Week Ending April 25, 1998
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 11:11:56 +1000 (EST)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: The source of all power?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 02:14 PM 4/17/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Message text written by GoldRushG
>> Some people have an easier time suspending their disbelief if there is a
>story-based mechanic in place to "allow" things to happen. Without it,
>there
>is nothing to fall back on, nothing to "blame" for the weirdness of the
>setting. ;) Some people don't like that.<
>
>I suppose that's understandable, but wouldn't these people have problems
>with comic books too? I'm pretty sure Marvel and Image don't have a
>"father of all powers" concept, and I'd guess that DC doesn't either.
>
didn't dc just recently do a sotory which showed a wall or something
at the end of the nuiverse, which was beaming out the power used by gods and
superheroes?
>> Other benefits of defining such a force include: plot hooks, story
>threads,
>etc. But those are things we're not going to be covering for a while. We'll
>let folks romp around in the city and have fun for a while before we start
>exploring some of that stuff. ;)<
>
>I can see the benefits as far as story goes, and I'd rather have it than
>not have it, but I don't see why the lack of such a concept would be
>considered a downfall of Champions Universe. It seems like a minor detail
>when compared to all the other information that a book like CU or San
>Angelo would provide.
>
>
well, perhaps the concept being adressed is the issue. Other games
leave this blank, the two approaches mentiobned thus far at least
give to option of a unified effect.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: The Average man...
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Date: 17 Apr 1998 21:21:50 -0400
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Goode, Jason writes:
> It may not be for you, but it is for me.
When was the last time you had a PC make a "Teaching" skill roll during a
gaming session?
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Ultimate Utility Belt
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-7,16-17,22-24
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 21:27:13 EDT
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>I have almost finished converting Batman's utility belt (which has to be
>the mother of them all) from DCH over to Hero and was wondering what
>other cool gadgets people have written themselves they might want to
>submit, or what gadgets people are having trouble with which I could
>try and do.
Actually, I'd appreciate some help/feedback on a gadget I'm working on.
My very first Champs character was a stunt actress and martial artist who
got enhanced DEX and SPD from an attack by Deathsinger. Unfortunately,
the high intensity sonics also slagged her inner ears, leaving her deaf
(I know this combination wouldn't work in reality, it's comic book
physiology). Back when I was playing her, we pretty much ignored her
deafness unless it was important to the story; but I'd like to update her
as a solo hero, and she'll need some way to find out about crimes. What
I'd like her to carry is a radio that works like a display pager --
instead of a speaker or earphone, the messages are displayed on a screen.
Now for the question: what's the best way to model this? A minicomputer
with radio hearing and Universal Translator (defined as translating sound
to print), Detect: Radio Signal with suitable modifiers, or just buy a
regular OAF radio and handwave the display screen? (I don't much like
the last option, but I'm willing to be persuaded.)
Leah
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge
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Bob Greenwade writes:
> Why does D's DCV affect A's chance to hit in the proposed Block method,
> and not in the standard block method?
Because in the proposed block method, A's chance of getting past D's block
is directly dependant upon how much his attack roll beats the roll he
needs, which is directly dependant on D's DCV. Watch:
A rolls 11, hitting D's DCV even. D must roll 11- (11 - 0) to block.
A rolls 10, hitting D's DCV by 1. D must roll 10- (11 - 1) to block.
A rolls 9, hitting D's DCV by 2. D must roll 9- (11 - 2) to block.
A rolls 8, hitting D's DCV by 3. D must roll 8- (11 - 3) to block.
etc.
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 11:36:41 +1000 (EST)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: The source of all power?/origins?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> The problem (as I've had it given to me) is that CU doesn't only not
>give a "blanket explanation" for all powers, but doesn't do very much to
>really explain why *any* type of superpower works in this universe when it
>wouldn't in our own. There isn't even an "X-gene" type of thing to explain
>why mutants are so different from other types of paranormal.
> Note that while I do consider this to be a weakness, I consider it a
>fairly piddling little thing. It's others (most of whom, I think, are no
>longer on this list for various reasons) who have made a big issue out of it.
> Heck, I don't even know that I go along with the need for flux or Gate
>Keys or that kind of thing to explain *all* paranormal abilities. It is
>cool to have, and I'm not against it; it just seems like a unnecessary
>thing (aside from the story hooks and such Mark mentioned).
>---
Well, i'd think a few ppl are a tad leery of another singularity
orbiting the earth's core....that's what, four or five down
there now? *j/k*
ANYway, i think it's way more fun for us to blab about th origins we thought
up along these lines. I've seen a few posted here but i think some genuinly
wierd ones are worth mentioning. Below are a few i've come across, note none
of these are nesecarily the only reason for powers to exist:
Time-travel crossbreeding: The subject is a result of a breeding experiment
useing contributors from across time. This isn't your normal 'from the future,
hence is really fit' idea, but instead it suggests that at point zero
(modern day)
a superior human can exist due to gene matter taken from point X (the future)
and used in exaustive breeding on a remote island in point -X (the past). When
I used this concept i added the idea that all that time travel had a
mutating effect-
the people doing it just thought they were really good at eugenics
(neo-nazi's from the
future are in the high risk group for delusions of grandur) but in reality
the subjects
were tapping into power on the quantum level, hence allowing all sorts of
goofy-ass
super stuff.
Crippled Telekinesis: This idea hinges on telekinesis. Basicallly it suggests
that almost all powers of a particular sort are based on telekinesis used in
different ways: to enhance strength, fly, fire energy blasts, ect- but because
contemporary humans haven't been trained to use their talent, they manifest in
wierd, limited ways, often linked to the subject's personality and/or
self-image.
Hence a fireman might become invunerable to fire, or might learn to fly-
both are
TK, it's just he's learnt to use it in different ways. This is a good silod
rationale
for adjustment powers although not all powers can be explained- anyone
looking for an
ultimate reductionist or 'grand unification' view of power, i ended up with
three,
all working from the 'limited use' rationale. They were Telekinesis,
Telepathy, and
Shapeshifting.
Hard Light Loonies: I actually did this one in a cyberpunk game. A bunch of
well meaning
posers(called the champions) got hold of some experimental ahrd-light
hologram technology.
the tech was junked because A)it didn;t work useing conventional
transmission techniques
B)Those developing virtuality didn't want any competition and C) arasaka
didn't like the
idea of near-indestructable remote controled super soldiers which were
potentially as
unmanagable as information. So this poser gang, they get the blueprints for
the system,
and they get the blueprints for a highly experimental subspace transmission
system, and
they put them together, and in no time the champions are flying around the
city fighting
crime, beating up[ mech and gnerally being annoying. Because none of the
corps ever herd
of subspace they were safe from tracking, but it didn't stop another bunch
of loonies
from making up their own 'villain' group. .. the idea here was the unreality of
superheroes. all of the champions solidgrams were virtually indestructable,
could become
desolid, and could lift about ton as a base. so even though 'seeker' could
walk through
small arms fire, he still doged around like he was in danger, ect.
anyone else got any cool origin concepts like this?
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
>Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
>
>
>
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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 22:13:29 -0400 (EDT)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: (L&O) Some Cop Equipment
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>Perhaps I've read it wrong, but I've always treated straight detect as
>binary, i.e., "Detect Gold" = Yes, this is gold or No, this is Not gold.
>Normally detailed descriprions require Discriminatory.
Hard to say. For example, human smell is not considered (AFAIK)
discriminatory, but you can tell an apple pie from a cherry pie by smell
alone. If the radar gun could tell you the make of car being scanned, that
would IMHO be discriminatory. If it's just giving a single piece of data
(position, or speed), that's more of a non-discriminatory sense/detect.
I guess it really depends on the sense. Detect Gold would probably be a
binary yes/no sense, but I'd give it a "little/much/lots/motherload" scale
as well, without discriminatory. Discriminatory Detect Gold would tell you
the Karat purity and # of Troy Ounces involved.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Now, we get bigger guns."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins and Ron Prins
jprins@interhop.net
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: The source of all power?/origins?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>anyone else got any cool origin concepts like this?
One easy explanation I've wanted to use (but haven't) is that reality is
malleable, and individuals with strong willpower (or powerful _delusions_)
are capable of manipulating reality.
This would account for superpowers, as well as the 'extreme' and irrational
viewpoints held by so many supers. Airman really, really believes he can
fly, and so he does! Joe Normal, on the other hand, tries to believe he can
fly but he's just too rational, he knows that science doesn't support his idea.
Note that the collective will of humanity would have an effect on this as
well. The Reniassance and 'Age of Reason' would have wiped out all
'supernatural' creatures like trolls and dragons because people in general
stopped believing in them. Most of the powerful modern faiths would
contribute to this, as Christianity, Islam and Bhuddism are generally low on
the miracle expectation scale.
Of course, in the modern world, as New Ageism and 'spirituality' takes hold,
more supernatural stuff is bound to spring up. Also, all those people
brought up reading lots of fiction over the last 60 years ups the collective
imagination; not to mention the potential reality warping from all that
television and movies...no wonder superheroes and villians start popping out
of the woodwork, once a sort of 'critical mass' has been achieved...
Of course, the ultimate reality warping skill is labelled 'magic' - mages
are really the only folks who understand how reality _really_ works once you
get past the 'crude' physics.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Now, we get bigger guns."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins and Ron Prins
jprins@interhop.net
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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 21:31:01 -0500
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Teaching (was RE: The Average man...)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 05:25 PM 4/17/98 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote:
>Without one, characters (PC or NPC) cannot teach other characters (PC or
>NPC) anything other than the most basic of skills, unless they are
>professional teachers. This is important in the context of our games, since
>our characters need justification for gaining in abilities. Thus, we have
>Teaching skill.
We *don't* have the Teaching Skill. It doesn't exist in any Hero rules
edition, supplement or product I'm aware of. You can create it it for home
use if you like, of course, and it is something a non-professional should
be able to do. However, it may be *so* basic that it should be considered
an Everyman Skill (only as a FAM, of course). Teaching at its core is
nothing more than the passing on of knowledge or a skill. Simple
communication between two people, and the ability on the part of the
receipient of the information to learn, are all that is required for that.
I assume you had no professional instructor to teach to how to roleplay?
I don't believe you said that *nothing* could be taught without benefit of
the Teaching Skill, but I didn't see anything suggesting where you'd draw
the line. Parents teach their children; do all parents have the Teaching
Skill, or do all the things parents teach their kids fall under "the most
basic of skills" as you described it?
What about being self-taught? I can acquire some skills through practice,
with no more instruction than might be found in a textbook or manual.
Would you automatically classify *any* skill that can be acquired this way
as "most basic"?
If Teaching is required for complex or especially esoteric Skills, okay.
I'd like to see some idea of what kinds of things you do (and do not) thing
require this special training on the part of an instructor. Martial Arts
and Survival, apparently, you put in the former catagory. What else?
Damon
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 21:38:20 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Ultimate Utility Belt
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>My very first Champs character was a stunt actress and martial artist who
>got enhanced DEX and SPD from an attack by Deathsinger. Unfortunately,
>the high intensity sonics also slagged her inner ears, leaving her deaf
>(I know this combination wouldn't work in reality, it's comic book
>physiology). Back when I was playing her, we pretty much ignored her
>deafness unless it was important to the story; but I'd like to update her
>as a solo hero, and she'll need some way to find out about crimes. What
>I'd like her to carry is a radio that works like a display pager --
>instead of a speaker or earphone, the messages are displayed on a screen.
>
>Now for the question: what's the best way to model this? A minicomputer
>with radio hearing and Universal Translator (defined as translating sound
>to print), Detect: Radio Signal with suitable modifiers, or just buy a
>regular OAF radio and handwave the display screen? (I don't much like
>the last option, but I'm willing to be persuaded.)
A non-hearing impaired follower who signs? or does your character read
lips? If the gadget angle is important to the character concept, give her
a visored helmet and let the follower type messages on his laptop which are
transmitted via wireless modem to a heads-up display inside the helmet.
Damon
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From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net>
To: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com&> <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Babylon 5
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 21:43:15 -0500
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----Original Message-----
From: Goode, Jason <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Friday, April 17, 1998 7:36 PM
Subject: RE: Babylon 5
>Well, I have it, but since it looks like I'm not going to be playing any
>time soon, I haven't read it. I heard plenty of good reviews on the B5 RPG
>list and even the B5W list. I, too, think a Psi-Cop campaign would be
cool.
>I scanned the book for references to military teeps, but I didn't find
>anything.
>
>Jason Goode
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: TokyoMark [SMTP:bastet@iquest.net]
>> Sent: Friday, April 17, 1998 6:08 PM
>> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
>> Subject: Babylon 5
>>
>>
>> I have the Babylon Project RPG, and it does indeed look accurate. But
>> starting off running would still take alot of work. If you have not
>> watched all the series so far, the game gives pretty sketchy info on the
>> universe and seems to assume you'll be running a Earthforce game. Since
>> one of my thoughts was a Psicop campaign, this will still take alot of
>> work. Can anyone comment on the Earthforce Source book?
>>
Personally, I was working on a Teenagers From Outer Space game, called
Babylon High. It never worked out.
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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 21:45:16 -0500
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Art/Craft Skills
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Tim Gilberg mentioned the need for Art Skills, similar to Science Skills.
I thought Crafts could be lumped in with these. Most crafts (netmaking,
weaving, pottery, brewing) are more likely to be of practical day-to-day
use than most arts (singing, painting, sculpting), if only in Fantasy Hero
or a Lands of Mystery setting.
Were you planning to share your thoughts on Art Skills with us, Tim? It
was your idea.
Damon
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: The Average man...
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 22:48:35 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Last session, actually. One of the PCs is a medical doctor and he is trying
to teach one of the other PCs basic and advanced first aid (Paramedic). His
reasoning is threefold: 1) so that there's a backup in case *he* goes down,
2) to help auto wreck/fire/drowning/earthquake/etc rescuees when there
aren't any paramedics on the scene, and 3) to help with innocent bystanders
who get injured in a supers fight.
Jason Goode
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stainless Steel Rat [SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net]
> Sent: Friday, April 17, 1998 9:22 PM
> To: Champions
> Subject: Re: The Average man...
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Goode, Jason writes:
>
> > It may not be for you, but it is for me.
>
> When was the last time you had a PC make a "Teaching" skill roll during a
> gaming session?
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: The source of all power?/origins?
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 23:35:04 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Sort of a WhiteWolf/Storyteller thing...
Just as good as the 'Source', a metagene, a mutant mini-black hole orbiting
the Earth's core, or a 'Gate Key', whatever that is...
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jprins@interhop.net [SMTP:jprins@interhop.net]
> Sent: Friday, April 17, 1998 10:29 PM
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: The source of all power?/origins?
>
> >anyone else got any cool origin concepts like this?
>
> One easy explanation I've wanted to use (but haven't) is that reality is
> malleable, and individuals with strong willpower (or powerful _delusions_)
> are capable of manipulating reality.
>
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Art/Craft Skills
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Date: 17 Apr 1998 23:42:20 -0400
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Michael (Damon) or Peni R Griffin writes:
> Tim Gilberg mentioned the need for Art Skills, similar to Science Skills.
> I thought Crafts could be lumped in with these.
Remember one very important point. Things that cost points in Hero have
immediate, practical use within the context of the game at hand. Or at
least they are supposed to be. If you spend points on it, you should be
able to get use out of it equivalent to the points spent.
When adding something to the system, you have to ask yourself if that
something adds something of immediate, practical use. If you do not answer
with a strong affirmative, you might want to reconsider.
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
Cc: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Examples (Was RE: Politics in the game)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 23:43:48 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Continuing with the 'R' theme:
How about Resurrection, who can heal with a touch or draw out your soul
(strong Aids/Drains). (S)he could also be an aspect of the Holy Ghost/Angel
of Death (phasing powers).
Or the Reverend, who preaches (vocal mind control) and can call down the
Lord's Wrath (pillar of white holy flame/transformation into salt/whatever)
upon those who will not heed his words.
Or that guy from 'Pulp Fiction': Pulls out his guns and says: "And I will
strike upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger, those who attempt
to poison and destroy my brothers, and you will know My name is the Lord,
when I lay my vengeance upon thee!" Attacks against him seem to somehow
miss him and his wallet has "Bad Motherfucker" embroidered on it.
Jason Goode
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim R. Gilberg [SMTP:trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu]
> Sent: Friday, April 17, 1998 12:52 AM
> To: Goode, Jason
> Cc: 'Champions'
> Subject: Re: Examples (Was RE: Politics in the game)
>
>
> > Again, check the five above-mentioned characters. They do make up,
> at
> > least somewhat, for Reverend Billy Bob, Julie Rainbow, and Rev. Gil
> Purdue
> > (although I do think -- and I say this as a conservative Christian
> myself
> > -- that this last fellow would be a great foil for an all-Christian hero
> > team!).
>
> Good points on positive Conservatives. I'm trying to recall
> others, myself.
>
> I'm working on a Christian Hero/Villian group. I'm going with the
> currently popular assumption of Gabrial as a semi-rogue angel trying to
> take the top ArchAngel spot from Michael. She's (yes, she) has come to
> Earth assuming that all the supernatural/superhuman activity is an
> abhorrance and is starting a group to try to wipe it out, being an Angel
> hero for getting rid of the menace. So far I've got Revelation, a MA with
> a spiritual sword of holy white flame, and Rapture, a female flying EB
> with holy white flame. I'm trying to think of a third so I can call the
> team The Trinity, but haven't been able to think of a cool term. Anyone?
>
>
>
> -Tim Gilberg
>
> -"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:44:34 +1000 (EST)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: The source of all power?/origins?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Nice idea, that's the type of thig i'm looking for.
White wolf tried this sort of, and the point of discourse is-
during the industrial revolution, why did the european psyce overwhelm
all those wichdoctor and spirit-obsessed cultures? I mean they didn't have
the population really, although you could argue that there were wizards
siding with the neoimperialists i suppose, 'tweaking' the reality wave or
something.. . .
At 10:28 PM 4/17/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>anyone else got any cool origin concepts like this?
>
>One easy explanation I've wanted to use (but haven't) is that reality is
>malleable, and individuals with strong willpower (or powerful _delusions_)
>are capable of manipulating reality.
>
>This would account for superpowers, as well as the 'extreme' and irrational
>viewpoints held by so many supers. Airman really, really believes he can
>fly, and so he does! Joe Normal, on the other hand, tries to believe he can
>fly but he's just too rational, he knows that science doesn't support his idea.
>
>Note that the collective will of humanity would have an effect on this as
>well. The Reniassance and 'Age of Reason' would have wiped out all
>'supernatural' creatures like trolls and dragons because people in general
>stopped believing in them. Most of the powerful modern faiths would
>contribute to this, as Christianity, Islam and Bhuddism are generally low on
>the miracle expectation scale.
>
>Of course, in the modern world, as New Ageism and 'spirituality' takes hold,
>more supernatural stuff is bound to spring up. Also, all those people
>brought up reading lots of fiction over the last 60 years ups the collective
>imagination; not to mention the potential reality warping from all that
>television and movies...no wonder superheroes and villians start popping out
>of the woodwork, once a sort of 'critical mass' has been achieved...
>
>Of course, the ultimate reality warping skill is labelled 'magic' - mages
>are really the only folks who understand how reality _really_ works once you
>get past the 'crude' physics.
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Now, we get bigger guns."
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>John D. Prins and Ron Prins
>jprins@interhop.net
>
>
>
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: The Average man...
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Goode, Jason writes:
> Last session, actually. One of the PCs is a medical doctor and he is
> trying to teach one of the other PCs basic and advanced first aid
> (Paramedic). [...]
Do not take this too badly, please, but this sounds more like roll playing
than role playing. The dice are more important to what is going on than
character development.
If a character wants to learn something, the GM decides whether or not the
would-be instructor can teach it and how long it will take the would-be
student to learn it. If the character sticks to his studies, he can spend
the experience at the end of the prescribed period. No dice rolling is
need, nor is any valuable game session time wasted on something that should
probably be handled "off-line".
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From: Pat10355 <Pat10355@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 00:11:27 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: San Angelo continuity
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<<I guess what I'm asking is, will the San Angelo timeline advance through
various supplements with world events similar to the Assault on Sanctuary
or the temporary conquering of SA by aliens or whatever, with future
supplements referencing these events, or will supplements essentially add
new "features" (like a new villain group) to the current day San Angelo?>>
Thanks for your interest in San Angleo: City of Heroes! As the original author
and continuity editor for the San Angelo line, I wanted to add my comments to
Mark Arsenault's.
Our continuity goals are twofold:
1) New books will be consistent with prior publications, and will not
introduce NPCs, corporations and other aspects of the world that duplicate
existing elements.
We certainly intend to expand the city and world in subsequent books -- by
adding fresh new NPCs, agencies, places and businesses. Introducing duplicates
of things that already exist in the world sows needless confusion and does no
one any good.
In future books, we hope to strike a balance between providing new material
and offering expanded details on previously introduced elements.
2) A loose storyline will unfold as new books appear. Actually, we have ideas
for a number of story arcs, some short-term and some ongoing.
Our chief goal, however, remains producing books that are helpful to gamers.
Any story elements in new books are going to be structured so that they can be
altered, customized or even ignored if the GM so desires. We'll likely throw
in some tips on how to do it, and some options to help fit the book into your
campaign.
It's your world, after all. :)
Patrick Sweeney
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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 21:11:45 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Bob Greenwade writes:
>
> > You slipped again there, Rat. Block can be Aborted to. That means that
> > you *can*, as Rick said, wait until you know that someone is going to try
> > to attack you before deciding to Block.
>
> Read what Rick wrote again. He was describing the making of the Block roll
> *AFTER* the attacker makes his attack roll. In essence, allowing you to
> pick the action to which you abort after you know whether or not you will
> be hit, and by how much.
No, sorry, but you have to read what I sent again. At no point did I say
that you declare a block after the attack roll. I said you declare a block after
the attack statement but before the attack roll. So, your opponent winds up, you
say you attempt to block, he attacks and IF he hits, you roll the block based on
how well he hits.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 21:23:55 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Low Gravity and STR
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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Jeff M. Reid wrote:
>
> > So, if we are in a stable orbit, or interstellar space (ie, weightless),
> do
> > we all get plus one zillion Str? To put it another way, ever hear of
> something
> > called inertia?
>
> Well, actually yes, sort of. What I think you're thinking of as inertia is
> really something different -- inertia describes the tendency of an object
> that is at rest to remain at rest unless (and this is the important part)
> acted upon by an outside force. So if you are hovering absolutely
> motionless in interstellar space alongside a massive object (let's say the
> Titanic - don't ask how it got there), and you kick off of that object, the
> force of that kick will be divided between you and the Titanic. Since you
> have so much less mass, the force will have a much more obvious effect on
> you and you will begin moving in the opposite direction relative to the
> force you applied. However, the Titanic will also begin moving away from
> you, but since it is so much more massive, the effect will be much, much
> smaller. Unless and until some other outside force acts upon it, it will
> keep moving in that direction ad infinitum.
>
> This is of course an incredible simplification, and it far surpasses the
> extent of my limited physics knowledge to calculate how fast the Titanic
> would actually move.
Mass x Velocity = Mass x Velocity. It all balances. Find out how heavy
the Titanic was and go from there.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 21:34:51 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Power Question: Gas Cloud
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-- Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> That is an interesting point... if Continuing Charges requires that an
> instant power be made Continuous, should Damage Shield have the same
> requirement? Or is this subsumed as part of the trade-off with the "free"
> No Range limitation?
I'm not aware of any place that states that a power with charges
that has an extended time needs also to have Continuous or are we talking
about different effects?
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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 21:40:55 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Professional Skills
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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bobby farris wrote:
>
> Seems to me there is a lot of talk about what exactly a
> Proffesional Skill covers and what it doesn't cover so I am including my
> own House rules here for you to flame on.
>
> If there are no other applicable skills to the Proffesion, such
> as Pro Football player, then the
> PS: Football Player gives the player:
> a) the ability to play Football,
> b) the ability to know the rules of Football,
> c) the ability to know the little things a football star would
> know like other players, agents, rules of the league, etc.
The professional skill gives you the ability to DO the job, the
part that gets your hands dirty. The knowledge skill gives you the ability
to KNOW about the job and the ins and outs that can come about. Thats what
I've always believed.
I would call items a and b as part of the professional skill and
item c part of the knowledge skill based on my understanding of the system.
--
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Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Teaching (was RE: The Average man...)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 00:55:38 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
You know, you guys seem to be having way too many hang ups with this.
You only really three points here, "we have a skill called teaching",
"learning w/o receiving instruction", and "where do you draw the line as to
what needs a teacher and what doesn't". I'll address each one specifically.
"we have a skill called teaching"
"We" was as in "we - my group that meets once a week and has a really good
time", NOT as in "we - all of my fellow Champions players throughout the
world, except for the C:NM ones who actually do have a
printed-in-the-rulebook skill called teaching." Take a breath now, relax.
"learning w/o instruction"
This is perfectly acceptable to me. In many, if not most, cases, you don't
*need* a teacher. I, myself, happen to be a fast learner and pretty good at
picking things up on my own. I taught myself both how to drive and how to
program, for example. On the other hand, it has taken me 18 years to learn
how to roleplay and GM. Guess what? I'm still learning. However,
self-teaching *generally* takes much longer than when someone is right there
showing you. If this person happens to be a good teacher (professional or
not), then you learn even better and faster.
Another example of this is when I learned to change the brakes on my car. I
bought a manual, new break pads and went down to the garage to change them
(Army bases have garages where soldiers can work on their cars, rent tools
and even get assistance for practically nothing - at least Ft. Bragg does).
I opened the manual and started in. I had one of the front tires off and
was trying to translate the words and poor pictures on the page into what I
was seeing. I'm sure I would have eventually figured it out, but one of the
old guys who worked there came over after watching me fumble around for a
while. "Ya cain't lurn from no book, son!" I still remember that voice.
He started showing me how to take the front pads off. I was watching him
like a hawk and picking it up, but in the back of my head, I had thoughts
going on that were distracting from the learning process: "It's obvious I
don't know what I'm doing. Why can't this guy speak in terms I can
understand? Does he have to be so condescending? Why does it matter if I
down-shift or not? etc." He didn't seem the type to take well to
suggestions about his teaching technique, so I just kept quiet and watched.
We worked our way around to the back - the drums. I hadn't gotten anything
for them, so he send me to the store, while he 'machined the drums', which I
gathered was some process of smoothing them out or something. When I got
back, the old guy wasn't around, but the guy working on the car in the next
stall came over. He told me that the guy had gone to lunch, but I had to do
was put the new rear brakes in. I told him (his name was Rich, I think) I
didn't how to do it. "No problem, " he said and showed me how to do it. He
was friendly, went step by step, and seemed to instantly pick up on it and
adjust when I didn't understand what he was saying.
"where do you draw the line as to what needs a teacher and what doesn't"
Where do you (yes, *you* Michael/Damon) draw the line of how much peanut
butter to put on your sandwich? Where do you (yeah, you again) draw the
line of what clothes are the right mix of casual and business for a picnic
at your new boss' house? You rely on your years of experience, observation,
conscious and unconscious learning, processing, absorbing, evaluating and
judging. In short, what is commonly called 'common sense'. It would be
ridiculous to try to list all of the possible situations and how I would
apply the 'rule' in each one.
Parents and kids are a special sort of thing. Kids are these empty
sponge-like things that are built to absorb vast amounts of information at
tremendous rates though multiple channels. They learn the 'hidden
curriculum' (as communications majors and developmental psychologists refer
to it) of culture primarily through indirect instruction. Turns out that we
spend our whole lives learning it too, mainly because the sheer quantity of
rapidly evolving information, as well as, its context-specific nature make
it pretty much impossible for anyone to 'teach' it to you.
Anyway, as someone else has mentioned debating this is getting pretty
tedious. I've expressed my POV and how I do things and I've heard what you
guys have to say. I've turned it over in my head and I still like a
separate teaching skill better. That's it as far as I'm concerned. Happy
gaming.
Jason Goode
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin [SMTP:griffin@txdirect.net]
> Sent: Friday, April 17, 1998 10:31 PM
> To: Champions
> Subject: Teaching (was RE: The Average man...)
>
> At 05:25 PM 4/17/98 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote:
> >Without one, characters (PC or NPC) cannot teach other characters (PC or
> >NPC) anything other than the most basic of skills, unless they are
> >professional teachers. This is important in the context of our games,
> since
> >our characters need justification for gaining in abilities. Thus, we
> have
> >Teaching skill.
>
> We *don't* have the Teaching Skill. It doesn't exist in any Hero rules
> edition, supplement or product I'm aware of. You can create it it for
> home
> use if you like, of course, and it is something a non-professional should
> be able to do. However, it may be *so* basic that it should be considered
> an Everyman Skill (only as a FAM, of course). Teaching at its core is
> nothing more than the passing on of knowledge or a skill. Simple
> communication between two people, and the ability on the part of the
> receipient of the information to learn, are all that is required for that.
> I assume you had no professional instructor to teach to how to roleplay?
>
> I don't believe you said that *nothing* could be taught without benefit of
> the Teaching Skill, but I didn't see anything suggesting where you'd draw
> the line. Parents teach their children; do all parents have the Teaching
> Skill, or do all the things parents teach their kids fall under "the most
> basic of skills" as you described it?
>
> What about being self-taught? I can acquire some skills through
> practice,
> with no more instruction than might be found in a textbook or manual.
> Would you automatically classify *any* skill that can be acquired this way
> as "most basic"?
>
> If Teaching is required for complex or especially esoteric Skills, okay.
> I'd like to see some idea of what kinds of things you do (and do not)
> thing
> require this special training on the part of an instructor. Martial Arts
> and Survival, apparently, you put in the former catagory. What else?
>
> Damon
>
> |--------------------------------------------------------------------|
> |****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************|
> |--------------------------------------------------------------------|
> |Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/ |
> | Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines |
> | Worthy Causes -- Computer -- Atlanta -- All Human Knowledge |
> |--------------------------------------------------------------------|
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:08:13 +1000 (EST)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: RE: Examples (Was RE: Politics in the game)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>>
>> I'm working on a Christian Hero/Villian group. I'm going with the
>> currently popular assumption of Gabrial as a semi-rogue angel trying to
>> take the top ArchAngel spot from Michael. She's (yes, she) has come to
>> Earth assuming that all the supernatural/superhuman activity is an
>> abhorrance and is starting a group to try to wipe it out, being an Angel
>> hero for getting rid of the menace. So far I've got Revelation, a MA with
>> a spiritual sword of holy white flame, and Rapture, a female flying EB
>> with holy white flame. I'm trying to think of a third so I can call the
>> team The Trinity, but haven't been able to think of a cool term. Anyone?
>>
>>
>>
>> -Tim Gilberg
>>
>> -"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
>
>
how's about 'the confesor'? it sounds hackneyed at first but actually
ends up being pretty spooky, imhho. A more obvious version is
'the inquisitor' but EE did that.. . .continuing the 'book' trend, how
about genisis, who converts dedicated normals into 'warriors of god'-
i.e. super-agents?
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: The Average man...
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 01:11:34 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Rather ridiculous assumptions for you to draw, but you are entitled.
1) We roll dice (on behalf of the teacher and the student (INT roll)) to
determine a) just how fast the skill can be transmitted and b) just how many
points can be put into it without further instruction. In other words, a
good roll both parts means that the skill will be taught/learned fast and
that the character might be able to acquire it at say, 12- or 13- (assuming
he has the points) rather than 11-.
2) Since this skill and methodology was actually initially suggested and
developed by the players, they apparently don't consider it as " valuable
game session time wasted on something that should probably be handled
"off-line" ".
Jason Goode
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stainless Steel Rat [SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net]
> Sent: Friday, April 17, 1998 11:48 PM
> To: Champions
> Subject: Re: The Average man...
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Goode, Jason writes:
>
> > Last session, actually. One of the PCs is a medical doctor and he is
> > trying to teach one of the other PCs basic and advanced first aid
> > (Paramedic). [...]
>
> Do not take this too badly, please, but this sounds more like roll playing
> than role playing. The dice are more important to what is going on than
> character development.
>
> If a character wants to learn something, the GM decides whether or not the
> would-be instructor can teach it and how long it will take the would-be
> student to learn it. If the character sticks to his studies, he can spend
> the experience at the end of the prescribed period. No dice rolling is
> need, nor is any valuable game session time wasted on something that
> should
> probably be handled "off-line".
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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>
> iQCVAwUBNTgiiJ6VRH7BJMxHAQELIgP/WAB7uAGqKw6tQJZJy0qM58vPFSW+dxz7
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> Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain
> types
> PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
> \
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:17:51 +1000 (EST)
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Art/Craft Skills
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 11:42 PM 4/17/98 -0400, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Michael (Damon) or Peni R Griffin writes:
>
>> Tim Gilberg mentioned the need for Art Skills, similar to Science Skills.
>> I thought Crafts could be lumped in with these.
>
>Remember one very important point. Things that cost points in Hero have
>immediate, practical use within the context of the game at hand. Or at
>least they are supposed to be. If you spend points on it, you should be
>able to get use out of it equivalent to the points spent.
>
>When adding something to the system, you have to ask yourself if that
>something adds something of immediate, practical use. If you do not answer
>with a strong affirmative, you might want to reconsider.
>
*COUGHgamblingCOUGH*
And anyway, who says? that's the way many skills are, but just as many
are 'practically meaningless' or potentially so, especially taking into
account different
settings. And again, they're talking about a 'general' skill catagory, like
KS and SS,
so what's the parameters for jugeing practicality? Does cockroach-ology
really make one a
better superhero? No, but does it make bill the sidekick a more interesting
character? yup!
Smae goes for an 'artistic' skill catagory. The basic function of character
creation is to
define the character, not define the context or the character in the context
at hand. If
that was so i'd have seperate character sheets for 'bill biffing villains'
and 'bill woking
in the lab'. Hmm, maybe some sorta multipower?
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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 22:29:27 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: CLOWN
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Comic relief, not "look like idiots". Though the two are not
> exclusive. I've had fun with them and the Heroes going toe to toe in a
> battle of pranks. It ended with a Basketball Game at the United Center to
> save the Jordan Statue with a kidnapped Mike Ditka as guest referee. BTW,
> CLOWN now has Hunted by Mike Ditka as a disad in my campaign.
Yes, the main limitation with CLOWN is that only a select few GMs can
run it without being trite, humiliating, or insulting. I honestly don't
think that _I_ could pull it off, and I think I have a great sense of
humour. It is quite a challenge to use CLOWN appropriately in a
campaign. If I were to try to use them, I think I would have them as
occasional nuicances in the heroes' lives rather than have them going
head to head. I think the idea of the group playing practical jokes on
the PCs and their City would be less grating than them going into actual
group combat. I.E.; the CLOWNS have their own agenda to - say - deface
all the statues in the park, and the PCs have the role of either
catching them while they try to run away, or set a trap for them.
But like I said, it takes either an all-around agreeable group, or a
gentle touch by the GM to make it work.
--
It slices! It dices!
Look at that tomato!
You can even cut a tin can with it!
But you wouldn't want to! -"Mr. Popeil"
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 01:43:02 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: (L&O) Some Cop Equipment
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<< If so, how does the Concentrate limitation come into play? >>
That's a good question. Here's the answer (well, my answer). ;) While the
device does work on a "Constant" basis if left on, it requires the user to
"Concentrate" in order to use their knowledge and experience to: 1) read the
digital diaply, and more importantly 2) determine which vehicle in the radar's
"field of vision" is actually being detected by the unit.
If the unit is on and the user is doing something else, and only glances up
to see the display ("82 MPH") but there is more than one vehicle out there
traveling on the highway, the user has no real way of knowing which vehicle is
traveling those 82 MPH. Now, if the user takes a moment to assess thge
situation they can determine precisely which vehicle is displaying that
"signature."
Essentially it's just a game mechanic (Limitation) installed to prevent
characters from using it indiscriminately (in the general sense, not the game
rules sense <G>) and while not perfect, it's a more accurate depiction of the
unit's ability than not having the Concentrate limitation, IMO.
Mark @ GRG
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 01:44:36 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: The source of all power?/origins?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<< Well, i'd think a few ppl are a tad leery of another singularity orbiting
the earth's core....that's what, four or five down there now? *j/k* >>
Eh? Where else has this been used?
Mark @ GRG
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 02:16:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Examples (Was RE: Politics in the game)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Goode, Jason wrote:
> Or that guy from 'Pulp Fiction': Pulls out his guns and says: "And I will
> strike upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger, those who attempt
> to poison and destroy my brothers, and you will know My name is the Lord,
> when I lay my vengeance upon thee!" Attacks against him seem to somehow
> miss him and his wallet has "Bad Motherfucker" embroidered on it.
In case you're wondering, the character's name is 'Jules', the actor's
name is Samuel L Jackson, and the passage quoted is Ezekiel 25:17.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 23:26:27 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Politics in the game...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> ...In the past 15 years od so, I've seen incredibly
> bitter, vindictive, and occasionally violent debates on matters ranging
> from abortion, euthenasia, and gay rights to sales tax proposals, term
> limits for elected officials, and even an update of our bottle deposit law.
> (Yes, folks, there were a couple of personal-attack ads along the lines
> of, "Don't let These People shove their ideas down our throat," over the
> issue of paying a refundable five cents for the bottle that Snapple and
> similar drinks come in.)
I remember that campaign; it was the most moronic, pointless waste of
money our initiative system has ever spawned!
> Yes, I do plan to go into this, at least to an extent, in my book, and
> even include a couple of politically-motivated villains on various sides of
> different issues (including a neo-Nazi, and a group of superpowered
> gay-rights radicals that even radical gay-rights groups don't like).
Yes, I don'r know about any other part of the country (or Canada; I
haven'r been there since I was 12), but in the northwest (Oregon, at
least) pretty much EVERYONE has an opinion about their favorite
political issues, and there's always SOMETHING brewing...
But as for GENERAL politics, I would think that any campaign would
tend to take on the direction of the group, or at least the GM, pretty
much regardless of the source material. Aside from specifically
political villians/heroes/gopups, just about any of the collections of
Disads and motivations of any published character can be adapted to any
political view the GM sees fit. Moreover, I think that they probably DO
just that, without even much of a conscious thought.
--
It slices! It dices!
Look at that tomato!
You can even cut a tin can with it!
But you wouldn't want to! -"Mr. Popeil"
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Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 23:36:09 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Examples (Was RE: Politics in the game)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
happyelf wrote:
>
> At 02:16 AM 4/18/98 -0400, you wrote:
> >On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Goode, Jason wrote:
> >
> >> Or that guy from 'Pulp Fiction': Pulls out his guns and says: "And I will
> >> strike upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger, those who attempt
> >> to poison and destroy my brothers, and you will know My name is the Lord,
> >> when I lay my vengeance upon thee!" Attacks against him seem to somehow
> >> miss him and his wallet has "Bad Motherfucker" embroidered on it.
> >
> >
> >In case you're wondering, the character's name is 'Jules', the actor's
> >name is Samuel L Jackson, and the passage quoted is Ezekiel 25:17.
>
> And um. . doesn't he get blown away coming out of the bathroom by bruce willis's
> character? or is that the other guy?
That's the other guy (Travolta's character). He gets it while
reading when he's on the can. Jules survives the movie.
BTW, when I saw Pulp Fiction (in a theatre - a rarity for me), I
think I enjoyed myself WAY too much; I was laughing my @$$ off during
scenes when only my friend who came with me was doing so as well...
--
It slices! It dices!
Look at that tomato!
You can even cut a tin can with it!
But you wouldn't want to! -"Mr. Popeil"
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:13:39 +1000 (EST)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: RE: Examples (Was RE: Politics in the game)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 02:16 AM 4/18/98 -0400, you wrote:
>On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Goode, Jason wrote:
>
>> Or that guy from 'Pulp Fiction': Pulls out his guns and says: "And I will
>> strike upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger, those who attempt
>> to poison and destroy my brothers, and you will know My name is the Lord,
>> when I lay my vengeance upon thee!" Attacks against him seem to somehow
>> miss him and his wallet has "Bad Motherfucker" embroidered on it.
>
>
>In case you're wondering, the character's name is 'Jules', the actor's
>name is Samuel L Jackson, and the passage quoted is Ezekiel 25:17.
And um. . doesn't he get blown away coming out of the bathroom by bruce willis's
character? or is that the other guy?
>
>***************************************************************************
>* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
>* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
>* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
>* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
>* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
>* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
>***************************************************************************
>
>
>
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 03:08:36 -0500
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Examples (Was RE: Politics in the game)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> I'm working on a Christian Hero/Villian group. I'm going with the
> currently popular assumption of Gabrial as a semi-rogue angel trying to
> take the top ArchAngel spot from Michael. She's (yes, she) has come to
> Earth assuming that all the supernatural/superhuman activity is an
> abhorrance and is starting a group to try to wipe it out, being an Angel
> hero for getting rid of the menace. So far I've got Revelation, a MA with
> a spiritual sword of holy white flame, and Rapture, a female flying EB
> with holy white flame. I'm trying to think of a third so I can call the
> team The Trinity, but haven't been able to think of a cool term. Anyone?
Some religion themed names:
Halo
Penance
Armaggedon
Avatar
Prophet
Retribution
Savior
Templar
Saint
Hellfire
Brimstone
Im sure you can come up with your own appropriate powers.
Todd
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:48:51 +1000 (EST)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Examples (Was RE: Politics in the game)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
The same thing happened when i went to Interview with a vampire.
Half the audience was cracking up at the more gory scenes and the
other half was dressed in black, and very unamused with us. .
. . . . hmm, how's THAT for a social scism?
>> And um. . doesn't he get blown away coming out of the bathroom by bruce
willis's
>> character? or is that the other guy?
>
> That's the other guy (Travolta's character). He gets it while
>reading when he's on the can. Jules survives the movie.
> BTW, when I saw Pulp Fiction (in a theatre - a rarity for me), I
>think I enjoyed myself WAY too much; I was laughing my @$$ off during
>scenes when only my friend who came with me was doing so as well...
>
>--
> It slices! It dices!
> Look at that tomato!
> You can even cut a tin can with it!
> But you wouldn't want to! -"Mr. Popeil"
>
>
>
"enslve humanity willya?"
Core Alpha PBEM http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/3306/Pbem.htm
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 05:32:38 -0400
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net>
Subject: Re: Examples (Was RE: Politics in the game)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:08 AM 4/18/98 -0500, Todd Hanson wrote:
>> I'm working on a Christian Hero/Villian group. I'm going with the
>> currently popular assumption of Gabrial as a semi-rogue angel trying to
>> take the top ArchAngel spot from Michael. She's (yes, she) has come to
>> Earth assuming that all the supernatural/superhuman activity is an
>> abhorrance and is starting a group to try to wipe it out, being an Angel
>> hero for getting rid of the menace. So far I've got Revelation, a MA with
>> a spiritual sword of holy white flame, and Rapture, a female flying EB
>> with holy white flame. I'm trying to think of a third so I can call the
>> team The Trinity, but haven't been able to think of a cool term. Anyone?
>
I kinda like Redeemer.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: The Average man...
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 18 Apr 1998 08:45:03 -0400
Lines: 27
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Goode, Jason writes:
> 1) We roll dice (on behalf of the teacher and the student (INT roll)) to
> determine a) just how fast the skill can be transmitted and b) just how
> many points can be put into it without further instruction.
What I wrote was that it seemed to me that the dice roll was more important
than character development. To me, this statement proves it: character
development is a function of rolling dice, not role-playing. Or, at least,
that is the way I see it.
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 11:04:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: Examples (Was RE: Politics in the game)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, happyelf wrote:
> >> Or that guy from 'Pulp Fiction': Pulls out his guns and says: "And I will
> >> strike upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger, those who attempt
> >> to poison and destroy my brothers, and you will know My name is the Lord,
> >> when I lay my vengeance upon thee!" Attacks against him seem to somehow
> >> miss him and his wallet has "Bad Motherfucker" embroidered on it.
> >
> >In case you're wondering, the character's name is 'Jules', the actor's
> >name is Samuel L Jackson, and the passage quoted is Ezekiel 25:17.
>
> And um. . doesn't he get blown away coming out of the bathroom by bruce
> willis's character? or is that the other guy?
That's Vinne Vega, played by John Travolta. Jules survives the movie to,
presumably, "Walk the Earth".
"Whaddya mean 'walk the Earth?'"
"Y'know, like Kane in "Kung Fu"."
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 08:19:31 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Art/Craft Skills
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:17 PM 4/18/1998 +1000, happyelf wrote:
>>Remember one very important point. Things that cost points in Hero have
>>immediate, practical use within the context of the game at hand. Or at
>>least they are supposed to be. If you spend points on it, you should be
>>able to get use out of it equivalent to the points spent.
>>
>>When adding something to the system, you have to ask yourself if that
>>something adds something of immediate, practical use. If you do not answer
>>with a strong affirmative, you might want to reconsider.
>
>*COUGHgamblingCOUGH*
>
>And anyway, who says? that's the way many skills are, but just as many
>are 'practically meaningless' or potentially so, especially taking into
>account different
>settings. And again, they're talking about a 'general' skill catagory, like
>KS and SS,
>so what's the parameters for jugeing practicality? Does cockroach-ology
>really make one a
>better superhero? No, but does it make bill the sidekick a more interesting
>character? yup!
>Smae goes for an 'artistic' skill catagory. The basic function of character
>creation is to
>define the character, not define the context or the character in the context
>at hand. If
>that was so i'd have seperate character sheets for 'bill biffing villains'
>and 'bill woking
>in the lab'. Hmm, maybe some sorta multipower?
Actually Rat has a very sensible point here. How much value would this
give the character is a consideration of about equal importance (IMO) as
how different it is from existing mechanics. Now, I happen to think that
Art/Craft Skills is about equal in value to Science Skills (though for
considerably different reasons), and that they're a type that could benefit
from a Skill Enhancer of its own (as Sciences and Area Knowledges already
do). So I'm all for Art/Craft Skills as a new category of Background
Skills.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 08:21:53 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:28 PM 4/17/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Bob Greenwade writes:
>
>> Why does D's DCV affect A's chance to hit in the proposed Block method,
>> and not in the standard block method?
>
>Because in the proposed block method, A's chance of getting past D's block
>is directly dependant upon how much his attack roll beats the roll he
>needs, which is directly dependant on D's DCV. Watch:
>
>A rolls 11, hitting D's DCV even. D must roll 11- (11 - 0) to block.
>A rolls 10, hitting D's DCV by 1. D must roll 10- (11 - 1) to block.
>A rolls 9, hitting D's DCV by 2. D must roll 9- (11 - 2) to block.
>A rolls 8, hitting D's DCV by 3. D must roll 8- (11 - 3) to block.
I must have missed this. Would the person who made this original
proposal care to comment on this? Did I miss something, or is Rat reading
something into the idea that isn't there? (It sure wouldn't be the first
time in either case....)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 08:49:43 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Ultimate Utility Belt
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:27 PM 4/17/1998 EDT, Leah L Watts wrote:
>Actually, I'd appreciate some help/feedback on a gadget I'm working on.
>
>My very first Champs character was a stunt actress and martial artist who
>got enhanced DEX and SPD from an attack by Deathsinger. Unfortunately,
>the high intensity sonics also slagged her inner ears, leaving her deaf
>(I know this combination wouldn't work in reality, it's comic book
>physiology). Back when I was playing her, we pretty much ignored her
>deafness unless it was important to the story; but I'd like to update her
>as a solo hero, and she'll need some way to find out about crimes. What
>I'd like her to carry is a radio that works like a display pager --
>instead of a speaker or earphone, the messages are displayed on a screen.
>
>Now for the question: what's the best way to model this? A minicomputer
>with radio hearing and Universal Translator (defined as translating sound
>to print), Detect: Radio Signal with suitable modifiers, or just buy a
>regular OAF radio and handwave the display screen? (I don't much like
>the last option, but I'm willing to be persuaded.)
I think the best simple approach would be HRRH with the text display as
a Special Effect (or maybe speech-to-text translation bought as Language in
the same Focus).
A more complex solution, though perhaps more accurate in detail, would
be to buy the thing as a Computer, and give the Computer HRRH plus the
appropriate Languages with Literacy. Then you could have the mechanic of a
difficult passage of speech being mis-translated due to a failed INT Roll
by the Computer....
I think the costs would work out to about the same (give or take a point
or two), and I'd allow either construct in my campaign.
---
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 10:31:43 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Favorite moments
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Chad Riley wrote:
>
> So what are your favorite moments in Champions?
Here is another Oraclese story as told by the GM....
I've only ever run a deathtrap scenario once, but it turned out so well
I thought I had to share it. >evil laugh<
First, a little background info on the trapped character in question.
He's a scientist who had had been doing a little 'recreational
chemistry': he gained his powers as the result of an overdose of an
experimental hallucinogen. This overdose also give him a 'vision' of
being in Hades and having conversations with various Greco-Roman gods.
When he awoke, he found that he was super-strong and could fly. So he
became Oraclese, research scientist and herald of the gods. As you can
probably guess, he's a little loony.
Anyway, Oraclese awoke (after being captured by agents with really big
guns) inside some sort of container, packed in by balloons. He couldn't
move much without the risk of popping a few, but there was enough light
that he could see that there were six different colored ballons: red,
white, clear, pale blue, pale yellow, and black.
He realized after a couple of minutes that his air was running out, so
he started popping ballons. He popped (at random) a clear one and was
greeted by a breath of fresh air. Further movement and experimentation
revealed that the white ones were full of helium (his voice jumped two
full octaves), the yellow ones were full of chlorine (which was bad,
because he takes double damage from chemical attacks), and the red ones
were filled with some gas that floated but didn't seem to effect him
otherwise.
He managed to get to the outer edge of his container and found that he
was in a glass cylinder. There was a wire attached from the top of his
cylinder to the ceiling many meters above, and the ceiling was covered
with pipework of some kind.
Anyway, it was at about this time that he popped a blue ballon, which
gave him a face full of nitrous oxide, which set off a flashback.
(Aren't disads great fun?) He thrashed about for a bit and broke
several ballons, including (just as he came out of the trip) a black
one. He detected a scent of almonds (which meant cyanide gas) and
deduced that he had to get out of that jar fast. [Important thing to
note here: he's now figured out what's in all the balloons except the
red ones.] So he broke the glass. This is roughly the conversation
that followed when he did it:
"Three things happen when you break the glass. First, the glass
shattters, which pops most of the rest of the ballons."
"Oh well, I can't do anything about that."
"Second, the wire from the top of your jar goes slack, and the pipes
above you start putting out flame."
"Okay..."
"Third, several panels in the floor open, releasing hundreds of red
balloons that begin to float toward the flames above."
The look of realization that crept across his face was just classic:
"Hydrogen...SH*T!"
--
[There was a happy ending, though. Oraclese used all his formidable
speed and strength and did a full move-through on the ceiling. He got
through the pipework and through the masonry--barely--and found himself
in a hallway. Then the big boom went off and he got knocked several
dozen meters down said hallway. The blast knocked him silly. Or
sillier, depending on who you ask.]
--
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages,
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and
goes through their pockets. -- Eddy Peters
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 09:50:38 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Automatons
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I have a general question about Automatons, and wanted to get everyones
OPINION on the subject, since people are very free with such, even if
somewhat sarcastic hehehe
Do you all use the double cost for defenses rule? I havent enforced it in
my game ever, and it doesnt seem to cause any problems. Granted its awfully
hard to drop an automaton built with the full bunch of powers, but its so
expensive to do that it seems they are easy enough to handle with other powers.
I guess it comes down to the 100% damage reduction argument, just because
you cant knock them out doesnt mean you cant keep them out of the fight...
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Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 10:10:21 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Sweep variant
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I have thought of a sweep variant for heroic games, but havent playtested it
enough to see what the significance of it would be. Any thoughts?
May be used with any standard strike. With Hand to Hand weapons, a sweep
can be used to attack a single target more than once. If this is used, the
attacks take the standard cumulative -2 OCV, but also each attack causes the
attack to be made at -5 STR, as each blow is weakened by the sweep.
Certain ranged weapons, especially automatic weapons, can be used with this
sweep maneuver as well, with the same strength subtraction. This may make a
weapon too heavy or to have too much recoil to use properly, adding some
extra limitations.
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 12:18:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: The Average man...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> > It may not be for you, but it is for me.
>
> When was the last time you had a PC make a "Teaching" skill roll during a
> gaming session?
Hmmm. It's been awhile. However, it's also been a long while
since I've had a PC use Sanskrit (a language Skill provided in the book),
SS: Astronomy (also in the book), Animal Handling, Weaponsmith, or even
Computer Programming. (The last since I made Computer Ops a new skill.)
That doesn't make them less valid or, in the proper circumstances,
less valuable. A Teaching skill shouldn't be necessary for learning to
occur. Anybody can emulate a textbook and spew forth facts. Someone with
Teacher would achieve time bonuses and bonuses to the Students' PRE or INT
rolls to learn the various things taught. Great for teaching the
townspeople how to fight off the band of cruel marauders. Great for
quickly giving Mental Girl enough pointers on Karate to quickly pretend to
be a MA. Maybe look at the skill (NEW IDEA, PAY ATTENTION) as craming,
UBO for the short term, with whatever longterm significance.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 12:25:40 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: The source of all power?/origins?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Note that the collective will of humanity would have an effect on this as
> well. The Reniassance and 'Age of Reason' would have wiped out all
> 'supernatural' creatures like trolls and dragons because people in general
> stopped believing in them. Most of the powerful modern faiths would
> contribute to this, as Christianity, Islam and Bhuddism are generally low on
> the miracle expectation scale.
This is quite similar to the Worldview expressed in White Wolf's
Changeling, a product I've been planning on (but never getting started on)
adapting material from for Champs.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:27:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Automatons
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Christopher Taylor wrote:
> Do you all use the double cost for defenses rule? I havent enforced it in
> my game ever, and it doesnt seem to cause any problems. Granted its awfully
> hard to drop an automaton built with the full bunch of powers, but its so
> expensive to do that it seems they are easy enough to handle with other powers.
Yes, but I wasn't worrying about the point totals, I was more concerned
with the actual value of the character's DEF.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 12:29:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Teaching (was RE: The Average man...)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> be able to do. However, it may be *so* basic that it should be considered
> an Everyman Skill (only as a FAM, of course). Teaching at its core is
> nothing more than the passing on of knowledge or a skill. Simple
> communication between two people, and the ability on the part of the
> receipient of the information to learn, are all that is required for that.
> I assume you had no professional instructor to teach to how to roleplay?
Hmmm. possibly an Everyman Familiarity, maybe.
> I don't believe you said that *nothing* could be taught without benefit of
> the Teaching Skill, but I didn't see anything suggesting where you'd draw
> the line. Parents teach their children; do all parents have the Teaching
> Skill, or do all the things parents teach their kids fall under "the most
> basic of skills" as you described it?
I definately disagreed, here. All the Teaching skill could do is
make this aquiration of knowledge faster than a self-taught skill or
simple spouting of information -- the "textbook emulator" aproach. Like I
suggested just a little bit ago, look at it as having a short term
Craming, UBO sort of application.
> If Teaching is required for complex or especially esoteric Skills, okay.
> I'd like to see some idea of what kinds of things you do (and do not) thing
> require this special training on the part of an instructor. Martial Arts
> and Survival, apparently, you put in the former catagory. What else?
I'd put nothing in this category, actually. Many have self taught
themselves these sorts of things. A teacher may make things closer to a
normal appliacation or make the learning faster.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:30:25 -0400
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net>
Subject: Re: Babylon 5
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:43 PM 4/17/98 -0500, Marc Seebass wrote:
>
>>Well, I have it, but since it looks like I'm not going to be playing any
>>time soon, I haven't read it. I heard plenty of good reviews on the B5 RPG
>>list and even the B5W list. I, too, think a Psi-Cop campaign would be
>cool.
>>I scanned the book for references to military teeps, but I didn't find
>>anything.
It's been stated a couple of times PsiCorp doesn't allow teeps to be in the
military or used for military purposes. Nothing to say the military could
not have a black project though.
The B5 RPG is pretty informative. Alot has to be converted, and just what
the Psi ratings mean is a matter that will need some definition. Not so
much the obvious (The higher you are the more powerful) but some things are
restricted to high ratings (Only someone at P12 level can kill someone by
frying their mind).
Still, I think I'd rather do a Psicop campaign than the one in the Babylon
Project RPG. I just can't get my brain wrapped around their setting. The
other option I can see is doing is a campaign on the B5 station. With
250,000+ humans and aliens, alot goes on on the station that could have
nothing to do with what is shown on the TV show. The only possible problem
I see with this is how well the players would know the TV show and how much
that could carry over to InCharacter. But in that type of game PC's could
be station personell or others living on the station. It would also allow
them to be aliens, though it will be tricky translating from the RPG. The
Psicop campaign would be alot more structured.
>>
>>Jason Goode
>Personally, I was working on a Teenagers From Outer Space game, called
>Babylon High. It never worked out.
Which is a big contrast here. Part of the reason I'm thinking on doing
Babylon 5 is to do a serious game since I'm tired of comedy.:)
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:33:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Sweep variant
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Christopher Taylor wrote:
> I have thought of a sweep variant for heroic games, but havent playtested it
> enough to see what the significance of it would be. Any thoughts?
>
> May be used with any standard strike. With Hand to Hand weapons, a sweep
> can be used to attack a single target more than once. If this is used, the
> attacks take the standard cumulative -2 OCV, but also each attack causes the
> attack to be made at -5 STR, as each blow is weakened by the sweep.
Doesn't sound like that bad an idea, or unbalancing. I'd suggest having
the -5 STR affect STR min too, meaning some weapons (like greatswords and
ploearms) might be too heavy to Sweep at all. In one gmae I was in, we
were using a Sweep varient that allowed one to Sweep a single target with
two different Martial Arts Maneuvers (example a Legsweep/Kick). This idea
came about after watching Michelle Khan (Yeoh) do a simultanous
Disarm/Kick on some guy in "Supercop" (she kicked the gun free on with
one leg, and then kicked the guy in the face with the other leg).
> Certain ranged weapons, especially automatic weapons, can be used with this
> sweep maneuver as well, with the same strength subtraction. This may make a
> weapon too heavy or to have too much recoil to use properly, adding some
> extra limitations.
This sounds like the "Rapid Fire" maneuver from "Danger International" and
"Eye for an Eye". I4NI also has several other autofire maneuvers (bought
as 5 point skills) that let one due cinematic gun tricks. These might
work better.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 12:36:04 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Art/Craft Skills
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> > Tim Gilberg mentioned the need for Art Skills, similar to Science Skills.
> > I thought Crafts could be lumped in with these.
>
> Remember one very important point. Things that cost points in Hero have
> immediate, practical use within the context of the game at hand. Or at
> least they are supposed to be. If you spend points on it, you should be
> able to get use out of it equivalent to the points spent.
>
> When adding something to the system, you have to ask yourself if that
> something adds something of immediate, practical use. If you do not answer
> with a strong affirmative, you might want to reconsider.
Rat, most Science Skills don't have an immediate, practical use.
Many Knowledge skills and languages are the same way. Heck, many PSs
don't have an immediate, practical use.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 12:48:39 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: CLOWN
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> group combat. I.E.; the CLOWNS have their own agenda to - say - deface
> all the statues in the park, and the PCs have the role of either
> catching them while they try to run away, or set a trap for them.
> But like I said, it takes either an all-around agreeable group, or a
> gentle touch by the GM to make it work.
Definately. Though when I mentioned this conversation, my
girlfriend groaned. TeeHee happened to win their little face off.
(Intelligent Car vs Power Armor Character -- you can't lose!)
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 12:50:38 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Examples (Was RE: Politics in the game)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> I kinda like Redeemer.
Ooooh. I like! I'm trying to get a feel similar to Revelation
and Rapture, and this is pretty close. Things that seem more earthly,
like Reverend and The Saint, seem not to fit as well.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 12:52:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: The Average man...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> > 1) We roll dice (on behalf of the teacher and the student (INT roll)) to
> > determine a) just how fast the skill can be transmitted and b) just how
> > many points can be put into it without further instruction.
>
> What I wrote was that it seemed to me that the dice roll was more important
> than character development. To me, this statement proves it: character
> development is a function of rolling dice, not role-playing. Or, at least,
> that is the way I see it.
Say what! We deal with a set of game mechanics here, Rat. While
this is roleplayed out, somewhat, the idea of how much how quickly is
quite important for the purchase of any new skill.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:13:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: hero-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Art/Craft Skills
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Tim Gilberg mentioned the need for Art Skills, similar to Science Skills.
> I thought Crafts could be lumped in with these. Most crafts (netmaking,
> weaving, pottery, brewing) are more likely to be of practical day-to-day
> use than most arts (singing, painting, sculpting), if only in Fantasy Hero
> or a Lands of Mystery setting.
Well, I was considering the crafts to be an automatic inclusion,
actually. Art Skills or Artistic Skills work well as the term, though.
> Were you planning to share your thoughts on Art Skills with us, Tim? It
> was your idea.
What's to say? Look at Science Skills as a guideline.
These would cover artistic creations, plain and simple. Anything
anyone wants in this vein. Things like: Poetry, Painting, Photography,
Cooking, Singing, Composing, Set Design, Basketweaving, Knitting, etc.
The skills would cost 2pts for an 11- roll, and 1 point for each
+! to the roll.
They could easily come with a Skill Enhancer: Artistic for 3
points.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:29:21 -0400
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Art/Craft Skills
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 08:19 AM 4/18/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Actually Rat has a very sensible point here. How much value would this
>give the character is a consideration of about equal importance (IMO) as
>how different it is from existing mechanics. Now, I happen to think that
>Art/Craft Skills is about equal in value to Science Skills (though for
>considerably different reasons), and that they're a type that could benefit
>from a Skill Enhancer of its own (as Sciences and Area Knowledges already
>do). So I'm all for Art/Craft Skills as a new category of Background
>Skills.
While I agree these skills could benefit from a Skill Enhancer (I think Tim
suggested: Artistic), these skills are different than other Sci, AK, Lang,
and PS skills: they do not impart knowledge so much as they allow creation.
A section in the skills list would have to be added to describe the
difference between KS: Guitars, Art: Guitar Playing, and PS:
Guitarist/Musician. The first one would allow you to tell the difference
between a Fender and a Gibson, the second would allow you to perform with a
guitar in an artistic manner, and the third would tell you have to get a
chance to perform.
Also, should Artist skills should be based on INT, DEX, or PRE? You need
all three to use them. Or should they just be 2/1 skills?
Joe
P.S. Any chance this could get into 5th Ed?
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:27:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Art/Craft Skills
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> While I agree these skills could benefit from a Skill Enhancer (I think Tim
> suggested: Artistic), these skills are different than other Sci, AK, Lang,
> and PS skills: they do not impart knowledge so much as they allow creation.
Well, the problem you bring up is the same for a SS. What
different things are imparted by PS: Geologist and SS: Geology. I'd be
willing to say that certain professions can get along fine with a SS
without at PS.
> A section in the skills list would have to be added to describe the
> difference between KS: Guitars, Art: Guitar Playing, and PS:
> Guitarist/Musician. The first one would allow you to tell the difference
> between a Fender and a Gibson, the second would allow you to perform with a
> guitar in an artistic manner, and the third would tell you have to get a
> chance to perform.
Correct on the first, though you'd also get history of the
instrument and its great players. The Art: Musician (Guitar) would be
used for any and all actual playing however. The PS would be all the
other things of dealing with being a performer -- getting gigs, putting
together a set, etc. Heck, I'd be willing to let the PS slide as
unimportant if the Art is taken.
> Also, should Artist skills should be based on INT, DEX, or PRE? You need
> all three to use them. Or should they just be 2/1 skills?
Keep it at the 2/1. Because all of the skills go into it, having
any one to base it one wouldn't feel right.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: Babylon 5
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:47:30 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Actually, as I recall it, there are military teeps. Or at least were. I do
recall Bester saying something about not liking it, about the nature of
their assignments and hat the Psicorps still has ultimate control. I
recall that his problem was that teeps are superior to normal humans and
that they are to rare and valuable a commodity to waste on the front lines.
Of course, that might have in one of the novels....
Jason Goode
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TokyoMark [SMTP:bastet@iquest.net]
> Sent: Saturday, April 18, 1998 1:30 PM
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: Babylon 5
>
>
> It's been stated a couple of times PsiCorp doesn't allow teeps to be in
> the
> military or used for military purposes. Nothing to say the military could
> not have a black project though.
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: The Average man...
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:32:55 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
{sigh} Lord, help me give sight to those who "see" about as well as my blind
grandmother...<lol>
The dice introduce a bit of randomness and surprise into what would be an
otherwise dictatorial, heavy-handed, arbitrary and, might I add, incredibly
boring way of doing it. "Okay, Bob, I have decided that since you have an
INT of 12 and Mike has an INT of 10 and a PRE of 15, that it will take Mike
3 game sessions to teach you first aid." "But what about..?" "I have
decided! So let it be done!"
That is what your argument sounds like to me. Your argument is very much in
the vein of "All praise the rulebook, its holy words are law and all
deviations are unholy sin." With that in mind let me throw you two quotes
from the almighty rulebook:
"This is not an exhaustive list. Feel free to take Skills not on the list."
-pg. 19, Champions Deluxe Hardbound
"In short, when using these rules: Do what you what. They are the best we
could devise, but the might not work in a particular situation. If not,
don't hesitate to change them, or use them in any way you desire."
-pg. 7, Champions Deluxe Hardbound
Now, I shall quote myself from a previous message:
"Anyway, as someone else has mentioned debating this is getting pretty
tedious. I've expressed my POV and how I do things and I've heard what you
guys have to say. I've turned it over in my head and I still like a
separate teaching skill better. That's it as far as I'm concerned. Happy
gaming."
Jason Goode
-----Original Message-----
From: Stainless Steel Rat [SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net]
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 1998 8:45 AM
To: Champions
Subject: Re: The Average man...
What I wrote was that it seemed to me that the dice roll was more important
than character development. To me, this statement proves it: character
development is a function of rolling dice, not role-playing. Or, at least,
that is the way I see it.
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:51:06 -0400
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: The Benefits (?) of Dice (was: The Average Man)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<x-rich>>The dice introduce a bit of randomness and surprise into what would be an
>otherwise dictatorial, heavy-handed, arbitrary and, might I add, incredibly
>boring way of doing it. "Okay, Bob, I have decided that since you have an
>INT of 12 and Mike has an INT of 10 and a PRE of 15, that it will take Mike
>3 game sessions to teach you first aid." "But what about..?" "I have
>decided! So let it be done!"
Dice are tools. No more, no less. If you find that randomness increases your enjoyment, go for it. Many don't. I view the dice as a speedbump, slowing me down on my way to the story. There are many games that are completely diceless.
What the above sounds like to me is a GM who realizes that trifling details can be glossed over with a fair decision and that the story will move far more quickly and he and his players can concentrate on the fun. Try it. Save your dice for situations that really call for randomness (I don't know any of those, personally, but I suspect that many people would cry "combat!" as a good answer.)
Scott
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
She loves me all that she can,
And her ways to my ways resign;
But she was not made for any man,
And she never will be all mine.
<bold>Edna St. Vincent Millay</bold>, <italic>Witch-Wife</italic>,
1917
<bold>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
</bold>Scott C. Nolan
nolan@erols.com
</x-rich>
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:33:56 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Art/Craft Skills
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 06:55 PM 4/18/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
>Cc: hero-l@sysabend.org
>Subject: Re: Art/Craft Skills
>
>> Were you planning to share your thoughts on Art Skills with us, Tim? It
>> was your idea.
>
> What's to say? Look at Science Skills as a guideline.
>
> These would cover artistic creations, plain and simple. Anything
>anyone wants in this vein. Things like: Poetry, Painting, Photography,
>Cooking, Singing, Composing, Set Design, Basketweaving, Knitting, etc.
>
> The skills would cost 2pts for an 11- roll, and 1 point for each
>+! to the roll.
>
> They could easily come with a Skill Enhancer: Artistic for 3
>points.
I'd recommend allowing the usual Characteristic-based option allowed for
most Background Skills. What Characteristic was involved would depend on
the specific art and how it was practiced; a painter or craftsman would
probably be DEX-based, a musician INT-based, an actor EGO- or PRE-based,
and a model COM-based.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:36:07 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Art/Craft Skills
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:29 PM 4/18/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>At 08:19 AM 4/18/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> Actually Rat has a very sensible point here. How much value would this
>>give the character is a consideration of about equal importance (IMO) as
>>how different it is from existing mechanics. Now, I happen to think that
>>Art/Craft Skills is about equal in value to Science Skills (though for
>>considerably different reasons), and that they're a type that could benefit
>>from a Skill Enhancer of its own (as Sciences and Area Knowledges already
>>do). So I'm all for Art/Craft Skills as a new category of Background
>>Skills.
>
>While I agree these skills could benefit from a Skill Enhancer (I think Tim
>suggested: Artistic), these skills are different than other Sci, AK, Lang,
>and PS skills: they do not impart knowledge so much as they allow creation.
> A section in the skills list would have to be added to describe the
>difference between KS: Guitars, Art: Guitar Playing, and PS:
>Guitarist/Musician. The first one would allow you to tell the difference
>between a Fender and a Gibson, the second would allow you to perform with a
>guitar in an artistic manner, and the third would tell you have to get a
>chance to perform.
>
>Also, should Artist skills should be based on INT, DEX, or PRE? You need
>all three to use them. Or should they just be 2/1 skills?
While Tim's saying that they should be just 2/1 Skills, I'd say that
there should be an option to make them Characteristic based (like
Professional Skills) based on how they're practiced.
>P.S. Any chance this could get into 5th Ed?
Probably not, but one can hope.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:16:16 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: How do I...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
John P Weatherman wrote:
>
> Howdy Listers,
>
> I have a couple concepts I'm stumbling over and wondered how
> you all would build them.
Since your inaccurate assumptions have been pointed out by others, I
present my campaign definition of a Taser. This may be a bit complex for
some tastes, but it describes my understanding of the weapon fairly well.
15 4D6 EB STUN-only AF%(+1/2) Cont(+1) Uncont*(+1/2) [60]
OAF Fragile(-1 1/4) 1 charge:1 min*,rec(-1/2)
Projectile@(-1) 2" Range(-1/4) 60 charges$(-0)
4 4D6 Suppress CON [20 active]
Linked(-1/2) Limitations as above(-3 1/2)
--
19 Total Cost
% = gradual effect/phase: max 1/segment.
* = until switched off at control box or wires cut or pulled
@ = stopped by heavy clothing and similar SFX for
Armor or Life Support.
$ = SFX battery: second set of charges is 2 steps down on table,
and can never be an advantage.
The second set of charges represents the fact that there is a limited
power supply, and one charge is used each time it does damage. Unless
stopped, the Uncontrolled power simply continues until the battery is
dead, even if the user is KO'ed.
The Autofire with gradual effect, together with Persistent, means that,
with a reasonably good hit and a reasonable SPD, the Taser will do damage
every segment. Since this prevents recoveries but reduces the chance of
KO'ing in the first phase, I regard this as -0 SFX. For example, if a
SPD 5 character hits 3x, the Taser does damage every segment (3x5>12).
If a SPD 3 character hits 2x, the Taser does damage as SPD 6 (2x3=6). A
wimpy number of hits means the barbs are not making good contact.
The Suppress CON represents the fact that continuing contact reduces the
target's resistance to stunning. Since Suppress is already continuous,
there is no need to buy Continuous or Uncontrolled. The Suppress only
affects damage *after* the initial shock, per the discussion in Linked,
but absent an advantage, "STUN vs reduced CON", 'twill have to do.
The EB averages 14 STUN. To stun someone requires exceeding ED+CON. For
a normal, this is 3+10=13, so an average hit just stuns a normal. For an
agent, this might be 7+14 = 21, so the first hit will only hurt a little.
The second and subsequent hits are at ave CON-7, so a normal will be
stunned by 7 or so, and an agent by 15 or so.
>
> The second concept is, can anyone come up with a structure that
> allows for recovery every phase whether the character is acting
> or not. SPX would be a non-intelligent symbiot that is
> "rebuilding" a host constantly. Basically it feeds energy back
> into the host organism. My basic leaning would be:
> c) REC with say Continuous Uncontrolled advantages or some such.
> Honestly, some modifier to REC seems the cleanest, but I really
> am at a loss at to exactly what.
A huge REC with a Limitation is what you want, not a small REC with an
advantage. Assume a character SPD 4, who wants to recover 6/phase.
36 24 REC [48 active] Gradual Effect turn(-1/4) Post-12 Only(-1/4)
The Gradual Effect is from Hero Almanac#1, and allows a given amount of a
power to take effect gradually over a following interval of time. The
effect of this is that, on Segment 12, the character does not benefit
from the extra REC, nor does he benefit at post-12. Instead, the
recovery from each post-12 is portioned out over his four phases. It
could even be portioned out over 12 segments at 2/segment! The "Post-12
Only" prevents the additional recovery from coming into play if the
character *does* take a recovery or is KO'ed.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:24:47 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Art/Craft Skills
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
So far, everything seems very straightforward and as expected; 2/1 default
cost, but with a 3/2 option if you make the Art characteristic based. At
the moment I can only think of one question to ask about Arts that I
wouldn't have asked about a KS or SS.
Since the distinction between 'amateur' and 'professional' is often more a
matter of status than ability, would you allow a character to start with
Art: Musician (Guitar) and later 'roll it over' into PS: Musician
(exchanging the Art for the PS for no extra cost) or would you require him
to spend the extra 2 pts to buy the PS and have both?
I'll back off this query quickly if it looks like it might start another
discussion on the relative values of PS versus non-PS Skills, but it seemed
that Art and PS are a bit more closely related than KS and PS (or in many
cases, even SS and PS), so for some arts/professions the line may be pretty
fine, coming down to whether or not you actually do that thing for a living.
Damon
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Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 19:43:24 +1000
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com&> champ-l@omg.org
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Power Defense
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:36 AM 3/20/1998 -0500, BILL SVITAVSKY wrote:
>>But Power Defense covers, in my opinion, an even broader range of
>>SFX than the other defenses. The SFX of attacks affecting Power
>>Defense regularly include diseases, time manipulation, pseudo-
>>scientific energy transfers, drugs, impairing physical circumstances,
>>and magical transformations - it's tough to come up with a
>>plausible common defense for those attacks. In my experience,
>>unlimited Power Defense is most often bought by power gamers
>>looking for a strategic advantage, not role-players building
>>appropriate abilities for their characters.
>>
>>What SFX, other than a vague "Magical Protection", do you think
>>would justify Power Defense without limitations?
>
Well incredibly high tech alien technology could.
So could an incredibly disciplined Mentalist.
My character has it as a result of a highly adaptable physiology (which is
being discovered slowly by the character)
****************************************************************************
The Politician's Slogan
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.'
****************************************************************************
Mad Hamish
Hamish Laws
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au
h_laws@tassie.net.au
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Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 05:45:03 -0500 (CDT)
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From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Web site update...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Hey... the Herozine web site has been updated again!!!
Go check it out!!!
Michael
Rising Force Publications
Herozine, The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist our recently updated web site...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm
"You have never lived until you have almost died.
And for those who fight for it,
life has a flavor the protected never know"
- anonymous
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Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 05:18:20 -0700
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 11:25 AM 4/19/1998 -0700, Rick Holding wrote:
>Bob Greenwade wrote:
>> At 09:28 PM 4/17/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>> >Bob Greenwade writes:
>> >
>> >> Why does D's DCV affect A's chance to hit in the proposed Block
method,
>> >> and not in the standard block method?
>> >
>> >Because in the proposed block method, A's chance of getting past D's block
>> >is directly dependant upon how much his attack roll beats the roll he
>> >needs, which is directly dependant on D's DCV. Watch:
>> >
>> >A rolls 11, hitting D's DCV even. D must roll 11- (11 - 0) to block.
>> >A rolls 10, hitting D's DCV by 1. D must roll 10- (11 - 1) to block.
>> >A rolls 9, hitting D's DCV by 2. D must roll 9- (11 - 2) to block.
>> >A rolls 8, hitting D's DCV by 3. D must roll 8- (11 - 3) to block.
>>
>> I must have missed this. Would the person who made this original
>> proposal care to comment on this? Did I miss something, or is Rat reading
>> something into the idea that isn't there? (It sure wouldn't be the first
>> time in either case....)
>
> Nope, what Rat is saying is correct. The better the roll of A, the
>harder for D to block the attack. Now I will admit this probarly makes
Block
>less effective between two clones than Dodge (although I would still argue
that
>not as much as some may think).
>
> But consider the case if A has CV of 9 and D has a CV of 5.
>Standard methods: Dodge - A needs 12- to hit D, about 6 times in 10
> Block - A needs 15- to hit D, while D needs 7- to block. A
> hits 95% of the time, while being blocked 20-25%.
> Modified Block. A still hits 15- but D's block goes from
> below 3- to up to 11- depending on what a rolled.
>
> The above sort of example actually happened to me very recently. I was
>playing an old fart (dex 12, cv 4, 2 h-h skill levels) and I had just seen
this
>combat monster chop the young knight down in one blow and I was next. (He
had a
>higher speed than me as well, damn it!). Dodging would not have helped at
all
>to keep me alive, so I threw out a couple of blocks and stayed alive (more
by
>luck than anything else [he was rolling relatively badly]) long enough for
help
>to come.
>
> The other conditional as to do you try to block or dodge is where are
>your skill levels? If they are on OCV, and they are large enough to make a
>difference, you would be better to abort to a block. If they are on DCV,
then
>abort to a dodge.
>
> We have played this method for many years and have found that it does
>not detract from the useage of blocks. We still answer the question based
on
>what is the best option based on relative OCV's and DCV's at the time.
Hm. Well, if it doesn't dramatically screw up the dynamic of your game,
then I say go for it. As far as general consumption goes, though, I think
I'd have to side with Rat on this particular aspect of the rule.
---
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Power Question: Gas Cloud
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Rick Holding writes:
> Fair enough. Are these FAQ's going to be in the 5th edition and
I have no idea... you see, the FAQ is mostly a list of official and semi-
official clarifications to the fourth edition. What as I do not know
exactly what will be in the fifth edition, I cannot say.
> where are they at the moment?
<URL:http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox/champions.html>
<URL:ftp://ftp.ccs.neu.edu/pub/people/ratinox/champions.faq>
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Art/Craft Skills
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Date: 19 Apr 1998 08:41:58 -0400
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Tim R Gilberg writes:
> Rat, most Science Skills don't have an immediate, practical use.
> Many Knowledge skills and languages are the same way. Heck, many PSs
> don't have an immediate, practical use.
The rule of thumb is, you pay for things you use frequently. A character
can pick up a thug's gun, or borrow a friend's radio, and use those things
for a session without paying character points for them. If he wants to
make them a permanant part of his character, frequently used, then he must
spend points for them.
Why should skills be treated any differently? A scientist character should
not have to spend points on sciences unless those skills are being used
during the game.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: The Average man...
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Tim R Gilberg writes:
> Say what! We deal with a set of game mechanics here, Rat.
Show me a mechanic in any Hero product that bases how many character points
a character can spend, and when, on rolled dice.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: The Average man...
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Goode, Jason writes:
> The dice introduce a bit of randomness and surprise into what would be an
> otherwise dictatorial, heavy-handed, arbitrary and, might I add,
> incredibly boring way of doing it.
Not to mention unfair because it is inconsistant. "It took Charlie 2 weeks
to learn Paramedics! Why do I have to take 3 months to learn it!"
> Okay, Bob, I have decided that since you have an INT of 12 and Mike has
> an INT of 10 and a PRE of 15, that it will take Mike 3 game sessions to
> teach you first aid." "But what about..?" "I have decided! So let it
> be done!"
Well, no. You, the GM, inform anyone that asks that it requires, say, 1
week of intensive training for each, say, 1-3 experience points spent on
learning a new skill. Then use that from the beginning of your campaign to
the end, and let the players decide just how much experience they want to
spend. It is less draconian than you seem to think.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge
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Rick Holding writes:
> Nope, what Rat is saying is correct. The better the roll of A, the
> harder for D to block the attack. Now I will admit this probarly makes
> Block less effective between two clones than Dodge (although I would
> still argue that not as much as some may think).
As it stands now, if the defender's blocking OCV is equal to or greater
than the attacker's striking OCV, block is statistically superior to dodge.
Between clones, the difference is miniscule, but block still manages to be
better than dodge.
With the proposed method of blocking, block maneuvers will never (or almost
never; I really do not want to do that much math on this one) be superior
to dodge maneuvers, regardless of how high the blocking OCV might be.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Sweep variant
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Christopher Taylor writes:
> May be used with any standard strike. With Hand to Hand weapons, a sweep
> can be used to attack a single target more than once.
My knee-jerk reaction is to say, if you want to attack more frequently in a
Turn, buy more Speed.
My second thought is to consider applying the OCV and Strength penalties to
the first attack as well. This maneuver modifier clearly has the intent of
putting speed over power.
My third is that I think I would not want to see this on ranged attacks.
Sure, a normal human being can repeatedly squeeze the trigger of a handgun
quickly, running through an 8-round magazine in about two seconds. I did
it on a shooting range just to see how quickly I could do it. This is
something quite appart from *HITTING* what he wants to hit. For this kind
of thing you really want to use a stray shots rule to see what does get
hit.
For those who care, of the 8 rounds, one hit within the outline; that was
my first shot. Two of the remaining 7 clipped the target. The rest hit
the backstop with velocities unmodified by the paper target. :)
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To: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Ultimate Utility Belt
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 09:55:41 EDT
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> A more complex solution, though perhaps more accurate in detail,
would
>be to buy the thing as a Computer, and give the Computer HRRH plus the
>appropriate Languages with Literacy. Then you could have the mechanic
of a
>difficult passage of speech being mis-translated due to a failed INT
Roll
>by the Computer....
That was one problem with using Universal Translator -- AFAIK, speech
recognition software isn't perfect, but with UT there's no chance of a
glitch. Good idea!
Leah
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Subject: Re: Ultimate Utility Belt
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 09:55:41 EDT
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>>Now for the question: what's the best way to model this? A
minicomputer
>>with radio hearing and Universal Translator (defined as translating
sound
>>to print), Detect: Radio Signal with suitable modifiers, or just buy a
>>regular OAF radio and handwave the display screen? (I don't much like
>>the last option, but I'm willing to be persuaded.)
>
>A non-hearing impaired follower who signs? or does your character read
>lips? If the gadget angle is important to the character concept, give
her
>a visored helmet and let the follower type messages on his laptop which
are
>transmitted via wireless modem to a heads-up display inside the helmet.
She's been deaf long enough to know both sign and lip reading. A
follower/translator would work, but would also be incredibly vulnerable
in a super-fight. (Anyone else see the Bat-Duck episode of Tiny Toons?
"Decoy, the Pig Hostage"?) However, a follower who sits at base and
transmits messages to her would fit the character's personality, and
she's got a DNPC who needs fleshing out, hmm....
Leah
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org&>
"Christopher Taylor" <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 98 14:37:46
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Sweep variant
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sat, 18 Apr 1998 10:10:21 -0700, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>I have thought of a sweep variant for heroic games, but havent playtested it
>enough to see what the significance of it would be. Any thoughts?
>
>May be used with any standard strike. With Hand to Hand weapons, a sweep
>can be used to attack a single target more than once. If this is used, the
>attacks take the standard cumulative -2 OCV, but also each attack causes the
>attack to be made at -5 STR, as each blow is weakened by the sweep.
Not suitable for Heroic games as it would mean that the Sweep manoeuver
was all but impossible.
A cumulative -2 OCV is a big enough penalty.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 08:25:59 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Sweep variant
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:09 AM 4/19/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Christopher Taylor writes:
>
>> May be used with any standard strike. With Hand to Hand weapons, a sweep
>> can be used to attack a single target more than once.
>
>My knee-jerk reaction is to say, if you want to attack more frequently in a
>Turn, buy more Speed.
Or autofire, depending on the desired dynamic, SFX, etc.
>My second thought is to consider applying the OCV and Strength penalties to
>the first attack as well. This maneuver modifier clearly has the intent of
>putting speed over power.
Sounds sensible.
>My third is that I think I would not want to see this on ranged attacks.
>Sure, a normal human being can repeatedly squeeze the trigger of a handgun
>quickly, running through an 8-round magazine in about two seconds. I did
>it on a shooting range just to see how quickly I could do it. This is
>something quite appart from *HITTING* what he wants to hit. For this kind
>of thing you really want to use a stray shots rule to see what does get
>hit.
I tend to agree. There are other maneuvers in one of the DC books --
"Blazing Away," I think it's called -- that can be used to simulate this.
I think the one I've cited here allows a shot per Segment, at 0 OCV (though
someone else could probably find it more quickly than I could and give an
accurate description).
>For those who care, of the 8 rounds, one hit within the outline; that was
>my first shot. Two of the remaining 7 clipped the target. The rest hit
>the backstop with velocities unmodified by the paper target. :)
Sounds like what I remember "Blazing Away" being described as.
---
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Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 08:47:50 -0700
To: Stainless Steel Rat <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Sweep variant
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>> May be used with any standard strike. With Hand to Hand weapons, a sweep
>> can be used to attack a single target more than once.
>
>My knee-jerk reaction is to say, if you want to attack more frequently in a
>Turn, buy more Speed.
Yeah but that applies to an ordinary sweep as well
>My second thought is to consider applying the OCV and Strength penalties to
>the first attack as well. This maneuver modifier clearly has the intent of
>putting speed over power.
They do, sorry if the writeup wasnt clear on that, it uses all ordinary
sweep rules.
>My third is that I think I would not want to see this on ranged attacks.
>Sure, a normal human being can repeatedly squeeze the trigger of a handgun
>quickly, running through an 8-round magazine in about two seconds. I did
>it on a shooting range just to see how quickly I could do it. This is
>something quite appart from *HITTING* what he wants to hit. For this kind
>of thing you really want to use a stray shots rule to see what does get
>hit.
Consider David Hinkley's assualt on President Reagan.. he killed one man,
crippled another and almost killed the president, off by about an inch (that
was probably his best shot). Now watch a tape of that and hear how fast he
empties that gun... less than 2 seconds
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Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 11:32:14 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: The Average man...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> > Say what! We deal with a set of game mechanics here, Rat.
>
> Show me a mechanic in any Hero product that bases how many character points
> a character can spend, and when, on rolled dice.
Show me a GM who's going to allow an unlimited points expenditure
on Skills without some justification for the expenditure. I require a
bit of time, sometimes substantial, to be spent. A teacher with a skill
like this would be a rationale for shortening that time, roll or no roll.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 12:39:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Sweep variant
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sun, 19 Apr 1998, Christopher Taylor wrote:
> >My third is that I think I would not want to see this on ranged attacks.
> >Sure, a normal human being can repeatedly squeeze the trigger of a handgun
> >quickly, running through an 8-round magazine in about two seconds. I did
> >it on a shooting range just to see how quickly I could do it. This is
> >something quite appart from *HITTING* what he wants to hit. For this kind
> >of thing you really want to use a stray shots rule to see what does get
> >hit.
>
> Consider David Hinkley's assualt on President Reagan.. he killed one man,
> crippled another and almost killed the president, off by about an inch (that
> was probably his best shot). Now watch a tape of that and hear how fast he
> empties that gun... less than 2 seconds
If I remember correctly, Hinkley fired 6 rounds from a .22 revolver in 1.6
seconds.
I'd also like to point out that the recoil argument falls apart when one
looks at cinematic or slightly futuristic settings (which is what I'd use
this rule for). One regular sees Westerns and HK 'heroic bloodshed'
movies where the main chracter fire thier pistols as fast as possible and
with resonable accuracy. I also remember a statement in" Ghost in the
Shell" about a cyborg locking her arm and suffer negligible recoil effects
from rapid fire.
Granted you can use Autofire to simulate this sort of power, but in
heroic-levle game where your limited to 100 or 150 points and all your
equipment is free, it makes sense to allow a maneuver to simulate this
sort of stunt.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 10:54:46 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Power Question: Gas Cloud
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Rick Holding writes:
>
> > I'm not aware of any place that states that a power with charges
> > that has an extended time needs also to have Continuous or are we talking
> > about different effects?
>
> Check the FAQ. The official ruling is that Continuous Charges requires
> either a constant base power or the Continuous advantage. Also of import
> is that a continuous attack requires a half-phase attack action to maintain
> it unless you also have Uncontrolled.
>
> I was simply running along with the idea.
Fair enough. Are these FAQ's going to be in the 5th edition and where
are they at the moment? A lot of stuff seems to be taken from them.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 11:25:50 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Block vs Dodge
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 09:28 PM 4/17/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> >
> >Bob Greenwade writes:
> >
> >> Why does D's DCV affect A's chance to hit in the proposed Block method,
> >> and not in the standard block method?
> >
> >Because in the proposed block method, A's chance of getting past D's block
> >is directly dependant upon how much his attack roll beats the roll he
> >needs, which is directly dependant on D's DCV. Watch:
> >
> >A rolls 11, hitting D's DCV even. D must roll 11- (11 - 0) to block.
> >A rolls 10, hitting D's DCV by 1. D must roll 10- (11 - 1) to block.
> >A rolls 9, hitting D's DCV by 2. D must roll 9- (11 - 2) to block.
> >A rolls 8, hitting D's DCV by 3. D must roll 8- (11 - 3) to block.
>
> I must have missed this. Would the person who made this original
> proposal care to comment on this? Did I miss something, or is Rat reading
> something into the idea that isn't there? (It sure wouldn't be the first
> time in either case....)
Nope, what Rat is saying is correct. The better the roll of A, the
harder for D to block the attack. Now I will admit this probarly makes Block
less effective between two clones than Dodge (although I would still argue that
not as much as some may think).
But consider the case if A has CV of 9 and D has a CV of 5.
Standard methods: Dodge - A needs 12- to hit D, about 6 times in 10
Block - A needs 15- to hit D, while D needs 7- to block. A
hits 95% of the time, while being blocked 20-25%.
Modified Block. A still hits 15- but D's block goes from
below 3- to up to 11- depending on what a rolled.
The above sort of example actually happened to me very recently. I was
playing an old fart (dex 12, cv 4, 2 h-h skill levels) and I had just seen this
combat monster chop the young knight down in one blow and I was next. (He had a
higher speed than me as well, damn it!). Dodging would not have helped at all
to keep me alive, so I threw out a couple of blocks and stayed alive (more by
luck than anything else [he was rolling relatively badly]) long enough for help
to come.
The other conditional as to do you try to block or dodge is where are
your skill levels? If they are on OCV, and they are large enough to make a
difference, you would be better to abort to a block. If they are on DCV, then
abort to a dodge.
We have played this method for many years and have found that it does
not detract from the useage of blocks. We still answer the question based on
what is the best option based on relative OCV's and DCV's at the time.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:01:44 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com>
CC: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org, champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: ANIME HERO (WAS Re: Japan Sourcebook)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Hero Games wrote:
> In a message dated 4/17/98 3:51:41 PM, traveler@io.com wrote:
>
> >Oh, I'm not disputing that it would be less impractical electronically;
> >I'm just saying that it would still be impractical, given Hero Plus'
> >apparent pricing schemes.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean. What's wrong with the Hero Plus pricing scheme?
> We're offering the books for anywhere from 30% to 50% less in electronic
> format than they would be in print. Basically, books of up to about 100 pages
> are $10; books up to about 250 pages are $15; and larger books are $20. That's
> all based on our production costs, and I think it's also important to note
> that for copies we sell direct (through our web site or at cons) the creators
> get 30% of that revenue.
>
> -- Steve Peterson, Hero Games
yeah but Steve, you're not taking into account how your games have affected our
lives! We no work just game. No have money! just give me books please? OOg!
sorry.
my therapist took the weekend off,
CHad
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Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:41:50 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Grossly Complex problem
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<power based on draw poker>
First, I see no reason not to extend the Activation Table down to 3-.
Die Probabiity Limitation
Roll roll or less 1-1/p Actual Proposed
3 0.46% -215 -199
4 1.85% -53 -49
5 4.63% -20 1/2 -19
6 9.26% -9 3/4 -9
7 16.20% -5 1/4 -4
8 25.93% -2 3/4 -2
9 37.50% -1 3/4 -1 1/2
10 50.00% -1 -1 1/4
11 62.50% - 1/2 -1
12 74.07% - 1/4 - 3/4
13 83.80% - 1/4 - 1/2
14 90.74% 0 - 1/2
15 95.37% 0 - 1/4
16 98.15% 0 0
17 99.54% 0 0
18 100.00% 0 0
The 1-1/p formula gives the value that would, if the sole Limitation,
make the real points most nearly equal the expectation value of the
active points.
Note that, based on expectations, that 11- and better are bargains: you
get more limitation than you lose in power. IMO, this represents a bonus
for uncertainty: a power that might not work at the critical moment is
much less powerful than one that is guaranteed to work.
Note also that, based on expectations, that 9- and 8- are poor purchases.
This may have been a reluctance to allow Limitations to exceed -2, or a
judgment that activations in this range are more likely to be used for
powers that can be tried a couple of times, but need only work once.
The "actual" column gives the book value, and the "proposed" column the
value that I would use to extend the table. I chose the values for
computational simplicity: -9 is 1/10 cost; -19 is 1/20; -199 is 1/200.
The overriding minimum of 1 pt per power holds.
Now, consider the types of poker hands. There are 2,598,960 distinct
hands at draw poker: all equally likely on the deal. Stud Poker is a bit
more complex, since the order of the deal matters to the betting, which
is the whole point of the game in ordinary circumstances.
To compute the chances of any given hand, we need merely consider how
many such hands there are.
Hand Type Number Prob. Limitation Cum Prob Limitation
Royal Flush 4 0.0002% -649,739 0.0002% -649,739
Straight Flush 36 0.0014% -72,192 1/4 0.0015% -64,973
Four of a Kind 624 0.0240% -4,164 0.0255% -3,913
Full House 3,744 0.1441% -693 1/4 0.1696% -588 1/2
Flush 5,108 0.1965% -507 3/4 0.3661% -272
Straight 10,200 0.3925% -253 3/4 0.7586% -130 3/4
Three of a Kind 54,912 2.1128% -46 1/4 2.8715% -33 3/4
Two Pair 123,552 4.7539% -20 7.6254% -12
Pair 1,098,240 42.2569% -1 1/4 49.8823% -1
Ace High 502,860 19.3485% -4 1/4 69.2308% -1/2
King High 335,580 12.9121% -6 3/4 82.1429% -1/4
Queen High 213,180 8.2025% -11 1/4 90.3454% 0
Jack High 127,500 4.9058% -19 1/2 95.2512% 0
Ten High 70,380 2.7080% -36 97.9592% 0
Nine High 34,680 1.3344% -74 99.2936% 0
Eight High 14,280 0.5495% -181 99.8430% 0
Seven High 4,080 0.1570% -636 100.0000% 0
Note that a seven-high bust is slightly less likely on the deal than a
flush! Comparing the probabilities shows us that poker hands can be
crudely approximated via 3D6:
Hand # hands prob. 3D6
Straight or + 19,716 0.7586% 3
Three of a Kind 54,912 2.1128% 4
Two Pair 123,552 4.7539% 5
Pair 1,098,240 42.257% 6 to 10
Ace High 502,860 19.349% 11
King High 335,580 12.912% 12
Queen High 213,180 8.2025% 13
Jack High 127,500 4.9058% 14
Ten High 70,380 2.7080% 15
Nine High 34,680 1.3344% 16
Eight High 14,280 0.5495% 17
Seven High 4,080 0.1570% 18
If the 3 is rolled, we roll again on 3D6:
Hand # hands prob. rel. prob on 3D6
Royal Flush 4 0.0002% 0.0203% 3
Straight Flush 36 0.0014% 0.1826% 4
Four of a Kind 624 0.0240% 3.1649% 5
Full House 3,744 0.1441% 18.9897% 6 to 8
Flush 5,108 0.1965% 25.9079% 9 or 10
Straight 10,200 0.3925% 51.7346% 11 to 18
Now, if you permit one draw of up to 3 cards, the chances are roughly as
follows:
Chance of improving one pair to 3 of a kind: 40%
Chance of improving one pair to 4 of a kind: 0.5%
Chance of improving 3 of a kind to full house: 10%
Chance of improving 3 of a kind to 4 of a kind: 1.5%
Chance of completing a four-flush: 20%
Chance of completing a four-card straight: 23%
Chance of completing an inside straight: 4%
Chance of any other improvement is similar to a new deal
If you permit repeated draws, the chances of getting four of a kind
rapidly approach unity, as do the chances of completing a flush starting
from three or four cards of the same suit. If allowed to go all the way
through the deck, one can always achieve the hand one wants, given time
to make ten or twenty draws, and assuming that one does not take detours
nor forget the cards that one has seen.
If you are going to allow the deal and one draw, and use anything like
the correct probability values for limitations, then the costs of the
powers for three-of-a-kind and above are going to be so small that I
wouldn't bother putting them into a power framework. If you are going to
allow repeated draws through the entire deck, then decide how long it
takes per draw (one full phase?) and base your limitation on Variable
Limitation: Activation or Extra Time. If you are going to reshuffle the
deck after each draw, then Royal Flushes are going to take a while
longer to get.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:07:41 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Ultimate Utility Belt
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
BIG pockets.....
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Dave Mattingly writes:
>
> > 1u Steroids: 2d6 Aid STR, lose 1/minute [16 charges]
>
> Stimulants, not steroids.
>
> > 1u Skateboard: +5" Running @ 0 END
>
> In a utility belt?!?! :)
>
> I'd model it as NCMs, or a mix of a little extra Running and an NCM.
>
> > 1u Suction Cups: Clinging, usable by 1 other
>
> If these are UBO, so should the skateboard.
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use
> Charset: noconv
>
> iQCVAwUBNTesE56VRH7BJMxHAQE3FQP/ZJbhyE7OB/nzMajOUwPddtsaWnKuRHHN
> bWrS7OMsQVOo+h4uxewDjoXcF2FfZVogoeaqO+QQXCyVuqpuatALEv8sZ2dDea6q
> BQfqHJo1AWxmsLFXgTn9D/CuoaLC46ApmcbKAIabqG007vcUvopn4xQA5MtyGmHL
> VdDF6HPE72s=
> =YkPy
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> --
> Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
> PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
> \
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Subject: RE: Babylon 5
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 98 19:32:30 -0400
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
To: "Hero Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Goode, Jason JGoode@medrad.com 4/18/98 5:47 PM
>Actually, as I recall it, there are military teeps. Or at least were. I do
>recall Bester saying something about not liking it, about the nature of
>their assignments and hat the Psicorps still has ultimate control. I
>recall that his problem was that teeps are superior to normal humans and
>that they are to rare and valuable a commodity to waste on the front lines.
>Of course, that might have in one of the novels....
When Cmnd. Sinclair was under investigation, a teep assigned as an aid
to the military officer conducting the investigation was present. Teeps
can't join the military, but they can and are assigned as "advisors". In
addition, the Corps itself has the Black Omegas, PsiCops trained in all
the
latest fighters and military toys. So while you won't find a teep legally
serving in Earth Force, there are certainly effectively "military" teeps
running around (and the situation may be worse, we don't know whose
piloting
the Corps mother ships that don't exist and won't come out of hyperspace
until the "right" time).
The hard part of translating B5 comes more from the fact that Psi's never
improve the raw power of their abilities once they finish basic training.
In essence, they use the RSR limitation and you can improve that, but the
number of dice etc never changes. A P5 is a P5 forever, well unless the
First Ones intervene...
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Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 20:05:22 -0400
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net>
Subject: RE: Babylon 5
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>When Cmnd. Sinclair was under investigation, a teep assigned as an aid
>to the military officer conducting the investigation was present. Teeps
>can't join the military, but they can and are assigned as "advisors". In
>addition, the Corps itself has the Black Omegas, PsiCops trained in all
>the latest fighters and military toys. So while you won't find a teep
legally
>serving in Earth Force, there are certainly effectively "military" teeps
>running around (and the situation may be worse, we don't know whose
>piloting the Corps mother ships that don't exist and won't come out of
>hyperspace until the "right" time).
I think the teep was named Harriman Gray. He wanted to be in Earthforce
but could not because he was a teep. In a later episode Bester mentions
about teeps being able to detect thoughts at long range in Hyperspace, but
that information is not commonly known because Psicorp doesn't want teeps
stationed on military ships. Good point on the 'motherships', almost
notiohg was shown about them.
>The hard part of translating B5 comes more from the fact that Psi's never
>improve the raw power of their abilities once they finish basic training.
>In essence, they use the RSR limitation and you can improve that, but the
>number of dice etc never changes. A P5 is a P5 forever, well unless the
>First Ones intervene...
True. One possibility is that the rating is potential. But since
Psicorp training should push the person at least close to potential before
they go anywhere it makes little practical difference. One interesting
thing is that the most recent season five ep seemed to show part of their
mental defense costs endurance.
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Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 17:27:08 -0700
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Grossly Complex problem
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:41 PM 4/19/1998 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
><power based on draw poker>
>
>First, I see no reason not to extend the Activation Table down to 3-.
>
>Die Probabiity Limitation
>Roll roll or less 1-1/p Actual Proposed
>3 0.46% -215 -199
>4 1.85% -53 -49
>5 4.63% -20 1/2 -19
>6 9.26% -9 3/4 -9
>7 16.20% -5 1/4 -4
>8 25.93% -2 3/4 -2
>9 37.50% -1 3/4 -1 1/2
>10 50.00% -1 -1 1/4
>11 62.50% - 1/2 -1
>12 74.07% - 1/4 - 3/4
>13 83.80% - 1/4 - 1/2
>14 90.74% 0 - 1/2
>15 95.37% 0 - 1/4
>16 98.15% 0 0
>17 99.54% 0 0
>18 100.00% 0 0
The alignment was awfuly skewed, but I think most of us (myself among
them) could figure it out.
>The "actual" column gives the book value, and the "proposed" column the
>value that I would use to extend the table. I chose the values for
>computational simplicity: -9 is 1/10 cost; -19 is 1/20; -199 is 1/200.
>The overriding minimum of 1 pt per power holds.
Actually I prefer the pattern of doubling the Bonus per -3 to the roll:
Roll Bonus
3 -6
4 -5
5 -4
6 -3
7 -2 1/2
>Note that a seven-high bust is slightly less likely on the deal than a
>flush! Comparing the probabilities shows us that poker hands can be
>crudely approximated via 3D6:
>
>Hand # hands prob. 3D6
>Straight or + 19,716 0.7586% 3
>Three of a Kind 54,912 2.1128% 4
>Two Pair 123,552 4.7539% 5
>Pair 1,098,240 42.257% 6 to 10
>Ace High 502,860 19.349% 11
>King High 335,580 12.912% 12
>Queen High 213,180 8.2025% 13
>Jack High 127,500 4.9058% 14
>Ten High 70,380 2.7080% 15
>Nine High 34,680 1.3344% 16
>Eight High 14,280 0.5495% 17
>Seven High 4,080 0.1570% 18
>
>If the 3 is rolled, we roll again on 3D6:
>
>Hand # hands prob. rel. prob on 3D6
>Royal Flush 4 0.0002% 0.0203% 3
>Straight Flush 36 0.0014% 0.1826% 4
>Four of a Kind 624 0.0240% 3.1649% 5
>Full House 3,744 0.1441% 18.9897% 6 to 8
>Flush 5,108 0.1965% 25.9079% 9 or 10
>Straight 10,200 0.3925% 51.7346% 11 to 18
I like this way of representing it....
>Now, if you permit one draw of up to 3 cards, the chances are roughly as
>follows:
I don't think I'd worry about the vagaries of the draw. I got the
impression from the original description that each draw would take an extra
Phase. Having to take 15 Phases (or whatever) in the middle of combat to
draw cards can be quite a limiter (not as much as a straight Activation
Roll, I'll admit, but still....)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Sweep variant
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Michael Surbrook writes:
> If I remember correctly, Hinkley fired 6 rounds from a .22 revolver in 1.6
> seconds.
And he hit his intended target once out of all six shots. That accurately
demonstrates my point: wild fire is unreliable at best. You are relying on
filling a volume of space to hit your target. This is either suppression
fire or stray shots.
> I'd also like to point out that the recoil argument falls apart when one
> looks at cinematic or slightly futuristic settings (which is what I'd use
> this rule for).
Oh, sure. I did not mean to say that the maneuver is bad, per se. My
point is that a "normal" person is not going to be able to utilize this
maneuver.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: The Average man...
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Tim R Gilberg writes:
>> Show me a mechanic in any Hero product that bases how many character points
>> a character can spend, and when, on rolled dice.
> Show me a GM who's going to allow an unlimited points expenditure
> on Skills without some justification for the expenditure.
Show me a character with an unlimited number of points to spend on
anything. :)
> I require a bit of time, sometimes substantial, to be spent. A teacher
> with a skill like this would be a rationale for shortening that time,
> roll or no roll.
The point: the roll is entirely unnecessary.
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Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 21:54:55 -0400
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net>
Subject: RE: Babylon 5
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>Didn't that really high Psi-Corps runaway boost...er...the blonde, early in
>the series...that woman's abilities? I got the impression that she was made
>greater after he encounter with him...though that could be an artifact of
>her false personality (the real personality having a highter P rating than
>the false one).
Both Talia Winters (The blonde) and Lyta Alexander were made to exceed
their P ratings, but only by outside forces enchancing them. Despite the
fact this happened to both telepaths on B5, it seems to be a exceedingly
rare occurance. Rare enough Psicorp was interested in studying both of
them.
>
>Anyway. P rating might represent an active power limit (say, Px5= active?),
>but would it limit the breadth of abilities? Learn new tricks?
This part is unclear. To a degree there is a limit though. There seem to
be certain things that require a high P rating to do at any level.
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Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 21:18:10 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: The Average man...
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> > Show me a GM who's going to allow an unlimited points expenditure
> > on Skills without some justification for the expenditure.
>
> Show me a character with an unlimited number of points to spend on
> anything. :)
I've seen some pretty big buildups. Enough to go from no ability
in a skill to the 18- range in a single session, if points could be spent
at will with no training time.
> > I require a bit of time, sometimes substantial, to be spent. A teacher
> > with a skill like this would be a rationale for shortening that time,
> > roll or no roll.
>
> The point: the roll is entirely unnecessary.
I'd tend to agree, actually. Being an off-screen thing, this
isn't an area where huge detail is needed. I'd say that someone who's a
little better at teaching would be a little quicker, that's about all.
However, I could see a system to figure out more exact learning times,
especially for more "realistic" campaigns -- this chart would include
things like "Teaching Skill?", "Skill Roll MAde By", "Student's INT", etc.
This could actually be useful for such genres as Fantasy Hero and Western
Hero.
But your point of the roll being unnecessary is the same one that
can be made for a mechanic not having to make any sort of roll for the
routine. He can fix the team vehicle in the off time, no problem. As I
earlier suggested, the Teaching skill could be used sort of like Cramming,
UBO -- you can temporarily give use of a skill you know to another, given
a good roll.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 21:27:43 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Art/Craft Skills
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> Why should skills be treated any differently? A scientist character should
> not have to spend points on sciences unless those skills are being used
> during the game.
So a character who, in a secret ID, is a scientist should have to
pay nothing for the science skills if he never gets around to using it in
game? Rat, your replies have become, however impossible it seems, even
more idiotic and unfounded. Many skills are background, Rat. There is
nothing wrong with buying a skill for such. And a good GM will find ways
for those skills to find use in a game.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: RE: Babylon 5
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>The hard part of translating B5 comes more from the fact that Psi's never
>improve the raw power of their abilities once they finish basic training.
>In essence, they use the RSR limitation and you can improve that, but the
>number of dice etc never changes. A P5 is a P5 forever, well unless the
>First Ones intervene...
Didn't that really high Psi-Corps runaway boost...er...the blonde, early in
the series...that woman's abilities? I got the impression that she was made
greater after he encounter with him...though that could be an artifact of
her false personality (the real personality having a highter P rating than
the false one).
Anyway. P rating might represent an active power limit (say, Px5= active?),
but would it limit the breadth of abilities? Learn new tricks?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Now, we get bigger guns."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins and Ron Prins
jprins@interhop.net
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Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:08:36 -0500
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Art/Craft Skills
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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At 09:27 PM 4/19/98 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> Why should skills be treated any differently? A scientist character should
>> not have to spend points on sciences unless those skills are being used
>> during the game.
>
> So a character who, in a secret ID, is a scientist should have to
>pay nothing for the science skills if he never gets around to using it in
>game? Rat, your replies have become, however impossible it seems, even
>more idiotic and unfounded.
While I don't agree with Rat in this case, I've found his arguments to be
anything but "idiotic and unfounded". It's logical, it's just not based on
the same priorities as my own views (and, presumably, yours). Can the tone,
please -- this is supposed to be a FRIENDLY forum.
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Art/Craft Skills
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Tim R Gilberg writes:
> So a character who, in a secret ID, is a scientist should have to
> pay nothing for the science skills if he never gets around to using it in
> game?
If a skill never has any use within the game, it has no point value. If it
is a background skill, write it down somewhere so you and the GM have a
reference, and if something bizarre happens and the skill does become
relevant, use some earned experience to pay for it.
It is not idiotic or unfounded. It is logical corrolary to the concept of
paying points for things that have value in the game. If it has value, it
costs points; if it has no value, it costs nothing.
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From: "Robert" <baron@stlnet.com>
To: "Champs" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: How do I...
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:21:06 -0500
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-----Original Message-----
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Friday, April 17, 1998 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: How do I...
>> Btw, I thought of another Limitation for the taser: Cannot penetrate
>>Armor/rDEF.
>
><< Thats true, if the barbs get caught in the clothing..., then the taser
>don't work, but the current CAN still pass through thick clothing... >>
>
> So then what's wrong (in your opinion) with portraying it as an NND?
>
Mark, please read the previous mail I have sent suggesting it might be an
activation check with modifiers up to the GM depending on the thickness or
presence of clothing.
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From: "Robert" <baron@stlnet.com>
To: "Champs" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: How do I...
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:26:32 -0500
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-----Original Message-----
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
To: baron@stlnet.com <baron@stlnet.com>
Date: Friday, April 17, 1998 5:41 PM
Subject: Re: How do I...
><< Energy defense is put there for a reason. >>
>
> What's the big deal? I'm not saying this is an "official ruling" or
anything
>of the sort. I simply feel the special effect and/or "effect" is closer to
an
>NND than a Stun-only EB. If you disagree, fine. You can do it either way.
>
> But consider this; If the "poison dart" is good enough to serve as an
>example in the BBB then what the heck is wrong with an "eletro-charged
dart?"
>
There is no big deal. You and I disagree. Really, this is not affecting my
life this much. Take it easy. And I know yours is not (yet) the official
word on Champs. Its up to the interpreatation and thats where you and I
differ. And as for the poison dart, there are SEVERAL different ways of
doing that as well and I don't take the BBB as gospel either. I use what I
want in a game. I am merely debating my point
.
><< Why should a brick who can catch a live wire in his teeth just to please
>kiddies at a charity benefit be threatened by a cop weilding a taser. Would
>Superman be intimidated by a taser-weilding cop or would he be amused? >>
>
> Both situations can be adequately simulated by tweaking the Limitations
on
>the power. Just a thought.
>
Why tweak when you have a PERFECTLY GOOD power already there to simulate
what a taser and a stun gun do. EB, stun only.
> After reading the NND description again, I do think that the bit about
>ignoring Force Walls would be a bit of a stretch... except that Force Walls
>are inherently resistant, therefore would stop the attack (assuming the
>defenses that stop the NND attack in question include rDEF).
>
>> The taser does not deliver a lethal charge of electricity designed to fry
>one's flesh.
>
><< RIGHT... thats why its EB, stun only. >>
><< The fact that it doesn't do body isn't good enough reason to make it
NND.
>>>
>
> NNDs inherently do Stun Only and only do Body in special cases (GM's
>approval). This point of yours is lost on me. And I didn't realize I needed
>your permission to have a differing opinon. ::sigh::
>
Mark, don't get testy and don't think I am handing crap down from on high. I
resent the implication. You and I have argued a point. Don't make it
personal or that just shows immaturity....
(Rob sticks his tongue out at you) There... now THATS the mature way to
handle it.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: The Average man...
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Tim R Gilberg writes:
> However, I could see a system to figure out more exact learning times,
> especially for more "realistic" campaigns
Uh-huh... "realistic" means something like three to four months of
classroom study (less for an intenstive course of study) plus associated
out of classroom time to justify the expenditure of 1-2 points on a skill
being learned from scratch. Beyond the "base" level of skill it requires
close to a year of class work per 1-2 points.
Me, I like the simple 1-3 points (depending on the type of campaign) per
week of study or training, modified by a bit of common sense on the part of
the GM. Not exactly realistic, but if you want Real Life, why are you
playing Hero?
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From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 23:48:52 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: AID to Psychological Disads.
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
In a message dated 98-04-17 15:36:12 EDT, you write:
> ProZak has the glorious ability to create pills and liquids that
> temporarily negate various forms of Psychological Disadas.
> Is it possible to have an AID vs. Psychologiocal Disads?
> ...just wondering.
How about a Focused, Charges, Independent (if allowable) Mind Control, "only
to overcome" the Psych Lim?
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Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:54:11 -0500
To: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins), champ-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: RE: Babylon 5
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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>Didn't that really high Psi-Corps runaway boost...er...the blonde, early in
>the series...that woman's abilities? I got the impression that she was made
>greater after he encounter with him...though that could be an artifact of
>her false personality (the real personality having a highter P rating than
>the false one).
Jason Ironheart apparently gave Talia Winter a TK ability, supposedly
extremely rare among telepaths. Whether anything will come of this is
anybody's guess at this point, since the actress is now a regular on a
different show (NYPD Blue) and no one has heard anything of Ironheart for
years now.
Damon
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Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 23:57:11 -0400
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: RE: Babylon 5
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<x-rich>>>The hard part of translating B5 comes more from the fact that Psi's never
>>improve the raw power of their abilities once they finish basic training.
>>In essence, they use the RSR limitation and you can improve that, but the
>>number of dice etc never changes. A P5 is a P5 forever, well unless the
>>First Ones intervene...
>
>Didn't that really high Psi-Corps runaway boost...er...the blonde, early in
>the series...that woman's abilities? I got the impression that she was made
>greater after he encounter with him...though that could be an artifact of
>her false personality (the real personality having a highter P rating than
>the false one).
Jason Ironheart modified Talia Winters (the blonde) somewhat, but he was a unique being and he's gone. The Vorlons modified Lyta Alexander and others considerably, but they're gone, too. Unless you have another Deus ex Machina on hand, you're stuck with the majority of teeps - where you were at puberty.
Now, having a PC modified by an outside force (The Great Machine on Epsilon Three?) could be a very cool story, but it wouldn't happen as a matter of course, and it would -always- come with strings attached.
>Anyway. P rating might represent an active power limit (say, Px5= active?),
>but would it limit the breadth of abilities? Learn new tricks?
Undoubtedly, teeps can learn new tricks, but their existing bag of tricks seems rather small. Bester is amazed at Lyta's Vorlon-enhanced psychokinetic abilities (Psi-Corps has been trying to create them). Even the teeps of older races (Minbari, Centauri) seem limited to essentially the same routines as human telepaths.
It is worth noting that in a recent episode ("The Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father"), it is revealed that Psi-Corps is training "mind-shredders", telepathic assassins. Bester also hints that Psi-Corps is trying to develop a way to record thoughts. The Vorlons had already succeeded in this, but they're a million years more advanced than human telepaths.
Scott
<bold>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
</bold>Scott C. Nolan
nolan@erols.com
</x-rich>
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From: "Ron Abitz" <ronald@centraltx.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Art/Craft Skills
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 23:18:44 -0500
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----------
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
>-----
>
> Tim R Gilberg writes:
>
> > So a character who, in a secret ID, is a scientist should have to
> > pay nothing for the science skills if he never gets around to using it
in
> > game?
>
> If a skill never has any use within the game, it has no point value. If
it
> is a background skill, write it down somewhere so you and the GM have a
> reference, and if something bizarre happens and the skill does become
> relevant, use some earned experience to pay for it.
>
> It is not idiotic or unfounded. It is logical corrolary to the concept
of
> paying points for things that have value in the game. If it has value,
it
> costs points; if it has no value, it costs nothing.
>
>
Does the same thing aplie to powers? If so make a chaacters with all kinds
of skills and powers and only "buy" them at neeed:-)
Ron Abitz
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Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 23:28:02 -0500
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: The Average man...
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>Me, I like the simple 1-3 points (depending on the type of campaign) per
>week of study or training, modified by a bit of common sense on the part of
>the GM. Not exactly realistic, but if you want Real Life, why are you
>playing Hero?
That's it! We put out a new genre book called "Real Life HERO" and all the
detailed and 'realistic' treatments of firemen, plumbers, teachers, food
service workers and computer programmers can be written up with loving
attention to all the particulars... in some cases, written up by practicing
members of the profession/art/lifestyle.
Guess I just volunteered to write up the Smart Ass package deal... ;)
Damon
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
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Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:02:59 -0700
To: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net&>
jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins), champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: RE: Babylon 5
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At 10:54 PM 4/19/98 -0500, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>>Didn't that really high Psi-Corps runaway boost...er...the blonde,
early in
>>the series...that woman's abilities? I got the impression that she
was made
>>greater after he encounter with him...though that could be an
artifact of
>>her false personality (the real personality having a highter P
rating than
>>the false one).
>
>Jason Ironheart apparently gave Talia Winter a TK ability,
supposedly
>extremely rare among telepaths. Whether anything will come of this
is
>anybody's guess at this point, since the actress is now a regular on
a
>different show (NYPD Blue) and no one has heard anything of
Ironheart for
>years now.
>
That 'boost' was supposed to convert Talia into the 'super telepath'
that Lyta eventually became. When the actress left the show, that
part of the arc was given to Lyta. It's rather ironic, in that Lyta's
contact with Kosh back in the pilot was supposed to be the
trigger;then Lyta left, so a new 'hook' was needed, which was the
Ironheart story;then, of course, TALIA left, so JMS brought back Lyta
and had her rebuilt by the Vorlons.
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 05:37:15 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: The Average man...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 03:04 AM 4/20/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
>Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>Subject: Re: The Average man...
>
>> > I require a bit of time, sometimes substantial, to be spent. A teacher
>> > with a skill like this would be a rationale for shortening that time,
>> > roll or no roll.
>>
>> The point: the roll is entirely unnecessary.
>
> I'd tend to agree, actually. Being an off-screen thing, this
>isn't an area where huge detail is needed. I'd say that someone who's a
>little better at teaching would be a little quicker, that's about all.
>However, I could see a system to figure out more exact learning times,
>especially for more "realistic" campaigns -- this chart would include
>things like "Teaching Skill?", "Skill Roll MAde By", "Student's INT", etc.
>This could actually be useful for such genres as Fantasy Hero and Western
>Hero.
Maybe you could write something up for Digital Hero. I'm sure Bruce
would love the opportunity for more material. :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 05:49:30 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Art/Craft Skills
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At 11:16 PM 4/19/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Tim R Gilberg writes:
>
>> So a character who, in a secret ID, is a scientist should have to
>> pay nothing for the science skills if he never gets around to using it in
>> game?
>
>If a skill never has any use within the game, it has no point value. If it
>is a background skill, write it down somewhere so you and the GM have a
>reference, and if something bizarre happens and the skill does become
>relevant, use some earned experience to pay for it.
That first statement makes an assumption: that the GM knows ahead of
time what Skills are going to turn up in the game. It also assumes that
the GM's process of creating adventures is independent of the PCs'
abilities, weaknesses, and background, since the GM will never devise a
scenario element specifically designed to use certain Skills and other
abilities.
The real question (IMO) isn't whether a Skill *will* be used in the
game; it's how much scenario-relevant utility the PC gets out of it when it
is used. A smart GM can always make sure that anything the PCs pay points
for gets used at least every several sessions or so, just as a smart GM can
always make sure that anything from which the PC gets points (that is,
Disadvantages) come into play with reasonable frequency.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Art/Craft Skills
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:14:22 -0400
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Now it's a dice-less and skill-less game. I think we've crossed over into
the Amber universe.
<LOL>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim R. Gilberg [SMTP:trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu]
> Sent: Sunday, April 19, 1998 10:28 PM
> To: Goode, Jason
> Cc: Champions
> Subject: Re: Art/Craft Skills
>
>
> > Why should skills be treated any differently? A scientist character
> should
> > not have to spend points on sciences unless those skills are being used
> > during the game.
>
> So a character who, in a secret ID, is a scientist should have to
> pay nothing for the science skills if he never gets around to using it in
> game? Rat, your replies have become, however impossible it seems, even
> more idiotic and unfounded. Many skills are background, Rat. There is
> nothing wrong with buying a skill for such. And a good GM will find ways
> for those skills to find use in a game.
>
>
>
> -Tim Gilberg
>
> -"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: Babylon 5
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:22:56 -0400
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He's not so much amazed by her having the abilities (since 1 in a thousand
teeps does have them) as he is by the fact that they're strong, and, more
importantly, she is mentally stable. All natural human teeks are either
mentally unstable, or very weak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Nolan [SMTP:nolan@pop.erols.com]
> Sent: Sunday, April 19, 1998 11:57 PM
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: RE: Babylon 5
>
> Undoubtedly, teeps can learn new tricks, but their existing bag of tricks
> seems rather small. Bester is amazed at Lyta's Vorlon-enhanced
> psychokinetic abilities (Psi-Corps has been trying to create them). Even
> the teeps of older races (Minbari, Centauri) seem limited to essentially
> the same routines as human telepaths.
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: Babylon 5
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:25:02 -0400
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But they did go at it for an hour at a time, then switch places, so the
expenditure can't be too much, at least not after training.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TokyoMark [SMTP:bastet@iquest.net]
> Sent: Sunday, April 19, 1998 8:05 PM
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: RE: Babylon 5
>
> One interesting thing is that the most recent season five ep seemed to
> show part of their mental defense costs endurance.
>
>
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:08:21 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: San Angelo continuity
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Hero Games
>Well, yes, we'd certainly like people to collect all of the books. For
advanced users, missing a book or two isn't likely to cause as much of a
problem, since they'll be the ones who don't use the universe as is in any
case. They pick and choose bits they like, and modify them to suit. So
continuity (or lack thereof) isn't really important for them.<
That's one perception which has always made me cringe, that you're not an
advanced user unless you've hacked the published world until it's almost
unrecognizable. It implies that people who use published settings
more-or-less verbatim have a lack of imagination and creativity. I think
this view originates with "armchair world builders" but has become somewhat
of an RPG prejudice.
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:08:45 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: The source of all power?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> Heck, I don't even know that I go along with the need for flux or Gate
Keys or that kind of thing to explain *all* paranormal abilities. It is
cool to have, and I'm not against it; it just seems like a unnecessary
thing (aside from the story hooks and such Mark mentioned).<
That's my feeling.... It's nice to have because it can offer several story
ideas, but it's not a make-or-break issue for a world setting.
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From: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Examples (Was RE: Politics in the game)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:32:07 -0500
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> I'm working on a Christian Hero/Villian group. I'm going
with the
> currently popular assumption of Gabrial as a semi-rogue angel
trying to
> take the top ArchAngel spot from Michael. She's (yes, she)
has come to
> Earth assuming that all the supernatural/superhuman activity
is an
> abhorrance and is starting a group to try to wipe it out,
being an Angel
> hero for getting rid of the menace. So far I've got
Revelation, a MA with
> a spiritual sword of holy white flame, and Rapture, a female
flying EB
> with holy white flame. I'm trying to think of a third so I
can call the
> team The Trinity, but haven't been able to think of a cool
term. Anyone?
Sound like nasty villains to me.
Why can't religious characters be the good guys for once?
This is the way they are almost always portrayed.
This is the Left-wing anti-religion stuff I was talking about!
Talk about negative (and unrealistic) stereotypes!
OK, Puma stop ranting now! (and no, I'm not a religious
fanatic!)
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
- Joan of Arc's .sig
Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:23:23 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Favorite Moments
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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One of my favorite moments:
In our 375-point campaign, we were on Dr. Destroyer's island and some of
his lackeys were circling above us, waiting to strike (I'm not sure if this
was one of the published Dr. Destroyer adventures or something our GM made
up). Finally, Gigaton (I don't know his stats, but I would guess they had
been increased since the PCs were so powerful) dives out of the sky,
directly at our brick. Well, the brick decides to brace for knockback.
Gigaton slams into the brick at full speed, and they make a crater several
stories deep--I remember the GM describing underground passages that ended
at the edges of this pit. The brick stands back up and says "My turn."
Huge Presence attack, since Gigaton can't believe the brick is still
standing. The brick punches the dumbfounded Gigaton and sends him back up
the big hole they made. My earth controller, who was looking down the hole
to find out what happened, sees Gigaton coming back up to the surface, so
he summons earth over the entrance...Gigaton slams into it, causing
something of a reverse-crater (a hill?), and then falls back unconscious at
the feet of our brick. Nice...the whole group was amazed that the brick
was still conscious after a move-through from Gigaton. I think they were
both stunned, which sorta cancelled them out since they had the same SPD.
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:31:12 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Involuntary Move-Through
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Suppose VillainMan is flying at full combat velocity, and HeroMan throws up
a force wall right in front of VillainMan. VillainMan is going too fast to
stop and his turn radius is too wide to let him avoid it, so he hits the
wall.
How do you figure the damage for this? Would it be like a move-through,
except without any STR damage added in (this means that his velocity would
be divided by 3)? Or should his STR count? Or is his velocity irrelevant,
and he takes damage just as if he had been knocked back into a wall? I
think the last one is probably correct, but I thought I'd check to see if
velocity should be a factor.
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:43:16 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Cinematic "Meanwhile..."
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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I don't own the Legend of the Five Rings RPG, but I have been told that it
has a storytelling concept where the GM says something like "Meanwhile, in
the black castle, the evil wizard summons his minions and sends them on a
dark errand" (that's very simplistic...you'd probably want more detail
here). This is generally information that the PCs could not know, but
which isn't especially harmful and which can really give a cinematic feel
and a sense of time to the game. Anyway, after a brief description of what
the bad guys are up to, the action returns to the PCs.
It seems to me like this concept could work really well in a superhero
game. Has anybody tried anything like this? How did it go?
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: The Average man...
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 20 Apr 1998 13:52:00 -0400
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Michael (Damon) or Peni R Griffin writes:
> Guess I just volunteered to write up the Smart Ass package deal... ;)
I'll help you out with the "sarcastic smart ass" one. :)
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: The Average man...
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:55:27 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Gasp! You mean...I could be not really understanding what you are saying?
That, in the natural process of filtering new information through my own
pre-existing views, I might failing to grasp all the aspects of your system?
Oh, my. Dear me. Then,...why, that must mean that you might be having the
same problem.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stainless Steel Rat [SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net]
> Sent: Sunday, April 19, 1998 8:50 AM
> To: Champions
> Subject: Re: The Average man...
>
> spend. It is less draconian than you seem to think.
>
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:57:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Involuntary Move-Through
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
---David B Stallard wrote:
>
> Suppose VillainMan is flying at full combat velocity, and HeroMan
throws up
> a force wall right in front of VillainMan. VillainMan is going too
fast to
> stop and his turn radius is too wide to let him avoid it, so he hits
the
> wall.
>
> How do you figure the damage for this? Would it be like a
move-through,
> except without any STR damage added in (this means that his velocity
would
> be divided by 3)? Or should his STR count? Or is his velocity
irrelevant,
> and he takes damage just as if he had been knocked back into a wall?
I
> think the last one is probably correct, but I thought I'd check to
see if
> velocity should be a factor.
I treat it just like falling, with damage based entirely on velocity.
-=>John D.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Art/Craft Skills
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Ron Abitz writes:
> Does the same thing aplie to powers?
As a matter of fact, yes. The frequently used example is picking up a
thug's gun and using it. You can use it, but if you want to keep it and
the campaign is one in which characters must pay points for gadgets, you
must spend points for it.
> If so make a chaacters with all kinds of skills and powers and only "buy"
> them at neeed:-)
Well, you cannot normally spend experience during the game. But suppose
that you and the GM had created a list of background skills that the
character has but has not paid for. If one of those skills suddenly
becomes applicable in the course of the game, the GM might allow you to
spend some of your experience then.
Of course, said list should be reasonable. Use a bit of common sense.
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: The Benefits (?) of Dice (was: The Average Man)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:07:19 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Wow! What a coincidence! We all have the same views of what is important
and what is trifling. Gee, and I thought that the process of acquiring and
learning skills, powers, talents and perks might actually be interesting to
the story. Silly me.
Question: Since you feel that dice are a 'speedbump', I'm curious to know
if you've done a diceless port of champions. If so, please post it or
e-mail me direct. I would be interested to see it. (and I mean that
seriously. I've only ever had that chance to play a diceless game once
(Amber), but I did enjoy it.)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Nolan [SMTP:nolan@pop.erols.com]
> Sent: Saturday, April 18, 1998 6:51 PM
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: The Benefits (?) of Dice (was: The Average Man)
>
> Dice are tools. No more, no less. If you find that randomness increases
> your enjoyment, go for it. Many don't. I view the dice as a speedbump,
> slowing me down on my way to the story. There are many games that are
> completely diceless.
>
> What the above sounds like to me is a GM who realizes that trifling
> details can be glossed over with a fair decision and that the story will
> move far more quickly and he and his players can concentrate on the fun.
> Try it. Save your dice for situations that really call for randomness (I
> don't know any of those, personally, but I suspect that many people would
> cry "combat!" as a good answer.)
>
> Scott
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> She loves me all that she can,
> And her ways to my ways resign;
> But she was not made for any man,
> And she never will be all mine.
> Edna St. Vincent Millay, Witch-Wife, 1917
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Scott C. Nolan
> nolan@erols.com
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Art/Craft Skills
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Bob Greenwade writes:
> That first statement makes an assumption: that the GM knows ahead of
> time what Skills are going to turn up in the game.
Well, the nature of the campaign will go a long way towards giving you a
good idea whether or not a particular skill will have general usefulness.
Being an expert in Aztec mythology, or knowing every nook and cranny of
downtown London will do you little good in a campaign set in modern LA.
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: The Average man...
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 04:45:55 +1000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>
> > However, I could see a system to figure out more exact learning times,
> > especially for more "realistic" campaigns
>
> Uh-huh... "realistic" means something like three to four months of
> classroom study (less for an intenstive course of study) plus associated
> out of classroom time to justify the expenditure of 1-2 points on a skill
> being learned from scratch. Beyond the "base" level of skill it requires
> close to a year of class work per 1-2 points.
>
> Me, I like the simple 1-3 points (depending on the type of campaign) per
> week of study or training, modified by a bit of common sense on the part
of
> the GM. Not exactly realistic, but if you want Real Life, why are you
> playing Hero?
>
As opposed to what, gurps? *l*
rolemaster? *lol*
fuzion? *lmao*
hehehehhehhe
heh.
hmm. . .
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: The Benefits (?) of Dice (was: The Average Man)
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Goode, Jason writes:
> Wow! What a coincidence! We all have the same views of what is
> important and what is trifling. Gee, and I thought that the process of
> acquiring and learning skills, powers, talents and perks might actually
> be interesting to the story. Silly me.
And people say that I am a sarcastic SOB.
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 12:04:18 -0700
To: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Cinematic "Meanwhile..."
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:43 PM 4/20/98 -0400, David B Stallard wrote:
>I don't own the Legend of the Five Rings RPG, but I have been told that it
>has a storytelling concept where the GM says something like "Meanwhile, in
>the black castle, the evil wizard summons his minions and sends them on a
>dark errand" (that's very simplistic...you'd probably want more detail
>here). This is generally information that the PCs could not know, but
>which isn't especially harmful and which can really give a cinematic feel
>and a sense of time to the game. Anyway, after a brief description of what
>the bad guys are up to, the action returns to the PCs.
>
This was also suggested in the Star Wars game. Something like having two
Imperial techs talking:
Tech 1:"Hey, that power converter is starting to go!"
Tech 2:"Don't worry. As long as no one hits the main sensor array with an
ion cannon, it'll hold until we get to a starport for repairs."
Later on in the game, of course, the PCs are supposed to hit the main
sensor array with an ion cannon, shorting the shields and stopping the Star
Destroyer from wiping out the rebel base.
I've never tried this, as it's too unsubtle even for *me*, and as my
players will attest, I'm not overly subtle. ("We look for the large neon
sign reading 'clue'" was a quote from one game I ran...)
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:06:42 -0400
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Involuntary Move-Through
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:31 PM 4/20/98 -0400, David B Stallard wrote:
>Suppose VillainMan is flying at full combat velocity, and HeroMan throws up
>a force wall right in front of VillainMan. VillainMan is going too fast to
>stop and his turn radius is too wide to let him avoid it, so he hits the
>wall.
>
>How do you figure the damage for this? Would it be like a move-through,
>except without any STR damage added in (this means that his velocity would
>be divided by 3)? Or should his STR count? Or is his velocity irrelevant,
>and he takes damage just as if he had been knocked back into a wall? I
>think the last one is probably correct, but I thought I'd check to see if
>velocity should be a factor.
>
I would calculate the velocity a la Move Through, but discount the
STR (unless he actually WAS trying to do a Move Through). So he
would take half (I think ... I don't have the book handy) of the
V/3, unless the force wall holds, in which case he takes the full
damage.
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:10:33 -0400
To: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Cinematic "Meanwhile..."
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:43 PM 4/20/98 -0400, David B Stallard wrote:
>I don't own the Legend of the Five Rings RPG, but I have been told that it
>has a storytelling concept where the GM says something like "Meanwhile, in
>the black castle, the evil wizard summons his minions and sends them on a
>dark errand" (that's very simplistic...you'd probably want more detail
>here). This is generally information that the PCs could not know, but
>which isn't especially harmful and which can really give a cinematic feel
>and a sense of time to the game. Anyway, after a brief description of what
>the bad guys are up to, the action returns to the PCs.
>
>It seems to me like this concept could work really well in a superhero
>game. Has anybody tried anything like this? How did it go?
>
We do that all the time. We either write it up as a narrative (usually
e-mailed outside of the gaming session), or work it into a newspaper
article for our bi-weekly paper. It tends to give everybody a more
colorful feel for the scenario, and can be useful when the GM wants
to "hint" the characters in a particular direction. The drawback is
that there is a strong temptation for the player to use the information
when the character shouldn't.
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:33:14 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Cinematic "Meanwhile..."
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>I don't own the Legend of the Five Rings RPG, but I have been told that it
>has a storytelling concept where the GM says something like "Meanwhile, in
>the black castle, the evil wizard summons his minions and sends them on a
>dark errand" (that's very simplistic...you'd probably want more detail
>here). This is generally information that the PCs could not know, but
>which isn't especially harmful and which can really give a cinematic feel
>and a sense of time to the game. Anyway, after a brief description of what
>the bad guys are up to, the action returns to the PCs.
Well, I just bought L5R a few days ago, and it does indeed have a section
like that - but it mainly deals with prologues and epilogues. It does
mention, however, that it takes a bit of roleplaying on the players part to
'play dumb' concerning the 'revealed' events. But if you've got decent
roleplayers, it sure sounds like a cool thing to do.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Now, we get bigger guns."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins and Ron Prins
jprins@interhop.net
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From: Rog <uraeus@mail3.bunt.com>
Cc: "'[unknown]'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Cinematic "Meanwhile..."
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:38:27 +0200
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I haven't had a chance to use this technique yet, but yes I plan on
using it. I was a player in a campaign where the GM did just this
sort of thing..he called them cut-scenes: a cut away from the heroes
to the behind-the-scenes scene. We had great fun under that GM!
-Roger
----------
From: David B Stallard [SMTP:DBStallard@compuserve.com]
Sent: Monday, April 20, 1998 7:43 PM
Cc: [unknown]
Subject: Cinematic "Meanwhile..."
I don't own the Legend of the Five Rings RPG, but I have been told that it
has a storytelling concept where the GM says something like "Meanwhile, in
the black castle, the evil wizard summons his minions and sends them on a
dark errand" (that's very simplistic...you'd probably want more detail
here). This is generally information that the PCs could not know, but
which isn't especially harmful and which can really give a cinematic feel
and a sense of time to the game. Anyway, after a brief description of what
the bad guys are up to, the action returns to the PCs.
It seems to me like this concept could work really well in a superhero
game. Has anybody tried anything like this? How did it go?
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Cinematic "Meanwhile..."
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 05:43:44 +1000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>
> I don't own the Legend of the Five Rings RPG, but I have been told that
it
> has a storytelling concept where the GM says something like "Meanwhile,
in
> the black castle, the evil wizard summons his minions and sends them on a
> dark errand" (that's very simplistic...you'd probably want more detail
> here). This is generally information that the PCs could not know, but
> which isn't especially harmful and which can really give a cinematic feel
> and a sense of time to the game. Anyway, after a brief description of
what
> the bad guys are up to, the action returns to the PCs.
>
> It seems to me like this concept could work really well in a superhero
> game. Has anybody tried anything like this? How did it go?
There wuz something like this in the 'champions in 3d' product, a short
piece
featuring the astrologer guy and the evil kaufman (who ain't much of an
opposite
if current posts on politics are nething to go by). I was interested in
this sort of thing,
and ended up 'drafting' players into bit-parts in villainous scenes with
little direct effect-
but we also did them as flashbacks. I.E. the heroes discover come security
footage,
and then the group plays the villains goons stealing some stuff or
whatever. Sounds
boring but it makes a nice change of gears if your group is into that sort
of thing. The
simple narrative noted above is actually more difficult, you have to make
it substantial-
you can't just say 'Dr claw watches the heroes through his video screen as
they x, y
and z.' because the players alread know that.
One very sucessful method i used once was the odd scene change. The
master villain was holding the city to hostage, with the heroes just
getting
this news at the end of scene three. The start of scene four is the gm
describing the villain
gloating/whwatever with some henchmen back at his base, finger poised over
the 'bang' button.
And ending with a tech comeing in and telling the villain that the
interuption was ready. A large
screen lit up in front of the villain, and on it- was the leader of the
hero group. The leaders player
reacted perfectly, starting off with 'what- how did you get this frequency!
' and going from there.
Hence the scene is done from the perspective of the villains base, although
most of the action
invovles the hero.
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Cinematic "Meanwhile..."
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 05:43:44 +1000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>
> I don't own the Legend of the Five Rings RPG, but I have been told that
it
> has a storytelling concept where the GM says something like "Meanwhile,
in
> the black castle, the evil wizard summons his minions and sends them on a
> dark errand" (that's very simplistic...you'd probably want more detail
> here). This is generally information that the PCs could not know, but
> which isn't especially harmful and which can really give a cinematic feel
> and a sense of time to the game. Anyway, after a brief description of
what
> the bad guys are up to, the action returns to the PCs.
>
> It seems to me like this concept could work really well in a superhero
> game. Has anybody tried anything like this? How did it go?
There wuz something like this in the 'champions in 3d' product, a short
piece
featuring the astrologer guy and the evil kaufman (who ain't much of an
opposite
if current posts on politics are nething to go by). I was interested in
this sort of thing,
and ended up 'drafting' players into bit-parts in villainous scenes with
little direct effect-
but we also did them as flashbacks. I.E. the heroes discover come security
footage,
and then the group plays the villains goons stealing some stuff or
whatever. Sounds
boring but it makes a nice change of gears if your group is into that sort
of thing. The
simple narrative noted above is actually more difficult, you have to make
it substantial-
you can't just say 'Dr claw watches the heroes through his video screen as
they x, y
and z.' because the players alread know that.
One very sucessful method i used once was the odd scene change. The
master villain was holding the city to hostage, with the heroes just
getting
this news at the end of scene three. The start of scene four is the gm
describing the villain
gloating/whwatever with some henchmen back at his base, finger poised over
the 'bang' button.
And ending with a tech comeing in and telling the villain that the
interuption was ready. A large
screen lit up in front of the villain, and on it- was the leader of the
hero group. The leaders player
reacted perfectly, starting off with 'what- how did you get this frequency!
' and going from there.
Hence the scene is done from the perspective of the villains base, although
most of the action
invovles the hero.
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:50:57 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Cinematic "Meanwhile..."
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Lizard
>I've never tried this, as it's too unsubtle even for *me*, and as my
players will attest, I'm not overly subtle. ("We look for the large neon
sign reading 'clue'" was a quote from one game I ran...)<
Well, I'm not talking about using "Meanwhile..." to give hints to the
players. It's just a way to clue them in to the larger world around them.
For example, you might say, "Meanwhile, in the village of Smalltown, the
peaceful night is broken by the beating of drums as the goblin horde rushes
in to sack yet another settlement." The players have no chance to
intervene, but it lets them know that the goblins haven't stopped their
raids, and creates a sense of urgency for the players. To move it to
superheroes, you could say, "Meanwhile, Dr. Destroyer scans his monitors
and grins. With the capture of the MegaPowerJewel, his plan is one step
closer to fruition. Those fools Team Hero have been a thorn in his side,
but in the end their effort will be futile. Destroyer will reign supreme!"
These should probably be fleshed out some more, but they are just asides
which don't help or hurt the PCs but give the players a bigger sense of the
world. Anyway, this is all just theory since I haven't used it in my
campaign yet.
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: The Benefits (?) of Dice (was: The Average Man)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:02:57 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Sorry. Just seemed like an obvious point that the poster (and I know it
wasn't you, Rat) missed.
;-)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stainless Steel Rat [SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net]
> Sent: Monday, April 20, 1998 2:46 PM
> To: Champions
> Subject: Re: The Benefits (?) of Dice (was: The Average Man)
>
> And people say that I am a sarcastic SOB.
>
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:23:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: (L&O) Some Cop Equipment
To: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
GoldRushG writes:
>
> That's a good question. Here's the answer (well, my answer). ;) While
> the
> device does work on a "Constant" basis if left on, it requires the user to
> "Concentrate" in order to use their knowledge and experience to: 1) read
> the digital diaply, and more importantly 2) determine which vehicle in the
> radar's "field of vision" is actually being detected by the unit.
I.e. it is a 'detect' (requires a half-phase to use) rather than a 'sense'
(requires a zero phase to use). It could, of course, also require being
half-DCV, which is what 'concentrate' really means (concentrate is thus
slightly a misnomer).
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:27:26 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Cinematic "Meanwhile..."
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by INTERNET:jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
>One very sucessful method i used once was the odd scene change. The
master villain was holding the city to hostage, with the heroes just
getting
this news at the end of scene three. The start of scene four is the gm
describing the villain
gloating/whwatever with some henchmen back at his base, finger poised over
the 'bang' button.
And ending with a tech comeing in and telling the villain that the
interuption was ready. A large
screen lit up in front of the villain, and on it- was the leader of the
hero group. The leaders player
reacted perfectly, starting off with 'what- how did you get this frequency!
' and going from there.
Hence the scene is done from the perspective of the villains base, although
most of the action
invovles the hero. <
I like that idea! Your example was basically what I had in mind--stuff
that doesn't hurt if the player knows it when the PC couldn't. However, I
wasn't expecting your little twist at the end where you let the PCs pick up
the action right there. I'll have to give that a try....
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:27:32 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: RE: Cinematic "Meanwhile..."
Cc: "'[unknown]'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Rog
>I haven't had a chance to use this technique yet, but yes I plan on
using it. I was a player in a campaign where the GM did just this
sort of thing..he called them cut-scenes: a cut away from the heroes
to the behind-the-scenes scene. We had great fun under that GM!<
Can you give a few examples? Did he reveal info that your PCs shouldn't
know, so you had to play dumb, or was it stuff that your PCs really
couldn't know but which they couldn't have affected anyway, so there's no
harm in them knowing it?
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:28:08 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Involuntary Move-Through
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 06:31 PM 4/20/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Involuntary Move-Through
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>
>Suppose VillainMan is flying at full combat velocity, and HeroMan throws up
>a force wall right in front of VillainMan. VillainMan is going too fast to
>stop and his turn radius is too wide to let him avoid it, so he hits the
>wall.
>
>How do you figure the damage for this? Would it be like a move-through,
>except without any STR damage added in (this means that his velocity would
>be divided by 3)? Or should his STR count? Or is his velocity irrelevant,
>and he takes damage just as if he had been knocked back into a wall? I
>think the last one is probably correct, but I thought I'd check to see if
>velocity should be a factor.
I'd go with your first choice, myself. His movement is intentional and
technically "controlled" (with thrust behind it rather than just momentum),
but he's not putting any STR into it.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:32:59 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Examples (Was RE: Politics in the game)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Sound like nasty villains to me.
Well, they will start out as heroes.
> Why can't religious characters be the good guys for once?
They are, sometimes. However, any type of strong ideology makes
for a good villian groups -- fanatics are always popular, no matter what
idea they follow.
> This is the way they are almost always portrayed.
Not really, and these will be a bit interesting. The members that
are transformed get much more fanatic from the transformation. However,
their rhetoric will be presuasive to many who have seen the damage caused
by heroes and villians fighting. Any hero going against these three will
be in a bit of a PR bind.
> This is the Left-wing anti-religion stuff I was talking about!
Tell you what, don't use them in your game. Those of us less
stuck on a 2000+ year old mythology will use the sources we can for
whatever we can.
> Talk about negative (and unrealistic) stereotypes!
Eh? You seem to suggest that _only_ positive images of religious
people are valid. This will be a group painted in shades of grey, not
fully evil, but, to the heroes, not fully good. Gabriel will be the real
villian behind it all.
So, anyone up to helping me write-up an Archangel?
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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From: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Cinematic "Meanwhile..."
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:34:30 -0500
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>I haven't had a chance to use this technique yet, but yes I plan on
>using it. I was a player in a campaign where the GM did just this
>sort of thing..he called them cut-scenes: a cut away from the heroes
>to the behind-the-scenes scene. We had great fun under that GM!
I call it "Scene Shift". Usually only do it to where other PCs are
or to something that's comic relief. ^_^
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
- Joan of Arc's .sig
Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:36:04 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Art/Craft Skills
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 02:08 PM 4/20/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Bob Greenwade writes:
>
>> That first statement makes an assumption: that the GM knows ahead of
>> time what Skills are going to turn up in the game.
>
>Well, the nature of the campaign will go a long way towards giving you a
>good idea whether or not a particular skill will have general usefulness.
>Being an expert in Aztec mythology, or knowing every nook and cranny of
>downtown London will do you little good in a campaign set in modern LA.
A good GM will look at the characters with those abilities and do things
like bringing Aztec artifacts to Los Angeles, or send the PCs to London
periodically.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:38:00 -0700
To: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Cinematic "Meanwhile..."
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:50 PM 4/20/98 -0400, David B Stallard wrote:
>Well, I'm not talking about using "Meanwhile..." to give hints to the
>players. It's just a way to clue them in to the larger world around them.
>For example, you might say, "Meanwhile, in the village of Smalltown, the
>peaceful night is broken by the beating of drums as the goblin horde rushes
>in to sack yet another settlement." The players have no chance to
>intervene, but it lets them know that the goblins haven't stopped their
>raids, and creates a sense of urgency for the players. To move it to
>superheroes, you could say, "Meanwhile, Dr. Destroyer scans his monitors
>and grins. With the capture of the MegaPowerJewel, his plan is one step
>closer to fruition. Those fools Team Hero have been a thorn in his side,
>but in the end their effort will be futile. Destroyer will reign supreme!"
> These should probably be fleshed out some more, but they are just asides
>which don't help or hurt the PCs but give the players a bigger sense of the
>world. Anyway, this is all just theory since I haven't used it in my
>campaign yet.
>
OK, I'll try something like that in my upcoming game and see if it works.
But when my Call of Cthulhu GM tried something similair, it reslted in all
of us charging off to Arkham/Dunwich/Rlyeh/etc to go interfere in whatever
was going on, regardless of the squamous beastie we were SUPPOSED to be
chasing.
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:40:48 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Re: San Angelo continuity
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
In a message dated 4/20/98 12:34:12 PM, DBStallard@compuserve.com wrote:
<<That's one perception which has always made me cringe, that you're not an
advanced user unless you've hacked the published world until it's almost
unrecognizable. It implies that people who use published settings
more-or-less verbatim have a lack of imagination and creativity. I think
this view originates with "armchair world builders" but has become somewhat
of an RPG prejudice.>>
I don't think of it that way; I think people who use the published settings as
is may not have the time or the desire to modify them. They aren't necessarily
lacking in creativity.
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:43:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Involuntary Move-Through
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
> At 01:31 PM 4/20/98 -0400, David B Stallard wrote:
> >Suppose VillainMan is flying at full combat velocity, and HeroMan throws up
> >a force wall right in front of VillainMan. VillainMan is going too fast to
> >stop and his turn radius is too wide to let him avoid it, so he hits the
> >wall.
>
> I would calculate the velocity a la Move Through, but discount the
> STR (unless he actually WAS trying to do a Move Through). So he
> would take half (I think ... I don't have the book handy) of the
> V/3, unless the force wall holds, in which case he takes the full
> damage.
Somethign to remember is that someopne who is doing a Move Through is
generally 'ready' for it - by which I mean that they are bracing
themselves for the impact, they have a good idea of when it's going to
occur, etc. This might not be the case in this situation (the wall
springs up in front of the speedster).
Calculating it as a Move Through would be the best option if the villain
had time to prepare for the impact - making a PER roll before running into
the wall, for example. Otherwise, I'd use another system, or possibly
make him take full damage instead of half damage from the Move Through.
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: (L&O) Some Cop Equipment
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 20 Apr 1998 16:43:25 -0400
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Anthony Jackson writes:
> It could, of course, also require being half-DCV, which is what
> 'concentrate' really means (concentrate is thus slightly a misnomer).
Try 0 DCV for a modern RADAR gun. If the hand unit is not stationary, it
will return incorrect results. Thus, the not quite myth of a speed gun
clocking a tree at something absurdly faster than 0mph.
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:44:24 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: San Angelo continuity
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Pat10355
>Our chief goal, however, remains producing books that are helpful to
gamers.
Any story elements in new books are going to be structured so that they can
be
altered, customized or even ignored if the GM so desires. We'll likely
throw
in some tips on how to do it, and some options to help fit the book into
your
campaign.<
So, there wouldn't be anything major like San Angelo gets conquered by
aliens in supplement #4, is still conquered by aliens in supplements #5 and
#6, and finally regains freedom in #7? But there might be minor things
(things easy to ignore if you don't like them) like Hero A becomes Villain
A in supplement #3?
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:45:22 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: The Benefits (?) of Dice (was: The Average Man)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 02:07 PM 4/20/1998 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote:
>Question: Since you feel that dice are a 'speedbump', I'm curious to know
>if you've done a diceless port of champions. If so, please post it or
>e-mail me direct. I would be interested to see it. (and I mean that
>seriously. I've only ever had that chance to play a diceless game once
>(Amber), but I did enjoy it.)
If you'd like a look at a diceless combat and skill system specifically
designed for the Hero System, take a look at the one on my website. It can
eliminate about 95% of die-rolling from a game (depending on how severely
you implement it). It's been playtested by about a half-dozen game groups,
and while there have been some concerns that have required fixes they
haven't been as extreme as they would appear at first glance (except for a
trouble with Mentalists becoming overpowering, and there are some
recommendations I've posted for adjusting the campaign to fix this).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:57:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dennis C Hwang <dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu>
To: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: The source of all power?/origins?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, GoldRushG wrote:
> << Well, i'd think a few ppl are a tad leery of another singularity orbiting
> the earth's core....that's what, four or five down there now? *j/k* >>
>
> Eh? Where else has this been used?
Well, David Brin had one or two in _Earth_, as I recall.
--Dennis
*************************************************************
* dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu * xenopathologist at large! *
*************************************************************
* So...you're keeping me alive because you don't know *
* DOS. *
* *
* --Izzy to Gabriel *
* THE PROPHECY II *
*************************************************************
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:01:08 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Cinematic "Meanwhile..."
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<< This was also suggested in the Star Wars game.>>
I think they call them "Cut Scenes" or some other cinematic term. I think
they're great. The subtlety can be tweaked; how much info you give the PCs --
er, players -- is up to you. I use it on occasion, especially when the players
are stalling or just dragging their feet, or sidetracked, or...
I have used a similar technique when introducing a new scenario, except I
actually had the *players* play the NPCs. For example, if the PCs are going to
find four dead bodies in *their* first scene, I may run a "mysterious multiple
homicide" as a prologue, in which the players themselves play the NPCs who are
killed.
I'm careful not to give away any vital clues that need to surface later (the
killer, the exact cause of death, or whatever). It's fun to watch the players
start to get nervous as these completely unfamiliar NPCs they are playing
start getting wasted. <LOL> Of course, the other value (ahem) is that the
players immediately have an interest and "involvement" in the story, even if
artificially introduced. My players seem to enjoy it, eh Pat? ;)
Mark @ GRG
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:06:13 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Cinematic "Meanwhile..."
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<< The drawback is that there is a strong temptation for the player to use the
information when the character shouldn't. >>
This is the very reason I never "reveal" anything as the GM that I don't
want them to know (as PCs) right off the bat. For instance, in one scenario
they were going to be investigating a mysterious shadowy creature that
"forced" criminals to turn themselves into police. I ran a quick intro with
the players playing robbery suspects, who ran into the shadow.
I described everything to the players just as one of the NPCs would later
describe it to the PCs when they questioned one of the "witnesses." (Does that
make any sense? <LOL>) Only I didn't have to describe it the second time
because they'd already "played" it. I simply said, "he tells you what
happened." The players could then use their own memory of the events as we
played them.
It was pretty fun. :)
Mark @ GRG
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:07:13 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Cinematic "Meanwhile..."
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 06:45 PM 4/20/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Cinematic "Meanwhile..."
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>
>I don't own the Legend of the Five Rings RPG, but I have been told that it
>has a storytelling concept where the GM says something like "Meanwhile, in
>the black castle, the evil wizard summons his minions and sends them on a
>dark errand" (that's very simplistic...you'd probably want more detail
>here). This is generally information that the PCs could not know, but
>which isn't especially harmful and which can really give a cinematic feel
>and a sense of time to the game. Anyway, after a brief description of what
>the bad guys are up to, the action returns to the PCs.
>
>It seems to me like this concept could work really well in a superhero
>game. Has anybody tried anything like this? How did it go?
I've only seen this done once, at the end of a four-parter. The PCs in
a Justice, Inc. game had been fighting (among other things) animated suits
of medieval armor, and after we had all left and cleared out one of the
supposedly deactivated thingies abruptly sat up. It created a nifty sense
of foreboding for the players (at least, speaking for myself), but wasn't
in a position to affect play any.
When it's used, I'd recommend that those last two clauses be considered.
Will it add to dramatic effect? Does it impart knowledge to the players
that might affect how their characters react later? If the answers are yes
and no respectively, I say go for it.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:07:30 -0700
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Cinematic "Meanwhile..."
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 12:04 PM 4/20/1998 -0700, Lizard wrote:
>This was also suggested in the Star Wars game. Something like having two
>Imperial techs talking:
>Tech 1:"Hey, that power converter is starting to go!"
>Tech 2:"Don't worry. As long as no one hits the main sensor array with an
>ion cannon, it'll hold until we get to a starport for repairs."
>
>Later on in the game, of course, the PCs are supposed to hit the main
>sensor array with an ion cannon, shorting the shields and stopping the Star
>Destroyer from wiping out the rebel base.
This contrasts nicely with my other statements; it does impart the
players with information that their characters might well know.
>I've never tried this, as it's too unsubtle even for *me*, and as my
>players will attest, I'm not overly subtle. ("We look for the large neon
>sign reading 'clue'" was a quote from one game I ran...)
Some time put an object in a museum of magical artifacts with a sign
over it that reads, "Touch this and die!," just to see what happens.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:08:06 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Sweep variant
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>My knee-jerk reaction is to say, if you want to attack more frequently in a
>Turn, buy more Speed.
<< Or autofire, depending on the desired dynamic, SFX, etc. >>
>My third is that I think I would not want to see this on ranged attacks.
What about spreading an Energy Blast? :/
Mark @ GRG
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:18:32 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: I'm done for now
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<< Really, this is not affecting my life this much. Take it easy. >>
Take it easy? That's an interesting comment. I think I will pass on replying
to it directly, considering the general atmosphere and collective "tone" of
most of the replies to my comments on this list.
<< And as for the poison dart, there are SEVERAL different ways of doing that
as well and I don't take the BBB as gospel either.>>
Oh well. Some people wanted me to post specific printed rules form the book
to support my various points of view through these discussions, and now
someone doesn't give a fart about the printed examples.
If I have an opinion it's "wrong." The fact that I'm a publisher is
irrelevant in all cases and makes me arrogant. I'm asked to post official
rulings and get flamed when I don't and flamed when I do. I am asked to
support my opiniuons with published examples and then am told that they don't
matter.
<< Mark, don't get testy and don't think I am handing crap down from on high.
I resent the implication. You and I have argued a point. Don't make it
personal or that just shows immaturity.... >>
I give up. I'm wasting my time posting to this list it seems. It's sabatical
time.
Mark @ GRG
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Subject: RE: Babylon 5
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 98 17:26:02 -0400
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
To: "John and Ron Prins" <jprins@interhop.net&>
"Hero Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
John and Ron Prins jprins@interhop.net 4/19/98 10:52 PM
>>The hard part of translating B5 comes more from the fact that Psi's never
>>improve the raw power of their abilities once they finish basic training.
>>In essence, they use the RSR limitation and you can improve that, but the
>>number of dice etc never changes. A P5 is a P5 forever, well unless the
>>First Ones intervene...
>
>Didn't that really high Psi-Corps runaway boost...er...the blonde, early in
>the series...that woman's abilities? I got the impression that she was made
>greater after he encounter with him...though that could be an artifact of
>her false personality (the real personality having a highter P rating than
>the false one).
Jason Ironheart granted Talia psychkenetic abilities. It is unclear if
those
abilities exceeded a P5 (commercial telepath) rating. The big advantage
was
she wasn't driven insane by it. He also allowed her new abilities to
remain
hidden, even from a P12. However given Bester's reaction at the end of
Mind
War, I would suspect the shield was limited to only her new abilities.
The PsiCorps has also had limited success with enhancing natural
abilities.
Jason Ironheart was the ultimate achievement, but he isn't human anymore
and, by his own admission, now lacks human perspective. Another teep who
was in the program with Jason was boosted to a P13, the only one we ever
hear of, and one teep lost all telepathic ability but gained empathic
powers. It is unclear if he is a stronger empath than he was a telepath
though. The Vorlons seeded telepathy in humans, and were able to augment
Lyta to a strong P12 or possibly P13, but she never undergoes any testing
to know for sure. At any rate, these are the only know exceptions.
>Anyway. P rating might represent an active power limit (say, Px5= active?),
>but would it limit the breadth of abilities? Learn new tricks?
I'd tend to agree that it limits AP (and Px5 sounds about right).
However,
it definantly also limits breadth. Only P12s can manage killing attacks,
only P10s mental transforms. It's unclear where clairvoyance falls, but
it
also appears to be very high end (P10-P12). TK results in madness sooner
or
later, or disection if the Corps finds out. Mind Scan can only be applied
to other teeps, and then only if their in relitive isolation or in very
close proximity. Few new tricks seem to be learned after training, but
"I haven't needed it before" reconning has started cropping up.
Scott Nolan nolan@pop.erols.com 4/19/98 11:57 PM
>It is worth noting that in a recent episode ("The Corps is Mother, The
>Corps is Father"), it is revealed that Psi-Corps is training
"mind-shredders",
>telepathic assassins. Bester also hints that Psi-Corps is trying to develop
>a way to record thoughts. The Vorlons had already succeeded in this, but
>they're a million years more advanced than human telepaths.
Actually, the vicars can do this and the Vorlon's use them for this
purpose.
We haven't seen the Vorlons themselves do anything along these lines,
though
the thought that they couldn't would be rather strange. :)
I do agree that enhancement may be possible, but should be the focus of an
entire adventure and end with all sorts of strings attached.
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From: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Examples (Was RE: Politics in the game)
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:26:24 -0500
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>Eh? You seem to suggest that _only_ positive images of religious
>people are valid.
No, but most of the images shouldn't be bad either. It should be
balanced.
That's what I'm complaining about, I see 10 negative depictions for
every
good one. Is that balanced?
>This will be a group painted in shades of grey, not
>fully evil, but, to the heroes, not fully good. Gabriel will be the
real
>villian behind it all.
If they are against the heroes, it will be hard for them not to be
portrayed as all bad, since heroes save the world, etc.
How about adding a religious hero that's good, and joins the
heroes to stop these (extremely) misguided people. Could
work out good for plot devices, kind of like the "Coriolis Effect".
Want any plot ideas? I've been GMing since the mid '80s.
Ouch, Puma feel old! ^_^;
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
- Joan of Arc's .sig
Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:42:50 -0400
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Involuntary Move-Through
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:43 PM 4/20/98 -0500, Sakura wrote:
>Somethign to remember is that someopne who is doing a Move Through is
>generally 'ready' for it - by which I mean that they are bracing
>themselves for the impact, they have a good idea of when it's going to
>occur, etc. This might not be the case in this situation (the wall
>springs up in front of the speedster).
>
>Calculating it as a Move Through would be the best option if the villain
>had time to prepare for the impact - making a PER roll before running into
>the wall, for example. Otherwise, I'd use another system, or possibly
>make him take full damage instead of half damage from the Move Through.
>
Well, there's always "surprised out of combat", in which the character
would take double damage anyway. Of course, in this example, I think
we're talking about somebody who is IN combat mode. Which, one could
argue, would allow the "bracing for impact" you mention.
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
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From: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: The source of all power?/origins?
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:55:21 -0500
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>> << Well, i'd think a few ppl are a tad leery of another
singularity orbiting
>> the earth's core....that's what, four or five down there now?
*j/k* >>
>>
>> Eh? Where else has this been used?
>Well, David Brin had one or two in _Earth_, as I recall.
Is that a singularity in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?
^_^;
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
- Joan of Arc's .sig
Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Examples (Was RE: Politics in the game)
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 20 Apr 1998 17:59:34 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Andreano, Keith HIM,VA writes:
> No, but most of the images shouldn't be bad either. It should be balanced.
> That's what I'm complaining about, I see 10 negative depictions for every
> good one. Is that balanced?
Well, no.
But then, look in the news. You might hear about the local pastor doing
good things in the town paper, but you will never hear about him in any
national paper. But the local pastor charged -- not even convicted! --
with child molestation makes the front page of every paper in the country.
And face it, the average superhero is in the biz to fight bad guys. So
generally speaking, most of the zealots he encounters will be bad guys. It
is just as biased a perspective as the city cop that says something like,
"most of the blacks I meet on the job are trying to kill me". It is a
biased perspective: most of the blacks a city cop will meet on the job are
gang kids, pimps, pushers, etc. What you must remember is that it is a
biased perspective, and be mature enough to deal with it.
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--
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:01:06 -0400
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: I'm done for now
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> If I have an opinion it's "wrong." The fact that I'm a publisher is
>irrelevant in all cases and makes me arrogant. I'm asked to post official
>rulings and get flamed when I don't and flamed when I do. I am asked to
>support my opiniuons with published examples and then am told that they don't
>matter.
I, for one, would be disappointed to see you leave the list, although
I have to say that I agree with your reasons. This group can be obnoxious,
argumentative, arrogant, opinionated, and generally rude. (And for the
record, I include myself in that description.)
There are really only two ways to approach it. You take everything
personally, in which case, you can only stay for so long before it's
more trouble than it's worth. Or you ignore the crap and wait for the
occasional useful piece of information.
In either case, remember: IT'S A GAME!! (Ok, for you, Mark, it's a
business, but the advice is the same.) There are too many fun things
in life without getting ulcers over stuff that isn't.
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
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From: Rog <uraeus@mail3.bunt.com>
Cc: "'[unknown]'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Cinematic "Meanwhile..."
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 01:09:19 +0200
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Hmmm...let me see what I remember, this game broke up about
2 years ago. He did both things; show us info that we really didn't
/shouldn't know and also some info that we couldn't affect in any way.
OK...our group had just heard about a robbery at the our friendly
neighborhood Federal Reserve (doesn't everyone have one?) where
the culprits made away with a couple of pallets of gold bars. One
of the guards had been killed and we were at the scene interviewing
witnesses trying to find some clues. While there, two MIBs in a
dark brown sedan pulled up and flashed some govt. ID and informed
the locals that they were taking over the investigation.
Anyway, later on we were on the trail of Recluse (as in the spider)
and Dr. Halogen (we didn't know their names at the time) and while
we were travelling to where we thought they were hiding out, the GM
pulled a cut-scene.
The cut scene was of a black stealth-copter approaching from the
distance. As it got closer, you saw two trenchcoated men waiting
for the copter. When it landed and the two men go to greet the
disembarking passenger. As he lights a cigar, all three faces are lit,
showing them to be the MIBs from earlier and and a short husky
man with a mustache and beard. Also illuminated by the light is a
small gold omega insignia on the chopper door. End cut-scene.
(The symbol was that of Sanction Omega, a black-ops agency;
to which my character had previously belonged to; and the third man
was his control)
Another example is from during a long string of murders of supers.
We got a scene of a tired looking middle aged woman in her house
in the middle of the night as she shuffles into the kitchen. Suddenly
she spins around her face shocked. Her expression quickly turns to
fear. Her hands start to glow then there is a blinding flash that fades
into a dark red. End scene.
The next day we read in the papers/heard on the TV about the
death of Casino, a retired hero. While there was signs of a struggle
there was no sign of forced entry. The body was totally drained of
blood (no bite marks) and there was one print that looked like that
of a very large canine.
That's all I can think of off the top of my head, but there were more.
Most were of things that we had no control over and a few with info
that could've been helpful, but the GM made it clear that we were
*not* to act on info gained purely from cutscenes.
-Roger
----------
From: David B Stallard [SMTP:DBStallard@compuserve.com]
Sent: Monday, April 20, 1998 10:28 PM
Cc: '[unknown]'
Subject: RE: Cinematic "Meanwhile..."
Can you give a few examples? Did he reveal info that your PCs shouldn't
know, so you had to play dumb, or was it stuff that your PCs really
couldn't know but which they couldn't have affected anyway, so there's no
harm in them knowing it?
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:22:37 -0500
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Examples (Was RE: Politics in the game)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>But then, look in the news. You might hear about the local pastor doing
>good things in the town paper, but you will never hear about him in any
>national paper. But the local pastor charged -- not even convicted! --
>with child molestation makes the front page of every paper in the country.
With the exception of certain types of media celebrities, this is true for
most any profession or lifestyle, however. News generally reports the "bad
stuff". The local cop, or teacher, or Air Force officer charged with child
molestation may make national news as well, whereas you'd never have heard
of these individuals otherwise. The media is not rife with examples of
fanatical USAF majors, or rightwing, ultraconservative teachers, however.
This treatment seems to be reserved for religious groups.
I don't suggest that *my* religious group necessarily receives worse
treatment than any other (and here I'm talking about the media at large,
not a group of Hero products); I think it's a more general thing. The
situation is improving, but for decades religion on TV, movies, comics,
etc. was either ignored completely, dodged ("Daddy, do you believe in God?"
"Well, son, I think I believe in *something*.") or portrayed as a kind of
mental illness or subject for humor. For most of my TV/movie/comic-viewing
life, I'd be hard pressed to name more than one or two characters who just
went to church on Sundays (or temple on Saturdays, or whatever) and didn't
make a big deal of it one way or another.
>And face it, the average superhero is in the biz to fight bad guys. So
>generally speaking, most of the zealots he encounters will be bad guys. It
>is just as biased a perspective as the city cop that says something like,
>"most of the blacks I meet on the job are trying to kill me". It is a
>biased perspective: most of the blacks a city cop will meet on the job are
>gang kids, pimps, pushers, etc. What you must remember is that it is a
>biased perspective, and be mature enough to deal with it.
And racial stereotypes are certainly at least as prevelant as religious,
but whereas (as I mentioned earlier) religion is frequently ignored
altogether, how many TV shows or movies ignore race entirely -- that is,
the entire cast of characters (main and supporting) is WASP, even though
the movie or TV series is set in New York, Detroit, Los Angeles or Miami?
Also, there are any number of ethnocentric shows on the air, with the cast
mainly consisting of one non-WASP ethnic group or another (okay, more black
than Hispanic or Oriental), but this isn't considered viable for religious
types.
Anyway, all these comments on TV and movies are relevant only in that
several gaming genres draw from them, and will inevitably adopt the
conventions the original sources use. I haven't noticed a particular
maltreatment of religious types in Hero products; if it's there, the game
didn't create the situation. At worst, it's emulating some of the
unfortunate elements of the earlier media as a side effect of giving us a
roleplaying arena in which to enjoy adventures similar to those we see in
comics and on the big screen. Faithful adaptation means you get the good
conventions and the bad.
Damon
========================
Where there is sorrow, there is holy ground.
-- Oscar Wilde
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "David B Stallard" <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 98 23:42:58
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Involuntary Move-Through
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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On Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:31:12 -0400, David B Stallard wrote:
>Suppose VillainMan is flying at full combat velocity, and HeroMan throws up
>a force wall right in front of VillainMan. VillainMan is going too fast to
>stop and his turn radius is too wide to let him avoid it, so he hits the
>wall.
So he's doing a move-through on the wall (DEF X, BOD 0). If he does X+1
damage with his modified Casual Str, then he takes no damage, otherwise
treat as normal.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:27:17 -0700
To: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com&> champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: I'm done for now
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 05:18 PM 4/20/1998 EDT, GoldRushG wrote:
><< Really, this is not affecting my life this much. Take it easy. >>
>
> Take it easy? That's an interesting comment. I think I will pass on
replying
>to it directly, considering the general atmosphere and collective "tone" of
>most of the replies to my comments on this list.
Don't let a handful of naysayers and compulsive critics get you down,
Mark. I think I'm safe in saying that the bulk of list members are excited
to have you here; it's just that, like the Letters to the Editor, the ones
who are the most opinionated tend to be the loudest and most obnoxious.
><< And as for the poison dart, there are SEVERAL different ways of doing that
>as well and I don't take the BBB as gospel either.>>
>
> Oh well. Some people wanted me to post specific printed rules form the book
>to support my various points of view through these discussions, and now
>someone doesn't give a fart about the printed examples.
Two different groups. Again, I think I'm pretty safe with the statement
that the folks who appreciate what you have to say greatly outnumber those
who don't care about your examples. I'm sure that if I posted some of my
proposed equipment and other bits from TUSV I'd get more than one "Are You
Crazy?" posts. Heck, a couple of the trusted and level-headed folks that I
send evaluation copies of the preliminary drafts had similar comments; they
were just able to make them in a way that enabled me to either back up my
ideas to their satisfaction, or feel comfortable in changing the text to
the way they saw it.
> If I have an opinion it's "wrong." The fact that I'm a publisher is
>irrelevant in all cases and makes me arrogant. I'm asked to post official
>rulings and get flamed when I don't and flamed when I do. I am asked to
>support my opiniuons with published examples and then am told that they don't
>matter.
As far as I can think, only one individual on this list -- maybe two --
would actually label someone's opinion as downright "wrong." I tend to
ignore the remarks of such individuals. It's a lot better on my blood
pressure.
Personally, Mark, even when I disagree with your opinion or your way of
doing something, I like seeing how your mind works. A couple of your
ideas, explained, have actually turned out better than my own (like a
couple of your points about that radar gun; the way you describe
Concentrate on the Sense was, well, sensible).
><< Mark, don't get testy and don't think I am handing crap down from on high.
>I resent the implication. You and I have argued a point. Don't make it
>personal or that just shows immaturity.... >>
>
> I give up. I'm wasting my time posting to this list it seems. It's
sabatical
>time.
Frankly, I didn't care for that comment (by the other person, whose
identity is lost to me by now) either -- especially since he immediately
followed a remark to not make it personal by what amounts to a personal
remark. (Granted, it's not as blatant as other, similar statements I've
heard, like, "As far as I'm concerned, anyone who passes judgement on
others can just go to hell," or, "You clean up your mouth or I'll beat your
******* head in!," but it's in the same direction.)
But please look at the whole of how you're being received, not at how
the more argumentative members treat you. Some folks will debate a matter
until the other person either gives way or refuses to continue, treating
either as a victory. I've seen it on the Fuzion list as well (though it's
not as bad there as a couple of folks here have it, and yes, I am thinking
of a couple of Specific People whom I will not identify by name because if
they don't already know who they are then doing so will just start another
argument).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 20:35:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Cinematic "Meanwhile..."
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, David B Stallard wrote:
> I don't own the Legend of the Five Rings RPG, but I have been told that it
> has a storytelling concept where the GM says something like "Meanwhile, in
> the black castle, the evil wizard summons his minions and sends them on a
> dark errand" (that's very simplistic...you'd probably want more detail
> here). This is generally information that the PCs could not know, but
> which isn't especially harmful and which can really give a cinematic feel
> and a sense of time to the game. Anyway, after a brief description of what
> the bad guys are up to, the action returns to the PCs.
>
> It seems to me like this concept could work really well in a superhero
> game. Has anybody tried anything like this? How did it go?
>
When I was running my supers game, I did this a lot. I wrote and (and
read out) bits at the begginning and ending of sessions to show events
happening elsewhere. I also did occasional scene cuts to develop an event
that was supposed to be occuring while the PCs where doing something.
With E-mail, this process has reached an all-time high. Side stories,
vinettes, intoductions, epilouges and all have been used in several games
to frame scenes and characters. Several players commented that they liked
these bits as it made certain NPCs seem even more 'real'.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 20:38:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Looking good!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Since 'Anime Hero' was such a hot topic a few days ago, I thought I'd
passs along this comment from Steve Peterson about my Kazei Five
manuscript: "I glanced at a few sections, and it looks good to me.".
Made my day just a bit brighter!
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:46:22 -0500
From: Mike Whitney <mwhitney@swbell.net>
To: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: I'm done for now
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
GoldRushG wrote:
> If I have an opinion it's "wrong." The fact that I'm a publisher is
> irrelevant in all cases and makes me arrogant. I'm asked to post official
> rulings and get flamed when I don't and flamed when I do. I am asked to
> support my opiniuons with published examples and then am told that they don't
> matter.
Sort of sounds like how JMS gets treated in the B5 conferences, Mark.
I quite enjoy your postings, myself. I usually skim the topics that I find
interesting,and yours have always been well thought-out.
Keep up the good work!
Mike
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 20:00:27 -0500
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Redbow Antiques
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Cinematic "Meanwhile..."
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
David B Stallard wrote:
> I don't own the Legend of the Five Rings RPG, but I have been told that it
> has a storytelling concept where the GM says something like "Meanwhile, in
> the black castle, the evil wizard summons his minions and sends them on a
> dark errand"
I own and have played the Legends of the Five Rings game and don't know
where this rule it, but I do think it would be intresting to use.
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 20:17:02 -0500
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Redbow Antiques
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: I'm done for now
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Gold Rush Games Wrote
> If I have an opinion it's "wrong." The fact that I'm a publisher is
> >irrelevant in all cases and makes me arrogant. I'm asked to post official
> >rulings and get flamed when I don't and flamed when I do. I am asked to
> >support my opiniuons with published examples and then am told that they don't
> >matter.
I would hope you wouldn't leave, but with the crap some people give you I can
understand why you would. I hope you realize that there are some of us on this
list who value your comments, understand the phrase "in my opinion", and think you
are doing a great service to our
game. Thanks
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 20:21:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Examples (Was RE: Politics in the game)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> >Eh? You seem to suggest that _only_ positive images of religious
> >people are valid.
>
> No, but most of the images shouldn't be bad either. It should be
> balanced.
Why? There are, almost by default, going to be more adverserial
NPCs in a game then there will be helpful NPCs. Therefore, most of the
characters with religious themes will have to be bad.
> That's what I'm complaining about, I see 10 negative depictions for
> every
> good one. Is that balanced?
Yup. See above. And I've never had a religiously themed PC . . .
oh, wait, yup. I've had two that I can remember, actually. The Holy
Crusader (nickname - The ColdCut Avenger), a knight from the middle ages
with magical equipment and Malanychus (nickname - Might-Not-Like-Us) a
demon who didn't really belong in Hell, got out, and is now serving good
with a Christian-themed philosophy. I've also had a devoutly Buddhist
hero as well as one with a strong belief in Voodoo. My personal favorite,
Derrick Tallcloud, is training to be a Medicine Man in the Ojibwa Native
American Traditon. Positive examples do exist, but most of them are PCs,
just as most good individuals in a game will be PCs.
And I can do a lot more with a fanatical group acting as enemies
with a religious themes than I can with a allied group. The latter won't
provide as much playing situations as the former, plain and simple.
> If they are against the heroes, it will be hard for them not to be
> portrayed as all bad, since heroes save the world, etc.
Um, you must run a brighter game than I. I like to bring in
shades of grey, as do the other GMs I've gamed with. My Heroes are a
little less than perfect. The Trinity will end up being quite popular
precisely because they are cleaning away the scourge of Superpowers.
> How about adding a religious hero that's good, and joins the
> heroes to stop these (extremely) misguided people. Could
> work out good for plot devices, kind of like the "Coriolis Effect".
While this may be a later development, I'm not going to mix in a
positive religious role model just to be PC. I've toyed with the idea of
some other Angel helping out, at least with information, ala "The
Prophecy" (A great religiously-themed movie, BTW.)
> Want any plot ideas? I've been GMing since the mid '80s.
And I'm a lit major. Your point? Plus I've taken a
Judeo-Christian traditions course which basically covered the bible as a
historical/mythological text. There is some really nasty things that
could be pulled out of the old testemement if I wanted ideas on how to
provide enemies for my characters.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:00:42 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Ultimate Utility Belt
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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Leah L Watts wrote:
>
> > A more complex solution, though perhaps more accurate in detail,
> would
> >be to buy the thing as a Computer, and give the Computer HRRH plus the
> >appropriate Languages with Literacy. Then you could have the mechanic
> of a
> >difficult passage of speech being mis-translated due to a failed INT
> Roll
> >by the Computer....
>
> That was one problem with using Universal Translator -- AFAIK, speech
> recognition software isn't perfect, but with UT there's no chance of a
> glitch. Good idea!
Universal translator has a int roll for correct translation, +1
per points. Buy it up to 16-, say, and that gives you the oportunity to
have the occassional glitch now and then if thats what you are after. It
also has an "accent" that could perhaps be poor grammar.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
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From: Pat10355 <Pat10355@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:27:40 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: San Angelo continuity
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<<So, there wouldn't be anything major like San Angelo gets conquered by
aliens in supplement #4, is still conquered by aliens in supplements #5 and
#6, and finally regains freedom in #7? But there might be minor things
(things easy to ignore if you don't like them) like Hero A becomes Villain
A in supplement #3?>>
Correct ... people, places and things will grow and change as new books come
out, but most alterations will be subtle or minor in the overall scheme of
things.
We want to convey the sense that San Angelo is a dynamic, living city that
changes over time, not just a static cardboard background for superfights. :)
Patrick Sweeney
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:35:50 -0500
From: Kirby Jones <cyprimus@swbell.net>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: shadowfax/archieves
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Hi all!
Does anyone know if thier is an archieve for this list, or does anyone
have a copy of a character that was sent to the list several years age
by the name of shadowfax?
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:07:37 -0600
From: A Kirkland <ajk117@mail.usask.ca>
Subject: Re: Involuntary Move-Through
X-Sender: ajk117@mail.usask.ca
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 13:28 98/04/20 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>At 06:31 PM 4/20/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>>From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: Involuntary Move-Through
>>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>>
>>Suppose VillainMan is flying at full combat velocity, and HeroMan throws up
>>a force wall right in front of VillainMan. VillainMan is going too fast to
>>stop and his turn radius is too wide to let him avoid it, so he hits the
>>wall.
>>
>>How do you figure the damage for this? Would it be like a move-through,
>>except without any STR damage added in (this means that his velocity would
>>be divided by 3)? Or should his STR count? Or is his velocity irrelevant,
>>and he takes damage just as if he had been knocked back into a wall? I
>>think the last one is probably correct, but I thought I'd check to see if
>>velocity should be a factor.
>
> I'd go with your first choice, myself. His movement is intentional and
>technically "controlled" (with thrust behind it rather than just momentum),
>but he's not putting any STR into it.
>---
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
>Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
>
>
or you could borrow the Mass as Str concept from the alternate movement
rules that were posted a while back. So Villianman would take
(STR to lift Vm)/5 + velocity/3,
limited by the Def+Bod (in this case just the def) of the obstacle.
A Kirkland
ajk117@mail.usask.ca
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From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net>
To: "John P Weatherman" <asahoshi@nr.infi.net&>
"John and Ron Prins" <jprins@interhop.net&>
"Hero Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Babylon 5
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:13:16 -0500
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-----Original Message-----
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
To: John and Ron Prins <jprins@interhop.net&> Hero Mailing List
<champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Monday, April 20, 1998 4:25 PM
Subject: RE: Babylon 5
>John and Ron Prins jprins@interhop.net 4/19/98 10:52 PM
>
>>>The hard part of translating B5 comes more from the fact that Psi's never
>>>improve the raw power of their abilities once they finish basic training.
>>>In essence, they use the RSR limitation and you can improve that, but the
>>>number of dice etc never changes. A P5 is a P5 forever, well unless the
>>>First Ones intervene...
>>
>>Didn't that really high Psi-Corps runaway boost...er...the blonde, early
in
>>the series...that woman's abilities? I got the impression that she was
made
>>greater after he encounter with him...though that could be an artifact of
>>her false personality (the real personality having a highter P rating than
>>the false one).
>
>Jason Ironheart granted Talia psychkenetic abilities. It is unclear if
>those
>abilities exceeded a P5 (commercial telepath) rating. The big advantage
>was
>she wasn't driven insane by it. He also allowed her new abilities to
>remain
>hidden, even from a P12. However given Bester's reaction at the end of
>Mind
>War, I would suspect the shield was limited to only her new abilities.
>
>The PsiCorps has also had limited success with enhancing natural
>abilities.
>Jason Ironheart was the ultimate achievement, but he isn't human anymore
>and, by his own admission, now lacks human perspective. Another teep who
>was in the program with Jason was boosted to a P13, the only one we ever
>hear of, and one teep lost all telepathic ability but gained empathic
>powers. It is unclear if he is a stronger empath than he was a telepath
>though. The Vorlons seeded telepathy in humans, and were able to augment
>Lyta to a strong P12 or possibly P13, but she never undergoes any testing
>to know for sure. At any rate, these are the only know exceptions.
>
>>Anyway. P rating might represent an active power limit (say, Px5=
active?),
>>but would it limit the breadth of abilities? Learn new tricks?
>
>I'd tend to agree that it limits AP (and Px5 sounds about right).
>However,
>it definantly also limits breadth. Only P12s can manage killing attacks,
>only P10s mental transforms. It's unclear where clairvoyance falls, but
>it
>also appears to be very high end (P10-P12). TK results in madness sooner
>or
>later, or disection if the Corps finds out. Mind Scan can only be applied
>to other teeps, and then only if their in relitive isolation or in very
>close proximity. Few new tricks seem to be learned after training, but
>"I haven't needed it before" reconning has started cropping up.
>
>Scott Nolan nolan@pop.erols.com 4/19/98 11:57 PM
>>It is worth noting that in a recent episode ("The Corps is Mother, The
>>Corps is Father"), it is revealed that Psi-Corps is training
>"mind-shredders",
>>telepathic assassins. Bester also hints that Psi-Corps is trying to
develop
>>a way to record thoughts. The Vorlons had already succeeded in this, but
>>they're a million years more advanced than human telepaths.
>
>Actually, the vicars can do this and the Vorlon's use them for this
>purpose.
>We haven't seen the Vorlons themselves do anything along these lines,
>though
>the thought that they couldn't would be rather strange. :)
>
>I do agree that enhancement may be possible, but should be the focus of an
>entire adventure and end with all sorts of strings attached.
>
Actually Vorlons have demonstrated quite a bit of TK. Rember Kosh when
Sheridan made him mad? Or Uklesh (sp) (Kosh's replacement) when Lyta
questioned him?
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: The source of all power?/origins?
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:54:37 +1000
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----------
> From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: The source of all power?/origins?
> Date: Saturday, April 18, 1998 3:44 PM
>
> << Well, i'd think a few ppl are a tad leery of another singularity
orbiting
> the earth's core....that's what, four or five down there now? *j/k* >>
>
> Eh? Where else has this been used?
>
> Mark @ GRG
Just certain sci-fi books and stuff- and from
personal experience a guy i know feels the need
to meniton that's what a singularity wold do
should one ever turn up on earth- kinda a private joke.
Don't worry i wasn't suggesting it was cliche, most of
the books that feature it are so-called 'hard' sci-fi
that seem proud of being distant and skullcrushingly
dense- kinda like a black hole!
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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 00:09:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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To: Marc Seebass <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net>
cc: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Babylon 5
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> Actually Vorlons have demonstrated quite a bit of TK. Rember Kosh when
> Sheridan made him mad? Or Uklesh (sp) (Kosh's replacement) when Lyta
> questioned him?
Vorlons in general have shown quite a bit of power. Enough so when
Sheridan got Kosh angry it registered on the scanners as a non localized
energy spike. Ironically, the war loving Shadows appeared far easier to
kill than the Vorlons.
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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 00:21:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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To: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
cc: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Babylon 5
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> Jason Ironheart granted Talia psychkenetic abilities. It is unclear if
> those
> abilities exceeded a P5 (commercial telepath) rating. The big advantage
> was
> she wasn't driven insane by it. He also allowed her new abilities to
> remain
> hidden, even from a P12. However given Bester's reaction at the end of
> Mind
> War, I would suspect the shield was limited to only her new abilities.
And all things being even, once Talia's alt personality took over, Psicorp
would certainly know all about her abilities. Whether or not she was
merely examined or actually cut up depends on how serious you feel Bester
was when he was yanking Garibaldi's chain.
> abilities.
> Jason Ironheart was the ultimate achievement, but he isn't human anymore
> and, by his own admission, now lacks human perspective. Another teep who
> was in the program with Jason was boosted to a P13, the only one we ever
> hear of, and one teep lost all telepathic ability but gained empathic
> powers. It is unclear if he is a stronger empath than he was a telepath
> though. The Vorlons seeded telepathy in humans, and were able to augment
> Lyta to a strong P12 or possibly P13, but she never undergoes any testing
> to know for sure. At any rate, these are the only know exceptions.
>
> I'd tend to agree that it limits AP (and Px5 sounds about right).
> However, it definantly also limits breadth. Only P12s can manage
> killing attacks, only P10s mental transforms. It's unclear where
> clairvoyance falls, but it also appears to be very high end (P10-P12).
> TK results in madness sooner or later, or disection if the Corps finds
> out. Mind Scan can only be applied to other teeps, and then only if
> their in relitive isolation or in very close proximity. Few new tricks
> seem to be learned after training, but "I haven't needed it before"
> reconning has started cropping up.
I think to a degree they are focusing more on the teeps, so some new
abilities have popped up. Teeps have been serious characters, but not in
stories that focused on them using their abilities beyond the basics.
The PxActive points seems reasonable, I might use that.
>
> Scott Nolan nolan@pop.erols.com 4/19/98 11:57 PM
> >It is worth noting that in a recent episode ("The Corps is Mother, The
> >Corps is Father"), it is revealed that Psi-Corps is training
> "mind-shredders",
> >telepathic assassins. Bester also hints that Psi-Corps is trying to develop
> >a way to record thoughts. The Vorlons had already succeeded in this, but
> >they're a million years more advanced than human telepaths.
I had the impression the Mindshredder was someone who was highly skilled
or talented in breaking down a teeps defenses and getting in. They didn't
seem to expect he could kill a mundane like that, but he did pose some
sort of threat to teeps. Perhaps attacks that only work v. teeps since
they are already more receptive once defenses are down.
>
> Actually, the vicars can do this and the Vorlon's use them for this
> purpose.
> We haven't seen the Vorlons themselves do anything along these lines,
> though
> the thought that they couldn't would be rather strange. :)
I half way suspect the Vorlons might have created Vicars. It has not
seemed like EarthGov has the technology to create Vicars, then seem to
have problems with cybernetics in general beyond the basic prosthetics.
>
> I do agree that enhancement may be possible, but should be the focus of an
> entire adventure and end with all sorts of strings attached.
Which does fit the general theme of B5, nothing without a price.:)
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From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 01:35:33 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: CLOWN
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In a message dated 98-04-20 15:33:22 EDT, you write:
> Yes, the main limitation with CLOWN is that only a select few GMs can
> run it without being trite, humiliating, or insulting. I honestly don't
> think that _I_ could pull it off, and I think I have a great sense of
> humour. It is quite a challenge to use CLOWN appropriately in a
> campaign. If I were to try to use them, I think I would have them as
> occasional nuicances in the heroes' lives rather than have them going
> head to head. I think the idea of the group playing practical jokes on
> the PCs and their City would be less grating than them going into actual
> group combat. I.E.; the CLOWNS have their own agenda to - say - deface
> all the statues in the park, and the PCs have the role of either
> catching them while they try to run away, or set a trap for them.
> But like I said, it takes either an all-around agreeable group, or a
> gentle touch by the GM to make it work.
>
> --
I found a fairly good way to run CLOWN... make them reluctant allies of the
hero group.
The plot ran something like this... a certain very twisted individual, Maurice
Lester (later to be realized as Mo Lester), had tried to become a member of
CLOWN, but became too violent and deadly in his tricks, and was kicked out.
Unfortunately, he was still performing his fatal pranks while claiming to be a
member of CLOWN. So, the very embarrased members of CLOWN were forced to turn
to the heros for help in capturing MoLester.
What this allowed for was plenty of antics, jokes, and pranks CLOWN could play
on the heros, but all kept neatly in the subplot, instead of the main plot.
That way, the heros were never faced with being made to feel stupid, since
they had the main plot to focus on.
'Lynx
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Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 23:07:49 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: The source of all power?/origins?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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Since people are giving ideas for the source of powers, I thought I'd give
you mine:
Superpowers were long misunderstood and mysterious to the incredulous
scientific community. Most powers are mentally controlled biochemical
abilities, especially mutant powers. The recent explosion of potent
appearances was best explained by Dr. Josef Marlon, the leading expert on
mutants. According to Dr. Marlon, there is a form of radiation that is
extremely difficult to measure (called Marlon Rays by the press). This
radiation is very prevalent, responsible for much of the 'missing' 99+
percent of the universe needed for the Big Bang-to-collapse oscillating
cycle so popular among cosmologists.
This radiation has an effect on human genetic structure. Nuclear
explosions, such as in weapon testing and stars release a great deal of
Marlon Rays, but the atmosphere blocks out stellar radiation. Thus, in
space and in the presence of nuclear testing or power plants is an exposure
risk. The primary effect of this radiation is to make future generations
of mutants probable.
It is very rare for this to manifest in the person exposed, typically their
children are the ones to show the effects. As a result, it was very very
rare for anyone to have powers until the sixties.
There are three basic types of effects from this radiation: Enhancement
(making people the peak of human norm in one or more areas), Psychic
(dowsing, precognition, etc, pulp style psychic abilities), and Mutants.
The end result of this is that countries like Russia and China have a lot of
people affected (due to radiation leaks, experimentation, etc) and all the
kids of space travellers are affected.
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@emerald.omg.org>
Subject: Fw: Cinematic "Meanwhile..."
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:07:05 +1000
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----------
> From: happyelf <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
> To: champl@emerald.omg.org
> Subject: Re: Cinematic "Meanwhile..."
> Date: Tuesday, April 21, 1998 3:10 PM
>
> One piece of advcie though- don't do it with a group who has a
> super-speedster
> with a 'bad attitude'. One of my players told me after the game that he
was
>
> really tempted to do the "runs off shot/turns up in 'studio'" gag just to
> see the look on the villains face. Doubt he would have made it past the
> guardian deathtraps anyway . .
>
>
>
>
> > Message text written by INTERNET:jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
> > >One very sucessful method i used once was the odd scene change. The
> > master villain was holding the city to hostage, with the heroes just
> > getting
> > this news at the end of scene three. The start of scene four is the gm
> > describing the villain
> > gloating/whwatever with some henchmen back at his base, finger poised
> over
> > the 'bang' button.
> > And ending with a tech comeing in and telling the villain that the
> > interuption was ready. A large
> > screen lit up in front of the villain, and on it- was the leader of the
> > hero group. The leaders player
> > reacted perfectly, starting off with 'what- how did you get this
> frequency!
> > ' and going from there.
> > Hence the scene is done from the perspective of the villains base,
> although
> > most of the action
> > invovles the hero. <
> >
> > I like that idea! Your example was basically what I had in mind--stuff
> > that doesn't hurt if the player knows it when the PC couldn't.
However,
> I
> > wasn't expecting your little twist at the end where you let the PCs
pick
> up
> > the action right there. I'll have to give that a try....
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 04:15:22 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: I'm done for now
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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<< I, for one, would be disappointed to see you leave the list, although I
have to say that I agree with your reasons. >>
Don;t misunderstand. I'm dropping out of discussions for a bit, but I'll
still be lurking, and may make an occasional post or announcement. Just don't
expect to engage me in any "discussion" (product, rules or otherwise) for a
while. I have a ton of work to do, including getting San Angelo finished up.
And thanks to Bruce Harlick, my knight in shining armor right now, we may just
get it released before we have to rename it "San Angelo 2000." <LOL>
<< This group can be obnoxious, argumentative, arrogant, opinionated, and
generally rude. (And for the record, I include myself in that description.)
>>
Hey, we're all human. I've posted tripe a time or two and am not proud of
everything I've ever posted. But time is in extremely short supply for me
right now and I simply cannot afford to spend it defending my own comments (be
they factual or opinion). It's just counterproductive at this time.
I'll be lurking. Just not posting (much). If I ever leave the list, I will
state just that and there will be no confusion about my leaving. But I don't
see that happening anytime soon.
Also, people are free to post questions to me privately. But please
understand that I won't be engaging in debate privately either. I just don't
have the time for that right now.
<< IT'S A GAME!! (Ok, for you, Mark, it's a business, but the advice is the
same.) There are too many fun things in life without getting ulcers over
stuff that isn't.>>
Which is exactly my reasoning for dropping out of the discussions for a
time.
Mark @ GRG
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: I'm done for now
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 19:58:09 +1000
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awww! now we don't have any authority figures to rail against! *j/k*
Actually, as a past obnoxious guy i pretty much figured this was a
'time' thing as well as a 'ulcer' thing. Like a bunch of weenies like us
could
drive away the great GRG guy! (note to self- save dopey compliments for
when
the snail-mailed submission gets there, as opposed to when you send it)
----------
> From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: I'm done for now
> Date: Tuesday, April 21, 1998 6:15 PM
>
> << I, for one, would be disappointed to see you leave the list, although
I
> have to say that I agree with your reasons. >>
>
> Don;t misunderstand. I'm dropping out of discussions for a bit, but
I'll
> still be lurking, and may make an occasional post or announcement. Just
don't
> expect to engage me in any "discussion" (product, rules or otherwise) for
a
> while. I have a ton of work to do, including getting San Angelo finished
up.
> And thanks to Bruce Harlick, my knight in shining armor right now, we may
just
> get it released before we have to rename it "San Angelo 2000." <LOL>
>
> << This group can be obnoxious, argumentative, arrogant, opinionated, and
> generally rude. (And for the record, I include myself in that
description.)
> >>
>
> Hey, we're all human. I've posted tripe a time or two and am not proud
of
> everything I've ever posted. But time is in extremely short supply for me
> right now and I simply cannot afford to spend it defending my own
comments (be
> they factual or opinion). It's just counterproductive at this time.
>
> I'll be lurking. Just not posting (much). If I ever leave the list, I
will
> state just that and there will be no confusion about my leaving. But I
don't
> see that happening anytime soon.
>
> Also, people are free to post questions to me privately. But please
> understand that I won't be engaging in debate privately either. I just
don't
> have the time for that right now.
>
> << IT'S A GAME!! (Ok, for you, Mark, it's a business, but the advice is
the
> same.) There are too many fun things in life without getting ulcers over
> stuff that isn't.>>
>
> Which is exactly my reasoning for dropping out of the discussions for a
> time.
>
> Mark @ GRG
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Subject: Re: Babylon 5
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 98 06:55:21 -0400
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
To: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net&>
"Hero Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Marc Seebass kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net 4/20/98 11:13 PM
>>Scott Nolan nolan@pop.erols.com 4/19/98 11:57 PM
>>>Bester also hints that Psi-Corps is trying to develop
>>>a way to record thoughts. The Vorlons had already succeeded in
>>>this, but they're a million years more advanced than human
>>>telepaths.
>>
>>Actually, the vicars can do this and the Vorlon's use them for this
>>purpose. We haven't seen the Vorlons themselves do anything along
>>these lines, though the thought that they couldn't would be rather
>>strange. :)
>>
>Actually Vorlons have demonstrated quite a bit of TK. Rember Kosh when
>Sheridan made him mad? Or Uklesh (sp) (Kosh's replacement) when Lyta
>questioned him?
I didn't say anything about Vorlons and TK, only though recording.
And you are correct, Vorlons are definently telekinetic and Mental
Illutionists/Projective Telepaths. As Sheridan points out at one
point, however, just how powerful their receptive telepathy is is
open to debate.
PAX,
John
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Subject: RE: Babylon 5
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 98 06:55:23 -0400
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
To: "Tokyo Mark" <bastet@iquest.net>
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Tokyo Mark bastet@iquest.net 4/21/98 1:21 AM
>And all things being even, once Talia's alt personality took over, Psicorp
>would certainly know all about her abilities. Whether or not she was
> merely examined or actually cut up depends on how serious you feel Bester
>was when he was yanking Garibaldi's chain.
I really think Bester was serious, he has a jar on his desk with a brain
floating in solution marked "T. Winters". That's taking a joke a little
far even for him, especially sence only other PsiCops would see it. After
the alternate personality took over, they undoubtedly knew she was given
TK by Ironheart, however sence differant personalities can have differant
psi potentials (The Corps Is Mother, The Corps Is Father), it is posible
those abilities were washed by the distruction of Talia's true self.
>I think to a degree they are focusing more on the teeps, so some new
>abilities have popped up. Teeps have been serious characters, but not in
>stories that focused on them using their abilities beyond the basics.
I agree totally with this. Like I said, "it wasn't needed before but
was always there" stuff.
>I had the impression the Mindshredder was someone who was highly skilled
>or talented in breaking down a teeps defenses and getting in. They didn't
>seem to expect he could kill a mundane like that, but he did pose some
>sort of threat to teeps. Perhaps attacks that only work v. teeps since
>they are already more receptive once defenses are down.
I tend to agree. Also, any telepath at least would appear to be able to
telepathically injure another telepath, so that's consistant. This is
just my opinion, based on the time Lyta scanned a Centauri teep. She
commented "Give it up or I'll burn every neuron you've got." Sence there
is no mention or reports of rogue P12 running around getting back to the
station (Bester is suprised at how strong she is over two season's later),
this seems to be within the capacity of a P5.
>> Actually, the vicars can do this and the Vorlon's use them for this
>> purpose. We haven't seen the Vorlons themselves do anything along
>>these lines, though the thought that they couldn't would be rather
>> strange. :)
>
>I half way suspect the Vorlons might have created Vicars. It has not
>seemed like EarthGov has the technology to create Vicars, then seem to
>have problems with cybernetics in general beyond the basic prosthetics.
_Most_ cybernetic experiments were failures. The vicars were one of the
few exceptions. There some notes on this from jms on the Lurker's Guide.
>> I do agree that enhancement may be possible, but should be the focus of an
>> entire adventure and end with all sorts of strings attached.
>
>Which does fit the general theme of B5, nothing without a price.:)
Absolutely!
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: shadowfax/archieves
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 05:20:24 -0700
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Kirby Jones [cyprimus@swbell.net] asks:
>Does anyone know if thier is an archieve for this list, or does anyone
>have a copy of a character that was sent to the list several years age
>by the name of shadowfax?
There's no official archive, but I've been here for at least ten years,
and have copies of some of the more interesting bits. Luckily, Shadowfax
is one that I kept.
Dave Mattingly
--
S H A D O W F A X
stat: value: cost:
STR 25 15 .
DEX 33 69 Skills & such:
CON 35 50 5 Acrobatics 17-
BODY 16 12 5 Breakfall 17-
INT 24 14 3 Paramedic 14-
EGO 18 16 3 Forensic Medicine 14-
PRE 38 28 3 SS: Biology 14-
COM 18 4 5 Shadowing 12-
PD 25 20 7 Stealth 19-
ED 25 18 7 Streetwise 19-
SPD 9 47 7 Interogation 19-
REC 15 6 3 Concealment 14-
END 80 5 3 Sleight of Hand 16-
STUN 65 18 3 Bribery 16-
---- 3 High Society 16-
STATS * 322 5 Seduction 17-
14 Languages (Hindi-N), Indus(4), English
(4), French(3), Arabic(3)
10 Wealth
Followers:
35 32 Misc. Agent-type followers
120 8 "Shadowdemons" posted below 505 pts each
"Nethershadow" EC
cost: active: Power:
40 Nethershadow EC
40 80 Darkness vs sights, hearings, radio, & smell.(pers.imm)
40* 90 Teleportation (4floats, 16x Noncombat, 25")
40*+ 100 X-Dim movement (mucho mass!, Anywhere in
Nethershadow
plane & perhaps Earth plane)
40+ 90 Images (sight only, only of shadows, w/ loads PER neg's
40+ 80 Clairesentience (sight & hearing from N-plane to any
dark area in Earth plane
40+ 90 Mental illusion damage field, horrors of N-plane
---
280 pts in EC
Other abilities:
5 5 PDr, 5 EDr
20 Regeneration
6 10 pts Mental def
18 Combat Sense
30 Danger Sense
10 10 pts Power Def
10 Armor (IIF, act on 13-), 5 PD, 5 ED
8 + 5 REC^
8 + 10 STR^
8 + 20 END^
4 + 2" Running
3 + 3" Swimming
5 5 pts lack of Waekness
30 Various Martial Manuvuers (sp?!)
12 + 3 DC's w/ MA's
10 + 2 MA levels
12 + 6 levels w/ PRE Attacks
3 + 1 w/ Perception
23 Mind link w/ 8 demons, any place/plane
^ (-1/4, Only in Netherplane)
+ (-1/4, Ineffective vs Religious/Holy objects/People (Nuns etc.))
* (-1/4 Only to/from areas of Darkness)
--
Shadownasties
STR 35 25 Demon Powers EC
DEX 24 40 20 Demon Powers
CON 29 38 25 Flight (20" 2x Noncombat)
BODY 20 20 20 Desolid
INT 5 20 Shapeshift
EGO 13 6 40 Invis Hearing & Smell (always on)
PRE 35 25 30 X-Dim Movement
COM Total in EC =155
PD 21 14
ED 15 9 Demonic Defenses EC
SPD 5 16 15 D. Def. EC cost
REC 15 6 15 Armor 5PD,5ED
END 60 2 15 Full LS
STUN 60 7 15 HKA, 4d6 w/ STR
---- Total in EC =60
198
Other abilities:
5 UV Vision
20 N-ray (not vs Souls)
12 12 pts Power Def.
7 10 pts Mental Def.
5 1 level of Stretching
23 Mind link w/ fax & other nasties
___
293 * of Powers
Skills:
1 Familiarity w/ Magic Skill 8-
3 Mimicry (Shape, not sound) 11-
13 Disguise(Shape, " " ) 16-
11 Shadowing 15-
3 Stealth 14-
6 +2 w/ Perception
3 Bump of Direction
________________________________________________________
Shadow nasty disads ARE KNOWN TO INCLUDE:
_BUT NOT LIMITED TO_!
Loyal to Shadowfax (questionable)
2x fx from light
Scared of light
Vuln & Suscept to holy objects
Mute
Cannot Read
DF: looks 2-dimensional, w/ bright red eyes!
Concealable w/effort, BAAAAaaddD Reaction
et cetera
There is more, but I've been typing over an hour, so Puppetmaster &
Sh-fax's history, background, et cetera, will have to wait.
Toodles!
"Richard L. Corcoran"
<bam8rlc@cabell.vcu.edu>
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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 05:53:34 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Involuntary Move-Through
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 09:07 PM 4/20/1998 -0600, A Kirkland wrote:
>>>How do you figure the damage for this? Would it be like a move-through,
>>>except without any STR damage added in (this means that his velocity would
>>>be divided by 3)? Or should his STR count? Or is his velocity irrelevant,
>>>and he takes damage just as if he had been knocked back into a wall? I
>>>think the last one is probably correct, but I thought I'd check to see if
>>>velocity should be a factor.
>>
>> I'd go with your first choice, myself. His movement is intentional and
>>technically "controlled" (with thrust behind it rather than just momentum),
>>but he's not putting any STR into it.
>
>or you could borrow the Mass as Str concept from the alternate movement
>rules that were posted a while back. So Villianman would take
> (STR to lift Vm)/5 + velocity/3,
>limited by the Def+Bod (in this case just the def) of the obstacle.
I think that would probably work.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 05:55:53 -0700
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Looking good!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 08:38 PM 4/20/1998 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>Since 'Anime Hero' was such a hot topic a few days ago, I thought I'd
>passs along this comment from Steve Peterson about my Kazei Five
>manuscript: "I glanced at a few sections, and it looks good to me.".
>
>Made my day just a bit brighter!
OK, now I'm jealous. I sent in my First Draft from TUSV a couple of
weeks before you sent yours, and the last I heard (a week ago) Steve hadn't
had a chance to even glance at it yet. (Though Bruce has been through it,
and made the comment that it looks really good... I forget, and have lost,
the actual wording he used.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:31:46 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Favorite Adventures?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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How about describing some of your favorite adventures (as player or GM) in
one or two paragraphs? What made it more interesting than usual? Maybe
these little adventure synopses could provide seeds for the GMs (like me)
on this list.
I tried this last week and didn't get a single response, so I'm hoping it
was overlooked or never received. If I don't get any responses this time,
I guess I'll take that as my cue to drop this thread.
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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:54:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Buggle Gum Crisis- Boomers
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
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If anyone here is familiar with the Bubble Gum Crisis Anime/RPG,
you'd know what a Bommer is. Frankly, all I know about them is that
they're huge, cybernetic, and mean.
Anyone here know anything about Boomers? Any interesting
info-sites on the web? Since the Bubblegum Crisis RPG is 'Fuzion
Powered', does that mean the stats can be translated from BGC-RPG to HERO?
Has anyone all ready tried this?
-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+-
"Fools are my theme, let satire be my song."
-Lord Byron; English Bards and Scotch Reviewers. Line 6.
-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-
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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:18:52 -0400
From: Justin Calvaneso <jcalvaneso@raptor.com>
Organization: Raptor Systems
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Cinematic "Meanwhile..."
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GoldRushG wrote:
> I have used a similar technique when introducing a new scenario, except I
> actually had the *players* play the NPCs. For example, if the PCs are going to
> find four dead bodies in *their* first scene, I may run a "mysterious multiple
> homicide" as a prologue, in which the players themselves play the NPCs who are
> killed.
I use this technique on occasion. Most recently in a Vampire: the Masquerade
game. I started the session by handing out NPC's and bios. The players each played
an ametuer vampire hunter. One member of the group was a plant, a ghoul who's job
it was to lead the PC's to their dooms, and who would be 'rewarded' with
immortality shortly after. The ghoul betrayed the ghoul betrayed the party, the
ghoul's master betrayed him, and everybody ended up as a lunch to their own hunger
frenzied vampire PC's. I'll say that it worked *very* well, and was some of the
best roleplaying I'd seen out of that group. I recomend this to anyone looking for
a one session change of pace in their game. Players could be agents attempting to
achieve some goal, only to be busted by their own heroes. It's also a nice way to
bridge long gaps between downtime.
---
Justin Calvaneso Raptor Systems, Inc.
Test Lab Technician a division of Axent Technologies
jcalvaneso@raptor.com 266 Second Avenue
(781) 530-2362 Waltham, MA 02154
---
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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:41:01 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Favorite Adventures?
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At 02:56 PM 4/21/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Favorite Adventures?
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>
>How about describing some of your favorite adventures (as player or GM) in
>one or two paragraphs? What made it more interesting than usual? Maybe
>these little adventure synopses could provide seeds for the GMs (like me)
>on this list.
There's only one adventure that I've had as GM which has been so
successful that I've run it twice (with two different groups). This is one
where a villain with gravity control decides to steal the moon so he can
give it to his girlfriend. It was a straightforward game that ran like a
single issue of a Silver Age comic, and went over very well both times.
(The villain and the scenario will almost definitely be in the NW
sourcebook, though if you prefer you could always transfer this idea to
Foxbat or some other loon.)
The only other truly memorable was one where Doctor Destroyer decided
that Portland would make a good testing ground for the clones he'd made
from fossilized dinosaur DNA. For the first couple of sessions we knew he
and his cronies were in town, but couldn't even make a definite connection
between his presence and that of the T-Rexes. These days the best CU
villain for this would probably be Malachite, and a lot of stuff would be
borrowed from Jurassic Park (which hadn't been written let alone filmed
when the scenario was run).
>I tried this last week and didn't get a single response, so I'm hoping it
>was overlooked or never received. If I don't get any responses this time,
>I guess I'll take that as my cue to drop this thread.
Hm, I don't remember seeing it (and I was forced to destroy a lot of my
older messages earlier this morning, so I can't go check). Maybe something
along that line is what went wrong.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 13:25:51 -0500 (CDT)
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Favorite Adventures?
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David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> writes:
>
> How about describing some of your favorite adventures (as player or GM) in
> one or two paragraphs? What made it more interesting than usual? Maybe
> these little adventure synopses could provide seeds for the GMs (like me)
> on this list.
>
I've run a 'rescue the dragon from the evil prince' scenario a couple of times
as a twist on the 'rescue the princess from the evil dragon'. This was a
superhero adventure, not a Fantasy Hero one. In this case, the dragon had been trapped in our dimension and forced into human form by an arms merchant.
The characters had to battle their way into the arms merchants castle and
find the device that would let the dragon return to its native form and
go back to its own world.
> I tried this last week and didn't get a single response, so I'm hoping it
> was overlooked or never received. If I don't get any responses this time,
> I guess I'll take that as my cue to drop this thread.
>
Yeah, I only got one response to my James Bond scenarios question too.
Seems the list is more concerned with mechanics questions than anything else.
Curt
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From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: RE: Babylon 5, offtopic q.
To: champ-l@omg.org (champions listserv)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:27:14 -0400 (EDT)
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I know this is about 37 miles off-topic but since we're
discusiing Babylon 5...
Does anyone know whether the bone crests on the Membari
or headpieces that they wear, or bones that are physucally
attached to their skulls? It looks like the former to
me, but I was told the latter by someone...
-Eric
PS - I bet you dollars to donuts that Garibaldi dies before
the season is over (mabe taking Bester out with him).
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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:40:47 -0400
To: champ-l@omg.org (champions listserv)
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: RE: Babylon 5, offtopic q.
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At 03:27 PM 4/21/98 -0400, Eric Burns wrote:
>I know this is about 37 miles off-topic but since we're
>discusiing Babylon 5...
>
>Does anyone know whether the bone crests on the Membari
>or headpieces that they wear, or bones that are physucally
>attached to their skulls? It looks like the former to
>me, but I was told the latter by someone...
It's the latter, but I agree that it looks like the former.
>-Eric
>
>PS - I bet you dollars to donuts that Garibaldi dies before
>the season is over (mabe taking Bester out with him).
No bet. I agree.
Scott
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"He's that most dangerous of animals - a clever sheep."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Scott C. Nolan
nolan@erols.com
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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:15:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Favorite Adventures?
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> > I tried this last week and didn't get a single response, so I'm hoping it
> > was overlooked or never received. If I don't get any responses this time,
> > I guess I'll take that as my cue to drop this thread.
> >
>
> Yeah, I only got one response to my James Bond scenarios question too.
> Seems the list is more concerned with mechanics questions than anything else.
You know, that's funny. I recall seeing quite a few "favorite
adventure/scenario" posts over the last week.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:39:35 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Favorite Adventures?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by "Tim R. Gilberg"
> You know, that's funny. I recall seeing quite a few "favorite
adventure/scenario" posts over the last week.<
Uh oh...could there be a problem somewhere? I know there were messages for
"Favorite Moment" and "Favorite published NPCs", but I never saw any
responses to the "Favorite Adventure/Campaign Theme" topic.
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Babylon 5
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:47:21 -0400
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: John P Weatherman [SMTP:asahoshi@nr.infi.net]
> Sent: Monday, April 20, 1998 5:26 PM
> To: John and Ron Prins; Hero Mailing List
> Subject: RE: Babylon 5
>
> though. The Vorlons seeded telepathy in humans, and were able to augment
> Lyta to a strong P12 or possibly P13, but she never undergoes any testing
> to know for sure. At any rate, these are the only know exceptions.
>
>
Lyta has alternately been rated P15 (by gamemakers speaking with Babylonian
Productions) and _Q5_ (by JMS himself. The "Q", he said, meant that she was
on an entirely different scale with different abilities)
> it definantly also limits breadth. Only P12s can manage killing attacks,
> only P10s mental transforms. It's unclear where clairvoyance falls, but
> it also appears to be very high end (P10-P12).
>
>
A number of teeps of unknown power have caused people to think that they
were on fire. Since high power teeps are so rare, they couldn't have all
been P10+. IIRC, this once had lethal results.
> TK results in madness sooner or later, or disection if the Corps finds
> out.
> Mind Scan can only be applied to other teeps, and then only if their in
> relitive isolation or in very close proximity.
>
>
Teeps have used Mind Scan to find and track normals. The ep name escapes
me, but its the one where Geribaldi is smuggling the anti-teep virus into
B5.
On the up side, teeps in B5 can add their powers to generate a higher level
of ability than any one individual.
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Subject: RE: Babylon 5
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 98 17:47:59 -0400
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
To: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com&>
"Hero Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Goode, Jason JGoode@medrad.com 4/21/98 4:47 PM
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>Lyta has alternately been rated P15 (by gamemakers speaking with Babylonian
>Productions) and _Q5_ (by JMS himself. The "Q", he said, meant that she was
>on an entirely different scale with different abilities)
I hadn't heard this one, but either approach seems very reasonable.
>> it definantly also limits breadth. Only P12s can manage killing attacks,
>> only P10s mental transforms. It's unclear where clairvoyance falls, but
>> it also appears to be very high end (P10-P12).
>>
>>
>A number of teeps of unknown power have caused people to think that they
>were on fire. Since high power teeps are so rare, they couldn't have all
>been P10+. IIRC, this once had lethal results.
The only instance I know of this has been groups working in concert. As
you
mentioned, the effects in such a case are as for a stonger teep. Get 4 or
5 P4-6s ( a reasonable range for Byron's average follower ) and you can
get
P10+ results easy, especially sense that group was pointed out as being
more
fully integrated (they never shielded against each other suposedly, though
there is some contrary evidence).
>> TK results in madness sooner or later, or disection if the Corps finds
>> out.
>> Mind Scan can only be applied to other teeps, and then only if their in
>> relitive isolation or in very close proximity.
>>
>>
>Teeps have used Mind Scan to find and track normals. The ep name escapes
>me, but its the one where Geribaldi is smuggling the anti-teep virus into
>B5.
Actually, they knew where to start looking when they scanned Geribaldi at
the beginning of the vent chase scene. Once they put whole all in the
duct, it wouldn't be too hard to get LOS and Geribaldi had everyone
thinking
the same thing, and they were spotted in one more firefight. Also, they
couldn't track them, remember they ended up in Brown sector, not the area
Geribaldi brought them out at.
>On the up side, teeps in B5 can add their powers to generate a higher level
>of ability than any one individual.
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Subject: RE: Babylon 5, offtopic q.
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 98 17:48:01 -0400
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
To: "Eric Burns" <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu&>
"champions listserv" <champ-l@omg.org>
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Eric Burns burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu 4/21/98 3:27 PM
>I know this is about 37 miles off-topic but since we're
>discusiing Babylon 5...
>
>Does anyone know whether the bone crests on the Membari
>or headpieces that they wear, or bones that are physucally
>attached to their skulls? It looks like the former to
>me, but I was told the latter by someone...
The bones are their skulls, it's not a removable hat.
>PS - I bet you dollars to donuts that Garibaldi dies before
>the season is over (mabe taking Bester out with him).
If you haven't heard anything about Sleeping in the Light,
SPOILER ahead... :)
The end of the season sees the distruction of Bab5 and is
20 years in the future (the projected end of Sheridan's
life). I predict Delinn will be the only main character
to get out alive (well, Captain Lockley (sic) might too,
but that's about it).
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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:20:23 -0700
To: "champions listserv" <champ-l@omg.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Babylon 5, offtopic q.
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At 05:48 PM 4/21/1998 -0400, John P Weatherman wrote:
>If you haven't heard anything about Sleeping in the Light,
>SPOILER ahead... :)
And more spoilers in effect!
>The end of the season sees the distruction of Bab5 and is
>20 years in the future (the projected end of Sheridan's
>life). I predict Delinn will be the only main character
>to get out alive (well, Captain Lockley (sic) might too,
>but that's about it).
Delenn and Lochley might not even be there; in fact, in Delenn's case
it's quite likely. The same could be true of any other character on the
series. Remember, the easiest way to block a blow is to not be there when
it happens. We already know that Londo will have been dead for three or
four years, and Vir on the throne (re: War Without End, Part II). For that
matter, it might very well be the Alliance itself that destroys the
station, after trapping a bunch of high-ranking Drakh on board.
As JMS has said repeatedly, it's not so helpful to know a snippet of the
future if you don't know the context. We knew almost from the beginning
that G'Kar and Londo would kill each other (from the latter's dream),
before WWE2 I would never have guessed the G'Kar killed Londo at the
latter's own request.
This (to bring the topic back around to something a little more on
topic) is a good example of how Precognition can be used in a game. Give
just enough so the character can make some use of it when the time is
right, but not before.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:33:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Favorite Adventures?
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> > You know, that's funny. I recall seeing quite a few "favorite
> adventure/scenario" posts over the last week.<
>
> Uh oh...could there be a problem somewhere? I know there were messages for
> "Favorite Moment" and "Favorite published NPCs", but I never saw any
> responses to the "Favorite Adventure/Campaign Theme" topic.
The problem is one of communication. I, like many others, jumped
over the post as part of the Favorit Moment thing. Restate your goals and
put a big: NEW TOPIC! in the subject line.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:40:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Looking good!
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On Tue, 21 Apr 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 08:38 PM 4/20/1998 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> >Since 'Anime Hero' was such a hot topic a few days ago, I thought I'd
> >passs along this comment from Steve Peterson about my Kazei Five
> >manuscript: "I glanced at a few sections, and it looks good to me.".
> >
> >Made my day just a bit brighter!
>
> OK, now I'm jealous. I sent in my First Draft from TUSV a couple of
> weeks before you sent yours, and the last I heard (a week ago) Steve hadn't
> had a chance to even glance at it yet. (Though Bruce has been through it,
> and made the comment that it looks really good... I forget, and have lost,
> the actual wording he used.)
Obviously my karma is better than yours (or may be my home has better Feng
Shui?).
Apparently Bruce just got it Monday and now has to find me a editor.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:51:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Reply-To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Buggle Gum Crisis- Boomers
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On Tue, 21 Apr 1998, Jason Sullivan wrote:
> If anyone here is familiar with the Bubble Gum Crisis Anime/RPG,
> you'd know what a Bommer is. Frankly, all I know about them is that
> they're huge, cybernetic, and mean.
The proper term for a 'Boomer' would be 'cyberdroid'. In BGC, they are a
mechanical lifeform, capable of independent thought (in the more advanced
versions). Boomers a shown being used for almost everything, including
simple labor, construction, security, as waiters, gold caddys, boxing
instructors etc. There are even 'pleasure boomers' although these are
much more organic in nature.
> Anyone here know anything about Boomers? Any interesting
> info-sites on the web? Since the Bubblegum Crisis RPG is 'Fuzion
> Powered', does that mean the stats can be translated from BGC-RPG to HERO?
> Has anyone all ready tried this?
Translating BGC Fuzion into Hero can be done, but results in some pretty
wierd numbers. Largo, for example, ends up with a 70 STR (a bit high) and
a 50+ DEF.
I have created some cyberdroids for use in my Kazei Five game, but they
aren't quite like Boomers. A Boomer should be able to take Stun and be
Stunned, since they are virtually alive, mine are pure automatons.
Regardless how you build them, though, a Combat Boomer will probably be
400-500 points, with a mouth cannon capable of destroying a large truck in
a single shot (12-14d6), armor capable of withstanding concentrated 10mm
autorifle fire (DEF 10-13) and (if it takes Stun) a lot of Damage
Reduction. Of, and a lot of Body two. And a level or two of Density
Increase.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Favorite Adventures?
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:01:20 +1000
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> David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> writes:
> >
> > How about describing some of your favorite adventures (as player or GM)
in
> > one or two paragraphs? What made it more interesting than usual?
Maybe
> > these little adventure synopses could provide seeds for the GMs (like
me)
> > on this list.
> >
>
> I've run a 'rescue the dragon from the evil prince' scenario a couple of
times
> as a twist on the 'rescue the princess from the evil dragon'. This was a
> superhero adventure, not a Fantasy Hero one. In this case, the dragon
had been trapped in our dimension and forced into human form by an arms
merchant.
> The characters had to battle their way into the arms merchants castle and
> find the device that would let the dragon return to its native form and
> go back to its own world.
>
Ohh, arms merchants. . . my vavorite c's and npc's. i have heaps of
scenarois based around this sort of idea- like a bunch of 'progenitors'
turning up to 'harvest' supers for the 'ultimate battle' , claiming the
roles of the progenetors but really being sneaky interdimensional
maerchants looking
for battle-slaves. Then there's the 'xploters' who run around trying to
harness
certain odd concepts as weapons. By odd concepts i mean things like the
fact that
a superhero is bound to turn up after a maiden screams 'help! isn't there
anyone out there?' in certain realities, as well as objects which are used
in one way but would
make great weapons another, ect. .
> > I tried this last week and didn't get a single response, so I'm hoping
it
> > was overlooked or never received. If I don't get any responses this
time,
> > I guess I'll take that as my cue to drop this thread.
> >
>
> Yeah, I only got one response to my James Bond scenarios question too.
> Seems the list is more concerned with mechanics questions than anything
else.
>
> Curt
yeah, and not ONE person replied to my 'hand up if you think i'm a genius'
post.
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Favorite Adventures?
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:11:41 +1000
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> How about describing some of your favorite adventures (as player or GM)
in
> one or two paragraphs? What made it more interesting than usual? Maybe
> these little adventure synopses could provide seeds for the GMs (like me)
> on this list.
>
Well, one of my favorite scenario (which started as a campaign)
was the idea of the 'megalo-virus' which makes supers manifest a
split personality and adotp secondary, villainous identies, with which
they attempt to take over the world.
> I tried this last week and didn't get a single response, so I'm hoping it
> was overlooked or never received. If I don't get any responses this
time,
> I guess I'll take that as my cue to drop this thread.
Hey! i was busy reading the other 'favorite' thread. plus, i'm just a
sheep, and
no-one else wuz doing it! *l*
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Favorite Adventures?
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:11:41 +1000
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> How about describing some of your favorite adventures (as player or GM)
in
> one or two paragraphs? What made it more interesting than usual? Maybe
> these little adventure synopses could provide seeds for the GMs (like me)
> on this list.
>
Well, one of my favorite scenario (which started as a campaign)
was the idea of the 'megalo-virus' which makes supers manifest a
split personality and adotp secondary, villainous identies, with which
they attempt to take over the world.
> I tried this last week and didn't get a single response, so I'm hoping it
> was overlooked or never received. If I don't get any responses this
time,
> I guess I'll take that as my cue to drop this thread.
Hey! i was busy reading the other 'favorite' thread. plus, i'm just a
sheep, and
no-one else wuz doing it! *l*
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From: Doc Tough <DocTough@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:25:37 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Test for Echo...Sorry
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I simply haven't received any postings recently...what's up?
Doc Tough@aol.com
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From: "Robert" <baron@stlnet.com>
To: "Champs" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: I'm not (Re: I'm done for now)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:48:07 -0500
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-----Original Message-----
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Monday, April 20, 1998 4:35 PM
Subject: I'm done for now
><< Really, this is not affecting my life this much. Take it easy. >>
>
> Take it easy? That's an interesting comment. I think I will pass on
replying
>to it directly, considering the general atmosphere and collective "tone" of
>most of the replies to my comments on this list.
>
Yep... yer blowin' this oughta proportion.
><< And as for the poison dart, there are SEVERAL different ways of doing
that
>as well and I don't take the BBB as gospel either.>>
>
> Oh well. Some people wanted me to post specific printed rules form the
book
>to support my various points of view through these discussions, and now
>someone doesn't give a fart about the printed examples.
>
Gee... I have that much power? Cool... I think I'll take over the world
next.
> If I have an opinion it's "wrong." The fact that I'm a publisher is
>irrelevant in all cases and makes me arrogant. I'm asked to post official
>rulings and get flamed when I don't and flamed when I do. I am asked to
>support my opiniuons with published examples and then am told that they
don't
>matter.
>
Your opinion is just that, an opinion. By its very nature it cannot be wrong
because it is "right" for you. We have two differing opinions. At no point,
IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM, did I say that you were arrogant nor did I say
that your opinion "doesn't matter". I can't believe I'm having this
conversation. I did NOT flame you which would involve a personal attack. I
am also not going to cut you any slack. Support your reasons for choosing
NND. You did. I counterpointed them. You may counterpoint mine as well.
Debate is a process by which differing opinions are heard and supported with
various arguments of logic. Your logic was questioned, not your honor,
intelligence, worth, or value as a human being or as a member of this list.
><< Mark, don't get testy and don't think I am handing crap down from on
high.
>I resent the implication. You and I have argued a point. Don't make it
>personal or that just shows immaturity.... >>
>
> I give up. I'm wasting my time posting to this list it seems. It's
sabatical
>time.
>
Bye... If you really want to run off in a huff at the first sign of someone
questioning your logic, thats your decision. Thats a damn shame to boot. If
you want to interact with your customers and people who want to give input
into your product to make it better and more saleable product. If you want
to engage in conversation with people who have different interpretations and
learn from them and then teach them what you know to help them, this is the
place for you. If not....thats a damn shame.... and bye.
Robert Kemp
>
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From: "WG Rowland" <rowland@cts.com>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Hello to the group..
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 00:47:27 -0700
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Just wanted to send out my "Hello" to the group as a new list member.
Don't know if it's appropriate or not, as I don't know if this is a small,
informal list or something larger. Either way, I've been a fan of Hero
system games for many years, and was delighted to find this list.. I
haven't been able to do any role-playing in quite some time, but I'm still
interested.. I'm also a programmer and follower of the online RPG market
that seems to be coming up. I personally think the Hero system, or some
derivative thereof would be the perfect system for an online RPG.. But
that's off topic..
Anyway, to all, hello.
WG Rowland
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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 06:26:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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Subject: Test
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Test
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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:26:46 -0500
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Redbow Antiques
To: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Buggle Gum Crisis- Boomers
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Jason Sullivan wrote:
> If anyone here is familiar with the Bubble Gum Crisis Anime/RPG,
> you'd know what a Bommer is. Frankly, all I know about them is that
> they're huge, cybernetic, and mean.
> Anyone here know anything about Boomers? Any interesting
> info-sites on the web? Since the Bubblegum Crisis RPG is 'Fuzion
> Powered', does that mean the stats can be translated from BGC-RPG to HERO?
> Has anyone all ready tried this?
>
I have started this, but haven't had a chance to complete the conversion right
ups. Looking at how Fuzion and Hero explains their conversion leads you to believe
that it is easy, but when I used their numbers I came up with some outrageous
numbers.
Characteristics are easy to convert, the problem comes with Body, Damage, and
Armor. I finally figured out the conversion formula for them and if interested I
will send it to you.
Huge BGC Fan
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Hello to the group..
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:01:04 +1000
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>
> Just wanted to send out my "Hello" to the group as a new list member.
> Don't know if it's appropriate or not, as I don't know if this is a
small,
> informal list or something larger. Either way, I've been a fan of Hero
> system games for many years, and was delighted to find this list.. I
> haven't been able to do any role-playing in quite some time, but I'm
still
> interested.. I'm also a programmer and follower of the online RPG market
> that seems to be coming up. I personally think the Hero system, or some
> derivative thereof would be the perfect system for an online RPG.. But
> that's off topic..
> Anyway, to all, hello.
>
> WG Rowland
>
Well since i introdiced myself by sending everyone a 60+ page
doccument and talking in capitals, i think your post is quite reasonable
*l*.
The list is rather large, with several major posters, expect quite a few
messages.
I don't think talk of online games is off topic, i tend to use this list as
a dicussion for certain 'general' concepts which seems fitting since HERO
involves many genres and
styles. Frankly a lot of people i think would prefer talk like that to
another wallbang
about game math. I think HERO-type mechanics would make a very interesting
text-based online game- a text description being a fair analogy of a
special effect concept- though current graphical interfaces don't handle
multigeneric approaches very well and even in a defined genre, hero has far
more variety of characters than
most games. I tend to think that a hero-style system is bound to be the
type of mechanics behind future online games, although for the moment (and
some time to come) games wil be programmed from their genre's point of
view, and not much else.
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From: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Hello to the group..
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:12:04 -0500
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WG Rowland [SMTP:rowland@cts.com] Writes:
> Just wanted to send out my "Hello" to the group as a new
list member.
>Don't know if it's appropriate or not, as I don't know if this
is a small,
>informal list or something larger.
In-between.
>Either way, I've been a fan of Hero
>system games for many years, and was delighted to find this
list.. I
>haven't been able to do any role-playing in quite some time,
but I'm still
>interested.. I'm also a programmer and follower of the online
RPG market
>that seems to be coming up. I personally think the Hero
system, or some
>derivative thereof would be the perfect system for an online
RPG.. But
>that's off topic..
> Anyway, to all, hello.
Hello!
>WG Rowland
You wouldn't happen to know of any Champions gamers in the
Northern Virginia area would you? Its been like pulling teeth trying to
find any! I want to play in/run a game, but I've got no players yet! ;_;
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
- Joan of Arc's .sig
Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:33:54 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Champions Presents #1
Cc: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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I can't remember the name of the adventure, but I'm going to run the
time-travel adventure in Champions Presents #1 this weekend. I haven't
read it thoroughly yet, but any advice or warnings from people who have run
this?
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:55:48 -0500 (CDT)
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions Presents #1
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David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> writes:
>
> I can't remember the name of the adventure, but I'm going to run the
> time-travel adventure in Champions Presents #1 this weekend. I haven't
> read it thoroughly yet, but any advice or warnings from people who have run
> this?
>
Yeah, read it thoroughly before hand. (grin)
I think the title is "Menace Out of Time". If I remember properly,
this scenario had a really complicated / counter-intuitive theory of how
time-travel worked which was required in order to make the plot work.
Other than that, it looked like a pretty entertaining scenario.
Let us know how it turns out.
I've run a couple of time travel scenarios. I always felt like giving a
warning upfront: "This is how time travel works with *this* time machine.
Other time machines may work differently. "
Curt
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Champions Presents #1
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 02:39:11 +1000
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>
> I can't remember the name of the adventure, but I'm going to run the
> time-travel adventure in Champions Presents #1 this weekend. I haven't
> read it thoroughly yet, but any advice or warnings from people who have
run
> this?
um, book up on your spookyness. the ' near past' episode tends to throw the
scenaroi unless you playthe demonic threat with some teeth. oh, and devote
a
few sessions to each period. better that way.
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From: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Time Travel
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:09:21 -0500
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>I think the title is "Menace Out of Time". If I remember
properly,
>this scenario had a really complicated / counter-intuitive
theory of how
>time-travel worked which was required in order to make the plot
work.
>Other than that, it looked like a pretty entertaining scenario.
How weird was it?
>Let us know how it turns out.
Yes please!
>I've run a couple of time travel scenarios. I always felt like
giving a
>warning upfront: "This is how time travel works with *this*
time machine.
>Other time machines may work differently. "
I have such things work consistently within a game world.
PCs can get KS: Temporal Mechanics/Theory, etc.
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
- Joan of Arc's .sig
Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
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From: "WG Rowland" <rowland@cts.com>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Generic reply to everyone who replied.
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:16:34 -0700
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Since two people asked. I'm also from Southern California (San Diego, as
south as you can get, just about), and haven't played an RPG since I moved
down here (over 2.5 years or more now).. No help for gamers in Virginia....
Topic 2: Anyone here played Ultima Online? There is a perfect example of
a point system gone wrong. Sorry to an UO fans out there, but Putting an
upper limit on where you can go in that game really deadens the experience.
You run around a week or two, do things, and then realize there's nowhere to
go from here.
As for my own vision of the perfect online RPG (something I someday hope to
build).. You design a modular core (kind of an RPG in code) that you can
attatch multiple engines and games to. So you could use the same character
in a text base rpg as you could in, say, a Quake style 3d game. And they
would act proportionately the same in regards to other characters. You also
have modules you can add in/take out that allow you to add
skills/abilities/powers that fit to the particular genre...
And Finally..
If there are any games going on in the San Diego area, especially Fantasy
Hero or Champions campaigns, I'd love to hear about them..
WG Rowland
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Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "David Nasset" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Stupid Heroes (was The Average man...)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:26:12 -0700
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----------
> From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
<snip>
> At 12:32 AM 4/15/1998 -0700, Chad Riley wrote:
> >Not to get completely off the subject but this thread title reminds me
of
> one of
> >our fav. Silly supers NORMAL MAN! He was completely normal except that
he
> had a
> >booming voice and a PRE of 50. He made many low end villains wet their
> pants and
> >he was fearless he'd run into burning buildings to save a lady's potted
> >plant......
> >
> >Other Stupid heroes were:
<snip>
A friend of mine had Masoman, the ultimate masochist. He became more
powerful the more you hurt him.
One I did once for a silly game was The Grocer. He fought for, "Truth,
Justice, and preventing people from squeezing the Charmin." He had Armor in
the form of a leather apron, and a mystical grocery bag out of which he
could pull _anything_. The last time I saw him, he was trying to pull an
octopus launcher out of the bag, in order to more accurately throw his
octopus Entangle. Side effects of a failed roll varied, but in this case a
tentacle came out of the bag and dragged him into it.:)
Filksinger
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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:47:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RPGers in Oklahoma?
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Well, I'm leaving the state of Illinois come this July to attend
Grad School at the University of Oklahoma. Does anyone know of the gaming
scene in that area? Norman games would be great, Oklahoma City is OK too.
(Only about 20 min away.)
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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From: "David Nasset" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Which published villains do you use?
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:54:27 -0700
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> From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>
> I'm just curious, which published villains make regular appearances in
your
> campaigns? I assume Viper is probably a mainstay in the majority of
> campaigns, but how about groups like Zodiac or solo villains like Dark
> Seraph (just to throw out some names)? My campaign has just started so I
> haven't pinned down the regulars yet, but in past campaigns Viper and
Demon
> were the two most regularly featured villain organizations, and Terror,
> Inc. was also a big player.
I used Dr. McQuark frequently in my last face to face superhero game, as
well as the Blood. My wife's character, in fact, discovered that she was a
"missing" Blood member, allowing her to meet her long lost grandmother
(Sala) and her other relatives. Affrighter has been a particular worry for
her, as she has a rather large number of children. Seems she just
discovered that she has an unconscious ability to influence the operation
of people's bodies over time, especially the reproductive system (which is
why she is such a good OB-GYN), and she loves children... so, by the time
her character was 30, she had 16, all in pairs or triplets.
Other than that, I have used bits and pieces here and there, but not much
on a regular basis.
Filksinger
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From: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Hello to the group..
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:15:32 -0500
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>Keith,
>I live In Montgomery County, MD, and Work in Crystal City, VA.
Not far!
>I might be interested in playing in a game (I am sorta GM'ed
out right
>now, having done it for the past eight years, with a few
breaks) in
>Northern VA, depending on where.
>Where are you located?
I live just south of the Wilson bridge (~10-15 min from Crystal
City)
and I work in Reston (not too far from Montgomery County).
I'd be willing to run, but I'd like to find a player willing to
run a game
session every once in a while so I can play some too.
You've run for 8 years, that must mean there are Champions
gamers
around. Please introduce me to them! I've been at this for a
while myself,
but mostly in the Richmond area and New York. ^_^;
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
- Joan of Arc's .sig
Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
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From: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: RPGers in Oklahoma?
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:23:40 -0500
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> Well, I'm leaving the state of Illinois come this July
to attend
>Grad School at the University of Oklahoma. Does anyone know of
the gaming
>scene in that area? Norman games would be great, Oklahoma City
is OK too.
>(Only about 20 min away.)
I have a friend in Tulsa that plays Champions. Lost his email address
though.
You should find ample gamers at the university, AFAIK there are many
there.
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
- Joan of Arc's .sig
Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
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From: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
To: William K Bushway <wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu&>
"'Champions'"
<champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Players & GMs in Northern Virginia!
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:33:23 -0500
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>-----Original Message-----
>From: William K Bushway [SMTP:wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu]
>Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 1998 2:08 PM
>To: Andreano, Keith
>Subject: RE: Players & GMs in Northern Virginia!
>Alright, I've got my plans pretty much hammered out for
the
>summer. If you're still looking to set up a game, I'll be
available
>weekends (and possibly weekday evenings).
I will be working on a deck and I will have some business
travel, but
I should still have time to run (especially weekends after the
deck is
done, which will be by summer. Business travel will be done then
too).
> If you're looking for a place to run a game, I can
recommend two
>places; There's a gaming store in Chantilly Plaza (Northern
Va) with
>tables and private rooms dedicated to gaming. I don't know how
far that
>is from where you live, but I definitely recommend it as the
best gaming
>store in the area.
I know it. Its about 20 min from where I work.
> Or, we could always try it here, on the campus of George
Mason.
>It's probably about a half-hour from where you live (20 minuted
on 495, 10
>on Braddock Road). It's pretty easy to reserve any of the many
conference
>rooms, but I don't how much of the campus will be open during
the summer.
Fine with me if the campus doesn't mind. Do they charge for
parking, etc.?
> Finally, I'm pretty sure I can convince at least 3 of my
friends
>to join us. They've never played before, but then again,
neither have I.
>Their ages range from 19-21 (I'm 20) if that makes a difference
to you.
I'm 31, if that makes a difference to you. ^_^
If they are good gamers they're fine with me, that's all that
counts!
> I look forward to hearing back from you,
Ditto!
> William K. Bushway, wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu
> http://Mason.GMU.edu/~wbushway/index.html
>"I'm betting that I'm just abnormal enough to
survive."
> -The Tick, The Tick Vs.The Breadmaster
I LOVE the Tick! ^_^
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
- Joan of Arc's .sig
Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:48:38 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Favorite Adventures? <time travel>
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David B Stallard wrote:
>
> How about describing some of your favorite adventures (as player or GM) in
> one or two paragraphs? What made it more interesting than usual? Maybe
> these little adventure synopses could provide seeds for the GMs (like me)
> on this list.
>
One of the most successfull I have run (the reminders coming from
another thread) was a variation on 'the menace out of time'. The plot
followed the basic format (fighting 'out of time' menaces (inclding Thor
who seemed to have a grudge against the mage of the group) then going
back in time) with these few changes- when the PCs came back from the
past, they found an alternate present; Horror world from Champs in 3-D.
The PC's spent a few sessions trying to figure out where the change
came, followed it back, and came to the ritual as described in the 3-d
book; all of them with a fair amount of crazyness from the anophalese.
They get to the gate to the past, and the mage flips his pool to
detecting otherworldly things, and gets a huge reading. He goes in and
blasts what he detected. It was Thor. Who then said something about
'taking his effort to save thier world', then dissapeared in mid
sentence. The PCs defeated the demon-creatures and returned to thier own
time, and found it normal, much to their relief.
What made this so wonderful, as a gm, was that, early on, the PCs fell
into wondering why Thor went after the mage, and that the player of the
mage walked right into the 'paradox trap' I had put in (I usually am not
that subtle); which by the time they had got to that point, everyone had
all but forgotten about Thor and the other early stuff, and were
concerned about staying sane, and returning the world to normal.
--
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages,
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and
goes through their pockets. -- Eddy Peters
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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:24:43 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Bank robberies
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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I'm just curious what variations people have put on the standard "bank
robbery" (or jewel heist, or whatever) theme. If the heroes catch the
villains in the act, a battle will ensue and the adventure could end right
there. If the heroes come in after-the-fact, they might do a little
investigating to find out who the robbers were and where they are hiding
out, and then go bust up the place. How have you extended this adventure
theme or made it more interesting?
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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:33:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Hello to the group..
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On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Andreano, Keith HIM,VA wrote:
>
> >Keith,
> >I live In Montgomery County, MD, and Work in Crystal City, VA.
>
> Not far!
>
> >I might be interested in playing in a game (I am sorta GM'ed
> out right
> >now, having done it for the past eight years, with a few
> breaks) in
> >Northern VA, depending on where.
>
> >Where are you located?
>
> I live just south of the Wilson bridge (~10-15 min from Crystal
> City)
> and I work in Reston (not too far from Montgomery County).
Hmm... I live in Howard County and work in Montgomery County. Local
gaming has become a touch sparse recently as several gmaes have shut down,
or will be shutting down. What sort oferested in?
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:52:57 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Nic Neidenbach <naneiden@iswest.com>
Subject: Re: CLOWN
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Hi all,
Stan West, the author of CLOWN, is a friend of mine, and I passed along
much of the CLOWN thread here on the mailing list. Stan has been nice
enough to send me a response to pass on to the list.
-Nic
-----------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: CLOWN on Hero Mailing List
CLOWN has always been designed for comic relief and for hassling authority.
They are spoiled brats with super-powers who believe the world is just one
gigantic playground. While it may be true that PCs would probably hate
being on the receiving end of CLOWN's antics, a tour through the history of
comics will show that there are a lot of villains who have made everyone
from Spider-man to Superman look like idiots -- and not all of them were
caught and jailed for long. There's an even longer line of adversaries who
are deadly serious about their goals but think nothing of stepping off the
path to make an enemy look like a complete fool. Daredevil got a big dose
of that when the Kingpin messed up his life a while back.
To the point that the GM must be good at improvisation comedy, to a point,
that may be true. However, comedy comes in many forms -- physical, puns,
one-line jokes, and improvisation (among others). Improv does not
necessarily have to be the route the GM takes -- he can go the slapstick
route, delve in pun-based comedy, work out skits ala Saturday Night, or
just act like a bunch of rampaging teen pranksters out to do a glorified
version of Animal House on the landscape.
Like all game supplements, CLOWN is a template -- a product that the GM can
tailor to his campaign however he sees fits. So long as the GM is fair
about the rules and everyone -- PCs and GM -- are clear about the house
rules and the rules of the game are enforced consistently and fairly, CLOWN
would pose no more a problem to a campaign than any other Champions team.
By the by, CLOWN ended up being a "new" Hunted in a campaign I ran a while
back... the PCs knew what they were in for when they ran into CLOWN and
gave them some pretty spirited competitions in everything from an impromptu
Olympics to a comedic, almost Indiana-Jones-like chase through Washington
DC (the CLOWNs had stolen a collection of cuckoo clocks from a nearby
auction house).
-Stan West
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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:32:29 -0400
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Bank robberies
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:24 PM 4/22/98 -0400, David B Stallard wrote:
>I'm just curious what variations people have put on the standard "bank
>robbery" (or jewel heist, or whatever) theme. If the heroes catch the
>villains in the act, a battle will ensue and the adventure could end right
>there. If the heroes come in after-the-fact, they might do a little
>investigating to find out who the robbers were and where they are hiding
>out, and then go bust up the place. How have you extended this adventure
>theme or made it more interesting?
>
Ah, yes ... Good old reliable bank robberies.
We tend to use those as quick, throw-away scenarios, or as a convenient
setting to introduce some other point or plot device.
Variations:
- Change the setting: Federal Reserve, liquor store, Brinks drop-off point
- Let them try following a string of robberies, perhaps trying to predict
where they will occur.
- Use innocent bystanders mercilessly. Hostage standoffs are nice.
- Have the robbers be flunkies for a bigger target. Figure that out or
the robberies continue.
- Threaten massive property damage.
- Throw in surprise twists. (The villain never intended to actually rob
the bank. He was there for another reason.)
- Why is the villain robbing the bank? To get money. For what? To Be
Continued ...
- Let the media get involved. Make them very critical of risky tactics.
- Throw in an obnoxious SWAT team leader.
- Wanna get truly weird? Say it's 1898. (Just because.)
Hmmm ... This is the first time I've ever given this any thought. I'm
going to have to keep this list for future reference! :)
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
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From: "WG Rowland" <rowland@cts.com>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Favorite GMing session
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:32:43 -0700
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The best Champions game I ever ran, unfortunately didn't play out to it's
conclusion (We only got to play one session of what was meant to be a
campaign).. It was my first attempt at Dark Champions, with a rather
eclectic group. Anyway.. The game was centered in a city called New
Amsterdam, a sort of seedy New York type place, and that night had two
elements involved.
The main plot had to do with a characters DNPC who sang at a Nightclub
vanishing, but I also introduced an unrelated theme involving a serial
killer in the town.
The serial killer was the interesting part with a large background and
future plot involving him and his brother, but for the purposes of this
scenario he was interesting because he had the power of illusion and was
completely befuddling both the police and the PC's..
Here's a couple of examples of how useful and fun the SK was.
I had one character, who was trying to hunt down the killer (a
lone-wolf/Batman type vigilante that just refused to be part of the group).
He was on the scene after one of the killings, watching the crime scene from
atop a building. Anyway, as he watches, he sees a strange looking man, not
only inside the police circle, but actually playing with the victim in front
of the police, and no one seems to notice. (The PC is outside the
illusion's radius)..
Eventually the stranger leaves the scene and heads for an alleyway, the PC
gives chase, following on his heels through alley after alley, and finally
runs into a dead end. In the dead end, among the garbage cans is a bum
snoozing. The PC interrogates the bum, but gets no info.. The bum didn't
see anything, and is more interested in a turkey carcass that's been left on
a garbage can. Finally the PC leaves as the bum starts eating his turkey
dinner, only to hear the bum screaming a few seconds later.
He returns to find the bum sniveling on the ground. A few feet away, on
the ground, is the victims severed arm with a couple of bites missing.
Now with the PC knowing nothing about the killer's illusionary nature, he
was freaked (and grossed) out enough that he went seeking help from the few
contacts he had in the town (the party)..
Later, the whole group tracks this guy to a warehouse (thinking he might
have the missing DNPC). This was the most fun of the entire night. As I
used the opportunity to play with the group to it's fullest.. The killer
WAS in the warehouse, and knew he was being stalked, so he started playing
tricks on the group. First he moved things around. Like shifting
everything behind them three feet to the left, so when the turned around it
seemed like they'd moved when they hadn't. Then making sounds.. I got them
chasing all over the warehouse, doing things like saying as they walked into
the room, "You hear the sound of nothing going through the door behind you."
At one point I had one of the PC's vanish, and they went scrambling all over
the place to find her, when she was in the same room with them the whole
time.
Finally, they were so freaked out they were jumping at real noises in the
house. It was great.
Anyway, all that was simply foreshadowing of things I'd intended them to do
if the campaign ever got going (which sadly it didn't).. In reality the DNPC
had been kidnapped by a Yakuza type gang that owned the last nightclub she'd
worked at, and intended to sell her into white slavery overseas.. The whole
session ended with a big knock-down drag out that saved the girl and made
the brawler PC's happy.. Everyone had a blast..
God I miss gaming..
WGR
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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:44:15 -0700
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell)
To: DBStallard@compuserve.com
Subject: Re: Bank robberies
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-> From DBStallard@compuserve.com Wed Apr 22 12:55:30 1998
->
-> I'm just curious what variations people have put on the standard "bank
-> robbery" (or jewel heist, or whatever) theme. If the heroes catch the
-> villains in the act, a battle will ensue and the adventure could end right
-> there. If the heroes come in after-the-fact, they might do a little
-> investigating to find out who the robbers were and where they are hiding
-> out, and then go bust up the place. How have you extended this adventure
-> theme or made it more interesting?
->
1) Bank robbers are a street gang that have been given awesome high-tech
or magic weapons that make them dangerous. After heroes stop the robbery
they must find the mysterious figure that sold them the weapons.
2) The 'robbers' are really heroes from another city and the bank is really
a front for a Viper base. After the heroes fight each other for awhile they
realize it is all a misunderstanding and team up to clean out the base.
3) The bank robbers are stopped as they try to get away. After the battle the
heroes notice that the robbers stole no cash, just a key (or a ring, or a map,
etc) from a safe deposit box. Who hired the robbers and what is the signifigance
of the object.
All these type of plots make for games where there is a short combat at the
beginning, then some role-playing/problem solving, then a combat at the end.
I really like those kinds of games.
-Sam
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From: "WG Rowland" <rowland@cts.com>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Bank robberies
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 14:30:17 -0700
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One interresting variation I've seen was the hapless villain getting trapped
in the automatic vault, and the heros actually having to save the robber.
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:38:09 -0500 (CDT)
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Bank robberies
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> wrote:
>
> I'm just curious what variations people have put on the standard "bank
> robbery" (or jewel heist, or whatever) theme. If the heroes catch the
> villains in the act, a battle will ensue and the adventure could end right
> there. If the heroes come in after-the-fact, they might do a little
> investigating to find out who the robbers were and where they are hiding
> out, and then go bust up the place. How have you extended this adventure
> theme or made it more interesting?
>
Well, it doesn't have to be a 'bank' robbery. The robbers could be stealing
something else: like food, building supplies, medicine etc. etc. Stuff that it
would be a lot more practical to just buy, if you had the money. Then the
obvious question is: Why don't they just buy the stuff ? Or rob a bank to
get the money and then buy the stuff ?
Curt
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:55:22 -0500 (CDT)
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: Bank robberies
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Content-Length: 153
>
> One interresting variation I've seen was the hapless villain getting trapped
> in the automatic vault, and the heros actually having to save the robber.
>
>
>
How about the **heroes** have to break into the bank for some reason ?
Curt
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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:00:26 -0700
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Bank robberies
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 04:32 PM 4/22/1998 -0400, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>At 03:24 PM 4/22/98 -0400, David B Stallard wrote:
>>I'm just curious what variations people have put on the standard "bank
>>robbery" (or jewel heist, or whatever) theme. If the heroes catch the
>>villains in the act, a battle will ensue and the adventure could end right
>>there. If the heroes come in after-the-fact, they might do a little
>>investigating to find out who the robbers were and where they are hiding
>>out, and then go bust up the place. How have you extended this adventure
>>theme or made it more interesting?
>
>Ah, yes ... Good old reliable bank robberies.
>
>We tend to use those as quick, throw-away scenarios, or as a convenient
>setting to introduce some other point or plot device.
>
>Variations:
>- Change the setting: Federal Reserve, liquor store, Brinks drop-off point
>- Let them try following a string of robberies, perhaps trying to predict
> where they will occur.
>- Use innocent bystanders mercilessly. Hostage standoffs are nice.
>- Have the robbers be flunkies for a bigger target. Figure that out or
> the robberies continue.
>- Threaten massive property damage.
>- Throw in surprise twists. (The villain never intended to actually rob
> the bank. He was there for another reason.)
>- Why is the villain robbing the bank? To get money. For what? To Be
> Continued ...
>- Let the media get involved. Make them very critical of risky tactics.
>- Throw in an obnoxious SWAT team leader.
>- Wanna get truly weird? Say it's 1898. (Just because.)
>
>Hmmm ... This is the first time I've ever given this any thought. I'm
>going to have to keep this list for future reference! :)
You call 1898 "truly weird"? Try this:
- "We don't rob the bank. We *steal* it." I did this once, only the
target wasn't
just any bank. Nope, the bad guys decided to steal Fort Knox.
- "Wait a minute. They broke into the bank vault to *put money in*?" (The
money, of
course, is chemically treated in any of a wide variety of ways....)
- "Hi. We're bank robbers. Oh, you're superheroes? Okay, we surrender.
That's
okay, isn't it? We don't really have to *fight*, do we?" (They're
trying to get
thrown in prison for some reason.)
- The villains break into the bank at night, get into the vault, run
through all the
safe deposit boxes, and finally leave empty-handed. Why? They're after
some
specific item which would make carrying any other loot seem like wasted
effort by
comparison, and which happened to be at a different branch (or at the
owner's home,
or otherwise in a different locale).
- The robbers could also be working for the bank itself, which is failing
due to
embezzlement by its officers. They're trying to replenish the money
they've taken
with FDIC funds through this insurance scam.
- Phil Masters had perhaps the oddest twist of all in Kingdom of Champions,
based on
a real-life fact: there is no cash at the Bank of England. Imagine what
a Yank
villain gang would do when they discover that little tidbit!
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:30:45 -0400
From: Joshua Krage <jkrage@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Hello to the group..
Mail-Followup-To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 03:33:02PM -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Andreano, Keith HIM,VA wrote:
> > >Keith,
> > >I live In Montgomery County, MD, and Work in Crystal City, VA.
> Hmm... I live in Howard County and work in Montgomery County. Local
> gaming has become a touch sparse recently as several gmaes have shut down,
> or will be shutting down. What sort oferested in?
Double hmm... I live in Montgomery, but will be moving closer to Prince
George's where I'll be working in a few weeks.
I'm personally interested in several genres; 4-color, high fantasy,
space opera, and dark champions (which I've never tried).
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
jkrage@access.digex.net UNIX and Networks and Computer Security, oh my!
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 01:15:18 +0000
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Subject: Champions Hardcover
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For what it worth folks (now that Hero 5th edition is in the works) I noticed while poking
around both Amazon.Com and BarnesandNoble.com that they both claim to have the
Champions hardcover (from the price I would guess it's not the "deluxe" - $26).
Amazon.com doesn't maintain a warehouse, but Barnes and Noble does, so B&N may
actually have copies left (no discount though).
John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
=================================================
Gotta question about the list? Just ask. Or, you can go look
over at www.sysabend.org/champions. Yeah, yeah, I know,
it's ugly. I'll make the site prettier when I have time.
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From: "Michael Nunn" <sbnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Just checking out the new PC
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:14:56 -0500
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Got a new PC and I'm just checking out my mailer...
Michael
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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:23:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Hello to the group..
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On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Joshua Krage wrote:
> > > >Keith,
> > > >I live In Montgomery County, MD, and Work in Crystal City, VA.
> > Hmm... I live in Howard County and work in Montgomery County. Local
> > gaming has become a touch sparse recently as several gmaes have shut down,
> > or will be shutting down. What sort oferested in?
>
> Double hmm... I live in Montgomery, but will be moving closer to Prince
> George's where I'll be working in a few weeks.
>
> I'm personally interested in several genres; 4-color, high fantasy,
> space opera, and dark champions (which I've never tried).
I've done 4-color and Dark Champs, but have never really done
'high-fantasy' or space opera.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:27:17 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Grossly Complex problem
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 03:41 PM 4/19/1998 -0700, Robert A. West wrote:
> ><power based on draw poker>
> >
> >First, I see no reason not to extend the Activation Table down to 3-.
> >table snipped
>
> The alignment was awfuly skewed, but I think most of us (myself among
> them) could figure it out.
I apologize. This form of list usually comes through fine. I wonder
what happened?
>
> >The "actual" column gives the book value, and the "proposed" column the
> >value that I would use to extend the table. I chose the values for
> >computational simplicity: -9 is 1/10 cost; -19 is 1/20; -199 is 1/200.
> >The overriding minimum of 1 pt per power holds.
>
> Actually I prefer the pattern of doubling the Bonus per -3 to the roll:
>
> Roll Bonus
> 3 -6
> 4 -5
> 5 -4
> 6 -3
> 7 -2 1/2
Well, this is what I have actually used when the situation arose, but it
vastly undervalues the limitation based on expectations. Nevertheless, a
-199 Limitation does look scary. I can just see some munchkin's thinking
up Activation Man!
BTW, if the above tables were that bad, then the table of hands was
probably undecipherable. I present it again, hopefully readable this
time.
To compute the chances of any given hand, we need merely consider how
many such hands there are. The Limitations are computed using the 1-1/p
formula, giving the value that would, if the sole limitation, give a
ratio of real to active points equal to the probability of the given
hand, or in the case of cumulative probabilities, the given hand or
better.
Hand Type Number Prob. Limitation Cum Prob Limitation
Royal Flush 4 0.0002% -649,739 0.0002% -649,739
Straight Flush 36 0.0014% -72,192 1/4 0.0015% -64,973
Four of a Kind 624 0.0240% -4,164 0.0255% -3,913
Full House 3,744 0.1441% -693 1/4 0.1696% -588 1/2
Flush 5,108 0.1965% -507 3/4 0.3661% -272
Straight 10,200 0.3925% -253 3/4 0.7586% -130 3/4
Three of a Kind 54,912 2.1128% -46 1/4 2.8715% -33 3/4
Two Pair 123,552 4.7539% -20 7.6254% -12
Pair 1,098,240 42.2569% -1 1/4 49.8823% -1
Ace High 502,860 19.3485% -4 1/4 69.2308% -1/2
King High 335,580 12.9121% -6 3/4 82.1429% -1/4
Queen High 213,180 8.2025% -11 1/4 90.3454% 0
Jack High 127,500 4.9058% -19 1/2 95.2512% 0
Ten High 70,380 2.7080% -36 97.9592% 0
Nine High 34,680 1.3344% -74 99.2936% 0
Eight High 14,280 0.5495% -181 99.8430% 0
Seven High 4,080 0.1570% -636 100.0000% 0
>
> >Note that a seven-high bust is slightly less likely on the deal than a
> >flush! Comparing the probabilities shows us that poker hands can be
> >crudely approximated via 3D6:
> >
Man, this came through ugly! Fixing the table for anyone who cares (and
I hope this comes through readably):
> >Hand # hands prob. 3D6
> >Straight or + 19,716 0.7586% 3
> >Three of a Kind 54,912 2.1128% 4
> >Two Pair 123,552 4.7539% 5
> >Pair 1,098,240 42.257% 6 to 10
> >Ace High 502,860 19.349% 11
> >King High 335,580 12.912% 12
> >Queen High 213,180 8.2025% 13
> >Jack High 127,500 4.9058% 14
> >Ten High 70,380 2.7080% 15
> >Nine High 34,680 1.3344% 16
> >Eight High 14,280 0.5495% 17
> >Seven High 4,080 0.1570% 18
> >
> >If the 3 is rolled, we roll again on 3D6:
> >
> >Hand # hands prob. rel. prob on 3D6
> >Royal Flush 4 0.0002% 0.0203% 3
> >Straight Flush 36 0.0014% 0.1826% 4
> >Four of a Kind 624 0.0240% 3.1649% 5
> >Full House 3,744 0.1441% 18.9897% 6 to 8
> >Flush 5,108 0.1965% 25.9079% 9 or 10
> >Straight 10,200 0.3925% 51.7346% 11 to 18
>
> I like this way of representing it....
Thanks! I am glad that you could decipher it!
>
> >Now, if you permit one draw of up to 3 cards, the chances are roughly as
> >follows:
>
> I don't think I'd worry about the vagaries of the draw. I got the
> impression from the original description that each draw would take an extra
> Phase. Having to take 15 Phases (or whatever) in the middle of combat to
> draw cards can be quite a limiter (not as much as a straight Activation
> Roll, I'll admit, but still....)
This is why I proposed converting the Limitation to Extra Time.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 02:24:07 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Eric Chauvin <calicajun@prtcl.com>
Subject: Re: To All So Cal Gamers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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WG Rowland wrote:
>If there are any games going on in the San Diego area, especially Fantasy
>Hero or Champions campaigns, I'd love to hear about them..
>
>WG Rowland
>
>
Hey WG & other So Cal Gamers:
I am a Southern California resident as well. Not as far South as San Diego,
but close. I live in Dana Point (South Orange County) I currently play with
a group on Wednesdays in Huntington Beach. We have been gaming together for
well over 5 years now. Our group is over 7 strong so it is doubtful if we
have room for more, but some from the group are South Orange County & one
in Vista. Some of us are interested in starting up a second group.
preferably one closer to our homes. Whereabouts in San Diego do you live,
North or South, & how far are you willing to drive to game?
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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 05:37:09 -0700
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Just checking out the new PC
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At 09:14 PM 4/22/1998 -0500, Michael Nunn wrote:
>Got a new PC and I'm just checking out my mailer...
Well, it appears to be working fine. :-]
Had a chance to run anything centered around GADGET in your game yet,
Michael?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 11:48:32 -0400
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Urklore The Iron <urklore@tiac.net>
Subject: Re: Ultimate Utility Belt
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Has Anyone posted the URL for the WebSite that is going to host the
Ultimate Utility Belt. I usually play Gadget Freak Heroes myself and would
like to contribute my large list of gadgets with Descriptions and Writeups.
************************************************************************
* Bill Schwartz, Billcutis of Borg, Iceman Incarnate, Internet Lord *
* Galaxy Ranger (With Series-5 Brain Implant and Bio-Defenses) *
* Leader of ANIME ADVENTURERS, Finisher of the World of XEEN, Tea Lord *
* Level 7.7 DM, Keeper of the NetHOARD, Keeper of 81 RPG Systems *
* Slave to the all powerful JOLT, Forever Knight Vampire Fledgling *
* Hot Chocolate King, "Welcome", "You've got Mail", ROBOTECH Master *
* Muad'dib Disciple, "Predacons TERRORIZE!" "Maximals MAXIMIZE!" *
* "Die Autobots!!", "Clearly I can not choose the wine in front of me" *
* "It musst give usss our preciousss!", "Warp 7.....Engage!." *
* "Orbots Unite!", "Blood and Souls for my Lord Arioch!" UNIX Neophyte *
* "Yes my lord?" "Ready to serve" Remember, Computers never ever lie *
* Visit my lair brave adventurer @ http://www.anime-adventurers.com *
************************************************************************
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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:44:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Champions Hardcover & Amazon.com
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
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I've since been informed that Amazon does maintain a sizable
inventory, but only of frequently ordered items. Sounds like B&N is
still more likely to actually have some in stock.
==
John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
============================================
Got a question about the list? Just ask. Or, you can go
look over at www.sysabend.org/champions. I've been
slowly posting information about the list there.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
To: "'urklore@tiac.net'" <urklore@tiac.net>
Cc: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Ultimate Utility Belt
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 11:25:41 -0700
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>I usually play Gadget Freak Heroes myself and would like to
>contribute my large list of gadgets with Descriptions and Writeups.
Bob Greenwade (bob.greenwade@klock.com) and I are working on The
Ultimate Gadgeteer. If there's anything you'd like to see included,
please get with us.
Dave Mattingly
gadgeteer@haymaker.org
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:28:30 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions Hardcover
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<< For what it worth folks (now that Hero 5th edition is in the works) I
noticed while poking around both Amazon.Com and BarnesandNoble.com that they
both claim to have the Champions hardcover (from the price I would guess it's
not the "deluxe" - $26). >>
<< Amazon.com doesn't maintain a warehouse, but Barnes and Noble does, so B&N
may actually have copies left (no discount though). >>
As was mentioned in the 5th Ed HSR press release <G>, we still have plenty
of copies of the Champions Deluxe hardback for sale. We listed the Champions
hardcover with Barnes & Noble (who buys through Chessex, I understand) and
Amazon.com to make it even more accessible to Hero fans and potential Hero
System fans. I need to go check and make sure they have the book listed
correctly, however. Thanks for reminding me.
Mark @ GRG
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:54:31 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions Hardcover & Amazon.com
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<< I've since been informed that Amazon does maintain a sizable inventory, but
only of frequently ordered items. Sounds like B&N is still more likely to
actually have some in stock. >>
AFAIK, niether company maintains a large stock of these. They either order
them from a distributor or direct from us (e.g., we've received and filled
orders for the Usagi Yojimbo RPG from both Amazon and B&N).
Mark @ GRG
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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:01:32 -0500 (CDT)
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To: Urklore The Iron <urklore@tiac.net&> champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net>
Subject: Re: Ultimate Utility Belt
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At 11:48 AM 4/23/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Has Anyone posted the URL for the WebSite that is going to host the
>Ultimate Utility Belt. I usually play Gadget Freak Heroes myself and would
>like to contribute my large list of gadgets with Descriptions and Writeups.
>
Give us all a taste of what you have already created.
>
>
>************************************************************************
>* Bill Schwartz, Billcutis of Borg, Iceman Incarnate, Internet Lord *
>* Galaxy Ranger (With Series-5 Brain Implant and Bio-Defenses) *
>* Leader of ANIME ADVENTURERS, Finisher of the World of XEEN, Tea Lord *
>* Level 7.7 DM, Keeper of the NetHOARD, Keeper of 81 RPG Systems *
>* Slave to the all powerful JOLT, Forever Knight Vampire Fledgling *
>* Hot Chocolate King, "Welcome", "You've got Mail", ROBOTECH Master *
>* Muad'dib Disciple, "Predacons TERRORIZE!" "Maximals MAXIMIZE!" *
>* "Die Autobots!!", "Clearly I can not choose the wine in front of me" *
>* "It musst give usss our preciousss!", "Warp 7.....Engage!." *
>* "Orbots Unite!", "Blood and Souls for my Lord Arioch!" UNIX Neophyte *
>* "Yes my lord?" "Ready to serve" Remember, Computers never ever lie *
>* Visit my lair brave adventurer @ http://www.anime-adventurers.com *
>************************************************************************
>
>
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Generic reply to everyone who replied.
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 05:13:00 +1000
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>
> Since two people asked. I'm also from Southern California (San Diego,
as
> south as you can get, just about), and haven't played an RPG since I
moved
> down here (over 2.5 years or more now).. No help for gamers in
Virginia....
> Topic 2: Anyone here played Ultima Online? There is a perfect example
of
> a point system gone wrong. Sorry to an UO fans out there, but Putting an
> upper limit on where you can go in that game really deadens the
experience.
> You run around a week or two, do things, and then realize there's nowhere
to
> go from here.
Well gee, you could... advance a plotline? Role-playing is about story, not
horsepower. Most people in uol seem to be the type that thing the ultima
series
really was a computer role playing game. .. .bit hard to rp with no-one
else in the game. . .The reason uo is 'dead' is that few people are
actually roleplaying.
As opposed to running round hitting things.
> As for my own vision of the perfect online RPG (something I someday hope
to
> build).. You design a modular core (kind of an RPG in code) that you can
> attatch multiple engines and games to. So you could use the same
character
> in a text base rpg as you could in, say, a Quake style 3d game. And they
> would act proportionately the same in regards to other characters. You
also
> have modules you can add in/take out that allow you to add
> skills/abilities/powers that fit to the particular genre...
>
Welll. . .i'd say a quick conversion would be easier than trying
to force uniform concepts on wildly different interfaces from some sort of
'core' princible. Sure, different add-ons for varying genre makes sence,
differing sfx and character concepts, but i'd say most products would
base their high/low demand structure on lower resolution graphics,
less options, ect, ect.
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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:18:01 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: 5th Ed Hero System Rules
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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I realize it's very early, but I was wondering if there's any scoop on the
5th Edition rules yet. Any rough estimate on a release month? Any
overwhelming opinion in the player surveys which prompted some changes?
Did the player surveys affect the goal of clearing up a lot of issues but
not introducing new rules? Remind me--5E is going to have all new art,
isn't it?
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From: SteveL1979 <SteveL1979@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:34:48 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: 5th Ed Hero System Rules
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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In a message dated 98-04-23 15:27:46 EDT, DBStallard@compuserve.com writes:
<< I realize it's very early, but I was wondering if there's any scoop on the
5th Edition rules yet. Any rough estimate on a release month?>>
I'm not sure, though I believe the plan is by the end of this year. I
started writing recently and am now deep into the Skills section.
<<Any overwhelming opinion in the player surveys which prompted some changes?
Did the player surveys affect the goal of clearing up a lot of issues but not
introducing new rules?>>
There weren't any overwhelming consensuses (consensi? :) ) of opinion in the
surveys as far as I can tell, although the scores for including things (just
about anything listed on the survey) tended to be high, on the average. The
basic goals and intent of the project remain more or less unchanged, though I
suppose that depends on what one defines as a "new rule."
<<Remind me--5E is going to have all new art, isn't it? >>
I believe so, but that's up to Mark.
Steve Long
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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:17:04 -0700
To: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com&>
"'urklore@tiac.net'" <urklore@tiac.net>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Ultimate Utility Belt
Cc: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 11:25 AM 4/23/1998 -0700, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>>I usually play Gadget Freak Heroes myself and would like to
>>contribute my large list of gadgets with Descriptions and Writeups.
>
>Bob Greenwade (bob.greenwade@klock.com) and I are working on The
>Ultimate Gadgeteer. If there's anything you'd like to see included,
>please get with us.
I'll second that. :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:42:11 -0700
To: SteveL1979 <SteveL1979@aol.com&> champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Ed Hero System Rules
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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Might I plead yet again for the inclusion of a "Social Limitation" or
"Secret" Disadvantage, as was the subject of surprisingly broad
consensus (on the idea, if not the exact implementation) here?
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:43:38 +0000
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Subject: Reduced END
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
[Yes, I realize that this issue has probably been thrashed to death before, but it wasn't
in the POC list]
Ok, I've managed to confuse myself here. The description of Reduced END is value
on this point. If you apply the 1/4 advantage [Half END Cost] to a power, do you derive
the new END cost from the new active cost including the Reduced END advantage or
the active cost not including the Reduced END advantage.
The examples in the BBB appear to base the END cost on the active cost not including
the Reduced END advantage, but Heromaker bases it on the active cost including the
Reduced END advantage.
The description in the BBB doesn't explicitly spell it out either way.
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:49:57 EDT
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: 5th Ed Hero System Rules
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
In a message dated 4/23/98 12:27:46 PM, DBStallard@compuserve.com wrote:
<<I realize it's very early, but I was wondering if there's any scoop on the
5th Edition rules yet. Any rough estimate on a release month? Any
overwhelming opinion in the player surveys which prompted some changes?
Did the player surveys affect the goal of clearing up a lot of issues but
not introducing new rules? Remind me--5E is going to have all new art,
isn't it?
>>
It's too early to estimate a release month at this point. Steve and I have
spent several days going over the rules together, and Steve is now busy
working on the manuscript.
The surveys, not surprisingly, identified Aid and Hand Attack as the most
popular candidates for revision. There were a great number of powers,
advantages and limitations referenced, along with many suggestions for
possible fixes. The surveys were also in favor of adding in many of the items
that have previously appeared in other books (like Hero System Almanacs).
Generally, our goals remain unchanged for the project: clean up the
presentation and writing, and add more definition where needed (which is in
many places). Few point costs will change, but what you can do for those
points may change (or, usually, have more precise definitions). There will be
some new rules and options.
And yes, the 5th Edition of the Hero System will have all-new artwork.
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Champions Hardcover
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 23 Apr 1998 17:23:43 -0400
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John Desmarais writes:
> For what it worth folks (now that Hero 5th edition is in the works) I
> noticed while poking around both Amazon.Com and BarnesandNoble.com that
> they both claim to have the Champions hardcover (from the price I would
> guess it's not the "deluxe" - $26).
That would be the original fourth edition hardcover book. The "deluxe"
edition, 4.2 of the rules, includes Heromaker, with a slightly higher price
tag (I want to say around $35-$40).
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--
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
\
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Reply-To: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com>
From: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com>
To: "Hero System Listserv" <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: PBEM Web Page Update
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 19:25:54 -0400
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At long last, the York PBEM web page has been updated. The "Birth of the
Sentinels" story is now complete, and there is the first portion of a
subplot called "Welcome to the Big City" now online.
Lisa Hartjes
beren@unforgettable.com
Home: http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/daniken/79
"It's not supposed to be making that noise, is it."
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 19:36:42 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: 5th Ed Hero System Rules
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<< Remind me--5E is going to have all new art, isn't it?>>
We will certainly be presenting a lot of new art in the book. Whether or not
it is *all* new remains to be decided, AFAIK.
Mark @ GRG
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From: "Michael Nunn" <sbnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: List down?
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:44:37 -0500
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Is the list down or am I? I got no messages today... now that's weird...
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
To: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:53:45 +0000
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Tear Gas?
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On Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:40:42 -0400 (EDT), Michael Surbrook wrote:
>I'm trying to build some tear gas grenades and am wondering if these are
>designed right:
>
>27 Tear Gas Grenades: 3d6 Flash vs Sight, 1d6 NND (Def is not needing
> to breathe), AoE Radius 3", 4 shots of 1 Turn each (-1/2), OAF (-1),
> Range based on STR (-1/4), No effect in high winds or rain (-1/4)
>
>1st - do I need to add Continous and Uncontrolled to this power or does
>the Continuing Charge do that for me?
The rather sketchy (similar) example in the BBB relies exclusively on the continuing
charge (the example is actually a smoke bomb).
>2nd - No effect in high winds or rain - is this a spurious disad since a
>Continous charge should be dispersed by this by default?
Continuing charges must include a reasonable common way to turn them off. Unless
you have some other method in mind, the wind/rain would fill ths requirement.
>3 - am I missing anything else? Like, should the Flash be NND to?
No NND needed on the Flash. The defense is already uncommon enough, and if the
GM to paying attention to the special effect of the power and the special effect of
whatever flash def the target has then the defense becomes potentially even more
uncommon.
-=>John D.
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 19:54:52 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: 5th Ed Hero System Rules
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<< And yes, the 5th Edition of the Hero System will have all-new artwork.>>
Oh, well, there you go. :D
Mark @ GRG
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 19:59:06 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions Hardcover
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<< That would be the original fourth edition hardcover book. The "deluxe"
edition, 4.2 of the rules, includes Heromaker, with a slightly higher price
tag (I want to say around $35-$40). >>
That's not entirely accurate. The Champions Deluxe hardcover includes new
layouts, some typos cleared up and other miscellaneous improvements over the
previous 4th Ed hardcover. However, it is also available without HeroMaker (in
fact, we sold out of the version with the software over a year ago).
The $26 price tag is what the Champions Deluxe *softcover* was selling for
when we had it. Perhaps they had the wrong price (or wrong product/ISBN)
listed? I don't know; I'm still looking into it.
Mark @ GRG
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:04:11 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions Hardcover
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> For what it worth folks (now that Hero 5th edition is in the works) I
> noticed while poking around both Amazon.Com and BarnesandNoble.com that
> they both claim to have the Champions hardcover
Hmm. I did a search for "Champions" at the B&N site and it wasn't listed.
Mark @ GRG
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:08:14 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions Hardcover
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I stand corrected. It is listed there, at the link:
http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=5T1H0YOCUR&ms
cssid=JWVX640VTAS12JQA00CGNDBH0A2EKMSU&salesurl=Rshop.barnesandnoble.com/books
earch/results.asp&isbn=1558061665&featuredbook=N
Checking the ISBN they list, it appears that it, indeed, is NOT the Deluxe
hardcover. Strange. I wonder where they got *those* older books? Collector's
items, they are. <LOL>
Mark @ GRG
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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:25:53 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Ed Hero System Rules
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At 07:54 PM 4/23/1998 EDT, GoldRushG wrote:
><< And yes, the 5th Edition of the Hero System will have all-new artwork.>>
>
> Oh, well, there you go. :D
Oh darn, and I'd gotten so attached to the "bloodthirsty beast" illo
that was with Secret ID in the Fourth Edition, and has been around (I
think) for somewhat longer than that. Like the notorious "vital spots"
illo from Tunnels & Trolls, it may not be of the highest quality, but it's
really a classic (and the criticism of quality is *much* less in this
case). :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "David Nasset" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: The source of all power?/origins?
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:38:10 -0700
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----------
> From: Dennis C Hwang <dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu>
>
> On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, GoldRushG wrote:
>
> > << Well, i'd think a few ppl are a tad leery of another singularity
orbiting
> > the earth's core....that's what, four or five down there now? *j/k* >>
> >
> > Eh? Where else has this been used?
>
> Well, David Brin had one or two in _Earth_, as I recall.
>
There were a few in the Sun in Robert Forward's Dragon's Egg, and millions
in the Earth's core in James P. Hogan's Thrice Upon a Time. However, the
ones in the Sun were removed at the end of the story, and the ones in
Hogan's story were prevented from existing in the first place by a time
machine (hence the name).
Filksinger
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From: "David Nasset" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: How do I...
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:43:23 -0700
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----------
> From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
>
> > Btw, I thought of another Limitation for the taser: Cannot penetrate
> >Armor/rDEF.
>
> << Thats true, if the barbs get caught in the clothing..., then the taser
> don't work, but the current CAN still pass through thick clothing... >>
>
> So then what's wrong (in your opinion) with portraying it as an NND?
>
> Mark @ GRG
Because I find it ridiculous that a man who can wave a lightning rod over
his head during a storm and laugh as the lightning strikes repeatedly is
taken down by this weapon as easily as if he didn't have a 120 ED. A
superhero with an ED that good should be immune.
Since it is very high voltage AP might be reasonable, as it may penetrate
well, but enough ED should make you resistant, and a very high ED should
make you immune.
It should only changed from EB to EB NND if no amount of ED will stop it,
no matter how high. I don't find that a reasonable description of a taser.
Filksinger
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From: "David Nasset" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Favorite Adventures?
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 19:17:34 -0700
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----------
> From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>
> How about describing some of your favorite adventures (as player or GM)
in
> one or two paragraphs? What made it more interesting than usual? Maybe
> these little adventure synopses could provide seeds for the GMs (like me)
> on this list.
>
> I tried this last week and didn't get a single response, so I'm hoping it
> was overlooked or never received. If I don't get any responses this
time,
> I guess I'll take that as my cue to drop this thread.
Odd, I thought I saw a response or two. Must have been to the other,
similar thread.
I had great fun with the adventure The Coates Shambler many years ago.
***************Spoiler Alert!!!!!*************************
The Coates Shambler story had three options: 1) The Shambler (a ghost
that's haunted and driven mad a New England family for over 100 years) is
fake, a creation of the cousin of the present heir, trying to drive her mad
and get the family fortune; 2) The Shambler is real, and is trying to drive
the present heir mad, and possibly kill everyone else in the process, or 3)
1&2.
The truly difficult but fun option is 3. I liked the part where the players
kept arguing, "But I smelled chemicals at the lightning strike! It was
fake!" "But I sensed psychic images of the Shambler throwing a diary into
the fireplace in the study!" Another fun scene was where the slightly
crazed Scottsman, who did not believe in ghosts, chased the Shambler
through the darkness and tried to kill him with a claymore he found in the
trophy room, and watched it pass right through the figure. After that, he
played his disad as, "Terrified of ghosts", willing to believe they were
everywhere that strange things happened. Another was where, even after the
players knew that the fireplaces were hypnotic, I got away clean with
saying that the Coates heir was staring into the fire _twice_, and the
players didn't suspect a thing until she tried to kill them.
My personal favorite was, "The villain, with his hostage in front of him,
backs out of the room and into the solarium, which is dark because of the
night. He stops just past the doorway, looks to his left, and a look of
surprise fills his face. He throws the hostage in your direction, points
his gun to the left, and fires. He screams, and a wave of glass strikes
him, knocking him down so you only see his legs. Already, a pool of blood
is forming." The looks on the players faces when they realized what was
_really_ happening was priceless.
Filksinger
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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:40:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Tear Gas?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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I'm trying to build some tear gas grenades and am wondering if these are
designed right:
27 Tear Gas Grenades: 3d6 Flash vs Sight, 1d6 NND (Def is not needing
to breathe), AoE Radius 3", 4 shots of 1 Turn each (-1/2), OAF (-1),
Range based on STR (-1/4), No effect in high winds or rain (-1/4)
1st - do I need to add Continous and Uncontrolled to this power or does
the Continuing Charge do that for me?
2nd - No effect in high winds or rain - is this a spurious disad since a
Continous charge should be dispersed by this by default?
3 - am I missing anything else? Like, should the Flash be NND to?
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Tear Gas?
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Michael Surbrook writes:
> 1st - do I need to add Continous and Uncontrolled to this power or does
> the Continuing Charge do that for me?
You must buy Continuous. Continuing Charges gives you something akin to
Uncontrolled, so you do not have to buy that separately.
> 2nd - No effect in high winds or rain - is this a spurious disad since a
> Continous charge should be dispersed by this by default?
Yes, it is.
> 3 - am I missing anything else? Like, should the Flash be NND to?
Probably. Your really slick shades are not going to keep this kind of
stuff out of your eyes.
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
\ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:17:39 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Tear Gas?
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On Thu, 23 Apr 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> 1st - do I need to add Continous and Uncontrolled to this power or does
> the Continuing Charge do that for me?
They need to have Continuous added, as far as I know, but Uncontrolled
should not be necessary because of the Charges.
> 2nd - No effect in high winds or rain - is this a spurious disad since a
> Continous charge should be dispersed by this by default?
Hmm...well, technically, it is a disadvantage, since otherwise you could
throw a grenade in high winds/rain and get one phases-worth of effect.
I'd call it a -1/4.
> 3 - am I missing anything else? Like, should the Flash be NND to?
Well, I'm of the 'limit your Flash Defense' school. If the Flash Defense
(Sight) wouldn't work against the major SFX of a flash vs sight (which to
my mind are 'bright flash of light' and 'something gets in the eyes'),
then the Flash Defense should have a limitation. (Probably -1/2. Maybe
there should be physical flash and energy flash, with corresponding types
of defense? That may be too much detail...)
Anyway, in my campaigns, you wouldn't need to put NND on it - NND Flash
Defense would be for things like a 'blinding nerve strike'. Other GMs
might rule differently, though, especially if they subscribe to the 'Flash
Defense (Sight) is only good against bright lights' school.
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:19:31 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Tear Gas?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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On Thu, 23 Apr 1998, John Desmarais wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:40:42 -0400 (EDT), Michael Surbrook wrote:
> >1st - do I need to add Continous and Uncontrolled to this power or does
> >the Continuing Charge do that for me?
>
> The rather sketchy (similar) example in the BBB relies exclusively on the continuing
> charge (the example is actually a smoke bomb).
Note that the power (Darkness) in that example is already Continuous,
however. For an attack power to use continuing charges, it needs the
Continuous advantage.
J
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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 22:33:16 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: 5th Ed Hero System Rules
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Hero Games wrote:
> And yes, the 5th Edition of the Hero System will have all-new artwork.
>
> -- Steve Peterson, Hero Games
Just so long as all the artwork isn't new. I feel there should be some
'continuity' from the old. At least one or two pieces of 'legacy'
artwork that have been around since first edition (the Galactus looking
guy with his hand over the planet maybe). Hero has a long history and
soemthing of a tradition. Maybe that can be shown a little with the
artwork.
--
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages,
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and
goes through their pockets. -- Eddy Peters
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 03:58:47 -0500 (CDT)
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From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net>
Subject: gadgets
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So I'm sitting at workas this idea pops into my head for the second time.
How would someone set up a "Neuralizer" ala "Men in Black"?
So far I have this vague working concept.
1) Multipower
Transform
minor or major (not sure which is appropriate)
OAF, fragile, Costs END???
Flash linked to transform
End Reserve
Help?
Anyone?
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 02:06:50 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: The source of all power?
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
> The problem (as I've had it given to me) is that CU doesn't only not
> give a "blanket explanation" for all powers, but doesn't do very much to
> really explain why *any* type of superpower works in this universe when it
> wouldn't in our own. There isn't even an "X-gene" type of thing to explain
> why mutants are so different from other types of paranormal.
> Note that while I do consider this to be a weakness, I consider it a
> fairly piddling little thing. It's others (most of whom, I think, are no
> longer on this list for various reasons) who have made a big issue out of it.
> Heck, I don't even know that I go along with the need for flux or Gate
> Keys or that kind of thing to explain *all* paranormal abilities. It is
> cool to have, and I'm not against it; it just seems like a unnecessary
> thing (aside from the story hooks and such Mark mentioned).
I have always gone by the assumption that the reason that no
explaination(s) for how or why superpowers work or exist was because 1)a
lot of the time how or why simply isn't important, b)it encourages
players to put some effort into realizing their own concepts, rather
than trying to take a template which didn't quite fit and compromise
their character.
Now I don't see any problem with including such an explaination in a
gamebook or supplement, but I also don't personally see that it is
needed. Or at least I would have included it in a supplement rather
than the primary rulesbook.
That being said, I personally HATE the 'source of all power' concept,
and have never used it in a game I've run. I don't know why, but having
a pat explaination just rubs me the wrong way somehow. Just like when
Star Trek:TNG brought out the idea of the 'seeders'; beings then went
around the universe, 'seeding' planets for life to evolve, thus making
all the various aliens in the universe somehow ancestrally connected.
But then again, that's simply my choice and why I don't use such
material when I game.
--
"That's right, Al, YOU LOST! And let me tell you what you _didn't_
win; a 20-volume set of the Encyclopedia International, a case of
Turtle Wax, and a years supply of Rice-a-Roni, the San Francisco treat!
But that's not all; you also made yourself look like a jerk in front
of millions of people, and you've brought shame and disgrace down on
your family name for generations to come. You don't get to come back
tomorrow, you don't even get a lousy copy of our home game; you're a
COMPLETE LOSER!"
-Don Pardo, "I lost on Jeapordy"
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 02:34:05 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Examples (Was RE: Politics in the game)
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Andreano, Keith HIM,VA wrote:
> How about adding a religious hero that's good, and joins the
> heroes to stop these (extremely) misguided people. Could
> work out good for plot devices, kind of like the "Coriolis Effect".
> Want any plot ideas? I've been GMing since the mid '80s.
I think the problem run into there is that most GMs are busy running
the world and all the inhabitants therof, and seldom have enough time in
a game to be playing one of the 'good guys' as well. Generally
speaking, positive characters (of any ilk) are portrayed by the PCs,
while the GM is busy coming up with opposition for them. Having a
positively portrayed religious hero join up with the group would most
likely come off as "the GM trying to put a positive religious model into
the game".
In fact, I just recently had a religious group who were against the
PCs in my game. It was (after a pretty major story arc) discovered that
one of their number had discovered a source of Ultimate Power, and was
half mind-controlling, half playing on the beliefs of the rest of the
group to do what he wanted, while 'disguising' himself to be a simple
thug-type member of the team. He was never religiously motivated, he
just wanted to use that particular venue to gain power over The
Population.
But ultimately, he was found out, captured and imprisoned (in a way
that would hold him/keep him from his power source) and the rest of the
group will now be on the good guys side. There will still be the
occasional ideological difference in the future with one or another
hero/hero group, but will be much more positive characters. Of course,
this also means that they will very seldom be in the focus in future
games, either. I mean, generally speaking, a campaign is designed for
the PCs to be in the spotlight, doing their stuff, so the other Good
Guys in the campaign world usually serve as background rather than
taking the attention away from the PCs.
--
"That's right, Al, YOU LOST! And let me tell you what you _didn't_
win; a 20-volume set of the Encyclopedia International, a case of
Turtle Wax, and a years supply of Rice-a-Roni, the San Francisco treat!
But that's not all; you also made yourself look like a jerk in front
of millions of people, and you've brought shame and disgrace down on
your family name for generations to come. You don't get to come back
tomorrow, you don't even get a lousy copy of our home game; you're a
COMPLETE LOSER!"
-Don Pardo, "I lost on Jeapordy"
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 06:54:11 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Tear Gas?
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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> > 1st - do I need to add Continous and Uncontrolled to this power or does
> > the Continuing Charge do that for me?
>
> You must buy Continuous. Continuing Charges gives you something akin to
> Uncontrolled, so you do not have to buy that separately.
Unless the power is a slot in a multipower, in which case Uncontrolled IS
necessary, otherwise the power will shut off when another slot is used.
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 06:54:19 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Reduced END
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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> Ok, I've managed to confuse myself here. The description of Reduced END
is value
> on this point. If you apply the 1/4 advantage [Half END Cost] to a
power, do you derive
> the new END cost from the new active cost including the Reduced END
advantage or
> the active cost not including the Reduced END advantage.
I always run it that the points from the Reduced END Advantage are not
considered. I generally assume that Advantages don't consider themselves
(yuck... there's got to be a better way to phrase that!) I base this on the
fact that another advantage, namely Area Effect, specifically states that
the points spent on the advantage aren't considered, i.e. a 6d6 EB Area
Effect is 3" Radius, not 6" Radius.
Of course, unless we're talking MAJOR attacks here, the difference will be
at most 1 END.
>
> The examples in the BBB appear to base the END cost on the active cost
not including
> the Reduced END advantage, but Heromaker bases it on the active cost
including the
> Reduced END advantage.
Actually, Heromaker gives you the option to do it either way. Click on
"More," then "Preferences." The last option listed is "Reduced END Option."
If you activate that, then a 10d6 EB, 1/2 END will show as 2 END, otherwise
it shows as 3 END.
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
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From: CptPatriot <CptPatriot@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 07:49:18 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Gen 13 write-ups
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Has anyone seen any write-ups for the Gen 13 characters using either 4th
edition or Fusion rules?
I recall seeing some for Fusion but have not been able to locate them.
Archie
Cptpatriot@aol.com
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: 24 Apr 1998 08:00:54 EDT
Subject: subscribe
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subscribe
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: Champions Hardcover
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:23:27 -0400
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The cost for the Deluxe hardcover with software is $50.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: GoldRushG [SMTP:GoldRushG@aol.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 1998 7:59 PM
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: Champions Hardcover
>
> << That would be the original fourth edition hardcover book. The "deluxe"
> edition, 4.2 of the rules, includes Heromaker, with a slightly higher
> price
> tag (I want to say around $35-$40). >>
>
> That's not entirely accurate. The Champions Deluxe hardcover includes
> new
> layouts, some typos cleared up and other miscellaneous improvements over
> the
> previous 4th Ed hardcover. However, it is also available without HeroMaker
> (in
> fact, we sold out of the version with the software over a year ago).
>
> The $26 price tag is what the Champions Deluxe *softcover* was selling
> for
> when we had it. Perhaps they had the wrong price (or wrong product/ISBN)
> listed? I don't know; I'm still looking into it.
>
> Mark @ GRG
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From: "Salmon, David W" <dsalmon@crt.xerox.com>
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Teleportation Question
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 06:43:31 PDT
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Hey List of all-knowing gods!!!
I am attempting to make a character who has teleportation as his/her
main power but I am having trouble with modeling some attack powers. How
would you create these abilities ....
1) be able to "Teleport" the engine out of a car. Assume the car is
stationary and the engine weighs about 500 lbs. The question comes up
because the engine is basically "attached" to the entire car and should
the character be allowed to "Teleport" part of the car away or part of
any whole object for that matter? Or should he/she only be allowed to
"Teleport" whole objects only?
2) I see the arch-villain Mr.BadGuy standing 8" from me. I wave my
magic hands and "Teleport" the ground underneath him above his head
(figure a 3 hex diameter section of normal dirt) creating a large hole
under him. Now what I assume happens next is that the earth above him
slams down on him (causing ???d6 damage) and trapping him under it (an
Entangle of some kind??). It sounds cool but how do I build it?? Is it
some complex set of linked powers or just a special effect of the
Entangle?
Any help would be appreciated !!! Thanks in advance.
...Dave S.
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:49:19 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Ed Hero System Rules
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Curtis Gibson
>Just so long as all the artwork isn't new. I feel there should be some
'continuity' from the old. At least one or two pieces of 'legacy'
artwork that have been around since first edition (the Galactus looking
guy with his hand over the planet maybe). Hero has a long history and
soemthing of a tradition. Maybe that can be shown a little with the
artwork.<
Nah, I'd prefer all new artwork. If I saw a bunch of the same pictures,
I'd feel like I bought a recycled product rather than a new book. I've
always hated it when the same art showed up in different supplements for
the same game. I think Champions Universe should have had new art
featuring the various characters, rather than just using the art straight
from the old supplements.
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:49:30 -0400 (EDT)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Tear Gas?
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>I'm trying to build some tear gas grenades and am wondering if these are
>designed right:
>
>27 Tear Gas Grenades: 3d6 Flash vs Sight, 1d6 NND (Def is not needing
> to breathe), AoE Radius 3", 4 shots of 1 Turn each (-1/2), OAF (-1),
> Range based on STR (-1/4), No effect in high winds or rain (-1/4)
>
>1st - do I need to add Continous and Uncontrolled to this power or does
>the Continuing Charge do that for me?
You need Continuous to make it a Continuing Charge; Uncontrolled is assumed
in the Charge limitation 'for free', as I understand it.
>2nd - No effect in high winds or rain - is this a spurious disad since a
>Continous charge should be dispersed by this by default?
I'd keep it. Dumping the tear gas canister in water would be the 'reasonably
common' way to turn it off. Throwing it away would probably shorten the
duration.
>3 - am I missing anything else? Like, should the Flash be NND to?
I'd throw in some DEX Drain, and lower the Flash to 1D6 Continuous.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Now, we get bigger guns."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins and Ron Prins
jprins@interhop.net
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 08:16:45 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: The source of all power?
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Captain Spith wrote:
> That being said, I personally HATE the 'source of all power' concept,
> and have never used it in a game I've run. I don't know why, but having
> a pat explaination just rubs me the wrong way somehow. Just like when
> Star Trek:TNG brought out the idea of the 'seeders'; beings then went
> around the universe, 'seeding' planets for life to evolve, thus making
> all the various aliens in the universe somehow ancestrally connected.
> But then again, that's simply my choice and why I don't use such
> material when I game.
>
I always considered having at least a basic idea why there are
superpowers in a campaign world to be a foundational definition in a
super hero game. The players never need to know it, and there never
needs to be plots built around the theme, but as part of the backstory
of the world, it helps gives definition and structure.
<Example>
In my current Champs game the first supers in the game world showed up
in the timeline when we started the campaign (about '89). There was a
plauge and in it's wake were superpeople, and afterwords people could
change under stress (allowing the normal 'accident prone' type of
origin). Need I mentioned I borrowed heavily from other sources...
anyway. This is all the characters knew for a couple of years. Later on,
one of the space types found out that the plauge is an engeered virus
and universally abhorred- it makes the victims into mindless automatons,
able to serve a slaver race (that has since been wiped out). The player
has kept this information to herself.
That led to the question of why didn't it do that to the humans.
What the players don't know (all except the one Mystic Master in the
group) is that humans were born to be much more powerfull than they are,
and in the dawn of time, those that figured out how to use thier
abilities first, changed the struture of the race to make them 'normal
humans'. Those that weren't changed were the mythologic gods of Greece,
Egypt, and Valhalla ect...
The plauge had 'brought back' whatever it was that was changed at the
dawn of time.
</Example>
With this background, I have let a theme develop over almost 10 years,
no real work, no major plots involved, but dropping pieces of
information here and there. The 'source of all power' idea gave the
campaign some of it's conitinuity and it's unique flavor; all without
destroying any character archtypes or origins (except mutants, but that
is just because supers have only been around 9 years... it would be that
way without all the backstory).
I do agree with you that it can be really annoying, especially when
handled badly- the DC metagene, the marvel tinkeres in the past.. anyone
remember breakthough in the Ultraverse.. UGGG. But handled well it adds
color to a campaign.
I don't think .02 covers it... clink goes the quarter.
--
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages,
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and
goes through their pockets. -- Eddy Peters
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 07:26:51 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re:
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 02:23 PM 4/24/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: 5th Ed Hero System Rules
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>
>Message text written by Curtis Gibson
>>Just so long as all the artwork isn't new. I feel there should be some
>'continuity' from the old. At least one or two pieces of 'legacy'
>artwork that have been around since first edition (the Galactus looking
>guy with his hand over the planet maybe). Hero has a long history and
>soemthing of a tradition. Maybe that can be shown a little with the
>artwork.<
>
>Nah, I'd prefer all new artwork. If I saw a bunch of the same pictures,
>I'd feel like I bought a recycled product rather than a new book. I've
>always hated it when the same art showed up in different supplements for
>the same game. I think Champions Universe should have had new art
>featuring the various characters, rather than just using the art straight
>from the old supplements.
Actually, there was some new artwork in CU, such as the Freedom Squad,
VOICE, and Deathstroke, at the very least.
But I know what you're saying. All I'm referring to, and I think Curtis
is in the same camp, is that it should be *almost* all new artwork, with a
few classics.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 08:44:44 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: 5th Ed Hero System Rules
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> Actually, there was some new artwork in CU, such as the Freedom Squad,
> VOICE, and Deathstroke, at the very least.
> But I know what you're saying. All I'm referring to, and I think Curtis
> is in the same camp, is that it should be *almost* all new artwork, with a
> few classics.
That is exactly what I mean. 4 or 5 pieces of classic artwork scattered
throughout a 256 page book wouldn't seem too bad. 8)
--
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages,
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and
goes through their pockets. -- Eddy Peters
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:53:45 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Ed Hero System Rules
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>Nah, I'd prefer all new artwork. If I saw a bunch of the same pictures,
>I'd feel like I bought a recycled product rather than a new book. I've
>always hated it when the same art showed up in different supplements for
>the same game. I think Champions Universe should have had new art
>featuring the various characters, rather than just using the art straight
>from the old supplements.
I'd have liked some continuity in art as well, but since we've already been
told it'll all be new, I suppose it doesn't matter now what I'd have liked.
It's my understanding, though, that the rules are being clarified where
needed, new material stuck in where appropriate, and a few elements
rewritten; that by and large it's going to be a revision of 4th Edition,
not a top-to-bottom rewrite of the system. (Top to bottom, *review*, yes,
but not everything will need to be changed.) That won't make it feel like
a recycled book, but a few illustrations from the previous book would?
Lest anyone misunderstand, I am *not* suggesting that the 5th Ed rules will
feature only a few, or minor, revisions and thus won't be worth buying. I
plan to get mine the day it becomes available, whatever artwork is or isn't
there. It's just that I'd come to consider a few of the earlier
illustrations to be "Hero classics" (recognizable in much the same way that
some classic comic book covers are immediately recognizable even if spoofed
using different characters) and would have liked to have them carried over.
The pic in the Long Term Endurance section on p. 169, Bases in Space on p.
188, and the Galactus-inspired figure someone else mentioned. Then again,
there are far more pics that I'll be very happy to have replaced, starting
with the painfully twisted body on page S-2 and the effete mage under
Change Environment.
Damon
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/ |
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From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: New Champions Team in Fifth?
To: champ-l@omg.org (champions listserv)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:54:01 -0400 (EDT)
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Hey, since we're on the subject of the fifth edition, does
anyone else feel that the Champions example super-team should
be completely redone with a roster of all new characters?
I mean, not to be critical, but the current roster ranges from
mediochre to seriously lame (<cough> <cough> SEEKER <cough> <cough>).
-Eric
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:29:14 -0700
To: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu&>
champ-l@omg.org (champions listserv)
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
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At 11:54 AM 4/24/98 -0400, Eric Burns wrote:
>Hey, since we're on the subject of the fifth edition, does
>anyone else feel that the Champions example super-team should
>be completely redone with a roster of all new characters?
>I mean, not to be critical, but the current roster ranges from
>mediochre to seriously lame (<cough> <cough> SEEKER <cough> <cough>).
>
Except the current team is nicely archetypal, providing models for the most
common types of characters -- you've got Power Armor Dude, Brick-Man,
Energy Projection Lass, Werewolf Boy, and Chop-Socky Man.
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: "champions listserv" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 03:26:24 +1000
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>
> At 11:54 AM 4/24/98 -0400, Eric Burns wrote:
> >Hey, since we're on the subject of the fifth edition, does
> >anyone else feel that the Champions example super-team should
> >be completely redone with a roster of all new characters?
> >I mean, not to be critical, but the current roster ranges from
> >mediochre to seriously lame (<cough> <cough> SEEKER <cough> <cough>).
> >
> Except the current team is nicely archetypal, providing models for the
most
> common types of characters -- you've got Power Armor Dude, Brick-Man,
> Energy Projection Lass, Werewolf Boy, and Chop-Socky Man.
Not to mention token australian guy. . hey hero! if you need help making
australian supers that don't BITE, drop me a line! *l*
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:34:01 EDT
To: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
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In a message dated 4/24/98 9:03:51 AM, burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu wrote:
<<Hey, since we're on the subject of the fifth edition, does
anyone else feel that the Champions example super-team should
be completely redone with a roster of all new characters?
I mean, not to be critical, but the current roster ranges from
mediochre to seriously lame (<cough> <cough> SEEKER <cough> <cough>).
>>
The question doesn't arise, since we're not working on Champions 5th Edition.
What we're doing is *Hero System* 5th Edition. No genre material or campaign
background material included.
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:52:12 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Ed Hero System Rules
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin"
> It's my understanding, though, that the rules are being clarified where
needed, new material stuck in where appropriate, and a few elements
rewritten; that by and large it's going to be a revision of 4th Edition,
not a top-to-bottom rewrite of the system. (Top to bottom, *review*, yes,
but not everything will need to be changed.) That won't make it feel like
a recycled book, but a few illustrations from the previous book would?<
Yeah, I know it doesn't make much sense, but getting old art would just
make it seem like I'm getting lots less new stuff. Artwork is incredibly
important to me in a superhero game for sparking the imagination (probably
because it's based on comic books, a visual medium). There I go again,
showing my prejudice...I always think of HSR as a superhero system, not a
generic system. If it were up to me, there'd be no pictures of dwarves
wielding axes.... -grin-
>>It's just that I'd come to consider a few of the earlier
illustrations to be "Hero classics" (recognizable in much the same way that
some classic comic book covers are immediately recognizable even if spoofed
using different characters) and would have liked to have them carried
over.<<
How have some of these pictures become classics? I don't have very much
from 3rd edition, but I don't think ANY of the art from 2nd edition was
carried over, and heck, they dumped the whole hero team (The Guardians) and
introduced The Champions. Is there any art that was carried over from 3rd
to 4th? If not, I don't know that any art can be called "classic Hero"
just yet. If it gets reprinted in 5th, then that label would make more
sense to me.
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:52:26 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Cc: champions listserv <champ-l@omg.org>
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Message text written by Eric Burns
>Hey, since we're on the subject of the fifth edition, does
anyone else feel that the Champions example super-team should
be completely redone with a roster of all new characters?
I mean, not to be critical, but the current roster ranges from
mediochre to seriously lame (<cough> <cough> SEEKER <cough> <cough>).<
I agree with you, but I doubt it will happen. However, perhaps they might
consider adding a few members to the team?
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:55:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: "D. Michael Basinger" <dbasinge@arches.uga.edu>
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To: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
cc: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu&>
champions listserv <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
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On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Lizard wrote:
> At 11:54 AM 4/24/98 -0400, Eric Burns wrote:
> >Hey, since we're on the subject of the fifth edition, does
> >anyone else feel that the Champions example super-team should
> >be completely redone with a roster of all new characters?
> >I mean, not to be critical, but the current roster ranges from
> >mediochre to seriously lame (<cough> <cough> SEEKER <cough> <cough>).
> >
> Except the current team is nicely archetypal, providing models for the most
> common types of characters -- you've got Power Armor Dude, Brick-Man,
> Energy Projection Lass, Werewolf Boy, and Chop-Socky Man.
Bring back Gargoyle!!! Bring Back Gargoyle!!!
Mike
--
D. Michael Basinger
dbasinge@arches.uga.edu
http://www.arches.uga.edu/~dbasinge
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:58:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Teleportation Question
To: "Salmon, David W" <dsalmon@crt.xerox.com>
Cc: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Salmon, David W writes:
> Hey List of all-knowing gods!!!
>
> I am attempting to make a character who has teleportation as his/her
> main power but I am having trouble with modeling some attack powers. How
> would you create these abilities ....
>
> 1) be able to "Teleport" the engine out of a car. Assume the car is
> stationary and the engine weighs about 500 lbs. The question comes up
> because the engine is basically "attached" to the entire car and should
> the character be allowed to "Teleport" part of the car away or part of
> any whole object for that matter? Or should he/she only be allowed to
> "Teleport" whole objects only?
Whole objects only. Buy major transform for that effect.
> 2) I see the arch-villain Mr.BadGuy standing 8" from me. I wave my
> magic hands and "Teleport" the ground underneath him above his head
> (figure a 3 hex diameter section of normal dirt) creating a large hole
> under him. Now what I assume happens next is that the earth above him
> slams down on him (causing ???d6 damage) and trapping him under it (an
> Entangle of some kind??). It sounds cool but how do I build it?? Is it
> some complex set of linked powers or just a special effect of the
> Entangle?
It's an entangle, possibly with a linked attack.
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: champ-l@omg.org
Subject: RE: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:20:42 -0400
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You mean sort of like the C:NM Champions team was redone...?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eric Burns [SMTP:burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu]
> Sent: Friday, April 24, 1998 11:54 AM
> To: champ-l@omg.org
> Subject: New Champions Team in Fifth?
>
> Hey, since we're on the subject of the fifth edition, does
> anyone else feel that the Champions example super-team should
> be completely redone with a roster of all new characters?
> I mean, not to be critical, but the current roster ranges from
> mediochre to seriously lame (<cough> <cough> SEEKER <cough> <cough>).
>
> -Eric
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:35:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Tear Gas?
To: Sakura <jeffj@io.com&> Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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---Sakura wrote:
>
> On Thu, 23 Apr 1998, John Desmarais wrote:
> > On Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:40:42 -0400 (EDT), Michael Surbrook wrote:
> > >1st - do I need to add Continous and Uncontrolled to this power
or does
> > >the Continuing Charge do that for me?
> >
> > The rather sketchy (similar) example in the BBB relies exclusively
on the continuing
> > charge (the example is actually a smoke bomb).
>
> Note that the power (Darkness) in that example is already Continuous,
> however. For an attack power to use continuing charges, it needs the
> Continuous advantage.
In the words of Homer Simpson, "Doh!!!"
==
John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
============================================
Got a question about the list? Just ask. Or, you can go
look over at www.sysabend.org/champions. I've been
slowly posting information about the list there.
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Favorite GMing session
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:41:26 -0400
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Does that mean that you don't really have the time any more, are in a place
where you just can't find anyone, or something else?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WG Rowland [SMTP:rowland@cts.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 1998 4:33 PM
> To: Champions
> Subject: Favorite GMing session
>
> God I miss gaming..
>
> WGR
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:50:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champions listserv <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
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> Hey, since we're on the subject of the fifth edition, does
> anyone else feel that the Champions example super-team should
> be completely redone with a roster of all new characters?
> I mean, not to be critical, but the current roster ranges from
> mediochre to seriously lame (<cough> <cough> SEEKER <cough> <cough>).
Harumph. Speaking as one who likes the example team (it is _so_
4-colorish) I'd not like to see this change. Seeker, for one, is a great
example of stereotypes shaken up to a new form.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:53:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Teleportation Question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> 1) be able to "Teleport" the engine out of a car. Assume the car is
> stationary and the engine weighs about 500 lbs. The question comes up
> because the engine is basically "attached" to the entire car and should
> the character be allowed to "Teleport" part of the car away or part of
> any whole object for that matter? Or should he/she only be allowed to
> "Teleport" whole objects only?
Definately a transform: Car w/ engine inside to car w/ engine
outside.
> 2) I see the arch-villain Mr.BadGuy standing 8" from me. I wave my
> magic hands and "Teleport" the ground underneath him above his head
> (figure a 3 hex diameter section of normal dirt) creating a large hole
> under him. Now what I assume happens next is that the earth above him
> slams down on him (causing ???d6 damage) and trapping him under it (an
> Entangle of some kind??). It sounds cool but how do I build it?? Is it
> some complex set of linked powers or just a special effect of the
> Entangle?
Easy. The Entangle could work, when mixed with a linked attack of
some sort related to the dirt dropping. I'd personally go with Tunneling,
Ranged, AE 1 Hex, linked to a small attack.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Ed Hero System Rules
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:56:42 -0400 (EDT)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> >Nah, I'd prefer all new artwork. If I saw a bunch of the same pictures,
> >I'd feel like I bought a recycled product rather than a new book. I've
> >always hated it when the same art showed up in different supplements for
> >the same game. I think Champions Universe should have had new art
> >featuring the various characters, rather than just using the art straight
> >from the old supplements.
>
> I'd have liked some continuity in art as well, but since we've already been
> told it'll all be new, I suppose it doesn't matter now what I'd have liked.
> It's my understanding, though, that the rules are being clarified where
> needed, new material stuck in where appropriate, and a few elements
> rewritten; that by and large it's going to be a revision of 4th Edition,
> not a top-to-bottom rewrite of the system. (Top to bottom, *review*, yes,
> but not everything will need to be changed.) That won't make it feel like
> a recycled book, but a few illustrations from the previous book would?
Just as long as it is good artwork. I have never purchased a rulebook
because it contained great artwork, but I have NOT purchased a rulebook
because of bad artwork/layout. I don't like the Fuzion layout and I hope
the HSR5 layout will be as straight forward as the HSR4 rules. ("If I
want a game filled with sidebars, I play GURPS," he said parenthetically.
:-)
Joe
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:10:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dale Ward <daleaward@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Ed Hero System Rules
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Greetings,
---David B Stallard wrote:
>
> If it were up to me, there'd be no pictures of dwarves wielding axes....
-grin-
>
"Whatta ya got against dwarves, Mac?!?!"
Puck - Alpha Flight
B->
Dale A. Ward
[Did Somebody Say *BLOW UP* McDonald's?]
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:17:40 -0700
To: Eric Burns <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 11:54 AM 4/24/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Hey, since we're on the subject of the fifth edition, does
>anyone else feel that the Champions example super-team should
>be completely redone with a roster of all new characters?
>I mean, not to be critical, but the current roster ranges from
>mediochre to seriously lame (<cough> <cough> SEEKER <cough> <cough>).
I beg to differ, I like the group a lot, and if I could have gotten the
Champions comic I did printed you would have liked them too... they just
werent presented very well. Seeker can be very cool (see Watchers of the
Dragon) if used right.
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:28:17 -0500
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Ed Hero System Rules
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>Yeah, I know it doesn't make much sense, but getting old art would just
>make it seem like I'm getting lots less new stuff. Artwork is incredibly
>important to me in a superhero game for sparking the imagination (probably
>because it's based on comic books, a visual medium). There I go again,
>showing my prejudice...I always think of HSR as a superhero system, not a
>generic system. If it were up to me, there'd be no pictures of dwarves
>wielding axes.... -grin-
I have nearly the same prejudice; I think of Hero as a primarily superhero
RPG, which works equally well for many other genres. However, I still use
The Other Game for my fantasy fix, rather than playing Fantasy Hero. And
though I'd like to play (play, not run) Horror Hero, I've had no
opportunity yet and am using Call of Cthulhu to satisfy that urge on the
rare occasions when I can get a CoC game. If I were selecting artwork for
the book, I'd concentrate on superhero, spy, pulp adventure, martial arts,
Old West and cyberpunk and leave the fantasy element out altogether. This,
of course, makes no sense whatsoever. Just because I don't play FH doesn't
invalidate it as a genre. And magic is an important element of comics and
frequently of horror and pulp adventure, so I'd have to include
spellcasters of some stripe. I think I'd make a little effort to
"modernize" some of the mage pictures, though, so they don't all look like
generic pseudo-Medieval wizards.
>How have some of these pictures become classics? I don't have very much
>from 3rd edition, but I don't think ANY of the art from 2nd edition was
>carried over, and heck, they dumped the whole hero team (The Guardians) and
>introduced The Champions. Is there any art that was carried over from 3rd
>to 4th? If not, I don't know that any art can be called "classic Hero"
>just yet. If it gets reprinted in 5th, then that label would make more
>sense to me.
Classic comic book covers include Action Comics #1, Crisis On Infinite
Earths #7 and many others whose art (except in parody form) wasn't carried
over into another book; the single use was enough. As to why some Hero
illos are considered classics and not others, I don't know, and I suspect
there may not be a great deal of overlap between my list of classics and
other peoples' lists.
Damon
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:43:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Teleportation Question
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
---"Salmon, David W" wrote:
>
> Hey List of all-knowing gods!!!
>
> I am attempting to make a character who has teleportation as his/her
> main power but I am having trouble with modeling some attack powers.
How
> would you create these abilities ....
>
> 1) be able to "Teleport" the engine out of a car. Assume the car is
> stationary and the engine weighs about 500 lbs. The question comes up
> because the engine is basically "attached" to the entire car and
should
> the character be allowed to "Teleport" part of the car away or part of
> any whole object for that matter? Or should he/she only be allowed to
> "Teleport" whole objects only?
>
> 2) I see the arch-villain Mr.BadGuy standing 8" from me. I wave my
> magic hands and "Teleport" the ground underneath him above his head
> (figure a 3 hex diameter section of normal dirt) creating a large hole
> under him. Now what I assume happens next is that the earth above him
> slams down on him (causing ???d6 damage) and trapping him under it (an
> Entangle of some kind??). It sounds cool but how do I build it?? Is it
> some complex set of linked powers or just a special effect of the
> Entangle?
>
> Any help would be appreciated !!! Thanks in advance.
>
>
> ...Dave S.
Don't get to caught up in the sematic of your special effect.
Consider what the actual game effect is. Teleporting the engine out
of car: a honkin' big energy blast (or killing attack) targetted at
the engine or (if you feel really odd) suppress running (no running
means the car ain't going to move, rather like not having an engine).
As for the teleport the ground under someone into the air above them;
you pretty much described how I would do it: energy blast and entagle
linked together. Not really anything special with the entagle, the
special effect is "buried".
-=>John D.
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:50:20 -0500 (CDT)
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: 5th Ed Hero System Rules
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
>
> Classic comic book covers include Action Comics #1, Crisis On Infinite
> Earths #7 and many others whose art (except in parody form) wasn't carried
> over into another book; the single use was enough. As to why some Hero
> illos are considered classics and not others, I don't know, and I suspect
> there may not be a great deal of overlap between my list of classics and
> other peoples' lists.
>
> Damon
>
Action Comics #1 was Superman lifting the car, right ? What was Crisis #7 ?
I collected the series but don't remember the covers..
Curt
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 16:20:54 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Ed Hero System Rules
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Joe Mucchiello
>Just as long as it is good artwork. I have never purchased a rulebook
because it contained great artwork, but I have NOT purchased a rulebook
because of bad artwork/layout. I don't like the Fuzion layout and I hope
the HSR5 layout will be as straight forward as the HSR4 rules. ("If I
want a game filled with sidebars, I play GURPS," he said parenthetically.
:-)<
I also have opted against buying a rulebook because the art was too
cartoony and ruined my perception of the setting. I'll buy 5E regardless
of the art, but art definitely isn't just fluff in my opinion...it helps
convey the setting. I know I'm in the vast minority here, but I love the
art in Champions: New Millennium--it feels like comic book art, whereas
most art in 4E and supplements doesn't seem to match up as closely.
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:32:55 -0700
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Tim Gilberg says:
>Harumph. Speaking as one who likes the example team (it is _so_
>4-colorish) I'd not like to see this change. Seeker, for one, is a
great
>example of stereotypes shaken up to a new form.
I agree. I thought Seeker was a refreshing change from the stereotypical
Asian martial artist.
Dave Mattingly
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 16:40:55 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: HSR vs Champs Deluxe
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Besides the extra section(s?) in Champions Deluxe, can someone tell me the
difference between the Champions Deluxe book and the Hero System Rulebook?
I saw someone mention that CDeluxe has new layouts, but I'm not sure what
that means--is it minor differences or a complete rearranging of the look?
Are they the exact same version of the rules, or is one more updated than
the other? I'm sick and tired of dealing with my version of the Champions
(not Deluxe) hardcover which is in plastic sheets in a 3-ring binder (the
pages fell out of the hardcover soon after purchase), so I've decided to
try buying another book.
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 16:35:28 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Ed Hero System Rules
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>Action Comics #1 was Superman lifting the car, right ? What was Crisis #7 ?
>I collected the series but don't remember the covers..
Correct; Superman lifting the car. Crisis #7 was the death of Supergirl
(the *real* one, not this Matrix creature we've had since the Crisis). The
cover has Superman holding Kara's limp body. I'd have cited several Marvel
covers ahead of that one for recognition factor, but off the top of my head
I couldn't remember issues for sure. Thor premiered in "Journey Into
Mystery" and I couldn't remember whether that was also true of Iron Man or
the Hulk. Fantastic Four #1 might be a good example, though, as well as
Giant-Size X-Men #1 (introduction of Cyclops, Nightcrawler, Banshee and
that group in '74).
It's hard to decide on some of these where to draw the line. I think I'd
count as "classic" any comic cover that is readily recognizable (by comics
fans, anyway) when parodied or shown out of context, but of course that's
subjective based on how familiar the viewer is with older comics.
Damon
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From: "Trimarco, Robert" <Robert.Trimarco@gs.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Teleportation Question
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:57:01 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
The way to simulate multiple teleportation powers and effects you may have
to go with a VPP. a major transform for every single occasion that you want
to teleport a smaller part off of a larger object is ridiculous. the VPP can
contain powers like:
NND killing attacks that do Body (huge advantage) for teleporting major
organs out of a body
large Area Effect energy blasts for teleporting cars on top of targets
Teleport, usable against others, at range. You can put people INTO objects
and use the Teleporting into solid objects table for the damage.
Devastating.
autofire usable against others or area effect usable against others
advantage on an EB (yours or another characters) to simulate co-location of
one attack over a wide area or on just one poor sap opponent.
there are a few ideas.
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 16:58:21 -0500
To: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Ed Hero System Rules
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>Joe Mucchiello:
>Just as long as it is good artwork. I have never purchased a rulebook
>because it contained great artwork, but I have NOT purchased a rulebook
>because of bad artwork/layout. I don't like the Fuzion layout and I hope
>the HSR5 layout will be as straight forward as the HSR4 rules. ("If I
>want a game filled with sidebars, I play GURPS," he said parenthetically.
>:-)
Sidebars don't trouble me, but the use of gray, copier-unfriendly areas in
the text and tables does, as well as the "decorative" border along the
pages...adds nothing, IMO, and is thus a waste of ink.
>David B Stallard:
>I also have opted against buying a rulebook because the art was too
>cartoony and ruined my perception of the setting. I'll buy 5E regardless
>of the art, but art definitely isn't just fluff in my opinion...it helps
>convey the setting. I know I'm in the vast minority here, but I love the
>art in Champions: New Millennium--it feels like comic book art, whereas
>most art in 4E and supplements doesn't seem to match up as closely.
The art in C:NM is very comic book-like, but it's unfortunately like B&W
comics instead of four color comics. That's not just a matter of the
prescence or lack of colored ink. B&W comics tend to use heavier, darker
illustrations. Depending on the skill of the artists, this can be a good
thing and add detail to make up for the lack of eye catching color, but
often it just makes things hard to sort out in the comic frame. Comic art
which will be color-inked isn't usually as heavily drawn, since detail can
be indicated by using color gradations.
I have a rather large assortment of colored pencils around the house, and
have in the past amused myself during slow games by coloring in some of the
black and white line drawings in the BBB or in the case of Other Games,
Deities & Demigods. While this amusement isn't made impossible with the
art in C:NM, there's much less point to it. I can color in skin tones and
background, but with the costumes and equipment, the red parts are already
inked black. So are the blue parts. And the green, brown, dark gray...you
get the idea. I can turn a simpler line drawing into a four-color comic
illustration if I want to. The C:NM art is definitely B&W comic material,
not four-color. Of course, I don't expect this is a consideration for most
players.
Damon
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:07:10 -0500 (CDT)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
To: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk>
cc: Hero System Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org&>
Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, qts wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:54:01 -0400 (EDT), Eric Burns wrote:
>
> >Hey, since we're on the subject of the fifth edition, does
> >anyone else feel that the Champions example super-team should
> >be completely redone with a roster of all new characters?
> >I mean, not to be critical, but the current roster ranges from
> >mediochre to seriously lame (<cough> <cough> SEEKER <cough> <cough>).
>
> It would be nice to have sets of heroes at different power levels (set
> of 50+50, 75+75, 100+150).
As mentioned elsewhere, this is a non-issue, since we're talking Hero
System 5th, rather than Champions 5th (which already exists in the form of
the BBB, IIRC...)
IMHO, this is _long_ overdue; Hero System may have started out in the
Superhero genre, but its uses go far beyond that. Packaging the Hero
System Rules seperate from the Champions Source- and Campaign Books was
a step in the right direction, and doing away with the BBB entirely is
another. Note that I am _not_ saying that Hero Games should stop
supporting the Champions universeand superhero roleplaying; far from it!
The Champions Source- and Campaign Books should still be produced -
_seperately_. Champions 6th should contain _none_ of the Hero System
rules (that's what HSR5 will be for), and should take advantage of the
space thus freed up to either reduce the price of the book or to flesh out
the background even further - or both.
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "Hero System Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org&>
"Eric Burns" <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 98 22:36:45
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:54:01 -0400 (EDT), Eric Burns wrote:
>Hey, since we're on the subject of the fifth edition, does
>anyone else feel that the Champions example super-team should
>be completely redone with a roster of all new characters?
>I mean, not to be critical, but the current roster ranges from
>mediochre to seriously lame (<cough> <cough> SEEKER <cough> <cough>).
It would be nice to have sets of heroes at different power levels (set
of 50+50, 75+75, 100+150).
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:27:58 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Champions Hardcover
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<< The cost for the Deluxe hardcover with software is $50. >>
When they were available, yes, that was the price. ;)
Mark @ GRG
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Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:29:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net>
To: CptPatriot <CptPatriot@aol.com>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Gen 13 write-ups
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
If someone has done them, I have certainly missed them in my scaning of
the web. I have recently started working on the stats of the group for a
Champions one shot adventure. I am re-reading the series(all of the ones
I have...(sigh missed a couple and they seem to be the expensive ones))
If you end up finding a good writeup for them, please let me know. If I
haven't heard anything by the time I get done with my versions, I will put
them up on the web for all the critics to see.
David
On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, CptPatriot wrote:
> Has anyone seen any write-ups for the Gen 13 characters using either 4th
> edition or Fusion rules?
>
> I recall seeing some for Fusion but have not been able to locate them.
>
> Archie
> Cptpatriot@aol.com
>
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:46:54 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: 5th Ed Hero System Rules
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<< Artwork is incredibly important to me in a superhero game >>
That won't be an issue until we publish the superhero genre book (aka
Champions). Right now we're just working on the Hero System Rules book.
Mark @ GRG
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:04:58 EDT
To: DBStallard@compuserve.com
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: HSR vs Champs Deluxe
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<< I'm sick and tired of dealing with my version of the Champions (not Deluxe)
hardcover which is in plastic sheets in a 3-ring binder (the pages fell out of
the hardcover soon after purchase), so I've decided to try buying another
book. >>
Is this an example of someone not reading my posts and announcements, not
remembering them or just plain ignoring them? ;)
Send us your decrepid book plus $3 for S&H and we'll send you a replacement.
Mark @ GRG
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From: "Robert" <baron@stlnet.com>
To: "Champs" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:17:07 -0500
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>Message text written by Eric Burns
>>Hey, since we're on the subject of the fifth edition, does
>anyone else feel that the Champions example super-team should
>be completely redone with a roster of all new characters?
>I mean, not to be critical, but the current roster ranges from
>mediochre to seriously lame (<cough> <cough> SEEKER <cough> <cough>).<
>
>I agree with you, but I doubt it will happen. However, perhaps they might
>consider adding a few members to the team?
>
Get rid of SEEKER? Are you crazy? How else are we going to gauge how good a
product is if it doesn't have seeker getting the crap kicked out of him on
the front?
But seriously, I like the old guard. What I would like to see is the same
heroes a few years later in their carreer with maybe a new member or two in
the mix. Maybe even a west coast team, ala West Coast Avengers. Update Dr.
Destroyer and the rest too and maybe a new villain or two and you have got
one heck of a universe. Don't revamp, refine.
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From: "WG Rowland" <rowland@cts.com>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Will Fuzion ever be complete?
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 18:40:17 -0700
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I picked up the C:NM book a little while back, and found the new stat
system interresting (I never did like the fact that Hero stats didn't sync
up with each other.) But the game system seems, overall, very incomplete..
Basically all it seems to have are conversion rules for other games,
instead of rules for it's own. I realize it's meant to be an "any genre"
system with plug-in rules, but none of the plug-ins seem to be complete..
For example, for heroic gaming, you make a champions character then downsize
it to fusion, same for Mekton and others.. Will there ever be a complete
genre book based on the fuzion system.. I.e if you can convert any Hero
power to fuzion will there ever be a book containing the powers in their
converted notation..?
Just curious..?
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 13:03:33 +1000 (EST)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: RE: Generic reply to everyone who replied.
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 02:31 PM 4/23/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
><snip>
>Well gee, you could... advance a plotline? Role-playing is about story, not
>horsepower. Most people in uol seem to be the type that thing the ultima
>series
>really was a computer role playing game. .. .bit hard to rp with no-one
>else in the game. . .The reason uo is 'dead' is that few people are
>actually roleplaying.
>As opposed to running round hitting things.
>
>I agree, role playing is about story. But a story needs a teller, and an
>audience. Ultima Online is an example of an audience with no story teller.
>The ideas was good, but the game really doesn't supply the tools one needs
>to tell a story (be any sort of GM).. Thus very few get told, and since
>there are no real ref's the few that try usually get theirs muddled up by
>the thousand or so people not involved in the individual story or plotline.
>
Um, a gm is not a storyteller and players are not their audience.
Roleplaying is not meant to be a one-sided or even semi-one sided
deal, and the last thing online rp needs is some guy going round bossing people
around in what, from a plot perspective is a freeform game
. Online rp in this format is about players advancing their character
in the plotline, and intergrating that plot into that of others. The problem
with uol is that you can't intergrate a plotline with someone who doesn't have
one. I've mentioned several times here mu ahem. . . annoyance with gm's who
think of themselves as performaers who can move the pc's around like furniture.
The same thing happens on certain online venues, people trying to domninate
the plot with some ability outside of their character. I see nothing wrong
with a gm hosting an online rpg, but that's not what uol and simmilar games
are about.
"enslve humanity willya?"
Core Alpha PBEM http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/3306/Pbem.htm
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 00:13:30 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: 5th Ed Hero System Rules
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> I have a rather large assortment of colored pencils around the house, and
> have in the past amused myself during slow games by coloring in some of the
> black and white line drawings in the BBB or in the case of Other Games,
> Deities & Demigods. While this amusement isn't made impossible with the
> art in C:NM, there's much less point to it. I can color in skin tones and
> background, but with the costumes and equipment, the red parts are already
> inked black. So are the blue parts. And the green, brown, dark gray...you
> get the idea. I can turn a simpler line drawing into a four-color comic
> illustration if I want to. The C:NM art is definitely B&W comic material,
> not four-color. Of course, I don't expect this is a consideration for most
> players.
I'm right in there with you on this one! All of my gaming books are
mostly if not completely coloured in. It's interesting what different
looks the same character can have simply by changing costume and/or skin
colour. I often use published characters in my game, though the actual
character sheets seldom look the same, I find it convenient to have a
ready picture to show my players. Colouring them helps individualize
them for my campaign, and gives the players some idea of their nature;
darker, more utilitarian colours generally indicate nastier or more
serous villians, while Foxbat has brighter, more 'fun' colouring.
Plus, I can tell at a glance which BBB is mine out of the pile that
shows up at a given game.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 00:53:53 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> But seriously, I like the old guard. What I would like to see is the same
> heroes a few years later in their carreer with maybe a new member or two in
> the mix. Maybe even a west coast team, ala West Coast Avengers. Update Dr.
> Destroyer and the rest too and maybe a new villain or two and you have got
> one heck of a universe. Don't revamp, refine.
I really liked the format they used in Strike Force; each major
character presented had two writeups; one for the character as created,
and one for the same character after 50-100 or so experience. This
could be well used to illustrate A)The benefits of starting at lower
levels and growing with experience (which I strongly support) as opposed
to dumping large amounts of points into beginning characters, and
B)showing the various ways of spending experience; some characters buy
more power for their attacks, some characters buy more skills and
concentrate on versatility, and others work on buying off
disadvantages. That last one is almost unheard of, in my experience,
and should be specifically shown for it's usefulness as compared to
simply buying more 'stuff'.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 01:09:31 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Dataweaver wrote:
> IMHO, this is _long_ overdue; Hero System may have started out in the
> Superhero genre, but its uses go far beyond that. Packaging the Hero
> System Rules seperate from the Champions Source- and Campaign Books was
> a step in the right direction, and doing away with the BBB entirely is
> another. Note that I am _not_ saying that Hero Games should stop
> supporting the Champions universeand superhero roleplaying; far from it!
> The Champions Source- and Campaign Books should still be produced -
> _seperately_.
I have to at least partially disagree here. Yes, producing the bare
Hero System Rules in their own book is good and right (Thus HSR 4th ed.
rules), but regardless of all progress and improvement the Hero System
has gone through lo these many years, it is STILL best and most
effectively represented in the Superhero genre. There is a particular
RPG Law of Nature I have learned; the Superhero Genre (and its source
material, comic books) works most effectively on a different scale that
nearly any other genre. What this ends up meaning is that RPGs
originally created for normal human-level adventuring (Including
'fantasy' genre adventuring) when adapted to Superheroics yield
characters seeming somewhat underpowered in comparison to 'classic'
4-colour examples from comics. OTOH, RPGs designed originally for
Superheroics have some level of difficulty 'toning down' to
normal/fantasy-level gaming in comparison to classic examples from
appropriate literature. In Hero's case specifically, a certain level of
detail in the variation between different characters is lost. This is
not really a 'fault' insomuch as it is an inevitable (or very nearly so)
result of the dichotomy between supers and 'normals' as expressed in
game stats.
My point being (finally...) that the system is strongest and most
often identified with superheroics, and rightly so, and while the
HSRules should be available as a stand-alone tome, it should continue to
be packaged along with the Champions sourcebook for convenience and
economy to the consumer, because it is commonly enough purchased for the
purposes of superhero gaming.
At least, I think so...
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 01:23:03 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Goode, Jason wrote:
>
> You mean sort of like the C:NM Champions team was redone...?
Ugh! I was significantly unimpressed with the New Champions. Not
Hero's fault, they were following the trend in comics; I have been
significantly unimpressed with that particular trend in comics.
I think the team(s) presented in any upcoming Champions Sourcebook
5th ed., should be 1)The Champions, not redone, but updated and
redesigned with the same simple archetypal concepts, 2)The Gaurdians,
updated the same way, with as much of their original flavour as
possible, and 3)Keep the Standard Roster of Villians from the back of
the BBB (Brick, Dragonfly, Howler, etc.)
Personally, I really like having a team (or so) of Standard
Archetypes, though I can never bring myself to play them 'straight'. In
my current campaign, the Champions are pompous, blowhard semi-heroes
worried more about their publicity than sincere heroing. My players
actually seem to have a lot of fun with the concept; kind of a twist on
'replacing the old gaurd'.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 01:33:20 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: Champions listserv <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
D. Michael Basinger wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Lizard wrote:
>
> > At 11:54 AM 4/24/98 -0400, Eric Burns wrote:
> > >Hey, since we're on the subject of the fifth edition, does
> > >anyone else feel that the Champions example super-team should
> > >be completely redone with a roster of all new characters?
> > >I mean, not to be critical, but the current roster ranges from
> > >mediochre to seriously lame (<cough> <cough> SEEKER <cough> <cough>).
> > >
> > Except the current team is nicely archetypal, providing models for the most
> > common types of characters -- you've got Power Armor Dude, Brick-Man,
> > Energy Projection Lass, Werewolf Boy, and Chop-Socky Man.
>
> Bring back Gargoyle!!! Bring Back Gargoyle!!!
>
> Mike
>
> --
> D. Michael Basinger
> dbasinge@arches.uga.edu
> http://www.arches.uga.edu/~dbasinge
Hell, Bring Back Mark Williams! Bring Back Mark Williams *sigh* nostalgia....
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 01:34:09 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Stupid Heroes (was The Average man...)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> One I did once for a silly game was The Grocer. He fought for, "Truth,
> Justice, and preventing people from squeezing the Charmin." He had Armor in
> the form of a leather apron, and a mystical grocery bag out of which he
> could pull _anything_. The last time I saw him, he was trying to pull an
> octopus launcher out of the bag, in order to more accurately throw his
> octopus Entangle. Side effects of a failed roll varied, but in this case a
> tentacle came out of the bag and dragged him into it.:)
I had two favorite 'Invincible' archetypes that I saved for the more
lighthearted games;
Billy Invincible. He had average stats all around, with mid-level
'Brick' defenses, and about 20 BODY regeneration always on. The 'always
on' meant that when he was not taking damage, he'd leave little flesh
puddles everywhere he went, his excess regeneration sloughing off the
excess as it was made.
Kent. He was much the same, except that he spent all his points on
defenses of all kinds. He had a few inches of flight, and a few points
in stats to allow him to basically 'interact' with supers, but that was
about it. He was completely delusional and believed he was Superman's
brother. He was insane enough such that if he was told that he couldn't
fly, suddenly he couldn't.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Charges (was Tear Gas)
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 25 Apr 1998 08:14:50 -0400
Lines: 27
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Rick Holding writes:
> Okay... Being aware that I came in waaay later than the discussion
> about do you need continuous on continuing charges and also that the "rule"
> is in the FAQ which is considered "semi"(?) legal, I ask my question.
Yes, Continuing Charges requires a continuous (constant) power. That is an
official ruling. Continuing Charges is intended to be used on powers that
are already constant, things like Darkness for instance. It does not make
an instant power constant -- that is a separate advantage.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
\ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 08:20:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, Chad Riley wrote:
> Hell, Bring Back Mark Williams! Bring Back Mark Williams *sigh* nostalgia....
Uh... no thanks. *I* can draw significantly better then Mark Williams and
I have *no* desire to see his artwork re-appear in any Hero product.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 06:06:28 -0700
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Ed Hero System Rules
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 02:28 PM 4/24/1998 -0500, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>Classic comic book covers include Action Comics #1, Crisis On Infinite
>Earths #7 and many others whose art (except in parody form) wasn't carried
>over into another book; the single use was enough. As to why some Hero
>illos are considered classics and not others, I don't know, and I suspect
>there may not be a great deal of overlap between my list of classics and
>other peoples' lists.
If you want a perfect example of a classic comic book cover, check
Fantastic Four #1 (Cf. Invasions From Below).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 23:06:58 +1000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
----------
> From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
> Date: Saturday, April 25, 1998 6:09 PM
>
> Dataweaver wrote:
>
> > IMHO, this is _long_ overdue; Hero System may have started out in the
> > Superhero genre, but its uses go far beyond that. Packaging the Hero
> > System Rules seperate from the Champions Source- and Campaign Books was
> > a step in the right direction, and doing away with the BBB entirely is
> > another. Note that I am _not_ saying that Hero Games should stop
> > supporting the Champions universeand superhero roleplaying; far from
it!
> > The Champions Source- and Campaign Books should still be produced -
> > _seperately_.
>
> I have to at least partially disagree here. Yes, producing the bare
> Hero System Rules in their own book is good and right (Thus HSR 4th ed.
> rules), but regardless of all progress and improvement the Hero System
> has gone through lo these many years, it is STILL best and most
> effectively represented in the Superhero genre. There is a particular
> RPG Law of Nature I have learned; the Superhero Genre (and its source
> material, comic books) works most effectively on a different scale that
> nearly any other genre. What this ends up meaning is that RPGs
> originally created for normal human-level adventuring (Including
> 'fantasy' genre adventuring) when adapted to Superheroics yield
> characters seeming somewhat underpowered in comparison to 'classic'
> 4-colour examples from comics. OTOH, RPGs designed originally for
> Superheroics have some level of difficulty 'toning down' to
> normal/fantasy-level gaming in comparison to classic examples from
> appropriate literature. In Hero's case specifically, a certain level of
> detail in the variation between different characters is lost. This is
> not really a 'fault' insomuch as it is an inevitable (or very nearly so)
> result of the dichotomy between supers and 'normals' as expressed in
> game stats.
>
In my opinion, I really don't think this is a valid point. What is lost?
nothing really the same level of detail is there, and there is more
character variation in hero than most other games.
The only place normals even slightly 'lose out' is the range of stat
variation, but frankly I consider that kinda inconsequential and not the
focus of a character of that sort. And hero has 10-20 where say, ad&d has
9-18- plus all that extra twaddle on str. Could you please specify what you
men by
> a certain level of
> detail in the variation between different characters
?
because all i
can come up with is the emphasis given to different roles in class-based
systems, and frankly that's really an artifact of the *setting*, not the
mechanics.
> My point being (finally...) that the system is strongest and most
> often identified with superheroics, and rightly so, and while the
> HSRules should be available as a stand-alone tome, it should continue to
> be packaged along with the Champions sourcebook for convenience and
> economy to the consumer, because it is commonly enough purchased for the
> purposes of superhero gaming.
>
I'd really say this has a lot more to do with your perception of the
system.
The fact that HERO is one of the few systems to properly portray
superheroic characters *and* attempt to portray other power levels of
characters in detailed/pc
format almost sets it up for this sort of analasis. That said, i do agree
that the hero
system rules should be included in the champions sourcebook, for the resons
you gave in the last sentence.
> At least, I think so...
>
>
Well i don't. and that's all i'm stating, my opinion. . .
*backs slowly away*
please don't take that 'backs' coment personaly
*backs slowly away from backing away ..*
> --
> -Capt. Spith
> Savior of Humanity
> Secular Messiah
>
>
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Stupid Heroes (was The Average man...)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 23:10:30 +1000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> I had two favorite 'Invincible' archetypes that I saved for the more
> lighthearted games;
>
> Billy Invincible. He had average stats all around, with mid-level
> 'Brick' defenses, and about 20 BODY regeneration always on. The 'always
> on' meant that when he was not taking damage, he'd leave little flesh
> puddles everywhere he went, his excess regeneration sloughing off the
> excess as it was made.
>
> Kent. He was much the same, except that he spent all his points on
> defenses of all kinds. He had a few inches of flight, and a few points
> in stats to allow him to basically 'interact' with supers, but that was
> about it. He was completely delusional and believed he was Superman's
> brother. He was insane enough such that if he was told that he couldn't
> fly, suddenly he couldn't.
>
>
heh. my faorite was diehard, who just wouldn't die! he was made in response
to a
mad slasher who loved telling people to shut up as they gargled out their
last words. . . . so i gave him enormous absorbtion to body, and huge
recovery, so youeah you can take him down- but he's not staying there. . .
and boy can he talk. ..
> --
> -Capt. Spith
> Savior of Humanity
> Secular Messiah
>
>
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 23:12:26 +1000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
----------
> From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
> Date: Saturday, April 25, 1998 5:53 PM
>
> > But seriously, I like the old guard. What I would like to see is the
same
> > heroes a few years later in their carreer with maybe a new member or
two in
> > the mix. Maybe even a west coast team, ala West Coast Avengers. Update
Dr.
> > Destroyer and the rest too and maybe a new villain or two and you have
got
> > one heck of a universe. Don't revamp, refine.
>
> I really liked the format they used in Strike Force; each major
> character presented had two writeups; one for the character as created,
> and one for the same character after 50-100 or so experience. This
> could be well used to illustrate A)The benefits of starting at lower
> levels and growing with experience (which I strongly support) as opposed
> to dumping large amounts of points into beginning characters, and
> B)showing the various ways of spending experience; some characters buy
> more power for their attacks, some characters buy more skills and
> concentrate on versatility, and others work on buying off
> disadvantages. That last one is almost unheard of, in my experience,
> and should be specifically shown for it's usefulness as compared to
> simply buying more 'stuff'.
>
I tend to do supers up with incrememts of 50 xp so you have starting, and
all the way up to 400 pts. Although i admit this was more about balancind
the heroes
power level. . .
> --
> -Capt. Spith
> Savior of Humanity
> Secular Messiah
>
>
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-6,10-12
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 09:17:13 EDT
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>> It would be nice to have sets of heroes at different power levels (set
>> of 50+50, 75+75, 100+150).
>
>As mentioned elsewhere, this is a non-issue, since we're talking Hero
>System 5th, rather than Champions 5th (which already exists in the
>form of the BBB, IIRC...)
True, but a wider range of sample characters would still help, and they
wouldn't all have to be Champions characters -- bring in samples from
other genres. OK, the 100+150 would be superhero range, but the others
could be anything from pulp to SF to fantasy to whatever.
Leah
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 06:21:34 -0700
To: champ-l@omg.org (champions listserv)
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 11:54 AM 4/24/1998 -0400, Eric Burns wrote:
>Hey, since we're on the subject of the fifth edition, does
>anyone else feel that the Champions example super-team should
>be completely redone with a roster of all new characters?
>I mean, not to be critical, but the current roster ranges from
>mediochre to seriously lame (<cough> <cough> SEEKER <cough> <cough>).
Well, I guess it's already been pointed out that the Champions example
super-team is not under the subject of the Fifth Edition rulebook.
OTOH I would like to get a sort of "gestalt" idea of what characters the
folks on the list could come up with who would make up an all-new sample
team. Start with a CU version of Behemoth as the resident
brick/shapeshifter; let's add a mage, a martial artist, en energy
projector, a mentalist, a gadgeteer, a battlesuit, and a speedster (include
at least one more combination type in that).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 06:24:43 -0700
To: champions <champ-l@omg.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:55 PM 4/24/1998 -0400, D. Michael Basinger wrote:
>> Except the current team is nicely archetypal, providing models for the most
>> common types of characters -- you've got Power Armor Dude, Brick-Man,
>> Energy Projection Lass, Werewolf Boy, and Chop-Socky Man.
>
>Bring back Gargoyle!!! Bring Back Gargoyle!!!
Now, there's something that won't happen. Hero Games doesn't own the
rights to Gargoyle, and never did. They only got to put him in publication
as long as Mark Williams (who does own the character) was working for them.
Bringing back Gargoyle would require bringing back Mark, and while I don't
mind his artwork so much a lot of folks on this list have expressed a sound
dislike for it.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 06:31:12 -0700
To: "Champs" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 08:17 PM 4/24/1998 -0500, Robert wrote:
>Get rid of SEEKER? Are you crazy? How else are we going to gauge how good a
>product is if it doesn't have seeker getting the crap kicked out of him on
>the front?
>
>But seriously, I like the old guard. What I would like to see is the same
>heroes a few years later in their carreer with maybe a new member or two in
>the mix. Maybe even a west coast team, ala West Coast Avengers. Update Dr.
>Destroyer and the rest too and maybe a new villain or two and you have got
>one heck of a universe. Don't revamp, refine.
Actually this is kinda what I was going to do with Champions Universe
2nd Edition: the old Champions team reprinted from their Ultimate Book
listings, with the addition of a couple of members (Warhawk will be in
TUSV, and I've given that Juan Allen kid mentioned in the first edition of
CU the name Firedragon), plus plans on an all-new, younger team that can be
used as sample PCs (I'm leaning toward a "New Freedom Squad" with Black
Phantom acting as mentor, American Eagle II retired, and the other two
moved away). For villains, Doctor D, Eurostar, Foxbat, the Ultimates, plus
quick write-ups of COIL, Genocide, and VIPER (I'm probably leaving out some
groups and organizations from what I had in mind, but you get the idea).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 06:40:54 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Teleportation Question
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 12:43 PM 4/24/1998 -0700, John Desmarais wrote:
>---"Salmon, David W" wrote:
>>
>> Hey List of all-knowing gods!!!
>>
>> I am attempting to make a character who has teleportation as his/her
>> main power but I am having trouble with modeling some attack powers.
>How
>> would you create these abilities ....
>>
>> 1) be able to "Teleport" the engine out of a car. Assume the car is
>> stationary and the engine weighs about 500 lbs. The question comes up
>> because the engine is basically "attached" to the entire car and
>should
>> the character be allowed to "Teleport" part of the car away or part of
>> any whole object for that matter? Or should he/she only be allowed to
>> "Teleport" whole objects only?
>>
>> 2) I see the arch-villain Mr.BadGuy standing 8" from me. I wave my
>> magic hands and "Teleport" the ground underneath him above his head
>> (figure a 3 hex diameter section of normal dirt) creating a large hole
>> under him. Now what I assume happens next is that the earth above him
>> slams down on him (causing ???d6 damage) and trapping him under it (an
>> Entangle of some kind??). It sounds cool but how do I build it?? Is it
>> some complex set of linked powers or just a special effect of the
>> Entangle?
>
>Don't get to caught up in the sematic of your special effect.
>Consider what the actual game effect is. Teleporting the engine out
>of car: a honkin' big energy blast (or killing attack) targetted at
>the engine or (if you feel really odd) suppress running (no running
>means the car ain't going to move, rather like not having an engine).
Actually it'd be a little more like Dispel Running. (If you use
Suppress, then the engine would return to the car, in perfect working
order, as soon as that Constant Power is shut off.)
>As for the teleport the ground under someone into the air above them;
>you pretty much described how I would do it: energy blast and entagle
>linked together. Not really anything special with the entagle, the
>special effect is "buried".
Actually I'd use Tunnelling UAO and EB (with a 1 segment delay for -1/4)
Linked together.
---
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From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net>
To: <cptspith@teleport.com&> <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: 5th Ed Hero System Rules
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 08:42:25 -0500
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-----Original Message-----
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Saturday, April 25, 1998 4:52 AM
Subject: Re: 5th Ed Hero System Rules
>> I have a rather large assortment of colored pencils around the house, and
>> have in the past amused myself during slow games by coloring in some of
the
>> black and white line drawings in the BBB or in the case of Other Games,
>> Deities & Demigods. While this amusement isn't made impossible with the
>> art in C:NM, there's much less point to it. I can color in skin tones
and
>> background, but with the costumes and equipment, the red parts are
already
>> inked black. So are the blue parts. And the green, brown, dark
gray...you
>> get the idea. I can turn a simpler line drawing into a four-color comic
>> illustration if I want to. The C:NM art is definitely B&W comic
material,
>> not four-color. Of course, I don't expect this is a consideration for
most
>> players.
>
> I'm right in there with you on this one! All of my gaming books are
>mostly if not completely coloured in. It's interesting what different
>looks the same character can have simply by changing costume and/or skin
>colour. I often use published characters in my game, though the actual
>character sheets seldom look the same, I find it convenient to have a
>ready picture to show my players. Colouring them helps individualize
>them for my campaign, and gives the players some idea of their nature;
>darker, more utilitarian colours generally indicate nastier or more
>serous villians, while Foxbat has brighter, more 'fun' colouring.
>
> Plus, I can tell at a glance which BBB is mine out of the pile that
>shows up at a given game.
Personally my biggest plug woud be for an index in all versions of the game.
I have Hero system rules, not because it was cheeper than the BBB, but
because it has an index.
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:37:54 -0400
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: HSR+Champ=Too Big (was Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 11:06 PM 4/25/98 +1000, happyelf wrote:
>> while the
>> HSRules should be available as a stand-alone tome, it should continue to
>> be packaged along with the Champions sourcebook for convenience and
>> economy to the consumer, because it is commonly enough purchased for the
>> purposes of superhero gaming.
>That said, i do agree that the hero
>system rules should be included in the champions sourcebook, for the resons
>you gave in the last sentence.
Unfortunately, the rules are going to be too big to include the champions
source book. The current rule book is 213 pages and if you include even
half of the stuff that was mentioned in the survey, that will probably add
another 20-30 pages. That brings the book into the 256 page range if you
include a few more examples and add an index. Adding in the additional 58
pages for the source book and the 70 pages for the campaign setting and you
end up with a book that will fall apart after a few years of use, just like
the other book. Besides, I always thought that the sourcebook and campaign
setting should have been bigger that 128 pages. This is the flagship
product and only 128 pages are specific to the superhero genre.
Joe
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:17:37 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: The source of all power?/origins?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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>> Well, David Brin had one or two in _Earth_, as I recall.
>>
> There were a few in the Sun in Robert Forward's Dragon's Egg, and millions
> in the Earth's core in James P. Hogan's Thrice Upon a Time.
Oh, okay. But none in any comics or game products that you're aware of?
Mark @ GRG
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 13:12:07 -0400
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Bob Greenwade wrote:
>>>
At 01:55 PM 4/24/1998 -0400, D. Michael Basinger wrote:
>Bring back Gargoyle!!! Bring Back Gargoyle!!!
Now, there's something that won't happen. Hero Games doesn't own the
rights to Gargoyle, and never did. They only got to put him in publication
as long as Mark Williams (who does own the character) was working for them.
Bringing back Gargoyle would require bringing back Mark, and while I don't
mind his artwork so much a lot of folks on this list have expressed a sound
dislike for it.
<<<
Mark skimped a bit on the details (like the bending eye-beam on
the 1st/2nd edition cover because he didn't have a straight
edge handy) and had his quirks (visible nipples on all the women
in tight costumes), but I generally liked his art and kind of
miss it - it had a good comic book feel. I still use his
character sketch templates; I used to photocopy them into 3rd + 4th
edition character sheets, and now have them scanned into my
custom Quark Xpress sheets.
I am also the proud possessor of the signed original artwork for
the sketch on the Champions II agent sheet! (Mark used to work
with a friend of mine, who also shared a house with Ray Greer.)
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:15:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champions <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Now, there's something that won't happen. Hero Games doesn't own the
> rights to Gargoyle, and never did. They only got to put him in publication
> as long as Mark Williams (who does own the character) was working for them.
Was Gargoyle part of the Guardians or the original Champions?
Heck, I'm confused enough that I don't recall the specifics of either.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:35:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
To: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, Captain Spith wrote:
> Dataweaver wrote:
>
> > IMHO, this is _long_ overdue; Hero System may have started out in the
> > Superhero genre, but its uses go far beyond that. Packaging the Hero
> > System Rules seperate from the Champions Source- and Campaign Books
> > was a step in the right direction, and doing away with the BBB
> > entirely is another. Note that I am _not_ saying that Hero Games
> > should stop supporting the Champions universeand superhero
> > roleplaying; far from it! The Champions Source- and Campaign Books
> > should still be produced - _seperately_.
>
> I have to at least partially disagree here. Yes, producing the bare
> Hero System Rules in their own book is good and right (Thus HSR 4th ed.
> rules), but regardless of all progress and improvement the Hero System
> has gone through lo these many years, it is STILL best and most
> effectively represented in the Superhero genre. There is a particular
> RPG Law of Nature I have learned; the Superhero Genre (and its source
> material, comic books) works most effectively on a different scale that
> nearly any other genre. What this ends up meaning is that RPGs
> originally created for normal human-level adventuring (Including
> 'fantasy' genre adventuring) when adapted to Superheroics yield
> characters seeming somewhat underpowered in comparison to 'classic'
> 4-colour examples from comics. OTOH, RPGs designed originally for
> Superheroics have some level of difficulty 'toning down' to
> normal/fantasy-level gaming in comparison to classic examples from
> appropriate literature. In Hero's case specifically, a certain level of
> detail in the variation between different characters is lost. This is
> not really a 'fault' insomuch as it is an inevitable (or very nearly so)
> result of the dichotomy between supers and 'normals' as expressed in
> game stats.
Hmm? I've never really noticed a loss of variation between characters...
Unless you're referring to the round-off break-points in the system (and
I've dealt with that with a simple house rule of "round things to the
nearest tenth instead of the nearest whole number"), which is more
game-play mechanics than it is character design mechanics.
> My point being (finally...) that the system is strongest and most
> often identified with superheroics, and rightly so, and while the
> HSRules should be available as a stand-alone tome, it should continue to
> be packaged along with the Champions sourcebook for convenience and
> economy to the consumer, because it is commonly enough purchased for the
> purposes of superhero gaming.
While I agree that Hero System is most often identified with superheroics,
I don't agree that it is implicitly better at handling them than anything
else (and if it is, that's a flaw in the system that needs correcting),
nor do I agree that it _should_ be identified primarily with superheroics;
doing so tends to blind people to the other possibilities of the system,
and if they're not interested in superheroics, it means that they'll never
bother to try Hero System.
Besides, packaging HSR with the Champions sourcebook might be convenient,
but it _wouldn't_ be economical; I'd much rather see that space being used
to expand on the Champions universe instead of reprinting rules which are
available elsewhere. And there's nothing about the Champions sourcebook
which warrants preferential treatment of this sort; if you package the HSR
with the Champions sourcebook, you should also package it with the Fantasy
Hero sourcebook and the Western Hero sourcebook and the Star Hero
sourcebook and the Cyber Hero sourcebook...
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 14:09:16 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: HSR+Champ=Too Big (was Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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In a message dated 4/25/98 7:39:41 AM, why@superlink.net wrote:
<<Unfortunately, the rules are going to be too big to include the champions
source book.>>
You're quite right. The 5th Edition Hero System rules will be 256 pages
(possibly more, though we'll try real hard to keep it to that for cost
reasons). A good genre book treatment requires at least 128 pages (at
minimum), and it's not unreasonable at all to spend 200 or more pages on it
(see Fantasy Hero). A campaign setting can take at least 128 pages, and
certainly benefits by more pages. Since 256 pages is a $25 book, adding in any
of the other material mentioned would result in an unwieldy, very expensive
work ($40 or more). So we will not be putting all of those books (or even two
of those books) into one product. It would not be a viable product at retail.
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 13:46:07 -0500 (CDT)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
To: Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, Leah L Watts wrote:
> >> It would be nice to have sets of heroes at different power levels (set
> >> of 50+50, 75+75, 100+150).
> >
> >As mentioned elsewhere, this is a non-issue, since we're talking Hero
> >System 5th, rather than Champions 5th (which already exists in the
> >form of the BBB, IIRC...)
>
> True, but a wider range of sample characters would still help, and they
> wouldn't all have to be Champions characters -- bring in samples from
> other genres. OK, the 100+150 would be superhero range, but the others
> could be anything from pulp to SF to fantasy to whatever.
Agreed; a wider range of sample characters would be great. The HSR (4th)
contained three samples, IIRC; one Star Hero character, one Fantasy Hero
character, and one Champions character. What I'd like to see would be
sample characters with more versatility: A gadgeteer designed for Star
Hero, with a beefed-up version suitable for Champions; a shapeshifter
usable either as an antagonist in Horror Hero or as an anti-hero in
Champions; a mage designed for Fantasy Hero, with a beefed-up version for
Champions; a martial artist designed for Cyber Hero or Dark Champions; a
battlesuit designed for a conjectured "Mecha Hero" which could double as a
battlesuited Champion; a mentalist who could be used in Horror Hero or
Star Hero; a non-human brick suitable for use as a Fantasy Hero/Star Hero
'monster', or as a Champions hero; an assassin usable for nearly any
campaign (just change the VBackground and a few details on the character
sheet); a cop suitable for modern or futuristic campaigns as a PC, or as a
Champions NPC; a scholar; a medic... the list goes on and on...
The idea is that the sample characters in HSR5 should reinforce the notion
that Hero System is good for much more than superhero roleplaying, and
should put emphasis on "this can be used for _any_ genre" - as opposed to
"this can be used for superheroics - oh, and other genres as well..."
Likewise with the artwork; while there should be artwork depicting
superheroes, there should _also_ be artwork depicting axe-wielding
dwarves, blaster-wielding aliens, spies, etc. One of the main selling
points for me with HSR4 was the artwork on the back cover...
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:43:07 -0700
To: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com&> Leah L Watts <llwatts@juno.com>
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 01:46 PM 4/25/98 -0500, Dataweaver wrote:
>Likewise with the artwork; while there should be artwork depicting
>superheroes, there should _also_ be artwork depicting axe-wielding
>dwarves, blaster-wielding aliens, spies, etc. One of the main
selling
>points for me with HSR4 was the artwork on the back cover...
>
Permit me to agree -- that back cover art, more than anything, said,
"This is what HERO is about". And I could probably build every
character there, except maybe the funny-animal dog.
If any art is reused from 4th-5th, it ought to be that piece.
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 13:25:37 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Charges (was Tear Gas)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
John and Ron Prins wrote:
> >1st - do I need to add Continous and Uncontrolled to this power or does
> >the Continuing Charge do that for me?
>
> You need Continuous to make it a Continuing Charge; Uncontrolled is assumed
> in the Charge limitation 'for free', as I understand it.
Okay... Being aware that I came in waaay later than the discussion about
do you need continuous on continuing charges and also that the "rule" is in the
FAQ which is considered "semi"(?) legal, I ask my question.
The charges section of the BBB, page 103 to be specific, has a section
on Continuing Charges. It states that a charge lasts for a phase at most. To
make a charge last longer, you use the continuing charge option. It goes on to
say that this can only be used with powers with charges. Then in brackets
it states "Use the Power Advantage Continuous if the Power does not have
Charges." The implication is that if you have continuing charges, you DONT need
the Continuous advantage. So what was the reasoning for saying that you do?
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: The source of all power?
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 16:43:28 -0700
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On Friday, April 24, 1998 3:58 AM, Captain Spith wrote:
<snip>
>
> That being said, I personally HATE the 'source of all power'
concept,
>and have never used it in a game I've run. I don't know why, but
having
>a pat explaination just rubs me the wrong way somehow. Just like
when
>Star Trek:TNG brought out the idea of the 'seeders'; beings then went
>around the universe, 'seeding' planets for life to evolve, thus
making
>all the various aliens in the universe somehow ancestrally connected.
I liked it for one reason. It wasn't _all_ the aliens, it was the
_humanoid_ ones.
This was a good explanation for why all these alien races looked so
very similar. I mean, the ancestral Klingon creature shown in the
episode where the crew regressed looked _nothing_ like anything in
_my_ family tree, but Worf is still so similar to a human that he has
Alexander for a son, whose mother was half-human, half-Klingon. By any
reasonable standard, that should be more than impossible. After all,
chimpanzees are +95% identical to humans in overall genetics, but
aliens born on other worlds have been stated outright to have _no_
components that are not distinctive to their personal ancestry.
Filksinger
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 18:47:29 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 05:16 PM 4/25/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
>Cc: champions <champ-l@omg.org>
>Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
>
>> Now, there's something that won't happen. Hero Games doesn't own the
>> rights to Gargoyle, and never did. They only got to put him in publication
>> as long as Mark Williams (who does own the character) was working for them.
>
> Was Gargoyle part of the Guardians or the original Champions?
>Heck, I'm confused enough that I don't recall the specifics of either.
The Guardians, whose existance did not continue into the new CU. The
original Champions (per CU, at least) were Defender, Centurion, Quantum,
Jaguar, Mecha, and Peregrine; the BBB version, of coruse, are Seeker,
Obsidian, Jaguar, Quantum, Defender, and Solitaire.
If you're referring to the Champions comic, I don't remember if Gargoyle
was ever a part of that. If you mean the original Champions in the New
Millennium world, I doubt that he's even mentioned (though I think there's
a pastiche of him in the historical section).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 22:09:32 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Bob Greenwade wrote:
> If you're referring to the Champions comic, I don't remember if Gargoyle
> was ever a part of that. If you mean the original Champions in the New
> Millennium world, I doubt that he's even mentioned (though I think there's
> a pastiche of him in the historical section).
Nope, he was not in the comic. Although in the 6 issue limited series
that started it, he was mentioned. When Giant was recruited someone (I
think flare or icestar) mentioned that with Gargoyle gone they needed
his strength. Giant asked where he was, and one of the two said 'ah
never mind, it's just good to have you back.'
--
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages,
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and
goes through their pockets. -- Eddy Peters
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 23:52:40 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> The Guardians, whose existance did not continue into the new CU. The
> original Champions (per CU, at least) were Defender, Centurion, Quantum,
> Jaguar, Mecha, and Peregrine; the BBB version, of coruse, are Seeker,
> Obsidian, Jaguar, Quantum, Defender, and Solitaire.
Ah yes, then the original Champions weren't ever published? I've
seen the info in CU.
And the Guardians were Gargoyle, Marksman, Atlas? and Icestar?
I'm probably missing a few.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 03:52 PM