Week Ending May 30, 1998

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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Superman (1938) 
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Date: 24 May 1998 00:02:48 -0400 
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Stainless Steel Rat writes: 
 
> Elemental Controls give a break for a tight special effect or a single 
> special effect, not good concepts.  Both Batman and Iceman are good 
> concepts.  Batman's powers are a variety gadgets; no EC. 
 
Well, argh for not finishing the thought. 
 
Batman's powers are a variety of gadgets, so no EC.  Iceman's powers are 
all ice, so yes EC. 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 23:27:15 -0500 
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Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
>Mental powers (and a few others) operate along a "line-of-sight" basis. 
>That is, you must be able to see your target.  But can line-of-sight 
>include things like video surveillance?  Could a mentalist sit in a  
>separate room watching a monitor and attack the people he sees on  
>screen?  How about through a mirror?  Do the mental powers work that 
>way, or would you have to buy Indirect? 
 
I'd have to say none of the above, except for the mirror.  Indirect means 
you still have to be there, even if the attack does not travel a straight 
line.  But for any kind of video I would rule that to get that affect, the 
character has to buy Mind Scan, limited to "only through video".  Your call 
on the limitation value.  
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 23:31:27 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On 23 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
> Michael Surbrook writes: 
> >> If these are so "ultimate", why are they limited by skill rolls? 
> > Becuase they allow the one to do virtually impossible things, even with a 
> > skill roll. 
> The version with a skill roll sometimes does not work.  The version without 
> a skill roll always works. 
>  
> Which one is really "more ultimate"? 
 
So your problem is a petty one with the wording instead of with the 
mechanics.  Fine, replace the word 'Ultimate' with the word 'Super'. 
Happy now? 
 
The 'Super Mechanic' can fix anything, even if it would normally be 
impossible due to a lack of tools, lack of parts, etc - he can essentially 
'jury-rig' it into working.  He wants to buy this as Transform, 
non-working machine to working machine, Requires Skill Roll (Mechanics). 
 
The 'Super Stealth' guy has Invisibility to Sight & Sound, Requires 
Stealth Roll.   
 
et cetera. 
  
> They did not remove that, they changed it.  Used to be, Acrobatics could 
> give a +2 DCV; now it gives +1 to +3 OCV as a type of suprise maneuver. 
 
I think this is semantics.  Whatever the cause, Acrobatics used to give a 
DCV bonus.  One could presumably use Acrobatics to improve one's dodge - 
Spider-man and Nightcrawler are both good examples of this - therefore, 
why wouldn't +2 DCV, Requires Acrobatics Roll be a logical power 
construction? 
   
> > Wrong Rat.  If you have Disguise and make your Disguise roll can, quote: 
> > "...make instant duplicates of specific people." 
>  
> I saw no reference to "Disguise roll" anywhere in the description. 
 
Then you are reading a different copy of the HSR than everyone else on 
this list.  "A character with Disguise who makes his **DISGUISE ROLL** can 
make instant duplicates of specific people."  (HSR, p83, emphasis mine) 
 
> Shapeshift does not allow you to look like a specific individual. 
 
Yes, it does.  You need to make a Disguise Roll to do it, however. 
 
>  You 
> still need Disguise for that.  And you can do it with just Disguise; 
> Shapeshift is not really necessary. 
 
You can do it with Disguise /and/ appropriate amounts of time and disguise 
equipment.  Disguise by itself is not sufficient, just as Shapeshift by 
itself is not sufficient. 
   
> >> "Healing" chemicals do not work as fast as AID.  The mechanic is bogus 
> >> from the get-go. 
>  
> > Whoa, since when do such things as 'real-world' limitations matter in in 
> > a superhero game? 
>  
> Since when have "healing poultices" been a staple of a superhero game? 
> That sounds more like a medieval setting or maybe a modern martial arts 
> setting. 
 
Since when has HERO been solely for superhero games? 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Stat vs Stat 
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 23:45:19 -0500 
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Bob Greenwade wrote 
>   What if for Stat vs Stat checks, instead of rolling damage dice or Stat 
>Rolls and comparing the results, these were just boiled down to the 
>equivalent of an Attack Roll?  A STR vs STR Roll, to use the most 
>frequently-used instance as an example, would become (Attacker's STR/3) + 
>11 - (Defender's STR/3) or less. 
   <other good stuff snipped>. 
 
[tongue firmly in cheek] 
You've gone and done it now, Bob.  Here I was with my game running real 
smooth, no changes in site for weeks except adding some new spells.  Then 
you have to go throw this idea out.  And no, it couldn't just be some goofy 
idea that I could dismiss out of hand.  And I think I've used up my charges 
of "GM changes the rules again" tolerance.  The worst part is, I can't tell 
for sure whether this way would work better with my group or not--unless I 
try it.  If you get any more ideas along this line, save them until 
September.  I should have recovered some charges by then.  :-) 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 15:03:37 +1000 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: happyelf <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:43 PM 5/23/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
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> 
>Curtis Gibson writes: 
> 
>> What happens to the player who wants 'the greatest climber in the world' 
>> in a campaign that doesn't allow extraordinary skill rolls. 
> 
>I think you have a GM that needs to rethink a campaign guidelines if he 
>allows this character into the game. 
> 
 
 
*sheesh* and i got broadsided fer not wanting invincible pc's  
for 120 pints. . . 
 
 
>> The clinging construction does that wonderfully. I builds using 
>> completely legal methods, using no optional rules, what the hypothetical 
>> player wants, and can be campaign portable. Someone with a 23- climbing 
>> wouldn't be allowed in a campiagn with 16- maxes on skill (for example). 
> 
>And it also does a bunch of things that go well beyond simply being "the 
>greatest climber in the world". 
> 
 
 
then limit them. in champs power construction often involves 
grabbing a power and chipping off everything that doesn't look like an 
elephant.  
 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 14:43:38 +0800 
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au> 
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au 
Organization: Only One Inc. 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Hey, that hero looks familiar 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> > I've noticed from this thread that "healer" types are very common. 
>  
> I wouldn't say that... I've only noticed a couple of people saying  
> that they found them common. I've never seen anything resembling a  
> "healer" in a superhero game myself. 
 
I agree. In the course of all my campaigns, I've had exactly 
ONE healer character. It was an NPC (named Empath - so shoot me, 
it's a cool name, if not particularly original), and he was one 
of the first to buy it during the Great Hero Hunt (ala the 
GAZZA version, since I was unable to locate the 'official' version). 
 
OTOH, Regeneration is a particularly common power IMC. At one 
time, 3 out of 10 PCs had it. 
--  
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza) 
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment." 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 14:51:57 +0800 
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au> 
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au 
Organization: Only One Inc. 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> "Cool! Look at all the options!" was my first reaction. Certainly it 
> never occurred to me that it was complicated. I had played _D&D_, for 
> Christs' sake (which is not as overcomplicated as AD&D, but still more 
> complicated than Champions). 
 
Do you really think so? When I decided to start up a new 
fantasy campaign about 18 months ago, I used D&D because it 
was (IMHO) the simplest to learn (and I had a couple of new 
players to break in). Granted AD&D is complex, but I'm not 
sure I'd go so far as to say it was more complicated than 
Hero. 
 
Of course, that's not to say either of them is OVERLY complex. 
You want lots of options? Then you need a certain amount of 
complexity. 
 
"With great flexibility comes great complexity". Offhand, I 
cannot think of ANY of the so-called "simple to learn" systems 
that were really worth playing on a long term basis. The closest 
games I know of that approached this were Dragon Warriors (which 
you could play with just two paperbacks) and "basic" D&D. In the 
former case, the system wasn't really highly adaptable to settings 
other than the 'default' flavour provided (strongly medieval, IOW); 
and in the latter case, even my current group of 'beginners' 
would probably happily switch to AD&D if I gave the go-ahead. 
 
To return to the topic, though - the only really complex part 
of Hero is character creation. As long as the GM is prepared to 
put in a lot of effort to help new players design characters 
(generally, I just ask them what they want and build it for 
them), this should go reasonably smoothly. Combat - while 
detailed - is not particularly DIFFICULT (at least IMHO. I had 
a lot more hassle explaining the concepts of 'THACO' and 'Armour 
Class' to new players than I ever had with Champions CV and 
DEF). 
--  
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza) 
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment." 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 15:02:40 +0800 
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au> 
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au 
Organization: Only One Inc. 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> Mental powers (and a few others) operate along a "line-of-sight"  
> basis. 
> That is, you must be able to see your target.  But can line-of-sight 
> include things like video surveillance?  Could a mentalist sit in a 
> separate room watching a monitor and attack the people he sees on 
> screen?  How about through a mirror?  Do the mental powers work that 
> way, or would you have to buy Indirect? 
 
IMHO? No, they can't work via video surveillance or mirrors. 
 
I play LOS as DIRECT LOS. That is - my primary viewing mechanism 
(hereafter referred to as my 'sight') must be able to trace a 
straight line to my target. 
 
There are a couple of exceptions to this. I _DO_ allow Clairsentience 
to work, as long as its inherently a power of the telepath (that is, 
you can't use your bases sensors to do this trick, even if they're 
built as "Clairsentience"). And Mind Scan obviously gets around this 
as well. 
 
On a related note - I _would_ allow someone with natural Telescopic 
Vision to affect people further away (I rule that the target has to 
be close enough to identify species, as suggested in the Ultimate 
Mentalist). And I suspect I could be talked into allowing someone to 
make use of N-Ray Vision in this fashion, although this might be a 
hard sell (more because of potential abuse than any other reason). 
 
It's probably worth noting that I count any inherent targetting 
sense as "sight" - I've had "blind" telepaths with Spatial Awareness 
IMC before. This is possibly a house rule, though. 
--  
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza) 
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment." 
 
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: The Incredible Shrinking Hero 
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 02:12:56 -0500 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>>Being inside of solid matter can't be achieved by being small.  Unless you 
>>believe the propaganda of the liberal media about electrons, neutrons, 
>>protons, and the whole atom theory mess.  Allowing a 40 point power as a 
>>special effect is going a little overboard, IMO. 
>> 
>>Alan 
 
 
<snip> 
 
>The character as originally posted paid for Desolid, using his size change 
>as a SFX; you had no problem with that?  He was, after all, assuming away 
>over 400 active points worth of Shrinking as SFX in that instance.  I don't 
>recall anyone objecting to it, though; it seemed valid because he was only 
>using the extreme amount of size change to get through the wall:  Desolid 
>represented what was being done, size change did no more than explain how. 
> 
>Damon 
 
Exactly, special effects can be anything you want.  In your example the 
power he paid for was the effect he got.  In the case of FTL you are not 
supposed to use it inside of an atmosphere.  Even inside of the telephone 
wire you are in an atmosphere.  Desolid is a, dubious, way at best to get 
around this limitation and only acceptable as a house rule. 
 
 
Alan 
 
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 02:22:47 -0500 
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>> The clinging construction does that wonderfully. I builds using 
>> completely legal methods, using no optional rules, what the hypothetical 
>> player wants, and can be campaign portable. Someone with a 23- climbing 
>> wouldn't be allowed in a campiagn with 16- maxes on skill (for example). 
 
 
Rat replies, 
 
>And it also does a bunch of things that go well beyond simply being "the 
>greatest climber in the world". 
 
 
Here is a quote from one of your earlier posts.  I think you disagree with 
everyone now, including yourself. :) 
 
Rat also states: 
 
"No, I am saying that with the limitations (plural!) on it, the power 
duplicates Climbing.  At which point the Requires Skill Roll really means, 
"should have been purchased as a skill"." 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 07:01:43 -0600 
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
>  
> Curtis Gibson writes: 
>  
> > What happens to the player who wants 'the greatest climber in the world' 
> > in a campaign that doesn't allow extraordinary skill rolls. 
>  
> I think you have a GM that needs to rethink a campaign guidelines if he 
> allows this character into the game. 
 
There is also all of the other things that allowing over 18 on skill 
rolls brings along with it _besides_ the optional extraordinary skill 
rolls. Be that as it may... 
 
 
You sidestepped the main point of my post, so I will re-iterate it as a 
yes or no question for you to answer (Yes or no).... 
 
Are you advocating using an _optional_ rule over a legal power 
construct? 
 
Please anwer yes or no, Rat. 
 
The tone of all your posts seem to be 'go for the non-optional, most 
legal', which in this case is the limited clinging... because the 
extra-ordinary skill role rule is _optional_. 
 
-Mhoram 
 
--  
 
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages, 
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and 
goes through their pockets.    -- Eddy Peters 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 07:06:12 -0600 
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
GAZZA wrote: 
>  
> > Mental powers (and a few others) operate along a "line-of-sight" 
> > basis. 
> > That is, you must be able to see your target.  But can line-of-sight 
> > include things like video surveillance?  Could a mentalist sit in a 
> > separate room watching a monitor and attack the people he sees on 
> > screen?  How about through a mirror?  Do the mental powers work that 
> > way, or would you have to buy Indirect? 
>  
> IMHO? No, they can't work via video surveillance or mirrors. 
>  
> I play LOS as DIRECT LOS. That is - my primary viewing mechanism 
> (hereafter referred to as my 'sight') must be able to trace a 
> straight line to my target. 
 
I's allow through a mirror, but probably at slight OECV penalty. Just as 
I'd allow a trick shooting energy projector to fire at someone behind 
him by looking in a mirror. 
 
The rest are right out though- although I have seen a couple of 
instancesstory where someone used a mental power (in both case 
telekenisis) 'through' a video monitor. 
 
-Mhoram 
--  
 
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages, 
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and 
goes through their pockets.    -- Eddy Peters 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 07:19:47 -0600 
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Stat vs Stat 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
>    Here's an idea that I just now came up with. 
 
An interesting one 
 
>    What if for Stat vs Stat checks, instead of rolling damage dice or Stat 
> Rolls and comparing the results, these were just boiled down to the 
> equivalent of an Attack Roll?  A STR vs STR Roll, to use the most 
> frequently-used instance as an example, would become (Attacker's STR/3) + 
> 11 - (Defender's STR/3) or less. 
 
Doing the skill roll approach would be cause for a greater range of 
results. If a Martial artist with a 60 STR Grab is holding on to the 
mini-brick with a 50 STR, it's going to take a good roll but not 
unspectacular for the defender to break it, but with the skill vs skill 
the chance of holding on would be 14- which would result in the Grabber 
holding on more often. (I think, I'm not really that great with figuring 
odds.) 
 
There is also the shallowing of the bell curve the more dice are 
involved. Switching to a 3d6 reslution would make much more varied 
results. If that is part of what you are after... well then. 
 
>    For that matter, Skill vs Skill can be done the same way, with any 
> appropriate Skill Levels (including plain old plusses to the Skill Roll) 
> being used as a modifer in favor of the character who has them.  Thus, 
> Perception vs Stealth would become (Perceiver's INT/3) + (Perceiver's 
> Enhanced Perception and Levels) + 11 - (Stealthist's DEX/3) - (Stealthist's 
> Levels).  (Or, the Stealthist and Perceiver could be reversed, depending on 
> how the GM wants to consider things.) 
 
This also does one other thing... the system as it currently stands is 
how well the perciever sees against how well the stelther stealths (ie 
how well he made his skill roll) rather than how well he _can_ stealth 
(raw skill number as in your example) 
 
>    I don't know if this is something to put in Hero5 (in place of the 
> current Stat vs Stat and Skill vs Skill methods, or at least as an option 
> for that), but it's something I thought I'd put out for people to consider. 
 
I like the idea of it, with just those two concerns. I may try it in a 
limited run campaign to see how it works. 
-Mhoram 
 
--  
 
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages, 
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and 
goes through their pockets.    -- Eddy Peters 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 07:06:03 -0700 
To: GoldRushG <GoldRushG@aol.com> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Good/bad cops 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 07:43 PM 5/23/1998 EDT, GoldRushG wrote: 
><< And please don't be too offended when I ignore this request.  In any 
modern 
>campaign, police attitudes and such can be very important.  I'm not going to 
>tread lightly just because you happen to work in the profession.  If someone 
>wanted to talk about the bad points of all English Majors, I'd debate on it, 
>but I wouldn't ask for the discussion to be squelched. >> 
   [snip] 
>  I find the thread insulting and offensive. You are entitled to your 
opinion. 
>I was of the impression that this list was for the sharing of ideas about the 
>Hero System, not about bashing cops and the LE profession. If the latter 
is to 
>be permitted, and if people are desirous of continuing such a discussion 
>despite the fact that a fellow list member finds it offensive, then so be it. 
>Have your discussion. I will leave the list. 
> 
>  I work too hard at my job and have seen too many courageous comrades buried 
>serving the public to want to stay on such a list. 
 
   Don't bother leaving, Mark.  The discussion's dead already. 
   Besides, Tim's just being a typical English-major college student.  He 
knows only his firsthand experience and doesn't think things through to 
look at the broad picture.  (You know, kinda like Mike Stivic on "All In 
the Family" -- a lot of ideas and thoughts, but no connection with the real 
world.  Good brain, but doesn't bother to use it that much.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 07:21:03 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Stat vs Stat 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 07:19 AM 5/24/1998 -0600, Curtis Gibson wrote: 
>There is also the shallowing of the bell curve the more dice are 
>involved. Switching to a 3d6 reslution would make much more varied 
>results. If that is part of what you are after... well then. 
 
   As long as there's a bell curve (minimum of 3 dice), you still have 
enough variance for play (IMO).  More than that, unless you need a really 
wide range, adds more to counting than you get as a benefit for that variance. 
 
>>    For that matter, Skill vs Skill can be done the same way, with any 
>> appropriate Skill Levels (including plain old plusses to the Skill Roll) 
>> being used as a modifer in favor of the character who has them.  Thus, 
>> Perception vs Stealth would become (Perceiver's INT/3) + (Perceiver's 
>> Enhanced Perception and Levels) + 11 - (Stealthist's DEX/3) - (Stealthist's 
>> Levels).  (Or, the Stealthist and Perceiver could be reversed, depending on 
>> how the GM wants to consider things.) 
> 
>This also does one other thing... the system as it currently stands is 
>how well the perciever sees against how well the stelther stealths (ie 
>how well he made his skill roll) rather than how well he _can_ stealth 
>(raw skill number as in your example) 
 
   Try considering the roll to be not just how the perceiver perceives, but 
how the perception and the stealth compare.  If (using the existing method) 
the perceiver makes his roll by 3 and the stealthist by 2, then the result 
is the same as if the perceiver makes his roll by 1 and the stealthist 
makes his exactly.  This Roll just determines how the two compare with a 
single Roll, rather than having to make separate Rolls and doing the math. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 09:45:04 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Based on Con for Entangle 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sun, 24 May 1998, qts wrote: 
 
> Hmm... In typing the above I accidentally mistyped 'Con' as 'Com'. I 
> wonder what the SFX of a Com based/defended Entangle would be? 
 
Hmm...the only ones that come to mind would be /harder/ to shake off with 
high COM: 
 
* Narcissus Mirror - you see your reflection and are captivated. 
* Horde of Screaming Teenage Girls - the 'Pre-Teen' version of this attack 
  also works well on people who have bought their COM down in such a way 
  that they look like members of 'Hanson'. 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 10:59:52 -0400 
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Stat vs Stat 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 02:28 PM 5/23/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   Here's an idea that I just now came up with. 
 
Assuming a lot of latitude here: 
 
>   What if for Stat vs Stat checks, instead of rolling damage dice or Stat 
>Rolls and comparing the results, these were just boiled down to the 
>equivalent of an Attack Roll?  A STR vs STR Roll, to use the most 
>frequently-used instance as an example, would become (Attacker's STR/3) + 
>11 - (Defender's STR/3) or less. 
 
This makes the seemingly impossible, actually impossible.  A STR vs STR 
roll with 50 vs 25 becomes an 11 + 17 - 8 or 20-.  But in reality, if 3 of 
the 10 dice are 1s with no 6s and 3 of the 5 dice are 6s with no 1s, the 25 
STR breaks out.  Not good odds, but not impossible either.  If you change 
it so that 3 always succeeds and 18 always fails, you skew the chances the 
other way. 
 
>   For that matter, Skill vs Skill can be done the same way, with any 
>appropriate Skill Levels (including plain old plusses to the Skill Roll) 
>being used as a modifer in favor of the character who has them.  Thus, 
>Perception vs Stealth would become (Perceiver's INT/3) + (Perceiver's 
>Enhanced Perception and Levels) + 11 - (Stealthist's DEX/3) - (Stealthist's 
>Levels).  (Or, the Stealthist and Perceiver could be reversed, depending on 
>how the GM wants to consider things.) 
 
A question: I assume you mean a stealth vs perception roll.  Let's 
Character S has a DEX of 14 and spends 5 points on stealth.  Normally that 
would give him a Stealth of 14-.  Now above you say DEX/3.  Did you mean 
DEX/3 + 1 because I spent an extra 2 points on stealth?  Or, Stealth/3?  I 
assume you are talking about a SkillCV.  So skill level would be 9 + stat/5 
+ 1/2CP and SCV would be skill level/3?  My first problem is all of this it 
adds a lot of math to what use to be a comparison.  Also, all skills have 
to have two numbers associated with them on the character sheet. 
 
>   This would result in somewhat less die-rolling in a game, simpler 
>resolution for certain tasks, and a better reason to buy stats at a value 
>other than those ending with 0, 3, 5, 8. 
 
How would concealment work?  There is only one concealment roll per any 
number of search rolls.  I wouldn't want to see both set of rules included 
in the game system as that would be confusing. 
 
>   I don't know if this is something to put in Hero5 (in place of the 
>current Stat vs Stat and Skill vs Skill methods, or at least as an option 
>for that), but it's something I thought I'd put out for people to consider. 
 
I don't think it's a good idea, Bob.  The success rate would go all to 
hell.  If Char S above is sneaking past a guard (Int 10).  Normally he 
would have 14- roll vs the guard's 11- roll.  His chance of succeeding by 1 
or more is far greater than the guard's.  Your way would just be a 13- 
success roll (I think).  I don't think the percentages work out correctly. 
(I may be wrong, and I don't have the time now to actually calculate them.) 
 
And why would you consider putting into Hero5 if you haven't tried it on an 
ongoing basis?  Try this in one of your campaigns and let us know how it 
goes, but I think the percentages are skewed too much. 
 
  Joe 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 11:18:43 -0400 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com&> champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Stat vs Stat 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 07:21 AM 5/24/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   Try considering the roll to be not just how the perceiver perceives, but 
>how the perception and the stealth compare.  If (using the existing method) 
>the perceiver makes his roll by 3 and the stealthist by 2, then the result 
>is the same as if the perceiver makes his roll by 1 and the stealthist 
>makes his exactly.  This Roll just determines how the two compare with a 
>single Roll, rather than having to make separate Rolls and doing the math. 
 
But this does not work at the extremes.  Try an 8- versus an 11-.  The 
chance of getting a 7 is very low, but a 10 is not so bad.  However, 11 + 
11/3 - 8/3 is a 12-.  This does not accurately reflect the chance when 
using the two die rolls.  If you reverse it, it's even worse: the guy with 
the 8- in the skill only needs a 10- to succeed! 
 
I worked on this for a GURPS project (everything is skill vs skill in 
GURPS) and nothing that works with low skill values also works with high 
skill levels, and vice versa. 
 
Based on my experience, if you don't care about the low end of the scale 
your method will work fine in SuperHero games. 
 
  Joe 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "rossrannells@worldnet.att.net" <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Sun, 24 May 98 15:20:24  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Based on Con for Entangle 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sat, 23 May 1998 16:12:22 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
 
> 
> 
>qts wrote: 
> 
>> On Sat, 23 May 1998 12:10:49 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
>> 
>> >I don't know if this has been discussed before (if it has I'd appreciate 
>> > 
>> >directions to a FAQ about it) but I've run into a diagreement with some 
>> >players over a special advantage I allow in my campaign.  The 
>> >advantage being "Based on Con", it's  a one half advantage and requires 
>> >a lot of scrutiney to be allowed.  My justification for this is that you 
>> >could 
>> >but the power apply a Based on Ego advantage and then a Based on 
>> >Con disadvantage and get the same effect at a cheaper cost. One 
>> >area where this advantage is becoming common is as an Entagle 
>> >advantage to simulate paralyzying weapons (taser, wide dispersion 
>> >phasers. etc.).  Low Con characters are really starting to complain 
>> >because the 3D6 Entangle, based on Con (standard Taser in the 
>> >campaign) is taking them out right and left.They want the attack dropped 
>> > 
>> >or a defence for it.  My responce so far has been buy up your Con.  A 
>> >regular entangle's only defense is a high Str and an Entangle based on 
>> >Ego's only defence is a high Ego, so what's the problem with the high 
>> >Con for based on Con advantage? 
>> 
>> BOECV is +1, n'est-ce pas? Ego costs 2/1 So does Con, so BoC should 
>> also be +1. 
>> 
>> qts 
>> 
>> Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
> 
>One difference BOECV uses ECV for to hit rolls whiles BoC use standard OCV 
>and DCV.  Since BoC attack have some physical or energy component they can be 
>Missile Deflected.  In short BoC is not as advantageous as BoECV, so why 
>should they cost the same? 
 
The above description gave no hint of that. But to rebut the specific 
point, BOECV attacks can be Deflected, given appropriate SFX. 
 
Perhaps you'd care to post your full rules for BoC? 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Bob Greenwade" <bob.greenwade@klock.com&> 
        "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Sun, 24 May 98 15:28:29  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Based on Con for Entangle 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sat, 23 May 1998 15:16:02 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
>At 06:24 PM 5/23/1998, qts wrote: 
>>BOECV is +1, n'est-ce pas? Ego costs 2/1 So does Con, so BoC should 
>>also be +1. 
> 
>   BOECV has other advantages as well -- the advantage given in its name, 
>for instance (Based On Ego Combat Value), and the fact that Range Mods are 
>done away with for the attack. 
 
Granted, but IMO it more reflects the fact that few characters have a 
high EGO. Part of the problem is that the original query was not 
sufficiently detailed. Anyway, I would suggest that it's largely 
irrelevant here as we're interested in the *resistance* to the 
Entangle. Normal Entangles are resisted by Str which costs 1/1. an Ego 
based Entangle is resisted by Ego which costs 2/1, at a cost of a +1 
Advantage. Thus an Entangle resisted by Con which also costs 2/1, 
should have a like Advantage, ie +1. 
 
Hmm... In typing the above I accidentally mistyped 'Con' as 'Com'. I 
wonder what the SFX of a Com based/defended Entangle would be? 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 10:35:54 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
cc: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com&> champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Stat vs Stat 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sun, 24 May 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
> At 07:21 AM 5/24/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
<bob's method snipped> 
  
> But this does not work at the extremes.  Try an 8- versus an 11-.  The 
> chance of getting a 7 is very low, but a 10 is not so bad. 
 
Well, remember that in HERO (or GURPS, for that matter), a +1 to skill is 
not a set percentage, because of the bell curve.  In, say, Interlock (or 
the Interlock method of Fuzion rolling), +1 to skill /is/ a set percentage 
because you're only rolling 1 die. 
 
Basically, what I'm saying is that an 11- is a /lot/ better than an 8-, so 
I don't have a problem with Bob's 'roll both and see who did better' 
mechanic. 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 10:37:57 -0500 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Rat, if you don't want Climbing to be the skill that Clinging w/RSR is associated  
with, what about defining a separate Clinging SKILL, which the "skilled Clinger"  
must purchase separately? This skill wouldn't have any other use besides  
limiting the Clinging power, so it doesn't technically overlap Climbing. 
 
Guy 
---------------------------------- 
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com) 
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/ 
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf 
and the PANGAEA Project! 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
Date: Sun, 24 May 98 15:42:49  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sat, 23 May 1998 23:27:15 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
 
>Mike Christodoulou wrote: 
>>Mental powers (and a few others) operate along a "line-of-sight" basis. 
>>That is, you must be able to see your target.  But can line-of-sight 
>>include things like video surveillance?  Could a mentalist sit in a  
>>separate room watching a monitor and attack the people he sees on  
>>screen?  How about through a mirror?  Do the mental powers work that 
>>way, or would you have to buy Indirect? 
 
More generally, IMC it has to be a Targetting Sense. TV does not 
qualify, though it might give a bonus to your Mind Scan if it were live 
TV. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 10:53:07 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
GAZZA writes: 
>"With great flexibility comes great complexity". Offhand, I 
>cannot think of ANY of the so-called "simple to learn" systems 
>that were really worth playing on a long term basis ... snip 
 
Flexibility does carry a certain minimum amount of complexity, but I think 
most of the complexity from Hero is just a from a great system that hasn't 
reached its full potential yet.  Specifically, Hero could be made a lost 
less complex--for both designing things and running them--if it supported 
more of a component architecture.  (Please excuse me if I lapse too far 
into computer terms here, but I want to keep this short.) 
 
This is the way I think Hero should be structured: 
	Meta Hero (M) - why; design philosphy, guidelines 
	Rules (R) - how; powers, skills, etc. 
	Components (C) - what; typical effects:  claws, weapons, fireballs, etc. 
	Source (S) - full-fledged examples; characters, creatures, vehicles, etc., 
		but don't repeat all the mechanics, just list the components.  
 
Right now, Hero just has R and S, with a little of M thrown in scattered 
through the rules.  C does not exist in any structured form.  I.e, there 
isn't a list of different ways and kinds of claws already built that I can 
just plug on a monster.  Instead, I've got to look at various S examples to 
see how other characters have done it (which are not consistent), pick the 
way I want, then copy it.  In short, reuse is much harder than it has to 
be. 
 
With some serious work out of several people, I think Hero could be made 
playable strictly from the C and S levels.  M and R are there for people 
who like to tinker with the rules (everyone on this list :-).  All most 
RGPers want is the ability to plug and play bits of creatures, spells, 
superhero effects, ects. 
 
We have two GMs in our group, out of 8 players.  I'm convinced that half of 
the rest could easily GM if Hero were structured this way.  How about the 
rest of you.	 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 11:53:29 -0400 
To: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Stat vs Stat 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:35 AM 5/24/98 -0500, Sakura wrote: 
>On Sun, 24 May 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>> At 07:21 AM 5/24/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
><bob's method snipped> 
>  
>> But this does not work at the extremes.  Try an 8- versus an 11-.  The 
>> chance of getting a 7 is very low, but a 10 is not so bad. 
> 
>Well, remember that in HERO (or GURPS, for that matter), a +1 to skill is 
>not a set percentage, because of the bell curve.  In, say, Interlock (or 
>the Interlock method of Fuzion rolling), +1 to skill /is/ a set percentage 
>because you're only rolling 1 die. 
 
I know +1 is not a set percentage.  I'm saying that the chance of Char X's 
and Char Y's interaction will be different with Bob's method as compared to 
the HSR method. 
 
>Basically, what I'm saying is that an 11- is a /lot/ better than an 8-, so 
>I don't have a problem with Bob's 'roll both and see who did better' 
>mechanic. 
 
Yes, 11- is a lot better than 8-.  But Bob's system would make that a 
"simple" 12- roll (you snipped that part of my example).  A 12- is only 
somewhat better than an 11- minus.  In a normal 11- vs 8- roll, the chance 
of the 11- rolling better than the 8- minus is probably 85-90% which is 
equivalent to a 14-, not a 12-. 
 
I'm arguing against the change in the shape of the bell curve.  If you 
don't care that the curve will be different (in some case extremely 
different) than the normal HSR curves, give it a try.  I think it changes a 
fundamental (currently unquantifiable) balance in the rules.  YMMV. 
 
  Joe 
 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 24 May 1998 12:28:51 -0400 
Lines: 24 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Remnant  writes: 
 
> Here is a quote from one of your earlier posts.  I think you disagree with 
> everyone now, including yourself. :) 
 
Thank you for quoting me out of context. 
 
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--  
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 24 May 1998 12:32:40 -0400 
Lines: 25 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Curtis Gibson writes: 
 
> Are you advocating using an _optional_ rule over a legal power 
> construct? 
 
I am advocating the use of a game mechanic that mirrors the desired effect 
over a by-the-book technically accurate power construct that does not. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 24 May 1998 12:33:16 -0400 
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ghoyle1  writes: 
 
> Rat, if you don't want Climbing to be the skill that Clinging w/RSR is 
> associated with, 
 
I want a mechanic that simulates the desired effect! 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 12:38:10 -0400 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:53 AM 5/24/98 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
>This is the way I think Hero should be structured: 
>	Meta Hero (M) - why; design philosphy, guidelines 
>	Rules (R) - how; powers, skills, etc. 
>	Components (C) - what; typical effects:  claws, weapons, fireballs, etc. 
>	Source (S) - full-fledged examples; characters, creatures, vehicles, etc., 
>		but don't repeat all the mechanics, just list the components.  
> 
>Right now, Hero just has R and S, with a little of M thrown in scattered 
>through the rules.  C does not exist in any structured form.  I.e, there 
>isn't a list of different ways and kinds of claws already built that I can 
>just plug on a monster.  Instead, I've got to look at various S examples to 
>see how other characters have done it (which are not consistent), pick the 
>way I want, then copy it.  In short, reuse is much harder than it has to 
>be. 
 
Bullseye!  I was recently introduced to GURPS and I love the Magic system 
in it.  Why?  Because it contains references to itself.  Wouldn't it be 
cool if the FH spells had limitations like (-1/4) must already know Spell 
X?  I've been toying with doing this for my own game.  Does anyone use the 
current spell colleges? 
 
While GURPS itself has its own problems, I think HERO could benefit from a 
The Ultimate Special Effect book.  It would be impossible to write all at 
once but it could be done. 
 
I was looking at the Source book part of Champions and noticed some of this 
work.  It just needs some fleshing out.  Fire, radiation, corrosives, etc 
are detailed, but what does cold do?  There LS: Vacuum, but what damage 
does Hard Vacuum do?  How about low air pressure? 
 
 
>With some serious work out of several people, I think Hero could be made 
>playable strictly from the C and S levels.  M and R are there for people 
>who like to tinker with the rules (everyone on this list :-).  All most 
>RGPers want is the ability to plug and play bits of creatures, spells, 
>superhero effects, ects. 
 
Well, you would need rules (R) or even Meta for balance purposes.  I 
thought you were looking for a Ultimate Superpower book.  But you want a 
Superpowers Grimore.  A whole section on claws, fire, invisibility, etc. 
That would be huge, cf. Hero Templates from back in February on this list. 
(Anyone still working on that?) 
 
  Joe 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> "Sakura" <jeffj@io.com> 
Date: Sun, 24 May 98 16:49:04  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Based on Con for Entangle 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sun, 24 May 1998 09:45:04 -0500 (CDT), Sakura wrote: 
 
>On Sun, 24 May 1998, qts wrote: 
> 
>> Hmm... In typing the above I accidentally mistyped 'Con' as 'Com'. I 
>> wonder what the SFX of a Com based/defended Entangle would be? 
> 
>Hmm...the only ones that come to mind would be /harder/ to shake off with 
>high COM: 
> 
>* Narcissus Mirror - you see your reflection and are captivated. 
 
That's Mind Control OAF Mirror. Good for those  who are vain. 
 
>* Horde of Screaming Teenage Girls - the 'Pre-Teen' version of this attack 
 
YES! :} 
 
>  also works well on people who have bought their COM down in such a way 
>  that they look like members of 'Hanson'. 
 
Who? I don't have a TV and am in the UK. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 12:53:25 -0400 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:32 PM 5/24/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Curtis Gibson writes: 
>> Are you advocating using an _optional_ rule over a legal power 
>> construct? 
> 
>I am advocating the use of a game mechanic that mirrors the desired effect 
>over a by-the-book technically accurate power construct that does not. 
 
They others are looking for a power where you can hang on to an overhang 
and occasionally fall.  So they took Clinging with RSR.  The skill they 
choose was Climbing because the Special Effect is superhuman expertise with 
climbing. 
 
Would you object if: 
 
...they bought it as Clinging, Activation? 
 
...how about Clinging, RSR (Eastern wall friction meditation)? 
 
Are you saying that limitations on Clinging cannot be used to simulate 
supernatural climbing skill wherein the person can still make a mistake and 
fall off of the surface?  If so, does that mean that Clinging has some 
hidden special effect that the HSR does not tell us about? 
 
Climbing is not very well defined in the rulebook.  In fact, failure of a 
roll does not necessarily mean the character falls unless the roll was 
"spectacularly bad" (BBB 22).  I don't understand what your problem with 
this construct is.  It costs more than straight Climbing because it 
requires the Climbing skill as well as the Clinging power. 
 
  Joe 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 13:32:10 -0400 
To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk&> "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 06:14 PM 5/24/98, qts wrote: 
>On Sun, 24 May 1998 12:38:10 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>>Bullseye!  I was recently introduced to GURPS and I love the Magic system 
>>in it.  Why?  Because it contains references to itself.  Wouldn't it be 
>>cool if the FH spells had limitations like (-1/4) must already know Spell 
>>X?  I've been toying with doing this for my own game.  Does anyone use the 
>>current spell colleges? 
> 
>More or less. Instead of 'Must have X points in College', I use an 
>Expertise system 'Must have X points in KS: Particular College'. I also 
>use VPPs as players like to be able to change spells, and it better 
>models wizards of literature. 
 
You see but that's a no.  I want to use VPPs but it looks far more 
expensive than the normal system.  While most spells have low real costs, 
the active costs are pretty high sometimes.  Do you vary X by spell? 
 
>If you're interested, I'll email it to you. 
 
I'd be interested in what limitations you put on the VPP control cost. 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 11:58:52 -0600 
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
>  
> Curtis Gibson writes: 
>  
> > Are you advocating using an _optional_ rule over a legal power 
> > construct? 
>  
> I am advocating the use of a game mechanic that mirrors the desired effect 
> over a by-the-book technically accurate power construct that does not. 
>  
When what I wrote was... 
 
>>You sidestepped the main point of my post, so I will re-iterate it as a 
>>yes or no question for you to answer (Yes or no).... 
 
>>Are you advocating using an _optional_ rule over a legal power 
>>construct? 
 
>>Please anwer yes or no, Rat. 
 
Rat apparently could not answer a question yes or no. But I think his 
answer is close to a yes: Optional rules can be better than by the book 
rules. 
 
And as Rat could not answer the question put to him in the manner 
presented, I'm outta this argument. 
--  
 
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages, 
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and 
goes through their pockets.    -- Eddy Peters 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
Date: Sun, 24 May 98 18:10:52  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sun, 24 May 1998 12:08:23 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
 
>qts wrote: 
>>  
>>  
>> More generally, IMC it has to be a Targetting Sense. TV does not 
>> qualify, though it might give a bonus to your Mind Scan if it were live 
>> TV. 
> 
>Seeing a person on TV, transmitting live from a known location, is going  
>to allow the mentalist to strongly limit the area for the Mind Scan.   
>That is enough of a bonus, IMHO. 
 
Agreed, but I'm making the distinction between Clairsentience, which is 
Targetting, and TV, which isn't, because the PC isn't controlling it. 
 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Joe Mucchiello" <why@superlink.net> 
Date: Sun, 24 May 98 18:14:10  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sun, 24 May 1998 12:38:10 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
 
>At 10:53 AM 5/24/98 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
>>This is the way I think Hero should be structured: 
>>	Meta Hero (M) - why; design philosphy, guidelines 
>>	Rules (R) - how; powers, skills, etc. 
>>	Components (C) - what; typical effects:  claws, weapons, fireballs, etc. 
>>	Source (S) - full-fledged examples; characters, creatures, vehicles, etc., 
>>		but don't repeat all the mechanics, just list the components.  
>> 
>>Right now, Hero just has R and S, with a little of M thrown in scattered 
>>through the rules.  C does not exist in any structured form.  I.e, there 
>>isn't a list of different ways and kinds of claws already built that I can 
>>just plug on a monster.  Instead, I've got to look at various S examples to 
>>see how other characters have done it (which are not consistent), pick the 
>>way I want, then copy it.  In short, reuse is much harder than it has to 
>>be. 
> 
>Bullseye!  I was recently introduced to GURPS and I love the Magic system 
>in it.  Why?  Because it contains references to itself.  Wouldn't it be 
>cool if the FH spells had limitations like (-1/4) must already know Spell 
>X?  I've been toying with doing this for my own game.  Does anyone use the 
>current spell colleges? 
 
More or less. Instead of 'Must have X points in College', I use an 
Expertise system 'Must have X points in KS: Particular College'. I also 
use VPPs as players like to be able to change spells, and it better 
models wizards of literature. 
 
If you're interested, I'll email it to you. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 13:23:39 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Rat writes: 
 
>Thank you for quoting me out of context. 
 
 
You're welcome.  I am sorry that you didn't choose to explain your 
contradiction and instead decided to imply that I took your quote out of 
context to make it appear to be a contradiction. 
 
You originally argued that Clinging RSR:  Climbing with a couple of other 
limitations duplicated Climbing alone and therefore was an invalid 
construct.  Now you argue that Clinging RSR:  Climbing with a couple of 
other limitations makes someone much more than simply the greatest climber 
in the world. 
 
If you can't or won't explain this apparent contradiction them I am going to 
have to believe that you simply can't admit when you are wrong. 
 
Alan 
 
 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 15:30:32 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sun, 24 May 1998, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
 
> This is the way I think Hero should be structured: 
> 	Meta Hero (M) - why; design philosphy, guidelines 
> 	Rules (R) - how; powers, skills, etc. 
> 	Components (C) - what; typical effects:  claws, weapons, fireballs,  
>               etc. 
> 	Source (S) - full-fledged examples; characters, creatures, vehicles,  
>               etc., but don't repeat all the mechanics, just list the 
>               components.  
 
The distinction between "R" and "C" is what I meant when I suggested a few 
messgaes back that they have "Advanced" and "Beginning" Character Creation 
rules. I definitely think it's a good idea. 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 11:31:51 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Poll: Champions Dialogues #1 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
There are a few disputes current in the group in which I both play and  
GM.  I would appreciate the opinion of the list on each.  I will be  
happy to receive private replies and summarize. 
 
Just to frustrate everyone, I will try to hide whether I am GM, player or  
bystander, and will try to present the arguments put forth by each side  
objectively.  I have eliminated invective and arguments that the maker  
later retracted as silly.  I have also combined repetitive arguments,  
eliminated uninformative repetition of the same point, and so on.  I have  
also eliminated a final resolution, if any. 
 
Dispute #1: The facts. 
 
A GM has decided that ED/rED "Only vs Fire or Heat-based attacks" is a  
valid -1/2 Limitation in his campaign, based on frequency.  Ignis, a  
fire-based character with EC: Command of Fire, wants to buy a large  
amount of ED/rED with that Limitation and place it in the EC.  The GM has  
ruled that defenses limited to the element of an EC belong in the EC.   
Ignis also has the Distinctive Feature that he is always aflame in Hero  
ID, and has an Always-On Damage Shield. 
 
The Dispute: 
 
Player:	I think that Ignis is entitled to a much larger Limitation, since  
Fire is less likely to be used against him, seeing that he obviously  
flames. 
 
GM: That is absurd.  The fact that you are obviously immune to fire does  
not make your defense less valuable; it makes it more valuable. 
 
Player: That is ridiculous.  The book states that I should get an  
additional limitation.  Look at the case of the Werewolf and Silver:  
silver isn't all that common, but *everyone* knows that silver harms  
werewolves. 
 
GM: You are misapplying the rule.  If a villain could tune his laser or  
alter his flame blasts to avoid your defense, I would agree, but he  
can't.  A flame-based villain or an agent with a flamethrower may shoot  
at you just because he has no other reasonable action.  Then, you will be  
very glad that you don't have the extra defense. 
 
Player: That is going to be rare -- there will generally be some other  
party member to shoot at, and the guy with the water cannon is going to  
be shooting at me and my vulnerability. 
 
GM: You already got extra points for that vulnerability because it is so  
glaringly obvious.  You have an extra, un-paid-for benefit of your other  
fire-based powers that you *look* invulnerable to fire.  And, because of  
those two things, you now want an extra Limitation?  That is abusive. 
 
Player: Look.  I am not asking for anything unreasonable.  My normal  
defenses are well within campaign limits for a Projector.  What I want,  
and should have, is immunity to any fire that I am likely to come up  
against in the campaign.  I don't want to be able to stand on the Sun,  
but I want to be able to walk through a blast-furnace or a volcano. 
 
GM: Much of that is covered by Life Support. 
 
Player: But, the book suggests pointing up intense fires as attacks that  
are not stopped by Life Support. 
 
GM: True.  I am willing to waive campaign limits to allow you to buy as  
much limited ED as you want, but you still have to pay for it. 
 
Player: But, it is less useful to me.  In practice, I could get most of  
the effect without buying the extra defense and spend the points on  
something that you would find far more obnoxious. 
 
GM: Actually, it would be within reasonable GM discretion to mandate a  
high defense to flame for a character with a fire EC. 
 
Player: Only if the extra limitation that I am talking about were  
granted. 
 
GM: That is part of the price break for the EC.  I can see taking Visible  
Power Effects on your Armor in the EC for +1/4, but that is all. 
 
Player: What about Visible Power Effects on my Armor at least? 
 
GM: The Armor is already Only in Hero ID.  You also have a visible Damage  
Shield, Always on, that is Only in Hero ID.  Putting Visible Power  
Effects on anything else in the EC strikes me as a Limitation that does  
not limit the character. 
 
====================================================================== 
 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 15:39:01 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Stat vs Stat 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sun, 24 May 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
 
> At 02:28 PM 5/23/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> >   What if for Stat vs Stat checks, instead of rolling damage dice or Stat 
> >Rolls and comparing the results, these were just boiled down to the 
> >equivalent of an Attack Roll?  A STR vs STR Roll, to use the most 
> >frequently-used instance as an example, would become (Attacker's STR/3) + 
> >11 - (Defender's STR/3) or less. 
 
Unless you have some really rigorous way of deciding who the "attacker" or 
"defender" is in any situation, it would be a good idea to change that 11 
to a 10. That way symmetry is maintained, and a contest between two people 
of equal capabilities becomes 50-50. 
 
> This makes the seemingly impossible, actually impossible.  A STR vs STR 
> roll with 50 vs 25 becomes an 11 + 17 - 8 or 20-.  But in reality, if 3 of 
> the 10 dice are 1s with no 6s and 3 of the 5 dice are 6s with no 1s, the 25 
> STR breaks out.  Not good odds, but not impossible either. 
 
Err... by "in reality", I assume you mean "under the current system", yes? 
At any rate, I don't have a huge problem with a system which makes it 
impossible to win a test of strength against somebody ~30 times as strong 
as you (+24 STR). 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 15:41:45 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Superman (1938) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On 23 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> > And EC's existence has been criticized enough, I think. Just to summarize: 
> > _every_ character should have a good concept, so what's the point of a 
> > construct which is supposedly there to give point-breaks for good concepts? 
>  
> Elemental Controls give a break for a tight special effect or a single 
> special effect, not good concepts. 
 
Yes, but I think the implicit assumption is that the two are connected. 
Why would one want to reward having a single SFX, unless it was felt that 
this indicates a good concept? 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 15:44:21 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On 23 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> >> I am twitchy about this, considering that Acrobatics already can affect 
> >> CV. 
>  
> > Not in Fourth Edition, it can't. The best it can do is provide a 
> > justification for a Surprise Maneuver bonus. 
>  
> Which part of "Acrobatics already can affect CV" does this contradict? 
 
The letter "V". 
 
Acrobatics can't _directly_ affect CV. Use of the skill can set up a 
circumstance where one (or more) of the standard combat modifiers comes 
into play, but then, lots of Skills can do that. 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 15:45:14 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: HSR <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Powers lists 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sat, 23 May 1998, Chad Riley wrote: 
 
> > >   I kinda like DCH, V&V/LL,  and MSH for some of their more absolute 
> > > nature...Mostly I've found that Hero could use some sort of 'creation' 
> > > power. Like the Energy solidification/Solid Illusions powers that are 
> > > rather common.... 
> > 
> > Transform does this. Alternately, if you're just creating simple geometric 
> > shapes, use Force Wall or Entangle. 
>  
> Actually, I also had thought that Summon would be good for the Energy Golems 
> or Giant Green Power Ring Spawned Manga Robots...... 
 
Definitely. I was thinking of creating inanimate objects, though. 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 12:08:23 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
qts wrote: 
>  
>  
> More generally, IMC it has to be a Targetting Sense. TV does not 
> qualify, though it might give a bonus to your Mind Scan if it were live 
> TV. 
 
Seeing a person on TV, transmitting live from a known location, is going  
to allow the mentalist to strongly limit the area for the Mind Scan.   
That is enough of a bonus, IMHO. 
 
I have allowed a PC mentalist to attack via a magical Clairsentience  
bought UBO.  I have had an NPC villain use it via his own Clairsentience.  
It would strike me as odd to allow it for N-Ray vision (per HSR, p. 55)  
and not to allow it for Clairsentience in the same location. 
 
I would allow it for a high-resolution TV set up in a base that has been  
specifically registered on known points and where the mentalist has  
practiced extensively with the system: possibly paying a WF for the  
skill. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: VPP and Magic (Was Re: How Complicated Is Champions?) 
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 14:31:28 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>>More or less. Instead of 'Must have X points in College', I use an 
>>Expertise system 'Must have X points in KS: Particular College'. I also 
>>use VPPs as players like to be able to change spells, and it better 
>>models wizards of literature. 
 
>You see but that's a no.  I want to use VPPs but it looks far more 
>expensive than the normal system.  While most spells have low real costs, 
>the active costs are pretty high sometimes.  Do you vary X by spell? 
 
>>If you're interested, I'll email it to you. 
 
>I'd be interested in what limitations you put on the VPP control cost. 
 
We use VPP, with all magic broken down into the 27 spheres of AD&D priests. 
 (Some of it overlaps FH spell colleges quite a bit.)  PC mages and priests 
must buy a "magic skill"  for each sphere (although it is cheaper at low 
levels, because of my house rules). 
 
The active cost bothered me too, until I came up with this.  The VPP can 
take no limits.  The control cost was always bought at a -1 limit (-1/2 for 
spell book or religious restrictions, the other -1/2 for when and how 
spells could be switched).  So the final control cost was always 1/4 the 
VPP.  Then I just jumped clear of the rules completely and decided that the 
control cost was the "active limit" instead.  For a price break (and ease 
of calculation), I used a 1/5 ration instead of 1/4.  It works like this: 
 
	VPP just like before, but no control cost required, active cost not based 
on 
		size of pool. 
	Every point in Active Limit gives 5 points of active cost in the pool. 
 
This way, with the active cost independent of the actual VPP, you can 
construct a "normal" character if you want, say, 30 point VPP (30 points) 
and 30 Active Limit (6 points).  Or, for only 3 more points, the character 
can cast 45 active point spells, without waiting for another 15 points in 
the pool.   
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 12:48:47 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogues #1 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Sakura wrote: 
>  
> On Sun, 24 May 1998, Robert A. West wrote: 
>  
> > at you just because he has no other reasonable action.  Then, you will be 
> > very glad that you don't have the extra defense. 
>  
> I think you misworded this? 
 
You are right.  I got caught halfway between, "Didn't sell back the extra  
defense" and "have the extra defense."  Thanks for the catch. 
 
 
>  
> > GM: That is part of the price break for the EC.  I can see taking Visible 
> > Power Effects on your Armor in the EC for +1/4, but that is all. 
> > 
> > Player: What about Visible Power Effects on my Armor at least? 
>  
> Um...this is also confused...the GM suggests taking visible effects and 
> then says 'don't take them, they're already visible?' 
 
Clumsy attempt on my part to compress a long part of the discussion.  The  
GM toyed with Visible, then expressed doubts because of the fact that  
there are other, already visible, powers that are already giving the same  
effect. 
 
 
>  
> Well, here's an example of a character who has Damage Shield, always on - 
> but doesn't have 'Visible Power Effects' on his rED, Only vs. Fire. 
>  
> The character would look normal, but be surrounded at a small distance by 
> an aura of flames.  Thus, the character does not look like he himself is 
> on fire, but like there is fire around him.  Sure, it's /likely/ that he's 
> immune to flames, but if he were 'on fire' I'd think that would be even 
> more likely. 
>  
> Basically, it sounds like the GM is limiting the player (saying that 
> anyone can tell he is immune to flames) without giving him the points for 
> it. 
>  
> Um...on the other hand, it just occurred to me that Armor is a Standard 
> Power...and it's therefore visible unless purchased otherwise. 
 
Hmmm...everyone was operating on the assumption that powers that do not  
affect another character and that do not normally use END are not  
visible.  Otherwise, Armor would have to be visible to three sense  
groups.  Perhaps we are in error, or remembering something from 3rd  
Edition. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 24 May 1998 15:56:03 -0400 
Lines: 26 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
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Joe Mucchiello writes: 
 
> They others are looking for a power where you can hang on to an overhang 
> and occasionally fall. 
 
We already have a Climbing skill, which does exactly that.  That is *NOT* 
superhuman.  While only a few world-class climbers can handle it, they *DO* 
it, with nothing more than their bare fingertips. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 24 May 1998 15:57:41 -0400 
Lines: 30 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
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Curtis Gibson writes: 
 
>> I am advocating the use of a game mechanic that mirrors the desired 
>> effect over a by-the-book technically accurate power construct that does 
>> not. 
 
[...] 
 
> Rat apparently could not answer a question yes or no. 
 
The question is not one that can be simply answered "yes" or "no".  Special 
effects always come first. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 24 May 1998 16:00:59 -0400 
Lines: 44 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Remnant  writes: 
 
> You're welcome.  I am sorry that you didn't choose to explain your 
> contradiction and instead decided to imply that I took your quote out of 
> context to make it appear to be a contradiction. 
 
You quoted me out of context, thus your perception of a contradiction. 
 
> You originally argued that Clinging RSR:  Climbing with a couple of other 
> limitations duplicated Climbing alone and therefore was an invalid 
> construct. 
 
The claim that it is an invalid construct because the whole point of it is 
to duplicate Climbing. 
 
> Now you argue that Clinging RSR: Climbing with a couple of other 
> limitations makes someone much more than simply the greatest climber in 
> the world. 
 
Yep.  Climbing does not allow one to stick to a wall; Clinging does. 
Rather, with Climbing, your natural Strength is used to hang on; with 
Clinging, the Clinging Strength is used.  Unless you remove that, too, in 
which case you no longer have the primary use of Clinging (first sentence 
rule). 
 
No contradiction. 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? (long) 
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 15:30:12 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<Well, you would need rules (R) or even Meta for balance purposes.  I 
<thought you were looking for a Ultimate Superpower book.  But you want a 
<Superpowers Grimore.  A whole section on claws, fire, invisibility, etc. 
<That would be huge, cf. Hero Templates from back in February on this list. 
<(Anyone still working on that?) 
 
<  Joe 
 
Not exacly what I want.  And I'm not advocating removing the rules and meta 
rules entirely.  (In fact, what I want are MORE meta rules.  Or another 
way, I want meta rules for all rules explicity stated, not just implied.  
Let me give an example. 
 
Right now, killing attacks and energy blast are fairly well explained as 
far as Rules (R) go.  Also, weapons are one of the few things presented as 
components, since no one bothers to list all the standard advantages and 
limitations--they just say "short sword, +1 OCV, 1d6+1", etc.  But give 
only the HSR to a new person and ask them to extend the weapon list--forget 
it!  Spend a few years playing and tinkering, pick up Ninja Hero (which 
explain a lot more "why" on the weapons), do a little reverse engineering 
on the existing lists (including working through the errors, where weapons 
were not bought the way HSR says they are)--do all that, and you can do 
your own weapons and make them fit. 
 
So yes, it's a tall order.  Not only do I want weapons fixed, I want the 
same thing for claws, and fire spells, and so on.  The way I see this 
happening is by very careful notation and division of the work into 
appropriate books.  For example, put M and R in a book by themselves, with 
pratically no examples.  You can buy it or not.  If you do not, then you 
are stuck guessing or just playing with what other books give you. 
 
Make a variety of component books.  Make some of them genre books.  A FH 
book might give the existing weapons list, the same thing for claws, wings, 
scales, fantasy armor--just one giant book of components, with a handful of 
pages at the beginning listing some popular FH optional rules and the 
corresponding meta rules to support the option.  On the other hand, make 
some component books grouped by subject--i.e. Bestiary Parts with just 
components on making monsters.  Note that their is some overlap.  And some 
decision would have to be made on not duplicating things too much, based on 
when books are coming out.  I think a 32 or 64 page book devoted to nothing 
but weapons would be great.  Present several different ways of doing 
weapons, and a fairly complete list for each. 
 
But do not do this.  Don't put a ton of very specific source examples in 
the rule book and the campaign book, because they start out annoying if I 
want to change things, and rapidly become completely useless if I do change 
things.  Rather restrict such things to their own books.  Make them small 
if necessary, even 32 pages. 
 
I suppose what I really want is a different structure to handle 
communication problems.  Templates can help, but they are only half.  It is 
the template/component combination that is powerful.  Let me pick on the 
Bestiary for a second.  (I actually like it, but I need to illustrate a 
point.)  Claws in that book are bought a certain way.  It may be standard, 
it may be official, it may even be the best--but it isn't my way.  Ditto 
for growth, flying, scales, etc.  Now, the book cannot be my way, because 
then Hero Games would really have people mad.  But it could have a section 
at the beginning that basically said:  When we list claws, followed by a 
damage class, this is how we bought it.  Same for every other component.  
Then the actual listing would be two things: 
 
	Much shorter, because no points, or other game mechanics, beyond that  
		necessary to use the monster 
	Much easier to change for an individual and still remain accurate and 
		useful. 
 
Listing would be something like this:  Dragon, giant lizard template, some 
adjustment to specific stats, claws-DC 8, wings-10", breath-DC 6, cone.  
Follow this with other types of dragon listing.  Then provide the ecology, 
habits, tactics type text.  If I change the way I do claws, then that whole 
page is still accurate and useful. 
 
Now that I write this, and think about someone's earlier response, I'd say 
you would have to divide R into play rules (PR) and design rules (DR).  The 
former is short and easy, the second is long and complicated.  Both have 
associated meta rules.  Do this, and a guy with PR, the bestiary, and 
whatever book has claw components (maybe also the bestiary) can make lots 
of changes to monsters with NO design rules or experience.  If my dragon 
example is a wimp (and it is), he has a whole list of claws to switch.  
"Boom!  I as GM decide all dragons have +4 DC on their claws and they use 
the reduced penetration, two attacks per action claws."  That was easy to 
tell the players and very clear. 
 
There's a lot more in this vein, but I'll stop now.  
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 16:16:50 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Re:Players who dont pay attention 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> >Got all this beat.  I'm playing in a AD & D game where three of the players 
> >get up the middle of the game, go in the bathroom, and smoke pot.  Often 
> >its just me and the GM sitting in the gaming room hanging out. 
> 
> Regardless of anyone's personal opinion of the legality issues involved, 
> going to another room and engaging in another unecessary activity should be 
> unacceptable. 
 
	I'll agree with that wholeheartedly.  Although I'm one to agree on 
periodic smoke breaks when playing in a non-smoking environment.  I've 
always found use in these smokebreaks to do a little strategy talk, etc. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 16:38:08 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Good/bad cops 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> things to their fellow man. I've made sacrifices that most people cannot 
> appreciate. To have my profession generalized, slandered, stereotyped and bad 
> mouthed by a group of people because of some isolated incidents they may have 
> experienced (or heard about) is offensive to me. It discredits the hard work 
> that I and most of my brothers and sisters in law enforcement have done as 
> good cops. 
 
	Oh get off your high horse!  Because you work in the field, I 
can't mention that I've had a mjority of bad experiences with cops, that's 
BS, plain and simple. 
 
>   I find the thread insulting and offensive. You are entitled to your opinion. 
> I was of the impression that this list was for the sharing of ideas about the 
> Hero System, not about bashing cops and the LE profession 
 
	It is about discussion, but some people couldn't handle a quick 
quip.  Especially you, who seem to feel that we should bend over backwards 
to keep from saying anything you don't like. 
 
> If the latter is to 
> be permitted, and if people are desirous of continuing such a discussion 
> despite the fact that a fellow list member finds it offensive, then so be it. 
> Have your discussion. I will leave the list. 
 
	Good bye.  You've made this threat any time you've been disagreed 
with.  This is an open and frank discussion board, but I've seen people 
tip-toeing around to keep from "scareing off" the corporate types. 
 
>   I work too hard at my job and have seen too many courageous comrades buried 
> serving the public to want to stay on such a list. 
 
	Quit thinking that everyone has to cater to you, that's what's 
pissed me off.  I'm trying to take the debate on police off list, and if 
you want to discuss it in that way, fine.  I'd love to hear some insights 
you have as to the better cops out there -- I personally haven't met many. 
 
	I'll take this off list, that's fair, but don't assume that your 
personal life is a reason for all of us to make this list all about you 
and your opinions. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 16:47:23 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions Listserv <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Good/bad cops 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> >  I work too hard at my job and have seen too many courageous comrades buried 
> >serving the public to want to stay on such a list. 
> 
>    Don't bother leaving, Mark.  The discussion's dead already. 
>    Besides, Tim's just being a typical English-major college student.  He 
> knows only his firsthand experience and doesn't think things through to 
> look at the broad picture.  (You know, kinda like Mike Stivic on "All In 
> the Family" -- a lot of ideas and thoughts, but no connection with the real 
> world.  Good brain, but doesn't bother to use it that much.) 
 
	Oh, thanks.  Actually, I do have some experiences besides my own, 
enough at least to show that cops aren't all that nice to the under 25 (or 
maybe 30) crowd.  I also have stories of years of persecution from law 
enforcement and military against my grandfather and his ancestors, being 
native american -- and this still goes on, though more at the federal 
level than the local.  I'm not going to lay down and agree that all cops 
are great, it's just not true.  May major point earlier, of course, is 
that I think this to be a matter of a general human failing -- people are 
drawn to positions where they can get a little bit of power, and are 
somewhat corrupted by that power.  (Ala George Orwell).  I compared it to 
teachers, and had a teacher privately jump down my throat.  This is 
ironic, because I start TAing, teaching two Freshman Comp courses in the 
fall, and my biggest worry is making sure that I don't abuse my power in 
any way -- I want to be fair, but know that I will have to be careful. 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 18:52:32 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Put off by what 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sat, 23 May 1998, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
 
> >"Cool! Look at all the options!" was my first reaction. Certainly it 
> >never occurred to me that it was complicated. I had played _D&D_, for 
> >Christs' sake (which is not as overcomplicated as AD&D, but still more 
> >complicated than Champions). 
>  
> Yikes!  Either you are an exception or had tons of experience with other 
> games.  I initially learned both pretty much on my own, which led to all 
> kinds of mistakes, but D&D was much easier AND I had the benefit of 
> learning it before learning Hero. 
 
IMO, D&D's reputation for simplicity is largely due to the fact that 
so many people learn it first; people think of it as the default, and 
anything which differs from it gets labelled confusing. But judged on 
its own merits, it's not a simple system at all; there are seperate 
rules for everything, with no overall consistency. 
 
(Champions suffers from this too, but not to the same extent IMO.) 
 
> Just curious, did you have this reaction as a player or a GM or both?  
 
Both. 
 
> Also, what prior game experience did you have? 
 
A lot of D&D, some V&V, a bit of Dragonquest. 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 18:57:03 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Based on Con for Entangle 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sat, 23 May 1998, Ross Rannells wrote: 
 
> I don't know if this has been discussed before (if it has I'd appreciate 
> directions to a FAQ about it) but I've run into a diagreement with some 
> players over a special advantage I allow in my campaign.  The 
> advantage being "Based on Con", it's  a one half advantage and requires 
> a lot of scrutiney to be allowed.  My justification for this is that you 
> could but the power apply a Based on Ego advantage and then a Based on 
> Con disadvantage and get the same effect at a cheaper cost. 
 
Based on CON is a Limitation that can only be applied to Mental Powers, 
not Powers bought Based on ECV. 
 
> One area where this advantage is becoming common is as an Entagle 
> advantage to simulate paralyzying weapons (taser, wide dispersion 
> phasers. etc.). 
 
The standard way to do this is Mind Control, based on CON, one command 
only (paralysis). 
 
> Low Con characters are really starting to complain because the 3D6 
> Entangle, based on Con (standard Taser in the campaign) is taking them 
> out right and left.They want the attack dropped or a defence for it.  My 
> responce so far has been buy up your Con.  A regular entangle's only 
> defense is a high Str 
 
No... high STR or any high AP normal or killing attack. 
 
> and an Entangle based on Ego's only defence is a high Ego, 
 
What? The Based on ECV Advantage only changes how a Power is targetted, 
not the effects of the target. To escape from a BoECV Entangle requires 
high STR or a high AP attack. 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 18:59:05 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sat, 23 May 1998, John Lansford wrote: 
 
> On Sat, 23 May 1998 11:33:12 -0400, you wrote: 
 
You should probably find a better attribution system for responses 
to a mailing list. 
 
> >Mental powers (and a few others) operate along a "line-of-sight" basis. 
> >That is, you must be able to see your target.  But can line-of-sight 
> >include things like video surveillance?  
 
Definitely yes IMO. 
 
> No. Otherwise, a mentalist assassin could kill anyone seen on a 
> television. 
 
That may be why the rules forbid Based on ECV Powers from doing BODY 
damage. 
 
> >  How about through a mirror? 
>  
> This is no different from looking through a window. Yes, this works; 
> it's not important that the victim be able to see the mentalist, only 
> that the mentalist see him (directly). 
 
How is seeing an image in a mirror "direct", but seeing an image on a  
TV screen not so? 
 
> >  Do the mental powers work that way, or would you have to buy Indirect? 
>  
> I wouldn't allow any mentalist power to work like this, for the 
> reasons I gave above. It would be way too easy for abuse and would 
> virtually destroy any campaign it was tried in. 
 
I've never seen any problem with it. Could you elaborate? 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 19:08:39 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sun, 24 May 1998, GAZZA wrote: 
 
> > "Cool! Look at all the options!" was my first reaction. Certainly it 
> > never occurred to me that it was complicated. I had played _D&D_, for 
> > Christs' sake (which is not as overcomplicated as AD&D, but still more 
> > complicated than Champions). 
>  
> Do you really think so? When I decided to start up a new 
> fantasy campaign about 18 months ago, I used D&D because it 
> was (IMHO) the simplest to learn (and I had a couple of new 
> players to break in). 
 
IMO, Ars Magica is the best system available for the fantasy genre. 
 
> Granted AD&D is complex, but I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say it was 
> more complicated than Hero. 
>  
> Of course, that's not to say either of them is OVERLY complex. 
> You want lots of options? Then you need a certain amount of 
> complexity. 
 
Yes, which is why I would never claim that Hero's character creation 
system is overly complex. (I wouldn't mind seeing characeristics 
streamlined, but that's a minor point.) But Hero's actual play mechanics, 
and to a much greater extent AD&D's, suffer from complexities which don't 
actually add much of anything to the game. (Generally in the form of 
having totally different rulesets to handle various activities, rather 
than a single flexible task resolution system.) 
 
> To return to the topic, though - the only really complex part 
> of Hero is character creation. 
 
Which isn't a major concern, since you only need to create a character 
once per campaign. 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 14:43:46 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Eric Chaves <rambler@sowest.net> 
Subject: apology (was Good/bad cops etc.) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
I apologize for unintentinally starting this flame war about good cops vs. 
bad cops. I just made a comment on players that really piss me off. 
 
Eric 
 
 
 
Geek Code 
**************************************************************************** 
GCS d++ H s:+ !g !p au+ a- w++ v++ C++++ UL+ P? L+ 3- E? N+++ K- W--- M++ !V 
po--- Y+ t++ 5 j R++ G'' tv++ b++ D++ B--- e- u** h+ f+ r n+ y** 
**************************************************************************** 
 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 16:16:43 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Vehicles -- the Vulnerability, *2 BODY, of Hero. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Has anyone ever noticed that the HSR Vehicle Design system *really bites*? 
 
I just tried to design a spaceship a few days ago. Among the things the 
system didn't answer was: 
a)How much crew does it need? 
b)How big should quarters be? 
c)What will it cost? 
d)What happens if my FTL system isn't compatible with the 'FTL' power? 
e)How much internal space is taken up by engines, control panels, 
computers, etc, and how does this change based on the available technology? 
f)How do I specify '1 months food supply'? "Life Support, No Need To Eat, 
One Continuing Charge (1 Month)"? 
g)Ditto air and water. 
h)How do I buy armor for exposed components which have a lesser armor than 
the vehicle itself, such as turrets? 
i)Why would any ship ever buy a power-consuming force field, when you can 
buy DEF up indefinitely without worrying about weight? And does DEF 25 at 
"Super future tech" weigh the same as DEF 25 as "Modern day tech"? 
j)Sensors -- buy a bunch of Enhanced Senses? What about ranges? 
 
Somehow, there has to be a medium between "PhD in Engineering" books like 
"Fire, Fusion, and Steel" and the three pages in HSR which allegedly cover 
everything from skateboards to starships. GURPS Vehicles is pretty close, a 
bit too math-heavy but not overwhelmingly so, but it suffers from the 
linearity of GURPS. "OK, your ship's weapons do 6d6*500, and your armor is 
DR 200,000 -- about average for a light freighter with no military hardware." 
 
Ultimate Super Vehicle, Wherefore Art Thou? 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 24 May 1998 20:06:15 -0400 
Lines: 51 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Robert A West writes: 
 
> Background: 
> A player is attempting to design a starting character named "The Mist".   
> He wants the character to have the movement abilities of  
> Desolidification, but feels that the character should be able to affect,  
> and be affected by, most things in the Physical World. 
 
The short version is, you can't have your cake and eat it, too. :) 
 
[...] 
 
> Player: Well, I have defined the "whatever" to include almost everying  
> under the sun: area-effect heat, electricity, wind, area-effect PD  
> attacks, anything that might dispel a local mist or set up a draft. 
 
This is the point where I have to ask, is Desolidification really a useful 
power at this point?  I would start looking at other ways to simulate the 
"less dense" form of mist rather than insubstantiality. 
 
First, Damage Reduction is a power that I like to use for this.  Varying 
degress of Damage Reduction can be used to simulate the effect of being 
less dense -- thus less affected by "physical" things -- without stepping 
all the way into insubstantiality. 
 
Second, Shapeshift to any form, linked to the Damage Reduction. 
 
Some small amount of Flight is probably useful to have as well.  Knockback 
Resistance might also be useful. 
 
That should do you as a pretty good start, I think.  A bit more expensive 
than Damage Reduction, but you do not have to pay for Affects Desolid on 
everything. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Vehicles -- the Vulnerability, *2 BODY, of Hero. 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 24 May 1998 20:11:52 -0400 
Lines: 77 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Lizard  writes: 
 
> I just tried to design a spaceship a few days ago. Among the things the 
> system didn't answer was: 
 
Hero isn't Mekton. :) 
 
> a)How much crew does it need? 
 
Special Effect. 
 
> b)How big should quarters be? 
 
Common sense (modified by campaign consistancy). 
 
> c)What will it cost? 
 
Whatever you think it should be worth. 
 
> d)What happens if my FTL system isn't compatible with the 'FTL' power? 
 
You are the GM.  That said, Extradimensional Movement is something to look 
at. 
 
> e)How much internal space is taken up by engines, control panels, 
> computers, etc, and how does this change based on the available technology? 
 
Special effect. 
 
> f)How do I specify '1 months food supply'? "Life Support, No Need To Eat, 
> One Continuing Charge (1 Month)"? 
> g)Ditto air and water. 
 
I would just pack 1 month's worth of food and water on the ship, and 
specify that the oxygen recycling system is good for that long.  Again, 
mostly special effects. 
 
Life Support for hull integrity is another matter; that should be purchased 
normally. 
 
> h)How do I buy armor for exposed components which have a lesser armor than 
> the vehicle itself, such as turrets? 
 
Buy armor for them. 
 
> i)Why would any ship ever buy a power-consuming force field, when you can 
> buy DEF up indefinitely without worrying about weight? 
 
Infinite DEF = infinite cost, both monetarilly and character points. 
 
> And does DEF 25 at "Super future tech" weigh the same as DEF 25 as 
> "Modern day tech"? 
 
Special effects, again. 
 
> j)Sensors -- buy a bunch of Enhanced Senses? What about ranges? 
 
Whatever you find to be reasonable.  Probably want some rMod skill levels 
for Perception on there, though. 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 10:16:39 +1000 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Copywrighting characters.  (!) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 09:49 PM 5/8/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>Hero Games writes: 
> 
>> (without registration, such a suit would be thrown out prima facie). 
> 
>I dunnow that it would be thrown out so much as never getting to court in 
>the first place.  You cannot sue under the Copyright Act of 1976, but you 
>can get legal injunction against the offender.  You just cannot get money 
>out of him; for that you need to register the copyright. 
 
I believe that an unregistered copyright holder can sue for loss of income 
but cannot get punative damages. A registered copyright holder can get 
punative damages. 
 
**************************************************************************** 
The Politician's Slogan 
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all 
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. 
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.' 
**************************************************************************** 
 
Mad Hamish 
 
Hamish Laws 
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au 
h_laws@tassie.net.au 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 10:16:55 +1000 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 08:26 AM 5/23/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>Sakura  writes: 
> 
>>> And with the limitations in question, 99% of them go away. 
> 
>> Is that a calculated percentage or just a number you pulled out of your 
>> hinder? I'm leaning towards the latter. 
> 
>The term is "hyberbole". 
> 
 
So you agree that there is _some_ difference between the construction 
(whatever the hell it originally was) and climbing at a very high level. As 
such how can you argue that the construction isn't legal? 
 
**************************************************************************** 
The Politician's Slogan 
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all 
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. 
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.' 
**************************************************************************** 
 
Mad Hamish 
 
Hamish Laws 
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au 
h_laws@tassie.net.au 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 10:17:03 +1000 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:49 PM 5/23/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Michael Surbrook writes: 
> 
> 
>>> "Healing" chemicals do not work as fast as AID.  The mechanic is bogus 
>>> from the get-go. 
> 
>> Whoa, since when do such things as 'real-world' limitations matter in in 
>> a superhero game? 
> 
>Since when have "healing poultices" been a staple of a superhero game? 
>That sounds more like a medieval setting or maybe a modern martial arts 
>setting. 
 
Who said they have to be a staple? they have to be possible. For possible 
effects consider Diablo (alchemist in Marvel comics). 
 
**************************************************************************** 
The Politician's Slogan 
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all 
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. 
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.' 
**************************************************************************** 
 
Mad Hamish 
 
Hamish Laws 
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au 
h_laws@tassie.net.au 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 10:24:56 +1000 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Mad Hamish <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au> 
Subject: Re: Based on Con for Entangle 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:28 PM 5/24/98, qts wrote: 
> 
>Hmm... In typing the above I accidentally mistyped 'Con' as 'Com'. I 
>wonder what the SFX of a Com based/defended Entangle would be? 
>qts 
> 
 
A crisis of self image? 
self loathing? 
 
**************************************************************************** 
The Politician's Slogan 
'You can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all 
of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time. 
Fortunately only a simple majority is required.' 
**************************************************************************** 
 
Mad Hamish 
 
Hamish Laws 
h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au 
h_laws@tassie.net.au 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 19:58:15 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On 24 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
 
<snip Rat's 'less dense form' construct of Damage Resistance, Flight, 
Shapeshift, etc> 
 
Er, that all is very nice, except for the fact that it doesn't seem to 
address the following: 
 
> > He wants the character to have the movement abilities of  
> > Desolidification 
 
I'm presuming that means the 'move through walls' aspect, since I don't 
know of any other movement powers imparted by Desolid... 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 22:08:06 -0400 (EDT) 
From: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net> 
To: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Vehicles -- the Vulnerability, *2 BODY, of Hero. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
Okay, ABCEFGI are all things that just aren't covered by the normal BBB 
rule book.  They were to be covered by Star Hero.  Hero Games never 
published a second edition that was compatible to the BBB, but if you can 
get ahold of the original Star Hero #50 it would answer most if not all of 
your questions about building. 
 
I personally don't know why the second printing was canceled, but I had 
heard that it was close to completion a long time ago.  Sigh, I was 
waiting with money in hand ready for its release, but the book never 
materialized. 
 
I don't know if TUSV will come to your rescue with this information, but 
if not, my suggestion would be to build it in a more complex spaceship 
building system and then convert it to hero to find the points.   
 
Equipment, location, costs, and all of those other things that ship 
building entails in most other games are really nice, but it all comes 
down to how do you want things to work in your world?   
 
If your technology level is that of say newer Star Trek... You don't need 
food storage space because you use replicators.  The original series used 
food cubes which required little space.  Babylon 5 requires all of the 
things you mentioned.  All of these technology differences makes it 
hard for any one system to be right for everyone. 
 
Now with that said the other items on your list can be handled. 
 
> d)What happens if my FTL system isn't compatible with the 'FTL' power? 
 
Use X-Dimensional movement, or MASSIVE teleport. 
 
For a B5-like campaign that I ran, I actually used X-Dimensional movement 
to open a worm hole and then created a fuel based system to determine how 
long the craft could stay in hyperspace.  I didn't worry about FTL because 
the story was more important than the actual game mechanics for me.(I 
built the ships, the players just purchased them) 
 
> h)How do I buy armor for exposed components which have a lesser armor than 
> the vehicle itself, such as turrets? 
 
After calculating the size of the turrets by whatever system you decide, 
just use the Partical Coverage rule for the extra armor that doesn't cover 
the turrets.  (Simply put: if the turrets are 1/4 or more of the ships 
area then you get a reduced cost on the armor that doesn't cover the 
turrets.) 
 
The other option is make them use the breakable focus rules and make them 
OAF which makes them undefended by the armor of the ship, but because of 
the active cost of the weapons they should have good defenses anyway. 
 
> j)Sensors -- buy a bunch of Enhanced Senses? What about ranges? 
 
Sensors have ranges based on range modifiers.  If you don't buy telescopic 
on the sensors they effectively have human range modifiers and can't see 
the otherside of the moon.  So, to make them work on a starship scale you 
must add telescopic to each of the powers.  You decide based on the 
technology that you are trying to emulate how many +s to give them. 
 
 
Well, I hope this helps in some way.  If you find a good set of rules that 
don't require a math degree, I certainly would be interested in them. 
Heck I would be interested if Hero would just print the BBB updated Star 
Hero stuff. 
 
David Majors 
 
P.S. HG or GRG are either of you going to release the SH book?  Or would 
you entertain the submission of Stellar Hero?(my version of the rules) 
 
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X-SMTP: helo mail.interhop.net from jprins@interhop.net server root@mail.interhop.net ip 204.50.138.29 
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 22:15:57 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Vehicles -- the Vulnerability, *2 BODY, of Hero. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>> I just tried to design a spaceship a few days ago. Among the things the 
>> system didn't answer was: 
> 
>Hero isn't Mekton. :) 
 
Or Jovian Chronicles :-) 
 
>> a)How much crew does it need? 
> 
>Special Effect. 
 
Not exactly; you'll need at least one pilot or a Computer that can do the 
flying. 
 
>> b)How big should quarters be? 
> 
>Common sense (modified by campaign consistancy). 
 
You could always lay out the ship. 
 
>> c)What will it cost? 
> 
>Whatever you think it should be worth. 
 
It's going to vary from campaign to campaign (wildly). 
 
>> d)What happens if my FTL system isn't compatible with the 'FTL' power? 
> 
>You are the GM.  That said, Extradimensional Movement is something to look 
>at. 
 
Or great wonking Teleport for Gateships. 
 
>> e)How much internal space is taken up by engines, control panels, 
>> computers, etc, and how does this change based on the available technology? 
> 
>Special effect. 
 
I thought it was roughly half the number of hexes the vehicle occupies? IOW, 
half the volume is componants, the other half 'useful' space. 
 
>> f)How do I specify '1 months food supply'? "Life Support, No Need To Eat, 
>> One Continuing Charge (1 Month)"? 
>> g)Ditto air and water. 
> 
>I would just pack 1 month's worth of food and water on the ship, and 
>specify that the oxygen recycling system is good for that long.  Again, 
>mostly special effects. 
 
Mostly, but breathing at least should be covered by an actual life support 
system. Everything else just takes up storage space and weight. 
 
>> h)How do I buy armor for exposed components which have a lesser armor than 
>> the vehicle itself, such as turrets? 
> 
>Buy armor for them. 
 
Like this: The vehicle is 10 DEF, and you buy +6 DEF, Only for Turretes (-1) 
(or some other limitation). 
 
>> i)Why would any ship ever buy a power-consuming force field, when you can 
>> buy DEF up indefinitely without worrying about weight? 
 
Design philosophy and GM restrictions. If the GM says 15 DEF is as good as 
spaceship hulls get, hello Mr. Forcefield. In fact, who is to say that part 
of that 25 DEF isn't "Mr. Forcefield"; just Armor with Force Field SFX. 
 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!" 
-Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 19:40:53 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
This is the second in a series.  I am attempting to represent, as a  
dialogue, the major points in an dispute that has recently occured in the  
group in which I both play and GM.  I would appreciate the opinion of the  
list on each. I will be happy to receive private replies and summarize. 
 
Just to frustrate everyone, I will try to hide whether I am GM, player or 
bystander, and will try to present the arguments put forth by each side 
objectively.  I have also altered particulars so as to minimize side  
issues. 
 
Background: 
A player is attempting to design a starting character named "The Mist".   
He wants the character to have the movement abilities of  
Desolidification, but feels that the character should be able to affect,  
and be affected by, most things in the Physical World. 
 
The Dispute: 
 
GM: OK, what you want is Desolidification, affected by whatever, and buy  
your powers with the +2 Advantage, Affects Solid World.  What's the  
problem? 
 
Player: Well, I have defined the "whatever" to include almost everying  
under the sun: area-effect heat, electricity, wind, area-effect PD  
attacks, anything that might dispel a local mist or set up a draft. 
 
GM: It's your Desolid, define it as you will.  So long as you are  
affected by enough types of things, that is fine. 
 
Player: Shouldn't I be able to affect the Physical World with special  
effects that can affect me? 
 
GM: That's abusive!  By that theory, a mentalist who takes a 40-point  
Desolid needn't take +2 on his mental powers! 
 
Player: OK.  I could define Desolid, affected only by Wind and huge  
weapons that create a draft.  Would that be OK? 
 
GM: Well, I might want the liberty to throw in a few common-sense things,  
and would want to include area-effect heat that might dry up a mist. 
 
Player: No problem.  Let's consider that a valid power.  Now I want,  
Desolid, so defined, Does not work against Electricity.  Shouldn't I be  
entitled to a Limitation? 
 
GM:  <grumble>  I see where you are going.  OK, agreed that this is worth  
some limitation; however, I am not going to grant a big one!  Desolid,  
affected by all types of attacks, is still only going to be -1. 
 
Player:  If I am entitled to a Limitation on the Desolid, aren't I  
entitled to one on the Affects Solid World?  After all, the situation the  
rule was intended to limit (I can attack you but you can't attack me) is  
going to be much rarer. 
 
GM: I see no justification for doing that.  The +2 for Affecting Solid  
World is just as useful.  You are getting a Limitation on the Desolid.  I  
am not going to give you two bites at the apple. 
 
===================================================================== 
 
  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Superman (1938) 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 24 May 1998 22:44:07 -0400 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
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Trevor Barrie writes: 
 
>> Elemental Controls give a break for a tight special effect or a single 
>> special effect, not good concepts. 
 
> Yes, but I think the implicit assumption is that the two are connected. 
 
I think that is a flawed assumption.  Having a single special effect is by 
no means synonymous with a good character concept.  Like my examples, 
Iceman and Batman, both good concepts, one with a single special effect, 
one without.  One gets an EC, the other does not. 
 
> Why would one want to reward having a single SFX, unless it was felt that 
> this indicates a good concept? 
 
Having a single special effect means that if an antagonist manages to hit 
upon a weakness, it is going to cripple everything the character can do. 
By nature, an EC will have a weakness that can be discovered with a bit of 
research (several game sessions of observation, for instance) if it is not 
blatantly obvious. 
 
But then, I advocate being extremely strict with ECs in the first place. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
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Sakura  writes: 
 
> I'm presuming that means the 'move through walls' aspect, since I don't 
> know of any other movement powers imparted by Desolid... 
 
Well, if he can be affected by wind and lots of other such, the character 
is not insubstantial as far as the game mechanics are concerned. 
Desolidification should be discounted right there. 
 
Shapeshifting and/or Tunnelling are thus the powers to use (one of which I 
did mention). 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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Trevor Barrie writes: 
 
>> Which part of "Acrobatics already can affect CV" does this contradict? 
 
> The letter "V". 
 
> Acrobatics can't _directly_ affect CV. Use of the skill can set up a 
> circumstance where one (or more) of the standard combat modifiers comes 
> into play, but then, lots of Skills can do that. 
 
Since you insist on picking semantic nits, I did not "directly affect", nor 
did I say "will affect".  I said "Acrobatics already can affect CV".  And I 
did not say "no" to it, I said it makes me twitchy.  Having a CV modifier 
dependant upon another CV modifer seems like double-dipping to me, or at 
least very cheezy. 
 
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X-Envelope-Recipient: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 22:31:54 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Let me try another slant on this.  Would everyone agree that there are 3 
fairly distinct GM activities? 
	#1 Designing powers, weapons, whatever 
	#2 Assembling these parts into creatures, charactes, etc. 
	#3 Running the game. 
 
If you don't, fine.  We have a separate disagreement.  But for the sake of 
argument, grant me these premises for the rest of this message. 
 
All RPGs give you #3, and I'm not really very concerned with it.  Most RPGs 
give you some guidelines and examples on #2.  But very few (maybe only 
Hero) gives you #1.  Yeah, the other games give you a list of things.  This 
is what GURPs mostly does, especially in their magic and psionic sections.  
Anyone want to take a crack at adding spells to GURPs?  You can do it, but 
it's all just judgment call and then playtest it--same as for AD&D, 
Rolemaster, you name it. 
 
The only problem is:  These games all sell really well and are considered 
easier to play.  I say that is because so much of the effort in Hero is 
directed towards providing #1, AND you can't just build an adventure and 
run a game without #1 intruding on you constantly. 
 
Then, to me, the answer is to separate the rules, examples, etc required to 
do #1 from the rest.  This will make #3 fairly small and simple.  Sell it, 
with a few decent products to provide background for #2 (bestiary, super 
powers lists, etc.).  Get people hooked.  When they get ready to tweak, 
instead of a few paragraphs on comparing similar creatures, like AD&D does, 
Hero games has a whole design system to get them hooked on. 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 22:43:32 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Vehicles -- the Vulnerability, *2 BODY, of Hero. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Lizard wrote: 
 
> Has anyone ever noticed that the HSR Vehicle Design system *really bites*? 
> 
> I just tried to design a spaceship a few days ago. Among the things the 
> system didn't answer was: 
> a)How much crew does it need? 
 
depends on the number of personnel you buy for the ship.  I found that a good 
rule of thumb is on crew per hero point the ship costs  (This only applies to 
warships, not one man vehicles like Mecha, cars, etc)  since it is the crews 
point donations that will most likey pay for the ship 
 
> b)How big should quarters be? 
 
depends on the crew.  Most warships pack sailors in bunks three deep.  NCO and 
Officers get more space then sailors but its still no cruise ship cabin 
 
> c)What will it cost? 
 
In money, that's up to the GM.  In hero points, it depends on the powers of the 
ship has. 
 
> d)What happens if my FTL system isn't compatible with the 'FTL' power? 
 
Then try looking at interdimensional movement, or spend a lot on FTL.  36 points 
of FTL is roughly 1 lightyear/hour and another 10 points will get you a light 
year per minute.  Just how your ship achieves such inconceivably fast speeds is 
up to your imagination.  The points costs are just basic math. 
 
> e)How much internal space is taken up by engines, control panels, 
> computers, etc, and how does this change based on the available technology? 
 
This is a comic book recreation the available technology is what ever you imagine 
it to be.  Taking  the growth rate on computer capacity as an example, hardware 
size it not nearly as limiting as the amount of time it takes to write the 
software to run on the computer.  In short, in a world where AI's are common the 
omount of space the working parts take up is far less the amount of space needed 
to disply output and prompt for input from the user. 
 
> f)How do I specify '1 months food supply'? "Life Support, No Need To Eat, 
> One Continuing Charge (1 Month)"? 
> g)Ditto air and water. 
 
Looks good to me. 
 
> h)How do I buy armor for exposed components which have a lesser armor than 
> the vehicle itself, such as turrets? 
 
Partially limited power.  Buy the base armor with no disadvantage then 
additionaly armor with disadvantages on the amount of space it covers or does not 
cover. 
 
> i)Why would any ship ever buy a power-consuming force field, when you can 
> buy DEF up indefinitely without worrying about weight? And does DEF 25 at 
> "Super future tech" weigh the same as DEF 25 as "Modern day tech"? 
 
That's up to the GM.  Weight really doesn't matter with space ships anyway its 
the mass of the object not the weight. 
 
> j)Sensors -- buy a bunch of Enhanced Senses? What about ranges? 
 
Considering one kilometer is roughly a minus -14 due to range, you had better 
purchase a large amount of telescopic bonus for each sence group you purchasw 
sences from to be able to precieve things at intercontinental ranges let alone 
interplanitary. 
 
> 
> 
> Somehow, there has to be a medium between "PhD in Engineering" books like 
> "Fire, Fusion, and Steel" and the three pages in HSR which allegedly cover 
> everything from skateboards to starships. GURPS Vehicles is pretty close, a 
> bit too math-heavy but not overwhelmingly so, but it suffers from the 
> linearity of GURPS. "OK, your ship's weapons do 6d6*500, and your armor is 
> DR 200,000 -- about average for a light freighter with no military hardware." 
> 
> Ultimate Super Vehicle, Wherefore Art Thou? 
 
 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 00:35:53 -0400 
To: David Majors <asmodeus@shell.ezy.net&> Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Vehicles -- the Vulnerability, *2 BODY, of Hero. 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:08 PM 5/24/98 -0400, David Majors wrote: 
>Well, I hope this helps in some way.  If you find a good set of rules that 
>don't require a math degree, I certainly would be interested in them. 
>Heck I would be interested if Hero would just print the BBB updated Star 
>Hero stuff. 
 
Most people forget that spacecraft design IS rocket science.  Of course, 
you need heavy duty math to figure this stuff out.  :-) 
 
  Joe 
 
 
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From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 04:54:10 GMT 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sun, 24 May 1998 18:59:05 -0300 (ADT), you wrote: 
 
>On Sat, 23 May 1998, John Lansford wrote: 
> 
>> On Sat, 23 May 1998 11:33:12 -0400, you wrote: 
> 
>You should probably find a better attribution system for responses 
>to a mailing list. 
 
You're the only one griping. I don't change my entire system for one 
person. 
 
>> >Mental powers (and a few others) operate along a "line-of-sight" basis. 
>> >That is, you must be able to see your target.  But can line-of-sight 
>> >include things like video surveillance?  
> 
>Definitely yes IMO. 
 
In your campaign, then, mentalists can mind control anyone seen on 
television? Read their minds? Plant memories and have them see 
illusions from the safety of their own homes? 
 
The US' current system of government would rapidly fall apart in such 
a situation, or get mentalists deported from the country just as fast. 
 
>> No. Otherwise, a mentalist assassin could kill anyone seen on a 
>> television. 
> 
>That may be why the rules forbid Based on ECV Powers from doing BODY 
>damage. 
 
OK, so I buy the advantage "does body" for an Ego based mental power. 
I could care less if I get 1-2 d6 of damage if I know I can kill 
anyone without risk of being caught. If not that, then mind control 
then mind control the President (or his opponent) during a televised 
debate, etc, etc. 
 
>How is seeing an image in a mirror "direct", but seeing an image on a  
>TV screen not so? 
 
I was thinking of a one-way mirror, not the usual type. A mirror still 
requires the target to be fairly close and within visual range, 
though, which is why I would allow it. 
 
>I've never seen any problem with it. Could you elaborate? 
 
See above. Anyone on television, such as members of the government and 
military, would be possible targets for invisible assassins and 
criminals. Surveillance cameras in even public places would be suspect 
(someone's watching them, right?) and either everyone would become 
highly paranoid (who's watching me now?) or mentalists would be 
harassed and driven out of the country if not killed. 
 
John Lansford 
 
 
http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/ 
 
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 01:02:15 -0400 
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Subject: ENOUGH (was: Re: Good/bad cops) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
This thread has no bearing on the gaming, and has long since devolved into name  
calling and character slander.  If the participants of this topic wish to continue it please  
do so in a manner that does not reach those people who are actually interested in  
discussing Champions and the Hero System. 
 
Thank you. 
 
 
 
 
      John Desmarais <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
================================================= 
Gotta question about the Champions Mailing list? Just ask. 
Or, you can go look over at www.sysabend.org/champions.   
Yeah, yeah, I know, it's ugly.  I'll make the site prettier when  
I have time. 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 00:08:02 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Police Portrayal in Campaigns/ Good and Bad cops 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> This is a cop-out (err, no pun intended). Anything which exists in the 
> real world can be important to a modern campaign, but that doesn't mean 
> that any conversation imaginable is appropriate for this list. 
 
	Fair enough.  And to be even fairer, I brought this on list with a 
simple quip that satirically reflected my view of the "war on drugs." 
 
	Anyone that wants to discuss that issue, or the ones of the 
perceptions of police in general, which came up as I defended myself from 
attack, are welcome to take me to private e-mail. 
 
> If you want to talk about how you prefer to portray law enforcement in 
> your campaign, how to GM corrupt officials, etc, that's on topic. Discussing 
> the extent to which corruption exists in the real world simply is not. 
 
	Well, it's relavent to the extent that one is trying to portray 
"reality". 
 
	But I'll rise to your challenge. 
 
	How does everyone here portray the police in your campigns, be 
they modern realistic, futuristic, old west, or whatever? 
 
	Personally, in my modern campaigns, I end up portraying many of 
them as having a bit of an ego thing going when it comes to their power. 
They'll be a little gruff with heroes, seeing them as taking away a bit of 
the action from them and making things more difficult in general. 
 
	Not all police are like this in my games, however.  There are a 
few more major NPCs that have become integral to my characters for getting 
information and finding out how things are going.  I think I'm doing a 
decent job of portraying a range of attitudes and personalities, which I 
find more "realistic."  Does anyone else try to go with this, or do you 
push for more one way or another? 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 00:41:51 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Police Portrayal in Campaigns/ Good and Bad cops 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 25 May 1998, Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
> 	How does everyone here portray the police in your campigns, be 
> they modern realistic, futuristic, old west, or whatever? 
>  
> 	Personally, in my modern campaigns, I end up portraying many of 
> them as having a bit of an ego thing going when it comes to their power. 
> They'll be a little gruff with heroes, seeing them as taking away a bit of 
> the action from them and making things more difficult in general. 
 
Let's see...in my recent (or upcoming) campaigns... 
 
In one upcoming (a fantasy/mecha hybrid), the players are nobility and 
therefore the closest thing to a legal system in that country - they have 
the high & low justice. No 'cops' per se, although their men-at-arms are a 
general peacekeeping force.  If they recruit locals for the men-at-arms 
the cops are likely to be very pleasant and understanding - these are 
their friends and neighbors, after all - while mercenaries recrited from 
outside the feif would tend to be less so. 
 
In the last HERO game I ran (way too long ago - a sort of anime-tech 
conspiracy/time-travel thing) the police didn't figure into it much - when 
they did, they were generally normal people, except for the detective who 
was possessed by a sort of symbiotic monster/demon that was brought back 
by time-travelling mages from the future...kind of a long story.  
 
In a superhero game (been ages since I ran one of those) I generally leave 
them in the background, keeping them 'professionally distant' unless 
there's a reason for them to interact with the PCs on a regular basis, in 
which case they get a personality development based on the needs of the 
campaign. 
 
In cyberpunk games - well, I'm not going to apologize for making 90% of 
the cops corrupt in cyberpunk games.  It's part of the genre.  Even there, 
though, they're not all petty little dictators.  A lot of them are just  
average guys who are on the take because they don't really get enough 
money for their families or whatever. 
  
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 00:42:44 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: The Incredible Shrinking Hero 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> Being inside of solid matter can't be achieved by being small.  Unless you 
> believe the propaganda of the liberal media about electrons, neutrons, 
> protons, and the whole atom theory mess. 
 
	Eh?  Explain yourself. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 02:18:13 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> > >Mental powers (and a few others) operate along a "line-of-sight" basis. 
>  > >That is, you must be able to see your target.  But can line-of-sight 
>  > >include things like video surveillance?  
>   
>  Definitely yes IMO. 
 
I would say no here, simply because you are not seeing your target on a 
televison screen, you are seeing an electronic reproduction of the target, a 
series of still pictures, really.   And that image on the screen is going to 
be exactly the same whether it's live or on tape (disregarding loss of 
generation). 
 
Now, saying that, there are definitely ways to work it so that a character 
*could* do this (remember, anything's possible in Hero), but it would require 
some Advantages or Linked Powers, to establish a workable LoS.   
>   
>  How is seeing an image in a mirror "direct", but seeing an image on a  
>  TV screen not so? 
 
Because the image in the mirror is just a redirection of the rays of light 
that are enabling the person to see the target.  Realists may say that the 
inversion of the image wouldn't make it a true LoS, though.  
 
In a television, your LoS goes from the attacker's eyes to the tv screen, not 
the target... that's the difference.  It's the exact same thing as looking at 
a snapshot of your intended target.  And I wouldn't imagine there are too many 
GMs out there that would allow someone to target an opponent by staring at a 
Polaroid (tm) of them... not withoug some major Advs or Linked Powers, anyway. 
 
'Lynx 
   
 
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Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 23:39:18 -0700 
To: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Armor Piercing Variant... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
A simple variant to make Armor Piercing more variable, primarily for use in 
making Heroic-scale weapons and armor better diffrentiated: 
 
Rather than the standard +1/2=divide defenses/2, I have been thinking of 
the following: 
 
Limited Armor Piercing:+1/4 advantage to divide defenses by 1.5. 
Armor Piercing:+1/2 advantage to divide defenses by 2. 
Advanced Armor Piercing:+1 advantage to divide defenses by 4. 
 
A single level of Hardened still works as normal. 
 
Feedback? 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 02:12:30 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
uh... guys? 
 
Rat KNOWS he's wrong.  He's just too much of an asshole to admit it.  He 
gets a kick out of arguing a stupid point into the ground. (check past 
history for proof) 
 
Stop replying to him.  It's a waste of time. 
 
Todd 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 02:18:18 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogues #1 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Robert A. West wrote: 
>  
> There are a few disputes current in the group in which I both play and 
> GM.  I would appreciate the opinion of the list on each.  I will be 
> happy to receive private replies and summarize. 
 
I'm afraid I would have to agree with the GM.  If the limitation has 
been defined as only worth -1/2 in his campaign (due to frequency of 
fire attacks), then that is what the limitation is worth FOR EVERYONE. 
 
He's already getting the freebie bonus that villians with fire based 
attacks won't generally attack him - and now he wants extra points for 
it besides? 
 
I dont think so. 
 
 
Todd 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 02:39:22 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Police Portrayal in Campaigns/ Good and Bad cops 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
>         How does everyone here portray the police in your campigns, be 
> they modern realistic, futuristic, old west, or whatever? 
 
 
>From experience playing in many campaigns (and under many GMs, including 
several who are published Hero authors), I have never played in a game 
where more than a small handful of cops were corrupt. (ie, 99% of cops 
were considered to be 'good guys', but there were a small number of 
dirty cops).  It might be an interesting campaign to play in...  but 
probably only short term.  I have a feeling it would tend to get old 
after a while. 
 
As far as attitude, I have seen it handled both ways. Either the cops 
were resentful of the supers, and thought the supers were glory hounds 
(which we were of course) who just got in the way (often true). Or, the 
cops were grateful for the help of the heroes and generally will help in 
any way (legally) possible.  Although it was more of a pain in the ass 
to get things done, it was usually more fun if the cops didn't like 
us... 
 
 
That's just standard police force however.  When it comes to other 
government agencies like PRIMUS or even the FBI and CIA... THOSE groups 
are almost always portrayed as 'dirty' through out.  
 
 
In my own campaign however, the police, PRIMUS, and any other gov't 
agencies the PCs dealt with were ALWAYS squeaky clean, and always more 
than willing to help out with whatever the PCs needed.  Of course, this 
made the PCs paranoid as hell... (with good reason, they ARE being set 
up  ;) 
 
 
Has anyone noticed that the more an NPC (or NPC group) cooperates and 
works willingly with the PCs... the more suspicious the PCs are that 
they NPC (or NPC group) is dirty? 
 
 
Todd 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 02:11:21 -0600 
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Police Portrayal in Campaigns 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
 
>         How does everyone here portray the police in your campigns, be 
> they modern realistic, futuristic, old west, or whatever? 
> 
>                                 -Tim Gilberg 
>  
In the champs campaign I run there are wide range of personality, 
although I tend on the non corrupt side. One PC runs what used to be 
PRIMUS (now that the Golden Avenger has joined Genocide) and she has 
problems with the local police feeling the 'Gmen come in & take over' 
problem. She's working on that though. 
 
I also play a supersuit who used to be police officers. He does things 
like check in with dispatch, and when on a scene where the police are 
laready there, talks to whoever is in charge first. After a situtation 
he was involved in,  he writes reports for the police files. The first 
time he turned one in, the officer on duty that accepted it almost had a 
heart attack. Needless to say, he has a good relationship with the 
police. 
 
In another campaign I play in, the police are very sympathetic. The team 
has a very good relationship with the chief and a couple of detectives, 
and they share information. I have yet to see a corrupt cop. Usually the 
police here don't mind the supers showing up as we only do so when they 
police are in over thier heads. 
 
- Mhoram 
 
--  
 
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages, 
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and 
goes through their pockets.    -- Eddy Peters 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> "Lizard" <lizard@dnai.com> 
Date: Mon, 25 May 98 10:43:14  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Armor Piercing Variant... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sun, 24 May 1998 23:39:18 -0700, Lizard wrote: 
 
>A simple variant to make Armor Piercing more variable, primarily for use in 
>making Heroic-scale weapons and armor better diffrentiated: 
> 
>Rather than the standard +1/2=divide defenses/2, I have been thinking of 
>the following: 
> 
>Limited Armor Piercing:+1/4 advantage to divide defenses by 1.5. 
>Armor Piercing:+1/2 advantage to divide defenses by 2. 
>Advanced Armor Piercing:+1 advantage to divide defenses by 4. 
> 
>A single level of Hardened still works as normal. 
 
I prefer the system in Adventurers Club where AP reduces the DEF by the 
DC of the attack. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Mad Hamish" <h_laws@postoffice.utas.edu.au> 
Date: Mon, 25 May 98 10:44:53  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Based on Con for Entangle 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 25 May 1998 10:24:56 +1000, Mad Hamish wrote: 
 
>At 03:28 PM 5/24/98, qts wrote: 
>> 
>>Hmm... In typing the above I accidentally mistyped 'Con' as 'Com'. I 
>>wonder what the SFX of a Com based/defended Entangle would be? 
>>qts 
>> 
> 
>A crisis of self image? 
>self loathing? 
 
Hmm. That has possibilities. It could only affect Superheroes with 
Public ID though :} 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 10:53:04 +0000 
From: Til Eulenspiegel <til_e@aloha.net> 
Reply-To: til_e@aloha.net 
Organization: ??? 
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.marketplace 
To: srvr_srfr@earthlink.net, tsllama@earthlink.net, champ-l@sysabend.org, 
        til_e@aloha.net 
Subject: Hero System Books for Sale 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
Hash: SHA1 
 
25 May 1998 
 
Hi! 
 
For Sale by Owner 
 
Adventurers' Club Set 
	#23, #27				(GD)	$9 
Alien Enemies				(GD)	$6 
Champions Presents #2	(VG)	$12 
Champions Universe		(VG)	$12 
Classic Organizations	(VG)	$12 
Hero System Almanac 1	(VG)	$10 
Hero System Almanac 2	(EXC)	$12 
Hudson City Blues			(MNT)	$12 
Mind Games					(AVG)	$6 
The Mutant File			(AVG)	$6 
VIPER						(AVG)	$10 
 
Notes: 
 
Mint (MNT).		Like new 
Excellent (EXC).	Slight shelf wear 
Very Good (VG).	Some shelf wear 
Good (GD).			Worn, but complete 
Average (AVG).	Seen better days, but usable. 
 
1	I reserve the right to pull any item any time. 
2	All prices are negotiable as follows: 
		a)	If you dislike prices--make me an offer. 
		b)	I will accept or make one counter-offer. 
3	Sale ends Monday 01 June 1998. 
4	Payment by: 
		a) money order (preferred), or 
		b) cash (your risk). 
5	 Shipping is: 
		a) based on estimated cost, 
		b) buyer's responsibility, 
		c) Via US Postal Service, and 
		d) items ship 1-2 days after I receive payment. 
6	Reply by email only. Put "SALE--HSR" as subject. 
 
Thanks! 
 
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Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 
Charset: noconv 
 
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YjxW8vtu2cGqI38UQliVEzZJ 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Joe Mucchiello" <why@superlink.net> 
Date: Mon, 25 May 98 10:59:18  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sun, 24 May 1998 13:32:10 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
 
>At 06:14 PM 5/24/98, qts wrote: 
>>On Sun, 24 May 1998 12:38:10 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>>>Bullseye!  I was recently introduced to GURPS and I love the Magic system 
>>>in it.  Why?  Because it contains references to itself.  Wouldn't it be 
>>>cool if the FH spells had limitations like (-1/4) must already know Spell 
>>>X?  I've been toying with doing this for my own game.  Does anyone use the 
>>>current spell colleges? 
>> 
>>More or less. Instead of 'Must have X points in College', I use an 
>>Expertise system 'Must have X points in KS: Particular College'. I also 
>>use VPPs as players like to be able to change spells, and it better 
>>models wizards of literature. 
> 
>You see but that's a no.   
 
Come again? 
 
>I want to use VPPs but it looks far more 
>expensive than the normal system.  While most spells have low real costs, 
>the active costs are pretty high sometimes.  Do you vary X by spell? 
 
Actually, they're not. A beginning Hero will spend 35-40 pts on the VPP 
+ control cost, and another 10+ on associated skills. This is pretty 
much the same as the FH sourcebook. 30 AP is just about good enough to 
be useful. The major advantage is from the GMs perspective: it keeps 
the power level down, and it allows for easy creation of NPC wizards - 
just up the VPP. 
 
 
>>If you're interested, I'll email it to you. 
> 
>I'd be interested in what limitations you put on the VPP control cost. 
 
Lots. I'll dig out the details. In the meantime, here's a clip from an 
earlier missive 
 
 
[Begin] 
 
>3) I have a problem with an archmage capable of destroying a castle with a 
>single spell, still fumbling a simple light spell.  What I am looking at is 
>allowing characters to buy off the skill roll limitation with earned 
>experience. 
 
No problem - in fact that sounds like a very good idea. A VPP-based 
mage must use regular spells, but 
if the mage has mastery of the college of magic (skill 20-), then he 
can use the VPP as a raw VPP for that college only. 
 
Example: Arkhan is a Vancian (D&D) style archmage with a 100 pt VPP. 
The VPP is normally built like this: 
 
Base Control Cost 100/2=50 
 
Advantages to Control Cost: No Roll to Change (+1), No Time to Change 
(+1) 
Active Control Cost: 150 
 
Limitations on Main Control Cost: One Charge (-2), Charge Costs END 
(-1/2), Concentration 1/2 DCV, (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations 
(-1/4), Side Effects (-1/2), IAF various (-1/2), RSR (-1/2), Lim: Only 
spells in Spell Book (-1/2)  Total -5 1/2 
 
Limitations on 'No Roll, No Time' Advantages: One Charge (-2), Charge 
Costs END (-1/2), Concentration 1/2 DCV, (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), 
Incantations (-1/4), Side Effects (-1/2), IAF various (-1/2), RSR 
(-1/2), Lim: Only if KS Spell College is 20- (-2). Total -7 
 
Real Control Cost: (50/6.5) + (100/8) = (7 + 12) = 19 
 
He also has Magic Skill 22-, KS: Water Magic 20-, and KS Fire Magic 16- 
 
So, when he wants to cast a Fireblast, he has to have memorised the 
spell beforehand (and have made the roll to memorise it and make the 
roll to cast it), but he can make up any Water Magic spell on the spot. 
He still needs to make his casting roll, though. 
 
[End] 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: "Len Carpenter" <redlion@early.com> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Armor Piercing Variant... 
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 08:11:06 -0400 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Monday, May 25th, Lizard wrote: 
 
>  
> A simple variant to make Armor Piercing more variable, primarily for use 
in 
> making Heroic-scale weapons and armor better diffrentiated: 
>  
> Rather than the standard +1/2=divide defenses/2, I have been thinking of 
> the following: 
>  
> Limited Armor Piercing:+1/4 advantage to divide defenses by 1.5. 
> Armor Piercing:+1/2 advantage to divide defenses by 2. 
> Advanced Armor Piercing:+1 advantage to divide defenses by 4. 
>  
> A single level of Hardened still works as normal. 
>  
> Feedback? 
 
For some time, I've considered a restricted +1/4 AP advantage that reduces 
defense by 25% to better differentiate the tech levels of various AP 
attacks.  As a broad generality, modern AP military munitions are +1/2 
advantage attacks--HEAT and SABOT and depleted uranium rounds and 
such--while basic WWII vintage anti-tank rounds are only worth a +1/4 
advantage.  A Panzerfaust or Panzerschreck or other such hollow-charge 
projectile would still be worth a +1/2 advantage.  Conventional .30 or .50 
caliber machinegun ammo would rate a +1/4 AP advantage, while more 
advanced ammo that takes advantage of modern materials technology would 
rate the +1/2 advantage. 
 
Moving on to a +1 AP advantage as you suggest, perhaps for future-tech 
weapons, needs further elaboration when it comes to defeating Hardened 
defenses.  Will a +1 AP and a +1/4 AP piled together be enough to overcome 
one level of Hardened built into hi-tech armor, or does it take a combined 
+1 AP and +1/2 AP (my suggested minimum), or does it take two levels of 
Advanced AP for a combined +2 advantage to defeat one level of Hardened?  
How much AP does it take to defeat two levels of Hardened? 
 
When it comes to designing attacks that can cut through armor like it's 
not even there, my druthers are to either use NND attacks that do BODY, or 
to resurrect the old Piercing Points rule from the Champions III 
supplement.  
 
Len Carpenter 
redlion@early.com 
   
 
    
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 06:43:00 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Good/bad cops 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 09:44 PM 5/24/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
>Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
>Subject: Re: Good/bad cops 
> 
>> things to their fellow man. I've made sacrifices that most people cannot 
>> appreciate. To have my profession generalized, slandered, stereotyped 
and bad 
>> mouthed by a group of people because of some isolated incidents they may 
have 
>> experienced (or heard about) is offensive to me. It discredits the hard 
work 
>> that I and most of my brothers and sisters in law enforcement have done as 
>> good cops. 
> 
> Oh get off your high horse!  Because you work in the field, I 
>can't mention that I've had a mjority of bad experiences with cops, that's 
>BS, plain and simple. 
 
   Uh, Tim: there's a big difference between, "I've had a majority of bad 
experiences with cops," and calling them "the American Gestapo." 
   A honking *BIG* difference. 
   Like someone else whom I know personally saying, "I've had a majority of 
bad experiences with blacks" (which he did), and calling them "morally 
inferior" (which he never would). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 25 May 1998 09:54:48 -0400 
Lines: 28 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
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Rick Holding writes: 
 
>> Which part of "Acrobatics already can affect CV" does this contradict? 
 
> [...] 
> However, I believe from the context of your orignal post that you may not 
> have been saying always, either. 
 
Thank you.  At least someone bothered to read what I wrote before jumping 
down my throat over it. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Armor Piercing Variant... 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 25 May 1998 09:59:13 -0400 
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Lizard  writes: 
 
> A simple variant to make Armor Piercing more variable, primarily for use 
> in making Heroic-scale weapons and armor better diffrentiated: 
 
I like the version that showed up in "GM's Discretion".  Instead of halving 
the target's defense, it reduces the target's defenses by the number of DCs 
in the base attack.  So, an 8D6 EB w/ this variant of Armor Piercing would 
reduce any target's defenses by 8 before damage is applied. 
 
[...] 
> Limited Armor Piercing:+1/4 advantage to divide defenses by 1.5. 
> Armor Piercing:+1/2 advantage to divide defenses by 2. 
> Advanced Armor Piercing:+1 advantage to divide defenses by 4. 
 
Hmmm... my gut reaction is to make the +1 level a div by 3 instead of div 
by 4.  Other than that, I think it is workable. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Vehicles -- the Vulnerability, *2 BODY, of Hero. 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Date: 25 May 1998 10:02:52 -0400 
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Joe Mucchiello writes: 
 
> Most people forget that spacecraft design IS rocket science.  Of course, 
> you need heavy duty math to figure this stuff out.  :-) 
 
As an interesting aside, right now nobody in the world knows how to build a 
Saturn V rocket.  The design notes were accidentally destroyed, and 
everyone on the design team is dead, now. 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 22:05:55 +0800 
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au> 
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au 
Organization: Only One Inc. 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogues #1 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> Dispute #1: The facts. 
>  
> A GM has decided that ED/rED "Only vs Fire or Heat-based attacks" is a 
> valid -1/2 Limitation in his campaign, based on frequency.  Ignis, a 
> fire-based character with EC: Command of Fire, wants to buy a large 
> amount of ED/rED with that Limitation and place it in the EC.  The GM  
> has ruled that defenses limited to the element of an EC belong in the  
> EC. Ignis also has the Distinctive Feature that he is always aflame in  
> Hero ID, and has an Always-On Damage Shield. 
 
All seems reasonable. Indeed, there is canon support for "Only vs 
Fire/Heat" being a -1/2 limitation. 
 
> The Dispute: 
>  
> Player: I think that Ignis is entitled to a much larger Limitation,  
> since Fire is less likely to be used against him, seeing that he  
> obviously flames. 
 
(And other stuff snipped). 
 
I'm with the GM on this one. The werewolf example is misapplied. 
Werewolves being vulnerable to silver serves to make the defense 
inoperative; the PC being INvulnerable to fire only serves to 
make the power cheaper. 
 
It is opening a huge can of worms to apply limitations in this 
way. In essence, the player is claiming that characters that 
are "obviously immune" to a certain attack ought to be able to 
buy that immunity very cheaply. That is opening the doors to 
abuse. As the GM points out, the PC is already getting a 
Distinctive Feature disadvantage for this. 
 
I'm leery of allowing this even in the werewolf case, BTW - 
IMHO, taking a Vulnerability is a better way to simulate it. 
And silver isn't that UNcommon, either. 
--  
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza) 
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment." 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 08:16:38 -0600 
From: A Kirkland <ajk117@mail.usask.ca> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
X-Sender: ajk117@mail.usask.ca 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 20:06 98/05/24 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>Robert A West writes: 
> 
>> Background: 
>> A player is attempting to design a starting character named "The Mist".   
>> He wants the character to have the movement abilities of  
>> Desolidification, but feels that the character should be able to affect,  
>> and be affected by, most things in the Physical World. 
> 
>The short version is, you can't have your cake and eat it, too. :) 
> 
>[...] 
> 
>> Player: Well, I have defined the "whatever" to include almost everying  
>> under the sun: area-effect heat, electricity, wind, area-effect PD  
>> attacks, anything that might dispel a local mist or set up a draft. 
> 
>This is the point where I have to ask, is Desolidification really a useful 
>power at this point?  I would start looking at other ways to simulate the 
>"less dense" form of mist rather than insubstantiality. 
> 
>First, Damage Reduction is a power that I like to use for this.  Varying 
>degress of Damage Reduction can be used to simulate the effect of being 
>less dense -- thus less affected by "physical" things -- without stepping 
>all the way into insubstantiality. 
> 
>Second, Shapeshift to any form, linked to the Damage Reduction. 
> 
>Some small amount of Flight is probably useful to have as well.  Knockback 
>Resistance might also be useful. 
> 
>That should do you as a pretty good start, I think.  A bit more expensive 
>than Damage Reduction, but you do not have to pay for Affects Desolid on 
>everything. 
> 
 
Or you could use Shrinking with a Density Decrease SFX. With this, it is 
more difficlut for  
	normal attacks to affect you, you become translucent, and can pass through 
barriers that  
	would block a normal person. You do not actually change height, so you're 
reach is the same, 
	but you cannot use cover as well. 
 
A while back I was in a game with rotating GM's, including some who had not 
run Hero before. 
	We banned everything with a magnifying glass or a Stop sign. Another 
player built a 
	Vision style character using ths construct in a multipower with DI. 
 
A Kirkland 
ajk117@mail.usask.ca 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 22:18:08 +0800 
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au> 
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au 
Organization: Only One Inc. 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
I've tried to stay out of this. I just got sucked in. :-) 
 
(talking about hanging from an overhang with the fingertips) 
 
> We already have a Climbing skill, which does exactly that.  That is  
> *NOT* superhuman.  While only a few world-class climbers can handle  
> it, they *DO* it, with nothing more than their bare fingertips. 
 
A Power does not imply a superhuman ability. Even the BBB uses 
HKA and Armour to reflect the claws and higher resistance of 
animals; and technically Running and Swimming are both Powers. 
 
In Hero terms, I'd suspect that these world-class climbers could 
certainly be represented with limited Clinging. Indeed, that's 
the sort of person that's being simulated with this construct - 
not a Spiderman type, but just a damn good climber. 
 
To be absolutely fair, I doubt that there are very many people 
that are (eg) Light Sleepers, Ambidextrous, Lightning Calculators, 
or any other talent. And I'd be interested to hear if there is a 
single example of any recorded "real" Universal Translator. 
 
All the "Powers as SuperSkills" introduced in the Ultimate series 
are directed basically towards creating new Talents. I honestly 
don't see what's so wrong with this. Taking a Power and applying 
limitations to chop off the bits you don't want is a time-honoured 
mechanism - it's how you get everything from flame shields 
(DEF with "only vs fire/heat" -1/2) through to mimicry (Variable 
Power Pool with all the usual "only to mimic target's powers"). 
It's established. This is one of the things limitations are for. 
 
And despite Rat's continued insistence that "the skill is enough" - 
that interpretation involves GM fiat. Sure, the GM can rule that 
exceptional skill use can produce this effect. That's perfectly 
OK. OTOH, limited Clinging-As-Climbing (should be) legal in ANY 
campaign - not only those that don't allow "exceptional skill 
use" (which, BTW, I would think are MOST superhero campaigns - 
does anyone allow "Sheer Folly" Persuasion to accomplish 
Mind Control-like effects?), but even those that limit the 
maximum skill roll to (say) 16- or so. Which, again, may well 
include the majority. 
 
The bottom line is - is this construct abusive? I find it hard 
to see how the answer "yes" can be defended objectively. The 
secondary question is - is this construct illegal? Again, it's 
hard to see how the answer is "yes". The final question is 
"do I disapprove of this power construct?" Well... here, there is 
more room for debate, I suppose, but given the answer to questions 
one and two, I don't see the problem. 
 
But YMMV. 
--  
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza) 
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment." 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 22:24:59 +0800 
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au> 
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au 
Organization: Only One Inc. 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> A player is attempting to design a starting character named "The  
> Mist". He wants the character to have the movement abilities of 
> Desolidification, but feels that the character should be able to  
> affect, and be affected by, most things in the Physical World. 
 
(snip!) 
 
This seems a no-brainer to me. I'd simply tell the player to 
take Desolidification, "only to walk through solid objects" (-1). 
No Affects Physical World required; I figure if you are basically 
throwing away the defensive aspects of Desolid, then you aren't 
really being abusive by not needing Affects Physical World. 
 
Have to watch this general principle, though. A mentalist that 
can go Desolid but still be affected by Mental attacks should 
have to buy Affects Physical World on his Mind Control (IMHO), 
since he IS still benefitting from the defensive aspects of 
Desolidification. 
--  
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza) 
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment." 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 25 May 1998 10:25:00 -0400 
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A Kirkland writes: 
 
> Or you could use Shrinking with a Density Decrease SFX. 
> [...] 
> You do not actually change height, so you're reach is the same, but you 
> cannot use cover as well. 
 
Except that with Shrinking your height *DOES* change.  That is what the 
power does; everything else is secondary to that. 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 07:29:08 -0700 
To: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Armor Piercing Variant... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:39 PM 5/24/1998 -0700, Lizard wrote: 
>A simple variant to make Armor Piercing more variable, primarily for use in 
>making Heroic-scale weapons and armor better diffrentiated: 
> 
>Rather than the standard +1/2=divide defenses/2, I have been thinking of 
>the following: 
> 
>Limited Armor Piercing:+1/4 advantage to divide defenses by 1.5. 
>Armor Piercing:+1/2 advantage to divide defenses by 2. 
>Advanced Armor Piercing:+1 advantage to divide defenses by 4. 
> 
>A single level of Hardened still works as normal. 
 
   I don't know if your history with the Hero System goes back this far, 
but in the 3rd and earlier editions, Armor Piercing could be "stacked" so 
that if you bought Armor Piercing more than once it doubled it further. 
   I'm not quite sure why they did away with this; I can only assume it's 
because they felt that this was too powerful. 
   I've suggested a new way of doing AP, and mentioned it on the list a few 
months ago.  Basically, to reduce defenses by more than half, you buy 
further levels of Armor Piercing at a cumulative +1/4 addition to the 
Advantage.  If the target's defenses are Hardened, then each level reduces 
one level of AP, the larger applications first.  This gives a somewhat 
wider variance in what can be done with it, though one quickly reaches a 
point of diminishing returns (the size of an Energy Blast with this 
Advantage which will yield a Power of about 60 Active Points, assuming no 
other Advantages, is given to illustrate this) 
 
   +1/2 AP: Halves defenses, unless Hardened. 
   +1/2 AP, +1/2 AP (+1 -- 6d6): Halves defenses, unless Hardened at least 
twice. 
   +1/2 AP, +3/4 AP (+1 1/4 -- 5d6): Quarters defenses if not Hardened, 
halves defenses that are Hardened once. 
   +1/2 AP, +1/2 AP, +1/2 AP (+1 1/2 -- 4 1/2d6): Halves defenses, unless 
Hardened at least three times. 
   +1/2 AP, +1/2 AP, +3/4 AP (+1 3/4 -- 4d6): Quarters defenses if not 
Hardened, halves defenses that are hardened less than three times. 
   +1/2 AP, +3/4 AP, +3/4 AP (+2 -- 4d6):  Quarters defenses if not 
Hardened at least twice, halves defenses that are Hardened twice. 
   +1/2 AP, +3/4 AP, +1 AP (+2 1/4 -- 3 1/2d6): Cuts to 1/8 defenses that 
are not Hardened, quarters defenses Hardened once, halves defenses Hardened 
twice. 
 
   So sure, you can have a weapon that cuts Ogre's ED to 5.  But you'll 
only do 4d6 damage, with an average roll of 14, which will let 9 STUN 
through.  In the meantime, your buddy with a full 12d6 attack is getting an 
average roll of 42 against Ogre's full ED of 20, letting 20 STUN through. 
   Now that I think about it like this (and I really hadn't before now), 
the main benefit of having Armor Piercing on an attack isn't to do damage 
against targets with high defenses.  The real benefit is having an attack 
that won't turn agents and normals into ground beef (since the base damage 
is reduced) while still being able to do *something* against targets with 
high defenses. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Joe Mucchiello" <why@superlink.net> 
Date: Mon, 25 May 98 14:39:20  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sun, 24 May 1998 13:32:10 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
 
>At 06:14 PM 5/24/98, qts wrote: 
>>On Sun, 24 May 1998 12:38:10 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>>>Bullseye!  I was recently introduced to GURPS and I love the Magic system 
>>>in it.  Why?  Because it contains references to itself.  Wouldn't it be 
>>>cool if the FH spells had limitations like (-1/4) must already know Spell 
>>>X?  I've been toying with doing this for my own game.  Does anyone use the 
>>>current spell colleges? 
>> 
>>More or less. Instead of 'Must have X points in College', I use an 
>>Expertise system 'Must have X points in KS: Particular College'. I also 
>>use VPPs as players like to be able to change spells, and it better 
>>models wizards of literature. 
> 
>You see but that's a no.  I want to use VPPs but it looks far more 
>expensive than the normal system.  While most spells have low real costs, 
>the active costs are pretty high sometimes.  Do you vary X by spell? 
 
 
Forgot the last bit in my last post. Yes, the X does vary.  
 
My Expertise system 
 
Skill        Limitation 
11-           -1/4 
14-           -1/2 
16-           -3/4 
18-           -1 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 07:45:08 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:00 PM 5/24/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>> You originally argued that Clinging RSR:  Climbing with a couple of other 
>> limitations duplicated Climbing alone and therefore was an invalid 
>> construct. 
> 
>The claim that it is an invalid construct because the whole point of it is 
>to duplicate Climbing. 
> 
>> Now you argue that Clinging RSR: Climbing with a couple of other 
>> limitations makes someone much more than simply the greatest climber in 
>> the world. 
> 
>Yep.  Climbing does not allow one to stick to a wall; Clinging does. 
>Rather, with Climbing, your natural Strength is used to hang on; with 
>Clinging, the Clinging Strength is used.  Unless you remove that, too, in 
>which case you no longer have the primary use of Clinging (first sentence 
>rule). 
> 
>No contradiction. 
 
   Now let's go back to the construct in question: 
   Clinging, Sideways Move at 1/2 Ground Rate (-1/4), No Neiling or Angles 
Less than 80 Degrees (-1/4), Cannot Be Used to Resist Knockback (-1/4), 
Requires a Climbing Roll (-1/2).  (Real Cost: 4 points.) 
   So does this construct exactly duplicate the Climbing Skill (which costs 
an additional 3 points anyway), or doesn't it?  [ANSWER YES OR NO.  Explain 
if you want to, but you will need to use "Yes" or "No" as the *first* word 
in your answer.] 
   Can a character with this construct move more than 1" per Phase, which 
cannot be done with just Climbing Skill?  If not, why not? 
   Can a character with this construct scale sheer surfaces, such as 
vertical metal or glass, which cannot be done with just Climbing Skill?  If 
not, why not? 
--- 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
Date: Mon, 25 May 98 14:48:01  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sun, 24 May 1998 22:31:54 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
 
>Let me try another slant on this.  Would everyone agree that there are 3 
>fairly distinct GM activities? 
>	#1 Designing powers, weapons, whatever 
>	#2 Assembling these parts into creatures, charactes, etc. 
>	#3 Running the game. 
> 
 
<snip> 
 
 
>The only problem is:  These games all sell really well and are considered 
>easier to play.  I say that is because so much of the effort in Hero is 
>directed towards providing #1, AND you can't just build an adventure and 
>run a game without #1 intruding on you constantly. 
 
Really? I don't find that at all. The players announce what they want 
to do, then the GM  acts accordingly. Sure, if I need to go to the nth 
degree I can, but if I just want (for example) a monster to throw at 
the players, I'll just slap down a brief description, BODY, CV, Stun, 
and Damage. Other stats as appropriate. If necessary, I'll improvise 
during play, and keep a note. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 07:51:42 -0700 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:31 PM 5/24/1998 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
>Let me try another slant on this.  Would everyone agree that there are 3 
>fairly distinct GM activities? 
> #1 Designing powers, weapons, whatever 
> #2 Assembling these parts into creatures, charactes, etc. 
> #3 Running the game. 
> 
>If you don't, fine.  We have a separate disagreement.  But for the sake of 
>argument, grant me these premises for the rest of this message. 
 
   Well, there's always plotting the adventure....   :-] 
   (BTW I do go along with everything you say.  It's partly for that reason 
that I'm including a fairly extensive listing of weapons and other pre-fab 
equipment in The Ultimate Super Vehicle.) 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 08:10:39 -0700 
To: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 07:40 PM 5/24/1998 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
>This is the second in a series.  I am attempting to represent, as a  
>dialogue, the major points in an dispute that has recently occured in the  
>group in which I both play and GM.  I would appreciate the opinion of the  
>list on each. I will be happy to receive private replies and summarize. 
> 
>Just to frustrate everyone, I will try to hide whether I am GM, player or 
>bystander, and will try to present the arguments put forth by each side 
>objectively.  I have also altered particulars so as to minimize side  
>issues. 
> 
>Background: 
>A player is attempting to design a starting character named "The Mist".   
>He wants the character to have the movement abilities of  
>Desolidification, but feels that the character should be able to affect,  
>and be affected by, most things in the Physical World. 
 
   Despite Rat's attempt to force a handful of square Powers into a round 
Special Effect, this much is reasonable. 
 
>Player: OK.  I could define Desolid, affected only by Wind and huge  
>weapons that create a draft.  Would that be OK? 
 
   "Huge weapons that create a draft"?  It's a side issue, to be sure, but 
I think I'd only apply half damage for such weapons. 
 
>Player:  If I am entitled to a Limitation on the Desolid, aren't I  
>entitled to one on the Affects Solid World?  After all, the situation the  
>rule was intended to limit (I can attack you but you can't attack me) is  
>going to be much rarer. 
> 
>GM: I see no justification for doing that.  The +2 for Affecting Solid  
>World is just as useful.  You are getting a Limitation on the Desolid.  I  
>am not going to give you two bites at the apple. 
 
   I'm not sure what Limitation that the Player wants for the Affects Solid 
World Advantage.  "Not vs Electricity"?  If so, I wouldn't allow this 
Limitation simply because he would rarely, if ever, find a target 
consisting of electricity.  (The only possibility I can think of is 
Plasmoid or some creature like him, and even that is stretching it a 
little.) 
--- 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 08:27:52 -0700 
To: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogues #1 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:31 AM 5/24/1998 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
>There are a few disputes current in the group in which I both play and  
>GM.  I would appreciate the opinion of the list on each.  I will be  
>happy to receive private replies and summarize. 
> 
>Just to frustrate everyone, I will try to hide whether I am GM, player or  
>bystander, and will try to present the arguments put forth by each side  
>objectively.  I have eliminated invective and arguments that the maker  
>later retracted as silly.  I have also combined repetitive arguments,  
>eliminated uninformative repetition of the same point, and so on.  I have  
>also eliminated a final resolution, if any. 
> 
>Dispute #1: The facts. 
> 
>A GM has decided that ED/rED "Only vs Fire or Heat-based attacks" is a  
>valid -1/2 Limitation in his campaign, based on frequency.  Ignis, a  
>fire-based character with EC: Command of Fire, wants to buy a large  
>amount of ED/rED with that Limitation and place it in the EC.  The GM has  
>ruled that defenses limited to the element of an EC belong in the EC.   
>Ignis also has the Distinctive Feature that he is always aflame in Hero  
>ID, and has an Always-On Damage Shield. 
> 
>The Dispute: 
> 
>Player: I think that Ignis is entitled to a much larger Limitation, since  
>Fire is less likely to be used against him, seeing that he obviously  
>flames. 
> 
>GM: That is absurd.  The fact that you are obviously immune to fire does  
>not make your defense less valuable; it makes it more valuable. 
 
   Both are wrong; the Limitation is neither less nor more valuable.  It's 
true that villains with flame powers are, by and large, going to let their 
comrades handle Ignis, and for the reasons cited.  However, there are also 
those who will single him out as a rival (Firewing comes to mind, though 
for different reasons than one might assume without knowing the character). 
 This will also be the character of choice for going into hot furnaces to 
retrieve valuable items and such. 
 
>Player: That is ridiculous.  The book states that I should get an  
>additional limitation.  Look at the case of the Werewolf and Silver:  
>silver isn't all that common, but *everyone* knows that silver harms  
>werewolves. 
> 
>GM: You are misapplying the rule.  If a villain could tune his laser or  
>alter his flame blasts to avoid your defense, I would agree, but he  
>can't. 
 
   This is correct.  A brick or armored type doesn't get a cost break for 
being obviously tough, even though they tend to be targets for the 
mentalists, gadgeteers (with their NNDs and AVLDs), and other "special 
attack" types.  The werewolf gets an extra bonus because "everyone" knows 
how to handle them, and it's a lot easier to hand out guns with silver 
bullets than to hand out what amounts to *not* having a Power. 
 
>Player: Look.  I am not asking for anything unreasonable.  My normal  
>defenses are well within campaign limits for a Projector.  What I want,  
>and should have, is immunity to any fire that I am likely to come up  
>against in the campaign.  I don't want to be able to stand on the Sun,  
>but I want to be able to walk through a blast-furnace or a volcano. 
 
   The GM and Player might consider an extra Limitation (say, a total -1) 
for "Only vs Ambient/Environmental Heat & Flames" on some extra ED, or even 
ED-only Armor.  This would eliminate considerations regarding combat 
situations, and still allow Ignis to walk through a blast-furnace or volcano. 
 
>Player: What about Visible Power Effects on my Armor at least? 
> 
>GM: The Armor is already Only in Hero ID.  You also have a visible Damage  
>Shield, Always on, that is Only in Hero ID.  Putting Visible Power  
>Effects on anything else in the EC strikes me as a Limitation that does  
>not limit the character. 
 
   I have to side with the GM on this one.  I really don't see what the 
effect of visible Armor would be for this character.  (Not to mention that 
I generally play Armor as being Visible already.) 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 08:30:11 -0700 
To: Champions Listserver <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogues #1 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:48 PM 5/24/1998 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
>> Um...on the other hand, it just occurred to me that Armor is a Standard 
>> Power...and it's therefore visible unless purchased otherwise. 
> 
>Hmmm...everyone was operating on the assumption that powers that do not  
>affect another character and that do not normally use END are not  
>visible.  Otherwise, Armor would have to be visible to three sense  
>groups.  Perhaps we are in error, or remembering something from 3rd  
>Edition. 
 
   Typically (and please note that I'm expressing what my observation has 
been from my own play, direct email discussions with other GMs, and past 
remarks on this list), Armor is treated as Visible to Sight at all times, 
and to Touch and Sound when it encounters an attack. 
--- 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 08:31:49 -0700 
To: HSR <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Powers lists 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:45 PM 5/24/1998 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>On Sat, 23 May 1998, Chad Riley wrote: 
> 
>> > >   I kinda like DCH, V&V/LL,  and MSH for some of their more absolute 
>> > > nature...Mostly I've found that Hero could use some sort of 'creation' 
>> > > power. Like the Energy solidification/Solid Illusions powers that are 
>> > > rather common.... 
>> > 
>> > Transform does this. Alternately, if you're just creating simple 
geometric 
>> > shapes, use Force Wall or Entangle. 
>>  
>> Actually, I also had thought that Summon would be good for the Energy 
Golems 
>> or Giant Green Power Ring Spawned Manga Robots...... 
> 
>Definitely. I was thinking of creating inanimate objects, though. 
 
   Well, just a little while back I suggested using Entangle (or a Power 
based on Entangle) to do this, at least for mundane items.  Were you around 
for that?  Was this the kind of effect you had in mind? 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 08:58:11 -0700 
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Stat vs Stat 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:59 AM 5/24/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>At 02:28 PM 5/23/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>   Here's an idea that I just now came up with. 
> 
>Assuming a lot of latitude here: 
> 
>>   What if for Stat vs Stat checks, instead of rolling damage dice or Stat 
>>Rolls and comparing the results, these were just boiled down to the 
>>equivalent of an Attack Roll?  A STR vs STR Roll, to use the most 
>>frequently-used instance as an example, would become (Attacker's STR/3) + 
>>11 - (Defender's STR/3) or less. 
> 
>This makes the seemingly impossible, actually impossible.  A STR vs STR 
>roll with 50 vs 25 becomes an 11 + 17 - 8 or 20-.  But in reality, if 3 of 
>the 10 dice are 1s with no 6s and 3 of the 5 dice are 6s with no 1s, the 25 
>STR breaks out.  Not good odds, but not impossible either.  If you change 
>it so that 3 always succeeds and 18 always fails, you skew the chances the 
>other way. 
 
   Well, let's see.... 
   I'd rate myself as having about an 8 STR.  Suppose someone Grabbed me 
with a STR of 33 (8 + 50 - 25).  This individual is capable of lifting 2.4 
tons, which is more than my car.  I think it's perfectly reasonable to 
assume that my only chance to get out would be based on pure luck, which is 
what the "3 always succeeds" really represents. 
 
>>   For that matter, Skill vs Skill can be done the same way, with any 
>>appropriate Skill Levels (including plain old plusses to the Skill Roll) 
>>being used as a modifer in favor of the character who has them.  Thus, 
>>Perception vs Stealth would become (Perceiver's INT/3) + (Perceiver's 
>>Enhanced Perception and Levels) + 11 - (Stealthist's DEX/3) - (Stealthist's 
>>Levels).  (Or, the Stealthist and Perceiver could be reversed, depending on 
>>how the GM wants to consider things.) 
> 
>A question: I assume you mean a stealth vs perception roll.  Let's 
>Character S has a DEX of 14 and spends 5 points on stealth.  Normally that 
>would give him a Stealth of 14-.  Now above you say DEX/3.  Did you mean 
>DEX/3 + 1 because I spent an extra 2 points on stealth?  Or, Stealth/3?  I 
>assume you are talking about a SkillCV.  So skill level would be 9 + stat/5 
>+ 1/2CP and SCV would be skill level/3?  My first problem is all of this it 
>adds a lot of math to what use to be a comparison.  Also, all skills have 
>to have two numbers associated with them on the character sheet. 
 
   Yes, I meant Stealth vs Perception; at the time I wrote the above, my 
BBB was buried under a bunch of other books and I didn't want to dig it 
out.  (I apologize for my laziness.) 
   If you have Stealth at +1, then the CV for this would be (DEX/3)+1. 
   What extra math there is here isn't all that hard to do on the fly (at 
least, for most folks -- not to denigrate those who would have trouble with 
it, of course).  Most Skills not taken primarily as Required Skills for 
large Powers are taken at their base value, at least in my experience and 
perception; only those that have extra levels built in would need a second 
notation. 
   Oh, and a quibble (which becomes a little more salient later on): the 
above character's straight Stealth Roll is actually 13-. 
 
>>   This would result in somewhat less die-rolling in a game, simpler 
>>resolution for certain tasks, and a better reason to buy stats at a value 
>>other than those ending with 0, 3, 5, 8. 
> 
>How would concealment work?  There is only one concealment roll per any 
>number of search rolls.  I wouldn't want to see both set of rules included 
>in the game system as that would be confusing. 
 
   I will admit to having not totally thought this out when I wrote it; I'd 
only come up with the idea a couple of hours beforehand. 
   As for Concealment, only the separate Concealment Roll would be 
eliminated; the search rolls would be Perception vs Concealment.  (OTOH the 
GM could allow an initial Concealment Skill Roll, and allow the relative 
success as a modifier to search rolls.) 
 
>>   I don't know if this is something to put in Hero5 (in place of the 
>>current Stat vs Stat and Skill vs Skill methods, or at least as an option 
>>for that), but it's something I thought I'd put out for people to consider. 
> 
>I don't think it's a good idea, Bob.  The success rate would go all to 
>hell.  If Char S above is sneaking past a guard (Int 10).  Normally he 
>would have 14- roll vs the guard's 11- roll.  His chance of succeeding by 1 
>or more is far greater than the guard's.  Your way would just be a 13- 
>success roll (I think).  I don't think the percentages work out correctly. 
>(I may be wrong, and I don't have the time now to actually calculate them.) 
 
   I think that balance in the Hero System is a lot less delicate than a 
lot of people think.  This is largely because the Hero System covers a 
narrower range of power within any given set of guidelines; a superhero 
who's been at it for five years and has 150 experience points can work 
alongside a green newcomer with no experience, and as long as both are 
built with the same guidelines (that is, the newcomer is comparable to how 
the veteran was when he started) they can fight beside each other against 
the same opponents.  This is much less the case in some other game systems, 
where foes that would barely challenge a five-year veteran would one-shot a 
rookie without breaking a sweat. 
   (BTW: Char S would have a StealthCV of 6, vs the guard's PerCV of 3, 
which would be a straight 14- Roll.  Yes, this represents a higher chance 
of success than the straight 13- Stealth vs 11- Perception; I knew from the 
outset that this would alter success rates.  But it would alter them both 
ways; compare that against an intelligent, experienced security man with 18 
INT and +2 PER, whose PerCV is 8.  What was a 13- Stealth vs 15- Perception 
becomes StealthCV 6 vs PerCV 8, or 9- -- and not being much of a 
mathemetician, this looks to be pretty close to the same odds.) 
 
>And why would you consider putting into Hero5 if you haven't tried it on an 
>ongoing basis?  Try this in one of your campaigns and let us know how it 
>goes, but I think the percentages are skewed too much. 
 
   Well, I'm not doing Hero5, and I really doubt that it would go in 
anyway, unless it's a special option that gets maybe a quarter page of text. 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 08:59:57 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Stat vs Stat 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:18 AM 5/24/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>At 07:21 AM 5/24/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>   Try considering the roll to be not just how the perceiver perceives, but 
>>how the perception and the stealth compare.  If (using the existing method) 
>>the perceiver makes his roll by 3 and the stealthist by 2, then the result 
>>is the same as if the perceiver makes his roll by 1 and the stealthist 
>>makes his exactly.  This Roll just determines how the two compare with a 
>>single Roll, rather than having to make separate Rolls and doing the math. 
> 
>But this does not work at the extremes.... 
   [snip] 
>Based on my experience, if you don't care about the low end of the scale 
>your method will work fine in SuperHero games. 
 
   Interestingly, most of your points (especially those in the other post 
on this) make the opposite point: that it works better in low-lever games 
than high-level games, where the extremes are more extreme. 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 09:03:32 -0700 
To: Hero Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Stat vs Stat 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:39 PM 5/24/1998 -0300, Trevor Barrie wrote: 
>On Sun, 24 May 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
> 
>> At 02:28 PM 5/23/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>> >   What if for Stat vs Stat checks, instead of rolling damage dice or Stat 
>> >Rolls and comparing the results, these were just boiled down to the 
>> >equivalent of an Attack Roll?  A STR vs STR Roll, to use the most 
>> >frequently-used instance as an example, would become (Attacker's STR/3) + 
>> >11 - (Defender's STR/3) or less. 
> 
>Unless you have some really rigorous way of deciding who the "attacker" or 
>"defender" is in any situation, it would be a good idea to change that 11 
>to a 10. That way symmetry is maintained, and a contest between two people 
>of equal capabilities becomes 50-50. 
 
   I could certainly live with that. 
   Frankly, I'm of a mind to change the base number for all such Rolls to 
10; using 11 has always seemed a tad "off-balance" to me.  (Not in favor of 
any particular group; just a bit skewed, that's all.) 
--- 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 09:37:14 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Vehicles -- the Vulnerability, *2 BODY, of Hero. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:16 PM 5/24/1998 -0700, Lizard wrote: 
>Has anyone ever noticed that the HSR Vehicle Design system *really bites*? 
 
   Well, hopefully TUSV will help, at least a little. 
 
>I just tried to design a spaceship a few days ago. Among the things the 
>system didn't answer was: 
 
   I'll answer based on what I have in my current manuscript for TUSV.  (At 
the same time, I'd like to add that most if not all of Rat's "just wing it" 
answers are perfectly legitimate.  All I do in TUSV is give ways to 
quantify these things for those who want to quantify them.) 
 
>a)How much crew does it need? 
 
   By default, one. 
   I do have a new Disadvantage in TUSV, "Crew."  For every 2x crew needed 
to run the thing, you get +5 points.  If they need a full-fledged Skill 
rather than just a one-point Vehicle Familiarity, that's another +5 points 
(and +5 points for every 3x points in Skills that have to be spent).  There 
are other elements as well, but that should give the basic gist. 
 
>b)How big should quarters be? 
 
   Figure on three hexes per individual, including communal spaces such as 
a galley, recreation lounge, "public" restrooms, and such. 
 
>c)What will it cost? 
 
   What will what cost?  Quarters?  The whole vehicle? 
   If you mean quarters, it costs 5 points for the whole shebang.  It'd 
bought as Life Support vs having to eat, excrete, or sleep. 
 
>d)What happens if my FTL system isn't compatible with the 'FTL' power? 
 
   Use a different method which represents what your system does. 
Extra-Dimensional Movement (into hyperspace or whatever) is one 
possibility.  Putting special Limitations on FTL is another.  You could 
even throw together.an all-new system if you want to. 
 
>e)How much internal space is taken up by engines, control panels, 
>computers, etc, and how does this change based on the available technology? 
 
   Engines, control panels, computers, fuel tanks, bulkheads, armor, and 
such take up about half of a vehicle's total space.  Changes based on 
available technology would have to be bought mechanically (and I provide a 
way of doing that in the book which is a little long for me to type in 
right now). 
 
>f)How do I specify '1 months food supply'? "Life Support, No Need To Eat, 
>One Continuing Charge (1 Month)"? 
>g)Ditto air and water. 
 
   That's still under discussion.  I admit that I hardly considered the 
idea when I put TUSV together. 
   Arguably the most reasonable way to do this would be to create a 
Transform (raw materials into needed Life Support items) running off an END 
Reserve, with just enough END to last for the given period of time. 
   Another method that has merit is to determine the longest period on the 
Time Chart that's likely to be a recurring problem, and declare that these 
forms of Life Support only work for the next larger time period as a 
default.  For every shorter step on the Time Chart, the Power gets a -1/4 
Limitation. 
   (Now that I've written it out, I think I actually like the latter better.) 
 
>h)How do I buy armor for exposed components which have a lesser armor than 
>the vehicle itself, such as turrets? 
 
   Hero System vehicles don't have turrets, as such.  Do you mean the DEF 
of exposed weapons?  There used to be a rule (eliminated from 4th ed, from 
what I can tell) that you could buy +1 DEF for an individual Focus for +1 
point, and I think I'd recommend that rule. 
 
>i)Why would any ship ever buy a power-consuming force field, when you can 
>buy DEF up indefinitely without worrying about weight? And does DEF 25 at 
>"Super future tech" weigh the same as DEF 25 as "Modern day tech"? 
 
   For the first part, there's cost.  If a vehicle has DEF 25, then that 
costs 69 points.  The same +23 DEF could be bought through a Force Field 
for 23 points, and if it's bought through an OIF (which is typical) that 
becomes 11 points. 
   Currently I don't address tech levels in TUSV; this is really more a 
matter for Star Hero, if not individual campaign setting books.  I did 
import device mass and the Miniaturized Advantage from the original Star 
Hero (and extrapolated some ideas regarding Bulky and Immobile Foci based 
on this), but if higher Tech Levels have miniaturized devices then the 
points would have to be paid for it (as opposed to just given by fiat). 
 
>j)Sensors -- buy a bunch of Enhanced Senses? What about ranges? 
 
   Yes, use Enhanced Senses, especially detect.  Range is as effectively 
infinite as normal senses.  However, you'll probably want a few levels of 
Telescopic if you want to do things like discern individual life forms on a 
planet surface while in geosyncronous orbit. 
   Feel free to use Multipower to reduce the total cost (though with the 
caveat that while those that are allotted Pool points are in use, the 
others will be unavailable). 
 
>Somehow, there has to be a medium between "PhD in Engineering" books like 
>"Fire, Fusion, and Steel" and the three pages in HSR which allegedly cover 
>everything from skateboards to starships. GURPS Vehicles is pretty close, a 
>bit too math-heavy but not overwhelmingly so, but it suffers from the 
>linearity of GURPS. "OK, your ship's weapons do 6d6*500, and your armor is 
>DR 200,000 -- about average for a light freighter with no military hardware." 
> 
>Ultimate Super Vehicle, Wherefore Art Thou? 
 
   The last I heard, it was in Steve Peterson's "In" box waiting for his 
review after Bruce finished.  I was going to wait another week before 
tagging him on it, but since it's been brought up.... 
   HEY STEVE!  How's it coming along?  :-] 
--- 
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   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 10:04:03 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Good/bad cops 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 09:52 PM 5/24/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
>Cc: Champions Listserv <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
>Subject: Re: Good/bad cops 
> 
>> >  I work too hard at my job and have seen too many courageous comrades 
buried 
>> >serving the public to want to stay on such a list. 
>> 
>>    Don't bother leaving, Mark.  The discussion's dead already. 
>>    Besides, Tim's just being a typical English-major college student.  He 
>> knows only his firsthand experience and doesn't think things through to 
>> look at the broad picture.  (You know, kinda like Mike Stivic on "All In 
>> the Family" -- a lot of ideas and thoughts, but no connection with the real 
>> world.  Good brain, but doesn't bother to use it that much.) 
> 
> Oh, thanks.  Actually, I do have some experiences besides my own, 
>enough at least to show that cops aren't all that nice to the under 25 (or 
>maybe 30) crowd.  I also have stories of years of persecution from law 
>enforcement and military against my grandfather and his ancestors, being 
>native american -- and this still goes on, though more at the federal 
>level than the local.  I'm not going to lay down and agree that all cops 
>are great, it's just not true.  May major point earlier, of course, is 
>that I think this to be a matter of a general human failing -- people are 
>drawn to positions where they can get a little bit of power, and are 
>somewhat corrupted by that power.  (Ala George Orwell).  I compared it to 
>teachers, and had a teacher privately jump down my throat.  This is 
>ironic, because I start TAing, teaching two Freshman Comp courses in the 
>fall, and my biggest worry is making sure that I don't abuse my power in 
>any way -- I want to be fair, but know that I will have to be careful. 
 
   So what are you afraid you're going to do -- hunt people down 
conjugating verbs incorrectly? 
   To begin with, you did not by any means start out by saying that abuse 
among police was a human failing.  It happens to be a true statement, but 
it was a later admission. 
   You've barely acknowledged the fact, which I pointed out, that police in 
the suburban areas around Chicago have a history of various sorts of 
corruption, which basically started during Prohobition and have simply 
continued to this day, but which is not shared by police in most other areas. 
   Never mind the fact that if you're in one of those situations where a 
bad cop will harass you, you're never going to even encounter the good cop. 
   For example, take an experience that Johnnie Cochrane had shortly before 
leaving the LA District Attorney's office (an episode of "The Fresh Prince 
of Bel Air" was patterned after it).  He was pulled over and nearly 
arrested for stealing his car simply because he's black and his car was an 
expensive one; only when one of the officers recognized him for who he was 
did he keep from getting hauled in (though both cops were still canned). 
But how many police did he drive past in the preceding, say, two weeks who 
also didn't recognize him, but didn't give him any hassles? 
   To say that the LAPD is full of Mark Fuhrmans would be grossly unfair. 
There are more like him there (even assuming the worst about him) than in 
other areas, but the vast majority are hard-working, dedicated individuals 
whom you will rarely encounter unless you're an offender, the victim of an 
offense, or a witness. 
   To say that fully 50% of cops are corrupt is also grossly unfair, unless 
you're prepared to give a similar percentage to the whole of humanity. 
   Your failing here is to assume that you sampling is representative of 
the whole.  It is not; as with the earlier discussion on how religious 
people are portrayed in Champions products, it's a biased sampling.  In 
that case, religious were portrayed as "problem personalities" (including 
but not limited to villains) because the sampling was of "problem 
personalities," some of whom happened to be religious.  In this case, your 
sampling is biased because you and those you've discussed this with have 
met mostly those cops who are on power trips, but you haven't taken a look 
at the larger picture, that of police as a whole. 
   Watching TV shows like "Cops" and "America's Dumbest Criminals" would be 
a good start.  You might also ask if you could tour your local police 
station (it's probably not something they do on a regular basis, but some 
do bring school children in on field trips, so they might let you take a 
look around anyway -- you never know). 
   Now, for the reason that I put this rather long post on the list rather 
than mailing it privately (or, as was my original inclination given my 
earlier statement, not saying anything at all):  PCs will probably have a 
similar experience with certain groups.  For instance, they may have no 
aliens among them, and be regularly running into aliens who want to conquer 
the earth or kill someone or do something else evil.  What if a hero 
group's exposure to aliens was all negative?  How would they then treat 
someone like, say, Obsidian?  It could be an interesting campaign point to 
intentionally feed a prejudice on the part of the PCs, and then turn that 
prejudice on its ear when they meet an honorable person of the group 
they're supposed to hate.  (A similar twist was done with Cardassians in 
the first couple of seasons of Deep Space Nine.) 
   Or turning that around, this could explain why Golden Avenger Kaufman 
has a problem with mutants -- the ones he mets were almost all criminals, 
so he developed a decided anti-mutant prejudice.  Any PC mutants would be 
treated by him with a definite attitude.  This, of course, led to PRIMUS 
being portrayed as an organization of bigots, especially anti-mutant 
bigots, and the whole thing became a vicious cycle -- a different issue 
altogether. 
   The point:  how do we deal with prejudice in games?  Ignore it, simply 
acknowledge it, or deal with it head-on? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 10:19:52 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Armor Piercing Variant... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 09:59 AM 5/25/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Lizard  writes: 
> 
>> A simple variant to make Armor Piercing more variable, primarily for use 
>> in making Heroic-scale weapons and armor better diffrentiated: 
> 
>I like the version that showed up in "GM's Discretion".  Instead of halving 
>the target's defense, it reduces the target's defenses by the number of DCs 
>in the base attack.  So, an 8D6 EB w/ this variant of Armor Piercing would 
>reduce any target's defenses by 8 before damage is applied. 
> 
>[...] 
>> Limited Armor Piercing:+1/4 advantage to divide defenses by 1.5. 
>> Armor Piercing:+1/2 advantage to divide defenses by 2. 
>> Advanced Armor Piercing:+1 advantage to divide defenses by 4. 
> 
>Hmmm... my gut reaction is to make the +1 level a div by 3 instead of div 
>by 4.  Other than that, I think it is workable. 
 
   Well, there is the problem of what to do with multiple purchases of 
Hardened. 
   However, I did forget to mention in my earlier post that I hearlily 
endorse the suggested +1/4 level.  I'd made it reduced to 75%, but that's a 
matter of a relatively handful of defense points. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 11:01:31 -0700 
To: HSR <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re: Powers lists 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 08:31 AM 5/25/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   Well, just a little while back I suggested using Entangle (or a Power 
>based on Entangle) to do this, at least for mundane items.  Were you around 
>for that?  Was this the kind of effect you had in mind? 
 
What's wrong with Transform Air-to-Whatever? 
 
A problem with Summon for Giant Robot Warriors is that a Summoned creature 
isn't under your control. Perhaps a follower with Variable SFX and a time 
limit? 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 15:18:05 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 25 May 1998, GAZZA wrote: 
 
> A Power does not imply a superhuman ability. Even the BBB uses 
> HKA and Armour to reflect the claws and higher resistance of 
> animals; 
 
Both of which are superhuman abilities. 
 
> and technically Running and Swimming are both Powers. 
 
True, but that's a special case. (For one thing, they're the only 
"Powers" which everbody gets some of for free.) 
 
> In Hero terms, I'd suspect that these world-class climbers could 
> certainly be represented with limited Clinging. Indeed, that's 
> the sort of person that's being simulated with this construct - 
> not a Spiderman type, but just a damn good climber. 
 
One could argue that, if the GM feels that it makes sense for incredibly 
good climbing skill to perform such feats, he or she will use the  
Extraordinary Skill rules; if they don't, they're probably not going to 
allow this character concept into their campaign. 
 
I don't think this argument holds for the super-hero genre, though; the 
Extraordinary Skill rules are fairly clearly inappropriate to that genre, 
but "super-skill" types are fairly common. 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 15:22:09 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 25 May 1998, Rick Holding wrote: 
 
> > > Do you really think so? When I decided to start up a new 
> > > fantasy campaign about 18 months ago, I used D&D because it 
> > > was (IMHO) the simplest to learn (and I had a couple of new 
> > > players to break in). 
> >  
> > IMO, Ars Magica is the best system available for the fantasy genre. 
>  
> 	While it may be the best (disputable), it is certainly complex enough 
> to even cause Hero fans to baulk. 
 
Complex compared to what? It's vastly simpler than AD&D, and simpler than 
Hero too as far as I can tell. 
 
> Not so much the set spells, but the spontanious magic that is such a big and 
> intergral part of the system. 
 
You roll a die, apply the modifiers, see how high they got and check what 
a spell of that level can do according to the guidelines. Where's the 
complexity? 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 13:23:13 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> > You do not actually change height, so you're reach is the same, but you 
> > cannot use cover as well. 
> 
> Except that with Shrinking your height *DOES* change.  That is what the 
> power does; everything else is secondary to that. 
 
	Bzzt!  Bzzt!  Bzzt!  Bzzt! 
 
	This is a Rat-Opinion-Alert.  Any resemblance to anything 
regarding official hero rules should be considered to be only a 
coincidence.  Repeat, this is only Rat's opinion. 
 
	Those looking for rules ideas are advised to disregard this 
example that weakens the flexibility of the Hero System. 
 
	Now we return you to your regularly scheduled Mailing List. 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 13:33:39 -0500 (CDT) 
From: "Tim R. Gilberg" <trgilber@hilltop.ic.edu> 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Good/bad cops 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
>    Uh, Tim: there's a big difference between, "I've had a majority of bad 
> experiences with cops," and calling them "the American Gestapo." 
>    A honking *BIG* difference. 
 
	Right.  The Gestapo thing was a quip about the war on drugs.  One 
person took it seriously, and I pointed out my experiences with bad cops 
and my perception of there being too many bad cops. 
 
	Mark then, after that post, decided that I was o[ut of line and 
didn't have the right to badmouth his profession, and offered only moral 
indignation to support his view.  I'm sorry, but that's not nearly enough 
for me to change my perception, if anything it reinforces it. 
 
>    Like someone else whom I know personally saying, "I've had a majority of 
> bad experiences with blacks" (which he did), and calling them "morally 
> inferior" (which he never would). 
 
	Agreed, and I've apologized for the hurt feelings over my little 
sarcastic comment.  I do ffel that there are parallels to police states 
and the war on drugs, however -- especially because I and my car have been 
searched before.  (Well, not my car, but one I was riding in.) 
 
 
 
				-Tim Gilberg 
 
		    -"Hey!  MacLeod!  Get off of my ewe!" 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 15:35:33 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 25 May 1998, John Lansford wrote: 
 
> On Sun, 24 May 1998 18:59:05 -0300 (ADT), you wrote: 
 
> >You should probably find a better attribution system for responses 
> >to a mailing list. 
>  
> You're the only one griping. I don't change my entire system for one 
> person. 
 
You don't agree that said line is unhelpful, then? 
 
> >> >Mental powers (and a few others) operate along a "line-of-sight" basis. 
> >> >That is, you must be able to see your target.  But can line-of-sight 
> >> >include things like video surveillance?  
> > 
> >Definitely yes IMO. 
>  
> In your campaign, then, mentalists can mind control anyone seen on 
> television? Read their minds? Plant memories and have them see 
> illusions from the safety of their own homes? 
 
It hasn't really come up, but in theory, sure. 
 
> The US' current system of government would rapidly fall apart in such 
> a situation, or get mentalists deported from the country just as fast. 
 
Who cares? I'm not an American.:) 
 
> >> No. Otherwise, a mentalist assassin could kill anyone seen on a 
> >> television. 
> > 
> >That may be why the rules forbid Based on ECV Powers from doing BODY 
> >damage. 
>  
> OK, so I buy the advantage "does body" for an Ego based mental power. 
 
No such Advantage exists. The rules do state that as an optional rule 
the GM may allow such Powers to do BODY, but given your concerns, I can't 
see why you'd use that rule. 
 
> If not that, then mind control then mind control the President (or his 
> opponent) during a televised debate, etc, etc. 
 
How hard is it to become part of the audience for a public debate? 
 
> >I've never seen any problem with it. Could you elaborate? 
>  
> See above. Anyone on television, such as members of the government and 
> military, would be possible targets for invisible assassins and 
> criminals. 
 
I'm inclined to think it's fairly easy to get within binocular range 
of any public figure, if you're willing to expend the time. Allowing 
Mental Powers via TV may help out the fat, lazy mentalists, but I don't 
see how it would make that much of a difference in the overall balance 
of power. 
 
I can see SFX reasons for not allowing it (why exactly does a mentalist 
need "line of sight", anyway?), but the play balance arguments aren't 
very convincing IMODO. 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 15:40:32 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Superman (1938) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On 24 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> > Why would one want to reward having a single SFX, unless it was felt that 
> > this indicates a good concept? 
>  
> Having a single special effect means that if an antagonist manages to hit 
> upon a weakness, it is going to cripple everything the character can do. 
 
I've thought of that, but I don't see how it can be enough to justify 
the near-50% cost break of EC, especially when you consider that if the 
weakness is significant, the character is already going to get a cost break 
by taking it as a Disadvantage or a Limitation on the EC. 
 
Besides, an EC doesn't require that _all_ of your Powers have a common 
SFX - just the ones in the EC. 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 15:44:00 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Sun, 24 May 1998, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
 
> Let me try another slant on this.  Would everyone agree that there are 3 
> fairly distinct GM activities? 
> 	#1 Designing powers, weapons, whatever 
> 	#2 Assembling these parts into creatures, charactes, etc. 
> 	#3 Running the game. 
>  
> All RPGs give you #3, and I'm not really very concerned with it.  Most RPGs 
> give you some guidelines and examples on #2.  But very few (maybe only 
> Hero) gives you #1.  Yeah, the other games give you a list of things.  This 
> is what GURPs mostly does, especially in their magic and psionic sections.  
> Anyone want to take a crack at adding spells to GURPs?  You can do it, but 
> it's all just judgment call and then playtest it--same as for AD&D, 
> Rolemaster, you name it. 
 
IMODO, a fantasy RPG without a spell creation system is almost as unplayable 
as a superhero game without a power creation system - but now that you 
mention it, Ars Magica and Fantasy Hero are the only fantasy games I can 
think of that have one. 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 15:45:23 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On 24 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> >> Which part of "Acrobatics already can affect CV" does this contradict? 
>  
> > The letter "V". 
>  
> > Acrobatics can't _directly_ affect CV. Use of the skill can set up a 
> > circumstance where one (or more) of the standard combat modifiers comes 
> > into play, but then, lots of Skills can do that. 
>  
> Since you insist on picking semantic nits, 
 
I pick, therefore I am. 
 
> I did not "directly affect", nor did I say "will affect".  I said 
> "Acrobatics already can affect CV".  And I did not say "no" to it, I said 
> it makes me twitchy.  Having a CV modifier dependant upon another CV 
> modifer seems like double-dipping to me, or at least very cheezy. 
 
But my point is, I don't think it's accurate to refer to Acrobatics as 
a "CV modifier". 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 15:50:42 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 25 May 1998, Firelynx16 wrote: 
 
> > > >Mental powers (and a few others) operate along a "line-of-sight" basis. 
> >  > >That is, you must be able to see your target.  But can line-of-sight 
> >  > >include things like video surveillance?  
> >   
> >  Definitely yes IMO. 
>  
> I would say no here, simply because you are not seeing your target on a 
> televison screen, you are seeing an electronic reproduction of the target, a 
> series of still pictures, really.   And that image on the screen is going to 
> be exactly the same whether it's live or on tape (disregarding loss of 
> generation). 
 
[...] 
 
> In a television, your LoS goes from the attacker's eyes to the tv screen, not 
> the target... that's the difference.  It's the exact same thing as looking at 
> a snapshot of your intended target.  And I wouldn't imagine there are too 
> many GMs out there that would allow someone to target an opponent by staring 
> at a Polaroid (tm) of them... 
 
Hmmm. You're right, that makes sense. I'm still not sure that the mirror 
case is different, though; you're still looking at an image of the target 
rather than the real thing, even if said image is being generated more 
directly. 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 13:59:51 -0700 
From: Chad Riley <chadriley01@m7.sprynet.com> 
Reply-To: chadriley01@sprynet.com 
Organization: None 
To: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Police Portrayal in Campaigns 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Hurt Feeling's aside. 
 
 
The police in the campaigns I have run are usually good guys who are 
outclassed by supervillains (except in particularly rich metropolises where 
anti supervillain departments have superagent capabilities). They are also 
generally "officilly" against superheroes. The Higher - ups are against the 
"Non - Sanctioned" heroes. Batman in my campaign would not have a 
commissioner  as a contact, but probably several officers. 
 
when I play, the police only seemed to show up as targets for evil 
creatures(my teammates)  and misguied heroes (me). Bad Cops exist but they 
are rare and scattered. And like Bob my experience with the police in 
Corvallis and in Eugene have been overwhelmingly positive. 
 
 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 17:11:11 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>>The only problem is:  These games all sell really well and are considered 
>>easier to play.  I say that is because so much of the effort in Hero is 
>>directed towards providing #1, AND you can't just build an adventure and 
>>run a game without #1 intruding on you constantly. 
 
>Really? I don't find that at all. The players announce what they want 
>to do, then the GM  acts accordingly. Sure, if I need to go to the nth 
>degree I can, but if I just want (for example) a monster to throw at 
>the players, I'll just slap down a brief description, BODY, CV, Stun, 
>and Damage. Other stats as appropriate. If necessary, I'll improvise 
>during play, and keep a note. 
>qts 
 
Sure, I do that too.  But would you agree that you actually did more than 
just slap it down?  Didn't you draw on a lot of experience designing things 
and playing Hero to make sure that the "BODY, CV, Stun, and Damage" were 
set to an appropriate level?  In effect, what you have done is absorb 
enough of the "why" of Hero that you don't really need the exact cost of 
anything to keep it balanced--unless perhaps it is a novel situtation. 
 
Could one of your player's do the same, even if he has never run Hero as 
the GM?  If you were going to teach him how, what would you do short of 
just let him work through it and gain the experience like you did?  More to 
the point, if this player is not personally known to you, but is some 
hypothetical first-time purchaser of some Hero rules, what would you put in 
the box to give him this experience? 
 
The reason I ask is that I've about come to the conclusion that you cannot 
pass this experience along.  The best you can do is let them struggle with 
it and provide ways (like this list) for them to ask questions.  But you 
can provide more in the way of useful and SIMPLE samples to keep them 
running until they do gain the experience.  I'm also suggesting that those 
"more useful samples" are components, not fully developed NPCs and monsters 
with gobs of design information embedded in their presentation. 
 
I think Hero is the only game that really has to struggle with this issue.  
It's the old "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day.  Teach him to fish, 
feed him for a lifetime."  All the other games just sell "fish."  Even 
GURPs says, "want that particularly obscure fish?  Here's another 
sourcebook.  Everything in there works and is playtested.  Here's a few 
things you can tweak.  Change Grog's weapon from a battle axe to a 
broadsword.  That's about it."  O.K., so I exaggerate just a bit :-)   
 
OTOH, Hero seems to want to teach to fish, like some wizened, but high-tech 
hermit passing on mysterious truths.  "Reflect on the beauty and elegence 
of this particular titanium rod.  Observe the delicate balance of the reel. 
 Take this tacklebox of 1000 lures to the stream of your choosing.  There, 
observe carefully the actions of the stream.  When you are ready, you will 
know where to cast." 
 
So, the poor guy--who was tired of just buying fish and knew there was 
something better--starves to death because he is paralyzed by indecision or 
couldn't get the tackle box open. Can't we give him a bamboo rod, a 4 pound 
line, a hook, some bait, and tell him where the fish are biting? 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 15:57:25 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Five against an Army (was Re: Players who dont pay attention) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 17 
 
Todd Hanson wrote: 
>  
>  
> Heh, now THAT sounds familiar.  And of course, you can NEVER convince 
> them that the 5 of them have NO chance of defeating an army of 3 
> billion... 
>  
> Of course, letting them TRY could be fun, but it would probably spell 
> the end of your campaign... 
 
Well, I would expect it to run as follows.  The GM writes up enough  
information on various installations to run an entire planet, and decides  
to let the players hang themselves.  He tells the players, "I just want  
you to be clear that, from a metagaming point of view, this is your  
idea, and not the GM's.  This Evil Empire has repelled incursions  
before, and you can expect them to be efficient, ruthless, clever and  
dangerous.  Do not expect any Script Immunity if you do this."   
 
The PCs attack some outposts with full surprise.  Since the outposts are  
not well prepared for super-powers, they win easily; however, the players  
lack a Code Against Loose Ends (CALE) and leave witnesses, physical  
evidence and surveillance records of their exploits. 
 
Based on this information, the Powers That Be (tm) devise a rational set  
of doctrines for meeting the PCs.  In addition, they begin training one  
or more special units to seek out and destroy the PCs.  The PCs meet  
increasingly tough opposition.  From a metagaming viewpoint, the GM wants  
to raise the risk slowly to give the PCs time to change their minds.   
Unfortunately, this merely whets the players' appetites, and they are  
convinced that they are near victory. 
 
Every mistake on the part of the GM or fortunate die roll that saves the  
players increases the conviction that they are on track.  The GM says,  
"You realize that you were all almost killed this time.  The enemy is  
getting more efficient at meeting your threat, and you have not yet taken  
on any of the major complexes.  Are you sure you don't want to declare  
victory and leave?"  The players say to one another, "Aha!  The GM is  
trying to talk us out of this!  Clearly, this is a coded message  
directing us to keep going!" 
 
Finally, the GM sets up an ambush for the PCs: a tempting target, guarded  
by a battalion of specially-trained-and-equipped troops.  Most of the PCs  
escape with their lives, but barely.  The plan is in ruins.  The Players  
recriminate with the GM for practically forcing them into a line of play  
that was intended as a set-up to destroy them from the beginning.  They  
will point out numerous remarks and circumstances made since the  
beginning of play that were "clearly" intended to foreshadow this  
conflict as the climax of the campaign.  For example, if you take the  
locale of the first expedition, and the last two climactic battles before  
this, they form an almost straight line leading to this planet. 
 
Of course, the GM is mystified and amused at the coincidences, but his  
protestations fall of deaf ears.  He is clearly a bad GM and out to get  
the players. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 18:07:51 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Robert Harrison <rharriso@iastate.edu> 
Subject: Re: VPP and Magic (Was Re: How Complicated Is Champions?) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
>The active cost bothered me too, until I came up with this.  The VPP can 
>take no limits.  The control cost was always bought at a -1 limit (-1/2 for 
>spell book or religious restrictions, the other -1/2 for when and how 
>spells could be switched).  So the final control cost was always 1/4 the 
>VPP.  Then I just jumped clear of the rules completely and decided that the 
>control cost was the "active limit" instead.  For a price break (and ease 
>of calculation), I used a 1/5 ration instead of 1/4.  It works like this: 
> 
>	VPP just like before, but no control cost required, active cost not 
>based 
>on 
>		size of pool. 
>	Every point in Active Limit gives 5 points of active cost in the pool. 
> 
>This way, with the active cost independent of the actual VPP, you can 
>construct a "normal" character if you want, say, 30 point VPP (30 points) 
>and 30 Active Limit (6 points).  Or, for only 3 more points, the character 
>can cast 45 active point spells, without waiting for another 15 points in 
>the pool. 
> 
My solution to the active cost problem was to double the active cost limit 
of the VPP, i.e. a magic-user with a 30 point pool can cast 60 active point 
spells.  To simulate the flavor of the GURPS Magic system, the control cost 
is purchased with 0 phase action to change (+1), No skill roll required to 
change (+1), and Only learned spells (-1), so that a 30 pt VPP + control 
cost = 52 points.  Magic-users must also pay a 1 pt "spell familitary" for 
each spell they know.  I haven't actually played a game with this system 
yet (even though I've designed over 350 spells and magic items), and I'm a 
little concerned about whether this system gives magic-users too much power 
- I'm hoping that insisting on Requires a Skill Roll for each spell and 
carefully screening player-designed spells will keep magic-users from 
dominating the campaign.  Do you have any problems with magic-users being 
too powerful?  Also, does the size of the VPP in your system still impose 
limitations on how many Real points in spells a mage can have running? 
 
____________________________ 
Robert L. Harrison 
Department of Entomology 
411 Science II 
Iowa State University 
Phone: (515) 294-3963 
Fax: (515) 294-5957 
 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 16:29:02 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 19 
 
Christopher Taylor wrote: 
>  
> At 10:59 PM 5/22/98 -0500, you wrote: 
> >>Got all this beat.  I'm playing in a AD & D game where three of the players 
> >>get up the middle of the game, go in the bathroom, and smoke pot.  Often 
> >>its just me and the GM sitting in the gaming room hanging out. 
 
It is extremely disrespectful to expose others needlessly to a risk of  
arrest, no matter how small.  I don't care what anyone's opinion of the  
drug laws is, the laws are a reality.   
  
How do the players behave when they return to the game?  My experience is  
that stoned players detract from the game significantly. 
 
> >Regardless of anyone's personal opinion of the legality issues involved, 
> >going to another room and engaging in another unecessary activity should be 
> >unacceptable. 
 
True in general, although I know people who are good at picking their  
nicotine breaks: GM-optional table, some other character has a long  
role-playing opportunity, etc. 
 
>  
> Yeah basically it comes down to a lack of respect and fun for everyone else, 
> especially for the GM who worked hard for the game.  Whether it be necking 
> with your sweety, watching the basketball game, talking about a movie, or 
> what ever its annoying and frustrating. 
 
I remember a couple who in one game many moons ago, who kept a blanket to  
cover themselves with, under the illusion that no one else would notice  
or be distracted or offended by the goings on under the blanket. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 19:50:03 -0400 
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Armor Piercing Variant... 
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
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> I prefer the system in Adventurers Club where AP reduces the DEF by the 
> DC of the attack. 
 
My group has playtested that version, and I believe it to be WAY 
underpriced. I've found that it is deadly to low-defense characters, and 
much less effective against high-defense charatcers, which seems to me to 
be exactly the opposite of what Armor Piercing is supposed to do. 
 
Jeff Reid 
Morfhis@compuserve.com 
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 19:50:07 -0400 
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Stat vs Stat 
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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> >   What if for Stat vs Stat checks, instead of rolling damage dice or 
Stat 
> >Rolls and comparing the results, these were just boiled down to the 
> >equivalent of an Attack Roll?  A STR vs STR Roll, to use the most 
> >frequently-used instance as an example, would become (Attacker's STR/3) 
+ 
> >11 - (Defender's STR/3) or less. 
 
An interesting idea, with one noticeable flaw -- what about General Skills, 
the ones that aren't based on a stat roll? Shadowing vs. Shadowing, for 
instance. 
 
Jeff Reid 
Morfhis@compuserve.com 
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
Date: Tue, 26 May 98 00:10:23  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Mon, 25 May 1998 17:11:11 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
 
>>>The only problem is:  These games all sell really well and are considered 
>>>easier to play.  I say that is because so much of the effort in Hero is 
>>>directed towards providing #1, AND you can't just build an adventure and 
>>>run a game without #1 intruding on you constantly. 
> 
>>Really? I don't find that at all. The players announce what they want 
>>to do, then the GM  acts accordingly. Sure, if I need to go to the nth 
>>degree I can, but if I just want (for example) a monster to throw at 
>>the players, I'll just slap down a brief description, BODY, CV, Stun, 
>>and Damage. Other stats as appropriate. If necessary, I'll improvise 
>>during play, and keep a note. 
>>qts 
> 
>Sure, I do that too.  But would you agree that you actually did more than 
>just slap it down?  Didn't you draw on a lot of experience designing things 
>and playing Hero to make sure that the "BODY, CV, Stun, and Damage" were 
>set to an appropriate level? 
 
Not of Hero per se - more looking at what the *players* can handle. But 
then I've been a GM since 1980 or 1981 - mostly AD&D and Runequest. I 
started using Hero in 1988, I think. 
 
> In effect, what you have done is absorb 
>enough of the "why" of Hero that you don't really need the exact cost of 
>anything to keep it balanced--unless perhaps it is a novel situtation. 
 
Not really, it's the same as HP, THACO, Damage in AD&D. Oh, looks like 
I forgot DEF above. 
 
>Could one of your player's do the same, even if he has never run Hero as 
>the GM? 
 
As long as they'd run D&D, Runequest, or virtually any other RPG. The 
concepts are the same. 
 
> If you were going to teach him how, what would you do short of 
>just let him work through it and gain the experience like you did?  More to 
>the point, if this player is not personally known to you, but is some 
>hypothetical first-time purchaser of some Hero rules, what would you put in 
>the box to give him this experience? 
 
I had no trouble converting from AD&D to Hero; there was no 'gain in 
experience', so I really couldn't say.  However, I cannot possibly 
recommend Hero to a *beginning* GM, and it is not designed as such. 
 
>The reason I ask is that I've about come to the conclusion that you cannot 
>pass this experience along. 
 
Speaking generally, this is categorically not so. You teach by example 
with any RPG. 
 
<snip> 
 
> But you 
>can provide more in the way of useful and SIMPLE samples to keep them 
>running until they do gain the experience.  I'm also suggesting that those 
>"more useful samples" are components, not fully developed NPCs and monsters 
>with gobs of design information embedded in their presentation. 
 
Examples are seldom superfluous. 
 
>I think Hero is the only game that really has to struggle with this issue.  
>It's the old "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day.  Teach him to fish, 
>feed him for a lifetime."  All the other games just sell "fish."  Even 
>GURPs says, "want that particularly obscure fish?  Here's another 
>sourcebook.  Everything in there works and is playtested.  Here's a few 
>things you can tweak.  Change Grog's weapon from a battle axe to a 
>broadsword.  That's about it."  O.K., so I exaggerate just a bit :-)   
> 
>OTOH, Hero seems to want to teach to fish, like some wizened, but high-tech 
>hermit passing on mysterious truths.  "Reflect on the beauty and elegence 
>of this particular titanium rod.  Observe the delicate balance of the reel. 
> Take this tacklebox of 1000 lures to the stream of your choosing.  There, 
>observe carefully the actions of the stream.  When you are ready, you will 
>know where to cast." 
> 
>So, the poor guy--who was tired of just buying fish and knew there was 
>something better--starves to death because he is paralyzed by indecision or 
>couldn't get the tackle box open. Can't we give him a bamboo rod, a 4 pound 
>line, a hook, some bait, and tell him where the fish are biting? 
 
Basically no. IMO Hero is NOT a system for the beginning GM; it is one 
for the GM who wants more, and is willing to put more effort into his 
work, because you create everything from scratch. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 18:25:56 -0600 
From: A Kirkland <ajk117@mail.usask.ca> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
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To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:25 98/05/25 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>A Kirkland writes: 
> 
>> Or you could use Shrinking with a Density Decrease SFX. 
>> [...] 
>> You do not actually change height, so you're reach is the same, but you 
>> cannot use cover as well. 
> 
>Except that with Shrinking your height *DOES* change.  That is what the 
>power does; everything else is secondary to that. 
> 
 
No, this is Champions. SFX determine what the Power means. 
The Mechanic of Shrinking gives +2 DCV, -2 to be percieved, and a  
	tendency to get thrown around. 
The decrease in size is the ( almost unversal ) SFX. 
 
A Kirkland 
ajk117@mail.usask.ca 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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Date: 25 May 1998 21:26:23 -0400 
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GAZZA  writes: 
 
> A Power does not imply a superhuman ability. 
 
No, but when a Power does something that a normal person cannot, then there 
is no implication at all: the power *is* a superhuman ability. 
 
[...] 
 
> In Hero terms, I'd suspect that these world-class climbers could 
> certainly be represented with limited Clinging. Indeed, that's the sort 
> of person that's being simulated with this construct - not a Spiderman 
> type, but just a damn good climber. 
 
And my stance all along is that a power is unnecessary.  All that is 
required is Climbing skill at a very high level. 
 
> To be absolutely fair, I doubt that there are very many people that are 
> (eg) Light Sleepers, Ambidextrous, Lightning Calculators, or any other 
> talent. And I'd be interested to hear if there is a single example of any 
> recorded "real" Universal Translator. 
 
All of these are Talents, which are distinct from skills for exactly the 
reason you give: they are unusual. 
 
> All the "Powers as SuperSkills" introduced in the Ultimate series are 
> directed basically towards creating new Talents. 
 
If that is the goal, then why are they not presented as the Talents they 
supposedly are?  The answer to that is simple: the pseudo-Talents in 
question frequently duplicate normal or extraordinary skill use. 
 
> I honestly don't see what's so wrong with this. Taking a Power and 
> applying limitations to chop off the bits you don't want is a 
> time-honoured mechanism [...] 
 
Because in this case the construct in question was (apparantly) not worked 
backwards from the special effects. 
 
> And despite Rat's continued insistence that "the skill is enough" - that 
> interpretation involves GM fiat. 
 
If a normal person can do it without a power, then an heroic but otherwise 
normal can do it without a power.  A GM that decides otherwise has decided 
to toss out any sense of verisimilitude. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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Date: 25 May 1998 21:30:10 -0400 
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Trevor Barrie writes: 
 
> One could argue that, if the GM feels that it makes sense for incredibly 
> good climbing skill to perform such feats, he or she will use the 
> Extraordinary Skill rules; if they don't, they're probably not going to 
> allow this character concept into their campaign. 
 
A point that I already made. 
 
> I don't think this argument holds for the super-hero genre, though; the 
> Extraordinary Skill rules are fairly clearly inappropriate to that genre, 
> but "super-skill" types are fairly common. 
 
Remember that the construct came out of "Dark Champions", a setting in 
which the characters are on a scale similar to superagents.  Full-blown 
superskills are not really appropriate for that type of setting, but 
extraordinary skills are. 
 
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: The Incredible Shrinking Hero 
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 20:34:46 -0500 
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>> Being inside of solid matter can't be achieved by being small.  Unless 
you 
>> believe the propaganda of the liberal media about electrons, neutrons, 
>> protons, and the whole atom theory mess. 
> 
> Eh?  Explain yourself. 
> 
> 
> 
> -Tim Gilberg 
 
 
It was just a joke. 
 
The point was that I don't think it is okay to allow a character to use FTL 
through a phone line with no additional points spent to circumvent the rule 
against FTL in an atmosphere.  I don't think that special effects should 
give you as many "free points" as I think using FTL inside of an atmosphere 
is worth.  For that matter, I don't think that special effects should rule 
the game as much as I believe some people on this list do.  I have played in 
a game where the whim of the GM allowed villains to stomp on the good guys 
and vice versa based on his opinion of special effects.  I have a firm 
belief that the rules are there to help to insure that the game will be fair 
to all parties involved. 
 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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Date: 25 May 1998 21:34:53 -0400 
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Bob Greenwade writes: 
 
>    Now let's go back to the construct in question: 
>    Clinging, Sideways Move at 1/2 Ground Rate (-1/4), No Neiling or Angles 
> Less than 80 Degrees (-1/4), Cannot Be Used to Resist Knockback (-1/4), 
> Requires a Climbing Roll (-1/2).  (Real Cost: 4 points.) 
>    So does this construct exactly duplicate the Climbing Skill (which costs 
> an additional 3 points anyway), or doesn't it?  [ANSWER YES OR NO.  Explain 
> if you want to, but you will need to use "Yes" or "No" as the *first* word 
> in your answer.] 
 
No.  There are two obvious mechanical differences.  First is movement rate. 
Second is that the Climbing roll has penalties based on the active points 
of the power rather than the difficulty of the climb. 
 
The latter blatantly violates the idea of this being a super Climbing 
skill.  A Climbing skill roll, even a superskill version, should be 
modified by how difficult the surface is to climb; this construct does not. 
The construct is not a super Climbing skill, it is a mostly crippled 
Clinging power. 
 
This is why I (and Vox, who actually coined the phrase) say that it "should 
have been purchased as a skill (-1/2)". 
 
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 20:34:57 -0500 
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>Remnant  writes: 
> 
>> You're welcome.  I am sorry that you didn't choose to explain your 
>> contradiction and instead decided to imply that I took your quote out of 
>> context to make it appear to be a contradiction. 
> 
>You quoted me out of context, thus your perception of a contradiction. 
> 
>> You originally argued that Clinging RSR:  Climbing with a couple of other 
>> limitations duplicated Climbing alone and therefore was an invalid 
>> construct. 
> 
>The claim that it is an invalid construct because the whole point of it is 
>to duplicate Climbing. 
> 
>> Now you argue that Clinging RSR: Climbing with a couple of other 
>> limitations makes someone much more than simply the greatest climber in 
>> the world. 
> 
>Yep.  Climbing does not allow one to stick to a wall; Clinging does. 
>Rather, with Climbing, your natural Strength is used to hang on; with 
>Clinging, the Clinging Strength is used.  Unless you remove that, too, in 
>which case you no longer have the primary use of Clinging (first sentence 
>rule). 
> 
>No contradiction. 
 
You really can't admit when you make a mistake can you.  We might just have 
more in common than I thought.  :-) 
 
Alan 
 
 
 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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Date: 25 May 1998 21:36:18 -0400 
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Trevor Barrie writes: 
 
> But my point is, I don't think it's accurate to refer to Acrobatics as 
> a "CV modifier". 
 
Use of Acrobatics can (or if you prefer, "might") modify CV.  Yes or no? 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: CHAR: Superman (1938) 
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Date: 25 May 1998 21:37:29 -0400 
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Trevor Barrie writes: 
 
> I've thought of that, but I don't see how it can be enough to justify 
> the near-50% cost break of EC, especially when you consider that if the 
> weakness is significant, the character is already going to get a cost break 
> by taking it as a Disadvantage or a Limitation on the EC. 
 
*shrug* 
 
I didn't invent the mechanic, I'm just rationalizing it. :) 
 
> Besides, an EC doesn't require that _all_ of your Powers have a common 
> SFX - just the ones in the EC. 
 
True enough.  But remember, that costs you in other ways (like as in 
character points). 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 18:41:59 -0700 
To: HSR <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Powers lists 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:01 AM 5/25/1998 -0700, Lizard wrote: 
>At 08:31 AM 5/25/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>   Well, just a little while back I suggested using Entangle (or a Power 
>>based on Entangle) to do this, at least for mundane items.  Were you around 
>>for that?  Was this the kind of effect you had in mind? 
> 
>What's wrong with Transform Air-to-Whatever? 
 
   Nothing is really *wrong* with it per se.  Even if my proposal gets into 
Hero5 (which I seriously doubt), a lot of GMs will feel more comfortable 
with still using Transform. 
   However, this application of Entangle (and someone else wanted it to be 
a separate Power, to be called Create Object, a principle that I think has 
merit) would more precisely quantify what you're making.  Are you trying to 
conjure up a steel bowl with 3 DEF, 2 BODY?  OK, that's 26 Active Points, 
and will cost 3 END to do.  Wham, bam, thank you ma'am.  With Transform, 
you figure on a Major Transform, and unless you take 1 1/2d6 you can't 
guarantee success -- and even though that's still 25 Active Points (close 
to the same as Create Object) you don't have the object's DEF very well 
defined (meaning that it's declared by Special Effects rather than by 
mechanics). 
   (BTW the above Create Object cost of 26 Active Points is based on 6 
points per DEF, and 4 points per BODY.  I wanted the overall cost to be 
based on Entangle, since the Power itself is basically a reapplication of 
Entangle, but when I started with 5 each for DEF and BODY, Steve Peterson 
and a few others quite reasonably pointed out that DEF is more useful than 
BODY.  So I based this on the relative cost of rDEF and BODY for a regular 
character, which respectively are 3 and 2.  That quite neatly doubles to 6 
and 4.) 
 
>A problem with Summon for Giant Robot Warriors is that a Summoned creature 
>isn't under your control. Perhaps a follower with Variable SFX and a time 
>limit? 
 
   How about Follower, costs END? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 25 May 1998 21:43:09 -0400 
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Tim R Gilberg writes: 
 
>> Except that with Shrinking your height *DOES* change.  That is what the 
>> power does; everything else is secondary to that. 
 
> 	Bzzt!  Bzzt!  Bzzt!  Bzzt! 
 
> 	This is a Rat-Opinion-Alert.  Any resemblance to anything 
> regarding official hero rules should be considered to be only a 
> coincidence.  Repeat, this is only Rat's opinion. 
 
Oh, puhleeze! 
 
Champions Deluxe, page 83, second column: 
 
	A character with this Size Power can decrease in size, [...] 
Hmmm... 
	For 10 Character points, the character can become x1/2 Height, [...] 
 
Well, that should settle that.  With Shrinking, your height most certainly 
does change.  That is not an opinion, that is straight out of the rulebook. 
It doesn't get any more official than that, Tim. 
 
Note that Shrinking is listed specifically as a "Size Power".  Size Powers 
affect the character's size.  That is what they do.  That is their primary 
purpose.  A Size Power with a limitation "size does not change" is a crock. 
 
That last is an opinion. :) 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
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Date: 25 May 1998 21:44:34 -0400 
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GAZZA  writes: 
 
> This seems a no-brainer to me. I'd simply tell the player to 
> take Desolidification, "only to walk through solid objects" (-1). 
> No Affects Physical World required; I figure if you are basically 
> throwing away the defensive aspects of Desolid, then you aren't 
> really being abusive by not needing Affects Physical World. 
 
You mean for a -1 Limitation I can get all the effects of a +2 advantage on 
all my other powers and abilities? 
 
I'm sorry, but I thought Steve Long was a crock master.  I was wrong.  I 
was *very* wrong. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
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A Kirkland writes: 
 
> No, this is Champions. SFX determine what the Power means. 
> The Mechanic of Shrinking gives +2 DCV, -2 to be percieved, and a  
> 	tendency to get thrown around. 
> The decrease in size is the ( almost unversal ) SFX. 
 
Read your book.  10 points of Shrinking gives, in order, x1/2 Height, x1/8 
mass, +2 DCV (because you are smaller, thus harder to hit), -2 to other's 
PER rolls to spot you (because you are smaller, thus harder to see).  You 
also take +3" of Knockback distance (but not damage). 
 
The mechanics of Shrinking *specifically* "give" you reduced height and 
mass.  This is not a special effect, it is the primary purpose and mechanic 
of the power. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Armor Piercing Variant... 
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Date: 25 May 1998 21:48:25 -0400 
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Bob Greenwade writes: 
 
>    I don't know if your history with the Hero System goes back this far, 
> but in the 3rd and earlier editions, Armor Piercing could be "stacked" so 
> that if you bought Armor Piercing more than once it doubled it further. 
 
Not in 3rd, but maybe in second.  In the 3rd edition, the only way to get 
multiple AP levels was to use Find Weakness.  All multiple levels of AP in 
3rd does is negate multiple levels of Hardened (just like 4th edition). 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Armor Piercing Variant... 
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Bob Greenwade writes: 
 
>> Hmmm... my gut reaction is to make the +1 level a div by 3 instead of div 
>> by 4.  Other than that, I think it is workable. 
 
>    Well, there is the problem of what to do with multiple purchases of 
> Hardened. 
 
You get what you pay for.  Highest cost AP negates first layer of Hardened, 
working back to least cost AP. 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 19:27:27 -0700 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> Trevor Barrie writes: 
>  
> >> I am twitchy about this, considering that Acrobatics already can affect 
> >> CV. 
>  
> > Not in Fourth Edition, it can't. The best it can do is provide a 
> > justification for a Surprise Maneuver bonus. 
>  
> Which part of "Acrobatics already can affect CV" does this contradict? 
 
	IIRC, early acrobatics always gave a DCV bonus when used.  With the  
current version, only if its particulaly specky and the GM is feeling kind does  
acrobatics give a bonus.  However, I believe from the context of your orignal  
post that you may not have been saying always, either. 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 19:33:06 -0700 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Hey, that hero looks familiar 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
GAZZA wrote: 
>  
> > > I've noticed from this thread that "healer" types are very common. 
> > 
> > I wouldn't say that... I've only noticed a couple of people saying 
> > that they found them common. I've never seen anything resembling a 
> > "healer" in a superhero game myself. 
>  
> I agree. In the course of all my campaigns, I've had exactly 
> ONE healer character. It was an NPC (named Empath - so shoot me, 
> it's a cool name, if not particularly original), and he was one 
> of the first to buy it during the Great Hero Hunt (ala the 
> GAZZA version, since I was unable to locate the 'official' version). 
>  
> OTOH, Regeneration is a particularly common power IMC. At one 
> time, 3 out of 10 PCs had it. 
 
	Maybe the group I am with, (and its pretty widespread), is warped or  
something.  We have almost never failed to have at least one person who has the  
capacity to do SOME sort of healing on others. 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 19:40:26 -0700 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Trevor Barrie wrote: 
> > Do you really think so? When I decided to start up a new 
> > fantasy campaign about 18 months ago, I used D&D because it 
> > was (IMHO) the simplest to learn (and I had a couple of new 
> > players to break in). 
>  
> IMO, Ars Magica is the best system available for the fantasy genre. 
 
	While it may be the best (disputable), it is certainly complex enough to  
even cause Hero fans to baulk.  No so much the set spells, but the spontanious  
magic that is such a big and intergral part of the system.  However, once people  
become familiar with them it works very well. 
 
> > To return to the topic, though - the only really complex part 
> > of Hero is character creation. 
>  
> Which isn't a major concern, since you only need to create a character 
> once per campaign. 
 
	And in my opinion, one of the best parts.  I get a great deal of  
enjoyment out of getting into the design of characters.  It enables you to get a  
very good handle on the personality and motives of a character, somethnig which  
is sadly lacking in ADaD. 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 21:57:20 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>Basically no. IMO Hero is NOT a system for the beginning GM; it is one 
>for the GM who wants more, and is willing to put more effort into his 
>work, because you create everything from scratch. 
>qts 
 
That is what it is now.  I agree totally.  If it ever wants to outgrow its 
complex reputation and attract a wide following, then it needs to provide 
something for the GM who isn't quite ready for "scratch."   
 
I'd like to see it happen for the (mostly) selfish reason that we would 
have at least 5 GMs in our group, instead of just 2 :-) 
 
The questions are:  Can it?  And if it can, how? 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 23:32:00 -0400 
To: HSR <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Create Object (was Re: Powers lists) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 06:41 PM 5/25/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   (BTW the above Create Object cost of 26 Active Points is based on 6 
>points per DEF, and 4 points per BODY.  I wanted the overall cost to be 
>based on Entangle, since the Power itself is basically a reapplication of 
>Entangle, but when I started with 5 each for DEF and BODY, Steve Peterson 
>and a few others quite reasonably pointed out that DEF is more useful than 
>BODY.  So I based this on the relative cost of rDEF and BODY for a regular 
>character, which respectively are 3 and 2.  That quite neatly doubles to 6 
>and 4.) 
 
Not this again.  I think calling it a separate power would make more sense. 
 That way you could get rid of the die rolls, it would not be associated 
with Entangle, and you could make up advantages/limitation for working 
material as opposed to raw material.  Creating a lump of steel is generally 
useless.  Creating a mundane sword is not.  And even if you do not want 
your players creating swords and stick of steel makes a pretty good club if 
not a sword. 
 
  Joe 
(It's funny.  I objected to this the first time around.  Somehow you've 
explained it better this time, Bob.  Maybe it was the rDEF vs. BODY 
explanation.) 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: VPP and Magic  
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 22:47:34 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>My solution to the active cost problem was to double the active cost limit 
>of the VPP, i.e. a magic-user with a 30 point pool can cast 60 active 
point 
>spells.  To simulate the flavor of the GURPS Magic system, the control 
cost 
>is purchased with 0 phase action to change (+1), No skill roll required to 
>change (+1), and Only learned spells (-1), so that a 30 pt VPP + control 
>cost = 52 points.  Magic-users must also pay a 1 pt "spell familitary" for 
>each spell they know.  I haven't actually played a game with this system 
>yet (even though I've designed over 350 spells and magic items), and I'm a 
>little concerned about whether this system gives magic-users too much 
power 
>- I'm hoping that insisting on Requires a Skill Roll for each spell and 
>carefully screening player-designed spells will keep magic-users from 
>dominating the campaign.  Do you have any problems with magic-users being 
>too powerful?  Also, does the size of the VPP in your system still impose 
>limitations on how many Real points in spells a mage can have running? 
 
Easy question first:  Yes, the VPP constrains Real points.  With active 
cost controlled separately, that is all it really does.  I distinguish 
between wizard pools and priest pools.  Theoretically, a character could 
have both, but so far no one has wanted to expend the vast points for the 
two VPPs--especially since a lot of spells overlap. 
 
Hard question, the one on balance:  Well I think it's balanced for my 
campaign.  We've been using this system for 5+ years, and we've had about a 
equal number of spell casters and non-spell casters.  No one seems to have 
a bias strictly on point.  (Some just do not want to play spell casters.)  
They both seem about equally effective.  My original version of this system 
came out to about the same points as what I think you are planning to use, 
but it penalized the spell casters too much!  That is because I required a 
magic skill and a KS for every "sphere" of magic.  That meant it required 
at least 5 points (3 for magic skill, 2 for KS) to have any decent use of a 
sphere.  The KS controlled gaining access to spells (in a way too 
complicated to explain here).  The magic skill worked in the usual manner.  
Between active limit and skills, the typical mage needed on average 40% of 
his points in magic outside the pool.  This was way too much compared to 
the warrior and rogue skills. 
 
Now I just have magic roll for each sphere.  All spells have a difficulty 
factor to learn.  It has two parts.  The first is GM determined (and gives 
no points), based on whether the spell is Very Common +4, Common +1, 
Uncommon -2, Rare -5, Very Rare -8.  I decide which level based on whether 
the spell is widespread AND how useful it is.  (In short, this is just my 
way of somewhat controlling spell availability without pure GM fiat.  Sort 
of an "impure" GM fiat.)  Modifying this is a difficulty factor of -0 to 
-4, which replaces the "X point in college" limitation and gives -0 to -1 
limitation on the spell.  Characters can only roll for spells they have in 
their possesion, through scrolls, books, schools and the like.  
Furthermore, they can only roll once per increase in magic skill, or when 
they find some new detailed information on that spell of sphere.  In 
practice, a character gradually replaces less effective versions of spells 
with better ones as they find them. 
 
However, I should also point out that all skills in my house rules are on 
an escalating cost--something like GURPs, but adapted for Hero.  So low 
level skills are incredibly cheap, but high level skills are dreadfully 
expensive.  This applies to maneuvers also.  So the fighting characters 
have their own "pool" to spend points in.  And a mage can't just learn 
defensive strike for 5 points.  (A really good single maneuver would cost 
about 10 to 12 points.)  I got the maneuver idea from the Sengoku web site 
from the herogames related links.   
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 23:53:05 -0400 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 09:26 PM 5/25/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>If a normal person can do it without a power, then an heroic but otherwise 
>normal can do it without a power.  A GM that decides otherwise has decided 
>to toss out any sense of verisimilitude. 
 
Rat, I think you are attaching to much meaning to the word "power."  I know 
you'll correct me if I'm wrong :-), but just because it is listed in the 
Powers section fo the rule book (and therefore is called a power in HERO 
vernacular) does not mean that normal people (i.e. non-heroes) cannot use 
it.  I see no reason why a GM could not state that all phenominal 
(non-heroic) Climbers in his campaign have Clinging with RSR: Climbing. 
 
  Joe 
 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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Remnant  writes: 
 
>> No contradiction. 
 
> You really can't admit when you make a mistake can you. 
 
Rather than be insulting, try showing me where the contradiction is. 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 00:02:28 -0400 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net&> 
        Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 09:43 PM 5/25/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Well, that should settle that.  With Shrinking, your height most certainly 
>does change.  That is not an opinion, that is straight out of the rulebook. 
>It doesn't get any more official than that, Tim. 
> 
>Note that Shrinking is listed specifically as a "Size Power".  Size Powers 
>affect the character's size.  That is what they do.  That is their primary 
>purpose.  A Size Power with a limitation "size does not change" is a crock. 
> 
>That last is an opinion. :) 
 
Then I guess you also won't like Invisibility, no fringe, visible power 
effects (looks just like character).  Very convenient, everyone is 1/2 OCV 
to hit you unless they have some other targetting sense and you are nearly 
immune to missile attacks. 
 
"He looks like he's standing right there but everytime I think I have a 
bead on him he disappears."   
 
I used this once for a displacer beast type effect.  It went over on the 
party just as well as the Indirect (+3/4) attack from the invisible villain 
whose attacks came from images of a different looking villain.  :-) 
  Joe 
 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 23:07:48 -0500 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-3,5,7-16 
From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David W Toomey) 
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On Tue, 26 May 1998 00:02:28 -0400 Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
writes: 
>Then I guess you also won't like Invisibility, no fringe, visible power 
>effects (looks just like character).  Very convenient, everyone is 1/2 
OCV 
>to hit you unless they have some other targetting sense and you are 
nearly 
>immune to missile attacks. 
 
 
Why not 6 Levels DCV, costs End (30 AP, 20 RP, 3 End)? Same effect, 
cheaper, and does not require drastic warping of a power? 
 
 
David W Toomey 
dwtoomey@juno.com 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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Joe Mucchiello writes: 
 
> Rat, I think you are attaching to much meaning to the word "power."  I 
> know you'll correct me if I'm wrong :-), 
 
Okay, you are wrong.  Champions Deluxe, page 51: 
 
	"Powers are abilities far beyond those of mortal men.... 
 
Same page, several paragraphs down: 
 
	"Not all characters will have powers.  A modern spy or a fantasy 
	swordsman can be built by buying only Characteristics, Skills, and 
	Talents. 
 
The way I read that, if heroic characters generally will not have any 
Powers, normal people definitely will not.  Yet some of these normal people 
manage to accomplish exactly what the Clinging construct is intended to 
accomplish.  They do not do it with Powers, because they do not have them. 
They do it with nothing more than a good Climbing skill and a better than 
average Strength. 
 
This is not even "extraordinary" skill use.  Extraordinary skill use is 
something like using Breakfall to land on your feet, unharmed, after 
falling out of an airplane -- James Bond did it in the opening bit of 
"Moonraker". 
 
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                                    \ exposure to Happy Fun Ball. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Create Object (was Re: Powers lists) 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Joe Mucchiello writes: 
 
> Not this again.  I think calling it a separate power would make more sense. 
 
Creation of immediately useful things should be accomplished with Powers 
that simulate the thing being created.  To wit, if you create a sword, the 
Power is Killing Attack. 
 
Creation of solid things that are not so immediately useful, like a large 
lump of steel, can be done with Entangle.  The base points of Entangle 
determines DEF, which determines the toughness of the material you can 
create -- you cannot create reinforced concrete (DEF 8) with a 30-point 
Entangle (DEF 3).  The ammount of BODY rolled determines the quantity of 
the material (factored by any AoE effect, normally 1").  A sheet of 
whatever material will have DEF equal to the DEF of the Entangle, and a 
thickness based on the BODY rolled (you can use the Wall Body table for a 
guide). 
 
By the by, a 6 DEF/7 BODY mass of steel made this way would have a volume 
of 2m by 2m by 32mm (2 meters = 1", and 7 BODY worth of metal wall is 32mm 
thick).  Fold it up a bit and you get a block 12.8cm on a side. 
 
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Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
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From: Firelynx16 <Firelynx16@aol.com> 
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 00:56:13 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
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>   
>  > In a television, your LoS goes from the attacker's eyes to the tv screen, 
> not 
>  > the target... that's the difference.  It's the exact same thing as 
looking  
> at 
>  > a snapshot of your intended target.  And I wouldn't imagine there are too 
>  > many GMs out there that would allow someone to target an opponent by  
> staring 
>  > at a Polaroid (tm) of them... 
>   
>  Hmmm. You're right, that makes sense. I'm still not sure that the mirror 
>  case is different, though; you're still looking at an image of the target 
>  rather than the real thing, even if said image is being generated more 
>  directly. 
>   
 
It's a judgement call, I guess.  One could argue that it's an image, not the 
real target.  Another could argue that the mirror only changes the path of the 
light that allows for sight of the target, keeping the LoS true. (Even though 
the image is reversed by the mirror).  I'm not sure which works better. 
 
Later, 
'Lynx 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 00:59:05 -0500 
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>It's a judgement call, I guess.  One could argue that it's an image, not 
the 
>real target.  Another could argue that the mirror only changes the path of 
the 
>light that allows for sight of the target, keeping the LoS true. (Even 
though 
>the image is reversed by the mirror).  I'm not sure which works better. 
 
>Later, 
>'Lynx 
 
I always thought the only reason for the LoS bit for mental powers was so 
the mentalist could hit the correct brain.  Thus the "species" suggestion 
on just what constitutes adequate "sight."  Since Mind Scan gets a bigger 
penalty based on the area to scan, I would say that LoS to the image of the 
target is what is required to get contact without Mind Scan.  But the brain 
has to be in the same spot as the image.  Therefore, mirrors work, although 
with a possible penalty.  Video might help Mind Scan, but not other mental 
powers.  Snapshots would only help if the mentalist trying the Mind Scan 
did not already know the species.  Just my opinion. 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Based on Con for Entangle 
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 23:06:01 -0700 
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> From: Mad Hamish 
> 
> At 03:28 PM 5/24/98, qts wrote: 
> > 
> >Hmm... In typing the above I accidentally mistyped 'Con' as 'Com'. I 
> >wonder what the SFX of a Com based/defended Entangle would be? 
> >qts 
> > 
> 
> A crisis of self image? 
> self loathing? 
> 
 
How about a spell which enchants you by offering to make you fantastically 
beautiful/handsome? The less difference there is between you and ultimate, idealized you, 
the less effect it has. 
 
Filksinger 
 
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Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Poll: Champions Dialogues #1 
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 23:06:09 -0700 
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> From: GAZZA 
> 
<snip> 
> 
> I'm leery of allowing this even in the werewolf case, BTW - 
> IMHO, taking a Vulnerability is a better way to simulate it. 
> And silver isn't that UNcommon, either. 
 
It is in attacks, but not in the general world. That is why it is worth more for a 
werewolf, because a person with such a vulnerability would normally encounter silver only 
in attacks, thus quite rarely, but the werewolf will encounter it whenever the target can 
get his hands on silver, which would be much more common. 
 
Filksinger 
 
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Armor Piercing Variant... 
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 23:06:36 -0700 
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> From: Bob Greenwade 
> 
<snip> 
>    Now that I think about it like this (and I really hadn't before now), 
> the main benefit of having Armor Piercing on an attack isn't to do damage 
> against targets with high defenses.  The real benefit is having an attack 
> that won't turn agents and normals into ground beef (since the base damage 
> is reduced) while still being able to do *something* against targets with 
> high defenses. 
 
Alternately, the real benefit could be against targets that take no Stun, such as 
vehicles, robots, or walls. This, of course, also partially negates your suggestion, as 
the attack will tend to do significant boty to normals and agents. 
 
Filksinger 
 
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From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 23:06:39 -0700 
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> From: Trevor Barrie 
> 
> 
<snip> 
> I can see SFX reasons for not allowing it (why exactly does a mentalist 
> need "line of sight", anyway?), but the play balance arguments aren't 
> very convincing IMODO. 
> 
 
Well, I assume that you cannot influence someone's mind unless you know _exactly_ where 
they are, as default. Thus, binoculars would work, and so would a mirror (with possible 
penalties), but television cannot be properly used for a targeting sense. 
 
Look at it this way. Assume you had a weapon that could penetrate any barrier, had 
unlimited range, and perfect precision in aiming. You could use Telescopic Vision to aim 
it; that's a scope. You could use a mirror to aim it, though it might be difficult. 
However, I do not believe that you could use the television image of the President on TV 
to aim the weapon. A local closed-captioned system, maybe with significant penalties, but 
not TV. 
 
Filksinger 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 00:21:45 -0600 
From: A Kirkland <ajk117@mail.usask.ca> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
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At 21:47 98/05/25 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>A Kirkland writes: 
> 
>> No, this is Champions. SFX determine what the Power means. 
>> The Mechanic of Shrinking gives +2 DCV, -2 to be percieved, and a  
>> 	tendency to get thrown around. 
>> The decrease in size is the ( almost unversal ) SFX. 
> 
>Read your book.  10 points of Shrinking gives, in order, x1/2 Height, x1/8 
>mass, +2 DCV (because you are smaller, thus harder to hit), -2 to other's 
>PER rolls to spot you (because you are smaller, thus harder to see).  You 
>also take +3" of Knockback distance (but not damage). 
> 
 
... except that "because you are __" is the SFX.  
 
>The mechanics of Shrinking *specifically* "give" you reduced height and 
>mass.  This is not a special effect, it is the primary purpose and mechanic 
>of the power. 
> 
 
The extension of Shrinking SFX to a semi-Desolid state is no more of 
a stretch than: 
	 using Tracking Scent to simulate some other means 
	a no range EB 
		Note the decription states you can use the power to attack at range. 
		Using your literalism, it does not state it can be used in melee, 
		although it is clear the designers meant it to. 
 
Futher, since you are so fond of the book, take a look at page 52. 
"The SFX of a Power define exactly how the power works, what the power 
looks like 
[ particularly relevant ], and any other incidental effects associated with 
the Power's use.	 
Sometimes minor advantages [ like retaining the reach of a person of normal 
height ] 
and disavantages [ like the inability to use cover as well ] are attached 
to the Power due to its SFX." 
 
And look at p53 under "Creative Use Of Powers". 
 
A Kirkland 
ajk117@mail.usask.ca 
 
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogues #1 
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 01:27:56 -0500 
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>   Typically (and please note that I'm expressing what my observation has 
>been from my own play, direct email discussions with other GMs, and past 
>remarks on this list), Armor is treated as Visible to Sight at all times, 
>and to Touch and Sound when it encounters an attack. 
 
 
I am not sure of the official ruling under 4th ed, our rule is that if it 
normally uses END it has to have a visible SFX.  If it doesn't use END 
normally it doesn't have to have a visible SFX.  I think this is a hold over 
from a previous edition of Champs.  We started playing with 1st ed and we 
get a little confused at times.  So we allow the visible FX 
limitation on Armor. 
 
Alan 
 
 
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 01:28:04 -0500 
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>Rather than be insulting, try showing me where the contradiction is. 
 
I am sorry if I insulted you.  I applied the same statement to myself.  Of 
course, you quoted only what applied to you.  I feel that I was being 
accurately descriptive based on my following of your posts on this list.  I 
stand behind my statement about you.  I can't claim that your posts to this 
list are indicative of you in person.  But this is not the first time that 
you have argued against nearly everyone on the list and refused to admit 
that you are simply wrong.  I still remember your confusion over the meaning 
of the word "or." 
 
 
I quoted to you and the list your statements that were contradictory.  You 
chose to claim that I was quoting you out of context.  You are the one that 
shouted that the two constructs were the same and now you argue that they 
are different, and that it is just not appropriate to use the Clinging RSR: 
Climbing construct. 
 
I can accept that you simply changed your mind.  But you won't admit it. 
Either admit it or explain what you meant by: 
 
>THE LIMITATIONS ON THIS INSTANCE OF CLINGING MAKE IT WORK JUST LIKE 
CLIMBING!!!!! 
 
You typed it, did you mean they work the same or did you not?  That is a 
simple yes or no question.  Can you answer it? 
 
Enquiring minds want to know. 
 
If I really quoted you out of context, which I don't believe I did, and if I 
did it was not intentional, please quote yourself in context. 
 
Alan 
 
 
 
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 01:28:57 -0500 
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>Then I guess you also won't like Invisibility, no fringe, visible power 
>effects (looks just like character).  Very convenient, everyone is 1/2 OCV 
>to hit you unless they have some other targetting sense and you are nearly 
>immune to missile attacks. 
> 
>"He looks like he's standing right there but everytime I think I have a 
>bead on him he disappears." 
> 
>I used this once for a displacer beast type effect.  It went over on the 
>party just as well as the Indirect (+3/4) attack from the invisible villain 
>whose attacks came from images of a different looking villain.  :-) 
>  Joe 
 
I don't about anyone else but in my game we rule that any invisible 
character using a visble power is able to be detected.  The book states that 
only visible attacks make the invisible character detectable.  I don't think 
it should apply only to visible attacks. 
 
Even if your group doesn't make that same ruling as it probably isn't 
strictly by the book, Indirect attacks are still visible and would make the 
target able to be attacked at only a -1 OCV. 
 
Why bother with this anyway.  Invisibility is to make you invisible.  If you 
want 
a character to be harder to hit, that should be bought as plusses to DCV 
with whatever SFX you desire including a displacer beast effect. 
 
Alan 
 
 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 01:15:28 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Police Portrayal in Campaigns/ Good and Bad cops 
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Tim R. Gilberg wrote: 
>  
>         How does everyone here portray the police in your campigns, be 
> they modern realistic, futuristic, old west, or whatever? 
 
It depends on the type of police.  I try, as always, for verisimilitude,  
according to my own view of what that is.  Recall that, in my campaign,  
super-powers are not publicly acknowledged to exist.  There are no laws,  
policies or precedents to cover them.  As such, there are people who  
committed crimed under the influence of Mind Control who are in prison  
awaiting trial for those crimes. 
 
Small-town police generally know their territory well, but may be out of  
their league when major crimes come to town, and are certainly not up to  
dealing with powers they don't understand.  Most of them are guilty of  
accepting gratuities: free haircuts or an occasional free meal at the  
local diner.  While this is illegal, I see it as on the level of getting  
Hero-List on the company email.  (Unless the company is in the  
game-designing business, of course, Mark!)  ;-)  If asked to cooperate by  
state or federal authorities (one PC is an FBI agent) they may be  
resentful of the intrusion, but they will comply. 
 
Large-City police are a bit better organized and prepared in general,  
but, very few are far-seeing geniuses.  Of course, very few criminals  
have given up a promising career as rocket scientists, so determination  
and patience are generally more useful. 
 
There are fewer opportunities for the small-time gratuities, and they are  
better watched.   
 
FBI, CIA and suchlike are an enigma to the players, largely because they  
are engaged in activities to which the PCs are not privy.  The players  
and the PCs are both divided on how much of this secrecy is sinister, and  
how much actually is a good idea.  Since the PCs have been careful not to  
reveal themselves publicly, they are hardly in a position to criticize  
secrecy qua secrecy. 
 
It seems that, no matter how I try to portray the police, I am attacked  
by one or more players as portraying them "unrealistically".   On the  
other hand, one of the PCs is an FBI agent (Agent Fox), and another is a  
former NYPD officer who was shot in the head and disabled before his  
powers kicked in. 
 
I have one player, Tim, who would consider Mr. Gilberg practically an  
apologist for the police.  This guy simply regards a non-corrupt police  
officer as a logical impossibility.  In fact, he has expressed the  
opinion that all large police departments routinely engage in burglary,  
robbery and murder for hire.  Hmmm...I wonder if there is something about  
the name, Tim? 
 
Then again, we live near Philadelphia, home of Frank Rizzo, the MOVE  
fiasco, and where 1,200 convictions were recently reviewed because the  
officers in question pled guilty to perjury, suborning perjury and  
fabrication of evidence, as well as extortion and robbery.  This is also  
the town where the President Judge ruled that it is *not* improper for a  
sitting judge to receive cash contributions to his campaign fund in an  
ex-parte meeting with a defendant in a case currently before him. 
 
Dang!  There are some scenario ideas in there! 
 
I have another player who is intolerant of any police officer who does  
not immediately believe the PCs, regardless of how implausible their  
story.  Curiously, this person considers herself a superlative  
role-player, yet she refuses to try the simple exercise of looking at the  
situation from the officer's perspective. 
 
All of my players expect bumbling cops, so I give them some as comic  
relief.  For example, Jade Cobra (a martial artist) is the only  
widely-publicized PC.  According to press reports, he has gotten mixed up  
in a Tong war, seemed to be somehow involved in an attack on a destroyer  
in New York Harbor, was spotted at a burning house where several FBI  
agents were shot, and so on.  Naturally, the police are nervous when he  
shows up.  A not infrequent "bit" is to have some rookie cop nervously  
shoot at Jade Cobra, only to be hauled up short by a superior for  
improper discharge of his weapon. 
 
Some examples of police encounters that my players have objected to as  
implausible.  I would be interested in any reaction, especially from  
those with real-world law enforcement experience. 
 
==================================================================== 
 
Case #1: 
There have been rumors of a child molester in town, who breaks into  
houses at night.  Tanith (PC), Wiccan Priestess, has reason to believe  
that an attempt was made at her house tonight, so she enlists the help of  
John Doe (PC), Private Investigator, and Nightshade (PC), a Lamont  
Cranston type, to help track this guy down.  When they spot an open  
window in a house, they investigate and find it empty, so they call the  
police anonymously. 
 
About 4AM, a one-man patrol car, on the lookout for suspicious  
characters, passes John Doe, who wears a shoulder holster, shining his  
flashlight along the curb and over the lawn.  The officer, spots the  
weapon, stops the car, and draws his service 9mm, and orders John Doe to  
raise his hands above his head, then to remove the gun with his off-hand  
and place it on the hood of the car and move away.  He then cuffs John  
Doe and checks his bona fide.  Unfortunately, the office was a member of  
a right-wing fundamentalist christian group that is a mild Hunted for  
Tanith, so he used this as an excuse to search Tanith's house: a search  
to which Tanith consented rather than raise a ruckus. 
 
I felt that the officer's behavior on spotting an armed stranger at 4AM  
in the area where a break-in has been reported was a fair approximation  
of procedure.  When this stranger named as a bona fide a person who lived  
nearby, he was within his rights to request backup and a search of the  
house.  Of course, his personal feelings were a factor, but from his  
superior's point of view, there was no impropriety. 
 
One player felt that there was no cause to stop John Doe at all.  Another  
felt that it was justified, but that cuffing him and removing his weapon  
was completely absurd.  The third (who played John Doe) felt that  
everything was fine, up to a cursory search of Tanith's house, but that a  
full search with dogs was excessive; however, Tanith *did* consent. 
 
Of course, there was nothing improper to find. 
 
================================================================ 
 
Case #2: 
 
A young, blonde, woman was found dead in a park, transfixed by a quarrel.  
She had recently argued with her boyfriend, a world-class archer, who had  
been trained in crossbow during a stint in the military.  Her roommate  
was the niece of the head of a Tong, and the two could be mistaken at  
night. 
 
The local police arrested the boyfriend, who had no alibi for the time of  
death.  The FBI was concerned that the actual target may have been the  
roommate, but the police insisted on booking the boyfriend, who hired  
John Doe to help prove his innocence. 
 
The next day, shortly after the boyfriend had been released on bond, a  
blonde CPA was murdered in a nearby town, transfixed with an antique  
broadsword.  Her border, also a young blonde, was missing.  The boyfriend  
of the first woman had no alibi for the time of death, and had been seen  
in the vicinity.  He was arrested for the second murder, and held without  
bond.  The FBI remained convinced that the real target of the first  
murder was the niece, and that the second murder was a coincidence. 
 
Several players felt that the police and FBI were being obtuse not to see  
that this was a serial killer that had nothing to do with the boyfriend.  
I felt that the local police could not simply ignore the boyfriend, and  
were acting reasonably, if not brilliantly. 
 
=================================================================== 
Case #3: 
 
Tracking the serial killer, the PCs found that there were a number of  
young, blonde women who had died violent or mysterious deaths after  
visiting the science museum, and that the manner of the deaths was  
suggestive of a sign of the Zodiac, but not the sign of the victim.   
Doing some web-surfing, the PCs found that the planetarium had a program,  
"What's your REAL Sign?"  This program attempted to teach about the  
Procession of the Equinoxes and to debunk Astrology at the same time.   
Visitors were invited to enter their birth dates, and received a printout  
showing their sign according to judicial astrology, as well as the actual  
zodiacal constellation that was in the east when they were born.   
Naturally, the PCs concluded that this was important, and went there to  
check the database. 
 
The keeper of the database refused to give them the data, citing museum  
policy.  One of the PCs became frustrated, and compelled the man at  
gunpoint.  Unfortunately, he failed to notice the webcam.  After fleeing  
the scene, the database keeper called the police, and sent them a copy of  
the digitized picture. 
 
I use actual locations in my campaign -- makes maps much easier -- and  
the actual museum in question is: six blocks from City Hall, four blocks  
from the nearest precinct substation, three blocks from the Transit  
Police Station, and there is a Park Police station in the same building.  
 Moreover, the location is in the Center City District, which receives  
increased police patrols.  I ruled that there would be some police  
presence within two minutes of a 911 call.  The PCs barely escaped using  
their super-disguise skills and shapeshifting. 
 
Tanith created an illusion of a gunman pointing a weapon at the police  
and then running the other way, and an officer shot at the illusion.   
Some players thought that this aptly demonstrated what idiots and  
incompetents the police were, since they should not shoot if someone is  
merely aiming a weapon at them and has not yet shot. 
 
Other players complained that there was no way that police would arrive  
in less than fifteen minutes to such a call.  Tim proclaimed that, unless  
there was a doughnut shop within two blocks, that any response in less  
than ten minutes would be impossible, and even then, a response in only  
two minutes was absurd.  In fact, there are two doughnut shops within  
that radius, so I was able to shut him up, for a while. 
 
When the police published the digital photograph and asked for the help  
of the public in identifying the gunman, the player whose character  
pulled the gun became annoyed and claimed that no police department would  
have the slightest idea of what to do with a digital photograph.  He  
further claimed that, if the incident occured at noon, it could not  
possibly make the evening news, and that having the local news radio  
station cover the event and sound an alert was absurd. 
 
BTW, the player who got the information at gunpoint felt that it was  
unfair for his real face to have been photographed and that, since there  
was no shot fired, that there was no reason for him to be wanted by the  
police.  Eventually, he left the campaign. 
 
====================================================================== 
Case #4: 
 
Jade Cobra was discovered attempting to enter Building #18, CIA HQ,  
Langley VA.  This building is in a secure part of the campus, requiring  
one to pass a double fence, get past guarded checkpoints or violate  
restricted airspace to get there.  Jade Cobra was taken under escort to  
an interview room. while a specially-trained unit was summoned.  When the  
interview failed to satisfy the interviewer that JC had valid authority  
to be there, nor that there was any reason to overlook the security  
breach, an agent of the FBI formally arrested Jade Cobra on charges of  
trespassing on a secure installation, and suspicion of Espionage, and the  
Marines attempted to take JC into custody. 
 
Jade Cobra, who is based on Kung Fu, the Legend Continues, attempted to  
escape by teleporting out of the building, but was stopped by a  
reinforced (hardened) roof.  He managed to escape, but by then the other  
PCs had arrived.  The Marines chased them in their hovertank, whereupon  
the PCs attacked the tank and a battle ensued.  The PCs managed to  
knockout most of the Marines and destroy their hovertank.  They saved the  
team leader from dying in a hovertank just before it exploded.  The PCs  
then attempted to engage in a dialogue with the team leader, trying to  
"bring him to his senses," and make him realize that there was no reason  
to be attacking the PCs.  The leader used the conversation to stall the  
PCs, and give his team time to recover for another assault. 
 
The PCs knocked out the Marines again, though not without taking some  
lumps.  They then took an unconscious Marine up in the air, and away to  
destination unknown.  The team leader advised them not to do this, and  
asked them, "Why have you declared war on the United States?"  The PCs  
thought this totally absurd, and saw nothing objectionable in their  
conduct. 
 
The Marine who was being carried away, convinced that enemies of the  
United States were about to steal valuable secret technology, hit the  
self-destruct on his suit.  Unfortunately, this killed him and almost  
killed the PC carrying him.  But, he was a maRINE! (Sir!  Yes, Sir!) 
 
The Players felt that this conduct on the part of the government was  
completely unreasonable, and proves that there is a massive conspiracy,  
involving the whole of the CIA, that needs to be exposed.  While I can  
neither confirm nor deny the conclusion, and while the PCs are entitled  
to their in-character opinion, the Players should recognize that the FBI  
agent had complete authority to arrest Jade Cobra, and that forcibly  
resisting arrest is a criminal offense.  The Players mostly responded  
derisively. 
 
 
==================================================================== 
Case #5: 
 
The incident in Langley was covered up as a military plane crash.  The  
PCs sent an anonymous letter to the DCI, attempting to straighten out the  
"Little misunderstanding in Langley," and specifying contact via the want  
ads of the Wall Street Journal, to include specific text and a number to  
call. 
 
The ad appeared, and the PCs made their call from a payphone in the  
middle of nowhere.  They fully expected to be descended upon in five or  
ten minutes by the Marines in full force.  When no one arrived, they  
made derisive out-of-character remarks about the incompetence of the  
people they were dealing with. 
 
The call took about forty minutes (actual time of the role-played  
conversation, less rules distractions).  The PCs flamed the phone to  
destroy any prints or DNA and then left the area in their own cars  
(registered under their Secret IDs).  On the way out, they noticed a  
Telephone Company truck that was doing some work by the road.   
Afterwards, the truck left and went directly to the payphone, which the  
men examined in great detail, dusting the phone and scouring the ground  
for footprints and other evidence. 
 
One player hooted that learning what brand of sneaker one wears is of no  
value.  Another wondered why the government was wasting its time, since  
there was obviously no way they were competent enough to track down the  
PCs.  We'll see. 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 07:41:33 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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All right, how would one model the power where the PC makes themselves 
lighter? 
 
In a game that is beginning locally, one of the players is considering a 
gravity manipulation character.  One of his possible powers is 'density 
decrease', where he reduced his weight.  He was considering Shrinking 
"Does not reduce height", so he could get the reduced weight, extra KB, 
and so on, without getting any shorter.  How else can you buy this effect 
without using Shrinking? 
 
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From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 12:33:32 GMT 
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On Mon, 25 May 1998 15:35:33 -0300 (ADT), you wrote: 
 
>You don't agree that said line is unhelpful, then? 
 
No. I can tell who said what by looking at the procession of names on 
the mailing list. 
 
>> In your campaign, then, mentalists can mind control anyone seen on 
>> television? Read their minds? Plant memories and have them see 
>> illusions from the safety of their own homes? 
> 
>It hasn't really come up, but in theory, sure. 
> 
>> The US' current system of government would rapidly fall apart in such 
>> a situation, or get mentalists deported from the country just as fast. 
> 
>Who cares? I'm not an American.:) 
 
Substitute any country's government into the above statement, then. 
They are all vulnerable. Groups like Eurostar would love to have 
mental powers work like that. 
 
>How hard is it to become part of the audience for a public debate? 
 
Mental powers have to be visible unless the invisible power advantage 
is purchased. The mentalist would be putting himself at risk, which 
would not exist if he used a camera image to attack from. 
 
>I'm inclined to think it's fairly easy to get within binocular range 
>of any public figure, if you're willing to expend the time. 
 
That's why important government officials have "official" mentalists 
looking out for people like that in my campaign. Unofficially, of 
course. NPC's with useful powers like danger sense, teleportation and 
force wall help out too, without being in costume to draw attention to 
themselves. None of this would help if the attacker used a TV screen 
to launch his attack from across the continent, though. 
 
> Allowing 
>Mental Powers via TV may help out the fat, lazy mentalists, but I don't 
>see how it would make that much of a difference in the overall balance 
>of power. 
 
If you refuse to realize the chaos it would create among government 
officials, I guess that's where we will have to end this, then. 
 
>I can see SFX reasons for not allowing it (why exactly does a mentalist 
>need "line of sight", anyway?), but the play balance arguments aren't 
>very convincing IMODO. 
 
It is very unbalancing. What other type of character can use such an 
advantage? Mentalists could just sit in the HQ building and let the 
rest of the group wear little cameras and attack targets with 
impunity. Note this would work for both sides. 
 
John Lansford 
 
 
http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/ 
 
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Create Object (was Re: Powers lists) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 08:44:53 -0400 (EDT) 
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> Joe Mucchiello writes:  
> > Not this again.  I think calling it a separate power would make more sense.  
>   
> Creation of immediately useful things should be accomplished with Powers  
> that simulate the thing being created.  To wit, if you create a sword, the  
> Power is Killing Attack.  
 
But the object is left lying around.  Wouldn't you have to use the Usable 
By Others Permanent Effects option in HA1 in order to give someone else 
the sword?  Thus the Power is HKA, UBO. 
 
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 09:01:06 -0400 (EDT) 
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> On Tue, 26 May 1998 00:02:28 -0400 Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net>  
> writes:  
> >Then I guess you also won't like Invisibility, no fringe, visible power  
> >effects (looks just like character).  Very convenient, everyone is 1/2  
> OCV  
> >to hit you unless they have some other targetting sense and you are  
> nearly  
> >immune to missile attacks.  
>   
> Why not 6 Levels DCV, costs End (30 AP, 20 RP, 3 End)? Same effect,  
> cheaper, and does not require drastic warping of a power?  
 
You left out -1, does not work against someone with a non-sight targetting 
sense.  With Invisibility you only cause -1 OCV if you use a visible power 
while invisible. 
 
  Joe 
 
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 09:07:34 -0400 (EDT) 
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> Joe Mucchiello writes:  
> > Rat, I think you are attaching to much meaning to the word "power."  I  
> > know you'll correct me if I'm wrong :-),  
>   
> Okay, you are wrong.  Champions Deluxe, page 51:  
>   
> 	"Powers are abilities far beyond those of mortal men....  
>   
> Same page, several paragraphs down:  
>   
> 	"Not all characters will have powers.  A modern spy or a fantasy  
> 	swordsman can be built by buying only Characteristics, Skills, and  
> 	Talents.  
>   
> The way I read that, if heroic characters generally will not have any  
> Powers, normal people definitely will not.  Yet some of these normal people  
> manage to accomplish exactly what the Clinging construct is intended to  
> accomplish.  They do not do it with Powers, because they do not have them.  
> They do it with nothing more than a good Climbing skill and a better than  
> average Strength.  
 
So, normal heroic characters cannot take +1 PER because it is listed in 
the Power section under Enhanced Senses?  After all, the BBB says 
explicitly that "Powers are abilities far beyond those of mortal men...." 
 
> This is not even "extraordinary" skill use.  Extraordinary skill use is  
> something like using Breakfall to land on your feet, unharmed, after  
> falling out of an airplane -- James Bond did it in the opening bit of  
> "Moonraker".  
 
James Bond is superheroic.  Most action films are superheroic. 
 
  Joe 
 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 08:29:42 -0500 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,5,7-10,12,14-15,17,19-25 
From: dwtoomey@juno.com (David W Toomey) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>> Why not 6 Levels DCV, costs End (30 AP, 20 RP, 3 End)? Same effect,  
>> cheaper, and does not require drastic warping of a power?  
> 
>You left out -1, does not work against someone with a non-sight 
targetting 
>sense.  With Invisibility you only cause -1 OCV if you use a visible 
power 
>while invisible. 
 
 
I agree with a limitation, but are you claiming that non-sight targeting 
senses 
are so common as to justify a -1?  -1/4 to -1/2 would be the best I'd 
grant.... 
 
But the main point still stands.  Isn't it better to use a mechanism 
designed to 
reduce hit chances (DCV levels) instead of strongly altering another 
power just 
to get the side effect power (non-invisible Invisibility)? 
 
 
 
David W Toomey 
dwtoomey@juno.com 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 06:36:04 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Lighter Characters (was Poll: Champions Dialogue #2.) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 11:48 AM 5/26/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
>cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
>Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
> 
>All right, how would one model the power where the PC makes themselves 
>lighter? 
> 
>In a game that is beginning locally, one of the players is considering a 
>gravity manipulation character.  One of his possible powers is 'density 
>decrease', where he reduced his weight.  He was considering Shrinking 
>"Does not reduce height", so he could get the reduced weight, extra KB, 
>and so on, without getting any shorter.  How else can you buy this effect 
>without using Shrinking? 
 
   The way you mention above is how I'd do it, at least under 4th Edition. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 06:36:59 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Armor Piercing Variant... 
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At 09:49 PM 5/25/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>Bob Greenwade writes: 
> 
>>> Hmmm... my gut reaction is to make the +1 level a div by 3 instead of div 
>>> by 4.  Other than that, I think it is workable. 
> 
>>    Well, there is the problem of what to do with multiple purchases of 
>> Hardened. 
> 
>You get what you pay for.  Highest cost AP negates first layer of Hardened, 
>working back to least cost AP. 
 
   I might've missed something here... didn't this version eliminate 
multiple purchases of AP? 
--- 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 06:38:03 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Armor Piercing Variant... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 09:48 PM 5/25/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>Bob Greenwade writes: 
> 
>>    I don't know if your history with the Hero System goes back this far, 
>> but in the 3rd and earlier editions, Armor Piercing could be "stacked" so 
>> that if you bought Armor Piercing more than once it doubled it further. 
> 
>Not in 3rd, but maybe in second.  In the 3rd edition, the only way to get 
>multiple AP levels was to use Find Weakness.  All multiple levels of AP in 
>3rd does is negate multiple levels of Hardened (just like 4th edition). 
 
   It was in 2nd, I'm certain.  I had a couple of villains with that 
Modifier (which is how I discovered that this construct is actually 
considerably less vicious than it appears). 
--- 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 06:39:09 -0700 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: RE: Armor Piercing Variant... 
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At 11:06 PM 5/25/1998 -0700, Filksinger wrote: 
>> From: Bob Greenwade 
>> 
><snip> 
>>    Now that I think about it like this (and I really hadn't before now), 
>> the main benefit of having Armor Piercing on an attack isn't to do damage 
>> against targets with high defenses.  The real benefit is having an attack 
>> that won't turn agents and normals into ground beef (since the base damage 
>> is reduced) while still being able to do *something* against targets with 
>> high defenses. 
> 
>Alternately, the real benefit could be against targets that take no Stun, 
such as 
>vehicles, robots, or walls. This, of course, also partially negates your 
suggestion, as 
>the attack will tend to do significant boty to normals and agents. 
 
   Not compared to an unmodified attack (same type, but non Armor Piercing). 
--- 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 06:51:24 -0700 
To: HSR <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Create Object (was Re: Powers lists) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 11:32 PM 5/25/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>At 06:41 PM 5/25/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>   (BTW the above Create Object cost of 26 Active Points is based on 6 
>>points per DEF, and 4 points per BODY.  I wanted the overall cost to be 
>>based on Entangle, since the Power itself is basically a reapplication of 
>>Entangle, but when I started with 5 each for DEF and BODY, Steve Peterson 
>>and a few others quite reasonably pointed out that DEF is more useful than 
>>BODY.  So I based this on the relative cost of rDEF and BODY for a regular 
>>character, which respectively are 3 and 2.  That quite neatly doubles to 6 
>>and 4.) 
> 
>Not this again.  I think calling it a separate power would make more sense. 
 
   Yeah, I've been warming to that idea myself. 
 
> That way you could get rid of the die rolls, it would not be associated 
>with Entangle, and you could make up advantages/limitation for working 
>material as opposed to raw material.  Creating a lump of steel is generally 
>useless.  Creating a mundane sword is not.  And even if you do not want 
>your players creating swords and stick of steel makes a pretty good club if 
>not a sword. 
 
   If a player wants to use Create Object to make a club, then I'd say let 
them; I think they'd be paying more compared to just buying HA, even if one 
is using a modified form of HA that costs 5 points/die: 
   Create Object (Club): 3 DEF/1 BODY -- 22 pts 
   Club: 4d6 HA (20 pts at 5/die), 0 END, OAF -- 15 pts (30 active) 
   Club: 4d6 HA (12 pts at 3/die), 0 END, OAF -- 9 pts (18 active) 
   Never mind the fact that the character is paying END and taking up a 
Phase to create the club to begin with.  And the OAF Club would (per the 
Focus rules in the BBB) have 4 DEF on itself. 
 
>(It's funny.  I objected to this the first time around.  Somehow you've 
>explained it better this time, Bob.  Maybe it was the rDEF vs. BODY 
>explanation.) 
 
   I didn't really have a solid handle on how to handle the DEF/BODY costs 
for Create Object the first time around. 
--- 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 08:56:25 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: A Kirkland <ajk117@mail.usask.ca> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
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On Tue, 26 May 1998, A Kirkland wrote: 
 
> The extension of Shrinking SFX to a semi-Desolid state is no more of 
> a stretch than: 
 
<snip> 
 
...using 'Entangle' to create objects? 
 
Lessee... 
 
Shrinking - name implies getting smaller.  The power also gives you less 
weight, increased KB, increased DCV, etc. 
 
Limitation: Only to get the decreased weight/KB.  About a -1? 
 
 
Entangle - name implies tangling someone up.  The power also gives you the 
ability to create 'walls'. 
 
Limitation: Cannot Entangle (-something large) 
 
 
Yet one seems to be OK and the other seems to be completely wrong - at 
least according to SSR...  
 
Hmm. 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 06:57:19 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Create Object (was Re: Powers lists) 
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At 12:42 AM 5/26/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Joe Mucchiello writes: 
> 
>> Not this again.  I think calling it a separate power would make more sense. 
> 
>Creation of immediately useful things should be accomplished with Powers 
>that simulate the thing being created.  To wit, if you create a sword, the 
>Power is Killing Attack. 
 
   This is my tendency as well.  Create Object is for mundane objects, or 
things that aren't readily represented by other Powers, like bowls, chairs, 
bridges, and the like. 
 
>Creation of solid things that are not so immediately useful, like a large 
>lump of steel, can be done with Entangle.  The base points of Entangle 
>determines DEF, which determines the toughness of the material you can 
>create -- you cannot create reinforced concrete (DEF 8) with a 30-point 
>Entangle (DEF 3).  The ammount of BODY rolled determines the quantity of 
>the material (factored by any AoE effect, normally 1").  A sheet of 
>whatever material will have DEF equal to the DEF of the Entangle, and a 
>thickness based on the BODY rolled (you can use the Wall Body table for a 
>guide). 
> 
>By the by, a 6 DEF/7 BODY mass of steel made this way would have a volume 
>of 2m by 2m by 32mm (2 meters = 1", and 7 BODY worth of metal wall is 32mm 
>thick).  Fold it up a bit and you get a block 12.8cm on a side. 
 
   As a barrier, I'd create this mass of steel using Entangle (6 DEF/6d6 
BODY for 60 AP, or perhaps applying my DEF/BODY division to make it cost 64 
AP).  I'd only use Create Object for it if the steel was shaped into a 
sculpture, statue, automobile frame, jungle gym, ladder, or similar object. 
--- 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 07:04:51 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Create Object (was Re: Powers lists) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 08:44 AM 5/26/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>> Joe Mucchiello writes:  
>> > Not this again.  I think calling it a separate power would make more 
sense.  
>>   
>> Creation of immediately useful things should be accomplished with Powers  
>> that simulate the thing being created.  To wit, if you create a sword, the  
>> Power is Killing Attack.  
> 
>But the object is left lying around.  Wouldn't you have to use the Usable 
>By Others Permanent Effects option in HA1 in order to give someone else 
>the sword?  Thus the Power is HKA, UBO. 
 
   Depends on SFX.  It might be a Universal Focus. 
   Take as a Special Effect example the villain Metalstorm (one of the new 
characters in my current manuscript updating VOICE), who (among other 
things) can throw shards of steel at his opponents.  Yes, this would be 
purchased as RKA rather than Create Object, but the metal shards are left 
laying around after the battle and could potentially be used against his 
teammates later. 
   Would this be worth a Limitation to the RKA?  Perhaps, but I'm not 
giving him one.  It's just not common enough an occurrance.  It *could* be 
done, true, but just not often enough to warrant a Limitation. 
   (The reason Create Object doesn't work for this Power, BTW, is that 
Metalstorm can use his shards the same Phase in which he "creates" them. 
With Create Object, he'd have to create them one Phase and then throw them 
the next.) 
--- 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 09:10:59 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
Reply-To: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
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On Tue, 26 May 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> All right, how would one model the power where the PC makes themselves 
> lighter? 
 
Actually, after giving it a bit more thought, I'm going to have to agree 
with Rat on this one - Shrinking isn't the power to use.  Shrinking gives 
you:  
 
* 1/2 height (which you'd be dropping) 
* 1/8 weight 
* -2 to be seen (which you'd be dropping) 
* +2 DCV (which you'd presumably be dropping, since it's from being 
  smaller) 
* Extra knockback 
 
Since Knockback Resistance costs points, I can't imagine that taking extra 
knockback would be worth any points.  Weight doesn't cost any points - so 
basically, 'Density Decrease' based on Shrinking should be a disadvantage. 
 
You might want to build it another way...here's an idea. 
 
* Extra inches of leaping (your muscles have the same strength, but you 
  are lighter - therefore you can go farther) 
* Aid to DEX, only for balance & full-body coordination (-1/4) (You're 
  lighter on your feet, but that's not going to help you fix a watch) 
 
The 'Takes Extra KB' is kind of sticky - you could take it as a 5-pt 
PhysLim, which is probably the most 'Rules-Correct' way of doing it, or 
you could try to talk your GM into letting you subtract from the cost of 
the other powers.  Or you could try to construct yourself a 'power 
package' out of all of these and call it 'Density Decrease' and make it a 
real power. 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 09:13:15 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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On Tue, 26 May 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
 
> James Bond is superheroic.  Most action films are superheroic. 
 
Hm...while those films are certainly more heroic than normal, I don't 
think they're 'superheroic' in the way the word is used in Champions.  For 
instance, I don't think Bond pays points for his gadgets, vehicles, guns, 
etc the way a character in a 'superheroic' Champs game would. 
 
On the other hand, he is certainly greater than the average man... 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 07:16:50 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
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At 12:56 AM 5/26/1998 EDT, Firelynx16 wrote: 
>>  Hmmm. You're right, that makes sense. I'm still not sure that the mirror 
>>  case is different, though; you're still looking at an image of the target 
>>  rather than the real thing, even if said image is being generated more 
>>  directly. 
> 
>It's a judgement call, I guess.  One could argue that it's an image, not the 
>real target.  Another could argue that the mirror only changes the path of 
the 
>light that allows for sight of the target, keeping the LoS true. (Even though 
>the image is reversed by the mirror).  I'm not sure which works better. 
 
   I offered this suggested rule of thumb before, and nobody commented on 
it (possibly because it was buried in a longer post).  I'll give a slightly 
modified version here: 
 
   If a character would be able to target a regular attack, with or without 
the Indirect and/or No Range Modifier Advantages, under the given 
circumstances, then the character should be able to target a Mental Power 
under those circumstances, with similar modifiers (if any). 
 
   I'd certainly allow a gun to be aimed using the target's reflection as a 
guide; I've seen it done in both real life (once in person, though I'd be 
hard pressed to remember details other than the success of the shot) and 
movies.  I'd give about a -2 OCV penalty for it, but it can be done. 
Similarly, I'd allow a Mental Power to be targeted using a reflection in a 
mirror as a guide, but at that same -2 OECV penalty. 
--- 
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   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 09:27:28 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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On Tue, 26 May 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
 
I'm responding to Joe cos I deleted Rat's original post...this is from 
Rat: 
 
> > Same page, several paragraphs down:  
> >   
> > 	"Not all characters will have powers.  A modern spy or a fantasy  
> > 	swordsman can be built by buying only Characteristics, Skills, and  
> > 	Talents.  
 
Notice the /can/ in there...not the 'must'. 
 
You would have a hard time building a superhero without using powers.  You 
would not have a hard time building a spy or fantasy swordsman without 
using powers - but that doesn't mean you /must/ build said spy or fantasy 
swordsman without using powers... 
 
> > The way I read that, if heroic characters generally will not have any  
> > Powers, normal people definitely will not.  Yet some of these normal people  
> > manage to accomplish exactly what the Clinging construct is intended to  
> > accomplish. 
 
They scale walls with few handholds in bad conditions with little more 
trouble than they would do it under the best of conditions?  That's 
amazing.  Somehow I really doubt it. 
 
Clinging RSR Climbing is a very cinematic thing.  It shouldn't be allowed 
in a 'realistic' campaign.  Nobody has said it should be.  It represents 
someone with a superhuman level of climbing skill - something that is 
beyond the scope of Climbing skill itself. 
 
Consider the souces for the power - Dark Champions, which is a very 
cinematic genre, even if it's not quite as much so as regular Champions; 
and Ninja Hero, where it's in the 'Wild Martial Arts' section along with 
being able to attack faster than the eye can see, being able to leap all 
the way to the horizon, and being able to resist killing damage with your 
bare skin. 
 
> >  They do not do it with Powers, because they do not have them.  
> > They do it with nothing more than a good Climbing skill and a better than  
> > average Strength.  
 
But the people who are taking Clinging, RSR Climbing generally /do/ have 
powers.  See above.  
 
Powers are often used to simulate cinematic versions of 'real world' 
effects - using Mind Control as hypnosis comes to mind.  Master hypnotists 
are a staple of the pulp genre (which is, IMHO, fundamentally a 'heroic' 
genre rather than a 'superheroic' one), and could even see use (with even 
more limitations) in a more realistic game.  
 
J 
 
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Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 07:35:06 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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Maybe you guys should just agree to disagree on this one.  I hadn't read  
the thread until this morning, when I tried to read the whole thing.  I  
haven't seen a new argument on either side in twenty posts or more. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 07:37:51 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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Maybe you guys should just agree to disagree on this one.  I hadn't  
followed the thread until this morning, when I decided to read the whole  
thing.  I haven't seen a new argument on either side in *fifty* posts! 
 
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 07:38:47 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Police Portrayal in Campaigns 
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At 01:15 AM 5/26/1998 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
>Some examples of police encounters that my players have objected to as  
>implausible.  I would be interested in any reaction, especially from  
>those with real-world law enforcement experience. 
 
   I think you underplayed the cops just a tad in Case #3 (with four police 
stations in close proximity, albeit two of them not really city Police, the 
PCs should have been up to their armpits in cops, starting just as they 
were leaving the building) and overplayed the marines a tad in Case #4 
(though with a break-in at CIA headquarters involved, perhaps not), but on 
the whole you were right on target from where I sit. 
   In fact, since the Langley debacle, there will probably be "shoot first 
and ask questions later" orders given to every law enforcement agency in 
the United States, especially at the Federal level.  A second, similar 
event would very likely lead to the creation of a special task force to 
deal with this clear threat to national security. 
--- 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 07:43:40 -0700 
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Stat vs Stat 
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At 07:50 PM 5/25/1998 -0400, Jeff M. Reid wrote: 
>> >   What if for Stat vs Stat checks, instead of rolling damage dice or Stat 
>> >Rolls and comparing the results, these were just boiled down to the 
>> >equivalent of an Attack Roll?  A STR vs STR Roll, to use the most 
>> >frequently-used instance as an example, would become (Attacker's STR/3) + 
>> >11 - (Defender's STR/3) or less. 
> 
>An interesting idea, with one noticeable flaw -- what about General Skills, 
>the ones that aren't based on a stat roll? Shadowing vs. Shadowing, for 
>instance. 
 
   I had that covered originally, and forgot to mention it. 
   General Skills and others not based on Stats -- those that start with a 
simple 11- Roll, that is -- have a base SkillCV of 3 (as though based on a 
Stat of 10, which would yield an 11- Roll). 
--- 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 10:50:56 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Create Object (was Re: Powers lists) 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by Joe Mucchiello 
>But the object is left lying around.  Wouldn't you have to use the Usable 
By Others Permanent Effects option in HA1 in order to give someone else 
the sword?  Thus the Power is HKA, UBO.< 
 
If your character can create swords out of thin air, which are then 
permanent objects, then HKA is not the way to go.  As has been discussed on 
this list before, objects have DEF and BODY, and you don't get that using 
HKA.  The only power which gives you something with DEF and BODY is 
Entangle.  Bob Greenwade, myself, and possibly a few others agreed that a 
new power should be introduced called something like "Create" or "Create 
Object" which allows you to make things.  Technically, it is already 
possible using Entangle, but it is very awkward to buy a power called 
"entangle" to make things...unnecessary confusion for newbies.  Anyway, who 
knows if the powers-that-be have heard our call for a "Create" power, but 
that seems like the best option to me. 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 22:51:44 +0800 
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au> 
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au 
Organization: Only One Inc. 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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> > A Power does not imply a superhuman ability. 
>  
> No, but when a Power does something that a normal person cannot, then there 
> is no implication at all: the power *is* a superhuman ability. 
 
By that definition, anyone who can wiggle their ears is superhuman. 
 
I hope you'll permit my skepticism. "Power" in Champions means 
"Not a Talent, Skill, Perk, or Characteristic, but still something 
you can spend points on." It is true that MOST use of Powers 
tends to be for superhumans - but not all. SFX determines whether 
the Power is a superhuman ability or not. 
 
> > In Hero terms, I'd suspect that these world-class climbers could 
> > certainly be represented with limited Clinging. Indeed, that's the sort 
> > of person that's being simulated with this construct - not a Spiderman 
> > type, but just a damn good climber. 
>  
> And my stance all along is that a power is unnecessary.  All that is 
> required is Climbing skill at a very high level. 
 
By the core rules, all a high skill level does is give you a better 
chance - not more options. That's an optional rule, and one that is 
more frequently observed in its absence than its presence in my 
experience - especially in the superheroic genre. 
 
> > To be absolutely fair, I doubt that there are very many people that are 
> > (eg) Light Sleepers, Ambidextrous, Lightning Calculators, or any other 
> > talent. And I'd be interested to hear if there is a single example of any 
> > recorded "real" Universal Translator. 
>  
> All of these are Talents, which are distinct from skills for exactly the 
> reason you give: they are unusual. 
 
As are "super skills", right? 
 
> > All the "Powers as SuperSkills" introduced in the Ultimate series are 
> > directed basically towards creating new Talents. 
>  
> If that is the goal, then why are they not presented as the Talents they 
> supposedly are?  The answer to that is simple: the pseudo-Talents in 
> question frequently duplicate normal or extraordinary skill use. 
 
This is being overly pedantic. "Why are they not presented as the 
Talents they supposedly are?" - because it's easier to figure the 
point cost if we build them as powers. Sure, I can say (instead 
of limited Clinging) that "super Climbing" is a talent costing 
(say) 5 points, which gives you a DEX roll (+1 to roll for +2 points). 
But then some people may wonder where I pulled the number from. 
Presenting it as a Power allows everyone to see where the calculations 
are being made at a glance; they are of course free to disagree 
with the value of the limitation and adjust accordingly, but at 
least they can see how I arrive at the figure in the first place. 
 
If all it would take to convince you is to write up all these 
"Powers as Superskills" as Talents, costing exactly the same as 
the "super skill" version, then I'm sure that wish can be 
satisfied easily enough. 
 
> > I honestly don't see what's so wrong with this. Taking a Power and 
> > applying limitations to chop off the bits you don't want is a 
> > time-honoured mechanism [...] 
>  
> Because in this case the construct in question was (apparantly) not worked 
> backwards from the special effects. 
 
No? 
 
Let's see: 
 
DESIRED EFFECT - ability to climb really well; better than what the 
Climbing skill normally allows. 
 
CHOSEN CONSTRUCT - Instead of Clinging, all I can see that is even 
vaguely appropriate is Flight, "Must stay in contact with surface". 
Clinging has the advantage that it won't let you climb over bodies 
of water, as well as a mechanic for falling (the Clinging STR - which 
in this case is probably equal to the base STR, or higher to simulate 
a climber who is hard to dislodge). You could, of course, further 
limit Flight - but I doubt if limited Clinging is unappealing that 
you're going to be overjoyed at limited Flight. 
 
Looks pretty OK to me as far as sfx->power goes. 
 
> > And despite Rat's continued insistence that "the skill is enough" - that 
> > interpretation involves GM fiat. 
>  
> If a normal person can do it without a power, then an heroic but otherwise 
> normal can do it without a power.  A GM that decides otherwise has decided 
> to toss out any sense of verisimilitude. 
 
There are no exceptional individuals, then, in the real world? 
 
The division between Powers and Non-Powers is an artificial, mechanical 
one. To paraphrase: 
 
"Any GM that decides otherwise has decided to be overly pedantic." 
 
All IMHO, of course. 
--  
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza) 
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment." 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 22:57:13 +0800 
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au> 
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au 
Organization: Only One Inc. 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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> > This seems a no-brainer to me. I'd simply tell the player to 
> > take Desolidification, "only to walk through solid objects" (-1). 
> > No Affects Physical World required; I figure if you are basically 
> > throwing away the defensive aspects of Desolid, then you aren't 
> > really being abusive by not needing Affects Physical World. 
>  
> You mean for a -1 Limitation I can get all the effects of a +2 advantage on 
> all my other powers and abilities? 
 
Sure - if you're willing to throw away all the defensive abilities 
of the power. 
 
Desolidification requires a +2 advantage on all your other powers 
because it is potentially abusive to be able to attack and not 
be vulnerable in return. Agreed on that much? 
 
So where is the problem with removing the first requirement if you 
also remove the second? That is, if desolidification does NOT make 
you any less vulnerable to attacks, why force you to pay a +2 
advantage? 
 
> I'm sorry, but I thought Steve Long was a crock master.  I was wrong.  I 
> was *very* wrong. 
 
:-) 
 
Nice to be back, Rat. 
 
I notice that you conveniently snipped my warning that this construct 
CAN be abusive in some cases. Apparently that part of my post wasn't 
relevant to your rebuttal. :-) 
--  
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza) 
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment." 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 23:06:18 +0800 
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au> 
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au 
Organization: Only One Inc. 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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> Okay, you are wrong.  Champions Deluxe, page 51: 
>  
>         "Powers are abilities far beyond those of mortal men.... 
>  
> Same page, several paragraphs down: 
>  
>         "Not all characters will have powers.  A modern spy or a fantasy 
>         swordsman can be built by buying only Characteristics, Skills, and 
>         Talents. 
>  
> The way I read that, if heroic characters generally will not have any 
> Powers, normal people definitely will not.  Yet some of these normal people 
> manage to accomplish exactly what the Clinging construct is intended to 
> accomplish.  They do not do it with Powers, because they do not have them. 
> They do it with nothing more than a good Climbing skill and a better than 
> average Strength. 
 
You're entitled to read it that way, of course. OTOH, note that it 
does NOT say that "a modern spy or fantasy swordsman MUST be built 
by buying only Characteristics, Skills and Powers" or that 
"all modern spies and fantasy swordsmen can be built by buying only 
Characteristics, Skills, and Powers." 
 
And if I were inclined to be pedantic, I might point out that 
Skills and Characteristics are subcategories of 
"Powers" in the sense that both made be bought (with special 
GM permission) with advantages and limitations. 
 
The special GM permission phrase bother you? Well, the only way 
to simulate extraordinary skill use without Powers-As-Super-Skills 
ALSO involves special GM permission... 
 
> This is not even "extraordinary" skill use.  Extraordinary skill use is 
> something like using Breakfall to land on your feet, unharmed, after 
> falling out of an airplane -- James Bond did it in the opening bit of 
> "Moonraker". 
 
It's arguable, perhaps, that normal Climbing might allow this 
at a hefty penalty (it's equally arguable that it doesn't, of 
course, since the description of the skill is not that specific. 
I'd tend to fall on the side of "can't", myself - but that's 
just an opinion). It is less arguable that "Invisibility-as-super- 
Stealth" is possible within the scope of the normal Stealth 
skill, to pick an example at random. 
 
The point is that, IF you have a GM who is prepared to use the 
exceptional skill rules, you can get away without these 
"superSkill" constructs. But many GMs - perhaps most, for a 
super hero or Dark Champions setting - do NOT use these exceptional 
skill rules. 
 
I have yet to be convinced that the construct is abusive. It 
seems that - at the very worst - it is a waste of points on 
the player's behalf. Hardly the sort of issue to begin a 
crusade over, IMHO. 
--  
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza) 
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment." 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 08:21:34 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Changing Disads (also alternatives to experience) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:05 AM 5/20/1998 +0100, Chris Lynch wrote: 
>My final suggestion on this is the "Mystery Bank". When I am dealing out 
>the experience, I hold back a few of the points (such as those that are 
>granted for exceptional pieces of roleplaying or skilled playing) and 
>put them in the mystery bank. The difference in the mystery bank is that 
>I spend it on behalf of the players. This may seem like exercising too 
>much control over the game; but the I do give a serious break to the 
>characters in terms of how much I am willing to do with the points. On 
>average very point which is put into the mystery bank is doubled. 
>I spend the points in order to create new interesting plot twists for 
>the players, which they will eventually benefit from. For example, the 
>player mentalist who suddenly develops uncontrollable precognition, or 
>the fire based character who starts to explode under pressure.... 
> 
>What do you think? 
 
   Arguably, this is an idea worth publication.  At any rate, it's 
certainly an idea worth exploring. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 08:32:41 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 09:10 AM 5/26/1998 -0500, Sakura wrote: 
>You might want to build it another way...here's an idea. 
> 
>* Extra inches of leaping (your muscles have the same strength, but you 
>  are lighter - therefore you can go farther) 
>* Aid to DEX, only for balance & full-body coordination (-1/4) (You're 
>  lighter on your feet, but that's not going to help you fix a watch) 
 
   I think the Limitation would be much larger than this; after all, you're 
not getting CV bonuses, Lightning Reflexes, or SPD.  I'd call it a -1. 
Better yet, just call it 5-point Skill Levels with DEX-based Skills, only 
for non-manual use (-1/2). 
 
>The 'Takes Extra KB' is kind of sticky - you could take it as a 5-pt 
>PhysLim, which is probably the most 'Rules-Correct' way of doing it, or 
>you could try to talk your GM into letting you subtract from the cost of 
>the other powers.  Or you could try to construct yourself a 'power 
>package' out of all of these and call it 'Density Decrease' and make it a 
>real power. 
 
   Another way to do it would be to "buy" "negative" Knockback Resistance, 
at the rate of -2 points per +1" Knockback. 
   So if we assume each level of Density Decrease is +1" Leap (which can 
also be applied to being thrown), +1 with non-manual DEX, and +1" 
Knockback, that comes to a package cost of... 2 points? 
   Well, if we take into account that the decreased mass not only makes the 
character easier to carry or throw but also easier to teleport and such, I 
think we could justify 1/4x mass per 5 points (+2" leap, +2 w/non-manual 
DEX, and +2" Knockback).  Personally, though, I'd like to find some other 
benefit to Density Decrease that would justify 1/2x mass per 5 points. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 11:34:27 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Tue, 26 May 1998, Sakura wrote: 
 
> > All right, how would one model the power where the PC makes themselves 
> > lighter? 
>  
> Actually, after giving it a bit more thought, I'm going to have to agree 
> with Rat on this one - Shrinking isn't the power to use.  Shrinking gives 
> you:  
>  
> * 1/2 height (which you'd be dropping) 
 
Correct. 
 
> * 1/8 weight 
> * -2 to be seen (which you'd be dropping) 
> * +2 DCV (which you'd presumably be dropping, since it's from being 
>   smaller) 
 
Possibly not.  The player in question was thinking that being lighter 
while still having the same strength would make it easier to 'roll with 
the punch' allowing him to duck attacks easier.  It sort of made sense in 
a 4-color cimic sort of way. 
 
> * Extra knockback 
>  
> Since Knockback Resistance costs points, I can't imagine that taking extra 
> knockback would be worth any points.  Weight doesn't cost any points - so 
> basically, 'Density Decrease' based on Shrinking should be a disadvantage. 
  
> You might want to build it another way...here's an idea. 
>  
> * Extra inches of leaping (your muscles have the same strength, but you 
>   are lighter - therefore you can go farther) 
> * Aid to DEX, only for balance & full-body coordination (-1/4) (You're 
>   lighter on your feet, but that's not going to help you fix a watch) 
 
It was also pointed out that the reduced weight makes it easier for others 
to carry / throw you.  A useful stunt snce the party will have several 
bricks and the character in question will also have Density *Increase*. 
  
> The 'Takes Extra KB' is kind of sticky - you could take it as a 5-pt 
> PhysLim, which is probably the most 'Rules-Correct' way of doing it, or 
> you could try to talk your GM into letting you subtract from the cost of 
> the other powers.  Or you could try to construct yourself a 'power 
> package' out of all of these and call it 'Density Decrease' and make it a 
> real power. 
 
Well, he isn't set on the power as of yet. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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Date: 26 May 1998 12:30:47 -0400 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Sakura  writes: 
 
>>> The way I read that, if heroic characters generally will not have any 
>>> Powers, normal people definitely will not.  Yet some of these normal 
>>> people manage to accomplish exactly what the Clinging construct is 
>>> intended to accomplish. 
 
> They scale walls with few handholds in bad conditions with little more 
> trouble than they would do it under the best of conditions?  That's 
> amazing.  Somehow I really doubt it. 
 
Aside from taking extra time (adds upwards of +5 to the skill roll), yes. 
I've seen them do it.  These are normal people that can hold their entire 
mass suspended by nothing more than their fingertips (and maybe a bit of 
rosin), even on clifs and such with greater than 90 degree slopes (that 
means they are upside down). 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Joe Mucchiello writes: 
 
> Then I guess you also won't like Invisibility, no fringe, visible power 
> effects (looks just like character).  Very convenient, everyone is 1/2 
> OCV to hit you unless they have some other targetting sense and you are 
> nearly immune to missile attacks. 
 
Nope.  Remember two things: 
 
One, Visible Power Effects makes obvious the source of an otherwise 
invisible power.  In this case, that would be you. 
 
Two, if I can make a targeting perception roll against you, I get my full 
OCV.  And if you are obvious, I do not even need to make that PER roll. 
 
Your construct is a crock. 
 
> "He looks like he's standing right there but everytime I think I have a 
> bead on him he disappears." 
 
> I used this once for a displacer beast type effect. 
 
Buy some DCV-only combat skill levels. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
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Michael Surbrook writes: 
 
> All right, how would one model the power where the PC makes themselves 
> lighter? 
 
A Physical Limitation is the easiest way, although one could work with a 
Susceptability to Knockback.  The disadvantages of being lighter (less 
masssive) greatly outweigh (heh! :) the singular benefit of being easier to 
be lifted and carried by your associates. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Create Object (was Re: Powers lists) 
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David Stallard writes: 
 
> If your character can create swords out of thin air, which are then 
> permanent objects, then HKA is not the way to go.  As has been discussed 
> on this list before, objects have DEF and BODY, and you don't get that 
> using HKA. 
 
Special effects, David.  It does not matter how the sword got there, a 
sword is an HKA.  If you want to "create" a sword, you use HKA, at least as 
the foundation. 
 
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Reply-To: "James Jandebeur" <Waveking@concentric.net> 
From: "James Jandebeur" <Waveking@concentric.net> 
To: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com&> 
        "Champions Listserver" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogues #1 
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 09:52:13 -0700 
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>Player: Look.  I am not asking for anything unreasonable.  My normal 
>defenses are well within campaign limits for a Projector.  What I want, 
>and should have, is immunity to any fire that I am likely to come up 
>against in the campaign.  I don't want to be able to stand on the Sun, 
>but I want to be able to walk through a blast-furnace or a volcano. 
 
 
This is the problem with the players argument right here:  yes, agents are 
less likely to shoot him, but there are plenty of non-sentient instances of 
fire (the burning building, the volcano that has the Mystic Object at the 
bottom of it, so on) that it will still come up fairly often in all 
likelihood.  I think it would be nice if the power was used in some dramatic 
way every now and then, but that can be hard to do without seeming 
contrived. 
 
In any event, I would suggest that he just go with the -1/2 and re-present 
the argument at a later time if the power is used too rarely in the game. 
There's no real way of knowing, otherwise. 
 
JAJ, Gaming Philosopher 
 
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 12:00:38 -0500 (CDT) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Heroes Breaking the Law was (Re: Police Portrayal in Campaigns) 
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> From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
>  
> Some examples of police encounters that my players have objected to as  
> implausible.  I would be interested in any reaction, especially from  
> those with real-world law enforcement experience. 
> 
 
I think that a lot of fans of the super-hero genre don't realize how many 
laws are broken on an everyday basis by the heroes,  even the 'goody-two 
-shoes' types like Superman.  Just off the top of my head: 
- assault  
- assault with a deadly weapon 
- trespass 
- breaking and entering (are these the same ?) 
- obstruction of justice (i.e. refusing to give real name, etc. to LEO's after 
   witnessing a crime)  
 
I'm sure there are many more.     Curt  
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 12:15:14 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net> 
Subject: Re: Go Go Godzilla!!! (Spoilers?) 
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At 07:32 PM 5/26/98 -0500, Remnant wrote: 
>Anybody else seen Godzilla, yet? 
> 
>I was amazed they decided instead of just remaking it they went and actually 
>modified it.  Reminded me a lot of Alien(s) in parts. 
> 
>I know a certain group of Heroes who are going to be getting a very 
>different version of Godzilla in the near future. 
 
Saw it. Liked it ... but criticisms that it's "Jurassic Central Park" (folks 
on alt.movies.monster have dubbed it GINO, "Godzilla In Name Only") are 
probably valid. I don't mind the "faster, leaner, meaner" look (except for 
the Jay Leno chin -- ick), but the new G *was* unsatisfyingly less durable, 
less destructive, and less ... uh ... radioactive. :] 
 
Basically, the original Godzilla didn't seem as awe-inspiring as he should 
have been because of special FX limitations. The new one has the FX, but 
lacks the "force of nature" aura that the original had, so it still falls 
short of its full potential. Oh, well ... there's always the sequel. 
 
ObGaming: I'm involved in a solo-play (1 player, 1 GM) HERO campaign based 
around a "Godzilla Defense Force", loosely drawn from GODZILLA V. BIOLLANTE 
and later films. It'd be interesting to see if he finds a way to sneak the 
'98 Godzilla side-by-side with the 1985+ version we've been facing. :] 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 12:15:17 -0500 
To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net, filkhero@usa.net 
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 09:46 PM 5/26/98 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
> If binoculars can help you aim then so can a TV Camera.  What is a TV 
> camera but telescopic vision with the advantage usable my other and the 
> limitations OAF, Must have Reciever to View, Can only Certain location 
> (what camera is viewing). 
 
How about Clairsentience w/Sight (at least), OIF Monitor, Viewing point 
limited to camera locations (-1/2)? 
 
> In short both the binoculars and the TV Camera are the same powers, 
> telecsopic vision. 
 
Not necessarily, as illustrated above ...  
 
Furthermore, SFX is everything in HERO.  
 
> So if Mental powers will work through one (the binoculars) then why won't 
> it work through the other (the TV Monitor)? 
 
Because binoculars are a "real" image (the image you see is light actually 
reflected from the object(s) in the same manner as an unmagnified object), 
whereas monitors create a COPY of an image. Seeing something through a TV 
camera does NOT "fix" the target's position for you (it does "fix" it in 
relation to the /camera/, so it would count as a targeting sense for weapons 
mounted on the "server" end, IMO). 
 
To put it another way, if a TV camera can be used to attack mentally, why 
not a NORMAL camera? Are we ready to let people zap off mental attacks 
through photographs? 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
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Michael Surbrook writes: 
 
> Possibly not.  The player in question was thinking that being lighter 
> while still having the same strength would make it easier to 'roll with 
> the punch' allowing him to duck attacks easier.  It sort of made sense in 
> a 4-color cimic sort of way. 
 
It "sort of made sense".  That does not sound like you are particularly 
convinced of it, either. 
 
My take, if being heavier has no bearing on the difficulty of rolling with 
a punch, then being lighter has no bearing, either. 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 14:19:51 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Armor Piercing Variant... 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>   It was in 2nd, I'm certain.  I had a couple of villains with that 
Modifier (which is how I discovered that this construct is actually 
considerably less vicious than it appears).< 
 
Ha!  I thought you still could buy Armor Piercing (or Hardened) more than 
once.  Getting my versions mixed up....  The players in my group never buy 
these more than once, but I thought it was still a valid option. 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 11:38:05 -0700 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com&> Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re: Armor Piercing Variant... 
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At 06:38 AM 5/26/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>At 09:48 PM 5/25/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>> 
>>Bob Greenwade writes: 
>> 
>>>    I don't know if your history with the Hero System goes back this far, 
>>> but in the 3rd and earlier editions, Armor Piercing could be "stacked" so 
>>> that if you bought Armor Piercing more than once it doubled it further. 
>> 
>>Not in 3rd, but maybe in second.  In the 3rd edition, the only way to get 
>>multiple AP levels was to use Find Weakness.  All multiple levels of AP in 
>>3rd does is negate multiple levels of Hardened (just like 4th edition). 
> 
>   It was in 2nd, I'm certain.  I had a couple of villains with that 
>Modifier (which is how I discovered that this construct is actually 
>considerably less vicious than it appears). 
 
It would seem you'd quickly hit a point of diminishing returns...each 
additional halving increases the cost more than it does the damage. At some 
point, you'd be better off with Piercing or Penetrating or whatever it's 
called now, or an NND/AVLD, or whatever. 
 
(NND and AVLD killing/does BODY attacks ought to be made 'Official But With 
A Great Big Glowing Neon Stop Sign' in H5Ed, as there are some effects 
which require them[1], and the costing should be consistent. I tend to 
charge +2.) 
 
[1]High-intensity radiation beams, 'Heart attack' spells, etc. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Armor Piercing Variant... 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
David Stallard writes: 
 
> Ha!  I thought you still could buy Armor Piercing (or Hardened) more than 
> once. 
 
Oh, you can.  But the effects of multiple levels of Armor Piercing serve 
only to neutralize Hardened.  No matter how many levels of AP you have, you 
only get one halving. 
 
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 15:29:17 -0400 (EDT) 
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>>It went over on the  
> >party just as well as the Indirect (+3/4) attack from the invisible villain  
> >whose attacks came from images of a different looking villain.  :-)  
> >  Joe  
>   
> Even if your group doesn't make that same ruling as it probably isn't  
> strictly by the book, Indirect attacks are still visible and would make the  
> target able to be attacked at only a -1 OCV.  
 
I forgot.  The attack was IPE as well. 
 
> Why bother with this anyway.  Invisibility is to make you invisible.  If 
you  
> want  
> a character to be harder to hit, that should be bought as plusses to DCV  
> with whatever SFX you desire including a displacer beast effect.  
 
The target was 10 hexes away from the image.  No amount of DCV bonus can 
simulate being 20 meters away.  The idea was for someone with some other 
sense to notice that the villain was not where he appeared to be.  His 
atatcks were only 5d6 normal attacks (indirect, IPE) so he wasn't causing 
any damage to the characters physically.  But no matter what they did he 
would not go down.  He taunted them horribly though.  "Is that your best 
shot?  Here, I'll stand still for a haymaker."  Then when they found him 
they had to restrain themselves from really hurting the 16 year old light 
and sound wizard who was just having some fun. 
 
  Joe 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 14:36:05 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Tue, 26 May 1998, Michael Surbrook wrote: 
 
> > * +2 DCV (which you'd presumably be dropping, since it's from being 
> >   smaller) 
>  
> Possibly not.  The player in question was thinking that being lighter 
> while still having the same strength would make it easier to 'roll with 
> the punch' allowing him to duck attacks easier.  It sort of made sense in 
> a 4-color cimic sort of way. 
 
Sure. So just add +2 DCV (10 pts) per level to the power construct below. 
He has this in a Multipower, yes?  You could also give him bonuses to 
Speed instead (less mass, same strength = faster).  Also, the DEX bonuses 
I suggested would help out there. 
  
> > You might want to build it another way...here's an idea. 
> >  
> > * Extra inches of leaping (your muscles have the same strength, but you 
> >   are lighter - therefore you can go farther) 
> > * Aid to DEX, only for balance & full-body coordination (-1/4) (You're 
> >   lighter on your feet, but that's not going to help you fix a watch) 
>  
> It was also pointed out that the reduced weight makes it easier for others 
> to carry / throw you.  A useful stunt snce the party will have several 
> bricks and the character in question will also have Density *Increase*. 
 
Yeah.  Still, the added effects from KB are going to factor in, there. 
You /might/ just have him buy the bonuses to STR, DEX, and DCV, and call 
the decreased weight a special effect, saying that the increased knockback 
and the increased throwing range cancel each other out. 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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From: "James Jandebeur" <James.Jandebeur@esstech.com> 
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 12:41:11 -0700 
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>Actually, after giving it a bit more thought, I'm going to have to agree 
>with Rat on this one - Shrinking isn't the power to use.  Shrinking gives 
>you: 
 
 
Can't agree with all of your points, as regards the character, Mist, though 
for general Density Decrease you're probably right: 
 
>* 1/2 height (which you'd be dropping) 
 
Yes, he'd be dropping this, to some extent, in the sense that the character 
description is of a full sized humanoid made of mist.  However, in a real 
sense, he is smaller:  there is less mass there, and though the volume is 
that of a full height character, the effects of a reduced height are an 
intrinsic part of the character or can be easily explained.  The character 
can slip through small cracks, so is "small" in that sense, and part of what 
he wanted.  His reach could be considered less than one hex, because you 
could need to be standing inside the Mist for him to use his strength on 
you, which is not what he wanted, but a reasonable restriction (to me) if he 
wants Shrinking.  He can be considered, in all ways but description, to be 
"small".  It's up to the individual to decide if the appearance of the power 
is enough cause to not use a specific power, when all of the effects of the 
power are there. 
 
>* 1/8 weight 
 
As above. 
 
>* -2 to be seen (which you'd be dropping) 
 
Not at all:  the Mist is harder to see than normal humans, light passes 
through him, and so on. 
 
>* +2 DCV (which you'd presumably be dropping, since it's from being 
>  smaller) 
 
Again, keep the +2 DCV:  The gaseous body is much harder to affect than the 
solid body, so you have to hit it "just right" to get any effect.  Spreading 
even works, for this special effect, as does Area Effect.  (Whew - lots of 
Effect in that line...) 
 
 
 
JAJ, Rules Philosopher 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Champions Mailing List A" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Date: Tue, 26 May 98 19:58:25  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Armor Piercing Variant... 
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On Mon, 25 May 1998 19:50:03 -0400, Jeff M. Reid wrote: 
 
>> I prefer the system in Adventurers Club where AP reduces the DEF by the 
>> DC of the attack. 
> 
>My group has playtested that version, and I believe it to be WAY 
>underpriced. I've found that it is deadly to low-defense characters, and 
>much less effective against high-defense charatcers, which seems to me to 
>be exactly the opposite of what Armor Piercing is supposed to do. 
 
Do bear in mind that I GM Fantasy Hero, not Champions. If you find it 
too effective, either increase the cost or reduce the effect, to, say, 
half the DC. 
 
And yes, it does make Picks fearsome weapons - a Great Pick being 7DC 
(2d6+1KAP), but then they were known as can-openers. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "filkhero@usa.net" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Tue, 26 May 98 19:59:54  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: RE: Based on Con for Entangle 
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On Mon, 25 May 1998 23:06:01 -0700, Filksinger wrote: 
 
>> From: Mad Hamish 
>> 
>> At 03:28 PM 5/24/98, qts wrote: 
>> > 
>> >Hmm... In typing the above I accidentally mistyped 'Con' as 'Com'. I 
>> >wonder what the SFX of a Com based/defended Entangle would be? 
>> 
>> A crisis of self image? 
>> self loathing? 
>> 
> 
>How about a spell which enchants you by offering to make you fantastically 
>beautiful/handsome? The less difference there is between you and ultimate, idealized >you, the less effect it has. 
 
Good one! 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 16:01:24 -0400 (EDT) 
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> On Tue, 26 May 1998, Joe Mucchiello wrote:  
>   
> > James Bond is superheroic.  Most action films are superheroic.  
>   
> Hm...while those films are certainly more heroic than normal, I don't  
> think they're 'superheroic' in the way the word is used in Champions.  For  
> instance, I don't think Bond pays points for his gadgets, vehicles, guns,  
> etc the way a character in a 'superheroic' Champs game would.  
>   
> On the other hand, he is certainly greater than the average man...  
 
No, I meant superheroic in the 250+ point meaning.  That being said, I 
also think Bond does pay for gadgets in a Gadget VPP which is only 
modified between movies.  Gadgets in Bond films are usually gratuitous to 
the plot.  Q gives him a watch at the beginning of the film which turns 
out to be just what he needs at the end of the film.  As James gains EPs  
he gains bigger and better gadgets.  (Or at least the films get bigger 
budgets.) 
 
Action films are superheroic because they sometimes use Knockback.  They 
never use bleeding or impairing rules for the hero.  Any film where the 
hero is shot repeatedly and does not go to a hospital (or at least 
someone with a decent paramedic roll) is probably superheroic. 
 
  Joe 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
Date: Tue, 26 May 98 20:07:15  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
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On Mon, 25 May 1998 21:57:20 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
 
>>Basically no. IMO Hero is NOT a system for the beginning GM; it is one 
>>for the GM who wants more, and is willing to put more effort into his 
>>work, because you create everything from scratch. 
> 
>That is what it is now.  I agree totally.  If it ever wants to outgrow its 
>complex reputation and attract a wide following, then it needs to provide 
>something for the GM who isn't quite ready for "scratch."   
> 
>I'd like to see it happen for the (mostly) selfish reason that we would 
>have at least 5 GMs in our group, instead of just 2 :-) 
> 
>The questions are:  Can it?  And if it can, how? 
 
I would dispute that Hero is more complex, though it *can* be - I would 
say, "Requires more effort." And quite frankly, I'm happy with that; 
it's the price paid for the flexibility. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 13:21:16 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Armor Piercing Variant... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 06:30 PM 5/26/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
>Subject: Re: Armor Piercing Variant... 
>Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
> 
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>>   It was in 2nd, I'm certain.  I had a couple of villains with that 
>Modifier (which is how I discovered that this construct is actually 
>considerably less vicious than it appears).< 
> 
>Ha!  I thought you still could buy Armor Piercing (or Hardened) more than 
>once.  Getting my versions mixed up....  The players in my group never buy 
>these more than once, but I thought it was still a valid option. 
 
   It is still a valid option.  You just don't get any benefit out of it, 
other than neutralizing Hardened. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Robert Harrison" <rharriso@iastate.edu> 
Date: Tue, 26 May 98 20:27:45  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: VPP and Magic (Was Re: How Complicated Is Champions?) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 66 
 
On Mon, 25 May 1998 18:07:51 -0500, Robert Harrison wrote: 
 
> Do you have any problems with magic-users being 
>too powerful? 
 
No. Compared with other spellcasters, there's always someone better. 
Further, gaming approx once a fortnight, averaging 2xp/sitting, they 
only get 50 xp per year, and so the VPP will only increase by perhaps 
15 cp, the rest going in stats and skills, plus the odd enchantment. So 
the player has a spellcaster with 50AP spells (aside from stylistic 
advantages). This is quite livable. I've gamed with more powerful 
spellcasters (100 CP pools) without problems. 
 
Compared with other characters, you have to be careful not to let 
spellcasters dominate. Using a Vancian system, coupled with End rules 
fixes this, but the pools generally have lots of Limitations, and the 
GM MUST play on those. Further, non-spellcasters tend to win in 
endurance contests. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 13:32:10 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Breaking the Law was (Re: Police Portrayal in 
  Campaigns) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:00 PM 5/26/1998 -0500, Curt Hicks wrote: 
>> From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
>>  
>> Some examples of police encounters that my players have objected to as  
>> implausible.  I would be interested in any reaction, especially from  
>> those with real-world law enforcement experience. 
> 
>I think that a lot of fans of the super-hero genre don't realize how many 
>laws are broken on an everyday basis by the heroes,  even the 'goody-two 
>-shoes' types like Superman.  Just off the top of my head: 
>- assault  
>- assault with a deadly weapon 
>- trespass 
>- breaking and entering (are these the same ?) 
>- obstruction of justice (i.e. refusing to give real name, etc. to LEO's 
after 
>   witnessing a crime)  
> 
>I'm sure there are many more.     Curt 
 
   This has been happening less and less recently, but I've seen this in PI 
and other mundane detective stories as well, especially on TV. 
   By the same token, during the first season of Walker: Texas Ranger, the 
title character would frequently punch first and ask questions later. 
Subsequently, of course, he's given his suspects a chance to surrender 
first, and often multiple times during a conflict, which (I understand) is 
proper procedure except in certain extreme cases. 
   Oh, and by my understanding, "breaking and entering" is a single term 
for a single offense, unlike "assault and battery," which are two seperate 
terms and two separate offenses.  (YMMV, of course, depending on 
jurisdiction.) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 15:37:51 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 26 May 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> >* Extra inches of leaping (your muscles have the same strength, but you 
> >  are lighter - therefore you can go farther) 
> >* Aid to DEX, only for balance & full-body coordination (-1/4) (You're 
> >  lighter on your feet, but that's not going to help you fix a watch) 
>  
>    I think the Limitation would be much larger than this; after all, you're 
> not getting CV bonuses, Lightning Reflexes, or SPD. 
 
Actually, I was assuming that you would get all of these, as a benefit of 
having a greater strength-to-mass ratio... 
 
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 13:41:25 -0700 
From: Darrin Kelley <flashbak@pacbell.net> 
Reply-To: flashbak@pacbell.net 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Police Portrayals 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
    Quite some time ago, I created a vigilante organization for my 
Champions campaign. Much of the source material, for which, had to come 
from real life sources. Like the police. So I had to make a fair and 
objective examination of, not only what the police are, but examine what 
individual cops were like, to get a relatively clear picture. This was 
easy to do, since most of my relatives are police. (Though I am not 
going to get into what I think of the type of cops they are.) 
 
    I decided on the following portrayal, which seemed pretty close to 
reality: That most cops are good and want to do their job. But are bound 
by too many inane regulations and far too much red tape to play the role 
in society that they are supposed to. Which is also the prime reason 
that many grow lethargic and stop caring, or fall into corruption. 
 
    This portrayal was very important to the construction of my 
vigilante group. Which was composed partially of police that got sick of 
the system and decided to operate free from its constraints. The 
vigilante organization I created was deliberately designed to bring up 
several questions of morality. Which definately is the stuff of good 
comics. 
 
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X-Envelope-Recipient: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Create Object (was Re: Powers lists) 
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 16:45:12 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>If your character can create swords out of thin air, which are then 
>permanent objects, then HKA is not the way to go.  As has been discussed 
on 
>this list before, objects have DEF and BODY, and you don't get that using 
>HKA.  The only power which gives you something with DEF and BODY is 
>Entangle.  Bob Greenwade, myself, and possibly a few others agreed that a 
>new power should be introduced called something like "Create" or "Create 
>Object" which allows you to make things.  Technically, it is already 
>possible using Entangle, but it is very awkward to buy a power called 
>"entangle" to make things...unnecessary confusion for newbies.  Anyway, 
who 
>knows if the powers-that-be have heard our call for a "Create" power, but 
>that seems like the best option to me. 
 
I'm assuming that you can only create one type of object with the base 
"Create" power, unless some type of advantages are applied?  If that is the 
case, then I vote CHANGE Entangle to Create.  Afterall, an entangling 
object just becomes one thing that you can create, cost the same as the old 
Entangle, and works exactly the same--i.e. create webs, ice bonds, etc. 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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X-Envelope-Recipient: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 17:08:44 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>I would dispute that Hero is more complex, though it *can* be - I would 
>say, "Requires more effort." And quite frankly, I'm happy with that; 
>it's the price paid for the flexibility. 
>qts 
 
Yes, flexibility means more effort because flexibility means more 
complicated.  But there are three ways to deal with complication: 
 
1. Get rid of it--i.e. simplify things.  This you don't want to do, because 
you rightly see an inevitable loss of flexibility.  For the most part, I 
agree, although I think there are still some minor ways Hero could be more 
simple and not lose very much.  I don't want to go nearly as far as Fuzion 
did, however. 
2. Use abstraction--This is what I mean by providing meta rules.  If the 
rules can convey the "why" of hero, then the average GM or player can 
handle a greater amount of complexity.  In software design terms, 
abstraction removes the "perceived complexity," which is all that really 
matters to the perceiver. 
3. Divide and conquer.  Templates and components are two ways to handle 
this.  Actually, Hero already started down this road when with 4th ed., by 
separating the rules from the Champions material.  I'm saying Hero could go 
a lot further with this. 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 26 May 1998 18:35:12 -0400 
Lines: 35 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Pariah  writes: 
 
> By your reasoning, most athletes (or even a human able to run a 100 yard 
> dash in less than 30 seconds) are impossible. 
 
> Running: power 
 
Running is a power with a specific, special caveat that it can be purchased 
by normal people. 
 
> Superleap: power 
 
Normals cannot buy Superleap. 
 
> Swimming: power 
 
See "Running". 
 
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Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
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From: "Pariah" <bkern@primenet.com> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 15:40:46 -0700 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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-----Original Message----- 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Monday, May 25, 1998 9:32 PM 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
 
 
>> Rat, I think you are attaching to much meaning to the word "power."  I 
>> know you'll correct me if I'm wrong :-), 
> 
>Okay, you are wrong.  Champions Deluxe, page 51: 
> 
> "Powers are abilities far beyond those of mortal men.... 
> 
>Same page, several paragraphs down: 
> 
> "Not all characters will have powers.  A modern spy or a fantasy 
> swordsman can be built by buying only Characteristics, Skills, and 
> Talents. 
> 
>The way I read that, if heroic characters generally will not have any 
>Powers, normal people definitely will not.  Yet some of these normal people 
>manage to accomplish exactly what the Clinging construct is intended to 
>accomplish.  They do not do it with Powers, because they do not have them. 
>They do it with nothing more than a good Climbing skill and a better than 
>average Strength. 
 
By your reasoning, most athletes (or even a human able to run a 100 yard dash 
in less than 30 seconds) are impossible. 
 
Running: power 
Superleap: power 
Swimming: power 
 
"A slipping gear could let your M203 *                  -=Pariah=- 
grenade launcher fire when you least  * 
expect it. That would make you quite *      www.primenet.com/~bkern 
unpopular in what's left of your unit."  *              ICQ UIN: 879171 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 23:14:33 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Police Portrayal in Campaigns/ Good and Bad cops 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> From: Robert A. West <robtwest@erols.com> 
>  
> Some examples of police encounters that my players have objected to as  
> implausible.  I would be interested in any reaction, especially from  
> those with real-world law enforcement experience. 
>  
 
Personally, I think you did quite nicely with every one of those. I might have played them slightly differently, but I think your players were way off base in their complaints in every one. 
 
Frankly, I thought your players complains to be so ridiculous that I would probably be tempted to find other players, or even temporarily retire, rather than put up with the sorts of things you described. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
 
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From: "Pariah" <bkern@primenet.com> 
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 16:16:31 -0700 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
-----Original Message----- 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Tuesday, May 26, 1998 3:47 PM 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
 
 
 
>Pariah  writes: 
> 
>> By your reasoning, most athletes (or even a human able to run a 100 yard 
>> dash in less than 30 seconds) are impossible. 
> 
>> Running: power 
> 
>Running is a power with a specific, special caveat that it can be purchased 
>by normal people. 
 
Where is this stated? I couldn't find it anywhere in my book. It isn't stated 
under the headers for Movement Powers (C4ed P 55), Running (C4ed P83), 
Swimming (C4ed P85), or Movement (C4ed P142-144) 
 
 
>> Superleap: power 
> 
>Normals cannot buy Superleap. 
 
which would make a great  many athletes impossible. (unless all athletes are 
superhuman) 
 
>> Swimming: power 
> 
>See "Running". 
 
 
See "Running" 
 
"A slipping gear could let your M203 *                  -=Pariah=- 
grenade launcher fire when you least  * 
expect it. That would make you quite *      www.primenet.com/~bkern 
unpopular in what's left of your unit."  *              ICQ UIN: 879171 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 18:24:01 -0500 (CDT) 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Pariah <bkern@primenet.com> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 26 May 1998, Pariah wrote: 
 
> >Running is a power with a specific, special caveat that it can be purchased 
> >by normal people. 
>  
> Where is this stated?  
  
Characteristics, Hero 4th page 13. 
  
> >> Superleap: power 
> > 
> >Normals cannot buy Superleap. 
>  
> which would make a great  many athletes impossible. (unless all athletes are 
> superhuman) 
 
Possibly these athletes have STR, only for leaping (-1)?  There /are/ 
differences between that and Superleap... 
  
J 
 
Hostes aliengeni me abduxerent.              Jeff Johnston - jeffj@io.com 
Qui annus est?                                   http://www.io.com/~jeffj 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 19:28:59 -0400 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Mike Christodoulou <Cypriot@concentric.net> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Breaking the Law was (Re: Police Portrayal in 
  Campaigns) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:00 PM 5/26/98 -0500, Curt Hicks wrote: 
>I think that a lot of fans of the super-hero genre don't realize how many 
>laws are broken on an everyday basis by the heroes,  even the 'goody-two 
>-shoes' types like Superman.  Just off the top of my head: 
>- assault  
>- assault with a deadly weapon 
>- trespass 
>- breaking and entering (are these the same ?) 
>- obstruction of justice (i.e. refusing to give real name, etc. to LEO's 
after 
>   witnessing a crime)  
> 
>I'm sure there are many more.     Curt  
>  
 
One of the things that pisses off several of my players is forcing 
them to realize the consequences of their actions.  When they barge 
into a house to clean up the bad guys, I write up their actions in 
a subsequent newspaper as a warrantless, no-knock entry.  If they  
use a stun-only grenade in a crowd ("It causes them no lasting  
effects, right!"), the papers scream reckless endangerment.  If  
they tresspass to find out information, the case is thrown out of  
court. 
 
Very often, the players are in the habit of hit-first-and-ask- 
questions-later, or otherwise abandoning any pretext of upholding 
the law in their quest for winning the battle.  For the benefit 
of the differing player personalities, I let it slide sometimes, 
and stick it to them on other occasions.  (Oh yeah:  And for the 
people who like to tell me "Well, you'd better examine your reasons 
for being a GM with an attitude like that!"  ... Bite me.) 
 
A great reference for this sort of thing is the Criminal Law  
chapter in Dark Champions. 
 
Incidentally, here in Atlanta, the heroes are guilty of another, 
lesser-known crime:  It is illegal to wear a mask for the purpose 
of causing fear -- e.g. Batman. 
 
 
 
======================  ================================================= 
Mike Christodoulou      "Never doubt that a small group of committed  
Cypriot@Concentric.Net   citizens can change the world.  In fact, it is  
(770) 662-5605           the only thing that ever has."  -- Margaret Mead 
======================  ================================================= 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 19:40:12 -0400 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: TokyoMark <bastet@iquest.net> 
Subject: Re: Go Go Godzilla!!! 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 07:32 PM 5/26/98 -0500, Remnant wrote: 
>Anybody else seen Godzilla, yet? 
> 
>I was amazed they decided instead of just remaking it they went and actually 
>modified it.  Reminded me a lot of Alien(s) in parts. 
> 
>I know a certain group of Heroes who are going to be getting a very 
>different version of Godzilla in the near future. 
 
Yep, saw it.  It was not bad, but only the CGI special effects really 
shined.  I went home and watched the 1992 Godzilla v. King Ghidorah and 
enjoyed that much more.  I kinda suspect the 1990's Japanese Godzilla would 
rip the new 'Godzilla' apart.:) 
 
 
 
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 19:07:45 -0500 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Joe Mucchiello writes: 
 
>The target was 10 hexes away from the image.  No amount of DCV bonus can 
>simulate being 20 meters away.  The idea was for someone with some other 
>sense to notice that the villain was not where he appeared to be.  His 
>atatcks were only 5d6 normal attacks (indirect, IPE) so he wasn't causing 
>any damage to the characters physically.  But no matter what they did he 
>would not go down.  He taunted them horribly though.  "Is that your best 
>shot?  Here, I'll stand still for a haymaker."  Then when they found him 
>they had to restrain themselves from really hurting the 16 year old light 
>and sound wizard who was just having some fun. 
 
Sounds like it was a lot of fun, which is the number one most important 
thing.  Games must be fun or entertaining or why bother.  But.  Now that I 
understand what effect you were trying to achieve I think I can see how to 
do it in a more 'by the book method'. 
 
The problem with using Visible Power effects on the Invisibility power is 
that powers made visible by VPE are not only visible but visible like any 
other power.  That means that everyone can tell where the power is coming 
from.  If I make a character Invisible, he can't run powers that are visible 
or people will be able to tell where he is.  Negating the usefulness of the 
Invisiblity.  If, on the other hand, you make him Invisible and give him the 
power Images w\IPE then he could make himself appear to be somewhere else. 
The big problem with that construct vs. yours is that it is a heck of a lot 
more expensive.  Not getting the limitation on the Invisiblity, and having 
to buy another expensive power.  Since he was a light and sound wizard, he 
probably already had the Images power necessary to do just that.  If he 
already had the necessary Images power and you dropped the No Fringe on the 
Invisiblity, you could probably bring it in for about the same points. 
Bigger END burn, though. 
 
 
 
Alan 
 
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 19:07:54 -0500 
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Bob Greenwade write: 
 
>   If a character would be able to target a regular attack, with or without 
>the Indirect and/or No Range Modifier Advantages, under the given 
>circumstances, then the character should be able to target a Mental Power 
>under those circumstances, with similar modifiers (if any). 
> 
>   I'd certainly allow a gun to be aimed using the target's reflection as a 
>guide; I've seen it done in both real life (once in person, though I'd be 
>hard pressed to remember details other than the success of the shot) and 
>movies.  I'd give about a -2 OCV penalty for it, but it can be done. 
>Similarly, I'd allow a Mental Power to be targeted using a reflection in a 
>mirror as a guide, but at that same -2 OECV penalty. 
 
 
I'm not positive I understand the mirror reference.  I wouldn't have a 
problem if I *really* could shoot the person with a standard gun having a 
sighting in a mirror qualify as LOS.  If, however, the mirror is being used 
to try to shoot around a corner and I couldn't do it with a regular gun then 
I have a problem with it being classified as LOS. 
 
I believe, either correctly or incorrectly, that the implication of the Line 
portion of LOS is a straight line.  Of course Mental powers are completely 
user-defined. 
 
Alan 
 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
Date: Wed, 27 May 98 00:23:19  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 26 May 1998 17:08:44 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
 
>>I would dispute that Hero is more complex, though it *can* be - I would 
>>say, "Requires more effort." And quite frankly, I'm happy with that; 
>>it's the price paid for the flexibility. 
>>qts 
> 
>Yes, flexibility means more effort because flexibility means more 
>complicated.  But there are three ways to deal with complication: 
> 
>1. Get rid of it--i.e. simplify things.  This you don't want to do, because 
>you rightly see an inevitable loss of flexibility.  For the most part, I 
>agree, although I think there are still some minor ways Hero could be more 
>simple and not lose very much.  I don't want to go nearly as far as Fuzion 
>did, however. 
 
More examples and explanations would help, as would someone with 
expertise at laying things out nicely. 
 
>2. Use abstraction--This is what I mean by providing meta rules.  If the 
>rules can convey the "why" of hero, then the average GM or player can 
>handle a greater amount of complexity.  
 
I'm not so sure there's any problem here. I would suggest that the 
person who is interested in Hero is wanting to move on from another RPG 
system. I have great difficulty in envisaging anyone taking up Hero 
'cold'. 
 
> In software design terms, 
>abstraction removes the "perceived complexity," which is all that really 
>matters to the perceiver. 
 
Agreed (I used to program). 
 
>3. Divide and conquer.  Templates and components are two ways to handle 
>this.  Actually, Hero already started down this road when with 4th ed., by 
>separating the rules from the Champions material.  I'm saying Hero could go 
>a lot further with this. 
 
At what cost? The problem I see here is that ideally each little bit 
should have an example, and the more complex items (eg frameworks) 
ought to have many. Putting all this in a printed manual would be 
prohibitively expensive. 
 
Fortunately, I have a solution: have a manual, much as the HSR is today 
with a CD with all the extra goodies on it in PDF and HTML formats. 
This would also allow extensive inexpensive use of colour. 
 
Something else occurs to me: I haven't read Champions - I use the HSR 
and the FH sourcebook, and while the HSR is pretty heavy, the FH 
sourcebook is a d*mn fine piece of work. So we may be talking from 
different bases. More examples would have helped. And the presented 
conversion of the AD&D magic system is incredibly stupid. I'd put in my 
version <g>, plus a Staffordian (Gloranthan) system, deity-given magic, 
psionics, plus discussion of more advanced characters (how do you model 
an arch-mage?) 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 17:24:34 -0700 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Create Object (was Re: Powers lists) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 04:45 PM 5/26/1998 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
>>If your character can create swords out of thin air, which are then 
>>permanent objects, then HKA is not the way to go.  As has been discussed 
>on 
>>this list before, objects have DEF and BODY, and you don't get that using 
>>HKA.  The only power which gives you something with DEF and BODY is 
>>Entangle.  Bob Greenwade, myself, and possibly a few others agreed that a 
>>new power should be introduced called something like "Create" or "Create 
>>Object" which allows you to make things.  Technically, it is already 
>>possible using Entangle, but it is very awkward to buy a power called 
>>"entangle" to make things...unnecessary confusion for newbies.  Anyway, 
>who 
>>knows if the powers-that-be have heard our call for a "Create" power, but 
>>that seems like the best option to me. 
> 
>I'm assuming that you can only create one type of object with the base 
>"Create" power, unless some type of advantages are applied?  If that is the 
>case, then I vote CHANGE Entangle to Create.  Afterall, an entangling 
>object just becomes one thing that you can create, cost the same as the old 
>Entangle, and works exactly the same--i.e. create webs, ice bonds, etc. 
 
   Your assumption is correct (at least, as I'm suggesting the Power). 
   I'm not so sure about outright changing Entangle to Create, though; 
there are some considerations that came up the first time I brought this up 
that would be unbalancing for Entangle (I forget what they are right 
offhand, though, and I unfortunately didn't archive that discussion). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: "Pariah" <bkern@primenet.com> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 17:26:51 -0700 
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-----Original Message----- 
From: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
To: Pariah <bkern@primenet.com> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Tuesday, May 26, 1998 4:37 PM 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
 
>> >Running is a power with a specific, special caveat that it can be 
purchased 
>> >by normal people. 
>> 
>> Where is this stated? 
> 
>Characteristics, Hero 4th page 13. 
 
well, yeah. There's *that* 
 
"A slipping gear could let your M203 *                  -=Pariah=- 
grenade launcher fire when you least  * 
expect it. That would make you quite *      www.primenet.com/~bkern 
unpopular in what's left of your unit."  *              ICQ UIN: 879171 
 
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 19:29:09 -0500 
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>Champions Deluxe, page 83, second column: 
> 
> A character with this Size Power can decrease in size, [...] 
>Hmmm... 
> For 10 Character points, the character can become x1/2 Height, [...] 
> 
>Well, that should settle that.  With Shrinking, your height most certainly 
>does change.  That is not an opinion, that is straight out of the rulebook. 
>It doesn't get any more official than that, Tim. 
 
 
True, with Shrinking size does change. 
 
>Note that Shrinking is listed specifically as a "Size Power".  Size Powers 
>affect the character's size.  That is what they do.  That is their primary 
>purpose.  A Size Power with a limitation "size does not change" is a crock. 
 
 
"That is what they do."  Wouldn't it be more accurate to state that "That is 
one of the things and possibly the most important thing that they do." 
 
>That last is an opinion. :) 
 
Definitely.  Seems to me that is an overly limiting personal belief.  A part 
of the power Growth in the rules states that one level does not necessarily 
make the character any bigger.  So I guess you think that rule is a crock 
too.  Regardless of your opinion, Shrinking does everything that getting 
less heavy does in addition you also get smaller and your reach gets less. 
If you want to do it as a physical limitation, fine.  But the advantageous 
parts of being less heavy but the same size should have to be bought. 
 
If you think that a Mist character should be represented differently that 
simply a character that is less massive fine.  Your use of the term 'crock' 
is lost on me.  Just what is a rules crock? 
 
Alan 
 
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Go Go Godzilla!!! 
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 19:32:43 -0500 
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Anybody else seen Godzilla, yet? 
 
I was amazed they decided instead of just remaking it they went and actually 
modified it.  Reminded me a lot of Alien(s) in parts. 
 
I know a certain group of Heroes who are going to be getting a very 
different version of Godzilla in the near future. 
 
Alan 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 17:34:24 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 03:37 PM 5/26/1998 -0500, Sakura wrote: 
>On Tue, 26 May 1998, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>> >* Extra inches of leaping (your muscles have the same strength, but you 
>> >  are lighter - therefore you can go farther) 
>> >* Aid to DEX, only for balance & full-body coordination (-1/4) (You're 
>> >  lighter on your feet, but that's not going to help you fix a watch) 
>>  
>>    I think the Limitation would be much larger than this; after all, you're 
>> not getting CV bonuses, Lightning Reflexes, or SPD. 
> 
>Actually, I was assuming that you would get all of these, as a benefit of 
>having a greater strength-to-mass ratio... 
 
   I don't think I'd connect relative STR to DEX too much.  The two tend to 
have very little to do with each other in real life; trying to connect them 
in this way with game mechanics is a bit shaky.  After all, neither is a 
Figured Characteristic off the other, and no existing Power, 
Characteristic, or other ability affects both or is affected by both (at 
least, that I can think of off the top of my head), with the sole exception 
of the Climbing Skill (a DEX-based Skill to which a STR Roll can be 
Complementary -- hardly a strong precedent).  On the whole, you'd be much 
better off just letting STR be STR and DEX be DEX. 
   Even if not, though, the Limitation would still be more than -1/4 IMO; 
-1/2 seems much more like it. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 17:46:11 -0700 
To: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com&> "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Lizard <lizard@dnai.com> 
Subject: Re: Go Go Godzilla!!! 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 07:32 PM 5/26/98 -0500, Remnant wrote: 
>Anybody else seen Godzilla, yet? 
> 
>I was amazed they decided instead of just remaking it they went and actually 
>modified it.  Reminded me a lot of Alien(s) in parts. 
> 
I have a brief Rant about it on my Rants page 
(http://www.mrlizard.com/rants.html). I used the same heading you did. 
Scary. 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 20:58:08 -0400 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net&> 
        Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 06:35 PM 5/26/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Pariah  writes: 
>> By your reasoning, most athletes (or even a human able to run a 100 yard 
>> dash in less than 30 seconds) are impossible. 
>> Running: power 
>Running is a power with a specific, special caveat that it can be purchased 
>by normal people. 
> 
>> Superleap: power 
>Normals cannot buy Superleap. 
> 
>> Swimming: power 
>See "Running". 
 
You never answered +1 to Perception rolls under Enhanced Senses in one of 
my other posts.  Is this not allowed to spys, fantasy warriors, etc? 
 
  Joe 
 
 
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From: "Wolf, Dave" <dave.wolf@intel.com> 
To: "\"Champs List\" " <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Go Go Godzilla!!! 
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 18:13:00 -0700 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Anybody else seen Godzilla, yet? 
      
I was amazed they decided instead of just remaking it they went and actually 
 
modified it.  Reminded me a lot of Alien(s) in parts. 
      
I know a certain group of Heroes who are going to be getting a very  
different version of Godzilla in the near future. 
      
Alan 
 
     Seen it and loved it!  Like a roller coaster ride, you can see all of 
the  
     twists and turns coming but boy was it fun going through them.  I think 
 
     I'll go again. 
      
     Dave 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Pariah  writes: 
 
>> Running is a power with a specific, special caveat that it can be 
>> purchased by normal people. 
> Where is this stated? I couldn't find it anywhere in my book. It isn't 
> stated under the headers for Movement Powers (C4ed P 55), Running (C4ed 
> P83), Swimming (C4ed P85), or Movement (C4ed P142-144) 
 
Really.  My CD says this (page 55): 
 
	Characters begin with 6" of Running, 2" of swimming, and a running 
	leap of 1" per 5 STR.  In a heroic campaign the maxima for these 
	are 10" Running and 5" Swimming; the cost of additional Running and 
	Swimming doubles after these maxima. 
 
Seems pretty specific to me. 
 
>> Normals cannot buy Superleap. 
> which would make a great many athletes impossible. (unless all athletes 
> are superhuman) 
 
Only if you ignore how Running adds to leaping distance, especially when 
Running is being Pushed. 
 
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Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ When not in use, Happy Fun Ball should be 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 21:24:18 -0400 
To: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com&> "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 07:07 PM 5/26/98 -0500, Remnant wrote: 
>Joe Mucchiello writes: 
> 
>>The target was 10 hexes away from the image.  No amount of DCV bonus can 
>>simulate being 20 meters away.  The idea was for someone with some other 
>>sense to notice that the villain was not where he appeared to be.  His 
>>atatcks were only 5d6 normal attacks (indirect, IPE) so he wasn't causing 
>>any damage to the characters physically.  But no matter what they did he 
>>would not go down.  He taunted them horribly though.  "Is that your best 
>>shot?  Here, I'll stand still for a haymaker."  Then when they found him 
>>they had to restrain themselves from really hurting the 16 year old light 
>>and sound wizard who was just having some fun. 
> 
>Sounds like it was a lot of fun, which is the number one most important 
>thing.  Games must be fun or entertaining or why bother.  But.  Now that I 
>understand what effect you were trying to achieve I think I can see how to 
>do it in a more 'by the book method'. 
> 
>The problem with using Visible Power effects on the Invisibility power is 
>that powers made visible by VPE are not only visible but visible like any 
>other power. 
 
Woah, woah, woah, go back and read the post before the post you responded 
to.  I was expanding on the second half of my previous post where I 
described an invisible (no VPE) character who created images and used fully 
indirect EBs (IPE) to mess with the players :-) 
 
VPE Invisibility was just a lark for the list. 
 
And yes, if was a lot of fun. 
 
  Joe 
 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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Date: 26 May 1998 21:27:00 -0400 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Sakura  writes: 
 
[Running] 
>> Where is this stated?  
> Characteristics, Hero 4th page 13. 
 
Thanks for that reference. 
  
[...] 
 
> Possibly these athletes have STR, only for leaping (-1)?  There /are/ 
> differences between that and Superleap... 
 
Nah.  Like I said, do not forget to factor in how Running affects leaping 
distance.  A *fast* sprinter will have at least 10" of Running, and when 
pushed that goes up to 16".  That factors out to +8", or 16 meters, added 
to his natural ~2" horizontal leap distance for Strength.  Does 20 meters 
sound like a world-class long jump to you?  It certainly does to me (I 
believe the record is ~21 meters). 
 
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                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 20:28:26 -0500 
From: Tim Statler <tstatler@igateway.net> 
Reply-To: tstatler@igateway.net 
To: hero-l@sysabend.org, Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
Subject: Re: Babylon 5 Weapons 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Tokyo Mark wrote: 
>  
> I've been converting over weapons for Babylon 5 and wanted to run a few 
> things past the list. 
 
<<BIG SNIP>> 
 
> Any comments or questions are welcome. 
 
These are real good. I agree with you that they are reduced Penetration. 
 
Have you worked up the martial arts styles yet? I'm not any good at the 
MA creation stuff. I'm working on the class kits (EF, Rangers, Mimbari 
Class, Centauri House Guard, etc.). I'm going to post my revised races 
soon.  
 
Tim Statler 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 01:34:50 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: [Re: Clinging/Climbing] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> Pariah  writes: 
>  
> > By your reasoning, most athletes (or even a human able to run a 100 yard 
> > dash in less than 30 seconds) are impossible. 
>  
> > Running: power 
>  
> Running is a power with a specific, special caveat that it can be purchased 
> by normal people. 
 
A specific, special caveat that isn't in the rulebook. This is your opinion, not a rule. 
 
> > Superleap: power 
>  
> Normals cannot buy Superleap. 
 
Depends upon how you handle it. If you allow people to add to leaping distance by running, then you are probably right. Otherwise, some athletes probably achieve Superleap. 
 
> > Swimming: power 
>  
> See "Running". 
 
As above, a perfectly valid opinion, but not a rule. 
 
You might also note that Enhanced Senses are also available to normals. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 26 May 1998 21:35:48 -0400 
Lines: 34 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Joe Mucchiello writes: 
 
> You never answered +1 to Perception rolls under Enhanced Senses in one of 
> my other posts.  Is this not allowed to spys, fantasy warriors, etc? 
 
Hmmm... sorry... missed that. 
 
Technically speaking, no, they cannot buy Enhanced Perception. 
 
This is where it gets interesting.  They certainly can buy skill levels 
with Perception, much as they can with any other attribute-based roll.  And 
funny thing is, they cost *exactly* the same as Enhanced Perception. :) 
 
IMO, Enhanced Perception only peripherally belongs under Enhanced Senses. 
It more logically belongs under Skils along with the variety of other Skill 
Levels. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Go Go Godzilla!!! 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 26 May 1998 21:39:39 -0400 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
TokyoMark  writes: 
 
> I kinda suspect the 1990's Japanese Godzilla would rip the new 'Godzilla' 
> apart.:) 
 
Anyone see the Southpark "kick the baby" bit? 
 
Oh, yeah, Gojira playing soccer. :) 
 
Scale is about right. 
 
Yeah, I saw the new movie.  Rather, I saw Jurassic Park, Aliens, ID4, and a 
plethora of bits and in-jokes from a variety of other movies and TV shows. 
But it wasn't "Godzilla". 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 21:46:07 -0400 
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Armor Piercing Variant... 
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id VAA01604 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> Do bear in mind that I GM Fantasy Hero, not Champions. If you find it 
> too effective, either increase the cost or reduce the effect, to, say, 
> half the DC. 
 
That's exactly what I eventually convinced the GM to do. He was absolutlely 
in love with the varient, and gave it to almost all his villains (the first 
red flag, to my way of thinking). I convinced him that any advantage that 
could conceivably reduce the target's defense to zero (while still doing 
BODY damage) was worth at least +1. 
 
Also, upon rereading the thread, I realized that he was running it slightly 
differently -- instead of reducing the defense by the DC of the attack, he 
would reduce it by the BODY rolled. Slightly different dynamic. 
 
Jeff Reid 
Morfhis@compuserve.com 
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 21:46:11 -0400 
From: "Jeff M. Reid" <Morfhis@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Players who dont pay attention 
To: Champions Mailing List A <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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> I remember a couple who in one game many moons ago, who kept a blanket to 
 
> cover themselves with, under the illusion that no one else would notice  
> or be distracted or offended by the goings on under the blanket. 
 
When did you play in my game!?! :-) 
 
Jeff Reid 
Morfhis@compuserve.com 
http://www.now-online.com/morfhis/bugloony.htm 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 26 May 1998 21:46:25 -0400 
Lines: 49 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Remnant  writes: 
 
>> Note that Shrinking is listed specifically as a "Size Power".  Size Powers 
>> affect the character's size.  That is what they do.  That is their primary 
>> purpose.  A Size Power with a limitation "size does not change" is a crock. 
 
> "That is what they do."  Wouldn't it be more accurate to state that "That 
> is one of the things and possibly the most important thing that they do." 
 
Well, no.  If affecting size was not their primary purpose, they would not 
be listed as "Size Powers".  They would be Standard Powers, like Density 
Increase. 
 
	The Size Powers -- Shrinking and Growth -- enable the character to 
	change his size.  Growth allows a character to be larger than 
	normal, while Shrinking allows a charcter to be smaller than normal. 
 
Pretty straightforward, that, I think.  Size powers exist specifically to 
change a character's size.  Hmm... read on. 
 
	A target's size affects the ability of attackers to spot and hit 
	the target.  Smaller targets are harder to spot and hit; for every 
	x1/2 as big as a normal human, a target is -2 on all PER Rolls made 
	against it and gets +2 DCV against all attacks.  Larger targets are 
	easier to spot and hit; for every x2 as big as a normal human, a 
	target is +2 on all PER Rolls made against it and it gets -2 DCV 
	against all attacks. 
 
And I think *that* should be the final nail in the coffin on using Size 
Powers with "size does not change" limitations.  If size does not change, 
then these secondary effects do not come into effect. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball contains a liquid core, 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should 
                                    \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at. 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 21:48:59 -0400 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 09:35 PM 5/26/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Joe Mucchiello writes: 
>> You never answered +1 to Perception rolls under Enhanced Senses in one of 
>> my other posts.  Is this not allowed to spys, fantasy warriors, etc? 
>Hmmm... sorry... missed that. 
The list is bit busy these days, isn't it? 
 
>Technically speaking, no, they cannot buy Enhanced Perception. 
> 
>This is where it gets interesting.  They certainly can buy skill levels 
>with Perception, much as they can with any other attribute-based roll.  And 
>funny thing is, they cost *exactly* the same as Enhanced Perception. :) 
 
If I may turn the tables on you Rat, strickly speaking, perception is not a 
skill. 
 
>IMO, Enhanced Perception only peripherally belongs under Enhanced Senses. 
>It more logically belongs under Skils along with the variety of other Skill 
>Levels. 
 
Or you could just let non-heroics have Powers?  :-) 
 
  Joe 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 21:51:23 -0400 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net&> 
        Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 09:27 PM 5/26/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>Sakura  writes: 
>> Possibly these athletes have STR, only for leaping (-1)?  There /are/ 
>> differences between that and Superleap... 
> 
>Nah.  Like I said, do not forget to factor in how Running affects leaping 
>distance.  A *fast* sprinter will have at least 10" of Running, and when 
>pushed that goes up to 16".  That factors out to +8", or 16 meters, added 
 
13", he pays 4 points per 1" over 10 (p143).  Also, a track and field 
athlete probably has more that 10" of running, he just pays through the 
nose for it. 
 
OTOH, I agree, superleap is not needed for athletes.  Of course a pole 
vault pole is built with Superleap OAF, RSR. 
 
  Joe 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 19:08:05 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net 
To: Sakura <jeffj@io.com> 
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Cc: Pariah <bkern@primenet.com&> Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>> which would make a great  many athletes impossible. (unless all athletes are 
>> superhuman) 
> 
>Possibly these athletes have STR, only for leaping (-1)?  There /are/ 
>differences between that and Superleap... 
>  
 
 
 
Doesn't buying a charateristic with a Limitation make it a Power?  
 
I know violence doesn't solve all problems... 
	But it sure feels good! 
		Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 22:18:25 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Go Go Godzilla!!! 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 2 
 
>Yeah, I saw the new movie.  Rather, I saw Jurassic Park, Aliens, ID4, and a 
>plethora of bits and in-jokes from a variety of other movies and TV shows. 
>But it wasn't "Godzilla". 
 
I liked the new look for Godzilla, but he was way, way too fast and agile. 
Godzilla isn't something you're supposed to be able to miss when you shoot 
at him...if you haven't seen the movie, imagine Godzilla with a DCV of 8, 
rather than somewhere in the negatives (HERO Bestiary pegs Hach-U-Rui, the 
Godzilla 'homage' at -11 DCV, about right). 
 
Rat's right. It didn't feel like a Godzilla flick. Not enough lumbering, not 
enough nigh-invulnerability, no 'clever' means of taking out the big G. 
 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!" 
-Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 19:20:28 -0700 
From: Rick Holding <rholding@ActOnline.com.au> 
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Trevor Barrie wrote: 
> >       While it may be the best (disputable), it is certainly complex enough 
> > to even cause Hero fans to baulk. 
>  
> Complex compared to what? It's vastly simpler than AD&D, and simpler than 
> Hero too as far as I can tell. 
>  
> > Not so much the set spells, but the spontanious magic that is such a big and 
> > intergral part of the system. 
>  
> You roll a die, apply the modifiers, see how high they got and check what 
> a spell of that level can do according to the guidelines. Where's the 
> complexity? 
 
	I have played the system a couple of times with people who have played it a  
lot.  Certainly it works the way that you have described as far as determining the  
result of any spell.  But the way these people rattled of the effects they were  
after during SPONTANIOUS magic (ie. no predetermined spell) left me in their dust.  
 It is the play of combinations of various fields of magic that takes time to get  
used to.  THATS what I mean by being complex.  Like every thing else, with time  
comes familiarity and ease in using the system, be it Ars Magica or Champions. 
--  
----------------------------------------------------------- 
Ricky Holding    Email: rholding@ActOnline.com.au 
Work is only there to give us time to talk about play 
----------------------------------------------------------- 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 02:27:54 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: [Re: Clinging/Climbing] 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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Donald Tsang wrote: 
 
>>> > By your reasoning, most athletes (or even a human able to run a 100 yard 
>>> > dash in less than 30 seconds) are impossible. 
>>>> 
> >> > Running: power 
>>>  
>>> Running is a power with a specific, special caveat that it can be purchased 
>>> by normal people. 
>> 
>>A specific, special caveat that isn't in the rulebook. This is your 
>>opinion, not a rule. 
> 
>Actually, under Characteristics, it _is_ a rule. 
 
My mistake. 
 
>Rat is wrong much of the 
>time, but don't jump the gun -- check the HSR/BBB before flaming, please? 
 
1. Most, if not all, of the people on the list correct mistakes they believe they see w/o consulting the book. If you _always_ check the book before correcting someone, then you are an exception, not the rule. Additionally, while I don't have the book with me, I believe the sections I would have checked (the power descriptions) would not have said I was wrong. 
 
2. This was not a flame. There was nothing in it intended to be inflamitory. I stated only (incorrectly, I admit) that Rat was posting an opinion. Not a flame. If I inadvertantly stated as fact something not in the rulebook, I would hope that someone would point out that I had made a mistake. 
 
>In any case, wouldn't your message have been more appropriate as private? 
 
Why? There was an honest disagreement as to what was and wasn't an official rule. I said nothing intended to be insulting or otherwise inflammitory. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 21:46:16 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: filkhero@usa.net 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Filksinger wrote: 
 
> > From: Trevor Barrie 
> > 
> > 
> <snip> 
> > I can see SFX reasons for not allowing it (why exactly does a mentalist 
> > need "line of sight", anyway?), but the play balance arguments aren't 
> > very convincing IMODO. 
> > 
> 
> Well, I assume that you cannot influence someone's mind unless you know _exactly_ where 
> they are, as default. Thus, binoculars would work, and so would a mirror (with possible 
> penalties), but television cannot be properly used for a targeting sense. 
> 
 
If binoculars can help you aim then so can a TV Camera.  What is a TV camera but telescopic 
vision with the advantage usable my other and the limitations OAF, Must have Reciever to 
View, Can only Certain location (what camera is viewing).  In short both the binoculars and 
the TV Camera are the same powers, telecsopic vision.  So if Mental powers will work through 
one (the binoculars) then why won't it work through the other (the TV Monitor)? 
 
> Look at it this way. Assume you had a weapon that could penetrate any barrier, had 
> unlimited range, and perfect precision in aiming. You could use Telescopic Vision to aim 
> it; that's a scope. You could use a mirror to aim it, though it might be difficult. 
> However, I do not believe that you could use the television image of the President on TV 
> to aim the weapon. A local closed-captioned system, maybe with significant penalties, but 
> not TV. 
 
Why Not? Its done with sattelite images and missles, so why not Mental Powers? 
 
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 23:27:51 -0400 
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Go Go Godzilla!!! 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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On Tue, 26 May 1998 19:32:43 -0500, Remnant wrote: 
 
>Anybody else seen Godzilla, yet? 
> 
>I was amazed they decided instead of just remaking it they went and actually 
>modified it.  Reminded me a lot of Alien(s) in parts. 
> 
>I know a certain group of Heroes who are going to be getting a very 
>different version of Godzilla in the near future. 
 
Well, I guess it was more or less entertaining, but if they didn't want to make a Godzilla  
film, why call it Godzilla - just call it "The Beast From 20,000 Fathoms" (which is what the  
plot resembled). 
 
 
-=>John Desmarais 
 
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From: "Marc Seebass" <kitsune-bi@worldnet.att.net> 
To: "Champions Mailing List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Unsubscribe 
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 22:28:47 -0500 
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I'm going to A-kon this weekend, and I don't want to come back with 500 
messages to download. So please unsubscribe me, I'll resubscribe when I get 
back. 
 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 19:33:55 -0800 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Eric Chaves <rambler@sowest.net> 
Subject: Heroes Breaking the Law was (Re: Police Portrayal in Campaigns) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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> 
>I think that a lot of fans of the super-hero genre don't realize how many 
>laws are broken on an everyday basis by the heroes,  even the 'goody-two 
>-shoes' types like Superman.  Just off the top of my head: 
>- assault 
>- assault with a deadly weapon 
>- trespass 
>- breaking and entering (are these the same ?) 
>- obstruction of justice (i.e. refusing to give real name, etc. to LEO's after 
>   witnessing a crime) 
> 
>I'm sure there are many more.     Curt 
> 
 
Possibly a few more: 
 
resisting arrest 
destruction of property 
manslaughter/murder 
 
 
 
 
Geek Code 
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GCS d++ H s:+ !g !p au+ a- w++ v++ C++++ UL+ P? L+ 3- E? N+++ K- W--- M++ !V 
po--- Y+ t++ 5 j R++ G'' tv++ b++ D++ B--- e- u** h+ f+ r n+ y** 
**************************************************************************** 
 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 20:45:40 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Police Portrayal in Campaigns/ Good and Bad cops 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Filksinger wrote: 
  
> Personally, I think you did quite nicely with every one of those. I might have played them slightly differently, but I think your players  
were way off base in 
>  
> Frankly, I thought your players complains to be so ridiculous that I would probably be tempted to find other players, or even temporarily  
retire, rather than p 
 
Perhaps I was not clear that, in all but one instance, I was discussing  
the reaction of a vocal minority.  I tend to have moderate-sized  
runs: five to eight players, occasionally up to twelve.  The job of  
rotating malcontent of the evening is rarely unfilled.  There are three  
players (the other Champions GMs) who essentially never complain about  
anything.  There are two or three players who are essentially never  
content.  The others are somewhere in the middle. 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 23:54:10 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7 
To: bastet@iquest.net 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Go Go Godzilla!!! (Spoilers?) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>  
> Saw it. Liked it ... but criticisms that it's "Jurassic Central Park" (folks 
> on alt.movies.monster have dubbed it GINO, "Godzilla In Name Only") are 
> probably valid. I don't mind the "faster, leaner, meaner" look (except for 
> the Jay Leno chin -- ick), but the new G *was* unsatisfyingly less durable, 
> less destructive, and less ... uh ... radioactive. :] 
 
It was ok as a action monster movie if you ignored the rather obvious lack 
of continuity, logic, and plot.  Add in a hero I kept hoping would get 
killed and I was a little disappointed.  The French insurance agents were 
great though.  I do tend to agree, it was not Godzilla.  the 
faster,meaner, leaner was ok.  But they changed more than they needed to, 
so the end result was not recognizably Godzilla.  Take the name off the 
movie and have no one in the movie say the word Godzilla and I wonder how 
many people would look at the monster and think 'Wow, it's Godzilla'.  The 
lack of radioactive breath was curious, it's such  a  trademark of Big G. 
As best I could tell he had no flaming breath at all, just breath with 
fumes that twice caught fire from outside sources. 
 
>  
> Basically, the original Godzilla didn't seem as awe-inspiring as he should 
> have been because of special FX limitations. The new one has the FX, but 
> lacks the "force of nature" aura that the original had, so it still falls 
> short of its full potential. Oh, well ... there's always the sequel. 
 
Don't remind me.  I'd hope the hero will be more interesting, but the same 
guy is signed for II and III. 
 
>  
> ObGaming: I'm involved in a solo-play (1 player, 1 GM) HERO campaign based 
> around a "Godzilla Defense Force", loosely drawn from GODZILLA V. BIOLLANTE 
> and later films. It'd be interesting to see if he finds a way to sneak the 
> '98 Godzilla side-by-side with the 1985+ version we've been facing. :] 
 
The Godzilla world is pretty interesting.  Telepathy and telekinesis are 
scientific fact.  Radioactivity can create all types of strange things. 
The Destroyer from the last Godzilla movie is roughly human size at one 
point, well, there are a bunch of human sized creatures at least, before 
they merge into the big Destroyer.  Consider the high tech level, the 
existance of time travel and teleportation (Godzilla v. King Ghidorah), 
and there is alot of room for campaign ideas.  I've thought about doing a 
world with this, but I doubt I could get the group I usually play with to 
forget the silly 70's Godzilla movies. 
 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 00:37:18 -0500 
To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Cc: filkhero@usa.net, champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 07:33 AM 5/27/98 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
> The only difference I see is that the picture does not give the current 
> location of the target.  If the target is no longer in that location then 
> the picture does no good.  Videotaped reply would also be useless since it 
> does not give current exact location of the target. Line of Sight give 
> current exact location, Telescopic vision gives current exact location, 
> Live video feeds and survailence cameras give current exact location, 
 
No, live video feeds and surveillance cameras give the ILLUSION of current 
exact location. You're watching news and they cut in with a live news feed. 
Do you REALLY know exactly where the reporter is? You might be able to 
deduce this from context, or they might tell you, but that's not the same as 
knowing for certain. In the end, you're at the mercy of the camera's 
location -- it could be where it seems to be, or it could be broadcasting 
from a soundstage beneath the ocean. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 00:37:21 -0500 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 10:54 AM 5/27/98 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>Joe Mucchiello writes: 
> 
>> If I may turn the tables on you Rat, strickly speaking, perception is not 
>> a skill. 
> 
>Neither is DEX, but that does not mean that one cannot buy skill levels 
>with DEX rolls.  Perception is just another charcteristics roll. 
 
Doesn't it? Is there a place in the BBB that specifically allows you to buy 
skill levels with ANY non-skill CHAR roll? (I'm asking out of curiosity, not 
as some kind of challenge to your argument(s) -- just looking for verification). 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
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From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Re: Go Go Godzilla!!! (Spoilers?) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 02:08:30 -0400 (EDT) 
Organization: VTSFFC 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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> lack of radioactive breath was curious, it's such  a  trademark of Big G. 
> As best I could tell he had no flaming breath at all, just breath with 
> fumes that twice caught fire from outside sources. 
 
  I hear tales of this on various newsgroups (i.e., unverified sources) 
that the 98 Goji was originally supposed to have "Hurricane Breath". 
But, after a lotta objections, the studio condensended to let it burn  
a little, and added the 'radioactive flame' by dubbing over existing SFX 
shots. 
 
                                                Daniel Pawtowski 
 
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Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 23:49:11 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: Champs List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Remnant wrote: 
>  
> >I don't think that the Impairment and Disabling rules do more than give a 
> >GM an excuse to exercise fiat in such matters. 
 
>  
> Isn't that all any of the rules do? 
>  
> Alan 
 
IMNSHO: *NO*! 
 
Rules exist precisely for the opposite reason, to give a structure to the  
game upon which the players can rely, and so constrain the GM to maintain  
fairness and balance.  Every time a GM says, "This is happening because  
I want it to," the game moves just a little farther down the slippery  
slope. 
 
Over the years, I have seen far too many games degenerate into favoritism  
and psychological abuse of the players.  I understand that I take a  
somewhat extreme and uncompromising position in this regard, but anyone  
who has read my .sig should not be surprised by that. 
 
Consider two adventures.  In each case, the players accidentally hit a  
bystander, who is in danger of dying (negative BODY).  In each case,  
there is one character with a 20-point Code Against Killing, who tries to  
get the dying man to the hospital in time.  The hospital is equally close  
and equally good in the two cases, but one dies and one lives. 
 
If the player whose character failed to save the dying man believes that  
the difference was mere GM fiat, then he will, again in my experience,  
feel unfairly treated.  If, on the other hand, the player understands  
that the result was determined by an impartial system unaffected by the  
GM's preferences, then he will not, in my experience, feel unfairly  
treated. 
 
Of course, at this point, someone will undoubtably cite at least one of  
Kurt Goedel, Kenneth Arrow or Alonzo Church as proof that no finite rules  
system can possibly completely represent a role-playing game, and that GM  
fiat is necessary at some point.  I do not dispute this.  One can afford  
a few steps down the slippery slope, just not too many. 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 03:04:30 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
X-Sender: bastet@iquest7 
To: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net> 
cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Go Go Godzilla!!! (Spoilers?) 
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On Wed, 27 May 1998, Daniel Pawtowski wrote: 
 
>   I hear tales of this on various newsgroups (i.e., unverified sources) 
> that the 98 Goji was originally supposed to have "Hurricane Breath". 
> But, after a lotta objections, the studio condensended to let it burn  
> a little, and added the 'radioactive flame' by dubbing over existing SFX 
> shots. 
 
That would tend to explain why the flames appeared to cause no real 
heat or fire damage.  Even his 'Hurricane Breath' was in consistent. 
Sometimes strong enough to blow away cars, other times no even enough to 
knock down a human. 
 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 07:00:07 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 07:45 AM 5/27/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>   Satellite images and missiles cannot be aimed using an image on a 
>television, with no other frame of reference.  Missiles and other 
>large-scale weapons can be aimed using video cameras, but generally this is 
>assisted with computerized sighting systems of varying levels of 
>sophistication to give a frame of reference for the image on the screen in 
>relation to where the weapon is aiming (that is, the Clairvoyance is bought 
>as Targeting). 
 
Actually, as I understand it, Clairvoyance can't be "bought targeting", 
since it's not a Sense, it merely /conducts/ an existing sense; whether the 
targeting elements of /that/ sense still apply is (all together now) subject 
to SFX. IMO, things like camera-guided missiles or satellite-guided ICBMs 
would either be constructed as automatons that simply used their own vision 
as the "camera", or an outre SFX of an Indirect attack. 
 
This reminds me of the oddity I worked out once during the last "Update to 
5th Edition" threads: Purchase precognition and postcognition. Buy a 
suitable Elemental Control or Multipower with all the Mental Powers in it, 
Transdimensional. Remembering that: 
        -> According to the rules for XDM, "time" counts as a dimension. 
        -> Mental powers only require "line of sight" to work. 
if Clairsentience can be used to provide LOS for mental powers, this power 
construct (workable in a 250 pt. character, though somewhat crunched by 
active point limits) creates someone who's able to alter (controlling, 
deluding, or just outright blasting key figures) past or future events -- in 
other words, you've built a virtual /deity/ ... 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 07:00:09 -0500 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 07:48 AM 5/27/98 -0700, Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>Furthermore, SFX is everything in HERO.  
> 
>   Actually, SFX is only half the equation.  The other half is mechanics. 
 
(*sigh*) Just when you thought it was safe to use stock hyperboles without 
micromanaging your grammar ... 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 07:00:14 -0500 
To: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins), champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net> 
Subject: Re: Go Go Godzilla!!! 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 05:08 PM 5/27/98 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
>Usually they're tossing unguided rockets, especially in the way early ones. 
>IOW, they're tossing 'swarm effect' attacks at Godzilla, in a buckshot 
>fashion. Of course, there's always range to consider, and the fear 
>factor...Godzilla's a walking PRE Attack that doesn't get any better. 
 
I was thinking much along the same lines. 
 
><Godzilla roars!> 
>Pilot: Aiieeee!!!! <pulls trigger at random> 
><Godzilla smashes building!> 
>Tank Gunner: Aaaaahhhh! <pulls trigger prematurely> 
><Godzilla eats a train!*> 
>Helicopter Pilot: Eeeeek!! <swerves, spoiling his gunner's shot> 
> 
>*Godzilla should pick up or destroy at least one train full of people every 
>movie. He did it in King of the Monsters, and in Godzilla 1985, and the bit 
>worked both times. 
 
He tries it in GODZILLA V. KING KONG, too, IIRC, although they wimp out and 
let the train get evacuated first. :] 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 07:33:16 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net> 
CC: filkhero@usa.net, champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Bryant Berggren wrote: 
 
> At 09:46 PM 5/26/98 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
> > If binoculars can help you aim then so can a TV Camera.  What is a TV 
> > camera but telescopic vision with the advantage usable my other and the 
> > limitations OAF, Must have Reciever to View, Can only Certain location 
> > (what camera is viewing). 
> 
> How about Clairsentience w/Sight (at least), OIF Monitor, Viewing point 
> limited to camera locations (-1/2)? 
 
Fine, If that is the way you want to define them.  Then the Egoist would need to 
buy Clairsentience as a targetting sence before being able to use mental powers 
through cameras. 
 
> 
> 
> > In short both the binoculars and the TV Camera are the same powers, 
> > telecsopic vision. 
> 
> Not necessarily, as illustrated above ... 
> 
> Furthermore, SFX is everything in HERO. 
> 
> > So if Mental powers will work through one (the binoculars) then why won't 
> > it work through the other (the TV Monitor)? 
> 
> Because binoculars are a "real" image (the image you see is light actually 
> reflected from the object(s) in the same manner as an unmagnified object), 
> whereas monitors create a COPY of an image. Seeing something through a TV 
> camera does NOT "fix" the target's position for you (it does "fix" it in 
> relation to the /camera/, so it would count as a targeting sense for weapons 
> mounted on the "server" end, IMO). 
> 
> To put it another way, if a TV camera can be used to attack mentally, why 
> not a NORMAL camera? Are we ready to let people zap off mental attacks 
> through photographs? 
> 
 
The only difference I see is that the picture does not give the current location 
of the target.  If the target is no longer in that location then the picture 
does no good.  Videotaped reply would also be useless since it does not give 
current exact location of the target.  Line of Sight give current exact 
location, Telescopic vision gives current exact location, Live video feeds and 
survailence cameras give current exact location, Mind Scan gives current exact 
location, Photographs, Movies and taped replays do not give current exact 
location.  It comes down to knowing where the target is at the exact point in 
time of the attack.  You could not attack Charleston Heston while watching The 
Omega Man but you couild while watch a live CNN interview with him. 
 
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Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: [Re: Clinging/Climbing] 
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 06:34:13 -0700 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
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My sincere apologies to everyone, especially Donald Tsang. This was supposed to be a 
private email. 
 
Filksinger 
 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org [mailto:owner-champ-l@sysabend.org]On 
> Behalf Of Filksinger 
> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 1998 7:28 PM 
> To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
> Subject: Re: [Re: Clinging/Climbing] 
> 
> 
> Donald Tsang wrote: 
> 
> >>> > By your reasoning, most athletes (or even a human able to run a 100 yard 
> >>> > dash in less than 30 seconds) are impossible. 
> >>>> 
> > >> > Running: power 
> >>> 
> >>> Running is a power with a specific, special caveat that it can be purchased 
> >>> by normal people. 
> >> 
> >>A specific, special caveat that isn't in the rulebook. This is your 
> >>opinion, not a rule. 
> > 
> >Actually, under Characteristics, it _is_ a rule. 
> 
> My mistake. 
> 
> >Rat is wrong much of the 
> >time, but don't jump the gun -- check the HSR/BBB before flaming, please? 
> 
> 1. Most, if not all, of the people on the list correct mistakes they believe 
> they see w/o consulting the book. If you _always_ check the book before 
> correcting someone, then you are an exception, not the rule. Additionally, 
> while I don't have the book with me, I believe the sections I would have 
> checked (the power descriptions) would not have said I was wrong. 
> 
> 2. This was not a flame. There was nothing in it intended to be inflamitory. I 
> stated only (incorrectly, I admit) that Rat was posting an opinion. Not a 
> flame. If I inadvertantly stated as fact something not in the rulebook, I would 
> hope that someone would point out that I had made a mistake. 
> 
> >In any case, wouldn't your message have been more appropriate as private? 
> 
> Why? There was an honest disagreement as to what was and wasn't an official 
> rule. I said nothing intended to be insulting or otherwise inflammitory. 
> 
> Filksinger 
> 
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________ 
> Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
> 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 07:45:23 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 09:46 PM 5/26/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
>If binoculars can help you aim then so can a TV Camera.  What is a TV 
camera but telescopic 
>vision with the advantage usable my other and the limitations OAF, Must 
have Reciever to 
>View, Can only Certain location (what camera is viewing).  In short both 
the binoculars and 
>the TV Camera are the same powers, telecsopic vision.  So if Mental powers 
will work through 
>one (the binoculars) then why won't it work through the other (the TV 
Monitor)? 
 
   A TV camera isn't Telescopic Sight; it's Clairvoyance. 
   Binoculars enhance vision directly, through a lens; a TV camera 
processes it into an electronic signal and makes an separate image of what 
it sees. 
 
>> Look at it this way. Assume you had a weapon that could penetrate any 
barrier, had 
>> unlimited range, and perfect precision in aiming. You could use 
Telescopic Vision to aim 
>> it; that's a scope. You could use a mirror to aim it, though it might be 
difficult. 
>> However, I do not believe that you could use the television image of the 
President on TV 
>> to aim the weapon. A local closed-captioned system, maybe with 
significant penalties, but 
>> not TV. 
> 
>Why Not? Its done with sattelite images and missles, so why not Mental 
Powers? 
 
   Satellite images and missiles cannot be aimed using an image on a 
television, with no other frame of reference.  Missiles and other 
large-scale weapons can be aimed using video cameras, but generally this is 
assisted with computerized sighting systems of varying levels of 
sophistication to give a frame of reference for the image on the screen in 
relation to where the weapon is aiming (that is, the Clairvoyance is bought 
as Targeting). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 07:48:49 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 12:15 PM 5/26/1998 -0500, Bryant Berggren wrote: 
>How about Clairsentience w/Sight (at least), OIF Monitor, Viewing point 
>limited to camera locations (-1/2)? 
> 
>> In short both the binoculars and the TV Camera are the same powers, 
>> telecsopic vision. 
> 
>Not necessarily, as illustrated above ...  
> 
>Furthermore, SFX is everything in HERO.  
 
   Actually, SFX is only half the equation.  The other half is mechanics. 
The Hero System is an integration of pure mechanics and pure SFX, albeit 
with a bit more emphasis to the former than the latter.  (Some examples of 
SFX-based mechanics include the SFX Advantages to Adjustment Powers, NND, 
and Conditional Power.) 
--- 
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   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 07:50:25 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Police Portrayal in Campaigns/ Good and Bad cops 
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At 08:45 PM 5/26/1998 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
>Filksinger wrote: 
>  
>> Personally, I think you did quite nicely with every one of those. I 
might have played them slightly differently, but I think your players  
>were way off base in 
>>  
>> Frankly, I thought your players complains to be so ridiculous that I 
would probably be tempted to find other players, or even temporarily  
>retire, rather than p 
> 
>Perhaps I was not clear that, in all but one instance, I was discussing  
>the reaction of a vocal minority.  I tend to have moderate-sized  
>runs: five to eight players, occasionally up to twelve.  The job of  
>rotating malcontent of the evening is rarely unfilled.  There are three  
>players (the other Champions GMs) who essentially never complain about  
>anything.  There are two or three players who are essentially never  
>content.  The others are somewhere in the middle. 
 
   Maybe you could run an alternate campaign, where the PCs are high-tech 
Federal agents who are assigned to deal with rogue supers....  ;-] 
--- 
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   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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Stainless Steel Rat writes: 
 
> Nah.  Like I said, do not forget to factor in how Running affects leaping 
> distance.  A *fast* sprinter will have at least 10" of Running, and when 
> pushed that goes up to 16". 
 
My bad... that should be 15", not 16".  Rest of the math should be figured 
accordingly. 
 
By the by, as to why pushed Running instead of non-combat... if a long 
jumper went non-combat he is much more likely to fault the jump. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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Joe Mucchiello writes: 
 
> If I may turn the tables on you Rat, strickly speaking, perception is not 
> a skill. 
 
Neither is DEX, but that does not mean that one cannot buy skill levels 
with DEX rolls.  Perception is just another charcteristics roll. 
 
>> IMO, Enhanced Perception only peripherally belongs under Enhanced Senses. 
>> It more logically belongs under Skils along with the variety of other Skill 
>> Levels. 
 
> Or you could just let non-heroics have Powers?  :-) 
 
Sure, no problem with supers having Powers.  It is the non-supers (mages 
and such aside) that normally do not have them. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: [Re: Clinging/Climbing] 
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Filksinger  writes: 
 
>> Running is a power with a specific, special caveat that it can be 
>> purchased by normal people. 
 
> A specific, special caveat that isn't in the rulebook. This is your 
> opinion, not a rule. 
 
Sorry, Filk, Sakura and I independantly pointed out *TWO* different 
references in the book that say otherwise. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
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Ross Rannells writes: 
 
> If binoculars can help you aim then so can a TV Camera. 
 
Well, no.  It is a matter of line of sight. 
 
Can you draw a straight, unobstructed line between your binoculars and the 
target?  Yes. 
 
Can you draw a straight, unobstructed line between your camera and the 
target?  No. 
 
Yes, the camera will allow you to see the target, but it does not give you 
line of sight to that target. 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 15:55:31 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
> Subject: Re: [Re: Clinging/Climbing] 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> Filksinger  writes: 
>  
> >> Running is a power with a specific, special caveat that it can be 
> >> purchased by normal people. 
>  
> > A specific, special caveat that isn't in the rulebook. This is your 
> > opinion, not a rule. 
>  
> Sorry, Filk, Sakura and I independantly pointed out *TWO* different 
> references in the book that say otherwise. 
>  
 
Having read the references to which you refer, no, I can't say that they do say otherwise. They both say that Running and Swimming can be bought, but neither one says that it is a special exception to any rule. Just because it is specifically stated that something can be done does not _necessarilly_ mean that other things cannot. If I said, "You can buy groceries in this store", that does not necessarilly mean that you cannot buy a shotgun. Similarly, just because the rules specifically state that you can buy Running and Swimming, it does not necessarilly follow that you cannot buy other powers. 
 
That is a perfectly valid interpretation (with a single fly in the ointment, Enhanced Senses). Indeed, I might well agree. However, it is not specifically written down anywhere in the rulebook, and is only an opinion as to which of several possible interpretations is right. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 09:09:39 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Dennis C Hwang <dchwang@itsa.ucsf.edu> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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On 26 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> Sakura  writes: 
>  
> [Running] 
> >> Where is this stated?  
> > Characteristics, Hero 4th page 13. 
>  
> Thanks for that reference. 
>   
> [...] 
>  
> > Possibly these athletes have STR, only for leaping (-1)?  There /are/ 
> > differences between that and Superleap... 
>  
> Nah.  Like I said, do not forget to factor in how Running affects leaping 
> distance.  A *fast* sprinter will have at least 10" of Running, and when 
> pushed that goes up to 16".  That factors out to +8", or 16 meters, added 
> to his natural ~2" horizontal leap distance for Strength.  Does 20 meters 
> sound like a world-class long jump to you?  It certainly does to me (I 
> believe the record is ~21 meters). 
 
Hmm.  I think we're confusing some units of distance, here.  21 meters 
would equal, roughly, 70 feet, which I think is far in excess of the world 
record long jump (assuming we're not talking about the triple jump).  I 
thought the record was on the order of 25 *feet*, or thereabouts. 
 
Aside from that, I agree:  this really does obviate the need for normals 
to buy Superleap (although then how would you feel about Superleap: RSR 
(Acrobatics) for cinematic martial artists...?) 
 
;) 
 
--Dennis 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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Filksinger  writes: 
 
> Having read the references to which you refer, no, I can't say that they 
> do say otherwise. They both say that Running and Swimming can be bought, 
> but neither one says that it is a special exception to any rule. 
 
Normals cannot buy Powers.  Normals specifically can buy Running and 
Swimming.  Looks like a specific exception to me. 
 
> Just because it is specifically stated that something can be done does 
> not _necessarilly_ mean that other things cannot. 
 
That is not how Hero mechanics work.  Things work in a particular fashion 
unless specifically excepted.  Normals buying Running and Swimming, for 
instance, or that one can use Dispell as a defensive action but not 
Suppress. 
 
> If I said, "You can buy groceries in this store", that does not 
> necessarilly mean that you cannot buy a shotgun. 
 
I can buy groceries at the local Stop & Shop, but I cannot buy a shotgun 
there. 
 
> Similarly, just because the rules specifically state that you can buy 
> Running and Swimming, it does not necessarilly follow that you cannot buy 
> other powers. 
 
Except for the note found at the start of the Powers section that says that 
heroic normals, such as a modern spy or a fantasy swordsman, can be built 
without Powers. 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 12:55:07 -0400 (EDT) 
From: Michael Surbrook <susano@access.digex.net> 
cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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On 27 May 1998, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> > If I said, "You can buy groceries in this store", that does not 
> > necessarilly mean that you cannot buy a shotgun. 
>  
> I can buy groceries at the local Stop & Shop, but I cannot buy a shotgun 
> there. 
 
And I can walk into the local KMart and buy both groceries *and* a 
shotgun (not that I'ds want to do either at a KMart but...).   
  
<humor> 
"Shop smart, shop SMart! 
</humor> 
 
> > Similarly, just because the rules specifically state that you can buy 
> > Running and Swimming, it does not necessarilly follow that you cannot buy 
> > other powers. 
>  
> Except for the note found at the start of the Powers section that says that 
> heroic normals, such as a modern spy or a fantasy swordsman, can be built 
> without Powers. 
 
Rat.  Look at your last sentence there.  'can be built without powers'. 
Not '*must* be built without powers'.  I personally think the ability for 
heroic normals to buy certain powers is very GM and campaign specific. 
Hero System is rather cinematic in many respects and having normals buy 
such powers as (for example)  Enhanced Perception is hardly unbalancing 
to the game. 
 
*************************************************************************** 
* "'Cause I'm the god of destruction, that's why!" - Susano Orbatos,Orion *  
*               Michael Surbrook / susano@access.digex.net                *  
*        Visit "Surbrook's Stuff' the Hero Games resource site at:        *    
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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Dennis C Hwang writes: 
 
> Hmm.  I think we're confusing some units of distance, here.  21 meters 
> would equal, roughly, 70 feet, which I think is far in excess of the world 
> record long jump (assuming we're not talking about the triple jump).  I 
> thought the record was on the order of 25 *feet*, or thereabouts. 
 
Could be.  I haven't seriously followed track & field since high school. 
But that sounds a heck of a lot more reasonable than what I came up with. 
My personal best was around 15 feet. 
 
Hmmm... maybe a running long jump should be figured as a half-move, with 
the run up to the jump being another half-move?  8" Running for a top class 
jumper, +4" for a world-class push (based on 12- Ego roll) is 12".  Half of 
that for the half-move is 6" (I'm rounding favorably), half again is 3" 
plus half his base leap is a 4" leap.  I get 26.25 feet out of that. 
 
Not bad, and no Superleap necessary. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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Michael Surbrook writes: 
 
>> I can buy groceries at the local Stop & Shop, but I cannot buy a shotgun 
>> there. 
 
> And I can walk into the local KMart and buy both groceries *and* a 
> shotgun (not that I'ds want to do either at a KMart but...). 
 
So the analogy is that building an heroic normal is like shopping at Stop & 
Shop, while building a superhero is like shopping at K-Mart. 
 
"Ma'am, I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to leave the store." 
 
[...] 
 
> Rat.  Look at your last sentence there.  'can be built without powers'. 
 
Yep.  Powers is (usually) unnecessary.  I take that to mean that unless a 
particular effect is a paranormal ability of some sort, Skills and Talents 
will (or at least should) cover it.  And I will look for a way to 
accomplish the effect with Skills and Talents first, resorting to Powers 
only when it is clearly impossible to do it with Skills and Talents. 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 12:12:10 -0500 
To: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins), champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net> 
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers (change the subject once in a while, 
  dammit!) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 11:06 PM 5/27/98 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
>>Besides, there are at least a couple of Powers that normals DO have access to  
>>without gadgetry or magic: a level or two of Shrinking (in the case of 
>>"vertically challenged" people) and Growth (Gigantism). I daresay that some 
>>other examples can be found. 
> 
>Anybody can get UV Vision; they just have to lose their corneas (which are 
>impenetrable to UV radiation). Sure, it's bad not having corneas (largely 
>b/c UV radiation gets into your eyes...), but hey, if you really want it... 
 
As I understand it, humans don't lack UV vision because UV radiation doesn't 
penetrate the eye, but because ultraviolet rays do not fall within the 
spectrum of radiation detectable by the retina. Much like a dog whistle 
creates sound waves of too high frequency to detect, ultraviolet light is 
too high a frequency for human eyes to see. 
 
-- 
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to  
do nothing." -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797) 
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Visit the SoapVox at http://www.io.com/~angilas/soapvox.html 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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Bryant Berggren writes: 
 
> Doesn't it? Is there a place in the BBB that specifically allows you to 
> buy skill levels with ANY non-skill CHAR roll? 
 
Without checking the book, I cannot say for certain.  But skill levels not 
of the combat variety can be purchased for movement powers (they affect 
Turn Mode), so there is a tangental precedent. 
 
Of course, the way I figure it, a 2-point DEX skill level will not affect 
CV, turn order, or DEX-based skills. 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 10:22:40 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:00 AM 5/27/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>Ross Rannells writes: 
> 
>> If binoculars can help you aim then so can a TV Camera. 
> 
>Well, no.  It is a matter of line of sight. 
> 
>Can you draw a straight, unobstructed line between your binoculars and the 
>target?  Yes. 
> 
>Can you draw a straight, unobstructed line between your camera and the 
>target?  No. 
 
   Actually, the answer to this question should be yes; but as I'm sure 
you've realized by now on your own, it's the wrong question. 
   The proper question is: Can you draw an unobstructed line of vision from 
the attacker to the target by way of the visual aid?  With the binoculars, 
the answer is a clear yes; with the TV camera, the answer is no. 
   (The reason I say "line of vision" is that lenses, mirrors, and prisms 
alter the flow of light and thus bend the line of vision.) 
 
>Yes, the camera will allow you to see the target, but it does not give you 
>line of sight to that target. 
 
   Which is still true. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 18:04:47 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> Filksinger  writes: 
>  
> > Having read the references to which you refer, no, I can't say that they 
> > do say otherwise. They both say that Running and Swimming can be bought, 
> > but neither one says that it is a special exception to any rule. 
>  
> Normals cannot buy Powers.  Normals specifically can buy Running and 
> Swimming.  Looks like a specific exception to me. 
 
Only if you start with an assumption, possibly implied but never stated outright, that normals cannot buy powers. Your statement, "Normals cannot buy Powers" is a perfectly good interpretation of the rules, but it is not stated outright. 
 
> > Just because it is specifically stated that something can be done does 
> > not _necessarilly_ mean that other things cannot. 
>  
> That is not how Hero mechanics work.  Things work in a particular fashion 
> unless specifically excepted. 
 
Only if that particular fashion is stated outright in the rules. Otherwise it is an interpretation. If it is not stated outright in the rules, how do you know what the "particular fashion" is? The discussions on this list should prove that the "particular fashion" of how things should work is open to interpretation, or we wouldn't have so many disagreements between reasonably intelligent people. 
 
>Normals buying Running and Swimming, for 
> instance, or that one can use Dispell as a defensive action but not 
> Suppress. 
 
There are specific rules stating what one can or cannot due as a defensive action. They are a bit vague, perhaps, but neither Suppress nor Dispel would normally qualify. Thus, an exception must be stated outright for Dispell. 
  
> > If I said, "You can buy groceries in this store", that does not 
> > necessarilly mean that you cannot buy a shotgun. 
>  
> I can buy groceries at the local Stop & Shop, but I cannot buy a shotgun 
> there. 
 
Which has nothing to do with whether or not the fact that groceries are there necessarily makes shotguns not there. Was this intended to be a serious rebuttal, or was it merely retorical? I find it difficult to believe that it was meant seriously. 
 
I can buy groceries but not guns at Albertsons, but that doesn't mean that the sale of groceries automatically cancels out the sale of guns. I cannot buy groceries at "Bear Arms", but I can buy guns. This  doesn't mean that not being able to buy groceries automatically allows the purchase of guns.  I can buy both at a local K-Mart, but this does not mean that the sale of groceries always implies the ability to buy guns. 
 
Just because X is specifically allowed does not _necessarily_ mean that Y is automatically forbidden. 
 
> > Similarly, just because the rules specifically state that you can buy 
> > Running and Swimming, it does not necessarilly follow that you cannot buy 
> > other powers. 
>  
> Except for the note found at the start of the Powers section that says that 
> heroic normals, such as a modern spy or a fantasy swordsman, can be built 
> without Powers. 
 
I _can_ build a heroic normal without any number of things, such as weapons familiarities, System Operations, or martial arts. That does not mean I cannot used those things if I want. 
 
You _can_ build heroic normals without powers, but that does not mean that you _must_ build heroic normals without powers. "Can" leaves open whether or not other options exist, and _could_ be read to imply that the alternative is also allowed. After all, if heroic normals _must_ be built without powers, why didn't they just say that? 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 18:04:49 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> Filksinger  writes: 
>  
> > Having read the references to which you refer, no, I can't say that they 
> > do say otherwise. They both say that Running and Swimming can be bought, 
> > but neither one says that it is a special exception to any rule. 
>  
> Normals cannot buy Powers.  Normals specifically can buy Running and 
> Swimming.  Looks like a specific exception to me. 
 
Only if you start with an assumption, possibly implied but never stated outright, that normals cannot buy powers. Your statement, "Normals cannot buy Powers" is a perfectly good interpretation of the rules, but it is not stated outright. 
 
> > Just because it is specifically stated that something can be done does 
> > not _necessarilly_ mean that other things cannot. 
>  
> That is not how Hero mechanics work.  Things work in a particular fashion 
> unless specifically excepted. 
 
Only if that particular fashion is stated outright in the rules. Otherwise it is an interpretation. If it is not stated outright in the rules, how do you know what the "particular fashion" is? The discussions on this list should prove that the "particular fashion" of how things should work is open to interpretation, or we wouldn't have so many disagreements between reasonably intelligent people. 
 
>Normals buying Running and Swimming, for 
> instance, or that one can use Dispell as a defensive action but not 
> Suppress. 
 
There are specific rules stating what one can or cannot due as a defensive action. They are a bit vague, perhaps, but neither Suppress nor Dispel would normally qualify. Thus, an exception must be stated outright for Dispell. 
  
> > If I said, "You can buy groceries in this store", that does not 
> > necessarilly mean that you cannot buy a shotgun. 
>  
> I can buy groceries at the local Stop & Shop, but I cannot buy a shotgun 
> there. 
 
Which has nothing to do with whether or not the fact that groceries are there necessarily makes shotguns not there. Was this intended to be a serious rebuttal, or was it merely retorical? I find it difficult to believe that it was meant seriously. 
 
I can buy groceries but not guns at Albertsons, but that doesn't mean that the sale of groceries automatically cancels out the sale of guns. I cannot buy groceries at "Bear Arms", but I can buy guns. This  doesn't mean that not being able to buy groceries automatically allows the purchase of guns.  I can buy both at a local K-Mart, but this does not mean that the sale of groceries always implies the ability to buy guns. 
 
Just because X is specifically allowed does not _necessarily_ mean that Y is automatically forbidden. 
 
> > Similarly, just because the rules specifically state that you can buy 
> > Running and Swimming, it does not necessarilly follow that you cannot buy 
> > other powers. 
>  
> Except for the note found at the start of the Powers section that says that 
> heroic normals, such as a modern spy or a fantasy swordsman, can be built 
> without Powers. 
 
I _can_ build a heroic normal without any number of things, such as weapons familiarities, System Operations, or martial arts. That does not mean I cannot used those things if I want. 
 
You _can_ build heroic normals without powers, but that does not mean that you _must_ build heroic normals without powers. "Can" leaves open whether or not other options exist, and _could_ be read to imply that the alternative is also allowed. After all, if heroic normals _must_ be built without powers, why didn't they just say that? 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
To: ratinox@peorth.gweep.net (Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net&> 
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 14:07:24 -0400 (EDT) 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat writes:  
> > Nah.  Like I said, do not forget to factor in how Running affects leaping  
> > distance.  A *fast* sprinter will have at least 10" of Running, and when  
> > pushed that goes up to 16".  
>   
> My bad... that should be 15", not 16".  Rest of the math should be figured  
> accordingly.  
 
12.5".  Normals pay 4 CPs/1" running over 10". 
 
  Joe 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 18:16:09 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 09:46 PM 5/26/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
>If binoculars can help you aim then so can a TV Camera.  What is a TV 
camera but telescopic 
>vision with the advantage usable my other and the limitations OAF, Must 
have Reciever to 
>View, Can only Certain location (what camera is viewing).  In short both 
the binoculars and 
>the TV Camera are the same powers, telecsopic vision.  So if Mental powers 
will work through 
>one (the binoculars) then why won't it work through the other (the TV 
Monitor)? 
 
Because when I look at a TV monitor, I am seeing glowing pixels on a TV screen, but when I look through binoculars, I am seeing the light coming from the person? Because looking through binoculars tells me exactly where the person is, but looking through a TV camera, at best, allows me to see landmarks and make inferences based upon the camera's supposed location? 
 
>> Look at it this way. Assume you had a weapon that could penetrate any 
barrier, had 
>> unlimited range, and perfect precision in aiming. You could use 
Telescopic Vision to aim 
>> it; that's a scope. You could use a mirror to aim it, though it might be 
difficult. 
>> However, I do not believe that you could use the television image of the 
President on TV 
>> to aim the weapon. A local closed-captioned system, maybe with 
significant penalties, but 
>> not TV. 
> 
>Why Not? Its done with sattelite images and missles, so why not Mental 
Powers? 
 
Because the sattelite images and missile system are combined together into a complex form of Targetting Sense, usable only by the missile. Because, even if I had your sattelite and missile system, I still could not pick up my SuperRifle(TM) with unlimited range and the ability to shoot through anything, and use the image on the sattelite system screen to shoot someone 300 miles away. 
 
Now, if a character were to be designed so as to have, say, Targetting Clairvoyance (SFX: Nervous system wired into camera network), then I would allow this. Not with a normal TV image, because a normal TV image does not allow targetting. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 11:45:41 -0700 (PDT) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net 
Subject: Re: Go Go Godzilla!!! (Spoilers?) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
---Tokyo Mark  wrote: 
> lack of radioactive breath was curious, it's such  a  trademark of 
Big G. 
> As best I could tell he had no flaming breath at all, just breath with 
> fumes that twice caught fire from outside sources. 
 
I didn't really even get that impression.  Both times that there was 
any "flame effect" involved there were also vehicles involved.  I got 
the impression that colliding vehicles were (in true Hollywood 
fashion) exploding spectacularly. 
 
 
> The Godzilla world is pretty interesting.  Telepathy and telekinesis 
are 
> scientific fact.  Radioactivity can create all types of strange 
things. 
> The Destroyer from the last Godzilla movie is roughly human size at 
one 
> point, well, there are a bunch of human sized creatures at least, 
before 
> they merge into the big Destroyer.  Consider the high tech level, the 
> existance of time travel and teleportation (Godzilla v. King 
Ghidorah), 
> and there is alot of room for campaign ideas.  I've thought about 
doing a 
> world with this, but I doubt I could get the group I usually play 
with to 
> forget the silly 70's Godzilla movies. 
 
Well, run with it then.  If the players have the silly 70's movies 
stuck in their minds, I'd use it as an excuse for a lighthearted 
campaign.  Could it really be any sillier than a hard-core "Hong Kong 
Action Flic" campaign?  Besides, some of the siliest games have 
generated some of the best role-play (not to mention, some truely 
classic dialogues and soliloquies). 
 
 
 
== 
 
 
     John Desmarais  <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
=========================================== 
Got a question about the Hero/Champions mailing list? 
Just ask.  Or, scope out www.sysabend.org/champions. Yeah, I know, It's not pretty.  I'll make it look better when 
I have some free time. (Hah!) 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 14:00:55 -0500 
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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On 5/27/98, at 11:54 AM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:  
>> Similarly, just because the rules specifically state that you can buy 
>> Running and Swimming, it does not necessarilly follow that you cannot buy 
>> other powers. 
> 
>Except for the note found at the start of the Powers section that says that 
>heroic normals, such as a modern spy or a fantasy swordsman, can be built 
>without Powers. 
 
Sure, they CAN be; but that does not mean that they MUST be bought without powers. Even Aaron Allston included guidelines for using powers in a heroic campaign in NH. The use of powers in a heroic campaign is not, by any reasonable interpretation of the rules, excluded in normals campaigns. A James Bond campaign would certainly make use of a limited array of powers, for example, as would a pulp campaign. 
 
Uncommon Solutions...when you need a better way! 
http://www.uncommonsolutions.com 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 27 May 1998 15:08:25 -0400 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Joe Mucchiello writes: 
 
>> My bad... that should be 15", not 16".  Rest of the math should be 
>> figured accordingly. 
 
> 12.5".  Normals pay 4 CPs/1" running over 10". 
 
It is a push; he is not paying for it outright.  Most GMs that I know of do 
not factor the cost doubling for pushed Strength, why should anything else 
be treated differently?  Besides, factoring normal maxima cost doublings on 
the fly slows things down unnecessarilly, and is not particularly heroic 
(which pushes are supposed to be). 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 27 May 1998 15:11:03 -0400 
Lines: 30 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
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Filksinger  writes: 
 
> Only if you start with an assumption, possibly implied but never stated 
> outright, that normals cannot buy powers. 
 
Go ahead, buy Flight for yourself, Filk.  Just get up and fly.  Go on, 
nothing is preventing you from doing it, is there? 
 
Yeah, Density Increase.  Quadruple your body mass.  Go on, nothing is 
preventing you from doing it, is there? 
 
Show me your Field, Filk.  You *do* have a Force Field, don't you? 
 
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ which, if exposed due to rupture, should 
                                    \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at. 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 12:39:33 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Jim Dickinson <jdickins@oregonsbest.com> 
Subject: Re: Go Go Godzilla!!! 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:18 PM 5/26/98 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
 
>I liked the new look for Godzilla, but he was way, way too fast and agile. 
>Godzilla isn't something you're supposed to be able to miss when you shoot 
>at him...if you haven't seen the movie, imagine Godzilla with a DCV of 8, 
>rather than somewhere in the negatives (HERO Bestiary pegs Hach-U-Rui, the 
>Godzilla 'homage' at -11 DCV, about right). 
 
I would have thought the same thing.  But I got caught up one night 
watching one of the millions of showings of the old G-zilla flicks on just 
about every cable channel, and was surprised and amused with how many times 
those jet missed with their guns and missiles! 
 
 
|************** Beware of geeks bearing .GIFs ****************| 
                        Jim Dickinson 
                http://www.oregonsbest.com/~jd 
|***************** jdickins@oregonsbest.com ******************| 
 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 19:49:51 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> Filksinger  writes: 
>  
> > Only if you start with an assumption, possibly implied but never stated 
> > outright, that normals cannot buy powers. 
>  
> Go ahead, buy Flight for yourself, Filk.  Just get up and fly.  Go on, 
> nothing is preventing you from doing it, is there? 
>  
> Yeah, Density Increase.  Quadruple your body mass.  Go on, nothing is 
> preventing you from doing it, is there? 
>  
> Show me your Field, Filk.  You *do* have a Force Field, don't you? 
 
I hope you are joking, as if this is intended as a serious argument, you are losing it fast. 
 
Tell you what. You go first. Buy Enhanced Senses (which normals in the real world do have), Lightning Calculator, Defensive Manouver, and Universal Translator. Then I'll buy a Power. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 27 May 1998 16:06:00 -0400 
Lines: 44 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Guy Hoyle writes: 
 
> Sure, they CAN be; but that does not mean that they MUST be bought 
> without powers. 
 
It also does not mean that they must be bought with powers.  If an effect 
can be modeled with skills, use skills. 
 
> Even Aaron Allston included guidelines for using powers in a heroic 
> campaign in NH. 
 
Or at least for certain types of heroic-level martial arts campaigns.  At 
the same time, he also recommends against allowing Powers in realistic 
campaigns. 
 
> The use of powers in a heroic campaign is not, by any reasonable 
> interpretation of the rules, excluded in normals campaigns. A James Bond 
> campaign would certainly make use of a limited array of powers, for 
> example, as would a pulp campaign. 
 
Agreed with the latter, but not the former.  Bond doesn't have any Powers. 
In fact, the Breakfall example in the Extraordinary Skills section is taken 
straight out of the opening sequence of "Moonraker".  Bond has gadgets 
which are built with Powers, but that is a different kettle of fish.  We 
were not talking about gadgets and spells, we were talking about innate 
abilities. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 27 May 1998 16:08:24 -0400 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Filksinger  writes: 
 
> I hope you are joking, as if this is intended as a serious argument, you 
> are losing it fast. 
 
The term is "sarcasm". 
 
> Tell you what. You go first. Buy Enhanced Senses (which normals in the 
> real world do have), Lightning Calculator, Defensive Manouver, and 
> Universal Translator. Then I'll buy a Power. 
 
Excuse me, but I have laid out evidence in support of my point.  Now it is 
your turn. 
 
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--  
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 27 May 1998 16:34:53 -0400 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
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qts  writes: 
 
> More abstractly, the Point of Focus is under someone else's control. 
 
More to the point, when you look through binoculars, you are using your 
senses to perceive the target.  When you look at a monitor you are using 
your senses to perceive the image displayed on the monitor; your senses are 
not being used to perceive the target. 
 
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                                    \ not be touched, inhaled, or looked at. 
 
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X-SMTP: helo vega.iii.com from ajackson@iii.com server @vega.iii.com ip 192.33.187.51 
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 13:44:42 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Reply-To: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
Cc: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Stainless Steel Rat writes: 
  
> More to the point, when you look through binoculars, you are using your 
> senses to perceive the target.  When you look at a monitor you are using 
> your senses to perceive the image displayed on the monitor; your senses are 
> not being used to perceive the target. 
  
Nah, if I have a camera which just displays on its eyepiece exactly what it is 
receiving I can aim it perfectly well.  The problem comes when the camera is 
located at a location other than me.  I'm sure that if a camera had a gun 
attached to it I could aim _that_ gun with the camera (and would in fact have a 
lot of trouble aiming without the camera), but trying to aim an attack from one 
position while seeing from a different position is a challenge at best. 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 13:44:52 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Go Go Godzilla!!! 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 12:39 PM 5/27/1998 -0700, Jim Dickinson wrote: 
>At 10:18 PM 5/26/98 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
> 
>>I liked the new look for Godzilla, but he was way, way too fast and agile. 
>>Godzilla isn't something you're supposed to be able to miss when you shoot 
>>at him...if you haven't seen the movie, imagine Godzilla with a DCV of 8, 
>>rather than somewhere in the negatives (HERO Bestiary pegs Hach-U-Rui, the 
>>Godzilla 'homage' at -11 DCV, about right). 
> 
>I would have thought the same thing.  But I got caught up one night 
>watching one of the millions of showings of the old G-zilla flicks on just 
>about every cable channel, and was surprised and amused with how many times 
>those jet missed with their guns and missiles! 
 
   Think: Range Modifiers!  :-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 15:48:32 -0500 
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id QAA15377 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Re: Line of Sight: 
 
Just how WOULD you represent the ability to affect a target through a video monitor or some other contrivance (not via a recording)? This ability is found from time to time in comics, fiction, etc. Mind Search plus Indirect (for anything but mental powers)? 
 
Uncommon Solutions...when you need a better way! 
http://www.uncommonsolutions.com 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 16:02:39 -0500 
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Cc: champ-l@omg.org 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by beelzebubba.sysabend.org id RAA16039 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On 5/27/98, at 4:06 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:  
 
>Guy Hoyle writes: 
> 
>> Sure, they CAN be; but that does not mean that they MUST be bought 
>> without powers. 
> 
>It also does not mean that they must be bought with powers.  If an effect 
>can be modeled with skills, use skills. 
 
To be fair: if they can be built without powers, then they can be built= 
 with powers, too. Heroic campaigns should be distinguished from realistic= 
 campaigns, I think; a lower point total for the latter. 
 
>> Even Aaron Allston included guidelines for using powers in a heroic 
>> campaign in NH. 
> 
>Or at least for certain types of heroic-level martial arts campaigns.  At 
>the same time, he also recommends against allowing Powers in realistic 
>campaigns. 
 
> 
>> The use of powers in a heroic campaign is not, by any reasonable 
>> interpretation of the rules, excluded in normals campaigns. A James Bond 
>> campaign would certainly make use of a limited array of powers, for 
>> example, as would a pulp campaign. 
> 
>Agreed with the latter, but not the former.  Bond doesn't have any Powers. 
>In fact, the Breakfall example in the Extraordinary Skills section is= 
 taken 
>straight out of the opening sequence of "Moonraker".  Bond has gadgets 
>which are built with Powers, but that is a different kettle of fish.  We 
>were not talking about gadgets and spells, we were talking about innate 
>abilities. 
 
Actually, I wasn't thinking about gadgets. Oddjob certainly had a level or= 
 two of Knockback Resistrance, IIRC. And what about characters afflicted= 
 with a level of Shrinking, Always On? Herve Villechaise' character in MAN= 
 WITH THE GOLDEN GUN certainly had this, as do quite a few people in the= 
 real world.  Certainly there have been people in the real world who would= 
 qualify for a level of Growth, too.  
 
 
Uncommon Solutions...when you need a better way! 
http://www.uncommonsolutions.com 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 27 May 1998 17:05:26 -0400 
Lines: 26 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Anthony Jackson writes: 
 
> Nah, if I have a camera which just displays on its eyepiece exactly what 
> it is receiving I can aim it perfectly well. 
 
I never mentioned the viewfinder.  I said *monitor*.  As in CRT, or maybe 
LCD panel.  Looking at the monitor won't help you a whit trying to aim at 
what the monitor shows. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ If Happy Fun Ball begins to smoke, get 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ away immediately. Seek shelter and cover 
                                    \ head. 
 
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X-SMTP: helo mail.interhop.net from jprins@interhop.net server root@mail.interhop.net ip 204.50.138.29 
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 17:08:27 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Go Go Godzilla!!! 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>>I liked the new look for Godzilla, but he was way, way too fast and agile. 
>>Godzilla isn't something you're supposed to be able to miss when you shoot 
>>at him...if you haven't seen the movie, imagine Godzilla with a DCV of 8, 
>>rather than somewhere in the negatives (HERO Bestiary pegs Hach-U-Rui, the 
>>Godzilla 'homage' at -11 DCV, about right). 
> 
>I would have thought the same thing.  But I got caught up one night 
>watching one of the millions of showings of the old G-zilla flicks on just 
>about every cable channel, and was surprised and amused with how many times 
>those jet missed with their guns and missiles! 
 
Usually they're tossing unguided rockets, especially in the way early ones. 
IOW, they're tossing 'swarm effect' attacks at Godzilla, in a buckshot 
fashion. Of course, there's always range to consider, and the fear 
factor...Godzilla's a walking PRE Attack that doesn't get any better. 
 
<Godzilla roars!> 
Pilot: Aiieeee!!!! <pulls trigger at random> 
<Godzilla smashes building!> 
Tank Gunner: Aaaaahhhh! <pulls trigger prematurely> 
<Godzilla eats a train!*> 
Helicopter Pilot: Eeeeek!! <swerves, spoiling his gunner's shot> 
 
*Godzilla should pick up or destroy at least one train full of people every 
movie. He did it in King of the Monsters, and in Godzilla 1985, and the bit 
worked both times. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!" 
-Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 27 May 1998 17:10:33 -0400 
Lines: 29 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Guy Hoyle writes: 
 
> Just how WOULD you represent the ability to affect a target through a 
> video monitor or some other contrivance (not via a recording)? This 
> ability is found from time to time in comics, fiction, etc. 
 
But only rarely.  More commonly, the medium itself is the medium for the 
power's effect.  In which case you use an fHuge Area of Effect. 
 
Otherwise, Mind Scan is they only way to do it.  Indirect still has range 
restrictions. 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Bryant Berggren" <voxel@theramp.net&> 
        "rossrannells@worldnet.att.net" <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Cc: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "filkhero@usa.net" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Date: Wed, 27 May 98 21:19:35  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Wed, 27 May 1998 00:37:18 -0500, Bryant Berggren wrote: 
 
>At 07:33 AM 5/27/98 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
>> The only difference I see is that the picture does not give the current 
>> location of the target.  If the target is no longer in that location then 
>> the picture does no good.  Videotaped reply would also be useless since it 
>> does not give current exact location of the target. Line of Sight give 
>> current exact location, Telescopic vision gives current exact location, 
>> Live video feeds and survailence cameras give current exact location, 
> 
>No, live video feeds and surveillance cameras give the ILLUSION of current 
>exact location. You're watching news and they cut in with a live news feed. 
>Do you REALLY know exactly where the reporter is? You might be able to 
>deduce this from context, or they might tell you, but that's not the same as 
>knowing for certain. In the end, you're at the mercy of the camera's 
>location -- it could be where it seems to be, or it could be broadcasting 
>from a soundstage beneath the ocean. 
 
More abstractly, the Point of Focus is under someone else's control. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 21:22:39 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
>  
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
>  
> Filksinger  writes: 
>  
> > I hope you are joking, as if this is intended as a serious argument, you 
> > are losing it fast. 
>  
> The term is "sarcasm". 
 
I'll buy that.:) 
 
> > Tell you what. You go first. Buy Enhanced Senses (which normals in the 
> > real world do have), Lightning Calculator, Defensive Manouver, and 
> > Universal Translator. Then I'll buy a Power. 
>  
> Excuse me, but I have laid out evidence in support of my point.  Now it is 
> your turn. 
 
As best I can determine from the above, your evidence is, "Filksinger can't buy it, therefore it is not available to normals." 
 
In response, I pointed out, "SSR cannot buy it, but it is available to normals; therefore, the ability of either one of us to buy it is not sufficient to determine whether or not it should be allowed for normals in a campaign." 
 
Now, if your response meant, "No one in the real world can buy it or be born with it, therefore it isn't available to normals", that is a different matter. In that case, I would point out that the construction in question was intended for a Dark Champions campaign. A Dark Champions campaign is a superhero campaign. In superhero campaings supposedly non-powered heroes do things which cannot be duplicated in the real world. Therefore, allowing them powers, defined as, "Skills which are superior to anyone in the real world", is quite genre, whether they are normals or not. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 21:55:38 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> 
>  
> Stainless Steel Rat writes: 
>   
> > More to the point, when you look through binoculars, you are using your 
> > senses to perceive the target.  When you look at a monitor you are using 
> > your senses to perceive the image displayed on the monitor; your senses are 
> > not being used to perceive the target. 
>   
> Nah, if I have a camera which just displays on its eyepiece exactly what it is 
> receiving I can aim it perfectly well.  The problem comes when the camera is 
> located at a location other than me.  I'm sure that if a camera had a gun 
> attached to it I could aim _that_ gun with the camera (and would in fact have a 
> lot of trouble aiming without the camera), but trying to aim an attack from one 
> position while seeing from a different position is a challenge at best. 
 
Personally, I'd rule that a camera and monitor designed to give exactly 
the same point of view as normal vision would give LOS for purposes 
of mental powers. Additionally, with a bit of practice, a person could use a camera to target if the camera and monitor were set up so as to give a definite point of view to the user, so that he could determine the target's precise location on the screen. 
 
Thus, IR Vision defined as "Little monitors inside my helmet which translate my external IR camera into a view of the outside world" would allow mental powers, a camera on my helmet looking backwards to give 360 degree vision would also allow this, but with practice, and a camera set up just outside my front door with a feed to my bedroom might allow a mental attack, as I know exactly where my front door, the camera, and thus the target is, but only with even more practice. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 27 May 1998 18:07:55 -0400 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Guy Hoyle writes: 
 
> To be fair: if they can be built without powers, then they can be built 
> with powers, too. 
 
No, they cannot.  You do not use one power to simulate another.  Powers are 
used when you go beyond what the skill is capable of accomplishing. 
 
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=AilZ 
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PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ returned to its special container and 
                                    \ kept under refrigeration. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Filksinger  writes: 
 
>> Excuse me, but I have laid out evidence in support of my point.  Now it 
>> is your turn. 
 
> As best I can determine from the above, your evidence is, "Filksinger can't 
> buy it, therefore it is not available to normals." 
 
*sigh* 
 
Maybe you should try reading my ~50Kb worth of recent posts on the subject 
instead of throwing around ad hominem attacks. 
 
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 18:47:39 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
>Woah, woah, woah, go back and read the post before the post you responded 
>to.  I was expanding on the second half of my previous post where I 
>described an invisible (no VPE) character who created images and used fully 
>indirect EBs (IPE) to mess with the players :-) 
> 
>VPE Invisibility was just a lark for the list. 
> 
>And yes, if was a lot of fun. 
 
 
Sorry, I must have missed that it was two different examples. 
 
This makes me ask a question before I use this in my game.  If I make an 
invisible character like this one have indirect attacks can the onlookers 
tell where the power is actually coming from.  My reason is that I want them 
to think the attack comes from other people but if the attack is invisible 
they can't see it at all and if it isn't invisible they should be able to 
tell it came from Mr. Invisible, unless Indirect makes it so you can't tell 
where a power is coming from. 
 
Alan 
 
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From: "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Heroes Lethality 
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 18:51:51 -0500 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Someone writes: 
 
>> >I don't think that the Impairment and Disabling rules do more than give 
a 
>> >GM an excuse to exercise fiat in such matters. 
 
 
Remnant responds facetiously: 
 
 
>> Isn't that all any of the rules do? 
>> 
>> Alan 
 
Robert A. West properly jumps my case for it. 
 
>IMNSHO: *NO*! 
 
<Perfectly valid argument snipped> 
 
 
Remnant asks for forgiveness. 
 
I'm sorry that you didn't realize that I was trying to make a point through 
absurdity.  I was trying to point out that if one rule does nothing but 
allow for GM fiat (which I take to mean acting with no rule support or 
something like that) then why not all of the rules. 
 
Sorry again that I got you all worked up for no good reason. 
 
Alan 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Double Points 
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 19:19:37 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Here is a proposal sure to irritate the traditionalists ;-) 
 
I think all point costs (and experience) in Hero should be doubled.  There 
are three reasons why, presented in least to most important order: 
 
1. It would make much easier some of the fine tuning necessary for balance. 
 I get the impression that there are a lot of items in Hero that cost 1 
point because that was the practical minimum (COM and END notwithstanding). 
 Also, some things cost 3 points, when I gather they should cost 2 1/2 from 
a strict Offense/Defense ratio.  I'm not going to name any, because every 
GM probably has there own pet ones.  This way, some of you will be with me, 
at least until we get into the specifics :-) 
 
2. The GM gains a finer control over experience.  How many sessions have 
you guys felt that the players deserved more than 2, but less than 3 
points?  Some of you seems to have a wide variety of player ability, but in 
11+ years of Hero, I've never had a player deserve a full point more than 
another player. 
 
3. Finally, this would make fine-tuning by campaign not only easier 
mechanically, but would also remove a mental block.  I think people hate to 
go to half-points, although they will when all other possibilities are 
exhausted.  For the kind of balance I've tried to achieve, I just cannot 
get there without extensive use of half points. 
 
A few caveats:  I realize that the change itself might be a little 
traumatic.  For that reason, it would have to occur during an edition 
change.  Thus some of the fine-tuning would need to happen during that 
edition as well.  It is almost assuredly too late to do something like this 
in 5th edition.  Also, this is less helpful for superheroic games, for the 
simple reason that supers are already spending tons of points on super 
abilities--a point here or there in a skill makes little difference.  I'm 
particularly interested in any problems you see that do not relate to one 
of these obvious impediments.   
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 17:43:07 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Go Go Godzilla!!! 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 05:08 PM 5/27/1998 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
><Godzilla roars!> 
>Pilot: Aiieeee!!!! <pulls trigger at random> 
><Godzilla smashes building!> 
>Tank Gunner: Aaaaahhhh! <pulls trigger prematurely> 
><Godzilla eats a train!*> 
>Helicopter Pilot: Eeeeek!! <swerves, spoiling his gunner's shot> 
> 
>*Godzilla should pick up or destroy at least one train full of people every 
>movie. He did it in King of the Monsters, and in Godzilla 1985, and the bit 
>worked both times. 
 
   What, you're mentioning his train-eating, but ignoring the Tokyo Radio 
Tower? 
   Fie!   ;-] 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 19:48:04 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
qts writes 
><snip> I would suggest that the 
>person who is interested in Hero is wanting to move on from another RPG 
>system. I have great difficulty in envisaging anyone taking up Hero 
>'cold'. 
 
My most recent count shows 50+ players in my FH campaigns since 1992.  Only 
2 had previous Hero experience, and about half had previous role-playing 
experience.  Of the remainder, I count 4 who have a strong interest in 
becoming a GM.  They have the interest, but they see a prohibitive amount 
of design.  (Some of the ones with previous role-playing experience had 
never been a GM, but expressed interest in learning to run Hero.  They 
balked at the design work also.)  These are people who really appreciate 
Hero and want to get into more.  A bunch have bought the rules after 
playing in my games. 
 
I had an earlier post on "growing you own players" that provoked no 
interest.  Does anyone else make a strong effort to do this? 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 17:48:34 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 01:44 PM 5/27/1998 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote: 
>Stainless Steel Rat writes: 
>  
>> More to the point, when you look through binoculars, you are using your 
>> senses to perceive the target.  When you look at a monitor you are using 
>> your senses to perceive the image displayed on the monitor; your senses are 
>> not being used to perceive the target. 
>  
>Nah, if I have a camera which just displays on its eyepiece exactly what 
it is 
>receiving I can aim it perfectly well.  The problem comes when the camera is 
>located at a location other than me.  I'm sure that if a camera had a gun 
>attached to it I could aim _that_ gun with the camera (and would in fact 
have a 
>lot of trouble aiming without the camera), but trying to aim an attack 
from one 
>position while seeing from a different position is a challenge at best. 
 
   The situation under discussion was a video camera to a separate monitor; 
this is the first mention I've seen of using a video camera's viewfinder 
(built-in screen) for this purpose. 
   Since the effect in this case is basically the same as using binoculars, 
but is still interrupted electronically, I'd probably give a reduced 
penalty (though other GMs might decide differently, and legitimately so). 
I don't recall and can't find on a casual search what the penalties are for 
firing blind, so I'll reserve specific numbers until I can find it. 
--- 
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   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 17:54:07 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 06:10 PM 5/27/1998 -0400, Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
>Filksinger  writes: 
> 
>>> Excuse me, but I have laid out evidence in support of my point.  Now it 
>>> is your turn. 
> 
>> As best I can determine from the above, your evidence is, "Filksinger can't 
>> buy it, therefore it is not available to normals." 
> 
>*sigh* 
> 
>Maybe you should try reading my ~50Kb worth of recent posts on the subject 
>instead of throwing around ad hominem attacks. 
 
   But what about the rest of Filksinger's post, Rat?  There was much more 
to what he had to say than just the above.  To wit: what about characters 
in "dark vigilante" comics (such as the Batman family of comics) who are 
essentially normals, but who can do things that can't be duplicated in the 
real world, or by any Skill in the HSR? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 27 May 1998 21:27:52 -0400 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Bob Greenwade writes: 
 
>    But what about the rest of Filksinger's post, Rat?  There was much more 
> to what he had to say than just the above. 
 
Yeah, well, when I start seeing what looks to be a personal attack, I tend 
to ignore everything else. 
 
> To wit: what about characters in "dark vigilante" comics (such as the 
> Batman family of comics) who are essentially normals, but who can do 
> things that can't be duplicated in the real world, or by any Skill in the 
> HSR? 
 
Gadets aside, show me something, *anything* that the Batman can do that 
cannot be done with Skills and Talents.  Rather, try to stump me with 
something that cannot be done without Powers. :) 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 20:28:31 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
qts writes: 
>>3. Divide and conquer.  Templates and components are two ways to handle 
>>this.  Actually, Hero already started down this road when with 4th ed., 
by 
>>separating the rules from the Champions material.  I'm saying Hero could 
go 
>>a lot further with this. 
 
>At what cost? The problem I see here is that ideally each little bit 
>should have an example, and the more complex items (eg frameworks) 
>ought to have many. Putting all this in a printed manual would be 
>prohibitively expensive. 
 
I would rather have the components and templates INSTEAD of the full 
fledged examples.  Just include enough examples to show how it works.  For 
example, in the Hero Bestiary, I would rather have 2 pages on claws than 
the same claw presented in full Hero detail on 100+ examples.  Ditto for 
wings, bites, scales, etc.  Why?  Because most components would withstand 
rule changes (whether House or Hero inspired).  Full examples are very 
brittle.  If the software pattern held, the final result would be smaller!  
 
 
>Fortunately, I have a solution: have a manual, much as the HSR is today 
>with a CD with all the extra goodies on it in PDF and HTML formats. 
>This would also allow extensive inexpensive use of colour. 
 
Now we are on the same frequency.  A CD (or on the web) is where most of 
the examples go.  I would say that the examples belong in a database, 
however--not a set format.  Make the database reader such that it can build 
the PDF or HTML (or other) examples, and each can be customized--by 
changing the default components.  I change a claw, it ripples into all the 
examples.  Ambitious?  Yes.  Effective?  Most assuredly. 
 
>Something else occurs to me: I haven't read Champions - I use the HSR 
>and the FH sourcebook, and while the HSR is pretty heavy, the FH 
>sourcebook is a d*mn fine piece of work. So we may be talking from 
>different bases. More examples would have helped. And the presented 
>conversion of the AD&D magic system is incredibly stupid. I'd put in my 
>version <g>, plus a Staffordian (Gloranthan) system, deity-given magic, 
>psionics, plus discussion of more advanced characters (how do you model 
>an arch-mage?) 
 
I really liked the FH sourcebook when I first got it.  And to be fair, I 
couldn't have gotten as far as I have without using it as the spring board. 
 But now it is next to useless to me.  Ditto Companions 1 and 2.  The only 
thing I still directly use is the weapons list (modified), a few spells 
(but completely rewritten), and a handful of optional rules.  Maybe 20 
pages out of 500+.   
 
More examples would have helped in the short-term, but not much.  I mean, 
most of the "class" archetype packages, campaign world, and sample 
characters were useless to me from the start.  On the other hand, the 
racial packages helped out immediately, and I only recently discard them 
for my own (based on the original).  I have gradually grown convinced that 
ALL Hero full-fledged source material grows stale for more most players, 
BECAUSE Hero is meant to be changed.  As you said, it attracts the player 
and GM who want more out of their game. 
 
I think there should be a Hero conversion(s) written for every game system. 
 I'd like to participate in the AD&D one, particularly the Forgotten Realms 
one.  But part of my point is that they do not belong in the main FH 
sourcebook.  Probably one conversion book per game system would be best.  
If the "book" is only a 32 page module in shrink wrap, fine--just keep 
those pages out of the way of those who don't want to see them.  Hero Game 
could probably negotiate the right to do the conversion without any 
trouble.  ("Let's see WoC/TSR.  You have 3 core rule books, plus a handful 
of rules supplements.  You might lose a few sales of those.  OTOH, you have 
literally hundreds of source books and modules for your various worlds.  
And we just made them much more desirable for Hero players.") 
 
As far as archmages go, I currently do not model them any differently than 
any other mage.  My current system seems to handle them.  Elminister, 
currently a 29th level AD&D wizard, would have (level * 20) + 50 = 630 
points in my system.  A little over half of that would be in magic, which 
would give him roughly a 200 point VPP, capable of handling 250 active (or 
more).  And he would have really good rolls with, say, 200 active point 
spells.  He would be almost as effective as he is in the novels.  If he 
says, "fly", the players say "how high." :-)  OTOH, my original FH campaign 
has a similar wizard who was less powerful, but I could not model him on 
2,000 points--a ridiculous amount.  Is there a specific problem with 
archmages that makes them harder to model?  
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 27 May 1998 21:31:40 -0400 
Lines: 34 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
Remnant  writes: 
 
> This makes me ask a question before I use this in my game.  If I make an 
> invisible character like this one have indirect attacks can the onlookers 
> tell where the power is actually coming from. 
 
Technically speaking, "visible" means "the source of the power is obvious". 
It does not necessarilly mean that the power itself is visible -- most 
people cannot see bullets in flight, but they do see the gun, hear it 
firing, smell the burning powder, etc.  The source of the power is obvious. 
 
Indirect makes the source of the power somewhere other than the character. 
 
So to answer the question, yes, the sources of the powers are visible. 
However, those sources are not necessarilly at the same position as the 
invisible character. 
 
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Version: 2.6.3a 
Charset: noconv 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball. 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \  
                                    \  
 
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X-Envelope-Recipient: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How complicated is Champions? 
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 20:32:04 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
You guys want to change the name of this thread to "How complicated FH"?  
We FH fans seem to be the only ones interested.  :-) 
 
Does that mean that Hero is about right for Champions, but complicated for 
other genres? 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 21:25:17 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net> 
CC: filkhero@usa.net, champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Bryant Berggren wrote: 
 
> At 07:33 AM 5/27/98 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
> > The only difference I see is that the picture does not give the current 
> > location of the target.  If the target is no longer in that location then 
> > the picture does no good.  Videotaped reply would also be useless since it 
> > does not give current exact location of the target. Line of Sight give 
> > current exact location, Telescopic vision gives current exact location, 
> > Live video feeds and survailence cameras give current exact location, 
> 
> No, live video feeds and surveillance cameras give the ILLUSION of current 
> exact location. You're watching news and they cut in with a live news feed. 
> Do you REALLY know exactly where the reporter is? You might be able to 
> deduce this from context, or they might tell you, but that's not the same as 
> knowing for certain. In the end, you're at the mercy of the camera's 
> location -- it could be where it seems to be, or it could be broadcasting 
> from a soundstage beneath the ocean. 
> 
 
Agreed, they could say they are broadcasting from the south lawn of the White 
House when actually they are broadcasting from a basement in New York.  If this 
were the case, then the attack directed at the south lawn of the White House 
would fail.  Of course survaillance cameras would pretty useless if they where 
not showing live feeds from the location they are set to observe.  While 
television camera may not give sufficient information, a survaillance camera 
certainly would.  Of course the television camera would give sufficient 
information (as long as they were not lieing) to make a no minus Mind Scan roll 
and if a sufficiently high roll was made on the Mind Scan dice the target would 
be located and could be attacked.  Of  course everything hinges on the 
televisoin brpadcast being live, taped and delayed broadcasts would nullify the 
problem.  This would not just be politicians and men in power, sporting events 
and anything else that people bet on would be prone to egoist interference.  The 
possibilities could make for some interesting scenerios. 
 
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From: ghoyle1@mail.airmail.net 
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To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 21:34:35 -0500 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
From:           	Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
> Guy Hoyle writes: 
>  
> > To be fair: if they can be built without powers, then they can be built 
> > with powers, too. 
>  
> No, they cannot.  You do not use one power to simulate another.  Powers are 
> used when you go beyond what the skill is capable of accomplishing. 
 
I don't really understand your reply in context here, which means I was  
probably less than clear myself.  What I meant was that since they said that  
you can build normal characters WITH powers, they also meant that you can  
build them WITHOUT powers.  If they had meant that you HAD TO build normal  
characters without powers, then they did not say what they meant. 
 
Besides, there are at least a couple of Powers that normals DO have access to  
without gadgetry or magic: a level or two of Shrinking (in the case of "vertically  
challenged" people) and Growth (Gigantism). I daresay that some other  
examples can be found. 
 
Guy 
---------------------------------- 
Guy Hoyle (guyhoyle@iname.com) 
http://web2.airmail.net/ghoyle1/ 
Visit The Gamemaster's Bookshelf 
and the PANGAEA Project! 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 21:52:32 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> At 09:46 PM 5/26/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
> >If binoculars can help you aim then so can a TV Camera.  What is a TV 
> camera but telescopic 
> >vision with the advantage usable my other and the limitations OAF, Must 
> have Reciever to 
> >View, Can only Certain location (what camera is viewing).  In short both 
> the binoculars and 
> >the TV Camera are the same powers, telecsopic vision.  So if Mental powers 
> will work through 
> >one (the binoculars) then why won't it work through the other (the TV 
> Monitor)? 
> 
>    A TV camera isn't Telescopic Sight; it's Clairvoyance. 
>    Binoculars enhance vision directly, through a lens; a TV camera 
> processes it into an electronic signal and makes an separate image of what 
> it sees. 
> 
 
Then what does the zoom on the camera do?A side note: What you see from a 
television screen are photons of light, what you see from through the 
binoculars are photons of light, what you see replected off a mirror are 
photons of light.  Is there some physical difference in light produced by 
phoperesients excited by an electron gun (television), ligth produced by 
impeding the flow of electrons through a wire (light bulb), light produced by 
charging an inert gas (neon light) and light produced in a nuclear fusion 
reaction (sun light).  They are all the same photon particles from what I 
remember of undergrad physics. 
 
> >> Look at it this way. Assume you had a weapon that could penetrate any 
> barrier, had 
> >> unlimited range, and perfect precision in aiming. You could use 
> Telescopic Vision to aim 
> >> it; that's a scope. You could use a mirror to aim it, though it might be 
> difficult. 
> >> However, I do not believe that you could use the television image of the 
> President on TV 
> >> to aim the weapon. A local closed-captioned system, maybe with 
> significant penalties, but 
> >> not TV. 
> > 
> >Why Not? Its done with sattelite images and missles, so why not Mental 
> Powers? 
> 
>    Satellite images and missiles cannot be aimed using an image on a 
> television, with no other frame of reference. 
 
Then how are tow and helfire missles aimed.  The ones I used to write expert 
systems for simply tranlated the movements of the targeting system into 
movements of the missle guidence system.  The tagetting is done by the gunner 
with a video camera, all the computer does is make sure the missle hits the 
spot targetted.  In short the computer has nothing to do with targetting the 
weapon, the computer makes sure the weapon hits what it is targetted at. 
 
> Missiles and other 
> large-scale weapons can be aimed using video cameras, but generally this is 
> assisted with computerized sighting systems of varying levels of 
> sophistication to give a frame of reference for the image on the screen in 
> relation to where the weapon is aiming (that is, the Clairvoyance is bought 
> as Targeting). 
 
As I said before, the computer does no targetting it makes sure the missle is 
in sinc with the dot on the gunners HUD.  Computers simply are not intelligent 
enough to target a weapon, there are some really good stories of some tests 
where they tried to have a computer tatget weapons.  None worked sufficiently 
well to be uf any use in actual combat.  The most advanced FCS in the world, 
AEGIS, still needs human operators for final targeting of weapons. When the 
system is let run on automatic it becomes useless in a matter of minutes due to 
the systems lack of intelligence. 
 
Tieing all this back into Mental Powers is quite easy.  Computers aid in 
guidence not in targetting.  Mental Powers need no guidence only targetting,, 
So once again Mental powers would be usable through a live video feed (given 
sufficient information about the location being viewed) 
 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 22:01:32 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
CC: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
> Ross Rannells writes: 
> 
> > If binoculars can help you aim then so can a TV Camera. 
> 
> Well, no.  It is a matter of line of sight. 
> 
> Can you draw a straight, unobstructed line between your binoculars and the 
> target?  Yes. 
> 
> Can you draw a straight, unobstructed line between your camera and the 
> target?  No. 
> 
> Yes, the camera will allow you to see the target, but it does not give you 
> line of sight to that target. 
> 
 
Neither does Mind Scan, yet it allows you to attack. 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 23:06:27 -0400 (EDT) 
X-Sender: jprins@interhop.net 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Normals with Powers (change the subject once in a while, dammit!) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 1 
 
>Besides, there are at least a couple of Powers that normals DO have access to  
>without gadgetry or magic: a level or two of Shrinking (in the case of 
>"vertically challenged" people) and Growth (Gigantism). I daresay that some 
>other examples can be found. 
 
Anybody can get UV Vision; they just have to lose their corneas (which are 
impenetrable to UV radiation). Sure, it's bad not having corneas (largely 
b/c UV radiation gets into your eyes...), but hey, if you really want it... 
 
I'm fairly sure that most people could come up with limited forms of 
Resistant Defenses (in the form of calluses). The cheapest level of Missile 
Deflection is certainly a 'real-world' power you can 'learn'. 
 
Granted, that's not many powers, but they are powers... 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!" 
-Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 22:08:57 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
CC: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
 
>    The proper question is: Can you draw an unobstructed line of vision from 
> the attacker to the target by way of the visual aid?  With the binoculars, 
> the answer is a clear yes; with the TV camera, the answer is no. 
>    (The reason I say "line of vision" is that lenses, mirrors, and prisms 
> alter the flow of light and thus bend the line of vision.) 
 
  Binoculars also use lenses to alter the flow of light so do glasses, sun 
glasses, mirrors, windows, water and even air temperature effect refaction 
gradients.  So by this arguement anything that significantly effects the 
refraction gradient of light will block Mental Powers.  Which means binoculars 
would block Mental Powers.  I think we have all agreed that this simply is not 
the case. 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 22:19:35 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
CC: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
> qts  writes: 
> 
> > More abstractly, the Point of Focus is under someone else's control. 
> 
> More to the point, when you look through binoculars, you are using your 
> senses to perceive the target.  When you look at a monitor you are using 
> your senses to perceive the image displayed on the monitor; your senses are 
> not being used to perceive the target. 
> 
 
Either way its photons of light impacting on the rods and cones in your eye. 
Causes them to surpass their threshold value and fire.  Sending a signal along 
your optical nerves to the optical reception centers in the baran where your 
neural nets reconstruct the various objects and context.  This is then passed 
onto the mind where it is all interpreted and decidions are made about what is 
being viewed.  There is no difference in physical or cognitve responces to the 
stimuli.  The only difference is the context that our mind puts the stimuli 
into.  Your sence of sight is acting and reacting exactly the same in either 
case.  People who view television for the first time have very interesting 
reactions to what they see and how their mind interprets it, because they don't 
ahve the contextual mechanisms to understand what a television is.  So they put 
waht they are viewing on the televisoin in the same context of everything else 
they seen, ie line of sight. 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 22:23:32 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
CC: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 5 
 
 
 
Stainless Steel Rat wrote: 
 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> 
> Anthony Jackson writes: 
> 
> > Nah, if I have a camera which just displays on its eyepiece exactly what 
> > it is receiving I can aim it perfectly well. 
> 
> I never mentioned the viewfinder.  I said *monitor*.  As in CRT, or maybe 
> LCD panel.  Looking at the monitor won't help you a whit trying to aim at 
> what the monitor shows. 
> 
 
Oh really, tell that to the A-10 pilots who used the IR systems on their Maveric 
Missiles so effectively in the gulf war.  So you can't aim a weapon through a 
monitor.  I'm sure the Iraqi Republican Guard wishes that were true. 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 22:34:52 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
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X-UID: 7 
 
 
 
Filksinger wrote: 
 
> At 09:46 PM 5/26/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
> >If binoculars can help you aim then so can a TV Camera.  What is a TV 
> camera but telescopic 
> >vision with the advantage usable my other and the limitations OAF, Must 
> have Reciever to 
> >View, Can only Certain location (what camera is viewing).  In short both 
> the binoculars and 
> >the TV Camera are the same powers, telecsopic vision.  So if Mental powers 
> will work through 
> >one (the binoculars) then why won't it work through the other (the TV 
> Monitor)? 
> 
> Because when I look at a TV monitor, I am seeing glowing pixels on a TV screen, but when I look through binoculars, I am seeing the light coming from the person? Because looking through binoculars tells me exactly where the person is, but looking through a TV camera, at best, allows me to see landmarks and make inferences based upon the camera's supposed location? 
 
Photons of light are light, whether they are those reflected off a person or those given off by execited phospers in a cathode ray tube.  It's still light 
 
> >> Look at it this way. Assume you had a weapon that could penetrate any 
> barrier, had 
> >> unlimited range, and perfect precision in aiming. You could use 
> Telescopic Vision to aim 
> >> it; that's a scope. You could use a mirror to aim it, though it might be 
> difficult. 
> >> However, I do not believe that you could use the television image of the 
> President on TV 
> >> to aim the weapon. A local closed-captioned system, maybe with 
> significant penalties, but 
> >> not TV. 
> > 
> >Why Not? Its done with sattelite images and missles, so why not Mental 
> Powers? 
> 
> Because the sattelite images and missile system are combined together into a complex form of Targetting Sense, usable only by the missile. Because, even if I had your sattelite and missile system, I still could not pick up my SuperRifle(TM) with unlimited range and the ability to shoot through anything, and use the image on the sattelite system screen to shoot someone 300 miles away. 
> 
 
Why not?  If your SuperRifle(TM) is hooked into the system why couldn't you target it that way.  The B in ICBM stands for Ballistic, meaning an archin tragectory.  ICBM are targetted using satelites yet the use ballistic tragectory just like your SuperRifle(TM).  I see not difference here. 
 
> Now, if a character were to be designed so as to have, say, Targetting Clairvoyance (SFX: Nervous system wired into camera network), then I would allow this. Not with a normal TV image, because a normal TV image does not allow targetting. 
> 
 
Why Not?  A-10 pilots used the camera images from their Maveric missles to fly their planes by at night during desert storm and they used those same images off a TV monitor to target the missiles.  Tow and Hellfire missiles are targetted exactly the same way. 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 22:42:10 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: qts <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
CC: Bryant Berggren <voxel@theramp.net&> 
        "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "filkhero@usa.net" <filkhero@usa.net> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
X-Status:  
X-Keywords: 
X-UID: 8 
 
 
 
qts wrote: 
 
> On Wed, 27 May 1998 00:37:18 -0500, Bryant Berggren wrote: 
> 
> >At 07:33 AM 5/27/98 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
> >> The only difference I see is that the picture does not give the current 
> >> location of the target.  If the target is no longer in that location then 
> >> the picture does no good.  Videotaped reply would also be useless since it 
> >> does not give current exact location of the target. Line of Sight give 
> >> current exact location, Telescopic vision gives current exact location, 
> >> Live video feeds and survailence cameras give current exact location, 
> > 
> >No, live video feeds and surveillance cameras give the ILLUSION of current 
> >exact location. You're watching news and they cut in with a live news feed. 
> >Do you REALLY know exactly where the reporter is? You might be able to 
> >deduce this from context, or they might tell you, but that's not the same as 
> >knowing for certain. In the end, you're at the mercy of the camera's 
> >location -- it could be where it seems to be, or it could be broadcasting 
> >from a soundstage beneath the ocean. 
> 
> More abstractly, the Point of Focus is under someone else's control. 
> qts 
> 
> Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
Are you saying that if the Egoist is control of the survaillence camera then they 
could use their Mental Powers but if someone else controls the camera they 
can't.  Woundn't Usuable By Others solve this problem or am I missing something 
here. 
 
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Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 20:58:04 -0700 (PDT) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net 
Subject: Re: How complicated is Champions? 
To: Hero Mail List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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---Melinda and Steven Mitchell <mdmitche@advicom.net> wrote: 
> 
> You guys want to change the name of this thread to "How complicated 
FH"?  
> We FH fans seem to be the only ones interested.  :-) 
>  
> Does that mean that Hero is about right for Champions, but 
complicated for 
> other genres? 
 
Well, it's strength is certainly the superhero genre, but I've never 
felt it was too complicated for other genres (although I've never 
tried to a do something like Toon with it). 
 
As for why FH comes up so much - a couple of reasons.  One, other than 
Champions, it's the genre that has gotten the most publisher support.  
Also, most games get their start with D&D or AD&D, so when you're 
trying to convert players FH is a pretty good route to take - you get 
the Hero rules, but a setting that's more or less familiar to the 
players.  If the only system you know is (A)D&D, just by nature of 
being different, Hero can seem complicated (actually, I don't think 
it's really a problem with seeming complicated, but seeming daunting - 
the whole idea of "you can build whatever kind of character you want" 
can really throw people who think in terms of "roll some dice, pick a 
class, pick a race, etc...) 
 
 
 
 
== 
 
 
     John Desmarais  <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
===================================================== 
Got a question about the Hero/Champions mailing list? 
Just ask.  Or, scope out www.sysabend.org/champions.  
========= Now featuring - Cardboard Heroes. ========= 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 04:32:48 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
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> From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
>  
>  
>  
> Filksinger wrote: 
>  
<snip> 
> > Because when I look at a TV monitor, I am seeing glowing pixels on a TV screen, but when I look through binoculars, I am seeing the light coming from the person? Because looking through binoculars tells me exactly where the person is, but looking through a TV camera, at best, allows me to see landmarks and make inferences based upon the camera's supposed location? 
>  
> Photons of light are light, whether they are those reflected off a person or those given off by execited phospers in a cathode ray tube.  It's still light 
 
Yes, but the light is not the issue. If you look through binoculars, you see the target. If you look at a television screen, you see a picture of the target that does not necessarily have any connection to the actual location of the target. One tells you where the target is, not only an absolute sense (He is in the Oval Office), but in a relative sense as well (he is to my right, over my head, exactly there). The other does not. 
 
If I look through binoculars at someone, I know exactly where they are. If I look through a TV screen at someone, I do not. 
 
<snip> 
> > Because the sattelite images and missile system are combined together into a complex form of Targetting Sense, usable only by the missile. Because, even if I had your sattelite and missile system, I still could not pick up my SuperRifle(TM) with unlimited range and the ability to shoot through anything, and use the image on the sattelite system screen to shoot someone 300 miles away. 
> > 
>  
> Why not?  If your SuperRifle(TM) is hooked into the system why couldn't you target it that way.  The B in ICBM stands for Ballistic, meaning an archin tragectory.  ICBM are targetted using satelites yet the use ballistic tragectory just like your SuperRifle(TM).  I see not difference here. 
 
_IF_ my SR was hooked into the system, you would be correct. However, I am not talking about if it was part of the system. That would give it the same Targetting Sense as the missile. I am talking about looking at a TV screen, and knowing by looking at the screen how to aim a weapon in my hands. Unless I know exactly what relation in space the camera has to me, that is impossible. 
 
My brain is not hooked into the system, so I cannot use the cameras as a Targeting Sense. 
 
> > Now, if a character were to be designed so as to have, say, Targetting Clairvoyance (SFX: Nervous system wired into camera network), then I would allow this. Not with a normal TV image, because a normal TV image does not allow targetting. 
> > 
>  
> Why Not?  A-10 pilots used the camera images from their Maveric missles to fly their planes by at night during desert storm and they used those same images off a TV monitor to target the missiles.  Tow and Hellfire missiles are targetted exactly the same way. 
 
Yes, by using a system where what the camera and missile were linked, so that what the camera was pointed at was what was hit. Are you linked to CNN cameras, so that you can, just by looking at your TV, tell exactly where people in the picture are in relation to you? That is what is needed for Targetting, whether or not you use a weapon or mental powers. 
 
If your camera is set up so that a man, walking into the room, can, solely by looking at the screen, aim his super gun and hit a man standing by the camera, then it can be used as a targetting sense. TV does not meet this criteria. You cannot walk into a video store, see a live broadcast on the television, aim your supergun, and expect to hit the reporter hundreds or thousands of miles away. All of your examples are targetting systems, and looking at the monitor you know where the target is. A television camera doesn't meet the criteria. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
 
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From: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 00:51:38 -0400 (EDT) 
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>  
>Oh really, tell that to the A-10 pilots who used the IR systems on their Maveric 
>Missiles so effectively in the gulf war.  So you can't aim a weapon through a 
>monitor.  I'm sure the Iraqi Republican Guard wishes that were true. 
 
   I think you're completely missing the point here..... 
 
 An A-10 pilot can aim his weapons at a target he sees on a TV screen. 
If you place a television set in front of the plane and tune it to the 
Tonight Show, he cannot target Jay Leno through it. 
 
                                        Daniel Pawtowski 
  
 
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From: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 00:53:03 -0400 
Reply-To: "John Desmarais" <John.Desmarais@ibm.net> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
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On Thu, 28 May 1998 00:51:38 -0400 (EDT), Daniel Pawtowski wrote: 
 
>>  
>>Oh really, tell that to the A-10 pilots who used the IR systems on their Maveric 
>>Missiles so effectively in the gulf war.  So you can't aim a weapon through a 
>>monitor.  I'm sure the Iraqi Republican Guard wishes that were true. 
> 
>   I think you're completely missing the point here..... 
> 
> An A-10 pilot can aim his weapons at a target he sees on a TV screen. 
>If you place a television set in front of the plane and tune it to the 
>Tonight Show, he cannot target Jay Leno through it. 
 
Are you sure about that? Just aim for the chin.  : ) 
 
 
 
     John Desmarais  <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
===================================================== 
Got a question about the Hero/Champions mailing list? 
Just ask.  Or, scope out www.sysabend.org/champions.  
========= Now featuring - Cardboard Heroes. ========= 
 
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Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 01:48:23 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
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In a message dated 98-05-27 22:56:11 EDT, you write: 
 
> > 
>  >    A TV camera isn't Telescopic Sight; it's Clairvoyance. 
>  >    Binoculars enhance vision directly, through a lens; a TV camera 
>  > processes it into an electronic signal and makes an separate image of 
what 
>  > it sees. 
>  > 
>   
>  Then what does the zoom on the camera do?A side note: What you see from a 
>  television screen are photons of light, what you see from through the 
>  binoculars are photons of light, what you see replected off a mirror are 
>  photons of light.  Is there some physical difference in light produced by 
>  phoperesients excited by an electron gun (television), ligth produced by 
>  impeding the flow of electrons through a wire (light bulb), light produced  
> by 
>  charging an inert gas (neon light) and light produced in a nuclear fusion 
>  reaction (sun light).  They are all the same photon particles from what I 
>  remember of undergrad physics. 
 
The thing to keep in mind here is that Line of Sight means that the attacker 
has to be able to *detect* his/her target.  (see HSR pg55)  Looking at an 
image of the target on a television screen does not allow the attacker to 
detect the target, only the image on the screen.  Try using the sense of smell 
on a target via a tv screen. 
Another way to think of it might be to think of using a string to represent 
the sense you are using to get your LoS.  To establish LoS you would connect 
that piece of string from the attacker directly to the target.  If the 
attacker couldn't see (detect) through a particular barrier, than the string 
stops short of the target, and LoS cannot be established.  If the attacker 
connect the string, meaning he could detect the target, then LoS has been 
established, and the attacker can fire away.  
If the attacker is looking at a tv image of the target, the string goes from 
the attacker to the screen and stops.  Normal sight does not allow for the 
attacker to use the sense of Sight along the path of photons in the tube, and 
then along electrons through the wires, and then along microwaves to the 
television station, and then along etc.    
Again, we're talking about base level of mental powers.  If a player wanted to 
be able to attack targets seen on tv screens, it can be done, but it's going 
to be messy and expensive.  
 
'Lynx 
 
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Go Go Godzilla!!! (Spoilers?) 
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 16:35:22 +1000 
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>  
> Well, run with it then.  If the players have the silly 70's movies 
> stuck in their minds, I'd use it as an excuse for a lighthearted 
> campaign.  Could it really be any sillier than a hard-core "Hong Kong 
> Action Flic" campaign?  Besides, some of the siliest games have 
> generated some of the best role-play (not to mention, some truely 
> classic dialogues and soliloquies). 
>  
>  
>  
 
 
Indeedy. My 'nexan, texus' campaign (about a bunch of aliens  
who come to earth and act like 'natives'- i.e. tv stereotype rednecks) 
was the first time i managed to coax extended dialogue from two of my newer 
players. . . 
 
 
 
> == 
>  
>  
>      John Desmarais  <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
> =========================================== 
> Got a question about the Hero/Champions mailing list? 
> Just ask.  Or, scope out www.sysabend.org/champions. Yeah, I know, It's 
not pretty.  I'll make it look better when 
> I have some free time. (Hah!) 
> _________________________________________________________ 
> DO YOU YAHOO!? 
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
>  
 
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers (change the subject once in a while, dammit!) 
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 17:07:14 +1000 
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> >Besides, there are at least a couple of Powers that normals DO have 
access to  
> >without gadgetry or magic: a level or two of Shrinking (in the case of 
> >"vertically challenged" people) and Growth (Gigantism). I daresay that 
some 
> >other examples can be found. 
>  
> Anybody can get UV Vision; they just have to lose their corneas (which 
are 
> impenetrable to UV radiation). Sure, it's bad not having corneas (largely 
> b/c UV radiation gets into your eyes...), but hey, if you really want 
it... 
>  
 
erm, plus you need to grow a set of cones and rods and stuff. . . 
as a side-note some have suggested that those animals that see in other 
spectra have uv or ir plumeige. ..  
 
 
> I'm fairly sure that most people could come up with limited forms of 
> Resistant Defenses (in the form of calluses). The cheapest level of 
Missile 
> Deflection is certainly a 'real-world' power you can 'learn'. 
>  
> Granted, that's not many powers, but they are powers... 
>  
> 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
- 
> "FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!" 
> -Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38 
> 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
- 
> John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
> jprins@interhop.net 
>  
 
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Reply-To: <filkhero@usa.net> 
From: "Filksinger" <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: "Champions" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 00:47:30 -0700 
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> From: Ross Rannells 
>  
<snip> 
> > 
> > Yes, the camera will allow you to see the target, but it does not give you 
> > line of sight to that target. 
> > 
>  
> Neither does Mind Scan, yet it allows you to attack. 
 
Mind Scan is a Targeting Sense, and as such does give you "line of sight" to the target. 
 
Filksinger 
 
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Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 02:53:38 -0500 (EST) 
From: Tokyo Mark <bastet@iquest.net> 
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Subject: Re: Go Go Godzilla!!! (Spoilers?) 
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On Thu, 28 May 1998, happyelf wrote: 
> >  
> > Well, run with it then.  If the players have the silly 70's movies 
> > stuck in their minds, I'd use it as an excuse for a lighthearted 
> > campaign.  Could it really be any sillier than a hard-core "Hong Kong 
> > Action Flic" campaign?  Besides, some of the siliest games have 
> > generated some of the best role-play (not to mention, some truely 
> > classic dialogues and soliloquies). 
> >  
 
Actually I'm just finishing up a relatively comedic period Hong Kong 
action campaign.  I don't actually need an excuse for a lighthearted 
campaign, with on exception that's about all I've run.  Even the one Dark 
Champions game had some over the top, comedic elements.  As a result I'm 
pretty much burned out on comedy. 
 
> Indeedy. My 'nexan, texus' campaign (about a bunch of aliens  
> who come to earth and act like 'natives'- i.e. tv stereotype rednecks) 
> was the first time i managed to coax extended dialogue from two of my newer 
> players. . . 
 
Well, if I do yet another comedy campaign, it'll probably draw heavily 
upon Japanese pro wrestling.  Anything that produces moves likes the 
Thunderfire Powerbomb, Destiny Hammer, Northern Lights Bomb, and Japanese 
Ocean Cyclone Suplex, groups named Marine Wolves, Jungle Jack, and The 
Evil Alliance, and wrestlers like Dump Matsumoto, The Great Muta, Jushin 
(Thunder) Liger, and Commando Bolshoi, has alot going for it.  The funny 
thing is Japanese pro wrestling generally has a much lower amount of 
comedy than US wrestling.  I'd still have to decide what type of campaign 
to make it, though weird supers comes to mind. 
 
 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers (change the subject once in a while, dammit!) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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>> Anybody can get UV Vision; they just have to lose their corneas (which are 
>> impenetrable to UV radiation). Sure, it's bad not having corneas (largely 
>> b/c UV radiation gets into your eyes...), but hey, if you really want it... 
 
>erm, plus you need to grow a set of cones and rods and stuff. . . 
 
No, apparantly the 'normal' human retina is capable of seeing into the 
ultraviolet. It's just that the cornea blocks UV radiation. Strange but true. 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!" 
-Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers (change the subject once in a while,  dammit!) 
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>>Anybody can get UV Vision; they just have to lose their corneas (which are 
>>impenetrable to UV radiation). Sure, it's bad not having corneas (largely 
>>b/c UV radiation gets into your eyes...), but hey, if you really want it... 
> 
>As I understand it, humans don't lack UV vision because UV radiation doesn't 
>penetrate the eye, but because ultraviolet rays do not fall within the 
>spectrum of radiation detectable by the retina. Much like a dog whistle 
>creates sound waves of too high frequency to detect, ultraviolet light is 
>too high a frequency for human eyes to see. 
 
Only one way to find out for sure, neh? Have your corneas replaced with 
UV-transparant prosthesis. That's how they found out humans could see UV in 
the first place, IIRC. Anybody got a book on optometry to check this one 
out? I heard it from my brother when he was in medschool, and have no reason 
to doubt him on the matter... 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!" 
-Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 06:30:11 -0700 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Double Points 
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At 07:19 PM 5/27/1998 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
>Here is a proposal sure to irritate the traditionalists ;-) 
> 
>I think all point costs (and experience) in Hero should be doubled. 
 
   Actually, I've tried something like this.  I've spent a period of time 
in which I worked with half-points, and even went down to one or two 
decimal places during character construction.  I've been known to give out 
half experience points. 
   Of these, the last is the only one I've kept, because it's the only one 
that seems to make a practical difference.  I do allow half-points to be 
spent on COM and END, and I might allow half-points to be spent on Favors 
by characters who are Well Connected. 
   In short, while I do like your idea as an occasional house rule (and I'd 
be intrigued to play in a campaign that uses it, just to see how it works 
out), I don't think it'd be practical as a change in the published rules. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 06:34:14 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Comedy Campaigns 
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At 02:53 AM 5/28/1998 -0500, Tokyo Mark wrote: 
>Well, if I do yet another comedy campaign, it'll probably draw heavily 
>upon Japanese pro wrestling.  Anything that produces moves likes the 
>Thunderfire Powerbomb, Destiny Hammer, Northern Lights Bomb, and Japanese 
>Ocean Cyclone Suplex, groups named Marine Wolves, Jungle Jack, and The 
>Evil Alliance, and wrestlers like Dump Matsumoto, The Great Muta, Jushin 
>(Thunder) Liger, and Commando Bolshoi, has alot going for it.  The funny 
>thing is Japanese pro wrestling generally has a much lower amount of 
>comedy than US wrestling.  I'd still have to decide what type of campaign 
>to make it, though weird supers comes to mind. 
 
   It sounds like you could do something based on some of the old 
Hanna-Barbera superhero cartoons of the late '60s, where a group of heroes 
(in this case, Japanese pro wrestlers on tour) would stumble across some 
teenager in an improbable situation every week and take care of it. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 07:02:54 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 09:52 PM 5/27/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>    A TV camera isn't Telescopic Sight; it's Clairvoyance. 
>>    Binoculars enhance vision directly, through a lens; a TV camera 
>> processes it into an electronic signal and makes an separate image of what 
>> it sees. 
> 
>Then what does the zoom on the camera do?A side note: What you see from a 
>television screen are photons of light, what you see from through the 
>binoculars are photons of light, what you see replected off a mirror are 
>photons of light.  Is there some physical difference in light produced by 
>phoperesients excited by an electron gun (television), ligth produced by 
>impeding the flow of electrons through a wire (light bulb), light produced by 
>charging an inert gas (neon light) and light produced in a nuclear fusion 
>reaction (sun light).  They are all the same photon particles from what I 
>remember of undergrad physics. 
 
   It's not a physical difference that makes the difference.  It's a 
logistical difference.   In the case of binoculars or a mirror, the photons 
are coming from the target.  In the case of a television screen, the 
photons are coming from a television screen. 
 
>>    Satellite images and missiles cannot be aimed using an image on a 
>> television, with no other frame of reference. 
> 
>Then how are tow and helfire missles aimed.  The ones I used to write expert 
>systems for simply tranlated the movements of the targeting system into 
>movements of the missle guidence system.  The tagetting is done by the gunner 
>with a video camera, all the computer does is make sure the missle hits the 
>spot targetted.  In short the computer has nothing to do with targetting the 
>weapon, the computer makes sure the weapon hits what it is targetted at. 
 
   This is done by providing other frames of reference.  In the case of 
missile guidance, that frame of reference is provided by the expert systems 
of the type that you used to write.  The gunner isn't just looking at a 
video screen and shooting out the window, is he?  No, he's not really 
targeting the weapon himself, but telling the computer where to target -- 
otherwise, how does the computer know where it's supposed to hit? 
 
>> Missiles and other 
>> large-scale weapons can be aimed using video cameras, but generally this is 
>> assisted with computerized sighting systems of varying levels of 
>> sophistication to give a frame of reference for the image on the screen in 
>> relation to where the weapon is aiming (that is, the Clairvoyance is bought 
>> as Targeting). 
> 
>As I said before, the computer does no targetting it makes sure the missle is 
>in sinc with the dot on the gunners HUD.  Computers simply are not 
intelligent 
>enough to target a weapon, there are some really good stories of some tests 
>where they tried to have a computer tatget weapons.  None worked sufficiently 
>well to be uf any use in actual combat.  The most advanced FCS in the world, 
>AEGIS, still needs human operators for final targeting of weapons. When the 
>system is let run on automatic it becomes useless in a matter of minutes 
due to 
>the systems lack of intelligence. 
 
   I think you're using the word "targeting" in a different sense than that 
used in the Hero System.  To "target" something in the Hero System doesn't 
mean to decide what to aim at; it means finding that target, once it's been 
aimed at, and hopefully scoring a hit. 
   From what I gather on the above, your systems use human operators to 
decide where something should be aimed.  But they're not just using video 
cameras to see what the terrain looks like, and judging blindly.  At the 
very least, I would imagine that there are some sort of cross-hairs on the 
screen that show what the weapon will hit -- and that is precisely the sort 
of frame of reference I'm talking about. 
 
>Tieing all this back into Mental Powers is quite easy.  Computers aid in 
>guidence not in targetting.  Mental Powers need no guidence only targetting,, 
>So once again Mental powers would be usable through a live video feed (given 
>sufficient information about the location being viewed) 
 
   The only real fallacy in this paragraph is the misuse (as it were) of 
the word "targeting."  In the real-world applications that you're used to, 
computers do aid only in guidance and not in targeting.  Given the 
different meaning of the word "targeting" in the Hero System, however, 
guidance and targeting become essentially the same thing, rendering the 
second statement nonsensical and what follows it just incorrect. 
   Besides all that, the missile guidance systems discussed above all work 
on a frame of reference relative to the weapon.  The operator could be 100 
feet from the weapon, or 100 miles; it's all the same to him, because he's 
not physically interacting with it.  In the case of a mentalist, his brain 
is the weapon, so he needs a frame of reference relative to himself.  Now, 
if it were possible to have some sort of video-based guidance system that 
would show a mentalist exactly where his target is in relation to himself 
and where he's aiming his mental power, then you'd have something. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
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Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 07:06:43 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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At 10:08 PM 5/27/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
> 
>>    The proper question is: Can you draw an unobstructed line of vision from 
>> the attacker to the target by way of the visual aid?  With the binoculars, 
>> the answer is a clear yes; with the TV camera, the answer is no. 
>>    (The reason I say "line of vision" is that lenses, mirrors, and prisms 
>> alter the flow of light and thus bend the line of vision.) 
> 
>  Binoculars also use lenses to alter the flow of light so do glasses, sun 
>glasses, mirrors, windows, water and even air temperature effect refaction 
>gradients.  So by this arguement anything that significantly effects the 
>refraction gradient of light will block Mental Powers.  Which means 
binoculars 
>would block Mental Powers.  I think we have all agreed that this simply is 
not 
>the case. 
 
   Go back and re-read what I wrote. 
   Rat used the simple word "line."  I was modifying that to "line of 
vision" for the very reason you point out -- everything you list above 
either reflects or refracts light.  "Line of vision" takes that into 
account.  (And isn't that term basically synonymous with "line of sight"?) 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Reply-To: <jonesmj@topaz.cqu.edu.au> 
From: "happyelf" <cgtmljon@pronet.net.au> 
To: <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers (change the subject once in a while, dammit!) 
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 00:38:54 +1000 
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> >erm, plus you need to grow a set of cones and rods and stuff. . . 
>  
> No, apparantly the 'normal' human retina is capable of seeing into the 
> ultraviolet. It's just that the cornea blocks UV radiation. Strange but 
true. 
>  
 
hmm. . . . i really dunno about this. we did some basis psysiology along 
with  
our sensory neural stuff and it's really like this(pertty much): 
 
rods which detect low color, but good in low light 
 
cones of three sorts which detect primary colors.  
 
propensity of cones towards the central area.  
 
i suppose the cones could detect uv but it's much more 
likely to be some sorta funky backwards doplet thing.  . 
 
 
> 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
- 
> "FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!" 
> -Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38 
> 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
- 
> John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
> jprins@interhop.net 
>  
 
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Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 08:46:59 -0600 
From: Curtis Gibson <mhoram@relia.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: We got a joke out... 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Greetings all, 
 
A week or so ago, I mentioned that I was going to collect the paradoies 
of Microsoft; where do you want to go today that popped up here and 
submit them Rec.humor.funny if I hadn't heard anyone saying nay. I heard 
nothing back, and submitted. 
 
It was accepted. 
 
The title I gave it was: Where shall we go.  
I attributed the list as a whole. 
 
Here is the acceptance letter. 
> 
 
I have accepted your joke for rec.humor.funny.   This means that 
it will be queued, and unless it's a topical "rush" joke, it will show 
up in the group in a few weeks.   The joke may also show up on other 
networks, like GEnie, and may appear in this year's rec.humor.funny 
annual jokebook. 
 
Thanks! 
< 
 
Just thought everyone would like to know. 
--  
 
Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages, 
it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and 
goes through their pockets.    -- Eddy Peters 
 
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Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 08:08:51 -0700 
From: "Robert A. West" <robtwest@erols.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Police Portrayal in Campaigns/ Good and Bad cops 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>  
> At 08:45 PM 5/26/1998 -0700, Robert A. West wrote: 
> >Filksinger wrote: 
> > 
> >> Frankly, I thought your players complains to be so ridiculous that I 
> would probably be tempted to find other players, or even temporarily 
> >retire, rather than p 
> > 
> >Perhaps I was not clear that, in all but one instance, I was discussing 
> >the reaction of a vocal minority. 
>  
>    Maybe you could run an alternate campaign, where the PCs are high-tech 
> Federal agents who are assigned to deal with rogue supers....  ;-] 
 
SHHHHH!!!!!!   Some of my players may be listening!  It was supposed to  
be a surprise! 
 
<twisted, evil, grin> 
 
 
 
--  
<-------------------------------------------------------> 
Robert A. West		///  "Censorship is tyranny." 
Phone W:(215)466-3628; H:(215)348-9113   
http://www.erols.com/robtwest 
 
 
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Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 13:38:37 -0400 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com> 
Subject: Re: dive for cover question 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
<x-rich>>I have always thought that when a character dove for cover that they ended up 
 
>on the ground.  If the dive for cover was an inch or two away, it might make 
 
>sense that they just sidestepped or jumped, and could still be upright.  But 
 
>beyond that, I'm picturing heros diving full out, head first, to avoid some 
 
>blast, or to interpose themselves between a bullet and an innocent bystander. 
 
>Heros with Breakfall, or maybe Acrobatics might come out on their feet. 
 
> 
 
>This came up in the game tonight, and it made me wonder.  I couldn't find 
 
>anything one way or the other in the book.   
 
> 
 
>How do y'all handle this? 
 
 
I let the player describe the action.  If it seems reasonable, I let them try it.  It could be an actual dive.  It could be a roll.  It could be a leap off a bridge.  It could be a duck behind a car.  Whatever. 
 
 
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
 
"Disease and Starvation stalk the land like... 
 
two...giant...stalking things." 
 
	<bold>Edmund Blackadder 
 
</bold>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
 
Scott C. Nolan 
 
nolan@erols.com 
 
</x-rich> 
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Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 16:55:45 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting VPP 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Content-Disposition: inline 
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>  Granted that 
Killing damage is more likely to be lethal to its recipient than Normal 
damage, Damage Class for Damage Class; but using a Killing attack on 
someone would not in itself automatically violate a character's Code 
Against Killing any more than using a Normal attack automatically wouldn't 
violate it.< 
 
So it would be perfectly fine for a character with a Code Against Killing 
to go around stabbing people with a 1d6 HKA knife (because his maximum 
damage is 6 BODY, and most people have at least 10 BODY, so it's impossible 
for my knife to kill someone with one stab)?  His character shouldn't know 
that a single stab simply cannot kill a normal, but the mechanics make it 
impossible. 
 
>   Also, it bears pointing out that if a target has any resistant defense 
at all, he also gets to apply his non-resistant defense against the STUN of 
a Killing attack (HSR, page 160, second paragraph under "Killing Attacks"). 
 This should make HKA a bit less attractive to this character, since most 
targets will still get their full defenses against at least the STUN 
portion of his attacks and those that don't will get no defense 
whatsoever.< 
 
You're the second person to mention this, and it totally floored me.  I 
don't ever remember reading this rule, and I've never been a player in a 
campaign which was aware of it.  That's an awful lot of years to be doing 
things the wrong way.  -grin-  Hmmm...this is probably my best shot for 
getting this min-maxing player to stop using HKAs just because of the 
(potential for) high STUN vs (usually) low resistant defense.  Almost 
everybody has at least a few points of resistant defense, so he will almost 
never see a lot of his HKA STUN getting through. 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
Date: Thu, 28 May 98 21:11:37  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Wed, 27 May 1998 19:48:04 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
 
>qts writes 
>><snip> I would suggest that the 
>>person who is interested in Hero is wanting to move on from another RPG 
>>system. I have great difficulty in envisaging anyone taking up Hero 
>>'cold'. 
> 
>My most recent count shows 50+ players in my FH campaigns since 1992.  Only 
>2 had previous Hero experience, and about half had previous role-playing 
>experience.   
 
Yes, and how many of those GMed first time? How many of the others had 
their characters designed for them? Perhaps I should have been more 
precise. 
 
> These are people who really appreciate 
>Hero and want to get into more.  A bunch have bought the rules after 
>playing in my games. 
 
This is usually what happens in my games. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> 
        "John Desmarais" <johndesmarais@yahoo.com&> 
        "john.desmarais@ibm.net" <john.desmarais@ibm.net> 
Date: Thu, 28 May 98 21:13:37  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: How complicated is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Wed, 27 May 1998 20:58:04 -0700 (PDT), John Desmarais wrote: 
 
>---Melinda and Steven Mitchell <mdmitche@advicom.net> wrote: 
>> 
>> You guys want to change the name of this thread to "How complicated 
>FH"?  
>> We FH fans seem to be the only ones interested.  :-) 
>>  
>> Does that mean that Hero is about right for Champions, but 
>complicated for 
>> other genres? 
> 
>Well, it's strength is certainly the superhero genre, but I've never 
>felt it was too complicated for other genres (although I've never 
>tried to a do something like Toon with it). 
> 
>As for why FH comes up so much - a couple of reasons.  One, other than 
>Champions, it's the genre that has gotten the most publisher support.  
>Also, most games get their start with D&D or AD&D, so when you're 
>trying to convert players FH is a pretty good route to take - you get 
>the Hero rules, but a setting that's more or less familiar to the 
>players.  If the only system you know is (A)D&D, just by nature of 
>being different, Hero can seem complicated (actually, I don't think 
>it's really a problem with seeming complicated, but seeming daunting - 
>the whole idea of "you can build whatever kind of character you want" 
>can really throw people who think in terms of "roll some dice, pick a 
>class, pick a race, etc...) 
 
Well, it's not too difficult to replicate D&D in FH, and it's a good 
way of weaning players off TSR. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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From: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
To: "Champs List" <champ-l@sysabend.org&> "Remnant" <easleyap@mobis.com> 
Date: Thu, 28 May 98 21:16:23  
Reply-To: "qts" <qts@nildram.co.uk> 
Subject: Re: Poll: Champions Dialogue #2. 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Wed, 27 May 1998 18:47:39 -0500, Remnant wrote: 
 
>>Woah, woah, woah, go back and read the post before the post you responded 
>>to.  I was expanding on the second half of my previous post where I 
>>described an invisible (no VPE) character who created images and used fully 
>>indirect EBs (IPE) to mess with the players :-) 
>> 
>>VPE Invisibility was just a lark for the list. 
>> 
>>And yes, if was a lot of fun. 
> 
> 
>Sorry, I must have missed that it was two different examples. 
> 
>This makes me ask a question before I use this in my game.  If I make an 
>invisible character like this one have indirect attacks can the onlookers 
>tell where the power is actually coming from.  My reason is that I want them 
>to think the attack comes from other people but if the attack is invisible 
>they can't see it at all and if it isn't invisible they should be able to 
>tell it came from Mr. Invisible, unless Indirect makes it so you can't tell 
>where a power is coming from. 
 
For a nasty one, turn that around: have another hero's Fully Indirect 
attacks come from the area of the Invisible one. 
qts 
 
Home: qts@nildram.co.uk. 
 
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Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 14:16:53 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting VPP 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 09:09 PM 5/28/1998 GMT, <owner-champ-l@sysabend.org> wrote: 
>From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
>Subject: Re: Shapeshifting VPP 
>Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
> 
>Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>>  Granted that 
>Killing damage is more likely to be lethal to its recipient than Normal 
>damage, Damage Class for Damage Class; but using a Killing attack on 
>someone would not in itself automatically violate a character's Code 
>Against Killing any more than using a Normal attack automatically wouldn't 
>violate it.< 
> 
>So it would be perfectly fine for a character with a Code Against Killing 
>to go around stabbing people with a 1d6 HKA knife (because his maximum 
>damage is 6 BODY, and most people have at least 10 BODY, so it's impossible 
>for my knife to kill someone with one stab)?  His character shouldn't know 
>that a single stab simply cannot kill a normal, but the mechanics make it 
>impossible. 
 
   That would be no more "perfectly fine" than for that same character to 
go around hitting people with a 3d6 HA club (again, maximum damage is 6 
BODY -- and in both cases, by the way, the character can add STR to get 12 
BODY).  Whether it's a fishing knife or a crowbar, it's still assault with 
a dangerous weapon, it still *can* do fatal damage (especially if Hit 
Locations and/or Bleeding rules are used), and it still has to be used with 
caution. 
   Remember, from the character's point of view, there is no clear 
distinction between Normal Damage and Killing Damage; to him, damage is 
damage.  There is also no clear distinction between resistant defenses and 
non-resistant defenses; to him, armor is armor. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How complicated is Champions? 
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 17:55:32 -0500 
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
John Desmarais writes: 
>As for why FH comes up so much - a couple of reasons.  One, other than 
>Champions, it's the genre that has gotten the most publisher support.  
>Also, most games get their start with D&D or AD&D, so when you're 
>trying to convert players FH is a pretty good route to take - you get 
>the Hero rules, but a setting that's more or less familiar to the 
>players.  If the only system you know is (A)D&D, just by nature of 
>being different, Hero can seem complicated ... 
 
Well, I'm familiar with D&D, AD&D, GURPs, Rolemaster, RuneQuest, 
DragonQuest, and a few other minor ones.  I'd generally rank Hero the most 
complicated of the lot, but I can see why others might not.  (GURPs combat 
certainly seems much more complicated than Hero.) 
 
> ...(actually, I don't think 
>it's really a problem with seeming complicated, but seeming daunting - 
>the whole idea of "you can build whatever kind of character you want" 
>can really throw people who think in terms of "roll some dice, pick a 
>class, pick a race, etc...) 
 
True.  Playing a given campaign of Hero isn't necessarily more complicated. 
 It's the "build" that does it.  Interestingly, though, some players are 
paralyzed only if they have to build it themselves--they are never short of 
ideas for the GM to work on designing.  Other players are paralyzed by the 
sheer volume of choices--design has nothing to do with it, except by 
increasing that volume.  Others seen the same? 
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 20:20:24 -0500 
From: Tim Statler <tstatler@igateway.net> 
Reply-To: tstatler@igateway.net 
To: hero-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Bab 5 Hero: Races; big 4 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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The following are the Racial Package Deals for the four major races on 
Babylon 5. Another post will deal with a few of the non-aligned races. 
 
Each race is followed by notes on the race, and why I constructed it the 
way I did. All use the following construction for Increased and 
Decreased Characteristic Maxima: Stat #1/#2. This format is the base 
stat increase/max stat increase. Example: the Mimbari have a STR listed 
as 13/23. Their base score is 13 (unless boought up or down) and the Chr 
Max is 23 before having to pay double. 
 
Here is the races. 
 
HUMAN 
 increased Chr Max: PRE 10/25           5 
subtotal                                      5 
 DF: Human easy, noticed               -5  
TOTAL                                         0 
 
Notes: All races have a DF. Humans have been called the only race to 
build comunities with outsiders. Any other race would have used Bab5 as 
a military outpost. Humans opened it to everyone. Hence the higher 
possible PRE. 
 
MIMBARI 
 increased Chr Max: STR 13/23               6 
                    CON 13/23              12 
                    BDY 12/22               8 
                    INT 13/23               6 
                    EGO 12/22               8 
 Lightsleep talent                          3 
SUBTOTAL                                              43 
 DF: Mimbari concealable, noticed          -10 
 Watched by Clan, 8-, more pow, NCI        -10 
 Beserk: if drinks alcohol, UNC, 14-, 11-  -20 
TOTAL                                                  3 
 
notes: he Mimbari are considered a tough race. Several times people 
comment "He's lucky. That would have killed a human.". The Beserk is the 
best way I could work out their Alcohol problem. And all Mimbari are 
part of a clan, even Delenn wasn't immune from their censure. 
 
CENTAURI (males must pay cost in parenthesis) 
 increased Chr Max: CON 13/23               12 
                    EGO 12/22                8 
(6 xtra limbs, can only lift less than 2 lbs ea(-2), 
      no fine manipulation (-1/2)           (1)  
SUBTOTAL                                            20(21) 
 DF: Centauri easy, noticed                 -5 
 Psych Lim: Prejudiced about/against Narns  
          Com, Mod                         -10 
TOTAL                                                5(6) 
 
notes: Centauri are the only race with prehensile private parts. :) They 
are a race that loves revels and secrets. Also, all Centauri have some 
sort of low opinion about the Narns. This is for the most part just 
"they're Barbarians!" but some have stronger feelings. 
 
NARNS 
 increased CHr Max: STR 15/25                10 
                    CON 15/25                20 
                    BDY 15/25                20 
                    PD   -/10                 2 
                    ED   -/10                 2 
SUBTOTAL                                              54 
 DF:NARN Conceal/Noticed                    -10 
 decreased Chr Max: COM 8/18                 -1 
                    DEX 10/18                -3 
 Psych Lim: Hatred of Centauri VC, Strong   -20 
TOTAL                                                 20 
 
notes: The toughest of B5s races, they bitterly hate anything Centauri. 
An Ego roll will let them control their reactions. They are alos shown 
as competent fighters but not quite as dexterous as Humans. 
 
part 2 will include the Pak'ma'ra, the Gaim, and the Drazi. 
 
Tim Statler 
 
 
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Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 21:37:58 -0400 
To: <mdmitche@advicom.net&> <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 08:28 PM 5/27/98 -0500, Melinda and Steven Mitchell wrote: 
>I would rather have the components and templates INSTEAD of the full 
>fledged examples.  Just include enough examples to show how it works.  For 
>example, in the Hero Bestiary, I would rather have 2 pages on claws than 
>the same claw presented in full Hero detail on 100+ examples.  Ditto for 
>wings, bites, scales, etc.  Why?  Because most components would withstand 
>rule changes (whether House or Hero inspired).  Full examples are very 
>brittle.  If the software pattern held, the final result would be smaller!  
 
I still don't think this is possible.  Maybe I don't really understand what 
it is you want.  So, a challenge:  
 
Write two pages about claws.  What would these pages look like?  What are 
the contents?  I just cannot for the life of me see what these pages would 
be.  Then, write some pages about wings.  And then demonstrate your pages 
by creating a hawk.  (We'll ignore bites for this.)  I don't think what you 
are asking for is simple or straight forward.  I think that if you do it, 
half of the responses will be what is wrong with this or that example and 
the other half will be things you did not consider.  This idea cannot work.   
 
Why?  Because it does not scale (keeping the software pattern).  The GM 
would have to refer to five or six different pages to find the wings and 
scales and bites and claws and poison breath and fire from eyes, etc. 
Humans are not computers.  Presenting them with large lists of 
possibilities are just as daunting as "you can do anything in HERO." 
 
>Now we are on the same frequency.  A CD (or on the web) is where most of 
>the examples go.  I would say that the examples belong in a database, 
>however--not a set format.  Make the database reader such that it can build 
>the PDF or HTML (or other) examples, and each can be customized--by 
>changing the default components.  I change a claw, it ripples into all the 
>examples.  Ambitious?  Yes.  Effective?  Most assuredly. 
 
>I really liked the FH sourcebook when I first got it.  And to be fair, I 
>couldn't have gotten as far as I have without using it as the spring board. 
> But now it is next to useless to me.  Ditto Companions 1 and 2.  The only 
>thing I still directly use is the weapons list (modified), a few spells 
>(but completely rewritten), and a handful of optional rules.  Maybe 20 
>pages out of 500+.   
 
I have a different GMing style.  I write maybe 5-10% of my game ahead of 
time (not counting world maps and country histories) and make up the rest 
of it as I play.  The only spells I specifically work on are the ones my 
players want.  All "spells" exist in my world unless I have previously 
forbidden them.  When the characters run up against another mage.  I decide 
what spells he knows based on what they look like and make up the game 
mechanics as we play.  I don't care if he has two 30 point and two 70 point 
spells.  It doesn't matter because I don't care about what else he knows 
unless he is asked a question.  In combat, I only care about SPEED, DEX, 
OCV, DCV, CON, BODY, STUN, DCs, PD/ED and maybe EGO.  That's about it. 
Maybe I'm lucky, but I can juggle all of this in my head. 
 
>I think there should be a Hero conversion(s) written for every game system. 
> I'd like to participate in the AD&D one, particularly the Forgotten Realms 
>one.  But part of my point is that they do not belong in the main FH 
>sourcebook.  Probably one conversion book per game system would be best.  
>If the "book" is only a 32 page module in shrink wrap, fine--just keep 
>those pages out of the way of those who don't want to see them. 
 
AD&D spells would take up hundreds of pages and they would not be balanced 
in the same way AD&D balances them.  (With tradition, of course.) 
 
  Hero Game 
>could probably negotiate the right to do the conversion without any 
>trouble.  ("Let's see WoC/TSR.  You have 3 core rule books, plus a handful 
>of rules supplements.  You might lose a few sales of those.  OTOH, you have 
>literally hundreds of source books and modules for your various worlds.  
>And we just made them much more desirable for Hero players.") 
 
Who is going to write this? 
 
>As far as archmages go, I currently do not model them any differently than 
>any other mage.  My current system seems to handle them.  Elminister, 
>currently a 29th level AD&D wizard, would have (level * 20) + 50 = 630 
>points in my system. 
 
It's much simpler to just decide what effects he can do and not care how 
many points it's based on.  Style difference. 
 
  Joe 
 
 
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Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 20:54:07 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Daniel Pawtowski <dpawtows@access.digex.net> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Daniel Pawtowski wrote: 
 
> > 
> >Oh really, tell that to the A-10 pilots who used the IR systems on their Maveric 
> >Missiles so effectively in the gulf war.  So you can't aim a weapon through a 
> >monitor.  I'm sure the Iraqi Republican Guard wishes that were true. 
> 
>    I think you're completely missing the point here..... 
> 
>  An A-10 pilot can aim his weapons at a target he sees on a TV screen. 
> If you place a television set in front of the plane and tune it to the 
> Tonight Show, he cannot target Jay Leno through it. 
> 
>                                         Daniel Pawtowski 
 
Of course he can't target Leno since the Tonight show is taped for later broadcast 
:) 
 
Back to mental powers, What's the difference between tagetting a missile through a 
cathode ray tube and targetting Mental Powers through a cathode ray tube? 
 
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Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 21:06:56 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Firelynx16@aol.com 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Firelynx16@aol.com wrote: 
 
> In a message dated 98-05-27 22:56:11 EDT, you write: 
> 
> > > 
> >  >    A TV camera isn't Telescopic Sight; it's Clairvoyance. 
> >  >    Binoculars enhance vision directly, through a lens; a TV camera 
> >  > processes it into an electronic signal and makes an separate image of 
> what 
> >  > it sees. 
> >  > 
> > 
> >  Then what does the zoom on the camera do?A side note: What you see from a 
> >  television screen are photons of light, what you see from through the 
> >  binoculars are photons of light, what you see replected off a mirror are 
> >  photons of light.  Is there some physical difference in light produced by 
> >  phoperesients excited by an electron gun (television), ligth produced by 
> >  impeding the flow of electrons through a wire (light bulb), light produced 
> > by 
> >  charging an inert gas (neon light) and light produced in a nuclear fusion 
> >  reaction (sun light).  They are all the same photon particles from what I 
> >  remember of undergrad physics. 
> 
> The thing to keep in mind here is that Line of Sight means that the attacker 
> has to be able to *detect* his/her target.  (see HSR pg55)  Looking at an 
> image of the target on a television screen does not allow the attacker to 
> detect the target, only the image on the screen.  Try using the sense of smell 
> on a target via a tv screen. 
> Another way to think of it might be to think of using a string to represent 
> the sense you are using to get your LoS.  To establish LoS you would connect 
> that piece of string from the attacker directly to the target.  If the 
> attacker couldn't see (detect) through a particular barrier, than the string 
> stops short of the target, and LoS cannot be established.  If the attacker 
> connect the string, meaning he could detect the target, then LoS has been 
> established, and the attacker can fire away. 
> If the attacker is looking at a tv image of the target, the string goes from 
> the attacker to the screen and stops.  Normal sight does not allow for the 
> attacker to use the sense of Sight along the path of photons in the tube, and 
> then along electrons through the wires, and then along microwaves to the 
> television station, and then along etc. 
> Again, we're talking about base level of mental powers.  If a player wanted to 
> be able to attack targets seen on tv screens, it can be done, but it's going 
> to be messy and expensive. 
> 
> 'Lynx 
 
Line of Soght is not the only way to attack with mental powers.  It's line of 
sight or a successful Mind Scan, which as someone else stated previously, points 
to being able to locate the mind of the target.  In HSR  on page 55 it states that 
Mental powers are not stopped by conventional barriers and goes on to give the 
N-Ray vision example.  So please explain how a TV is a barrier that you cannot use 
mental powers through.  There are plenty of legends and SF stories where Telepathy 
us used through crystal balls, is that not analigous to Mental Powers through a 
cathode ray tube. 
 
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Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 21:09:25 -0500 
From: Tim Statler <tstatler@igateway.net> 
Reply-To: tstatler@igateway.net 
To: hero-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Bab 5 Hero: Races; Non-aligned worlds 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Okay here are a few of the Non-Aligned races: the format is the same as 
for the Big 4 races. I'm handling the Vorlons as a NPC race.  
 
PAK'MA'RA 
  increased Chr MAx: Con 15/25         20 
                     BDY 12/22          8 
  LS:breathe alien enviroments          5 
  LS:immune to Disease                  3 
  Pow Def  5pts                         5 
  Discriminatory Smell                  5 
  +2 to smell perception rolls          4 
SUBTOTAL                                      50 
  DF:Pak'ma'ra conceal,major           -15 
  Rep: Carrion eaters 11-              -10 
  Reduced Chr Max: COM 6/16             -2 
                   DEX 8/18             -6 
  phys Lim:cannot speak other langs.  
           Freq,slight                 -10 
TOTAL                                          7 
 
notes: "Everything they eat must be dead three days. And there are some 
things even Pak'ma'ra won't eat, but, by Valen, we haven't found out 
what yet." Coming from a Mimbari, and leader of the On'la'shoc, this 
shows just how bad most races veiw the Pak'ma'ra. Even so, on worlds 
with alien populations there is always a large group of Pak living among 
the underclass on tht world. The LS comes form the eating of rotten 
food, and in the pilot, you see one walking thru the alien sector (where 
breather masks are required) unassisted. We never see them speak, and 
are told that they refuse to speak any lang other than their own, hence 
I gave them a Physical Limit rather than a Psych Limit. We don't know if 
they even CAN speak other lang. 
 
THE GAIM 
  increased Chr Max: EGO 12/22                8 
                     INT 13/23                6 
  Bump of Direction                           3 
  360 degree Vision                          10 
  Spatial Awareness                          25 
  DMG Resist 2rpd/2red                        2 
SUBTOTAL                                           54 
  DF: Gaim conceal/noticed                  -10  
  Decreased Chr Max: STR 8/18                -2 
                     BDY 8/18                -4 
  Phys Lim: Breathes Methane rather than O2. 
                 all,great                  -20 
  Phys Lim: Unable to speak other lang. 
                 freq,slight                -10 
TOTAL                                               8 
 
notes: This is my shakiest construct. We know very little about them, 
and only see them outside their enviromental suits in the first episode 
of the last season. And only breifly then. We know they are an insectiod 
race and are matriarchial. I built a race based on what little we know 
about them and what looked like it would fit. We know that they build 
the translation devices we see them use. I think that they have bulbous 
eyes (I wasn't paying enough attention when they removed the helmet). 
And I added senses and armor derived from having antenae and a carapice. 
 
DRAZI 
increased chr max: STR 13/23                 6 
                   BDY 12/22                 8 
                   PD  -/10                  2 
SUBTOTAL                                         16 
 DF: Drazi conceal, noticed                 -10 
 decreased Chr Max: Com 8/18                 -1 
TOTAL                                             5 
 
notes: a poor man's Narn, they are not as physically imposing as the 
Narn, but almost as tough. 
 
 
Any comments? Any suggestions for the GAIM or the Brae'Keiree (sp?) 
 
Tim Statler 
 
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Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 21:11:25 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: filkhero@usa.net 
CC: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Filksinger wrote: 
 
> > From: Ross Rannells 
> > 
> <snip> 
> > > 
> > > Yes, the camera will allow you to see the target, but it does not give you 
> > > line of sight to that target. 
> > > 
> > 
> > Neither does Mind Scan, yet it allows you to attack. 
> 
> Mind Scan is a Targeting Sense, and as such does give you "line of sight" to the target. 
> 
> Filksinger 
 
Mind scan gives the location of the targetted mind and can them be used to target other 
mental powers as well as tells the egoist the relative location of the target.  Where does 
it say it gives line of sight on the target? 
 
 
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From: "Melinda and Steven Mitchell" <mdmitche@advicom.net> 
To: "Hero Mail List" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 21:13:08 -0500 
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Joe Mucchiello writes: 
>I still don't think this is possible.  Maybe I don't really understand 
what 
>it is you want.  So, a challenge:  
 
>Write two pages about claws.  What would these pages look like?  What are 
>the contents?  I just cannot for the life of me see what these pages would 
>be.  Then, write some pages about wings.  And then demonstrate your pages 
>by creating a hawk.  (We'll ignore bites for this.)  I don't think what 
you 
>are asking for is simple or straight forward.  I think that if you do it, 
>half of the responses will be what is wrong with this or that example and 
>the other half will be things you did not consider.  This idea cannot 
work.   
 
Challenge accepted.  I don't think I'll do two pages on claws, because part 
of the point if that those two pages should include a lot of different 
methods for claws, from different campaigns.  However, I think I can come 
up with something close enough to illustrate my point.  Just be prepared to 
wait a little while, since I have a game session coming up soon.  (I never 
said it could be done quickly and easily--just that it would work better 
and would be worth the effort :-) 
 
>snip good replies 
 
I've got answers for all your objections, but it strikes me that nothing I 
could say would change your mine without the challenge being answered.  So 
I'll wait. 
 
>It's much simpler to just decide what effects he can do and not care how 
>many points it's based on.  Style difference. 
 
I will say this:  Your method works great for you.  But how would you 
communicate the nuances of your play and your source material to another 
person--especially that "guy in the store"?  Long ago, before we found 
Hero, a friend and I designed our own game, to get around what we did not 
like in AD&D.  Surprisingly, it played a lot like Hero, except much more 
open-ended.  It had all kinds of design and play balance problems, yet we 
were able to successfully run games using it.  The only other problem was 
that you had to be one of the designers to run it.  No one else could 
understand it, and we certainly couldn't have explained it.    
 
Steven Mitchell 
mdmitche@advicom.net 
 
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Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 21:13:56 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Filksinger wrote: 
 
> > From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Filksinger wrote: 
> > 
> <snip> 
> > > Because when I look at a TV monitor, I am seeing glowing pixels on a TV screen, but when I look through binoculars, I am seeing the light coming from the person? Because looking through binoculars tells me exactly where the person is, but looking through a TV camera, at best, allows me to see landmarks and make inferences based upon the camera's supposed location? 
> > 
> > Photons of light are light, whether they are those reflected off a person or those given off by execited phospers in a cathode ray tube.  It's still light 
> 
> Yes, but the light is not the issue. If you look through binoculars, you see the target. If you look at a television screen, you see a picture of the target that does not necessarily have any connection to the actual location of the target. One tells you where the target is, not only an absolute sense (He is in the Oval Office), but in a relative sense as well (he is to my right, over my head, exactly there). The other does not. 
> 
> If I look through binoculars at someone, I know exactly where they are. If I look through a TV screen at someone, I do not. 
> 
> <snip> 
> > > Because the sattelite images and missile system are combined together into a complex form of Targetting Sense, usable only by the missile. Because, even if I had your sattelite and missile system, I still could not pick up my SuperRifle(TM) with unlimited range and the ability to shoot through anything, and use the image on the sattelite system screen to shoot someone 300 miles away. 
> > > 
> > 
> > Why not?  If your SuperRifle(TM) is hooked into the system why couldn't you target it that way.  The B in ICBM stands for Ballistic, meaning an archin tragectory.  ICBM are targetted using satelites yet the use ballistic tragectory just like your SuperRifle(TM).  I see not difference here. 
> 
> _IF_ my SR was hooked into the system, you would be correct. However, I am not talking about if it was part of the system. That would give it the same Targetting Sense as the missile. I am talking about looking at a TV screen, and knowing by looking at the screen how to aim a weapon in my hands. Unless I know exactly what relation in space the camera has to me, that is impossible. 
> 
> My brain is not hooked into the system, so I cannot use the cameras as a Targeting Sense. 
> 
> > > Now, if a character were to be designed so as to have, say, Targetting Clairvoyance (SFX: Nervous system wired into camera network), then I would allow this. Not with a normal TV image, because a normal TV image does not allow targetting. 
> > > 
> > 
> > Why Not?  A-10 pilots used the camera images from their Maveric missles to fly their planes by at night during desert storm and they used those same images off a TV monitor to target the missiles.  Tow and Hellfire missiles are targetted exactly the same way. 
> 
> Yes, by using a system where what the camera and missile were linked, so that what the camera was pointed at was what was hit. Are you linked to CNN cameras, so that you can, just by looking at your TV, tell exactly where people in the picture are in relation to you? That is what is needed for Targetting, whether or not you use a weapon or mental powers. 
> 
> If your camera is set up so that a man, walking into the room, can, solely by looking at the screen, aim his super gun and hit a man standing by the camera, then it can be used as a targetting sense. TV does not meet this criteria. You cannot walk into a video store, see a live broadcast on the television, aim your supergun, and expect to hit the reporter hundreds or thousands of miles away. All of your examples are targetting systems, and looking at the monitor you know where the target is. A television camera doesn't meet the criteria. 
> 
> Filksinger 
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________ 
> Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
 
 
 
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Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 19:16:54 -0700 (PDT) 
From: Dale Ward <daleaward@rocketmail.com> 
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers (change the subject once in a while,  dammit!) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Greetings, 
 
---Bryant Berggren  wrote: 
> 
> At 11:06 PM 5/27/98 -0400, John and Ron Prins wrote: 
> >>Besides, there are at least a couple of Powers that normals DO have access 
to  
> >>without gadgetry or magic: a level or two of Shrinking (in the case of 
<snipped> 
> spectrum of radiation detectable by the retina. Much like a dog whistle 
> creates sound waves of too high frequency to detect, ultraviolet light is 
> too high a frequency for human eyes to see. 
>  
     Reminds me of when I was trying to get into the Navy.  I was rejected 
because there was a range of frequencies slap in the middle of the human 
hearing range to which I was stone deaf. 
 
     However, according the examiner, there was an "upside".  My upper and 
lower range hearing extended well beyond the human norm. 
 
     Yes, I can hear those "silent" dog whistles and, frankly, they really 
tick us auditory mutants off. 
 
Dale A. Ward 
[Advance Scout for the Mutant Invasion] 
 
_________________________________________________________ 
DO YOU YAHOO!? 
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com 
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 02:22:22 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
<snip>  
> Back to mental powers, What's the difference between tagetting a missile through a 
> cathode ray tube and targetting Mental Powers through a cathode ray tube? 
 
The only difference is that the missile and the cathode ray tube are linked together in a system that allows one to precisely guide the other. 
 
Mental attacks, like all others (area effect and explosions aside), require that you pinpoint the target. A cathode ray tube does not _normally_ allow you to pinpoint a target with it. 
 
If you could walk into a room with the cathode ray tube, look at it, see someone you wanted to attack, and know where that target was well enough to attack him, then you can use an attack on him. 
 
A missile linked to a screen is synchronized with it to allow just this. You see someone in the crosshairs on the screen, and that is all you need to hit him. 
 
A mentalist, using such a device, may, if skilled enough, be able to tell from the screen _exactly_ where the target was. This could be ruled to allow a mental attack. 
 
A mentalist who walked into Radio Shack and saw a live interview with his enemy on the screen, cannot pinpoint his location. It isn't a targeting sense. Use of any attack, including mental powers, requires a targetting sense. Since TV does not give you enough information _in and of itself_ to do so, then it does not qualify. 
 
The missile and screen combination supply sufficient information that it is not even necessary for you to know where the camera is pointed. The missile and screen are linked so as to make the screen and camera a "Targeting Sense". A TV camera doesn't give you this information. 
 
Look at it this way. Watch TV until you see a live news broadcast. Now, solely by using the TV, point directly at the _newscaster_, not the image on the screen. 
 
You might get his general direction from clues on the screen, but you cannot point directly at him. TV is not _normally_ a Targeting Sense. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
____________________________________________________________________ 
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 
 
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Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 21:34:47 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Filksinger wrote: 
 
> > From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Filksinger wrote: 
> > 
> <snip> 
> Yes, but the light is not the issue. If you look through binoculars, you see the target. If you look at a television screen, you see a picture of the target that does not necessarily have any connection to the actual location of the target. One tells you where the target is, not only an absolute sense (He is in the Oval Office), but in a relative sense as well (he is to my right, over my head, exactly there). The other does not. 
 
Granted, but does not knowing that the target is in the Oval Office give the egoist's mind scan roll no minuses.  Also it the target was on a survaillance camera and the exact location of the area being viewed was well known to the egoist and its relative location to their location then, by your reasoning, the mind scan would not be necessary. 
 
> 
> 
> If I look through binoculars at someone, I know exactly where they are. If I look through a TV screen at someone, I do not. 
> 
 
So you've never lost you sence of distance when using binoculars?  It is a fairly common thing to do, and most people need a second or two reorient themselvs after use binoculars or telescopes. 
 
> <snip> 
> > > Because the sattelite images and missile system are combined together into a complex form of Targetting Sense, usable only by the missile. Because, even if I had your sattelite and missile system, I still could not pick up my SuperRifle(TM) with unlimited range and the ability to shoot through anything, and use the image on the sattelite system screen to shoot someone 300 miles away. 
> > > 
> > 
> > Why not?  If your SuperRifle(TM) is hooked into the system why couldn't you target it that way.  The B in ICBM stands for Ballistic, meaning an archin tragectory.  ICBM are targetted using satelites yet the use ballistic tragectory just like your SuperRifle(TM).  I see not difference here. 
> 
> _IF_ my SR was hooked into the system, you would be correct. However, I am not talking about if it was part of the system. That would give it the same Targetting Sense as the missile. I am talking about looking at a TV screen, and knowing by looking at the screen how to aim a weapon in my hands. Unless I know exactly what relation in space the camera has to me, that is impossible. 
> 
> My brain is not hooked into the system, so I cannot use the cameras as a Targeting Sense. 
 
Your Eyes are the targeting sence, I hope your brain is hooked up to your eyes :) 
 
> 
> 
> > > Now, if a character were to be designed so as to have, say, Targetting Clairvoyance (SFX: Nervous system wired into camera network), then I would allow this. Not with a normal TV image, because a normal TV image does not allow targetting. 
> > > 
> > 
> > Why Not?  A-10 pilots used the camera images from their Maveric missles to fly their planes by at night during desert storm and they used those same images off a TV monitor to target the missiles.  Tow and Hellfire missiles are targetted exactly the same way. 
> 
> Yes, by using a system where what the camera and missile were linked, so that what the camera was pointed at was what was hit. Are you linked to CNN cameras, so that you can, just by looking at your TV, tell exactly where people in the picture are in relation to you? That is what is needed for Targetting, whether or not you use a weapon or mental powers. 
> 
 
Niether the camera nor the missile are doing the targetting it the pilot that is doing the targetting.  The camera is giving him a group of targets to shoot at.  The pilot selects a target and then targets the missile.  The computer then does its best to hit the targetted location. 
 
> If your camera is set up so that a man, walking into the room, can, solely by looking at the screen, aim his super gun and hit a man standing by the camera, then it can be used as a targetting sense. TV does not meet this criteria. You cannot walk into a video store, see a live broadcast on the television, aim your supergun, and expect to hit the reporter hundreds or thousands of miles away. All of your examples are targetting systems, and looking at the monitor you know where the target is. A television camera doesn't meet the criteria. 
> 
 
Given a calculator, map and mussle volicity to accelerant equation, I could do calculate the angles and amount of acceleratn necessary for such a shot.  It's very basic trig.  Given time to prepare set knowns ahead of time and a programmable calculator the shot could be set up in less then a minute.  Of course the advantage of Ego powers is no tragetory knowledge is needed just the relative location of the target. 
 
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Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 23:06:52 -0400 (EDT) 
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To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: jprins@interhop.net (John and Ron Prins) 
Subject: Re: Normals with Powers (change the subject once in a while,  dammit!) 
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>     Reminds me of when I was trying to get into the Navy.  I was rejected 
>because there was a range of frequencies slap in the middle of the human 
>hearing range to which I was stone deaf. 
> 
>     However, according the examiner, there was an "upside".  My upper and 
>lower range hearing extended well beyond the human norm. 
> 
>     Yes, I can hear those "silent" dog whistles and, frankly, they really 
>tick us auditory mutants off. 
 
COOL! You've got Ultrasonic Hearing! 
 
 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
"FORM BLAZIN' SHILLELAGH!" 
-Vaultron Force, Gold Digger #38 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
John D. Prins and Ron Prins 
jprins@interhop.net 
 
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Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 22:25:02 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
CC: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
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Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> At 09:52 PM 5/27/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
> >Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>    It's not a physical difference that makes the difference.  It's a 
> logistical difference.   In the case of binoculars or a mirror, the photons 
> are coming from the target.  In the case of a television screen, the 
> photons are coming from a television screen. 
> 
 
So the source of the light makes the difference?  Do neon lights, incandescent, 
electrical impedence and nuclear light have differing effects on Mental Powers. 
Since incandescent and neon are softer then the light pruduced by a television do 
they have adverse effects on the targetting capacity of the light they produce for 
egoists? 
 
>    This is done by providing other frames of reference.  In the case of 
> missile guidance, that frame of reference is provided by the expert systems 
> of the type that you used to write.  The gunner isn't just looking at a 
> video screen and shooting out the window, is he?  No, he's not really 
> targeting the weapon himself, but telling the computer where to target -- 
> otherwise, how does the computer know where it's supposed to hit? 
> 
 
The expert systems provide no frame of reference, they provide guidence from one 
location to another.  In short the computer is flying from point A to point B. 
Point B is the location on the HUD that the pilot has selected as the target.  The 
missile and the expert system know nothing about what point B is.  Whether its a 
giant city eating lizard, a T 80 tank or a crowd of  innocent bystanders,  it 
makes no difference to the missile.  It simply goes there and detonates.  The 
selection of the target (point B) is done by the gunner on a 2 inch by 2 inch 
video disply that is sitting a few inches in front of his eye. 
 
> 
> 
>    I think you're using the word "targeting" in a different sense than that 
> used in the Hero System.  To "target" something in the Hero System doesn't 
> mean to decide what to aim at; it means finding that target, once it's been 
> aimed at, and hopefully scoring a hit. 
 
That's exactly what I mean by targetting.  A computer cannot do this.  It does not 
know how to find a target.  All the computer does is go to the point it is told 
to, making minor course corrections as needed. 
 
>    From what I gather on the above, your systems use human operators to 
> decide where something should be aimed.  But they're not just using video 
> cameras to see what the terrain looks like, and judging blindly.  At the 
> very least, I would imagine that there are some sort of cross-hairs on the 
> screen that show what the weapon will hit -- and that is precisely the sort 
> of frame of reference I'm talking about. 
> 
 
That depends on whether its wire guided, heat seeker, laser guieded or radar 
guided weapon.  Laser guided weapons go to a point of light, whether its a bridge, 
a tank, or a grain of sand.  It simply move to its point B.  Heat seekers go to 
the heat source they are pointed at.  Radar seekers activly hunt down the target 
they are locked onto.  Wire guided goto the current point B (it can change as the 
target moves) that is reprsented by the dot on the HUD (video display).  If the 
dot changes from a tank to a tree, the missile doesn't care it strikes whater the 
dot is on.  Once again the targetting is done by the gunner not the missle.  There 
are stories of Apache gunners switching targets durning a missiles flight because 
the origanal target was destroyed by someone else before the missile reached its 
origanal target. 
 
> >Tieing all this back into Mental Powers is quite easy.  Computers aid in 
> >guidence not in targetting.  Mental Powers need no guidence only targetting,, 
> >So once again Mental powers would be usable through a live video feed (given 
> >sufficient information about the location being viewed) 
> 
>    The only real fallacy in this paragraph is the misuse (as it were) of 
> the word "targeting."  In the real-world applications that you're used to, 
> computers do aid only in guidance and not in targeting.  Given the 
> different meaning of the word "targeting" in the Hero System, however, 
> guidance and targeting become essentially the same thing, rendering the 
> second statement nonsensical and what follows it just incorrect. 
 
Your are confusing targetting and guidence for missiles and targetting and 
guidence for ballistics.  Targetting and guidence are the same with balistic 
weapons (guns, cannons, and balistic missiles after fuel is expended) where as 
they are different things with guided weapons (guided missles).  In balistic 
weapons (and most Energy weapons) once the weapon is targetted and fired there is 
no way to change the weapons tragectory.  With guided weapons you can change the 
missiles tragectory while in fligt, to correct for the targets movement and that 
sudden cross wind. 
 
>    Besides all that, the missile guidance systems discussed above all work 
> on a frame of reference relative to the weapon.  The operator could be 100 
> feet from the weapon, or 100 miles; it's all the same to him, because he's 
> not physically interacting with it.  In the case of a mentalist, his brain 
> is the weapon, so he needs a frame of reference relative to himself.  Now, 
> if it were possible to have some sort of video-based guidance system that 
> would show a mentalist exactly where his target is in relation to himself 
> and where he's aiming his mental power, then you'd have something. 
 
Good point. This thread go started when someone said that no weapons can be 
targetted using video cameras.  I was pointing out how this is untrue even in the 
real world.  As far as Mental powers go,  I would say if the egoist knows the 
location he is viewing very well (either by making an idea roll, having visited it 
several times or spending points like teleports do on locations) they would be 
able to attack a target at that location through a live camera feed.  If they 
don't know the location well enough, but do know the relative location fairly well 
then a no negative Mind scan roll is in order.  A player should be given the 
chance to minimize the location for the Mind Scan.  Of couse if they think San 
Diego is on the east cost, then I'd chage them the endurance and tell them they 
failed.  For NPC's idea or area knowlege rolls would be in order to cut down the 
area on the Mind Scan.  This of course comes down to the GM and the situation. 
For me the answer is still yes you can use mental powers through a live TV feed. 
The key is the situation, the greater it increases the enjoyment of the game the 
more I allow.  Mechanics are always secondary to fun. 
 
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Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 22:39:52 -0500 
From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
Reply-To: rossrannells@worldnet.att.net 
To: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
CC: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
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Bob Greenwade wrote: 
 
> At 10:08 PM 5/27/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
> > 
> >>    The proper question is: Can you draw an unobstructed line of vision from 
> >> the attacker to the target by way of the visual aid?  With the binoculars, 
> >> the answer is a clear yes; with the TV camera, the answer is no. 
> >>    (The reason I say "line of vision" is that lenses, mirrors, and prisms 
> >> alter the flow of light and thus bend the line of vision.) 
> > 
> >  Binoculars also use lenses to alter the flow of light so do glasses, sun 
> >glasses, mirrors, windows, water and even air temperature effect refaction 
> >gradients.  So by this arguement anything that significantly effects the 
> >refraction gradient of light will block Mental Powers.  Which means 
> binoculars 
> >would block Mental Powers.  I think we have all agreed that this simply is 
> not 
> >the case. 
> 
>    Go back and re-read what I wrote. 
>    Rat used the simple word "line."  I was modifying that to "line of 
> vision" for the very reason you point out -- everything you list above 
> either reflects or refracts light.  "Line of vision" takes that into 
> account.  (And isn't that term basically synonymous with "line of sight"?) 
 
A camera also refracts, then encodes, the encoding is then transmitted, the CRT 
then decodes and reproduces the light.  This is exactly what the rods, cones and 
optic nerves do.  Your eye refracts, the rod & cones encode it refracted light, 
the optic nerve transmits it, the brain then decodes it and the mind puts it into 
context and interprets it.  So what your saying is that one encoding and decoding 
doesn't effect Mental Powers but any additional encoding and decoding does.  Why? 
 
PS: Just to stop you from saying because the optic system is part of the person. 
I'll remind you that the mind (conciousness) and brain (physical wetware) are 
different things in Champions (represented by the seperation of ego and int) as 
they are in current AI theory.  The mind is envolved in interpreting objects and 
understanding them and placing a context around them so that reasoning can be 
done.  The brains is a collection of perceptrons that that reconstruct objects 
from a partial set of lines and colors.  To the mind the number of encoding and 
decoding would not matter, only that the final set of images are interpretable. 
 
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From: HeroGames@aol.com 
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Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 23:40:57 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Hero Games Web Site News 
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Folks, 
 
I'd like to officially announce that the Hero Games web site (at 
www.herogames.com) is now being hosted by the fine folks at WebRPG 
(www.webrpg.com). This means lots of good things! For one thing, we now have 
message boards for Hero Games topics in the Town Hall Forum on WebRPG, and 
we're already starting in to talk about the Hero System, Fuzion, Champions, 
and other things. 
 
Please come by and join in! 
 
Coming in a few weeks we'll have our e-commerce site up and running, which 
means that you'll be able to do all of your Hero product ordering through the 
Internet! Yes, that includes direct downloading of electronic products... talk 
about instant gratification (and no shipping charges, either)! 
 
Which also means that we'll be real interested in seeing proposals for 
adventures. I'd like to start offering "one-evening specials": Adventures that 
you can use when you've got the gang coming over and you don't know what to 
run. Contact Bruce Harlick at brucehh@aol.com if you'd like to submit some 
proposals. 
 
Best of all, WebRPG offers a very cool setup for online roleplaying of your 
favorite games (which means ours, of course!). I encourage all of you to check 
it out. Those of you who like to fiddle around in Java may even want to help 
build some helper apps for it! Their online gaming board works on PC or Mac, 
BTW. 
 
Sorry for the commercial announcement, but I felt that everyone would want to 
hear about this. Please stop by the Hero web site and see the latest Digital 
Hero, too. OK, I'll clam up now. I have to get back to work on some very 
exciting Gen Con releases... we have a pile of products planned (including a 
very special surprise!). 
 
-- Steve Peterson, Hero Games  
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 00:50:04 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
In a message dated 98-05-28 22:03:22 EDT, you write: 
 
> > The thing to keep in mind here is that Line of Sight means that the  
> attacker 
>  > has to be able to *detect* his/her target.  (see HSR pg55)  Looking at an 
>  > image of the target on a television screen does not allow the attacker to 
>  > detect the target, only the image on the screen.  Try using the sense of  
> smell 
>  > on a target via a tv screen. 
>  > Another way to think of it might be to think of using a string to  
> represent 
>  > the sense you are using to get your LoS.  To establish LoS you would  
> connect 
>  > that piece of string from the attacker directly to the target.  If the 
>  > attacker couldn't see (detect) through a particular barrier, than the  
> string 
>  > stops short of the target, and LoS cannot be established.  If the 
attacker 
>  > connect the string, meaning he could detect the target, then LoS has been 
>  > established, and the attacker can fire away. 
>  > If the attacker is looking at a tv image of the target, the string goes  
> from 
>  > the attacker to the screen and stops.  Normal sight does not allow for 
the 
>  > attacker to use the sense of Sight along the path of photons in the tube, 
> and 
>  > then along electrons through the wires, and then along microwaves to the 
>  > television station, and then along etc. 
>  > Again, we're talking about base level of mental powers.  If a player  
> wanted to 
>  > be able to attack targets seen on tv screens, it can be done, but it's  
> going 
>  > to be messy and expensive. 
>  > 
>  > 'Lynx 
>   
>  Line of Soght is not the only way to attack with mental powers.  It's line  
> of 
>  sight or a successful Mind Scan, which as someone else stated previously,  
> points 
>  to being able to locate the mind of the target.  In HSR  on page 55 it  
> states that 
>  Mental powers are not stopped by conventional barriers and goes on to give  
> the 
>  N-Ray vision example.  So please explain how a TV is a barrier that you  
> cannot use 
>  mental powers through.  There are plenty of legends and SF stories where  
> Telepathy 
>  us used through crystal balls, is that not analigous to Mental Powers  
> through a 
>  cathode ray tube. 
>   
>   
 
Reread my post.  I didn't say it was impossible, only expensive.  At base 
level, LoS will not allow for Mental Powers to be used through a tv.  (This is 
shown by inference and example in HSR, and stated as a rule in Ultimate 
Mentalist)  However, as stated in the last sentence, that doesn't mean it 
can't be done.  You just have to purchase a few extra Powers/etc to allow for 
it.  Yes, it's done in the genre.  The Amber series, an excellent read btw, 
has something similar.  They use cards to contact the people drawn on them or 
travel to the location they're presently at.  This is exactly the same as the 
tv example.  Pure LoS would not allow for a Mental Power to be used by simply 
staring at a card, because the attacker's LoS would end at the card.  Same for 
the tv.  However, you could buy Mind Scan, only to find person on card (or 
only to find person on tv), and then you've established your pathway to use 
Mental Powers (assuming your MS is successful). 
As far as your other questions, go back and reread pg 55.  It states that 
you've got to be able to *detect* your target with the sense you're using to 
establish LoS.  Looking at a tv screen will not allow for you to detect your 
target, only an electronic reproduction of him/her.   What kind of sense is 
going to be able to first visually go from the attacker's eyes to the screen 
of the tv, then go inside the tv, (a second sense other than sight) follow the 
little electron beam back to the tube, ( a third sense), run through the 
circuitry (fourth sense), along the microwave signal from the antenae (fifth) 
to the tv station, and on and on until it gets to the live camera, where sight 
kicks in again and you're able to detect your target.  That's the deal, you've 
got to be able to use your sense(s) in a direct manner from yourself to your 
target.  The example of N-ray shows this.  A wall would normally keep you from 
attacking a target hiding behind it.  N-ray vision allows for you to use your 
sense through the wall and detect your target. 
 
'Lynx 
 
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From: "R Kemp" <baron@mail.stlnet.com> 
To: "Champs" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: RE: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 00:33:07 -0500 
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By the reasoning below, a mentalist could not attack someone on the other 
side of a windshield or pane of glass because the string would stop short of 
the target on the glass. 
 
> 
> The thing to keep in mind here is that Line of Sight means that 
> the attacker 
> has to be able to *detect* his/her target.  (see HSR pg55)  Looking at an 
> image of the target on a television screen does not allow the attacker to 
> detect the target, only the image on the screen.  Try using the 
> sense of smell 
> on a target via a tv screen. 
> Another way to think of it might be to think of using a string to 
> represent 
> the sense you are using to get your LoS.  To establish LoS you 
> would connect 
> that piece of string from the attacker directly to the target.  If the 
> attacker couldn't see (detect) through a particular barrier, than 
> the string 
> stops short of the target, and LoS cannot be established.  If the attacker 
> connect the string, meaning he could detect the target, then LoS has been 
> established, and the attacker can fire away. 
> If the attacker is looking at a tv image of the target, the 
> string goes from 
> the attacker to the screen and stops.  Normal sight does not allow for the 
> attacker to use the sense of Sight along the path of photons in 
> the tube, and 
> then along electrons through the wires, and then along microwaves to the 
> television station, and then along etc. 
> Again, we're talking about base level of mental powers.  If a 
> player wanted to 
> be able to attack targets seen on tv screens, it can be done, but 
> it's going 
> to be messy and expensive. 
> 
> 'Lynx 
> 
 
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From: Firelynx16@aol.com 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 02:16:53 EDT 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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In a message dated 98-05-29 01:45:04 EDT, you write: 
 
Reread the example...  The attacker will be able to see (detect) the target 
through the glass, because the sense (sight) is able to pass through, so the 
LoS string would also pass through the glass.  Just like it would pass through 
the opaque wall if your sense was N-Ray.  Remember, it's not a physical 
string, just an immaterial string that follows the sense(s) being used to 
target the victim. 
 
 
> By the reasoning below, a mentalist could not attack someone on the other 
>  side of a windshield or pane of glass because the string would stop short 
of 
>  the target on the glass. 
>   
>  > 
>  > The thing to keep in mind here is that Line of Sight means that 
>  > the attacker 
>  > has to be able to *detect* his/her target.  (see HSR pg55)  Looking at an 
>  > image of the target on a television screen does not allow the attacker to 
>  > detect the target, only the image on the screen.  Try using the 
>  > sense of smell 
>  > on a target via a tv screen. 
>  > Another way to think of it might be to think of using a string to 
>  > represent 
>  > the sense you are using to get your LoS.  To establish LoS you 
>  > would connect 
>  > that piece of string from the attacker directly to the target.  If the 
>  > attacker couldn't see (detect) through a particular barrier, than 
>  > the string 
>  > stops short of the target, and LoS cannot be established.  If the 
attacker 
>  > connect the string, meaning he could detect the target, then LoS has been 
>  > established, and the attacker can fire away. 
>  > If the attacker is looking at a tv image of the target, the 
>  > string goes from 
>  > the attacker to the screen and stops.  Normal sight does not allow for 
the 
>  > attacker to use the sense of Sight along the path of photons in 
>  > the tube, and 
>  > then along electrons through the wires, and then along microwaves to the 
>  > television station, and then along etc. 
>  > Again, we're talking about base level of mental powers.  If a 
>  > player wanted to 
>  > be able to attack targets seen on tv screens, it can be done, but 
>  > it's going 
>  > to be messy and expensive. 
>  > 
>  > 'Lynx 
>  > 
>   
>   
>   
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 18:04:10 +0800 
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au> 
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au 
Organization: Only One Inc. 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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> >> Superleap: power 
> > 
> >Normals cannot buy Superleap. 
>  
> which would make a great many athletes impossible. (unless all  
> athletes are superhuman) 
 
In fact, there is the option in heroic games to have extra Running 
increase the leaping distance. I believe this is just before the 
Combat section; something along the lines of +1" Running = +1 metre 
leaping distance. 
 
Of course, this means that long jumpers that aren't sprinters 
have to buy Running with "Only to increase leaping distance" 
limitations, which are a lot more "crocky" than simply letting 
them buy a few inches Superleap. 
--  
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza) 
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment." 
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 18:14:08 +0800 
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au> 
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au 
Organization: Only One Inc. 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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(About maximum Running speed for a normal) 
> > My bad... that should be 15", not 16".  Rest of the math should be > > figured accordingly. 
>  
> 12.5".  Normals pay 4 CPs/1" running over 10". 
 
Uh... am I the only one who remembers that this whole "automatic 
push" thing probably doesn't apply in heroic campaigns? That is, 
you can't automatically Push by 10 AP - you have to make an 
EGO roll, and you get 5 AP + 1 per 2 points you make the roll 
by. 
 
Seems to me that your average athlete isn't going to be getting 
much out of that Push - +1", or maybe +2 on a good day. 
--  
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza) 
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment." 
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 18:22:43 +0800 
From: GAZZA <gazza@wantree.com.au> 
Reply-To: gazza@wantree.com.au 
Organization: Only One Inc. 
To: Champions Mailing List <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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> > To be fair: if they can be built without powers, then they can be  
> > built  with powers, too. 
>  
> No, they cannot.  You do not use one power to simulate another. 
 
Eh? 
 
Are you suggesting that certain abilities can only be bought 
"the one, true way"? That's ludicrous. 
 
To take some simple examples: 
 
Running up buildings - 
Running + Clinging 
Limited Flight 
Or even limited Teleportation 
 
Tough skin (as in "bounces bullets") - 
Armour 
Force Field, 0 END, Persistent, Invisible Power Effects 
Damage Resistance 
Or even limited Force Wall 
 
There are numerous examples. In many cases, the only reason to choose 
one over the other is COST - not because one is any "better" than 
the other. 
 
> Powers are used when you go beyond what the skill is capable of  
> accomplishing. 
 
IMHO, and in the opinions of many, rapid climbing ability under 
poor conditions IS beyond what the skill is capable of accomplishing. 
We can buy into the "extraordinary skill" stuff, if we like, but 
that's certainly no MORE correct than buying a limited Power like 
Clinging to simulate it. 
 
Arguably, if extraordinary skill use was the be-all and end-all 
that Rat seems to think it is, it would be a CORE rule rather than 
an optional one. 
--  
GAZZA (gazza@wantree.com.au; http://www.wantree.com.au/~gazza) 
"To know others is wisdom. To know oneself is enlightment." 
 
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From: SteveL1979@aol.com 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 06:57:18 EDT 
To: hero-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Bab 5 Hero: Races; Non-aligned worlds 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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In a message dated 98-05-28 23:34:44 EDT, tstatler@igateway.net writes: 
 
<< Any suggestions for the GAIM or the Brae'Keiree (sp?) >> 
 
  It's "Brakiri." :) 
  As a suggestion, check out the CD-ROM, "J. Michael Straczynski's (sp?) 
Official Guide To Babylon-5."  It has a good bit of information about each of 
the races that I haven't seen listed anywhere else. 
  Re: the Brakiri and other League races specifically, Chameleon 
Eclectic/Wireframe Productions will soon be out with a book about them for THE 
BABYLON PROJECT RPG that incorporates the "Official Guide's" info as well as 
data from show scripts and other such sources. 
 
Steve Long 
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 09:15:41 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting VPP 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>   That would be no more "perfectly fine" than for that same character to 
go around hitting people with a 3d6 HA club (again, maximum damage is 6 
BODY -- and in both cases, by the way, the character can add STR to get 12 
BODY).  Whether it's a fishing knife or a crowbar, it's still assault with 
a dangerous weapon, it still *can* do fatal damage (especially if Hit 
Locations and/or Bleeding rules are used), and it still has to be used with 
caution.< 
 
Ah, I gotcha.  It's the same thing as AD&D clerics only using bludgeoning 
weapons, because they don't want to kill.  Huh?  The rules make no 
distinction between the lethality of blunt weapons vs sharp weapons, so 
that limitation doesn't really make sense.  HSR is different, though, 
because it DOES make a distinction in that some forms of attack are much 
more likely to kill than others. 
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 07:08:13 -0700 
To: HeroGames@aol.com, champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Hero Games Web Site News 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 11:40 PM 5/28/1998 EDT, HeroGames@aol.com wrote: 
>I'd like to officially announce that the Hero Games web site (at 
>www.herogames.com) is now being hosted by the fine folks at WebRPG 
>(www.webrpg.com). This means lots of good things! For one thing, we now have 
>message boards for Hero Games topics in the Town Hall Forum on WebRPG, and 
>we're already starting in to talk about the Hero System, Fuzion, Champions, 
>and other things. 
> 
>Please come by and join in! 
 
   This is welcome news.  I hope to stop by periodically.  :-] 
 
>Best of all, WebRPG offers a very cool setup for online roleplaying of your 
>favorite games (which means ours, of course!). I encourage all of you to 
check 
>it out. Those of you who like to fiddle around in Java may even want to help 
>build some helper apps for it! Their online gaming board works on PC or Mac, 
>BTW. 
 
   I may just break down and run a periodic game on WebRPG.  I've already 
taken a look at the system, and it looks really nifty. 
 
>Sorry for the commercial announcement, but I felt that everyone would want to 
>hear about this. Please stop by the Hero web site and see the latest Digital 
>Hero, too. OK, I'll clam up now. I have to get back to work on some very 
>exciting Gen Con releases... we have a pile of products planned (including a 
>very special surprise!). 
 
   Steve, neither you nor GRG has any need to apologize for making 
commerical announcements on the list (at least IMRHO).  These are always 
welcome; after all, the list is as much for news on Hero System stuff as it 
is for discussion. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 11:19:33 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Shapeshifting VPP 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Thu, 28 May 1998, David Stallard wrote: 
 
> >   Also, it bears pointing out that if a target has any resistant defense 
> at all, he also gets to apply his non-resistant defense against the STUN of 
> a Killing attack (HSR, page 160, second paragraph under "Killing Attacks"). 
>  
> You're the second person to mention this, and it totally floored me.  I 
> don't ever remember reading this rule, and I've never been a player in a 
> campaign which was aware of it. 
 
That's interesting, I have just the opposite experience - a lot of players 
I encounter don't realize that you need any resistant defense before you 
can apply your full defense against the STUN of a KA. 
 
> That's an awful lot of years to be doing things the wrong way.  -grin- 
> Hmmm...this is probably my best shot for getting this min-maxing player to 
> stop using HKAs just because of the (potential for) high STUN vs (usually) 
> low resistant defense.  Almost everybody has at least a few points of 
> resistant defense, so he will almost never see a lot of his HKA STUN 
> getting through. 
 
Trouble is, a Killing Attack will still do more STUN-after-defenses on 
average than a Normal Attack of the same DCs. (Unless your campaign has 
an unusually low defense-to-attack AP ratio.) 
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 07:32:52 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 09:34 PM 5/28/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
>> Yes, but the light is not the issue. If you look through binoculars, you 
see the target. If you look at a television screen, you see a picture of 
the target that does not necessarily have any connection to the actual 
location of the target. One tells you where the target is, not only an 
absolute sense (He is in the Oval Office), but in a relative sense as well 
(he is to my right, over my head, exactly there). The other does not. 
> 
>Granted, but does not knowing that the target is in the Oval Office give 
the egoist's mind scan roll no minuses.  Also it the target was on a 
survaillance camera and the exact location of the area being viewed was 
well known to the egoist and its relative location to their location then, 
by your reasoning, the mind scan would not be necessary. 
 
   Now here you're talking about penalties to Mind Scan, which stands 
unique among Mental Powers in that it locates a target rather than 
affecting the target directly. 
 
>> > Why not?  If your SuperRifle(TM) is hooked into the system why 
couldn't you target it that way.  The B in ICBM stands for Ballistic, 
meaning an archin tragectory.  ICBM are targetted using satelites yet the 
use ballistic tragectory just like your SuperRif 
>le(TM).  I see not difference here. 
>> 
>> _IF_ my SR was hooked into the system, you would be correct. However, I 
am not talking about if it was part of the system. That would give it the 
same Targetting Sense as the missile. I am talking about looking at a TV 
screen, and knowing by looking at the  
>screen how to aim a weapon in my hands. Unless I know exactly what 
relation in space the camera has to me, that is impossible. 
>> 
>> My brain is not hooked into the system, so I cannot use the cameras as a 
Targeting Sense. 
> 
>Your Eyes are the targeting sence, I hope your brain is hooked up to your 
eyes :) 
 
   Yes, the eyes to make up a targeting sense.  They make up a great 
targeting sense for hitting the monitor.  However, as has been pointed out 
repeatedly, your eyes are not seeing the location being targeted; they're 
seeing a picture of it on the monitor.  If the Super Rifle is not hooked 
into the video system, and you're only using your eyes and a TV monitor to 
target it, you're not going to be able to draw a bead. 
   Sitting here in my living room, I doubt that I could even accurately 
point within 5 degrees of the direction of the White House, and I have a 
pretty good direction sense.  In fact, I know the layout of Corvallis, and 
specifically the campus of Oregon State University (where I used to work) 
pretty darn well.  If you were to blindfold me and set me loose at the 
front door of the Administration Building, I could still find my way to the 
location my old desk (in the basement) with little or no trouble, even 
though I haven't been there in five years.  I could even do that from here 
if I weren't afraid of running into a telephone pole or getting hit by a 
car.  But I doubt that I could aim a Super Rifle at the Admin Building, let 
alone my old desk, without being able to lay my eyes on it, and I doubt 
that just a picture of it on the public access channel would help. 
   Knowing the OSU campus as I do, I could probably target my Mind Scan 
fairly well in that area (if I had Mind Scan, that is).  But that's a whole 
different kettle of fish. 
 
>Niether the camera nor the missile are doing the targetting it the pilot 
that is doing the targetting.  The camera is giving him a group of targets 
to shoot at.  The pilot selects a target and then targets the missile.  The 
computer then does its best to hit the targetted location. 
 
   How does the pilot select the target?  As I mentioned previously, I 
seriously doubt that he just looks at the monitor, decides on a target, and 
aims the missile without further guidance.  There are other factors involved. 
 
>> If your camera is set up so that a man, walking into the room, can, 
solely by looking at the screen, aim his super gun and hit a man standing 
by the camera, then it can be used as a targetting sense. TV does not meet 
this criteria. You cannot walk into a video store, see a live broadcast on 
the television, aim your supergun, and expect to hit the reporter hundreds 
or thousands of miles away. All of your examples are targetting systems, 
and looking at the monitor you know where the target is. A television 
camera doesn't meet the criteria. 
> 
>Given a calculator, map and mussle volicity to accelerant equation, I 
could do calculate the angles and amount of acceleratn necessary for such a 
shot.  It's very basic trig.  Given time to prepare set knowns ahead of 
time and a programmable calculator the shot could be set up in less then a 
minute.  Of course the advantage of Ego powers is no tragetory knowledge is 
needed just the relative location of the target. 
 
   Ah, and there's the difference!  You're using a map, and calculating 
angles, not using *solely* the video system!  If one could use the video 
system as a targeting sense (in the Hero System sense of the term), then 
the map and calculations would not be necessary; you could just aim and 
fire.  With the map and calculations, you could still make a fairly 
accurate shot, but you're still essentially firing blind (again, in terms 
of Hero mechanics). 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 07:40:52 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:25 PM 5/28/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
>Bob Greenwade wrote: 
> 
>> At 09:52 PM 5/27/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
>> >Bob Greenwade wrote: 
>>    It's not a physical difference that makes the difference.  It's a 
>> logistical difference.   In the case of binoculars or a mirror, the photons 
>> are coming from the target.  In the case of a television screen, the 
>> photons are coming from a television screen. 
> 
>So the source of the light makes the difference?  Do neon lights, 
incandescent, 
>electrical impedence and nuclear light have differing effects on Mental 
Powers. 
>Since incandescent and neon are softer then the light pruduced by a 
television do 
>they have adverse effects on the targetting capacity of the light they 
produce for 
>egoists? 
 
   No.  Neon lights, incadescent lights, electrical impedence lights, and 
nuclear light sources do not have minds (at least, as a rule; we are 
talking about a superhero world, after all), and so cannot be targeted by 
Mental Powers.  I don't know why anyone would even propose trying such a 
thing. 
   However, any living being from which those lights reflect do have minds, 
and can be targeted. 
 
>>    This is done by providing other frames of reference.  In the case of 
>> missile guidance, that frame of reference is provided by the expert systems 
>> of the type that you used to write.  The gunner isn't just looking at a 
>> video screen and shooting out the window, is he?  No, he's not really 
>> targeting the weapon himself, but telling the computer where to target -- 
>> otherwise, how does the computer know where it's supposed to hit? 
> 
>The expert systems provide no frame of reference, they provide guidence 
from one 
>location to another.  In short the computer is flying from point A to 
point B. 
>Point B is the location on the HUD that the pilot has selected as the 
target.  The 
>missile and the expert system know nothing about what point B is.  Whether 
its a 
>giant city eating lizard, a T 80 tank or a crowd of  innocent bystanders,  it 
>makes no difference to the missile.  It simply goes there and detonates.  The 
>selection of the target (point B) is done by the gunner on a 2 inch by 2 inch 
>video disply that is sitting a few inches in front of his eye. 
 
   But how does he aim the missile?  Aren't the monitor and aiming system 
linked together somehow?  Or does he just see the image on the monitor and 
somehow "know" where that is relative to his weapon, punch in those 
relative coordinates, and fire? 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 11:41:23 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 26 May 1998, John Lansford wrote: 
 
> On Mon, 25 May 1998 15:35:33 -0300 (ADT), you wrote: 
>  
> >You don't agree that said line is unhelpful, then? 
>  
> No. I can tell who said what by looking at the procession of names on 
> the mailing list. 
 
Huh? What does that mean? 
 
> >How hard is it to become part of the audience for a public debate? 
>  
> Mental powers have to be visible unless the invisible power advantage 
> is purchased. 
 
If you were talking about Third Edition rules, you should have said so 
up front. 
 
> >I'm inclined to think it's fairly easy to get within binocular range 
> >of any public figure, if you're willing to expend the time. 
>  
> That's why important government officials have "official" mentalists 
> looking out for people like that in my campaign. Unofficially, of 
> course. 
 
If you're willing to allow for the existence of exotic defenses to thwart 
binocular-based attacks, why are you not willing to allow such defenses 
for TV-based attacks? 
 
> NPC's with useful powers like danger sense, teleportation and 
> force wall help out too, without being in costume to draw attention to 
> themselves. None of this would help if the attacker used a TV screen 
> to launch his attack from across the continent, though. 
 
Read the description of Mental Awareness. If the target of the attack 
has mentalists watching for an attack, they'll be able to detect the 
source of the attack, period. Danger sense is not going to be any 
less effective against long-range attacks either. (And is what Force 
Wall supposed to accomplish?) 
 
> >I can see SFX reasons for not allowing it (why exactly does a mentalist 
> >need "line of sight", anyway?), but the play balance arguments aren't 
> >very convincing IMODO. 
>  
> It is very unbalancing. What other type of character can use such an 
> advantage? Mentalists could just sit in the HQ building and let the 
> rest of the group wear little cameras and attack targets with 
> impunity. Note this would work for both sides. 
 
They can do that anyway, if the HQ is tall enough. As can anybody 
with a No Range Mod attack, for that matter. 
 
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From: Joe Mucchiello <why@superlink.net> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 10:44:06 -0400 (EDT) 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
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Steven Mitchell <mdmitche@advicom.net> said: 
> Joe Mucchiello writes:  
> >I still don't think this is possible.  Maybe I don't really understand  
> what  
> >it is you want.  So, a challenge:   
>   
> >Write two pages about claws.  What would these pages look like?  What are  
> >the contents?  I just cannot for the life of me see what these pages would  
> >be.  Then, write some pages about wings.  And then demonstrate your pages  
> >by creating a hawk.  (We'll ignore bites for this.)  I don't think what  
> you  
> >are asking for is simple or straight forward.  I think that if you do it,  
> >half of the responses will be what is wrong with this or that example and  
> >the other half will be things you did not consider.  This idea cannot  
> work.    
>   
> Challenge accepted.  I don't think I'll do two pages on claws, because part  
> of the point if that those two pages should include a lot of different  
> methods for claws, from different campaigns.  However, I think I can come  
> up with something close enough to illustrate my point.  Just be prepared to  
> wait a little while, since I have a game session coming up soon.  (I never  
> said it could be done quickly and easily--just that it would work better  
> and would be worth the effort :-)  
 
That's the part I don't think is possible.  In two pages you will either 
write too much about the differences between HA, RHA, Reduced Penetration 
and the like or you will run out of room trying to come up with every 
possibility.  Oh, and I'm glad you are going to take your time with this. 
I don't want you to shortchange your own idea.  Good luck. 
 
> I will say this:  Your method works great for you.  But how would you  
> communicate the nuances of your play and your source material to another  
> person--especially that "guy in the store"?  Long ago, before we found  
> Hero, a friend and I designed our own game, to get around what we did not  
> like in AD&D.  Surprisingly, it played a lot like Hero, except much more  
> open-ended.  It had all kinds of design and play balance problems, yet we  
> were able to successfully run games using it.  The only other problem was  
> that you had to be one of the designers to run it.  No one else could  
> understand it, and we certainly couldn't have explained it.     
 
I think everybody has rewritten parts of AD&D that they did not like. 
People on this list are always tweaking HERO.  I'll bet that you can not 
find a single long-running gaming group using any RPG system as written. 
Most RPGs disclaim their rules with a "Do it your own way if you don't 
like what you see in here" clause. 
 
I never said my way was explainable.  I know it is not.  I use the same 
method when I GM AD&D, too.  I've also run storytelling games where the 
only character sheet is the background the player wrote about his 
character.  As I said before, I just don't think infinite examples is 
really going to help sell HERO to enough people to be worth the effort. 
 
  Joe 
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 07:51:33 -0700 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:39 PM 5/28/1998 -0500, Ross Rannells wrote: 
>> >>    The proper question is: Can you draw an unobstructed line of 
vision from 
>> >> the attacker to the target by way of the visual aid?  With the 
binoculars, 
>> >> the answer is a clear yes; with the TV camera, the answer is no. 
>> >>    (The reason I say "line of vision" is that lenses, mirrors, and 
prisms 
>> >> alter the flow of light and thus bend the line of vision.) 
>> > 
>> >  Binoculars also use lenses to alter the flow of light so do glasses, sun 
>> >glasses, mirrors, windows, water and even air temperature effect refaction 
>> >gradients.  So by this arguement anything that significantly effects the 
>> >refraction gradient of light will block Mental Powers.  Which means 
binoculars 
>> >would block Mental Powers.  I think we have all agreed that this simply 
is not 
>> >the case. 
>> 
>>    Go back and re-read what I wrote. 
>>    Rat used the simple word "line."  I was modifying that to "line of 
>> vision" for the very reason you point out -- everything you list above 
>> either reflects or refracts light.  "Line of vision" takes that into 
>> account.  (And isn't that term basically synonymous with "line of sight"?) 
> 
>A camera also refracts, then encodes, the encoding is then transmitted, 
the CRT 
>then decodes and reproduces the light.  This is exactly what the rods, 
cones and 
>optic nerves do.  Your eye refracts, the rod & cones encode it refracted 
light, 
>the optic nerve transmits it, the brain then decodes it and the mind puts 
it into 
>context and interprets it.  So what your saying is that one encoding and 
decoding 
>doesn't effect Mental Powers but any additional encoding and decoding 
does.  Why? 
 
   Because your brain is hard-wired to use your eyes for targeting.  Your 
eyes tell you exactly where things are relative to you.  The camera does 
not do that, and that information is vital for using any attack -- it's the 
definition of what a Targeting Sense does. 
 
>PS: Just to stop you from saying because the optic system is part of the 
person. 
>I'll remind you that the mind (conciousness) and brain (physical wetware) are 
>different things in Champions (represented by the seperation of ego and 
int) as 
>they are in current AI theory.  The mind is envolved in interpreting 
objects and 
>understanding them and placing a context around them so that reasoning can be 
>done.  The brains is a collection of perceptrons that that reconstruct 
objects 
>from a partial set of lines and colors.  To the mind the number of 
encoding and 
>decoding would not matter, only that the final set of images are 
interpretable. 
 
   Actually, it's not so much because the optic system is part of the 
person as because the camera is not in any way connected to the person. 
You've been focusing on absolute position as a key to targeting (hence your 
need for a map in another argument); think instead in terms of the relative 
position -- the *exact* relative position -- of the target. 
   Look at any live video feed.  You cannot tell, *unaided*, where the 
subject of that live feed *is in relation to you*, within a two-meter error 
tolerance, even if the feed is coming from just a couple of blocks away. 
You could, of course, figure out its absolute location, and work out its 
relative location.  Given a map, a calculator, and a bit of time, you could 
probably figure it out, but within that time the target would very probably 
move and you'd have to calculate all over again -- not to mention the fact 
that this is *calculating* the relative location of the target, not 
targeting it by a sense. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 12:01:33 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Police Portrayal in Campaigns/ Good and Bad cops 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 26 May 1998, Robert A. West wrote: 
 
> ==================================================================== 
> Case #5: 
>  
> The incident in Langley was covered up as a military plane crash.  The  
> PCs sent an anonymous letter to the DCI, attempting to straighten out the  
> "Little misunderstanding in Langley," 
 
The DCI had authority here? Man, WotC really is buying out everybody!:) 
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 12:05:26 -0300 (ADT) 
From: Trevor Barrie <tbarrie@ibm.net> 
To: champion mailing list <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
On Tue, 26 May 1998, Rick Holding wrote: 
 
> > You roll a die, apply the modifiers, see how high they got and check what 
> > a spell of that level can do according to the guidelines. Where's the 
> > complexity? 
>  
> 	I have played the system a couple of times with people who have played 
> it a lot.  Certainly it works the way that you have described as far as 
> determining the result of any spell.  But the way these people rattled of 
> the effects they were after during SPONTANIOUS magic (ie. no predetermined 
> spell) left me in their dust.  
 
I was talking about Spontaneous magic. If you're casting a pre-defined 
(Formulaic) spell, the procedure is different. (You don't determine what 
a roll of such-and-such can do, you just compare your roll to the pre- 
calculated spell level.) 
 
 
>  It is the play of combinations of various fields of magic that takes time 
> to get used to.  THATS what I mean by being complex. 
 
I can't imagine it, given how intuitively obvious said combinations are. 
(If your spell creates fire, you use "Create" and "Fire". If your spell 
manipulates rock, you use "Control" and "Earth". Seems pretty simple.) 
 
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From: Dave Mattingly <dmattingly@platsoft.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: RE: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 08:10:42 -0700 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> Joe Mucchiello writes:  
>I just don't think infinite examples is really going to  
>help sell HERO to enough people to be worth the effort. 
 
I hope you're not the only one who thinks this way. I proposed The 
Ultimate Superhero as a Hero Plus product a few weeks ago. Besides 
discussions on the nature of superheroes and the worlds they live in, 
etc., there are going to be lots of archetype examples, and a very large 
list of predefined superpowers (which should cover about 90% of 
character conceptions). 
 
New players can quickly create and scale characters by selecting, for 
example, a muscle-bound mutant vigilante cab driver with wings and quick 
healing, or a paranoid teleporting scientist with a glider cape and 
hypnosis. 
 
Dave Mattingly 
http://www.haymaker.org 
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 10:31:01 -0500 
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: A Golden Age Campaign with a Twist 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
Uncommon Solutions...when you need a better way! 
http://www.uncommonsolutions.com 
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 08:32:34 -0700 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Bob Greenwade <bob.greenwade@klock.com> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
At 10:44 AM 5/29/1998 -0400, Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
>I think everybody has rewritten parts of AD&D that they did not like. 
>People on this list are always tweaking HERO.  I'll bet that you can not 
>find a single long-running gaming group using any RPG system as written. 
>Most RPGs disclaim their rules with a "Do it your own way if you don't 
>like what you see in here" clause. 
 
   I betcha Rat's group uses HSR exactly as written!  :-] 
 
>I never said my way was explainable.  I know it is not.  I use the same 
>method when I GM AD&D, too.  I've also run storytelling games where the 
>only character sheet is the background the player wrote about his 
>character.  As I said before, I just don't think infinite examples is 
>really going to help sell HERO to enough people to be worth the effort. 
 
   Still, copious examples can be helpful for those who are just breaking 
into the Hero System, or who like it for reasons other than its 
"roll-your-own" qualities, or who are playing it because that's what 
everyone else is playing. 
   In TUMA there are a couple hundred weapons; these are handy for those 
who want to just say, "Joe carries a katana," rather than try to build one 
from scratch or from the katana carried by a published character.  I've 
taken that cue and provided a few hundred pre-fab weapons in TUSV, along 
with a like number of other pre-fab systems (defenses, movement, senses, 
and other systems).  I suspect that most players will want to build their 
own weapons and other systems, but these are provided for the convenience 
of those others, as well as to serve as examples of how certain methods of 
construction (various Powers, Advantages, and such) can be done. 
--- 
Bob's Original Hero Stuff Page!  [Circle of HEROs member] 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/original.htm 
Homepage of the Merry-Go-Round Webring!  (Wanna join?) 
   http://www.klock.com/public/users/bob.greenwade/merrhome.htm 
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 10:33:06 -0500 
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: A Golden Age Campaign with a Twist  
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Sorry! I sent out a blank copy of this message before. 
 
Before America enters World War II, a supervillain (call him Mastermind for the sake of this premise) manages to kill off most of America's major superheroes (excuse me, "mystery men").  This leaves America woefully unprotected from Axis ubermenschen, and America's industries and shipping are soon crippled.  The war goes badly for the Allies, and the world eventually falls under the Axis juggernaut. After the war, Mastermind soon discards his puppet, Hitler, and takes the whole ball of wax for himself. (Mastermind has discovered a process to imbue others with the potential for superpowers, a process which is known as the Zarathustra Formula). 
 
Fifty years later, the last remnants of American/Allied resistance try one last, desperate gamble: sending a special team of operatives back in time to prevent the deaths of America's greatest heroes.  They'll have only one shot at it, as the machine which sent them back in time will probably cease to exist once they change history, stranding them in their past. In addition, the operatives are armed with the Zarathustra Formula, so they could have super-powers, too. 
 
The heroes arrive back in the past---too late to prevent the deaths of the superheroes, due to the margin of error involved in the time-travel process. Unless the operatives can stop Mastermind, they are doomed to repeat history. 
 
Sound good? This is just an idea I'm monkeying around with. 
 
Uncommon Solutions...when you need a better way! 
http://www.uncommonsolutions.com 
 
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From: Curt Hicks <exucurt@exu.ericsson.se> 
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 11:17:09 -0500 (CDT) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: A Golden Age Campaign with a Twist 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
> From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net> 
 
Sounds really neat !   
Also somewhat similar to _The_Proteus_Operation_ by James P. Hogan (I think). No super 
powers in that though.  I like the idea that the operatives may not initially have  
powers themself until they travel through time and then are able to make use of the 
Zarathustra process.  (Since in the present day, there's no way they can get access 
to the components.)  
 
Obvious question is where or better *when* Mastermind came from ?    
 
Curt 
 
>  
> Before America enters World War II, a supervillain (call him Mastermind for the sake of this premise) manages to kill off most of America's major superheroes (excuse me, "mystery men").  This leaves America woefully unprotected from Axis ubermenschen, and America's industries and shipping are soon crippled.  The war goes badly for the Allies, and the world eventually falls under the Axis juggernaut. After the war, Mastermind soon discards his puppet, Hitler, and takes the whole ball of wax for himself. (Mastermind has discovered a process to imbue others with the potential for superpowers, a process which is known as the Zarathustra Formula). 
>  
> Fifty years later, the last remnants of American/Allied resistance try one last, desperate gamble: sending a special team of operatives back in time to prevent the deaths of America's greatest heroes.  They'll have only one shot at it, as the machine which sent them back in time will probably cease to exist once they change history, stranding them in their past. In addition, the operatives are armed with the Zarathustra Formula, so they could have super-powers, too. 
>  
> The heroes arrive back in the past---too late to prevent the deaths of the superheroes, due to the margin of error involved in the time-travel process. Unless the operatives can stop Mastermind, they are doomed to repeat history. 
>  
> Sound good? This is just an idea I'm monkeying around with. 
>  
> Uncommon Solutions...when you need a better way! 
> http://www.uncommonsolutions.com 
>  
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 11:45:45 -0500 
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: A Golden Age Campaign with a Twist 
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On 5/29/98, at 11:28 AM, Curt Hicks wrote:  
>Sounds really neat !   
>Also somewhat similar to _The_Proteus_Operation_ by James P. Hogan (I think). No super 
>powers in that though.  I like the idea that the operatives may not initially have  
>powers themself until they travel through time and then are able to make use of the 
>Zarathustra process.  (Since in the present day, there's no way they can get access 
>to the components.)  
> 
>Obvious question is where or better *when* Mastermind came from ?    
> 
>Curt 
 
Thanks, Curt! It owes a bit to "The Terminator" and the X-Men "Days of Future Past" sequence, too, to give it its true lineage. 
 
I'll probably have to figure out what exactly the "Zarathustra Formula" is and what it does. Wonder what the PCs will need to get it going? Maybe they just don't have the resources to use it themselves in the future, but the US Government does... Perhaps Mastermind used Hitler's death-camp experiments to discover the formula, meaning that 1940s technology is quite capable of producing the Formula. 
 
Is Mastermind a time-traveller from another timeline still? Dunno. I had in mind that he wasn't, but it could be interesting. It could open up the whole campaign to time-travellers from still other timelines, trying to change their own futures. Might be a can of worms I don't want to open. 
 
Keep the comments coming! 
 
Guy 
 
Uncommon Solutions...when you need a better way! 
http://www.uncommonsolutions.com 
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 17:11:08 +0000 
From: Mark Lemming <icepirat@ix.netcom.com> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Joe Mucchiello wrote: 
> AD&D spells would take up hundreds of pages and they would not be balanced 
> in the same way AD&D balances them.  (With tradition, of course.) 
>  
>   Hero Game 
> >could probably negotiate the right to do the conversion without any 
> >trouble.  ("Let's see WoC/TSR.  You have 3 core rule books, plus a handful 
> >of rules supplements.  You might lose a few sales of those.  OTOH, you have 
> >literally hundreds of source books and modules for your various worlds. 
> >And we just made them much more desirable for Hero players.") 
>  
> Who is going to write this? 
 
Joe has a AD&D conversion at http://www.planetx.org 
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 12:16:25 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: A Golden Age Campaign with a Twist 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Guy Hoyle wrote: 
 
> I'll probably have to figure out what exactly the "Zarathustra 
> Formula" is and what it does. Wonder what the PCs will need to get it 
> going? Maybe they just don't have the resources to use it themselves 
> in the future, but the US Government does... Perhaps Mastermind used 
> Hitler's death-camp experiments to discover the formula, meaning that 
> 1940s technology is quite capable of producing the Formula. 
 
Hmm... if you want to throw a bit of moral dilemma at the PCs...  Let 
them discover that the 'formula' requires innocent(s) to die.  Either 
some kind of 'life force' thing, or maybe it requires some small part of 
the brain that the host can't live without. Hitler's 'death camps' were 
actually a cover.  All of the people that were killed were used to 
create Mastermind's supers. 
 
Now the PCs have a choice to make.  In order to stop Mastermind, they 
need superpowers.  Are they willing to sacrifice innocent lives to stop 
Mastermind and save the future?  Will they attempt to do it with OUT 
superpowers?  Will they offer to be the 'innocents', and sacrifice their 
own lives in order to create supers to oppose Mastermind? 
 
Of course, this storyline travels in the direction of the controversial 
'Wings of the Valkryrie' module..  but if your players are ready to 
handle a mature subject like this, it could bring about some really 
intense role playing. 
 
And, of course, the GM also has to be prepared for the consequences.  
There's bound to be at least ONE PC who will insist on sacrificing 
him/herself in order to give someone else superpowers.  In a past game I 
had a GM who didn't know how to react when a PC insisted on giving HIS 
spacesuit to a normal (child).  It was perfectly in character for that 
hero to sacrifice his own life for another, but the GM hadn't expected 
to lose a long-time character like this, and didnt know how to handle 
it. 
 
Of course, in THIS case, the PC could then play the person from the 
1940's who then recieves the superpowers.. and maybe even travels back 
to the future with the rest of the group...  
 
  
> Is Mastermind a time-traveller from another timeline still? Dunno. I 
> had in mind that he wasn't, but it could be interesting. It could open 
> up the whole campaign to time-travellers from still other timelines, 
> trying to change their own futures. Might be a can of worms I don't 
> want to open. 
 
I would just make him a 'mad scientist' type, or maybe a science/sorcery 
type like Dr Doom.  Someone who is way ahead of his time and takes 
advantage of that fact to take over the world. 
 
Great scenario Guy!  Ideas like this are why I subscribe to this list! 
 
 
Todd 
 
--  
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
 Todd Hanson                       Minnesota: Land of two seasons: 
 BadTodd@dacmail.net               winter is coming, winter is here. 
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 13:27:15 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: House Rules (was Re: How Complicated Is Champions?) 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by Joe Mucchiello 
>I think everybody has rewritten parts of AD&D that they did not like. 
People on this list are always tweaking HERO.  I'll bet that you can not 
find a single long-running gaming group using any RPG system as written. 
Most RPGs disclaim their rules with a "Do it your own way if you don't 
like what you see in here" clause.< 
 
I know I'm in the minority (heh...party of 1) here, but I despise house 
rules.  I hate it when I am reading a rulebook and I come across the phrase 
"the GM should decide such-and-such"...I generally view it as a cop-out on 
the part of the writers--if it is important enough to mention in the first 
place, then they should have at least given some guidelines (this happens A 
LOT in the Champions: New Millennium book, but I digress).  When I buy an 
RPG rulebook, I am buying it to get some rules, not to get a vague 
framework that essentially requires umpteen hours of "homework" (house 
rules design) to make it workable.  As a GM, I stick to the "written word" 
as much as possible (any house rules I have generally are only for balance 
and are only effective during character creation...I don't do anything 
drastic like change how combat works).  If you read a rulebook and find 
that it isn't possible to play without generating pages of house rules, 
then I'd say the rulebook could use some improvement.  I also have this 
phobia that if I stray from the written word too much, then I am destroying 
game balance, because a change in one place could have effects in many 
other places.  This is probably a bit irrational on my part, but I haven't 
been able to shake it. 
 
I generally view GMs who have tomes of house rules as "Armchair game 
designers"....  Not to say that this is bad, but I think that rules 
modification and design has become somewhat of a hobby for them and they 
would make their own versions of things regardless of how effective the 
original things are. 
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 10:36:01 -0700 (PDT) 
From: John Desmarais <johndesmarais@yahoo.com> 
Reply-To: john.desmarais@ibm.net 
Subject: Re: House Rules (was Re: How Complicated Is Champions?) 
To: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Cc: "\[unknown\]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
---David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> wrote: 
> 
> Message text written by Joe Mucchiello 
> >I think everybody has rewritten parts of AD&D that they did not like. 
> People on this list are always tweaking HERO.  I'll bet that you can 
not 
> find a single long-running gaming group using any RPG system as 
written. 
> Most RPGs disclaim their rules with a "Do it your own way if you don't 
> like what you see in here" clause.< 
>  
> I know I'm in the minority (heh...party of 1) here, but I despise 
house 
> rules.  
 
Actually, for the most part, I tend to avoid them as well (although 
for different reasons than your's).  The nature of the gaming group(s) 
that I used to game with made house rules a needless complication: 
Instead of one dedicated group, what I gamed with was actually 3 
intermingling groups involving about 6 different game masters, not a 
good enviroment for rules modifications. 
 
Oh, another house-rules related oddity I've encountered (usually at 
convention games) - people who don't realize that they've been using 
modified rules.  I met many players who never really read the rules 
(to whatever game was in questions at the time) carefully, just 
learned from a GM who had his own set of house rules.  What a disaster 
con-games were, with folks who didn't know the rules but were 
convinced they did. 
 
 
== 
 
 
     John Desmarais  <champ-l-owner@sysabend.org> 
===================================================== 
Got a question about the Hero/Champions mailing list? 
Just ask.  Or, scope out www.sysabend.org/champions.  
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 17:37:56 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
 
 
> From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
>  
>  
>  
> Filksinger wrote: 
>  
> > > From: Ross Rannells 
> > > 
> > <snip> 
> > > > 
> > > > Yes, the camera will allow you to see the target, but it does not give you 
> > > > line of sight to that target. 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Neither does Mind Scan, yet it allows you to attack. 
> > 
> > Mind Scan is a Targeting Sense, and as such does give you "line of sight" to the target. 
> > 
> > Filksinger 
>  
> Mind scan gives the location of the targetted mind and can them be used to target other 
> mental powers as well as tells the egoist the relative location of the target.  Where does 
> it say it gives line of sight on the target? 
>  
 
Unfortunately, while it is clearly intended, it isn't quite stated that way. 
Things which are stated in one part of the book (attacks of various 
sorts) are also stated to be possible with a "Targeting Sense". Thus, 
for purposes of attacks in Hero, a "Targeting Sense" gives "LOS", 
even though there may be no line or sight involved. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 12:40:35 -0500 
From: "Guy Hoyle" <ghoyle1@airmail.net> 
To: badtodd@dacmail.net, champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: A Golden Age Campaign with a Twist 
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On 5/29/98, at 12:28 PM, Todd Hanson wrote:  
>Hmm... if you want to throw a bit of moral dilemma at the PCs...  Let 
>them discover that the 'formula' requires innocent(s) to die.  Either 
>some kind of 'life force' thing, or maybe it requires some small part of 
>the brain that the host can't live without. Hitler's 'death camps' were 
>actually a cover.  All of the people that were killed were used to 
>create Mastermind's supers. 
 
While this is an excellent idea, I think it might make for a somewhat grimmer tone than I'd like to use in a "Golden Age" campaign; perhaps it's enough of a moral dilemma that they must use Mastermind's own research to gain super-powers, knowing that Mastermind sacrificed innocent lives to create the Zarathustra formula. It might be too much to ask for them to sacrifice lives, as well.  (You also have ironies such as the PCs using Mastermind's own formula against him, and thus saving the innocent lives he sacrificed in the first place). 
 
Great ideas! Keep 'em rolling! 
 
Guy 
 
Uncommon Solutions...when you need a better way! 
http://www.uncommonsolutions.com 
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 13:55:21 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: How Complicated Is Champions? 
Cc: "[unknown]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by Bob Greenwade 
>   In TUMA there are a couple hundred weapons; these are handy for those 
who want to just say, "Joe carries a katana," rather than try to build one 
from scratch or from the katana carried by a published character.< 
 
Besides convenience, one would hope that published weapons would be 
somewhat accurate--a little bit of research was done to determine how much 
damage each weapon could do, how much it weighs, or whatever.  I think 
you'd get a lot of different answers if you asked a group of people to all 
go off and design a katana...some would be knowledgeable about a real 
katana, some would be just guessing at values and have no interest in doing 
any research (I would fall in this category, thus, I like to have published 
versions), and some would just jack up the damage as much as possible so 
that it's a "cool" weapon that you would actually want to use in the game 
(my katana is better than your katana!). 
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 17:57:51 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
>  
>  
>  
> Filksinger wrote: 
>  
<snip> 
> > Yes, but the light is not the issue. If you look through binoculars, you see the target. If you look at a television screen, you see a picture of the target that does not necessarily have any connection to the actual location of the target. One tells you where the target is, not only an absolute sense (He is in the Oval Office), but in a relative sense as well (he is to my right, over my head, exactly there). The other does not. 
>  
> Granted, but does not knowing that the target is in the Oval Office give the egoist's mind scan roll no minuses.  Also it the target was on a survaillance camera and the exact location of the area being viewed was well known to the egoist and its relative location to their location then, by your reasoning, the mind scan would not be necessary. 
 
 
That is something I might allow. However, the mentalist's knowledge of the location, the camera, and their relationship to him would have to be very precise. 
 
Thus, if you know where the Oval Office is in relationship to you, such that you could say, "I will teleport X miles, feet, and inches in Y direction" and expect to end up inside of it at a particular spot, and you knew the inside of the Oval Office precisely enough that looking through the camera would tell you exactly where in the Oval Office, _in relation to you_ that they were, then it _might_ be possible. However, the degree of understanding of the target's location necessary is so precise given the distances and variables involved that I might decide that that ability to integrate all of those together constituted a Power, and require that the mentalist buy the power. 
 
After all, how many people who are, say, ten miles or more from the Oval Office right now can tell you how many feet it is to the President's chair? That kind of detail surpasses normal Area Knowlege. 
 
> > 
> > 
> > If I look through binoculars at someone, I know exactly where they are. If I look through a TV screen at someone, I do not. 
> > 
>  
> So you've never lost you sence of distance when using binoculars?  It is a fairly common thing to do, and most people need a second or two reorient themselvs after use binoculars or telescopes. 
 
And thus I might give penalties to a mentalist who used his powers when viewing his target through binoculars. Training, in the form of levels with his power that negated these penalties would allow him to target normally. 
 
> > 
> > My brain is not hooked into the system, so I cannot use the cameras as a Targeting Sense. 
>  
> Your Eyes are the targeting sence, I hope your brain is hooked up to your eyes :) 
 
Of course. And since my eyes can see the screen, I can target the screen. My eyes cannot see the President, they see a picture of the President. Thus, I can target the picture, but not normally the President. 
 
<snip> 
>  
> Niether the camera nor the missile are doing the targetting it the pilot that is doing the targetting.  The camera is giving him a group of targets to shoot at.  The pilot selects a target and then targets the missile.  The computer then does its best to hit the targetted location. 
 
True. You are confusing the military definition of targeting and the definition as used with Targeting Sense in Hero. In Hero, in order to aim a weapon, you need a Targeting Sense, which allows you to aim a weapon based upon the information given. The camera, with its precise relationship to the military man using it, can qualify because of training and the precision involved. Thus, he could possibly, probably with negatives, aim a mental sense with that camera, just as he could look at the camera, lean out the door, and without looking at anything but the video monitor, shoot someone he sees in the monitor with a pistol, but with difficulty (i.e. negatives). 
 
The system as a whole, camera, monitor, missile, and _computer linking them_, is a Targeting Sense _for the missle_, and thus allows the equvallent of LOS for that missile. The knowledge of the user, the camera, the monitor, and the knowlege of the precise relationship of the camera to the user could allow, with negatives, that Targeting Sense to be used with other weapons. 
 
> > If your camera is set up so that a man, walking into the room, can, solely by looking at the screen, aim his super gun and hit a man standing by the camera, then it can be used as a targetting sense. TV does not meet this criteria. You cannot walk into a video store, see a live broadcast on the television, aim your supergun, and expect to hit the reporter hundreds or thousands of miles away. All of your examples are targetting systems, and looking at the monitor you know where the target is. A television camera doesn't meet the criteria. 
> > 
>  
> Given a calculator, map and mussle volicity to accelerant equation, I could do calculate the angles and amount of acceleratn necessary for such a shot.  It's very basic trig.  Given time to prepare set knowns ahead of time and a programmable calculator the shot could be set up in less then a minute.  Of course the advantage of Ego powers is no tragetory knowledge is needed just the relative location of the target. 
 
So, if you walked into a video store, saw Charlton Heston in a live interview on the TV, you could work out a precise tragectory to him using a calculator, a map, detailed knowledge of your weapon, and the proper equations? Interesting. I, in the same situation, wouldn't be able to tell you what continent he was on for certain, and definitely couldn't tell you where he was on a map. 
 
Given sufficient information, you might convince me to allow mental powers through a TV camera. However, you would have to prove that you could, given the information you have, locate the target with precision enough to shoot them, with a weapon no more linked to the camera than your head is. 
 
Of course, if your head _is_ plugged into the camera, all bets are off. That, however, would require you buy powers to simulate this ability. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 14:32:23 -0400 
From: David Stallard <DBStallard@compuserve.com> 
Subject: Re: House Rules (was Re: How Complicated Is Champions?) 
Cc: "\[unknown\]" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
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Message text written by John Desmarais 
>Oh, another house-rules related oddity I've encountered (usually at 
convention games) - people who don't realize that they've been using 
modified rules.  I met many players who never really read the rules 
(to whatever game was in questions at the time) carefully, just 
learned from a GM who had his own set of house rules.  What a disaster 
con-games were, with folks who didn't know the rules but were 
convinced they did.< 
 
I've never played at a con, but I have seen this problem come up when 
people come in from different campaigns or I go into a different campaign.  
I had one player who was always telling me about the house rules that his 
previous group used...I think he was trying to get me to start using them, 
but I found that most of them didn't add anything to the game, they were 
just different than what was published. 
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 20:18:56 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: A Golden Age Campaign with a Twist 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
>  
> Guy Hoyle wrote: 
>  
> > I'll probably have to figure out what exactly the "Zarathustra 
> > Formula" is and what it does. Wonder what the PCs will need to get it 
> > going? Maybe they just don't have the resources to use it themselves 
> > in the future, but the US Government does... Perhaps Mastermind used 
> > Hitler's death-camp experiments to discover the formula, meaning that 
> > 1940s technology is quite capable of producing the Formula. 
>  
> Hmm... if you want to throw a bit of moral dilemma at the PCs...  Let 
> them discover that the 'formula' requires innocent(s) to die.  Either 
> some kind of 'life force' thing, or maybe it requires some small part of 
> the brain that the host can't live without. Hitler's 'death camps' were 
> actually a cover.  All of the people that were killed were used to 
> create Mastermind's supers. 
>  
> Now the PCs have a choice to make.  In order to stop Mastermind, they 
> need superpowers.  Are they willing to sacrifice innocent lives to stop 
> Mastermind and save the future?  Will they attempt to do it with OUT 
> superpowers?  Will they offer to be the 'innocents', and sacrifice their 
> own lives in order to create supers to oppose Mastermind? 
 
Now it begins to sound like "Thor vs. Captain America", by David Brin. In it, the Axis powers are backed up by, and eventually dominated by, the sudden appearance of the Nordic gods on their side. Loki betrays them to the Allies, but refuses to reveal where the "gods" came from. Loki reveals the secret to the hero just before he dies, a secret he dared not tempt the Allies (now just the US) with: 
 
Mass necromancy. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 20:27:41 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Re: Opinion Poll:  Line of Sight 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
> From: Ross Rannells <rossrannells@worldnet.att.net> 
<snip>  
> Line of Soght is not the only way to attack with mental powers.  It's line of 
> sight or a successful Mind Scan, which as someone else stated previously, points 
> to being able to locate the mind of the target.  In HSR  on page 55 it states that 
> Mental powers are not stopped by conventional barriers and goes on to give the 
> N-Ray vision example.  So please explain how a TV is a barrier that you cannot use 
> mental powers through.  There are plenty of legends and SF stories where Telepathy 
> us used through crystal balls, is that not analigous to Mental Powers through a 
> cathode ray tube. 
 
A couple of reasons, actually. 
 
1. You didn't buy Clairvoyance for the television system. It already 
exists, and has certain features that limit it, such as your inability to 
precisely locate the camera in relation to you. If you were to buy 
Clairvoyance (SFX Closed circuit camera), you might choose to take 
such limitations, or choose to spend the points needed to bypass the 
limitations. Either way, as you didn't buy the television network as a 
Power, you must buy a full Power to use it in a fashion thatbypasses 
its limitations. 
 
2. It may require special powers to use Clairvoyance in this fashion. 
Thus, the ability to do this may cost more points than just Clairvoyance. 
 
There is some precident to using Clairvoyance to target Mental 
powers, however. The Mystic Masters book mentions this as a way to 
design astral bodies for super sorcerers, and indicates that you can 
use mental powers. Keep in mind that Clairvoyance is visible, 
however, and your target would know he was being watched unless 
you bought IPE. 
 
Regardless, the lack of knowledge as to precisely where a TV 
camera is in relation to you negates this possibility over a TV. A 
character who actually bought Clairvoyance knows where the view is 
in relation to him, as he declares where he wants to look in order to 
see through it. Television does not tell you where the target is, 
normally. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 13:40:33 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net (Unverified) 
To: fuzion@dour.org 
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> 
Subject: Conversion questions 
Cc: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
In trying to convert some characters to Hero 4th I ran into a few problems. 
Hopefully someone on the list can help.  
 
 
1. How are combat skills (HTH evade, HTH, etc) translated into combat skill 
levels?  
 
2. Fuxion handles killing attacks diffrently (obviously) so the "resistant" 
defense of Fuzion characters has to be much higher. How do you convert it 
over to Hero 4th? I've been dividing it by 3 to get the characters resistant 
and leaving the "normal" defense the same.  
 
EX:A character has 30 KD in Fuzion. In my conversion they'd come out with 30 
Normal and 10 Resistant.  
 
3. Does anyone have any ideas on how to convert the Metamorh-Composition 
power (from Jason Dour's Heroic Abilites plug in) to Hero 4th? 
 
I know violence doesn't solve all problems... 
	But it sure feels good! 
		Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior 
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 13:40:38 -0700 (PDT) 
X-Sender: nexus@uky.campus.mci.net (Unverified) 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
From: Kim Foster <nexus@uky.campus.mci.net> 
Subject: Supplment Reviews 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Has anyone on the list used the Widows and Orphans and Bright Future 
Supplments? Any comments on them?  
I know violence doesn't solve all problems... 
	But it sure feels good! 
		Felicia:DS3:Vampire Savior 
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 21:30:51 
From: Filksinger <filkhero@usa.net> 
To: champ-l@sysabend.org 
Subject: Thor vs. Captain America 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Filksinger wrote: 
 
>Now it begins to sound like "Thor vs. Captain America", by David >Brin. 
 
AAAAHHHHHGGGGG!!!!! 
 
SPOILER! SPOILER! SPOI... Damn. 
 
Sorry. 
 
Filksinger 
 
 
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Subject: Re: Bab 5 Hero: Races; big 4 
Date: Fri, 29 May 98 17:48:26 -0400 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
To: <tstatler@igateway.net&> <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Tim Statler tstatler@igateway.net 5/28/98 9:20 PM 
 
>MIMBARI 
> increased Chr Max: STR 13/23               6 
>                    CON 13/23              12 
>                    BDY 12/22               8 
>                    INT 13/23               6 
>                    EGO 12/22               8 
> Lightsleep talent                          3 
>SUBTOTAL                                              43 
> DF: Mimbari concealable, noticed          -10 
> Watched by Clan, 8-, more pow, NCI        -10 
> Beserk: if drinks alcohol, UNC, 14-, 11-  -20 
>TOTAL                                                  3 
> 
>notes: he Mimbari are considered a tough race. Several times people 
>comment "He's lucky. That would have killed a human.". The Beserk is the 
>best way I could work out their Alcohol problem. And all Mimbari are 
>part of a clan, even Delenn wasn't immune from their censure. 
 
I'm not sure I'd raise the Mimbari INT at all.  They haven't demonstraited 
greater flexability/speed of thought just an increased overall knowledge 
base, which would more properly be a perk of some kind.  Also, while I  
agree 
the base level of EGO needs to be up'ed, even Linner in his earliest  
appearances had a bias re: the superiority of his race, I'm not sure they 
should really have a higher maximum ego than the humans.  I'd most likely 
also add 1 regen at a reduced time step, say 1 per 5 hours.  So 
 
>MIMBARI 
> increased Chr Max: STR 13/23               6 
>                    CON 13/23              12 
>                    BDY 12/22               8 
>                    EGO 12/20               4 
> Lightsleep talent                          3 
  Perk: Enhanced level of Technology         3 
  Regeneration: 1 per 5 hours (-1)           5 
>SUBTOTAL                                              41 
> DF: Mimbari concealable, noticed          -10 
> Watched by Clan, 8-, more pow, NCI        -10 
> Beserk: if drinks alcohol, UNC, 14-, 11-  -20 
 
TOTAL                                                   1 
 
 
> 
>CENTAURI (males must pay cost in parenthesis) 
>(6 xtra limbs, can only lift less than 2 lbs ea(-2), 
>      no fine manipulation (-1/2)           (1)  
 
Londo was palming cards with his, er, _things_.  No fine 
manipulation doesn't really seem to fit.  Cost becomes 2. 
 
Like the Mimbari, they need a tech level perk (@1) and  
WF: Swords (which even Vir can use, _shudder_) 1. 
 
>SUBTOTAL                                            21(23) 
 
> DF: Centauri easy, noticed                 -5 
> Psych Lim: Prejudiced about/against Narns  
>          Com, Mod                         -10 
 
Also: 
Psych Lim: Primary Motivation is Status  
           w/i the Republic/accumulation of  
           political power (Common, Strong/ 
           many are total)                   -15 
 
TOTAL                                                -9/-7 
> 
 
Stats on Humans and Narns are dead on, IMNSHO. 
 
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Subject: Re: Bab 5 Hero: Races; Non-aligned worlds 
Date: Fri, 29 May 98 17:48:29 -0400 
From: John P Weatherman <asahoshi@nr.infi.net> 
To: <tstatler@igateway.net&> <hero-l@sysabend.org> 
Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
Tim Statler tstatler@igateway.net 5/28/98 10:09 PM 
 
>PAK'MA'RA 
>  Pow Def  5pts                         5 
 
Huh?  Seriously, what was this pased on? 
 
>  Discriminatory Smell                  5 
>  +2 to smell perception rolls          4 
 
Given the very strong oder Pak'ma'ra extrude, this 
seems rather unlikely.  As for the three das dead  
thing, more likely a special detect - food 3 days  
dead. 
 
> 
>THE GAIM 
>  increased Chr Max: EGO 12/22                8 
>                     INT 13/23                6 
 
I'm not sure about these.  But the rest is as accurate as anything 
else I've seen... 
 
>DRAZI 
>increased chr max: STR 13/23                 6 
>                   BDY 12/22                 8 
>                   PD  -/10                  2 
>SUBTOTAL                                         16 
> DF: Drazi conceal, noticed                 -10 
> decreased Chr Max: Com 8/18                 -1 
>TOTAL                                             5 
> 
>notes: a poor man's Narn, they are not as physically imposing as the 
>Narn, but almost as tough. 
 
The drazi hurt the most to hit, so I'd make that leathery hid of theirs 
into very low grade PD armor, maybe even 4 points.  Also, I'd give a  
Phych Lim for Drazi Social System (the who green/purple thing) and maybe 
for their near constant enraged state, their worst than narn by a long  
shot. 
 
Just my $0.02. 
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
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Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 29 May 1998 17:50:05 -0400 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
GAZZA  writes: 
 
> In fact, there is the option in heroic games to have extra Running 
> increase the leaping distance. 
 
It is not an option for heroic games, it is a standard rule for all games. 
Half your (current) running velocity adds to your leap distance. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Caution: Happy Fun Ball may suddenly 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ accelerate to dangerous speeds. 
                                    \  
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
X-No-Archive: yes 
X-Attribution: Rat 
Organization: The Happy Fun Ball Brigade 
Date: 29 May 1998 17:50:58 -0400 
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Sender: owner-champ-l@sysabend.org 
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
GAZZA  writes: 
 
> Seems to me that your average athlete isn't going to be getting 
> much out of that Push - +1", or maybe +2 on a good day. 
 
With a 12- Ego roll and a 3, that comes out to 9 active points.  I call 
that a record-setting effort. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
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From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net> 
To: Champions <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Clinging/Climbing 
Mail-Copies-To: never 
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Date: 29 May 1998 17:54:01 -0400 
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
 
GAZZA  writes: 
 
> Running up buildings - 
 
This is a special effect, not a Power. 
 
[...] 
 
> Tough skin (as in "bounces bullets") - 
 
Again, this is a special effect. 
 
Yes, there is frequently more than one way to simulate a particular special 
effect.  But that is a different kettle of fish from using one power to 
simulate another power. 
 
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--  
Rat <ratinox@peorth.gweep.net>    \ Happy Fun Ball may stick to certain types 
PGP Key: at a key server near you! \ of skin. 
                                    \  
 
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Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 16:56:57 -0500 
From: Todd Hanson <badtodd@dacmail.net> 
To: "champ-l@sysabend.org" <champ-l@sysabend.org> 
Subject: Re: Thor vs. Captain America 
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