Week Ending May 9, 1998
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo topaz.cqu.edu.au from jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au server @topaz.cqu.EDU.AU ip 138.77.1.3
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 13:19:59 +1000 (EST)
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 100% DR Debate
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:28 AM 5/2/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
> Well, the impossible has happened.
>
> Someone more obstinent than Rat has arisen.
>
> Happyelf, consider yourself flattered that I compare you to Rat.
>He at least uses some reason and logic to support himself -- you use
>assumptions based on "I like it in a certain way."
>
> (Rat does do the latter, but backs it up. Your posts have not.)
>
Look, it's not my problem if my logic wooshes right over your head. How about,
when you come across such a post, you try and understand it instead being
defensive
and calling names? Frankly my posts were based on the mechanical princibels
which hero
is basedupon. I realise this is a change from the loopholing and meaningless
numbercrunching which dominates much of the list, but it's no reason for you
to become offended. Frankly if you can't see the logic behind my arguments,
you most likely won't understand this post becasue it uses numerous words of
more than one syllable.
>
> -Tim Gilberg
>
> -"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
>
>
>
"enslve humanity willya?"
Core Alpha PBEM http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/3306/Pbem.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo attach1.rocketmail.com from daleaward@rocketmail.com server @attach1.rocketmail.com ip 205.180.57.81
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 20:23:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dale Ward <daleaward@rocketmail.com>
Subject: Re: Horsebites
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Greetings,
---Bryant Berggren wrote:
>
> City boy that I am, I admit to general ignorance about matters equestrian,
> but ... against an average, unarmored person, this would mean one bite from
> a horse would leave him at 1 BODY -- a lucky roll would leave him /dying/.
>
> So, I'm wondering if anyone knows ... are there a lot of fatalities out
> there in the real world resulting from horse bites? :^] Strict injuries,
> mind you, not infections or other side consequences.
Horse bites are very painful, if only because they bite so damned hard!
However, I have never heard of one being fatal. Barring a critical hit on the
throat, I'd say it would be highly unlikely at best.
As for what it feels like, try slamming a car door on one of your butt
cheeks! Not the whole cheek... just enough to pinch about a fist-sized chunk.
Dale A. Ward
[Did Somebody Say *BLOW UP* McDonald's?]
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo topaz.cqu.edu.au from jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au server @topaz.cqu.EDU.AU ip 138.77.1.3
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 13:51:15 +1000 (EST)
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 07:59 AM 5/2/98 -0700, you wrote:
>At 02:11 PM 5/2/1998 +1000, happyelf wrote:
>>>Oh, this is even easier than 'why would you need it in supers?'. I'd use
>>>it as a part of an 'immune to magic' package. In fact, I'll be using it
>>>in my Final Fantasy HERO game, because creatures being 100% immune to a
>>>particular effect are part of the genre.
>>
>>Um, the levels of points ar lower, 75% reduction should do it, toss
>>in a bit of pd or whatever. Frankly it functions as a plot device anyway,
>>you shouldn't add it to points totals, there's no reason to. Just write
>>'invuerable to X' in the notes section, i ask you, what is the diffence?
>>You've asked me that, but it just occured to me that since my theory is
>>the incumbent, the burden of evidence lies with you.
>
> Let's back up to a couple of things that have already been presented:
>flying into the sun, and interposing oneself in front of the Death Star.
> Cohesion has 100% resistant Energy Damage Reduction. If he interposes
>himself in front of the Death Star's 50d6 RKA planet destructor beam, he
>takes no damage. He takes butt-busting Knockback, but he takes no damage.
>He can also fly into the sun, with its 100d6 Killing environment (an
>admittedly arbitrary figure there) and suffer little in the way of ill
>effects.
As i said, 'the levels of points are lower (hence) 75% should do it'.
My logic here was that in a heroic level campaign people will not be
flying into the sun or bodysurfing superlasers, and if they do it
exists as part of the gm's notes on the setting, not the character sheet.
> Indestructor has 75% resistant Energy Damage Reduction and 20 rPD. What
>happens when he interposes himself in front of the Death Star's 50d6 RKA?
>Well, mechanically speaking, he'd take 2 BODY and 112 STUN from an average
>roll (at least, according to my quick calculations). What happens when he
>flies into the sun, with its 100d6 Killing environment? I calculate 82.5
>BODY and 228 STUN from an average roll.
> Seems pretty different to me.
>
again, you have most likely accidentally taken the comment out of context.
The post above was with reguards to a HEROIC level campaign.
>>>> I repeat, a set of powers that give high defence CAN BE defined as
>>>> indesructable.
>>>
>>>Even though it's not.
>>
>>Yes it is. if it's special effect is 'indestructable', then it is.
>
> So according to you, Indestructor would walk out of the above situations
>unscathed, even though the mechanics say he shouldn't?
> Well, that's your decision for your game, and nobody with any sense
>should try to argue that you're doing it "wrong." Some of us prefer to run
>such things more strictly by the rules, though.
>
Again, i am speakinbg from a NON-MECHANICS pov.
The special effects of blammo's eb could be 'nuclear ray',
but that doesn't mean that it causees cancer and micro
particulate fallout when it hits things. I really don't
understand how you people can't wrap your heads around this.
It's the same sort of logic as giving a character a skill
and saying they always had it- it's just they never used it.
If indestructor (who is superheroic, yes?) wants to be indestructable,
he should have about 700 points. Otherwise, the game does not have the
power level required to support indestructable characters.
Saying he has that level of power, then he gets
75% rdr for everything, plus 100rd for everything,
plus power defence, ect. Then he can walk through quite a bit.
from the perspective of a HEROIC campaign, he IS indestructable.
He can swan dive off a cliff, get hit by a train, ect,
and within the normal perspective of the campaign
HE IS INDESTRUCTABLE! As i have said repeatedly any stun he takes
can be explained by other means- he could be momentarily distracted
(a valid 'special effect' for taking 5 stun when you have 80-100 to
begin with) or mired in rubble. I realise this involves a
moment of lateral thought, but it DOES NOT EFFECT THE
MECHANICS AT ALL! Simmilar explanations for damage/stun are
often used for character with energy forms and the like.
the real problem here is that
by 'indestructable' people are looking for a special effect which
relates to game mechanics. That's like wolverine saying:
"I'm the best at what i do- and i have the combat skill levels to prove it!"
Ergo, they cannot grasp how one
can be invunerable and still suffer damage. I have stated before
what a travesty this 100% idea would be in the game, but people
seem to like the idea of either:
A) As a gm, playing god with the players by deciding who
get such a power, which is well in excess of decisions
like stop signs and magnifying glasses, is a real kick.
or
B) As a player, have the power-gamers urge to play an indestructable
character.
or
C) disagreeing with me, in an attempt to claim that i am at fault
when the truth is they just can't keep up with my logic (this means you, timmy.)
I've already had one person flame me about this, it's clear
people have strong feelings about the right to play a character
who is invunerable as a mechanics concept as well as a story
concept. It should be obvious that if the general issue is
that a character is invunerable, the roleplaying possibilities
are the same.
>>That they cannot be quantified, since they are infinite.
>>You can't quantify infinity.
>>You just can't.
>>Go ahead, try.
>>You'll always end up with zero or infinity.
>>Simple as that.
>
> Hm. Somehow you derived infinity from one, so there must be something
>different going on here....
Um, when did i do that? I'm assuming you
actually read what i wrote, unlike mr gilberg earlier?
>---
>Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
>Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
>
>
>
"enslve humanity willya?"
Core Alpha PBEM http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/3306/Pbem.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo topaz.cqu.edu.au from jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au server @topaz.cqu.EDU.AU ip 138.77.1.3
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 13:56:28 +1000 (EST)
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 12:33 PM 5/2/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> Indestructor has 75% resistant Energy Damage Reduction and 20 rPD. What
>> happens when he interposes himself in front of the Death Star's 50d6 RKA?
>> Well, mechanically speaking, he'd take 2 BODY and 112 STUN from an average
>> roll (at least, according to my quick calculations). What happens when he
>> flies into the sun, with its 100d6 Killing environment? I calculate 82.5
>> BODY and 228 STUN from an average roll.
>> Seems pretty different to me.
>
> Your numbers are off. Damage reduction is figured _after_
>def takes effect. Therefore, the Death Start would do 38.75 BOD and
>111.67 Stun. The sun would do 82.5 BOD and 228.33 STUN. That's a
>_really_ big difference.
>
> (Actually, your numbers looked wrong even if doing it the other
>way.)
>
*yawn* so give him 100 body, with the special effect of
'just doesn't take any damage.' Oh, and 100 red to begin with.
As i said, the 75%/20dr example was for HEROIC level campaign.
Sawwy, star wars does not qualify. In fact neither does any
campaign which inlolves 'indestructable' pc's of that magnitude.
>
> -Tim Gilberg
>
> -"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
>
>
>
"enslve humanity willya?"
Core Alpha PBEM http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/3306/Pbem.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo imo13.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo13.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.35
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 00:01:53 EDT
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Horsebites
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<< against an average, unarmored person, this would mean one bite from
a horse would leave him at 1 BODY -- a lucky roll would leave him /dying/. >>
1D6+1 HKA does 2-7 Body (average of 4.5). That would not leave an average
person dying, but rather with 5.5 Body left (again, on average). ;)
Give them 1 pt of resistant Defense (i.e., Armor) and the damage drops to
2.5 Body (average). A decent wound, but not life threatening... unless the
horse perhap bit you in the head or (ouch!) the vitals. :D
Mark @ GRG
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-SMTP: helo dillinger.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@dillinger.io.com ip 199.170.88.11
X-Authentication-Warning: dillinger.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 23:03:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Horsebites
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sat, 2 May 1998, Filksinger wrote:
> >According to the stats listed on p. 197 of the BBB, a typical horse
> has a
> >1d6+1 HKA, Reduced Penetration, to represent a bite attack.
>
> I take it you are assuming that the horse is adding his STR to the
> bite, as otherwise the number would be considerably smaller.
With strength, the horse gets 2 x 1d6+1. Average damage, 9 points.
Please note that horse bites are as bad as being clawed by a lion, and
in fact are worse than being bitten by a lion.
<snip fatality from horse bites>
> No. This number is ridiculously high. Either horse bites should be
> much lower in damage, or they should be normal attacks. Maybe both.
My gf worked with and rode horses for quite a while, and she assures me
she has never even been close to death from a horse bite. She does say
that a horse could potentially sever a finger, though, and she did nearly
lose a thumb at one point.
I'd say that horse bites ought to do straight STR damage from the horse -
and normal damage at that. Possibly less, because that would still do 3
BODY to the average person...no, wait, 1 BODY, because it's probably on a
limb. Yeah, that makes me feel a lot better. Max of 4 BODY, which would
probably sever a finger.
Hmm...maybe these are /carnivorous/ horses?
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 23:07:34 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: 100% DR Debate
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Look, it's not my problem if my logic wooshes right over your head. How about,
If your posts had logic, they wouldn't waste my time.
> when you come across such a post, you try and understand it instead being
> defensive
> and calling names?
Offensive, actually. I'm not offended by your posts, I just feel
that they are completely wasting my time.
> Frankly my posts were based on the mechanical princibels
> which hero
> is basedupon.
Eh? All you seem to be basing your argument on is "Hero has no
absolutes", which is something that many have shown needlessly limits the
system.
> I realise this is a change from the loopholing and meaningless
> numbercrunching which dominates much of the list, but it's no reason for you
> to become offended. Frankly if you can't see the logic behind my arguments,
> you most likely won't understand this post becasue it uses numerous words of
> more than one syllable.
Fuck off. I said that your posts didn't use rules to support
them, unlike Rat. That's something quite provable. You then decide to
say I'm unintelligent.
Quite frankly, if you had said that to my face, I would have made
sure you couldn't speak for quite a while. I attacked you based on your
ability to back up your prattle with Hero rules, you attacked me
personally. Don't do it again.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-SMTP: helo dillinger.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@dillinger.io.com ip 199.170.88.11
X-Authentication-Warning: dillinger.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 23:36:05 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Horsebites
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sun, 3 May 1998, GoldRushG wrote:
> << against an average, unarmored person, this would mean one bite from
> a horse would leave him at 1 BODY -- a lucky roll would leave him /dying/. >>
>
> 1D6+1 HKA does 2-7 Body (average of 4.5). That would not leave an average
> person dying, but rather with 5.5 Body left (again, on average). ;)
Look carefully at the horse stats, though...that 1d6+1 is /after/ the
reduced penetration, which means it's 2 attacks of 2-7 body, averaging 9.
> Give them 1 pt of resistant Defense (i.e., Armor) and the damage drops to
> 2.5 Body (average). A decent wound, but not life threatening... unless the
> horse perhap bit you in the head or (ouch!) the vitals. :D
You'll /need/ armor if you're going up against the Amazing Carnivorous
HERO Uberhorses...allow me to suggest plate mail, though...
8)
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo topaz.cqu.edu.au from jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au server @topaz.cqu.EDU.AU ip 138.77.1.3
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 14:45:53 +1000 (EST)
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>>And his is? To tag a 120 points onto the plot device 'indestructable'
>is
>>not tournament-legal.
>
>As much of this discussion concerns a power which the proponents want
>to make official, then their way would, if they get their way, be
>tournament legal.
>
><snip>
they want to WHAT? ugh, and to think i've been multi-tasking
this debate.........And wouldn't my way be just as legal if
accepted? I mean which do you think the heros guys would rather,
an ultra-cheesy abuse of damage reduction which DEFEATS THE
PURPOSE OF THE POWER, or a set of scenario notes to define things
like omnipotent gods, immortality and the like?
>>
>>And which is a more valid construct, once we dispese with the
>>anally-retentive absolute term 'invunerability'
>>insisted upon thus far? I started with
>>this statement: THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES IN HERO.
>
>Ridiculous. I can't believe how often this is claimed, as it is not
>only clearly false, but some of the examples are annoying to me.
>
I stand somewhat corrected, which is more than most people ever say on this
list. Very well i shall clariffy. Within the area of GENUINLY QUANTIFIED
VALUES, there are no absolutes. The defence may exist, even if an
absolute seems to exist.
>Life Support is an absolute. If I buy immunity to cold for my Yeti,
>then my Yeti is uneffected by wading in liquid hydrogen. If immune to
>aging, he will never grow old. Both absolutes, which make it difficult
>to create such simple things as a coat or a man who will live roughly
>300 years before aging gets him. Given the cheapness of the Life
>Support, limitations on these are rather silly and give too much
>granularity.
>
Actually, most gm's would by liquid hydrogen as an attack
of some sort although perhaps with nnd-not vs life support.
Actually, this point suports my case. Life support is an example of
an OPPOSITION to a concept very simmilar to invunerability. That is,
it function as the valid defence for the otherwise unlimited concept
of 'massive environment damage'. Hence, the vacume of space would
be an absolute, if it were not for life support being there to counter it.
>Darkness is another absolute. No matter how much light there is, in
>Darkness you are always in absolute blackness. True, you could define
>very bright lights as "Suppress: Darkness", but I could define my
>super laser as being an NND RKA, claiming that no defense is strong
>enough to stop it. Either one dodges the issue.
>
Things like ls and darkness are by
definition, not quantified in terms of what can potentially
'defeat' them in the normal sence of the word. Hence my point.
I would now suggest that while darkness is an absolute,
as is life support, it can be partially rejected as an example two different
ways.
A)An adjustment power can be aplied to either example, hence proving they
are not absolute. Your nnd attack would be defeated by the conditional
defence cited, but this partially defends the idea of indestructability.
However, such concept have no inherant manner in which they can be effected,
APART from adjustment. Adjustemnt can be defined as a a de-facto defence
against the concept. Your example of a ndd does not really relate to this
issue. Nonetheless, since a 100% dr could be defeated the same way,
the suggestion may support my statement, but it has the opposite
effect on my argument for useing that statement. Hence i can't say
100% dr is an absolute and hence unnaceptable, then give an example of how
it isn't an absolute to support that claim.
B)In the case of darkness, other sences function as a *mechanics based*
curcumrvention of the effect, while REMAINING WITHIN THE AREA OF EFFECT IN
QUESTION.
in the same way the conditional defence on a nnd
circumvents the need for normal defence, BUT does remain within the
area of physal damage being prevented so not my avoiding the issue
completly, as would be the case if one were desolid. The equivalent
of this for sences goes like this:
Different senses are still senses. To defeat darkness vs sight i need only
use spacial awareness. This is still in the same area of effect. Using this
princible it would NOT be a valid example if i for instance, used a mind link
to 'see' through someone elses eyes, or hit and caused damage despite being
blinded. Hence a valid example for nnd would beuseing one of the defences
defined,
while a non-valid example would be just having enough body to take it or
using absorbtion to repair the injury.
However in both these cases the point is the same-
there is both a valid defence and a valid attack, within the same arena of
concepts. Unlike 100%RPD- which you cannot defend without going outside
of the arena of 'physical damage', the conditional defence of a nnd attack
can be properly placed within the category of physical defence, since it
functions directly as a defence against a physical attack. However, to
say the same about 100% rdr, one would have to allow an advantage that
'negates damage reduction', at which point 100% dr would cease being
What the original poster demands it is- definitive proof against damage y x.
the issue of adjustment powers works from the assumption
that it is seperate from the normal paridigm of offence-defence(ie pd and ed, as
well as damage reduction and stun/body)
, and in fact have their own set of defences (power defence, shared with
adjustment.)
When we're talking about dice rolls-hence a number of 'body/stun' or their
equivilant, we do not talk about anything being able to oppose those effects
with 100%
efficiency. People have commented on the issue of nnd before, and clearly
this is a case
of binary-style defence as well- you either casue damage or you don't based
on a given
condition. However this cannot be compared to the overarching manner in
which 100%
damage reduction affects concepts which seek to cause damage despite it.
While a nnd
attack is itself greatly advantageous- you accept that there is a binary
defence, becauuse
this is one of the few defences aplicable- those powers opposing 100%
DAMAGE REDUCTION is not so lmiited. In fact they wil most likely be a normal
attack that opposes it. As stated earlier, the condition given to prevent nnd
exists within the bounds of 'physical defence', while the possibilities
for confounding 100%rpdr lie well outside the area of 'phhysical attack'.
><snip>
>
>Filksinger
>
>
>
>
"enslve humanity willya?"
Core Alpha PBEM http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/3306/Pbem.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo imo16.mx.aol.com from erolb1@aol.com server @imo16.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.38
From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 00:46:50 EDT
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Horsebites
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
In a message dated 98-05-02 21:22:57 EDT, you write:
> An odd thought which hit me today, looking over a character someone created
.
> ..
>
> According to the stats listed on p. 197 of the BBB, a typical horse has a
> 1d6+1 HKA, Reduced Penetration, to represent a bite attack.
>
> City boy that I am, I admit to general ignorance about matters equestrian,
> but ... against an average, unarmored person, this would mean one bite from
> a horse would leave him at 1 BODY -- a lucky roll would leave him /dying/.
>
> So, I'm wondering if anyone knows ... are there a lot of fatalities out
> there in the real world resulting from horse bites? :^] Strict injuries,
> mind you, not infections or other side consequences.
My uncle was bitten by a horse once...
Really. (From the way my mom told the story, it hurt like the bejebers, but it
didn't really do all that much *damage*).
I've heard of occasional fatilities from being *kicked* by a horse, but not
from being *bitten* by one. If I were writing up horses, I'd be inclined to
make the bite do base STR damage w/o the HA bought for the kick, and call it a
special effect. (Or I might create special "animal martial arts" to represent
various animal's non-humanoid fighting styles.)
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-SMTP: helo dillinger.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@dillinger.io.com ip 199.170.88.11
X-Authentication-Warning: dillinger.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 23:54:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sun, 3 May 1998, happyelf wrote:
> HE IS INDESTRUCTABLE! As i have said repeatedly any stun he takes
> can be explained by other means- he could be momentarily distracted
> (a valid 'special effect' for taking 5 stun when you have 80-100 to
> begin with) or mired in rubble.
I still love the concept that one can be distracted to unconsciousness.
> Ergo, they cannot grasp how one
> can be invunerable and still suffer damage. I have stated before
> what a travesty this 100% idea would be in the game, but people
> seem to like the idea of either:
>
> A) As a gm, playing god with the players by deciding who
> get such a power, which is well in excess of decisions
> like stop signs and magnifying glasses, is a real kick.
As opposed to:
As a GM, plaing god with the players by deciding whose
powers qualify for the 'invulnerable' criteria, and then
yanking that away from them on a whim because, after all,
they don't have it in the game mechanics, only by GM
fiat.
> or
> B) As a player, have the power-gamers urge to play an indestructable
> character.
Because anyone who plays a powerful character is a rampant munchkin.
Uh-huh, right.
I am really sick of that attitude, BTW. Let me climb up on my soapbox for
a moment and say that playing powerful characters does not reflect at all
on your roleplaying skills - although there are a lot of munchkins who
powergame, there are also plenty of /good/ roleplayers who enjoy it too.
I have played and enjoyed characters at both ends of the power spectrum,
and I get really sick of the 'holier than thou' attitude that some people
- including you, happyelf - seem to exude whenever powerful characters are
brought up.
If /you/ can't handle powerful characters, or don't enjoy playing them,
fine. Play your games your way. But don't call me a 'powergamer' in a
negative sense because I happen to like them.
> or
> C) disagreeing with me, in an attempt to claim that i am at fault
> when the truth is they just can't keep up with my logic (this means you, timmy.)
Well, since your logic may well be based on false premises, is it really
worth keeping up with it?
Your logic, as I understand it, runs something like this:
Absolutes do not belong in HERO system.
100% Damage Reduction is an absolute.
Therefore, 100% damage reduction does not belong in HERO system.
Of course, following your logic, Life Support doesn't belong in Champions
either, because it's an absolute...
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo topaz.cqu.edu.au from jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au server @topaz.cqu.EDU.AU ip 138.77.1.3
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 15:56:05 +1000 (EST)
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:46 PM 5/2/98 -0500, you wrote:
>So in that game, invulnerability cost (if I remember your previous post
>correctly) 30 points.
>
in that particular game, yes.
>- Isn't that too low a cost for such a /powerful/ power? Isn't he getting
> more than what he paid for? Isn't that your problem with the whole
> concept of invulnerability?
No, the problem is he's PAYING FOR what he gets. In my version, he doesn't
pay to be invunerable, it's a plot concept entirely handled by the gm.
The defences he buys just makes it more plausable and allows the use
of normal game mechanics in as many instances as possible, with
the rest a matter of gm descretion.
>- Contrariwise, isn't saying 'well, 20 PD is invulnerable, I'll let him
> withstand being hit by a train'
I said nothing of the sort. Read and re-read the response i give
immediatly above this. The 20 pd does not equate to invunerability,
as i have said invunerability is NOT A MECHANICS CONCEPT.
> undermining the very mechanics of the
> system that you think 100% DR would destroy?
No. It is outside the realm of mechanics. Hence it does not effect them.
It is properly defined as a NON MECHANICS issue, once
we remove your error about what exactly equates to invunerability.
>- And isn't the character 'boring' because he's 'immortal' now?
>
No, he is immortal as part of the story. His immortality is
directly based on what the plot requires, and the possibilities
which it involves. As opposed to it being the tool of a
power-player who is lucky ebough to get the power in the first place.
>> >OK. And how does adding 100% DR undermine this? The cost is extrapolated
>> >from existing costs, so it certainly doesn't make the game mechanics
>> >'uncohesive'.
>>
>> Yes it does. It undemines the princible of getting what you pay for,
>
><cough> And your 'plot device' concept doesn't do that just as badly, if
>not worse?
>
No. Again, you don't pay for a plot device. This is in essence what you
are suggesting people should be able to do.
>?? Well, maybe your GMs are different down there. It certainly seems
>like your play style is very different, from the way you say that true
>invulnerability is some kind of sin against all that is holy.
>
Again, i said nothing of the sort. Simply that such concepts
should be placed outside the realm of game mechanics, so as
to not disrupt the balance of the game.
>> And the cost is not extrapolated.
>> Damage reductuion bases itself on the princible that 100% is unobtainable.
>
>You know, I can almost buy this, especially in conjunction with the other
>post that suggested another logical way of extrapolating the table (1/4,
>1/2, 3/4, 7/8, 15/16, etc). This is, in fact, more valuable input than
>anything else you've said, because it challenges some of the logical
>assumptions I've made and offers an alternative, instead of saying 'NO!
>You CAN'T do THAT! That's BAD!'
>
I have offered logic for my other positions. You have missed it by fault or
design.
>> no actually rimmer from rd dwarf was invunerable in series six-
>> but it still hurt when people hit him.
>
>Not very invulnerable by my standards, then.
>
But he didn't take damage. And since pain is not *directly quantified*
by game mechanics, 100% rdr does not nesecarily prevent it. It's a
matter of role-playing.
>And stun is what? Say it all together, class...'stun /damage/'. Yes,
>that's right, stun is a form of damage.
>
Yes, but the fact remains. Rimmer could not be destroyed st that story
point, he is indestructable
>> Yes, but it's a concept inherent in the attack. I say again i though you
>> say invunerable means you don't take any damage from an attack?
> ^^^
>(sigh) Maybe I'm being pedantic, but I'd say it's perfectly clear.
>Joe-Bob attacks Invulnerable-to-Energy Man with his EB.
>Invulnerable-to-Energy Man takes no damage from being hit with Joe-Bob's
>waves of energy, but he is thrown 100 yard through the air. At the end of
>his short flight, he slams into the earth, and takes damage.
>
yes. He takes damage as a result of the attack. That si all i'm suggesting.
>Please note that Invulnerable-to-Energy Man is taking damage from slamming
>into the Earth, not from the energy of the blast directly.
>
No, part of the damage is caused by gravity, most comes directly
fromt he kinetic energy of the blow.
>Using your logic, you should apply ED to knockback damage from an energy
>attack. (Well, it's damage done by the energy attack, isn't it?)
>
>> I'm talking about a rl equivalent. Invunerability is unobtainable.
>
>Thank you, Mr. State-the-Obvious man. So is a 12d6 EB firing from the
>eyes. So is regeneration. So is FTL Travel. Yet all of these things are
>in the game.
>
No, actually ftl travel occurs al the time- if you happen to be a tachion(sp)
And as for regeration, well reptiles regain limbs all the time, and a 12d6 eb
can concievably be defined as a poison dart, which could be launched from
a cyberoptic, which is something we will no doubt invent EVENTUALLY.
>> most of them apply in almost all circumstances. And there is usually one
thing
>> or another. Hence it is valid to allow a degree of stun of some sort at
least.
>> This is far more plausable then what you are suggesting. Also, if an
>> invunerable
>> guy gets hit by ANY high-energy effect, he better have life support, as
well.
>
hmmm, no reply? funny.
>> >In a comic book setting, I'd only use these fragments of metal if someone
>> >deliberately tried to create/use them - i.e. 'Oh no! Pyron is immune to my
>> >flame blast power! Maybe if I cause that propane tank next to him to
>> >explode, he'll be harmed by the shrapnel!' (aims at tank, boom, etc)
>>
>> *sigh* first you say non-comic book settings are suport for invunerability...
>> now this.
>
>At no time did I ever say non-comic-book settings are the /only/ support
>for invulnerability. Please stop trying to put words in my mouth.
>
i was of the belief that
You said it was more playsable for fantasy hero/four color campaigns, or
words to that effect.
>If you are trying to say 'these effects would occur in a 'realistic'
>setting, you have some validity there. But then again, if you wanted a
>'realistic' setting, perhaps you wouldn't allow complete invulnerability
>at all, since it is, as you point out, an inherently unrealistic power.
>
>If, for example, I were doing a Wild Cards campaign, I would probably do
>as you suggest - use 75% DR and high PD/ED - and chalk any damage up to
>things that aren't covered by the invulnerability.
>
So how is that as far as roleplaying goes, not defined as invunerable? if the
explanations given for damage taken involve concepts not defended against,
then the subject IS INVUNERABLE TO 'x' within the storyline.
>If I were doing a very epic game, then it would hardly be in genre for
>Invulnerable Man to take damage from the things he is invulnerable to, and
>it would seem pretty darn silly to me and the players if he were
>nickel-and-dimed to unconsciousness by attacks that his character concept
>sai he shouldn't have been hurt by.
>
Not his character concept, his character sheet. If invunerable man is
invunerable to everything, then your logic collapses into the limited infinity
fallacy. You may say 'obbviously he can be overpowered', but if that is so
he is vunerable to microscopic mucscle-damage caused my over-exertion against a
resistance(whoever he's strugglnig against.) In fact, if he's vunerable to
being wrestled to the ground, he is not completly invunerable. While any
concept remains which he cannot ignore at will, he can be potenatially
neutralised- especially considering the ower level involved. If you play
an epic game, give him epic points, or make it a plot device as it should be.
>> >> , sudden trauma from temperature changes(maybe)
>> >
>> >Isn't that part of how fire damages people?
>>
>> My point exactly: what does 'immune to fire' cover?
>
>Well, I'd say: damage from fire attacks. If you hade 'immune to fire'
>but not LS: Heat, then you would take no damage from a 12d6 'flame
>blast' EB, but you could be damaged by a 3d6 NND 'heat wave' attack, or
>even by just walking through the desert. Why? I dunno, depends on the
>character. Maybe he has a magic ring of fire resistance or a blessing
>from the gods.
>
maybe the gods poke him ni the ribs every time he uses the ring,
hence causing damage. And what about a 'volcanic blast'? or an 'inferno blast'?
>> you could argue that,
>> since heat is just molecular agitation, soeone with this immunity would be
>> so immune to being punched also- it's all kinetic transference.
>
>Now /this/ is cheese. It's even cheesier than trying to say 'well, being
>punched is damage through kinetic energy, so why shouldn't I use my
>/Energy/ Defense?'
>
You're the once suggesting an infinite concept. This is the
type of issue which arises in such a dialogue.
>> >Of course, if someone truly wanted to be 'invulnerable to fire' I'd
>> >suggest they also buy LS: Intense Heat...
>>
>> Yes. .. but you just said 'immune to fire' means you can't take
>> damage from fire. In that case how would you explain someone
>> with 100%red and NO ls?
>
>That's the player's job, not mine. I'm not about to say 'that shouldn't
>exist just because /I/ can't think of an SFX for it.' I can't think of
>SFX for 'indirect Running' either, but that doesn't mean I'll say it's
>impossible to explain or purchase in my campaign.
>
Unm, why not? That's like me saying that just becasue i
can't see how a nnd can cause body damage, i should still let
a pc ahve it. Of course i can see a way it could function, but
the issue remains.
>> okay let's say '100% red vs fire attacks',
>> but that still doesn't wash.
>
>There's an Arabian tale (I think) about a blacksmith who was given a
>blessing, that he would never be burned by any fire. This would probably
>be an example of 100% DR vs fire, but no LS: Heat.
>
yes but it's still an example of how you can hget 100%dr and
still take damage 'from' 'fire'. The problem is that your demands
base them selves on story-conmcepts while what you really want is
points-bargain.
>> You're basing your suggestion on a
>> scenario- a character who does not take damage from X.
>> But the problem is that they're bound to take damage from x
>> in some ways unless you reduce it to pure game mechanics
>> (as in immune to attacks with X as special effect) in which
>> case it is no longer valid to argue from anything but a mechanics-
>> based perspective.
>
>Which is /exactly/ what I'm talking about - I'm going at this from a
>mechanics-based perspective, and you're not.
>
Yes but i just said- it's not valid to try and depict
such a concept from such a mechanics-based perspective.
For one thing you cannot claim to have roleplaying-based
reasons for a purely mechanical isse, for another thing
without the freeform aspects of special effect and other
non-mechanical concepts, the game is meaningless.
>> no, again you speak of game mechanics when i'm speaking
>> of reality. You base your concept on pure rules-logic,
>> the problem is your logic is flawed. These are all good
>> reasons why someone who is (sfx) indesructable to X
>> would still take a few stun from an attack with X
>> as a special effect, but you continue to speak in
>> pure game mechanics.
>
>In a discussion about game mechanics. Gosh, who woulda thought?
>Actually, my point is that your hyper-realistic reasons don't match my
>play style or the source material I use for my games.
>
But you state that taking damage from an invunerable attack is what?
not a valid deffniition of 'invunerable'?
hmm, where'd you get that deffinition from?
And i'm not being hyper-realistic, just pointig out that there are
WAYS to EXPLAIN the damage suffered useing my model,
WITHOUT it being proof of it not DEPICTING invunerability.
>In addition, all of your examples seem to me to be rationalizations
>because you don't like the concept of someone who is invulnerable to
>something. If I bought 300 rED instead of Invulnerable to Energy, I would
>more than likely take no damage from your hypothetical metal fragments,
>even though they're physical damage, and would logically hurt both
>characters based on their concept...tell me, is that logical from your
>realistic standpoint?
>
Again, you have missed the point of these examples. For
one thing the theoretical 300red would have 'only vs'
limitations the same as the 100%redr, and hence would
take damage in the same sort of circumstances. Also, I am trying
to argue above that yes, an indestructable character written
either way WOULD take such damage. Thank you for agreeing with me.
>> Frankly i think you have no intrest
>> in the role-playing concept at all, this is about
>> pumping superdood full of cheese.
>
>Frankly, I think you're resorting to insulting the playing style of a
>person you've never gamed with and don't even know, because...well...I'm
>not sure /why/ you're finding it necessary to employ that kind of tactic,
>and I'm not going to speculate on it, for fear that it would make my
>behavior as objectionable as yours.
>
I'm sorry if you take words like 'superdood' with such deadly seriousness.
Obviously the phrase has a different meaning in your country. And
my point stands- the issue of 100%rdr has nothing to do with roleplaying.
If you were loking for a role-based aprasal of such a power a plot device
would be the perfect solution.
Note i said "no intrest in THE roleplaying CONCEPT"(namely indestructability)
Not "no intrest in roleplaying."
>> NO, the INFINITE CONCEPT is the matter best left to roleplay. And no
matter how
>> often you do it, being envloped in green energy is going to give you a
moments
>> distraction. That equates to a few stun quite easily.
>
>Hm, so if I get distracted a lot I'll eventually fall unconscious?
>
Unless you do the obvious thing and buy some recovery. Unless your theorising
a 12 spd autofire weapon small enough to hit a humanoid with every shot,
and insisting that a 250 pt character should be able to do this sort of thing,
a lump of stun and rec should cover any such concerns.
>> >Yes, stun /damage/ - note key word 'damage' here, as in the stuff you
>> >shouldn't take when you're invulnerable. Otherwise, you get stuff like
>> >'Well, yeah, I'm invulnerable to fire. Except it can knock me out.' which
>> >is pretty silly if you ask me.
>>
>> Stun is stun. It can be portrayed many different ways, many having
>> nothing to do with damage. For instance you burn stun after you
>> exaust end, that isn't some invisible pixie slapping you around for
>> exceeding you quota.
>
>No, its you pushing yourself hard enough that it could potentially knock
>you unconscious - going past your limits, basically. However, being hit
>by an attack has nothing to do with pushing or burning STUN for END.
>
Hence it is not defined as damage in the clar manner you would
suggest.
>> And you can get
>> 'Well, yeah, I'm invulnerable to fire. Except it can knock me out.'
>> anyway, from a guy with no life support, or a dozen other things.
>
>Yeah, but those people have purchased their powers in a way that they have
>basically said 'Yeah, I realize that I could be knocked out or whatever by
>stuff I'm invulnerable to, that's OK'. If a player wants that, fine. If
>a player doesn't want that, that's fine by my book too - but apparently it
>isn't in yours.
>
Okay, let's say the fire nvolves a drain on your highest ap power
level-
makes sence in a more realistic game. You now have a guy with
100% red who can say that sentence all the time.
>> You just said 'WITHOUT GETTING HURT AT ALL.'
>
>OK, OK, 'without getting hurt at all by the laser itself'. Happy?
>
Okies, why does the guy hit the planet? the laser. Again
we're speaking about being 'invunerable', you were only
too happy to repeatedly say 'but he takes stun sop he's
not invunerable', i'm only donig the same sort of thing.
>> When a bullet kills you
>> it often doesn't do so from the tissue damage, but the shock. Both are
>> involved in the attack, however it is valid to say that the impact ot a
>> superlaser is INHERENTLY involved in the concept of the damage it casues.
>
>Gosh, if it does damage by a physical impact, maybe it should be a
>physical attack. Or a combined physical/energy attack.
>
I was sepaking in non-game terms, as were you a few seconds ago.
And since usually inpact cause knockback, i'd say any attack that casue
kb is up fot he same jibe?
>> No not an equal number, an infinite amount more.
>
>Actually, no, you said 'buy stuff in the book and call it
>invulnerability'. You also said that it was worth 20 points in your
>pulp-era game, because you'd let the guy with 20 rPD get hit by a train
>and take no damage because he's invulnerable.
>
No. The 20 rPD has nothing to do with the 'invunerable' plot device.
>> >> Like it or not, a guy who gives moff tarkin's little toy
>> >> the laugh is built on a hell of a lot of points.
>> >
>> >120 points is a hell of a lot to spend on a defense, and probably exceeds
>> >most campaigns' AP limits.
>>
>> No. A starting super can afford that in theory.
>
>If he's blatantly deficient in other areas.
>
Yeah, but he still CAN.
>> and AP limits are
>> not a valid guage of power level.
>
>Stop the presses, notify all the Champions players, we've been /completely
>wrong/ all these years!
>
Okay. so your saying that a 500 point character limited to 60 ap
is less powerful than a 250 pt character with an 80 ap limit?
excuse the arcanicism but
NO-OT!
>> You can set them wherever you
>> want and call it 'expensive', but really expense is total cp -
>> cost of power. 120 pts say -1/4 for 'only vs fire'
>
>I'd call it a -1 in most superhero games, but that's not the main issue
>here.
>
ExCUSE me? fire guy isn't going to be encountering fire a lot? *lol*
>> is
>> 90 points. which frankly is birdseed. oops, i mean chicken feed. whatever.
>
>So you've spent 60 points on a power - or 90, in your example. Now you
>can't be harmed by fire. 90% of the attacks out there will still do
>damage to you, though. You're hardly godlike or unbalancing.
>
No,not 90%. and besides as i say elsewhere, that 10% is infinitely efective.
Hence infinite.
>> a high-power character (375 pts) can buy all three for 360 and still
>> have change left for str and some dex.
>
>15 whole points, yup. And when he can't hit any of his high-powered
>opponents, attack from a distance,
>
*yawn* Yeah, but he's still THERE. I rest my case about the power being
way undervalued, even if you don't treat it as infinity.
>> no. . .the image would be to make you look like your bouncing it off the
>> chestige...
>
>Say /what/? Um...OK. I must admit, I haven't the foggiest clue what
>you're talking about here.
>
>Dodge would move you out of the way of the beam, so you don't get hit.
>Image would make it look like you 'bounced it off your chest',
>but...well...you /didn't/, and whatever was behind you is still destroyed.
>Unless you're giving out powers for free, that is.
>
Yeah, but if you want to deflect a missle, buy *drum roll*
missle deflection! I was just giving you numerous opions
>> and human-sized target culd not blaock a superlaser without some sort of
>> force wall. the superlaser on the prototype deathstar in the jedi academy
novels
>> completly envloped the sun crusher, so no a human is too small. And an area
>> effect couldn't be blocked in this way anyhow.
>
>Of course, you're arguing this specific argument rather than the general
>one. Fine, let's scale it down, then. We've got a giant megalaser that's
>going to vaporize Air Force One. It does 10d6 damage or so. It's not Area
>Effect, it's...oh, I dunno. Armor Piercing and Penetrating.
>
>Character A is invulnerable to Energy (100% rEDR), he flies in front of
>the laser and saves the President's plane without being scratched - just
>like his character concept of 'invulnerable to energy'. Character B has
>75% rEDR and 40 rED. He flies in front of the laser, and takes an average
>of 3 BODY and 17 STUN. Wow, he's not very invulnerable is he? If the
>villain had gotten the maximum damage roll, he'd be taking 10 BODY, 70
>STUN, and be merrily on his way to the hospital.
>
PUMP IT. Invunerable guy has 75% redr and 100ed. No problem.
And besides if he takes 3 body or even 10, he can shrug that of numerous ways,
here's two examples-
A) buy 10-20 body, 'only vs energy damage', the sfx being that he just doesn't
take damage.
B) Narrate it different- knockback, right? well, subtract the
body and stun while your subtracting for hitting stuff, which makes sence
really: if the energy doesn't damage you, clerly more of it is being
directed into propelling you, unless it's reflected very well (i think
i mentioined missle deflection).
>Now, the question that is really at the root of this all is: is
>'Invulnerable to X' too powerful? I don't think so. You do.
>
'invunerable to X' as a sfx i have no probel with. Same goes
for 'invunerable to x' as a plot device.
>> Well buy scads of dcv bonuses. say. .5 pts for doge, +20 dcv fo 100 points.
>> It's within the rules, and it's a better idea than giving points for
infinity.
>
>And if you're unconscious or surprised, you're at 0 DCV. "I'm
>invulnerable, if I'm aware of the attack."
>
Better than 'i'm invunerable, and it's my first
day on the job!"
>Actually, Dodge is a pretty poor mechanic for invulnerability, since it
>doesn't stop the attack at all - you can't shield Jane DNPC with your
>body.
>
You can't do that anyway with such high numbers. I'd say if you wanna bounce
stuff,
buy missle deflection. Dive for cover might work, but then again,
the kb will probably smear you and jane all over the nearest wall.
>Like any of the other solutions you've proposed, it's viable for a certain
>limited type of 'invulnerability', but not for true invulnerability.
>
Yes, but the sceanario you just suggested for 100% rdr is just as flawed.
And if you get extra points to put in kb resistance, then i'll go ahead
and buy an invosible, intangible follower with missle deflection and 12
speed. It's STILL less cheesy.
>> >Except that it's again useless against area effect attacks - and also
>> >against hand-to-hand attacks. "I'm invulnerable, unless someone punches
>> >me." No.
>>
>> there is such a thing as bying MORE THAN ONE POWER to depict a sfx power?
>> And if it's an area effect attack as i said you couldn't block it from
>> hitting the planet anyway, since area effects are not linear.
>
>You're combining two separate arguments here. OK, lets say that we do a
>'block/deflect' type of invulnerability - scads of levels with block and
>missile deflection.
>
>Grond comes and whacks you with a car. Squish. Not invulnerable.
>
as i just said, buy other paowers AS WELL! *yeesh*
>Sipristi the ninja sneaks up on you while you're a sleep and plants a
>knife in your ribcage. Not invulnerable.
>
>Do you see the problems I have with this suggestion now?
>
Yeah i see the problem. You missed the point and had a field day
based on your misunderstanding.
Now i'll misread your sig line and think it means you worship smurfs and
have a good laugh:
HA HA HA HA HA!
Hmm, didn't prove much, did it?
>> >Dispel or Suppress take a half-phase attack action to perform, for one.
>>
>> then buy speed and weedle an intercept out of the gm. or prepare in advance-
>> again this is lateral vs linear thinking.
>
>See above block/deflect example. Doesn't work when you're unconscious,
>etc. I suppose you /could/ buy it 0 end persistent always on or
>something. If you used Dispel then your invulnerability would be
>all-or-nothing. And you'd have the odd thing that you wouldn't be as
>invulnerable to things that are 'difficult to dispel'.
>
buy it all. I mean most bricks don't have
0 range ae telekinesis- but i require it if they want to lift
things that wold fall apart if you lifted thwem that way irl.
It doesn't mean they aren't strong.
"enslve humanity willya?"
Core Alpha PBEM http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/3306/Pbem.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo out2.ibm.net from john.desmarais@ibm.net server @out2.ibm.net ip 165.87.194.229
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
To: "GoldRushG" <GoldRushG@aol.com&>
"hero-l@sysabend.org" <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 01:56:14 -0400
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: Horsebites
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sun, 3 May 1998 00:01:53 EDT, GoldRushG wrote:
><< against an average, unarmored person, this would mean one bite from
>a horse would leave him at 1 BODY -- a lucky roll would leave him /dying/. >>
>
> 1D6+1 HKA does 2-7 Body (average of 4.5). That would not leave an average
>person dying, but rather with 5.5 Body left (again, on average). ;)
>
> Give them 1 pt of resistant Defense (i.e., Armor) and the damage drops to
>2.5 Body (average). A decent wound, but not life threatening... unless the
>horse perhap bit you in the head or (ouch!) the vitals. :D
>
> Mark @ GRG
Don't forget to add in STR though. Wth STR added (and taking the reduced pen into
account) that horse does 2x1d6+1. An average attack (3.5+1 x 2) does 9 body. Ouch!
-=>John D.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo topaz.cqu.edu.au from jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au server @topaz.cqu.EDU.AU ip 138.77.1.3
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 16:48:33 +1000 (EST)
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>> Here's my official take on invunerable to laser weapons(as in superlasers,
>> fer instaance):
>>
>> missle defleion, + 5 speed only to use missle deflection, (and stuff like
>> always on, ect)
>
>I won't even get into how discusting this would make the combat rounds.
>No thank you, I'll use by 100% DR idea and get through my combats without
>getting a migraine.
>
yeah- leave the migranes to everyone else who has to put up with that, right?
Your talking about being invunerable, and now you won't even put any
effort into it. Maybe you should reconsider your position?
>> 75% redr, rdr.
>> full life support.
>
>Invulnerable to lasers means you don't age, sleep, breathe, die horribly
>in a vacuum? Yes, very logical.
>
This is the model for total invunerability. The lfe support
wold carry the same limit as all the others- that way the gm
could not say you drown in bullets, ect, geddit?
>> 600 rep
>> 600 red,
>>
>> all these bought with 'only vs x.'.
>
>LS: Doesn't Age, only vs. lasers?
>
yup. You've never heard of an ageing laser?
btter to go the whole hog to avoid ANY
questionable status.
>> And besides, the real reason my ideas aren';t acceptable are:
>>
>> A) you like your idea
>>
>> and
>>
>> B) being indestructable my way places it far out of the
>> reach of low power characters, as it should be.
>
>Well, gosh, thanks you, your Telepathic Majesty. I'll let you argue my
>side as well, since you seem to think you can read my mind.
>
>Actually, your ideas aren't acceptable because they don't do what I want
>them to do. It's that simple.
>
Um, see option a? and option b actualy. . that's pretty much what i said.
>> No, by points level he is out of his league. by points level if you want
>> to include an invunerable guy in your game, then it costs bulk points.
>> Deal with it. if a player says he wants his pc to be invunerable to
>> the nth degree, and you agree, then give him extra points. The other players
>> might not like it, but it's preferable to lying about how much the power is
>> worth, at least they know where they stand.
>
>Of course (as has been pointed out to me in the past), points levels have
>very little relation to how much something is worth. If you buy lots of
>energy defense, and everyone you meet in the campaign is a martial artist
>or a brick, then your points in ED aren't worth the same amount of points
>in PD.
>
Yes, and it follows that if you rarely encounter a situation
in which 100red will prevent you from taking damage, those situations
cannot be used as a reason that such a defence is not a valid
portrayal of 'invunerable'.
>> um, they went caboom.
>
>Yes, they went kaboom. They didn't fly backwards for several miles and
>then go kaboom, as they would/should have if they were hit by a laser that
>size that did knockback.
>
um, they went kaboom. How could they fly back if they had already gone kaboom?
And no your wrong. Knockback is deal with AFTER damage has bee inflicted.
>> in support of you, the sun crusher didn't budge
>> whe it got hit, but it was invunerable- so i guess being invunerable
>> DOES include knockback resistance *eg*
>
>Well, not in my book. Whatever this 'sun crusher' is, it probably had
>some other reason for not moving. Either the superlaser does no knockback
>(or maybe it has -1/4, only does knockdown) or the Sun Crusher has enough
>knockback resistance or flight to avoid the effects.
>
No, it had infinitly dense quantum armour, it was indestructable.
>> And if you like, just buy 600 red or however much, plus
>> 75% redg.
>> That's what it takes, you get what you paid for.
>
>I guess I'm just going on the principle of diminishing returns. It
>doesn't really bother me to say a character is invulnerable to energy, or
>whatever. As a GM, I can get around that without being cheesy and having
>him be affected by energy weapons anyway (cf metal fragments and similar
>stuff above). I think 120 points is basically sufficient for this because
>it's a hell of an expenditure when you consider that its twice what most
>people in a normal Champions game will be spending on defense (and /far/
>more than people in the average Fantasy Hero game would spend on it), and
>99% of the time, an equal amount of rED would have stopped the damage cold
>anyway.
>
yes- so why not use the red? you refuse to realise that
this is a preferable option, since it ALREADY EXISTS,
and would not do damage to the balance of the game.
100% rdr would.
>> i'd rather have a character who is positive he's invunerable,
>> but his player still has to gamble, yes? still heroic?
>> still has a POINT?
>
>100% rEDR would be pointless in a game where the only attacks were energy
>based. It'd blow there, because you'd be invulnerable to anything.
>Fortunately this is not the case in any game I've ever run. There are
>innumerable challenges that could face the player whose character is
>invulnerable to energy, and plenty of opportunities to roleplay. I hardly
>think the power makes then a GOD and it certainly doesn't make them
>impossible to defeat. And if the character isn't omnipotent, and has
>plenty of roleplaying opportunities, then how can he have no point?
>
Compared to every other thing you can
spend points on, 100% red is GOD. It is massivly
out of scale with all oter options.
>> No-one in the universe is completly cofident of never being harmed.
>> And again the gm can still just plot device it if he wants, it is
>> far preferable to letting loose the monster you suggest.
>
>Hmm. The only reason I as a GM can see for 'plot devicing' it is in case
>I wanted to change my mind later and hose the character by saying 'guess
>what! You're mysteriously and for no reason not invulnerable to energy
>anymore, because I said so'. I'd rather keep the respect of my players.
>If I don't want them to have it, I'll tell them they can't buy it up
>front, instead of leading them on and then springing that fact on them
>later.
Not so. A plot device exists as a cocept beyond the balance and
limited player autonomy issues of the character creation mechanics.
>
>> Then i never will. If you don't get how this changes the system for the
worse,
>> then i'd suggest your not useing the mechanics at all. you're just making
>> stuff up and attaching mechanics-based rationalisations. Why not just
>> go free improv?
>
>Because the mechanics are still useful to me, and I don't believe that
>they are destroyed because I let the possibility of this power arise.
>
But i do. And considering how cheesy ha is at it's current
level (3 pts for 1 dice) i think i'm correct that 100% red is
way worse (120 points for infinite dice)
>
>Oh, yeah, my game is ruined every time the GM says 'no, you can't have
>that.' I guess we should let all the people in a Cyber HERO game buy
>Transform Person to Frog, because it's in the main rules.
>
>If complete invulnerability wouldn't fit the genre or tone of the
>campaign, DON'T USE IT. Simple. Effective. No different than what any
>normal logical HERO GM would do in similar circumstances.
>
As i said before, power of this level goes WAY beyond a stop sign
or campain element. There is no ROLEPLAYING reason to incorperate it into
any setting, apart from 'captain cheese and the ultimate god-modders'.
>> Yes the gm should look at ap, and
>> stop signs and such, and approve of reject powers,
>> but this is entirely differnt than
>> placing a power which pretty much says 'thou art god'
>
>I've got a real problem with you claiming that this power makes you a god.
>It doesn't. It makes you immune to one type of damage, that's it.
>
Yes. Immune in a game where the closest anyone can get to
an absolute is some semi-bvalid footnotes about
life support.
>> in the book and then not letting people use it, or
>> letting them if the mood takes you. i say again,
>> if you are looking fot that level of gm control, you're
>> better off making up sheets in purely freeform terms.
>
>So in your games, the GMs don't ever say 'don't take these powers'? They
>don't take the tone and genre into account? If I were going to run a game
>based on the Tomorrow People, I'd say 'here are the types of powers you
>should take. Here are the types of powers you /shouldn't/ take, because
>they don't match the genre.'
>
Life is about degrees. I exert a degree of control, but this
goes way beyond that.
>Completel invulnerability is not for every campaign. But it is a viable
>power in /some/ campaigns. HERO doesn't currently allow for that.
>
No it is not. 800red will suffice. And hero bases superoic campaigns on the
idea that you get what you pay for, and heroic campaigns do not seek
to quantify things like that when no quantification is requitred, and in fact
damages the balance of the system.
>
>Sure, if he wanted to be completely capricious. Heck, you could say that
>JimBob got damaged by that 10-year-old's 1d6 punch, even though he's got
>20 rPD, as long as you wanted to be a complete prat and ignore the rules.
>
>Mind you, if any GM did that, I'd be hard pressed to find the reason or
>motivation to play in any of their games.
>
Yes. you prefer the powers have a degree of accountability?
A point at which the gm must take them into account?
But don't you understand that this is because the mechanics
are FINITE, which means the gm can rely on them not to backfire?
>> You are asking to give a player the power to veto the gm's decisions.
>> A player with a character with this power could quite rightly say
>>
>> "Hey, you said billstorm cannot be hurt by fire attack powers? well a
fire guy
>> just blasted the pavement abd the rebound hurt me, but that couldn't
>> happen becasue the guy used a (all together now) fire attack power to
>> inflict the damage!
>
>Yeah, and you could say that if you were using a 10d6 EB vs 100 ED, too.
>Your point is hardly restricted to the invulnerability issue - it's more a
>'do you have a fair GM or not'.
>
No, it is not. We talk about degrees here. It is valid for a gm
to be debated after the game if a player thinks he misuses a 10d6eb
against a 20ed force field. But that logic, that entire dialogue
falls apart at the level of 100% dmamge reduction. It should be a
plot device, ENTIRELY in the hads of the gm, so that the
validity of the debate i mentioned above can remain.
>> HERO can be played in an almost 'minatures' manner with the
>> gm pitching the villains against the heros, but ONLY becasue the powers
>> are balanced and AVOID absolute values! you are suggesting that
>> during such a style of play some of the combatants should have infinite
>> value, and that is just not valid.
>
>Wel, I don't see it as 'infinite' becase the power will not let you create
>a character that cannot be harmed in any way. I guess FireGuy would be
>generally in trouble when fighting Invulnerable-to-Energy Man, but then
>he'd just have to think a little. (Gosh, we wouldn't want that, would
>we? It might inspire...role-playing!)
>
You said youself that invunerability = tales no damage from x.
But i have suggested ways in ahich a 100% vs x person
could still take damage from 'x'. You seem to have a selective
perception of the issues involved.
>> >Now, wasn't my original post all about the fact that even someone with
>> >100% Physical, Energy, /and/ Mental Damage Reduction wasn't 'unbeatably
>> >powered'? In fact, I listed a bunch of powers and things that could
>> >affect them.
>>
>> yeah, but you were wrong.
>
>Wrong in what aspect?
>
>That they were not unbeatable?
>- Transform, Invulnerable Superhero to Frog.
>- Suppress Super Powers (the famous anti-mutant gun idea)
>- Entangle
>
link a drain with an eb. Consider them one power for special effect
purposes, and define the sfx as 'x'.
Shoot target twice. You have now damaged an undamagable opponent,
useing the sfx he is supposed to be undamagable by.
>> such a person is unearthly powered.
>
>They're very powerful, yes. I never said they weren't.
>
>On the other hand, someone who spent the same amount of points on an
>attack would have a 72d6 Energy Blast or a 24d6 Killing Attack. That's
>pretty unearthly right there.
>
nope. Mr invunerable will laugh at them. as he will laugh at someone with
twice the points, in the right ver common circumstances.
>> It should be a plot device
>
>Which somehow makes it not 'too powerful'?
>
Yes. i define 'too powerful' in points terms,
and a plot device has no points.
>> or properly bought with points (as
>> opposed to being attached to ataken sum).
>
>Which there is no way to do, as you have so aptly demonstrated with your
>many examples.
>
Only becasue you cntinue to miss the point
of them. buy them all!
>>
>> Let me get this straight- in order to please your player, you have to let his
>> pc be invunerable and NEVER take it back?
>
>No, in order to please a player I have to be up-front and honest with him.
>Not jerking him around by saying 'you're invulnerable...no, you're
>not...yes, you are'.
>
No, in order to pleae the player you be up-front and say
'no, you can't be invunerable for 120 points. We will consider
it part of the story, which means it is completly my call
on wha occurs relating to it. '
>> Comics use the phrase 'night invunerable' for a reason.
>
>Well, the Tick uses it. (Actually, he uses 'nigh invulnerable' but I
>think that's what you meant - unless you have some kind of Aussie
>superhero who can't be harmed except when the sun is in the sky) But then
>again, the Tick is a comedy/parody comic, too. He's 'nigh invulnerable'
>because its funnier that way.
>
And rogue has a dopey accent? i wouldn't know, i'm from australia.
And yes there was an australian super called the nightfighter.
>> If you are suggestig that
>> this travesty of a power is valid simply to placate a player who wants to be
>> the ultimate 'pro from dover', than i doubt any of your arguments are valid,
>> since they exist simply as rationalisation of that objective.
>
>Well, the place I'll be using it is in 'Final Fantasy HERO'. In the
>genre, there are plenty of creatures that are 'invulnerable to X', magic
>items that give the power, etc.
>
>I /could/ go through and figure out the maximum damage anyone with ever do
>with an attack of type X, but honestly, that's going to be a) a lot of
>work, and b) it'd give misleading results for a lot of things anyways,
>because they'll be facing it at a time when they won't be able to do that
>much damage to it.
>
I don't expect you to. Just write 'invunerable to x' with no points
attached. You'll find it's actually quite liberating.
>> >I'm of the opinion that you should design for the real players of the
>> >game. If you try to munchkin-proof a game, you will only succeed in
>> >limiting the honest players.
>>
>> That's juat silly.
>
>And that's just unsupported.
>
No, it's roleplaying dcommon sence. The game must
be balanced to some degree.
>> And frankly wanting to be completly invunerable when you
>> have the choice t be nigh-invunerable and have your character and everyone
>> else act like they are (hence allowing any possible ROLEPLAYING concepts)
>> is nothing more than powergaming.
>
>> >The GM has the easiest way in the world to stop the use of this power.
>> >Say 'There's a 60 AP limit on defenses'. On the other hand, the GM that
>> >/wants/ effects like this to be around can have it and use it.
>>
>> No. For one thing not everyone uses ap limits,
>
>Then they should expect this and other completely 'abusive' things like
>the 72d6 EB I mentioned before.
>
That isn't nearly as abusive. It would be, but then you went
and invented 100% rdr.
>> for another, as i already
>> said this goes WAY beyond concepts like disallowing damge reduction and
FTLm,
>> or even high-damage attacks. Nothing can compare to this power, so from a
>> points based perspective it is no power at all.
>
>Oh, I dunno. 24d6 RKA...average of 84 body...that'll just about vaporize
>anyone. Hell, let's say that it will, as a 'plot device' - that's what
>you want me to do with invulnerability, right?
>
nope. 1000 points of defence will work just fine.
>>
>> Funny, you're the one going on about players getting upset about having
their
>> invnuerability taken away, and so forth.
>
>And, of course, you know that they're upset because they're really just
>powergamers, instead of people wanting to be treated fairly by their GM.
>Right.
>
You reading was as subjective as mine. Moreso, since you based
it on very little of my post.
>> The rule book exists for a reason,
>> and in such an extreme case it should not be a gm call as to wether such a
>> power
>> mechanic can be used. rather, put it as a plot device as it should be,
>> completly
>> under the gm's control.
>
>Are you saying that powers are not completely under the GM's control? The
>GM is somehow not allowed to say 'you can't have that'? You're not really
>getting anything by making it a plot device, except maybe the ability to
>screw your players over and have something to soothe your conscience over
>it (well it was in the rules...).
It operates at differing levels. If it's in the rules the players
CAN argue, but if you put stuff like indestructability and omnipotence
in then that privelege breaks down.
>
>J
"enslve humanity willya?"
Core Alpha PBEM http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/3306/Pbem.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo topaz.cqu.edu.au from jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au server @topaz.cqu.EDU.AU ip 138.77.1.3
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 16:55:13 +1000 (EST)
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 100% DR Debate
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 11:07 PM 5/2/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> Look, it's not my problem if my logic wooshes right over your head. How
about,
>
> If your posts had logic, they wouldn't waste my time.
>
Gee, the guy i'm arguing against seems to seem my point.
Maybe your wasting your time becasue there was nothing
else you could say?
>> when you come across such a post, you try and understand it instead being
>> defensive
>> and calling names?
>
> Offensive, actually. I'm not offended by your posts, I just feel
>that they are completely wasting my time.
>
Well don't read them. Or kill my mail. Your loss.
>> Frankly my posts were based on the mechanical princibels
>> which hero
>> is basedupon.
>
> Eh? All you seem to be basing your argument on is "Hero has no
>absolutes", which is something that many have shown needlessly limits the
>system.
>
Well, actually there is a need- to maintain game balance.
>> I realise this is a change from the loopholing and meaningless
>> numbercrunching which dominates much of the list, but it's no reason for you
>> to become offended. Frankly if you can't see the logic behind my arguments,
>> you most likely won't understand this post becasue it uses numerous words of
>> more than one syllable.
>
> Fuck off. I said that your posts didn't use rules to support
>them, unlike Rat. That's something quite provable. You then decide to
>say I'm unintelligent.
>
But they do. Current damage reduction IS based on the idea that no matter
how much
it is reduced, *some* will get through- sakura agrees that is a valid point.
And so forth. I'm not going to repeat all the examples, becasue you're jus
looking for
a fight.
> Quite frankly, if you had said that to my face, I would have made
>sure you couldn't speak for quite a while. I attacked you based on your
>ability to back up your prattle with Hero rules, you attacked me
>personally. Don't do it again.
>
>
No, you claimed i was obnoxious and unintelligant. I said the same about you.
I was also nice enough to give you the chance to threaten me personally
which is something you probably need to do once in a while.
Thank me.
>
> -Tim Gilberg
>
> -"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
>
>
>
"enslve humanity willya?"
Core Alpha PBEM http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/3306/Pbem.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo topaz.cqu.edu.au from jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au server @topaz.cqu.EDU.AU ip 138.77.1.3
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 17:11:33 +1000 (EST)
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 11:54 PM 5/2/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On Sun, 3 May 1998, happyelf wrote:
>>
>> A) As a gm, playing god with the players by deciding who
>> get such a power, which is well in excess of decisions
>> like stop signs and magnifying glasses, is a real kick.
>
>As opposed to:
>
>As a GM, plaing god with the players by deciding whose
>powers qualify for the 'invulnerable' criteria, and then
>yanking that away from them on a whim because, after all,
>they don't have it in the game mechanics, only by GM
>fiat.
>
No when you define something as a plot concept,. people nkow where they stand.
It allows a particular type of dialogue which is important in such
circumstances.
>> or
>> B) As a player, have the power-gamers urge to play an indestructable
>> character.
>
>Because anyone who plays a powerful character is a rampant munchkin.
>Uh-huh, right.
>
>I am really sick of that attitude, BTW. Let me climb up on my soapbox for
>a moment and say that playing powerful characters does not reflect at all
>on your roleplaying skills - although there are a lot of munchkins who
>powergame, there are also plenty of /good/ roleplayers who enjoy it too.
>
>I have played and enjoyed characters at both ends of the power spectrum,
>and I get really sick of the 'holier than thou' attitude that some people
>- including you, happyelf - seem to exude whenever powerful characters are
>brought up.
>
>If /you/ can't handle powerful characters, or don't enjoy playing them,
>fine. Play your games your way. But don't call me a 'powergamer' in a
>negative sense because I happen to like them.
>
Um, excuse me? i was the guy who was accused of liking IMAGE comics
becasue i did a post about characters with 'horsepower' being ok-
in fact i have never done a post before which was not on the side
of powerful charaters. Please do not suggest otherwise, it just
isn't true. I would also suggest that my version of invunerability
is more 'powerful' that yours, becasue it allows players to tinker
with what is defined, and portray the character as poweful
in a more complex and fully-realised manner.
Fine, i'm holier-than-thou as all hell, but PLEASE! I cut my
teeth on 'combat is a bad thing' vampire players and only rp-ers.
>> or
>> C) disagreeing with me, in an attempt to claim that i am at fault
>> when the truth is they just can't keep up with my logic (this means you,
timmy.)
>
>Well, since your logic may well be based on false premises, is it really
>worth keeping up with it?
>
>Your logic, as I understand it, runs something like this:
>
>Absolutes do not belong in HERO system.
>100% Damage Reduction is an absolute.
>Therefore, 100% damage reduction does not belong in HERO system.
>
>Of course, following your logic, Life Support doesn't belong in Champions
>either, because it's an absolute...
>
>J
>
No, my logic is this:
100% damage reduction is an infinitly viable concept within a category of powers
(ie directly involved in dice-rolling, ect) which should not be
infinite.
Such absolutes belong in the no-points section of a gm's notes, along
with omnipotence and the laws of physics.
Such plot devices should be kept seperate since they involve different
style of discourse between player and gm.
The value of 100% dr is inadequate and arbitary, and only serves to
incorrectly place the concept withing the realm of mechanics as opposed
to plot devices, which breeds confusion of exactly what princibles of
fairness is involved in which area.
go ahead and replay then we'll call it a day. Nothing to do with
you, but i just lost my enthusiams for this mode of discussion.
>"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
> To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
>
>
>
"enslve humanity willya?"
Core Alpha PBEM http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/3306/Pbem.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo magic.cyberone.com.au from rholding@actonline.com.au server root@c1-www.ispsys.net ip 210.8.19.250
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 00:43:23 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Damage Reduction (was Re: Desolidification)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Rick Holding writes:
>
> > Why 60 points? You sure as hell don't need to buy ego defense as
> > resistant. You should only need to have to buy the 40 point nonresistant
> > version.
>
> Assuming something like Mental Illusions manages to roll sufficiently high
> to do Body damage, non-resistant Mental Damage Reduction will do squat
> against the Body damage done by the illusion of a slug from a .45 hitting
> you sqare in the face.
>
> Non-resistant Mental Damage Reduction will also have no effect against a
> killing attack with BOECV.
Fair enough. 60 points, it is (unless you don't want to spend that
much...)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo magic.cyberone.com.au from rholding@actonline.com.au server root@c1-www.ispsys.net ip 210.8.19.250
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 00:52:54 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Sakura wrote:
>
> On 1 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> > Rick Holding writes:
> >
> > > Going through a wall and leaving an obvious path (an open space or
> > > a pile of rubble blocking the path) means tunnelling.
> >
> > Go read Tunnelling... leaving a hole or closing it behind you must be
> > specified when the poower is purchased. Either option is "free" but you
> > only get one.
>
> Lets see...do you mean the bit where it says 'The tunnel is normally left
> open behind the character. If a character wishes to be able to fill in
> the tunnel behind himself, the cost is +10 points.'?
>
> Not only is the 'fill in the tunnel' not free, but if you do buy it, you
> have the option of using it or not using it as you see fit.
Thanks. I didn't have my book handy when I wrote the first part.
Okay, character is able to fill in the tunnel behind himself. Hmmmm.
Certainly seems to indicate to me that the stuff that is being used to fill it
in with is the stuff from in front of the character at the time. I suppose
that certain special effects MAY get around the fact the the stuff is being
forcably removed from the front. However, the rock flows around me as I
travel forward is better as desolid as desolid does not leave a torn path.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 03:07:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> *yawn* so give him 100 body, with the special effect of
> 'just doesn't take any damage.' Oh, and 100 red to begin with.
> As i said, the 75%/20dr example was for HEROIC level campaign.
> Sawwy, star wars does not qualify. In fact neither does any
> campaign which inlolves 'indestructable' pc's of that magnitude.
Now you're talking specifics of certain campaigns and genre, which
will always vary. However, there still is a big difference between
"indestructable" and "sort of indestructable (unless the GM decides you
take damage this time)".
You argue that, for some reason, ignoring mechancs to just say
something is indestructable, though at GM's whim, is much more "book
valid" than introducing a mechanic to do the job. If that's the case, why
in the hell do we need any mechanics at all. Drop the rules, and just
play pretend.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 03:11:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> when the truth is they just can't keep up with my logic (this means you,
> timmy.)
Again, Fuck Off.
> Um, when did i do that? I'm assuming you
> actually read what i wrote, unlike mr gilberg earlier?
Actually, after repeatedly reading that you just don't like the
idea of an absolute, even when within concept, I'd assume that most, like
me, don't bother to read your posts.
I've read a few, and your lack of logic (contrary to your claims)
and lack of rule support (see Rat for an example of how to support
yourself with the rules) have made evident that reading what you write is
a mere waste of time.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo magic.cyberone.com.au from rholding@actonline.com.au server root@c1-www.ispsys.net ip 210.8.19.250
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 01:14:26 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Hmmm.. Nice response.(Nuts)
John and Ron Prins wrote:
> What about this power: Joe Hole opens holes in walls - functionally making
> part of the wall 'disappear' into another dimension. Joe Hole steps through,
> then brings the part back. Joe Hole _has_ to bring the part back, he can't
> leave it in limbo.
>
> Now, this power is NOT invisible. There's a hole. There might by shiny,
> noisy accompanying SFX. But once the bit is back, the wall is seamless and
> undamaged.
>
> This is an example of Tunnelling that does NOT leave any visible sign
> afterwards, only during. It does not damage the wall. It is patently not
> Desolid or Teleport. It should not require any advantages or limitations,
> just baseline tunneling with the option to close the hole. (maybe a small
> limitation that he must eventually close the hole, but that's really minor).
>
> My point? Tunnelling does not _necessarily_ damage the surface being
> tunnelled through. It's assumed, but that's all it is; an assumption.
A valid point. I have always assumed that tunnelling did in fact
damage the target. Throwing that assumption aside for a while does allow for
the "rubble" to appear to be undisturbed. As for your example above, thinking
for awhile, I came up with three or four different ways to do it, but they
would cause most people to scream blue murder. I leave well enough alone (for
now, anyways).
> Well, first off, when desolid you can't make an attack without Affects Solid
> advantage. So you can't just stick an arm out of a wall and attack. A
> tunnelling character could. An arm or hand is a small target, making the
> tunnelling energy projector kinda nasty. But the Desolid one has to give up
> desolid to attack, or buy hideously expensive Affects Solid powers.
Certainly, but if the desolid is only to allow a person to walk through
walls, and he has received a limitation for it, then he can't attack by the
fashion that you described. Unless he has the ability like Kitty Pryde who can
make some of her solid and some of her desolid at the same time. In which
case, the solid part is subject to attack. (Weak comeback, I know, but its the
best I could do on short notice.)
> Second, desolid characters by default 'look hazy' when using the power, so
> if you step out of a wall, everyone knows you've got Desolid (and cracks out
> the Affects Desolid EBs :-).
Same as above. He is only desolid while in the wall. (And yes, I did
read what you wrote. Stay with me for a while longer.)
> Hey, you probably paid too much. Relg's diviner ability could easily be done
> as Tunnelling - he could _even_ use his powers to make holes in rock if he
> wanted, and to use it _against_ opponants! Pushed a living Murgo right into
> a rock face and left him there! I'd build Relg's power like this:
>
> 1" Tunnelling, vs. 8 DEF, Option to leave no tunnel (about the hardest rock
> you'll find), Only through rock and stone (-1/2, not through dirt).
>
> 36 active, 24 real points.
>
> You wouldn't need UBO or UAO, as Tunnelling is a movement power. Grab the
> target, 'open a hole', shove him in, close it up. You wouldn't need life
> support, as Tunnelling assumes it, one way or another. Of course, if you
> leave someone behind, they don't have Tunnelling, so no life support, so
> bye-bye.
>
> Going the Desolid route, you'd have to have Desolid, UBO (one other, no
> range, does not lose the power) (+1/2), UAO (+1), Only through Rock and
> Stone (-3/4 according to your GM, I'd give it more); 100 active, 57 real,
> never mind the cost of Life Support. You could throw in Concentration, but
> that's appropriate for both constructs, I guess.
From my point of view at the time, Relg's ability seemed more like
desolid and I built that way. He had a few other disads that brought the price
down and he also had the making holes ability as an "attack".
The points that you brought up were good and support your case,
allowing that the assumption made that tunnelling doesn't damage the target is
valid. If it isn't valid, then tunnelling doesn't work for some cases.
Desolid can still be used as long as some ground rules are followed.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo magic.cyberone.com.au from rholding@actonline.com.au server root@c1-www.ispsys.net ip 210.8.19.250
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 01:20:18 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Tunnelling
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> > > But nowhere does it say it closes the hole leaving the substance the way
> > > you found it.
> >
> > That is because... IT IS A SPECIAL EFFECT!
>
> I really do have to agree with Rat, and others, here. When I
> started the debate, I was assuming some sort of "damage" to the substance
> traveled through by default with Tunneling, but that's a case of me trying
> to read a default SFX into a Hero mechanic.
Yea, me too!!!! (Hey guys, my F/U. I give in!)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 03:34:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: 100% DR Debate
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> But they do. Current damage reduction IS based on the idea that no matter
> how much
> it is reduced, *some* will get through- sakura agrees that is a valid point.
Then redefine or create a new power. And then we can get along to
defining point values. When there's a hole in the system ignoring it is
not the best way to deal with it.
> No, you claimed i was obnoxious and unintelligant. I said the same about you.
I said you're posts lacked any sort of reason and that you failed
to support yourself by the rules. Then you decided to bring in my
characteristics outside of the debate.
> I was also nice enough to give you the chance to threaten me personally
> which is something you probably need to do once in a while.
Only when someone gets insulting and disrespectful. Backup what
you say with something besides "I don't think Hero should have absolutes."
It'll contribute a whole lot more to this debate.
Oh, and even if you had said what you did to my face, I would have
given you _one_ warning. I'm reasonable enough to assume that your
upbringing may not have prepared you for the consequences of personally
insulting someone in a personal manner, and I'm willing to point the
consequences out. One warning is enough, however.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 03:39:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Good, a summary.
> 100% damage reduction is an infinitly viable concept within a category of powers
> (ie directly involved in dice-rolling, ect) which should not be
> infinite.
Read: He doesn't want absolutes in Hero.
> Such absolutes belong in the no-points section of a gm's notes, along
> with omnipotence and the laws of physics.
Um, I'd certainly charge for omnipotence, myself -- if taken by a
character and being in concept.
The point is, what are you going to charge for this plot device?
While a valid way to handle it, it certainly is worth _some_ points. It
would fill in a weak link in Hero to fill this inability to be actually
immune to certain effects if we were to add a new mechanic.
> Such plot devices should be kept seperate since they involve different
> style of discourse between player and gm.
Then put it in the rules as a new mechanic. It then becomes part
of the normal discource.
> The value of 100% dr is inadequate and arbitary, and only serves to
> incorrectly place the concept withing the realm of mechanics as opposed
> to plot devices, which breeds confusion of exactly what princibles of
> fairness is involved in which area.
And the value of EB is arbitary. As is Mind Control. And
Transform. And DEX. And everything else in Hero, actually.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo x6.boston.juno.com from dwtoomey@juno.com server @x6.boston.juno.com ip 205.231.101.23
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 05:54:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Desolidification)
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-13,15,17,20,22-25,27-33
From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David W Toomey)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 4
On 03 May 1998 09:23:43 -0400 Stainless Steel Rat
<ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes:
>David W Toomey writes:
>
>> Why would it defend you anyway? The defense of the DR is the
>reduction
>> of the Mental Illusions roll for effect.
>
>Damage Reduction applies to the damage done by a mental illusion just
>as
>much as Mental Defense applies. If you get Mental Defense against an
>illusory .45, you should get Mental Damage Reduction as well.
My point is that neither should defend vs the .45 damage. You don't get
double
use from defenses. M Def or Dam Reduction has *already* reduced the
effect of
the M Illusion-it doesn't seem fair to me that it *also* gets to reduce
the damage of the illusionary gun. If the dice of M Illusions was enough
*after defenses* to
result in a "does Body" result, as a GM, I would state that it is past
the defenses
now. I guess this is one to ask about for Hero 5th:
1) Do Mental defenses apply to damage from Illusions
2) How do normal Defenses apply-i.e. a Brick shot with an Illusion .45-
Hah!
David W Toomey
dwtoomey@juno.com
_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hotmail.com from dgraham882@hotmail.com server @f144.hotmail.com ip 207.82.251.23
X-Originating-IP: [194.25.73.207]
From: "" <dgraham882@hotmail.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Romantic Rival (how to?)
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 05:23:35 PDT
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>One of our characters has chosen the Romantic Rival disad. I've
decided
>it's time to hold his feet to the fire on that one, but I realized that
>I have no idea how to play one. Any suggestions?
>======================
Okay, here is the step-by-step breakdown of how to introduce Romantic
Rivalry into a campaign (apologies in advance for repeating things said
in previous responses):
1. What is a Romantic Rivalry?
A Romantic Rivalry means this: The PC is romantically interested in
another character, and he (the PC) is competing with a third character
(the Rival) in some manner, for some reason, for the attentions of his
Romantic Interest (the RI).
2. Who is the PC?
By this, I mean that the GM must consider the PC's personality, Psych
Lim's, etc. Why does he have these feelings for the RI? What does he
see in her? To what lengths will he go to "prove" himself and "win the
RI's attentions?
3. Who is the RI?
Nine times out of ten, the player will list the RI as either a DNPC, a
Psych Lim ("In Love With X"), or both, depending on how the GM and
player handle things. Check the PC's character sheet and background;
that is where you will get your first ideas on how to roleplay the RI.
4. Who is the Rival?
Is the Rival a fellow PC or an NPC? If the Rival is a fellow PC, it's
just a matter of discussing things offline with the Rival's player, just
to toss ideas around, not to tip your hand as to what will happen,
necessarily. However, for purposes of this discussion, let's assume
that the Rival is an NPC. In this case, you should briefly discuss
ideas with the PC's player, but then the final "draft" of the Rival's
stats, background, etc., are created by you the GM. Keep in mind: The
Rival MUST pose some sort of threat to the PC's relationship with his
RI, whether real or imagined. It must be a threat which is serious
enough to justify having the Disad for a while, and serious enough to be
interesting in play.
Note: By "serious," I mean serious within the PC's mind, at least.
Rivalry can be done in a pretty silly manner if the GM and player feel
like going that route.
4. What sort of relationship exists between the PC, the Rival, and the
RI?
This question will determine why a Rivalry exists in the first place.
Take into consideration whether or not the Rival is in a "superior
position." The definition of "superior position" could mean that the RI
loves the Rival and not the PC. The Rival could be the RI's
boyfriend/girlfriend, spouse, or even an ex that the RI still carries a
big torch for.
5. What brings the Rivalry into play?
For ideas on what sort of Rivalry to go with, and how to bring it into
the game, I would say again, check the character sheet and background of
the PC first. Brainstorm ideas with the player. Then check with pop
culture (and even real life experiences of yourself, your relatives, and
your friends and associates) for more ideas. Romantic Rivalry is one of
the most common themes you will find in fine art. Ideas are all over
the place. It's just a matter of looking around. Soap operas are
legendary for what they do with romantic entanglements. I would also
recommend such comic book titles as the X-series and New/Teen Titans,
which are filled with angst over, among other things, romance and the
failure of it to ever work out.
Once you've tossed around all the ideas and come up with what would be
most appropriate to the situation, you should be able to do more than
simply "hold his feet to the fire." Depending on how you handle this
Disad, you can make the PC's life a living hell. If he is The Tragedian
or The Romantic (see "Types of Champions Players" in the BBS), then this
Disad would be the type that the player lives for. Good luck and happy
gaming!
David Graham
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification)
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 03 May 1998 09:23:43 -0400
Lines: 35
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
David W Toomey writes:
> Why would it defend you anyway? The defense of the DR is the reduction
> of the Mental Illusions roll for effect.
Damage Reduction applies to the damage done by a mental illusion just as
much as Mental Defense applies. If you get Mental Defense against an
illusory .45, you should get Mental Damage Reduction as well.
[...]
> If bought with the (house rule) advantage Does Body. The official rules
> clearly state BOECV is Stun Only.
Hrm... I might have misremembered that... does non-resistant Damage
Reduction apply against the stun of a killing attack? If not, then
non-resistant Mental Damage Reduction will have no effect against a mental
killing attack.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNUxv1J6VRH7BJMxHAQFGnwP9EQuguCj+R6WkfFNmVWASbfUOfPfToSGb
DeS76tnQdwXOtmEN+hSWIAU/jQWv7r0EDQFd8pxZzm8vPIJ7UszvCyV8gWOVejTR
CwufclcTPTuLE+B/foRpEEYSIYuyr1hyq9bZfGZ2C4ubl3A7DrIXZ69vDWKDbCB9
gR+NOHYAUQs=
=ztzM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
\ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Tunnelling
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 03 May 1998 09:26:59 -0400
Lines: 29
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Tim R Gilberg writes:
> I do have a problem with a tunneling character merely sticking an
> arm or hand out to attack, though. This seems unbalancing.
It is a suprise maneuver, worth an OCV bonus the first time he tries it.
As soon as it becomes "old hat", he stops getting the bonus.
Oh, and by the way, just because you can tunnel through rock does not mean
you can see through it.
Or breathe in it.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNUxwoJ6VRH7BJMxHAQFUSAP9ENWaFkaQvS4kroTeKYAU8Ofi3S71vpPQ
PLFnC0sZJwnhXXCfbxYziVTEK6ZIgzT+uy4zXs1RB4l4XhPCQxRrVgsRx5hViDRL
oCqXuor9OsfL6XWN22tq2wIpfNvCdeYBTAGgeqS3QL1F9UUjjaVaLemw4mftXz79
c/TJ1Vj70cg=
=UX8t
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
\ head.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Tunnelling
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 03 May 1998 09:29:36 -0400
Lines: 36
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Michael (Damon) or Peni R Griffin writes:
> So, 'X' points worth of Tunneling to create a tunnel, +10 points to fill it
> in behind you, with the assumption that the "fill" is readily perceptible
> (i.e., solid concrete wall is now a big pile of concrete chunks,
No, the fill-in is a special effect. It might be a pile of concrete
chunks, it might be concrete that appears to be poured and set just like
the original, or it just might be the original. It is a special effect.
[...]
> For example, you Tunnel through a massive vault door, several feet thick
> (assume NORAD HQ or some similarly protected facility). Might not the
> structural integrity of the door be somewhat affected by this afterward,
> bonds weakened at the molecular level or whatever?
As much as a Superman lifting a building by a corner. To wit, not in a
4-color game.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNUxxQJ6VRH7BJMxHAQHFvgP/Y+iTBFaTNTzmtQenyNkyMdKTkxKiAszu
FfKPwSUCCar81e/9MlJEqi6LXIw9ONm/AECxHN9bVmJMKmjhjqvAQ14mvbt39h1W
K5F/PItbGuT7gj6+Vd8bgpRhbT80GpFo4rH2Kbai3ERJUdQpkph0BKWMwPzvE5wZ
Bj9t31PISs0=
=Xce3
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
\ Earth, presumably from outer space.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 03 May 1998 09:41:49 -0400
Lines: 39
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Sakura writes:
> So in that game, invulnerability cost (if I remember your previous post
> correctly) 30 points.
Then again, the way I figure it, if total vulnerability is 0 points, total
invulnerability is infinite points.
[snip!]
If you are playing a game in which there is one PC, the PC most probably is
a plot device, so it really does not matter how much things cost. You and
the GM are probably going to play just about everything by ear. This is
your average solo title comic book.
But in most games there are ~2-5 other PCs generally working together. The
things that can work in a solo title will not work so well in a team title.
A character that cannot be hurt at all and can still do things just as
effectively as other characters on the team is going to adversely affect
the funness of the game for the other players.
That is why I do not see a need for 100% Damage Reduction.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNUx0Gp6VRH7BJMxHAQGgXQP+PIXdyP1tainCdbnCGDRCVmZS5YYdHSTi
URY8wkqgr47xK///JuKXJSj7rSWdZmgsB9SZsgXGyNJ4JULXNEf9xbl2+qh85tdT
Ule0R14SZeYO3zlMVHv5eouz9i4byU1AD48hZf9vLn1ONL5RIfL6AW2SCQHkOdzF
Klj9I+S1/WY=
=rVmx
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
\
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo jcs1.jcstate.edu from ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu server @jcs1.jcstate.edu ip 204.117.72.52
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 10:32:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
To: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Reply-to: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Sat, 2 May 1998, happyelf wrote:
Hi,
I couldn't really see a use for un-limited 100% DR in a superhero
campagin. If I were to allow something like Sf/x reduction, the point
value of the power would probally be more than my players could afford
(within the campagin limits; so they would need special permission to get
the power in addition to my approval after pointing to that STOP sign).
In a non-supers game, I can see 100% DR being useful for certain
plot related NPC villians... In a Call of Ctuhulu type setting, where
nothing but an obscure occult text or ritual, or ancient mediallion
located in a remote Brazilian tomb can stop the rampaging R'cKehNeh-
that's where I'd use the 100% DR. Why? Well, he isn't made of mundane
stuffs; more like a stuff beyond corporeal - pure evil. And it's a
plot device. As it's rampaging across the country side, I wouldn't want
the one PC calling up his old buddy the President telling him to launch
some tatical nuclear weapons at old R'cKehNeh (it would be a bitch rolling
those nth ammount of dice and actually having R'cKehNeh bite the big one).
Kind of deflates the investigative/problem solving part of the adventure,
allowing the 'big gun' munchkin gamers in the group to circumvent that
aspect of role playing and get down into some roll playing.
...and if you don't believe in absolutes, there's allways
%99.999 DR for all you true believers out there.
-Jason Sullivan
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 08:43:02 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 6
At 08:30 AM 5/3/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
>Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
>Subject: Re: Desolidification
>> when the truth is they just can't keep up with my logic (this means you,
>> timmy.)
>
> Again, F--
Tim, grow up. These asinine outbursts of profanity aren't welcome from
Rat, and they're not from you either.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 08:45:31 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 100% DR Debate
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 7
At 01:19 PM 5/3/1998 +1000, happyelf wrote:
>At 03:28 AM 5/2/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>> Well, the impossible has happened.
>>
>> Someone more obstinent than Rat has arisen.
>>
>> Happyelf, consider yourself flattered that I compare you to Rat.
>>He at least uses some reason and logic to support himself -- you use
>>assumptions based on "I like it in a certain way."
>>
>> (Rat does do the latter, but backs it up. Your posts have not.)
>>
>
>Look, it's not my problem if my logic wooshes right over your head. How
about,
>when you come across such a post, you try and understand it instead being
defensive
>and calling names? Frankly my posts were based on the mechanical princibels
>which hero
>is basedupon. I realise this is a change from the loopholing and meaningless
>numbercrunching which dominates much of the list, but it's no reason for you
>to become offended. Frankly if you can't see the logic behind my arguments,
>you most likely won't understand this post becasue it uses numerous words of
>more than one syllable.
"Jane, you ignorant slut..."
When a debate breaks down into this level of childish name-calling, it's
time for said debate to be set aside.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo jcs1.jcstate.edu from ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu server @jcs1.jcstate.edu ip 204.117.72.52
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 10:56:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Invulnrability, Immortality, Eternality
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
...since we're on the subject, why don't we discuss the various Sf/x
and mechanics of Invulnrability, Immortality, and Eternality.
Someone who is ageless is pretty much easy, right? LS: Does not
Age. How would the mechanic work for a LS:DnA that requied maintainence?
A certain ancient Egyptian Tea that keeps Farah'Sin Al youthful? ...and
what if, that 'upkeep' on the maintence didn't occur? Could you set up
a 'side effect' of, over a period of time, the character would slowly age?
Characters that this type of construct that I think this might
apply to would be mummies and various comic book characters, such as R'as
al Ghul (whose 'immortality' stretches further than mere agelessness).
Another odd type of immortality is that of the disembodied brain
who is surgically transfered from body to body (the brain, or even the
head istelf). This has been used in a number of superhero genres, as well
as horror. For a character to possess such a power, how would you work
the construct? There would be life sustained with life suport (such as
the infamous 'Brain That Wouldn't Die', 'Body Parts', and other sci-fi
horror...) and then those that would survive w/o life support (one of
Superman's old villians whose name escapes me at the time).
Then there is Serial Immortality... the spirit or soul 'hopping'
from body to body, either possessing, usurping, or replacing the soul of
the unfortunate vessel... Robots that can be rebuilt, mad mystic Latvian
dictators who have honed their magical and scientific skills to the point
of beging able to transfer their conciousness to the vat grown clones in
their respective dungeon labortories, and phoenixes who rise from the
ashes fully formed are examples of this type of immortality.
Then there is a general 'tough' immortality; you take them down,
but they get up again. Wether the body dies and reanimates or never d ies
at all... Would this have an effect on game mechanics?
I hope to hear responses... I look forward to them... I can work
on The Ultimate Immortal in the meantime. :)
Jason Sullivan
-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+-
"Fools are my theme, let satire be my song."
-Lord Byron; English Bards and Scotch Reviewers. Line 6.
-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo emerald from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 09:05:27 -0700
To: HERO System Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Tunnelling
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 5
At 06:38 PM 5/2/1998 -0500, Sakura wrote:
>On Sat, 2 May 1998, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>
>> > At the same time, it doesn't say that it *doesn't* leave it looking the
>> >same way, so the general assumption is that it's SFX dependent.
>> > Not that your point isn't a salient one. I think it could be well
>> >argued that some form of Invisible Power Effects should be needed to make
>> >the tunnel vanish after it's used.
>
>Hmm. Well, I've never exactly been sure what 'Invisible Power Effects'
>means on a movement power, anyway. "I'm running, but you can't tell that
>I am?" I suppose it /could/ mean that you leave no trace (and that, IMHO,
>would be a better way of buying the ninja's 'walk without trace' power
>than the currently suggested 'Gliding' method). Does that mean, though,
>that flying or superleaping characters leave traces behind them? (I
>suppose superleaping characters tend to leave tracks or whatever -
>craters, in some cases - at takeoff and landing points, so maybe...)
There's that. I've allowed "Invisibility vs Forensics" on a couple of
occasions (actually under different names, but that's the basic idea) so
that traces of one's presence wouldn't be left. These were for Running and
Teleport, but it coule work for Tunneling this way.
That's a good observation that this is a good way to represent Running
without footprints; the original Invisible Running was just vs forensic
traces (like picking up soil or leaving behind fibers). I'd still use
Gliding to avoid setting off pressure plates though (unless one were to
consider that a form of Invisibility vs Touch).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 11:08:47 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 1
> In a non-supers game, I can see 100% DR being useful for certain
>plot related NPC villians... In a Call of Ctuhulu type setting, where
>nothing but an obscure occult text or ritual, or ancient mediallion
>located in a remote Brazilian tomb can stop the rampaging R'cKehNeh-
>that's where I'd use the 100% DR. Why? Well, he isn't made of mundane
>stuffs; more like a stuff beyond corporeal - pure evil.
In a non-super CoC type setting, it should be sufficient to equip the
heroes with heroic-level weapons and put them up against a R'cKehNeh with
superheroic defenses;
no need for 100% damage reduction if your ordinary PD/ED, Armor or whatever
can handily counter the max damage rolls for the PC's weapons. And doesn't
"beyond corporeal" kind of imply Desolid? Prohibit the PCs from using the
Affects Desolid Advantage on their weapons, and there's no problem.
It's true that you don't want PCs to be able to take out any Elder Gods,
but creating an imbalance between PC attack capabilities and major opponent
defense capabilities will ensure this without the need for any rules
additions, modifications, "logical extensions" or
interpretations-not-everyone-agrees-on. The goal of the PCs should be to
counter the immediate goal of the R'cKehNeh, and either banish it to The
Beyond or have it retreat there in frustration, to wait until The Stars Are
Right once again. A player who thinks he should be able to kill one of
these things doesn't understand the genre. Kill their minions, yes. Kill
the Elder Things, no.
Separate question(I assume this has already come up, but if so I missed
it): What was the group consensus -- wait, let me rephrase that :) What
were the various group opinions on layering existing levels of DR, to
approach 100% without actually getting there? Three layers of 75% DR,
each successive layer operating against damage that got through the
previous layer, would provide 98% DR...
100 pts - 75% DR = 25 pts
25 pts - 75% DR = 6.25 pts
6.25 pts - 75% DR = 1.5625 pts (rounds to 2 pts)
Damon
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-SMTP: helo dillinger.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@dillinger.io.com ip 199.170.88.11
X-Authentication-Warning: dillinger.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 11:46:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 2
On 3 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> A character that cannot be hurt at all and can still do things just as
> effectively as other characters on the team is going to adversely affect
> the funness of the game for the other players.
This is /exactly/ why I want a point cost for the power instead of calling
it a 'plot device', because them you'll hav a charater who is
invulnerable, and that is basically his power. He's not superstrong, or
superfast, or able to shoot laser beams from his navel. He is extremely
powerful in one area, and weak in many others.
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-SMTP: helo dillinger.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@dillinger.io.com ip 199.170.88.11
X-Authentication-Warning: dillinger.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 11:50:38 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 3
On 3 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> David W Toomey writes:
>
> > Why would it defend you anyway? The defense of the DR is the reduction
> > of the Mental Illusions roll for effect.
>
> Damage Reduction applies to the damage done by a mental illusion just as
> much as Mental Defense applies. If you get Mental Defense against an
> illusory .45, you should get Mental Damage Reduction as well.
Um...but you don't get Mental Def against an illusionary .45. AT least,
the example in the HERO book implies that you use it against your regular
def:
"He [Mental Marauder] creates the illusion that he pulls out an energy
pistol, fires, and hits Jaguar...Before Jaguar has a chance to disbelieve,
he takes 40/5 = 8d6 damage against his energy defense."
> [...]
>
> > If bought with the (house rule) advantage Does Body. The official rules
> > clearly state BOECV is Stun Only.
>
> Hrm... I might have misremembered that... does non-resistant Damage
> Reduction apply against the stun of a killing attack? If not, then
> non-resistant Mental Damage Reduction will have no effect against a mental
> killing attack.
Non-resistant DR doesn't affect killing attacks at all.
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-SMTP: helo dillinger.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@dillinger.io.com ip 199.170.88.11
X-Authentication-Warning: dillinger.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 12:22:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Invulnerable happyelves and stuff
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 8
OK, I'm going to collect all of my responses to happyelf in one final
message. I think its clear that neither of us are going to directly
convince each other, even though I think we've both raised some good
points.
For those watching from the stands (and maybe for Mr. Elf, since I guess I
never came out directly and said it) let me give my criteria for what I'm
looking for in an invulnerability power.
- Persistant. It shouldn't matter if the character is asleep or
distracted or whatever. If someone wants invulnerability that only works
if they're aware of an attack, they can put a limitation on it, much like
you'd do with Armor or DR.
- Complete. It should prevent damage from the attack. Maybe I won't ever
get this with Champions, and maybe it is too powerful. I don't know - has
anyone used 100% DR and found it too powerful for the points paid?
Knockback. Happyelf, you have really got this thing for knockback and
misunderstanding what I am saying. Let me go over my thought processes on
the subject and maybe it'll be clear.
- 'Taking damage from an attack' is the direct result of the attack - the
force of the blow, if you will. If Grond punches someone, they take
damage.
- 'Knockback' is also a direct result of the damage, in that, if you whack
something hard enough, it goes flying.
- However, 'knockback /damage/' is not a direct result of being hit by the
power. It's an /indirect/ result of it - it's a /direct/ result of
slamming into the ground/wall/whatever. This means that Mr.
Invulnerable-to-Energy man will take damage from slamming into a
wall...just as he should, no matter what slammed him into the wall. (Mr.
Invulnerable-to-Physical Man wouldn't, but that's because of his defenses)
>>> Yes. .. but you just said 'immune to fire' means you can't take
>>> damage from fire. In that case how would you explain someone
>>> with 100%red and NO ls?
>>
>> That's the player's job, not mine. I'm not about to say 'that
shouldn't
>> exist just because /I/ can't think of an SFX for it.' I can't think of
>> SFX for 'indirect Running' either, but that doesn't mean I'll say it's
>> impossible to explain or purchase in my campaign.
> Unm, why not? That's like me saying that just becasue i
> can't see how a nnd can cause body damage, i should still let
> a pc ahve it. Of course i can see a way it could function, but
> the issue remains.
Because my players might be able to think of them. I won't let them buy
it if /they/ can't think of an SFX, but until the subject comes up (I
wanna buy Indirect Running, Jeff) I'm not going to say they can't have it.
All they have to do is convince me.
>> There's an Arabian tale (I think) about a blacksmith who was given a
>> blessing, that he would never be burned by any fire. This would
probably
>> be an example of 100% DR vs fire, but no LS: Heat.
> yes but it's still an example of how you can hget 100%dr and
> still take damage 'from' 'fire'.
Um...no. 'Fire' and 'heat' are very different. I can walk around in a
desert for hours and (assuming I'm properly clad) my skin will not burn,
my hair will not catch on fire, etc - but I will still be dehydrated,
tired, etc. Now, if they wanted 100% DR from /heat/, that's fine, they
can buy that, at a lesser limitation level, because it encompasses more.
>>> And you can get
>>> 'Well, yeah, I'm invulnerable to fire. Except it can knock me out.'
>>> anyway, from a guy with no life support, or a dozen other things.
>>
>> Yeah, but those people have purchased their powers in a way that they
have
>> basically said 'Yeah, I realize that I could be knocked out or whatever
by
>> stuff I'm invulnerable to, that's OK'. If a player wants that, fine.
If
>> a player doesn't want that, that's fine by my book too - but apparently
it
>> isn't in yours.
> Okay, let's say the fire nvolves a drain on your highest ap power level-
> makes sence in a more realistic game. You now have a guy with
> 100% red who can say that sentence all the time.
Um, no, let's /not/ say that, because I can see no reason for Fire to be
built/modeled as a Drain in that way. Maybe a Drain on END or STUN or
something, but a Drain on highest AP power level? That's not normal fire.
Re: the limit level for 'only vs. fire':
>> I'd call it a -1 in most superhero games, but that's not the main issue
>> here.
>ExCUSE me? fire guy isn't going to be encountering fire a lot? *lol*
Yeah, but he's going to be encountering /lots/ of other energy attacks,
too. A -1 assumes that about half of the energy-based attacks directed at
him are going to be fire-based (half price, half utility) which is
actually a pretty high percentage for most campaigns, but it's close
enough. Not to mention it's what the book suggests.
In my next post...the solution!
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-SMTP: helo dillinger.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@dillinger.io.com ip 199.170.88.11
X-Authentication-Warning: dillinger.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 12:32:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Invulnerability: the Final Fantasy HERO solution
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 9
Well, after the big discussion, and thinking a /lot/ about how
invulnerability works, and absolutes in HERO system, and such, I realized
that there was in fact an absolute that nobody had brought up...poison.
There's LS: immunity to poison - an absolute, but it only works with the
cooperation of the power...basically, all poisons have (or ought to have)
the limitation 'Not vs. ppl immune to poison' (or, if they're an NND, the
defense would be 'Immune to Poison')
Therefore, I'm pondering the following solution: all attacks and effects
in Final Fantasy HERO will have the limitation 'not vs. Immune to X'. A
Fire spell would have 'Not vs. Immune to Fire', for example.
What I'm searching for now is suggestions on what level of limitation that
would be, and conversely, how much the 'Immune to Fire' Power/Talent/Perk
would cost.
This will at least give me a solution for this campaign (which is one
containing plenty of absolutes, as anyone who has played the Final Fantasy
series knows) and allow more time to ponder the problem's solution in a
way that can be applicable to all campaigns.
The only reason this is doable in a FFH campaign is because of the limited
number of special effects allowed by the genre, and the fact that I'm
creating all the spells. (Yeah, I'm sure I could just handwave it, but ya
know, I like having the solidity of a mechanic underlying the game, even
if it is very world-specific. Perhaps one of my flaws, I don't know.)
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 13:55:21 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Damage Reduction
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 10
At 05:54 AM 5/3/1998 -0500, David W Toomey wrote:
>
>On 03 May 1998 09:23:43 -0400 Stainless Steel Rat
><ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> writes:
>>David W Toomey writes:
>>
>>> Why would it defend you anyway? The defense of the DR is the
>>reduction
>>> of the Mental Illusions roll for effect.
>>
>>Damage Reduction applies to the damage done by a mental illusion just
>>as
>>much as Mental Defense applies. If you get Mental Defense against an
>>illusory .45, you should get Mental Damage Reduction as well.
>
>My point is that neither should defend vs the .45 damage. You don't get
double
>use from defenses. M Def or Dam Reduction has *already* reduced the effect of
>the M Illusion-it doesn't seem fair to me that it *also* gets to reduce
>the damage of the illusionary gun. If the dice of M Illusions was enough
>*after defenses* to
>result in a "does Body" result, as a GM, I would state that it is past
>the defenses now.
Well, that would be just fine except that that the illusion itself and
the damage caused by it are two different attacks (like a Choke Hold that
must follow a successful Grab, and the Grab itself -- or, perhaps more
fittingly, a "put-em-down" punch that can only be used following a
successful Martial Throw, and the Martial Throw itself).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from filkhero@usa.net server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 15:38:39 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 11
On Sunday, May 03, 1998 1:28 AM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
<snip>
> Again, Fuck Off.
That's two.
While I find personal insults offensive, and particularly ones
implying or stating outright that I am stupid, I do not think that
this is appropriate in this forum. In fact, I find it very
inappropriate for this forum, in particular.
Do it again, and you will achieve the status of being the first person
on this list to be killfilled by me. Which I think will be a shame.
Filksinger
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 03 May 1998 19:14:57 -0400
Lines: 23
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 12
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Sakura writes:
> This is /exactly/ why I want a point cost for the power instead of
> calling it a 'plot device',
Infinite defense costs infinite points.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNUz6b56VRH7BJMxHAQFFCQQAjaSy/rMx/ZjYDsoNsGYsmgcPiTJDggmC
2pdul0EzWBY8KvaXapJc5hJSi5K628sy9Lc2SdY2R6cO5xJc8NhhJbzfupa6/mSY
39sYxsqrfqCD5v/0r+8iZFN41VQAf5j97uRZQDQWQNhAzlNp9YJrIGh62BdMTaUm
ejI5+BMHODo=
=pZS2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 03 May 1998 19:18:52 -0400
Lines: 33
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 14
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Jason Sullivan writes:
> I couldn't really see a use for un-limited 100% DR in a superhero
> campagin. If I were to allow something like Sf/x reduction, the point
> value of the power would probally be more than my players could afford
My SFX reduction is inherently limited because the applicable SFX must be
specified at the time of purchase. What qualifies there is pretty much the
same thing that would qualify as an Elemental Control (and *THAT* should go
a long way towards GM's being a bit more restrictive on what constitutes a
tight category of effects :). And it is mechanically limited like NND:
characters may have only one form of SFX reduction without an exception
from the GM.
Cost is much the same as Damage Reduction: 30/60/90/120 for 25/50/75/100%
reduction vs. a particular special effect.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNUz7W56VRH7BJMxHAQEgmQP/dGSjR2B2ofPdIxEMHhPPLbK4SrIkGx9q
zZ/UkgXR/eMBfpFxcFdObHLcUCGMES/kHBls0DKvM4z36U55MRICI8iCeshRuEcE
zkN6XGArYr73z3DXXgQO0solkSwE0iVRfKmy+evEmYMiZrtIBOwkvXR/1tVWFOXh
EbnoIRqLj+Q=
=1ihc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and
\ kept under refrigeration.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 18:28:39 -0500
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 16
At 03:38 PM 5/3/98 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>On Sunday, May 03, 1998 1:28 AM, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>
><snip>
>> Again, Fuck Off.
>
>
>That's two.
I won't presume to speak for the list moderator, but two would be enough
for most lists. Obnoxious behavior is one thing -- I'm guilty of that
myself -- but when it degenerates to name calling and outright profanity,
maybe someone needs a time out.
Damon
------------------
Anyone can become angry -- that is easy.
But to be angry with the right person,
to the right degree, at the right time,
for the right purpose, and in the right way --
this is not easy.
-- Aristotle
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo post.mail.demon.net from chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk server @post-11.mail.demon.net ip 194.217.242.40
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 00:33:53 +0100
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Ultimate Utility Belt URL
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 17
Sorry to mess you folks around, but the URL is now
http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk/hero/uub/main.htm
Sorry for the mix up.
I am uploading the page at the same time that I send this mail. It's
really jst to let you all know that I really AM getting on with it! The
only stuff working right now is the mian page, and the links page.
Please submit links, writeups etc (or feel free to steal whatever I put
up... when I put it up!!)
TTFN
Chris.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 18:34:48 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 15
> > This is /exactly/ why I want a point cost for the power instead of
> > calling it a 'plot device',
>
> Infinite defense costs infinite points.
Oops. Looks like the BBB is wrong. It has desolid, which grants
infinite defense, for only 40 points.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 03 May 1998 20:00:13 -0400
Lines: 25
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 18
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Tim R Gilberg writes:
> Oops. Looks like the BBB is wrong. It has desolid, which grants
> infinite defense, for only 40 points.
Affects Desolid.
'Nuff said.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNU0FC56VRH7BJMxHAQG09AP+KILL7/RjD3gp9IiAw0Qx0qyrBu0nwnsK
Y2U4dX7Mrd+iIKK5a0MT8bFFSY3Fvr4tiRiYsZH8M00mlJnRtOKBsQSAAHkbe6oa
CbQ4Lir/7Qk28by19GncqpbEhkUv3kSFjW93kIkzsMb0AMbUoofeH7ogArP2rLmW
7+RmKV6Q8Rw=
=jlcE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and
\ kept under refrigeration.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-SMTP: helo dillinger.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@dillinger.io.com ip 199.170.88.11
X-Authentication-Warning: dillinger.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 19:16:04 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 19
On 3 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> My SFX reduction is inherently limited because the applicable SFX must be
> specified at the time of purchase. What qualifies there is pretty much the
> same thing that would qualify as an Elemental Control (and *THAT* should go
> a long way towards GM's being a bit more restrictive on what constitutes a
> tight category of effects :). And it is mechanically limited like NND:
> characters may have only one form of SFX reduction without an exception
> from the GM.
>
> Cost is much the same as Damage Reduction: 30/60/90/120 for 25/50/75/100%
> reduction vs. a particular special effect.
How would you account for the varying commonality of different special
effects? i.e. say someone had SFX Reduction: Ice, and someone else had SFX
Reduction: Cold. Both would protect vs. ice-based attacks, but SFXR:Cold
would also protect vs that Dex Drain (numbing cold), etc.
Maybe there should be different sets of costs based on how common the SFX
is? (Maybe based on Uncommon/Common/Very Common, like Vulnerability is?)
I would strongly suggest this, since otherwise 'SFX Reduction: Flame' and
'SFX Reduction: Kinetic Energy' would be worth the same, even though the
latter is far more likely to appear than the former.
This idea intrigues me, though. I'm also curious about the underlying
thought processes, especially since you're against 100% DR - isn't 100%
SFXR an 'infinite defense', therefore costing infinite points? Is it
somehow not infinite because it's limited (only vs. X)? If that's the
case, why is DR infinite - it's also limited (only vs. Energy or only vs.
Physical)? Where is the line drawn, and why? I'd really like to see how
your thoughts on this ran, because it seems like its the missing link
between the 100% DR crowd and the non-100% DR crowd.
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 19:35:50 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 20
> > Oops. Looks like the BBB is wrong. It has desolid, which grants
> > infinite defense, for only 40 points.
>
> Affects Desolid.
A crocked mechanic, and unnecessary with being effected by SFX.
> 'Nuff said.
How? It's still invulnerable do all but very certain
circumstances. For triple the points, one can be invulnerable to _one_
category. One is still quite vulnerable to the other categories of
damage. One could concievably take immunity to all three major types, but
I'd leave a note in the rules warning of the danger of this. (That, and
the fact that the cost is 360, would tend to curb abuse.)
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 03 May 1998 20:36:24 -0400
Lines: 46
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 21
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Sakura writes:
> How would you account for the varying commonality of different special
> effects? i.e. say someone had SFX Reduction: Ice, and someone else had SFX
> Reduction: Cold. Both would protect vs. ice-based attacks, but SFXR:Cold
> would also protect vs that Dex Drain (numbing cold), etc.
SFX Reduction: Ice would protect against large chunks of ice moving at
several hundred miles per hour; SFX Reduction: Cold would not. The two
overlap; neither is a subset of the other.
> Maybe there should be different sets of costs based on how common the SFX
> is? (Maybe based on Uncommon/Common/Very Common, like Vulnerability is?)
> I would strongly suggest this, since otherwise 'SFX Reduction: Flame' and
> 'SFX Reduction: Kinetic Energy' would be worth the same, even though the
> latter is far more likely to appear than the former.
Except that "kinetic energy" is not a special effect. "SFX Reduction:
Kinetic Energy" is actually Physical Damage Reduction. "Bullets" is a
special effect, so SFX Reduction: Bullets would be valid.
> This idea intrigues me, though. I'm also curious about the underlying
> thought processes, especially since you're against 100% DR - isn't 100%
> SFXR an 'infinite defense', therefore costing infinite points?
No, it is not. Stop thinking of SFX Reduction as a form of Damage
Reduction, because they are conceptually different powers, even though they
function similarly. Damage Reduction defends against a game mechanic. SFX
Reduction defends against a special effect.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNU0Nh56VRH7BJMxHAQGT4wP/enW0qLv7K/4+yeVMYBbcTM00XEg9UUfH
3DH/MilCTDkuNrfVeL6v0qTtXfbR5PDwNJ63LAdcV+CQC3Lp4dieUHxeMT4zhfwB
AFs1ll03EyLxW541/sCc8081fMqfjftMXnU6DeLk5eLNcneve+Jk1ql5qh3kWqir
glMHdSQPxOw=
=mDQv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
\ Earth, presumably from outer space.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-SMTP: helo pentagon.io.com from traveler@io.com server traveler@pentagon.io.com ip 199.170.88.5
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: traveler owned process doing -bs
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 19:51:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 22
On Sun, 3 May 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> > > Oops. Looks like the BBB is wrong. It has desolid, which grants
> > > infinite defense, for only 40 points.
> >
> > Affects Desolid.
>
> A crocked mechanic, and unnecessary with being effected by SFX.
>
> > 'Nuff said.
>
> How? It's still invulnerable do all but very certain
> circumstances. For triple the points, one can be invulnerable to _one_
> category. One is still quite vulnerable to the other categories of
> damage. One could concievably take immunity to all three major types,
> but I'd leave a note in the rules warning of the danger of this. (That,
> and the fact that the cost is 360, would tend to curb abuse.)
Actually, closer to double the price; 40-point Desolid costs END to use,
so you'd need to take a +1 Advantage (Reduced END Cost: none, Presistent)
to match that feature. OTOH, Desolid gives you a lot of abilities that
100% Damage Reduction wouldn't, such as the ability to walk through walls
(but that's another thread), and immunity from knockback. 120 points for
Invulnerability to Physical damage doesn't seem very overpriced to me...
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-SMTP: helo dillinger.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@dillinger.io.com ip 199.170.88.11
X-Authentication-Warning: dillinger.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 20:06:16 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 23
On 3 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> Sakura writes:
> > Maybe there should be different sets of costs based on how common the SFX
> > is? (Maybe based on Uncommon/Common/Very Common, like Vulnerability is?)
> > I would strongly suggest this, since otherwise 'SFX Reduction: Flame' and
> > 'SFX Reduction: Kinetic Energy' would be worth the same, even though the
> > latter is far more likely to appear than the former.
>
> Except that "kinetic energy" is not a special effect.
Sure it is. I could take an EC: Kinetic Energy Control. It'd have
Physical Absorbtion feeding to an END Battery, and a variety of effects
fueled by that battery: Flight, Superleap, Hand Attack, no-range
Telekinesis (only to throw), and, of course, SFXR Kinetic Energy.
Basically, the power is that the character can absorb and re-emit kinetic
energy. Valid character concept, at least in my book. I don't think
anyone reading a comic book would think it was out of place, either.
However, if you want a different example for differing levels of
usefulness, how about SFXR: Metal vs. SFXR: Ferrous Metal? Yes, one could
do SFXR: Ferrous Metal as Metal, only vs. Ferrous metals - but there's
nothing in the power to tell you that 'SFXR:Metal' is what to take. This
is why I suggested using the Uncommon/Common/Very Common scheme for costs.
How about SFXR: Light and SFXR:Lasers? Light protection would protect you
from any light-based attacks, which include lasers in my book. Lasers
would only protect you from coherent light. Clearly they're worth
differing amounts of points.
> "SFX Reduction:
> Kinetic Energy" is actually Physical Damage Reduction. "Bullets" is a
> special effect, so SFX Reduction: Bullets would be valid.
'Bullets' vs. 'Projectile Weapons' then.
> > This idea intrigues me, though. I'm also curious about the underlying
> > thought processes, especially since you're against 100% DR - isn't 100%
> > SFXR an 'infinite defense', therefore costing infinite points?
>
> No, it is not.
Why /isn't/ it infinite? If I had your SFXR: Fire, I would take no damage
from any fire based attack, no matter whether its 2d6 or 200d6 or
2,000,000d6, right? How is that not just as infinite as 100% Damage
Reduction?
> Stop thinking of SFX Reduction as a form of Damage
> Reduction, because they are conceptually different powers, even though they
> function similarly. Damage Reduction defends against a game mechanic. SFX
> Reduction defends against a special effect.
That has no bearing on whether its infinite or not, though.
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo wnsc_mail.centraltx.net from ronald@centraltx.net server root@mail.centraltx.net ip 208.135.247.48
From: "Ron Abitz" <ronald@centraltx.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 20:13:45 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 24
----------
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
> Sakura writes:
>
> > How would you account for the varying commonality of different special
> > effects? i.e. say someone had SFX Reduction: Ice, and someone else had
SFX
> > Reduction: Cold. Both would protect vs. ice-based attacks, but
SFXR:Cold
> > would also protect vs that Dex Drain (numbing cold), etc.
>
> SFX Reduction: Ice would protect against large chunks of ice moving at
> several hundred miles per hour; SFX Reduction: Cold would not. The two
> overlap; neither is a subset of the other.
>
> > Maybe there should be different sets of costs based on how common the
SFX
> > is? (Maybe based on Uncommon/Common/Very Common, like Vulnerability
is?)
> > I would strongly suggest this, since otherwise 'SFX Reduction: Flame'
and
> > 'SFX Reduction: Kinetic Energy' would be worth the same, even though
the
> > latter is far more likely to appear than the former.
>
> Except that "kinetic energy" is not a special effect. "SFX Reduction:
> Kinetic Energy" is actually Physical Damage Reduction. "Bullets" is a
> special effect, so SFX Reduction: Bullets would be valid.
>
Which would stop bullets but not a rock, nonexplosive cannon shell, or a
punch even thou they all do damage the same way? Aka impact damage.
Ron Abitz
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 03 May 1998 21:21:28 -0400
Lines: 30
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 25
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Dataweaver writes:
> OTOH, Desolid gives you a lot of abilities that 100% Damage Reduction
> wouldn't, such as the ability to walk through walls (but that's another
> thread), and immunity from knockback.
And the fact that you cannot affect anything in the "real" world without an
advantage just as crocked as "affects desolid".
> 120 points for Invulnerability to Physical damage doesn't seem very
> overpriced to me...
It has no business in a game with more than one PC.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNU0YFZ6VRH7BJMxHAQHA1AP/cgrHqGIpMXGkb6crTJ2txs4sm8rcLPzR
uDk9mptZrTxvsz1Q9QD0gBiAT9lPYqtwwZxdgi7g0ofsH90FYHQ4nm72mtfMedsa
Nv2kkszcvNP+jLCgzUkITocY+IgUUpEO95xbJ0hxzUtFw+jIBNYnA99CczR0DP0Z
8gfFIrQHJLs=
=Xv/P
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
\
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo wnsc_mail.centraltx.net from ronald@centraltx.net server root@mail.centraltx.net ip 208.135.247.48
From: "Ron Abitz" <ronald@centraltx.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 20:22:23 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 26
----------
> From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
> On Sun, 3 May 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
> >
> > > > Oops. Looks like the BBB is wrong. It has desolid, which grants
> > > > infinite defense, for only 40 points.
> > >
> > > Affects Desolid.
> >
> > A crocked mechanic, and unnecessary with being effected by SFX.
> >
> > > 'Nuff said.
> >
> > How? It's still invulnerable do all but very certain
> > circumstances. For triple the points, one can be invulnerable to _one_
> > category. One is still quite vulnerable to the other categories of
> > damage. One could concievably take immunity to all three major types,
> > but I'd leave a note in the rules warning of the danger of this.
(That,
> > and the fact that the cost is 360, would tend to curb abuse.)
>
> Actually, closer to double the price; 40-point Desolid costs END to use,
> so you'd need to take a +1 Advantage (Reduced END Cost: none, Presistent)
> to match that feature. OTOH, Desolid gives you a lot of abilities that
> 100% Damage Reduction wouldn't, such as the ability to walk through walls
> (but that's another thread), and immunity from knockback. 120 points for
> Invulnerability to Physical damage doesn't seem very overpriced to me...
>
And what some people are missing is that the fact that the GM must approve
the power even more so then others. And most GM would what a realy good SFX
explination..And some GM would only allow it with only against a specific
SFX (AKA 100% RDR vs ED (fire only).).
Ron Abitz
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo m7.sprynet.com from chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com server @m7.sprynet.com ip 165.121.1.64
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 18:27:08 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 27
you can't handle my logic!!!
Sheesh guys
happyelf wrote:
> At 07:59 AM 5/2/98 -0700, you wrote:
> >At 02:11 PM 5/2/1998 +1000, happyelf wrote:
> >>>Oh, this is even easier than 'why would you need it in supers?'. I'd use
> >>>it as a part of an 'immune to magic' package. In fact, I'll be using it
> >>>in my Final Fantasy HERO game, because creatures being 100% immune to a
> >>>particular effect are part of the genre.
> >>
> >>Um, the levels of points ar lower, 75% reduction should do it, toss
> >>in a bit of pd or whatever. Frankly it functions as a plot device anyway,
> >>you shouldn't add it to points totals, there's no reason to. Just write
> >>'invuerable to X' in the notes section, i ask you, what is the diffence?
> >>You've asked me that, but it just occured to me that since my theory is
> >>the incumbent, the burden of evidence lies with you.
> >
> > Let's back up to a couple of things that have already been presented:
> >flying into the sun, and interposing oneself in front of the Death Star.
> > Cohesion has 100% resistant Energy Damage Reduction. If he interposes
> >himself in front of the Death Star's 50d6 RKA planet destructor beam, he
> >takes no damage. He takes butt-busting Knockback, but he takes no damage.
> >He can also fly into the sun, with its 100d6 Killing environment (an
> >admittedly arbitrary figure there) and suffer little in the way of ill
> >effects.
>
> As i said, 'the levels of points are lower (hence) 75% should do it'.
> My logic here was that in a heroic level campaign people will not be
> flying into the sun or bodysurfing superlasers, and if they do it
> exists as part of the gm's notes on the setting, not the character sheet.
>
> > Indestructor has 75% resistant Energy Damage Reduction and 20 rPD. What
> >happens when he interposes himself in front of the Death Star's 50d6 RKA?
> >Well, mechanically speaking, he'd take 2 BODY and 112 STUN from an average
> >roll (at least, according to my quick calculations). What happens when he
> >flies into the sun, with its 100d6 Killing environment? I calculate 82.5
> >BODY and 228 STUN from an average roll.
> > Seems pretty different to me.
> >
>
> again, you have most likely accidentally taken the comment out of context.
> The post above was with reguards to a HEROIC level campaign.
>
> >>>> I repeat, a set of powers that give high defence CAN BE defined as
> >>>> indesructable.
> >>>
> >>>Even though it's not.
> >>
> >>Yes it is. if it's special effect is 'indestructable', then it is.
> >
> > So according to you, Indestructor would walk out of the above situations
> >unscathed, even though the mechanics say he shouldn't?
> > Well, that's your decision for your game, and nobody with any sense
> >should try to argue that you're doing it "wrong." Some of us prefer to run
> >such things more strictly by the rules, though.
> >
>
> Again, i am speakinbg from a NON-MECHANICS pov.
> The special effects of blammo's eb could be 'nuclear ray',
> but that doesn't mean that it causees cancer and micro
> particulate fallout when it hits things. I really don't
> understand how you people can't wrap your heads around this.
>
> It's the same sort of logic as giving a character a skill
> and saying they always had it- it's just they never used it.
> If indestructor (who is superheroic, yes?) wants to be indestructable,
> he should have about 700 points. Otherwise, the game does not have the
> power level required to support indestructable characters.
>
> Saying he has that level of power, then he gets
> 75% rdr for everything, plus 100rd for everything,
> plus power defence, ect. Then he can walk through quite a bit.
> from the perspective of a HEROIC campaign, he IS indestructable.
> He can swan dive off a cliff, get hit by a train, ect,
> and within the normal perspective of the campaign
> HE IS INDESTRUCTABLE! As i have said repeatedly any stun he takes
> can be explained by other means- he could be momentarily distracted
> (a valid 'special effect' for taking 5 stun when you have 80-100 to
> begin with) or mired in rubble. I realise this involves a
> moment of lateral thought, but it DOES NOT EFFECT THE
> MECHANICS AT ALL! Simmilar explanations for damage/stun are
> often used for character with energy forms and the like.
>
> the real problem here is that
> by 'indestructable' people are looking for a special effect which
> relates to game mechanics. That's like wolverine saying:
>
> "I'm the best at what i do- and i have the combat skill levels to prove it!"
>
> Ergo, they cannot grasp how one
> can be invunerable and still suffer damage. I have stated before
> what a travesty this 100% idea would be in the game, but people
> seem to like the idea of either:
>
> A) As a gm, playing god with the players by deciding who
> get such a power, which is well in excess of decisions
> like stop signs and magnifying glasses, is a real kick.
> or
> B) As a player, have the power-gamers urge to play an indestructable
> character.
> or
> C) disagreeing with me, in an attempt to claim that i am at fault
> when the truth is they just can't keep up with my logic (this means you, timmy.)
>
> I've already had one person flame me about this, it's clear
> people have strong feelings about the right to play a character
> who is invunerable as a mechanics concept as well as a story
> concept. It should be obvious that if the general issue is
> that a character is invunerable, the roleplaying possibilities
> are the same.
>
> >>That they cannot be quantified, since they are infinite.
> >>You can't quantify infinity.
> >>You just can't.
> >>Go ahead, try.
> >>You'll always end up with zero or infinity.
> >>Simple as that.
> >
> > Hm. Somehow you derived infinity from one, so there must be something
> >different going on here....
>
> Um, when did i do that? I'm assuming you
> actually read what i wrote, unlike mr gilberg earlier?
>
> >---
> >Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
> > http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
> >Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
> > http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
> >
> >
> >
> "enslve humanity willya?"
>
> Core Alpha PBEM http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/3306/Pbem.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 03 May 1998 21:28:59 -0400
Lines: 35
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 29
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Ron Abitz writes:
>> Except that "kinetic energy" is not a special effect. "SFX Reduction:
>> Kinetic Energy" is actually Physical Damage Reduction. "Bullets" is a
>> special effect, so SFX Reduction: Bullets would be valid.
> Which would stop bullets but not a rock, nonexplosive cannon shell, or a
> punch even thou they all do damage the same way? Aka impact damage.
Technically speaking, sling stones are bullets, and a cannon shell might be
considered a big bullet. But otherwise no. 100% SFX Reduction: Bullets
makes you bullet proof. It will do nothing to the damage from an arrow, a
baseball bat (even when thrown), a speeding locomotive, or anything else.
As for Sakura's suppositions, to reiterate the answer: if it is a valid EC,
it is a valid SFX Reduction. If you have a problem with that as the GM,
you were too lenient in locking down the EC's special effects in the first
place. You made your bed; sleep in it.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNU0Z056VRH7BJMxHAQG/TAQAteIkpgJZ9L6gLcQ/q9Y3B5KFEl5QbFHq
pVlvIvFmhnuZAmeXIr9FhEeJIkM/m7hA3i9WElIUj73BVQ7KbqjHyZq0UKr0hczx
8ElNOR+4WhO1WAWAnIQ7BnsNElSr/NQeGI4tQKv9beh8jr4WvGqzbq73Hq4uIZio
TVQ43EMfhaE=
=bDae
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
\ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo m7.sprynet.com from chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com server @m7.sprynet.com ip 165.121.2.64
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 18:32:20 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 28
Sakura wrote:
> On Sun, 3 May 1998, happyelf wrote:
>
> > HE IS INDESTRUCTABLE! As i have said repeatedly any stun he takes
> > can be explained by other means- he could be momentarily distracted
> > (a valid 'special effect' for taking 5 stun when you have 80-100 to
> > begin with) or mired in rubble.
>
> I still love the concept that one can be distracted to unconsciousness.
>
> > Ergo, they cannot grasp how one
> > can be invunerable and still suffer damage. I have stated before
> > what a travesty this 100% idea would be in the game, but people
> > seem to like the idea of either:
> >
> > A) As a gm, playing god with the players by deciding who
> > get such a power, which is well in excess of decisions
> > like stop signs and magnifying glasses, is a real kick.
>
> As opposed to:
>
> As a GM, plaing god with the players by deciding whose
> powers qualify for the 'invulnerable' criteria, and then
> yanking that away from them on a whim because, after all,
> they don't have it in the game mechanics, only by GM
> fiat.
>
> > or
> > B) As a player, have the power-gamers urge to play an indestructable
> > character.
>
> Because anyone who plays a powerful character is a rampant munchkin.
> Uh-huh, right.
>
> I am really sick of that attitude, BTW. Let me climb up on my soapbox for
> a moment and say that playing powerful characters does not reflect at all
> on your roleplaying skills - although there are a lot of munchkins who
> powergame, there are also plenty of /good/ roleplayers who enjoy it too.
>
> I have played and enjoyed characters at both ends of the power spectrum,
> and I get really sick of the 'holier than thou' attitude that some people
> - including you, happyelf - seem to exude whenever powerful characters are
> brought up.
>
> If /you/ can't handle powerful characters, or don't enjoy playing them,
> fine. Play your games your way. But don't call me a 'powergamer' in a
> negative sense because I happen to like them.
>
> > or
> > C) disagreeing with me, in an attempt to claim that i am at fault
> > when the truth is they just can't keep up with my logic (this means you, timmy.)
>
> Well, since your logic may well be based on false premises, is it really
> worth keeping up with it?
>
> Your logic, as I understand it, runs something like this:
>
> Absolutes do not belong in HERO system.
> 100% Damage Reduction is an absolute.
> Therefore, 100% damage reduction does not belong in HERO system.
>
> Of course, following your logic, Life Support doesn't belong in Champions
> either, because it's an absolute...
>
> J
>
> "One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
> Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
> To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
And that since we absolutely disagree we can't possibly be on this lis*...........
Wheee! Personal attacks abound! the internet has been turned into a global electronic
playground where we stick our toungues out and spit at each other....
I love animosity (you know where we're all secretly racoons...)
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 03 May 1998 21:32:21 -0400
Lines: 24
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 31
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Ron Abitz writes:
> And most GM would what a realy good SFX explination..And some GM would
> only allow it with only against a specific SFX (AKA 100% RDR vs ED (fire
> only).).
Funny that... sounds a lot like my SFX Reduction, don't it. :)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNU0apJ6VRH7BJMxHAQGOJwP9EhV4Yhv8EMW+TFKjY0tXvORadiQnwUVx
saVQiISU5w4DjcncRo3h49pyFPADsCwveAltoc18wH5C0C1Lf3GsniHvmsk2INr/
XL0BbSkVTuJuOE5FupESW22V3ZnAy+YOaLJyDBeZH84sCehO5/9zHGAE9NydwRdU
P4ytRYBdJvU=
=52wS
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
\ Earth, presumably from outer space.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo m7.sprynet.com from chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com server @m7.sprynet.com ip 165.121.1.64
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 18:42:31 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 30
Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Tim R Gilberg writes:
>
> > Oops. Looks like the BBB is wrong. It has desolid, which grants
> > infinite defense, for only 40 points.
>
> Affects Desolid.
>
> 'Nuff said.
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use
> Charset: noconv
>
> iQCVAwUBNU0FC56VRH7BJMxHAQG09AP+KILL7/RjD3gp9IiAw0Qx0qyrBu0nwnsK
> Y2U4dX7Mrd+iIKK5a0MT8bFFSY3Fvr4tiRiYsZH8M00mlJnRtOKBsQSAAHkbe6oa
> CbQ4Lir/7Qk28by19GncqpbEhkUv3kSFjW93kIkzsMb0AMbUoofeH7ogArP2rLmW
> 7+RmKV6Q8Rw=
> =jlcE
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> --
> Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
> PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and
> \ kept under refrigeration.
And the desolid must have an attack sfx that affects it. So do the 100%DR that
way or limit it to an SFX (like you say) Its still absolute Fire or Sonic
Reduction or 100% vs PD _except_ Magic based Physical attacks.... I see no
problem with that...
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo wnsc_mail.centraltx.net from ronald@centraltx.net server root@mail.centraltx.net ip 208.135.247.48
From: "Ron Abitz" <ronald@centraltx.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 21:08:25 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 33
----------
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
>>
> Ron Abitz writes:
>
> > And most GM would what a realy good SFX explination..And some GM would
> > only allow it with only against a specific SFX (AKA 100% RDR vs ED
(fire
> > only).).
>
> Funny that... sounds a lot like my SFX Reduction, don't it. :)
>
It would work well as the base to your idea since it can be handled with a
simple limitation that the GM can decide on the modifier based on the
commonarity (is there such a word?) of the attacks that are or are not
effected. And the GM would not have to make up a power to have a PC/NPC to
have a character immune to PD, ED, or MD.
Ron Abitz
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 21:11:29 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 32
> > 120 points for Invulnerability to Physical damage doesn't seem very
> > overpriced to me...
>
> It has no business in a game with more than one PC.
This is an opinion -- and not a very helpful one. You've
basically done no more than say that you don't like it. You haven't given
us any reason why we shouldn't like it.
Like most have said, it deserves very careful consideration by the
GM, and would probably be mixed with weaknesses in other areas. Add in
the fact that a huge number of points are spent on this _one_ thing, and
characters will still be balanced. You seem to be forgetting that, for
what I'd spend on 100% resistant physical damage reduction, I could be
taking +60 STR and +20 DEX for my character. (Other examples of Hero
points expenditure equally valid, of course.)
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 21:14:40 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 34
> > And most GM would what a realy good SFX explination..And some GM would
> > only allow it with only against a specific SFX (AKA 100% RDR vs ED (fire
> > only).).
>
> Funny that... sounds a lot like my SFX Reduction, don't it. :)
But it costs a bit less. This way gives the maximum for
everything in the class at 120 points, with limitations granted dependant
on frequency of SFX. Damage reduction Physical, all edged weapons
(Grendel) would be worth more than Damage Reduction Physical, only vs
Gefeltefish.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo smtp1.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp1.erols.com ip 207.172.3.234
Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 19:26:53 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Desolidification)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 13
David W Toomey wrote:
>
> now. I guess this is one to ask about for Hero 5th:
>
> 1) Do Mental defenses apply to damage from Illusions
> 2) How do normal Defenses apply-i.e. a Brick shot with an Illusion .45-
> Hah!
This situation is fairly explicitly covered in the example on page 77 of
my edition of Hero System Rules. In the example, Mental Marauder creates
an illusionary blaster pistol (+10 for major change, +10 for does STUN).
He hits Jaguar's ECV and rolls 40 for effect, which is greater than
EGO+20 for Jaguar. The following points are clear:
1) Since the attack is an instant effect, there is no chance
for an EGO roll to disbelieve. This confirms the
statement on p. 76 that such rolls begin the phase
after the Mental Illusion is established.
2) There is no need for a physical to-hit roll, since the
illusion includes the fact that Jaguar was hit.
3) The size of the attack is 40 active points: the value rolled
on the dice. This confirms the rule in the paragraph
just before the example.
4) Jaguar's Mental Defense (if any) would not apply.
5) Jaguar's Energy Defense does apply.
This makes sense to me. The rule in the last paragraph of the first
column on p.77 states, "An illusory attack cannot inflict more damage
than it could logically," and the apparent size of the attack is limited:
thus the attack must be reduced by the defenses that the target would
*THINK* should apply.
As a matter of game balance and logic, I would limit NND, AVLD, AP and
Penetrating attacks to SFX that the target would reasonably expect to be
NND, AVLD, AP or Penetrating, based on prior campaign experience. If
Mental Marauder is pretending to be Dr. Geriatric, with a reputation 14-,
the victim may reasonably expect an NND/LS:Age; otherwise, this would be
disallowed or require a higher level of illusion.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo mail.stlnet.com from baron@stlnet.com server root@mail.stlnet.com ip 209.96.6.16
From: "Robert" <baron@stlnet.com>
To: "Champs" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Invulnrability, Immortality, Eternality
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 22:14:45 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 36
-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Sunday, May 03, 1998 10:12 AM
Subject: Invulnrability, Immortality, Eternality
>...since we're on the subject, why don't we discuss the various Sf/x
>and mechanics of Invulnrability, Immortality, and Eternality.
>
> Someone who is ageless is pretty much easy, right? LS: Does not
>Age. How would the mechanic work for a LS:DnA that requied maintainence?
A one fourth limitation at best or a plot device.
>A certain ancient Egyptian Tea that keeps Farah'Sin Al youthful?
Hate to be picky, but Egyptians didn't have tea (well... actually its my
archeology major wife whose being picky, but she says they'd make a bitchin'
beer.....hmmm... immortality beer..... egads...... what a concept..... I'll
take a six-pack and eternity!) As for mechanic, as above.
>what if, that 'upkeep' on the maintence didn't occur? Could you set up
>a 'side effect' of, over a period of time, the character would slowly age?
You could work it as a dependence on said upkeep or Egyptian tea... or
beer... whatever... but to be worth any points, the upkeep would have to be
pretty constant or devastating if missed.
> Characters that this type of construct that I think this might
>apply to would be mummies and various comic book characters, such as R'as
>al Ghul (whose 'immortality' stretches further than mere agelessness).
>
> Another odd type of immortality is that of the disembodied brain
>who is surgically transfered from body to body (the brain, or even the
>head istelf). This has been used in a number of superhero genres, as well
>as horror. For a character to possess such a power, how would you work
>the construct? There would be life sustained with life suport (such as
>the infamous 'Brain That Wouldn't Die', 'Body Parts', and other sci-fi
>horror...) and then those that would survive w/o life support (one of
>Superman's old villians whose name escapes me at the time).
>
How about a character with his phys stats bought back and a large Variable
Point Pool to suggest his different bodies. Something along the line of a
shape-shifters VPP but with restrictions that it needs a new body every time
and can only use the physical stats of the new body.... yuck.... gruesome.
Oh well... it works.
> Then there is Serial Immortality... the spirit or soul 'hopping'
>from body to body, either possessing, usurping, or replacing the soul of
>the unfortunate vessel... Robots that can be rebuilt, mad mystic Latvian
>dictators who have honed their magical and scientific skills to the point
>of beging able to transfer their conciousness to the vat grown clones in
>their respective dungeon labortories, and phoenixes who rise from the
>ashes fully formed are examples of this type of immortality.
>
See the brain in a bottle discussion above. A player of mine had an
interesting concept one time, he bought Body with a -2 limitation (only to
prevent death once below 0 body) and he bought about 20 extra body this way.
He then had an extradimensional travel with a trigger on it that it went off
when he reached below 0 body... he bought a duplicate with the restriction
that the duplicate would also be DEAD when it showed up and could only take
his place if he left when the extra-dimensional sucked him out...which was,
by the way, the trigger for the duplicate. He also had a BUT load of
regeneration, only usable in this extra-dimensional pocket dimension. And
also shape-change with the stipulation that it was uncontrolled and .... you
guessed it, triggered only when he went below 0 body. The end result is a
fellow who kept leaving dead bodies around whenever he was killed and then
would show up later, unhurt and in a different form. He called himself
Pheonix, he also had mental and spirit powers and didn't know where he came
from. He eventually found he was an angel but.... thats another story.
> Then there is a general 'tough' immortality; you take them down,
>but they get up again. Wether the body dies and reanimates or never d ies
>at all... Would this have an effect on game mechanics?
>
Don't know.
> I hope to hear responses... I look forward to them... I can work
>on The Ultimate Immortal in the meantime. :)
> Jason Sullivan
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 03 May 1998 23:18:14 -0400
Lines: 25
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 35
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Tim R Gilberg writes:
> This is an opinion -- and not a very helpful one. You've
> basically done no more than say that you don't like it. You haven't given
> us any reason why we shouldn't like it.
If you had read my previous post on this, you would know that I had
provided a reason why. In fact, I think it is a damn good one.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNU0zcp6VRH7BJMxHAQGSPwP+MavnrqoBeri++OsT/MiG7G/Y3NpRVBWE
g6WereMZkCSTTqBlOSnuC05VUAxg23MO7CvhwbOaQhE2oRXDBbrDOT53exlSZ9pz
IVANG6xhOY0cnbkXtVmGEYAD2Cytr8muwqP5KzXpINjc+PVUDYSu3G3e7ScXp6cY
P9XN0i0S30s=
=tlAp
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
\
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo access1.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access1.digex.net ip 205.197.245.192
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 23:52:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 37
On 3 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> > 120 points for Invulnerability to Physical damage doesn't seem very
> > overpriced to me...
>
> It has no business in a game with more than one PC.
Your point? The validity of a power is *not* dependent upon the style
of game, the number of players or who is the GM. It should be determined
in relation to other powers. There are more (and different) games out
there than yours Rat.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 23:34:06 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 38
> > This is an opinion -- and not a very helpful one. You've
> > basically done no more than say that you don't like it. You haven't given
> > us any reason why we shouldn't like it.
>
> If you had read my previous post on this, you would know that I had
> provided a reason why. In fact, I think it is a damn good one.
I said a good reason.
You make a nonexistant distinction between Energy or Physical
being game mechanics constructs to, say, heat or electricity being SFX.
The later are still mechanics constructs -- constructs of SFX. The former
are much broader SFX. Your reason was quite unpalatable.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo imo23.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo23.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.67
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 07:39:17 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org, fuzion@dour.org
Subject: SA Times Online Updated
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 39
Just a quick note to let you folks know that we've updated the SATO site
(finally!).
You can check out the San Angelo Times Online at
http://members.aol.com/goldrushg, then just click on the San Angelo
cover/link.
By the way, for those of you wondering what the quality of some of the
artwork is going to be in San Angelo: City of Heroes, I've uploaded a color
JPG of one of the interior illos. The picture is somewhere in the SATO site.
;) Keep in mind that the version in the book will be in B&W, but I've
uploaded the color version on the web page because it's so much prettier in
color. ;)
Mark @ GRG
http://members.aol.com/goldrushg
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 05:57:37 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 41
At 08:36 PM 5/3/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>> Maybe there should be different sets of costs based on how common the SFX
>> is? (Maybe based on Uncommon/Common/Very Common, like Vulnerability is?)
>> I would strongly suggest this, since otherwise 'SFX Reduction: Flame' and
>> 'SFX Reduction: Kinetic Energy' would be worth the same, even though the
>> latter is far more likely to appear than the former.
>
>Except that "kinetic energy" is not a special effect. "SFX Reduction:
>Kinetic Energy" is actually Physical Damage Reduction. "Bullets" is a
>special effect, so SFX Reduction: Bullets would be valid.
>
>> This idea intrigues me, though. I'm also curious about the underlying
>> thought processes, especially since you're against 100% DR - isn't 100%
>> SFXR an 'infinite defense', therefore costing infinite points?
>
>No, it is not. Stop thinking of SFX Reduction as a form of Damage
>Reduction, because they are conceptually different powers, even though they
>function similarly. Damage Reduction defends against a game mechanic. SFX
>Reduction defends against a special effect.
I think I see where you're falling down on the concept here; you've
created too much of a wall between the game mechanics and their special
effects, to the point that you don't consider "kinetic energy" to be a
special effect just because it almost exactly matches, as a set, what would
be defended by PD.
Really, Rat, the only solid distinction between PD and ED is that they
defend against attacks of different special effects. PD defends against
most attacks of kinetic energy, while ED defends against most attacks of
chemical energy (for lack of a more precisely accurate term; I know there
is one, which would apply to all forms of energy including heat,
electricity, etc., but I can't remember what it is).
Even besides that, characters (in the form that we know them, as
statistical write-ups) are not damaged by Special Effects. They are
damaged by the game mechanics that we use to represent those Special
Effects, whether the game mechanic in question happens to be Energy Blast,
Ranged Killing Attack, Susceptibility, or something else.
As a general rule, if I have a choice between having a Power that
affects Special Effects and a Power that affects other game mechanics, I'll
take the latter, and create a Limitation to operate only against certain
Special Effects (the proposed change to have Adjustment Powers operate vs
SFX by default is an exception just because it more closely matches what's
actually seen in fiction). This means that, while I certainly don't
dislike your proposed SFX reduction (I have stated that I actively *like*
it), I find extended Damage Reduction (with SFX Limitations as necessary)
easier to work with, at least for a generic "we're trying to cover every
contingency" game system.
Even if I found 100% DR distasteful, though, I'd still say it should be
in Hero5 just because a relatively large cross-section of GMs and players
want to have it available in their campaigns. (And who knows? Maybe Mr.
Lucky will appear in Cascade Champions!)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 06:00:20 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 40
At 09:21 PM 5/3/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>> 120 points for Invulnerability to Physical damage doesn't seem very
>> overpriced to me...
>
>It has no business in a game with more than one PC.
OK, I'll bite. What does the number of PCs have to do with it?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 06:02:51 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 42
At 09:28 PM 5/3/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>Ron Abitz writes:
>
>>> Except that "kinetic energy" is not a special effect. "SFX Reduction:
>>> Kinetic Energy" is actually Physical Damage Reduction. "Bullets" is a
>>> special effect, so SFX Reduction: Bullets would be valid.
>
>> Which would stop bullets but not a rock, nonexplosive cannon shell, or a
>> punch even thou they all do damage the same way? Aka impact damage.
>
>Technically speaking, sling stones are bullets, and a cannon shell might be
>considered a big bullet. But otherwise no. 100% SFX Reduction: Bullets
>makes you bullet proof. It will do nothing to the damage from an arrow, a
>baseball bat (even when thrown), a speeding locomotive, or anything else.
I'm trying to come up with a reasonable SFX (other than magic) that a
character would be absolutely impervious to bullets of any size or form,
but could be killed by an arrow.
>As for Sakura's suppositions, to reiterate the answer: if it is a valid EC,
>it is a valid SFX Reduction. If you have a problem with that as the GM,
>you were too lenient in locking down the EC's special effects in the first
>place. You made your bed; sleep in it.
So is Kinetic Energy valid or not then?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 06:03:17 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 43
At 09:32 PM 5/3/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Ron Abitz writes:
>
>> And most GM would what a realy good SFX explination..And some GM would
>> only allow it with only against a specific SFX (AKA 100% RDR vs ED (fire
>> only).).
>
>Funny that... sounds a lot like my SFX Reduction, don't it. :)
Yeah, don't it?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo exchange-irvine.platsoft.com from dmattingly@platsoft.com server @mail.platsoft.com ip 206.215.12.10
From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
To: "'Bob Greenwade'" <bob.greenwade@klock.com&>
Champions
<champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Desolidification-long!!
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 07:12:07 -0700
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 45
Rat:
>>100% SFX Reduction: Bullets makes you bullet proof.
>>It will do nothing to the damage from an arrow,
BobG:
>I'm trying to come up with a reasonable SFX (other than magic) that a
>character would be absolutely impervious to bullets of any size or
form,
>but could be killed by an arrow.
How about controlling metal? Being made of metal, maybe even absorbing
it? Or, remember the D&D Xorn? They were completely unaffected versus
metal.
Dave Mattingly
http://www.haymaker.org
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo smtp.uky.edu from nexus@uky.campus.mci.net server @smtp.uky.edu ip 128.163.1.168
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 12:34:50 -0400
To: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com&>
"'Bob Greenwade'" <bob.greenwade@klock.com&>
Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: RE: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 07:12 AM 5/4/98 -0700, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>Rat:
>>>100% SFX Reduction: Bullets makes you bullet proof.
>>>It will do nothing to the damage from an arrow,
>
>BobG:
>>I'm trying to come up with a reasonable SFX (other than magic) that a
>>character would be absolutely impervious to bullets of any size or
>form,
>>but could be killed by an arrow.
>
>How about controlling metal? Being made of metal, maybe even absorbing
>it? Or, remember the D&D Xorn? They were completely unaffected versus
>metal.
>
Wouldn't that be 100% Reduction vs Metal? Otherwise bullets wouldn't hurt
you but a metal mace would.
>Dave Mattingly
>http://www.haymaker.org
>
>
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-SMTP: helo dillinger.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@dillinger.io.com ip 199.170.88.11
X-Authentication-Warning: dillinger.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 11:42:58 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Mon, 4 May 1998, Dave Mattingly wrote:
> Rat:
> >>100% SFX Reduction: Bullets makes you bullet proof.
> >>It will do nothing to the damage from an arrow,
>
> BobG:
> >I'm trying to come up with a reasonable SFX (other than magic) that a
> >character would be absolutely impervious to bullets of any size or
> form,
> >but could be killed by an arrow.
>
> How about controlling metal? Being made of metal, maybe even absorbing
> it? Or, remember the D&D Xorn? They were completely unaffected versus
> metal.
That would logically be SFX Reduction: Metal.
In addition, many arrowheads are metal, and some bullets are not.
However, metal-based attacks are still more common than bullet-based
attacks in lots of genres.
I'm not sure why Rat either has a problem with or is ignoring my
suggestion about basing the cost on the commonality of the attack SFX - he
hasn't replied to that portion of my message.
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo exchange-irvine.platsoft.com from dmattingly@platsoft.com server @mail.platsoft.com ip 206.215.12.10
From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Desolidification-long!!
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 11:06:37 -0700
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>>How about controlling metal? Being made of metal, maybe even absorbing
>>it? Or, remember the D&D Xorn? They were completely unaffected versus
>>metal.
>Wouldn't that be 100% Reduction vs Metal? Otherwise bullets wouldn't
hurt
>you but a metal mace would.
Okay, then, high speed metal projectiles. Slow (muscle-powered) attacks
(whether launched by a bow or thrust like a sword) are compensated for
by the metallic metabolism, but faster attacks tear right through before
the body can adapt.
Dave Mattingly
http://www.haymaker.org
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo send1d.yahoomail.com from johndesmarais@yahoo.com server @send1d.yahoomail.com ip 205.180.60.48
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 11:49:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
---Bob Greenwade wrote:
> I'm trying to come up with a reasonable SFX (other than magic)
that a
> character would be absolutely impervious to bullets of any size or
form,
> but could be killed by an arrow.
Magnetics? (assuming all steel jackets).
Some type of odd inverse "kinetic effect". The slower the projectile
is travelling the more likely it is to penetrate?
The golden age Green Lantern, back in his early days (was just reading
the All-Star Archives this weekend, his ring wasn't ineffective
against wood, it was basically only effective vs metals and some other
"processed materials". (he got knocked uncouscious with a glass
bottle, it was all very surreal).
That's all I can come up with at the moment.
==
John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
============================================
Got a question about the list? Just ask. Or, you can go
look over at www.sysabend.org/champions. I've been
slowly posting information about the list there.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo emerald from epawtows@cray-ymp.acm.vt.edu server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65
From: Eric Pawtowski <epawtows@acm.vt.edu>
Subject: Puget Sound Area?
To: hero-l@omg.org
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 15:49:48 -0400 (EDT)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Hello, everyone. Wondering if there are any other Puget Sound area
players on this list. Local game has had a drop-out or two, more may
or may not be coming up, so a slot or two may open. Or a whole new
game might start. Not sure at this point.
Besides, it might be amusing to find out what other people are
doing with this area :-)
Oh, and if anyone knows how to get ahold of Robert Bejold (used to be
on this list) tell him to get in touch with me, I still have one
of his Manga books that he left behind.
Eric
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 13:05:42 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 07:12 AM 5/4/1998 -0700, Dave Mattingly wrote:
>Rat:
>>>100% SFX Reduction: Bullets makes you bullet proof.
>>>It will do nothing to the damage from an arrow,
>
>BobG:
>>I'm trying to come up with a reasonable SFX (other than magic) that a
>>character would be absolutely impervious to bullets of any size or
>form,
>>but could be killed by an arrow.
>
>How about controlling metal? Being made of metal, maybe even absorbing
>it? Or, remember the D&D Xorn? They were completely unaffected versus
>metal.
Most arrows these days have metal tips. (At least, the did the last
time I handled one, in the mid-70s.)
That said, though, I could go along with SFX Reduction vs metal. It's
just that bullets was what I was wondering about.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 04 May 1998 16:25:13 -0400
Lines: 24
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Tim R Gilberg writes:
> You make a nonexistant distinction between Energy or Physical
> [...]
In fact, Tim, you must have glossed over it entirely, because the reason I
gave had nothing to do with game mechanics.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNU4kJp6VRH7BJMxHAQHJsQQAjT9y+MFEKngDksREP13nQmU+/LEZiVcF
ma08/wMUNT4liEuXHkQyMfQx9WLAWJOJ/FuVS+JqOl3A83VVWgzXDqrNWIp6MtWa
tkLeORYXhftH6vQQz/TjN1IUv9bOlSY/Q4ySKJwtPaadsJc0UOSF9bT4kIGFJ3im
7UBC1SzvV7k=
=tjgC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
\ head.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 04 May 1998 16:26:42 -0400
Lines: 27
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Michael Surbrook writes:
>> It has no business in a game with more than one PC.
> Your point?
My point is that in a game with more than one PC, this kind of power will
be a problem unless everyone has something similar. Of course, if everyone
has something similar, it becomes an "everyman power", so the point cost is
irrelevant.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNU4kgZ6VRH7BJMxHAQFn6wP/TUS/Szakbt3bug9h4Bbarf2pK4rimqbJ
MJ0V74z2kaJ7ibM+mhqFlD0oEjYA0NMajlHubzTuTOCEwAHWFsnlsb15KDUGESzg
n0Urra0IMJ9Hmea8rLdPuIP1J9dCX6SmN8eRGM8IOC4snx5QxkfAFdLpgyPGDF45
vdO7VzuGRzc=
=D+eO
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 04 May 1998 16:30:29 -0400
Lines: 32
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Bob Greenwade writes:
> I'm trying to come up with a reasonable SFX (other than magic) that a
> character would be absolutely impervious to bullets of any size or form,
> but could be killed by an arrow.
*shrug* A screen similar to Dune's personal shields that stops supersonic
projectiles (bullets) but not slower projectiles.
[...]
> So is Kinetic Energy valid or not then?
Is "Kinetic Energy" a valid EC? If you say "yes", then it is; if you say
"no", then it is not. I say "no", but I am not the GM.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNU4lYZ6VRH7BJMxHAQE1MgP9GhUIOCfTnst8/X1e7sk3EEVKBzNEZWRX
1GEGPONneaqwBdAAStIW9ync9pBo5jIZNQiGf7b/zQUbq0KgJcOPkCvSKSVndZbY
iz6Py39EYJnbJNcVdiLkMKaNzUZhhdvp3ouTvCI5sxlA5pVo36C/tpel4W23Rrfh
BaOzqQXRUfg=
=12ys
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 04 May 1998 16:36:28 -0400
Lines: 30
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Sakura writes:
> I'm not sure why Rat either has a problem with or is ignoring my
> suggestion about basing the cost on the commonality of the attack SFX -
> he hasn't replied to that portion of my message.
Consistancy. The advantage for many powers that allows affecting many
powers of the same special effect is a constant, either +1/4 for one power
at a time or +2 for all powers simultaneously. Same thing. If you wish to
adjust the cost for a specific instance because a particular special effect
is exceptionally rare or exceptionally common, that is your perogative as
the GM, but as such it falls outside the scope of the basic definition of
the power.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNU4mv56VRH7BJMxHAQGJ8QP+K32isXWcVGP8uz/XEUtf4eKoB+WPYsy1
wd65+4MHv0tkcnFaHmxJ44BBbFOubVikJd4ZxvbYXcYO1VP5JH7NIeuByApbVklV
44MV/05q+eFD7WkmWzWzNQjZin8tj5ZliisFF1GPLN9OBza2CtmqKkDUtFUpsu4y
oa1W9KGvNNs=
=qMfA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo arl-img-3.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @arl-img-3.compuserve.com ip 149.174.217.133
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 16:49:04 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Deathtraps
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Content-Disposition: inline
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id QAA28849
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
What are some of your favorite Deathtraps that you've created or been
victim to? As a GM, are you worried that a Deathtrap could spell death for
a PC, or do you always make sure that they will get out of it? That is, if
your players can't figure out how to escape, do you kill the PCs or do you
get them out of it anyway, using some sort of GM fiat?
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo phil.digitaladvantage.net from badtodd@dacmail.net server @phil.digitaladvantage.net ip 207.40.157.13
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 15:54:25 -0500
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Bob Greenwade writes:
>
> > I'm trying to come up with a reasonable SFX (other than magic) that a
> > character would be absolutely impervious to bullets of any size or form,
> > but could be killed by an arrow.
A magnetics based shield? Metal cannot penetrate, but wood (or any
other material) can?
Todd
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-SMTP: helo dillinger.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@dillinger.io.com ip 199.170.88.11
X-Authentication-Warning: dillinger.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 16:11:29 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On 4 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> Michael Surbrook writes:
>
> >> It has no business in a game with more than one PC.
>
> > Your point?
>
> My point is that in a game with more than one PC, this kind of power will
> be a problem unless everyone has something similar. Of course, if everyone
> has something similar, it becomes an "everyman power", so the point cost is
> irrelevant.
Well, except we've had at least one person (Bob Greenwade, was it you?)
say that they've used it and it wasn't a problem. I haven't heard from
anyone who has actually tried it and said 'this didn't work' - all of the
opposition has thus far been hypothetical.
If anyone /has/ used the 100% DR mechanic and had a problem with it,
please, give input and specifics.
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 16:18:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> > You make a nonexistant distinction between Energy or Physical
> > [...]
>
> In fact, Tim, you must have glossed over it entirely, because the reason I
> gave had nothing to do with game mechanics.
The only thing I saw was an explination that 100% DR was totally
different than 100% SFX reduction because of a thin distinction between
Mechanical SFX and General SFX.
Why? Did you post something else?
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 16:20:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Consistancy. The advantage for many powers that allows affecting many
> powers of the same special effect is a constant, either +1/4 for one power
> at a time or +2 for all powers simultaneously. Same thing. If you wish to
> adjust the cost for a specific instance because a particular special effect
> is exceptionally rare or exceptionally common, that is your perogative as
> the GM, but as such it falls outside the scope of the basic definition of
> the power.
But at the same time the HSR allows for difference in cost based
on commoness of SFX -- see Vulnerability.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 04 May 1998 17:41:44 -0400
Lines: 23
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Tim R Gilberg writes:
> But at the same time the HSR allows for difference in cost based
> on commoness of SFX -- see Vulnerability.
Vulnerability is a disadavatage, not a power or a power modifier.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNU42FZ6VRH7BJMxHAQEqQwP/eJsGR+QtH+xQpoGr4TAWKp02f/lzspl0
TlFgcsq8aLGgQc0qZ3piFy3cr9p1cNvqdYnU1yJO/ztfbZRIhfl4gwCpd+Macb77
cuBjSqYAlLNs99fLfNQwaKI4e8sq/YjF365Bi2/SrfuwXCax03TK/LmV8gZs8J0H
dvdeyM5bGS0=
=xQG8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
\
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 15:19:51 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Deathtraps
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:22 PM 5/4/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Deathtraps
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>
>What are some of your favorite Deathtraps that you've created or been
>victim to? As a GM, are you worried that a Deathtrap could spell death for
>a PC, or do you always make sure that they will get out of it? That is, if
>your players can't figure out how to escape, do you kill the PCs or do you
>get them out of it anyway, using some sort of GM fiat?
I usually let any reasonable means of escape work (or, at the very
least, have a chance of working), and I also like to plan out a "default"
escape that will get the hero out even if he can't come up with anything.
An excellent example of the latter can be found in a TV commercial local
to the Portland area, made by one of the "kings" of local advertising,
Scott Thomason, who owns what is probably the largest single auto
dealership in the Northwest. The spot is a James Bond sendup, with Scott
in a tuxedo (looking rather spiffy in it despite his Coke-bottle glasses).
He's strapped to a table a la the deathtrap scene from Goldfinger, except
that his arms are strapped to the table and his legs are strapped to the
fender of a dark blue 4x4.
The Mad Scientist demands, "I'll ask you one more time, Mr. Thomason.
Tell me the secret of your low prices!"
Scott: "I told you already! It's volume!"
Mad Scientist: "You had your chance! Bruno, fire up the truck!"
Then Bruno revs up the truck, puts it in gear, and hits the gas.
Suddenly sparks fly, everything turns dark, and when the lights return
Scott is standing there unharmed, the truck is a pile of wreckage, and the
Mad Scientist is laying over it in tears.
Mad Scientist: "Lousy used truck!"
Scott (straightening his cuffs): "He obviously didn't buy it from me!"
The sparkling humor aside (and it's much better when seen in its final
form than it is in my recounting above), this exemplifies one good way to
get the hero out of a jam that he can't get himself out: a malfunction,
preferably one that has something to do with the hero's own previous actions.
Did the heroes foil a burglary at an electronics warehouse during
foreshadowing, or early in the adventure? Then have something electronic
break down at a crucial moment. Even worse, if the burglary *wasn't*
foiled and the electronics break down, then the hero (and the player) will
feel vindicated for that failure, since the stuff was faulty and if he'd
succeeded then the villain might've gotten something better in the
meantime. (For that matter, the faulty electronics could be shoddy
workmanship in violation of a government contract, which would have certain
repercussions all on its own, and all because the hero failed to foil the
robbery!)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 15:31:05 -0700
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: 100% Damage Reduction
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 04:11 PM 5/4/1998 -0500, Sakura wrote:
>On 4 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>> Michael Surbrook writes:
>>
>> >> It has no business in a game with more than one PC.
>>
>> > Your point?
>>
>> My point is that in a game with more than one PC, this kind of power will
>> be a problem unless everyone has something similar. Of course, if everyone
>> has something similar, it becomes an "everyman power", so the point cost is
>> irrelevant.
>
>Well, except we've had at least one person (Bob Greenwade, was it you?)
>say that they've used it and it wasn't a problem. I haven't heard from
>anyone who has actually tried it and said 'this didn't work' - all of the
>opposition has thus far been hypothetical.
Yes, that was me. In fact, that turned out to be one of the most fun
characters of that campaign. Just for Mr. Lucky, it probably would have
been worth it to turn that short-term tryout campaign into an ongoing one,
and had I stuck with that group for much longer (I had to move) I might've
specifically requested him in a later campaign.
His schtick, of course, was that he couldn't take any damage (except
from gaseous NNDs and certain other effects), so the player and I agreed
that little if any of his experience should go toward improving his combat
effectiveness per se; instead, he became good at playing decoy, drawing
enemy fire. As an example, if a brick was hammering away at one of his
teammates, he snuck up behind said brick and covered his eyes, giving the
opponent time to ready a really big attack (like a Haymaker).
It was generally decided that Mr. Lucky would also have been the perfect
person to send into the core of a nuclear reactor to fix the misaligned
rods, or into the heart of an inferno to locate and rescue civilians and
valuable goods, or into any of a large variety of extremely hazardous
conditions that an average super would never have been able to survive in.
Never mind that he had STR 8, DEX 14, SPD 3, and Skills that tended toward
the arts. The guy was fun to play with, and to GM for.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo wnsc_mail.centraltx.net from ronald@centraltx.net server root@mail.centraltx.net ip 208.135.247.48
From: "Ron Abitz" <ronald@centraltx.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Puget Sound Area?
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 17:53:43 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
----------
> From: Eric Pawtowski <epawtows@acm.vt.edu>
>
> Hello, everyone. Wondering if there are any other Puget Sound area
> players on this list. Local game has had a drop-out or two, more may
> or may not be coming up, so a slot or two may open. Or a whole new
> game might start. Not sure at this point.
>
> Besides, it might be amusing to find out what other people are
> doing with this area :-)
>
> Oh, and if anyone knows how to get ahold of Robert Bejold (used to be
> on this list) tell him to get in touch with me, I still have one
> of his Manga books that he left behind.
>
> Eric
I am at Ft. Hood right now but I going to be moving into that area in about
six months.
Ron Abitz
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-SMTP: helo pentagon.io.com from traveler@io.com server traveler@pentagon.io.com ip 199.170.88.5
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: traveler owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 17:58:56 -0500 (CDT)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On 4 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Michael Surbrook writes:
>
> >> It has no business in a game with more than one PC.
>
> > Your point?
>
> My point is that in a game with more than one PC, this kind of power
> will be a problem unless everyone has something similar. Of course, if
> everyone has something similar, it becomes an "everyman power", so the
> point cost is irrelevant.
Actually, everyone _would_ have something comparable - though not
neccessarily similar; everyone would have 120 points-worth of abilities
that Mr. Invulnerable would _not_ have...
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo id.sedl.org from tsang@id.sedl.org server tsang@id.sedl.org ip 198.213.9.2
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 18:12:32 -0500
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>> But at the same time the HSR allows for difference in cost based
>> on commoness of SFX -- see Vulnerability.
>
>Vulnerability is a disadavatage, not a power or a power modifier.
But Damage Reduction resembles Vulnerability more than it resembles any
of the Powers in the BBB.
-----
My house rules for Damage Reduction are:
5/10/15 point base for Uncommon/Common/VCommon SFX
x1/2/4/8/16 multiplier for 25/50/75/90/100% reduction
SFX can include Physical Attacks (including Killing), which is VCommon,
and Physical Attacks (non-killing), which is Common. Mental attacks
are Common in the typical 4-color universe, etc.
Preserves compatibility with old characters, adds an additional level
between 75% and 100% to scale better in higher-powered games (400-750
pts), and makes Immunity to Fire (Uncommon) affordable (80 pts) while
making Immunity to Physical Attacks really expensive (240 pts).
----
In a similar vein, my house rules for Find Weakness:
10/20/30 point base for (single / group of similar / all) attacks
5/ 8/10 points per +1 to roll (*cannot* use Overall Levels or CSLs on FW)
Donald
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-SMTP: helo pentagon.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@pentagon.io.com ip 199.170.88.5
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 18:26:02 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On 4 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> Tim R Gilberg writes:
>
> > But at the same time the HSR allows for difference in cost based
> > on commoness of SFX -- see Vulnerability.
>
> Vulnerability is a disadavatage, not a power or a power modifier.
On the other hand, the +1/4 and +2 modifiers you mentioned are
specifically for Adjustment Powers, which I greatly doubt SFXR is, since
it doesn't adjust any Powers or Characteristics.
More logical to my mind would be some sort of 'limited power', since
that's what is used for every other defensive power. But limited power
requires a solid baseline, and SFX do not provide a solid baseline.
To get a solid baseline, one would have to return to the broadest
categories - perhaps, 'physical-based special effects', 'energy-based
special effects', etc - but then you're basically looking at Damage
Reduction.
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 18:50:02 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> > But at the same time the HSR allows for difference in cost based
> > on commoness of SFX -- see Vulnerability.
>
> Vulnerability is a disadavatage, not a power or a power modifier.
It's a game mechanic, establishing precedence for commoness of
SFX. Enough to base "only vs X" limitations, anyway. Also, see Missile
Deflection. Different cost based on SFX deflectible.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 19:49:02 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> > Your point?
>
> My point is that in a game with more than one PC, this kind of power will
> be a problem unless everyone has something similar. Of course, if everyone
Huh? Why is this power so much more unbalancing than any other.
With your logic, if someone has a 12D6 EB, everyone should have a 12D6 EB.
> has something similar, it becomes an "everyman power", so the point cost is
> irrelevant.
True, unless there are exceptions to the "everyman".
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo jcs1.jcstate.edu from ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu server @jcs1.jcstate.edu ip 204.117.72.52
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 20:34:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: NY/NJ & 100% DR
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Any gamers in the New York/New Jersey area?
Also, I thought of another genre where 100% DR comes into play:
_TOON HERO_
All characters have RDR 100% (not vs. Stun)!
Mallets away, my boys!
-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+-
"Fools are my theme, let satire be my song."
-Lord Byron; English Bards and Scotch Reviewers. Line 6.
-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo access5.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access5.digex.net ip 205.197.245.196
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 21:41:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On 4 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> >> It has no business in a game with more than one PC.
>
> > Your point?
>
> My point is that in a game with more than one PC, this kind of power will
> be a problem unless everyone has something similar. Of course, if everyone
> has something similar, it becomes an "everyman power", so the point cost is
> irrelevant.
Excuse me? That makes no sense. That's like saying the person with the
60 STR will be a problem unless everyone else has a 60 STR. If some one
spends 120 points to be 100% DR vs physical attacks, he has dropped almost
half of the normal starting point allowance for a superhero into *one*
power. He still can be affected by NNDs, energy, mental attacks and so
on. But now, he has only 130 points to spend on stats and skills and
*other* powers. Yes, he is immune to punches, bullets and force bolts,
but he is not going to outshine the brick, energy projector or mentalist.
In fact, a cahracter like that we *need* to be a team player in order to
*not* get abused by the enemy.
Note, that if you buy 100% DR ns Energy *AND* physical, you have a
whopping 10 points left over to round out your character, effectivly
making you useless (except as possibly a door stop).
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 04 May 1998 22:03:59 -0400
Lines: 27
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Dataweaver writes:
> Actually, everyone _would_ have something comparable - though not
> neccessarily similar; everyone would have 120 points-worth of abilities
> that Mr. Invulnerable would _not_ have...
120 points, while significant for a 250-point character, still leaves quite
a bit for buying other things. When you have a character that cannot be
hurt and can do (almost) as much damage as the other PCs, you have a
recipie for resentful players.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNU5zi56VRH7BJMxHAQGwrQQAwDJgJbUR8Fan+Wp+V/Ifq2aa/t16HOxW
fbwdq/mcPX/A1NB30eeNTmBPgHh0qTB9dP9bwTDMmKuPBHELp32jLNr5Lu9GE+MG
v91GTQR0M2P4Kt98ickyTeuYiDZf+dXuYIQTMzcSPSPgZcR7n9QJxePC+yTWCxH1
z0X7q9nHOoE=
=vVUd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
\ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 04 May 1998 22:07:09 -0400
Lines: 35
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Donald Tsang writes:
>> Vulnerability is a disadavatage, not a power or a power modifier.
> But Damage Reduction resembles Vulnerability more than it resembles any
> of the Powers in the BBB.
Umm... only in the very loosest sense of resemblance. But Reduction is
still a power and should be treated as such.
> -----
> My house rules for Damage Reduction are:
> 5/10/15 point base for Uncommon/Common/VCommon SFX
> x1/2/4/8/16 multiplier for 25/50/75/90/100% reduction
That looks workable. I dislike the hiccup that the 90% level throws into
things, though.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNU50TJ6VRH7BJMxHAQFWHgP+OXHJTt2RpE72ecFl9NTpjfehJ3oMLd7a
lkW+JpDRrceWoT0xpH79AMVcORWheu8pqsk4Y8wDpxxCHwvdFmqiqh3obehRdTuA
JPjxAadF+rgK9F/2PhkTZrZ/WicSyF1fEf6VKFhobLX4k3OLv01NXtPQu4nCQ3z/
6A7f8O4X5hw=
=F4bb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 04 May 1998 22:18:49 -0400
Lines: 33
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Michael Surbrook writes:
> Excuse me? That makes no sense. That's like saying the person with the
> 60 STR will be a problem unless everyone else has a 60 STR.
No, it is like "immortality" in a campaign inspired by "Highlander". If
all PCs and all "significant" NPCs must have the power to exactly the same
degree, it becomes an everyman power. "Everyone" has the abilty (involved
NPCs will have an appropriate disadvantage to the effect of "does not have
this ability"); that maintains balance.
When an unbalancing power such as "total invulnerability" is brought into
play without a means of bringing it back into balance, you will have
problems. That means of balance will vary widely from group to group and
from campaign to campaign. That variance makes it impractical to include
in what is supposed to be a generic set of mechanics.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0 for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNU53CJ6VRH7BJMxHAQEtewP7Bh1BcjQlwEZDG5wFHdHlVIeXnlqj13rZ
VDecMHSF5ZPEfnCu99PKzAFz18lqQgiYb+e2zkYaPIoSe4gX4xrp2lGAJpTCPk5m
x4KXw3/llwRrNcmG5+kFsbPZ07V4rYS0NOneAgxg4oGaYPIpFt2eYOo7IhT6q5Cu
hm+S01K/OzQ=
=epln
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Warning: pregnant women, the elderly, and
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ children under 10 should avoid prolonged
\ exposure to Happy Fun Ball.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-SMTP: helo mail.msen.com from mjo@dojo.mi.org server mjo@conch.msen.com ip 148.59.19.5
X-Authentication-Warning: conch.msen.com: mjo set sender to mjo@dojo.mi.org using -f
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
To: champ-l@sysabend.org (Champions Mailing List)
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 22:30:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Mike O'Connor" <mjo@dojo.mi.org>
Reply-To: "Mike O'Connor" <mjo@dojo.mi.org>
X-Organization: :noitazinagrO-X
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I've been playing fast and loose with my d(elete) key, wishing this
list were in digest format. Forgive me if I repeat what's said before.
:Excuse me? That makes no sense. That's like saying the person with the
:60 STR will be a problem unless everyone else has a 60 STR. If some one
:spends 120 points to be 100% DR vs physical attacks, he has dropped almost
:half of the normal starting point allowance for a superhero into *one*
:power. He still can be affected by NNDs, energy, mental attacks and so
Depending on the special effects, I'd think that total physical (or
energy) invulnerability would be a valid defense against some NNDs.
:on. But now, he has only 130 points to spend on stats and skills and
:*other* powers. Yes, he is immune to punches, bullets and force bolts,
:but he is not going to outshine the brick, energy projector or mentalist.
:In fact, a cahracter like that we *need* to be a team player in order to
:*not* get abused by the enemy.
Or simply ignored.
:Note, that if you buy 100% DR ns Energy *AND* physical, you have a
:whopping 10 points left over to round out your character, effectivly
:making you useless (except as possibly a door stop).
I prefer the term "mental puppet". :)
--
Michael J. O'Connor | WWW: http://dojo.mi.org/~mjo/ | Email: mjo@dojo.mi.org
InterNIC WHOIS: MJO | (has my PGP & Geek Code info) | Phone: +1 248-848-4481
=--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--=
"You can't fight in here! This is the War Room!" -from Dr. Strangelove
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo sac-b.mp.campus.mci.net from nexus@uky.campus.mci.net server @sac-b.mp.campus.mci.net ip 204.71.76.241
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 19:34:54 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 10:03 PM 5/4/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Dataweaver writes:
>
>> Actually, everyone _would_ have something comparable - though not
>> neccessarily similar; everyone would have 120 points-worth of abilities
>> that Mr. Invulnerable would _not_ have...
>
>120 points, while significant for a 250-point character, still leaves quite
>a bit for buying other things. When you have a character that cannot be
>hurt and can do (almost) as much damage as the other PCs, you have a
>recipie for resentful players.
The character can be hurt. 120 points buys -One- catagory of 100%
reducation. SO they can be hurt by at least two other types of damage and
adjustment powers.
I know violence doesn't solve all problems...
But it sure feels good!
Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 21:44:06 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> 120 points, while significant for a 250-point character, still leaves quite
> a bit for buying other things. When you have a character that cannot be
> hurt and can do (almost) as much damage as the other PCs, you have a
> recipie for resentful players.
Um. Cannot be hurt by _one_ category of attacks. Just because
nothing physical affects you doesn't mean that you won't take damage from
energy or mental. (Or any "unusual" attacks.)
Now, for physical and energy, you're talking 240 points. Now you
have 10 points to spend on other stuff.
This is an extreme point expenditure for some very narrow
concepts. More common will be the 100% with a -1 lim, only vs X. Now
you've spent 60 points, a large amount, for only one SFX of defense.
There is really no way this isn't balanced. In all cases, of
course, if the GM doesn't want it, he doesn't have to allow it. But
that's standard for any power.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-SMTP: helo pentagon.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@pentagon.io.com ip 199.170.88.5
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 21:45:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On 4 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> > Actually, everyone _would_ have something comparable - though not
> > neccessarily similar; everyone would have 120 points-worth of abilities
> > that Mr. Invulnerable would _not_ have...
>
> 120 points, while significant for a 250-point character, still leaves quite
> a bit for buying other things. When you have a character that cannot be
> hurt and can do (almost) as much damage as the other PCs, you have a
> recipie for resentful players.
Er, make that 'cannot be hurt by one type of attack' - 120 points would
only net you 100% DR in physical /or/ in energy (although it'd get you 75%
in both, which is a pretty scary concept, especially if your ref let you
buy some Armor as well).
Actually, I'd be even /more/ scared of Mr. 75%/75%, because his defenses
are more spread out, whereas Mr. 100%/0%'s defenses are concentrated on
one area, and he can probably be taken out fairly easily by attacks of the
type he's not vulnerable to.
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 21:46:11 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> When an unbalancing power such as "total invulnerability" is brought into
> play without a means of bringing it back into balance, you will have
> problems. That means of balance will vary widely from group to group and
> from campaign to campaign. That variance makes it impractical to include
> in what is supposed to be a generic set of mechanics.
The means of balance for any campaign will vary for any power,
Rat.
You've still given us no reason, other than your say-so, as to why
this power will cause all sorts of balance problems for any possible
campaign.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-SMTP: helo dillinger.io.com from traveler@io.com server traveler@dillinger.io.com ip 199.170.88.11
X-Authentication-Warning: dillinger.io.com: traveler owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 22:06:10 -0500 (CDT)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On 4 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Dataweaver writes:
>
> > Actually, everyone _would_ have something comparable - though not
> > neccessarily similar; everyone would have 120 points-worth of abilities
> > that Mr. Invulnerable would _not_ have...
>
> 120 points, while significant for a 250-point character, still leaves quite
> a bit for buying other things. When you have a character that cannot be
> hurt and can do (almost) as much damage as the other PCs, you have a
> recipie for resentful players.
Only if the only things in the game that are important are taking damage
and dishing it out. Note that the other players could sink 60 points into
defense to have respectable survivability, and would _still_ have 60
points left over for such things as "can fly; has N-Ray Vision; high SPD;
etc." Give me a 250-point character with 120 points spent on 100% Damage
Reduction (your choice of physical, mental, or energy), and I'll send you
a well-rounded counterproposal (i.e., _not_ a combat monster) without
Damage Reduction who is a match for Mr. Invulnerable.
Yes, this is a challenge. Are you up to it?
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-SMTP: helo dillinger.io.com from traveler@io.com server traveler@dillinger.io.com ip 199.170.88.11
X-Authentication-Warning: dillinger.io.com: traveler owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 22:19:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
To: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
cc: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net&>
Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Mon, 4 May 1998, Sakura wrote:
> On 4 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> > > Actually, everyone _would_ have something comparable - though not
> > > neccessarily similar; everyone would have 120 points-worth of abilities
> > > that Mr. Invulnerable would _not_ have...
> >
> > 120 points, while significant for a 250-point character, still leaves quite
> > a bit for buying other things. When you have a character that cannot be
> > hurt and can do (almost) as much damage as the other PCs, you have a
> > recipie for resentful players.
>
> Er, make that 'cannot be hurt by one type of attack' - 120 points would
> only net you 100% DR in physical /or/ in energy (although it'd get you 75%
> in both, which is a pretty scary concept, especially if your ref let you
> buy some Armor as well).
>
> Actually, I'd be even /more/ scared of Mr. 75%/75%, because his defenses
> are more spread out, whereas Mr. 100%/0%'s defenses are concentrated on
> one area, and he can probably be taken out fairly easily by attacks of the
> type he's not vulnerable to.
That brings up a good point; 120 points for total invulnerability to one
of physical, energy, or mental attacks might well be too _high_ of a point
cost. It certainly is _not_ too low... (IMHO, 90 points would seem to be
a bit more reasonable of a price for what the ability gives you.)
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo access1.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access1.digex.net ip 205.197.245.192
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 23:25:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 1
On 4 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> > Excuse me? That makes no sense. That's like saying the person with the
> > 60 STR will be a problem unless everyone else has a 60 STR.
>
> No, it is like "immortality" in a campaign inspired by "Highlander". If
> all PCs and all "significant" NPCs must have the power to exactly the same
> degree, it becomes an everyman power. "Everyone" has the abilty (involved
> NPCs will have an appropriate disadvantage to the effect of "does not have
> this ability"); that maintains balance.
In one type of game yes. And in a Highlander game, I would declare the
'immortality' schtick to be SFX. I would probably *still* charge
*something* for it (say 30 points) to balance the unkillable characters
against everyone else.
Now, I will state right now that the 3x3 Eyes for Hero project I'm working
on will have as one of its 'house rules' the fact that a Wu (a souless
being) *cannot* be killed by any means. But, I'm still designing close to
375 points of powers to help support this concept (this includes high
levels of Regen, BODY Aids, Life Support and extra BODY), I'm *not* just
going to say 'cannot be killed' and expect people to accept that at face
value, I am going ot back up my decision with game mechanics.
> When an unbalancing power such as "total invulnerability" is brought into
> play without a means of bringing it back into balance, you will have
> problems. That means of balance will vary widely from group to group and
> from campaign to campaign. That variance makes it impractical to include
> in what is supposed to be a generic set of mechanics.
Hero System is an openended game engine that allows one to build anything.
That in itself leaves one open to all sorts of abuses. There are ways to
balance "total invulnerability" as a power. One is to break it down into
three effects (energy, physical and mental) and than charge an arm and a
leg for each one. This is what is being suggested here. At 120 points a
pop, very few people (if ever) are going to be buying such a power without
some serious considerations.
There is also the fact that Hero tries to stress cetain power levels, and
250 points will run out *real* quick if one dumps almost half of that inot
one limted (and yes it is limited) power.
Hmm.. I'm repeating myself, I made this argument in my *last* response to
Rat.
There is also the STOP sign and a well-written explination for what the
power should be used for in the text for the power (if this was in a rule
book).
I find it interesting that GURPS seems willing to go out on a limb and
present such powers as 'Immortal' to allow people to design certain
concepts. If Hero is supposed to be an equally good (heck, it's better!)
generic engine, than allowances should be made for such concepts and
powers.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo mars.superlink.net from why@superlink.net server root@mars.superlink.net ip 204.97.220.9
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net
Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 23:55:04 -0400
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Desolidification
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 2
At 11:23 PM 4/29/98 +0100, Mr Michael Pegg wrote:
>I've an idea to create a charcter with Desolid to Mental only. This
>would make the character immune to mental attacks, a sort of very
>powerful mental defense. I know Desolid is not ment to be used in that
>way, but why not. The only problem is according to the rules the
>character should not then be able to make any attacks unless the power
>is bought with Effect Solid, I can understand having to buy it for
>possibly any mental powers the character might have but whats your
>opinion on the physical powers.
Anyone remember this post? Way back around April 29? What was that? Last
week? What's happened since then? Over 200 posts about something Mr. Pegg
"[knew was] not ment (sic) to be used in that way, but why not." Why not,
indeed. People are calling each other names over this. Writing doctural
theses (or the equivalent). I'm still waiting for someone to post
scientific study of 30 campaigns with and 30 control campaigns without 100%
DR. Maybe, it will get published in an RPG journal for peer review.
When the thread started, I thought it would die down quickly so I could
just ignore it. Well, I would have continued ignoring it except that no
one has posted one of the other popular extensions to DR, so I thought I
would:
Since most parts of Hero are exponential, why not DR: Just extend the chart
exponentially:
25% = 10 or 15
50% = 20 or 30
75% = 40 or 60
87.5% = 80 or 120
93.75% = 120 or 180
96.875% = 160 or 240
98.4375% = 200 or 300
etc.
for those who like formulas: 1-.25^n non-res DR costs 40 * n points.
(Okay, so 25% and 50% are fudged, but it's close enough.)
At the 200/300 point level, 100 points of stun/body would not get through 2
points of PD/ED.
If you think that costs too much, for nigh invulnerability, use 1-.5^n
costs 20*n points.
87.5% = 100 or 150
93.75 = 120 or 180
etc.
I don't care. I have used 75% versus a single effect (-1) once. I guess
the people I've played with never wanted to be invulnerable.
Well, anyway, back to your fun.
Oh, and Mike: Use 75% DR Mental and a enough Mental Defense appropriate to
your campaign and don't start anymore trouble :-)
Joe
(I suppose he'll ask a Linked question next.)
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo wnsc_mail.centraltx.net from ronald@centraltx.net server root@mail.centraltx.net ip 208.135.247.48
From: "Ron Abitz" <ronald@centraltx.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 22:56:12 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 4
----------
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
> To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
> Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
> Date: Monday, May 04, 1998 9:07 PM
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Donald Tsang writes:
>
> >> Vulnerability is a disadavatage, not a power or a power modifier.
>
> > But Damage Reduction resembles Vulnerability more than it resembles any
> > of the Powers in the BBB.
>
> Umm... only in the very loosest sense of resemblance. But Reduction is
> still a power and should be treated as such.
>
> > -----
> > My house rules for Damage Reduction are:
>
> > 5/10/15 point base for Uncommon/Common/VCommon SFX
> > x1/2/4/8/16 multiplier for 25/50/75/90/100% reduction
>
> That looks workable. I dislike the hiccup that the 90% level throws into
> things, though.
Read the examples under DR in the book they based the modifer based on how
common the attack sfx. Or are you saying that the examples in the book are
wrong?
Ron Abitz
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-SMTP: helo dillinger.io.com from traveler@io.com server traveler@dillinger.io.com ip 199.170.88.11
X-Authentication-Warning: dillinger.io.com: traveler owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 23:06:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 3
On Mon, 4 May 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> On 4 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
> > > Excuse me? That makes no sense. That's like saying the person with
> > > the 60 STR will be a problem unless everyone else has a 60 STR.
> >
> > No, it is like "immortality" in a campaign inspired by "Highlander".
> > If all PCs and all "significant" NPCs must have the power to exactly
> > the same degree, it becomes an everyman power. "Everyone" has the
> > abilty (involved NPCs will have an appropriate disadvantage to the
> > effect of "does not have this ability"); that maintains balance.
>
> In one type of game yes. And in a Highlander game, I would declare the
> 'immortality' schtick to be SFX. I would probably *still* charge
> *something* for it (say 30 points) to balance the unkillable characters
> against everyone else.
OTOH, the discussion was _not_ primarily about campaigns where everyone
has invulnerability; it was about the viability of campaigns that mix
invulnerable characters with other characters. And considering the
proposed cost of Invulnerability/100% Damage Reduction/100% SFX Reduction/
what-have-you, my biggest concern is that the invulnerable character would
find himself feeling rather useless most of the time.
> Now, I will state right now that the 3x3 Eyes for Hero project I'm
> working on will have as one of its 'house rules' the fact that a Wu (a
> souless being) *cannot* be killed by any means. But, I'm still
> designing close to 375 points of powers to help support this concept
> (this includes high levels of Regen, BODY Aids, Life Support and extra
> BODY), I'm *not* just going to say 'cannot be killed' and expect people
> to accept that at face value, I am going ot back up my decision with
> game mechanics.
I don't know; 60 points for "cannot die" seems quite reasonable to me,
provided that a reasonable in-game explanation is given and a stop sign is
included to warn away the most extreme versions of abuse.
> > When an unbalancing power such as "total invulnerability" is brought
> > into play without a means of bringing it back into balance, you will
> > have problems. That means of balance will vary widely from group to
> > group and from campaign to campaign. That variance makes it
> > impractical to include in what is supposed to be a generic set of
> > mechanics.
I agree that when an unbalancing power is brought into play without a
means of bringing it back into balance, you will have problems. I
disagree that a 120-point invulnerability to physical attacks is such a
power.
> Hero System is an openended game engine that allows one to build
> anything. That in itself leaves one open to all sorts of abuses. There
> are ways to balance "total invulnerability" as a power. One is to break
> it down into three effects (energy, physical and mental) and than charge
> an arm and a leg for each one. This is what is being suggested here.
> At 120 points a pop, very few people (if ever) are going to be buying
> such a power without some serious considerations.
Perhaps too few; as I mention elsewhere, 120 points a pop may well be too
high.
> There is also the STOP sign and a well-written explination for what the
> power should be used for in the text for the power (if this was in a
> rule book).
And it hopefully will be in H5.
> I find it interesting that GURPS seems willing to go out on a limb and
> present such powers as 'Immortal' to allow people to design certain
> concepts. If Hero is supposed to be an equally good (heck, it's
> better!) generic engine, than allowances should be made for such
> concepts and powers.
Well... I wouldn't neccessarily say 'better'; in fact, Hero has some flaws
that GURPS doesn't, and vice versa. But I agree with the sentiment.
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-SMTP: helo dillinger.io.com from traveler@io.com server traveler@dillinger.io.com ip 199.170.88.11
X-Authentication-Warning: dillinger.io.com: traveler owned process doing -bs
Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 23:42:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
To: Ron Abitz <ronald@centraltx.net>
cc: Hero List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 5
On Mon, 4 May 1998, Ron Abitz wrote in response to Rat (?):
> > Donald Tsang writes:
> > > My house rules for Damage Reduction are:
> >
> > > 5/10/15 point base for Uncommon/Common/VCommon SFX
> > > x1/2/4/8/16 multiplier for 25/50/75/90/100% reduction
> >
> > That looks workable. I dislike the hiccup that the 90% level throws
> > into things, though.
>
> Read the examples under DR in the book they based the modifer based on
> how common the attack sfx. Or are you saying that the examples in the
> book are wrong?
Unless I misread, he was commenting on the x1/2/4/8/16 multiplier for
25/50/75/90/100% reduction, not the 5/10/15 point base for
Uncommon/Common/VCommon SFX. Personally, I'd go with x1/x2/x4/x6
multipliers for 25/50/75/100% reduction, respectively, with a 10/15 point
base for Normal/Resistant defense, and Conditional Power Limitations for
unusually narrow SFX.
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo emerald from psansone@i1.net server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 00:35:05 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: psansone@i1.net
To: champ-l@omg.org
From: psansone@i1.net (Sparx)
Subject: Re: I need a good name...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 6
>I need a good for a superhero. The basic power concept is that he can
manipulate the
>"space between the molecules of his body" giving him control over his size,
mass, and
>density. (Yeah, I know - cheezey. But I had fun writing his origin, and
he's got an
>entertaining array of almost effective powers).
>
>A player in my game had a PC with those powers, his name was "Quick
>Change", but was forever known as "ShrinkingGrowing Man"
I had a guy similar to this, his name was Tallman / Smallman, depending on
what power he was using at the time. He had no problem using either name
though it did confuse other players. "What do we call you when you are
normal size? Man?"
Sparx
=====================================================
I intend to live forever - so far, so good
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Check out #herochat on DALnet an IRC for Champions Conversation
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo shirley.theramp.net from voxel@theramp.net server @shirley.theramp.net ip 205.212.88.4
X-Sender: voxel@mail.theramp.net
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 04:13:43 -0500
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: Re: Session length
Cc: "Champions News Group" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:14 PM 5/5/98 -0400, David Stallard wrote:
>I just wanted to get a general demographic to see how my group
>compares...I've become a little concerned that we get hung up on battles
>and don't accomplish much story. However, seeing that the big complaint
>from the Fuzion group is that 4E combat takes too long, maybe we're not
>unusual at all. Anyway, please answer these two short questions:
>
>1) How long, on average, do your Champions sessions run?
>2) How many combats occur during an average session?
>
>My answers:
>1) Five to six hours.
>2) Two.
The campaign I'm currently in is rather similar -- sessions run from 4-6
hours, typically, with 2-3 combats in them.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo shirley.theramp.net from voxel@theramp.net server @shirley.theramp.net ip 205.212.88.4
X-Sender: voxel@mail.theramp.net
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 04:21:42 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net>
Subject: RE: multiple defense layers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 02:32 PM 5/5/98 -0500, Dataweaver wrote:
>Side note: IMHO, any game that is that dependant on injury to the PCs to
>provide excitement and interest has something seriously wrong with it.
>(Emphasis: IMHO. Feel free to disagree...)
No disagreement here. I can understand that a player who cannot tolerate his
PC ever taking damage may be obsessing -- but so is a GM who cannot tolerate
his PCs NOT taking damage. The first case is symptomatic of mild paranoia;
the latter is symptomatic of an adversarial attitude, one of the most
unhealthy traits a GM can develop. A PC built /fairly/ in a fashion that
makes it highly unlikely he'll ever take damage is a perfectly legitimate
concept -- after all, he'll most likely have sacrificed many other potential
abilities to get this tough. The "jack of all trades and master of none"
effect works backwards, too.
--
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 07:13:13 -0500
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Okay, I'll ask *again*...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 7
I asked this two days ago, and though the DR messages have been flying fast
and furious since then, no one has deigned to respond to my question. I
know from my time on this list that there is no question so stupid that
*someone* won't respond, so perhaps some of my messages suffer from
Invisible Post Effects...? Anyway, here it is:
Separate question(I assume this has already come up, but if so I missed
it): What was the group consensus -- wait, let me rephrase that :) What
were the various group opinions on layering existing levels of DR, to
approach 100% without actually getting there? Three layers of 75% DR,
each successive layer operating against damage that got through the
previous layer, would provide 98% DR...
100 pts - 75% DR = 25 pts
25 pts - 75% DR = 6.25 pts
6.25 pts - 75% DR = 1.5625 pts (rounds to 2 pts)
Damon
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/ |
| Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines |
| Worthy Causes -- Computer -- Atlanta -- All Human Knowledge |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 05:37:15 -0700
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 10
At 09:41 PM 5/4/1998 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote:
>On 4 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>> >> It has no business in a game with more than one PC.
>>
>> > Your point?
>>
>> My point is that in a game with more than one PC, this kind of power will
>> be a problem unless everyone has something similar. Of course, if everyone
>> has something similar, it becomes an "everyman power", so the point cost is
>> irrelevant.
>
>Excuse me? That makes no sense. That's like saying the person with the
>60 STR will be a problem unless everyone else has a 60 STR. If some one
>spends 120 points to be 100% DR vs physical attacks, he has dropped almost
>half of the normal starting point allowance for a superhero into *one*
>power. He still can be affected by NNDs, energy, mental attacks and so
>on. But now, he has only 130 points to spend on stats and skills and
>*other* powers. Yes, he is immune to punches, bullets and force bolts,
>but he is not going to outshine the brick, energy projector or mentalist.
>In fact, a cahracter like that we *need* to be a team player in order to
>*not* get abused by the enemy.
>
>Note, that if you buy 100% DR ns Energy *AND* physical, you have a
>whopping 10 points left over to round out your character, effectivly
>making you useless (except as possibly a door stop).
Maybe those other 10 points could be put into Running, and the character
could call himself Speed Bump. ;-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 05:40:17 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 11
At 10:03 PM 5/4/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Dataweaver writes:
>
>> Actually, everyone _would_ have something comparable - though not
>> neccessarily similar; everyone would have 120 points-worth of abilities
>> that Mr. Invulnerable would _not_ have...
>
>120 points, while significant for a 250-point character, still leaves quite
>a bit for buying other things. When you have a character that cannot be
>hurt and can do (almost) as much damage as the other PCs, you have a
>recipie for resentful players.
As pointed out, though, a character who has spent 120 points for 100% DR
vs Energy can still be hurt by punches, bullets, knockback, and mental
attacks, while a character who has spent 120 points for 100% DR vs Physical
can still be hurt by fire, lightning, cold, and mental attacks. One needs
to spend 240 points to be invulnerable to punches, bullets, knockback,
fire, lightning, and cold, and even so he'll still be vulnerable to mental
attacks *and* have only 10 points left over in a standard supers game for
Skills and such (more if he kicks some Characteristics down like Mr. Lucky
did).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hil-img-5.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @hil-img-5.compuserve.com ip 149.174.177.135
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 09:05:43 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Deathtraps
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Content-Disposition: inline
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id JAA02021
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 12
Message text written by Bob Greenwade
> I usually let any reasonable means of escape work (or, at the very
least, have a chance of working), and I also like to plan out a "default"
escape that will get the hero out even if he can't come up with anything.<
This is the answer I was sorta expecting, which leads to another question:
Doesn't this invalidate the whole danger of a deathtrap, since the player
knows that the GM isn't going to kill his character, even if the player is
stuck for ideas? Or, maybe the player has ideas, but he fails the needed
skill rolls? It seems like the players could get a sense of
invulnerability. Anyway, this is just me thinking out loud, since I've
never used a deathtrap in my campaigns (because of the above problem) and
because no GM has ever put me in one.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-SMTP: helo dillinger.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@dillinger.io.com ip 199.170.88.11
X-Authentication-Warning: dillinger.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 08:29:57 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 13
On Mon, 4 May 1998, Dataweaver wrote:
> Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
> On Mon, 4 May 1998, Sakura wrote:
> > Actually, I'd be even /more/ scared of Mr. 75%/75%, because his defenses
> > are more spread out, whereas Mr. 100%/0%'s defenses are concentrated on
> > one area, and he can probably be taken out fairly easily by attacks of the
> > type he's not vulnerable to.
>
> That brings up a good point; 120 points for total invulnerability to one
> of physical, energy, or mental attacks might well be too _high_ of a point
> cost. It certainly is _not_ too low... (IMHO, 90 points would seem to be
> a bit more reasonable of a price for what the ability gives you.)
The only problem I'd have there is that you're making it much easier to
get complete invulnerability (by buying it 2 or 3 times) - and 180 points
is /not/ too much to pay for not being harmed by physical /and/ energy -
at least by my gut feeling. 240 is about right - that allows you a
character in a normal campaign whose sole power is invulnerability, or one
in a high-powered game who has invulnerability and a few other minor
powers.
60 points for 'immune to fire' has a nice feeling to it, too, assuming
'fire' is a -1 limit.
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-SMTP: helo dillinger.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@dillinger.io.com ip 199.170.88.11
X-Authentication-Warning: dillinger.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 08:40:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
cc: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net&>
Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 14
On Mon, 4 May 1998, Dataweaver wrote:
> On Mon, 4 May 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote:
> > Now, I will state right now that the 3x3 Eyes for Hero project I'm
> > working on will have as one of its 'house rules' the fact that a Wu (a
> > souless being) *cannot* be killed by any means. But, I'm still
> > designing close to 375 points of powers to help support this concept
> > (this includes high levels of Regen, BODY Aids, Life Support and extra
> > BODY), I'm *not* just going to say 'cannot be killed' and expect people
> > to accept that at face value, I am going ot back up my decision with
> > game mechanics.
>
> I don't know; 60 points for "cannot die" seems quite reasonable to me,
> provided that a reasonable in-game explanation is given and a stop sign is
> included to warn away the most extreme versions of abuse.
Well, the Wu healed /incredibly/ quickly, so the Regen and Body aids are
probably useful. Although, I think that this could be a case for 100%
Physical & Energy Damage Reduction with a special effect (seems to do
damage that is healed instantly).
> > I find it interesting that GURPS seems willing to go out on a limb and
> > present such powers as 'Immortal' to allow people to design certain
> > concepts. If Hero is supposed to be an equally good (heck, it's
> > better!) generic engine, than allowances should be made for such
> > concepts and powers.
For the record, GURPS has 'total invulnerability' to certain categories:
Immunity to all kinetic (i.e. 'physical') damage, for example, is 300
points.
It's also got solutions for some of the stickier problems in HERO -
there's a 'Ressurrection' power that lets you come back to life after you
die, while losing some points (and I believe an unofficial modifier that
lets you do it without losing points) - I think that's about 300 (with
modifier) as well.
The closest thing you could get in HERO is some sort of bastardized
Duplication with a trigger (only when dead), or possibly a Transform (dead
body to living, 0 end, uncontrolled, continuous, trigger: death).
Sometimes there are advantages to not having to build all of your pieces
from the same building blocks...
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: Horsebites
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 09:41:50 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 15
Perhaps he is suggesting that you shouldn't add STR. After all, its a bite,
not a punch or kick. The horse can't get his real STR behind it.
Jason Goode
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Desmarais [SMTP:John.Desmarais@ibm.net]
> Sent: Sunday, May 03, 1998 1:56 AM
> To: GoldRushG; hero-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Re: Horsebites
>
> On Sun, 3 May 1998 00:01:53 EDT, GoldRushG wrote:
>
> ><< against an average, unarmored person, this would mean one bite from
> >a horse would leave him at 1 BODY -- a lucky roll would leave him
> /dying/. >>
> >
> > 1D6+1 HKA does 2-7 Body (average of 4.5). That would not leave an
> average
> >person dying, but rather with 5.5 Body left (again, on average). ;)
> >
> > Give them 1 pt of resistant Defense (i.e., Armor) and the damage drops
> to
> >2.5 Body (average). A decent wound, but not life threatening... unless
> the
> >horse perhap bit you in the head or (ouch!) the vitals. :D
> >
> > Mark @ GRG
>
> Don't forget to add in STR though. Wth STR added (and taking the reduced
> pen into
> account) that horse does 2x1d6+1. An average attack (3.5+1 x 2) does 9
> body. Ouch!
>
> -=>John D.
>
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-SMTP: helo dillinger.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@dillinger.io.com ip 199.170.88.11
X-Authentication-Warning: dillinger.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 08:47:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
cc: hero-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Okay, I'll ask *again*...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 16
On Tue, 5 May 1998, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
> Separate question(I assume this has already come up, but if so I missed
> it): What was the group consensus -- wait, let me rephrase that :) What
> were the various group opinions on layering existing levels of DR, to
> approach 100% without actually getting there? Three layers of 75% DR,
> each successive layer operating against damage that got through the
> previous layer, would provide 98% DR...
Note that if you take 50% DR twice (costing 60 points) you get the same
effect as if you bought 75% once (60 points), so this solution has some
merit.
On the other hand, if you take 25% twice (costing 30 points) you /don't/
get the same effect as buying 50% once (30 points). If you take 50%, 25%,
and 25%, you also don't get as much effect as buying 75% once...so maybe
the 50% thing is a fluke. On the other hand, maybe it's the fault of
25%DR, which hasn't fit into any of the logical progressions people have
suggested except for the 25-50-75-100.
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo send1e.yahoomail.com from johndesmarais@yahoo.com server @send1e.yahoomail.com ip 205.180.60.64
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 07:20:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: RE: Horsebites
To: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com&> hero-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 17
---"Goode, Jason" wrote:
>
> Perhaps he is suggesting that you shouldn't add STR. After all, its
a bite,
> not a punch or kick. The horse can't get his real STR behind it.
>
> Jason Goode
Adding in the STR wasn't my idea. I just read it off the write-up in
the BBB. Mayhaps the author of the horse could have saved a couple of
points (and made the damage a little more believable) by simply
limiting the HKA such that STR couldn't be added.
-=>John D.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo eamail1.unisys.com from andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com server @eamail1.unisys.com ip 192.61.103.80
From: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
To: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net&>
"'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Okay, I'll ask *again*...
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 09:36:09 -0500
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 19
>Separate question(I assume this has already come up, but if so
I missed
>it): What was the group consensus -- wait, let me rephrase that
:) What
>were the various group opinions on layering existing levels of
DR, to
>approach 100% without actually getting there? Three layers of
75% DR,
>each successive layer operating against damage that got through
the
>previous layer, would provide 98% DR...
> 100 pts - 75% DR = 25 pts
> 25 pts - 75% DR = 6.25 pts
> 6.25 pts - 75% DR = 1.5625 pts (rounds to 2 pts)
>Damon
Basically you say allow DR be bought multiple times on
same defense (PD/ED). Interesting idea. Puma may try!
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
- Joan of Arc's .sig
Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 08:15:58 -0700
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Horsebites
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:41 AM 5/5/1998 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote:
>Perhaps he is suggesting that you shouldn't add STR. After all, its a bite,
>not a punch or kick. The horse can't get his real STR behind it.
There may be something to the idea of making a bite RKA with No Range.
Back in the early days, I had the idea of having four types of Killing
Attacks:
Basic Killing Attack (BKA) cost 10 points/die, had no Range, and did not
add STR.
Hand-To-Hand Killing Attack (HKA) cost 15 points/die, had no Range, and
added STR.
Ranged Killing Attack (RKA) cost 15 points/die, had Range, and did not
add STR.
Thrown Killing Attack (TKA) cost 20 points/die, had Range, and added STR.
I never got a chance to try this out in practice, though.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo user1.cyberis.net from ctaylor@cyberis.net server qmailr@user1.cyberis.net ip 207.14.106.217
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 09:24:18 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: RE: multiple defense layers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 22
At 09:36 AM 5/5/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>Separate question(I assume this has already come up, but if so I missed
>>it): What was the group consensus -- wait, let me rephrase that :) What
>>were the various group opinions on layering existing levels of DR, to
>>approach 100% without actually getting there? Three layers of 75% DR,
>>each successive layer operating against damage that got through the
>>previous layer, would provide 98% DR...
> > 100 pts - 75% DR = 25 pts
> > 25 pts - 75% DR = 6.25 pts
> > 6.25 pts - 75% DR = 1.5625 pts (rounds to 2 pts)
I have bought that sort of, using two 14- layers of defense, so that you
have a good chance of it all working, but then... once in a while hehehe...
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo denmark.it.earthlink.net from dwsalmon@earthlink.net server @denmark-c.it.earthlink.net ip 204.119.177.22
From: "David W. Salmon" <dwsalmon@earthlink.net>
To: "Champions News Group" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re; Deathtrap
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 10:21:41 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 18
<x-html><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=text/html;charset=iso-8859-1 http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META content='"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=GENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>I created a deathtrap once for a speedster. Well
it wasn't really a deathtrap but more like a prison that he needed to get out of
by a certain time or doom would befall his NPCs.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>He was captured and awoke inside what looked
like a metal gerbil's wheel except you could not see thru it. No walls, windows,
doors, etc, nothing. What he eventually found out is that if he started running
around the wheel, the diameter of the wheel would start to expand (it didn't
rotate like a normal wheel, the diameter just expanded so that he moved and the
wheel remained stationary ... hope I explained that okay). So he started running
faster and faster to see what would happen. When he got to his max speed he
noticed what looked like the bottom of a doorway starting to appear. Basically
it worked like this; The character had to push his running for enough phases
that the wheel would expand to expose the doorway to get out. Then the character
had to make a DEX roll to jump out thru the door just at the right time. Of
course there were modifiers to the DEX roll because he was running so fast. If
he failed then he would have to wait until he got his endurance back before he
tried again. Then of course there is the damage he took from missing the doorway
and jumping into the wall (move-thru !!) at a very high velocity to boot. It
actually took him about a dozen or so tries to get out. I enjoyed it, the
character enjoyed it. The character was not a big thinker so I needed a trap
which relied more on dice rolls than anything else.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>Anybody else got one??</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>...Dave S.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
</x-html>Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo arthur.avalon.net from pod@avalon.net server root@arthur.avalon.net ip 204.71.106.20
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 12:55:04 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: pod@avalon.net
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net>
Subject: RE: multiple defense layers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 28
If someone were to do this in my campaign, that character would find himself
being attacked by a number of villians with PENETRATING attacks. So
regardless of how many levels of DR you have, you are still going to take
damage. In my campaign, a character with this would HAVE to die! Or at
least be severly beaten.
At 09:24 AM 5/5/98 -0700, you wrote:
>At 09:36 AM 5/5/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>>Separate question(I assume this has already come up, but if so I missed
>>>it): What was the group consensus -- wait, let me rephrase that :) What
>>>were the various group opinions on layering existing levels of DR, to
>>>approach 100% without actually getting there? Three layers of 75% DR,
>>>each successive layer operating against damage that got through the
>>>previous layer, would provide 98% DR...
>
>> > 100 pts - 75% DR = 25 pts
>> > 25 pts - 75% DR = 6.25 pts
>> > 6.25 pts - 75% DR = 1.5625 pts (rounds to 2 pts)
>
>I have bought that sort of, using two 14- layers of defense, so that you
>have a good chance of it all working, but then... once in a while hehehe...
>
>----------------------------------------------------------
>Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
>Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 12:58:45 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: hero-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Okay, I'll ask *again*...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 26
> Separate question(I assume this has already come up, but if so I missed
> it): What was the group consensus -- wait, let me rephrase that :) What
> were the various group opinions on layering existing levels of DR, to
> approach 100% without actually getting there? Three layers of 75% DR,
> each successive layer operating against damage that got through the
> previous layer, would provide 98% DR...
Personally, I find it a bad idea.
This is an expensive effect as is, it doesn't need to be costlier
for less effect. Heck, as is, your suggestion would still make immunity
impossible.
I find the arguments for high costs for Immortality to be equally
dubious in value. There really isn't a whole lot of value in being
(mostly) unkillable. I'd make it something like LS: Can't be killed
(except by X) for about 10-15 points. In a 4-color campaign, Body damage
and death just isn't that big. In campaigns where it is big, most GMs are
going to disallow the power anyway, as it doesn't fit the campaign.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 13:00:35 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Deathtraps
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 27
> This is the answer I was sorta expecting, which leads to another question:
> Doesn't this invalidate the whole danger of a deathtrap, since the player
> knows that the GM isn't going to kill his character, even if the player is
But this isn't at all against the idea of the death trap. How
often have you seen a hero in the comics actually killed by one of these.
They are there to escape from.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 13:12:27 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: multiple defense layers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 29
> If someone were to do this in my campaign, that character would find himself
> being attacked by a number of villians with PENETRATING attacks. So
> regardless of how many levels of DR you have, you are still going to take
> damage. In my campaign, a character with this would HAVE to die! Or at
> least be severly beaten.
What a wonderful attidute!
You don't like a power, so you have to kill the character.
It's GMs like you that give us all a bad name.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo send1d.yahoomail.com from johndesmarais@yahoo.com server @send1d.yahoomail.com ip 205.180.60.48
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 11:16:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: RE: multiple defense layers
To: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net&> champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 33
---Palace of Dwarves wrote:
>
> If someone were to do this in my campaign, that character would find
himself
> being attacked by a number of villians with PENETRATING attacks. So
> regardless of how many levels of DR you have, you are still going to
take
> damage. In my campaign, a character with this would HAVE to die!
Or at
> least be severly beaten.
That makes no sense at all. If you don't like the idea then simply do
allow it, but to punish the player (or character) because YOU chose to
allow a construct you don't like into your game is just a little bit
petty.
-=>John D.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net from kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net server @mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net ip 204.127.131.33
From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org&> "Palace of Dwarves" <pod@avalon.net>
Subject: Re: multiple defense layers
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 13:17:47 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 34
-----Original Message-----
From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 12:59 PM
Subject: RE: multiple defense layers
>If someone were to do this in my campaign, that character would find
himself
>being attacked by a number of villians with PENETRATING attacks. So
>regardless of how many levels of DR you have, you are still going to take
>damage. In my campaign, a character with this would HAVE to die! Or at
>least be severly beaten.
>
>At 09:24 AM 5/5/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>At 09:36 AM 5/5/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>>>Separate question(I assume this has already come up, but if so I missed
>>>>it): What was the group consensus -- wait, let me rephrase that :)
What
>>>>were the various group opinions on layering existing levels of DR, to
>>>>approach 100% without actually getting there? Three layers of 75% DR,
>>>>each successive layer operating against damage that got through the
>>>>previous layer, would provide 98% DR...
>>
>>> > 100 pts - 75% DR = 25 pts
>>> > 25 pts - 75% DR = 6.25 pts
>>> > 6.25 pts - 75% DR = 1.5625 pts (rounds to 2 pts)
>>
>>I have bought that sort of, using two 14- layers of defense, so that you
>>have a good chance of it all working, but then... once in a while
hehehe...
In my opinion this type of defense should only be bought when limited to one
type of special affect attack. For instance, a fire elemental might have two
layers of damage reduction only vs. Fire, but an energy projector should not
buy two layers of damage reduction for energy defense. It is far too
abusive.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo camel14.mindspring.com from cypriot@concentric.net server @camel14.mindspring.com ip 207.69.200.64
X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 14:31:07 -0400
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: RE: multiple defense layers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 35
At 01:12 PM 5/5/98 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
>
>
>> If someone were to do this in my campaign, that character would find
himself
>> being attacked by a number of villians with PENETRATING attacks. So
>> regardless of how many levels of DR you have, you are still going to take
>> damage. In my campaign, a character with this would HAVE to die! Or at
>> least be severly beaten.
>
> What a wonderful attidute!
>
> You don't like a power, so you have to kill the character.
>
> It's GMs like you that give us all a bad name.
>
On the contrary. I consider that a proper attidute to have. As GM,
it is your job to come up with an interesting story line or an
interesting challenge. If you've got a character who simply declares
"I want to do all the battle, but I never want to lose," what the hell
is interesting about that?
We use the same attitude for a number of things in the campaign. It
does no good, for example, to beef up your armor, because the bad guys
will eventually just hit harder. Why waste points on extra speed when
the bad guy can be as fast as the GM wants?
The attitude that cripples a game is the player that feels that if he
isn't winning every battle without a scratch, then he isn't having fun.
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo send1b.yahoomail.com from johndesmarais@yahoo.com server @send1b.yahoomail.com ip 205.180.60.23
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 11:32:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: RE: multiple defense layers
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 36
---John Desmarais wrote:
>
> ---Palace of Dwarves wrote:
> >
> > If someone were to do this in my campaign, that character would find
> himself
> > being attacked by a number of villians with PENETRATING attacks. So
> > regardless of how many levels of DR you have, you are still going to
> take
> > damage. In my campaign, a character with this would HAVE to die!
> Or at
> > least be severly beaten.
>
> That makes no sense at all. If you don't like the idea then simply do
That should be "don't"
> allow it, but to punish the player (or character) because YOU chose to
> allow a construct you don't like into your game is just a little bit
> petty.
>
> -=>John D.
> _________________________________________________________
> DO YOU YAHOO!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo send1e.yahoomail.com from johndesmarais@yahoo.com server @send1e.yahoomail.com ip 205.180.60.64
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 11:58:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: RE: multiple defense layers
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 37
---Mike Christodoulou wrote:
>
> At 01:12 PM 5/5/98 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> >
> >
> >> If someone were to do this in my campaign, that character would
find
> himself
> >> being attacked by a number of villians with PENETRATING attacks.
So
> >> regardless of how many levels of DR you have, you are still going
to take
> >> damage. In my campaign, a character with this would HAVE to die!
Or at
> >> least be severly beaten.
> >
> > What a wonderful attidute!
> >
> > You don't like a power, so you have to kill the character.
> >
> > It's GMs like you that give us all a bad name.
> >
>
> On the contrary. I consider that a proper attidute to have. As GM,
> it is your job to come up with an interesting story line or an
> interesting challenge. If you've got a character who simply declares
> "I want to do all the battle, but I never want to lose," what the hell
> is interesting about that?
>
> We use the same attitude for a number of things in the campaign. It
> does no good, for example, to beef up your armor, because the bad guys
> will eventually just hit harder. Why waste points on extra speed when
> the bad guy can be as fast as the GM wants?
>
> The attitude that cripples a game is the player that feels that if he
> isn't winning every battle without a scratch, then he isn't having
fun.
Except he's not talking about insuring that character doesn't emerge
from combat without a scratch. He said the character must die, all
because it was built using a power construct that the GM didn't like -
quote "In my campaign, a character with this would HAVE to die!" I'll
say again, if he doesn't want the idea to be used, then just don't let
it be used; this "would have to die" nonsense is just silly.
-=>John D.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hilltop.ic.edu from trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu server @hilltop.ic.edu ip 192.217.244.1
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:05:52 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: multiple defense layers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 38
> >> If someone were to do this in my campaign, that character would find
> himself
> >> being attacked by a number of villians with PENETRATING attacks. So
> >> regardless of how many levels of DR you have, you are still going to take
> >> damage. In my campaign, a character with this would HAVE to die! Or at
> >> least be severly beaten.
> >
> > What a wonderful attidute!
> >
> > You don't like a power, so you have to kill the character.
> >
> > It's GMs like you that give us all a bad name.
> >
>
> On the contrary. I consider that a proper attidute to have. As GM,
> it is your job to come up with an interesting story line or an
> interesting challenge. If you've got a character who simply declares
> "I want to do all the battle, but I never want to lose," what the hell
> is interesting about that?
You didn't read the original message fully. Pay attention to his
statement that a character like this would have to die. That's really not
very nice, bringing a personal dislike of a power against the player.
And what's so wrong with a character that can't die? He may take
some damage, maybe not, but there are other ways for a player to
occasionally not succeed. Use some imagination.
-Tim Gilberg
-"Hey! MacLeod! Get off of my ewe!"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com from icepirat@ix.netcom.com server @dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com ip 206.214.98.12
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 19:07:44 +0000
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: multiple defense layers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 39
Palace of Dwarves wrote:
>
> If someone were to do this in my campaign, that character would find himself
> being attacked by a number of villians with PENETRATING attacks. So
> regardless of how many levels of DR you have, you are still going to take
> damage. In my campaign, a character with this would HAVE to die! Or at
> least be severly beaten.
I snipped the section on multiple layers of Damage Reduction.
Penetrating attacks get reduced as well. So if the character has the
equivalent of 7/8 Damage Reduction and 3 stun gets through his defenses, he
takes no damage.
Instead of killing off characters that displease you, how about rejecting them
instead? Or are you getting off on GM power trips?
-Mark Lemming
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hil-img-4.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @hil-img-4.compuserve.com ip 149.174.177.134
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 15:14:07 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Session length
Cc: "Champions News Group" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Content-Disposition: inline
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id PAA26372
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 40
I just wanted to get a general demographic to see how my group
compares...I've become a little concerned that we get hung up on battles
and don't accomplish much story. However, seeing that the big complaint
from the Fuzion group is that 4E combat takes too long, maybe we're not
unusual at all. Anyway, please answer these two short questions:
1) How long, on average, do your Champions sessions run?
2) How many combats occur during an average session?
My answers:
1) Five to six hours.
2) Two.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo camel14.mindspring.com from cypriot@concentric.net server @camel14.mindspring.com ip 207.69.200.64
X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 15:24:07 -0400
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: RE: multiple defense layers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 42
> You didn't read the original message fully. Pay attention to his
>statement that a character like this would have to die. That's really not
>very nice, bringing a personal dislike of a power against the player.
Yeah, I'll have to give you that one. We don't kill anybody in our
campaign unless they really WANT to die. (Come to think of it, the
only two casualties so far have been MY characters.)
Personally, I wonder about the usefulness of the entire thread. Why
would anybody WANT a character that couldn't be hurt. And if you
just want one that won't DIE, just say so!
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 05 May 1998 15:26:40 -0400
Lines: 32
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 44
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Ron Abitz writes:
> Read the examples under DR in the book they based the modifer based on
> how common the attack sfx.
Yes, do so.
> Or are you saying that the examples in the book are wrong?
The examples of *limitations* on Damage Reduction are for specific cases
where a caracter's DR should be affective against only one type of effect.
I am not talking about individual case limitations, I am talking about the
base power without any modifiers whatsoever.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNU9n756VRH7BJMxHAQGlTgP/ZmEgmAKXzhDpr3G0Wl3Kwsf0cNAS8cr4
5xAFoHt965xcqrJQ46ZzdQ5tDuzb8BUZ2SYbSOJMcwP4Y7OH/dT5g+Gavfhbtmc2
+DZKnXz/KP6C9dCkB0g5r6JKdatvPBHNKJddjVHMhL8FgtwysfYKsttFYNAYCAd7
6r3VivMkaXI=
=LbVs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds.
\
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-SMTP: helo dillinger.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@dillinger.io.com ip 199.170.88.11
X-Authentication-Warning: dillinger.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:28:14 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: multiple defense layers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 43
On Tue, 5 May 1998, Mike Christodoulou wrote:
> At 01:12 PM 5/5/98 -0500, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> >> If someone were to do this in my campaign, that character would find
> himself
> >> being attacked by a number of villians with PENETRATING attacks. So
> >> regardless of how many levels of DR you have, you are still going to take
> >> damage. In my campaign, a character with this would HAVE to die! Or at
> >> least be severly beaten.
> >
> > What a wonderful attidute!
> > You don't like a power, so you have to kill the character.
> > It's GMs like you that give us all a bad name.
>
> On the contrary. I consider that a proper attidute to have. As GM,
> it is your job to come up with an interesting story line or an
> interesting challenge.
By implication, then, combat is the only possible challenge, because
combat is the only thing that would affect this character.
There's no way he could have psychological weaknesses.
There's no way he could have a background, a DNPC, a dark secret that
would provide an interesting story or a challenge.
There's no way he could have a personality or interact with other people.
Yeah, right. If you don't mind, spread some of that bullcrap on my
garden, the plants need fertilized.
> If you've got a character who simply declares
> "I want to do all the battle, but I never want to lose," what the hell
> is interesting about that?
What the hell is wrong with the GM saying up front 'Don't do this, I don't
like it' instead of letting the player take the power and then killing off
his character?
What the hell is wrong with the GM coming up with adventures that don't
revolve around combat, but instead explore the character's background and
the implications of his powers?
Yeah, if all the player wants to do is fight, and he takes an
'invulnerability' power, it's not going to be very interesting. But
that's a function of the player and not the power. I could take the same
power and make it (IMHO) /very/ interesting for the GM and the other
players.
> We use the same attitude for a number of things in the campaign. It
> does no good, for example, to beef up your armor, because the bad guys
> will eventually just hit harder. Why waste points on extra speed when
> the bad guy can be as fast as the GM wants?
Because it fits the character concept? Because the player is assuming
that the GM isn't going to give villains powers that don't fit their
concept?
I dislike the 'adversarial' attitude I see in these posts, a lot.
Look, the player that takes the damage reduction powers obviously wants to
play someone who can take a lot of punishment. The character who takes a
high speed wants to play someone who is faster than the norm. If all of
the villains show up with punches that can take down Mr. Tough and speeds
that rival Mr. Fast, the players are going to be (and rightly so, I think)
angry and resentful, because the GM is deliberately not letting their
characters excel in the fields the players want them to excel in.
Wouldn't it be nice if the GM gave the players a challenge that make the
players think and roleplay rather than just pounding them by saying 'my
villains are tougher, nyah nyah.'
Look at the comic books - Flash didn't always fight super-fast opponents.
The Hulk didn't always fight super-strong ones. Some of the best stories
came from when their powers weren't the ultimate solution to things.
> The attitude that cripples a game is the player that feels that if he
> isn't winning every battle without a scratch, then he isn't having fun.
That's very true, but why do you automatically assume that someone is
taking a power for that reason? There's been a lot of that attitude in
this discussion, and I wonder if there are really so many munchkins out
there to engender this kind of knee-jerk response, or if people are afraid
that they and their so-called 'mature' roleplaying friends wouldn't really
be able to handle stuff like this in a game.
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: multiple defense layers
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 05 May 1998 15:30:02 -0400
Lines: 34
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 45
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Mike Christodoulou writes:
> On the contrary. I consider that a proper attidute to have. As GM, it
> is your job to come up with an interesting story line or an interesting
> challenge. If you've got a character who simply declares "I want to do
> all the battle, but I never want to lose," what the hell is interesting
> about that?
Nothing. The GM should be shot for allowing the character into the
campaign in the first place. Blaming the player for your own mistake, then
taking out on him is just plain wrong.
As for the powers in question, the way I figure it is that points of DR are
additive. If you have 50% DR and you obtain 25% DR somehow, that is 45
points of Damage Reduction. You have 50% DR since you need 60 points to
get 75%.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNU9ouZ6VRH7BJMxHAQHRZQP/UeRcAlqa9JRe76EL2o7Z1teV6yz0msiW
dIYNxgp6xxvEXISGI8H+sMfF3VR3Kumn85+C52l5zHoMnibYiISGLeyPxjIg/1N7
jzZimMbNBLoJkYhZsZAQVUYvRQaaawej3Kuhwj2GWDubSGRv1Z7ZIHItyHmYUgGo
Z0SE8goBYrQ=
=S1Qa
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
\
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-SMTP: helo pentagon.io.com from traveler@io.com server traveler@pentagon.io.com ip 199.170.88.5
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: traveler owned process doing -bs
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:32:43 -0500 (CDT)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: multiple defense layers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 46
On Tue, 5 May 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote:
> And what's so wrong with a character that can't die? He may take
> some damage, maybe not, but there are other ways for a player to
> occasionally not succeed. Use some imagination.
Also note that "cannot die" is _not_ the same thing as "cannot be hurt".
Side note: IMHO, any game that is that dependant on injury to the PCs to
provide excitement and interest has something seriously wrong with it.
(Emphasis: IMHO. Feel free to disagree...)
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Okay, I'll ask *again*...
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 05 May 1998 15:33:31 -0400
Lines: 31
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 48
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Michael (Damon) or Peni R Griffin writes:
> 100 pts - 75% DR = 25 pts
> 25 pts - 75% DR = 6.25 pts
> 6.25 pts - 75% DR = 1.5625 pts (rounds to 2 pts)
Like I said elsewhere in the flames (guess I missed the original post the
first time around), DR does not "layer" (my opinion). Points of Damage
Reduction are additive. If you have 25% DR and you somehow get another
25%, that is 30 points of DR, which equates to 50%, so you have 50% DR. If
you have 50% and somehow get another 25%, that is 45 points of DR, not
enough for the next level, so the "extra" DR does you no good. If you have
75% DR, more points of DR do nothing, since that is the end of the scale.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNU9piJ6VRH7BJMxHAQH0kQQAlBeK49CsKoS5mJxFI6JceN7O9yQFEHpi
o88FqIJJVWhZBE6LGZLVMy33MEJSqCB0OoMuTn6GskOZMLvrMpJnBb42BXY3WH+A
epH89Eq89Q1UoptoOfbHWOdm2xLGB+Yj8OMCQ+65dzNUzLeuPFH4vWCLnCJ9AoPk
XlRr931ISsQ=
=/qa8
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo arthur.avalon.net from pod@avalon.net server root@arthur.avalon.net ip 204.71.106.20
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:37:40 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: pod@avalon.net
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net>
Subject: RE: multiple defense layers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 47
>> >> If someone were to do this in my campaign, that character would
>find
>> himself
>> >> being attacked by a number of villians with PENETRATING attacks.
>So
>> >> regardless of how many levels of DR you have, you are still going
>to take
>> >> damage. In my campaign, a character with this would HAVE to die!
> Or at
>> >> least be severly beaten.
>> >
>> > What a wonderful attidute!
>> >
>> > You don't like a power, so you have to kill the character.
>> >
>> > It's GMs like you that give us all a bad name.
>> >
It's not that I don't like the power, it's that I don't like to see it abused.
>> On the contrary. I consider that a proper attidute to have. As GM,
>> it is your job to come up with an interesting story line or an
>> interesting challenge. If you've got a character who simply declares
>> "I want to do all the battle, but I never want to lose," what the hell
>> is interesting about that?
>>
>> We use the same attitude for a number of things in the campaign. It
>> does no good, for example, to beef up your armor, because the bad guys
>> will eventually just hit harder. Why waste points on extra speed when
>> the bad guy can be as fast as the GM wants?
>>
>> The attitude that cripples a game is the player that feels that if he
>> isn't winning every battle without a scratch, then he isn't having
>fun.
>
>Except he's not talking about insuring that character doesn't emerge
>from combat without a scratch. He said the character must die, all
>because it was built using a power construct that the GM didn't like -
>quote "In my campaign, a character with this would HAVE to die!" I'll
>say again, if he doesn't want the idea to be used, then just don't let
>it be used; this "would have to die" nonsense is just silly.
>
First, I would not allow a chacter to have DR purchased multiple times. I
don't like it. I think that it is abusing the rules.
Secondly, I have not killed off any of my PC's in my game. I do not like
doing it if I can help it. I'm trying to set up a enjoyable campaign for my
players to enjoy.
Just crunched the numbers.
For a PC to have 100% DR, it would cost around 600 pts. This is purchasing
it x15 without it being resistent.
For that same amount of points, a PC could purchase Armor at 200/200.
If a PC needs armor or DR bought this many times, then something is
seriously wrong with the campaign.
The idea of a PC not taking any damage is beyond my imagination. I cannot
see a PC never taking damage. And if the PC is paranoid enough to worry
about taking damage, then maybe that person should not be playing the game.
I don't think that the PC's should win every battle that they have. Also, I
don't think that they should lose every battle either.
I just got out of a year long campaign where the PC's won one battle out of
fifteen. This did shit for the moral of the group. Whenever people would
leave the campaign, the GM would kill off that persons character because
they dared to leave his game. That was the attitude that I have been trying
to get away from.
So don't go tellinh me that I am a bad GM. You haven't sat in on one of my
sessions. You don't know how I GM.
The End. Period.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo arthur.avalon.net from pod@avalon.net server root@arthur.avalon.net ip 204.71.106.20
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:40:48 -0500 (CDT)
X-Sender: pod@avalon.net
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net>
Subject: Re: Session length
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 49
At 03:14 PM 5/5/98 -0400, you wrote:
>I just wanted to get a general demographic to see how my group
>compares...I've become a little concerned that we get hung up on battles
>and don't accomplish much story. However, seeing that the big complaint
>from the Fuzion group is that 4E combat takes too long, maybe we're not
>unusual at all. Anyway, please answer these two short questions:
>
>1) How long, on average, do your Champions sessions run?
Four to Five hours.
>2) How many combats occur during an average session?
One to two.
>
>My answers:
>1) Five to six hours.
>2) Two.
>
>
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo post.mail.demon.net from chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk server @post-10.mail.demon.net ip 194.217.242.39
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 20:54:18 +0100
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
To: "hero-l@sysabend.org" <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Horsebites
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
John Desmarais wrote:
>
> On Sun, 3 May 1998 00:01:53 EDT, GoldRushG wrote:
>
> ><< against an average, unarmored person, this would mean one bite from
> >a horse would leave him at 1 BODY -- a lucky roll would leave him /dying/. >>
> >
> > 1D6+1 HKA does 2-7 Body (average of 4.5). That would not leave an average
> >person dying, but rather with 5.5 Body left (again, on average). ;)
> >
> > Give them 1 pt of resistant Defense (i.e., Armor) and the damage drops to
> >2.5 Body (average). A decent wound, but not life threatening... unless the
> >horse perhap bit you in the head or (ouch!) the vitals. :D
> >
> > Mark @ GRG
>
> Don't forget to add in STR though. Wth STR added (and taking the reduced pen into
> account) that horse does 2x1d6+1. An average attack (3.5+1 x 2) does 9 body. Ouch!
>
> -=>John D.
Personally I wouldn't allow STR to be added to this kind of attack. I
always thought this rule could be a bit excessive, especially when you
consider what the horse strength represents.
The horses strength is mostly in it's back and legs, allowing to pull
carts etc. This strength is not in it's jaw however. I think the attack
as listed (especially in view of the evidence given here in the list) is
probably about right.
--
_==/ i i \==_
/XX/ |\___/| \XX\
/XXXX\ |XXXXX| /XXXX\
|XXXXXX\_ _XXXXXXX_ _/XXXXXX|
XXXXXXXXXXXxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXXXxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXXX
|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|
XXXXXXXXX http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk XXXXXXXXX
|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|
XXXXXX/^^^^"\XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX/^^^^^\XXXXXX
|XXX| \XXX/^^\XXXXX/^^\XXX/ |XXX|
\XX\ \X/ \XXX/ \X/ /XX/
"\ " \X/ " /"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hil-img-3.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @hil-img-3.compuserve.com ip 149.174.177.133
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 15:56:38 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Character death (was Re: multiple defense layers)
To: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Content-Disposition: inline
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id PAA29873
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 50
Message text written by Mike Christodoulou
>Yeah, I'll have to give you that one. We don't kill anybody in our
campaign unless they really WANT to die. (Come to think of it, the
only two casualties so far have been MY characters.)<
While I agree that superhero PC death should be very rare (as compared to
other genres), I don't think it should be completely taken out of the
picture unless a player wants it to happen. For one thing, it makes
Killing Attacks less scary than they should be. It might also make players
take a threat less seriously, because they know the good ol' GM will see
them through. Also, very interesting storylines can come from dead
characters...they can be resurrected with a different personality (maybe as
a villain), for example. I think the movie Yellowbeard said it best: "Us
Yellowbeards are never more dangerous than when we're dead!"
My group has pretty much taken on the mindset that it is impossible to kill
or be killed because of the low death rate in the typical Champions game,
so I have been giving them some hard lessons via agents. One punch from
our martial artist can bring an agent almost down to zero BODY, and our
shapeshifter who likes to turn his hands into blades (HKA) is going to
learn a hard lesson soon, because he likes to use HKA as a quick way to
take people out (they do lots of STUN, usually, and he figures BODY is
negligible). Most heroes can laugh off all but the most powerful HKA
attacks (if you ignore the STUN), so the players don't really know the
power that their PCs wield.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo mercury.sun.com from samuel.bell@eng.sun.com server @mercury.Sun.COM ip 192.9.25.1
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 13:01:19 -0700
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell)
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: multiple defense layers
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-> From Cypriot@concentric.net Tue May 5 12:25:28 1998
->
-> Personally, I wonder about the usefulness of the entire thread. Why
-> would anybody WANT a character that couldn't be hurt. And if you
-> just want one that won't DIE, just say so!
->
As a data point:
I was running a campaign a few years back and one of the heroes was the
aptly named "Mr Impervious". He had enough defenses to be immune to just
about anything except for mental attacks. Otherwise, he was just a normal
(highly skilled) man with a gun. He probably took stun in about 1/5 or
1/10 of the games he was in, but he was a fun character.
Although most of my villains couldn't do stun to him, they could throw him
down pits, entangle him, put very heavy things on him, or take his gun away.
It seems like whenever anyone posts to this group saying "Why would anybody..."
there's always someone who does whatever it is they are eschewing (and it
is usually me!).
-Sam
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo post.mail.demon.net from chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk server @post-10.mail.demon.net ip 194.217.242.39
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 21:05:59 +0100
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
To: Robert <baron@stlnet.com>
CC: Champs <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Invulnrability, Immortality, Eternality
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
! Snippity snip snip !
> See the brain in a bottle discussion above. A player of mine had an
> interesting concept one time, he bought Body with a -2 limitation (only to
> prevent death once below 0 body) and he bought about 20 extra body this way.
> He then had an extradimensional travel with a trigger on it that it went off
> when he reached below 0 body... he bought a duplicate with the restriction
> that the duplicate would also be DEAD when it showed up and could only take
> his place if he left when the extra-dimensional sucked him out...which was,
> by the way, the trigger for the duplicate. He also had a BUT load of
> regeneration, only usable in this extra-dimensional pocket dimension. And
> also shape-change with the stipulation that it was uncontrolled and .... you
> guessed it, triggered only when he went below 0 body. The end result is a
> fellow who kept leaving dead bodies around whenever he was killed and then
> would show up later, unhurt and in a different form. He called himself
> Pheonix, he also had mental and spirit powers and didn't know where he came
> from. He eventually found he was an angel but.... thats another story.
>
> > Jason Sullivan
Presumably he either had a LOT of duplicates available; or was he just
living long enough to build up the experience which he needed to buy a
new duplicate when he came back?
Personally I would have written this up as a special effect of the XDM,
especially if it ONLY triggered when the guy was splattered.
--
_==/ i i \==_
/XX/ |\___/| \XX\
/XXXX\ |XXXXX| /XXXX\
|XXXXXX\_ _XXXXXXX_ _/XXXXXX|
XXXXXXXXXXXxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXXXxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXXX
|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|
XXXXXXXXX http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk XXXXXXXXX
|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|
XXXXXX/^^^^"\XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX/^^^^^\XXXXXX
|XXX| \XXX/^^\XXXXX/^^\XXX/ |XXX|
\XX\ \X/ \XXX/ \X/ /XX/
"\ " \X/ " /"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo send1c.yahoomail.com from johndesmarais@yahoo.com server @send1c.yahoomail.com ip 205.180.60.38
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 13:09:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: RE: multiple defense layers
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
It's true, we haven't sat in on one of your sessions, so we can only
judge based on what you've stated; and you stated that you would kill
off a character is it was built using the power construct in question
(as opposed to merely telling the player not to use the power
construct in question). Now you have ammended your stated position to
be " I would not allow a chacter to have DR purchased multiple times".
This, at least, is a position that people can understand, but the
previous comments (and by association, the way you were judged) were
based entirely on how YOU told us you would react as a GM.
-=>John D.
---Palace of Dwarves wrote:
> First, I would not allow a chacter to have DR purchased multiple
times. I
> don't like it. I think that it is abusing the rules.
> Secondly, I have not killed off any of my PC's in my game. I do not
like
> doing it if I can help it. I'm trying to set up a enjoyable
campaign for my
> players to enjoy.
>
> Just crunched the numbers.
> For a PC to have 100% DR, it would cost around 600 pts. This is
purchasing
> it x15 without it being resistent.
> For that same amount of points, a PC could purchase Armor at 200/200.
> If a PC needs armor or DR bought this many times, then something is
> seriously wrong with the campaign.
>
> The idea of a PC not taking any damage is beyond my imagination. I
cannot
> see a PC never taking damage. And if the PC is paranoid enough to
worry
> about taking damage, then maybe that person should not be playing
the game.
>
> I don't think that the PC's should win every battle that they have.
Also, I
> don't think that they should lose every battle either.
>
> I just got out of a year long campaign where the PC's won one battle
out of
> fifteen. This did shit for the moral of the group. Whenever people
would
> leave the campaign, the GM would kill off that persons character
because
> they dared to leave his game. That was the attitude that I have
been trying
> to get away from.
>
> So don't go tellinh me that I am a bad GM. You haven't sat in on
one of my
> sessions. You don't know how I GM.
>
> The End. Period.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo send1e.yahoomail.com from johndesmarais@yahoo.com server @send1e.yahoomail.com ip 205.180.60.64
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 13:22:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Character death (was Re: multiple defense layers)
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
---David Stallard wrote:
>
> Message text written by Mike Christodoulou
> >Yeah, I'll have to give you that one. We don't kill anybody in our
> campaign unless they really WANT to die. (Come to think of it, the
> only two casualties so far have been MY characters.)<
>
> While I agree that superhero PC death should be very rare (as
compared to
> other genres), I don't think it should be completely taken out of the
> picture unless a player wants it to happen. For one thing, it makes
> Killing Attacks less scary than they should be. It might also make
players
> take a threat less seriously, because they know the good ol' GM will
see
> them through. Also, very interesting storylines can come from dead
> characters...they can be resurrected with a different personality
(maybe as
> a villain), for example. I think the movie Yellowbeard said it
best: "Us
> Yellowbeards are never more dangerous than when we're dead!"
>
> My group has pretty much taken on the mindset that it is impossible
to kill
> or be killed because of the low death rate in the typical Champions
game,
> so I have been giving them some hard lessons via agents. One punch
from
> our martial artist can bring an agent almost down to zero BODY, and
our
> shapeshifter who likes to turn his hands into blades (HKA) is going to
> learn a hard lesson soon, because he likes to use HKA as a quick way
to
> take people out (they do lots of STUN, usually, and he figures BODY is
> negligible). Most heroes can laugh off all but the most powerful HKA
> attacks (if you ignore the STUN), so the players don't really know the
> power that their PCs wield.
In the last group that I played with on a regular basis, the pirmary
GM's campiagn had been running for a couple of year before I joined,
and then for about 4 years with me playing. During the time that I
was playing I think four characters died - three of them were mine.
The GM felt that it was a worthwhile thing to occassonaly have a
character die if the group did something phenomonally stupid, or went
up against someone that seriously outclassed us. My character's
usually ended up being the martyr because the GM knew that I never got
"emotionally attached" to my characters and would simply see it as an
excuse to build something else. It would serve as a good "wake-up
call" to the party.
It was kind of ammusing though, watching the other PCs go to heroic
messured to try and save my character (or bring him back to life)
while I'm sitting in a corner, happily writing up my next character.
Most of the other players had a tendency to get just a bit to attached
to their characters (and people tend to assume that other folks are
just like them).
-=>John D.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: Champions News Group <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Session length
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 16:31:24 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
1) 9-10 hours
2) 1 combat on average, though we haven't had a combat in the last 2
sessions.
Jeez, you guys are making me feel inadequate. ;-)
Seriously, while combat can take awhile, we prefer a lot of role-playing in
our role-playing. These folks have some pretty extensive and far reaching
goals, that often involve more character-to-character interaction than
combat. I have to throw in a fight or two just to give myself a break.
Jason Goode
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Stallard [SMTP:DBStallard@compuserve.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 3:14 PM
> To: Goode, Jason
> Cc: Champions News Group
> Subject: Session length
>
>
> 1) How long, on average, do your Champions sessions run?
> 2) How many combats occur during an average session?
>
>
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo gwa.ericsson.com from exucurt@exu.ericsson.se server @gwa.ericsson.com ip 198.215.127.2
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 15:35:14 -0500 (CDT)
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Session length
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
The ubiquitous David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> wrote:
>
> I just wanted to get a general demographic to see how my group
> compares...I've become a little concerned that we get hung up on battles
> and don't accomplish much story. However, seeing that the big complaint
> from the Fuzion group is that 4E combat takes too long, maybe we're not
> unusual at all. Anyway, please answer these two short questions:
>
> 1) How long, on average, do your Champions sessions run?
> 2) How many combats occur during an average session?
>
> My answers:
> 1) Five to six hours.
> 2) Two.
>
1) Also around 5 to 6 hours 2) Generally only the one combat with 4 to 5 PC's
It's been my experience that it's player speed that slows things down.
These answers might be more meaningful if we added:
3) number of players or combatants ?
4) real time spent running the combat
5) number of turns the combat took
3) 4-5 players, 8 to 14 combatants
4) figure an hour and a half to two and a half of 'getting to the fight' stuff,
which leaves playing actual combat of about 2.5 - 3 hours (GUESSING)
5) figure around 2 - 4 combat turns, it was rare for a fight to last a minute
Curt
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo user1.cyberis.net from ctaylor@cyberis.net server qmailr@user1.cyberis.net ip 207.14.106.217
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 13:46:05 -0700
To: David Stallard <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: Re: Session length
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:14 PM 5/5/98 -0400, you wrote:
>I just wanted to get a general demographic to see how my group
>compares...I've become a little concerned that we get hung up on battles
>and don't accomplish much story. However, seeing that the big complaint
>from the Fuzion group is that 4E combat takes too long, maybe we're not
>unusual at all. Anyway, please answer these two short questions:
>
>1) How long, on average, do your Champions sessions run?
about 4-6 hours.... Im including all hero games in this, not just Champs
>2) How many combats occur during an average session?
one on average
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo gwa.ericsson.com from exucurt@exu.ericsson.se server @gwa.ericsson.com ip 198.215.127.2
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 15:56:50 -0500 (CDT)
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Character death (was Re: multiple defense layers)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The GM felt that it was a worthwhile thing to occassonaly have a
> character die if the group did something phenomonally stupid, or went
> up against someone that seriously outclassed us. My character's
> usually ended up being the martyr because the GM knew that I never got
> "emotionally attached" to my characters and would simply see it as an
> excuse to build something else. It would serve as a good "wake-up
> call" to the party.
>
> It was kind of ammusing though, watching the other PCs go to heroic
> messured to try and save my character (or bring him back to life)
> while I'm sitting in a corner, happily writing up my next character.
> Most of the other players had a tendency to get just a bit to attached
> to their characters (and people tend to assume that other folks are
> just like them).
>
I tend to get attached to my characters. I was pleasantly surprised by the
reaction of one of my players, when his character, Random would have died
except for GM intervention. The villain, a matter transmuter, had been blinded and deafened (flash) from an attack by another PC. However, Shimmer groped
her way to Random's unconscious body, and threatened to turn his blood into
acid if the other player attacked again. Unable to make a presence attack,
because Shimmer was blind and deafened, Nobody decides to ricochet a shot
hoping to knock Shimmer away from Random. In a fit of pure GM meanness,
and remembering that Nobody's player (only under extreme duress) had not
bothered to define his SFX other than a "blue beam" and that SFX are required
to have 3 detectable effects, I went ahead and had Shimmer turn Random's blood
to acid. (I don't recall whether Nobody actually did any impact.)
The player took it very calmly and said later that he didn't have a problem if
Random had died, even though it was through no fault of his own. Personally,
I would have been really pi**ed off !
Curt
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo arl-img-5.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @arl-img-5.compuserve.com ip 149.174.217.135
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 17:15:20 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Lurking in web games
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Content-Disposition: inline
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id RAA05979
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I've been meaning to start reading through some campaign notes on the web,
but don't want to spend countless hours finding something worthwhile. I
don't necessarily want to check in on a regular basis to see what the group
is up to...just a campaign history (turn-by-turn or more high level) would
be an interesting read and could spawn all sorts of ideas. Can anybody on
this list recommend any web sites where I can find something like this? It
looks like Shelley Mactyre's site probably fits this bill, but as of yet I
haven't had the time to sit down and read, read, read....
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo mail3.bunt.com from uraeus@bunt.com server @mail3.bunt.com ip 195.178.0.27
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 00:13:17 +0200
From: Rog <uraeus@bunt.com>
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
CC: Champions News Group <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Session length
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
David Stallard wrote:
>
> I just wanted to get a general demographic to see how my group
> compares...I've become a little concerned that we get hung up on battles
> and don't accomplish much story. However, seeing that the big complaint
> from the Fuzion group is that 4E combat takes too long, maybe we're not
> unusual at all. Anyway, please answer these two short questions:
>
> 1) How long, on average, do your Champions sessions run?
> 2) How many combats occur during an average session?>
Back when I was in a game (over a year and a half now):
1) 8-12 hours (that was for any game session we had)
2) 1 or 2 (for superhero; fantasy games had 2-4 combats)
-Roger
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 17:37:12 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: RE: multiple defense layers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 12:55 PM 5/5/98 -0500, Palace of Dwarves wrote:
>If someone were to do this in my campaign, that character would find himself
>being attacked by a number of villians with PENETRATING attacks. So
>regardless of how many levels of DR you have, you are still going to take
>damage. In my campaign, a character with this would HAVE to die! Or at
>least be severly beaten.
Note to self: avoid playing in Palace of Dwarves' campaign... :)
Damon
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/ |
| Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines |
| Worthy Causes -- Computer -- Atlanta -- All Human Knowledge |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 17:47:15 -0500
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: multiple defense layers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:17 PM 5/5/98 -0500, Marc Seebass wrote:
>>>>>were the various group opinions on layering existing levels of DR, to
>>>>>approach 100% without actually getting there? Three layers of 75% DR,
>>>>>each successive layer operating against damage that got through the
>>>>>previous layer, would provide 98% DR...
>>>
>>>> > 100 pts - 75% DR = 25 pts
>>>> > 25 pts - 75% DR = 6.25 pts
>>>> > 6.25 pts - 75% DR = 1.5625 pts (rounds to 2 pts)
>>>
>>>I have bought that sort of, using two 14- layers of defense, so that you
>>>have a good chance of it all working, but then... once in a while
>hehehe...
>In my opinion this type of defense should only be bought when limited to one
>type of special affect attack. For instance, a fire elemental might have two
>layers of damage reduction only vs. Fire, but an energy projector should not
>buy two layers of damage reduction for energy defense. It is far too
>abusive.
Ignoring for the moment the cost-benefit ratio, since that's not what you
objected to, why is this abusive? If I wanted to buy three layers of 25%
DR, for a net protection of 58% DR, I could do that for 30 points (again,
for the moment ignore the fact that for 10 more points I could buy a single
layer of 75% DR, and assume there's both a benefit to having it layered and
something about the character construct that makes it appropriate). How is
58% more abusive than 50% or 75%?
Damon
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/ |
| Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines |
| Worthy Causes -- Computer -- Atlanta -- All Human Knowledge |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 17:57:11 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: RE: multiple defense layers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>On the contrary. I consider that a proper attidute to have. As GM,
>it is your job to come up with an interesting story line or an
>interesting challenge. If you've got a character who simply declares
>"I want to do all the battle, but I never want to lose," what the hell
>is interesting about that?
>
>We use the same attitude for a number of things in the campaign. It
>does no good, for example, to beef up your armor, because the bad guys
>will eventually just hit harder. Why waste points on extra speed when
>the bad guy can be as fast as the GM wants?
>
>The attitude that cripples a game is the player that feels that if he
>isn't winning every battle without a scratch, then he isn't having fun.
I find it interesting, if a bit baffling, that this objection is being
raised against layered defenses which provide less than 100% protection and
cost the player more than some versions of the 100% DR you guys have been
discussing for days.
A player wants to have 100% DR for 120 points? No problem. But 98% DR for
120 points? It cannot be borne! This character must be eliminated!
I agree that a player who feels he must easily "win" all the time will
quickly ruin a game, but conversely the GM needs to allow the players to
feel they're succeeding in the long run. What's my incentive to build up
my character at all if every villain I run into is automatically upgraded
to be on a par with me? Hell, I could just stay at 200 points and fight
the same 200 point villains. If I roleplay the character development and
spend points to broaden his skills, build contacts and so forth in addition
to beefing up combat skills, I expect to be rewarded for that in some way.
Some things should get easier. If *everything* gets easier, it'll get
boring, true. But if I feel like my character earned his XPs and the GM is
handing out freebie points to all my opponents (most of whom probably had
Villain Bonuses to start with) to build them up as fast as my character,
I'm going to feel cheated.
Damon
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/ |
| Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines |
| Worthy Causes -- Computer -- Atlanta -- All Human Knowledge |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 18:04:13 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: RE: multiple defense layers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>First, I would not allow a chacter to have DR purchased multiple times. I
>don't like it. I think that it is abusing the rules.
Again, abusive how?
>
>Just crunched the numbers.
>For a PC to have 100% DR, it would cost around 600 pts. This is purchasing
>it x15 without it being resistent.
How did you arrive at that figure? Four layers of 75% DR would cost 160
points and would drop 100 points of damage to 0.39 points of damage (99.61%
DR, in other words). Why would I need to buy it 15 times?
Damon
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/ |
| Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines |
| Worthy Causes -- Computer -- Atlanta -- All Human Knowledge |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo imo16.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo16.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.38
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 19:07:48 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Session length
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<< 1) How long, on average, do your Champions sessions run?
<< 2) How many combats occur during an average session?
<< My answers:
<< 1) Five to six hours.
<< 2) Two.
Ditto.
Mark @ GRG
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo imo14.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo14.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.36
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 19:32:05 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: The Ultimate Quote
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I have a humble request. Could folks please stop quoting entire 10-page
posts? Please take the time to edit the quote down to the very brief, relevant
segment when replying. Thanks.
Mark @ GRG
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo access4.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access4.digex.net ip 205.197.245.195
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 19:33:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Mon, 4 May 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote:
> I'm trying to come up with a reasonable SFX (other than magic) that a
> character would be absolutely impervious to bullets of any size or form,
> but could be killed by an arrow.
In Dune, theree was a personal force field device that stopped things
based on speed. It was 100% effective vs bullets and shrapnel, less so vs
muscle powered weapons. If I remember correctly, it would stop an arrow
or spear just fine, one could only penetrate it with a knife or sword, and
the blade had to be moving at the right speed. One inside the field, one
could thrust will one's full strength, it was getting thought the field
that mattered.
Oh, and hitting a shield with a lasgun was a big no-no. It killed the
person with a shield, alright, but it also backlashed along the las beam
and blew up the gun (and the user...)
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo access4.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access4.digex.net ip 205.197.245.195
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 19:35:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Desolidification-long!!
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Tue, 5 May 1998, Sakura wrote:
> > > Now, I will state right now that the 3x3 Eyes for Hero project I'm
> > > working on will have as one of its 'house rules' the fact that a Wu (a
> > > souless being) *cannot* be killed by any means. But, I'm still
> > > designing close to 375 points of powers to help support this concept
> > > (this includes high levels of Regen, BODY Aids, Life Support and extra
> > > BODY), I'm *not* just going to say 'cannot be killed' and expect people
> > > to accept that at face value, I am going ot back up my decision with
> > > game mechanics.
> >
> > I don't know; 60 points for "cannot die" seems quite reasonable to me,
> > provided that a reasonable in-game explanation is given and a stop sign is
> > included to warn away the most extreme versions of abuse.
>
> Well, the Wu healed /incredibly/ quickly, so the Regen and Body aids are
> probably useful. Although, I think that this could be a case for 100%
> Physical & Energy Damage Reduction with a special effect (seems to do
> damage that is healed instantly).
Based on the material given (3x3 Eyes Hero is being ported over from GURPS
3x3 Eyes), a Wu does take some time to regenerate, can be chopped up, can
be knocked out and feels pain.
I plan on posting the powers to the list of comments.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo access4.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access4.digex.net ip 205.197.245.195
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 19:41:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Quote
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Tue, 5 May 1998, GoldRushG wrote:
> I have a humble request. Could folks please stop quoting entire 10-page
> posts? Please take the time to edit the quote down to the very brief, relevant
> segment when replying. Thanks.
I have to agree. Several times I have deleted long posts because I
couldn't figure out where the newest bit of reply was. And reposting
several pages of stuff and adding just one line (like: 'I agree') is
pretty silly (and a bit rude).
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo saturn.nildram.co.uk from qts@nildram.co.uk server @saturn.nildram.co.uk ip 195.112.4.22
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "David Stallard" <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Cc: "Champions News Group" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Wed, 06 May 98 00:06:42
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Session length
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Tue, 5 May 1998 15:14:07 -0400, David Stallard wrote:
>I just wanted to get a general demographic to see how my group
>compares...I've become a little concerned that we get hung up on battles
>and don't accomplish much story. However, seeing that the big complaint
>from the Fuzion group is that 4E combat takes too long, maybe we're not
>unusual at all. Anyway, please answer these two short questions:
>
>1) How long, on average, do your Champions sessions run?
>2) How many combats occur during an average session?
>
>My answers:
>1) Five to six hours.
>2) Two.
For Fantasy Hero
1 - Highly varied, so an average isn't appropriate.
2 - An average of 1 fight per hour. I'm counting a tight sequence of
fights (eg reinforcements turning up) as one, though.
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 17:20:19 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Quote
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 11:49 PM 5/5/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>Received: (from majordom@localhost)
> by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA12881
> for champ-l-list; Tue, 5 May 1998 19:41:55 -0400 (EDT)
>X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to
owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
>Received: from access4.digex.net (root@localhost)
> by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA12872
> for <champ-l@sysabend.org&> Tue, 5 May 1998 19:41:51 -0400 (EDT)
>X-SMTP: helo access4.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server
ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access4.digex.net ip 205.197.245.195
>Received: from localhost (susano@localhost)
> by access4.digex.net (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP
> id TAA14444 for <champ-l@sysabend.org&> Tue, 5 May 1998 19:41:33 -0400
(EDT)
>Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 19:41:33 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
>cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
>Subject: Re: The Ultimate Quote
>In-Reply-To: <1e6322ec.354fa176@aol.com>
>Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.96.980505193939.9332E-100000@access4.digex.net>
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>Precedence: bulk
>
>On Tue, 5 May 1998, GoldRushG wrote:
>
>> I have a humble request. Could folks please stop quoting entire 10-page
>> posts? Please take the time to edit the quote down to the very brief,
relevant
>> segment when replying. Thanks.
>
>I have to agree. Several times I have deleted long posts because I
>couldn't figure out where the newest bit of reply was. And reposting
>several pages of stuff and adding just one line (like: 'I agree') is
>pretty silly (and a bit rude).
>
>***************************************************************************
>* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
>* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
>* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:
*
>* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
>* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
>* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
>***************************************************************************
>
>
>
I agree. ;-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 17:25:11 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Session length
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 07:23 PM 5/5/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote:
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Session length
>Cc: "Champions News Group" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
>
>I just wanted to get a general demographic to see how my group
>compares...I've become a little concerned that we get hung up on battles
>and don't accomplish much story. However, seeing that the big complaint
>from the Fuzion group is that 4E combat takes too long, maybe we're not
>unusual at all. Anyway, please answer these two short questions:
>
>1) How long, on average, do your Champions sessions run?
>2) How many combats occur during an average session?
>
>My answers:
>1) Five to six hours.
>2) Two.
The last group I was with tended to work around sessions of 6 hours,
occasionally as long as 8, with one or two small combats and one large
combat per session (so basically one and a half, or a bit more).
Of course, that's not counting Gene's New Year's Eve Meltdown, a
marathon session that always started at 6pm on New Year's Eve and continued
until 6am or when the GM's brain melted (whichever came first). I'm just
glad it wasn't Bob's New Year's Eve Meltdown!
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
From: dobrien@e-mail.com
X-SMTP: helo e-mail.com from dobrien@e-mail.com server @e-mail.com ip 204.146.168.195
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 20:58:57 EDT
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
X-Sender-Info: Dennis L. O'Brien
Consulting Systems Engineer
VM Systems Software 15863 (925) 675-5594
Subject: RE: Yet more supplement reviews
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>> Nope. It is written: Iron Crown Enterprises. Also, Mandlebrot gets 15
>> points of Psyc Lim for "Role Playing Gamer"(?)...
>Cool. We all get 15 more points to spend. ;-)
Great. I'll spend mine on:
5 Wealth
3 LS: Immune to Aging
3 LS: Immune to Disease
3 PRE 13
1 COM 12
Then I can pick up women, and not worry about catching anything.
Dennis
We are NationsBorg. You will be assimilated. Your uniqueness will be
added to our own. You will adapt to service Us. Resistance is futile.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo user1.cyberis.net from ctaylor@cyberis.net server qmailr@user1.cyberis.net ip 207.14.106.217
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 19:31:13 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: RE: Yet more supplement reviews
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 08:58 PM 5/5/98 EDT, you wrote:
>>> Nope. It is written: Iron Crown Enterprises. Also, Mandlebrot gets 15
>>> points of Psyc Lim for "Role Playing Gamer"(?)...
>>Cool. We all get 15 more points to spend. ;-)
>Great. I'll spend mine on:
> 5 Wealth
> 3 LS: Immune to Aging
> 3 LS: Immune to Disease
> 3 PRE 13
> 1 COM 12
>Then I can pick up women, and not worry about catching anything.
hmmm Id be damned good lookin with another 2 points of COM, but that bein
immortal thing is what ID like
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo mtigwc05.worldnet.att.net from kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net server @mtigwc05.worldnet.att.net ip 204.127.131.35
From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org&>
"Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: multiple defense layers
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 21:32:51 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin <griffin@txdirect.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: multiple defense layers
>At 01:17 PM 5/5/98 -0500, Marc Seebass wrote:
>>>>>>were the various group opinions on layering existing levels of DR, to
>>>>>>approach 100% without actually getting there? Three layers of 75%
DR,
>>>>>>each successive layer operating against damage that got through the
>>>>>>previous layer, would provide 98% DR...
>>>>
>>>>> > 100 pts - 75% DR = 25 pts
>>>>> > 25 pts - 75% DR = 6.25 pts
>>>>> > 6.25 pts - 75% DR = 1.5625 pts (rounds to 2 pts)
>>>>
>>>>I have bought that sort of, using two 14- layers of defense, so that you
>>>>have a good chance of it all working, but then... once in a while
>>hehehe...
>
>>In my opinion this type of defense should only be bought when limited to
one
>>type of special affect attack. For instance, a fire elemental might have
two
>>layers of damage reduction only vs. Fire, but an energy projector should
not
>>buy two layers of damage reduction for energy defense. It is far too
>>abusive.
>
>Ignoring for the moment the cost-benefit ratio, since that's not what you
>objected to, why is this abusive? If I wanted to buy three layers of 25%
>DR, for a net protection of 58% DR, I could do that for 30 points (again,
>for the moment ignore the fact that for 10 more points I could buy a single
>layer of 75% DR, and assume there's both a benefit to having it layered and
>something about the character construct that makes it appropriate). How is
>58% more abusive than 50% or 75%?
I think you missed the point here. I'm not talking about playing around with
the system to get weird multiples of Damage Reduction. That's just plain
ridiculous, because it makes for to much math and slows the game down. I'm
talking about using multiple layers to get more than 75% reduction.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Session length
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 05 May 1998 22:37:43 -0400
Lines: 36
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Bob Greenwade writes:
> The last group I was with tended to work around sessions of 6 hours,
> occasionally as long as 8, with one or two small combats and one large
> combat per session (so basically one and a half, or a bit more).
My group tends towards 5-6 hour sessions, occasionally going a bit longer.
> Of course, that's not counting Gene's New Year's Eve Meltdown, a
> marathon session that always started at 6pm on New Year's Eve and continued
> until 6am or when the GM's brain melted (whichever came first). I'm just
> glad it wasn't Bob's New Year's Eve Meltdown!
The longest Champions session I was involved in ran 28+ hours. It was the
culmination of the campaign, a combat involving three (or was it four?) PC
teams with their NPCs, a variety of villain teams and solo villains, and a
plethora of thugs. I think we managed three full Turns before the GM
decided to wing it.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNU/M9p6VRH7BJMxHAQGhXQP/cFhc6Pg1loAVEp93xyILnQVOZUZo22cB
Ptvf1d8bVJjhngsyp9QMQfMmX9+7fL6bZ7GiS0C1GB9Dya/iPO1Cg6jR+zz7GMXk
diF11BbL01U6oI27wjnEWZrGJaDrkBDZO6uwFc1Wsi4RYTfTK1Dr7q2nLggCH9GN
iy7AzQ7eXVY=
=zxKd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to
\ Earth, presumably from outer space.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo access2.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access2.digex.net ip 205.197.245.193
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 23:03:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Real World Stuff...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Ahem, so...
anyone have any idea...
how much your average I-beam weighs? (1 ton? 2?)
how tall a 20 Story building is? (200 feet?)
how fast a 1940 express train moved? (60 mph?)
Thanks.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 22:48:28 -0500
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: multiple defense layers
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 1
>>Ignoring for the moment the cost-benefit ratio, since that's not what you
>>objected to, why is this abusive? If I wanted to buy three layers of 25%
>>DR, for a net protection of 58% DR, I could do that for 30 points (again,
>>for the moment ignore the fact that for 10 more points I could buy a single
>>layer of 75% DR, and assume there's both a benefit to having it layered and
>>something about the character construct that makes it appropriate). How is
>>58% more abusive than 50% or 75%?
>I think you missed the point here. I'm not talking about playing around with
>the system to get weird multiples of Damage Reduction. That's just plain
>ridiculous, because it makes for to much math and slows the game down. I'm
>talking about using multiple layers to get more than 75% reduction.
Two applications of the same thing. Multiple layers of 25% gets you more
than 25%; multiple layers of 75% gets you more than 75%. If you take the
position that 75% should be the maximum allowable because it's the maximum
listed in the book, that's fine. Nothing wrong with that viewpoint. I
only brought this up at all because several people were already discussing
100% DR. It seemed possibly less 'abusive' (you may not have used that
word, but several people did) to combine existing levels of DR to approach,
but not quite reach, 100%, especially if it would be sufficiently costly to
discourage every third character from having it.
However, I have never used this and do not necessarily advocate its use
now. I did not imagine that this idea was original to me, but it was the
first time *I* had thought of it and I was soliciting group feedback on
what I guessed was a subject that had been covered already. Thank you for
your input.
Damon
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net from kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net server @mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net ip 204.127.131.33
From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net>
To: "Michael Surbrook" <susano@access.digex.net&>
"Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Real World Stuff...
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 23:03:13 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 3
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 10:07 PM
Subject: Real World Stuff...
>Ahem, so...
>
>anyone have any idea...
>
>how much your average I-beam weighs? (1 ton? 2?)
>
>how tall a 20 Story building is? (200 feet?)
>
>how fast a 1940 express train moved? (60 mph?)
>
>Thanks.
Wasn't it "Faster than a Speeding bullet, stronger than a locamotive. Able
to leap tall buildings in a single bound?"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hil-img-9.compuserve.com from morfhis@compuserve.com server @hil-img-9.compuserve.com ip 149.174.177.139
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 00:09:34 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: The Ultimate Quote
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Content-Disposition: inline
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id AAA29095
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 4
> Please take the time to edit the quote down to the very brief, relevant
> segment when replying. Thanks.
Thank you!! I wanted to say something about that, but I figured I'm still
new around here and I didn't know if that was accepted practice or not!
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo imo13.mx.aol.com from firelynx16@aol.com server @imo13.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.35
From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 00:57:04 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Lurking in web games
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 5
In a message dated 98-05-05 17:21:54 EDT, you write:
> I've been meaning to start reading through some campaign notes on the web,
> but don't want to spend countless hours finding something worthwhile. I
> don't necessarily want to check in on a regular basis to see what the group
> is up to...just a campaign history (turn-by-turn or more high level) would
> be an interesting read and could spawn all sorts of ideas. Can anybody on
> this list recommend any web sites where I can find something like this? It
> looks like Shelley Mactyre's site probably fits this bill, but as of yet I
> haven't had the time to sit down and read, read, read....
One of the best reads I've seen (and that's not just because I play in it) is
at...
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/guilfoyles/PBEM/HAPCC
Harrigan is a very talented writer, and you will also find a ton of background
information along with the story (game).
'Lynx
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo imo26.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo26.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.70
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 01:34:44 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Quote
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 6
<< I agree. ;-] >>
Okay. So Bob's being a smartass now. ;)
Mark @ GRG
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo imo29.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo29.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.73
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 02:54:06 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Quote
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 7
> Please take the time to edit the quote down to the very brief, relevant
> segment when replying. Thanks.
<< Thank you!! I wanted to say something about that, but I figured I'm still
new around here and I didn't know if that was accepted practice or not! >>
Why not. It was driving me nuts. And you demonstrated my suggestion
perfectly, btw! Kudos! <LOL>
Mark @ GRG
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo m7.sprynet.com from chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com server @m7.sprynet.com ip 165.121.2.64
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 00:51:15 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Quote
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 8
GoldRushG wrote:
> << I agree. ;-] >>
>
> Okay. So Bob's being a smartass now. ;)
>
> Mark @ GRG
You mean he just started?
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo access2.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access2.digex.net ip 205.197.245.193
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 07:36:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Real World Stuff...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 10
On Tue, 5 May 1998, Marc Seebass wrote:
> >Ahem, so...
> >
> >anyone have any idea...
> >
> >how much your average I-beam weighs? (1 ton? 2?)
> >
> >how tall a 20 Story building is? (200 feet?)
> >
> >how fast a 1940 express train moved? (60 mph?)
> >
> >Thanks.
> Wasn't it "Faster than a Speeding bullet, stronger than a locamotive. Able
> to leap tall buildings in a single bound?"
Depends on what you're using as a source material.
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: Yet more supplement reviews
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 08:48:56 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 11
"CityBorg" would work well here too.
BTW, I guess that means you live in the southeastern US?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dobrien@e-mail.com [SMTP:dobrien@e-mail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 8:59 PM
> To: hero-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: RE: Yet more supplement reviews
>
> Dennis
>
>
> We are NationsBorg. You will be assimilated. Your uniqueness will be
>
> added to our own. You will adapt to service Us. Resistance is futile.
>
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo emerald from kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65
From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net>
To: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: TK
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 09:20:14 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 12
According to my calculations for TK buy it's cost it should be fully
indirect, because the advantages and disadvantages add up to about the same
cost. STR Ranged, Fully inderect, doesn't affect secondary stats, the only
difference is that the end cost is slightly lower. Anyone else have an
oppinion on this?
----Marc "Kitsune" Seebass
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo arl-img-10.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @arl-img-10.compuserve.com ip 149.174.217.140
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 10:43:58 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Session length, part 2
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Content-Disposition: inline
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id KAA05473
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 13
Well, it looks like most people have 6-hour sessions with 2 combats (I
didn't calculate averages, this is just my observation). My question now
is how much of that 6-hour block is taken up conducting combat? In my
group, I'd say 4 hours out of 6 are combat resolution...I'm wondering if
we're combat heavy or if this is the norm.
The truth be told (and I hope this doesn't brand me a traitor), I'm trying
to decide if it would be worthwhile to switch to Fuzion. I was really
turned off by the rules when I glanced through them (inexcusable amount of
typos and missing sections, plus how can C:NM be a game for new players
when they explicitly tell you to build powers in 4E and then convert
over???), but the idea of faster combat is starting to appeal to me...I
just don't know if I want to suffer through all the errata and whatnot in
order to piece together an understanding of Fuzion.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo smtp2.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp2.erols.com ip 207.172.3.235
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 08:14:51 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
CC: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Real World Stuff...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Michael Surbrook wrote:
>
> Ahem, so...
>
> anyone have any idea...
>
> how much your average I-beam weighs? (1 ton? 2?)
I don't know, but I can back-of-the-envelope it:
Iron and steel have density about 8, which ~= 500 lbs/cubic foot.
IIRC, an I-beam has about 15% of the cross-section of a solid beam.
15% of 500 = 75
A small I-beam might be 1'x1'x20', so weight = 75x1x1x20=1500lbs
A giant I-beam could be 4'x4'x60', so weight = 75x4x4x60=72,000lbs
The above might not be very accurate, but it should be accurate enough
for game purposes and until someone comes up with an engineering
reference.
>
> how tall a 20 Story building is? (200 feet?)
A commercial building must allow for engineering spaces between the false
ceiling and the next floor, and generally have nine- or ten-foot false
ceilings to allow for moving equipment. As a rough approximation, I
allow 4m (2") per floor, making a 20 story building 40" = 80m tall.
>
> how fast a 1940 express train moved? (60 mph?)
The GG-1 locomotive, built in the 1930's, was rated for routine use over
80mph. The Northeast Corridor was layed out well before that date to
support 90mph speeds safely. Fast steam locomotives ran at comparable
speeds to the GG-1 on the corridor. On less-well-planned trackbed,
speeds of 60mph would be typical.
Typical express trains in the U.S. today run at much lower speeds because
of poor maintenance of way.
--
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 08:28:33 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Quote
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:34 AM 5/6/1998 EDT, GoldRushG wrote:
><< I agree. ;-] >>
>
> Okay. So Bob's being a smartass now. ;)
As opposed to...? :-]
Seriously, though, I do agree with everything that you and Michael have
posted on the topic. When I reply, I generally try to pare down the quoted
portion of the text down so that there's just enough that someone coming
into the conversation at that point can still understand what's being said.
And on a related subject, I tend to get confused by people who write
their replies at the top of their posts, and then show the quotes. I
understand that there are still a few mailers around (mostly primitive
DOS/Mac based BBS systems) that won't do it any other way. But if you can,
people, please put the new material *after* the quote.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 08:29:58 -0700
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: Yet more supplement reviews
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 08:48 AM 5/6/1998 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote:
>"CityBorg" would work well here too.
>
>BTW, I guess that means you live in the southeastern US?
>>
>> We are NationsBorg. You will be assimilated. Your uniqueness will be
>> added to our own. You will adapt to service Us. Resistance is futile.
Up until a couple of years ago "First Interstate Borg" would have worked
just fine.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo emerald from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 08:44:20 -0700
To: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@omg.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TK
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 09:20 AM 5/6/1998 -0500, Marc Seebass wrote:
>According to my calculations for TK buy it's cost it should be fully
>indirect, because the advantages and disadvantages add up to about the same
>cost. STR Ranged, Fully inderect, doesn't affect secondary stats, the only
>difference is that the end cost is slightly lower. Anyone else have an
>oppinion on this?
Per TUM, Psychokinesis (a form of TK bought BOECV, called PK for short)
has several "Indirect-like" effects such as line-of-sight targeting even
through transparent barriers. However, these rules are specific to PK; to
be truly Indirect, in fact, even PK has to buy the Indirect Advantage.
I think the reasoning behind giving TK a higher per-STR cost than
regular STR is to treat it like STR bought at Range, since TK has most of
the same abilities as STR but can be used at range. I think Rob Bell et al
lost sight of the fact that TK doesn't add to figured characteristics,
doesn't add to base STR, and has to pay extra for fine manipulation. Third
Edition (IIRC) payed 1:1 for TK, and I'd be comfortable (in fact, more
comfortable) with a reversion to that cost level.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo emerald from ajackson@iii.com server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 08:54:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: TK
To: Marc Seebass <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net>
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 14
Marc Seebass writes:
> According to my calculations for TK buy it's cost it should be fully
> indirect, because the advantages and disadvantages add up to about the same
> cost. STR Ranged, Fully inderect, doesn't affect secondary stats, the only
> difference is that the end cost is slightly lower. Anyone else have an
> oppinion on this?
> ----Marc "Kitsune" Seebass
>
Judge by active cost, not real cost. TK is strength at range.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo eamail1.unisys.com from andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com server @eamail1.unisys.com ip 192.61.103.80
From: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Real World Stuff...
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 11:07:01 -0500
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
X-Status:
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 15
>how much your average I-beam weighs? (1 ton? 2?)
Depends on type / size / length.
"Average" would be in the 1 ton range.
A heavy duty / long sky scraper one would be more.
>how tall a 20 Story building is? (200 feet?)
Yes, usually about 10 feet per story.
>how fast a 1940 express train moved? (60 mph?)
50 to 70. Much slower than today.
A "crappy" US one today can break 90.
Foreign ones can go 200 to 300.
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
- Joan of Arc's .sig
Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo proxy4.ba.best.com from james@javaman.to server root@proxy4.ba.best.com ip 206.184.139.15
From: "James Jandebeur" <james@javaman.to>
To: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Real World Stuff...
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 09:54:24 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>Wasn't it "Faster than a Speeding bullet, stronger than a locamotive. Able
>to leap tall buildings in a single bound?"
Quible: "More powerful than a locamotive."
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo eamail1.unisys.com from andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com server @eamail1.unisys.com ip 192.61.103.80
From: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: TK
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:04:22 -0500
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>According to my calculations for TK buy it's cost it should be
fully
>indirect, because the advantages and disadvantages add up to
about the same
>cost. STR Ranged, Fully inderect, doesn't affect secondary
stats, the only
>difference is that the end cost is slightly lower. Anyone else
have an
>oppinion on this?
>----Marc "Kitsune" Seebass
TK is overpriced. I lowered the cost in my game. The PC
can buy indirect on it if he/she wants. My TK is like this:
Telekinesis:
Works as stated except the cost is 12 points for 10 STR
TK, +5 STR for 6 points.
Fine manipulation is free. For a -1/4 limitation, the
TK has no fine manipulation
and cannot grab a target.
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
- Joan of Arc's .sig
Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo gwa.ericsson.com from exucurt@exu.ericsson.se server @gwa.ericsson.com ip 198.215.127.2
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:40:28 -0500 (CDT)
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: TK
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I had kind of assumed that TK was automatically indirect, although not
based on the pricing structure. What does everybody mean by 'indirect'
in this context ?
I suppose you can't use TK through a force wall, or something that's inside
something else, for example jewelry inside a case... What about tumblers
on a slot machine ?
Curt
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: TK
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 06 May 1998 14:14:53 -0400
Lines: 25
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Andreano, Keith HIM,VA writes:
> TK is overpriced. I lowered the cost in my game. The PC
> can buy indirect on it if he/she wants. My TK is like this:
Realistically, Strength is underpriced. Increase the cost of Strength to
~x2 and a lot of things stop being broken.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNVConJ6VRH7BJMxHAQGQkwQArP1WypsVIk3fyplSjofrfnJ/9ovn6tYn
dc4ySBOyDJg1nLTbBxxvOe/6NJeWKcTzTixXVkO+un1SLNTSKDOaavvUZA9B25wq
SdCoW1tdh0dBt4TxIvP4Q+++4Z+QSWnF1SVQHrRfSfGv0COdBWxXuUoPsVc1YBGU
sRfe93kL/Cg=
=21AL
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
\
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: TK
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 14:40:16 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I had one GM who figured that an NPC with TK and N-ray vision could look
inside your head and squeeze blood vessels shut to instantly kill you. We
suggested that since it's dark *inside* your brain, this wouldn't work. He
said he'd add UV-vision. We said its still *inside* your brain with all
it's gray matter pressed up against itself. We also brought up that even if
this were possible, it would cause a stroke, not instant death. He liked
his idea and wouldn't budge. We don't play with him anymore.
Jason Goode
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Curt Hicks [SMTP:exucurt@exu.ericsson.se]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 1:40 PM
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: RE: TK
>
>
>
> I had kind of assumed that TK was automatically indirect, although not
> based on the pricing structure. What does everybody mean by 'indirect'
> in this context ?
>
> I suppose you can't use TK through a force wall, or something that's
> inside
> something else, for example jewelry inside a case... What about tumblers
> on a slot machine ?
>
> Curt
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: TK
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 15:18:20 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Elaborate.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stainless Steel Rat [SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 2:15 PM
> To: Champions
> Subject: Re: TK
>
> Realistically, Strength is underpriced. Increase the cost of Strength to
> ~x2 and a lot of things stop being broken.
>
> --
> Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo geocities.com from filkhero@usa.net server @mail2.geocities.com ip 209.1.224.30
Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <hero-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:19:01 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Tuesday, May 05, 1998 5:58 PM, dobrien@e-mail.com wrote:
>
> >> Nope. It is written: Iron Crown Enterprises. Also, Mandlebrot gets
15
> >> points of Psyc Lim for "Role Playing Gamer"(?)...
>
> >Cool. We all get 15 more points to spend. ;-)
>
> Great. I'll spend mine on:
> 5 Wealth
> 3 LS: Immune to Aging
> 3 LS: Immune to Disease
> 3 PRE 13
> 1 COM 12
>
> Then I can pick up women, and not worry about catching anything.
>
You should have included seduction.:)
Filksinger
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo geocities.com from filkhero@usa.net server @mail2.geocities.com ip 209.1.224.30
Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Real World Stuff...
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:26:54 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>
> >Wasn't it "Faster than a Speeding bullet, stronger than a locamotive.
Able
> >to leap tall buildings in a single bound?"
>
>
> Quible: "More powerful than a locamotive."
>
Quibble: Quibble is spelled with two b's, and locomotive has no "a" in it.
Filksinger
"He who lives by the quibble...."
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo gwa.ericsson.com from exucurt@exu.ericsson.se server @gwa.ericsson.com ip 198.215.127.2
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 14:48:48 -0500 (CDT)
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: TK
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Please don't. I don't want to get into the whole "strength is too cheap"
discussion again. OTOH, if we **have** to get into it, maybe somebody can
just sum up the arguments on each side. Curt
> From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
>
> Elaborate.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Stainless Steel Rat [SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net]
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 2:15 PM
> > To: Champions
> > Subject: Re: TK
> >
> > Realistically, Strength is underpriced. Increase the cost of Strength to
> > ~x2 and a lot of things stop being broken.
> >
> > --
> > Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
>
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 12:49:21 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: TK
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:18 PM 5/6/1998 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote:
>Elaborate.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Stainless Steel Rat [SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net]
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 2:15 PM
>> To: Champions
>> Subject: Re: TK
>>
>> Realistically, Strength is underpriced. Increase the cost of Strength to
>> ~x2 and a lot of things stop being broken.
Oh, pleeeeeeeeeease not this garbage again...
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-SMTP: helo pentagon.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@pentagon.io.com ip 199.170.88.5
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 14:51:25 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: TK
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Wed, 6 May 1998, Goode, Jason wrote:
> Elaborate.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Stainless Steel Rat [SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net]
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 2:15 PM
> > To: Champions
> > Subject: Re: TK
> >
> > Realistically, Strength is underpriced. Increase the cost of Strength to
> > ~x2 and a lot of things stop being broken.
Let's see...
5 points of strength under the current system gives you:
* +1 DC ~ 4 pts
* +1 PD 1 pt
* +1 REC 2 pts
* +3 STUN 3 pts
* x2 lifting power ??? pts
It, like CON, is a really big point break.
(Apologies if the figures above are off, I'm at work and trying to do it
from memory.)
I think this is what SSR had in mind...
J
"One equal temper of heroic hearts, http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will jeffj@io.com
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." - Tennyson, "Ulysses"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo emerald from kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65
From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net>
To: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@omg.org&>
"Bob Greenwade" <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TK
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 15:01:38 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org>
Date: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: TK
>At 09:20 AM 5/6/1998 -0500, Marc Seebass wrote:
>>According to my calculations for TK buy it's cost it should be fully
>>indirect, because the advantages and disadvantages add up to about the
same
>>cost. STR Ranged, Fully inderect, doesn't affect secondary stats, the only
>>difference is that the end cost is slightly lower. Anyone else have an
>>oppinion on this?
>
> Per TUM, Psychokinesis (a form of TK bought BOECV, called PK for short)
>has several "Indirect-like" effects such as line-of-sight targeting even
>through transparent barriers. However, these rules are specific to PK; to
>be truly Indirect, in fact, even PK has to buy the Indirect Advantage.
> I think the reasoning behind giving TK a higher per-STR cost than
>regular STR is to treat it like STR bought at Range, since TK has most of
>the same abilities as STR but can be used at range. I think Rob Bell et al
>lost sight of the fact that TK doesn't add to figured characteristics,
>doesn't add to base STR, and has to pay extra for fine manipulation. Third
>Edition (IIRC) payed 1:1 for TK, and I'd be comfortable (in fact, more
>comfortable) with a reversion to that cost level.
If it were simply STR at Range, the 1/2 point ranged advantage would be
counteres by the doesn't affect secondary stats 1/2 limitation.
>
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo eamail1.unisys.com from andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com server @eamail1.unisys.com ip 192.61.103.80
From: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Yet more supplement reviews
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 15:09:19 -0500
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>> Great. I'll spend mine on:
>> 5 Wealth
>> 3 LS: Immune to Aging
>> 3 LS: Immune to Disease
>> 3 PRE 13
>> 1 COM 12
>>
>> Then I can pick up women, and not worry about catching
anything.
>You should have included seduction.:)
How About:
3 LS: Immune to Aging
3 LS: Immune to Disease
12 1D6-1 Major Transformation +1/2 cumulative +1/2 Invisible +1/2
Ranged
-1 Only vs. women: Target: woman, result: beautiful love slave!
^_^;
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
- Joan of Arc's .sig
Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: TK
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:23:47 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Sorry. Never heard it before. Just wondered what exactly he meant.
Jason Goode
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Curt Hicks [SMTP:exucurt@exu.ericsson.se]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 3:49 PM
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: RE: TK
>
>
> Please don't. I don't want to get into the whole "strength is too cheap"
> discussion again. OTOH, if we **have** to get into it, maybe somebody can
> just sum up the arguments on each side. Curt
>
>
> > From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
> >
> > Elaborate.
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Stainless Steel Rat [SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 2:15 PM
> > > To: Champions
> > > Subject: Re: TK
> > >
> > > Realistically, Strength is underpriced. Increase the cost of Strength
> to
> > > ~x2 and a lot of things stop being broken.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
> >
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: TK
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 06 May 1998 16:26:31 -0400
Lines: 25
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Goode, Jason writes:
> I had one GM who figured that an NPC with TK and N-ray vision could look
> inside your head and squeeze blood vessels shut to instantly kill you.
Um, no. TK cannot bypass personal defenses at all. This is an RKA with
some expensive advantages.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNVDHdZ6VRH7BJMxHAQEK/QP9HAxnvgWYDSTo19UUU+yUUnYW6fDMr9tc
/kxshpWQEdYSeSLugQJbWFs3cVzuk068EDS5bD4jx+XoHxnnaNEpveFV80eiQt/t
dBlTspGEfdoMmxKGjWiMP+/yHerKavcT4SLwK0nds4m9pARD500n3W/URMSzUwey
wD0dG144Svw=
=626k
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo emerald from jgoode@medrad.com server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: RE: TK
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:36:43 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Is this how you do it in your games? How does it work?
Jason Goode
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Greenwade [SMTP:bob.greenwade@klock.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 11:44 AM
> To: Champions Mailing List
> Subject: Re: TK
>
> I think the reasoning behind giving TK a higher per-STR cost than
> regular STR is to treat it like STR bought at Range, since TK has most of
> the same abilities as STR but can be used at range. I think Rob Bell et
> al
> lost sight of the fact that TK doesn't add to figured characteristics,
> doesn't add to base STR, and has to pay extra for fine manipulation.
> Third
> Edition (IIRC) payed 1:1 for TK, and I'd be comfortable (in fact, more
> comfortable) with a reversion to that cost level.
> ---
> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
> Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
> http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from filkhero@usa.net server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35
Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 13:41:48 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
>
> > Otherwise there is no mathematical difference, at least that I can
see,
> > between a one-handed weapon and a hand-and-a-half weapon used
exclusively
> > one-handed.
>
> The difference is that for a given Strength, a hand-and-a-half weapon can
> do more damage when wielded with two hands than with one, at the cost of
> not being able to do anything with the off hand because it is holding the
> weapon, too. If you never use two hands with the hand-and-a-half weapon,
> you will never get that extra damage. Either way, you are at a slight
> disadvantage when compared to "optimum".
Yes, you are at a disadvantage when compared to "optimum". You definitely
deserve a
Limitation in relation to "optimum".
What you get a Limitation in relation to is a one-handed weapon. Is the
one-handed
weapon "optimum"?
Filksinger
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from filkhero@usa.net server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35
Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 13:46:08 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Look, this is really very, very simple. You can do maximum damage. Or
you
> can use a shield for the DCV bonus. But you cannot do both at the same
time.
> The utility of the weapon is limited, not greatly but it *IS* limited.
Limited in relation to a one-handed weapon? You get the Limitation for a
hand and a half weapon, but not for one handed, so a one handed weapon
should be better than a hand and a half weapon. It isn't.
Filksinger
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo emerald from jgoode@medrad.com server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: RE: TK
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 17:01:23 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<Small aside to Bob about primitive mailers>
Look at that down there. See what happens when you try to put the reply
after the quote in MS Mail/MS Outlook?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marc Seebass [SMTP:kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 4:02 PM
> To: Champions Mailing List; Bob Greenwade
> Subject: Re: TK
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
> To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org>
> Date: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 2:40 PM
> Subject: Re: TK
>
>
> >At 09:20 AM 5/6/1998 -0500, Marc Seebass wrote:
> >>According to my calculations for TK buy it's cost it should be fully
> >>indirect, because the advantages and disadvantages add up to about the
> same
> >>cost. STR Ranged, Fully inderect, doesn't affect secondary stats, the
> only
> >>difference is that the end cost is slightly lower. Anyone else have an
> >>oppinion on this?
> >
> > Per TUM, Psychokinesis (a form of TK bought BOECV, called PK for
> short)
> >has several "Indirect-like" effects such as line-of-sight targeting even
> >through transparent barriers. However, these rules are specific to PK;
> to
> >be truly Indirect, in fact, even PK has to buy the Indirect Advantage.
> > I think the reasoning behind giving TK a higher per-STR cost than
> >regular STR is to treat it like STR bought at Range, since TK has most of
> >the same abilities as STR but can be used at range. I think Rob Bell et
> al
> >lost sight of the fact that TK doesn't add to figured characteristics,
> >doesn't add to base STR, and has to pay extra for fine manipulation.
> Third
> >Edition (IIRC) payed 1:1 for TK, and I'd be comfortable (in fact, more
> >comfortable) with a reversion to that cost level.
> If it were simply STR at Range, the 1/2 point ranged advantage would be
> counteres by the doesn't affect secondary stats 1/2 limitation.
> >
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from filkhero@usa.net server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35
Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 14:08:58 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Melinda and Steven Mitchell writes:
>
> > Only For Those Who Understand Why Weapon Hands Rules are Broken
>
> Okay, for the record I never said they were not broken. My entire
argument
> has been made under the supposition that they are not broken. Whether or
> not they are broken is an entirely different issue.
Well, the impression I get has been that everyone thinks they are broken,
and is trying to explain to you how. Since you are arguing on the
assumption that they are not broken, then that would certainly explain this
argument. If you are arguing to defend a broken mechanic on the assumption
that it is not broken, then people who don't know this will assume that you
simply do not understand.
If you agree that they are broken, please explain what you believe to be
broken about them, and how you would fix them.
Filksinger
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from filkhero@usa.net server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35
Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Bab 5 Hero: Races; Non-aligned worlds
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 14:14:31 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Dennis C Hwang <dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu>
>
<snip>
>
> Besides that, we know that one of their religious figures bears the name
> Droshalla, so the concept of individual monikers isn't completely unknown
> to them (although I suppose their use could be restricted).
Much like Niven's Kzinti.
"What is your name?"
"I have not earned my name yet. I am known for my profession, 'Speaker to
Animals'".
"Why did you not say your title in Kzinti? Was it intended to be an
insult?"
"Yes. I was angry."
"What are we supposed to do next?"
"Now we fight, or one of us apologizes."
Filksinger
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from filkhero@usa.net server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35
Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: DNPC appearances
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 14:17:23 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
>
> What are some ways that DNPCs make appearances in your group? When the
> villains attack some public place, do they just happen to be at that
public
> place? It seems that using this too much would be a bad thing...the PCs
> would learn to always scout for DNPCs before going after the villains.
Are
> their appearances ever as minor as just a quick phone call or something
> similar (strictly role-playing), or are they usually used as an added
> factor in a combat situation?
I've done both. They should be a complication, but often I use them simply
as a role-playing complication, such as a character worrying about his/her
sick child.
Filksinger
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo emerald from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 15:23:35 -0700
To: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@omg.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: TK
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:01 PM 5/6/1998 -0500, Marc Seebass wrote:
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
>To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org>
>Date: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 2:40 PM
>Subject: Re: TK
>
>>At 09:20 AM 5/6/1998 -0500, Marc Seebass wrote:
>>>According to my calculations for TK buy it's cost it should be fully
>>>indirect, because the advantages and disadvantages add up to about the
>same
>>>cost. STR Ranged, Fully inderect, doesn't affect secondary stats, the only
>>>difference is that the end cost is slightly lower. Anyone else have an
>>>oppinion on this?
>>
>> Per TUM, Psychokinesis (a form of TK bought BOECV, called PK for short)
>>has several "Indirect-like" effects such as line-of-sight targeting even
>>through transparent barriers. However, these rules are specific to PK; to
>>be truly Indirect, in fact, even PK has to buy the Indirect Advantage.
>> I think the reasoning behind giving TK a higher per-STR cost than
>>regular STR is to treat it like STR bought at Range, since TK has most of
>>the same abilities as STR but can be used at range. I think Rob Bell et al
>>lost sight of the fact that TK doesn't add to figured characteristics,
>>doesn't add to base STR, and has to pay extra for fine manipulation. Third
>>Edition (IIRC) payed 1:1 for TK, and I'd be comfortable (in fact, more
>>comfortable) with a reversion to that cost level.
>If it were simply STR at Range, the 1/2 point ranged advantage would be
>counteres by the doesn't affect secondary stats 1/2 limitation.
What I'm saying is that's how it *should* be, but that consideration
wasn't taken into account. Maybe it will be for Hero5. (Big maybe there.)
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo emerald from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 15:28:38 -0700
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: TK
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 05:01 PM 5/6/1998 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote:
><Small aside to Bob about primitive mailers>
>Look at that down there. See what happens when you try to put the reply
>after the quote in MS Mail/MS Outlook?
Um... actually, I don't see anything wrong in there, except maybe the
lack of separating blank lines (a much lesser problem, at least for me,
than having to read backwards).
(I'm leaving the whole rest of the quote in here so if I missed
something you can point it out to me.)
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Marc Seebass [SMTP:kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net]
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 4:02 PM
>> To: Champions Mailing List; Bob Greenwade
>> Subject: Re: TK
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
>> To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org>
>> Date: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 2:40 PM
>> Subject: Re: TK
>>
>>
>> >At 09:20 AM 5/6/1998 -0500, Marc Seebass wrote:
>> >>According to my calculations for TK buy it's cost it should be fully
>> >>indirect, because the advantages and disadvantages add up to about the
>> same
>> >>cost. STR Ranged, Fully inderect, doesn't affect secondary stats, the
>> only
>> >>difference is that the end cost is slightly lower. Anyone else have an
>> >>oppinion on this?
>> >
>> > Per TUM, Psychokinesis (a form of TK bought BOECV, called PK for
>> short)
>> >has several "Indirect-like" effects such as line-of-sight targeting even
>> >through transparent barriers. However, these rules are specific to PK;
>> to
>> >be truly Indirect, in fact, even PK has to buy the Indirect Advantage.
>> > I think the reasoning behind giving TK a higher per-STR cost than
>> >regular STR is to treat it like STR bought at Range, since TK has most of
>> >the same abilities as STR but can be used at range. I think Rob Bell et
>> al
>> >lost sight of the fact that TK doesn't add to figured characteristics,
>> >doesn't add to base STR, and has to pay extra for fine manipulation.
>> Third
>> >Edition (IIRC) payed 1:1 for TK, and I'd be comfortable (in fact, more
>> >comfortable) with a reversion to that cost level.
>> If it were simply STR at Range, the 1/2 point ranged advantage would be
>> counteres by the doesn't affect secondary stats 1/2 limitation.
>> >
>
>
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo geocities.com from filkhero@usa.net server @mail3.geocities.com ip 209.1.224.23
Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 15:32:01 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> From: Andreano, Keith HIM,VA <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
<snip>
> >You should have included seduction.:)
>
> How About:
> 3 LS: Immune to Aging
>
> 3 LS: Immune to Disease
>
> 12 1D6-1 Major Transformation +1/2 cumulative +1/2 Invisible +1/2
> Ranged
> -1 Only vs. women: Target: woman, result: beautiful love slave!
Sounds interesting, in a fantasy sort of way. Of course, if you really had
that power and used it, I would be forced to hunt you down and kill you.:)
Filksinger
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo emerald from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 15:33:37 -0700
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: RE: TK
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 04:36 PM 5/6/1998 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote:
>Is this how you do it in your games? How does it work?
So far nobody in my game has TK, other than NPCs (and I'm using the
strictly published versions since what I'm doing is supposed to be a
playtest as much as a fun game). However, under 5th Edition I may very
well do it this way. (Or not. I don't really think it's *that* big of an
issue, to tell the truth, except that I am finding that TK users tend to
come out a lot less powerful than other characters unless they have
Multipowers and such.)
Basically, this would be 10 pts for 10 STR Telekinesis, +1 point per +1
STR, +10 points (or maybe +1/4 Advantage) for Fine Manipulation.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Bob Greenwade [SMTP:bob.greenwade@klock.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 11:44 AM
>> To: Champions Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: TK
>>
>> I think the reasoning behind giving TK a higher per-STR cost than
>> regular STR is to treat it like STR bought at Range, since TK has most of
>> the same abilities as STR but can be used at range. I think Rob Bell et
>> al
>> lost sight of the fact that TK doesn't add to figured characteristics,
>> doesn't add to base STR, and has to pay extra for fine manipulation.
>> Third
>> Edition (IIRC) payed 1:1 for TK, and I'd be comfortable (in fact, more
>> comfortable) with a reversion to that cost level.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo id.sedl.org from tsang@id.sedl.org server tsang@id.sedl.org ip 198.213.9.2
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 18:13:48 -0500
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I figure this is no dumber than arguing about how much STR should cost...
You have 15 extra points, because you're an RPG player... now go spend it.
Caveats: no more than -1 limitation total on powers, no frameworks, and
you do have "Normal Charactersitics Maxima".
Donald
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo vega.iii.com from ajackson@iii.com server @vega.iii.com ip 192.33.187.51
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:29:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
To: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Lizard writes:
> At 06:13 PM 5/6/98 -0500, Donald Tsang wrote:
> >I figure this is no dumber than arguing about how much STR should cost...
> >
> >You have 15 extra points, because you're an RPG player... now go spend it.
> >Caveats: no more than -1 limitation total on powers, no frameworks, and
> > you do have "Normal Charactersitics Maxima".
> >
> 10 points of Immune to Aging, 5 points for 1d6 of luck.
>
Immune to aging is only 3 points. I favor immune to aging (3 pts), immune to
disease (-1/2: can catch diseases, but always recovers quickly and fully), and
10 points left for luck or wealth.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo mail1.geo.net from lizard@dnai.com server @mail1.geo.net ip 166.90.101.11
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 16:33:59 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 06:13 PM 5/6/98 -0500, Donald Tsang wrote:
>I figure this is no dumber than arguing about how much STR should cost...
>
>You have 15 extra points, because you're an RPG player... now go spend it.
>Caveats: no more than -1 limitation total on powers, no frameworks, and
> you do have "Normal Charactersitics Maxima".
>
10 points of Immune to Aging, 5 points for 1d6 of luck.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo mason2.gmu.edu from wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu server @mason2.gmu.edu ip 129.174.1.11
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 19:36:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: William K Bushway <wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu>
X-Sender: wbushway@mason2.gmu.edu
To: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net>
cc: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Wed, 6 May 1998, Filksinger wrote:
> > From: Andreano, Keith HIM,VA <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
> > 12 1D6-1 Major Transformation +1/2 cumulative +1/2 Invisible +1/2
> > Ranged -1 Only vs. women: Target: woman, result: beautiful love slave!
>
> Sounds interesting, in a fantasy sort of way. Of course, if you really had
> that power and used it, I would be forced to hunt you down and kill you.:)
>
> Filksinger
Hmmm...
15 Hunted: Filksinger (AsPow, 11-)
That's another 15 points. With that, you could buy 25% resistant
damage reduction...
William K. Bushway, wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu
http://Mason.GMU.edu/~wbushway/index.html
"I'm betting that I'm just abnormal enough to survive."
-The Tick, The Tick Vs.The Breadmaster
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo mars.superlink.net from why@superlink.net server root@mars.superlink.net ip 204.97.220.9
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 20:05:05 -0400
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Re: Yet more supplement reviews
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 07:36 PM 5/6/98 -0400, William K Bushway wrote:
>On Wed, 6 May 1998, Filksinger wrote:
>> > 12 1D6-1 Major Transformation +1/2 cumulative +1/2 Invisible +1/2
>> > Ranged -1 Only vs. women: Target: woman, result: beautiful love slave!
>> Sounds interesting, in a fantasy sort of way. Of course, if you really had
>> that power and used it, I would be forced to hunt you down and kill you.:)
> Hmmm...
>15 Hunted: Filksinger (AsPow, 11-)
Except its only worth 10 Hunted: Filksinger (LessPow, 11-) since Filksinger
did not get the additional 15 (10) points for a hunted. And then there's
the Limited Area part, we don't know how far apart they are.
Joe
(I can't believe I continued that.)
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo arl-img-3.compuserve.com from morfhis@compuserve.com server @arl-img-3.compuserve.com ip 149.174.217.133
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 20:41:01 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Content-Disposition: inline
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id UAA17028
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> > 10 points of Immune to Aging, 5 points for 1d6 of luck.
> >
> Immune to aging is only 3 points.
Maybe he put LOTS of levels of Difficult to Dispel on it? ;-)
Personally, I would buy Flight. No question. Nothing else even comes close.
I MIGHT even apply the (-1/2 Lim - Wings), just cause I would love the
stares I would draw!
BTW, Donald -- great question!
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo arl-img-6.compuserve.com from morfhis@compuserve.com server @arl-img-6.compuserve.com ip 149.174.217.136
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 20:41:10 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: RE: TK
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Content-Disposition: inline
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id BAA07538
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Third
> Edition (IIRC) payed 1:1 for TK, and I'd be comfortable (in fact, more
> comfortable) with a reversion to that cost level.
As would I. One of the annoying things about when 4th came out, and the
task of translating existing characters to the new rules began, was the
fact that the active cost for Telekinesis (and Flash, for that matter) was
so different. We were faced with choosing between reducing the STR of the
TK to reflect the new cost (hard to take when your 50 STR TK suddenly was
only 33 STR) or increasing the points to the appropriate cost (awkward if
the TK was in a Multipower, as it almost invariably was). In my game(s),
the lower STR usually won out.
As for the question of whether it's Indirect, I've always run it as
pseudo-indirect -- I can't go through barriers, although it can go around
corners to a certain extent and it can manipulate internal mechanisms to
objects (assuming it has Fine Work). I'm not claiming this is the
"official" interpretation, just mine.
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo out2.ibm.net from john.desmarais@ibm.net server @out2.ibm.net ip 165.87.194.229
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 20:50:19 -0400
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Wed, 6 May 1998 18:13:48 -0500, Donald Tsang wrote:
>I figure this is no dumber than arguing about how much STR should cost...
>
>You have 15 extra points, because you're an RPG player... now go spend it.
>Caveats: no more than -1 limitation total on powers, no frameworks, and
> you do have "Normal Charactersitics Maxima".
>
> Donald
>
It's not particularly useful or efficient, but even with so few points in it, flying would just be
to cool. 7.5"? Ok, 7", I'll spend the remaining 1 point on an international drivers licence
(ya never know, it could be useful).
-=>John D.
[10 STR TK came in as a close second in my mind]
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo out2.ibm.net from john.desmarais@ibm.net server @out2.ibm.net ip 165.87.194.229
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 20:55:12 -0400
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Subject: Primitive Mailers (was: RE: TK)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Wed, 6 May 1998 17:01:23 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote:
><Small aside to Bob about primitive mailers>
>Look at that down there. See what happens when you try to put the reply
>after the quote in MS Mail/MS Outlook?
For what's it's worth, you can download a plug-in for Outlook from Microsloth that makes
it somewhat more "internet mail" friendly (handles quoting in replies more the way you
would expect a mailer to, with a user definable symbol at the start of the quoted line and
your new text starting beneath it).
-=>John D.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo imo21.mx.aol.com from erolb1@aol.com server @imo21.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.65
From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 21:09:38 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
In a message dated 98-05-06 19:16:35 EDT, tsang@sedl.org writes:
> You have 15 extra points, because you're an RPG player... now go spend it.
> Caveats: no more than -1 limitation total on powers, no frameworks, and
> you do have "Normal Charactersitics Maxima".
My first though was to spend it all on 15 pts of Wealth. But on reading some
of the other replies (especially Lizard's) I think I'd go with 5 pts on
Wealth, 5 pts on Luck, 3 pts on LS: Immune to Aging, and LS: Immune to Disease
(the last bought with the -1/2 limitation "Gets sick but gets better" to bring
the cost down to 2 pts).
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo imo26.mx.aol.com from erolb1@aol.com server @imo26.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.70
From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 21:34:39 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Another idea: Extra-Dimensional Movement with 4x mass to some suitably cool
and optimistic alternate world (my first thought was for L Neil Smith's world
of *The Probability Broche*) 30 active pts. -1 limitation: Extra Time (1
turn). 15 real points.
Erol K. Bayburt
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 06 May 1998 22:18:34 -0400
Lines: 24
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Donald Tsang writes:
> You have 15 extra points, because you're an RPG player... now go spend it.
Since I'm being cheezy for the points... contacts, contacts, contacts,
maybe some Luck.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNVEZ956VRH7BJMxHAQFysQP/Tw0gtycXPKRzreNOZQKrAIfzmepa7sID
RwrKVwQityT0FrzdQLkdr1+T9W0FUSyl05snOGDs7gJSOTn0RtDtP7a5ci6oxVlW
++Kmi5WsWT3MH3vmUlbCyEcFlWTgRNssdyzzer2oJYPyISpN5OpugjFYWyhacofp
Ay6dNLOaNHk=
=21SU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from filkhero@usa.net server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35
Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 19:22:41 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Filksinger writes:
>
> > Well, the impression I get has been that everyone thinks they are
broken,
> > and is trying to explain to you how.
>
> Funny, I don't. I just see a bunch of people, yourself included, saying
> "you're wrong" with varying degree of insult.
If 1 1/2 handed weapons get a Limitation they shouldn't, then they are
"broken". If you say they should get the Limitation, then arguing that they
shouldn't is arguing in favor of their being broken.
You may argue that that is not the way that they are broken, but our
argument is still that they are broken in that way.
> I see people treating handedness as a Strength Min modifier. If you do
> that, then yes, it seems broken. But handedness is not a Strength Min
> modifier, it is a "what you are capable of doing while using the power"
> modifier.
Very well.
With a 1 handed weapon, I am capable of using the weapon with a shield.
With a 1 1/2 handed weapon, I am capable of using the weapon with a shield
_and_ capable of ditching the shield for other benefits unavailable to a 1
handed weapon.
Are there things you are capable of doing with a 1 handed weapon that you
cannot do with a 1 1/2 handed weapon?
Filksinger
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from filkhero@usa.net server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35
Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 19:23:38 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Filksinger writes:
>
> > Yes, you are at a disadvantage when compared to "optimum". You
definitely
> > deserve a Limitation in relation to "optimum".
>
> Yeah. Considering that "optimum" is the baseline Hero is working from,
if
> you are at a disadvantage compared to that, you get a bonus for it. If
you
> are at an advantage compared to that you pay points for it. That is the
> way Hero works.
Optimum is the baseline? You consider a 1-handed weapon "optimum"? The 1
handed weapon is the baseline here.
Filksinger
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from filkhero@usa.net server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35
Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Question
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 19:34:11 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
<snip>
> Yeah, voluntarilly reducing one's DCV by 1 to 3 is in no way a reduction.
> Sure, I understand, now. It makes perfect sense.
I don't. Could you please tell me if you know of any other Limitation,
anywhere in the Hero System, that a character _volunteers_ to have, and
unless he does volunteer to have the Limitation, does nothing? I thought
Limitations which were based upon conditions the character has under
control were worth no points. Certainly whether or not he uses two hands is
under the player's control.
Filksinger
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo sowest.sowest.net from rambler@sowest.net server @sowest.net ip 205.214.33.158
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 18:46:29 -0800
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Eric Chaves <rambler@sowest.net>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>It's not particularly useful or efficient, but even with so few points in
>it, flying would just be
>to cool. 7.5"? Ok, 7", I'll spend the remaining 1 point on an
>international drivers licence
>(ya never know, it could be useful).
I'd buy 15pts. of wealth. Hey with that much money, who needs a driver's
license. :->
Geek Code
****************************************************************************
GCS d++ H s:+ !g !p au+ a- w++ v++ C++++ UL+ P? L+ 3- E? N+++ K- W--- M++ !V
po--- Y+ t++ 5 j R++ G'' tv++ b++ D++ B--- e- u** h+ f+ r n+ y**
****************************************************************************
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from filkhero@usa.net server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35
Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Weapon Hands Questions
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 20:02:00 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
<snip>
>
> Take a character with a 16 Strength, CV 5. Give him a bastard sword:
> 1.5D6K (25AP), 1.5 hands, 13 STR min, and a medium shield: +2 DCV (10AP).
> With one hand on the sword he does 1.5D6K and has a +2 DCV bonus (35AP).
> With two hands on the sword he does 2D6K (30AP) and gets no DCV bonus.
>
> Now, if my math is even vaguely on target, 30 active points is not
> identical to 35 active points. And unless I am completely off, 30 active
> points is less than 35 active points.
>
> So tell me, where is the advantage in *REDUCING* one's ability?
Why, I suppose none. So, I ignore that ability, and I have a weapon
identical to the 1 handed weapon.
The 1 1/2 handed weapon is limited _if_ I use it with 2 hands. Agreed.
However, it has two modes, and this limitation only applies if I choose to
use the second one. Thus, I have a weapon that has _all_ of the abilities
of a 1 handed weapon, plus a limited mode I _choose_ to use. The second,
limited mode may deserve a Limitation, the first, 1 handed mode does not
deserve a limitation vis a vis one handed weapons.
Filksinger
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from filkhero@usa.net server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35
Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 20:06:18 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
>
<snip>
> "The point of the power is that the wall WILL [emphasis *NOT* mine --Rat]
> take collateral damage". That is not Clinging, that is a power that does
> damage. Perhaps not much, but enough to be noticeable.
No, it isn't a power that does damage. Its the logical effects of a power
which causes stress to be placed upon the wall if you are pulled or knocked
free from it.
If I put my hand against a wall, turn on Clinging, and pull, and my STR is
great enough, I will damage the wall.
Filksinger
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo mars.superlink.net from why@superlink.net server root@mars.superlink.net ip 204.97.220.9
X-Sender: why@mail.superlink.net
Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 23:20:01 -0400
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
Subject: Point Balancing (was Re: Desolidification)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I'm sorry to pick at the scab of this debate, but I think I see what was
left out of the debate.
Most of the people for 100% DR are the kind of Hero players who feel that
point costs for all characters (players) must balance. This means you need
a number which allows Invulnerability so that numbers can be "balanced".
OTOH, those against 100% DR are the kind who will allow a character have
"extra" points if they need it to create the character concept. These GMs
would allow an extra 30 or 40 PD/ED along with 75% DR since it would be
good enough and where it isn't the GM can always hand wave it.
I don't know if this is true. I think the group believing that equal
points maintains balance is the majority here and they would feel the need
for a power which gets around the normal point costs for defenses.
That said, I just finish reading those other posts. I can't believe no one
on the 100% DR side did not bring up Penetrating, Armor Piercing or
Coordinated Attacks against the "Just use enough normal defenses with 75%
DR" side.
Oh, well. I'll just tape the band-aid back down again.
Joe
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-SMTP: helo dillinger.io.com from traveler@io.com server traveler@dillinger.io.com ip 199.170.88.11
X-Authentication-Warning: dillinger.io.com: traveler owned process doing -bs
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 22:44:44 -0500 (CDT)
From: Dataweaver <traveler@io.com>
To: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Point Balancing (was Re: Desolidification)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Wed, 6 May 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote:
> I'm sorry to pick at the scab of this debate, but I think I see what was
> left out of the debate.
>
> Most of the people for 100% DR are the kind of Hero players who feel
> that point costs for all characters (players) must balance. This means
> you need a number which allows Invulnerability so that numbers can be
> "balanced".
Actually, no; I'm firmly in the pro-Invulnerability camp, _and_ I will
allow a character to have extra points if they are needed to create a
valid character concept.
> OTOH, those against 100% DR are the kind who will allow a character have
> "extra" points if they need it to create the character concept. These
> GMs would allow an extra 30 or 40 PD/ED along with 75% DR since it would
> be good enough and where it isn't the GM can always hand wave it.
>
> I don't know if this is true. I think the group believing that equal
> points maintains balance is the majority here and they would feel the
> need for a power which gets around the normal point costs for defenses.
Actually, I feel a need for a power that represents a character who simply
_cannot_ be hurt by a certain kind of attack; under the current setup,
such an ability isn't prohibitively expensive - it's impossible. There
are those who feel that this is the way that things should be. But there
are also a large number of GMs out there who want something like this.
Hero has two solutions available to them - they can include a form of
invulnerability, in which case those who don't like it can ignore it and
those who do like it can use it; or they can exclude invulnerability, in
which case those who don't like it are unaffected, but those who do like
it are left to their own devices.
---- Jonathan Lang <traveler@io.com> ---- x ------- alias: Dataweaver ---------
Webpage: http://www.io.com/~traveler /@\ The Dogma of Otherness insists
GURPSnet's Benevolent Tyrant for Life ~~~ that all voices deserve a hearing,
FAQ: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet/www | that all points of view have
Archive: http://www.io.com/~ftp/GURPSnet | something of value to offer.
submit new files to gurpsnet-files@io.com | --David Brin, "Otherness"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo haleakala.aloha.net from til_e@aloha.net server root@haleakala.aloha.net ip 204.94.112.33
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 18:34:29 -1000 (HST)
To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
From: Til Eulenspiegel <til_e@aloha.net>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 20:50 -0400 06 05 98, John Desmarais wrote:
>On Wed, 6 May 1998 18:13:48 -0500, Donald Tsang wrote:
>
>>I figure this is no dumber than arguing about how much STR should cost...
>>
>>You have 15 extra points, because you're an RPG player... now go spend it.
>>Caveats: no more than -1 limitation total on powers, no frameworks, and
>> you do have "Normal Charactersitics Maxima".
>>
>> Donald
>>
>
>It's not particularly useful or efficient, but even with so few points in
>it, flying would just be
>to cool. 7.5"? Ok, 7", I'll spend the remaining 1 point on an
>international drivers licence
>(ya never know, it could be useful).
I'd have to go with LS: Immune to Aging and the remainder in Flight--it's
just so cool.
Til Eulenspiegel
<til_e@aloha.net&> <til_e@hotmail.com>
Sometimes the delete key is your best friend.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo camel14.mindspring.com from boaters@mindspring.com server @camel14.mindspring.com ip 207.69.200.64
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 00:36:11 -0400
From: boaters <boaters@mindspring.com>
To: champs mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Donald Tsang writes:
>
> > You have 15 extra points, because you're an RPG player... now go spend it.
>
3 immune to aging
10pt. skill pool
2.pt cc (only ks skills-1)
Knowledge about everything would be fun...
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
From: dobrien@e-mail.com
X-SMTP: helo e-mail.com from dobrien@e-mail.com server @e-mail.com ip 204.146.168.195
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 00:52:40 EDT
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
X-Sender-Info: Dennis L. O'Brien
Consulting Systems Engineer
VM Systems Software 15863 (925) 675-5594
Subject: Borg sigs (was RE: Yet more supplement reviews)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>"CityBorg" would work well here too.
>
>BTW, I guess that means you live in the southeastern US?
>> -----Original Message-----
>> We are NationsBorg. You will be assimilated. Your uniqueness will be
>>
>> added to our own. You will adapt to service Us. Resistance is futile.
Actually, I live in California, and work for Bank of America.
Dennis
"When I was little, I used to be even smaller than I am now" -- Hugh
McColl, Jr. (CEO of NationsBank)
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo emerald from icepirat@ix.netcom.com server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 07:36:28 +0000
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: Re: TK
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Bob Greenwade wrote:
>
> At 05:01 PM 5/6/1998 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote:
> ><Small aside to Bob about primitive mailers>
> >Look at that down there. See what happens when you try to put the reply
> >after the quote in MS Mail/MS Outlook?
>
> Um... actually, I don't see anything wrong in there, except maybe the
> lack of separating blank lines (a much lesser problem, at least for me,
> than having to read backwards).
> (I'm leaving the whole rest of the quote in here so if I missed
> something you can point it out to me.)
I could vent far longer at MS Mail and Outlook, but I don't think this list
would be the place to do it. I'm with Bob in that I prefer to see the answer
at the end of a quote, but can deal with it being at the top. It's just once
the thread starts, the trend should continue.
TK Related: I preferred the 3rd Edition way as well. You couldn't squeeze or
punch with it, but the active points seemed to make more sense. Even if with
4th, it equals Str plus range.
-Mark Lemming
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com from icepirat@ix.netcom.com server @dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com ip 206.214.98.13
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 07:47:15 +0000
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Donald Tsang wrote:
>
> I figure this is no dumber than arguing about how much STR should cost...
>
> You have 15 extra points, because you're an RPG player... now go spend it.
> Caveats: no more than -1 limitation total on powers, no frameworks, and
> you do have "Normal Charactersitics Maxima".
>
> Donald
3 LS: Immune to Disease
8 Regen, 1 body/ minute (Not sure if that's the 1/4 limitation for time)
3 Pain Resistance
1 +1 PD
This would of come in very handy during my accident prone years.
(And I'm not sure if I'm past them yet...)
-Mark Lemming
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo smtp3.teleport.com from miq@teleport.com server @smtp3.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.5
From: Miq Millman <miq@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
To: icepirat@ix.netcom.com (Mark Lemming)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 01:34:09 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Mark Lemming says:
>
> Donald Tsang wrote:
> >
> > I figure this is no dumber than arguing about how much STR should cost...
> >
> > You have 15 extra points, because you're an RPG player... now go spend it.
> > Caveats: no more than -1 limitation total on powers, no frameworks, and
> > you do have "Normal Charactersitics Maxima".
> >
> > Donald
>
> 3 LS: Immune to Disease
> 8 Regen, 1 body/ minute (Not sure if that's the 1/4 limitation for time)
> 3 Pain Resistance
> 1 +1 PD
>
> This would of come in very handy during my accident prone years.
> (And I'm not sure if I'm past them yet...)
Heh, no living forever? I agree it could get boring, and difficult to deal
with if you remained the same age all the time, plus everyone you know
getting older, ick.
My choice:
LS: vs Sleep, to give me more time in the day
LS: Disease, this is a pretty obvious one. who wants to get the plague?
some TK, w/ fine manip, limited to animate object, think how useful that can
be to work on old cars or fix things, or do interesting tricks....
--
__
Miq Millman miq@teleport.com
Tualatin, OR
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo iquest3.iquest.net from bastet@iquest.net server @iquest3.iquest.net ip 209.43.20.203
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 03:38:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net>
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7
To: bastet@iquest.net
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Thu, 7 May 1998, Miq Millman wrote:
> Heh, no living forever? I agree it could get boring, and difficult to deal
> with if you remained the same age all the time, plus everyone you know
> getting older, ick.
>
> My choice:
>
>
> LS: vs Sleep, to give me more time in the day
> LS: Disease, this is a pretty obvious one. who wants to get the plague?
> some TK, w/ fine manip, limited to animate object, think how useful that can
> be to work on old cars or fix things, or do interesting tricks....
I'm surprised no one has used Shapeshift yet. Say.....Shapeshift to any
form, requires disguise roll. Then add the traditional LS: Aging and LS:
Disease (Gets sick, gets better). Shapeshift is another fun power.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from cptspith@teleport.com server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 01:49:36 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Jeff M. Reid wrote:
> Personally, I would buy Flight. No question. Nothing else even comes close.
> I MIGHT even apply the (-1/2 Lim - Wings), just cause I would love the
> stares I would draw!
A kindred spirit! On a number of occasions the question of 'what
power would you take' has reared it's head, and after all the hemming
and 'oh, it would be COOL to be invisible', and 'how about reading
minds?', it all comes down to;
I WANNA FLY!
I think wings would be excellent, and just to maximize our cost
return, and stay within The Rules, add X2 END for another -1/2 lim.
That'd give 15" flight (30" noncombat), and heck with enough use, my END
would increase anyway, eventually...
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo endeavor.flash.net from bswarren@flash.net server @endeavor.flash.net ip 209.30.0.40
From: "R & B" <bswarren@flash.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 04:15:39 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>You have 15 extra points, because you're an RPG player... now go spend it.
>Caveats: no more than -1 limitation total on powers, no frameworks, and
> you do have "Normal Charactersitics Maxima".
LS: No need to eat, sleep, or drink
LS: Immune to disease
Buy off the Phy Limitation 'Bum Knee'
While I'm doing a re-write could I add the Psych Lim: 'Loves to exercise?
Randy
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo post.mail.demon.net from chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk server @post-12.mail.demon.net ip 194.217.242.41
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 11:59:20 +0100
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Point Balancing (was Re: Desolidification)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
If the proposed cost for the 100% resistant DR is 120 points (so 240 for
both energy and physical) it must be remembered that this is a LOT of
points.
If you wanted to build a new 150 point character with this sort of
power; for example an immortal entity from Earths distant past; you
would be on -90 points after buying the DR. This is before you buy any
stats, skills, other powers, equipment or perks. You could easily end up
with a character who is normal in all other respects other than being
invulnerable to normal forms of attack. I know that this is rehashing
what has already been said, but this is a pretty good roleplaying
opportunity. Imagine a superhero team composed of bricks etc. who can
move mountains blah blah. Amongst there number stands Mr.Invulnerable.
He ca't fly, so he has to be carried. He can't hurt most of the villians
the group faces. He has no useful out of combat skills. He has no
contacts. He doesn't even have a base the group can use. However, at the
end of every fight.. who is the last man standing?
Such a character could also adopt some cool fighting techniques. Perhaps
he could goad the enemy brick to charge him and watch with glee as the
brick has to suffer all the damage himself. Or maybe he could borrow a
bomb from the team gadgeteer and walk into the enemy base...
If this doesn't convince the tentative GM to at least play test this
remember that even a player can't be hurt by physical or energy damage
he can still be entangled, drained, suppressed, transfered, teleported,
grabbed, thrown, XDM'ed, mind controlled, illusioned, ego blasted and
(of course) just locked up in a big steal box and dropped into the sea..
--
_==/ i i \==_
/XX/ |\___/| \XX\
/XXXX\ |XXXXX| /XXXX\
|XXXXXX\_ _XXXXXXX_ _/XXXXXX|
XXXXXXXXXXXxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXXXxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXXX
|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|
XXXXXXXXX http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk XXXXXXXXX
|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|
XXXXXX/^^^^"\XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX/^^^^^\XXXXXX
|XXX| \XXX/^^\XXXXX/^^\XXX/ |XXX|
\XX\ \X/ \XXX/ \X/ /XX/
"\ " \X/ " /"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo post.mail.demon.net from chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk server @post-12.mail.demon.net ip 194.217.242.41
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 12:08:00 +0100
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Donald Tsang wrote:
>
> I figure this is no dumber than arguing about how much STR should cost...
>
> You have 15 extra points, because you're an RPG player... now go spend it.
> Caveats: no more than -1 limitation total on powers, no frameworks, and
> you do have "Normal Charactersitics Maxima".
>
> Donald
10pt variable power pool
Control cost at -1 (Takes a whole turn to change)
3pt skill (Being really cool with my pool!)
Just because I really want to make the most of these points, and I'm
cheesy, and I can't believe that nobody else though of it...
Oh, on the other hand...
Skill enhanceer- Net of Contacts.
10 contacts - Supermodels of the World.
--
_==/ i i \==_
/XX/ |\___/| \XX\
/XXXX\ |XXXXX| /XXXX\
|XXXXXX\_ _XXXXXXX_ _/XXXXXX|
XXXXXXXXXXXxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXXXxxxxxxxXXXXXXXXXXX
|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|
XXXXXXXXX http://www.lynch1.demon.co.uk XXXXXXXXX
|XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX|
XXXXXX/^^^^"\XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX/^^^^^\XXXXXX
|XXX| \XXX/^^\XXXXX/^^\XXX/ |XXX|
\XX\ \X/ \XXX/ \X/ /XX/
"\ " \X/ " /"
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo m4.boston.juno.com from llwatts@juno.com server @m4.boston.juno.com ip 205.231.101.198
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-2,5-13
From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts)
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 08:36:27 EDT
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>You have 15 extra points, because you're an RPG player... now go spend
>it.
4 American Sign Language, total fluency (which I need to study anyway,
it's just a matter of time before one of my friends loses the rest of her
hearing)
3 Ambidexterity
5 Wealth (yeah, I know, everyone is grabbing this one)
3 +1 Enhanced Perception (all senses)
Leah
_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: TK
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 08:39:54 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Like I said, we no longer play with him.
Jason Goode
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stainless Steel Rat [SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 4:27 PM
> To: Champions
> Subject: Re: TK
>
> Goode, Jason writes:
>
> > I had one GM who figured that an NPC with TK and N-ray vision could look
> > inside your head and squeeze blood vessels shut to instantly kill you.
>
> Um, no. TK cannot bypass personal defenses at all. This is an RKA with
> some expensive advantages.
>
> Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 05:44:06 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 06:13 PM 5/6/1998 -0500, Donald Tsang wrote:
>I figure this is no dumber than arguing about how much STR should cost...
>
>You have 15 extra points, because you're an RPG player... now go spend it.
>Caveats: no more than -1 limitation total on powers, no frameworks, and
> you do have "Normal Charactersitics Maxima".
Realistically:
2 KS: Sci-Fi TV, 11-
2 KS: RPG Systems, 11-
11 KS: Obscure Potpourri Trivia, 20-
Ideally, I'd just buy of Physical Limitation: Arthritic.
Or maybe get 15 points of Wealth.
Or if we really want to be fantastic about it, Invisibility vs Normal
Sight, 5 Minutes to Activate (-1), plus only 5 points of Wealth.
I might also take Shape Shift to any humanoid form, same Limitation as
above, plus Wealth (5 points).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hil-img-2.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @hil-img-2.compuserve.com ip 149.174.177.132
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:41:10 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Combat to RP ratio in 4E
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Content-Disposition: inline
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id JAA05266
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Well, it looks like most people have 6-hour sessions with 2 combats (I
didn't calculate averages, this is just my observation). My question now
is how much of that 6-hour block is taken up conducting combat? In my
group, I'd say 4 hours out of 6 are combat resolution...I'm wondering if
we're combat heavy or if this is the norm.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo gwa.ericsson.com from exucurt@exu.ericsson.se server @gwa.ericsson.com ip 198.215.127.2
From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se>
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 08:43:01 -0500 (CDT)
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Wealth and Winged Flight.
Nice thread.
Curt
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hil-img-8.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @hil-img-8.compuserve.com ip 149.174.177.138
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 10:24:51 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Heroes Unlimited, 2nd Edition
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Content-Disposition: inline
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id KAA07966
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I realize this is sorta off-topic, but I have found that it is virtually
impossible to get information about Heroes Unlimited on the web...even the
Palladium page (which I don't think is official) omits it from their
catalog, which is weird seeing that they have a bunch of obscure games
listed that I never knew existed. I did find a brief review of HU on the
Herozine site, but I think it was written before 2nd Edition came out.
I was in the local game shop last week (picking up Atlantis and Pyramid in
the Sky) and I saw a copy of Heroes Unlimited 2nd Edition...I checked the
copyright and it was 1998, so I know it's a new product. Anyway, I've been
curious for a while about how other systems treat the superhero genre... A
while back I asked for reviews of several systems, and got reviews on all
of them except Heroes Unlimited--the closest I could come was "the
Palladium system sucks." Anyway, since I'm at a loss to find a review of
this game (I can't even get on the Heroes Unlimited mailing list...I try to
subscribe from the web site and nothing happens), I'm hoping that somebody
here has had a little experience with it.
Can anyone give me the basic gist of Heroes Unlimited (2nd Edition, if
possible)? Feel free to send private mail if you don't think HU should
clutter this list. A comparison to Hero System would be great too. I
heard somewhere that it has a level system, so you could be a 3rd Level
Superhero or whatever. When I flipped through 2nd Edition, I didn't see
anything that indicated this...did I just not look closely enough, or have
they dropped levels, or did they never have levels to begin with? I saw
that it has a big list of powers to choose from, but I got the impression
somewhere that you can't build any power you want like in Champions. If
this was true, I'm wondering if 2nd Edition added the ability to make
whatever power you want. I did find a HU page which listed a bunch of new
powers (but had no information on HU for those who don't already know about
it), but I don't know if the rules support power creation or if the guy was
just producing his own hacks.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: Primitive Mailers (was: RE: TK)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 10:26:42 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Woohoo! I am able slip out of Microsoft's far reaching grasp again!
Jason Goode
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Desmarais [SMTP:John.Desmarais@ibm.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 8:55 PM
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Primitive Mailers (was: RE: TK)
>
> On Wed, 6 May 1998 17:01:23 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote:
>
> ><Small aside to Bob about primitive mailers>
> >Look at that down there. See what happens when you try to put the reply
> >after the quote in MS Mail/MS Outlook?
>
> For what's it's worth, you can download a plug-in for Outlook from
> Microsloth that makes
> it somewhat more "internet mail" friendly (handles quoting in replies more
> the way you
> would expect a mailer to, with a user definable symbol at the start of the
> quoted line and
> your new text starting beneath it).
>
> -=>John D.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo emerald from jgoode@medrad.com server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org>
Subject: RE: TK
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 10:33:25 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
It's more annoying for me, since I have to hunt for and try to pick out the
reply from where MS Mail/Outlook buried it in the middle of your text and
">" marks. At least if it's up here, I have no difficulty separating the
reply from the original message. Regardless, problem solved if I can find
that plug-in John Desmarais mentioned.
Jason Goode
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Greenwade [SMTP:bob.greenwade@klock.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 6:29 PM
> To: Champions Mailing List
> Subject: RE: TK
>
> At 05:01 PM 5/6/1998 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote:
> ><Small aside to Bob about primitive mailers>
> >Look at that down there. See what happens when you try to put the reply
> >after the quote in MS Mail/MS Outlook?
>
> Um... actually, I don't see anything wrong in there, except maybe the
> lack of separating blank lines (a much lesser problem, at least for me,
> than having to read backwards).
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo jcs1.jcstate.edu from ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu server @jcs1.jcstate.edu ip 204.117.72.52
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 10:34:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: 15 points
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I generally know what I'd want... Eidetic Memory, Lightning Calculator,
Speed Reading, Cramming, + INT... probally with Limitations like Total
Concentration throughout, Cannot move in Phase when power is used, etc.
I'm suprised so many people said LS: Aging... I mean, you get to see your
friends and loved ones die while you stay relatively young. The world is
going to hell in a handbasket... Then, there's the idea of future shock
and you not being able to adapt... or you being dissected in a government
labatory, or being labeled a freak of nature...
Anyway, I'm suprised no nut jobs out there said N-Ray Vision (only to see
through clothes) or Instant Change (UAO, Only into no clothes at all)...
-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+-
"Fools are my theme, let satire be my song."
-Lord Byron; English Bards and Scotch Reviewers. Line 6.
-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo jcs1.jcstate.edu from ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu server @jcs1.jcstate.edu ip 204.117.72.52
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 10:43:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Other Superhero Games
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
A system similar to Palladium is Cosmic Enforcers. Just like Palladium,
it's an interesting genre with some interesting characters, but the system
and the limited character classes (as well as the level system) kills it.
-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+-
"Fools are my theme, let satire be my song."
-Lord Byron; English Bards and Scotch Reviewers. Line 6.
-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo jcs1.jcstate.edu from ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu server @jcs1.jcstate.edu ip 204.117.72.52
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 10:46:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Palladium-HERO conversions
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Does anyone know of any Paladium-Hero conversion rules? I happen to like
Wormwood, Nightbane/Nightspawn, Beyond the Supernatural, and some of the
funkier biomechanical stuff from Rifts.
I also heard in the back of the Ultimate Martial Artist, there were
conversion charts for HERO to other systems for the Martial Arts presented
in the book... I was wondering if it was true.
-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+-
"Fools are my theme, let satire be my song."
-Lord Byron; English Bards and Scotch Reviewers. Line 6.
-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo exchange-irvine.platsoft.com from dmattingly@platsoft.com server @mail.platsoft.com ip 206.215.12.10
From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 10:42:26 -0700
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Here's one nobody's mentioned yet:
Duplication: 2 50-point duplicates, extra time: 1 turn
Wouldn't you love to be in three places at once?
If not that, then wishes:
10 VPP
5 Cosmic Control Cost, 1 per day
Dave Mattingly
http://www.haymaker.org
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: Other Superhero Games
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 14:05:00 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jason Sullivan [SMTP:ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, May 07, 1998 11:44 AM
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Other Superhero Games
>
> A system similar to Palladium is Cosmic Enforcers. Just like Palladium,
> it's an interesting genre with some interesting characters, but the system
> and the limited character classes (as well as the level system) kills it.
>
------------------------
When my new game started up, one of the first guys I picked suggested we
play Cosmic Enforcers. I said, "I've already pretty much decided, but I'll
look at it." After I read it, I said, "Most Palladium-like." He said, "It
was written by a former Palladium guy." I said, "Interesting back drop."
He said, "That's what I like best about it." I said, "Well, if you want to
GM it, I'll play it, but if we're playing superheroes, a Palladium-style
system is really not the way to go. We should use Champions for the
mechanics." He said, "Champions? What's that?" I said, "Why, only the
coolest superhero game ever developed. Here, I'll show you..."
So, now he runs Cosmic Enforcers with the Hero System as the underlying
mechanics.
Jason Goode
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: Palladium-HERO conversions
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 14:13:15 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jason Sullivan [SMTP:ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, May 07, 1998 11:47 AM
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org
> Subject: Palladium-HERO conversions
>
> Does anyone know of any Paladium-Hero conversion rules? I happen to like
> Wormwood, Nightbane/Nightspawn, Beyond the Supernatural, and some of the
> funkier biomechanical stuff from Rifts.
>
---------------------------------
A couple of my players are currently detoxing from Rifts. (Umm, Dave,
you're a superhero, remember? You don't have to kill him. Jail will do
nicely.) They have some Rifts-translated characters and items.
We also have a Cosmic Enforcers game which runs using Champions mechanics.
What we find is that we can't develop any hard and fast rules, largely
because most Palladium stuff is not internally consistent. We have to do
most of the conversions on a individual basis.
Jason Goode
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: RE: Heroes Unlimited, 2nd Edition
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 14:34:38 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Stallard [SMTP:DBStallard@compuserve.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 07, 1998 10:25 AM
> To: Goode, Jason
> Cc: [unknown]
> Subject: Heroes Unlimited, 2nd Edition
>
> I'm hoping that somebody here has had a little experience with it.
>
------------------------------
I have a Palladium-ophile friend who bought this about two weeks ago. I'm
getting together with him and some other folks tonight, so I'll show him
your e-mail and ask him what he thinks. I'll send it to you direct, unless
someone else on the list expresses interest.
Jason Goode
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo arl-img-4.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @arl-img-4.compuserve.com ip 149.174.217.134
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 14:44:36 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: RE: Other Superhero Games
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Content-Disposition: inline
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id OAA23729
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Message text written by "Goode, Jason"
>So, now he runs Cosmic Enforcers with the Hero System as the underlying
mechanics. <
What is the backdrop to Cosmic Enforcers? I've never heard of it.... It
sounds like superheroes in space, which doesn't grab my interest.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo send1b.yahoomail.com from johndesmarais@yahoo.com server @send1b.yahoomail.com ip 205.180.60.23
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 11:46:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: RE: Palladium-HERO conversions
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
"Goode, Jason" wrote:
>
> > From: Jason Sullivan [SMTP:ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu]
> >
> > Does anyone know of any Paladium-Hero conversion rules? I happen
to like
> > Wormwood, Nightbane/Nightspawn, Beyond the Supernatural, and some
of the
> > funkier biomechanical stuff from Rifts.
>
> A couple of my players are currently detoxing from Rifts. (Umm, Dave,
> you're a superhero, remember? You don't have to kill him. Jail
will do
> nicely.) They have some Rifts-translated characters and items.
>
> We also have a Cosmic Enforcers game which runs using Champions
mechanics.
>
> What we find is that we can't develop any hard and fast rules, largely
> because most Palladium stuff is not internally consistent. We have
to do
> most of the conversions on a individual basis.
This really is the best way to convert betwen most game systems anyway
- rewriting the concept in the new game system. Trying to convert the
numbers between game systems usually misses to many of the things that
aren't covered by one system or the other (such as the idea that power
levels tend to be relative not absolute).
Beside, converting at the concept level means you really only need to
know the destination game system well (assuming that source gives an
adequate "non-mechanic" description).
-=>John D.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Palladium-HERO conversions
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 07 May 1998 14:50:29 -0400
Lines: 30
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Jason Sullivan writes:
> Does anyone know of any Paladium-Hero conversion rules?
The problem with converting from one system to another in this case is that
Hero is a system, but Palladium is a collection of rules that look good.
You will have a difficult time finding a 1:1 correspondence because there
is none.
So, if you insist on such a conversion, the sanest thing to do is to try to
understand both games as thoroughly as you can and use Hero to model
Palladium's effects as best you can.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNVICdJ6VRH7BJMxHAQGbNwP/b0mDDeclM1NZTFMU9SRez2XnuLHFKye5
XFZw/ssBPUvXmS6idOno7gGx6UKKIJ8eZ2huqjTLVGoW0dJ8WbukLXSXGLs9aeLj
B6iA4vZCcmKL8uhg1hJ2tC0P2qIYYQ2Defqsccoz+bqU+d4boz+Bd/UQ04f1jY8A
0TahoJ9xWyc=
=VVmC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover
\ head.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Other Superhero Games
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 15:22:59 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Thursday, May 07, 1998 2:45 PM, David Stallard
[SMTP:DBStallard@compuserve.com] wrote:
> Message text written by "Goode, Jason"
> >So, now he runs Cosmic Enforcers with the Hero System as the underlying
> mechanics. <
>
> What is the backdrop to Cosmic Enforcers? I've never heard of it.... It
> sounds like superheroes in space, which doesn't grab my interest.
Holy Cow! This "Internet Mail Enhancement Patch for MS Outlook 97"
actually works! I have to pass this around to some of the other folks here
at work.
Anyway, this would be difficult to do in a few lines (for me, at least). My
friend copied some of the text to give to some of the other players so they
wouldn't have to buy the book to understand the universe. If you send me
your mailing address, I can mail you a copy of those pages.
Jaosn Goode
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo medrad.com from jgoode@medrad.com server @hq.medrad.com ip 206.138.198.2
From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Palladium-HERO conversions
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 15:25:01 -0400
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Thursday, May 07, 1998 2:50 PM, Stainless Steel Rat
[SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net] wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> Jason Sullivan writes:
>
> > Does anyone know of any Palladium-Hero conversion rules?
>
> The problem with converting from one system to another in this case is
that
> Hero is a system, but Palladium is a collection of rules that look good.
Well put. Palladium looks okay on the surface, but it definitely doesn't
work like an internally consistent system.
Jason Goode
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo imo29.mx.aol.com from alurmic@aol.com server @imo29.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.73
From: Alurmic <Alurmic@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 17:02:30 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: V+V & justice inc auction last day
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
i have an auction going for the following ending on midnite friday
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo emerald from burns@usmcug.usm.maine.edu server @emerald.omg.org ip 192.67.184.65
From: Eric Burns <burns@cug.dorm.usm.maine.edu>
Subject: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
To: champ-l@omg.org (champions listserv)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 17:10:36 -0400 (EDT)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> I figure this is no dumber than arguing about how much STR should cost...
>
> You have 15 extra points, because you're an RPG player... now go spend it.
> Caveats: no more than -1 limitation total on powers, no frameworks, and
> you do have "Normal Charactersitics Maxima".
>
> Donald
>
+4 to COM 2pts (won't put me over 20)
Life Support - Immune to Aging, Immune to Disease 6pts
Regeneration - 10pts, Only at Night (-1/2) 7pts
-Eric
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo iquest3.iquest.net from bastet@iquest.net server @iquest3.iquest.net ip 209.43.20.203
X-Sender: bastet@pop.iquest.net
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 18:40:32 -0400
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net>
Subject: Re: 15 points
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 10:34 AM 5/7/98 -0500, Jason Sullivan wrote:
>I'm suprised so many people said LS: Aging... I mean, you get to see your
>friends and loved ones die while you stay relatively young. The world is
>going to hell in a handbasket... Then, there's the idea of future shock
>and you not being able to adapt... or you being dissected in a government
>labatory, or being labeled a freak of nature...
Here's an idea, you raise a good point. I'm not too worried about the
world going to hell in a handbasket, people have been saying things are
getting worse for hundreds of years. But another way to spend those 15
points would be
10 Wealth
5 CEO
Then I could run a genetics corporation hunting down all those 'extra 15
points' people.;) Granted, they would get more points from having a
hunted, but, if some of them hunt me I'd get more points also.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo elvis.vnet.net from johnl@vnet.net server @elvis.vnet.net ip 166.82.1.5
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 22:42:23 GMT
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Wed, 6 May 1998 18:13:48 -0500, you wrote:
>I figure this is no dumber than arguing about how much STR should cost...
>
>You have 15 extra points, because you're an RPG player... now go spend it.
>Caveats: no more than -1 limitation total on powers, no frameworks, and
> you do have "Normal Charactersitics Maxima".
Immunity to aging, 3 points
Immunity to disease, 3 points
Regeneration, 1pt per hour, 6 points
Inventor skill, 3 points
That ought to keep me amused for a long while...
John Lansford
"I'm damaged, and I like it. It made me what I am."
Donald Roeser, "Damaged"
http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/intro.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo user1.cyberis.net from ctaylor@cyberis.net server qmailr@user1.cyberis.net ip 207.14.106.217
X-Sender: ctaylor@pop.cyberis.net
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 16:00:40 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net>
Subject: 15 points
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
hmmm fifteen points
5" flight, x4NC value (thats plenty fast and 1 end per phase)
or:
1 BOD/5 minute regen, usable against others, concentrate 1/2DCV full time
----------------------------------------------------------
Sola Gracia Sola Scriptura Sola Fide
Soli Gloria Deo Solus Christus Corum Deo
-----------------------------------------------------------
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo access4.digex.net from dpawtows@access.digex.net server ql8n./ZPr9g26@access4.digex.net ip 205.197.245.195
From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Quotes at top (was RE: The Ultimate Quote)
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 22:03:03 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: VTSFFC
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> And on a related subject, I tend to get confused by people who write
> their replies at the top of their posts, and then show the quotes. I
> people, please put the new material *after* the quote.
Actually, I know one source for that. Microsoft Exchange is the
mail software I'm forced to use at work, and Exchange *HEAVILY*
encourages users to put the original text at the top, the quoted material
at the bottom, and to quote the entire message. I suspect that
several other Microsoft-issued mailers are similar.
Everybody at work does exactly that, and they wonder where I picked
up my "odd" habit of original text at the bottom.
I know an admin once who called up Microsoft to complain about that
and several other annoying non-standardized ways that Exchange handles
mail (he was particularly ticked off that Exchange refuses to denote
quoted material with a '>', and seperates email addresses with
semicolons, not commas).
The answer they gave him was that all the things that he was asking about
were 'obsolete', and that Exchange could not be set otherwise because
nobody in his right mind would want to. If any of his friends still
used one of the few remaining ancient 'non-standard' mailers , they
should upgrade to an MS product immediately.
Daniel Pawtowski
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo access4.digex.net from dpawtows@access.digex.net server ql8n./ZPr9g26@access4.digex.net ip 205.197.245.195
From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 22:14:29 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: VTSFFC
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
So, how many points is "Immunity to spam/junk mail", anyway? :-)
Daniel Pawtowski
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo access4.digex.net from dpawtows@access.digex.net server ql8n./ZPr9g26@access4.digex.net ip 205.197.245.195
From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 22:19:55 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: VTSFFC
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Here's one nobody's mentioned yet:
>
> Duplication: 2 50-point duplicates, extra time: 1 turn
>
Already have that one. OK, so I went for one duplicate of
equal point value. Or was _he_ the one that bought it....?
Daniel Pawtowski
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo access5.digex.net from susano@access.digex.net server ql/uf2H3ZGxMA@access5.digex.net ip 205.197.245.196
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 22:27:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Quotes at top (was RE: The Ultimate Quote)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Thu, 7 May 1998, Daniel Pawtowski wrote:
> The answer they gave him was that all the things that he was asking about
> were 'obsolete', and that Exchange could not be set otherwise because
> nobody in his right mind would want to. If any of his friends still
> used one of the few remaining ancient 'non-standard' mailers , they
> should upgrade to an MS product immediately.
The more I am exposed to Micro$oft products, the more I like my Macintosh.
Microsoft: Where do you want to go today?
Macintosh: Where do you want to be _tomorrow_?
***************************************************************************
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
***************************************************************************
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 21:38:39 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 10:14 PM 5/7/98 -0400, Daniel Pawtowski wrote:
>
> So, how many points is "Immunity to spam/junk mail", anyway? :-)
>
> Daniel Pawtowski
Missive Deflection: 5 points for emailed objects, +10 to Reflect back at
spammer
Damon
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 19:44:31 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Quotes at top (was RE: The Ultimate Quote)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 10:03 PM 5/7/1998 -0400, Daniel Pawtowski wrote:
>> And on a related subject, I tend to get confused by people who write
>> their replies at the top of their posts, and then show the quotes. I
>
>> people, please put the new material *after* the quote.
>
> Actually, I know one source for that. Microsoft Exchange is the
>mail software I'm forced to use at work, and Exchange *HEAVILY*
>encourages users to put the original text at the top, the quoted material
>at the bottom, and to quote the entire message. I suspect that
>several other Microsoft-issued mailers are similar.
> Everybody at work does exactly that, and they wonder where I picked
>up my "odd" habit of original text at the bottom.
>
> I know an admin once who called up Microsoft to complain about that
>and several other annoying non-standardized ways that Exchange handles
>mail (he was particularly ticked off that Exchange refuses to denote
>quoted material with a '>', and seperates email addresses with
>semicolons, not commas).
> The answer they gave him was that all the things that he was asking about
>were 'obsolete', and that Exchange could not be set otherwise because
>nobody in his right mind would want to. If any of his friends still
>used one of the few remaining ancient 'non-standard' mailers , they
>should upgrade to an MS product immediately.
You know, I'd been about ready to apologize for the slightly derogatory
tone of my earlier remark, but in light of this it seems that I was
unnecessarily kind. This is no upgrade; it's a travesty. MS Exchange will
probably go the way of Borland Sprint by the end of next year.
I'd actually have more to say on the topic, but it's off the topic of
the list so I'm keeping my remarks brief. In fact, I wouldn't even be
posting this much except to extend my condolences to those on the list
using MS Exchange, both for having to put up with this now and having to go
through the change when it goes out of print and user support dries up.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo access4.digex.net from dpawtows@access.digex.net server ql8n./ZPr9g26@access4.digex.net ip 205.197.245.195
From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 22:52:07 -0400 (EDT)
Organization: VTSFFC
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>
> Missive Deflection: 5 points for emailed objects, +10 to Reflect back at
> spammer
So I guess that would be another 10 to deflect mail sent to adjacent
addresses (ISP-level spam filter) and another 10 to block any piece
of spam (Smith Bill) ?
Daniel Pawtowski
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 07 May 1998 23:00:58 -0400
Lines: 31
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Daniel Pawtowski writes:
> So, how many points is "Immunity to spam/junk mail", anyway? :-)
It costs no points. All it takes is a systematic campaign of complaining
at the ISP of anyone responsible for originating spam, as well as at
providers of any services mentioned in said spam. Earlier this week I got
a response from "Afterburner, the Erol's Abuse Guy" which went something
like this:
Woo-hoo! That guy was a T1 customer with a Class C and everything.
Note the use of "was" above, as in, he *WAS* a T1 customer. Now he
is a smoking crater.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNVJ1aZ6VRH7BJMxHAQEOhAP/R8EAO3p6sIlK+jNe5aPrVRKT0bz9wvuB
GP2U9MO+LR1sJHRAtXOWODB9ok29yPH6LRRzEx5mveFXwjSmjsWqJG3Hz209aPG2
QwdqN3GaTwwa+7++BeNtQo+lFz9ItmDdfMMxHFiGgEfpmyYGn3wS0h+mgOl2Yz2f
obXmuPrFiAk=
=Mrg6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin.
\
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 22:09:56 -0500
To: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net&> champ-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 10:52 PM 5/7/98 -0400, Daniel Pawtowski wrote:
>>
>> Missive Deflection: 5 points for emailed objects, +10 to Reflect back at
>> spammer
>
> So I guess that would be another 10 to deflect mail sent to adjacent
>addresses (ISP-level spam filter) and another 10 to block any piece
>of spam (Smith Bill) ?
>
> Daniel Pawtowski
Actually, I just realized that Reflection usually costs +20 points, so
you'd need a -1 Limitation to bring it back down to 15 or less. OAF
Computer, for a net cost of 12?
With the remaining points you can buy List Reading.
LIST READING - This General Skill enables the character to read someone's
list post in order to tell what he is saying. A Perception Roll is
necessary to properly discern someone's intent (+1 to +3 to the roll if
smileys are used). If a character subscribes to more than one list, he can
read posts on all of those lists.
Failing a List Reading roll usually means that the conversation was not
understood, possibly because the person is being obtuse, or has failed to
use normal grammar and puncutation. Excessive quoting, self-contradictory
assertions or other obscurements of intent can mean a -1 ro -3 modifier to
the roll, or even make List Reading a royal pain in the butt.
Damon :)
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo mh2.cts.com from rowland@cts.com server root@mh2.cts.com ip 205.163.24.68
From: "WG Rowland" <rowland@cts.com>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Quotes at top (was RE: The Ultimate Quote)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 20:42:48 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Ugh, so MANY things to hate Microsoft for (I'm a programmer forced to use
their buggy languages in their buggy OS).. I can't say having new info at
the top and quote at the bottom is one of my complaints though.. I think
it's a matter of choice, and I think there should be an option.. But
considering that threads get REALLY long, REALLY fast, and people tend to
quote the whole thread, I'd rather have it out of the way at the bottom..
WGR
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net>
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Thursday, May 07, 1998 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: Quotes at top (was RE: The Ultimate Quote)
>On Thu, 7 May 1998, Daniel Pawtowski wrote:
>
>> The answer they gave him was that all the things that he was asking
about
>> were 'obsolete', and that Exchange could not be set otherwise because
>> nobody in his right mind would want to. If any of his friends still
>> used one of the few remaining ancient 'non-standard' mailers , they
>> should upgrade to an MS product immediately.
>
>The more I am exposed to Micro$oft products, the more I like my Macintosh.
>
>Microsoft: Where do you want to go today?
>
>Macintosh: Where do you want to be _tomorrow_?
>
>***************************************************************************
>* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *
>* Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net *
>* Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: *
>* http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html *
>* Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT *
>* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark *
>***************************************************************************
>
>
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo scud.pronet.net.au from cgtmljon@pronet.net.au server @scud.pronet.net.au ip 203.34.103.243
Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Lurking in web games
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 13:45:38 +1000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> I've been meaning to start reading through some campaign notes on the
web,
> but don't want to spend countless hours finding something worthwhile. I
> don't necessarily want to check in on a regular basis to see what the
group
> is up to...just a campaign history (turn-by-turn or more high level)
would
> be an interesting read and could spawn all sorts of ideas. Can anybody
on
> this list recommend any web sites where I can find something like this?
It
> looks like Shelley Mactyre's site probably fits this bill, but as of yet
I
> haven't had the time to sit down and read, read, read....
Welll. . i'll be setting up a rather ambitious page involving several
groups of roleplayers in the near future. So what are you after?
Something to actually read? a source of ideas? Well my
general
concept is to mesh different types of rp (pbem, online, tabletop,
plus ic 'field notes' based in online 'combat' games) into a single
narrative.
i'll be sure to inform the list when my project is up.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo scud.pronet.net.au from cgtmljon@pronet.net.au server @scud.pronet.net.au ip 203.34.103.243
Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Lurking in web games
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 13:45:38 +1000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> I've been meaning to start reading through some campaign notes on the
web,
> but don't want to spend countless hours finding something worthwhile. I
> don't necessarily want to check in on a regular basis to see what the
group
> is up to...just a campaign history (turn-by-turn or more high level)
would
> be an interesting read and could spawn all sorts of ideas. Can anybody
on
> this list recommend any web sites where I can find something like this?
It
> looks like Shelley Mactyre's site probably fits this bill, but as of yet
I
> haven't had the time to sit down and read, read, read....
Welll. . i'll be setting up a rather ambitious page involving several
groups of roleplayers in the near future. So what are you after?
Something to actually read? a source of ideas? Well my
general
concept is to mesh different types of rp (pbem, online, tabletop,
plus ic 'field notes' based in online 'combat' games) into a single
narrative.
i'll be sure to inform the list when my project is up.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo dnai.com from lizard@dnai.com server @dnai.com ip 207.181.194.98
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 21:06:27 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Re: 15 points
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 10:34 AM 5/7/98 -0500, Jason Sullivan wrote:
>Anyway, I'm suprised no nut jobs out there said N-Ray Vision (only to see
>through clothes) or Instant Change (UAO, Only into no clothes at all)...
>
Or "Stretching, 2", only for "(deleted). :)
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-SMTP: helo pentagon.io.com from jeffj@io.com server jeffj@pentagon.io.com ip 199.170.88.5
X-Authentication-Warning: pentagon.io.com: jeffj owned process doing -bs
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 23:06:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com>
To: WG Rowland <rowland@cts.com>
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Quotes at top (was RE: The Ultimate Quote)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Thu, 7 May 1998, WG Rowland wrote:
> I think
> it's a matter of choice, and I think there should be an option.. But
> considering that threads get REALLY long, REALLY fast, and people tend to
> quote the whole thread, I'd rather have it out of the way at the bottom..
Actually, I've noticed (and your message is no exception) that when people
have their mailers set up to put new material at the top, they are less
likely to trim what they are replying to.
I'm not the ListCop, but this /is/ getting way off topic, isn't it? Guess
I better go stir up some more hot debate or a new controversy...
J
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent. Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com
Qui annus est? http://www.io.com/~jeffj
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo dnai.com from lizard@dnai.com server @dnai.com ip 207.181.194.98
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 21:13:52 -0700
To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: Revised Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 04:29 PM 5/6/98 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>Lizard writes:
>> At 06:13 PM 5/6/98 -0500, Donald Tsang wrote:
>> >I figure this is no dumber than arguing about how much STR should cost...
>> >
>> >You have 15 extra points, because you're an RPG player... now go spend it.
>> >Caveats: no more than -1 limitation total on powers, no frameworks, and
>> > you do have "Normal Charactersitics Maxima".
>> >
>> 10 points of Immune to Aging, 5 points for 1d6 of luck.
>>
>Immune to aging is only 3 points.
Ah. Revised, now that I have my book:
3 pts:Immune to Aging
3 pts:Immune to disease
5 pts:No need to eat,sleep, or excrete
3 pts:+6 COM, to bring me up to 10. :)
Wealth? Given immortality and the ability to work a 24 hour day, wealth
won't be a problem, especially with no food or medical expenditures.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo relia.net from mhoram@relia.net server @saturn.relia.net ip 207.173.156.8
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 22:35:49 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Donald Tsang wrote:
>
> I figure this is no dumber than arguing about how much STR should cost...
>
> You have 15 extra points, because you're an RPG player... now go spend it.
> Caveats: no more than -1 limitation total on powers, no frameworks, and
> you do have "Normal Charactersitics Maxima".
>
> Donald
I'd go with:
2 Ls: Age with a -1/2 lim, does not stop aging, just the effects (so
I'll be spry as a 20 year old at 80)
3 Ls: need not eat/sleep sleep only -1
5 wealth
5 Transform 1 pip cumulative+1/2 limited class +1/4 - To make
old/broken things like new again. (who needs TK to fix a car)
--
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages,
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and
goes through their pockets. -- Eddy Peters
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo scud.pronet.net.au from cgtmljon@pronet.net.au server @scud.pronet.net.au ip 203.34.103.243
Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 16:13:05 +1000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
i dunno why no-one has thouh of this...
perk: world authority on everything (15)
*L*
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo m7.sprynet.com from chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com server @m7.sprynet.com ip 165.121.1.64
Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 23:41:06 -0700
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com>
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com
Organization: None
To: "Champ's Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: CHAR: Up For Critique; ERIC WALKER
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
I thought of this fellow when I should have been working.
Eric Walker
25/30 STR 15 7 1 level DI Always on
18 DEX 24 45 Multipower (45)
25 CON 30 3u +30 STR no CHA (-1/2) 0END +1/2
10 BOD 00 3u 9d6 EB Physical (only vs Targets on the
Ground) (-1/2)
10 INT 00 6u +10 STR AE Radius (40STR) NoCHA
11 EGO 02 2u +20 STR AP (on 50 Str) x3 END
18 PRE 08 2u +45 STR (no CHA) Only Vs
Entangles/Grabs (-1)
16 COM 03 3u Tunneling 4" Tunneling vs 9DEF
29/30 PD 24 10 Damage Resistance 10rPD/rED
19/20 ED 14 15 LS: All environments/Immunities
04 SPD 12 5 +5" Superleap (10")
10 Rec 00 2 PS: Artist 11-
50 END 00 5 +1 Level with Hand to Hand Combat
50 STN 14
CHA 146 + 104 Powers
100+Disadvantages
DF: Anachronistic Mannerisms/Speech
Easily Conceacled, Noticeable (5)
DF: SuperNatural Entity
Not Concealable, Strong, Small Group (15)
Hunteds: DEMON (mopow, NCI, 8-) (20)
Black Paladin (MoPow, Mild 8- (10)
Bulldozer (LsPow, 8-) (5)
Ripper (AsPow 8-) (10)
Physical Limitation: Amnesia (15)
Infrequently, Fully
Physical Limitation: Cannot Pass protection Circles
Infreq. Fully (15)
Psych Lim: Chivalric Code (20)
Common, Total
Searching For Past (15)
Common, Strong
Vulnerability: Black Iron/Evil Holy Weapons
2xSTUN (10)2xBODY (10)
150 +100=250
Eric Walker (the name he has assumed) knows nothing of his past. He does
know that he is gifted with super human strength and "brick" powers. His
sense of honor has led him to become a "Superhero". He suspects he is
from another time due to his lapses of Olde English speak and
references.
What he doesn't know: Everything.
Eric's real name is indeed Eric, Eric Reilly was an art student at the
Pacific Northwest College of Art in Portland, Oregon. His art of choice
tended to the supernatural, paintings of dragons and unicorns. It was
these elements that made him a target for a DEMON cell (a wierdo artist
who lived alone; and a virgin) he was kidnapped out of his apartment and
sacrificed to some elder demon in a summoning ritual. Unfortunately for
the Morbanes in question, the text had been altered by revisionists. The
"Demon" in question was actually a heroic demi-god of Justice worshiped
by a group of european clansman. The demi-god, unable to break the
circle passed much of his power on to the sacrifice, returning Eric to
life. The former corpse, being out side the circle was possessed by the
demi-god and thrashed those present. An effort to escape provided the
godling and its new avatar a chance to depart.
Eric awoke with no idea who he was. He chose the name Eric Walker
because he liked Eric and he was limited to Walking, he had no way of
driving the iron carraiges, no wait, cars that he saw.
He is trying to figure out who he is but at the same time feels the need
to aid the meak against those who would harm them.....
kinda shaky I know but what do you think?
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from filkhero@usa.net server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 00:21:29 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
<snip>
>
>I'd go with:
>2 Ls: Age with a -1/2 lim, does not stop aging, just the effects (so
>I'll be spry as a 20 year old at 80)
Don't read much Greek mythology, do you? There is a legend about a man
(whose name I forget) who asked Zeus for immortality, but forgot to
ask not to age. Today he is a cricket.
Keep in mind that at 300 years old, you are going to look _REALLY_
old. Personally, I don't want to look 200 years dead and be as spry as
a 20 year old.
Filksinger
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from filkhero@usa.net server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: TK
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 00:30:33 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Goode, Jason <JGoode@medrad.com>
>
> <Small aside to Bob about primitive mailers>
> Look at that down there. See what happens when you try to put the
reply
> after the quote in MS Mail/MS Outlook?
<snip>
Outlook 98 is available as a free download from Microsoft until June
30th,
then as a free download for registered owners of Outlook 97. It might
help
with that, as Outlook 98 is reported to be a big improvement over
Outlook 97.
One word of caution, however. A friend of mine was sure it was a 30
day
demo. I have found no indication of this, so he was probably mistaken,
but....
Additionally, Outlook Express (which requires IE 4.0) puts quoted text
at the bottom, but so long as you state that you wish all replies to
be text only, you can add in comments anywhere w/o any difficulty.
Filksinger
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from filkhero@usa.net server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: What would you do with 15 pts?
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 00:32:44 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com>
>
> Another idea: Extra-Dimensional Movement with 4x mass to some
suitably
cool
> and optimistic alternate world (my first thought was for L Neil
Smith's
world
> of *The Probability Broche*) 30 active pts. -1 limitation: Extra
Time (1
> turn). 15 real points.
That's an idea. I would probably select my own superhero universe, or
possibly Tertius in Heinlein's "Number of the Beast". In both
locations
there are EDM devices that would allow me to continue my travels.
Filksinger
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from filkhero@usa.net server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35
Reply-To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net>
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: What would you do with 15 pts?
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 00:35:06 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
>
> I figure this is no dumber than arguing about how much STR should
cost...
>
> You have 15 extra points, because you're an RPG player... now go
spend
it.
> Caveats: no more than -1 limitation total on powers, no frameworks,
and
> you do have "Normal Charactersitics Maxima".
>
This is more difficult than it looks. I might go with simply buying
off
some disadvantages, as I hate having bad knees, bad back, and a few
other
things.
Alternately, I may go with 15 pts. Wealth. Assuming that I don't have
to
buy off a 5 pt. Disadvantage: Poor.
One possibility that occured is to give myself Multiform, with the new
form having the ability to look just like me. That would give me 150
pts, IIRC.
Filksinger
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo out2.ibm.net from john.desmarais@ibm.net server @out2.ibm.net ip 165.87.194.229
From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
To: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net&> "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 03:41:31 -0400
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net>
Subject: Re: What would you do with 15 pts?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Fri, 8 May 1998 00:35:06 -0700, Filksinger wrote:
>From: Donald Tsang <tsang@sedl.org>
>>
>> I figure this is no dumber than arguing about how much STR should
>cost...
>>
>> You have 15 extra points, because you're an RPG player... now go
>spend
>it.
>> Caveats: no more than -1 limitation total on powers, no frameworks,
>and
>> you do have "Normal Charactersitics Maxima".
>>
>
>This is more difficult than it looks. I might go with simply buying
>off
>some disadvantages, as I hate having bad knees, bad back, and a few
>other
>things.
>
>Alternately, I may go with 15 pts. Wealth. Assuming that I don't have
>to
>buy off a 5 pt. Disadvantage: Poor.
>
>One possibility that occured is to give myself Multiform, with the new
>form having the ability to look just like me. That would give me 150
>pts, IIRC.
>
>Filksinger
The base form must be the larger (points-wise) of the forms, so your "other form" would
have to be build on (at most) the same number of points your are minus the cost of the
multiform power.
-=>John D.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo mail1.teleport.com from cptspith@teleport.com server @mail1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.26
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 02:04:35 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Mailer/Browser(was Re: TK)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Filksinger wrote:
> Outlook 98 is available as a free download from Microsoft until June 30th,
> then as a free download for registered owners of Outlook 97. It might help
> with that, as Outlook 98 is reported to be a big improvement over
> Outlook 97.
<....>
> Additionally, Outlook Express (which requires IE 4.0) puts quoted text
> at the bottom, but so long as you state that you wish all replies to
> be text only, you can add in comments anywhere w/o any difficulty.
Ofcourse, there's another strike against it; requiring IE. I
wouldn't use IE if you covered my head with honey and planted me upside
down in an anthill.
Okay, perhaps I would THEN, but I purposely do not use that browser.
There's a reason the web is rife with "IE sucks" graphics...
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from cptspith@teleport.com server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 02:04:35 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Mailer/Browser(was Re: TK)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Filksinger wrote:
> Outlook 98 is available as a free download from Microsoft until June 30th,
> then as a free download for registered owners of Outlook 97. It might help
> with that, as Outlook 98 is reported to be a big improvement over
> Outlook 97.
<....>
> Additionally, Outlook Express (which requires IE 4.0) puts quoted text
> at the bottom, but so long as you state that you wish all replies to
> be text only, you can add in comments anywhere w/o any difficulty.
Ofcourse, there's another strike against it; requiring IE. I
wouldn't use IE if you covered my head with honey and planted me upside
down in an anthill.
Okay, perhaps I would THEN, but I purposely do not use that browser.
There's a reason the web is rife with "IE sucks" graphics...
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo mailhost.infi.net from asahoshi@nr.infi.net server @mailhost.infi.net ip 208.131.167.6
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Date: Fri, 8 May 98 06:37:24 -0400
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net>
To: "Daniel Pawtowski" <dpawtows@access.digex.net&>
"Hero Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Daniel Pawtowski dpawtows@access.digex.net 5/7/98 10:14 PM
>
> So, how many points is "Immunity to spam/junk mail", anyway? :-)
>
> Daniel Pawtowski
>
Considering its utility, I'd vote 60 points per 25% resistance...and
of course that has to tp out at 75%! :)
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo mail.stlnet.com from baron@stlnet.com server root@mail.stlnet.com ip 209.96.6.16
From: "Robert" <baron@stlnet.com>
To: "Champs" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 07:43:15 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>Buy a few points of invisible TK with fine manipulation. Then go
>out and win some major golf tournements sinking those monster puts.
>--
And be one HELL of a pool player to boot. *smile*
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 05:44:29 -0700
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Quotes at top (was RE: The Ultimate Quote)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 08:42 PM 5/7/1998 -0700, WG Rowland wrote:
>Ugh, so MANY things to hate Microsoft for (I'm a programmer forced to use
>their buggy languages in their buggy OS).. I can't say having new info at
>the top and quote at the bottom is one of my complaints though.. I think
>it's a matter of choice, and I think there should be an option.. But
>considering that threads get REALLY long, REALLY fast, and people tend to
>quote the whole thread, I'd rather have it out of the way at the bottom..
The problem I'm having with that (never mind that people should be
clipping stuff when they quote it) is that, like most people I'm used to
reading reactions *after* what's being reacted too. Kinda like:
"Why did you do that, Dick?" Jane asked.
"Because it needed to be done," Dick replied.
As opposed to:
"Because it needed to be done," Dick replied.
"Why did you do that, Dick?" Jane asked.
See the difference?
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 08:25:02 -0500
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Quotes at top (was RE: The Ultimate Quote)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> The problem I'm having with that (never mind that people should be
>clipping stuff when they quote it) is that, like most people I'm used to
>reading reactions *after* what's being reacted too. Kinda like:
>
> "Why did you do that, Dick?" Jane asked.
> "Because it needed to be done," Dick replied.
>
> As opposed to:
>
> "Because it needed to be done," Dick replied.
> "Why did you do that, Dick?" Jane asked.
This seems especially important if, as happens from time to time, the reply
gets to me before I see the original post.
Damon
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo relia.net from mhoram@relia.net server @saturn.relia.net ip 207.173.156.8
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 08:04:52 -0600
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Filksinger wrote:
>
> From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net>
>
> <snip>
> >
> >I'd go with:
> >2 Ls: Age with a -1/2 lim, does not stop aging, just the effects (so
> >I'll be spry as a 20 year old at 80)
> Keep in mind that at 300 years old, you are going to look _REALLY_
> old. Personally, I don't want to look 200 years dead and be as spry as
> a 20 year old.
>
Sorry, part of the assumed limitation is that a normal lifespan applies;
IE dead at 90 or so (well maybe 120). This is the way I would buy
'healthy as an ox till the day you keel over' type of thing.
--
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages,
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and
goes through their pockets. -- Eddy Peters
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo smtp2.erols.com from robtwest@erols.com server @smtp2.erols.com ip 207.172.3.235
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 08:08:00 -0700
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Quotes at top (was RE: The Ultimate Quote)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
WG Rowland wrote:
>
> Ugh, so MANY things to hate Microsoft for (I'm a programmer forced to use
> their buggy languages in their buggy OS).. I can't say having new info at
> the top and quote at the bottom is one of my complaints though.. I think
> it's a matter of choice, and I think there should be an option.. But
> considering that threads get REALLY long, REALLY fast, and people tend to
> quote the whole thread, I'd rather have it out of the way at the bottom..
At work, we use cc:Mail, which also places the quoted material at the
bottom, under a line of dashes. For a work environment, where it is good
to have a record of the entire transcript of the conversation in one
place, and where people are often included midway through a discussion,
this is an appropriate choice. When people are replying
bullet-by-bullet, they tend to mark their replies in a contrasting color.
This becomes strange when exchanging information with Unix people, who
can't see the colors, and use the traditional method of quoting. It was
totally inappropriate for any outside use, and I always had the
frustration of manually adjusting the replies...it would be nice if it
were a configurable option. Of course, now that it is a firing offense
to send personal email, outside use is less of an issue.
<------------------------------------------------------->
Robert A. West /// "Censorship is tyranny."
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113
http://www.erols.com/robtwest
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo arl-img-10.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @arl-img-10.compuserve.com ip 149.174.217.140
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 11:25:55 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Lurking in web games
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Content-Disposition: inline
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id LAA13087
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Message text written by INTERNET:jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
>Welll. . i'll be setting up a rather ambitious page involving several
groups of roleplayers in the near future. So what are you after?
Something to actually read? a source of ideas? Well my
general
concept is to mesh different types of rp (pbem, online, tabletop,
plus ic 'field notes' based in online 'combat' games) into a single
narrative.
i'll be sure to inform the list when my project is up. <
What I'd like to see is just a general synopsis of each turn (if an email
game) or session (if a face-to-face game). I don't really want to read it
in short story form, which seems to be the common trend, because there's a
lot of fluff and it takes longer. I'll make up a little example in the
following paragraph:
Turn 7 -- The heroes are still battling the fiendish plans of Master Razor.
The Destructo-Droids which Razor dispatched last turn have now started a
rampage in the streets of Campaign City. The group was ready to head out
and stop the Droids, when Claw Boy suggested that they allow some to escape
so they can follow them back to their base. The heroes agreed, and headed
out to stop all but a few Droids. The Droids ended up being tougher than
the heroes had expected, and Mental Girl got some nasty cuts from the
flying razors that the Droids were firing all over the place, and was only
saved when Indestructo Man stepped in front of her and blocked the incoming
razors. Mr. Strength finally ended the rampage by ripping up a huge chunk
of the street and dropping it on top of the Droids...effective, but it
won't look good in tomorrow's paper. Meanwhile, Stealth Guy had followed a
small group of Droids, getting people out of the way of danger but
otherwise letting the Droids go about their business. When they began to
head out of the city, he radio'd in his position and the team met up with
him in the hills north of Campaign City. They followed the Droids for a
bit, and were surprised when a hillside suddenly opened up to reveal a
man-made passage heading down into the earth. Assuming that they had found
Master Razor's hideout, they headed into the tunnel after the Droids for
the final showdown.
That is fairly brief, but gives you the plot progression and how the PCs
reacted to it. This could be extremely long-winded if turned into short
story format, with lots of extraneous setting description and made-up
dialog (that is, it didn't happen in the game but the GM stuck it in later
to make the story better) and whatnot. Using a format similar to the
above, Joe Lurker (me!) can read about an entire adventure in a reasonable
amount of time.
I'll be interested in taking a look at your site when it comes up. I'm not
sure from your message if you'll be running a PBEM, but I'm very interested
in joining a Champions 4E PBEM....
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo mason2.gmu.edu from wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu server @mason2.gmu.edu ip 129.174.1.11
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 11:57:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: William K Bushway <wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu>
X-Sender: wbushway@mason2.gmu.edu
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Fri, 8 May 1998, happyelf wrote:
> i dunno why no-one has thouh of this...
>
> perk: world authority on everything (15)
> *L*
Without the skills to back it up? I think it'd be sort of
annoying having TV news programs calling you to be their "guest
authority," and then not be able to answer their questions...
William K. Bushway, wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu
http://Mason.GMU.edu/~wbushway/index.html
"I'm betting that I'm just abnormal enough to survive."
-The Tick, The Tick Vs.The Breadmaster
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo topaz.cqu.edu.au from jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au server @topaz.cqu.EDU.AU ip 138.77.1.3
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 02:20:22 +1000 (EST)
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Lurking in web games
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 11:25 AM 5/8/98 -0400, you wrote:
>What I'd like to see is just a general synopsis of each turn (if an email
>game) or session (if a face-to-face game). I don't really want to read it
>in short story form, which seems to be the common trend, because there's a
>lot of fluff and it takes longer. I'll make up a little example in the
>following paragraph:
>
>Turn 7 -<snippy>
>
>That is fairly brief, but gives you the plot progression and how the PCs
>reacted to it. This could be extremely long-winded if turned into short
>story format, with lots of extraneous setting description and made-up
>dialog (that is, it didn't happen in the game but the GM stuck it in later
>to make the story better) and whatnot. Using a format similar to the
>above, Joe Lurker (me!) can read about an entire adventure in a reasonable
>amount of time.
>
Wellll, The site is pretty much ic (in character) and those
parts of it that are staight roleplaying (the pbem and tabletop game)
will be placed in a more 'fluffy' format than most bits. I'll mkost likely
be putting the events of the tabletop game up as a short review, but odds are
it will be ic, so a bit more fluffy then likely you'd hope. It will also
be quite serial style continuity, deeply involved in the setting (i hope).
I will be doing up a bunch of hero character sheets, which might be good for
ideas and interesting characters. Right now i'm working on beating
as many cliches as i can out of the npc's without ruining the game.
>I'll be interested in taking a look at your site when it comes up. I'm not
>sure from your message if you'll be running a PBEM, but I'm very interested
>in joining a Champions 4E PBEM....
You mean hero 4e or champs 4e? Well the setting is actually wiggy scifi-
it deals with an interdimensional mercenary/heroic organisation. The pbem
will be using a mostly superheroic points setup, with a gaget
vpp to depict normal equipment as opposed to heroic style non-points option.
I will be throwing in heaps op scenario ideas and so forth which could be
adapted to other genres but the genre in question is deffinitly a aquired taste.
Think one part 'red dwarf', one part 'paranoia', a few parts 'B5' and that
'space'
show the x-files people did, and then some *really* wierd stuff thrown in on
top.
"enslve humanity willya?"
Core Alpha PBEM http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/3306/Pbem.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo topaz.cqu.edu.au from jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au server @topaz.cqu.EDU.AU ip 138.77.1.3
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 02:26:05 +1000 (EST)
X-Sender: jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 11:57 AM 5/8/98 -0400, you wrote:
>On Fri, 8 May 1998, happyelf wrote:
>
>> i dunno why no-one has thouh of this...
>>
>> perk: world authority on everything (15)
>> *L*
>
> Without the skills to back it up? I think it'd be sort of
>annoying having TV news programs calling you to be their "guest
>authority," and then not be able to answer their questions...
>
Isn't that what politicians do anyway?
In fact i could note authorities of several major
'sciences' who wouldn't know a fact if it hit them on
the head with a cartoon slegehammer. :->~
> William K. Bushway, wbushway@osf1.gmu.edu
> http://Mason.GMU.edu/~wbushway/index.html
> "I'm betting that I'm just abnormal enough to survive."
> -The Tick, The Tick Vs.The Breadmaster
>
>
>
"enslve humanity willya?"
Core Alpha PBEM http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/3306/Pbem.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo mercury.sun.com from samuel.bell@eng.sun.com server @mercury.Sun.COM ip 192.9.25.1
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 09:53:35 -0700
From: Samuel.Bell@Eng.Sun.COM (Sam Bell)
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Copywrighting characters. (!)
X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-> From ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu Fri May 8 09:23:36 1998
->
-> Hi,
-> Has anyone here very copywrighted a character? I'd like to do so,
-> but I have alot of questions that need answering.
-> If anyone could give a breif synopsis of what to do or where I
-> could go, it would be most appreciated.
-> Thank you.
->
1) The term is 'copyright'.
2) You already have the copyright on any characters you created since April 1, 1989.
3) Check out http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html for more info.
-Sam
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo jcs1.jcstate.edu from ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu server @jcs1.jcstate.edu ip 204.117.72.52
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 12:25:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu>
Subject: Copywrighting characters. (!)
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Hi,
Has anyone here very copywrighted a character? I'd like to do so,
but I have alot of questions that need answering.
If anyone could give a breif synopsis of what to do or where I
could go, it would be most appreciated.
Thank you.
Jason Sullivan
-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+->-+-<-+-
"Fools are my theme, let satire be my song."
-Lord Byron; English Bards and Scotch Reviewers. Line 6.
-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=_-=-_=
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 12:27:04 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Copywrighting characters. (!)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 12:25 PM 5/8/98 -0500, Jason Sullivan wrote:
>Hi,
> Has anyone here very copywrighted a character? I'd like to do so,
>but I have alot of questions that need answering.
> If anyone could give a breif synopsis of what to do or where I
>could go, it would be most appreciated.
> Thank you.
> Jason Sullivan
Essentially all you have to do is create the character. Copyright is
assumed. It may help if you actually declare the character to be
copyrighted, in which case simply mark the character "Copyright 1998 by
Jason Sullivan" and that's it. No forms to fill out, no legal fees, no
registration involved. Trademarks are a different story, of course.
See the FAQ at...
http://www.cs.ruu.nl/wais/html/na-dir/law/copyright/myths/part1.html
Damon
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo send1c.yahoomail.com from johndesmarais@yahoo.com server @send1c.yahoomail.com ip 205.180.60.38
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 10:32:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: Copywrighting characters. (!)
To: Jason Sullivan <ravanos@jcs1.jcstate.edu&> champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Jason Sullivan wrote:
>
> Hi,
> Has anyone here very copywrighted a character? I'd like to do so,
> but I have alot of questions that need answering.
> If anyone could give a breif synopsis of what to do or where I
> could go, it would be most appreciated.
> Thank you.
> Jason Sullivan
>
I think actually what you want to know about isn't copyrighting, but
trademarking.
Copyright protects writings and artistic works against copying.
A trademark relates to identification of a product by means of a name
or symbol that is not descriptive of the product, and which is used in
the streams of commerce to identify the source or manufacturer of the
product.
What this means is that you could copyright a character sheet, but you
would register a trademark for the character name or likeness.
As an example: Each issue of "Action Comics" is copyrighted, but
"Superman" and all likenesses thereof are trademarks held by DC.
Personlly though, unless you are looking to engage in so commercial
venture with your character, it's just not worth the hassle, but if
you are determined, here's a couple of information sources:
US Copyright Office http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/
US Patent and Trademark Office http://www.uspto.gov/
==
John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org>
============================================
Got a question about the list? Just ask. Or, you can go
look over at www.sysabend.org/champions. I've been
slowly posting information about the list there.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo send1e.yahoomail.com from johndesmarais@yahoo.com server @send1e.yahoomail.com ip 205.180.60.64
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 10:33:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
William K Bushway wrote:
>
> On Fri, 8 May 1998, happyelf wrote:
>
> > i dunno why no-one has thouh of this...
> >
> > perk: world authority on everything (15)
> > *L*
>
> Without the skills to back it up? I think it'd be sort of
> annoying having TV news programs calling you to be their "guest
> authority," and then not be able to answer their questions...
But it would not be inconsistant with most "world authorities".
-=>John D.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Copywrighting characters. (!)
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 08 May 1998 13:55:24 -0400
Lines: 39
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Jason Sullivan writes:
> Has anyone here very copywrighted a character?
Spelled "copyright".
> I'd like to do so, but I have alot of questions that need answering.
I am not a lawywer, but I have done my own digging into certain aspects of
copyright law.
In this case, no, you cannot copyright a character. You may copyright an
image of a character as an artistic piece. You may copyright a written
work that includes a description of the character. But you cannot
copyright the character himself, nor his name.
Trademark is another matter entirely. I know very little about trademark
law, so I will refrain from comment.
In other words, if you are serious, contact a lawyer that specializes in
either copyright or trademark law.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNVNHCp6VRH7BJMxHAQHbzwP+LliND70mMKoe3R/MXWJrShjziC0LxLOj
pmAVuSbc/b4AK4oWiX+kAQoxiMJO7T6MdtppkKQzM2+gMje8opF4KsbQZlqus17D
QgHlaV0U0TIcnj1SyrgoZY7trTu+AUibNd8hMVyR4Ym/B6DAjocLWSFiNBOedBUW
p0hu1l6V3CE=
=6I/2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo arl-img-9.compuserve.com from dbstallard@compuserve.com server @arl-img-9.compuserve.com ip 149.174.217.139
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 13:57:03 -0400
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Lurking in web games
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Content-Disposition: inline
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id NAA23097
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Message text written by happyelf
>Wellll, The site is pretty much ic (in character) and those
parts of it that are staight roleplaying (the pbem and tabletop game)
will be placed in a more 'fluffy' format than most bits. I'll mkost likely
be putting the events of the tabletop game up as a short review, but odds
are
it will be ic, so a bit more fluffy then likely you'd hope. It will also
be quite serial style continuity, deeply involved in the setting (i hope).
I will be doing up a bunch of hero character sheets, which might be good
for
ideas and interesting characters. Right now i'm working on beating
as many cliches as i can out of the npc's without ruining the game.<
That sounds great, and that's what I'd want if I were a player. I was just
saying that as a Lurker I'd like to be able to see what's going on in a
campaign without reading pages of characters talking back and forth, just
to make it a better story. I certainly see the value of that, but the
short story form gets in the way of me gleaning ideas from a campaign.
>>You mean hero 4e or champs 4e?<<
I was talking about Champions 4E, meaning classic superhero using the 4E
HSR (as opposed to classic superhero using Fuzion). Actually, I don't even
care that much...I'd play in a Fuzion game, just 'cause it would finally
get me to read the rule section and make a judgement. I've been leaving it
hanging in limbo because my initial impressions were pretty bad (what do
you mean I have to make powers in 4E and then convert to Fuzion?!).
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo dewdrop2.mindspring.com from cypriot@concentric.net server @dewdrop2.mindspring.com ip 207.69.200.82
X-Sender: Cypriot@pop3.concentric.net
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 14:04:03 -0400
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Copywrighting characters. (!)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>I think actually what you want to know about isn't copyrighting, but
>trademarking.
>
>Copyright protects writings and artistic works against copying.
>
>A trademark relates to identification of a product by means of a name
>or symbol that is not descriptive of the product, and which is used in
>the streams of commerce to identify the source or manufacturer of the
>product.
>
>What this means is that you could copyright a character sheet, but you
>would register a trademark for the character name or likeness.
>
Actually, copyright is appropriate if you want to protect the entire
character sheet. That is, the entire character conception, its write-up,
etc. would be copyrighted, the same as if you had written a story about
him.
Trademark is appropriate, say for protecting a picture of the character,
or a logo he uses on his costume, or even his name.
====================== =================================================
Mike Christodoulou "Never doubt that a small group of committed
Cypriot@Concentric.Net citizens can change the world. In fact, it is
(770) 662-5605 the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
====================== =================================================
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo imo18.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo18.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.40
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 14:18:59 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Copywrighting characters. (!)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<< I think actually what you want to know about isn't copyrighting, but
trademarking.
Copyright protects writings and artistic works against copying.
A trademark relates to identification of a product by means of a name or
symbol that is not descriptive of the product, and which is used in the
streams of commerce to identify the source or manufacturer of the product.
What this means is that you could copyright a character sheet, but you would
register a trademark for the character name or likeness. >>
But only if the name is used in commerce, as you point out. You cannot
register a trademark unless you actually have the product in commerce (or is
used in commerce within, I believe, 6 months of acceptance by the office).
It costs $275 to file a request. *If* accepted, you then have 6 months to
use it in commerce and send them samples. If the request is denied (as one of
ours was in the past) then you do NOT get a refund; that $275 is gone. ;)
Mark @ GRG
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo imo16.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo16.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.38
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 14:55:26 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Copywrighting characters. (!)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<< Trademark is appropriate, say for protecting a picture of the character,
or a logo he uses on his costume, or even his name. >>
That is not true.
Trademarks are only for marks which represent an item (or service) that is
used in commerce.
Mark @ GRG
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo saturn.nildram.co.uk from qts@nildram.co.uk server @saturn.nildram.co.uk ip 195.112.4.22
From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org&>
"Daniel Pawtowski" <dpawtows@access.digex.net&>
"Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Date: Fri, 08 May 98 20:00:54
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
On Thu, 07 May 1998 22:09:56 -0500, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin
wrote:
>At 10:52 PM 5/7/98 -0400, Daniel Pawtowski wrote:
>>>
>>> Missive Deflection: 5 points for emailed objects, +10 to Reflect back at
>>> spammer
>>
>> So I guess that would be another 10 to deflect mail sent to adjacent
>>addresses (ISP-level spam filter) and another 10 to block any piece
>>of spam (Smith Bill) ?
>>
>> Daniel Pawtowski
>
>Actually, I just realized that Reflection usually costs +20 points, so
>you'd need a -1 Limitation to bring it back down to 15 or less. OAF
>Computer, for a net cost of 12?
>With the remaining points you can buy List Reading.
Wouldn't that be generally OAF Bulky (-1 1/2) or OAF Static (-2)?
qts
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 13:09:27 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Copywrighting characters. (!)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 01:55 PM 5/8/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Jason Sullivan writes:
>
>> Has anyone here very copywrighted a character?
>
>Spelled "copyright".
>
>> I'd like to do so, but I have alot of questions that need answering.
>
>I am not a lawywer, but I have done my own digging into certain aspects of
>copyright law.
>
>In this case, no, you cannot copyright a character. You may copyright an
>image of a character as an artistic piece. You may copyright a written
>work that includes a description of the character. But you cannot
>copyright the character himself, nor his name.
You know, Rat, you've said this repeatedly, and like so many of your
assertions it looks right on paper (or in electrons) but doesn't seem to
work out when it comes to actual practice.
If one cannot copyright a character, then why did the Conan Doyle estate
sue Paramount over the use of the Sherlock Holmes characters in "Star Trek:
the Next Generation"? And why did they have such leverage over Universal
using the same characters, even being portrayed secondarily by other
characters, in "Sliders"? And why can the Christie estate prevent *anyone*
from using Marple, Poirot, or any other Christie characters in *any* story
but those created by Dame Agatha?
(OK, so maybe it's because UK copyright law is different from US
copyright law, but I've also seen copyright notices regarding fictional
characters and institutions created by US authors....)
>Trademark is another matter entirely. I know very little about trademark
>law, so I will refrain from comment.
>
>In other words, if you are serious, contact a lawyer that specializes in
>either copyright or trademark law.
I would consider this to be extremely good advice. Most should be able
to give you a pretty clear picture of the situation in about 15 minutes,
and will charge a relatively nominal fee (about $50 or less).
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 15:16:22 -0500
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>>Actually, I just realized that Reflection usually costs +20 points, so
>>you'd need a -1 Limitation to bring it back down to 15 or less. OAF
>>Computer, for a net cost of 12?
>>With the remaining points you can buy List Reading.
>
>Wouldn't that be generally OAF Bulky (-1 1/2) or OAF Static (-2)?
Well, we were told to keep it down to a maximum total Limitation of -1.
And the limitations you mention, while often applicable, aren't required in
all cases. A laptop with a wireless modem, for example, would be neither
Immobile nor Bulky. You'd assume reduced DCV while trying to use the
laptop, regardless of its size or weight, but it doesn't pass the other
test for Bulky: "cannot be carried conveniently in two hands".
But "generally", yes, you're right.
Damon
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/ |
| Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines |
| Worthy Causes -- Computer -- Atlanta -- All Human Knowledge |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 15:19:31 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: Copywrighting characters. (!)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Trademarks are only for marks which represent an item (or service) that is
>used in commerce.
>
> Mark @ GRG
Hence the name TRADE (as in "the business of buying and selling
commodities; commerce") mark.
Damon
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/ |
| Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines |
| Worthy Causes -- Computer -- Atlanta -- All Human Knowledge |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo eamail1.unisys.com from andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com server @eamail1.unisys.com ip 192.61.103.80
From: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: RE: Copywrighting characters. (!)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 15:34:30 -0500
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>It costs $275 to file a request. *If* accepted, you then have 6 months
to
>use it in commerce and send them samples. If the request is denied (as
one of
>ours was in the past) then you do NOT get a refund; that $275 is gone.
;)
The Marxist money stealing federal socialist
totalitarian state strikes again! ^_^;
On a happier note:
Today is Liberation Day (in France)!
Today (May 8) in 1429, Joan of Arc
raised the siege of Orleans. Freeing
the city from the evil British empire!
We need someone like that to save us
from lawyers, bureaucrats, politicians, etc.
Hmmmm... Villain idea: The Bureaucrat!
Any ideas as to his powers? ^_^;
^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
"No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
- Joan of Arc's .sig
Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Copywrighting characters. (!)
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 08 May 1998 17:15:41 -0400
Lines: 29
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Bob Greenwade writes:
> If one cannot copyright a character, then why did the Conan Doyle
> estate sue Paramount over the use of the Sherlock Holmes characters in
> "Star Trek: the Next Generation"?
If I am not mistaken, it is not so much that the estate sued over the
character, it is that it sued over the use of copyrighted works that
include the character or the likeness of the character. It is probably the
same way that Paramount sued Antarctic Press and Altier Lana over "Star
Trekker".
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNVN1+56VRH7BJMxHAQFMTAP/fZanI1FExu8DRw1cpTWAkdKbl8ExXwL+
AfpjiXExj8Up1xiebCN8fEMw1xZ6ffYbkkkP8KKgwRc7J7GcaoDgc9Edxwkc9KU0
BXrZklND11l67CROz9FhJ3PYwFTWIdqwKoQk9fvrBcAYk20w3vasI1Yu6WjBZgu/
FA9XrBp2xbQ=
=Of2p
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and
\ kept under refrigeration.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 16:32:53 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>10pt variable power pool
>Control cost at -1 (Takes a whole turn to change)
>3pt skill (Being really cool with my pool!)
>
>Just because I really want to make the most of these points, and I'm
>cheesy, and I can't believe that nobody else though of it...
At least one other person did think of it, and both of you apparently
failed to notice the "no frameworks" caveat. That's what kept me from
choosing the same thing (the VPP, not the Skill you created to go with it)
and why I haven't decided how to spend the points. I always thought time
travel would be great, if only so I could pick up stuff like original
Shadow pulps for 10 cents, never have to worry about missing TV shows for
the series I regularly tape or an issue of a comic I collect, and being
able to buy minor little things that aren't around anymore, like Original
original Coke, tuna pot pies, 25-cent-a-gallon gas, etc.
Sadly, it can't be done for 15 points if I observe the -1 Limitation
maximum, so I'll have to pick something else. Definitely not Flight. I'm
not surprised many of you chose that, but I have this problem with heights.
How about:
5 Cramming
5 Wealth (Well Off, up to $500K/year)
5 Ranged Sense: Taste
Chris, consider that last one in light of your Contacts... ;)
Damon
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 16:28:15 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 04:32 PM 5/8/1998 -0500, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
> How about:
>
>5 Cramming
>5 Wealth (Well Off, up to $500K/year)
>5 Ranged Sense: Taste
For that matter:
10 Wealth
5 Diplomatic Immunity
Or even:
15 World Emperor
:-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo imo18.mx.aol.com from herogames@aol.com server @imo18.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.40
From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 19:32:55 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Re: Copywrighting characters. (!)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
In a message dated 5/8/98 2:21:46 PM, ratinox@peorth.gweep.net wrote:
>If I am not mistaken, it is not so much that the estate sued over the
>character, it is that it sued over the use of copyrighted works that
>include the character or the likeness of the character. It is probably the
>same way that Paramount sued Antarctic Press and Altier Lana over "Star
>Trekker".
You cannot copyright a character per se, but you can gain some protection
overall for the character. For instance, Marvel protects its characters with
copyright, which covers the assemblage of "name, distinctive likeness, and
abilities" as well as the history and background. Key characters generally
have their own book, and thus their name becomes a trademark as well (viz.,
"The Incredible Hulk"). This sort of copyright, while not explicit in the
statutes, has been developed through case law.
The Sherlock Holmes question was more complex, as some of the stories had
fallen into public domain. The Doyle estate fought long, hard, and ultimately
successfully to argue that while some stories had fallen into the public
domain, they still retained a copyright on the Sherlock Holmes character (as
well as his distinctive likeness from the classic Strand illustrations).
Manuscripts and artwork (as well as characters, in the method I described) are
copyrighted by the act of creation. However, you can register your copyrights
by sending in a copy and a fee to the government. This doesn't make the
copyright any more official; however, it does give you the right to sue anyone
who unsuccessfully challenges your copyright in an attempt to recover your
court costs for defending the copyright (without registration, such a suit
would be thrown out prima facie).
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo dnai.com from lizard@dnai.com server @dnai.com ip 207.181.194.98
X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 16:42:42 -0700
To: "Andreano, Keith HIM,VA" <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com&>
"'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com>
Subject: RE: Copywrighting characters. (!)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 03:34 PM 5/8/98 -0500, Andreano, Keith HIM,VA wrote:
>Hmmmm... Villain idea: The Bureaucrat!
>Any ideas as to his powers? ^_^;
>
10d6 Entangle, Red Tape.
5d6 INT drain, confusing forms.
Teleport, Usable Against Others("No sir, you'll have to go to the OTHER
office. It's downtown.")
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 17:08:45 -0700
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Copywrighting characters. (!)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 05:15 PM 5/8/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>Bob Greenwade writes:
>
>> If one cannot copyright a character, then why did the Conan Doyle
>> estate sue Paramount over the use of the Sherlock Holmes characters in
>> "Star Trek: the Next Generation"?
>
>If I am not mistaken, it is not so much that the estate sued over the
>character, it is that it sued over the use of copyrighted works that
>include the character or the likeness of the character. It is probably the
>same way that Paramount sued Antarctic Press and Altier Lana over "Star
>Trekker".
That's a pretty good answer (and one I wish you'd given the last time
this subject was brought up).
Actually, having looked through the "Ten Myths" websites that a couple
of people posted, it seems to have more to do with the "derivative works"
clause (apparently instituted in 1989) than in a question of character vs
likeness of a character.
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 17:16:34 -0700
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Copywrighting characters. (!)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 07:32 PM 5/8/1998 EDT, Hero Games wrote:
>Manuscripts and artwork (as well as characters, in the method I described)
are
>copyrighted by the act of creation. However, you can register your copyrights
>by sending in a copy and a fee to the government. This doesn't make the
>copyright any more official; however, it does give you the right to sue
anyone
>who unsuccessfully challenges your copyright in an attempt to recover your
>court costs for defending the copyright (without registration, such a suit
>would be thrown out prima facie).
Just incidentally, the last time I looked the fee was $10, and could
include a collection of similar works (that is, you can copyright a song
for $10, or you could put that song into a folio of ten, twelve, or even
more and copyright them all for that same $10). It's been a while, so that
may have gone up.
Oh, and thanks for the well-informed response to this question, Steve.
:-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo imo24.mx.aol.com from goldrushg@aol.com server @imo24.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.68
From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 21:49:30 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: Copywrighting characters. (!)
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
<< The Marxist money stealing federal socialist totalitarian state strikes
again! >>
Actually, though I didn't state it, the $275 is for one of the Patent & TM
attorneys to research if a similar mark is in use and make a decision on your
application. So it's not as if the money is for "nothing," per se.' ;) Of
course, you can do your own search, through any state library and even some
online services. But sometimes those wacky attorneys can decline an
application request for some seemingly weird reasons, believe me. :/
Mark @ GRG
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Copywrighting characters. (!)
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 08 May 1998 21:49:37 -0400
Lines: 26
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hero Games writes:
> (without registration, such a suit would be thrown out prima facie).
I dunnow that it would be thrown out so much as never getting to court in
the first place. You cannot sue under the Copyright Act of 1976, but you
can get legal injunction against the offender. You just cannot get money
out of him; for that you need to register the copyright.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNVO2MJ6VRH7BJMxHAQGFkAQAw0uQGjiYwJfDqHOIdJDPplC42Ta4x7av
xR1lWsOkf6GOw1x7513d69w8VYafGTkcJz2RdJkcn7J3BHwwNtYj6LCKg76ml3D5
xAjBD1moPShT+2qTpul05nfUaKm+VumcPYEV/u51EEIRG85uBFCQnxf3t5FsAXWA
l5qagJUQ8W8=
=C0Ti
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete.
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \
\
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo prescienttech.com from ratinox@peorth.gweep.net server @londo.prescienttech.com ip 199.103.216.62
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Copywrighting characters. (!)
Mail-Copies-To: never
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Attribution: Rat
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade
Date: 08 May 1998 21:52:48 -0400
Lines: 28
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Bob Greenwade writes:
> Actually, having looked through the "Ten Myths" websites that a couple
> of people posted, it seems to have more to do with the "derivative works"
> clause (apparently instituted in 1989) than in a question of character vs
> likeness of a character.
Could be. Like I said, I'm not a lawyer (and by the by, tort requires that
you state that when providing legal advice if you are not a barred lawyer).
What I know tends towards the Copyright Act of 1976 itself and fair use.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a
Charset: noconv
iQCVAwUBNVO26J6VRH7BJMxHAQG1mgP+O6unuWbx0yWwtCI3hkIbtb3HqT2IZjq0
JDwKwIAhqzNItNpqFNlQLImC0LoZUDVMcCIhE64Lt/HS9+72Qx4AhgPVsANH5zuq
jMEM8Ct/OdFkKSY5crAob0n+hSiuZ7JS4WU6vlo091k3ndtHq2G4pFBmpNGfPlbX
Y3aDv/YDlyY=
=AP2X
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core,
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should
\ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo magic.cyberone.com.au from rholding@actonline.com.au server root@c1-www.ispsys.net ip 210.8.19.250
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 18:56:09 -0700
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au>
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Buy a few points of invisible TK with fine manipulation. Then go
out and win some major golf tournements sinking those monster puts.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Ricky Holding Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play
-----------------------------------------------------------
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo mh2.cts.com from rowland@cts.com server root@mh2.cts.com ip 205.163.24.68
From: "WG Rowland" <rowland@cts.com>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: PBEM game
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 18:58:17 -0700
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Can anyone direct me on a way to find a PBeM game (preferrably Champions
or Fantasy Hero) that is currently looking for people? I'm new to PBeM, and
so far all of my searching has led to interresting accounts of closed
games..
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 21:23:34 -0500
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>>5 Cramming
>>5 Wealth (Well Off, up to $500K/year)
>>5 Ranged Sense: Taste
>
> For that matter:
>
>10 Wealth
> 5 Diplomatic Immunity
>
> Or even:
>
>15 World Emperor
I puzzled over the phrase "for that matter" for a couple of minutes,
thinking it implied some sort of connection or similarity between my
selections and Bob's, then decided I was reading too much into things and
most likely no such connection was implied.
I can't see that I personally would have any use for Diplomatic Immunity,
and if I had chosen such a thing I'd have added the Traveler Skill Enhancer
and a Passport...let's see, that would total 9 points. I'd still like to
have Cramming, but the 5-point Wealth level probably makes more sense if a
lot of travel is expected. Nope, given this set to play with, I'd take
Cramming, Wealth, Passport, Traveler and probably a 1-point [disease]
Immunity and dump the Diplomatic Immunity. I just don't see myself needing
that for anything.
World Emperor? Feh. Much too big a headache. I see that as a 15-point
Disadvantage rather than something I should want to buy.
Damon
-----------------------
Money is the root of all evil, and yet it is such a useful root that
we cannot get on without it any more than we can without potatoes.
-- Louisa May Alcott
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo mail.interhop.net from jprins@interhop.net server root@mail.interhop.net ip 204.50.138.29
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 22:33:05 -0400 (EDT)
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins)
Subject: Re: PBEM game
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Can anyone direct me on a way to find a PBeM game (preferrably Champions
>or Fantasy Hero) that is currently looking for people? I'm new to PBeM, and
>so far all of my searching has led to interresting accounts of closed
>games..
Heh, heh, heh. Please don't be offended, but this is kind of a hopeless
quest. 99(.99999)% of all PBEM games fill up their slots within days of
their inception, and the only way to 'join' the game is to become a
spectator and wait for someone to drop out (and then fight tooth and nail
for that slot with the other spectators). In general, PBEMs don't go looking
for people to join; they have to fight people off after the initial
cattlecall. All they have to do is say "I'm starting a game!" and they get
swamped with applicants.
So your only real chance is if someone is _right_now_ starting up a
Champions/HERO PBEM game. The good news is that if you're on this list
you'll hear about that sort of thing right quick - the bad news is so will
everyone else on the list and they don't waste time.
The only 100% reliable solution is to start your own PBEM game.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!"
-Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
John D. Prins and Ron Prins
jprins@interhop.net
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo dub-img-6.compuserve.com from morfhis@compuserve.com server @dub-img-6.compuserve.com ip 149.174.206.136
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 23:25:01 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Content-Disposition: inline
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id XAA14367
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> I think wings would be excellent, and just to maximize our cost
> return, and stay within The Rules, add X2 END for another -1/2 lim.
> That'd give 15" flight (30" noncombat), and heck with enough use, my END
> would increase anyway, eventually...
Not me -- I'd rather stay up for a long time than get extra velocity and,
at 6 END a phase, I'd fall from exhaustion before long. On the plus side,
at least I wouldn't fall from any great height :-)! I would rather take
Extra Time or Concentration (to start only), and tack on 1/2 END Cost to
boot.
Okay, here's my final decision:
13 Multipower (26 active points); Restrainable (wings),
-1/2; Full Phase delay (-1/4), Concentrate:
1/2 DCV to start.
1 u. 13" Flight
1 u. 26" Gliding
This would give me almost 20 mph flight and just shy of 40 mph gliding
(assuming I have a Speed of 2...). I could definitely live with that!
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo dub-img-5.compuserve.com from morfhis@compuserve.com server @dub-img-5.compuserve.com ip 149.174.206.135
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 00:03:37 -0400
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Content-Disposition: inline
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id AAA15710
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> At least one other person did think of it, and both of you apparently
> failed to notice the "no frameworks" caveat.
D-oh! Neither did I! That nixes my flight/gliding multipower, though I
suppose I could just get 10" of Flight and 10" of Gliding (for conserving
END) separately...
Jeff Reid
Morfhis@compuserve.com
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 23:11:54 -0500
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>Okay, here's my final decision:
>
>13 Multipower (26 active points); Restrainable (wings),
> -1/2; Full Phase delay (-1/4), Concentrate:
> 1/2 DCV to start.
>1 u. 13" Flight
>1 u. 26" Gliding
>
>This would give me almost 20 mph flight and just shy of 40 mph gliding
>(assuming I have a Speed of 2...). I could definitely live with that!
This is at least the third power framework to be described, and also
exceeds -1 in total Limitations. Apparently, for many people, the answer
to the challenge --
You have 15 extra points, because you're an RPG player... now go
spend it. Caveats: no more than -1 limitation total on powers,
no frameworks, and you do have "Normal Charactersitics Maxima".
-- is "Well, first, I'd ignore those parameters."
C'est la jeu.
Damon
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/ |
| Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines |
| Worthy Causes -- Computer -- Atlanta -- All Human Knowledge |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo scud.pronet.net.au from cgtmljon@pronet.net.au server @scud.pronet.net.au ip 203.34.103.243
Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Lurking in web games
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 14:23:31 +1000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>
> That sounds great, and that's what I'd want if I were a player. I was
just
> saying that as a Lurker I'd like to be able to see what's going on in a
> campaign without reading pages of characters talking back and forth, just
> to make it a better story. I certainly see the value of that, but the
> short story form gets in the way of me gleaning ideas from a campaign.
>
Well the 'tabletop' notes won't really include dialogue, by 'ic' i mean
that they'll be filled out like a field report, as opposed to a gm's
overview.
> >>You mean hero 4e or champs 4e?<<
>
> I was talking about Champions 4E, meaning classic superhero using the 4E
> HSR (as opposed to classic superhero using Fuzion). Actually, I don't
even
> care that much...I'd play in a Fuzion game, just 'cause it would finally
> get me to read the rule section and make a judgement. I've been leaving
it
> hanging in limbo because my initial impressions were pretty bad (what do
> you mean I have to make powers in 4E and then convert to Fuzion?!).
Well, i happen to despice fuzion, in any event i hope you find a good
superheroic game out there somewhere....
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo scud.pronet.net.au from cgtmljon@pronet.net.au server @scud.pronet.net.au ip 203.34.103.243
Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Lurking in web games
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 14:23:31 +1000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
>
> That sounds great, and that's what I'd want if I were a player. I was
just
> saying that as a Lurker I'd like to be able to see what's going on in a
> campaign without reading pages of characters talking back and forth, just
> to make it a better story. I certainly see the value of that, but the
> short story form gets in the way of me gleaning ideas from a campaign.
>
Well the 'tabletop' notes won't really include dialogue, by 'ic' i mean
that they'll be filled out like a field report, as opposed to a gm's
overview.
> >>You mean hero 4e or champs 4e?<<
>
> I was talking about Champions 4E, meaning classic superhero using the 4E
> HSR (as opposed to classic superhero using Fuzion). Actually, I don't
even
> care that much...I'd play in a Fuzion game, just 'cause it would finally
> get me to read the rule section and make a judgement. I've been leaving
it
> hanging in limbo because my initial impressions were pretty bad (what do
> you mean I have to make powers in 4E and then convert to Fuzion?!).
Well, i happen to despice fuzion, in any event i hope you find a good
superheroic game out there somewhere....
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo scud.pronet.net.au from cgtmljon@pronet.net.au server @scud.pronet.net.au ip 203.34.103.243
Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: PBEM game
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 14:40:58 +1000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> Can anyone direct me on a way to find a PBeM game (preferrably
Champions
> or Fantasy Hero) that is currently looking for people? I'm new to PBeM,
and
> so far all of my searching has led to interresting accounts of closed
> games..
>
>
>
heh. Core Alpha pbem- an aquired taste to be sure:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/3306/Pbem.htm
Core Alpha PbEm
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/3306/Main.htm
Core Alpha Main
Right now the main page is not officially open, but there's lots of
background and
a few npc's done i hero format. We will be launching the page (along with
full pbem data) in about a week or two.
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo scud.pronet.net.au from cgtmljon@pronet.net.au server @scud.pronet.net.au ip 203.34.103.243
Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: PBEM game
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 14:42:53 +1000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
> So your only real chance is if someone is _right_now_ starting up a
> Champions/HERO PBEM game. The good news is that if you're on this list
> you'll hear about that sort of thing right quick - the bad news is so
will
> everyone else on the list and they don't waste time.
>
> The only 100% reliable solution is to start your own PBEM game.
>
yup that's what i did :->~
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Labyrinth/3306/Pbem.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo scud.pronet.net.au from cgtmljon@pronet.net.au server @scud.pronet.net.au ip 203.34.103.243
Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au>
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au>
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: Re: Copywrighting characters. (!)
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 14:48:06 +1000
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
----------
> From: Andreano, Keith HIM,VA <andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com>
> To: 'Champions' <champ-l@sysabend.org>
> Subject: RE: Copywrighting characters. (!)
> Date: Saturday, May 09, 1998 6:34 AM
>
> Hmmmm... Villain idea: The Bureaucrat!
> Any ideas as to his powers? ^_^;
>
20 pts pd- 'stuffed shirt',
600pts flash defence vs hearing
change environment- 'stuffy and throat-constricting officiousness'
(school princibles have the same power)
desolid vs mental - 'continually missing the point of a sinple request
for information'
> ^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;^_^;^o^;
> "No flames please, once burnt at the stake, twice shy!"
> - Joan of Arc's .sig
> Keith "Puma" Andreano andreak@vapo1.him.unisys.com
>
>
>
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo radius1.teleport.com from cptspith@teleport.com server @radius1.teleport.com ip 192.108.254.35
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 00:45:16 -0700
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com>
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com
Organization: Satan's Children
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Re: what would you do to yourself with 15 points?
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote:
>
> >Okay, here's my final decision:
> >
> >13 Multipower (26 active points); Restrainable (wings),
> > -1/2; Full Phase delay (-1/4), Concentrate:
> > 1/2 DCV to start.
> >1 u. 13" Flight
> >1 u. 26" Gliding
> >
> >This would give me almost 20 mph flight and just shy of 40 mph gliding
> >(assuming I have a Speed of 2...). I could definitely live with that!
Actually, I have to re-do mine; the suggestion of noncombat multiples
made me realize; "how the hell often would I need my full DCV when I'm
flying, anyway?" So,
6" flight, X4 noncombat multiple, foulable wings (-1/2) for 22
active, 15 real.
That gives me a maximum of 48"/phase noncombat for 1 END!
> This is at least the third power framework to be described, and also
> exceeds -1 in total Limitations. Apparently, for many people, the answer
> to the challenge --
>
> You have 15 extra points, because you're an RPG player... now go
> spend it. Caveats: no more than -1 limitation total on powers,
> no frameworks, and you do have "Normal Charactersitics Maxima".
>
> -- is "Well, first, I'd ignore those parameters."
Oh, please! People just get carried away, and forget to read the
original post thoroughly before giving themselves POWER!
>
> C'est la jeu.
>
> Damon
>
>
>
> |--------------------------------------------------------------------|
> |****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************|
> |--------------------------------------------------------------------|
> |Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/ |
> | Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines |
> | Worthy Causes -- Computer -- Atlanta -- All Human Knowledge |
> |--------------------------------------------------------------------|
--
-Capt. Spith
Savior of Humanity
Secular Messiah
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo vector.wantree.com.au from gazza@wantree.com.au server root@vector.wantree.com.au ip 203.63.10.1
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 20:52:26 +0800
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au>
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au
Organization: Only One Inc.
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
Subject: I am returning...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
This is a combination 'test message' and announcement. It
announces that I am returning (by popular request :-) ) to the
Champions mailing list. And it is a test, in that once I see this
message I'll know I've arrived.
Some of you may remember GAZZA - others, perhaps not.
I intend to lurk for a short time to see where my opinions/
suggestions/ideas might be best applied, and then I'm
looking forward to contributing. I just hope there are some
of you here that I still remember.
--
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza)
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment."
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo imo16.mx.aol.com from stevel1979@aol.com server @imo16.mx.aol.com ip 198.81.17.38
From: SteveL1979 <SteveL1979@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 08:56:11 EDT
To: champ-l@sysabend.org
Subject: Update
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
Hi, guys. Just wanted to let you know, in case you're curious, that I'm
making good progress on the 5th Ed. So far I seem to be on track to meet the
deadlines involved.
I'm going to be taking a break from 5th Ed., and from this list (assuming I
can accomplish a sign-off :) ), because of a two-week business trip to Los
Angeles. I'll sign back on when I return. If any of you have any ideas for
5th Ed. you think are really good ones, please send 'em to me directly or save
them until I get back and can see them on the list.
Thanx!
Steve Long
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo hotline.klock.com from bob.greenwade@klock.com server @hotline.klock.com ip 198.68.19.64
X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com (Unverified)
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 06:09:25 -0700
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org>
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com>
Subject: Re: I am returning...
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
At 08:52 PM 5/9/1998 +0800, GAZZA wrote:
>This is a combination 'test message' and announcement. It
>announces that I am returning (by popular request :-) ) to the
>Champions mailing list. And it is a test, in that once I see this
>message I'll know I've arrived.
>
>Some of you may remember GAZZA - others, perhaps not.
>I intend to lurk for a short time to see where my opinions/
>suggestions/ideas might be best applied, and then I'm
>looking forward to contributing. I just hope there are some
>of you here that I still remember.
Well, you sure ought to remember me.... and it's great to have you
back, Gazza!
(I even remember your real name... shhhhhh!) ;-]
---
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page! [Circle of HEROs member]
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring! (Wanna join?)
http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm
Return-Path: <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org>
X-Authentication-Warning: beelzebubba.sysabend.org: majordom set sender to owner-champ-l@sysabend.org using -f
X-SMTP: helo legend.sat.txdirect.net from griffin@txdirect.net server root@legend.sat.txdirect.net ip 209.142.64.2
X-Sender: griffin@mail.txdirect.net
Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 08:11:28 -0500
To: hero-l@sysabend.org
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net>
Subject: Alternative to END Reserve
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org
It seems to me that an END Reserve generally stores energy of some sort,
whether it's the biological energy of a character's own END, or electrical
power or whatever. I think I want to use something which would be similar,
but which would store consumable material goods instead of energy. This
first came up when I was trying to build an escape pod for a spaceship.
The pod would have limited amounts of food, water, air and electrical power
for heat.
A standard END Reserve can be used for the electrical batteries, but they'd
either have to (a) be defined as having REC (which I wouldn't want to do,
since typically a battery just fades during use, recharging only if
connected to a generator of some type, which the escape pod would not
have), (b) be given huge amounts of END so that the onboard Life Support
would last any length of time, or (c) constructed in some way that would
allow END to be consumed at a slower than usual rate.
I know there are all sorts of easy ways to avoid this whole thing. Life
Support is Persistent and doesn't normally use END anyway, so I could
ignore the END Reserve and just use LS. That, however, would allow for an
indefinite supply of food, water, air and heat. I could apply a generic
Limitation to the LS, something like "Only lasts for one week" but the
value of that Limitation would vary depending on how likely you were, on
average, to be rescued during that week. Also, how long it lasts might
well depend on how many people were on board the pod. The total
food/water/air available is fixed, but the rate of consumption would vary
with the number of people in the pod. I also thought about using Charges
of LS, but as is often the case with Charges, especially Continuing, any
reasonable number of them turns into an Advantage rather than a Limitation;
it makes no sense to pay more for an escape pod that will keep you alive
for 10 days than you'd have to pay for one than would sustain you
indefinitely.
Materiel Reserves should probably only be used to supply consumable
resources to systems that don't use END, thus allowing for a kind of time
limit or life span, based directly on the consumption of those resources,
for a Power that would otherwise go on forever. On the other hand, it is
easy to think of using such a Reserve for fuel, and Movement usually costs
END, and so would probably be better handled using the normal END Reserve.
A Material Reserve (based on END Reserve) would allow the character to set
up an independant supply of fuel, food, water, air or anything else the GM
may approve. It would be intended for use with tangible consumables rather
than energy, and should not be used if END Reserve will readily work
instead. It could not be used for devices or foci (as a way of getting a
cheap equipment pool) or as a cheap way to obtain Charges or Clips of
Charges for weapons. Closely related items, like food and water, might be
grouped together within the Reserve as a single Unit type, but in most
cases only one substance or type of thing could occupy a single Reserve.
If you have a Food & Water Supply Reserve, it is probably not appropriate
to have LS vs. eating. The Supply Reserve will act as an LS with a limited
duration (unless it has a REC).
To set up a Materiel Reserve a character purchases Units (of fuel, food or
whatever) and in most cases "REC". Each Unit costs 1 character point and
is assumed to be sufficient to supply one character (or vehicle) for one
day, though if the GM and player agree the Units can last for one hour, or
whatever time period is both convenient and appropriate. The GM should
adjust the unit costs as he sees fit for
Materiel Reserves held by Bases, on the assumption that a Base will usually
consume far more of anything than a single character or vehicle.
Food, water, fuel and so forth are often not recoverable "in the field", so
the Materiel Reserve will sometimes have 0 REC (or a REC with the
Limitation that it can only recover at a base, fuel depot, air compressor,
grocery store or whatever is appropriate to the type of materiel in the
Reserve. However, there are cases where a Base or Vehicle routinely
manufactures and replenishes its own supplies. A space ship, for example,
might run on ionized hydrogen and be able to synthesize additional fuel
from water. Such a system might use the free oxygen thus created to
replenish the ship's air supply as well. In this case both the Air Reserve
and the Fuel Reserve would have REC. 1 point of REC costs 1 character
point. The usual rate of return (daily) could be moved up or down the Time
Chart for a -1/2 Limitation or a + 1/2 Advantage on the REC, as
appropriate, but the recovery rate could not be more frequent than once per
Turn. The player would have to define some source for the recovered
supplies; you can't create something from nothing. Normally, Aid, Transfer
and Absorption could not be used to feed supply Units into a Reserve, since
the Materiel Reserve is assumed to be handling tangible goods rather than
forms of energy. If you can think of an exception to this, and your GM
will buy it, more power to you.
Unlike END Reserves, at least some Materiel Reserves could be "stretched"
by going on half-rations, driving more highway miles and fewer in-city
miles, etc. I can't decide whether to make that option an Advantage or the
default condition (with a Limitation available if you *can't* stretch usage
to double the usual number of time periods).
There is probably little incentive to use a Materiel Reserve as a fuel
supply; this is one of those cases where END Reserve should work just fine
as is. It is included here only for comparision:
Fuel Supply Reserve, 10 Units, REC 2 Units/Minute (+1 for 4
shifts down the Time Chart, Must refill at base -2) Real Cost:
11 points
Joe's car has a gas tank which, given his normal driving
habits, will let him drive for 10 days without refuelling
(he works at home and doesn't take many long trips). The
car doesn't generate replacement fuel; he has to go to a
gas station to refill the tank. He can fill the tank in
5 minutes, a rate of about 1 gallon every 15 seconds if
his car has a 20-gallon tank.
Air Supply Reserve, 4 Units (one Unit/hour), REC 4 Units/hour
(Must refill at base -2) Real Cost: 5
Joe's SCUBA tanks will hold enough air to last for four hours
at a normal level of activity. The tanks do not refill by
themselves, they must be connected to an air compressor or
other device to pump oxygen back into them. The tanks can
be completely refilled in an hour, ready for reuse.
Looking at what's *intended* above, rather than what's actually in place so
far, and realizing that the concept is not particularly well defined yet,
is this both legitimate and sufficiently distinct from END Reserve to
warrant its use? At this point, please address the CONCEPT as well as the
present EXECUTION of the idea. I rather expect most people will think this
is a waste of time, and I know you will feel free to say so, but I would
also like to hear constructive criticism from those people (if any) who
think the notion may possibly have some small merit.
And please remember to cut the parts of the above you aren't responding to;
if you think the whole idea is a waste of time, snip the entire message.
Thanks.
Damon
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************|
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/ |
| Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines |
| Worthy Causes -- Computer -- Atlanta -- All Human Knowledge |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------|
Web Page created by Text2Web v1.3.6 by Dev Virdi
http://www.virdi.demon.co.uk/
Date: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 03:54 PM