Week Ending May 23, 1998

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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 12:25:44 +1000 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> > 
>     One thing Fuzion does have on HSR is that Fuzion uses a difficulty 
> based system for skills. I like difficulty based systems a lot and think 
> they are the wave of the future. I have even spent time and converted 
> HSR to use Fuzions difficulty based skill system. (Remember I said they 
> are very similar). It worked very well and if you want it I will send it 
> to you. 
>  
 
when it was announced i actually thought fuzion was what they said-  
a combination of interlock and hero. I wuz hoping for a nice neat litle 
system  
with hero power constructs, difficulty-based skill rolls (like stat/5 + 
skill - diif or sumt') and pretty much nothing else. I think combat *may* 
be faster in fuzion, but 
that has to do with dice methods more than general mechanics. 
 
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From: "potroast@theoven" <darkwraith@worldnet.att.net> 
To: "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Bob Greenwade" <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: You know you have a bad GM when... 
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 21:29:03 -0500 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
Well this is a bit more realistic, when his standard reply is "because I 
said so" even if all you ask is for him to repeat the damage. 
---------- 
> From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
> To: 'Champions' <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
> Subject: Re: You know you have a bad GM when... 
> Date: Friday, May 15, 1998 8:56 PM 
>  
> At 01:46 PM 5/15/1998 -0500, Andreano, Keith         HIM,VA wrote: 
> >You know you have a bad GM when: 
> > He starts doing a puppet show behind his 
> > GM screen during the game. 
> > 
> >You know you have a bad GM when: 
> > He starts a betting pool on how long 
> > the PCs will survive. 
> > 
> >You know you have a bad GM when: 
> > He comes to the game session naked. 
>  
> You know you have a bad GM when... 
>    ...his list of "vital GM equipment" includes a paper shredder. 
>    ...he insists on bringing "realistic props" to his Dark Champions 
game. 
>    ...he insists on bringing "realistic props" to his Call of Cthulhu 
game. 
>    ...he claims that he was given tonight's adventure by "the voices." 
>    ...the assistant GM wears white and carries a butterfly net. 
>    ...he calls a half-hour break so he can get his electroshock therapy. 
>    ...he insists on being addressed as Vramble Kelinjex of the Third 
House 
> of the Zephylborp Galaxy at all times -- and that's *all* times. 
>    ...he asks to see photo ID and proof of age before allowing you to 
enter. 
>    ...he draws a pentagram around the GM's table at the start of the 
> session (though he conveniently "forgets" one around the players' table). 
> --- 
> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
> Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: ErolB1 <ErolB1@aol.com> 
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 23:10:26 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: You know you have a bad GM when... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 >>You know you have a bad GM when: 
 
...he talks about converting his campaign to Senzar 
 
...he pulls out a Hand of Glory from behind his GM's screen 
 
...he makes the players take blood tests before starting a Vampire campaign 
 
...he has bloodstains on his dice 
 
...he talks about trying a "live ammo roleplaying" session 
 
...he makes the players wear 'power inhibitor collars' before he'll let them 
roll the dice 
 
Erol K. Bayburt 
Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow 
 
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Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 22:17:34 -0500 
To: hero-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Palladium-HERO conversions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Someone was asking about the second edition of Heroes Unlimited, and how 
that game might be converted to HERO.  Jason Sullivan, I think?  I now have 
HU 2nd Ed, and will be happy to answer specific questions about it offline 
if you like, but as was suggested by one or more people earlier, this is 
not a system you should try to convert.  There are things I like about it, 
but it doesn't work and play well with Hero system.  There are just too 
many differences.  HU is level-based, uses saving throws, etc., but that 
can be worked around.  One major problem is just the radically different 
approaches the two games take toward powers. 
 
HU 2nd Ed lists Stretching, for example.  It goes into detail about exactly 
how far you can stretch each body part (okay, one or two are omitted for 
the sake of good taste) and describes a number of power stunts and 
side-effect applications of the power. A Hero character with all these 
abilites would need to buy not only Stretching, but also Gliding, Missile 
Deflection, Entangle, Escape Artist, Double Jointed and several other 
things.  If you have Stretching in the Heroes Unlimited game, it is assumed 
you can do all of these things.  You might have to spend time learning the 
trick, but you don't have to acquire a new power or use up a skill slot to 
do it.  In the Hero system, you'd probably buy a half dozen or more 
Powers/Talents/Skills and put many of those things into a framework. 
 
HU also has a Sonic Speed power for mach-speed runners; automatic benefits 
include superior vision (so you can see upcoming obstacles in time to avoid 
them), extra damage from high-speed punches and kicks, etc.  And there's a 
power called Spin at High Velocity, essentially making the character a 
human top.  Benefits of that one include the deflection of missiles and gas 
attacks, tunneling (though soft earth or sand), 360 Vision while spinning, 
and other things. 
 
Apart from the usual tedium of converting a level-based system to a 
point-based system, and switching from one set of characteristics to a 
dissimilar set, conversion from HU to Hero would be a painstaking process 
of disassembling many of the gestalt HU powers and reconstructing them 
using many individual Hero powers, frameworks and (horrors!) Linked powers. 
 A whole list of powers, at a given point level, would have to replace a 
single HU power in a lot of cases.  And because of the way characters are 
created in HU, a comprehensive power like Spin at High Velocity might be 
only one of two or more Major Super Abilities the character has.  You have 
the option of randomly rolling the total number of Major and Minor Super 
Abilities, and Major and Minor Psionic Powers your character has.  No 
points are involved, so there are no worries about how to pay for such a 
character if you roll one. 
 
Rather than try a direct conversion, just take inspiration for a character 
concept from the Palladium book, then ignore the HU mechanics and build the 
character normally with Hero rules.  Much less of a headache.  Hero's 
"Radio Shack" approach to character building, selling power components to 
do-it-yourselfers for home assembly, may be its biggest strength, but it 
can make it hard to do direct conversions from games that use more 
comprehensive ability packages. 
 
Damon 
 
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Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 21:08:52 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Dale Ward <daleaward@rocketmail.com> 
Subject: Re: Forgotten Heroes 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Greetings, 
 
---Captain Spith  wrote: 
>  
>    Hey, don't forget the LIVE-ACTION Shazam/Isis hour!  Or are we going 
> for obscurity here?  How about Wonderbug - the live action (bad) copy of 
> Speed Buggy (which itself was EXCELLENT...)? 
>  
 
     Ya wanna talk about obscure classics? 
 
     How about Tobor, The Eighth Man?  A private investigator who gets himself 
beaten to the point of death by gangsters, picked up off the side of the road 
by a mad scientist who transplants his consciousness into an android body. 
     I especially liked that he could recharge his internal power supply by 
smoking his "special cigarettes"... talk about a role model for the kiddies!  :> 
 
     But, he had a GREAT set of super powers!  I think I'll see if I can put 
him into Hero stats. 
 
Dale A. Ward 
[Did Somebody Say *BLOW UP* McDonald's?] 
 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 22:16:37 -0700 
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com> 
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com 
Organization: None 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Champions artists/Soory 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
GoldRushG wrote: 
 
>    I think you folks should lighten up on Mr. Surbrook. I didn't perceive his 
> comments as being as insulting as apparently some of you did. But I think it 
> is time to let the subject drop. Al's art is good now. We like it. We hired 
> him. You'll see his work in SA:CoH. Period. ;) 
> 
>   Mark @ GRG 
 
  Okay, I didn't mean to tread on anybody. I was just saying that Al has improved 
and that his art wasn't so bad. It doesn't make my point to thump someone for 
thumping someone. So if I came across accusatory or self-rightious I apologize. 
 
Lets all play nice now eh? ;-) 
 
Chad 
(smiling while putting back all the toys that found their way into his 
pockets...) 
 
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Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 22:22:04 -0700 
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com> 
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com 
Organization: None 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: You know you have a bad GM when... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
ErolB1 wrote: 
 
>  >>You know you have a bad GM when: 
> 
> ...he talks about converting his campaign to Senzar 
> 
> ...he pulls out a Hand of Glory from behind his GM's screen 
> 
> ...he makes the players take blood tests before starting a Vampire campaign 
> 
> ...he has bloodstains on his dice 
> 
> ...he talks about trying a "live ammo roleplaying" session 
> 
> ...he makes the players wear 'power inhibitor collars' before he'll let them 
> roll the dice 
> 
> Erol K. Bayburt 
> Evil Genius for a Better Tomorrow 
 
  He tells you how great last nights session was.....and no one showed up last 
night. 
 
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 01:31:39 -0500 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net 
Organization: GM's R US 
To: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net&> Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Hero Difficulty based skills. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Kim Foster wrote: 
 
> I'm not the original questioner but I would be interested in seeing this 
> diffuiculty based system for Hero. Thank you. 
 
    No problem. I am not sure I ever even wrote this down. How I came up with 
it was simple. I am a huge Bubblegum Crisis fan. I wanted to play BGC, but 
wanted to use the HSR instead of Fuzion so I sat down and began coverting. 
    As I began to use the "official" conversion rules I began to 
notice....very odd things. Don't get me wrong, most of it worked fine. 
However, I was coming up with stuff that had 50 resistant PD and ED.....No 
way. When I sat down and worked out the numbers I came up with numbers that 
actually worked better than the "official" numbers. 
    I like difficulty based systems so, while I was converting I started to 
look at the possiblity of using the HSR and yet using the Fuzion based skill 
system. The systems are so similar I thought it might work. 
    It did...however the points were slightly off. If you converted as the 
"official" conversion says you would end up spending 5 points for each 
increase in skill level....way to high. 
    So, I came up with the table below based on the point to skill increase 
ratio used in the Hero System. 
    I don't know what you know of Fuzion so here goes. 
    In Fuzion your skill roll is Your STAT+ Your SKILL+Dice. As with Fuzion 
you have to decide wether or not you want to roll 1d10 or 3d6. I chose the 
1d10, but you could easily choose the 3d6. The only thing that changes is the 
base difficulty numbers. 
            Example: 
                    Average Joe wants to persuade his boss to give him a 
raise. You roll his prescence +     Perusuasion +  (3d6 or 1d10). If this is 
higher than the Difficulty number(probably determined by bosses ego) you 
succeed. 
 
    To figure your Stat score just create your Hero as normal. Once done take 
each stat and divide by 3 rounding down. This is your Stat Score. 
            Example: I create a scientist and give him an INT of 18, 
therefore his INT stat score is 6. 
 
    Next you buy his skill and here is were it gets tricky. Here is how I 
converted it over. 
 
Fuzion CP's/skill level    Hero System Points                Normal Hero 
Roll            Diff. Hero Level 
    1 
1                                                8 or 
less                             1 
    2 
2 
?                                      2 
    3 
3                                                11 or 
less                            3 
    4 
5                                                12 or 
less                            4 
    5 
7                                                13 or 
less                            5 
etc 
etc 
etc                                  etc 
 
    Therefore if I spend 9 points for my Scientist to have Bioengineering he 
has a Diff. Hero skill level 
of 6, very high. When my Scientist needs to roll a Bioengeeneering roll he 
rolls Int (6) + Bioengineering skill (6)  + my die roll. If I roll higher 
than the difficulty number then I succeed. 
 
    Note that I am not a mathematician or a rules monger. What do you think? 
Any suggestions? Problems? 
 
 
---------------- 
Just wantin' to have fun.... 
 
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:03:02 +0800 
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au> 
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au 
Organization: Only One Inc. 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Losing Battles (WAS RE: END: Running out of it) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> This brings up an interesting point. How often in your games do the 
> heroes loose a battle. More importantly, why do they survive after? 
> If the villains defeat the heroes, what stops them from just killing 
> them. 
 
Well - perhaps (and I'm going out on a limb here) the villains 
aren't psychos? 
 
Lots of villains - supervillains included - concentrate on 
things such as bank robberies and other 'wealth creation' 
crimes. The penalty - should you be caught and prosecuted - 
is less for theft than for murder. 
 
> Forget the "it's not 4 color excuse". ^_^; There should be a better 
> reason the PCs don't end up in a body bag the first time they lose 
> a combat with villains. I personally think this is an important point 
> that should be made in a campaign. It's easy to suspend disbelief 
> as far as super powers go, but having the villains not kill the heroes 
> when they have the chance "just because it's not 4 color" is going 
> to far (IMHO). What is everyone's take on this? Flame away! ^_^; 
 
There are many reasons, actually: 
 
- The villain doesn't want to suddenly acquire 'Hunteds' from all 
other superheroes. 
- The villain realises that if he kills THESE heroes, then the 
NEXT group of heroes may pull off the kid gloves. 
- The villain never even wanted to FIGHT the heroes; he's so glad 
that he's won that he is happy just to count his blessings and 
get the hell away. 
 
Many criminals in the real world are very hesitant about killing 
policemen; I see no reason that the logical extension of this 
principle would not also apply in the Champions universe. 
 
Of course, there are more '4-colour' reasons (deathtraps, for 
example, are a lot more difficult if you routinely slaughter your 
opponents in battle). 
 
This does not mean you should NEVER have murderous villains, of 
course, but they should be rare (and feared). 
--  
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza) 
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment." 
 
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:08:12 +0800 
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au> 
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au 
Organization: Only One Inc. 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Nur al-Allah 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> >How you choose to model these things is largely a matter of personal 
> >taste. The UM is not 'official', in any case, to those who care about 
> >such things. 
>  
> Why do you say that the UM is not official? 
 
Two main reasons: 
 
- The only 'official' Hero System rules are in the BBB (and HSR). 
Any rules introduced in supplements are optional - including the 
Hero System Almanacs. 
- In the case of the Ultimate Mentalist, all of the rules are 
explicitly STATED as being purely optional. 
--  
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza) 
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment." 
 
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:12:30 +0800 
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au> 
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au 
Organization: Only One Inc. 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: robot 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> Are there any rules about a robot having a 0 con stat? 
>  
> What would the end result of a 0 con for a robot be? 
>  
> Thanks for any help. 
 
Under the 'official' rules, and assuming the robot has the automaton 
power 'Cannot be STUNned' or 'Takes No STUN', then the only effect 
is no figured CON stats. (In general, most robots tend to have an 
END reserve, Charges, or 0 END powers, so the lack of the figured 
stats isn't really a big deal). 
 
"A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away" there was published some 
interesting house rules on Incomplete Characters. I've got a print 
out of this, but no longer have the original file (perhaps the 
creator - whose name escapes me - is still on the list?) If not, 
and if there is any desire to see these, I will type them in for 
perusal. 
--  
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza) 
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment." 
 
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From: Doc Weird <DocWeird@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 04:26:51 EDT 
To: cptspith@teleport.com, champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Forgotten Heroes 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Or the recently re-appearing  BANANNA SPLITS    
 
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:31:35 +0800 
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au> 
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au 
Organization: Only One Inc. 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Experience in RPGs (Was: Re: 15 Points) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<SNIP> 
 
> without some game mechanic for a pat on the head. My ideal RPG (which 
> Hero is otherwise pretty close to being) would have no experience  
> system as such, but rather would have a maintenance system in which  
> some abilities might decline due to disuse or age, while others might  
> improve with practice, study, or training. 
 
EG: The original "black box" Traveller? 
 
I agree that powerful heroes have long been a staple of every form 
of fiction - it's hard to imagine that Conan was ever first level, 
for example, and while Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser certainly 
improved over the years, they went from GREAT to BETTER rather than 
COMPETENT to GOOD. 
 
However, I do not agree that this is necessarily the best model for 
RPGs. Fictional characters often make "stupid" mistakes for the 
sake of the story; as they are under the control of their authors, 
they can be relied upon to conveniently "forget" about certain 
abilities for the sake of the plot. 
 
But players - as any beleagured GM will attest to - are NOT, as a 
rule, "stupid" in this fashion. They will make use of all their 
abilities to the limits (and beyond, sometimes); it is possible for 
a clever player to simply bypass many plot points with use of 
powers such as Telepathy, Clairsentience, or any of the "Stop Sign" 
powers. 
 
Novice heroes are less of a problem - it is at least AS easy to 
provide a challenge for inexperienced "weak" PCs as it is for stronger 
ones, after all. The bonus of the experience system is that the 
PLAYER becomes more experienced as well - give a novice player a 
600 point character and it's a good bet that he won't use it to 
anywhere near its full potential. OTOH, if they'd been playing that 
character since he was a 250 point novice, they'd know a lot more 
tricks. 
 
Games are not fiction. One cannot supplant the other - and while we 
may certainly draw upon one for inspiration for the other (both ways; 
many GMs have used fiction plots in their games, and many authors 
have based novels on games), we need not try to 'map' one to the 
other. 
--  
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza) 
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment." 
 
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From: Doc Weird <DocWeird@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 04:49:15 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Changing Disads 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
     
        I allow my players to change Disads through gameplay, and sometimes 
even demand it... 
 
        If they pick up a new Hunted, look at their other disads, do they 
role-play that overconfidence a full 15  pts??    cut it to 10--- 5 even   
 
        maybe they have been rolling bad lately-- 1d6 unluck  
 
       a bad hit does body dam  -- dis features  ---scar 
 
         maybe they drop a # on that berzerk  dealing w/ it 
 
        maybe after a long time, they get more tolerant of that sus or vul 
 
       Basically what I'm trying to say (not as eloquently as others) is let 
the character's growth in the story dictate what happens. If the player 
doesn't play a disad well, work one in that he will.....or better, one that he 
ALREADY IS playing. 
 
        And, most of all, work with the player to show him that this the 
growth of the character, not a 'GM Fiat'. In the long run EVERYONE will be 
happier with the game. 
 
 
----------------------------DocWeird---The Eternal Newbie 
 
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 02:31:07 -0700 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Organization: Satan's Children 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Disads gained through game play 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Lisa Hartjes wrote: 
>  
> If a PC managed to foil a villain's plans and the villain got mad enough 
> that he started Hunting the PC, how would you deal with it point-wise? 
> Would the PC get disad points for it?  Would they get extra xp's?  Would 
> they get a pat on the head and a "Way to go, you've pissed someone else 
> off."  :) 
>  
> How would you deal with it? 
 
   Basically, PCs who make new enemies through the course of an 
adventure _do_ get disad points for it; it's called Experience.  
Beginning heroes are considered (pretty much by definition) to have some 
history behind them.  Psych Crocks, Hunteds, Reputation, etc., are all 
effectively 'earned' through past experiences/adventures.  Conceptually, 
new 'Disad' acquisitions (new hunteds, reputation(s)) are balanced by 
experience points.  It can be viewed from the other direction; every new 
disadvantage gained through roleplaying yields more character points to 
spend.  While a strict accounting of this method won't actually yield 
normal XP earnings results (I'd wager), I think that's basically one of 
the best arguements for earning XP through play. 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: robot 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 01:25:03 +1000 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away" there was published some 
> interesting house rules on Incomplete Characters. I've got a print 
> out of this, but no longer have the original file (perhaps the 
> creator - whose name escapes me - is still on the list?) If not, 
> and if there is any desire to see these, I will type them in for 
> perusal. 
> --  
 
ummm. . opal, or something? i'm sure i remember a url. . . must. .. . . 
 think. . .  
 
> GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza) 
> "To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment." 
 
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From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net> 
To: "potroast@theoven" <darkwraith@worldnet.att.net&> 
        "'Champions'" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Bob Greenwade" <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: You know you have a bad GM when... 
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 11:15:17 -0500 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
> 
>Well this is a bit more realistic, when his standard reply is "because I 
>said so" even if all you ask is for him to repeat the damage. 
If you're thinking of the same person I am, the actual resonse is: "Because 
I'm the GM" 
 
 
On that note. You know you have a bad GM when he says things like: "You know 
what? I think that drain to will recover normally." 
. 
 
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 12:10:40 -0500 
From: redbf@ldd.net (bobby farris) 
Reply-To: redbf@ldd.net 
Organization: GM's R US 
To: David W Toomey <dwtoomey@juno.com> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Hero Difficulty based skills. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
David W Toomey wrote: 
 
> Instead of comparing a 3d6 roll to your skill, and using the difference 
> for degree of success, roll 3d6 and ADD the total to the skill. You wind 
> up wamting high rolls instead of low. 
> 
> Difficulty Numbers (Lifted, in modified form, from C-TNE) 
> Challenged.....16 
> Everyday........20 
> Competant.....24 
> Heroic............28 
> Incerdible.......32 
> Legendary......36 
> etc... 
> (SNIP 
 
        Actually seems simple enough. I might have to try your method. Sure 
is a lot less change from mine. The only problems I have with it are: 
        I like the skill systems where you can put any skill with any stat. 
Example: 
        I want to perform gymnastics at the olympics. Using the curren HSR I 
make one roll vs my Acrobatics. If I want to find out something about 
gymnastics maneuvers I have to have the KS: Gymnastics. 
        I like the games systems where you have one Skill, but it can be 
applied to different stats. For Example: 
                Same situation as above. Excpet this time to perfore the 
Acrobatics I roll DEX + Acrobatics. To find out something about gymnastics 
maneurvers I roll INT + Acrobatics. 
        One of my long time problem with  HSR skill is that it pre-supposses 
that a cetain skill will only be used with a certain stat. 
        Your system doesn't take this into effect, though I admit that it is 
mostly just my point of view. 
        One other thing. Your difficulty numbers seem low. An average roll 
on 3d6 is 11. Using this and your system a person with a familiarity will 
score a 19. Easily doing a challenged and almost exceeding an everyday. 
Seems like they should have more trouble doing an everday thing. 
 
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 10:32:27 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net 
To: redbf@ldd.net 
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> 
Subject: Re: Hero Difficulty based skills. 
Cc: David W Toomey <dwtoomey@juno.com&> champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:10 PM 5/17/98 -0500, bobby farris wrote: 
>David W Toomey wrote: 
> 
>> Instead of comparing a 3d6 roll to your skill, and using the difference 
>> for degree of success, roll 3d6 and ADD the total to the skill. You wind 
>> up wamting high rolls instead of low. 
>> 
>> Difficulty Numbers (Lifted, in modified form, from C-TNE) 
>> Challenged.....16 
>> Everyday........20 
>> Competant.....24 
>> Heroic............28 
>> Incerdible.......32 
>> Legendary......36 
>> etc... 
>> (SNIP 
> 
>        Actually seems simple enough. I might have to try your method. Sure 
>is a lot less change from mine. The only problems I have with it are: 
>        I like the skill systems where you can put any skill with any stat. 
>Example: 
>        I want to perform gymnastics at the olympics. Using the curren HSR I 
>make one roll vs my Acrobatics. If I want to find out something about 
>gymnastics maneuvers I have to have the KS: Gymnastics. 
>        I like the games systems where you have one Skill, but it can be 
>applied to different stats. For Example: 
>                Same situation as above. Excpet this time to perfore the 
>Acrobatics I roll DEX + Acrobatics. To find out something about gymnastics 
>maneurvers I roll INT + Acrobatics. 
>        One of my long time problem with  HSR skill is that it pre-supposses 
>that a cetain skill will only be used with a certain stat. 
>        Your system doesn't take this into effect, though I admit that it is 
>mostly just my point of view. 
>        One other thing. Your difficulty numbers seem low. An average roll 
>on 3d6 is 11. Using this and your system a person with a familiarity will 
>score a 19. Easily doing a challenged and almost exceeding an everyday. 
>Seems like they should have more trouble doing an everday thing. 
> 
> 
 
I think in Hero the diffrence between knowing and doing is handled with 
Professional and Knowledge Skills. To perform the acrobatics would be a roll 
against PS:Gymnnast 
I know violence doesn't solve all problems... 
	But it sure feels good! 
		Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior 
 
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Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 12:15:24 -0700 
From: James Jandebeur <james@javaman.to> 
To: gazza@wantree.com.au 
CC: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: robot 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
He still lurks there, poking his head in from time to time... 
 
The information you seek is at: 
 
http://www.javman.to/incomp.html 
 
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher 
 
GAZZA wrote: 
 
> "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away" there was published some 
> interesting house rules on Incomplete Characters. I've got a print 
> out of this, but no longer have the original file (perhaps the 
> creator - whose name escapes me - is still on the list?) If not, 
> and if there is any desire to see these, I will type them in for 
> perusal. 
 
 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Champions artists 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 17 May 1998 20:03:40 -0400 
Lines: 28 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
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Tim R Gilberg writes: 
 
>> Then what purpose does the "requires Climbing skill roll" serve, other 
>> than to make the power cheaper? 
 
> 	I don't know . . . maybe, say, give it a chance to fail? 
 
Then why do you need a power to do what the Climbing skill already does? 
 
Yes, it is a circular argument.  Sorry. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Champions artists 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Date: 17 May 1998 20:05:18 -0400 
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Filksinger  writes: 
 
> So the character can slip, have problems, or even fall. The idea is to 
> create "impossibly good climbing skill", not, "sticks to wall like fly". 
 
This is why we have the "Exceptional Skill" rule, that allows characters 
with exceptionally high skills to do "impossible" things with a -10 penalty 
to the roll. 
 
> Thus, a character with this variation of Clinging can climb faster than 
> Climbing allows, 
 
But this is *NOT* what the power in question is supposed to accomplish. 
This is where my disagreement arises. 
 
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--  
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                                    \  
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Climbing (was Re: Champions artists) 
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Date: 17 May 1998 20:08:38 -0400 
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Remnant  writes: 
 
> Out of curiousity, do you have a problem with RASR for any power?  or just 
> in the case of Clinging? 
 
No, my problem is with "requires a skill roll" being placed on a power that 
duplicates the effects of the skill being rolled. 
 
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From: JJP3337 <JJP3337@aol.com> 
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 22:41:14 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: You know you have a bad G.M. when.... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
special effects require the players to wear raincoats to avoid spittle 
 
the last time the party accomplished anything, it was dying 
 
side conversations by non active playersroleplaying sessions result in a 
bestselling novel 
 
 
You know you have a good G.M. when.... 
 
his last meal was a snickers bar and two six packs of jolt cola 
 
last session the players almost seemed like they were in control of their own 
destiny 
 
he remembers that Nuclear man has a 10 point disad fear of spiders...and that 
little prank morph boy played does not justify nuking morph boy 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 00:13:23 -0400 
From: boaters <boaters@mindspring.com> 
To: champs mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: robot 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
I was able to find the incomplete characters article thanks to the list.  I 
think that it is definitely a different approach.  However, it seems that 
due to the gm the robot character will now be way to many points.  Oh Well. 
 
However, the idea of incomplete characters by taking one or more 
characteristics was interesting, but I think that it can also be used to, 
too much of an advantage. 
Ex.  Not having an ego makes it hard for a mentalist to attack. 
 
Darin 
 
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From: Pat10355 <Pat10355@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 01:13:05 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Ultimate Shrinker 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 1 
 
Hi, 
 
I'm trying to build a shrinking hero for our Champions campaign, and I'm 
looking for ideas. I'd like to create the "ultimate shrinker," a la the Atom 
from DC. 
 
So far I have: 
 
Shrinking, x4 
Flight 
Desolidification (shrinks to molecular size and passes through walls) 
Extra-Dimensional Travel: Microverse (microscopic, molecular or subatomic -- 
basically, as small as I want to go) 
Find Weakness (concept: he finds"chinks in the armor," weak spots, etc., that 
a normal-sized person couldn't take advantage of) 
 
Any other "shrinker tricks" out there? 
 
Thanks, 
Patrick Sweeney 
 
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Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: "JJP3337" <JJP3337@aol.com&> <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: You know you have a good GM when... (was RE: You know you have a bad G.M. when...) 
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 22:37:53 -0700 
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> From: JJP3337 
> You know you have a good G.M. when.... 
> 
> his last meal was a snickers bar and two six packs of jolt cola 
> 
> last session the players almost seemed like they were in control of their own 
> destiny 
> 
> he remembers that Nuclear man has a 10 point disad fear of spiders...and that 
> little prank morph boy played does not justify nuking morph boy 
> 
 
When it feels natural to make sexual innuendoes to the blonde bimbo, even though the 
blonde bimbo is a large, hairy, former U.S. Marine prisoner-of-war interrogator. 
 
Filksinger 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 00:15:43 -0700 
From: James Jandebeur <james@javaman.to> 
To: champs mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: robot 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 3 
 
 
 
boaters wrote: 
 
> I was able to find the incomplete characters article thanks to the list.  I 
> think that it is definitely a different approach.  However, it seems that 
> due to the gm the robot character will now be way to many points.  Oh Well. 
 
I just wanted to clarify for my poor addled mind:  the GM of the game you 
wanted the character for, correct? 
 
> However, the idea of incomplete characters by taking one or more 
> characteristics was interesting, but I think that it can also be used to, 
> too much of an advantage. 
> Ex.  Not having an ego makes it hard for a mentalist to attack. 
 
Well, if the character has no EGO, the player cannot have his or her character 
have original thoughts, but is immune to mental attacks, according to our 
model.  In general, I wouldn't want to play such a character, though I can 
imagine someone trying it just to get the immunity.  And I'd have to be very 
sure that this wasn't the reason before allowing someone to play a character 
like this if I was running.  The idea was to make sure that the advantages and 
the disadvantages of lacking an ability were roughly equal.  Some of these may 
fail to have that balance as presented, but we are open to suggestions, and, as 
with all things (especially this - the specific rules for each of the 
characteristics you might lack are necessarily arbitrary), you can modify the 
specifics.  I merely present an overall idea (having a system for lacking 
stats), and my suggestions for what lacking each might mean. 
 
Also, keep in mind that many of these rules already exist in the game, this is 
just a formalization and abstraction of them.  Examples follow: 
 
Strength:  Spirits (one of the main reasons I thought of this to begin with) 
Dexterity:  Bases (but note that Bases tend not to have other stats, either) 
Constitution:  Robots, Computers, Vehicles 
Body:  Spirits 
Intelligence:  Vehicles 
Ego, Presence:  Robots, Computers, Vehicles 
Comliness:  Just about everything 
PD, ED:  Spirits 
Speed:  Bases, again 
Recovery, Endurance, Stun:  Robots, Computers, Vehicles (yeah, that comes up a 
lot) 
 
Should a player be allowed to use these systems?  In general, I suggest that 
the GM set up the character types that use this system (vehicles, bases, 
spirits, and so on), and decide which are appropriate to be player characters. 
Perhaps none of them are.  Perhaps a player will come up with something the GM 
didn't that fits, and will be allowed to try it out.  And if GM's are using 
these rules and abusing them in some way, well, as the final arbiter of the 
game, they could just as easily abuse any game in a myriad of other ways: 
mechanics don't matter. 
 
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher 
 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 00:39:00 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Hero System Listserv <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Disads gained through game play 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 8 
 
Lisa Hartjes wrote: 
>  
> If a PC managed to foil a villain's plans and the villain got mad enough 
> that he started Hunting the PC, how would you deal with it point-wise? 
> Would the PC get disad points for it?  Would they get extra xp's?  Would 
> they get a pat on the head and a "Way to go, you've pissed someone else 
> off."  :) 
>  
> How would you deal with it? 
 
IMHO, Hunted and Reputation usually represent experience earned in  
adventures that are part of the character's backstory.  After all, it  
generally takes more than one adventure to earn a powerful supervillain's  
undying enmity.  If you total up the adventures that led up to ruining  
Dr. Apocalypse's Master Plan, they probably come to five or ten points of  
experience: about what an 8- hunted is worth. 
 
Of course, sometimes PCs have disadvantages that the GM has not  
successfully integrated into the campaign yet.  IMO, these can be traded  
in instantaneously for something better that comes up during play.  For  
example, I had a player whose character saved the niece of the head of a  
Tong from assassins belonging to a rival faction, shielding her from the  
machine-guns with his own body.  Of course, she fell in love with him.   
He traded in a DNPC who had not yet shown up, and he took this new NPC as  
his DNPC, with my blessing. 
 
Oh, yes!  Remember that Hunters acquire a limited form of script  
immunity, while other NPCs can be disposed of once and for all.  If you  
permit your players to trade in an old hunted or other disadvantage and  
take this new guy as a Hunted, then, from a metagaming standpoint, the  
players know that he won't stay locked up in Stronghold for very long,  
and even if dead, he will come back.  Other villains are likely to stay  
dead or in jail for more reasonable periods of time. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 01:19:01 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Forgotten Heroes 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Dale Ward wrote: 
>  
>      How about Tobor, The Eighth Man?  A private investigator who gets himself 
> beaten to the point of death by gangsters, picked up off the side of the road 
> by a mad scientist who transplants his consciousness into an android body. 
 
Haven't seen this one since Johnson was President, but IIRC . . .  
 
Cue music: strong two-note bass "monster march"; vocals unison. 
 
	There's a prehistoric monster,  
	Who came from outer space, 
	Created by the Martian's, 
	To destroy the human race! 
	The FBI is helpless:  
	It's twenty stories tall! 
	What can we do?   
	Who can we call? 
 
Tempo Change: da-DUM, followed by up-tempo, vocals divisi, crescendo. 
	Call Tobor, the Eighth Man! 
	Call Tobor, the Eighth Man! 
	Faster than a rocket,  
	Quicker than a jet, 
	He's the mighty robot, 
	He's the one to get! 
	Call Tobor, the Eighth Man! 
	Quick! Call Tobor, 
	The mightiest robot of all! 
 
Climax, then decrescendo segue to storyline background. 
 
>      I especially liked that he could recharge his internal power supply by 
> smoking his "special cigarettes"... talk about a role model for the kiddies!  :> 
 
Lessee...Shapechange to any humanoid form, full phase.  As I recall, the  
change began midline and propagated bilaterally. 
 
The "cigarettes" were a temporary boost to his atomic powerplant, which  
required periodic refuelling: perhaps an AID to an END Reserve that  
recharges only under specific circumstances.  It was also a good idea for  
Tobor (the human form) not to be seen smoking on the street, as this was  
still considered somewhat disreputable, and he was at some pains to keep  
the atomic cigarettes from being smoked by others: nasty side-effect.   
 
It may be that the cigarette idea was conceived innocently by a  
scriptwriter, or there may have been tobacco company influence.  This  
was, after all, the era of Candy Cigarettes. 
 
It was also odd, fewer than 25 years after Pearl Harbor, to see signs  
lettered in Kanji in a city that was ostensibly U.S. 
 
----------------------------------- 
 
Others I remember from the era: forgive me if these have been mentioned  
in earlier incarnations of this thread. 
 
Gigantor: a giant robot controlled from a control box with two levers  
owned by a small boy. 
 
Prince Planet: his power came from his home world and was stored in a  
medallion whose reserves showed by the portion of the "P" that was  
colored in: and was hence visible to villains.  Clever, huh?  Of course,  
sending him more energy required pulling a lever back on his planet,  
and the keepers were always forgetting to pull it, so his reserves ran  
low in almost every episode. 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 03:15:04 -0600 
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Quotes at top (was RE: The Ultimate Quote) 
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I've been keeping the amusing quotes here.. anyone mind if I submit them 
to rec.humor.funny? I'd attribute the list a whole. Thanks. 
 
-Mhoram 
--  
 
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages, 
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and 
goes through their pockets.    -- Eddy Peters 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 07:08:36 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Ultimate Shrinker 
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On Mon, 18 May 1998, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote: 
 
> >Shrinking, x4 
> >Desolidification (shrinks to molecular size and passes through walls) 
> >Extra-Dimensional Travel: Microverse (microscopic, molecular or subatomic -- 
> >basically, as small as I want to go) 
> > 
> >Any other "shrinker tricks" out there? 
>  
> I think the trick of travelling the microverse while still 4.5 inches tall 
> is pretty slick.  How do you manage to shrink to "molecular size" with only 
> four levels of Shrinking? 
 
By buying Desolid defined as "shrinking to molecular size", obviously. 
 
I'd require the character to take Invisibility for this effect too, 
though. 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 07:10:33 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Champions artists 
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On 17 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> Filksinger  writes: 
>  
> > So the character can slip, have problems, or even fall. The idea is to 
> > create "impossibly good climbing skill", not, "sticks to wall like fly". 
>  
> This is why we have the "Exceptional Skill" rule, that allows characters 
> with exceptionally high skills to do "impossible" things with a -10 penalty 
> to the roll. 
 
And if you're _not_ playing in a "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"-style 
campaign? 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 07:15:24 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Experience in RPGs (Was: Re: 15 Points) 
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On Sun, 17 May 1998, GAZZA wrote: 
 
> I agree that powerful heroes have long been a staple of every form 
> of fiction - it's hard to imagine that Conan was ever first level, 
> for example, and while Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser certainly 
> improved over the years, they went from GREAT to BETTER rather than 
> COMPETENT to GOOD. 
>  
> However, I do not agree that this is necessarily the best model for 
> RPGs. Fictional characters often make "stupid" mistakes for the 
> sake of the story; as they are under the control of their authors, 
> they can be relied upon to conveniently "forget" about certain 
> abilities for the sake of the plot. 
 
This is sloppy writing, though. Good writers don't resort to this, 
and good GMs shouldn't suffer overly from players' failure to forget. 
 
> Games are not fiction. 
 
And yet, RPGs are both. 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 07:23:03 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: HSR <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
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On Fri, 15 May 1998, David Stallard wrote: 
 
> Like I said, I'm split right down the middle....  I *am* committed to a 
> re-reading of the Fuzion rules (and the errata in the 2 supplements), 
> creating a few characters, and running a mock combat, but that might be as 
> far as I go toward a conversion to Fuzion.  Since it makes sense that the 
> Fuzion mailing list would paint me a real rosy picture, I thought it was 
> only prudent to let this list either paint me a rosy picture of HSR, or 
> make the Fuzion picture less rosy. 
 
Well, I haven't been willing to make the effort to find a readable copy 
of the Fuzion rules, but from what I've heard it uses a power list rather 
than a power-construction system... which IMO makes it completely unplayable 
for the super-hero genre. For said genre, you _need_ the ability to build 
any effect you can think of. 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 07:25:54 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
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On Fri, 15 May 1998, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
 
> >Why do you think I'd be  less happy switching 
> >from Hero System Rules to Fuzion? 
>  
> Rhetorically, why are some people less happy switching from Old Coke to 
> New Coke? from Win 3.1 to Win 95? Why are '66 convertible 'vettes more 
> impressive than '96?  
>  
> The real answer is that nobody likes change. It's only when the pain of 
> staying the same is greater than the pain of changing that people accept 
> it. The Fuzioneers believe that the pain of changing to Fuzion is less 
> than the pain of learning a new system and converting all their old 
> characters. The Hero Brigade believe that the pain of sticking with a 
> system that's hard to teach to newbies is less than the pain of changing 
> ingrained Hero thinking. 
 
You don't think this is more than a little insulting? Have you perhaps 
considered that some people think Hero is just a better system? (Ie, if 
they had never plaed either system and had to choose, they'd choose Hero.) 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 06:41:29 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Ultimate Shrinker 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>Shrinking, x4 
>Desolidification (shrinks to molecular size and passes through walls) 
>Extra-Dimensional Travel: Microverse (microscopic, molecular or subatomic -- 
>basically, as small as I want to go) 
> 
>Any other "shrinker tricks" out there? 
 
I think the trick of travelling the microverse while still 4.5 inches tall 
is pretty slick.  How do you manage to shrink to "molecular size" with only 
four levels of Shrinking? 
 
Damon 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 07:10:29 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Ultimate Shrinker 
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A hydrogen atom is 10^-13 meters across.  If I've figured this correctly, 
you'd need something like 40 levels of Shrinking (400 points worth) to get 
to that size.  YMMV (your molecule may vary). 
 
Damon 
 
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From: Pat10355 <Pat10355@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 09:39:42 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Ultimate Shrinker 
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In a message dated 98-05-18 08:16:10 EDT, griffin@txdirect.net writes: 
 
<< A hydrogen atom is 10^-13 meters across.  If I've figured this correctly, 
 you'd need something like 40 levels of Shrinking (400 points worth) to get 
 to that size.  YMMV (your molecule may vary). >> 
 
Which is why I bought it as Extra-Dimensional Travel: Microverse. Buying 
enough Shrinking to get that small is silly, as well as being impossible in 
any kind of point-balanced campaign. 
 
Frankly, I see being able to shrink down to the size of a molecule or atom as 
not being terribly useful ... although quite cool. Oh sure, a PC could get in 
someone's bloodstream and start attacking blood cells ... in about a year or 
so he might do enough damage to hurt the villain. I guess a subatomic-sized PC 
could shove atoms around or something -- whoopty-do. 
 
I think purchasing it as Extra-Dimensional Travel: Microverse is a good way to 
approximate this neat comic book special effect, for a reasonable cost vs. 
benefit ratio. 
 
Patrick Sweeney 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Losing Battles (WAS RE: END: Running out of it) 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 09:58:33 -0400 
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On Sunday, May 17, 1998 4:03 AM, GAZZA [SMTP:gazza@wantree.com.au] wrote: 
>  
> This does not mean you should NEVER have murderous villains, of 
> course, but they should be rare (and feared). 
> --  
> GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza) 
> "To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment." 
 
This is what makes the "new and improved" Eurostar so feared in my game. 
They are some of the very few villains who have absolutely no compunctions 
about killing.  To accomplish their goals and/or escape, they will happily 
kill hostages and by-standers, cops and heroes.  The mere mention of their 
name starts my PC's giving each other that  "Oh, crap! Not them!"  look. 
 
Jason Goode 
  
 
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: Ultimate Shrinker 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 06:58:54 -0700 
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For lots of Shinking (and Growth) tricks, check out 
http://www.haymaker.org/haym15.html 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.haymaker.org 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 09:20:13 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Ultimate Shrinker 
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On Mon, 18 May 1998, Pat10355 wrote: 
> In a message dated 98-05-18 08:16:10 EDT, griffin@txdirect.net writes: 
>  
> << A hydrogen atom is 10^-13 meters across.  If I've figured this correctly, 
>  you'd need something like 40 levels of Shrinking (400 points worth) to get 
>  to that size.  YMMV (your molecule may vary). >> 
>  
> Which is why I bought it as Extra-Dimensional Travel: Microverse. Buying 
> enough Shrinking to get that small is silly, as well as being impossible in 
> any kind of point-balanced campaign. 
 
You /could/ reasonably achieve it (if you wanted to) by partially limiting 
shrinking.  The first 4 levels would be without limitations, and 
successive levels could have things like extra time (takes a while to 
shrink down that far), Concnetration (have to think about it to shrink 
down that far), or maybe even Requires a Skill Roll if you're still 
learning how to control the power. 
 
As it is, you can shrink down to 4" and then 
  
> Frankly, I see being able to shrink down to the size of a molecule or atom as 
> not being terribly useful ... although quite cool. Oh sure, a PC could get in 
> someone's bloodstream and start attacking blood cells ... in about a year or 
> so he might do enough damage to hurt the villain. 
 
Of course, he could also get in the victim's bloodstream (assuming life 
support), travel to the aorta, and unshrink - either fully (exploding 
outward through his chest - yuck) or just enough to block the flow of 
blood, causing a heart attack. I think this would be some sort of NND, 
does BODY... 
 
It isn't very four-color, of course. 
 
> I think purchasing it as Extra-Dimensional Travel: Microverse is a good way to 
> approximate this neat comic book special effect, for a reasonable cost vs. 
> benefit ratio. 
 
It also solves the problem of 'hey, Small Boy is the size of an atom, how 
come he can run as fast as the rest of us?' 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 16:49:18 +0200 
From: Rog <uraeus@bunt.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: ABCJr Hero 
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Hi, I was wondering if anyone here had tried to do 
anything with the world of the unfortunatly canceled 
TV show, The Adventures of Brisco County, Jr. 
 
Characters (Brisco, Lord Bowler, Pete), devices  
(The Orb, Pete's piece), etc. 
 
I've always considered ABCJr one of the more enjoyable 
cross-genre shows done and wish FOX had stuck with it 
like they did with the X-Files (both started at the same 
time and look where the X-Files is today). 
 
Anyway,anyone done anything with this?  If not, I may 
try to create something.  It will take awhile, all my 
ABCJR tapes went missing (read: stolen) along with all 
my CDs when I moved, so I'll have to do research via the 
Net on all the chars' skills and such. 
 
 
Thanks in advance, 
-Roger 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 07:57:21 -0700 (PDT) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net 
Subject: Re: Ultimate Shrinker 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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---Pat10355  wrote: 
> 
> Hi, 
>  
> I'm trying to build a shrinking hero for our Champions campaign, and 
I'm 
> looking for ideas. I'd like to create the "ultimate shrinker," a la 
the Atom 
> from DC. 
>  
> So far I have: 
>  
> Shrinking, x4 
> Flight 
> Desolidification (shrinks to molecular size and passes through walls) 
> Extra-Dimensional Travel: Microverse (microscopic, molecular or 
subatomic -- 
> basically, as small as I want to go) 
> Find Weakness (concept: he finds"chinks in the armor," weak spots, 
etc., that 
> a normal-sized person couldn't take advantage of) 
>  
> Any other "shrinker tricks" out there? 
 
Teleportation. only through electrical lines (the Atom's trick of 
travelling through  phone lines and power lines). [I'd add in a couple 
of memorized locations and a couple of floating locations] 
 
Density Increase, scaled to Shrinking - maintain your full mass while 
shrunk (the Atom's "180 pound punch").  [btw, that three levels DI per 
1 level shrinking]. 
 
 
 
 
-=John D. 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: ABCJr Hero 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 08:10:12 -0700 
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I wasn't in a Brisco game per se, but the Western Horror game I was in 
last year had a very similar feel to it. Except instead of time-travel, 
rockets, and science fiction, we encountered was ghosts, magic, and 
dinosaurs living the Grand Canyon. 
 
I played a snake oil salesman who posed as a Quaker minister since he 
was on the run from the law. We had quite a mixture of characters -- 
runaway slaves, grave diggers, ranchers, a psychic Injun child, a rare 
book thief, etc. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.haymaker.org 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 08:12:16 -0700 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: ABCJr Hero 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Rog wrote: 
>  
> Anyway,anyone done anything with this?  If not, I may 
> try to create something.  It will take awhile, all my 
> ABCJR tapes went missing (read: stolen) along with all 
> my CDs when I moved, so I'll have to do research via the 
> Net on all the chars' skills and such. 
 
Great show. Wish you luck with the conversions.  Try to find someone 
with access to the sci-fi channel.  I caught an episode last week on 
there.  I was really jazzed.  Makes me almost want to get cable when I 
move, but I've sworn off TCI. 
 
-Mark Lemming 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 08:17:56 -0700 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Forgotten Heroes 
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Robert A. West wrote: 
>  
> It may be that the cigarette idea was conceived innocently by a 
> scriptwriter, or there may have been tobacco company influence.  This 
> was, after all, the era of Candy Cigarettes. 
 
Quick note: You can still get candy & chocolate cigars & cigarettes.  My 
favorite is Aerobics brand. 
 
Was it Marine boy that had the aqua gum? 
 
-Mark Lemming 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 11:28:07 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: john.desmarais@ibm.net 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Ultimate Shrinker 
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On Mon, 18 May 1998, John Desmarais wrote: 
 
> Density Increase, scaled to Shrinking - maintain your full mass while 
> shrunk (the Atom's "180 pound punch").  [btw, that three levels DI per 
> 1 level shrinking]. 
 
Actually, this will make you /much/ stronger when shrunk, so you might not 
want to use that - I don't believe that the Atom got any stronger, it's 
just that he kept his normal strength level even when he was an inch or 
two tall. 
 
Using your trick, if I shrank down to 4 inches (about 4 levels of 
shrinking) I'd have STR 70, and be tossing cars around. 
 
Keeping your full mass could be done as a 'special effect' of Knockback 
Resistance (buying off the increased kb for shrinking), possibly combined 
with the Phys Lim 'retains full mass when shrunk' - this makes it 
difficult for people to conveniently pick you up and carry you, etc.  
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
 
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Reply-To: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com> 
From: "Lisa Hartjes" <beren@unforgettable.com> 
To: "Hero Listserve" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: OT:  Need some help 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 12:30:56 -0400 
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Hi, and sorry to be taking up bandwidth on the Hero List. 
 
Due to circumstances beyond my control, my mail reader got reinstalled and I 
have lost *everything* that I had saved, including my address book.  Could 
those people involved in (or lurked in) my pbem's please send me an email so 
I can get their addresses. 
 
 
Thanks! 
 
Lisa Hartjes 
beren@unforgettable.com 
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/daniken/79/ 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:21:35 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Forgotten Heroes 
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On Mon, 18 May 1998, Mark Lemming wrote: 
 
> Was it Marine boy that had the aqua gum? 
 
Yup. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
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*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 10:27:52 -0700 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: ABCJr Hero 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:49 PM 5/18/1998 +0200, Rog wrote: 
>Hi, I was wondering if anyone here had tried to do 
>anything with the world of the unfortunatly canceled 
>TV show, The Adventures of Brisco County, Jr. 
> 
>Characters (Brisco, Lord Bowler, Pete), devices  
>(The Orb, Pete's piece), etc. 
> 
>I've always considered ABCJr one of the more enjoyable 
>cross-genre shows done and wish FOX had stuck with it 
>like they did with the X-Files (both started at the same 
>time and look where the X-Files is today). 
> 
>Anyway,anyone done anything with this?  If not, I may 
>try to create something.  It will take awhile, all my 
>ABCJR tapes went missing (read: stolen) along with all 
>my CDs when I moved, so I'll have to do research via the 
>Net on all the chars' skills and such. 
 
   This would be a wonderful net project (assuming the producers don't have 
a problem with it, and they probably won't).  I don't know of anything 
that's ever been done with it game-wise. 
   I think the program is on one of the Turner stations (TBS or TNT) on the 
weekends.  Even if it's been taken off, there are probably plenty of 
websites giving various information (there may even be a Briscoe County 
webring). 
   Good luck to ya, and I look forward to seeing the results! 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:40:28 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by Stainless Steel Rat 
>There is no "core" Fuzion rulebook or ruleset in the same sense that there 
is a core Hero system.  Instead, like GURPS, there are campaign books with 
their own unique mechanics.  These mechanics tend not to be particularly 
portable between settings.< 
 
My impression of Fuzion so far is that you all of these "plug-ins" (such as 
the Mental Powers plug-in or the Martial Arts plug-in) are supposed to be 
self-contained rule modules, so you can add and subtract them at will and 
it doesn't affect the other parts of the character.  That sounds pretty 
portable to me, but really I'm just regurgitating the sales pitch...I 
haven't used Fuzion enough to have a grasp on how well it works. 
 
A bigger problem to me with the absence of a "core" rulebook is that you 
have to buy tons of books to get the plug-ins that you need in order to 
piece together whatever campaign you have in mind.  I don't think this 
would be much of a problem for me, seeing as I don't go out of my way to 
create non-published settings or whatever, but it could be a problem for 
many GMs.  I think I saw some talk on the Fuzion list that they had been 
thinking about a "core" book which I guess would contain all the published 
plug-ins to that point, but it didn't sound like something they would be 
putting together anytime soon. 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:40:37 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Cc: HSR <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by Trevor Barrie 
>Well, I haven't been willing to make the effort to find a readable copy 
of the Fuzion rules, but from what I've heard it uses a power list rather 
than a power-construction system... which IMO makes it completely 
unplayable 
for the super-hero genre. For said genre, you _need_ the ability to build 
any effect you can think of.< 
 
Not to be a Fuzion advocate (I'm still wavering in the middle), but the 
power list it uses has things like "Energy Blast", "Armor Piercing Energy 
Blast", and "Autofire Energy Blast."  So basically it has the same options 
(the common ones, anyway) as Hero, but they separate them into distinct 
powers instead of variations of one power.  Also, in the first supplement 
they introduced the idea of Adders and Limiters which are the same thing as 
Advantages and Limitations to HSR folks (for instance, Half END is an 
Adder).  It seems that Adders and Limiters bring back the complexity that 
they were trying to get away from by making distinct powers as I listed 
above, but that discussion isn't for this mailing list. 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 14:03:00 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Heroic Adventures 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Anybody have any opinions on the Heroic Adventures books (Volumes 1 and 2) 
they'd like to share? 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 11:31:37 -0700 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
>On Fri, 15 May 1998, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
> 
>> >Why do you think I'd be  less happy switching 
>> >from Hero System Rules to Fuzion? 
>>  
>> Rhetorically, why are some people less happy switching from Old Coke to 
>> New Coke? from Win 3.1 to Win 95? Why are '66 convertible 'vettes more 
>> impressive than '96?  
>>  
>> The real answer is that nobody likes change. It's only when the pain of 
>> staying the same is greater than the pain of changing that people accept 
>> it. The Fuzioneers believe that the pain of changing to Fuzion is less 
>> than the pain of learning a new system and converting all their old 
>> characters. The Hero Brigade believe that the pain of sticking with a 
>> system that's hard to teach to newbies is less than the pain of changing 
>> ingrained Hero thinking. 
> 
There's another problem -- Fuzion doesn't work. 
 
I was very hyped on the idea of Fuzion, until I saw it. I was hoping for 
the powerful metasystem and mechanics of Hero combined with the 'coolness 
factor' and good handling of machines and vehicles of the Cyberpunk/Mekton 
system. Instead, we got a system with neither a metsystem nor coolness nor 
even a good vehicle design system. We got a mess. A fatal mess, where a 
soldiers with machineguns can turn Grond into hamburger in 5.0 seconds. 
 
I really wanted to like Fuzion, but at the moment, it's not a playable 
replacement for Hero or GURPS. And based on the comments I heard recently, 
it never will be, as the 'metsystem' is to remain hidden for all time. 
 
And no RPG is easy to teach to newbies, or, perhaps, they all are. Just 
tell the newbie:"You say what your character wants to do, and I'll tell you 
what dice to roll, and whether you did it or not." 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 14:51:40 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
cc: Bruce Harlick <BruceHH@aol.com&> brucehh@earthlink.com 
Subject: Editor Found? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Dear Hero Games, 
 
has any progress been made in finding an editor for Kazei Five? 
 
Also, will any of you be in the Maryland area this year for any sort of 
gaming con?  I'd like to meet with you it that will be so. 
 
Thanks,  
 
Michael Surbrook 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 12:00:02 -0700 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
I wrote: 
> >The real answer is that nobody likes change.  
>  
Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>You don't think this is more than a little insulting? Have you perhaps 
>considered that some people think Hero is just a better system? (Ie, if 
>they had never plaed either system and had to choose, they'd choose 
Hero.) 
 
I also think it's a better system, but I do believe that the root cause 
of not even giving Fuzion a chance (I've played in both systems) is that 
in most minds, Change = Bad. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.haymaker.org 
 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 14:06:14 -0500 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
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From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David W Toomey) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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I know, this DOES have something to do with Hero4, but I don't think 
anybody 
is going to change anyone else's mind about which system is better, so 
can  
this discussion *please* be moved to private e-mail or just dropped?  
Some of us 
(well, me, at least :-)) are tired of hearing about FUZION, a system I 
own but have little interest in.  This is the Hero4 list, after 
all....... 
 
 
David W Toomey 
dwtoomey@juno.com 
 
_____________________________________________________________________ 
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. 
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com 
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: HSR <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 15:08:30 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Message text written by Trevor Barrie 
> Well, I haven't been willing to make the effort to find a readable copy 
> of the Fuzion rules, but from what I've heard it uses a power list rather 
> than a power-construction system... which IMO makes it completely 
> unplayable 
> for the super-hero genre. For said genre, you _need_ the ability to build 
> any effect you can think of. 
>  
 
Actually..... 
 
They used a powers "list" in the main book, so that it would appeal to a 
wider audience.  There are an *aweful* lot of poeple (i.e., marketshare) who 
are initially scared off by the complexity Hero4 power building system's, or 
who just don't "get it."  Since Hero4 can still be used by experienced 
players (all you have to do is divide the final cost by 5 to convert), 
they've got both bases covered until they come out with the Powers book, 
which, they claim, will have even more depth and options than Hero4's power 
building system. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 15:17:44 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Monday, May 18, 1998 2:32 PM, Lizard [SMTP:lizard@dnai.com] wrote: 
> There's another problem -- Fuzion doesn't work. 
>  
> I was very hyped on the idea of Fuzion, until I saw it. I was hoping for 
 
As a player of both systems, I can state that you are wrong.  While Fuzion 
may not work for what you were *hoping* for, it certainly works fine for 
what it was *designed* for.  If you are having problems understanding how to 
deal with mecha and supers, I suggest you jump over to the Fuzion list and 
start directing questions to Christian Conkle, who is extremely 
knowledgeable and has done extensive work in this area and will be very 
happy to explain anything you like. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Champions artists 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 18 May 1998 15:29:54 -0400 
Lines: 25 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Trevor Barrie writes: 
 
> And if you're _not_ playing in a "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"-style 
> campaign? 
 
Then you use powers and power modifiers to simulate the desired effect, 
rather than use powers to duplicate skills. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 14:51:15 -0500 (CDT) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Heroic Adventures 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
>  
> Anybody have any opinions on the Heroic Adventures books (Volumes 1 and 2) 
> they'd like to share? 
> 
 
I've got both.  I haven't ran any of the scenarios.  I quite liked the 
Stars & Bars scenario, and would probably have eventually run it if I'd  
continued my campaign.  
 
I had not bought HA vol 2, since the scenarios appeared to be more of a  
heroic level, than a superheroic level.  I eventually bought it a) since 
I was desperate for a Hero fix and San Angelo had been delayed b) to  
support Gold Rush Games, as the only company putting out paper supplements 
for Champions.  The scenarios all seemed OK, but again not really oriented 
to superheroes necessarily.   
 
Curt 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 16:01:05 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Cc: HSR <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by "Goode, Jason" 
>they've got both bases covered until they come out with the Powers book, 
which, they claim, will have even more depth and options than Hero4's power 
building system.< 
 
I had meant to bring this up on this list, but forgot about it.  If this 
claim is true, I would think that this book would be very intriguing to HSR 
players as well as Fuzion players. 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 16:12:53 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Monday, May 18, 1998 3:00 PM, Dave Mattingly 
[SMTP:dmattingly@platsoft.com] wrote: 
> I wrote: 
> > >The real answer is that nobody likes change.  
> >  
> Trevor Barrie wrote: 
> >You don't think this is more than a little insulting? Have you perhaps 
> >considered that some people think Hero is just a better system? (Ie, if 
> >they had never plaed either system and had to choose, they'd choose 
> Hero.) 
>  
> I also think it's a better system, but I do believe that the root cause 
> of not even giving Fuzion a chance (I've played in both systems) is that 
> in most minds, Change = Bad. 
>  
> Dave Mattingly 
> http://www.haymaker.org 
 
Dave does have a point.  I've read a good number of posts that said, "I've 
never read the rules/played it/etc. myself, but from what I hear...(insert 
system slam here)" 
 
I've have (and currently do) play both systems.  I like them both.  Each one 
has or does certain things better than the other.  Removing the powers issue 
(which, as far as I'm concerned is a non-issue for a lot of reasons), I find 
that I like Fuzion's mechanics better overall, mostly because they are 
simpler, smoother and faster.  It fixes some of the things that are problems 
or unnecessarily complex in Hero.  However, it is incomplete. It's lacking a 
lot of things that I like or find useful about Hero.  It suffers from not 
having had the rounds and rounds of iterations and improvements that Hero 
has had.  I hear people say that they don't want to have to create these 
things to fill the holes in Fuzion, then turn right around and talk about 
all of the changes and customizations that they do with Hero.  Doesn't sound 
like a well reasoned argument to me, but then I don't understand why the 
need to feel defensive in the first place.  You like Hero, play Hero.  Hero 
Games has repeatedly said, if you are happy with Hero4 then there's no need 
to change.  It's your game.  For Christ's sake, play Heroes Unlimited/Rifts 
as long you are having fun.  Given time, and considering that the same 
people are working on it, I figure that Fuzion will eventually have all of 
the great things about Hero4, but with it's great mechanics.  At this point, 
it will simply become a matter of taste.  Until then, I will continue to 
select the best aspects of both systems and make the game mine (which most 
of the people on this list probably do to Hero4 anyway.) 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:18:38 -0700 
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Cc: HSR <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:01 PM 5/18/98 -0400, David Stallard wrote: 
>Message text written by "Goode, Jason" 
>>they've got both bases covered until they come out with the Powers book, 
>which, they claim, will have even more depth and options than Hero4's power 
>building system.< 
> 
>I had meant to bring this up on this list, but forgot about it.  If this 
>claim is true, I would think that this book would be very intriguing to HSR 
>players as well as Fuzion players. 
> 
I'd be psyched. When is it coming out? 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 16:23:22 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Cc: HSR <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
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Message text written by "Goode, Jason" 
>They used a powers "list" in the main book, so that it would appeal to a 
wider audience.  There are an *aweful* lot of poeple (i.e., marketshare) 
who 
are initially scared off by the complexity Hero4 power building system's, 
or 
who just don't "get it."  Since Hero4 can still be used by experienced 
players (all you have to do is divide the final cost by 5 to convert), 
they've got both bases covered until they come out with the Powers book, 
which, they claim, will have even more depth and options than Hero4's power 
building system.< 
 
It almost sounds like with Fuzion they are "tricking" people into the HSR 
way of thinking (as opposed to, say, class-and-level systems). 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 16:45:59 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Cc: HSR <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by Lizard 
>I'd be psyched. When is it coming out?< 
 
I'm not sure about this, but I think the next C:NM book will be an 
international sourcebook (I think it's titled Heroes Abroad or something 
similar), and the Powers book comes after that.  Hopefully someone in a 
more official capacity will step in if this isn't right.  I want the Powers 
book NOW, and I don't really care about the international book. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 18 May 1998 16:57:34 -0400 
Lines: 39 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
David Stallard writes: 
 
> My impression of Fuzion so far is that you all of these "plug-ins" (such 
> as the Mental Powers plug-in or the Martial Arts plug-in) are supposed to 
> be self-contained rule modules, so you can add and subtract them at will 
> and it doesn't affect the other parts of the character. 
 
Uh-huh.  To a character with powers "beyond those of mortal man", those 
powers are an integral part of him.  If you take those powers away by 
removing the plug-in, the character is radically changed.  That is not 
portable by any stretch of the imagination. 
 
The other side of that coin is that not all plug-ins are created equal.  A 
character of a particular point value and a "magic" plug-in is probably not 
going to be competitive with another character of a similar point value and 
a Mekton plug-in.  Again, not particularly portable in my book. 
 
But with Hero, I can take two 200-point characters from two completely 
different campaign worlds and put them together in yet another world with 
only very minor changes without affecting their relative competitiveness. 
That is portability. 
 
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Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 17:05:09 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Ultimate Shrinker 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< I think the trick of travelling the microverse while still 4.5 inches tall 
is pretty slick.  How do you manage to shrink to "molecular size" with only 
four levels of Shrinking? >> 
 
  When using XD Movement, the character is not in this "dimension." The 
special effect is that the character is at molecular size. Extra Shrinking 
isn't needed for this effect. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: HSR <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Tricking? 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 17:19:59 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Monday, May 18, 1998 4:23 PM, David Stallard 
[SMTP:DBStallard@compuserve.com] wrote: 
> It almost sounds like with Fuzion they are "tricking" people into the HSR 
> way of thinking (as opposed to, say, class-and-level systems). 
 
Nothing wrong with that.  I did it to some 6 year veterans of the Palladium 
(HU/Rifts) system and now they're thanking me for it. 
 
Player: "I'd like to play an all superhero game in a modern setting." 
Old GM:  "Okay, let me get my Heroes Unlimted, Aliens Unlimited, & Villans 
Unlimited books." 
Me:  "Wait.  Let me show you this really cool superhero game called 
Champions.  It let's you have any power you want....." 
 
Worked like a charm. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Cc: HSR <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 17:33:19 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Monday, May 18, 1998 4:46 PM, David Stallard 
[SMTP:DBStallard@compuserve.com] wrote: 
> Message text written by Lizard 
> >I'd be psyched. When is it coming out?< 
>  
> I'm not sure about this, but I think the next C:NM book will be an 
> international sourcebook (I think it's titled Heroes Abroad or something 
> similar), and the Powers book comes after that.  Hopefully someone in a 
> more official capacity will step in if this isn't right.  I want the 
Powers 
> book NOW, and I don't really care about the international book. 
 
Until then, take a look at Jason A. Dour's Heroic Abilities Plug-in for 
Fuzion.  It will look pretty familiar, but there are some good powers and 
advantages/disadvantages you won't find in Hero4.   Although tailored for 
Fuzion, it is easily converted to Hero4.  
 
The current revision can found at: 
	http://dour.org/jason/rpg/heroic.abilities/ 
 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 17:35:13 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Heroic Adventures 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< Anybody have any opinions on the Heroic Adventures books (Volumes 1 and 2) 
they'd like to share? >> 
 
  I think they're very neat. ;) 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 17:48:39 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
In a message dated 5/18/98 11:39:21 AM, lizard@dnai.com wrote: 
 
>A fatal mess, where a 
>soldiers with machineguns can turn Grond into hamburger in 5.0 seconds. 
 
Could you explain how that works? The standard assault rifle does 6d6 killing, 
while Grond has 24 points of armor. Which means, on average, the assault rifle 
bullet bounces (average damage is 21 points). Grond also has 100 Hits, and a 
DEX of 4. So, even at point-blank range, the soldiers are even-on to hit him. 
And when they do hit him, they're only going to do a few hits at a time, even 
if they roll really well on their damage. 
 
Depending on where you decide you want autofire to work in your campaign, he's 
not going to take very many slugs even from a squad or two of soldiers. If 
you're using the SPD rules, the soldiers are at best only SPD 3, which means 
they get about one chance to shoot in 5 seconds. 
 
In other words, there's no way that I can see how Grond gets taken out in 5 
seconds by soldiers with automatic weapons. I think you're using excessive 
hyperbole to try and make a point. Relax; Fuzion is not a threat to you or 
anyone else. It's just another game system that you can play or not play, as 
you see fit. 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games  
 
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 17:50:38 EDT 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
In a message dated 5/18/98 1:53:14 PM, DBStallard@compuserve.com wrote: 
 
>I'm not sure about this, but I think the next C:NM book will be an 
>international sourcebook (I think it's titled Heroes Abroad or something 
>similar), and the Powers book comes after that.  Hopefully someone in a 
>more official capacity will step in if this isn't right.  I want the Powers 
>book NOW, and I don't really care about the international book. 
> 
The next book out will be Champions Worldwide. The Fuzion superpowers book 
will come out when I've completed it; I have no set schedule. 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games  
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 18:00:22 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Cc: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by "Goode, Jason" 
>Dave does have a point.  I've read a good number of posts that said, "I've 
never read the rules/played it/etc. myself, but from what I hear...(insert 
system slam here)"< 
 
Sean Fannon mentioned in-passing what I think is a big problem with getting 
H4 people (myself included) to accept Fuzion--the presentation of the 
rules.  I read a few pages into the Fuzion rules in C:NM and I get confused 
on several points...I also have a very hard time trying to find anything 
specific--for instance, the only place they explain what the formulas are 
next to the primary stats is on the "sample" character sheet that explains 
each section of the sheet.  The text explaining the formulas is not in the 
primary stat box, so I passed over it several times before I found it.  I'm 
not sure what it is (I want to say that the text is "too busy", with too 
many font changes, bold text, underlines, etc), but the presentation of the 
rules in C:NM is not easy to digest.  Sean said that the presentation in 
Usagi Yojimbo (which is only Instant Fuzion...something like 4 pages of 
rules) is a lot better, but I don't think I want to buy that whole book for 
a 4-page intro to Fuzion (I have no interest in the UY setting). 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 18:00:27 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by Stainless Steel Rat 
>The other side of that coin is that not all plug-ins are created equal.  A 
character of a particular point value and a "magic" plug-in is probably not 
going to be competitive with another character of a similar point value and 
a Mekton plug-in.  Again, not particularly portable in my book.< 
 
I'll have to take your word on the fact that the plug-ins aren't balanced 
against each other, because I've only seen the ones in the C:NM  book.  I 
can certainly see that there's a potential for the problem you describe, 
but can't argue whether or not it already exists. 
 
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 18:04:56 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
In a message dated 5/18/98 2:09:36 PM, ratinox@peorth.gweep.net wrote: 
 
>Uh-huh.  To a character with powers "beyond those of mortal man", those 
>powers are an integral part of him.  If you take those powers away by 
>removing the plug-in, the character is radically changed.  That is not 
>portable by any stretch of the imagination. 
 
You can't take a plug-in away from a character. A GM can decide not to allow a 
character in his campaign, but that's true in any game. GM's are free to 
decide which plug-ins to allow for character creation in their campaign, and 
they can always let in or keep out characters built with other plug-ins. Same 
as with the Hero System and house rules. Plug-ins are just a formalization of 
the house rule concept. 
 
>The other side of that coin is that not all plug-ins are created equal.  A 
>character of a particular point value and a "magic" plug-in is probably not 
>going to be competitive with another character of a similar point value and 
>a Mekton plug-in.  Again, not particularly portable in my book. 
 
This is absolutely the best part about plug-ins. You see, the utility of a 
given ability (and therefore its cost) should vary with the needs of a given 
campaign. Already some GM's do this with Hero System games (for instance, 
making house rules that Mental Defense is free for everybody), though not to 
the same extent. The important issue, as you note, is being competitive. 
That's where the Rule of X in Fuzion comes in; it's a rating of a a 
character's combat effectiveness. So how you built your character, or how many 
points you're built on, isn't as important as how effectively you can compete 
with other characters.  
 
>But with Hero, I can take two 200-point characters from two completely 
>different campaign worlds and put them together in yet another world with 
>only very minor changes without affecting their relative competitiveness. 
>That is portability. 
 
And in Fuzion, you can take characters with RoX values of 20 and put them 
together without affecting their competitiveness. Same thing, achieved in a 
different fashion. 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games  
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 15:05:38 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re:  RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 05:48 PM 5/18/98 EDT, Hero Games wrote: 
 
>In other words, there's no way that I can see how Grond gets taken out in 5 
>seconds by soldiers with automatic weapons. I think you're using excessive 
>hyperbole to try and make a point. Relax; Fuzion is not a threat to you or 
>anyone else. It's just another game system that you can play or not play, as 
>you see fit. 
> 
The Grond vs. a machinegun example came from a long thread on the 
newsgroup;I confess to forgetting the exact numbers, but Fuzion is much 
deadlier than Hero -- which wouldn't be a problem for heroic level games, 
but for superheroic... 
 
As for the 'threat' -- where do people get this from? I don't make any 
money from Hero, so why should a competitor be a 'threat' to me? As I said, 
I was looking forward to Fuzion because of the promised greater diversity 
of low-powered characters, coupled with a great power-building metasystem. 
It didn't work out that way. 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Pat10355" <Pat10355@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 18 May 98 22:38:34  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Ultimate Shrinker 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 40 
 
On Mon, 18 May 1998 01:13:05 EDT, Pat10355 wrote: 
 
>Hi, 
> 
>I'm trying to build a shrinking hero for our Champions campaign, and I'm 
>looking for ideas. I'd like to create the "ultimate shrinker," a la the Atom 
>from DC. 
> 
>So far I have: 
> 
>Shrinking, x4 
>Flight 
>Desolidification (shrinks to molecular size and passes through walls) 
>Extra-Dimensional Travel: Microverse (microscopic, molecular or subatomic -- 
>basically, as small as I want to go) 
>Find Weakness (concept: he finds"chinks in the armor," weak spots, etc., that 
>a normal-sized person couldn't take advantage of) 
> 
>Any other "shrinker tricks" out there? 
 
How about defences based upon the level of shrinking attained? 
 
EG you have 16 points each of Power Defense and Mental Defense, but get 
only 4 pts each per level of Shrinking (ie 4 at 1 level, 8 at 2 levels, 
12 at 3 levels, and 16 at 4 levels of shrinking). This would represent 
the increased difficulty of tagging a smaller target. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 17:41:31 -0500 
To: hero-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: The Incredible Shrinking Hero 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
The character was described as having four levels of Shrinking, and so can 
shrink to a height of about 4.5 inches.  Or he can take himself to 
microscopic size (the size change in this latter case is not Shrinking per 
se, just a special effect of XDM: Microverse or Desolid).   But he can't do 
anything in between.  This "Ultimate Shrinker" cannot become the size of a 
dime (for which he'd need 70 points in Shrinking), or an ant (90 points), 
or a flea (100 points).  This lack of flexibility  seems incredibly silly. 
 
Yes, you guys are right, and I that the use of XDM and Desolid was the best 
way to handle microscopic size; using Shrinking alone would have been much 
too expensive.   This is one of the drawbacks of the Hero system, at least 
as it applies to Champions: some standard comic book Powers become 
impractically expensive fairly quickly, and not only cosmic-level or highly 
lethal Powers.  Also, Hero recognizes very few "natural consequences" of 
Powers, so in most cases if you see an obvious side benefit to one Power, 
you must buy a second Power before you can take advantage of it. 
 
As a result of these two things, the player is sometimes compelled to buy 
two or three separate Powers simply in order to model the upper and lower 
extremes of a *single* ability.  That was pretty much the case here. 
Rather than spend hundreds of points on Shrinking, the player made a choice 
to model the extremes of the size change power using XDM and Desolid.  That 
choice was valid under the Hero system, but I think it's unfortunate that 
Hero makes this sort of thing necessary. 
 
If nothing else, I would suggest buying a few more levels of Shrinking in 
order to partially close the gap between 4.5 inches and microscopic size. 
This will make the shortcomings of Hero's power construction options a 
little less obvious.  Perhaps the character will find that being coin-sized 
or insect-sized is more useful than being microscopic.  You must think 
there's some utility in small size, or you wouldn't be building this 
particular character, right?  I had sort of assumed that, having labelled 
the character concept the "Ultimate Shrinker" you would want not only a 
range of abilities, but also maximum Shrinkage (otherwise, you might as 
well build Doll Man instead of the Atom) but now it sounds like you might 
not think there's much point to going microscopic, except in order to go 
through walls.  If that's the case, you may want to ignore what follows: 
 
FTL Travel while in the microverse might also be considered, so that Mister 
Minuscule can travel the phone lines.  The Atom used to do this fairly 
often; place a phone call and then ride the signal to the phone at the 
other end.  As I recall he needed a continuous land line in order to do 
this, though.  I think a satellite or microwave relay represented a barrier 
he wasn't able to cross, but I may be wrong about that.  It's been a long 
time.   
 
Life Support vs. Breathing may also be appropriate for the time spent at 
miscoscopic size; if your whole body is the size of a hydrogen atom, for 
example, it follows that you cannot be drawing air, consisting of larger 
atoms of oxygen, nitrogen, etc., into your lungs.  The same thing would 
apply to molecules of water, of course, but it's unlikely you'd spend 
enough time at the reduced size to have to worry about Life Support vs. 
Eating/Drinking. 
 
Damon 
 
 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 18 May 1998 19:02:14 -0400 
Lines: 38 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
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Hero Games writes: 
 
> And in Fuzion, you can take characters with RoX values of 20 and put them 
> together without affecting their competitiveness. Same thing, achieved in 
> a different fashion. 
 
Nononono.  Two Fuzion plug-ins of roughly equivalent cost might not be of 
equivalent utility (I expect this to become a more obvious problem with the 
Fuzion edition of Mekton Zeta, especially if the MTS is converted).  Given 
that premise, two characters of equivalent cost will not be competitive if 
you put them together. 
 
And even if you can achieve equivalancy, you quickly run into the problem 
that certain instances of Fuzion have characteristics that do not exist in 
other instances of Fuzion.  You cannot put a "New Millenium" character into 
a "Bubblegum Crisis" world or vice-versa without recalculating the 
character.  Your two equivalent-cost characters are not as equivalent. 
 
Stop signs and magnifying glasses aside, Hero does not suffer from that 
problem. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 19:24:44 -0400 (EDT) 
From: "Jason A. Dour" <jason@dour.org> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Comments: Getting paid to be a geek is cool... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
On 18 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
> The other side of that coin is that not all plug-ins are created equal.  A 
> character of a particular point value and a "magic" plug-in is probably not 
> going to be competitive with another character of a similar point value and 
> a Mekton plug-in.  Again, not particularly portable in my book. 
 
Not in your book....but in others' it is.  You cite the following reason: 
 
> But with Hero, I can take two 200-point characters from two completely 
> different campaign worlds and put them together in yet another world with 
> only very minor changes without affecting their relative competitiveness. 
> That is portability. 
 
You know...I've seen this stance time and again from Hero gamers.  I've 
seen it in arg -- I mean, discussions regarding the superiority of Hero to 
GURPS.  I've seen it in arg -- I mean, discussions regarding the 
superiority of Hero to Fuzion.  I've seen it in tira -- I mean, 
testimonials about how wonderful Hero is compared to every game system 
ever created, buttered toast, armani suits, and mom's home cooking. 
But this viewpoint is about as accurate as Otis in a pissing contest after 
a ten day binge.   
 
While Herophiles claim 100% portability, they pleasantly overlook how Hero 
has failings similar to Fuzion.  Fuzion's "lack of portability" comes from 
its recognition that campaigns and genres can be -- and ARE -- different. 
The fact that a character may have slightly different point costs compared 
to another character from another genre doesn't bother most Fuzionphiles, 
because many realize there are differences between the two that may 
justify the situation. 
 
Herophiles, on the other hand, fail to notice that points alone do not 
denote either portability or utility.  I can take a 200 point skill-heavy 
character from an X-Files campaign and plop her right in the middle of a 
200 point Superheroic campaign, and she is more than likely going to be 
SCREWED.  Why?  Because she's not slinging multiple dice of attacks.  And 
if she does brandish a weapon, she's either getting "free points" by use 
of the gear, or she will be expected to "pay for that utility" by the 
standards of the superheroic genre.  Either way you slice it, her 200 
points do not equal the same utility in or out of combat as the 
energy-slingers.  
 
The various Hero genres choose to charge or not to charge for equipment. 
That alone can easily hinder portability.  Plop that same X-Files woman 
into the superheroic campaign, except put her in carge of a 100d6 nova gun 
she found while investigating an X file, and suddenly she does stand a 
chance of surviving.  The claim of 100% portability for Hero falls apart 
at the exact same location as Fuzion...cross genre/campaign character use. 
 
Hero would GREATLY benefit from a rule similar to Fuzion's Rule of X. 
Point totals are NOT a good representation of a character's utility, and 
as long as Hero uses that as the only means of keeping a character in 
check, it will always suffer the cross-genre problems it faces now.  At 
least Fuzion tried to address that problem, even if Hero gamers didn't 
care for the flavor of the outcome. 
 
I'll be the first to admit Fuzion has problems.  But I was also one of the 
first to admit Hero had problems.  I chose Fuzion.  Others chose Hero.  I 
don't bad mouth Hero...I don't over-evangelize Fuzion.  They both have 
use.  They are both good systems.  In my humble opinion, I like Fuzion  
better.  Others may not...but I'd prefer their decision be of an informed 
rather than knee-jerk reactionary nature. 
 
 
 
Jason 
# "Jason A. Dour" <jason@dour.org>       (http://dour.org/jason/) 
# Finger for URLs, PGP Key, Geek Code, PJ Harvey info, et cetera. 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 19:39:26 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Monday, May 18, 1998 6:00 PM, David Stallard 
[SMTP:DBStallard@compuserve.com] wrote: 
> rules in C:NM is not easy to digest.  Sean said that the presentation in 
> Usagi Yojimbo (which is only Instant Fuzion...something like 4 pages of 
> rules) is a lot better, but I don't think I want to buy that whole book 
for 
> a 4-page intro to Fuzion (I have no interest in the UY setting). 
 
I agree that the choice of formats wasn't the best, particularly for people 
who are totally unfamiliar with the system, or those who want to quickly get 
to the meat without reading the whole thing.  In fact, when C:NM first 
debuted, I flipped through the book and put it back down for exactly that 
reason.  Hero is aware of this.  I understand that they are going to use 
simpler formatting in the future. 
 
When I decided to start a second group, I handed one of the players my 
Hero4/Champions book.  He flipped through it and said, "You're kidding, 
right?"  I told him that it was worth it to slog through it, but he seemed 
to feel about Hero4's presentation the same way I did when I first 
encountered Fuzion.  Not surprising when you think about it.  When he went 
to get his own book, we couldn't find a Hero4/Champions book to save our 
lives.  We could, however, find C:NM books.  This is what made me give C:NM 
(and Fuzion) a second chance.  I'm glad I did. 
 
The only real difference between (total) Fuzion and Instant Fuzion is the 
compression/decompression of the character stats.  In instant Fuzion, you 
have stats like Mental, Physical, Combat, etc., whereas in 
total/regular/full/whatever Fuzion those stats are exploded.  For example, 
Mental explodes into Int, Will (Ego), & Pre.   The remaining mechanics are 
the same.  For the Hero only players who are right now wondering what the 
hell good is Instant Fuzion, its good for simpler games that don't need a 
whole lot of detail, for creating hordes of low level minions who don't need 
full fleshing out, and (I've heard) for even faster combat among other 
things. 
 
I haven't picked up UY, so I don't know if the presentation is clearer.  I 
have flipped through it and I gather that it is a simpler game.  I saw a UY 
comic book and I'll pick it up and see if the universe is interesting to me. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 19:45:23 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Monday, May 18, 1998 7:02 PM, Stainless Steel Rat 
[SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net] wrote: 
> And even if you can achieve equivalancy, you quickly run into the problem 
> that certain instances of Fuzion have characteristics that do not exist in 
> other instances of Fuzion.  You cannot put a "New Millenium" character 
into 
> a "Bubblegum Crisis" world or vice-versa without recalculating the 
> character.  Your two equivalent-cost characters are not as equivalent. 
>  
 
Why not?  We did.  It worked just fine. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 19:49:40 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>rules.  I read a few pages into the Fuzion rules in C:NM and I get confused 
>on several points...I also have a very hard time trying to find anything 
>specific-- 
 
<snip> 
 
> but the presentation of the 
>rules in C:NM is not easy to digest.  Sean said that the presentation in 
>Usagi Yojimbo (which is only Instant Fuzion...something like 4 pages of 
>rules) is a lot better, but I don't think I want to buy that whole book for 
>a 4-page intro to Fuzion (I have no interest in the UY setting). 
 
Just to throw my 2 cents into the ring; my first Fuzion experience was with 
the Bubblegum Crisis game; IMHO an abysmal piece of junk - for various 
reasons (not just limited to the game system, but also had to do with the 
bizarre NPC stats and complete lack of a mecha build system). I wasn't 
leaning towards buying C:NM anyways (being happy with 4th Edition HERO), and 
this 'introductory' product (BGC) turned me off Fuzion completely. It in no 
way displayed 'compatability' with either HERO or Interlock (try converting 
the BGC hardsuits to Mekton Zeta stats; it's nightmarish). 
 
Also, I found character creation to be no simpler in Fuzion than in HERO. 
There are fewer stats in Fuzion, but there are just as many (if not more) 
options to be considered, and Complications are just plain confusing (the 
examples in BGC are copious, but give only the point values, not the 
frequency and intensity). The Superpower plug-in for Fuzion might be simpler 
than HERO superpowers, but I think the attendant loss of variety and ability 
to build 'special' powers (so far) is a far greater concern. 
 
To be fair, however, I did get Usagi Yojimbo. Instant Fuzion is another 
story, very clean and simple, and I like it. But even there I found some 
oddities - for example, the Instant Fuzion rules given on pg.11 conflict 
with the combat rules given later in the book (example; in UY you can do 
damage when being attacked, but the Instant Fuzion rules do not mention any 
of this). Two kinds of combat systems in one book are bound to cause people 
confusion. 
 
Anyway, from what I've seen of Fuzion (BGC), it's not worth using as a game 
system. Yes, it's better for mecha than HERO is, but the entire BGC setting 
would have benefitted from being a whole-cloth Interlock game - can anyone 
give me one good reason why it should have been a Fuzion product? I can't 
imagine that it's any different with respect to the superhero genre. Given a 
very specific setting with minimal play options (like, say, Usagi Yojimbo), 
Fuzion (and especially Instant Fuzion) works fine. But that's hardly a 
shining endorsement of a system that's meant to handle open-ended superhero 
style gaming. 
 
In essence, the more stripped down you use Fuzion, the better it seems to 
work. That doesn't make me want to use it for superhero (or mecha) gaming. 
 
 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!" 
-Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 19:56:49 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
In a message dated 5/18/98 4:06:40 PM, ratinox@peorth.gweep.net wrote: 
 
>Nononono.  Two Fuzion plug-ins of roughly equivalent cost might not be of 
>equivalent utility (I expect this to become a more obvious problem with the 
>Fuzion edition of Mekton Zeta, especially if the MTS is converted).  Given 
>that premise, two characters of equivalent cost will not be competitive if 
>you put them together. 
 
You misunderstand my point. It doesn't matter what it costs to build your 
character; what matters is how effective that character is in combat, if 
you're looking to achieve a reasonable balance in game play.  You could build 
a combat monster on 150 points that could reasonably keep up with a group of 
250 point superheroes in combat. Similar effectiveness, different point costs. 
What matters there is attacks, defenses, OCV/DCV, and so on.  
 
Overall cost is the method given in the Hero System for evaluating the 
effectiveness of characters; at best, it's a pretty crude method. We all know 
that one can build a combat monster for 200 points, or a combat wimp with 500 
points, depending on how you spend the points. 
 
With Fuzion, the competitiveness is rated not by how much you spent on your 
abilities, but by your Rule of X value. While still not perfect, RoX does a 
much better job of revealing a character's combat effectiveness than overall 
points do for the Hero System. 
 
So the fact that different plug-ins may have different costs for different 
abilities is OK. In effect, it's similar to giving out different base points 
for different campaigns. As long as the characters from different campaigns 
are similarly effective in combat, they can adventure together with no 
problem, even though one may be built on 150 points and another built on 500 
points. Where you run into difficulties for the GM is if characters have a 
high variance in combat effectiveness, and they get into combat. While writers 
in comics can adroitly manage to let Professor Wimp live while energy bolts 
are flaming left and right, that's much more difficult in a game. If some of 
the characters have to be hit by 12d6 attacks to get their attention, and 
another character gets turned into mush by 12d6 attacks, that character is in 
serious trouble. The game gets tougher to GM, and can be a disaster. 
 
Thus Fuzion uses RoX to help the GM achieve combat parity. 
 
>And even if you can achieve equivalancy, you quickly run into the problem 
>that certain instances of Fuzion have characteristics that do not exist in 
>other instances of Fuzion.  You cannot put a "New Millenium" character into 
>a "Bubblegum Crisis" world or vice-versa without recalculating the 
>character.  Your two equivalent-cost characters are not as equivalent. 
 
You may have missed how to deal with different stat sets in Fuzion. It's 
really quite easy. All primary stats are put into a group; either Physical, 
Mental, Combat or Move. If a character from Game A lacks a Mental group stat 
used in Game B (let's call it Spirit), just take the average of the Mental 
Group stat as your Spirit value for that new game. No recalculation is 
necessary, nor change in cost. 
 
Conversely, moving to the game that lacks a Spirit stat means you just ignore 
it. Or, if the GM allows, and you have some special ability (say, magic) that 
uses a Spirit stat, go ahead and use it. If you need to know the Spirit stat 
of others, just take the average of their Mental Group stats as their Spirit 
stat. 
 
Derived stats are even easier; just follow the formula for the derived stat. 
No cost changes are necessary. 
 
You see, since cost is not the primary way to determine the effectiveness of 
characters, it's perfectly reasonable to allow stats to be fluid from campaign 
to campaign. RoX values are used for rating combat effectiveness instead of 
overall points. 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games  
 
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X-Sender: bob.greenwade@klock.com 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 17:14:27 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: C:NM Sourcebooks 
Cc: fuzion@dour.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:00 PM 5/18/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
>Subject: Re:  RE: Why stick with HSR? 
>In a message dated 5/18/98 1:53:14 PM, DBStallard@compuserve.com wrote: 
> 
>>I'm not sure about this, but I think the next C:NM book will be an 
>>international sourcebook (I think it's titled Heroes Abroad or something 
>>similar), and the Powers book comes after that.  Hopefully someone in a 
>>more official capacity will step in if this isn't right.  I want the Powers 
>>book NOW, and I don't really care about the international book. 
>> 
>The next book out will be Champions Worldwide. The Fuzion superpowers book 
>will come out when I've completed it; I have no set schedule. 
 
   Any hints on what we can expect to see after Champions Worldwide? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 20:20:22 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>I agree that the choice of formats wasn't the best, particularly for people 
>who are totally unfamiliar with the system, or those who want to quickly get 
>to the meat without reading the whole thing.  In fact, when C:NM first 
>debuted, I flipped through the book and put it back down for exactly that 
>reason.  Hero is aware of this.  I understand that they are going to use 
>simpler formatting in the future. 
 
Heh. Can you say 2nd Edition C:NM? Like _any_ gaming system, Fuzion is going 
to have birthing pangs. I think, though, that Fuzion is spreading its 
birthing pangs out by using the 'plug-in' concept. We'll have to wait and see. 
 
>The only real difference between (total) Fuzion and Instant Fuzion is the 
>compression/decompression of the character stats. 
 
And the removal of talents and perks. And the removal of complications and 
power building. At least in Usagi Yojimbo. The simplification really helps 
in the area of skills, as you no longer have to figure out what skill goes 
with what stat in a circumstance - it's usually very obvious. In regular 
Fuzion, you can get instances where it might be INT or TECH, REF or DEX, and 
thus you get arguments and confusion. 
 
> For the Hero only players who are right now wondering what the 
>hell good is Instant Fuzion, its good for simpler games that don't need a 
>whole lot of detail, for creating hordes of low level minions who don't need 
>full fleshing out, and (I've heard) for even faster combat among other 
>things. 
 
Oh yeah. UY combat can be very, very fast - and very, very deadly. 
 
>I haven't picked up UY, so I don't know if the presentation is clearer. 
 
It is. 
 
>I 
>have flipped through it and I gather that it is a simpler game. 
 
Much. 
 
>I saw a UY 
>comic book and I'll pick it up and see if the universe is interesting to me. 
 
Do it. Usagi Yojimbo is one of the best comics going. Great art, great 
stories, great characters. You even get to learn a bit about fuedal Japan, 
as Stan puts lots of research into his books. Heck, I'd suggest UY as 
required reading material for Sengoku or Legend of the Five Rings gamers :-). 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!" 
-Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 17:30:38 -0700 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:00 PM 5/18/1998 -0700, Dave Mattingly wrote: 
>I wrote: 
>> >The real answer is that nobody likes change.  
>>  
>Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>>You don't think this is more than a little insulting? Have you perhaps 
>>considered that some people think Hero is just a better system? (Ie, if 
>>they had never plaed either system and had to choose, they'd choose 
>Hero.) 
> 
>I also think it's a better system, but I do believe that the root cause 
>of not even giving Fuzion a chance (I've played in both systems) is that 
>in most minds, Change = Bad. 
 
   What it really seems to boil down to, at least in my view, is whether 
you want a solid game system or a solid universe. 
   The Hero Game System is a very solid system -- its mechanics are pretty 
consistent from one world to the next.  The Champions could somehow land in 
the Western Shores or the universe of Bright Future, and little if any 
mechanics would need to be adjusted.  However, the Champions Universe is 
fairly haphazard in its construction, and the Western Shores setting isn't 
very well fleshed out (I haven't seen Bright Future beyond the sample on 
the Hero Games website, so I don't know if it suffers any such weakness). 
   Fuzion has several strong settings, starting with Bubblegum Crisis and 
Champions: The New Millennium.  However, while these settings are 
consistent and well fleshed-out, the game system is not.  Characters from 
BGC wouldn't work well in the universe of C:TNM, and vice versa.  For that 
matter, characters from one era in the Hero Universe might use different 
mechanics that those from another (this hasn't been specified and -- this 
is for you, Steve & Steve -- it probably should be when the Hero Universe 
web page is updated).  Plug-ins make for some excellent flexibility, but 
that same flexibility disrupts universal compatibility (how's that again?). 
   So really, it's a matter of taste. 
   And to tell the truth, I rather like both, each for its own strengths. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 20:33:27 -0400 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Michelle Knight <mlknight@mindspring.com> 
Subject: Re: Heroic Adventures 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 05:35 PM 5/18/98 EDT, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< Anybody have any opinions on the Heroic Adventures books (Volumes 1 and 2) 
>they'd like to share? >> 
> 
>  I think they're very neat. ;) 
 
 
  Well, of course you do.  You're the one who published it after all. :) 
 
 
Michelle <--- who happened to GM the "Thing from Radley Manor" 
(from HA 2) and thought it was a very cool adventure. 
 
 
==================================================== 
Michelle Knight                    Primary: mlknight@mindspring.com 
Gold Rush Games             ICQ: 2083514/ A.I.M. MLKnight01    
Greensboro, NC                  
 
  ----------------  Freelance Editing/Layout & Design  ----------------- 
==================================================== 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
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Date: 18 May 1998 20:39:50 -0400 
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Jason A Dour writes: 
 
> You know...I've seen this stance time and again from Hero gamers.  I've 
> seen it in arg -- I mean, discussions regarding the superiority of Hero 
> to GURPS. 
 
GURPS suffers from the "necessity" of buying fifty books to get all of the 
rules.  But I have not seen a lack of portability in GURPS characters. 
 
> I've seen it in arg -- I mean, discussions regarding the superiority of 
> Hero to Fuzion.  I've seen it in tira -- I mean, testimonials about how 
> wonderful Hero is compared to every game system ever created, 
 
Hero is not the greatest game system ever made.  That honor goes to a game 
that does not yet exist.  And there are things that I would not use Hero 
for, being a fan of anime giant robots I would use Interlock Mekton for 
that.  But for supers and especially for "multiversal" campaigns, Hero 
tends to be my system of choice. 
 
> buttered toast, armani suits, and mom's home cooking.  But this viewpoint 
> is about as accurate as Otis in a pissing contest after a ten day binge. 
 
> While Herophiles claim 100% portability, 
 
I did not claim 100% portability.  A Hero character will usually need 
little modification if you transport him to another setting.  Fuzion 
requires more work to accomplish the same goal.  That makes it less 
portable than Hero.  That is the claim I am making. 
 
> they pleasantly overlook how Hero has failings similar to Fuzion. 
 
I am ignoring nothing. 
 
> Fuzion's "lack of portability" comes from its recognition that campaigns 
> and genres can be -- and ARE -- different.  The fact that a character may 
> have slightly different point costs compared to another character from 
> another genre doesn't bother most Fuzionphiles, because many realize 
> there are differences between the two that may justify the situation. 
 
At the same time, that difference makes it difficult to take a thing from 
one setting and adapt it to another. 
 
> Herophiles, on the other hand, fail to notice that points alone do not 
> denote either portability or utility.  I can take a 200 point skill-heavy 
> character from an X-Files campaign and plop her right in the middle of a 
> 200 point Superheroic campaign, and she is more than likely going to be 
> SCREWED.  Why?  Because she's not slinging multiple dice of attacks. 
 
To which I must ask, why is this person trying to fight supers on the 
super's ground when she is a hell of a lot more intelligent and educated 
than that?  Player stupidity is no evidence of a failing in a game system. 
 
> [etc] 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Hero Games writes: 
 
> With Fuzion, the competitiveness is rated not by how much you spent on your 
> abilities, but by your Rule of X value. 
 
Combat effectiveness is not the ultimage gauge of a character's 
competitiveness.  It is only a gauge of the character's up-front combat 
effectiveness. 
 
> While still not perfect, RoX does a much better job of revealing a 
> character's combat effectiveness than overall points do for the Hero 
> System. 
 
In Hero, we have campaign guidelines which include things like ranges for 
CV, attack DCs and defenses.  If a character's abilities fall within those 
ranges you can be pretty sure that he will be competitive, at least in 
combat. 
 
Or have you forgotten that already? :) 
 
I personally think that Hero campaign guidelines do a better job of 
ensuring characters will be effective in combat than Fuzion's Rule of X. 
 
[...] 
 
> You may have missed how to deal with different stat sets in Fuzion. It's 
> really quite easy. All primary stats are put into a group; either Physical, 
> Mental, Combat or Move. If a character from Game A lacks a Mental group stat 
> used in Game B (let's call it Spirit), just take the average of the Mental 
> Group stat as your Spirit value for that new game. No recalculation is 
> necessary, nor change in cost. 
 
What if an average value is not appropriate for the transposed character? 
 
> Conversely, moving to the game that lacks a Spirit stat means you just ignore 
> it. Or, if the GM allows, and you have some special ability (say, magic) that 
> uses a Spirit stat, go ahead and use it. If you need to know the Spirit stat 
> of others, just take the average of their Mental Group stats as their Spirit 
> stat. 
 
What if the non-average stat from the home universe, which cost the 
character a goodly number of points, has relatively little use in the new 
universe? 
 
In Hero, all characteristics have equivalent utility regardless of the home 
universe. 
 
> Derived stats are even easier; just follow the formula for the derived stat. 
> No cost changes are necessary. 
 
Again, what if a non-average derived stat is appropriate? 
 
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 21:19:14 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Cc: fuzion@dour.org 
Subject: Re:  Re: C:NM Sourcebooks 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
In a message dated 5/18/98 5:49:26 PM, bob.greenwade@klock.com wrote: 
 
>Any hints on what we can expect to see after Champions Worldwide? 
 
After that book, there's a pair of books that continue the story begun there: 
VIPER and UNTIL books. The VIPER book will cover that organization in depth, 
with lots of adventure seeds and many characters as well as various important 
locations and lots of equipment. Remember, the VIPER of the New Millennium 
universe is different from the VIPER of the Champions Universe. 
 
The UNTIL book will provide that organization in detail, plus info on how to 
play superagents (UNTIL or otherwise) in the New Millennium setting. 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games  
 
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: WC: Nur al-Allah 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 20:19:18 -0500 
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>> Why do you say that the UM is not official? 
> 
>Two main reasons: 
> 
>- The only 'official' Hero System rules are in the BBB (and HSR). 
>Any rules introduced in supplements are optional - including the 
>Hero System Almanacs. 
>- In the case of the Ultimate Mentalist, all of the rules are 
>explicitly STATED as being purely optional. 
 
 
 
Optional I understand.  Unofficial I don't.  Even rules in the HSR and BBB 
are optional.  If it is published with the permission of Hero it is 
official.  But thanks for the explanation, I understand what you mean now. 
Only our definitions disagree. 
 
Alan 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 21:32:03 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<< What if the non-average stat from the home universe, which cost the 
character a goodly number of points, has relatively little use in the new 
universe? >> 
 
  Then the GM has the option of allowing the player to average the stats in 
that Group, multiply by the number of stats in use in the GM's campaign and 
redistribute. This really isn't a big deal, IMO. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Climbing (was Re: Champions artists) 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 20:52:42 -0500 
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>> Out of curiousity, do you have a problem with RASR for any power?  or 
just 
>> in the case of Clinging? 
> 
>No, my problem is with "requires a skill roll" being placed on a power that 
>duplicates the effects of the skill being rolled. 
 
 
But as I said, Powers allow people to do more than what is humanly possible, 
Skills don't.  A Power may allow a character to do everything that a skill 
does and more, but not duplicate a skill. 
 
Alan 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:00:12 -0400 
From: Chris Paladino <Dino@En.com> 
Organization: EN 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Any word on H5? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
What's in it?  (Besides changing Aid to 10/d6) and When will it come 
out? 
 
-- 
Chris Paladino 
 
 
Dino@En.com 
CPaladino@Jcvaxa.jcu.edu 
http://www.en.com/users/dino/index.html 
 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 21:04:10 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re:  Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 18 May 1998, Hero Games wrote: 
 
> You misunderstand my point. It doesn't matter what it costs to build your 
> character; what matters is how effective that character is in combat, if 
> you're looking to achieve a reasonable balance in game play. 
 
Wow.  I'm really not sure to make of this.  It /sounds/ like you're saying 
that combat is the only thing that needs to be balanced in gameplay, but 
I'm hoping that's not it... 
 
I can put a 250-point super in a game with a 100 point normal, and have 
the normal wind up being more effective - all it takes is the right kind 
of campaign - say one more geared towards subtlety and investigation than  
bashing villains with cars. 
 
While RoX seems to be a more elegant tool for balancing combat 
effectiveness than the traditional HERO AP/DC limits, neither one of them 
are any substitute for a good GM.  /Especially/ in games with less 
emphasis on combat. 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Ultimate Shrinker 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 19:05:04 -0700 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> From: Pat10355 
> 
> 
> In a message dated 98-05-18 08:16:10 EDT, griffin@txdirect.net writes: 
> 
> << A hydrogen atom is 10^-13 meters across.  If I've figured this correctly, 
>  you'd need something like 40 levels of Shrinking (400 points worth) to get 
>  to that size.  YMMV (your molecule may vary). >> 
> 
> Which is why I bought it as Extra-Dimensional Travel: Microverse. Buying 
> enough Shrinking to get that small is silly, as well as being impossible in 
> any kind of point-balanced campaign. 
 
I agree, with certain reservations below. 
 
> Frankly, I see being able to shrink down to the size of a molecule or atom as 
> not being terribly useful ... although quite cool. Oh sure, a PC could get in 
> someone's bloodstream and start attacking blood cells ... in about a year or 
> so he might do enough damage to hurt the villain. I guess a subatomic-sized PC 
> could shove atoms around or something -- whoopty-do. 
 
Actually, a shrinker with 400 levels of Shrinking would still have the STR of an adult 
human. Thus, it could actually be unbalancing, rather than silly. A normal STR man in my 
bloodstream seems more than a minor problem, and one against which few villains would have 
a defense. 
 
However, if the character became proportionately powerful as he shrank, I would definitely 
declare him to be in another universe when he reached the level at which he battled 
spiders, wasps, and hordes of ants. 
 
Filksinger 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 21:09:25 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On 18 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
> Jason A Dour writes: 
>  
> > You know...I've seen this stance time and again from Hero gamers.  I've 
> > seen it in arg -- I mean, discussions regarding the superiority of Hero 
> > to GURPS. 
>  
> GURPS suffers from the "necessity" of buying fifty books to get all of the 
> rules. 
 
Well, SJG realized that GURPS was heading that way, so they published 
Compendium I and II - the first covers all but the most world-specific 
character creation options, and the second has most of the optional rules. 
 
OK, that was pretty off topic, but I'm one of those darn fence0sitters 
that likes both GURPS and H4...sue me. 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:16:12 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 18 May 1998, Hero Games wrote: 
 
> This is absolutely the best part about plug-ins. You see, the utility of a 
> given ability (and therefore its cost) should vary with the needs of a given 
> campaign. Already some GM's do this with Hero System games (for instance, 
> making house rules that Mental Defense is free for everybody), though not to 
> the same extent. The important issue, as you note, is being competitive. 
> That's where the Rule of X in Fuzion comes in; it's a rating of a a 
> character's combat effectiveness. So how you built your character, or how many 
> points you're built on, isn't as important as how effectively you can compete 
> with other characters.  
 
There are two statements here that I consider reasons why I'm not so crazy 
about Fuzion. 
 
The first is this: 
 
"...You see, the utility of a given ability (and therefore its cost) 
should vary with the needs of a given campaign." 
 
Basically, this means there is no common denominator among powers and 
skills.  This, combined with Sean P Fannon's statements to the effect of 
'don't like a stat (or don't see one you want)?  Make a *new* one!' can 
combine to create characters that are unrecognizable outside of the 
campaign they are played.  If people can mix and match stats and point 
values, how do I even figure out what a character can do? 
 
The second is this: 
 
"So how you built your character, or how many points you're built on, 
isn't as important as how effectively you can compete with other 
characters." 
 
What do I get out of this?  Concept is not important, the ability of this 
set of numbers to kill other sets of numbers is.  Sorry, I really hope 
that there is more to a game than 'combat effectiveness'.  And I'd rahter 
not compete with other characters, I'd rather work well with them.  The 
'Rule of X' sounds just a touch too simplified to me. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:22:59 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Monday, May 18, 1998 9:01 PM, Stainless Steel Rat 
[SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net] wrote: 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
 
<bunch of stuff about stats snipped> 
 
>  
> --  
> Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include 
an 
> PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell 
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What is the point of all of this?  Fuzion has every stat that Hero has (with 
the exception of Comeliness which has never been of much use and everyone 
seems to have developed a house rule for, so they moved it to talent status 
and gave it some useful effects) plus two more TECH (a very useful stat) and 
MOVE (a cleaner way to handle movement.)  Therefore all of that stuff is 
moot. 
 
What Steve is talking about is how easy it is to add a NEW stat that you 
think may be lacking.  Many people have done in their house rules to better 
simulate a particular genre.  Fuzion just gave you a way to do it without 
unbalancing the rest of the game. 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:30:26 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 18 May 1998, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
> Yes, it's better for mecha than HERO is, but the entire BGC setting 
> would have benefitted from being a whole-cloth Interlock game - can anyone 
> give me one good reason why it should have been a Fuzion product?  
 
Easy - marketing.  RTG just got a nice new liscence and wanted to show off 
the new 'baby', Fuzion.  They did a poor rush job (which they have sorta 
admitted tom the first BGC book has quite a few rules errors and the 
like) and I, like John, wasn't too impressed with the game engine, or the 
'easy to convert' numbers. 
 
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* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:32:16 -0400 
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On Monday, May 18, 1998 10:04 PM, Sakura [SMTP:jeffj@io.com] wrote: 
>  
> I can put a 250-point super in a game with a 100 point normal, and have 
> the normal wind up being more effective - all it takes is the right kind 
> of campaign - say one more geared towards subtlety and investigation than  
> bashing villains with cars. 
>  
> While RoX seems to be a more elegant tool for balancing combat 
> effectiveness than the traditional HERO AP/DC limits, neither one of them 
> are any substitute for a good GM.  /Especially/ in games with less 
> emphasis on combat. 
>  
> J 
>  
> Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
> Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
 
I think this was the whole point of that exchange.  Equal point values do 
not equal characters make.  Regardless of what Rat says, there is no way 
that a 200 point warrior from fantasy hero, a 200 point private eye from 
pulp hero, a 200 point energy projector from champions and a 200 point 
starship pilot from star hero are balanced or "competative".  At least with 
Rule of X (which is simply the hero campaign guides compressed into an easy 
to use formula) you can determine cross-genre effectiveness in one area. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:37:45 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re:  Re: Why stick with HSR? 
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On Mon, 18 May 1998, Hero Games wrote: 
 
> With Fuzion, the competitiveness is rated not by how much you spent on your 
> abilities, but by your Rule of X value. While still not perfect, RoX does a 
> much better job of revealing a character's combat effectiveness than overall 
> points do for the Hero System. 
 
To this I ask: "What does combat effectiveness have to do with a good 
campaign?"   
 
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*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:42:22 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
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On Mon, 18 May 1998, Goode, Jason wrote: 
 
> I think this was the whole point of that exchange.  Equal point values do 
> not equal characters make.  Regardless of what Rat says, there is no way 
> that a 200 point warrior from fantasy hero, a 200 point private eye from 
> pulp hero, a 200 point energy projector from champions and a 200 point 
> starship pilot from star hero are balanced or "competative".  At least with 
> Rule of X (which is simply the hero campaign guides compressed into an easy 
> to use formula) you can determine cross-genre effectiveness in one area. 
 
Allow me to ask: 
 
Of what use is 'competative'?  If given the cast you've described, it's 
more a casoe of the GM having to decide 'how can I make these characters 
work well together'.  Combat effectiveness is not the answer, looking at 
each character's strength's and weaknesses is. 
 
In the example above I'd suspect some sort of odd time-travel, 
extra-dimensional rift effect, meaning that plat balance is not a 
requirement, the ability for the GM to set up situations where each 
character can shine is. 
 
All the Rule of X does is determine who well the character stands up in a 
fight, *not* the first thing I look for in most characters. 
 
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* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:46:57 -0400 
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On Monday, May 18, 1998 10:16 PM, Michael Surbrook 
[SMTP:susano@access.digex.net] wrote: 
>  
> There are two statements here that I consider reasons why I'm not so crazy 
> about Fuzion. 
>  
> The first is this: 
 
<snip> 
 
> campaign they are played.  If people can mix and match stats and point 
> values, how do I even figure out what a character can do? 
 
The same way that you do when you decide that you want to play star hero in, 
say,  Larry Niven's Ringworld.  You look at the characters and you use your 
knowledge of the game system to adapt them to what you are working in. 
 
>  
> The second is this: 
>  
 
<snip> 
 
> that there is more to a game than 'combat effectiveness'.  And I'd rahter 
> not compete with other characters, I'd rather work well with them.  The 
 
Rat's was the one who brought up 'competetiveness'.  Steve was just working 
with that because that was what Rat questioned. 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:59:37 -0400 (EDT) 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>What is the point of all of this?  Fuzion has every stat that Hero has (with 
>the exception of Comeliness which has never been of much use and everyone 
>seems to have developed a house rule for, so they moved it to talent status 
>and gave it some useful effects) 
 
Whoo-pee. Since COM had no derived stat and no associated skills anyways, it 
was pretty much a talent anyway, wasn't it? Oh, and in HERO you can buy +1 
with three skills anyway... 
 
Which brings up a point, I don't like the two-tier nature of Stat and 
Campaign points. 1 stat point = 5 campaign points, right? Why fiddle around 
with conversion factors, why not just call 1 stat point = 1 campaign point, 
and charge more for stats? Different values means more confusion. 
 
>plus two more TECH (a very useful stat) and 
>MOVE (a cleaner way to handle movement.)  Therefore all of that stuff is 
>moot. 
 
TECH is something that could be moved into HERO, as a base for stuff like 
Mechanics and Electronics and Systems Operation. I don't find MOVE, however, 
to be particularly 'cleaner'. Running and Swimming give stated values 
inherently in HERO, in Fuzion they're derived from MOVE. Which is dumb, 
considering that how fast someone can run really shouldn't have a bearing on 
how fast they can swim - at least not to the extent that the abilities will 
always be in proportion to one another like they are in Fuzion. 
 
>What Steve is talking about is how easy it is to add a NEW stat that you 
>think may be lacking.  Many people have done in their house rules to better 
>simulate a particular genre.  Fuzion just gave you a way to do it without 
>unbalancing the rest of the game. 
 
HERO had the same ability, just not explicitly stated. I could add TECH to 
HERO and not unbalance things, ditto inherent Mental Defense and so on. This 
is not a 'fix' on the part of Fuzion. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!" 
-Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:00:19 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
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On Mon, 18 May 1998, Goode, Jason wrote: 
 
> > The first is this: 
>  
> <snip> 
>  
> > campaign they are played.  If people can mix and match stats and point 
> > values, how do I even figure out what a character can do? 
>  
> The same way that you do when you decide that you want to play star hero in, 
> say,  Larry Niven's Ringworld.  You look at the characters and you use your 
> knowledge of the game system to adapt them to what you are working in. 
 
Uh... pardon?  I'm given a Fuzion character to play in my Fuzion game, and 
you tell me I have to 'use your knowledge of the game system to adapt them 
to what you are working in'?  What is that supposed to mean?  You make 
it sound like I've got convert from Fuzion 1.2 to Fuzion 1.3 in order to 
make things work out right.  I don't see this sort of converting and 
adding and subtracting of stats in Hero games. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:04:46 -0400 
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On Monday, May 18, 1998 10:38 PM, Michael Surbrook 
[SMTP:susano@access.digex.net] wrote: 
> To this I ask: "What does combat effectiveness have to do with a good 
> campaign?"  
 
Depends on the campaign.  Regardless, why are you getting on Steve?  He was 
just addressing the question asked. 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:05:43 -0500 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
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>   What it really seems to boil down to, at least in my view, is whether 
>you want a solid game system or a solid universe. 
>   The Hero Game System is a very solid system -- its mechanics are pretty 
>consistent from one world to the next.   
>   Fuzion has several strong settings, starting with Bubblegum Crisis and 
>Champions: The New Millennium.  However, while these settings are 
>consistent and well fleshed-out, the game system is not.  
 
Factoid 1: Players and GMs will frequently use their own homegrown settings. 
Factoid 2: Very frequently, RPG "setting" books are sufficiently generic 
they can be dropped into any of several game systems with no alteration. 
 
Considering the above, I'd argue that it only makes sense to choose your 
game system on the basis of how solid the game system itself if; you can 
pick up a universe anywhere, or create your own if you prefer.  Barring the 
occasional house rule, people aren't going to create their own game 
systems, however. 
 
That means, to me, the primary consideration by a considerable margin is 
how well does the system -- irrespective of setting -- hang together?  The 
company that sells me on that gets my business for game products, including 
first shot at my gaming dollar for "setting" books.  I've used Hero system 
to play Bureau 13, and I'm currently in a GURPS game set on Harnworld.  I 
chose the Hero system over the TriTac game after comparing the game 
mechanics, then I dropped the Bureau 13 setting into that game.  Our GURPS 
GM felt he liked the GURPS mechanics better than those of Harn, so he 
adopted only the Harn setting for a GUPRS campaign. 
 
It would seem ludicrous to me to say "I'm running a Bureau 13 campaign, it 
just uses Hero rules".  The game system defines the campaign, everything 
else is window dressing. 
 
Damon 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:08:55 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: CHAR: Superman (1938) 
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[The following is my attempt to write up Superman per his *very* first 
appearence in Action Comics #1 in 1938.  I was also shooting for *exactly* 
250 points, so I wasn't quite as 'efficent' as some people might prefer. 
You cna probably shave 25 points pretty easy, although a 200 point 
Superman might be a bit much in the compression department.  Anyway, 
enjoy...] 
 
SUPERMAN 
(Clark Kent) 
 
Val	CHA	Cost	Roll	Notes 
35	STR	25	16-	3600kg; 7d6 
20	DEX	30	13-	OCV: 7 / DCV: 7 
28	CON	36	15-	 
13	BODY	6	12-	 
13	INT	3	12-	PER Roll 12- 
13	EGO	6	12-	ECV: 4 
20	PRE	10	13-	PRE Attack: 4d6 
10	COM	0	11-	 
25	PD	18		Total: 25 PD / 20 PDr 
20	ED	14		Total: 20 ED / 20 EDr 
4	SPD	10		Phases: 3, 6, 9, 12 
12	REC	-2		 
56	END	0		 
45	STUN	0		 
Total Characteristics Cost: 156 
 
Movement:	Running: 26" / 52" 
	Superleap: 50" / 100" 
	Swimming: 2" / 4" 
 
Cost	Powers & Skills 
20	Superhuman Resistance: Damage Resistance 20 PD/ED 
43	Superhuman Speed Multipower: 43 Point Pool 
8	u - Running: +20" (26" Total), END 5 
9	u - Leaping: Superleap: +43" (50" Total), END 10 
 
Background Skills: 
1	Perk: Press Pass 
3	Acrobatics 13- 
3	Acting 13- 
3	AK: Home City 12- 
1	KS: Politics 8- 
2	PS: Photographer 11- 
2	PS: Reporter 11- 
94	Total Powers & Skills Cost 
250	Total Character Cost 
 
100+	Disadvantages 
15	DNPC: Lois, reporter for the Daily Star (Normal) 11- 
	Psychological Limitation: 
15	Dedicated to helping those in need (VS, M) 
10	Not above using strong-arm tactics (C, M) 
15	Secret ID: Clark Kent, reporter for the Daily Star 
95	Experience 
250	Total Disadvantage Points 
 
Background/History: 
Superman's background can be summed up best by the first page of his 
appearance in Action Comics No. 1:  
 
"As a distant planet was destroyed by old age, a scientist placed his 
infant son within a hastily devised space-ship, launching it toward Earth! 
 
"When the vehicle landed on Earth, a passing motorist, discovering the 
sleeping babe within, turned the child over to an orphanage." 
 
As one can easily see, Superman's original origin is very sketchy. 
Krypton is unnamed, there is no mention of Jor-El (Superman's father), and 
Ma and Pa Kent don't even exist.  In his secret identity of Clark Kent, he 
does work as a newspaper reporter, but it is the Daily Star, not the Daily 
Planet.  The first issue does introduce Lois (no last name), but the 
editor is just 'Chief', with no mention of Perry White.   
 
Much of the more recognizable elements of the Superman 'myth' (Jimmie 
Olsen, Lois Lane, Kryptonite) will be created over the next few months. 
By late 1939, Superman had become the top-selling comic book on the 
market, with better than 1,000,000 issues sold per month! 
 
Personality/Motivation: 
"Early, Clark Kent decided he must turn his titanic strength into channels 
that would benefit mankind.  And so was created... SUPERMAN!  Champion of 
the oppressed, the physical marvel who has sworn to devote his existance 
to helping those in need!" 
 
As yet, Superman does not stand for "Truth, Justice and the American 
Way!".  His first appearance presents him a simple strong-arm hero, who 
rights wrongs simple by virtue of his great physical prowess.  The more 
modern Superman, with his tight code of conduct (such as a total 
abhorrence for killing) is only barely recognizable within the framework 
of the first Superman story.  This Superman resolves a wife-beating by 
tossing around the abusive husband (and threatening him with an even worse 
beating), shattering the car of a pack of gangsters, and taking an 
uncommunicative Washington lobbyist along a terrifying rooftop tour of the 
Capitol to force him to talk.  Not quite what most people consider 
'heroic' actions, at least in the mold of the modern Superman. 
 
Quote: So you're one of these silent men, eh?  We'll see, whether you'll 
talk! 
 
Powers/Tactics: 
One again we turn to Action Comics No. 1:  
 
"When maturity was reached, he discovered he could easily: Leap 1/8th of a 
mile; hurdle a twenty-story building... raise tremendous weights... run 
faster than an express train...and that nothing less than a bursting shell 
could penetrate his skin!" 
 
It has been pointed out that Superman powers are very similar to the 
powers displayed by the hero of Philip Wylie's book Gladiator.  In many 
ways he is also similar to Edgar Rice Burroughs' John Carter of Mars, who 
was able to leap great distances and display great feats of strength 
thanks to his Earth-born muscles.  Superman is pretty typical for a 
Champion's brick, in fact, he might seem a bit weak.  Later, as his 
popularity grew, so did Superman's powers, probably reaching the height of 
absurdity during the late 50's and early 60's, when he pulled such stunts 
as blowing out a star with his 'super-breath'. 
 
Appearance: 
Tall, broad-shouldered, short black hair; Superman's physical appearance 
has not changed much since his initial appearance.  His distinctive spit 
curl will come later, right now, Superman looks to slick his hair back 
when acting in costume.  It is Superman's costume that has undergone the 
more obvious changes.  It's a blue bodystocking with red trunks and a 
yellow belt, but the 'big red 'S'' is missing.  Instead, we have a yellow 
shield-shaped symbol with the vauge suggestion of an 'S' indicated. 
Superman's red boots are missing as well, instead he has strips of cloth 
wrapped around his low legs, resembling the leggings worn by the Norse or 
the straps of Roman sandles. 
 
(Superman created Jerome Siegel and Joe Shuster.  Superman )1965-1998 DC 
Comics, Inc.  Character sheet created by Michael Surbrook) 
 
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*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:10:51 -0400 
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On Monday, May 18, 1998 10:42 PM, Michael Surbrook 
[SMTP:susano@access.digex.net] wrote: 
>  
> Allow me to ask: 
>  
> Of what use is 'competative'?  
 
Don't know, Michael.  You'll have to ask Rat.  He's the one who wanted the 
cross-genre characters to be 'competative'. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:11:53 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
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On Mon, 18 May 1998, Goode, Jason wrote: 
 
> > To this I ask: "What does combat effectiveness have to do with a good 
> > campaign?"  
>  
> Depends on the campaign.   
 
Thus rending the 'Rule of X' meaningless in my opinion. 
 
> Regardless, why are you getting on Steve?  He was 
> just addressing the question asked. 
  
I am not 'getting on Steve', I am offering rebuttal to his assertations 
concerning the validity of the 'Rule of X'.  He addressed the question 
asked and I'm questioning his answers. 
  
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:13:19 -0400 
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On Monday, May 18, 1998 8:20 PM, jprins@interhop.net 
[SMTP:jprins@interhop.net] wrote: 
 
<snippage> 
 
> John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
> jprins@interhop.net 
 
Thanks for the tip on the Usagi Yojimbo.  I'll pick it up and check it out. 
 
Sorry you didn't like BGC.  I've never been an anime fan, but I have a 
friend who is and he loves BGC.  SO much so that he went and bought the 
other 2 books that cover the other umpteen zillion episodes and movies and 
have the mecha generation system. 
 
Both you and Rat talked about difficulties in converting between BGC and 
C:NM.  I didn't understand the specific examples cited. 
 
Both games have the exact same stats except Presence/Personality which are 
the exact same stat with slightly different names. 
 
Character generation is the exact same. 
 
Slightly different skill lists due to genre differences (boomers, giant 
mecha, etc.) 
 
Complications are just Hero4 Disads with a different name. 
 
A quick RoX will tell you how they compare combat-wise. 
 
and on and on and on. 
 
Only thing I can figure is a lack of taking the time to really figure out 
Fuzion like you did Champions/Hero4. 
 
Anywho, why not just convert everything over to Mekton or Hero4? 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:15:44 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  Any word on H5? 
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In a message dated 5/18/98 7:03:34 PM, Dino@En.com wrote: 
 
>What's in it?  (Besides changing Aid to 10/d6) and When will it come 
>out? 
 
The 5th Edition of the Hero System is being completely rewritten for clarity. 
We're trying to define powers more precisely, and provide more examples, so 
that our intent is clearly understood. We're also trying to incorporate some 
of the fixes and extensions that have presented over the last nine years. 
 
Steve Long is currently working on the book. We're planning to release it 
sometime this fall. We'll have a more precise release date when we get closer 
to release. 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games  
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:18:03 -0500 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: RE: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>I think this was the whole point of that exchange.  Equal point values do 
>not equal characters make.  Regardless of what Rat says, there is no way 
>that a 200 point warrior from fantasy hero, a 200 point private eye from 
>pulp hero, a 200 point energy projector from champions and a 200 point 
>starship pilot from star hero are balanced or "competative".  At least with 
>Rule of X (which is simply the hero campaign guides compressed into an easy 
>to use formula) you can determine cross-genre effectiveness in one area. 
 
Equal point values do not *necessarily* equal characters make, that much is 
true.  However, just as you refute <someone's> inferred claim that any 
given 200 point character is automatically competitive with any other 200 
point character, I have to refute the above statement, because you've gone 
too far in the other direction.   
 
You are claiming that the four characters listed above, despite their equal 
point totals, *CANNOT* be balanced or competitive.  I see no way you can 
make this claim accurately without knowing what those characters spent 
their 200 points on or what the campaign is like. 
 
Damon 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:19:56 -0400 
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On Monday, May 18, 1998 8:20 PM, jprins@interhop.net 
[SMTP:jprins@interhop.net] wrote: 
> >The only real difference between (total) Fuzion and Instant Fuzion is the 
> >compression/decompression of the character stats. 
>  
> And the removal of talents and perks. And the removal of complications and 
> power building. At least in Usagi Yojimbo. The simplification really helps 
> in the area of skills, as you no longer have to figure out what skill goes 
> with what stat in a circumstance - it's usually very obvious. In regular 
 
This is a function of the setting, not Instant Fuzion.  The author didn't 
feel that superpowers, etc., were appropriate in UY, so he left them out. 
Plug-ins can be plugged-out if they aren't appropriate for the steeting. 
 
> Fuzion, you can get instances where it might be INT or TECH, REF or DEX, 
and 
> thus you get arguments and confusion. 
>  
 
Never had this problem.  Everything is spelled out well enough or given 
sufficient examples to prevent this. 
 
>  
> Oh yeah. UY combat can be very, very fast - and very, very deadly. 
>  
 
Such was life in fuedal Japan. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:20:50 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  Re:  Re: Why stick with HSR? 
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In a message dated 5/18/98 7:07:02 PM, jeffj@io.com wrote: 
 
>Wow.  I'm really not sure to make of this.  It /sounds/ like you're saying 
>that combat is the only thing that needs to be balanced in gameplay, but 
>I'm hoping that's not it... 
 
Combat is certainly the most difficult thing to balance for inexperienced 
GM's. If that doesn't work out, the rest of the game probably won't. 
 
>I can put a 250-point super in a game with a 100 point normal, and have 
>the normal wind up being more effective - all it takes is the right kind 
>of campaign - say one more geared towards subtlety and investigation than  
>bashing villains with cars. 
> 
>While RoX seems to be a more elegant tool for balancing combat 
>effectiveness than the traditional HERO AP/DC limits, neither one of them 
>are any substitute for a good GM.  /Especially/ in games with less 
>emphasis on combat. 
 
You're absolutely right. The importance of any RPG's rule set is for the 
inexperienced GM. Expert GM's can make any set of rules work well. Fuzion is 
targeted in many cases at new or inexperienced roleplayers, and thus we tried 
to build in more features to make it a better game experience for them. The 
kind of GM's who populate this list don't need that kind of assistance in 
general. 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games  
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:24:23 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
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On Mon, 18 May 1998, Goode, Jason wrote: 
 
> Sorry you didn't like BGC.  I've never been an anime fan, but I have a 
> friend who is and he loves BGC.  SO much so that he went and bought the 
> other 2 books that cover the other umpteen zillion episodes and movies and 
> have the mecha generation system. 
 
At least count here is only 11 episodes, and only 8 of those really 
count. 
  
> Anywho, why not just convert everything over to Mekton or Hero4? 
 
Because the stats given are a joke and result in Hero characters that are 
laughable.  I don't have my book handy, but I think we get things like 
Priss with a CON of 30, Linna with a 30 DEX, Leon with a 20-something STR 
(etc).  All the major characters have stats of 20+ in almost everything. 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:28:29 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
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> Such was life in fuedal Japan. 
 
IT'S SPELLED *FEUDAL*!!! 
 
This is, like, the third time I've seen it misspelled (and not just by 
Jason) in this thread! 
 
Ahem... 
 
uh...  
 
err...  
 
sorry. 
 
I was just in a feudal Japan game and regularly play SCA and stuff like 
that gets to me. 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:33:14 -0400 
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On Monday, May 18, 1998 11:00 PM, Michael Surbrook 
[SMTP:susano@access.digex.net] wrote: 
>  
> Uh... pardon?  I'm given a Fuzion character to play in my Fuzion game, and 
> you tell me I have to 'use your knowledge of the game system to adapt them 
> to what you are working in'?  What is that supposed to mean?  You make 
> it sound like I've got convert from Fuzion 1.2 to Fuzion 1.3 in order to 
> make things work out right.  I don't see this sort of converting and 
> adding and subtracting of stats in Hero games. 
>  
 
Now I understand why the last few comments you made seemed so weird.  You 
must have jumped in mid-thread.  THe topic was cross-genre compatability. 
That's the conversion they were talking about. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 20:34:27 -0700 
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com> 
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com 
Organization: None 
To: HSR <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
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My two cents. 
I like HSR and have since I figued out that you didn't roll for characterisitics 
(I was young). I have owned (at least at one time or another) almost everything 
Hero has put out. Some I love (Champions, Classic Enemies) some I loathed (Star 
Hero). But I stick with HSR for two reasons. 
 
1) I know the system well. I don't really want to learn a new system even if it 
similar. I don't have math problems because I recognize how some power modifier 
combos go after making thousands of Characters. I have little if any trouble 
figuring out rules anymore. It is an ingraned system and I' comfortable with it. 
 
2) I don't want to spend the money on another system. 
3) Most of the guys I game with play HSR. If that changed so would I. 
 
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:34:34 EDT 
To: susano@access.digex.net, owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  Re:  Re: Why stick with HSR? 
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In a message dated 5/18/98 7:21:40 PM, susano@access.digex.net wrote: 
 
>"...You see, the utility of a given ability (and therefore its cost) 
>should vary with the needs of a given campaign." 
> 
>Basically, this means there is no common denominator among powers and 
>skills.  This, combined with Sean P Fannon's statements to the effect of 
>'don't like a stat (or don't see one you want)?  Make a *new* one!' can 
>combine to create characters that are unrecognizable outside of the 
>campaign they are played.  If people can mix and match stats and point 
>values, how do I even figure out what a character can do? 
 
Fuzion merely codifies what many Hero System GM's do already: modify the 
system to suit their needs. Rtaher than try to force everyone to adhere to a 
strict set of rules, we wanted to provide tools to let individuals modify the 
rules according to certain guidelines. That way, they could get a rules set 
better tailored to produce the style desired in their own campaign, and yet 
maintain compatibility (and a concept of relative power and capability). 
 
It's pretty clear to me that the utility and therefore cost of things varies 
from campaign to campaign. This concept is already present in the Hero System, 
in the way Disads are handled. The frequency of a Disad affects its cost. The 
logical extension of this is that power costs can be varied according to the 
needs of the campaign. For instance, if mental powers are extremely common, 
perhaps everyone should have Mental Defense for free (which some campaigns 
do). 
 
>The second is this: 
> 
>"So how you built your character, or how many points you're built on, 
>isn't as important as how effectively you can compete with other 
>characters." 
> 
>What do I get out of this?  Concept is not important, the ability of this 
>set of numbers to kill other sets of numbers is.  Sorry, I really hope 
>that there is more to a game than 'combat effectiveness'.  And I'd rahter 
>not compete with other characters, I'd rather work well with them.  The 
>'Rule of X' sounds just a touch too simplified to me. 
 
No, you misunderstand what I'm trying to say. The importance of balance in 
combat is for inexperienced GM's. If the numbers don't work, newbie GM's and 
players won't stick around to find out about the roleplaying. I used the term 
"effectiveness" not in the sense of it being the most important thing in the 
game, but in the sense of "effectiveness relative to other characters." The 
Rule of X is a tool to help GM's, particularly less experienced ones. Expert 
GM's and players really don't need any help of that sort to have a fun game; 
balance isn't necessary for experts to have a good time playing. The people on 
this list are almost (if not all) experts, but we have to design games to be 
fun for new players, too. 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games  
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 20:35:09 -0700 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Superman (1938) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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I agree with most of what you wrote, but I'd still up his STR to 45 or even 
50 -- he was capable of crushing a gun in one hand in a single casual 
squeeze, and of easily tossing a car around -- at STR 35, he'd need to 
strain too much. 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:40:34 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
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On Mon, 18 May 1998, Goode, Jason wrote: 
 
> > Uh... pardon?  I'm given a Fuzion character to play in my Fuzion game, and 
> > you tell me I have to 'use your knowledge of the game system to adapt them 
> > to what you are working in'?  What is that supposed to mean?  You make 
> > it sound like I've got convert from Fuzion 1.2 to Fuzion 1.3 in order to 
> > make things work out right.  I don't see this sort of converting and 
> > adding and subtracting of stats in Hero games. 
> >  
>  
> Now I understand why the last few comments you made seemed so weird.  You 
> must have jumped in mid-thread.  THe topic was cross-genre compatability. 
> That's the conversion they were talking about. 
 
No, I was here from the start.  And yes, I'm commenting on the cross-genre 
compatability.  Why should I have to 'convert' from one genre to another? 
This is why I dislike Fuzion, one can add and subtract stats willy-nilly, 
resulting in characters that could make little sense outside of the home 
campaign.  If I drop a heroic level fantsy swordsmen into a Star Trek 
world, I don't have to convert anything, all I really have to do is accept 
the fact that most of his skills won't be of much use on a Federation 
starship. 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 20:42:22 -0700 (PDT) 
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To: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
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>TECH is something that could be moved into HERO, as a base for stuff like 
>Mechanics and Electronics and Systems Operation. I don't find MOVE, however, 
>to be particularly 'cleaner'. Running and Swimming give stated values 
>inherently in HERO, in Fuzion they're derived from MOVE. Which is dumb, 
>considering that how fast someone can run really shouldn't have a bearing on 
>how fast they can swim - at least not to the extent that the abilities will 
>always be in proportion to one another like they are in Fuzion. 
> 
 
It is an interesting split. Though can simulate an inventive genius by 
getting an average Int and losts of levels with Techical skills. Not as 
straight forward but I thought it worth pointing out.  
 
 
Minor Fuzion Nitpick:I didn't like that leaping distance was split from 
strength.  
 
 
>HERO had the same ability, just not explicitly stated. I could add TECH to 
>HERO and not unbalance things, ditto inherent Mental Defense and so on. This 
>is not a 'fix' on the part of Fuzion. 
 
 
I think this has come up before. Hero is adaptable and expandable. Its not 
laid out but its there. I've added "stats" like Mana, Chi and Sanity for a 
few games and I'm currently working a mental combat "plug in" at the moment.  
 
And if you don't want to add, just use the building blocks that are already 
there. Chi and Mana can be endurance reserves. Something that drives you 
insanse, a transform or drain vs Int/Ego.  
 
That is something I like about Hero 4th Edition. If I want to tinker I can. 
If don't, I don't have to.  
 
I'm not a huge fan of Fuzion. I think its a step up from pure Interlock and 
a small step down from Hero 4th. Fuzion does do some things well and I'm 
looking forward to the Power contruction book for possible adaptation ideas 
for Hero.  
I know violence doesn't solve all problems... 
	But it sure feels good! 
		Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:45:12 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re:  Re:  Re: Why stick with HSR? 
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On Mon, 18 May 1998, Hero Games wrote: 
 
> Fuzion merely codifies what many Hero System GM's do already: modify the 
> system to suit their needs. Rtaher than try to force everyone to adhere to a 
> strict set of rules, we wanted to provide tools to let individuals modify the 
> rules according to certain guidelines. That way, they could get a rules set 
> better tailored to produce the style desired in their own campaign, and yet 
> maintain compatibility (and a concept of relative power and capability). 
 
Personally, I'd prefer a more stricter set of core rules with notes about 
individual play, than a loose set of rules that are designed to be 
modified by anyone and everyone.  That way we get a nice common ground to 
work from.   
 
BTW: has anyone considered the possible disaster a pick-up Fuzion game at 
a con could be? 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:52:10 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Superman (1938) 
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On Mon, 18 May 1998, Lizard wrote: 
 
> I agree with most of what you wrote, but I'd still up his STR to 45 or even 
> 50 -- he was capable of crushing a gun in one hand in a single casual 
> squeeze, and of easily tossing a car around -- at STR 35, he'd need to 
> strain too much. 
 
Note, I sasid 'very first appearence'.  Also, a 35 STR does 7d6, and a gun 
has a DEF of 4 and a BODY of 3, instant scrap metal on the average roll. 
He did hold up a car with one hand, and since it takes 30 STR to pick up a 
1938 car, and a 35 lets one hold 2 x that, I figured a 35 worked out well. 
As a second note, Supes did use two hands to pcik up and dash that car 
into the ground/hill in his fasmous comic cover.  I suspect it only took a 
few issues before he was displaying a 45+ STR though. 
  
 
*************************************************************************** 
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*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:55:31 -0400 
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On Monday, May 18, 1998 11:18 PM, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin 
[SMTP:griffin@txdirect.net] wrote: 
>  
> You are claiming that the four characters listed above, despite their 
equal 
> point totals, *CANNOT* be balanced or competitive.  I see no way you can 
> make this claim accurately without knowing what those characters spent 
> their 200 points on or what the campaign is like. 
>  
 
They are from different genres and therefore have different skills and 
abilities available to them.  I think I can accurately claim that a 200 
point Conan wannabe is not balanced/competative/whatever with the 200 point 
Golden Age Sandman. 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:56:28 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
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On Mon, 18 May 1998, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
> Which brings up a point, I don't like the two-tier nature of Stat and 
> Campaign points. 1 stat point = 5 campaign points, right? Why fiddle around 
> with conversion factors, why not just call 1 stat point = 1 campaign point, 
> and charge more for stats? Different values means more confusion. 
 
Actually, this is from the Interlock roots of Fuzion - in Interlock games, 
stat points and skill points were separate (although skill points are 
based on certain stats). 
 
It provides a decent handle for GMs that want a little finer control over 
how the points are spent - it can stop or limit characters minmaxing their 
attribute/skill ratios, for example (this is generally a bigger issue in 
GURPS, but it can happen in Fuzion, too).  
 
It allows the GM to adjust the ratio of 'raw natural talent' vs 'training' 
in any way he desires - and with the GMs permission, the players can also 
adjust this ratio by trading between the two types of points. 
 
If you don't like it, you could always say each point of a stat costs 5 
points, and just give the characters the proper number of points 
(5xStat+Option) - a fairly easy fix. 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:58:01 -0400 
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On Monday, May 18, 1998 11:24 PM, Michael Surbrook 
[SMTP:susano@access.digex.net] wrote: 
>  
> Because the stats given are a joke and result in Hero characters that are 
> laughable.  I don't have my book handy, but I think we get things like 
> Priss with a CON of 30, Linna with a 30 DEX, Leon with a 20-something STR 
> (etc).  All the major characters have stats of 20+ in almost everything. 
>  
 
 
Like I said, not a fan.  Don't know the genre.  I do know that those girl, 
like all anime can take way more punishment than any human IRL.  May those 
stats are accurate portrayals of what happens on the screen. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 21:04:04 -0700 
From: James Jandebeur <james@javaman.to> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Off Topic:  Problem with filter 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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I am having difficulty setting my filters in Netscape Communicator to 
file my Herolist mail into its folder.  I have tried using both champ 
and hero, nothing moves.  Any suggestions as to why this might be 
happening?  My other filters all work. 
 
JAJ, Unfiltered Gaming Philosopher 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 00:09:23 -0400 
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On Monday, May 18, 1998 11:00 PM, jprins@interhop.net 
[SMTP:jprins@interhop.net] wrote: 
> Whoo-pee. Since COM had no derived stat and no associated skills anyways, 
it 
> was pretty much a talent anyway, wasn't it? Oh, and in HERO you can buy +1 
> with three skills anyway... 
 
So, they make offical what everybody was using for a house rule, and you get 
sarcastic with me?  That makes sense... 
 
 
>  
> Which brings up a point, I don't like the two-tier nature of Stat and 
> Campaign points. 1 stat point = 5 campaign points, right? Why fiddle 
around 
> with conversion factors, why not just call 1 stat point = 1 campaign 
point, 
> and charge more for stats? Different values means more confusion. 
 
No more confusing than Hero.  Look, you are already using conversion 
factors.  1 point = 1 point of STR, but 1/3 point of DEX, and only +1/10 
Speed.  1 level of growth costs 5 points, but 1 level of shrinking costs 10 
points.  This is only more confusing than Hero, because you are used to 
Hero. 
 
 
> TECH is something that could be moved into HERO, as a base for stuff like 
> Mechanics and Electronics and Systems Operation. I don't find MOVE, 
however, 
> to be particularly 'cleaner'. Running and Swimming give stated values 
> inherently in HERO, in Fuzion they're derived from MOVE. Which is dumb, 
> considering that how fast someone can run really shouldn't have a bearing 
on 
> how fast they can swim - at least not to the extent that the abilities 
will 
> always be in proportion to one another like they are in Fuzion. 
 
Like they are always in proportion in Hero4  - 6" run and and 2" swim? 
Let's see..that's a 3:1 ratio; let's check Fuzion..hmm 3:1 ration there too. 
Amazing, hunh?  Guess what - you can buy them up or down in both systems! 
No Difference other than (IMHO) a clearer, simpler presentation, 
particularly for new players unfamiliar with either system. 
 
>  
> >What Steve is talking about is how easy it is to add a NEW stat that you 
> >think may be lacking.  Many people have done in their house rules to 
better 
> >simulate a particular genre.  Fuzion just gave you a way to do it without 
> >unbalancing the rest of the game. 
>  
> HERO had the same ability, just not explicitly stated. I could add TECH to 
> HERO and not unbalance things, ditto inherent Mental Defense and so on. 
This 
> is not a 'fix' on the part of Fuzion. 
 
So what's the problem with 'explicitly stating' it?  Clearing things up 
instead of leaving them all murky is a bad thing? 
 
 
> John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
> jprins@interhop.net 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: HSR <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 00:11:02 -0400 
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On Monday, May 18, 1998 11:34 PM, Chad Riley 
[SMTP:chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com] wrote: 
> Hero). But I stick with HSR for two reasons. 
>  
> 1) I know the system well. I don't really want to learn a new system even 
if it 
> similar. I don't have math problems because I recognize how some power 
modifier 
> combos go after making thousands of Characters. I have little if any 
trouble 
> figuring out rules anymore. It is an ingraned system and I' comfortable 
with it. 
 
 
Which Hero has advocated all along.  If you like it and it works for you, 
stick with it. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 00:13:50 -0400 
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On Monday, May 18, 1998 11:28 PM, Michael Surbrook 
[SMTP:susano@access.digex.net] wrote: 
>  
> > Such was life in fuedal Japan. 
>  
> IT'S SPELLED *FEUDAL*!!! 
>  
> This is, like, the third time I've seen it misspelled (and not just by 
> Jason) in this thread! 
>  
> Ahem... 
>  
> uh...  
>  
> err...  
>  
> sorry. 
>  
> I was just in a feudal Japan game and regularly play SCA and stuff like 
> that gets to me. 
 
umm..Michael...there's this drug called Valium.  Seems like you could get 
some good usage out of it.  8) 
 
If it makes you feel better, I'll let the spell checker finish checking 
before I send out e-mails from now on. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 00:19:07 -0400 
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On Monday, May 18, 1998 11:41 PM, Michael Surbrook 
[SMTP:susano@access.digex.net] wrote: 
> No, I was here from the start.  And yes, I'm commenting on the cross-genre 
> compatability.  Why should I have to 'convert' from one genre to another? 
> This is why I dislike Fuzion, one can add and subtract stats willy-nilly, 
> resulting in characters that could make little sense outside of the home 
> campaign.  If I drop a heroic level fantsy swordsmen into a Star Trek 
> world, I don't have to convert anything, all I really have to do is accept 
> the fact that most of his skills won't be of much use on a Federation 
> starship. 
 
 
Then I misunderstood.  There is no conversion.  The big thing brought up was 
BGC.  I don't understand what the problem here is.  We've dropped C:NM chars 
into BGC with NO problem.  Not one.  No muss, no fuss, no conversion. 
 
Only thing I can figure is that these guys do way more cross-genre Fuzion 
than me. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject:  Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 00:25:22 -0400 
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On Monday, May 18, 1998 11:45 PM, Michael Surbrook 
[SMTP:susano@access.digex.net] wrote: 
>  
> BTW: has anyone considered the possible disaster a pick-up Fuzion game at 
> a con could be? 
>  
 
Actually, this was discussed over on the Fuzion list.  The folks involved 
said that it only took a couple of minutes for everyone to adjust. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 21:43:45 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
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John Desmarais wrote: 
>  
> > pointing out the relative difficulty in killing people. 
>  
> 3d6 to the head?  A base normal has 10 body and 0 rPD.  3d6 killing 
> averages 11.5 body.  Hit someone anywhere but the feet or hands and he 
> is dying, and IIRC will bleed to death in less than two minutes. 
 
Without attention from someone with Paramedic skill or a BODY Aid.  I  
have never seen a group of more than two PCs who lacked both. 
 
> Suprisingly realistic for Hero System :) 
 
I believe that the point was that 3D6K is *huge* in terms of blowing  
holes in armor, etc.  A weapon of that size should kill outright, unless  
it hits a limb, in which case it should blow the limb off. 
 
>  
> If you aim for the head, an 1.5d6k is enough to kill (1d6+1 with a 
> slightly better than average roll). 
 
A .38 is typically pointed as a 1D6+1K: hitting a 10 BODY normal in the  
head with a 1D6+1K cannot possibly kill the person outright, and may not  
even place the person on the dying schedule.  In any case, the good guys  
will have a full minute at absolute minimum to win the battle and save  
the victim.  Since most Champions battles take only one or two turns to  
resolve, this is not generally a problem. 
 
I don't know what the mortality statistics are for real-world single  
gunshot wounds to the head, but I suspect that at least 25% of all such  
victims are dead before they hit the ground. 
 
Of course, whether this is a bug or a feature depends on genre, but the  
idea of Hero is, allegedly, to support all genres, and that  
should include deadly ones. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:13:49 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: GAZZA's Analysis of the Champions List 
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Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>  
 
> > >      My question is... WHAT is a Great Linked Debate?!?!? 
 
>  
> Well, as I saw it, the more contentious question was whether you could 
> activate multiple Powers in a single attack by default, or whether the 
> Powers needed to be Linked. (The two issues really aren't connected at 
> all, but both are referred to as "The Great Linked Debate".) 
 
And, of course, since these two debates cannot be engaged in without  
engaging in both, they are clearly Linked(-1/2)! 
 
;-) ;-) ;-) 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 15:14:19 +1000 
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>  
> > Herophiles, on the other hand, fail to notice that points alone do not 
> > denote either portability or utility.  I can take a 200 point 
skill-heavy 
> > character from an X-Files campaign and plop her right in the middle of 
a 
> > 200 point Superheroic campaign, and she is more than likely going to be 
> > SCREWED.  Why?  Because she's not slinging multiple dice of attacks. 
>  
> To which I must ask, why is this person trying to fight supers on the 
> super's ground when she is a hell of a lot more intelligent and educated 
> than that?  Player stupidity is no evidence of a failing in a game 
system. 
>  
 
i mean you could argue the same thing about supers- like who doesn't jean 
grey have the guts to box with juggernaught? becasu it's NOT HER 
DEPARTMENT!!  
This sort of 'dice/spd/def' view of genre is just plain dumb. The whole 
point of a super team is that different character have different strengths. 
plus i have an example  
of such a character- valerie cooper in x-factor for some time.  
 
 
 
> > [etc] 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
> Version: 2.6.3a 
> Charset: noconv 
>  
> iQCVAwUBNWDU1Z6VRH7BJMxHAQFgPAP+Mkc7hoiNGxwlsAYuXGi/aXe7LIWUf5Nj 
> XjcD3z6eV+aAtulGa1aVlvC/iPFeXZ1xCp3gqYSUDtqVz2bEYlACLHCnrt7dzVxU 
> ha3VcOEY2S/eetB40R2olB6+J6UiOE/E6T+KGEgpGMAK5VHTllcsIiKUD/EqAUCL 
> yfZNYxIJgv8= 
> =9KDK 
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 
>  
> --  
> Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, 
get 
> PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and 
cover 
>                                     \ head. 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 00:38:07 -0500 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: RE: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>> You are claiming that the four characters listed above, despite their 
>equal 
>> point totals, *CANNOT* be balanced or competitive.  I see no way you can 
>> make this claim accurately without knowing what those characters spent 
>> their 200 points on or what the campaign is like. 
>>  
> 
>They are from different genres and therefore have different skills and 
>abilities available to them.  I think I can accurately claim that a 200 
>point Conan wannabe is not balanced/competative/whatever with the 200 point 
>Golden Age Sandman. 
 
I don't think you can claim that it's not possible.  If it happens it 
reflects the GM's failure to design a campaign backdrop that is supportive 
of mixed genres. 
 
It doesn't matter if they have different backgrounds and skills, so long as 
the campaign allows each character equal opportunity to be effective with 
whatever skills/powers/whatever he has.  You don't run a Champions game 
with all bricks, or all energy projectors, or all mentalists.  The 
characters within a single genre will have different backgrounds and 
abilities.  When you mix genres, once again the characters will have 
different backgrounds and abilities.  The only difference is that the 
campaign setting needs to be one that will give all the characters equal 
opportunity to shine.  No, it wouldn't work very well if you dropped Conan 
into a Star Hero campaign where all the other characters were high-tech 
heroes.  In a modern day "Lost World" setting, it would be a different 
story.   
 
What determines how well one 200 point character balances against another 
200 point character (or another character of any point total, for that 
matter) isn't what his background is, but what the campaign gives him an 
opportunity to do *with* that background.  If you try to use a campaign 
background that it "pure" fantasy (or space opera, or western) and just 
drop characters in from other genres, the "foreign" characters may not have 
enough to do.  If you want to incorporate characters from different genres, 
the campaign background has to reflect that.   
 
Lawrence Watt-Evans "Shadow" trilogy was good for this.  Three universes 
were connected by gates; our own mundane universe, a generic 
pseudo-medieval magic/fantasy realm, and the universe of the Empire, 
straight out of a 1930's Flash Gordon serial.  Rocketships, rayguns, but 
not much *we* think of as high-tech.  Imperial troops visited our world, 
where their rocketship promptly crashed, because the antigravity device 
that powers the drive simply doesn't work here.  Nor does magic.  
 
Damon 
 
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From: Hero Games <HeroGames@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 01:39:43 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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In a message dated 5/18/98 8:07:09 PM, jprins@interhop.net wrote: 
 
>Which brings up a point, I don't like the two-tier nature of Stat and 
>Campaign points. 1 stat point = 5 campaign points, right? Why fiddle around 
>with conversion factors, why not just call 1 stat point = 1 campaign point, 
>and charge more for stats? Different values means more confusion. 
 
There are several reason for dividing the points into separate pools. In 
Fuzion, you have Character Points (also called Stat Points), and Option Points 
(used to buy skills, talents, perks, and perhaps equipment, depending on the 
campaign). There are also Power Points for settings which use super powers or 
magic. 
 
Providing separate sets of points helps new players build more balanced 
characters. You can trade points between the areas as much as you like, but 
you have to have the GM's approval (which means the GM knows what you're 
doing). 
 
Stat Points make it very easy to set campaign standards for stats, especially 
since all primary stats are on the same scale. Want realistic humans that are 
reasonably heroic? You decide that you want them to have an average primary 
stat of 4.8 (for some reason; maybe you don't like integers). Just multiply 
that by the number of primary stats (10 in the Total Fuzion used in Champions: 
The New Millennium) and you have your starting Stat Points: 48. When you're 
building a character, it's easy to see when you've reached your limit... just 
add up all your primary stats. 
 
Separating power and skill points helps keep a good balance between them, 
though of course some characters in superhero genres trade back and forth. 
But, again, making these individual point pools gives the GM finer control 
over how skilled (or powerful) the characters are in a campaign. 
 
It's important to note that these are design features intended to help new 
players, and that the experts on this list probably wouldn't need the added 
help of some of these features. But we are trying to reach a larger audience, 
and to pick up new players, not just sell to our existing audience. Fuzion has 
been succeeding in that goal for us. 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games  
 
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Reply-To: <woodrow.w.smith@usa.net> 
From: "Woodie" <woodrow.w.smith@usa.net> 
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Vehicles and Acceleration 
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:01:21 -0700 
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I tried to send this to the list earlier, from web-based email, but it either didn't get 
sent, got lost in the email, or I missed it posting and no one liked it enough to respond. 
 
Note, if it is the last, just ignore me. I can take a hint.:) 
 
I have recently discovered an error in the vehicles in Champions. Sorry I didn't notice 
this in time for the USV, Bob. 
 
Gravity accelerates at 5" per segment, which is 0-60 in 2.7 seconds. Thus, a vehicle with 
a SPD of 3 and Running of 20" can reach 60 MPH (97 KPH) in only 3 seconds. 
 
According to the BBB, a semi-truck can do 0-60 in 5.7 seconds, a Cadillac Fleetwood can do 
0-60 in under 2.3 seconds, and a Porsche 928S can reach 60 MPH in 1.7 seconds. 
 
Sorry, but there's something here that doesn't add up. 
 
Filksinger 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 08:13:42 +0200 
From: Rog <uraeus@bunt.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: ABCJr Hero 
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Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
<my original post snipped> 
 
>  
>    This would be a wonderful net project (assuming the producers don't have 
> a problem with it, and they probably won't).  I don't know of anything 
> that's ever been done with it game-wise. 
>    I think the program is on one of the Turner stations (TBS or TNT) on the 
> weekends.  Even if it's been taken off, there are probably plenty of 
> websites giving various information (there may even be a Briscoe County 
> webring). 
>    Good luck to ya, and I look forward to seeing the results! 
> --- 
 
 
Well, I'm curently living in Germany with no access to TNT, and only 
just recently found someone to tape the shows for me and haven't 
recieved any yet.  But I remember looking on the Net before and 
finding one or two decent Brisco sites, and I have an old issue of 
Shadis stashed away somewhere that featured Brisco stuff. 
 
<Argh!  It still makes me mad that I had all but one or two episodes 
on tape, and that box had to be stolen from my moving shipment!> 
 
Anyway, I'm kinda busy at the moment, but I'm gonna see what I can 
come up with in the hopefully not too distant future. 
 
-Roger 
 
 
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From: "dominic" <dominic@kuroko.u-net.com> 
To: <champ-l@omg.org> 
Subject: subscribe champ-l dominic@kuroko.u-net.com  
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 07:40:52 +0100 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 01:47:51 -0700 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Organization: Satan's Children 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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David Stallard wrote: 
 
> Not to be a Fuzion advocate (I'm still wavering in the middle), but the 
> power list it uses has things like "Energy Blast", "Armor Piercing Energy 
> Blast", and "Autofire Energy Blast."  So basically it has the same options 
> (the common ones, anyway) as Hero, but they separate them into distinct 
> powers instead of variations of one power.  Also, in the first supplement 
> they introduced the idea of Adders and Limiters which are the same thing as 
> Advantages and Limitations to HSR folks (for instance, Half END is an 
> Adder).  It seems that Adders and Limiters bring back the complexity that 
> they were trying to get away from by making distinct powers as I listed 
> above, but that discussion isn't for this mailing list. 
 
   Actually, that brings up one of the minor arguements against Fuzion; 
the 'adders/limiters' tend to be absolute costs rather than proportional 
modifiers.  I.E. a 6d6 EB in Fuzion with Armour Piercing  will cost anm 
additional 2(?)points or 'DCs' which is an add'l 1/3 cost.  A 12D6 EB 
with AP will cost an add'l 2 points/'DCs' which is only an add'l 1/6 
cost.  So more powerful attacks get a kind of price break on 
advantages.  With H4 the cost of advantages is proportionate to the 
damage of the power being advantaged; much more equitable. 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 02:03:40 -0700 
From: Captain Spith <cptspith@teleport.com> 
Reply-To: cptspith@teleport.com 
Organization: Satan's Children 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
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Dave Mattingly wrote: 
>  
> I wrote: 
> > >The real answer is that nobody likes change. 
> > 
> Trevor Barrie wrote: 
> >You don't think this is more than a little insulting? Have you perhaps 
> >considered that some people think Hero is just a better system? (Ie, if 
> >they had never plaed either system and had to choose, they'd choose 
> Hero.) 
>  
> I also think it's a better system, but I do believe that the root cause 
> of not even giving Fuzion a chance (I've played in both systems) is that 
> in most minds, Change = Bad. 
 
   I think you're selling people short.  And you're still being 
insulting.  I was excitied about a Fuzion Demonstration Game at LA Con 
III (WorldCon something) several months before it was available online.  
There are definitely areas of the Hero System I think/thought can be 
improved.  The demonstration did not impress me.  I downloaded the 
Fuzion Rules from HeroGames' webpage scant days after they were 
available.  I was still unimpressed.  I don't claim to embody 
objectivity, but as far as I could tell, they were no clearer that Hero 
to figure out.  Still, I bought C:TNM, and got little to no improvement 
of my opinion of the system. 
   But as far as change goes, I have grown quite fond of White Wolf's 
'World(s) of Darkness' system, in a very short time.  Though it doesn't 
easily lend itself to superheroics, I like the way the system works.  I 
have given Fuzion a chance, as I imagine many have, and I don't think 
it's any better than what I have in Hero. 
   The other point to be made here is that IF, in fact, Fuzion is AS 
good as Hero, but not significantly BETTER. then there is no incentive 
for change either.  Why learn a new system with no gain?  Generally, 
change is made for improvement, not just for change's sake. 
 
--  
   -Capt. Spith 
   Savior of Humanity 
   Secular Messiah 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 07:34:01 -0400 (EDT) 
From: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net> 
Reply-To: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net> 
To: Woodie <woodrow.w.smith@usa.net> 
cc: Hero List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Vehicles and Acceleration 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Vehicles only move on each ***phase*** not each segment as your example 
was dictating.   
 
Acceleration should be divided by the number of seconds per phase and then 
by the number of seconds per phase again to find a per second 
acceleration. 
 
So, cars at speed 3 have 1/16th the acceleration rating versus gravity 
which gets to affect you at speed 12. (1  acceleration per 4 seconds 
versus 1 move per 4 seconds for (1/4)*(1/4)=1/16)  A speed 12 car with 5" 
movement would accelerate as fast as gravity does but because of the way 
acceleration AND movement are based on phases a speed 6 car would need 20" 
of movement to keep up with the acceleration of gravity. 
 
Vehicles can only accelerate by the number of inches in non-combat 
movement per phase.  This means that your example of 20" running at speed 
3 accelerates at a rate of 20"/16 or 1.25" per second. 
 
1 mile per hour = .244" per second (all " references are in 
relationship to hexes)  [5270/6' per hex/60 minutes per hour/60 seconds 
per minute=.24398".   I normally just round it off to a 1/4 of a second 
in most cases, but for this example give it .244"] 
 
So the car accelerates linearly at 5.12 miles per hour per second.  This 
gives you a 0-60 speed on this car of 11.71 seconds. 
 
The Porch 928S has an acceleration of 24" at speed 4(12/4=1 per 3 seconds)  
which means you divide the number of 24/(3*3)=2.67 or almost 11 miles per 
second.(10.94) 60/10.94=5.48  So the Porche can accelerate from 0-60 mph 
in 5.48 seconds.  Pretty reasonable. 
 
Hope this clarifies things, 
 
David Majors 
 
On Mon, 18 May 1998, Woodie wrote: 
 
> I tried to send this to the list earlier, from web-based email, but it either didn't get 
> sent, got lost in the email, or I missed it posting and no one liked it enough to respond. 
>  
> Note, if it is the last, just ignore me. I can take a hint.:) 
>  
> I have recently discovered an error in the vehicles in Champions. Sorry I didn't notice 
> this in time for the USV, Bob. 
>  
> Gravity accelerates at 5" per segment, which is 0-60 in 2.7 seconds. Thus, a vehicle with 
> a SPD of 3 and Running of 20" can reach 60 MPH (97 KPH) in only 3 seconds. 
>  
> According to the BBB, a semi-truck can do 0-60 in 5.7 seconds, a Cadillac Fleetwood can do 
> 0-60 in under 2.3 seconds, and a Porsche 928S can reach 60 MPH in 1.7 seconds. 
>  
> Sorry, but there's something here that doesn't add up. 
>  
> Filksinger 
>  
>  
 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 07:39:13 -0400 
From: Chris Paladino <Dino@En.com> 
Organization: EN 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Importance of a varied Hero Team (Was Why Stick w/ HSR?) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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> To which I must ask, why is this person trying to fight supers on the 
> super's ground when she is a hell of a lot more intelligent and 
educated 
> than that?  Player stupidity is no evidence of a failing in a game 
system. 
> 
 
>i mean you could argue the same thing about supers- like who doesn't 
jean 
>grey have the guts to box with juggernaught? becasu it's NOT HER 
>DEPARTMENT!! 
 
 
I dunno, our adventures are a little more combat oriented, yet we still 
have two bricks, A normal human w/ uzis, an alien (from the movie w/ the 
same name), and a martial artist.  This matchup isn't by-the-book 
perfect for tactics, but this team works really well together for some 
reason!  Each member must have some sort of specialty that the others 
don't...  Makes the game more fun because we can spread the spotlight 
around rather than one guy being a combat-beast, and someone else being 
smart. 
 
 
 
-- 
Chris Paladino 
 
 
Dino@En.com 
CPaladino@Jcvaxa.jcu.edu 
http://www.en.com/users/dino/index.html 
 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 07:46:48 -0400 
From: Chris Paladino <Dino@En.com> 
Organization: EN 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Hero Games wrote: 
 
> Providing separate sets of points helps new players build more balanced 
> characters. You can trade points between the areas as much as you like, but 
> you have to have the GM's approval (which means the GM knows what you're 
> doing). 
> 
> But, again, making these individual point pools gives the GM finer control 
> over how skilled (or powerful) the characters are in a campaign. 
 
    I dunno, I think it all comes down to the GM needs to help create the 
characters...  I don't care HOW good of  a player you are, or how long you've been 
playing, if the GM is there helping, they can take notes of possible enemies, 
possible tactics used against/for, and work any DNPC/Hunted types into the 
adventure.  The GM will also pressure the player about a origin/background rather 
than players showing up with a bunch of sheets of paper w/ number on them and no 
personality...  *Shrug*  It comes down to GM observation in my opinion. 
 
-- 
Chris Paladino 
 
 
Dino@En.com 
CPaladino@Jcvaxa.jcu.edu 
http://www.en.com/users/dino/index.html 
 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 07:58:54 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Mon, 18 May 1998, Goode, Jason wrote: 
 
> > Because the stats given are a joke and result in Hero characters that are 
> > laughable.  I don't have my book handy, but I think we get things like 
> > Priss with a CON of 30, Linna with a 30 DEX, Leon with a 20-something STR 
> > (etc).  All the major characters have stats of 20+ in almost everything. 
>  
> Like I said, not a fan.  Don't know the genre.  I do know that those girl, 
> like all anime can take way more punishment than any human IRL.  May those 
> stats are accurate portrayals of what happens on the screen. 
 
Thosae stats are for characters out of armor...  Look, the characters are 
tough, yes, but they are tough in their powered armor.  Out of their 
armorthey are pretty much normal humans andget hurt by the same things 
that hurt other normal humans.  And those stats certainly don't make sense 
when stacked against similar power armor using characters from C:TNM and 
Hero products.  The statement 'these are main characters from the show, 
that's why they have inflated stats' is a cop-out. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 09:02:44 -0400 
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On Tuesday, May 19, 1998 1:38 AM, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin 
[SMTP:griffin@txdirect.net] wrote: 
>  
> What determines how well one 200 point character balances against another 
> 200 point character (or another character of any point total, for that 
> matter) isn't what his background is, but what the campaign gives him an 
> opportunity to do *with* that background.  If you try to use a campaign 
> background that it "pure" fantasy (or space opera, or western) and just 
> drop characters in from other genres, the "foreign" characters may not 
have 
> enough to do.  If you want to incorporate characters from different 
genres, 
> the campaign background has to reflect that.   
>  
 
 
I agree with you 100% that whether or not the characters are balanced 
depends on the campaign.  These two guys would probably work out okay in a 
Flash Gordon or Thundarr the Barbarian campaign.  You and I see eye to eye 
on this.  The premise I was refuting was that you can take a 200 point 
character from one genre, a 200 point character from any other genre, stick 
the two in any third genre and still have everything 'balanced' and 
'competitive'. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 09:22:54 -0400 
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On Monday, May 18, 1998 3:06 PM, dwtoomey@juno.com [SMTP:dwtoomey@juno.com] 
wrote: 
 
<"Please shut up" snipped> 
  
>  
> David W Toomey 
> dwtoomey@juno.com 
 
It's not about changing anyone's mind, at least not for me.  I have 
repeatedly said that you should play whatever system you like as long as you 
are having fun.  This whole thing started when Dave Ballard (I think) asked 
why he should not go to Fuzion.  This was a mistake.  I told him that it was 
a mistake.  The best way to figure out it you like a game or not is to play 
it.  Of course, instead of expounding upon the many strengths of Hero, a few 
folks decided to expound upon the weaknesses of Fuzion.  I'm one of those 
folks who like both systems.  I've played Hero for years and Fuzion for a 
few months and I like them both, each for different reasons.  I'll admit 
Fuzion has some problems.  If you like, I'll tell you every one I can think 
of and we'll be here for days. However, most of the things that were brought 
up as problems, aren't.  I've played the system for a few months and I took 
the time to try to understand the design philosophy.  I harassed others 
(including Hero Games) relentlessly for info and clarification, just like I 
did when I started playing Hero.  Once I bothered to sit down and understand 
the system, most, if not all, of the problems that have been cited so far 
disappeared.  Fuzion has problems, but no the ones cited here. 
 
Now I'll shut up. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: GAZZA's Analysis of the Champions List 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 09:24:23 -0400 
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On Tuesday, May 19, 1998 1:14 AM, Robert A. West [SMTP:robtwest@erols.com] 
wrote: 
> And, of course, since these two debates cannot be engaged in without  
> engaging in both, they are clearly Linked(-1/2)! 
>  
> ;-) ;-) ;-) 
> --  
> <-------------------------------------------------------> 
> Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
> Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
> http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
>  
 
Good one!  That actually made me laugh out loud.  Thanks for the morning 
chuckle. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 10:35:43 -0400 
To: hero-l@omg.org 
From: Will Austin <wga@po.CWRU.Edu> 
Subject: Late One Saturday Night (was Re: Forgotten Heroes) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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<x-rich>At 08:44 AM 5/16/98 -0500, you wrote: 
 
>>Now, if they would just bring back Electro-Woman and Dynagirl.... 
 
> 
 
>Mmmm, yes.  Not being cartoons, it's harder to bring them back, of course. 
 
>I haven't seen Judy Strangis in a long time, but Deidre Hall still looks 
 
>pretty good. 
 
 
	I came across Electro-Woman and Dyna-Girl being rerun on TV Land, I believe--sure was cool. . .very cheesy, but cool! 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
============================================================================ 
 
 
Nomad 
 
wga@po.cwru.edu 
 
myrtth@geocities.com 
 
 
"We are such stuff as dreams are made on, and our little life is rounded 
with a sleep." 
 
						--Shakespeare, <bold><italic>The Tempest</italic></bold>, 
IV.i.148	 
 
============================================================================ 
 
</x-rich> 
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 08:22:16 -0700 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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> I wrote: 
> >in most minds, Change = Bad. 
>  
Capt Spith replied: 
>I think you're selling people short.  And you're still being 
>insulting. 
 
My comments were more of a general observation on human nature than a 
specific insult to anyone. Heck, to take it even further, one could 
imply that those who like Fuzion better are somehow smarter than 
Herophiles since they've overcome their natural disinclination to 
change. This is not what I meant, otherwise I'd be dissing myself as 
well. 
 
I think that both systems have good and bad points, and whichever you're 
happy with, go for it. 
 
>Why learn a new system with no gain? 
 
Exactly. Those who like Fuzion better see some gain. Either they had too 
much trouble recruiting newbies for Hero games, or teaching Hero to 
newbies, or setting up a world. Or maybe they just liked the new 
settings or "attitude." If you don't see any gain, then stay with Hero. 
I am. 
 
I'm not writing Fuzion off, or anything. I'll continue to watch it 
mature. And when it gets to the point where I prefer it, or until they 
get a world license that I really really like, I'll switch. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.haymaker.org 
 
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From: llwatts@juno.com (Leah L Watts) 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 11:26:02 EDT 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>I had not bought HA vol 2, since the scenarios appeared to be more of a  
>heroic level, than a superheroic level.  I eventually bought it a) since 
>I was desperate for a Hero fix and San Angelo had been delayed b) to  
>support Gold Rush Games, as the only company putting out paper 
supplements 
>for Champions.  The scenarios all seemed OK, but again not really 
oriented 
>to superheroes necessarily.   
 
Most of the adventures in HA 2 are geared toward street-level play, 
though I couldn't find suggested point levels for "Dark Knights".  
However, from what I've seen, there aren't that many Dark Champions games 
at superhero point levels.  (Maybe it's time for a list survey -- do your 
Dark Champs games run at heroic point levels or superheroic?) 
 
If you play straight 4-color superheroes, there won't be much in HA 2 for 
you -- "Games People Play" might convert over, but I'm not sure how well 
the other scenarios would convert.  OTOH, "Have A Havok New Year" and 
"The Thing In Radley Manor" have me tempted to start a Dark Champs 
campaign. 
 
Leah 
 
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From: Pat10355 <Pat10355@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 11:32:26 EDT 
To: hero-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Incredible Shrinking Hero 
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I should buy some more levels of shrinking to be the Ultimate Shrinker, but 
I'm working with a budget of 250 pts. Your points about the gap between his 
smallest size and the microverse are good, it's just that I can't afford to 
close the gap any further. :) 
 
I really like the idea of FTL travel through phone lines ... I too have seen 
the Atom do this and wondered how to simulate it in Champions, but Teleport 
seemed too clunky. 
 
Thanks for the suggestions, 
Patrick Sweeney 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 08:34:04 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Player Skills Census (was GAZZA's Analysis of the Champions List) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Todd Hanson wrote: 
>  
> GAZZA said: 
> > 
> >     subjected to. I really hope I never have a lawyer as a player - I 
> >     suspect I'd become a landmark case for the first GM ever sued by 
> >     one of his players... 
>  
> Well, I didn't have a lawyer, but at one time in my game I had: 
>  
> a player in his final year at med school 
> an airplane mechanic in the air force (who had served in Desert Storm) 
> an automobile mechanic 
> a computer programmer 
> a gun collecter 
 
Lessee....my campaign includes or has recently included practicing  
professionals as follows: 
 
A Physicist at the Institute for Advanced Study, 
A PhD Astrophysicist turned Parapsychological Researcher, 
A Mathematician and occasional computer programmer, 
An ordnance designer, 
A Cryptanalyst, 
A Lawyer, 
A former evolutionary biologist whose wife, an RN, is often present, 
A Project Manager in computer consulting, 
Two computer programmers, 
A management consultant. 
 
Several of the above are also serious hard wargamers, which makes them  
excellent tacticians; almost all are at least competent computer  
programmers.  Their other hobbies or secondary vocations include  
practical skills such as diving, construction, mechanics, etc. 
 
The other half of my players are undergraduates and graduate students in  
a variety of fields. 
 
Fortunately, I have a large number of hobbies and secondary skills, so I  
can keep up and am rarely corrected. In fact, I enjoy dropping real-world  
problems, and letting the people with the real skills argue them, of  
course provided that some PC present has the skill in-game. 
 
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 11:55:06 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Call to cease and desist 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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I'm the one who started the "Why stick with HSR?" thread, and now I'm 
asking that it be dropped.  I should have known what I was starting...not 
one soul has answered the question I posed, but instead we've gotten a lot 
of tiresome argument that we've all heard before and which isn't ever going 
to find closure.  The problem is that H4 gamers rush into a defensive mode, 
while Fuzion gamers are too quick to go on the offensive, so it only fuels 
itself further. 
 
My original question was worded poorly, and I'm tempted to reword it and 
ask again, but I'm not going to do it.  A lot of the points that have been 
brought up are purely academic, and I see no value in going into them 
unless we declare this list to be "Theory of Role-Playing System Design".  
I don't see how any rewording would have a different effect. 
 
My overall observation:  For most bad things that an HSR player can say 
about Fuzion, a Fuzion player can justify it to me by pointing out design 
intent.  For most bad things that a Fuzion player can say about HSR, an HSR 
player will turn the discussion around and start pointing out bad things 
about Fuzion. 
 
The overall result of all this on a player caught between two systems:  My 
wall of resistance to Fuzion continues to crumble...I still consider myself 
to be on the HSR side of the fence, but am becoming more anxious to test 
the water on the other side. 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 09:05:24 -0700 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Ultimate Shrinker 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:38 PM 5/18/1998, qts wrote: 
>How about defences based upon the level of shrinking attained? 
> 
>EG you have 16 points each of Power Defense and Mental Defense, but get 
>only 4 pts each per level of Shrinking (ie 4 at 1 level, 8 at 2 levels, 
>12 at 3 levels, and 16 at 4 levels of shrinking). This would represent 
>the increased difficulty of tagging a smaller target. 
 
   No, that increased difficulty is already represented with the DCV bonus 
one gets from Shrinking.  However, I imagine one might be able to justify 
some DCV levels, Li-- uh, make that *Based On* Shrinking, not vs Powers 
targeted through Mind Scan. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
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Date: 19 May 1998 12:16:53 -0400 
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Goode, Jason writes: 
 
> Don't know, Michael.  You'll have to ask Rat.  He's the one who wanted the 
> cross-genre characters to be 'competative'. 
 
Take a good, long look at Dream Park, both the books and the game based on 
the books. 
 
Now look at Mike Surbrook's comments about what the GM has to do to make 
the game interesting for all the characters involved. 
 
Yes, you *can* put a 1950's G-Man and a 1990's superhero into a third 
universe and have them be competative -- that is, one character will not 
always outsihine the other.  No changes to the characters are necessary. 
All it takes is a competant GM. 
 
According to the Rule of X, the super and the G-Man cannot be competative. 
Right there I have a good reason to throw RoX out. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Climbing (was Re: Champions artists) 
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Date: 19 May 1998 12:25:20 -0400 
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Remnant  writes: 
 
>> No, my problem is with "requires a skill roll" being placed on a power 
>> that duplicates the effects of the skill being rolled. 
 
> But as I said, Powers allow people to do more than what is humanly 
> possible, Skills don't.  A Power may allow a character to do everything 
> that a skill does and more, but not duplicate a skill. 
 
But *THIS* instance of the power *DOES* duplicate the skill. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Call to cease and desist 
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David Stallard writes: 
 
> My overall observation: For most bad things that an HSR player can say 
> about Fuzion, a Fuzion player can justify it to me by pointing out design 
> intent.  For most bad things that a Fuzion player can say about HSR, an 
> HSR player will turn the discussion around and start pointing out bad 
> things about Fuzion. 
 
Excuse me, but you asked, why use Hero instead of Fuzion.  I answered that 
by pointing out perceived weakness in Fuzion and the comparative strength 
of Hero.  What else do you expect? 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:45:00 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Call to cease and desist 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 19 May 1998, David Stallard wrote: 
 
> I'm the one who started the "Why stick with HSR?" thread, and now I'm 
> asking that it be dropped.  I should have known what I was starting...not 
> one soul has answered the question I posed, 
 
Err... what was the question, then? Certainly, a number of people have 
answered the question in the header. 
 
> My overall observation:  For most bad things that an HSR player can say 
> about Fuzion, a Fuzion player can justify it to me by pointing out design 
> intent.  For most bad things that a Fuzion player can say about HSR, an HSR 
> player will turn the discussion around and start pointing out bad things 
> about Fuzion. 
 
Don't follow that at all. 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:47:42 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 18 May 1998, Robert A. West wrote: 
 
> > If you aim for the head, an 1.5d6k is enough to kill (1d6+1 with a 
> > slightly better than average roll). 
>  
> A .38 is typically pointed as a 1D6+1K: hitting a 10 BODY normal in the  
> head with a 1D6+1K cannot possibly kill the person outright, and may not  
> even place the person on the dying schedule. 
 
If you're using all of the optional rules, a 5 BODY hit to the head or 
vitals is sufficient to kill a 10 BODY person immediately.  
 
> Of course, whether this is a bug or a feature depends on genre, but the  
> idea of Hero is, allegedly, to support all genres, and that  
> should include deadly ones. 
 
For deadly ones, you use the Impairment and Disabling rules. 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 09:49:09 -0700 
To: "Goode, Jason" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> 
Subject: RE: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>They are from different genres and therefore have different skills and 
>abilities available to them.  I think I can accurately claim that a 200 
>point Conan wannabe is not balanced/competative/whatever with the 200 point 
>Golden Age Sandman. 
 
I dont really know much about the golden age sandman but I think Conan could 
compete with most street level superheroes today... but He would cost more 
than 200 points Id think 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:54:29 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Superman (1938) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 18 May 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> 43	Superhuman Speed Multipower: 43 Point Pool 
> 8	u - Running: +20" (26" Total), END 5 
> 9	u - Leaping: Superleap: +43" (50" Total), END 10 
 
I'm leary of allowing multiple movement Powers in a Multipower, personally. 
You can't use more than one simultaneously in any case, so why should you 
get a point break for putting them in an MP? (On the flip side, buying 
multiple movement Powers raw may be over-costed.) 
 
> 100+	Disadvantages 
> 10	Not above using strong-arm tactics (C, M) 
 
How is _not_ being above such tactics a Disadvantage? 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:56:15 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Tue, 19 May 1998, Christopher Taylor wrote: 
 
> >They are from different genres and therefore have different skills and 
> >abilities available to them.  I think I can accurately claim that a 200 
> >point Conan wannabe is not balanced/competative/whatever with the 200 point 
> >Golden Age Sandman. 
>  
> I dont really know much about the golden age sandman but I think Conan could 
> compete with most street level superheroes today... but He would cost more 
> than 200 points Id think 
 
I wrote up a farily complete Conan sometime ago that was 350+ points.  He 
was the Superman of his era. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:56:30 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 18 May 1998, Goode, Jason wrote: 
 
> I think this was the whole point of that exchange.  Equal point values do 
> not equal characters make.  Regardless of what Rat says, there is no way 
> that a 200 point warrior from fantasy hero, a 200 point private eye from 
> pulp hero, a 200 point energy projector from champions and a 200 point 
> starship pilot from star hero are balanced or "competative". 
 
Presumably because some of them have to pay points for their normal-level 
equipment, and some don't. Other than that, yes, they should be balanced. 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:58:38 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 18 May 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    What it really seems to boil down to, at least in my view, is whether 
> you want a solid game system or a solid universe. 
 
Seems like an odd way of looking at it to me - IMO, choice of system and 
choice of setting are almost completely seperate issues. (ie, if you 
like Hero mechanics and the C:tNM setting, use Hero mechanics with the 
C:tNM setting.) 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 14:11:21 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re:  Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 18 May 1998, Hero Games wrote: 
 
> You misunderstand my point. It doesn't matter what it costs to build your 
> character; what matters is how effective that character is in combat, if 
> you're looking to achieve a reasonable balance in game play. 
 
No, what matters is how effective your character is _overall_. If a given 
character is less effective than the rest in combat but more effective 
in other ways, the campaign is balanced. 
 
> You could build a combat monster on 150 points that could reasonably keep up 
> with a group of 250 point superheroes in combat. 
 
But that character still couldn't coexist in the same campaign with those 
superheroes (assuming balance between characters is important to you). The 
average 250-pt character is going to be his (or her) equal in combat and 
superior in every other aspect, a 250-pt combat monster could kick his ass 
without being any less multi-dimensional, etc. 
 
> Overall cost is the method given in the Hero System for evaluating the 
> effectiveness of characters; at best, it's a pretty crude method. 
 
Overall cost is the method given for evaluating overall effectiveness, yes. 
There are other measures given for evaluating combat effectiveness (DCs, for 
example). 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 10:18:00 -0700 
To: cptspith@teleport.com, champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
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At 01:47 AM 5/19/98 -0700, Captain Spith wrote: 
>David Stallard wrote: 
> 
>> Not to be a Fuzion advocate (I'm still wavering in the middle), but the 
>> power list it uses has things like "Energy Blast", "Armor Piercing Energy 
>> Blast", and "Autofire Energy Blast."  So basically it has the same options 
>> (the common ones, anyway) as Hero, but they separate them into distinct 
>> powers instead of variations of one power.  Also, in the first supplement 
>> they introduced the idea of Adders and Limiters which are the same thing as 
>> Advantages and Limitations to HSR folks (for instance, Half END is an 
>> Adder).  It seems that Adders and Limiters bring back the complexity that 
>> they were trying to get away from by making distinct powers as I listed 
>> above, but that discussion isn't for this mailing list. 
> 
>   Actually, that brings up one of the minor arguements against Fuzion; 
>the 'adders/limiters' tend to be absolute costs rather than proportional 
>modifiers.  I.E. a 6d6 EB in Fuzion with Armour Piercing  will cost anm 
>additional 2(?)points or 'DCs' which is an add'l 1/3 cost.  A 12D6 EB 
>with AP will cost an add'l 2 points/'DCs' which is only an add'l 1/6 
>cost.  So more powerful attacks get a kind of price break on 
>advantages.  With H4 the cost of advantages is proportionate to the 
>damage of the power being advantaged; much more equitable. 
> 
Thank you. Yes. This is one of my biggest gripes. Apparently, the authors 
of Fuzion decided that complicated, graduate-degree level math like 
'multiplication' and 'division' were beyond todays gamers, so they took a 
gamble with college-level concepts like 'addition' and 'subtraction'. That 
doing this grossly imbalances point costs on both the lower power level 
("My mage wants a 3d6 explosion." "OK, 3 dice, take away 2, it does 1 dice, 
so, it doesn't actually explode.") and the high level ("I paid 12 points 
for a blast that can kill anything" "I spent 12 points to get a 10-point 
blast that can kill *almost* anything, but in a large area") is irrelevant 
-- the game is 'simpler', and that's what counts. 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 14:18:23 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 18 May 1998, Goode, Jason wrote: 
 
> When I decided to start a second group, I handed one of the players my 
> Hero4/Champions book.  He flipped through it and said, "You're kidding, 
> right?" 
 
Could you elaborate? What exactly was he put off by? 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 10:19:44 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
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At 09:43 PM 5/18/98 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
>John Desmarais wrote: 
>>  
>> > pointing out the relative difficulty in killing people. 
>>  
>> 3d6 to the head?  A base normal has 10 body and 0 rPD.  3d6 killing 
>> averages 11.5 body.  Hit someone anywhere but the feet or hands and he 
>> is dying, and IIRC will bleed to death in less than two minutes. 
> 
>Without attention from someone with Paramedic skill or a BODY Aid.  I  
>have never seen a group of more than two PCs who lacked both. 
> 
Actually, in both the campaign I run and the campaign I play in, I don't 
think ANY character has EITHER. We play very 4-color, so killing attacks 
and lethal body damage are very rare. 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 14:32:01 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: hero-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: The Incredible Shrinking Hero 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 18 May 1998, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote: 
 
> As a result of these two things, the player is sometimes compelled to buy 
> two or three separate Powers simply in order to model the upper and lower 
> extremes of a *single* ability. 
 
Yes, of course. This is an inevitable result of Hero's "classify powers 
by game effect rather than special effect" system; some special effects 
are going to be able to do things which are covered by different effects 
in Hero. 
 
> Rather than spend hundreds of points on Shrinking, the player made a choice 
> to model the extremes of the size change power using XDM and Desolid.  That 
> choice was valid under the Hero system, but I think it's unfortunate that 
> Hero makes this sort of thing necessary. 
 
I suppose I can see how it could be annoying, but it's much better than 
the alternative IMODO. 
 
> If nothing else, I would suggest buying a few more levels of Shrinking in 
> order to partially close the gap between 4.5 inches and microscopic size. 
 
Probably a good idea. 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 10:38:33 -0700 
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Vehicles and Acceleration 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:01 PM 5/18/1998 -0700, Woodie wrote: 
>I tried to send this to the list earlier, from web-based email, but it 
either didn't get 
>sent, got lost in the email, or I missed it posting and no one liked it 
enough to respond. 
> 
>Note, if it is the last, just ignore me. I can take a hint.:) 
 
   Well, I, at least, didn't see it. 
 
>I have recently discovered an error in the vehicles in Champions. Sorry I 
didn't notice 
>this in time for the USV, Bob. 
 
   Not a big problem. 
 
>Gravity accelerates at 5" per segment, which is 0-60 in 2.7 seconds. Thus, 
a vehicle with 
>a SPD of 3 and Running of 20" can reach 60 MPH (97 KPH) in only 3 seconds. 
> 
>According to the BBB, a semi-truck can do 0-60 in 5.7 seconds, a Cadillac 
Fleetwood can do 
>0-60 in under 2.3 seconds, and a Porsche 928S can reach 60 MPH in 1.7 
seconds. 
> 
>Sorry, but there's something here that doesn't add up. 
 
   Well, for one thing, Acceleration isn't relative to SPD; per the BBB 
(page 142), it's relative to the amount of distance traveled.  Thus the 
indeterminate vehicle you cite (SPD 3, Ground Move 20") would achieve 60 
MPH (assuming your velocity conversion is accurate, and I have no reason to 
believe otherwise) after 3" of movement -- in other words, within its 
4-second Phase. 
   I do have something of a fix for this in TUSV.  The amount of 
acceleration that a vehicle can achieve is reduced by 1" for every level of 
Size; after this reaches 1" of acceleration per 1" moved, the chart simply 
adds 1" that must be moved before accelerating 1".  Thus, the semi-truck, 
at +1" per 4", would have to move 60" (~200') to reach 60mph; the 
Fleetwood, at +1" per 2", would have to move 30" (~100') to get there; and 
the Porsche, at +2" per 1", would only have to move 8" (~25' -- all of this 
assuming 15"=60 mph; perhaps someone else can make more accurate 
calculations than this). 
   Of course, these vehicles decelerate at the same rate. 
   Just for those vehicles that are more powerful than this (either more 
powerful engine or more powerful brakes), my current manuscript also 
introduces Acceleration and Deceleration as Talents.  For every 2 points 
spent in one of these, the vehicle moves up one step of Acceleration or 
Deceleration.  So to give the Fleetwood above the engine power of the 
Porsche, it would spend 4 points in Acceleration (though its brakes would 
still work at -1" per 2" travelled). 
   Of course, all this is rather sketchy, and may need additional work. 
But I think it's a step in the right direction. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:43:22 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 18 May 1998, Robert A. West wrote: 
 
> > 3d6 to the head?  A base normal has 10 body and 0 rPD.  3d6 killing 
> > averages 11.5 body.  Hit someone anywhere but the feet or hands and he 
> > is dying, and IIRC will bleed to death in less than two minutes. 
>  
> Without attention from someone with Paramedic skill or a BODY Aid.  I  
> have never seen a group of more than two PCs who lacked both. 
 
I have.  Quite often supers groups I have been in have had Paramedic, but 
no Aid powers of any kind. 
  
> > If you aim for the head, an 1.5d6k is enough to kill (1d6+1 with a 
> > slightly better than average roll). 
>  
> A .38 is typically pointed as a 1D6+1K: hitting a 10 BODY normal in the  
> head with a 1D6+1K cannot possibly kill the person outright, and may not  
> even place the person on the dying schedule.  In any case, the good guys  
> will have a full minute at absolute minimum to win the battle and save  
> the victim.  Since most Champions battles take only one or two turns to  
> resolve, this is not generally a problem. 
>  
 
There are two ways for a 1d6+1K to kill a 10 BODY normal in one shot: 
 
1 - the GM said so. 
 
2 - use hit location.  A hit to the head does 2xBODY, so a die roll of 5,6 
or 7 will do 10, 12 or 14 BODY in a single shot, more than enough to but 
the victim down. Now, at 0 BODY the person is on the edge of death, at -2 
and -4 he can die pretty quickly.   
 
Pepole survive gunshot wounds on an amazing basis, even multiple gunshot 
wounds.  Now, you bump that up to 1 1/2d6 and your chance of an 'instant 
kill' goes up dramatically. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:52:21 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Climbing (was Re: Champions artists) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On 19 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> Remnant  writes: 
>  
> >> No, my problem is with "requires a skill roll" being placed on a power 
> >> that duplicates the effects of the skill being rolled. 
>  
> > But as I said, Powers allow people to do more than what is humanly 
> > possible, Skills don't.  A Power may allow a character to do everything 
> > that a skill does and more, but not duplicate a skill. 
>  
> But *THIS* instance of the power *DOES* duplicate the skill. 
 
Clinging in any form is going to be better than climbing - it's a 'super 
climbing', if you will.  its faster and it incurs fewer penalties, and 
thus it would be used for someone who could 'free climb' (that is, without 
ropes or equipment - unless of course the Focus limitation is purchased) 
in incredibly adverse conditions.  
 
Someone with Clinging, RSR could /without penalty/ (except for the 
penalty for Active Points): 
 
* Climb a sheer or slick surface like the side of a skyscraper (real life 
example: the 'Human Fly' stunt acrobats, although they'd also have OAF: 
Suction Cups and 'only on a smooth surface') 
 
* Climb overhangs of greater that 15 degrees (I /think/, though I'm not 
sure, that these are on the limits of human capability for normal rock 
climbing) - unless you took a further limitation, someone with Clinging, 
RSR could happily be suspended from a horizontal overhang and happily 
continuing to clib.  Someone with only climbing skill would be praying to 
God. 
 
* Climb a rain-drenched stone wall where there's about a millimeter of 
fingerhold (that's about a -9 or -10 penalty on Climbing skill, if the GM  
rules it's possible at all) 
 
* Climb the Cliffs of Insanity wothout a rope. (Inconceivable!) 
 
So, while it partially duplicates the skill, it also goes above and beyond 
it in a variety of ways. 
 
RSR is clearly a limitation on the power - sometimes you will fail your 
skill roll.  If you have Clinging without a limitation, you will never 
fall 'accidentally'.  Since it limits the power, there's no game 
mechanical reason to disallow it.  Since it provides more flavor for the 
character, there's no real non-mechanical reason to disallow it, either. 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 14:53:21 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: HSR <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 18 May 1998, Goode, Jason wrote: 
 
> They used a powers "list" in the main book, so that it would appeal to a 
> wider audience.  There are an *aweful* lot of poeple (i.e., marketshare) who 
> are initially scared off by the complexity Hero4 power building system's, or 
> who just don't "get it." 
 
So put the power-building system in an "advanced" chapter in the back, 
and include a list of powers built using that system up front as "basic" 
character creation. But if you're going to sell a super-hero RPG, you'd 
better make sure it's playable in the super-hero genre, and a system with 
just a power list just isn't. 
 
> Since Hero4 can still be used by experienced players (all you have to do is 
> divide the final cost by 5 to convert), they've got both bases covered until 
> they come out with the Powers book, which, they claim, will have even more 
> depth and options than Hero4's power building system. 
 
Would be nice to see. 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 15:03:25 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: HSR <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 18 May 1998, David Stallard wrote: 
 
> Not to be a Fuzion advocate (I'm still wavering in the middle), but the 
> power list it uses has things like "Energy Blast", "Armor Piercing Energy 
> Blast", and "Autofire Energy Blast." 
 
Well, that sounds better than classifying powers based on special effects, 
but I'm not sure it could provide the necessary flexibility all the same. 
 
> Also, in the first supplement they introduced the idea of Adders and 
> Limiters which are the same thing as Advantages and Limitations to HSR 
> folks (for instance, Half END is an Adder). 
 
Good God. They didn't actually call them "Adders" and "Limiters", did 
they? 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:08:36 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 19 May 1998, Lizard wrote: 
 
> Apparently, the authors 
> of Fuzion decided that complicated, graduate-degree level math like 
> 'multiplication' and 'division' were beyond todays gamers, so they took a 
> gamble with college-level concepts like 'addition' and 'subtraction'. 
 
<snip> 
 
> ("My mage wants a 3d6 explosion." "OK, 3 dice, take away 2, it does 1 dice, 
> so, it doesn't actually explode.")  
 
This example is, of course, grossly unfair to Fuzion.  Using my poor 
Usenet-rotted brain, I was able to come up with this: 
 
"My mage wants a 3d6 explosion." 
"OK, to get 3d6 of final effect you'll have to buy 5 dice, because you 
     lose two to give it the explosion." 
"All right." (scribbles happily) 
 
And I don't even /play/ Fuzion. 
 
First you insult the Fuzion authors for 'dumbing down the system', and 
then you assume the Fuzion /players/ are going to be unable to comprehend 
even that. 
 
Have you given any serious thought as to /why/ they might have done this, 
or did you just assume it was to make it easier?  Have you checked to see 
that it's actually unbalanced?  Have you asked the designers why they 
chose to do it this way? Maybe there are reasons... 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 14:13:05 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net (Unverified) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>Sorry you didn't like BGC. 
 
Why? Did you write it? 
 
>Both you and Rat talked about difficulties in converting between BGC and 
>C:NM.  I didn't understand the specific examples cited. 
 
I said nothing about converting between BGC and C:NM. I talked about 
converting MektonZ stats to BGC. 
 
>Complications are just Hero4 Disads with a different name. 
 
Yes, but the examples given were poor; they gave point values w/o explaining 
the specific frequencies and importances - it made comparative evaluation 
difficult, thus making new complications more, er, complicated. :-) 
 
>Anywho, why not just convert everything over to Mekton or Hero4? 
 
I would love to convert BGC to Mekton Zeta. BUT, the rules given by 
R.Taslorian for that are _abominably_ complicated. I'd be better off 
grabbing 'technical' data from BGC sources and building from scratch in 
Mekton Zeta. IOW, the Fuzion BGC isn't good for anything but the background. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!" 
-Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>> Whoo-pee. Since COM had no derived stat and no associated skills anyways,it 
>> was pretty much a talent anyway, wasn't it? Oh, and in HERO you can buy +1 
>> with three skills anyway... 
> 
>So, they make offical what everybody was using for a house rule, and you get 
>sarcastic with me?  That makes sense... 
 
I was sarcastic with you (oh no, sarcasm! eek! :-) because you seemed to be 
touting it as a 'great idea', when it was really no significant change at all. 
  
>> Which brings up a point, I don't like the two-tier nature of Stat and 
>> Campaign points. 1 stat point = 5 campaign points, right? Why fiddle 
 
>> and charge more for stats? Different values means more confusion. 
> 
>No more confusing than Hero.  Look, you are already using conversion 
>factors.  1 point = 1 point of STR, but 1/3 point of DEX, and only +1/10 
>Speed.  1 level of growth costs 5 points, but 1 level of shrinking costs 10 
>points.  This is only more confusing than Hero, because you are used to 
>Hero. 
 
Ah, but in HERO one CP = one CP, and everything costs CPs. 1 XP = 1 CP as 
well. The fact that 1 point of DEX costs 3 CP is another issue. In HERO, if 
I say something costs X CP, everybody understands. Everybody knows how much 
XP it takes to raise a stat. Etcetera. 
 
>Like they are always in proportion in Hero4  - 6" run and and 2" swim? 
>Let's see..that's a 3:1 ratio; let's check Fuzion..hmm 3:1 ration there too. 
>Amazing, hunh?  Guess what - you can buy them up or down in both systems! 
 
Not in BGC. You had to buy them up or down _together_. You couldn't have a 
slow runner and a fast swimmer, or vice versa. And saying HERO movement 
stats are in proportion is like saying that HERO STR and CON are in 
proportion b/c they both start at 10. 
 
>> HERO had the same ability, just not explicitly stated. I could add TECH to 
>> HERO and not unbalance things, ditto inherent Mental Defense and so on. 
>This 
>> is not a 'fix' on the part of Fuzion. 
> 
>So what's the problem with 'explicitly stating' it?  Clearing things up 
>instead of leaving them all murky is a bad thing? 
 
No, but it can hardly be touted as one of the 'great benefits' of Fuzion - 
because you can do exactly the same thing in HERO. I don't see Fuzion as an 
improvement on either HERO or Interlock. The 'only' reason I could think of 
to use Fuzion over either HERO or Interlock is if I was planning to play a 
lot of Superheroes vs. Giant Robots. Instant Fuzion is better, but I 
generally prefer more detail than that permits anyways. 
 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!" 
-Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 14:13:11 -0400 (EDT) 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re:  RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>>Which brings up a point, I don't like the two-tier nature of Stat and 
>>Campaign points. 1 stat point = 5 campaign points, right? Why fiddle around 
>>with conversion factors, why not just call 1 stat point = 1 campaign point, 
>>and charge more for stats? Different values means more confusion. 
 
>Providing separate sets of points helps new players build more balanced 
>characters. You can trade points between the areas as much as you like, but 
>you have to have the GM's approval (which means the GM knows what you're 
>doing). 
> 
>Stat Points make it very easy to set campaign standards for stats, especially 
>since all primary stats are on the same scale. 
 
I understand the logic, but I don't totally agree with it. As far as I can 
tell, Fuzion still encourages Stat ceilings for certain types of play - so 
'arbitrarily' limiting which of the character's points can go to stats is 
not IMHO a good thing. Stat ceilings are enough of a game balance tool 
without additionally limiting the number of Stat points to boot. 
 
>Separating power and skill points helps keep a good balance between them, 
>though of course some characters in superhero genres trade back and forth. 
>But, again, making these individual point pools gives the GM finer control 
>over how skilled (or powerful) the characters are in a campaign. 
 
It's good in that it will encourage characters to spend points on skills 
(i.e. lots of 'Options Points', but at a loss of flexibility. True, GM 
permission can resolve some of these issues, but I prefer a more 'obviously' 
open-ended system - especially where superheroic play is a factor. 
 
>It's important to note that these are design features intended to help new 
>players, and that the experts on this list probably wouldn't need the added 
>help of some of these features. But we are trying to reach a larger audience, 
>and to pick up new players, not just sell to our existing audience. Fuzion has 
>been succeeding in that goal for us. 
 
Just so long as you're around to release 5th Edition HERO :-). 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!" 
-Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Climbing (was Re: Champions artists) 
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Date: 19 May 1998 14:30:19 -0400 
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Sakura  writes: 
 
>> But *THIS* instance of the power *DOES* duplicate the skill. 
 
> Clinging in any form is going to be better than climbing - it's a 'super 
> climbing', if you will. 
 
True, unless you put limitations on it, which is the case in this 
instance. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
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Date: 19 May 1998 14:32:46 -0400 
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Michael Surbrook writes: 
 
> Pepole survive gunshot wounds on an amazing basis, even multiple gunshot 
> wounds. 
 
What kills them is the shock, not the trauma.  In the simplest fashion, as 
far as Hero is concerned, they "bleed to death".  Even that is just a 
special effect. 
 
> Now, you bump that up to 1 1/2d6 and your chance of an 'instant kill' 
> goes up dramatically. 
 
Oh, yeah. 
 
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From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net> 
To: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com&> <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: GAZZA's Analysis of the Champions List 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:32:51 -0500 
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-----Original Message----- 
From: Goode, Jason <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 8:28 AM 
Subject: RE: GAZZA's Analysis of the Champions List 
 
 
>On Tuesday, May 19, 1998 1:14 AM, Robert A. West [SMTP:robtwest@erols.com] 
>wrote: 
>> And, of course, since these two debates cannot be engaged in without 
>> engaging in both, they are clearly Linked(-1/2)! 
>> 
>> ;-) ;-) ;-) 
>> -- 
>> <-------------------------------------------------------> 
>> Robert A. West ///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
>> Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113 
>> http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
>> 
> 
>Good one!  That actually made me laugh out loud.  Thanks for the morning 
>chuckle. 
> 
Yes, however the question is, which one is worth less points and theirfore 
actually recieves the disad? 
 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
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John and Ron Prins writes: 
 
> I said nothing about converting between BGC and C:NM. I talked about 
> converting MektonZ stats to BGC. 
 
And while I mentioned switching characters from C:NM and BGC, I also 
mentioned elsewhere that I expect the "challenges" of conversion to become 
greater with the upcoming Mekton Zeta instance of Fuzion.  A version of 
Robot Warriors updated for the 4th edition (perhaps as a subset of or 
chapter in The Ultimate Vehicle?) would have fewer problems with 
"conversion" since transposition between one Hero-based universe and 
another usually does not require conversion (unless the GM has instituted 
house rules for a particular universe). 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: GAZZA's Analysis of the Champions List 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 14:44:10 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tuesday, May 19, 1998 2:33 PM, Marc Seebass 
[SMTP:kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net] wrote: 
>  
> >> And, of course, since these two debates cannot be engaged in without 
> >> engaging in both, they are clearly Linked(-1/2)! 
> >> 
> > 
> >Good one!  That actually made me laugh out loud.  Thanks for the morning 
> >chuckle. 
> > 
> Yes, however the question is, which one is worth less points and theirfore 
> actually recieves the disad? 
>  
 
Heh, heh. 
 
"...worth less..." 
 
"worthless" 
 
Heh, heh. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 11:44:27 -0700 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 01:08 PM 5/19/98 -0500, Sakura wrote: 
>On Tue, 19 May 1998, Lizard wrote: 
> 
>> Apparently, the authors 
>> of Fuzion decided that complicated, graduate-degree level math like 
>> 'multiplication' and 'division' were beyond todays gamers, so they took a 
>> gamble with college-level concepts like 'addition' and 'subtraction'. 
> 
><snip> 
> 
>> ("My mage wants a 3d6 explosion." "OK, 3 dice, take away 2, it does 1 dice, 
>> so, it doesn't actually explode.")  
> 
>This example is, of course, grossly unfair to Fuzion.  Using my poor 
>Usenet-rotted brain, I was able to come up with this: 
> 
>"My mage wants a 3d6 explosion." 
>"OK, to get 3d6 of final effect you'll have to buy 5 dice, because you 
>     lose two to give it the explosion." 
>"All right." (scribbles happily) 
> 
>And I don't even /play/ Fuzion. 
 
In a low-powered game, you might not HAVE 5 dice to spend. Regardless, 
let's use your example. The mage gets 60% effectiveness. The high-powered 
super gets 83% effectiveness. The higher you ratchet the power level, the 
more cost-effective an advantage becomes -- something quite untrue in Hero, 
where adding advantages to a high active point power sends the point cost 
into the stratosphere.  
 
 
>First you insult the Fuzion authors for 'dumbing down the system', and 
>then you assume the Fuzion /players/ are going to be unable to comprehend 
>even that. 
> 
>Have you given any serious thought as to /why/ they might have done this, 
>or did you just assume it was to make it easier?  Have you checked to see 
>that it's actually unbalanced?  Have you asked the designers why they 
>chose to do it this way? Maybe there are reasons... 
> 
Check out the math above. If the cost for an enhancement is flat, the power 
becomes CHEAPER to enhance the more powerful it becomes. Fixed-price 
enhancements work well with fixed-price powers, such as Invisibility 
(become invisible to 'x' additional sense groups for 'y' more points). It 
doesn't work with powers which scale. 
 
Imagine, if you will, that 'Explosion' cost 10 points to add to any Energy 
Blast. So a 3d6 explosion would cost 25 points, a 6d6 explosion 40 points, 
and a 10d6 explosion 70 points. So in the first case, you lose a full third 
effective damage against a single target, while in the last case, you lose 
20%. A hypothetical 20d6 explosion would lose only 10%.  
 
That isn't balanced. Period. Due to the bell curve, such losses hit harder 
the lower the power level is -- and my great hope for Fuzion would be that 
it would handle low-power characters better than hero. 
 
And it could still have been done simply. Would this have been so hard to 
add to Fuzion: 
 
"Explosion:To make your Energy Blast explosive, add 1 point for every 3 
dice of damage. So a 3 dice explosion will cost 4 points, and a 6 dice 
explosion with cost eight points, and so on." 
 
Still simpler that multiplying advantages and dividing limitations, but a 
lot more balanced. Sure, there's an obvious min-max, but the same 
'breakpoints' exist in Hero (Charges, for one thing). 
 
(I'm not claiming those are the best numbers, I just made them up. But 
would it really have been hard to ratio the cost of an advantage or limit 
to the total value of the power?) 
 
I am not a math whiz -- anything much beyond basic arithmetic throws me 
completely. If I can figure out Champions power creation, ANYONE can. 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: jprins@interhop.net, champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: BGC 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 14:58:09 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tuesday, May 19, 1998 2:13 PM, jprins@interhop.net 
[SMTP:jprins@interhop.net] wrote: 
> >Sorry you didn't like BGC. 
>  
> Why? Did you write it? 
>  
 
Nope.  Just from the "tone" of the e-mail, it seemed like you were really 
hyped to see it come out as a game, only to be disappointed.  I have felt 
that way before, and I know how it sucks.  I was expressing empathy. 
 
Jaosn Goode 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 14:04:24 -0500 (CDT) 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Palace of Dwarves <pod@avalon.net> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>I have.  Quite often supers groups I have been in have had Paramedic, but 
>no Aid powers of any kind. 
>  
There are two ways for a 1d6+1K to kill a 10 BODY normal in one shot: 
> 
>1 - the GM said so. 
> 
>2 - use hit location.  A hit to the head does 2xBODY, so a die roll of 5,6 
>or 7 will do 10, 12 or 14 BODY in a single shot, more than enough to but 
>the victim down. Now, at 0 BODY the person is on the edge of death, at -2 
>and -4 he can die pretty quickly.   
> 
>Pepole survive gunshot wounds on an amazing basis, even multiple gunshot 
>wounds.  Now, you bump that up to 1 1/2d6 and your chance of an 'instant 
>kill' goes up dramatically. 
 
 
     I totaly agree with MS here.  In my last session that I ran, one of the 
heroes 
hit a normal with a 2D6K.  Inflicting 12 BODY, he dropped the normal down to  
0 BODY.  Consulting the BBB, we found out that a normal can die if he takes 
his entire BODY in one shot (see pp. 164).  This is an optional rule though. 
     The normal didn't die though.  I decided to make a role to see if he 
would die 
from the one-shot to the vitals; he lived.  But he would have died if one of 
the heroes  
had not applied parademics to him. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Date: 19 May 1998 15:05:05 -0400 
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Lizard  writes: 
 
> That isn't balanced. Period. Due to the bell curve, such losses hit 
> harder the lower the power level is -- and my great hope for Fuzion would 
> be that it would handle low-power characters better than hero. 
 
My one personal favorite Hero house rule, which only works in a campaign 
that will *NEVER* have characters with characteristics more than a few 
points beyond the normal maxima, is to base Characteristic rolls and rolls 
based on Characteristics to be the Characteristic, rather than 9+(Char/5). 
To wit, a character with a DEX of 16 has a 16- DEX roll, rather than 12-. 
 
Like I said, it will only work in a solidly heroic-level campaign. 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:23:34 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>>> > pointing out the relative difficulty in killing people. 
>>>  
>>> 3d6 to the head?  A base normal has 10 body and 0 rPD.  3d6 killing 
>>> averages 11.5 body.  Hit someone anywhere but the feet or hands and he 
>>> is dying, and IIRC will bleed to death in less than two minutes. 
>> 
>>Without attention from someone with Paramedic skill or a BODY Aid.  I  
>>have never seen a group of more than two PCs who lacked both. 
> 
>Yes but the point was that its hard to kill people in Hero... and saying 
that some can supernaturally heal someone as an argument for that is hardly 
valid heh heh.  If you use hit locations and hit someone in the head like 
that, they DIE, on the spot, instantly.  If you dont, they are horribly 
wounded and will die without unusual assistance, just like in real life. 
The difference comes when you say that paramedic can save someone, which it 
can in games without the more realistic rules implemented.  And the reason 
these arent in the game is because its not supposed to be so realistic. 
> 
>In other words, Hero is neither more nor less realistic, it is flexible 
enough to be both.  Now the falling rules.... are another story heheh 
> 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:30:38 -0700 
To: Michael Surbrook <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>> > If you aim for the head, an 1.5d6k is enough to kill (1d6+1 with a 
>> > slightly better than average roll). 
>>  
>> A .38 is typically pointed as a 1D6+1K: hitting a 10 BODY normal in the  
>> head with a 1D6+1K cannot possibly kill the person outright, and may not  
>> even place the person on the dying schedule.  In any case, the good guys  
>> will have a full minute at absolute minimum to win the battle and save  
>> the victim.  Since most Champions battles take only one or two turns to  
>> resolve, this is not generally a problem. 
>>  
> 
>There are two ways for a 1d6+1K to kill a 10 BODY normal in one shot: 
> 
>1 - the GM said so. 
 
This usually comes from using Disabling and Impairing wounds.  A hit to the 
head that disables probably will kill (it will on meaningless cannon fodder) 
and an impairing one almost certainly will (unless its a key character or a PC). 
 
>People survive gunshot wounds on an amazing basis, even multiple gunshot 
>wounds.  Now, you bump that up to 1 1/2d6 and your chance of an 'instant 
>kill' goes up dramatically. 
 
This is a point people seem to not be aware of or just dont want to 
believe... or have seen too many movies hehehe. 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:31:52 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 08:39 PM 5/18/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>> You know...I've seen this stance time and again from Hero gamers.  I've 
>> seen it in arg -- I mean, discussions regarding the superiority of Hero 
>> to GURPS. 
> 
>GURPS suffers from the "necessity" of buying fifty books to get all of the 
>rules.  But I have not seen a lack of portability in GURPS characters. 
 
   Aren't most of these "secondary" rules in the GURPS Compendiums?  (Or 
should that be "Compendia"?) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:44:25 -0700 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:32 PM 5/18/1998 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote: 
>I think this was the whole point of that exchange.  Equal point values do 
>not equal characters make.  Regardless of what Rat says, there is no way 
>that a 200 point warrior from fantasy hero, a 200 point private eye from 
>pulp hero, a 200 point energy projector from champions and a 200 point 
>starship pilot from star hero are balanced or "competative".  At least with 
>Rule of X (which is simply the hero campaign guides compressed into an easy 
>to use formula) you can determine cross-genre effectiveness in one area. 
 
   This brings up one of the strengths of Hero, though (and one that I've 
already mentioned).  Those four 200-point characters can all sit down and 
interact easily enough in a single setting with little or no adjustment. 
Sure, the Energy Projector has to pay for her own powers while the other 
three get equipment (and I'm going to assume that those four are 75+75+50, 
rather than 100+100 or 75+125 plus equipment), but at least the GM won't 
have to struggle with calculating new stats for some of them, balancing 
plug-ins that were created without consideration for one another, or any 
similar work. 
   (That said, I consider the lack of portability to be not so much a 
weakness in itself as an unfortunate side effect of its flexibility. 
Outside the nascent Hero Universe, there probably won't be a whole lot of 
campaign-jumping of characters from one Fuzion game to another, so 
genre-to-genre portability is really less of an issue than one might think 
from these discussions.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Balance 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 15:53:04 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tuesday, May 19, 1998 12:17 PM, Stainless Steel Rat 
[SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net] wrote: 
> Take a good, long look at Dream Park, both the books and the game based on 
> the books. 
>  
 
I have.  Pretty neat. 
 
> Now look at Mike Surbrook's comments about what the GM has to do to make 
> the game interesting for all the characters involved. 
>  
 
I have.  I agree with him 100%.  However, the GM factor was not part of the 
original premise. 
 
> Yes, you *can* put a 1950's G-Man and a 1990's superhero into a third 
> universe and have them be competative -- that is, one character will not 
> always outsihine the other.  No changes to the characters are necessary. 
> All it takes is a competant GM. 
>  
 
That is correct, and, as I stated before, I agree.  Again, GM competency was 
not part of the original premise.  
 
Jason Goode 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:56:26 -0700 
To: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net&> 
        <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:05 PM 5/18/1998 -0500, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote: 
>>   What it really seems to boil down to, at least in my view, is whether 
>>you want a solid game system or a solid universe. 
>>   The Hero Game System is a very solid system -- its mechanics are pretty 
>>consistent from one world to the next.   
>>   Fuzion has several strong settings, starting with Bubblegum Crisis and 
>>Champions: The New Millennium.  However, while these settings are 
>>consistent and well fleshed-out, the game system is not.  
> 
>Factoid 1: Players and GMs will frequently use their own homegrown settings. 
 
   Not to mention their own homegrown rules.  In fact, many of the GMs I've 
seen who use homegrown settings also use rules options that are so far 
removed from the "standard" rule system as to be at least as incompatible 
as BGC vs C:TNM. 
 
>Factoid 2: Very frequently, RPG "setting" books are sufficiently generic 
>they can be dropped into any of several game systems with no alteration. 
 
   With no alteration of the setting itself, yes.  But with no alteration 
of the character and item statistics? 
 
>Considering the above, I'd argue that it only makes sense to choose your 
>game system on the basis of how solid the game system itself if; you can 
>pick up a universe anywhere, or create your own if you prefer.  Barring the 
>occasional house rule, people aren't going to create their own game 
>systems, however. 
 
   I've found that house rules are quite a bit more than "occasional," though. 
 
>That means, to me, the primary consideration by a considerable margin is 
>how well does the system -- irrespective of setting -- hang together?  The 
>company that sells me on that gets my business for game products, including 
>first shot at my gaming dollar for "setting" books.  I've used Hero system 
>to play Bureau 13, and I'm currently in a GURPS game set on Harnworld.  I 
>chose the Hero system over the TriTac game after comparing the game 
>mechanics, then I dropped the Bureau 13 setting into that game.  Our GURPS 
>GM felt he liked the GURPS mechanics better than those of Harn, so he 
>adopted only the Harn setting for a GUPRS campaign. 
 
   It's a bit of work, ain't it?  More work than playing straight from the 
book, as one would be able to do with BGC or Bright Future. 
 
>It would seem ludicrous to me to say "I'm running a Bureau 13 campaign, it 
>just uses Hero rules".  The game system defines the campaign, everything 
>else is window dressing. 
 
   Interesting; I've always considered the setting to define the campaign 
more than the game system.  In your example, I wouldn't think of it as 
dropping the Bureau 13 setting into the Hero mechanics, but the Hero 
mechanics into the Bureau 13 setting.  I'd be saying "It's a Bureau 13 
campaign with the Hero rules" (no apology for not using the packaged system). 
   Similarly, when the time comes around to playtest Chaos Theory, I'd be 
saying, "It's a comedic 'dark conspiracy' campaign using the Hero Game 
system."  (And I don't think I'd want to try it with Fuzion; I think HGS 
would be most likely to give it the proper "feel.") 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:01:34 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:33 PM 5/18/1998 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote: 
>On Monday, May 18, 1998 11:00 PM, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>>  
>> Uh... pardon?  I'm given a Fuzion character to play in my Fuzion game, and 
>> you tell me I have to 'use your knowledge of the game system to adapt them 
>> to what you are working in'?  What is that supposed to mean?  You make 
>> it sound like I've got convert from Fuzion 1.2 to Fuzion 1.3 in order to 
>> make things work out right.  I don't see this sort of converting and 
>> adding and subtracting of stats in Hero games. 
> 
>Now I understand why the last few comments you made seemed so weird.  You 
>must have jumped in mid-thread.  THe topic was cross-genre compatability. 
>That's the conversion they were talking about. 
 
   In Fuzion, cross-genre compatibility and cross-version compatibility 
basically are the same thing. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:06:57 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:13 AM 5/19/1998 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote: 
>On Monday, May 18, 1998 11:28 PM, Michael Surbrook 
>[SMTP:susano@access.digex.net] wrote: 
>>  
>> > Such was life in fuedal Japan. 
>>  
>> IT'S SPELLED *FEUDAL*!!! 
>>  
>> This is, like, the third time I've seen it misspelled (and not just by 
>> Jason) in this thread! 
>>  
>> Ahem... 
>>  
>> uh...  
>>  
>> err...  
>>  
>> sorry. 
>>  
>> I was just in a feudal Japan game and regularly play SCA and stuff like 
>> that gets to me. 
> 
>umm..Michael...there's this drug called Valium.  Seems like you could get 
>some good usage out of it.  8) 
> 
>If it makes you feel better, I'll let the spell checker finish checking 
>before I send out e-mails from now on. 
 
   Wouldn't that be a feudal effort?  ;-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:10:11 -0700 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:19 AM 5/19/1998 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote: 
>On Monday, May 18, 1998 11:41 PM, Michael Surbrook 
>[SMTP:susano@access.digex.net] wrote: 
>> No, I was here from the start.  And yes, I'm commenting on the cross-genre 
>> compatability.  Why should I have to 'convert' from one genre to another? 
>> This is why I dislike Fuzion, one can add and subtract stats willy-nilly, 
>> resulting in characters that could make little sense outside of the home 
>> campaign.  If I drop a heroic level fantsy swordsmen into a Star Trek 
>> world, I don't have to convert anything, all I really have to do is accept 
>> the fact that most of his skills won't be of much use on a Federation 
>> starship. 
> 
>Then I misunderstood.  There is no conversion.  The big thing brought up was 
>BGC.  I don't understand what the problem here is.  We've dropped C:NM chars 
>into BGC with NO problem.  Not one.  No muss, no fuss, no conversion. 
> 
>Only thing I can figure is that these guys do way more cross-genre Fuzion 
>than me. 
 
   Wasn't there a big discussion over on the Fuzion Mailing List a little 
while back about how unbalanced BGC mecha vs C:TNM superheroes were? 
Something about the Super-Powers and Mekton plug-ins being balanced within 
themselves, but not against each other.... 
   (Personally, I'd prefer just taking Bruce Harlick's Heroic Vehicles 
Plug-In and using as a basis for completely adapting the Hero Vehicles 
rules, with modifications from TUSV.  But then, that's just me.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 15:15:32 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Climbing (was Re: Champions artists) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On 19 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
> Sakura  writes: 
> >> But *THIS* instance of the power *DOES* duplicate the skill. 
>  
> > Clinging in any form is going to be better than climbing - it's a 'super 
> > climbing', if you will. 
>  
> True, unless you put limitations on it, which is the case in this 
> instance. 
 
Even if you /do/ put RSR on it, it's better than the Climbing skill, for 
the reasons that you snipped out of your reply - basically, it makes 
things possible that simply cannot be one using regular Climbing skill.  
I'm afraid I don't see your point.  
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:34:23 -0400 (EDT) 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Usagi (was: Re: BGC) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>> >Sorry you didn't like BGC. 
>>  
>> Why? Did you write it? 
> 
>Nope.  Just from the "tone" of the e-mail, it seemed like you were really 
>hyped to see it come out as a game, only to be disappointed.  I have felt 
>that way before, and I know how it sucks.  I was expressing empathy. 
 
Ah, my mistake. Well, at least Usagi Yojimbo didn't disappoint. Other than a 
lack of Jei...and Chizu...<ducks and hides from Mark>, though I have a 
sneaking suspicion the Grasscutter story arc will kill him off (for real 
this time). 
 
Say, when are those UY suppliments coming out? <want, want, want> 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!" 
-Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 15:37:59 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 19 May 1998, Lizard wrote: 
> At 01:08 PM 5/19/98 -0500, Sakura wrote: 
> > 
> >"My mage wants a 3d6 explosion." 
> >"OK, to get 3d6 of final effect you'll have to buy 5 dice, because you 
> >     lose two to give it the explosion." 
> >"All right." (scribbles happily) 
> > 
> >And I don't even /play/ Fuzion. 
>  
> In a low-powered game, you might not HAVE 5 dice to spend. 
 
Then maybe the effect is too powerful for that game?  In a low powered 
HERO game, you might be able to buy your explosive fireball, but the power 
level on it might be too weak to affect anyone. 
 
> Regardless, 
> let's use your example. The mage gets 60% effectiveness. The high-powered 
> super gets 83% effectiveness. 
 
I assume that you're basing these percentages on the amount of points 
spent on the 'Explosive' enhancement vs. the total points in the power. 
Yes, that's how Hero-4 does it.  It's not how Fuzion does it.  For 
whatever reason, the designers decided that the ability to make an 
explosion was worth 2 points per attack, and the size of the attack was 
immaterial - at least, that's how I understand it. 
 
It's different than H4.  Is it bad? Not because it's different from H4. 
If someone playtested this and had soem evidence to say 'hey, this is 
unbalancing' rather than saying, 'well, it would be unbalancing in a 
different game system', then I might give some more credence to their 
claims. 
 
> The higher you ratchet the power level, the 
> more cost-effective an advantage becomes -- something quite untrue in Hero, 
> where adding advantages to a high active point power sends the point cost 
> into the stratosphere. 
 
True.  But, in HERO, there are advantages which actually become /less/ 
cost effective as the power goes up.  If your average 10d6 EB is going to 
do 15 stun to the average super after defenses, the points you put into 
penetrating aren't really worth it, unless you're scared of getting low 
rolls.  They'd be better off spent in Armor Piercing, for example. 
  
> Imagine, if you will, that 'Explosion' cost 10 points to add to any Energy 
> Blast. So a 3d6 explosion would cost 25 points, a 6d6 explosion 40 points, 
> and a 10d6 explosion 70 points. So in the first case, you lose a full third 
> effective damage against a single target, while in the last case, you lose 
> 20%. A hypothetical 20d6 explosion would lose only 10%.  
>  
> That isn't balanced.  
 
It isn't balanced in HERO and from a HERO viewpoint.  But Fuzion is a 
different game system.  I could find examples in GURPS Supers of things 
that aren't balanced between there and HERO, and it wouldn't mean 
anything. 
 
What the designers of Fuzion seem to have decided is that the ability to 
make an attack explosive (for example) is worth a flat 2 points. Why? 
There's obviously a different way of looking at the problem than the H4 
viewpoint, otherwise they wouldn't have done it. 
 
Basically, it's challenging the assumption of H4 that a 12d6 Energy Blast 
(60 points) is of equivalent usefulness to a 8d6 Explosion (also 60 
points).  It's saying the usefulness of being able to create an explosion 
is about the same no matter how big it is.   
 
I don't know if they're right, but I'm going to judge Fuzion as a game on 
its own standards first, not by Hero 4th Edition standards. They have a 
different design philosophy.  Does it work? There are enough players of 
Fuzion, so I'm going to guess 'yes, it works'.  Working in play is a lot 
more important than the mathematics of it - IMHO, at least.  
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Balance 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 19 May 1998 17:41:08 -0400 
Lines: 33 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Goode, Jason writes: 
 
>> Yes, you *can* put a 1950's G-Man and a 1990's superhero into a third 
>> universe and have them be competative -- that is, one character will not 
>> always outsihine the other.  No changes to the characters are necessary. 
>> All it takes is a competant GM. 
 
> That is correct, and, as I stated before, I agree.  Again, GM competency 
> was not part of the original premise. 
 
Re-read the second to last sentence in the previous statement.  Hero needs 
a competant GM.  Fuzion needs recalculation of characters in cases where 
"averages" are inappropriate, in addition to a competant GM. 
 
The end. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Superman (1938) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 19 May 1998 17:45:29 -0400 
Lines: 35 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Trevor Barrie writes: 
 
> On Mon, 18 May 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>> 43	Superhuman Speed Multipower: 43 Point Pool 
>> 8	u - Running: +20" (26" Total), END 5 
>> 9	u - Leaping: Superleap: +43" (50" Total), END 10 
 
> I'm leary of allowing multiple movement Powers in a Multipower, 
> personally.  You can't use more than one simultaneously in any case, 
 
Half-phase movements.  A character with 20" Running and 40" of Superleap 
can half-move 10" Running, and half-move 20" Superleap as his action phase. 
 
But Multipowers may/must only be allocated as a 0-phase action at the start 
of the character's action phase.  In this particular case, if Superman has 
the Superleap slot active, he cannot use the Running slot at all until his 
next action phase. 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 17:48:25 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Superman (1938) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 19 May 1998, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
 
> On Mon, 18 May 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>  
> > 43	Superhuman Speed Multipower: 43 Point Pool 
> > 8	u - Running: +20" (26" Total), END 5 
> > 9	u - Leaping: Superleap: +43" (50" Total), END 10 
>  
> I'm leary of allowing multiple movement Powers in a Multipower, personally. 
> You can't use more than one simultaneously in any case, so why should you 
> get a point break for putting them in an MP? (On the flip side, buying 
> multiple movement Powers raw may be over-costed.) 
 
Whoops... that's supposed to be two 'M' slots there, to allow Supes to us 
his Running and Leaping in the same Phase.  Note: buying these seperately 
would cost a whole mess of points... something like 83 points or so. 
  
> > 100+	Disadvantages 
> > 10	Not above using strong-arm tactics (C, M) 
>  
> How is _not_ being above such tactics a Disadvantage? 
  
It is a Psych Lim that defines how he acts.  A moderate Psych defines such 
things as course of action and targets.  His strong-arm stunts (like 
hauling a person around DC roof tops by his ankle) could backfire one 
day... what if the guy has a weak heart and suffers a heart atatck during 
Supe's interrogation? 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 17:54:32 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Superman (1938) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On 19 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> > On Mon, 18 May 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
> >> 43	Superhuman Speed Multipower: 43 Point Pool 
> >> 8	u - Running: +20" (26" Total), END 5 
> >> 9	u - Leaping: Superleap: +43" (50" Total), END 10 
 
> But Multipowers may/must only be allocated as a 0-phase action at the start 
> of the character's action phase.  In this particular case, if Superman has 
> the Superleap slot active, he cannot use the Running slot at all until his 
> next action phase. 
 
Yeah, but as I noted in my other post, those are supposed to be multi 
slots, as the math with quickly show.   
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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From: "potroast@theoven" <darkwraith@worldnet.att.net> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: con? 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:57:30 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
A pessimist applied to God for relief. 
"Ah, you wish me to restore your hope and cheerfulness." said God 
"No," replied the petitioner, "I wish you to create something that would 
justify them." 
"the world is all created," said God, "but you have overlooked something-   
the mortality of the optimist." 
                                            --Ambrose Bierce 
 
Just a question, a bit off of subject but is anyone going to A-con (a anime 
convention) in Dallas? 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Superman (1938) 
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Date: 19 May 1998 18:11:22 -0400 
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Michael Surbrook writes: 
 
> Yeah, but as I noted in my other post, those are supposed to be multi 
> slots, as the math with quickly show. 
 
That does not change the premise.  If you allocate 30 points of a 40-point 
multipower to one slot, you have only 10 points to allocate to the other 
slot.  Multi or ultra slots, it still affects your half-move capabilities. 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 17:49:28 -0500 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Superman (1938) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>> > 100+	Disadvantages 
>> > 10	Not above using strong-arm tactics (C, M) 
>>  
>> How is _not_ being above such tactics a Disadvantage? 
>  
>It is a Psych Lim that defines how he acts.  A moderate Psych defines such 
>things as course of action and targets.  His strong-arm stunts (like 
>hauling a person around DC roof tops by his ankle) could backfire one 
>day... what if the guy has a weak heart and suffers a heart atatck during 
>Supe's interrogation? 
 
For anyone reluctant to accept that as a Psych Lim, the same behavior could 
also be defined as a Reputation...except that a hero making his very first 
appearance isn't likely to have a Rep yet. 
 
Damon 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:10:28 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Superman (1938) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On 19 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> Michael Surbrook writes: 
>  
> > Yeah, but as I noted in my other post, those are supposed to be multi 
> > slots, as the math with quickly show. 
>  
> That does not change the premise.  If you allocate 30 points of a 40-point 
> multipower to one slot, you have only 10 points to allocate to the other 
> slot.  Multi or ultra slots, it still affects your half-move capabilities. 
 
All I was trying to say was that the character used multi-slots, which 
allow one to allocate points to both movement slots at the beginning of a 
Phase. If they were both ultras, you couldn't do that.  making them 
multis, however, does llow some flexability and is less of a 'corck' than 
all ultra movement slots would be. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:47:31 -0400 (EDT) 
From: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net> 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
cc: Hero List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Vehicles and Acceleration 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 19 May 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    Well, for one thing, Acceleration isn't relative to SPD; per the BBB 
> (page 142), it's relative to the amount of distance traveled.  Thus the 
 
Per the BBB page 55:   
 
   Characters can accelerate or declerate up to his full  
combat velocity each Phase.  Within a Phase the charac- 
ter can add 5" velocity per hex he moves, up to his com- 
                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
bat velocity. 
^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
 
Also per the BBB page 144: 
 
   Vehicles can move just like characters: they have a SPD, 
combat velocity, and a noncombat velocity.  However, all 
vehicles must use the rules for Turn Mode.  For more details 
on Turn Mode, see Flight, above. 
 
This means a character and vehicle (Based on the previous two paragraphs) 
accelerate at a rate of 5" per hex traveled UP TO the combat movement of 
the vehicle or person.(Ignore non-combat multiples for acceleration)  This 
means that a vehicle with 20" of movement at speed 3 CANNOT get to 60 
miles per hour in 3 inches.  Because at 20" per phase (again per page 144) 
the vehicle would only be travelling at 20 miles per hour.(20" * 3 = 60" 
per turn or 20 miles per hour) 
 
> indeterminate vehicle you cite (SPD 3, Ground Move 20") would achieve 60 
> MPH (assuming your velocity conversion is accurate, and I have no reason to 
> believe otherwise) after 3" of movement -- in other words, within its 
> 4-second Phase. 
>    I do have something of a fix for this in TUSV.  The amount of 
> acceleration that a vehicle can achieve is reduced by 1" for every level of 
> Size; after this reaches 1" of acceleration per 1" moved, the chart simply 
> adds 1" that must be moved before accelerating 1".  Thus, the semi-truck, 
> at +1" per 4", would have to move 60" (~200') to reach 60mph; the 
> Fleetwood, at +1" per 2", would have to move 30" (~100') to get there; and 
> the Porsche, at +2" per 1", would only have to move 8" (~25' -- all of this 
> assuming 15"=60 mph; perhaps someone else can make more accurate 
> calculations than this). 
 
This is not required when you figure in the rest of the rules in the BBB, 
but it is still an interesting concept. (IMHO) 
 
>    Of course, these vehicles decelerate at the same rate. 
>    Just for those vehicles that are more powerful than this (either more 
> powerful engine or more powerful brakes), my current manuscript also 
> introduces Acceleration and Deceleration as Talents.  For every 2 points 
> spent in one of these, the vehicle moves up one step of Acceleration or 
> Deceleration.  So to give the Fleetwood above the engine power of the 
> Porsche, it would spend 4 points in Acceleration (though its brakes would 
> still work at -1" per 2" travelled). 
>    Of course, all this is rather sketchy, and may need additional work. 
> But I think it's a step in the right direction. 
> --- 
> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
> Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
>  
>  
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:58:20 -0400 
From: Chris Paladino <Dino@En.com> 
Organization: EN 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Superman (1938) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Trevor Barrie wrote: 
 
> I'm leary of allowing multiple movement Powers in a Multipower, personally. 
> You can't use more than one simultaneously in any case, so why should you 
> get a point break for putting them in an MP? (On the flip side, buying 
> multiple movement Powers raw may be over-costed.) 
 
    Well, if you really wanna get stingy, why have Elemental Control OR 
multipower.  The reason?  They give a point break to those who have "meat" for 
their character...  Fire people get the Elemental Control, etc...  You just (as 
a GM) have to watch what the players use, and how they use it. 
 
-- 
Chris Paladino 
 
 
Dino@En.com 
CPaladino@Jcvaxa.jcu.edu 
http://www.en.com/users/dino/index.html 
 
 
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Importance of a varied Hero Team (Was Why Stick w/ HSR?) 
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 11:02:51 +1000 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
---------- 
> From: Chris Paladino <Dino@En.com> 
> To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
> Subject: Importance of a varied Hero Team (Was Why Stick w/ HSR?) 
> Date: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 9:39 PM 
>  
> >i mean you could argue the same thing about supers- like who doesn't 
> jean 
> >grey have the guts to box with juggernaught? becasu it's NOT HER 
> >DEPARTMENT!! 
>  
>  
> I dunno, our adventures are a little more combat oriented, yet we still 
> have two bricks, A normal human w/ uzis, an alien (from the movie w/ the 
> same name), and a martial artist.  This matchup isn't by-the-book 
> perfect for tactics, but this team works really well together for some 
> reason!  Each member must have some sort of specialty that the others 
> don't...  Makes the game more fun because we can spread the spotlight 
> around rather than one guy being a combat-beast, and someone else being 
> smart. 
>  
>  
>  
 
Well, i'm pretty sure an enormously powerful psi like mrs grey can fight  
people, just not in a particular preconcieved way. This is simmilar to a  
comment on this list some time ago, where a gm got a bit annoyed at a  
player of a psionic becasue he snuck around the edges of a fight being 
sneaky  
in his attacks  
and not exposing himself to direct assault. Considering his powers i think 
ths was 
a good idea.  And note that your logic is based on the idea of evryone 
*wanting* to fight. .. . some of the teams i've gm'ed have included 
low-combat members,  
including a villain group which acted as cover for a normal thief (ok 250+ 
points 
but you get my meaning) while he cleaned out banks nearby. . .  
 
 
 
> -- 
> Chris Paladino 
>  
>  
> Dino@En.com 
> CPaladino@Jcvaxa.jcu.edu 
> http://www.en.com/users/dino/index.html 
>  
>  
 
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From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Player Skills Census (was GAZZA's Analysis of the Champions List) 
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 11:10:00 +1000 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>  
> Lessee....my campaign includes or has recently included practicing  
> professionals as follows: 
>  
 
 
<snip>  
 
Thai fighters and black belts, in a martial arts game.  
nuff said? 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Superman (1938) 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 19 May 1998 21:12:32 -0400 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Michael Surbrook writes: 
 
> making them multis, however, does llow some flexability and is less of a 
> 'corck' than all ultra movement slots would be. 
 
All-ultra slot movement Multipowers are no more a crock than any other 
Multipower.  Once you have allocated your slots, multi or ultra, that is 
it, you cannot change them until you get another action phase. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Date: 19 May 1998 21:15:45 -0400 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Bob Greenwade writes: 
 
>> GURPS suffers from the "necessity" of buying fifty books to get all of the 
>> rules.  But I have not seen a lack of portability in GURPS characters. 
 
>    Aren't most of these "secondary" rules in the GURPS Compendiums?  (Or 
> should that be "Compendia"?) 
 
As was pointed out to me, yes.  I did not know of the (relatively) recently 
published Compendia (yes, that is the correct plural for the Latin root). 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Inter-plug-in balance 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:29:17 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tuesday, May 19, 1998 4:10 PM, Bob Greenwade 
[SMTP:bob.greenwade@klock.com] wrote: 
>  
>    Wasn't there a big discussion over on the Fuzion Mailing List a little 
> while back about how unbalanced BGC mecha vs C:TNM superheroes were? 
> Something about the Super-Powers and Mekton plug-ins being balanced within 
> themselves, but not against each other.... 
 
(I was really trying to bow out of this futile thread, or is that feudal 
thread ;-) ) 
 
The mecha themselves are not unbalanced against superheroes as long as you 
apply the Rule of X as presented in the Fuzion core rules.  This makes sense 
when you consider that even basic Boomers are basically pumped up versions 
of Iron Man's armor with artificial intelligence.  I've dropped superheroes 
in to BGC with no problem. 
 
Yes to the inter-plug-in balance thing.  It works out that buying a BFG in 
the Mekton Plug-in and buying a BFG in the Superpowers Plug-in have slightly 
different costs.  Personally, I fell that the plug-ins presented in the book 
were put together too quickly, but then that could just be my Hero training 
talking.  They are internally consistent, but slightly inconsistent with 
each other. 
 
Christian Conkle smacked us all in the head and said the solution is pretty 
simple when you keep the design philosophy in mind.  When a GM sits down to 
design a campaign, one of the things that he does is decide what plug-ins 
best suit the flavor of his campaign.  Those are the ones he uses.  Since a 
superpowers plug-in can be used to create mecha, there is no point in using 
a mecha plug-in.  It's sort of like Rat's view on the climbing with the 
extraordinary skill rules vs. clinging RSR - it's redundant.  They both do 
the same thing.  The difference is that Mekton is mecha specific and 
therefore let's you get *really* detailed about creating the mecha, whereas 
with a superpowers plug-in, you design a mecha much like you do any other 
vehicle in Hero.  Decide which method is more appropriate and use that 
plug-in.  This is consistent with the design philosophy and allows you to 
jump from genre to genre without all of the recalculation and adjustment 
that Rat claims you have to do.  As I said before, I've dropped supers into 
BGC with no recalculation or adjustment and not had any problems. 
 
Of course, I have been told that the mecha in BGC where built with Mekton 
Zeta+ and then converted over.  The feeling I get is that the plug-ins 
presented in the C:NM book (Superpowers, Mekton, etc) are something to get 
you up and running until they could do the full-blown plug-ins like the 
powers book and Mekton Zeta+.  Personally, I use Jason A. Dour's Heroic 
Abilities Plug-in.  It brings back the full functionality of Hero's power 
creation system and then some.   
 
>    (Personally, I'd prefer just taking Bruce Harlick's Heroic Vehicles 
> Plug-In and using as a basis for completely adapting the Hero Vehicles 
> rules, with modifications from TUSV.  But then, that's just me.) 
 
Downloaded it but haven't had a chance to read it. 
 
Jason 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: HSR <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Powers lists 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:35:44 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tuesday, May 19, 1998 1:53 PM, Trevor Barrie [SMTP:tbarrie@ibm.net] 
wrote: 
> character creation. But if you're going to sell a super-hero RPG, you'd 
> better make sure it's playable in the super-hero genre, and a system with 
> just a power list just isn't. 
>  
 
Says you, says me and probably most, if not all, of the people on this list 
too, but that philosophy doesn't wash with all the HU, MSH, DCH, etc. 
players out there.   You and I could never stomach it, but it works for 
them. 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Balance 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:37:30 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tuesday, May 19, 1998 12:57 PM, Trevor Barrie [SMTP:tbarrie@ibm.net] 
wrote: 
>  
> Presumably because some of them have to pay points for their normal-level 
> equipment, and some don't. Other than that, yes, they should be balanced. 
 
Not intrisically.  That is up to the GM. 
 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Put off by what 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:41:03 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tuesday, May 19, 1998 1:18 PM, Trevor Barrie [SMTP:tbarrie@ibm.net] 
wrote: 
> On Mon, 18 May 1998, Goode, Jason wrote: 
>  
> > When I decided to start a second group, I handed one of the players my 
> > Hero4/Champions book.  He flipped through it and said, "You're kidding, 
> > right?" 
>  
> Could you elaborate? What exactly was he put off by? 
 
Think back to before you became familiar with the system.  Before you 
understood just how cool Hero is. 
 
Hand the BBB to your brother, sister, mother, etc. Tell them that it is 
really fun.  Then look at their faces and you'll see what I mean. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:50:22 -0400 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Inter-plug-in balance 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 09:29 PM 5/19/98 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote: 
>On Tuesday, May 19, 1998 4:10 PM, Bob Greenwade 
>>    (Personally, I'd prefer just taking Bruce Harlick's Heroic Vehicles 
>> Plug-In and using as a basis for completely adapting the Hero Vehicles 
>> rules, with modifications from TUSV.  But then, that's just me.) 
> 
>Downloaded it but haven't had a chance to read it. 
 
What is/where is this? 
 
  Joe 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Inter-plug-in balance 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 19 May 1998 21:51:52 -0400 
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Goode, Jason writes: 
 
> Yes to the inter-plug-in balance thing.  It works out that buying a BFG 
> in the Mekton Plug-in and buying a BFG in the Superpowers Plug-in have 
> slightly different costs. 
 
That is a point that I was (poorly) trying to make. 
 
> Personally, I fell that the plug-ins presented in the book were put 
> together too quickly, but then that could just be my Hero training 
> talking.  They are internally consistent, but slightly inconsistent with 
> each other. 
 
And that leads to the aforementioned problems under the aforementioned 
conditions.  You cannot take a "by the book" something from one instance of 
Fuzion and just drop it into another instance like you can with Hero. 
 
> Christian Conkle smacked us all in the head and said the solution is 
> pretty simple when you keep the design philosophy in mind.  When a GM 
> sits down to design a campaign, one of the things that he does is decide 
> what plug-ins best suit the flavor of his campaign. 
 
Given the premise of a Dream Park type of campaign, this approach will 
favor certain characters over others.  To me, that is singularly unfair to 
everyone involved in the game. 
 
[...] 
 
> Of course, I have been told that the mecha in BGC where built with Mekton 
> Zeta+ and then converted over. 
 
Yeah, I have seen that claim.  Too much appears to have been fudged for me 
to believe it. 
 
> The feeling I get is that the plug-ins presented in the C:NM book 
> (Superpowers, Mekton, etc) are something to get you up and running until 
> they could do the full-blown plug-ins like the powers book and Mekton 
> Zeta+. 
 
And here we go again with GURPS Syndrome. :) 
 
> Personally, I use Jason A. Dour's Heroic Abilities Plug-in.  It brings 
> back the full functionality of Hero's power creation system and then 
> some. 
 
Why not just use Hero, then? 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Balance 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:58:48 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tuesday, May 19, 1998 5:41 PM, Stainless Steel Rat 
[SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net] wrote: 
>  
> Re-read the second to last sentence in the previous statement.  Hero needs 
> a competant GM.  Fuzion needs recalculation of characters in cases where 
> "averages" are inappropriate, in addition to a competant GM. 
>  
 
I've done cross-genre gaming in Fuzion.  Your statement is false.  No 
recalculation of a character is needed.  Thre are no "averages".  If a 
character is going into a campaign where a brand new stat such as Mana or 
something like that is used you need a method to figure out what the new 
stat should be for the character, just as you would with Hero.  "Averaging", 
i.e., assigning it the average of all related stats, is just one method that 
you might use, just as you would with Hero.  You can use another if you 
think it is appropriate, just as you would with Hero.  This does not require 
any recalculation of any sort. 
 
> The end. 
>  
 
It is now. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Balance 
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Goode, Jason writes: 
 
> If a character is going into a campaign where a brand new stat such as 
> Mana or something like that is used you need a method to figure out what 
> the new stat should be for the character, 
 
Call it what you will, no matter how simple it is, you have to do some math 
to make the character fit.  Recalculation. 
 
> just as you would with Hero. 
 
No, there are no campaign-specific characteristics in Hero.  Therefore 
this particular problem does not exist. 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Inter-plug-in balance 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:26:12 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tuesday, May 19, 1998 9:52 PM, Stainless Steel Rat 
[SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net] wrote: 
> > Personally, I use Jason A. Dour's Heroic Abilities Plug-in.  It brings 
> > back the full functionality of Hero's power creation system and then 
> > some. 
>  
> Why not just use Hero, then? 
>  
 
Two reasons: 
 
1) Because I want to give Fuzion a good, thorough run before I make my final 
decision on it, but I don't want to lose the ability to generate any power I 
can think of. 
 
2) Because my Fuzion group (I also play in a Hero game too) is composed of 
one veteran Hero guy(who also wanted to see what all the fuss was about), 
one guy who is fairly new to Hero and still stumbles over Hero's resolution 
system(s), and 3 hardcore palladium veterans I'm trying to convert, all of 
whom balked at the complexity of Hero's rules.  Fuzion offers a simpler (but 
just as good) resolution system that works the same whether its combat or 
skill rolls. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Hey Bruce H! 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:28:53 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tuesday, May 19, 1998 9:50 PM, Joe Mucchiello [SMTP:why@superlink.net] 
wrote: 
> At 09:29 PM 5/19/98 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote: 
> >On Tuesday, May 19, 1998 4:10 PM, Bob Greenwade 
> >>    (Personally, I'd prefer just taking Bruce Harlick's Heroic Vehicles 
> >> Plug-In and using as a basis for completely adapting the Hero Vehicles 
> >> rules, with modifications from TUSV.  But then, that's just me.) 
> > 
> >Downloaded it but haven't had a chance to read it. 
>  
> What is/where is this? 
>  
>   Joe 
 
A quick scan of my hard drive indicated that I printed it right off the page 
without saving it to disk.  Can you give this fellow a URL? 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Balance 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:51:36 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tuesday, May 19, 1998 10:17 PM, Stainless Steel Rat 
[SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net] wrote: 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> Goode, Jason writes: 
>  
> > If a character is going into a campaign where a brand new stat such as 
> > Mana or something like that is used you need a method to figure out what 
> > the new stat should be for the character, 
>  
> Call it what you will, no matter how simple it is, you have to do some 
math 
> to make the character fit.  Recalculation. 
>  
 
No recalculation.  You are laboring under a misconception.  See below. 
 
> > just as you would with Hero. 
>  
> No, there are no campaign-specific characteristics in Hero.  Therefore 
> this particular problem does not exist. 
>  
 
Not in Hero and not in Fuzion.  However, as someone pointed out earlier, 
many GMs have created new stats for their own campaigns.  Mana, Chi, etc. 
If I bring a pre-existing normal, standard Hero character, into this 
person's campaign, he doesn't have the stat.  If I want him to have the 
stat, need some way of giving him the stat.  This is what Bruce was talking 
about.  Averaging similar stats was just one possible method for giving him 
the stat.  It doesn't matter if you are using Fuzion or Hero or whatever, 
it's the same situation.  
 
Jason Goode 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:01:42 -0700 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Forgotten Heroes 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 43 
 
Robert A. West wrote: 
>  
> Dale Ward wrote: 
> > 
> >      How about Tobor, The Eighth Man?  A private investigator who gets himself 
> > beaten to the point of death by gangsters, picked up off the side of the road 
> > by a mad scientist who transplants his consciousness into an android body. 
>  
> Haven't seen this one since Johnson was President, but IIRC . . . 
>  
> Cue music: strong two-note bass "monster march"; vocals unison. 
>  
>         There's a prehistoric monster, 
>         Who came from outer space, 
>         Created by the Martian's, 
>         To destroy the human race! 
>         The FBI is helpless: 
>         It's twenty stories tall! 
>         What can we do? 
>         Who can we call? 
>  
> Tempo Change: da-DUM, followed by up-tempo, vocals divisi, crescendo. 
>         Call Tobor, the Eighth Man! 
>         Call Tobor, the Eighth Man! 
>         Faster than a rocket, 
>         Quicker than a jet, 
>         He's the mighty robot, 
>         He's the one to get! 
>         Call Tobor, the Eighth Man! 
>         Quick! Call Tobor, 
>         The mightiest robot of all! 
>  
> Climax, then decrescendo segue to storyline background. 
>  
> >      I especially liked that he could recharge his internal power supply by 
> > smoking his "special cigarettes"... talk about a role model for the kiddies!  :> 
>  
> Lessee...Shapechange to any humanoid form, full phase.  As I recall, the 
> change began midline and propagated bilaterally. 
>  
> The "cigarettes" were a temporary boost to his atomic powerplant, which 
> required periodic refuelling: perhaps an AID to an END Reserve that 
> recharges only under specific circumstances.  It was also a good idea for 
> Tobor (the human form) not to be seen smoking on the street, as this was 
> still considered somewhat disreputable, and he was at some pains to keep 
> the atomic cigarettes from being smoked by others: nasty side-effect. 
>  
> It may be that the cigarette idea was conceived innocently by a 
> scriptwriter, or there may have been tobacco company influence.  This 
> was, after all, the era of Candy Cigarettes. 
>  
> It was also odd, fewer than 25 years after Pearl Harbor, to see signs 
> lettered in Kanji in a city that was ostensibly U.S. 
>  
> ----------------------------------- 
>  
> Others I remember from the era: forgive me if these have been mentioned 
> in earlier incarnations of this thread. 
>  
> Gigantor: a giant robot controlled from a control box with two levers 
> owned by a small boy. 
>  
> Prince Planet: his power came from his home world and was stored in a 
> medallion whose reserves showed by the portion of the "P" that was 
> colored in: and was hence visible to villains.  Clever, huh?  Of course, 
> sending him more energy required pulling a lever back on his planet, 
> and the keepers were always forgetting to pull it, so his reserves ran 
> low in almost every episode. 
 
	Gods, I remember that.  I used to watch that all the time when I was about 4  
or 5 and had great fun running around the house playing him. 
 
	There was another one from about the same time where three (?) aliens took on  
the form of a horse, a rabbit and something else to protect and help a young kid for  
some reason.  The things they came up with. 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Inter-plug-in balance 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 19 May 1998 23:07:24 -0400 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Goode, Jason writes: 
 
> one guy who is fairly new to Hero and still stumbles over Hero's resolution 
> system(s), and 3 hardcore palladium veterans I'm trying to convert, all of 
> whom balked at the complexity of Hero's rules. 
 
I find these last two to be most amusing.  From what I have seen, which is 
now three or four "Fuzion Powered" products, Fuzion is slightly more 
complex than Hero when it comes to conflict resolution.  Yes, Hero 
frequently involves more dice, especially for damage in superheroic-level 
games, but most of the math is basic addition and subtraction, with most of 
the numbers worked out beforehand. 
 
As for Palladium, I play Palladium Fantasy.  Anyone that can handle 
Palladium should welcome the relative simplicity of Hero. 
 
> Fuzion offers a simpler (but just as good) resolution system that works 
> the same whether its combat or skill rolls. 
 
Hero uses the same resolution system for skills or combat: roll equal or 
less than a number of 3d6 to succeed.  If combat, roll the damage dice and 
subtract applicable defenses. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Balance 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 19 May 1998 23:10:21 -0400 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Goode, Jason writes: 
 
>> No, there are no campaign-specific characteristics in Hero.  Therefore 
>> this particular problem does not exist. 
 
> Not in Hero and not in Fuzion.  However, as someone pointed out earlier, 
> many GMs have created new stats for their own campaigns. 
 
Stats specific to a campaign.  Like I said. 
 
> Mana, Chi, etc.  If I bring a pre-existing normal, standard Hero 
> character, into this person's campaign, he doesn't have the stat.  If I 
> want him to have the stat, need some way of giving him the stat. 
 
Post-creation math.  Like I said. 
 
> This is what Bruce was talking about.  Averaging similar stats was just 
> one possible method for giving him the stat.  It doesn't matter if you 
> are using Fuzion or Hero or whatever, it's the same situation. 
 
Hero does not have campaign-specific characteristics, therefore there is no 
need to figure out how to give a character a campaign-specific 
characteristic.  Like I said. 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 23:14:18 -0400 
From: boaters <boaters@mindspring.com> 
To: champs mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: robot 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
James Jandebeur wrote: 
 
> boaters wrote: 
> 
> > I was able to find the incomplete characters article thanks to the list.  I 
> > think that it is definitely a different approach.  However, it seems that 
> > due to the gm the robot character will now be way to many points.  Oh Well. 
> 
> I just wanted to clarify for my poor addled mind:  the GM of the game you 
> wanted the character for, correct? 
> 
 
Yes, he changed the amount of points for the campaign right before we started. 
Doh!!! 
 
Darin 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:14:23 -0500 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>>Factoid 1: Players and GMs will frequently use their own homegrown settings. 
> 
>   Not to mention their own homegrown rules.  In fact, many of the GMs I've 
>seen who use homegrown settings also use rules options that are so far 
>removed from the "standard" rule system as to be at least as incompatible 
>as BGC vs C:TNM. 
 
As is so often said around here, YMMV.  It's been my experience that change 
of setting involves much larger and more sweeping changes than the addition 
of house rules.  A change of venue can involve switching planets, a new 
timeline with anywhere from decades to millenia of campaign-setting 
history, etc.  Some campaigns I've been in did have a lot of house rules, 
but they tended toward "Everyone gets 25 free points worth of equipment" 
and "All magic spells must take this set of Limitations".  Nothing that 
would make it hard to tell what the core system being played was.  You've 
evidently been in some campaigns where the house rule painters use bigger 
brushes. 
 
>>Factoid 2: Very frequently, RPG "setting" books are sufficiently generic 
>>they can be dropped into any of several game systems with no alteration. 
> 
>   With no alteration of the setting itself, yes.  But with no alteration 
>of the character and item statistics? 
 
I concede this point.  I had been thinking in terms of the maps only, 
terrain features, major landmarks and so forth.  Adding in characters and 
items crosses a fine line from geographic sourcebook to campaign book 
complete with adventure hooks...but any setting book worth its salt *will* 
have those, so I should not have imagined a distinction. 
 
>   It's a bit of work, ain't it?  More work than playing straight from the 
>book, as one would be able to do with BGC or Bright Future. 
 
I can't speak for Ben's work with GURPS-Harn, but the Bureau 13 thing 
wasn't a lot of work.  The setting in this case was that of Nick Pollotta's 
book series, not much more to setting the stage than "You're all agents of 
Bureau 13.  You get big guns, magic items and lots of high-tech goodies to 
do your job.  Your job is to protect the world from supernatural evil, 
usually with a zany twist."  Ever since Will Smith and Tommy Lee Jones 
donned dark glasses, of course, I can just say "You're essentialy the MIBs, 
but you have a wider choice of wardrobe."  I did apply a house rule to give 
magic spells a standard set of Limitations, and we added a Piety stat; 
otherwise it was a straight Hero system campaign.  TriTac Games has a 
Bureau 13 RPG of their own, based on those same books.  So while I *could* 
have said, "I'm running a campaign based on the Bureau 13 books, it just 
uses Hero rules" it might have confused people who thought I was going to 
be using the TriTac game, and adapting the rules to make it comparable to 
Hero. 
 
>   Interesting; I've always considered the setting to define the campaign 
>more than the game system.  In your example, I wouldn't think of it as 
>dropping the Bureau 13 setting into the Hero mechanics, but the Hero 
>mechanics into the Bureau 13 setting.  I'd be saying "It's a Bureau 13 
>campaign with the Hero rules" (no apology for not using the packaged system). 
>   Similarly, when the time comes around to playtest Chaos Theory, I'd be 
>saying, "It's a comedic 'dark conspiracy' campaign using the Hero Game 
>system."  (And I don't think I'd want to try it with Fuzion; I think HGS 
>would be most likely to give it the proper "feel.") 
 
Not being familiar with Chaos Theory, I cannot address that one directly. 
Funny, "it's a Bureau 13 campaign with Hero rules" doesn't sound at all odd 
when you say it.  I guess I'm just used to hearing the other way, though, 
and that's how I automatically describe the games I'm in.  Right now I'm in 
an AD&D game set in the Forgotten Realms, a GURPS game set on Harnworld, 
just starting an actual Harn game in a different part of Harnworld (and I 
see why Ben didn't want to use the rules, I think), and a Star Hero game in 
my own homegrown setting.  Let's see... 
 
...a fantasy adventure game using AD&D rules.  Seems redundant somehow, but 
okay. 
...a Harnworld colonization adventure using GURPS rules.  Okay there. 
...a space adventure game using Hero rules.  Yep, that works, too. 
 
Damon 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:18:16 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Dale Ward <daleaward@rocketmail.com> 
Subject: Re: Forgotten Heroes 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Greetings, 
 
---Mark Lemming  wrote: 
> 
> Was it Marine boy that had the aqua gum? 
>  
     Actually, I believe it was Oxy-Gum... but, Marine Boy is correct. 
 
     As I recall, he also had a boomerang that worked underwater and he had a 
dolphin sidekick. 
     Geez, I haven't thought of him in more years than I care to acknowledge. 
 
     How about Astro-Boy... with the weird haircut? 
 
Dale A. Ward 
[Did Somebody Say BLOW UP McDonald's?] 
 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: The Incredible Shrinking Hero 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:41:13 -0500 
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>I really like the idea of FTL travel through phone lines ... I too have 
seen 
>the Atom do this and wondered how to simulate it in Champions, but Teleport 
>seemed too clunky. 
> 
>Thanks for the suggestions, 
>Patrick Sweeney 
 
 
This is not officially allowed but Desolidification and FTL have been used 
in 
Hero supplements before to allow FTL within the atmosphere.  In my game we 
use this to achieve long-range teleportation.  50 points to get just about 
anywhere globally really quick.  Definitely a stop sign combination. 
 
Alan 
 
 
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Combat delays. H4 only. (Long) 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:41:22 -0500 
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I have been following the recent "Hero is better, no Fuzion" is better 
slugfest.  I have no interest in switching game systems.  I play H4.  I will 
probably play H5.  But not if I have to rewrite a lot of characters and 
villains and buy a lot of supplements just to get started.  Change is not 
bad, but a lot of extra work for a possibility of a small gain is bad.  All 
this talk about the combat improvements and easier math have got me 
thinking.  The main and at the moment only game I play in has very drawn out 
combat.  I am curious as to just what it is that slows down Champions 
combat.  I have heard it is the complicated math.  But I don't believe it. 
The GM can do all of the math or other players can help the numerically 
challenged players.  Or for that matter, simply rent or borrow a properly 
trained chimp to crunch the numbers.  :)  When I first started playing I 
decided that it was that you spent a lot of time rolling dice and counting 
them but if your opponent had defenses higher than your total you wasted 
that time.  In AD&D you rolled one die and if you hit you did damage if you 
didn't hit you didn't do damage.  No wasted die rolling.  I don't believe 
that any longer. 
 
What I want to ask the list is:  Just what slows down combat in your H4 
games, that you wish would go away? 
 
Is it truly stumbling over difficult math? 
 
Is it the complexity of applying all the modifiers to the attack rolls? 
 
Is it arguing over ambiguous rules? 
 
I'll start.  In my game we have a problem with players being ready to do 
their turn.  One is an idiot, a nice guy but not the sharpest tack in the 
box.  He can't even decide what he is going to do.  He has been playing for 
over ten years and still can't roll damage on a killing attack properly. 
One is repeatedly asking questions that his characters couldn't possibly 
know.  And will spend time arguing that his character is an expert and would 
be able to know the information.  The most ridiculous example is asking 
"Just what type of concrete did Grond just throw at me?"  Both of these 
players are terribly difficult to have combat with, but the idiot is a nice 
guy and we can't tell him to go away.  At least while he is at the game, he 
isn't walking around downtown with money hanging out of his pockets asking 
for directions and saying that nobody knows where he is.  The other is a 
very good role player and we forgive him because of this.  Every other 
problem boils down to lack of player preparation for their turn.  Which 
causes their turns to drag on which encourages side conversations which 
results in players being unprepared for their turn.  I am extremely guilty 
of the side conversations but when I try I can be prepared and state my 
intentions, spout off a soliloquy, and begin rolling dice and adding up 
effect immediately and my turn passes very quickly.  I have even gone so far 
as to preroll my dice and be able to finish my turn in under fifteen 
seconds.  It took the GM longer to record the effects than it did for me to 
finish my part.  Not bragging, I couldn't have done it without my fellow 
players giving me sufficient time to prepare.  ]:-) 
 
Does your mileage vary?  If you haven't thought about this?  Why not pay 
attention to this detail at your next combat and see what you can notice? 
Time individual players to see if there is a trend?  What about the GM? Is 
s/he prepared?  Does s/he spend time fiddling or does the action flow 
smoothly? 
 
Please don't let this further fuel the Hero/Fuzion argument.  Pretty please. 
Fuzion couldn't possibly help this problem in my game.  It is definitely not 
the system but the players.  If you can't figure out/remember how to roll a 
killing attack after ten years, you either just don't care enough to try to 
learn or your dice bag isn't tied very tight. 
 
 
Alan 
 
 
 
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Climbing (was Re: Champions artists) 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:41:24 -0500 
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>But *THIS* instance of the power *DOES* duplicate the skill. 
> 
 
 
 
*NO*  Clinging allows movement along nearly any surface.  Resistance to 
Knockback.  Walking along ceilings.  .....  Resemble but not duplicate. 
 
Alan 
 
 
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Balance 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:52:13 -0500 
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>Not in Hero and not in Fuzion.  However, as someone pointed out earlier, 
>many GMs have created new stats for their own campaigns.  Mana, Chi, etc. 
>If I bring a pre-existing normal, standard Hero character, into this 
>person's campaign, he doesn't have the stat.  If I want him to have the 
>stat, need some way of giving him the stat.  This is what Bruce was talking 
>about.  Averaging similar stats was just one possible method for giving him 
>the stat.  It doesn't matter if you are using Fuzion or Hero or whatever, 
>it's the same situation. 
> 
>Jason Goode 
> 
 
I don't think it is fair to compare systems based on the house rules of a 
few.  If you insist in comparing systems stick to the systems, not 
unofficial modifications. 
 
Alan 
 
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Player Skills Census (was GAZZA's Analysis of the Champions List) 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:54:15 -0500 
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>Thai fighters and black belts, in a martial arts game. 
>nuff said? 
 
 
Just what is so bad about spicy oriental fighters and black belts being in 
the same game.  Regardless, you feel like playing again in a few hours. 
BWWWAAAAHHHHAAAHHHAAAHHHAA 
 
 
 
Alan 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Inter-plug-in balance 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 23:54:42 -0400 
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On Tuesday, May 19, 1998 11:07 PM, Stainless Steel Rat 
[SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net] wrote: 
>  
> I find these last two to be most amusing.  From what I have seen, which is 
> now three or four "Fuzion Powered" products, Fuzion is slightly more 
> complex than Hero when it comes to conflict resolution.   
 
Your opinion.  Fuzion seems simpler to me. 
 
>  
> As for Palladium, I play Palladium Fantasy.  Anyone that can handle 
> Palladium should welcome the relative simplicity of Hero. 
 
Can't speak to Palladium Fantasy, but Rifts & HU seem simpler than Hero to 
me. 
 
>  
> > Fuzion offers a simpler (but just as good) resolution system that works 
> > the same whether its combat or skill rolls. 
>  
> Hero uses the same resolution system for skills or combat: roll equal or 
> less than a number of 3d6 to succeed.  If combat, roll the damage dice and 
> subtract applicable defenses. 
 
Skills: Roll dice and compare. 
Combat:  Roll dice, add OCV, sub DCV and compare. 
A difference that is slight and insignificant to you, but it's confusing to 
these guys. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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From: "Matt Korth" <korthmat@cps.msu.edu> 
Organization: United Appeal for the Dead 
To: hero-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 01:09:00 -0400 
Subject: Re: Combat delays. H4 only. (Long) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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> Is it truly stumbling over difficult math? 
 
One would hope not... basic arithmetic is all that's required, and I (and  
hopefully everyone else on the Hero list) learned *that* in elementary  
school. 
 
> Is it the complexity of applying all the modifiers to the attack rolls? 
 
No. 
  
> Is it arguing over ambiguous rules? 
 
Possibly, though a good GM can get around this by making a temporary  
ruling to keep the combat going. 
 
> I'll start.  In my game we have a problem with players being ready to do 
> their turn.  One is an idiot, a nice guy but not the sharpest tack in the 
> box.  He can't even decide what he is going to do.  He has been playing 
> for over ten years and still can't roll damage on a killing attack 
> properly. One is repeatedly asking questions that his characters couldn't 
> possibly know.  And will spend time arguing that his character is an 
> expert and would be able to know the information.  The most ridiculous 
> example is asking "Just what type of concrete did Grond just throw at 
> me?" 
 
"The kind that just hit you in the face while you were trying to analyze  
it.  You take..." 
 
>  Both of these players are terribly difficult to have combat with, 
> but the idiot is a nice guy and we can't tell him to go away.  At least 
> while he is at the game, he isn't walking around downtown with money 
> hanging out of his pockets asking for directions and saying that nobody 
> knows where he is.  The other is a very good role player and we forgive 
> him because of this.  Every other problem boils down to lack of player 
> preparation for their turn.  Which causes their turns to drag on which 
> encourages side conversations which results in players being unprepared 
> for their turn.  I am extremely guilty of the side conversations but when 
> I try I can be prepared and state my intentions, spout off a soliloquy, 
> and begin rolling dice and adding up effect immediately and my turn 
> passes very quickly.  I have even gone so far as to preroll my dice and 
> be able to finish my turn in under fifteen seconds.  It took the GM 
> longer to record the effects than it did for me to finish my part.  Not 
> bragging, I couldn't have done it without my fellow players giving me 
> sufficient time to prepare.  ]:-) 
 
The GM for a Star Wars RPG I was in used this, and it kept combat moving  
along nicely.  Players have X amount of time to decide what they're going  
to do when their turn comes up.  If they haven't decided what they're  
going to do, then their character just stands there and takes a recovery  
that Phase.  Suggest it to your GM. 
 
> Does your mileage vary?  If you haven't thought about this?  Why not pay 
> attention to this detail at your next combat and see what you can notice? 
> Time individual players to see if there is a trend?  What about the GM? 
> Is s/he prepared?  Does s/he spend time fiddling or does the action flow 
> smoothly? 
>  
> Please don't let this further fuel the Hero/Fuzion argument. 
 
AMEN!  This isn't the place for Fuzion advocacy, and Hero advocacy should  
be unnecessary (it is, after all, the Hero system list--we all think it's  
great, or we wouldn't be here!). 
 
--M, who is glad he has procmail to filter out the H4/Fuzion argument... 
-- 
korthmat@cps.msu.edu  http://www.cps.msu.edu/~korthmat 
*** People who send me UCE/UBE will be crucified. *** 
"_Troops_ is filmed on location with the men of the Imperial Forces. 
All suspects are guilty--period.  Otherwise, they wouldn't be suspect, 
would they?"  --Kevin Rubio's _Troops_ 
 
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From: JJP3337 <JJP3337@aol.com> 
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 01:29:44 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: HSR vs. Fuzion 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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I owned both systems up until a month or so ago, and then sold my fuzion to a 
freind...I just didn't like it. I don't know whether it was the change in the 
settings tone ( the heros I had seen for years dead or unrecognizable) or the 
sheer task of trying to warm up to a whole new system, with new calculations. 
My players also wanted to continue with their old characters...call them 
sentimental...and no offense to those out there who do this ...but converting 
characters from one system to the other is a pain...especially when the 
changes seem to effect the way the charactes powers work..or their 
effectiveness( and note I say seem I know they really don't but tell that to 
eight angry players) . Fuzion is a fine system if thats what you start and 
learn with...but if you have played Hero for years, its like an old of 
jeans...the holes aren't always comfy in the winter, but with some patching 
they are a relaxing part of your weekend...I guess the point I'm trying to 
make is that both systems are excellent products and that each has flaws and 
advantages...just  enjoy the one you want to..or both.. to much time is being 
spent on fighting with each other over which system is better and a point is 
being missed...No system is really better than another...its the players and 
the campaign maker that create the difference...Play the one you like and 
leave the other guy alone, you can both be right ya know... 
 
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X-Sender: lizard@dnai.com 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 23:03:27 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 11:17 PM 5/19/98 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
>Lizard wrote: 
>>  
>> >Without attention from someone with Paramedic skill or a BODY Aid.  I 
>> >have never seen a group of more than two PCs who lacked both. 
>> > 
>> Actually, in both the campaign I run and the campaign I play in, I don't 
>> think ANY character has EITHER. We play very 4-color, so killing attacks 
>> and lethal body damage are very rare. 
> 
>Then you must have deleted Paramedic from your Everyman list. 
 
Actually, I take that back -- every PC in my campaign does have Paramedic, 
as its part of their training. It's just never come into play yet. 
 
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 23:05:22 -0700 
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> From: Kim Foster 
> 
> 
> Minor Fuzion Nitpick:I didn't like that leaping distance was split from 
> strength. 
> 
 
Really? I always thought it stupid that professional weightlifters in Hero could leap 
higher than skinny acrobats and track stars. 
 
Filksinger 
 
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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 23:17:27 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Lizard wrote: 
>  
> >Without attention from someone with Paramedic skill or a BODY Aid.  I 
> >have never seen a group of more than two PCs who lacked both. 
> > 
> Actually, in both the campaign I run and the campaign I play in, I don't 
> think ANY character has EITHER. We play very 4-color, so killing attacks 
> and lethal body damage are very rare. 
 
Then you must have deleted Paramedic from your Everyman list.  As for  
Aid, in every supers game I have ever seen, some regular character is one  
of the following: 
 
	The alien/future warrior with an Autodoc, 
	The Super-Physician, with his super-med-kit, 
	The Thaumaturgical Priest/Priestess with Supernatural Healing, 
	The Regenerator, who generally has Usable by Others at 0 DCV, 
	The Empath, with a Transfer any of own Characteristics to other. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: "Bob Greenwade" <bob.greenwade@klock.com&> 
        "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Vehicles and Acceleration 
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 00:01:55 -0700 
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> From: Bob Greenwade 
> 
> 
> At 11:01 PM 5/18/1998 -0700, Woodie wrote: 
><snip> 
> 
> >Gravity accelerates at 5" per segment, which is 0-60 in 2.7 seconds. Thus, 
> a vehicle with 
> >a SPD of 3 and Running of 20" can reach 60 MPH (97 KPH) in only 3 seconds. 
> > 
> >According to the BBB, a semi-truck can do 0-60 in 5.7 seconds, a Cadillac 
> Fleetwood can do 
> >0-60 in under 2.3 seconds, and a Porsche 928S can reach 60 MPH in 1.7 
> seconds. 
> > 
> >Sorry, but there's something here that doesn't add up. 
> 
>    Well, for one thing, Acceleration isn't relative to SPD; per the BBB 
> (page 142), it's relative to the amount of distance traveled.  Thus the 
> indeterminate vehicle you cite (SPD 3, Ground Move 20") would achieve 60 
> MPH (assuming your velocity conversion is accurate, and I have no reason to 
> believe otherwise) after 3" of movement -- in other words, within its 
> 4-second Phase. 
 
Yes and no. If you want to determine how fast someone is going after traveling a certain 
distance, but within a single phase, this is correct. However, if you want to determine 
how fast a character or vehicle is traveling after several phases, when said character has 
a high NCM, then you rate their acceleration as being equal to their combat velocity per 
phase (same page, second column, second paragraph, rather buried). 
 
Filksinger 
 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 10:05:39 +0100 
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Changing Disads (also alternatives to experience) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Doc Weird wrote: 
>  
>  
>         I allow my players to change Disads through gameplay, and sometimes 
> even demand it... 
>  
>         If they pick up a new Hunted, look at their other disads, do they 
> role-play that overconfidence a full 15  pts??    cut it to 10--- 5 even 
>  
>         maybe they have been rolling bad lately-- 1d6 unluck 
>  
>        a bad hit does body dam  -- dis features  ---scar 
>  
>          maybe they drop a # on that berzerk  dealing w/ it 
>  
>         maybe after a long time, they get more tolerant of that sus or vul 
>  
>        Basically what I'm trying to say (not as eloquently as others) is let 
> the character's growth in the story dictate what happens. If the player 
> doesn't play a disad well, work one in that he will.....or better, one that he 
> ALREADY IS playing. 
>  
>         And, most of all, work with the player to show him that this the 
> growth of the character, not a 'GM Fiat'. In the long run EVERYONE will be 
> happier with the game. 
>  
> ----------------------------DocWeird---The Eternal Newbie 
 
I also use this sort of technique, and it leads into what I wanted to 
say about the alternatives to experience thread. 
One technique I use is swapping disads; which is pretty well explained 
by the good Doctor above. One example I used was swapping a characters 
15pt overconfidnce for a 15pt paranoia after he got well kicked a few 
times. 
Another change I have done is balancing what the players gain from say, 
joining an organisation with a set of reputation and watched to balance 
it off. This way the character can advance and change without the need 
to store up a shed load of experience points. 
 
My final suggestion on this is the "Mystery Bank". When I am dealing out 
the experience, I hold back a few of the points (such as those that are 
granted for exceptional pieces of roleplaying or skilled playing) and 
put them in the mystery bank. The difference in the mystery bank is that 
I spend it on behalf of the players. This may seem like exercising too 
much control over the game; but the I do give a serious break to the 
characters in terms of how much I am willing to do with the points. On 
average very point which is put into the mystery bank is doubled. 
I spend the points in order to create new interesting plot twists for 
the players, which they will eventually benefit from. For example, the 
player mentalist who suddenly develops uncontrollable precognition, or 
the fire based character who starts to explode under pressure.... 
 
What do you think? 
 
--  
 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 10:05:39 +0100 
From: Chris Lynch <chris@lynch1.demon.co.uk> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Changing Disads (also alternatives to experience) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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Doc Weird wrote: 
>  
>  
>         I allow my players to change Disads through gameplay, and sometimes 
> even demand it... 
>  
>         If they pick up a new Hunted, look at their other disads, do they 
> role-play that overconfidence a full 15  pts??    cut it to 10--- 5 even 
>  
>         maybe they have been rolling bad lately-- 1d6 unluck 
>  
>        a bad hit does body dam  -- dis features  ---scar 
>  
>          maybe they drop a # on that berzerk  dealing w/ it 
>  
>         maybe after a long time, they get more tolerant of that sus or vul 
>  
>        Basically what I'm trying to say (not as eloquently as others) is let 
> the character's growth in the story dictate what happens. If the player 
> doesn't play a disad well, work one in that he will.....or better, one that he 
> ALREADY IS playing. 
>  
>         And, most of all, work with the player to show him that this the 
> growth of the character, not a 'GM Fiat'. In the long run EVERYONE will be 
> happier with the game. 
>  
> ----------------------------DocWeird---The Eternal Newbie 
 
I also use this sort of technique, and it leads into what I wanted to 
say about the alternatives to experience thread. 
One technique I use is swapping disads; which is pretty well explained 
by the good Doctor above. One example I used was swapping a characters 
15pt overconfidnce for a 15pt paranoia after he got well kicked a few 
times. 
Another change I have done is balancing what the players gain from say, 
joining an organisation with a set of reputation and watched to balance 
it off. This way the character can advance and change without the need 
to store up a shed load of experience points. 
 
My final suggestion on this is the "Mystery Bank". When I am dealing out 
the exper 
 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 07:33:42 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Tue, 19 May 1998, Robert A. West wrote: 
 
> > >Without attention from someone with Paramedic skill or a BODY Aid.  I 
> > >have never seen a group of more than two PCs who lacked both. 
> > > 
> > Actually, in both the campaign I run and the campaign I play in, I don't 
> > think ANY character has EITHER. We play very 4-color, so killing attacks 
> > and lethal body damage are very rare. 
  
> Then you must have deleted Paramedic from your Everyman list.  As for  
 
Yes, at an 8-.  And with the modifers imposed by negative Body, this 
becomes a risky proposition at best.   
 
I fondly remember the time that 8- came up with an '18'.  
 
> Aid, in every supers game I have ever seen, some regular character is one  
> of the following: 
  
> 	The alien/future warrior with an Autodoc, 
> 	The Super-Physician, with his super-med-kit, 
> 	The Thaumaturgical Priest/Priestess with Supernatural Healing, 
> 	The Regenerator, who generally has Usable by Others at 0 DCV, 
> 	The Empath, with a Transfer any of own Characteristics to other. 
 
I have never seen any of these in any supers game I was in. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 07:16:45 -0500 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: The Incredible Shrinking Hero 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 10:41 PM 5/19/98 -0500, Remnant wrote: 
>>I really like the idea of FTL travel through phone lines ... I too have 
>seen 
>>the Atom do this and wondered how to simulate it in Champions, but Teleport 
>>seemed too clunky. 
 
>This is not officially allowed but Desolidification and FTL have been used 
>in 
>Hero supplements before to allow FTL within the atmosphere.  In my game we 
>use this to achieve long-range teleportation.  50 points to get just about 
>anywhere globally really quick.  Definitely a stop sign combination. 
 
In this case, paying for the Desolidification shouldn't be necessary; he 
can only travel at FTL speed through the phone line.  There's no atmosphere 
inside the wire, plus by the time he's tiny enough to use that mode of 
travel, Desolid can be assumed as a special effect of the FTL Travel.   
 
Damon 
 
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Subject: Point Totals 
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 08:51:03 -0400 
x-sender: dfair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <dfair@sdslink.com> 
To: "Hero Games" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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An off-hand comment caught my eye and prompts me to ask the following: 
 
What point levels do you use in your current game and what genre is that  
game? Also, How many players are in said games? and how often do you play  
that game? 
 
For example, the games I am currently in: 
 
Current Game Genre            Points         # of Players     Sessions 
Galaxy Saving Heroes          800-1200            4         2/Month, 8-10  
hrs 
Super Agents                  200-275             9*        4/Month, 4-5  
hrs 
4-Color (Avengers-ish)        300-375             5         2/Month, 8-10  
hrs 
4-Color  
(Green Lantern Corp-ish)      475-525             5         1/Month,  
12-16 hrs 
 
* Yes that is alot - but they are never all there, more like 6 at the  
table for a given session 
 
This is just my idle curiosity, rearing it's head again.... 
 
David A. Fair         | 
SDS International     |     Think Different 
dfair@sdslink.com     | 
 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 06:15:37 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net 
To: <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Cc: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 11:05 PM 5/19/98 -0700, Filksinger wrote: 
>> From: Kim Foster 
>> 
>> 
>> Minor Fuzion Nitpick:I didn't like that leaping distance was split from 
>> strength. 
>> 
> 
>Really? I always thought it stupid that professional weightlifters in Hero 
could leap 
>higher than skinny acrobats and track stars. 
 
 
I designed wieghtlifter type characters as having strength only to lift 
based on skill PS:Wieghtliter or something.  It seems silly to me that 
without buying superleap, I (Str 2-3) jump the same distance as someone with 
Str 18. Its a matter of personal taste.  
I know violence doesn't solve all problems... 
	But it sure feels good! 
		Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior 
 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 07:52:08 -0600 
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Point Totals 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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David Fair wrote: 
>  
> An off-hand comment caught my eye and prompts me to ask the following: 
>  
> What point levels do you use in your current game and what genre is that 
> game? Also, How many players are in said games? and how often do you play 
> that game? 
>  
> For example, the games I am currently in: 
>  
> Current Game Genre            Points         # of Players     Sessions 
 
  Watchtower (JLA/Legionesqe)    400-500           4            see note 
 
  Tempest   (4color super)       400-450           4             " 
 
  Dagorwathi (FH- heroes of legend) 350+           4             " 
 
  Pentarchi (dim-hopping super)    425             3             " 
 
  Fearless monster hunters         250             4             " 
  (Horror hero with the PCs all being supernatural beings themselves 
 
  Dwarves in Space (star hero)     150             4             " 
 
The sessions are once a week, but we spend three/four months on one 
campaign, then shift to a different campaign to give the GM a rest. Of 
our 4 players 3 GM and the average experiance in the HERO system is 
about 7 years each. The last two campaigns are just starting, after we 
finish the current crossover epic we are doing in the supers campaigns. 
 
> This is just my idle curiosity, rearing it's head again.... 
 
--  
 
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages, 
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and 
goes through their pockets.    -- Eddy Peters 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Balance 
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 10:06:06 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Tuesday, May 19, 1998 11:52 PM, Remnant [SMTP:easleyap@mobis.com] wrote: 
>  
> I don't think it is fair to compare systems based on the house rules of a 
> few.  If you insist in comparing systems stick to the systems, not 
> unofficial modifications. 
>  
> Alan 
 
{sigh} 
I *am* only sticking to core systems.   
 
Is anyone else (besides Rat too) missing this? 
 
I can't believe that I am doing this bad a job of communicating on this 
topic.   
 
I am not trying to compare or convert.  I was only trying to correct a 
misconception. 
 
I've been trying for 48 hours to explain that there is no difference between 
Hero and Fuzion in this area and, apparently, I am still failing.  I give 
up. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 09:27:43 -0500 (CDT) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Combat delays. H4 only. (Long) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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>  
> What I want to ask the list is:  Just what slows down combat in your H4 
> games, that you wish would go away? 
>  
> Is it truly stumbling over difficult math? 
>  
> Is it the complexity of applying all the modifiers to the attack rolls? 
>  
> Is it arguing over ambiguous rules? 
>  
> I'll start.  In my game we have a problem with players being ready to do 
> their turn.  
 
Amen !  I'd say ths is the number one reason for our combat delays.  (Trying to  
run combats without a speed chart or the equivalent is even worse, but nobody's 
made that mistake in a long time.)  
 
The only really 'justifiable' delay IMO is because a player is not sure what's 
happening due to a lack of communication, NOT a lack of paying attention. 
 
Curt 
 
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X-Originating-IP: [167.20.17.110] 
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@hotmail.com> 
To: champs-l@sysabend.com 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 07:41:41 PDT 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>On Tue, 19 May 1998, Robert A. West wrote: 
>> Aid, in every supers game I have ever seen, some regular character is  
one  
>> of the following: 
>  
>> 	The alien/future warrior with an Autodoc, 
>> 	The Super-Physician, with his super-med-kit, 
>> 	The Thaumaturgical Priest/Priestess with Supernatural Healing, 
>> 	The Regenerator, who generally has Usable by Others at 0 DCV, 
>> 	The Empath, with a Transfer any of own Characteristics to other. 
> 
>I have never seen any of these in any supers game I was in. 
 
Aid is one of the most common powers taken in super-hero games in my  
neck of the woods, much to my chagrin; as often as not, it's capable of  
boosting several characteristics of several people at a time. 
 
______________________________________________________ 
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com 
 
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com&> "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Player Skills Census (was GAZZA's Analysis of the Champions List) 
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 01:33:13 +1000 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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oh har-de-har-har. look, now you amde me chase down every time i've written 
the word in case i spelt it wrong! *lol* 
 
---------- 
> From: Remnant <easleyap@mobis.com> 
> To: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
> Subject: Re: Player Skills Census (was GAZZA's Analysis of the Champions 
List) 
> Date: Wednesday, May 20, 1998 1:54 PM 
>  
> >Thai fighters and black belts, in a martial arts game. 
> >nuff said? 
>  
>  
> Just what is so bad about spicy oriental fighters and black belts being 
in 
> the same game.  Regardless, you feel like playing again in a few hours. 
> BWWWAAAAHHHHAAAHHHAAAHHHAA 
>  
>  
>  
> Alan 
>  
 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 08:37:03 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Points For Perks 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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GAZZA wrote: 
>  
> This leads into a side thread - how many of you charge points 
> for Perks? I charge for Bases, Vehicles, or Followers - but I've 
> never bothered requiring people to spend points for Contacts 
> or Favours, for example, or Passports and the like. 
 
Well, Passport is a legal right, so I don't charge for it unless the  
character wants a false one.  Most everything else I charge for. 
 
Contacts are like the inverse of hunteds: you don't pay for those you  
acquire during play, but you pay for any that you start out with, or to  
improve them beyond the base roll.  Contacts that are purchased with  
experience may be new contacts, or old ones that have never come up in  
play.  I have characters with fifteen points of contacts and favors, and  
they *use* them.  By the same token, I try to make make paid-for contacts  
worthwhile.  I occasionaly use them to provide the hook into adventures. 
 
Of course, everyone has some occasionally-useful 0-point contacts, just  
as everyone has a few occasionally-inconvenient 0-point Rivals and  
Hunteds: the old nemesis from High School, the Old Flame who still  
carries a torch, etc. 
 
I have had players take Deep Cover (a very useful perk) to provide  
themselves with alternate Secret IDs, or because they took Mystery ID.  I  
have a player who took Right to Marry, which I renamed Clergy, adding the  
right and duty of confidentiality and other aspects.  A couple have taken  
Wealth, which becomes much more useful when you take Purchase Pools,  
since the range of plausible purchases goes up. 
 
All-in-all, my players and I are fairly happy with the Perks. 
 
 
> Well, sure, if they have an appropriate back story. It can't be 
> abusive unless you let it be. The alternative is almost a punishment: 
>  
>    * Heroes save Mayor from the Flying Purple People Eater 
>    * Heroes have to spend some of their hard earned experience to 
>      purchase the Mayor as a Contact (or, at least, a Favour). 
>    * Heroes think twice about saving the President the next time: 
>      "Sorry, Mr Clinton, but I can't afford you as a Contact. Give my 
>      regards to oblivion." 
 
This occurred during play, so the favor is handed out by the GM as  
restricted bonus experience (i.e. for free).  What's the problem?  If the  
players decide that they also want the local Congressman as a Contact  
(because he is the same party as the Mayor), *that* they would have to  
pay for.  
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
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Subject: Re: Forgotten Heroes 
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 11:40:20 -0400 
x-sender: dfair@pop.worldweb.net 
From: David Fair <dfair@sdslink.com> 
To: "Hero Games" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 24 
 
>> 
>> Was it Marine boy that had the aqua gum? 
>>  
>     Actually, I believe it was Oxy-Gum... but, Marine Boy is correct. 
> 
>     As I recall, he also had a boomerang that worked underwater and he had a 
>dolphin sidekick. 
>     Geez, I haven't thought of him in more years than I care to acknowledge. 
 
Hey man, don't forget those boots; just click your heels and go as fast  
as a speedboat! 
 
David A. Fair         | 
SDS International     |     Think Different 
dfair@sdslink.com     | 
 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 08:41:21 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Call to cease and desist 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 35 
 
At 04:08 PM 5/19/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
>Subject: Call to cease and desist 
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
> 
>I'm the one who started the "Why stick with HSR?" thread, and now I'm 
>asking that it be dropped.  I should have known what I was starting...not 
>one soul has answered the question I posed, but instead we've gotten a lot 
>of tiresome argument that we've all heard before and which isn't ever going 
>to find closure.  The problem is that H4 gamers rush into a defensive mode, 
>while Fuzion gamers are too quick to go on the offensive, so it only fuels 
>itself further. 
   [The rest of a very sensible post snipped] 
 
   Perhaps a brief summary of the really salient points in the Hero 
System's favor might be helpful: 
 
   1. Familiarity.  You already know the Hero System; you'd have to learn 
Fuzion to play it.  It's true that there are a lot of similarities between 
the Hero System and Fuzion, and that Fuzion is relatively intuitive (read 
that as "easy to learn"), but there are enough differences that you'd still 
have to learn at least some parts of it. 
   2. Establishment.  Fuzion's been around for, what, a year and a half? 
The Hero System has nearly two decades of history, during which time 
players have given their feedback and helped form it into a system that 
many people can enjoy for many different purposes.  Fuzion is headed in 
that direction, to be sure, but it's still too young to have such a history. 
   3. Portability.  The same basic rules are used for every setting and 
every genre; only the applications change.  Fuzion plug-ins, though overall 
a strength of the system rather than a weakness, don't tend to port well 
from one setting to another.  Fuzion's dials and switches are an excellent 
idea for individual campaigns, but have the unfortunate side effect of 
inconsistency from one campaign to the next. 
   4. Taste.  You may just like certain mechanics in Hero better than you 
like the similar mechanics in Fuzion.  Of course, the reverse is true also, 
and one could easily adapt a mechanic in one system to the other, so really 
this goes back to #1 above. 
   5. Atmosphere.  A lot of folks (myself among them) are fans of both 
Fuzion and the Hero System.  For myself, I'll take whichever system seems 
to work best for the particular setting.  Hero is intricate, detailed, and 
wildly flexible within a single system; Fuzion (as it exists currently) is 
slightly less detailed and highly focused. 
 
   Any other arguments in this regard rely on comparative game mechanics 
and the like (which, of course, relates to #4 above). 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 08:50:46 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Balance 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 09:58 PM 5/19/1998 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote: 
>I've done cross-genre gaming in Fuzion.  Your statement is false.  No 
>recalculation of a character is needed.  Thre are no "averages".  If a 
>character is going into a campaign where a brand new stat such as Mana or 
>something like that is used you need a method to figure out what the new 
>stat should be for the character, just as you would with Hero.  "Averaging", 
>i.e., assigning it the average of all related stats, is just one method that 
>you might use, just as you would with Hero.  You can use another if you 
>think it is appropriate, just as you would with Hero.  This does not require 
>any recalculation of any sort. 
 
   Hold up... first you state that new calculations aren't needed when 
playing cross-genre in Fuzion, then you state that they are, and then you 
state again that they aren't.  Do you have to calculate genre-specific 
characteristics or not?  If not, what do you do when those characteristics 
are needed and the character doesn't have them? 
   Oh, and there are no genre-specific or setting-specific characteristics 
in the Hero System.  There are occasional campaign-specific characteristics 
or optional characteristics (like Mental Defense, Spirit Defense, Mana, 
Mana Recovery, etc.), but these are what they are -- campaign specific, or 
optional. 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 08:53:52 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Balance 
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At 11:10 PM 5/19/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>> This is what Bruce was talking about.  Averaging similar stats was just 
>> one possible method for giving him the stat.  It doesn't matter if you 
>> are using Fuzion or Hero or whatever, it's the same situation. 
> 
>Hero does not have campaign-specific characteristics, therefore there is no 
>need to figure out how to give a character a campaign-specific 
>characteristic.  Like I said. 
 
   At its base level, it is true that Hero doesn't have characteristics 
specific to published settings.  However, there *are* campaign-specific 
characteristics in Hero and just about every other game system.  In 
addition to a handful of published "optional characteristics" (like Mental 
Defense, Mana, and Mana Recovery), there are cases where a GM had devised a 
new characteristic (like Chi or Spirit Defense) for his particular setting. 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 08:57:32 -0700 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Superman (1938) 
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At 05:49 PM 5/19/1998 -0500, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote: 
>>> > 100+ Disadvantages 
>>> > 10 Not above using strong-arm tactics (C, M) 
>>>  
>>> How is _not_ being above such tactics a Disadvantage? 
>>  
>>It is a Psych Lim that defines how he acts.  A moderate Psych defines such 
>>things as course of action and targets.  His strong-arm stunts (like 
>>hauling a person around DC roof tops by his ankle) could backfire one 
>>day... what if the guy has a weak heart and suffers a heart atatck during 
>>Supe's interrogation? 
> 
>For anyone reluctant to accept that as a Psych Lim, the same behavior could 
>also be defined as a Reputation...except that a hero making his very first 
>appearance isn't likely to have a Rep yet. 
 
   Perhaps it could be reworded from "Not above using strongarm tactics" to 
"Tendency toward using strongarm tactics." 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 09:14:40 -0700 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Combat delays. H4 only. (Long) 
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At 10:41 PM 5/19/1998 -0500, Remnant wrote: 
>What I want to ask the list is:  Just what slows down combat in your H4 
>games, that you wish would go away? 
> 
>Is it truly stumbling over difficult math? 
> 
>Is it the complexity of applying all the modifiers to the attack rolls? 
> 
>Is it arguing over ambiguous rules? 
 
   I've found that very little time is taken up by these things -- at 
worst, probably 25% of wasted time is because of these, and probably more 
like 10%. 
   My problem (historically speaking) has always been the same as yours -- 
the players aren't prepared for their turn when it comes up.  Out of a 
group of 7 players, frequently only two (myself included) would be really 
paying attention to what's going on during a combat, while three would be 
discussing last week's Bushido game, one reading the rulebook, and one 
doing artwork for a different campaign.  When any of the last five are 
called upon, they typically have to start by asking, "Okay, so what's been 
going on?" 
   It may help to urge players to pay as much attention to combat as their 
characters would.  I've seen various solutions to this, including 
appointing a sargeant-at-arms to keep everyone focused, assigning time 
limits for deciding what the character does, or combat penalties for not 
paying attention.  (I lean toward a combination of the last, and/or 
experience point penalties on the grounds of poor role-playing.) 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 09:19:46 -0700 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Hey Bruce H! 
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At 10:28 PM 5/19/1998 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote: 
>On Tuesday, May 19, 1998 9:50 PM, Joe Mucchiello [SMTP:why@superlink.net] 
>wrote: 
>> At 09:29 PM 5/19/98 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote: 
>> >On Tuesday, May 19, 1998 4:10 PM, Bob Greenwade 
>> >>    (Personally, I'd prefer just taking Bruce Harlick's Heroic Vehicles 
>> >> Plug-In and using as a basis for completely adapting the Hero Vehicles 
>> >> rules, with modifications from TUSV.  But then, that's just me.) 
>> > 
>> >Downloaded it but haven't had a chance to read it. 
>>  
>> What is/where is this? 
> 
>A quick scan of my hard drive indicated that I printed it right off the page 
>without saving it to disk.  Can you give this fellow a URL? 
 
   I don't have the exact URL, but there should still be at least one 
version of it  (there were two) on Digital Hero at the Hero Games website. 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 09:29:08 -0700 
To: hero-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: The Incredible Shrinking Hero 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 11:32 AM 5/19/1998 EDT, Pat10355 wrote: 
>I should buy some more levels of shrinking to be the Ultimate Shrinker, but 
>I'm working with a budget of 250 pts. Your points about the gap between his 
>smallest size and the microverse are good, it's just that I can't afford to 
>close the gap any further. :) 
 
   That microverse travel may not be so useful early on in the game.  It 
might be better to move it to your "wish list" and get more Shrinking.  :-] 
 
>I really like the idea of FTL travel through phone lines ... I too have seen 
>the Atom do this and wondered how to simulate it in Champions, but Teleport 
>seemed too clunky. 
 
   Indeed, FTL Travel does need to be adjusted in Hero5 for things like 
this, "Men of Light," and similar SFX. 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 09:33:47 -0700 
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Vehicles and Acceleration 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 12:01 AM 5/20/1998 -0700, Filksinger wrote: 
>> From: Bob Greenwade 
>> At 11:01 PM 5/18/1998 -0700, Woodie wrote: 
>><snip> 
>> 
>> >Gravity accelerates at 5" per segment, which is 0-60 in 2.7 seconds. Thus, 
>> a vehicle with 
>> >a SPD of 3 and Running of 20" can reach 60 MPH (97 KPH) in only 3 seconds. 
>> > 
>> >According to the BBB, a semi-truck can do 0-60 in 5.7 seconds, a Cadillac 
>> Fleetwood can do 
>> >0-60 in under 2.3 seconds, and a Porsche 928S can reach 60 MPH in 1.7 
>> seconds. 
>> > 
>> >Sorry, but there's something here that doesn't add up. 
>> 
>>    Well, for one thing, Acceleration isn't relative to SPD; per the BBB 
>> (page 142), it's relative to the amount of distance traveled.  Thus the 
>> indeterminate vehicle you cite (SPD 3, Ground Move 20") would achieve 60 
>> MPH (assuming your velocity conversion is accurate, and I have no reason to 
>> believe otherwise) after 3" of movement -- in other words, within its 
>> 4-second Phase. 
> 
>Yes and no. If you want to determine how fast someone is going after 
traveling a certain 
>distance, but within a single phase, this is correct. However, if you want 
to determine 
>how fast a character or vehicle is traveling after several phases, when 
said character has 
>a high NCM, then you rate their acceleration as being equal to their 
combat velocity per 
>phase (same page, second column, second paragraph, rather buried). 
 
   Hey Steve Long! 
   Guess what -- we found something else that needs to be clarified in Hero5! 
   ;-] 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 09:34:30 -0700 
To: "Hero Games" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re: Point Totals 
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At 08:51 AM 5/20/98 -0400, David Fair wrote: 
>An off-hand comment caught my eye and prompts me to ask the following: 
> 
>What point levels do you use in your current game and what genre is that  
>game? Also, How many players are in said games? and how often do you play  
>that game? 
> 
The game I'm running (Silver Age LSH ripoff) is based on 200 points;the 
game I'm in (Four-color world+realistic characters) is around the 250-300 
point level. Both games have 6-7 players. 
 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 09:43:06 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Competitive Characters (was Why stick with HSR?) 
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At 12:16 PM 5/19/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Yes, you *can* put a 1950's G-Man and a 1990's superhero into a third 
>universe and have them be competative -- that is, one character will not 
>always outsihine the other.  No changes to the characters are necessary. 
>All it takes is a competant GM. 
 
   All anything in gaming takes is a competent GM; this, no more or less. 
 
>According to the Rule of X, the super and the G-Man cannot be competative. 
 
   Why is it so important for the super and the G-Man to be competitive? 
They can work together on an investigation involving low-level supers, and 
both can have plenty to do.  When it comes to fighting time, the G-Man can 
take on two of the baddies and the super can handle the other eight.  Or 
the super can fly into the middle of it and the G-Man can cover his back. 
   Batman occasionally fights side-by-side with Harvey Bullock (remember 
that my source here is the animated series).  Bullock is nowhere near 
Batman's league, but they can pull it off. 
   And I've seen this done in a game, too -- a player will *intentionally* 
design a character who's just barely powerful enough to fight supervillains 
so he can have some special ability or set of skills that can come in handy 
in a non-combat situation.  In fact, I'm one such player.  I guarantee you, 
with a competent GM (not even necessarily an outstanding one) and 
sufficient imagination, it is definitely *not* boring. 
 
>Right there I have a good reason to throw RoX out. 
 
   Why?  RoX, as I understand it, gives the *maximum* combat effectiveness 
for a character.  If the super falls within the given range, then the G-Man 
does as well; the G-Man just sacrificed some combat effectiveness for other 
things. 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 09:50:12 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
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At 02:42 PM 5/19/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>And while I mentioned switching characters from C:NM and BGC, I also 
>mentioned elsewhere that I expect the "challenges" of conversion to become 
>greater with the upcoming Mekton Zeta instance of Fuzion.  A version of 
>Robot Warriors updated for the 4th edition (perhaps as a subset of or 
>chapter in The Ultimate Vehicle?) would have fewer problems with 
>"conversion" since transposition between one Hero-based universe and 
>another usually does not require conversion (unless the GM has instituted 
>house rules for a particular universe). 
 
   Just as a side note (since you brought up The Ultimate *Super* Vehicle), 
I do have notes scattered throughout the chapter on Building Vehicles that 
should make conversion from the old Robot Warriors game into Fourth Edition 
(and, I hope, Fifth Edition) easier.  Mecha in RW are still quite a bit 
different from generic vehicles in Hero4, so it's still a bit of a pain, 
but in TUSV I try to narrow that gap, if only just a little. 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 09:53:52 -0700 
To: "'champ-l@sysabend.org'" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Why stick with HSR? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 01:58 PM 5/19/1998 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>On Mon, 18 May 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>>    What it really seems to boil down to, at least in my view, is whether 
>> you want a solid game system or a solid universe. 
> 
>Seems like an odd way of looking at it to me - IMO, choice of system and 
>choice of setting are almost completely seperate issues. (ie, if you 
>like Hero mechanics and the C:tNM setting, use Hero mechanics with the 
>C:tNM setting.) 
 
   Point taken; that makes three options.  (Four, if you count using the 
system you bloody well want to and create your own universe.  Although for 
that matter you almost might as well create your own game system as well; I 
did that once.) 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 10:02:38 -0700 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Chaos Theory (Was Why stick with HSR?) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 10:14 PM 5/19/1998 -0500, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote: 
>>   Similarly, when the time comes around to playtest Chaos Theory, I'd be 
>>saying, "It's a comedic 'dark conspiracy' campaign using the Hero Game 
>>system."  (And I don't think I'd want to try it with Fuzion; I think HGS 
>>would be most likely to give it the proper "feel.") 
> 
>Not being familiar with Chaos Theory, I cannot address that one directly. 
 
   Maybe you've missed my previous mentions of this.  It's an all-new 
campaign setting that I'm thinking of doing at some point in the next 
couple of years; I haven't decided whether Hero Plus or GRG (I'm leaning 
toward GRG on this one). 
   Imagine the MiB versus the White World universe, but dressed up like 
clowns who got their equipment from CONTROL.  (Done like a TV show produced 
by Tom Ruegger, and directed by the Zucker brothers.) 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Superman (1938) 
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Date: 20 May 1998 14:21:57 -0400 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Rick Holding writes: 
 
> 	But you would agree that if both slots have at least the minimum  
> required to activate the power, then both slots may be used in any order 
> at their allocated power levels? 
 
Of course, just as with any other Multipower.  I do not believe I ever said 
anything that could be construed as contrary to that.  Just remember that 
if you want to use both slots, the best you are going to get is two 
half-move actions, at whatever levels you have allocated the reserve. 
 
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--  
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Balance 
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Goode, Jason writes: 
 
> {sigh} 
> I *am* only sticking to core systems.   
 
No, Jason, you are not. 
 
Fuzion *SPECIFICALLY* has guidelines for dealing with addition or removal 
of stats for specific campaigns.  I even sent you the text straight out of 
the current on-line version of what passes for Fuzion's core rules. 
 
Hero *DOES NOT* have published guidelines for dealing with addition or 
removal of characteristics.  It never has. 
 
In other words, you are *NOT* sticking with core systems.  You are 
comparing a supposedly common house rule (Hero) with an officially 
published rule (Fuzion). 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Inter-plug-in balance 
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Goode, Jason writes: 
 
> Skills: Roll dice and compare. 
 
Hero: roll less than X on 3d6, where X is your skill level. 
 
> Combat:  Roll dice, add OCV, sub DCV and compare. 
 
Hero: roll less than X on 3d6, where X = 11 + Attacker's OCV - Target's DCV. 
 
> A difference that is slight and insignificant to you, but it's confusing 
> to these guys. 
 
The confusion is one that you introduced; it does not exist in the core 
Hero rules. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Climbing (was Re: Champions artists) 
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Remnant  writes: 
 
>> But *THIS* instance of the power *DOES* duplicate the skill. 
 
> *NO*  Clinging allows movement along nearly any surface. 
 
THE LIMITATIONS ON THIS INSTANCE OF CLINGING MAKE IT WORK JUST LIKE 
CLIMBING!!!!! 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
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Michael Surbrook writes: 
 
> Yes, at an 8-.  And with the modifers imposed by negative Body, this 
> becomes a risky proposition at best.   
 
> I fondly remember the time that 8- came up with an '18'.  
 
"Critical Failure" is a house rule.  Core Hero does not have such.  I 
personally dislike the idea of a "critical failure on 18" if only because 
even 1:216 occours more frequently than the "critical failures" it is 
intended to represent. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Why stick with HSR? 
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Filksinger  writes: 
 
> Really? I always thought it stupid that professional weightlifters in 
> Hero could leap higher than skinny acrobats and track stars. 
 
Realistically, leaping distance is a function of strength and an inverse 
function of body mass.  If you want something a bit more rational, add 10 
to the character's Strength, then figure out what he has left for "extra" 
Strength if he tried to lift something as massive as himself.  Use that 
"extra" to determine how far he can jump. 
 
In 4-color comics, superstrong characers *can* leap further than skinny 
acrobats and track stars. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Balance 
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Bob Greenwade writes: 
 
> In addition to a handful of published "optional characteristics" (like 
> Mental Defense, 
 
Mental Defense is a standard power. 
 
> Mana, and Mana Recovery), there are cases where a GM had devised a new 
> characteristic (like Chi or Spirit Defense) for his particular setting. 
 
Fine.  House rules that are not specifically supported by Hero's core 
rules. 
 
Optional stats are specifically supported by what passes for Fuzion's core 
rules. 
 
Not the same thing at all. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Combat delays. H4 only. (Long) 
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Bob Greenwade writes: 
 
> When any of the last five are called upon, they typically have to start 
> by asking, "Okay, so what's been going on?" 
 
I want to see something like this: 
 
GM: Joe, your turn. 
Joe: What has been going on?  Where is everyone? 
GM: Your character is daydreaming.  Bill, your turn. 
 
'Course, the GM should inform players that he is going to do that before 
the fight starts. :) 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Balance 
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:53:38 -0400 
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On Wednesday, May 20, 1998 11:51 AM, Bob Greenwade 
[SMTP:bob.greenwade@klock.com] wrote: 
> At 09:58 PM 5/19/1998 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote: 
> >I've done cross-genre gaming in Fuzion.  Your statement is false.  No 
> >recalculation of a character is needed.  Thre are no "averages".  If a 
> >character is going into a campaign where a brand new stat such as Mana or 
> >something like that is used you need a method to figure out what the new 
> >stat should be for the character, just as you would with Hero. 
"Averaging", 
> >i.e., assigning it the average of all related stats, is just one method 
that 
> >you might use, just as you would with Hero.  You can use another if you 
> >think it is appropriate, just as you would with Hero.  This does not 
require 
> >any recalculation of any sort. 
>  
>    Hold up... first you state that new calculations aren't needed when 
> playing cross-genre in Fuzion, then you state that they are, and then you 
> state again that they aren't.  Do you have to calculate genre-specific 
> characteristics or not?  If not, what do you do when those characteristics 
> are needed and the character doesn't have them? 
 
Sorry, terminology goof.  I meant cross-genre does not, but cross-campaign 
may due to any campaign-specific stats a GM may have created. 
 
>    Oh, and there are no genre-specific or setting-specific characteristics 
> in the Hero System.  There are occasional campaign-specific 
characteristics 
> or optional characteristics (like Mental Defense, Spirit Defense, Mana, 
> Mana Recovery, etc.), but these are what they are -- campaign specific, or 
> optional. 
> --- 
 
Same thing in Fuzion.  Only difference is that Fuzion includes a paragraph 
to officially recognize and sanction this as okay. 
 
> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
> Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Inter-plug-in balance 
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:07:55 -0400 
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On Wednesday, May 20, 1998 2:28 PM, Stainless Steel Rat 
[SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net] wrote: 
>  
> The confusion is one that you introduced; it does not exist in the core 
> Hero rules. 
 
No, not by me.  These guys took the core rules home and read them.  They 
came back confused.  I brought them to the Hero game where I am a player, as 
that was originally where I was trying to recruit them to.  They sat and 
watched for a while, then the GM let them play NPCs.  Afterwards they said 
that it was too complicated and confusing and they were going back to 
Palladium.  Good guys and fun to be with, I figured I'd try Fuzion, since it 
is (IMO) simpler.  They like it. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Inter-plug-in balance 
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Goode, Jason writes: 
 
>> The confusion is one that you introduced; it does not exist in the core 
>> Hero rules. 
 
> No, not by me.  These guys took the core rules home and read them. 
 
The math you posted is *NOT* in either the HSR or the BBB.  Attack rolls 
have always  been '11 + Attacker's OCV - Target's DCV' in Hero system 
rulebooks. 
 
Now, *some* GMs do some kick-ass algebra so that the players figure out 
what DCVs are hit, and that appears to be what you (or your GM) is doing. 
That is *NOT* in the rulebooks. 
 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:35:52 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
Reply-To: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Climbing (was Re: Champions artists) 
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On 20 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> Remnant  writes: 
>  
> >> But *THIS* instance of the power *DOES* duplicate the skill. 
>  
> > *NO*  Clinging allows movement along nearly any surface. 
>  
> THE LIMITATIONS ON THIS INSTANCE OF CLINGING MAKE IT WORK JUST LIKE 
> CLIMBING!!!!! 
 
So you are saying that by putting 'Requires a Skill Roll' on the Clinging 
power, you suddenly limit the Clinging power to only things that Climbing 
can do, and that it automatically gets the same penalties as a 'normal' 
climbign roll would under the same circumstances? If this is your 
viewpoint, then your logic certainly follows - however, I believe the 
viewpoint is in error.  
 
For a start, when Clinging is used as 'Super Climbing' in the Ninja Hero 
book, the limitation on the degree of slope that can be climbed is 
separate from the 'Requires Skill Roll' limitation.  Without this 
limitation, the Clinging RSR could be used to hang upside down from a 
ceiling - something that's basically impossible with normal climbing. 
This also sets the precedent that all the limitations that separate 
Climbing from Clinging must explicitly be placed on the power - RSR 
doesn't do it. 
 
In fact, assuming that RSR (Climbing) /does/ apply these limitations is 
rather unfair to the person who chooses to model his power this way.  
Compare two characters: Rock Climbing Boy (from the Legion, probably) and 
Bob the Mage.  Rock Climbing Boy can climb anything with his long fingers 
and prehensile toes, but has to be very careful about where he puts his 
hands and feet - he's got Clinging, RSR (Climbing).  Bob the Mage has the 
Spider Climb spell in his book - with the requisite RSR (Magic).  Both are 
trying to climb a rain-slick steel wall.  
 
RCB: OK, I'll climb the wall. 
GM: Well, it's a rain-slick steel wall, which is -8 to your Climbing 
    roll, in addition to the -1 penalty for Active Points. 
RCB: (rolls, fails, falls) Aauuugh-THUD. 
BtM: I'll cast my Spider Climb spell. 
GM: OK, roll - you're at a -1 because of the Active Points in the power. 
BtM: (rolls, succeeds, scuttles up the wall like a gecko on speed) Cool! 
 
Now, these characters have exactly the same power.  Why would Rock 
Climbing Boy be penalized more because he chose 'Climbing' as the skill 
for his RSR instead of 'Magic'?  Answer: He shouldn't.  The situational 
modifiers for Climbing skill should be applied when it's used as Climbing 
Skill, not when it's used as the skill roll for a power.  This is the only 
way to be fair between powers that require different Skill Rolls.  
 
Clinging, RSR (Climbing) does /not/ duplicate Climbing unless you put a 
host of other Limitations on it, including (but not limited to) slow 
upward travel, no knockback resistance, no overhangs of more than 85 
degrees, slick surfaces give penalties to skill roll, etc.  
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Climbing (was Re: Champions artists) 
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Sakura  writes: 
 
>> THE LIMITATIONS ON THIS INSTANCE OF CLINGING MAKE IT WORK JUST LIKE 
>> CLIMBING!!!!! 
 
> So you are saying that by putting 'Requires a Skill Roll' on the Clinging 
> power, 
 
No, I am saying that with the limitations (plural!) on it, the power 
duplicates Climbing.  At which point the Requires Skill Roll really means, 
"should have been purchased as a skill". 
 
Like I said in the first place. 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Inter-plug-in balance 
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 16:02:24 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Wednesday, May 20, 1998 3:25 PM, Stainless Steel Rat 
[SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net] wrote: 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> Goode, Jason writes: 
>  
> >> The confusion is one that you introduced; it does not exist in the core 
> >> Hero rules. 
>  
> > No, not by me.  These guys took the core rules home and read them. 
>  
> The math you posted is *NOT* in either the HSR or the BBB.  Attack rolls 
> have always  been '11 + Attacker's OCV - Target's DCV' in Hero system 
> rulebooks. 
>  
 
Sorry.  Forgive me for typing fast stream of consciousness while tired. 
 
Regardless, they were still confused by what was in the core rules.  Doesn't 
confuse you and doesn't confuse me, but we aren't everyone. 
 
Jason Goode  
 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 13:34:56 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Balance 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 02:43 PM 5/20/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>Bob Greenwade writes: 
> 
>> In addition to a handful of published "optional characteristics" (like 
>> Mental Defense, 
> 
>Mental Defense is a standard power. 
 
   It can also optionally be used as a derived characteristic, per TUM (OK, 
we all know how you despise this book, but it is there as an optional rule). 
 
>> Mana, and Mana Recovery), there are cases where a GM had devised a new 
>> characteristic (like Chi or Spirit Defense) for his particular setting. 
> 
>Fine.  House rules that are not specifically supported by Hero's core 
>rules. 
> 
>Optional stats are specifically supported by what passes for Fuzion's core 
>rules. 
> 
>Not the same thing at all. 
 
   No argument there, other than the "what passes for" phrase. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 13:40:44 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Balance 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 02:53 PM 5/20/1998 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote: 
>>    Oh, and there are no genre-specific or setting-specific characteristics 
>> in the Hero System.  There are occasional campaign-specific 
>characteristics 
>> or optional characteristics (like Mental Defense, Spirit Defense, Mana, 
>> Mana Recovery, etc.), but these are what they are -- campaign specific, or 
>> optional. 
> 
>Same thing in Fuzion.  Only difference is that Fuzion includes a paragraph 
>to officially recognize and sanction this as okay. 
 
   Doesn't it go a little beyond that?  I thought each of the 
Fuzion-powered games already on the shelves had specific characteristics 
that others don't.  That seems to me like a little more than a paragraph. 
   As far as I can think of, every published campaign setting in Hero uses 
only the exact same eight Primary Characteristics and six Derived 
Characteristics. 
   (I'd go into this in more detail, but it's not really that strongly Hero 
related, and some of the folks are calling for an end to the discussion for 
that very reason.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Inter-plug-in balance 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Date: 20 May 1998 16:42:14 -0400 
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Goode, Jason writes: 
 
> Regardless, they were still confused by what was in the core rules. 
 
Confused by what? 
 
Hero's mechanics are just as consistant as Fuzions, arguably moreso.  If 
you or they have a specific instance of disagreement, present it. 
 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:01:17 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Inter-plug-in balance 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:24 PM 5/20/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>Goode, Jason writes: 
> 
>>> The confusion is one that you introduced; it does not exist in the core 
>>> Hero rules. 
> 
>> No, not by me.  These guys took the core rules home and read them. 
> 
>The math you posted is *NOT* in either the HSR or the BBB.  Attack rolls 
>have always  been '11 + Attacker's OCV - Target's DCV' in Hero system 
>rulebooks. 
 
   This is close enough to an exact quote of what's actually in the HSR 
("Attack Roll = 11 + Attacker's OCV - Defender's DCV" -- page 145) to be 
correct. 
 
>Now, *some* GMs do some kick-ass algebra so that the players figure out 
>what DCVs are hit, and that appears to be what you (or your GM) is doing. 
>That is *NOT* in the rulebooks. 
 
   I don't know that the algebra involved there is that tough.  All it is, 
is shuffling the formula around a little.  I could show the work, but 
basically all you have to do is replace "Attack Roll" with "Target DCV" 
(note the non-plural) and "Defender's DCV" with "Attack Roll".  If the 
Target DCV is the defender's DCV or more, then it's a hit. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 16:02:58 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Players who dont pay attention 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    My problem (historically speaking) has always been the same as yours -- 
> the players aren't prepared for their turn when it comes up.  Out of a 
> group of 7 players, frequently only two (myself included) would be really 
> paying attention to what's going on during a combat, while three would be 
> discussing last week's Bushido game, one reading the rulebook, and one 
> doing artwork for a different campaign.  When any of the last five are 
> called upon, they typically have to start by asking, "Okay, so what's 
> been going on?" 
 
This has got to be the most frustrating part of being a GM. You spend 
hours of your own time to prepare a game, not to mention go thru the 
work (and stress) of actually RUNNING the damn thing... 
 
and it never fails - you have a couple of players who would rather toss 
old movie quotes back and forth... or talk about old games... or work on 
new characters... ANYTHING but pay attention to what's going on. 
 
And, without fail, it's always these same players that you have to waste 
even MORE time on, to re-explain what's been going on. 
 
If they only did it in MY game, I'd be pretty insulted, or feel that I 
was a pretty crappy GM and couldn't hold their interest, but these same 
players do it in EVERY game they play in. 
 
 
So... what do you other GMs do to keep these players in check? 
 
 
Past methods I've used (not all of them pretty): 
 
* Stop the game, sit back in my chair and silently watch them until they 
noticed that the room had grown quiet and everyone was looking at them.  
At this point I would either continue the game, or tell them "Go ahead.  
It's obviously much more interesting than anything *I* have to say" 
 
* Remove them from the action.  In combat - lay their miniature down and 
stop asking them what they want to do on their actions.  Eventually 
they'll look up and ask "Is it my turn yet?".  To which I reply, "Nope, 
you got GMO'd quite awhile ago."  (the rest of the players usually seem 
to find this amusing for some reason).  Out of combat, they just werent 
there, or had wandered off to stare at something interesting on the 
wall.  If they ask a question about what happened, I just tell them - 
"You dont know, you werent there". 
 
* Stop gaming with them.  Not always a practical solution and can cause 
hard feelings... 
 
* Talk to them.  I've tried this and had mixed results.  Some people 
will realize that they are disrupting the game and straighten up.  
Others will tell you they'll cut it out, but go right back to it... 
 
 
Luckily my current group has eliminated the worst offenders.  Now if we 
could just find a schedule that works for all of us   :/ 
 
 
 
Todd 
 
 
 
--  
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 Todd Hanson                       Minnesota: Land of two seasons: 
 BadTodd@dacmail.net               winter is coming, winter is here. 
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Inter-plug-in balance 
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 17:25:26 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Wednesday, May 20, 1998 4:42 PM, Stainless Steel Rat 
[SMTP:ratinox@peorth.gweep.net] wrote: 
> Confused by what? 
>  
> Hero's mechanics are just as consistant as Fuzions, arguably moreso.  If 
> you or they have a specific instance of disagreement, present it. 
>  
 
I don't have a problem because I don't find them confusing.  I have stated 
several times that I like Hero and enjoy it. 
 
They (these potential converts) read them and played them and still found 
them confusing.  I guess its like the guy on the thread about H4 combat 
speed where a 10-yr Hero veteran still doesn't "get it".  Maybe 6-yrs of 1-2 
times per week of Palladium trained their minds to work one way and they 
couldn't adapt to Hero.  *shrug* 
 
Jason Goode  
 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:58:41 -0700 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:02 PM 5/20/1998 -0500, Todd Hanson wrote: 
>This has got to be the most frustrating part of being a GM. You spend 
>hours of your own time to prepare a game, not to mention go thru the 
>work (and stress) of actually RUNNING the damn thing... 
> 
>and it never fails - you have a couple of players who would rather toss 
>old movie quotes back and forth... or talk about old games... or work on 
>new characters... ANYTHING but pay attention to what's going on. 
> 
>And, without fail, it's always these same players that you have to waste 
>even MORE time on, to re-explain what's been going on. 
> 
>If they only did it in MY game, I'd be pretty insulted, or feel that I 
>was a pretty crappy GM and couldn't hold their interest, but these same 
>players do it in EVERY game they play in. 
> 
> 
>So... what do you other GMs do to keep these players in check? 
 
   [Several possibilities clipped] 
 
>* Talk to them.  I've tried this and had mixed results.  Some people 
>will realize that they are disrupting the game and straighten up.  
>Others will tell you they'll cut it out, but go right back to it... 
 
   This should generally be the first course of action. 
   For my upcoming (I hope) campaign, I'll be making sure everyone knows 
the ground rules, and that includes paying attention to the action. 
   I have three options for those who are just not paying attention; I'm 
not sure which I'll go with: 
 
   1) The character loses a half phase to assess what's going on. 
   2) The character gets -2 OCV and -2 DCV for that phase because he was 
daydreaming. 
   3) A penalty of -1 experience point is assessed for poor role-playing. 
 
   I'm leaning toward starting with the last, and if that doesn't work 
moving on to one of the other two. 
   If course, it's not always "out of character" to not be paying much 
attention to what's going on.  I was in a game once with pregenerated 
characters, one of whom was a type to keep to himself and not interact much 
with others.  For quite some time, that character's skills weren't called 
upon, and since he wasn't one to volunteer any ideas or information, the 
player stayed quiet and just watched what was going on.  (Note that, in 
other games, he was right in there just like everyone else -- not the best 
player overall, but not a problem player by any stretch of the imagination.) 
   Before long, I looked next to me, and noticed that the player's head was 
slumped down on his chest.  You guessed it -- he was napping.  This wasn't 
normal behavior for this guy during a game session, but the player -- yes, 
I said the *player* -- was asleep. 
   Everyone (including him) had a good laugh when his character was finally 
called upon to actually do something, and we had to wake him up.  The GM 
just ruled that the character, like the player himself, had dozed off. 
   This is one occasion where, had this been a Hero System game with me as 
GM, the character would *not* have been penalized for the player not paying 
attention; from me, this would have gotten +1 experience point for 
outstanding role playing! 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 17:40:18 -0500 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Points For Perks 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>I have had players take Deep Cover (a very useful perk) to provide  
>themselves with alternate Secret IDs, or because they took Mystery ID.  I  
>have a player who took Right to Marry, which I renamed Clergy, adding the  
>right and duty of confidentiality and other aspects.  
 
The right to marry isn't an exclusive fuction of the clergy; it also 
extends to Justices of the Peace and (by tradition, though I don't know if 
all states recognize this) to captains of vessels at sea.  In 
fantasy/medieval settings, it may also apply to certain feudal nobles; 
i.e., the local duke could arrange marriages between his serfs and they 
could be considered legal, at least within the duchy. 
 
If you want to create a perk called Clergy that incorporates the right to 
marry, there is of course nothing wrong with that.  But "Right to Marry" as 
it stands is valid for the aforementioned non-clergy members as well. 
 
Damon 
 
|--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
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|--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
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|   Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines           | 
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 17:46:32 -0500 (CDT) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail> 
 
> This has got to be the most frustrating part of being a GM. You spend 
> hours of your own time to prepare a game, not to mention go thru the 
 > work (and stress) of actually RUNNING the damn thing... 
  
> and it never fails - you have a couple of players who would rather toss 
> old movie quotes back and forth... or talk about old games... or work on 
> new characters... ANYTHING but pay attention to what's going on. 
  
 
This reminds me of a list I came up with not too long ago...   
How To Demoralize a Gamemaster (This is all completely theoretical of course. 
 
================================================================================ 
  
 How To Demoralize a Gamemaster 
 ------------------------------ 
 Make it clear that you're only going to show up when you have absolutely nothing 
 better to do.   
  
 If you do come up with something better to do when you were expected to show up, 
 don't let anybody know that you're not going to be around.  
  
 If for some reason, you do accidentally think about the game outside of the gaming 
 session, make sure that neither the GM or the other players ever realize it. 
 In fact, it's safest not to think about the game, even when you're playing the 
 game.  
  
 If you do miss a session don't bother trying to find out what happened before 
 the next session. Take some gaming time to get caught up. 
  
 ================================================================================ 
 
Curt 
 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 22:04:03 -0400 
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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        Robert A. West wrote: 
 
> I don't know what the mortality statistics are for real-world single  
> gunshot wounds to the head, but I suspect that at least 25% of all such  
> victims are dead before they hit the ground. 
 
Sorry, but that's just not accurate. The idea of someone being "dead before 
they hit the ground" is a cinematic one, which generally doesn't occur in 
real life. The human body is remarkably resilient, and even the most 
grievous wounds tend to leave the victim alive for at least a short period 
of time. That's not even taking into account the "clinically dead" status, 
where the persons vital signs have ceased, but can be revived with 
extraordinary measures (i.e. a Paramedics roll with heavy penalties), 
which, as far as I'm concerned, is a pretty good description of the -7 to 
-9 BODY range. 
 
Jeff Reid 
Morfhis@compuserve.com 
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm 
 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 22:04:10 -0400 
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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> Aid is one of the most common powers taken in super-hero games in my  
> neck of the woods, much to my chagrin; as often as not, it's capable of  
> boosting several characteristics of several people at a time. 
 
I think this says something about the lethality of the campaigns in your 
neck of the woods. Generally, players give their characters the abilities 
they think they'll need. 
 
Jeff Reid 
Morfhis@compuserve.com 
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm 
 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:09:09 -0700 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Superman (1938) 
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> Michael Surbrook writes: 
>  
> > making them multis, however, does llow some flexability and is less of a 
> > 'corck' than all ultra movement slots would be. 
>  
> All-ultra slot movement Multipowers are no more a crock than any other 
> Multipower.  Once you have allocated your slots, multi or ultra, that is 
> it, you cannot change them until you get another action phase. 
 
	But you would agree that if both slots have at least the minimum  
required to activate the power, then both slots may be used in any order at  
their allocated power levels? 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 02:16:20 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Climbing (was Re: Champions artists) 
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> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
<snip>  
> THE LIMITATIONS ON THIS INSTANCE OF CLINGING MAKE IT WORK JUST LIKE 
> CLIMBING!!!!! 
 
Says who? Climbing does not allow clinging to a ceiling, or climbing a glass wall, or similar feats that are just plain impossible using climbing. The idea is to allow impossible feats, with the SFX of impossibly good climbing skill. 
 
Climbing skill doesn't cover this, because the GM is perfectly within his rights to state that these feats are impossible. The -10 for incredible feats is GM Option only, so that won't cover it. Only Clinging is a tournament-legal way of climbing surfaces that are impossible for real-world climbing. 
 
In order to simulate climbing so good that it surpasses any real world ability, one needs either GM permission to use the impossible feats rule or Clinging. Adding a Skill Roll to indicate that it is a skill and can fail is not neccessary, but I don't understand why it should be forbidden. Neither Climbing nor Clinging w/o the roll give the proper effect. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Combat delays. 
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 21:30:34 -0500 
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>  
> What I want to ask the list is:  Just what slows down combat in your H4 
> games, that you wish would go away? 
>  
> Is it truly stumbling over difficult math? 
>  
> Is it the complexity of applying all the modifiers to the attack rolls? 
>  
> Is it arguing over ambiguous rules? 
>  
> I'll start.  In my game we have a problem with players being ready to do 
> their turn.  
 
(Please excuse the slightly different method of replying.  This is my first 
day on the list and I'm therefore joining mid-thread.) 
 
Short answer:  Nothing, at least not anymore.   
 
Long answer:  I got rid of all the slow-down problems (at least the ones 
that bother me) by developing my own quick combat version of Hero combat.  
I started it in 1992 and finished it this Spring (more or less) with my 
first publication to Haymaker #17.  Before that, every combat took forever 
and a day.  Something had to change because I wanted a campaign with lots 
of big fights, but taking no more than 50% of the game time.  (If anyone is 
interested, I can provide my system in a RTF, Word 6.0, or Word 97 format, 
upon request.  However, in the way of a "warning," just let me say that it 
reflects a lot of house rules and borrowing from many games, including 
Fuzion.  Still, it's origin is almost completely Hero, and a lot of it 
would work with a straight Hero game.) 
 
To actually answer :-)  Almost all of my players have been either old AD&D 
players or RPG novices.  Yes, the complexitiy and math used to mess with 
some of them.  And we still have instances of that, but it is rare enough 
to not cause much of a problem.  The reason is the 80/20 rule.  (In a 
generic sense, the 80/20 rule states that 80% of the problems are caused by 
20% of <fill in subject>.)  My experience is that this is true of Hero 
combat. 
 
Now, there are all kinds of player problems that can mess with combat and 
the game in general.  But my take on that is that it has nothing to do with 
Hero.  Rather, it is a problem of any social activity.  I mean, I've played 
Toon (and liked it), which is about as simple as a RPG can get--and you 
cannot play it well without paying attention.  However, to the extent that 
the Hero System encourages players not to pay attention, it makes that 
common problem worse. 
 
After some thought and play testing, I identified what I think is the 20%.  
Since a combat that used to take 2 hours now takes 20 to 30 minutes, my 
solutions have obviously worked for me.  For the record, we use all the 
normal rules, (or some variation), including END, but none of the optional 
ones (like bleeding, wounding, etc.)  These are the things, in no 
particular order, that I see causing most of the problems in Hero combat 
(especially as compared to other games): 
 
1. Doing the same calculation over and over.  If the player is going to 
attack the same guy, who moved up one range interval, then the attack roll 
is the previous one, higher by 2.  Some players always want to recalculate, 
including some veterans.   I think this is a personality trait of people 
who are sure they left out something the last time. 
2. Too many options paralyzes the player.  I don't mean optional rules, 
although those can hurt.  I'm talking simple skill levels and maneuvers.   
3. Unnecessary waiting on other people (as built into the system, not 
"people" problems).  The SPD chart/DEX order system hurts, but there are 
ways around that.  Worse, is all the time the GM spends recording 
information, while player's wait.   
4. Lack of excitement. (If the combat is exciting the whole time, who cares 
how long it takes?) 
5. The old problem of mismatched defense and attacks, i.e. defense 
relatively too high. 
 
Some very general solutions: 
 
1. Cannot get rid of this one entirely, but solve #2, and the worst of the 
problem goes away.  Also, we have a 1 page cheat sheet that incorporates 
most of our basic rules. 
 
2. Don't let a player use any attack that is not "assembled" ahead of time. 
 We use a standard form per attack, with OCV, DCV, and damage class, that 
allows up to 12 combinations of skill levels and maneuvers, with STR 
included in damage.  A player CAN doctor the sheet between battles, 
although we try to limit it to between sessions.  If the attack is through 
a hand-held focus, then put it on a separate sheet of paper (quarter sheets 
work well).  Only keep out the papers "in hand."  The PC has a limited 
number of hands.  (O.K., most do.)  So why should the player have to sort 
through his complete armory? 
 
3. We use the SPD die option, instead of the chart.  More importantly, we 
use an initiative system that groups PCs and enemies, who all go at once.  
Occasionally, a turn will involve 3 or 4 initiative groups, which slows 
things down a bit, but since it is rare (remember 80/20) we can live with 
it.  The players roll all attacks against themselves. 
 
And we replaced the whole confusing difference between killing and normal 
attacks with a simple chart (on that 1 page cheat-sheet) using percentile 
dice.  No more waiting for one person to collect 12 dice, roll them 
dramatically, chase the ones under the furniture, struggle over the 
counting, announce the results--"8 BODY and 37 STUN, pause while GM does 
quick calculations of his own and announces anti-climatic results, then 
lull before next player does similar thing.  Instead 5 to 8 players roll at 
once, and provide results as they get them.  Our results are things like 
"Severe double."  So it is easier for me to field multiple incoming 
results, easier to track them, and the player already has a good idea of 
what he did, without any feedback from me.     
 
4. A lot of the above handles this one, including the action die and 
players rolling for monsters.  (When a player misses three attacks in a 
row, then manages to roll a 4 to hit himself, he is neither bored nor 
having trouble paying attention.  He also isn't using biased dice.)  I'm 
even considering giving them BODY and STUN information and letting them 
track enemy damage.  The only reason I haven't yet, is that I haven't 
devised a ultra fast way to convey the information, without disrupting 
combat.  Yes, this seems counter-intutitive for excitement, which is why it 
took me so long to decide.  I used to religiously hide enemy information 
from players, even DCV.  But better a quick fight, with active 
players--"Oooh, I creamed him that time"--than inactive ones "protected 
from themselves."   
 
5. Believe it or not, this is the hardest one to solve.  The problem, is 
that in standard Hero, especially at the heroic level, there is a very 
narrow range in the probabilities between "PC totally unhurt" and "PC out 
of the game."  Explaining my solution here would make an already- too-long 
post truly horrendous.  So I'll stop for now.   
 
More details provided if interest warrents ;-) 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 23:03:09 -0400 
From: Chris Paladino <Dino@En.com> 
Organization: EN 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention 
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Todd Hanson wrote: 
 
> * Stop the game, sit back in my chair and silently watch them until they 
> noticed that the room had grown quiet and everyone was looking at them. 
 
    Yeah, this one's fun...  They will actually continue to talk for about 2 
minutes, until they notice the "background noise" has died down, and turn to 
look at me... 
 
 
> they'll look up and ask "Is it my turn yet?".  To which I reply, "Nope, 
 
    I don't even acknowledge them sometimes.  I skip right over them. 
 
 
> * Stop gaming with them.  Not always a practical solution and can cause 
> hard feelings... 
 
    Yeah, this one's hard to do.  Especially when you need players. 
 
 
> * Talk to them.  I've tried this and had mixed results.  Some people 
 
    Surprisingly I've had the most sucess with this one... 
 
    Some tips?  Sure: 
 
    -Have food/drink on hand.  Eat before you play (or plan on taking a 
dinner/lunch break).  But it's always good to have a big bowl of pretzels, and a 
2 liter of coke on the table... 
    -Turn off all TVs/Stereos, etc...  This one is a SURE distraction waiting to 
happen... 
    -Put away all the RPG books your not using.  Sometimes my players just kinda 
thumb through them as I'm trying to GM, and then they (unintentionally) miss the 
whole background story. 
    -Don't let them draw/color/paint miniatures, or their costumes, or anything 
else distracting. 
 
 
-- 
Chris Paladino 
 
 
Dino@En.com 
CPaladino@Jcvaxa.jcu.edu 
http://www.en.com/users/dino/index.html 
 
 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 23:00:00 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Hey, that hero looks familiar 
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>in every supers game I have ever seen, some regular character is one  
>of the following: 
> 
>	The alien/future warrior with an Autodoc, 
>	The Super-Physician, with his super-med-kit, 
>	The Thaumaturgical Priest/Priestess with Supernatural Healing, 
>	The Regenerator, who generally has Usable by Others at 0 DCV, 
>	The Empath, with a Transfer any of own Characteristics to other. 
 
Wow, this was interesting.  In the various Champions games I've run or 
played in over the past 10-15 years, four of those character types have 
never appeared at all.  There were a couple of characters with 
Regeneration, but it wasn't UBO.  I don't think there's all that much 
repetition of character types in the games I've been in.  My wife generally 
plays much lower-point characters than everyone else, but her characters 
don't all have the same set of Skills and Powers.   
 
There is one player who always seems to want to play variations on the same 
character, regardless of setting, power level or what character types the 
other players have.  The player has been a cop, a private investigator, a 
benefits fraud investigator for the state, etc.  His standard character is 
a former cop, private eye with several sleazy street contacts (invariably 
including one pimp; no game ever went by without Kerry announcing, "I'll 
look up my snitch and see what's the word on the street."), low-level 
martial arts ability and one superpower.  The power varies slightly from 
game to game; he's had various forms of shapeshifting, usually with a magic 
SFX, sometimes involving a Focus.  
 
We used to have a second player who used to like to whittle himself a 
character for each game.  He'd begin with a basic concept:  "My character 
is a time-travelling cyborg alien mage with ninja skills.  A lab accident 
mutated him, and..."  Adding up the point totals for this obscenity, he 
would naturally find he couldn't pay for it.  He would then whittle away at 
it, shaving a point here and a point there, sacrificing the minimum power 
and skill possible.  Usually, he'd decide partway through this process that 
there was no way he'd be able to hang onto very much of the original 
concept, so he'd abandon it entirely and create a reasonable character from 
scratch.  But next game, it'd be: "Okay, I'm going to run an ex-Special 
Forces agent who has Invisibility (Always On) and he can Teleport.  He's a 
Martial Arts master and has lots of Combat Skill Levels...and a piece of 
alien technology he stole from the government that lets him see into the 
future.  And, um, lots of weapons.  I can buy those with money, right?"  Sigh. 
 
What would the rest of you say are the character concepts most often 
repeated in your campaigns/game groups? 
 
Damon 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Need help to subscribe to FH list also 
Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 23:28:27 -0500 
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Based on the info on Theala Sildorian's web site, I sent a request to: 
	majordomo@eskimo.com 
with a subject and body line of: 
	subscribe fantasy-hero-l@eskimo.com 
 
But my message was returned.  What am I doing wrong? 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 23:28:49 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Champions artists 
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> >> Then what purpose does the "requires Climbing skill roll" serve, other 
> >> than to make the power cheaper? 
> 
> > 	I don't know . . . maybe, say, give it a chance to fail? 
> 
> Then why do you need a power to do what the Climbing skill already does? 
 
	Were you paying attention?  This allows for more impressive feats 
than the skill allows, as well as allowing greater speed of climbing. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 04:30:53 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Combat delays. H4 only. (Long) 
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> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
>  
<snip> 
> I want to see something like this: 
>  
> GM: Joe, your turn. 
> Joe: What has been going on?  Where is everyone? 
> GM: Your character is daydreaming.  Bill, your turn. 
>  
> 'Course, the GM should inform players that he is going to do that before 
> the fight starts. :) 
 
Don't inform the players, at least not the first time. They'll remember it better. Just give them a couple of strikes before you really enforce it. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 21:37:55 -0700 
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com> 
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com 
Organization: None 
To: HSR <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Powers lists 
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Goode, Jason wrote: 
 
> On Tuesday, May 19, 1998 1:53 PM, Trevor Barrie [SMTP:tbarrie@ibm.net] 
> wrote: 
> > character creation. But if you're going to sell a super-hero RPG, you'd 
> > better make sure it's playable in the super-hero genre, and a system with 
> > just a power list just isn't. 
> > 
> 
> Says you, says me and probably most, if not all, of the people on this list 
> too, but that philosophy doesn't wash with all the HU, MSH, DCH, etc. 
> players out there.   You and I could never stomach it, but it works for 
> them. 
 
  I kinda like DCH, V&V/LL,  and MSH for some of their more absolute 
nature...Mostly I've found that Hero could use some sort of 'creation' power. 
Like the Energy solidification/Solid Illusions powers that are rather 
common.... 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 00:21:30 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
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> > averages 11.5 body.  Hit someone anywhere but the feet or hands and he 
> > is dying, and IIRC will bleed to death in less than two minutes. 
> 
> Without attention from someone with Paramedic skill or a BODY Aid.  I 
> have never seen a group of more than two PCs who lacked both. 
 
	I'm usually quicker to control BOD Aid than that. 
 
 
> I don't know what the mortality statistics are for real-world single 
> gunshot wounds to the head, but I suspect that at least 25% of all such 
> victims are dead before they hit the ground. 
> 
> Of course, whether this is a bug or a feature depends on genre, but the 
> idea of Hero is, allegedly, to support all genres, and that 
> should include deadly ones. 
 
	The easiest solution, of course, is to give everyone a no-points 
suceptibility to gunshots.  Similar to Mystic Masters including a X2 
effect from magic for all non-magicians.  But in its base form, Hero 
simulates _Heroes_ who don't die very easily, even if they are normal. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 21:40:02 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Eric Chaves <rambler@sowest.net> 
Subject: Re:Players who dont pay attention 
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Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>    My problem (historically speaking) has always been the same as yours -- 
> the players aren't prepared for their turn when it comes up.  Out of a 
> group of 7 players, frequently only two (myself included) would be really 
> paying attention to what's going on during a combat, while three would be 
> discussing last week's Bushido game, one reading the rulebook, and one 
> doing artwork for a different campaign.  When any of the last five are 
> called upon, they typically have to start by asking, "Okay, so what's 
> been going on?" 
 
Got all this beat.  I'm playing in a AD & D game where three of the players 
get up the middle of the game, go in the bathroom, and smoke pot.  Often 
its just me and the GM sitting in the gaming room hanging out. 
 
Not only is this very annoying but also rather rude. IMO. 
 
 
 
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Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 23:45:33 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Player Skills Census (was GAZZA's Analysis of the Champions List) 
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happyelf wrote: 
>  
> > 
> > Lessee....my campaign includes or has recently included practicing 
> > professionals as follows: 
> > 
>  
> <snip> 
>  
> Thai fighters and black belts, in a martial arts game. 
> nuff said? 
 
And, how well do your qualifications stand up to this challenge?  Are you  
a black belt?  A well-informed afficionado?  Or a duffer with the aplomb  
to carry it off for that tough an audience? 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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From: "potroast@theoven" <darkwraith@worldnet.att.net> 
To: "Todd Hanson" <badtodd@dacmail.net&> <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention 
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 01:47:10 -0500 
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---------- 
> From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
> Subject: Players who dont pay attention 
> Date: Wednesday, May 20, 1998 4:02 PM 
>  
> Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
> >    My problem (historically speaking) has always been the same as yours 
-- 
> > the players aren't prepared for their turn when it comes up.  Out of a 
> > group of 7 players, frequently only two (myself included) would be 
really 
> > paying attention to what's going on during a combat, while three would 
be 
> > discussing last week's Bushido game, one reading the rulebook, and one 
> > doing artwork for a different campaign.  When any of the last five are 
> > called upon, they typically have to start by asking, "Okay, so what's 
> > been going on?" 
>  
> This has got to be the most frustrating part of being a GM. You spend 
> hours of your own time to prepare a game, not to mention go thru the 
> work (and stress) of actually RUNNING the damn thing... 
>  
> and it never fails - you have a couple of players who would rather toss 
> old movie quotes back and forth... or talk about old games... or work on 
> new characters... ANYTHING but pay attention to what's going on. 
>  
[Snip] 
 
I understand what your saying, and yes it can drive you to destration, 
however I noticed that this stems from not allowing the game to digress a 
small amount at times (No, I'm not kidding) allowing players to ramble ans 
lot off steam.  I supose I should consider myself blessed that this does 
not happen often with my group.  But I consider that I and most others play 
this *game* for fun and that reading someone the riot act for kibitzing or 
naping is the first way to build up ill-feelings and dissition.   You might 
try having the players explain, what has happen and see how badly they 
accidently or deliberatly mess up the retelling 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 00:24:08 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Points For Perks 
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Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote: 
>  
 
> >have a player who took Right to Marry, which I renamed Clergy, adding the 
> >right and duty of confidentiality and other aspects. 
>  
> The right to marry isn't an exclusive fuction of the clergy; it also 
> extends to Justices of the Peace  
 
Actually, to all judges, and to mayors and, in some states, Governors.   
If a character wanted to have such a position, then I would have the  
player take the modern equivalent of "low justice", which would subsume  
the right to marry. 
 
>                            and (by tradition, though I don't know if 
> all states recognize this) to captains of vessels at sea.  In 
 
IIRC, this refers to vessels on the high seas, so individual state laws  
are not directly affected.  If any state of the U.S. recognizes a  
particular such union as valid then, in the absence of some incapacity of  
the parties (such as being underage), the "full faith and credit" clause  
of the Constitution would seem to require that all states recognize it. 
 
Again, I would subsume this and several other minor benefits under the  
heading of "Master's License" -- a 3-point Fringe Benefit combining a  
professional license (1 point) with the rights and privileges of a ships  
captain, including police powers while at sea and the right to marry. 
 
> fantasy/medieval settings, it may also apply to certain feudal nobles; 
> i.e., the local duke could arrange marriages between his serfs and they 
> could be considered legal, at least within the duchy. 
 
And, I would consider it silly to charge a person 5 cp for being a member  
of the Aristocracy, and *another* point for the right to marry. 
 
>  
> If you want to create a perk called Clergy that incorporates the right to 
> marry, there is of course nothing wrong with that.  But "Right to Marry" as 
> it stands is valid for the aforementioned non-clergy members as well. 
 
But, as I have illustrated above, it forms, IMHO, part and parcel of some  
other Fringe Benefit in most of those cases. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 00:35:04 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
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Jeff M. Reid wrote: 
>  
> > Aid is one of the most common powers taken in super-hero games in my 
> > neck of the woods, much to my chagrin; as often as not, it's capable of 
> > boosting several characteristics of several people at a time. 
>  
> I think this says something about the lethality of the campaigns in your 
> neck of the woods. Generally, players give their characters the abilities 
> they think they'll need. 
 
Ummm... 
 
In case you have forgotten, Aid is used to represent powers that make  
people stronger, faster, more resiliant, etc.  A not untypical Aid power  
might be. 
 
30	4D6 Aid any physical char(+1/4) Fade/min(+1/4) 
 
This is not *intended* as a healing power.  It might represent a Martial  
Artist's Chi, a Dorsai's power of mind over body, a Jedi's self-control  
via the Force.  It is mostly used to boost DEX or SPD or STR or PD before  
going into battle, but, as a secondary effect, it can also heal BODY  
afterwards. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 01:43:17 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
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Jeff M. Reid wrote: 
>  
>         Robert A. West wrote: 
>  
> > I don't know what the mortality statistics are for real-world single 
> > gunshot wounds to the head, but I suspect that at least 25% of all such 
> > victims are dead before they hit the ground. 
>  
> Sorry, but that's just not accurate. The idea of someone being "dead before 
> they hit the ground" is a cinematic one, which generally doesn't occur in 
> real life.  
 
Gee!  Aren't you one of the people who is always reminding me to think  
cinematically, and not so realistically?  :-) 
 
Seriously, I should have been more careful to distinguish between being  
clinically dead and being beyond help.  If the .38 slug shatters your  
medulla oblongata, there may be spasmodic breathing and/or heart activity  
for a time, but no technology on earth, and probably none to come for a  
long time, will be able to save you.  If the slug passes through your  
forebrain, then there is more of a chance to save you, or at least to get  
a dying declaration for the trial. 
 
Regardless of actual percentages, a non-trivial number of people who are  
hit with .38 slugs are beyond help at the moment they are struck.   
Nevertheless, the system makes it mathematically impossible for a .38  
(1D6+1RKA) to kill a normal instantly, unless the GM rules essentially by  
fiat that the victim has died. 
 
Despite what people have said about the impairing rules, they offer  
nothing more than an excuse for GM fiat in this regard, and I prefer to  
minimize GM fiat.  Since many PCs have 20-point codes against killing,  
the death of even an NPC ruffian may adversely affect a PC. 
 
>             The human body is remarkably resilient, and even the most 
> grievous wounds tend to leave the victim alive for at least a short period 
 
Many of those people are beyond help; nevertheless, the lingering  
death may provide the players or NPCs with time to gain valuable data.   
Under the rules, a normal victim who is dying cannot linger more than two  
minutes (-0 to -10 BODY).  Many victims (again, I don't have statistics,  
and decline to venture another percentage guess) linger far longer than  
this: IIRC, Lincoln and Kennedy both lingered for well over an hour.  In  
both cases, I would venture to guess that even 1990's trauma technology  
could do little. 
 
Other people linger for a long time, and can be saved, but are clearly in  
danger of bleeding to death slowly.  This is also not well represented in  
the system: barring GM fiat, victims die within two minutes or are not in  
mortal danger.  This forces situations into artificially tight time  
scales. 
  
I don't think that the Impairment and Disabling rules do more than give a  
GM an excuse to exercise fiat in such matters.  On the other hand, I have  
no alternative to offer at the moment.  I think what I would like is more  
variability of result. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 07:36:42 -0400 
From: Chris Paladino <Dino@En.com> 
Organization: EN 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Eric Chaves wrote: 
 
> Got all this beat.  I'm playing in a AD & D game where three of the players 
> get up the middle of the game, go in the bathroom, and smoke pot.  Often 
> its just me and the GM sitting in the gaming room hanging out. 
 
> Not only is this very annoying but also rather rude. IMO. 
 
    Yeah, and it's illegal.  Just call the cops next time, they will stop. 
*Evil maniacal laugh*-- 
Chris Paladino 
 
 
Dino@En.com 
CPaladino@Jcvaxa.jcu.edu 
http://www.en.com/users/dino/index.html 
 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 06:57:50 -0600 
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Hey, that hero looks familiar 
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Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote: 
 
> What would the rest of you say are the character concepts most often 
> repeated in your campaigns/game groups? 
>  
> Damon 
 
In the campaigns I play in/GM there isn't a consistant set of 
powers/background between characters, but there is usually a personality 
archtype that a player re uses. 
 
I have a strong tendancy towards martial artists. Even when I build a 
character specifically to avoid that character type, along about 75 or 
100 xp they end up with it... Personalities due vary widely however.  
 
One player in my games has a tendancy to play the wide eyed innocent. Of 
the 7 characters I've seen him play 4 have been teens or naive early 
20's, and one is an very experiance mage with amnesia, so it ends up the 
same. 
 
We had for a time a player that 3 of his 4 characters were Energy 
projectors, and the fourth was an FH character with ranged attacks (pari 
of pistols) 
 
Another player (the 'token' female of the group) has a tendancy to play 
pushy and arrogent characters. She usually ends up being the team 
leader. 
 
--  
 
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages, 
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and 
goes through their pockets.    -- Eddy Peters 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:02:31 -0400 
From: Stallard David <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention 
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
> 1) The character loses a half phase to assess what's going on. 
   2) The character gets -2 OCV and -2 DCV for that phase because he was 
daydreaming. 
   3) A penalty of -1 experience point is assessed for poor role-playing.< 
 
I think I like the first option best.  However, these are all penalties on 
the character, and it almost never makes sense that the character would not 
be paying attention in combat (even the example you cited of the character 
who liked to keep to himself).  When your life or the lives of others are 
in danger, you don't start daydreaming or wandering aimlessly...your 
adrenalin races and you are trying to stop the danger or at least get 
yourself out of harm's way.  Thus, I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense to 
translate a player's inattentiveness to his character.  That said, I would 
probably do it anyway, as it's the only way I can think of to encourage the 
player to stay involved, if it's only to observe the actions of his 
teammates. 
 
I think player inattentiveness is a symptom, though, not the problem.  The 
question to ask is, "Why are my players not paying attention when it isn't 
their turn?"  I put the blame partly on the Hero system, for making combat 
very methodical and almost like playing a miniatures wargame.  It's hard to 
get the other players to watch with bated breath while another player 
measures out inches on a ruler (counts hexes on a map) and plugs that 
number and others into various formulas.  Of course, I don't know how else 
to get that level of detail (knockback, utilizing the environment (throwing 
cars), etc) without all of this mechanical work.  The base problem is that 
too much time lapses between one player's turn and his next, which provides 
plenty of opportunity to lose interest in what else is 
happening--especially if the battle is in two or more clusters where some 
clusters have no immediate effect on the player's character. 
 
My group only has 2 players, so player inattentiveness isn't much of a 
problem.  However, I've been in larger groups (6+ players) and 
inattentiveness is rampant there...I'm guilty of it myself on many counts.  
My problem is that the "comic book action" is few and far between all the 
mechanic talk.  We're playing a superhero game because we like the 
super-action, but combat goes more like this:   
 
<rules talk><rules talk><rules talk><rules talk>BLAMMO!<rules talk><rules 
talk><rules talk><rules talk>WHAP!<rules talk><rules talk><rules talk> 
 
When what I hope for is: 
 
<rules talk>BLAMMO!<rules talk>WHAP!<rules talk>SLAM!<rules 
talk>CRASH!<rules talk>KA-WHAM!<rules talk> 
 
This illustrates two points...the first is the "lack of excitement" which 
another list member brought up in a recent post.  The second is, in a 
roundabout way, I've managed to explain why I am reconsidering the Fuzion 
system.  I'm hoping for a reduction of "rules talk chunks" in between each 
"action chunk", and I'm trying to decide for myself if Fuzion delivers this 
without removing too many positives from HSR. 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Balance 
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:10:35 -0400 
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On Wednesday, May 20, 1998 4:41 PM, Bob Greenwade 
[SMTP:bob.greenwade@klock.com] wrote: 
>    Doesn't it go a little beyond that?  I thought each of the 
> Fuzion-powered games already on the shelves had specific characteristics 
> that others don't.  That seems to me like a little more than a paragraph. 
 
IRC (and considering how late I was up with these damn conversions last 
night, I may not recall correctly), BGC has the exact same characteristics. 
A perceived difference maybe BGC's personality stat, which, if you read it, 
is exactly the same as presence, except that the author changed the name. 
Why? I don't know.  Seems like more trouble than its worth.  I flipped 
through UY, but I'd never heard of it before so I figured I ask around 
before picking it up.  I'll get it next month.  I do know that is uses 
instant fuzion (i.e., a compressed stat list) which is, but at the same time 
isn't different.  I guess it depends on how well you understand their design 
philosophy and how flexible your thinking is in this area. 
 
>    As far as I can think of, every published campaign setting in Hero uses 
> only the exact same eight Primary Characteristics and six Derived 
> Characteristics. 
 
I haven't picked up every hero publication out there, but I'm pretty sure 
you are right. 
 
>    (I'd go into this in more detail, but it's not really that strongly 
Hero 
> related, and some of the folks are calling for an end to the discussion 
for 
> that very reason.) 
> --- 
 
No problem.  If your still interested in discussing it, let me know and 
we'll go private. 
 
> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
> Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:14:38 -0400 
From: Stallard David <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Multiple characters per player 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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This is somewhat of a general Role-Playing question, but here goes.... 
 
How do you feel about allowing players to run more than one character at 
the same time?  As a player, would you like to run more than one character 
at the same time? 
 
I have always been strongly against this, because I feel that having 2 
characters turns both of them into collections of numbers that you can 
throw into combat, while having 1 character allows you to have some 
personality shine through the numbers.  In other words, I've always felt 
that both characters' personalities are going to suffer because the 
player's attention is divided.  Additionally, you have a problem when one 
character knows information that another one doesn't know...since they are 
both being run by the same player, they are usually going to be VERY 
cooperative with each other.  I'm not sure that I've worded my concerns 
very well, but I'd be interested to see what everyone thinks about having 
multiple characters per player. 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 07:19:09 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Hey, that hero looks familiar 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 11:00 PM 5/20/1998 -0500, Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin wrote: 
>What would the rest of you say are the character concepts most often 
>repeated in your campaigns/game groups? 
 
   One of the unwritten rules in my old game group was, "Hey, I've played X 
type of character in the last two campaigns, I think I'll play Y this 
time."  We all had a good variety of types. 
   There were two or three people who had decided tendencies, though.  My 
wife, Colleen, at this time always seemed to want to play 
energy-controllers (fire, light, electricity, whatever), and another fellow 
tended toward bricks who had one form or another of Professional Wrestling. 
 However, Colleen has had a couple of interesting bricks, and the Pro 
Wrestler fanatic once made up an intersting wizard with a decidedly comedic 
bent (the sigils on this guy's robe included Batman's insignia, a stop 
sign, the "peace" symbol, and "For a good time call Snuggles the Elf" along 
the hem). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 08:45:50 -0600 
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Multiple characters per player 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Stallard David wrote: 
>  
> This is somewhat of a general Role-Playing question, but here goes.... 
>  
> How do you feel about allowing players to run more than one character at 
> the same time?  As a player, would you like to run more than one character 
> at the same time? 
 
 
I've done it as a player, and it can be fun, but there can be problems 
especially if the characters have a similar personality. In the main 
Champs campaign I play in, we had two players move out in a relatively 
short amount of time, and the GM wanted more bodies, but we had no 
interest from new players (not a lot of HEROphiles in our area) so he 
settled on secondary characters for everyone. I desinged the second 
character with the fact that he would be secondary, and would be 
sometimes be played at the same time as the primary. My primary 
character is a mystic martial artist, and a tactical genius, driven, 
focused and intense; therfore my second character became an obnoxious 
teen hero with computer telepathy. No chance that they would duplicate 
each others tactical place on the team, and no chance I could get thier 
personalities confused. The only problems I have playing the two of 
them, is that they generally don't like each other, and I end up arguing 
with myself 8) 
 
As a GM I find it can be usefull, if you have good players, who can keep 
the personalities seperate. In my Watchtower campaign, I have every 
player have three characters. However it is only in unusual 
circumstances that they play even two at the same time (other than some 
whole team meetings and such). I run a JLA/Legionesque game with the PCs 
splitting into subteams for individual missions. Each Player has PCs 
that fit a catagory (and usually more than one)- sneaky, mystic, 
powerhouse ect... Then occasionally I run a huge Bru-ha-ha with everyone 
involved.  
 
With that structure it allows me to introduce more intricate plots and 
subplots, and easily work around players that don't show up. 
 
Good thread idea.. 
 
--  
 
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages, 
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and 
goes through their pockets.    -- Eddy Peters 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:47:21 -0400 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> 
Subject: Re: Multiple characters per player 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>How do you feel about allowing players to run more than one character at 
>the same time?  As a player, would you like to run more than one character 
>at the same time? 
> 
>I have always been strongly against this, because I feel that having 2 
>characters turns both of them into collections of numbers that you can 
>throw into combat, while having 1 character allows you to have some 
>personality shine through the numbers.  
 
I don't think that the role-playing is the biggest problem.  I think  
that any decent player can suitably play two different personalities 
within the same scenario. 
 
The reason a player might choose to do this is quite simple:  More 
play time.  The multi-character player has twice as many action phases 
as a player with one character.  He also has an instantly coordinated 
team, as one character can easily play into the plans of another.   
Pretty soon the other players feel slighted, and start building second 
characters for themselves. 
 
As a GM, I find that this adds NOTHING to the play, and only slows  
things down.  With 5-7 heroes, plus a balancing number of villains, and 
throw in a few assorted bystanders ... the battle stretches on for  
hours.   Adding a few more heroes into the mix is not something I want 
to think about. 
 
Note that these are *my* preferences.  Other GMs in the group may not 
have a problem with the extra characters.  And, if we're not going into 
combat, I would probably allow them as well. 
======================  ================================================= 
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed  
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is  
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead 
======================  ================================================= 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 07:49:18 -0700 (PDT) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net 
Subject: Re: Multiple characters per player 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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---Stallard David  wrote: 
> 
> This is somewhat of a general Role-Playing question, but here goes.... 
>  
> How do you feel about allowing players to run more than one 
character at 
> the same time?  As a player, would you like to run more than one 
character 
> at the same time? 
 
The only time I've done this is in a couple of Justice Inc. games (one 
that I ran several years ago, and one that's just recently started).  
In both cases the player built two characters - one on a 75 point 
base, the other on a 50 point base.   
The 50 point base character was something like a sidekick (actually, 
more like a slightly less competant associate, partner, or friend).  
 
Much of what was hapening in the campaigns was being addressed in solo 
(or near solo) sessions.  In these mini-sessions I frequently include 
the secondary characters, particularly in those instances when it 
would be unlikely for the primary character to knowingly go into a 
potentialy hazardous situation alone and would deliberately seek out 
support but be unable to contact other player's characters. 
 
  
> I have always been strongly against this, because I feel that having 2 
> characters turns both of them into collections of numbers that you can 
> throw into combat, while having 1 character allows you to have some 
> personality shine through the numbers.  In other words, I've always 
felt 
> that both characters' personalities are going to suffer because the 
> player's attention is divided.  Additionally, you have a problem 
when one 
> character knows information that another one doesn't know...since 
they are 
> both being run by the same player, they are usually going to be VERY 
> cooperative with each other.  I'm not sure that I've worded my 
concerns 
> very well, but I'd be interested to see what everyone thinks about 
having 
> multiple characters per player. 
 
Jusitce Inc in general (and my solo sessions in particular) tend to 
have very little combat, so there was no great incentive to turn one 
or the other into a collection of combat numbers, and with the 
secondaries not being used in full sessions you still get the 
primaries' "personalities shining through the number". 
 
As for the shared information and cooperation problem, well, since 
that's what I'm counting on the secondaries being used for it's not a 
problem.  Actualy, I required to the players to build the character 
backgrounds such that the two started the game already associated with 
each other somehow. 
 
The first campaign I did this in, the concept worked well for me.  
None of the "juniors" have shown up yet in the current campaign, so I 
can't comment on how well it's working. 
 
 
 
== 
 
     John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
============================================ 
Got a question about the list?  Just ask.  Or, you can go 
look over at www.sysabend.org/champions.  I've been 
slowly posting information about the list there. 
 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 08:03:51 -0700 (PDT) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net 
Subject: Re: Multiple characters per player 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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---John Desmarais  wrote: 
> The only time I've done this is in a couple of Justice Inc. games (one 
> that I ran several years ago, and one that's just recently started).  
 
 
Oh, I forgot.  Also did a Legion of Superheroes type game, but it was 
done differently than my JI games.  Each player built three 
characters, 75+disads (150 average), 100+disads (250 average), 
150+disads (350 average); but only played one character in any given 
session.   
 
I let the players decided which characters they were going to play.  
Eventually, the group settled into usually playing to 100+ characters, 
with the 75+ becoming something like the Legion Espianoge Squad, and 
the 150+ being reserved for those crisises thet required "big guns". 
(If I did this again, I'd probably start with this split in mind as it 
worked so well). 
 
 
All in all, a whole lot of fun.  I'd like to do it again sometime 
(actualy, I really like to be a player) 
 
 
-=>John D. 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Player Skills Census (was GAZZA's Analysis of the Champions List) 
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 01:18:44 +1000 
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> >  
> > Thai fighters and black belts, in a martial arts game. 
> > nuff said? 
>  
> And, how well do your qualifications stand up to this challenge?  Are you 
 
> a black belt?  A well-informed afficionado?  Or a duffer with the aplomb  
> to carry it off for that tough an audience? 
>  
 
 
Welll. . the one guy i'd have real trouble 'talking down' to is a friend  
of mine who taught me the most during my 'formal' training and just  
hanging around. , and he's experienced enough with rpg's  
to be happy with the wire-fu approach. The others involved are about 
my level physically, (intermediate at best) although i suppose i have  
the most theory. . hrmm. . actually come to think of it i've had WAY 
worse P*ss*ing contests in groups which don't have a clue about that  
sorta stuff. . . 
 
 
 
> --  
> <-------------------------------------------------------> 
> Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
> Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
> http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
>  
>  
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: Multiple characters per player 
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 11:19:34 -0400 
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On Thursday, May 21, 1998 10:15 AM, Stallard David 
[SMTP:DBStallard@COMPUSERVE.COM] wrote: 
> cooperative with each other.  I'm not sure that I've worded my concerns 
> very well, but I'd be interested to see what everyone thinks about having 
> multiple characters per player. 
 
As a GM, I find that it takes a VERY good player to pull it off.  I'll allow 
it every once in a while to see what a player's abilities are in this area, 
but generally not, with the exception of sometimes allowing them to do NPC 
heroes in a LARGE scale battle like we have from time to time.  Except for 
some GMs with their NPCs, I don't think I've ever seen anyone do it well. 
 
As a player observing himself, I'd like to think that I'm not too shabby. 
Unfortuantely, I find that I tend to favor one character over the other. 
One gets the full blown effort of me trying to project a personality.  The 
other gets what amounts to a half-hearted attempt. 
 
As a player observing a GM, I only recall one GM who seemed to be able to 
project full life and personality into every NPC. 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Hey, that hero looks familiar 
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 02:17:30 +1000 
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> What would the rest of you say are the character concepts most often 
> repeated in your campaigns/game groups? 
>  
> Damon 
>  
 
werewolves for some reason, oh and 'last of their race' people. . . 
when i set up the core alpha face-to-face game i said they could be from  
anywhere in th multivere. as 'luck' would have it 3 of the five playing  
each chose (seperatly) to be the last of their race. . . we had a good 
laugh and  
all that when we found out, but come the next time to call about characters 
i  
find that the other two have taken the same origin as a joke. . . the 
dialogue ended up like: 
 
p1"so, last of your race?" 
p2"yeah, my whole planet exploded. you?" 
p2"um, enormous plague i think" 
p3"hey you guys the last of your race too? me too!" 
p1"how'd you lose your world?" 
p3"um, inexplicable plot-device" 
p4"man, tell me about it. .. alls i did was blink. . . .. .. " 
 
 
 
 
> |--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
> |****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************| 
> |--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
> |Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/     | 
> |   Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines           | 
> |       Worthy Causes -- Computer -- Atlanta -- All Human Knowledge  | 
> |--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 11:57:00 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention 
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> > Not only is this very annoying but also rather rude. IMO. 
> 
>     Yeah, and it's illegal.  Just call the cops next time, they will stop. 
> *Evil maniacal laugh*-- 
 
	Now, now.  Calling and coperating with the American Gestapo is no 
way to maintain our individual freedoms. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 11:59:53 -0500 (CDT) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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> From: Stallard David <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
>  
> Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
> > 1) The character loses a half phase to assess what's going on. 
>    2) The character gets -2 OCV and -2 DCV for that phase because he was 
> daydreaming. 
>    3) A penalty of -1 experience point is assessed for poor role-playing.< 
>  
> I think I like the first option best.  However, these are all penalties on 
> the character, and it almost never makes sense that the character would not 
> be paying attention in combat (even the example you cited of the character 
> who liked to keep to himself).  When your life or the lives of others are 
 
Agreed.   So, it should be a penalty for poor roleplaying.  
 
> The base problem is that 
> too much time lapses between one player's turn and his next, which provides 
> plenty of opportunity to lose interest in what else is 
> happening 
 
Do the players brains turn off when it's not their turn ?  Admittedly, I've 
seen this symptom myself, but why aren't the players figuring out their  
character's next move while they're waiting their turn ?  
Ideally it should be: 
GM: "Laserfire's turn" 
PC: "I fly towards Ogre and fire full power.  I rolled 'x'" 
NOTE:  the player has ALREADY done any 'calculations/formulas' needed. 
GM: "you hit"  
PC: "damage is X stun and Y body" 
GM: "OK.  Ogre sneers, and seems undamaged.  Clawguy's turn"    
 
> My problem is that the "comic book action" is few and far between all the 
> mechanic talk.  We're playing a superhero game because we like the 
> super-action, but combat goes more like this:   
>  
> <rules talk><rules talk><rules talk><rules talk>BLAMMO!<rules talk><rules 
> talk><rules talk><rules talk>WHAP!<rules talk><rules talk><rules talk> 
>  
> When what I hope for is: 
>  
> <rules talk>BLAMMO!<rules talk>WHAP!<rules talk>SLAM!<rules 
> talk>CRASH!<rules talk>KA-WHAM!<rules talk> 
 
I don't see where all the <rules talk> keeps coming in.  There MAY be some  
silent figuring going on, but the only thing that has to be said out loud 
is the 'in-character action', the roll-to-hit, and the damage.   
 
  
> I'm hoping for a reduction of "rules talk chunks" in between each 
> "action chunk", and I'm trying to decide for myself if Fuzion delivers this 
> without removing too many positives from HSR. 
>  
 
I had a thought earlier when reading the delayed combat thread.   
Fuzion is supposed to have quicker combat resolution, although some  
say that it doesn't. 
I'm probably stating the obvious here, but if the majority of the delays in 
running combats is due to player inattention, then it's probably not going 
to matter what rules system is used.   
 
Curt 
 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention  
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 13:35:17 -0400 
From: Ken Crist <kayuucee@cfar.umd.edu> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>>     Yeah, and it's illegal.  Just call the cops next time, they will stop. 
>> *Evil maniacal laugh*-- 
> 
>	Now, now.  Calling and coperating with the American Gestapo is no 
>way to maintain our individual freedoms. 
> 
>				-Tim Gilberg 
 
	My uncle was a homicde detective for several years and I find your 
comment disgusting. The police, like every other profession, has good and 
bad people, but they are mostly good. They do a difficult job with little 
respect and even less thanks. Should we be watchful of there excesses, yes. 
Should we compare them to the Gestapo, no. 
	I know that this response will mean nothing to you. You have catagorized 
the police as being repressive government arm whose sole intent is to erradicate 
your individual liberty. Nothing will change your opinion. But I will not 
let that opinion be voiced here in this mailing list without pointing out that 
not everyone shares your low opinion of the police nor do they agree with your 
associating them with a group whose very nature is abhorant. If the police in our 
country were like the Gestapo, within a few days of voicing your opinion of 
them in a public forum I would expect you to disappear from this mailing list 
never to be heard from again. 
	However, I am sure that next week you will post some other equally inane 
opinion which will just prove how wrong you are in this one. 
 
						Ken Crist 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 12:45:41 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention 
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On Thu, 21 May 1998, Curt Hicks wrote: 
 
> Do the players brains turn off when it's not their turn ?  
 
Often.  Some players lose all interst when it's not their turn in the 
spotlight, unfortunately. 
 
> > My problem is that the "comic book action" is few and far between all the 
> > mechanic talk.  We're playing a superhero game because we like the 
> > super-action, but combat goes more like this:   
 
<snip> 
 
You know, I've heard suggestions that you reward people for 'appropriate 
actions' - for example, in a swashbuckling game, if they swung on a 
chandelier, they'd get bonuses to their rolls because it's part of the 
genre. 
 
I was wondering if anyone had tried to /penalize/ people for /not/ 
sticking with the genre.  For instance, if a superhero game combat went 
like this: 
 
PC1: I fly up into the air and attack Ogre with my Energy Blast.  (rolls) 
     It hits a DCV of 8. 
GM: You hit, roll damage. 
PC1: 23 STUN, 5 BODY. 
GM: (figures) Ogre seems to shrug it off. 
 
That's kind of boring - and if it were a comic book, it'd be dull to read. 
There's a reason there's lots of dialog in comic book fights.  Would it be 
fair to penalize the above for being uninteresting?  I think tossing in a 
bit of dialogue between the combatants would spice things up a bit. 
 
Plus, you can all get a good laugh if someone says something really 
cheesy. 8) 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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From: "Darien Phoenix Lynx" <lynx@insync.net> 
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Multiple characters per player 
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 13:01:21 -0500 
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>This is somewhat of a general Role-Playing question, but here goes.... 
> 
>How do you feel about allowing players to run more than one character at 
>the same time?  As a player, would you like to run more than one character 
>at the same time? 
 
 
If a character buys duplication, always on, then they may have more than one 
character. The cost of the duplication balances out any excess of power 
associated with having two characters. That's good enough for combat 
Champions. Role-playing, on the other hand, can be a real challenge. Make 
sure your player is up to it. 
 
Personally, I would rather concentrate on one character than running more 
than one at the same time. Some time ago, another discussion on this list 
asked whether characters with duplication should get more "air time" with 
the GM. Certainly, if the characters split up this can be a cause for 
resentment from the other players--especially if they find what the 
duplicates are doing is boring. In several ways, I think that playing more 
than one character is more suited for the average problem-solver or average 
combat-monster than the average role-player. But with the exceptional 
role-player, it can be quite entertaining. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Champions artists 
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Date: 21 May 1998 14:06:01 -0400 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Tim R Gilberg writes: 
 
>> Then why do you need a power to do what the Climbing skill already does? 
 
> 	Were you paying attention?  This allows for more impressive feats 
> than the skill allows, as well as allowing greater speed of climbing. 
 
Were you paying attention, Tim?  The limitations on the power in question 
elimnate 99% of that.  When "requires a skill roll" is tacked on, what is 
left is... Climbing. 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 
Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
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=t300 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 13:16:15 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention  
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> 	My uncle was a homicde detective for several years and I find your 
> comment disgusting. 
 
	Truthfully, I don't really give a s**t. 
 
> The police, like every other profession, has good and 
> bad people, but they are mostly good. They do a difficult job with little 
> respect and even less thanks. Should we be watchful of there excesses, yes. 
 
	I'd have to disagree on the mostly good characterization.  Maybe 
half and half.  But most I've come across have been rude, arrogant, and 
power-tripping egotistical types.  I've been watched at gunpoint while 
ehicles I have ridden in have been searched.  I've seen intimidation 
tactics in action.  Most have to deal with trying to put down the basical 
fundamental liberties we have a right to. 
 
> Should we compare them to the Gestapo, no. 
 
	Disagree, especially when talking about the specific issue of 
drugs.  The USA has the highest imprisonment rate in the modern world, 
specifically because of the war our government is waging on our citizens, 
the war on drugs.  Gestapo tactics are the _norm_ in this war.  We have 
millions of political prisoners in our jails from this unjust war. 
 
> 	However, I am sure that next week you will post some other equally inane 
> opinion which will just prove how wrong you are in this one. 
 
	Seeing how brainwashed you are, you probably will find the above 
to qualify as that "inane statement".  However, your post was enough for 
me to realize that paying any attention to you is a waste of time. 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 13:19:33 -0500 (CDT) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> From jeffj@io.com Thu May 21 12:45 CDT 1998 
>  
> I was wondering if anyone had tried to /penalize/ people for /not/ 
> sticking with the genre.  For instance, if a superhero game combat went 
> like this: 
>  
> PC1: I fly up into the air and attack Ogre with my Energy Blast.  (rolls) 
>      It hits a DCV of 8. 
> GM: You hit, roll damage. 
> PC1: 23 STUN, 5 BODY. 
> GM: (figures) Ogre seems to shrug it off. 
>  
> That's kind of boring - and if it were a comic book, it'd be dull to read. 
> There's a reason there's lots of dialog in comic book fights.  Would it be 
> fair to penalize the above for being uninteresting?  I think tossing in a 
> bit of dialogue between the combatants would spice things up a bit. 
>  
 Gee, that example seems familiar (grin).  I thought about adding some snazzy 
dialog for the PC, but it wasn't really needed for my point, which was that 
the 'rules mechanics' part doesn't need to take up that much time for the bare  
necessities.  The player could spice this up by adding nifty dialog or  
dramatically describing their action, no argument here.  
 
I wouldn't penalize a player that did this, I would *reward* a player that  
'spiced things up'.  It's negative reinforcement versus positive reinforcement. 
 
When I was running my game, in addition to experience points, I used a system 
of 'checks' and 'bars'.  'Checks' were positive, and 'bars' negative.  Using 
soliloquies / dialog in combat or describing your actions dramatically earned  
a character checks.  3 checks were equivalent to an experience point. 
 
Curt 
 
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To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention  
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 14:29:25 -0400 
From: Ken Crist <kayuucee@cfar.umd.edu> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
>> 	My uncle was a homicde detective for several years and I find your 
>> comment disgusting. 
> 
>	Truthfully, I don't really give a s**t. 
 
	Why am I not surpised that you don't care or that you aren't 
mature enough to spell out the word shit when you want to use it? 
 
>> The police, like every other profession, has good and 
>> bad people, but they are mostly good. They do a difficult job with little 
>> respect and even less thanks. Should we be watchful of there excesses, yes. 
> 
>	I'd have to disagree on the mostly good characterization.  Maybe 
>half and half.  But most I've come across have been rude, arrogant, and 
>power-tripping egotistical types.  I've been watched at gunpoint while 
>ehicles I have ridden in have been searched.  I've seen intimidation 
>tactics in action.  Most have to deal with trying to put down the basical 
>fundamental liberties we have a right to. 
 
	No they do not. Most are just trying to do a tough job. There are 
abuses. To say there aren't is to ignore a serious problem. To lump them 
all together is short-sighted and self-serving. 
 
>> Should we compare them to the Gestapo, no. 
> 
>	Disagree, especially when talking about the specific issue of 
>drugs.  The USA has the highest imprisonment rate in the modern world, 
>specifically because of the war our government is waging on our citizens, 
>the war on drugs.  Gestapo tactics are the _norm_ in this war.  We have 
>millions of political prisoners in our jails from this unjust war. 
 
	Gere, last I knew drugs were illegal substances. Until that is 
changed if you use illegal substances you should expect to pay the 
consequneces. Is the war on drugs a stupid, mostly for the PR act? Yes. 
To call the people in jail political prisoners is trivializiing the plight 
of real politcial prisoners. 
 
>> 	However, I am sure that next week you will post some other equally inane 
>> opinion which will just prove how wrong you are in this one. 
> 
>	Seeing how brainwashed you are, you probably will find the above 
>to qualify as that "inane statement". 
 
	Even though I disagreed with your opinion, I gave you the common 
decency that it was your opinion. Too bad you can't reciprocate and allow 
me my opinions without thinking I am "brainwashed". I have a lot of opinions 
you probably wouldn't like, but I came to them on my own. I was not brainwashed. 
It make make you feel more secure in your view of the world and of me to 
believe that, but it is untrue. Just like your view of the police. 
 
>However, your post was enough for me to realize that paying any attention 
>to you is a waste of time. 
 
	Big surprise there. Anyone who doesn't plug into your worldview 
isn't worth listening to because they might say something that reveals it 
for what it is. 
	As I said, I didn't expect to change you mind or even cause you to 
rethink you opinion. I just refused to let that statement pass without 
commenting on it. 
 
						Ken Crist 
 
The mind of the bigot is like the pupil of the eye; the more light you pour 
upon it, the more it will contract. 
                                        -- Oliver Wendell Holmes 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 11:37:24 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Combat Time (was Players who dont pay attention) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 02:19 PM 5/21/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: Stallard David <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
>Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention 
>Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
> 
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>> 1) The character loses a half phase to assess what's going on. 
>   2) The character gets -2 OCV and -2 DCV for that phase because he was 
>daydreaming. 
>   3) A penalty of -1 experience point is assessed for poor role-playing.< 
> 
>I think I like the first option best.  However, these are all penalties on 
>the character, and it almost never makes sense that the character would not 
>be paying attention in combat (even the example you cited of the character 
>who liked to keep to himself).  When your life or the lives of others are 
>in danger, you don't start daydreaming or wandering aimlessly...your 
>adrenalin races and you are trying to stop the danger or at least get 
>yourself out of harm's way.  Thus, I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense to 
>translate a player's inattentiveness to his character.  That said, I would 
>probably do it anyway, as it's the only way I can think of to encourage the 
>player to stay involved, if it's only to observe the actions of his 
>teammates. 
 
   This is what option #3 is all about.  The character would be paying 
close attention, but the player is wandering off doing other things.  This 
is *way* out of character (unless the character has some sort of attention 
deficiency), and is subject to the appropriate (and by-the-book) experience 
penalty. 
 
>I think player inattentiveness is a symptom, though, not the problem.  The 
>question to ask is, "Why are my players not paying attention when it isn't 
>their turn?"  I put the blame partly on the Hero system, for making combat 
>very methodical and almost like playing a miniatures wargame.  It's hard to 
>get the other players to watch with bated breath while another player 
>measures out inches on a ruler (counts hexes on a map) and plugs that 
>number and others into various formulas.  Of course, I don't know how else 
>to get that level of detail (knockback, utilizing the environment (throwing 
>cars), etc) without all of this mechanical work.  The base problem is that 
>too much time lapses between one player's turn and his next, which provides 
>plenty of opportunity to lose interest in what else is 
>happening--especially if the battle is in two or more clusters where some 
>clusters have no immediate effect on the player's character. 
 
   What you state here are two different roots of the same problem, which 
are related to but still different from the one I was addressing.  For 
convenience, I'll just list them: 
   1. Players not even trying (at least, not very hard) to pay attention. 
   2. The system being too time-consuming. 
   3. Combat that separates into clusters. 
   The first is what I was addressing, but since you didn't address that 
(because we were simply on different wavelengths on the discussion), I 
won't go into it right now. 
   The second is a long-standing complaint about Hero.  Perhaps someone can 
find a way of consolidating all of the options into some sort of "quick" 
formula or method.  The handy-dandy charts on the GM's screen are supposed 
to be one help; the increasing use of computers -- including quick GM's 
utilities, cheap portable  computers, and online gaming -- will help as 
well.  A few people have made "cheat sheets" with all of the options they 
use, and those can be helpful as well; a character sheet could be designed 
that would include the various combat options available to the character 
(in addition to combat maneuvers).  Some things, like counting distance and 
figuring Range Mods, are hard to do anything about, but every little bit 
will help. 
   The third is a situation where I'm less strict about being attentive. 
If one cluster of combat isn't going to affect a character, it's less 
important for the player to pay attention.  For that reason, when this 
happens, I (as GM) have generally divided the players into the same groups 
as their characters, and let them get into their unrelated conversations 
while I'm dealing with the other group.  Thus, when I get into each group, 
I'm disrupting the conversation anyway, and I have the attention of 
everyone in that group (not to mention that the other group is returning to 
their conversation and not getting information that their characters 
wouldn't have about the group I'm dealing with).  This may sound like a 
poor solution, but it actually worked smoothly enough that other GMs in 
that group adopted the practice. 
 
>My group only has 2 players, so player inattentiveness isn't much of a 
>problem.  However, I've been in larger groups (6+ players) and 
>inattentiveness is rampant there...I'm guilty of it myself on many counts.  
>My problem is that the "comic book action" is few and far between all the 
>mechanic talk.  We're playing a superhero game because we like the 
>super-action, but combat goes more like this:   
> 
><rules talk><rules talk><rules talk><rules talk>BLAMMO!<rules talk><rules 
>talk><rules talk><rules talk>WHAP!<rules talk><rules talk><rules talk> 
> 
>When what I hope for is: 
> 
><rules talk>BLAMMO!<rules talk>WHAP!<rules talk>SLAM!<rules 
>talk>CRASH!<rules talk>KA-WHAM!<rules talk> 
> 
>This illustrates two points...the first is the "lack of excitement" which 
>another list member brought up in a recent post.  The second is, in a 
>roundabout way, I've managed to explain why I am reconsidering the Fuzion 
>system.  I'm hoping for a reduction of "rules talk chunks" in between each 
>"action chunk", and I'm trying to decide for myself if Fuzion delivers this 
>without removing too many positives from HSR. 
 
   Yeah, I've generally kinda hit the middle between your two examples; 
rules talk is moderately heavy, but not ridiculous. 
   Generally, each action phase should take: 
   - about 30-60 seconds for a player to decide what to do 
   - anywhere from nothing to a minute, with a general maximum of 3 
minutes, to figure out all the modifiers (depending on how complex the 
action is) 
   - 15-45 seconds to roll and add dice (possibly more if there are 
Required Skill Rolls and such) 
   - 30 seconds to apply defenses to any damage, and damage to stats. 
   That comes to a range of 1:15 to 5:15 for each action phase, and allows 
for math dopes as well as math whizzes.  Assuming that the median (3:15) is 
also the average, that a typical combat takes 8 phases per character (which 
is probably a high estimate), and that a typical fight is 5 on 5, I figure 
that this comes to 2 hours 20 minutes per combat. 
   (Does this sound about right to most folks?) 
 
   On a different note, I have found a faster (but mathematically 
identical) way of calculating the BODY of normal attacks.  You already know 
the number of dice you're rolling, and this is automatically the average 
BODY; just add the number of sixes rolled, and subtract the number of ones. 
 When I switched to this, I found that dice calculation times were cut 
considerably. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 13:49:40 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Champions artists 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On 21 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
>  
> > 	Were you paying attention?  This allows for more impressive feats 
> > than the skill allows, as well as allowing greater speed of climbing. 
>  
> Were you paying attention, Tim?  The limitations on the power in question 
> elimnate 99% of that.  When "requires a skill roll" is tacked on, what is 
> left is... Climbing. 
 
OK, I missed the original power, and I don't know if the archives for this 
list exist or where they are.  What /was/ the original power under 
discussion?  I started under the assumption that it was 'Clinging, RSR 
(Climbing)', possibly with a limitation on the slope that could be 
climbed, but apparently that's not the case. 
 
Could someone repost the original power or tell me where to find it? 
Thanks. 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Police/Gestapo garbage (was Re: Players...) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 14:52:07 -0400 (EDT) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Please take this off list. 
 
Thank you, 
  Joe 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 13:56:10 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Thu, 21 May 1998, Curt Hicks wrote: 
 
>  Gee, that example seems familiar (grin).  I thought about adding some snazzy 
> dialog for the PC, but it wasn't really needed for my point, which was that 
> the 'rules mechanics' part doesn't need to take up that much time for the bare  
> necessities.  The player could spice this up by adding nifty dialog or  
> dramatically describing their action, no argument here.  
 
Well, the original complaint was that 'rules talk' took up too much time - 
assuming that they can't cut the rules talk down any farther, they could 
at least make it more interesting, and thus keep the other players' 
attention. 
 
Actually, most of the 'rules talk' I've seen in Champions is, 'I want to 
do X.' 'You can't do that.' 'Why not? It says right here in the book.' 
'Let me see that - no, that means Y.' 'Well, how would I do X then? 
So-and-so let me do it...' etc. 
 
I assume that with a group of people that plays Champs a lot with a steady 
GM, these sort of things would diminish as players and GM happered out the 
rules interpretations for their campaign. 
 
> I wouldn't penalize a player that did this, I would *reward* a player that  
> 'spiced things up'.  It's negative reinforcement versus positive  
> reinforcement. 
  
Yup.  On the other hand...positive reinforcement doesn't always work - I 
repeatedly offered it in some of my games, but the players never took the 
bait.  
 
> When I was running my game, in addition to experience points, I used a system 
> of 'checks' and 'bars'.  'Checks' were positive, and 'bars' negative.  Using 
> soliloquies / dialog in combat or describing your actions dramatically earned  
> a character checks.  3 checks were equivalent to an experience point. 
 
So what did a bar (or three bars) do? 
 
J, who usually starts to weave a little bit  
   between the second and third bars... 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 14:13:52 -0500 (CDT) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
>  
> Well, the original complaint was that 'rules talk' took up too much time - 
> assuming that they can't cut the rules talk down any farther, they could 
> at least make it more interesting, and thus keep the other players' 
> attention. 
>  
Yep, but I consider that 'characterization/role-playing' no longer <rules talk>. 
 
> Actually, most of the 'rules talk' I've seen in Champions is, 'I want to 
> do X.' 'You can't do that.' 'Why not? It says right here in the book.' 
> 'Let me see that - no, that means Y.' 'Well, how would I do X then? 
> So-and-so let me do it...' etc. 
>  
> I assume that with a group of people that plays Champs a lot with a steady 
> GM, these sort of things would diminish as players and GM happered out the 
> rules interpretations for their campaign. 
>  
I've rarely, if ever run into a situation with rules interpretation during a session.I suppose we fell into the group of players with a steady GM category.  
 
>   
> Yup.  On the other hand...positive reinforcement doesn't always work - I 
> repeatedly offered it in some of my games, but the players never took the 
> bait.  
>  
How ?  Plus sometimes you get so frustrated that your sadistic tendencies cut 
in and you succumb to the darker side, using negative reinforcement.   
 
> > When I was running my game, in addition to experience points, I used a system 
> > of 'checks' and 'bars'.  'Checks' were positive, and 'bars' negative.  Using 
> > soliloquies / dialog in combat or describing your actions dramatically earned  
> > a character checks.  3 checks were equivalent to an experience point. 
>  
> So what did a bar (or three bars) do? 
>  
Bars subtracted from checks.  You could earn bars by trying to run somebody else's 
character, excessive non-game related talk, pissing the GM off, etc. etc.  
 
Curt  
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 15:21:47 -0400 
From: Stallard David <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by Curt Hicks 
>GM: "Laserfire's turn" 
PC: "I fly towards Ogre and fire full power.  I rolled 'x'" 
NOTE:  the player has ALREADY done any 'calculations/formulas' needed. 
GM: "you hit"  
PC: "damage is X stun and Y body" 
GM: "OK.  Ogre sneers, and seems undamaged.  Clawguy's turn"   < 
 
Here's a version of that same sequence in my group: 
 
GM: "Laserfire's turn" 
PC: "I fly towards Ogre and fire full power.  I rolled 'x'" 
GM: "Wait, what's your OCV?"  
<Player references character sheet, applies any modifiers> 
PC: "Uh, it's a 9." 
GM: "Didn't you switch your combat skill levels?" 
PC: "Oh yeah, it's a 10!" 
<GM calculates to-hit number> 
GM: "What did you roll again?" 
PC: "I rolled 'x'" 
GM: "Okay, you hit.  Roll damage." 
<player counts out dice, makes roll> 
PC: "damage is X stun and Y body" 
<GM subtracts Ogre's defense from STUN, applies damage: two math steps> 
GM: "Wait, how much body?" 
PC: "Y body" 
<GM subtracts Ogres defense from BODY, applies damage: two math steps> 
GM: "Okay, roll for knockback." 
PC: "Is it 2d6 minus the BODY, or the BODY minus 2d6?" 
<GM gives correct formula, possibly looking in book to remember 
aerial/martial modifiers> 
PC: "I didn't get any knockback." 
GM: "OK.  Ogre sneers, and seems undamaged." 
<GM references speed chart, calls out DEX until someone responds...also has 
to check all his villains to see if they are up> 
GM: "Okay, Clawguy's turn." 
 
>I don't see where all the <rules talk> keeps coming in.  There MAY be some 
 
silent figuring going on, but the only thing that has to be said out loud 
is the 'in-character action', the roll-to-hit, and the damage.  < 
 
To be honest, I'm not really sure where it comes from, but the fact remains 
that our Champions combat takes forever, and it's at the point where I (as 
GM) am not having any fun running combats.  Maybe it's because my players 
and I are not adding any "spice" (monologues, etc) to the combat.  Who 
knows.... 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Champions artists 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 21 May 1998 15:45:13 -0400 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Sakura  writes: 
 
> Could someone repost the original power or tell me where to find it? 
> Thanks. 
 
I believe it is in The Ultimate Martial Artist (it might be in one of the 
other "ultimate" books, though). 
 
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Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not use Happy Fun Ball on concrete. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
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From: "WG Rowland" <rowland@cts.com> 
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: re: multiple characters per player.. 
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 12:54:27 -0700 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> I think this is about as bad an idea as the GMPC (as opposed to GM run 
> NPCs).. Generally, like the below post, a good player/GM can pull it off, 
> but usually they shift the focus of the game away from the characters.. 
(In 
> the Multiple PC per player case into a bunch of numbers for combat, in a 
> GMPC setup into a game that no longer focuses on the players..) Either 
way, 
> YUCK! 
>  
 
 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:18:47 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by Sakura 
>Actually, most of the 'rules talk' I've seen in Champions is, 'I want to 
do X.' 'You can't do that.' 'Why not? It says right here in the book.' 
'Let me see that - no, that means Y.' 'Well, how would I do X then? 
So-and-so let me do it...' etc.< 
 
I get a lot of these types of delays in my game.  Another reason why I'm 
getting frustrated with always being the GM.  Here's something pretty 
funny...an actual conversation (paraphrased) that has happened in my 
fantasy games more than once.  It should demonstrate the mindset of my 
group (I'd call them munchkins, or at least power-gamers and min-maxers, 
but maybe I'm a munchkin too). 
 
GM: "The task is dangerous, but the Mayor asks for your help to save the 
village." 
Players: "Ok, we'll do it.  Can you give us any magic items to help us?  Or 
how about sending a bunch of soldiers with us?" 
GM: "No..." 
Players: -laughing-  "You're going to send us on a mission to save the town 
and aren't even going to give us any help?" 
GM: <out of character>"You're supposed to be heroes...." 
 
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From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net> 
To: "David Stallard" <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention 
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 15:43:30 -0500 
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Did you say something? I wasn't paying attention. :) 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 13:53:15 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Multiple characters per player 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 02:24 PM 5/21/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: Stallard David <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
>Subject: Multiple characters per player 
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
> 
>This is somewhat of a general Role-Playing question, but here goes.... 
> 
>How do you feel about allowing players to run more than one character at 
>the same time?  As a player, would you like to run more than one character 
>at the same time? 
> 
>I have always been strongly against this, because I feel that having 2 
>characters turns both of them into collections of numbers that you can 
>throw into combat, while having 1 character allows you to have some 
>personality shine through the numbers.  In other words, I've always felt 
>that both characters' personalities are going to suffer because the 
>player's attention is divided.  Additionally, you have a problem when one 
>character knows information that another one doesn't know...since they are 
>both being run by the same player, they are usually going to be VERY 
>cooperative with each other.  I'm not sure that I've worded my concerns 
>very well, but I'd be interested to see what everyone thinks about having 
>multiple characters per player. 
 
   This is something I did in my very first Champions campaign, and while 
it was incredibly successful it's not something I'd widely recommend.  It 
just so happened that all four people involved (myself included in that 
number; we rotated GM-ship in that game) were up to the task of keeping 
multiple characters -- and I mean *characters*, not just number sheets -- 
straight and separate from each other.  I had four characters myself; 
Colleen (my wife) had three; another female had four; and a male had two. 
We could keep their personalities, knowledges, and other bits so distinct, 
in fact, that on one occasion two characters being run by the same player 
got into a serious disagreement and refused to go on missions together for 
quite some time. 
   On the whole, this should only be even considered, at least on a 
long-term basis, if the group is small and consists of particularly 
intelligent and talented role-players who are all interested in doing this. 
   On a short-term basis, it's a little less awkward.  I had one player who 
wanted to change characters, so rather than make a neat (and 
all-too-convenient) transition of letting the first one leave and the 
replacement arrive in the very next story, I let him introduce the new guy 
first, and then two sessions later the old one died heroically.  This 
worked out quite well (at least this part of it; I ended up trading a 
character I enjoyed working with for the most rules-abusive character it's 
ever been displeasure to GM -- but that's a different story entirely). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 15:57:19 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Champions artists 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> > 	Were you paying attention?  This allows for more impressive feats 
> > than the skill allows, as well as allowing greater speed of climbing. 
> 
> Were you paying attention, Tim?  The limitations on the power in question 
> elimnate 99% of that.  When "requires a skill roll" is tacked on, what is 
> left is... Climbing. 
 
	That will still work more reliably, as to no situational penalties 
on the roll, and allow for climbing without normal equipment.  There are 
advantages. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:01:50 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Champions artists 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
> > Were you paying attention, Tim?  The limitations on the power in question 
> > elimnate 99% of that.  When "requires a skill roll" is tacked on, what is 
> > left is... Climbing. 
>  
>         That will still work more reliably, as to no situational penalties 
> on the roll, and allow for climbing without normal equipment.  There are 
> advantages. 
 
 
Ummm.. Tim?   You don't REALLY expect Rat to admit he's wrong do you? 
 
I think this arguement has passed the 'does not, does too, does not, 
does too' stage. 
 
 
Todd 
 
 
--  
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
 Todd Hanson                       Minnesota: Land of two seasons: 
 BadTodd@dacmail.net               winter is coming, winter is here. 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 14:08:11 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Multiple characters per player 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 08:45 AM 5/21/1998 -0600, Curtis Gibson wrote: 
>Stallard David wrote: 
>>  
>> This is somewhat of a general Role-Playing question, but here goes.... 
>>  
>> How do you feel about allowing players to run more than one character at 
>> the same time?  As a player, would you like to run more than one character 
>> at the same time? 
> 
> 
>I've done it as a player, and it can be fun, but there can be problems 
>especially if the characters have a similar personality. 
   [other relavent points along the same lines snipped] 
 
   Good point, Curtis.  Making sure that characters played by the same 
player are contrasting at least in personality, if not in powers as well, 
is another important key in making multiple characters work. 
   In that first Champions campaign I mentioned in my other post under this 
Subject, my four characters were (in order of first appearance): 
 
   1. Captain Photon, a light-based energy projector who had read too many 
comic books when he was a kid ("Now, vile fiend, surrender or face my wrath!") 
   2. The Emerald Eye, a magic-based brick/energy projector who was more of 
a straight heroic/intellectual type ("I'm convinced that this artifact has 
some sort of magical properties, but I've studied it for three days and I 
still can't tell exactly what it does.") 
   3. Mental Man, a mentalist who was, like, *definitely* mental ("Oh, wow, 
man!  I can relate to that!") 
   4. Armor Man, an alien power-armor user who was a "fish out of water" in 
Earth's culture and became known for his humorous faux pas ("They call it a 
soap opera, but I see very little soap and almost no singing.") 
 
   I don't think anyone would've had trouble keeping them straight, and 
Captain Photon guiding Armor Man through the "realities" of prime-time 
television is a tale whose details I wish I could remember today. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:10:59 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention  
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> >	Truthfully, I don't really give a s**t. 
> 
> 	Why am I not surpised that you don't care or that you aren't 
> mature enough to spell out the word shit when you want to use it? 
 
	Actually, I was just shoing politeness to the other members of 
this list who have, in the past, expressed a desire not to see profanity 
on the list.  Sorry if you don't have that maturity level to think about 
the wishes of the rest of the community. 
 
 
> >fundamental liberties we have a right to. 
> 
> 	No they do not. Most are just trying to do a tough job. There are 
> abuses. To say there aren't is to ignore a serious problem. To lump them 
> all together is short-sighted and self-serving. 
 
 Huh?  Were you listening?  I've gotten searched when riding with a friend 
merely because he was a registered gun owner, and they were trying to 
score a "concealed weapons violation".  Maybe you've been in dreamland and 
seen only good cops, but I've seen a lot of bad ones.  At best, the ratio 
is around 50/50.  (Which may very well be better than some other 
professions, however, that isn't the point.) 
 
 
> 	Gere, last I knew drugs were illegal substances. Until that is 
> changed if you use illegal substances you should expect to pay the 
> consequneces. Is the war on drugs a stupid, mostly for the PR act? Yes. 
 
	Nope.  It allows governemnts to get richer through siezed 
property, as well as allowing an excuse for more expenditure on 
"anti-drug" measures.  Arguing that it is justified because they are 
illegal ignores the issue on the justness of the laws themselves.  And we 
are responsible to stand up against unjust laws. 
 
> To call the people in jail political prisoners is trivializiing the plight 
> of real politcial prisoners. 
 
	Not really.  Uusually they are in whatever cell they are in for 
victemless crimes.  Plain and simple.  We have plenty of political 
criminals from drugs, sex, and gambling. 
 
	We also have the more "serious" sort in many African American, 
Hispanic American, and Native American activists thrown in jail on trumped 
up charges. 
 
> 	Even though I disagreed with your opinion, I gave you the common 
> decency that it was your opinion. 
 
	Well, not exactly.  I believe the work "inane" cam up there 
somewhere. 
 
> Too bad you can't reciprocate and allow 
> me my opinions without thinking I am "brainwashed". I have a lot of opinions 
> you probably wouldn't like, but I came to them on my own. I was not brainwashed. 
 
	And you still haven't shown me this.  Although brainwashed is a 
bit strong of a term.  How about "conditioned" by the society we live in. 
 
> It make make you feel more secure in your view of the world and of me to 
> believe that, but it is untrue. Just like your view of the police. 
 
	Well, I see you still keep with the hypocrity.  It's my opinion, 
you give me that, but then say, with no type of proof, that it is, *in 
fact*, untrue.  How is it your opinion became a matter of fact? 
 
> >However, your post was enough for me to realize that paying any attention 
> >to you is a waste of time. 
> 
> 	Big surprise there. Anyone who doesn't plug into your worldview 
> isn't worth listening to because they might say something that reveals it 
> for what it is. 
 
	Nope.  Anyone who is willing to toss a knee-jerk attack because 
his view of a good police force is threatened, then refuses to 
substantiate anything but still expects his words to be taken for fact 
(As compared to my opinion), will indubitibly make a bad debate opponent. 
I've been through the situation before, where the person on the other side 
of the line treats his own statements as indisputible fact and truth 
despite their existence as opinion. 
 
> 	As I said, I didn't expect to change you mind or even cause you to 
> rethink you opinion. I just refused to let that statement pass without 
> commenting on it. 
 
	Well, I already pointed out the mistakes you made.  As it was, 
even I wasn't suggesting thatall police were really gestapo, that's just 
those taking a direct part in the war on drugs.  Of course, once they 
totally abolish the second amendment, look out. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Champions artists 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 21 May 1998 17:18:26 -0400 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Todd Hanson writes: 
 
> Ummm.. Tim?   You don't REALLY expect Rat to admit he's wrong do you? 
 
*sigh* 
 
Read the limitations on the power and draw your own conclusions, rather 
than assuming that the only limitation I am talking about is "requires 
skill roll". 
 
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--  
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
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From: "Pariah" <bkern@primenet.com> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Multiple characters per player 
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 14:52:02 -0700 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
-----Original Message----- 
From: Stallard David <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Cc: [unknown] <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Thursday, May 21, 1998 7:37 AM 
Subject: Multiple characters per player 
 
 
>This is somewhat of a general Role-Playing question, but here goes.... 
> 
>How do you feel about allowing players to run more than one character at 
>the same time?  As a player, would you like to run more than one character 
>at the same time? 
 
It could go either way. Depends a great deal on the player  and on the 
characters. 
 
>I have always been strongly against this, because I feel that having 2 
>characters turns both of them into collections of numbers that you can 
>throw into combat, while having 1 character allows you to have some 
>personality shine through the numbers. 
 
Whenever I play multiple characters, I tend to make their personalities as 
different from each other as possible. This helps to avoid the characters 
overlapping during role playing. 
 
>In other words, I've always felt 
>that both characters' personalities are going to suffer because the 
>player's attention is divided. 
 
Think of how many characters the GM is responsible for maintaining during the 
course of the game. If I, as a gamemaster, allow the npc's to appear weakly 
fleshed, or scatterbrained due to my lack of attention, I expect to be 
skewered by the players. 
 
>Additionally, you have a problem when one 
>character knows information that another one doesn't know...since they are 
>both being run by the same player, they are usually going to be VERY 
>cooperative with each other. 
 
Normally, when I play multiple characters, they tend to wind up as enemies. 
(or they just don't get along) 
 
One of the more memorable times was during a AD&D Taladis game, I was playing 
a Bakali (Lizardman) and a human Swamper (ranger kit). The Bakali hate the 
swampers for their constant intrusion of the Bakali's territory. In turn, the 
swampers are required to choose Bakali as their racial enemy when they reach 
second level. To make matters even more interesting, the Swamper was the only 
one in the party that spoke the Bakali's language. Much fun ensued 
 
"A slipping gear could let your M203 *                  -=Pariah=- 
grenade launcher fire when you least  * 
expect it. That would make you quite *      www.primenet.com/~bkern 
unpopular in what's left of your unit."  *              ICQ UIN: 879171 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 21:53:35 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Vehicles and Acceleration 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Someone, not long ago, posted that my math concerning vehicle acceleration was way off. I can't get to the machine that that post is stored on, and forgot to respond immediately, so here is my response. 
 
Take a vehicle with a Running of 20" and a SPD of 3, and several levels of NCM. The vehicle increases velocity at a rate of 20" per phase. The vehicle has 3 phases per turn, thus 20"x3=60" per Turn. There are 12 segments per Turn, thus 60"/12= 5" per segment, or second. 
 
5" per segment acceleration is the same as 1G, within about 2%. This gives a 0 to 60 MPH rate of 2.7 seconds. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 22:13:44 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Hey, that hero looks familiar 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> From:  champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>  
> >in every supers game I have ever seen, some regular character is one  
> >of the following: 
> > 
> >	The alien/future warrior with an Autodoc, 
> >	The Super-Physician, with his super-med-kit, 
> >	The Thaumaturgical Priest/Priestess with Supernatural Healing, 
> >	The Regenerator, who generally has Usable by Others at 0 DCV, 
> >	The Empath, with a Transfer any of own Characteristics to other. 
>  
> Wow, this was interesting.  In the various Champions games I've run or 
> played in over the past 10-15 years, four of those character types have 
> never appeared at all. 
 
In the past 13 years+ of game mastering, the only character I ever had in a super game with any of these abilities was an NPC I deliberately introduced, partly to be a healer and partly because she was so much fun. 
 
Actually, I think I have never had quite that much fun with an NPC in a regular game before or since. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 15:16:39 -0700 (PDT) 
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To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
This is slightly off topic but how many GMs out there assess additional 
penalties to the Paramedic roll based on the nature of the wound? Like 
trying to treat a massive gunshot wound to the head with a first aid kit or 
less?  
I know violence doesn't solve all problems... 
	But it sure feels good! 
		Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 15:17:53 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention  
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 02:29 PM 5/21/1998 -0400, Ken Crist wrote: 
> 
>>>  My uncle was a homicde detective for several years and I find your 
>>> comment disgusting. 
>> 
>> Truthfully, I don't really give a s**t. 
> 
> Why am I not surpised that you don't care or that you aren't 
>mature enough to spell out the word shit when you want to use it? 
 
   Maybe because he's at least mature enough to censor himself for the sake 
of others who don't care to have that kind of language transmitted into 
their homes. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 15:19:36 -0700 
To: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:43 PM 5/21/1998 -0500, Marc Seebass wrote: 
> 
>Did you say something? I wasn't paying attention. :) 
 
   Dang, somebody beat me to it.... 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 18:19:51 -0400 (EDT) 
From: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net> 
To: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Vehicles and Acceleration 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
Per the BBB page 186: 
 
SPD 
   Vehicles have a SPD, just like characters.  The vehicle's 
SPD controls how often the vehicle moves (not how fast), and 
how often the driver..... 
 
So, this means that the actual 5" per segment of acceleration is actually 
1/4th of the speed that gravity accelerates an object because a car only 
can move 3 phases out of the 12 that an object can fall. 
 
Vehicles move on phases based on the speed characteristic.  This means 
that the vehicle that you are discribing actually accelerates at 5" per 
segment BUT in relationship to only moving "3" times a turn.  SO it 
actually is only speeding up at 1/4th the rate you are thinking it will. 
So the actual time is 2.7 * 4 or 10.8 seconds for 0-60 mph. 
 
Remember they only accelerate each *phase* and move each *phase*, hence 
the relationship is not the same as gravity.   
 
Your car actually would be traveling at 60" per PHASE at the end of the 
turn while an object affected by gravity would be traveling at 60" per 
SEGMENT or second.(If terminal velocity was 60" instead of 30") 
 
Hope this clarifies the question. 
 
David Majors 
 
 
On Thu, 21 May 1998, Filksinger wrote: 
 
> Someone, not long ago, posted that my math concerning vehicle acceleration was way off. I can't get to the machine that that post is stored on, and forgot to respond immediately, so here is my response. 
>  
> Take a vehicle with a Running of 20" and a SPD of 3, and several levels of NCM. The vehicle increases velocity at a rate of 20" per phase. The vehicle has 3 phases per turn, thus 20"x3=60" per Turn. There are 12 segments per Turn, thus 60"/12= 5" per segment, or second. 
>  
> 5" per segment acceleration is the same as 1G, within about 2%. This gives a 0 to 60 MPH rate of 2.7 seconds. 
>  
> Filksinger 
>  
>  
> ____________________________________________________________________ 
> Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
>  
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 15:20:20 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Vehicles and Acceleration 
To: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Filksinger writes: 
> Someone, not long ago, posted that my math concerning vehicle acceleration 
> was way off. I can't get to the machine that that post is stored on, and 
forgot to respond immediately, so here is my response.  
>  
> Take a vehicle with a Running of 20" and a SPD of 3, and several levels of 
> NCM. The vehicle increases velocity at a rate of 20" per phase. The vehicle 
has 3 phases per turn, thus 20"x3=60" per Turn. There are 12 segments per Turn, 
thus 60"/12= 5" per segment, or second.  
>  
> 5" per segment acceleration is the same as 1G, within about 2%. This gives 
> a 0 to 60 MPH rate of 2.7 seconds.  
 
It can, in 4 segments, gain a velocity of 20" _per phase_ -- 5" per segment.  
Thus, in one segment it can gain a velocity of 1.25" per segment, which is 
about 5.5 mph, giving 0-60 acceleration in 11 seconds. 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 15:23:08 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Good/bad cops 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 06:19 PM 5/21/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
>Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
>Subject: Re: Good/bad cops 
>> The police, like every other profession, has good and 
>> bad people, but they are mostly good. They do a difficult job with little 
>> respect and even less thanks. Should we be watchful of there excesses, yes. 
> 
> I'd have to disagree on the mostly good characterization.  Maybe 
>half and half.  But most I've come across have been rude, arrogant, and 
>power-tripping egotistical types.  I've been watched at gunpoint while 
>ehicles I have ridden in have been searched.  I've seen intimidation 
>tactics in action.  Most have to deal with trying to put down the basical 
>fundamental liberties we have a right to. 
 
   Then again, Tim, you live in the Chicago area, where police ethics are 
about two notches above those in New Orleans and approximately on par with 
those of the LAPD.  I know that the police here in Corvallis are extremely 
courteous and authentically concerned with doing the right thing, and I'd 
wager that the cops in Sacramento are well above par (he adds with a heap 
of butter).  Don't judge the entire profession because of the ones in just 
your area. 
 
>> Should we compare them to the Gestapo, no. 
> 
> Disagree, especially when talking about the specific issue of 
>drugs.  The USA has the highest imprisonment rate in the modern world, 
>specifically because of the war our government is waging on our citizens, 
>the war on drugs.  Gestapo tactics are the _norm_ in this war.  We have 
>millions of political prisoners in our jails from this unjust war. 
 
   Don't forget the millions in the cemetaries who arrived after one 
faction of your honest political friends decide that another faction was 
invading their turf.  Or who became overwhelmed with the intensity of their 
beliefs. 
   Yes, one must never forget such martyrs for the cause as Jim Morrison, 
Janis Joplin, John Belushi, River Phoenix.... 
   ...not to mention a couple of people who I've known personally. 
   Victimless crime, indeed. 
 
>>  However, I am sure that next week you will post some other equally inane 
>> opinion which will just prove how wrong you are in this one. 
> 
> Seeing how brainwashed you are, you probably will find the above 
>to qualify as that "inane statement".  However, your post was enough for 
>me to realize that paying any attention to you is a waste of time. 
 
   Frankly, the intensity of this response reeks to me more of brainwashing 
than anything you responded to.  (Though on the whole I'd probably consider 
even that an overly strong assessment; perhaps "propagandized" would be 
more fitting.  I can only hope it isn't "drug-addled.") 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 15:23:25 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Clinging, RSR Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:45 PM 5/21/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Sakura  writes: 
> 
>> Could someone repost the original power or tell me where to find it? 
>> Thanks. 
> 
>I believe it is in The Ultimate Martial Artist (it might be in one of the 
>other "ultimate" books, though). 
 
   TUMA doesn't use RSR on clinging; in Dark Champions, it's: 
 
   Clinging, Requires a Climbing Roll, Cannot Cling to Ceilings (-1/4), 
Cannot Be Used to Resist Knockback (-1/4) 
 
    This still allows for 135 degree inclines, sheer surfaces, 
high-velocity movement, etc. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 15:26:07 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Police/Gestapo garbage (was Re: Players...) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 02:52 PM 5/21/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>Please take this off list. 
 
   Agreed. 
   The post on this subject which accompanies this one is my first, last, 
and only remark on the topic, on or off list (other than this one, of 
course). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 15:47:28 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:16 PM 5/21/1998 -0700, Kim Foster wrote: 
>This is slightly off topic but how many GMs out there assess additional 
>penalties to the Paramedic roll based on the nature of the wound? Like 
>trying to treat a massive gunshot wound to the head with a first aid kit or 
>less? 
 
   1. This doesn't seem off topic at all; it's right on Hero. 
   2. I'm a little lazy for looking it up right now, but I think this 
practice is "by the book." 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 17:59:56 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention  
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>>> Truthfully, I don't really give a s**t. 
>> 
>> Why am I not surpised that you don't care or that you aren't 
>>mature enough to spell out the word shit when you want to use it? 
> 
>   Maybe because he's at least mature enough to censor himself for the sake 
>of others who don't care to have that kind of language transmitted into 
>their homes. 
 
c'mon, Bob!  We all knew exactly what was being said in Tim's "censored" 
comment; if he cared about offending people with such language he'd have 
phrased his comment in a way that didn't require asterisks.  I don't think 
he's entitled to claim any high moral ground here (or have it claimed for 
him, as the case may be). 
 
Damon 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 18:03:09 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Champions artists 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> Read the limitations on the power and draw your own conclusions, rather 
> than assuming that the only limitation I am talking about is "requires 
> skill roll". 
 
 
I DID read the limitations on the power, and I agree with Tim that there 
is a significant difference between the power and the skill. 
 
Just to be sure we are talking about the same limitations: 
 
Clinging, requires a skill roll (climbing), cannot cling to ceilings, 
doesnt resist knockback. 
 
What does this give you that the climbing SKILL does not? 
 
- full movement 
- no need for equipment 
- allows you to climb sheer surfaces that climbing will not 
- no skill roll penalties for difficulty 
 
 
those are just the ones off the top of my head.  given a couple of 
minutes Im sure I could list more. 
 
Obviously there are significant advantages to the power over the skill.  
But, as usual, you would rather argue something to death rather than 
admit that you're wrong. 
 
Doesn't matter to me, I'm just sick of downloading 20 messages a day 
where you repeat yourself. 
 
Todd 
 
 
 
--  
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
 Todd Hanson                       Minnesota: Land of two seasons: 
 BadTodd@dacmail.net               winter is coming, winter is here. 
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
 
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From: Pat10355 <Pat10355@aol.com> 
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 19:13:11 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Die, Thread, Die (was: Re: Players who dont pay attention) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Just when I thought the sub-thread about police and drugs couldn't get any 
more pointless ... 
 
We get to read an argument about who is entitled to put asterisks in cuss 
words. 
 
It's time for this debate to die, or at least go private. 
 
Patrick Sweeney 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 18:28:29 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Robert A. West wrote 
 
< Regardless of actual percentages, a non-trivial number of people who are  
< hit with .38 slugs are beyond help at the moment they are struck.   
< Nevertheless, the system makes it mathematically impossible for a .38  
< (1D6+1RKA) to kill a normal instantly, unless the GM rules essentially by 
 
< fiat that the victim has died. 
 
This may not help, but here is what we do in our FH games:  Almost all 
attacks have an increased damage class (DC).  (The big exception is FH 
weapons, but most people have  extra STR, maneuvers, and combat levels.  So 
the end DC is still much higher than normal.)  I routinely bump up DC 2 & 3 
claws, bites, etc. to DC 4 or higher. 
 
To compensate (and prevent massive PC turnover), we allow liberal healing 
rules, but with the following restrictions: 
1. All "wizardly" healing must take the limitation "can only heal up to 50% 
of the wound -1/2". 
2. All "priestly" spells must take the limitation "can only heal up to 75% 
of the wound -1/4". 
3. Potions and some powers (Paladin lays on hands) can take these 
limitations or not.  If not, they must be restricted in some other way.  
Obviously, potions have limited charges (and players really value them.)  
Laying on hands typically takes charges as well. 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 18:29:51 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Champions artists 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On 21 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> Sakura  writes: 
>  
> > Could someone repost the original power or tell me where to find it? 
> > Thanks. 
>  
> I believe it is in The Ultimate Martial Artist (it might be in one of the 
> other "ultimate" books, though). 
 
I unfortunately have no access to TUMA.  Is the Clinging power there the 
same as in Ninja Hero? 
 
For the record, Ninja Hero doesn't use RSR (Climbing) - it does give two 
-1/4 limitations, sideways movement is 1/2 ground movement and no ceiling 
movement or angles less than 80 degrees.  However, even if it /did/ have 
RSR (Climbing), the power would be very different than the Climbing skill 
itself, simply because it removes any and all penalties relating to the 
surface being climbed (i.e. for lack of handholds, slick surface, etc) 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 18:51:53 -0500 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: Re: Multiple characters per player 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>How do you feel about allowing players to run more than one character at 
>the same time?  As a player, would you like to run more than one character 
>at the same time? 
 
I have what may be a common double-standard attitude toward this; as a 
player I enjoy running more than one character at a time, but as a GM I 
don't usually encourage it.  I think your concerns were worded clearly 
enough, and they're entirely valid for the majority of players, especially 
new ones (though many oldtimers can't pull it off, and a few newbies can). 
 
Echoing Mike Christodoulou, I'd have to say that I enjoy it because it gets 
me more play time; if not more within a single game, at least I'm assured 
of having something to do in each session.  Sometimes a session goes by 
with no combat; if you're mostly a combat specialit, that can be boring, 
and result in Players Not Paying Attention.  Yes, balanced characters are 
the best way to handle this.  Yes, a good GM will provide a balanced game 
so everyone can participate.  But the GM doesn't have complete control over 
the action, so sometimes individual characters will get left out because of 
what the group decided to do, rather that what the GM had planned.  No, I 
am not recommending multiple characters as a particularly good way to 
handle this.  I is usually best if you have multiple characters per player 
in the same campaign, and NOT run them at the same time, but often you want 
a group of 4-7 characters, and you only have 2-3 players, so... 
 
I have yet to run more than two at a time in a Hero game, though I've run 
as many as four (plus followers, eventually) at a time in AD&D.  That 
extreme case was in a game than ran weekly, probably 45 weeks out of the 
year anyway, for about 5 years.  The GM and two of the players lived under 
the same roof, and most of the other players were transient military or 
students.  I ran a bard, a paladin, a magicuser and a monk (three of them 
female) and gradually worked them all up to 10th-12th level, with all but 
the mage acquiring followers by then.  The followers were run primarily as 
NPCs, of course, though the DM let us roll for them in combat so he wasn't 
fighting on both sides.  I never had any trouble keeping them apart, nor 
did anyone else.  Elyse, Alexandra, Beryl and Chao Ling all had very 
distinct personalities and agendas. 
 
In a Palladium game, I ran two characters and screwed up the roleplaying at 
one point, but it made for interesting character development later on.  I 
had a Psi Sensitive character jump onto the back of a demon with two lit 
sticks of dynamite, knowing that Father Kazlauric had a spell memorized 
that would keep him from taking damage from the blast.  Having already 
announced the action, I then realized that Lamont and Father K had not 
conferred on what spells the priest had that day, nor was their going to be 
time to work it out now that Lamont had made his leap.  Oops.  I 
rationalized this later by working out a weird personality trait for 
Lamont.  He's sensitive to magic and supernatural evil already by virtue of 
being a Psi Sensitive; we agreed that based on this reckless action, the 
group would now discover that in the presence of high levels of magic or 
supernatural evil (like a demon), he becomes irrational.  Made for some 
interesting roleplaying later on, as I said. 
 
Damon 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Multiple characters per player 
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 19:22:04 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Stallard David wrote: 
>  
> This is somewhat of a general Role-Playing question, but here goes.... 
>  
> How do you feel about allowing players to run more than one character at 
> the same time?  As a player, would you like to run more than one 
character 
> at the same time? 
 
We rarely allow multiple characters playing at one time, but almost all 
players have backup characters that they play occasionally instead of their 
main ones. 
 
When we really need multiple characters in a given session, the house rule 
is that one character is designated primary, and only he can gain 
experience for role-playing, problem solving, etc.  The secondary character 
can only get the 1-3 points for the base adventure.  This is also true for 
when the players temporarily take over an NPC.  It's kind of backwards, 
since a player might do really well role-playing the NPC, but get points 
for his PC because of it.  On the other hand, it's a good incentive to try 
:-) 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 17:40:49 -0700 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Jim Dickinson <jdickins@oregonsbest.com> 
Subject: Re: Editor Found? 
Cc: Bruce Harlick <BruceHH@aol.com&> brucehh@earthlink.com 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Is the list really the place for you to be discussing "stuff" like this? 
Or was it your hope to add some emphasis to your email by bringing it into 
"public light"?...kind of like writing a letter to a company via the Op/Ed 
page in the local paper? 
 
At 02:51 PM 5/18/98 -0400, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
>Dear Hero Games, 
> 
>has any progress been made in finding an editor for Kazei Five? 
> 
>Also, will any of you be in the Maryland area this year for any sort of 
>gaming con?  I'd like to meet with you it that will be so. 
> 
>Thanks,  
> 
>Michael Surbrook 
> 
>*************************************************************************** 
>* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
>*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
>*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at: 
*    
>*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
>*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
>* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
>*************************************************************************** 
>  
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 20:47:31 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Editor Found? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Thu, 21 May 1998, Jim Dickinson wrote: 
 
> Is the list really the place for you to be discussing "stuff" like this? 
> Or was it your hope to add some emphasis to your email by bringing it into 
> "public light"?...kind of like writing a letter to a company via the Op/Ed 
> page in the local paper? 
 
Uh, no.  This is called typing in the Hero alias and then realizing that 
alias sends stuff to the Hero Mailing List and not to Herogames@aol.com. 
I take it then, that you've *never* made a mistake typing? 
 
And yes, I did look at this message wondering how it ended up coming back 
to me before realizing what I'd done.   
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
*              http://www.access.digex.net/~susano/index.html             * 
*            Attacked Mystification Police / AD Police / ESWAT            * 
* Society for Creative Anachronism / House ap Gwystl / Company of St.Mark * 
*************************************************************************** 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Perfectly Rational Things the PCs Should Never Do 
Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 19:52:50 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
David Stallard wrote: 
 
<I get a lot of these types of delays in my game.  Another reason why I'm 
<getting frustrated with always being the GM.  Here's something pretty 
<funny...an actual conversation (paraphrased) <snip> 
 
<GM: "The task is dangerous, but the Mayor asks for your help to save the 
<village." 
<Players: "Ok, we'll do it.  Can you give us any magic items to help us?  
Or 
<how about sending a bunch of soldiers with us?" 
<GM: "No..." 
<Players: -laughing-  "You're going to send us on a mission to save the 
town 
<and aren't even going to give us any help?" 
<GM: <out of character>"You're supposed to be heroes...." 
 
I get some of this two, although of a different type.  I finally gave out a 
(vebal) list of "Perfectly Rational Things the PCs Should Never Do In My 
Game."  As can be seen, each GM needs there own list.  Here's a couple of  
examples: 
 
"Never split up the party, unless forced by the action or splitting up is 
essential."  The reason is that I, as a GM can handle 8 players in one 
group just fine, but cannot handle 2 players split for more than a few 
minutes.  It's just a personal failing as a GM that I long ago learned to 
live with. 
 
"If the NPC starts talking in a monotone, says I don't know, etc., there is 
no more information to be had from him."  I simply got tired of every NPC 
being pumped for every dreg of info, and having to role-play the varied and 
horrible ensuing reactions. 
 
These things are somewhat of a joke in our group now, to the point that 
they are rarely a problem.  Of course, your milage WILL vary. 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 18:06:14 -0700 
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
From: Jim Dickinson <jdickins@oregonsbest.com> 
Subject: Re: Lurking in web games 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:25 AM 5/8/98 -0400, David Stallard wrote: 
> 
>What I'd like to see is just a general synopsis of each turn (if an email 
>game) or session (if a face-to-face game).   
 
It's not much, but it is a short summary of 18 turns of my long-gone game: 
http://www.oregonsbest.com/~jd/nc/ncsummary.html 
 
>I don't really want to read it 
>in short story form, which seems to be the common trend, because there's a 
>lot of fluff and it takes longer.  
 
I know what you are getting at, but since role-playing is all about "story 
telling", and GMs already go through enough just getting the 
short-story-turns written, I think you will find it a very rare thing to 
see a game with a summary as detailed as your example AND the story turn. 
;-)   
 
However, there are a couple of sites in the Circle of HEROs that are 
web-versions of their face-to-face games, and there are some summaries 
there, IIRC. 
 
 
http://www.webring.org/cgi-bin/webring?ring=coh;list 
 
Good luck! 
 
Jim Dickinson 
 
http://www.oregonsbest.com/~jd 
jdickins@oregonsbest.com 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other  
languages, it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits  
them over the head, and goes through their pockets.  
                        -- Eddy Peters 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 18:36:01 -0700 
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:18 PM 5/21/98 -0400, David Stallard wrote: 
 
>GM: "The task is dangerous, but the Mayor asks for your help to save the 
>village." 
>Players: "Ok, we'll do it.  Can you give us any magic items to help us?  Or 
>how about sending a bunch of soldiers with us?" 
>GM: "No..." 
>Players: -laughing-  "You're going to send us on a mission to save the town 
>and aren't even going to give us any help?" 
>GM: <out of character>"You're supposed to be heroes...." 
> 
 
Gee, can I have your players? Mine have just decided that rather than 
simply rescue the DNPC they came for, they're going to free the entire (50 
million+) population of the world and destroy the Evil Alien Superweapon 
TM.  
 
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Subject: Clinging/Climbing 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Todd Hanson writes: 
 
> I DID read the limitations on the power, and I agree with Tim that there 
> is a significant difference between the power and the skill. 
 
Then *WHY* the "requires a skill roll" limitation?  What purpose does it 
serve other than to make this particular power cost less? 
 
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Version: 2.6.3a 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Ingredients of Happy Fun Ball include an 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ unknown glowing substance which fell to 
                                    \ Earth, presumably from outer space. 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 23:05:25 -0400 
From: boaters <boaters@mindspring.com> 
To: champs mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Hey, that hero looks familiar 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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There have only been three such players that always seemed to end up in our 
campaigns. 
 
1.) The invisible thief who could carve out a statue with her/his knife 
abilities.  This one has come back no matter what the genre, sex, or alien race 
etc.  This guy always plays one of these characters even in a hero game!!!  That 
session was very short lived as he was arrested for making a pin cushion out of a 
NORMAL bad guy.  Sheesh! 
 
2.)The next player was one that always played a character with a brooding mood, 
some sort of shadow/invisible power, claws, and some tragic accident that killed 
his girlfriend.  Most of us just get depressed listening to the made up story of 
what happened to his girlfriend.  (On a side note a new player who did not know or 
know what to expect from this player thought one of the stories was real and was 
nearly in tears at the end of the story.) 
 
3.)  The third type is the "fish out of water" alien with ultimate power, usually 
represented by a VPP.  This guy is our normal gm, and he is one of the best gms 
that I have ever had, but as a player he is one of the worst.  He is very much a 
power monger and is one of the most devastating players that I as a gm have ever 
had to deal with.  (Anyone else have the problem of awesome gm sucky player?) 
 
These are the three that always pop up in our campaigns. 
 
Darin 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 23:05:30 -0400 
From: boaters <boaters@mindspring.com> 
To: champs mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Multiple characters per player 
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Stallard David wrote: 
 
> This is somewhat of a general Role-Playing question, but here goes.... 
> 
> How do you feel about allowing players to run more than one character at 
> the same time?  As a player, would you like to run more than one character 
> at the same time? 
 
I feel that if it can be avoided that it should.  However, I also think that 
this should certainly be an alternative to having to quit a game.  I have done 
this a few times and the results are thus: 
 
at a convention:  This is where I find that it happens the most.  I have done 
this at many converntions and I have found that it is usually very difficult 
to seperate the two characters.  In most cases, the characters have known each 
other for some time and are adept at working with each other so that it does 
not cause too much of a problem, but it does kind of take away from the fun. 
 
in a long term game:  In a long term game, this has not been so bad.  The one 
thing that we did in cases like this was to make sure that anytime the two 
characters had to speak or interact with each other, the gm played one or the 
other.  This, in the beginning does not always work, but once the character 
has been fleshed out, it is much easier for the gm to do.  It does make for 
some interesting role-playing, but you do have to be careful about which 
character has what information.  The one tip that I can give is to make sure 
that they have very different driving forces. 
 
in a short term game (4-5 sessions): pretty much the same results as above, 
except there is not as much time to develop the characters and the development 
that does happen gets split between the two making it more difficult to even 
develop one of them. 
 
My favorite thing to do, however, is to make a character tree.  This is great 
for any game which has players who get bored with characters if they are 
static for a little while.  What you do is make five characters to the 
specification of the game.  You have one active character, and four inactive 
characters.  While your active character is doing things your other characters 
are out doing other things that do not bring them into contact, or if they do 
in an npc role.  The xp goes to the active character, and then take the same 
xp and divide by four and that is what is given to the inactive characters. 
The player may switch characters at any major stopping point/turning point or 
at a character death.  The advantages are that the players do not get bored 
with their characters, nor do they fall behind too badly in the xp 
department.  Also, if in the event a character dies, you can immediately bring 
in another character that is already related to that specific campaign world. 
(I believe that this was originally found in the Dark Sun game from TSR.) 
The only disadvantages that I have found in doing this, is getting players who 
do one of these two things. 
 
1.)  All five characters are alike--I had one player who was trying to 
convince me that they were quintuplets and all had the same attitude, powers, 
feelings etc. etc.  I made a house rule right there that the characters must 
differ. 
2.) Player wants to switch every session---  this was at first difficult until 
I started to see that this player was just going to switch every session.  He 
soon found that it was very boring to be making his way across the world to 
join the party every session instead of doing what the party was doing. 
Furthermore, the party tossed out this wandering character for always leaving 
the party without reason. (Why should they trust someone who was always 
leaving them when another showed?)  He soon got the gist and kept to one 
character until it was at a point where a switch was feasable. 
 
Hope this has helped at least a little. 
 
Darin 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 23:25:22 -0400 
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Hey, that hero looks familiar 
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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> What would the rest of you say are the character concepts most often 
> repeated in your campaigns/game groups? 
 
Interesting question. Frankly, there do tend to be a lot of 
healers/regenerators in the group I play with, mainly because the GM has 
acquired the reputation of hitting the PCs with HUGE attacks (a rep he 
feels is undeserved, BTW). On at least two separate occasions, his villains 
have reduced one of my characters (who had the rep of being one of the 
hardest to kill heroes in the campaign) down to -10 BODY (he had 12 BODY to 
start) in a single shot! 
 
Other than that, I can't think of concepts that get repeated a lot, 
although each individual player tends to have their own personal 
character-creation quirks. My own tend to be super strength (rarely less 
than 30, regardless of concept), and flight (probably 3 out of every 4 of 
my characters fly, though that number is dropping). 
 
Jeff Reid 
Morfhis@compuserve.com 
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 23:25:27 -0400 
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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> Gee!  Aren't you one of the people who is always reminding me to think  
> cinematically, and not so realistically?  :-) 
 
The irony HAD occurred to me, but you DID specify "real world." :-)  
 
 
> Seriously, I should have been more careful to distinguish between being  
> clinically dead and being beyond help. 
 
Very good point! Let me get back to this later! 
 
 
> Nevertheless, the system makes it mathematically impossible for a .38  
> (1D6+1RKA) to kill a normal instantly, unless the GM rules essentially by 
 
> fiat that the victim has died. 
 
True. Even if you use the optional hit location rules, the maximum damage 
that can be done by that attack is 14 BODY, and even if you assume that a 
"normal" has 8 BODY rather than 10, the maximum damage will still be 2 
turns away from the point of no return. 
 
Personally, this is good enough for me. The 8 BODY normal who takes 14 BODY 
is at -6, giving a -3 to any Paramedics roll. This even assumes that a 
skilled medic can reach the victim in the 24 second window of opportunity. 
 
 
> Despite what people have said about the impairing rules, they offer  
> nothing more than an excuse for GM fiat in this regard, and I prefer to  
> minimize GM fiat 
 
I've never liked the impairing/disabling rules. On the other hand -- and 
I'm surprised no one has brought it up yet -- the Bleeding rules show 
promise if you want to reflect a more gritty, realistic genre; any wound, 
even 1 BODY, becomes potentially life-threatening. 
 
 
> Under the rules, a normal victim who is dying cannot linger more than two 
 
> minutes (-0 to -10 BODY).  Many victims (again, I don't have statistics,  
> and decline to venture another percentage guess) linger far longer 
 
Also true. Maybe if BODY loss worked on the Time Chart instead of 1 BODY 
per Turn, it would reflect this... hmm, a character with 10 BODY, reduced 
to 0, would then take a decade to die. Okay, maybe not :-). If it was 2 
BODY per level on the Time chart, then the same person would linger for 
about 5 hours. 
 
(Before anyone flames me, I'm just thinking out loud here, not proposing 
any rule changes!) 
 
Anyway, back to the point I skipped over above, namely the difference 
between being clinically dead and being beyond help. On the one hand, it 
might be possible for a character to be "clinically dead" before he reaches 
-10 BODY -- the vital signs have ceased but he can still be revived with a 
Paramedic roll at sufficient penalties, or by the application of some sort 
of healing power. This could be used by the GM to heighten tension. 
 
On the other hand --and this is the thing that got me so excited before -- 
who's to say that the character who has reached -10 BODY is actually dead 
yet? Sure, he's beyond help (Healing powers and Paramedic rolls would be 
useless, except perhaps to give the victim a few more moments of life), but 
the character might linger on long enough to pass on some cryptic last 
words to the PCs. 
 
Jeff Reid 
Morfhis@compuserve.com 
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 23:25:32 -0400 
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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> >This is slightly off topic but how many GMs out there assess additional 
> >penalties to the Paramedic roll based on the nature of the wound? Like 
> >trying to treat a massive gunshot wound to the head with a first aid kit 
or 
> >less? 
>  
>    1. This doesn't seem off topic at all; it's right on Hero. 
>    2. I'm a little lazy for looking it up right now, but I think this 
> practice is "by the book." 
 
Actually, I <THINK> the book-rule is that penalties are assessed only after 
the victim is below 0 BODY. In any case, I don't think anyone would contest 
the fact that the GM has the right to apply any situational modifiers 
he/she deems fit and proper, although as a player, I would be a little 
miffed if the GM ruled that a 4 BODY wound to the head was harder to treat 
than a 4 BODY wound to the shoulder or leg. 
 
Jeff Reid 
Morfhis@compuserve.com 
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm 
 
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Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 23:40:40 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Lizard wrote: 
>  
> Gee, can I have your players? Mine have just decided that rather than 
> simply rescue the DNPC they came for, they're going to free the entire (50 
> million+) population of the world and destroy the Evil Alien Superweapon 
> TM. 
 
Heh, now THAT sounds familiar.  And of course, you can NEVER convince 
them that the 5 of them have NO chance of defeating an army of 3 
billion... 
 
Of course, letting them TRY could be fun, but it would probably spell 
the end of your campaign... 
 
 
Todd 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 00:11:51 -0500 
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This is our take on death and dying.  I realize this is not standard rules, 
but it works for our FH game--kind of a cross between cinematic and 
realistic: 
 
- Positive Body:  Functioning fully (i.e. no impairing rules) 
- 0 to 1 higher than normal Hero Death:  Not functioning very well.  This 
could be dying.  Or it could be a really bad concussion combined with a 
broken arm.  Doesn't really matter.  In fact, every player can define for 
themselves what would take their character out of the fight.  When you hit 
this stage, then that is what happened to you.  The only thing a character 
can do his talk (weakly), drink a potion (if handy), bandage own wounds, or 
similar action. 
- Negative original BODY:  Coma.  Character must make a CON roll (at a 
minus) every turn, or die, until stabilized (by healing magic).  
 
Note that the above is just for slowly "dying" characters.  If you are at 
death's door already, and someone walks over and sticks a sword in, it's 
all over--CON roll or not. 
 
One of our best fights ever concluded with 3 of 4 PCs down.  The remaining 
character awakenened from being knocked-out with 3 enemies still standing.  
With the last three charges of her autofire wand, she took down the 
remaining enemy leader.  Seeing her rise and the leader go down, the other 
2 both failed their morale rolls and fled.  (They had lost 2 leaders and 5 
friends).  This took all of her END.  She used her remaining paltry STUN as 
END to crawl to the party healer and pour the last healing potion down the 
healer's throat--just before passing out again.  This got the healer back 
to 1 BODY.  She (still in combat time), managed to reach the other two, 
successfully cast 2 healing spells, and stabilize them just before coma 
stage.  This knocked her out.  Closest I ever game to wiping out an entire 
party while playing Hero--and they all lived.  And I didn't cheat a single 
roll. 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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From: "R Kemp" <baron@mail.stlnet.com> 
To: "Champs" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Players who don't pay attention  
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 00:42:41 -0500 
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> 
> >>     Yeah, and it's illegal.  Just call the cops next time, 
> they will stop. 
> >> *Evil maniacal laugh*-- 
> > 
> >	Now, now.  Calling and cooperating with the American Gestapo is no 
> >way to maintain our individual freedoms. 
> > 
> >				-Tim Gilberg 
> 
> 	My uncle was a homicide detective for several years and I find your 
> comment disgusting. The police, like every other profession, has good and 
> bad people, but they are mostly good. They do a difficult job with little 
> respect and even less thanks. Should we be watchful of there 
> excesses, yes. 
> Should we compare them to the Gestapo, no. 
> 	I know that this response will mean nothing to you. You 
> have categorized 
> the police as being repressive government arm whose sole intent 
> is to eradicate 
> your individual liberty. Nothing will change your opinion. But I will not 
> let that opinion be voiced here in this mailing list without 
> pointing out that 
> not everyone shares your low opinion of the police nor do they 
> agree with your 
> associating them with a group whose very nature is abhorrent. If 
> the police in our 
> country were like the Gestapo, within a few days of voicing your 
> opinion of 
> them in a public forum I would expect you to disappear from this 
> mailing list 
> never to be heard from again. 
> 	However, I am sure that next week you will post some other 
> equally inane 
> opinion which will just prove how wrong you are in this one. 
> 
> 						Ken Crist 
> 
Dear Sirs, 
I write in protest of the following letter in that it was written in 
protest. These letters of protestation do little good and are a waste of 
band-width. Why if I could strike dead all those who write letters of 
protest, I would.... oh wait... *ACK!* .......*Gleck!* *GASP!* *Unh.* 
But seriously, folks. Ken, your righteous anger is duly noted and ignored. 
The reason is you took it out of context and assumed that is Mssr. Gilberg's 
only opinion of the police. I believe (giving Mr. Gilberg the BENEFIT OF THE 
DOUBT which is what everyone should do before firing off a frankly 
ridiculous letter of moral outrage)that Mr. Gilberg was making a JOKE and I 
also firmly believe he does not think he is living in Nazi Germany. So to 
Ken, I say. LIGHTEN UP! Or we'll send the Gestapo after you. 
 
Signed, Sir Reginald Briefcase Kumquat Lavender Soapdish, esq. Retired 
 
(Not really....just me, Rob) 
 
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From: "R Kemp" <baron@mail.stlnet.com> 
To: "Champs" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Die, Thread, Die (was: Re: Players who dont pay attention) 
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 00:52:45 -0500 
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> -----Original Message----- 
> From: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org [mailto:owner-champ-l@sysabend.org]On 
> Behalf Of Pat10355 
> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 1998 6:13 PM 
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
> Subject: Die, Thread, Die (was: Re: Players who dont pay attention) 
> 
> 
> Just when I thought the sub-thread about police and drugs couldn't get any 
> more pointless ... 
> 
> We get to read an argument about who is entitled to put asterisks in cuss 
> words. 
> 
> It's time for this debate to die, or at least go private. 
> 
> Patrick Sweeney 
> 
 
C'mon Patrick, I was hoping to get them into a debate about which was 
better: Mac or Apple and then go into the existence of God. Darn! 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 02:20:31 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Inter-plug-in balance 
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<< Hero's mechanics are just as consistant as Fuzions, arguably moreso.  If 
you or they have a specific instance of disagreement, present it. >> 
 
  Preferably in private e-mail and not on the list. The last thing I want to 
do is have to go wading through dozens of e-mails a day from the list for what 
amounts to little more than "yet another HvF argument. :/ 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@early.com> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Perfectly Rational Things the PCs Should Never Do 
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 02:35:17 -0400 
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(material snipped) 
 
> "If the NPC starts talking in a monotone, says I don't know, etc., 
there is 
> no more information to be had from him."  I simply got tired of 
every NPC 
> being pumped for every dreg of info, and having to role-play the 
varied and 
> horrible ensuing reactions. 
>  
> These things are somewhat of a joke in our group now, to the point 
that 
> they are rarely a problem.  Of course, your milage WILL vary. 
>  
> Steven Mitchell 
> mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
I once ran an AD&D campaign where one player would routinely 
interrogate at length every NPC he could lay his hands on.  I got fed 
up with this, so with the next guard he grabbed while the party was 
infiltrating an enemy stronghold, the poor guard had had his tongue 
cut out for a past breach of discipline.  That became S.O.P. with my 
group for a time-wasting interrogation, and one of my group's 
favorite in-jokes. 
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 01:40:28 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7 
Reply-To: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Babylon 5 Weapons 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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I've been converting over weapons for Babylon 5 and wanted to run a few 
things past the list. 
 
PPG's project plasma in a magnetic 'sheath'.  The wounds seem to be 
extreme burning over a localized area, and the plasma bolts will even burn 
through armor designed to stop them, harming the wearer unless he removes 
the armor.  So I'm giving it a +1 Stun mod to reflect the pain and shock 
from the wound.  These weapons also seem to have reduced penetration v. 
'hard' targets.  Instead of clips PPG's are powered by caps that provide 
the energy for it's shots. 
 
Narn Weapons: 
	Narn society is militaristic and austere for the most part and the 
design of their weapons tends to reflect this.  They are also probably the 
least advanced technologcally of the big four races. 
 
Narn Katak  +1 OCV  1 1/2D6 KA  StrMin: 13  1 1/2 Hand 
	A weapon of honor similar to a katana and used with the Narn 
martial art Katak'eth (Presumably similar to Kenjutsu).  Once the Katak is 
drawn, it must draw blood before being sheathed again.  Difficult to find 
outside Narn. 
 
Narn Kalat Avenger PPG Pistol 2D6-1 RKA StrMin: 5, +1 StunMod, 10shots/cap 
	The standard smallarm of the Narn Regime, rugged and easy to 
maintain.  The rulebook for B5 States they are rarely sold outside the 
Regime, but given the Narn's reputation as weapon dealers it seems more 
likely this weapon would be fairly common. 
 
Centauri Weapons: 
	Much like the Centauri themselves, their weapons often appear 
extravagent and less than practical.  But their level of tech is second 
only to the Minbari, so it's eccentric appearance can be deceiving. 
 
Centauri Coutari  +1 OCV  1D6 KA  StrMin: 8 
	Used with the Centauri fighting art of the same name, the Coutari 
looks very much like an Roman Gladius short sword.  Coutari the art 
places a high value on honor and ritualistic form in duals. 
 
Centauri Tromo PPG Pistol  2D6 RKA StrMin: 5 +1 StunMod 20 shots/Cap 
	The Tromo would fit in perfectly at the Court of Ming the 
Merciless in an old Flash Gorden movie, rather ornately designed with a 
slim barrel and bulbs in front and back.  But it's as effective as a 
Earthforce PPG and carries more shots per cap. 
 
Earthforce Weapons: 
	Though the Earthforce military suffered greatly in the Minbari 
War, they have no shortage of small arms and in this area they match 
anything not Minbari 
 
Auricon EF-7 PPG Pistol  2D6 RKA StrMin: 5  15shots/cap +1 StunMod 
	Relatively small and easily concealed, the EF-7 is the main 
sidearm of Earthforce and the most frequently seen PPG in Babylon 5. 
Roughly the size of a Walther PPK, and silver in color. 
 
Auricon EF-PR  PPG Rifle  2 1/2D6 RKA, StrMin: 10 8shots/cap +1 StunMod 
	Normally only broken out on B5 for major problems, like enemy 
boarding actions.  By the book it only has 8 shots per cap, but that seems 
a little strange to me so I might up that. 
 
 
Minbari Weapons: 
	The most technologically advanced of the Younger Races, Minbari 
weapons are -very- rarely found outside the possession of them.  Which is 
just as well since they are the best weapons money can buy...if you can 
find one. 
 
Minbari Fighting Pike +1 OCV (4D6) StrMin: 10 +1" reach  
	The name presumably is a translation, since the weapon actually 
resembles a staff rather than a pike.  Collapsable to the size of a roll 
of quarters with the push of a button.  The pike is traditionally used 
with the Minbari fighting art Denn'na (similar to bojutsu). 
 
Minbari Sha'ann PPG Pistol  2 1/2D6 RKA, StrMin: 5, +1 StunMod, 0 End. 
	The Sha'ann is the standard light firearm of the Minbari, 
restricted to use only by the warrior caste and never sold to outsiders. 
It is unique among the PPG weapons not only for the level of damage it 
inflicts but for it's effectively unlimited number of charges.  It can be 
fired thousands of times without reloading. 
 
Any comments or questions are welcome. 
 
 
 
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From: "potroast@theoven" <darkwraith@worldnet.att.net> 
To: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net&> 
        "David Stallard" <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention 
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 01:44:25 -0500 
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---------- 
> From: Marc Seebass <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net> 
> To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
> Cc: [unknown] <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
> Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention 
> Date: Thursday, May 21, 1998 3:43 PM 
>  
>  
> Did you say something? I wasn't paying attention. :) 
 
This sounds very familiar ;) 
 
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From: "potroast@theoven" <darkwraith@worldnet.att.net> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" <griffin@txdirect.net> 
Subject: *sigh* Re: Players who dont pay attention  
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 01:49:56 -0500 
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Boys, can we please take that outside. 
---------- 
> From: Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin <griffin@txdirect.net> 
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
> Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention  
> Date: Thursday, May 21, 1998 5:59 PM 
>  
> >>> Truthfully, I don't really give a s**t. 
> >> 
> >> Why am I not surpised that you don't care or that you aren't 
> >>mature enough to spell out the word shit when you want to use it? 
> > 
> >   Maybe because he's at least mature enough to censor himself for the 
sake 
> >of others who don't care to have that kind of language transmitted into 
> >their homes. 
>  
> c'mon, Bob!  We all knew exactly what was being said in Tim's "censored" 
> comment; if he cared about offending people with such language he'd have 
> phrased his comment in a way that didn't require asterisks.  I don't 
think 
> he's entitled to claim any high moral ground here (or have it claimed for 
> him, as the case may be). 
>  
> Damon 
>  
> |--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
> |****************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs *******************| 
> |--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
> |Damon & Peni's homepages: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3401/     | 
> |   Children's Books -- Dolls -- X-Files -- Pulp Magazines           | 
> |       Worthy Causes -- Computer -- Atlanta -- All Human Knowledge  | 
> |--------------------------------------------------------------------| 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 02:53:21 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Champions artists 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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<< Were you paying attention, Tim?  The limitations on the power in question 
elimnate 99% of that.  When "requires a skill roll" is tacked on, what is 
left is... Climbing. >> 
 
  Why do you people have to get so darned argumentative and insulting?? 
 
  Rat, Requires a Skill Roll does not eliminate the ability to cling to a 
surface upside-down, like a ceiling. Can't do that very eaily with just plain 
Climbing. Requires a Skill Roll does not eliminate the increased movement that 
comes with Clinging. 
 
  See where the other person is coming from? 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 03:11:27 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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<< Then *WHY* the "requires a skill roll" limitation?  What purpose does it 
serve other than to make this particular power cost less? >> 
 
  The ninja of feudal Japanese lore had the ability to climb walls and press 
themselves against ceilings and such, using tiny handholds. TYhis was an 
advanced skill in climbing, and not a "super power," per se'. This could be 
well simulated by buying "Clinging, Requires Skill Roll." 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Champions artists/climing 
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 17:42:54 +1000 
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---------- 
 
>   Rat, Requires a Skill Roll does not eliminate the ability to cling to a 
> surface upside-down, like a ceiling. Can't do that very eaily with just 
plain 
> Climbing. Requires a Skill Roll does not eliminate the increased movement 
that 
> comes with Clinging. 
>  
>   See where the other person is coming from? 
>  
>   Mark @ GRG 
 
i think rat is suggesting that if you use a skill, as the roll of a power,  
then all the effects of the skill must be taken into account. this sounds 
more 
like 'linked' to me, and literal-minded in a way which is antithetical to 
the HERO style of power construction. Frankly I see no problem with the 
lateral thought involved with useing the 'climbing' skill to roll for a 
power. A skill is constructed as you want it to be. If your tactics is spce 
combat, fine. if it's one-on-one, fine. Same goes fro skills which extend 
into power use as suggested.  
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 02:59:50 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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> > I DID read the limitations on the power, and I agree with Tim that there 
> > is a significant difference between the power and the skill. 
> 
> Then *WHY* the "requires a skill roll" limitation?  What purpose does it 
> serve other than to make this particular power cost less? 
 
	We are really going in circles here, aren't we.  Well, my earlier 
answer said it best:  It makes the power non-absolute.  There is a chance 
a failure.  Would you be happier with an activation roll? 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 03:12:39 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention  
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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> c'mon, Bob!  We all knew exactly what was being said in Tim's "censored" 
> comment; if he cared about offending people with such language he'd have 
> phrased his comment in a way that didn't require asterisks.  I don't think 
> he's entitled to claim any high moral ground here (or have it claimed for 
> him, as the case may be). 
 
	Now, now.  It's been pretty accepte on-line ettiquette, for as 
long as I can remember (and going back to the BBS days), to asterisk out 
obscenities to make them acceptible.  I didn't see the rules change 
anywhere. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 03:26:16 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Good/bad cops 
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>    Then again, Tim, you live in the Chicago area, where police ethics are 
> about two notches above those in New Orleans and approximately on par with 
> those of the LAPD.  I know that the police here in Corvallis are extremely 
> courteous and authentically concerned with doing the right thing, and I'd 
 
	Hmmm.  Actually, this is the uinteresting point.  I'd say that the 
Chicago police are about the half and half, from personal experience.  I 
had two motorcycle Chicago cops almost run me over when I was crossing the 
street.  (Green light, crosswalk).  No sirense, no hurry, they were just 
running the red.  After a leapt out of the way, one flicked me off. 
However, I also had no problems from some night beat cops who briefly 
asked where my friends and I were walking to at 2:30 am.  We explained we 
were returning to our vehicles after seeing "The Rocky Horror Picture 
Show", and they were quite friendly. 
 
	I've seen much worse behavior from the police in the suburbs, 
however.  I actually live in a small town (about 1500) about an hour SW of 
Chicago, and have seen much ruder behavior from the police here.  Likewise 
the police in some other suburbs.  (Oak Park, Joliet, Palatine, etc) 
 
	But my worse experience was in Champaign-Urbana, a college town in 
central IL.  Definately not a big-city area. 
 
> wager that the cops in Sacramento are well above par (he adds with a heap 
> of butter).  Don't judge the entire profession because of the ones in just 
> your area. 
 
	Well, I'll take m personal experience as enough to represent the 
fact that at least a sizeable minority of police aren't generally helpful, 
though I never suggested that they all were.  I think it's a matter of 
being a profession that, with its powers, attracts some that like the idea 
of being in power.  Teaching is similar, though almost ever profession 
seems to have somethat like to abuse whatever power they have.  Store 
Clerks, Fast Food Workers, whatever.  This may be just a pretty basic 
human failing. 
 
>    Don't forget the millions in the cemetaries who arrived after one 
> faction of your honest political friends decide that another faction was 
> invading their turf.  Or who became overwhelmed with the intensity of their 
> beliefs. 
 
	Well, without the need for a black-market economy, most of the 
violent crime related to drugs wouldn't exist, but that's another 
discussion more relavent to a Dark Champs campaign. 
 
>    Yes, one must never forget such martyrs for the cause as Jim Morrison, 
> Janis Joplin, John Belushi, River Phoenix.... 
>    ...not to mention a couple of people who I've known personally. 
>    Victimless crime, indeed. 
 
	They all killed themselves.  The governement shouldn't be in the 
business of protecting us from ourselves, though it definately is.  Again, 
an issue for off-list, but I wonder how far this will eventually go.  I've 
seen an editorial, I don't know where, that seriously suggested a special 
tax on fatty foods to keep people from eating them, for their own good. 
 
>    Frankly, the intensity of this response reeks to me more of brainwashing 
> than anything you responded to.  (Though on the whole I'd probably consider 
> even that an overly strong assessment; perhaps "propagandized" would be 
> more fitting.  I can only hope it isn't "drug-addled.") 
 
	Now, now.  I'm clean myself.  (Well, except for tobacc, alcohol 
and caffeen.)  I just don't beleive in telling others how they *must* 
behave -- I find it a simple way to explain my political philosophy. 
Though I've had fun roleplaying characters who are very adament in their 
political convictions in much different ways. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 03:53:40 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
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To: bastet@iquest.net 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Good/bad cops 
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>  
> 	Well, without the need for a black-market economy, most of the 
> violent crime related to drugs wouldn't exist, but that's another 
> discussion more relavent to a Dark Champs campaign. 
 
I've thought about this before as a topic for that.  And just based on my 
own experience I'd have to disagree here.  Traveling through Europe as a 
student (ie, little money) I found the cities with the most liberal laws 
on drugs were the least safe.  But legalizing certainly would hurt the 
organized crime side of the drug trade.  Makes me wonder if anyone's 
Champions groups have ever tried fighting crime from this end by adjusting 
the laws as well as patroling the streets. 
 
> 	They all killed themselves.  The governement shouldn't be in the 
> business of protecting us from ourselves, though it definately is.  Again, 
> an issue for off-list, but I wonder how far this will eventually go.  I've 
> seen an editorial, I don't know where, that seriously suggested a special 
> tax on fatty foods to keep people from eating them, for their own good. 
 
The comic book Judge Dredd had a law making sugar illegal because it was 
unhealthy, which pretty much represented the world there.  The most 
serious challenges here will come from business, not government, though. 
 
 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: Babylon 5 Weapons 
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 09:23:05 -0400 
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On Friday, May 22, 1998 2:40 AM, Tokyo Mark [SMTP:bastet@iquest.net] wrote: 
>  
> I've been converting over weapons for Babylon 5 and wanted to run a few 
> things past the list. 
 
<snip> 
 
>  
> Minbari Fighting Pike +1 OCV (4D6) StrMin: 10 +1" reach  
> 	The name presumably is a translation, since the weapon actually 
> resembles a staff rather than a pike.  Collapsable to the size of a roll 
> of quarters with the push of a button.  The pike is traditionally used 
> with the Minbari fighting art Denn'na (similar to bojutsu). 
 
The pike is called a Denn'bok.  In it's collapsed state, its about 6 inches 
long and 2 to 3 inches in diameter.  It is roughly 5 or so feet long in it's 
combat ready state.  You might want to add something about how it is a 
violation of honor to modify the pike and about the "Dark Warlords" and 
their modified pikes.  You may also what to mention how very few new pikes 
are produced and only the good pike fighters get their own.  Perhaps about 
how Minbari Warriors will hunt down any alien (except the 
Anla'shok(Rangers)) who comes into possession of one. 
 
>  
> Any comments or questions are welcome. 
>  
 
Without pouring over each one, it looks like good work.  I've done this for 
other game systems.  Glad I won't have to do this for champs.  Thanks. 
 
Jason Goode 
  
 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 08:33:38 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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On 21 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
> Todd Hanson writes: 
>  
> > I DID read the limitations on the power, and I agree with Tim that there 
> > is a significant difference between the power and the skill. 
>  
> Then *WHY* the "requires a skill roll" limitation?  What purpose does it 
> serve other than to make this particular power cost less? 
 
 
Wait...let me guess...um... 
 
* The power represents a high development of the Climbing skill, so 
  someone who climbs better can use it better? Also, it's conceptually 
  based on the characters climbing skill, so having some sort of 
  relationship there makes logical sense? 
 
* The player didn't want a power that always worked - he's Rock Climbing 
  Boy, not Spider-Man - and RSR made more sense than Activation? After 
  all, he would logically be able to climb more surely by going slower 
  (taking extra time to improve his roll), he would be affected by /some/ 
  negatives (basically anything that would impact on all skill use - maybe 
  pain from wounds, etc), he shouldn't be able to hang off of a wall when 
  he's stunned, etc. 
 
As for making it cost less...well...Climbing at base STR is 10 points if I 
recall.  RSR is a -1/2 limitation.  You're saving 3 points, which are then 
promptly spent to get the base roll for Climbing.  If you want a high 
Climbing skill, you're actually spending /more/ for this particular power 
and the skill needed to use it than you would for the basic Clinging 
power.  Horrors!  But, if it fits the character conception... 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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From: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:00:04 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Good/bad cops 
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  I find much of this thread very offensive, though I don't wish to become 
embroiled in any kind of debate or discussion about it. Please take this 
thread off the list. Thank you. 
 
  Mark @ GRG 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:37:04 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Character restrictions 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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I'm just curious if any GMs out there ever say "No" to a character simply 
because they personally don't like the character concept. 
 
I have one character who ALWAYS comes up with what I would consider "goofy" 
character concepts.  His latest character isn't so bad, though...it's a 
shapeshifter who can turn his hands and legs into whatever he needs (a big 
hammer, a blade, fins for swimming, etc), as well as sprout wings for 
flying and whatnot.  I was impressed that he came up with this concept, but 
then he had to go and name this character "Q" for no apparant reason (no, 
it has no relationship to the Star Trek character).  This really grates on 
my nerves, just because it's a goofy name in my opinion. 
 
Would you ever say "No" to a character name?  I don't think it's my place, 
but it's so aggravating to me that this player just doesn't seem to have a 
handle on what a comic book character is supposed to be like (concept, 
name, or personality), even though he always references his old comic book 
collection to come up with character ideas.  So far I've figured that I 
just have to put up with such goofiness because I don't want to impose my 
idea of a comic book hero on everyone else...would you be as lenient, or 
would you strike down something that you just didn't like (even though it 
didn't abuse the rules in any way)? 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:37:09 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Hey, that hero looks familiar 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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I've noticed from this thread that "healer" types are very common.  This 
strikes me as odd (at least in a superhero campaign), because I have never 
even seen a healer in any of the campaigns I've been involved with.  I have 
seen a few characters who could Aid other characters (more STR being the 
most common use), but nobody who was primarily a healer.  As I've said 
before, nobody is ever worried about taking BODY because it almost never 
happens...everybody has some resistant defense, and most people have plenty 
of it.  Perhaps my games are not lethal enough? 
 
Anyway, a common archetype that one player uses is the dark, mysterious 
figure who is always wearing a big cloak with his face hidden by the hood.  
These characters are generally "dark" versions of Energy Projectors, with 
maybe a little martial arts thrown in (this player LOVES Missile Deflection 
and most of his characters have it).  Currently, he is running a martial 
artist, but only because I pointed out to him that he always plays the same 
type of character. 
 
On the rare occasion that I get to play, I seem to really like armored 
characters.  I've also made many different versions of an earth 
controller/brick that I'm fascinated with for some reason.  I've also had 
your standard Energy Projector types but I usually don't make them varied 
enough to have long-term interest ("I blast him!"  "I blast him again!"  "I 
blast him yet again!"  -yawn-). 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:37:15 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: RE: Multiple characters per player 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by "Goode, Jason" 
>As a player observing a GM, I only recall one GM who seemed to be able to 
project full life and personality into every NPC.< 
 
This is an excellent point, and really the only comment I've seen in favor 
of allowing the players to run more than one character simultaneously.  The 
only reason I'm considering it is because my group only has 2 players....  
I don't think I'm going to do it, though, because it would make long 
combats even longer, and my goal right now is to make combat shorter. 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:37:20 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Combat Time (was Players who dont pay attention) 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>  The handy-dandy charts on the GM's screen are supposed 
to be one help;< 
 
The booklet of all charts (and power costs, and other stuff) which came 
with the GM's screen would really save time, if I could just remember to 
use it. 
 
> the increasing use of computers -- including quick GM's 
utilities, cheap portable  computers, and online gaming -- will help as 
well.< 
 
I used a few utilities on my laptop the last time we played...  I used the 
dice roller/speed chart combo that is on Theala Sildorian's site (among 
others).  The speed chart helped a little, but I didn't see much benefit 
from the dice roller.  My players thought I was nuts for using a dice 
roller anyway, since one of the joys of RPing is rolling lots of dice.  
-grin-  I'm not convinced that the existing software packages really save a 
significant amount of time, though...plus, the laptop is one more item 
cluttering an already cluttered table. 
 
>I figure that this comes to 2 hours 20 minutes per combat. 
   (Does this sound about right to most folks?)< 
 
Wow...  Yeah, I'd say that's about right.  Maybe a little less because I 
only have two players, but not that much less.  I know this isn't a fair 
comparison, but I miss the days of AD&D combat when you could wrap up a 
fight in 15-20 minutes and get on with the adventure.  I just started a 
1-on-1 AD&D campaign with my wife (brand new role-player) and it is really 
showing me how long HSR combat takes.  The length wouldn't bother me, but 
lately it has become tedious.  I'm not having fun running through 
combats....  Maybe my problem is that I no longer want to be a GM.  Hmm.... 
 (if that's my root problem, then my complaints about HSR combat length may 
be unjustified) 
 
>   On a different note, I have found a faster (but mathematically 
identical) way of calculating the BODY of normal attacks.  You already know 
the number of dice you're rolling, and this is automatically the average 
BODY; just add the number of sixes rolled, and subtract the number of ones. 
 When I switched to this, I found that dice calculation times were cut 
considerably.< 
 
I'm not sure that this would speed us up....  My group has always been able 
to count dice pretty fast.  We just separate the dice into clusters of 10 
pips each, which makes it easy to count STUN.  For BODY, we just go through 
the clusters in a line, adding 0, 1, or 2 to our total for each die we pass 
over.  I'm not really sure why many people allot so much time to counting 
up dice rolls, because that definitely isn't a bottleneck for us. 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:37:25 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Multiple characters per player 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" 
>I have what may be a common double-standard attitude toward this; as a 
player I enjoy running more than one character at a time, but as a GM I 
don't usually encourage it.< 
 
The reason I asked is because my Champs group only has 2 players, which is 
somewhat limiting as far as what I can throw at 'em.  If they had 2 
characters each, I wouldn't have to be so careful about the power levels I 
send their way.  While I think role-playing would suffer, these players 
aren't exactly masters at that anyway, so maybe I wouldn't notice much of a 
difference. 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 08:46:10 -0700 
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 11:25 PM 5/21/1998 -0400, Jeff M. Reid wrote: 
>> Seriously, I should have been more careful to distinguish between being  
>> clinically dead and being beyond help. 
> 
>Very good point! Let me get back to this later! 
 
   Yeah, there's a big difference between being "mostly dead" and being 
"all dead!" 
 
>On the other hand --and this is the thing that got me so excited before -- 
>who's to say that the character who has reached -10 BODY is actually dead 
>yet? Sure, he's beyond help (Healing powers and Paramedic rolls would be 
>useless, except perhaps to give the victim a few more moments of life), but 
>the character might linger on long enough to pass on some cryptic last 
>words to the PCs. 
 
   Very good!  Can you say, "plot device," boys and girls?  :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 08:56:10 -0700 (PDT) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net 
Subject: Re: Character restrictions 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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---David Stallard  wrote: 
> 
> I'm just curious if any GMs out there ever say "No" to a character 
simply 
> because they personally don't like the character concept. 
>  
> I have one character who ALWAYS comes up with what I would consider 
"goofy" 
> character concepts.  His latest character isn't so bad, 
though...it's a 
> shapeshifter who can turn his hands and legs into whatever he needs 
(a big 
> hammer, a blade, fins for swimming, etc), as well as sprout wings for 
> flying and whatnot.  I was impressed that he came up with this 
concept, but 
> then he had to go and name this character "Q" for no apparant reason 
(no, 
> it has no relationship to the Star Trek character).  This really 
grates on 
> my nerves, just because it's a goofy name in my opinion. 
>  
> Would you ever say "No" to a character name?  I don't think it's my 
place, 
> but it's so aggravating to me that this player just doesn't seem to 
have a 
> handle on what a comic book character is supposed to be like (concept, 
> name, or personality), even though he always references his old 
comic book 
> collection to come up with character ideas.  So far I've figured 
that I 
> just have to put up with such goofiness because I don't want to 
impose my 
> idea of a comic book hero on everyone else...would you be as 
lenient, or 
> would you strike down something that you just didn't like (even 
though it 
> didn't abuse the rules in any way)? 
 
Goofiness, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.  (Besides, as 
long as DC Comics continues to maintain the trademark for "Arms Fall 
Off Boy" there is no such thing as a Champions character that's to 
goofy to be in my games.) 
 
 
== 
 
 
     John Desmarais  <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
=========================================== 
Got a question about the Hero/Champions mailing list? 
Just ask.  Or, scope out www.sysabend.org/champions. Yeah, I know, It's not pretty.  I'll make it look better when 
I have some free time. (Hah!) 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 09:00:35 -0700 (PDT) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net 
Subject: Re: Multiple characters per player 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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---David Stallard  wrote: 
> 
> The reason I asked is because my Champs group only has 2 players, 
which is 
> somewhat limiting as far as what I can throw at 'em.  If they had 2 
> characters each, I wouldn't have to be so careful about the power 
levels I 
> send their way.  While I think role-playing would suffer, these 
players 
> aren't exactly masters at that anyway, so maybe I wouldn't notice 
much of a 
> difference. 
 
Something to consider: Since the point of any game (rpg, board game, 
card game, video game, etc...) is for the folks playing it to have 
fun, ask your players weather or not THEY would enjoy playing multiple 
characters. 
 
 
== 
 
 
     John Desmarais  <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
=========================================== 
Got a question about the Hero/Champions mailing list? 
Just ask.  Or, scope out www.sysabend.org/champions. Yeah, I know, It's not pretty.  I'll make it look better when 
I have some free time. (Hah!) 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:13:35 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Multiple characters per player 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Fri, 22 May 1998, David Stallard wrote: 
 
> The reason I asked is because my Champs group only has 2 players, which is 
> somewhat limiting as far as what I can throw at 'em. 
 
Hmm...well, you have to adjust your tactics for a small group rather than 
a large group, true, but it shouldn't really be /limiting/.  Er, unless 
you want to do Galactus-type world threatening adventures and your players 
are playing Power Man and Iron Fist...but that's more an issue of 
character style vs. campaign style.  
 
What are their characters like? And what sort of things do you feel 
uncomfortable in throwing at them?  Maybe that would be a better tack to 
take... 
 
An off-hand suggestion: If you want to use published enemy teams, remember 
that they're more balanced for use against groups of 5-6 PCs.  Either have 
fewer members of the enemy team show up, or give your PCs more power.  
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:40:18 -0500 (CDT) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Character restrictions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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> From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
>  
> I'm just curious if any GMs out there ever say "No" to a character simply 
> because they personally don't like the character concept. 
>  
Not really.  I was usually able to rationalize saying No explaining that the 
character wouldn't 'fit' in the campaign for whatever reasons; basically a  
bit more justification than just personal bias.  
 
> Would you ever say "No" to a character name?  I don't think it's my place, 
 
Probably not.  But you can always have 'in-campaign' reactions to a non- 
genre or stupid name.  Maybe the character loses some dice on presence  
attacks cause he has a stupid name and/or costume.  Maybe the villains bust 
a gut laughing when the character shows up.  Maybe she gets mocked in the 
press and the media.  
 
> just have to put up with such goofiness because I don't want to impose my 
> idea of a comic book hero on everyone else...would you be as lenient, or 
> would you strike down something that you just didn't like (even though it 
> didn't abuse the rules in any way)? 
>  
For a game to succeed, IMO, the players and the GM should be in agreement 
on the genre:  how the characters are expected to behave and the general 
world view. 
 
 
Curt  
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:10:47 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Multiple characters per player 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:49 PM 5/22/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
>Subject: Re: Multiple characters per player 
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
> 
>Message text written by "Michael (Damon) or Peni R. Griffin" 
>>I have what may be a common double-standard attitude toward this; as a 
>player I enjoy running more than one character at a time, but as a GM I 
>don't usually encourage it.< 
> 
>The reason I asked is because my Champs group only has 2 players, which is 
>somewhat limiting as far as what I can throw at 'em.  If they had 2 
>characters each, I wouldn't have to be so careful about the power levels I 
>send their way.  While I think role-playing would suffer, these players 
>aren't exactly masters at that anyway, so maybe I wouldn't notice much of a 
>difference. 
 
   Maybe; maybe not.  Run the idea past them, and tell them that you'd 
expect their second characters to be in some way markedly different from 
the first, and preferably in as many ways as possible.  If one character is 
an angst-ridden dark vigilante type, for example, then maybe the new one 
could be an idealistic young Chinese-American kung fu artist. 
   In any event, your group is definitely small enough that being 
overwhelmed with PCs isn't going to be much of a concern. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Kim Foster" <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net&> 
        "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Fri, 22 May 98 18:16:50  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Thu, 21 May 1998 15:16:39 -0700 (PDT), Kim Foster wrote: 
 
>This is slightly off topic but how many GMs out there assess additional 
>penalties to the Paramedic roll based on the nature of the wound? Like 
>trying to treat a massive gunshot wound to the head with a first aid kit or 
>less?  
 
Most definitely, though IMC an example would be having to treat a 
severed limb. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 13:18:48 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
cc: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Fri, 22 May 1998, qts wrote: 
 
> I use Regeneration UAO (note not UBO) with dollops of Extra Time. I've 
> not had a PC Paladin do a Sir Lancelot by raising the dead, which would 
> be a Summon. 
 
Note that if you stole from Fuzion, you could also just give them 
'Regenerate from the Dead' - it's a +4 bonus there if I recall correctly 
which would make it - 20 points?  It would be prevented by decapitation or 
other massive mangling of the body. 
 
However, that might make it too easy to bring people back - perhaps it's 
better to leave such things to the GM's discretion. 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 13:20:15 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Good/bad cops 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
>   I find much of this thread very offensive, though I don't wish to become 
> embroiled in any kind of debate or discussion about it. Please take this 
> thread off the list. Thank you. 
 
	And please don't be too offended when I ignore this request.  In 
any modern campaign, police attitudes and such can be very important.  I'm 
not going to tread lightly just because you happen to work in the 
profession.  If someone wanted to talk about the bad points of all English 
Majors, I'd debate on it, but I wouldn't ask for the discussion to be 
squelched. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
Date: Fri, 22 May 98 18:22:08  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Thu, 21 May 1998 18:28:29 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
 
>3. Potions and some powers (Paladin lays on hands) can take these 
>limitations or not.  If not, they must be restricted in some other way.  
>Obviously, potions have limited charges (and players really value them.)  
>Laying on hands typically takes charges as well. 
 
I use Regeneration UAO (note not UBO) with dollops of Extra Time. I've 
not had a PC Paladin do a Sir Lancelot by raising the dead, which would 
be a Summon. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 13:22:44 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Hey, that hero looks familiar 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> I've noticed from this thread that "healer" types are very common.  This 
> strikes me as odd (at least in a superhero campaign), because I have never 
> even seen a healer in any of the campaigns I've been involved with.  I have 
> seen a few characters who could Aid other characters (more STR being the 
> most common use), but nobody who was primarily a healer.  As I've said 
> before, nobody is ever worried about taking BODY because it almost never 
> happens...everybody has some resistant defense, and most people have plenty 
> of it.  Perhaps my games are not lethal enough? 
 
	I too am suprised to see so many worried about healers.  In all my 
Champions gaming, I've seen exactly one character with the ability to 
heal, and she had the loimitation that the BOD damage is merely 
transferred to her -- not a very useful power. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:24:10 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Combat Time 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:52 PM 5/22/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
>Subject: Re: Combat Time (was Players who dont pay attention) 
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
> 
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>>  The handy-dandy charts on the GM's screen are supposed 
>to be one help;< 
> 
>The booklet of all charts (and power costs, and other stuff) which came 
>with the GM's screen would really save time, if I could just remember to 
>use it. 
 
   Ditto, on both counts.  :-] 
 
>> the increasing use of computers -- including quick GM's 
>utilities, cheap portable  computers, and online gaming -- will help as 
>well.< 
> 
>I used a few utilities on my laptop the last time we played...  I used the 
>dice roller/speed chart combo that is on Theala Sildorian's site (among 
>others).  The speed chart helped a little, but I didn't see much benefit 
>from the dice roller.  My players thought I was nuts for using a dice 
>roller anyway, since one of the joys of RPing is rolling lots of dice.  
>-grin-  I'm not convinced that the existing software packages really save a 
>significant amount of time, though...plus, the laptop is one more item 
>cluttering an already cluttered table. 
 
   Right now all that's really available for Hero players and GMs on 
computer are HeroMaker, the two utilities you mention, and another 
die-rolling utility which is also available on my website.  HeroMaker isn't 
much use during play, but if Creation Workshop can have multiple character 
sheets open at the same time then that can all but replace having to keep 
physical character sheets on hand. 
   It's not much help having only two small utilities on the computer when 
playing an RPG; in this case, you're right, the computer is taking up more 
space than it's worth.  When combat can be fully tracked on the computer, 
including handling character sheets, then it will be a true boon. 
   (And that's why I want Hero Software to turn its attention to Combat 
Workshop as soon as it's feasable to do so!  I do understand there's a lot 
of other stuff that has to come first, so I won't be disappointed if it 
takes a year and a half to even start building the flowcharts, but still 
I'd like to have that!) 
 
>>I figure that this comes to 2 hours 20 minutes per combat. 
>   (Does this sound about right to most folks?)< 
> 
>Wow...  Yeah, I'd say that's about right.  Maybe a little less because I 
>only have two players, but not that much less.  I know this isn't a fair 
>comparison, but I miss the days of AD&D combat when you could wrap up a 
>fight in 15-20 minutes and get on with the adventure.  I just started a 
>1-on-1 AD&D campaign with my wife (brand new role-player) and it is really 
>showing me how long HSR combat takes.  The length wouldn't bother me, but 
>lately it has become tedious.  I'm not having fun running through 
>combats....  Maybe my problem is that I no longer want to be a GM.  Hmm.... 
> (if that's my root problem, then my complaints about HSR combat length may 
>be unjustified) 
 
   Also, David, I think your campaign is fairly young, and combat tends to 
take longer in Hero games that are young.  (Actually, given my estimates, 
your two players should take about an hour to an hour and a half to polish 
off three opponents once everyone gets on the same wavelength.) 
 
>>   On a different note, I have found a faster (but mathematically 
>identical) way of calculating the BODY of normal attacks.  You already know 
>the number of dice you're rolling, and this is automatically the average 
>BODY; just add the number of sixes rolled, and subtract the number of ones. 
> When I switched to this, I found that dice calculation times were cut 
>considerably.< 
> 
>I'm not sure that this would speed us up....  My group has always been able 
>to count dice pretty fast.  We just separate the dice into clusters of 10 
>pips each, which makes it easy to count STUN.  For BODY, we just go through 
>the clusters in a line, adding 0, 1, or 2 to our total for each die we pass 
>over.  I'm not really sure why many people allot so much time to counting 
>up dice rolls, because that definitely isn't a bottleneck for us. 
 
   If dice-counting isn't much of a bottleneck, then the help this would 
give would obviously be minimal.  I just found that it's a tad faster to 
say, "OK, I have 12 dice, rolled 2 sixes and 1 one, so I did 11 BODY," 
than, "OK, I did two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, 
eleven BODY."  It's only about, oh, two or three seconds out of a 
three-minute turn (more or less, depending on the individual's math 
ability), but it's something. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Date: 22 May 1998 14:43:52 -0400 
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Tim R Gilberg writes: 
 
> 	We are really going in circles here, aren't we. 
 
I stated early on that it is a circular argument. 
 
> Well, my earlier answer said it best: It makes the power non-absolute. 
> There is a chance a failure.  Would you be happier with an activation 
> roll? 
 
I would be happer with a write up that didn't scream "should have been 
purchased as a skill (-1/2)". 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 14:02:50 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Good/bad cops 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Fri, 22 May 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
> 	And please don't be too offended when I ignore this request.  In 
> any modern campaign, police attitudes and such can be very important. 
 
Except for the fact that the discussion seems to be 'I think cops are 
corrupt/I think they're basically good' and has nothing to do with cops in 
HERO.  I haven't seen any posts even /pretending/ to relate this to a game 
- certainly your controversial 'Gestapo' post didn't - therefore, I'm 
forced to assume that you (and the rest of the people on the thread) were 
using this forum to inappropriately express your thoughts on real life 
police.  
 
Now, if you want to make this a 'how to handle corrupt cops vs. good cops' 
discussion /in the context of an RPG/, I don't think anyone on this list 
is going to have a problem with it.  It's certainly on topic.  But bashing 
(or defending) RL police isn't. 
 
So...HERO? 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: Sakura <jeffj@io.com&> qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Cc: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Heroes Lethality 
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 15:12:40 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Friday, May 22, 1998 2:19 PM, Sakura [SMTP:jeffj@io.com] wrote: 
> On Fri, 22 May 1998, qts wrote: 
>  
> > I use Regeneration UAO (note not UBO) with dollops of Extra Time. I've 
> > not had a PC Paladin do a Sir Lancelot by raising the dead, which would 
> > be a Summon. 
>  
> Note that if you stole from Fuzion, you could also just give them 
> 'Regenerate from the Dead' - it's a +4 bonus there if I recall correctly 
> which would make it - 20 points?  
 
It translates as a +1 advantage. 
 
 It would be prevented by decapitation or 
> other massive mangling of the body. 
 
Character must define a "common" circumstance or set of circumstances that 
prevents regenerating from dead. 
 
>  
> However, that might make it too easy to bring people back - perhaps it's 
> better to leave such things to the GM's discretion. 
>  
> J 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: Combat Time 
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 15:20:24 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Friday, May 22, 1998 2:24 PM, Bob Greenwade 
[SMTP:bob.greenwade@klock.com] wrote: 
>    Right now all that's really available for Hero players and GMs on 
> computer are HeroMaker, the two utilities you mention, and another 
> die-rolling utility which is also available on my website.  HeroMaker 
isn't 
> much use during play, but if Creation Workshop can have multiple character 
> sheets open at the same time then that can all but replace having to keep 
> physical character sheets on hand. 
 
Yes, it can.  It also has a die roller, a facility for looking up names and 
for taking notes on a per character basis. 
You could put other stuff to help you in it, like say all the charts on the 
GM screen. 
 
> --- 
> Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
> Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
>    http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 14:26:30 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On 22 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> > Well, my earlier answer said it best: It makes the power non-absolute. 
> > There is a chance a failure.  Would you be happier with an activation 
> > roll? 
>  
> I would be happer with a write up that didn't scream "should have been 
> purchased as a skill (-1/2)". 
 
Sigh.  Here we go again... 
 
Rat, what is so difficult about this?  The differences between what 
Clinging gives you and what Climbing gives you have been outlined at 
/least/ three times in this thread.  You read them - at least, I assume 
you did, instead of reading the first two sentences of the post and then 
replying to it. 
 
Therefore, since it gives you more (and the player presumably /wanted/ 
this extra functionality), it obviously should not have been purchased as 
a skill. In simple language, 
 
	Climbing skill doesn't do everything the player wants. 
 
However, the player's concept of the character is that the characer is an 
incredible climber because of his skill - not because of his 
'Spider-Powers' or being able to molecularly bond with the surface of the 
wall or whatever.  This, Requires a Climbing Skill Roll makes sense as a 
limitation - it will mean that the power requires his attention to use, it 
will mean that he can't glue himself to the wall and take a nap, etc.  In 
simple language, 
 
	The power should act like a skill, because it is  
	essentially a 'super-skill'. 
 
How do we make a power act like a skill?  Requires Skill Roll. 
 
 
Hopefully, I've shown you that this power should /not/ be purchased as a 
skill - if that's in doubt, please tell me.  Hopefully I have also shown 
that, since it is conceptually similar to a skill, it should be purchased 
with 'Requires Skill Roll'. 
 
If you have something constructive to suggest - how to simulate a 
supernaturally good ability with climbing using some limitation other than 
Requires Skill Roll, perhaps - then please, offer it.  If you're just 
going to say, 'I don't like it' to every point that's brought up, then 
this discussion is at best a waste of everyone's time, and we should all 
just let it die.  
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 12:30:17 -0700 
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 01:18 PM 5/22/1998 -0500, Sakura wrote: 
>On Fri, 22 May 1998, qts wrote: 
> 
>> I use Regeneration UAO (note not UBO) with dollops of Extra Time. I've 
>> not had a PC Paladin do a Sir Lancelot by raising the dead, which would 
>> be a Summon. 
> 
>Note that if you stole from Fuzion, you could also just give them 
>'Regenerate from the Dead' - it's a +4 bonus there if I recall correctly 
>which would make it - 20 points?  It would be prevented by decapitation or 
>other massive mangling of the body. 
 
   When translating to Hero +4 in Fuzion can be interpreted as either +20 
points or a +1 Advantage.  (I'm with you in preferring the former, in this 
case, though I'd allow the same modifier to Recovery and Healing Aid.) 
 
>However, that might make it too easy to bring people back - perhaps it's 
>better to leave such things to the GM's discretion. 
 
   I think I'd give this one a Stop Sign, actually.  There are campaigns 
where it'd be grossly inappropriate (even more so than most Powers), and 
others where it could be a plot-spoiler (like murder mysteries) unless 
specifically planned for or around.  In others, it might be totally 
appropriate (like certain high-powered fantasy capaigns). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Date: 22 May 1998 15:31:45 -0400 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Sakura  writes: 
 
> Rat, what is so difficult about this?  The differences between what 
> Clinging gives you and what Climbing gives you have been outlined at 
> /least/ three times in this thread. 
 
And with the limitations in question, 99% of them go away. 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 14:32:12 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: HERO System Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org> 
Subject: RE: Heroes Lethality 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Fri, 22 May 1998, Goode, Jason wrote: 
> On Friday, May 22, 1998 2:19 PM, Sakura [SMTP:jeffj@io.com] wrote: 
> >  
> > Note that if you stole from Fuzion, you could also just give them 
> > 'Regenerate from the Dead' - it's a +4 bonus there if I recall correctly 
> > which would make it - 20 points?  
>  
> It translates as a +1 advantage. 
 
Actually, since Regen is basically a 'flat cost' power, I figured the +4 
points would be a 'flat cost' thing as well.  I think 'able to regenerate 
from the dead' is worth pretty much the same amount regardless of the 
speed of the regeneration, which you're paying for separately. 
 
Making it a flat rate also makes it (and regrowing severed limbs) possible 
to buy as a separate power - making a character who doesn't heal any 
faster than normal, but eventually gets better from a wound or what have 
you. 
  
>  It would be prevented by decapitation or 
> > other massive mangling of the body. 
>  
> Character must define a "common" circumstance or set of circumstances that 
> prevents regenerating from dead. 
 
In a FH campaign, that probably /is/ common.  Swords and axe wounds, etc, 
are not very nice.  In a superhero game, of course, that would be a 
different story. 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 15:53:20 -0400 
From: Patrick Bierlein <prbierlein@ntwrks.com> 
Reply-To: prbierlein@ntwrks.com 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org> 
Subject: Wondering... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Is this list still going? I haven't gotten a message for a while so I 
wanted to check and see if either it's fallen or if I got dropped by 
accident. 
 
Thanks 
Patrick 
 
--  
 
* Hoshino Ruri: MS Nadesico *  Kanzaki Hitomi: Escaflowne  * 
  * Patrick Bierlein - prbierlein@ntwrks.com  
  * Trade List: 
	http://www.ntwrks.com/~prbierlein/animelst.html 
  * Member/Staff: Triangle Area Anime Society (TAAS) 
   * NC State University - Raleigh, NC * 
  * Fan Subtitler: Oukami Studios (TAAS) 
   * Homepage: http://www.ntwrks.com/~prbierlein/oukami.html 
* Ryuzaki Umi: MK Rayearth * Tachiban Maria: Sakura Taisen * 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 22 May 1998 15:59:52 -0400 
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Sakura  writes: 
 
> Rat, what is so difficult about this?  The differences between what 
> Clinging gives you and what Climbing gives you have been outlined at 
> /least/ three times in this thread. 
 
Okay, here is another way of looking at it: 
 
The purpose of this power is to simulate an extraordinary Climbing skill. 
That is the special effect, in a rather broad fashion. 
 
Champions has a mechanic for extraordinary skills.  It is called, strangely 
enough, "Extraordinary Skills" (or something very close to that). 
 
Rule of thumb: never use a power to duplicate the mechanical effects of 
another power.  By extension, do not use a power to duplicate another game 
mechanic. 
 
The Clinging construct blatantly stomps all over the extraordinary skill 
use mechnic. 
 
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should 
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From: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com> 
To: HERO System Mailing List <champ-l@omg.org> 
Subject: RE: Heroes Lethality 
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 16:29:47 -0400 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Friday, May 22, 1998 3:32 PM, Sakura [SMTP:jeffj@io.com] wrote: 
> Actually, since Regen is basically a 'flat cost' power, I figured the +4 
> points would be a 'flat cost' thing as well.  I think 'able to regenerate 
> from the dead' is worth pretty much the same amount regardless of the 
> speed of the regeneration, which you're paying for separately. 
>  
 
You are right.  It is.  Sorry, long day.  Brain just sort of kicked into the 
translate from between Hero & Fuzion mode with realizing that you were 
talking about something that doesn't already exist in Hero (at least not 
spelled out as such.)  Yeah, 4 points (Fuzion) would be 20 points (Hero). 
 
> >  
> > Character must define a "common" circumstance or set of circumstances 
that 
> > prevents regenerating from dead. 
>  
> In a FH campaign, that probably /is/ common.  Swords and axe wounds, etc, 
> are not very nice. 
 
Grizzly, but probably not too far from the truth. 
 
;-) 
 
Jason Goode 
 
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Subject: Re: Babylon 5 Weapons 
Date: Fri, 22 May 98 16:47:56 -0400 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
To: "Tokyo Mark" <bastet@iquest.net&> 
        "Hero Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Tokyo Mark bastet@iquest.net 5/22/98 2:40 AM 
 
>PPG's project plasma in a magnetic 'sheath'.  The wounds seem to be 
>extreme burning over a localized area, and the plasma bolts will even burn 
>through armor designed to stop them, harming the wearer unless he removes 
>the armor.  So I'm giving it a +1 Stun mod to reflect the pain and shock 
>from the wound.  These weapons also seem to have reduced penetration v. 
>'hard' targets.  Instead of clips PPG's are powered by caps that provide 
>the energy for it's shots. 
 
The only thing I see here is that PPGs are suppposed to be primarily  
ineffective 
against "hard" targets.  Light DEF hard objects are only effected as a  
side 
effect of heat, basically hinge pins and locks can be melted off by  
repeated 
bursts.  Heavier armors are completely uneffected.  You should be able to  
empty 
a Sha'ann ( :) ) against hull metal and never scratch it.  I'd probably  
say 
not effective vs hard DEF > 3 instead of reduced penetration and maybe  
extra time 
(with a SPX of extra shots) to effect hard targets < 3 DEF. 
 
>Narn Weapons: 
>	Narn society is militaristic and austere for the most part and the 
>design of their weapons tends to reflect this.  They are also probably the 
>least advanced technologcally of the big four races. 
 
The tech levels should be Minbari, Centauri, Narn, Earth.  Remember that  
the 
Narn stole most of their tech from the Centauri during the liberation and  
that 
most of EF's basic tech was then purchased from the Narn.  The one big  
leg up 
Earth has is the StarFury, and even the Minbari admit that it's a  
respectable 
design (and it was based on captured Dilgar fighters). 
 
>Narn Kalat Avenger PPG Pistol 2D6-1 RKA StrMin: 5, +1 StunMod, 10shots/cap 
>	The standard smallarm of the Narn Regime, rugged and easy to 
>maintain.  The rulebook for B5 States they are rarely sold outside the 
>Regime, but given the Narn's reputation as weapon dealers it seems more 
>likely this weapon would be fairly common. 
 
I tend to agree that this would be a fairly common weapon. 
 
>Auricon EF-PR  PPG Rifle  2 1/2D6 RKA, StrMin: 10 8shots/cap +1 StunMod 
>	Normally only broken out on B5 for major problems, like enemy 
>boarding actions.  By the book it only has 8 shots per cap, but that seems 
>a little strange to me so I might up that. 
 
The few times we've seen these, the troups seem to keep firing them  
without 
ever needing to change caps, where we have seen caps being switched for  
the 
pistols.  I'd tend towards uping the number of shots supstantially and 
maybe consider a limited autofire - maybe three shots/phase. 
 
>Minbari Fighting Pike +1 OCV (4D6) StrMin: 10 +1" reach  
>	The name presumably is a translation, since the weapon actually 
>resembles a staff rather than a pike.  Collapsable to the size of a roll 
>of quarters with the push of a button.  The pike is traditionally used 
>with the Minbari fighting art Denn'na (similar to bojutsu). 
 
These weapons are traditionally the symbol of the Anla'shok, presumably 
staff fighting migrated to Minbar with Sinclair/Valen.  The stats look  
about right, but I'd make the weapon carry a DF and/or Reputation (as a  
side  
effect: 25 AP renders a -1/4).  Humans don't have fond memories of them  
and  
Minbari don't like them outside Minbari hands.  Their unrestricted tech  
in  
TBP, but that would appear to be an error based on Book #9 (_To Dream in  
the City of Sorrows_). 
 
Just my $.02.  I haven't really consulted my TBP, so this is all just  
eyeballed. 
 
PAX, 
John 
 
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From: "Ron Abitz" <ronald@centraltx.net> 
To: "Hero List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 15:51:05 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
---------- 
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
> To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
> Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
> Date: Friday, May 22, 1998 2:59 PM 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> Sakura  writes: 
>  
> > Rat, what is so difficult about this?  The differences between what 
> > Clinging gives you and what Climbing gives you have been outlined at 
> > /least/ three times in this thread. 
>  
> Okay, here is another way of looking at it: 
>  
> The purpose of this power is to simulate an extraordinary Climbing skill. 
> That is the special effect, in a rather broad fashion. 
>  
> Champions has a mechanic for extraordinary skills.  It is called, 
strangely 
> enough, "Extraordinary Skills" (or something very close to that). 
>  
> Rule of thumb: never use a power to duplicate the mechanical effects of 
> another power.  By extension, do not use a power to duplicate another 
game 
> mechanic. 
>  
> The Clinging construct blatantly stomps all over the extraordinary skill 
> use mechnic. 
 
So is normal Clinging for 10pts Clinging gives to same as 100< climbing 
skill. 
 
            Ron Abitz 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 14:01:01 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Dennis C Hwang <dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Thu, 21 May 1998, Lizard wrote: 
 
> At 04:18 PM 5/21/98 -0400, David Stallard wrote: 
>  
> >GM: "The task is dangerous, but the Mayor asks for your help to save the 
> >village." 
> >Players: "Ok, we'll do it.  Can you give us any magic items to help us?  Or 
> >how about sending a bunch of soldiers with us?" 
> >GM: "No..." 
> >Players: -laughing-  "You're going to send us on a mission to save the town 
> >and aren't even going to give us any help?" 
> >GM: <out of character>"You're supposed to be heroes...." 
> > 
>  
> Gee, can I have your players? Mine have just decided that rather than 
> simply rescue the DNPC they came for, they're going to free the entire (50 
> million+) population of the world and destroy the Evil Alien Superweapon 
> TM.  
  
Damn right we are! :) 
 
And anyway, I don't recall that we "came for" a single DNPC; as I recall, 
we were abducted. 
 
--Dennis 
************************************************************* 
*   dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu   *   xenopathologist at large!   * 
************************************************************* 
*   So...you're keeping me alive because you don't know     * 
*   DOS.                                                    * 
*                                                           * 
*                       --Izzy to Gabriel                   * 
*                         THE PROPHECY II                   * 
************************************************************* 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 22 May 1998 17:15:21 -0400 
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Ron Abitz writes: 
 
> So is normal Clinging for 10pts Clinging gives to same as 100< climbing 
> skill. 
 
Um... huh? 
 
For the construct in question, Clinging should never have been used in the 
first place.  The whole thing is an excercise in hammering a square power 
into a round special effect. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 22 May 1998 17:17:31 -0400 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
qts  writes: 
 
>> Note that if you stole from Fuzion, you could also just give them 
>> 'Regenerate from the Dead' - it's a +4 bonus there if I recall correctly 
>> which would make it - 20 points?  It would be prevented by decapitation 
>> or other massive mangling of the body. 
 
> Good idea. But let's not descend into THAT debate again :} 
 
Just a point: the Fuzion version of this power has a limitation attached 
that is clearly inappropriate for many campaigns.  If you are going to 
graft it into Hero, you need to reverse engineer the base power without the 
limitation.  Which means that it is going to cost more than 20 points for 
the base power. 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 14:19:28 -0700 
To: David Stallard <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Christopher Taylor <ctaylor@cyberis.net> 
Subject: Re: Character restrictions 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>I'm just curious if any GMs out there ever say "No" to a character simply 
>because they personally don't like the character concept. 
 
Several times, even in a fantasy game, and then sometimes I wish I had. 
 
>flying and whatnot.  I was impressed that he came up with this concept, but 
>then he had to go and name this character "Q" for no apparant reason (no, 
>it has no relationship to the Star Trek character).  This really grates on 
>my nerves, just because it's a goofy name in my opinion. 
>Would you ever say "No" to a character name?  I don't think it's my place, 
 
The best way I see to deal with this is to have the press, cops, NPCs, etc 
all mock that name, call him something different, and so forth.  After a 
while they will get the point, especially if the news papers keep calling 
him Morph or something else instead. 
 
---------------------------------------------------------- 
Sola Gracia		Sola Scriptura		Sola Fide 
Soli Gloria Deo		Solus Christus		Corum Deo 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 17:19:57 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Combat Time 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>   Right now all that's really available for Hero players and GMs on 
computer are HeroMaker, the two utilities you mention, and another 
die-rolling utility which is also available on my website.< 
 
You forgot one utility which is probably the most ambitious of the entire 
bunch (except for HeroMaker, but I consider it in a different class than 
all these freeware utilities).  I can't remember the name of this utility, 
but it has its own web-site which, as far as I can tell, is dedicated only 
to offering up this free software.  Anyway, it is a DOS-based utility with 
multiple windows which do SPD/Phase tracking, rolls dice (although I can't 
figure this out...the documentation is poor and I think it is buggy), lets 
you flag any character as Stunned, KOd, Flashed (you can set a timer for 
when the Flashed flag turns off!), Entangled, and so on, and lots of other 
stuff.  You can also go to another screen where you can enter in an entire 
character sheet.  It doesn't utilize this information (it's just a bunch of 
text), but if you take the time to type the PC group in, the GM can have 
the whole party's sheets at his fingertips.  The concept is great, but 
implementation is not-so-great.  I've been trying to come up with a project 
to give me some more Visual Basic practice, and I was thinking that moving 
this program over to VB would be really nice (with author's permission, of 
course).  I haven't committed because I just don't have enough spare time 
to devote to it.  Anyway, I don't know that you would want to use it 
because of the quirky interface (some windows are buried behind others and 
you have to press something like Alt-<window number> to bring them into 
view...you wouldn't even know those windows existed if you didn't read the 
docs!), but you should definitely take a look at it. 
 
>>  HeroMaker isn't 
much use during play, but if Creation Workshop can have multiple character 
sheets open at the same time then that can all but replace having to keep 
physical character sheets on hand.<< 
 
I might have to buy Creation Workshop just to figure out Fuzion.  I just 
posted a list of questions on the Fuzion list that are really 
basic...almost all of them are due to poor design of the C:NM book--I just 
can't find what I need to know!  Anyway, yes, CW sounds like it will be an 
amazing tool for H4/H5 (gee, I hope it comes out before H5). 
 
>>   It's not much help having only two small utilities on the computer 
when 
playing an RPG; in this case, you're right, the computer is taking up more 
space than it's worth.  When combat can be fully tracked on the computer, 
including handling character sheets, then it will be a true boon.<< 
 
The DOS program I described above comes a lot closer than anything I've 
seen (again, I don't use it because of the weird interface, but the concept 
is great), but it sounds like Creation Workshop is lightyears ahead of it. 
 
>>   Also, David, I think your campaign is fairly young, and combat tends 
to 
take longer in Hero games that are young.  (Actually, given my estimates, 
your two players should take about an hour to an hour and a half to polish 
off three opponents once everyone gets on the same wavelength.)<< 
 
Hmmm....  It could be, but I've played several different systems with these 
guys (ie., we know how each other thinks already) and they were both 
familiar with HSR before this campaign (we played Champions, then switched 
to Earthdawn for a year, and now are back to Champions).  Perhaps they're a 
little cold to the system, though.  That's gotta be it to a certain extent, 
because my shapeshifter player (who likes to make his hands into HKA's) 
keeps asking me how many dice would kill a normal, because he wants to make 
sure that he doesn't kill any agents (he has a Code vs Killing...funny how 
he uses HKA's so much--he just likes to do the potentially mega-STUN 
against the usually smaller-than-PD rPD--can you say "min-maxer"?  How 
about "munchkin"?).  I don't give him an answer in dice, but instead point 
out the stats and defense for an average normal and then remind him of the 
maximum BODY his attack could do (teach them how to fish, don't fish for 
them).  This brings up another question, but I'll post it in a separate 
message. 
 
>>   If dice-counting isn't much of a bottleneck, then the help this would 
give would obviously be minimal.  I just found that it's a tad faster to 
say, "OK, I have 12 dice, rolled 2 sixes and 1 one, so I did 11 BODY," 
than, "OK, I did two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, 
eleven BODY."  It's only about, oh, two or three seconds out of a 
three-minute turn (more or less, depending on the individual's math 
ability), but it's something.<< 
 
Yeah, you're probably right, but I figure it takes a little time to count 
your sixes and ones anyway, so while you're doing that I can be doing my 
"one, two, three..." thing.  -grin- 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 17:20:00 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Multiple characters per player 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>   Maybe; maybe not.  Run the idea past them, and tell them that you'd 
expect their second characters to be in some way markedly different from 
the first, and preferably in as many ways as possible.  If one character is 
an angst-ridden dark vigilante type, for example, then maybe the new one 
could be an idealistic young Chinese-American kung fu artist. 
   In any event, your group is definitely small enough that being 
overwhelmed with PCs isn't going to be much of a concern.< 
 
I think they've expressed interest in running more than one character, but 
I'd have to check to be certain.  Since my big beef with HSR right now is 
that combat takes too long, I'm not sure that I want to add more PCs to the 
mix (thus, adding more NPCs as well).  I'd like to have a larger PC group, 
but the resolution time....  Oh, and I know that at least one of the 
players is interested in a 2nd character only so that he can get more 
firepower on the hexmap--that makes me want to say "No" right there. 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 14:28:26 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Dennis C Hwang <dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu> 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On 22 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> Sakura  writes: 
>  
> > Rat, what is so difficult about this?  The differences between what 
> > Clinging gives you and what Climbing gives you have been outlined at 
> > /least/ three times in this thread. 
>  
> Okay, here is another way of looking at it: 
>  
> The purpose of this power is to simulate an extraordinary Climbing skill. 
> That is the special effect, in a rather broad fashion. 
>  
> Champions has a mechanic for extraordinary skills.  It is called, strangely 
> enough, "Extraordinary Skills" (or something very close to that). 
>  
> Rule of thumb: never use a power to duplicate the mechanical effects of 
> another power.  By extension, do not use a power to duplicate another game 
> mechanic. 
>  
> The Clinging construct blatantly stomps all over the extraordinary skill 
> use mechnic. 
 
Having observed this thread with a certain amount of interest (and 
attempting to remain impartial), I wonder if the root of the problem might 
lie in the fact that the bounds of Extraordinary Skills are somewhat 
poorly defined. 
 
So here's yet another way to look at it.  Would you allow (under the 
Extraordinary Skill rules) Climbing at a very high level to duplicate 
those effects of the Clinging construct that haven't been limited away? 
If the Master of Lizard-Style Kung Fu says "I want to climb this wall at 
my full movement rate" with his Climbing 18- skill, do you let him?  If 
the Amazing Scaler, climber extraordinaire with Climbing 22-, is at the 
bottom of a pit with sheer metal walls and no tools, do you let him try to 
climb out? 
 
I'm interested in what all the GMs here would have to say. 
 
--Dennis 
************************************************************* 
*   dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu   *   xenopathologist at large!   * 
************************************************************* 
*   So...you're keeping me alive because you don't know     * 
*   DOS.                                                    * 
*                                                           * 
*                       --Izzy to Gabriel                   * 
*                         THE PROPHECY II                   * 
************************************************************* 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 16:42:16 -0500 
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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On 5/22/98, at 3:10 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:  
 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>Okay, here is another way of looking at it: 
> 
>The purpose of this power is to simulate an extraordinary Climbing skill. 
>That is the special effect, in a rather broad fashion. 
> 
>Champions has a mechanic for extraordinary skills.  It is called, strangely 
>enough, "Extraordinary Skills" (or something very close to that). 
> 
>Rule of thumb: never use a power to duplicate the mechanical effects of 
>another power.  By extension, do not use a power to duplicate another game 
>mechanic. 
> 
>The Clinging construct blatantly stomps all over the extraordinary skill 
>use mechnic. 
 
However, the Extraordinary Skill mechanic falls smack dab in the middle of "GM's Call" territory; there are few if any details about what to do when a player achieves such a roll. To use this ill-defined mechanic as a reason to veto the proposed construction is flimsy at best. Just what is the effect of making an extraordinary Climbing roll? Climbing w/o any OCV/DCV penalties? Doubling your Climbing speed? Both of those would be logical effects, yet Clinging offers so much more.  Thus, Clinging which requires a Climbing skill roll is better than an extraordinary Climbing roll but not as good as regular Clinging. 
 
Also, the precise effect of the extraordinary skill roll is under the GM's control, not the player's. If a player wants more control over the results of the "extraordinary skill", then purchasing Clinging gives a more predictable result.   
 
I have quibbles with most or all of the "Rules of Thumb" as absolute limits to what you can and cannot do. To me, a hardline interpretation of them ("You CANNOT buy Clinging that requires a Climbing roll because it duplicates another game mechanic") is just silly; part of Hero's great advantage over other games is that it's more flexible and forgiving, while at the same time offering a framework for the participants' own creativity.  "A foolish consistency..." (This doesn't mean that I'm advocating discarding them wholesale!  They should be considered carefully, and only set aside when there are clear advantages to doing so, such as enhancing the enjoyment of the game.)  If the only objection to a particular power or skill is that it violates a Rule of Thumb, but is otherwise a reasonable construction, it might still be worthy of consideration. Look at all the "official" powers that violate rules of thumb; there must be a reason that Armor and Force Field were both included as! 
 powers when they overlap each other.  Remember that a Rule of thumb is: 
1 : a method of procedure based on experience and common sense 
2 : a general principle regarded as roughly correct but not intended to be scientifically accurate  
 
 
 
Uncommon Solutions...when you need a better way! 
http://www.uncommonsolutions.com 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Sakura" <jeffj@io.com> 
Cc: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Fri, 22 May 98 21:45:30  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Fri, 22 May 1998 13:18:48 -0500 (CDT), Sakura wrote: 
 
>On Fri, 22 May 1998, qts wrote: 
> 
>> I use Regeneration UAO (note not UBO) with dollops of Extra Time. I've 
>> not had a PC Paladin do a Sir Lancelot by raising the dead, which would 
>> be a Summon. 
> 
>Note that if you stole from Fuzion, you could also just give them 
>'Regenerate from the Dead' - it's a +4 bonus there if I recall correctly 
>which would make it - 20 points?  It would be prevented by decapitation or 
>other massive mangling of the body. 
 
Good idea. But let's not descend into THAT debate again :} 
 
>However, that might make it too easy to bring people back - perhaps it's 
>better to leave such things to the GM's discretion. 
 
Such effects are ALWAYS at the discretion of the appropriate patron 
deity, ie me. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Goode, Jason" <JGoode@medrad.com&> "Sakura" <jeffj@io.com> 
Cc: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Fri, 22 May 98 21:47:21  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: RE: Heroes Lethality 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Fri, 22 May 1998 15:12:40 -0400, Goode, Jason wrote: 
 
>On Friday, May 22, 1998 2:19 PM, Sakura [SMTP:jeffj@io.com] wrote: 
>> On Fri, 22 May 1998, qts wrote: 
>>  
>> > I use Regeneration UAO (note not UBO) with dollops of Extra Time. I've 
>> > not had a PC Paladin do a Sir Lancelot by raising the dead, which would 
>> > be a Summon. 
>>  
>> Note that if you stole from Fuzion, you could also just give them 
>> 'Regenerate from the Dead' - it's a +4 bonus there if I recall correctly 
>> which would make it - 20 points?  
> 
>It translates as a +1 advantage. 
> 
> It would be prevented by decapitation or 
>> other massive mangling of the body. 
> 
>Character must define a "common" circumstance or set of circumstances that 
>prevents regenerating from dead. 
 
'Dismemberment or being eaten' would presumably suffice. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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Date: 22 May 1998 17:48:40 -0400 
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Dennis C Hwang writes: 
 
> So here's yet another way to look at it.  Would you allow (under the 
> Extraordinary Skill rules) Climbing at a very high level to duplicate 
> those effects of the Clinging construct that haven't been limited away? 
 
To turn that around a bit, it depends on the special effects that the 
player is trying to accomplish. 
 
> If the Master of Lizard-Style Kung Fu says "I want to climb this wall at 
> my full movement rate" with his Climbing 18- skill, do you let him? 
 
No, not without hamming out his special effects a bit more.  As described, 
Climbing skill has nothing to do with this effect -- he isn't climbing the 
wall, at least not the way the Climbing skill functions.  Clinging is 
inappropriate as well, since he is not really sticking to or gripping the 
wall, either. 
 
The precedent for this type of effect is limited Flight.  In this case, 
start with Flight equal to (or perhaps less than) normal Running velocity. 
Add either "must remain in contact with a surface (-1/2)" or "must remain 
in contact with a solid surface (-3/4)".  And since the whole effect is 
based on "you must run very fast", a limitation that says, "you must keep 
running; you cannot stop"; GM's call what that is worth.  Flight's turn 
mode goes a long way towards helping this kind of effect work "right". 
 
> If the Amazing Scaler, climber extraordinaire with Climbing 22-, is at 
> the bottom of a pit with sheer metal walls and no tools, do you let him 
> try to climb out? 
 
As a GM I would *NEVER* put The Amazing Scaler into such a situation if 
there were no way out other than doing something "impossible".  That said, 
even sheer metal walls can be climbed if you can apply sufficient friction 
against two surfaces. 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 17:55:04 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Shapeshifting VPP 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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I've got a few questions about a PC in my group....he has a VPP which is 
shapeshifting powers.  In other words, he can sprout wings if he wants, and 
he can turn his hands into a hammer or a blade or whatever. 
 
1) Does it makes sense for him to be able to vary the dice on his HKA at 
will, or would you make it an "all or nothing" slot?  You could argue that 
he's "pulling his punch", but in this case he actually benefits from 
pulling his punch, because he has more points to put in another VPP slot.  
Similarly, should he be able to vary the effectiveness of Flight, or should 
we declare that Wings offer X inches of movement, and thus he always has to 
pay points for X inches even if he wants to move slower? 
 
2) This character has a Code vs Killing.  Should he be using HKA at all?  
I'm pretty sure that the reason he uses it is because rPD is usually 
smaller than PD (thus, he can do more damage with an HKA) and because of 
the potential to roll a huge amount of STUN damage.  He keeps asking me how 
many dice will kill an agent, because he wants to take them out without 
killing them (because of his Code vs Killing).  Should I outlaw HKA for 
him, penalize him for using it (maybe less experience), or allow him to 
continue as is?  It seems kinda weird for a guy to go around slicing people 
up but making sure they don't die as a result (unless you're a 
villain...hmm....). 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting VPP 
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Date: 22 May 1998 18:07:00 -0400 
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David Stallard writes: 
 
> 1) Does it makes sense for him to be able to vary the dice on his HKA at 
> will, or would you make it an "all or nothing" slot? 
 
Longsword.  Straight razor.  You tell me. :) 
 
[...] 
 
> 2) This character has a Code vs Killing.  Should he be using HKA at all? 
 
A 6d6 normal attack can kill a slightly less than perfectly healthy person 
with a good roll. 
 
How severe is the disadvantage? 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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Date: 22 May 1998 18:10:52 -0400 
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Guy Hoyle writes: 
 
> However, the Extraordinary Skill mechanic falls smack dab in the middle 
> of "GM's Call" territory; there are few if any details about what to do 
> when a player achieves such a roll. 
 
The "impossible" defies explanation or description.  Once you define it, it 
ceases to be so extraordinary. 
 
> To use this ill-defined mechanic as a reason to veto the proposed 
> construction is flimsy at best. 
 
The fact that the mechanic exists at all is sufficient reason to veto the 
power construct. 
 
> Just what is the effect of making an extraordinary Climbing roll? 
> Climbing w/o any OCV/DCV penalties?  Doubling your Climbing speed? Both 
> of those would be logical effects, yet Clinging offers so much more. 
 
So what if it does.  The *EFFECT* being modeled is not "so much more". 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 17:41:43 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting VPP 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
David Stallard wrote: 
 
> 2) This character has a Code vs Killing.  Should he be using HKA at all? 
> I'm pretty sure that the reason he uses it is because rPD is usually 
> smaller than PD (thus, he can do more damage with an HKA) and because of 
 
 
This sounds like you have a misunderstanding about rPD vs PD.  Unless he 
is doing body to the victim, the amount of resistant defenses should 
make no differences.  Remember, you still get to apply full PD against 
the STUN of a killing attack - it's only the BODY of a killing attack 
that you need resistant defenses for. 
 
(this assumes of course that the victim has SOME resistant defenses) 
 
That said, he should not be using a killing attack that has even the 
SLIGHTEST chance of killing. 
 
Can HE tell how much resistant defenses that agent has?  probably not.  
When he asks you how many dice will kill an agent, tell him 2 (max roll 
of 12 - 10 body average = dead normal).   
 
 
Todd 
 
 
 
--  
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 18:16:26 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On 22 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> Okay, here is another way of looking at it: 
>  
> Rule of thumb: never use a power to duplicate the mechanical effects of 
> another power.  By extension, do not use a power to duplicate another game 
> mechanic. 
>  
> The Clinging construct blatantly stomps all over the extraordinary skill 
> use mechnic. 
 
Hmm...you mean the 'Extraordinary Skills' mechanic that starts out with 
the words 'As an optional rule'? 
 
Therefore, you probably wouldn't let someone use the following: 
 
Desolid: Not through objects, affected by AE attacks. SFX: Ultimate Dodge 
 
Transform: non-working machine to working machine, RSR: Mechanic or 
   Electronics (as appropriate). SFX: Ultimate Repairman 
 
Invisibility to Sight and Hearing, RSR Stealth. SFX: Ultimate Stealth 
 
Combat levels, requires Acrobatics roll (since there's a mechanic already 
   in the skill) 
 
Shapeshift, OAF Disguise Kit, Extra Time. SFX: Man of 1000 Faces 
 
AID, RSR (Paramedic, or Herbalism or something) SFX: Healing 
   Drugs/Poultice 
 
All of these would, as I understand it, 'stomp all over the Extraordinary 
Skill Use' mechanic (except maybe the Desolid dodge, but that stomps all 
over the ordinary combat mechanics instead) 
 
I prefer to let the system be as flexible as possible - if players want to 
buy a power as a 'super skill', great.  Apparently, you have different 
views.  I don't claim to understand them, since it seems to me that you're 
needlessly limiting yourself, but if you want to do so, that's your 
right. 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Recruiting new players 
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 18:21:26 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
After a few days on the list, do I detect a bit of an attitude that good 
Hero players are hard to come by?  Anyone made a concerted effort to "grow 
their own"?  I've noticed that it is sometimes easier to get people who get 
along and teach them the system, than to try to take whatever Hero players 
you can get, then deal with the personalities. 
 
Gracious!  Last year, I had two separate groups going through the same 
campaign and adventures.  Both groups always had 4 players, and usually 
5-7.  The second group had no prior Hero experience, but they seemed to do 
just as well as the other group.  (They were all former AD&D players who 
knew and liked each other.) 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 18:34:22 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On 22 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> Sakura  writes: 
>  
> > Rat, what is so difficult about this?  The differences between what 
> > Clinging gives you and what Climbing gives you have been outlined at 
> > /least/ three times in this thread. 
>  
> And with the limitations in question, 99% of them go away. 
 
Is that a calculated percentage or just a number you pulled out of your 
hinder? I'm leaning towards the latter. 
 
Of course, you haven't bothered to /specify/ which exact contruction of 
the power is under discussion. Two have been advanced as theories: 
 
>From Ninja Hero: 
Clinging (10 pts), Sideways Movement is 1/2 Ground Movement Rate (-1/4), 
No Ceilings or Angles Less than 80 degrees (-1/4): 7 pts. 
 
>From Dark Champions: 
15 STR Clinging (12 pts)*; Requires a Climbing Roll (-1/2), Cannot Cling 
to Ceilings (-1/4), Cannot be Used to Resist Knockback (-1/4): 6 points 
 
* - This is an error, since 10 pts allows you to exert your full STR when 
Clinging - at least according to my copy of the HSR - and the example is 
for a 15 STR character.  The Base and Real costs should be 10 and 5 
respectively. 
 
I'll combine the two, just in case: 
 
Clinging (10 pts), Sideways Move 1/2 Ground Move (-1/4), No Ceilings 
(-1/4), Can't Resist KB (-1/4), Requires Climbing Roll (-1/2): 4 pts 
 
Now, let's compare what you get with this construct over the Climbing 
Skill: 
 
* Doesn't require handholds 
* No penalties for the slickness of the surface 
* Still faster than Climbing 
* Doesn't require equipment 
 
And what do you lose? 
 
* KB Resistance 
* Fast Sideways Movement 
* Clinging to Ceilings 
 
Yeah.  That looks like 99% to me. 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Computers (Orig Re: Combat Time) 
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 18:35:27 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
I had my own program back in the Commodore 64 days that worked fairly well, 
mainly because it only did what I wanted, since I wrote it.  I tried GMAID 
and completely gave up after 2 session. 
 
I've found that a computer may save some time, but the lack of focus is a 
killer.  Every time I get into the flow of the combat, I have to shift 
focus to the computer.  It's that "lack of excitement" thing again.  Anyone 
else felt this way? 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 16:57:50 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting VPP 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:03 PM 5/22/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
>Subject: Shapeshifting VPP 
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
> 
>I've got a few questions about a PC in my group....he has a VPP which is 
>shapeshifting powers.  In other words, he can sprout wings if he wants, and 
>he can turn his hands into a hammer or a blade or whatever. 
> 
>1) Does it makes sense for him to be able to vary the dice on his HKA at 
>will, or would you make it an "all or nothing" slot?  You could argue that 
>he's "pulling his punch", but in this case he actually benefits from 
>pulling his punch, because he has more points to put in another VPP slot.  
>Similarly, should he be able to vary the effectiveness of Flight, or should 
>we declare that Wings offer X inches of movement, and thus he always has to 
>pay points for X inches even if he wants to move slower? 
 
   Both mechanically and conceptually, he should be able to vary the size 
of any given power.  Having a smaller HKA can be defined as simply growing 
smaller blades (or whatever); similarly, having fewer inches of Flight can 
be defined as growing smaller wings. 
 
>2) This character has a Code vs Killing.  Should he be using HKA at all?  
>I'm pretty sure that the reason he uses it is because rPD is usually 
>smaller than PD (thus, he can do more damage with an HKA) and because of 
>the potential to roll a huge amount of STUN damage.  He keeps asking me how 
>many dice will kill an agent, because he wants to take them out without 
>killing them (because of his Code vs Killing).  Should I outlaw HKA for 
>him, penalize him for using it (maybe less experience), or allow him to 
>continue as is?  It seems kinda weird for a guy to go around slicing people 
>up but making sure they don't die as a result (unless you're a 
>villain...hmm....). 
 
   You should probably point out to him that there are ways of dealing with 
opponents that are just as effective and less lethal.  A sledge hammer will 
hurt just as much as a sword, but is less likely to slay the target.  There 
may also be other ways of dealing with the target, such as switching to 
Flight, grabbing him, flying waaaaaaay up in the air, and letting go. 
(Sometimes the opponent surrenders before you get to that last part.) 
   If you really want to deal with this as a problem, give him some 
opponents who look tough but have low resistant defenses -- say, about 
20-25 PD overall, but only 3-5 points of its resistant (no more than 10). 
These opponents will suffer major owies, but *probably* not die (especially 
if the PC is sufficiently shocked by the blood spurting all over the place, 
and takes steps to reduce or alter the attacks). 
   Part of where the confusion comes in is the name Killing Attack, and how 
it compares to a Code Against Killing.  The term "Killing Attack" does not, 
in this context, mean "attack which causes death," even though that's what 
the words literally say.  In real-world terms, I'd be no less guilty of 
assault if I took my father's sledge hammer (in game terms, a Normal 
attack) to someone than if I instead used my nephew's bastard sword (a 
Killing attack).  Using either weapon on a person would be equally a 
violation (or not) of my own personal code regarding violence. 
   What the term "Killing Attack" means in the Hero context is an attack 
that does "Killing Damage" -- that is, damage whose primary form is BODY, 
as opposed to a Normal attack whose primary form is STUN.  Granted that 
Killing damage is more likely to be lethal to its recipient than Normal 
damage, Damage Class for Damage Class; but using a Killing attack on 
someone would not in itself automatically violate a character's Code 
Against Killing any more than using a Normal attack automatically wouldn't 
violate it. 
   The only really important thing is that both the player and the 
character understand that point about Killing attacks, all else being 
equal, being more potentially lethal than Normal attacks. 
   Also, it bears pointing out that if a target has any resistant defense 
at all, he also gets to apply his non-resistant defense against the STUN of 
a Killing attack (HSR, page 160, second paragraph under "Killing Attacks"). 
 This should make HKA a bit less attractive to this character, since most 
targets will still get their full defenses against at least the STUN 
portion of his attacks and those that don't will get no defense whatsoever. 
   Of course, an HKA is still quite good for getting through locked doors, 
demolishing getaway vehicles, breaking weapons, and such. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: "Darien Phoenix Lynx" <lynx@insync.net> 
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Combat Time 
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 19:00:25 -0500 
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