.  I do use it a bit, mainly as a refrence for 
my own characters. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:44:48 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> > Nah.  With that you could teach it.  Call it a new skill: Writing. 
> >I'm not sure if it should just be 11- or be based on INT or PRE. 
> 
>    I think it would probably be most representative to make Writing a 
> stat-based Professional Skill.  Let it variably be based on INT, PRE, or 
> EGO, depending on the writing style and lifestyle of the individual (in my 
> case, I think I'd go with EGO; my better stuff really comes out by force of 
> will, a phenomenon that's extremely hard to explain to someone who hasn't 
> experienced it). 
 
	Well, my point was that there was a lot more to getting published 
than being a good writer.  That's something totally separate -- a burst of 
creative composition.  "The spontaneous overflow of emotion recollected in 
tranquility," to quote Wordsworth. 
 
	And note that being able to write a good gaming book may be more a 
matter of PS: Writer than a Creative Skill: Writing.  Hmmm.  That's a good 
new category -- Creative Skill.  It could subsume Acting, add Musical 
Expression, etc. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2 
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 19:51:34 -0500 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com&> champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Skills and setting their levels (was Re: Knights) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>>Composers aren't as "visible" as actors or even directors, thus harder to 
>>remember.  John Williams has a career spanning several decades and well 
>>over 100 composing credits including '60's TV series "Lost In Space", "Land 
>>of the Giants", "Time Tunnel" and "Gilligan's Island"; a bit more recently, 
>>the movie soundtracks for "Fiddler On the Roof", "Poseidon Adventure", 
>>"Towering Inferno", "Earthquake", the "Jaws" films, the "Superman" movies, 
>>"Close Encounters", "E.T.", the whole "Star Wars" series (including those 
>>scheduled for release in 1999 through 2005), the "Raiders of the Lost Ark" 
>>series and dozens more. 
> 
>   You forgot that he also directed and conducted the Boston Pops Orchestra 
>for a few years (between Arthur Fiedler and Keith Lockhart). 
 
Whoever first mentioned him correctly identified Williams as both, but 
since I'm less familiar with him in that capacity I addressed only his 
career as a composer.  I could certainly be wrong here -- wouldn't be the 
first time today -- but I thought he'd be more familiar through that body 
of work than as a conductor. 
 
Damon 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2 
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net&> 
        Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Joe Solider on 100 points?!?!? 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:08:05 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
No, our problem is that you don't seem to understand that the root of this 
was a guy trying to model a *realistically accurate* typical soldier in the 
US Army.  Any *realistically accurate* human will be far more than a 25 
point character.  You also seem to fail to understand Joe Soldier means the 
typical soldier (specifically Infantry in this case) in the entire US Army, 
not a new recruit with 13 weeks of training (Basic and AIT are combined for 
an 11B.) 
 
On the military: it is very obvious that you either never spent any time in 
the military, or weren't paying any attention if you did.  For example, you 
said to another guy that airborne infantry is not infantry.  You couldn't be 
more wrong if you tried.  Let me tell you how you get airborne infantry. 
You take a recruit.  Send him to 11B school.  Then you send him to airborne 
school.  Ta-da!  The only difference between the two is how they get to the 
battlefield.  Paratroopers jump in from 800 feet, and gropos walk/ride. 
Rangers are not elite infantry.  They have a completely different mission. 
Etc, etc. 
 
If you don't know the topic, then fine.  Go with PS: Soldier.  It's your 
game.  Don't, however, argue how to model a *realistically accurate* 
soldier with someone who has spent time as both enlisted and as an officer. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From:	Stainless Steel Rat [SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net] 
> Sent:	Tuesday, April 14, 1998 6:45 PM 
> To:	Champions 
> Subject:	Re: Joe Solider on 100 points?!?!? 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> Goode, Jason writes: 
>  
> > You know, based on your perception of Joe Soldier, I really must ask 
> have 
> > you ever been in the military?  Strike that - I will just say that your 
> > perception of Joe soldier is amazingly and completely unlike mine, or 
> > anyone I every met, or soldiered with, or discussed the military with, 
> > etc. 
>  
> I think the problem is not our perceptions of the military, but in how to 
> model them with the game mechanics.  You are building "Joe Soldier", the 
> average grunt, as a low-powered heroic-level charcter, not the normal 
> person that he really is, putting far more points into what should be 
> "passing familiarities" than are necessary.  This is the same issue that I 
> have with the 200-point "street cop". 
>  
> Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
> PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
>                                     \  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2 
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:29:39 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 08:25 PM 4/14/98 EDT, GoldRushG wrote: 
>> Bottom line: you appear in many cases to be tossing aside the basic 
>> function of the Professional Skill, reducing it at best to the status of a 
>> complementary roll for some new Skill you create off-hand. 
> 
>  Here comes another clarification. 
> 
>  Professional Skill allows you to use your practical skills to engage in a 
>profession. Thus, having a Mechanics skill at 13- makes one a wonderful 
>mechanic. But without the PS: Mechanic skill, your character hasn't the first 
>clue how to engage in the profession -- no experience with certification, 
>paperwork, billing, work-order rotation, etc. Sure he can spin a mean wrench, 
>but he's got no practical (employed) work experience. 
 
Okay, before I go and stick my *other* foot in my mouth today, let me get 
something straight.  Did I not recently concede that licensing and 
certification was a Perk separate from the PS?  Are you not one of the 
people who convinced me of that?  Are you not now saying that certification 
is part of the PS? 
 
>  Here's an example from the other end of the spectrum: the Unscrupulous 
>Mechanic. He runs a great business, advertises, has a lot of customers (at 
>least one time each <G>), etc. He has, _in our example_, a PS: Mechanic of 
>14-, but he sucks as an actual mechanic, having a Mechanics skill of 8-. He's 
>in it for the money, and copuld care less about quality. 
 
He doesn't sound like a mechanic at all.  He sounds like a businessman (in 
the sense that he might have paid more attention to his Business Admin 
courses than his auto shop courses).  In the example above, *any* 
unscrupulous business owner who is good at advertising and generating a 
customer base could be subtituted.  That would mean that PS: Plumber, PS: 
Dentist and PS: Accountant are all interchangeable if the apply to 
unscrupulous businessmen.  Thus, none of these Skills are worth a damn 
except as a generic ability to do business; under the system you (and some 
others) describe, you seem to have to buy Plumbing (Background?), Dentistry 
(Background?), Accounting (INT?) in order to do the job...despite the fact 
that the rules pretty clearly state that the PS allows you to do the job. 
In some cases, buying a complementary KS is appropriate.  Nowhere is it 
even hinted that you should create new job-related Skills in order to 
perform the basic PS functions. 
 
What you are describing doesn't sound like PS: Mechanic to me, it sounds 
like Business Sense, presumably a Background Skill, which measures how good 
a businessman you are regardless of your chosen field. 
 
>  Does everyone see how this works? The *other* skill (be it a KS or some 
>other listed skill, like Mechanics, Paramedic, etc.) may be required to know 
>how to perform a specific skill. The PS skill is required to hold a job in 
the 
>related profession and be employable in that profession (a professional 
pilot, 
>a cop, a doctor, a writer). The PS confers the knowledge of the 
"industry", if 
>you will, not the training to get there. Having one skill does not preempt 
the 
>necessaity to have the other. 
 
If any special knowledge of the industry is needed, separate from the 
knowledge of how to do the job, you can buy KS: <The Industry>, allow the 
PS to cover the basic job functions, and not need to buy a separate, 
made-up Skill. 
 
>  Being a "licensed" to be a private investigator by the state does not 
confer 
>the necessary skills to actually consudt investigations. 
 
Again, I thought we'd established that you needed Perk: P.I. License, 
separate from PS: Private Investigator in order to be certified to do the 
job.  If that's true, all your statement above says is that the Perk 
doesn't confer any job-related skills.  I'm not suggesting it does, I'm 
saying the PS does.  Not every P.I. will be as good as every other, whis is 
why you can buy the PS at 11-, 12-, 13- or whatever suits your level of 
ability. 
 
>  Of course there is the caveat that folks can declare that PS covers *all* 
>necessary skills in their game, but that is not the way it is laid out in the 
>Hero System rule book.  :) 
 
Agreed.  If that *were* the way it was laid out, each individual PS would 
be all-inclusive within its field and you might never need a complementary 
Skill roll. 
However, the Hero System rule book does explicitly state "Whereas Knowledge 
Skills give the character knowledge of how or why something works, a 
Professional Skill gives the character the ability to do it...a person with 
PS: Plumbing might not understand the intricacies of water pressure and 
water flow friction, but he could fix a broken pipe."  It doesn't say the 
Professional Plumber will know how to advertise.  It doesn't say he'll know 
how to select an advantageous location for his shop.  It doesn't say he 
knows how to competitively price his services.  It says he can fix a broken 
pipe. 
 
Now, it looks to me that what you are saying about certifications and 
Professional Skils today is different from what you said yesterday or the 
day before.  It also appears to me that you, Tim and a handful of others 
are blatantly ignoring the description of PS, which I've quoted in part 
above.  I have already been a flaming idiot today, though, and make 
allowance for the possibility that there is something I'm not seeing here. 
Please educate me.  Show me something in the rules that (a) indicates that 
a PS does *not* cover basic job functions for any PS, and (b) a suggestion 
that new Skills will need to be created by GMs to cover these inexplicable 
omissions that have managed to persist through every edition of the Hero 
rules to date. 
 
Damon 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from dpawtows@access.digex.net server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Re: Equipment 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:35:24 -0400 (EDT) 
Organization: VTSFFC 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> gravity. The question is, outside of a Supers campaign why would this 
> matter? Am I wrong in thinking that it would be okay and not unbalancing 
> to just say "fine your ship has artifical gravity"? 
 
   Players can e endlessly creative.  If you give them something like 
gravity control for free, you may then have problems when the pirate  
boarding party that was supposed to be a key to your plot becoming 
helpless when a PC engineer glues them to the deck with ten G's. 
Or somebody else rigs up a tractor beam/grave-cannon/hovercraft/etc 
out of the ability that the GM didn't anticipate. 
  Heck, a major peeve of mine with "Star Trek" is that the Federation 
completely overlooks a lot of the *really* neat things one could do 
with the gadgets they display (curiously enough, the things they overlook 
tens to be the things that would drive the SFX budget thru the roof :). 
 
                             Daniel Pawtowski 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:36:38 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Skills and setting their levels (was Re: Knights) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 17 
 
At 07:51 PM 4/14/1998 -0500, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote: 
>>>Composers aren't as "visible" as actors or even directors, thus harder to 
>>>remember.  John Williams has a career spanning several decades and well 
>>>over 100 composing credits including '60's TV series "Lost In Space", "Land 
>>>of the Giants", "Time Tunnel" and "Gilligan's Island"; a bit more recently, 
>>>the movie soundtracks for "Fiddler On the Roof", "Poseidon Adventure", 
>>>"Towering Inferno", "Earthquake", the "Jaws" films, the "Superman" movies, 
>>>"Close Encounters", "E.T.", the whole "Star Wars" series (including those 
>>>scheduled for release in 1999 through 2005), the "Raiders of the Lost Ark" 
>>>series and dozens more. 
>> 
>>   You forgot that he also directed and conducted the Boston Pops Orchestra 
>>for a few years (between Arthur Fiedler and Keith Lockhart). 
> 
>Whoever first mentioned him correctly identified Williams as both, but 
>since I'm less familiar with him in that capacity I addressed only his 
>career as a composer.  I could certainly be wrong here -- wouldn't be the 
>first time today -- but I thought he'd be more familiar through that body 
>of work than as a conductor. 
 
   It depends on what circle of artistic endeavor you're more familiar with 
-- movie and TV scores, or PBS.  :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo attach1.rocketmail.com from daleaward@rocketmail.com server @attach1.rocketmail.com ip 205.180.57.81 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:38:21 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Dale Ward <daleaward@rocketmail.com> 
Subject: Re: Body for the average man 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
---Brian Wong  wrote: 
> 
> 	After all, if body=mass, overweight people would be nigh 
> unstoppable. :) 
> 
 
     Actually... we are. 
 
     So there.  NYAH! 
 
=== 
Dale A. Ward 
($.02 Paid In Full) 
 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from dpawtows@access.digex.net server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:43:30 -0400 (EDT) 
Organization: VTSFFC 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
AverageMan:   
   75% Damage Reduction, +20 PD/ED, Only vs 'unusuall' damage.  
 
  Averageman is immune to the mighty blasts of Dr. Destroyer, but has to 
be very careful when crossing the street....... 
 
                      Daniel "Hey you! LOOK OUT FOR THAT BUS!!" Pawtowski 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-SMTP: helo pentagon.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@pentagon.io.com ip 199.170.88.5 
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:45:09 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> > > No.  Being a professional teacher is not the same as knowing how to teach 
> > > something to someone.  Anyone whose been to college knows this. 
> > 
> > I do not say this often: you are utterly and completely wrong.  "PS: 
> > Teacher" is the skill to teach, just as "PS: Auto Mechanic" is the skill to 
> > fix a car, 
>  
> 	Nope.  That last is Mechanics, actually.  You'd need both skills. 
> The PS will get you by with some minor skills. 
 
The 'Mechanic' skill is posessed by any back-yard auto mechanic - my 
father, for instance, would probably have it at a decent level.  It covers 
fixing cars, and that's it. 
 
PS: Mechanic would cover: ordering parts from NAPA, operating the cash 
register, probably operating some of the 'professional-level' machinery, 
how to handle warranty stuff, how to do auto & emissions inspections, etc. 
 
So yeah, they'd be two different skills, and any good professional 
mechanic is going to have both. 
 
J 
 
"One equal temper of heroic hearts,              http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will              jeffj@io.com 
 To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."    - Tennyson, "Ulysses" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:48:13 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions Listserv <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: New Rules: Inactive Skills 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
>    While I like the theory, I'm not sure I grasp the mechanics. 
 
	I'll try to explain. 
 
>    Suppose Captain Glory finally gets around to using his Archaeology 
> degree, and goes out on a dig in England to uncover Camelot (something that 
> happened in actual play, by the way).  How many points would he have needed 
> for an 11- Roll beforehand?  How does he change the Skill from Active to 
> Inactive?  Does the Roll change, or the cost? 
 
	A skill taken as Inactive, for a starting character, is _FREE_. 
However, as soon as it is attempted to be used in any way regularly 
(beyond the one-time plot point, "Gee, I remember a way out of this mess 
from my days as a Rutabega Salesman!") it requires the expenditure of XP 
to get it to whatever level it was bought at.  This could get a character 
in XP trouble quick, as they will never be able to spend it freely if 
they're always buying off Inactive Skills. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-SMTP: helo pentagon.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@pentagon.io.com ip 199.170.88.5 
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:53:35 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
> << My house rules also include the idea the if the Proffesional skill has 
> another applicable skill than the player must have that skill. For example: 
>  
>     Player purchases PS: Computer Programmer. In this case the PS does NOT 
> help the player perform the skill, for that they need Computer Programing. 
> However, the skill does help the player know where to look for jobs, the names 
> of other computer programmers, and other such trivialities. >> 
>  
>   Sounds good to me. In fact, that's the way I see PS also.  ;) 
 
Hey, wow, my area.  This is even better than 'Mechanic' and 'PS: Mechanic' 
that I just commented on. 
 
Computer Programming: Hacking code.  Lots of people have this.  I got it 
   in college.  What I /didn't/ have when I entered the workforce was: 
 
PS: Computer Programmer, which covers a lot of the 'procedural' stuff - in 
my case, how to use source control and bug tracking software, some 
familiarity with how the company's design process works, how the 
departments interact with each other, etc. 
 
Arguably, that skill should be PS: Computer Programmer for (Company), but 
that might be getting a bit /too/ specific. 
 
J 
 
"One equal temper of heroic hearts,              http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will              jeffj@io.com 
 To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."    - Tennyson, "Ulysses" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-SMTP: helo pentagon.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@pentagon.io.com ip 199.170.88.5 
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:10:05 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 1 
 
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote: 
 
> Okay, before I go and stick my *other* foot in my mouth today, let me get 
> something straight.  Did I not recently concede that licensing and 
> certification was a Perk separate from the PS?  Are you not one of the 
> people who convinced me of that?  Are you not now saying that certification 
> is part of the PS? 
 
Certification is a perk separate from the PS. 
Knowing how to /get/ certification is part of the PS. 
See the difference? 
 
<unscrupulous mechanic snipped> 
 
> He doesn't sound like a mechanic at all.  He sounds like a businessman 
<snip> 
> That would mean that PS: Plumber, PS: 
> Dentist and PS: Accountant are all interchangeable if the apply to 
> unscrupulous businessmen.   
 
Not at all.  Someone with PS: (Unscrupulous) Plumber would have no idea 
how to fill out a tax form for a certain investment, and someone with PS: 
(Unscrupulous) Dentist wouldn't know the first thing about where to order 
the cheapest pipes, what kind of tools he needs, etc. 
 
> Nowhere is it 
> even hinted that you should create new job-related Skills in order to 
> perform the basic PS functions. 
 
I generally use this rule of thumb: if the skill i or can have a 
significant impact on the game, it deserves to have more detail.  Thus, 
Mechanic gets split off from PS: Mechanic, but I'd probably leave PS: 
Plumber as one skill. 
 
Unless I were running 'Bathroom HERO', that is. 
 
J  
 
"One equal temper of heroic hearts,              http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will              jeffj@io.com 
 To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."    - Tennyson, "Ulysses" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-SMTP: helo pentagon.io.com from traveler@io.com server traveler@pentagon.io.com ip 199.170.88.5 
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: traveler owned process doing -bs 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:14:18 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com> 
To: JASON SULLIVAN <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: 0 END DI 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 2 
 
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, JASON SULLIVAN wrote: 
 
> Anyone here know the offial answer to this problem? 
> If DI is bought 0 END, do you need to pay the END cost of the STR it grants? 
 
Yes.   
 
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver --------- 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-SMTP: helo pentagon.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@pentagon.io.com ip 199.170.88.5 
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:17:12 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 3 
 
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
>    This would be the way to do it if there was a separate 
> (non-Professional) Skill for Teaching.  While I support such an addition 
> (good idea, Tim!), it's far from a done deal in the system. 
>    For the system as it currently stands, the teacher without the PS would 
> probably just need Familiarity with Acting (so it looks like he's doing a 
> good job) and Forgery (to make his papers look like they're legitimate -- a 
> stretch of a use for that Skill, but what else are you going to use?). 
 
How about PS: Lousy Teacher?  Such a PS would cover all the paperwork, 
administrative stuff, knowledge of the school districts, etc - but it 
would impart no actual ability to teach. 
 
Or, this would be a good place to use PS: Teacher and KS: Teaching - the 
KS would be possessed by people who could impart knowledge to their 
students well, and the PS by people who were good at the other aspects of 
a teaching career. 
 
J 
 
"One equal temper of heroic hearts,              http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will              jeffj@io.com 
 To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."    - Tennyson, "Ulysses" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:24:37 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 4 
 
 
>    This would be the way to do it if there was a separate 
> (non-Professional) Skill for Teaching.  While I support such an addition 
> (good idea, Tim!), it's far from a done deal in the system. 
 
	So we need to add an entry to the skill section called "Skill"as a 
catch all, as using PS for the catch-all is a kludge. 
 
	As is, Heromaker supports the addition of new skills, and I've 
always allowed it in my campaign. 
 
>    For the system as it currently stands, the teacher without the PS would 
> probably just need Familiarity with Acting (so it looks like he's doing a 
> good job) and Forgery (to make his papers look like they're legitimate -- a 
> stretch of a use for that Skill, but what else are you going to use?). 
 
	Good points.  This would be a case of a great place for a new 
skill.  Teaching is a valuable skill -- for heroes as well.  How else are 
you gonna train effectively your sidekick.  Otherwise you'll run into all 
sort of problems.  (Well, you'll run into problems anyway, but that's not 
important.) 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:40:26 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 5 
 
 
> He doesn't sound like a mechanic at all.  He sounds like a businessman (in 
> the sense that he might have paid more attention to his Business Admin 
> courses than his auto shop courses).  In the example above, *any* 
> unscrupulous business owner who is good at advertising and generating a 
> customer base could be subtituted.  That would mean that PS: Plumber, PS: 
> Dentist and PS: Accountant are all interchangeable if the apply to 
> unscrupulous businessmen.  Thus, none of these Skills are worth a damn 
 
	Untrue.  Mechanic is a skill specifically noted as separate from a 
PS, however.  Certain others, like acting and computer programming, are 
the same way.  Certain other professions have enough of a difference from 
being skilled in the aspects of the job and what is actually done -- 
Singing, Writing, and Teaching are good examples.  Also, this would 
support a parallel provided by acting's treatment in the rules. 
 
	Some, like Plumber, are covered fine by the PS.  I'd say food 
service, bartending, accounting, banking, carpentry, bee keeping, (add 
your own, I'm sure you can think of some) would work fine with only the 
PS, though some KSs would help a lot.  For example, most bar tenders have 
PS: Bartender.  Some have a KS: Mixed Drinks, but not all -- from my 
experience. 
 
> except as a generic ability to do business; under the system you (and some 
> others) describe, you seem to have to buy Plumbing (Background?), Dentistry 
> (Background?), Accounting (INT?) in order to do the job...despite the fact 
> that the rules pretty clearly state that the PS allows you to do the job. 
 
	Allows you to perform basic activities of the job, different from 
skillfully performing.  Some work fine, but Dentestry would require at 
least a SS: Dentestry and (IMC) a Dental Work Dex-based skill. 
 
> In some cases, buying a complementary KS is appropriate.  Nowhere is it 
> even hinted that you should create new job-related Skills in order to 
> perform the basic PS functions. 
 
	Not job related skill per se, but skills that may or may not be 
used by someone with that job.  A skill, Writer, would be used by 
PS:Novelist, PS: Journalist, PS: Speechwriter, etc.  Look at the example 
of Acting vs PS: Actor. 
 
> What you are describing doesn't sound like PS: Mechanic to me, it sounds 
> like Business Sense, presumably a Background Skill, which measures how good 
> a businessman you are regardless of your chosen field. 
 
	More to it than that, as every type of business is different.  The 
PS allows you to operate within the field and, in some cases, perform your 
work duties. 
 
> If any special knowledge of the industry is needed, separate from the 
> knowledge of how to do the job, you can buy KS: <The Industry>, allow the 
> PS to cover the basic job functions, and not need to buy a separate, 
> made-up Skill. 
 
	But the PS by nature will include some basic knowledge of the 
industry -- enough to work within it, anyways.  Why are you so against 
making new skills -- it's needed for any game system, IMO, and Champions 
allows about the most leeway. 
 
> Again, I thought we'd established that you needed Perk: P.I. License, 
> separate from PS: Private Investigator in order to be certified to do the 
> job.  If that's true, all your statement above says is that the Perk 
> doesn't confer any job-related skills.  I'm not suggesting it does, I'm 
> saying the PS does.  Not every P.I. will be as good as every other, whis is 
> why you can buy the PS at 11-, 12-, 13- or whatever suits your level of 
> ability. 
 
	But much of your PI work will be covered by Deduction and 
Investigation.  (The last is a book skill, right?  Or was it from Dark 
Champs.)  Also add Concealment and Shadowing.  These skills will not come 
with the PS.  The PS will allow you to set up shop, find customers, and do 
the _basic_ parts of the above tasks. 
 
> However, the Hero System rule book does explicitly state "Whereas Knowledge 
> Skills give the character knowledge of how or why something works, a 
> Professional Skill gives the character the ability to do it...a person with 
> PS: Plumbing might not understand the intricacies of water pressure and 
> water flow friction, but he could fix a broken pipe."  It doesn't say the 
> Professional Plumber will know how to advertise.  It doesn't say he'll know 
> how to select an advantageous location for his shop.  It doesn't say he 
> knows how to competitively price his services.  It says he can fix a broken 
> pipe. 
 
	However, it also states it will allow working in the field, per 
se.  With the examples of professions with separate (BBB) skills, we have 
a precident for certain professions needing more than the PS. 
 
> Please educate me.  Show me something in the rules that (a) indicates that 
> a PS does *not* cover basic job functions for any PS, and (b) a suggestion 
> that new Skills will need to be created by GMs to cover these inexplicable 
> omissions that have managed to persist through every edition of the Hero 
> rules to date. 
 
	Um.  Skills have been added with every edition as well in almost 
every suppliment.  Some are obviously not SS, KS, or PS -- these are just 
plain new skills. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:44:22 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 6 
 
 
> How about PS: Lousy Teacher?  Such a PS would cover all the paperwork, 
> administrative stuff, knowledge of the school districts, etc - but it 
> would impart no actual ability to teach. 
> 
> Or, this would be a good place to use PS: Teacher and KS: Teaching - the 
> KS would be possessed by people who could impart knowledge to their 
> students well, and the PS by people who were good at the other aspects of 
> a teaching career. 
 
	But a KS doesn't give one ability, it gives one knowledge.  And 
the study of teaching (Pedantics?) is a knowledge all of its own.  This is 
a place for a new PRE-based skill, based off of Acting, Conversation, 
Oratory, etc. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2 
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Sakura <jeffj@io.com&> Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Proffesional Skills x2 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:49:30 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 7 
 
I could live with that, though because I run a median detailed campaign, I'd 
want a few other skills and attributes that seemed to be possessed by every 
good teacher that I've experienced. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From:	Sakura [SMTP:jeffj@io.com] 
> Sent:	Tuesday, April 14, 1998 10:17 PM 
> To:	Champions Mailing List 
> Subject:	Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
>  
> On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> >  
> >    This would be the way to do it if there was a separate 
> > (non-Professional) Skill for Teaching.  While I support such an addition 
> > (good idea, Tim!), it's far from a done deal in the system. 
> >    For the system as it currently stands, the teacher without the PS 
> would 
> > probably just need Familiarity with Acting (so it looks like he's doing 
> a 
> > good job) and Forgery (to make his papers look like they're legitimate 
> -- a 
> > stretch of a use for that Skill, but what else are you going to use?). 
>  
> How about PS: Lousy Teacher?  Such a PS would cover all the paperwork, 
> administrative stuff, knowledge of the school districts, etc - but it 
> would impart no actual ability to teach. 
>  
> Or, this would be a good place to use PS: Teacher and KS: Teaching - the 
> KS would be possessed by people who could impart knowledge to their 
> students well, and the PS by people who were good at the other aspects of 
> a teaching career. 
>  
> J 
>  
> "One equal temper of heroic hearts,              http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
>  Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will              jeffj@io.com 
>  To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."    - Tennyson, "Ulysses" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2 
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Sakura <jeffj@io.com&> Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: The Average man... 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:57:01 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 8 
 
Good rule. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From:	Sakura [SMTP:jeffj@io.com] 
> Sent:	Tuesday, April 14, 1998 10:10 PM 
> To:	Champions Mailing List 
> Subject:	Re: The Average man... 
>  
>  
> I generally use this rule of thumb: if the skill i or can have a 
> significant impact on the game, it deserves to have more detail.  Thus, 
> Mechanic gets split off from PS: Mechanic, but I'd probably leave PS: 
> Plumber as one skill. 
>  
> Unless I were running 'Bathroom HERO', that is. 
>  
> J  
>  
> "One equal temper of heroic hearts,              http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
>  Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will              jeffj@io.com 
>  To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."    - Tennyson, "Ulysses" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo jcs1.jcstate.edu from ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu server @jcs1.jcstate.edu ip 204.117.72.52 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 21:58:49 -0500 (EST) 
From: JASON SULLIVAN <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: 0 END DI 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@sysabend.org" 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Anyone here know the offial answer to this problem? 
If DI is bought 0 END, do you need to pay the END cost of the STR it grants? 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2 
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:11:29 -0500 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 10 
 
><unscrupulous mechanic snipped> 
> 
>> He doesn't sound like a mechanic at all.  He sounds like a businessman 
><snip> 
>> That would mean that PS: Plumber, PS: 
>> Dentist and PS: Accountant are all interchangeable if the apply to 
>> unscrupulous businessmen.   
> 
>Not at all.  Someone with PS: (Unscrupulous) Plumber would have no idea 
>how to fill out a tax form for a certain investment, and someone with PS: 
>(Unscrupulous) Dentist wouldn't know the first thing about where to order 
>the cheapest pipes, what kind of tools he needs, etc. 
 
Tax forms and parts procurement weren't part of Mark's unscrupulous example: 
"He runs a great business, advertises, has a lot of customers (at least one 
time each <G>), etc. " 
 
This is not PS: Mechanic (or Plumber or Dentist or Accountant); it's PS: 
Entrepreneur. 
 
>> Nowhere is it 
>> even hinted that you should create new job-related Skills in order to 
>> perform the basic PS functions. 
> 
>I generally use this rule of thumb: if the skill i or can have a 
>significant impact on the game, it deserves to have more detail.  Thus, 
>Mechanic gets split off from PS: Mechanic, but I'd probably leave PS: 
>Plumber as one skill. 
 
I appreciate your input here, but it only describes your house rules. 
What's at issue isn't how useful general mechanical ability is relative to 
plumbing expertise, but whether or not a standard PS, as written, covers 
the basic job-related tasks of its profession.  I contend that it does, and 
that this is clearly stated in the rules under the description of PS. 
Several other people have stated that PS isn't sufficient to enable a 
character to do the basic job tasks.  A few people have simply tried to 
state this as obvious fact; most people have tried to give some kind of 
rationale, or at least examples of their viewpoint, but so far I haven't 
any of these people back up their position with anything that's actually 
*in* the rules. 
 
Damon 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2 
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Proffesional Skills x2 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:14:18 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 9 
 
Hmm...good point.  I don't know "how to teach", nor have I studied 
education.  I just know that people tell me that I teach well.  I guess a KS 
wouldn't do it for a realistic level of detail.  
 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From:	Tim R. Gilberg [SMTP:trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu] 
> Sent:	Tuesday, April 14, 1998 10:44 PM 
> To:	Goode, Jason 
> Cc:	Champions Mailing List 
> Subject:	Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
>  
>  
> > How about PS: Lousy Teacher?  Such a PS would cover all the paperwork, 
> > administrative stuff, knowledge of the school districts, etc - but it 
> > would impart no actual ability to teach. 
> > 
> > Or, this would be a good place to use PS: Teacher and KS: Teaching - the 
> > KS would be possessed by people who could impart knowledge to their 
> > students well, and the PS by people who were good at the other aspects 
> of 
> > a teaching career. 
>  
> 	But a KS doesn't give one ability, it gives one knowledge.  And 
> the study of teaching (Pedantics?) is a knowledge all of its own.  This is 
> a place for a new PRE-based skill, based off of Acting, Conversation, 
> Oratory, etc. 
>  
>  
>  
> 				-Tim Gilberg 
>  
> 		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail.interhop.net from jprins@interhop.net server root@mail.interhop.net ip 204.50.138.29 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:37:28 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Tough? Lemme tell you about tough... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 12 
 
>  Depending on your definition of Heroic Level (75 Pt characters?) I would 
>argue that most soldiers are already there. The average soldier can trash your 
>average comci book artist in Champions. Oh, no... wait a second. I'm confusing 
>my topics here... :D 
 
Maybe, but Joe Lumberjack or Joe Trapper would clean up on either of them. 
Wilderness folk are tough, oy vey...;-). For example, my cousin, who skipped 
a chainsaw off a tree, into her leg, through chainmail pants. Way cool 
scar...That's right, HER. Nowadays she works for the Ministry of the 
Environment, directing firefighting efforts in the summer, and animal 
control in the winter...did I mention the packs of wild dogs? Makes soldier 
boys look sissy by comparison - and she tells me stories about the tough 
people she's met :-) :-) :-). 
 
Oh, and not all comic book artists are pushovers. Fred Perry (Gold Digger) 
in particular was a soldier before pursuing his current career... 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail.interhop.net from jprins@interhop.net server root@mail.interhop.net ip 204.50.138.29 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:37:31 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: More supplement reviews 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 13 
 
>> * Watchers of the Dragon 
> 
>Watchers is a mixed bag in my opinion.  It is an interesting idea for a 
>Enemies Book/Adventure, what with the 'novelized' description of Seeker's 
>search for the story behind the Tourney of the Dragon, and I agree it 
>should be done more often. 
> 
>The characters themselves range from the pretty cool (David LoPa--- uh, I 
>mean Dr. Yin Wu) to the downright absurd (Maya).  The point totals on a 
>lot of these guys is a killer, expect to see a lot of 350-400 point 
>characters.  OTOH: There are scads of 250 to 275 pointers.   
 
Agreed. WotD presented a 'mixed bag' of characters - from the barely more 
than starting PC all the way to what a highly experienced 'super' martial 
artist would be. 
 
>There is a nice selection of characters from across the world, although 
>the non-Asians in the book get only passing mention (with the exception of 
>Nightwind).   
 
Fleur De Lis; but yeah, you're right. But any martial arts book is likely to 
be mostly Asian (genre). A fencer would have been nice... 
 
Oh, who else wants to see a full write up of all of the Tiger Squad? 
 
>There is a nice selection of martial arts types too, although I disagree 
>with the way in which some of these guys are written up (too many Damage 
>Classes are handed out).   
 
Mmmm...we're back in the 'Martial Artist punches out Brick' thread again, 
aren't we? 
 
>My biggest complaint is not enough 'source' and too much 'book'.  Okay, so 
>the story line is nice, but I would have liked to seen more on the SFX of 
>Eastern Magic (rahter than a listing of spells and magic items) and more 
>Oriental creatures would have been nice (Yin Wu *is* supposed to have a 
>small army of monsters).  The name list in the back is nice, although the 
>ninja-templates are pretty silly (the 900 point Disgustingly Powerful 
>Ninja is rather funny).  OTOH: the 900 point ninja does give a lot of 
>useful skill selections to pick from. 
 
Kinda cries out for a whole book devoted to say, Asia, for Champions, 
doesn't it? You could throw the Tiger Squad in, discuss Bhuddism, Taoism, 
Zen, Shinto, Confucianism, etc... 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo iquest3.iquest.net from bastet@iquest.net server @iquest3.iquest.net ip 209.43.20.203 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:13:50 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7 
To: John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Tough? Lemme tell you about tough... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 14 
 
>  
> Oh, and not all comic book artists are pushovers. Fred Perry (Gold Digger) 
> in particular was a soldier before pursuing his current career... 
 
And just let your average soldier try to trash mild mannered Steve Rogers, 
from back in the days when Capt. America's secret ID was a comic book 
artist.;) 
 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo access1.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access1.digex.net ip 205.197.245.192 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 00:16:57 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: More supplement reviews 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 15 
 
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
> >> * Watchers of the Dragon 
 
> >The characters themselves range from the pretty cool (David LoPa--- uh, I 
> >mean Dr. Yin Wu) to the downright absurd (Maya).  The point totals on a 
> >lot of these guys is a killer, expect to see a lot of 350-400 point 
> >characters.  OTOH: There are scads of 250 to 275 pointers.   
>  
> Agreed. WotD presented a 'mixed bag' of characters - from the barely more 
> than starting PC all the way to what a highly experienced 'super' martial 
> artist would be. 
 
Yeah, but some of them 'super' martial artists are way of the scale (there 
are two 800+ point characters in the book) 
  
> >There is a nice selection of characters from across the world, although 
> >the non-Asians in the book get only passing mention (with the exception of 
> >Nightwind).   
>  
> Fleur De Lis; but yeah, you're right. But any martial arts book is likely to 
> be mostly Asian (genre). A fencer would have been nice... 
 
I should have been more clear.  Nightwind and Seeker actually talk, thus 
you get a bit of insight into his character.  Fleur de Lis and co. just 
get mentioned in passing as part of a news article. 
  
> Oh, who else wants to see a full write up of all of the Tiger Squad? 
 
Hmmm... sure.  But isn't that like... 35 people?   
 
Heh... love Gossamer Storm's artwork... looks like the artist used Minka 
as a figure model. 
  
> >There is a nice selection of martial arts types too, although I disagree 
> >with the way in which some of these guys are written up (too many Damage 
> >Classes are handed out).   
>  
> Mmmm...we're back in the 'Martial Artist punches out Brick' thread again, 
> aren't we? 
 
Nope.  I just think that Damage Classes were handed out like candy in the 
book.   
  
> Kinda cries out for a whole book devoted to say, Asia, for Champions, 
> doesn't it? You could throw the Tiger Squad in, discuss Bhuddism, Taoism, 
> Zen, Shinto, Confucianism, etc... 
 
Hmmm... I diubt it would ever get written.  Of course, my Wuxia Hero 
proposal was going to include some of these ideas. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2 
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:27:45 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 16 
 
>	Untrue.  Mechanic is a skill specifically noted as separate from a 
>PS, however.  Certain others, like acting and computer programming, are 
>the same way.  Certain other professions have enough of a difference from 
>being skilled in the aspects of the job and what is actually done -- 
>Singing, Writing, and Teaching are good examples.  Also, this would 
>support a parallel provided by acting's treatment in the rules. 
 
I could argue that Computer Programming, Electronics and Mechanics are all 
Skills that a person can acquire through a hobby; abilities in these areas 
does not necessarily require any professional training.  PS: Computer 
Programmer must include Computer Progamming as a job-related ability, 
because you can't do the job without it, and the rules say a PS will let 
you do the job.  QED.  You *can* still give a character both Skills, but by 
my interpretation the PS would represent programming ability gained from 
formal education or on-the-job training (COBOL and Natural, in my case) and 
the separate Computer Programming Skill would represent programming skills 
picked out on my own, irrespective of the job (BASIC and FORTRAN, both 
learned years before I was hired as a programmer). 
 
I don't think what I'm saying here is substantially different from what 
Sakura said about back-yard mechanics vs. professional auto-shop mechanics. 
 The backyard mechanic learned auto mechanics as a hobby; if he goes on to 
be a professional auto mechanic, he'll have access to tools and techniques 
he didn't before, and thus be able to repair systems on the car he couldn't 
before.  He will not forget his hobby-based learning, though, and if that 
experience tells him that pouring Coke on a battery is a good way to clean 
the terminals, or that there's a "little trick" to doing a particular bit 
of routine maintenance, he'll still remember how to do that.  The mechanic 
described here would have both Skills. 
 
Dentistry is not practiced as a hobby.  Your ability to perform dental work 
is part of PS: Dentistry, thus there is no need for a separate Dentistry 
Skill to stand alongside Electronics and Mechanics. 
 
>	Some, like Plumber, are covered fine by the PS.  I'd say food 
>service, bartending, accounting, banking, carpentry, bee keeping, (add 
>your own, I'm sure you can think of some) would work fine with only the 
>PS, though some KSs would help a lot.  For example, most bar tenders have 
>PS: Bartender.  Some have a KS: Mixed Drinks, but not all -- from my 
>experience. 
 
I agree with this paragraph, though I'm a bit surprised you didn't require 
SCI: Mathematics for the accountant.  It seems consistent with the other 
things you seem to feel are necessary as "support Skills". 
 
>> except as a generic ability to do business; under the system you (and some 
>> others) describe, you seem to have to buy Plumbing (Background?), Dentistry 
>> (Background?), Accounting (INT?) in order to do the job...despite the fact 
>> that the rules pretty clearly state that the PS allows you to do the job. 
> 
>	Allows you to perform basic activities of the job, different from 
>skillfully performing.  Some work fine, but Dentestry would require at 
>least a SS: Dentestry and (IMC) a Dental Work Dex-based skill. 
 
Your skill level at a given job should be primarily determined by your 
Skill Roll in that Skill, not by how many related Skills you can tack onto 
it.  I say that Dr. Tooth (PS: Dentist 13-) is a better dentist than Dr. 
Gum (PS: Dentist 11-).  You say (I think) that Dr. Tooth is better at 
office procedure and business-related aspects of his practice, but that the 
doctors' levels of medical expertise cannot be measured except in terms of 
a Science and a [presently] non-existent DEX-based Skill. 
 
>	Not job related skill per se, but skills that may or may not be 
>used by someone with that job.  A skill, Writer, would be used by 
>PS:Novelist, PS: Journalist, PS: Speechwriter, etc.  Look at the example 
>of Acting vs PS: Actor. 
 
PS: Writer, SFX Journalist (or Speechwriter or Novelist) 
 
Yes, I am well aware that these are different disciplines, but not so 
different they can't be lumped together under the umbrella of Writer. 
There's only one Animal Handler Skill, but you can define it as applicable 
to almost any species of animal. 
 
>> What you are describing doesn't sound like PS: Mechanic to me, it sounds 
>> like Business Sense, presumably a Background Skill, which measures how good 
>> a businessman you are regardless of your chosen field. 
> 
>	More to it than that, as every type of business is different.  The 
>PS allows you to operate within the field and, in some cases, perform your 
>work duties. 
 
Again, take PS: Entrepreneur and define it as applicable to your particular 
business, if all it's going to cover is the business-related aspects of 
your profession. 
 
>> If any special knowledge of the industry is needed, separate from the 
>> knowledge of how to do the job, you can buy KS: <The Industry>, allow the 
>> PS to cover the basic job functions, and not need to buy a separate, 
>> made-up Skill. 
> 
>	But the PS by nature will include some basic knowledge of the 
>industry -- enough to work within it, anyways.  Why are you so against 
>making new skills -- it's needed for any game system, IMO, and Champions 
>allows about the most leeway. 
 
I did not suggest that the PS didn't include basic industry knowledge. 
Quite the opposite.  I merely suggested that if you were dealing with an 
industry that for some reason required more detailed knowledge than a 
typical profession, this was best handled by taking a KS to cover it. 
 
I am not against the introduction of new Skills (or Powers or any other 
options) if there's truly a gap that needs to be filled.  I'm against the 
rampant proliferation of a separate Skill for every conceivable profession, 
sport, and handicraft.  The Hero System is meant to be as generic as 
possible at the base level.  You can create a wide variety of things using 
the existing building blocks.  New blocks shouldn't be added unless there's 
no [easy or sensible] way of modeling the desired ability already.  You 
don't need a rectangular block if two squares will do the job just as well.   
 
>> Again, I thought we'd established that you needed Perk: P.I. License, 
>> separate from PS: Private Investigator in order to be certified to do the 
>> job.  If that's true, all your statement above says is that the Perk 
>> doesn't confer any job-related skills.  I'm not suggesting it does, I'm 
>> saying the PS does.  Not every P.I. will be as good as every other, whis is 
>> why you can buy the PS at 11-, 12-, 13- or whatever suits your level of 
>> ability. 
> 
>	But much of your PI work will be covered by Deduction and 
>Investigation.  (The last is a book skill, right?  Or was it from Dark 
>Champs.)  Also add Concealment and Shadowing.  These skills will not come 
>with the PS.  The PS will allow you to set up shop, find customers, and do 
>the _basic_ parts of the above tasks. 
 
Setting up shop and finding customers is related strictly to 
business-related aspects that *any* entrepreneur will have to deal with.  I 
do not need the ability to deal with those things if I work as an employee, 
only if I'm the boss.  For example, John Reid runs the Silver Bullet 
Detective Agency.  John must pay all the bills, including his employee's 
salaries, drum up new business, etc. so he rarely handles cases himself, 
though he has the skills to do so.   He has four investigators on his 
payroll.  They don't do any of this, they just handle the Concealment, 
Shadowing, Deduction and, if you like, Investigation.  My way, all five men 
(sorry, persons) get PS: Private Investigator and John gets PS: 
Entrepreneur as well.  Your way, John gets PS: P.I. and the employees 
get...what?  PS: P.I. with a Limitation?  Concealment, Shadowing and 
Deduction, plus the license Perk, but no PS Skill?  How can they not have 
the PS Skill -- they're qualified to do the job, and they're doing it.  It 
doesn't make sense to say a person isn't fully qualified to do a job 
(entitled to a PS, in other words) unless he's also capable of starting and 
running his own business in that field.  A PS gives you the ability to Do A 
Job, not necessarily Run A Company. 
 
Doctors in private practice should have PS: Entrepreneur; if a doctor just 
works at a hospital, he doesn't need it. 
> 
>> However, the Hero System rule book does explicitly state "Whereas Knowledge 
>> Skills give the character knowledge of how or why something works, a 
>> Professional Skill gives the character the ability to do it...a person with 
>> PS: Plumbing might not understand the intricacies of water pressure and 
>> water flow friction, but he could fix a broken pipe."  It doesn't say the 
>> Professional Plumber will know how to advertise.  It doesn't say he'll know 
>> how to select an advantageous location for his shop.  It doesn't say he 
>> knows how to competitively price his services.  It says he can fix a broken 
>> pipe. 
> 
>	However, it also states it will allow working in the field, per 
>se.  With the examples of professions with separate (BBB) skills, we have 
>a precident for certain professions needing more than the PS. 
 
I'm not sure what you mean by that first sentence; you aren't quoting.  If 
you mean it includes the ability to use job-related equipment (operating an 
oil rig), that supports my point.  I assume, then, that's not what you meant. 
 
>> Please educate me.  Show me something in the rules that (a) indicates that 
>> a PS does *not* cover basic job functions for any PS, and (b) a suggestion 
>> that new Skills will need to be created by GMs to cover these inexplicable 
>> omissions that have managed to persist through every edition of the Hero 
>> rules to date. 
> 
>	Um.  Skills have been added with every edition as well in almost 
>every suppliment.  Some are obviously not SS, KS, or PS -- these are just 
>plain new skills. 
 
Every edition, probably.  Almost every supplement?  I guess I just picked 
the wrong ones, then.  I went and looked at the Skills sections of Ninja 
Hero, Western Hero, Cyber Hero, Horror Hero and Dark Champions.  Out of 
five major genre sourcebooks, I found one new Skill: Decking.  There were 
several examples of genre-specific Knowledge Skills, but Decking was the 
only one that was truly new.  If you have examples, I'll be happy to go 
look at them.  But again, it's not new Skills I have a problem with -- it's 
new Skills for areas that are already adeqately covered, especially by a PS 
(which is kind of the central point of this discussion).  
 
Damon 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-SMTP: helo pentagon.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@pentagon.io.com ip 199.170.88.5 
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:50:25 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 18 
 
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote: 
 
<snip> 
 
> Tax forms and parts procurement weren't part of Mark's unscrupulous example: 
> "He runs a great business, advertises, has a lot of customers (at least one 
> time each <G>), etc. " 
> 
> This is not PS: Mechanic (or Plumber or Dentist or Accountant); it's PS: 
> Entrepreneur. 
 
That means that Mark's example wasn't explained in the best possible way. 
I think my example showed the difference between 'Mechanic' and 'PS: Auto 
Mechanic' quite well. 
  
> >I generally use this rule of thumb: if the skill i or can have a 
> >significant impact on the game, it deserves to have more detail.  Thus, 
> >Mechanic gets split off from PS: Mechanic, but I'd probably leave PS: 
> >Plumber as one skill. 
>  
> I appreciate your input here, but it only describes your house rules. 
 
Well, actually, it also describes the way the HERO system does things. 
It's never stated right out, but let's look at some examples. 
 
PS: Knight - Under your argument, this should cover fighting (a basic, 
job-related task of the profession).  But the HERO system already has 
rules for fighting, so PS: Knight covers 'Knightly Stuff that isn't 
handled elsewhere'.  The reason HERO handles it elsewhere is because it 
gives a fair amount of detail to combat. 
 
PS: Mechanic - under your argument, this should cover how to fix a car. 
But the HERO system already has the 'Mechanic Skill', so PS: Mechanic 
ought to cover all the job-related stuff that isn't part of 'Mechanics'. 
The reason HERO has a 'Mechanics' skill is because they thought it was 
important enough in enough games to treat in a bit more detail than for 
other skills. 
 
PS: Plumber - this covers all the job skills of the plumber, from knowing 
the best way to fix a pipe to how to order more supplies from companies to 
how to write up an invoice and operate whatever kind of billing system 
they use.  HERO doesn't see a need to handle plumbing in great detail, so 
it doesn't. 
 
> What's at issue isn't how useful general mechanical ability is relative to 
> plumbing expertise, but whether or not a standard PS, as written, covers 
> the basic job-related tasks of its profession.  I contend that it does, and 
> that this is clearly stated in the rules under the description of PS. 
 
I contend, instead, that a PS handles all aspects of a particula 
rprofessiont hat aren't already covered by other skills. If PS covered 
everything, there would be no need for 'mechanic' - we'd use PS: Mechanic. 
There'd be no need for 'Strike' - we'd use PS: Knight. 
 
While it may not be in the rules in a blatant, in-your-face, 'here it is 
in black and white, read it and weep sucka' kind of way. it is certainly 
heavily implied by the way the skill structure is set up.  
 
J 
 
"One equal temper of heroic hearts,              http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will              jeffj@io.com 
 To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."    - Tennyson, "Ulysses" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2 
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:51:44 -0500 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: RE: Proffesional Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 19 
 
>> > How about PS: Lousy Teacher?  Such a PS would cover all the paperwork, 
>> > administrative stuff, knowledge of the school districts, etc - but it 
>> > would impart no actual ability to teach. 
 
I wanted to address this separately, since PS: Entrepreneur isn't 
appropriate in this case.  PS: Teacher should in fact be a measure of an 
individual's ability to teach, though you can certainly opt to make it 
characteristic-based.  That would give a range of abilities dependent on 
the teacher's PRE (or EGO or INT, however you choose to define it) and how 
many points s/he spends to improve the base roll.  Teaching is a complex, 
long-term, interactive process.  You must deal with a variety of factors 
like the student's ability to learn, the restrictions placed on the teacher 
by the school board (in terms of what may be included in the curriculum and 
what materials are made available), the number of students among whom the 
teacher must divide his or her attention, whether or not the teacher must 
follow a set lesson plan an/or make use of standardized tests, etc.  All of 
these are potential situational modifiers to the PS: Teacher Skill Roll. 
 
Routine paperwork and administrative duties such as the preparation of 
lesson plans, grading of tests and report papers, issuing report cards and 
participating in parent/teacher conferences, should all be covered by the 
PS: Teacher.  If the teacher is also an administrator (teaches three 
classes in the morning and functions as assistant vice principal or student 
career advisor in the afternoon) a separate PS: Administrator Skill may 
well be warranted. 
 
>> 	But a KS doesn't give one ability, it gives one knowledge.  And 
>> the study of teaching (Pedantics?) is a knowledge all of its own.  This is 
>> a place for a new PRE-based skill, based off of Acting, Conversation, 
>> Oratory, etc. 
 
Pedagogics, not pedantics.  Yes, it's a study on its own, and not one that 
all teachers should have as a KS.  All teachers by definition have it as a 
demonstrable ability, an integral part of PS: Teacher (pedagogy is "the art 
or profession of teaching", so if you're in the profession, you're a 
pedagogue).  Yes, some are better at it than others, just as some students 
are better at learning than others and some school systems are better at 
providing an education than others (as a result of many factors, not just 
the staff of teachers).   
 
Damon 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo27.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo27.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.71 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 00:54:28 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 20 
 
<< As soon as L&O comes out, my PCs who have law enforcement backgrounds are 
going to wave it in my face and demand ridiculous package deals so that their 
characters are as effective as "Joe." >> 
 
  Then you can wave it right back at them and point to the sections that say 
"...with GMs approval..." "Optional" and so on. Come on, folks. It's one 
example of how to do it. Can we please get over this paranoia and panic mind 
set? :D 
 
<< Mark, I respectfully express my opinion that it is harder to make the fine 
judgments that occupy the middle ground between excruciatingly detailed 200-pt 
normals and supremely abstracted normals who are nothing more than a PS and 
two KS's.  As such, I respectfully express my hope that this area of play will 
not be glossed over.>> 
 
  Your comments are noted, believe me (as have been similar comments over the 
last few days). I certainly hope that people who are reading this thread will 
take the heart some of my comments that I fear have been ignored. Namely the 
"it's not the only thing in the book" comments. ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo arl-img-8.compuserve.com from morfhis@compuserve.com server @arl-img-8.compuserve.com ip 149.174.217.138 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 00:56:23 -0400 
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Subject: RE: Hero Plus printed versions 
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id AAA02104 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 21 
 
> On thing that annoyed me about "The Ultimate Super Mage" was that there 
> really wasn't enough room on the inside margin (duplexed) for 3-hole 
drilled 
> paper.  I suppose it works okay if you want to put it into a three ring 
> notebook, but if you want to put it into a folder/cover or use a simple 
> binding system like you can get at Office Max, the text is just too close 
to 
> the edge of the page!!! 
>  
> On the other hand, the outside margins are _huge_.  I suppose they needed 
to 
> be to fit that large scroll around the page number.  It would have been 
much 
> nicer if the scroll had been smaller, and the whole image moved maybe a 
> quarter of an inch toward the outside margin. 
 
When I printed my copy, it came out just fine, and the margins were 
perfect. You might want to check the margin settings on your printer 
itself. Just a thought... 
 
Jeff Reid 
Morfhis@compuserve.com 
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo29.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo29.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.73 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 01:07:08 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 22 
 
<< Now let me say something that I am very loathe to say.  However, you have 
earned it.  You are an idiot. >> 
 
  There is certainly no need to stoop to name-calling in this list. If you 
can't keep your comments civil and want to make personal attacks I'd suggest 
doing so in private e-mail. I certainly don't want to read them here. Don't 
get me wrong -- I've had my patience stretched at times, too, by various 
comments that seemed to be personal attacks. But let's not let this forum of 
idea exchange degenerate into a snake pit. If it does I'll be reluctantly 
forced to remove myself. 
 
<< Well, okay, maybe not, but you do have a serious problem with understanding 
other people's points of view. >> 
 
  I think your whole letter would have been much better served by beginning 
with a comment like this rather than the way it did. 
 
<< The last 24 hours on this list has very plainly demonstrated that there are 
numerous playing styles and interpretations of the same BBB that we've all 
read. >> 
 
  Well put. 
 
<< You seem to go very light detail, whereas Mark (@ GRG) goes to very great 
detail. >> 
 
  You are attaching labels and generalizations to me and espousing my beliefs. 
Interestingly, none of them are accurate. With all due respect, I have only 
gone to great detail in one sample which I mentioned on this list. No one has 
yet seemed to remember that I also stated that the "detailed" cop was but one 
example from the book, and that we were also planning to address other ways of 
representing cops in the Hero System. 
 
  Even more interesting, while several people have told me that my 
interpretation of a "real \world cop" in Hero System terms was "wrong," not 
one single person has asked to see any of my lower-point versions of cops, nor 
asked about my various treatments of cops for different genres. At this point 
I must say that the relative hostility on this list to my opinions leaves me 
quite reluctant to do so at this point. 
 
<< Personally, I don't care what level of detail you (or Mark, for that 
matter) prefer,>> 
 
  An interesting comment for someone who has told me what level of detail I 
prefer (despite the fact that I have never stated my belief in this matter). 
 
<< My cops will have more skills than yours, but less than Mark's. >> 
 
  Yeah, but my cops can beat up your cops. And my police captain can yell 
louder than yours. <LOL> 
 
<< My goal is provide an afternoon of enjoyment by telling a good story - 
WITHOUT REGARD TO POINTS. >> 
 
  To quote Cartman... "That's what *I* said." :D 
 
<<< However, if we are having a discussion about a 'Realistically Detailed' 
(as Mark refers to the concept) teacher, then you must acknowledge that PS: 
Teaching and Skill: Teaching are not the same thing and should be regarded 
separately.>> 
 
  Hey, I do. I hear you, man. I'm right there with you! ;)  My cops could 
still beat up your teachers, though. :D 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo16.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo16.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.38 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 01:11:03 EDT 
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Hero Wish List 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 23 
 
<< I don't think we can look forward to much in the way of licensed products 
in the Hero System; most are taking Fuzion. >> 
 
  Really, Bob? Is that so? I'm sorry you feel that way. I certainly hope that 
our announcement this summer will change your mind. ;) 
 
<< while I'm not sure exactly what I'm going to do with it, I do intend on 
getting it published in some form, almost certainly through either Hero Plus 
or GRG. >> 
 
  Ahhh... more proposals. Good. Good!  ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo bnllc2.blue.net from mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net server @bnllc2.blue.net ip 206.65.217.254 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 00:31:11 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: mlnunn@blue.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Subject: Re: Joe Solider on 100 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 24 
 
I based that write-up upon my experences in the Army, not all of my 
experences, I didn't include anything I learned in Ranger school, and 
nothing I learned during my time at the National Training Center at Ft Ord CA.  
 
I did include Airborne and Air Assault school, allmost because over 60%  of 
active duty infantry have one or both schools. (60% is more than half Rat) 
that number is according to a DOD publication.    
 
The write-up I provided was a fair cross section of a modern infanty 
solider.  If a unit of infanty was deployed to answer a threat in the real 
world or in a Comic book game world there are a few things that can be 
assumed.   The unit will comnsist of both green newbees, as well as senior 
NCO's who may have had combat duty. Lt's fresh from OCS who are more of a 
liability than a help and officers who have been around.  All in all a 
standard unit covers all the bases.  So having one standard write-up as a 
base is much easier than a 10 diffrent one to handle each type. 
 
Now to answer some of your comments... 
 
> Standard US Army Infantry Solider 
 
> 2	PS: Job Before Joining Military 
 
What job?  Most recruits are fresh out of high school. 
 
Most people have jobs in high school, and since the standards of enlistment 
were raised, you have many more people who wait untill after college to join. 
 
> 2	KS: Hobby 11- 
 
8-, and it is a freebie. 
 
Sounds to me like you would give yourself more than an 8- skill with your hobby. 
 
> 1	Paramedic 8- 
 
Another everyman skill; another freebie. 
 
Maybe, but I don't give everyone an 8- paramedics in my game. 
 
> 3	Tactics 12- 
 
Only after OCS. 
 
Nope, taught in Basic, AIT, and during the whole time you are at your unit. 
In fact it could be broken down into Small Unit Tactics and Individual 
Combat Tactics. 
 
> 1	Computers 8- 
 
Only for a particular specialst.  
 
Every one in the Headquarters Platoon from and Infantry Company learns to 
use a PC, most soliders learn to use computer at least a little during there 
time in the service. 
 
> 1	PERK: Top Secret Security Clearance 
 
Largely useless, so why pay points for it? 
 
Useless?  Not if you want entrance into a secure area or need secret 
information. 
 
> (2)	KS: Military 11- 
> (2)	KS: Military History and Customs 11- 
 
Only for OCS.  Most of what a grunt knows is subsumbed by his soldiering 
professional skill. 
 
Maybe, but all and I do mean all soliders MUST know the history and customs. 
If not they will spend more time in the front leaning rest position than on 
their feet.  (That's doing push ups)  
 
 
> (1)	TF,Parachuting 
 
Infantry don't drop, Rangers drop.   
 
Some one has allready explained this one better than I could. 
 
> (3)	Navigation 11- 
 
A specialist. 
 
Land Nav is a testable skill, you must pass to graduate basic and AIT both. 
 
> (2)	PS: Forward Observer 11- 
 
Ditto. 
 
This is a left over from my write-up, should have been left off. 
 
> 5	Subject to recall 
> 10	Watched,"The US Army",more powerful,non-combat influence, 
> 	 harsh,appear 8- 
 
If discharged, the former applies; if active, the latter.  Pick one. 
 
Again, nope, recall works for both, if active duty you can be recalled from 
leave or even back from a day off.  if out you can be reactivated. 
 
You are watched from now on. You are subject to laws and rules even after 
your discharged. 
 
> 15	DNPC,"spouse",normal,appear 11- 
 
Unlikely for an enlisted Infantryman. 
 
Beleve it or not, a study from 1991 showed that over 70% of all recent 
enlistees will get married during their time in the service.  Spouce can 
also cover girlfriends. 
 
> 5	Unluck,1D6 
 
Not the kind of disadvantage I would want every soldier to have. 
 
Every soldier I know has it, just ask one.  You want an example?   
 
While deployed to Saudia Arabia, The 101st Airborne Div.  experenced more 
rain than had fallen in county since they have kept records.  
 
God loves the Infanty.... 
 
Michael 
 
501st PIR 
101st Airborne  
72nd Ranger Batt 
5th Group Special Forces 
 
   
Rising Force Publications 
Herozine, The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist our recently updated web site... 
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
"You have never lived until you have almost died.  
And for those who fight for it, 
life has a flavor the protected never know"  
- anonymous 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2 
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 00:32:34 -0500 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 25 
 
>That means that Mark's example wasn't explained in the best possible way. 
>I think my example showed the difference between 'Mechanic' and 'PS: Auto 
>Mechanic' quite well. 
 
I've referred to that in a reply to Tim, so I won't repeat it here. 
  
>Well, actually, it also describes the way the HERO system does things. 
>It's never stated right out, but let's look at some examples. 
 
Since it's "never stated right out" what I'm looking at here isn't The 
Rules, but your interpretation of them.  Let's see how much of it I can 
agree with... 
 
>PS: Knight - Under your argument, this should cover fighting (a basic, 
>job-related task of the profession).  But the HERO system already has 
>rules for fighting, so PS: Knight covers 'Knightly Stuff that isn't 
>handled elsewhere'.  The reason HERO handles it elsewhere is because it 
>gives a fair amount of detail to combat. 
 
I have no ready answer for this one, but nothing I've objected to so far 
has anything to do with combat, so I'm not certain that catches me in an 
inconsistency.  I may have to think about this. 
 
>PS: Mechanic - under your argument, this should cover how to fix a car. 
>But the HERO system already has the 'Mechanic Skill', so PS: Mechanic 
>ought to cover all the job-related stuff that isn't part of 'Mechanics'. 
 
Covered elsewhere, but the gist of what I said is that hobby-based 
Mechanics may well provide a different set of techniques, almost certainly 
a different set of tools, and thus enable a Professional Mechanic to 
"repair, replace and build" things the talented amateur could not.  I do 
consider the separate Skill to be subsumed under the PS in many cases. 
 
>The reason HERO has a 'Mechanics' skill is because they thought it was 
>important enough in enough games to treat in a bit more detail than for 
>other skills. 
 
You assume.  Or have you spoken to the original designers and received this 
information first-hand?  I could argue (as I said elsewhere) that 
Mechanics, Electronics and Computer Programming are listed separately 
because, unlike Dentistry, it's possible to acquire them via a hobby, 
without ever getting the PS to go with it.  That being the case, it's not 
inconsistent or unreasonable to consider those Skills to be subsets of 
their respective PS Skills.   
 
>PS: Plumber - this covers all the job skills of the plumber, from knowing 
>the best way to fix a pipe to how to order more supplies from companies to 
>how to write up an invoice and operate whatever kind of billing system 
>they use.  HERO doesn't see a need to handle plumbing in great detail, so 
>it doesn't. 
 
Plumber covers all the job skills of a plumber because that what a PS does, 
not because Hero doesn't consider plumbing important.  (It probably is true 
that Hero doesn't consider plumbing important, I just don't think the 
coverage of a PS varies according to that.)   
 
If I take PS: Plumber for 2 points and it covers all aspects of my job, but 
PS: Mechanic does not, shouldn't I be entitled to a price break on PS: 
Mechanic?  Say a -1/2 Limitation, Requires Additional Skills.  It isn't 
good enough on its own...I can't do the job unless I have these other 
Skills to go with it.  That doesn't make sense to me, and neither does 
claiming the PS means one thing if the profession it represents is 
"important" and something else if the profession isn't "important". 
 
>> What's at issue isn't how useful general mechanical ability is relative to 
>> plumbing expertise, but whether or not a standard PS, as written, covers 
>> the basic job-related tasks of its profession.  I contend that it does, and 
>> that this is clearly stated in the rules under the description of PS. 
> 
>I contend, instead, that a PS handles all aspects of a particula 
>rprofessiont hat aren't already covered by other skills. If PS covered 
>everything, there would be no need for 'mechanic' - we'd use PS: Mechanic. 
>There'd be no need for 'Strike' - we'd use PS: Knight. 
 
You can have hobby-derived Mechanics without being a professional; you can 
have a form of combat skill that includes Strike without having all the 
other abilities that go with being a knight.  The notion that a PS 
incorporates some skill, knowledge or ability doesn't in all cases remove 
the need for the separate ability...though it may serve to limit the wanton 
creation of new ones. 
 
>While it may not be in the rules in a blatant, in-your-face, 'here it is 
>in black and white, read it and weep sucka' kind of way. it is certainly 
>heavily implied by the way the skill structure is set up.  
 
I've tried to convey here (and in replies to Tim) that there's more than 
one possible explanation for why some Skills are separate from the 
Professional Skills they seem most closely associated with.  That being the 
case, perhaps you are inferring something from the Skill structure that is 
not in fact being implied. 
 
Damon 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2 
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 00:37:07 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 26 
 
>  Your comments are noted, believe me (as have been similar comments over the 
>last few days). I certainly hope that people who are reading this thread will 
>take the heart some of my comments that I fear have been ignored. Namely the 
>"it's not the only thing in the book" comments. ;) 
 
You have a legitimate gripe here.  However, although you have referred to 
other material L&O will cover, the "200-point cop" thread discusses the 
only thing you've actually *shown* here.  Describe any other part of the 
book you like in as much detail as you've described Officer Joe and those 
comments will end.  They won't necessarily be replaced by comments you'll 
like any better, of course.   :) 
 
Damon 
 
|--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************| 
|--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/     | 
|   Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines           | 
|       Worthy Causes -- Computer -- Atlanta -- All Human Knowledge  | 
|--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo sanfran.infinex.com from rook@infinex.com server root@ns1.infinex.com ip 207.113.220.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 22:50:03 -0700 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
CC: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Hero Wish List 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 27 
 
> >1. Cardboard miniatures, blanks, siloettes (sp wrong, I failed my Int check), 
> > and fully drawn and colored of all sorts. 
>  
>    Someone else made mention of silhouette Cardboard Heroes.  I vote for 
> both options:  regular Cardboard Heroes for published NPCs, and silhouettes 
> for PCs and house NPCs. 
>  
	I'd want full drawn pictures of not only published NPC's, but of 
whatever 
characters hit the artist's fancy. This way, my players would have a 
grab bag of hundreds 
of counters to choose from if they weren't art inclined. Plus it gives 
me hundreds of NPC ideas. 
 
> >6. A whole book of siloettes (failed that Int roll again. :) ) for my less 
> > art inclined players. 
>  
>    Someone else mentioned a book of character sheets with different 
> silhouettes, and I think I'd prefer that.  A disk of silhouettes for 
> Creation Workshop character sheets would be cool too. 
 
	This is one of those rare things I might actually prefer on disk over 
paper. 
 
> >8. WorldBooks, Licenced lines. Marvel Hero, Conan Fantasy Hero, Expanding 
> > Western Shores out to a full worldbook. San Angelo, etc... 
>  
>    I don't think we can look forward to much in the way of licensed 
> products in the Hero System; most are taking Fuzion.  However, there's been 
 
	Which is sad. The comics industry right now is in an even worse slump 
than the RPG industry. You'd think they'd jump at the chance for 
publicity, even if minor. 
	But GURPS has proven that many fiction authors are willing to license. 
 
> >9. Villian and Hero collections. Enemies and Allies books. Though I disliked 
> > allies as it lacked enough solo's and had too many teams for my tastes. 
> > I would want these to be single quick NPC's I could toss in on a rainy 
> > day. Or scavenge for parts, more or less, when building my own NPC's. 
>  
>    More Enemies books?  Maybe reworkings of the Enemies books by origin 
 
	Well; that's why I listed it dead last. It's what I least want to see 
them publish. 
--  
Rook			    
 __ 
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html  Super Hero Links Page 
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/              Super Hero Role 
Playing 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo25.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo25.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.69 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 01:58:18 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 28 
 
<< Are you not now saying that certification is part of the PS? >> 
 
  No, no, not at all. Sorry. What I should have said that PS: Whatever confers 
the knowledge of how to GET the licensing moreso than the actual license 
itself. There are steps to obtaining and maintaining a license for any 
profession, obviously enough. I think a PS should allow a character to have 
this information. 
 
<< He doesn't sound like a mechanic at all. >> 
 
  But nevertheless, by definition, he is still a "mechanic." 
 
<< In the example above, *any* unscrupulous business owner who is good at 
advertising and generating a customer base could be subtituted. >> 
 
  Very much so. I see real world examples almost every day. I'm sure you do, 
too. ;) 
 
<< Thus, none of these Skills are worth a damn except as a generic ability to 
do business; under the system you (and some others) describe, you seem to have 
to buy [a KS] in order to do the job...despite the fact that the rules pretty 
clearly state that the PS allows you to do the job. >> 
 
  Being able to do a job and really knowing what your doing in that field are 
not necessarily the same thing, as others have pointed out. The example of 
teachers who cannot "teach," lawyers who passed the bar but couldn't litigate 
to save their lives, etc., are all examples of this line of thought. 
 
<< What you are describing doesn't sound like PS: Mechanic to me, it sounds 
like Business Sense, presumably a Background Skill, which measures how good 
a businessman you are regardless of your chosen field. >> 
 
  Not so. The "unscrupulous mechanic" in my example has to have *some* 
knowledge of being a mechanic to run the business effectively, thus the 
Familiarity with Mechanic. Someone with a Masters in Business Administration 
but nbo background whatsopever in law is going to have a tough time running a 
paralegal service all by himself. ;) 
 
<< If any special knowledge of the industry is needed, separate from the 
knowledge of how to do the job, you can buy KS: <The Industry>, allow the PS 
to cover the basic job functions, and not need to buy a separate, made-up 
Skill. >> 
 
  So what is the difference, philosophically, between buying (what I deem to 
be) the prerequisite skill and (what you state) a KS: The Industry? :)  Not 
much, if any at all, IMO. 
 
<< Again, I thought we'd established that you needed Perk: P.I. License, 
separate from PS: Private Investigator in order to be certified to do the job. 
>> 
 
  You're right, we did. Sorry. Bad example. 
 
<< Not every P.I. will be as good as every other, whis is why you can buy the 
PS at 11-, 12-, 13- or whatever suits your level of ability. >> 
 
  And any PI who doesn't have Detective Work or Deduction or any other 
"investigative"-type skills won't be very effective at all. I would assert 
that such a character is a PI by name only (the PS) and not by definition. ;) 
 
<< ...the Hero System rule book does explicitly state "Whereas Knowledge 
Skills give the character knowledge of how or why something works, a 
Professional Skill gives the character the ability to do it...a person with 
PS: Plumbing might not understand the intricacies of water pressure and water 
flow friction, but he could fix a broken pipe." >> 
 
Right. So someone with PS: Trial Lawyer could argue in court, but without KS: 
Law he may have no clue what the heck he is arguing about or truly understand 
how the law works! <LOL> Someone with PS: Writer could draft a ton of books 
and send them off to his agent, but without a skill conferring the theories 
and understanding the "elements of style" he has little luck of getting 
published. Well, maybe I should rephrase that. He may get published, but his 
work will certainly not win any awards. ;) 
 
<< It also appears to me that you, Tim and a handful of others are blatantly 
ignoring the description of PS, which I've quoted in part above. >> 
 
  That';s right. The publisher is ignoring the rules printed in the product. 
::sigh:: No, I am not blatantly ignoring them. I am interpreting them. I think 
a PS would certainly be sufficient for some jobs that are essentially less 
technical (PS: Waitress? PS: Video Rental Clerk?). But when it comes to some 
jobs, other skills are an absolute necessity. One could be a plumber with PS: 
Plumber, but how many plumbers do you know that really know how to do pipe 
work and have absolutely no knowledge of water pressure and such? 
 
<< I have already been a flaming idiot today, though, and make allowance for 
the possibility that there is something I'm not seeing here. Please educate 
me. >> 
 
  We're trying. ;)  Perhaps in large part it *does* simply come down to 
preferred style of play. 
 
<< Show me something in the rules that (a) indicates that a PS does *not* 
cover basic job functions for any PS, and (b) a suggestion that new Skills 
will need to be created by GMs to cover these inexplicable omissions that have 
managed to persist through every edition of the Hero rules to date.>> 
 
  I am not going to point out specific rules passages to you to try to 
convince you. I believe much of it is common sense and desired style of play 
(read: opinion). Besides, you posted one of the same quotes I did. 
 
  If you are only going to acknowledge the published rules as canon and not be 
open to a differing point of view, then what's the point? I thought we were 
discussing an interpretation of the rules; a way to present a "realistically 
detailed" option to the low-point NPCs that many Hero fans are used to. 
 
  If we *were* to publish such a rule, would that convince you to consider the 
possibility that PS is not the catch-all skill that some people consider it to 
be? Do you see how silly this all is? <LOL> 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo26.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo26.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.70 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 02:01:55 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 30 
 
<< The 'Mechanic' skill is posessed by any back-yard auto mechanic... It 
covers 
fixing cars, and that's it. >> 
 
  Oh, boy. That's not correct. Mechanics covers "mechanical devices and... how 
to repair, replace and build them." That can cover a lot more than just cars. 
In fact, in the description, it mentions modifying a car engine to power a 
boat. :) 
 
<< So yeah, they'd be two different skills, and any good professional mechanic 
is going to have both.>> 
 
  My point exactly! :D 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo sanfran.infinex.com from rook@infinex.com server root@ns1.infinex.com ip 207.113.220.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:03:17 -0700 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
To: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
CC: "[unknown]" <CHAMP-L@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Hero Wish List 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 31 
 
> >4. Champions Plus. Rules expansions, optional rules, and popular house 
> rules 
>         put this one out on a one volume a year basis or something. 
>         Collect rules from people's house games and present them for 
>         everyone's perusal.< 
>  
> I would suggest that each book should publish everything from the old book 
> (maybe revised), plus whatever new stuff came up in a year.  The reason I 
> suggest this is because, once early issues become unavailable, you'll have 
> a split in the demographic between veteran players who know about Rule Y 
> and relative newbies that can only find out about it by talking to 
> veterans. 
 
	That would mean that each book would get bigger than the last until you 
eventually had a 1000+ page volume of all the house rules in use in 
every known hero system game out there. 
 
>  
> >2. Genre books 
> 3. Sub genre books 
> 5. Gm and Players screens 
> 9. Villian and Hero collections. 
 
> I'm not sure why these are on your wishlist, since they already exist.  The 
> packet of charts that came with the GM screen makes a handy reference for 
> all players. 
 
	My wishlist is not what I want to see next, so much as how I would have 
done it if it had been me. The numbers where the priority I would place 
on them. So number 9 is where I would put my 'spare resources' into 
developing. Where-as numbers 1 and 2 would have gotten my full attention 
and resources as a game publisher. I've always felt Hero should have 
followed GURPS' path and tried to license or design a world and or genre 
book for everything they could come up with. 
 
> >>8. WorldBooks, Licenced lines. Marvel Hero, Conan Fantasy Hero, Expanding 
>         Western Shores out to a full worldbook. San Angelo, etc...<< 
>  
> To be honest, I think of the Hero System as strictly a Superhero system, 
> and I've been resistant to trying it for anything else (for example, when I 
> was shopping for a new fantasy system, I chose Earthdawn over Fantasy Hero 
> and others). 
 
	That too bad. I've always felt Hero did Fantasy better than it did 
Super. It was a natural fit for the genre. Either that or Fantasy Hero 
just very well written. But I've always found that it plays very well in 
that genre. It plays even better in pulp. This despite the fact that the 
stat and skill range is so limited at those power levels. If you can get 
past how that looks and just try it; you'll likely find it very playable 
and fun. 
 
>  However, these would probably be good ideas for the majority 
> of players who don't have this hangup.  I'd be particularly interested in a 
> game and/or worldbook that did justice to the world of Conan...I'm one of 
> the few people who bought (and still own) the Conan RPG that TSR put out 
> years ago. 
 
	GURPS Conan was a masterpiece; IMHO. It sits on my shelf as something 
I'm very glad to say I own. I made it a policy to avoid buying anything 
TSR with extra good cause and pre knowledge of the contents years ago. 
 
--  
Rook			    
 __ 
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html  Super Hero Links Page 
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/              Super Hero Role 
Playing 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo19.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo19.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.41 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 02:04:00 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 29 
 
<< What I /didn't/ have when I entered the workforce was: PS: Computer 
Programmer, which covers a lot of the 'procedural' stuff... >> 
 
  Hmm... That echoes my earlier post in which I said that PS was primary 
procedural. Interesting. I think we're on to something here. ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo26.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo26.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.70 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 02:15:21 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 32 
 
<< What's at issue [is] whether or not a standard PS, as written, covers the 
basic job-related tasks of its profession. >> 
 
  Certainly it does. I never suggested otherwise. In fact, early on I listed a 
number of duties a cop could perform with just PS: Police Officer. Why are you 
making this some type of internal struggle when it's not? It's simply a matter 
of misunderstanding what is being said, I think. 
 
<< ...so far I haven't any of these people back up their position with 
anything that's actually *in* the rules. >> 
 
  As a publisher of Hero System products I hereby declare it is now an Otional 
Rule. <LOL> Satisfied? 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo16.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo16.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.38 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 02:21:06 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Tough? Lemme tell you about tough... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 33 
 
<< Maybe, but Joe Lumberjack or Joe Trapper would clean up on either of them. 
>> 
 
  With or without guns? At what range? In what setting (forest, hills, 
flatland...)? ;) 
 
<< Oh, and not all comic book artists are pushovers. Fred Perry (Gold Digger) 
in particular was a soldier before pursuing his current career...>> 
 
  But I thought you said soldiers were sissy-boys? No, wait.. I got that 
messed up again. <LOL> 
 
  FWIW, I never said all comic artists were pushovers. We were talking 
averages, nevermind the fact that I was being facetious. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo iquest3.iquest.net from bastet@iquest.net server @iquest3.iquest.net ip 209.43.20.203 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 01:38:31 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7 
To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: More supplement reviews 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 34 
 
> > Oh, who else wants to see a full write up of all of the Tiger Squad? 
>  
> Hmmm... sure.  But isn't that like... 35 people?   
 
I did them for another game some time ago.  But I also wrote up Dr. 
Destroyer's Iron Lords for that game.  The PC's were agents of Dr. D, so I 
had to put more work into them than I would for a Superhero game.  That 
game went through so many turns and twists and covered 20 game years.  One 
of my two favorite games to GM to date. 
 
> > Kinda cries out for a whole book devoted to say, Asia, for Champions, 
> > doesn't it? You could throw the Tiger Squad in, discuss Bhuddism, Taoism, 
> > Zen, Shinto, Confucianism, etc... 
>  
> Hmmm... I diubt it would ever get written.  Of course, my Wuxia Hero 
> proposal was going to include some of these ideas. 
 
I doubt it would get written but could be interesting.  I liked Wuxia 
Hero, at least the section I found on the webpages. 
 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo sanfran.infinex.com from rook@infinex.com server root@ns1.infinex.com ip 207.113.220.1 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:50:24 -0700 
From: Rook <rook@infinex.com> 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 36 
 
> >> >  A writing skill to go with it?  This will help you try to get 
> >> > something published, but not write it. 
> >> 
> >>  KS: Writing? 
> > 
> > Nah.  With that you could teach it.  Call it a new skill: Writing. 
> >I'm not sure if it should just be 11- or be based on INT or PRE. 
>  
>    I think it would probably be most representative to make Writing a 
> stat-based Professional Skill.  Let it variably be based on INT, PRE, or 
 
	Ok. 
 
	KS: Writing (Based on ___ ) 
 
--  
Rook			    
 __ 
/.)\ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/SHlinks.html  Super Hero Links Page 
\(@/ http://www.infinex.com/~rook/SH/              Super Hero Role 
Playing 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo m7.sprynet.com from chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com server @m7.sprynet.com ip 165.121.2.64 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 23:52:32 -0700 
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com> 
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com 
Organization: None 
To: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Law& Order (was Re: Joe Cop...) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 35 
 
 
 
GoldRushG wrote: 
 
>   To be honest, however, I'm starting to get a little bored with some of the 
> same comments over and over and over again in this thread. It's this very 
> reason that I seldom post anything of substance to the HML. It's a shame that 
> people can't simply state their opinion, seek clarification, and say "Hm. I 
> wouldn't use that, but it is cool to see. I wonder what else they're going to 
> do in the book?" 
> 
>   Mark @ GRG 
 
  Amen... Geez some of us can't stop repeating them selves over and over and over 
and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over (sadistic 
aren't I?) 
over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over 
and over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and 
over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over 
and over and over and over (I love the cutt and paste commands) over and over and 
over and over and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over 
and over and over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and 
over and over and over over and over and over and over and over and over and over 
and over. 
 
 
Quit trying to beat your opinions into everyone's head, if we didn't agree with 
you then we certainly won't after the flame war is done... 
 
 
No Life, no sig 
Gonna dance me a jig. 
 
God I depress me 
 
Chad 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo m7.sprynet.com from chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com server @m7.sprynet.com ip 165.121.2.64 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 00:07:44 -0700 
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com> 
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com 
Organization: None 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: More supplement reviews 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 37 
 
 
 
Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
> 
> > >> * Watchers of the Dragon 
> 
> > >The characters themselves range from the pretty cool (David LoPa--- uh, I 
> > >mean Dr. Yin Wu) to the downright absurd (Maya).  The point totals on a 
> > >lot of these guys is a killer, expect to see a lot of 350-400 point 
> > >characters.  OTOH: There are scads of 250 to 275 pointers. 
> > 
> > Agreed. WotD presented a 'mixed bag' of characters - from the barely more 
> > than starting PC all the way to what a highly experienced 'super' martial 
> > artist would be. 
> 
> Yeah, but some of them 'super' martial artists are way of the scale (there 
> are two 800+ point characters in the book) 
> 
> Okay, This is another of my pet peeves with this group. But before I rant I will 
> say that my earlier opinion of the groups attitude towards "high-end" characters 
> and those who play in highlevel campaigns was incorrect. I haven't seen many 
> personal attacks so I'll keep it civil myself. 
 
Any way, to my rant. There were what 30+ characters in the book some were 250 - 
275and others were higher (some a lot higher) my question is so what? I mean if 
you want to make an immortal Martial artist who fights (and can give them a go of 
it)an entire team of super heroes are you gonna use another 250pt guy? I doubt it. 
 
I mean like the guys say these guys aren't carved in stone, alter them don't smash 
the author.... 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo m7.sprynet.com from chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com server @m7.sprynet.com ip 165.121.1.64 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 00:32:01 -0700 
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com> 
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com 
Organization: None 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 39 
 
Not to get completely off the subject but this thread title reminds me of one of 
our fav. Silly supers NORMAL MAN! He was completely normal except that he had a 
booming voice and a PRE of 50. He made many low end villains wet their pants and 
he was fearless he'd run into burning buildings to save a lady's potted 
plant...... 
 
Other Stupid heroes were: 
Captain Invincible who, like NORMAL MAN, had base stats except for PRE (20) and 
he had Telepathy (or mind control I can't remember) 15d6 always on AE that made 
people think he was immune to all harm. He was killed by a team mate who tried to 
smash a villain into his invulnerable teammate at superspeed.....SQUISH 
 
Armor Man: whose armor was OAF; he had a big red button on his chest that said 
EJECT BUTTON. He was often shot out of the back of his armor in round one.He 
latter bought down the Limitation but not being the brightest genius inventor, he 
bought it to IAF and scribbled over EJECT BUTTON with "This in not an EJECT 
BUTTON". 
 
sorry back to the Average Man...... 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo bnllc2.blue.net from mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net server @bnllc2.blue.net ip 206.65.217.254 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 03:16:34 -0500 (CDT) 
X-Sender: mlnunn@blue.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Subject: Re: Tough? Lemme tell you about tough... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 38 
 
>Maybe, but Joe Lumberjack or Joe Trapper would clean up on either of them. 
>Wilderness folk are tough, oy vey...;-). For example, my cousin, who skipped 
>a chainsaw off a tree, into her leg, through chainmail pants. Way cool 
>scar...That's right, HER. Nowadays she works for the Ministry of the 
>Environment, directing firefighting efforts in the summer, and animal 
>control in the winter...did I mention the packs of wild dogs? Makes soldier 
>boys look sissy by comparison - and she tells me stories about the tough 
>people she's met :-) :-) :-). 
> 
>Oh, and not all comic book artists are pushovers. Fred Perry (Gold Digger) 
>in particular was a soldier before pursuing his current career... 
 
Sissy's... gee I think those are fightin' words :-) 
 
I have to admit some soldiers aren't not the toughest people in the world 
but I can tell you from personal experience that some of the toughest, 
meanest, most dangerous people in the world are in the Military.   
 
For example... 
 
Take the case of Sgt P.  name deleted to protect the guilty :-) 
 
Sgt P played football at Alabama, he was Navy SEAL.  During the invasion of 
Panama he was shot, his wound caused him to be discharged from the Navy.  He 
healed and joined the Army and went to Special Forces Q course. He was a 
semipro body builder, he spent two tours as a Drill SGT.  I saw him 
personally clean out a bar full of Marines and members of the 24th Infanty 
Division.  I saw him pick up a 200 pound plus Marine with one hand around 
his neck and smash him into the wall hard enough the guy was knocked out, he 
then hit him with the other hand...  This wasn't TV wrestling it was real 
life. Kinda looked like the WWF, but alot more painful.  
 
Sissy huh?   
 
Oh yeah, SGT P. is a Fire Jumper when he goes home. 
 
Michael 
Rising Force Publications 
Herozine, The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist our recently updated web site... 
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
 
"You have never lived until you have almost died.  
And for those who fight for it, 
life has a flavor the protected never know"  
- anonymous 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo access1.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access1.digex.net ip 205.197.245.192 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 07:10:03 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: More supplement reviews 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 40 
 
On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Tokyo Mark wrote: 
 
> > > Kinda cries out for a whole book devoted to say, Asia, for Champions, 
> > > doesn't it? You could throw the Tiger Squad in, discuss Bhuddism, Taoism, 
> > > Zen, Shinto, Confucianism, etc... 
> >  
> > Hmmm... I doubt it would ever get written.  Of course, my Wuxia Hero 
> > proposal was going to include some of these ideas. 
>  
> I doubt it would get written but could be interesting.  I liked Wuxia 
> Hero, at least the section I found on the webpages. 
 
Thank you! 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo post.mail.demon.net from chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk server @post-20.mail.demon.net ip 194.217.242.27 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:49:37 +0100 
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
To: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com> 
CC: JASON SULLIVAN <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu&> champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: 0 END DI 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 133 
 
Dataweaver wrote: 
>  
> On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, JASON SULLIVAN wrote: 
>  
> > Anyone here know the offial answer to this problem? 
> > If DI is bought 0 END, do you need to pay the END cost of the STR it grants? 
>  
> Yes. 
>  
> ---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver --------- 
 
I would agree. If you want to get the strength for nothing as well then 
you need to buy 0END on the strength itself. This is not terribly points 
efficient, as you will not always have that level of strength (but, if 
it doesn't cost you in END to "power up" you only need to worry about 
this when ou are standing on a bed of eggshells or something.) 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo post.mail.demon.net from chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk server @post-20.mail.demon.net ip 194.217.242.27 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:56:27 +0100 
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
To: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
CC: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Hero Plus: "Cardboard Heroes"? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 128 
 
If there is a big enough demand for this then I might give it a try and 
stick on my web page. Before I embark on this epic mission..... just how 
desperate are you guys (if we're bribing again I only except cash) 
 
David B Stallard wrote: 
>  
> >>Is there a chance that Hero Games might be able to realease some 
> "cardboard 
> hero" type counters in electronic format?<< 
>  
> Lots of people (myself included) are asking for more of those cardboard 
> "miniatures".  Hero or Gold Rush, are you taking notes?  :-)  My personal 
> preference would be to have only silhouettes on these miniatures (just like 
> the character sheets), so we could draw our own heroes/villains onto them. 
> Sounds like an inexpensive project that is highly desired. 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo post.mail.demon.net from chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk server @post-20.mail.demon.net ip 194.217.242.27 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:56:27 +0100 
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
To: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
CC: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Hero Plus: "Cardboard Heroes"? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 132 
 
If there is a big enough demand for this then I might give it a try and 
stick on my web page. Before I embark on this epic mission..... just how 
desperate are you guys (if we're bribing again I only except cash) 
 
David B Stallard wrote: 
>  
> >>Is there a chance that Hero Games might be able to realease some 
> "cardboard 
> hero" type counters in electronic format?<< 
>  
> Lots of people (myself included) are asking for more of those cardboard 
> "miniatures".  Hero or Gold Rush, are you taking notes?  :-)  My personal 
> preference would be to have only silhouettes on these miniatures (just like 
> the character sheets), so we could draw our own heroes/villains onto them. 
> Sounds like an inexpensive project that is highly desired. 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo post.mail.demon.net from chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk server @post-20.mail.demon.net ip 194.217.242.27 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:05:40 +0100 
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
To: redbf@ldd.net 
CC: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Professional Skills 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 129 
 
A good example of this is in the Feng Shui system (OK... I know it's 
light on rules.. but..) 
 
They break any skill down into 3 component parts 
 
1- Being able to physically do it (e.g fire a a gun) 
2- Knowing the thoery behind it (e.g. Ah... a Colt 45...) 
3- Knowing other people who know about it (e.g. "Hey Bob, more .45 
rounds?" "Yeah Bill, put them on my account ok.. the waterfronts a 
mess!") 
 
This seems like a pretty good of considering the professional skill, 
after all you are supposed to a professional in your field right? 
 
If you want to know EVERYTHING about your field you take the KS to go 
with, and if you want a contact who is really reliable (or a real big 
account at the gun sotre!) then you can buy a contact. 
 
Comments (ducks ...) 
 
bobby farris wrote: 
>  
>         Seems to me there is a lot of talk about what exactly a 
> Proffesional Skill covers and what it doesn't cover so I am including my 
> own House rules here for you to flame on. 
>  
>         If there are no other applicable skills to the Proffesion, such 
> as Pro Football player, then the 
> PS: Football Player gives the player: 
>         a) the ability to play Football, 
>         b) the ability to know the rules of Football, 
>         c) the ability to know the little things a football star would 
> know like other players, agents, rules of the league, etc. 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo post.mail.demon.net from chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk server @post-20.mail.demon.net ip 194.217.242.27 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:09:14 +0100 
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
CC: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 134 
 
> Goode, Jason writes: 
>  
> > Actually, a teacher who is any good would also have a skill in teaching. 
>  
 
If only they knew this in my university... 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2 
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com&> champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: Proffesional Skills x2 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:39:05 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 42 
 
And you'll notice that I retracted it in the next sentence, and then 
proceeded to explain what I really meant. 
 
I am not *stating* anything about your style of play, only that you *seem* 
to have x preferences based on your previous comments.  You'll note that I 
did use the word *seem*.  It means that I don't know, but this is my current 
thought based on the evidence available. 
 
Regardless, my teachers get more respect and appreciation than your cops 
;-) 
 
Jason Goode 
 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From:	GoldRushG [SMTP:GoldRushG@aol.com] 
> Sent:	Wednesday, April 15, 1998 1:07 AM 
> To:	champ-l@sysabend.org 
> Subject:	Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
>  
> << Now let me say something that I am very loathe to say.  However, you 
> have 
> earned it.  You are an idiot. >> 
>  
>   There is certainly no need to stoop to name-calling in this list. If you 
> can't keep your comments civil and want to make personal attacks I'd 
> suggest 
> doing so in private e-mail. I certainly don't want to read them here. 
> Don't 
> get me wrong -- I've had my patience stretched at times, too, by various 
> comments that seemed to be personal attacks. But let's not let this forum 
> of 
> idea exchange degenerate into a snake pit. If it does I'll be reluctantly 
> forced to remove myself. 
>  
> << Well, okay, maybe not, but you do have a serious problem with 
> understanding 
> other people's points of view. >> 
>  
>   I think your whole letter would have been much better served by 
> beginning 
> with a comment like this rather than the way it did. 
>  
> << The last 24 hours on this list has very plainly demonstrated that there 
> are 
> numerous playing styles and interpretations of the same BBB that we've all 
> read. >> 
>  
>   Well put. 
>  
> << You seem to go very light detail, whereas Mark (@ GRG) goes to very 
> great 
> detail. >> 
>  
>   You are attaching labels and generalizations to me and espousing my 
> beliefs. 
> Interestingly, none of them are accurate. With all due respect, I have 
> only 
> gone to great detail in one sample which I mentioned on this list. No one 
> has 
> yet seemed to remember that I also stated that the "detailed" cop was but 
> one 
> example from the book, and that we were also planning to address other 
> ways of 
> representing cops in the Hero System. 
>  
>   Even more interesting, while several people have told me that my 
> interpretation of a "real \world cop" in Hero System terms was "wrong," 
> not 
> one single person has asked to see any of my lower-point versions of cops, 
> nor 
> asked about my various treatments of cops for different genres. At this 
> point 
> I must say that the relative hostility on this list to my opinions leaves 
> me 
> quite reluctant to do so at this point. 
>  
> << Personally, I don't care what level of detail you (or Mark, for that 
> matter) prefer,>> 
>  
>   An interesting comment for someone who has told me what level of detail 
> I 
> prefer (despite the fact that I have never stated my belief in this 
> matter). 
>  
> << My cops will have more skills than yours, but less than Mark's. >> 
>  
>   Yeah, but my cops can beat up your cops. And my police captain can yell 
> louder than yours. <LOL> 
>  
> << My goal is provide an afternoon of enjoyment by telling a good story - 
> WITHOUT REGARD TO POINTS. >> 
>  
>   To quote Cartman... "That's what *I* said." :D 
>  
> <<< However, if we are having a discussion about a 'Realistically 
> Detailed' 
> (as Mark refers to the concept) teacher, then you must acknowledge that 
> PS: 
> Teaching and Skill: Teaching are not the same thing and should be regarded 
> separately.>> 
>  
>   Hey, I do. I hear you, man. I'm right there with you! ;)  My cops could 
> still beat up your teachers, though. :D 
>  
>   Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2 
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net&> champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: Joe Solider on 100 points?!?!? 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:40:51 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 41 
 
5th Group?  I think one of your SFA teams still has my snorkel gear.  ;-) 
 
Jason Goode 
 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From:	Michael Nunn [SMTP:mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net] 
> Sent:	Wednesday, April 15, 1998 1:31 AM 
> To:	champ-l@sysabend.org 
> Subject:	Re: Joe Solider on 100 points?!?!? 
>  
> God loves the Infanty.... 
>  
> Michael 
>  
> 501st PIR 
> 101st Airborne  
> 72nd Ranger Batt 
> 5th Group Special Forces 
>  
>    
> Rising Force Publications 
> Herozine, The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist our recently updated web 
> site... 
> http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
>  
> "You have never lived until you have almost died.  
> And for those who fight for it, 
> life has a flavor the protected never know"  
> - anonymous 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-SMTP: helo pentagon.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@pentagon.io.com ip 199.170.88.5 
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:04:37 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 43 
 
On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, GoldRushG wrote: 
 
> << The 'Mechanic' skill is posessed by any back-yard auto mechanic... It 
> covers 
> fixing cars, and that's it. >> 
>  
>   Oh, boy. That's not correct. Mechanics covers "mechanical devices and... how 
> to repair, replace and build them." That can cover a lot more than just cars. 
> In fact, in the description, it mentions modifying a car engine to power a 
> boat. :) 
 
Poorly worded. My bad.  Replace 'cars' with 'stuff' and you have what I 
/meant/ to say - i.e that 'Mechanics' covers fixing stuff, and not all the 
things that PS: Auto Mechanic covers. 
 
J 
 
"One equal temper of heroic hearts,              http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will              jeffj@io.com 
 To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."    - Tennyson, "Ulysses" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail.interhop.net from jprins@interhop.net server root@mail.interhop.net ip 204.50.138.29 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:35:03 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: More supplement reviews 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 44 
 
>> Agreed. WotD presented a 'mixed bag' of characters - from the barely more 
>> than starting PC all the way to what a highly experienced 'super' martial 
>> artist would be. 
> 
>Yeah, but some of them 'super' martial artists are way of the scale (there 
>are two 800+ point characters in the book) 
 
But wouldn't you expect that from the "World's Greatest" super-martial 
artist? I still wonder if Lin Hu's 80 point VPP is enough to simulate all 
the martial arts powers of legend! I don't mind the odd 800+ point villian 
(or hero); it's when the point levels are consistantly 400+ that it bugs me. 
WotD had martial artists from pretty much all ends of the 'super' martial 
artist scale, which was fine by me. 
 
>> Oh, who else wants to see a full write up of all of the Tiger Squad? 
> 
>Hmmm... sure.  But isn't that like... 35 people?   
 
Yeah. So? 
 
>Heh... love Gossamer Storm's artwork... looks like the artist used Minka 
>as a figure model. 
 
Indeed, very nice... 
  
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo m4.boston.juno.com from llwatts@juno.com server @m4.boston.juno.com ip 205.231.101.198 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-7,10-12 
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts) 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:35:24 EDT 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 45 
 
>   For the system as it currently stands, the teacher without the PS  
>would 
>probably just need Familiarity with Acting (so it looks like he's  
>doing a 
>good job) and Forgery (to make his papers look like they're legitimate  
>-- a 
>stretch of a use for that Skill, but what else are you going to use?). 
 
Contacts/Favors might also work -- both to get the job and to get the 
teaching certificate (anyone can pass a certification test if they 
already have the answers, no roll required IMHO). 
 
Leah 
 
_____________________________________________________________________ 
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. 
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com 
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-SMTP: helo pentagon.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@pentagon.io.com ip 199.170.88.5 
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:38:15 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 46 
 
On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote: 
>  
> >PS: Knight - Under your argument, this should cover fighting (a basic, 
> >job-related task of the profession). 
>  
> I have no ready answer for this one, but nothing I've objected to so far 
> has anything to do with combat, so I'm not certain that catches me in an 
> inconsistency.  I may have to think about this. 
 
Well, is fighting not a basic, job-related task of the 'Knight'  
profession?  How about the 'Gladiator' profession, or 'Soldier'?  In all 
of those cases, someone in that profession who did not know how to fight 
would certainly not be able to perform the basic tasks of the profession. 
 
With regards to your 'nothing I've objected to so far has anything to do 
with combat' - why should it be any different when it involves combat?  If 
PS: Knight or Gladiator /doesn't/ cover fighting, then isn't that claiming 
(as you say below) that 'PS means one thing if the profession it 
represents is "important" and something else if the profession isn't 
"important".'? 
 
> >PS: Mechanic - under your argument, this should cover how to fix a car. 
> >But the HERO system already has the 'Mechanic Skill', so PS: Mechanic 
> >ought to cover all the job-related stuff that isn't part of 'Mechanics'. 
<snip>  
> I do 
> consider the separate Skill to be subsumed under the PS in many cases. 
 
So in your system, PS: Private Investigator would subsume Interrogation, 
Deduction, Investigation, Shadowing, Bureaucracy, and all the other 
skills related to Private Detecting?  That's quite a deal.  Why would I 
want to pay 5 points for Deduction skill if I can get all the other stuff 
packaged into the same roll for the same price? 
  
> If I take PS: Plumber for 2 points and it covers all aspects of my job, but 
> PS: Mechanic does not, shouldn't I be entitled to a price break on PS: 
> Mechanic?  Say a -1/2 Limitation, Requires Additional Skills.  It isn't 
> good enough on its own...I can't do the job unless I have these other 
> Skills to go with it.  That doesn't make sense to me, and neither does 
> claiming the PS means one thing if the profession it represents is 
> "important" and something else if the profession isn't "important". 
 
If I were a backyard mechanic, and became a professional, shouldn't I get 
a price break on PS: Mechanic because I already have the skill?  If not, 
I'm paying twice for the same thing. 
 
See my PS: Private Investigator above.  Shouldn't that cost /more/, 
because it encompasses so much more stuff? It covers 4 or 5 skills - 
perhaps more, depending on how you stretch it.  
 
PS: Cat Burglar would likewise, under your system, seem to encompass 
Stealth, Lockpicking, Streetwise, a bit of Merchant... 
 
How about PS: Fast Food Cook vs. PS: Brain Surgeon?  A neurosurgeon has to 
spend years and years in training, and must have lots of specialized 
knowledge to do what he does.  Shouldn't it cost more, because it 
encompasses so much more than how long to leave the fries in the oil? 
 
It seems to me that you are treating "Professional Skill' as some kind of 
massive package deal that encompasses literally everything that might be 
done by a particular profession, even if there are other skills for it in 
the game.  I think that approach is pretty inconsistent, /and/ it means 
that you effectively cannot build certain types of characters - a teacher 
who can't teach but has tenure, for example, or even a character who is 
much better at one aspect of their profession than another. 
 
Under your system, all professional mechanics that are good at fixing cars 
are /also/ good at paperwork, operating the register, dealing with the 
state bureaucracy to get their certification, etc. Under your system, all 
professional programmers are equally good at both hacking code and doing 
all the procedural stuff that comes along with being a programmer.  I can 
assure you from experience that this is not the case.  
 
J 
 
"One equal temper of heroic hearts,              http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will              jeffj@io.com 
 To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."    - Tennyson, "Ulysses" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo dub-img-6.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @dub-img-6.compuserve.com ip 149.174.206.136 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:13:55 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Which published villains do you use? 
Cc: "[unknown]" <CHAMP-L@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id LAA25783 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 47 
 
Message text written by BILL SVITAVSKY 
>They don't match my style, and I prefer to create distinctive  
worlds from scratch anyway. If I'm going to put the trouble into  
running a campaign world, I want the world to be mine (and my  
players', of course) through and through.< 
 
Could you explain a little how your style differs from that of all the 
published Champions NPCs? 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hil-img-5.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @hil-img-5.compuserve.com ip 149.174.177.135 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:13:59 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Which published villains do you use? 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id LAA25826 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 50 
 
Message text written by "Tim R. Gilberg" 
>       Well, I'm always up to pull Viper in.  At least a minor incident 
every other game.  Genocide is being saved with only hints at what they 
are up to, same for Demon.  Terror, Inc is nice for a lighter villian 
group.  I've also gotten some use from the Crusher Gang and Grab.< 
 
Could you give some examples of the "minor incidents" that you use to keep 
Viper visible in your campaign? 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo dub-img-6.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @dub-img-6.compuserve.com ip 149.174.206.136 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:14:05 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: More supplement reviews 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id LAA25791 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 48 
 
Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>   This is not one of Hero Games' -- nor Andy Robinson's -- best efforts, 
but at the same time it's far from the worst.  While the scenarios 
themselves are generally rather weak and the NPCs mostly uninspiring, 
there's an extremely helpful opening article on scenario design, and the 
scenarios to help spark "ways of thinking" that just wouldn't occur to many 
of us.  And, despite what I say above, most of the scenarios are good 
enough to run as a quick knockoff when you don't have anything else to do 
(though some adjustment would be needed for many campaigns). 
   If this book were larger (and more expensive), I'd say pass on it. 
Since it's one of the smaller (and less expensive) books in the Hero Games 
line, however, I do recommend it.< 
 
I've used a few of the adventures in Challenges for Champions, but some of 
them I don't think I'll ever use.  However, I absolutely love this concept. 
 I would really like to see another book like this, only with more 
"regular" superhero adventure ideas.  One thing I've noticed is that so 
many authors are concerned with making adventures that are unique, that 
really we have a shortage of "standard, straight-from-comics" adventures! 
 
>>* Invaders from Below 
   When I look at how much I like a supplement, the question I ask myself 
is, "What will this contribute to my campaign?"  A good supplement will 
furnish new rules, interesting characters (either new or updated), 
background material, or inspiration for scenarios.  Despite the fair amount 
of work and thought that evidently went into it, this book provides none of 
the above, at least from my viewpoint.< 
 
I think running the invasion could be fun, but my problem with this book is 
that the villains are mostly lame.  Maybe if I made my own villain team and 
reworked the "grunts" from this book, it would be more appealing.  Anyway, 
I ran two of the "foreshadowing" adventures from this book but never got 
around to doing the invasion itself. 
 
>* The Olympians 
   My take on this book is similar to IFB; however, I don't find it quite 
as utterly useless.  In fact, the only reason I find it as useless as I do 
is because I have no plans on using the Greek gods in my campaign at any 
level.  It does, in fact, provide some material that I can use as 
background, and I can see a couple of possibilities for individual 
encounters.  Your campaign could probably make better use of it than mine.< 
 
I have no interest in using Greek gods (I'm not interested in Thor or 
Hercules in Marvel Comics, either), but I thought that if somebody gave 
this a fantastic review, it might be worth another look. 
 
>   CP1 is a trio of scenarios that are designed to be run back-to-back 
(not 
in any particular order, though a recommended procedure is given). 
Spectrum, by Scott Sigler, is more useful for the supervillain group it 
provides than for the scenario itself (in fact, one of the scenarios on my 
website uses them).  The second, No News of a Thaw, is an odd little piece 
by Phil Masters using Inuit mythology; I didn't care for it, but others' 
opinions may differ.  The third, Menace Out of Time, is a time-travel piece 
by Dean and Dana Edgell, and suffers only from its lack of interaction with 
the rest of the Champions Universe (as these all do).< 
 
I ran the adventure with Spectrum (I saw your adventure on your web page, 
but haven't read it yet), and I definitely would like to use this team some 
more.  The time travel adventure looks nice, but I also was a little put 
off by No News of a Thaw (by the way, Phil Masters used to be a regular 
contributor in the Hero Games area on CompuServe, but I don't know if he's 
still there), I think because of the weird mystic theme.  My campaigns and 
my taste in comics have never included much in the way of magic. 
 
>   In CP2, Stan West gives of MAVRIC; Timothy Keating treats us to Murder 
in Stronghold, and Cliff Christiansen gives us COIL.  That Stan is the 
creator of CLOWN is reflected somewhat in his scenario about a 
self-actualizing computer, though he makes good use of foreshadowing and 
recurrence.  Timothy's treatment of a murder mystery at Stronghold is 
probably the best superhero mystery done to date.  And as for Cliff's take 
on COIL, well, it also shows that he's one of the co-authors of the widely 
(and deservedly) lauded VIPER sourcebook.  Would it help to say that I'm 
making use of all three of these sections in the early stages of my 
campaign?< 
 
I have CP2 but haven't looked at it very closely...it looks like I need to 
dust this one off real soon. 
 
>* Pyramid in the Sky 
   This is another one of the books that is interesting to read even if you 
never actually use it in a game.  It's designed as three scenarios that 
could be run separately, but are designed to be best run in sequence.  It 
starts with something just a notch above street-level, and gradually 
escalates to the foiling of a horde of invading aliens.  The street-level 
villains and the aliens are really the most interesting parts of the book; 
in fact, the two alien races shown would be fun additions for a 
high-powered Star Hero campaign (after the fashion of Star Trek: Voyager, 
which currently has to deal with Borg, Hirogen, and Species 8472).  One 
could also read it straight through and treat it like a novel; secrets and 
surprises are well-timed in the narrative, revealing them to the 
straight-through reader at about the same point that they'd be revealed to 
the PCs.< 
 
For some reason I was put off by Pyramid in the Sky when I looked at it in 
the store, but maybe I'll give it another look. 
 
>* Watchers of the Dragon< 
 
It sounds like an interesting book, IF you want a lot of martial arts 
action.  My campaigns usually have more of an Avengers flavor to them, 
though, so martial arts is not an especially featured archetype.  I prefer 
battlesuits and energy blasts....  The problem is, I think my players are 
interested in martial artist heroes, so I probably need to bring more of it 
into the campaign. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hil-img-7.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @hil-img-7.compuserve.com ip 149.174.177.137 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:14:35 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Hero Wish List 
Cc: "[unknown]" <CHAMP-L@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id LAA25838 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 49 
 
Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>   More Enemies books?  Maybe reworkings of the Enemies books by origin 
type (aliens, high tech, mutants, etc.), but I don't think we need a whole 
lot beyond that.  Any other characters (new or updated) should probably be 
limited to Ultimate books, geographic sourcebooks, and similar works.< 
 
I don't think my appetite for Enemies books could be satiated.  Even though 
there would be too many villains to use, it's still fun to look at the 
pictures, read the backgrounds, and most importantly to use them as 
examples of how to make your own characters.  I certainly hope there are 
more Enemies-type books on the way.  Maybe if they did more along the lines 
of the Zodiac book, which has less villains but more info about them? 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2 
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net&> champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: Tough? Lemme tell you about tough... 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:19:28 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 51 
 
Sounds like Sgt. P.  *is* the stuff that legends are made of... 
 
Jason Goode 
 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From:	Michael Nunn [SMTP:mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net] 
> Sent:	Wednesday, April 15, 1998 4:17 AM 
> To:	champ-l@sysabend.org 
> Subject:	Re: Tough? Lemme tell you about tough... 
>  
> >Maybe, but Joe Lumberjack or Joe Trapper would clean up on either of 
> them. 
> >Wilderness folk are tough, oy vey...;-). For example, my cousin, who 
> skipped 
> >a chainsaw off a tree, into her leg, through chainmail pants. Way cool 
> >scar...That's right, HER. Nowadays she works for the Ministry of the 
> >Environment, directing firefighting efforts in the summer, and animal 
> >control in the winter...did I mention the packs of wild dogs? Makes 
> soldier 
> >boys look sissy by comparison - and she tells me stories about the tough 
> >people she's met :-) :-) :-). 
> > 
> >Oh, and not all comic book artists are pushovers. Fred Perry (Gold 
> Digger) 
> >in particular was a soldier before pursuing his current career... 
>  
> Sissy's... gee I think those are fightin' words :-) 
>  
> I have to admit some soldiers aren't not the toughest people in the world 
> but I can tell you from personal experience that some of the toughest, 
> meanest, most dangerous people in the world are in the Military.   
>  
> For example... 
>  
> Take the case of Sgt P.  name deleted to protect the guilty :-) 
>  
> Sgt P played football at Alabama, he was Navy SEAL.  During the invasion 
> of 
> Panama he was shot, his wound caused him to be discharged from the Navy. 
> He 
> healed and joined the Army and went to Special Forces Q course. He was a 
> semipro body builder, he spent two tours as a Drill SGT.  I saw him 
> personally clean out a bar full of Marines and members of the 24th Infanty 
> Division.  I saw him pick up a 200 pound plus Marine with one hand around 
> his neck and smash him into the wall hard enough the guy was knocked out, 
> he 
> then hit him with the other hand...  This wasn't TV wrestling it was real 
> life. Kinda looked like the WWF, but alot more painful.  
>  
> Sissy huh?   
>  
> Oh yeah, SGT P. is a Fire Jumper when he goes home. 
>  
> Michael 
> Rising Force Publications 
> Herozine, The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist our recently updated web 
> site... 
> http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm 
>  
> "You have never lived until you have almost died.  
> And for those who fight for it, 
> life has a flavor the protected never know"  
> - anonymous 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo arl-img-2.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @arl-img-2.compuserve.com ip 149.174.217.132 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:20:23 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Champions Universe 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id LAA26259 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 52 
 
I'm trying to get a better feel for why people weren't happy with Champions 
Universe.  I flipped through it last night, and there were several areas 
that got me excited, but that may just be the nostalgia of seeing all the 
old books mentioned in one place.  It's fun to just read through the 
glossary in the back, and I think the art (mostly from Storn Cook) is 
generally more exciting than the usual fare.  With all that said, I haven't 
read the gritty details of any section of this book, and I haven't tried to 
run a campaign based heavily on CU (I use the published NPCs and 
adventures, but in the past have not done a good job of tying them 
together), so maybe I haven't been in the position to see where it fails. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo scud.pronet.net.au from cgtmljon@pronet.net.au server @scud.pronet.net.au ip 203.34.103.243 
Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Test.. 
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 01:42:41 +1000 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 54 
 
 
>  
> So how is things? Anyone place any Star Trek related games in HERO? 
>  
> Laters.. 
>  
> Mike 
>  
> ... Backup not found: (A)bort (R)etry (S)lap nearest innocent bystander. 
> ___ Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR] 
 
 
Well, i know some guy on here was doing a cross between TNG and the DC  
universe in PBEM format, and some other guy just finished a really nice  
Vehicle Sourcebook for hero plus (or is that digital hero) oh, and i've got 
a set of 
three dimensional air combat rules designed specifically with ST and SW in 
mind, 
but my hard drive crashes every time i finish it- and it's only a text 
file! :-<~  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo scud.pronet.net.au from cgtmljon@pronet.net.au server @scud.pronet.net.au ip 203.34.103.243 
Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Equipment 
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 02:01:16 +1000 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 59 
 
Hmm. . well, i'mdoing a set of superheroic level games which nevertheless 
have bulk equipment involved. i've given each player a 40 pt vpp bought 
around the comcept of grabbing stuff you see invarious ways. So, if you 
pick up an agentsblaster, it becomes part of your vpp if oyu have 
sufficient points. This allows for a deal of 
'heroic' gun-toting without an overload of equipment i have to 'tax' every 
few sessions.  
 
I even allow pc's to occasionall go past the vpp active point limimts for 
this pool-  
to represent very powerfuly but chrinocally unreliable stuff they may come 
across.  
 
 
 
 
>         I was wondering how other peoople handle equipment and the 
> points spent for it. 
>  
>         For me it depends on the type of campaign that I am 
> Gamemastering. If the campaign is a superheroic game then I feel 
> compelled to make up the equipment as a character going through all the 
> list of it's powers, advantages, and disadvantages. This way if a 
> Villian or Hero acquires the item I now how much it is relatively worth. 
>  
>         However, for more Heroic and low point level campaigns I don't 
> worry about the cost of equipement as much. If the character picks up a 
> gun, I just say "fine you have the gun" and it does whatever the gun 
> does. 
>         What brings this up is the fact that I was looking through a 
> copy of the never published Star Hero 2nd edition and they had listed in 
> it how much it would cost to give a ship of certain sizes artificial 
> gravity. The question is, outside of a Supers campaign why would this 
> matter? Am I wrong in thinking that it would be okay and not unbalancing 
> to just say "fine your ship has artifical gravity"? 
>         I know that as GM I can make what ever rule that I want, and 
> I'll do that anyway, but how do other GM's out there do it. 
>  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo scud.pronet.net.au from cgtmljon@pronet.net.au server @scud.pronet.net.au ip 203.34.103.243 
Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: "JASON SULLIVAN" <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu&> <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Test 
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 02:07:50 +1000 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 56 
 
 
 
---------- 
> From: JASON SULLIVAN <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
> Subject: Test 
> Date: Wednesday, April 15, 1998 5:05 AM 
>  
> Hi.  Anyone getting this? 
 
yup, me! hmm, anyone getting *this?* 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:15:49 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: More supplement reviews 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 66 
 
At 04:26 AM 4/15/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
>cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
>Subject: Re: More supplement reviews 
> 
>> Kinda cries out for a whole book devoted to say, Asia, for Champions, 
>> doesn't it? You could throw the Tiger Squad in, discuss Bhuddism, Taoism, 
>> Zen, Shinto, Confucianism, etc... 
> 
>Hmmm... I diubt it would ever get written.  Of course, my Wuxia Hero 
>proposal was going to include some of these ideas. 
 
   Actually, I have some notes and several HeroMaker files for a Far East 
Enemies book which would include the entire Tiger Squad, the Pacific Guard, 
and several villains and others in an area stretching from Korea to Papua 
New Guinea.  But that one's going to have to wait while I finish off other 
projects.... 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:21:27 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Hero Wish List 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 74 
 
At 03:28 PM 4/15/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
>Subject: Re: Hero Wish List 
>Cc: "[unknown]" <CHAMP-L@sysabend.org> 
> 
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>>   More Enemies books?  Maybe reworkings of the Enemies books by origin 
>type (aliens, high tech, mutants, etc.), but I don't think we need a whole 
>lot beyond that.  Any other characters (new or updated) should probably be 
>limited to Ultimate books, geographic sourcebooks, and similar works.< 
> 
>I don't think my appetite for Enemies books could be satiated.  Even though 
>there would be too many villains to use, it's still fun to look at the 
>pictures, read the backgrounds, and most importantly to use them as 
>examples of how to make your own characters.  I certainly hope there are 
>more Enemies-type books on the way.  Maybe if they did more along the lines 
>of the Zodiac book, which has less villains but more info about them? 
 
   Well, I am in the process of working up an update for VOICE, which will 
not only update the original characters from VOICE of Doom but also 
introduce several new ones and update at least a couple from other sources. 
 Given your above statements, I think that you will like this one. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:25:09 -0700 
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Hero Wish List 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 73 
 
At 01:11 AM 4/15/1998 EDT, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< I don't think we can look forward to much in the way of licensed products 
>in the Hero System; most are taking Fuzion. >> 
> 
>  Really, Bob? Is that so? I'm sorry you feel that way. I certainly hope that 
>our announcement this summer will change your mind. ;) 
 
   If you're going to announce a licensed product using the Hero System 
from a previously published setting, then I can tell you right now that it 
will.  And to state that I will be quite pleased to have it would be quite 
an understatement (well, depending on what that setting is, of course). 
 
><< while I'm not sure exactly what I'm going to do with it, I do intend on 
>getting it published in some form, almost certainly through either Hero Plus 
>or GRG. >> 
> 
>  Ahhh... more proposals. Good. Good!  ;) 
 
   I'm just not sure which.  It depends somewhat on what else I want to do 
with that setting. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo shell.infinex.com from rook@shell.infinex.com server rook@shell.infinex.com ip 207.201.8.250 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Which published villains do you use? 
To: DBStallard@compuserve.com (David B Stallard) 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:28:05 -0700 (PDT) 
Cc: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 57 
 
> >They don't match my style, and I prefer to create distinctive  
> worlds from scratch anyway. If I'm going to put the trouble into  
> running a campaign world, I want the world to be mine (and my  
> players', of course) through and through.< 
>  
> Could you explain a little how your style differs from that of all the 
> published Champions NPCs? 
>  
	I can't say for the above person; but I can guess. 
 
Feel? 
 
	I know for me they often just don't 'feel' right. We all have a 
certain mood we assign to the genre. Unless you sync with someone's elses 
genre interpretations, it's just going to feel wrong. 
	When I play in the CU I feel I'm in a X-Men/Avengers crossover 
comic. Well, my style prefs are more like an Impulse/Astro City crossover. 
 
	CU is an agent heavy world. More so than any of the comic book 
universes. Even Marvel. However, it also has several Marvel like elements. 
Stronghold, Primus, Viper, Genocide, Mechanon. These all have direct links to 
Marvel equivelants. Though the Marvel versions, even Shield (Primus) are not 
as prevelant. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:28:25 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Joe Cop on 200 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 67 
 
At 12:54 AM 4/15/1998 EDT, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< As soon as L&O comes out, my PCs who have law enforcement backgrounds are 
>going to wave it in my face and demand ridiculous package deals so that their 
>characters are as effective as "Joe." >> 
> 
>  Then you can wave it right back at them and point to the sections that say 
>"...with GMs approval..." "Optional" and so on. Come on, folks. It's one 
>example of how to do it. Can we please get over this paranoia and panic mind 
>set? :D 
 
   We can't help it.  We're Americans.  ;-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail.ucsf.edu from dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu server @mail.ucsf.EDU ip 128.218.95.23 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:32:48 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Dennis C Hwang <dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu> 
To: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
cc: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net&> 
        Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 58 
 
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Goode, Jason wrote: 
 
> Interestingly, I can attest that weight training for only 1.5 hours a week, 
> will get you to that level in about 12 weeks. 
 
That is interesting.  I would have assumed that that would depend on what 
you were able to lift before starting training, wouldn't it?  Not to 
mention the sort of weight training you were doing. 
 
> > I've assumed a sort of dead-lift/whole-body lift for the STR chart, since 
> > a 100-kg (220-lb) bench press would be way above "average"... 
 
--Dennis 
************************************************************* 
*   dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu   *   xenopathologist at large!   * 
************************************************************* 
*   So...you're keeping me alive because you don't know     * 
*   DOS.                                                    * 
*                                                           * 
*                       --Izzy to Gabriel                   * 
*                         THE PROPHECY II                   * 
************************************************************* 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:40:57 -0700 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Proffesional Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 72 
 
At 11:51 PM 4/14/1998 -0500, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote: 
>>> > How about PS: Lousy Teacher?  Such a PS would cover all the paperwork, 
>>> > administrative stuff, knowledge of the school districts, etc - but it 
>>> > would impart no actual ability to teach. 
> 
>I wanted to address this separately, since PS: Entrepreneur isn't 
>appropriate in this case.  PS: Teacher should in fact be a measure of an 
>individual's ability to teach, though you can certainly opt to make it 
>characteristic-based.  That would give a range of abilities dependent on 
>the teacher's PRE (or EGO or INT, however you choose to define it) and how 
>many points s/he spends to improve the base roll. 
 
   This gives me a thought that I think I'll toss out for consideration: 
   For the basic 2-point, 11- PS, the character can handle the basics of 
the profession (paperwork, license applications, and such). 
   For the 3-point, Characteristic-based PS, the character can do that 
*and* handle the basic performance of the profession. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo25.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo25.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.69 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:42:29 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 61 
 
<< Regardless, my teachers get more respect and appreciation than your cops >> 
 
  Oh, man.. that's cold.. <LOL> 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 09:46:34 -0700 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 71 
 
At 09:43 PM 4/14/1998 -0400, Daniel Pawtowski wrote: 
> 
>AverageMan:   
>   75% Damage Reduction, +20 PD/ED, Only vs 'unusuall' damage.  
> 
>  Averageman is immune to the mighty blasts of Dr. Destroyer, but has to 
>be very careful when crossing the street....... 
 
   Outch.  :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mln.lib.ma.us from bsvitavsky@mln.lib.ma.us server @mln.lib.ma.us ip 198.112.12.10 
X-Sender: nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:48:44 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: bsvitavsky@mln.lib.ma.us (Bill Svitavsky) 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 53 
 
 
It seems to me the confusion in this debate is resulting from people trying 
to interpret Professional Skills as consistent with one another and with 
the real world. They're not consistent, for the complicated reasons of game 
balance. 
 
Tim Gilberg argues that there should be a separate skill for Writing, 
probably PRE-based. There are, after all, analogous skills for Acting, 
Oratory, etc. In general principle, I agree. In fact, if I were playing 
Lost Generation Hero or somesuch I might make the skill as a house rule. 
But in most games, it's entirely reasonable (and within the rules) to make 
PS: Writer encompass both professional savvy and the ability to write. 
 
Why? Because writing doesn't often have an effect on adventuring - this is 
the "Hero" system, after all. Sure, a clever player might occasionally 
write a diatribe to expose or infuriate the villain, might write a love 
sonnet to win over an NPC, etc., but there's less opportunity for these 
acts than there's likely to be for those other useful PRE Skills. 
 
And yes, actual practice of a skill _is_ within the rules for PS. The BBB 
clearly states (on page 35) that "A plumber with  PS: Plumbing... could fix 
a broken pipe." 
 
The confusion results because some professions require an "ability" skill 
(Acting, Computer Programming, etc.) as well as a PS, thereby making the PS 
more representative of professional savvy exclusively. This makes sense 
from a game balance perspective, however; the writer gets to buy two skills 
in one because the character concept is not particularly convenient for an 
adventurer. 
 
I'm using Writing skill here primarily as an example. The same goes for 
other non-adventure oriented skills like PS: Teacher, PS: Lawyer, etc. 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo eamail1.unisys.com from andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com server @eamail1.unisys.com ip 192.61.103.80 
From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Politics in the game... 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:54:37 -0500 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 64 
 
Most Champions supplements, modules, etc. have a  
distinctly liberal bent to them (IMHO). Does anyone run  
their games more middle of the road or conservative? 
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
	"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"  
					- Joan of Arc's .sig 
     Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:00:47 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Tough? Lemme tell you about tough... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 68 
 
At 03:16 AM 4/15/1998 -0500, Michael Nunn wrote: 
>Take the case of Sgt P.  name deleted to protect the guilty :-) 
> 
>Sgt P played football at Alabama, he was Navy SEAL.  During the invasion of 
>Panama he was shot, his wound caused him to be discharged from the Navy.  He 
>healed and joined the Army and went to Special Forces Q course. He was a 
>semipro body builder, he spent two tours as a Drill SGT.  I saw him 
>personally clean out a bar full of Marines and members of the 24th Infanty 
>Division.  I saw him pick up a 200 pound plus Marine with one hand around 
>his neck and smash him into the wall hard enough the guy was knocked out, he 
>then hit him with the other hand...  This wasn't TV wrestling it was real 
>life. Kinda looked like the WWF, but alot more painful.  
> 
>Sissy huh?   
> 
>Oh yeah, SGT P. is a Fire Jumper when he goes home. 
 
   I want to see his write-up.  :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo arl-img-10.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @arl-img-10.compuserve.com ip 149.174.217.140 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:03:09 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Geographic sourcebooks 
Cc: "[unknown]" <CHAMP-L@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id NAA00884 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 62 
 
Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>   More Enemies books?  Maybe reworkings of the Enemies books by origin 
type (aliens, high tech, mutants, etc.), but I don't think we need a whole 
lot beyond that.  Any other characters (new or updated) should probably be 
limited to Ultimate books, geographic sourcebooks, and similar works.< 
 
I forgot to mention this before, but I don't see much use for geographic 
sourcebooks.  I know I'm talking to the wrong guy, since you have Northwest 
Champions on your plate, but I don't see the value in having all of these.  
Maybe one of them would be good, if you plan on basing your game in that 
geographic area, but the others will only rarely get used, on the off 
chance that your PC group travels from their base region.  I've seen on 
this list that the UK Champions book (I forget the exact name) is a very 
popular one, but I can't bring myself to buy it because I don't want to 
base a campaign in England--thus, it would have minimal impact on my 
campaign.  The same thing goes for the Champions of the North and European 
Enemies.  I would much prefer to have writeups that aren't 
geography-specific, so I can plop them anywhere I want.  
 
If anybody can convince me to pick up any of the above-mentioned books (or 
any that I left out), I'll be delighted, but right now it seems like they 
would be fairly useless to my campaign, unless I ripped out the villain 
writeups and "Americanized" them.  For international flavor, previous books 
have supplied Red Doom, Eurostar, and, uh, that one group with a 4-armed 
guy as leader and a hippie member named Flower (can't remember what book 
they are in).  I'm not sure that I need volumes and volumes of "outsiders", 
though. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:08:18 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: New Rules: Inactive Skills 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 69 
 
At 01:58 AM 4/15/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
>Cc: Champions Listserv <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
>Subject: Re: New Rules: Inactive Skills 
>>    While I like the theory, I'm not sure I grasp the mechanics. 
> 
> I'll try to explain. 
> 
>>    Suppose Captain Glory finally gets around to using his Archaeology 
>> degree, and goes out on a dig in England to uncover Camelot (something that 
>> happened in actual play, by the way).  How many points would he have needed 
>> for an 11- Roll beforehand?  How does he change the Skill from Active to 
>> Inactive?  Does the Roll change, or the cost? 
> 
> A skill taken as Inactive, for a starting character, is _FREE_. 
>However, as soon as it is attempted to be used in any way regularly 
>(beyond the one-time plot point, "Gee, I remember a way out of this mess 
>from my days as a Rutabega Salesman!") it requires the expenditure of XP 
>to get it to whatever level it was bought at.  This could get a character 
>in XP trouble quick, as they will never be able to spend it freely if 
>they're always buying off Inactive Skills. 
 
   So let me see if I've got this.... 
   In his earlier career as an archaeologist, Cap had a 14- Roll (based on 
his INT of 23) in Sci: Archaeology.  When he goes to England, he doesn't 
have to pay points for it, but as he brushes up on it he'd have to buy the 
Skill?  (IOW more or less like he was buying it from scratch, but with a 
different Special Effect.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:09:03 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Stupid Heroes (was The Average man...) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 75 
 
At 12:32 AM 4/15/1998 -0700, Chad Riley wrote: 
>Not to get completely off the subject but this thread title reminds me of 
one of 
>our fav. Silly supers NORMAL MAN! He was completely normal except that he 
had a 
>booming voice and a PRE of 50. He made many low end villains wet their 
pants and 
>he was fearless he'd run into burning buildings to save a lady's potted 
>plant...... 
> 
>Other Stupid heroes were: 
>Captain Invincible who, like NORMAL MAN, had base stats except for PRE 
(20) and 
>he had Telepathy (or mind control I can't remember) 15d6 always on AE that 
made 
>people think he was immune to all harm. He was killed by a team mate who 
tried to 
>smash a villain into his invulnerable teammate at superspeed.....SQUISH 
> 
>Armor Man: whose armor was OAF; he had a big red button on his chest that 
said 
>EJECT BUTTON. He was often shot out of the back of his armor in round one.He 
>latter bought down the Limitation but not being the brightest genius 
inventor, he 
>bought it to IAF and scribbled over EJECT BUTTON with "This in not an EJECT 
>BUTTON". 
 
   It reminds me somewhat of Snark, a hero with the words "HIT ME" written 
on the front of his costume.  He had a VPP that could duplicate any power 
or ability that he'd already been hit with (only once per hit, and for the 
exact same damage roll). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo brain.proaxis.com from cpartridge@proaxis.com server root@brain.proaxis.com ip 206.163.142.1 
X-Sender: cpartridge@proaxis.com 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:09:07 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Camille Partridge <cpartridge@proaxis.com> 
Subject: Suggested incremental damage idea 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 63 
 
This is an idea for an "incremental" damge house rule for the Hero system. 
This is partially in response to the recent discussion about critical 
hit options.  I would suggest using this house rule instead of a critical 
hit option in a heroic level game that uses hit locations.  I could also 
be used without hit locations in a super level game. 
 
The basic concept is that a "better" to-hit roll should increase the 
damage that is done.   
 
If you roll 2/3 or better of your to-hit roll, all 1's rolled on damage dice 
would become 2's.  Similarly, if you rolled 1/2 or better of your to-hit 
roll, all 1's and 2's on damage dice would become 3's.  This pattern 
continues for 1/3, 1/4, and 1/5 of your to-hit roll.  Here is a table 
with the numbers calculated out for those who think better that way: 
 
   (n)      (2/3 n)  (1/2 n)    (1/3 n)  (1/4 n)     (1/5 n) 
  to-hit     1->2     1,2->3   1,2,3->4 1,2,3,4->5 1,2,3,4,5->6 
  ------    -------  -------   -------- ---------- ------------ 
    3         -         -         -         -         - 
    4         3         -         -         -         - 
    5         3         3         -         -         - 
    6         4         3         -         -         - 
    7         5         4         -         -         - 
    8         5         4         3         -         - 
    9         6         5         3         -         - 
    10        7         5         3         3         - 
    11        7         6         4         3         - 
    12        8         6         4         3         - 
    13        9         7         4         3         3 
    14        9         7         5         4         3 
    15        10        8         5         4         3 
    16        11        8         5         4         3 
    17        11        9         6         4         3 
    18        12        9         6         5         4 
    19        13        10        6         5         4 
    20        13        10        7         5         4 
    21        14        11        7         5         4 
    22        15        11        7         6         4 
    23        15        12        8         6         5 
    24        16        12        8         6         5 
    25        17        13        8         6         5 
 
For example, assume that your to-hit roll is 12-: 
 
        If you roll 13 or above, you miss (just like always). 
 
        If you roll 9 to 12, you do the same damage as always. 
 
        If you roll 7 or 8, all 1's on your damage dice get changed to 2's. 
 
        If you roll 5 or 6, all 1's or 2's get changed to 3's. 
 
        If you roll 4, all 1's, 2's, and 3's get changed to 4's. 
 
        If you roll 3, all 1's, 2's, 3's, and 4's get changed to 5's. 
 
What do you (plural) think? 
 
Larry Woestman (sharing an account with my wife) 
Camille Partridge 
Gaelforce Scottish Terriers 
cpartridge@proaxis.com  
http://www.proaxis.com/~cpartridge 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mln.lib.ma.us from bsvitavsky@mln.lib.ma.us server @mln.lib.ma.us ip 198.112.12.10 
X-Sender: nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:26:40 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: bsvitavsky@mln.lib.ma.us (Bill Svitavsky) 
Subject: Re: Which published villains do you use? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 55 
 
David B Stallard wrote: 
 
>Message text written by BILL SVITAVSKY 
>>They don't match my style, and I prefer to create distinctive 
>worlds from scratch anyway. If I'm going to put the trouble into 
>running a campaign world, I want the world to be mine (and my 
>players', of course) through and through.< 
> 
>Could you explain a little how your style differs from that of all the 
>published Champions NPCs? 
 
Hmmm... Style is always a tough thing to pin down, but I'll try. 
 
In part, my style changes from campaign to campaign. I ran a rather dark 
superhero game a couple of years ago where all the supers had a common 
origin in a fertility drug used a couple of generations back, and the 
existince of superbeings had fundamentally changed society. (The former 
U.S. consisted of a bunch of small city-states ruled by superbeings.) The 
supers all had certain shared traits (characteristic minima, an ability to 
detect one another, etc.) and had grown up in a society where they were 
virtual aristocrats. The supers were also prone to psychological extremes 
and drastic physical deformity, and powers often (but not always) 
represented in similar ways, so that one speedster might have some unusual 
similarities to another. 
 
But what I was really thinking about is more subtle than that. My 
characters (PC's and NPC's) tend to represent my own tastes and interests. 
One of my villains might expouse a political view which greatly offends me; 
another might take a philosophy I believe in to an extreme. Sometimes my 
sense of humor comes through in my characters - most of my games have some 
satirical exaggeration to them. 
 
There are various other reasons I prefer to create my own worlds. The 
Champions Universe is strongly Marvel-influenced, while I've always been 
more of a DC reader. (Though I've read plenty of many publishers over many 
years.) The Champions Universe also suffers from inconsistencies inevitable 
in any shared universe - no real common structure to psionics or magic, 
hundreds of aliens with no clearly defined relation to one another, etc. - 
which I can avoid by creating a world entirely according to my vision. 
 
What's really important to me is that every one of my NPC's is a character 
I can really get into. It's not impossible for me to get into someone 
else's creation, but I just feel like the world is more consistent and more 
truly mine if I've created it from scratch. 
 
This might be somewhat unusual in a Champions GM (though I've noticed 
several others on the list seem to be similarly inclined), but it's 
actually the default view of most _players_. It's unusual for a player to 
run a character someone's created; it can be fun, and it works well for 
certain types of scenario, but there's a loss of a certain amount of 
creative control. I tend to feel the same when I'm game mastering. 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo shell.infinex.com from rook@shell.infinex.com server rook@shell.infinex.com ip 207.201.8.250 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions Universe 
To: DBStallard@compuserve.com (David B Stallard) 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:26:59 -0700 (PDT) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 65 
 
>  
> I'm trying to get a better feel for why people weren't happy with Champions 
> Universe.  I flipped through it last night, and there were several areas 
 
	It's not that we don't like it; it's just that we have our own 
stories to tell. Keep in mind that anyone who's been doing Champions since 
before the 4th edition has been doing it since before there was any official 
universe. 
	Before that point, some of the various books made attempts to tie into 
each other; but it wasn't all established as a set reality. 
	So all us old geezers got used to doing it on our own. And, things 
being what they are; we prefer it that way. 
	You could give me a universe that's the coolist thing since sliced 
bread (like an Astro City license, which will never happen due to the author's 
desires), and I'd still use my own. 
	Why? 
 
	Cause it's mine. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hil-img-4.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @hil-img-4.compuserve.com ip 149.174.177.134 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:30:28 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Soliloquies 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id NAA02065 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 70 
 
Soliloquies take no time in combat.  Does this mean that characters can 
talk back and forth to each other at any time?  In the past, I have allowed 
characters to make soliloquies only on their phase, because sometimes the 
PCs can relay information back and forth to each other too quickly if I 
don't (they could have a whole conversation between one move and the next). 
 Is this a good practice, or should I allow a character (PC or otherwise) 
to say as much as they want, whenever they want?  For instance, say BadGuy 
uses an Armor Piercing attack on GoodGuy.  Should GoodGuy immediately be 
allowed to yell to his teammates, "Watch out, BadGuy's laser completely 
ignored my armor!"? 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo jcs1.jcstate.edu from ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu server @jcs1.jcstate.edu ip 204.117.72.52 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 12:36:00 -0500 (EST) 
From: JASON SULLIVAN <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: X 2 effect magnetics 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-VMS-To: IN%"champ-l@sysabend.org" 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 60 
 
	What is the offical ruling on the following question: 
 
	A character that takes 'X2 effect: magnetics' being thrown by 
TK with the Sf/x of Magnetism would be affected as the equalivent weight 
capacity of the TK X2 or the equavalent STR of the TK X2? 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo arl-img-7.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @arl-img-7.compuserve.com ip 149.174.217.137 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:53:26 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions Universe 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id NAA03746 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 77 
 
Message text written by Brian Wong 
>You could give me a universe that's the coolist thing since sliced 
bread (like an Astro City license, which will never happen due to the 
author's 
desires), and I'd still use my own.< 
 
I don't think that's the general philosophy, though....  From what I've 
gathered, you and Bill Svitavsky (?) have your own worlds, but most others 
use at least pieces of the Champions Universe.  As for myself, I don't have 
the time or inclination to create my own world when I know I can't do any 
better than what's out there.  I do have time, though, to twist and mold an 
existing world to suit my tastes. 
 
>       So all us old geezers got used to doing it on our own. And, things 
being what they are; we prefer it that way.< 
 
I've been playing off and on since 2nd Edition, but I don't feel that 
Champions Universe has serious conflicts with any campaign I've been 
involved with.  Maybe because those campaigns have been really loose 
(probably too loose) in defining the world.  I'm not trying to defend CU 
(heck, I use the C:NM setting anyway, and might change to San Angelo when 
it arrives), I'm just trying to get a feel for why people feel it did a bad 
job of cementing the Champions universe. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo shell.infinex.com from rook@shell.infinex.com server rook@shell.infinex.com ip 207.201.8.250 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: More supplement reviews 
To: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Bob Greenwade) 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:56:38 -0700 (PDT) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 78 
 
> >> Kinda cries out for a whole book devoted to say, Asia, for Champions, 
> >> doesn't it? You could throw the Tiger Squad in, discuss Bhuddism, Taoism, 
> >> Zen, Shinto, Confucianism, etc... 
> > 
> >Hmmm... I diubt it would ever get written.  Of course, my Wuxia Hero 
> >proposal was going to include some of these ideas. 
>  
>    Actually, I have some notes and several HeroMaker files for a Far East 
> Enemies book which would include the entire Tiger Squad, the Pacific Guard, 
> and several villains and others in an area stretching from Korea to Papua 
> New Guinea.  But that one's going to have to wait while I finish off other 
> projects.... 
 
	Let's just hope that if anyone ever did it they actually had a clue 
on asia, rather than just learned it all from a Wolverine comic and a bunch of 
anime movies. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail1.geo.net from lizard@mrlizard.com server @mail1.geo.net ip 166.90.101.11 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 10:59:37 -0700 
To: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: Soliloquies 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 76 
 
At 01:30 PM 4/15/98 -0400, David B Stallard wrote: 
>For instance, say BadGuy 
>uses an Armor Piercing attack on GoodGuy.  Should GoodGuy immediately be 
>allowed to yell to his teammates, "Watch out, BadGuy's laser completely 
>ignored my armor!"? 
> 
Sure. It's totally in-genre. Characters can make speeches of virtually 
infinite length while the action in the panel takes less than a second. 
Scott McCloud's "Understanding Comics" goes into some depth on the peculiar 
time-distortions which the comic medium imposes. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo shell.infinex.com from rook@shell.infinex.com server rook@shell.infinex.com ip 207.201.8.250 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Politics in the game... 
To: andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com (Andreano, Keith         HIM, VA) 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:00:10 -0700 (PDT) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 80 
 
>  
> Most Champions supplements, modules, etc. have a  
> distinctly liberal bent to them (IMHO). Does anyone run  
> their games more middle of the road or conservative? 
 
	Really? You found them liberal? 
 
I found them a bit conservative myself. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo camel14.mindspring.com from cypriot@concentric.net server @camel14.mindspring.com ip 207.69.200.64 
X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:06:02 -0400 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> 
Subject: Re: Soliloquies 
Cc: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 79 
 
At 01:30 PM 4/15/98 -0400, David B Stallard wrote: 
>Soliloquies take no time in combat.  Does this mean that characters can 
>talk back and forth to each other at any time?  In the past, I have allowed 
>characters to make soliloquies only on their phase, because sometimes the 
 
Soliloquy takes no time.  However, Conversation takes considerable 
time.  The Soliloquy rule was created, I believe, with the intention 
of mimicking the stereotypical superhero banter that goes on during 
a battle ("Hah! You didn't think I would fall for THAT, did you?!") 
 
As soon as they start having discussions with each other, or with 
the bad guys, it is no longer soliloquy (Look it up in the dictionary), 
but conversation.  Conversation, IMHO should never be allowed during 
combat (unless you actually want to draw it out, one line per action 
phase). 
 
As far as the timing for soliloquy, I'd say if it sticks to the intended 
purpose, it doesn't really matter whether the speech occurs on an action 
phase or in between. 
 
 
======================  ================================================= 
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed  
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is  
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead 
======================  ================================================= 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-SMTP: helo owlnet.rice.edu from chip@owlnet.rice.edu server @owlnet.rice.edu ip 128.42.49.7 
X-Authentication-Warning: snowy.owlnet.rice.edu: chip owned process doing -bs 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:08:02 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Reply-To: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
To: Champions Discussion List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Soliloquies 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 85 
 
On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, David B Stallard wrote: 
 
> Soliloquies take no time in combat.  Does this mean that characters can 
> talk back and forth to each other at any time?  In the past, I have allowed 
> characters to make soliloquies only on their phase, because sometimes the 
> PCs can relay information back and forth to each other too quickly if I 
> don't (they could have a whole conversation between one move and the next). 
>  Is this a good practice, or should I allow a character (PC or otherwise) 
> to say as much as they want, whenever they want?  For instance, say BadGuy 
> uses an Armor Piercing attack on GoodGuy.  Should GoodGuy immediately be 
> allowed to yell to his teammates, "Watch out, BadGuy's laser completely 
> ignored my armor!"? 
 
It is incorrect to say that soliloquies take no time in combat, and belies 
a common false impression of how to interpret the Champions time system. 
A 0-phase action is not something which takes 0 time (although it can be), 
but is often something which can be done *at the same time* as other 
actions. This is the case with soliloquies. Similarly, two half phase 
actions should in most cases be interpreted as actions happening at the 
same time. One day I'll dig up my articles on this, but I've been having 
some trouble finding them. 
 
But I found this, a discussion of alternatives in interpreting speaking 
during controlled time. 
 
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 07:09:45 -0600 (CST) 
From: Darien Phoenix Lynx <chip@owlnet.rice.edu> 
Subject: RP: Talking and Linking 
 
On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Brad Allen wrote: 
 
> >>Doran:  <<Why don't you try handling the Kaphadorian the way you 
> >handled 
> >>his friend, Golth?>> 
> > 
> >Golth:  <<Hmmm...  That might be worth a try.  Vax, do you think you 
> >could grab his hands after I get him in a headlock?  That way he'd be 
> >less likely to try anything funny.>> 
>  
> Lyrdon: <<Whaaat?! CHOKEHOLD? This is a #$#!@ baby-f**ing @!#%* 
> demon-$@#$@%er with unknown ass-kicking powers. KILL! KILL! KILL!!! >> 
>  
> Lyrdon: <<Deep breath. I'm calm now. I'm waiting with the door open a 
> crack. I don't want to spoil the surprise. Golth, as soon as you I hear you 
> attack I'm coming in to back you up. I recommend someone, perhaps Marcus or 
> Doran, deal with Fanz by explaining to him what's happening and telling him 
> to yell to his family to get out of the house, which is no longer safe. If 
> he sides with the Kaphadorian, Marcus might need to shoot him in the leg.>> 
 
{ Wow, I really must be getting better at my mind link! ;) GM, am I right 
in assuming that we can only get short phrases across to each other in the 
middle of combat, assuming we don't want to blow phases? Or does it work 
at the speed of thought? Certainly the mind link overcomes most language 
barriers, but does it overcome temporal barriers as well? 
 
{ Talking is a 0-phase action, but that doesn't mean that it takes no 
time; it can and does, however, occur simultaneously with other actions in 
a phase (you know, talking and walking at the same time). A strictly 
realistic approach to talking in combat would allow players to speak no 
more than they could say in the number of seconds allocated to their 
current phase. So if Lyrdon were the micro-machine man, he might find some 
way of saying the above in three seconds, but then there are no guarantees 
of comprehension! However, using this strict approach, we also run into 
the problem of simultaneous conversation; assuming someone wanted to say 
something in a phase, no one else could speak in an overlapping phase 
without talking over him. And even further into reality, unless someone 
can anticipate what they think you're going to say in advance, they 
shouldn't be able to act on it or respond until a following phase. 
 
{ Relaxing the constraints of realism a bit, we can move to the more 
dramatic comic-book battle conversations. "Die! Foul Fiend!" and "Where 
have you taken Mary Jane!" are some examples, although you find the 
occasional "You and your pathetic Super-Team are doomed to failure, for I 
am the Mighty Lord Destroyer of Annhilation!!" These overlook simultaneous 
conversation and time constraints, and to some extent the temporal mapping 
of phases onto seconds, preferring instead to make each phase like a frame 
in a comic book. Final Fantasy Tactics gets even more liberal with 
speech--characters carry on entire philosophical conversations during 
their action phase... "Wiegraf! You're alive!" "Ah, Lynx, so good to see 
you again." "You've given up your ideals and become a dog for the church!" 
"You don't know how hard it is to fulfill your ideals without power! No 
matter how strong your will, it's not enough. You need power to make it 
happen!" "You say that, but even if you had perished and failed, there 
were people who believed in you, who followed you. They trusted your dream 
for a better future and you betrayed them. And for what? For the empty 
promises of the Cardinal? Strange bedfellows, you and the Shrine 
Knights... Miluda would be ashamed if she saw you now."  "How dare you 
speak of betrayal! It was YOU, you and the Hokuten, all nobles who 
betrayed us! We fought and died to free Ivalice from invaders, and your 
brothers, and the Prince, turned thier backs on us. And it was you who was 
the dog, eager to please your brothers by wiping us out! But now, the 
Shrine Knights have given me the power to return the favor. Miluda will be 
avenged!" <act> 
 
{ Did I mention that Final Fantasy Tactics is a F***ING AWESOME GAME!?!??!  
Doran/Dusty would really love that game. Awesome, complex, and intruiging 
story, superb music, good gameplay, and not-bad graphics to boot. } 
 
{ Anyway, back to the talking issue. The rule of thumb I follow in my 
campaigns is 25-35 words per phase, with no attention paid to talking over 
someone else. More generally, this means any number of people can talk in 
a phase and say 3 times as much stuff as they would normally say in that 
time frame, and others can act on it even in overlapping phases, to hell 
with reality. Lyrdon stepped outside even those generous bounds, though, 
so I thought I'd bring the issue up. 
 
{ I'm not trying to pick on Brad, though. Given Lyrdon's hyper state, he 
may very well be speaking as quickly as possible. Anyway, having brought 
up the issue, we can get the GM's official word on it. } 
 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:12:10 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Which published villains do you use? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 81 
 
 
> >       Well, I'm always up to pull Viper in.  At least a minor incident 
> every other game.  Genocide is being saved with only hints at what they 
> are up to, same for Demon.  Terror, Inc is nice for a lighter villian 
> group.  I've also gotten some use from the Crusher Gang and Grab.< 
> 
> Could you give some examples of the "minor incidents" that you use to keep 
> Viper visible in your campaign? 
 
	Streetwise characters get some word that they've been behind a few 
of the latest whatevers.  They've been in a running turf war with the 
Mafia.  They hit some industrial/technical target quite frequently.  They 
are caught running drugs on the pier.  They are sponsering certain street 
gangs.  They ambush some characters that they are hunting.  (I'd say 50% 
of the PCs in my various campaigns have been hunted by Viper, and close to 
that by Genocide.  I make all Mutants take Detects as Mutant and Hunted By 
Genocide) 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2 
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Dennis C Hwang <dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu> 
Cc: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net&> 
        Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: The Average man... 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:14:00 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 84 
 
Well, after I left the military, I let myself go all to hell.  I completely 
stopped exercising, put on 40 lbs., etc.  I don't know why, I just did.   
 
I then decided that enough was enough, and that my wife was probably going 
to start looking for a new mate if I didn't get my act together.  So, I got 
a bud who was a Phys. Ed. teacher at a local community college to work with 
me.  I bought a really good bench, an Olympic bar, about 300 lbs worth of 
Olympic iron plates, and dumbbells from 5 to 30 lbs (I tend to go 
overboard).  He came over every Saturday morning and worked me for about 1.5 
hours.  That's it.  I didn't touch the stuff or during the week.  At the 
start, I was definitely pushing my limits to bench 95 lbs.  After 3 months, 
I was benching over 200.  Might have been due to having been in good shape 
before, or a genetic predisposition to responding quickly to muscular 
overstressing.  Then again, it might have just been working hard for those 
1.5 hours every week. 
 
Jason Goode   
 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From:	Dennis C Hwang [SMTP:dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu] 
> Sent:	Wednesday, April 15, 1998 12:33 PM 
> To:	Goode, Jason 
> Cc:	Stainless Steel Rat; Champions 
> Subject:	RE: The Average man... 
>  
> On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, Goode, Jason wrote: 
>  
> > Interestingly, I can attest that weight training for only 1.5 hours a 
> week, 
> > will get you to that level in about 12 weeks. 
>  
> That is interesting.  I would have assumed that that would depend on what 
> you were able to lift before starting training, wouldn't it?  Not to 
> mention the sort of weight training you were doing. 
>  
> > > I've assumed a sort of dead-lift/whole-body lift for the STR chart, 
> since 
> > > a 100-kg (220-lb) bench press would be way above "average"... 
>  
> --Dennis 
> ************************************************************* 
> *   dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu   *   xenopathologist at large!   * 
> ************************************************************* 
> *   So...you're keeping me alive because you don't know     * 
> *   DOS.                                                    * 
> *                                                           * 
> *                       --Izzy to Gabriel                   * 
> *                         THE PROPHECY II                   * 
> ************************************************************* 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo arl-img-10.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @arl-img-10.compuserve.com ip 149.174.217.140 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:14:10 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Hero Wish List 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id OAA04999 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 83 
 
Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>   Well, I am in the process of working up an update for VOICE, which will 
not only update the original characters from VOICE of Doom but also 
introduce several new ones and update at least a couple from other sources. 
 Given your above statements, I think that you will like this one.< 
 
Seeing as I never had the original VOICE book, it'll all be new to me!  
Heck, I can't even remember what sort of organization VOICE is...  It's 
things like this where the Champions Universe book comes in handy--I'll 
have to look them up tonight. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:15:03 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Champions Universe 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 82 
 
 
> I'm trying to get a better feel for why people weren't happy with Champions 
> Universe.  I flipped through it last night, and there were several areas 
> that got me excited, but that may just be the nostalgia of seeing all the 
> old books mentioned in one place.  It's fun to just read through the 
> glossary in the back, and I think the art (mostly from Storn Cook) is 
> generally more exciting than the usual fare.  With all that said, I haven't 
> read the gritty details of any section of this book, and I haven't tried to 
> run a campaign based heavily on CU (I use the published NPCs and 
> adventures, but in the past have not done a good job of tying them 
> together), so maybe I haven't been in the position to see where it fails. 
 
	I like its "Where are thay now?" type of stuff.  It introduced the 
Crusher Gang, which has been very big in my games.  I also like the 
various info in the back where it at least gives names of some unpublished 
heroes and teams.  I'm going to write up the Bayou Brigade, one of these 
days. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo eamail1.unisys.com from andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com server @eamail1.unisys.com ip 192.61.103.80 
From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Paranoia! WAS: "Joe Cop..." 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:25:57 -0500 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 89 
 
>>example of how to do it. Can we please get over this paranoia and 
panic mind 
>>set? :D 
 
>   We can't help it.  We're Americans.  ;-] 
 
One look at our Federal Government and you know why! ^_^; 
 
"No matter how paranoid you are, you're not paranoid enough!" 
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
	"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"  
					- Joan of Arc's .sig 
     Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:26:17 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: New Rules: Inactive Skills 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 86 
 
 
>    So let me see if I've got this.... 
>    In his earlier career as an archaeologist, Cap had a 14- Roll (based on 
> his INT of 23) in Sci: Archaeology.  When he goes to England, he doesn't 
> have to pay points for it, but as he brushes up on it he'd have to buy the 
> Skill?  (IOW more or less like he was buying it from scratch, but with a 
> different Special Effect.) 
 
	Right.  Though most GMs would make him, if buying it from scratch, 
spend a few game sessions "studying".  This is just a method to add to the 
background of the character without the GM saying, "Wait a minute, you 
said you studied Astronomy, but you didn't buy it on your sheet.  Get rid 
of two points of Stun and take the Science Skill." 
 
	These are noted, but never really come into play.  If they do, 
they have to be paid for like normal skills. 
 
	For example, in my college courses I have gained 8- KSs in quite a 
few areas, though I don't really remember too much right now.  However, by 
picking the book back up and looking through it or my notes, I could 
quickly be back to that 8- familiarity stage.  I took Spanish in high 
School and my Freshman year of college.  I've lapsed and don't remeber too 
much, but when I hear Spanish I find it coming back.  If I'd spend just a 
little time, I'd be back to my old proficiency. 
 
	So I'd have the following: 
 
	Pts		Skill			Roll 
	0	KS: World Religions(IA)		8- 
	0	KS: Political Theory(IA)	8- 
	0	SS: Geology(IA)			8- 
	0	SS: Human Biology(IA)		8- 
	0	SS: Psychology(IA)		8- 
	0	Spanish, 2pts (IA)		- 
 
 
	See? 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo shell.infinex.com from rook@shell.infinex.com server rook@shell.infinex.com ip 207.201.8.250 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Soliloquies 
To: DBStallard@compuserve.com (David B Stallard) 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:26:21 -0700 (PDT) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 87 
 
>  
> Soliloquies take no time in combat.  Does this mean that characters can 
> talk back and forth to each other at any time?  In the past, I have allowed 
 
	Yes. It's to simulate the comic book feel of having a whole lot of 
dialogue per panel. 
 
> characters to make soliloquies only on their phase, because sometimes the 
> PCs can relay information back and forth to each other too quickly if I 
> don't (they could have a whole conversation between one move and the next). 
>  Is this a good practice, or should I allow a character (PC or otherwise) 
> to say as much as they want, whenever they want?  For instance, say BadGuy 
> uses an Armor Piercing attack on GoodGuy.  Should GoodGuy immediately be 
> allowed to yell to his teammates, "Watch out, BadGuy's laser completely 
> ignored my armor!"? 
 
	If youur simulating comic books, yes. In reality, it's darn hard to 
waste breath on useless chit chat when all your adrenaline is pumping to 
keep you alive and your lung are breathing so much they'll likely burst whilst 
your heart rate has doubled or tripled. Which is what any long lasting hand to 
hand fight ends up like. 
 
	A ranged combat, or a short hand to hand might be a bit different 
however. I've personally not experienced many of these so my expertise there 
is somewhat limited. :) 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo eamail1.unisys.com from andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com server @eamail1.unisys.com ip 192.61.103.80 
From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Players & GMs in Northern Virginia! 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:31:01 -0500 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 93 
 
I still want to run/play in a champions game. Since I live in 
Northern Virginia, I'm looking for players/GMs in the area. 
I received a few responses about this before, what I want to 
do now is finalize (if possible) just who is interested and 
available to play/GM Champions in the area. We would also 
need to set a meeting place/times, etc. RSVPuma! Thanks!  
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
	"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"  
					- Joan of Arc's .sig 
     Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail1.geo.net from lizard@mrlizard.com server @mail1.geo.net ip 166.90.101.11 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:35:49 -0700 
To: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com&> 
        bob.greenwade@klock.com (Bob Greenwade) 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: More supplement reviews 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 88 
 
At 10:56 AM 4/15/98 -0700, Brian Wong wrote: 
 
>	Let's just hope that if anyone ever did it they actually had a clue 
>on asia, rather than just learned it all from a Wolverine comic and a 
bunch of 
>anime movies. 
> 
> 
You mean those AREN'T historically accurate sources??? 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo shell.infinex.com from rook@shell.infinex.com server rook@shell.infinex.com ip 207.201.8.250 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: More supplement reviews 
To: lizard@mrlizard.com (Lizard) 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:40:44 -0700 (PDT) 
Cc: bob.greenwade@klock.com, champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 91 
 
> >	Let's just hope that if anyone ever did it they actually had a clue 
> >on asia, rather than just learned it all from a Wolverine comic and a 
> bunch of 
> >anime movies. 
> > 
> You mean those AREN'T historically accurate sources??? 
 
	Ok. Enough of that from the peanut gallery. 
 
If I could ever get myself motified to write, I'd love to do an asia 
sourcebook. The gaming industry has been one miserably inacurrate book to the 
next in this area. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mln.lib.ma.us from nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us server @mln.lib.ma.us ip 198.112.12.10 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:42:18 -0400 
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us> 
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Champions Universe 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 90 
 
David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> wrote: 
 
>>> 
 
Message text written by Brian Wong 
>You could give me a universe that's the coolist thing since sliced 
bread (like an Astro City license, which will never happen due to the 
author's 
desires), and I'd still use my own.< 
 
I don't think that's the general philosophy, though....  From what I've 
gathered, you and Bill Svitavsky (?) have your own worlds, but most others 
use at least pieces of the Champions Universe.  As for myself, I don't have 
the time or inclination to create my own world when I know I can't do any 
better than what's out there.  I do have time, though, to twist and mold an 
existing world to suit my tastes. 
 
<<< 
 
Thanks for spelling my name right, David! That's a rarity. 
 
I can certainly understand why you (and others) make use of the  
existing characters and materials; some days I wonder why I make  
so much work for myself.  
 
 
But for me, creating my own material is ultimately one of the biggest 
plusses of the Hero System. I like the world-indendence of the  
system, letting me make things work the way I want them to. This  
can be simply creating a superhero whose powers work the way I  
think they should, or it can extend to a Fantasy Hero game with a  
distinct magic system, or even to a campaign which doesn't quite  
fit any established genre.  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo gwa.ericsson.com from exucurt@exu.ericsson.se server @gwa.ericsson.com ip 198.215.127.2 
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:48:22 -0500 (CDT) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: Professonal Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 94 
 
 
 Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:  
 
>  
>    This gives me a thought that I think I'll toss out for consideration: 
>    For the basic 2-point, 11- PS, the character can handle the basics of 
> the profession (paperwork, license applications, and such). 
>    For the 3-point, Characteristic-based PS, the character can do that 
> *and* handle the basic performance of the profession. 
 
I don't agree with this.  I agree with the interpretation that PS as  
written in the current rules already gives you the ability to perform the skill, 
with the exception that 'particularly useful skills' such as computer programming 
ALSO require you to buy the skill separately.  
 
Curt Hicks  
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo camel14.mindspring.com from cypriot@concentric.net server @camel14.mindspring.com ip 207.69.200.64 
X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:49:14 -0400 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> 
Subject: Re: Politics in the game... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 96 
 
At 11:00 AM 4/15/98 -0700, Brian Wong wrote: 
>>  
>> Most Champions supplements, modules, etc. have a  
>> distinctly liberal bent to them (IMHO). Does anyone run  
>> their games more middle of the road or conservative? 
> 
>	Really? You found them liberal? 
> 
>I found them a bit conservative myself. 
>  
 
I'm going to have to read those things a little more closely. 
I haven't noticed any particular political agenda. 
 
I do know that as most of the players in our group are more 
conservative (libertarian, actually), we have a habit of playing 
it that way. 
 
There are exceptions.  I find that we play most city officials 
as pathetically liberal.  (oops.  redundant.) 
 
======================  ================================================= 
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed  
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is  
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead 
======================  ================================================= 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hil-img-7.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @hil-img-7.compuserve.com ip 149.174.177.137 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:50:39 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Which published villains do you use? 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id OAA07270 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 97 
 
Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
> My current cast of regulars include:< 
 
Wow, even in alphabetical order.  You must keep some organized campaign 
notes.  Who is Card Shark?  What book does he appear in? 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-SMTP: helo pentagon.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@pentagon.io.com ip 199.170.88.5 
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:51:22 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Grossly Complex problem 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 95 
 
 
Well, I'm working on my current project (Final Fantasy HERO) and I've come 
up against an interesting problem... 
 
I want to have a 'Gambler' type character whose special powers are random, 
based on poker hands.  How I'd like to do it is this: 
 
The player gets dealt a 5-card hand.  He makes the best poker hand he can 
out of it.  If he wants to, he can use that hand right then for the 
effect, or next turn he can take an action to discard and redraw up to 
three cards. 
 
Each hand would have a completely different effect (and a different power 
level, for that matter - the rarer the hand, the more powerful the effect) 
 
(Oh yeah...getting the 'Dead Man's Hand' - black aces & eights - triggers 
a rather nasty attack pointed at the PCs) 
 
So...what's the best way to handle something like this in HERO?  (i.e. how 
should I work the limitations?)  I loathe the idea of just waving my hand 
and saying 'it works', especially because it's a power only for this 
character. (If everyone had it, I'd be more likely to do that).  
 
Any help would be much appreciated.  Here's some thought's I've had. 
 
* Figure the probabilities of each hand.  The difficulty here is that the 
probabilities are drastically altered because of the 'draw' thing - given 
enough time, he could always get a royal flush.  I might be convinced to 
drop the 'draw' ability if I could find an elegant enough solution. 
 
The trouble here is that the Activation only gotd to 8-...maybe multiple 
activation rolls to get the right %?  Then again, there's a slight 
advantage in that he can start gathering the power and  
 
* Figure the amount of extra time that each hand would take to get, on the 
average, and charge based on that. 
 
* Buy all the powers fueled off of an END reserve, and mimic the drawing 
of cards by putting points into the END reserve (somehow).  Maybe each pip 
of END would have limitations.  It'd be pretty ugly. 
 
Ideas? 
 
J 
 
"One equal temper of heroic hearts,              http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will              jeffj@io.com 
 To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."    - Tennyson, "Ulysses" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail1.geo.net from lizard@mrlizard.com server @mail1.geo.net ip 166.90.101.11 
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 11:57:25 -0700 
To: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> 
Subject: Re: More supplement reviews 
Cc: bob.greenwade@klock.com, champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 92 
 
At 11:40 AM 4/15/98 -0700, Brian Wong wrote: 
>> >	Let's just hope that if anyone ever did it they actually had a clue 
>> >on asia, rather than just learned it all from a Wolverine comic and a 
>> bunch of 
>> >anime movies. 
>> > 
>> You mean those AREN'T historically accurate sources??? 
> 
>	Ok. Enough of that from the peanut gallery. 
> 
>If I could ever get myself motified to write, I'd love to do an asia 
>sourcebook. The gaming industry has been one miserably inacurrate book to the 
>next in this area. 
> 
Hey, do it! I suspect there really is good demand for "Champions Of The 
East" or the like, and if you can manage to mesh *accurate* cultural flavor 
with the paradigms of RPGs, it will be quite a feat. 
 
I suspect a lot of the problem is that people writing gaming books look to 
other gaming books as sources. How did GURPS China and GURPS Japan come out? 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mln.lib.ma.us from nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us server @mln.lib.ma.us ip 198.112.12.10 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:03:46 -0400 
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us> 
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org 
Subject: What are your favorite Hero-published characters? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 98 
 
 
As I've mentioned recently in the published villain & Champions  
Universe threads, I'm one of those seeming few who don't use  
any published villains, organizations, etc. in my games, preferring 
to use my own material.  
 
I do like to read through the published material now and then.  
I'm sure those of you who regularly use it know and appreciate  
the characters better than I do. I'm curious to hear what  
characters people really like. In the comics newsgroups, people  
can rattle on endlessly about the concepts and doings of their  
favorite heroes & villains; who catches Champions fans fancy? 
 
To me, a lot of the most prominent characters don't seem all that  
inspired. Dr. Destroyer is a thinly disguised Dr. Doom, Mechanon  
is Ultron, and even Foxbat (whom I like) is only a few steps  
removed from Ambush Bug (maybe not an imitation, but a conscious  
effort to create one of that type.) What Champs characters stand  
out on their own? (I'm talking concept, not rules construction.) 
 
While I really don't know these characters all that well, I do  
think Black Paladin and the Slug are pretty good concepts; they'd  
make passable villains in published comics. I also liked the  
woman nobody noticed in the Horror Enemies (I think) book. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo eamail1.unisys.com from andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com server @eamail1.unisys.com ip 192.61.103.80 
From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: More supplement reviews 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:04:57 -0500 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 102 
 
>Let's just hope that if anyone ever did it they actually had a clue 
>on asia, rather than just learned it all from a Wolverine comic and a 
bunch of 
>anime movies. 
 
But Japan is just like in anime!  
Aliens, Giant Robots, Space Ships,  
and hoards of hot babes with big, umm, EYES! 
At least that's the way us otaku would like it! ^o^ 
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
	"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"  
					- Joan of Arc's .sig 
     Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo dub-img-6.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @dub-img-6.compuserve.com ip 149.174.206.136 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:06:33 -0400 
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Soliloquies 
Cc: Champions Discussion List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id PAA08388 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 100 
 
Thanks for all the responses on this so far, but let me get more specific 
with my question: 
 
In the middle of combat, what if a PC1 asks a question of PC2?  Would you 
require PC2 to wait until his phase to respond, or allow him to respond 
immediately?  If he can respond immediately, then the PCs can essentially 
discuss tactics while the villains sit by and wait for time to "start up" 
again. 
 
In a related question, do you use "table talk" in your game, where anything 
the player says is assumed to be something his character says?  If so, then 
the players couldn't relay ideas to each other "offline" and implement them 
immediately.  If not, then it would seem that their characters immediately 
came up with a complex battle plan without saying a word to each other.  
Maybe this is where coded maneuvers (like "Cannonball Special" or "Manuever 
#9") come in handy.... 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo27.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo27.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.71 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:09:14 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Politics in the game... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 99 
 
<< Most Champions supplements, modules, etc. have a distinctly liberal bent to 
them (IMHO). Does anyone run their games more middle of the road or 
conservative?>> 
 
  Now this is an interesting observation. Do you have any examples? 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo16.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo16.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.38 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:13:18 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Soliloquies 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 103 
 
<< Should GoodGuy immediately be allowed to yell to his teammates, "Watch out, 
BadGuy's laser completely ignored my armor!"? >> 
 
  I think this depends on how you want your games to go. Simulating the comic 
books (with all that that entails <G>) would lead one to conclude that that 
use of solilogues would be perfectly acceptable. For one thing, it prevents 
the villain from getting blasted before he reveals his nefarious pla to the 
PCs. 
 
  "...and there's nothing any of you can do to stop me! Bwah hah hah hah!" 
 
  <BLAM!> 
 
  Thud. 
 
  "...oooo... maybe I spoke too soon..." 
 
  <LOL> 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo eamail1.unisys.com from andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com server @eamail1.unisys.com ip 192.61.103.80 
From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com&> "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Players & GMs in Northern Virginia! 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:33:24 -0500 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
I live just outside of DC (near Wilson Bridge) and I work 
in Reston. I will eventually move closer to work. So the 
Reston area (or anywhere in convenient driving distance) 
would be fine with me. It all depends on where the other  
players are though! ^_^; 
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
	"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"  
					- Joan of Arc's .sig 
     Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From:	Scott Nolan [SMTP:nolan@pop.erols.com] 
> Sent:	Wednesday, April 15, 1998 3:04 PM 
> To:	Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA 
> Subject:	Re: Players & GMs in Northern Virginia! 
>  
>  
>  
> Where in Northern Virginia?  
>  
> Scott  
>  
>  
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
> She loves me all that she can,   
> And her ways to my ways resign;   
> But she was not made for any man,   
> And she never will be all mine.   
> 	Edna St. Vincent Millay, Witch-Wife,  1917  
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  
> Scott C. Nolan  
> nolan@erols.com 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mars.superlink.net from why@saturn.superlink.net server root@mars.superlink.net ip 204.97.220.9 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Grossly Complex problem 
To: jeffj@io.com (Sakura <jeffj@io.com&> 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:33:30 -0400 (EDT) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.com 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> Well, I'm working on my current project (Final Fantasy HERO) and I've come  
> up against an interesting problem...  
 
Does this mean it's an actual published senario you are working on?  If so 
then my version of hand waving will not work: 
 
> I want to have a 'Gambler' type character whose special powers are random,  
> based on poker hands.  How I'd like to do it is this:  
>   
> The player gets dealt a 5-card hand.  He makes the best poker hand he can  
> out of it.  If he wants to, he can use that hand right then for the  
> effect, or next turn he can take an action to discard and redraw up to  
> three cards.  
>   
> Each hand would have a completely different effect (and a different power  
> level, for that matter - the rarer the hand, the more powerful the effect)  
 
Use a multipower for all of the combinations.  Each slot is an ultra.  Put 
the following limitations on the MP: -1/2 Only one power may be used at a 
time, -1 slot switched based on hand.  Include in the multipower a slot 
called: Does nothing (1u: change environment, no perceptible change 1", 1 
END) and assign all useless hands to it. 
 
Now, in play, use a real deck.  Every time the player draws a hand, 
determine which MP slot becomes activated, charge the END cost (thus the 
reason for "Does nothing"), and let the power happen.  Why did I choose 
-1?  Because it seems simple enough.  Multipower slots are so small in 
points that there is not difference between a Royal Flush (120 Active 
points = 12u, -3 Lim = 4u and 12u, -1 Lim = 6u) and King high (10 Active = 
1 u)  It should average out in the end.  If this bothers you give really 
rare hands (4 of a kind and higher) an addition -1/2 on the slot cost. 
 
Don't let it be more than -1 for the slot switch since the player can 
choose the "Does nothing" slot. 
 
"Does nothing" has the added bonus that if you decides to fold the hand it 
still costs him END. 
 
As I'm thinking about it, the "Does nothing" slot could also be called the 
"Draw slot": since it allows the character to draw up to 3 more cards. 
 
Hope that helped, 
  Joe 
 
P.S. Don't call him Gambler, Call him Stud, that's the game he's playing. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo22.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo22.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.66 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:34:02 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: More supplement reviews 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< If I could ever get myself motified to write, I'd love to do an asia 
sourcebook. >> 
 
  There are two venues for such a book... ;) 
 
<< The gaming industry has been one miserably inacurrate book to the next in 
this area. >> 
 
  Agreed. That's a good part of the reason we're developing Sengoku. Of 
course, that's a bit different genre than Champions, but hey... 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo15.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo15.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.37 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:43:13 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Joe Solider on 100 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< Surely just 8- for the rank and file. Only officers get the full skill.>> 
 
  Tactics is the small unit stuff. In my old unit, the brass wasn't tactically 
bright at all. But the troops... now *they* knew how to move, shoot and win! 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo pluto.nildram.co.uk from qts@nildram.co.uk server @pluto.nildram.co.uk ip 195.112.4.14 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Michael Nunn" <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net> 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 98 19:44:07  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Joe Solider on 100 points?!?!? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 101 
 
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998 00:50:47 -0500 (CDT), Michael Nunn wrote: 
 
>This for the most part is me.  I used my military backgound as a base and 
>did this write-up. There are several KS I might have been able to give 
>myself but I tried to stay at or near 100 pts. 
 
 
Surely what follows is for a SAS/Green Beret type? 
 
 
>Standard US Army Infantry Solider 
> 
>13	STR	3 
>14	DEX	12 
 
Surely 11 DEX 3 for +1 CV? 
 
>13	CON	6 
>10	BODY	0 
 
I'd give a 11 BODY 2 here. 
 
>13	INT	3 
 
Nope. Plain 10. 
 
>11	EGO	2 
 
Yes. 
 
>13	PRE	3 
 
Nope: there are plenty of soldiers who don't qualify; in fact, being a 
squaddie gives a negative in many situations. 
 
10   PRE    0 
 
>10	COM	0 
>5	PD	2 
 
Only 1 extra here 
 
4   PD    1 
 
>4	ED	1 
 
What's the justification for this? 
 
3    ED    0 
 
>3	SPD	6 
 
Nope, SPD 2 - because of higher DEX, they go first. 
 
2     SPD     0 
 
>6	REC	0 
>26	END	0 
>24	STUN	0 
>Characteristics Cost: 38 
 
Char cost 17 
 
>2	PS: Job Before Joining Military	 
 
Not necessarily - many join straight from school. 
 
>3	PS: Military Speciality	 
 
Just 2 points, surely. 
 
>2	KS: Hobby 11-	 
>1	Paramedic 8-	 
>3	Tactics 12-	 
 
Surely just 8- for the rank and file. Only officers get the full skill. 
 
1       Tactics 8- 
 
>1	Computers 8- 
 
Questionable. 
	 
>1	Orienteering 8-	 
 
Yes 
 
>1	Weapon Permit	 
 
Not necessary. 
 
>1	PERK: Top Secret Security Clearance	 
 
Ditto. 
 
>2	+1" Running	0 
 
Why? The extra Stun and End are good enough. 
 
>5	1 Levels: Small Arms,related group	 
 
Skilled troops only. Remember that normal civilians don't even have 
Familiarity, and so a soldier is +3 OCV 
 
7 points in Skills and 17 in Stats so far 
 
>44	PKG,"Soldier"	 
 
 
>(7)	WF,Grenade Launchers,Heavy Machine Guns,Rocket Launchers,	 
>	Man-Guided Missiles,Small Arms,Knives	 
 
Yep, but call it WF: Military weapons for 2 points 
 
>(2)	KS: Military 11-	 
>(2)	KS: Military History and Customs 11-	 
 
So far so good. 
 
>(12)	Commando Training	 
 
Hmmm.... This would make him a black belt, per NH. I'll be generous and 
allow two manoeuvers for 6 pts 
 
>(3)	Climbing 12-	 
>(3)	Stealth 12-	 
>(3)	Survival 11-	 
>(1)	TF,Parachuting	 
 
:} 
 
>(3)	Navigation 11-	 
 
No, you've already got Orienteering. 
 
>(3)	1 Levels: w/3 related weapons (M16A2, M249 Saw, M9 9mm	 
>	Barett,tight group	 
 
Nope, specialists only - see earlier comments. 
 
>(2)	PS: Forward Observer 11- 
 
I'd put this under Tactics. 
	 
>(3)	Rappeling  11- 
 
I'd suggest Familiarity if at all. 
	 
So, 23 points for the Package. 
 
>Powers Cost: 66 
>Total Cost: 104 
 
 
Powers cost: 30 
Total cost:  47 
 
Now round out with an extra language, or a KS. 
 
Disadvantages would be Subject To Orders (10), and Watched: Service 14- 
(15) 
 
Your writeup would be fine for a Green Beret/SAS type, but not for a 
squaddie. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo pluto.nildram.co.uk from qts@nildram.co.uk server @pluto.nildram.co.uk ip 195.112.4.14 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 98 19:50:06  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Knights 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 104 
 
On Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:44:04 -0500 (CDT), Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
>You seem really willing to give an awful lot just with the PS.  By 
>this estimation, PS: Doctor will be enough to do any and all medical 
>procedures  
 
With appropriate equipment and practice; PS: Brain Surgeon would be 
another Complimentary Skill, but an 'ordinary' doctor faced with having 
to operate on a brain tumour in the field would still use his PS: 
Doctor as a CS to his Medic skill. True, he might have a -5, but it's 
better than nothing! 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-SMTP: helo pentagon.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@pentagon.io.com ip 199.170.88.5 
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:57:45 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Grossly Complex problem 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
 
> > Well, I'm working on my current project (Final Fantasy HERO) and I've come  
> > up against an interesting problem...  
>  
> Does this mean it's an actual published senario you are working on?  If so 
> then my version of hand waving will not work: 
 
Eh? No, only for me and my tabletop group.  I might put the results up on 
the web if enough people are interested, but I don't have the time or the 
energy to try and get licensing from Square and Hero, let alone write 
it up as an 'official' book... 
  
> Use a multipower for all of the combinations.  Each slot is an ultra.   
 
The trouble here is that to have a really powerful 'Royal Flush' attack 
you have a lot of wasted points.  I suppose I could partially limit the 
Multipower pool at the higher levels...but that puts me back at the 'how 
much limitation' stage. 
 
> Put 
> the following limitations on the MP: -1/2 Only one power may be used at a 
> time, -1 slot switched based on hand.  Include in the multipower a slot 
> called: Does nothing (1u: change environment, no perceptible change 1", 1 
> END) and assign all useless hands to it. 
 
Actually, in keeping with the Final Fantasy games, 'High Card' is going to 
be a sort of booby-prize minor healing effect. 
  
> Now, in play, use a real deck.  Every time the player draws a hand, 
> determine which MP slot becomes activated, charge the END cost (thus the 
> reason for "Does nothing"), and let the power happen.  Why did I choose 
> -1?  Because it seems simple enough.  Multipower slots are so small in 
> points that there is not difference between a Royal Flush (120 Active 
> points = 12u, -3 Lim = 4u and 12u, -1 Lim = 6u) and King high (10 Active = 
> 1 u)  It should average out in the end.  If this bothers you give really 
> rare hands (4 of a kind and higher) an addition -1/2 on the slot cost. 
 
What bothers me is having the player spend so many points for a 
power he might never get to use.  I think the minimum I'll go with on the 
high-level powers is Activate 8- (-2) and NCC (-2) - that would make it 
seem to be rare enough... 
 
> Don't let it be more than -1 for the slot switch since the player can 
> choose the "Does nothing" slot. 
 
Actually, I'm saying he has to use the best hand possible, just to keep 
things simple.  The Gambler has little control over his magic... 
  
> "Does nothing" has the added bonus that if you decides to fold the hand it 
> still costs him END. 
 
'Fold' would only cost him the actions - but there's little reason to do 
that, unless he doesn't want to pay the END for the 'high card' healing 
effect...  
  
> P.S. Don't call him Gambler, Call him Stud, that's the game he's playing. 
 
Actually, it's 5-card draw.  'Gambler' is the name of the (for lack of a 
better term) 'character class' - the player will of course choose the 
name.  
 
Thanks for the help! 
 
J 
 
"One equal temper of heroic hearts,              http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will              jeffj@io.com 
 To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."    - Tennyson, "Ulysses" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo eamail1.unisys.com from andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com server @eamail1.unisys.com ip 192.61.103.80 
From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Politics in the game... 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:58:15 -0500 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
	>I'm going to have to read those things a little more closely. 
	>I haven't noticed any particular political agenda. 
 
	Some don't show it, some do a little, some its blatant. 
	I sensed it as an overall trend though (maybe its just my 
paranoia :) 
	Depends on the author, of course. 
 
	>I do know that as most of the players in our group are more 
	>conservative (libertarian, actually), we have a habit of 
playing 
	>it that way. 
 
	I do the same. 
 
	>There are exceptions.  I find that we play most city officials 
	>as pathetically liberal.  (oops.  redundant.) 
 
	Same here too! ^_^; 
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
	"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"  
					- Joan of Arc's .sig 
     Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo eamail1.unisys.com from andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com server @eamail1.unisys.com ip 192.61.103.80 
From: "Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Politics in the game... 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:32:05 -0500 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
	><< Most Champions supplements, modules, etc. have a distinctly 
liberal bent to 
	>them (IMHO). Does anyone run their games more middle of the 
road or 
	>conservative?>> 
 
	  >Now this is an interesting observation. Do you have any 
examples? 
 
	  >Mark @ GRG 
 
Good question. I'll look through some stuff tonight and either: 
 
A) Post a list of examples that I found. Or... 
B) Not find any and say that it was just my paranoia! ^_^; 
 
Just for the record, I'm basically a Libertarian. 
 
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^; 
	"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"  
					- Joan of Arc's .sig 
     Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:44:12 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions Universe 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:34 PM 4/15/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
>Subject: Champions Universe 
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
> 
>I'm trying to get a better feel for why people weren't happy with Champions 
>Universe.  I flipped through it last night, and there were several areas 
>that got me excited, but that may just be the nostalgia of seeing all the 
>old books mentioned in one place.  It's fun to just read through the 
>glossary in the back, and I think the art (mostly from Storn Cook) is 
>generally more exciting than the usual fare.  With all that said, I haven't 
>read the gritty details of any section of this book, and I haven't tried to 
>run a campaign based heavily on CU (I use the published NPCs and 
>adventures, but in the past have not done a good job of tying them 
>together), so maybe I haven't been in the position to see where it fails. 
 
   Brian's and Bill's comments aside, the main problem with CU is in its 
organization and application.  It fails to do what San Angelo and C:NM have 
since succeeded to do: explain *why* superpowers work, how they really 
affect day-to-day life (though this is at least attempted admirably), and 
draw most of the existing characters into a living, breathing, interacting 
world. 
   A few specific faults: 
   1. The given timeline takes all of the adventures that had been 
published to date, and put their events at about the time they were 
published, most of them centering on the Champions' adventures but others 
involving the Protectors or other NPC hero groups.  It would have been much 
better if the background events for most of them had been entered to lead 
up to those times, but most of them left open-ended.  (I do like the Day of 
the Destroyer and the Assault on Sanctuary being in the history, though, 
since they do affect other events.) 
   2. The characters provided should have been enough to base a campaign 
around by themselves, and this was far from the case.  Mostly it was a 
couple of characters who had been mentioned as example characters in the 
Hero System Rulebook, and updates of some old characters from 3rd edition 
supplements. 
   3. Often characters, groups, or alien races are thrown together with 
little attention given to how compatible their write-ups are.  Specific 
examples (and arguably the most blatant) include Lionslayer recruiting 
Deathmask into VOICE (given their original write-ups, the two would be 
enemies) and making Orion the Hunter from an alternate race on the same 
planet as Obsidian (I can see plenty of reason to believe this to not be 
the case). 
   4. Virtually every character and institution ever published by Hero 
Games was included.  This makes it had to practice forward-consistency; it 
would have been much better (in my opinion at least) to only include those 
characters and institutions that were actually created by the Hero Guys, or 
by someone who doesn't mind having their creations become a part of the 
Champions Universe on a continuing basis.  (For the latter category we can 
start myself; I think we can probably also include Chris Avellone, Patrick 
Bradley, Sean Fannon, Scott Heine, Scott Jamison, Steve Long, Phil Masters, 
Steve Perrin, and Andrew Robinson.  I'd want to ask them, though, just as 
I'd want to ask as many of the other one-time authors as I could find.) 
   Now, I've been of a mind to try my hand at a second edition of a guide 
to the Champions Universe (a special Hero Plus edition specifically for 
those of us who happen to like it, at least in principle or as a place to 
visit).  In fact, I've managed to talk Steve Peterson into letting me do 
such a project, and I have a few notes down.  I'm starting to have second 
thoughts, though, given how tepid the response has been here about the book 
and concept in general. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2 
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Cc: Champions Discussion List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Soliloquies 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:50:54 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
We only allow brief stuff:  "Look out!"  "Get above him!"  "Don't touch 
her!"  "That one's mine!"  "Flash its eyes!" 
 
We don't allow letting them do stuff like:  "Hey, you circle around and get 
behind him.  The two of us will try to maneuver him onto the manhole cover 
so Sewer Urchin can hit him from below.  Then the Incredible Bulk will jump 
on top of his head and Fire Finger will finish him off!"   
 
No table talk related to the current tactical situation is allowed unless 
its a rules question, power use interpretation, a question about the 
environment, or something like that. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From:	David B Stallard [SMTP:DBStallard@compuserve.com] 
> Sent:	Wednesday, April 15, 1998 3:07 PM 
> To:	Goode, Jason 
> Cc:	Champions Discussion List 
> Subject:	Re: Soliloquies 
>  
> Thanks for all the responses on this so far, but let me get more specific 
> with my question: 
>  
> In the middle of combat, what if a PC1 asks a question of PC2?  Would you 
> require PC2 to wait until his phase to respond, or allow him to respond 
> immediately?  If he can respond immediately, then the PCs can essentially 
> discuss tactics while the villains sit by and wait for time to "start up" 
> again. 
>  
> In a related question, do you use "table talk" in your game, where 
> anything 
> the player says is assumed to be something his character says?  If so, 
> then 
> the players couldn't relay ideas to each other "offline" and implement 
> them 
> immediately.  If not, then it would seem that their characters immediately 
> came up with a complex battle plan without saying a word to each other.  
> Maybe this is where coded maneuvers (like "Cannonball Special" or 
> "Manuever 
> #9") come in handy.... 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:53:48 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Soliloquies 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 05:45 PM 4/15/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
>Subject: Soliloquies 
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
> 
>Soliloquies take no time in combat.  Does this mean that characters can 
>talk back and forth to each other at any time?  In the past, I have allowed 
>characters to make soliloquies only on their phase, because sometimes the 
>PCs can relay information back and forth to each other too quickly if I 
>don't (they could have a whole conversation between one move and the next). 
> Is this a good practice, or should I allow a character (PC or otherwise) 
>to say as much as they want, whenever they want?  For instance, say BadGuy 
>uses an Armor Piercing attack on GoodGuy.  Should GoodGuy immediately be 
>allowed to yell to his teammates, "Watch out, BadGuy's laser completely 
>ignored my armor!"? 
 
   It depends on the feel you want.  The usual Silver Age practice was to 
have characters able to say anything whenever they were interacting with 
others -- when they made a move or attacked, they they got attacked, or 
when another character (in one of the other two categories) addressed them. 
 The most blatantly ridiculous example that I can remember came when Ultra 
Boy explained what he was doing with his freeze-breath *while* he was doing 
it!  And I think it was in the Golden Age that the original Captain Marvel 
traded an "after you, Alphonse" with Junior while they teamed up to 
overwhelm a gang of thugs. 
   If you want something more realistic in this sense, then reduce the 
opportunities the characters have for talking.  In a television or movie 
type of setting, making a quick soliloquy would probably be a half Phase, 
while a longer one would take a full Phase.  Yours is closer to the 
"animated television" style, where characters can speak up when they have 
an action phase. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:57:05 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Which published villains do you use? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 07:07 PM 4/15/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
>Subject: Re: Which published villains do you use? 
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
> 
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>> My current cast of regulars include:< 
> 
>Wow, even in alphabetical order.  You must keep some organized campaign 
>notes.  Who is Card Shark?  What book does he appear in? 
 
   Dark Champions. 
   (I also have some planned action from local La Cosa Nostra and yakuza 
gangs.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:59:18 -0700 
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Champions Universe 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 02:42 PM 4/15/1998 -0400, BILL SVITAVSKY wrote: 
>I don't think that's the general philosophy, though....  From what I've 
>gathered, you and Bill Svitavsky (?) have your own worlds, but most others 
>use at least pieces of the Champions Universe.  As for myself, I don't have 
>the time or inclination to create my own world when I know I can't do any 
>better than what's out there.  I do have time, though, to twist and mold an 
>existing world to suit my tastes. 
> 
><<< 
> 
>Thanks for spelling my name right, David! That's a rarity. 
 
   B-I-L-L.  What's so hard about that?  ;-] 
 
>I can certainly understand why you (and others) make use of the  
>existing characters and materials; some days I wonder why I make  
>so much work for myself. 
> 
>But for me, creating my own material is ultimately one of the biggest 
>plusses of the Hero System. I like the world-indendence of the  
>system, letting me make things work the way I want them to. This  
>can be simply creating a superhero whose powers work the way I  
>think they should, or it can extend to a Fantasy Hero game with a  
>distinct magic system, or even to a campaign which doesn't quite  
>fit any established genre. 
 
   Personally, I like both opportunities. 
   Using the Champions Universe is, for me, a lot of fun because there are 
so many possibilities for what can be done. 
   On the other hand, I expect Chaos Theory to be a blast, since it will 
all be from the most warped corners of my own imagination.... 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 15 Apr 1998 17:10:31 -0400 
Lines: 32 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Tim R Gilberg writes: 
 
> 	I'd have to disagree.  Being unable to teach means you have to be 
> better at "looking good".  They'd have the 11- PS to get and keep the job, 
> and nothing in "Teaching". 
 
Back up.  "PS: <insert job here>" is the skill required to perform that 
job.  "PS: Teacher" is the skill required to be a teacher. 
 
Getting the job is another matter entirely.  A lousy teacher (PS: Teacher 
8- or worse) might have Acting sufficient to be a convincing liar, or the 
schooll that hires him might be so desperate for bodies that they would 
have hired anyone that applied.  There are lots of reasons why an 
incompetant teacher might be hired, but none of them change the fact that 
"PS: Teacher" is the one skill required to *BE* a teacher. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCUAwUBNTUiRp6VRH7BJMxHAQG7CAP2PPZzR5sPeKuyBLS4fH8ewBv6UkPJN7Fq 
EC7Hq13Iqw7s603Tx3OsqlSal8SAsnwCO7flE/t64B19WehXmSIw05m4O3HORlRZ 
IX+LE0M6YH9Q7JQ+iIGJ3mtAjvWS5trL/wF1EV7d3OP8GPD+04xm42jgh9GMGfBA 
nD43Z/ZRzQ== 
=J6i8 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:12:36 -0700 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Grossly Complex problem 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 01:51 PM 4/15/1998 -0500, Sakura wrote: 
> 
>Well, I'm working on my current project (Final Fantasy HERO) and I've come 
>up against an interesting problem... 
> 
>I want to have a 'Gambler' type character whose special powers are random, 
>based on poker hands.  How I'd like to do it is this: 
> 
>The player gets dealt a 5-card hand.  He makes the best poker hand he can 
>out of it.  If he wants to, he can use that hand right then for the 
>effect, or next turn he can take an action to discard and redraw up to 
>three cards. 
> 
>Each hand would have a completely different effect (and a different power 
>level, for that matter - the rarer the hand, the more powerful the effect) 
> 
>(Oh yeah...getting the 'Dead Man's Hand' - black aces & eights - triggers 
>a rather nasty attack pointed at the PCs) 
> 
>So...what's the best way to handle something like this in HERO?  (i.e. how 
>should I work the limitations?)  I loathe the idea of just waving my hand 
>and saying 'it works', especially because it's a power only for this 
>character. (If everyone had it, I'd be more likely to do that).  
> 
>Any help would be much appreciated.  Here's some thought's I've had. 
> 
>* Figure the probabilities of each hand.  The difficulty here is that the 
>probabilities are drastically altered because of the 'draw' thing - given 
>enough time, he could always get a royal flush.  I might be convinced to 
>drop the 'draw' ability if I could find an elegant enough solution. 
> 
>The trouble here is that the Activation only gotd to 8-...maybe multiple 
>activation rolls to get the right %?  Then again, there's a slight 
>advantage in that he can start gathering the power and  
> 
>* Figure the amount of extra time that each hand would take to get, on the 
>average, and charge based on that. 
> 
>* Buy all the powers fueled off of an END reserve, and mimic the drawing 
>of cards by putting points into the END reserve (somehow).  Maybe each pip 
>of END would have limitations.  It'd be pretty ugly. 
 
   This is an ugly problem, but not as ugly as you think. 
   Yes, figuring the probabilities of each hand and simply basing the 
allowed Active Points based on that does allow him to eventually get a 
Royal Flush with time.  But the key phrase here is, "with time." 
   The END Reserve thing would be pretty awful too.  Forget about it. 
   Doing something close to your second option would probably be ideal, if 
you have the mathematical wherewithal to do it.  Create an all-ultra 
Multipower, with the Active Points on each Power based on the odds of 
getting the appropriate hand (1/10 the odds, square root of the odds, or 
whatever).  Give the whole thing OAF: Poker Deck.  If you're allowing a 
Power for "nothing" (probably a small, cosmetic CE), then let that level 
stand as-is; for each level from a simple pair on up, give a cumulative 
-1/4 Limitation for "Must Have [Appropriate Hand] or Better." 
   You're probably thinking that this would be horribly messy in the 
character creation process.  You're right.  The nice thing about character 
creation in any RPG system, though, is that you only have to do it once. 
If you have to go through a hairy time for character creation but the power 
still works smoothly during actual play, then it'd be worth it (that's why 
I recommended nixing the END Reserve idea; it'd be too much trouble during 
play). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 15 Apr 1998 17:13:55 -0400 
Lines: 28 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Tim R Gilberg writes: 
 
> 	But a KS doesn't give one ability, it gives one knowledge.  And 
> the study of teaching (Pedantics?) is a knowledge all of its own.  This 
> is a place for a new PRE-based skill, based off of Acting, Conversation, 
> Oratory, etc. 
 
Nah... Oratory is just a very good complimentary skill roll for PS: Teacher 
(my dad was good at that :).  Acting might be useful for the "wacky" type 
of teacher.  Conversation tends to be a one-on-one skill, not so good in 
the classroom. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNTUjD56VRH7BJMxHAQEZPAP+PIJxaZ1ykXQxXz/vpQ1UugVXolU/4p9o 
TSpaqdRP7ssKxJFEFu54SSvEzLQxoq73y9Ufq0Nec2weEic9+KT/EWUaMCGxVDnR 
0dHrCnZ/d7ppPwZhAuU6OEkqEoR2qUSZTbGaK3scXrsboYY3he6hXtLcuG3jAtoa 
JrKOC4S3LPs= 
=nhfM 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:17:09 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: More supplement reviews 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:56 AM 4/15/1998 -0700, Brian Wong wrote: 
>> >> Kinda cries out for a whole book devoted to say, Asia, for Champions, 
>> >> doesn't it? You could throw the Tiger Squad in, discuss Bhuddism, 
Taoism, 
>> >> Zen, Shinto, Confucianism, etc... 
>> > 
>> >Hmmm... I diubt it would ever get written.  Of course, my Wuxia Hero 
>> >proposal was going to include some of these ideas. 
>>  
>>    Actually, I have some notes and several HeroMaker files for a Far East 
>> Enemies book which would include the entire Tiger Squad, the Pacific Guard, 
>> and several villains and others in an area stretching from Korea to Papua 
>> New Guinea.  But that one's going to have to wait while I finish off other 
>> projects.... 
> 
> Let's just hope that if anyone ever did it they actually had a clue 
>on asia, rather than just learned it all from a Wolverine comic and a 
bunch of 
>anime movies. 
 
   Actually most of my current notes (which are basically just sketches) 
come from the Britannica and World Book Encyclopedias, and periodicals 
about individual countries put out by the US Department of State and the 
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, all of which was available at 
my local library.  I could do a little more research, but for such a large 
scope not much more detail than what I've been doing would be needed. 
(Remember, this is really supposed to be an Enemies book and not a regional 
sourcebook, at least by my plan.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:19:11 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: More supplement reviews 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:40 AM 4/15/1998 -0700, Brian Wong wrote: 
>> > Let's just hope that if anyone ever did it they actually had a clue 
>> >on asia, rather than just learned it all from a Wolverine comic and a 
>> bunch of 
>> >anime movies. 
>> > 
>> You mean those AREN'T historically accurate sources??? 
> 
> Ok. Enough of that from the peanut gallery. 
> 
>If I could ever get myself motified to write, I'd love to do an asia 
>sourcebook. The gaming industry has been one miserably inacurrate book to the 
>next in this area. 
 
   Go ahead.  I'd even be willing to share some of my notes, or trash them. 
 (I suspect that your full-fledged sourcebook would have a somewhat 
different geographical scope than I had planned for my Far East Enemies 
book.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 15 Apr 1998 17:20:57 -0400 
Lines: 44 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Sakura  writes: 
 
> The 'Mechanic' skill is posessed by any back-yard auto mechanic - my 
> father, for instance, would probably have it at a decent level.  It 
> covers fixing cars, and that's it. 
 
Actually, "Mechanic" is a more general skill.  It applies to repairing all 
sorts of mechanical devices. 
 
> PS: Mechanic would cover: ordering parts from NAPA, operating the cash 
> register, 
 
Um, no.  A trained chimpanzee can run a cash register :). 
 
> probably operating some of the 'professional-level' machinery, how to 
> handle warranty stuff, how to do auto & emissions inspections, etc. 
 
This is the skill that any auto mechanic will have, in addition to 
Mechanics.  It puts a lot of practical knowledge specific to automobiles in 
the mechanic's posession. 
 
Mechanics is the ability to fix a problem. 
 
PS: Auto Mechanic is the ability to correctly diagnose the problem so that 
it can be fixed efficiently, effectively, and correctly.  It also covers 
all the tools in the shop, so that the mechanic will use the most 
appropriate tools for each step in the repair. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNTUkuJ6VRH7BJMxHAQGQmAQAiD51nqyQ48beA4xPWyHV3EvD/B/JQprb 
yspzdeGIL4OfjwvQTfHJdFw1HXQUv+/tdf12c3KcvTOclmZfmelX45FCtLxXtEmZ 
6Tx7EKuAV2JjrEfip+39zA9IyCr6yjeVTQ8Nmgt62O0WmATkfqz9m7icFZIzk7dZ 
2RcZO8b0ORc= 
=TAV/ 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:21:25 -0700 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Politics in the game... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:54 AM 4/15/1998 -0500, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA wrote: 
>Most Champions supplements, modules, etc. have a  
>distinctly liberal bent to them (IMHO). Does anyone run  
>their games more middle of the road or conservative? 
 
   I've generally tended to avoid political themes in my gaming, so I 
really can't give you any concrete feedback on it. Once I get the 
Justifiers campaign going, though, I'll be having a gently conservative 
push in those cases where such themes do appear. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 15 Apr 1998 17:22:38 -0400 
Lines: 23 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Bob Greenwade writes: 
 
>    For the basic 2-point, 11- PS, the character can handle the basics of 
> the profession (paperwork, license applications, and such). 
 
That is Bureacracy, not Teaching. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNTUlHJ6VRH7BJMxHAQEq8gP/YXepqQqKNV1CNRpViZ0CSNbgHNNkDb4/ 
JQT9sSxApMmkQIVeaJJXdcMXan5g4oV1EFZpM1g+lJURacK3UQu/GdLC9TE5FSsL 
EVFCvDSvuUi4DcLl2xbEY434ysVzXNX25RfQwhgqx6duGzm2SaiX/yb8Qx0BKcCT 
ls0mDFGGE2E= 
=T0PQ 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo shell.infinex.com from rook@shell.infinex.com server rook@shell.infinex.com ip 207.201.8.250 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: Joe Solider on 100 points?!?!? 
To: GoldRushG@aol.com (GoldRushG) 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:32:10 -0700 (PDT) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>  
> << Surely just 8- for the rank and file. Only officers get the full skill.>> 
>  
>   Tactics is the small unit stuff. In my old unit, the brass wasn't tactically 
> bright at all. But the troops... now *they* knew how to move, shoot and win! 
> 
 
	I'd agree here. Officiers know strategy 
("Johnson, send a few thousand of em in there and give me a body count when it's 
all over. Somebody give my secretary those pretyped death notices so she can 
stamp my name on em.") :) 
 
	But have no clue on which way a gun even points. :) 
 
	A pilot would have tactics for airial combat though. ussually 
a few points under their brown nose skill. :) 
 
	Ussually an officer in a combat zone is a good sign somebody's going 
to bite it. You want a high tactics skill, get yourself one of those grizzled 
old Senior Msgt types. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo shell.infinex.com from rook@shell.infinex.com server rook@shell.infinex.com ip 207.201.8.250 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: More supplement reviews 
To: lizard@mrlizard.com (Lizard) 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:46:18 -0700 (PDT) 
Cc: bob.greenwade@klock.com, champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> >> >	Let's just hope that if anyone ever did it they actually had a clue 
> >> >on asia, rather than just learned it all from a Wolverine comic and a 
> >> bunch of 
> >> >anime movies. 
> >> > 
> >If I could ever get myself motified to write, I'd love to do an asia 
> >sourcebook. The gaming industry has been one miserably inacurrate book to the 
> >next in this area. 
> > 
> Hey, do it! I suspect there really is good demand for "Champions Of The 
> East" or the like, and if you can manage to mesh *accurate* cultural flavor 
> with the paradigms of RPGs, it will be quite a feat. 
> 
	Well, first I'd have to get over being motified (whatever that is), 
and get down to being 'motivated'. :) 
  
> I suspect a lot of the problem is that people writing gaming books look to 
> other gaming books as sources. How did GURPS China and GURPS Japan come out? 
> 
	They were decent, and ocaisionally even accurate. 
 
The problem is twofold. 
 
1. Most westerners have very little clue on asia. That's the nature of our 
	society. By converse, most asian societies today study the west in 
	great detail. 
 
2. Asia is a living breathing place. It's not today what it was 500 years ago, 
	let alone even 5 years ago. Most of the stuff I see on asia uses out 
	of date stereotypes that were hardly accurate to begin with. 
 
	I'd like to see a book on asia written by people who have lived there. 
It's quite a rich place for both fantasy and super roleplay. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo shell.infinex.com from rook@shell.infinex.com server rook@shell.infinex.com ip 207.201.8.250 
From: Brian Wong <rook@shell.infinex.com> 
Subject: Re: What are your favorite Hero-published characters? 
To: NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us (BILL SVITAVSKY) 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:50:17 -0700 (PDT) 
Cc: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> As I've mentioned recently in the published villain & Champions  
> Universe threads, I'm one of those seeming few who don't use  
> any published villains, organizations, etc. in my games, preferring 
> to use my own material.  
 
	Same here. 
 
> I do like to read through the published material now and then.  
 
	Same here. I often buy the stuff in order to pillage it for my own 
nefarious purposes. 
 
> effort to create one of that type.) What Champs characters stand  
> out on their own? (I'm talking concept, not rules construction.) 
 
	I'm not sure. I'm trying over here, but I'm not yet coming up 
with any among the major well known characters. I'm sure there are some 
among the more obscure characters. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo teleute.com from naneiden@iswest.com server root@alex-va-n002c091.moon.jic.com ip 206.156.21.101 
X-Sender: empulse@usa.net (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:53:43 -0700 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com> 
Subject: Re: Grossly Complex problem 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 01:51 PM 4/15/1998 -0500, Sakura wrote: 
> 
>Well, I'm working on my current project (Final Fantasy HERO) and I've come 
>up against an interesting problem... 
> 
>I want to have a 'Gambler' type character whose special powers are random, 
>based on poker hands.  How I'd like to do it is this: 
> 
>The player gets dealt a 5-card hand.  He makes the best poker hand he can 
>out of it.  If he wants to, he can use that hand right then for the 
>effect, or next turn he can take an action to discard and redraw up to 
>three cards. 
> 
 
The Hucksters from Deadlands are a lot like this, you should check out the 
core rule book for a solid explanation of how their magic works through 
drawing cards. 
 
As I see it, you could go with something like this. 
 
Character has a set of powers, either a VPP, or a multi-power, depending on 
just how you want to represent the various abilities. Then take a look at 
the various hands in poker (5 card stud is easiest) and determine what 
portion of the active of the power the character can use for a given hand. 
 
For example: 
	2 of a Kind	50% Active 
	3 of a Kind	60% Active 
 
I don't have the rules for poker in front of me, the Deadlands book can 
give you a good idea of the progression involved. The its just a question 
of how much of a limitation the character should get for this. I think it 
would be a rather big limitation, but YMMV. 
 
Secondly, the character would have to have a Gambling skill. Failing the 
skill Roll would give the character the standard 5 cards, nothing more. 
Making the roll would allow the character to spend an extra phase 
discarding up to 3 of the cards to make his hand. Finally, for ever 2 (or 
more, depending) he makes the roll by, he's allowed to draw more cards to 
create his 5 card hand. 
 
Lastly, don't let him reshuffle the deck until he goes through the deck or 
maybe crits his Gambling roll. That way the power will fluctuate the way 
cards do. Unlike dice, you can run out of certain cards. 
 
This might not be very clear, the Deadlands book does a better job of 
explaining it. 
 
-Nic 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo pluto.nildram.co.uk from qts@nildram.co.uk server @pluto.nildram.co.uk ip 195.112.4.14 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "GoldRushG" <GoldRushG@aol.com&> "Sakura" <jeffj@io.com> 
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 98 22:00:36  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:53:35 -0500 (CDT), Sakura wrote: 
 
>On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, GoldRushG wrote: 
> 
>> << My house rules also include the idea the if the Proffesional skill has 
>> another applicable skill than the player must have that skill. For example: 
>>  
>>     Player purchases PS: Computer Programmer. In this case the PS does NOT 
>> help the player perform the skill, for that they need Computer Programing. 
>> However, the skill does help the player know where to look for jobs, the names 
>> of other computer programmers, and other such trivialities. >> 
>>  
>>   Sounds good to me. In fact, that's the way I see PS also.  ;) 
> 
>Hey, wow, my area.  This is even better than 'Mechanic' and 'PS: Mechanic' 
>that I just commented on. 
> 
>Computer Programming: Hacking code.  Lots of people have this.  I got it 
>   in college.  What I /didn't/ have when I entered the workforce was: 
> 
>PS: Computer Programmer, which covers a lot of the 'procedural' stuff - in 
>my case, how to use source control and bug tracking software, some 
>familiarity with how the company's design process works, how the 
>departments interact with each other, etc. 
> 
>Arguably, that skill should be PS: Computer Programmer for (Company), but 
>that might be getting a bit /too/ specific. 
 
OK, as a professional computer bod, I can't help but bite here. IMO the 
PS covers both aspects, and the KS covers the *insight*. Someone with 
just the PS will follow the procedures, do the documentation etc; but 
someone with the KS as well will know when to bend the rules, when to 
go beyond the normal etc. A 'geek' is someone who has the KS but not 
the PS. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-SMTP: helo pentagon.io.com from jeffj@io.com server @pentagon.io.com ip 199.170.88.5 
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:03:34 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On 15 Apr 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> Bob Greenwade writes: 
>  
> >    For the basic 2-point, 11- PS, the character can handle the basics of 
> > the profession (paperwork, license applications, and such). 
>  
> That is Bureacracy, not Teaching. 
 
Actually, Bureaucracy is more 'general'.  PS: Teacher would give no help 
with filling out complex immigration forms, while Bureaucracy would. (And 
if one had both PS: Teacher and Bureaucracy, one could use one as a 
complementary skill to the other when filling out teacher-related 
paperwork.) 
 
Hmm.  Maybe the PS should be regarded as a collection of very limited 
skills.  PS: Teacher would include 'Bureaucracy, only for Teaching-related 
matters', among other things.  
 
This would mean that the Mechanic skill is 'fix anything', while PS: Auto 
Mechanic would let you fix cars and nothing else.  Since PS: Auto Mechanic 
covers more than just fixing cars, it helps keep both skills on a similar 
level of how much is covered. 
 
J 
 
"One equal temper of heroic hearts,              http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will              jeffj@io.com 
 To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."    - Tennyson, "Ulysses" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo access2.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access2.digex.net ip 205.197.245.193 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:04:29 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: More supplement reviews 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Brian Wong wrote: 
 
> If I could ever get myself motified to write, I'd love to do an asia 
> sourcebook. The gaming industry has been one miserably inacurrate book to the 
> next in this area. 
 
 
Well, I will admit that my Wuxia Hero book is deliberaitly written with 
anime and HK action in mind.  It is not so much an Asia sourcebook, but a 
sourcebook for HK (etc) action movies and how to adapt them to Hero. 
Historically accurate?  You must be kidding.  Stererotyped? Possibly, but 
it will HK film-maker sterotypes (noble Triad gangsters and all that). 
Great fun?  I sure hope so.   
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:05:44 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 05:22 PM 4/15/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>Bob Greenwade writes: 
> 
>>    For the basic 2-point, 11- PS, the character can handle the basics of 
>> the profession (paperwork, license applications, and such). 
> 
>That is Bureacracy, not Teaching. 
 
   Think of it as a limited form of Bureaucracy.  (Oh, and throw in things 
like a basic knowledge of teaching sourceworks, how to fill out attendance 
charts, the terminology used in the profession, etc.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:06:41 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 05:20 PM 4/15/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>> PS: Mechanic would cover: ordering parts from NAPA, operating the cash 
>> register, 
> 
>Um, no.  A trained chimpanzee can run a cash register :). 
 
   You know, I *thought* that clerk at the local 7-11 looked kinda 
hiruite....   ;-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo pluto.nildram.co.uk from qts@nildram.co.uk server @pluto.nildram.co.uk ip 195.112.4.14 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "BILL SVITAVSKY" <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us&> 
        "CHAMP-L@sysabend.org" <CHAMP-L@sysabend.org> 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 98 22:09:38  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: The Average Man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998 15:08:47 -0400, BILL SVITAVSKY wrote: 
 
>"qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> wrote: 
> 
>>>> 
> 
> 
>On Tue, 14 Apr 1998 10:55:01 -0700, Lizard wrote: 
> 
>>Language:English, beyond fluent. (This isn't on the chart. How do you 
>>represent someone with a command of the language BEYOND that of the typical 
>>native speaker?) 
> 
>Easy: +1 pt. A 'native' has 4 pts in a language, but you can have 5 
>pts. In a tonal language like Chinese, you could add in Perfect Pitch, 
>too. 
>qts 
> 
><<< 
> 
>It would be interesting to use the +1 point to suggest a  
>large vocabulary, skilled diction, and so on (as you seem to be  
>suggesting), though I believe the BBB pretty specifically  
>states that 5 points in a language gives you the skill to  
>imitate dialects. 
 
IMO this is a reflection of the deeper knowledge: people in different 
areas speak in different ways, and to properly imitate this you have to 
know the rules behind it. 
 
>Other possibilities for language ability include Oratory, KS:  
>English Vocabulary, KS: English Grammar, and PS: Writer. I'd  
>probably assume that most characters with Linguist or any  
>KS's or PS's related to reading or writing have superior  
>language ability as well. 
 
Yes, though someone with all of those would probably be a Professor of 
English or equivalent. 
 
>Now that I think about it, excellent diction could be a good  
>justification (or at least part of the justification) for a  
>high PRE. A high INT might include ability with language in some  
>cases, but certainly not all. 
 
Yes - Only for Repartee. 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo pluto.nildram.co.uk from qts@nildram.co.uk server @pluto.nildram.co.uk ip 195.112.4.14 
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 98 22:14:30  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:57:47 -0500 (CDT), Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
>	Football is probably best handled with specialized combat skills, 
>actually.  PS: Football player would work for many things.  Not for 
>throwing, and probably not for catching, however.  Same for tackling and 
>eluding the tackle.  Heck, even blocking.  Those are all combat skills. 
 
Didn't they do a 'football' martial art? 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 15:16:33 -0700 
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: What are your favorite Hero-published characters? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:03 PM 4/15/1998 -0400, BILL SVITAVSKY wrote: 
> 
>As I've mentioned recently in the published villain & Champions  
>Universe threads, I'm one of those seeming few who don't use  
>any published villains, organizations, etc. in my games, preferring 
>to use my own material.  
> 
>I do like to read through the published material now and then.  
>I'm sure those of you who regularly use it know and appreciate  
>the characters better than I do. I'm curious to hear what  
>characters people really like. In the comics newsgroups, people  
>can rattle on endlessly about the concepts and doings of their  
>favorite heroes & villains; who catches Champions fans fancy? 
> 
>To me, a lot of the most prominent characters don't seem all that  
>inspired. Dr. Destroyer is a thinly disguised Dr. Doom, Mechanon  
>is Ultron, and even Foxbat (whom I like) is only a few steps  
>removed from Ambush Bug (maybe not an imitation, but a conscious  
>effort to create one of that type.) What Champs characters stand  
>out on their own? (I'm talking concept, not rules construction.) 
 
   Actually, BTW, I'm almost completely sure that Foxbat predates Ambush 
Bug by at least a couple of years. 
   I've found that I can get surprisingly good mileage out of COIL.  Most 
of the story hooks there aren't obvious, and the extra ones I've found may 
even have been unintentional, but if you look closely enough through the 
various character descriptions you can find a lot of "things that make you 
go hmmmmmmmm..." 
   Another one I can get a lot of ideas out of is Proteus, from the "Murder 
in Stronghold" scenario in Champions Presents #2.  (Oh, and if anyone knows 
how to get ahold of Timothy Keating, please give him both my email address 
and Dave Mattingly's; we each have something different that we wish to cull 
from this work of his.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mason2.gmu.edu from wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu server @mason2.gmu.edu ip 129.174.1.11 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:22:29 -0400 (EDT) 
From: William K Bushway <wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu> 
X-Sender: wbushway@mason2.gmu.edu 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Grossly Complex problem 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Sakura wrote: 
 
> > > Well, I'm working on my current project (Final Fantasy HERO) and I've come  
> > > up against an interesting problem...  
> >  
> > Does this mean it's an actual published senario you are working on?  If so 
> > then my version of hand waving will not work: 
>  
> Eh? No, only for me and my tabletop group.  I might put the results up on 
> the web if enough people are interested, but I don't have the time or the 
> energy to try and get licensing from Square and Hero, let alone write 
> it up as an 'official' book... 
 
	Please, put it up on the Web.  Telling my friend that he could 
accurately model his favorite FF characters was one of the ways I 
convinced him to switch from D&D. 
 
> > Use a multipower for all of the combinations.  Each slot is an ultra.   
 
	I've used this setup successfully for a character with powers 
based off a Tarot deck. 
 
> > Put the following limitations on the MP: -1/2 Only one power may be 
> > used at a time, -1 slot switched based on hand. 
 
	Hmmm...  I agree that each slot should be an ultra.  But, 
considering that the size of the point reserve will most likely be based 
on the biggest power (Royal Flush), putting a -1 limit on said power would 
be a bit of a faux pas. ;) 
 
> Actually, in keeping with the Final Fantasy games, 'High Card' is going to 
> be a sort of booby-prize minor healing effect. 
 
	Mugu, mugu. 
 
> What bothers me is having the player spend so many points for a 
> power he might never get to use.  I think the minimum I'll go with on the 
> high-level powers is Activate 8- (-2) and NCC (-2) - that would make it 
> seem to be rare enough... 
 
	Well, time for somebody with a scientific calculator to supply us 
with some probabilities.  I tend to belive that the chance of drawing a 
royal flush is a little less than 8-.  If you're really scrimping for 
points, you could continue the chart in the BBB down to -3, and so on. 
 
	Of course, if you want to follow the FF mold, each slot would have 
the Advantage:0 END cost. 
 
> Actually, I'm saying he has to use the best hand possible, just to keep 
> things simple.  The Gambler has little control over his magic... 
 
	This is why everyone should own one of those miniature working 
slot-machine games, like the ones on keychains they sell at Vegas. 
 
> > P.S. Don't call him Gambler, Call him Stud, that's the game he's playing. 
>  
> Actually, it's 5-card draw.  'Gambler' is the name of the (for lack of a 
> better term) 'character class' - the player will of course choose the 
> name.  
 
	Which FF games are you looking at?  I'm assuming U.S. 2 and 3. 
1 U.S. would be too D&D-ish, and 7 too complex (How would you model a 
limit break?  An END reserve, equal to the END cost of the Limit attack, 
that fills up when you take STUN?) 
 
	          William K. Bushway, wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu 
	          http://Mason.GMU.edu/~wbushway/index.html 
	   "I'm betting that I'm just abnormal enough to survive." 
		    -The Tick, The Tick Vs.The Breadmaster 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo clark.pioneer.net from chud@pioneer.net server @clark.pioneer.net ip 205.162.228.2 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:00:53 -0700 
From: Clinton Chard <chud@pioneer.net> 
To: Larry <cpartridge@proaxis.com> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Suggested incremental damage idea 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Camille Partridge wrote: 
 
> This is an idea for an "incremental" damge house rule for the Hero system. 
> This is partially in response to the recent discussion about critical 
> hit options.  I would suggest using this house rule instead of a critical 
> hit option in a heroic level game that uses hit locations.  I could also 
> be used without hit locations in a super level game. 
> 
> The basic concept is that a "better" to-hit roll should increase the 
> damage that is done. 
> 
> If you roll 2/3 or better of your to-hit roll, all 1's rolled on damage dice 
> would become 2's.  Similarly, if you rolled 1/2 or better of your to-hit 
> roll, all 1's and 2's on damage dice would become 3's.  This pattern 
> continues for 1/3, 1/4, and 1/5 of your to-hit roll.  Here is a table 
> with the numbers calculated out for those who think better that way: 
> 
>    (n)      (2/3 n)  (1/2 n)    (1/3 n)  (1/4 n)     (1/5 n) 
>   to-hit     1->2     1,2->3   1,2,3->4 1,2,3,4->5 1,2,3,4,5->6 
>   ------    -------  -------   -------- ---------- ------------ 
>     3         -         -         -         -         - 
>     4         3         -         -         -         - 
>     5         3         3         -         -         - 
>     6         4         3         -         -         - 
>     7         5         4         -         -         - 
>     8         5         4         3         -         - 
>     9         6         5         3         -         - 
>     10        7         5         3         3         - 
>     11        7         6         4         3         - 
>     12        8         6         4         3         - 
>     13        9         7         4         3         3 
>     14        9         7         5         4         3 
>     15        10        8         5         4         3 
>     16        11        8         5         4         3 
>     17        11        9         6         4         3 
>     18        12        9         6         5         4 
>     19        13        10        6         5         4 
>     20        13        10        7         5         4 
>     21        14        11        7         5         4 
>     22        15        11        7         6         4 
>     23        15        12        8         6         5 
>     24        16        12        8         6         5 
>     25        17        13        8         6         5 
> 
> For example, assume that your to-hit roll is 12-: 
> 
>         If you roll 13 or above, you miss (just like always). 
> 
>         If you roll 9 to 12, you do the same damage as always. 
> 
>         If you roll 7 or 8, all 1's on your damage dice get changed to 2's. 
> 
>         If you roll 5 or 6, all 1's or 2's get changed to 3's. 
> 
>         If you roll 4, all 1's, 2's, and 3's get changed to 4's. 
> 
>         If you roll 3, all 1's, 2's, 3's, and 4's get changed to 5's. 
> 
> What do you (plural) think? 
> 
 
Well, by changing the 1's to 2's and so forth, this significantly changes the 
amount of body done in the attack. This would certainly be the affect of a 
'critical hit' that is reflective of how well the hit was made. Not bad. 
 
> Larry Woestman (sharing an account with my wife) 
> Camille Partridge 
> Gaelforce Scottish Terriers 
> cpartridge@proaxis.com 
> http://www.proaxis.com/~cpartridge 
 
 
 
-- 
"Contrariwise," Continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be; and if it were 
so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." -Lewis Carroll 
 
 Clinton Chard 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo clark.pioneer.net from chud@pioneer.net server @clark.pioneer.net ip 205.162.228.2 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:26:50 -0700 
From: Clinton Chard <chud@pioneer.net> 
To: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us> 
CC: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: What are your favorite Hero-published characters? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
BILL SVITAVSKY wrote: 
 
> As I've mentioned recently in the published villain & Champions 
> Universe threads, I'm one of those seeming few who don't use 
> any published villains, organizations, etc. in my games, preferring 
> to use my own material. 
> 
> I do like to read through the published material now and then. 
> I'm sure those of you who regularly use it know and appreciate 
> the characters better than I do. I'm curious to hear what 
> characters people really like. In the comics newsgroups, people 
> can rattle on endlessly about the concepts and doings of their 
> favorite heroes & villains; who catches Champions fans fancy? 
> 
> To me, a lot of the most prominent characters don't seem all that 
> inspired. Dr. Destroyer is a thinly disguised Dr. Doom, Mechanon 
> is Ultron, and even Foxbat (whom I like) is only a few steps 
> removed from Ambush Bug (maybe not an imitation, but a conscious 
> effort to create one of that type.) What Champs characters stand 
> out on their own? (I'm talking concept, not rules construction.) 
> 
> While I really don't know these characters all that well, I do 
> think Black Paladin and the Slug are pretty good concepts; they'd 
> make passable villains in published comics. I also liked the 
> woman nobody noticed in the Horror Enemies (I think) book. 
 
 I really liked The Exterminators in Alien Enemies. They were jokers 
with some powerful, but unreliable weapons that would give most supers a 
pause. I liked the humor of them chasing an alien PC, so I created one 
for Bob Greenwade's. It should be fun! 
 
-- 
"Contrariwise," Continued Tweedledee, "if it was so, it might be; and if 
it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." 
-Lewis Carroll 
 
 Clinton Chard 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2 
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:38:28 -0500 
To: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com&> champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>  No, no, not at all. Sorry. What I should have said that PS: Whatever 
confers 
>the knowledge of how to GET the licensing moreso than the actual license 
>itself. There are steps to obtaining and maintaining a license for any 
>profession, obviously enough. I think a PS should allow a character to have 
>this information. 
 
Okay, I'll buy that. 
 
> 
><< He doesn't sound like a mechanic at all. >> 
> 
>  But nevertheless, by definition, he is still a "mechanic." 
 
A person with a 14- in a PS which, as you described it, has more to do with 
running a business -- any business -- than repairing cars, and who happens 
to have an 8- FAM with Mechanics isn't by definition a mechanic.  He's a 
businessman who has a nodding acquanintance with the job his enployees are 
doing, and *they* are mechanics. 
 
>  Being able to do a job and really knowing what your doing in that field are 
>not necessarily the same thing, as others have pointed out. The example of 
>teachers who cannot "teach," lawyers who passed the bar but couldn't litigate 
>to save their lives, etc., are all examples of this line of thought. 
 
And I have no problem with the idea that you may want to buy a KNOWledge 
Skill to go with your PS in some cases, to better KNOW what you're doing in 
that field.  Buying PS: Lawyer and KS: Law should cover it, though.  It 
shouldn't be necessary to buy a new Skill -- Litigation(PRE) to in order to 
"complete" the ability.  Where would this stop, and how would you decide 
where to draw the line?  If you want a litigator, buy PS: Trial Lawyer 
instead of PS: Contracts Lawyer.  Breaking a broad profession down into 
specialties using PS has precedents in the published description:  Brain 
Surgeon, within the broader field of Doctor, and Game Editor, within the 
broader field of Editor. 
 
><< What you are describing doesn't sound like PS: Mechanic to me, it sounds 
>like Business Sense, presumably a Background Skill, which measures how good 
>a businessman you are regardless of your chosen field. >> 
> 
>  Not so. The "unscrupulous mechanic" in my example has to have *some* 
>knowledge of being a mechanic to run the business effectively, thus the 
>Familiarity with Mechanic. Someone with a Masters in Business Administration 
>but nbo background whatsopever in law is going to have a tough time running a 
>paralegal service all by himself. ;) 
 
As might a lawyer without the MBA.  But a business major with a FAM in Law 
isn't a lawyer, any more than a business major with a FAM in Mechanics is 
an auto mechanic. 
Think about this:  you go to a doctor and there on the wall is his diploma 
from Harvard.  But wait!  You look closer and find it's an MBA from Harvard 
Business School. "It's okay," he assures you, "I took pre-med as well." 
This man is not a doctor; in a realistically handled campaign, there'd 
probably be no way for him to obtain a license to practice as one.  Someone 
with only a FAM in Law probably cannot pass the bar, and *may* not have 
graduated law school. 
 
>  So what is the difference, philosophically, between buying (what I deem to 
>be) the prerequisite skill and (what you state) a KS: The Industry? :)  Not 
>much, if any at all, IMO. 
 
The difference is in what we think the prerequisite skill covers, and in 
whether or not, as a result of that coverage (or lack thereof) you have to 
go out and make up new Skills to cover the most central job-related tasks. 
Dave buys PS: Firefighter.  In order to be effective on the job, does he 
need to create a Firefighting Skill to go with it?  Ed buys PS: 
Photographer, but not the [non-existent] Photography Skill.  Oops!  Does 
this mean Dave, with no knowledge of business practices, can start and run 
a photography studio, but that he *doesn't* know how to take 
professional-quality pictures? 
 
><< Not every P.I. will be as good as every other, whis is why you can buy the 
>PS at 11-, 12-, 13- or whatever suits your level of ability. >> 
> 
>  And any PI who doesn't have Detective Work or Deduction or any other 
>"investigative"-type skills won't be very effective at all. I would assert 
>that such a character is a PI by name only (the PS) and not by definition. ;) 
 
Like I said, some people will be better at it than others and complementary 
Skills are always a good idea.  I think if the rules *required* additional 
Skills, they wouldn't simply be made available.  Somewhere there'd be a 
note to the effect that:  "the PS does not confer on a character the 
ability to perform any but the simplest job related tasks.  In order to 
carry out the important, central job functions, the player must create a 
new Skill to describe those abilities.  When a Skill Roll is required, the 
GM will decide whether to roll against the new Skill (central job duties) 
or the PS (any business-related or otherwise minor aspect of the job."  Any 
I just don't see a note like that anywhere, or even anything (except posts 
from you and a handful of others here) even suggesting it. 
 
 
>Right. So someone with PS: Trial Lawyer could argue in court, but without KS: 
>Law he may have no clue what the heck he is arguing about or truly understand 
>how the law works!  
 
I agree.  But you've just described the purchase of a related KS, not the 
creation of a new Litigation Skill.  You handled that by buying PS: Trial 
Lawyer instead of PS: Lawyer.  I have no problem at all with this one, it's 
exactly what I'm suggesting should be done. 
 
>  That';s right. The publisher is ignoring the rules printed in the product. 
>::sigh:: No, I am not blatantly ignoring them. I am interpreting them. I 
think 
>a PS would certainly be sufficient for some jobs that are essentially less 
>technical (PS: Waitress? PS: Video Rental Clerk?). But when it comes to some 
>jobs, other skills are an absolute necessity. One could be a plumber with PS: 
>Plumber, but how many plumbers do you know that really know how to do pipe 
>work and have absolutely no knowledge of water pressure and such? 
 
I haven't taken a poll of the plumbers I've hired.  If they can fix my 
broken pipe, that's all I care about.  Again, I don't see anything in the 
rules that suggests that Professional Skills fall into two categories, 
those that cover all the job requirements and those that don't.  I 
certainly don't see any basis for objectively determining what jobs fall 
into each category.  Bob's suggestion to divide them along the lines of 
Background vs. Char-based Skills might help address this, but I just read 
that in the last 5 minutes and haven't had time to think that one through yet. 
 
>  I am not going to point out specific rules passages to you to try to 
>convince you. I believe much of it is common sense and desired style of play 
>(read: opinion). Besides, you posted one of the same quotes I did. 
 
I don't understand your reluctance to support your position with published 
rules.  *Much* of it is common sense, but unless you take the view that one 
of us is completely devoid of common sense, this specific point apparently 
falls outside the range of "much".  I think I'm making a reasonable 
argument here, and explaining both by example and by rules citation why I 
think so.  I know that you are capable of well reasoned commentary 
yourself, but I'm finding a lot of what you're saying here to be somewhat 
circular -- as opposed to my own comments, which are merely repetitive  ;) 
-- in that it seems to boil down to "I say this is how PS works because I 
say that's how the rules work".  I still don't know what leads you to this 
particular interpretation.   
 
Your view is one possible interpretation, not the only one.  The fact that 
I have offered specific supporting evidence for my view does NOT mean that 
mine is the better argument, but IMO it does mean my argument is presently 
the only supported one at the table, making it harder for me to compare the 
virtues of my position with the virtues of yours.  
 
>  If you are only going to acknowledge the published rules as canon and 
not be 
>open to a differing point of view, then what's the point? I thought we were 
>discussing an interpretation of the rules; a way to present a "realistically 
>detailed" option to the low-point NPCs that many Hero fans are used to. 
 
The published rules *are* canon by definition.  That doesn't make them 
inviolate.  It does make them the starting point for the game.  Individual 
GMs, as always, can do what they like in their own campaigns.  Hero does 
not frown on these sorts of rules deviations.  Part of what I'm trying to 
do here is to establish whether your system, or mine, or both constitutes 
such a rules deviation/modification.  It's less a matter of which of us is 
"right" or "wrong" than which of us (if either) is correctly interpreting 
the original system.  It wouldn't matter if each of us only played in our 
own little corners, but it's conceivable I may someday offer something for 
publication, and you will be doing so routinely; published materials should 
observe standard Hero conventions as far as possible, and flag rules 
additions or modifications where they appear. 
 
>  If we *were* to publish such a rule, would that convince you to consider 
the 
>possibility that PS is not the catch-all skill that some people consider 
it to 
>be? Do you see how silly this all is? <LOL> 
 
I'm already *considering* the possibility, though not as seriously as I 
would be if people would give a rules-supported argument instead of just 
saying "No, it isn't." 
Cerainly I'd welcome clarification of this one way or the other in 5th 
Edition rules.  I don't know how much weight I'd give it if I found such a 
pronouncement in a licensed product of any sort from Atlas, R. Talsorian or 
Gold Rush.  That's because I don't know to what extent licensed products 
are "Watched" (read: edited in any way) by Hero Games. 
How "official" are they, really? 
 
><< What's at issue [is] whether or not a standard PS, as written, covers the 
>basic job-related tasks of its profession. >> 
> 
>  Certainly it does. I never suggested otherwise. In fact, early on I 
listed a 
>number of duties a cop could perform with just PS: Police Officer. Why are 
you 
>making this some type of internal struggle when it's not? It's simply a 
matter 
>of misunderstanding what is being said, I think. 
 
If this is now a struggle, it's become one in part because not one person 
has yet responded to my request for *any kind* of specific rules citation 
in support of the view I've been arguing against.   
 
>  As a publisher of Hero System products I hereby declare it is now an 
Otional 
>Rule. <LOL> Satisfied? 
 
I'm going to assume you entertained no notion that I would be.  Look, I 
behaved Very Badly a couple of days ago (and unfortunately, not for the 
first time) and I've been trying to keep myself under control since then. 
Flatly refusing to respond to my requests, calling the whole question silly 
and laughing at me as you wave the Big Stick of the Licensed Publisher is 
really not calculated to help my mood.  I respect your right to a differing 
viewpoint.  I accept that yours *may be* the [more nearly] correct 
viewpoint, and have asked for evidence of this -- some indication that your 
system is in fact what the original writers had in mind all along -- and 
you haven't offered me any.   
 
The one argument *anyone* has made, pointing out that the existence of 
Computer Programming, Electronics and Mechanics as separate Skills could be 
used to support the contention that PS: Mechanic doesn't make one a 
mechanic (it still sounds bizarre) I have replied to.  I offered a 
different explanation for why those particular Skills, among all the 
possible Professional Skills, might have been listed separately.  No one 
has so much as acknowledged that explanation yet, much less discussed it. 
 
Damon 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo kuhub.cc.ukans.edu from kevinc@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu server SYSTEM      @kuhub.cc.ukans.edu ip 129.237.32.2 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:44:47 -0600 
From: kevinc@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Kevin Criscione) 
Subject: Japan Sourcebook (was Re: More supplement reviews) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Cc: Lindsley@kuphsx.phsx.ukans.edu 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>From Champions Mailing list: 
 
>> >> >  Let's just hope that if anyone ever did it they actually had a clue 
>> >> >on asia, rather than just learned it all from a Wolverine comic and a 
>> >> bunch of 
>> >> >anime movies. 
>> >> > 
>> >If I could ever get myself motified to write, I'd love to do an asia 
>> >sourcebook. The gaming industry has been one miserably inacurrate book 
>>to the 
>> >next in this area. 
>> > 
>> Hey, do it! I suspect there really is good demand for "Champions Of The 
>> East" or the like, and if you can manage to mesh *accurate* cultural flavor 
>> with the paradigms of RPGs, it will be quite a feat. 
>> 
>        Well, first I'd have to get over being motified (whatever that is), 
>and get down to being 'motivated'. :) 
> 
>> I suspect a lot of the problem is that people writing gaming books look to 
>> other gaming books as sources. How did GURPS China and GURPS Japan come out? 
>> 
>        They were decent, and ocaisionally even accurate. 
> 
>The problem is twofold. 
> 
>1. Most westerners have very little clue on asia. That's the nature of our 
>        society. By converse, most asian societies today study the west in 
>        great detail. 
> 
>2. Asia is a living breathing place. It's not today what it was 500 years ago, 
>        let alone even 5 years ago. Most of the stuff I see on asia uses out 
>        of date stereotypes that were hardly accurate to begin with. 
> 
>        I'd like to see a book on asia written by people who have lived there. 
>It's quite a rich place for both fantasy and super roleplay. 
 
  Well, the character write-ups (game mechanics only and with a number of 
familiar anime references) for the proposed "Champions of Nippon" are 
finished and my co-author, who is doing the social aspects of the book has 
had a long time interest in Japanese culture and is currently living and 
working in Japan for two years. Does that qualify? 
 
 
Kevin Criscione             Champions is a simulation of comic book reality. 
kevinc@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu   Congruency with any other reality is purely 
                               coincidental. 
 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:45:26 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Japan Sourcebook (was Re: More supplement reviews) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 05:44 PM 4/15/1998 -0600, Kevin Criscione wrote: 
>>        I'd like to see a book on asia written by people who have lived 
there. 
>>It's quite a rich place for both fantasy and super roleplay. 
> 
>  Well, the character write-ups (game mechanics only and with a number of 
>familiar anime references) for the proposed "Champions of Nippon" are 
>finished and my co-author, who is doing the social aspects of the book has 
>had a long time interest in Japanese culture and is currently living and 
>working in Japan for two years. Does that qualify? 
 
   I should hope it does. 
   Count me as a customer for this book! 
   (PS: Please include Zen Team and other Japanese characters established 
in the Champions Universe.  They may be cheesy, but continuity is important 
to us CU fans.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64 
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified) 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 16:46:17 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:06 PM 4/15/1998 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>At 05:20 PM 4/15/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>> PS: Mechanic would cover: ordering parts from NAPA, operating the cash 
>>> register, 
>> 
>>Um, no.  A trained chimpanzee can run a cash register :). 
> 
>   You know, I *thought* that clerk at the local 7-11 looked kinda 
>hiruite....   ;-] 
 
    Typo time again.  Make that "hirsuite." 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo access1.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access1.digex.net ip 205.197.245.192 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:06:14 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: What are your favorite Hero-published characters? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, BILL SVITAVSKY wrote: 
 
> What Champs characters stand  
> out on their own? (I'm talking concept, not rules construction.) 
 
Let's see... off of the top of my head, here are some of my favorite 
Hero System characters: 
 
The Blood  (Blood and Dr. McQuark) - all of them, but especially "The 
Affrighter". Okor showed up in at least 4 local games at last count. 
 
Madame Moonlight (Golden Age of Champions) - best costume *ever* and a 
pretty cool concept. 
 
St. Peter's Star (Classic Organizations) - Mainly due to the art, but I 
really liked certain aspects of the character's personality.   
 
Felix-9 and Long Walker (Allies) - Walker's personality was just too cool, 
and Felix demanded to be droped into my Kazei 5 cyberpunk game. 
 
Normals Unbound - Just about *all* of them. 
 
Morgan Blake (Horror Hero) - I liked him due to his pic (pretty cool) and 
his personality. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:16:31 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> >That is Bureacracy, not Teaching. 
> 
>    Think of it as a limited form of Bureaucracy.  (Oh, and throw in things 
> like a basic knowledge of teaching sourceworks, how to fill out attendance 
> charts, the terminology used in the profession, etc.) 
 
	Also, how to fill out a lesson plan, the latest homework and paper 
fads, etc.  A whole bunch of skills that are essential to a teache. 
Teaching is not on that list. 
 
	Also, I like the idea of not requiring a second skill unless the 
skill is "important" enough outside of the profession.  Teaching, I think, 
would be here.  This skill would go to elementary and high school 
teachers, college professors, military drill instructiors, industry 
"teaching consultants", etc.  Very valuable.  The other PRE-based skills 
don't quite cover it, so call it a new PRE-based skill. 
 
	I think Writing would be another one "important" enough to have 
its own skill; however, I'd give it as a free 8- Everyman. 
 
	In this way, PS: Dentistry would be fine, though all dentists 
would have a KS and SS or two on account of years of schooling.  PS: 
Plumber would be fine, though a KS would be common.  PS: Doctor is needed 
for all doctors, but specialized ones should add additional PSs (such as 
neurosugeon, etc) which are needed to keep for having huge penalties for 
certain procedures. 
 
	So, can anyone think of any other skills, besides Teaching and 
Writing, that should have their own skill entry besides the PS? 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo access1.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access1.digex.net ip 205.197.245.192 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:26:23 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: More supplement reviews 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
> >Yeah, but some of them 'super' martial artists are way of the scale (there 
> >are two 800+ point characters in the book) 
>  
> But wouldn't you expect that from the "World's Greatest" super-martial 
> artist? I still wonder if Lin Hu's 80 point VPP is enough to simulate all 
> the martial arts powers of legend! I don't mind the odd 800+ point villian 
> (or hero); it's when the point levels are consistantly 400+ that it bugs me. 
> WotD had martial artists from pretty much all ends of the 'super' martial 
> artist scale, which was fine by me. 
 
I think my argument comes from a 'gut-reaction' of "800 points!  For 
what?"  Li Chun the Destroyer (Hey... "LI CHUN"?  Steve, were you playing 
Streetifhter II while writing this? ^_^).  Any way Li Chun is supposed to 
be a team-trasher, 832 points is okay.  Lin Hu is supposed to be the 
world's best, but does he need 855 points to do it?   
 
To be honest, a closer look does show that some of those points are spent 
on pretty useless KS skills (do you really need to spend 66 points for a 
KS of every known martial art, or could you just by KS: Martial Arts 23- 
and be done with it?)  He also drops 34 points to know how to use every 
weapon known to man... but that's sorta unavoidable. 
 
Finally, so of his stats are (IMHO) a bit inflated.  35 DEX, 8 PSD and -9 
DEX Lightning Reflexes?  Way to much.  I'd go 30 DEX, 7 SPD and skill 
levels.  (Yeah, even on top of his 8 HTH and 2 Overall).  I think too many 
people pump DEX for its CV valuse alone, as oppsoed to using CSLs to 
represent fighting skill and experience . 
 
80 points for martial arts powers sounds okay.  Exactly what super 
abilities do you want to simulate that you can't fit into 80 Active 
Points?  HKAs, AF Punches, AoE Punches, Chi blasts... what else? 
  
Looking at my own Kazei Five manuscript, I find that there is one 836 
point character, one 700 point character ... and then a big drop to 398, 
380 and 353.  And this doesn't count the cyberdroids, which are uh... 368, 
479, 533 and 624 points...  
 
Hmm... maybe I should just shut up now? 
 
The characters taken from actual PCs are 237, 263, 267, 279, 286, 
311 and 313... okay, so maybe it isn't that bad... 
 
> >> Oh, who else wants to see a full write up of all of the Tiger Squad? 
> > 
> >Hmmm... sure.  But isn't that like... 35 people?   
>  
> Yeah. So? 
 
Just that it would be a sourcebook all to itself.  
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail1.eznet.net from msprague@eznet.net server @mail1.eznet.net ip 207.50.128.20 
From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net> 
To: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com&> 
        "Champions Mailing List A" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Hero Plus printed versions 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:42:24 -0400 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Importance: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> When I printed my copy, it came out just fine, and the margins were 
> perfect. You might want to check the margin settings on your printer 
> itself. Just a thought... 
 
There is nothing to check on the printer ... and for that matter, it printed 
out pretty much like Acrobat displayed it.  Your definition of perfect could 
simply be different than mine.  Like I said before, if you simply want to 
three hole punch it and put it in a three ring binder, the inside margin is 
large enough. 
 
For reference, when I print I have an inside margin of slightly less than 
3/4" and an outside margin (paper edge to the line) of 2 5/8".  Granted, you 
need room for the fancy graphic around the page number (or do you), but it 
could be made smaller, such that the image could be shifted to the outside 
(1/4" inch would be great). 
 
			~ Mike 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail1.eznet.net from msprague@eznet.net server @mail1.eznet.net ip 207.50.128.20 
From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Hero Plus: "Cardboard Heroes"? 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:48:21 -0400 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Importance: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
There is a software package, called Poser 2, by Fractal Design that _looks_ 
like it could be a good way to create a bunch of Cardboard Heroes.  It's 
intent is to create realistic looking 3-D people, from babies to 
super-heroic physique.  It looks like you can add clothing (costume) and 
additional stuff (extra arms?) to personalize each one.  Once you create 
one, you can rotate and look (print) it at any angle, so it would be easy to 
get a front and rear view of the same pose. 
 
I would love knowing how to use this software, but I simply don't have the 
time.  Has anyone tried it? 
 
			~ Mike 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail1.eznet.net from msprague@eznet.net server @mail1.eznet.net ip 207.50.128.20 
From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net> 
To: "Dataweaver" <traveler@io.com&> 
        "JASON SULLIVAN" <RAVANOS@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Cc: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: 0 END DI 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:23:57 -0400 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Importance: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> On Tue, 14 Apr 1998, JASON SULLIVAN wrote: 
> 
> > Anyone here know the offial answer to this problem? 
> > If DI is bought 0 END, do you need to pay the END cost of the 
> STR it grants? 
> 
> Yes. 
 
I agree.  0 END means that you pay no END for DI, which gives you extra 
strength.  Actually using that Strength, however, costs END. 
 
			~ Mike 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail.interhop.net from jprins@interhop.net server root@mail.interhop.net ip 204.50.138.29 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:40:34 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: What are your favorite Hero-published characters? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>> What Champs characters stand  
>> out on their own? (I'm talking concept, not rules construction.) 
 
Well, from Champions of the North: 
 
Borealis: I love this guy. Sure, he's a supervillian, but he's a big 
patriotic Canadian supervillian. He's so anti-stereotypically Canadian  I 
could hug the big guy. I can just see him going around kicking ass in the 
name of the True North, Strong and Free. :-) 
 
Ambrosia: Simply for the very cool nature of her powers. Chemical telepathy... 
 
>From Allies: 
 
The Zen Team. All of them. They're so lovably, cheezily sentai. All they 
need are combining weapons and giant robots... 
 
Le Chevalier D'Honneur: More cheeze, but I like swashbuckler cheeze too. 
 
>From VIPER: 
 
Viperia. Yeah, she's a superman ripoff. But she's a unabashedly blatant 
Superman ripoff, you gotta admire the gall of Scott Bennie and Cliff 
Christiansen. 
 
>From Classic Organizations: 
 
Peace Keeper: Mechanon, reprogrammed to be all nicey-nice. I love it. 
 
Erg: Very nifty character concept. 
 
Tag: I know I shouldn't be pushing CLOWN, but I just love the idea of a guy 
who chases whomever is currently 'it'. 
 
I also like most of the characters from the Zodiac Conspiracy. Using the 
'original' Minotaur was a nice touch. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail.interhop.net from jprins@interhop.net server root@mail.interhop.net ip 204.50.138.29 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:40:40 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: More supplement reviews 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>> >Yeah, but some of them 'super' martial artists are way of the scale (there 
>> >are two 800+ point characters in the book) 
>>  
>> But wouldn't you expect that from the "World's Greatest" super-martial 
>> artist?  
 
>I think my argument comes from a 'gut-reaction' of "800 points!  For 
>what?"  Li Chun the Destroyer (Hey... "LI CHUN"?  Steve, were you playing 
>Streetifhter II while writing this? ^_^). 
 
Heh. Just out of curiosity, what does Li Chun mean in Chinese? This could be 
actually significant... 
 
>  Any way Li Chun is supposed to 
>be a team-trasher, 832 points is okay.  Lin Hu is supposed to be the 
>world's best, but does he need 855 points to do it?   
> 
>To be honest, a closer look does show that some of those points are spent 
>on pretty useless KS skills (do you really need to spend 66 points for a 
>KS of every known martial art, or could you just by KS: Martial Arts 23- 
>and be done with it?) 
 
THAT is very true. I wondered on that one myself. And I would have given Lin 
Hu some martial arts - just so he could do the 'normal' Martial Throw which 
is annoying to simulate with dumb stuff like 'Double Knockback'. Martial 
Throw, Martial Strike, and most of the exert maneuvers. Let him use his VPP 
for extra STR only to do damage, 0 END, but he does Knockback like a regular 
martial artist (he just uses martial strike all the time). 
 
  He also drops 34 points to know how to use every 
>weapon known to man... but that's sorta unavoidable. 
 
Yup. Though he has a 60 point weapon VPP; he's paid points for just about 
every martial arts weapon known to man, so he doesn't need the FAM to use 
them, does he? But I suppose he's going to be teaching others...the FAMs 
make sense. 
 
>Finally, so of his stats are (IMHO) a bit inflated.  35 DEX, 8 PSD and -9 
>DEX Lightning Reflexes?  Way to much.  I'd go 30 DEX, 7 SPD and skill 
>levels.  (Yeah, even on top of his 8 HTH and 2 Overall).  I think too many 
>people pump DEX for its CV valuse alone, as oppsoed to using CSLs to 
>represent fighting skill and experience . 
 
I'd feel no remorse giving Lin Hu a 12 SPD. Watching him fight would 
probably be a lot like a movie martial arts fight where everything an 
opponant does has him running into an arm, leg, elbow, knee, forehead, etc. 
IOW, any fight Lin Hu gets into looks like the fight was coreographed for 
Lin Hu to win in the minimum possible time while the bad guys fall all over 
themselves to 'let' Lin Hu beat them up :-). 
 
As for the DEX, I'm afraid that's an artifact of the way 'standard' 
superhero martial artists are built (27 DEX for Seeker, etc.). 
 
>80 points for martial arts powers sounds okay.  Exactly what super 
>abilities do you want to simulate that you can't fit into 80 Active 
>Points?  HKAs, AF Punches, AoE Punches, Chi blasts... what else? 
 
I'd expect Lin Hu to be able to do some _vile_ Dim Mak abilities, but TUMA 
slaps on Invisible (+3/4) and Massive Time Delays for the return rate of the 
Drains. I think Lin Hu should have a 'real' point limitation to his powers, 
but effectively no _active_ point limitation. Lin Hu couldn't even do Qi 
Feng's Dim Mak on 80 points. 
  
>Looking at my own Kazei Five manuscript, I find that there is one 836 
>point character, one 700 point character 
 
That'd be Ran and Shion, truly vile psychokinetics, right? Just how big was 
Ran's VPP again? :-) 
 
>> >> Oh, who else wants to see a full write up of all of the Tiger Squad? 
>> > 
>> >Hmmm... sure.  But isn't that like... 35 people?   
>>  
>> Yeah. So? 
> 
>Just that it would be a sourcebook all to itself.  
 
Yeah. So? :-) While we're at it, we need the Pacific Lords as well...^_^ 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"Now, we get bigger guns." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail1.eznet.net from msprague@eznet.net server @mail1.eznet.net ip 207.50.128.20 
From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: More supplement reviews (V&V Stuff) 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:12:02 -0400 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Importance: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Since we are on the subject, I thought I would toss out something along the 
same lines.  Does anyone have a list of all the V&V superhero stuff? 
 
Here is what I know of: 
 
2000	Villains and Vigilantes (Revised Edition) 
2002	Crisis at Crusaders Citadel 
2003	Death Duel with the Destroyers 
2004	The Island of Doctor Apocalypse 
2005	Force 
2006	Assassin 
2007	Opponents Unlimited 
2008	Most Wanted: Volume 1 
2010	The Dawn of DNA 
2011	From the Deeps of Space 
2012	Battle Above the Earth 
2014	Devil's Domain 
2016	Terror by Night 
2017	Most Wanted: Volume 3 
2018	Pre-Emptive Strike 
2020	Honor (Enter the Dragon's Claw) 
2021	Search for the Sensei 
2051	DNAgents Sourcebook 
 
A lot of missing number there. 
 
If anyone is interested in a summary of any of these, I can write a quick 
one, as the above are all owned by myself or friends.  Some are really good, 
some are poor, and some depend on your campaign. 
 
		~ Mike 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo m4.boston.juno.com from llwatts@juno.com server @m4.boston.juno.com ip 205.231.101.198 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Politics in the game... 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-6,8-9,15-17,19 
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts) 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:29:06 EDT 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< Most Champions supplements, modules, etc. have a distinctly liberal  
>bent to 
>them (IMHO). Does anyone run their games more middle of the road or 
>conservative?>> 
> 
>  Now this is an interesting observation. Do you have any examples? 
 
Or better yet, definitions?  "Liberal" and "Conservative" mean different 
things to different people. 
 
IMHO, the superhero genre does tend to be pro-individualism.  The lone 
hero (or small group of heroes) that challenges evil directly despite 
evil's numerical advantage is shown as worthy of respect.  I don't recall 
any comics where success routinely comes from following along with the 
group.  (I never got into the super-agent comics, though -- or the 
cartoon tie-ins.)  Is this what the original poster meant? 
 
Leah 
(hoping this turned out semi-coherent after the overtime she's put in 
this past week) 
 
_____________________________________________________________________ 
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. 
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com 
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail.igateway.net from tstatler@igateway.net server @mail.igateway.net ip 206.142.60.2 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:33:40 -0500 
From: Tim Statler <tstatler@igateway.net> 
Reply-To: tstatler@igateway.net 
To: hero-l@sysabend.org, Jason Sullivan <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu> 
Subject: Re: Strawberry Ripple 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Jason Sullivan wrote: 
>  
>         Here's my take on the groovy babe Strawberry Ripple. 
>  
>         She's a far out, man...  She was once a square geek-child, but 
> after an accident with some chemical substances, she gained the ability to 
> change into S.R.  Now she fights 'the man' sand speaks out for the rights 
> of hip and happening young people everywhere.  An activist, the fuzz don't 
> appreciate her much... but she tunes them in with her 'strawberry love 
> wave', (AoE Radius Mental Illusions, based on CON, illusions based on 
> target's subconcious perceptions of the world). 
>  
>         Other powers I would suggest are Aura Perception, Change 
> Environment (just for funked out lighting and lava lamp effects), Mind 
> Control (as above, to instill feelings of serenity, peace, and love for 
> your fellow man), and even gliding or flight (with bad blue screen special 
> effects in the background). 
>  
 
Okay, You've asked for it. Write her up and submit her to the list 
 
Tim Statler 
 (just now catching up from over two weeks on not reading mail during 
the holidays.) 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo emerald from dpawtows@access.digex.net server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65 
From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
To: champ-l@omg.org 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:46:01 -0400 (EDT) 
Organization: VTSFFC 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> >  Averageman is immune to the mighty blasts of Dr. Destroyer, but has to 
> >be very careful when crossing the street....... 
>  
>    Outch.  :-] 
 
  Did I mention DF: Has *precisely* 2.3 kids?  :-) 
 
                               Daniel "Birthdays every third year" Pawtowski 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:57:49 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: What are your favorite Hero-published characters? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> >From Classic Organizations: 
 
	You forgot Yu Genothrax.  Nice Cuthuloid writeup. 
 
> Tag: I know I shouldn't be pushing CLOWN, but I just love the idea of a guy 
> who chases whomever is currently 'it'. 
 
	Oh, yeah.  CLOWN.  I use them a lot in my game for some comic 
relief.  My group really doesn't like Snapshot, Merry Andrew or, of 
course, Tag. 
 
> I also like most of the characters from the Zodiac Conspiracy. Using the 
> 'original' Minotaur was a nice touch. 
 
	Yes.  About the best villian "team" in the Champions Universe. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo17.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo17.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.39 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:59:57 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< A person with a 14- in a PS which, as you described it, has more to do with 
running a business -- any business -- than repairing cars, and who happens 
to have an 8- FAM with Mechanics isn't by definition a mechanic. >> 
 
  This thread is starting to read like the "Argument Clinic" sketch from Monty 
Python. ::sigh:: 
 
  "Look, I don't want to argue about that!" 
 
  "Ah, but you came here to argue." 
 
  IMO, the guy in my example abovbe is every bit as much a mechanic by as is 
the guy who has PS: Mechanic and nothing else. So there. :P 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo mail.stlnet.com from baron@stlnet.com server root@mail.stlnet.com ip 209.96.6.16 
From: "Robert" <baron@stlnet.com> 
To: "Champs" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: DC Heroes and D6 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:00:16 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<x-html><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"> 
<HTML> 
<HEAD> 
 
<META content=text/html;charset=iso-8859-1 http-equiv=Content-Type> 
<META content='"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=GENERATOR> 
</HEAD> 
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff> 
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>I know this is not a Champions thing, but I  
thought fans of DC or D6 might want to know the following. This is a reply to a  
letter I got back from Eric Trautmann of West End Games. </FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2></FONT><FONT  
size=2>______________________________________________________________________</FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial size=2>&lt;&lt;I am a fan of D6 and wish to  
know also about your plans for DC Heroes RPG<BR>which you have acquired the  
rights to produce. Will it be a D6 system? &gt;&gt;<BR><BR>It is a variant  
version of the D6 Rules called &quot;D6 Prime&quot;--it is similar to<BR>what we  
used in our Hercules &amp; Xena game (which ships in the next few weeks).<BR>It  
is easily converted to D6; the main difference is the die rolling  
mechanic.<BR>Instead of counting up your dice for a total, you count 5s and 6s  
as<BR>successes. The overall difference is lower difficulty&nbsp; numbers. By  
multiplying<BR>the difficulty numbers by 3, you can run it using the standard D6  
rules.</FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial size=2>Eric Trautmann<BR>WEG</FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial  
size=2>_________________________________________________________________</FONT></DIV> 
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV> 
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial size=2>Sorry for all the devoted Champs fans  
who wish not to have their list sullied with the concerns of other game  
companies and other peoples heroes. Thanks for your  
time.<BR><BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML> 
</x-html>Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo17.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo17.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.39 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:01:02 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< Where would this stop, and how would you decide where to draw the line? >> 
 
  Based on one's desired level of detail. :) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo27.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo27.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.71 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:04:18 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< But a business major with a FAM in Law isn't a lawyer, any more than a 
business major with a FAM in Mechanics is an auto mechanic. >> 
 
  On the contrary. All that being a mechanic "requires" is PS: Mechanic and 
Mechanics skill. Now are we to put minimum level requirements on them as well. 
Doesn't *that* go against the philosophy of reducing the level of detail? ;) 
 
  If someone with PS: Techer 8- is a crappy teacher but STILL a teacher, then 
someone with PS: Mechanic 14- and Mechanics 8- is STILL a mechanic. ;) 
 
<< You look closer and find it's an MBA from Harvard Business School. "It's 
okay," he assures you, "I took pre-med as well." This man is not a doctor; in 
a realistically handled campaign, there'd probably be no way for him to obtain 
a license to practice as one.  Someone with only a FAM in Law probably cannot 
pass the bar, and *may* not have graduated law school. >> 
 
  UNLESS the Familiarity level in indicative of a skill gained long ago but 
which degraded over time. ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Proffesional Skills x2 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 15 Apr 1998 23:11:24 -0400 
Lines: 28 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Sakura  writes: 
 
>> That is Bureacracy, not Teaching. 
 
> Actually, Bureaucracy is more 'general'. 
 
Then a more specific "subskill" of Bureaucracy.  Because "PS: Teacher" is 
not a bureaucratic skill, it is a skill concerned with teaching.  The guy 
that teaches high school physics in Brighton, MA, has PS: Teacher.  The guy 
that teaches Kung Fu in a small monastary in the outlands of China has PS: 
Teacher. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use 
Charset: noconv 
 
iQCVAwUBNTV2256VRH7BJMxHAQGCTwP/dnR4oHgqCse8ZeoBo2HDNx68klREVRYi 
yVgPXr2iwt0g8uYm29Ax1tTJzdNCCgWi6byGR1mwHMwA+8A47pTpuh4ZvqclmaI1 
+z6u3nmdpiS7A0iueymJOqlmEccy8f3YHA1sXWKSzy6epNiSBKO+aJPVam1k1bZb 
TA/PU3ONxqY= 
=+thv 
-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo27.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo27.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.71 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:13:37 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< I don't understand your reluctance to support your position with published 
rules.  *Much* of it is common sense, but unless you take the view that one of 
us is completely devoid of common sense, this specific point apparently falls 
outside the range of "much". >> 
 
  If nothing I've said (keeping in mind that I am a publisher of Hero System 
books) has given you pause to consider the possibility that my suggestion for 
handling PSs is just as valid as the "skills lite" method, then why in the 
world would quoting previously published rules matter? 
 
<< I think I'm making a reasonable argument here, and explaining both by 
example and by rules citation why I think so. >> 
 
  I think you are a rules-centric player and that is fine. If the printed word 
is all you want to base your gaming decisions on then that's fine. More power 
to you. But please don't preach about the rules. We write and publish rules. 
<LOL> 
 
<< ...it seems to boil down to "I say this is how PS works because I say 
that's how the rules work".  I still don't know what leads you to this 
particular interpretation. >> 
 
  That is your own erroneous inference of the comments I've made. If you or 
anyone else want to continue to skip past the "option" and "anyway you want" 
and "opinions" comments I've made, then this conversation has outlasted its 
usefulness. I'm not going to argue with anyone about this. It is simply one 
manner of handling PSs, and the method I prefer. You can do it any way you 
want. It's your game. Period. Just quit trying to tell me I'm wrong, because 
niether of us is "wrong," okay? 
 
<< Your view is one possible interpretation, not the only one. >> 
 
  Funny, I have been one of those saying that from the beginning. Why do you 
try to make me out to be some kind of closed-minded person on this issue? I 
never claimed mine was the only way. 
 
<< The fact that I have offered specific supporting evidence for my view does 
NOT mean that mine is the better argument, but IMO it does mean my argument is 
presently the only supported one at the table, making it harder for me to 
compare the 
virtues of my position with the virtues of yours.>> 
 
  Again, if you want to stay mired in rules, then that is your choice. I 
prefer a different style of game play and character creation. That's all. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo imo13.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo13.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.35 
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:17:45 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< Flatly refusing to respond to my requests, calling the whole question silly 
and laughing at me as you wave the Big Stick of the Licensed Publisher is 
really not calculated to help my mood. >> 
 
  I have no intention of affecting your mood either way with my comments. I 
simply think this whole thread has gotten silly. 
 
<< I respect your right to a differing viewpoint.  I accept that yours *may 
be* the [more nearly] correct viewpoint, and have asked for evidence of this 
-- some indication that your system is in fact what the original writers had 
in mind all along -- and you haven't offered me any. >> 
 
  To a degree, it's less important what they had in mind 10 years ago. What do 
they have in mind now? Modifications and clarifications are one of the reasons 
for the new 5th Edition of the rules. 
 
  Now if you'll excuse me, I have to do the layouts for San Angelo. ;) 
 
  Take care, and good gaming. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2 
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:19:39 -0500 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: The Average man... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>With regards to your 'nothing I've objected to so far has anything to do 
>with combat' - why should it be any different when it involves combat?  
 
Why shouldn't it?   
 
 If 
>PS: Knight or Gladiator /doesn't/ cover fighting, then isn't that claiming 
>(as you say below) that 'PS means one thing if the profession it 
>represents is "important" and something else if the profession isn't 
>"important".'? 
 
No, because IF after taking the time to consider it I decided combat should 
be excluded from these considerations, it wouldn't be because I think 
combat is "important", it'd be because combat is already handled separately 
in the game; Skill Levels and Combat Skill Levels, for example, are not 
interchangeable.  Combat isn't based directly on DEX, but on the 
intermediate OCV/DCV rating, which is routinely modified up or down without 
affecting the base DEX.  Since the game already treats combat as separate 
from other Skill uses, I expect I'd find it inconsistent for me to try and 
incorporate it into ordinary Skill use. 
 
>So in your system, PS: Private Investigator would subsume Interrogation, 
>Deduction, Investigation, Shadowing, Bureaucracy, and all the other 
>skills related to Private Detecting?   
 
No, under my system a person is allowed to hold a job as a P.I. with 
nothing more than the PS: Private Investigator and his Everyman Skills in 
Concealment, Shadowing and Deduction, all at 8-.  He won't be as effective 
as someone who buys those things as full Skills, probably along with 
others, but he *is* a legal character and he *is* entitled to the job. 
 
Actually, though I've slipped up on this elsewhere myself, what I'm 
desciribing is not "my system", but rather, an explanation of what I think 
the existing system is.  But that takes too long to say every time... 
 
>If I were a backyard mechanic, and became a professional, shouldn't I get 
>a price break on PS: Mechanic because I already have the skill?  If not, 
>I'm paying twice for the same thing. 
 
Oh?  How much credit did the vocational school give you for the time spent 
in your back yard?  It's not unreasonable that you'd still have to pay the 
full price for the PS, because not only will you be learning how to do more 
things, you will in some cases be re-learning how to do some of the things 
you can already do; that is, how to do them the "right" way. 
 
>PS: Cat Burglar would likewise, under your system, seem to encompass 
>Stealth, Lockpicking, Streetwise, a bit of Merchant... 
 
You are twisting this.  I don't suggest foregoing EXISTING Skills that are 
obviously useful and complementary to the profession.  I resist the notion 
that along with those Skills, the professional cat burglar must create and 
purchase a new Skill called Burglary. 
 
>How about PS: Fast Food Cook vs. PS: Brain Surgeon?  A neurosurgeon has to 
>spend years and years in training, and must have lots of specialized 
>knowledge to do what he does.  Shouldn't it cost more, because it 
>encompasses so much more than how long to leave the fries in the oil? 
 
Again, this isn't the issue I'm addressing.  The problem I have is with the 
notion that in order to do their jobs at the base level, each of the above 
must purchase Cooking or Surgery, respectively in addition to the PS 
listed.  A complementary KS (and in the case of the surgeon, an SS) 
wouldn't be amiss, but I see no need to make up new Skills for fry cooks or 
brain surgeons.  Since cooking is a skill that can be self-taught, or 
picked up initally as a hobby, like computer programming or mechanics, I 
would not think it inappropriate if someone wanted to write up Cooking as a 
separate Skill.  I would, however, be surprised if it happened, given the 
low level of "importance" (read: game impact) such a Skill would generally 
have. 
 
>It seems to me that you are treating "Professional Skill' as some kind of 
>massive package deal that encompasses literally everything that might be 
>done by a particular profession, even if there are other skills for it in 
>the game.  I think that approach is pretty inconsistent, /and/ it means 
>that you effectively cannot build certain types of characters - a teacher 
>who can't teach but has tenure, for example, or even a character who is 
>much better at one aspect of their profession than another. 
 
This is absurd.  (1) I am not trying to stuff a dozen useful Skills into a 
single PS, I am simply saying there should be no need to CREATE NEW SKILLS 
(not that there should be no need to purchase additional existing ones) in 
order for someone with a PS to do his job at the base level of ability. 
(2) All teachers, by definition, can teach.  Some do it poorly.  I confess 
my imagination is not sufficient to envision a tenured (thus, experienced) 
professional who is absolutely incapable of imparting ANY information to 
ANY student under ANY circumstances.  (3) Skill Roll, Skill Roll, Skill 
Roll.  This is one of the more obvious ways of measuring the capabilities 
of a person with any Skill, PS included, as compared with those of another 
person with the same Skill.  I am completely mystified at why you think 
this will no longer be possible if you stick with the existing PS and any 
existing Skills you bought for the character.  
 
>Under your system, all professional mechanics that are good at fixing cars 
>are /also/ good at paperwork, operating the register, dealing with the 
>state bureaucracy to get their certification, etc. Under your system, all 
>professional programmers are equally good at both hacking code and doing 
>all the procedural stuff that comes along with being a programmer.  I can 
>assure you from experience that this is not the case.  
 
No, the mechanic has an 11- (or whatever rating he paid for) as an overall 
measure of how good he is at his job, which includes paperwork, getting 
certification, etc.  Of course he'll be better at some job tasks than 
others.  Similar reasoning applies to the programmer; one will be great at 
hacking but may not be able to follow procedure very well, while another 
has all the approved styles and protocols memorized but wouldn't know where 
to begin to hack into a "secure" server.   When you get a Job Performance 
Evaluation (or whatever it may be called) it is generally true that you get 
numeric ratings describing your performance in key job areas.  You also get 
an aggregate score.  The PS can be related to the aggregate score.  If you 
want to add the detail of bonuses and penalties to Skill Rolls when 
specific job tasks are attempted, to reflect the fact that you are better 
at some things than others, that's up to you.  I wouldn't recommend it 
myself, nor does anything in "my system" require it. 
 
Damon 
 
 
|--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************| 
|--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/     | 
|   Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines           | 
|       Worthy Causes -- Computer -- Atlanta -- All Human Knowledge  | 
|--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
 
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> 
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f 
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2 
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net 
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:23:59 -0500 
To: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts), champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Politics in the game... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>>  Now this is an interesting observation. Do you have any examples? 
> 
>Or better yet, definitions?  "Liberal" and "Conservative" mean different