Week Ending May 2, 1998
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Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 00:32:35 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Captain Spith wrote:
> Goode, Jason wrote:
> >
> > You mean sort of like the C:NM Champions team was redone...?
>
> Ugh! I was significantly unimpressed with the New Champions. Not
> Hero's fault, they were following the trend in comics; I have been
> significantly unimpressed with that particular trend in comics.
>
> I think the team(s) presented in any upcoming Champions Sourcebook
> 5th ed., should be 1)The Champions, not redone, but updated and
> redesigned with the same simple archetypal concepts, 2)The Gaurdians,
> updated the same way, with as much of their original flavour as
> possible, and 3)Keep the Standard Roster of Villians from the back of
> the BBB (Brick, Dragonfly, Howler, etc.)
>
> I concur on the topic of the Champions and the Guardians and the
> Standard Roster Villains. I tend to wax nostalgic and I really didn't like
> the way that the Champions were altered in the C:NM. I didn't see a reason
> to cut Obsidion and Jaguar (although I guess since they REALLY cut back on
> the number of alien races that have had contact with earth I can see why
> Obsidian didn't fit in, but I think that they could have kept him). I my
> self even liked the Third edition alternate hero/villain forms for the
> Roster NPC's.(except of course Mechanon). I am wondering; since it has
> been established by those producing the book that it is rules only and
> that the Champions genre book will be a seperate entity, when they plan to
> release the Champions genre book (in relation to the HSR) Has production
> started on it?
mostly curious
chad riley
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Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 00:36:13 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
CC: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Michael Surbrook wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, Chad Riley wrote:
>
> > Hell, Bring Back Mark Williams! Bring Back Mark Williams *sigh* nostalgia....
>
> Uh... no thanks. *I* can draw significantly better then Mark Williams and
> I have *no* desire to see his artwork re-appear in any Hero product.
>
> ***************************************************************************
> * "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
> * Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
> * Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
> * http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
> * Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
> * Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
> ***************************************************************************
Sure, it wasn't all pretty but he did do the Galactus Wannabe that they all talked
about earlier; and I liked his Black Paladin and Armadillo. I also liked his
Gargoyle snippits and since he owns the character (at least that's what they said
in the short lived Champions comic), he'd need to be compensated somehow. Have you
seen his comic Sisters of Mercy?Not to bad.
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Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 00:44:39 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> > The Guardians, whose existance did not continue into the new CU. The
> > original Champions (per CU, at least) were Defender, Centurion, Quantum,
> > Jaguar, Mecha, and Peregrine; the BBB version, of coruse, are Seeker,
> > Obsidian, Jaguar, Quantum, Defender, and Solitaire.
>
> Ah yes, then the original Champions weren't ever published? I've
> seen the info in CU.
>
> And the Guardians were Gargoyle, Marksman, Atlas? and Icestar?
> I'm probably missing a few.
>
> -Tim Gilberg
>
> -"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
Ridiculous TriviaMan stikes again!!!!
"The answer Tim, (dramatic pause) [and this is only to the best of his
knowledge*]
Icestar, Flare, Gargoyle, Marksman, Rose, and Goliath."
*from his sidekick -Geek Disclaimer Boy.
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Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 02:59:39 -0500 (CDT)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net>
Subject: Bungee Cord
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I recently went and saw a movie called "The Big Hit". In it, the
main character used a bungee cord in some funky ways. I'm curious how
people would construct a bungee cord.
Obliously it would have Stretching with "X" inches on it, but what
other advantages and disadvantages would it have.
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Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 06:56:28 -0500 (CDT)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Hey, Steve! is this the Champions Team?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Ridiculous TriviaMan stikes again!!!!
>"The answer Tim, (dramatic pause) [and this is only to the best of his
>knowledge*]
>Icestar, Flare, Gargoyle, Marksman, Rose, and Goliath."
There was an aditional member mentioned once or twice called Airacobra, or
something.
Rising Force Publications
Herozine, The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist our recently updated web site...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm
"You have never lived until you have almost died.
And for those who fight for it,
life has a flavor the protected never know"
- anonymous
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Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 06:56:31 -0500 (CDT)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Characters in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Since the 5th Edition will be a rule book only I would like to see several
characters done in diffrent settings, maybe a Fantasy Hero mage, a Space
Marine, a Viper/Primus agent, and of course a Superhero, maybe two, a
Super-powerful-man type along with a more street level Dark Champions
detective type.
When the new edition of the Champions source book come out I would love to a
Golden/Silver/Modern age run down as examples of teams.
The Golden age heros from GAC.
The Guardians, as the silver age.
The Champions as the modern age.
Rising Force Publications
Herozine, The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist our recently updated web site...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm
"You have never lived until you have almost died.
And for those who fight for it,
life has a flavor the protected never know"
- anonymous
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Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 06:49:59 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 04:57 AM 4/26/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
>Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
>Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
>
>> The Guardians, whose existance did not continue into the new CU. The
>> original Champions (per CU, at least) were Defender, Centurion, Quantum,
>> Jaguar, Mecha, and Peregrine; the BBB version, of coruse, are Seeker,
>> Obsidian, Jaguar, Quantum, Defender, and Solitaire.
>
> Ah yes, then the original Champions weren't ever published? I've
>seen the info in CU.
To the best that I can remember, Centurion, Mecha, and Peregrine figured
into either origins of published characters or the background of published
adventures (Third Edition in each case, having not carried forward into
Fourth but still considered a part of the CU).
> And the Guardians were Gargoyle, Marksman, Atlas? and Icestar?
>I'm probably missing a few.
Marksman, Flare, Rose, Goliath, and Gargoyle (and maybe one more that
I'm forgetting). In an interview I've read (I forget where), Steve
Peterson stated that they're all retired (with Goliath having gone back to
his parents' ranch in Colorado and such). Just as a personal taste, I wish
they'd been mentioned in CU, but I get the idea that these were PCs from
The Original Champions Campaign.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Hey, Steve! is this the Champions Team?
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 09:56:48 -0400
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While he is not on the cover of the old Champions books (like Icestar,
Flare, Gargoyle, Marksman, Rose, and Goliath), I believe the Champions
Comics implied that there was also a member called Dove at one point. A
miniature for Dove was included in the Champions minis set made by Grenadier
some 10 to 15 years ago.
- Mike Sprague
- msprague@eznet.net
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org [mailto:owner-champ-l@sysabend.org]On
> Behalf Of Michael Nunn
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 1998 7:56 AM
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Hey, Steve! is this the Champions Team?
>
>
> > Ridiculous TriviaMan stikes again!!!!
> >"The answer Tim, (dramatic pause) [and this is only to the best of his
> >knowledge*]
> >Icestar, Flare, Gargoyle, Marksman, Rose, and Goliath."
>
> There was an aditional member mentioned once or twice called Airacobra, or
> something.
>
>
> Rising Force Publications
> Herozine, The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist our recently updated
> web site...
> http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm
>
> "You have never lived until you have almost died.
> And for those who fight for it,
> life has a flavor the protected never know"
> - anonymous
>
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From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Characters in Fifth?
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 10:01:20 -0400
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I'll second this request. There is no need for the basic rules to include a
"team." Instead, characters presented should be good solid examples of how
characters should be created (heroes or villains)!
Teams of Superheroes and Villains (and I find villains more useful than
Heroes) should be contained in source books.
- Mike Sprague
- msprague@eznet.net
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org [mailto:owner-champ-l@sysabend.org]On
> Behalf Of Michael Nunn
> Sent: Sunday, April 26, 1998 7:57 AM
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Characters in Fifth?
>
>
> Since the 5th Edition will be a rule book only I would like to see several
> characters done in diffrent settings, maybe a Fantasy Hero mage, a Space
> Marine, a Viper/Primus agent, and of course a Superhero, maybe two, a
> Super-powerful-man type along with a more street level Dark Champions
> detective type.
>
> When the new edition of the Champions source book come out I
> would love to a
> Golden/Silver/Modern age run down as examples of teams.
> The Golden age heros from GAC.
> The Guardians, as the silver age.
> The Champions as the modern age.
> Rising Force Publications
> Herozine, The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist our recently updated
> web site...
> http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm
>
> "You have never lived until you have almost died.
> And for those who fight for it,
> life has a flavor the protected never know"
> - anonymous
>
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Reply-To: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
To: "FUZION mailing list" <fuzion@dour.org>
Cc: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: JUSTICE INC. package deals
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 11:56:17 -0400
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Having long ago lost my copy of JI, I am in a slight bind re: a project. If
anyone would be so kind, could someone send me a list of the package deals
that were available in the game? Not neccesarily the package deals
themselves (although if someone is that ambitious, I would be eternally
grateful), just a list of which ones they were. Also, any additional ones
that were published in A.C. would be appreciated :)
Allen
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Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 13:24:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, Dataweaver wrote:
> >
> > True, but a wider range of sample characters would still help, and they
> > wouldn't all have to be Champions characters -- bring in samples from
> > other genres. OK, the 100+150 would be superhero range, but the others
> > could be anything from pulp to SF to fantasy to whatever.
>
> Agreed; a wider range of sample characters would be great. The HSR (4th)
> contained three samples, IIRC; one Star Hero character, one Fantasy Hero
> character, and one Champions character.
I agree as well. In fact, the sample characters list should have
something like a dozen characters. From 0 Point base to 25, to 50 to 75
to 100 and possibly 150. Normals, DNPC samples (like a reporter), a
sample cop, pulp era two-fisted crimefighters, fantasy knights, Dark
Champions characters, superheroes, modern day detectives, space-opera
smugglers... who knows.
Hey Steve, I bet you could get the list to create a number of sample
designs for you! Heck, I've got a great 150 point Fantasy Hero knight you
could use!
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 13:27:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: Hey, Steve! is this the Champions Team?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sun, 26 Apr 1998, Michael Sprague wrote:
> While he is not on the cover of the old Champions books (like Icestar,
> Flare, Gargoyle, Marksman, Rose, and Goliath), I believe the Champions
> Comics implied that there was also a member called Dove at one point. A
> miniature for Dove was included in the Champions minis set made by Grenadier
> some 10 to 15 years ago.
Champions Third Edition lists Ray "Dove" Greer on the inside cover.
Hmm... the dedication list lists these characters:
Icestar, Force, Marksman, Mind Maid, Mercenary, Airacobra, Rose & Dove.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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From: SteveL1979 <SteveL1979@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 13:29:54 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
In a message dated 98-04-26 13:27:54 EDT, susano@access.digex.net writes:
<< Hey Steve, I bet you could get the list to create a number of sample
designs for you! Heck, I've got a great 150 point Fantasy Hero knight you
could use! >>
I appreciate the offer, but at this point I'm not sure how much space we'll
have for such things. But we'll see. ;)
Steve Long
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Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 14:07:49 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: HSR vs Champs Deluxe
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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> I'm sick and tired of dealing with my version of the Champions
> (not Deluxe) hardcover which is in plastic sheets in a 3-ring binder (the
> pages fell out of the hardcover soon after purchase), so I've decided to
> try buying another book.
This was a common occurrence in books from the first printing of the BBB. I
bought mine at Gen Con the first year it came out, and it began to fall
apart within a couple of weeks. I took it back the next year and the guys
at Hero Games cheerfully replaced it, no questions asked. This one act,
more than any other, keeps me a Hero fan for life.
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
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From: "Michael Nunn" <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 13:13:52 -0500
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In an interview I've read (I forget where), Steve
Peterson stated that they're all retired (with Goliath having gone back to
his parents' ranch in Colorado and such). Just as a personal taste, I wish
they'd been mentioned in CU, but I get the idea that these were PCs from The
Original Champions Campaign.
That interview was in an of Herozine!!!
Michael "Happy that some one actually read that issue" Nunn
Editor
Herozine
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 14:18:54 EDT
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
In a message dated 4/26/98 10:27:54 AM, susano@access.digex.net wrote:
<<I agree as well. In fact, the sample characters list should have
something like a dozen characters.>>
At this stage I don't know how many sample characters we'll have room for;
they are less important than the rules. We'll have to see what we can fit in
after we have the book written.
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
To: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Cc: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 18:27:45 +0000
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: JUSTICE INC. package deals
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sun, 26 Apr 1998 11:56:17 -0400, Allen Shock wrote:
>Having long ago lost my copy of JI, I am in a slight bind re: a project. If
>anyone would be so kind, could someone send me a list of the package deals
>that were available in the game? Not neccesarily the package deals
>themselves (although if someone is that ambitious, I would be eternally
>grateful), just a list of which ones they were. Also, any additional ones
>that were published in A.C. would be appreciated :)
>
>Allen
Justice Inc. had very few package deals in it: Reporter, Policemane, G-Man.
I have a few posted at http://www.sysabend.org/champions/package/
and Dany St-Pierre has some more at
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Realm/6532/p_deal.html
John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
=================================================
Gotta question about the list? Just ask. Or, you can go look
over at www.sysabend.org/champions. Yeah, yeah, I know,
it's ugly. I'll make the site prettier when I have time.
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Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 11:33:50 -0700
To: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com>
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
At 02:18 PM 4/26/98 EDT, Hero Games wrote:
>
>In a message dated 4/26/98 10:27:54 AM, susano@access.digex.net
wrote:
>
><<I agree as well. In fact, the sample characters list should have
>something like a dozen characters.>>
>
>At this stage I don't know how many sample characters we'll have
room for;
>they are less important than the rules. We'll have to see what we
can fit in
>after we have the book written.
>
This is true if the target for 5ed is everyone who owns 4ed. However,
one of the big stumbling blocks of the Hero System for new users is
how to USE the system -- how to turn 'Energy Blast' into 'Captain
Cosmics Omnipotent Cone Of Destruction', 'Vandellars Lightning Strike
Spell', and the 'With&Sesson Mark II Blaster Pistol'. Examples are
VERY important to new players.
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Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 13:41:15 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> <<I agree as well. In fact, the sample characters list should have
> something like a dozen characters.>>
>
> At this stage I don't know how many sample characters we'll have room for;
> they are less important than the rules. We'll have to see what we can fit in
> after we have the book written.
Now this is a _major_ mistake in thinking by Hero. Example
characters, with some creativity behind them, will really help to
illustrate the rules. Look at the Crusader writeup in 3rd edition, but
more of them.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 14:53:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sun, 26 Apr 1998, Hero Games wrote:
>
> In a message dated 4/26/98 10:27:54 AM, susano@access.digex.net wrote:
>
> <<I agree as well. In fact, the sample characters list should have
> something like a dozen characters.>>
>
> At this stage I don't know how many sample characters we'll have room for;
> they are less important than the rules. We'll have to see what we can fit in
> after we have the book written.
I disagree. If you want to illustrate that Hero is a 'generic' system,
you are going to need more than 1 (or 3) sample characters. There needs
to be enough to show new people 'how it's done'. Granted a dozen may be a
bit much, but more than 3 at least.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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From: SteveL1979 <SteveL1979@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 14:58:49 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Steve Peterson writes:
>> At this stage I don't know how many sample characters we'll have room for;
they are less important than the rules. We'll have to see what we can fit in
after we have the book written.<<
And Tim Gilbert responds:
>>Now this is a _major_ mistake in thinking by Hero. Example characters, with
some creativity behind them, will really help to illustrate the rules. Look
at the Crusader writeup in 3rd edition, but more of them. >>
And Lizard further opines:
>>This is true if the target for 5ed is everyone who owns 4ed. However, one of
the big stumbling blocks of the Hero System for new users is how to USE the
system -- how to turn 'Energy Blast' into 'Captain Cosmics Omnipotent Cone Of
Destruction', 'Vandellars Lightning Strike Spell', and the 'With&Sesson Mark
II Blaster Pistol'. Examples are VERY important to new players.<<
Tim and Lizard are right that examples are important, but I have to agree
with Steve P. that it's more important to make sure that the book, as a
rulebook, is as complete as reasonably possible with regard to the rules.
We're working with a relatively small number of pages, so the issue of how
many character examples to have, and how big they can be (i.e., whether they
can be "expanded" like the Crusader explanation in 3rd Ed.) has to be put on
the back burner until we see how much space the rules themselves take up.
However, we are working on several ways to integrate copious examples into the
text in reader-friendly ways, and I think that will, at least in part, address
the sorts of concerns Tim and Lizard are expressing.
Steve Long
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 15:31:44 EDT
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Re: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
In a message dated 4/26/98 11:39:23 AM, lizard@dnai.com wrote:
<<This is true if the target for 5ed is everyone who owns 4ed. However,
one of the big stumbling blocks of the Hero System for new users is
how to USE the system -- how to turn 'Energy Blast' into 'Captain
Cosmics Omnipotent Cone Of Destruction', 'Vandellars Lightning Strike
Spell', and the 'With&Sesson Mark II Blaster Pistol'. Examples are
VERY important to new players.>>
Yes, examples like the ones you cited are important. But they are not the same
as complete character examples. We'll have plenty of examples in the rules (a
rather incredible amount, I think), but complete character examples are not as
important as power creation examples.
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 15:35:43 EDT
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Re: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
In a message dated 4/26/98 11:42:09 AM, trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu wrote:
<< Now this is a _major_ mistake in thinking by Hero. Example
characters, with some creativity behind them, will really help to
illustrate the rules. Look at the Crusader writeup in 3rd edition, but
more of them.>>
Again, character examples are not as important as power examples. If the
readers of the rules don't understand how a power works or how it can be
manipulated to represent a variety of things, then character examples won't do
them that much good. Our first responsibility is to show how the powers work
and what they can be used for; after that we can show how to work those into a
complete character, as much as we have room for. We are also limited space
considerations because of length, printing costs, and retail pricing. I know
for a fact that there will not be room for everything we'd like to put in. So
we have to make some tough decisions on exactly what goes into this book, and
what we leave for other books.
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games
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Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 12:48:20 -0700
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: New Champions Team in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:13 PM 4/26/1998 -0500, Michael Nunn wrote:
>In an interview I've read (I forget where), Steve
>Peterson stated that they're all retired (with Goliath having gone back to
>his parents' ranch in Colorado and such). Just as a personal taste, I wish
>they'd been mentioned in CU, but I get the idea that these were PCs from The
>Original Champions Campaign.
>
>That interview was in an [issue] of Herozine!!!
And now that I think about it, HeroZine really was the only candidate
for such an interview.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 23:11:36 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Characters in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<< There is no need for the basic rules to include a "team." Instead,
characters presented should be good solid examples of how characters should be
created >>
The team provides examples of creating each of several archetypes of heroes
(energy projector, shapeshifter, whatever).
Mark @ GRG
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Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 23:18:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Characters in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sun, 26 Apr 1998, GoldRushG wrote:
> << There is no need for the basic rules to include a "team." Instead,
> characters presented should be good solid examples of how characters should be
> created >>
>
> The team provides examples of creating each of several archetypes of heroes
> (energy projector, shapeshifter, whatever).
Yes, but the basic rules should give examples of more than just
superheroes. This is the *Hero* System, not Champions. If you want to
seperate the two, one needs to make sure all genres are covered in
examples, art and sample characters.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 23:53:01 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Characters in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<< Yes, but the basic rules should give examples of more than just
superheroes. This is the *Hero* System, not Champions. If you want to
seperate the two, one needs to make sure all genres are covered in examples,
art and sample characters.>>
You're exactly right, Michael. I was thinking in terms of the Champions
book. That'll teach me to post messages without first drinking copious amounts
of coffee. Doh! The HSR should have examples of a few chaarcters from
different genres, I agree. That doesn't necessarily mean it will happen, but I
do agree. ;)
Mark @ GRG
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 07:14:36 +0000
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Subject: META: The List
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 3
I had a request from a subscriber this weekend about a change to the list so I'm doing
a quick poll (please respond to me <john.desmarais@ibm.net> or
<champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> to minimize the impact to the list as a whole).
The request was to append a prefix to the subject line of all messages from the list
(something like CHAMP: or HERO:) to make it easier to filter messages from the list.
Any thoughts? (what a loaded question)
John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
=================================================
Gotta question about the list? Just ask. Or, you can go look
over at www.sysabend.org/champions. Yeah, yeah, I know,
it's ugly. I'll make the site prettier when I have time.
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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 07:47:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Characters in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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On Sun, 26 Apr 1998, GoldRushG wrote:
> << Yes, but the basic rules should give examples of more than just
> superheroes. This is the *Hero* System, not Champions. If you want to
> seperate the two, one needs to make sure all genres are covered in examples,
> art and sample characters.>>
>
> You're exactly right, Michael. I was thinking in terms of the Champions
> book. That'll teach me to post messages without first drinking copious amounts
> of coffee. Doh! The HSR should have examples of a few chaarcters from
> different genres, I agree. That doesn't necessarily mean it will happen, but I
> do agree. ;)
And I agree with you. The Champions book should have some more 'unusual'
characters than the Champions. I like the idea of a shapeshifter, or one
with a Variable Power Pool or some sort of odd power combinations.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: META: The List
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:54:51 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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It works well for other lists. The format I see most often would look
something like:
[CHAMP] Picking a fight with Dr. Destroyer
I'm all for it. Of course, that would be normal, so why go with that when
we have such wonderfully abnormal things like having to hit reply to all,
then editing out everything but champ-l@sysabend.org.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Desmarais [SMTP:John.Desmarais@ibm.net]
> Sent: Monday, April 27, 1998 3:15 AM
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: META: The List
>
>
> Any thoughts? (what a loaded question)
>
>
> John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
> =================================================
> Gotta question about the list? Just ask. Or, you can go look
> over at www.sysabend.org/champions. Yeah, yeah, I know,
> it's ugly. I'll make the site prettier when I have time.
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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 06:12:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Hero: Ignore this message
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
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---"Desmarais, John" wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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From: "Desmarais, John" <jdesmara@novanthealth.org>
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Hero: Ignore this message
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:14:15 -0400
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: JUSTICE INC. package deals
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 06:16:10 -0700
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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In addition to the ones that John D posted, I have sixty to seventy
package deals at http://www.haymaker.org/haym16.html.
Dave Mattingly
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: META: The List
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 06:33:01 -0700
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I agree as well.
I wouldn't even mind breaking it out more. Mail to champ-l would be
prefixed [CHAMP], mail to hero-l would be prefixed [HERO], same goes for
[FANTASY], [MECHANICS], [PBEM], etc., if you can even set up new e-mail
addresses for the list.
Dave Mattingly
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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:51:07 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: HSR vs Champs Deluxe
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by GoldRushG
><< I'm sick and tired of dealing with my version of the Champions (not
Deluxe)
>hardcover which is in plastic sheets in a 3-ring binder (the pages fell
out of
>the hardcover soon after purchase), so I've decided to try buying another
>book. >>
> Is this an example of someone not reading my posts and announcements,
not
remembering them or just plain ignoring them? ;)<
Is this an example of unnecessary rudeness, extreme defensiveness, or a
mindset that only fools would not read official GRG postings? It's bad to
be ridiculed by a fellow list member, but by a company rep? Perhaps you
took the "sick and tired" comment as an insult for some reason and decided
to retaliate, but I merely meant that the 3-ring notebook is inconvenient
because it's big and bulky (makes Champions hardcover look like a pamphlet
in comparison), and page-flipping is somewhat slower than with a regular
book. I was not attacking Hero for using shoddy bindings...if I were to do
that, I would have to attack many other RPG publishers as well.
> Send us your decrepid book plus $3 for S&H and we'll send you a
replacement.<
This is the first I've heard of this policy.... I would guess that this
announcement was made months ago, before I joined the mailing list.
Regardless of when this policy was announced, the first comment was
unwarranted.
I'm willing to pay for another book, but I still haven't been able to
figure out what the difference is between "Champions hardcover" and
"Champions Deluxe hardcover (without software)". The book I have is not
deluxe. I understand that Hero System Rules is a more recent version of
the rules than Champions hardcover, but I was wondering if Champions Deluxe
is simply HSR with the Champs-specific stuff tacked onto the end, or if it
includes additional updates not found in the HSR.
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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:51:12 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: RE: Hey, Steve! is this the Champions Team?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by "Michael Sprague"
>While he is not on the cover of the old Champions books (like Icestar,
Flare, Gargoyle, Marksman, Rose, and Goliath), I believe the Champions
Comics implied that there was also a member called Dove at one point. A
miniature for Dove was included in the Champions minis set made by
Grenadier
some 10 to 15 years ago.<
I don't have the book handy to verify, but I think that Dove is mentioned
several times in Champions: New Millennium's timeline.
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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:05:06 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: META: The List
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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> The request was to append a prefix to the subject line of all messages from the list
> (something like CHAMP: or HERO:) to make it easier to filter messages from the list.
Well, it'd make it harder to filter based on the subject line
according to actual subject.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:14:05 -0700
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: META: The List
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 07:14 AM 4/27/1998 +0000, John Desmarais wrote:
>I had a request from a subscriber this weekend about a change to the list
so I'm doing
>a quick poll (please respond to me <john.desmarais@ibm.net> or
><champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> to minimize the impact to the list as a whole).
>
>The request was to append a prefix to the subject line of all messages
from the list
>(something like CHAMP: or HERO:) to make it easier to filter messages from
the list.
>
>Any thoughts? (what a loaded question)
I would prefer not, though I don't feel strongly about it.
If one or the other, take HERO: since it's short and can work better for
those with limited Subject header fields.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "David Nasset" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Grond?
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:17:06 -0700
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On Tuesday, April 28, 1998 7:38 PM, Rick Holding wrote:
>
> Can somebody please tell who or what Grond is? Some stats could be
> nice. I get the impression he is a walking major disaster looking for a
party.
A four-armed Hulk rip-off with a bad attitude, several dice of Unluck, and
a general major pain in the neck. I used him three times that I recall.
First, he was a temporary part of a team run by Affrighter of The Blood. As
I recall, our team brick convinced him that another person had left with
some prized possession of Affrighter's, and Grond left to recover it. The
second time, he was Mind Controlled by Demon and was a major problem. The
third wasn't a fight at all. I decided that the Mind Control device had
corrected the defect that turned an ordinary con into a complete moron, and
he showed up to say hi, so to speak. He was going to see if the team brick
treated him as condescendingly and insultingly as before he got his brains
back, and if he did he was going to demonstrate how to wedge a wall made of
massive loose concrete blocks much tighter by using someone's head.
No luck, though.:)
Filksinger
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:37:59 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: META: The List
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Please post replies to Johns question (re: list message headers) to him at
champ-l-owner@sysabend.org rather than to this list. There's already a ton
of stuff to wade through. ;) Thanks.
Mark @ GRG
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: META: The List
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:49:58 -0400 (EDT)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Bob Greenwade said:
> I would prefer not, though I don't feel strongly about it.
> If one or the other, take HERO: since it's short and can work better for
> those with limited Subject header fields.
I actually feel strongly against it. The way threads on this group morph
we need all of the subject line for subject.
The Average Man (was Re: Skills)
would become:
HERO: The Average Man (was HERO: Re: Skills)
Besides, what happens when you hit reply-to:
HERO: The Average Man
HERO: Re: HERO: The Average Man
HERO: Re: HERO: Re: HERO: The Average Man
Editting "HERO" out of every response would become annoying. It would
also make sorting in my list archive require a filter.
Dave Mattingly (I think) wanted to include tags for the type of post.
That would be okay because it would not be an automatic addition to the
text. The author would have to do it.
Joe
(Sorry, Mark, I had to respond to the list.)
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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:02:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: META: The List
To: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net&> champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
---Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>
> Bob Greenwade said:
> > I would prefer not, though I don't feel strongly about it.
> > If one or the other, take HERO: since it's short and can work
better for
> > those with limited Subject header fields.
>
> I actually feel strongly against it. The way threads on this group
morph
> we need all of the subject line for subject.
>
> The Average Man (was Re: Skills)
>
> would become:
>
> HERO: The Average Man (was HERO: Re: Skills)
>
> Besides, what happens when you hit reply-to:
>
> HERO: The Average Man
> HERO: Re: HERO: The Average Man
> HERO: Re: HERO: Re: HERO: The Average Man
I checked this out myself this morning. Majordomo does not additional
prefixes (it's smart enough to see that the prefix is already in the
line). My test post looked like this
HERO: Ignore this message
Re: HERO: Ignore this message
==
John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
============================================
Got a question about the list? Just ask. Or, you can go
look over at www.sysabend.org/champions. I've been
slowly posting information about the list there.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:32:38 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Grond
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Does anybody have some interesting ways that Grond has been used in a
campaign? I've only used him once...the heroes saw him running across the
desert after there was a big jailbreak at Stronghold. They tried to
apprehend him, but after I gave them a healthy respect for Grond's strength
and toughness, he got bored and superlept away....they chose not to go
after him but instead headed for Stronghold where there might be some
easier pickings. -grin- Anyway, is Grond smart enough to get hired out as
a mercenary, or should he just show up to go on rampages from time to time?
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From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: Re: HSR vs Champs Deluxe
To: champ-l@omg.org (champions listserv)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:41:35 -0400 (EDT)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> > Is this an example of someone not reading my posts and announcements,
> not
> remembering them or just plain ignoring them? ;)<
>
> Is this an example of unnecessary rudeness, extreme defensiveness, or a
> mindset that only fools would not read official GRG postings? It's bad to
> be ridiculed by a fellow list member, but by a company rep? Perhaps you
> took the "sick and tired" comment as an insult for some reason and decided
> to retaliate, but I merely meant that the 3-ring notebook is inconvenient
Why do most listserv discussions here degrade into angry and embittered
shouting matches? This is not a criticism, just an observation.
<puts on his _War_ CD and begins playing "Why Can't We Be Friends?">
-Eric
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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:55:40 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Yet more supplement reviews
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Can someone give some reviews for the following (Bob G, you're normally the
man for these types of posts -grin-)? For the last three, I'd appreciate
if you could talk about how these books can be used for a campaign that
doesn't involve a lot of globetrotting.
Also, I realize the last one (Fantasy Hero) probably requires a lengthy
review, but I'm more curious about the setting than in the rules.
Basically, my impression has been that it tells you how to to run a fantasy
game, but it is pretty sparse on specific setting information--the GM
either has to make one up or "steal" one from another system. I think it
did come with a setting but it was pretty small and was better used as an
example rather than as your campaign setting. How accurate is that?
Thanks!
* European Enemies
* Champions of the North
* Kingdom of Champions
* Road Kill
* Fantasy Hero line (including Companion and whatever else exists)
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To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: META: The List
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John Desmarais writes:
> I checked this out myself this morning. Majordomo does not additional
> prefixes (it's smart enough to see that the prefix is already in the
> line). My test post looked like this
*sigh*
No.
"tags" break good MUAs that properly handle "threads" based on Subject
headers. They utterly destroy any attempt at properly sorting messages.
Majordomo generates a perfectly good "Sender" header upon which any good
MUA can filter messages into the appropriate "folder".
"tags" are just as broken as Reply-To headers pointing at a mailing list,
if for different reasons. Like Reply-To, tags only serve to encourage bad
or broken mail clients and lazy (l)users. And to encourage me off the list.
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:25:17 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Grond
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 08:45 PM 4/27/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Grond
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>
>Does anybody have some interesting ways that Grond has been used in a
>campaign? I've only used him once...the heroes saw him running across the
>desert after there was a big jailbreak at Stronghold. They tried to
>apprehend him, but after I gave them a healthy respect for Grond's strength
>and toughness, he got bored and superlept away....they chose not to go
>after him but instead headed for Stronghold where there might be some
>easier pickings. -grin- Anyway, is Grond smart enough to get hired out as
>a mercenary, or should he just show up to go on rampages from time to time?
On that latter question, it's really a matter of the GM's preference.
He's really kind of borderline in my view.
In my campaign, he has a history of being manipulated into doing certain
things by smarter villains. Like the time King Cobra had Grond convinced
(for a while, at least) that he was the big guy's father. Or when Pulsar
told him that Quantum was the individual responsible for his condition. Or
when Foxbat had him convinced that playing with real trains like toy trains
would be a world of fun.
Of course, more recently he's been recruited by Doctor Destroyer to lead
a group called the Elementals, of whom he is the smartest (others include
Glacier, Genetic Deviant X, Griffin, Black Death, Lava, and the like).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:28:09 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: META: The List
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:49 PM 4/27/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
>Bob Greenwade said:
>> I would prefer not, though I don't feel strongly about it.
>> If one or the other, take HERO: since it's short and can work better
for
>> those with limited Subject header fields.
>
>I actually feel strongly against it. The way threads on this group morph
>we need all of the subject line for subject.
>
>The Average Man (was Re: Skills)
>
>would become:
>
>HERO: The Average Man (was HERO: Re: Skills)
>
>Besides, what happens when you hit reply-to:
>
>HERO: The Average Man
>HERO: Re: HERO: The Average Man
>HERO: Re: HERO: Re: HERO: The Average Man
>
>Editting "HERO" out of every response would become annoying. It would
>also make sorting in my list archive require a filter.
Actually, I'm on another list that adds the tag, and it would just go
from "The Average Man" on the original poster's message, to "HERO: The
Average Man" when it's sent to everyone else, and then star "Re: HERO: The
Average Man" thereafter, unless someone screwed with it (like we already
get from time to time with 3-4 "Re:" prefixes on a post).
>Dave Mattingly (I think) wanted to include tags for the type of post.
>That would be okay because it would not be an automatic addition to the
>text. The author would have to do it.
This would be helpful as well; the [CHAR] header currently given when
someone uploads a character to the list is helpful.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:52:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, David B Stallard wrote:
> * European Enemies
Don't even bother to but this one. It has to be the worst product Hero
ever put out. The character designs are very poorly conceived, designed
and written up. I own it and wish I havd never bought the thing. The
only reason I still have the book as an example of what not to do.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:04:29 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: META: The List
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> "tags" are just as broken as Reply-To headers pointing at a mailing list,
> if for different reasons. Like Reply-To, tags only serve to encourage bad
> or broken mail clients and lazy (l)users. And to encourage me off the list.
Again, one good reason for them is included. But for all except
the last, Rat is right. I've been on a list that did use tags, and
experienced nothing but trouble. Automatic sorting by subject became a
problem. I will admit, however, that it is much less of a problem or
annoyance than a "reply-to-list" situation.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:08:34 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Grond
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> On that latter question, it's really a matter of the GM's preference.
> He's really kind of borderline in my view.
However, once heroes have gone against him, they don't wish to do
it again. One hit is enough to get a, "Oh, *that* Grond!"
> In my campaign, he has a history of being manipulated into doing certain
> things by smarter villains. Like the time King Cobra had Grond convinced
> (for a while, at least) that he was the big guy's father. Or when Pulsar
> told him that Quantum was the individual responsible for his condition. Or
> when Foxbat had him convinced that playing with real trains like toy trains
> would be a world of fun.
Yup. A party mentalist once made a long lasting enemy by getting
Grond to "sit-and-spin" (like the old 80s toy) for a few days.
> Of course, more recently he's been recruited by Doctor Destroyer to lead
> a group called the Elementals, of whom he is the smartest (others include
> Glacier, Genetic Deviant X, Griffin, Black Death, Lava, and the like).
Ouch.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:27:38 -0500
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Houston, we have a problem
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
We had our first game in a new Star Hero campaign this weekend. It was not
a great success. Over the past several weeks, I'd helped players who were
unfamiliar with Hero System put together a workable group of characters and
build the spaceship they designed for themselves. Some of the characters
seemed unfinished to me; I'd asked everyone to make sure their characters
had Skills which would be useful aboard ship, as well as some that would be
useful planetside, and I said more than once that each character needed to
have at least one useful Skill, Talent or KS that was unique within the
group, so that no one would be completely redundant.
Despite this, I had one player turn in a character built on only 57 points,
about one-third of the point total I'd allowed everyone. He was a
Pilot/Navigator, with a representative Package Deal that had a net cost of
0, so he had more Skills than the 57 points might suggest. However, all
the Skills he bought outside the Package dealt directly with his being a
Pilot, and he was only one of three characters qualified to fly their ship.
Under-developed and with no unique contribution. It was like pulling
teeth to get him to spend any more points, but we finally built him up to
an 83 point character. He'd added, among other things, EVA Operations and
Demolitions, figuring if the crew needed any small asteroids blown up he
could do that. Fine, but he only bought these Skills at the base roll. I
pointed out that both could have nasty, even lethal, side effects with a
badly missed roll, and he might want to improve his Skill Roll a bit. He
still had 17 points left of his base 100, not to mention another 75
available through Disadvantages, but remained reluctant. Well, what do I
know? I'm only the GM. I figured I'd let him start with the character as
is, and if he found he didn't have enough to do, or kept missing Skill
Rolls, he could beef up the character later.
With the exception of the above pilot, and the captain (who has a military
background) all the crew are scientists and/or engineers of some stripe.
I'd asked repeatedly over the last couple of months what kinds of things
they'd want their characters to look into, and all I could ever get out of
them was "We want to explore." The campaign setting encompasses our solar
system, plus one colony world each in the Alpha Centauri and Tau Ceti
systems. No evidence of intelligent alien life has yet been found. Their
ship has 64x FTL capability, making it roughly a 68 day trip from Earth to
the Tau Ceti system. I decided to start the game at the Tau Ceti colony,
since it was still largely unexplored (a little smaller than Earth, the
planet Midgard was settled only 34 years earlier and has a resident
population of less than 3 million) and should give them plenty to do. The
first thing they looked into was finding a cargo to haul to the Sol system.
A crew of scientists with a fairly well-supplied research vessel, and they
just want to haul cargo!?!? Okay, if they happen to be headed that way, it
makes sense to defray expenses by doing some cargo hauling on the side, but
they weren't supposed to be leaving, they'd just arrived. Also, some of
the players were apparently under the impression that, though I'd spent the
last couple of months creating two colony worlds and a timeline and
background for Near Space, I'd be pleased to have them immediately quit the
campaign area to go explore other stars. They hadn't thought to mention
that before now, of course.
Before I started describing the local opportunities for
exploration-for-profit, I introduced what I expected to be a subplot: the
absence of a new crew member. One Dr. Aleksander Rojasnik was supposed to
have met them at the Tau Ceti orbiting spaceport to join their crew, but he
wasn't there as expected. He would have been the only crewman with any
medical background above Paramedic (though one of the scientists does have
Biochemistry at 15-), and he'd been expected to bring the various medical
equipment for the ship and supervise its installation in their (presently
empty) medlab. The equipment had arrived, but the doctor had vanished.
They quite naturally investigated, and it turned out his body was inside
one of the medical equipment packing crates.
Now, realize: with no doctor among the crew and no immediate prospect of
getting one, they should have had no use for the equipment, and when I'd
found out only a few days earlier that the player who'd be running that
doctor had reluctantly had to back out of the campaign, I told the players
they could use the points spent on the medlab for something else, a
robotics lab or whatever, and just retcon that part of the ship's
construction. But the captain decided at the last minute they'd paid for
the medical equipment, and here it was in station storage, they might as
well hook it up and worry about little details later. The robotics expert
downloaded the medical database into one of their survey robots, figuring
it could act as a kind of medical aide. But the robot's sensors and arms
weren't designed with medicine in mind, so at the moment all they have is a
robot capable of performing geologic surveys on a human body. He says he
wasn't trying for a full robotic doctor in any case, and will think about
creating some robotic arms more suitable to the new functions. They
informed station security about the body when it was found inside the
shipping crate. The local authorities were both interested and competent,
but the PCs kept investigating the murder mystery anyway, ignoring any
opportunities to explore anything planetside.
There were three other passengers on the ship that had brought the doctor
and his equipment in. One of the passengers was still on board that ship
(which had departed four days before the PCs arrived on station), having
continued on past Midgard. The others had disembarked here. There was
some talk about leaving to chase the ship down, on the chance that the
killer was the passenger who'd stayed on board. It didn't seem to occur to
anyone that they had no authority, so if they did catch up to the ship,
they could not demand to be allowed on board, if allowed on board could not
demand to speak to the passenger, and certainly could not legally have
taken him anywhere against his will. Fortunately, they decided against
this course of action, and settled for hacking into the bank records of the
dead man and the other passengers; they were in particular looking for
activity on the doctor's account, since his bank card wasn't on his body
when it was found.
The local police had naturally had the same notion, and were monitoring
those bank accounts; a failed Security Systems roll on the part of our
crew's Security Officer allowed the police to trace the attempt back to the
PC's, still docked at the Tau Ceti spaceport. They were let off with a
warning to limit any further investigating to legal avenues of inquiry.
The captain promised to speak to his crew. He did. He said "Don't get
caught again."
Two of the characters made some attempt to look for local opportunities for
profit, but were much too vague: "I'll put out some flyers on the station
to see if anyone is looking for someone to do anything like we could do."
That's it. No one ever got more specific than that. I gave them three
different things to choose from, and one player grumpily decided the group
was unqualified for any of them (not true, based on their available Skills
and backgrounds, nor did she offer any alternative that would hint at the
sort of job she'd be interested in).
At the moment it appears that beginning next session they will be doing an
extensive undersea site survey to determine the best location for an
suboceanic colony city/research institute. It seems clear they won't be
happy unless I do something like planting a crashed alien ship for them to
find down there.
Damon
----------------------------------------------------------
Check the Star Hero campaign pages at
<http://www.txdirect.net/~griffin/starhero.htm>
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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:53:45 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: META: The List
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 04:56 PM 4/27/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>> I checked this out myself this morning. Majordomo does not additional
>> prefixes (it's smart enough to see that the prefix is already in the
>> line). My test post looked like this
>
>*sigh*
>
>No.
>
>"tags" break good MUAs that properly handle "threads" based on Subject
>headers. They utterly destroy any attempt at properly sorting messages.
Why? I've been on two different mailing lists that did this (and I'm on
one of them now), and I've never had any problem with proper sorting. None
at all.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:03:46 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:10 PM 4/27/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Yet more supplement reviews
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>
>Can someone give some reviews for the following (Bob G, you're normally the
>man for these types of posts -grin-)? For the last three, I'd appreciate
>if you could talk about how these books can be used for a campaign that
>doesn't involve a lot of globetrotting.
I think you mean, for the *first* three, don't you? :-]
Yeah, I seem to be pretty adept at writing fairly thorough reviews of
all the old books. If anyone still has copies of them, and wants to
archive them to a website somewhere, feel free to do so. (Just let me
know, so I can link them.)
>Also, I realize the last one (Fantasy Hero) probably requires a lengthy
>review, but I'm more curious about the setting than in the rules.
>Basically, my impression has been that it tells you how to to run a fantasy
>game, but it is pretty sparse on specific setting information--the GM
>either has to make one up or "steal" one from another system. I think it
>did come with a setting but it was pretty small and was better used as an
>example rather than as your campaign setting. How accurate is that?
>
>Thanks!
>
>* European Enemies
It's not for nothing that this book has been nicknamed "Plan Nine from
Hero Games." It certainly is the lowest quality item Hero has ever put
out, and even if they hadn't raised their standards considerably since then
it would still be likely to hold that title for a very long time. The
biggest problem comes from the fact that nearly all of the characters are
drawn from either cliches or stereotypes; the second biggest comes from a
number of typos and rules gaffes. (What's Chromedome's STR? How does
Increased STUN Mod apply to Energy Blast under the 4th Ed rules?) On the
other hand, it's not quite the 101% piece of trash that others have deemed
it, either. There are a couple of surprisingly useful characters, such as
the vicious female stretcher known as Doppleganger (whom I have added to
Eurostar's roster in my campaign) or the cosmic-powered Despoiler. If it
comes out on Hero Plus, I'd suggest getting it and printing out just the
good characters; otherwise buy it from a discount shelf (don't pay over $10
for it) or wait for the Second Edition that was being discussed a couple of
years ago.
As useless as this book is for a globetrotting campaign, it's almost
completely useless for one that isn't. I think you can take a pass on it
unless you have some reason to send your PCs to Europe, or just want it for
background material.
>* Champions of the North
It's not saying much, but this is indeed a considerable improvement over
European Enemies. In fact, I'd give this work a B+ overall. Though it's a
pale imitation of Kingdom of Champions, author Jon Mattson has done a nice
job of representing Canada for Americans and other barbarians. It would
have been nice to have more extensive information on the land, but
evidently there were space considerations getting in the way of that. Oh,
and take complaints that the villains are mostly on the "nice" side with
the point that Canadians are, by reputation, nicer on the whole than their
cousins to the south (witness the respective behavior of the Men's Olympic
hockey teams, for example).
One thing that Jon did nicely that Phil Masters had a harder time with
was creating villains and situations that could carry into the United
States and other locales, and good excuses to bring a PC group that
normally doesn't do much travelling abroad into Canada. It helps somewhat
that Canada is our neighbor to the immediate north, but some of his ideas
can be applied to other countries as well (to replace either Canada or the
US in the scenarios).
>* Kingdom of Champions
The only real complaint I have about this book is that so many of the
characters are written up in "brief" form rather than given full character
sheets, though this too was probably a matter of space. There's quite a
bit here about British history, culture, and lifestyle; in fact, the text
could probably be separated from the rest of the book, edited only slightly
(as much to update the information as to remove references to gaming), and
published in the mainstream without much notice. And then there are the
characters and scenarios, which only add to the flavor -- all eminently
British, with few cliches and no bitter after-taste. And besides the
explicit scenario ideas, there are seeds scattered throughout the first
part of the book.
As with Champions of the North, there are seeds for bringing characters
who are not normally globe-hoppers into Britain, as wel as for bringing the
British NPCs to the (presumably American) campaign city. There just aren't
quite as many. This is a hard call for your own particular campaign needs,
David, but I'd recommend it.
(A side note for anyone planning a geographic supplement: do be sure to
include ways that characters, institutions, and situations in your book can
influence a campaign that doesn't do a lot of travelling. This includes
adventure seeds that can bring characters who don't normally travel into
the area, reasons for villains to go to where the PCs are, corporate
influences, and so forth.)
>* Road Kill
Though it's not anywhere near the top of the list of Hero's best
supplements, I think of it as the most underrated. It seems like many of
its critics miss the point that the heavy metal band turned supervillain
group Road Kill should be played for laughs -- probably because Larry
Johnson has a rather subtle sense of humor. (At least, that's how *I* read
it.) The book has a number of "quick" adventures for the group, several
seeds and suggestions for further adventures, and even suggestions on how
the villains can spend their experience points (something unique to this
book, and which I happen to like). If you find this in a discount game
bin, pounce on it, especially if you like humorous adventures. Even if you
have to pay full price, though, it's worth the trouble.
>* Fantasy Hero line (including Companion and whatever else exists)
Even though I do own this, I'm going to defer to others on this. I like
the whole Fantasy Hero line very much, and was disappointed that there
weren't at least two more Companions, but I think others probably have more
direct experience with it and would be able to comment more lucidly.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:50:56 -0400
To: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net&>
hero-l@sysabend.org
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Houston, we have a problem
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 05:27 PM 4/27/98 -0500, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>We had our first game in a new Star Hero campaign this weekend. It was not
>a great success. Over the past several weeks, I'd helped players who were
>unfamiliar with Hero System put together a workable group of characters and
>build the spaceship they designed for themselves. Some of the characters
>seemed unfinished to me; I'd asked everyone to make sure their characters
>had Skills which would be useful aboard ship, as well as some that would be
>useful planetside, and I said more than once that each character needed to
>have at least one useful Skill, Talent or KS that was unique within the
>group, so that no one would be completely redundant.
[snip]
Sounds to me like the players don't want to play a Star Hero game, are not
familiar with Space Gaming, or you have made the game too open ended for
the players that you have. I glanced at your site and the background
It also sounds like you have too many Hero rookies. 175 points is usually
a LOT for non-powered characters (you don't mention any but the 83 point
guy, whom I assume has no disads).
You did a lot of background work but it seems the players have not bought
into it yet. Whenever I try an open ended game like non-epic fantasy (I
don't do scifi), I try to get the players to decide together why they
travel together, what common purpose they share. It sounds like your
players are using the "well we, the players, are all here in this room, so
we all must trust one another" method. In an open ended game that is not
good enough. In a superhero game, players form groups, because it's genre.
How many Fantasy or Sci-Fi novels have you read where 6-8 people travel
everywhere together?
Good luck.
Joe
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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:22:51 -0500
From: Tim Statler <tstatler@igateway.net>
Reply-To: tstatler@igateway.net
To: hero-l@omg.org
Subject: Bab 5 racial package deals
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
The recent Babylon 5 conversation fit into something I was working on
myself. I am trying to work up a Bab5 Hero.
This is the first Time I've tried to use the package deal rules so I
could use some input from the list. Here is the Racial Pkg Deals I've
worked on so far. These aren't final, but from what I've watched is a
start.
Note: increased stats are listed in the from of #/#. this is base stat
and max stat. ie: Narns str is listed as 15/25, they start stronger than
humans and also have a greater potential.
Mimbari: cost 7
Str 10/23 3
Con 13/23 12
Bdy 12/22 8
Int 13/23 6
Ego 12/22 8
disads:
DF: Mimbari conceal/noticed -10
Beserk: if drinks acohol unc 14- 11- -20
notes: the beserk represents their problem with acohol. A Phys Lim just
didn't cut it.
Narn: cost 20
STR 15/25 10
CON 15/25 20
BDY 15/25 20
PD -/10 2
ED -/10 2
disads:
DF: Narn conceal/noticed -10
Psych Lim: Hates Centauri VC, Strong -20
COM 8/18 -1
DEX 10/18 -3
notes: The TV show pretty well shows that a Narn has to use an Ego roll
to be civil to the Centauri.
Centauri: cost 5 (7)
Con 13/23 12
Ego 12/22 8
(6 extra limbs: can only lift less than a pound ea (-2) (2)
disads
DF: Centauri easily/noticed -5
Pysch Lim: Prejudiced about Narns C, mod -10
notes: the parentheical values are for Centauri males only. Several
times they were shown as prehensil. the Psych Lim is that nearly all
Centauri hold some sort of prejudice about Narns. Whether its "They're
Barbarians" to "They're just animals." The only 2 on the show that don't
(or bought it off) was Vir and Londo.
How do they look. Any Suggestions?
Tim Statler
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From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Characters in Fifth?
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 21:35:21 -0400
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> << There is no need for the basic rules to include a "team." Instead,
> characters presented should be good solid examples of how
> characters should be
> created >>
>
> The team provides examples of creating each of several
> archetypes of heroes
> (energy projector, shapeshifter, whatever).
But ... isn't it going to be a "Hero System" rulebook?
Showing the various superhero archetypes is well and good, but the game
system is much more than just Champions! A team, as in your example, belong
in a Champions supplement, not the basic rulesbook. The rulesbook should
have characters examples from various genres, and not concentrate on one
specific one.
- Mike Sprague
- msprague@eznet.net
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From: "Michael Sprague" <msprague@eznet.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: META: The List
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 21:42:09 -0400
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I also am not fond of this idea ... mostly because I sort (but not filter)
my messages by the subject field. I have been on other lists that do this,
and I just don't care for the results.
- Mike Sprague
- msprague@eznet.net
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:44:16 +1000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
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X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 2
>
> Can someone give some reviews for the following (Bob G, you're normally
the
> man for these types of posts -grin-)? For the last three, I'd appreciate
> if you could talk about how these books can be used for a campaign that
> doesn't involve a lot of globetrotting.
>
> Also, I realize the last one (Fantasy Hero) probably requires a lengthy
> review, but I'm more curious about the setting than in the rules.
> Basically, my impression has been that it tells you how to to run a
fantasy
> game, but it is pretty sparse on specific setting information--the GM
> either has to make one up or "steal" one from another system. I think it
> did come with a setting but it was pretty small and was better used as an
> example rather than as your campaign setting. How accurate is that?
>
> Thanks!
>
> * European Enemies
A bunch of enemies, who are mostly european. Rampant EC's but quite a few
good characters in there, although if you want to take advantage of
mastadon
give him a different look (maybe covered in ivory-spikes which look like a
wolly coat.)
Well, ee is really a stat-book anyway, just plonk the triad down in new
york and watch the 'sparks' fly. same goes for argent anarchy and eclipse,
in fact the teams
have good reson to be anywhere.
> * Kingdom of Champions
good book, nice short review of stuff, the characters are interesting
although
you may have trouble getting much of the value from the book unless you
skip the pond. I'd suggest bying it just for the read, to improve your
outlook on super setting
in general. I think everyone can benefit from looking at a book this well
done.
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:44:16 +1000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 4
>
> Can someone give some reviews for the following (Bob G, you're normally
the
> man for these types of posts -grin-)? For the last three, I'd appreciate
> if you could talk about how these books can be used for a campaign that
> doesn't involve a lot of globetrotting.
>
> Also, I realize the last one (Fantasy Hero) probably requires a lengthy
> review, but I'm more curious about the setting than in the rules.
> Basically, my impression has been that it tells you how to to run a
fantasy
> game, but it is pretty sparse on specific setting information--the GM
> either has to make one up or "steal" one from another system. I think it
> did come with a setting but it was pretty small and was better used as an
> example rather than as your campaign setting. How accurate is that?
>
> Thanks!
>
> * European Enemies
A bunch of enemies, who are mostly european. Rampant EC's but quite a few
good characters in there, although if you want to take advantage of
mastadon
give him a different look (maybe covered in ivory-spikes which look like a
wolly coat.)
Well, ee is really a stat-book anyway, just plonk the triad down in new
york and watch the 'sparks' fly. same goes for argent anarchy and eclipse,
in fact the teams
have good reson to be anywhere.
> * Kingdom of Champions
good book, nice short review of stuff, the characters are interesting
although
you may have trouble getting much of the value from the book unless you
skip the pond. I'd suggest bying it just for the read, to improve your
outlook on super setting
in general. I think everyone can benefit from looking at a book this well
done.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Houston, we have a problem
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 27 Apr 1998 21:57:15 -0400
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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Joe Mucchiello writes:
> It also sounds like you have too many Hero rookies. 175 points is
> usually a LOT for non-powered characters (you don't mention any but the
> 83 point guy, whom I assume has no disads).
Definitely. "Average" heroic charcters -- that is, characters with a bit
of history behind them before the start of the game -- are 75 + 75. The
"fresh out of the accademy" rookie is probably going to be a good 50 points
less than that.
> You did a lot of background work but it seems the players have not bought
> into it yet. Whenever I try an open ended game like non-epic fantasy (I
> don't do scifi), I try to get the players to decide together why they
> travel together, what common purpose they share.
That is frequently the greatest problem that a game faces: *WHY* is this
group of people together? It is difficult to keep the game together when
the characters do not have a common purpose.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: META: The List
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Date: 27 Apr 1998 22:08:53 -0400
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Bob Greenwade writes:
> Why? I've been on two different mailing lists that did this (and I'm
> on one of them now), and I've never had any problem with proper sorting.
> None at all.
Okay, just for some background. I wrote the inital code in Gnus (a mail
and news reader for GNU Emacs) that deals with "nonstandard" Subject
leaders. That is, the code that goes through strings and removes all the
variations of "Re" I knew of at the time. The end result is that "Foo",
"Re: Foo", "Re: Re: Foo", "Re[3]: Foo", and combinations and variations of
the same would be properly sorted. Then Microsoft released the German
Exchange client which added "AW:" to the list, and I had to go back and
recode for that. That started the cascade of each new mail client doing
things a little bit differently than everyone else. At best it was ugly,
and it broke more frequently than I would like to know, as new mail clients
would do things differently.
Any mailing list manager that adds tags to Subject strings has to deal with
this if it wants to even vaguely approximate reliability. None do, not to
the extent that my Gnus code did, at least. Too frequently, when something
that the code does not know about appears on the list, it will either add a
tag when it should not, or it will fail to add one when it should. When
that happens, "threading" on Subjects will fail.
And then there are the problems when, say, someone on an S&M mailing list
with "SM" tags decides to subscribe to a Sailor Moon mailing list that also
uses "SM" tags. The subject tags that are generated to ensure proper
filtering will cause that same filtering to break.
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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:15:51 -0400
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Houston, we have a problem
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:57 PM 4/27/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Joe Mucchiello writes:
>> You did a lot of background work but it seems the players have not bought
>> into it yet. Whenever I try an open ended game like non-epic fantasy (I
>> don't do scifi), I try to get the players to decide together why they
>> travel together, what common purpose they share.
>That is frequently the greatest problem that a game faces: *WHY* is this
>group of people together? It is difficult to keep the game together when
>the characters do not have a common purpose.
Exactly. That's why I always get the players to decide this for
themselves. I can then tailor the game to what works with that and,
hopefully, the players will enjoy it as well.
Joe
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Houston, we have a problem
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:26:12 +1000
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>
> We had our first game in a new Star Hero campaign this weekend. It was
not
> a great success. Over the past several weeks, I'd helped players who
were
> unfamiliar with Hero System put together a workable group of characters
and
> build the spaceship they designed for themselves. Some of the characters
> seemed unfinished to me; I'd asked everyone to make sure their characters
> had Skills which would be useful aboard ship, as well as some that would
be
> useful planetside, and I said more than once that each character needed
to
> have at least one useful Skill, Talent or KS that was unique within the
> group, so that no one would be completely redundant.
>
Well, it's often better to just get the player to come up with a concept
and
let the cards fall where they may. That way you can often get a more
diverse set of
characers than if you try and base things on skill lists to begin with.
> Despite this, I had one player turn in a character built on only 57
points,
> about one-third of the point total I'd allowed everyone. He was a
> Pilot/Navigator, with a representative Package Deal that had a net cost
of
> 0, so he had more Skills than the 57 points might suggest. However, all
> the Skills he bought outside the Package dealt directly with his being a
> Pilot, and he was only one of three characters qualified to fly their
ship.
> Under-developed and with no unique contribution. It was like pulling
> teeth to get him to spend any more points, but we finally built him up to
> an 83 point character. He'd added, among other things, EVA Operations
and
> Demolitions, figuring if the crew needed any small asteroids blown up he
> could do that. Fine, but he only bought these Skills at the base roll.
I
> pointed out that both could have nasty, even lethal, side effects with a
> badly missed roll, and he might want to improve his Skill Roll a bit. He
> still had 17 points left of his base 100, not to mention another 75
> available through Disadvantages, but remained reluctant. Well, what do I
> know? I'm only the GM. I figured I'd let him start with the character
as
> is, and if he found he didn't have enough to do, or kept missing Skill
> Rolls, he could beef up the character later.
>
>
Hmmm. well the question is WHY? was he bored with character creation?
Does he think point spent all involve disadvantages?
perhaps you could allow him to by a 'neural interface' helmet to run the
ship better,
as a superherioc-style foci? My players are flat out not maxing their
disadvantages.
Perhaps he hopes for a radiation experiment later? I'm kinda in the dark
here. ...
> With the exception of the above pilot, and the captain (who has a
military
> background) all the crew are scientists and/or engineers of some stripe.
> I'd asked repeatedly over the last couple of months what kinds of things
> they'd want their characters to look into, and all I could ever get out
of
> them was "We want to explore." The campaign setting encompasses our
solar
> system, plus one colony world each in the Alpha Centauri and Tau Ceti
> systems. No evidence of intelligent alien life has yet been found.
Their
> ship has 64x FTL capability, making it roughly a 68 day trip from Earth
to
> the Tau Ceti system. I decided to start the game at the Tau Ceti colony,
> since it was still largely unexplored (a little smaller than Earth, the
> planet Midgard was settled only 34 years earlier and has a resident
> population of less than 3 million) and should give them plenty to do.
The
> first thing they looked into was finding a cargo to haul to the Sol
system.
> A crew of scientists with a fairly well-supplied research vessel, and
they
> just want to haul cargo!?!? Okay, if they happen to be headed that way,
it
> makes sense to defray expenses by doing some cargo hauling on the side,
but
> they weren't supposed to be leaving, they'd just arrived. Also, some of
> the players were apparently under the impression that, though I'd spent
the
> last couple of months creating two colony worlds and a timeline and
> background for Near Space, I'd be pleased to have them immediately quit
the
> campaign area to go explore other stars. They hadn't thought to mention
> that before now, of course.
>
Patience . . .communication. . patience. .. communication .. patience. . .
.
patience. .. patience. . ..
<snip>
> At the moment it appears that beginning next session they will be doing
an
> extensive undersea site survey to determine the best location for an
> suboceanic colony city/research institute. It seems clear they won't be
> happy unless I do something like planting a crashed alien ship for them
to
> find down there.
>
Wellll. . i think you're maybe missing the point of exploration. When one
explores, one
deas not stay in the place they start in. The ocean idea is good- don't be
so quick
to think that(alien ship) is what they want. Put a bunch of
salvage-pirates down there, or maybe a nasty
alien bug(disease). Remember, this is sci-fi- not bor-dom. Have the company
they work
for ignore their report of a nasty bug (even after an npc goes mad under
it's effect and
almost floods the ship). Have them decide wether they want to go through
other circles,
maybe hint that the dead doctor was working in simmilar circles. Think
possitive, remember they're
playing too- don't blame them for wantiog something different than you.
> Damon
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> Check the Star Hero campaign pages at
> <http://www.txdirect.net/~griffin/starhero.htm>
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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:49:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
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On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >* European Enemies
>
> It's not for nothing that this book has been nicknamed "Plan Nine from
> Hero Games." It certainly is the lowest quality item Hero has ever put
> out, and even if they hadn't raised their standards considerably since then
> it would still be likely to hold that title for a very long time. The
> biggest problem comes from the fact that nearly all of the characters are
> drawn from either cliches or stereotypes; the second biggest comes from a
Indeed. The Swiss character makes clocks, the English character is an
archer, the French guy is modeled after Napoleon, the Monaco character
uses a gambling motif, the Iltalian is in the Mafia... it is pretty poor.
> number of typos and rules gaffes. (What's Chromedome's STR? How does
> Increased STUN Mod apply to Energy Blast under the 4th Ed rules?) On the
Also pay close attention to character descriptions and their write-ups.
You get an acne scarred man with (like) a 20 COM. There is a guy with a
6d6 EB only usable within his gas cloud. His gas cloud is always on...
Hoarfrost kills herself is she uses her No Range RKA. There is a Fractal
Energies EC (a what?). This same character (Mandelbrot) has 16 points for
a computer, except there are no statsgiven for this computer (and a 300
END Reserve to run it!) Oh, and he's Hunted by a RPG company! What sort
of diads are these?
> other hand, it's not quite the 101% piece of trash that others have deemed
> it, either. There are a couple of surprisingly useful characters, such as
> the vicious female stretcher known as Doppleganger (whom I have added to
> Eurostar's roster in my campaign) or the cosmic-powered Despoiler. If it
I dunnno. I can usually pick a few characters out of any supplement that
appeal to me. EE has given me ZERO in all the time I've had it.
> comes out on Hero Plus, I'd suggest getting it and printing out just the
> good characters; otherwise buy it from a discount shelf (don't pay over $10
> for it) or wait for the Second Edition that was being discussed a couple of
> years ago.
Yeah, well I can't think of any good characters.
> As useless as this book is for a globetrotting campaign, it's almost
> completely useless for one that isn't. I think you can take a pass on it
> unless you have some reason to send your PCs to Europe, or just want it for
> background material.
I agree, give EE a big pass. Buy GRUPS IST instead, you can probably get
better European character ideas out of that instead (I know that I did).
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:25:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Houston, we have a problem
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> Definitely. "Average" heroic charcters -- that is, characters with a bit
> of history behind them before the start of the game -- are 75 + 75. The
> "fresh out of the accademy" rookie is probably going to be a good 50 points
> less than that.
The Gospel According To Rat!
Seriously, that's one gamer's opinion. (Or many gamers'opinions.)
But starting points really are a matter of preference and GM style. That
said, 175 is a bit much for my personal style.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:33:16 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
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> Indeed. The Swiss character makes clocks, the English character is an
> archer, the French guy is modeled after Napoleon, the Monaco character
> uses a gambling motif, the Iltalian is in the Mafia... it is pretty poor.
And what's wrong with stereotypes for a short jaunt to Europe.
People will be expecting something somewhat familiar. Though, of course,
I could think of other stereotypes for each country -- an Arthurian themed
villian (they have that one, actually) for England, a Joan of Arc related
French Villianess, a member of the Monaco Royal Familiy, a villian related
to the Roman empire for Italy.
> Hoarfrost kills herself is she uses her No Range RKA. There is a Fractal
> Energies EC (a what?). This same character (Mandelbrot) has 16 points for
> a computer, except there are no statsgiven for this computer (and a 300
> END Reserve to run it!) Oh, and he's Hunted by a RPG company! What sort
> of diads are these?
Hey! I _like_ Mandelbrot. Why are Fractal Energies any less
believable then Mystical Flame? And Hunted by the T$R of a gaming world
might actually be worth something, if you consider possible ties to real
alternate dimensions. The computer is fine, though needs to be written
up. The END reserve is trash.
> I agree, give EE a big pass. Buy GRUPS IST instead, you can probably get
> better European character ideas out of that instead (I know that I did).
Don't listen to him. I've tried to convert GURPS Supers
characters, and found it n excercise in futility. The EE characters at
least have stats resembling those of the Hero Rules.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:41:12 -0500
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Houston, we have a problem
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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>> It also sounds like you have too many Hero rookies. 175 points is
>> usually a LOT for non-powered characters (you don't mention any but the
>> 83 point guy, whom I assume has no disads).
>
>Definitely. "Average" heroic charcters -- that is, characters with a bit
>of history behind them before the start of the game -- are 75 + 75. The
>"fresh out of the accademy" rookie is probably going to be a good 50 points
>less than that.
There was no academy. My wife and I currently belong to a gaming group
that's been taking turns in a GURPS-Harn hybrid (run by the player who's
the Chief Engineer in the Star Hero game) and an AD&D Forgotten Realms game
(run by the ship's robotics expert). In introducing these guys to Hero, I
decided the easiest way to simulate the existing group dynamic was to
create a back story where they'd all been part of the crew of a corporate
freighter/transport vessel; their ship was decommissioned and the PCs
decided to go into business for themselves, doing research-for-hire or
exploration-for-profit (this last part they decided for themselves).
The ship's captain has several years Naval experience, most of the rest of
the PCs were scientists and/or engineers in various fields. One of the
characters used to do a regular science show for kids on TV (now, he just
does the occasional TV special). I gave them 75+75 points, then allowed
them up to take up to an addtional 25 points in order to finance the
construction of their ship; the actual characters (not counting the ship
cost) couldn't be more than 150 points.
>> You did a lot of background work but it seems the players have not bought
>> into it yet. Whenever I try an open ended game like non-epic fantasy (I
>> don't do scifi), I try to get the players to decide together why they
>> travel together, what common purpose they share.
>
>That is frequently the greatest problem that a game faces: *WHY* is this
>group of people together? It is difficult to keep the game together when
>the characters do not have a common purpose.
I gave them a back story that would explain how they knew each other and
how they happen to all be in a situation that requires them to look for
gainful employment. I explained to them that they'd be free to take on
short-term work-for-hire projects if that's what they wanted to do, but
that the range of available jobs would depend on their areas of expertise;
if they were all a bunch of geologists and mining engineers, there'd only
be so many things they could do with that. They did manage to create a
group of characters with a decent range of Skills (especially while they
still had their doctor), but had not yet managed to evolve a group purpose
beyond "Let's explore." I can't give them that. Given at least some idea
of the kinds of things the crew will be interested in purusing, I can
create a variety of oppotunities that will allow them to do that. Until I
get some idea, I can take shots in the dark and create one oppotunity after
another and see what they go for. But I can't dictate to them, "This is
what you want to do."
Damon
----------------------------------------------------------
Check the Star Hero campaign pages at
<http://www.txdirect.net/~griffin/starhero.htm>
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <hero-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Bab 5 racial package deals-EXTRA LIMBS??
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:42:49 +1000
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----------
>
>
> Centauri: cost 5 (7)
> Con 13/23 12
> Ego 12/22 8
> (6 extra limbs: can only lift less than a pound ea (-2) (2)
> disads
excuse my language, but WTF???????? what, can they pick stuff up with their
hair?
or are you talking about them little keepers?
> DF: Centauri easily/noticed -5
> Pysch Lim: Prejudiced about Narns C, mod -10
>
> notes: the parentheical values are for Centauri males only. Several
> times they were shown as prehensil. the Psych Lim is that nearly all
> Centauri hold some sort of prejudice about Narns. Whether its "They're
> Barbarians" to "They're just animals." The only 2 on the show that don't
> (or bought it off) was Vir and Londo.
>
>
> How do they look. Any Suggestions?
>
> Tim Statler
>
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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:54:29 -0700
To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au&> <hero-l@omg.org>
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: Bab 5 racial package deals-EXTRA LIMBS??
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At 01:42 PM 4/28/98 +1000, happyelf wrote:
>
>
>----------
>>
>>
>> Centauri: cost 5 (7)
>> Con 13/23 12
>> Ego 12/22 8
>> (6 extra limbs: can only lift less than a pound ea (-2) (2)
>> disads
>
>excuse my language, but WTF???????? what, can they pick stuff up
with their
>hair?
>or are you talking about them little keepers?
You, ah, never saw the infamous poker scene then?
(Spoiler space, just in case)
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
Centauri males have six penii, which are in sets of three on the left
and right side of their bodies. These are long (several feet), agile,
and under voluntary control. Londo used his to cheat at poker. This
does not seem to be common knowledge among other races, but both
Londo and Vir talked about it freely to other characters, so it isn't
a racial secret, either.
We also got to see them, briefly, in "The Very Long Night Of Londo
Mollari" -- perhaps the first adult male full frontal nudity on non-
pay TV!
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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:25:48 -0500
To: <hero-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Houston, we have a problem
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>Well, it's often better to just get the player to come up with a concept
>and let the cards fall where they may. That way you can often get a more
>diverse set of characers than if you try and base things on skill lists to
begin with.
Que? Each player was free to come up with his/her own concept. If anyone
*had* created a character that didn't fit the idea of the earlier freighter
crew, that character would have been introduced separately (as the doctor
was supposed to be, and the security officer was; these two players joined
late in the preparation stages). I did not dictate Skill lists to anyone,
I just said each player needed to be sure his character wasn't made
redundant by any of the others.
>Hmmm. well the question is WHY? was he bored with character creation?
>Does he think point spent all involve disadvantages?
>perhaps you could allow him to by a 'neural interface' helmet to run the
>ship better, as a superherioc-style foci?
The chief engineer and one of the other pilots already have neural links to
the ship, so it wouldn't add anything. Good try, though. This player is
The Quiet One in our group and I don't know why he is reluctant to spend
more points. His characters in the other two games aren't very flashy (not
that that's a bad thing). I think he has played some space adventures
before...2300 A.D. or something, but hasn't offered any anecdotes about
those campaigns. Like I said, he doesn't talk a lot.
>Patience . . .communication. . patience. .. communication .. patience. . .
Yeah, I know. I'm not giving up or anything, nor do I blame the players
[exclusively] for the situation.
>Wellll. . i think you're maybe missing the point of exploration. When one
>explores, one deas not stay in the place they start in.
One does if the place they start in is (a) 99.9% unexplored, (b) a place
where they can be paid to explore in various ways, and (c) the location
they know the GM has spent most of his time detailing for them recently.
No, they will not be expected to stay here. Yes, they will be allowed and
expected to visit the other colony world, plus Mars (undergoing
terraforming), Luna, Earth, any of the 53 free-floating cities in the Sol
system, whatever. But they've known from the beginning that these three
star systems represented Known Space at the time of the campaign.
They want to go off and explore uncharted solar systems? Fine. Not one of
them is an astronomer. Not one of them is an astrophysicist. Not one of
them has any Skill with the prefix "xeno-" in front of it. Only the
captain and one pilot have EVA Skills. They have no one with medical
Skills, except one scientist with Biochemistry as a sideline, and a couple
of people with Paramedic Skill. These guys are barely equipped to
*recognize* another star system, much less do any meaningful exploration of
one. They all have things like geology, meteorology, ecology,
pharmacology, biology (not as widely useful as you might suppose; I'm only
dealing with carbon-based Life As We Know It built on DNA. Many stars
won't support such life, not all stars will have planets, not all planets
that *could* have life will, and so on.) If the characters had been given
Skills or backgrounds that suggested space exploration rather than
planetside exploration, I could have either headed that off or adjusted
part of the scope of the campaign to allow for that. Exploration of neaby
stars is pretty much a dead end, though, because there's no one out there
(as far as anyone knows yet) to interact with. You spend months sailing
along at Warp 37.9, get to a new star, take some readings, look for
planets. It has four. You take some more readings. None of them can
support terrestrial life. Next star system. Ho hum. The colony worlds
provide colonists to interact with, local governments (most of the crew has
Bureaucratics) to be hassled by and diverse yet DNA-based biospheres to
investigate.
The ocean idea is good- don't be so quick
>to think that(alien ship) is what they want. Put a bunch of
>salvage-pirates down there, or maybe a nasty
>alien bug(disease).
Some form of the pirate thing might be workable. They are not equipped,
without a real medical person, to do anything about alien diseases.
>almost floods the ship). Have them decide wether they want to go through
>other circles, maybe hint that the dead doctor was working in simmilar
circles. Think
>possitive, remember they're playing too- don't blame them for wantiog
something different than you.
I don't blame them for wanting something different, I blame them for not
giving me the slightest notion of what they *do* want, despite repeated
queries. Again, it is not true that this whole situation is their fault,
but I feel like I've provided a decent backdrop for them to get started
with, and not been given enough from them to work with to create specific
adventures. In our GURPS-Harn campaign, we're all colonists, off to the
New World to establish a brand new colony. We all knew ahead of time
that's what we were going to be doing, the only flexibility is in how the
individual characters react to situations as they come up. We can't just
decide, "Orbaal sucks. Let's head for Tharda." and have the GM guide us
there. Our route is planned for us. I didn't want to dictate a route or
itinerary for the group. At the same time, the campaign setting does not
encompass the entire Galaxy. In effect, the group has been asked "Within
these boundaries, what would you like to do?" and the answers have so far
been (a) escape the boundaries, and (b) engage in some unspecified activity
other than anything the GM has suggested.
Damon
----------------------------------------------------------
Check the Star Hero campaign pages at
<http://www.txdirect.net/~griffin/starhero.htm>
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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 22:02:59 -0700
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Houston, we have a problem
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At 10:25 PM 4/27/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> Definitely. "Average" heroic charcters -- that is, characters with a bit
>> of history behind them before the start of the game -- are 75 + 75. The
>> "fresh out of the accademy" rookie is probably going to be a good 50 points
>> less than that.
>
> The Gospel According To Rat!
>
> Seriously, that's one gamer's opinion. (Or many gamers'opinions.)
>But starting points really are a matter of preference and GM style. That
>said, 175 is a bit much for my personal style.
We tend to stay at 50+50, keeps the PCs low in power with lots of growth
potential :)
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:03:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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To: bastet@iquest.net
cc: hero-l@omg.org
Subject: Re: Bab 5 racial package deals
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On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, Tim Statler wrote:
> The recent Babylon 5 conversation fit into something I was working on
> myself. I am trying to work up a Bab5 Hero.
>
> This is the first Time I've tried to use the package deal rules so I
> could use some input from the list. Here is the Racial Pkg Deals I've
> worked on so far. These aren't final, but from what I've watched is a
> start.
>
> Note: increased stats are listed in the from of #/#. this is base stat
> and max stat. ie: Narns str is listed as 15/25, they start stronger than
> humans and also have a greater potential.
Interesting this pops up just now. Just this weekend I started working on
something like this for a campaign of my own.
>
>
> Mimbari: cost 7
> Str 10/23 3
I'd start them at 13 Strength. They are listed as stronger than the
normal human in the Bab5 Gamebook, and in the show we've seen Lennier lift
Marcus off the ground by one hand with no apparent strain.
> Con 13/23 12
I'd probably leave this at 10. Minbari in the book have the same
endurance as Humans.
> Bdy 12/22 8
> Int 13/23 6
> Ego 12/22 8
They are the most mentally oriented of the races, so this makes sense.
Since they also have the highest perception in the game, I'd probably even
add +1 perception.
> disads:
> DF: Mimbari conceal/noticed -10
> Beserk: if drinks acohol unc 14- 11- -20
>
> notes: the beserk represents their problem with acohol. A Phys Lim just
> didn't cut it.
It seems to fit, but I might make it 8- to recover. Or mod it by how much
alcohol they have. It sounds like they'd be berzerk as long as it was at
a certain level in their system. When Lennier first said this I thought
he was lying to Londo (Like he lied to someone else about having a rare,
fatal illness, just to get the person to go away from him), but it's been
brought up since.
I'd probably also add Rep: Minbari (Never tells a lie, but never tells
all they know either). This perception of Minbari has come up several
times.
>
> Narn: cost 20
> STR 15/25 10
> CON 15/25 20
> BDY 15/25 20
> PD -/10 2
> ED -/10 2
All seems reasonable, they are the brutes of the major races.
> disads:
> DF: Narn conceal/noticed -10
> Psych Lim: Hates Centauri VC, Strong -20
I don't think I would put it this strong as a required racial thing.
Certainly many Narn did have this. But when the Centauri conquered Narn
again it did not take them long to get Narn servents and Quislings. So
either they had alot of EXP saved up to buy it off, or not all Narn are
this full of hate.
> COM 8/18 -1
Com is so much a product of viewpoint I don't think I'd mess with it,
unless all the PC's will be one set race.
> DEX 10/18 -3
Hard to say. In the Bab5 Gamebook they are even with humans in dex.
I'd pobably also add a Rep: here. Narns are known to be warlike,
involved in dirty deals and no picky about who they work with as long as
they are not Centauri.
>
> Centauri: cost 5 (7)
> Con 13/23 12
This works. Centauri are second only to Narn in Endurance.
> Ego 12/22 8
I'd also add Int, maybe some Pre. They are a society that prizes wit and
showy displays, as well as manipulation and intrigue. Vir is the obvious
exception.;) I would even be tempted to make High Society a Background
skill.
> (6 extra limbs: can only lift less than a pound ea (-2) (2)
I had totally forgotten about this, I probably would not allow fine
manipulation or some other limitation. They can pick up a card, but not
fire a gun.
> disads
> DF: Centauri easily/noticed -5
> Pysch Lim: Prejudiced about Narns C, mod -10
Rep: Decadant and Fading Race. Vice seems to be a specialty of the
Centauri.
I agree their DF should be lower. Centauri can pass off as humans to a
casual observer, as humans can look like Centauri.
>
> notes: the parentheical values are for Centauri males only. Several
> times they were shown as prehensil. the Psych Lim is that nearly all
> Centauri hold some sort of prejudice about Narns. Whether its "They're
> Barbarians" to "They're just animals." The only 2 on the show that don't
> (or bought it off) was Vir and Londo.
I'm trying to decide what to do with humans for Bab5 Hero. In the book
they have the best Pre score of all, and the series seems to show humans
have a gift for being able to work with nearly any race. I'm not sure if
this would really be Pre, or if a better way to sim it would be just a
racial reaction modifier (IE, non-humans just tend to trust them a little
more or humans get a generally better reaction).
Suggestions?
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From: Doc Weird <DocWeird@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 01:03:32 EDT
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Reply: Houston, we have a problem
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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In a message dated 98-04-28 00:31:15 EDT, griffin@txdirect.net writes:
<< In effect, the group has been asked "Within
these boundaries, what would you like to do?" and the answers have so far
been (a) escape the boundaries, and (b) engage in some unspecified activity
other than anything the GM has suggested.
>>
Thus we come to the heart of the problem........Gamers, in general, are
non conformists-----Just look at all the unwillingness to conform on this list
alone........
Maybe you should ALL discuss what you want from your game---as
theplayer theshould have some idea what they want, if not------try to
communicate what YOU are hoping to get from the game.......
And if that doesn't work, you can always have the party captured by
space pirates, have to steal one of THEIR ships, and then try to convince the
authoirties they are not the real pirates themselves...
Involve them in something that is bigger than what they 'want' to do....
Say the doctor was working on some 'space-bug' he quit his former job to get
away but was killed before he could leak any information and now they have
installed HIS lab equipment----nice place to put a copy of the 'space-bug'
research-----Now the party has proof of some scientific/military/insane
group/anything else conspiracy/plot/plan etc... 3 star systems, 50 cities,
terra formed moon, and mars-----plenty of space to run from/to something
They want to explore---let them, when they get back from their '5 year
mission' and only get 1/2 pay because they return with inadequate
information.....
Neway, that's a few ideas that i hope will help
------------------------------------------------------------------Doc
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:22:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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To: Bastet@iquest.net
cc: hero-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Houston, we have a problem
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On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
> I don't blame them for wanting something different, I blame them for not
> giving me the slightest notion of what they *do* want, despite repeated
> queries. Again, it is not true that this whole situation is their fault,
> but I feel like I've provided a decent backdrop for them to get started
> with, and not been given enough from them to work with to create specific
> adventures. In our GURPS-Harn campaign, we're all colonists, off to the
> New World to establish a brand new colony. We all knew ahead of time
> that's what we were going to be doing, the only flexibility is in how the
> individual characters react to situations as they come up. We can't just
> decide, "Orbaal sucks. Let's head for Tharda." and have the GM guide us
> there. Our route is planned for us. I didn't want to dictate a route or
> itinerary for the group. At the same time, the campaign setting does not
> encompass the entire Galaxy. In effect, the group has been asked "Within
> these boundaries, what would you like to do?" and the answers have so far
> been (a) escape the boundaries, and (b) engage in some unspecified activity
> other than anything the GM has suggested.
JUst in my own personal experience, it's hard to make open ended space
games work. I've been in a few and they all broke down past a point.
Barring the players starting with a really clear idea of what they want,
the GM needs to provide direction to the campaign.
Part of the reason I like trying to work B5 for the group I'm with is they
are familiar with genre and no matter if I do PsiCops or put the PC's on
B5 itself, there will be some direction given to start. Either orders
from higher ups or the type of missions offered.
One possibly is to let them hook up with a short term patron. Someone
they might initially meet because he's looking to hire a pure exploration
ship. As he questions them about their qualifications, he should figure
out they are not suited to that type of work, but could have some other
job for them.
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From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Grond
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 02:23:39 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: VTSFFC
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> after him but instead headed for Stronghold where there might be some
> easier pickings. -grin- Anyway, is Grond smart enough to get hired out as
> a mercenary, or should he just show up to go on rampages from time to time?
Grond is.... easily manipulated. Many villians, having a use for his
strength, will get Grond to do things by either tricking him, flattering
him, telling him "Captain Good-Guy said you're a sissy", etc. Mentalists
have a very easy time with him.
One early session in a game opened with the PC's in their new base
being informed that "Grond is on a rampage in a bus station downtown!"
They rushed out the door and promptly tripped on a bent front fender.
Seems Grond had randomly chucked a car in their general direction, they
looked up to the skyline and saw badly bent motor vehicles tumbling
into view periodically (I think one of them later wrote that up as
a screen saver). The arrived on-site to find a very distraught Viper
agent wearing a big blinking helmet, whose patterns matched the
broken-looking "Control Collar" on Grond's neck.
Then there was the time Merry Andrew gave him a ring that, once a day,
would dispense a pill that would let Grond grow several hundred feet tall
for an hour. Grond promptly swam to Japan and challenged Godzillia to
a wrestling match.
Soon after that, most of the rest of the 'big dumb bricks' started begging
Andrew for similar rings of their own. He gave in. The inhabitants of
Monster Island took quite a pounding until the rings ran out.....
Daniel PAwtowski
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:09:44 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Grond
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 08:45 PM 4/27/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
> >From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
> >Subject: Grond
> >Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
> >
> >Does anybody have some interesting ways that Grond has been used in a
> >campaign? I've only used him once...the heroes saw him running across the
> >desert after there was a big jailbreak at Stronghold. They tried to
> >apprehend him, but after I gave them a healthy respect for Grond's strength
> >and toughness, he got bored and superlept away....they chose not to go
> >after him but instead headed for Stronghold where there might be some
> >easier pickings. -grin- Anyway, is Grond smart enough to get hired out as
> >a mercenary, or should he just show up to go on rampages from time to time?
>
> On that latter question, it's really a matter of the GM's preference.
> He's really kind of borderline in my view.
> In my campaign, he has a history of being manipulated into doing certain
> things by smarter villains. Like the time King Cobra had Grond convinced
> (for a while, at least) that he was the big guy's father. Or when Pulsar
> told him that Quantum was the individual responsible for his condition. Or
> when Foxbat had him convinced that playing with real trains like toy trains
> would be a world of fun.
> Of course, more recently he's been recruited by Doctor Destroyer to lead
> a group called the Elementals, of whom he is the smartest (others include
> Glacier, Genetic Deviant X, Griffin, Black Death, Lava, and the like).
> ---
> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
> Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Actually my GM (in our Infamous 400 pt campaign) ran the origin of Grond early
on. My brick went toe to toe with the beast for three turns! Then I started to
run low on end and he got a major hit on me and leapt away. The last time we saw
Grond he had become a force of nature 200'tall and walking slowly into the sea
after devistating much of New York. I had never been so afraid in all my days as
a gamer......
We didn't even give chase....
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <hero-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Bab 5 racial package deals-EXTRA LIMBS??
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:10:47 +1000
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ahhh, i SEE . . hmmm, i hope b5 doesn't go TOO far in this direction. . *l*
> >
> >----------
> >>
> >>
> >> Centauri: cost 5 (7)
> >> Con 13/23 12
> >> Ego 12/22 8
> >> (6 extra limbs: can only lift less than a pound ea (-2) (2)
> >> disads
> >
> >excuse my language, but WTF???????? what, can they pick stuff up
> with their
> >hair?
> >or are you talking about them little keepers?
>
> You, ah, never saw the infamous poker scene then?
> (Spoiler space, just in case)
> 1
> 2
> 3
> 4
> 5
> 6
> 7
> 8
> 9
> 10
> 11
> 12
> 13
> 14
> 15
> 16
> 17
> 18
> 19
> 20
>
> Centauri males have six penii, which are in sets of three on the left
> and right side of their bodies. These are long (several feet), agile,
> and under voluntary control. Londo used his to cheat at poker. This
> does not seem to be common knowledge among other races, but both
> Londo and Vir talked about it freely to other characters, so it isn't
> a racial secret, either.
>
> We also got to see them, briefly, in "The Very Long Night Of Londo
> Mollari" -- perhaps the first adult male full frontal nudity on non-
> pay TV!
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
> Charset: noconv
>
> iQA/AwUBNUVS9DKf8mIpTvjWEQLPiACgpzuK4O06GV78dDHV+Iq/OHoX/SYAoIRO
> A7w6HAZsMpfjH76d0EiutvaA
> =mMlG
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Houston, we have a problem
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:31:37 +1000
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>
> The ocean idea is good- don't be so quick
> >to think that(alien ship) is what they want. Put a bunch of
> >salvage-pirates down there, or maybe a nasty
> >alien bug(disease).
>
> Some form of the pirate thing might be workable. They are not equipped,
> without a real medical person, to do anything about alien diseases.
>
Well, give 'em one. Then make him go mad and almost flood the ship ;->~
But seriously, try to got them to open up a tad. I think the trouble here
is that
people ae unsure as to *how* much is mapped out. Maybe start them out on a
more predictable path, and ease them into it. either way, good luck! or
something .. .
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 02:32:18 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Characters in Fifth?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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> > The team provides examples of creating each of several
> > archetypes of heroes
> > (energy projector, shapeshifter, whatever).
>
> But ... isn't it going to be a "Hero System" rulebook?
>
> Showing the various superhero archetypes is well and good, but the game
> system is much more than just Champions!
Okay, folks, let's pay attention. Although the ORIGINAL question of
this message thread asked about Super Characters in the new HSR, it was
almost immediately decided/mentioned that 1)It was NOT a
superhero-specific book, thus would have a smattering of genres for
examples, and 2)... actually, let me seperate this to be clear and
bold...
...and 2)the discussion has since then been about characters in a
potential Champions 5th edition Genre book. So please read the header
oh this thread to mean
"Re: Characters in Fifth?" as in 5th edition Champions Genre
supplement.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled niggling.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: The source of all power?/origins?
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:37:32 +1000
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>
> >> Well, David Brin had one or two in _Earth_, as I recall.
> >>
> > There were a few in the Sun in Robert Forward's Dragon's Egg, and
millions
> > in the Earth's core in James P. Hogan's Thrice Upon a Time.
>
> Oh, okay. But none in any comics or game products that you're aware of?
>
> Mark @ GRG
nope- no problems of *that* type. . .my original comment was
just a casual jibe, nothing more. .. .it's a good idea i suppose,
but i just think things like that belong out in space! OK, apart
from those nice plot-device wormholes. . .. .
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
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Subject: Re: Grond?
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:40:58 +1000
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----------
> From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
> To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
> Subject: Grond?
> Date: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 12:38 PM
>
> Can somebody please tell who or what Grond is? Some stats could be
> nice. I get the impression he is a walking major disaster looking for a
party.
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
> Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
> -----------------------------------------------------------
as a matter of fact, i have no idea who he is either. ..
The super-brick in my campaign was called 'deathstrike'
and was super-fast as well as super strong. Oh, and he
had big spikes alover the place. So i've never been one
fer hulk-types. In fact i think ole dethy might have
flung ogre towards/through/all over hoover dam at supper speed, now THAT
scared the capes off my groups pc's. . .
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 07:26:17 -0500
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Reply: Houston, we have a problem
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> Thus we come to the heart of the problem........Gamers, in general, are
>non conformists-----Just look at all the unwillingness to conform on this
list
>alone........
And when you're dealing with newbie roleplayers (or an inexperienced GM,
for that matter), or players unfamiliar with a particular genre or game
system, there is an increased risk of a kind of adversarial relationship
developing between GM and players, as the players constantly try to "win"
the game by "beating" the GM. This sort of competition very frequently
involves an unwillingness to cooperate in developing an adventure; either
the GM tries to treat the PCs as controllable characters in a story he's
telling, or the players make zero effort to take into account what the GM
has planned, i.e. "After several days travel, your party is approaching the
gates of Fantasy City." "I don't feel like a city adventure this week. We
keep going. Let us know when we get to the Mystic Woods."
I don't think this situation will fully develop in this campaign. All the
players have experience in some RPGs and almost everyone in the group has
DMed/GMed their own campaigns in some game system or other. That gives
everyone a good idea of what it's like on both sides of the table. Our
initial problems here might have more to do with the scale of the campaign
than anything else; as Douglas Adams observed, "Space is big."
> And if that doesn't work, you can always have the party captured by
>space pirates, have to steal one of THEIR ships, and then try to convince the
>authoirties they are not the real pirates themselves...
Space pirates again. I confess the whole pirate concept doesn't much
appeal to me, but the las suggestion involving pirates was potentially
workable, and so is this one. If I get the idea they'd respond positively
to being drawn into that kind of situation, I'll use it.
>
> Involve them in something that is bigger than what they 'want' to do....
I'll have to have a better notion of what they want first. Right now what
they want to do is vaguely described at best, and at times seems bigger
than the campaign.
> Say the doctor was working on some 'space-bug' he quit his former job to get
>away but was killed before he could leak any information and now they have
>installed HIS lab equipment----nice place to put a copy of the 'space-bug'
>research-----Now the party has proof of some scientific/military/insane
>group/anything else conspiracy/plot/plan etc... 3 star systems, 50 cities,
>terra formed moon, and mars-----plenty of space to run from/to something
Done the wrong way, the above could recall the only Traveller game I ever
played, in which my research scientist character was brought to summary
court for being involved in capturing Aslan and Vargr for medical
experiments. He hadn't been searched, so he made his escape by pulling out
his stun blaster, shooting the magistrate and running. Sadly, the elderly
judge couldn't stand a stun charge meant for hardier non-human races, and
he died. My character was forced to flee to the low-tech Sword Worlds; end
of a promising reserch career.
Done the right way, the above could be a very interesting story arc and
give everyone several things to do to keep them occupied. I'll need time
to plan that, of course, so I might have to stretch the undersea survey out
for a couple of sessions. We are still playing the other campaigns as
well, so I'm in a rotation that should allow me time. The biggest
difficulty I can see off hand is how they'd continue to take legitimate
jobs for profit while being on the run all the time. I don't want to turn
them into a gang of smugglers, and that's not what they want either (I know
that much, because they voted it down when they were brainstorming for a
group job description early in the planning stages).
Thanks for the input.
Damon
----------------------------------------------------------
Check the Star Hero campaign pages at
<http://www.txdirect.net/~griffin/starhero.htm>
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 05:55:33 -0700
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Grond?
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At 07:38 PM 4/28/1998 -0700, Rick Holding wrote:
>Can somebody please tell who or what Grond is? Some stats could be
>nice. I get the impression he is a walking major disaster looking for a
party.
Grond (most recently written up in Classic Enemies) is The Classic Dumb
Brick. He has the strength (90) of a hundred locomotives, the intelligence
(5) of a retarded amoeba, and the temper of a rabid pit bull who regained
consciousness while in the process of being castrated. He has
greenish-gray skin, four arms, amphibian-looking ears, two small white
horns (arranged frontally rather than laterally), and a perpetual scowl.
He's easily manipulated, and *very* cranky when he realizes he's been
tricked (which is quite often, actually).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: META: The List
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:58:26 -0400
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Amazing. I'm on seven lists right now and this is the only one that ever
has any problems with Reply-to and/or Tags.
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au&>
champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Grond?
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:07:48 -0400
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Tough, four arms, and bench presses battleships for a light workout.
Jason Goode
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rick Holding [SMTP:rholding@ActOnline.com.au]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 10:38 PM
> To: champion mailing list
> Subject: Grond?
>
> Can somebody please tell who or what Grond is? Some stats could be
> nice. I get the impression he is a walking major disaster looking for a
> party.
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
> Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
> -----------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 06:18:33 -0700
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
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At 10:49 PM 4/27/1998 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> >* European Enemies
>>
>> It's not for nothing that this book has been nicknamed "Plan Nine from
>> Hero Games." It certainly is the lowest quality item Hero has ever put
>> out, and even if they hadn't raised their standards considerably since then
>> it would still be likely to hold that title for a very long time. The
>> biggest problem comes from the fact that nearly all of the characters are
>> drawn from either cliches or stereotypes; the second biggest comes from a
>
>Indeed. The Swiss character makes clocks, the English character is an
>archer, the French guy is modeled after Napoleon, the Monaco character
>uses a gambling motif, the Iltalian is in the Mafia... it is pretty poor.
Of course, as I mention elsewhere, even this wouldn't be so bad if the
author had gone past the stereotypes to create interesting characters.
Only with Inquisition, Silhouette, and Zephyr are the cliched characters
expanded into something with a twist or a little depth.
>> number of typos and rules gaffes. (What's Chromedome's STR? How does
>> Increased STUN Mod apply to Energy Blast under the 4th Ed rules?) On the
>
>Also pay close attention to character descriptions and their write-ups.
>You get an acne scarred man with (like) a 20 COM. There is a guy with a
>6d6 EB only usable within his gas cloud. His gas cloud is always on...
>Hoarfrost kills herself is she uses her No Range RKA.
On Hoarfrost, are you meaning her No Range BODY/STUN Drain (which has
the No Range Limitation despite the fact that Drain is already a No Range
Power)?
>> other hand, it's not quite the 101% piece of trash that others have deemed
>> it, either. There are a couple of surprisingly useful characters, such as
>> the vicious female stretcher known as Doppleganger (whom I have added to
>> Eurostar's roster in my campaign) or the cosmic-powered Despoiler. If it
>
>I dunnno. I can usually pick a few characters out of any supplement that
>appeal to me. EE has given me ZERO in all the time I've had it.
Well, I've mentioned that I actually like Doppleganger; and I can find
some use for Argent Anarky, the Warsaw Pact team (I also like Carpathia),
Despoiler, and Glacier.
(On the other hand, I find Thespian so repulsive that I frequently bring
him back from the dead any time I can come up with another way to kill him.
None of it's happened in play -- it's all in the background history -- but
if it had I'm sure the players would nickname him Kenny (or maybe Paul
Winfield).
>> comes out on Hero Plus, I'd suggest getting it and printing out just the
>> good characters; otherwise buy it from a discount shelf (don't pay over $10
>> for it) or wait for the Second Edition that was being discussed a couple of
>> years ago.
>
>Yeah, well I can't think of any good characters.
>
>> As useless as this book is for a globetrotting campaign, it's almost
>> completely useless for one that isn't. I think you can take a pass on it
>> unless you have some reason to send your PCs to Europe, or just want it for
>> background material.
>
>I agree, give EE a big pass. Buy GRUPS IST instead, you can probably get
>better European character ideas out of that instead (I know that I did).
>
>***************************************************************************
>* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
>* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
>* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:
*
>* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
>* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
>* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
>***************************************************************************
>
>
>
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 06:18:59 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
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At 03:35 AM 4/28/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
>Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
>
>> Indeed. The Swiss character makes clocks, the English character is an
>> archer, the French guy is modeled after Napoleon, the Monaco character
>> uses a gambling motif, the Iltalian is in the Mafia... it is pretty poor.
>
> And what's wrong with stereotypes for a short jaunt to Europe.
Nothing's really *wrong* per se with using stereotypes as a starting
point. The problem here is that the author almost never steps beyond the
stereotypes to give us characters that are truly interesting.
>> Hoarfrost kills herself is she uses her No Range RKA. There is a Fractal
>> Energies EC (a what?). This same character (Mandelbrot) has 16 points for
>> a computer, except there are no statsgiven for this computer (and a 300
>> END Reserve to run it!) Oh, and he's Hunted by a RPG company! What sort
>> of diads are these?
>
> Hey! I _like_ Mandelbrot. Why are Fractal Energies any less
>believable then Mystical Flame? And Hunted by the T$R of a gaming world
>might actually be worth something, if you consider possible ties to real
>alternate dimensions. The computer is fine, though needs to be written
>up. The END reserve is trash.
Mandelbrot isn't Hunted by TSR, he's hunted by ICE; and it's worth 20
points for an 8-, which indicates More Powerful with NCI.
Reading the text of the character will clear up what is meant by
"Fractal Energies"; its simple listing on the character sheet is ambiguous.
>> I agree, give EE a big pass. Buy GRUPS IST instead, you can probably get
>> better European character ideas out of that instead (I know that I did).
>
> Don't listen to him. I've tried to convert GURPS Supers
>characters, and found it n excercise in futility. The EE characters at
>least have stats resembling those of the Hero Rules.
I'd say which route to go depends on whether you want the characters
just as background, or to actually use them. If the former, EE is the
better buy; if you want to use them, get GURPS IST and make up stats (I've
never seen the book, but I'm sure the characters are more gripping).
---
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:33:56 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Grond?
Cc: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Rick Holding
>Can somebody please tell who or what Grond is? Some stats could be
nice. I get the impression he is a walking major disaster looking for a
party.<
Grond is one of the published villains who has been around since at least
2nd Edition Champions. He's this hulking green guy with four arms and
"Grond smash!" type smarts. He has a 90 STRength, which I think is the
most ever given to a published villain (but I don't own every supplement
either). Basically, he's a Hulk clone, but that doesn't bother me a
bit...if they didn't provide one, I would probably create one myself.
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 07:55:01 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
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David B Stallard wrote:
>
> Also, I realize the last one (Fantasy Hero) probably requires a lengthy
> review, but I'm more curious about the setting than in the rules.
> Basically, my impression has been that it tells you how to to run a fantasy
> game, but it is pretty sparse on specific setting information--the GM
> either has to make one up or "steal" one from another system. I think it
> did come with a setting but it was pretty small and was better used as an
> example rather than as your campaign setting. How accurate is that?
* Fantasy Hero line (including Companion and whatever else exists)
I'll take this one on. The rules are solid. The setting is a pretty
basic generic fantasy world. I've used it as the core for my FH campaign
for years, but I added in a whole bunch of backstory, and expanded the
continents. There is a adventuring company presented 'the Flashing
Blades' who have some interesting concepts and backgrounds, and work
well as an NPC team (I've used them as an experienced team training some
upstarts: the PCs.)
The Spell colleges- UGGG. The sample spell 'system' just sucks. There
are some things in it that to me are just rule crocks, and the schools
don't hang together very well.
The first companion isn't too bad. It has some generic mapped settings
(a bar, a keep that sort of thing), more spell colleges (ugg) and some
other info. As I understand it, most of the stuff in the first
compainion was slated for release in the FH book, but lack of space
warrented a second book.
The second companion is a total waste of dead trees. It presents a who
slew of mage package deals and spell colleges to go with them, and to be
honest it could have been done as one package with a KS:Specific style
of magic and then had a couple of special spells for each style. It also
presents a new End stat or something (I haven't read it in years). Avoid
like the plauge. To me it felt like a Rolemaster companion but they got
the system switched.
If you can get them the spell book and Magic Items for 1st ed FH, are
gems. Aaron Alston co wrote one or both of them. The spell and item
rules are first ed, so if you are not used to them they look pretty
strange, but there is an in depth discussion in the Spell book about
creating your own magic system. It goes power by power, advantage by
advantage, limitation by limitation explaining how requiring or
completely disallowing each (or groups of them) can mean to the feel of
your magic system, and thence your world. Highly recomended.
The beastiary is cheesy, with some AD&D ripoffs and some interesting
Sci-fi stuff in it, but it is usefull to have around. Note however that
the writeups do not match the writeups of the same/similar things in the
FH book. Horses are fairly different for example.
Hope it helps.
Time for a plug 8)
Visit my FH page at:
http://relia.net/~mhoram/hero/FHsplash1.htm
--
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages,
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and
goes through their pockets. -- Eddy Peters
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 10:09:33 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Grond
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> Of course, more recently he's been recruited by Doctor Destroyer to
lead
a group called the Elementals, of whom he is the smartest (others include
Glacier, Genetic Deviant X, Griffin, Black Death, Lava, and the like).<
Bob, your favorite supplements must be all the ones I don't own, because
you always mention characters I've never heard of. -grin- Of that list,
the only one I've heard of is Griffin (Classic Enemies). Genetic Deviant X
sounds like he might come from the Mutant File, but I have no idea where
the others appear. Wait a minute...I just caught that part about Grond
being the smartest member of that group. Yikes!
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Grond?
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 10:29:43 EDT
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> Can somebody please tell who or what Grond is? Some stats could be
> nice. I get the impression he is a walking major disaster looking for
a
> party.
If you can hunt up a copy of Enemies II, he's the big green critter on
the front cover. I don't know if he's in Classic Enemies (why buy it
when I've already colored in most of the pictures in my copies of Enemies
I-III?)
Leah
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:36:17 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Grond
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
>From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
> >Subject: Grond
> >
> >Does anybody have some interesting ways that Grond has been used in a
> >campaign?
A while ago I ran a plot based around Firewings origin. He kidnapped 4
supers (2 heroes two villians) to take back home to the gladitorial
arena to show his people a representation of Earth fighters; his final
argument for the invasion.
The heroes were a aupersuit and a green lantern type (although most
people didn't know about that). The villians were a murderous Wolverine
gone bad type and Grond.
When they were in the arena, the kept sending interesting things against
Grond. The ended up with dinasouars. He kept heaving them out of the
coloseaum. The heroes contacted the Star Guard (the GL type
orginization), got the planet penalized, and Grond stayed there. He was
the most successfull Gladiator since Firewing.
It seemed a nice way to retire him for a while, and he is content.
--
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages,
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and
goes through their pockets. -- Eddy Peters
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:43:08 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Grond
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David B Stallard wrote:
>
> Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> > Of course, more recently he's been recruited by Doctor Destroyer to
> lead
> a group called the Elementals, of whom he is the smartest (others include
> Glacier, Genetic Deviant X, Griffin, Black Death, Lava, and the like).<
>
> Bob, your favorite supplements must be all the ones I don't own, because
> you always mention characters I've never heard of. -grin- Of that list,
> the only one I've heard of is Griffin (Classic Enemies). Genetic Deviant X
> sounds like he might come from the Mutant File, but I have no idea where
> the others appear. Wait a minute...I just caught that part about Grond
> being the smartest member of that group. Yikes!
Lava was in Enemies the International File (I think)
Genetic Deviant X (Brainssssss) was in Atlas
The others I think I remember seeing but don't remember where.
--
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages,
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and
goes through their pockets. -- Eddy Peters
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 10:58:48 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> I think you mean, for the *first* three, don't you? :-] <
Doh! I wrote "last three" and then rearranged the list for some reason.
> Yeah, I seem to be pretty adept at writing fairly thorough reviews of
all the old books. If anyone still has copies of them, and wants to
archive them to a website somewhere, feel free to do so. (Just let me
know, so I can link them.)<
I have all your reviews filed away (I think...I have most, anyway) so I can
use them when ordering some 4E supplements (which I'll be doing soon). I
don't have a website that I can throw 'em on, but I can forward them all
back to you if you want.
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
Cc: hero-l@omg.org
Subject: RE: Bab 5 racial package deals
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:29:05 -0400
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Except that this directly contradicts the show, where we see a number of
example of the Minbari's superior constitution and endurance, as well as
characters commenting on it (recall Dr. Franklin's "If she were human, she'd
be dead by now."). I made this comment over on that list way back before it
came out and they were just showing the sample char creation rules on the
web. I was told that this was done for game balance reasons in the Babylon
Project. Its there to keep the Minbari from being superhumans (a hold over
from the AD&D myth that every player will always want to play the elven
characters just because they are "better" than humans.)
Jason Goode
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tokyo Mark [SMTP:bastet@iquest.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 1:03 AM
> To: bastet@iquest.net
> Cc: hero-l@omg.org
> Subject: Re: Bab 5 racial package deals
>
>
> > Mimbari: cost 7
>
> > Con 13/23 12
>
> I'd probably leave this at 10. Minbari in the book have the same
> endurance as Humans.
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:30:02 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Classic Enemies
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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We've already gone through a "favorite characters" thread, but I thought
I'd try getting a little more specific and ask what are some of your
favorite and least favorite villains in Classic Enemies (I picked this book
since I think of it as the "baseline" villain book that most GMs probably
own)? Do you use any of the more unusual villains in the book in addition
to the staples (the villain teams, Dr. Destroyer, etc)? My list below is
all from memory since I don't have the book with me--I'm surprised I was
able to remember so many!
Likes:
One of my past GMs absolutely loved Rainbow Archer, and I like her as well,
although not so fanatically. I like Ladybug, but then I'm a sucker for
powered armor (Ankylosaur is another favorite). I think Timemaster could
be an interesting master villain, but I've only used him in one
foreshadowing encounter which never evolved into the full story. Let me
think... I like Leech as a "freak" type villain, and Firewing seems to
have a lot of possibilities. As a quirky villain, I think I like Blowtorch
(it's been a while since I looked at him), although I think he'd probably
make most people's "lame" list. Bulldozer is good for comedy relief, since
he thinks he's so tough but is really a lightweight. Grond is great, and
for some reason I really like that brick from Terror Inc too. Mechassassin
also seems like he could have potential as a recurring elusive villain.
Black Paladin also has some potential, but he really comes into his own in
his Champions: New Millennium rewrite.
Dislikes:
I've never been fond of that entire Project Sunburst writeup. I also don't
like that big energy creature from one of the villain teams (is his name
Plasmoid?). I've always thought Shamrock was goofy, and the first few
villains in the solo section (Avar-7 is one) never did much for me either.
Power Crusher always turned me off for some reason, but then I haven't had
a whole lot of experience with adjustment powers in my past campaigns.
However, seeing that he's now the leader of the popular Crusher Gang, I
have a feeling he's popular with other GMs--I'll probably reconsider him
the next time I go through that book. Another villain I don't like is that
brick who wears a mask to cover his face (I forget his name). The last
three villains--I think they are Thunderbolt, Utility, and Vibron--have
always turned me off too, but I'm not sure way, since Thunderbolt seems
like a classic electricity controller and Vibron a classic speedster. I
always thought that they could do a better job than Black Claw for a
Wolverine-type character, and Black Diamond is another one I'm not fond of.
Another GM had a fondness for Dark Seraph, but I've never found much use
for him.
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:30:10 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Grond?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Leah L Watts
>If you can hunt up a copy of Enemies II, he's the big green critter on
the front cover. I don't know if he's in Classic Enemies (why buy it
when I've already colored in most of the pictures in my copies of Enemies
I-III?)<
I only have Enemies II, and one of the main reasons I bought Classic
Enemies was because I would finally get a writeup on Ankylosaur. For some
reason I've always had a thing for him...his armor just looks cool or
something. -grin- I remember a little comic strip in either Champions II
or Champions III where Ankylosaur is fighting Red Shield...from that moment
on, I had been looking for an Ankylosaur writeup. I knew he was in either
Enemies or Enemies III, but for some reason never ordered those. Anyway,
Classic Enemies has been extremely useful apart from letting me learn about
Anky, but that was a selling point for me.... Speaking of Enemies II, in
several cases I prefer that old art to what was used in Classic Enemies
(Slug comes to mind, but there are several other examples...I think Plague
is another).
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:36:02 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Grond
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At 02:20 PM 4/28/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: Grond
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade
>> Of course, more recently he's been recruited by Doctor Destroyer to lead
>a group called the Elementals, of whom he is the smartest (others include
>Glacier, Genetic Deviant X, Griffin, Black Death, Lava, and the like).<
>
>Bob, your favorite supplements must be all the ones I don't own, because
>you always mention characters I've never heard of. -grin- Of that list,
>the only one I've heard of is Griffin (Classic Enemies). Genetic Deviant X
>sounds like he might come from the Mutant File, but I have no idea where
>the others appear. Wait a minute...I just caught that part about Grond
>being the smartest member of that group. Yikes!
Actually the other characters mentioned above are all from 3rd Edition
supplements (except Glacier, from European Enemies). Genetic Deviant X is
from Atlas Uleashed; Black Death is from Wrath of the Seven Horsemen; and
Lava is from Enemies: the International File.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:36:59 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
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At 03:16 PM 4/28/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade
>> I think you mean, for the *first* three, don't you? :-] <
>
>Doh! I wrote "last three" and then rearranged the list for some reason.
>
>> Yeah, I seem to be pretty adept at writing fairly thorough reviews of
>all the old books. If anyone still has copies of them, and wants to
>archive them to a website somewhere, feel free to do so. (Just let me
>know, so I can link them.)<
>
>I have all your reviews filed away (I think...I have most, anyway) so I can
>use them when ordering some 4E supplements (which I'll be doing soon). I
>don't have a website that I can throw 'em on, but I can forward them all
>back to you if you want.
Keep ahold of them in case someone else wants them. :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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From: Miq Millman <miq@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: META: The List
To: JGoode@medrad.com (Goode Jason)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:45:39 -0700 (PDT)
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Goode, Jason says:
>
> Amazing. I'm on seven lists right now and this is the only one that ever
> has any problems with Reply-to and/or Tags.
Is this the only one with Rat on it?
Frankly Rat, your "explanation" for problems is full of crap. I run 10
majordomo lists with an average subscriber population of 350, and average
number of daily messages in the 50-70 range. All have tag's in the
subject, none have ever had any problems with "mixed up threads". Perhaps
its your attitude of "holier than thou" and "secret programmers ball" that
is having problems.
I don't buy it.
Rat, I respect your opinions, I may disagree on occaision with them, but I
still respect your right to have them. But backing up ideas based on your
small subset of personal experience with a minor mail and news reader, and
touting it as "how things are done" is a little heavy handed.
I'll appologize right now for the seeming tone of this note, but I think it
needed to be said.
--
__
Miq Millman miq@teleport.com
Tualatin, OR
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Classic Enemies
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:24:57 -0700
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I can't comment very much on who I like or dislike, since I gave my copy
away many years ago, so I'll just comment on the original comments...
David Stallard likes:
>Rainbow Archer
I like the concept, but IIRC, doesn't she have a 30+ DEX but still
presented as a normal human? That's the part that gets to me about her.
>I like Leech as a "freak" type villain,
I never got much into him, but then a GM used Leech, Slug, and some
other similar villain (Parasite?) in a con-game scenario, and it was
kind of cool to see the "freak squad" work together.
>and Firewing seems to have a lot of possibilities.
Yes. He's a Fire Lord (Galactus' herald) rip-off, but he's so much fun
to use. Huge attacks and arrogance go well together for him.
>Grond is great,
Yes. He's a great pawn and disaster area.
>Black Paladin also has some potential, but he really comes into his own
>in his Champions: New Millennium rewrite.
The rewrite didn't seem all that different to me, really, but I guess we
had always played him well. An honorable but evil villain makes for a
lot of fun. What really threw me was when Mike Nunn revised his
mace-throw attack to be indirect (since he learned to teleport it as
well as himself).
David Stallard likes:
>Utility [has] always turned me off too, but I'm not sure why
I've always thought he was pretty cool. He's the Batman of armor
villains. He always prepares.
>Black Diamond is another one I'm not fond of.
I always love to use her, since she looks and acts almost exactly like a
friend of most of the gaming group. It cracks us up. "Whattya lookin'
at, ya moron?"
In general, Classic Enemies is very good. It's definitely in my top ten
Hero products. Maybe even fairly high on the list.
Dave Mattingly
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:29:07 -0700
To: David B Stallard <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Classic Enemies
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>Likes:
>One of my past GMs absolutely loved Rainbow Archer, and I like her as well,
>although not so fanatically.
I think the Rainbow Archer is wretched, look at those STATS!!!!! She is
supposed to be an olympic archer... normal person, what is up with that crap?
----------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:34:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Grond?
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> Can somebody please tell who or what Grond is? Some stats could be
> nice. I get the impression he is a walking major disaster looking for a party.
4-armed green brick with a 90 STR. Enough said.
You can find him in Classic Enemies.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:36:02 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Grond?
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> > Can somebody please tell who or what Grond is? Some stats could be
> > nice. I get the impression he is a walking major disaster looking for a
> party.
> as a matter of fact, i have no idea who he is either. ..
Now you're making me feel old. I'm too young to feel old.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:41:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
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> Of course, as I mention elsewhere, even this wouldn't be so bad if the
> author had gone past the stereotypes to create interesting characters.
> Only with Inquisition, Silhouette, and Zephyr are the cliched characters
> expanded into something with a twist or a little depth.
Good points. I did like the Huntsman for a horror-themed session.
Godfather was about the worst, though. However, I've been
planning on using his writeup as a basis for Kaiser Sosek. Anyone want to
work on that one?
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:46:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
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> Nothing's really *wrong* per se with using stereotypes as a starting
> point. The problem here is that the author almost never steps beyond the
> stereotypes to give us characters that are truly interesting.
True, but as a GM I've always made that a bit of my own job. Many
of the earlier Champions works included very stereotyped characters.
> Mandelbrot isn't Hunted by TSR, he's hunted by ICE; and it's worth 20
> points for an 8-, which indicates More Powerful with NCI.
Well, I was trying to go by memory. As is, that works as a
hunted. See the International Consortium for Execution in Murderer's Row.
But I see your point. ICE just doesn't seem enough for MoPow with
NCI. Games Workshop or Wizards of the Coast, however . . .
> Reading the text of the character will clear up what is meant by
> "Fractal Energies"; its simple listing on the character sheet is ambiguous.
And I liked it. I have a campaign villian with a similar power
set manipulating "string energies".
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:49:33 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Grond
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> Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> > Of course, more recently he's been recruited by Doctor Destroyer to
> lead
> a group called the Elementals, of whom he is the smartest (others include
> Glacier, Genetic Deviant X, Griffin, Black Death, Lava, and the like).<
>
> Bob, your favorite supplements must be all the ones I don't own, because
> you always mention characters I've never heard of. -grin- Of that list,
> the only one I've heard of is Griffin (Classic Enemies). Genetic Deviant X
> sounds like he might come from the Mutant File, but I have no idea where
> the others appear. Wait a minute...I just caught that part about Grond
> being the smartest member of that group. Yikes!
Genetic Deviant X was in Atlas Unleashed. Lava was in Enemies:
The International File. Glacier was EE? Black Death was either Enemies:
The International File or Villiany Unbound.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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From: "WG Rowland" <rowland@cts.com>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Could someone set me straight?
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:54:54 -0700
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I think I missed something important.. I was gone for a day, and when I
came back I had over a 1000 emails (I'm on this list, a writing list, and
five programming lists for work).. Anyway I reflexively deleted a LOT of
stuff without reading it, and since then I've been receiving email from this
list and also stuff from Hero-l??? Did this group split or something? I
need to know what address the other stuff will be coming from so I can
filter it into it's own folder... (I get too much stuff to leave
unfiltered).. Also if it's a separate list how do I send to it?
Thanks in advance..
WGR
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Subject: The Usual Suspects
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:30:56 -0400
x-sender: dfair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <dfair@sdslink.com>
To: "Hero Games" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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> Godfather was about the worst, though. However, I've been
>planning on using his writeup as a basis for Kaiser Sosek. Anyone want to
>work on that one?
Kaiser Soze: needs at least two secret ID's (you don't think that lefty
there was the only one, do you?) and hoards of tactics and streetwise
skills. Should have lots of PRE (23+) and a helluva REP. Average to Good
handgun skills, acting, High Society (maybe), Persuasion, oratory,
shadowing, stealth, and an INT in the 18-22 range. Oh yeah, EGO has to
be, say 23, though I may be able to be talked lower on that one. STR of
12, DEX 11, CON 16 (didn't he get shot in that altercation back in
<foreign country of origin>, if not then maybe lower), COM 10, and 2 dice
of Luck.
God, I loved that movie!
David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 10:41:06 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 04:50 PM 4/28/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
>Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
>Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
>
>> Mandelbrot isn't Hunted by TSR, he's hunted by ICE; and it's worth 20
>> points for an 8-, which indicates More Powerful with NCI.
>
> Well, I was trying to go by memory. As is, that works as a
>hunted. See the International Consortium for Execution in Murderer's Row.
The character sheet actually says, "Iron Crown Enterprises."
Translating it to the International Consortium for Execution might work.
>> Reading the text of the character will clear up what is meant by
>> "Fractal Energies"; its simple listing on the character sheet is ambiguous.
>
> And I liked it. I have a campaign villian with a similar power
>set manipulating "string energies".
I didn't mind it either. Taken just from the character sheet, it looks
stupid; once explained, it's really kinda neat. (And Mandelbrot is, after
all, one of the few characters not taken from a national cliche.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Houston, we have a problem
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 28 Apr 1998 14:12:43 -0400
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Tim R Gilberg writes:
>> Definitely. "Average" heroic charcters -- that is, characters with a
>> bit of history behind them before the start of the game -- are 75 + 75.
>> The "fresh out of the accademy" rookie is probably going to be a good 50
>> points less than that.
> The Gospel According To Rat!
The Gospel According to the BBB and several other official Hero sources.
Even 100 points is a lot for a "wet behind the ears" character when he is
not paying for powers and such.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
\ Earth, presumably from outer space.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: META: The List
Reply-To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 28 Apr 1998 14:27:48 -0400
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Miq Millman writes:
> Frankly Rat, your "explanation" for problems is full of crap. [blah blah
> blah]
My "small subset of personal experience" includes the Gnus development
cabal (about 250 people) and the entirety of Usenet.
Just because you have not yet had a problem does not mean you never will.
You clearly have never seen a mail hub throttled to death due to a mail
loop caused by a bad Reply-To header, nor have you had to clean up the mess
afterwards. I have. I never want to do it again, and I would save anyone
else that experience.
You clearly have never seen the kind of brokenness that tags can create. I
have. I wrote a significant chunk of the code in Gnus that attempts to
deal with such things. It breaks much too frequently due to mail and news
clients doing things badly.
Your outright dismissal of my explanation is what is full of crap. I have
been there; you have not.
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
\
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: META: The List
To: miq@teleport.com (Miq Millman <miq@teleport.com&g> champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:39:59 -0400 (EDT)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Goode, Jason says:
> >
> > Amazing. I'm on seven lists right now and this is the only one that ever
> > has any problems with Reply-to and/or Tags.
>
> Is this the only one with Rat on it?
>
> Frankly Rat, your "explanation" for problems is full of crap. I run 10
> majordomo lists with an average subscriber population of 350, and average
> number of daily messages in the 50-70 range. All have tag's in the
> subject, none have ever had any problems with "mixed up threads". Perhaps
> its your attitude of "holier than thou" and "secret programmers ball" that
> is having problems.
>
> I don't buy it.
>
> Rat, I respect your opinions, I may disagree on occaision with them, but I
> still respect your right to have them. But backing up ideas based on your
> small subset of personal experience with a minor mail and news reader, and
> touting it as "how things are done" is a little heavy handed.
It is not just Rat who does not like this idea. I am dead set against it.
Every problem Rat listed in his last post is a problem I have had will
listservers. None of the three lists I'm on now have automatic tags and I
don't need any of them to start having tags.
I'll go lie down now.
Joe
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:57:17 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Characters in Fifth?]
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Okay, folks, let's pay attention. Although the ORIGINAL question of
this message thread asked about Super Characters in the new HSR, it was
almost immediately decided/mentioned that 1)It was NOT a
superhero-specific book, thus would have a smattering of genres for
examples, and 2)... actually, let me seperate this to be clear and
bold...
...and 2)the discussion has since then been about characters in a
potential Champions 5th edition Genre book. So please read the header
oh this thread to mean
"Re: Characters in Fifth?" as in 5th edition Champions Genre
supplement.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled niggling.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:04:52 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Big teams or powerful villains?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
After having created no fewer than 12 villains for no more than two games
of my current campaign, I am wondering if maybe I'm doing something wrong.
I've got six players in my current group, more than I usually have. I'm
wondering if it might not be wiser to oppose them with smaller numbers of
more powerful villains. My problem is that a sufficiently powerful villain
can probably 'take out' one hero per phase, unless the heroes are very
lucky or very well coordinated. (All my previous villains were roughly
on-par with the heroes in terms of power)
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:30:35 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> > Well, I was trying to go by memory. As is, that works as a
> >hunted. See the International Consortium for Execution in Murderer's Row.
>
> The character sheet actually says, "Iron Crown Enterprises."
> Translating it to the International Consortium for Execution might work.
Well, again, I haven't been able to bring myself to get that book
out. But I wouldn't rate Iron Crown that tough.
The funny thing is, I made a personal villian group called I.C.E.
-- The International Company of Evil -- before Murderer's row came out.
I've since renamed the personal creation.
> I didn't mind it either. Taken just from the character sheet, it looks
> stupid; once explained, it's really kinda neat. (And Mandelbrot is, after
> all, one of the few characters not taken from a national cliche.)
Quite true. I've been meaning to bring him to the States as a
solo villian.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:38:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Big teams or powerful villains?
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
---Lizard wrote:
>
> After having created no fewer than 12 villains for no more than two
games
> of my current campaign, I am wondering if maybe I'm doing something
wrong.
>
> I've got six players in my current group, more than I usually have.
I'm
> wondering if it might not be wiser to oppose them with smaller
numbers of
> more powerful villains. My problem is that a sufficiently powerful
villain
> can probably 'take out' one hero per phase, unless the heroes are very
> lucky or very well coordinated. (All my previous villains were roughly
> on-par with the heroes in terms of power)
>From a pure (lazy) referee point of view I prefer to run a small
number (sometimes one) powerful villain - it give me l fewer things to
keep track of. In most other respects though I like to spread things
out more with either a villian group of approx the same number of
people as the hero group or use agent teams - I find that it gives the
PCs more opportunity to "do things", which tends to make the palyers
happier.
The idea of a coordinated team taking down a single mega-villain is
great, and 4th edition did make it easier from a rules perspective,
but actually getting the PLAYERS to work together is sometime difficult.
-=>John D.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:42:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Could someone set me straight?
To: WG Rowland <rowland@cts.com&> champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
---WG Rowland wrote:
>
> I think I missed something important.. I was gone for a day, and
when I
> came back I had over a 1000 emails (I'm on this list, a writing
list, and
> five programming lists for work).. Anyway I reflexively deleted a
LOT of
> stuff without reading it, and since then I've been receiving email
from this
> list and also stuff from Hero-l??? Did this group split or
something? I
> need to know what address the other stuff will be coming from so I can
> filter it into it's own folder... (I get too much stuff to leave
> unfiltered).. Also if it's a separate list how do I send to it?
>
> Thanks in advance..
>
> WGR
Over the lifespan of the Champions Mailing list it has had several
different address and names <hero-l> and <champ-l> being two of them.
While Geoff was maitaining the list he supported (via aliases) several
of the previous names. At his request, when I took over I set up the
same basic idea allowing, for example, a member to send to
<hero-l@sysabend.org> or <champ-l@sysabend.org> to post to the list.
It's all the same list, there are just several aliases set up on the
mail server for it.
==
John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
============================================
Got a question about the list? Just ask. Or, you can go
look over at www.sysabend.org/champions. I've been
slowly posting information about the list there.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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From: "R & B" <bswarren@flash.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: The Usual Suspects
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:58:01 -0500
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Hi All,
>Kaiser Soze: needs at least two secret ID's (you don't think that lefty
>there was the only one, do you?) and hoards of tactics and streetwise
>skills. Should have lots of PRE (23+) and a helluva REP. Average to Good
>handgun skills, acting, High Society (maybe), Persuasion, oratory,
>shadowing, stealth, and an INT in the 18-22 range. Oh yeah, EGO has to
>be, say 23, though I may be able to be talked lower on that one. STR of
>12, DEX 11, CON 16 (didn't he get shot in that altercation back in
><foreign country of origin>, if not then maybe lower), COM 10, and 2 dice
>of Luck.
Several deep covers from DC (2 pts ea.) would work better than multiple
secret ids, but I do agree with the point you were making he has several
deep covers.
REP: should probably be within a limited group (organized crime) "The
invisible & invincible crime lord" 11- extreme
I love the movie also.
Randy
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From: "R & B" <bswarren@flash.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: The Gospel
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 16:06:02 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
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>>The Gospel According to the BBB and several other official Hero sources.
Even 100 points is a lot for a "wet behind the ears" character when he is
not paying for powers and such.>>>>
In a super heroic campaign yes, a 100 pt wet behind the ears character is a
little too much. However, in heroic (say DC, Heroic Space, super agents
ect..) games depending on how you view PS, KS, and SS it doesn't do the job.
Most of the hero books give RANGES for play, that is probably what needs to
be kept in mind. Balance the game.
PS - we don't need to open the my PS is better than your PS bag.
Randy
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:57:27 -0700
To: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com&> champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Eric Chauvin <calicajun@prtcl.com>
Subject: Re: Big teams or powerful villains?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 12:04 PM 4/28/98 -0700, you wrote:
>After having created no fewer than 12 villains for no more than two games
>of my current campaign, I am wondering if maybe I'm doing something wrong.
>
>I've got six players in my current group, more than I usually have. I'm
>wondering if it might not be wiser to oppose them with smaller numbers of
>more powerful villains. My problem is that a sufficiently powerful villain
>can probably 'take out' one hero per phase, unless the heroes are very
>lucky or very well coordinated. (All my previous villains were roughly
>on-par with the heroes in terms of power)
>
I have always enjoyed the powerful villains take. This forces your players
to work as a team, & not as a bunch of boxers in adjacent rings. To give
them more to punch, throw in a group of lower level supers or brute squad.
This will get them warmed up for the big fight. The reason you want a lower
power level brut squad (50 to 100 pts less than your average hero) is so
that the first combat doesn't take to long. Just quickly hash a couple of
them out like agents, & you have an exciting tool that will please everyone
in the game. If the big villain takes out a couple of heros then the other
players must work together even more.
____________________________
GET-EM!!! THAT'S THE PLAN?!?
---------------------------------------------
Eric Chauvin
calicajun@prtcl.com
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:05:27 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Eric Chauvin <calicajun@prtcl.com>
Subject: looking for gamers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I am currently in a group that games one to two days a week right now.
Unfortunately there has arisen a few problems as of late & we may be forced
to disband. I am looking for gamers in the Southern California ( I live in
South Orange County ) area who are interested in getting together once a
week. If you are interested please submit to the list or e-mail me direct.
Thanks
____________________________
GET-EM!!! THAT'S THE PLAN?!?
---------------------------------------------
Eric Chauvin
calicajun@prtcl.com
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Reply-To: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com>
From: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com>
To: "Hero System Listserv" <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Have some consideration, please.
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:18:10 -0400
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I understand that people will have differences of opinion. That's fine by
me. But would you PLEASE keep the name calling and the flame wars OFF the
list. I am getting tired of getting that kind of message.
This is a listserve for discussion, not derision.
Lisa Hartjes
beren@unforgettable.com
Home: http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/daniken/79
"It's not supposed to be making that noise, is it."
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:38:26 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Big teams or powerful villains?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 12:04 PM 4/28/1998 -0700, Lizard wrote:
>After having created no fewer than 12 villains for no more than two games
>of my current campaign, I am wondering if maybe I'm doing something wrong.
>
>I've got six players in my current group, more than I usually have. I'm
>wondering if it might not be wiser to oppose them with smaller numbers of
>more powerful villains. My problem is that a sufficiently powerful villain
>can probably 'take out' one hero per phase, unless the heroes are very
>lucky or very well coordinated. (All my previous villains were roughly
>on-par with the heroes in terms of power)
I say split the difference. Create villains that are about as powerful
as your PC group -- or, better yet, a slightly smaller group (in this case,
five) who are individually slightly more powerful than any single PC.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:14:13 -0500
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Houston, we have a problem
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>Tim R Gilberg writes:
>
>>> Definitely. "Average" heroic charcters -- that is, characters with a
>>> bit of history behind them before the start of the game -- are 75 + 75.
>>> The "fresh out of the accademy" rookie is probably going to be a good 50
>>> points less than that.
>
>> The Gospel According To Rat!
>
>The Gospel According to the BBB and several other official Hero sources.
>Even 100 points is a lot for a "wet behind the ears" character when he is
>not paying for powers and such.
Again, these characters weren't first-timers in space, they were veterans
who'd decided to go into business for themselves. Also, Powers did have to
be considered, since low level psi abilities and/or cybernetic enhancements
were available. Not enough to have typical Mentalist or Supercyborg
characters, more on the level of the Justice Inc psi talents or a gadgeteer
whose "utility belt" is surgically implanted rather than worn around his
waist.
Damon
----------------------------------------------------------
Check the Star Hero campaign pages at
<http://www.txdirect.net/~griffin/starhero.htm>
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:51:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Reply-To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> > Indeed. The Swiss character makes clocks, the English character is an
> > archer, the French guy is modeled after Napoleon, the Monaco character
> > uses a gambling motif, the Italian is in the Mafia... it is pretty poor.
>
> And what's wrong with stereotypes for a short jaunt to Europe.
> People will be expecting something somewhat familiar.
Sorry Tim, there is familiar and then there is non-originality. EE is
stuffed with non-orignal characters. I mean every character from a
Scandinavian country has cold powers? The guy from Germany is called 'Das
Wall'? (which is incorrect German, I understand)
It's like picking up a book of North American villians and finding a
baseball player (or cowboy) coming from America, a lumberjack from Canada
and a bandito from Mexico. It is just poor design in my opinion.
> > Hoarfrost kills herself is she uses her No Range RKA. There is a Fractal
> > Energies EC (a what?). This same character (Mandelbrot) has 16 points for
> > a computer, except there are no statsgiven for this computer (and a 300
> > END Reserve to run it!) Oh, and he's Hunted by a RPG company! What sort
> > of diads are these?
>
> Hey! I _like_ Mandelbrot. Why are Fractal Energies any less
> believable then Mystical Flame? And Hunted by the T$R of a gaming world
> might actually be worth something, if you consider possible ties to real
> alternate dimensions. The computer is fine, though needs to be written
> up. The END reserve is trash.
Mystical Flame is a valid EC and lends itself to certain types of powers
(EB, RKA, Flight, FF, FW). But what are Fractal Energies? This is as bad
as 'Mutant Destructive Powers' - another winner from EE. The description
is 'fractals of light', wht not just give him 'light control' as an EC?
It is a case of the writer picking a name (or a base concept) and
hammering a character to fit.
Oh and accroding to EE, Iron Crown Enterprises (Mandelbrot's hunted) is
*just* as powerful as the CIA and UNTIL!!!
> > I agree, give EE a big pass. Buy GRUPS IST instead, you can probably get
> > better European character ideas out of that instead (I know that I did).
>
> Don't listen to him. I've tried to convert GURPS Supers
> characters, and found it n excercise in futility. The EE characters at
> least have stats resembling those of the Hero Rules.
Sorry, I have converted 80 characters from GURPS Wildcards. It can be
done and it isn't that hard. I even wrote up my guildlines and posted
them on my website (and, to this list). And the characters in GURPS IST
*don't* insult your intelligence.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:57:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> Of course, as I mention elsewhere, even this wouldn't be so bad if the
> author had gone past the stereotypes to create interesting characters.
> Only with Inquisition, Silhouette, and Zephyr are the cliched characters
> expanded into something with a twist or a little depth.
I will have to grudingly agree. Yes, one can present a 'stereotype' in an
interesting manner. Long Walker is a good example or a seterotype given a
cool twist.
> >> number of typos and rules gaffes. (What's Chromedome's STR? How does
> >> Increased STUN Mod apply to Energy Blast under the 4th Ed rules?) On the
> >
> >Also pay close attention to character descriptions and their write-ups.
> >You get an acne scarred man with (like) a 20 COM. There is a guy with a
> >6d6 EB only usable within his gas cloud. His gas cloud is always on...
> >Hoarfrost kills herself is she uses her No Range RKA.
>
> On Hoarfrost, are you meaning her No Range BODY/STUN Drain (which has
> the No Range Limitation despite the fact that Drain is already a No Range
> Power)?
Yeah. It is Always On and she has no Personal Immunity to the power. She
also has *no* LS: Cold, even though she generates a freezing fog all the
time. Sorry, I wasn't looking at my copy of EE at the time.
> >I dunnno. I can usually pick a few characters out of any supplement that
> >appeal to me. EE has given me ZERO in all the time I've had it.
>
> Well, I've mentioned that I actually like Doppleganger; and I can find
> some use for Argent Anarky, the Warsaw Pact team (I also like Carpathia),
> Despoiler, and Glacier.
I think Agent Anarky are pretty bad, if I was going to use them, they'd
require serious reworking. Of the rest, I do admit a liking for
Carpathia.
> (On the other hand, I find Thespian so repulsive that I frequently bring
> him back from the dead any time I can come up with another way to kill him.
> None of it's happened in play -- it's all in the background history -- but
> if it had I'm sure the players would nickname him Kenny (or maybe Paul
> Winfield).
I personally find Mandelbrot one of the worst of the bunch.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 21:42:20 -0400
From: Joshua Krage <jkrage@access.digex.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: META: The List
Mail-Followup-To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Tue, Apr 28, 1998 at 02:27:48PM -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> Miq Millman writes:
> > Frankly Rat, your "explanation" for problems is full of crap. [blah blah
> > blah]
> My "small subset of personal experience" includes the Gnus development
> cabal (about 250 people) and the entirety of Usenet.
...
> Just because you have not yet had a problem does not mean you never will.
...
> Your outright dismissal of my explanation is what is full of crap. I have
> been there; you have not.
Not that Rat needs anyone to defend him but... he's right, again.
<RANT TYPE=general>
And I'll add that if you haven't read the relevant email RFCs and
dealt with email and mailing list issues on a regular basis, then
you're attempting to use your "ES: Computer Applications, 8-" in
a "PS: Email Administration, 14-" situation, and missing a few
KSs as well.
Proper email handling is tricky. It looks easy because a lot of
good people of spent large numbers of hours configuring and
tweaking it. List administration, especially, can be
troublesome. Who do you think handles all the bounces from
invalid user accounts?
One of the principles of good software design is:
"If its already there, don't rebuild it." A mechanism already
exists to identify the source of the list messages. This can
be used to sort your mailbox; good clients (including Eudora)
can do it.
Not everyone uses Eudora. Not everyone uses Mutt (which I'm doing
now). Not everyone uses the same email delivery software (MTA).
The only way these work together is by following the accepted
standards. And these standards were developed and tested in
a test of fire; the real world. There is a reason for them, and
a reason for them to be followed.
Unfortunately, too many people think they have a better answer and
don't listen to 'those who have gone before'. It used to be that
we could laugh at them; unfortunately, now their mucking around
affects our systems and causes us tons of work. And, if things go
sufficiently in the wrong direction, that will affect you too
when you can't access your email. And then how would you satisfy
that "DEPENDECY: Champions List"?
So listen to the voices of experience. Or at least attempt to
understand why they're saying such things. It usually isn't
that hard.
</RANT>
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
jkrage@access.digex.net UNIX and Networks and Computer Security, oh my!
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:38:03 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Grond?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 22
Can somebody please tell who or what Grond is? Some stats could be
nice. I get the impression he is a walking major disaster looking for a party.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 21:41:48 -0500
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: META: The List
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> or broken mail clients and lazy (l)users. And to encourage me off the list.
Jesus Rat. How many times are you going to threaten us with this?
I think you over-estimate your own importance.
Todd
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 23:54:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Another EE Rant...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Yeah, yeah, it's the beating a dead horse dept., but I *had* to point this
one out.
I'm looking through my copy of EE and wanted to bring up a few of the even
more interesting gaffes that make this book so bad:
1 - Glacier spends 45 points for 6 levels of Growth/Density Increase
Always On, while Carpathia spends 40 for the *exact* same powers.
2 - Mammoth spends 60 points for his 85 STR. His Growth *should* make up
for it, except he has only 1 Level of Growth, which costs him 20 points.
He is 11' tall, so he should have 2 Levels, which still cost only 13
points.
3 - speaking of Mammoth, he spends 48 points for a 40 point Gadget Pool.
If you use the limitations "Only in Lab" (-1) and "Minimum of IIF" (-1/4)
you get 51 points for the pool.
4 - Why does *every* character in the book speak English? Everyone. Even
the demon. The only ones that don't are the ones that don't speak to
begin with. Even Carpathia, with an INT of 5 has 2 points of English.
5 - Damage Classes are not included in the Martial Arts packages. So one
might want to look twice at Shrike, who gets a whopping +6DC with her
martial arts. This gives her a 1 1/2d6 HKA, 2d6+1 with STR. Even Steve
Long has never dumped this many DCs into character (I think...)
6 - here's my favorite. Banshee is listed as a Scottish villain, except
the Bashee (or Ban Shide) comes from *Ireland*... But! Look at the map
in the character write-up... that's Ireland high-lighted... Oh, and look
at the art and read the description... why *does* that character have a 6
COM? It should be 0!
7 - Oh... Bob, I take it you noticed that Thespian's rapier is bought as
an *RKA*? And why does this guy have a 23 STR? The 30 PRE I can buy, but
a 20 COM?
8 - Chromedome doesn't have a STR stat. Reverse engineering his stats
gives him a STR of 60. And unlike Mammoth, this time someone got the math
right for his Density Increase.
9 - Neon is just a crawling mass of mistakes. He is acne scarred, with
greasy hair and pale skin... yet this is good enough to net a 20 COM. His
Darkness is defined as 'neon' gas, except I've been told that neon is a
colorless gas... He also has a 6d6 EB that only works in his gas cloud...
except that his gas cloud is Always On... He takes 2x STUN from EB...
okay, so he takes double damage from a game mechanic, not a SFX. He is
hunted by 70 points of enemies (hmm... psuhing that 50 point cap just a
bit?) and we learn that Mystery's Mob is more powerful than the London
Watch. He is hunted by each on an 8-, but only gets 15 for the Watch to
20 for the Mob.
Need I go on?
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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From: "Sean Pavlish" <pavlish@erols.com>
To: "Hero Mailing List" <hero-l@emerald.omg.org>
Subject: Anyone out there?
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 00:46:00 -0400
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Hey, whats up? I went from getting close to a hundred emails a day to none from
the list. Is there a problem? Did I get axed from it somehow?
:(
Sean
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 21:51:15 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> >believable then Mystical Flame? And Hunted by the T$R of a gaming world
> >might actually be worth something, if you consider possible ties to real
> >alternate dimensions. The computer is fine, though needs to be written
> >up. The END reserve is trash.
>
> Mandelbrot isn't Hunted by TSR, he's hunted by ICE; and it's worth 20
> points for an 8-, which indicates More Powerful with NCI.
> Reading the text of the character will clear up what is meant by
> "Fractal Energies"; its simple listing on the character sheet is ambiguous.
>
Wasn't there a group of assassins in either DC or Hudson city called the
International Consortium of Evil or something like that? They had Timothy G Girsh
or what ever and the Westerner assassin from the orient and the killer art
critic.... Could they be the ICE that was hunting Mandelbrot?
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 00:10:54 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: mlnunn@blue.net
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org"@bnllc2.bl"
From: Michael Nunn <mlnunn@scrtc.blue.net>
Subject: Re: META: The List
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:41 PM 4/28/98 -0500, Todd Hanson wrote:
>Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>> or broken mail clients and lazy (l)users. And to encourage me off the list.
>
>Jesus Rat. How many times are you going to threaten us with this?
>
>I think you over-estimate your own importance.
Maybe we will all luck out and this time it's not a threat.
Rising Force Publications
Herozine, The Superhero RPG Fanzine...vist our recently updated web site...
http://members.aol.com/hzineweb/index.htm
"You have never lived until you have almost died.
And for those who fight for it,
life has a flavor the protected never know"
- anonymous
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
To: "Sean Pavlish" <pavlish@erols.com>
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 01:18:24 -0400
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Anyone out there?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Wed, 29 Apr 1998 00:46:00 -0400, Sean Pavlish wrote:
>Hey, whats up? I went from getting close to a hundred emails a day to none from
>the list. Is there a problem? Did I get axed from it somehow?
>
>:(
>
>Sean
Well, let's see. There are two problems. One (which I noticed first) is that you're still
sending to the old address. The list has moved to a new mail server @sysabend.org
(use either hero-l@sysabend.org or champ-l@sysabend.org). We're temporarily
forwarding mail to the old address to the list, but that will probably stop once the admin
of the old mail server realizes that the account still exists.
But that's not why you've not been receiving mail.
I believe that Erol has a problem right now. I've been getting bounce-backs from every
list member who uses Erols as their ISP (and liet me tell you, it's really choked my mail
up).
(I'll resend this message to you it in a couple of days if it bounces back to me).
John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
=================================================
Gotta question about the list? Just ask. Or, you can go look
over at www.sysabend.org/champions. Yeah, yeah, I know,
it's ugly. I'll make the site prettier when I have time.
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 03:08:37 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bryce Berggren <ghost@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 07:57 PM 4/28/98 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
>> Of course, as I mention elsewhere, even this wouldn't be so bad if the
>> author had gone past the stereotypes to create interesting characters.
>> Only with Inquisition, Silhouette, and Zephyr are the cliched characters
>> expanded into something with a twist or a little depth.
>
>I will have to grudingly agree. Yes, one can present a 'stereotype' in an
>interesting manner. Long Walker is a good example or a seterotype given a
>cool twist.
Long Walker? Ehhh ... I think Long Walker tries /too/ hard to "twist" a given
stereotype, and ends up a jumbled mess.
>> (On the other hand, I find Thespian so repulsive that I frequently bring
>> him back from the dead any time I can come up with another way to kill him.
>> None of it's happened in play -- it's all in the background history -- but
>> if it had I'm sure the players would nickname him Kenny (or maybe Paul
>> Winfield).
>
>I personally find Mandelbrot one of the worst of the bunch.
Mandelbrot's bad, admitted ... but he's not even the worst on his own team.
Beyond Shrike, the first character in comicbook history to take contract
bridge as her superpowered origin, there's Godfather. Why would a neo-pagan
anarchist group with a feminist bent working to fight perceived corruption
in Europe see any value associating with the head of a traditionally
Roman Catholic, patriarchal organized crime group? This stretches "strange
bedfellows" /way/ too far for my tastes.
H. G.
He beats his fists against the posts
and still insists he sees the ghosts
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 03:08:43 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bryce Berggren <ghost@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Another EE Rant...
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 11:54 PM 4/28/98 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>Yeah, yeah, it's the beating a dead horse dept., but I *had* to point this
>one out.
"Plan Nine" is the one dead horse I never get tired of beating. :)
>I'm looking through my copy of EE and wanted to bring up a few of the even
>more interesting gaffes that make this book so bad:
>3 - speaking of Mammoth, he spends 48 points for a 40 point Gadget Pool.
>If you use the limitations "Only in Lab" (-1) and "Minimum of IIF" (-1/4)
>you get 51 points for the pool.
>
>4 - Why does *every* character in the book speak English? Everyone. Even
>the demon. The only ones that don't are the ones that don't speak to
>begin with. Even Carpathia, with an INT of 5 has 2 points of English.
A case of realism taking a backseat to convenience. They probably thought
(yeah, I know, implying thinking in in P9fHG is dangerous talk) that it
helped GMs put the characters in their campaign, since the players wouldn't
have to pull out their Berlitz phrase books just to say "freeze" ...
>6 - here's my favorite. Banshee is listed as a Scottish villain, except
>the Bashee (or Ban Shide) comes from *Ireland*... But! Look at the map
>in the character write-up... that's Ireland high-lighted... Oh, and look
>at the art and read the description... why *does* that character have a 6
>COM? It should be 0!
My favorite's still the protective force-field as part of Despoiler's
"mutant destructive powers" elemental control.
>7 - Oh... Bob, I take it you noticed that Thespian's rapier is bought as
>an *RKA*? And why does this guy have a 23 STR? The 30 PRE I can buy, but
>a 20 COM?
Actually, this one may not be Bill Tracy's fault. (Jeez, I can't believe
I'm /defending/ this stuff.) I have a letter from Aaron Allston to another
player running around this house somewhere, wherein he points out some
of the drastic misunderstandings between the artist who did the Blood
and his original notes. I have a feeling something similar happened here
(and under Silver Hyena).
>9 - Neon is just a crawling mass of mistakes. He is acne scarred, with
>greasy hair and pale skin... yet this is good enough to net a 20 COM. His
>Darkness is defined as 'neon' gas, except I've been told that neon is a
>colorless gas... He also has a 6d6 EB that only works in his gas cloud...
>except that his gas cloud is Always On... He takes 2x STUN from EB...
>okay, so he takes double damage from a game mechanic, not a SFX. He is
>hunted by 70 points of enemies (hmm... psuhing that 50 point cap just a
>bit?) and we learn that Mystery's Mob is more powerful than the London
>Watch. He is hunted by each on an 8-, but only gets 15 for the Watch to
>20 for the Mob.
My brother pointed out to me, the gas cloud bit is still a limitation,
since it effectively limits the range of the EB. As for the rest of it ...
what's the quote? "Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, STUPID!"
H. G.
He beats his fists against the posts
and still insists he sees the ghosts
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 04:00:36 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Dualism/One Bad Apple
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Okay, I have a question for y'all, but there's a bit of exposition to
go through first. Fasten your seat belt, it's going to be a bimpy
ride...
I'm in a game currently which consists of three couples, two single
guys, and the GM's mom. OOps, and another guy, who's wife doesn't play.
The GM, in fact, is two GMs; another couple. So if everybody is able to
make it for a particular game, we have 11 players and 2 GMs and one in
the peanut gallery. Now that's a crowded game, no matter how you look
at it, but generally about six players show up for a given game. That
was the theory; have enough players to run a "full" game when missing a
few players and occasionally have a game where everyone makes it.
But that's not my question.
In the last couple of months, we have maintained a fairly stable
group of the same 5 players; my wife and myself, Peter and Wendy (not
their real names) and Erik. And since all the players in the group are
friends, we see them outside of gaming fairly regularly, and
occasionally, the Game comes up in conversation. Okay, here it comes...
Wendy continually has complaints that there is too much chaos in the
games for her to be able to follow the action and know what is going
on. She complains that too many players try to hold the GMs'
attention(s) at once and that she can't hear what is going on when
characters are doing different things out of combat.
I maintain that there is inherently a certain level of chaos when
there are 6+ people all in the same room interacting in ANY fashion, and
that in many instances, other characters are doing things that her
character wouldn't be privvy to anyway.
Okay, I know that I have only given sketchy information, but does
anyone have any information/comments/suggestions on a player who feels
"lost in the shuffle" in a game, or on RPG chaos in general?
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 07:04:23 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Classic Enemies
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Definitely a top-notch collection of useful characters, far superior (IMO)
to any of the villain books that followed.
My Favorites:
- Terror Inc - I used them almost exactly as written, which is
unusual for me;
- Black Paladin - had a recurring role as the chief enforcer for
one of the major villains in my campaign, later transferring his loyalty to
the Black Enchantress;
- Rainbow Archer - was used as a villain only once, then recruited
from prison to join an NPC hero group. I agree that the stats were WAY out
of line, though, and I rewrote her with more human stats and LOTS of
levels;
- Utility - was killed by Viper to silence him after they hired him
to plant bugs in the heroes base (bugs which remained there for years!). He
was then replaced by a private detective who pretended to be a villain in
order to track down the killer.
Least Favorites:
-Dr. Destroyer - even the low-end version is WAY too powerful for
the type of game I like to run;
- Eurostar - As a group, much too powerful, although several of the
members were given new names and costumes and used as individual opponents;
- Panda and Racoon - just too silly;
Characters who were used with new names and costumes (to prevent the
players from knowing just what they were dealing with) include: Sunburst,
Radium, Esper, Firewing (no less than 3 times!), Plague, Mentalla, White
Flame.
Herculan was used almost exactly as written, except that his base STR was
taken down to 30. His background was changed to match that of another alien
villain previously encountered, and the two of them became some of the most
despised vilains in my campaign.
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 07:04:29 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Big teams or powerful villains?
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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> I've got six players in my current group, more than I usually have. I'm
> wondering if it might not be wiser to oppose them with smaller numbers of
> more powerful villains. My problem is that a sufficiently powerful
villain
> can probably 'take out' one hero per phase, unless the heroes are very
> lucky or very well coordinated.
Hmm, what's your definition of "sufficiently powerful?" Seems to me that a
villain would have to be Dr. Destroyer-class (or at the very least
Eurostar-class) to take out a hero in one phase, but that might be a
reflection of individual styles.
I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. You don't make it clear if
the problem is that the PC's are getting clobbered too often, or if they're
having too easy a time.
> (All my previous villains were roughly
> on-par with the heroes in terms of power)
Experience shows that, in this situation, the players will usually prevail
amazingly quickly. The GM simply has too much to keep track of to play the
villains' tactics to their full advantage, while each player only has to
keep track of his/her own character. A significant power advantage over the
players is usually necessary to even the score. Of course, your milage may
vary, but I've heard this from several different GM's as well as in
published material.
Want an example? Try this: collect copies of the player's characters and
have them fight carbon-copies of themselves (clones, maybe). The players
are very likely to win quickly, despite opponents who are by definition on
an equal power level. If you add about 20 Active points to the clones'
attacks, and maybe 10 Active points to their defenses, and the fight should
be much more interesting, though even then the PC's are likely to prevail.
A lot of things also depend on how good you are at gauging the characters'
abilities predicting how well they will do against your villains. I always
tend to underestimate the abilities of my players, so when I think I'm
creating a very powerful villain, they usually end up cleaning his clock.
On the other hand, my current GM (who also played in my game when it was
more active) always tends to OVER estimate the players' capabilities, and
more than once there have been near fatalities among the PC's by villains
who were supposed to go down easy.
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 07:18:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, Chad Riley wrote:
> > Mandelbrot isn't Hunted by TSR, he's hunted by ICE; and it's worth 20
> > points for an 8-, which indicates More Powerful with NCI.
> > Reading the text of the character will clear up what is meant by
> > "Fractal Energies"; its simple listing on the character sheet is ambiguous.
> >
>
> Wasn't there a group of assassins in either DC or Hudson city called the
> International Consortium of Evil or something like that? They had Timothy G Girsh
> or what ever and the Westerner assassin from the orient and the killer art
> critic.... Could they be the ICE that was hunting Mandelbrot?
Nope. It is written: Iron Crown Enterprises. Also, Mandlebrot gets 15
points of Psyc Lim for "Role Playing Gamer"(?)...
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Subject: Re: META: The List
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:30:30 -0400
x-sender: dfair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <dfair@sdslink.com>
To: "Hero Games" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>> or broken mail clients and lazy (l)users. And to encourage me off the list.
>
>
>Jesus Rat. How many times are you going to threaten us with this?
>
>I think you over-estimate your own importance.
>
Actually, I personnaly feel that Rat leaving the list would be a big
loss. He has a keen understanding of the rules, and obviously many years
of experience in implementing them. His posts are not always the most
polite, and he can be stubborn, true, but all of us have our faults. By
no means do I agree with everyone of his posts (or every one of anyone
else's for that matter), but those I disagree with I have learned to let
slide right past me.
When I rejoined this list (I have been off and on about 6-8 times now,
usually due to heavy workloads or moving) I suggested the same subject
line idea that is now being proposed by another party. After being
informed by Rat, and others, about the RIGHT (because, think what you
want, he is right in this respect; I looked it up in the RFC's) way to do
things, I changed my mail client and found a way to conform to the proper
hadling of Internet email. It was not that hard, and I prefer my new mail
client to the old one.
Rat, Bob Greenwade, Tim Gilberg, Dave Mattingly, Lizard, Michael
Surbrook, John Desmaris and several others are the core contributors of
substance to this list and the loss of any one of them would make it less
useful to me.
PS. Kudos to Dave Stallard for starting more new threads/discusssions
than anyone, Thanks!
David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 07:56:14 -0500
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris)
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net
Organization: Redbow Antiques
To: cptspith@teleport.com
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Dualism/One Bad Apple
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Captain Spith wrote:
> Okay, I have a question for y'all, but there's a bit of exposition to
> go through first. Fasten your seat belt, it's going to be a bimpy
> ride...
> I'm in a game currently which consists of three couples, two single
> guys, and the GM's mom. OOps, and another guy, who's wife doesn't play.
> The GM, in fact, is two GMs; another couple. So if everybody is able to
> make it for a particular game, we have 11 players and 2 GMs and one in
> the peanut gallery. Now that's a crowded game, no matter how you look
> at it, but generally about six players show up for a given game. That
> was the theory; have enough players to run a "full" game when missing a
> few players and occasionally have a game where everyone makes it.
> But that's not my question.
> In the last couple of months, we have maintained a fairly stable
> group of the same 5 players; my wife and myself, Peter and Wendy (not
> their real names) and Erik. And since all the players in the group are
> friends, we see them outside of gaming fairly regularly, and
> occasionally, the Game comes up in conversation. Okay, here it comes...
> Wendy continually has complaints that there is too much chaos in the
> games for her to be able to follow the action and know what is going
> on. She complains that too many players try to hold the GMs'
> attention(s) at once and that she can't hear what is going on when
> characters are doing different things out of combat.
> (SNIP)
There are several ways to handle this. I feel that this is a players
complaint to the GM. The GM therefore has two choices a) do something about
it such as slowing things down or b) ignore it which will probably loose you
a player. I don't know "Wendy" but the GM (if they want to keep her)
should slow things down and go through a step by step process. The GM should
start at one side of the table and go around it in clockwise fashion (this
is the easiest) or in order of speed, initiative, or whatever the game calls
for.
The GM should also make sure other players are atleast tolerably quite
while this is going on. When I have GM'd for large groups one of the things
I have found the hardest is to keep track of players conversations between
themselves as I was dealing with another player, this might be "Wendy's"
problem.
Basically the GM needs to slow the combat down and keep the side
conversations to a minimum. If this isn't possible you might have to say
goodbye to Wendy which I really!!! hate to say since I have only 3 players
right now.
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Yet more supplement reviews
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:22:55 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Cool. We all get 15 more points to spend. ;-)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Surbrook [SMTP:susano@access.digex.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 7:19 AM
> To: Goode, Jason
> Cc: Champions Mailing List
> Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
>
>
> Nope. It is written: Iron Crown Enterprises. Also, Mandlebrot gets 15
> points of Psyc Lim for "Role Playing Gamer"(?)...
>
> **************************************************************************
> *
> * "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion
> *
> * Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net
> *
> * Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:
> *
> * http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html
> *
> * Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT
> *
> * Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark
> *
> **************************************************************************
> *
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:41:29 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Nope. It is written: Iron Crown Enterprises. Also, Mandlebrot gets 15
> points of Psyc Lim for "Role Playing Gamer"(?)...
Biggest mistake on the sheet. That's a 20 pointer, easy.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: Dualism/One Bad Apple
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:06:28 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I was recently playing in a group where the GM decided that combat is
effectively all simultaneous in real life, so it should be simultaneous in
the game. He decided that the best way to do this was to do away with
everyone taking turns and any other mechanism that prevented everything from
happening all at once. The net result was that whoever shouted the loudest
got to act, while the rest of us just got to react to his NPCs attacking us.
After several discussions, he continued refused to accept that since he can
only fully pay attention to one person at a time, combat needs to be ordered
so that everyone gets an equal time slice. The game was nothing but chaos,
and I, like Wendy just wasn't having any fun, so I left. 3 of the 5
remaining players left, too. Turns out that they were Wendy's too.
Sounds like your GM(s) needs to slow down and take more time, so Wendy feels
like she's more a part of the game. It may also help if sidebar
in-character conversations are kept to a minimum. Even if Wendy's char
doesn't know what's going on, there's no reason for Wendy not to, as long as
she plays the character without that knowledge.
Jason Goode
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Captain Spith [SMTP:cptspith@teleport.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 7:01 AM
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Dualism/One Bad Apple
>
> Okay, I know that I have only given sketchy information, but does
> anyone have any information/comments/suggestions on a player who feels
> "lost in the shuffle" in a game, or on RPG chaos in general?
>
> --
> -Capt. Spith
> Savior of Humanity
> Secular Messiah
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Noise at the Game (was Re: Dualism/One Bad Apple)
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:36:28 EDT
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<snip>
> Wendy continually has complaints that there is too much chaos in the
>games for her to be able to follow the action and know what is going
>on. She complains that too many players try to hold the GMs'
>attention(s) at once and that she can't hear what is going on when
>characters are doing different things out of combat.
I've gamed (at different times) with three hearing-impaired players, one
severely impaired. The adjustments we had to make for them should work
just as well for this situation. Basic summary: keep the noise level
down and be polite.
> I maintain that there is inherently a certain level of chaos when
>there are 6+ people all in the same room interacting in ANY fashion, and
>that in many instances, other characters are doing things that her
>character wouldn't be privvy to anyway.
With that many people, you definitely need house guidelines re: noise.
There will always be some chaos with a large group, true. But, if the
other characters are doing something her character wouldn't know about,
what's wrong with moving away from the table and/or lowering voices?
IMHO, Wendy has the right to complain if the noise is interfering with
her enjoyment of the game, just like an asthmatic gamer I know has the
right to complain if someone at the gaming table lights a cigarette. If
Wendy can't tell what's going on, how is her character supposed to
respond to what's going on?
You might want to enforce a "take turns" rule when it comes to out of
combat actions -- something as simple as going around the table and
having each person state actions one at a time would help.
Leah
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:45:43 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:51 PM 4/28/1998 -0700, Chad Riley wrote:
>> >believable then Mystical Flame? And Hunted by the T$R of a gaming world
>> >might actually be worth something, if you consider possible ties to real
>> >alternate dimensions. The computer is fine, though needs to be written
>> >up. The END reserve is trash.
>>
>> Mandelbrot isn't Hunted by TSR, he's hunted by ICE; and it's worth 20
>> points for an 8-, which indicates More Powerful with NCI.heet is ambiguous.
>
>Wasn't there a group of assassins in either DC or Hudson city called the
>International Consortium of Evil or something like that? They had Timothy
G Girsh
>or what ever and the Westerner assassin from the orient and the killer art
>critic.... Could they be the ICE that was hunting Mandelbrot?
It could be changed to that, but the character sheet actually says,
"Hunted by Iron Crown Enterprises" (for 20 points).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:46:18 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:50 PM 4/29/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
>Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
>
>> Nope. It is written: Iron Crown Enterprises. Also, Mandlebrot gets 15
>> points of Psyc Lim for "Role Playing Gamer"(?)...
>
> Biggest mistake on the sheet. That's a 20 pointer, easy.
LOL!
(And I'm not generally one to take the trouble to post something with
just that as my response....)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:51:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Core Conrtibutors (was: Re: META: The List)
To: David Fair <dfair@sdslink.com&> Hero Games <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
---David Fair wrote:
> Rat, Bob Greenwade, Tim Gilberg, Dave Mattingly, Lizard, Michael
> Surbrook, John Desmaris and several others are the core contributors
of
> substance to this list and the loss of any one of them would make it
less
> useful to me.
An odd assessment. With the exception of the slight increase due to
taking over administrating the list, I've always thought of myself as
a borderline lurker.
==
John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
============================================
Got a question about the list? Just ask. Or, you can go
look over at www.sysabend.org/champions. I've been
slowly posting information about the list there.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:59:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Big teams or powerful villains?
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
---"Jeff M. Reid" wrote:
>
> > I've got six players in my current group, more than I usually
have. I'm
> > wondering if it might not be wiser to oppose them with smaller
numbers of
> > more powerful villains. My problem is that a sufficiently powerful
> villain
> > can probably 'take out' one hero per phase, unless the heroes are
very
> > lucky or very well coordinated.
>
> Hmm, what's your definition of "sufficiently powerful?" Seems to me
that a
> villain would have to be Dr. Destroyer-class (or at the very least
> Eurostar-class) to take out a hero in one phase, but that might be a
> reflection of individual styles.
>
> I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. You don't make it
clear if
> the problem is that the PC's are getting clobbered too often, or if
they're
> having too easy a time.
>
> > (All my previous villains were roughly
> > on-par with the heroes in terms of power)
>
> Experience shows that, in this situation, the players will usually
prevail
> amazingly quickly. The GM simply has too much to keep track of to
play the
> villains' tactics to their full advantage, while each player only
has to
> keep track of his/her own character. A significant power advantage
over the
> players is usually necessary to even the score. Of course, your
milage may
> vary, but I've heard this from several different GM's as well as in
> published material.
On the "Your Mileage May Vary" front, don't forget to consider the
tactical skills of the GM. Played for several years with a GM who had
retired from the Army having been extensively trained in small scale
tactics. He would routinely whomp up on us with a villains who were
actually less powerful than the heroes (no, he wasn't "fudging" dice
rolls, except to occasionally help the PCs, he just really had a
strong grasp of squad-level tactics). Made for the quite the
challenging games.
> Want an example? Try this: collect copies of the player's characters
and
> have them fight carbon-copies of themselves (clones, maybe). The
players
> are very likely to win quickly, despite opponents who are by
definition on
> an equal power level. If you add about 20 Active points to the clones'
> attacks, and maybe 10 Active points to their defenses, and the fight
should
> be much more interesting, though even then the PC's are likely to
prevail.
>
> A lot of things also depend on how good you are at gauging the
characters'
> abilities predicting how well they will do against your villains. I
always
> tend to underestimate the abilities of my players, so when I think I'm
> creating a very powerful villain, they usually end up cleaning his
clock.
> On the other hand, my current GM (who also played in my game when it
was
> more active) always tends to OVER estimate the players'
capabilities, and
> more than once there have been near fatalities among the PC's by
villains
> who were supposed to go down easy.
>
> Jeff Reid
> Morfhis@compuserve.com
> http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
-=>John D
_________________________________________________________
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:24:57 -0500 (CDT)
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Big teams or powerful villains?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> On the "Your Mileage May Vary" front, don't forget to consider the
> tactical skills of the GM. Played for several years with a GM who had
> retired from the Army having been extensively trained in small scale
> tactics. He would routinely whomp up on us with a villains who were
> actually less powerful than the heroes (no, he wasn't "fudging" dice
> rolls, except to occasionally help the PCs, he just really had a
> strong grasp of squad-level tactics). Made for the quite the
> challenging games.
>
Any specifics on what he did ? I'm always on the lookout for teamwork tactics
other than "everybody dogpile on target X".
Curt Hicks
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Big teams or powerful villains?
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:27:35 -0700
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
John Desmarais says:
>On the "Your Mileage May Vary" front, don't forget to consider the
>tactical skills of the GM. Played for several years with a GM who
>had retired from the Army having been extensively trained in small
>scale tactics. He would routinely whomp up on us with a villains
>who were actually less powerful than the heroes (no, he wasn't
>"fudging" dice rolls, except to occasionally help the PCs, he just
>really had a strong grasp of squad-level tactics). Made for the
>quite the challenging games.
Would you care to share some of his tactics with us?
Dave Mattingly
http://www.haymaker.org
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:40:16 -0700
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com>
Subject: Re: Big teams or powerful villains?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 07:04 AM 4/29/98 -0400, Jeff M. Reid wrote:
>> I've got six players in my current group, more than I usually have. I'm
>> wondering if it might not be wiser to oppose them with smaller numbers of
>> more powerful villains. My problem is that a sufficiently powerful
>villain
>> can probably 'take out' one hero per phase, unless the heroes are very
>> lucky or very well coordinated.
>
>Hmm, what's your definition of "sufficiently powerful?" Seems to me that a
>villain would have to be Dr. Destroyer-class (or at the very least
>Eurostar-class) to take out a hero in one phase, but that might be a
>reflection of individual styles.
>
The heroes are low power -- 200 points, roughly -- so you don't need to be
that godlike to take them out.
>I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. You don't make it clear if
>the problem is that the PC's are getting clobbered too often, or if they're
>having too easy a time.
>
The problem is I'm tired of designing 6 villains at a pop. :) Especially
with my players, who want to know origins, backgrounds, why these guys are
a team, etc...
And then, when I *do* come up with a detailed background and personality,
they make fun of his name...you know who you are!
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:13:30 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Big teams or powerful villains?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Curt Hicks
> John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On the "Your Mileage May Vary" front, don't forget to consider the
> > tactical skills of the GM. Played for several years with a GM who had
> > retired from the Army having been extensively trained in small scale
> > tactics. He would routinely whomp up on us with a villains who were
> > actually less powerful than the heroes (no, he wasn't "fudging" dice
> > rolls, except to occasionally help the PCs, he just really had a
> > strong grasp of squad-level tactics). Made for the quite the
> > challenging games.
>Any specifics on what he did ? I'm always on the lookout for teamwork
tactics
>other than "everybody dogpile on target X".
I'm also interested in hearing about team tactics, both on the hero and the
villain side. Too often, my combats end up being "you start on this side,
they start on that side", and then they just kinda converge and duke it out
until only one side is standing.
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:58:17 -0500 (CDT)
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Big teams or powerful villains?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> wrote:
>
> The problem is I'm tired of designing 6 villains at a pop. :) Especially
> with my players, who want to know origins, backgrounds, why these guys are
> a team, etc...
>
Don't tell them. Practice saying "your character doesn't know that". (grin)
All you really have to come up with is what's publically known.
I was thinking about this when David Stallard started the "how do the villains
escape" thread. Rather than having to come up with 6 villains every episode,
that are then defeated and go to jail, if you have a good set of recurring
villains / archenemy types that the PC's can constantly battle, all you need
is an explanation for why they're NOT out of the picture, even though they've
been defeated. Either have one team member be solely a mass escape expert,
or have them working for a mastermind with a triggered long-distance teleporter.
You could even make up a scenario involving the villain team recognizing that
they need to acquire some reliable means of escape.
Curt Hicks
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:07:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Another EE Rant...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> My favorite's still the protective force-field as part of Despoiler's
> "mutant destructive powers" elemental control.
Why not, consider the "field that destroys all incoming" attacks
argument from about a year back.
> My brother pointed out to me, the gas cloud bit is still a limitation,
> since it effectively limits the range of the EB. As for the rest of it ...
I was actually going to mention that. It does actually limit the
power, upon further reflection.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:12:42 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Hero Games <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: META: The List
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> informed by Rat, and others, about the RIGHT (because, think what you
> want, he is right in this respect; I looked it up in the RFC's) way to do
> things, I changed my mail client and found a way to conform to the proper
> hadling of Internet email. It was not that hard, and I prefer my new mail
> client to the old one.
The same arguements convinced me. I've done limited coding, with
limited experiments on integrating with the code of others. With as many
"others" as there are working on mailing systems, doing things according
to specs gained from real-world experience only makes sense.
> Rat, Bob Greenwade, Tim Gilberg, Dave Mattingly, Lizard, Michael
> Surbrook, John Desmaris and several others are the core contributors of
Well thank you very much. It's nice to be considered one of the
list's resident Gurus. Though I'd add Vox to that list. (And Gazza, if
he were to come back. That one was a great contributer.)
And I'll agree, as much as Rat can annoy me, (And believe me, he
can annoy me), I find his presence to be quite an asset to the list.
He's often the conservative voice of reason when in comes to power and
character construction. He brings up valid points, even if I don't agree
with his strict "BBB according to Rat" point of view.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:18:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Hero Games <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: The Usual Suspects
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> >planning on using his writeup as a basis for Kaiser Sosek. Anyone want to
> >work on that one?
>
> Kaiser Soze: needs at least two secret ID's (you don't think that lefty
> there was the only one, do you?) and hoards of tactics and streetwise
You sure on the spelling? I was almost positive it was Sosek.
I also think multiple secret IDs mixed with multiple Deep Cover
Perks. Add KSs about each and every little detail of the criminal world
at ungodly levels.
> skills. Should have lots of PRE (23+) and a helluva REP. Average to Good
Easily 23+, if not more.
> handgun skills, acting, High Society (maybe), Persuasion, oratory,
Average to good handgun? I'd say much better. He was known for
his physical prowess as well as his connections.
> shadowing, stealth, and an INT in the 18-22 range. Oh yeah, EGO has to
> be, say 23, though I may be able to be talked lower on that one. STR of
> 12, DEX 11, CON 16 (didn't he get shot in that altercation back in
> <foreign country of origin>, if not then maybe lower), COM 10, and 2 dice
> of Luck.
Yup. Though it would be very easy to underestimate this
character. If you're not sure, take the higher number. And that acting
roll would be at about a 21-.
> God, I loved that movie!
Me too. Just incredible. Though I had it figured out (at least a
hunch) by the time they first met the Lawyer.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: Yet more supplement reviews
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:18:48 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Nah, Long Walker is cool.
Jason Goode
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bryce Berggren [SMTP:ghost@theramp.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 4:09 AM
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
>
> >
> >I will have to grudingly agree. Yes, one can present a 'stereotype' in
> an
> >interesting manner. Long Walker is a good example or a seterotype given
> a
> >cool twist.
>
> Long Walker? Ehhh ... I think Long Walker tries /too/ hard to "twist" a
> given
> stereotype, and ends up a jumbled mess.
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:19:46 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Houston, we have a problem
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> > The Gospel According To Rat!
>
> The Gospel According to the BBB and several other official Hero sources.
> Even 100 points is a lot for a "wet behind the ears" character when he is
> not paying for powers and such.
That depends on the level of skill detail desired. However, you
are making your common and mistaken assumption that a player starting a
new character is necessarily starting a "novice" character. They really
could be quite experienced.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:35:30 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Classic Enemies
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
David B Stallard wrote:
>
> We've already gone through a "favorite characters" thread, but I thought
> I'd try getting a little more specific and ask what are some of your
> favorite and least favorite villains in Classic Enemies (I picked this book
> since I think of it as the "baseline" villain book that most GMs probably
> own)? Do you use any of the more unusual villains in the book in addition
> to the staples (the villain teams, Dr. Destroyer, etc)? My list below is
> all from memory since I don't have the book with me--I'm surprised I was
> able to remember so many!
<<Likes and dislikes snipped>>
I like to take the published characters (particularly the 'classic
enemies') and rewrite their particulars, change histories and shuffle
them around to make new villian teams.
My current favorite is Slug, Leech, Griffen and Wyvern. Slug has
implanted each of the others with a low-power 'mind-gem' to use them as
hired thugs to serve his agenda. Each of them has rudimentary telepathy
and EGO defense in exchange for mindless loyalty.
I also took Howler (from The Book, of course), Microwave (from the
Great Supervillian Contest), and Pantera (from Classic E) and teamed
them under Thunderbolt (From Enimies III; I don't remember if he made
Classic E) to make a simple out-for-personal-profit team. In secret
IDs, the girls are high-priced prostitutes who gather information from
their Johns for potential future blackmail, and they also moonlight as a
B-52s-style rock band.
I also took The Maine (From the BBB) and had him head a group of
villians of my own design to overthrow Atlantis.
And Black Paladin and Dr. Draconis (from Deathstroke, and who I also
made to be Dr. Death when out of his armour) are teamed with two demons
I created myself to be a good old-fashioned force for evil.
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:04:26 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Superhero genre book request
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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This is really early, and maybe it's obvious, but I wanted to voice this
request while I'm thinking about it.
A lot of supplements (Classic Enemies, Challenges for Champions, Champions
Presents #2, etc) have generic articles giving advice on a certain aspect
of a superhero game (Villain Psychology, Creating an Adventure, Running a
Murder Mystery, etc). I'd like to see all of these compiled and plopped
into the genre book. Expanding on those topics and/or adding new ones
would be great as well, but I find these scattered articles to be some of
the most valuable GM advice I can find....
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Houston, we have a problem
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 29 Apr 1998 17:10:39 -0400
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Tim R Gilberg writes:
> That depends on the level of skill detail desired. However, you
> are making your common and mistaken assumption that a player starting a
> new character is necessarily starting a "novice" character. They really
> could be quite experienced.
I made no such assumption. I stated that I thought that 175 points is too
high for a game that has little or no need to spend points on powers and
gadgets. Then I presented what I thought were reasonable totals for
certain character levels. I made no assumption that the characters were
novices, only that a novice would be under 100 points.
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--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 18:09:00 -0400
From: Chris Hartjes <hartjes@ionsys.com>
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Superhero genre book request
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
David B Stallard wrote:
>
> This is really early, and maybe it's obvious, but I wanted to voice this
> request while I'm thinking about it.
>
> A lot of supplements (Classic Enemies, Challenges for Champions, Champions
> Presents #2, etc) have generic articles giving advice on a certain aspect
> of a superhero game (Villain Psychology, Creating an Adventure, Running a
> Murder Mystery, etc). I'd like to see all of these compiled and plopped
> into the genre book. Expanding on those topics and/or adding new ones
> would be great as well, but I find these scattered articles to be some of
> the most valuable GM advice I can find....
I would assume that any sort of Ultimate Supervillian submission would
be well advised to include material such as that. Sounds like a book
that coule be 128 pages easily.
Chris Hartjes
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:11:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David W Toomey)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>> I've an idea to create a character with Desolid to Mental only. This
>> would make the character immune to mental attacks, a sort of very
>> powerful mental defense.
> Well, I really have no problem with this. And I wouldn't even
>make Physical attacks be purchased with "affects real world". Note that
>this power will cost 30 points, 60 active. Furthermore, all mental
>attacks will cost triple what they did before. For that same 30 points,
>the character could buy 30 points of mental def, more than enough for
>most campaigns. This looks to me like a waste of points.
Actually, it costs 45 points/90 active or 60 points/120 active to
simulate
Mental Def:
40 Base Desolid
+20 Vs Mental
-----
60 pts 60 pts
*1.5 0 End (or) *2 0 End, Persistent
------ ----
90 Active 120 Active
/ 2 / 2 Only Mental (-1)
------ -----
45 Real pts 60 Real pts
I'd definitely go with Mental Def.....
David W Toomey
dwtoomey@juno.com
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:23:03 +0100
From: Mr Michael Pegg <m00bi800@mcmail.com>
Reply-To: m00bi800@mcmail.com
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I've an idea to create a charcter with Desolid to Mental only. This
would make the character immune to mental attacks, a sort of very
powerful mental defense. I know Desolid is not ment to be used in that
way, but why not. The only problem is according to the rules the
character should not then be able to make any attacks unless the power
is bought with Effect Solid, I can understand having to buy it for
possibly any mental powers the character might have but whats your
opinion on the physical powers.
Mike.
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:24:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
To: m00bi800@mcmail.com
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Mr Michael Pegg writes:
> I've an idea to create a charcter with Desolid to Mental only. This
> would make the character immune to mental attacks, a sort of very
> powerful mental defense. I know Desolid is not ment to be used in that
> way, but why not. The only problem is according to the rules the
> character should not then be able to make any attacks unless the power
> is bought with Effect Solid, I can understand having to buy it for
> possibly any mental powers the character might have but whats your
> opinion on the physical powers.
If you buy desolid vs mental, you have to buy 'affects solid' on all your
powers. Just buy lots of mental defense, that's the power meant to make you
immune to mental powers ;)
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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Date: 29 Apr 1998 18:39:20 -0400
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Michael Pegg writes:
> I've an idea to create a charcter with Desolid to Mental only. This
> would make the character immune to mental attacks, a sort of very
> powerful mental defense.
Yep, it also makes it impossible for the character to affect anyone or
anything in the "real" world without Affects Desolid on everything. In
other words, Desolid vs. a category of attacks is a hack.
Use Damage Reduction or a lot of Mental Defense instead.
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 18:39:00 -0500
To: cptspith@teleport.com, champ-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Dualism/One Bad Apple
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 04:00 AM 4/29/98 -0700, Captain Spith wrote:
>Okay, I have a question for y'all, but there's a bit of exposition to
>go through first. Fasten your seat belt, it's going to be a bimpy
>ride...
>
> I'm in a game currently which consists of three couples, two single
>guys, and the GM's mom. OOps, and another guy, who's wife doesn't play.
>The GM, in fact, is two GMs; another couple. So if everybody is able to
>make it for a particular game, we have 11 players and 2 GMs and one in
>the peanut gallery. Now that's a crowded game, no matter how you look
>at it, but generally about six players show up for a given game. That
>was the theory; have enough players to run a "full" game when missing a
>few players and occasionally have a game where everyone makes it.
>
> But that's not my question.
>
> In the last couple of months, we have maintained a fairly stable
>group of the same 5 players; my wife and myself, Peter and Wendy (not
>their real names) and Erik. And since all the players in the group are
>friends, we see them outside of gaming fairly regularly, and
>occasionally, the Game comes up in conversation. Okay, here it comes...
>
> Wendy continually has complaints that there is too much chaos in the
>games for her to be able to follow the action and know what is going
>on. She complains that too many players try to hold the GMs'
>attention(s) at once and that she can't hear what is going on when
>characters are doing different things out of combat.
> I maintain that there is inherently a certain level of chaos when
>there are 6+ people all in the same room interacting in ANY fashion, and
>that in many instances, other characters are doing things that her
>character wouldn't be privvy to anyway.
>
> Okay, I know that I have only given sketchy information, but does
>anyone have any information/comments/suggestions on a player who feels
>"lost in the shuffle" in a game, or on RPG chaos in general?
Gaming chaos cannot be eliminated, but it can be minimized. Others have
suggested some obvious methods for that already, no need for me to repeat
them. I will, however, suggest that you lean a little in Wendy's favor on
this, and do whatever is needed to get her at least some relief. Speaking
as one half of a gaming couple, I can tell you (actually, there should be
no need for me to tell you this, since you and your wife game together)
that the for the rare couple that roleplays together, gaming is Time
Together; if you lose Wendy, you either lose Peter as well, or (more
likely) it becomes Time Apart, which will require Peter to choose between
gaming at his current frequency of play and spending less time with Wendy,
or cutting back on gaming to hang out with his wife. Either way, Peter
probably won't have as much fun with it any more; if he does, and carries
on gaming as usual, Wendy may not enjoy that fact. All this is of course
speculation, since I don't know the personalities involved.
Single male gamers (including married ones whose wives do not play) are a
dime a dozen. Do what you need to do to keep the couples and the mom. This
would seem to make even more sense given that Wendy is one of the regulars
and I gather most of the shouters are the occasional players? The stags
can adjust or leave. Sounds cold, but it sounds like you could lose one or
more players if this isn't handled soon, so just decide who you most want
to keep. Like I said, I'd vote for Wendy-Peter 'cause in my experience,
couples and serious female gamers are rare.
Apologies to all the serious female gamers on the list, married or not, but
note the "in my experience" disclaimer -- this isn't a prejudice, it's what
my gaming groups have been like, Hero and otherwise, over a period of
almost 25 years. Often my wife is the only woman in the group, which we
think sucks. At the moment, there is one other woman in our Star Hero
game, shortly to join us in GURPS-Harn as well...and her name really *is*
Wendy.
Damon
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:23:39 -0400
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Dualism/One Bad Apple
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 04:00 AM 4/29/98 -0700, Captain Spith wrote:
>Okay, I have a question for y'all, but there's a bit of exposition to
>go through first. Fasten your seat belt, it's going to be a bimpy
>ride...
>
> I'm in a game currently which consists of three couples, two single
>guys, and the GM's mom. OOps, and another guy, who's wife doesn't play.
>The GM, in fact, is two GMs; another couple. So if everybody is able to
You're NOT the GM? All of that great advice everyone has been giving you,
I think, assumes that you are the GM. What everyone said is basically
true, if Wendy's problem with the game is not fixed, you will lose Wendy
and, eventually, Peter. You must get Wendy to explain this problem to the
GM(s?). You can also help out by cutting down on your own side conversing.
It sounds to me like the group has to have an about-the-game conversation.
>group of the same 5 players; my wife and myself, Peter and Wendy (not
>their real names) and Erik. And since all the players in the group are
So, Erik is his real name? :-)
> Wendy continually has complaints that there is too much chaos in the
>games for her to be able to follow the action and know what is going
>on. She complains that too many players try to hold the GMs'
>attention(s) at once and that she can't hear what is going on when
>characters are doing different things out of combat.
> I maintain that there is inherently a certain level of chaos when
>there are 6+ people all in the same room interacting in ANY fashion, and
>that in many instances, other characters are doing things that her
>character wouldn't be privvy to anyway.
You are correct. But, being correct does not solve the problem.
Good luck, and let us know what you and your group does to solve (or screw
up :-) the situation.
Joe
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:44:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Mr Michael Pegg writes:
> > I've an idea to create a charcter with Desolid to Mental only.
>
> If you buy desolid vs mental, you have to buy 'affects solid' on all your
> powers. Just buy lots of mental defense, that's the power meant to make you
> immune to mental powers ;)
A dissenting opinion...the way I've seen it run (and the way I would rule
it), someone who was Desolid to Mental Attacks (20 points) would still be
able to affect the physical world normally. (They would have to buy
Affects Solid on any Mental Powers they had, though.)
Why? The purpose of requiring an expensive 'Affects Solid' advantage on
physical powers is to make it very expensive to have a character who can
affect the physical world and not be affected in return - it's very
powerful to be able to do that.
Someone who is only Desolid vs. Mental can still be affected physically.
In fact, if you forced the character to pay for Affects Desolid on all
powers, it would be extremely unbalanced against that character - game
balance is more accurately preserved by allowing him to affect the
physical world that he, in turn, can be affected by.
As for buying 'lots of Mental Defense' - doesn't work the same. The
character wants to be /immune/ to mental attacks, not just 'really hard to
affect'. There's always the chance that a powerful psi would get a really
good roll, and pft, there goes your character concept.
Personally, I would use Desolid vs. Mental to represent someone with a
truly bizarre mind - completely alien thought patterns, for example, or
thinking on a completely different plane than the rest of the human race.
People with 'Affects Desolid' on their mental powers would know the
'trick' to being able to read/alter/whatever your mind.
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:10:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> I've an idea to create a charcter with Desolid to Mental only. This
> would make the character immune to mental attacks, a sort of very
> powerful mental defense. I know Desolid is not ment to be used in that
> way, but why not. The only problem is according to the rules the
> character should not then be able to make any attacks unless the power
> is bought with Effect Solid, I can understand having to buy it for
> possibly any mental powers the character might have but whats your
> opinion on the physical powers.
Well, I really have no problem with this. And I wouldn't even
make Physical attacks be purchased with "affects real world". Note that
this power will cost 30 points, 60 active. Furthermore, all mental
attacks will cost triple what they did before. For that same 30 points,
the character could buy 30 points of mental def, more than enough for most
campaigns. This looks to me like a waste of points.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:13:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Yep, it also makes it impossible for the character to affect anyone or
> anything in the "real" world without Affects Desolid on everything. In
> other words, Desolid vs. a category of attacks is a hack.
Again, Rat is allowing his personal (and wrong) opinion to shape
his reply. The necessity of "affects physical" is questionable, though it
could go either way. I'd lean towards not requiring it for non-mental
powers.
However, desolid _is_ a valid form of defense. Doing it the way
you want to is a valid power construction.
That said, I'll now tell you to take Rat's advice:
> Use Damage Reduction or a lot of Mental Defense instead.
It'll be a whole lot cheaper, and it won't fall apart vs "affects
desolid". While your idea is not the crock that Rat says it is, it is way
to expensive for the effect.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:18:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Another EE Rant...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, Bryce Berggren wrote:
> >4 - Why does *every* character in the book speak English? Everyone. Even
> >the demon. The only ones that don't are the ones that don't speak to
> >begin with. Even Carpathia, with an INT of 5 has 2 points of English.
>
> A case of realism taking a backseat to convenience. They probably thought
> (yeah, I know, implying thinking in in P9fHG is dangerous talk) that it
> helped GMs put the characters in their campaign, since the players wouldn't
> have to pull out their Berlitz phrase books just to say "freeze" ...
Still, it gets a bit silly to see English listed on *so* many characters.
> >6 - here's my favorite. Banshee is listed as a Scottish villain, except
> >the Bashee (or Ban Shide) comes from *Ireland*... But! Look at the map
> >in the character write-up... that's Ireland high-lighted... Oh, and look
> >at the art and read the description... why *does* that character have a 6
> >COM? It should be 0!
>
> My favorite's still the protective force-field as part of Despoiler's
> "mutant destructive powers" elemental control.
Yeah... I noticed that.
> >7 - Oh... Bob, I take it you noticed that Thespian's rapier is bought as
> >an *RKA*? And why does this guy have a 23 STR? The 30 PRE I can buy, but
> >a 20 COM?
>
> Actually, this one may not be Bill Tracy's fault. (Jeez, I can't believe
> I'm /defending/ this stuff.) I have a letter from Aaron Allston to another
> player running around this house somewhere, wherein he points out some
> of the drastic misunderstandings between the artist who did the Blood
> and his original notes. I have a feeling something similar happened here
> (and under Silver Hyena).
Sure. Fredd Gorham does nice stuff (well now anyway), and some of the
artwork is way off from the descriptions, but there is no reason for
Thespian to have a 23 STR. Nothing in the description/origin would
indicate the ability to lift 600 kgs.
> >9 - Neon is just a crawling mass of mistakes. He is acne scarred, with
> >greasy hair and pale skin... yet this is good enough to net a 20 COM. His
> >Darkness is defined as 'neon' gas, except I've been told that neon is a
> >colorless gas... He also has a 6d6 EB that only works in his gas cloud...
> >except that his gas cloud is Always On... He takes 2x STUN from EB...
> >okay, so he takes double damage from a game mechanic, not a SFX. He is
> >hunted by 70 points of enemies (hmm... psuhing that 50 point cap just a
> >bit?) and we learn that Mystery's Mob is more powerful than the London
> >Watch. He is hunted by each on an 8-, but only gets 15 for the Watch to
> >20 for the Mob.
>
> My brother pointed out to me, the gas cloud bit is still a limitation,
> since it effectively limits the range of the EB. As for the rest of it ...
> what's the quote? "Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, STUPID!"
Yeah, I can see that, except some sort of AOE: Radius attack would make
sense then.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:20:33 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> A dissenting opinion...the way I've seen it run (and the way I would rule
> it), someone who was Desolid to Mental Attacks (20 points) would still be
> able to affect the physical world normally. (They would have to buy
> Affects Solid on any Mental Powers they had, though.)
Like I said, I've seen it done both ways. The book could support
either.
> Someone who is only Desolid vs. Mental can still be affected physically.
> In fact, if you forced the character to pay for Affects Desolid on all
> powers, it would be extremely unbalanced against that character - game
> balance is more accurately preserved by allowing him to affect the
> physical world that he, in turn, can be affected by.
Well, absolute immunity is a pretty powerful ability.
> As for buying 'lots of Mental Defense' - doesn't work the same. The
> character wants to be /immune/ to mental attacks, not just 'really hard to
> affect'. There's always the chance that a powerful psi would get a really
> good roll, and pft, there goes your character concept.
Um, for 30 points of mental def you don't have to worry about the
good roll. You'd be immune to most everything, except for a few EGO-level
Mind Controls and such.
> Personally, I would use Desolid vs. Mental to represent someone with a
> truly bizarre mind - completely alien thought patterns, for example, or
> thinking on a completely different plane than the rest of the human race.
> People with 'Affects Desolid' on their mental powers would know the
> 'trick' to being able to read/alter/whatever your mind.
This is already accounted for in TUM. Different Classes of Minds
require different power classifications.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:23:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, Bryce Berggren wrote:
> >> Of course, as I mention elsewhere, even this wouldn't be so bad if the
> >> author had gone past the stereotypes to create interesting characters.
> >> Only with Inquisition, Silhouette, and Zephyr are the cliched characters
> >> expanded into something with a twist or a little depth.
> >
> >I will have to grudingly agree. Yes, one can present a 'stereotype' in an
> >interesting manner. Long Walker is a good example or a seterotype given a
> >cool twist.
>
> Long Walker? Ehhh ... I think Long Walker tries /too/ hard to "twist" a given
> stereotype, and ends up a jumbled mess.
Don't matter. She's still cool. And a lot more interesting that nay of
the characters in EE.
> >I personally find Mandelbrot one of the worst of the bunch.
>
> Mandelbrot's bad, admitted ... but he's not even the worst on his own team.
> Beyond Shrike, the first character in comicbook history to take contract
> bridge as her superpowered origin,
And why does anyone with 'art of serenity' have 1 1/2d6 of HKA? And a
yoga martial artist with no Breakfall? And a 15 point rep as 'Bridge
Champion'?
> there's Godfather. Why would a neo-pagan
> anarchist group with a feminist bent working to fight perceived corruption
> in Europe see any value associating with the head of a traditionally
> Roman Catholic, patriarchal organized crime group? This stretches "strange
> bedfellows" /way/ too far for my tastes.
When you look at it *that* way... Yeah, why does Godfather work with
PAGAN?
Oh, and my new favorite gaffe: Black Druid has two multipower slots that
are identical, except for the SFX (one is a water blast, one is stone), a
big no-no.
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* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:49:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Another EE Rant...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Sure. Fredd Gorham does nice stuff (well now anyway), and some of the
> artwork is way off from the descriptions, but there is no reason for
> Thespian to have a 23 STR. Nothing in the description/origin would
> indicate the ability to lift 600 kgs.
Even with taking the max lift as an absolute dead lift, this is
a bit much. However, it is matched by other Hero characters. Many Heroes
seem to be able to lift more than they should.
> > My brother pointed out to me, the gas cloud bit is still a limitation,
> > since it effectively limits the range of the EB. As for the rest of it ...
> > what's the quote? "Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, STUPID!"
>
> Yeah, I can see that, except some sort of AOE: Radius attack would make
> sense then.
Well, that's only if it effects everything in the radius. If it's
just a single attack within this limited space, a valid construction, it
makes sense.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:55:06 -0500
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
From: Bryce Berggren <ghost@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Another EE Rant...
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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At 03:07 PM 4/29/98 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> My favorite's still the protective force-field as part of Despoiler's
>> "mutant destructive powers" elemental control.
>
> Why not, consider the "field that destroys all incoming" attacks
>argument from about a year back.
I could swear I brought this up when it came up back then ... the SFX
aren't viable via this mechanic, because you can't "destroy" an opponent's
fist or focus by mere fiat. To destroy bullets, disperse energy, etc.,
use a combo of damage shield and missile deflec.
H. G.
He beats his fists against the posts
and still insists he sees the ghosts
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:55:08 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bryce Berggren <ghost@theramp.net>
Subject: RE: Yet more supplement reviews
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At 04:18 PM 4/29/98 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote:
>Nah, Long Walker is cool.
>
>Jason Goode
Oh, well, then I stand corrected. :-/ :-)
Seriously, though ... nobody else finds LW a tad /too/ noncomformist--that
is, that too much of the character is trying to be knee-jerk different?
H. G.
He beats his fists against the posts
and still insists he sees the ghosts
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From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 22:09:30 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: VTSFFC
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I'd usually advise against modifying Desolid in that way, once
precidents like that are set, they can run away with youu.
The best way I usually use for "Mental Invulnerability" if there are
a lot of high-powered mental attacks flying around the campaign is
to buy Mental Damage Reduction and a lot of Mental Def.
Daniel Pawtowski
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 22:39:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: More Wildcards?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I've finished translating the last few characters out of GURPS Wildcards.
They are: Blaise Jeannot Andrieux, Quinn the Eskimo, Dr. Bradley Latour
Finn, Nur al-Allah, Kahina, Sayyid, Rosa Maria Gambiona, Juda, Capt. John
F. X. Black, Sui Ma and Linetap.
Would people be interested in seeing them?
Sorry, I don't own "Aces Abroad", so I don't have anything from that book
(yet). If anyone out there has the book and could figure out some whay to
get me the character write-ups, I'll convert them.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 22:40:09 -0400
From: Chris Hartjes <hartjes@ionsys.com>
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Daniel Pawtowski wrote:
>
> I'd usually advise against modifying Desolid in that way, once
> precidents like that are set, they can run away with youu.
> The best way I usually use for "Mental Invulnerability" if there are
> a lot of high-powered mental attacks flying around the campaign is
> to buy Mental Damage Reduction and a lot of Mental Def.
>
> Daniel Pawtowski
A buddy of mine once created a character was invulnerable to physical
attacks by taking Desolid vs. Physical, always on, blah blah blah and
then buying Affects Physical World on his strength, which was pretty
much all the character had (he was an enemy of my PC in a
post-appocolyptic game). Is this a hack or a legitimate use of the
power?
Chris Hartjes
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 22:55:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, Chris Hartjes wrote:
> A buddy of mine once created a character was invulnerable to physical
> attacks by taking Desolid vs. Physical, always on, blah blah blah and
> then buying Affects Physical World on his strength, which was pretty
> much all the character had (he was an enemy of my PC in a
> post-appocolyptic game). Is this a hack or a legitimate use of the
> power?
I think a lot of problems will arise when one starts asking questions like
'where do the attacks go'? If you are Desolid, the attacks should pass
through you. Do you still take Knockback? Can you be felt?
I think the 120 point power 100% Damage Reduction that was suggested on
this list (by Rat I think, working from the current DR chart) should be
used in cases like this. It more accurately reflects the cost of such a
defense. In fact, it would be kind of nice to see this version of DR in
Hero 5th Edition, to stop things like 'Desolid vs this and that'.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 22:03:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
To: Chris Hartjes <hartjes@ionsys.com>
cc: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, Chris Hartjes wrote:
> Daniel Pawtowski wrote:
> >
> > I'd usually advise against modifying Desolid in that way, once
> > precidents like that are set, they can run away with youu.
> > The best way I usually use for "Mental Invulnerability" if there are
> > a lot of high-powered mental attacks flying around the campaign is
> > to buy Mental Damage Reduction and a lot of Mental Def.
> >
> > Daniel Pawtowski
>
> A buddy of mine once created a character was invulnerable to physical
> attacks by taking Desolid vs. Physical, always on, blah blah blah and
> then buying Affects Physical World on his strength, which was pretty
> much all the character had (he was an enemy of my PC in a
> post-appocolyptic game). Is this a hack or a legitimate use of the
> power?
If the attacks pass through him (making it impossible to act as a human
shield), then it's valid, if a bit expensive.
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:09:06 -0700
To: Daniel Pawtowski <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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At 10:09 PM 4/29/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
> I'd usually advise against modifying Desolid in that way, once
>precidents like that are set, they can run away with youu.
The only modification I have made in Desolid is alowing people to buy
separate elements of it as 20 point blocks (desolid to energy, physical,
mental each is 20 points) but if you buy any ONE Of them you have to use
affects solid to hit things AND you arent desolid to the elements you didnt buy.
----------------------------------------------------------
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Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:17:49 -0400
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Big teams or powerful villains?
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On Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:27:35 -0700, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>John Desmarais says:
>>On the "Your Mileage May Vary" front, don't forget to consider the
>>tactical skills of the GM. Played for several years with a GM who
>>had retired from the Army having been extensively trained in small
>>scale tactics. He would routinely whomp up on us with a villains
>>who were actually less powerful than the heroes (no, he wasn't
>>"fudging" dice rolls, except to occasionally help the PCs, he just
>>really had a strong grasp of squad-level tactics). Made for the
>>quite the challenging games.
>
>Would you care to share some of his tactics with us?
If I could I would, but being as I don't have a great mind for small scale tactics I don't
really remember the specifics all to well. I'll see if any of the other players have any
stories to share though.
-=>John D.
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:37:43 -0400
From: Chris Hartjes <hartjes@ionsys.com>
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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Michael Surbrook wrote:
>
> I think a lot of problems will arise when one starts asking questions like
> 'where do the attacks go'? If you are Desolid, the attacks should pass
> through you. Do you still take Knockback? Can you be felt?
>
> I think the 120 point power 100% Damage Reduction that was suggested on
> this list (by Rat I think, working from the current DR chart) should be
> used in cases like this. It more accurately reflects the cost of such a
> defense. In fact, it would be kind of nice to see this version of DR in
> Hero 5th Edition, to stop things like 'Desolid vs this and that'.
My friend and I have talked about putting the campaign background
together for a submission for Hero Plus or even to Gold Rush Games. For
sure, the character would have to be fixed under 5th rules. Maybe the
100% Damage Reduction will be used (if it becomes legit) or taking lots
of hardened PD and Damage Reduction on top of it.
One area of campaign supplements I haven't seen much of is the
Post-Appocalyptic genre. It has lots of cool possibilities especially
if there are some superpowered people left.
Chris Hartjes
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 22:44:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, Donald Tsang wrote:
> But there's no such power, "Desolid to Mental Attacks"!
Well, there's the +20 point enhancement that lets you be desolid to Mental
Attacks. I'm assuming that that's what the original poster is referring
to.
> Any power that
> makes you completely immune to a group of attacks, whether it be physical,
> energy, mental, or what have you, HAS to be either very expensive, very
> limiting, or both. So why do you claim this power should only cost
> 20 points?
Basic Math time.
It costs 60 points to be desolid to Physical, Energy, and Mental attacks.
It costs 40 points to be desolid to Physical and Energy attacks.
Therefore, the difference (60 - 40 = 20) is how much it should cost to be
desolid to Mental attacks.
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 22:50:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> > Someone who is only Desolid vs. Mental can still be affected physically.
> > In fact, if you forced the character to pay for Affects Desolid on all
> > powers, it would be extremely unbalanced against that character - game
> > balance is more accurately preserved by allowing him to affect the
> > physical world that he, in turn, can be affected by.
>
> Well, absolute immunity is a pretty powerful ability.
Yes, but it's absolute immunity to one specific category of attacks. (And,
for that matter, it's not /absolute/ - you must still define one category
of attacks you are affected by.)
> > As for buying 'lots of Mental Defense' - doesn't work the same. The
> > character wants to be /immune/ to mental attacks, not just 'really hard to
> > affect'. There's always the chance that a powerful psi would get a really
> > good roll, and pft, there goes your character concept.
>
> Um, for 30 points of mental def you don't have to worry about the
> good roll. You'd be immune to most everything, except for a few EGO-level
> Mind Controls and such.
Um? Assuming rolls of 10d6 (not unreasonable, especially for stuff like
Mental Illusions) you're certainly able to be affected - the average roll
won't affect you, true, but a lucky roll could have an EGO+10 or +20
effect, depending on the size of the EGO in question. That's a far cry
from being 'mentally desolid'.
> > Personally, I would use Desolid vs. Mental to represent someone with a
> > truly bizarre mind
>
> This is already accounted for in TUM. Different Classes of Minds
> require different power classifications.
I don't own TUM, and thus I have no idea what you're taking about here.
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 00:33:03 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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> A buddy of mine once created a character was invulnerable to physical
> attacks by taking Desolid vs. Physical, always on, blah blah blah and
> then buying Affects Physical World on his strength, which was pretty
> much all the character had (he was an enemy of my PC in a
> post-appocolyptic game). Is this a hack or a legitimate use of the
> power?
Quite legit, even if he doesn't go through things. However, once
again note the cost. Also, when looking at AP limits, he would max out at
about 20 STR. Plus, if you know what his weakness is, he probably has
almost no defenses.
Again, this is legitimate, but why take it? Lots of defenses
would work so much better.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 22:36:41 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 09:51 PM 4/28/1998 -0700, Chad Riley wrote:
> >> >believable then Mystical Flame? And Hunted by the T$R of a gaming world
> >> >might actually be worth something, if you consider possible ties to real
> >> >alternate dimensions. The computer is fine, though needs to be written
> >> >up. The END reserve is trash.
> >>
> >> Mandelbrot isn't Hunted by TSR, he's hunted by ICE; and it's worth 20
> >> points for an 8-, which indicates More Powerful with NCI.heet is ambiguous.
> >
> >Wasn't there a group of assassins in either DC or Hudson city called the
> >International Consortium of Evil or something like that? They had Timothy
> G Girsh
> >or what ever and the Westerner assassin from the orient and the killer art
> >critic.... Could they be the ICE that was hunting Mandelbrot?
>
> It could be changed to that, but the character sheet actually says,
> "Hunted by Iron Crown Enterprises" (for 20 points).
> ---
> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
> Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
ICE is 20 pts?!? Damn, have your characters piss off the local little league team
and you got at least 10 pts....
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 00:37:42 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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> Um? Assuming rolls of 10d6 (not unreasonable, especially for stuff like
> Mental Illusions) you're certainly able to be affected - the average roll
> won't affect you, true, but a lucky roll could have an EGO+10 or +20
> effect, depending on the size of the EGO in question. That's a far cry
> from being 'mentally desolid'.
Note that I was wrong on the amount of mental def. It would
actually be 45, as previously pointed out. (Have to account for 0 END.)
Then, assuming a base 10 EGO, the total defense would be 47. To get a
straight EGO effect, one would need a 57 on the roll. +10 is a 67, +20 is
a 77. Therefore, with a 12DC attack, +20 is impossible, +10 will almost
never happen, and straight ego will be incredibly rare. About fair for
the ability.
> > This is already accounted for in TUM. Different Classes of Minds
> > require different power classifications.
>
> I don't own TUM, and thus I have no idea what you're taking about here.
Hold on, I'll elaborate when I have a bit more time, unless
someone else wants to.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 05:39:37 +0000
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Big teams or powerful villains?
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Curt Hicks wrote:
>
> Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > The problem is I'm tired of designing 6 villains at a pop. :) Especially
> > with my players, who want to know origins, backgrounds, why these guys are
> > a team, etc...
> >
> Don't tell them. Practice saying "your character doesn't know that". (grin)
> All you really have to come up with is what's publically known.
> I was thinking about this when David Stallard started the "how do the villains
> escape" thread. Rather than having to come up with 6 villains every episode,
> that are then defeated and go to jail, if you have a good set of recurring
> villains / archenemy types that the PC's can constantly battle, all you need
> is an explanation for why they're NOT out of the picture, even though they've
> been defeated. Either have one team member be solely a mass escape expert,
> or have them working for a mastermind with a triggered long-distance teleporter.
> You could even make up a scenario involving the villain team recognizing that
> they need to acquire some reliable means of escape.
Though this can get real old. Depending on the nature of the players and the
characters they play, you can start a vigilante game. "Gee, that's the fifth
time this year that we've barely foiled a plot by Mr. Destructo. What does it
take to keep him locked away?" Blam.
You can build up a core of interesting villains that crop up occasionally when
you want good background and such. Then churn out lots of supervillians to
fill in for the one shot plots. Choose the core villains by how much the
players like to see them. Vary the power levels of the villains, sometime have
a powerful lone villain. Other times have the heroes outnumbered by weaker
villains.
One way I churned out a lot of villains was thru Power Cardz. Got pictures and
names, but just made up the powers on my own. I and my group didn't follow
most of the comics that the cards were based on, so i didn't have to worry
about treading on somebody's ideas. The more interesting I found the name and
costume, the more detailed the write up.
-Mark
Bonus GM trick: When the NPC brick gets hit, make the comment "Hey, you got me
down to double digits." Doesn't matter how much the brick started with of
course. This trick only works once...
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 00:39:44 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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> Basic Math time.
>
> It costs 60 points to be desolid to Physical, Energy, and Mental attacks.
> It costs 40 points to be desolid to Physical and Energy attacks.
>
> Therefore, the difference (60 - 40 = 20) is how much it should cost to be
> desolid to Mental attacks.
Sorry, I wouldn't give any more than a -1 for "mental attacks
only". That makes the power cost 60/2=30 points. Think of the savings by
taking all three as a special packaged deal.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Dualism/One Bad Apple
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:55:09 -0700
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On Wednesday, April 29, 1998 4:49 PM, Damon wrote:
<snip>
>
>Apologies to all the serious female gamers on the list, married or
not, but
>note the "in my experience" disclaimer -- this isn't a prejudice,
it's what
>my gaming groups have been like, Hero and otherwise, over a period of
>almost 25 years.
Agreed. The best GM I ever had told me he didn't want to add any
players, but immediately changed his tune when I mentioned that the
new player was female (and now my wife).
>Often my wife is the only woman in the group, which we
>think sucks. At the moment, there is one other woman in our Star
Hero
>game, shortly to join us in GURPS-Harn as well...and her name really
*is*
>Wendy.
>
That GM's wife played, and I found having her around was definitely
worth it, as well.
Definitely, do what you can for Wendy, even if it puts some of the
others out a little. Besides, you will probably find that the game
goes smoother, as well.
Filksinger
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:59:53 +1000
To: Hero Games <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: me <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Core Conrtibutors (was: Re: META: The List)
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At , David Fair , Hero Games <champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>---David Fair wrote:
>> Rat, Bob Greenwade, Tim Gilberg, Dave Mattingly, Lizard, Michael
>> Surbrook, John Desmaris and several others are the core contributors
>of
>> substance to this list and the loss of any one of them would make it
>less
>> useful to me.
>
>An odd assessment. With the exception of the slight increase due to
>taking over administrating the list, I've always thought of myself as
>a borderline lurker.
>
>
>
yeah! abd you didn't even MENTION me! *l* but seriuosly, I
think you are underestimating the nature of the list. You plonk
those guys in a room with only each other, not nearly as much would
come of it as appears here. I would even suggest that in any group
this large people are bound to take on these roles, or be percieved as
doing so
>==
>
> John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
>============================================
>Got a question about the list? Just ask. Or, you can go
>look over at www.sysabend.org/champions. I've been
>slowly posting information about the list there.
>
>_________________________________________________________
>DO YOU YAHOO!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 02:11:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David W Toomey)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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>
>Basic Math time.
>
>It costs 60 points to be desolid to Physical, Energy, and Mental
>attacks.
>It costs 40 points to be desolid to Physical and Energy attacks.
>
>Therefore, the difference (60 - 40 = 20) is how much it should cost to
>be
> desolid to Mental attacks.
>
By that *logic*:
It costs 20 pts to be invisible to Normal Sound.
It costs 25 pts to be invisible to Normal Sight and Normal Hearing.
Therefore, the difference (25- 20= 5) is how much it should cost to be
invisible to Normal Sight!!!! :-}
Obviously, subtracting out the cost of what you don't want to get the
cost of what you do can be very unbalancing.
David W Toomey
dwtoomey@juno.com
_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:15:32 +1000
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: me <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 12:39 AM 4/30/98 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> Basic Math time.
>>
>> It costs 60 points to be desolid to Physical, Energy, and Mental attacks.
>> It costs 40 points to be desolid to Physical and Energy attacks.
>>
>> Therefore, the difference (60 - 40 = 20) is how much it should cost to be
>> desolid to Mental attacks.
>
> Sorry, I wouldn't give any more than a -1 for "mental attacks
>only". That makes the power cost 60/2=30 points. Think of the savings by
>taking all three as a special packaged deal.
>
>
> -Tim Gilberg
>
> -"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
wellll, no. it costs 20 points to add to your spending of
40 points to get another option- it's like saying another
few hundered for an air conditioner in your car, but you have
to buy the car first. What your suggesting doesn't really fit with
the concept of mental powers. I realise i'm straying a bit into the
'powers have an inherent special effects' fallacy, but i think desolid
must be viewed kinda in these terms sometimes. I understand that
it a wide-use power (one of my pc's use it as a version of teleport)
but here i think you've strayed too far from the meaning of the power.
Desolid exists as a physical concept, the metal add-on is just that-
somehting you add. So unless you're adding it, it makes more sence
that you have to pay more. And um, i don't get what you mean about package
deals . .
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 07:19:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: CHAR: WC: Blaise Jeannot Andrieux
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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<Hey! Look! It's the new character format for all my postings. What do
you think? (Actually, I swipped this from the 'offical' Hero character
sheets, but after writing up all those characters for submisson, I
decided I'd keep using it.)>
BLAISE JEANNOT ANDRIEUX
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
8 STR -2 11- 75kg; 1 1/2d6
13 DEX 9 12- OCV: 4 / DCV: 4
10 CON 0 11-
10 BODY 0 11-
13 INT 3 12- PER Roll 12-
18 EGO 16 13- ECV: 6
10 PRE 0 11- PRE Attack: 2d6
10 COM 0 11-
3 PD 1 Total: 3 PD
3 ED 1 Total: 3 ED
2 SPD 0 Phases: 6, 12
4 REC 0
20 END 0
19 STUN 0
Total Characteristics Cost: 28
Movement: Running: 6" / 12"
Swimming: 2" / 4"
Cost Powers & Skills
Combat Training:
Martial Art: Karate
Maneuver OCV DCV Damage
4 Block +2 +2 Block, Abort
4 Dodge -- +5 Dodge vs All, Abort
5 Punch/Snap Kick +0 +2 3 1/2d6 Strike
4 Side/Spin Kick -2 +1 5 1/2d6 Strike
Takisian Heritage Powers:
105 Mind Control: 12d6, Telepathic (+1/4), 0 END (+1/2)
Background Skills:
1 AK: New York 8-
1 AK: Paris 8-
4 English
0 French (native)
2 German
1 KS: Karate 8-
2 PS: Pianist 11-
1 Streetwise 8-
134 Total Powers & Skills Cost
162 Total Character Cost
100+ Disadvantages
5 Physical Limitation: Youth (he's only 13)
Psychological Limitation:
10 Bully; likes to see others dance to his will
10 Impulsive; tends to act without thinking
15 Overconfident of mind control abilites
15 Stubborn; spoiled rottten
7 Experience
162 Total Disadvantage Points
Description:
Blaise is Dr. Tachyon's grandson. Blaise's mother was Gisele Bacourt, who
was Tachyon's illegitimate daughter. When Tachyon discovered Blaise's
existence during the WHO-sponsored tour of 1987, he brought the boy back
to New York to live with him. Unfortunately, Tachyon is a terrible
father, and tends to spoil Blaise terribly... or rage at him for acting
improperly. Blaise himself is rapidly growing up to be an arrogant and
cruel bully who enjoys using his mind control powers to make people around
him act like total fools. Eventually, Blaise will go 'wild', running free
on the streets of New York and turn on his grandfather. For more details
read Dr. Tachyon's character sheet.
This write-up is for the thirteen year-old version of Blaise. He stands
5'5" and weighs 130 lbs, with black-purple eyes and deep red hair.
(Blaise Jeannot Andrieux created by Melinda Snodgrass, character sheet
created by Michael Surbrook)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 07:21:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: CHAR: WC: Capt. John F X Black
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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CAPTAIN JOHN F. X. BLACK
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
13 STR 3 12- 150kg; 2 1/2d6
14 DEX 12 12- OCV: 5 / DCV: 5
13 CON 6 12-
13 BODY 6 12-
10 INT 0 11- PER Roll 11-
11 EGO 2 11- ECV: 4
15 PRE 5 12- PRE Attack: 3d6
10 COM 0 11-
5 PD 2 Total: 5 PD
4 ED 1 Total: 4 ED
3 SPD 6 Phases: 4, 8, 12
6 REC 0
26 END 0
30 STUN 3
Total Characteristics Cost: 46
Movement: Running: 6" / 12"
Swimming: 2" / 4"
Cost Powers & Skills
Police and Background Skills:
2 Perk: Local Police Powers
2 Perk: Weapon Permit
4 Contact: The Astronomer 13-
2 AK: Jokertown 11-
3 Bureacratics 12-
1 Criminology 8-
5 Deduction 12-
3 Interrogation 12-
2 KS: Criminal Law & Procedure 11-
3 Persuasion 12-
2 PS: Police Officer 11-
5 Streetwise 12-
3 WF: Nightstick, Small Arms
39 Total Powers & Skills Cost
85 Total Character Cost
25+ Disadvantages
3 Package Bonus: Police
Psychological Limitation:
10 Bad Tempered
10 Bully
5 (10) Greedy
5 Reputation: Tough Cop 8-
15 Secret ID: Agent of the Astronomer
10 Watched: NYPD (MoPow, NCI) 8-
2 Experience
85 Total Disadvantage Points
Description:
John Black was a former member of the Mason's and a crony of the
Astronomer's. Captain of the Jokertown Precinct, he wielded a fair amount
of power, and was a useful cog in the Astronomer's terror machine. He was
a tough cop, but greedy, which is why he worked with the Astronomer.
Capt. Black was killed soon after the Astronomer's organization was
destroyed by Fortunato.
(John F. X. Black created by, character sheet created by Michael Surbrook)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 07:23:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: CHAR: WC: Dr. Bradley Finn
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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DOCTOR BRADLY LATOUR FINN
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
13 STR 3 12- 150kg; 2 1/2d6
17 DEX 21 12- OCV: 6 / DCV: 6
15 CON 10 12-
13 BODY 6 12-
15 INT 5 12- PER Roll 12-
11 EGO 2 11- ECV: 4
13 PRE 3 12- PRE Attack: 2 1/2d6
16 COM 3 12-
4 PD 1 Total: 4 PD
3 ED 0 Total: 3 ED
3 SPD 3 Phases: 4, 8, 12
5 REC 0
30 END 0
28 STUN 0
Total Characteristics Cost: 57
Movement: Running: 8" / 16"
Swimming: 2" / 4"
Cost Powers & Skills
Wildcard (Joker) Powers:
9 Rear Hooves: HA +4d6, 0 END (+1/2), Rear kick only (-1)
4 Horse Body: Running: +2" (8" Total), 2 END
Doctor and Background Skills:
5 Money: Well-off
1 Perk: Doctor
2 AK: Jokertown 11-
3 Conversation 12-
3 Forensic Medicine 12-
3 KS: Medicine 12-
3 Paramedic 12-
3 Persuasion 12-
5 PS: Doctor (INT) 14-
3 SC: Medicine 12-
3 SC: Psychology 12-
47 Total Powers & Skills Cost
104 Total Character Cost
50+ Disadvantages
15 Distinctive Features: A centaur joker (NC)
15 Physical Limitation: Horse's body
Psychological Limitation:
10 Impulsive
15 Sense of duty to jokers and the Jokertown clinic
104 Total Disadvantage Points
Description:
Dr. Finn works at the Jokertown Clinic. He is a joker himself; a
palomino-colored centaur with blue eyes and curly white hair. He also has
a long white, floor-length tail of which he is very proud. Dr. Finn is a
young, well-adjusted man, and an excellent doctor. His medical skills are
a great asset to the clinic, as is his easy-going bedside manner.
(Dr. Bradly Latour Finn created by Melinda Snodgrass, character sheet
created by Michael Surbrook)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 05:41:13 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Superhero genre book request
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 09:21 PM 4/29/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Superhero genre book request
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>
>This is really early, and maybe it's obvious, but I wanted to voice this
>request while I'm thinking about it.
>
>A lot of supplements (Classic Enemies, Challenges for Champions, Champions
>Presents #2, etc) have generic articles giving advice on a certain aspect
>of a superhero game (Villain Psychology, Creating an Adventure, Running a
>Murder Mystery, etc). I'd like to see all of these compiled and plopped
>into the genre book. Expanding on those topics and/or adding new ones
>would be great as well, but I find these scattered articles to be some of
>the most valuable GM advice I can find....
Actually, some of these are generic enough that they could (space
considerations allowing) be included in the main rulebook. As for those
that aren't, I tend to agree; the advice given in these articles, as you
say, is very good -- and could probably even be expanded upon.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 05:52:27 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 03:06 AM 4/30/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
>cc: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>Subject: Re: Desolidification
>
>On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, Chris Hartjes wrote:
>
>> A buddy of mine once created a character was invulnerable to physical
>> attacks by taking Desolid vs. Physical, always on, blah blah blah and
>> then buying Affects Physical World on his strength, which was pretty
>> much all the character had (he was an enemy of my PC in a
>> post-appocolyptic game). Is this a hack or a legitimate use of the
>> power?
>
>I think a lot of problems will arise when one starts asking questions like
>'where do the attacks go'? If you are Desolid, the attacks should pass
>through you. Do you still take Knockback? Can you be felt?
>
>I think the 120 point power 100% Damage Reduction that was suggested on
>this list (by Rat I think, working from the current DR chart) should be
>used in cases like this. It more accurately reflects the cost of such a
>defense. In fact, it would be kind of nice to see this version of DR in
>Hero 5th Edition, to stop things like 'Desolid vs this and that'.
Rat, suggesting a new Power? You've gotta be kidding! His take on any
given idea for a new Power, a new way of breaking down a Power, a new way
of using a Power, or anything else outside the way that he's always done it
is almost always that it's a crock (there have been a couple of exceptions,
though I don't recall what they were).
100% Damage Reduction was suggested by me, and by someone else working
independently (who joined the list well after I originally gave the idea).
I don't recall whether I included it on the list of suggestions for Hero5
or not, but I do agree that it should be included (considering that
resistant 100% physical and energy DR would cost 240 points, leaving the
character scant little room for anything else).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 05:57:08 -0700
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Another EE Rant...
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At 09:18 PM 4/29/1998 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, Bryce Berggren wrote:
>
>> >4 - Why does *every* character in the book speak English? Everyone. Even
>> >the demon. The only ones that don't are the ones that don't speak to
>> >begin with. Even Carpathia, with an INT of 5 has 2 points of English.
>>
>> A case of realism taking a backseat to convenience. They probably thought
>> (yeah, I know, implying thinking in in P9fHG is dangerous talk) that it
>> helped GMs put the characters in their campaign, since the players wouldn't
>> have to pull out their Berlitz phrase books just to say "freeze" ...
>
>Still, it gets a bit silly to see English listed on *so* many characters.
Actually it's not unreasonable to assume that *most* European supers
would know English; I don't see it as unlikely for the heroes, at least,
since it's becoming a de facto international language (though I might've
expected that the Warsaw Pact would use Polish or something else local).
But I also agree that certain characters should have been left without
it, if only to allow for the complication of not having a common language
between the American PCs and the European NPCs (Inquisition comes to mind
for this). Huntsman and Zephyr also seem like logical candidates for not
speaking English.
---
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 06:05:03 -0700
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Blaise Jeannot Andrieux
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At 07:19 AM 4/30/1998 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
><Hey! Look! It's the new character format for all my postings. What do
>you think? (Actually, I swipped this from the 'offical' Hero character
>sheets, but after writing up all those characters for submisson, I
>decided I'd keep using it.)>
It's a good idea in principle, but please use spaces rather than tabs. :-]
Otherwise:
>BLAISE JEANNOT ANDRIEUX
>
>Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
>8 STR -2 11- 75kg; 1 1/2d6
>13 DEX 9 12- OCV: 4 / DCV: 4
>10 CON 0 11-
>10 BODY 0 11-
>13 INT 3 12- PER Roll 12-
>18 EGO 16 13- ECV: 6
>10 PRE 0 11- PRE Attack: 2d6
>10 COM 0 11-
>3 PD 1 Total: 3 PD
>3 ED 1 Total: 3 ED
>2 SPD 0 Phases: 6, 12
>4 REC 0
>20 END 0
>19 STUN 0
>Total Characteristics Cost: 28
---
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 06:13:50 -0700
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Core Conrtibutors (was: Re: META: The List)
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At 04:59 PM 4/30/1998 +1000, me wrote:
>At , David Fair , Hero Games <champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>>---David Fair wrote:
>>> Rat, Bob Greenwade, Tim Gilberg, Dave Mattingly, Lizard, Michael
>>> Surbrook, John Desmaris and several others are the core contributors of
>>> substance to this list and the loss of any one of them would make it less
>>> useful to me.
>>
>>An odd assessment. With the exception of the slight increase due to
>>taking over administrating the list, I've always thought of myself as
>>a borderline lurker.
>
>yeah! abd you didn't even MENTION me! *l* but seriuosly, I
>think you are underestimating the nature of the list. You plonk
>those guys in a room with only each other, not nearly as much would
>come of it as appears here. I would even suggest that in any group
>this large people are bound to take on these roles, or be percieved as
>doing so
That's my assessment as well. Most of my best ideas rely on others as
catalysts, and my best catalysts are those not listed above who write to
the list with questions like, "What variations on bank robberies can you
think of?" (Half of the list I gave, I never would have thought of without
that question.) Or, "How would you build a Power to do such-and-such?" (A
lot of the time "such-and-such" would never have occurred to me to even try
to build.)
I'd agree, though, that some of the more heated discussions on this list
have prompted general principles for my own character constructions, the
most significant of which (as far as list-inspired ideas go) is that the
way a Power is constructed should duplicate as closely as possible the
dynamic of how the Power works from the character's perspective. It's
based on this principle that I built Rattler's mental paralysis power based
on Mind Control rather than Entangle (though I do have NPCs who use the
Entangle version, including my own working of Menton) and that I currently
favor using Transform to represent ice slicks (though it's recently
occurred to me that Entangle that blocks Touch, with other appropriate
Modifiers, might be even better).
---
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 06:22:09 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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At 11:23 PM 4/29/1998 +0100, Mr Michael Pegg wrote:
>I've an idea to create a charcter with Desolid to Mental only. This
>would make the character immune to mental attacks, a sort of very
>powerful mental defense. I know Desolid is not ment to be used in that
>way, but why not. The only problem is according to the rules the
>character should not then be able to make any attacks unless the power
>is bought with Effect Solid, I can understand having to buy it for
>possibly any mental powers the character might have but whats your
>opinion on the physical powers.
The Ultimate Mentalist covers this idea, and puts a Stop Sign on it.
Following the discussion that has followed your post should demonstrate
why. (And thanks to the weirdness I've been getting with all list mail
from David Stallard and most of the ones from Tim Gilberg and Michael
Surbrook, I've already caught most of it.)
This form of Desolidification is, per TUM, and does list Only to Protect
Against Mental Powers as -1. Thus, at its base level (costing END and
everything) it's a 30 point Power. At 0 END Persistent and Always On, it
costs 48 points.
I think that the argument is very valid that a Desolid character who can
be affected by a certain type of attack should not have to pay the +2
Affects Solid Advantage for an attack of that type, on the "sauce for the
goose" principle. It's been discussed before, and some people think of it
as a crock just asking for abuse, but I think abusers will be the exception
rather than the rule (allowing, of course, that Desolidification already
has a Stop Sign next to it).
---
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 06:29:26 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Houston, we have a problem
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At 05:10 PM 4/29/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Tim R Gilberg writes:
>
>> That depends on the level of skill detail desired. However, you
>> are making your common and mistaken assumption that a player starting a
>> new character is necessarily starting a "novice" character. They really
>> could be quite experienced.
>
>I made no such assumption. I stated that I thought that 175 points is too
>high for a game that has little or no need to spend points on powers and
>gadgets. Then I presented what I thought were reasonable totals for
>certain character levels. I made no assumption that the characters were
>novices, only that a novice would be under 100 points.
You did understand how those 175 points were allotted, didn't you? 75
base points, 75 in Disadvantages, and 25 bonus points for a vehicle (the
ship)? It's really a 75+75 game when you look at it that way, and that's a
normal heroic-level game.
---
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 06:31:58 -0700
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Superhero genre book request
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At 06:09 PM 4/29/1998 -0400, Chris Hartjes wrote:
>David B Stallard wrote:
>>
>> This is really early, and maybe it's obvious, but I wanted to voice this
>> request while I'm thinking about it.
>>
>> A lot of supplements (Classic Enemies, Challenges for Champions, Champions
>> Presents #2, etc) have generic articles giving advice on a certain aspect
>> of a superhero game (Villain Psychology, Creating an Adventure, Running a
>> Murder Mystery, etc). I'd like to see all of these compiled and plopped
>> into the genre book. Expanding on those topics and/or adding new ones
>> would be great as well, but I find these scattered articles to be some of
>> the most valuable GM advice I can find....
>
>I would assume that any sort of Ultimate Supervillian submission would
>be well advised to include material such as that. Sounds like a book
>that coule be 128 pages easily.
I had the understanding that Chris Avellone had a book like this,
"Essential Villainy," that he was working on between his Asylum projects.
(This was back years ago, when I was still on AOL and watching the Hero
discussion folder there.) I don't know what ever became of this project,
however, but those that knew of it were looking forward to seeing it.
---
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: Bryce Berggren <ghost@theramp.net&> champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: Yet more supplement reviews
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:34:12 -0400
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Seemed to me that that was the whole point.
Jason Goode
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bryce Berggren [SMTP:ghost@theramp.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 9:55 PM
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: RE: Yet more supplement reviews
>
> Oh, well, then I stand corrected. :-/ :-)
>
> Seriously, though ... nobody else finds LW a tad /too/ noncomformist--that
> is, that too much of the character is trying to be knee-jerk different?
>
>
> H. G.
>
> He beats his fists against the posts
> and still insists he sees the ghosts
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: More Wildcards?
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:39:31 -0400
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Are these (and the rest of the Wildcards) on your site?
Jason Goode
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Surbrook [SMTP:susano@access.digex.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 10:40 PM
> To: Champions Mailing List
> Subject: More Wildcards?
>
> I've finished translating the last few characters out of GURPS Wildcards.
>
> Would people be interested in seeing them?
>
> **************************************************************************
> *
> * "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion
> *
> * Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net
> *
> * Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:
> *
> * http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html
> *
> * Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT
> *
> * Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark
> *
> **************************************************************************
> *
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 08:54:43 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> > Basic Math time.
> >
> > It costs 60 points to be desolid to Physical, Energy, and Mental attacks.
> > It costs 40 points to be desolid to Physical and Energy attacks.
> >
> > Therefore, the difference (60 - 40 = 20) is how much it should cost to be
> > desolid to Mental attacks.
>
> Sorry, I wouldn't give any more than a -1 for "mental attacks
> only". That makes the power cost 60/2=30 points. Think of the savings by
> taking all three as a special packaged deal.
Well, if I were creating a desolid character, I'd think that Not vs.
Physical is -1 and Not vs. Energy is -1...thus I'd give 'Not vs. Physical
or Energy' a total of -2. It /is/ removing most of the benefit from the
power - literally /everyone/ can perform a physical attack, while
mentalists are considerably more rare.
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 08:58:58 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, David W Toomey wrote:
> By that *logic*:
>
>
> It costs 20 pts to be invisible to Normal Sound.
> It costs 25 pts to be invisible to Normal Sight and Normal Hearing.
> Therefore, the difference (25- 20= 5) is how much it should cost to be
> invisible to Normal Sight!!!! :-}
Only if you completely ignore the bit where it says 'it costs 20 points to
be invisible to one sense', which is right in the book.
There /is/ no 'it costs 30 (40, whatever) points to be Desolid only vs.
Mental' in the book, therefore, myself and others are trying to
extrapolate from listed values to find a logical value and rules set for
the power.
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: Big teams or powerful villains?
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:13:31 -0400
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Or......
You could wait for the new version of Creation Workshop that includes that
rules for Hero System. It has a character generator (100% random or random
within certain parameters), complete with background sketch. Click a
button, out comes characters. Don't like that, click again or adjust your
parameters then click again. Should be out soon.
Jason Goode
P.S. I'd give you the exact page on Hero Game's site, but I can't seem to
connect to if right now.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Lemming [SMTP:icepirat@ix.netcom.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 1998 1:40 AM
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: Big teams or powerful villains?
>
> One way I churned out a lot of villains was thru Power Cardz. Got pictures
> and
> names, but just made up the powers on my own. I and my group didn't
> follow
> most of the comics that the cards were based on, so i didn't have to worry
> about treading on somebody's ideas. The more interesting I found the name
> and
> costume, the more detailed the write up.
>
> -Mark
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:13:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> This form of Desolidification is, per TUM, and does list Only to Protect
> Against Mental Powers as -1.
Per TUM, does this 'only vs. Mental Powers' also incorporate the -1/2
'can't pass through solid objects' limitation? If it does, I think that
-1 is far too low of a limitation value...
> I think that the argument is very valid that a Desolid character who can
> be affected by a certain type of attack should not have to pay the +2
> Affects Solid Advantage for an attack of that type, on the "sauce for the
> goose" principle.
It may be strange for me to be saying this, but that as a general rule
would worry me. It'd help if it didn't apply to the basic attack that
must affect a desolid person, only to those 'vulnerabilities' gained by
taking a limitation on Desolid.
As a rather chilling example, I had a character in my campaign take
Desolid (not through objects) as a sort of 'uber-Dodge' - while his
character was focusing on not being hit, he basically had a perfect
defense, no matter /how/ good the attacker was. The 'fairly common' type
of attack that could hit him was Area Effect attacks. I'm sure you can see
the potential problem there...
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
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Subject: Re: The Usual Suspects
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:20:51 -0400
x-sender: dfair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <dfair@sdslink.com>
cc: "Hero Games" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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>> Kaiser Soze: needs at least two secret ID's (you don't think that lefty
>> there was the only one, do you?) and hoards of tactics and streetwise
>
> You sure on the spelling? I was almost positive it was Sosek.
>
> I also think multiple secret IDs mixed with multiple Deep Cover
>Perks. Add KSs about each and every little detail of the criminal world
>at ungodly levels.
I'm not 100% positive, but i'm damn close, I think it is spelled on my
box, which is not here, but at Home.
>
>> skills. Should have lots of PRE (23+) and a helluva REP. Average to Good
> Easily 23+, if not more.
>> handgun skills, acting, High Society (maybe), Persuasion, oratory,
>
> Average to good handgun? I'd say much better. He was known for
>his physical prowess as well as his connections.
>
Arrgh, thats true, I was thinking of the shootout at the boat, and he
didn't show anything special there, but in the confrontation in his home
land he showed remarkable gun and knife skills. Ah, well, chalk it up to
selective memory, and give two levels with guns, one with knives, and one
in unarmed combat. Then give him two or three more levels in HTH, with
the Requires an Acting Roll limitation.
>> shadowing, stealth, and an INT in the 18-22 range. Oh yeah, EGO has to
>> be, say 23, though I may be able to be talked lower on that one. STR of
>> 12, DEX 11, CON 16 (didn't he get shot in that altercation back in
>> <foreign country of origin>, if not then maybe lower), COM 10, and 2 dice
>> of Luck.
>
> Yup. Though it would be very easy to underestimate this
>character. If you're not sure, take the higher number. And that acting
>roll would be at about a 21-.
>
>> God, I loved that movie!
>
> Me too. Just incredible. Though I had it figured out (at least a
>hunch) by the time they first met the Lawyer.
Since the first time I saw the movie, I was watching it while working
part time at Blockbuster (small town, slow night, watch a movie!), I have
an excuse for saying that I was fooled until I saw the fax; I originally
believed the lawyer to be Kaiser. I felt as taken in as I have ever felt
before, like a kid who finally figures out that fat guy in the red suit
is your grandpa and not Santa. It was that feeling that made me watch it
again, and again, and again, and finally buy it.
David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: Desolidification
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:32:18 -0400
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Invulnerable Man!
Invulnerable Man! is completely invulnerable to physical and energy attacks.
However, since he is an otherwise completely normal guy with 10 points in
skills (PS: Teacher, I think), villains find him more amusing than
threatening and his fellow heroes see no use for him except as a shield.
;-)
Jason Goode
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Greenwade [SMTP:bob.greenwade@klock.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 1998 8:52 AM
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: Desolidification
>
>
> Rat, suggesting a new Power? You've gotta be kidding! His take on any
> given idea for a new Power, a new way of breaking down a Power, a new way
> of using a Power, or anything else outside the way that he's always done
> it
> is almost always that it's a crock (there have been a couple of
> exceptions,
> though I don't recall what they were).
> 100% Damage Reduction was suggested by me, and by someone else working
> independently (who joined the list well after I originally gave the idea).
> I don't recall whether I included it on the list of suggestions for Hero5
> or not, but I do agree that it should be included (considering that
> resistant 100% physical and energy DR would cost 240 points, leaving the
> character scant little room for anything else).
> ---
> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
> Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:39:57 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Viper ideas?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Last session, the PC group battled Viper as the villains broke into a
high-tech research facility. Viper ended up getting away with the
technology to build a "killer satellite" (fire a laser down on the earth
with pinpoint accuracy). The authorities have asked the PCs to help track
down the device and recover it.
The next session could be as simple as them finding a Viper base, trashing
it, and coming home with the prize. What kinks can I throw in the works to
make this adventure more interesting and involved?
By the way, as they try to recover the device, they'll be hounded by those
little watcher-robots that MAVRIC uses to study his
opponents....foreshadowing to the adventure I plan to run next.
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:12:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
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> ICE is 20 pts?!? Damn, have your characters piss off the local little league team
> and you got at least 10 pts....
Well, right. Some of those kids can throw pretty hard, and, well,
I'm not all that great at dodging baseballs thrown at high rates of speed.
Plus, I'm kinda afraid of aluminum baseball bats and all, so . . . do you
thin I could get more powerful on that hunted? ;>
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: Character Generator
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:13:10 -0400
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I got to wandering if they ever did anything to improve Hero Maker's
amazingly horrible print capabilities, so I surfed Hero Games site
http://www.herogames.com. Lo and behold I bumped into the most amazing
program: Creation Workshop. It can do all sorts of amazing things that are
too numerous to go into here, including the random character generation I
mentioned and even convert characters between different game systems. All
that AND it only costs $5 more than Hero Maker. I bought it, and got real
familiar with it. Now, I help other people with it, I am putting Jason
Dour's Heroic Abilities Plug-in for C:MN/Fuzion into it, and I will be
putting Earthdawn into it when I am done with that. The new version is due
out next month, but I am not sure it it will have Hero System rules in it by
then.
Here's a comment that I sent them over on the Fuzion list:
[Bruce Harlick]
> -----Original Message-----
> From: BruceHH [SMTP:BruceHH@aol.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 1998 5:15 PM
> To: fuzion@pjh.org
> Subject: Re: RE: Creation WorkShop....
>
>
> In a message dated 4/16/98 4:09:33 PM, you wrote:
>
> >The best thing for you is to surf on over to Hero Games' website and read
> >their description of it.
>
> Is this a good description? Should it be enhanced? What would you guys
> suggest?
>
> Bruce, who wrote that description..
[Me]
No insult intended Bruce, but I found it just didn't reach out and grab me.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to improve it. Three suggestions though:
1) Make it easier to find. Maybe a more prominent display on that initial
splash screen for the products, instead of 2 or 3 screens deeper.
2) Play up the ability to import images and put them on the character sheet,
as well as how easy it is to do it (2 or 3 mouse clicks.) Both my players
and I think this is easily *the* single most cool thing about the whole
package. Since none of us can draw a straight line, we each scanned our
comics and found what characters that we thought fit our mental images,
slapped them on the scanner and pulled them in to Corel as Black & White
Photographs and saved them as .BMPs. Creation Workshop loads them in with a
couple of clicks and automatically resizes them to best fit into the
character picture area with no perceptible loss of image quality - very,
very cool, IMO. It even saves the picture as part of the character sheet,
so you don't have to worry about keeping the picture with the sheet - also
cool. And if you change your mind about the picture - click, click and its
gone. Click, click, new picture. This feature is just sooooo cool. (also
cool of you to include pictures for all the NPCs that come with it.)
3) Emphasize how easy printing a character sheet is, as well as the print
quality. Heromaker *SUCKED* for printing, but Creation Workshop *ROCKS*.
Print preview is cool and pretty much exactly what the sheet looks like
(with the small exception that none of the NPCs that come with the package
display the picture in print preview, until after I printed them out the
first time - probably an issue with my setup) The output is primo, and even
the pictures come out sweet on my little Okidata OL 600e laser I use at
home.
[END]
Definitely surf over there and check it out.
Jason Goode
P.S. I'm going to echo this to the list, in case there are others out there
who haven't heard of it, but would find it useful.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Mattingly [SMTP:dmattingly@platsoft.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 1998 10:48 AM
> To: Goode, Jason
> Subject: Character Generator
>
> >You could wait for the new version of Creation Workshop that includes
> >that rules for Hero System. It has a character generator (100% random
> >or random within certain parameters), complete with background sketch.
>
> Where'd you hear about this? It sounds great!
>
> Dave Mattingly
> http://www.haymaker.org
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:18:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Another EE Rant...
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> > Why not, consider the "field that destroys all incoming" attacks
> >argument from about a year back.
>
> I could swear I brought this up when it came up back then ... the SFX
> aren't viable via this mechanic, because you can't "destroy" an opponent's
> fist or focus by mere fiat. To destroy bullets, disperse energy, etc.,
> use a combo of damage shield and missile deflec.
Right. That's why a force field, nominally a defensive power,
would fit in a "destructive forces" SFX. It's using the power to simulat
an effect, that's all.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:25:21 -0400
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
From: "Joe Claffey Jr." <jrc@mail1.nai.net>
Subject: Re: Viper ideas?
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David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> writes,
>Last session, the PC group battled Viper as the villains broke into a
>high-tech research facility. Viper ended up getting away with the
>technology to build a "killer satellite" (fire a laser down on the earth
>with pinpoint accuracy). The authorities have asked the PCs to help track
>down the device and recover it.
>
>The next session could be as simple as them finding a Viper base, trashing
>it, and coming home with the prize. What kinks can I throw in the works to
>make this adventure more interesting and involved?
I can think of a few options...
1) The players have to *find* the VIPER base. If they don't find it in
time, the rocket is launched (giving away the base's location), but the
players have a *very* short amount of time to get in and activate the
satellite's self-destruct.
Alternatively, VIPER succeeds and they players must destroy the weak link
(the satellite) in VIPER's new World Order.
2) VIPER isn't building the satellite. They've been hired by a second
group (pick your favorite), who has told VIPER that the parts are for
something else entirely. VIPER doesn't like being duped, and goes along
with the heroes to pound these guys (or, teams up with the second group to
pound on the heroes).
3) For reasons unrelated to the satellite, Grond decides to pound on the
heroes (or VIPER, if the heroes are overmatched) as they assault the VIPER
base. :-)
Joe Claffey | "In the end, everything is a gag."
jrc@ct1.nai.net | - Charlie Chaplin
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Character Generator
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 08:27:30 -0700
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I had heard about the Creation Workshop, of course, but was basically
waiting for the Hero plug-ins to become available. I don't need to make
any Fuzion characters at the moment.
I didn't know about attaching pictures to the sheet, though.
Does anyone have a scanned sample output, so we can see a shot of how
the final sheets look? How about a screen shot of the program in action?
Dave Mattingly
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:38:46 -0500 (CDT)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
To: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
cc: Daniel Pawtowski <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, Christopher Taylor wrote:
> At 10:09 PM 4/29/98 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> > I'd usually advise against modifying Desolid in that way, once
> >precidents like that are set, they can run away with youu.
>
> The only modification I have made in Desolid is alowing people to buy
> separate elements of it as 20 point blocks (desolid to energy, physical,
> mental each is 20 points) but if you buy any ONE Of them you have to use
> affects solid to hit things AND you arent desolid to the elements you
> didnt buy.
Let me see if I understand you right: If I were to buy Desolid to mental,
then mental attacks would pass right through me, but fists wouldn't; OTOH,
_my_ fists would pass through anything I tried to attack. Right?
I think you'd be better off spending 120 points on 100% Damage Reduction
vs. mental attacks (also note that, if I were to allow 100% Damage
Reduction into my games, I'd require the player to specify a common set of
attacks that it would normally block that it is useless against).
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
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Subject: Re: Core Conrtibutors (was: Re: META: The List)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:41:31 -0400
x-sender: dfair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <dfair@sdslink.com>
To: "Hero Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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>>>> Rat, Bob Greenwade, Tim Gilberg, Dave Mattingly, Lizard, Michael
>>>> Surbrook, John Desmaris and several others are the core contributors of
>>>> substance to this list and the loss of any one of them would make it less
>>>> useful to me.
>>>
>>>An odd assessment. With the exception of the slight increase due to
>>>taking over administrating the list, I've always thought of myself as
>>>a borderline lurker.
>>
>>yeah! abd you didn't even MENTION me! *l* but seriuosly, I
>>think you are underestimating the nature of the list. You plonk
>>those guys in a room with only each other, not nearly as much would
>>come of it as appears here. I would even suggest that in any group
>>this large people are bound to take on these roles, or be percieved as
>>doing so
>
Well, I did say "and others". And there are some very important "others".
Mhoram's posts on Fantasy HERO, Etc. What I meant by "Core" (and I am not
trying to offend anyone i didn't mention here) is that these are the
responses that, if I am busy, I will most likely read. Because I know
that the contributor posts worthwhile stuff. These are the same people
whose posts I often save for future reference. (though many threads I
save lock, stock and barrell - every contribution)
> That's my assessment as well. Most of my best ideas rely on others as
>catalysts, and my best catalysts are those not listed above who write to
>the list with questions like, "What variations on bank robberies can you
>think of?" (Half of the list I gave, I never would have thought of without
>that question.) Or, "How would you build a Power to do such-and-such?" (A
>lot of the time "such-and-such" would never have occurred to me to even try
>to build.)
Ahh, but they give you ideas, where that same question created sparks
within my cranium, my ideas were not as varied, and were, by and lartge,
all posted by others, and yours were better than mine anyway. That why I
saved your list.
> I'd agree, though, that some of the more heated discussions on this list
>have prompted general principles for my own character constructions, the
>most significant of which (as far as list-inspired ideas go) is that the
>way a Power is constructed should duplicate as closely as possible the
>dynamic of how the Power works from the character's perspective.
It's great to have this list as both a foundry for ideas, and a crucible
for refining and defining them.
David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 08:59:30 -0700
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Character Generator
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 08:27 AM 4/30/1998 -0700, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>I had heard about the Creation Workshop, of course, but was basically
>waiting for the Hero plug-ins to become available. I don't need to make
>any Fuzion characters at the moment.
>
>I didn't know about attaching pictures to the sheet, though.
>
>Does anyone have a scanned sample output, so we can see a shot of how
>the final sheets look? How about a screen shot of the program in action?
There are screen shots on the Hero Games website.
I'm with you, mostly; I'm waiting until Hero Creator is available before
plunking down money for CW (though I might buy CW earlier and then get HC
later, just to spread out the cost a bit).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 08:59:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: How to play with the Heroes' minds
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
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The story is from a recent game involving some folks I usdd to game
with (I moved away). For reference (since the name is mentioned)
Hwisprian is a martial artists originally built for about 275, who not
must be close to 450. Ron is the GM.
"Recently Ron attacked Hwisprian at her dojo where she was training
some supers from the team. One of the baddies was a wimpy mentalist
who hoodwinked everybody without mental def into thinking some kids
were the bad guys, while the actual bad guys were lurking about
otherwise. By the time it was all sorted out, Ron had thrown Thunder
(as in "Big Trouble in Little China" Thunder) at me and I got my ass
handed to me.
We had too much muscle and not enough skill (I was training two new
characters, one of whom is run by and inexperienced player). By the
time the real team showed up, it was all over!"
-=>John D
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:03:34 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 10:32 AM 4/30/1998 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote:
>> 100% Damage Reduction was suggested by me, and by someone else working
>> independently (who joined the list well after I originally gave the idea).
>> I don't recall whether I included it on the list of suggestions for Hero5
>> or not, but I do agree that it should be included (considering that
>> resistant 100% physical and energy DR would cost 240 points, leaving the
>> character scant little room for anything else).
>Invulnerable Man!
>
>Invulnerable Man! is completely invulnerable to physical and energy attacks.
>However, since he is an otherwise completely normal guy with 10 points in
>skills (PS: Teacher, I think), villains find him more amusing than
>threatening and his fellow heroes see no use for him except as a shield.
This is something I actually did once, in a campaign where the players
came up with the basic character and the GM (me) assigned the Powers. The
character in question just seemed perfect for absolute invulnerability
(with a few pesky holes in that defense, of course). He actually came to
be quite viable, doing things like drawing enemy fire, going into severely
hostile environments, etc.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:19:56 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Yet more supplement reviews
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 08:55 PM 4/29/1998 -0500, Bryce Berggren wrote:
>At 04:18 PM 4/29/98 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote:
>>Nah, Long Walker is cool.
>>
>>Jason Goode
>
>Oh, well, then I stand corrected. :-/ :-)
>
>Seriously, though ... nobody else finds LW a tad /too/ noncomformist--that
>is, that too much of the character is trying to be knee-jerk different?
Actually, her knee-jerk nonconformism is part of why I like the
character. She'd get on my nerves as a human being, but this makes her
cool as a character. Given that my PC team leader is an attorney, I plan
on making her an opponent in a legal case (one which involves some
supervillains, natch!).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:25:53 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Viper ideas?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 02:51 PM 4/30/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Viper ideas?
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>
>Last session, the PC group battled Viper as the villains broke into a
>high-tech research facility. Viper ended up getting away with the
>technology to build a "killer satellite" (fire a laser down on the earth
>with pinpoint accuracy). The authorities have asked the PCs to help track
>down the device and recover it.
>
>The next session could be as simple as them finding a Viper base, trashing
>it, and coming home with the prize. What kinks can I throw in the works to
>make this adventure more interesting and involved?
Well, they could find the VIPER base, trash it, and learn that the
"prize" has already been passed on to the main HQ, and VIPER is going to go
ahead and build the satellite. In fact, the satellite is mostly already
built; all VIPER has to do is apply the stolen technology and launch it.
This would mean that the PCs will have to track down where the thing is
being built (probably another UC city, most likely Orlando), and try to
prevent its launch. (If they need good news at this point, you can have
them either destroy the last remaining copy that VIPER has of the plans, or
have them learn that VIPER just doesn't have the funding to try something
like this again. Or both.)
For general complications, just have one of the PCs' Hunters show up.
Or someone Hunting an NPC. Or any of the following: Foxbat, Grond, or
Interference.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:33:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Big teams or powerful villains?
To: Lizard <lizard@mrlizard.com&>
Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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---Lizard wrote:
> The problem is I'm tired of designing 6 villains at a pop. :)
Especially
> with my players, who want to know origins, backgrounds, why these
guys are
> a team, etc...
>
> And then, when I *do* come up with a detailed background and
personality,
> they make fun of his name...you know who you are!
Well, instead of making a new group of villains, build an
organization. The agents can be all the same (or fall in a small
number of archetypes) so they really only have to written once even
though you can reuse over and over. The agents don't really need
detailed background, just the organization does.
Orgs are fun to make, and once you made a good, they're easy to
maintain.
-=>John D.
_________________________________________________________
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:46:17 -0500 (CDT)
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Viper ideas?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> writes:
> Last session, the PC group battled Viper as the villains broke into a
> high-tech research facility. Viper ended up getting away with the
> technology to build a "killer satellite" (fire a laser down on the earth
> with pinpoint accuracy). The authorities have asked the PCs to help track
> down the device and recover it.
>
> The next session could be as simple as them finding a Viper base, trashing
> it, and coming home with the prize. What kinks can I throw in the works to
> make this adventure more interesting and involved?
>
Viper might not have everything it needs for their killer satellite.
The PC's could guard a site where the other parts are although this might
be too similar to the last episode. To complicate matters
further, maybe another villain group is also after those parts. Or, the
company that makes / has the other equipment is actually a front for another
villain group.
If you want to get really complicated, you could have rivalries within Viper.
That is, Viper group 'A' could be pro-killer satellite, whereas Viper group
'B' could be pro-make villainous clones of the heroes. Then Viper group 'B'
tries to sabotage 'A'.. This might be a good way for the heroes to find
the Viper base. I agree with Joe Claffey that finding the base is not
trivial. However, as he suggests, maybe there's only a limited number of
potential launch sites. That might be dramatic, a battle on or near the
launch pad as the countdown continues and exhaust is pouring out of the rocket.
When I started my game, I tried to make Viper different in that they were
originally believed to be simply a mercenary group with no plans of their own.
Not that it ever worked out..
> By the way, as they try to recover the device, they'll be hounded by those
> little watcher-robots that MAVRIC uses to study his
> opponents....foreshadowing to the adventure I plan to run next.
>
Foreshadowing ! You actually use FORESHADOWING ! I want to play
in this game ! (grin)
Curt Hicks
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:46:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: More ways to mess with thier minds
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
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Another story from my old gaming group:
Heh. Well, there was the time in a recent Fantasy Hero game where he
threw
a "Random Area of Death" at us or, more specifically, Doug's
character. I
believe it had something to do with a hunted Ron had fixed him up
with, but
it was an **invisible** demon -- so invisible that the only clue we
had to
its being there was a "funny feeling" Ron said we all had. Suddenly,
this
thing was on Doug sucking away 3d6 of body per turn.
Ron hit him up for, like, four phases of this foolishness, and the only
thing that saved him was Philip's elf pushing his healing for all it was
worth. It was, like, "zap, heal, zap, heal, za, heal, etc., etc., etc.
Downright silly.
Fortunately, there were a few of us who were able to actually harm this
thing, and we nickeled and dimed it down so that it, eventually, went
away.
But not before nearly everybody in the party had managed to take some
damage in some ancillary form.
Since that time, whenever he throws a particularly grossly over-powered
critter or gadget at us, it's referred to as a "Random Area of Death."
It's
also created a new joke...
***knock knock***
"Who is it"
(in land shark voice - jolly tone) "Random Area of Death!"
"oh... aieeee!!"
-=>John D.
_________________________________________________________
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Character Generator
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:24:11 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Final sheets are beautiful, but I don't have any scanned to show.
Screen shots have already been suggested, and Hero said that they were going
to put some screen and output shots on the web site (which may explain why
it is down right now)
Jason Goode
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Mattingly [SMTP:dmattingly@platsoft.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 1998 11:28 AM
> To: 'champ-l@sysabend.org'
> Subject: RE: Character Generator
>
> I had heard about the Creation Workshop, of course, but was basically
> waiting for the Hero plug-ins to become available. I don't need to make
> any Fuzion characters at the moment.
>
> I didn't know about attaching pictures to the sheet, though.
>
> Does anyone have a scanned sample output, so we can see a shot of how
> the final sheets look? How about a screen shot of the program in action?
>
> Dave Mattingly
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:55:02 -0700
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Blaise Jeannot Andrieux
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I would increase his EGO considerably, at least to 25, and give Armor
Piercing on his Mind Control -- he's capable of taking over even trained
Takisians, after all.
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:21:36 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Viper ideas?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Curt Hicks
>I agree with Joe Claffey that finding the base is not
trivial.<
How should I let the PCs figure out the base location? Let them meet up
with some shadowy contact who has had dealings with Viper? I don't think
that's what you had in mind, since it still sounds too easy.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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Date: 30 Apr 1998 14:29:25 -0400
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Tim R Gilberg writes:
> However, desolid _is_ a valid form of defense. Doing it the way
> you want to is a valid power construction.
I did not say that desolidification in and of itself is not a valid type of
defense. What I said is that desolidification vs. a category of attacks is
more trouble than it is worth.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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Date: 30 Apr 1998 14:35:13 -0400
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Sakura writes:
> Yes, but it's absolute immunity to one specific category of attacks. (And,
> for that matter, it's not /absolute/ - you must still define one category
> of attacks you are affected by.)
Using Desolidification for this has the accompanying disadvantage of all
the baggage that goes along with Desolidification. That is, putting a
limitation on Desolidification does not change the fact that it makes one
insubstantial and unable to affect the physical world.
[...]
> Um? Assuming rolls of 10d6 (not unreasonable, especially for stuff like
> Mental Illusions) you're certainly able to be affected - the average roll
> won't affect you, true, but a lucky roll could have an EGO+10 or +20
> effect, depending on the size of the EGO in question. That's a far cry
> from being 'mentally desolid'.
Damage Reduction is the power to use. Say an 18 Ego and 75% Mental Damage
Reuction. Watch: A 12D6 mental power has a maximum effect of 60 points.
Reduced by 75% leaves 15 points of effect, which is less than the 18 Ego.
The power has no effect.
I love Damage Reduction.
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:36:26 -0400
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Justin Calvaneso <jcalvaneso@raptor.com>
Subject: RE: Character Generator
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:24 PM 4/30/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Final sheets are beautiful, but I don't have any scanned to show.
>
>Screen shots have already been suggested, and Hero said that they were going
>to put some screen and output shots on the web site (which may explain why
>it is down right now)
Said screenshots actually did go up before the site went down. They
looked very nice. I'm saving my pennies. ^_^
---
Justin Calvaneso Raptor Systems, Inc.
Test Lab Technician a division of Axent Technologies
jcalvaneso@raptor.com 266 Second Avenue
(781) 530-2362 Waltham, MA 02154
---
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:38:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Viper ideas?
To: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Cc: "\[unknown\]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
---David B Stallard wrote:
>
> Message text written by Curt Hicks
> >I agree with Joe Claffey that finding the base is not
> trivial.<
>
> How should I let the PCs figure out the base location? Let them
meet up
> with some shadowy contact who has had dealings with Viper? I don't
think
> that's what you had in mind, since it still sounds too easy.
There really shouldn't be any one way to find it, but they do need to
work to find it. See what kind of ideas the players come up with for
tracking it down - if the idea has merit, then let it work (or give it
a chance or working).
The shadowy contact is rather like dropping the info in their laps, so
I'd only consider it as a fall-back position for you if everything
they try comes up bust.
Ideas? Here's a few off the top of my head. (I've only been kind of
half reading this thread, so some of these may not be applicable -
just ignore those)
If one of the Heroes has some type of SUPER tracking capability he may
be able to track the VIPER gettaway route.
Orbital satellite scans?
You know, a VIPER base, particularly one working on a new toy, must
use just gods of power. Either they are tapping the local power grid
(traceable from the power companies) or they are generating the power
themselves (how well shielded is that reactor anyway).
If they have a new toy to work on, VIPER will undoubtably need
additional specialized equiptment to do whatever it is they are going
to do. If the Heroes can get a good idea of the type of stuf that
VIPER will need then they can trace any shipments of said wonky gadgets.
I don't suppose any agents were captured during the stealing of the
device? Interrogation is a viable (is disreputable) means of getting
info.
Wait until the killer satelite is launched, then knock it out of sky
and trace it's launch path back to the launch site.
-=>John D.
_________________________________________________________
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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Date: 30 Apr 1998 14:42:23 -0400
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Michael Surbrook writes:
> I think the 120 point power 100% Damage Reduction that was suggested on
> this list (by Rat I think, working from the current DR chart) should be
> used in cases like this.
Actually, what I suggested is not so much Damage Reduction as Special
Effects Reduction. For 15/30/60/120 points one is 25%/50%/75%/100% immune
to a special effect. You can have either SFX Reduction or conventional DR,
but not both.
Under this particular discussion, one would define the type of mental
effects to which the character is immune, say, "psionic effects" as a
catch-all for direct mind-to-mind contact. For 120 points, the character
is completely unaffected by any such power. He could be affected by mental
powers with a different special effect, like hypnosis or psychedelics.
I really do not want to see 100% DR vs. a cagtegory of attacks (that is, no
100% Physical Damage Reduction).
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:05:21 -0500 (CDT)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net>
Subject: Re: Viper ideas?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I recently finished up a scenarios where Viper attacked a political rally as
a decoy and made off with a scientist that happens to be a master is
robotics and cybernetics. Of course the heroes decided to give pursuit one
they figured out that Viper had snagged someone other than the person that
they though was the primary target. So they get to the Viper base and it is
empty. Viper has left.
My plan is to have Viper use the scientist to begin ugrading their agents
that already have cybernetic enhancements. As well as a few new agents that
have been seriously injured in any recent battles or anyone who just wants
cyberware.
What I am looking for is some side issues that I might be able to through in
to see if my players are paying attention. You know like a series of weird
events start going on like someone starts diggin up phone lines and stealing
the fiber optics or something odd like that.
Thanks.
Dan Wojcik
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:19:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Big Trouble in Little China
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Hey, who did those write-up? Michael Surbrook? Actually, anybody who
has them handy - could you please email me a copy.
-=>John D.
_________________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:21:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Never mind (was: Big Trouble in Little China)
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Doh! Never mind. I just pulled them off Surbrooks' web page.
-=>John D.
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: Character Generator
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:22:58 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I would like to correct myself. I said that they are down. Technically,
they are not down - they have been removed from DNS. They are moving to a
new ISP and doing some radical changes to the site. They will be making an
announcement about it.
Jason Goode
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Justin Calvaneso [SMTP:jcalvaneso@raptor.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 1998 2:36 PM
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: RE: Character Generator
>
> At 01:24 PM 4/30/98 -0400, you wrote:
> >Final sheets are beautiful, but I don't have any scanned to show.
> >
> >Screen shots have already been suggested, and Hero said that they were
> going
> >to put some screen and output shots on the web site (which may explain
> why
> >it is down right now)
>
> Said screenshots actually did go up before the site went down.
> They
> looked very nice. I'm saving my pennies. ^_^
>
>
> ---
> Justin Calvaneso Raptor Systems, Inc.
> Test Lab Technician a division of Axent Technologies
> jcalvaneso@raptor.com 266 Second Avenue
> (781) 530-2362 Waltham, MA 02154
> ---
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:36:24 -0500
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Another EE Rant...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 10:18 AM 4/30/98 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>> > Why not, consider the "field that destroys all incoming" attacks
>> >argument from about a year back.
>>
>> I could swear I brought this up when it came up back then ... the SFX
>> aren't viable via this mechanic, because you can't "destroy" an opponent's
>> fist or focus by mere fiat. To destroy bullets, disperse energy, etc.,
>> use a combo of damage shield and missile deflec.
>
> Right. That's why a force field, nominally a defensive power,
>would fit in a "destructive forces" SFX. It's using the power to simulat
>an effect, that's all.
Uh, wrong. Flat DEF of any kind is just a bad way to simulate the effect
you're looking for, because it DOESN'T simulate that effect at all. Damage
Shield & Missile Deflection (separately, not in one construction) would be a
way to do this. Another way might be a /limited/ force field in place of the
Missile Deflection component.
But the Bryce is right here: one way or another it's a rather asinine
construction as written in EE. If Despoiler is really using some kind of
field that "destroys all attacks", and I punch him (his FF soaking all the
damage), does that mean he just destroyed my fist?
I think it's more likely Despoiler has this power in his EC because (a) the
writer felt he needed a defensive power regardless of SFX, and (b) the
writer has no GM to say "No!" to prospective slots in an EC (writers always
receive GM permission).
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: Viper ideas?
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:41:28 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Track a radioactive isotope or some other item unique to the satellite.
Get rumors of some place that people disappear around, particularly a
detective who was supposed to be looking for some "snake group".
Place a tracer on a Viper agent at another robbery.
The mud on a Viper agent's boot happens to be a certain kind of mud, with a
certain collection of plant seeds & spores that is only found in one place
in the local area.
Analysis of the captured agent's clothes indicate the presence of a certain
combination of chemicals, which indicates that he might have been near the
chemical plant that they are using for a cover for an extended period of
time.
If you don't like any of these and want more, let me know.
Jason Goode
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David B Stallard [SMTP:DBStallard@compuserve.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 1998 2:22 PM
> To: Goode, Jason
> Cc: [unknown]
> Subject: Re: Viper ideas?
>
> Message text written by Curt Hicks
> >I agree with Joe Claffey that finding the base is not
> trivial.<
>
> How should I let the PCs figure out the base location? Let them meet up
> with some shadowy contact who has had dealings with Viper? I don't think
> that's what you had in mind, since it still sounds too easy.
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:43:29 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 02:42 PM 4/30/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Michael Surbrook writes:
>
>> I think the 120 point power 100% Damage Reduction that was suggested on
>> this list (by Rat I think, working from the current DR chart) should be
>> used in cases like this.
>
>Actually, what I suggested is not so much Damage Reduction as Special
>Effects Reduction. For 15/30/60/120 points one is 25%/50%/75%/100% immune
>to a special effect. You can have either SFX Reduction or conventional DR,
>but not both.
>
>Under this particular discussion, one would define the type of mental
>effects to which the character is immune, say, "psionic effects" as a
>catch-all for direct mind-to-mind contact. For 120 points, the character
>is completely unaffected by any such power. He could be affected by mental
>powers with a different special effect, like hypnosis or psychedelics.
I don't know if I've said it before, but I do like this idea very much....
>I really do not want to see 100% DR vs. a cagtegory of attacks (that is, no
>100% Physical Damage Reduction).
Even keeping in mind the nigh-obscene cost? (Re: the "Invulnerable Man"
mini-thread.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:46:08 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Viper ideas?
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Palace of Dwarves
>What I am looking for is some side issues that I might be able to through
in
to see if my players are paying attention. You know like a series of weird
events start going on like someone starts diggin up phone lines and
stealing
the fiber optics or something odd like that.<
Here are a few ideas:
* Trucks carrying relevant parts start getting hijacked
* Viper starts robbing banks to get funding for the cybernetic enhancements
* The heroes start noticing "prototypes" along with normal agents...these
are Viper agents who have cybernetic limbs, eyes, etc. They don't have to
carry a gun, since they can fire lasers out of their fingers...something
like that.
* Cybernetic heroes and villains (maybe Halfjack) start disappearing,
because Viper wants to research their technology.
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:55:55 -0400
From: Joshua Krage <jkrage@access.digex.net>
To: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Viper ideas?
Mail-Followup-To: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Thu, Apr 30, 1998 at 10:39:57AM -0400, David B Stallard wrote:
> The next session could be as simple as them finding a Viper base, trashing
> it, and coming home with the prize. What kinks can I throw in the works to
> make this adventure more interesting and involved?
Good orbital launch facilities are hard to find. Viper certainly
isn't going to sacrifice one without good reason. It would be
much nicer for them to substitute their satellite for another
one about to be launched in secret by the US military. On a base
with high security rating and a healthy sense of paranoia
fanned by the Viper agents.
Since the original planned launch was so secret, the current
authorities that the players are dealing with have no idea that this
lauunch is about to take place (with the newly substituted killer
satellite). And the military isn't about to tell them that they're
launching. And the military doesn't know that the satellite has been
switched.
Mass chaos ensues as the players insist that they need access to a
high-security military facility to investigate the Top Secret
satellite that is to be launched in the next 15 minutes.
And if someone else took exception to Viper's launching of their
own killer satellite and blew up the launch facility while the
players were playing tag with the military, well, then wouldn't
this be a pretty picture?
And wouldn't the media be following the PCs? Neat headlines!
"Heroes Invade Military Base"
--
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jkrage@access.digex.net UNIX and Networks and Computer Security, oh my!
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:59:04 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Viper ideas?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 02:05 PM 4/30/1998 -0500, Palace of Dwarves wrote:
>I recently finished up a scenarios where Viper attacked a political rally as
>a decoy and made off with a scientist that happens to be a master is
>robotics and cybernetics. Of course the heroes decided to give pursuit one
>they figured out that Viper had snagged someone other than the person that
>they though was the primary target. So they get to the Viper base and it is
>empty. Viper has left.
>
>My plan is to have Viper use the scientist to begin ugrading their agents
>that already have cybernetic enhancements. As well as a few new agents that
>have been seriously injured in any recent battles or anyone who just wants
>cyberware.
>
>What I am looking for is some side issues that I might be able to through in
>to see if my players are paying attention. You know like a series of weird
>events start going on like someone starts diggin up phone lines and stealing
>the fiber optics or something odd like that.
Well, besides the fiber-optic phone lines you mention, cyberware could
include any of the following components:
Lenses (the equipment for which is stolen from one-hour eyeglass store)
High-performance computer processors (from a computer warehouse)
Latex "flesh" (from a movie/TV special effects studio)
Radio transceivers (from a hobby store that sells RF vehicles & toys)
High-powered miniature motors (from robots at any machine manufacturing
plant)
Framework (the equipment for which is stolen from a prosthetics
manufacturer)
There a lot more, of course, but this should get you started.
Then there's the possibility that any former VIPER agents who have been
injured at the PCs' hands suddenly vanish from their prison wards.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:04:55 -0400
From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Zodiac scenarios
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Most of the proposed scenarios in the Zodiac Conspiracy seem a little too
unusual to me. I've used the one involving the fight at the Statue of
Liberty, but I'm not entirely happy with the rest of them...at least not
until Zodiac is more established in my campaign. Does anybody have some
more "regular" experiences with Zodiac they'd like to share, or just some
adventure ideas involving Zodiac? When you use Zodiac, do all 12 members
make an appearance, or does each appearance feature a different sub-roster?
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org&>
"Michael Surbrook" <susano@access.digex.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 98 20:09:17
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Dr. Bradley Finn
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Thu, 30 Apr 1998 07:23:21 -0400 (EDT), Michael Surbrook wrote:
>DOCTOR BRADLY LATOUR FINN
>
>Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
>13 STR 3 12- 150kg; 2 1/2d6
>17 DEX 21 12- OCV: 6 / DCV: 6
>15 CON 10 12-
>13 BODY 6 12-
>15 INT 5 12- PER Roll 12-
>11 EGO 2 11- ECV: 4
>13 PRE 3 12- PRE Attack: 2 1/2d6
>16 COM 3 12-
>4 PD 1 Total: 4 PD
>3 ED 0 Total: 3 ED
>3 SPD 3 Phases: 4, 8, 12
>5 REC 0
>30 END 0
>28 STUN 0
>Total Characteristics Cost: 57
>
>Movement: Running: 8" / 16"
> Swimming: 2" / 4"
>
>Cost Powers & Skills
>Wildcard (Joker) Powers:
>9 Rear Hooves: HA +4d6, 0 END (+1/2), Rear kick only (-1)
>4 Horse Body: Running: +2" (8" Total), 2 END
>
>Doctor and Background Skills:
>5 Money: Well-off
>1 Perk: Doctor
>2 AK: Jokertown 11-
>3 Conversation 12-
>3 Forensic Medicine 12-
>3 KS: Medicine 12-
>3 Paramedic 12-
>3 Persuasion 12-
>5 PS: Doctor (INT) 14-
>3 SC: Medicine 12-
>3 SC: Psychology 12-
>47 Total Powers & Skills Cost
>104 Total Character Cost
>
>50+ Disadvantages
>15 Distinctive Features: A centaur joker (NC)
>15 Physical Limitation: Horse's body
> Psychological Limitation:
>10 Impulsive
>15 Sense of duty to jokers and the Jokertown clinic
>104 Total Disadvantage Points
>
>Description:
>Dr. Finn works at the Jokertown Clinic. He is a joker himself; a
>palomino-colored centaur with blue eyes and curly white hair. He also has
>a long white, floor-length tail of which he is very proud. Dr. Finn is a
>young, well-adjusted man, and an excellent doctor. His medical skills are
>a great asset to the clinic, as is his easy-going bedside manner.
>
>(Dr. Bradly Latour Finn created by Melinda Snodgrass, character sheet
>created by Michael Surbrook)
>
>***************************************************************************
>* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
>* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
>* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
>* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
>* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
>* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
>***************************************************************************
>
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org&>
"Michael Surbrook" <susano@access.digex.net>
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 98 20:10:09
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Dr. Bradley Finn
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Thu, 30 Apr 1998 07:23:21 -0400 (EDT), Michael Surbrook wrote:
>DOCTOR BRADLY LATOUR FINN
<snip>
Shouldn't you have a level or two of Growth in there (qv FH centaurs)
qts
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:23:07 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Daniel Pawtowski <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Let me see if I understand you right: If I were to buy Desolid to mental,
> then mental attacks would pass right through me, but fists wouldn't; OTOH,
> _my_ fists would pass through anything I tried to attack. Right?
That is one reading of it.
> I think you'd be better off spending 120 points on 100% Damage Reduction
> vs. mental attacks (also note that, if I were to allow 100% Damage
> Reduction into my games, I'd require the player to specify a common set of
> attacks that it would normally block that it is useless against).
Why? 100% damage reduction is only one class of attacks.
(Physical, Mental, or Energy). You're still vulnerable to the other two.
Getting just Phys and Energy, we're talking about 240 points. For that
much expenditure, there is no reason to hamstring the power. If you
require one SFX to be vulnerable to, give that a limitation value of -1/4
or -1/2, but don't make something like that free.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:41:10 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> > However, desolid _is_ a valid form of defense. Doing it the way
> > you want to is a valid power construction.
>
> I did not say that desolidification in and of itself is not a valid type of
> defense. What I said is that desolidification vs. a category of attacks is
> more trouble than it is worth.
You said it was a crock, and that I disagreed with. I'll usually
agree that it is a _lot_ more trouble than it is worth.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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Date: 30 Apr 1998 16:41:13 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Bob Greenwade writes:
>> I really do not want to see 100% DR vs. a cagtegory of attacks (that is,
>> no 100% Physical Damage Reduction).
> Even keeping in mind the nigh-obscene cost? (Re: the "Invulnerable Man"
> mini-thread.)
Yes, even keeping in mind the nigh-obscene cost, because it really is not a
matter of cost. It is a matter of concept. You simply do not see
characters like this in fiction outside of plot devices and the occasional
parody. Plot devices have no point cost. And as for parodies, there are
better systems out there for that.
At the very least, playing a character that cannot be harmed by anything is
boring.
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:04:27 -0500 (CDT)
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Viper ideas?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
>
> ---David B Stallard wrote:
> >
> > Message text written by Curt Hicks
> > >I agree with Joe Claffey that finding the base is not
> > trivial.<
> >
> > How should I let the PCs figure out the base location? Let them
> meet up
> > with some shadowy contact who has had dealings with Viper? I don't
> think
> > that's what you had in mind, since it still sounds too easy.
>
Definitely too easy. Although it might work if it was part of a intra-agency
rivalry, or another villain wanted to use the heroes as pawns to oppose
their rivals. One thing to remember here, is that tracking down Viper
bases should be DIFFICULT. Otherwise, the heroes will spend time
regularly tracking down and eliminating Viper bases. It shouldn't be any
easier to do for this one scenario than it is all of the time. (Unless
the heroes got smart and put some kind of tracking device on the stolen
stuff.)
> There really shouldn't be any one way to find it, but they do need to
> work to find it. See what kind of ideas the players come up with for
> tracking it down - if the idea has merit, then let it work (or give it
> a chance or working).
>
Or let each idea narrow down the location. So they need two or three good
ideas and then need to search an area.
>
> If one of the Heroes has some type of SUPER tracking capability he may
> be able to track the VIPER gettaway route.
Yep.
>
> Orbital satellite scans?
>
Would detect the launch, but probably not a base.
> You know, a VIPER base, particularly one working on a new toy, must
> use just gods of power. Either they are tapping the local power grid
> (traceable from the power companies) or they are generating the power
> themselves (how well shielded is that reactor anyway).
>
Yep. Classic idea for tracking down the bad guys. Talk to the power company
and find out who's sucking down power.
> If they have a new toy to work on, VIPER will undoubtably need
> additional specialized equiptment to do whatever it is they are going
> to do. If the Heroes can get a good idea of the type of stuf that
> VIPER will need then they can trace any shipments of said wonky gadgets.
>
This is a good twist on the stand guard at other components.
Curt
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:23:00 -0500
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Blaise Jeannot Andrieux
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-24
From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David W Toomey)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Thu, 30 Apr 1998 06:05:03 -0700 Bob Greenwade
<bob.greenwade@klock.com> writes:
>At 07:19 AM 4/30/1998 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>><Hey! Look! It's the new character format for all my postings.
>What do you think?
> It's a good idea in principle, but please use spaces rather than
>tabs. :-]
> Otherwise:
>
>>BLAISE JEANNOT ANDRIEUX
>>
>>Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
>>8 STR -2 11- 75kg; 1 1/2d6
>>13 DEX 9 12- OCV: 4 / DCV: 4
<<snipped>>
Actually, it came out perfectly on my mailer, unusual for me....
David W Toomey
dwtoomey@juno.com
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:35:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Desolidification
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-16,18,20-23,25,27,29-32,34,36-42
From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David W Toomey)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>> It costs 20 pts to be invisible to Normal Sound.
>> It costs 25 pts to be invisible to Normal Sight and Normal Hearing.
>> Therefore, the difference (25- 20= 5) is how much it should cost to
>be
>> invisible to Normal Sight!!!! :-}
>Only if you completely ignore the bit where it says 'it costs 20
>points to
>be invisible to one sense', which is right in the book.
>
>There /is/ no 'it costs 30 (40, whatever) points to be Desolid only
>vs.
>Mental' in the book
Yes there is!
"For a Desolid character to be immune to Mental Powers costs +20
Character
^^^^^
Points."
It says nothing about specific SFX Desol, other than the general
assumption that
you can take limitations on any power. NOWHERE in the rules will you
find the
concept of breaking down powers the way you want to- see previous
discussions
on 'breaking-down' Growth, DI, and others.
Having said that, you can always use any house rule you want, but paying
20 pts for near-perfect Mental invulnerablity seems far too cheap, even
if you
re-figure it as 0-End,Persistant, Always on for 27 pts-as 75%
non-resistant
Damage Reduction costs 40.
David W Toomey
dwtoomey@juno.com
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 30 Apr 1998 17:37:24 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Tim R Gilberg writes:
> You said it was a crock, and that I disagreed with.
Here is exactly what I wrote:
> Yep, it also makes it impossible for the character to affect anyone or
> anything in the "real" world without Affects Desolid on everything. In
> other words, Desolid vs. a category of attacks is a hack.
^^^^
And I just noticed the typo: that should be "Affects Solid", not "Affects
Desolid". Sorry.
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--
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:48:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Blaise Jeannot Andrieux
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 07:19 AM 4/30/1998 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> ><Hey! Look! It's the new character format for all my postings. What do
> >you think? (Actually, I swipped this from the 'offical' Hero character
> >sheets, but after writing up all those characters for submisson, I
> >decided I'd keep using it.)>
>
> It's a good idea in principle, but please use spaces rather than tabs. :-]
> Otherwise:
Oh well. Sorry Bob, the sheets are written this way for posting on my
website, I'm not going to redo all 180+ for posting to the list. Besides,
just drop it into any text editor and it will look okay. And, the ones
with spaces never look write on my mailer.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:50:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: More Wildcards?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Goode, Jason wrote:
> Are these (and the rest of the Wildcards) on your site?
Yes. My original 65+ adpations are at
www.access.digex.net/~susano/wildcards.html
Oh, Bob? I've switched them all over to the new format.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:52:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Blaise Jeannot Andrieux
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Lizard wrote:
> I would increase his EGO considerably, at least to 25, and give Armor
> Piercing on his Mind Control -- he's capable of taking over even trained
> Takisians, after all.
Not at age 13 he isn't. The version here (taken from the sourcebook) is
just before Blaise hit puberty and *really* becomes powerful. But, yes,
the latter Blaise was disgustingly powerful and could control
just about *anybody*.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:54:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Dr. Bradley Finn
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, qts wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Apr 1998 07:23:21 -0400 (EDT), Michael Surbrook wrote:
>
> >DOCTOR BRADLY LATOUR FINN
>
> <snip>
>
> Shouldn't you have a level or two of Growth in there (qv FH centaurs)
> qts
I considered it, but Finn is roughly the size of a large human. I think
he's like 6' long and about 250-300 pounds, not quite big enough. One
could give him a level, but only one, going and large will throw his
weight off.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:55:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Never mind (was: Big Trouble in Little China)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, John Desmarais wrote:
> Doh! Never mind. I just pulled them off Surbrooks' web page.
And in case anyone else was interested:
www.access.digex.net/~susano/hkaction.html
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:17:48 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Yes, even keeping in mind the nigh-obscene cost, because it really is not a
> matter of cost. It is a matter of concept. You simply do not see
> characters like this in fiction outside of plot devices and the occasional
> parody. Plot devices have no point cost. And as for parodies, there are
> better systems out there for that.
Eh? Rat, just because you can't think of a character concept for
it does not make it invalid.
> At the very least, playing a character that cannot be harmed by anything is
> boring.
Your opinion. I think playing a character near perfect in one
area and lacking in others can be quite interesting.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:20:03 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> > You said it was a crock, and that I disagreed with.
>
> Here is exactly what I wrote:
>
> > Yep, it also makes it impossible for the character to affect anyone or
> > anything in the "real" world without Affects Desolid on everything. In
> > other words, Desolid vs. a category of attacks is a hack.
"Hack" and "Crock" carry the same connotation. "Kludge" works
too. I still say it's perfectly valid, though not worth the cost.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:24:36 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Donald Tsang wrote:
> Hmm, Rat is actually right, for once. People _do_ make SFX assumptions.
> A liquid form, for example, should be able to pass through most barriers
> ("except for those that are watertight"), yet still be vulnerable to
> both energy and physical attacks. There's a difference between being
> immune to an attack and being "desolid" versus a barrier...
Indeed there is. (Apparently, being able to pass through barriers is
about 1/3 the points you put into desolid, since you get a -1/2 limit for
not being able to do it.)
Now, should a 'body of water' character have to pay for 'Affects Solid' on
any powers, even though he can freely be affected by physical and energy
attacks? I would hope not, because otherwise it makes the ability to pass
through barriers far more expensive than its worth.
Arguing the other side, though, the only reason you'd absolutely need to
have 'Affects Solid' on is if you wanted to, for example, punch someone
while you were oozing through a wall, because that's the only time you'd
/need/ to be desolid - just buy it at 0 end and say 'he's always water,
but he's only technically desolid when he's moving through something'.
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:01:36 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Zodiac scenarios
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
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At 08:20 PM 4/30/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: David B Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Zodiac scenarios
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>
>Most of the proposed scenarios in the Zodiac Conspiracy seem a little too
>unusual to me. I've used the one involving the fight at the Statue of
>Liberty, but I'm not entirely happy with the rest of them...at least not
>until Zodiac is more established in my campaign. Does anybody have some
>more "regular" experiences with Zodiac they'd like to share, or just some
>adventure ideas involving Zodiac? When you use Zodiac, do all 12 members
>make an appearance, or does each appearance feature a different sub-roster?
I've never had the opportunity to use the Zodiac, but I'll see what
ideas I can come up with to be helpful.
First, for early adventures I'd avoid using the full team. After all,
there are twelve of them, and some of them are pretty darn tough. Start
with the Special Assignment Teams described on page 26 of ZC. The earliest
scenarios would probably involve Team Gamma, then add Beta and Alpha to the
mix (not in the same adventure, just as things go on).
Some of the earliest adventures would probably involve bits dealing with
the members' personal agendas. Only after that would some of the "bigger"
scenarios be played out.
Here are some ideas, member by member:
Team Gamma:
Capricorn - Is there an attractive and publicly-visible unmarried female
among the DNPC? If not, how about an attractive PC? He might target that
individual for courtship (short-term, of course, and probably in his Sean
Quinlan identity). If rebuffed, he might ask to use Zodiac resources to
win his conquest. He could also turn his attention to some magical tome or
artifact, something a little more sure to win Taurus' approval.
Gemini - He would, no doubt, see the Church as a threat to his plans.
Depending on your world view, this could be specifically the Roman Catholic
Church, the Proestant churches, those that are experiencing movements of
power (like Brownsville Assembly of God in Pensacola or the Toronto Airport
Assembly), those that have appreciable community influence, or any other
criterion you like. If one of the "centers of power" for the "dangerous"
church is near the campaign city, then Gemini could target such a place.
Virgo - No doubt she'd like very much to squash PSI. You could let
Zodiac Team Gamma become a mysterious complication in any PSI scenario,
especially one in which the PCs are outclassed. Since her presence in the
Zodiac rules out any peace with PSI, Taurus would almost certainly see them
as a threat and approve her plans for desctruction.
Taurus - Most of the "little" plans he comes up with should be
unfathomable at first. He might try to "fix" an election in favor of the
most competent candidate (or the least competent, depending on how you
think it would affect his popularity as future world leader). More likely,
though, he'll be the host of some kind of symposium to which an
intellectually-oriented PC can be invited. If he is known to the PCs, he
could even be seen heading in the direction of some well-known man of
wisdom, only to have to explain repeatedly that he's only going there to
talk (which is the truth).
Team Beta:
Leo - After the Zodiac has been active for a while, it's probable that
more hero groups than the PCs have been meeting them. He could lead a
frontal strike against some team that's been particularly troublesome, with
the aim of crippling them (at least figuratively, though literally is
possible too). More in keeping with Team Beta's nature, they could try
breaking into the PCs' headquarters to get their information on one of
Zodiac's enemies.
Pisces - If you have Pat Bradley's Atlantis book, she can be a good
complication in one of the existing scenarios, or an attack prompted by her
could be a scenario in itself (with Sea Guard approaching the PCs for
help). If an open attack doesn't appeal to you, you could instead have
Team Beta steal some powerful and important Atlantean artifact (or maybe a
truckload of orichalcum), which the PCs are asked to help retrieve.
Sagittarius - She's gonna have a grudge against the NYPD, especially
those officers who brought her agency to an end, and most particularly Kirk
Miller (who is probably a man of some rank by now). Though Taurus despises
killing, he might be convinced to allow her to go on a killing spree of
everyone involved in that raid (who wasn't killed at the time), with
chilling clues being sent to Miller.
Scorpio - It would be helpful to him to be able to get his old Ninja
order off his back. Rather than eliminate them toward this end, though, he
could try offering his services -- complete with full Zodiac backing -- to
his old master on an occasional basis. While this would be unacceptable
under Japanese tradition as I understand it, I don't get the impression
that the Grandmaster as quite that traditional. Team Beta working
assistance and backup for a group of ninjas on theft and small-scale
assassination raids could be chilling.
Team Alpha:
Aquarius - Robbing Fort Knox -- or even stealing it, to borrow from an
earlier discussion thread -- seems like a natural for him. On a less
ostentatious scale, he could use his magic to influence the weather (more
subtly that usual) in a way that severely strains the economy of some
anti-witchcraft community (maybe he's the one responsible for El Nino!).
Aries - He tends to not have a lot of plans of his own, but if he could
destroy the headquarters of World Class Wrestling it would just make his day.
Cancer - While LOK-480K is a robot and does not have plans of its own,
it could suffer a minor breakdown, which would prompt the other Zodiac
members to seek out replacement parts. Similarly, the PCs could be
contacted by Orrad (of METE) to help him track down this missing LOK unit
that recently-uncovered records indicate was last known to be in this sector.
Libra - The final destruction of the SHIFT project, and all records of
her involvement with it, would be both in her better interests, and the
group's. If the laboratory is utterly destroyed and no witnesses are left,
then what's left is a mystery for whoever comes along next (the PCs,
perhaps?) to investigate. She could also set out to kill those people
(other than the already-deceaced Sunwarrior) who have caused pain in her
life, like the child pornographer with whom she got involved at age 14.
Hopefully at least a few of those ideas will be useful. :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 20:14:18 -0400 (EDT)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>> Hmm, Rat is actually right, for once. People _do_ make SFX assumptions.
>> A liquid form, for example, should be able to pass through most barriers
>> ("except for those that are watertight"), yet still be vulnerable to
>> both energy and physical attacks. There's a difference between being
>> immune to an attack and being "desolid" versus a barrier...
I personally would use Shapeshift for this effect. It's something a liquid
form character should have anyways - unlike Desolid, which liquid characters
really should not, IMHO.
Of course, this brings up a pet beef; namely, the fact that certain
non-attack powers require a half-phase to perform (Shapeshift, Multiform,
etc.) while others (Instant Change) do not. While that's fine for a
_default_ of the power, getting rid of that default time should be an
officially defined option (what would you give it as an advantage?).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Now, we get bigger guns."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins and Ron Prins
jprins@interhop.net
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:24:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On 30 Apr 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> At the very least, playing a character that cannot be harmed by anything is
> boring.
Well, even at 360 points (100% DR vs Physical, Energy, and Mental) you're
not completely invulnerable. An entangle (or a grab!) will still take you
out of the action as easily as the next guy. Transforms will still work
on you, as will Drains, Transfers, and other Adjustment Powers. (And what
happens when someone Drains your Damage Reduction? Your formerly
invulnerable character has to deal with Deep Hurting...)
More mundanely, things like suffocation or drowning would still work
(unless you purchased Life Support).
Also, in any campaign, if you've spent 360 points on defense, you're going
to be seriously lacking in some areas in comparison to the other
characters. ('Yeah, we can all level mountains, fly at hyperlight speed,
and create life from basic elements. Except for him. He can't do anything
except not be hurt.')
The only way I can see that this character would be boring is if the
player and the GM were both seriously lacking in imagination - if the
campaign centered around fighting, for example, and nobody was clever
enough to find a way to deal with this character.
For that matter, I think complete invulnerability would be interesting to
explore in a role-playing sense. How does it affect the character's
attitude towards life? Are there any side effects to the power? (just
hope the character never needs surgery...) What happens when he loses it
temporarily? (see the Drain comment, above)
The concept is only boring if you work to make it so...
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:01:45 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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At 04:41 PM 4/30/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Bob Greenwade writes:
>
>>> I really do not want to see 100% DR vs. a cagtegory of attacks (that is,
>>> no 100% Physical Damage Reduction).
>
>> Even keeping in mind the nigh-obscene cost? (Re: the "Invulnerable Man"
>> mini-thread.)
>
>Yes, even keeping in mind the nigh-obscene cost, because it really is not a
>matter of cost. It is a matter of concept. You simply do not see
>characters like this in fiction outside of plot devices and the occasional
>parody. Plot devices have no point cost. And as for parodies, there are
>better systems out there for that.
>
>At the very least, playing a character that cannot be harmed by anything is
>boring.
You should've been around for that campaign. The character was quite an
interesting type, with all sorts of uses. In fact, his was the only player
who never got bored during that campaign; I can't say so much for the
speedster, the growing brick, or the flame-producing energy projector.
(And I've never really thought of the Silver Age Superman or Aquarian as
"plot devices" or "parodies.")
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 30 Apr 1998 21:07:21 -0400
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Tim R Gilberg writes:
> "Hack" and "Crock" carry the same connotation.
Not in my book. If I meant crock I would have said crock.
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 30 Apr 1998 21:08:11 -0400
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Sakura writes:
> Indeed there is. (Apparently, being able to pass through barriers is
> about 1/3 the points you put into desolid, since you get a -1/2 limit for
> not being able to do it.)
Actually, the power in this case is Tunnelling, not limited
Desolidification.
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 20:41:31 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: RE: Character Generator
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:22 PM 4/30/98 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote:
>I would like to correct myself. I said that they are down. Technically,
>they are not down - they have been removed from DNS. They are moving to a
>new ISP and doing some radical changes to the site. They will be making an
>announcement about it.
>
>Jason Goode
Radical changes. Sigh! I miss the "old" site already. Putting up the
'sidebar' background on the main page wasn't bad, though I didn't see that
it really added anything to the site. A month later they'd added frames,
which virtually never add any real function to *any* site. At least there
was a No Frames version available. But what's next? ActiveX/Java/animated
.GIFs/optimized for MSIE 4.0? One enhancement I *would* like to see:
someone should use a spellchecker before uploading changes to the site.
Damon
expecting the worst so I'm never disappointed
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:53:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> >I think the 120 point power 100% Damage Reduction that was suggested on
> >this list (by Rat I think, working from the current DR chart) should be
> >used in cases like this. It more accurately reflects the cost of such a
> >defense. In fact, it would be kind of nice to see this version of DR in
> >Hero 5th Edition, to stop things like 'Desolid vs this and that'.
>
> Rat, suggesting a new Power? You've gotta be kidding! His take on any
> given idea for a new Power, a new way of breaking down a Power, a new way
> of using a Power, or anything else outside the way that he's always done it
> is almost always that it's a crock (there have been a couple of exceptions,
> though I don't recall what they were).
Well, I did say 'I think'. I do remember that he *didn't* blast it, but
yes, several people suggested the power.
> 100% Damage Reduction was suggested by me, and by someone else working
> independently (who joined the list well after I originally gave the idea).
> I don't recall whether I included it on the list of suggestions for Hero5
> or not, but I do agree that it should be included (considering that
> resistant 100% physical and energy DR would cost 240 points, leaving the
> character scant little room for anything else).
Yeah, at 120 points a pop, that a lot of points sunk into *one* ability.
And it still leaves one open to a whole host of other attacks.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 20:54:05 -0500
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>> "Hack" and "Crock" carry the same connotation.
>
>Not in my book. If I meant crock I would have said crock.
Connotation, not denotation...
According to the Jargon File (v3.0.0) [slightly edited/reformatted]:
>
>Finally, note that many words in hacker jargon have to be understood
>as members of sets of comparatives. This is especially tru describe
>the beauty and functional quality of code. Here is an approximately
>correct spectrum:
>
> monstrosity brain-damage screw bug lose misfeature
> crock kluge hack win feature elegance perfection
>
>Crock(n) [from the American scatologism "crock of shit"]
>1. An awkward feature or programming technique that ought to be made
> cleaner. [...]
>2. A technique that works acceptably, but which is quite
> prone to failure if disturbed in the least. [...]
>
>Hack(n)
>1. Originally, a quick job that produces what is needed, but not well.
>2. An incredibly good, and perhaps very time-consuming, piece of work
> that produces exactly what is needed.
If Rat speaks in "Hackish", which he does, they might connote different
things. If other people read in American English, they might connote
the same thing.
Donald
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:58:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On 30 Apr 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >> I really do not want to see 100% DR vs. a cagtegory of attacks (that is,
> >> no 100% Physical Damage Reduction).
>
> > Even keeping in mind the nigh-obscene cost? (Re: the "Invulnerable Man"
> > mini-thread.)
>
> Yes, even keeping in mind the nigh-obscene cost, because it really is not a
> matter of cost. It is a matter of concept. You simply do not see
> characters like this in fiction outside of plot devices and the occasional
> parody. Plot devices have no point cost. And as for parodies, there are
> better systems out there for that.
Sure you do. Elementals that cannot be harmed by their own elements.
Gods, or god-like beings that cannot be harmed by certain types of
attacks. Grendel who was immune to balded weapons. Achilles, who was
immune to *everything*. The skin of the Nemedian lion, which conferred
total invulnerability opn Hercules. The Sait of Killers, who is immune to
any physical force, up to and including a nuke. Lovecraftian monsters
immune to bullets...
Saying 'plot' device is nice, but I think a responsible GM should try and
write up his creations and give them some sort of point toal.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:14:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: CHAR: WC: Linetap
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
LINETAP
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
9 STR -1 11- 87.5kg; 1 1/2d6
10 DEX 0 11- OCV: 3 / DCV: 3
10 CON 0 11-
10 BODY 0 11-
10 INT 0 11- PER Roll 11-
11 EGO 2 11- ECV: 4
10 PRE 0 11- PRE Attack: 2d6
6 COM -2 10-
2 PD 0 Total: 2 PD
2 ED 0 Total: 2 ED
2 SPD 0 Phases: 6, 12
4 REC 0
20 END 0
20 STUN 0
Total Characteristics Cost: -1
Movement: Running: 6" / 12"
Swimming: 2" / 4"
Cost Powers & Skills
Combat Training:
8 Telepathic Skill: +4 with Telepathy
Wildcard (Joker/Ace) Powers:
24 Telepathy: 6d6, Invisible (+1/2), 0 END (+1/2), Read Only (-1/2),
Act 11- (-1)
Background Skills:
3 Contact: Shadow Fists 11-
2 AK: Jokertown 11-
5 AK: New York 14-
3 Contortionist 11-
1 KS: Shadow Fists 8--
5 Streetwise 12-
51 Total Powers & Skills Cost
50 Total Character Cost
25+ Disadvantages
15 Distinctive Features: Orange scaled, reptilian joker (NC)
10 Psychological Limitation: Loyal to the Shadow Fists
50 Total Disadvantage Points
Description:
Linetap is a short, reptilian joker with orange scales. A member of the
Shadow Fists, he is used as a lookout and in areas where he can eavesdrop
on others conversations.
(Linetap created by, character sheet created by Michael Surbrook)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:16:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: CHAR: WC: Kahina
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
KAHINA
"Seeress"
(Misha)
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
9 STR -1 11- 87.5kg; 1 1/2d6
10 DEX 0 11- OCV: 3 / DCV: 3
14 CON 8 12-
10 BODY 0 11-
14 INT 4 12- PER Roll 12-
12 EGO 4 11- ECV: 4
10 PRE 0 11- PRE Attack: 2d6
10 COM 0 11-
2 PD 0 Total: 2 PD
2 ED -1 Total: 2 ED
2 SPD 0 Phases: 6, 12
5 REC 0
28 END 0
22 STUN 0
Total Characteristics Cost: 14
Movement: Running: 6" / 12"
Swimming: 2" / 4"
Cost Powers & Skills
Wildcard (Ace) Powers:
17 Visions: Clairsentience: Precognitive, 0 END, No Range (-1/2),
No Conscious Control (-2)
Background Skills:
3 Contact: The Nur 11-
0 Arabic (native)
3 English
1 KS: Politics 8-
1 KS: The Nur 8-
1 KS: Theology 8-
1 Survival 8-
1 WF: Knife
28 Total Powers & Skills Cost
42 Total Character Cost
0+ Disadvantages
15 Distinctive Features: Female in traditional Islamic society (C,
Prejudice)
Psychological Limitation:
15 Intolerance (Islamic Fundamentalist)
10 Sense of Duty to Nur al-Allah
2 Experience
42 Total Disadvantage Points
Description:
Kahina is a small Arabic woman with dark hair and eyes. She is Nur
al-Allah's sister and the wife of Sayyid. She is an ace - although she
denies this - and receives visions of the future that she believes are
sendings from Allah. These visions are cloudy and often heavily cloaked
in symbolism, allowing Nur to interpret them freely. Kahina, under the
control of Puppetman, cut Nur's throat after he took a number of members
of the WHO tour hostage. She fled Syria soon after, trying to hunt down
Puppetman, but was killed by Mackie Messer.
(Kahina created by Stephen Leigh, character sheet created by Michael
Surbrook)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: Character Generator
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:17:35 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Well, since you are so <playful sarcasm> positive and upbeat </playful
sarcasm> about it, I'll pass on what they said on the Fuzion list:
We're in the process of transferring to a new ISP, though I'm not sure if
this
is a side-effect of that. We've known for a while that our current ISP wants
to get out of the business.
We're very excited about the move, because the Hero Games web site will
undergo a "radiation accident" and gain many new powers, such as message
boards, chat, e-commerce (including direct download of Hero Plus products!)
and even online gaming. I'll announce more details in about a week or so.
Until then, please bear with us.
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin [SMTP:griffin@txdirect.net]
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 1998 9:42 PM
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: RE: Character Generator
>
> At 03:22 PM 4/30/98 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote:
> >I would like to correct myself. I said that they are down. Technically,
> >they are not down - they have been removed from DNS. They are moving to
> a
> >new ISP and doing some radical changes to the site. They will be making
> an
> >announcement about it.
> >
> >Jason Goode
>
> Radical changes. Sigh! I miss the "old" site already. Putting up the
> 'sidebar' background on the main page wasn't bad, though I didn't see that
> it really added anything to the site. A month later they'd added frames,
> which virtually never add any real function to *any* site. At least there
> was a No Frames version available. But what's next?
> ActiveX/Java/animated
> .GIFs/optimized for MSIE 4.0? One enhancement I *would* like to see:
> someone should use a spellchecker before uploading changes to the site.
>
> Damon
> expecting the worst so I'm never disappointed
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:18:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: CHAR: WC: Rosa Gambione
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
ROSA MARIA GAMBIONE
(Rosemary Muldoon)
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
9 STR -1 11- 87.5kg; 1 1/2d6
10 DEX 0 12- OCV: 3 / DCV: 3
13 CON 6 11-
11 BODY 2 11-
15 INT 5 12- PER Roll 12-
11 EGO 2 11- ECV: 4
13 PRE 3 12- PRE Attack: 2 1/2d6
14 COM 2 12-
3 PD 1 Total: 3 PD
3 ED 0 Total: 3 ED
2 SPD 0 Phases: 6, 12
5 REC 0
26 END 0
23 STUN 0
Total Characteristics Cost: 20
Movement: Running: 6" / 12"
Swimming: 2" / 4"
Cost Powers & Skills
District Attorney and Background Skills:
3 Perk: District Attorney
2 Contact: Mafia 11-
3 Acting 12-
5 AK: New York 14-
3 Bureaucratics 12-
3 Conversation 12-
3 Deduction 12-
0 English
3 High Society 12-
3 Interrogation 12-
2 Italian
3 KS: Law 12-
5 KS: Mafiosi of New York 14-
3 KS: Politics 12-
3 Persuasion 12-
2 PS: District Attorney 11-
6 SL: +2 with PRE Skills
1 Streetwise 8-
53 Total Powers & Skills Cost
73 Total Character Cost
25+ Disadvantages
Psychological Limitation:
10 Sense of Duty to the DA's office (Com)
10 Sense of Duty to her Mafia family (Com)
15 Secret ID: Member of the Mafia, head of the Gambione family
13 Experience
73 Total Disadvantage Points
Description:
Rosa is the secret head of the Gambione family, one of the more powerful
Mafia families. She is also an assistant district attorney. She become
head of the Gambiones during the 1986 Wild Card Day. Realizing that the
male-dominated mafia would never accept as woman Don, she used Christopher
Mazzuchelli as her mouthpiece, having him pass on her orders. Rosa, under
her alias of Rosemary Muldoon, tried to use her office to shield the Mafia
form attacks, but failed, as Kein Phuc and the Shadow Fists declared war
on the Mafia, slaughtering several Dons and eventually driving Rosa out of
New York. Rosa now lives in the Gambione stronghold of Cuba. Her last
act before leaving New York was to arrainge the death of Mazzuchelli, who
had tried to have her eliminated in an attempt to take over the Gambiones
himself.
(Rosa Maria Gambione created by Leanne C. Harper, character sheet created
by Michael Surbrook)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 30 Apr 1998 22:29:33 -0400
Lines: 32
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Michael Surbrook writes:
> Sure you do. Elementals that cannot be harmed by their own elements.
> Gods, or god-like beings that cannot be harmed by certain types of
> attacks. Grendel who was immune to balded weapons. Achilles, who was
> immune to *everything*. The skin of the Nemedian lion, which conferred
> total invulnerability opn Hercules. The Sait of Killers, who is immune to
> any physical force, up to and including a nuke. Lovecraftian monsters
> immune to bullets...
Most of these are good examples of SFX reduction, not necessarilly Damage
Reduction. Of the rest... deities are plot devices at that power level
(that includes the Sait of Killers). Achilles and Sigfreid had their
vulnerable spots. And Heracles was half immortal anyway, not that that did
him much good, either :).
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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Date: 30 Apr 1998 22:32:19 -0400
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David W Toomey writes:
> Having said that, you can always use any house rule you want, but paying
> 20 pts for near-perfect Mental invulnerablity seems far too cheap, even
> if you re-figure it as 0-End,Persistant, Always on for 27 pts-as 75%
> non-resistant Damage Reduction costs 40.
The reason Desolidification is so relatively cheap is specifically because
of the baggage that goes along with it. That baggage is, of course, the
fact that the character is intangible: the world cannot affect him; he
cannot affect the world.
But like you said, the ability to be intangible to mental attacks is +20
points. That means 20 points IN ADDITION to the points already invested in
Desolidification.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Character Generator
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Michael (Damon) or Peni R Griffin writes:
> But what's next? ActiveX/Java/animated .GIFs/optimized for MSIE 4.0?
Sometimes I'm glad my browser of choice is lynx on my Linux machines. :)
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: dwtoomey@juno.com, champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: Desolidification
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:34:34 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
No, there isn't.
Sakura(?) said "Desolid only vs. Mental".
In your example, the character is already desolid vs. physical & energy.
Jason Goode
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dwtoomey@juno.com [SMTP:dwtoomey@juno.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 1998 5:35 PM
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: Desolidification
>
> >
> >There /is/ no 'it costs 30 (40, whatever) points to be Desolid only
> >vs.
> >Mental' in the book
>
> Yes there is!
>
> "For a Desolid character to be immune to Mental Powers costs +20
> Character
>
> ^^^^^
> Points."
>
> David W Toomey
> dwtoomey@juno.com
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:44:28 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: RE: Character Generator
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 10:17 PM 4/30/98 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote:
>Well, since you are so <playful sarcasm> positive and upbeat </playful
>sarcasm> about it, I'll pass on what they said on the Fuzion list:
<Steve Peterson's note snipped>
Thanks, I do feel a little more positive and upbeat after reading that.
Added functionality, who wooda thot? :)
Damon
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:50:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On 30 Apr 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> > Sure you do. Elementals that cannot be harmed by their own elements.
> > Gods, or god-like beings that cannot be harmed by certain types of
> > attacks. Grendel who was immune to balded weapons. Achilles, who was
> > immune to *everything*. The skin of the Nemedian lion, which conferred
> > total invulnerability opn Hercules. The Sait of Killers, who is immune to
> > any physical force, up to and including a nuke. Lovecraftian monsters
> > immune to bullets...
>
> Most of these are good examples of SFX reduction, not necessarilly Damage
> Reduction.
So? It is still a case of 100% vs 'X' Reduction. SFX or all damage it
doesn't matter.
> Of the rest... deities are plot devices at that power level
> (that includes the Sait of Killers).
So sorry for *not* being the world's best typist your munificence. That's
*SAINT OF KILLERS*.
> Achilles and Sigfreid had their vulnerable spots.
Yes, but they were still pretty much indestrictable everywhere else. Hero
is a system taht allows one to play (and build) *anything*. Just saying
'oh, that's a plot device' smacks of high-handedness and arrogance.
> And Heracles was half immortal anyway, not that that did
> him much good, either :).
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:16:59 -0500 (CDT)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> On 30 Apr 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> > Most of these are good examples of SFX reduction, not necessarilly
> > Damage Reduction.
>
> So? It is still a case of 100% vs 'X' Reduction. SFX or all damage it
> doesn't matter.
If I understand slippery Jim correctly, he has nothing against 100% vs 'X'
Reduction in general; his worries lie specifically with 100% vs Physical,
Mental, or Energy Defense.
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 00:18:43 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Damage Reduction (was Re: Desolidification)
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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> Damage Reduction is the power to use. Say an 18 Ego and 75% Mental
Damage
> Reuction. Watch: A 12D6 mental power has a maximum effect of 60 points.
> Reduced by 75% leaves 15 points of effect, which is less than the 18 Ego.
> The power has no effect.
Which brings up the question, does Damage Reduction vs. Mental Attacks
affect non-damaging powers? I've always ruled that it doesn't (or more
accurately, I WOULD have ruled that way if anyone had ever tried to buy the
power).
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 00:18:51 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: RE: Big teams or powerful villains?
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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> You could wait for the new version of Creation Workshop that includes
that
> rules for Hero System. It has a character generator (100% random or
random
> within certain parameters), complete with background sketch. Click a
> button, out comes characters. Don't like that, click again or adjust
your
> parameters then click again. Should be out soon.
On a slightly related note, an anecdote from the early days of my campaign.
One player-to-be put off the laborious task of designing a character until
the last minute... literally. He showed up at the game, just as the rest of
us were getting comfortable, and said, "I know exactly the character I
want... hand me the random charts!"
(Historical note for relative newcomers: Champions III contained a set of
tables for randomly generating characters.)
Interestingly, the resulting character eventually became a prominent hero
in the early days of the campaign.
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:00:48 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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Bob Greenwade wrote:
> At 10:32 AM 4/30/1998 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote:
> >> 100% Damage Reduction was suggested by me, and by someone else working
> >> independently (who joined the list well after I originally gave the idea).
> >> I don't recall whether I included it on the list of suggestions for Hero5
> >> or not, but I do agree that it should be included (considering that
> >> resistant 100% physical and energy DR would cost 240 points, leaving the
> >> character scant little room for anything else).
> >Invulnerable Man!
> >
> >Invulnerable Man! is completely invulnerable to physical and energy attacks.
> >However, since he is an otherwise completely normal guy with 10 points in
> >skills (PS: Teacher, I think), villains find him more amusing than
> >threatening and his fellow heroes see no use for him except as a shield.
>
> This is something I actually did once, in a campaign where the players
> came up with the basic character and the GM (me) assigned the Powers. The
> character in question just seemed perfect for absolute invulnerability
> (with a few pesky holes in that defense, of course). He actually came to
> be quite viable, doing things like drawing enemy fire, going into severely
> hostile environments, etc.
> ---
> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
> Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Anybody read Alan Davis's ClanDestine? Ol' papa was Invulnerable and quite the
warrior to boot. He dominated one combat and that was it. Of course I quit
reading after the kids escaped to NY and encountered Spiderman so I do not know
how it turned out...
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Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:20:15 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
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Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> > ICE is 20 pts?!? Damn, have your characters piss off the local little league team
> > and you got at least 10 pts....
>
> Well, right. Some of those kids can throw pretty hard, and, well,
> I'm not all that great at dodging baseballs thrown at high rates of speed.
> Plus, I'm kinda afraid of aluminum baseball bats and all, so . . . do you
> thin I could get more powerful on that hunted? ;>
>
> -Tim Gilberg
>
> -"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
Yeah but you also don't have the EC of Fractal Energies (maybe that's Mandelbrot's
problem - dumb powers...) Besides I've seen little league and they couldn't hit you
with the balls or the bats....
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 03:47:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
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cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Zodiac scenarios
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On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> ideas I can come up with to be helpful.
> First, for early adventures I'd avoid using the full team. After all,
> there are twelve of them, and some of them are pretty darn tough. Start
> with the Special Assignment Teams described on page 26 of ZC. The earliest
> scenarios would probably involve Team Gamma, then add Beta and Alpha to the
> mix (not in the same adventure, just as things go on).
It's also sneakier to bring in a larger group a bit at a time. As well as
helping the PC's not get overwhelmed all at once. You are right, some of
them are pretty tough.
>
> Team Gamma:
> Capricorn - Is there an attractive and publicly-visible unmarried female
> among the DNPC? If not, how about an attractive PC? He might target that
> individual for courtship (short-term, of course, and probably in his Sean
> Quinlan identity). If rebuffed, he might ask to use Zodiac resources to
> win his conquest. He could also turn his attention to some magical tome or
> artifact, something a little more sure to win Taurus' approval.
Or combine the two ideas and let the PC's try to decide what he's really
after. I've always been fond of Capricorn.
> Gemini - He would, no doubt, see the Church as a threat to his plans.
> Depending on your world view, this could be specifically the Roman Catholic
> Church, the Proestant churches, those that are experiencing movements of
> power (like Brownsville Assembly of God in Pensacola or the Toronto Airport
> Assembly), those that have appreciable community influence, or any other
> criterion you like. If one of the "centers of power" for the "dangerous"
> church is near the campaign city, then Gemini could target such a place.
For that matter, Gemini could be waging a guerilla war against religions
by sponsoring and supporting the fringe cults. Such cults are a useful
source of fanatics, often enjoy some protection under 'freedom of
religion' laws, and when he needs a sacrifice for some big spell, it's
reported as just another cult mass suicide.
> Virgo - No doubt she'd like very much to squash PSI. You could let
> Zodiac Team Gamma become a mysterious complication in any PSI scenario,
> especially one in which the PCs are outclassed. Since her presence in the
> Zodiac rules out any peace with PSI, Taurus would almost certainly see them
> as a threat and approve her plans for desctruction.
Virgo might also be the best to be initially shown as a reasonably good
person. Have her come in not trying to destroy PSI, but instead as a
third party just trying to save kids from being kidnapped by PSI. Adds a
little grey to the situation.;)
> Taurus - Most of the "little" plans he comes up with should be
> unfathomable at first. He might try to "fix" an election in favor of the
> most competent candidate (or the least competent, depending on how you
> think it would affect his popularity as future world leader). More likely,
> though, he'll be the host of some kind of symposium to which an
> intellectually-oriented PC can be invited. If he is known to the PCs, he
> could even be seen heading in the direction of some well-known man of
> wisdom, only to have to explain repeatedly that he's only going there to
> talk (which is the truth).
Taurus can be fun. A reasonably well balanced leader of a villain group
who would rather talk than fight.
> Team Beta:
> Leo - After the Zodiac has been active for a while, it's probable that
> more hero groups than the PCs have been meeting them. He could lead a
> frontal strike against some team that's been particularly troublesome, with
> the aim of crippling them (at least figuratively, though literally is
> possible too). More in keeping with Team Beta's nature, they could try
> breaking into the PCs' headquarters to get their information on one of
> Zodiac's enemies.
If the PC's don't catch onto who it is right away, you can even have the
break in's repeat, with a certain Leo led rock band in town everytime.
Give the PC's something to follow up on.
> Aries - He tends to not have a lot of plans of his own, but if he could
> destroy the headquarters of World Class Wrestling it would just make his day.
For some reason I think back to a Marvel Comics Presents that had the Hulk
encounter Hulk Hogan (I don't recall if they used that name, but Marvel
owns the Hulk Hogan name, so could have). Could be alot of fun.
> Cancer - While LOK-480K is a robot and does not have plans of its own,
> it could suffer a minor breakdown, which would prompt the other Zodiac
> members to seek out replacement parts. Similarly, the PCs could be
> contacted by Orrad (of METE) to help him track down this missing LOK unit
> that recently-uncovered records indicate was last known to be in this sector.
I like this one, it would be a cool way of tying in METE.
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Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 10:22:48 +0100
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
To: Urklore The Iron <urklore@tiac.net>
CC: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: URL for Ultimate Utility Belt
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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I'm planning to host it (unless someone beat me to it!)
The URL will be ...
http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk/uub/
It's not up yet as I am still collating, but if you want to submit
PLEASE do so (all submissions will be credited to the original authors
so do include return email and URL's ) to
webmaster@lynch1.demon.co.uk
or my normal address which is
chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk
Thanks!
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Subject: RE: The usual suspects
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 08:00:23 -0400
x-sender: dfair@pop.worldweb.net
From: David Fair <dfair@sdslink.com>
To: "Hero Games" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
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>>> Kaiser Soze: needs at least two secret ID's (you don't think that lefty
>>> there was the only one, do you?) and hoards of tactics and streetwise
>>
>> You sure on the spelling? I was almost positive it was Sosek.
>>
>> I also think multiple secret IDs mixed with multiple Deep Cover
>>Perks. Add KSs about each and every little detail of the criminal world
>>at ungodly levels.
>
>I'm not 100% positive, but i'm damn close, I think it is spelled on my
>box, which is not here, but at Home.
Just checked this last night and we were both wrong!
The correct name is Keyser Soze!
David A. Fair |
SDS International | Think Different
dfair@sdslink.com |
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From: Kane476323 <Kane476323@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 08:22:29 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: V+V and justice inc for auction
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i have an auction going for these two items if anyone is intrested
justice inc boxed set high bid is 8
V+V force module high bid is 5
V+V set of three villians books all are in very worn shape with one missing
the cover bid is 10
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Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 05:37:12 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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At 09:07 PM 4/30/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Tim R Gilberg writes:
>
>> "Hack" and "Crock" carry the same connotation.
>
>Not in my book. If I meant crock I would have said crock.
The difference being...?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 05:42:14 -0700
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: More Wildcards?
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At 06:50 PM 4/30/1998 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Goode, Jason wrote:
>
>> Are these (and the rest of the Wildcards) on your site?
>
>Yes. My original 65+ adpations are at
>www.access.digex.net/~susano/wildcards.html
>
>Oh, Bob? I've switched them all over to the new format.
That should be fine in HTML. I was worried about the stuff going out by
email, and since I was apparently the only one to have a problem anyway,
I'm obviously the "odd man out," so you're right in ignoring my complaint.
(I generally prefer to grab characters off the WWW than from email anyway.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 08:36:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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On 30 Apr 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> Sakura writes:
>
> > Indeed there is. (Apparently, being able to pass through barriers is
> > about 1/3 the points you put into desolid, since you get a -1/2 limit for
> > not being able to do it.)
>
> Actually, the power in this case is Tunnelling, not limited
> Desolidification.
Of ourse, Desolid lets you pass through any DEF of material, whereas
Tunnelling has an upper limit.
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Character Generator
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 06:38:49 -0700
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How does the random character generator work? Can you ask for a random
250-point mentalist superhero? A 25+25 cab driver? Can you assign the
weights the way you like?
Dave Mattingly
Visit http://www.haymaker.org/haym03.html for Dave's random superhero
generator
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Viper ideas?
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 09:41:39 EDT
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>> If they have a new toy to work on, VIPER will undoubtably need
>> additional specialized equiptment to do whatever it is they are going
>> to do. If the Heroes can get a good idea of the type of stuf that
>> VIPER will need then they can trace any shipments of said wonky
gadgets.
>>
>This is a good twist on the stand guard at other components.
Or, what if they need to "recruit" assistance?
I can't picture VIPER pulling in local criminals (superpowered or normal)
as extra base guards unless you're running them stupid, but they could
pay a few gangs to create distractions for the heroes. If the heroes
capture a gang member, they might be able to find the VIPER agent who's
in charge of hiring the thugs and track the agent back home.
Maybe the scientist in charge of the project was in a car crash and needs
to be sprung from the hospital, or if it was a bad crash (he's paying for
his science skills with Unluck) VIPER needs to get another scientist to
finish the work. This wouldn't necessarily mean kidnapping, perhaps an
out-of-town nest would loan their scientific advisor in exchange for
money, property, or some favor. If your local nest specializes in
certain crimes, having them suddenly switch to another type of crime to
"pay" for the assistance would be a clue -- and lack of experience would
make it easier for the heroes to catch a few snakes.
Leah
_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 08:49:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Dataweaver wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> > On 30 Apr 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> > > Most of these are good examples of SFX reduction, not necessarilly
> > > Damage Reduction.
> >
> > So? It is still a case of 100% vs 'X' Reduction. SFX or all damage it
> > doesn't matter.
>
> If I understand slippery Jim correctly, he has nothing against 100% vs 'X'
> Reduction in general; his worries lie specifically with 100% vs Physical,
> Mental, or Energy Defense.
Well, why not have the base form of the power be vs
Physical/Energy/Mental, put a stop sign next to it, and then /strongly/
suggest that it have a limitation put on it, 'only vs. a certain SFX'?
Honestly, it's very possible to come up with a power concept that allows
any one of these. Mental could be, literally, the strongest will in the
universe, for example. Energy - well, energy tends to damage the body in
the same way, whether it's fire, laser, microwaves, or whatever. If your
skin isn't damaged by that, you'd have 100% Energy DR. Physical DR is
harder, as it'd include stuff like gases and such - most people would have
'only vs. kinetic energy' (probably -1/4).
Heck, I can think of a power that would give you both 100% Energy /and/
Physical DR (as well as Life Support) - the ability to adapt
instantaneously to your environment. Chucked into the heart of the sun?
You adapt. Compared to that, getting hit by Pyro's fire blast is nothing.
Subjected to crushing pressure? Your body adapts, and the crushing
pressure of a punch would trigger that, too.
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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Goode, Jason writes:
> No, there isn't.
> Sakura(?) said "Desolid only vs. Mental".
> In your example, the character is already desolid vs. physical & energy.
Because "Desolid vs. Mental" requires "Desolid vs. Physical & Energy". You
cannot have the vs. Mental component without buying the base power. It is
an add-on, not a power in and of itself.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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Sakura writes:
> Of ourse, Desolid lets you pass through any DEF of material, whereas
> Tunnelling has an upper limit.
Then Teleportation, if you do not mind the problems inherent in a blind
teleport. Or Shrinking or Shapeshift.
The point is that if going through walls is your primary goal, there is
probably a better power to use than Desolidification.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Damage Reduction (was Re: Desolidification)
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Jeff M Reid writes:
> Which brings up the question, does Damage Reduction vs. Mental Attacks
> affect non-damaging powers?
Yes, it does. Otherwise it is an incredibly expensive defensive power that
affects only one power (Ego Attack), maybe BOECV EB. Damage Reduction is a
kind of defense, and if Mental Defense applies against Telepathy and Mind
Control, Mental Damage Reduction will, too.
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net&>
Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Desolidification
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 10:49:11 -0400
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Duh.
I was clarifying to the poster that that is indeed what Sakura said.
Jason Goode
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stainless Steel Rat [SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net]
> Sent: Friday, May 01, 1998 9:53 AM
> To: Champions
> Subject: Re: Desolidification
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Goode, Jason writes:
>
> > No, there isn't.
> > Sakura(?) said "Desolid only vs. Mental".
> > In your example, the character is already desolid vs. physical & energy.
>
> Because "Desolid vs. Mental" requires "Desolid vs. Physical & Energy".
> You
> cannot have the vs. Mental component without buying the base power. It is
> an add-on, not a power in and of itself.
>
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Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 07:52:33 -0700
To: "Jeff M. Reid" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Damage Reduction (was Re: Desolidification)
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At 12:18 AM 5/1/98 -0400, you wrote:
>> Damage Reduction is the power to use. Say an 18 Ego and 75% Mental
>Damage
>> Reuction. Watch: A 12D6 mental power has a maximum effect of 60 points.
>> Reduced by 75% leaves 15 points of effect, which is less than the 18 Ego.
>> The power has no effect.
>
>Which brings up the question, does Damage Reduction vs. Mental Attacks
>affect non-damaging powers? I've always ruled that it doesn't (or more
>accurately, I WOULD have ruled that way if anyone had ever tried to buy the
>power).
Boy Id sure be peeved if I spent 60 points for something that affects maybe
1/20th of the attacks you could be affected by... if its that limited it
should cost a lot less. I consider mental DR to reduce the EFFECT of mental
abilities, of any standard mental power.
----------------------------------------------------------
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Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 10:01:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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> > Of ourse, Desolid lets you pass through any DEF of material, whereas
> > Tunnelling has an upper limit.
>
> Then Teleportation, if you do not mind the problems inherent in a blind
> teleport. Or Shrinking or Shapeshift.
>
> The point is that if going through walls is your primary goal, there is
> probably a better power to use than Desolidification.
Once again, Rat, you are way off. Desolid is _the_ power for
being able to move through solid objects, plain and simple. It contains
the least problems. Tunnelling is good, but has a much different effect.
(Notably the assumption of damaging the material moved through in some
way, though SFX could negate this.)
I'm sure 99% of Hero gamers, when asked which power should be used
to make a character who could move through walls, etc, would answer
"desolidification". Why make life harder just because Rat doesn't want to
admit that he's wrong?
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 10:02:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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> > No, there isn't.
> > Sakura(?) said "Desolid only vs. Mental".
> > In your example, the character is already desolid vs. physical & energy.
>
> Because "Desolid vs. Mental" requires "Desolid vs. Physical & Energy". You
> cannot have the vs. Mental component without buying the base power. It is
> an add-on, not a power in and of itself.
Yes, but a "limited power" limitation can easily take away the
Physical and Energy portions. We're merely haggling over effect and
price.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 11:12:04 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Zodiac scenarios
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> I've never had the opportunity to use the Zodiac, but I'll see what
ideas I can come up with to be helpful.<
Wow...if you didn't have the book with you when you did this, then you've
got way too much time to read and memorize Champs supplements. :-)
>> First, for early adventures I'd avoid using the full team. After all,
there are twelve of them, and some of them are pretty darn tough. Start
with the Special Assignment Teams described on page 26 of ZC. The earliest
scenarios would probably involve Team Gamma, then add Beta and Alpha to the
mix (not in the same adventure, just as things go on).<<
Yeah, I figured that Zodiac should be used in sub-rosters like the
described teams, but I just wanted to see if anybody threw all 12 of them
at the PCs at once.
>> Pisces - If you have Pat Bradley's Atlantis book, she can be a good
complication in one of the existing scenarios, or an attack prompted by her
could be a scenario in itself (with Sea Guard approaching the PCs for
help).<<
I just picked up Atlantis last night, along with Pyramid in the Sky. I've
just flipped through them without reading hardly any text, but I see why I
wasn't very excited about them at first...the art is much less interesting
than the usual fare. In the Atlantis book, the only character picture that
jumped out at me was Red Tide. Anyway, I'm glad that I asked about these
books on the list and found out that they are some of the best (apparantly
Atlantis IS the best), or I probably never would have picked them up. I
haven't read the book yet, but I'm starting to get excited about having
Atlantis as a recurring feature in my campaign....
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 11:35:15 -0400 (EDT)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>> The point is that if going through walls is your primary goal, there is
>> probably a better power to use than Desolidification.
>
> Once again, Rat, you are way off. Desolid is _the_ power for
>being able to move through solid objects, plain and simple.
No, I'm with the Rat on this one. Going through objects is Tunnelling. Rat's
being very specific, that's all. If you _only_ want to go through walls (and
not be ephemeral to attacks), Tunnelling is the best option.
> It contains
>the least problems. Tunnelling is good, but has a much different effect.
>(Notably the assumption of damaging the material moved through in some
>way, though SFX could negate this.)
Definitely. We can't allow ourselves to get caught up with the name -
'Tunnelling' is basically 'move through solids'. 'Desolidification' is
basically 'become insubstantial'. Walking through walls (_only_) is IMHO
closer to Tunnelling.
> I'm sure 99% of Hero gamers, when asked which power should be used
>to make a character who could move through walls, etc, would answer
>"desolidification".
There's the rub, though, the 'etcetera'. I don't think Rat is including that
etcetera. Looking at the objects table in the BBB, DEF 8 Tunnelling will get
you through almost any wall. That's 21 points, plus 10 for 2" of tunnelling
(so you can half-move), and another 10 for not leaving a hole behind. 41
points. Sure, 'Only through walls' desolid will be cheaper (probably half
the cost), but you've still got the need for Affects Solid while going
through walls. That's the reason you don't want to use Desolid; it has messy
implications.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!"
-Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins and Ron Prins
jprins@interhop.net
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Character Generator
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 12:21:09 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
(in order asked) Well. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Seriously, though, it seems to work fine. I played with it out of
curiosity, but I already have about a zillion PC's & NPC's already made up
and thus don't have much of a need for a random generator.
Jason Goode
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Mattingly [SMTP:dmattingly@platsoft.com]
> Sent: Friday, May 01, 1998 9:39 AM
> To: 'champ-l@sysabend.org'
> Subject: RE: Character Generator
>
> How does the random character generator work? Can you ask for a random
> 250-point mentalist superhero? A 25+25 cab driver? Can you assign the
> weights the way you like?
>
> Dave Mattingly
> Visit http://www.haymaker.org/haym03.html for Dave's random superhero
> generator
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Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 12:37:27 -0400
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 11:35 AM 5/1/98 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote:
>>> The point is that if going through walls is your primary goal, there is
>>> probably a better power to use than Desolidification.
>>
>> Once again, Rat, you are way off. Desolid is _the_ power for
>>being able to move through solid objects, plain and simple.
>
>No, I'm with the Rat on this one. Going through objects is Tunnelling. Rat's
>being very specific, that's all. If you _only_ want to go through walls (and
>not be ephemeral to attacks), Tunnelling is the best option.
>
>> It contains
>>the least problems. Tunnelling is good, but has a much different effect.
>>(Notably the assumption of damaging the material moved through in some
>>way, though SFX could negate this.)
>
>Definitely. We can't allow ourselves to get caught up with the name -
>'Tunnelling' is basically 'move through solids'. 'Desolidification' is
>basically 'become insubstantial'. Walking through walls (_only_) is IMHO
>closer to Tunnelling.
I would say that Tunnelling is the power for being able to go through
substances when the DEF and BODY of the substance are a consideration, and
Desolidification is the power to move through substances regardless of
their DEF and BODY.
Teleportation is still another option here, but I prefer to save t-port for
the situations where a character literally does not pass through the
intervening space (or matter): a tunneling or desolid character might still
be attacked half-way through a wall, while a teleporter can't be.
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 09:47:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
To: Bill Svitavsky <nbymail11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Bill Svitavsky writes:
> I would say that Tunnelling is the power for being able to go through
> substances when the DEF and BODY of the substance are a consideration, and
> Desolidification is the power to move through substances regardless of
> their DEF and BODY.
Hm...would anyone (but me) tolerate NND tunneling? I'd say it automatically
doesn't make a hole, but it otherwise has a certain appeal...
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From: T Random <TRandom@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 12:55:18 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Zodiac. Gotta love'm
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
The Zodiac is one of my favorite teams, so I had to comment. I introduced them
briefly, and all together, to our team, Vigilance. Basically, I took the
adventure with the M.A.V.R.I.C (a super computer trying to take over the world
and create general mayhem, for those who never heard of it), and made the
computer more powerful and influential. It was taking over viper and genocide
bases (and minutemen) sending the former occupants flooding into the streets
with no place else to go...just standing around...in uniform....in the
open....
Anyway, in the end, Zodiac shows up too late to save the master plan. I gave a
little combat taste to let the players know Zodiac's level (they didn't want a
fight at this point anyway), before having enough Vigilance allies show up to
make it not worthwhile for certain members of the Zodiac to "vent." There's
also the chance Taurus put Vigilance through this on purpose, intending them
to "win."
Now, when I use individual members of Zodiac, the players will always wonder
what the "master plan" is, when those member(s) might just be acting on their
own.
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 13:10:05 -0400
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> wrote:
>>>
Bill Svitavsky writes:
> I would say that Tunnelling is the power for being able to go through
> substances when the DEF and BODY of the substance are a consideration, and
> Desolidification is the power to move through substances regardless of
> their DEF and BODY.
Hm...would anyone (but me) tolerate NND tunneling? I'd say it automatically
doesn't make a hole, but it otherwise has a certain appeal...
<<<
If I did allow NND Tunneling, I'd say that it allowed the power to
ignore the DEF involved, but not the BODY; BODY is not, as I
interpret things, a "defense."
This would simulate a tunneling power which will go through
any ostacle, given time, but which will be slowed down by massive
objects with a lot of BODY.
The best comic book example of this power is Juggernaut.
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: jprins@interhop.net, champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: Desolidification
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 13:20:01 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
"We can't allow ourselves to get caught up with the name"
Good point. Now apply it to your own argument. "Move through solids" could
also be teleport, a good hard punch, etc.
The power that you use should be reflective of what is happening
mechanically. Tunneling, desolid, shapeshift, teleport, etc. all have
different mechanical effects. Not special effects, but mechanical effects.
Use those to determine which power *you* want to use.
Jason Goode
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jprins@interhop.net [SMTP:jprins@interhop.net]
> Sent: Friday, May 01, 1998 11:35 AM
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: Desolidification
>
>
> Definitely. We can't allow ourselves to get caught up with the name -
> 'Tunnelling' is basically 'move through solids'. 'Desolidification' is
> basically 'become insubstantial'. Walking through walls (_only_) is IMHO
> closer to Tunnelling.
>
>
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 01 May 1998 13:38:33 -0400
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Tim R Gilberg writes:
>> The point is that if going through walls is your primary goal, there is
>> probably a better power to use than Desolidification.
> Once again, Rat, you are way off.
Once again, Tim jumps down my throat without actually reading what I wrote.
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 01 May 1998 13:39:28 -0400
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Tim R Gilberg writes:
> Yes, but a "limited power" limitation can easily take away the
> Physical and Energy portions.
A power limitation cannot remove a disadvantageous aspect of a power. You
need an advantage to do that, or better yet, a different power entirely.
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 10:51:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
To: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
Cc: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
BILL SVITAVSKY writes:
> If I did allow NND Tunneling, I'd say that it allowed the power to
> ignore the DEF involved, but not the BODY; BODY is not, as I
> interpret things, a "defense."
Well, tunneling _always_ ignores BODY. Having NND tunneling suddenly notice
body would be weird. Besides, body isn't very variable anyway, it's generally
12-20 per hex regardless of material.
>
> The best comic book example of this power is Juggernaut.
Nah, I'd just give juggernaut tunneling through some high DEF, with a
limitation that he gets slower the more DEF he penetrates. Alternately, you
can just give him extra STR, only vs being stopped.
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 14:01:41 -0400
From: BILL SVITAVSKY <NBYMAIL11@mln.lib.ma.us>
To: CHAMP-L@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> wrote:
>>>
BILL SVITAVSKY writes:
> If I did allow NND Tunneling, I'd say that it allowed the power to
> ignore the DEF involved, but not the BODY; BODY is not, as I
> interpret things, a "defense."
Well, tunneling _always_ ignores BODY. Having NND tunneling suddenly notice
body would be weird. Besides, body isn't very variable anyway, it's generally
12-20 per hex regardless of material.
>
<<<
Oops. Can you tell I haven't used Tunneling for a while?
I certainly wouldn't make it suddenly pay attention to BODY -
I just misremembered the power. If I were actually building a
character like this (and I don't know if I would allow NND
Tunneling), I'd have to read the power over again.
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Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 11:07:50 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Thieves World
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I wonder if there is any interest in Sanctuary/Thieve's World Characters for FH?
Granted most of them are obscenely powerful (especially Thales before he
lost his god...) but they would be interesting :)
I really liked the first few books of that series
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 13:12:10 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Fri, 1 May 1998, BILL SVITAVSKY wrote:
> If I did allow NND Tunneling, I'd say that it allowed the power to
> ignore the DEF involved, but not the BODY; BODY is not, as I
> interpret things, a "defense."
>
> This would simulate a tunneling power which will go through
> any ostacle, given time, but which will be slowed down by massive
> objects with a lot of BODY.
Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't tunnelling completely dependant on
the DEF of the object, and the speed is determined by how many inches of
it you buy?
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
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Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 13:38:19 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:47 AM 5/1/1998 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Bill Svitavsky writes:
>> I would say that Tunnelling is the power for being able to go through
>> substances when the DEF and BODY of the substance are a consideration, and
>> Desolidification is the power to move through substances regardless of
>> their DEF and BODY.
>
>Hm...would anyone (but me) tolerate NND tunneling? I'd say it automatically
>doesn't make a hole, but it otherwise has a certain appeal...
There's already a mechanic (for +10 points) to not leave a hole behind.
Tunneling NND would go through regardless of the material's DEF, but
would be completely blocked by a particular type of material or situation
that was "reasonably common" (like plastics). If someone could come up
with a reasonable SFX for such a thing, then I'd allow it.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 13:40:17 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:20 PM 5/1/1998 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote:
>"We can't allow ourselves to get caught up with the name"
>
>Good point. Now apply it to your own argument. "Move through solids" could
>also be teleport, a good hard punch, etc.
>
>The power that you use should be reflective of what is happening
>mechanically. Tunneling, desolid, shapeshift, teleport, etc. all have
>different mechanical effects. Not special effects, but mechanical effects.
>Use those to determine which power *you* want to use.
That matches one of my princples of her construction: use the power
that most closely matches the dynamic of what's happening from the
character's perspective.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 14:04:20 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Viper ideas?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:41 AM 5/1/1998 EDT, Leah L Watts wrote:
>>This is a good twist on the stand guard at other components.
>
>Or, what if they need to "recruit" assistance?
>
>I can't picture VIPER pulling in local criminals (superpowered or normal)
>as extra base guards unless you're running them stupid, but they could
>pay a few gangs to create distractions for the heroes. If the heroes
>capture a gang member, they might be able to find the VIPER agent who's
>in charge of hiring the thugs and track the agent back home.
It doesn't seem all that stupid to me for VIPER to hire local criminals,
especially superpowered ones, as long as the specific tasks they're
assigned aren't particularly sensitive to VIPER secrets and such. The
impression I get from the VIPER sourcebook is that the advantages of the
internal supers are loyalty and a good reference; the advantages of hiring
mercenaries (which VIPER is described as doing at times) is
cost-effectiveness.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 14:33:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Bob Greenwade writes:
> There's already a mechanic (for +10 points) to not leave a hole behind.
> Tunneling NND would go through regardless of the material's DEF, but
> would be completely blocked by a particular type of material or situation
> that was "reasonably common" (like plastics). If someone could come up
> with a reasonable SFX for such a thing, then I'd allow it.
'Made of liquid': tunneling, leaves no hole, NND (defense is any 'sealed'
barrier).
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 17:52:45 -0400 (EDT)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: RE: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>"We can't allow ourselves to get caught up with the name"
>
>Good point. Now apply it to your own argument. "Move through solids" could
>also be teleport, a good hard punch, etc.
No, that's 'bypass object' and 'destroy object', respectively.
>The power that you use should be reflective of what is happening
>mechanically. Tunneling, desolid, shapeshift, teleport, etc. all have
>different mechanical effects. Not special effects, but mechanical effects.
>Use those to determine which power *you* want to use.
Perhaps, but I'd rather see a baseline power used (Tunneling, Closed Hole)
than some strange power kludge (Desolid, Only for going through walls). Most
special effects IMHO would not justify Desolid mechanics.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!"
-Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins and Ron Prins
jprins@interhop.net
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 16:54:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> > Yes, but a "limited power" limitation can easily take away the
> > Physical and Energy portions.
>
> A power limitation cannot remove a disadvantageous aspect of a power. You
> need an advantage to do that, or better yet, a different power entirely.
Bullsh*t. See Charges and Focus.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 17:11:36 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions Listserv <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> 'Made of liquid': tunneling, leaves no hole, NND (defense is any 'sealed'
> barrier).
This really isn't bad. This gets around the problem tunneling has
of having problems with the def value of an object.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 15:55:56 -0700
To: Anthony Jackson <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 02:33 PM 5/1/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Bob Greenwade writes:
>> There's already a mechanic (for +10 points) to not leave a hole behind.
>> Tunneling NND would go through regardless of the material's DEF, but
>> would be completely blocked by a particular type of material or situation
>> that was "reasonably common" (like plastics). If someone could come up
>> with a reasonable SFX for such a thing, then I'd allow it.
>
>'Made of liquid': tunneling, leaves no hole, NND (defense is any 'sealed'
>barrier).
Id have to call that desolid... tunnelling allows you to bring freinds
along, and close the hole after them.
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
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Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 16:10:05 -0700
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Writing Help!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
For anyone who might be interested, I have now uploaded a page on my
website (or will very soon) which describes any needs for help with
projects on which I am currently working. My main needs right now are
contact with one-time Hero authors (something already covered on this list)
and translations of certain foreign words, though this will change
periodically. The URL for the page is:
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/writing.htm
Thank you very much. :-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
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Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 10:13:49 +1000 (EST)
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 06:17 PM 4/30/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> Yes, even keeping in mind the nigh-obscene cost, because it really is not a
>> matter of cost. It is a matter of concept. You simply do not see
>> characters like this in fiction outside of plot devices and the occasional
>> parody. Plot devices have no point cost. And as for parodies, there are
>> better systems out there for that.
>
> Eh? Rat, just because you can't think of a character concept for
>it does not make it invalid.
>
>> At the very least, playing a character that cannot be harmed by anything is
>> boring.
>
> Your opinion. I think playing a character near perfect in one
>area and lacking in others can be quite interesting.
>
>
THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES IN CHAMPIONS!
deal with it.
you can have someone virtually indesructable, just buy heaps
of defence. as in pd, ed or md.
>
> -Tim Gilberg
>
> -"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
>
>
>
"enslve humanity willya?"
Core Alpha PBEM http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/3306/Pbem.htm
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Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 10:26:00 +1000 (EST)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 07:24 PM 4/30/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On 30 Apr 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>> At the very least, playing a character that cannot be harmed by anything is
>> boring.
>
>Well, even at 360 points (100% DR vs Physical, Energy, and Mental) you're
>not completely invulnerable. An entangle (or a grab!) will still take you
>out of the action as easily as the next guy. Transforms will still work
>on you, as will Drains, Transfers, and other Adjustment Powers. (And what
>happens when someone Drains your Damage Reduction? Your formerly
>invulnerable character has to deal with Deep Hurting...)
>
Why not spend 360 pts on normal defences? sure you can't surf on the surface
of the sun, but the gm should allow such plot-concepts for so may points spent.
Frankly, 100% dr is a dumb idea. It defeats the prupose of the game and ignores
the nature of damage. for fire resistance Just buy wopping limited ed and chalk
any damage up to a shockwave effect.
>More mundanely, things like suffocation or drowning would still work
>(unless you purchased Life Support).
>
>Also, in any campaign, if you've spent 360 points on defense, you're going
>to be seriously lacking in some areas in comparison to the other
>characters. ('Yeah, we can all level mountains, fly at hyperlight speed,
>and create life from basic elements. Except for him. He can't do anything
>except not be hurt.')
>
>The only way I can see that this character would be boring is if the
>player and the GM were both seriously lacking in imagination - if the
>campaign centered around fighting, for example, and nobody was clever
>enough to find a way to deal with this character.
>
you have to be seriously lacking in imagination to need a 100% dr to
role-play an invincible character. This is the same problem many people
have with hero- some folks need the mechanics to back up their rp actions,
in a way which isn't really nesecary.
>For that matter, I think complete invulnerability would be interesting to
>explore in a role-playing sense. How does it affect the character's
>attitude towards life? Are there any side effects to the power? (just
>hope the character never needs surgery...) What happens when he loses it
>temporarily? (see the Drain comment, above)
>
um, this is just as valid to say about *assumed* inviunverability,
with the added bnous that eventually you *will* be hurt. It's better rp
to define your character as invunverable and not need this sort of chessy
munch-fest to back you up.
>The concept is only boring if you work to make it so...
>
no, the concet is only valid if you think being mortal is boring.
The point of HERO mechanics is the *assumed* reality of the effects.
Hence if you call a power 'invunerable', and the gm agrees, it is.
>J
>
>"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
> To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
>
>
>
"enslve humanity willya?"
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Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 10:30:29 +1000 (EST)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 10:32 PM 4/30/98 -0400, you wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>David W Toomey writes:
>
>> Having said that, you can always use any house rule you want, but paying
>> 20 pts for near-perfect Mental invulnerablity seems far too cheap, even
>> if you re-figure it as 0-End,Persistant, Always on for 27 pts-as 75%
>> non-resistant Damage Reduction costs 40.
>
>The reason Desolidification is so relatively cheap is specifically because
>of the baggage that goes along with it. That baggage is, of course, the
>fact that the character is intangible: the world cannot affect him; he
>cannot affect the world.
>
>But like you said, the ability to be intangible to mental attacks is +20
>points. That means 20 points IN ADDITION to the points already invested in
>Desolidification.
>
yup, that's what i said. hey- if you brought desolid only vs menatal,
wouldn't you still be unable to do physical attacks? otherwise the
limmtation would also
be advantageous.. .or did somebody already say this?
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use
>Charset: noconv
>
>iQCVAwUBNUk0Mp6VRH7BJMxHAQFb7wP9GhYBlkF75ToJsczsPOed3l2LgzTcuoUA
>46UyBIf/eHbyKum8zNS4m3xvzmygTVVYs6KfVAERVH8Rz+lat/4AbrPADmpXTp8k
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>=KUki
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>--
>Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
>PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
> \ Earth, presumably from outer space.
>
>
"enslve humanity willya?"
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Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 17:55:51 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 02:33 PM 5/1/1998 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Bob Greenwade writes:
>> There's already a mechanic (for +10 points) to not leave a hole behind.
>> Tunneling NND would go through regardless of the material's DEF, but
>> would be completely blocked by a particular type of material or situation
>> that was "reasonably common" (like plastics). If someone could come up
>> with a reasonable SFX for such a thing, then I'd allow it.
>
>'Made of liquid': tunneling, leaves no hole, NND (defense is any 'sealed'
>barrier).
Works for me (though I might argue for a rendition of Desolidification
for it).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 21:18:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: CHAR: WC: Nur al-Allah
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
NUR AL-ALLAH
"Light of Allah"
(Najib)
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
13 STR 3 12- 150kg; 2 1/2d6
14 DEX 12 12- OCV: 5 / DCV: 5
20 CON 20 13-
15 BODY 10 12-
18 INT 8 13- PER Roll 13-
20 EGO 20 13- ECV: 7
25 PRE 20 14- PRE Attack: 5d6
16 COM 3 12-
4 PD 1 Total: 4 PD
4 ED 0 Total: 4 ED
3 SPD 6 Phases: 4, 8, 12
7 REC 0
40 END 0
32 STUN 0
Total Characteristics Cost: 103
Movement: Running: 6" / 12"
Swimming: 2" / 4"
Cost Powers & Skills
Combat Training:
3 Combat Skill Levels: +1 with Block, Dodge, Punch
Wildcard (Ace) Powers:
25 Compelling Voice: Oratory 25-
Background Skills:
5 Money: Well-Off
1 Perk: Priest
6 Contact: The Nur 14-
0 Arabic (native)
4 English
2 KS: Politics 11-
3 KS: The Nur 13-
4 KS: Theology 14-
4 SC: Psychology 14-
2 PS: Priest 11-
9 Survival (Desert) 14-
2 WF: Small Arms
70 Total Powers & Skills Cost
173 Total Character Cost
100+ Disadvantages
10 Distinctive Features: Glows green, especially when speaking
10 Hunted: Twisted Fists (As Pow) 8-
20 Normal Characteristic Maxima
Psychological Limitation:
10 Bad Temper
15 Hates Jews and Jokers
20 Meglomania (VC, S)
5 (15) Stubborn
15 Reputation: Leader of the Nur and a terrorist (Ext) 11-
173 Total Disadvantage Points
Description:
Nur al-Allah is the leader of the Nur al-Allah fundamentalist Islamic
sect. This sect preaches that jokers are abominations that should be
wiped clean from the face of the Earth. Nur himself is an ace, his skin
glows bright green (the sacred color of Allah) and his voice is
hypnotically compelling, allowing him to sway crowds to believe his
fanatical views.
Nur is based in Syria, although he desires to rule all of the Middle East.
His main aims are the destruction of Israel and the elimination of all
jokers. After Misha, his sister, cut his vocal cords, Nur's ace powers
were effectively destroyed, although he still remained in command of the
Nur sect.
(Nur al-Allah created by Stephen Leigh, character sheet created by Michael
Surbrook)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 21:21:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: CHAR: WC: Quinn the Eskimo
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
QUINN THE ESKIMO
(Doctor Thomas Quincy)
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
10 STR 0 11- 100kg; 2d6
8 DEX -6 11- OCV: 3 / DCV: 3
8 CON -4 11-
8 BODY -4 11-
25 INT 20 14- PER Roll 14-
10 EGO 0 11- ECV: 3
10 PRE 0 11- PRE Attack: 2d6
10 COM 0 11-
2 PD 0 Total: 2 PD
2 ED 0 Total: 2 ED
2 SPD 0 Phases: 6, 12
4 REC 0
16 END 0
17 STUN 0
Total Characteristics Cost: 6
Movement: Running: 6" / 12"
Swimming: 2" / 4"
Cost Powers & Skills
Wildcard (Ace) Powers:
37 Drug Haze: Mental Illusions: 20d6, 0 END (+1/2), Based on
CON (-1/2), No Range (-1/2), No Control Over Illusions (-1), Must
Touch Bare Skin (-1)
10 Enhanced Senses: Enhanced Perception: +5 with smell/taste group
Background Skills:
6 Contact: Shadow Fists 14-
1 Perk Doctor
0 English (native)
3 French
3 German
3 KS: Recreational Pharmacology 14-
2 KS: Shadow Fist Society 11-
2 PS: Teacher 11-
3 SC: Biochemistry 14-
3 SC: Chemistry 14-
3 SC: Posions (Toxicology) 14-
1 Streetwise 8-
77 Total Powers & Skills Cost
83 Total Character Cost
0+ Disadvantages
Physical Limitation:
20 Drug Addict
5 (15) Suffers from random drug side effects
Psychological Limitation:
20 Drug Addict
5 (10) Paranoia
0 (15) Suffers from random drug side effects
13 Watched: Shadow Fists (MoPow, NCI) 11-
20 Experience
73 Total Disadvantage Points
Description:
Quinn is 6'1" and a lean 165 lbs. He is an ace, with a wildcard enhanced
mind, enhanced senses, and a bloodstream boiling with all manner of
psychoative drugs. Quinn can extend bone needles from his fingertips,
allow him to inject his blood into someone else and pass on the effects of
whatever chemicals are currently kicking about in his bloodstream.
It should be noted that Quinn himself is not immune to the effects of the
drugs in his bloodstream. He is always stoned to some degree or another,
and his mental state can range from depression to euphoria. People under
the influence of his 'drug-haze' will see random hallucinations for about
an hour, at which time the drug effects will have worn off.
(Quinn the Eskimo created by John J Miller, character sheet created by
Michael Surbrook)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 21:22:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: CHAR: WC: Sayyid
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
SAYYID
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
20 STR 0 13- 400kg; 4d6
5 DEX -15 10- OCV: 2 / DCV: 1
21 CON 24 13-
16 BODY 8 12-
20 INT 10 13- PER Roll 13-
13 EGO 6 12- ECV: 4
18 PRE 8 13- PRE Attack: 3 1/2d6
16 COM 3 12-
8 PD 6 Total: 8 PD
8 ED 4 Total: 8 ED
2 SPD 5 Phases: 6, 12
6 REC 0
42 END 0
33 STUN 0
Total Characteristics Cost: 57
Movement: Running: 3" / 6"
Swimming: 2" / 4"
Cost Powers & Skills
Wildcard (Joker) Powers:
13 Great Height: Growth: 2 Levels, 0 END (+1/2), Persistant (+1/2),
Always On (-1/2)
+10 STR, +2 BODY & STUN, -1 DCV, +1 PER, -2" KB, 10' tall, 400 KG
-6 Weak Limbs: -3" Running (Total 6"), END 1
Background Skills:
3 Perk: Military Rank (Commander of Nur al-Allah's armed forces)
6 Contact: The Nur 14-
6 AK: The Middle East 16-
0 Arabic (native)
3 English
4 KS: Military/Mercenary/Terrorist World 14-
4 KS: Israeli Army 14-
3 Oratory 13-
3 SC: Psychology 13-
9 Survival: Desert 14-
5 Tactics 14-
5 WF: HMGs, Man-guided Missiles, Rocket Launchers, Small Arms
58 Total Powers & Skills Cost
115 Total Character Cost
50+ Disadvantages
15 Distinctive Features: Great size and well muscled (NC)
10 Hunted: Twisted Fists (As Pow) 8-
20 Physical Limitation: Giant size, virtually lame
Psychological Limitation:
10 Bad Temper
15 Hates Jews and Jokers
115 Total Disadvantage Points
Description:
Sayyid is a joker masquerading as an ace. He is the commander of the
Nur's armed forces and utterly loyal to Nur al-Allah. He is a huge man,
standing a full ten feet tall, handsome and muscled like a god. He is
also a virtual cripple, with legs barely able to support his weight. He
can only move very slowly and must careful position himself for any public
appearances. Sayyid does possess a cunning mind, and has regularly
defeated larger and better-armed Israeli military forces.
(Sayyid created by Stephen Leigh, character sheet created by Michael
Surbrook)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 21:25:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: CHAR: WC: Sui Mai
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
SUI MAI
(Little Mother)
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
8 STR -2 11- 75kg; 1 1/2d6
10 DEX 0 11- OCV: 3 / DCV: 3
11 CON 2 11-
10 BODY 0 11-
20 INT 10 13- PER Roll 13-
21 EGO 24 13- ECV: 7
15 PRE 5 12- PRE Attack: 3d6
10 COM 0 11-
2 PD 0 Total: 2 PD
2 ED 0 Total: 2 ED
2 SPD 0 Phases: 6, 12
4 REC 0
22 END 0
20 STUN 0
Total Characteristics Cost: 39
Movement: Running: 6" / 12"
Swimming: 2" / 4"
Cost Powers & Skills
Background Skills:
10 Money: Wealthy
6 Contact: Kein Phuc 14-
4 AK: Chinatown 14-
2 AK: New York 11-
3 Bureaucratics 12-
0 Cantonese (native)
3 Conversation 12-
3 French
3 English
3 Interrogation 12-
3 KS: Immaculate Egrets 13-
2 KS: New York Underworld 11-
3 KS: Shadow Fist Society 13-
3 Persuasion 12-
6 SL: +2 with PRE Skills
3 Streetwise 12-
57 Total Powers & Skills Cost
96 Total Character Cost
50+ Disadvantages
Psychological Limitation:
20 Loyal to Kein Phuc
5 (5) Greedy
10 Watched: Shadowfist Society (MoPow) 11-
11 Experience
96 Total Disadvantage Points
Description:
Sui Mai is a small, plump, Asian woman. She is Kien Phuc's sister and the
head of the Immaculate Egrets. Sui Mai came to America in 1968, to marry
Nathan Chow, than the head of the Egrets. He died in 1971, and she took
over control of the Egrets at that point, setting up the power base upon
which Kien Phuc built his Shadow Fists.
(Sui Mai created by, character sheet created by Michael Surbrook)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 21:27:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: CHAR: WC: Judas
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
JUDAS
(Officer Harry Matthias)
Val CHA Cost Roll Notes
13 STR 3 12- 150kg; 2 1/2d6
12 DEX 6 11- OCV: 4 / DCV: 4
13 CON 6 12-
12 BODY 4 11-
10 INT 0 11- PER Roll 11-
10 EGO 0 11- ECV: 3
13 PRE 3 12- PRE Attack: 2 1/2d6
10 COM 0 11-
3 PD 0 Total: 3 PD
3 ED 0 Total: 3 ED
3 SPD 8 Phases: 4, 8, 12
6 REC 0
26 END 0
26 STUN 0
Total Characteristics Cost: 30
Movement: Running: 6" / 12"
Swimming: 2" / 4"
Cost Powers & Skills
Combat Training:
3 Combat Skill Levels: +1 with Block, Dodge, Punch
Wildcard (Ace) Powers:
24 Ace Sense: Detect: Ace Powers, Sense, Discriminatory 18-
Police and Background Skills:
2 Perk: Local Police Powers
2 Perk: Weapon Permit
2 Contact: The Astronomer 11-
3 Acting 12-
2 AK: Jokertown 11-
3 Bureacratics 12-
1 Criminology 8-
5 Deduction 12-
2 KS: Criminal Law & Procedure 11-
2 PS: Police Officer 11-
1 Streetwise 8-
3 WF: Nightstick, Small Arms
55 Total Powers & Skills Cost
85 Total Character Cost
25+ Disadvantages
3 Package Bonus: Police
10 Psychological Limitation: Loyal to the Astronomer
15 Secret ID: Agent of the Astronomer
10 Watched: NYPD (MoPow, NCI) 8-
22 Experience
85 Total Disadvantage Points
Description:
Harry Matthias, aka 'Judas' was another of the Astronomer's tools. An ace
who could detect the presence of other aces, he was used to find and
kidnap possible recruits for the Masons. He was also a police officer, a
fact that aided the Astronomer greatly.
(Harry Matthias created by, character sheet created by Michael Surbrook)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 01 May 1998 21:31:23 -0400
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Tim R Gilberg writes:
>> 'Made of liquid': tunneling, leaves no hole, NND (defense is any 'sealed'
>> barrier).
> This really isn't bad. This gets around the problem tunneling has
> of having problems with the def value of an object.
And if Armor Piercing is valid on Tunnelling, I cannot object to other
advantages that are normally used for attacks.
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 21:33:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: CHAR: Characters...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Well, that's it for the rest of the characters from GURPS Wildcards.
I've been working on the major (and minor) characters from Watchmen, using
several DC Heroes modules as a guide. I've finished the world
introduction and the Minutemen (Cpt. Metropolis, Dollar Bill, Hooded
Justice, Mothman, Nite Owl, Silhoutte and Silk Spectre). I'm also working
on Moloch, Comedian, Dr. Manhattan, Nite Owl II, Ozymandias, Rorschach and
Silk Spectre II.
The Minutemen are all between 65 and 150 points, while Moloch is 160.
Comedian (who is 95% done) totals at 375, while Dr. Manhattan is a
whopping 1098! The rest are just notes right now.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 01 May 1998 21:35:22 -0400
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Tim R Gilberg writes:
>> A power limitation cannot remove a disadvantageous aspect of a power. You
>> need an advantage to do that, or better yet, a different power entirely.
> Bullsh*t. See Charges and Focus.
Show me where either of these remove a disadvantageous aspect of a power
without replacing it with something equally or more disadvantageous.
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From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Viper ideas?
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:49:42 -2800 (EDT)
Organization: VTSFFC
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Another way to track Viper bases is by locating and trailing an
agent or Viper affiliate. For instance, the easiest way to acquire
parts/technology for Killer Death Sats (tm) is to have an inside man
at the company/military base the stuff was acquired from. If the PC's
realize this, they could perhaps find this person and tail him.
Another classic method is when they realize that the family of
Dr. RocketScientist has taken a sudden 'vacation', and the good Doctor
is looking awfully anxious these days.....
Daniel Pawtowski
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 20:53:15 -0500
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Rat writes:
>>> 'Made of liquid': tunneling, leaves no hole, NND (defense is any 'sealed'
>>> barrier).
>
>> This really isn't bad. This gets around the problem tunneling has
>> of having problems with the def value of an object.
>
>And if Armor Piercing is valid on Tunnelling, I cannot object to other
>advantages that are normally used for attacks.
Well, except perhaps that, with tunneling, you're moving your body
through a substance or barrier, and NND attacks don't do BODY... :)
Donald
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Damage Reduction (was Re: Desolidification)
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Date: 01 May 1998 21:58:34 -0400
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Rick Holding writes:
> Why 60 points? You sure as hell don't need to buy ego defense as
> resistant. You should only need to have to buy the 40 point nonresistant
> version.
Assuming something like Mental Illusions manages to roll sufficiently high
to do Body damage, non-resistant Mental Damage Reduction will do squat
against the Body damage done by the illusion of a slug from a .45 hitting
you sqare in the face.
Non-resistant Mental Damage Reduction will also have no effect against a
killing attack with BOECV.
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 21:04:42 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES IN CHAMPIONS!
Your opinion. While you may decide that this works for your
4-color game, I may decide that an absolute defense is exactly what I need
for my Fantasy Hero game, or my 4-color game. This is the type of thing
that needlessly limits the system.
> deal with it.
Why? I choose not to go by it as it is a rule-of-thumb that tends
to make the game less playable.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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Date: 01 May 1998 22:09:49 -0400
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Rick Holding writes:
> Going through a wall and leaving an obvious path (an open space or
> a pile of rubble blocking the path) means tunnelling.
Go read Tunnelling... leaving a hole or closing it behind you must be
specified when the poower is purchased. Either option is "free" but you
only get one.
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 21:10:46 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> >> A power limitation cannot remove a disadvantageous aspect of a power. You
> >> need an advantage to do that, or better yet, a different power entirely.
>
> > Bullsh*t. See Charges and Focus.
>
> Show me where either of these remove a disadvantageous aspect of a power
> without replacing it with something equally or more disadvantageous.
Show me where allowing desolid with the mental attacks addition,
then with a limitation "only vs mental damage", which allows physical and
energy attacks to be made by the character without "affects physical
world" doesn't add something equally or more disadvantageous (quite
vulnerable to mental and physical) in exchange for added ability (can
affect physical with those two.)
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Mail-Copies-To: never
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Date: 01 May 1998 22:13:29 -0400
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Donald Tsang writes:
> Well, except perhaps that, with tunneling, you're moving your body
> through a substance or barrier, and NND attacks don't do BODY... :)
Technically speaking, neither do Tunnelling or Teleportation.
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 22:19:11 -0400 (EDT)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Nur al-Allah
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>NUR AL-ALLAH
>"Light of Allah"
>Wildcard (Ace) Powers:
>25 Compelling Voice: Oratory 25-
>
>100+ Disadvantages
>10 Distinctive Features: Glows green, especially when speaking
>wiped clean from the face of the Earth. Nur himself is an ace, his skin
>glows bright green (the sacred color of Allah) and his voice is
>hypnotically compelling, allowing him to sway crowds to believe his
>fanatical views.
Uh, Mike, if green is the color of Allah, this shouldn't be a disadvantage,
but a Change Environment, should it not? I mean, if I was an Islamic priest
and I glowed the color of Allah, I'd consider it to be useful, neh? Should
really be a Change Environment AND a Distinctive Feature, I guess...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!"
-Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins and Ron Prins
jprins@interhop.net
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 21:33:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sat, 2 May 1998, happyelf wrote:
> At 07:24 PM 4/30/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >On 30 Apr 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >
> >> At the very least, playing a character that cannot be harmed by anything is
> >> boring.
> >
> >Well, even at 360 points (100% DR vs Physical, Energy, and Mental) you're
> >not completely invulnerable.
>
> Why not spend 360 pts on normal defences?
Hmm...let's see...because the character concept is 'invulnerable to X' not
'incredibly resistant to X'?
> sure you can't surf on the surface
> of the sun, but the gm should allow such plot-concepts for so may points spent.
> Frankly, 100% dr is a dumb idea. It defeats the prupose of the game
The purpose of the game is to have fun, right? Are you claiming that by
allowing someone to have invulnerability to something, the game suddenly
becomes not fun? Or do your games have a different purpose?
> and ignores
> the nature of damage.
'Ignores the nature of damage'? How so?
> for fire resistance Just buy wopping limited ed and chalk
> any damage up to a shockwave effect.
Again, defeating the purpose of being /invulnerable/ to something.
Someone who is /invulnerable/ to energy damage is, well, very different
from someone who has 80 points of resistant ED. Heck, someone with a 15d6
EB could (on a lucky roll, mind you) do damage to someone with an 80 ED.
Someone who is invulnerable to energy damage should be able to stand in
the way of the Death Star planet-destroying laser and not get hurt at all
- and that laser is a lot more than a 15d6 EB or even a 15d6 RKA.
(Of course, if the GM is just going to say 'Well, you spend this many
points on ED, you can shrug off any ED attacks' then how is it different
from 100% energy DR? Personally, I think having a mechanical effect for
it rather than relying on the GM making it a 'plot point' is far less
cheezy.)
> >The only way I can see that this character would be boring is if the
> >player and the GM were both seriously lacking in imagination - if the
> >campaign centered around fighting, for example, and nobody was clever
> >enough to find a way to deal with this character.
>
> you have to be seriously lacking in imagination to need a 100% dr to
> role-play an invincible character. This is the same problem many people
> have with hero- some folks need the mechanics to back up their rp actions,
> in a way which isn't really nesecary.
Go back to the Death Star laser. Character A has 100% Energy Damage
Reduction. Character B has 80 points of Resistant ED. The Death Star is
about to fire.
Player A thinks, 'My character is invulnerably to energy - he'll stand in
front of the cannon and stop the beam from hitting the planet.'
Player B thinks, 'My character is really resistant to energy...but that's
an awful big cannon...it might get through...I wonder if the GM is feeling
nice?...maybe I better not risk it...I think I'll fly up and try to
disable the laser before it fires.'
I think that the mechanics do need to back up the power as much as
possible.
> >For that matter, I think complete invulnerability would be interesting to
> >explore in a role-playing sense. How does it affect the character's
> >attitude towards life? Are there any side effects to the power? (just
> >hope the character never needs surgery...) What happens when he loses it
> >temporarily? (see the Drain comment, above)
>
> um, this is just as valid to say about *assumed* inviunverability,
> with the added bnous that eventually you *will* be hurt.
And this is an 'added bonus' how? I'd say it's anything /but/ a bonus,
because it defeats the character concept. "I'm invulnerable! Except for
being hit by subway trains and very large beam weapons. But other than
that, I'm invulnerable."
> It's better rp
> to define your character as invunverable and not need this sort of chessy
> munch-fest to back you up.
So you're saying that writing down '80 rED' on my character sheet instead
of '100% rEDR' will somehow make me a better roleplayer? You know, I've
heard of lots of hints for being a better roleplayer, but most of them
involved things like characterization and background. Sorry, but I don't
buy it.
> >The concept is only boring if you work to make it so...
>
> no, the concet is only valid if you think being mortal is boring.
The same could be said of any superhero concept, then. It's only valid if
you think being non-powered is boring - which, of course, is a load of
complete hooey.
Please note that at no point did I ever say 'mortal is boring' - I merely
said 'invulnerable /isn't/ boring', in response to Rat's claim that it
was.
> The point of HERO mechanics is the *assumed* reality of the effects.
> Hence if you call a power 'invunerable', and the gm agrees, it is.
So, again, if the GM decides to treat it as 'Invulnerable' - i.e. 'you
will never be hurt by energy' - how is it different from being 100% Damage
Reduction - besides the fact that it relies on GM Fiat and not on
mechanics?
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
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Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 12:38:54 +1000 (EST)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:04 PM 5/1/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES IN CHAMPIONS!
>
> Your opinion. While you may decide that this works for your
>4-color game, I may decide that an absolute defense is exactly what I need
>for my Fantasy Hero game, or my 4-color game. This is the type of thing
>that needlessly limits the system.
>
Why would you need such a mechanic in fantasy anyway? the damage values
are lower, yes? in heroic-lever fantasy game, 75% rpdr and 20 rpd IS
virtually invunerable. It is not valid to state that a power should be
created just becasue certain people can't wrap their head around the
idea of 'special effect'. In a four-color game, buy 40 points of
resistant defence, 75%rdr, and some stun and body, and wing the rest on
things like missle defelction. This is more valid than 'does X infinitly',
which makes a mockey of almost any point-based system.
All gm's must limit the powers
as they may, but i should not have to limit a power this way(ie just not
allow the 100% option in my games) becasue someone misses the point of the
mechanics.
I repeat, a set of powers that give high defence CAN BE defined as
indesructable. I't
just a a matter of concentrating on the special effect instead of fixating
on the powers
in a way which damages the basis of the system.
>> deal with it.
>
> Why? I choose not to go by it as it is a rule-of-thumb that tends
>to make the game less playable.
>
>
Less playable how? The mechanics deal with character concepts,
not plot devices, and not freeform game-play. If you decide
something is indestructable it is, such concepts are outside
the bounds of the character creation rules for a REASON.
> -Tim Gilberg
>
> -"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
>
>
>
"enslve humanity willya?"
Core Alpha PBEM http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/3306/Pbem.htm
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 21:39:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Reply-To: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On 1 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> Rick Holding writes:
>
> > Going through a wall and leaving an obvious path (an open space or
> > a pile of rubble blocking the path) means tunnelling.
>
> Go read Tunnelling... leaving a hole or closing it behind you must be
> specified when the poower is purchased. Either option is "free" but you
> only get one.
Lets see...do you mean the bit where it says 'The tunnel is normally left
open behind the character. If a character wishes to be able to fill in
the tunnel behind himself, the cost is +10 points.'?
Not only is the 'fill in the tunnel' not free, but if you do buy it, you
have the option of using it or not using it as you see fit.
Looks like Rick isn't the one that needs to go read Tunnelling.
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 21:45:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Nur al-Allah
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Fri, 1 May 1998, John and Ron Prins wrote:
> >100+ Disadvantages
> >10 Distinctive Features: Glows green, especially when speaking
>
> Uh, Mike, if green is the color of Allah, this shouldn't be a disadvantage,
> but a Change Environment, should it not? I mean, if I was an Islamic priest
> and I glowed the color of Allah, I'd consider it to be useful, neh? Should
> really be a Change Environment AND a Distinctive Feature, I guess...
Actually, I'd just call it circumstances making a disadvantage useful -
similar to how a Reputation can aid a Presence Attack, even though it's
technically a disadvantage.
Now if he glowed green brightly enough to see by, that might be another
story.
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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Date: 01 May 1998 22:59:43 -0400
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Tim R Gilberg writes:
> Show me where allowing desolid with the mental attacks addition,
> then with a limitation "only vs mental damage", which allows physical and
> energy attacks to be made by the character without "affects physical
> world" doesn't add something equally or more disadvantageous (quite
> vulnerable to mental and physical) in exchange for added ability (can
> affect physical with those two.)
You are adding an ability (roughly your words) to Desolidification
(actually fundamentally changing how Desolidification works), not
exchanging one inherent disadvantage for another.
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 23:00:48 -0400 (EDT)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>> No, I'm with the Rat on this one. Going through objects is Tunnelling. Rat's
>> being very specific, that's all. If you _only_ want to go through walls (and
>> not be ephemeral to attacks), Tunnelling is the best option.
>
> Going through a wall and leaving an obvious path (an open space or a
>pile of rubble blocking the path) means tunnelling. Tunnelling with invisible
>power effects, depending on interpritation may either conceal your tunnel
or HOW
>you tunnel. Going through a wall without leaving obvious signs or adversely
>affecting the wall means desolidification or perhaps a form of teleport like a
>friend of mine has for one of his characters. He was doing part of it wrong,
>but the idea was sound.
What about this power: Joe Hole opens holes in walls - functionally making
part of the wall 'disappear' into another dimension. Joe Hole steps through,
then brings the part back. Joe Hole _has_ to bring the part back, he can't
leave it in limbo.
Now, this power is NOT invisible. There's a hole. There might by shiny,
noisy accompanying SFX. But once the bit is back, the wall is seamless and
undamaged.
This is an example of Tunnelling that does NOT leave any visible sign
afterwards, only during. It does not damage the wall. It is patently not
Desolid or Teleport. It should not require any advantages or limitations,
just baseline tunneling with the option to close the hole. (maybe a small
limitation that he must eventually close the hole, but that's really minor).
My point? Tunnelling does not _necessarily_ damage the surface being
tunnelled through. It's assumed, but that's all it is; an assumption.
>> points. Sure, 'Only through walls' desolid will be cheaper (probably half
>> the cost), but you've still got the need for Affects Solid while going
>> through walls. That's the reason you don't want to use Desolid; it has messy
>> implications.
>
> What implications? If you are moving through a solid, there is bugger
>all there to attack.
Well, first off, when desolid you can't make an attack without Affects Solid
advantage. So you can't just stick an arm out of a wall and attack. A
tunnelling character could. An arm or hand is a small target, making the
tunnelling energy projector kinda nasty. But the Desolid one has to give up
desolid to attack, or buy hideously expensive Affects Solid powers.
Second, desolid characters by default 'look hazy' when using the power, so
if you step out of a wall, everyone knows you've got Desolid (and cracks out
the Affects Desolid EBs :-).
>If you find a hole in whatever you are moving through,
>then you are no longer desolid and hence don't need to buy affects solid on
>anything. As for the +10 points for not leaving a hole behind, there is
still >a clear idea that something happened.
Says who? That's entirely SFX dependant. Someone who magically 'displaces'
matter and it 'rebounds' to original shape would have non-traceable
Tunnelling; the use of the power would still be Visible, just not the
effects - can you easily tell that Joe Guard was knocked out by a light
based NND EB?
> I built a character based on the Ulgo's out of the David Eddings series
>of books who had the ability to walk through stone and dirt (only). Once I
>explained to the GM that it couldn't be used as a defence in open air, he
gave a
>-3/4 limitation. He liked the effect and I was relatively happy with the size
>of the limitation. Oh, yea. And I could take one other person with me. I
had
>to buy the life support to be able to "breath" rock and that also had to be
able
>to be used by my passenger.
Hey, you probably paid too much. Relg's diviner ability could easily be done
as Tunnelling - he could _even_ use his powers to make holes in rock if he
wanted, and to use it _against_ opponants! Pushed a living Murgo right into
a rock face and left him there! I'd build Relg's power like this:
1" Tunnelling, vs. 8 DEF, Option to leave no tunnel (about the hardest rock
you'll find), Only through rock and stone (-1/2, not through dirt).
36 active, 24 real points.
You wouldn't need UBO or UAO, as Tunnelling is a movement power. Grab the
target, 'open a hole', shove him in, close it up. You wouldn't need life
support, as Tunnelling assumes it, one way or another. Of course, if you
leave someone behind, they don't have Tunnelling, so no life support, so
bye-bye.
Going the Desolid route, you'd have to have Desolid, UBO (one other, no
range, does not lose the power) (+1/2), UAO (+1), Only through Rock and
Stone (-3/4 according to your GM, I'd give it more); 100 active, 57 real,
never mind the cost of Life Support. You could throw in Concentration, but
that's appropriate for both constructs, I guess.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!"
-Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins and Ron Prins
jprins@interhop.net
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Tunnelling
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>>From what I have seen from the discussions concerning tunnelling
>vs desolid, lots of people are making an assumption that I believe is not
>valid. Tunnelling adversely affects the substance that is being tunneled
>through. Thats why it leaves a hole behind.
Sounds like _you're_ the one making the assumption. Nowhere does it state
that Tunnelling does BODY to the substance. IOW, nowhere does it state that
tunnelling actually 'does damage'. It might re-arrange the substance, or
displace it, but that need not be permanent, depending upon SFX. Most
tunnelling would leave big traces - but not all.
For +10 points, the hole
>can be closed behind you as you go. But nowhere does it say it closes
>the hole leaving the substance the way you found it.
Nowhere does it say you leave an obvious trail.
>If you tunnel
>through a concrete wall, you leave behind chunks of concrete filling the
>space. If anybody has any arguments against...?
See other messages for SFX of Tunnelling - how about the 'Portable Hole'
from AD&D? Partly XDM, but part Tunnelling, too!
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"FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!"
-Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Tunnelling
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Rick Holding writes:
> But nowhere does it say it closes the hole leaving the substance the way
> you found it.
That is because... IT IS A SPECIAL EFFECT!
> If you tunnel through a concrete wall, you leave behind chunks of
> concrete filling the space. If anybody has any arguments against...?
If you tunnel through a concrete wall, you leave behind a concrete wall
exactly like the one you tunneled through. Special effect. Maybe someone
with a highly specialized sense will be able to detect the difference, but
I certainly will not.
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 23:09:48 -0400 (EDT)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>> Going through a wall and leaving an obvious path (an open space or
>> a pile of rubble blocking the path) means tunnelling.
>
>Go read Tunnelling... leaving a hole or closing it behind you must be
>specified when the poower is purchased. Either option is "free" but you
>only get one.
Err...actually, it says:
"If a character wishes to be able to fill the tunnel behind himself,"
It says nothing about 'must' fill the tunnel, only 'be able to'. Somebody
who spends the extra 10 points should have both options, methinks.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!"
-Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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jprins@interhop.net
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 23:09:52 -0400 (EDT)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Nur al-Allah
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>> >100+ Disadvantages
>> >10 Distinctive Features: Glows green, especially when speaking
>>
>> Uh, Mike, if green is the color of Allah, this shouldn't be a disadvantage,
>> but a Change Environment, should it not? I mean, if I was an Islamic priest
>> and I glowed the color of Allah, I'd consider it to be useful, neh? Should
>> really be a Change Environment AND a Distinctive Feature, I guess...
>
>Actually, I'd just call it circumstances making a disadvantage useful -
>similar to how a Reputation can aid a Presence Attack, even though it's
>technically a disadvantage.
>
>Now if he glowed green brightly enough to see by, that might be another
>story.
Er, no, because glowing green in an Islamic society is _really_ useful. It's
pretty much a 'holy aura', isn't it? Yes, it has its disadvantages, but I
think the up side is too large to be simply handwaved as turning a
disadvantage to your advantage. It's a useful power, and should be paid for.
Besides, I haven't read most of Wild Cards; how brightly did he glow?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!"
-Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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jprins@interhop.net
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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 22:17:23 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sat, 2 May 1998, happyelf wrote:
> At 09:04 PM 5/1/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> >> THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES IN CHAMPIONS!
But there are in comic books. So I guess Champions needs some work to
accurately simulate the genre which it was meant to model.
> > Your opinion. While you may decide that this works for your
> >4-color game, I may decide that an absolute defense is exactly what I need
> >for my Fantasy Hero game, or my 4-color game. This is the type of thing
> >that needlessly limits the system.
>
> Why would you need such a mechanic in fantasy anyway?
Oh, this is even easier than 'why would you need it in supers?'. I'd use
it as a part of an 'immune to magic' package. In fact, I'll be using it
in my Final Fantasy HERO game, because creatures being 100% immune to a
particular effect are part of the genre.
> the damage values
> are lower, yes?
Depends on the type of fantasy game you run.
> It is not valid to state that a power should be
> created just becasue certain people can't wrap their head around the
> idea of 'special effect'.
No, but it is valid to state that a power should be created when existing
powers are not satisfactory to do the job. There are a few instances like
that in HERO, which despite all claims to the contrary, is not a perfect
or all-encompassing system.
> I repeat, a set of powers that give high defence CAN BE defined as
> indesructable.
Even though it's not.
> I't
> just a a matter of concentrating on the special effect instead of fixating
> on the powers
> in a way which damages the basis of the system.
You keep claiming this, yet you have never once stated exactly how 100% DR
would 'make a mockery of almost any point-based system' or 'damage the
basis of the system'. Please, enlighten us on exactly how the entire
concept destroys HERO as a viable system.
> Less playable how? The mechanics deal with character concepts,
> not plot devices, and not freeform game-play. If you decide
> something is indestructable it is, such concepts are outside
> the bounds of the character creation rules for a REASON.
And that reason is?
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
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Date: 01 May 1998 23:18:25 -0400
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Sakura writes:
> Looks like Rick isn't the one that needs to go read Tunnelling.
Yeah... my mind is *not* working properly this evening. That's two stupid
mistakes in a row.
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Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 14:11:33 +1000 (EST)
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From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 10:17 PM 5/1/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On Sat, 2 May 1998, happyelf wrote:
>> At 09:04 PM 5/1/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> >
>> >> THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES IN CHAMPIONS!
>
>But there are in comic books. So I guess Champions needs some work to
>accurately simulate the genre which it was meant to model.
>
Name one. juggernaught? eyes cut by shatterstar in x-force... five i think,
and almost sqewered by hulk redently. perfect example or virtually
invunerablility.
Odin? heh. that's why all of the norse are gonesville in avengrs #1.
and even if you FIND one, clearly it belong under gm improvised control.
And that includes f it exists in a pc.
>> > Your opinion. While you may decide that this works for your
>> >4-color game, I may decide that an absolute defense is exactly what I need
>> >for my Fantasy Hero game, or my 4-color game. This is the type of thing
>> >that needlessly limits the system.
>>
>> Why would you need such a mechanic in fantasy anyway?
>
>Oh, this is even easier than 'why would you need it in supers?'. I'd use
>it as a part of an 'immune to magic' package. In fact, I'll be using it
>in my Final Fantasy HERO game, because creatures being 100% immune to a
>particular effect are part of the genre.
>
Um, the levels of points ar lower, 75% reduction should do it, toss
in a bit of pd or whatever. Frankly it functions as a plot device anyway,
you shouldn't add it to points totals, there's no reason to. Just write
'invuerable to X' in the notes section, i ask you, what is the diffence?
You've asked me that, but it just occured to me that since my theory is
the incumbent, the burden of evidence lies with you.
>> the damage values
>> are lower, yes?
>
>Depends on the type of fantasy game you run.
>
I responded thus because someone set fantasy hero apart as an example of greater
suitability. There are just as many plot concept in both genre's so
i assumed they were speaking mechanically.
>> It is not valid to state that a power should be
>> created just becasue certain people can't wrap their head around the
>> idea of 'special effect'.
>
>No, but it is valid to state that a power should be created when existing
>powers are not satisfactory to do the job. There are a few instances like
>that in HERO, which despite all claims to the contrary, is not a perfect
>or all-encompassing system.
>
BUT many of the concepts it does not encompass it avoids for a reason.
Where are the rules for a god's worshippers? or omnipotence? both can
be Virtually* defined, but for an infinite concept it must be
gm-improvisation and jugement all the way.
>> I repeat, a set of powers that give high defence CAN BE defined as
>> indesructable.
>
>Even though it's not.
>
Yes it is. if it's special effect is 'indestructable', then it is.
Otherwise it STILL isn't indestructable, becasue it's called
'one hundered percent resistant damage reduction'.
>> I't
>> just a a matter of concentrating on the special effect instead of fixating
>> on the powers
>> in a way which damages the basis of the system.
>
>You keep claiming this, yet you have never once stated exactly how 100% DR
>would 'make a mockery of almost any point-based system' or 'damage the
>basis of the system'. Please, enlighten us on exactly how the entire
>concept destroys HERO as a viable system.
>
A points based system works from the princible the you get what you pay for.
You are getting WAY more than that. Furthemore, systems DO have to be
balanced for varoius reasons, and it can't just be the gm's job to keep
excptionally damaging effects away from players. Cosidering the scope
of your proposed power, it is the equivalent of placing a fifth level
spell called 'complete invunerability' in the 'all' sphere of the
priests spell list. That is damaging.
>> Less playable how? The mechanics deal with character concepts,
>> not plot devices, and not freeform game-play. If you decide
>> something is indestructable it is, such concepts are outside
>> the bounds of the character creation rules for a REASON.
>
>And that reason is?
That they cannot be quantified, since they are infinite.
You can't quantify infinity.
You just can't.
Go ahead, try.
You'll always end up with zero or infinity.
Simple as that.
>
>J
>
>"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
> To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
>
>
>
"enslve humanity willya?"
Core Alpha PBEM http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/3306/Pbem.htm
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Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 00:17:14 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sat, 2 May 1998, happyelf wrote:
> Frankly it functions as a plot device anyway,
> you shouldn't add it to points totals, there's no reason to. Just write
> 'invuerable to X' in the notes section, i ask you, what is the diffence?
First you tell me that I'm not charging enough points for 100% immunity.
Now you're telling me to just ignore it and not charge any points. Please
make up your mind.
> >> I repeat, a set of powers that give high defence CAN BE defined as
> >> indesructable.
> >
> >Even though it's not.
>
> Yes it is. if it's special effect is 'indestructable', then it is.
> Otherwise it STILL isn't indestructable, becasue it's called
> 'one hundered percent resistant damage reduction'.
Er, so if I buy 10 rPD, and call it 'indestructable', I'm indestructable?
That's cool. Maybe I'll buy 1 PD and call it that. Much cheaper than
buying anything else.
I think your definition of 'indestructible' and 'invulnerable' differ
from mine.
Indestructible = 'cannot be destroyed'. Something with 10 or even 100 PD
can be destroyed, hence, it is not indestructible.
> >> I't
> >> just a a matter of concentrating on the special effect instead of fixating
> >> on the powers
> >> in a way which damages the basis of the system.
> >
> >You keep claiming this, yet you have never once stated exactly how 100% DR
> >would 'make a mockery of almost any point-based system' or 'damage the
> >basis of the system'. Please, enlighten us on exactly how the entire
> >concept destroys HERO as a viable system.
>
> A points based system works from the princible the you get what you pay for.
Hence the extrapolation of costs from existing ones.
> You are getting WAY more than that.
Actually, for at least 95% of the time, you're going to have wasted
points, because a lesser amount of points spent on Armor/PD/ED would have
stopped the attack cold anyway. It's that last 5% of the time that makes
up for it.
> Furthemore, systems DO have to be
> balanced for varoius reasons, and it can't just be the gm's job to keep
> excptionally damaging effects away from players.
Suuuure. And it's not the GM's job to say, 'No, you can't have a 25d6 EB
in this campaign, I don't /care/ if you have the points for it.' Tell me
another one.
> Cosidering the scope
> of your proposed power, it is the equivalent of placing a fifth level
> spell called 'complete invunerability' in the 'all' sphere of the
> priests spell list. That is damaging.
So a 5th level priest spell is the equivalent of 360 points? (Complete DR
for Physical, Mental, Energy @ 120 points each) Those 7th level spells
must be killer...
No, I think it's putting the equivalent of 'complete invulnerability' as
an 8th level priest spell, that you can only get if the GM is running a
very special type of campaign.
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
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Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 02:35:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Nur al-Allah
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Fri, 1 May 1998, John and Ron Prins wrote:
> >NUR AL-ALLAH
> >"Light of Allah"
>
> >Wildcard (Ace) Powers:
> >25 Compelling Voice: Oratory 25-
> >
> >100+ Disadvantages
> >10 Distinctive Features: Glows green, especially when speaking
>
> >wiped clean from the face of the Earth. Nur himself is an ace, his skin
> >glows bright green (the sacred color of Allah) and his voice is
> >hypnotically compelling, allowing him to sway crowds to believe his
> >fanatical views.
>
> Uh, Mike, if green is the color of Allah, this shouldn't be a disadvantage,
> but a Change Environment, should it not? I mean, if I was an Islamic priest
> and I glowed the color of Allah, I'd consider it to be useful, neh? Should
> really be a Change Environment AND a Distinctive Feature, I guess...
Well... he glows green and can't hide, so it is a DF (he also stands out
in a crowd, makes it easy for him to be mobbed by fans). As for a CE?
Well, all he does is glow green. He doesn't really shed and light or
anything. I guess the most basic form of CE would cover it.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
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Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 02:37:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Nur al-Allah
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Fri, 1 May 1998, Sakura wrote:
>
> > >100+ Disadvantages
> > >10 Distinctive Features: Glows green, especially when speaking
> >
> > Uh, Mike, if green is the color of Allah, this shouldn't be a disadvantage,
> > but a Change Environment, should it not? I mean, if I was an Islamic priest
> > and I glowed the color of Allah, I'd consider it to be useful, neh? Should
> > really be a Change Environment AND a Distinctive Feature, I guess...
>
> Actually, I'd just call it circumstances making a disadvantage useful -
> similar to how a Reputation can aid a Presence Attack, even though it's
> technically a disadvantage.
Yeah, this was my opinion.
> Now if he glowed green brightly enough to see by, that might be another
> story.
He doesn't as I remember.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 02:38:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Nur al-Allah
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Fri, 1 May 1998, John and Ron Prins wrote:
> >> Uh, Mike, if green is the color of Allah, this shouldn't be a disadvantage,
> >> but a Change Environment, should it not? I mean, if I was an Islamic priest
> >> and I glowed the color of Allah, I'd consider it to be useful, neh? Should
> >> really be a Change Environment AND a Distinctive Feature, I guess...
> >
> >Actually, I'd just call it circumstances making a disadvantage useful -
> >similar to how a Reputation can aid a Presence Attack, even though it's
> >technically a disadvantage.
> >
> >Now if he glowed green brightly enough to see by, that might be another
> >story.
>
> Er, no, because glowing green in an Islamic society is _really_ useful. It's
> pretty much a 'holy aura', isn't it? Yes, it has its disadvantages, but I
> think the up side is too large to be simply handwaved as turning a
> disadvantage to your advantage. It's a useful power, and should be paid for.
Well, I do like the CE concept. I'll probably tack that on.
> Besides, I haven't read most of Wild Cards; how brightly did he glow?
Bright enough to be obviously green, but that's about it. He wasn't his
own light source.
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* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
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* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 23:39:48 -0700
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On Friday, May 01, 1998 9:43 PM, happyelf wrote:
<snip>
> Frankly it functions as a plot device anyway,
>you shouldn't add it to points totals, there's no reason to. Just
write
>'invuerable to X' in the notes section, i ask you, what is the
diffence?
>You've asked me that, but it just occured to me that since my theory
is
>the incumbent, the burden of evidence lies with you.
There are two possibilities:
1) There is a difference. If this is the case, then your option is
insufficient, because it does not grant invulnerability.
2) There is no difference. If this is the case, then your option is
just as objectionable as 100% Damage Reduction, as they are identical.
<snip>
>Yes it is. if it's special effect is 'indestructable', then it is.
IF the GM agrees, and IF you never have to use the character with
another GM. Your way is _not_ tournament legal.
>Otherwise it STILL isn't indestructable, becasue it's called
>'one hundered percent resistant damage reduction'.
Your method leaves you vulnerable to sufficiently large attacks.
Theirs does not. Thus, yours clearly does not match the definition of
"invulnerable", while theirs does.
I have significant objections to 100% Damage Reduction, but I don't
agree with yours. Your mechanic a) does not give true invulnerability,
and b) if it did, it would be just as objectionable as theirs.
<snip>
About the only thing I do agree with here in your post is:
>That they cannot be quantified, since they are infinite.
>You can't quantify infinity.
>You just can't.
>Go ahead, try.
>You'll always end up with zero or infinity.
>Simple as that.
>
I object to "Invulnerability", and always have (though I am not
certain it should be illegal; just don't try to buy it in my
campaign), because it exactly mimics the effects of ED, PD, and MD,
except that you get infinite effect for finite points. Below the 100%
level, they have similar but different effects. At the 100% level, the
effect is identical, except that you get more for 120 pts. with one
than you can get with 3,000,000,000 pts. with the other.
Filksinger
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Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 16:52:42 +1000 (EST)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
i'm postig this back to the list, becasue it involves a concept
that should be discussed by one and all. That is, the literal
aplication of the rules as opposed to a more story-centered approach.
At 12:01 AM 5/2/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On Sat, 2 May 1998, happyelf wrote:
>
>> >Hmm...let's see...because the character concept is 'invulnerable to X' not
>> >'incredibly resistant to X'?
>>
>> You're getting special effect mixed up with game mechanic. That's like
saying
>> you can't have a hand killing attack unles it automatically kills who you
>> attack-
>> otherwise why not call it a 'hand-might-kill attack'.
>
>Poor analogy - it's called a killing attack because it does killing damage
>instead of normal damage.
>
yes, and your semantics above are on the same level. hence my point.
>And what if the 'invulnerable' character jumped in front of a train?
>Would you have said 'ah, he's invulnerable' and let him take no damage, or
>would he have taken a lot of damage?
>
The former. That's why the call it a plot concept. And the guy was in a tomb,
so trains were not around. They ended up buring him 'alive' which might have
killed him, but what difference does it make?
>>
>> No, the purpose of the game mechanics are to portray those concepts
> ^^^^^^^^^
>Nice trick, adding a word there to change the meaning of what you said.
>
next watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat. I was qualifing the statement-
if you looked at the whole statement you'd see i was dividing the concept
up into two concepts one which adds to the other.
>> which are not left up to the gm, so that people can have fun within
>> a cohesive framework which enhances roleplaying and action.
>
>OK. And how does adding 100% DR undermine this? The cost is extrapolated
>from existing costs, so it certainly doesn't make the game mechanics
>'uncohesive'.
>
Yes it does. It undemines the princible of getting what you pay for,
and requires the gm to exercise a completly different type of
control over who buys what powers. And the cost is not extrapolated.
Damage reductuion bases itself on the princible that 100% is unobtainable.
Also, most powers costs exist as a mid-point between minimum and maximum
effect.
The minimum effect of your power is infinity, as is the maximum.
>> >> and ignores
>> >> the nature of damage.
>> >
>> >'Ignores the nature of damage'? How so?
>>
>> Damage hurts.
>
>Not if you're invulnerable, that being the whole point of invulnerability.
>8)
>
no actually rimmer from rd dwarf was invunerable in series six-
but it still hurt when people hit him.
I though you said invunerability means you don't take damage?
feeling pain is another matter entirely. hmmmmmmmm a doesn't apn have a lot
to do with stun?
>> and is not limited to a particular 'special effect' at
>> such nitense levels. If you are immune to nuclear explosions, at ground
>> zero you're still going to get flung about a kilometre and die when you
>> hit the ground,
>
>That's knockback. Damage Reduction doesn't affect that.
>
Yes, but it's a concept inherent in the attack. I say again i though you
say invunerable means you don't take any damage from an attack?
^^^
>> or be torn to pieces by rock fragments similarly propelled,
>> at further distance from the epicentre.
>
>If you want your nuclear bomb to have a physical component as well as an
>energy component, you ought to buy it that way, otherwise, you're not
>doing a nuclear bomb very well. Alternately, the GM could calculate
>knockback for rocks and suchlike in the area of effect and handle it that
>way.
>
I'm talking about a rl equivalent. Invunerability is unobtainable.
The examples i give justify copping a bit of damage despite being
invunerable to
x- becasue x isn't all that's involved. No-one can tell me i have to write
out every nuance and potential value of a nuclear blast just becasue some
guy wants an invunverable character written a particular way.
>> So when being invunerable to fire, one is also invunerable to
>> fragments of metal
>
>No, obviously not, but the typical 'flame blast' power doesn't include
>fragments of metal. These magical fragments of metal aren't going to
>appear all the time - only in certain circumstances. That's why there's a
>GM, to handle stuff like that.
>
actually i think i gave a few other examples, which you neglected to note. .
.yet.
most of them apply in almost all circumstances. And there is usually one thing
or another. Hence it is valid to allow a degree of stun of some sort at least.
This is far more plausable then what you are suggesting. Also, if an
invunerable
guy gets hit by ANY high-energy effect, he better have life support, as well.
>In a comic book setting, I'd only use these fragments of metal if someone
>deliberately tried to create/use them - i.e. 'Oh no! Pyron is immune to my
>flame blast power! Maybe if I cause that propane tank next to him to
>explode, he'll be harmed by the shrapnel!' (aims at tank, boom, etc)
>
*sigh* first you say non-comic book settings are suport for invunerability...
now this. clearly that's just straight PD vs ED, and even if it isn't
it'd work wether the invunerability came from existing methods of 100%rdr.
Again my point is not that your 100%rdr wouldn't work, but that there are
plenty of resons for doing normal defences and copping a bit of stun or even
body.
>> , sudden trauma from temperature changes(maybe)
>
>Isn't that part of how fire damages people? Obviously, being immune to
>fire would make you immune to this, then. At least, immune to sudden
>trauma from temperature raising...
>
My point exactly: what does 'immune to fire' cover? you could argue that,
since heat is just molecular agitation, soeone with this immunity would be
so immune to being punched also- it's all kinetic transference.
>Of course, if someone truly wanted to be 'invulnerable to fire' I'd
>suggest they also buy LS: Intense Heat...
>
Yes. .. but you just said 'immune to fire' means you can't take
damage from fire. In that case how would you explain someone
with 100%red and NO ls? okay let's say '100% red vs fire attacks',
but that still doesn't wash. You're basing your suggestion on a
scenario- a character who does not take damage from X.
But the problem is that they're bound to take damage from x
in some ways unless you reduce it to pure game mechanics
(as in immune to attacks with X as special effect) in which
case it is no longer valid to argue from anything but a mechanics-
based perspective. In that case the rules remains- you get what
you pay for.
>> smoke inhalation,
>
>If they want smoke as part of the power, they have to pay for it. If its
>a 'normal fire' the Ref should use whatever rules for smoke inhalation he
>wants to.
>
>> pressure changes,
>
>See above, on metal fragments.
>
no, again you speak of game mechanics when i'm speaking
of reality. You base your concept on pure rules-logic,
the problem is your logic is flawed. These are all good
reasons why someone who is (sfx) indesructable to X
would still take a few stun from an attack with X
as a special effect, but you continue to speak in
pure game mechanics. Frankly i think you have no intrest
in the role-playing concept at all, this is about
pumping superdood full of cheese.
>> heart attack from being
>> envloped in fire (or at least a moment of hesitation and diorientation-
>> sounds like possible stun to me), ect, ect, ect.
>
>Er. Maybe when the character is first getting used to the power - after
>he's got faith in it, I doubt it. In any case, that's a matter better
>left for roleplaying.
>
NO, the INFINITE CONCEPT is the matter best left to roleplay. And no matter how
often you do it, being envloped in green energy is going to give you a moments
distraction. That equates to a few stun quite easily.
>> >Someone who is /invulnerable/ to energy damage is, well, very different
>> >from someone who has 80 points of resistant ED. Heck, someone with a 15d6
>> >EB could (on a lucky roll, mind you) do damage to someone with an 80 ED.
>>
>> No, the maximum damage from 15d6 is 30 body, so stun only.
>
>Yes, stun /damage/ - note key word 'damage' here, as in the stuff you
>shouldn't take when you're invulnerable. Otherwise, you get stuff like
>'Well, yeah, I'm invulnerable to fire. Except it can knock me out.' which
>is pretty silly if you ask me.
>
Stun is stun. It can be portrayed many different ways, many having
nothing to do with damage. For instance you burn stun after you
exaust end, that isn't some invisible pixie slapping you around for
exceeding you quota. And you can get
'Well, yeah, I'm invulnerable to fire. Except it can knock me out.'
anyway, from a guy with no life support, or a dozen other things. And AGAIN
it's not the fire doing it, it's other things. All it takes is a tad
bit of lateral thinking which is far preferable to a literal-mindedness which
ruins the mechanics.
>> >Someone who is invulnerable to energy damage should be able to stand in
>> >the way of the Death Star planet-destroying laser and not get hurt at all
>>
>> -including by being flung through a planet? heh. my point exactly.
>
>This is knockback, which (as stated before) is not affected by Damage
>Reduction.
>
You just said 'WITHOUT GETTING HURT AT ALL.' When a bullet kills you
it often doesn't do so from the tissue damage, but the shock. Both are
involved in the attack, however it is valid to say that the impact ot a
superlaser is INHERENTLY involved in the concept of the damage it casues.
>> And you miss what i'm saying. In a heroic level campaign there's no place
>> for your power, in fact there's no place for it in a superheroic one-
>> If you want 'i'm invunverable, hence i can bounce bullets off my chest' then
>> by 30 prd. if you want 'i can bounce a superlaser off mu chest' then buy
>> 75% redr, 200RED, or hell just by MISSLE DEFLECTION.
>
>> You can't cheat and
>> get such an immense ability without paying the points for it.
>
>Say /what/? Of /course/ you have to pay the points for it, I never said
>you didn't! In fact, it's a bloody expensive ability!
>
>Damage Reduction doubles in cost for each 'level' of 25%. Extrapolating
>this table gives you a cost of 120 points for 100% resistant damage
>reduction for one category of attacks.
>
*yawn* peanuts. That's 120 points to defend against
160,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
body damage. You know how man points that is comparativly speaking?
>So explain again how this is 'cheating' and 'getting an immense ability
>without paying the points for it'? Aren't you the one telling me that I'd
>/basically/ have it if I spent an equal number of points on another power?
>
No not an equal number, an infinite amount more. In order to have
PD which will protect you agaist all possible physical attacks, you can
go two ways. One is to by an infinite amout or pd- as would be required to
match you.
You may as well buy infinite body and stun instead. OR, you can by pd high
enough that
within the framework of the campaign, only very powerful attacks will bother
you at all,
call it 'invunerable' as a sfx, and the damage taken there can be explained
many ways
as i've suggested.
>> Like it or not, a guy who gives moff tarkin's little toy
>> the laugh is built on a hell of a lot of points.
>
>120 points is a hell of a lot to spend on a defense, and probably exceeds
>most campaigns' AP limits.
>
No. A starting super can afford that in theory. and AP limits are
not a valid guage of power level. You can set them wherever you
want and call it 'expensive', but really expense is total cp -
cost of power. 120 pts say -1/4 for 'only vs fire' is
90 points. which frankly is birdseed. oops, i mean chicken feed. whatever.
a high-power character (375 pts) can buy all three for 360 and still
have change left for str and some dex.
>> Or you could just use
>> MISSLE DEFLECTION, or treat it as a plot-device.
>
>Ahh yes. And I should charge how many points for this 'plot device'?
>
A plot device doesn't cost points. that Is the point. Since there is
no possible points total which properly defines infinity, it is
far more valid to simply let it lie as it exists- a plot device.
>> In fact let's think about this for a mo. How about A dodge effect teamed
>> with images,
>
>Which would let the laser fly right through the image and strike the
>planet, and would be compeltely useless against area effect attacks.
>Er...no.
>
no. . .the image would be to make you look like your bouncing it off the
chestige...
and human-sized target culd not blaock a superlaser without some sort of
force wall. the superlaser on the prototype deathstar in the jedi academy novels
completly envloped the sun crusher, so no a human is too small. And an area
effect
couldn't be blocked in this way anyhow.
>> or just dodge with the special effect that it 'bounces off his chest'?
>
><laugh> So you're telling me to spend 5 points for a power that you think
>120 points is too cheap for? In any case, that would allow the power to
>be defeated by having a more accurate weapon. "I'm invulnerable, except to
>sniper rifles!" Er...no, again.
>
Well buy scads of dcv bonuses. say. .5 pts for doge, +20 dcv fo 100 points.
It's within the rules, and it's a better idea than giving points for infinity.
>> with
>> such high
>> power levels, it wouldn't make much of a difference wether you dodge or black
>> as to what damage the effect does to stuff behind you, and if your worried
>> about that
>> buy missle deflection.
>
>Except that it's again useless against area effect attacks - and also
>against hand-to-hand attacks. "I'm invulnerable, unless someone punches
>me." No.
>
there is such a thing as bying MORE THAN ONE POWER to depict a sfx power?
And if it's an area effect attack as i said you couldn't block it from
hitting the planet anyway, since area effects are not linear.
>> Why not buy a dispel of supress whose special effect is
>> 'the attack fails to cause any damage', for probably a big discount for
>> being limited
>> to you, ect?
>
>Dispel or Suppress take a half-phase attack action to perform, for one.
>
then buy speed and weedle an intercept out of the gm. or prepare in advance-
again this is lateral vs linear thinking.
>> Your problem is that you can't see the forest for the trees,
>> your too
>> preocupied with the 'psudo special efects' that you have atributed to the
>> powers.
>
>I haven't seen any better solutions - none of the ones you offered are
>acceptable, for the reasons I've already outlined.
>
Here's my official take on invunerable to laser weapons(as in superlasers,
fer instaance):
missle defleion, + 5 speed only to use missle deflection, (and stuff like
always on, ect)
75% redr, rdr.
full life support.
600 rep
600 red,
all these bought with 'only vs x.'.
And besides, the real reason my ideas aren';t acceptable are:
A) you like your idea
and
B) being indestructable my way places it far out of the
reach of low power characters, as it should be.
>> For some reason you want in mechanics print that your character is
>> invunerable to x,
>> and the special effect adn storyline side of this is not enough for you,
>> despite it being
>> the most important part.
>
>Hey, if the GM
>
i wuz speaking rhetorically.
>> No, it's far more chessy. one is a recognised plot concept agreed to by
>> the gm, the other is an attempt to get more than your points worth.
>
>Is 50% Damage Reduction an atttempt to get more than your points worth?
>If you get attacked by a 12d6 EB, it's going to save you from about 21
>stun - more than the equivalent points worth of armor. If you get
>attacked by a 20d6 EB, the difference is even greater.
>
Yes, and damage reduction depends on the idea than no matter what, SOME damage
will get past. geddit? some will. no matter what. i tend to round damage up,
and i believe this was the idea. This is the basis of damage reduction.
>So I guess Damage Reduction is a fundamentally cheesy power, and it should
>be taken out - just buy Armor, or Missile Deflection, or
>Dodge-with-special-effects or...
>
No it shouldn't, no they shouldn't. they can be abused, but then can be used
well.
100% rdr is nothing but one big ABUSE.
>> >Go back to the Death Star laser. Character A has 100% Energy Damage
>> >Reduction. Character B has 80 points of Resistant ED. The Death Star is
>> >about to fire.
>>
>> character b is out of his league.
>
>Not by concept - he's 'invulnerable to energy', remember. That should
>include a Death Star superlaser.
>
No, by points level he is out of his league. by points level if you want
to include an invunerable guy in your game, then it costs bulk points.
Deal with it. if a player says he wants his pc to be invunerable to
the nth degree, and you agree, then give him extra points. The other players
might not like it, but it's preferable to lying about how much the power is
worth, at least they know where they stand.
>> character A shouldn't exist. and
>> they're both toast from hittig the planet.
>
>You're fixated on this knockback thing, aren't you? If it makes you feel
>better, assume they have enough flight and/or knockback resistance to
>avoid the effects. Or assume that the DSSL is bought with 'no knockback'
>- it basically vaporizes what it hits, so there wouldn't be any knockback
>anyway. I never saw ships or planets getting pushed around by it in the
>movies...
>
um, they went caboom. in support of you, the sun crusher didn't budge
whe it got hit, but it was invunerable- so i guess being invunerable
DOES include knockback resistance *eg*
>> >Player A thinks, 'My character is invulnerably to energy - he'll stand in
>> >front of the cannon and stop the beam from hitting the planet.'
>> >
>> >Player B thinks, 'My character is really resistant to energy...but that's
>> >an awful big cannon...it might get through...I wonder if the GM is feeling
>> >nice?...maybe I better not risk it...I think I'll fly up and try to
>> >disable the laser before it fires.'
>>
>> Player b thinks "gee, thank god i bought missle deflection, and/or
>
>Character B spent his points on ED, not missile deflection, since he
>wanted to be 'invulnerable to energy', which includes plenty of
>non-missile effects.
>
yes, why can't he buy both? in fact he should have. When thor's p
buys 'godlike resistance' he doedn't just chuck all his egg's
in one basket- say power defence, - and then whine when he gets
mind-zapped. This is frankly quite elementry. Powers, especially
defences, are often bought in groups to depict particular powers.
>And for that matter, Missile Deflection requires a half-phase attack
>action, and is not alwayys in effect...'Well, I'm invulnerable...if I make
>my skill roll'. Again...er, no.
>
as opposed to 'i'm invunerable and it only cost me 120 points!
wow that gm is a sucker!' and hell, it'll get past 100% guy anyway, unless
he's giant sized. And if you like, just buy 600 red or however much, plus
75% redg.
That's what it takes, you get what you paid for.
>> the gm is not a killer and hence wouldn't put a 500 pt character in front
>> of a superlaser just for the hell of it."
>
>Hey, I just put the Death Star in orbit around the planet. I didn't tell
>them how to deal with it.
>
So they solve the problem by useing the dopey powers? *yawn*
i'd rather have a character who is positive he's invunerable,
but his player still has to gamble, yes? still heroic?
still has a POINT?
>In any case, /if/ character B /was/ 'invulnerable to energy' as part of
>his concept, leaping in front of the superlaser is a viable thing to do.
>But, he's not invulnerable. Just tough.
>
No-one in the universe is completly cofident of never being harmed.
And again the gm can still just plot device it if he wants, it is
far preferable to letting loose the monster you suggest.
>> >I think that the mechanics do need to back up the power as much as
>> >possible.
>>
>> Yes. As much as possible. Since your speaking about an infinite and
>> unobtainable stat (always takes 0 damage from massive attack),
>> and the ssytrem must retain it's integrity, it is otside possibility.
>
>You still haven't satisfied me that this damages the integrity of the
>system.
>
Then i never will. If you don't get how this changes the system for the worse,
then i'd suggest your not useing the mechanics at all. you're just making
stuff up and attaching mechanics-based rationalisations. Why not just
go free improv?
>> No, the character and the *reality* defines them as invunerable.
>> But that can change later if the gm or p wants, without any whining
>> or problem with disbelief about how they suddenly lost their cewl
>> power.
>
>If the GM plans to change it, then he shouldn't let peopel buy the power
>int he first place. It's going to be out of the reach of most normal
>people in most normal campaigns anyway.
>
Yes. .not let people. you expect the gm to place a type of
control on character creation which will ruin the game for
pretty much every player. Yes the gm should look at ap, and
stop signs and such, and approve of reject powers,
but this is entirely differnt than
placing a power which pretty much says 'thou art god'
in the book and then not letting people use it, or
letting them if the mood takes you. i say again,
if you are looking fot that level of gm control, you're
better off making up sheets in purely freeform terms.
>> >So you're saying that writing down '80 rED' on my character sheet instead
>> >of '100% rEDR' will somehow make me a better roleplayer?
>
>> The fact is that if one
>> person is happy to let it be a story concept, and the other wants it in
>> so they can whip it out in comat situations, person a is the better
>> roleplayer, and not so obsessed about combat.
>
>Now we're getting into motivations, which is odd when we're talking about
>game mechanics, but oh, well. I'd be happy to 'let it be a story
>concept', but if my GM and I agreed on that - 'look, I want this character
>to be completely invulnerable to fire damage, is that OK with you?'
>'Sure.' - then I think I would be justifiably upset if he decided that I
>was going to take damage from being hit by a big fire attack, because I
>only had 80 rED.
>
Here we are- through you said you were the gm? And couldn't a gm decide that
anyway
, reguardless of the power involved?
You are asking to give a player the power to veto the gm's decisions.
A player with a character with this power could quite rightly say
"Hey, you said billstorm cannot be hurt by fire attack powers? well a fire guy
just blasted the pavement abd the rebound hurt me, but that couldn't
happen becasue the guy used a (all together now) fire attack power to
inflict the damage!
This is not on.
HERO can be played in an almost 'minatures' manner with the
gm pitching the villains against the heros, but ONLY becasue the powers
are balanced and AVOID absolute values! you are suggesting that
during such a style of play some of the combatants should have infinite
value, and
that is just not valid.
>> But supers are motal. unless you give them in infinite defence.
>> Powered is fine, ultra-immensly-unbeatably powered, now THAT'S hoohey.
>
>Now, wasn't my original post all about the fact that even someone with
>100% Physical, Energy, /and/ Mental Damage Reduction wasn't 'unbeatably
>powered'? In fact, I listed a bunch of powers and things that could
>affect them.
>
yeah, but you were wrong. such a person is unearthly powered.
they have an infinite value as part of their power mechanics descriptions,
they are too powerful. It should be a plot device or properly bought with
points (as
opposed to being attached to ataken sum).
>And if those characters are 'mortal' than people with 100% DR in /one/
>category must also be 'mortal'.
>
But they're not, becasue by 'mortal' we don't mean mortal, we mean
'not a farce'. There's always a way to kill someone, it doesn't erase the
fact that
this sort of thig does not belong in game mechanics, but plot devices.
>And character with 100% immunity to a limited subset - say, fire - must
>also be 'mortal'.
>
>Sorry, try again.
>
Well, since i'm not infinitly capable- and you have an infinite ability to
reply- simply by ignoring 100% of what i say, there is no point to this
discourse
if it is viewed as an attempt to persuade.
There is no way that i could ever convince you, and you are not being honest
with
yourself or me if you say there is. I simply replied to get my opinions in
the open,
i never entertanied the delusion that i could change your mind.
>>
>> Becasue the gm can change his mind.
>
>Thus opening the way for lots of bad feelings between him and the
>player...
>
Let me get this straight- in order to please your player, you have to let his
pc be invunerable and NEVER take it back? Look frankly that has nothing to
do with role-playing at all. That's just a powergamer throwing a tantrum.
Comics use the phrase 'night invunerable' for a reason. If you are suggestig
that
this travesty of a power is valid simply to placate a player who wants to be
the ultimate 'pro from dover', than i doubt any of your arguments are valid,
since they exist simply as rationalisation of that objective.
>> and by quantifying such a power
>> you open the way for powergamers extreme, and shift such concepts
>> from the gm's call (where things like omnipotence, ect belong)
>> to a part of character creation.
>
>I'm of the opinion that you should design for the real players of the
>game. If you try to munchkin-proof a game, you will only succeed in
>limiting the honest players.
>
That's juat silly. And frankly wanting to be completly invunerable when you
have the choice t be nigh-invunerable and have your character and everyone
else act like they are (hence allowing any possible ROLEPLAYING concepts)
is nothing more than powergaming.
>The GM has the easiest way in the world to stop the use of this power.
>Say 'There's a 60 AP limit on defenses'. On the other hand, the GM that
>/wants/ effects like this to be around can have it and use it.
>
No. For one thing not everyone uses ap limits, for another, as i already
said this goes WAY beyond concepts like disallowing damge reduction and FTLm,
or even high-damage attacks. Nothing can compare to this power, so from a
points based perspective it is no power at all.
>If the GM is so weak as to let powergamers run roughshod over him, he
>needs to get a backbone, not rely on the protection of the rulebook.
>
Funny, you're the one going on about players getting upset about having their
invnuerability taken away, and so forth. The power-gamers are on your side
of the equasion, plain and simple. A roleplayer would accept the plot device,
and let the cards fall where the story wills it, rather than demanding in
writing
free rien to ride roughshod over the game.
The rule book exists for a reason,
and in such an extreme case it should not be a gm call as to wether such a power
mechanic can be used. rather, put it as a plot device as it should be,
completly
under the gm's control.
>J
>
>"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
> To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
>
>
>
"enslve humanity willya?"
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Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 17:12:07 +1000 (EST)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 12:17 AM 5/2/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On Sat, 2 May 1998, happyelf wrote:
>> Frankly it functions as a plot device anyway,
>> you shouldn't add it to points totals, there's no reason to. Just write
>> 'invuerable to X' in the notes section, i ask you, what is the diffence?
>
>First you tell me that I'm not charging enough points for 100% immunity.
>Now you're telling me to just ignore it and not charge any points. Please
>make up your mind.
>
The difference is the emphasis given. A gm can do whatever he wants to
a plot device, whgile he has a certain responsibility to not muck
around with the pc's points and stuff too much. However this is dependant on
said
'points and stuff' being within limits, which invunerability breaks and
trods into
the ground.
>> >> I repeat, a set of powers that give high defence CAN BE defined as
>> >> indesructable.
>> >
>> >Even though it's not.
>>
>> Yes it is. if it's special effect is 'indestructable', then it is.
>> Otherwise it STILL isn't indestructable, becasue it's called
>> 'one hundered percent resistant damage reduction'.
>
>Er, so if I buy 10 rPD, and call it 'indestructable', I'm indestructable?
>That's cool. Maybe I'll buy 1 PD and call it that. Much cheaper than
>buying anything else.
>
I never said that. The power level should be high enough to
deal with most atacks.
but if your gm allows it it is nothing differnt than a plot device-
and the same goes for this 100% thing.
>I think your definition of 'indestructible' and 'invulnerable' differ
>from mine.
>
>Indestructible = 'cannot be destroyed'. Something with 10 or even 100 PD
>can be destroyed, hence, it is not indestructible.
>
Yes, and how will stun casue you to be destroyed? In fact by your deffinition,
every character in play who is not dead by the end of the campaign is
indestructable.
ALSO, if something that is indestructable cannot be destroyed, or 'cannot be
destroyed by x'
, how do you explain the effect of drains? let's say i drain your 100%rdr 1
point-
then bang, you're dead. Destroyed by x. But wait, i though you said your
CAN'T be destroyed by x!!!
The same goes for minor damage acrued from the finite model i propose. It's
a fact of life.
>> >> I't
>> >> just a a matter of concentrating on the special effect instead of fixating
>> >> on the powers
>> >> in a way which damages the basis of the system.
>> >
>> >You keep claiming this, yet you have never once stated exactly how 100% DR
>> >would 'make a mockery of almost any point-based system' or 'damage the
>> >basis of the system'. Please, enlighten us on exactly how the entire
>> >concept destroys HERO as a viable system.
>>
>> A points based system works from the princible the you get what you pay for.
>
>Hence the extrapolation of costs from existing ones.
>
>> You are getting WAY more than that.
>
>Actually, for at least 95% of the time, you're going to have wasted
>points, because a lesser amount of points spent on Armor/PD/ED would have
>stopped the attack cold anyway. It's that last 5% of the time that makes
>up for it.
>
yes. . and the other 5% of the time your useing an infinite value. ..
hmmm. . 95% you lose out by X degree. ... .5% of the time you
don't lose out, and that 5% of the time involves ALL POSSIBLE ATACKS
past a particular point. . .so in other words you defend against
100% of possible attacks of that sort for 120 points. . ..gee.
I'm pretty sure you're getting a bargain.
>> Furthemore, systems DO have to be
>> balanced for varoius reasons, and it can't just be the gm's job to keep
>> excptionally damaging effects away from players.
>
>Suuuure. And it's not the GM's job to say, 'No, you can't have a 25d6 EB
>in this campaign, I don't /care/ if you have the points for it.' Tell me
>another one.
>
That's entirely different. The gm is able to set campaign stuff for hero so well
becasue it is points based. invunerability lies outside of the mechanics
options that a player should EVER have. ever.
>> Cosidering the scope
>> of your proposed power, it is the equivalent of placing a fifth level
>> spell called 'complete invunerability' in the 'all' sphere of the
>> priests spell list. That is damaging.
>
>So a 5th level priest spell is the equivalent of 360 points? (Complete DR
>for Physical, Mental, Energy @ 120 points each) Those 7th level spells
>must be killer...
>
>No, I think it's putting the equivalent of 'complete invulnerability' as
>an 8th level priest spell, that you can only get if the GM is running a
>very special type of campaign.
>
yeah that special thing. . .if the campaign is so special,
then the effect is rare as well as unbalanced. That's like me saying:
"I think there should be a 'kill everything' power for 200 points becasue
i'm doing a campaign about the rapture.
This sort of thing does not belong in character creation, it is a plot device.
>J
>
>"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
> To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
>
>
>
"enslve humanity willya?"
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Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 17:27:08 +1000 (EST)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 11:39 PM 5/1/98 -0700, you wrote:
>On Friday, May 01, 1998 9:43 PM, happyelf wrote:
>
><snip>
>> Frankly it functions as a plot device anyway,
>>you shouldn't add it to points totals, there's no reason to. Just
>write
>>'invuerable to X' in the notes section, i ask you, what is the
>diffence?
>>You've asked me that, but it just occured to me that since my theory
>is
>>the incumbent, the burden of evidence lies with you.
>
>
>There are two possibilities:
>
>1) There is a difference. If this is the case, then your option is
>insufficient, because it does not grant invulnerability.
>
No, the differnce stated exists only within a particular perspective.
Furthemore the insufficiency is due to the extremly high demands of
the player.
as the saying goes, like a tortology,
Stating a paradox gets us nowhere in two differnt directions.
>2) There is no difference. If this is the case, then your option is
>just as objectionable as 100% Damage Reduction, as they are identical.
>
No they are not. One relies fully on plot edvice- in which the gm's voice
is the only law. The other lies in game mechanics- in which case, as sakura has
himself said, players often object to 'tampering'. It is deffinintly more valid
to place a concept like this solely in the gm's hands, as opposed to trying to
quantify an infinite concept, and leave that error on the character sheet.
><snip>
>>Yes it is. if it's special effect is 'indestructable', then it is.
>
>IF the GM agrees, and IF you never have to use the character with
>another GM. Your way is _not_ tournament legal.
>
And his is? To tag a 120 points onto the plot device 'indestructable' is
not tournament-legal. Are you tellng me that another gm will ok
this 120pt farce as opposed to just a bunch of defences and an
entirely mutable plot deivce? The gm is free to change a plot
device much more than a game mechanic. I doubt hero would
want a tournament ru with a fully indestructable character
in either way, it strikes me as the antithesis of what the
rules attempt to depict.
>>Otherwise it STILL isn't indestructable, becasue it's called
>>'one hundered percent resistant damage reduction'.
>
>
>Your method leaves you vulnerable to sufficiently large attacks.
>Theirs does not. Thus, yours clearly does not match the definition of
>"invulnerable", while theirs does.
>
>I have significant objections to 100% Damage Reduction, but I don't
>agree with yours. Your mechanic a) does not give true invulnerability,
>and b) if it did, it would be just as objectionable as theirs.
>
And which is a more valid construct, once we dispese with the
anally-retentive absolute term 'invunerability'
insisted upon thus far? I started with
this statement: THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES IN HERO.
Taking this into account my concept is is the preferable possibility because
A) it properly depicts the impossibility of true invunerability
and
B) is hence far preferable to the objectional nature of invunerability.
><snip>
>
>About the only thing I do agree with here in your post is:
>
>>That they cannot be quantified, since they are infinite.
>>You can't quantify infinity.
>>You just can't.
>>Go ahead, try.
>>You'll always end up with zero or infinity.
>>Simple as that.
>>
>
>I object to "Invulnerability", and always have (though I am not
>certain it should be illegal; just don't try to buy it in my
>campaign), because it exactly mimics the effects of ED, PD, and MD,
>except that you get infinite effect for finite points. Below the 100%
>level, they have similar but different effects. At the 100% level, the
>effect is identical, except that you get more for 120 pts. with one
>than you can get with 3,000,000,000 pts. with the other.
>
>Filksinger
>
>
>
>
exactly. And uh, kinda the point
of most of my post, although i did drift towards
'invunerable yet not so' territory- although i was
only doing this to show how a character concept could
conceivable depict night-invunerability and still
be based on realistic points totals. If someone
wants to roleplay and 'invunerable' character,
my advice is to get high defences, and play the
rest by ear.
"enslve humanity willya?"
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Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 17:29:53 +1000 (EST)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 12:22 AM 5/2/98 -0700, you wrote:
>You know, I never agreed with the 25% - 50% - 75% - 100% progression
>extrapolation for reduction. I always looked at it like this:
>1/4 1/2 3/4 7/8 15/16 progression extrapolation. Thus for 120 points you
>get 7/8ths reduction, 240 would net you 15/16ths.
>
>We actually had PC's with 7/8ths reduction and had villians with 15/16ths.
>
>At higher levels, it's not that big a deal, and the 7/8ths means that while
>you ignore a great deal, there is always something that can get through.
>
>Champions is not about absolutes, its a log scale. You do not tell your
>players, sorry 60 str is the highest you can get....
>
>combine a 40 pd and 7/8ths fully resist and you have a very tough brick.
>Very tough, but he can take damage....eventually.
>
>--
>__
>Miq Millman miq@teleport.com
>Tualatin, OR
>
>
Precisely. But if the player wants a nigh-invunerable
character, i'd say this is the best hero has to offer.
"enslve humanity willya?"
Core Alpha PBEM http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/3306/Pbem.htm
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Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 03:16:40 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Tunnelling
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> > But nowhere does it say it closes the hole leaving the substance the way
> > you found it.
>
> That is because... IT IS A SPECIAL EFFECT!
I really do have to agree with Rat, and others, here. When I
started the debate, I was assuming some sort of "damage" to the substance
traveled through by default with Tunneling, but that's a case of me trying
to read a default SFX into a Hero mechanic.
> > If you tunnel through a concrete wall, you leave behind chunks of
> > concrete filling the space. If anybody has any arguments against...?
>
> If you tunnel through a concrete wall, you leave behind a concrete wall
> exactly like the one you tunneled through. Special effect. Maybe someone
> with a highly specialized sense will be able to detect the difference, but
> I certainly will not.
Or maybe you leave behind rubble, though the hole is still closed
up. SFX.
I do have a problem with a tunneling character merely sticking an
arm or hand out to attack, though. This seems unbalancing. Desolid
characters could do it with affects physical world, and that's a huge
points expenditure. By staying almost completely in a substance with
Tunneling, you get most of the advantages of being immune to attack while
being able to attack yourself. This seems to be too much ability for too
little cost.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 03:20:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Desolidification)
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From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David W Toomey)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes:
>> Why 60 points? You sure as hell don't need to buy ego defense as
>> resistant. You should only need to have to buy the 40 point
>nonresistant
>> version.
>Assuming something like Mental Illusions manages to roll sufficiently
>high
>to do Body damage, non-resistant Mental Damage Reduction will do squat
>against the Body damage done by the illusion of a slug from a .45
>hitting
>you sqare in the face.
???
Why would it defend you anyway? The defense of the DR is the reduction
of the Mental Illusions roll for effect. If, somehow, the effect still
reached
the "does Body" level, I wouldn't reduce the illusionary damage. I
*would*
reduce the maximum effect (equal to AP in Ment Illusion) by the Damage
Reduction, but if the reduced effect of MI is still doing body, I think a
.45
will still fit in the effect.
>Non-resistant Mental Damage Reduction will also have no effect against
>a killing attack with BOECV.
If bought with the (house rule) advantage Does Body. The official rules
clearly state BOECV is Stun Only.
David W Toomey
dwtoomey@juno.com
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Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 03:28:35 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
To: Champions Listserv <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: 100% DR Debate
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Well, the impossible has happened.
Someone more obstinent than Rat has arisen.
Happyelf, consider yourself flattered that I compare you to Rat.
He at least uses some reason and logic to support himself -- you use
assumptions based on "I like it in a certain way."
(Rat does do the latter, but backs it up. Your posts have not.)
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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To: susano@access.digex.net
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 03:30:43 -0500
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Quinn the Eskimo
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From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David W Toomey)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>QUINN THE ESKIMO
>(Doctor Thomas Quincy)
>37 Drug Haze: Mental Illusions: 20d6, 0 END (+1/2), Based on
> CON (-1/2), No Range (-1/2), No Control Over Illusions (-1),
>Must
> Touch Bare Skin (-1)
What, no VPP? Quinn transfers *all* the effects of whatever drug he's on,
not just a drug haze. I would assume a VPP, with usable on others
required
on the powers, and some limitations on how the powers change...
David W Toomey
dwtoomey@juno.com
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Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 05:39:09 -0400
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Romantic Rival (how to?)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
One of our characters has chosen the Romantic Rival disad. I've decided
it's time to hold his feet to the fire on that one, but I realized that
I have no idea how to play one. Any suggestions?
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
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Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 07:17:09 -0400 (EDT)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: Tunnelling
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> I do have a problem with a tunneling character merely sticking an
>arm or hand out to attack, though. This seems unbalancing. Desolid
>characters could do it with affects physical world, and that's a huge
>points expenditure. By staying almost completely in a substance with
>Tunneling, you get most of the advantages of being immune to attack while
>being able to attack yourself. This seems to be too much ability for too
>little cost.
Well, it is a little imbalancing, but there are a couple of required things.
First, you either have to stick your head/sensory organ out of the wall to
target attacks (head shots take lots'o'damage), or buy a special sense.
Second, at least in the superhero genre, most walls won't offer great scads
of defense; maybe one (or two) attacks. That said, attacking while mostly in
a substance is a classic Tunnelling villian bit; and don't forget that very
few people buy tunnelling anyways (it's generally slow and expensive, as
movement powers go, despite its usefulness).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!"
-Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins and Ron Prins
jprins@interhop.net
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Viper ideas?
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 08:07:28 EDT
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>>I can't picture VIPER pulling in local criminals (superpowered or
normal)
>>as extra base guards unless you're running them stupid, but they could
>>pay a few gangs to create distractions for the heroes.
<snip>
> It doesn't seem all that stupid to me for VIPER to hire local
criminals,
>especially superpowered ones, as long as the specific tasks they're
>assigned aren't particularly sensitive to VIPER secrets and such. The
>impression I get from the VIPER sourcebook is that the advantages of the
>internal supers are loyalty and a good reference; the advantages of
hiring
>mercenaries (which VIPER is described as doing at times) is
>cost-effectiveness.
Sorry, I didn't phrase the post as clearly as I could have. I was
thinking about hiring mercs to guard the base _directly_, which would
then require VIPER to tell those mercs where the base was. One hero with
halfway decent acting ability, and the location is blown. OTOH, hiring
mercs to keep the heroes occupied somewhere away from the base (maybe
telling the mercs they're at the real base?) would be intelligent tactics
for VIPER to use.
Leah
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Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 09:03:56 -0500
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Horsebites
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
An odd thought which hit me today, looking over a character someone created ...
According to the stats listed on p. 197 of the BBB, a typical horse has a
1d6+1 HKA, Reduced Penetration, to represent a bite attack.
City boy that I am, I admit to general ignorance about matters equestrian,
but ... against an average, unarmored person, this would mean one bite from
a horse would leave him at 1 BODY -- a lucky roll would leave him /dying/.
So, I'm wondering if anyone knows ... are there a lot of fatalities out
there in the real world resulting from horse bites? :^] Strict injuries,
mind you, not infections or other side consequences.
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
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Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 10:07:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Quinn the Eskimo
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sat, 2 May 1998, David W Toomey wrote:
> >QUINN THE ESKIMO
> >(Doctor Thomas Quincy)
>
> >37 Drug Haze: Mental Illusions: 20d6, 0 END (+1/2), Based on
> > CON (-1/2), No Range (-1/2), No Control Over Illusions (-1),
> > Must Touch Bare Skin (-1)
>
>
> What, no VPP? Quinn transfers *all* the effects of whatever drug he's on,
> not just a drug haze. I would assume a VPP, with usable on others
> required on the powers, and some limitations on how the powers change...
Except that Quinn is usually stoked on psychoactive drugs and I'm not sure
what additional drug effects one would get from that. GURPS Wildcards
talked about random Mental Advantages and Disadvantages for Quinn and his
target, but honestly, the one time he showed up in the books, he put
Yeoman into a one hour dream trip. Of course, I like the fact that his
power (in GURPS) is a 'GM's special', that simply wrote in '20 points Drug
haze transfer' and left it at that...
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* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
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Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 07:38:00 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 10:09 PM 5/1/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Rick Holding writes:
>
>> Going through a wall and leaving an obvious path (an open space or
>> a pile of rubble blocking the path) means tunnelling.
>
>Go read Tunnelling... leaving a hole or closing it behind you must be
>specified when the poower is purchased. Either option is "free" but you
>only get one.
Here are the first two sentences of Paragraph 2 of Tunneling: "The
tunnel is normally left open behind the character. If a character wishes
to be able to fill in the tunnel behind himself, the cost is +10 points."
(I learned long ago to never debate an aspect of the rules without
having the rule book handy, and consulting it to see if others' point were
valid.)
---
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Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 07:59:03 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 02:11 PM 5/2/1998 +1000, happyelf wrote:
>>Oh, this is even easier than 'why would you need it in supers?'. I'd use
>>it as a part of an 'immune to magic' package. In fact, I'll be using it
>>in my Final Fantasy HERO game, because creatures being 100% immune to a
>>particular effect are part of the genre.
>
>Um, the levels of points ar lower, 75% reduction should do it, toss
>in a bit of pd or whatever. Frankly it functions as a plot device anyway,
>you shouldn't add it to points totals, there's no reason to. Just write
>'invuerable to X' in the notes section, i ask you, what is the diffence?
>You've asked me that, but it just occured to me that since my theory is
>the incumbent, the burden of evidence lies with you.
Let's back up to a couple of things that have already been presented:
flying into the sun, and interposing oneself in front of the Death Star.
Cohesion has 100% resistant Energy Damage Reduction. If he interposes
himself in front of the Death Star's 50d6 RKA planet destructor beam, he
takes no damage. He takes butt-busting Knockback, but he takes no damage.
He can also fly into the sun, with its 100d6 Killing environment (an
admittedly arbitrary figure there) and suffer little in the way of ill
effects.
Indestructor has 75% resistant Energy Damage Reduction and 20 rPD. What
happens when he interposes himself in front of the Death Star's 50d6 RKA?
Well, mechanically speaking, he'd take 2 BODY and 112 STUN from an average
roll (at least, according to my quick calculations). What happens when he
flies into the sun, with its 100d6 Killing environment? I calculate 82.5
BODY and 228 STUN from an average roll.
Seems pretty different to me.
>>> I repeat, a set of powers that give high defence CAN BE defined as
>>> indesructable.
>>
>>Even though it's not.
>
>Yes it is. if it's special effect is 'indestructable', then it is.
So according to you, Indestructor would walk out of the above situations
unscathed, even though the mechanics say he shouldn't?
Well, that's your decision for your game, and nobody with any sense
should try to argue that you're doing it "wrong." Some of us prefer to run
such things more strictly by the rules, though.
>>> Less playable how? The mechanics deal with character concepts,
>>> not plot devices, and not freeform game-play. If you decide
>>> something is indestructable it is, such concepts are outside
>>> the bounds of the character creation rules for a REASON.
>>
>>And that reason is?
>
>That they cannot be quantified, since they are infinite.
>You can't quantify infinity.
>You just can't.
>Go ahead, try.
>You'll always end up with zero or infinity.
>Simple as that.
Hm. Somehow you derived infinity from one, so there must be something
different going on here....
---
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Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 08:06:06 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Romantic Rival (how to?)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 05:39 AM 5/2/1998 -0400, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>One of our characters has chosen the Romantic Rival disad. I've decided
>it's time to hold his feet to the fire on that one, but I realized that
>I have no idea how to play one. Any suggestions?
A Rivalry is essentially a variant of a Psychological Limitation. Check
who he's a Rival with, give that Rival a romantic interest, and point out
the Rivalry on the character sheet. It's up to the character to try to win
his objective.
(That's about as much as I can give without knowing a little more in the
way of detail.)
---
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Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 08:08:10 -0700
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Tunnelling
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 12:33 PM 5/2/1998 -0700, Rick Holding wrote:
>From what I have seen from the discussions concerning tunnelling
>vs desolid, lots of people are making an assumption that I believe is not
>valid. Tunnelling adversely affects the substance that is being tunneled
>through. Thats why it leaves a hole behind. For +10 points, the hole
>can be closed behind you as you go. But nowhere does it say it closes
>the hole leaving the substance the way you found it. If you tunnel
>through a concrete wall, you leave behind chunks of concrete filling the
>space. If anybody has any arguments against...?
At the same time, it doesn't say that it *doesn't* leave it looking the
same way, so the general assumption is that it's SFX dependent.
Not that your point isn't a salient one. I think it could be well
argued that some form of Invisible Power Effects should be needed to make
the tunnel vanish after it's used.
---
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Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 08:12:03 -0700
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:55 PM 5/1/1998 -0700, Christopher Taylor wrote:
>At 02:33 PM 5/1/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>Bob Greenwade writes:
>>> There's already a mechanic (for +10 points) to not leave a hole behind.
>>> Tunneling NND would go through regardless of the material's DEF, but
>>> would be completely blocked by a particular type of material or situation
>>> that was "reasonably common" (like plastics). If someone could come up
>>> with a reasonable SFX for such a thing, then I'd allow it.
>>
>>'Made of liquid': tunneling, leaves no hole, NND (defense is any 'sealed'
>>barrier).
>
>Id have to call that desolid... tunnelling allows you to bring freinds
>along, and close the hole after them.
What that would seem logical on the surface of it, it's not specified in
the 4th Ed rules. It merely says that the Tunneling character "creat[es] a
tunnel roughly his own size" and "is assumed to keep an air pocket around
him," the latter being just enough to not need Life Support. If he closes
the Tunnel behind him, then it's closed behind *him,* not anyone who
follows him; he can't bring friends along and then close it up (unless he
has UBO and Area Effect).
Now, I *could* see my way clear to allowing a mass multiple similar to
that used with Teleport (which would be cheaper than the combination of UBO
and Area Effect) to allow the Tunneling character to bring friends along
and close up the Tunnel behind the whole group.
---
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Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 10:31:06 -0500 (CDT)
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net>
Subject: Re: Romantic Rival (how to?)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Try using Tenderheart from one of the Dark champions supplements. I think
that Tenderheart appears in "Hudson city Blues", but I could be wrong.
At 05:39 AM 5/2/98 -0400, you wrote:
>One of our characters has chosen the Romantic Rival disad. I've decided
>it's time to hold his feet to the fire on that one, but I realized that
>I have no idea how to play one. Any suggestions?
>====================== =================================================
>Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
>Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
>(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
>====================== =================================================
>
>
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Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 08:59:23 -0700
To: Rick Holding <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Damage Reduction (was Re: Desolidification)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 11:55 AM 5/2/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Christopher Taylor wrote:
>> Boy Id sure be peeved if I spent 60 points for something that affects maybe
>> 1/20th of the attacks you could be affected by... if its that limited it
>> should cost a lot less. I consider mental DR to reduce the EFFECT of mental
>> abilities, of any standard mental power.
>
>Why 60 points? You sure as hell don't need to buy ego defense as
resistant. You
>should only need to have to buy the 40 point nonresistant version.
Actually.... yes you might, depending on your GM's ruling. This is
something I came up with for my Overlord type character's assassin Shukenja,
and then was later printed in Ultimate Menatlist: KA vs ECV that does Body.
Without mental defense bought resistant she tends to shred targets.
But... even at 40 points I'd be really annoyed spending that much for a very
rare effect, my point is unchanged. If, for example, you bought 40 points
of mental defense, you would be all but immune to mental powers (even non
damaging ones).
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Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
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Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 10:07:11 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Romantic Rival (how to?)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 10:31 AM 5/2/1998 -0500, Palace of Dwarves wrote:
>Try using Tenderheart from one of the Dark champions supplements. I think
>that Tenderheart appears in "Hudson city Blues", but I could be wrong.
This charcter is used in HCB, but is detailed in Underground Enemies.
---
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Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 12:10:58 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> You are adding an ability (roughly your words) to Desolidification
> (actually fundamentally changing how Desolidification works), not
> exchanging one inherent disadvantage for another.
Look at charges -- you are adding an ability (works without using
END, which is normally a regular advantage), in exchange for taking a
limited number of uses. Same situation, Rat.
It all comes down to what a GM thinks of the balance. Personally,
if someone was desol only to mental, I wouldn't require affects physical
world on Phys or Energy attacks -- I think it is balanced to do it this
way. (Of course, I probably wouldn't allow the power in the first place,
but that's a different issue.) You probably would require affects
physical world. Different campaigns, different GM decisions. The book
leaves things open enough to do it either way, and that's really the final
point.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 12:33:53 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Indestructor has 75% resistant Energy Damage Reduction and 20 rPD. What
> happens when he interposes himself in front of the Death Star's 50d6 RKA?
> Well, mechanically speaking, he'd take 2 BODY and 112 STUN from an average
> roll (at least, according to my quick calculations). What happens when he
> flies into the sun, with its 100d6 Killing environment? I calculate 82.5
> BODY and 228 STUN from an average roll.
> Seems pretty different to me.
Your numbers are off. Damage reduction is figured _after_
def takes effect. Therefore, the Death Start would do 38.75 BOD and
111.67 Stun. The sun would do 82.5 BOD and 228.33 STUN. That's a
_really_ big difference.
(Actually, your numbers looked wrong even if doing it the other
way.)
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 14:19:39 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Romantic Rival (how to?)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<< One of our characters has chosen the Romantic Rival disad. I've decided
it's time to hold his feet to the fire on that one, but I realized that I have
no idea how to play one. Any suggestions? >>
The first thing you need do is find a romantic interest for the PC. Have a
recurring NPC that the PC shows a romantic interest in. Ideally, the player
should, IMO, help you create this NPC romantic interest. Then you simply have
that NPC appear in cameos every so often. Now, here are some of my ideas of
how to involve the romantic RIVAL:
1) The romantic interest (RI) suddenly fins herself (himself?) in a tight
spot; she is behind on her rent, she needs money for an operation for her
parent, she is unable to fulfill her CD of the Month obligation...l whatever.
The PC must do something special to help her out. As the PC begins to
undertake this endeavor, he finds himself face to face with -- tah dah! -- the
Romantic Rival! The rival swear that *he* will be the one to save the RI from
disaster, not the PC. The rivalry is born.
2) The RI is to be betrothed to someone of her father's choosing (a bit
outdated, perhaps; would work better for a fantasy game). The father decides
to hold a contest, with the winner getting his daughter's hand in marriage.
The GM should take care to have all other participants be less-skilled,
less-capable, etc, than the PC and the Rival.. The idea is that the contest
comes down to those two. (evil grin).
As a twist, perhaps the RI herself participates in the contest (in
disguise?) and wins the tournament, earning the right to choose for herself.
Here's a twist on the twist... perhaps she chooses niether the PC nor the
Rival, wanting to let them continue their rivalry! :D
3) A more modern idea: The RI has a co-worker that seems to take an interest
in her. She thginks nothing of it, but this admirer soon becomes Rival to the
PC for her affection, spending time with her, taking her to lunch, helping her
with rides to work when her car breaks down, etc...
Some videos that might make good (if not tongue-in-cheek) inspiration for a
romantic rival scenario include: Jingle All the Way, True Lies, Ran (a
seriously scheming witch in that one!), Cyrano DeBergerac (or Samurai Saga, a
remake) and others. Stop and think about some videos in which people fight for
the attention of a common interest and you're on your way. :)
Mark @ GRG
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Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 11:55:55 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Damage Reduction (was Re: Desolidification)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Christopher Taylor wrote:
> Boy Id sure be peeved if I spent 60 points for something that affects maybe
> 1/20th of the attacks you could be affected by... if its that limited it
> should cost a lot less. I consider mental DR to reduce the EFFECT of mental
> abilities, of any standard mental power.
Why 60 points? You sure as hell don't need to buy ego defense as resistant. You
should only need to have to buy the 40 point nonresistant version.
--
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Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 12:16:45 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
John and Ron Prins wrote:
>
> >> The point is that if going through walls is your primary goal, there is
> >> probably a better power to use than Desolidification.
> >
> > Once again, Rat, you are way off. Desolid is _the_ power for
> >being able to move through solid objects, plain and simple.
>
> No, I'm with the Rat on this one. Going through objects is Tunnelling. Rat's
> being very specific, that's all. If you _only_ want to go through walls (and
> not be ephemeral to attacks), Tunnelling is the best option.
Going through a wall and leaving an obvious path (an open space or a
pile of rubble blocking the path) means tunnelling. Tunnelling with invisible
power effects, depending on interpritation may either conceal your tunnel or HOW
you tunnel. Going through a wall without leaving obvious signs or adversely
affecting the wall means desolidification or perhaps a form of teleport like a
friend of mine has for one of his characters. He was doing part of it wrong,
but the idea was sound.
>
> > It contains
> >the least problems. Tunnelling is good, but has a much different effect.
> >(Notably the assumption of damaging the material moved through in some
> >way, though SFX could negate this.)
>
> Definitely. We can't allow ourselves to get caught up with the name -
> 'Tunnelling' is basically 'move through solids'. 'Desolidification' is
> basically 'become insubstantial'. Walking through walls (_only_) is IMHO
> closer to Tunnelling.
>
> > I'm sure 99% of Hero gamers, when asked which power should be used
> >to make a character who could move through walls, etc, would answer
> >"desolidification".
>
> There's the rub, though, the 'etcetera'. I don't think Rat is including that
> etcetera. Looking at the objects table in the BBB, DEF 8 Tunnelling will get
> you through almost any wall. That's 21 points, plus 10 for 2" of tunnelling
> (so you can half-move), and another 10 for not leaving a hole behind. 41
> points. Sure, 'Only through walls' desolid will be cheaper (probably half
> the cost), but you've still got the need for Affects Solid while going
> through walls. That's the reason you don't want to use Desolid; it has messy
> implications.
What implications? If you are moving through a solid, there is bugger
all there to attack. If you find a hole in whatever you are moving through,
then you are no longer desolid and hence don't need to buy affects solid on
anything. As for the +10 points for not leaving a hole behind, there is still a
clear idea that something happened.
I built a character based on the Ulgo's out of the David Eddings series
of books who had the ability to walk through stone and dirt (only). Once I
explained to the GM that it couldn't be used as a defence in open air, he gave a
-3/4 limitation. He liked the effect and I was relatively happy with the size
of the limitation. Oh, yea. And I could take one other person with me. I had
to buy the life support to be able to "breath" rock and that also had to be able
to be used by my passenger.
--
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Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
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Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 12:21:14 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
> Bob Greenwade writes:
> > There's already a mechanic (for +10 points) to not leave a hole behind.
> > Tunneling NND would go through regardless of the material's DEF, but
> > would be completely blocked by a particular type of material or situation
> > that was "reasonably common" (like plastics). If someone could come up
> > with a reasonable SFX for such a thing, then I'd allow it.
>
> 'Made of liquid': tunneling, leaves no hole, NND (defense is any 'sealed'
> barrier).
I hope you are not planning on going anywhere fast (or slow for that
matter) If you plan on seeping through a wall, its going to take a while.
--
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Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 12:28:41 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Tim R Gilberg writes:
>
> >> 'Made of liquid': tunneling, leaves no hole, NND (defense is any 'sealed'
> >> barrier).
>
> > This really isn't bad. This gets around the problem tunneling has
> > of having problems with the def value of an object.
>
> And if Armor Piercing is valid on Tunnelling, I cannot object to other
> advantages that are normally used for attacks.
NOW, thats something I hadn't thought of! Hmmmm. (Quick redesign...)
--
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Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 12:33:33 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Tunnelling
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>From what I have seen from the discussions concerning tunnelling
vs desolid, lots of people are making an assumption that I believe is not
valid. Tunnelling adversely affects the substance that is being tunneled
through. Thats why it leaves a hole behind. For +10 points, the hole
can be closed behind you as you go. But nowhere does it say it closes
the hole leaving the substance the way you found it. If you tunnel
through a concrete wall, you leave behind chunks of concrete filling the
space. If anybody has any arguments against...?
--
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Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 14:36:11 -0500
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Tunnelling
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> At the same time, it doesn't say that it *doesn't* leave it looking the
>same way, so the general assumption is that it's SFX dependent.
> Not that your point isn't a salient one. I think it could be well
>argued that some form of Invisible Power Effects should be needed to make
>the tunnel vanish after it's used.
So, 'X' points worth of Tunneling to create a tunnel, +10 points to fill it
in behind you, with the assumption that the "fill" is readily perceptible
(i.e., solid concrete wall is now a big pile of concrete chunks,
grass-covered topsoil is now a mass of rocks, roots and bare dirt), and an
IPE Advantage if [the visible portion of] the tunnel is [to the casual
viewer] restored to its original condition when the tunnel closes behind
the tunneler. So far, so good.
I have read virtually none of the posts for this thread, so forgive me if
this has already been covered, but: if you assume Tunneling does not
actually restore the area behind the tunneler to its original condition
(whether or not it appears that way to a casual viewer at the now-closed
tunnel entrance), might there be situations in which the filled-in area has
reduced DEF as a result of having been Tunneled?
For example, you Tunnel through a massive vault door, several feet thick
(assume NORAD HQ or some similarly protected facility). Might not the
structural integrity of the door be somewhat affected by this afterward,
bonds weakened at the molecular level or whatever? I can't think of a case
where the change would be great and I suppose in many cases it would not
make a difference at all. If used, though, would this have to be applied
as a Linked Power or Advantage (remember it would only affect some
substances) or just a physical side-effect of Tunneling? The tunneler
might not be the one taking advantage of the reduced DEF (if any) of the
refilled area, to I'd say the latter. Thoughts?
Damon
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Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 14:46:00 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Romantic Rival (how to?)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> 3) A more modern idea: The RI has a co-worker that seems to take an
interest
>in her. She thginks nothing of it, but this admirer soon becomes Rival to the
>PC for her affection, spending time with her, taking her to lunch, helping
her
>with rides to work when her car breaks down, etc...
All good ideas, Mark. Under the 'modern' heading, the original poster
(sorry, deleted that message already) may want to consider using a kind of
pre-packaged Rivalry by just making the romantic rival The Old Boyfriend
(with whom the RI may be getting back together), the Ex-Husband (with whom
the RI may work it out) or the Male Friend (with whom the RI may discover
more in common than she originally realized). This last could be used
especially if the Rivalry exists only in the mind of the PC; he must
constantly strive to "outdo" the Male Friend in terms of doing nice or
helpful things for the RI, but the Male Friend doesn't see himself as a
rival (and so does not have that Disadvantage). He really just wants to be
a friend, though if the PC's misplaced jealously created a situation the
Male Friend could take advantage of, well maybe...
Damon
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Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 15:55:11 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Damage Reduction
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 05:41 PM 5/2/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
>Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
>Subject: Re: Desolidification
>> Indestructor has 75% resistant Energy Damage Reduction and 20 rPD. What
>> happens when he interposes himself in front of the Death Star's 50d6 RKA?
>> Well, mechanically speaking, he'd take 2 BODY and 112 STUN from an average
>> roll (at least, according to my quick calculations). What happens when he
>> flies into the sun, with its 100d6 Killing environment? I calculate 82.5
>> BODY and 228 STUN from an average roll.
>> Seems pretty different to me.
>
> Your numbers are off. Damage reduction is figured _after_
>def takes effect. Therefore, the Death Start would do 38.75 BOD and
>111.67 Stun. The sun would do 82.5 BOD and 228.33 STUN. That's a
>_really_ big difference.
>
> (Actually, your numbers looked wrong even if doing it the other
>way.)
I was using the right formula, but pushing the wrong buttons on my
calculator, at least for the BODY from the Death Star. For the rest, I was
merely rounding to the nearest whole.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
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Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 15:55:17 -0700
To: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Damage Reduction
Cc: hero-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:01 PM 5/2/1998 -0500, Donald Tsang wrote:
>actually, the Sun probably only does 10-12d6K, on a continuous basis...
>doubling adds up fast.
Actually, when I work out the numbers according to the data I have
available, even your numbers are a little low.
Given that Len Carpenter's meticulous calculations gave 12DC a temp of
1000 degrees F, +1 DC approximating 2x temp and +10DC approximating 1000x
temp (the same relationship STR has with its lifting power). Britannica
gives the surface temperature as ~5800 degrees K (the Kelvin scale operates
like the Celsius scale but from Absolute Zero, which is -273.16 C), so by
this calculation it's about 10,000 degrees F, which would be ~15 DC, or 5d6K.
As for the core, that's given as just under 14,000,000 degrees K, which
by the same numbers works out to ~25,000,000 F, which works out to 27 DC,
or 9d6K.
Then let's look at the numbers for Cohesion (100% DR) and Indestructor
(20rED and 75% DR) versus the core of the sun. Cohesion, of course, takes
no damage. The average roll of 9d6K is 31.5 BODY and 83 STUN, which still
gives Indestructor about 3 BODY and 16 STUN each Phase (actually slightly
lower). And that's just for average rolls; the sun's core could do a
maximum of 54 BODY and 324 STUN, which would do 8 BODY and 76 STUN to
Indestructor, but not touch Cohesion.
Now, I admit that I may still be missing something, but as far as I can
see the point still stands that good defense plus 75% damage reduction can
make for a good defense, but is not the same as being totally invulnerable.
>And you gotta assume that the Death Star's attack is Area Effect, or Sticky,
>or something along those lines... I think 5-6d6K with planet-sized AE will
>suffice...
Actually the most I'd give it is an Explosion with a few levels of
Increased Radius.
---
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 19:01:55 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Romantic Rival (how to?)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<< All good ideas, Mark. >>
Thanks. Yours, too.
<< ...making the romantic rival The Old Boyfriend, the Ex-Husband or the Male
Friend. This last could be used especially if the Rivalry exists only in the
mind of the PC; >>
A very good point. I was going to suggest that perhaps the RI herself has no
feelings toward the rival, perhaps even leading to a big "I'm angry at you
because you beat up my ex for no reason" confrontation. ;)
Mark @ GRG
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Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 18:38:03 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: HERO System Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: Tunnelling
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sat, 2 May 1998, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
> > At the same time, it doesn't say that it *doesn't* leave it looking the
> >same way, so the general assumption is that it's SFX dependent.
> > Not that your point isn't a salient one. I think it could be well
> >argued that some form of Invisible Power Effects should be needed to make
> >the tunnel vanish after it's used.
Hmm. Well, I've never exactly been sure what 'Invisible Power Effects'
means on a movement power, anyway. "I'm running, but you can't tell that
I am?" I suppose it /could/ mean that you leave no trace (and that, IMHO,
would be a better way of buying the ninja's 'walk without trace' power
than the currently suggested 'Gliding' method). Does that mean, though,
that flying or superleaping characters leave traces behind them? (I
suppose superleaping characters tend to leave tracks or whatever -
craters, in some cases - at takeoff and landing points, so maybe...)
> I have read virtually none of the posts for this thread, so forgive me if
> this has already been covered, but: if you assume Tunneling does not
> actually restore the area behind the tunneler to its original condition
> (whether or not it appears that way to a casual viewer at the now-closed
> tunnel entrance), might there be situations in which the filled-in area has
> reduced DEF as a result of having been Tunneled?
I would put that down to the SFX of the power. If the tunnelling is
outright digging through the stuff in question, the tunnel almost
certainly has reduced DEF. If, on the other hand, the tunnelling was
something different - a character of mine could control metal to flow out
of her way and back behind her as the SFX of her Tunnelling power - then
it might very well not affect the DEF of the material in the slightest.
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
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Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 19:40:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Damage Reduction
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>
> I was using the right formula, but pushing the wrong buttons on my
> calculator, at least for the BODY from the Death Star. For the rest, I was
> merely rounding to the nearest whole.
Uh, yeah. I missed the fact that you were right on all but the
Death Star's BOD for some reason. Sleep depravation -- end of the
semester with everything due. :o
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
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Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 21:41:31 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Damage Reduction
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
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> Yes, it does. Otherwise it is an incredibly expensive defensive power
that
> affects only one power (Ego Attack), maybe BOECV EB. Damage Reduction is
a
> kind of defense, and if Mental Defense applies against Telepathy and Mind
> Control, Mental Damage Reduction will, too.
Good point. I hadn't considered basing what would be reduced by what would
be reduced by Mental Defense. What I >was< considering was the paragraph
that reads, "Normal Damage Reduction acts against normal, AVLD, and NND
attacks. Resistant Damage Reduction affects normal, AVLD, NND, and Killing
Attacks." (HSR, pg 61)
Seems pretty straightforward to me. I don't own the Ultimate Mentalist,
though; does that book have anything specific to say on the matter?
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony
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Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 18:45:34 -0700
To: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Tunnelling
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>So, 'X' points worth of Tunneling to create a tunnel, +10 points to fill it
>in behind you, with the assumption that the "fill" is readily perceptible
>(i.e., solid concrete wall is now a big pile of concrete chunks,
>grass-covered topsoil is now a mass of rocks, roots and bare dirt), and an
>IPE Advantage if [the visible portion of] the tunnel is [to the casual
>viewer] restored to its original condition when the tunnel closes behind
>the tunneler. So far, so good.
Im not convinced this is neccessarily the case, especially if the PC took
invisible power effects on tunnelling... it doesnt state fills hole with
damaged version of material... it just fills it. And one of the rules of
Champions is that special effects determines how each power manifests its
self.
One character might dig through things like a mole, leaving rubble in his
path packed in, one might actually make the matter intangible, allowing the
PCS to walk through it and rematerializing it... one might even displace
that material with teleporation and return it. These last two choises would
NOT leave a recognizable path.
>I have read virtually none of the posts for this thread, so forgive me if
>this has already been covered, but: if you assume Tunneling does not
>actually restore the area behind the tunneler to its original condition
>(whether or not it appears that way to a casual viewer at the now-closed
>tunnel entrance), might there be situations in which the filled-in area has
>reduced DEF as a result of having been Tunneled?
See above. I would NEVER rule the defense is lowered in any case, the
material tunneled through is not altered by the power in any way except by
special effect (scorched by fire based, etc).
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 19:41:26 -0700
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On Saturday, May 02, 1998 12:42 AM, happyelf wrote:
>At 11:39 PM 5/1/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>On Friday, May 01, 1998 9:43 PM, happyelf wrote:
>>
<snip some good clarifications on what he was saying, which I mostly
agree with.)
>
>><snip>
>>>Yes it is. if it's special effect is 'indestructable', then it is.
>>
>>IF the GM agrees, and IF you never have to use the character with
>>another GM. Your way is _not_ tournament legal.
>>
>
>And his is? To tag a 120 points onto the plot device 'indestructable'
is
>not tournament-legal.
As much of this discussion concerns a power which the proponents want
to make official, then their way would, if they get their way, be
tournament legal.
<snip>
>
>And which is a more valid construct, once we dispese with the
>anally-retentive absolute term 'invunerability'
>insisted upon thus far? I started with
>this statement: THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES IN HERO.
Ridiculous. I can't believe how often this is claimed, as it is not
only clearly false, but some of the examples are annoying to me.
Life Support is an absolute. If I buy immunity to cold for my Yeti,
then my Yeti is uneffected by wading in liquid hydrogen. If immune to
aging, he will never grow old. Both absolutes, which make it difficult
to create such simple things as a coat or a man who will live roughly
300 years before aging gets him. Given the cheapness of the Life
Support, limitations on these are rather silly and give too much
granularity.
Darkness is another absolute. No matter how much light there is, in
Darkness you are always in absolute blackness. True, you could define
very bright lights as "Suppress: Darkness", but I could define my
super laser as being an NND RKA, claiming that no defense is strong
enough to stop it. Either one dodges the issue.
<snip>
Filksinger
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Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 21:46:00 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
Reply-To: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sat, 2 May 1998, happyelf wrote:
> At 12:01 AM 5/2/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >And what if the 'invulnerable' character jumped in front of a train?
> >Would you have said 'ah, he's invulnerable' and let him take no damage, or
> >would he have taken a lot of damage?
>
> The former. That's why the call it a plot concept.
So in that game, invulnerability cost (if I remember your previous post
correctly) 30 points.
- Isn't that too low a cost for such a /powerful/ power? Isn't he getting
more than what he paid for? Isn't that your problem with the whole
concept of invulnerability?
- Contrariwise, isn't saying 'well, 20 PD is invulnerable, I'll let him
withstand being hit by a train' undermining the very mechanics of the
system that you think 100% DR would destroy?
- And isn't the character 'boring' because he's 'immortal' now?
> >OK. And how does adding 100% DR undermine this? The cost is extrapolated
> >from existing costs, so it certainly doesn't make the game mechanics
> >'uncohesive'.
>
> Yes it does. It undemines the princible of getting what you pay for,
<cough> And your 'plot device' concept doesn't do that just as badly, if
not worse?
> and requires the gm to exercise a completly different type of
> control over who buys what powers.
?? Well, maybe your GMs are different down there. It certainly seems
like your play style is very different, from the way you say that true
invulnerability is some kind of sin against all that is holy.
> And the cost is not extrapolated.
> Damage reductuion bases itself on the princible that 100% is unobtainable.
You know, I can almost buy this, especially in conjunction with the other
post that suggested another logical way of extrapolating the table (1/4,
1/2, 3/4, 7/8, 15/16, etc). This is, in fact, more valuable input than
anything else you've said, because it challenges some of the logical
assumptions I've made and offers an alternative, instead of saying 'NO!
You CAN'T do THAT! That's BAD!'
> no actually rimmer from rd dwarf was invunerable in series six-
> but it still hurt when people hit him.
Not very invulnerable by my standards, then.
> I though you said invunerability means you don't take damage?
> feeling pain is another matter entirely. hmmmmmmmm a doesn't apn have a lot
> to do with stun?
And stun is what? Say it all together, class...'stun /damage/'. Yes,
that's right, stun is a form of damage.
> >> and is not limited to a particular 'special effect' at
> >> such nitense levels. If you are immune to nuclear explosions, at ground
> >> zero you're still going to get flung about a kilometre and die when you
> >> hit the ground,
> >
> >That's knockback. Damage Reduction doesn't affect that.
>
> Yes, but it's a concept inherent in the attack. I say again i though you
> say invunerable means you don't take any damage from an attack?
^^^
(sigh) Maybe I'm being pedantic, but I'd say it's perfectly clear.
Joe-Bob attacks Invulnerable-to-Energy Man with his EB.
Invulnerable-to-Energy Man takes no damage from being hit with Joe-Bob's
waves of energy, but he is thrown 100 yard through the air. At the end of
his short flight, he slams into the earth, and takes damage.
Please note that Invulnerable-to-Energy Man is taking damage from slamming
into the Earth, not from the energy of the blast directly.
Using your logic, you should apply ED to knockback damage from an energy
attack. (Well, it's damage done by the energy attack, isn't it?)
> I'm talking about a rl equivalent. Invunerability is unobtainable.
Thank you, Mr. State-the-Obvious man. So is a 12d6 EB firing from the
eyes. So is regeneration. So is FTL Travel. Yet all of these things are
in the game.
> >> So when being invunerable to fire, one is also invunerable to
> >> fragments of metal
> >
> >No, obviously not, but the typical 'flame blast' power doesn't include
> >fragments of metal. These magical fragments of metal aren't going to
> >appear all the time - only in certain circumstances. That's why there's a
> >GM, to handle stuff like that.
>
> actually i think i gave a few other examples, which you neglected to note. .
That was your first example...the rest are down below. I believe I dealt
with all of them.
> .yet.
> most of them apply in almost all circumstances. And there is usually one thing
> or another. Hence it is valid to allow a degree of stun of some sort at least.
> This is far more plausable then what you are suggesting. Also, if an
> invunerable
> guy gets hit by ANY high-energy effect, he better have life support, as well.
> >In a comic book setting, I'd only use these fragments of metal if someone
> >deliberately tried to create/use them - i.e. 'Oh no! Pyron is immune to my
> >flame blast power! Maybe if I cause that propane tank next to him to
> >explode, he'll be harmed by the shrapnel!' (aims at tank, boom, etc)
>
> *sigh* first you say non-comic book settings are suport for invunerability...
> now this.
At no time did I ever say non-comic-book settings are the /only/ support
for invulnerability. Please stop trying to put words in my mouth.
If you are trying to say 'these effects would occur in a 'realistic'
setting, you have some validity there. But then again, if you wanted a
'realistic' setting, perhaps you wouldn't allow complete invulnerability
at all, since it is, as you point out, an inherently unrealistic power.
If, for example, I were doing a Wild Cards campaign, I would probably do
as you suggest - use 75% DR and high PD/ED - and chalk any damage up to
things that aren't covered by the invulnerability.
If I were doing a very epic game, then it would hardly be in genre for
Invulnerable Man to take damage from the things he is invulnerable to, and
it would seem pretty darn silly to me and the players if he were
nickel-and-dimed to unconsciousness by attacks that his character concept
sai he shouldn't have been hurt by.
> >> , sudden trauma from temperature changes(maybe)
> >
> >Isn't that part of how fire damages people?
>
> My point exactly: what does 'immune to fire' cover?
Well, I'd say: damage from fire attacks. If you hade 'immune to fire'
but not LS: Heat, then you would take no damage from a 12d6 'flame
blast' EB, but you could be damaged by a 3d6 NND 'heat wave' attack, or
even by just walking through the desert. Why? I dunno, depends on the
character. Maybe he has a magic ring of fire resistance or a blessing
from the gods.
> you could argue that,
> since heat is just molecular agitation, soeone with this immunity would be
> so immune to being punched also- it's all kinetic transference.
Now /this/ is cheese. It's even cheesier than trying to say 'well, being
punched is damage through kinetic energy, so why shouldn't I use my
/Energy/ Defense?'
> >Of course, if someone truly wanted to be 'invulnerable to fire' I'd
> >suggest they also buy LS: Intense Heat...
>
> Yes. .. but you just said 'immune to fire' means you can't take
> damage from fire. In that case how would you explain someone
> with 100%red and NO ls?
That's the player's job, not mine. I'm not about to say 'that shouldn't
exist just because /I/ can't think of an SFX for it.' I can't think of
SFX for 'indirect Running' either, but that doesn't mean I'll say it's
impossible to explain or purchase in my campaign.
> okay let's say '100% red vs fire attacks',
> but that still doesn't wash.
There's an Arabian tale (I think) about a blacksmith who was given a
blessing, that he would never be burned by any fire. This would probably
be an example of 100% DR vs fire, but no LS: Heat.
> You're basing your suggestion on a
> scenario- a character who does not take damage from X.
> But the problem is that they're bound to take damage from x
> in some ways unless you reduce it to pure game mechanics
> (as in immune to attacks with X as special effect) in which
> case it is no longer valid to argue from anything but a mechanics-
> based perspective.
Which is /exactly/ what I'm talking about - I'm going at this from a
mechanics-based perspective, and you're not.
> >> pressure changes,
> >
> >See above, on metal fragments.
>
> no, again you speak of game mechanics when i'm speaking
> of reality. You base your concept on pure rules-logic,
> the problem is your logic is flawed. These are all good
> reasons why someone who is (sfx) indesructable to X
> would still take a few stun from an attack with X
> as a special effect, but you continue to speak in
> pure game mechanics.
In a discussion about game mechanics. Gosh, who woulda thought?
Actually, my point is that your hyper-realistic reasons don't match my
play style or the source material I use for my games.
In addition, all of your examples seem to me to be rationalizations
because you don't like the concept of someone who is invulnerable to
something. If I bought 300 rED instead of Invulnerable to Energy, I would
more than likely take no damage from your hypothetical metal fragments,
even though they're physical damage, and would logically hurt both
characters based on their concept...tell me, is that logical from your
realistic standpoint?
> Frankly i think you have no intrest
> in the role-playing concept at all, this is about
> pumping superdood full of cheese.
Frankly, I think you're resorting to insulting the playing style of a
person you've never gamed with and don't even know, because...well...I'm
not sure /why/ you're finding it necessary to employ that kind of tactic,
and I'm not going to speculate on it, for fear that it would make my
behavior as objectionable as yours.
> NO, the INFINITE CONCEPT is the matter best left to roleplay. And no matter how
> often you do it, being envloped in green energy is going to give you a moments
> distraction. That equates to a few stun quite easily.
Hm, so if I get distracted a lot I'll eventually fall unconscious?
> >Yes, stun /damage/ - note key word 'damage' here, as in the stuff you
> >shouldn't take when you're invulnerable. Otherwise, you get stuff like
> >'Well, yeah, I'm invulnerable to fire. Except it can knock me out.' which
> >is pretty silly if you ask me.
>
> Stun is stun. It can be portrayed many different ways, many having
> nothing to do with damage. For instance you burn stun after you
> exaust end, that isn't some invisible pixie slapping you around for
> exceeding you quota.
No, its you pushing yourself hard enough that it could potentially knock
you unconscious - going past your limits, basically. However, being hit
by an attack has nothing to do with pushing or burning STUN for END.
> And you can get
> 'Well, yeah, I'm invulnerable to fire. Except it can knock me out.'
> anyway, from a guy with no life support, or a dozen other things.
Yeah, but those people have purchased their powers in a way that they have
basically said 'Yeah, I realize that I could be knocked out or whatever by
stuff I'm invulnerable to, that's OK'. If a player wants that, fine. If
a player doesn't want that, that's fine by my book too - but apparently it
isn't in yours.
> >> >Someone who is invulnerable to energy damage should be able to stand in
> >> >the way of the Death Star planet-destroying laser and not get hurt at all
> >>
> >> -including by being flung through a planet? heh. my point exactly.
> >
> >This is knockback, which (as stated before) is not affected by Damage
> >Reduction.
>
> You just said 'WITHOUT GETTING HURT AT ALL.'
OK, OK, 'without getting hurt at all by the laser itself'. Happy?
> When a bullet kills you
> it often doesn't do so from the tissue damage, but the shock. Both are
> involved in the attack, however it is valid to say that the impact ot a
> superlaser is INHERENTLY involved in the concept of the damage it casues.
Gosh, if it does damage by a physical impact, maybe it should be a
physical attack. Or a combined physical/energy attack.
> >So explain again how this is 'cheating' and 'getting an immense ability
> >without paying the points for it'? Aren't you the one telling me that I'd
> >/basically/ have it if I spent an equal number of points on another power?
>
> No not an equal number, an infinite amount more.
Actually, no, you said 'buy stuff in the book and call it
invulnerability'. You also said that it was worth 20 points in your
pulp-era game, because you'd let the guy with 20 rPD get hit by a train
and take no damage because he's invulnerable.
> >> Like it or not, a guy who gives moff tarkin's little toy
> >> the laugh is built on a hell of a lot of points.
> >
> >120 points is a hell of a lot to spend on a defense, and probably exceeds
> >most campaigns' AP limits.
>
> No. A starting super can afford that in theory.
If he's blatantly deficient in other areas.
> and AP limits are
> not a valid guage of power level.
Stop the presses, notify all the Champions players, we've been /completely
wrong/ all these years!
> You can set them wherever you
> want and call it 'expensive', but really expense is total cp -
> cost of power. 120 pts say -1/4 for 'only vs fire'
I'd call it a -1 in most superhero games, but that's not the main issue
here.
> is
> 90 points. which frankly is birdseed. oops, i mean chicken feed. whatever.
So you've spent 60 points on a power - or 90, in your example. Now you
can't be harmed by fire. 90% of the attacks out there will still do
damage to you, though. You're hardly godlike or unbalancing.
> a high-power character (375 pts) can buy all three for 360 and still
> have change left for str and some dex.
15 whole points, yup. And when he can't hit any of his high-powered
opponents, attack from a distance,
> >Which would let the laser fly right through the image and strike the
> >planet, and would be compeltely useless against area effect attacks.
> >Er...no.
>
> no. . .the image would be to make you look like your bouncing it off the
> chestige...
Say /what/? Um...OK. I must admit, I haven't the foggiest clue what
you're talking about here.
Dodge would move you out of the way of the beam, so you don't get hit.
Image would make it look like you 'bounced it off your chest',
but...well...you /didn't/, and whatever was behind you is still destroyed.
Unless you're giving out powers for free, that is.
> and human-sized target culd not blaock a superlaser without some sort of
> force wall. the superlaser on the prototype deathstar in the jedi academy novels
> completly envloped the sun crusher, so no a human is too small. And an area
> effect couldn't be blocked in this way anyhow.
Of course, you're arguing this specific argument rather than the general
one. Fine, let's scale it down, then. We've got a giant megalaser that's
going to vaporize Air Force One. It does 10d6 damage or so. It's not Area
Effect, it's...oh, I dunno. Armor Piercing and Penetrating.
Character A is invulnerable to Energy (100% rEDR), he flies in front of
the laser and saves the President's plane without being scratched - just
like his character concept of 'invulnerable to energy'. Character B has
75% rEDR and 40 rED. He flies in front of the laser, and takes an average
of 3 BODY and 17 STUN. Wow, he's not very invulnerable is he? If the
villain had gotten the maximum damage roll, he'd be taking 10 BODY, 70
STUN, and be merrily on his way to the hospital.
Now, the question that is really at the root of this all is: is
'Invulnerable to X' too powerful? I don't think so. You do.
> >> or just dodge with the special effect that it 'bounces off his chest'?
> >
> ><laugh> So you're telling me to spend 5 points for a power that you think
> >120 points is too cheap for? In any case, that would allow the power to
> >be defeated by having a more accurate weapon. "I'm invulnerable, except to
> >sniper rifles!" Er...no, again.
>
> Well buy scads of dcv bonuses. say. .5 pts for doge, +20 dcv fo 100 points.
> It's within the rules, and it's a better idea than giving points for infinity.
And if you're unconscious or surprised, you're at 0 DCV. "I'm
invulnerable, if I'm aware of the attack."
Actually, Dodge is a pretty poor mechanic for invulnerability, since it
doesn't stop the attack at all - you can't shield Jane DNPC with your
body.
Like any of the other solutions you've proposed, it's viable for a certain
limited type of 'invulnerability', but not for true invulnerability.
> >> with
> >> such high
> >> power levels, it wouldn't make much of a difference wether you dodge or black
> >> as to what damage the effect does to stuff behind you, and if your worried
> >> about that
> >> buy missle deflection.
> >
> >Except that it's again useless against area effect attacks - and also
> >against hand-to-hand attacks. "I'm invulnerable, unless someone punches
> >me." No.
>
> there is such a thing as bying MORE THAN ONE POWER to depict a sfx power?
> And if it's an area effect attack as i said you couldn't block it from
> hitting the planet anyway, since area effects are not linear.
You're combining two separate arguments here. OK, lets say that we do a
'block/deflect' type of invulnerability - scads of levels with block and
missile deflection.
Grond comes and whacks you with a car. Squish. Not invulnerable.
Sipristi the ninja sneaks up on you while you're a sleep and plants a
knife in your ribcage. Not invulnerable.
Do you see the problems I have with this suggestion now?
> >> Why not buy a dispel of supress whose special effect is
> >> 'the attack fails to cause any damage', for probably a big discount for
> >> being limited
> >> to you, ect?
> >
> >Dispel or Suppress take a half-phase attack action to perform, for one.
>
> then buy speed and weedle an intercept out of the gm. or prepare in advance-
> again this is lateral vs linear thinking.
See above block/deflect example. Doesn't work when you're unconscious,
etc. I suppose you /could/ buy it 0 end persistent always on or
something. If you used Dispel then your invulnerability would be
all-or-nothing. And you'd have the odd thing that you wouldn't be as
invulnerable to things that are 'difficult to dispel'.
> Here's my official take on invunerable to laser weapons(as in superlasers,
> fer instaance):
>
> missle defleion, + 5 speed only to use missle deflection, (and stuff like
> always on, ect)
I won't even get into how discusting this would make the combat rounds.
No thank you, I'll use by 100% DR idea and get through my combats without
getting a migraine.
> 75% redr, rdr.
> full life support.
Invulnerable to lasers means you don't age, sleep, breathe, die horribly
in a vacuum? Yes, very logical.
> 600 rep
> 600 red,
>
> all these bought with 'only vs x.'.
LS: Doesn't Age, only vs. lasers?
> And besides, the real reason my ideas aren';t acceptable are:
>
> A) you like your idea
>
> and
>
> B) being indestructable my way places it far out of the
> reach of low power characters, as it should be.
Well, gosh, thanks you, your Telepathic Majesty. I'll let you argue my
side as well, since you seem to think you can read my mind.
Actually, your ideas aren't acceptable because they don't do what I want
them to do. It's that simple.
> No, by points level he is out of his league. by points level if you want
> to include an invunerable guy in your game, then it costs bulk points.
> Deal with it. if a player says he wants his pc to be invunerable to
> the nth degree, and you agree, then give him extra points. The other players
> might not like it, but it's preferable to lying about how much the power is
> worth, at least they know where they stand.
Of course (as has been pointed out to me in the past), points levels have
very little relation to how much something is worth. If you buy lots of
energy defense, and everyone you meet in the campaign is a martial artist
or a brick, then your points in ED aren't worth the same amount of points
in PD.
> >> character A shouldn't exist. and
> >> they're both toast from hittig the planet.
> >
> >You're fixated on this knockback thing, aren't you? If it makes you feel
> >better, assume they have enough flight and/or knockback resistance to
> >avoid the effects. Or assume that the DSSL is bought with 'no knockback'
> >- it basically vaporizes what it hits, so there wouldn't be any knockback
> >anyway. I never saw ships or planets getting pushed around by it in the
> >movies...
>
> um, they went caboom.
Yes, they went kaboom. They didn't fly backwards for several miles and
then go kaboom, as they would/should have if they were hit by a laser that
size that did knockback.
> in support of you, the sun crusher didn't budge
> whe it got hit, but it was invunerable- so i guess being invunerable
> DOES include knockback resistance *eg*
Well, not in my book. Whatever this 'sun crusher' is, it probably had
some other reason for not moving. Either the superlaser does no knockback
(or maybe it has -1/4, only does knockdown) or the Sun Crusher has enough
knockback resistance or flight to avoid the effects.
> as opposed to 'i'm invunerable and it only cost me 120 points!
> wow that gm is a sucker!' and hell, it'll get past 100% guy anyway, unless
> he's giant sized.
Well, we're really arguing 'should he be hurt' - the whole Death Star
scenario was just an excuse to bring a honkin' big energy weapon into the
picture. Send the superhero to the Gundam Universe and put him in front of
a mech with a beam rifle and a beam sabre if you like.
> And if you like, just buy 600 red or however much, plus
> 75% redg.
> That's what it takes, you get what you paid for.
I guess I'm just going on the principle of diminishing returns. It
doesn't really bother me to say a character is invulnerable to energy, or
whatever. As a GM, I can get around that without being cheesy and having
him be affected by energy weapons anyway (cf metal fragments and similar
stuff above). I think 120 points is basically sufficient for this because
it's a hell of an expenditure when you consider that its twice what most
people in a normal Champions game will be spending on defense (and /far/
more than people in the average Fantasy Hero game would spend on it), and
99% of the time, an equal amount of rED would have stopped the damage cold
anyway.
> i'd rather have a character who is positive he's invunerable,
> but his player still has to gamble, yes? still heroic?
> still has a POINT?
100% rEDR would be pointless in a game where the only attacks were energy
based. It'd blow there, because you'd be invulnerable to anything.
Fortunately this is not the case in any game I've ever run. There are
innumerable challenges that could face the player whose character is
invulnerable to energy, and plenty of opportunities to roleplay. I hardly
think the power makes then a GOD and it certainly doesn't make them
impossible to defeat. And if the character isn't omnipotent, and has
plenty of roleplaying opportunities, then how can he have no point?
> >In any case, /if/ character B /was/ 'invulnerable to energy' as part of
> >his concept, leaping in front of the superlaser is a viable thing to do.
> >But, he's not invulnerable. Just tough.
>
> No-one in the universe is completly cofident of never being harmed.
> And again the gm can still just plot device it if he wants, it is
> far preferable to letting loose the monster you suggest.
Hmm. The only reason I as a GM can see for 'plot devicing' it is in case
I wanted to change my mind later and hose the character by saying 'guess
what! You're mysteriously and for no reason not invulnerable to energy
anymore, because I said so'. I'd rather keep the respect of my players.
If I don't want them to have it, I'll tell them they can't buy it up
front, instead of leading them on and then springing that fact on them
later.
> Then i never will. If you don't get how this changes the system for the worse,
> then i'd suggest your not useing the mechanics at all. you're just making
> stuff up and attaching mechanics-based rationalisations. Why not just
> go free improv?
Because the mechanics are still useful to me, and I don't believe that
they are destroyed because I let the possibility of this power arise.
> Yes. .not let people. you expect the gm to place a type of
> control on character creation which will ruin the game for
> pretty much every player.
Oh, yeah, my game is ruined every time the GM says 'no, you can't have
that.' I guess we should let all the people in a Cyber HERO game buy
Transform Person to Frog, because it's in the main rules.
If complete invulnerability wouldn't fit the genre or tone of the
campaign, DON'T USE IT. Simple. Effective. No different than what any
normal logical HERO GM would do in similar circumstances.
> Yes the gm should look at ap, and
> stop signs and such, and approve of reject powers,
> but this is entirely differnt than
> placing a power which pretty much says 'thou art god'
I've got a real problem with you claiming that this power makes you a god.
It doesn't. It makes you immune to one type of damage, that's it.
> in the book and then not letting people use it, or
> letting them if the mood takes you. i say again,
> if you are looking fot that level of gm control, you're
> better off making up sheets in purely freeform terms.
So in your games, the GMs don't ever say 'don't take these powers'? They
don't take the tone and genre into account? If I were going to run a game
based on the Tomorrow People, I'd say 'here are the types of powers you
should take. Here are the types of powers you /shouldn't/ take, because
they don't match the genre.'
Completel invulnerability is not for every campaign. But it is a viable
power in /some/ campaigns. HERO doesn't currently allow for that.
> >I'd be happy to 'let it be a story
> >concept', but if my GM and I agreed on that - 'look, I want this character
> >to be completely invulnerable to fire damage, is that OK with you?'
> >'Sure.' - then I think I would be justifiably upset if he decided that I
> >was going to take damage from being hit by a big fire attack, because I
> >only had 80 rED.
>
> Here we are- through you said you were the gm?
This is all hypothetical.
> And couldn't a gm decide that
> anyway, reguardless of the power involved?
Sure, if he wanted to be completely capricious. Heck, you could say that
JimBob got damaged by that 10-year-old's 1d6 punch, even though he's got
20 rPD, as long as you wanted to be a complete prat and ignore the rules.
Mind you, if any GM did that, I'd be hard pressed to find the reason or
motivation to play in any of their games.
> You are asking to give a player the power to veto the gm's decisions.
> A player with a character with this power could quite rightly say
>
> "Hey, you said billstorm cannot be hurt by fire attack powers? well a fire guy
> just blasted the pavement abd the rebound hurt me, but that couldn't
> happen becasue the guy used a (all together now) fire attack power to
> inflict the damage!
Yeah, and you could say that if you were using a 10d6 EB vs 100 ED, too.
Your point is hardly restricted to the invulnerability issue - it's more a
'do you have a fair GM or not'.
> HERO can be played in an almost 'minatures' manner with the
> gm pitching the villains against the heros, but ONLY becasue the powers
> are balanced and AVOID absolute values! you are suggesting that
> during such a style of play some of the combatants should have infinite
> value, and that is just not valid.
Wel, I don't see it as 'infinite' becase the power will not let you create
a character that cannot be harmed in any way. I guess FireGuy would be
generally in trouble when fighting Invulnerable-to-Energy Man, but then
he'd just have to think a little. (Gosh, we wouldn't want that, would
we? It might inspire...role-playing!)
> >> But supers are motal. unless you give them in infinite defence.
> >> Powered is fine, ultra-immensly-unbeatably powered, now THAT'S hoohey.
> >
> >Now, wasn't my original post all about the fact that even someone with
> >100% Physical, Energy, /and/ Mental Damage Reduction wasn't 'unbeatably
> >powered'? In fact, I listed a bunch of powers and things that could
> >affect them.
>
> yeah, but you were wrong.
Wrong in what aspect?
That they were not unbeatable?
- Transform, Invulnerable Superhero to Frog.
- Suppress Super Powers (the famous anti-mutant gun idea)
- Entangle
Gosh, any of those powers would let you beat them. So I guess I wasn;t
wrong there.
> such a person is unearthly powered.
They're very powerful, yes. I never said they weren't.
On the other hand, someone who spent the same amount of points on an
attack would have a 72d6 Energy Blast or a 24d6 Killing Attack. That's
pretty unearthly right there.
> they have an infinite value as part of their power mechanics descriptions,
> they are too powerful.
Here's where we disagree. I don't think they are too powerful. I don't
think my players think they're too powerful. There are certain very
specialized cases where they would be 'too powerful', but those cases are
the exception and not the rule.
> It should be a plot device
Which somehow makes it not 'too powerful'?
> or properly bought with points (as
> opposed to being attached to ataken sum).
Which there is no way to do, as you have so aptly demonstrated with your
many examples.
> >> Becasue the gm can change his mind.
> >
> >Thus opening the way for lots of bad feelings between him and the
> >player...
>
> Let me get this straight- in order to please your player, you have to let his
> pc be invunerable and NEVER take it back?
No, in order to please a player I have to be up-front and honest with him.
Not jerking him around by saying 'you're invulnerable...no, you're
not...yes, you are'.
> Comics use the phrase 'night invunerable' for a reason.
Well, the Tick uses it. (Actually, he uses 'nigh invulnerable' but I
think that's what you meant - unless you have some kind of Aussie
superhero who can't be harmed except when the sun is in the sky) But then
again, the Tick is a comedy/parody comic, too. He's 'nigh invulnerable'
because its funnier that way.
> If you are suggestig that
> this travesty of a power is valid simply to placate a player who wants to be
> the ultimate 'pro from dover', than i doubt any of your arguments are valid,
> since they exist simply as rationalisation of that objective.
Well, the place I'll be using it is in 'Final Fantasy HERO'. In the
genre, there are plenty of creatures that are 'invulnerable to X', magic
items that give the power, etc.
I /could/ go through and figure out the maximum damage anyone with ever do
with an attack of type X, but honestly, that's going to be a) a lot of
work, and b) it'd give misleading results for a lot of things anyways,
because they'll be facing it at a time when they won't be able to do that
much damage to it.
> >> and by quantifying such a power
> >> you open the way for powergamers extreme, and shift such concepts
> >> from the gm's call (where things like omnipotence, ect belong)
> >> to a part of character creation.
> >
> >I'm of the opinion that you should design for the real players of the
> >game. If you try to munchkin-proof a game, you will only succeed in
> >limiting the honest players.
>
> That's juat silly.
And that's just unsupported.
> And frankly wanting to be completly invunerable when you
> have the choice t be nigh-invunerable and have your character and everyone
> else act like they are (hence allowing any possible ROLEPLAYING concepts)
> is nothing more than powergaming.
> >The GM has the easiest way in the world to stop the use of this power.
> >Say 'There's a 60 AP limit on defenses'. On the other hand, the GM that
> >/wants/ effects like this to be around can have it and use it.
>
> No. For one thing not everyone uses ap limits,
Then they should expect this and other completely 'abusive' things like
the 72d6 EB I mentioned before.
> for another, as i already
> said this goes WAY beyond concepts like disallowing damge reduction and FTLm,
> or even high-damage attacks. Nothing can compare to this power, so from a
> points based perspective it is no power at all.
Oh, I dunno. 24d6 RKA...average of 84 body...that'll just about vaporize
anyone. Hell, let's say that it will, as a 'plot device' - that's what
you want me to do with invulnerability, right?
Honestly, the only time this would be a points crock is if you were
regularly running games where the average DC of attacks is greater than 16
or so, because at any lower level, you could buy a combination of PD/ED
and Defense that would stop the attacks cold.
> >If the GM is so weak as to let powergamers run roughshod over him, he
> >needs to get a backbone, not rely on the protection of the rulebook.
>
> Funny, you're the one going on about players getting upset about having their
> invnuerability taken away, and so forth.
And, of course, you know that they're upset because they're really just
powergamers, instead of people wanting to be treated fairly by their GM.
Right.
> The rule book exists for a reason,
> and in such an extreme case it should not be a gm call as to wether such a
> power
> mechanic can be used. rather, put it as a plot device as it should be,
> completly
> under the gm's control.
Are you saying that powers are not completely under the GM's control? The
GM is somehow not allowed to say 'you can't have that'? You're not really
getting anything by making it a plot device, except maybe the ability to
screw your players over and have something to soothe your conscience over
it (well it was in the rules...).
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
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Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 21:53:34 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Nur al-Allah
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Fri, 1 May 1998, John and Ron Prins wrote:
> >> >100+ Disadvantages
> >> >10 Distinctive Features: Glows green, especially when speaking
> >>
> >> Uh, Mike, if green is the color of Allah, this shouldn't be a disadvantage,
> >> but a Change Environment, should it not?
> >
> >Actually, I'd just call it circumstances making a disadvantage useful -
> >similar to how a Reputation can aid a Presence Attack, even though it's
> >technically a disadvantage.
>
> Er, no, because glowing green in an Islamic society is _really_ useful. It's
> pretty much a 'holy aura', isn't it? Yes, it has its disadvantages, but I
> think the up side is too large to be simply handwaved as turning a
> disadvantage to your advantage. It's a useful power, and should be paid for.
I can buy this, but I really doubt that Change Environment is the power
you'd want to use there. Look at the effect the power would have - the
guy would be considered 'holy' by Muslims who are inclined to believe in
such things, and so they'd be more likely to listen to him and take him
seriously.
I'd say it should be a bonus to PRE, with some sort of limitation to
represent that it only affects some people - probably a -1 or so. And
it'd have 'visible power effects' too - glowing green. (That would
account for him glowing brighter when he's preaching, too - he's actively
using more of his PRE...)
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
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Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Horsebites
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 20:16:11 -0700
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On Saturday, May 02, 1998 6:24 PM, Bryant Berggren wrote:
>An odd thought which hit me today, looking over a character someone
created ...
>
>According to the stats listed on p. 197 of the BBB, a typical horse
has a
>1d6+1 HKA, Reduced Penetration, to represent a bite attack.
>
>City boy that I am, I admit to general ignorance about matters
equestrian,
>but ... against an average, unarmored person, this would mean one
bite from
>a horse would leave him at 1 BODY -- a lucky roll would leave him
/dying/.
I take it you are assuming that the horse is adding his STR to the
bite, as otherwise the number would be considerably smaller.
>So, I'm wondering if anyone knows ... are there a lot of fatalities
out
>there in the real world resulting from horse bites? :^] Strict
injuries,
>mind you, not infections or other side consequences.
No. This number is ridiculously high. Either horse bites should be
much lower in damage, or they should be normal attacks. Maybe both.
Filksinger
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Date: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 03:53 PM